# Quarentine is inpossible, can I never have more rats?



## MudBug (Apr 9, 2016)

So I took a look at the info threads for acquiring more rats (because somehow I already have GGMR syndrome), and saw that it says quarentine requires an entirely separate location, such as a friend's house.For me, this is simply impossible.

There's no one in my inner circle who would keep them, even temporarily (a matter of rat phobia). So, what does this mean for me? Would I be risking ratty lives to keep them in a separate room seeing as that's my only option? I wouldn't think outdoors is an option either (I live in Louisiana, it gets HOT).

Any advice, or has anyone else found themselves in this situation and what did they do?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would get the rats from a good breeder, NO pet store rats- the risk is just too high for them to be sick. Getting your rats from a reputable breeder doesn't guarantee that your new rats aren't sick but it GREATLY reduce the possibility that they are.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

If separate airflow is impossible. 

I suggest knowing & understanding the risks and doing the best you can.

Getting rats from a breeder is a good start- ask them about their quarantine practices and if they have had any new rats recently.

If you get a rat check them over before bringing them home- simple health check & for any noticeable signs or symptoms. While that will not rule everything out it is a good start.
http://ratguide.com/health/basics/basic_health_check.php
http://ratguide.com/health/basics/advanced_health_check.php

Keep them in a room as far away as possible from your own rats. 
Some feel it helps to keep them in a tank or bin cage temporarily during quarantine to prevent as much exposure, I am not saying it does or doesn't help.
Always wash your hands inbetween handling (and letting time pass and even perhaps changing clothes.) 
Never use the same items inbetween rooms. 
Treating new rats with revolution can be a good idea as well.

If you see any symptoms getting them to a vet right away can make all the difference.


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## MudBug (Apr 9, 2016)

Thank you. Though it would only be across the hall, where they would likely be kept separate is a very small room (about 6x6? Incredibly small) and perhaps that small space paired with one (or more) high quality air filters could help? Essentially recycling the small amount of air in the room?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, there's been a few virus issues that spread among breeders that buy and or sell breeding stock to and from each other and from breeders that show their rats. Rats from major rat mills are actually pretty safe as these kinds of mills make their living from rats and don't usually risk their huge populations by taking in rats from the outside. Pet shops that breed their own rats are also pretty safe, but if shops take in rats from customers or use multiple suppliers, there are certain risks that go up....

Long story short, you are really never 100% safe no matter where you get your rats. 

The statistical risks actually depend on how many rats you adopt.. if 1% of rats are sick in your area, the odds are very much in your favor when you adopt your first rat, but if you adopt 200 rats from all different places, you are pretty much sure of getting a sick one that will wipe you out or get all of your rats sick.... 

Inquire as best as you can and perhaps try to get your rats from the same place you got your other ones from, if they haven't changed their supplier. 

This isn't advise against quarantine, but an idea of how necessary it might be to you...


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

I used to have my "quarantine" set up in a separate room with a high-quality air filter (which has since then broke.) Never had much of an issue. I also, however, get mine from decent small breeders that don't take in unknown animals, and ultimately I only had to do three quarantines.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rats from rat mills have a high incidence of URIs, bad genetic, aggressive behavior, early onset of degenerative illnesses. They are bred over and over and over again with no attention to temperament or health. Sure they don't often get new rats in their lines, but it isn't because of potential diseases- it is because they simply don't care to produce healthy, genetically strong rats, not a good thing at all. Those are the rats you will find in well know pet stores like Petsmart and Petco but also in other pet stores. Those are NOT the rats that will make the best pets, they will cost you much more in vet costs and heartaches. Sure there are exceptions where the rat turns out ok and with no major health issues, but certainly not a good reason to risk it. You definitely put your current rats at a much higher risk of infectious diseases and potential death by buying your rats from a petstore compared to getting them from a reputable breeder.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The question was regarding quarantine. And we have pretty much agreed that mills and stores that don't take in rats from doubtful sources are perhaps more likely to have rats that don't carry communicable diseases than breeders that are introducing new stock to their lines. 

