# dilemma, need advice :(



## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

Hey guys, so I need advice, this is a long and some what sad story, but I will try and make it as short as I can and get to the point. But be warned I am sure some of you will be on the offensive.
Pretty much what has happened is my best friend (since I was 8 years old) is going through a bad mental illness and has been trying to make her self feel better, but in doing so has made and continues to make bad decisions. She got some rats and planned to breed them, her blue rat had a litter 4 weeks ago, and the other female rat that is a fawn color named Eitchy got very ill and had a litter but they were all stillborn, I was able to get Eitchy to pull through her illness but now she is all alone and my friend doesn't want her anymore because she decided to only breed blue rats. I want to take the little girl in but when ever I try to introduce her with my female calypso (I tried introducing her before calypso had her littler.) Calypso would bite and hurt little Eitchy like crazy, one time almost killing her. (I didn't just toss her in with calypso either I tried doing things super slow, but for some reason Calypso has something against Eitchy) I want to be able to find Eitchy a good home but until then I was hoping to reintroduce her with the blue female and her babies. when would it be possible to try reintroducing her into the blue group? and how should I go about it? 
there is also a male that needs a home and he is currently living with my male Sash, but I am planning on keeping 2 of calypso's and sash's male babies and was planning on putting them in with Sash once they are old enough. but I am afraid that the other male (his name is minx,) would hurt them. anyways I need advice on how to go about this situation. 
before you all go onto telling me how my friend shouldn't be breeding and what not I already know, and I am trying my best to do what I can to help the situation but in the end it isn't my choice, and at this point and time my friend isn't mentally stable enough to think clearly. so lets just try and make a crappy situation the best we can until we can fix it completely. I am hoping to talk my friend into keeping Eitchy if the blue and her can get along again. but as for the male, I just don't know what to do for him, he is a sweet heart but no one where I am seems to want to take him. T_T


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

From what I understand you have two males, and you want two more? Just house the new two separately, or I'd say, just focus on the two you have, if one of your males is too aggressive for new ones. I don't think you should be trying to rehome him unless you really have to. You're his home. 

As for the female, try reintroducing her with the blues very slowly. If you can't, then try to rehome her... 

Where are your friends' parents in all this...? Is she finding homes for the babies ? 


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

she is an adult and lives with her husband, and the male is not mine, he belongs to her, but I have Sash the father of the 2 young males I will be keeping and they will be living with their father, I am just worried the other male that belongs to my friend his name being Minx would be aggressive towards them. if it is possible to try and introduce them together then I wouldn't mind keeping him with all of my males. If the other females don't except the little female Eitchy I fear my friend will take her to our local pet store and sell her to them. as for the babies, she is keeping 2 and the rest are white albinos and are going to be sold to the pet store sadly.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Are there any rescues in your area? If so try contacting them concerning the babies. 

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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

sadly I tried, there are no actual rat rescues and anything close to it is not eccepting any more animals.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well there's always Craig's list. Or better yet the adoption section on this forum. 

As a former psychology major, there is no known mental illness that causes someone to breed rats, blue or otherwise. Back yard breeding snake food is a really for low profit home enterprise that usually ends up really badly. Commercial rat farms do it expertly and are set up with the right retail vendors to do it in enough volume to make money. They produce millions of healthy rats that wholesale for as little as a buck to a few bucks a piece. BYB's can't compete without cutting costs and producing inferior animals.

That's not to say that there aren't some BYB's that do it to save on snake food and some that actually get good at it and upgrade their stock and eventually make a fully blown hobby out of breeding some really nice rats at only a slight annual loss. But for the most part, your better off distancing yourself from your friend's rat tragedies. It might be easier to stay friends if you aren't smack dab in the middle of her inevitable disaster.

Best luck.


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

I never said she had a mental illness that only caused those things, she has a bad case of post postpartum depression on top of personality disorder or bipolar, as of right now she is in a treatment facility. I would usually separate my self from this situation but seeing how I am living in her house, and am working off rent by taking care of all her animals, it is hard to do so. I have been using a site that our state uses as craig's list, and have yet to find homes for them or any of the adults, most people on this forum are not close to where I am either. She is not breeding for feeders or money, she is breeding for colors. The main reason I started this thread was to ask for advice on how to introduce the animals to one another, does anyone have any good threads on this topic? or know any good ways of introducing males, and reintroducing females?


