# My Roof Rat Tiny Tim



## tameyourself

I volunteer at a wildlife center and somebody brought us what they thought was a baby squirrel. Well, turns out it was a tiny baby wild rat. We couldn't find anybody to take him in so I decided that I would. I am glad I did now 
When he came in he weighed in at 10 grams and still had his eyes closed. Now he weighs 54 grams! He is a sweetheart although very skiddish. He is very active and loves to climb and jump. I am hoping that he will remain tame as I feel he is not a good candidate to release since he has been raised by a human.
I was advised to get him a female companion and then get him neutered, I am still planning on doing that but I have already gotten him a friend named Little Lucy.

Here are some pictures.

When I first got him:



The day he opened his eyes:



Growing up:







New friend Little Lucy:


From the other day, playing on the towel rack:


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## Grawrisher

He's kind of adorable


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## Mitsy

He's so cute an you shouldn't breed him breeding for most animals isn't fun and also him being a wild rat the babies would be half wild and may have wild rats traits. 


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## Grawrisher

The original post said e was getting neutered...


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## Finnebon

Lots of people don't read posts fully it seems haha.

He is SO cute though, look at those ears!!! Will you be waiting until he is fixed before he can meet little Lucy? Rats can breed as young as 4-ish weeks, and it's advised to not let boys and girls be together after they're 5 weeks old and he looks like he is close to that age.

He is so adorable, I love him! Lucy is beautiful too. It's interesting how different a little roof rat is compared to a domestic rat, even when they're still tiny babies. Best of luck with him, keep us updated please!!


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## tameyourself

Finnebon said:


> Lots of people don't read posts fully it seems haha.
> 
> He is SO cute though, look at those ears!!! Will you be waiting until he is fixed before he can meet little Lucy? Rats can breed as young as 4-ish weeks, and it's advised to not let boys and girls be together after they're 5 weeks old and he looks like he is close to that age.
> 
> He is so adorable, I love him! Lucy is beautiful too. It's interesting how different a little roof rat is compared to a domestic rat, even when they're still tiny babies. Best of luck with him, keep us updated please!!


He has already met Little Lucy and they get a long great. I have done my research and roof rats can't breed until they are 3-5 month old. So I still have a little bit of time before I have to get him neutered. He is currently about 5 weeks old now. Hi testicles have just now dropped and still look quite small so I don't even know if the vet can preform the surgery yet.

They are very different!

Also, I learned from research on the internet and from other people that they can not produce viable babies anyways since they are different species. They could possibly get pregnant but the babies would not live most likely. I don't want to try it out for myself though so he will be getting neutered soon.


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## Piff

Congrats on your new pair, they're both so cute! He lookes like a little bat, with those huge ears  Adorable!
Do they get along well?


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## Daize

He's very cute. You little girl is cute too. I think they'll be great friends. 

I love their ears.


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## saratherussiandog

Aww.. cute. Keep updating,this is going to be interesting.


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## cagedbirdsinging

Adorable! You are going to have your hands full. Definitely contact Rat Daddy, who has experience with rats on the wild side.


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## evander

They are both really cute!!

I hope the internet is correct about the 3-5 months old before he can impregnate.


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## allieykatt

He is adorable!and i love his ears. have you noticed any behavior differences between him and fancys?

Allonsy!


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## Rat Daddy

We don't get many if any roof rats in NJ. They are more of a tropical species also called the ship rat, plague rat, black rat or Rattus rattus, They can be identified mostly by being smaller, sleeker and having no hair on their ears. Your rat looks very much like a black rat, but I've only seen them in photos, so I'll let someone who knows them up close and personal do the positive ID. And you absolutely need a positive ID before you proceed. For my further remarks, I'm going to assume you are right and you do have a roof rat or a black rat...

Our common domestic rats are Rattus norvegicus also knows as the brown rat and in fact they are a completely different species. Brown rats and black rats have never interbred to my knowledge, in fact wild brown rats usually kill wild black rats on sight. 

On the other hand I've seen video's of domestic brown rats playing with captive raised black rats. So your roof rat and your brown rat can actually become best buddies without worrying about an accidental litter. Pretty much the most you have to worry about is an overly aggressive brown rat killing your roof rat. Domestic brown rats can learn to live with a variety of other animals, so you may have a great friendship blooming, but I would be very very careful about any other introductions to brown rats. My part-wild rat killed and ate mice, your roof rat would just have been another snack to her. She was quite lethal and killed in one bite or a flurry of bites.

Of some particular note, when the fancy started in Great Britain the black rat and the brown rat were in serious competition for who would be the standard pet rat. Rat shows had categories for both. And it could have gone either way. Now roof rats are pretty much only brought into the fancy by being wild caught as pups in the northern hemisphere and English speaking regions. Most roof rats that people claim to find are actually shabby wild brown rats, but in warmer regions, like yours black rat pup finds do happen. Brown rats tend to nest in basements while black rats prefer attics.

Roof rats are unlike brown rats in that they drink very little and are better climbers. They often build their nests above ground in roofs, hedges and trees very much like squirrels. As I understand it, they can tolerate higher temps and would make a better pet in parts of the world where it gets hot.

Chances are pretty good you could re-introduce your roof rat into the wild successfully, but as it is an invasive species, it might be unlawful where you live to do so. But as roof rats have been successfully raised in domestication I can't see where you would be obligated to do so, either for the rat's sake or for environmental reasons. In fact a healthy domestic strain of rattus would be desirable in the fancy. Many people live in hot areas and they would benefit from having rattie friends that don't need constant air conditioning.

There are very few if any on line resources regarding roof rat behavior in domestication. From what I understand they can be somewhat shy and nocturnal. As an arboreal species, I would expect them to be fast and agile and great climbers. I'd also assume they have pretty good eyesight and night vision. There are several vids on line of them in an Indian Temple, where they appear to be quite social and human friendly or tolerant. I would expect some quirky behavior, but in the absence of better information, treat your black rat like you would a live-in wild brown rat. More of a pet wolf than a pet dog.

Wild brown rats have a tendency to become one owner or one family rats. They don't like people, but make an exception for their human friends and family. The humans they know and trust can handle them and play with them very much like any domestic rat. But they often bite strangers or when abruptly surprised. Until you see how your roof rat reacts to strangers, assume that it might go badly and have the new person talk to your rat, then let your rat sniff them and then touch them. Don't expect to let a stranger care for your rat if you are away. My part wild rat was also very aggressive in play fighting, no she didn't bite, but she did spring into my face and mock bite me on a few occasions. She was having fun and I certainly didn't get hurt, but it was more than a little frightening at first.

As roof rats don't drink much they can be tricky to medicate, and you can expect to have trouble finding a vet or getting good medical information. On the up side most wild rats of any kind are built tough and hopefully you may never need to treat your rat or need a vet. But it might be something worth looking into before you actually have a crisis and no one will see your rat.

I would add a footnote here. As the roof rat is a different species than our brown rats, I would assume it may have different nutritional requirements, possibly more like a mouse or even a squirrel. If you are feeding it rat blocks, I'd consider supplementing it's diet with a variety of foods until you can work out what it should be eating. It's better to have a slightly pudgy rat than one lacking some essential nutrients. If the wild roof rat is like the wild brown rat, it will only taste a new food when you first introduce it, it will wait to see if it is poison before eating more of the same food the next day, so introducing any new foods will be a two or three day process.