I'm also not certain from the OP's post that the original rats are from a reputable hobby breeder... so by the same reasoning, why should the OP care about the pet shop or commercially bred rats they already have or endanger breeder rats by exposing them to the current rats? I can't imagine that's what you are suggesting... And I definitely can't go along with that reasoning, if that's the case, or if that's what you are suggesting.

While there are certain benefits to certain strains of rats over others, the fact remains that the vast majority of rats in the US fancy come from mills and or pet shops... The percentage of rats coming from hobby breeders, with provably superior strains is pretty much insignificant. Therefore, according to you, we should assume that most if not almost all of the rats in the US fancy should be genetically defective, aggressive, have URI's and early onset degenerative illnesses.... which is patently false. 95 to 99% of the rats in this fancy are not junk rats and I can't imagine why anyone would suggest that they are.

There is also no reason to believe that the people that make their living breathing rats in volume don't care about the rats they breed. In fact, there is every reason to believe that someone that does something for a living is more likely to be knowledgeable and experienced at doing something than someone else who does it as a hobby. I would be a lot more concerned about contagious illnesses if my entire inventory and livelihood could be jeopardized by introducing a single new rat to my rattery. Of course, hobby breeders would have similar concerns, but they have to weigh the risks and benefits of introducing contagious illnesses with desirable genes. I can almost see where hobby breeder would be willing to take more risks than a commercial breeder.

Commercial breeders and hobby breeders might have different priorities. Rat breeders that sell primarily snake food may be more concerned with breeding rats that grow fast and get large. They would be less concerned with illnesses that their rats might develop towards the end of their natural lifespan. Dwarf rats don't tend to get mammary tumors. The rats we adopted, that were bred at a commercial rat mill grew fast, got large and developed mammary tumors towards the end of their lives. I am currently working with a strain developed by a local breeder that tends to stay small. So far, we haven't seen any mammary tumors and the breeder tells me he hasn't either. To be honest, I don't know if my breeder was actually working to produce healthier rats or if he was working to create a strain that grew slowly and stayed small and just got lucky. In any event, I'll take the win. As to temperament, I don't believe that anyone intentionally breeds aggressive rats. There is no benefit to rat mill owners in selling rats that bite their customers, or in getting bitten themselves, or having their employees bitten. It is to everyone's benefit to weed out sick and aggressive rats from their lines. And just because, our breeder hasn't had a problem with mammary tumors and we haven't seen any, doesn't mean some of the rats from this strain won't develop them or even get sick... diet and care is important to raising healthy rats and if the barrel is big enough, there's going to be a bad apple in it somewhere.

Personally, I am currently enjoying working with rats that don't tend to get mammary tumors, don't ever seem to get sick, don't bite and have nice personalities. As a matter of fact, I have a few pups from this strain currently up for adoption. On the other hand, our feeder bin rats also had great personalities and didn't bite and they also never got sick until they developed mammary tumors towards the end of their lives.

There is a big difference in suggesting that certain strains of hobby bred rats might be superior to other strains and suggesting that 99% of the rats in this fancy and represented on this forum are junk. There are plenty of cases where rats from hobby breeders got sick or developed tumors and countless cases where rats from rat mills lived long and healthy lives.

Lastly, in order to compare commercially bred rats against hobby bred rats we have to group very different rats into only two or three categories. On one hand we have to assume that all hobby breeders are equally skillful at selecting the correct breeding stock and have access to rats with superior genes. Moreover, that they are all concentrating on the same traits that we are discussing here. And we know that's not true. Then, we have to assume that all rat mills are working with the same stock and are only focused on creating flesh by the pound as fast as possible. This is not likely true either. Then, we need to lump all of the pet shops together and assume that they don't care about their customers. While I'm sure that some don't, I am also sure that some do. Some sell feeder rats by the pound, while others are more likely to be concerned with selling friendly and healthy rats as pets. Pet shops are not all created equal, different rat mills are likely to work with different strains and produce rats with different qualities and some hobby breeders are likely to produce better rats than others.

If you know of a specific breeder that is breeding exceptionally high quality rats, I think everyone would appreciate the benefit of your experience. Also, if you know a particular rat mill that is producing particularly low quality rats, I think you should share that with the group too. Otherwise, suggesting that 99% of the rats and the American fancy are inferior or junk is meaningless and just might be insulting to the people that love them.

