# Unusually rusted doe found in pet store!



## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

A friend of mine was contacted by a pet store employee about a ''black and orange rat'' that had been dropped off at the pet store and would be going as snake food if she didn't sell asap. We went to see the rat the next day, and well there were two does, what looks like a mother and daughter combo - and momma had a litter of newborn bubs. Both girls had the most extravagant rusting I had ever seen - the only way I can describe it is similar to a dogs brindle coat. They were black rats with chocolate lines running throughout with a pattern. Mommas lines were brighter and an orangey chocolate - which is what is making me conclude it defiantly rusting - but at first I really wasn't sure what they were. Either way it was beautiful and both girls were incredibly sweet. I asked if momma was available, but they are keeping her to be a breeder :-\ They also wanted us to pay the full sales price of a rat in their store which was $14.99. We left empty handed. 
Well this girl certainly left a big first impression on my friend as she returned the next day to try and get her for a lower price... but ended up paying the $14.99 anyway to bring the daughter home. We both estimated her age to be around 7 months and heres a picture but its _very poor_ quality. I have suggested going outside to take the pic, so hopefully I'll have more clearer pictures in a few days. She has been named Rolo.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Oh yes, my point of making the thread was to ask... has anyone else came across rusting of this manner? I've usually only known it to be blotchy and more so on the back rather than evenly distributed and in an actual pattern of swirls and lines.. interesting!


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

On Mocha my rattie shes like that but anguti (sp?) color to her but blotches all evenly around her body.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

lilangel said:


> On Mocha my rattie shes like that but anguti (sp?) color to her but blotches all evenly around her body.


Agouti? ... Can you get any pictures of the rusting? Does it change or stay mostly the same as she has aged?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The pics don't do it justice but...

Mom, she had mites causing the loss of hair but the rusting patches and swirls stayed the same 









daughter...once her diet improved the rusting went away.









Saffi my bestest rusting rat.. called her the wannabe hoodie

















Saffi really was a black variberk.









You might want to warn your friend that the daughter may lose that rusting once her care improves.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for the pics!! Thats really similar to what these girls look like! I'm sure she won't mind if the rusting goes, but it is certainly pretty while it lasts.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm disappointed that you're using this girl for breeding.

http://silverbirchrattery.webs.com/does.htm


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

that's apparently one of ema's friends.

but still, breeding a pet store rat? really? :-\ i thought that was a no brainer for any breeder lol

also, she's breeding ona...? that's disappointing considering the high aggression that has been noted especially in the boys in her lines, and the fact that her breeding itself was an accdent.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Higgins also looks oddly like one of her rescue rats, http://kelownarattery.webs.com/theboys.htm, 
TR Higgins
D.O.B: February 2010
Dam: Black Hooded doe
Sire: Black Hooded Rex buck
http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,21850.0.html
#7 both parents are black hooded, the dad is a rex. date of birth is: Febuary 21st 2010


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I can assure you Rolo is not being used for breeding! That is a mistake on Danielle's behalf on her website likely just copying and pasting the bio's from her other girls. But it has turned out that she was already pregnant when bought from the store so she is currently in a foster home. After which she is going to be re-homed. 

Yes I chose to allow Ona to have a single litter, regardless of her birth being accidental I still know her history. The behavioral issues in the males were taken into account with the pairing. Ona at first wasn't going there to be a breeder but Danielle loved her personality so we discussed it. TR Bentley the sire is from (Higgins X Stella litter) and the temperaments are solid in that line. 

Also Higgins is not from that rescue litter, he is a teddy rex with totally different coat and no curl to his whiskers. Baby number 7 was a mis-marked capped... Higgins markings are perfect. I am no longer rescuing, and my rescues were all re-homed, including Luna. (Who you can see is a beautiful dalmatian rat, and went to the same friend Danielle has been there for months now and has NOT been bred nor with no plans to) If you look at silver birches planned litters theres only one more she has in mind, thats as far as her breeding plans have been decided. TR Whiskey went to her originally for a breeder, but due to the temperament problems in the males lines he had been retired, as has my boy Finnigan as they are both alpha types.)


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Breeding goals: Rolo would only be used as a breeding Doe if the right match comes along since her hitory is not known to far back. Rolo's babies would prove if its a gene for her markings or if it is true rusting.

Status: Potential Future Breeding Doe

how on earth would typing that be an accident? lol


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Hmm well thats not what it said when she first put her up on the site. Rolo will not be bred I know that for a fact, I made that point very to clear to her. I'm going to ask why that was written though and make sure it is changed. I did discuss with her the rusting, why its there and thats its not a separate gene or something to be bred for etc.. and I know for a fact she has not taken what I said out of context.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

urrr... you should also alert her that if she wants to come across as intellectual and professional that she should use some sort of spellcheck function and fix all the butchered grammar and spelling on her page lol.

_Charlie is a verry curriouse girl who loves to explore._

wut?


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I'll pass that message a long too. Anyways here is her response: ''aparently i had missy set to breeding aswell... sometimes i wonder about me lol. i think everyone is set to proper now and if they bug you about the agouti girl tell them in not charging for any babies from her untill i have established lines.''


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

ok so she's still going to breed her, just give the babies away instead? nice.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

No, the Agouti girl is a completely different rat who eyes I think just opened, so she hasn't been evaluated or anything yet... I don't know all the details yet. Rolo is the black rusted that was dropped off at a local pet store. 

