# Thanks For Nothing



## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Whoever told me it was acceptable and beneficial to get Ratty a cage mate lied to me. I bet you just wanted to see me and my rats suffer. I did everything the introduction guide told me to and watched my rats as close as possible, but Ratty ripped Lucky's skin from the top of his hip to the bottom of his hip... He isn't bleeding but I can't take him to the vet yet because none are open in my area... I mean why would you all suggest this? Was it supposed to work? I gave them baths for the scent and let them chill from that, I don't think I did anything wrong... I don't understand why Ratty is so aggressive but obviously getting him a cage mate has only made it worse. 

I have had so many negative rat experiences lately... I am so close to getting rid of Ratty. I hate him so much. 

Is there anything I can do for Lucky until I can get him to a vet?!?! :"""""""(


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## alexn (Sep 30, 2012)

I understand you're upset, but no one here would intentionally cause harm to your rats. All intros should be very carefully done, but occasionally something can go wrong.

As for the wound, try to keep it clean. Mix up some saline solution and bathe it regularly to keep infection away.

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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

No one here would ever harm your rats intentionally. It is beneficial for rats to be in pairs because they are pack animals. I am sorry that this happened to you and Lucky, sometimes things do go very very wrong. Separate them, do what Alexn said in his post above and clean the wound. If you can get ahold of some silver solution (its sold at CVS in the burn cream isle and is labeled silver gel) put a layer on the wound. This stuff is very good on wounds and it won't harm Lucky if he ingests it. It'll keep heat and infection out. If you have any loose bedding, like carefresh or aspen, either remove it or remove him from it . Put down towels as bedding so it minimizes the risk of anything sticking to his leg. As for Ratty, if you are looking to rehome him you can do so on the adoption forum on this site. If you live anywhere close to Waterford, MI I can see about taking him in and rehoming him for you. Again, I am so very sorry that this happened but don't blame this site, we would NEVER intentionally give you bad advice just to see you and your pets get hurt.


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## Andyurgay (Jun 10, 2013)

Its possible that ratty just does not like other rats or has been kept alone so long that he doesn't know how to interact with another. Or simply he didn't like the rat you introduced him too. Some rats get along with everyone and some only get along with a certain few. My old girl Valencia tried to kill the boys and the girl I introduced her too. The only rat she ever did or ever will get along with is her sister. are the two you have the same size/age? Are their personalities hugely different? Intros between my three guys went fine, just popped them together and boom, instant friendship. But I got lucky I guess, my loves are love bugs. Has Ratty shown aggression towards you ever before?


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm sorry, I just have major depression and anxiety and this is so not helping me at all... Panic attacks are not fun either. Okay, I'll do what I can in the four hours I have to wait before I can go to the vet.

To me personally he hasn't shown (much) agression but he just killed my mouse (don't want to go there)... No they are different in size and age because I heard getting a young boy would make the chances better... Ratty is big and fat but Lucky is small and agile. They have different personalities... He's just been alone too long I guess and I'm certainly never trying again. 

I don't know, I just don't know if I can get over all the bad things he's done... Before all this happened he was my best friend and now I can't even stand to look at him...


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Rats will kill things smaller than them, like mice and birds, I'm sorry he killed the mouse but he was just doing what came natural to him. It is usually best to get a younger boy but one closer to his size so accidents like this don't happen. I'm sorry that wasn't mentioned, but there's nothing we can do about that now.


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Yeah :/


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## Kuraudia (Jan 15, 2014)

RedResilience said:


> I have had so many negative rat experiences lately... I am so close to getting rid of Ratty. I hate him so much.


