# My rat is a bit fat



## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

My rat has gained quite a bit of weight, she is a bit over 2 years old.
She is much bigger than her cagemates lol.
She used to run in her wheel and climb all the time in her old cage.
but after i moved her and her cagemates to a bigger critternation cage,
I never see her running anymore. And she mostly sleeps, lays around and eats now.
I have been busy with working two jobs so I havent been taking them out for playtime as much.
But I just started trying to take them all out to play for at least 30minutes a day. 

Anyways, I'm just wondering if there is anything i can do to help her lose a little weight.

I included a few pictures of her.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

Here's two more pictures wasnt sure if the others are good enough in showing her size. 
she used to be regular sized but idk what happened, she just started getting kinda fat. 

View attachment 10716
View attachment 10717


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## SillydogTheGreat (Mar 27, 2012)

Why does she look so wet?


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah, she looks really wet and fur appears puffed out. Does she always look so puffy? I agree she is large, and the hair quality could just be an age issue...but she just looks awfully puffed out.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Can you give a detailed description of her diet?


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Can you give a detailed description of her diet?


I made them their custom mix with the "Suebee's diet", since i know store foods arent good for them.
I used to give veggies and fruits, but i havent done that in awhile. And I dont give her treats anymore either.
When one of my rats (lily) was sick and really skinny, I was giving her some baby food, and i would give the other rats a little bit too as a treat.
but since the sick one passed I havent given them any.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

gal5150 said:


> Yeah, she looks really wet and fur appears puffed out. Does she always look so puffy? I agree she is large, and the hair quality could just be an age issue...but she just looks awfully puffed out.


I'm not sure why she looks wet, she grooms herself a lot, and she gets groomed sometimes, but I dont think thats the reason she looks wet.
and her fur isnt as soft as it was when I first got her, it feels a little more coarse. (not as soft as my youngest and other ratty).
And I dont think she looks puffy all the time.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I would say she is either having Major bowl issues, which is normal for some older rats to get, or she is mal-nurished.

The Suebee's diet needs to be supplemented with a lab block. I would buy a good quality lab block (Oxbox or Harlen Tekan) and see if that will help. If after a few days she starts to seem better start to give her more fruits and vegetables (They contain a high amount of nutrients rats need). I like to do 95% Fresh foods with 5% to 10% Lab blocks just for back up (Though they actually eat it before a lot of other foods, they don't store it at all, I've checked everywhere, I use Oxbox btw)

Coarse fur, especially on a female, normally signals mal-nutrition or that something major is wrong.

I'm not 100% sure it is mal-nutrition but I know in humans, mal-nutrition causes bloat, and it could just be bloat from an unknown issue, but with the diet you've given I want to go with mal-nutrition (this isn't to be mean, btw. Sorry some people when they hear stuff like this get upset).

Not sure about why she looks wet, could be related, but not sure.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

LightningWolf said:


> I would say she is either having Major bowl issues, which is normal for some older rats to get, or she is mal-nurished.
> 
> The Suebee's diet needs to be supplemented with a lab block. I would buy a good quality lab block (Oxbox or Harlen Tekan) and see if that will help. If after a few days she starts to seem better start to give her more fruits and vegetables (They contain a high amount of nutrients rats need). I like to do 95% Fresh foods with 5% to 10% Lab blocks just for back up (Though they actually eat it before a lot of other foods, they don't store it at all, I've checked everywhere, I use Oxbox btw)
> 
> ...


should i switch out the food they have now and just use the lab blocks? or just add some to the mix?


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I would maybe for a day or two give them only lab blocks then add the mix back in, just to ensure they eat the lab blocks. (once again, I'm not sure it is mal-nutrition, but it looks like it).


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

LightningWolf said:


> I would maybe for a day or two give them only lab blocks then add the mix back in, just to ensure they eat the lab blocks. (once again, I'm not sure it is mal-nutrition, but it looks like it).


kay I'll run to the store tomorrow to pick up some just to be safe.
I know they do like lab blocks since theyve had it before. but I made the mix and put the dog food they recommend in it, but they dont really like the dog food. 
they usually leave it for last :T so it probably is malnutrition like you said.
how long do you think it will take for there to be an improvement.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

The problem here is most assuredly the Suebee's mix. It is not an appropriate diet for rats and I do not even recommend it as a supplement to blocks. It is too full of processed junk, sugars, fats, and salt. It's basically snack mix for rats.