(Kyla lives by me... go into the purple sea horse and you'll see Rolo's mom who is more obviously rusted so you won't miss her. They are keeping her because they think shes some rare rat as well so she will defiantly be there.... I'll post a pic of Rolo's babies when they arrive and they will be the same as her moms no doubt. Just incase anyone still thinks Danielle is breeding her!)


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

i see. she wrote "chocolate agouti" under rolo's description so i assumed that was who she was mentioning.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Also Higgins is not from that rescue litter, he is a teddy rex with totally different coat and no curl to his whiskers. Baby number 7 was a mis-marked capped... Higgins markings are perfect. I am no longer rescuing, and my rescues were all re-homed, including Luna. (Who you can see is a beautiful dalmatian rat, and went to the same friend Danielle has been there for months now and has NOT been bred nor with no plans to) If you look at silver birches planned litters theres only one more she has in mind, thats as far as her breeding plans have been decided. TR Whiskey went to her originally for a breeder, but due to the temperament problems in the males lines he had been retired, as has my boy Finnigan as they are both alpha types.)


I think it's very decieving of you to say that Higgins is not from that rescue litter, as I know he is. I have his sibling Chorizo. Their birthdates are the same, and it is impossible to tell from the baby picture whether or not it's a "perfect" hood. Number 2 from that thread is Scotch which I know is also Higgins' sibling. You've indicated it to me in email several times. 



> Yep Keilbasa's siblings quickly overtook cho's size wise. Definatly genetics. Cho's brothers and sisters have all been adopted out (Except for Higgins which were keeping, and Scotch whos still availbale) everyone comments on how people orientated they are and I have had no problems with handling them - infact I take them to schools because their temperment is so ideal.


If anyone is interested, I will forward that email or take a screenshot of it. 

As for Higgins being a "teddy rex" ... I have never heard of such a thing. Being that he is from pet store stock and littermate to my Chorizo, I imagine he is just a "poor" rex. From pictures the coat certaintly looks the same as mine. And from your website:



> REX Coat Notes: During his baby malt at 4/5 weeks of age, he was almost completely hairless, except for his head and feet. He turned out to have the best rex coat of his litter, very curly and dense but his whiskers are not very curly at all. I have noticed that the REX offspring in his first litter never experienced any balding during the baby malt (Just thinning) and they all seemed to have a consistently good REX coat - not too much variation in quality when compared to dads litter.


How would you know about the rest of the litter at 4/5 weeks of age and as "adults" unless it was the same as the rescue litter? I will note that in your "Flew the Nest" section you can match all the rats from that litter, except for number 7. He's nowhere to be found.

Ema, I have never come out against you, but please just represent yourself truthfully. Lying about a rat that is from a rescue litter only makes you look worse.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

So On « Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 02:30:23 am » you flat out say


> Gah.... okay Number 7 is mine


You've posted this picture of baby Higgins before. That picture of the baby there is no way to identify if he is a perfect hood or not, but he looks pretty **** close.
Higgins:








Baby 7:









And Kyla already hit my last point that no rat on your left the nest page can be matched up with baby #7


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

I just found this, some may think its okay to buy and breed rats from a feeder breeder so I'll let them make what they want of it. 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=179224886704&v=wall









edited: cause my link didn't work first time


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Baby number 7 I was originally keeping for myself and was on my rescue page alone with Luna, Hobbs, Sambuca and Quinn. He was not intentionally left off my flew the nest page I've missed quite a few others as well. Little Higgins was adopted out with Sam, and I can likely get pictures of the two together. He has beige front legs and his cap is too far past his shoulders. He was renamed Ben so I reused the name Higgins. 

There are four different types of rex, different quality coats and some have more curl and better whiskers etc. When Higgins was a baby he was naked except for his feet and head (none of Cho's litter were naked) 

Cho has VERY curly whiskers.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

You should maybe also get all the facts before you accuse me of that. They mouse express offer a delivery system from Vancouver to the mainland


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Baby number 7 I was originally keeping for myself and was on my rescue page alone with Luna, Hobbs, Sambuca and Quinn. He was not intentionally left off my flew the nest page I've missed quite a few others as well. Little Higgins was adopted out with Sam, and I can likely get pictures of the two together. He has beige front legs and his cap is too far past his shoulders. He was renamed Ben so I reused the name Higgins.
> 
> There are four different types of rex, different quality coats and some have more curl and better whiskers etc. When Higgins was a baby he was naked except for his feet and head (none of Cho's litter were naked)
> 
> Cho has VERY curly whiskers.


Cho was almost naked when I picked him up. He had a very thin coat. It thickened as he aged and is thinning right now, as happens on "poor" rexes. He is almost naked again.

That picture was taken several months ago and now his whiskers are almost straight. I can get another picture if you like, tomorrow. Cho and your Higgins look identical, except for the colour.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Why would a breeder of PETS get involved with a company like that AT ALL for any reason? I'm done for the night, I'll let people read it and make their own conclusion.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Higgins is not naked at all... far from it. He is not a poor rex, just no curl to his whiskers. Somethings I will work to improve but its not really a big issue as I'm breeding towards double rex. I'd love to see pics of Cho, but his coat is not very relevant to what I'm working with now. The pic of Higgins on my website hanging out of the FN is fairly recent... his coat is still full. And with all the white on him, baldness would be very obvious. 