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I'll try and give advice on this from what I've read, though I've never really had a issue with introducing new boys to my group and they always accept new additions right away. I suppose I'm just lucky enough to have amazingly sweet boys.

From what I've read if just normal introductions on neutral territory doesn't work out bathtub introductions usually help.
You get all the boys in the bath with water and something they can sit on out of the water like a turned over small bucket.
Bath them all with baby shampoo so they all smell the same, the stress from the bath usually brings them together and they will form a bond.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rat introductions go best when all of the rats recognize the same human alpha. They form a pack around their human. And their human can manage the introductions and subsequent play safely.

As you aren't really everyone's alpha, and likely don't want to be. Introductions aren't going to be easy. 

Normally, I start with immersion training to get all of my rats on the same page then I manage the introductions in one long marathon session. When I'm done everyone plays nicely together.

That's the advise I would give under normal conditions. In your case bonding with all of the rats in the household and building a cohesive pack around yourself may be more difficult. Thus my first response was to separate yourself from your friends issues and rats. 

I meant no disrespect but I've seen so many bad endings start something like you posted. And I've seen people mess up their friendships by getting involved with their friend's animals... I hope it works out for you all.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm sure that Mystic appreciates your concern and the advice, but I think it was the idea that even though their friend has a mental illness, you gave off the impression that that's no excuse for them to do this with rats. I know it isn't really, but things are different with illnesses and people are given exceptions. I agree with the immersion however, I tried it with my new girl and it's really working, kudos.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Mystic, there Are lots of YouTube videos on intros, and lots of posts... Just search for intros. People do them in different styles.. If you re having trouble finding these resources, let me know. 


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

I figured you didn't mean it rudely Rat Daddy, that's why I explained more. and thanks everyone for all the good advice! I truly appreciate it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all I'm so glad immersion is working for you too. I'm very proud of my rats and I've learned so much working with them I'm glad to pass it on.

As a psychology major long ago, I actually worked in a mental hospital. The infamous "Overbrook" for a summer... (as seen in horror movies) I tried out a few new ideas there too. After a life time in the institution I got a 70+ year old patient to neatly fold his clothes before going to bed. And yes, it looked a whole lot like immersion and it wasn't very pretty, even in a brutal place like that it was a little over the top. But I ended a decades long nightly battle, requiring two to three attendants and a wrestling match in one single evening. I first established communication and then I instilled order. The patient immediately began to behave better and received nicer treatment from the entire staff from then on.

When I left, the same patient came up to me and thanked me for "caring about him". It was about the first time he had ever spoken civilly to anyone. I almost broke into tears.

Yes, absolutely we all need to support people with emotional issues... but we shouldn't suspend right and wrong. A life time of treating a certain patient like a wild animal almost got me killed. He had a very heavy steel chair over my head, I was sitting, he was behind me and my hands were down. I looked into his bright red bloodshot eyes and asked him firmly and politely to put the chair down. And he did, he got ice cream afterwards, and we played catch and we became "friends". As it turns out he had maimed several other employees and had spend decades chained in a cage before the advent of anti-psychotics. He acted like the dangerous animal he was regarded as. I even discovered he had actually learned to write a little but most of his letters were still backwards as his family likely gave up on him at the age of about 5.

People with emotional problems need support, care and even respect. But you don't lower the bar to allow for bad behavior. That doesn't help them... it just gives them more problems to face down the road. You don't tolerate biting in rats, ever... nor animal abuse in humans, ever. Whats wrong for the healthy is still wrong for the ill. Just like fixing screwed up rats, fixing screwed up humans takes intervention. I'm not advocating condemnation or retribution but guidance and help.

I know sometimes I come across like a pr**k, and sometime I'm both a pr**k and I'm wrong. But I envision a whole bunch of neglected, mistreated pregnant rats and scores of low quality offspring with no budget for adequate vet care and I really don't see a future that isn't going to end badly. On one hand the friend is supposed to be someone who loves and wants to breed rats, but she's dumping her babies into the feeder bin because they are the wrong color. And ditching her furry friends for the same reason. If someone doesn't love their rats they shouldn't be breeding. And if someone drags their well meaning friend into the mess that friendship is likely to end badly too. 

I'm not judging anyone, there's no good guys or bad guys here. There are however rats that need proper care and homes and someone in need of an intervention. And there's no way to establish a healthy happy rat pack given the situation at hand that is going to make any of the humans happy.