I know exactly how you feel. This happened to me when I lost so many babies. Out of the thirteen Matilda had, only four survived. Also, when this was happening, Bianca was being extremely aggressive (and not only to me), Matilda would not let me touch her and my cat was being an arsehole.
I hated Bianca, too. I could not understand how she could possibly bite me so much (and painfully, too), and why Matilda was so mean to me.
Turns out they where just really frightened of me, and guess what? Bianca has improved immensely, she hasn't bitten me in ages (I still wear gloves handling her, as I'm not yet 100% comfortable with her), Matilda lets me stroke her when she's on the hammock and it seems they're both less scared of me. The babies that are left are growing up and are beautiful. I've even given one away to someone who's really taking care of them.
What I'm trying to tell you is, don't give up on Ratty  You said he was your best friend, maybe you can forgive him, and move on?
I forgave my cat even after he killed two babies (they escaped from the cage and I wasn't able to do anything for them).
Even if you've had so many bad experiences doesn't mean the next ones are going to be bad as well.
Good luck


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I agree with the above post. Ratty still loves you, and there may be a chance that him and Lucky can be friends later on down the road once Lucky grows a bit bigger. Don't give up on them yet, they may surprise you.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Some rats just do better living alone. If a rat is "highly aggressive" towards other rats, then they're probably better off living as a "lone rat". 

My female rat, Belle, is a lone rat. She killed both her sisters and seriously injured 2 other adult rats. Belle has "never" shown aggression towards humans. Belle is better off as a lone rat. 

Perhaps your rat, Ratty, is one that's meant to be a lone rat as well. Contrary to popular belief....... Not all rats "want/require" a cagemate.


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## JoshDeMott2010 (Aug 25, 2007)

Sorry if i sounded rude with my comment earlier. Here is what i meant, Rats feed off of the personalities they encounter. If you are sad and depressed or anxious the rats will understand that and may actually mimic your behavior or develop there own behavior that is negative. Positive people that are generally happy are the best pet owners due to the secure feelings provided to the animal allowing them to be secure and feel safe. The feelings of depression, anxiety, stress, and insecurity will cause a rat to be aggressive due to fear. It's not your rats fault so don't punish the rats. You are the responsible owner take care of them and rehome them then move on with your life man.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, so if I added to the problem, I'm sorry... There's no one size fits all advise, and what works 99.99% of the time doesn't work that other .01% of the time or worse yet ends horribly.

Even immersion has two flavors, one for normal rats and one for really screwed up ones.

As to only rats, we raised two... our part wild girl and Fuzzy Rat and we eventually housed them together and that got ugly before it got better. I've always maintained that only rat can be done, but it requires the human to be there very much full time.... I'm talking 24X7. 

I usually work at home and my daughter had summer vacation so it was possible to have our rats with us all of the time... Even now our rats spend more time with us than with each other. But I can leave them at home together and not have to worry about them feeling alone when I go shopping. 

Did any of you wonder how we started training true shoulder rats? It's because we only had Fuzzy Rat and didn't want to leave her alone.... So we shopped at rat friendly stores, and ate at rat friendly restaurants and went to rat friendly beaches and parks and every time we went outside or traveled we had to plan around where our rat could go. And we had to accommodate a rat and a rat phobic in the same car for family outings... 

OK, so Fuzzy Rat having only human friends became more human like than rat like and learned to communicate with us and she became a truly amazing rat and frankly she was very happy and well adjusted, but at the cost of us changing our entire lifestyle to accommodate her and most people just can't take their rat to work or school. 

So while I can say without reservation that you can raise an only rat, even I, who've done it don't recommend it...

Now, immersion theory addresses rat introductions differently than most people do...

In immersion there can be only one alpha... and that's a human leader or parent. Before you introduce your rats to each other each rat has to bond with you first. This way you assimilate rats into your pack. Rats are not likely to fight to the death over who is going to play second fiddle and you can set the social rules in your home...

So, for the most part we have fixed problems with a rats human relationships first and then the humans could fix the issues between the rats. When you put a rat that isn't bonded to you in with rats that are, one rat very well might fight for the alpha status the other rats have already granted to you. So when your friendly rat tries to be friendly with you he will be attacked by the rat that thinks he is the leader. This is not jealousy!!! Simply put it's disrespect. Your bonded rats are disrespecting the rat that feels he should be the leader.