I get involved with her because Amanda is a family friend, shes not a bad person and my comments about the good care is because she switched from pine and seed mix etc to newspaper and mazuri. I am active on reptile forums as well trying to spread *good* advice instead of just shunning them out and criticizing them from afar. She had no idea animal shavings sold in pet stores were harmful etc.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

um... from what i can tell she's more pointing out the fact that you got one of your breeding program rats from a feeder breeder. and then deleted the post admitting it. i take it by your signature and lack of information on your rattery page that she's not around anymore...?


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I didn't delete my post, I made my facebook private... thats for family and friends and I don't need any drama starting on there.

I didn't get Stella from 'the mouse express' Amanda bought her over from Vancouver for me as I don't drive myself. And I've never claimed anything more for my rats that I knew. Stella doesn't have an extensive pedigree and NARR registration if thats what your looking for, but she had enough for me to work with her. It doesn't claim to be anything more so on my website. Yes Stella passed away during her second litter, likely from shock from birthing complications. She was 11 months old, and Stella's mom was 17 months when she had Stella. These things can happen in any lines.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

i see... i didn't see any memorial or anything for her, so i was feeling like it was something that you didn't want to make public. i understand it can happen, but i'm noticing more and more rats being added to your program with less and less information on their history and where they were recieved from. :-[ you have to try and understand what it looks like to us on the outside. i understand it's not information you should be divulging in on a forum that doesn't support breeding, but your website is mainly what i'm referring to.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

and... if your profile is private, why does the other post still show up? i know i'm on your friends and all, but it still shows up even when i was logged out. just can't click on your name to view your profile.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I added a rainbow bridge section to my website the day of her burial. I only kept it off this forum as there were a few objections to me posting my last planned litter between Lucy and Riddick, so I just decided to keep all of my rattery future goings on to myself so to speak. Hense why Ona's litter or Cookies up and coming litter were not mentioned here either.

No I totally understand where your coming from, my website still needs a lot of work and I need to add the pedigrees I do have. Although I haven't been adding more and more rats? I have a total of 15 residents, 3 of them being from my last litter and the last new addition was Cookie who I bred myself and that was over 6 months ago now. (Higgins X Stella) 
I am renaming the rattery (so I can register as my prefix is already taken) at which time I am bringing in some new residents and of course will be getting my own domain and better tools to build my website. I've still got a while to go to really establish my lines, I hope importing some new blood lines will help. 

If I found a rat in a pet store or feeder bin exceptional enough to breed I'd state so and my reasons on my website, as they would have to be a good one. As I'm just starting out, I don't feel experienced enough to be able to do something like that.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Baby number 7 I was originally keeping for myself and was on my rescue page alone with Luna, Hobbs, Sambuca and Quinn. He was not intentionally left off my flew the nest page I've missed quite a few others as well. Little Higgins was adopted out with Sam, and I can likely get pictures of the two together. He has beige front legs and his cap is too far past his shoulders. He was renamed Ben so I reused the name Higgins.


Okay, so you're trying to tell me that you planning on keeping Number 7 a beige bareback rex, named him Higgins, but adopted him out. You then got ANOTHER beige bareback rex, same age, named him Higgins. So at what point was "Number 7" replaced with "new Higgins"? Here? This thread? How about here, here, or here?




ema-leigh said:


> Higgins is not naked at all... far from it. He is not a poor rex, just no curl to his whiskers. Somethings I will work to improve but its not really a big issue as I'm breeding towards double rex. I'd love to see pics of Cho, but his coat is not very relevant to what I'm working with now. The pic of Higgins on my website hanging out of the FN is fairly recent... his coat is still full. And with all the white on him, baldness would be very obvious.


There are obviously variations between littermates. Cho's coat was quite full a few months ago. I'm also curious as to why "unrelated" Higgins has the same body type and stubby head as Cho. I have never seen this in any of the other rats I've seen. I found one site talking about teddy rex, specifically different genetic mutations other than the Re gene. They have only been found in labs. The only other mention of teddy rex I found said that it is another term for velveteen, which is standardized in very few places and regarded by many breeders to be a "poor" rex. Not all Rex rats are created equal. In fact, most people who own and even breed Rex rats have never seen a truly good example. 
 Many breeders I have asked say that only "poor" rexes go bald during their baby moult, whereas proper rexes should only thin a bit.

My point is not to put you down. The rats I have received from you are the perfect picture of health and they were wonderfully socialised when I picked them up from you. I am just asking you to represent yourself truthfully.

Side note: I think the fact that you removed me from Facebook is incredibly childish. I did not post that link about Stella, nor did I mention anything about Stella in any of my posts.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

At the time I had the rescue litter I liked the name Higgins (wrote it down on my list from another member here Alex who has a hairless higgins) I was rescuing as well and planning to just have fewer litters each year as I wanted to keep a few of the rescues. At the time I got number 7's litter I also had a litter on the ground but I took them so they wouldn't end up as snake food. I had Lucys litter of 12 and his litter of 16. A lot of the names I gave them didn't stick as I usually generate names for recording sake as soon as they get here.... before I get to know them. Since I want to breed black and beige double rexes (Light + dark skin with darker colored eyes) its no coincidence I have several black and several beige. I have also had two Lucy's, three Luna's, two Charlies and several other reused names. 

