# Is it really a necessity ??



## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

I am not disagreeing with this topic. I''m not saying I'm right. I'm not trying to start an argument about it. It's just that I have been wondering something. Now on most sites I have been to they recommend having two rats so one wont be lonely. Now I did get two for that reason. But is it really necessary? Is it actually scientific facts or is it just another example of people forgetting that they are Rats and not humans. We all love to spoil them and love them as part of the family but we also need to remember that they are animals. And have the necessary ability to live on their own if need be. My sister had a snake and used to feed it small rats. Well one time the snake didn't eat this one and it escaped in my garage. So keep in mind this was a domestic rat now in the wild. We assumed it was dead then weeks later it emerges and it was still living in the garage! It got huge and it had been sneaking cat food. It was so funny watching him. We called him Frank. He would sneak out of the garage go to the porch steal cat food and run back. HE would do this for a while. None of my cats could get him. Not even the cat that was the best hunter could. Frank was too Clever. One of my cats even became friends with him. And played with him. Frank would go up to my cat and start climbing him and wrestling. My cat never hurt him. Then one day Frank was gone. Never saw him sense. So this is a domestic rat that was perfectly fine on it's own. Sure maybe if you have a really spoiled rat that has lost all instinct to the point where it doesn't realize it's a rat anymore, then yeah it could get depressed. All I'm saying is I have had Lilly for a while by herself and she seems perfectly happy. Now I could be wrong but these were just my thoughts. Just because I know that a lot of the younger participants here just simply cant get two. They are still under the will of their parents and have no choice but to follow their rules. But you can tell they are generally worried for their Rats because they are afraid of it getting depressed. In all Honesty is it really extremely necessary to have two? Or is it just that people think it's cute when rats are together. Or both? Is there any real hard evidence that it is absolutely necessary to have partners?


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## zimmyzam (Sep 9, 2007)

I don't think they've found it necissary, per say. But it's definately perferable.

Of course a rat could live on its own! I mean, they're not going to die of depression from not having a cagemate or something. And if they're really family pets, as in, they free-range the house or get played with half the day or blah blah blah, then it's very unlikely that they'll get very depressed at all (this is my own logic, feel free to counter it).

But of course, you should want to aim for two. The reasons why are repeated over and over throughout the site, so I won't list them. It's especially better to get more than one if you can't spend all your time with them, because chances are they'll get depressed if the most you can give them is barely five minutes a day outside the cage. At least with two, they'll always have interation with somebody else, whether or not it's you.

So, there you go. My views =)


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

Hahah I won't counter your logic because it's good logic. And I know it's repeated over and over why. And I have two. This post was really for the youngins on this site you can't help their situation. So that maybe they wont feel so guilty.


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

If a rat "forgot" it was a rat, it would do quite the opposite; 

Wild Norway rats live in colonies. That's a fact. They even have been known to co-raise the young of related females.

There is also (disputed) evidence that they have a highly structured social system sort of like wolves, to oversimplify it. There are possibly even Alphas, Betas, and Gammas.

So if that's what you mean by scientific evidence...

But no, a rat won't "die" without another rat. But will it live as long as a rat without a cagemate? Possibly not. There's evidence to support that as well (also disputed). Unfortunately, Norway rat behavior just isn't right up there on scientific research priority lists right now. :wink: So a lot of the research you're going to find will be incomplete or inconclusive.

I don't think it's "spoiling" a rat to provide it with an environment that is natural to it, which would include colony living.


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## Emster (Dec 9, 2007)

Both rats and humans are social animals...

Imagine how you'd feel having no contact with another human being for the rest of your life and possibly the only contact you did have was with something that wasn't the same species as you.
I think I'd feel a tad lonely and depressed.

Just my two cents.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

> I don't think it's "spoiling" a rat to provide it with an environment that is natural to it, which would include colony living.


haha I never said it was wrong to spoil. Shoot I spoil all my animals. I love them to pieces. I'm just saying that after a period of time living with humans they begin to depend on them. I really doubt that the environments we make for them are natural. Safe yes, natural no. I didn't know they had cush blankets and hammocks food that and fresh water that magically appears,toys, and delicious yogies in the wild. It's Kind of like at zoos when they are trying to help endangered species. Like Pandas or certain tigers. They take them away from their mothers at a certain age and raise them so that they will be healthy and survive. But still letting them back with regular tigers at a certain age so they don't become totally dependent on humans. However they could never totally be set free into the wild because to a certain extent they still rely on humans for food water and medicine. Get one of those tigers put it in the wild with a group of Tigers that were brought up in the wild who learned everything from their mothers and have to face dangers everyday. And I don't think it will survive very well. Thats What I meant by "Forget" My Dog is still a dog. Does Dog things. But Is the most spoiled dog. She sleeps on a soft warm bed with pillows and blankets. Is always assured dog food as well as people food. Always has fresh water. In the hot weather she has a cool air conditioned house and in the winter a warm house to live in. Something that most wild dogs do not have. So our rats are still rats. But if you think about it we do everything for them. They are totally dependent on us. Is really what I meant. As far as the Norwegian Rats hahah this isn't Norway. But I am not disagreeing that Rats don't live in large groups. Even Ratatouille shows us that lol



> Imagine how you'd feel having no contact with another human being for the rest of your life and possibly the only contact you did have was with something that wasn't the same species as you.
> I think I'd feel a tad lonely and depressed.