I might add that I have helped a lot of people with problem rats, most have been from pet shops or rescues that didn't properly re-socialize the problem rats they re-homed. It would be easier for me to say that rescue rats are going to bite or that pet shop rats are going to have more emotional problems than for most people based on my own experience.... but I won't. I know that some rescues take extreme measures to re-socialize problem rats and find them good homes, and I know that I only deal with the problem rats from pet shops and that most aren't screwed up, so my view is biased. 

There is a big difference between having a good point and overstating your case... In my experience based on a sample of four very healthy rats that haven't developed tumors, with great temperaments of different ages, I can say that I feel that our current rats are from a particularly desirable strain. I can also say that having adopted two rats from a certain specific rat mill and both having developed mammary tumors, that there appears to be a long term health issue with this particular line. But I couldn't possibly say that all hobby bred rats are healthy and all commercially farmed rats are sick... that would be insane... Nor would I say that, just because our rat mill rats had great temperaments that all rat mill rats have great temperaments... that would be an overstatement too. I might add that we have only ever had one ill-tempered rat, and she was turned into the store by a customer, supposedly from an accidental litter... and she was part wild. Aside from turning vicious when provoked, she actually made a loving friend and wonderful pet for my 5 year old daughter. So even many rats with a genetic propensity towards extreme violence can be socialized and safely handled with a bit of care and patience... and aren't junk rats. In fact, I've never met a junk rat from anywhere... On the other hand, great rats are wherever you find them.

In any case, the foregoing discussion isn't very relevant to the issue of quarantine.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Several weeks ago, I posted a thread about skipping quarantine. One of the last posts was by the administrator, Jaguar. This is what she said about quarantine.

Begin Quote


   Join DateNov 2009LocationBC, CanadaPosts3,522 







Quarantine is always recommended, but rarely ever able to be implemented properly in a home setting. Doing it "properly" means going the whole way - separate airspace with its own filtration as well as a shower, change of clothes, and preferably even waiting a few hours before handling non-QT rats. It's easy to see how the average person wouldn't be able to do this, and it's really no fault of theirs. Doing it less than properly might not be any more effective than not quarantining at all.

End Quote. 


All of my rats are from pet stores. The first three were feeder bin rats. The other two were pet store rats. My feeder rats were all from the same place. I got the last two somewhere else. I didn't quarantine. I was really scared about it afterwards. Nothing happened. All of my rats are healthy. 

Whether a rat comes from a breeder or comes from a pet store, ALL rats, unless they are laboratory rats, are born with* Mycoplasma pulmonis* .

http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/mycoplasma_mycoplasmosis.php

One result of having this bacteria is a compromised immune system. Mycoplasma, does not discriminate between pet shop rats and breeder rats. 

When I got my second rat from the feeder bin, one of the rats had what I thought was an eye infection. I now know it was porphyrin, which means that there was possibly a sick rat in the bin. That was over two months ago. None of my rats has ever been sick. 

Quarantine is recommended for both your existing rats, and the new rats because either set can be infected. That means that even though your own rats appear to be healthy, have been in your home free of illness, they can STILL have something that can be transferred to the new rats. 
_
Even breeders quarantine rats they get from other breeders._ That alone is proof enough for me that a breeder rat is not less likely to have inferior health than the rat from the pet store or feeder bin.

And on aggressive behavior......

Even though breeders select for temperament, they still have to cull rats that are born with aggressive tendencies and stop breeding that line.

That alone is proof enough for me that there is no guarantee that just because someone gets a rat from a breeder that it will be superior in temperament.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

NO ONE ever said that 100% of breeder rats are disease free, and that 100% of pet store rats are sick, aggressive...There are no certainties in life, ever. It is ALWAYS about minimizing risks and maximizing benefits. There are tons of people driving around without a seat belt who will never get into a car accident. Knowing that, would you drive without a seat belt? Same with rats. The CHANCES of getting aggressive or sick rats (dying from a car accident) is much higher in pet store rats (not wearing your seat belt) than in REPUTABLE breeders ( wearing your seat belt). It is really easy to understand, and I wish people would stop taking everything personally each time I state some facts.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I just want to make sure anyone reading this thread has the facts from both points of view. 