I'm not claiming Higgins is a perfect rex, in fact it clearly states on my website that he doesn't have much curl to his whiskers and his daughter's coat wasn't was good as his (Cookie, whose coat just thinned as a baby) Something that will take time to improve upon. It also doesn't claim anything more than he is. I only have a 4 generation pedigree on him, and ask any one who adopted from his last litter or breeders that took his offspring - they are all aware of this fact. Usually I need at least 5 generations but I made an exception because of his other qualities. 
Higgins was the most hairless from his litter as a baby and turned out to have the best coat - regardless of whether his breeder was wrong in calling him a teddy rex or not - the information he gave me has been correct so far as to how the gene works. 

As for saying you've never seen a rat with similar conformation. A lot of rats the same color/coat type will look similar. For example... random images found on first page of google search (all unrelated rats):

































As for teddy rex being only found in labs, several breeders seem to think otherwise and call their strains teddy rex. On my website I just call it rex which ever strain it is.


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## skwidrama3000 (Oct 1, 2010)

Looks like a Tortie rat


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> At the time I had the rescue litter I liked the name Higgins (wrote it down on my list from another member here Alex who has a hairless higgins) I was rescuing as well and planning to just have fewer litters each year as I wanted to keep a few of the rescues. At the time I got number 7's litter I also had a litter on the ground but I took them so they wouldn't end up as snake food. I had Lucys litter of 12 and his litter of 16. A lot of the names I gave them didn't stick as I usually generate names for recording sake as soon as they get here.... before I get to know them. Since I want to breed black and beige double rexes (Light + dark skin with darker colored eyes) its no coincidence I have several black and several beige. I have also had two Lucy's, three Luna's, two Charlies and several other reused names.


Lucy's litter of 12 was gone by the time you got that litter. You did have the litter from Cecilia though, maybe that's what you're thinking of. Personally it doesn't make much sense to me to generate names for recording sake and then reuse them - that seems very confusing. I've only heard of people generating unique names for each rat that comes into their care. I've never heard of your "other" Lucys, Lunas, or Charlies... but I don't follow you that closely. Curious as to why they've never shown up on here, though.

But Higgins IS from that rescue litter - like I said, you've said so to me in email. Here is one from May 30, which I will note is after you bred Higgins to Stella.










In case it's hard to read, here's the text:



> Yep Keilbasa's siblings quickly overtook cho's size wise. Definatly genetics. Cho's brothers and sisters have all been adopted out (Except for Higgins which were keeping, and Scotch whos still availbale) everyone comments on how people orientated they are and I have had no problems with handling them - infact I take them to schools because their temperment is so ideal. Keilbasa's other brothers with red eyes can also be a bit timid, I can hold them no problem, no nips or anything... but they can be jumpy for bangs and new situations.... Im guessing the red eyes as well. That and they should settle a bit with age.
> 
> Again thanks for the update, and I'd love to see some pics  If you need anything just give me a shout! All of my ratties are doing wonderful, Stella is expecting babies around June 5th... very excited!


The evidence is there. I will let people make their own decisions.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

SBR Rolo is now listed under Foundation rats in health tracking.

http://silverbirchrattery.webs.com/healthtracking.htm










Keep in mind when you agree to mentor someone and give them your stock, you're responsible for them. Their ethics and what they produce is a reflection on you.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

"tempernent" -_-;


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

ema-leigh said:


> You should maybe also get all the facts before you accuse me of that. They mouse express offer a delivery system from Vancouver to the mainland


Thats great but you already posted a different story about how you got Stella on a different forum. 

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=17700
While showing off my rats to a friend she got really excited and insisted I come and check out her rats as she had some babies she wanted to show off. I agreed, although I was skeptical as I wanted really good quality rats. What I saw amazed me. She had about 20 rats who had a bedroom to themselves, decorated with ratty wallpaper + accesories. She also had a humidifier in two huge enclosures that looked like so much fun. She opened one cage and they all came running to her, some sitting on her shoulder. We gossiped for hours and hours about all things ratty. And I learned that she bred her own rats once every few years and kept every single baby for herself! The rats were gorgeous, himalayans, siamese, dilutes, blues even some dumbos. They were evidentally well taken care of and appeared in good health. So I did a little more digging, she did keep a family tree but it was a name only basis and any medical notes. One paticular dumbo girl caught my eye. She was an adorable albino with what I thought was a newspaper smudge on her nose (she turned out to be a dilute himalyan! and that newspaper smudge is now three times the size ) Anyways she was able to let me see and hold Stella's sisters (it was a 7 girl litter), mom, dad, grandparents and a great great grandmother who has over 4 years old! I was smitten and just had to have one of her rats. I learned alot from her with regards to caring for rats. They need large enclosures, large groups and stuff to do as well as the regular pet stuff such as being outside, playtime, bathtime and all that good stuff. 
Stella came home with me when she was ready, was quarentined and then joined Lucy. They are best friends now, and Stella is the alpha even though she is a bit smaller and doesnt see as good... I think Lucy could easily dominate her but shes so kind a real mother figure.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Only just seen the responses to this.

I am not mentoring Danielle, she is a friend and I'm offering her advice. Rolo is not being bred, I won't repeat that again. If you notice the health tracking page has only just been put up. Since Rolo won't be in any of her rats pedigrees she is not a foundation rat and that is obviously a mistake. You have the link to the website, you can even follow yourself and see that Rolo will be rehomed and her litter born date will link up to the date before she was bought home. 

How is that different to what I said about Stella? I did get to see her family and meet the breeder, when she was ready she was bought over here as I don't personally drive myself and its 5 hours from here to Van. ???