Once your friend can get back on her feet and love herself, and love her rats... maybe then she might be able to begin a responsible breeding program if she has the time and finances. And she might be able to turn out well socialized healthy rats that will be sought after by good homes. And you might even encourage her to follow that dream some day, but I can't imagine that sick rats, dead babies rejected pets and rats for snake food are in any way going to improve her emotional health.

I know I still sound harsh and intolerant .. but perhaps you can translate my thoughts into something more touchy-feely and PC. The best way to help your friend is to stop her before she causes herself and more rats more harm. Then get her to work with you to concentrate on socializing the rats you and her already have. Perhaps breeding blue rats should be less of a priority than raising the potential fun pack of rats you already have between the two of you. One single best friend rat like the one's I have will give her more emotional support than any production line rat project. I know I'm not answering the question you asked, but I'm telling you what I believe you need to know to get to where you really want to be. This should be what pet rats are all about:


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

Thank you Rat Daddy, I agree with you, the only reason I had mentioned she was mentally ill is so that people would understand that she isn't a horrible person as much as she is just so broken right now. (not to mention I have had many people freak out on me about her on other forums because they didnt know her condition) I wish I could change my friends mind on so many things. she has just been making one bad choice after another, some of her choices make no sense to us but feel like "the answer to her happiness" to her. my husband and I along with her husband all see what she is doing, and we tell her and try to explain to her that it's a bad choice before she does it, but in the end she does it anyway thinking its the right thing to do. I have told her I didn't agree and that it was a bad choice, I have told her I wouldn't support her in a lot of the choices she makes, but it doesn't ever stop her. It drives us all crazy and the only one who could even try and stop her from doing things is her husband. Sadly when her husband does stand up and say no she threatens to divorce him or kill her self.<br>
The whole situation has been out of control and the truth of the matter is, that her husband should have admitted her long ago so she could get the help she needs if she liked it or not, but he doesn't want to loose her because he loves her so much, and he knows if he makes her to angry she would leave him, so he tries the gentle approach. We are all hoping that this place she is in will help her, so that she can at least think a bit clearer, and then I would be able to explain things to her, but when she is depressed the slightest thing makes her attempt to take her own life, or run away and disappear. so its just been like walking on eggshells, I cant do anything about the incorrect rat breeding because I don't have the authority to make that choice, and there is no real animal abuse or neglect that is going on that could be reported to the proper authorities. so all I can do for now is try and keep the rats she has as happy as possible. what makes things even harder is I am the only person around here that knows the proper care of animals, every one else has been taught that you just feed and water the animal and love on it when you want. So even when I tell my friend or her husband that they are doing something wrong when it comes to animal care, all of their friends and family tell them they are spoiling their animals and that I am a crazy animal lady. I only have my husband to back me up, it drives me crazy. If only more people knew the right care of animals I am sure she would listen to me and them more, but when its only one voice against every one else the person knows, it is hardly convincing. <br>
If I had another choice on where I could live, I could just stay away from the situation like all her other friends, and just ignore this insanity and take care of my self and my animals. But because I am disabled and barely able to take care of my self, my pets and hers each day my husband is stuck working 14 hour shifts trying his hardest to get us stable enough to get our own place. life is just so crazy some times all you can do is just keep moving forward.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm not sure that depression and post partum are her only issues.... She should see a good psychiatrist if she can. 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

And mystic.... I understand how you feel; life is hard sometimes, but... We all have things to feel thankful for, right?  


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

yep ^_^


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, there are other rat forums where many of us might feel less welcome. Judging people doesn't help anyone. And frankly your friend might very well be benefited by a pet rat or two pet rats to love and that love her. And I would actually encourage that kind of "therapy".

But I can't make it any more clear than this... humoring an emotionally ill person in making bad decisions always makes things worse. Sure when patients ran away from the hospital we didn't need to run them down... but experience proved that mostly they would wind up wandering the streets hungry and naked in the cold. So what looked to them like a great plan at the time often had some very real shortcomings. If your friend told you she wanted to crash her car into a tree and if you wouldn't let her, she would kill herself, would you let her? People with real emotional or mental issues rely on the more sane to guide them, even if they don't like it much. Not knowing your friend, she may be what rat hoarders start out as... but imagine what her problems would look like with 3000 rats free ranging the house... Don't laugh, it's actually happened.