Think about it, you have seen it with children... the girl that thinks she's the leader gets really upset when she sees her friends playing with another kid and acts out... 

So there are plenty of voodoo magic tricks that entertain us, but do very little for rats... We coat the rats in vanilla extract, or scrub them or do intros in bath tubs with water, or set cages side by side for weeks and those make us feel better about what we are about to go through.... Seriously, do you think your rats are really that stupid to be fooled? I mean if your parents brought a new kid home and dressed them in your old clothes would you really believe she was your sister you never noticed at breakfast before? And when I've put cages side by side the rats got more and more hostile because they saw a potential enemy that wouldn't introduce itself properly. But oddly enough the two weeks while the rats are kept apart does give the humans an opportunity to bond with the new rat and that does help with intros. So it might be doing the right thing for the wrong reason as long as the humans are hands on with the new rat and have a good relationship with their old ones.

So before you move ahead with intros, you really have to make sure both rats are firmly bonded to you and you are everyone's alpha, read as parent and leader. Once you get there, you sit down between the rats and manage the intros hands on, making sure to control the action so no one gets aggressive. I've been there, whispering, skritching, shouting, swatting rats apart scooping and bopping until the rats understand that I want them to be a family and I'm in charge. This can get ugly, but if your rats love and respect you, you "usually" won't get bitten. I stress usually.

That said, I've had intros go wrong. I tried to do one outside at our safe site and Max the younger rat pounced on our older rat and bit her before scurrying back up the tree and the final introduction jumped over me and ran off and took place under a photocopier while I watched helplessly from in front of the machine... But it worked out anyway as there wasn't enough room for the rats to stand up or really attack each other under the copier... They pretty much tired each other out and came out as friends about an hour later. But Amelia was with us for about 7 months by that time and Max was a hand raised pup from 2 weeks old, and they both belonged to our pack. Max is a real brat and she likes to get her way but overall she knows the humans are in charge, so there is no reason to fight for a status she isn't going to have and the same goes for Amelia.

So... introductions do go wrong, rats do get bitten even when you do everything pretty much right and your best laid plans are at the mercy of fast, agile and smart rats.

The only introduction that ever went easy was when Fuzzy Rat met and chose Amelia to be her friend before we brought her home... They were pals in 15 minutes. With Fuzzy Rat and our part wild girl, I wound up with hundreds of pinprick nips on my hands as I did the introduction on my belly in an easy chair because my part wild rat was so dangerous. 

Intros can get hairy, but with proper human bonds in place, and careful supervision, for the most part they work. And they work because rats really do want to be in a family and have friends...

I haven't read all of the advise you have been given, nor know what you took from it, that said, admit some intros get messier than others...

But when Fuzzy Rat got old and sick, Amelia preened her and snuggled with her almost day and night and kept her warm and kept her company when we couldn't always be there for her as Fuzzy Rat couldn't travel with us as much any more. She challenged her for food and kept her active and more alert. Amelia was never a true shoulder rat, she was actually more of Fuzzy Rat's pet rat, and Fuzzy Rat was raised as an only rat that always loved humans more than rats, but I have no doubt that in those last few months Amelia was an invaluable friend and source of comfort to Fuzzy Rat that actually helped keep her alive.

So, I don't know if you went wrong, or what went wrong, but the theory of your rats needing friends is a good one. I've had great introductions and hairy ones, there's no cook book solution. If you pull it off without getting one rat or the other killed, it's really great for both your rats. I'd stop, take a deep breath and really think through what went wrong before you try it again. I didn't see Amelia sneaking up on Max as a pup and biting her, then Max pouncing on Amelia from a tree branch to get revenge coming, nor did I see them bolting off under the copier to take their conflict private. Both rats got a nasty bite, and I screwed up but now they are friends... So even ugly intros can work out...

As no one can predict the future, there are no guarantees and you are there and you have to make the hard decisions and call the plays... Keep in mind some highly skilled military men with a superior battle plan told the Japanese Emperor that Japan was going to win WW II and see how that worked out. I'm not saying you should give up or you should try again, just don't try to do the same thing the same way again... Assuming the theory is good, consider how to improve the technique for better results... not everything works on the first try.

