# Lunging and Biting



## veggiesaurus (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi everyone - first of all, I want to apologize for joining the forum and immediately asking for advice. I do plan on sticking around as I'm sure this site is a wealth of information. As it turns out, I've recently had an "event" with my rat and I really need someone with experience to tell me what to do. First, the backstory (sorry, this will be a little long-winded):

My family has been thinking about getting rats for awhile, and this weekend we happened upon a 5 month old boy at Petsmart. He was quickly outgrowing the tank they had him in so they were offering him up for adoption for free. Obviously the $11 savings wasn't the draw because we easily spent $150 just picking up supplies and a cage! He seemed very sweet and we felt bad for him so we brought him home. I held him in the store and he was very curious and seemed okay with me. His littermate, who I've been told he shared a tank with and cuddled with, had scratched his eye a few days beforehand and was "in the back" while it healed. There is a Banfield vet hospital attached to this Petsmart so he was under the treatment of a veterinarian and I was told that his eye was looking better and he'd probably be available for adoption in about a week (side note: I went to ask about him yesterday and now they're saying a week from Tuesday, because they put him on some preventative meds, I guess to ward off any infection). We went ahead and brought the first boy home (Jake - his brother will be Finn) on Saturday because I figured if he was going to be alone, he might as well be in a bigger cage than what he was dealing with at Petsmart. So right now we only have the one rat, which I know is part of the issue. I realize now that the fact that he spent months in a tiny tank at the pet store with little human interaction is not working in his favor. I fear that this was probably not a good scenario for first time rat owners, but here we are and I'm not willing to admit defeat. 

So, we bring Jake home on Saturday and pretty much don't him for a few days. We would open his cage to switch out his food bowls and drop in some Cheerios but didn't want to push him. He is in my 10 year old son's room - we have a large dog and a cat who are very well behaved but also very "in your face" so having him out in the "main drag" of the house would not be a good idea. When we approach his cage (multiple times throughout the day) we talk to him in a high, soothing voice, open the door and put a Cheerio by the entrance to his Igloo or sometimes on the second level by one of his bowls. We have the Petco Rat Manor and the Igloo is on the bottom level with the entrance facing the door so that he can keep an eye on his when he's in there. The first few days he seemed mildly curious about us and would sometimes come to the door when I opened it. I offered the back of my finger to him and he would sniff it a little and go on about his business. When we was out of his igloo he would sniff us through the cage. The past few days we sectioned off an area of the room and put his cage on the floor with the door open for about 20 minutes. We sat in the area with him and the first day he ventured out a little bit - at one point he had all four feet on the bedroom floor, but he always returned right back to the cage, sometimes walking up and down the stairs to sniff around (he doesn't seem to be doing a ton of exploring otherwise, he spends most of his time in his Igloo). We were so happy! That first day I was able to move his igloo to the other side of the cage and scoop out his old bedding while he peeked through a little crack under the side of the igloo, watching me with his little nose sniffing the air. Then I moved it to the other side and did the same. The next day he wasn't quite as adventurous, but he did venture out a little. The third day he seemed even more timid than the second but he did come to the door a few times. I'm okay with this progress, assuming this is the right thing to do. 

Now, on to the biting! The first bite was a freebie because I know that I messed up big time. He was sitting in his igloo, watching me, and I was talking to him soothingly while placing a Cheerio in the cage. I put it down by the entrance to his igloo, then (not thinking!) I picked it back up and tried to scoot it a little farther into the entrance - this is when he lunged at me and bit my fingertip. Ouch! I didn't yell but did pull my hand out quickly. Honestly, I deserved to be bit and was not upset by it at all, beyond the fact that it hurt really bad and bled like crazy. This was on Sunday, and since then he has occasionally come to the door when I come into the room - I'll open it and offer the back of my finger and he sniffs as stated above. This afternoon I went into the room and he was out and about so I sat next to the cage and talked to him. He didn't rush back into his igloo so I opened the door and offered the back of my finger to him (I should say that I never shove my finger in his face - I always keep it a few inches away, right by the bottom of the cage opening so that he has the choice to approach me or retreat. It is possible that my finger was a little closer to him than normal because he was sitting right by the door, but I did not approach him with my finger). Well, that little bugger lunged and bit the CRAP out of me. He got the front and back of my finger and 3 hours later it still hurts like crazy. Just like the first time he bit me, he broke the skin pretty good and it bled for awhile. Again, I didn't shout but I did pull my hand away quickly and shut the door calmly. Even then he just sat there and watched me, he didn't retreat to his igloo. 