If you are after convenience, go for a block diet like Oxbow and supplement with specific fresh foods (http://ratsnacksnstuff.weebly.com/recipes-n-stuff.html) and a grain mix with less processing. You can buy these or make some yourself by following a good recipe. If interested, I can dig one up for you.

Your other option is to omit blocks and go for a fresh diet like I do. This is complicated to do yourself as the nutrients must be balanced.

I'd start with a bag of Oxbow and go from there.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

That kind of thinning long coat tends to be caused by a few things, can I ask how old she is?

From my experience its normally down to one of the following (but bear in mind theres other less common posibilities and illness);
*protien imbalance – this can be too much or too little, if your using a high protien dog kibble alongside subee’s mix in equal portions I would suggest it is too much possibly (especially with the amount of sunflower seeds). I do use dog kibble in my home made mix but it’s typically 5% if that (I like to use a few options for protien). If your using lab blocks it may be that the diet is too low in protien, the grain mix looks to by typically low in protien (especially if you don’t feed the soya nuts) and will act as a dilution on the lab blocks. If these lab blocks only contain 14% protien and the grain mix is lower than this (which it feels very much like it will be) then the overall protien will be much lower. Typical symptoms of too little protien is the shedding and renewal cycle for the hairs slowing down, this means the hairs are all older, and so longer, scruffy and coarser. New hair is shiny, short and soft (the head generally has the youngest hair on it as it’s life is shorter than the bum hair which always looks the worst). Normally I would expect her tail cross section to look a little square, though given her overall weight this could be hidden by fat rather than muscle. I would also expect a rat that is short on protien to have poor body tone and be very squishy. A rat with too much protien tends to get similar to one with kidney issues in terms of fur, it goes thin and whispy, often with dry or itchy skin.

*Allergy or intollerance to a specific type of protien – sunflower seeds are one of those items which do crop up occasionally in rats as an allergy/intollerance, it tends to give them very itchy skin and you do sometimes get the thinning fur with it.

*Kidney issues – this kind of ‘old’ coat is something I see a lot in rats beginning to show signs of kidney degeneration, the hair appears thin and fluffy as above, they often loose body tone, appear to drink more (which can lead to bloating) but often also begin to loose weight in the later stages. If you suspect this get her urine tested for excess protien, this is a sign she may have kidney failure and needs to move to a kidney friendly diet.

*Lack of micronutrient (these aer vitamins and minerals), this can happen in any diet and for a number of reasons. Sometimes it’s to do with how much they eat (as metnioned in the protien section eat too much of one thing and you can overly dilute other things). Micronutrients are often particularly hard to track as they vary a lot in there content in food stuffs, all you see on the box is an indication of the major ones, there’s a whole host of others that can really matter. Take copper, it has a lot to do with how pigment forms as well as other bits and bobs, a copper deficient rat will have very see through hair that will often occur first around the eyes, they may also be rusty (turn brown ish)

*lack of fat in the diet – given her weight you may find this unlikley, but dietry fat is not the main cause of a fat rat, too many calories are. Rats who are definicient in fat tend to be deficient in Omega 3 or 6 (or both) fats. These are really important to how they grow and develop as well as being really good for joints and such. Topping them up with a few drops of linseed or flaxseed oil every week is really helpful (especially if they also have kidney issues). It’s actually easy for a home made mix to be deficient in good fat, as we tend to avoid fatty foods, I’ve been there before. Saying that there are a fair few sunflower seeds in that mix so unless she doesn’t like them it is unlikley.