Best luck.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I didn't know you'd go through intros. I saw where he killed your mouse. I'm surprised no one has brought it up; that "invader" or opportunity to be a "predator" causes a surge in hormones meant to allow rats to stay alive in the wild. It's like approaching a hockey player whose just been benched for fighting to tell him you like his purse...it isn't going to end well, and not necessarily because of your comment. He's all hopped up and ready to go but with nothing to go for. 


As to feeling a bit like he's the enemy for him killing, I'm sorry. My mothers dog took down two parakeets, one with a gimp I was rehabilitating and one who was my favorite. It's devastating. I couldn't stand to be around her. But as rough as it is to say, that was her natural instinct as a terrier and his as a rat. We are supposed to try and protect the animal and others from those natural instincts and mistakes happen. You've gotta move on and forgive yourself and your rat, mourn your mouse properly and try to build a relationship. 

I know how it can be. I've depression and anxiety; it is so very easy to get discouraged or lose control and so very hard to be "normal". I don't think this disqualifies us from owning any pets (if it does, I'd be long since dead and you might as well hand me the noose than make me go on alone). It does mean that we have to work with our emotions so as not to negatively impact our pets. And again. This is coming from a manic-depressive that had to reform a blind and biting rat. 

Trust me. There are good points. But before you can run, you've gotta walk. Build a relationship and then you can feel the benefits.


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## LeStan82 (Dec 31, 2013)

I am sorry for your loss of your mouse and now injury to your new rat. But Ratty is a rat, he is still an animal and behaves like one.although our pets are domesticated, you can not remove their natural animal instincts.. You shouldn't get mad at him for that. Some introductions go well and some dont. Depends on your rats personality and no two animals are alike.. No way to tell the out come of intros with rats until you do it. Most rats enjoy company of other rats and some dont. Should Always consider the possibility of the out come being bad and have a plan on what you are going to do if it does not work out before you choose a new cage mate. Sorry things didnt work out


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Long story short, the vet I was REFERRED TO (that is also 40 minutes away) doesn't see rats. But they did have a quick look at him after I bawled my eyes out in the waiting room and they said he was stable. It sounded like they said it would heal on its own. Lucky doesn't seem bothered by it, he moves around and drinks and eats and has clear eyes. I'm going to take him to my local vet tomorrow since they're open. I am willing to pay sixty bucks for Lucky's sake and peace of mind even if it is nothing. 

Thanks Kuraudia. I'm sorry that must have been terrible.  I think I could forgive him... After all I've rescued him from a life of mite infested boredom at PetSmart, taken him to the vet four times for mite treatments, bought him a giant cage with toys and everything, and let him free run and chew on my furniture... He's been through it too. He made life seem a little less bleak. That doesn't mean I don't hate him at the moment, but hopefully it gets better.

Daize, I totally agree. I'm not going to put Ratty with another rat. He's fine by himself. I'm just worried about Lucky, now he needs a buddy and I'm terrified of putting another with him and that requires a bigger cage... Ugh.


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Oops there's another page hold on. ><


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

I mean yes he's a wild animal and everything, but I have a right to be upset for not even a day yet... Wouldn't any normal person, depressed or not, be upset if there was a giant hole in your rat's side and you could see his muscles and insides? I mean no good deed goes unpunished... I just wanted to save Ratty from being covered in mites and being bored and save Lucky from being covered in poop and being eaten... I just wanted them to be happy and be friends and it wasn't like I was stupid about it. I've put so much time and research into these guys and I've nearly broken the bank trying to provide everything I can for them. Maybe I'm not a rat whisperer like Rat Daddy. Please kill me for that. All I wanted was to help save some poor animals that society has deemed unlovable or simply livestock but that must not be a worthy cause anymore. I can only do what I can do and maybe I made a few mistakes, but I've tried so hard. Lucky would be digested and Ratty would still be at the pet store flipping over his food dish and eating high protein mouse food. I'd like to think I've done everything I can to give them a better life. I thought I did have a good relationship with my rats... I played with them every day and Ratty would play with me, I finally got him to stop being quite so sassy. And Lucky let me just pet him for two hours... If someone would have told me that taking care of rats was so hard maybe I wouldn't have gotten them. Maybe someone should take all of my pets away and be done with it, then I can't hurt another living creature accidentally. Maybe being food was a better option. I should've just left them there like the rest of society. I'm sorry for trying to care because I actually care about every freaking little creature on this Earth.