So, we're not judging you... and we'd love to support you and help you with your rats, but in order for you to develop a happy, healthy and friendly pack... you need to establish some order before you proceed... I've even heard of a case reported here where a person was evicted and lived under a bridge with her rats.... and even that worked out for both rats and human in the end, but the basics of establishing a pack order were maintained throughout some really adverse circumstances. A few well trained rats and a loving human alpha, and the rats followed their owner though h*ll and back. There are very helpful and experienced rat owners and trainers in this forum, but some things just won't work for either humans nor rats.

You absolutely have to get the human elements on the right page before we can start to help you with your rat problems. There may or may not be another elephant in the room... you are talking about "animals" so I'm guessing that there are other animals involved too and things might even be worse than you've described. 

So don't feel put off, you are welcome and will find help here... but no builder can fix the roof of a house on a shifting foundation until the foundation is fixed. We can fix your rat problems once you have severed them from your friends problems, or we can fix all of the rat issues once your friend gets on the right page. Both of you can have loving normal well adjusted rat families. And like I said that might really help your friend, but you won't ever get there from where you are at until the basics of establishing a stable rat population with the right kind of emotional support for the rats is accomplished. Simply put that's step one, from there the rest will be relatively easy.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Honestly abandoning your friend and leaving her and the rats to their own devices won't benefit her nor the rats. 
Your friend sounds like she has BPD (borderline personality disorder). I know because i have it. I went through a period in my life where i did something similar and i was lucky enough that my family and friends did not abandon me and leave me to my own devices. 
While they did not support the choices i was making, they let me know that they still supported me as a person and loved me for me. They did what they could to help me and in the end i realized that the choices i was making were wrong and needed to change them. I did not breed rats like she is doing but i was being self destructive in the same manner. It
It isn't about allowing her to get away with stuff and right vs. wrong because mentally ill people do not think in the same way that those who are not do. 
Their though process is totally different and unless you have a mental illness then you cannot relate to that mind frame. She doesn't view what she is doing to be wrong or damaging to the rats. She honestly feels she is doing right by her pets because she is living in her own reality and in that reality she is the perfect owner/breeder. 
She needs proper therapy and possibly medication for the combining mental illnesses (In almost every case BPD is accompanied by other mental illnesses). Only then can your friend realize that she is wrong and work on righting the situation. 
Abandoning her will only cause more distress on her and worsen the situation. 
If you want to talk or have any questions feel free to PM me.  
Just remember there is hope for your friend and the rats. 

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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

Thanks for all your support guys, I really need it lol even though when I started this thread I wasn't expecting any help beside some introduction advice on the rats lol but I am very grateful! this whole situation is pretty stressful, and one of the main problems I believe is how the husband is handling things, but I cant really say anything because he is probably handling things a bit better then I would have lol If I was the husband I might have "helped" her kill her self by killing her myself haha naw JK but really, thank you Mistymorning and Rat Daddy. 
and to answer Rat Daddy's question about there being more animals, rats are not the only thing she has been breeding or trying to breed. at one point we had almost 80 animals in this one house, about 70% where mice though, but she just purchased 2 Alaskan klee kais (mini huskies) she spent $5000.00 on these dogs, and drove out of state to get them! She didn't have the money and borrowed it from her father, and yes the father let her get them! it doesn't help that so many people are enabling her. She has 5 dogs and 4 are not potty trained, (6 dogs total in the house including my girl) there would be 5 untrained dogs but I took on the job of training one of the pups one on one and it has worked well. she has 2 cats (thank goodness she isn't trying to breed those) she had 2 ferrets (that where left in the basement room in cage,) and 2 rabbits (that were left outside in the winter in a small hutch that everyone would forget about) she was going to breed her 2 pom-chies and sell the pups to her friend at the pet store (why you ask, because the jerk told her that chie puppies sell fast and that she should breed them and then let him sell them) luckily she started coming to her senses a bit and realized that it wasn't a good idea to breed those 2, ( and her husband finally got them spayed) and the only thing that stopped her from breeding her other dogs (so far at least) is the fact that god loves me and has made the male's testies not fall and so he has to be neutered and then the female she got turned out not to be pure bred and my friend paid 2700.00 for her lol anyway she was trying to breed hamsters and mice and rats, and had a room stacked with cages, we still do but I have been able to get her to "thin" the herd. she found homes for her rabbits, the ferrets, and got ride of some rats and lots of mice. I feel bad about a lot of what I have had to do while being involved with her, because most of the time it was me taking the mice in to the pet store, but the amount of rodents she had was very unhealthy for her and the animals, and at one point when you walked in the room your eyes would water because the smell was so bad. (that was the day after i cleaned the cages and aired out the room) But right before she left for the treatment center she ended up buying some baby rabbits, (I am partially to blame, T_T I fell in love with one and so she got it with hers if I agreed to care for them while I was living with her, I know I failed.. ) but at least I am caring for them correctly unlike her rabbits she had before I moved in. (poor things)
but anyway thanks guys and sorry for turning this thread into a massive cry fest for me, I appreciate all your advice, one everything. and sorry again for venting so much.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There's a really odd side to getting old, it's being able to read the story that isn't written down. The dogs, the mice. the cats and the bunnies fit the pattern, I would have guessed guinea pigs rather than ferrets and elephants really would have surprised me. The neglect and stench go without additional remark required. As often does any real lack of animal human bond... The fact is that you absolutely can't have 80 best friends. And just about each of the animals you listed requires a couple of hours a day human interaction and play to make for real pets. When we only had one rat, and she was younger she could play with us all day and occupy more of my time and my daughter's time than we could barely spare. A canine companion can do about the same.