I feel like we've taken 2 steps forward and 3 steps back. I was hoping to at least get Jake used to us before we brought Finn home, but is it just fighting an uphill battle since he's alone? Am I moving to be fast?

I'm prepared to be patient but I have to be honest - I'm a little discouraged and really don't know what the next step should be. I know that he's afraid, but what do I do about it?


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

http://ratplanet.0catch.com/biteandtrust.htm That might help you -- I also have learned through reading several threads here that it's always good to follow up a nip or a bite with a strong "negative reinforcement" reaction -- be it a vocal 'NO!!' or a dominance pin. It sounds like he bit you out of fear, not just aggression -- I am sure he is still learning and isn't aware that you are there to love and care for him -- especially if he came from a store where socialization is not the first of their concerns. He may have just been startled by your sudden movement and thought his only option was to sink into your finger. I've heard with rats like this that it might be good to do a little forced socialization; my favorite trick is sitting somewhere where they can't necessarily get away from my presence (a very small room or a bathtub works perfectly) and then they are forced to interact with me. They soon learn if they crawl on my shoulder or hand they get treats and then are transported to their cage -- saved! Either way, maybe when you get his brother he will feel less isolated and alarmed, and the behavior may dissipate. I would not let his behavior deter you from paying attention to him -- he has to learn to accept you and your touch. Also, late, but welcome to the forum! I've only posted here a few times myself


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## veggiesaurus (Oct 4, 2012)

Thank you for the link! I will sit down and read it this evening. I did read the Trust Training sticky and will be trying the forced socialization in the bathtub in a few minutes. Currently my shy boy has decided that his veggie bowl makes an awesome spot to hang out. Before this spectacle he didn't spend any considerable amount of time outside of his igloo.


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

Oooh he is handsome! I hope the tub trick works for you as well as it's worked for me in the past! One thing I forgot to mention that the link I posted does is that in the early stages of trust training, sometimes it's better not to use 'negative reinforcement' as that can make them think you are trying to hurt them again -- so it might be a little bit of a tossup and you may have to use your own discretion on the matter. It looks like he's feeling a little more confident with himself, given he is out of his secure igloo and on the second floor!

I've found that rats and horses respond very similarly to certain techniques of training -- that is, never approach from behind, always speak your intentions, and move deliberately, not suddenly -- as this can alarm them. Maybe if you talk to him before you approach him and pick him up he might respond better? He may have just been unsettled. Also, the way to a horse's heart is through his mouth as well. (;