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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

Red, repeat after me...."I did nothing wrong". Rats are complex little creatures, but they are so worth it. You did the right thing by taking Lucky to the vet and it sounds like he will be fine. As for saving every creature, I am right there with you. Then I have to remind myself that I cannot save everything and everyone, that is just too much stress to put onto one person. It breaks my heart and makes me want to cry, and sometimes I do cry....but then I make a difference where I can. And right now it seems you can make a difference with Ratty and Lucky. You may not be able to change the world, but for those two rats you are the world. Never lose sight of that.


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## ElleBelinski (Mar 8, 2014)

From your posts you obviously still really care about ratty. It's going to be hard but you have to just push through. At the end of the day ratty still needs you. Just think where he would be now of it wasn't for you ? That means something. The fact you've cared for him. He needs you now more than ever 💗🐀💗🐀


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Lets review... a couple nights ago we took Max to the park for the first time this year. Max stepped into a drainage ditch and got wet... My daughter started jumping up and down screaming at Max for getting wet and dirty and Max splashed though the ditch and ran off into the darkness... while my daughter was turned around yelling at me about what a dumb arse our rat was... I was about 100 feet away, up the embankment in the parking lot as I see Max ford the drainage ditch and bolt off behind my daughter's back.

Can anybody else see just how many ways this could go wrong or is it just me? I'm pretty sure this counts as potentially lethal a screw up. Out doors, at night, with some snow still on the ground...

Now, Max is a true shoulder rat, she just picked up on her scent trail and waited for us by the public bathroom she considers her safe place at the park. Figuring by the time we got there my daughter would have calmed down and she was pretty much right. Now by the time I got to the out building, I took the bridge across, my daughter handed me a cold and soggy rat that dove right under my down coat to warm up... I'm thinking I'm going to have to have the coat dry cleaned now... Still, if it were any other rat, that night would have ended really badly.

We all screw up... and when we don't screw up things still go wrong... I'm going to have a talk with my daughter about NOT chasing her rat off into the darkness and hopefully it won't happen again and you are going to hopefully find a way of introducing your rats so they don't hurt each other too much... or not.. whatever you decide... 

We all learn by our mistakes, no matter how much research you do things will go wrong... My daughter has been handling shoulder rats since she was 5 and should have known better, but for a momentary lapse of reason could have chased her away, forever... 

All in all, I feel even more confident in Max's outdoor abilities, she's still not Fuzzy Rat, but she's *darn good*. And you've no doubt learned something about doing rat intros too...

Everyone survived, we chalk it up to learning and be happy about how things didn't go worse. 
Keep one thing in mind rats are risk takers, in nature sometimes things go terribly wrong too. Rats screw up and they die, sometimes they even kill each other, we can't always predict what will happen or protect them from themselves or from everything that's going to go wrong. We manage the risks as best as we can and that's all we can do. That's not to say you should stop trying to improve your rat handling skills.... just not take it too personal when things go wrong. 

So just take the happy endings when you get them and don't sweat the potholes along the way. You do the best you can and whatever happens... happens. And yes, sometimes good deeds go terribly wrong, but that doesn't mean you stop doing them.

Best luck.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I hope everything is going okay for lucky ... I hope he hasn't come away too scared. Yes, perhaps Ratty is better off as a lone rat...
It's totally normal to panic about this- i would flip if that happened!!! 

The reason why someone suggested you get him a friend, is that 99% of the time , they need friends to keep them happy and healthy. 

