# Submissive squeaking



## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

How much submissive squeaking is too much? Any time I play fight with Rasputin these days, he squeaks as if to demonstrate to me that he's the submissive and he's giving in. Is this common? He's within the first two weeks of his hormones kicking in - how long should I expect this to last, will it level out, bla bla bla?

Still no hormonal aggression, though I expect the high strung such and such is coming from a place of hormones since it kicked up the last two weeks more than anything.

Also, he looks like he bathed in cooking oil with the shine that's on him. I'm surprised he's not turning into walking acne. Even my testosterone didn't make me glisten this much as a teenager - lol.


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## LaTortue (Oct 17, 2012)

The squeaking isn't necessarily submissive behavior, to me it sounds like you're doing something he doesn't like and he's asking you to stop. What are you doing when you "play fight" with him? How old is Rasputin? Male hormones start kicking in between 6-9 months of age, sometimes a bit earlier at 5 month, but you can't really pinpoint the exact time at which it starts. As far as how much it will affect their behavior and for how long, thats going to vary quite a bit from rat to rat. In my experience, hormonal aggression is definitely not something that occurs with every male rat while going through puberty, and actual hormonal aggression (vs. hormonal behavior) is an exception, not the rule. Is his coat actually greasy or just very shiny?


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Hormones kick in when they hit the age of sexual maturity, at about 5-6 weeks old. He's about 7 weeks at this point in time. Regardless of whether I'm play fighting or simply stroking him slightly, he will squeak. Trust me, I'm not injuring him. I barely apply pressure at all. He also squeaks if I touch just anywhere, it's not really a specific spot.


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## LaTortue (Oct 17, 2012)

unlikelyfather said:


> Hormones kick in when they hit the age of sexual maturity, at about 5-6 weeks old. He's about 7 weeks at this point in time. Regardless of whether I'm play fighting or simply stroking him slightly, he will squeak. Trust me, I'm not injuring him. I barely apply pressure at all. He also squeaks if I touch just anywhere, it's not really a specific spot.


The male-specific hormones that you're talking about kick in around 6-9 months of age, like I said. I will find sources confirming this and link them if you'd like me to. I didn't mean to imply that you were injuring him, but that if he's squeaking, he doesn't like whatever is going on at that moment, regardless of whether you're physically hurting him or not.


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## Smilebud (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm guessing that because Ras is wild, he would squeak more when you guys interact. He might just be a vocal little boy, DJ is around that age and he complains about everything  Also some rats just don't like to be bugged.. even if they initiate it. When are you planning to get him nuetered? (possibly unrelated, I just want to know )


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Squeeking is good as long as he keeps coming back for more play! He's playing with you and he accepts your alpha status. And with a wild rat thats so the right way to err! If he grows up a little overly submissive and a little too docile he won't need to be neutered and he'll make a great friend. If things go the other way, you may lose your pal forever. I know you are not beating him up, and wild rats can take lots of abuse, I think he just wants to make sure you understand he's only playing and respects your authority as in nature adult wild males can be really dangerous to the little guys.

Just because he is wild, don't assume he's going to grow up to be a monster. Victorians kept tame pet rats and wild stock is all they had to work with. 

Yes from my experience my girl got really wild during play, but it was mostly because she was so capable, moreso than she was agressive. Maybe my domestics would have jumped on me from 3 feet away if they could have, but just didn't have the ability.

Stay with him, keep handling him, show him all the affection you can and if he starts pushing you be prepared to push back. If not, so much the better.

Don't forget to teach him his commands, when he gets more able and capable you are most likely never going to be able to catch him. If you haven't actually chased one, you have no clue how fast a wild rat can run or how far he can jump or what he can climb or squish under. My part-wild came on command and if she didn't there was nothing I could really do about it. So the fact that she was very obedient made life together much more pleasant. I could simply let her freerange the house and call her when I wanted her... This was a great deal for her and good for me too. Practice, practice, practice your commands when he's a big boy and can evaporate into thin air they will really come in handy.

Being a pet wolf isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as he's a friendly and obedient pet wolf.