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Oh dear, where to start. I suppose I'll begin by confirming your instinct that this was not a great choice as a family pet for first time rat owners. You're dealing with an unsocialized male in the throws of social maturity...aka testosterone fest. I don't believe that its admitting defeat to admit that an animal is not the right fit for your family. I think it can be the most difficult, but wise choice one can make. That said, if you plan to move forward with your guy please do not flip him on his back and dominate him. He appears to be biting for three reasons....none of which are dominance. 1) he's unsocialized 2) he's terrified 3) thus far your hand is primarily associated with cheerios. A scared rat desperately wanting a goodie will do the lunge and grab with inappropriate pressure. So, socialization. This is a case where gentle forced socialization will be necessary, in my opinion. 20 minute minimum sessions, at least twice a day of rat in direct contact with your person. This can be in the bath tub or in between a sweatshirt and your shirt. You can pet, but dont have to in the beginning, but the overall goal should be hands on with no ability for the rat to avoid you. Free range time doesn't count, this must be direct contact the whole time. If you are unable to pick him up, put a nesting box (can be a tissue box, etc) in his cage and pick it up with him in it for these sessions. Also, you'll need to start doing things in the cage like ch angling bedding, etc without treating each time to break the hand=food connection. Also, I want to prepare you for the possibility of problems with reuniting the brothers. If they have been separated for a few weeks it is possible that they will need to go through a formal introduction process as if they were strangers....as that may be how they see it. 
Lastly, I'm sure this goes without saying but I'd feel remiss if I didn't..no handling by children until you have this guy squared away and trust worthy. The last thing we want is your son's first experience with rats to be a terrifying and painful one. Is your guy the worst case...no. Is he pretty close to the worst case for a first time rat owner and family pet...he may be. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I don't think I'd be doing you, your family, or the rat any favors by mincing words. Good luck and keep us posted. PM me is you need support, and keep throwing questions out here. You're in for quite a process.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

I want to clarify the statement that Jake may be the worst case for a first time owner/family. I am basing this on the intensity of the bites, drawing blood both times. I also wanted to reiterate that myself and the whole forum are here for you, whatever choices you make.


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## veggiesaurus (Oct 4, 2012)

gal5150 said:


> Oh dear, where to start. I suppose I'll begin by confirming your instinct that this was not a great choice as a family pet for first time rat owners. You're dealing with an unsocialized male in the throws of social maturity...aka testosterone fest. I don't believe that its admitting defeat to admit that an animal is not the right fit for your family. I think it can be the most difficult, but wise choice one can make. That said, if you plan to move forward with your guy please do not flip him on his back and dominate him. He appears to be biting for three reasons....none of which are dominance. 1) he's unsocialized 2) he's terrified 3) thus far your hand is primarily associated with cheerios. A scared rat desperately wanting a goodie will do the lunge and grab with inappropriate pressure. So, socialization. This is a case where gentle forced socialization will be necessary, in my opinion. 20 minute minimum sessions, at least twice a day of rat in direct contact with your person. This can be in the bath tub or in between a sweatshirt and your shirt. You can pet, but dont have to in the beginning, but the overall goal should be hands on with no ability for the rat to avoid you. Free range time doesn't count, this must be direct contact the whole time. If you are unable to pick him up, put a nesting box (can be a tissue box, etc) in his cage and pick it up with him in it for these sessions. Also, you'll need to start doing things in the cage like ch angling bedding, etc without treating each time to break the hand=food connection. Also, I want to prepare you for the possibility of problems with reuniting the brothers. If they have been separated for a few weeks it is possible that they will need to go through a formal introduction process as if they were strangers....as that may be how they see it.
> Lastly, I'm sure this goes without saying but I'd feel remiss if I didn't..no handling by children until you have this guy squared away and trust worthy. The last thing we want is your son's first experience with rats to be a terrifying and painful one. Is your guy the worst case...no. Is he pretty close to the worst case for a first time rat owner and family pet...he may be. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I don't think I'd be doing you, your family, or the rat any favors by mincing words. Good luck and keep us posted. PM me is you need support, and keep throwing questions out here. You're in for quite a process.


Thank you for your honesty. I will admit that for the better part of the day I have been considering my options as far as removing him from our home. As you pointed out, I have a child and at this point he is not allowed to have contact with Jake. The bites hurt and would most certainly result in an ER visit if inflicted on a 10 year old. 

I should note that we did try forced socialization this evening but the nature of the cage made it impossible to get him out. The opening was too small to really get a good angle and he's a wiggly worm. I know gloves aren't recommended, but considering my battle scars my husband insisted on wearing them (he was the one attempting it as I'm still a little gun shy from this afternoon). He was gentle and spoke to him as he was trying but just wasn't able to get him out. He did, however, get him to play a little soccer with him. He'd roll a cat ball (with the bell in it) over to Jake, who would either roll it back or bring it back in his mouth. As cute as that was, he did lunge and bite quite a few times so I'm afraid it did more harm than good. 

