# Oh boy, NOW WHAT?



## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

I have two pet store rats; a light tan male I call 'Butter', and a white pink-eyed female called 'Snowy'. I give them out-of-cage time frequently, and sometimes together. I thought I had seen the quickest sex act ever when I noticed Butter hopped on Snowy, and hopped off.

"Nah", I said. "Couldn't have been".

Imagine my complete shock and surprise when I went to refresh Snowy's food bowl today, and I hear 'squeak squeak squeak'! I looked at Snowy, cooing to her--"Are you ok, sweetie?" when I notice little wriggling naked bundles under her.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

From my careful count, she has had 11 babies. I moved her to a one-level cage with plenty of shreddable materials. She is very docile and let me handle her babies without any issues, though I handled them as little as possible so as not to stress her. 

Both parents are docile and friendly, and I'm sure the babies will be, also.

At this point, I am floored. I rarely have a male and a female; I usually keep two males in separate cages.

I have the usual dumb, first-time rat grandma questions. I thank anyone for advice in advance.

Is 11 too many? Will she cull them?
Should I feed her anything extra or special?
When will the babies be weaned, and should I take any role in this?
Will the males and females need to be separated?
Can the females stay with mom?

And lastly................what in the world am I going to do with 11 rats? Can I give them to a pet store?


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## Kitty (Nov 4, 2008)

You should never ever ever ever let them play together, because this can happen! It shouldn't be that much of a surprise. :/

11 isn't that bad usually. I don't know what you're used to feeding your rats, but they need to be eating a good quality lab block or Oxbow regal rat food, and ideally the mother should be getting at least 18% protein. It's best if you can give her extra protein during pregnancy, but it's a bit late for that now.

Once they are about 4 weeks old they should be weaned. Sometimes they take longer. Before 5 weeks you need to get the males out or they will be able to get females pregnant. The females can stay with the mom.

Hopefully you plan on keeping a male with dad once they're weaned, as playtime with other rats but being alone most of the time is not really good for them. :/ I'd advise against giving them to a pet store, you should try to find homes for them with responsible owners.


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## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

Kitty, thanks for the reply. I've been scouring forums so I can be a good rat grandma, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed..........and stupid. I'd like to keep a female with momma, but I've not had any luck keeping males together; maybe because they were the same age?

My goodness, I've got lots to learn. 

I'm currently feeding Nutriphase Rat/Mouse formula; the protein is listed at 16%. Fresh water always, and those yogurt treats for rats once or twice a week.

I've read that kitten milk replacement can be given to the babies when they are two weeks old? Introduced to them by wetting your fingers with it......

It's so hard for me not to just scoop them all up and hold them; they are precious even without fur. 

I thought about putting an ad on Craigslist, but am worried that snake owners might get a free meal for their pets instead of loving them.

Yes, I'm kicking myself right about now......... ;D


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## Kitty (Nov 4, 2008)

Don't be too hard on yourself, everyone makes mistakes.  You could also neuter the dad and have him live with the female. How much space are you giving the males? I have males of all ages living together and have never had a fight that drew blood. 

Mixes aren't great for rats as they tend to just pick out the things they like, and leave the rest. According to Petsmart's website (and assumign this is the food? http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753467 ) The top ingredient is alfalfa-based, which isn't good for rats. 

What you should look for is some Oxbow Regal rat, or even Mazuri if you can't order a food online. Rats don't always like Oxbow, and Mazuri isn't the best but they'll eat it. Both foods are usually carried at Petsmart, but your area might be a little different. If you feed them something like that, you can make them a grain mix (Google "Suebee's mix" for a common one) and give them a little variety. You can give the babies KMR but I don't really think you'd need to unless they seemed hungry a lot. You can also use soy infant formula. 

You can hold the babies, too. Wash your hands first so you don't get them sick, and don't keep them from momma for more then 5-10 minutes the first several weeks. It gets them used to people's hands and smells while they're still young.