Alluding to the supposed superiority of breeder rats over pet store/feeder rats is not relevant to the topic.

However, since you are the one who started comparison, I thought the other side should be noted as well.

I believe potential rat owners should be aware of all aspects of adopting a rat and/or buying from a breeder. They should be allowed to review the information available and make up their own minds.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> I just want to make sure anyone reading this thread has the facts from both points of view. Alluding to the supposed superiority of breeder rats over pet store/feeder rats is not relevant to the topic. However, since you are the one who started comparison, I thought the other side should be noted as well.I believe potential rat owners should be aware of all aspects of adopting a rat and/or buying from a breeder. They should be allowed to review the information available and make up their own minds.


Exactly my point. That is why I always say that they are exceptions, or "on average", or "everything else equal". It is always about risks and rewards, nothing is set in stone in life- the only true certainty is that we will all die someday. On average you are less likely to die or get badly hurt in case of an accident if you wear your seat belt. On average, you are more likely to get a sick or aggressive rat from a pet store than from a good breeder. Everything else equal, someone with a college education will earn more money than someone who dropped out of high school...


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> On average, you are more likely to get a sick or aggressive rat from a pet store than from a good breeder.


The only way to determine this with any certainty would be to track the health and temperament of every single rat from a pet store, a feeder bin and breeder rats. Only then can an accurate statistics be calculated. 

It only stands to reason that if 1000 pet store/feeder bin rats are born in a month and only 100 breeder rats, there will be more events of illness among individuals in the larger population. 

What needs to be analyzed to make a proper and accurate comparison of the two is the percentage of occurrence within each group.

Do you have any numbers available? 

What we need are:



The number of rats born in a given time period from both groups.
Complete health records of all rats in each group.
Complete behavioral records of all rats of each group.
Without all of this information, no statistics can derived. Without statistics, we only have conjecture to based arguments on.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli,

No one, including myself has a problem when you say some strains might be healthier than others and some breeders take more precautions to keep their rats healthy than others... You might even want o endorse a particular breeder that you know.  I also have no problem when you say that rats that are pre-socialized are easier for new rat owners to start out with.... And again you can recommend a breeder or a rescue that you know to be particularly good. 

No one has issues when you state facts, but neither you nor I have met most breeders or been in most pet shops or inspected most rat mills, so we both have to live with the fact that 99% of the rats in the US fancy come from rat mills, BYB's or pet shops and for the most part they are friendly and healthy. So since most people have commercially bred and/or pet shop rats how can you be surprised when they get offended when you imply their rats are inferior? Most people love their rats and are going to tell you that their rats are second to none... regardless of where they were born. 

You are entitled to your opinion and you are more than welcome to be proud of your rats and your children, but don't be surprised if people taking exception when you imply their rats are junk or their children are stupid and ugly.....

I currently have a few rat pups up for adoption here in NJ that came from a very good line.... and I'm pre-socializing them myself... and I think these pups are going to grow up to be amazing... and I can say that without putting down any other rats regardless of where they were born.... I think my kid is smart and attractive, which doesn't in any way imply that yours or anyone else's isn't... See how easy it is to make a point without making everyone else feel bad?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm all for statistics. However, no rat mills will tell you how many rats died in their care and of what causes even before they hit the pet stores. No pet stores will tell you how many rats died in their care either. People adopting rats from shelters, Craigslist, rat rescues don't know where their rats came from...people adopting from backyard rat breeders probably have more issues than rats from reputable breeders, yet they didn't buy them at a pet store...we will need to define what's a reputable breeder is, what a good breeder is, what a backyard breeder is...there aren't that many undercover investigations at rat mills compared to puppy mills, however it is a well known fact that puppies from puppy mills have all kind of genetic defects, and sickness- even without knowing exactly how many of them are sick or will die prematurely. I know that washing my hands when coming home will significantly decrease my chances of getting a cold ...yet I have no idea how much less likely to catch a cold I'm now. Common sense alone (and a few Google searches about rat mills and other pet mills) will tell you that rats from pet stores are more likely (on average) to be sick and have behavioral issues than rats from a reputable breeder. Now are they 40% more likely to be sick or 80% more likely to be sick- I just don't know. All I know is that they are more likely to be sick, have degenerative illnesses, and behavioral issues. Same with puppies from puppy mills.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> The only way to determine this with any certainty would be to track the health and temperament of every single rat from a pet store, a feeder bin and breeder rats. Only then can an accurate statistics be calculated. It only stands to reason that if 1000 pet store/feeder bin rats are born in a month and only 100 breeder rats, there will be more events of illness among individuals in the larger population. What needs to be analyzed to make a proper and accurate comparison of the two is the percentage of occurrence within each group.Do you have any numbers available? What we need are:
> 
> The number of rats born in a given time period from both groups.
> Complete health records of all rats in each group.
> ...


