# Daddy Rat Met Babies...Weird Behavior?



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, no one really had advice on putting daddy rat Remus with his babies.

They will be 14 days old tomorrow, so free ranging quite soon. Right now, their eyes are not open. I decided (maybe foolishly) to introduce Remus to a male baby and a female baby (my most docile yet curious babies) through the cage bars. He sniffed a bit but seemed confused as to what these furry things were. I grabbed Remus and held the baby, and tried letting him meet them in his new cage. As soon as the baby crawled an inch, Remus bolted. He went to his hideyhole and peeked out, clearly terrified. 
Well, that's not very Remus-y behavior. He _never_ is afraid - he's attempted to attack parakeets and have already bit my dogs. Why was he running from a tiny little baby --*his *baby!? I tried a female kit, and bringing it close to where he hid (but outside the bars, as I did not want a terrified rat to strike out) and he just bolted to hide elsewhere.

What is going on? Remus is a mild-mannered, hyper, curious rat who from day one hasn't shown fear. His babies have resided beside him for about a week without an issue. Does this mean my dreams of a mass free range aren't possible? The babies again won't be ready to free range for a couple days. (Here's a video of where they are, people them are calling them my babies because of my obsessive sharing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpMYvdTx9eM&feature=youtu.be ) Of all possible things, I thought Remus might not be happy with a rat in his cage. That was worst case. I fully expected Remus to love his kits and be super excited.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Rats are like cats and dogs they don't realize that those little things are their babies or when their older they may try to breed with them, or the brothers and sisters they aren't like us.

It is way to soon to let Remus see or play with the babies they are not in anyway big enough to fight back if Remus decides he doesn't like them even if you are there things can happen to quick. Remus was probably scared because he doesn't know what they are or sure what to think of them.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I act like that around human babies they freak me out. Not like they scare me they're just a little foreign to me and I'm not sure what to do with them lol. 

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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

he probably doesnt know what to do with them. Honestly its seriously risky letting an adult male, even dad, near babies that young, one bite and he will kill them. Plus mum could get very upset about the smell. Please leave it until they are proper little rats rather than babies. I wouldnt introduce an adult male to babies until the babies were substantial and around 6-8 weeks old. The fact hes scared of them might make it worse, as a rat who is afraid is more likley to do something silly


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Won't they be too small if Remus were to turn aggressive until they are over two months? I had thought that rat males were good fathers? When would be the appropriate age to introduce them?

Remus himself is such that I doubt he'd attack. He's never shown a propensity for it in other situations that could warrant it. When he attacked my bird, it looked more like when Remus and Caius see each other through the bars and want to investigate and play with each other. 

They look pretty ratty already, but I guess he could just not understand them. Isn't that only solved with interaction?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

To a male rat a baby is not another rat until it grows up and stays smelling and acting likea rat. A 14 day old baby may look likea little rat to us but it still feeds of its mums milk. It can only just crawl. It smells milky, a bit of poo and of the mum. In the wild an adult male will often seea baby as a snack. Like I said I would not introduce them until the baby was a young rat 6 to 8 weeks, though more towards the latter unless you have a good reason not to. At that age a baby can cope with the rough and tumble that comes with a normal introduction, an adult could still kill one if they really went mad but they could also kill anothwr fully grown male.

Repeated sniffs of other rats often make Malta more wound up. They are simple creatures they like it best when everyone knows therep place ina heirachy. Knowing there are other rats they keep meeting but they can't sort that out can make them more prone to violence. I always aim to intro them once in a neutral space at first then straight to a small carrier for as long as it takes for them to sort it out. Typically from an hour toa couple of days max. I use a small cages to before moving into their full cage. It's known as the carrier method of intros and do far I've not hada bad intro with it and the worst injury wasa bit of nose fluff being pulled out of my alpha by the 7 week old baby


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Hm that's really strange that he would act so nervous like that. Maybe it just depends on the individual rat. With my 3 adult boy rats, none acted strangely towards the babies when introduced. They are not related at all. The first time I let them see a baby, I held one baby in both hands with a finger cage around him so that the boys could only stick their noses in. I opened the boy's door and held the baby in my hands and they came over and sniffed a bit before getting bored a leaving. I did this a few times with them.

The boys have met the mother in person (one on one, I wouldn't put all 3 boys at once with a strange rat) only once while she was still pregnant after I brought her home. Of course she cannot meet them again ever until she or maybe the boys are fixed, but they have been allowed to sniff her through the cage bars but only when I'm holding her face up to them and keeping her lady parts as far away as possible. I know lots of people think it's a myth, but I'm still scared of possible mating through cage bars. I'd rather be safe than sorry. They all are nice, no grabbing at her or trying to bite. I'm hoping that once they are fixed they may be able to live together in the future in their DCN.

When I was letting the babies free range the other day (they are about 2.5 weeks old now) I let one boy out at a time to see the babies. 2 didn't seem to care at all, just a couple sniffs and then wandered around to do his own thing. One was a little more interested and sniffed the babies more carefully, but was very gentle (I had my hands 2 inches above his back the entire time he was near a baby just in case). The babies he was inspecting never squeaked or acted nervous once and he didn't harass them at all or spend more than a couple seconds looking at them, and a few even followed him around the whole time he was in there.