We have a member from Columbia S.A, WhiteWidow, who posted that she had some experience with black rats which would be more common there and maybe she can help when it comes to feeding your boy. As far as the English speaking world goes black rats are common in India so that might not be a bad place to look for more information if it is not commonly available in the US or UK. I'm going to assume that there is literature on black rats in captivity in England from the turn of the last century, whether it is available on line is another story.

You have an interesting rat, and as tropical areas urbanize and smaller pets become more popular there, one that might have a real future in the fancy. You should be successful as others have before, but collectively the English speaking world has forgotten more about black rats than we recall. There are still a few folks that keep and even breed them, none commercially and two museums in England that still maintain colonies, not to mention tropical areas like India and CA and SA where they are raised, but most likely as reptile food. I would give you one word of caution, choose any advise you get carefully, there is a lot of misinformation out there about the "plague rat". Your best sources are people that actually keep and raise them, or historical data from when they were in the fancy. Even much of what I'm writing is an educated guess based mostly on a different species of rat, so it's better than nothing but not really "good" info. 

Mostly, don't be afraid to share your experiences here. Rat Forum is one of the most progressive rat sites on line and If I'm right about the black rat staging a come back in the hobby with more affluent urban tropical people than ever before looking for loving pets, your observations may benefit future black rat owners in the English speaking world. Although black rat owners are too small a niche to have their own forums, we would all benefit from welcoming you and yours to ours.

I look forward to hearing more about Tiny Tim in the future. Best luck to you and your pack.


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## Hey-Fay

He is all sorts of adorable! He is lucky to have you! I wish you and your mischief the best of luck, and like Rat Daddy said, do post your experiences with Tim and Lucy!


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## Rat Daddy

I forgot to address the getting neutered issue. This is something I would definitely recommend against! 

Finding a vet that has ever neutered or even operated on a roof rat is going to be a challenge. But for money, I'll bet you will find someone that will try. I've never heard about hormonal aggression issues in roof rats, but there is a lot we don't know about them anymore in common circulation.

I'd honestly just work with Tiny Tim to get him and keep him socialized. I don't think it's possible for Lucy to conceive with him or if he would even be interested in her that way. And if you do think you have an issue I'd spay Lucy. It's a safer surgery as a vet is more likely to know what he's doing. 

And by the way, if after you confirm that Tim is a roof rat and he does get Lucy pregnant and the union actually does produce viable offspring, please put me on top of the long list and sign me up for a couple pair. If they aren't mules, they will be a completely new species "Fancy Dumbo roof rats"... I don't believe there's any chance it could ever happen, but I'd hate to miss the opportunity to be one of the first persons in the world to ever have them. Imagine a dumbo shoulder rat I could take out on hot days with fancy markings and great eyesight... I'm already drooling. Rather I'm day dreaming...

I'm not advocating you try to breed Tim and Lucy, just to be clear.


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## tameyourself

Piff said:


> Congrats on your new pair, they're both so cute! He lookes like a little bat, with those huge ears  Adorable!
> Do they get along well?


They get a long great! They are always sleeping together.


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## tameyourself

allieykatt said:


> He is adorable!and i love his ears. have you noticed any behavior differences between him and fancys?
> 
> Allonsy!


Yes, he is much more active. Lucy likes to sit in my lap and have me pet her while Tim prefers to run around and explore. Tim is also a great climber and jumper!


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## tameyourself

Thank for all the great info Rat Daddy! I have already noticed that Tim does not like strangers, he is not aggressive, just scared of them. I should not have trouble finding a vet to treat him as I have already told my personal vet about Tim and I'm sure he would treat him. He deals in exotics and has experience with rats, I'm not sure that he has ever treated a roof rat... 
I am actually giving Tim some medication right now, he is getting amoxicillin because he has been sneezing a lot and I was concerned. The vet staff at the wildlife shelter gave me the medication.
I agree that I need to find out more about what his diet should be. He is currently getting oxbow rat food as well as fruits and veggies, some egg, and a few table scraps (hey they eat human trash in the wild right?). I think I am going to introduce some insects into his diet like mealworms to see if he likes them.


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## tameyourself

Hey-Fay said:


> He is all sorts of adorable! He is lucky to have you! I wish you and your mischief the best of luck, and like Rat Daddy said, do post your experiences with Tim and Lucy!


I will post everything on here for sure! I'm glad I found the forum


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> I forgot to address the getting neutered issue. This is something I would definitely recommend against!
> 
> Finding a vet that has ever neutered or even operated on a roof rat is going to be a challenge. But for money, I'll bet you will find someone that will try. I've never heard about hormonal aggression issues in roof rats, but there is a lot we don't know about them anymore in common circulation.
> 
> I'd honestly just work with Tiny Tim to get him and keep him socialized. I don't think it's possible for Lucy to conceive with him or if he would even be interested in her that way. And if you do think you have an issue I'd spay Lucy. It's a safer surgery as a vet is more likely to know what he's doing.
> 
> And by the way, if after you confirm that Tim is a roof rat and he does get Lucy pregnant and the union actually does produce viable offspring, please put me on top of the long list and sign me up for a couple pair. If they aren't mules, they will be a completely new species "Fancy Dumbo roof rats"... I don't believe there's any chance it could ever happen, but I'd hate to miss the opportunity to be one of the first persons in the world to ever have them. Imagine a dumbo shoulder rat I could take out on hot days with fancy markings and great eyesight... I'm already drooling. Rather I'm day dreaming...
> 
> I'm not advocating you try to breed Tim and Lucy, just to be clear.


I am super worried about the issue of getting him neutered. I have found a few vets that will do the surgery including my own. But I have not yet talked with them about it in detail, I have only gotten prices so far. I would feel so awful if he didn't make it through surgery!
The only reason I got him a female companion is because Debbie the Rat Lady advised me it would be better. I didn't want to get a male and have them fighting. Now that I have already done it I feel unsure about my decision, but it is too late now to change anything, they seem to really like each other. It would be great if they wouldn't breed at all and I didn't have to worry about any surgeries. If they do breed and have babies I will be sure to let you have some!

So what do you think the best way to confirm that he is indeed a roof rat? I sent pictures to Debbie the Rat Lady and she told me he is a roof rat.


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## Grawrisher

If Debbie the rat lady is a rat expert I would say that's a reliable source, you could also take him to a university, a professor in the biology department would be able identify him I would think 


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## Rat Daddy

There are some on line web pages that show the difference, which would give you a reasonable idea. A call to a local exterminator will also help you to confirm that roof rats are indeed in your area and someone that works there might have lots of experience dealing with both roof and brown rats, if you can't otherwise find an expert. Good exterminators know their adversaries. I know with females they have a different number of teats, (rats not exterminators) but I'm not sure about how males present. 

Although you take very nice photos, pics can deceive, what looks thin and sleek to me can just be my screen resolution playing tricks with your pics. But like I said once you confirm my very best assumption that roof rats and brown rats don't interbreed you can relax and not worry about getting him fixed. And it's no surprise to me that vets will give you a price for a surgery they have never performed. I'll also guess that there aren't 100 people today alive that can tell you exactly what will happen to Tim's disposition or health even if the surgery is a success with any degree of certainty.