Some rats are weird, but you can love them anyways.... Rats have incredibly distinct personalities. 

Look, you said you have an anxiety problem , right? Well, ratty also is unique. It's okay if you have to re home him - just warn them that he has been very aggressive to other rats. 

Enjoy luckys company .. take care of the little guy , and whether you decide to keep them apart and keep both guys, or you re-home ratty, everything will be okay  


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## ratswithfoxandbear (Feb 12, 2014)

I just had an awful introduction, too. It led in exactly what you described (except on my girl's hood instead of the hip). Introductions sometimes take a few times. I searched RatForum for the term "gash" when I was trying to figure out what to do for my girl. The fact that there were a few pages of "gash" topics showed me that introductions do not always work. Instead, sometimes they go horribly wrong, and you need to start at the beginning. I also have experienced utter distaste towards a girl... so much so that one girl has a vet visit in three days then will most likely be returned to the breeder. I want to do everything possible for her, but we do not get along. It is sad, but I know the breeder will find her an amazing home. She's great and has said that my girl can be brought back without judgment. I don't know if that last bit is true, but I know she is a good breeder for caring about the girly enough to bring her home.

I also have severe anxiety. I've cried the last three days over my stress with the rat pack. However, I also know I am their human and in the rare moment of clarity, I take a single step forward. I obsessively make lists which helps because crossing things off those lists is glorious. Taking care of my babes got a list this past weekend because I was very angry at my one nugget for being vicious (when she had never ever been vicious before).

I wish you and your pat the best of luck. It is not always easy. Hopefully by now you've been able to see a vet or get neosporin/ some sort of medicine for the babe!


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks everyone... I've just been so stressed with work and my family and my friends, basically a bunch of people being mega jerks, and some other unfortunate happenings, that sometimes I just can't take it and I break. I take everything as an attack. I think I've learned that behavior from being emotionally abused but that'sa different story so never mind that. Sorry. ><

I've done a lot of thinking and I forgive Ratty. I probably pushed them into something that didn't work and I didn't pick up the signs. Introducing my mice was so easy and everyone said it was not too hard so I assumed it would all go well after a few squabbles. But it didn't. It's okay, though, because Lucky is healing up well and he goes to the vet tomorrow to get checked on and possibly get antibiotics. He doesn't seem phased by the incident. Ratty still loves me, I can tell he really does, and I could never abandon him... I just needed to cool off. But yes it has caused me a lot of anxiety, and a lot of tears. Thankfully I can't see Lucky's muscles and insides anymore. ><

I think I'm going to let this incident pass, save up for a bigger cage with smaller bar spacing, and then get a friend for Lucky. I definitely need to wait and finish creating a list for my rats and my other pets, like ratswithfoxandbear. I'll give them all lots of attention, even more, and hopefully it will all work out. I've just been overwhelmed as it is without that happening. Thank God it wasn't worse though.

Thanks everyone, I needed the support.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm glad to hear that Lucky is ok and that you're keeping Ratty and that he's forgiven. I look forward to new threads by you, be it just a question or updates on your mischief. Good luck with your boys! And don't hesitate to ask for advice


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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

I am so happy that you are able to see this clearer now  hang in there and keep us posted!


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Lucky is doing well, he was prescribed cream for his wound, antibiotics, and Activia. XD I think the whole thing has brought me closer to Lucky and Lucky seems to be more comfortable with me now. He hated his meds at first but now he won't put up as much of a fight. >< He loves his yogurt though hahaha. 

I think once this fiasco calms down a bit more I will search for a friend for Lucky. Until then Ratty seems more than happy that I am his only friend. He bruxes like crazy and scampers around, he couldn't do much more to show me his happiness I think.


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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

This makes me so happy!!!!!


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## NocturnalNerd (Mar 14, 2014)

This is admittedly one of my fears about getting a second rat, but blaming people on this forum was not the way to go. Any amount of research would have told you the same. How long has Ratty been without a companion?