So…moving forward. If we decide that we can't keep him, what do we do? Nobody is going to want an unsocialized rat that bites (apparently I got this memo a tad late) and I'm not sure that Petsmart would take him back as I don't have my receipt (I do have the adoption paperwork though). It would feel like I'm taking a pound puppy back to the shelter. But people come before rats and I don't let my other pets put their mouths on me so… 

Forgive me, I'm feeling like a terrible person right about now.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

I know you are, and I'm sorry you're having to go through this. Petsmart will take him back, I believe their policy is within 14 days. Parent to parent, I rescued a lovely 5 month old pit bull two years ago. Within a month her human agression to strangers became quite apparent. I loved her, my husband loved her, my kids loved her. In the end I had to make the tough call that we were just not the right home for her. If I was single and she was my only project it would have been another story....but that just wasn't the case. Broke my heart but it was the right call for her and us. I completely support you taking him back, if this is what you choose. Family pets should be just that, and there's another rat out there...a baby...just waiting to be part of your family. Hang in there.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Also, while my girls are 3 and 5, and your son is 10 we explained to the girls that Starla just wasn't ready to live with a family because she was too scared. We let them know that we would find a dog that was ready for a family and when we did, rescue #2 pit bull/mastiff Winston, the girls said to us "yeah, he's ready for us.". We want to teach our kids that animals aren't expendable and that's a great lesson. I think it is equally as important to teach our kids that animals, like people, are individuals and sometimes respecting an animal means not imposing ourselves on it.


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## veggiesaurus (Oct 4, 2012)

I have mentioned to my husband that we may need to take him back and he is not really on board with that. Granted, he hasn't been bitten and is a little tenderhearted when it comes to critters. He was the last to get on board with the rats-as-pets idea so I can hear the "I told you so" already. Sigh...

My finger still hurts. :-\


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Have you asked your husband to read this thread? Jake is a 5 month old likely poorly bred feeder rat that they may have called a pet fancy rat because he has nice markings. Feeder rats can make tremendous pets when socialized early....sadly, this was not the case for your boy. If Jake were my rat, and I have 20 yrs experience in keeping rats as pets as well as working with them in labs (psychologist here), it would take me months of consistent calm and appropriate behavior before I would allow him access to my children or any stranger. I assume your son will want to show friends over to the house his pet? I also assume your son will want to play with him. I fear that after months of trust training by the adults he may come to feel detached from Jake. What fun is a pet you cant play with? And after watching Jake being wrangled by an adult wearing a glove, lunging and such, the chances of your son feeling uneasy about him is pretty high. Rats are such amazing buddies, I would hate for that to be killed for your son when socialization may not even make a huge impact with Jake.


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## veggiesaurus (Oct 4, 2012)

You're right, and I think there was miscommunication with my husband because I just explained to him that I will likely be taking Jake back to Petsmart and he understands. I think he thought that I was going to try to find him another home. He's in the military and was on duty last night so he didn't get a good nights sleep and is pretty tired. Which is another point...he will likely be deployed for much of the rat's life and won't be around to have to deal with him anyways so as mean as it sounds, I get final say. I explained the situation to my son as well and, while upset, he understands that Jake is likely a poor fit for our family. It feels strange to go from spending the past week being cautiously optimistic and now having to resign to the fact that we have made a mistake.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

My recommendation is to get him neutered. You could spend months and months getting him to chill out with kind words and food alone but a neuter should chill him out a Lot quicker (he may still need a bit of trust training to be totally trustworthy though).

And my absolute sympathies to your bitten finger, I have an aggressive girl at the moment who has administered similar bites, twice, on the same finger in a 3 day period, I still can't bend it properly *shakes fist at aggro girl rat*

Also, while I am hoping you find space in your heart and home to keep this boy (preferably with a couple of younger, tamer companions), a well bred rat can be a total ragdoll and loving right from the start (which is quite rewarding and worth looking for but probably very hard to find).