Complete health records for all rats ever born? Lol. A little common sense will do here, I think.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> .... no rat mills will tell you how many rats died in their care and of what causes even before they hit the pet stores. No pet stores will tell you how many rats died in their care either.


And breeders won't let you into the rattery.

Again, without numbers, we only have conjecture.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

For the record, I never said that rats from pet stores or feeder bins are less worthy of love. NEVER. I was just saying that if the poster couldn't do a different home quarantine, her best bet was to get rats from a reputable breeder. I was just trying to help her/him. "Best bet" meaning here to minimize the risks- and again, there are still risks, just less so.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

It's obvious to me that you are set on always having the last word. Go ahead and post another response and be done with it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Conjecture def: "an opinion or idea formed without proof or sufficient evidence". There are plenty of proof that pets including rats from pet mills are more likely to have horrible degenerative diseases, sickness, and behavioral problems than well bred pets. Just Google it or go talk to people in rescue.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli,

You wrote: "Rats from rat mills have a high incidence of URIs, bad genetic, aggressive behavior, early onset of degenerative illnesses. They are bred over and over and over again with no attention to temperament or health."

It sounds like you are calling my kids both stupid and ugly, to me...


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli,

From your last post "are more likely to have" still sound like you think my kids aren't alright, but it's a definite improvement.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Gribouilli,You wrote: "Rats from rat mills have a high incidence of URIs, bad genetic, aggressive behavior, early onset of degenerative illnesses. They are bred over and over and over again with no attention to temperament or health."It sounds like you are calling my kids both stupid and ugly, to me...


Having a higher incidence of degenerative disease, behavioral problems...is just what it means: a higher incidence, not a certainty. I never called your rats stupid or ugly, you did that all by yourself by taking it personnaly. Again ON AVERAGE is the key word, people!!!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Have you ever considered the idea that _just maybe_ the way you structure your statements is offensive to people?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Gribouilli,From your last post "are more likely to have" still sound like you think my kids aren't alright, but it's a definite improvement.


On average doesn't mean that rats from rat mills are all average rats!!! It means that on average there are more sick, with behavioral problems rats coming from rats mills than reputable breeders! Both groups will have exceptional and awful rats, just not in the same proportions. And by awful rats I mean rats with congenital diseases, behavioral issues...I don't mean rats that are not worth loving.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli,

Seriously? Now you are adding congenital diseases to the list or woes low born rats have too? You just had to add a new put down to your list... did you just invent that? And why? And I'd say from personal experience that many low born rats are well above average... even if you weren't implying that they were mostly below average or that some were in fact average while most are not... double edge sword, the way you worded your post.... And I'm sure you didn't mean that awful rats and serial killers aren't worth loving.

You can't just say that certain breeders might have healthier lines and pre-socialize their rats better than some, many or even most rat mills or pet shops? Do you really need to get a new dig into each post....? You can promote your opinions without misleading people and offending most of the members here. 

And by the way, if everyone only adopted from reputable breeders with rats having a properly documented pedigree of good health and temperament, this fancy would functionally cease to exist in the US in about two years, when the pet store and feeder rats aged out... Rats might be a novelty for a couple more years... but then fancy brown rats would go the way of fancy black rats.... Remember black rats? The other half of the original rat fancy that wasn't bred for labs and reptile food. Left in the hands of reputable breeders each and every fancy line became extinct... When was the last time anyone has seen a white or green black rat? The reason you most likely don't remember them is that they became extinct long before any of us were ever born.