First you need to get out of your friend's mind set, if she's got you accumulating animals too... Friends can drag you down the fantasy well too... And once you get your footing square you might be able to start to downsize the zoo and get her to start working on training a few remaining animals to be real pets. 

Let me outline the chain of events as it's going to go without intervention... your friend likes animals and they bring her human attention from you and her family, she decides more animals will bring her more love, but given finite resources and unlimited need, the expansion needs to be self sustaining so breeding animals will fund the expansion... but breeding mice can't fund the growing zoo, nor will plain rats, maybe blue rats will be more profitable as would expensive dogs, but the reality is that the expansion plans cause none of the animals to be actual pets and all of the animals get in the way of any rational breeding plans. So there's no funding for the expansion and no pets to be seen anywhere in amongst the zoo. As the zoo gets bigger and fewer healthy animals get sold for greater loss, and more animals get sick and die, the process spins up and accelerates to a frantic pace until her whole life starts to fly apart. Then there is the inevitable crash. Starved and neglected animals everywhere, human relationships shattered, financial hardship and emotional devastation. Amelia, my stellar high white came from such a situation. She was 7 months old and didn't even know her own name, she didn't know how to give people kisses. Luckily her owner never set her breeding plans into motion as Amelia was the survivor of a litter devastated by megacolon and most of her offspring would have died tragically. She sat on my desk like a flower pot for nearly a month before working up the courage to move about. It's taken 6 months in a loving home to work up the courage to come out and meet strangers. Sure I've seen your situation before, several times and at first it almost looks like an animal lover with a dream... But it doesn't take long for the dream to turn into a nightmare. 

Successful animal breeders start out with solid finances a passion for a single animal and a realistic and realizable goal. You dedicate a single room to breeding 4 pair of rats that you raise and cherish as pets, you invest lots of time and love into your hobby and you realize up front that you aren't going to break even counting your time as free. 

I've had only one friend that actually made a real success at breeding animals. But he started out with a real farm and general store and he had a fetish for mink and he built many acres of nice clean sanitary mink barns and hired a small army of staff (practically the whole town) and that funded his pet project which was an actual zoo and museum. He started hoarding animals in 1927 and at the time of his death he had a heard of bison, a big cat section, two kodiak bears and he just opened his antique car exhibit and was building a real full size glockenspiel with church bells that weighed up to a couple of tons. 

See link:

http://www.spacefarms.com/zoo.html

But despite his hoarding fetish, he always had a real and realistic plan, he was emotionally stable, he had the support of a large extended family and he was a financial savant. That combined with an immunity to rattlesnake venom and more than a fair share of luck made him successful, even if never satisfied. But for every Ralph Space there are thousands of would-be animal breeding disasters. I've never been to a commercial rat farm, but I saw Ralph's mink farm and it sprawled over many many acres not a household. He even had a fur outlet where his tailors crafted custom mink coats.... 

But true to his nature and his luck, he sold the mink farm and fur store at the peak of the market just before the fur business crashed and retired handsomely wealthy to expanding his zoo and his museum.

