# Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blocks



## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

I recently purchases #2014 Harlan Teklad lab blocks from "The Rat Shop." I've been feeding them to my rats now for a few weeks with their regular diet. Suddenly, the four rats of mine that have never had tumors before in their lives now all have tumors in the same spot and about the same size at the same time. The tumor is on their right side next to or right below their hind leg. Coincidence? I think not. I know they are tumors because I've been through them a lot before. Dora's is actually purple which I can see because of her hair loss. Our vet who has removed many other of my rats tumor says they are purple. This is lovely. Age might be a factor but I am highly suspicious of this food. Its not ever being fed to my rats again. Not with this experience.


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

aww i'm sorry. is the tumor growing somewhere in particular on all your rats? sounds like it could be a kidney or something if it's in that location. it's possible the food had something to do with it, especially since aren't all your rats brothers and sisters? so their genetics can definitely play a role in tumors, and since they're all same in age and genetics maybe the food brought something up in them?

i can ask the nutritionist for the denver zoo about what might be in the lab blocks that's causing this tumor, but it would really help if the tumor was in a particular location and not just random...?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Harlan Teklad is one of the most tested foods out there. I doubt it caused these tumours since they use these feeds with lab rats and want only tumours that they produce. Are your rats older?
Btw HT 2014 is really only good for healthy adults, older rats and growing rats won't get enough nutrition from 14% protein.

I'm sorry you are developing tumours, they sound genetic and cancerous and coincided with your change to HT.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

For anyone curious I got this letter from a friend but it has a lot of info on Harlan Teklad's rat diets since this is the Topic du Jour.

_I found this letter on another site but it is dated Sept 2006 so perhaps it is old info.
Anyway, I thought the information was interesting ....

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... it is a response (from Chuck Benton, Ph.D. Nutritionist/Technical Services for Harlan) to an email from some so I have removed that person's name and info.. Oh and "Dux" is one of his colleagues not the person who emailed them to start with. It is a bit long but enlightening as it were.

"Thank you for your email. I am one of the nutritionists at Harlan Teklad. I am not a salesperson and you will not get sales spin from me. You are correct about the quality of our diets. We manufacture our diets using the same formulas each and every time. We have standard operating procedures that we follow with each and every production. We test our ingredients when they arrive to our production facilities and we audit our suppliers. So you can rest assured that when you feed our diets to your pets, that you are feeding a consistent and quality diet. Much of what Dux said is correct although some of the facts are not quite right or need clarification. First, Harlan Teklad manufactures diets specifically for laboratory animals. Our diets were never designed with the pet food industry in mind. We have never promoted our diets for pet mice and rats nor do we know much about this industry. In fact, until recently I was not aware of how well known our products were in the pet mouse and rat industry. Upon receiving quite a few emails from rat and mouse enthusiasts such as yourself, I did a little research on-line and was shocked at how many websites existed for rat and mouse enthusiasts and of how well known our products are. It was indeed an eye opener for me. So when Dux writes that our diets were not designed with the enthusiast in mind she is correct. However, we have many diets for mice and rats with different levels of nutrition, designed for different purposes and it is not accurate to paint them all with a broad brush as was done. We have over 22 diets for mice and rats. Some were formulated for breeding animals, some for general purpose (breeding and non-breeding), and others for rodents on long term (2 year) studies. First, one has to understand that many of these diets were formulated 15-20+ years ago when there was very little known about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats. To ensure that nutritional deficiencies did not occur the "more is better" approach was followed where diets were formulated to obtain nutrient levels that were known to prevent deficiency signs. Over-nutrition was not viewed as much of a concern compared to malnutrition, especially when feeding mice and rats on short studies. Thus many traditional rodent diets contain more protein that is required. Excessive protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. So excessive dietary protein can be a problem. Most lab animal diets like commercial diets for pigs and chickens are supplemented with vitamins and minerals to prevent deficiencies. Most food for human consumption is supplemented with the same vitamins. The supplemental vitamins do not harm the animal. They are not inherently bad as Dux would suggest.