How have his physical abilities developed so far, you once commented that he was a little small for his age... How's his jumping and climbing ability and how well is he running? By about 10 weeks old he should be nearly fully capable. So he should be able to jump off a bed or desk, climb extension chords or drapes run up and down the side of a cage with horizontal bars and tear out along a wall like a bat out of h... By 7 weeks he should be at least as capable as a full grown domestic, if startled he should bounce up several inches and tear off either to you or other cover with serious rat speed.

How did you come across him, is there any chance he was rejected by his mom as a runt? In any event, wild rats don't show off, they actually prefer that you don't see them doing freaky stuff, but if he dosen't occaisionally start demonstrating his special abilities a vet checkup might be in order at about 12 weeks. If he's normal and healthy he'll be one impressive animal by then.

Do warn the vet first and introduce him to anyone slowly, (talk, smell, then touch) wild rats are one owner or one family dogs, they can bite fast and hard and often. You don't want to find out if your insurance covers wild rat bites.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

I've been researching the heck out of this, as my two boys are getting there. From what I have read on numerous sites 12 wks if is the early side but is not uncommon for the hormone boost to begin. Apparently it hits its peak generally at about 5-6 mos. I can tell you my boys are at just shy of 4 months and their behavior towards each other has had a marked shift in the past few days. I've been videoing it because it is such a difference. I wouldn't say it's over the line or aggressive and I have no concerns as I expected this, but the battle for dominance has absolutely begun. So, a long winded way of saying that, at least anecdotally, the testosterone has begun to visibly kick in. As for Ras, I know you're not hurting him. I agree, though, that he seems uncomfortable with what's going on. That said, I'm thinking it's entirely possible that he's doing with you what my boys have done with each other all along...protest squeaks. They do it during play but also when lounging. If one steps on the other he'll squeak a little grunty squeak like "dude, really?!". They do it with each other all the time and with me occasionally when I move them, pet them and they are in the zone and I've killed the moment. I suspect that may be what Ras is doing with you. And it means you're just bugging him and as his mischief member, he's grumbling about it. Sounds to me like you've become his annoying brother. . As long as they are high pitched squeals, he's not in discomfort likely. I suppose we can't rule out an injury we're unaware of...but I think the former is more likely.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Smilebud said:


> I'm guessing that because Ras is wild, he would squeak more when you guys interact. He might just be a vocal little boy, DJ is around that age and he complains about everything  Also some rats just don't like to be bugged.. even if they initiate it. When are you planning to get him nuetered? (possibly unrelated, I just want to know )


I want to make sure that he gets a nice, healthy dose of hormones, so I was planning to wait a few more weeks. The holiday season is almost upon us so if he doesn't develop any crazy aggression I may postpone it to the new year just so I have more money for the procedure.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

gal5150 said:


> I've been researching the heck out of this, as my two boys are getting there. From what I have read on numerous sites 12 wks if is the early side but is not uncommon for the hormone boost to begin. Apparently it hits its peak generally at about 5-6 mos. I can tell you my boys are at just shy of 4 months and their behavior towards each other has had a marked shift in the past few days. I've been videoing it because it is such a difference. I wouldn't say it's over the line or aggressive and I have no concerns as I expected this, but the battle for dominance has absolutely begun. So, a long winded way of saying that, at least anecdotally, the testosterone has begun to visibly kick in. As for Ras, I know you're not hurting him. I agree, though, that he seems uncomfortable with what's going on. That said, I'm thinking it's entirely possible that he's doing with you what my boys have done with each other all along...protest squeaks. They do it during play but also when lounging. If one steps on the other he'll squeak a little grunty squeak like "dude, really?!". They do it with each other all the time and with me occasionally when I move them, pet them and they are in the zone and I've killed the moment. I suspect that may be what Ras is doing with you. And it means you're just bugging him and as his mischief member, he's grumbling about it. Sounds to me like you've become his annoying brother. . As long as they are high pitched squeals, he's not in discomfort likely. I suppose we can't rule out an injury we're unaware of...but I think the former is more likely.


I think you're right. 