Wild rats in a family situation is a real stretch of their psychological capacity to adapt. Tim is living on the edge of his instinctual distrust of you in order to be your friend. Every fiber of his being is telling him he's in the wrong place doing something he shouldn't be doing. But he was raised by you and he no doubt loves you. A little rough manhandling by your vet's staff might very well push him over the edge and he might become antisocial. With a wild brown rat, the rule is always be predictable and keep his life as pleasant and happy as you can. You want to challenge any rat with activities, so they don't get bored, but keep in mind wild rats are wired for fight or flight, so you want activities that don't over stress them like giving them fun stuff to climb and hidden treats to forage for. They like lots of room to play but prefer if there are hiding places nearby for them to destress and unwind too. My part wild rat liked to meet new people, but she insisted on a very strict protocol. The person had to talk to her from about 3 feet away in a soft voice. Then she had to sniff them. Then she would lower her head and expect to be skritched or petted. Any break in protocol and someone was risking getting bit. Over time and with gentle nurturing a wild rat can really evolve. When I called my rats, my part wild was the first to show up and not to my foot like my other rats... she would climb up an extension chord or run right up the wall and appear on my desk right in front of my nose out of nowhere. Then she would dive off my desk and evaporate into thin air again. She loved sneaking about and being unseen, as she came when she was called I have no idea who she was hiding from, but she loved hiding and being invisible. Spotting her and letting her know I saw her kept her life challenging. She would spend much of her time finding new hiding places and nooks and crannies to leer at me from. You wouldn't believe the places I found her. She also sliced holes into the underside of every piece of furniture in the house so she could more easily evaporate.

Wild rats might be built for action and wired for excitement, but down deep they are easily seduced by the good life.


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## Dinoclor

Make sure you keep us updated on how Tim develops. If he really is a roof rat (He certainly looks like one), it'll be interesting to see how he compares to Lucy. I'm excited to see what comes out of this.


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## tameyourself

Grawrisher said:


> If Debbie the rat lady is a rat expert I would say that's a reliable source, you could also take him to a university, a professor in the biology department would be able identify him I would think
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think she is right about him being a roof rat. I found this page that describes the differences between the roof rat and the norway rat. Since I also have a domestic (norway) rat I can tell that they look very different from each other. http://icwdm.org/handbook/rodents/RoofRats.asp


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> There are some on line web pages that show the difference, which would give you a reasonable idea. A call to a local exterminator will also help you to confirm that roof rats are indeed in your area and someone that works there might have lots of experience dealing with both roof and brown rats, if you can't otherwise find an expert. Good exterminators know their adversaries. I know with females they have a different number of teats, (rats not exterminators) but I'm not sure about how males present.
> 
> Although you take very nice photos, pics can deceive, what looks thin and sleek to me can just be my screen resolution playing tricks with your pics. But like I said once you confirm my very best assumption that roof rats and brown rats don't interbreed you can relax and not worry about getting him fixed. And it's no surprise to me that vets will give you a price for a surgery they have never performed. I'll also guess that there aren't 100 people today alive that can tell you exactly what will happen to Tim's disposition or health even if the surgery is a success with any degree of certainty.
> 
> Wild rats in a family situation is a real stretch of their psychological capacity to adapt. Tim is living on the edge of his instinctual distrust of you in order to be your friend. Every fiber of his being is telling him he's in the wrong place doing something he shouldn't be doing. But he was raised by you and he no doubt loves you. A little rough manhandling by your vet's staff might very well push him over the edge and he might become antisocial. With a wild brown rat, the rule is always be predictable and keep his life as pleasant and happy as you can. You want to challenge any rat with activities, so they don't get bored, but keep in mind wild rats are wired for fight or flight, so you want activities that don't over stress them like giving them fun stuff to climb and hidden treats to forage for. They like lots of room to play but prefer if there are hiding places nearby for them to destress and unwind too. My part wild rat liked to meet new people, but she insisted on a very strict protocol. The person had to talk to her from about 3 feet away in a soft voice. Then she had to sniff them. Then she would lower her head and expect to be skritched or petted. Any break in protocol and someone was risking getting bit. Over time and with gentle nurturing a wild rat can really evolve. When I called my rats, my part wild was the first to show up and not to my foot like my other rats... she would climb up an extension chord or run right up the wall and appear on my desk right in front of my nose out of nowhere. Then she would dive off my desk and evaporate into thin air again. She loved sneaking about and being unseen, as she came when she was called I have no idea who she was hiding from, but she loved hiding and being invisible. Spotting her and letting her know I saw her kept her life challenging. She would spend much of her time finding new hiding places and nooks and crannies to leer at me from. You wouldn't believe the places I found her. She also sliced holes into the underside of every piece of furniture in the house so she could more easily evaporate.
> 
> Wild rats might be built for action and wired for excitement, but down deep they are easily seduced by the good life.


I found this page that has a chart describing the difference and it seems to me that Tim is a roof rat. http://icwdm.org/handbook/rodents/RoofRats.asp

The pics don't deceive, he is very thin and sleek compared to Lucy.
I really don't want to get him neutered but I will if I have to. One vet I spoke to said he could preform the surgery but he has only done it 4 times in his 22 year long career! Doesn't sound like a good idea to me to go with that vet...


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## tameyourself

Hi everybody, I thought I'd give an update on my rats! Tim and Lucy are doing great. Tim is still very friendly although very skiddish. The 2 get a long great. Lucy also seems to protect them. Cute story... I had a friend over and showed her the rats. They were both in their hammock and Tim was a little bit scared. Lucy then covered him with her entire body to protect him! I wish I could have gotten a picture of it. I did however take some cute videos of Tim. I'm not sure if they will work on here but I'm gonna try.


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## nanashi7

Adorable!!
"I'm just gonna...take...this blanket..."

Love those big ol ears! I sorta wish they were domesticated!


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## tameyourself

nanashi7 said:


> Adorable!!
> "I'm just gonna...take...this blanket..."
> 
> Love those big ol ears! I sorta wish they were domesticated!


I know right? It was so funny of him to do that. I wonder where he was taking it?


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## nanashi7

To his box, probably. I love how he waited for you to back out and sorta looked at you like he was gonna be sneaky.


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## tameyourself

Here is another video!


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## nanashi7

He is so speedy, sneaky, and jumpy! Adorable. I bet free range can be a nightmare.


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## tameyourself

nanashi7 said:


> He is so speedy, sneaky, and jumpy! Adorable. I bet free range can be a nightmare.


Yes, free range worries me so we only do it in the bathroom. I am afraid he will get started and go hide some place and I'll never be able to find him again!


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## nanashi7

I bet! When mine were littler, I used the bathroom and blocked the hallway outside it by closing doors and using a large mirror to block it's entry?


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## tameyourself

I use a towel to put under the door just in case they try to squeeze under it. He is still pretty small, I wonder how big he is going to get?


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## nanashi7

Are your girls full-grown? http://helid.digicollection.org/documents/h0213e/p263.gif http://www.uspesttexas.com/resources/droppings.jpg That is a drawingbut maybe helpful?

More gruesome: http://www.rpleepestcontrol.com/content/images/PestInfo/mice/roofnorwayrat.jpg


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## tameyourself

nanashi7 said:


> Are your girls full-grown? http://helid.digicollection.org/documents/h0213e/p263.gif http://www.uspesttexas.com/resources/droppings.jpg That is a drawingbut maybe helpful?
> 
> More gruesome: http://www.rpleepestcontrol.com/content/images/PestInfo/mice/roofnorwayrat.jpg


That first drawing is a great one for comparison! He is definitely Rattus rattus! My girl is not yet full grown, they are both around 8 weeks old. Actually the girl is probably a week or 2 younger than him and is already larger than him.


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## nanashi7

This might help then:http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?27262-How-Big-Are-Full-Grown-Female-Rats-Pics-PLZ


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## Rat Daddy

I am actually so not surprised Tim is doing so well. Accounts from the early years of the rat fancy put the roof rat in the lead for becoming *the* pet rat.