> Stella came home with me when she was ready


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ema, your friend scares me. One she sooo needs to use spell-check! Her site makes me cringe. This is for public consumption and does not reflect well on her with all the spelling errors.

Two, No pedigrees...sigh, when will Canadians get it through their heads that Peds on the website is the right thing to do? 

Too many unknown sires and dams on potential breeding stock... Ash? WTF? Why would you even consider him??? And just a colour doesn't mean a known background...

*shudder*

Unamed of SBR

Hooded Agouti, Doe - Dumbo carrier

DOB: October 24th 2010

Sire: Black berkshire dumbo, Buck

Dam: Popcorn - Hooded Agouti, Doe

Unnamed is still to young to live here and still developing her personality no evaluation will be made untill she comes to live with us.

Breeding goals: None as of yet

Status: Potential future Breeding doe

She's ripping people off on her Harlan sales...$6 per lb? 

Whiskey (a TR rat) is up for adoption??
and Scotch...pet-only? I understand if Scotch was a rescue but was obviously a resident, why is he being rehomed. Plus beige can NEVER have black eyes, so her lack of knowledge of genetics is not reassuring.

Putting up rats as breeders then as pet-only because oops *giggle* that was a mistake, makes me wonder what other mistakes she makes...in her pairings, her breeding plans, etc. 

Sorry but not a breeder I would want to be affiliated with in any way.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> I am not mentoring Danielle, she is a friend and I'm offering her advice. Rolo is not being bred, I won't repeat that again. If you notice the health tracking page has only just been put up. Since Rolo won't be in any of her rats pedigrees she is not a foundation rat and that is obviously a mistake. You have the link to the website, you can even follow yourself and see that Rolo will be rehomed and her litter born date will link up to the date before she was bought home.


You say Rolo is not being bred, but she was listed as a breeding doe and is now showing up in the Health Tracking page. I can hardly see it being a mistake, as there are very few rats showing up there and at least 3/4 of them have been or are planning to be purposely bred from. If she was just listing all of her rats, why aren't the rest up there? The breeding may not have been intentional, but putting Rolo under Foundation Rats tells me that she is planning on using her to breed again or planning on using her offspring. I honestly cannot see how she could mistakenly put her in there.

The bottom line is that her breeding rats come from _your_ breeding stock. Regardless of if you are mentoring her, she is using your stock. What you allow other people to do with your bred rats IS a reflection of YOU and your breeding practices. If you are saying that what people do with your rats once they leave your home does not concern you, then I am worried about that.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I agree that there are mistakes on her web page... but when did I ever say what she does with my rats doesn't concern me? When you obviously have no idea how much contact I have with her and what we have discussed.

She has not made any mistakes with her breeding, the only planned litter she has had is Ona X Bentley. Of which yes she discussed with me but I'm not there with her 24/7 to stand over her shoulder and be her spell checker. Have you ever stopped to ask maybe if shes dyslexic or something? I mean I don't think she is, but either way I will bring up the issue with her again. When I was meeting up with her it was always in person, obviously can't vet someones spelling there.

I'm not using the mistakes thing as an excuse... but also note on the health tracking page it says SBR (everyones name) instead of linking up with their proper prefixes... I'd take that to mean she just copied and pasted everything in that section. And again something I'll mention to her. 

As for peds, it was me that told her to just put them on NARR when shes registered and then just include registration numbers on the site, as they are more for breeders than adopters. Again doesn't mean she doesn't have them.


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## eluin (Jan 25, 2010)

Maybe I am missing something, but isn't rusting an undesirable trait in black rats? I was just looking at the AFRMA website on the list of colors and rusted rats don't seem to be listed anywhere. I know that it doesn't matter with pet quality animals (I've got three in my house that are black rusted and I love them to death) but I thought the idea behind breeding was getting rats as close to the show standard as possible, as well as to breed for longer lived, healthier, sweeter rats. Or am I confused?


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Eluin said:


> Maybe I am missing something, but isn't rusting an undesirable trait in black rats? I was just looking at the AFRMA website on the list of colors and rusted rats don't seem to be listed anywhere. I know that it doesn't matter with pet quality animals (I've got three in my house that are black rusted and I love them to death) but I thought the idea behind breeding was getting rats as close to the show standard as possible, as well as to breed for longer lived, healthier, sweeter rats. Or am I confused?


You're right, it is a very undesirable trait. She's saying the rats not really being bred, it was a mistake to list her as a breeding doe on the website, but turned out pregnant. Regardless of that, I don't understand why she bought a pet rat from the petstore to just rehome it... :-\


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

You're right, it is a very undesirable trait. She's saying the rats not really being bred, it was a mistake to list her as a breeding doe on the website, but turned out pregnant. Regardless of that, I don't understand why she bought a pet rat from the petstore to just rehome it... :-\
[/quote]

Maybe to find Rolo a good home...?
I mean, don't even pet store rats at least deserve that?
They have feelings too right?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

No, Rolo was taken home because she was "different","unique" or "prettier" than the others. She sadly became a statistic as soon as she was bought.


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

ema-leigh said:


> lilangel said:
> 
> 
> > On Mocha my rattie shes like that but anguti (sp?) color to her but blotches all evenly around her body.
> ...


Sorry i did not see this but hope those picture's help? if not i can get better ones.


























Edit: i may be wrong on color of her though as i am not the best at it ???