Today we know much more about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats than be did when most diets were formulated. A breeding rat or mouse only needs about 18% crude protein and a non-breeding adult rat only needs about 9% crude protein or perhaps less. Yet most of our traditional diets contain 22-24% protein. In 2000 we launched a new range of diets which we called our Global Diets because they are available in both the U.S. and Europe. The Global Rodent Diets are 2014, 2016, 2018, and 2019. When these diets were formulated the present knowledge of the nutrient requirements of mice and rats was taken into consideration. Diet 2014 was formulated for non-breeding rodents on long-term studies (2 year). This diet has a low protein content of only 14%. Excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. Mice and rats that are not actively breeding do not require as much protein so it is appropriate to feed this diet to rodents on long-term studies rather than diets that contain 19-24% protein. Diet 2016 was designed quite honestly for customers who were afraid to feed a diet with only 14% protein. It is difficult to get customers who have been feeding 19-24% protein diets to switch to 14% protein but they might warm up to 16% protein, thus 2016. Diets 2018 and 2019 were designed for breeding mice and rats. These animals require more protein and energy to support gestation and most importantly lactation. Diet 2018 contains 18% protein and 6% fat. Diet 2019 contains 19% protein and 9% fat. Increasing protein potentially can harm the kidneys of aging mice and rats but it does not make mice and rats fat. In fact, it has a slight negative effect on weight and fat composition (remember the Atkins diet). Energy intake by the mouse or rat controls body weight and fat deposition. Diets 2014 and 2016 contain about 4% fat while diets 2018 and 2019 contain about 6% fat and 9% fat respectively. So diets 2018 and 2019 contain slightly more energy than 2014 and 2016. Mice and rats fed diets 2014 or 2016 may put on less weight than mice and rats fed 2018 and 2019 over the long term. But it is not the protein content that is responsible. It is the increase in fat and thus the increase in energy content of the diet that is responsible for weight gain and increase fat deposition.

What are my suggestions when it comes to maximizing the life expectancy of your mouse or rat? Well, Dux hit this one right on the head. Excess weight gain is the enemy of longevity in mice and rats as it is in humans and all mammals. Excessive body weight will accelerate the onset of the diseases associated with old age which for many mice and rats is cancer. Long-term studies with mice and rats show that when the animals are restricted to 2/3 of what they would normally eat when allowed unlimited access to food that they live longer and the diseases associated with old age occur at a later age. If I had pet rats or mice, I would feed them diet 2014. It has a low level of protein compared to all other diets. Remember excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. Diet 2014 contains enough fat to meet the requirements for essential fatty acids but less fat than most other diets so the energy content is lower than most other diets as well. This diet was designed to be fed to mice and rats on long-term 2-year studies. Essentially the aims of the researcher feeding the diet to their research animals are closely aligned with the aims of the rat or mouse enthusiast. Avoid high calorie supplements such as nuts, chips and other junk foods which while tasty, encourage excessive weight gain. The mice and rats may still get fat on 2014 as they age. In general mammals given unlimited access to food increase their weight as they age. You can seek to restrict the diet if you wish or you can supplement their diet with high fiber foods such as fruits and vegetables. High fiber foods will fill their stomachs making them feel full but contributing little to their energy intake. However, make sure that in feeding these high fiber supplements that you do not displace the diet by more than 33%. The animal is relying on the diet to meet its nutrient requirements. The supplements are for enrichment and an attempt to reduce excessive weight gain. Also, place items in the cage which decrease boredom. If I put you in a room with nothing to do, but with food always available you are going to spend a great deal of time eating and drinking too.

In closing I just want to remind you of something that you already know. Mice and rats have a short life expectancy. By controlling body weight gain through energy restriction you are adding at best a few weeks or months on to their lives. But, the quality of their lives may vastly improve which I would say is what is truly important. Also, if you are breeding I would recommend 2018. Do not feed 2014 to breeding mice and rats. It is too low in protein and will lead to deficiency.

Sincerely,
Chuck Benton, Ph.D.
Nutritionist/Technical Services _


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Thanks, lilspaz, that's really useful.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Considering that all your rats are the same age, and are getting up there in age, and that they're related - and probably very closely related - it seems logical to me that they'd all be prone to the same sort of tumors. I doubt it's the HT, unless there's some other contributing factor.


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Aww, I'm sorry to hear about your rats. :/ I just had to have one of my lot put to sleep because of a tumor. *sigh* I hope that they are eligable for removal of their lumps at least?

And lilspaz68 - logically, it's hard to trust anything coming from a representative of a company, even a scientist. Who do you think signs his paychecks??? He isn't going to speak bad of them. If you ever want good scientific information, you should always look for a non-affiliated company that does the research.