If you can't get your friend to see how she is headed for disaster, maybe you can get her to see how she is not headed for success. My friend bought a commercial building and installed 600 aquariums, built a pond out back, invested 16 hours a day in breeding and maintaining his aquariums and after he "invested" much of his family fortune, and collapsed of a serious heart attack the whole enterprise collapsed around him. He had big bucks to start out with and a plan and a driving passion and it nearly killed him, any revenues were incidental to the scope of the enterprise. I can go on with rat nightmares, dog disasters, and other animal tragedies. But suffice it to say, I've seen your friends situation before. Animal hobbies are not self sustaining, nor do the become businesses. I've even seen pet shops that were hobbies rather than businesses being supported by the working spouse. 

Your friend is going to resist change because it means her plan failed, she's going to feel she's going to lose the support of her family and friends and status. But she is actually going to get her life back. Maybe she feels that wasn't enough but it's a step in the right direction. She can always get a job at a pet shop, with a vet, or at a zoo and satisfy her need to be around animals without devastating her family and still be the mom to a small pack of rats or even a ferret or a dog or two. The emphasis is on "or".

Again good luck, hopefully you can get your situation under control and then we can help you for real.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> There's a really odd side to getting old, it's being able to read the story that isn't written down. The dogs, the mice. the cats and the bunnies fit the pattern, I would have guessed guinea pigs rather than ferrets and elephants really would have surprised me. The neglect and stench go without additional remark required. As often does any real lack of animal human bond... The fact is that you absolutely can't have 80 best friends. And just about each of the animals you listed requires a couple of hours a day human interaction and play to make for real pets. When we only had one rat, and she was younger she could play with us all day and occupy more of my time and my daughter's time than we could barely spare. A canine companion can do about the same.
> 
> First you need to get out of your friend's mind set, if she's got you accumulating animals too... Friends can drag you down the fantasy well too... And once you get your footing square you might be able to start to downsize the zoo and get her to start working on training a few remaining animals to be real pets.
> 
> ...


There is no one size fits all when it comes to mental illness. If you worked at a mental hospital you should know that. I started out like her friend but did not spiral out of control as you're describing. You can't say what will and will not happen and your approach to this situation is not beneficial for the type of mental illness I suspect she has. There are many many mental illnesses and each requires a different approach. Her friend is in treatment now. The best thing she can do is be a support system to the friend and her husband. Trying to get her to see the wrong in her actions will not benefit the situation. 

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Mistymornings18

I so agree on the support part... but as to waiting and watching things getting worse... not so much. Even people with emotional issues can learn, adapt and improve their situations with the kind guidance and support of their family and friends.... 

I don't believe that the animals are the cause of the problem, but they may or may not be a link in the chain that keeps mystic's friend off balance and an unhealthy situation going. I'm pretty sure we all agree that they aren't really helping mystic's friend.

As I read it, if it weren't for mystic, we wouldn't be taking about things ending badly we would already have an ASPCA action event on our hands. 

Without fixing mystic's friend's emotional problems or even playing pop shrink to try and diagnose them... I'm only recommending that mystic and the other family members support her friend into seeing a better plan for herself, and one that involves fewer animals. 

Underlying emotional issues aside for a moment... doesn't it sound like there's a plan in place? As in blue rats over common rats or $5000.00 dogs over common mutts? If there's a plan, good or bad, it might be brought to the surface and addressed and adjusted to improve mystic's friend's situation. 

Sure I know that mystic's friend isn't going to readily accept change. Something about the current situation is working for her. And for now, zookeeping is in part the reason mystic has a home... (Honesty, I can see several scenarios where everyone in the household might even be deriving some short term benefit from the zoo.) But if mystic took ill or had to go to the hospital for a week herself or moved out, what then?

I mean we're talking about helping the animals aren't we? We certainly can't help mystic's friend. Although I believe that by reducing the animal overhead and converting the remaining elements of the zoo into real pets we would be helping mystic's friend her family and mystic to get on with their real lives. Right now our focus should be to rescue the animals without doing any additional emotional harm to the human's involved before things get worse.

I mean, come on Mistymornings18, I love and admire your big heart, but I can't be the only one that sees the train wreck at the end of this tunnel if no one switches tracks soon. And you are right it doesn't have to end badly, but if everyone continues to facilitate the problem and waits for mystics's friend to change on her own and no one hits the breaks in time, it just will.