Keep in mind they are not totally alone. They have contact with plenty of things every day. I'm not saying get one rat put it in a cage lock it away and throw away the key. Rats always have a human or animal around If you happened to have other pets that get along with it. The most they are alone is when your at work or school for a few hours. Shoot I'm sure everyone has spent a few hours on their own and been ok. It's actually nice sometimes. I mean If your not ever giving your rat any kind of contact then you shouldn't even have one. But you made a good point to my "forget statement". Humans are social ok so say you were raised by rats in the wild. Are you gonna be able to go socialize with other humans in the human world? lol


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## Emster (Dec 9, 2007)

AceYourFace said:


> > Imagine how you'd feel having no contact with another human being for the rest of your life and possibly the only contact you did have was with something that wasn't the same species as you.
> > I think I'd feel a tad lonely and depressed.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind they are not totally alone. They have contact with plenty of things every day. I'm not saying get one rat put it in a cage lock it away and throw away the key. Rats always have a human or animal around If you happened to have other pets that get along with it. The most they are alone is when your at work or school for a few hours. Shoot I'm sure everyone has spent a few hours on their own and been ok. It's actually nice sometimes. I mean If your not ever giving your rat any kind of contact then you shouldn't even have one. But you made a good point to my "forget statement". Humans are social ok so say you were raised by rats in the wild. Are you gonna be able to go socialize with other humans in the human world? lol


I don't think you've read what I put properly.
Basically it's all well and merry having humans and other animals to play with, but a a part of them will miss having another rat to play with (A member of their own species. Especially as when they were babies they had brothers and sisters.

Exactly. A rat is brought up by other rats, so therefore can't socialze with humans and other animals like they would a fellow rat, hence why it is better to get two.

I was basically trying to explain why rats should have a cagemate in a simple way. Asking you to put yourself in their shoes and not having another member of your species to interact with.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

Oh no I did read it I got what you were saying and I think it makes a perfect point. No one likes to be alone all the time. Did you see I am Legend. A good example right there. Most likely they don't remember being a baby though. And like I said from the very beginning I wasn't disagreeing at all that rats need at least one other rat. I was merely asking if there was any hard scientific evidence. Because I feel bad that those who love rats and love having them but have no control over how many rats they are allowed to have are feeling guilty or like a bad owner even if thought their is absolutely nothing they can do. Some people's parents will probably never budge on their decision. But they shouldn't have to blame themselves for it. Or be mad at their parents. And I would hope that this little debate that just happened would help parents understand from both sides. We all made some good points in here and maybe this can be another print out for a parent to read.


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

AceYourFace said:


> haha I never said it was wrong to spoil. Shoot I spoil all my animals. I love them to pieces. I'm just saying that after a period of time living with humans they begin to depend on them. I really doubt that the environments we make for them are natural. Safe yes, natural no. I didn't know they had cush blankets and hammocks food that and fresh water that magically appears,toys, and delicious yogies in the wild. It's Kind of like at zoos when they are trying to help endangered species. Like Pandas or certain tigers. They take them away from their mothers at a certain age and raise them so that they will be healthy and survive. But still letting them back with regular tigers at a certain age so they don't become totally dependent on humans. However they could never totally be set free into the wild because to a certain extent they still rely on humans for food water and medicine. Get one of those tigers put it in the wild with a group of Tigers that were brought up in the wild who learned everything from their mothers and have to face dangers everyday. And I don't think it will survive very well. Thats What I meant by "Forget" My Dog is still a dog. Does Dog things. But Is the most spoiled dog. She sleeps on a soft warm bed with pillows and blankets. Is always assured dog food as well as people food. Always has fresh water. In the hot weather she has a cool air conditioned house and in the winter a warm house to live in. Something that most wild dogs do not have. So our rats are still rats. But if you think about it we do everything for them. They are totally dependent on us. Is really what I meant. As far as the Norwegian Rats hahah this isn't Norway. But I am not disagreeing that Rats don't live in large groups. Even Ratatouille shows us that lol.


Ok...well...first of all, our rats are the species _rattus norvegicus_, also called the _Norway_ rat, also called the brown rat. I wasn't making a reference to Norway.