Edit: Another option would be to rehome him to someone with the time and patience to make him tame  Don't take him back to petsmart, it's a death sentence.


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## Ashley29 (Sep 27, 2012)

Hello and welcome to the forums. It's very unfortunate you're having so many issued with him, and everybody here so far is behind you in the possible decision to find him another home. That being said, please don't let this discourage you from getting a different rat. You already have the cage, and the supplies. I'm a first time rat owner, I have two little girls (going on 6 weeks now, had them for a week and a half), and they're great. They were from an accidental litter, and I can tell Molly has poor vision (she bobs her head to help with her depth perception), and that they aren't 100% trusting of me yet. But because they were occasionally handled as babies their demeanors are perfect. I have never been bitten (with the exception of a very gentle 'let's play' or 'grooming' bite), and they have their moments of playing games, chasing my hand and hiding in the blanket. Mary Jane got so excited she ran into a wall once because she couldn't turn the corner in time, it was both adorable and hilarious. Rats are truly amazing animals.

I really think they would be great pets for your family, if you could find babies. Mine were from an accidental litter, and although their genes probably aren't the best, they have personality and aren't deathly afraid of me. Google ratteries, rat rescues, and check the adoption pages in the forum to see if there's anything in your area. Also: I would recommend 2 females, as females are more playful and want to explore. They also scent mark less, typically. Unless you want a laid back rat once he hits adulthood, then you get a male, they're more cuddly from what I've heard.By the way, if all of this runs together, I'm typing on my phone and it sucks. Best of luck!


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Neutering him would not fix 5 months of non socialization and fear biting. Rehoming him would be horribly irresponsible unless you found someone interested in rehabbing an unsocialized rat, so I'm glad you and hubby aren't considering that. I also hope that after taking Jake back you find a pair of babies ASAP so you can really start sharing your lives with rats...and mend your sons broken heart. You've made a wise, thoughtful, responsible choice. Good for you!!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

This rat is fixable and he isn't doing anything that just about any unsocialized "5" month old chainpetshop rat is likely to do. Fight for pack dominance. Please note that all of the rats at the chainpetshop are 4 or 5 months old, no matter how large they are or how many months they are in the store.

You let your new rattie get his footings in his new cage and he's defending it. He thinks he's in charge and he's going to establish pack order with him on top. It's simple as that. I never put a new rat into a cage until after we play extensively first and I clear up any confusion as to who moved into who's home and who is in charge. If the rat was sweet and friendly in the store and you played with him there, that's likely his real personality. Letting a rattie get used to his new home and keeping your distance and talking softly is about the worst thing you can do. Rats are in your face animals and when they first meet they almost always fight. When you don't get right in his face you screw with the rules of rat behavior. That's not to say you shouldn't reward good behavior too. Most rat fights end quickly and then they play nice, you can expect the same from your rat.

If you really want to keep him, get him out of the cage onto your turf, put him on the floor with you in a controlled space and play with him... If he becomes agressive you push back harder and yell no! or stop!, if he's nice you give him treats and hugs immediately. I call it the immersion technique. Its where you interact with your rattie both by taking charge and being nice in response to his immediate reaction to you. Pretend you are an alpha rat and this guy wandered into your pack and thinks he's taking over... Sure you want his friendship and loyalty, but first you have to be his alpha.

It's ok to use towels and gloves etc in getting him under control. Rats don't hold grudges, but your first priority is to show him who's boss, then when he falls into line show him all the love he deserves... When a dominant rat wins over a subordinate he nibbles his opponent's belly, yes it shows doninance, but moreover it's to say "no hard feelings, see I'm being nice to you."

Either way, best luck.