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

Well after many weeks of pondering and praying on this subject I was able to figure out what I was going to do thanks to all of your help. I emailed my friend (she can only receive emails right now) and told her that after many weeks of thinking about something that I made a decision. I told her That I would no longer be breeding mice, and I didnt know if I would be breeding rats any longer either, ( yes I too breed rats after falling inlove with the beautiful Siamese, and Siamese dumbos but I am guessing you guys figured that out,) I told her that she needed to be thinking about why she has all the animals she does, and that none of the pets in the pet room ever get attention or love, ( I give them what I can but its not enough) and that is it cruel to just leave them in a dark room where no one sees them or touches them. especially only to be used to create cute babies that she would not keep, or find homes for if they are not the correct colors. I told her that I loved her but I was unable to support her in keeping these animals for breeding, and that I would love to keep taking care of them and helping her to play and love on them once she got back if that is what she chooses, but if she isn't going to put time and love into them then I would be unable to support her in that subject. I told her I loved her and support her in many other things but couldn't support her and help her to be happy if it meant hurting animals. and that she needed to figure out the real reason she wanted them, and to consider finding them other homes if she wasn't going to love them. I have yet to get a email beck from her, and I am sure she is not happy with me right now, but oh my gosh can I just say how much relief I got once I sent that email! talk about a weight taken off my shoulders.

It is true if I got sick and couldn't take care of the animals that they would most likely die. I already had this happen when my health took a bad turn for a bit and I told my friend and her husband that I would no longer be taking care of the animals, that I would just have to pay them rent instead. During that time I tried to show the husband how to care for the animals, but in the end he never did anything and I was the one feeding and watering them, and I had to watch them sit in filthy cages. so I told my friend I would take care of the animals because I didn't want to see them suffer, and the husband admitted that he was afraid because he knew he wouldn't remember or have time to care for them and they would have all most likely died. so if my friend isn't better soon and I am physically unable to care for these animals, there is a very real possibility that they would all die off. 

Also after getting the rabbits, I realized that I was getting into the same habit of gathering animals, and that I need to watch my self and avoid getting any more pets for quite a while. This whole experience is one to remember, and I hope that my friend and I can come out of this with a stronger friendship and better lives for the both of us and our pets.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've attached a photo of Amelia, she spent 7 months living in a home zoo just like you describe. We don't usually take in "rescues" but we had seen her as a baby and fallen in love with her. When we met her again our true shoulder rat walked up to her, sniffed her and gave me a couple licks on the cheek... She's always rejected roomies and this was a first, so we got our rat a pet rat.

I asked her former owner what her name was, and she said it was Amelia after quite some thought, she admitted that none of her other rats had names but her daughter had named this one.

I'm not saying that Amelia was mistreated, just a part of a home zoo. But on the second day we had her I realized she didn't know her own name, she didn't understand a single command and she sat on my desk like a flower pot for several weeks afraid to move... She still doesn't give kissies or properly appreciate skritches and she's terrified of the outdoors and she's uncomfortable around strangers. Still she's come a long way, but when we reintroduced her to her former mom she jumped back to us like her feet were on fire.

Amelia is very smart, she's the only rat we ever had that learned to unlock her cage, she now loves to explore the house and she's right there when she's called. As Fuzzy Rat has been sick for a while she preens her and snuggles her and when she got locked in a closet, Amelia kept jumping on my foot and running to the closet door until we let Fuzzy Rat out. Amelia loves to be with us, she loves to roam the house and she's a very special animal that never ceases to want attention and show her affection as best as she knows how....

Even living in Fuzzy Rat's long shadow, and getting unfairly screwed up in her former household Amelia's personality shines through and she's lovable and makes us feel loved.

And her former owners could barely remember her name... At least they realized they weren't giving her a chance, and after meeting Fuzzy Rat they wanted Amelia to have a chance at being in a real family too.

The point to the ramble? It's simple, it's not how many animals you have, it's how much love you can give each and how much love they can return to you... Maybe some people actually can manage more animals than others, but take a look at the second photo of Fuzzy Rat, meeting and greeting a little girl at the beach... That's what a single rat, hand raised by a loving family can look like. She's met hundreds if not thousands of people and has more friends than I do. OK, true, Fuzzy Rat is a true shoulder rat, and that's pretty rare, but we plucked her right out of a feeder rat bin, but if we hadn't worked with her, and supported her and loved her she could have languished in a cage or been a snake snack. When you consider how much love you and your friend are missing out on from any one of your animals because you have so many other animals, its so easy to see how you guys are short changing yourselves as well as your pets.