It'd probably be smart to set an adoption fee for more then feeders cost in your area so people aren't tempted to take them for that purpose. You could try posting on this site (I think there's an adoption forum?) or try finding a rat rescue in your area that might be willing to help you find homes.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

I recently also had a litter of 11. The mother rat will take care of them on her own there is no need for you t do anything, I wouldnt even touch them the first few days jsut clean around them. The male should be removed immediatly and hopefully you already did or shes like to be pregnant again, they go into post partum estrus. I gave mine a little bit of peanut butter each day, this helps them get the protein they need for lactation without eating so much they bloat, yougart also works. If the mother isnt feeding them put them in a small space for a while until she has no choise but to sit on them and feed them as theres no where else to go. I would get my male netwered now (he can retain sperm for up to a month after his surgery) and when the babies are gone get her spayed. The babies will need to be gone at around 4 weeks becasue around that time they can become sexually active. Some pet stores will take them, I would look now for homes. Right now you probablly wont notice a big mess being created as the mother will take care of the mess. As the babies get older it will becme much more messy, adn smelly and you will need to clean the area several times a day to keep clean probablly depending on the material they lvie on. They will wean naturally and start to eat normal food on their own you will not need to do anything. When I got rid of mine at 4 weeks they were eating adn drinking normal food adn water but still suckiling mom ever now again but were fine when they left, no problems without having her milk. Good luck!!!


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## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

Kitty said:


> Don't be too hard on yourself, everyone makes mistakes.  You could also neuter the dad and have him live with the female. How much space are you giving the males? I have males of all ages living together and have never had a fight that drew blood.
> 
> Mixes aren't great for rats as they tend to just pick out the things they like, and leave the rest. According to Petsmart's website (and assumign this is the food? http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753467 ) The top ingredient is alfalfa-based, which isn't good for rats.
> 
> ...


Great info, and thank you! As far as space, I had the two males in a large birdcage, but they fought anyway. I'm going to have to come up with a couple of 'frankencages' like I saw another member on here do! 

Yes, that's the food I'm giving, and yes, I do notice they both pick out what they like and leave the rest. They both hate those little brown pellet things and won't touch them.

I'm going to talk to the pet shop, and also to the staff where my dogs' vet is--they may know people who want some cute ratkins! 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure they say........how true!

AMJ087, thank you, too for the great information!


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## Kitty (Nov 4, 2008)

http://www.rattycorner.com/odds/calc.shtml
Have you tried checking the dimensions with that? It could just be that they feel a bit cramped. Neutering can usually help them, too, but if you neuter them you could just buy/make a huge cage and let them live with the females. 

If you have trouble finding a good rat food, you can also use a high quality dog food. Avoderm is good (Some don't like using it because it's made with avodcado, I've used it before and not had trouble.) or there's Blue Buffalo or really any kind of food that doesn't use a lot of junk in it. Try to keep the protein at about 18%, though, as too much protein can cause problems. 

Good idea to check with vets! Especially check with any exotic vets who may have a lot of rat clients. Hopefully you can get lucky.  It helps to make sure the people have knowledge about how to care for the rats (Like, ideally you should adopt them out in same sex pairs.) just so then you know the babies have a good chance at getting a good home.

They are adorable little babies, I hope you post pictures of them as they grow! ;D


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## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

LOL

I will post pics in about two weeks!


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

bathory313 said:


> Is 11 too many? Will she cull them?


11 is not too many. Female rats have 12 teets, so there will be one extra even if all babies are feeding at the same time. She will cull them herself unless one is sick, injured, dying, or there is something wrong with her.



> Should I feed her anything extra or special?


Make sure she has PLENTY of water at all times, and her diet has sufficient calories. It takes a lot of work to produce milk for babies, and mother will need extra calories, protein, and calcium. Her diet over all should be richer than what you would normally feed her. Some suggested foods to supplement her with: scrambled or boiled egg, soy milk, kitten milk replacement formula, tofu, or bits of chicken. 



> When will the babies be weaned, and should I take any role in this?


Babies should be weaned at 5 weeks of age. You WILL have to separate the boys from the girls at this time. The boys can live with their father, but be careful during introductions. You mentioned not keeping males together successfully, but it is possible. Currently I have 8 males of varying ages (from 3 months to 21 months of age) living together. When I have a litter the weaned boys are introduced to my older males and live peacefully. This SHOULD be done with caution though, especially since you have had bad experiences in the past. If you do not intend to keep the males (I would recommend keeping at least one to keep the father company), you can keep them separate until they go to their new homes. If you introduce them to their father, you need to do so carefully, and with your bad experience I would wait until they are closer to 8 weeks of age before introductions.



> Will the males and females need to be separated?


Absolutely. If you don't, you'll end up with far more than 13 rats.