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

I would agree with Rat Daddy -- I do not think that this case is 'unsolvable', and to me, it would seem as if you are giving up too easily if you simply bring him back to the store.. I understand your qualm about being afraid he may bite your son (and agree completely), but everything of worth is full of great difficulties -- and for a rat that came from a shop, I think what he is doing is to be expected (though certainly not accepted!) I really agree about the controlled space -- like I said earlier, the bathtub has worked best for me (as I don't have a very good 'ratproof' home) and 10-20 mins in that a day has transformed my feeder rat from squalling in terror to sitting calmly on my shoulder and grooming herself. This isn't a miracle transformation, it's the result of training and persistence and happens every day to normal people. Best of luck, and I hope to hear updates.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There seems to be lots of confusion about feeder rats. 

First the rats generally found in feeder rat bins range from farmed feeder rats, to breeder's seconds, to accidental litters turned in by customers. I've found dumbos, and rexes and blues and even high whites there as well as a half wild litter turned in by a customer.

If you have a keen eye you can spot the difference between a bred for food rat and a breeder's second. For example a litter of two high whites turned up. We can assume that either they were the imperfects of the batch or more likely they were the only survivors of the litter and the breeder dumped them as useless for his breeding program or before they developed mega colon like their siblings. No intellegent food rat breeder raises high whites.

The for food feeder rats are usually huskier and chunkier than their counterparts.. commercial breeders breed for fast growth, large size, good health and good dispositions. Obviously there's a profit motive for fast growth, good health and large size, but nice dispositions reduce osha complaints and lost work time by employees.

For the most part I find feeder rats to have nicer personalities and to be easier to handle than most other pet rats.... Unfortunately they also have a tendency to become obese. I also know of a few feeder rats that are over 4 years old.

As much as rat mills are horrible places they are run by people that have bred millions of rats and know their business and they have a vast genepool to work with unlike home breeders... If a commercial rat mill sets out to to accomplish something given their resources in terms of money, expertese and genepool they can get it done. Baby feeder rats make great first rats for new rat owners.


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## IOVERATS (Aug 25, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> This rat is fixable and he isn't doing anything that just about any unsocialized "5" month old chainpetshop rat is likely to do. Fight for pack dominance. Please note that all of the rats at the chainpetshop are 4 or 5 months old, no matter how large they are or how many months they are in the store.
> 
> You let your new rattie get his footings in his new cage and he's defending it. He thinks he's in charge and he's going to establish pack order with him on top. It's simple as that. I never put a new rat into a cage until after we play extensively first and I clear up any confusion as to who moved into who's home and who is in charge. If the rat was sweet and friendly in the store and you played with him there, that's likely his real personality. Letting a rattie get used to his new home and keeping your distance and talking softly is about the worst thing you can do. Rats are in your face animals and when they first meet they almost always fight. When you don't get right in his face you screw with the rules of rat behavior. That's not to say you shouldn't reward good behavior too. Most rat fights end quickly and then they play nice, you can expect the same from your rat.
> 
> ...


This is excellent advice Rat Daddy! Thanks so much, my friend recently was having this problem so I printed out your response and since then my friends rat is amazing  Thanks again, I hope this works for other people like it did for my friend because she can't thank you enough


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

ILOVERATS, 

Your friend is most welcome... I've learned a great deal from my rats. They are intellegent, sensative and competent animals who really want to love and be loved by their humans, but they understand the world as a rat would understand the world and they are born with certain rules of conduct pre-programmed into their psyche. 

Your rat needs to respect you in order to love you. It needs to feel safe belonging to a pack lead by a strong and caring alpha. Just like your kids need to know you will protect and cherish them, they also expect and accept your guidence and your setting the rules. (at least until they are teenagers). 

Trust training and forced socialization are two edges of the same sword, good rat owners blend both with their own personality to become good parents. It's not one or the other technique just like raising a child isn't a matter of dicipline or love it's often both combined... hence my term immersion. Which is a process of responding to your ratties needs on the fly... 