The brown rat came in white and then black and then other colors which made them more popular in the novelty driven hobby. Much of the work with pet rats was being done in England and Europe where the roof rats ability to withstand higher temps and drink very little water didn't matter and the commercial breeders for scientific experimental rats picked up on the easier to handle and identify albino brown rat. World war 1 put a crimp into almost every fancy or hobby and when the fancy bounced back the roof rat was largely forgotten. To make matters worse in England the brown rat did a great job of out-competing and exterminating most roof rats. 

And lets be honest... brown rats do make great pets!

But if not for a twist of fate, roof rats might be the common pet rat and the brown rat might not be the domesticated one, it was once too close to call. So I really expected you to do well with Tim if you put in the time.

Only comment, I'm not so sure the bathroom is the best place to free range a roof rat... Roof rats are pretty arboreal like squirrels, they love to climb and jump and they have lots of energy to burn off. I've only ever seen a few vids of people with roof rats but those I've seen had the rats literally bounding about in large rooms. These critters can really move and really jump. Hopefully you can become more confident about working with Tim so you can get him into a larger space for free range. It might be important for his health to get lots of exercise.

As a shoulder ratter, I couldn't even imagine how cool it would be to work with a rat with such great eyesight and outdoor open space capability. Not that I'm recommending you try it with Tim! It really is cool just to see a roof rat back in a human home situation and doing so well. And as Tim is, for now, a real novelty it would be a real shame to lose all of the things we can re-learn from him to a silly mistake.

It's been 100 years since we added much knowledge on this species indoors, and I suspect we forgot more collectively than we recall... please keep us posted on how he is doing. For people that live in hot climates you may be looking at the rat of the future.


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## Grawrisher

I want one!!!!!


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## Rat Daddy

Before anyone starts running out trapping roof rats.... It was recorded that these rats generally bit less and with much ferocity than the brown rat. A black rat bite was likened to a mouse bite rather than a brown rat bite... still... 

You would need to find very young pups to start working with, it will be very time consuming and at best your first few generations are likely to be one owner rats that will be very shy around strangers and more than a little bit high strung.

As to one other issue... these ARE the infamous plague rats of history. And while there are only a few rodent borne illnesses commonly associated with black rats or other wild rodents currently in circulation. There are still a few places where it would be ill-advised to collect wild specimens of any rodent, the US Rocky Mountain region for example.

Lastly the species may be subject to genetic fading. Recent attempts to revive the roof rat fancy from UK museum and zoo populations failed because their genes were too threadbare to sample from. So basically a serious breeding program would require several, perhaps even many, captive specimens to start out with and have to be done maintaining a reasonably deep gene pool. Commercial breeders and lab rat breeders with all of their shortcomings, do this for the brown rat now.

But yes, I'd love to try my hand at this species too.


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## tameyourself

nanashi7 said:


> This might help then:http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?27262-How-Big-Are-Full-Grown-Female-Rats-Pics-PLZ


I have had female rats before so I was trying to remember how big they were. I know Lucy has more growing to do though.


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> I am actually so not surprised Tim is doing so well. Accounts from the early years of the rat fancy put the roof rat in the lead for becoming *the* pet rat.
> 
> The brown rat came in white and then black and then other colors which made them more popular in the novelty driven hobby. Much of the work with pet rats was being done in England and Europe where the roof rats ability to withstand higher temps and drink very little water didn't matter and the commercial breeders for scientific experimental rats picked up on the easier to handle and identify albino brown rat. World war 1 put a crimp into almost every fancy or hobby and when the fancy bounced back the roof rat was largely forgotten. To make matters worse in England the brown rat did a great job of out-competing and exterminating most roof rats.
> 
> And lets be honest... brown rats do make great pets!
> 
> But if not for a twist of fate, roof rats might be the common pet rat and the brown rat might not be the domesticated one, it was once too close to call. So I really expected you to do well with Tim if you put in the time.
> 
> Only comment, I'm not so sure the bathroom is the best place to free range a roof rat... Roof rats are pretty arboreal like squirrels, they love to climb and jump and they have lots of energy to burn off. I've only ever seen a few vids of people with roof rats but those I've seen had the rats literally bounding about in large rooms. These critters can really move and really jump. Hopefully you can become more confident about working with Tim so you can get him into a larger space for free range. It might be important for his health to get lots of exercise.
> 
> As a shoulder ratter, I couldn't even imagine how cool it would be to work with a rat with such great eyesight and outdoor open space capability. Not that I'm recommending you try it with Tim! It really is cool just to see a roof rat back in a human home situation and doing so well. And as Tim is, for now, a real novelty it would be a real shame to lose all of the things we can re-learn from him to a silly mistake.
> 
> It's been 100 years since we added much knowledge on this species indoors, and I suspect we forgot more collectively than we recall... please keep us posted on how he is doing. For people that live in hot climates you may be looking at the rat of the future.


Rat Daddy you are so knowledgeable! How do you know so much about rat history? I will work on finding a bigger free range. When I have him in the bathroom he climbs up over me on to my towel rack. Lucy wants nothing to do with all that climbing! She would rather sit in my lap and be scratched. I'm glad I was able to find such a big cage for them as I thought it would be important for Tim to have a lot of climbing room, and he sure uses it!


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## tameyourself

Grawrisher said:


> I want one!!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


haha, if they do ever have babies I'll be happy to let you have some.


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## Grawrisher

tameyourself said:


> haha, if they do ever have babies I'll be happy to let you have some.


Woot! Hybrid babies! Lol, and no worries rat daddy, te only place I know of with a thriving wild rat population of any sort is my grandmas house, I'm not sure of if it's brown or black but karma's (my aunts cat) seeing to it that no human sees a live one (as sad as I am for the rats she really is an amazing hunter, she's a very small cat and she even got a rabbit the other day) not to mention I wouldn't have any idea how to catch one, I'm not even sure where in the forest karma finds them


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## Rat Daddy

The world is full of ecological niches, the black rat has evolved to fill the similar niche of the American Grey Squirrel in Asia. Although it's more nocturnal than a squirrel it will build it's nests in tall shrubs and trees when it can. It has big eyes so it can see branches to jump to and it's built for jumping and airborne rock and roll. It recycles water very efficiently because it doesn't necessarily want to come down to drink if it doesn't have to and it can tolerate higher temperatures because it lives in trees in a tropical area. The ability to survive on little water and in higher heat made it the better rat to survive long sailing voyages. That's why it spread around the world first. Brown rats pretty much had to wait for technology to provide for plushier cooler and faster (typically) steam ships to hitch a ride. 

Naturally the black rat is a rat, not a squirrel and if need be will dig burrows and operate on the ground if no other choice is available.

My wife lived in a house in central america that was roof rat infested after an earthquake flattened her home. The roof rats lived between the ceiling and laminated roof. The moved from roof to roof and through the trees in the tropical climate. Again like squirrels will invade attics. And yes it got it's name because it really lived under you roof.

In the rare cases where brown and black rats will occur in the same location, brown rats will typically live in the basement while black rats will live in the attic. When the two species compete on even ground and if it is cool enough for brown rats, brown rats will out compete and eventually exterminate black rats. Brown rats are larger, stronger and more aggressive, not to mention they have larger teeth and a much stronger bite. And even though brown rats are less agile and slower, they are smart and given an enclosed area... bet on the brown rat in a fight.

