# Aggressive Rats, Argh!



## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

So, man, we are just not having any luck with our kids today. Penelope has had to be separated as she was biting and scratching Pickle and generally picking fights with both of the girls. After a couple mornings of waking up to Tali with scratches on her face, I just wasn't comfortable leaving Penelope in with them. We were trying to avoid this, since she's already got enough problems, but Pickle already seems so much more calm now that Penelope isn't around to terrorize her.

Then tonight, we had a major situation with the boys. Pran and The Dude have always been prone to a little scuffling. No blood had been drawn, but they'll box and squeak and generally be grumps for a few minutes. We figured this would work itself out, since they're probably still trying to work their hierarchy out. Tonight the fighting was especially bad, and then The Dude started attacking the other two boys as well. We didn't realize until we'd broken it all up that he had dealt a bad gash to Alistair's back. We separated The Dude, hoping to give him some time to chill out. Pran is acting extra antsy, squeaking and trying to run away when we pick him up. Alistair is understandably freaked out; his back seems alright, it's not bleeding a ton and he's moving around fine. The Dude is acting skittish and weird. It's bizarre, they were getting along quite well, and now all of a sudden they all seem incredibly on edge. The babies aren't old enough to be going through "ratty puberty". I don't know what would have triggered this.

EDIT: We actually ended up having to separate Pran, rather then The Dude. Seems Pran was the one actually picking fights, and The Dude just sort of blindly attacked Alistair in the middle of the fight. Who knows what goes on in their heads in the middle of a duel. /facepalm Atticus has been such a sweety though, trying to clean Alistair's wound. Atticus is the only one who doesn't seem to have gone totally bonkers.

Once again I wish we could afford spaying and neutering. But I'm thinking maybe we should try restarting on the boys' introductions and see if this helps? I'm not really sure what we can do for Penelope, besides a spay (which just really isn't an option at the moment). I'm not even sure why she started spontaneously getting aggressive towards the other two. Maybe we should scoot the girls' cage and the boys' cage farther apart from each other? Maybe being so close to members of the opposite gender has everybody in a fit.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

So, after contacting our preferred vet, while he doesn't spay he does neuter. So I'm thinking about having the boys neutered. Especially Pran, but perhaps all of them. It only costs 85, much much less than the other vet wanted to spay our girls. I'd say the only rat who doesn't seem on edge is Atticus, but if he is neutered as well then they can all interact with the girls. 

As for Penelope, well, I'm still trying to figure out what to do about that.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

How old are your boys? A little while ago Pip and Ludo started some major scuffles, resulting in several scratches on Pip's back and shoulders and a nick on Ludo's tail. I have no idea what started the fights, but they have since settled down - so I suspect they were just dominance fights.

If you're really uncomfortable with them being together, then I would only let them interact during supervised free range time. I think separating actually does more harm than good, because after a while you have to go through the whole introduction thing again. 

I don't think neutering would be a bad idea - and that way you can have both boys and girls out at the same time.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

We can't be sure about the two older boys, and I'm not very good at guessing ages as it stands. Maybe close to a year? Definitely "full grown". The babies are both around 3 months. I didn't want to separate them. We tried breaking it up and giving them some time to cool off, and then put them back in. The fighting only got worse after that, which resulted in Alistair getting his nasty bite (which is healing quite well). I'm sure it was just dominance fighting, but when Alistair got hurt that's when I decided every body needed a break.

As it stands, we've got the two older boys back together and the babies together. I think we'll try easing them back into some introductions and see how that goes. Hopefully we'll be able to neuter everyone; maybe not at the same time, but we'll probably do Pran and Atticus first and then the babies. This'll probably help everyone chill out, and yeah, that way we can let all the ratties play together.

And, with any luck, I can save up to spend the ridiculous amount of money it would cost to spay Penelope. Maybe we won't have to, we'll see.


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## dapples (Apr 24, 2010)

If you do get your boys neutered, you'll love it! So much less dribbling all over the place, none of that buck grease, and my boy smells wonderful! ;D Good luck with your situation!


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

Haha Well those will definitely be some added benefits, I'm just hoping they can start getting along again. 

Just FYI, Alistair's back has healed up perfectly. I was checking it constantly for any swelling or signs of infection, fussing nonstop, but he seems perfectly fine.

And, as for Penelope, I think she will be housed alone until, perhaps, we can manage to spay her. We tried letting her interact with the girls some and they started fighting immediately. And, to be honest, she seems to be more comfortable by herself. She'll actually come out from under her fleece, she'll come up and sniff at me (though she still flips out if I move). I hate for her to miss out on that socialization, but for now I think it'll do. Maybe in a month or so we can save up the money to spay her.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I would definatly aim to get Penelope spayed first. Even if she was still aggressive to the girls, you could try her with the boys!


