# Home-mixed, varied, organic rat food diet



## PackLife (Apr 7, 2011)

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forums but I have been caring for rats for over ten years.

I'm very aware of the crap food offered by most sources, and only recently learned about HT lab blocks. I was wondering if there were any other rat owners who offered a home-mixed diet even though they're not scientifically proven to be "nutritionally complete." After all, isn't variety the key?

I offer my rats a mix of mostly organic grains, along with legumes, seeds, nuts, sprouts, fruit, veggies, eggs, chicken bones, and domestic-bred insects/worms/larvae. None of these items are refused, but a few are certainly preferred (like the bugs they get every so often).

Constructive criticism? Thoughts? Ideas?


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

My constructive criticism would be to look up rats nutritional needs, and try to work out a diet that will fill each need. It is a lot of math (this is where an excel spreadsheet comes in handy) and can be hard, as adding one food throws off the balance of other nutrients. Also look up what is too much of certain vitamins, as many can be very harmful.
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/homemadediet.htm

As for just throwing healthy food together, try to think about it like this, peas, rice, and apples are all healthy, but wouldn't provide us with a balanced diet. Same concept, rats need certain vitamins, and too much or too little can cause serious problems.

ETA: While HT isn't the absolute best food ever, it is the best available food. But my rats absolutely love it, but also get treats like dried pasta, various veggies, etc each day for variety. So lab blocks don't mean no variety


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## ratfan06 (Dec 31, 2010)

I feed a homemade mix and got away from rat blocks quite a while ago. They get a dry mix, plus a variety of foods throughout the day. I didn't jump into it and don't feed just anything. I've seen no health problems from it and most of my rats have been living well over two years.


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## Annahra (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm kind of inclined to do the same thing as well--I mean, rats have very similar nutritional requirements to ours, so if I'm feeding Fib similar things to what I'm eating plus a good grain mix, wouldn't his diet be as balanced as mine? I mean, you don't see parents buying Kid Chow. Not trying to start an argument, just really curious for input.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

> We can see that the daily nutrient requirements of the rat are very similar to that of the human. Notable exceptions, however, are calcium, manganese, vitamin K, and vitamin B12 -- rats need 130%, 130%, 490%, and 290% more, respectively, of these nutrients than we do! Calcium deficiency results in stunted growth, osteoporosis, rear leg paralysis, and internal bleeding. Manganese deficiency results in birth defects, reduced food intake, stunted growth, skeletal deformities, and early death. Vitamin K deficiency results in major blood losses from minor injuries and spontaneous internal bleeding. Vitamin B12 deficiency results in stunted growth.


Parents don't feed kids "kid chow" but most feed their children poor diets. We also have a much harder time overdosing on most vitamins than rats.

ETA: I have no problem with a homemade mix, I just really think it would be a good idea to make sure it meets rats' needs due to the issues with too much or too little of certain vitamins and minerals, fat, protein, etc.


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## Annahra (Apr 7, 2011)

smesyna said:


> Parents don't feed kids "kid chow" but most feed their children poor diets. We also have a much harder time overdosing on most vitamins than rats.
> 
> ETA: I have no problem with a homemade mix, I just really think it would be a good idea to make sure it meets rats' needs due to the issues with too much or too little of certain vitamins and minerals, fat, protein, etc.


Not gonna argue with the poor diets humans eat! I'm pretty nutrition-conscious though so typical human diet in this household isn't really typical (plus I wouldn't share my junk food forays with Fib). Thank you for the link--interesting information. I wonder what the measurement is, though--is that % more based on weight, or what (i.e. I need 1000 mg of calcium a day, but I'm assuming Fib doesn't need 1300 but rather 130% more based on his size)? Will need to look into it a little more.

I suppose my biggest argument would be if we are changing the diet so up to 50% comes from fresh foods and a grain mix and only 50% from a "balanced" pellet, isn't that already unbalancing things? If each pellet contains the correct proportion of nutrients but they constitute only half of the diet, then the other half of the diet has to be relatively balanced as well or they may only be getting 50% of their daily requirements of a certain nutrient. So if the other half must already be balanced in order to avoid deficiencies, why bother with the pelleted ration at all? Again, just playing devil's advocate--I really want to know what people think.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

When people say the staple in a homemade diet, they don't mean lab blocks always. I personally don't give half mix half lab blocks. The veggies are required no matter what, and the pasta and other healthy foods I give are treats, up to ten percent of the diet can be treats I believe. 

If you figure out a nutritionally complete diet, by all means give it by it's self.

Percents work out to a steady amount per weight of the animal, because bigger animals eat more so even though the percent of the diet is the same, it gets more mg of the nutrients.