As to rat history there are a few older books that go into the early hobby still available, it's mostly trivia but worth reading. There's lots of sources on wild black rat information on line, but not much on them as pets. There's even a pretty good nova video on PBS called Rat Attack, where you can see black rats in action. And some things you just have to kluge together from multiple sources, like the kind of play space a black rat would need. I mean if you know it lives in roofs, trees and shrubs and it has large eyes for seeing distances and it's lifestyle involves jumping from branch to branch, it's not hard to figure this critter needs lots of climbing and play space, with little risk of being wrong, even if I haven't owned one personally. I'm also going to guess that this rat's diet might include more fruits and nuts than what a brown rat would get living underground. But that's a guess not a fact. And rats of all kinds tend to be very adaptable.

As it gets really hot here in summer, I did look into the benefits of the roof rat over the brown rat way back when, but like everybody else, haven't found a good source for domestic black rats. Brown rats are a real hassle in the summer, both indoors and outdoors. And I've spent more than a few bucks keeping the A/C on when we go out. As the rat fancy spreads into more urban tropical areas, I expect that there will be a renewed interest in them for the practical reason that they can survive without A/C in places where brown rats simply can't. 

I suspect that there are some other drawbacks with roof rats as pets, but few behavioral facts were recorded from the turn of the last century. Most literature was dealing with anatomical distinctions back then, not so much how rats behave in captivity and what hobbyists were doing to tame, train and maintain their pets. Animal (pet) behavior and nutrition are relatively modern sciences. With all of the things we now know about brown rats, there's a good chance Tim has a lot of useful information to teach us about black rats and mixed rat packs. With all we know about this species, I suspect that Tim can teach us volumes more.

Keep us posted on how well he learns commands and how he behaves once he has more room to be himself.

And thanks for sharing Tim with us.


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## Grawrisher

I doubt the wild rats here are black rats then, while some of our summer days can be very hot , we have bone chilling winters and nippy springs and falls


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## Rat Daddy

Grawrisher,

We're talking about rats... I've learned never to count them out, they adapt. A large heated warehouse or factory or office building, or even school and they have a beachhead in your neighborhood.


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## Grawrisher

I dunno, most people here break out the traps as soon as they see one little raisin but hey it's possible...when you said large heated Waterhouse the image that came into my mind was this second hand store that's basically in a big warehouse, it's name? Pac rat palace....just imagine the irony


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## Rat Daddy

I worked in a large commercial bakery and there were rat traps every 15 foot along every wall and there was a very large male rat that used to live there with complete impunity. I did security, and the night security shift would always look for him to see if the plant was empty. If he was out munching crackers there was no one in the plant. If he couldn't be found there was someone working somewhere in the factory. He had no fear of security, but would hide when anyone else was around. And when you are supposed to be the only living human in a dark factory, it's nice to know when it is and when it isn't true before you start wandering around in a vast factory complex.


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## Grawrisher

So the rat worked security too! Haha lovely, rats are awesome! I still think it would be funny to find a rat at PAC rat palace.....the closest or seen to a rat at work was a bat, a very confused bat, but a bat


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## Rat Daddy

Bats are pretty much extinct by me... and yet somehow mosquitoes are immune to the white nose fungus. It's so unfair. I miss bats. Rats are doing pretty well around these parts too, but that's no surprise.


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## tameyourself

Here is a bad cell phone pic of Tiny Tim and Little Lucy on my shoulder


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## Finnebon

Oh my gooossshhh he is so cute. I love the wild rat look! They look so different compared to our chubby domestic babies! He looks like he's healthy. I'm going to have to catch up on this thread. You must be doing a great job!


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## Finnebon

nanashi7 said:


> Are your girls full-grown? http://helid.digicollection.org/documents/h0213e/p263.gif http://www.uspesttexas.com/resources/droppings.jpg That is a drawingbut maybe helpful?
> 
> More gruesome: http://www.rpleepestcontrol.com/content/images/PestInfo/mice/roofnorwayrat.jpg


Hm, by these pictures, I wonder if I might have roof rats in my backyard instead of the typical brown rat. I'll have to look that up. During the summer, my boyfriend bought a hammock and we set it up on my grandmother's porch at night a few times when we were visiting. We layed out there and listened and watched as 2 young rats scurried under, around, and on top of the deck. Zooming back and forth rustling the leaves underneath the boards and playing and squeaking when they caught each other. They occasionally would climb up onto the edge of the deck to check us out. I was pretty amazed when I saw both of them zoom up the tree faster than a squirrel. They are such amazing athletes! We had a little lantern style light that we set in the center of the deck to see the babies running around more easily. When one was in the tree, I picked up the light and slowly sloooowwwlllly walked towards him/her. The light I think made it harder for him to see me and he couldn't tell that I was getting closer, so I was able to get very close, maybe only 4 feet away. He was sitting in a crook of the tree, just about at eye level to me and slightly swayed his head back and forth trying to judge how far away this light was from him. Once I stopped, I was able to just watch him and was happy to be so close to such an awesome little animal. I stood there for at least 30 seconds before he decided he better leave and he climbed down very quickly and ran back under the deck. He looked young, lean, wiry, with more of a mouse face, big eyes, big ears. Completely different from our domestic babies, but very similar to Tiny Tim. I wonder if he could have been a roof rat? They seemed very interested in us and would sneak pretty closely to stare at us before running back. It would have been nice to make friends with them! But I of course don't want to endanger them at all since my grandmother hates rats and would quickly set out poison if she knew about them... So far they luckily have just been living under the deck and in the backyard, not inside the house.


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## tameyourself

Finnebon said:


> Oh my gooossshhh he is so cute. I love the wild rat look! They look so different compared to our chubby domestic babies! He looks like he's healthy. I'm going to have to catch up on this thread. You must be doing a great job!


He seems very healthy. A few weeks ago he had the sneezes and I treated him with ammoxicillin and they went away. Hoping for a long time with him!


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## Grawrisher

I love get in tiny Tim updates! He is SOOOO CUTE


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## agirl65

Oh how cute and those ears are just adorable!!


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## tameyourself

Tiny Tim update!
Look what he did to his cage!!


He chewed a Tim sized hold in the bottom pan! I had to put the grate down on the bottom of the cage. Now I'm afraid of one of them getting their feet stuck in the bottom, even though it is "designed" for rats. I am now on the look out for a cage with a metal bottom pan.


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## Korra

I had that cage, its the Feisty Ferret. What I did was wrap fleece around the metal grate and that prevented them from chewing the pan but also protected their feet.


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## hiddenjumprope

Been loving reading about little Tim and seeing the updates. He is adorable. I especially loved the videos, so keep them up!


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## tameyourself

Korra said:


> I had that cage, its the Feisty Ferret. What I did was wrap fleece around the metal grate and that prevented them from chewing the pan but also protected their feet.


Thanks! That is what I think I will do. I have plenty of fleece.


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## tameyourself

hiddenjumprope said:


> Been loving reading about little Tim and seeing the updates. He is adorable. I especially loved the videos, so keep them up!


Thanks I will try! He has not been very good with photos lately! All I get is a blur! lol


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## Rat Daddy

My part wild brown rat would disappear for long periods of time. She also ran away for 5 months and didn't come home until winter. When we couldn't find her, we always suspected that she was outside somewhere. Wild rats are very good at chewing through stuff and tunneling. Mine destroyed anything plastic in the cage. They also do tend to get claustrophobic. Do keep in mind that outdoors Tim might range over many acres to find food and water so his idea of small space is a lot larger than the same concept as understood by a domestic rat. 