Maybe in the future when your babies are big enough if you really want them to meet the dad, you can try letting them into a neutral zone. I've noticed that some rats get really grabby and bitey behind bars but are fine normally. You can also try putting in a piece of cloth or paper into his cage that the babies have been sleeping/peeing on. I had a little napkin with me to dab the little droplets of pee from the play floor while the babies were running around, adn the boys thought that napkin was WAY more interesting than any baby.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I originally held the baby _just_ out of reach through the cage bars. He sniffed just fine but didn't seem to think there was a baby, and was more interested in my hands, so I decided to open the door and let him come see. Even then, he hid behind his ramp and stretched as far as possible to sniff at the baby (it reminded me of trying to tempt a dog out from under the bed with a biscuit when trying to bathe them). I want to let them meet in the neutral free-range zone when they hit two and a half weeks (which is in like four days), but because there are thirteen babies I wanted to have an idea of his response beforehand. I trust him not to be aggressive, but I worry about the sheer number of babies overwhelming him. I don't have 14 hands (one for each rat...or even 7 hands, two rats per hand), but will be having my boyfriend come round to help monitor the situation.

I really wanted free range to involve everyone, mostly so it could last longer for everyone and also because I have other pets, which of course have to be locked up while the rats are out. It also looks like as of right now I'll be stuck with the majority of the babies, at least for longer than I wanted. I thought things would go better if babies were interacting prior to when they hit puberty. Their cages are both wire and side-by-side (momma's cage has the wires and hardware mesh and daddy's has the same, so I think there are enough bars between them) so I thought he kinda noticed Caius had 13 furry eepers with her. I'll try building him a little "sniff box" of their bedding.

He was just neutered, and since he never previously showed signs of aggression I thought he could be intro'd to them younger than the recommended age. I thought in the wild, male rats only killed kits that weren't theirs?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

They are less likely to kill there own, unfortunately it doesn’t mean they wont. Pet rats are also less likely than wild rats to kill babies, but it does happen. Him being neutered will also help, though it takes a while for his hormones to drop down. I know its probably easier to free range them all together but you do have to look after the babies. Once they are grown up then these things will be a lot easier as the risks will be a lot lower. Its worth having to mess around for 5 more weeks to be able to relax and enjoy the rest of there lives. Its chaotic for me when I have a litter, I normally only have one group of males, but for about 4 months around the birth my numbers shoot up and I go from 1 group of 4-6 rats to anything in the region of 4 groups of 30+rats, before things settle down again. Yes mine is planned so I know what I’m getting myself into but its still lots of juggling to make sure everyone has enough attention.

In terms of intro’s when the babies are old enough it really isn’t that bad. I would split mum off the babies when they are about 4.5 weeks old and split the sexes, then introduce mum to dad (he should be safe by then). That will give you 3 groups, but no one on their own. At this age the babies are ready to fend for themselves and will become more confident without relying on mum so much. You can still put her in with them for an hour a day for a while (stop with the boys after a few days). 

Introducing mum to dad should be easy. Get your smallest cage, clean it out and put in only a water bottle, scatter any food on the floor not in a bowl, this stops one rat hogging or defending it. Then let mum and dad meet each other on a sofa or single bed, expect them to sniff each other a little, dad may try and flip mum, don’t intervene unless they start true aggressive behaviour (there fur will poof up and sidle at each other) pinning, rough grooming, the odd squeak is normal and shouldn’t be stopped. If they actively bite and draw blood (rather than fur tugging) then intervene. If you’re worried then have a water spray or towel handy to drop on top of them. Once they seem less interested in each other move mum first, then dad into the small cage. Expect a repeat performance, possibly slightly more scuffles, but again no true aggression (just dominance scraps at most). If they get fluffy and aggressive at all try banging firmly on the side of the cage, this should distract them and break the train of thought, and lower the levels of tension a bit letting them continue as normal. They should settle after a short while, leave them in there until they are happily sleeping together, then you can start adding an open hammock, some ropes or similar. Keep them in the cage together until they are happy around each other consistently then upgrade to a bigger cage if you have one spare. The babies should probably have preference on cage size though. When moving them to a new cage try putting the substrate from the intro cage into the new cage, this reduces the feeling of it being a new territory and so they are less likely to kick off again.

When the babies are old enough their intros should be similar. I would introduce mum and dad as a bonded couple to the girls (as he’s neutered). Mum should go in without a quibble, I would let her meet the young girls on a sofa quickly, so she can become reacquainted, then add dad. He may be a little rough with the girls but again as above unless he shows some aggression leave him to it, at 7 or 8 weeks the girls will be proper little rats and a lot more tough than a tiny baby. I would expect it to be fairly straight forward, he will feel a little more self confident having spent some time with his lady, and I find most issues come up with rats that lack self confidence (they try and make up for it by being over the top, or un predictable). Again follow the process above. Don’t worry about having a hand on every rat, just watch dad and mum and have your towel or spray bottle handy. Again your leaving them in the smallest cage until they are all settled and relaxed around each other, then move up or add things. Its very much a stages approach. If you need to you can go back a step and give them longer. Its pretty much the most popular intro method amongst rat fanciers here in the UK as it’s the most reliable for getting rats in together quickly and injury free. It works a lot better than repeated meetings over weeks or cage swaps which often makes things a lot worse, especially for adult males.


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