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## RatBastard (Mar 23, 2011)

Great thread, I was looking everywhere for some kind of chart with portion sizes/nutrient requirements broken down by age, weight, sex etc. For example, I would assume that younger rats may need more of a certain thing and not so much of another to help them grow or something like that. I feed my ratties L&M Farms Lab blocks and they love them! They must have been fed these where they are bred because they dont mind the blandness and seem to enjoy them. Now for the part I am confused about, My rats always seem hungry! I usually give them one block in the morning, a taste of whatever I have for lunch and another block at lunch time and then dinner is usually what I have or something especially prepared for my buddies. I make an organic rolled oat mix with dry brown rice, plain unsalted rice cakes crumbled into balls, a small amount of flax seeds and a semolina pasta noodle or two is available to them at all times. At lunch and dinner they are given their vegetables which I treat as a treat so they get excited for them, usually carrot sticks, broccoli , celery, or whatever veggie I am having that day. I give them apples, blackberries and strawberries every other day and I give them a special warm cereal mix that I got the recipe for on the forums for a treat on the weekends. Are rats always starving? I know they have a high metabolism but jeez! They usually stash a few noodles and lab blocks for later but for the most part they finish everything I give them. Am I doing something wrong or are rats just that hungry?


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## RatBastard (Mar 23, 2011)

This link has some amazing information. It is based on scientific studies done on the keeping of laboratory rats. Check it out, it is very informative. http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4758&page=11


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Lab blocks are meant to be fed as the ONLY food. That's what "complete" means. When you start adding other foods to the diet, you absolutely ARE throwing off the nutrients, which can possibly put everything out of balance.

Personally, I really don't like the idea of feeding lab blocks. I look at lab blocks the same way I look at kibble. It is quick, convenient, easy, and relatively inexpensive. But it doesn't meant it is the best out there. My dogs and cats are on a raw, biologically appropriate diet, because I believe that's what is best for them. So why would I feed my rats a pellet made from fillers with chemical nutrients added for "completeness"? 

I've actually come up with a homemade diet using minimally processed, whole foods that on paper works. I tried to look at the types of foods rats would naturally forage for. I also selected for those foods which have known health benefits (such as anti-oxidants). The diet is based off fresh produce, about 1:4 ratio of fruit:veggie. Only about 20-25% of their diet is composed of grain, which is included primarily for the energy content (most of the necessary nutrients are obtained from the produce). There are a few supplemental feeds included a couple times a week. I am just starting my rats on this diet, so I do not yet know if it actually works well, and for that reason am cautious to share the recipe just yet. However, when I know it works, I will be more than happy to share. 

I think when it comes to homemade diets for rats, being that they are omnivorous, the key is healthy, whole foods with lots of variety.


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## PackLife (Apr 7, 2011)

I decided to offer my rats food this way after I decided to offer my dogs a raw diet. I don't think very highly of the idea of "nutritionally complete" foods. I don't know for sure, but I just think that nutritionally complete foods were designed for laboratory animals. In a lab setting, where everything must be controlled, offering a healthy diet with fresh foods is just too inconvenient. A "nutritionally complete" food in the form of a lab block was the solution. I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but it makes sense in my head.

As omnivores, rats should be able to pull their nutritional needs from a variety of foods, like humans. My belief is that the key isn't eating exactly this amount of Food A and exactly this amount of Vitamin Z per day, but eating a variety of foods from different "food groups." My dogs are doing better on my raw diet than they've ever done on kibble, and I've had rats live long lives without dying of malnutrition.


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## Snippet (Dec 30, 2010)

Sorraia has written my thoughts down in an easily understood way. My girls have been getting a home made mix for the past year, and they're looking good on it. What I like about making my own mix is that I can shange it to suit my rats at any given life stage. Currently it has eaily processed protein and it's also low in phosphorus to make it as kidney friendly as possible for my older girls. I could easily fiddle about with the ingrediants to make a suitable mix for young rats.

I do have to give supplements with my mix as it is low in certain vitamins and minerals, but it isn't too much hassle, and the pay off is that my rats are in fantastic condition.


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## Scuff (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't have anything against feeding rat blocks exclusively, with treats on the side, provided that it's a high quality block. Stuff from Mazuri, Kay-Tee, etc. are not examples of a high quality block, but I'd be okay using something like Oxbow or Harlan Teklad. Those are nutritionally complete, and are meant to be fed as the sole diet, and aren't loaded up with a lot of additional fluff. In my opinion, you can't create a natural and complete diet in your home, or at least not as accurately as you should, without a lot of research into the nutritional needs of your animals. Unless you're a nutritionist, getting the ratios of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients correct is likely to be a very difficult task.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I have been keeping up with Sorraia's research on rat nutrition. And so far if anyone I know of has the knowledge thats who I trust.