On the up side, my part wild rat didn't really do any damage in the house. Her thing was being very very stealthy and sneaking around leaving no footprints. The fact was that you never knew you had a rat if she wasn't in the cage or until you called her. Sometimes you might see a shadow move out of the corner of your eye or glimpse a whisker from on top of the fridge.... But she would stay in the shadows and observe me at night frozen in place until I looked away, I swear she watched my eyes, then she would silently sprint into the next shadow. I might add that unlike every other rat I've owned that made chewing noises from behind things and walked with a pitter patter she was silent.... it wasn't until I actually watched her walk across my keyboard without depressing a single key that really got a feel for what stealth means. She was really quite a remarkable rat...

In any event, I think Tiny Tim is telling you he wants more out of cage time. If he's like my wild brown rat, who didn't do any damage to the house and didn't bother anyone, it might be easy to accommodate. When my wild child went native she was spotted several blocks away from our house. She was a one owner rat and no one was likely to catch her or pick her up other than me or my daughter. 

But it sounds like Tim is doing great in your home otherwise. From the positive early accounts of black rats in the fancy, it seems a shame we lost them as they supposedly made charming pets and companions. So I'm not at all surprised Tim is fitting in.

As you have had him for a while now, have you noticed any differences between him and your brown rat? I suspect that most of the quirks of this species have been lost in English speaking rat history. Is there any advise you might give to anyone else with a black rat or anything personality wise or behavior wise you could share with us about how he is developing? Anything unusual about his favorite foods, sleeping habits, etc? After our rats are gone, we tend to remember some things better than others, but now that he's right there in front of you, this would be a great time to post your notes so we actually have a concurrent record on Tim and his species for the digital age.

Roof rats are better suited for warmer climates and as there are more and more urbanized areas developing around the equator they may be poised for a come back. It would be nice to start rebuilding the knowledge base.


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## ratsaremylife

How old is was your girl when you got her?


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## Rat Daddy

Best guess is 3 weeks. She had been brought into the pet shop as part of an accidental litter, and was supposedly hand raised by a little girl like mine. That's why we chose her... She seemed normal enough until during play fighting she lept from my desk and laid about a dozen mock bites on my face before I could swat her off and that was at about 5 weeks old. That's also about the age she started jumping down to the floor from table tops and climbing up extension chords. I doubt she was fully half wild, but she was seriously not like any domestic rat I've ever owned in certain ways. Don't get me wrong, she could be very sweet and loving but just when you thought she was behaving normally... she would put her back up to a file cabinet and walk straight up a wall or deflate herself incredibly flat and slide herself under a door like an envelope. And when she got mad she would launch herself into the air and turn into a ball of fangs fur and claws. She shredded my neighbor's hand when he tried to pick her up... And she only ate stuff the second day after it was introduced to her and she tasted the food on day one... Other than that she was pretty much just like any other pet rat. Pretty much I'd say keeping a wild type rat is a lot like keeping a pet wolf, they are very much like dogs except when they aren't.


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> My part wild brown rat would disappear for long periods of time. She also ran away for 5 months and didn't come home until winter. When we couldn't find her, we always suspected that she was outside somewhere. Wild rats are very good at chewing through stuff and tunneling. Mine destroyed anything plastic in the cage. They also do tend to get claustrophobic. Do keep in mind that outdoors Tim might range over many acres to find food and water so his idea of small space is a lot larger than the same concept as understood by a domestic rat.
> 
> On the up side, my part wild rat didn't really do any damage in the house. Her thing was being very very stealthy and sneaking around leaving no footprints. The fact was that you never knew you had a rat if she wasn't in the cage or until you called her. Sometimes you might see a shadow move out of the corner of your eye or glimpse a whisker from on top of the fridge.... But she would stay in the shadows and observe me at night frozen in place until I looked away, I swear she watched my eyes, then she would silently sprint into the next shadow. I might add that unlike every other rat I've owned that made chewing noises from behind things and walked with a pitter patter she was silent.... it wasn't until I actually watched her walk across my keyboard without depressing a single key that really got a feel for what stealth means. She was really quite a remarkable rat...
> 
> In any event, I think Tiny Tim is telling you he wants more out of cage time. If he's like my wild brown rat, who didn't do any damage to the house and didn't bother anyone, it might be easy to accommodate. When my wild child went native she was spotted several blocks away from our house. She was a one owner rat and no one was likely to catch her or pick her up other than me or my daughter.
> 
> But it sounds like Tim is doing great in your home otherwise. From the positive early accounts of black rats in the fancy, it seems a shame we lost them as they supposedly made charming pets and companions. So I'm not at all surprised Tim is fitting in.
> 
> As you have had him for a while now, have you noticed any differences between him and your brown rat? I suspect that most of the quirks of this species have been lost in English speaking rat history. Is there any advise you might give to anyone else with a black rat or anything personality wise or behavior wise you could share with us about how he is developing? Anything unusual about his favorite foods, sleeping habits, etc? After our rats are gone, we tend to remember some things better than others, but now that he's right there in front of you, this would be a great time to post your notes so we actually have a concurrent record on Tim and his species for the digital age.
> 
> Roof rats are better suited for warmer climates and as there are more and more urbanized areas developing around the equator they may be poised for a come back. It would be nice to start rebuilding the knowledge base.


I think he does need more out of cage time, these past few weeks I have been very busy and he has not gotten the attention that he needs. I will do my best to change that.

So there are so many differences between him and Lucy the domestic. First of all, Lucy loves to be petted and scratched. Tim wants none of it, it is kind of sad. He doesn't want to be petted much at all. He climbs onto my hand and arm and that is how we interact. He wont really let me pick him up either, when I transport him either to some place to play or to another cage while his is being cleaned it is on his terms. He has to crawl onto my hand and allow me to take him somewhere. He really is a wild animal. 
When I take him and Lucy out to play, Lucy spends most of the time on my shoulder cuddling rather than exploring. Tim is exploring everywhere. And boy can he JUMP! He has great eyesight and such a long tail that jumping is no trouble for him. He also likes to climb. 
He does seem to enjoy what I think is grooming me. He will crawl onto my arm and begin lightly biting/chewing on me, it doesn't hurt and he seems to enjoy it. 
I wish I could give him more free range of the house, but I have cats and I worry they will try to hurt him.


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## ratlover15

He is _so _adorable!!!!


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## bazmonkey

tameyourself said:


> So there are so many differences between him and Lucy the domestic. First of all, Lucy loves to be petted and scratched. Tim wants none of it, it is kind of sad. He doesn't want to be petted much at all. He climbs onto my hand and arm and that is how we interact. He wont really let me pick him up either, when I transport him either to some place to play or to another cage while his is being cleaned it is on his terms. He has to crawl onto my hand and allow me to take him somewhere. He really is a wild animal.


He sounds just like a mouse! Benson was the same way... well, you could scoop him up, but there was no petting and he wanted nothing of it. An entertaining world was all I could provide as it wanted nothing to do with me. I don't think animals like this see our hands, bodies, and faces as a separate creature to interact with: we're more like moving parts of the landscape. Not at all like brown rats. It's obvious when they get skritches and proceed to return the favor on my beard that they truly see me as another animal.


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## tameyourself

bazmonkey said:


> He sounds just like a mouse! Benson was the same way... well, you could scoop him up, but there was no petting and he wanted nothing of it. An entertaining world was all I could provide as it wanted nothing to do with me. I don't think animals like this see our hands, bodies, and faces as a separate creature to interact with: we're more like moving parts of the landscape. Not at all like brown rats. It's obvious when they get skritches and proceed to return the favor on my beard that they truly see me as another animal.


Was Benson a wild mouse or a domestic mouse?