Secondly, no, it's not like a zoo with tigers, because even though those tigers are in captivity they are not _domesticated_. Our pet rats are. 

And thirdly, even though dogs are domesticated and "spoiled" by being fed and watered daily, they still have MANY instincts which have to be satisfied; which no matter how "spoiled" they are, you will never be able to ignore. Try to put a border collie in an apartment and don't excercise its mind or body and see what happens to the apartment. (LoL, I have seen this firsthand). 

A rat has certain needs besides being fed and watered, just like a dog needs more than a soft bed and food and air conditioning. Rats are social, both wild rats and domesticated ones. 

BTW, those of you who are unable to keep more than one rat, I don't mean to sound preachy. :wink: 

My first rat was a loner, because I didn't know they should be kept in pairs, and he lived a happy life and was well-loved.  

But now that I've seen how rats interact with one another in groups, I see how essential that rat social interaction is.


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## junior_j (Jan 24, 2008)

Lol , i loved reading your little discussions hehe  it doesnt seem that there is any argueing going on , just people putting there views and opinions across 

I know that my rats would be lonely if i separated them ..heres a story

i got my first two rats *celery and stella* from the local Jollys..there was one little rat left behind ...i didnt think nothing of it *first time rat owner* i got in and was eaten up with guilt , i read about rats being in pairs ect and i watched my two having fun and snuggling up together , then i would think of the poor rat alone in the petstore , no one to cuddle up with  i felt guilty so the next day my brother went and got the last rat for me  now my three girls love each other and playing and whats more , the 3rd rat i got cos i felt guilty is *can i say lol* my fav cos she gets excited when i go near her  
so i would say yeah at least in pairs is good..its a bit like a p.e group when theres one person left and no one really wants to pick them  then they end up alone and on a bench but they still survive its just like that but not quite the same ya know lol 
Jess x


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

It is necessary? Depends on your definition. Would every rat die if left alone? Well, no. Would some of them suffer? Yes. Rats have, many times, shown to suffer from depression when they're loner rats. Some have developed aggression issues they didn't have before they were alone. Some develop behaviors such as barbering. Some over-eat, some under-eat. Some get lazy. Some get necrotic. I think all these things could point to... Yes, in most cases, rats would do best when kept with other rats.

Many of us who work with rats in rescues and shelters - or those of us who have many rescued rats, SEE the difference. When rats come in, who've been marked as "aggressive towards rats" or have been loner rats, or rats with behavior problems and no rat friends, and they are introduced (properly) to other rats? Well, once you've seen that, you may not ask if it's necessary anymore! :wink: The rats blossom in ways they wouldn't have alone. They often loose any aggression they may have had. They're obviously much happier, more content. Some even seem more healthy. They have friends! Someone to groom the spots they can't reach! Someone to play with! To share the cage with! To curl up with! To even squabble with (hehe)! The change is VERY obvious.

The only time this doesn't work, obviously, is with rat-aggressive rats. However, they are quite rare and often, sputering eliminates it entirely.



> The only thing I will add is none of us are scientist, naturalists, or Rat experts.


Well, some rat fanciers have been at it for years, and know a lot! Experience counts, doesn't it? As for scientists... In labs, rats are kept in groups. Why? Because it's been proven they do best when kept together!  If they're the experts, then they're probably on to something!

Anyhow, it's an interesting discussion, but in many, many ways, it has been proven. Once you see the difference another rat makes to one that's been alone, it's hard to argue.


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## Katherose (Nov 20, 2007)

[edited out by mod because post it is referring to was deleted] [...]do you know the difference between surviving and thriving? because yes, a rat can _survive_ without stimulation and a large enough cage and adequate food and a cage mate, but from the research I've done (haven't had rats long enough to say from my own experience) rats rarely _thrive_ without stimulation and companionship.

Just my two cents, I had to separate my rats when I got them spayed because they kept ripping stitches out. Granted, during that time they also had e-collars on so I'm sure that affected them as well, but they all seemed really mopey. After a while, I put them back together--still with e-collars, and they all brightened up. Mostly they had sat staring when they were each by themselves, but when together they had all curled up on top of each other and were actually sleeping.

I would say that having a rat all by its lonesome is not necessary for them to survive. However, to thrive, then yes, I would say that it is necessary. Maybe there's not a whole lot of scientific research, but if this were not so, why would so many breeders and rescues demand that the rats be adopted out in pairs unless proof of another rat that was going to be a companion could be given? There's got to be a reason for that.