I will continue to feed Lab blocks until someone shows me a better option with backed research. I am excited to hear how this balanced mix for rats turns out. And if it is good I will consider switching to it.

but right now with 15 rats, it is not totally feasible price wise. In the future when I have less rats I will absolutely be feeding an alternative to lab blocks.
I love Harlan Tek, but like kibble, there ARE better options.


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## Scuff (Apr 1, 2011)

Well it's not that I disagree with Sorraia. I too think that the best diet is one as close to their natural diet as possible, both in nutrition and in form, but like you said, it's just not feasible for people with more than a few rats. I barely have time in my life to cook myself a decent meal, much less formulate a diet for my rats, and I don't think I'm doing them any disservice by giving them a high quality rat block.

15 rats though? I can't imagine how much food you'd go through.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

A safe estimate is 40 pounds a month? Thats plus veggies and fruit heh


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

PackLife said:


> I decided to offer my rats food this way after I decided to offer my dogs a raw diet. I don't think very highly of the idea of "nutritionally complete" foods. I don't know for sure, but I just think that nutritionally complete foods were designed for laboratory animals. In a lab setting, where everything must be controlled, offering a healthy diet with fresh foods is just too inconvenient. A "nutritionally complete" food in the form of a lab block was the solution. I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but it makes sense in my head.


This is EXACTLY true. Lab blocks were originally designed for laboratory animals. The HT is still designed for lab rats. Diet is one thing that must be controlled in experiments, and that's the purpose of lab blocks: control. HOWEVER, what most people don't seem to realize, is that most lab animals don't even reach maturity. They are kept alive for the completion of an experiment (which sometimes lasts as long as the animal's natural life span, but sometimes only lasts a few month), then they are sacrificed. Many animals are sacrificed over the course of the study for dissection and examination of their organs, depending on what specifically the experiment is and what it is examining. So for this reason, many lab blocks are designed for growing rats, NOT mature rats. Even the lowest protien HT, at 14% protein, is too high for mature rats. Mature rats really only need half that amount. There is some evidence that too much protein actually can cause health issues - it may actually cause the development of tumors, and can wear down the kidneys prematurely (since the kidneys have to filter out that excess protein). Protein is the big reason a lot of people include produce, to "lower" the amount of protein consumed. HOWEVER - in order to feed enough produce to even achieve that goal, the animal will then be deriving most of its nutrition from the produce. So in the end... what is the point of even feeding lab blocks in the first place?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Scuff said:


> Well it's not that I disagree with Sorraia. I too think that the best diet is one as close to their natural diet as possible, both in nutrition and in form, but like you said, it's just not feasible for people with more than a few rats. I barely have time in my life to cook myself a decent meal, much less formulate a diet for my rats, and I don't think I'm doing them any disservice by giving them a high quality rat block.
> 
> 15 rats though? I can't imagine how much food you'd go through.


The more animals you have, the more involved it becomes. This is where a degree of determination is necessary. IF a whole foods, minimally processed diet is actually healthier than lab blocks - while it may be more expensive to feed, in the long run it might be less expensive with fewer vet bills. Imagine... what if a diet could be devised that is not only naturally complete and balanced, but also helps keep the immune system strong enough to fight off common illnesses, such as respiratory infection? What if such a diet also decreased the likelihood of tumors? What if such a diet prevent hind end degeneration? And so on. Vet bills are perhaps one of the most expensive parts about owning rats, and can become very costly very quickly. If these vet bills can be prevented from the beginning by a good, but perhaps a little more expensive and intensive, diet, is it not worth it?

For the record, I currently have 34 rats. With that many rats, if the diet works for me, it will work for anyone. 

Also for the record - I've dived into nutritional research not just for rats, but other animals as well: my dogs and cats, my horses, even birds (I have a canary). I've developed nutritionally complete diets for all of my animals, and they are doing beautifully on it. All of the changes I've seen since getting them off processed foods and putting them on whole food, minimally processed diets, have been for the better. Better condition, better health, better mind. I guarantee you I saved a LOT of money on vet bills since putting these animals on better diets.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

how much would you have to alter a raw diet to compensate for a rat's age and growth needs, though? i can't tell whether it would be more difficult or easier to feed whole raw foods if you had rats all over the age spectrum. you'd have to calculate multiple diet formulations, add or remove ingredients depending, separately feed them by age group, control how much of each specific food they're eating... it could get tough for someone who has limited time, money, and resources as it is. i've long debated giving it a try as i only have two boys who are around the same age, but i've not found any absolutely complete diet plan available and it is past my comprehension to make one myself. xD