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

EddricksMommy101 said:


> You're right, it is a very undesirable trait. She's saying the rats not really being bred, it was a mistake to list her as a breeding doe on the website, but turned out pregnant. Regardless of that, I don't understand why she bought a pet rat from the petstore to just rehome it... :-\


Maybe to find Rolo a good home...?
I mean, don't even pet store rats at least deserve that?
They have feelings too right?
[/quote]
Then why'd she buy that one and just that one?? You said that you guys wanted that unusual one, not that you wanted to "save" a rat. That's aside from it being pointless to buy a rat from a petstore to save it, all it does is increase the demand (they breed more because they sell more). It also is a huge risk if you're breeding to get a petstore rat anyway-even if you QT breeders try to limit new rats coming in, because, QT is not foolproof and they have a huge responsibility to all of the rats they already have and can't be loosing their lines by having a virus wipe them out. Even when getting from other breeders for outcrosses they try to get them all at once instead of a constant influx of rats to minimize this risk. I hope this wasn't the case, but it also seems like she realized that it wasn't the desirable thing she thought it was to breed and is now dumping it.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

lilangele, I think your girly is a mink, and she's rusting...agouti's always have black eyes and your little lovie's eyes are definitely ruby


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

EddricksMommy101 said:


> Hey, Everybody.
> She never said she was going to breed Rolo. How about that's the end of the story? (I hate conflict, and I'm not trying to make more drama so please don't attack me :S)


she _did_ have it written on the site that she was going to breed rolo, and passed it off as an accident when she was called out on it. the site's since been updated.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Not to nit pick, but she is listing food that doesn't even exist. 

Harlan is considered the best brand. However it is only available to be ordered online and in huge quantity ( go for the 2012 bag, which is just 12% protein).


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

lilspaz68 said:


> lilangele, I think your girly is a mink, and she's rusting...agouti's always have black eyes and your little lovie's eyes are definitely ruby


Aw ok good to know  yeah i am pretty bad at colors on ratties.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

If you read the whole thread, 1) I didn't buy Rolo. 2) She was bought because she was very sweet and they said ''the brown and orange rat'' would be going as snake food. I thought she would be agouti.. so no I didn't go there expecting something 'rare!' We walked away empty handed, my friend returned the next day. (At which point she knew it was just rusting - notice it was posted in the very first thread I didn't come on here thinking it was something weird) 3) We took just this girl because the store kept the mom for breeding. (Mentioned before, Kyla knows the purple sea horse she can go in there and find out the details herself)


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> If you read the whole thread, 1) I didn't buy Rolo. 2) She was bought because she was very sweet and they said ''the brown and orange rat'' would be going as snake food. I thought she would be agouti.. so no I didn't go there expecting something 'rare!' We walked away empty handed, my friend returned the next day. (At which point she knew it was just rusting - notice it was posted in the very first thread I didn't come on here thinking it was something weird) 3) We took just this girl because the store kept the mom for breeding. (Mentioned before, Kyla knows the purple sea horse she can go in there and find out the details herself)


No one here ever claimed that you did buy Rolo. You certainly seemed to think her markings were something "unusual" or "different" ... you said so yourself. In bold is my emphasis:



ema-leigh said:


> A friend of mine was contacted by a pet store employee about a ''black and orange rat'' that had been dropped off at the pet store and would be going as snake food if she didn't sell asap. We went to see the rat the next day, and well there were two does, what looks like a mother and daughter combo - and momma had a litter of newborn bubs. *Both girls had the most extravagant rusting I had ever seen - the only way I can describe it is similar to a dogs brindle coat.* They were black rats with chocolate lines running throughout with a pattern. Mommas lines were brighter and an orangey chocolate - which is what is making me conclude it defiantly rusting - but at first I really wasn't sure what they were. Either way it was beautiful and both girls were incredibly sweet. I asked if momma was available, but they are keeping her to be a breeder :-\ They also wanted us to pay the full sales price of a rat in their store which was $14.99. We left empty handed.
> Well this girl certainly left a big first impression on my friend as she returned the next day to try and get her for a lower price... but ended up paying the $14.99 anyway to bring the daughter home. We both estimated her age to be around 7 months and heres a picture but its _very poor_ quality. I have suggested going outside to take the pic, so hopefully I'll have more clearer pictures in a few days. She has been named Rolo.





ema-leigh said:


> Oh yes, my point of making the thread was to ask... has anyone else came across rusting of this manner? *I've usually only known it to be blotchy and more so on the back rather than evenly distributed and in an actual pattern of swirls and lines.. interesting!*


And Danielle _didn't_ know it was rusting, as evidenced by what was first up on her site:



Jaguar said:


> Breeding goals: Rolo would only be used as a breeding Doe if the right match comes along since her hitory is not known to far back. Rolo's babies would prove if its a gene for her markings or if it is true rusting.
> 
> Status: Potential Future Breeding Doe
> 
> how on earth would typing that be an accident? lol





ema-leigh said:


> (Kyla lives by me... go into the purple sea horse and you'll see Rolo's mom who is more obviously rusted so you won't miss her. They are keeping her because they think shes some rare rat as well so she will defiantly be there.... I'll post a pic of Rolo's babies when they arrive and they will be the same as her moms no doubt. Just incase anyone still thinks Danielle is breeding her!)