As to leaving a rattie alone to acclimate to it's new home... imagine if you were to adopt a child and leave him alone in his new bedroom for a couple of weeks before you introduce yourself or take away his matches. Before you ever get your new adopted child into your house, you would introduce yourself show your love and explain the house rules. The very same would be true if you adopted a new puppy, what right thinking person would take a new puppy and chain it up in the yard for a few days before going out to meet it. 

With children and dogs, immersing the adoptee right into your family from the moment you meet makes so much sense, it's strange how some people don't recognize the same need in their rats. 

Perhaps some people are afraid of their new ratties so they need time to overcome their fears, while other people don't realize how intellegent, sensative and complex their ratties are so that they feel immediate interaction isn't important and can be put off, but either way it's often not the rats problem, it's their owners.

The main reason I recommend that newbies adopt just wiened rats or well socialized young adults isn't so much that all older rats are screwed up, (although some are), its because it's easier for people to bond with baby or well behaved ratties; not the other way around.


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## IOVERATS (Aug 25, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> ILOVERATS, Your friend is most welcome... I've learned a great deal from my rats. They are intellegent, sensative and competent animals who really want to love and be loved by their humans, but they understand the world as a rat would understand the world and they are born with certain rules of conduct pre-programmed into their psyche. Your rat needs to respect you in order to love you. It needs to feel safe belonging to a pack lead by a strong and caring alpha. Just like your kids need to know you will protect and cherish them, they also expect and accept your guidence and your setting the rules. (at least until they are teenagers). Trust training and forced socialization are two edges of the same sword, good rat owners blend both with their own personality to become good parents. It's not one or the other technique just like raising a child isn't a matter of dicipline or love it's often both combined... hence my term immersion. Which is a process of responding to your ratties needs on the fly... As to leaving a rattie alone to acclimate to it's new home... imagine if you were to adopt a child and leave him alone in his new bedroom for a couple of weeks before you introduce yourself or take away his matches. Before you ever get your new adopted child into your house, you would introduce yourself show your love and explain the house rules. The very same would be true if you adopted a new puppy, what right thinking person would take a new puppy and chain it up in the yard for a few days before going out to meet it. With children and dogs, immersing the adoptee right into your family from the moment you meet makes so much sense, it's strange how some people don't recognize the same need in their rats. Perhaps some people are afraid of their new ratties so they need time to overcome their fears, while other people don't realize how intellegent, sensative and complex their ratties are so that they feel immediate interaction isn't important and can be put off, but either way it's often not the rats problem, it's their owners.The main reason I recommend that newbies adopt just wiened rats or well socialized young adults isn't so much that all older rats are screwed up, (although some are), its because it's easier for people to bond with baby or well behaved ratties; not the other way around.


Thanks again, and those paragraphs about socialisation has made me realise just how important it is for those first few minutes inside your house how you must handle them. When I get my babies I'm going to straight away get them out. And your shoulder rat thread was interesting to read and find out the step you have to take to get your rats into true shoulder rats. I know I didn't really gain anything from that thread apart from the knowledge of it, I don't intend to make a shoulder rat out of my soon to be rats because I would probably mess up and end up killing my precious babies  so they will have to be content with free ranging You have probably helped more people with their rat problems and questions then I've met in my lifetime. You have written some inspiring and interesting things on the rat forum and I know many people start threads and people ask for you to answer  Anyway, I went round my friends house today and I can handle her rat no problem, before he would lunge bite try to run off with you fingers and it wasn't because he was mistaking your hand for treats, it was pure aggression. My friend actually started crying when she could finally hold her rat, she actually wants to hug you, haha she went a little over the top about it all, but thanks again Sorry if I've rambled but thanks again.... I'll shut up now...


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi ILOVERATS,

I'm so pleased your friend is now on the right track with her rat. Remind her that as their relationship develops he is going to be constantly trying to communicate with her and to always try to "listen to him". He wants to love her and be loved in return so he's going to try and please her. Rats aren't good at understanding lots of human words, and often people get confused when ratties act out their needs, but with lots of understanding from both sides they are both on the right path and I'm gratified I could help.


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