*Weight – one thing I have found is that often a rat who is overweight also struggles to have good coat condition, pulling there weight back into balance, controlling what they eat and upping exercise often improves this no end. I think if you mess with the diet and there’s no improvement in a week or two

She does look overweight either way, and along with tackling her coat issues theres actually a lot you can do to diet rats effectively. I’ve been there in the past and I know it’s particularly hard with a healthy sized rat or rats and 1 or 2 fat ones. Heres the kind of stages I would recommend going through, they all can help on there own, but pulling it all togetrher can make a real difference.

1, The first step is to reduce the amount of food on offer, only offer what can be eaten in a 20 hour period (so they have at least 4 hours with no food in the bowl). If they eat everything fast, reduce it until it’s a small enough amount that she begins to loose weight. My boys are so efficient with there food they will have eaten most of it in about 20 minutes, so most of the day they have very little to eat (any more and they get fat).
2, Take her out for the first 15 minutes of food going in, this gives her cagemate time to get a head start.
3, In this period get her running around, ideally up the stairs, climbing the outside of the cage, chasing a feather wand etc. The more active she is the better, if she has been really active then put her back in the cage, if she’s slow encourage her to do something so many times then she can go back in. This teaches her once she’s done so much she gets food and will speed her up. With one of my boys I had him climb up the front of the cage from the floor, the first time he did it once and got to go in, next day twice, a few days later 3 times. In the end he would race up the cage from anywhere in the room really fast at least 6 times, then get his dinner. He was very fit by the end of it.
4,Consider scatter feeding over using a bowl, this involves scattering the food around the cage (and does work better with a grain based mix than lab blocks), this encourages them to be more active hunting for food, and also helps reward those rats that are naturally most active, normally the slimmest. It’s also not possible for them to hog the food bowl. I’ve scatter fed for years now and wouldn’t go back to a bowl, the rats love it. My recent litter was scatter feeding from 2.5 weeks when they first tried food
5, Look into altering the diet a little, Subee’s mix is full of very processed foods, processed foods are far easier for the animal to eat and digest. I personally favour grains as close to there natural state as possible, in part as it keeps them working and thinking, but also it slows down the speed of eating and makes the nutrients less availble to them. Using rolled oats in there husk for instance over those sold for humans really can work. Paddy rice (brown rice in it’s husk) over puffed rice (honestly even human grade brown rice is better) and so on. There’s also potential for a fair amount of sugar in there (depending on the cereals used), this is easiest digested carb and turns into fat easily. 
6, Look to your cage set up, get rid of any ramps, tubes or easy ways to get around, make sure theres a good amount of space between objects to encourage climbing and have there fave sleeping place, food and water as far apart as possible, this will help encourage activity. Lots or ropes, branches, digging opertunities, basically an adventurous place to encourage activity. A wheel can be good if they use it.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

@Isamurat: She is a bit over 2 years old, maybe 2 and a half.
I got her when I was working at petsmart, she was in the "sick/Isolation room" for a few months so I dont know her exact age.
I just know I've had her for a little over 2 years. 

I noticed they dont really eat the kibble unless its the last thing, so she may not be getting the protein she needs then.
So I'll try and switch it out for lab blocks for a bit. 
And I never thought to really limit the food.. I have 3 girls (used to be 4) and I always just filled the bowl all the way.
which would last them all anywhere for a day - 2 days. 

I'll try to just fill it halfway and see how that works, and I'll also try "scattering" a little bit of the food mix.
Where can I get the unprocessed foods, and would I just make a new batch of food? or can I still give them the old mix but limited.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> The problem here is most assuredly the Suebee's mix. It is not an appropriate diet for rats and I do not even recommend it as a supplement to blocks. It is too full of processed junk, sugars, fats, and salt. It's basically snack mix for rats.
> 
> If you are after convenience, go for a block diet like Oxbow and supplement with specific fresh foods (http://ratsnacksnstuff.weebly.com/recipes-n-stuff.html) and a grain mix with less processing. You can buy these or make some yourself by following a good recipe. If interested, I can dig one up for you.
> 
> ...


 Ah, see I though the Suebees diet was good for rats  
I knew that store food was bad for them, so I was looking up how to make them their own mixes, and I saw a lot of people recommended it. 
I would love if you could help me make them a better mix, I just want her nice and healthy.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Try searching for the shunamite diet. It's a really good set of guidelines for creating your own mix. It may need a little adapting but is well worth looking at. If you need any help yell. I have been feeding my own mix which is very much part of the same family for quite a few years now.