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## junior_j (Jan 24, 2008)

Hmmm... you all make relativly good points 

im learning just from this topic alone 

i dont think pet shops tell u to buy to for money reasons - i do however think they encourage to buy a lot of things that your ratties dont need..

when i got my two i was told they need this and this and this and this ..and when i went on a few forums and site i learnt most rats lived long lifes without half the stuff i was told i should buy...

i think if u can afford and manage rats in groups/pairs do it for the rats sake - i would hate being in a room all by myself all day long  so im sure my rat would 
put it this way
would u give ur rat a mouldy bit of rubbish food - no cos you wouldnt eat a mouldy bit of food why should ur rat
would u stay in a room all day by yourself with no friend/companio - no so why should your rat
if how ever u can often get ur rat out and they have many stimulating toys and a clean cage and lots of attention ect they would get on a lot better then a rat who didnt have all that and was by itself
Jess x


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## roostarr (Dec 14, 2007)

[edit by mod to add that aceyourface did make a comment assuming that there were no experts-ie scientists or naturalists- on the board. i deleted the post as for the most part it was a tangent, forgetting that it was alluded to later in the thread]

OK... well since you said there weren't any scientists or naturalists here... sorry but i hate to burst the bubble and announce...

I'm both! 

I have an Honours Degree in Animal Biology, with my personal choice to focus on Animal behaviour, Animal Psychology and Mammals are my animals of choice!

and whilst i haven't kept rats personally for all that long, i can assure you that there has been extensive research on the psychological well being of rats with/without company and those that have company are generally much happier, healthier and live longer! 

as for the intelligence of rats and the rate at which they can learn new things and retain that knowledge, well that is simply astounding! and without the appropriate stimulation they simply do not thrive physically (weak musculature from lack of exercise to name just one thing) and they most certainly will not thrive psychologically! 

imagine how you would feel if you were forced to stay in a tiny room all day every day with nothing but plain dry bread to eat and absolutely nothing else in the room... no windows, no bed, no clothes, no blankets, no carpets, no tv, no internet.... get the point? that would be the most boring and unfulfilling life... and if you were all alone in there with nobody to talk to ever, get comfort from etc well how long do you think it would take you before you started screaming and crying to be let out or to have some of the comforts i mentioned weren't included?

pet stores are businesses and yes they do want you to but things... thats why they are displayed well and priced competitively with other stores and why they have special offers on things... they most certainly don't try to get you to buy things just to get more money! that opinion is down right ridiculous! the things they suggested you got for the rat were things that were necessery to giving it a happy healthy and fun life... and the fact that you and others cannot see that tells me that you really shouldn't have pets if you aren't prepared to provide them with all the things they need to thrive in a perfect environment!


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## junior_j (Jan 24, 2008)

wow , its nice to have some one who does really really know animals ..
i agree without the stimulation ect another rat and other accessorys offer then the rat is going to suffer in the long run ..

my rats come out at least 6 times a week and thats to play in the bath tub (empty ) and i put different things in there each time for them to play and explore and i change things around there cage and add new things they may like ...
if u had a baby it would not learn by sitting in a play pen constantly looking at the same boring rattle ..it would be bored and suffer ..
i hope im not offending anybody with my opionion and i apoligise if i do but rats should come in pairs or more to help them have a better life
Jess x


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## roostarr (Dec 14, 2007)

i wish i still had a bath tub (it had to be taken out to fit the new shower cabinet! grrr) because its really easy to stimulate them in a different way by using things like bath tubs... 

you mentioned you don't have any water in the tub, but it might not be a bad idea to introduce them to water at an early age since Rats in the wild regularly have to swim to get from one location to another... so starting with the tiniest little puddle and building up a little more each time at a rate they are comfortable with will get them used to being in water and being wet... which will let them have fun swimming with floaty toys to play with as a different type of stimulation and if they are comfortable with water... then if/when they might require a bath for hygiene reasons they don't freak out about getting wet and as a result won't be as likely to claw your arms to bits trying to escape the "evil/scary" water!


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## cjshrader (Feb 15, 2007)

[edited out by mod because post it is referring to was deleted]

[...] pet stores will try to sell you stuff you don't need. They'll try to sell you salt licks or mineral chews or drops to put in your water or rat balls. Rats don't need any of these things. However if a lot of people on this forum generally have the same opinion, I take that to be the "right" opinion. And there's plenty of reasons why a rat should A) Have a companion and B) Have lots of toys to stimulate them.


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## mink (Jun 24, 2007)

I'm sold simply on the fact that 2 rats can clean each other where one rat can not reach themselves.. the hygiene benefits improve their overall health and resistance to getting sick. Rats wash SO much.. just imagine how many times an area or two has gone unattended if they're alone. Even between baths... yuk.

Rats have been known to make Lots of noises at higher frequency that we can not even hear... it would be great if they had a rat friend that can not only hear, but speak their language! A companion they can convey feelings to, like - "I'm worried", "I'm frightened", and know there is a sentient being that understands this, and may have the same feelings. 
Its a basic comfort that helps a sense of stability, I think.