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, I've had mice that came when called, PEW's. But it's true some just pretty much explore on you and don't play with you. Just like rats there appears to be a gradient of intelligence with mice from pretty basic to almost ratlike.

My part wild could be very very affectionate. Sometimes she loved to snuggle... but it was always on her terms, everything was on her terms. The way she ate, the way she had to be introduced to people, the way she was called, the way she explored the house, everything was guided by a magical set of rules. Which I won't actually say was at all bad once I understood them. She was very predictable. If I wanted to introduce her to someone, we did talk, sniff, acknowledge on her part and pet and no one got bit. But grab and the results were a blood bath, the exception being my daughter who could do pretty much anything she wanted with that rat.

Max our current shoulder rat has a strange rule about snuggling. She will only snuggle when she's tired out after a long period of play and exploration. Basically awake and aware time involves her feet moving and sleepy time involves cuddling and snuggling. She drives herself to exhaustion and then collapses. Once she is down there's nothing that will wake her no matter where she is when she goes down. Most comically, Max once rolled into a ball and closed her eyes up a tree with a cat bird screeching at her and she had no intention of coming down until she finished her nap despite being poked with a stick and having pine cones tossed at her. If I skritch her or snuggle her when she's in sleep mode she's pretty ok with it otherwise she's late for an appointment elsewhere. I suspect with the kind of energy Tim has it wouldn't be easy to tire him out. 

And yes, he is grooming you, carefully removing dead skin. I've had a few rats do that. 

In certain ways wild rats are a real trip. I suspect it's their "rules" that keep them alive in nature. There's a certain kind of greeting they expect from a friend and a certain behavior they expect from an predator. They seem driven to patrol their environment and explore and everything seems subject to negotiation on their terms. 

With an arboreal species I assumed that free range would become an issue. In nature jumping between trees has to burn off lots of energy that can't easily be replicated indoors. Maybe you can hang some ropes or fishnet for him to climb or run on? Just a thought. My part wild was easy to free range, I don't have cats and she loved to be stealthy, so the rat phobic wife never even knew there was a rat prowling the shadows. And there was no way that rat would ever come out to meet a stranger, she had two human friends and everyone else was regarded as hostile unless properly introduced. But cats are unpredictable and accidents can happen quickly so I understand your issues. I'd suggest outdoor play time with a brown rat, but with a black rat that can climb and run like a squirrel, it might be way too risky even at a site completely safe for a brown rat. Still it's great to get your updates. Thank you.


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## Raturday

So sorry the pan with the cage didn't work out for you. I know my rats chewed on it a tiny bit around the corners but they aren't wild ratties, hehe. I think the grate would be fine to use for the bottom as long as you cover it with towels or fleece. Honestly the bars are not a big deal as long as they are clean. Bumblefoot is mostly caused by uncoated galvanized steel (it has a rough surface) and unclean conditions, so your rats would be fine on it. All of the other surfaces are solid so it's not a big deal - they wouldn't be walking on it all the time.


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## TheRatPack8

Rat Daddy said:


> I forgot to address the getting neutered issue. This is something I would definitely recommend against!
> 
> Finding a vet that has ever neutered or even operated on a roof rat is going to be a challenge. But for money, I'll bet you will find someone that will try. I've never heard about hormonal aggression issues in roof rats, but there is a lot we don't know about them anymore in common circulation.
> 
> I'd honestly just work with Tiny Tim to get him and keep him socialized. I don't think it's possible for Lucy to conceive with him or if he would even be interested in her that way. And if you do think you have an issue I'd spay Lucy. It's a safer surgery as a vet is more likely to know what he's doing.
> 
> And by the way, if after you confirm that Tim is a roof rat and he does get Lucy pregnant and the union actually does produce viable offspring, please put me on top of the long list and sign me up for a couple pair. If they aren't mules, they will be a completely new species "Fancy Dumbo roof rats"... I don't believe there's any chance it could ever happen, but I'd hate to miss the opportunity to be one of the first persons in the world to ever have them. Imagine a dumbo shoulder rat I could take out on hot days with fancy markings and great eyesight... I'm already drooling. Rather I'm day dreaming...
> 
> I'm not advocating you try to breed Tim and Lucy, just to be clear.


Lol rat daddy. XD 


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## tameyourself

Raturday said:


> So sorry the pan with the cage didn't work out for you. I know my rats chewed on it a tiny bit around the corners but they aren't wild ratties, hehe. I think the grate would be fine to use for the bottom as long as you cover it with towels or fleece. Honestly the bars are not a big deal as long as they are clean. Bumblefoot is mostly caused by uncoated galvanized steel (it has a rough surface) and unclean conditions, so your rats would be fine on it. All of the other surfaces are solid so it's not a big deal - they wouldn't be walking on it all the time.


Yeah Tim certainly likes to chew! Right now I am using the metal grate at the bottom with a layer of fleece on top of it. I was thinking about investing in a critter nation cage though. I found a company that makes metal pans to fit inside of them too! http://www.chinchilla.ca/detail.php?ProductID=MW6000


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## tameyourself

So I have an update... Tim and Lucy have a new friend!! I picked up a little blue girl to join the group. So far they are getting a long. I have the new girl in a separate cage but she has met Tim and Lucy and they seem to like each other. Also... I AM GETTING A CRITTER NATION CAGE! I found somebody selling one on craigslist for a good price and I couldn't resist! I should get it this weekend.


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## Gannyaan

tameyourself said:


> So I have an update... Tim and Lucy have a new friend!! I picked up a little blue girl to join the group. So far they are getting a long. I have the new girl in a separate cage but she has met Tim and Lucy and they seem to like each other. Also... I AM GETTING A CRITTER NATION CAGE! I found somebody selling one on craigslist for a good price and I couldn't resist! I should get it this weekend.



Critter nations are awesome, congrats!!! I can't yet get one.... One day  .... also, Your new blue is adorable... 


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## hiddenjumprope

What a beautiful ratty!! She's gorgeous. 

I wish I had a critter nation, though I do have a ferret nation that I am putting together this weekend. (I know they are about the same but you don't need hardware cloth for small rats ) 

Just curious, how much are you getting it for? I paid $60 for mine, and with the parts and work it needs it's probably around $80 or so total.


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## Rat Daddy

Just be careful, some brown rats eat smaller rodents... in the UK brown rats all but completely exterminated black rats.... I think most of the time domestic browns and blacks get along fine, but I would keep a watchful eye on it just in case. My female part wild rat attacked and most likely ate mice on sight, I wouldn't have let her anywhere near Tim or any other smaller rodent... so don't think that because you new rat is female she will be more docile. If you see your new rat going into hunting mode act fast. With my part wild she attacked a mouse I was holding so ferociously I got bit blocking her attack so most likely if they get along under supervision for a while you will be fine.

And BTW congrats on your new rattie! I'm rooting for you that it will work out great. And with a roof rat more room to run and climb is always a stellar idea.


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## tameyourself

hiddenjumprope said:


> What a beautiful ratty!! She's gorgeous.
> 
> I wish I had a critter nation, though I do have a ferret nation that I am putting together this weekend. (I know they are about the same but you don't need hardware cloth for small rats )
> 
> Just curious, how much are you getting it for? I paid $60 for mine, and with the parts and work it needs it's probably around $80 or so total.


I'm getting the critter nation for $130. Much cheaper than new. Although not not as good as $60!