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

Presumably his whole life. 99% of rat information out there says that rats need friends. How am I suppose to believe or even find the one percent? I started this topic to get help, not to be judged.


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

Glad to see things are going well. Sometimes it's really hard with males as you've found out. Some of them have to be solitary. We really just give the advice for rats to have friends until a poor rat like Lucky gets attacked. It sucks that you have to have the short straw, many males will get along with others (as long as introduced when one of them is young)  Glad Lucky is healing and Ratty is good by himself.


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## ratswithfoxandbear (Feb 12, 2014)

RedResilience said:


> Presumably his whole life. 99% of rat information out there says that rats need friends. How am I suppose to believe or even find the one percent? I started this topic to get help, not to be judged.


You also judged everybody in the thread and damned the help you received which is the help anyone would receive from rat owners. You explained why that happened, but people reacted to your harsh negativity back with harsh negativity.

NocturnalNerd- It is a scary situation. I introduced a pair with a pair. Introductions went fine. It took me a few weeks because I followed the slow process. A few weeks ago I attempted to bring one more girl into my pack, and it was a fiasco. I was miserable and remember being so overwhelmed by the thought that rats could be so mean. I also have to admit I did not follow the introduction process with as much gusto as before. I thought "The first one went fine, it'll be fine." Sure enough, I was an idiot. I know hearing a horror story can be scary, but I also watch at the people with 16 rats all of whom live together. So that is 16 rats that at some point that been introduced together, and everyone is fine. Rats prefer company the large majority of the time, and there is very little that can give you a hint that your babe is part of that small percentage that are loners. Even aggressive rats sometimes become less aggressive and hyper when they have a friend, you know? It's pretty interesting to learn about rat-psychology.

Perhaps people in this forum have seen enough ratties that there is a pattern. Unfortunately, though, the breeder I went to had one aggressive rat that became a lone-rat at the age of 2. I mean, seriously, even a rat that is fine for most of his life may become a grump when older. It's all about taking time, trying, having patience or sometimes having luck. The woman I am getting a new babe from told me every time she has gotten a new pair, she just tosses them in the cage with her older pairs. Never once has she had a problem! How incredible is that? I was jealous hearing that story, of course. Also, establishing Alpha status and introducing a new rat after being the alpha helps and feeds into Rat Psychology. "The alpha accepted this one. I need to accept this one."


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## RedResilience (Feb 4, 2014)

I just felt betrayed. I had put my trust in this forum and then it was like "Oops we forgot to mention this" AFTER Lucky was torn open... Not to mention I got no help with my other posting on introductions. Not one response. I don't want to fight. I just feel like the world has already judged me enough... :'(

Yes, rats can be surprisingly mean... It's crazy... But they are very loving too. Rats are weird.


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## Simons mum (Dec 19, 2013)

Each rat is an individual. How were you to know that Ratty would do that? How was anyone to really know? Heck, my girl's squabble all the time and I though they never tore eachother apart, it was something that could have happened. Luckily enough, it didn't. Now you've got it worked out, and have two lovely rats that love you dearly. Ratty has you, and lucky will have his buddy eventually. Can't ask for more than that.


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## MeinTora (Mar 19, 2014)

I doubt people suggested that knowing that Ratty was aggressive. 


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## ratswithfoxandbear (Feb 12, 2014)

RedResilience said:


> I just felt betrayed. I had put my trust in this forum and then it was like "Oops we forgot to mention this" AFTER Lucky was torn open... Not to mention I got no help with my other posting on introductions. Not one response. I don't want to fight. I just feel like the world has already judged me enough... :'(
> 
> Yes, rats can be surprisingly mean... It's crazy... But they are very loving too. Rats are weird.


I am not interested in a fight either as there is nothing to argue or fight about. We both came to this forum for help, and unfortunately, it seems slighted. When I made the mistake of introducing on my rats too early-- and there was a huge gash on my baby girl-- the forum helped me handle it. I don't blame the forum for my rat that attacked the other one. The internet did not decide, "Let's throw this one for the loop and give her the elusive Shiny Aggressive Rat Beast." Furthermore, I do not blame the information bearers. I blame myself for not having read more and been more ready in case of an emergency. 