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Jaguar said:


> how much would you have to alter a raw diet to compensate for a rat's age and growth needs, though? i can't tell whether it would be more difficult or easier to feed whole raw foods if you had rats all over the age spectrum. you'd have to calculate multiple diet formulations, add or remove ingredients depending, separately feed them by age group, control how much of each specific food they're eating... it could get tough for someone who has limited time, money, and resources as it is. i've long debated giving it a try as i only have two boys who are around the same age, but i've not found any absolutely complete diet plan available and it is past my comprehension to make one myself. xD


Once you have the basic maintenance diet calculated out, it really isn't that hard to alter it for other life stages. It is especially easy when you have a program to automatically calculate everything as you plug in numbers (amounts) for each ingredient (I do - excel can do wonderful things if you know how to use it), and when you've done enough research to have an idea of what nutrients will be contributed from this food or that.

I already have diets devised for each life stage (growth, maintenance, early pregnancy, late pregnancy, lactation). It really wasn't that hard, its just a matter of building onto the basic maintenance diet. 

And as far as it being more difficult to feed multiple life stages - It really isn't. How difficult is it to feed different species? (If you have cats, dogs, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, birds, fish, reptiles, whatever you will be feeding each species according to its needs. Think of different life stages as different "species". Its not that big a difference really.) And realistically, even if you are feeding lab blocks, different life stages should be getting different formulas, so you still would have to keep different foods on hand if your rats aren't all in the same stage.


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## Scuff (Apr 1, 2011)

I guess my biggest issue with your claim so far is not having any data to go along with it. Would you be willing to list your formula for us to look over? Also, can anyone offer a chart of required nutrition for rats in percentages? (% protein, fat, vitamin a, etc.)


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

MG are far more helpful. Sorraia has it in her blog in her signature ("nomonology").


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Scuff said:


> I guess my biggest issue with your claim so far is not having any data to go along with it. Would you be willing to list your formula for us to look over? Also, can anyone offer a chart of required nutrition for rats in percentages? (% protein, fat, vitamin a, etc.)


Right now I am not willing to share it because although everything looks good in theory, I don't know if it works in practice. If I share it and people take it and use it and for some reason it does NOT work as well as it looks on paper, *I* am at fault and now rats could be potentially put at risk because of it. I would much rather *MY* personal rats be used as the "guinea pigs" first (and this should also go to show how confident I am in the recipe - that I am willing to use it on my personal babies who I have loved and cared for since birth, I would NOT willingly do this if I did not have confidence it will work). If it works well for them and they do quite well on it, then I will be willing to share, not just the recipe, but the calculations that go with it. 

As for the charts you are requesting, as smesyna said, you can check my blog. Here are links directly to those specific posts:
http://nom-ology.blogspot.com/2010/12/nutritional-content-of-popular-diets.html
http://nom-ology.blogspot.com/2011/01/chart-nutrient-deficiency-and-toxicity.html
http://nom-ology.blogspot.com/2011/02/chart-nutrients-in-food.html


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## RatBastard (Mar 23, 2011)

Scuff said:


> I guess my biggest issue with your claim so far is not having any data to go along with it. Would you be willing to list your formula for us to look over? Also, can anyone offer a chart of required nutrition for rats in percentages? (% protein, fat, vitamin a, etc.)


 Check out the link I posted on the first page of this thread. It is alot of reading but if you want the info it goes quick because it is very informative. I had all these same questions when I became a new Ratty owner last month and finally stumbled across this article through someone elses link in this thread. I will repost it for you.


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## RatBastard (Mar 23, 2011)

Here you go. I know it says Laboratory Rats but just read through. It gives all the latest scientific information on all stages of the rats life. It is by far the most informative article I have come across . http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4758&page=11


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

RatBastard said:


> Here you go. I know it says Laboratory Rats but just read through. It gives all the latest scientific information on all stages of the rats life. It is by far the most informative article I have come across . http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4758&page=11


Good reading for sure. This is the first article I have summarized in my blog. Actually, it is summarized over 6 blog posts, see the 2010 archives.


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## shawnalaufer (Aug 21, 2011)

Here is what I feed:
http://ratwhisperer.blogspot.com/p/our-rat-diet.html
To sum it up, I made a rat cereal mix that is given daily along with lab block. On Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays the ratties receive Green Mush with either fruit or veggie babyfood (it alternates). Fresh fruits and veggies are given, alternating daily (fruit, veggie, fruit, veggie, ect). Treats are kept just as that- treats and are used mostly when free roaming (trying to train them to come by name, etc). 



BTW- its a new blog and I would love if some of you could join it. Just click "Join this Site" or you could follow by email.


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