If she's 2 be careful on the protein you use, a little egg is probably the best. At that age there kidneys can be struggling.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

pipsqueak said:


> Ah, see I though the Suebees diet was good for rats
> I knew that store food was bad for them, so I was looking up how to make them their own mixes, and I saw a lot of people recommended it.
> I would love if you could help me make them a better mix, I just want her nice and healthy.


Suebee's is really no good for rats, sadly. It is a bit outdated. We learn new things every day about our rats and diets evolve quickly. Suebee's is really only suitable as an occasional treat.

I'll link you to a mix recipe that a member here uses. Her name is Shawna, though she hasn't posted in a while. Keep in mind that this mix is only suitable as a supplement to blocks, like Oxbow. It cannot be used by itself as a diet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38XjM0-Zj2s


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Suebee's is really no good for rats, sadly. It is a bit outdated. We learn new things every day about our rats and diets evolve quickly. Suebee's is really only suitable as an occasional treat.
> 
> I'll link you to a mix recipe that a member here uses. Her name is Shawna, though she hasn't posted in a while. Keep in mind that this mix is only suitable as a supplement to blocks, like Oxbow. It cannot be used by itself as a diet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38XjM0-Zj2s


so in addition to a mix, should i do the little "fresh salad" thing you linked me? 
I just want my babies healthy and happy.
I had no clue suebees isnt that great for them.


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## aang (Feb 7, 2012)

my rats wont eat anything out of the rat whisperer's diet except the cereals, the oats, and the pumpkin seeds...
@cagedbirdsinging - when it says 'mixed vegetables' and 'mixed fruits,' what fruits & vegetables is it that you recommend/use? I like the sound of that all fresh diet, because I've been using Suebee's and I've always thought it looked a bit fatty - its primarily cereals. just my luck, i went to the store today and bought new food for the suebee's mix -.- i'll have to go back and get the fresh fruits and veggies.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

Am I still able to feed them the suebees diet in moderation?
I just have a few more containers of the mix left, and I really dont want to let it go to waste :T


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## YellowSpork (Jul 7, 2012)

Oh, I use Shawna's mix as a supplement and my rats love it!  As long as there's a health/natural food store by you, it's easy to get all the ingredients.  Most people feed fresh foods daily along with their blocks, so I'd start doing that! The rats love it, and it gives them lots of good unprocessed nutrients. ^_^


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

YellowSpork said:


> Oh, I use Shawna's mix as a supplement and my rats love it!  As long as there's a health/natural food store by you, it's easy to get all the ingredients.  Most people feed fresh foods daily along with their blocks, so I'd start doing that! The rats love it, and it gives them lots of good unprocessed nutrients. ^_^


lucky me there is a health food store about 5 minutes down the road  
I'll try and get veggies tomorrow, Im a bit broke atm though D:


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

aang said:


> my rats wont eat anything out of the rat whisperer's diet except the cereals, the oats, and the pumpkin seeds...
> @cagedbirdsinging - when it says 'mixed vegetables' and 'mixed fruits,' what fruits & vegetables is it that you recommend/use? I like the sound of that all fresh diet, because I've been using Suebee's and I've always thought it looked a bit fatty - its primarily cereals. just my luck, i went to the store today and bought new food for the suebee's mix -.- i'll have to go back and get the fresh fruits and veggies.


When rat get spoiled on Suebee's, it can take a a bit for them to get used to good whole grains rather than the processed grains in Suebee's. Rats that are stubborn about eating certain ingredients in a healthy mix greatly benefit from a strict feeding method that I and several others employ. They get a very certain amount (this varies from rat to rat) each day that leaves them with only enough for 18-20 hours of food. If they're hungry, they need to eat what's there. It's a lot like feeding stubborn children.

