# I am desperate for your help with my stubborn boy.



## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

Here's my story: 

In march just gone I got my two boys from a pet store (I looked for a breeder I promise but there are not many around where I live, the closest one I found was 4 hours drive away from my house.) 

Anyways I talked to the "rat expert" in the shop and she agreed for me to come to the shop everyday for five days to play with the rats and see who I liked best. 

So I chose Goku and Piccolo. Goku was very curious and crawled all over me every session, whereas Piccolo was very timid, but I saw them sleeping together and went with my heart rather than my brain. At the time I wasn't aware of 'immersion' training but I went through with standard trust training and I thought my results were good. After a couple of days Goku would come when called and climb onto my hands, and after a few weeks he would climb up my arm and give me a kiss and settle in my clothes. Piccolo took some time but after perseverance he comes when called and will climb into my clothes and on my shoulder but he still doesn't like being picked up and will squeak if I do pick him up. 

My boys live in my room with me and after rat proofing it, when Im not at work they can free range in it as they please, with constant access to their cage. Some days they would curl up on my bed some they would stay in their cage. I played games with them and stroked them and gave them all the love and attention I could give. 

Around July Goku was freeroaming around my room and started biting my feet, no blood but he nipped. So I grabbed him and he really bit my finger. Severed a tendon and needless to say blood everywhere. I was so shocked it was so uncharacteristic of him that I dropped him, from probably about half a metre height. I put it down to me surprising him when I picked him up and he just panicked. And subsequently he seemed more wary of me, which I obviously thought was because I dropped him so broke his trust in me. 

By this point I had read about immersion so I thought I'd give it a try, we were locked in the bathroom for 4 hours of him hiding from me and me coaxing him out, he finally came to me and took a treat from my hand and after another hour he was content with being on my knee/in my hands stroking his belly/chin. Everything was fine for a while. 

Then one a few weeks ago day he was free roaming and I leant off my bed to pick something up and out of nowhere (to this day I don't where he came from) He lunged at my hand and took a chunk out of it. And since that day, he has spells where he has attacked me unprovoked and lunged at me if I walk past the cage. 

Sometimes he is as lovely as he was though, he asks to be picked up and climbs on my shoulder. But then an hour later he might bite me. He does not show any warning signs (such as puffing his hair up).

He is not aggressive towards Piccolo in the slightest, Piccolo actually seems to be the more dominant of the two. Piccolo has never shown any signs of aggression towards me. 

It breaks my heart to get Piccolo out and not Goku, to leave him in his cage but I am at a loss at what to do. 

Do I try immersion again? Please if you are reading this and thinking "oh my god what a terrible owner no wonder the rat is aggressive" then help me. I want to learn and change to understand what my rat is telling me. 

I asked my vet for advice and he suggested Goku may of been ill so I brought him in and the vet looked over him and said he was fine.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

It sounds like goku is a dominant rat who is going through his hormonal phase and testing his limits. You have 2 main options. The first is to get him out lots, but I woild suggest not in a free range situation at first. You then need to handle him very firmly, pick him up, ruffle his fur, stroke him firmly all over etc, no gentle strokes. Essentially you are reaffirming your the boss out of the cage, which will actually make him happier, or does with most dominant bucks. You need to be confident to do this, so wearing gloves may help. If he bites pick him up firmly a d say no firmly, the put him down again, and repeat if needed, it needs t our be instant though. The other option, whi h may not be bad long term, is neutering, it carri es s some risks but is also good for there long term health, and is well worth trying in this kind of situation


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## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

I'd like to add that sometimes it really feels like he's trying to reach out to me. He will ask for treats, and ask to be picked up. Yesterday when I was coaxing Piccolo into my jacket Goku came right along and tried climbing in, but I panicked and stopped him, because I am frightened. Sometimes he grabs my finger and sniffs it lots and then pulls it to his chest for me to tickle him or puts his head under my hand and looks at me as it to say "Come on! Stroke me!" but the instant I do start tickling him or stroking him he bites me. And I don't mean nip. I mean bite and draw blood. He has never nipped me, only ever bitten and drawn blood.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

This very much sounds like hes uncertain and got lots of things going on. A hormonal rat is generally a confused one, if you look at it from the rats point of view it may make more sense. Hes a happy chap, boss of his cage with a lovely friendly human, then he starts getting an influx of hormones, these start making him feel that it is massively important that he be in control of every situation, after all that way he will have the best chance of siring babies. In the cage its fine, his cage mate is very submissive and knows his place, his cage is also nice and small and familier, he feels secure in his dominance there, he can effectively control that area well with little effort. However it all gets a lot more complicated with his human, she is clearly not a rat, however she is someone he cares about and has an impact on his world. Sometimes she picks him up, plays with him etc, sometimes gentley strokes. None of these tell him wether he is your boss or you are his, and knowing his place in the world is massively important to his happiness and wellbeing. His hormones are making this even more important to resolve. This is especially true outside the cage, this is a lot bigger space, it doesnt smell so much of him and he has that much bigger world to control, meaning he is more tense, stressed and liable to make bad decisions. He clearly likes you, he wants affection but when you approach he switches into dominant mode and thinks that he needs to proove hes boss, your not a rat so he lashes out and bites, rather than flipping and pinning. You retreat so he wins that encounter, and yet next time you approach him tbe same way, probably from higher up, which is a dominant position, 2ithout showing you believe he is boss, so he has to repeat the offensive.