In my case, I had one good introduction. I falsely assumed I would have another, so I did not come with my precautions (gloves to break up a bloody fight). I cried after... it was so ridiculous. I told my girl that got attacked how foolish I was and asked her forgiveness. (Yes, I was asking a non-speaking being for forgiveness.) I felt AWFUL. I can imagine how you felt because I was at a TOTAL loss. Heck, I did not even have neosporin in my house... so a trip to the corner store stood in the way of me treating the fluff ball.

Introductions going poorly and rats needing care do not deserve a harsh judgment sentence. If it did, people would not post here all the time about scrapes, bumps, bruises and bites. The forum is filled with information and posts about rats being suddenly a tad mean. They are resilient creatures that can usually get through a squabble. **graphic sentence ahead: My girl that took a nasty bite and had a 2 cm gash with exposed muscle was fine within five days.

I am also still learning. People on this forum are jumping onto posts I write to give me more information because they see a mistake. It's amazing because I need to know. I am still new, you know? I've only owned rats since January. I am no expert! I personally think it is difficult to go too far into this forum without seeing something about "My introductions went wrong," "My rat has a scratch."

I sincerely hope that things get better for you and your babes. It was a scary experience that you can learn from as you move forward. There is a lot on this forum about Immersion Training and Aggressive Rats (that are aggressive to other rats). Rat Daddy is amazing when it comes to advice regarding rat behavior and taming. There are wonderful trainers here. There are also people that have rats that live on their lonesome. Many of those people had their rats start in a pack and something happened. It was probably surprising but not the owner's fault. When you have an animal that is so incredibly unique and can go so many ways in terms of personality, you need to learn over time! It's pretty neat, honestly. Rats are weird, but they are really wonderful.


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## Andyurgay (Jun 10, 2013)

Ratswithfoxandbear: I dont mean to jack this thread, but I have to commend you for being so honest with yourself, other people and rats.



Everyone makes mistakes. I know I made my fair share of them and was completely clueless when I took my first rats in. Half the time i felt stupid as h***asking the questions I had. But its all a learning experience. Sometimes things happen and you need support and help and thankfully this is a HUGE forum so you are rarely at a loss of responded and advice. often if you do not get a response it is because you posted it at a time when most of the forum is asleep and it is not caught. Or the title was misleading or has few details. Titles like "help!" or "introduction trouble" dont tell people how urgent the situation is so a bit of a more descriptive post title could help. Also, if you feel your post really needs it, you could "bump" it. Simply type "bump" as a comment to your own post and it will come to the top of the forum. This should only be used in cases of extreme need to know or a topic you feel is extremely important and you got no replies. Also, make sure you are posting in the appropriate spot for your question or comment. If you think it could be a health problem, post in rat health, not general. Same with behavior.ect.


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## NocturnalNerd (Mar 14, 2014)

@ratswithfoxandbear: Truthfully I'm scared something will happen to Huckleberry. He is by no means aggressive, and is very devoted to me. He really didn't seem to care for his cage mate (who I think came from the same litter).


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## ratswithfoxandbear (Feb 12, 2014)

NocturnalNerd said:


> @ratswithfoxandbear: Truthfully I'm scared something will happen to Huckleberry. He is by no means aggressive, and is very devoted to me. He really didn't seem to care for his cage mate (who I think came from the same litter).


Once in awhile you meet a rat that wants to be alone. I'd watch his behavior closely, though. So much of the research points to having a cage-mate or cage-mates. There are people far more intelligent and versed in rat ownership-- particularly male rat ownership-- that could probably help you come to a decision. I'd ask the forum if you are seriously considering getting a second rat. It is smart to be cautious, of course!


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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

I am just glad hackles are down and everyone is able to talk this out. It's hard when emotions are running high and one of your ratties is hurt. I am very impressed with the maturity shown by everyone to be honest, you don't see that on a lot of forums.


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