I'm glad you're seeing the light. When you are ready to really get to know your pets and experience unconditional love we will be happy to help you, and when your friend and her family are ready they can be helped too. And no one is going to neglect their best friends, because rather than feeding and cleaning up a small farm full of stinking cages every day everyone will want to come home to and be with their beloved pets. And by the way, your are way more likely to make more money doing anything other than breeding pets at home just in case that thought ever sneaks back into anyone's thinking... Crunch some realistic numbers, value your time at something reasonable, calculate the cost of food, animals, space in your home, supplies, likely market share etc and you'll find you can do way better pumping gas or doing daycare than you will do with breeding dogs or small pets. I have a friend that makes over $40,000.00 per year babysitting days, think about how many cages you would have to clean to clear half that income. 

Seriously without your support and better yet once you have one or a few real trained pet rats, your friend will come around. Just show her the better way.


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## Mystic (Dec 28, 2012)

little Amelia is so cute ^.^ Im so glad she got a happy ending. I hope to bond with my babies as closely as you have. 
I was never into breeding for money, I only wanted to breed healthy loving well tempered rats, and improve coloring but now I don't know if I will continue with that because of the difficulty when it comes to finding good homes for them. I would need more space so I could keep unsold kittens until they got a home, and I just don't have the room for that right now. 
right now I have some mice, a small dog, (who is amazing, every one loves her and she loves everyone) a small rabbit and my rats, though I am starting to worry about how many rats I am going to end up with. I say that because I got a response from my friend.
She told me she is probably going to sell her "business" lol I don't know why she really calls it that... and only keep a couple mice and a rat or two. for some reason she only wants to keep one rat and that doesn't make any sense to me because she knows rats need friends, I wonder why she thinks one rat is better? she said the rest of the animals she would try and sell to pet shops. I have fallen for most of her rats and don't want to have to see them go to pet stores, so I am more then likely going to take the female Eitchy if I can get her to get along with my other females, and I decided to keep minx as well. right now my friend has 3 blue rats, the mother rat and one baby female and one baby male. I told her she should try and keep the mom and daughter if she was going to keep any, and that I might take the baby blue boy off her hands... but im not sure what I should do, if I was to take in all of her unwanted rats and keep the ones I am keeping out of the litter, then I would end up with 5 females and 5 males in total. luckily I plan on making 2 large book shelf cages so there would be plenty of room for them, but still its a concern. I just hope I don't regret owning so many.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Your friend calls it her business because somewhere deep down she's thinking that's what it is. If she could only work out a few minor kinks she believes she's on the way towards her own Space Farms or at least a respectable self sustaining enterprise. The fact is that I've watched so many of these "enterprises" go down in flames I can smell one up wind from miles away. You don't even need to have emotional issues, just an initial love for animals a really bad idea and a stubborn streak. By the time that mathematical reality sets in your usually ankle deep in disaster.

Your plans seem more realistic, you more than likely got sucked in by your friends optimism. And while she got more determined you got more, well shall we call it "ankle deep". I'm so glad you have a small dog that's a real pet and friend. You have a model for what all of the animals in your household should be like. 

Re-home the zoo, like Amelia most of the animals will be way better off. And expect resistance along the way from your friend. People have lots of trouble accepting their failures and there will be occasions where your friend is going to strike on some better plan that is going to make everything work. Of course it won't and you will have to be ready to show her the logical flaws and the numbers if necessary and everyone in the household is going to have to stand firm on a limit. Also it might help if you get her into training and caring for her pets rather than producing more of them.

A good dog or horse trainer can make a living at it, whereas a home breeder can't, unless she has a real farm to start out with. If she needs a plan to fulfill her life there are many that actually work. Regrettably back yard animal breeding isn't one of them.

Again I'm glad to hear things are getting better, keep up the good work, and I think we would all like to hear about the progress you make with your rats once you have the time to focus on them properly.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

One last note, breeding to actually improve an animal requires hundreds superior animals to start out with, then you need to maintain thousands over generations in large expensive facilities with a dedicated staff, have advanced education in genetics, lots of luck and years of commitment, not to mention major funding. 

Sure there are a few people working on it at home, and they produce some nice rats, but I only refer people to breeders because they are likely to get better socialized animals, not necessarily superior genetic stock. Whatever your friend produces isn't very likely going to be any better than what any kid can get from the big chain pet shop when it comes to socialization and might even be more screwed up than something out of a snake food bin.


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