Yes, I am familiar with The Purple Seahorse, and I also know that they have recently moved to a new location and now keep all their breeders in the back room, out of site. So unless you knew of these rats beforehand and specifically asked to see them, I doubt they would have been out for viewing. I also don't think that if they considered the markings "rare" and wanted to sell her babies that they would have even considered selling her. I also don't think they would have sold her knowing she was pregnant.



ema-leigh said:


> I am not mentoring Danielle, she is a friend and I'm offering her advice. Rolo is not being bred, I won't repeat that again. If you notice the health tracking page has only just been put up. Since Rolo won't be in any of her rats pedigrees she is not a foundation rat and that is obviously a mistake. You have the link to the website, you can even follow yourself and see that Rolo will be rehomed and her litter born date will link up to the date before she was bought home.


Just want to mention again that when you give someone your breeding stock, what they do with it is a reflection on you as a breeder.



lilspaz68 said:


> Two, No pedigrees...sigh, when will Canadians get it through their heads that Peds on the website is the right thing to do?
> 
> Too many unknown sires and dams on potential breeding stock... Ash? WTF? Why would you even consider him??? And just a colour doesn't mean a known background...
> 
> ...


Pedigrees are a big thing with Canadian breeders. And no, no one really cares if you're registered with NARR. That is not an indication of health or quality, it just says that you paid some money to be entered in a database. I would much rather a breeder list NAMES, BIRTHDATES, DEATH DATES, any health notes, for at least 4 generations back. Like lilspaz says, colours do not cut it. Besides, NARR pedigrees are useless to the general population because you can't see them unless you are a member of NARR. That information should be available to adopters as well, not just other breeders.

The Harlan thing is kind of upsetting, yes. It costs (rounding up) $60 for a 33 lb bag of Harlan to be shipped here. That works out to (again, rounding up) $2 per lb. That means she's making a 300% profit off of FTC's stock.



ema-leigh said:


> I'm not using the mistakes thing as an excuse... but also note on the health tracking page it says SBR (everyones name) instead of linking up with their proper prefixes... I'd take that to mean she just copied and pasted everything in that section. And again something I'll mention to her.


My point of posting in this thread is that a pet store rat is being used as breeding. If she is really not affiliated with you, then you have no reason to defend her. However, I find it hard to believe that mistaking Rolo for a breeding doe TWICE on _two separate occasions_ hard to believe. Like Jaguar pointed out, how can writing that "her offspring will tell if it is rusting or a gene for colour" be a mistake? Why is she still listed on the foundation rats health tracking, with her own unique blurb? I could agree that it was a copying error if there were other non-breeding rats there, but there's not. Let's take a look at the other rats on that page:

Kahula: Was bred to Stella.
Whiskey: Was planning on being bred from. That text says that he has "grown out of his aggression" and may still be used for breeding.
Ona: Had a litter with Bentley.
Scarlet: Is on the future pairings page to be bred to Higgins.
Rayne: From your last litter, sold to Danielle on a breeding agreement.

If it were truly a copying error, wouldn't all of her rats, or at least a few of the other "pet-only" rats show up there as well?


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Yes her rusting was unusual... doesn't make it something I want to add to my lines though.. its still rusting LOL. 

And Danielle DID know it was rusting, after I saw her in the pet store I said she a black rusted not an agouti as I originally anticipated. We left because I didn't agree with paying full price for a rat they claimed would go as a feeder if she didn't sell. Danielle returned the next day and I wasn't aware until after she had bought her home. 

The Purple Sea horse swapped location with the tanning salon.. so its like two doors down and exactly the same just slightly bigger. Their breeders are in the front, some males are in the back. Rolo's mom and her litter should still be there, so I really urge you to stop in and find out the right info before passing your own judgement of what you 'think' would and should happen. Of course they didn't know she was pregnant, I didn't expect it either, she didn't look it. She had been there just a few days before Danielle got her. 

Again you don't know all the details of the Harlan do you!! I did the group order, to my parents house. Danielle had to drive out and get it, then weight it out into small amounts. The price per pound is lower if they buy in larger amounts from her. Quite frankly though, if you don't like it or agree with it... don't buy it!!

If adoptees want info on pedigrees/past health tracking its available. I make my own personal choices not to include them on my website.. doesn't mean they don't exist. 

I am not defending her, shes done nothing that needs defending. When you see a litter from Rolo, planned parents and obviously bred by Danielle... then complain... then I can take action and legally remove the rats she has from me. And for your information I didn't sell her Rayne, she was given to her on a breeding agreement IF she passes all her evaluations (and from me, AND with a male of my choice)

Whiskey, Scotch and Kahula were originally sold to her as pet only, I first knew her as an adoptee. When she expressed she would like to breed, I concluded that the boys would need to be evaluated at a later date. Whiskey is not being bred from, even though it says on the site his behavior was not severe enough to be pulled from her program - he doesn't fit in with her own goals to be considered for a pairing. 

Either way, I feel like I'm repeating myseslf. Why don't you take a trip to the purple sea horse... find out some info by yourself then come here and share what you found. Please do. Any further comments I have no issues answering.. just please direct it as a PM or personal email.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Also wanted to add: I'm not a 'Canadian' breeder. I live in Canada at the moment yes (have been here just over three years, returning home next year), but I'm from England originally and thats where most of my experience with rat husbandry comes from - so the ''canadian breeder theory'' you have going has no relevance to me. I choose not to put the pedigrees on my site, but they will be available on NARR when the registration is complete and available to adoptees with an interest in seeing them. 