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## junior_j (Jan 24, 2008)

After looking at this thread i decided to really watch my rats and see how they interact with each other 

they wash eachother
they re-assure each other
they play chase with eachother
they eat together
they explore things together

i think if i only had one rat it wouldnt explore as good or even have as much confidence i know my rats learn off one another for example if one rat eats the new food the other two soon follow
Jess x


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

(xkatiebabyx will be looked into. it seems enough of you suspect her of being a troll, we will figure out if she's a troll or just a really really new noob. until then please consider her a noob when replying to any comments. if they are offensive report it to modreport with the link and we will look into it.)

there is one thing i would like to add to this topic. people here have been saying that rats will not die if there is only one. more often i think that is probably the case but it is not always. from experience i remember of at least 2 cases off the top of my head where the lone rat either died or was trying to die. 

the first one had been raised with his brother all his life and had always had him with him. when his brother died he became withdrawn. went off his food. generally grieved. the owner was not going to get anymore rats again so did not get this rat another friend. the greif of not having his brother or another rat friend did things to this rat's mind and his personality greatly changed. at the end of 4 weeks this rat (who had now completely stopped eating and had to be force fed) started throwing himself at the cage wall until he broke his neck. in essence he committed suicide. this is what was told to me by the owner when i was going through issues with my lone rat. 

the other experience i had was with my first rat. when i got into rats i had done no research and so had only gotten one. she went everywhere with me, even to school. but once school was out my infant son took more of my time and pocket was not out as much as she was used to. she still got out when my son was sleeping and i still interacted with her each and everyday but it certainly was not the same as before. she started to go off her food. she would not even eat banana chips, her favorite food. her temperment changed and she just seemed sad. i heard the story posted above when i was trying to find out what was the matter with her, other then having no interest in anything anymore she didn't seem sick. well, i was afraid she was straving herself so i immediately went out and got a second rat. when i put the new rat in the cage pocket sniffed her, groomed her then camped out beside the food bowl and chowed down! i have no doubt that had i not gotten her a friend she would have straved herself and died. 

so perhaps not every rat takes being alone as badly as that. but they can. it is possible. and in any case, i have have done rescues of lone rats, introduced them to my group and have seen the drastic change. like kimmiekins said, they blossom. there have been members here that got one rat and was haing issues getting them to trust them and not be afraid of everything. when they got another rat they are almost always floored by the change they see in their original rat. there is almost always an immediate noticable difference in their rat. 

yet, it is understandable that getting multiple rats is not always possible. that does not mean to stop trying altogether but that does not mean you are condeming your rat to a miserable life either. so long as they get a lot of attention from stimulation they can be happy, even if they aren't as happy as they can be. the thing though, is that we can only do our best, sometimes that may not seem enough but so long as we try our very best no one, not even your rat, will blame you. if i was not able to get pocket a friend my best would have been to find her a home with a friend. but that was in her case where it was clear she was suffering without one. for her, not having a buddy, not having the level of interaction that she was used to was not enough. that does not mean every rat is going to be like that. do the best you can for the rat you have. you'll rat will let you know if its enough.

edit: clarification on announcement.


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## junior_j (Jan 24, 2008)

My rats are all being cute at the moment lol !!! 

im gettin two more this week woohoo 

i can honeslty say i would never ever just have one rat cos i know i wouldnt be able to meet the requriments of the amount of attention the rat would need.
My gilrs get over 4 hours of attention at day from me- this included me being in the room with them so im talkin to them ect - this included me feeding them cleaning them ect and also included me doing free range time with them lol ..but i spend over 4 hours in my room just at my pc and my rats love watching me and starfishing lol 
Jess x


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## mopydream44 (Jun 10, 2007)

The story about the rat who committed suicide is horrible . 

I did want to add something. In another thread we were talking about Rats being capable of meta cognition, which was previously only thought to be present in humans and primates but if they are capable of a much higher level of thinking than we thought, it's a natural leap to make that they are capable of emotion.

As other have said certain emotions CAN be deadly. 

One other thing. I was told that my rat Teto would heal faster in the presence of her cage mates provided they didn't chew at her stitches.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

I didn't read every single word in every single reply, so I might be repeating some things, but thought I'd add in my thoughts as well.

First, some background information on me, so you know where I am coming from. First, I have had pet rats for over fifteen years. That's go to amount for something, right? Second, I have been breeding pet rats for about seven of those fifteen years. That should count for something else. And on top of that, I am a biologist, graduated from a four year university with a degree in biological sciences and an emphasis in conservation. I work as a field biologist, I observe, study, research, and work with animals on a daily basis. And to add one more to the list, every job I've had I've worked with animals. I worked on a horse ranch, at a pet store (and given the unofficial title of "Rat Queen"), in a university lab (specializing in spiders and the DNA of spider silks), and now as a field biologist. Hopefully that means there's something behind what I say! 