Personally, I've never been a fan of lab blocks anyway. Surprisingly, despite the proclivity of mammary tumors in does, I've had to deal with very few, even in rescues of questionable genetic background.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Ahh but Icelore its still extremely unlikely these lab blocks caused tumours in her rats.
The letter was quoted for interest's sake, take what you will from it, but since they didn't even know about the pet industry using their diets I would think they aren't trying to impress us.


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*



lilspaz68 said:


> Ahh but Icelore its still extremely unlikely these lab blocks caused tumours in her rats.
> The letter was quoted for interest's sake, take what you will from it, but since they didn't even know about the pet industry using their diets I would think they aren't trying to impress us.


I didn't say anything about the blocks causing tumors. And Harlan does indeed know about consumer pet use of their products. Why do you think they shop to non-lab addresses? All manufacturers know where their product is going. Not to know would be foolhardy business practices.

I was just making the point that you can't trust a paid employee of a company to represent it in a truthful light, in any circumstance.


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

To me harlan is the best block out there. Most blocks contain too many phytoestrogens like alfalfa and soybean meal which you want to limit esp if they have mammary tumors. So I always go with the 2014. It's much easier using these with your mix then trying to figure out if they are getting all the right nutrients.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Sadly I cannot get any HT blocks here since I live in Canada. I buy the 50 lb bags of Mazuri 6F instead (16% protein, 6% fat).

There are all sorts of debates going on about lower protein diets reducing tumour incidence. liver failure when older, etc. I'll let you know once my older girls get to that age...I guess with all the rescues I have we had consider it a small test colony...LOL. then again I also have some spayed females as well as all neutered males. Is that considered cheating?


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

I wasn't even aware you couldn't get it there, but that mazuri is the next best thing though. I bought the 6f before, but my rats wouldn't touch it after eating harlan for some odd reason. I'm definitely tired of tumors though.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Are the rats all related? What are their ages? And are they males or females? Intact?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*



Night said:


> Are the rats all related? What are their ages? And are they males or females? Intact?


Not to speak for Rachel_Phantom, but I think I recall from her 'meet my rats' thread that they're Momma and kids from an oops litter, all 3 years old, mixed male and female (though I don't know who's got tumors), and the males are neutered, don't know about the femmes?

Has anyone else heard of something like this happening? I don't want to put my boys at risk of anything like that.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

I thought so. If they females aren't spayed, and those are the ones with tumors, I'd say it's just a coincidence and not at all from the food. Sounds like they all developed mammary tumors. Many, many people swear by HT blocks, and have never had any problems with them.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

If the rats are 3 years old and they have tumours, thats almost "normal", my perfectly healthy 3 year old boy developed an abdominal mass. It sure wasn't sudden in these rats case, since they are 3. The norm is masses at that age and even a lot younger.

If I had known the ages that would've made the HT component a moot fact.


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Esp if they are related I rescued a mom and her babies a couple years ago and 4 of the girls got tumors all in the same place so it's possible.


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## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Yes all my rats are over three years old. Yes, that is a contributing factor, but NO I don't think thats all that has caused the tumors. I have seven females, and one neutered male. Annie (the mom), Lady T, Junior, & Patches (male) have all had tumors prior to getting the HT lab blocks. All have been removed from them in about 7 different surgeries, some with multiple tumors. The four who have tumors now are: Cowbaby, Diamond, Dora, & Lady X, NONE of which have had tumors earlier in life before these new lab blocks. They are on a whole grain, natural diet of oats and other assorted grains which I mix myself. I think its a little more than coincidence. Considering the tumors are all in the same place on all four rats who have NEVER had tumors before, its not coincidence. Articles don't make a difference. I don't believe statistics, because according to them my rats should be dead cold since they are pet store/oops litter rats. You people can say what you want but that doesn't change the fact that I now have four babies on the down hill slope because of these tumors. Diamond is becoming paralyzed and its only a matter of time. These four beautiful girls have been in peak condition up to the point of these tumors. I'm choosing not to get these tumors operated on because of their age and I would hate to loose them instantly because of a simple procedure, rather than letting them live as long as possible with the tumor. Sorry if I don't feel quite so happy about this rat food.

Sorry if these seems harsh or rude to anyone. Put yourself in my situation, I don't think you'd be so happy with the tumors, plus people telling you whats wrong with your rats when they have no clue.