> Can the females stay with mom?


Yes.



> And lastly................what in the world am I going to do with 11 rats? Can I give them to a pet store?


You can take them to the pet store, if your conscience lets you. Or you can try to find them homes yourself. Remember, if they go to a pet store, they are just as likely to end up as snake food as they are to become pets (perhaps more so, depending on your location, how rats are viewed, and the pet store).






























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## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

Proud papa, Butter










Babies in a basket!









Handful of babies....I find it curious that it looks like they will all be dark, even though their parents are both light.


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## bathory313 (Nov 13, 2008)

I have two Papillons that I give a high-quality dogfood to; I gave Snowy some and she gobbled it up! I have just given her some soy milk, which we usually have in the house. She doesn't seem too interested in that, though......

Update: She has drunk the soy milk--I gave her about two ounces. She's happily chewing on the bowl.


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## jenmarie (Nov 13, 2008)

Kitty said:


> You should never ever ever ever let them play together, because this can happen! It shouldn't be that much of a surprise. :/
> 
> 11 isn't that bad usually. I don't know what you're used to feeding your rats, but they need to be eating a good quality lab block or Oxbow regal rat food, and ideally the mother should be getting at least 18% protein. It's best if you can give her extra protein during pregnancy, but it's a bit late for that now.


On the back of my Oxbow Regal Rat bag is the following: 
"Regal Rat is not intended for growing, gestating, or lactating rats. For a complete feeding management plan consult with a small animal veterinarian." 

After I discovered this, I still left some of this food in their cage, but I also provided them with some higher quality kitten food I got from Petsmart (Nutro or something like that). Just figured I'd add that in.


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## cami (Mar 15, 2009)

u should probably seperate them when they are 3 weeks old thats what i did with my babies. also yes u can give them to a pet store.


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## my_ratters (Mar 27, 2009)

cami said:


> u should probably seperate them when they are 3 weeks old thats what i did with my babies. also yes u can give them to a pet store.



umm thats to way to young i think i would when there at 5wks and the girls can stay with there mom untill you give them to the pet store or a good home


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Three weeks old is fair too young to even think about separating babies from their mother. They need to stay with her until around 5 weeks and then the boys will need to be separated.

I would also never recommend giving any babies to a pet store. You have no way of knowing what kind of home they will go to or whether they'll end up as snake food or not.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

This thread is 4 months old guys...


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Stace87 said:


> This thread is 4 months old guys...


Yeah I noticed that too, but bad information needs to be refuted no matter how 'late' it is given.


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## dodgingflames (Apr 1, 2009)

I realize the initial topic is over but, as far as separating the babies goes...

My babies stopped nursing on their own at 19 days. They completely ignored mama except to harass her after that. At that time I gave away 3 of the babies to their future owners. Those babies are now twice the size of the 3 I have left. So 3 weeks isn't always too young. 

I do not, however, recommend it as it could be fatal if they aren't weaned yet. 

Oh and as for holding the babies, you can hold them as soon as mom lets you xD


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Even if babies no longer appear to be feeding from the mother they should still stay with her till around 5 weeks old as it's really important for their social development.

Research has shown that 2-6 weeks is a crucial time in their mental and social development and to remove them early can be detrimental to this development and result in behavioural issues later.


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## dodgingflames (Apr 1, 2009)

No behavioural issues in any of the ones taken. Also the point was for them to be people rats not rat rats. They did go to people who have raised newborn rats in the past so I wasn't worried about their physical health and the fact that they trust their owners and other rats more than any of mine ever have is just a testament to how well they were raised even without their mom. 

Again, it is not optimal nor would I have given them to just anyone but it is no death sentence or anything.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

dodgingflames said:


> Also the point was for them to be people rats not rat rats.


I'm not sure I understand this statement, as surely rats need healthy social bonds with other rats to thrive first and foremost. They must be rat rats naturally and then they become people rats through trust and bonding with their owner.


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## dodgingflames (Apr 1, 2009)

Came out weird, sorry. They do have companions who they were raised with after being taken home but they didn't want them to depend on other rats so much and be exceptionally people-friendly. The friendliest rats I know were hand-raised from birth. Sorry hope that makes more sense?


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## marshmallowfriend (Apr 16, 2009)

> It shouldn't be that much of a surprise.


Uh, I agree. And now you're talking about giving them all to a pet store? :-X


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