With that out of the way...

No, a rat will not die without a rat companion, but will they suffer for it? Very possibly. 

First ask yourself: At what age does a person first bring home a rat? Most people prefer babies. Depending on where the rat comes from, it might be as young as three weeks, or possibly closer to six, seven, or eight weeks of age. Either way, it is still considered a baby. At these ages the rat is aware of its surroundings, and it has already started to bond with its relatives (relatives being those rats it is caged with). Even a rat at a pet store all alone in its cage bonded with someone: It was not raised alone, it would not have survived, and pet stores have such high turnover rates chances are the last cagemate was bought that day or the day before, so that rat is only recently alone. Not only has the rat started to form bonds, but it is just starting to learn the social rules of being a rat, but its knowledge is not yet complete. 

Now take that into consideration: A) Rat already starting to form bonds with other rats, B) Rat starting to learn the social rules of being a rat. 
IF you decide to buy/adopt a rat and keep it by itself, you will be ripping its world apart. First of all, the rat has already started bonding. You are now ripping that bond apart by taking it away from all the rats it grew up with, and sticking it alone in a cage. Yes, you might be giving it attention, BUT you are not a substitute for another rat. Depending on where you buy/adopt the rat from, it might be frightened and take some time to adjust, ripping it apart from its friends is only going to make this process more stressful and lengthen the time for the process to complete itself. This is the case with most pet store rats. Now if you adopt/buy two rats, yes you might not be selecting two rats that are the bestest best friends in the whole wide world, BUT they are bonded, they do know each other and they will interact and enjoy each other's company. 

Switching from A to B: When you buy a single rat, not only are you ripping it from its bonded companions, but you are also ripping apart its entire social world. Let's switch from rats to dogs for a second. How many dogs out there are neurotic, destructive, disruptive, disrespectful, unsocial or anti-social, and otherwise have behavioral problems? There are a LOT of dogs, more than anyone would like to admit! Now why are there so many dogs with so many problems? For a number of reasons. First of all, many people keep single dogs. Dogs are social animals (just like rats), and live in a pack. Some people argue that dogs can adjust to having a human pack, rather than a dog pack, BUT how many people really have the knowledge, skill, and ability to take the place of the dog's pack? Not many. Most people treat dogs like furry little people. This is NOT how dogs want to be treated. In fact, many dogs see this as weakness and lack of leadership, and since dogs live a pack, they NEED a leader, and when there's no leader, the dog will take over. This leads to problems. Now there are of course lots of other reasons dogs have behavioral issues, but this is one of the big reasons, and this is also where a lot of other reasons stem from. So let's apply that to rats now. Rats are social animals, they live in packs just like dogs. When you buy a single rat, not only are you ripping it out of that pack, but you are ripping apart its whole social order. Yes, you might give the rat plenty of attention, but can you truly take the place of another rat? There IS scientific evidence that rats communicate with sounds that we are unable to hear (much like bats emit ultra-sonic sounds to "see" their surroundings and locate their prey), but we can't emit these sounds. So in a way that single rat has been put into "solitary confinement". It can no longer communicate. Sure we can talk to it, but that's not the same communication (and comfort that comes from that communication) the rat would receive from another rat. On top of that, when a single baby rat is bought, it doesn't yet understand how to be a rat. Now think about those dogs again: Many behavioral problems come in when people try to treat their dogs like fuzzy little humans. Most people do not know how to treat a dog like a dog. Now how many people do you think really know how to treat a rat like a rat? So when you take that unsocialized baby rat and stick it all by itself, it will never learn to be a rat. That CAN lead to some very severe behavioral problems. Just like those dogs, the rat can become neurotic, destructive, disruptive, disrespectful, unsocial, and anti-social. And this can manifest itself in a number of ways. These behavioral problems aren't just behavioral, but physical as well. A neurotic rat may start to chew on itself, causing injury. A disrespectful rat may bite a human (perhaps to assert its dominance), and as a result get locked away in its cage for life, let to its own devices, and further developing other problems. And so on. All of these can combine to shorten the rat's life. 

So with all of that said, can a rat live by itself and be completely happy? Maybe, but do we really know if that rat is completely happy, or if it just SEEMS happy to us. Remember, we can't communicate on the rat's level, what looks like a happy animal, may not be such a happy animal. BUT even if the animal is happy, could it be happier (and healthier) still with a companion? Absolutely. So is it really fair to deny the rat a companion? Not really.

Now speaking as a breeder, I keep my rats in communities, and what I have observed and experienced with these rats has convinced me this is the better way to care for them. I have noticed that rats kept in communities are more active as well as interactive. They are friendlier towards people, and more out going. The bold, adventurous rats help to bring the shy, nervous rats out of their shells. At the same time those bold rats are mellowed slightly by the more subdued rats. This mix of personalities helps keep everyone in harmony, but also happier and healthier. And by keeping them in communities, they always have someone to play with, cuddle with, groom, keep warm, and so on. They are never left wishing for attention.