At the end of the day our rats are wild animals who have been bred to be more friendly and get used to humans, they are still wild under there. This is especially true of rats not bred for temprement such as petshop rats and feeders, they are often bred with no regard for the size and controllability of the hormonal surge. If levels are too high even a lovely rat gets pushed firmly into his instinctive reactions. You can select away from this when breeding but this isnt something you can do as a feeder breeder or a petshop, not that I think they woukd want to anyway.

That reallu explains my options I gave before, your choices are to take out the hormonal surge, by neutering him, or to speak the ratty equivalent of dominant more effectively, so that he is content in your position in his world. As the presence of a more dominant rat in the heirachy can artifically surpress hormone surges in other bucks ive found that bucks with a strong firm owner are far less likley to have hormonal problems later too. I will say though that this doesnt always work, a strong enough surge can still overwhelme a settled heirachy.

Hope that makes more sense to you.


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## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

Thankyou for the reply! On sunday when I have the whole day free with him, I will try immersion with him again, and I will be aggressive and firm with him and see if he gets the picture.... They are both my first rats but already they have taught me so much!


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## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

as a last resort a neuter would help curb the hormones. after trying to handle him again sunday you will see how he interacts. is it only picking him up normally? carrier tube box etc train him, he goes in you hold it up to the cage/playarea etc...it becomes his method of transport. (we call it fire training here. if there were a fire they should all hop quickly into the carrier) every time he gets his reward, to go out it is positive reinforcement. when he goes back to the cage give him a good boy treat. use your positive interactions w/his cagemate to win him over too, seeing you two play together he wants to join in as much as he can. he may have triggers but time w/him will teach you them&you can decide how you want to handle that(break the habit vrs avoidance) good luck. keep us posted


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Try not to be aggressive, it's not needed, a lot is about mental attitude. When you handle him know you are the boss and you will find your self handling him more confidently. Ive never needed to scare or be overly rough with my boys yet I can pick up even other people's dominant Bucks and they love me from the way I handle them, if you get it right your boy should enjoy it once he gets used to it


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In immersion, you always want to be friendly and accommodating... BUT you are not a rat treat, you are his alpha human. I prefer swift and severe over lots of little reminders that he is being bad. Rat learn that when bad things happen because they do something, they don't do that same thing again. Remember he's a small animal and there's a fine line between swift and severe and animal abuse. Don't be afraid to armor up and wear heavy oven mitts etc. 

Once a rat realizes it isn't the alpha his hormones usually return to normal.

Best luck


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## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

Immersion has started! We have been in the bathroom aprox 20 minutes. 

When we came in I sat down and he instantly jumped onto my knee and stayed there for about 5 minutes I gave him a few scritches but mainly let him settle then he explored the bathroom but kept coming back onto my knee to preen. 

Then we had our first bust up, I was stroking his side when he attacked my hand so I retaliated (something Ive never done) He didnt submit but he relented and then climbed up onto my knee and preened for a good minute. As I was typing this he climbed onto my laptop and when I picked him up he squeaked. If anyone has any tips I'd appreciate it. Ill update this post as I go along.


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## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

Another couple of bust ups but nothing too serious, I pinned him down, (not on his back) and he stopped frantically biting my hand (I have gloves on). He hasn't rolled onto his back but now when I touch him and "Power groom" him he doesn't bite. (Or at least he hasn't bitten for the past ten minute. 

He was sat about half a meter across from me and everytime I kept calling his name and patting my knees he just bruxed at me, his eyes were popping out too which I've never seen is that good? Now that Im typing he's started preening himself. XD


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's 7 AM and I'm about off to sleep for a few hours... just finished a project. But in any case it sounds like you are off to a good start, the biting is your first issue. Always treat it aggressively. Otherwise be friendly and reward nice behavior and try to have some fun, as best as you can. I realize it seems awkward to communicate with a rat or anyone else that doesn't talk back or even realize what you are doing, but as soon as he gets it, things will change and you will have more of a dialogue and things will get better and everything will make more sense to both of you. Fight, play or whatever you only make progress when you are engaged or he is preen-thinking about you engaging him. Sitting at opposite ends of the room doesn't hurt anything but it isn't progress.

Remember to be careful and protect yourself if he turns on you. But biting rats aren't pets so this immersion is life or death to your rat.

Bruxing, eye boggling, preening, napping on you, or friendly play usually means that a rat is beginning to understand and recognize you as another sentient being. Most rats are genuinely happy to find out that you are another thinking creature like themselves and that you are reaching out to them. So I generally take any change in behavior as a good sign. Even when things get temporarily worse, change is good. 

Think of it like being in quicksand, it really doesn't matter what you pull yourself out onto or who pulls you out... it's still better than quicksand and you are one step closer to home.
Keep up the good work, be patient and best luck.


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## Kaeguri (Sep 26, 2013)

After 1h 40mins I have ended the session prematurely. I didn't want to because I believe we were making real progress, however I picked him up and flipped him over and stroked his chest/belly and he seemed to enjoy it (went limp in my hands) but further down between his back legs there's a lump and when I touched it and gently pressed it he jumped and squeaked and squirmed to get out of my hands, and really panicked when I tried picking him up again. So I'm going to get him to the vets ASAP and hopefully I'm just blowing things out of proportion and its nothing serious. He's only young and it's the first time I've noticed anything like that that and as far as I know he's eating and drinking as normal.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If you have a vet that's open on Sunday, I suppose going there would be a good idea, if not stay with the immersion... if you have made so much progress I'd bring it home with some snuggle time to reinforce the bond you were building and then do as much together time as you can afterwards through the day. Just be careful of his sore spot. Don't let a problem you can't fix today get in the way of one you can.


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