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

we're just offering alternatives, we're not saying it's not the food, we're just saying that we've never heard of it happening before. does not mean that it cannot happen. your rats have many other contributing factors, and you cannot say that you don't agree. saying that "we have no clue" is a little harsh - we've all lost animals before, we all know how awful it is to wake up one day and see your babies going downhill, we know where you are coming from, and as a collective group of rat enthusiasts, we have simply never heard of HT lab blocks causing tumors. in any case, we all feel for you, and no matter what caused the tumors, we will be there for you and your rats. in a case like this, what caused the tumors is not worth arguing about.


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## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Thank you OnlyOno. 

I ask all you others to not post back about the food or causing tumors for a while. This is really hard for me, and I'm just blowing off steam. Condolences are fine. But other than that, I'd really appreciate it if you kept opinions to yourself.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Although I understand that right now is a hard time for you, sharing your (bias) opinion and then not accepting opinions in return, especially in the way you put it, is rude.


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

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Yes we all know what your going through I have 3 girls with tumors right now and one that passed away from surgery a week ago. I lost a boy from cancer last month and another from cancer from a breeder. I think it all comes down to genetics and hormones honestly. I would be more than thankful for my rats to live that long I have only had a few live that long, you have some special rats there. Being that they were from a petstore though then most likely they were inbred and that makes them high risk for problems. Plus their age is a big factor of course, but I wouldn't put the blame on harlan. Esp since there's hardly any phytoestrogens in the 2014. Have you ever thought of trying some alternative medicine to try and prevent the tumors from growing?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

In general petstore rats have less of a chance at a healthy longer life but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
I took in 4 older petstore rats and they lived to 27 months, 32 months, 37 months, and 38 months. The last 2 boys ended up with masses and they were not related. I also have my last bought petstore rat at 27 months who is completely healthy.
I just lost a sweet girl who had a tumour removed at 15 months, it recurred at 22 months along with 2 others that popped up. Tumours, myco, PT (pituitary tumours), and pulmonary abscesses are just part of owning rats, sadly.
The only way to slow down a tumour is to get your girls spayed. I have 12 spayed right now, and besides a bit of a respiratory problem right now, healthy as horses. Rats are prone to tumours and things like long-term diet (too much protein, sugary foods that feed tumours) can affect things.

I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through but you have to think on a much broader scale about pet rats in general.

Good luck with your future decisions with your lumpy girls...its a terrible thing when to decide they have had enough rather than you not being able to stand it any longer.


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## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

First off, I never posted this for anyone's opinion. I posted it to let others know that feeding your rats new food can be risky. Also that some places can be shady about the food they give you. I only ask others to not give their opinions so I don't flare up at anyone. Its simply a personal request and I ask you to please respect that. 

Brussel sprouts, broccoli, red grapes and other vegetables can reduce tumors. I feed those to my rats as well. Whole grain diets have been proven to reduce tumors/cancer in not only people, but rats and small animals alike. 

I know a lot of people love/rave about HT lab blocks, but thats their opinion. I'm entitled to my own, and I personally do not like them. Plain and simple.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

If you do not wish any more opinions on the subject, perhaps you could request a moderator lock this thread for you? It seems a controversial subject and I doubt it will die easily. :?


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*



Rachel-Phantom said:


> First off, I never posted this for anyone's opinion. I posted it to let others know that feeding your rats new food can be risky. Also that some places can be shady about the food they give you. I only ask others to now give their opinions so I don't flare up at anyone. Its simply a personal request and I ask you to please respect that.
> 
> Brussel sprouts, broccoli, red grapes and other vegetables can reduce tumors. I feed those to my rats as well. Whole grain diets have been proven to reduce tumors/cancer in not only people, but rats and small animals alike.
> 
> I know a lot of people love/rave about HT lab blocks, but thats their opinion. I'm entitled to my own, and I personally do not like them. Plain and simple.


I have just one question - you mention Brussels Sprouts... are you feeding these cooked? Raw Brussels Sprouts are a big no no for rats...

Unfortunately, when you post in a forum with a topic like this, you are going to get peoples' opinions, whether you want them or not. These lab blocks are very popular with a lot of rat owners. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, including you, but if you wish for this topic to be locked, now, I can do so. Let me know.