Here is something else to consider: When are rats most active? At night, we most people are sleeping. So knowing this, can you say a human can truly take the place of another rat? I don't understand how. Also think about the amount of time the rat spends alone. So maybe you have the rat out while you are home and awake, but how often are you not home or not awake? Someone who works an eight hour job every day, has a one hour commute each direction, and sleeps eight hours of the day will only have six hours left to give the rat attention. But during those eight hours during the day the rat is alone. During those eight hours at night when the rat is awake and craving attention, it is alone. Is that kind to the rat? And what about students? They may be at school for six hours of the day, but have to leave home an hour early to catch the bus, and won't get back until an hour or two after school gets out. Then perhaps their parents won't allow them to play with the rat until all three hours worth of homework is done, and then they too need to get eight hours of sleep. That leaves only five hours left to give the rat attention, but knowing parents it will be even less time because we didn't take into account the time necessary for chores or meals (and I know my parents would have died if I tried to bring my rats with me to the dinner table!). Is that fair or kind to the rat? Sure every situation is different, and many people will have more time than this, BUT those people will still be absent for a number of hours, either while they sleep, work, run errands, or whatever else they need to do during the day. During that time, what does the solo rat do with its time? Remember, rats are social animals, they crave companionship. For all of those hours alone, a rat is yearning for companionship. This isn't a human trait attributed to a non-human being, it is the very nature of the beast. 

Now you mention children whose parents won't allow them to get two rats. One must ask: If they can't take care of the rat properly, should they even be allowed to get a rat? That may sound harsh, but that's the harsh reality of life. The rat is a living, breathing creature. It needs to be properly cared for. What happens when the child gets a single rat who does not adjust well to single life, and the child gets bit? One of several things: Rat gets thrown out, rat gets returned to pet store, rat gets forgotten in cage. Many times child becomes frightened of rats in general, and there's one more bad rep against rats (not that we don't have enough already), something that possibly could have been prevented had the rat been PROPERLY cared for and given a companion. Yes, I have seen people keep single rats, and those rats became aggressive, yet when properly introduced to a companion, all aggression went away. That's the nature of the beast: They ARE social animals and NEED a social order that humans simply can't provide alone. 

To further demonstrate what I mean: If a child wanted to adopt a pit bull, would that be acceptable? Perhaps, but only if said child has the help and support from EXPERIENCED parents who could ensure that dog gets the socializing and training it requires to be a good family pet. But what if the parents won't provide that, would it be acceptable for the child to keep an untrained, unsocialized pit bull? I would be astounded if someone said it was. The same applies to the rat. It is not just "preferable", it is PROPER care to make sure the rat has a companion. Providing a rat with another rat companion is equivalent to providing a dog with proper socialization and training. Rats will interact and teach each other how to be rats. Rats who know how to be rats will be better adjusted and better pets. I have seen this time and time again in all my years of keeping rats: Rats kept with at least one other companion (though more companions are better) make better pets, plain and simple, no ifs, ands, or buts.


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## xkatiexbabyx (Feb 6, 2008)

ok well if i get another rat for baby 2 be with will they hurt each other? and do i need 2 get a new cage??


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

xkatiexbabyx said:


> ok well if i get another rat for baby 2 be with will they hurt each other? and do i need 2 get a new cage??


Depending on how big your rats are. You will have to go through proper quarantine which means keep them apart for three weeks and make sure the new rat has no illness that could be passed onto your current rat. Then you can begin to gradually introduce them. Here there is a thread all about it  

http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3991.html

If your cage is not large enough for two rats then you may have to get a new one.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Right. I'm going to ignore the bickering here. Just remember the reason for this forum - information. This post to educate newbs into the reasons why/why not keeping rats alone is/is not a good idea - not to argue among ourselves. Collectively, we are a great source of information - individually, we're not much at all.

[i will leave the above statement as it is clearly written and a good reminder that i would have made myself, but she already said it and probably better then i could anyway-mod twitch]

So - back to the original topic, shall we? 

I see rat company like this;

Imagine yourself in a house, owned by rats. You are the only human in the house, and you are not permitted to leave. You like the rats, they make good company - BUT you cannot converse with them, you can't interract intellectually with them. Of course, you're not unhappy having them as company, you'll eventually begin to project human values on the little guys (much like rats projecting rattie values on us - grooming us etc) but is it the same as having people to talk to? (whoever mentioned I am Legend - good example!) Not really.