We don't know each other personally.. but I know you are too bright to be confused about what you are writing... we all love rats here, and we want the best for them, we want the best for our fellow rat owners and we want to promote the fancy so that it can eventually make more of a difference. I've read some of your other posts and for the most part you do try and help people... so why make people with commercial rats feel bad? 

If there were some rational way to win your side of this debate, and I don't believe there is, you would get more rats killed, make people feel worse about themselves and hurt or kill our fancy in general... you can't possibly see that as a win... 

Right now... I've got to attend to Misty... she looks really bored of watching me type and she's just about to use her brilliant intellect to unleash some new rodent mischief into my world.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I have 'Cinderella' rats. All five of them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It looks like a few persons don't get the meaning of "on average" or "everything else equal" and get offended by what most of us like to call reality. That's ok. Those people never were my target audience to start with. The person who asked the question got it and wasn't offended one bit.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I wasn't questioning your use of "on average" or "everything else equal", I was wondering about your use of "congenital defect" and 
"awful rats" and hot button terms like that... and why your message targets commercial rats or rather 'Cinderella' rats' and their owners... 


And by the way, I'm not sure you actually did answer the OP's question... were you implying that if the person couldn't find an ethical breeder that meets your standards.. that they shouldn't adopt another rat if their only option is a pet shop or a rescue?


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

On the question of quarantine, many of us don't quarantine, usually because like the OP we just don't have the facilities. If you don't quarantine, it's a good idea to know what's going on in your rat community. If there is a local rat forum watch there, if there is a local rescue check there. Try to find out what may be going on in regards to disease outbreaks in your area. This guide may also help: http://www.rmca.org/Data/. Some years ago there was Sendai outbreak in the Las Vegas area. We had a local forum so I knew who had had problems. It affected our rescue and some local breeders. At the time I wasn't looking for new rats so I just kept away from the affected areas I was aware of and local pet stores til it was over. Be aware of the dangers, try to mitigate them as much as possible and do the best you can.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> It looks like a few persons don't get the meaning of "on average" or "everything else equal"...


So............... in addition to putting my rats down, you are actually stooping so low as to insult my intelligence? 




Gribouilli said:


> Those people never were my target audience to start with.


And you admit that you are deliberately singling out specific people to argue with and insult?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Catty-ratty, Gribouilli was targeting people who might get scared away from commercially bred Cinderella rats, because she claims they are or might be disease carrying, vicious vermin, not those of us who know better... 

I honestly don't think she set out to insult anyone, it's just incidental to and possibly inherent in her agenda.

I'd love to think we can all be friends here.... We should all gather around the handful of 'ethical' breeders who are actually working on improving their lines. And pre-socialized rats with a good family history of health are a bargain at any price. This is a great message we can all get behind...

But by trashing all of the commercial rats and/or their owners, at least for now, that leaves 99% of the North American rat owners with no option for rats without feeling bad about them or even afraid of them... And this is a terrible message to send to our group. We need more people to adopt more rats so that more rats find good homes and that we become a louder voice for change.

Imagine if people found out someone was breeding puppies for anaconda or alligator food? Thousands of dog owners would be up in arms and it would stop fast. Our fancy is just not large enough to make that kind of a difference yet, and it's never going to get there without the help of the industry we eventually need to reform. Every time a rat mill sells a feeder rat to a new rat owner and it becomes a best furry friend, they make a new enemy for life. They are selling the nails for their own coffin. People don't care about rats until they own them.

At every meet and greet I did with Fuzzy Rat, I told her story, how she was bred in a terrible rat mill, ripped from her mom at only two weeks old, dumped into a feeder bin and almost sold to be crushed alive and eaten by a snake. Some people almost wept as they held and stroked the charming and charismatic Fuzzy Rat.. People would exclaim how tragic it would have been if she had perished in such an awful way... People became aware and hearts and minds were changed. And I'm pretty sure her story has been re-told... and with every re-telling we gain friends and rat mills become closer to extinction. A movement is a mathematical process of addition, not subtraction until it reaches critical mass. There is no rat or small animal lobby, because there just aren't enough people to support it yet.