And my bold emphasizes from your quote


> *rusting of this manner*


 - clearly I was aware it was rusting. (pokes title of this thread as well. If I'd made that conclusion... I had obviously shared it with Danielle) 

(Edit ---> Sorry trying to address every point raised best I can.)



> Then why'd she buy that one and just that one?? You said that you guys wanted that unusual one, not that you wanted to "save" a rat. That's aside from it being pointless to buy a rat from a petstore to save it, all it does is increase the demand (they breed more because they sell more). It also is a huge risk if you're breeding to get a petstore rat anyway-even if you QT breeders try to limit new rats coming in, because, QT is not foolproof and they have a huge responsibility to all of the rats they already have and can't be loosing their lines by having a virus wipe them out. Even when getting from other breeders for outcrosses they try to get them all at once instead of a constant influx of rats to minimize this risk. I hope this wasn't the case, but it also seems like she realized that it wasn't the desirable thing she thought it was to breed and is now dumping it.


Danielle got just the one because her mother (only other cage mate) had a litter of newborns and the store was not selling her. The day I was at the store, I was under the impression they were giving her away for free from what Danielle had told me.. as they ''didn't have the room for them''... and I did ask if the mom was available too - even asked about after weaning. Her mothers colors were much brighter and more defined swirls (older = more rusted) - prob why they wanted to keep her and not the daughter. Obviously I don't agree with paying the store for them, but Danielle made the purchase full well knowing it was rusting and that she was probably not 100% healthy. At that time I didn't even raise the discussion of a possible pregnancy, because of the age of moms litter and the fact she wasn't showing - I just assumed she wasn't. And I'm sure if she just wanted to 'dump' her, she wouldn't be getting her medical attention and putting so much of her own time and resources into her just to turn around and adopt her out for likely $10. (standard rescue adoption fee).

As for QT... Rolo is in a foster home equipped to raise the babies until they can be re homed and will be adopted out with at least one of her daughters.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Yes her rusting was unusual... doesn't make it something I want to add to my lines though.. its still rusting LOL.
> 
> And Danielle DID know it was rusting, after I saw her in the pet store I said she a black rusted not an agouti as I originally anticipated. We left because I didn't agree with paying full price for a rat they claimed would go as a feeder if she didn't sell. Danielle returned the next day and I wasn't aware until after she had bought her home.
> 
> ...


First of all, I never doubted that YOU knew it was rusting. I never said otherwise. I still maintain that Danielle didn't know it was rusting, although I trust you told her. I would pull up the screenshot I took, but I'm not at home right now. Anyway, this has been done to death and I'm not really interested in the back and forth.

And at no point in that post was I criticizing your breeding program. I was talking about Danielle. The fact that you feel you must be defensive is very telling.

I was not asking WHY those rats I listed were being considered for breeding, I was merely pointing out that of the rats listed on the Health Tracking page, the ones other than Rolo were bred or considered for breeding at some point. Rayne being sold or given is really just semantics - the point is that she is with Danielle for breeding.



ema-leigh said:


> Also wanted to add: I'm not a 'Canadian' breeder. I live in Canada at the moment yes (have been here just over three years, returning home next year), but I'm from England originally and thats where most of my experience with rat husbandry comes from - so the ''canadian breeder theory'' you have going has no relevance to me. I choose not to put the pedigrees on my site, but they will be available on NARR when the registration is complete and available to adoptees with an interest in seeing them.


I hold ANY breeders WORLDWIDE to the same standards. Ethics should not vary just because you are in a different country. I think you will find breeders in the UK much harder to integrate with than here. And my question is, if you are really planning on moving back to England, why bother registering with NARR? If you plan to continue breeding over there, registering with NFRS would make a lot more sense.

I am not going to touch the QT thing.


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## eluin (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, I didn't mean to criticize either. I know just enough about breeding to identify a BYB from a good breeder and tell some colors and markings and I was interested in why someone would be breeding for a trait that was not considered desirable. I wanted to make sure I had my color facts straight, not insinuate that this person was doing something like that. I'm trying to learn what show standards are and as much about genetics as I can against the day that I do decide to breed. It probably will never happen, but I like to think that if I ever did want to, I'd be started along in making informed decisions. That rat is a cutie though!


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I am registering with the NARR for my breeding stock here placed with other breeders for their records as well (its only $25 for a year and once registered its permanent - including the prefix), I can't fly them all home with me.. but the majority will be. When I'm back home they will be registered there too with the appropriate data base. Even when I'm in England though I can still view the NARR website and follow/support my lines still here. 

If I told Danielle in the pet store that it was rusting (and explained it to the pet store employees as well, with Danielle standing right next to me), how could she not know what it was after that? 

I never said you were criticizing my breeding program, nor was I being defensive. Just trying to put the right information out there and address every point raised. (which you yourself could easily go verify at the said pet store and note the colors/markings of mommas babies, as I'd expect Rolo's would be similar) I hope my tone is not being misinterpreted though.

Also I never said different places have different ethics (except well maybe Australia) It was mentioned several times about how Canadian breeders have issues displaying peds on their website. Just wanted to point out I'm not Canadian so that theory can not even be applied to me. Obviously I have my own ethics and I comply to those.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> Obviously I have my own ethics and I comply to those.


That's a nice cop-out used by every single backyard or mill breeder in the world. So convenient to have your "own" of ethics, then no one can tell you wrong, no matter what you do. Hopefully people are smart enough to see through that mask.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Locked this post due to arguments and multiple complaints.


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