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> Just be careful, some brown rats eat smaller rodents... in the UK brown rats all but completely exterminated black rats.... I think most of the time domestic browns and blacks get along fine, but I would keep a watchful eye on it just in case. My female part wild rat attacked and most likely ate mice on sight, I wouldn't have let her anywhere near Tim or any other smaller rodent... so don't think that because you new rat is female she will be more docile. If you see your new rat going into hunting mode act fast. With my part wild she attacked a mouse I was holding so ferociously I got bit blocking her attack so most likely if they get along under supervision for a while you will be fine.
> 
> 
> And BTW congrats on your new rattie! I'm rooting for you that it will work out great. And with a roof rat more room to run and climb is always a stellar idea.


I will be careful. The new rat is not quite as big as Tim but will be soon. I', hoping that everybody gets a long well but I will keep a close eye out. And I have a spare cage just in case.


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## tameyourself

Here is the new cage!


Unfortunately the new rat (Lola) does not get to live in the big cage with Tim and Lucy. The introductions did not go well... I tried introducing them on neutral ground first and it went ok. So I put them all into the big cage and Tim freaked out. I think he was thinking "intruder alert intruder alert." When he saw Lola he started chettering really loud like a squirrel and then went into attack mode. So I separated them. No injuries but I don't want to chance it any further. No worries, I have 2 spare cages and will be getting Lola a friend.


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## Hey-Fay

Could you post pictures of Tim and Lucy?


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## ratsaremylife

I just saw that cage on the Rat Fan Club and FB. I might join that.


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## tameyourself

Here are Tim and Lucy, I need to get some updated pics of them.


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## Hey-Fay

tameyourself said:


> Here are Tim and Lucy, I need to get some updated pics of them.


Oh mah goodness!!! They've grown!


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## ratsaremylife

I also saw that adorable pic. Tim looks like he got lighter.


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## tameyourself

Hey-Fay said:


> Oh mah goodness!!! They've grown!


I think they are even bigger now, I'll get some more photos today and show you!


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## tameyourself

ratsaremylife said:


> I just saw that cage on the Rat Fan Club and FB. I might join that.


It is a fun page


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## tameyourself

I just took some new pics:


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## Hey-Fay

Ooohhh goodness!! They're so gorgeous!


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## hiddenjumprope

Awwwwww!!! They are so pretty.


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## tameyourself

Thank you everybody! Coming soon... A new rat! Since Lola doesn't get along with Tim she is in a cage by herself. She will be getting a new friend.


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## ratsaremylife

Can't wait to meet her!


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## Rat Daddy

It's a shame that Tim and Lola didn't get along. You might still get away with carefully supervised out of cage group play sessions though... My part wild brown rat tolerated and even seemed to like other people as long as my daughter or I were there to supervise and manage the interactions. But if we weren't there, very much hands on, she could turn vicious fast. Domestic brown rats more or less learn to like people, where the wild types pretty much don't... they make exceptions for a few special people. I think that's what Tim has done with Lucy. He may love Lucy, but that doesn't mean he trusts brown rats in general. And with the fact that brown rats have big teeth and sometimes eat other rodents, he may not be too far wrong.


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> It's a shame that Tim and Lola didn't get along. You might still get away with carefully supervised out of cage group play sessions though... My part wild brown rat tolerated and even seemed to like other people as long as my daughter or I were there to supervise and manage the interactions. But if we weren't there, very much hands on, she could turn vicious fast. Domestic brown rats more or less learn to like people, where the wild types pretty much don't... they make exceptions for a few special people. I think that's what Tim has done with Lucy. He may love Lucy, but that doesn't mean he trusts brown rats in general. And with the fact that brown rats have big teeth and sometimes eat other rodents, he may not be too far wrong.


It is a shame that they can't all live together, but I should have known better. I had dreams of filling up my critter nation but it will only have Tim and Lucy. I think Tim needs this huge cage though - and he LOVES it! He utilizes the entire thing and he runs through the entire cage with such speed and grace and that makes me so happy for him. I wish Lola could live with him in the big cage but she should be fine in her smaller cage. I might even put her in Tim and Lucy's old cage, if I can find room for it.


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## Finnebon

How is little Tim doing?


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## tameyourself

"Little" Tim is doing great! He is huge and loves living in his DCN. He smell like pee though and he wont tolerate me giving him a bath! lol
He still loves Lucy and they are both doing great together. No babies which is a relief. I'll try and get some new pics for everybody soon.


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## Rat Daddy

Why am I not surprised arboreal rats don't like water? I've never seen a squirrel swim either come to think of it. LOL We took Max swimming last year and now she just dives right into the drainage ditch at the park and splashes across, muddy rat and muddy shoes later... I wish she were a little more afraid of water too. On the other hand, I've never had a rat that liked being bathed... Maybe if you offer Tim a big tub of shallow water with some peas floating in it, he might wade in on his own if he likes peas.

In any case it's something to add to the knowledge base.


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## Hey-Fay

My girls hate baths (i had to bathe them once before i introduced them to water) but I put a big plastic paint holder, the kind you set pain rollers in when painting a room, and filled it full of spring water. Now everyone loves splashing and playing in it. Ruby dives in it and has a blast sloshing water all over my carpet lol


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## Pan&Lou

Oh my goodness, this is all so interesting! Tim, Lucy and Lola are all very lovely. 
More recent videos of Tim perhaps? 


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## tameyourself

Rat Daddy said:


> Why am I not surprised arboreal rats don't like water? I've never seen a squirrel swim either come to think of it. LOL We took Max swimming last year and now she just dives right into the drainage ditch at the park and splashes across, muddy rat and muddy shoes later... I wish she were a little more afraid of water too. On the other hand, I've never had a rat that liked being bathed... Maybe if you offer Tim a big tub of shallow water with some peas floating in it, he might wade in on his own if he likes peas.
> 
> In any case it's something to add to the knowledge base.


Well honestly I haven't tried to bathe him... He doesn't tolerate me handling him. He will crawl onto my hand and up to my shoulder but I always let him come to me I never go a grab him. He is nothing like my other rats in that way. He doesn't even really like to be petted like my other rats do. He will let me pet him but he doesn't really want it. I am going to try putting some water in his cage and see if he will go into it. What do you suggest I use?


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## tameyourself

Here are some new pics of Tim. He wasn't feeling all that photogenic today though!




And here are the neighbor's Lola and Chloe - Tim does not care for his neighbors but Lucy likes them!


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## Rat Daddy

I'd go with a shallow dish of water where Tim can see something on the bottom and walk in slowly to get his paws wet first... Fuzzy Rat started the whole swimming thing with our rats, she jumped in at the beach, now my daughter just walks into the water with our rats and pushes them off to swim to me... Brown rats really are great swimmers and don't mind getting wet, but do better if they work up the courage to jump in on their own. If you have a big enough tub, you might even invite Tim along for a soak, expect to get scratched though... My daughter washes her rats by tossing them into the shower with me... it leads to scratches that are sometimes hard to explain.


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## Gannyaan

He is just adorable! It's amazing how he can look so similar yet so different . I'd love to see him running around to see the difference! 


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## PhilosophyGuy

I'm sure you've read Rat Daddy's posts, but he claims to have raised a half wild to great effect. *shrug*

Also: oh dang, that little baby is crazy adorable.


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## Rat Daddy

Our part wild was a terrific rat, as long as you made certain allowances for her peculiarities. And a while back, there was a fellow who had a most charming all wild brown rat on this forum too. At one time all pet rats were from wild stock, both brown and black rats included.

With proper care, and raised from small pups, rats like Tim can make wonderful friends and companions. Their peculiarities can even be endearing as much as they are fascinating.


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## sherlockandwatson

Aw his ears are so big! He's adorable. Did you say he was a roof rat? I'll have to look that up.


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