When enough people walk into a pet shop and insist on quality pre-socialized rats that are well cared for, or object to the way rats are treated the store will change its policies and practices. And it will change its vendors or their vendors will have to change. There's no reason commercial sources can't improve the quality of the rats they produce, if it's financially advantageous to them. But if we drive off most of our community, by offending them... we haven't got a shot at changing anything.

Gribouilli, isn't the only person in our fancy that's off message, unfortunately there are still more than a few people out there who have it terribly wrong... Somehow I tend to think that most mean well, but some people most likely feel good about putting down other people... which is sad. There are some people we can't help, but there are some people who are bright and eloquent who I would like on our side... It's just a matter of changing hearts and minds... But the one thing I learned from the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat is that with infinite charm, patience and persistence everything is possible. We have a real pool of talent here... if we could only agree on something to do with it and stop using our particular gifts to kick each other around or worse yet drive people away. Whether people love their breeder rats, commercial rats, wild rats, black rats or wood rats or love other people who do, they all need to feel included and to support each other.

We shouldn't be infighting amongst ourselves, but we need to get everyone onto the same page... One community, one goal and one message... Every rat is precious, everyone who adopts and cares for a rat is a great human being and together we can change the world... even if only a little bit at a time.

So, I guess I have an agenda too... and there it is.


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

Don't make snake owners seem like bad guys in the process though! The rat mills are bad, but snake owners are just providing for their pretty much equally 'abnormal' pets.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Fraido,

I understand the special needs of snake owners. And perhaps there is an inherent conflict between snake owners need for abundant and inexpensive food and rat owners desire for a better world for rats...

But in all reality, when the rat fancy almost died out a few times in the last century it was labs and snake owners that kept the lines of domestic rats going in the US... Most of our rats actually do come from feeder rat breeders... And snake owners and feeder breeders keep rats inexpensive for those that adopt them as pets, so they actually help our fancy grow. If it weren't for snake owners there might not be a rat fancy in the US... For sure it wouldn't be nearly as large as it is.

Some day, I'd like to see this change, but for now... I'm a pragmatist and I'm not about to bite the hand that feeds me.

Closing rat mills and BYB's and stopping pet shops from selling abused rats by the pound is likely to upset some snake breeders or owners... I'm not sure that somewhere down the road we aren't going to be stepping on each others toes, but for now lets consider ourselves unlikely allies. 

Maybe someday. someone is going go come up with something better for snakes to eat... I mean, in nature very few snakes actually evolved eating brown rats in the first place... If they learned to eat rats, I suppose they could learn to eat something else.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> in nature very few snakes actually evolved eating brown rats in the first place... If they learned to eat rats, I suppose they could learn to eat something else.


I like this idea. I like snakes, but I won't keep one if I have to feed it live, or frozen critters either.


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

I get it. I guess as a snake owner and enthusiast myself and seeing the discrimination there as well as here, I just really wish the two hobbies were working as a team. 

I'm not sure that there's anything else snakes could be fed, are you thinking maybe some kind of artificial rat? Like rat tofu? Vegan snakes? Lol! Otherwise, something living or once living is going to be eaten so somebody is going to be upset no matter what you do. It's a struggle.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

I think gerbils should take one for the team. What? I'm saying what everyone else is thinking  but seriously, this threads going to get closed.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Remarks recorded at the first and last ever national rat and snake owners convention (held in the ballroom adjacent to the short person's association convention)....

"Your hobby ate my fancy!"

"Or I'm sorry to announce that someone accidentally left the giant anaconda display cages unlocked.... and the rat judging and little person's convention will be cancelled... due to lack of participation..."


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And there's got to be something everyone hates that we can chop up and stuff into a digestible fur suit to feed to snakes.... lawyers or politicians for example

You all do realize I'm kidding?


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

Lol, I guess we're pretty off topic! Sooo... if you can't quarantine, either don't and know the risks or don't get new rats. I've never been able to quarantine in my home.


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