When I say mixed vegetables and mixed berries in my recipe, I just mean your standard grocer's freezer fare. If you go to the frozen section, chances are you will see bags labeled "mixed vegetables". You may see fancy mixes that contain a more varied mix. You can use all of these. They are in the recipe for variety, mainly, since the other ingredients are where they get what they really need. The same thing goes with the mixed berries. You should be able to find a bag that has something like blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, and strawberries.



pipsqueak said:


> Am I still able to feed them the suebees diet in moderation?
> I just have a few more containers of the mix left, and I really dont want to let it go to waste :T


Yes, it will be fine as a treat. I'd say about a handful a week. If you have a lot, you can store it in the freezer so it doesn't go bad.



YellowSpork said:


> Oh, I use Shawna's mix as a supplement and my rats love it!  As long as there's a health/natural food store by you, it's easy to get all the ingredients.  Most people feed fresh foods daily along with their blocks, so I'd start doing that! The rats love it, and it gives them lots of good unprocessed nutrients. ^_^


Since it is just a supplement, the recipe is very flexible and things can be switched out according to rattie tastes and local availability. It's one of the nicer recipes you will find on the web.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> When rat get spoiled on Suebee's, it can take a a bit for them to get used to good whole grains rather than the processed grains in Suebee's. Rats that are stubborn about eating certain ingredients in a healthy mix greatly benefit from a strict feeding method that I and several others employ. They get a very certain amount (this varies from rat to rat) each day that leaves them with only enough for 18-20 hours of food. If they're hungry, they need to eat what's there. It's a lot like feeding stubborn children.
> 
> When I say mixed vegetables and mixed berries in my recipe, I just mean your standard grocer's freezer fare. If you go to the frozen section, chances are you will see bags labeled "mixed vegetables". You may see fancy mixes that contain a more varied mix. You can use all of these. They are in the recipe for variety, mainly, since the other ingredients are where they get what they really need. The same thing goes with the mixed berries. You should be able to find a bag that has something like blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, and strawberries.
> 
> ...


ah okay good, i just really dont want to let what i have left go to waste >_< 
would the stuff for your dry mix all be found at a health food store?


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## EndlessDream (Jul 9, 2012)

I found these charts about which fruits and vegetables have good calcium/phosphorus ratios, and which don't. It's from a vet that specializes in exotic animals like rats. So the first table with veggies and fruits like leeks, lettuce, and raspberries are the best.


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## aang (Feb 7, 2012)

thank you, cagedbirdsinging! youre a ratty guru <3


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

Dizzy just passed away a few minutes ago..
she seemed fine earlier today when i opened the cage door to pet her.
i took a nap, and ate dinner, and walked by the cage, and she was laying on the ground next to the ramp.
I got worried and picked her up, and she seemed limp (didnt move around much when i held her)
but was still breathing, I cuddled her and told her how much i loved her. and layed with her for almost an hour.
then she started moving around and so i thought she was feeling better, so i put her back in the cage.
and maybe 10 minutes passed by, and i walked past the cage and saw she wasnt moving at all..

i feel so terrible.. i miss her so much already.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss, but glad for the time that you spent together. You cared so much and she knew that.

Sleep well, little Dizzy.


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## pipsqueak (Sep 5, 2011)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> I am so sorry for your loss, but glad for the time that you spent together. You cared so much and she knew that.
> 
> Sleep well, little Dizzy.


thank you <3 
im going to miss her alot, she was my first ratty.


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## shawnalaufer (Aug 21, 2011)

Aang- have you purchased from me before? 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

EndlessDream said:


> I found these charts about which fruits and vegetables have good calcium/phosphorus ratios, and which don't. It's from a vet that specializes in exotic animals like rats. So the first table with veggies and fruits like leeks, lettuce, and raspberries are the best.


I wouldnt feed rats much if any lettuce, its not good for them and can cause diahorria, picking certain types can help such as romaine. In rats, especially in adults too much phospherous can cause them a lot of problema, so you are better feeding them veg from the high calcium to phospherous section. Really though feeding a mix is ideal, I aim for about hald dark green leafy, about a quarter colourful, then the rest bits and boba including some berries and cocounut.

Sorry about loosing dizzy pip squeak, big hugs


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