It may be because he's wild that those hormones have begun to kick in earlier or maybe rat puberty always looks like this, but his fur looks almost slick from the amount of oil in it. It came out of nowhere, right around when his feistier playing and more vocal squeaking came into play. 

I don't believe he was a runt, to answer Rat Daddy's question, simply because when he was discovered he was far from his nest and his parents didn't come looking for him - leading me to believe that he wandered out of it. When he was warmed up he became quite the adventurer and crawled everywhere, so I think he slipped away from his parents.

Considering the fact that he was hand-reared, he may also be on the stunted side. His testicles are fully dropped, as I tell him every day - he "looks like a proper rat now", since his facial features are shifting from baby to young adult and he's going to be bigger than my hand soon. (Right now, he and my hand are very well-matched playmates.) When he was a baby, he looked more like a miniature river otter than a rat. 

I don't know about his jumping abilities, as he doesn't practice them too much. I've tried to encourage him to stay in my immediate vicinity. I can't afford to let him free range in this house, and there's no room that can be rat proofed. I have two large dogs that are fairly prey-driven, and way too many holes, and a wild rat population (in the garage, the walls, and the basement, which he could feasibly find a way into) that would surely attack him -- for his safety and my sanity, it is totally out of the question. 

However, don't let this make you believe he's not getting out. He spends most of the day with me instead of in his cage. As I mentioned in another thread, I have a hoodie that I wear which he hides inside and is carted around that way. Since he jumped off my shoulder all those weeks ago and escaped for a full 24 hours, I have avoided having him out without a hoodie on to the best of my ability. 

Now, when he spooks - and Rat Daddy is right about that, at least, because certain things send him scattering though he's started tuning out loud noises like music and televisions because he's realized they aren't coming after him (in the beginning you could see him panicking.. Now I catch him napping in my sleeves when they're on.) - instead of that calculating fuzzy brain looking around for dark spots in the immediate area, he dives down my shirt or back into the hood. It's his first instinct to hide there and groom my hair or lick my neck. He also listens for my reassurance of "it's okay" to mean "it's safe".

The bond we have is to the point of where he'll get distressed to be in his cage even a foot away from me. He'll run all over the cage, trying to find an escape to come be with me, and finally lay in his hammock and watch me with a face like "why do I have to be back here". As it is, he falls asleep on me and in my sleeves a huge amount of time. At first this didn't happen, now it's happening 4-5 times a day in between searching for food (/stealing mine) and taking sips of water from where he's hiding in my hood. 

I'm glad to hear that the squeaking is normal and my fingers are crossed that he won't become hormonally aggressive as this continues. I know it's a small chance, but if I can spare him an invasive surgery then it's something I am interested in. I don't believe in having surgeries if nothing is wrong, you know?


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

*meant to say as long as they aren't high pitched squeels. Darn auto correct, where are you when I actually need some help.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Studies have shown that domestic rats that become alphas develop more hormones and become more agressive. I'm betting that the same is true for wilds. I'm hoping along with you that proper parenting will prevent neutering.

I just adopted a 7 month old neglected girl, she won't leave my side or range out of sight of me, but I'm betting that she's really afraid of being left alone again. 

On the other hand every normal healthy rat I've ever raised slowly started freeranging further and further as they got older and more confident. If your house can't allow for free ranging perhaps you might want to take a page out of my shoulder ratting guide and find an outdoor safe site for him to explore and romp about at. I can't see any real difference in the specifications required of the safe site except it should most likely be larger just in case. My part wild did great at the safe site, in fact she actually stayed closer to us than my shoulder rat did. And she was more reluctant to run out over open space then my domestic. 

While I believe you could be able to avoid the neuter, I really have my doubts that a big healthy boy rattie (wild or domestic) isn't going to want to explore his universe sooner or later. 

And by the way... when your little boy "ran away" he came back and found you on his own and he was much more capable than some people thought he would be. I know you are being a good dad and you worry about him, but don't underestimate him, if he's healthy and normal he's going to grow up to be a freaking amazing competent animal you can be very proud of. Your little bugger very well might grow up to kick your wild rats to the curb and out of his house. 

And by the way, unless you have all metal cable wires in your walls, those wild rats are a real fire hazard.


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