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## Spider (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Most people don't realize it but there are only 2 food sources in Harlen Teklad 14%, 16%. Corn and wheat thats it, and a whole mess of vitamins and minerals and the 18% protein adds brewers yeast. Think about it just corn and wheat for food sources, thats why some Rats have longetivity on pellets, its food starvation with vitamins to keep them alive.
Look at the ingrediants carefully and tell me anyone couldn't come up with a better formula using Fresh Organic non-gluton grains and fresh veggies for nutrients,vitamins and minerals.
Spider


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## Lise (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Can you tell me that you could come up with a formula that is scientifically proven to have every single nutrient, vitamin and mineral in the quantity needed for a maximum rat lifespan?

I don't doubt that you could come up with a diet that includes them, but to actually get a homemade diet that has the precise amounts of everything needed would be extremely hard.... and no one is willing to pay the money for the nutritional analysis (expensive) of it as well.


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Could it be a allergic reaction maybe? I had 2 boys that were allergic to wheat and their skin would get nasty with sores and scabs.

There's a lot of research out there though done on rats that have helped reduce or stop them from growing. I few come to mind, garlic, turkey tail mushroom or other asian mushrooms, tumeric, flax oil, green tea etc. If you want more info let me know I have lots of articles on them. My rats get garlic & flax oil everyday and I give my girls turkey tail mushroom extract to try and slow these tumors down.

Lise is right on the money though it would be very hard to come up with a diet on your own that has the nutrients in it. I hear some people like to use regal rat instead of blocks, but I can't seem to find all the nutrients in this food.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Oxbow Regal Rat (some like this and some aren't fond of it at all)
Ingredients:
Whole Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Wheat Bran, Wheat, Soybean Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Soybean Hulls, Monocalcium Phosphate, Flax Seed Meal, (Linseed), Brewers Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Wheat Germ Meal, Methionine DL, Salt, Yeast Culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (topopherol), Vitamin C Supplement (Asorbic Acid), Colloidal Silica, Riboflavin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Pan


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## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

As it turns out, Dora's tumor wasn't a tumor at all.I had Cowbaby out and was examining get tumor and its really huge now so I'm thinking of getting the surgery so I took Dora out to see how large hers had gotten and there was no tumor, just a bloody hole. It ruptured today and I had no clue. I don't think the others' lumps are absences but I'm taking them to the vet tomorrow to get them looked at. Wish me luck.


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

oh please good luck! i'm so glad to hear about dora (although i'm sure it was gross and unpleasant for her and you)! luck with the rest of your babies.


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## RatMom (May 23, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

Abscesses are so yicky, it could be hematoma or a cyst too. Hopefully nothing serious good luck


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

If there was any fighting its very likely that there's abscesses. You will need to flush out that cavity twice a day at least. If a scab forms you will need to soften it, get it off so you can flush it again. Abscesses are gross and smelly, but much much better than tumours!!! Unless its a tooth abscess, those are nasty. 

An abscess is when the body finds a foreign body (undissolved stitch after a surgery) or a bacteria invades thru a cut (esp. from bites)). The body walls off the infection from the healthy part of itself. The abscess then gets bigger and bigger as pus/matter build up, until a dark mark forms, then the dark mark becomes a scab. This is where the abscess will burst. Your vet should clean it out and hopefully give you instructions on after-care. The abscess has to heal from the inside out, which can be tricky since rats are incredibly fast healers. If it scabs over and their is still muck inside the abscess will just keep reforming and bursting.

I use a saline solution for my flush and a medicating syringe.

For your other rats lumps he can do a needle aspiration to figur out whether they are tumours or more abscesses. Some families are more prone to abscesses then others.


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## Rachel-Phantom (Apr 18, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

The vet said Dora's lump might not have been an abscess, but a skin tumor. Sounds odd. He put her under and stitched up her wound though. Lady X had surgery and is doing fine. Cowbaby didn't have surgery even though she is the one that needs it most. She actually has an internal lump as well which is how Kodak passed. Theres no point in putting her through surgery when she only has so long to live. Shes acting fine and I just have to enjoy her while shes here. Diamond didn't have surgery either. Her hip degeneration is progressing and to put her through the surgery at her age is not too wise. Thanks for the support.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: Not so sure how I feel about these Harlan Teklad lab blo*

My Jay had an abcess before as well. The vet I go to says that they can ONLY assume that lumps are tumors and only testing can be sure of it. I had decided against the test for Jay, and delt with it myself with help from a good friend, Steph, found it was only an abcess. She walked we though it and it really did save me ALOT of money. Sometimes I do feel vets are just out for money, haha.


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