I have two examples for you to consider;

Jake - I know that Jake desperately wants company. A few months into getting him, he lost both his cagemates (both older gents) and became incredibly depressed. He grieved so much, he became lethargic, un co-operative and generally just down in the dumps. I attempted to introduce him to some new little boys - but every introduction was met with either severe aggression or complete lethargy. He would ignore them completely and freeze up and not move while they were around him. Eventually, he 'hardened up' to his life as a singleton - the introductions were too traumatic for him to continue them. But although he's alone and content - he's not happy. I see him all the time sitting in his cage watching Ritchie in the cage next to him. Or he will sit beside Ben's cage just sitting and looking in. He's especially partial to the girls (he's not a very sex orientated rat) and will sit there and brux next to their cage (not aggressively). I know I may be projecting emotions onto him - but it seems very much as if he is in an undecided state of wanting company but not wanting the risk of losing them again. I feel so sorry for him, and am constantly on the look-out for the perfect cage mate for him. Now he's in his golden years - I know he would _thrive_ with company.

Now; Max. Max is my wild rat. I kept her deliberately as a singleton initially (once she was old enough to separate from her brother) through advice from my vet; she's too wild. They said she would view my domestics with their different behaviour as 'aliens' and react unfavourably (aka, go for the throat). However, although she was only left alone for 2 months, she turned neurotic. She never showed signs of aggression and her rat/human bonds grew slowly, but steadily. But inside her cage, left to her own devices, she would freak out, chew constantly at the bars of her cage (I mean for hours on end, until her lips were red raw) and threw her cage around two or three times a day. She was not a happy girl at all. Then, I took a risk (a big risk but I was desperate for her) and introduced her during a free range session to my girls. Well, much to my (and my vets surprise) she was in her element. Her social skills aren't the best - she's a little rowdy at times. But she's calmed down unbelievably, no more neurotic behaviour, she doesn't chew at the bars much and she behaves now like any other of my domestics. The best therapy she had was rat therapy. With the company of the Oddballs - she has literally blossomed into a fantastically well behaved little girl 

Saying all of that though; I have a few other single boys who are perfectly happy on their own. They are alone due to their own choice (aggression) and they deal remarkably. Although - I can imagine that them being in the same room as my other rats and being able to interract via cage bars during free-range time is slightly different to having no rat company what-so-ever. But it's not impossible for single rats to be completely content on their own. It will depend on the rats coping skills and individually personality.

I would say though, that at the first signs of neurotic behaviour or depression - it's a serious issue that will have to be looked into.

Edit - took me so long to write that (twice!) I missed the new posts.

Katie - if proper intro's are carried out you may find that you have no problems. Girls (I've found) are much easier to intro than boys, and introducing younger rats to older rats seems to work better too.

Of course, it's not full-proof. You may find that they just don't get along. Maybe think of getting another two, so if the intro fails Baby's situation will remain the same, but your new little girl will have company? 

And yep - if your cage isn't big enough for more, you'll have to get a new one


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i have deleted posts not pertinent to the topic. please stay on topic and keep a level head in discussions. i feel this is generally a good topic with only a few dispersed unrelated tangents (which have been deleted) and so will not lock it.


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## CaptainFlow (May 16, 2007)

I personally feel that while two is great, THREE is better! 

I know, more rats=more fun automatically, and you're certainly fulfilling rattie companion instinct with at least one friend. But after having had rats in ones (back in the day when I didn't know any better, we've all been there) and twos, and now with a trio, I feel like that's the best. This way it's more likely that two will be awake to play with each other, more bodies for snuggling, cuter totem poles (what I call it when the rats poke their heads out of wherever they're sleeping on top of one another), and it's not just alpha rat/lesser rat, but more of society. 

Of course, I haven't hit more than three yet... I'm sure that's even BETTER, but I also feel like three isn't quite over the brink of insanity that leads to the huge crazy colonies (which I totally intend to do some day!). So it's more reasonable for those of us with lesser resources who want the experience of a colony.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

CaptainFlow said:


> I personally feel that while two is great, THREE is better!
> 
> I know, more rats=more fun automatically, and you're certainly fulfilling rattie companion instinct with at least one friend. But after having had rats in ones (back in the day when I didn't know any better, we've all been there) and twos, and now with a trio, I feel like that's the best. This way it's more likely that two will be awake to play with each other, more bodies for snuggling, cuter totem poles (what I call it when the rats poke their heads out of wherever they're sleeping on top of one another), and it's not just alpha rat/lesser rat, but more of society.
> 
> Of course, I haven't hit more than three yet... I'm sure that's even BETTER, but I also feel like three isn't quite over the brink of insanity that leads to the huge crazy colonies (which I totally intend to do some day!). So it's more reasonable for those of us with lesser resources who want the experience of a colony.


Hahah I wish I could do that. But I was pushin it by bringing home a second lol But you do present a good point.


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