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## Nienor (May 1, 2010)

Why do you want to spay a girl ?
I you want to neuter the boys anyway you can introduce her to the neutered boys after 2 weeks of quarantene. It is much easier to introduced females to castrates than any other introduction.
And never introduce a spayed girl to intact boys they will still mount her all the time as if she was intact. She woulld be stressed all the time. If they were neutered, ok, but without medical necessity (womb tumor, pyometra) I would never spay a girl. The benefits from that surgery do not justify the high risks of an surgery of this size. The abdomen has to be opened ! It is not light a tumor removal. The risks are far higher.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

I was looking into spaying Penelope because she is incredibly high-strung, aggressive towards her cagemates, aggressive and fearful towards people. We've been trying to do trust training with her but it seems to go nowhere; she may improve for a day or two, even a week, before reverting back to the same behavior as before. I know there are risks involved in such a procedure, but I was hoping it might help improve her temperament and allow her to live happily with the other girls and maybe even us.


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## Nienor (May 1, 2010)

Spaying only changes behavior that is caused by hormones. I dont think that all your problems are caused by hormones. It could be only character and previos experiences. Or even gens, depending on where she comes from. Has she always been like this and lived alone or did she grew up with cagemates and changed sometime ?
Better try her first with calm castrates in regard to the risks. I lost my girl after spaying due to a pyometra very little vets even do it with healthy rats due to the risks. I would always try any other way before risking her life.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

As far as I know she grew up with cagemates; she's one of our "pet store rats" so we don't exactly know as much about her as we would like. She was housed with her sister Pickle when we purchased her, who we also own. Pickle is perfectly well-tempered; smart, inquisitive, full of personality. Penelope, however, from day one has always been very fearful, and this behavior has just escalated, and then the aggression started happening.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

With a good experinced vet, I would feel comftable having a spay done. Her hormones directly effect her temperment, so it will likely make her not as high strung. She is in good health otherwise and still young.


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## Nienor (May 1, 2010)

Her behavoir did not accidently changed when the boys moved in did it ?
That temperament must not be caused by hormones if you have bad luck the surgery does not change anything.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

If it's related to the boys, it took a while for it to start happening. She was always fearful and a biter before the boys even showed up; we've had trouble with her from the very beginning.

She is in good health, definitely. The vet we'd have to use, while expensive, seemed very experienced with rats. He had a genuine love for them, from what I could tell. I believe he would take good care of Penelope.

At this point, I feel like we've got little other option. My fiancé has been pressing for us to simply take her to a rescue, but I want to believe there's still a chance for her. 

As it stands, she's still got while for us to work with her before we set an appointment for a spay. We'll have to save up the money first, so maybe in that time we can somehow magically turn her into a happy rat. :


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

I would suggest moving the girls and boys to different rooms and see how that works first, just to save you some money. The spay should may help though. I used to have a very tempermental boy who would pick on his cagemate when he was able to smell the girls.Afyter moving cages to different rooms I've never had the problem again. Most likely your boys and girls are fighting over who gets to be the one to mate. Your girls may be in heat and your guys are going bonkers over it.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

Unfortunately we can't move them elsewhere. The best we could do is put some more space between the boys and the girls. :\ I was forced to move them all outside to the garage.


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh ok, that's to bad. Well I'm just thinking that your boys may still act up because of the other girls


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

The garage is actually working out pretty well for them so far. It doesn't get hot at all, it's actually usually cooler than anywhere else in the house. If it does get a smidge warm, it's nothing a fan doesn't fix. And since we had the extra room out there we got to set up both of the CNs. 

Maybe we can scoot one of the cages elsewhere. I'll have to brainstorm.


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh I never meant that the garage was to bad, just that there wasn't another room or devider. I know from your other posts the struggle you had trying to find a place, and how much work you did on the garage just to make it a suitible place for them to live.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

At the very least I may be able to put a desk between them so they're much farther apart on the wall. That way they wouldn't be right next to each other, at least.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I really doubt its because of the boys... the problem would of started almost as soon as you put them together. (Unless they were all babies) 

I read somewhere recently (I will try find a link...) that you can feed a calmer. Which is like powder you would just give her daily in her food. If I remember right they are marketed for dogs, but even if you gave extra... its like revolution and takes alot to overdose. 

You could TRY that, once I find out more info that is. But I think a spay is the best option. Its strange because her sisters so friendly... maybe she just pulled the short straw. 

Dont give her to a rescue :'( If you cant deal with her, there wont be many who can.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

Yeah, her aggression started weeks after the boys showed up; I will admit all the girls seemed a little crazy for a few days when Atticus and Pran came home, but shortly after they adjusted and everything went back to normal.

That sounds interesting. It would be amazing if it worked. I really, truly don't want to get rid of her. I'm not the sort to just give up on an animal simply because of bad behavior. I just want her to have a chance to enjoy life for once. My chihuahua is the devil incarnate and I still love him and would never give him away because of the same reasoning. If I can't handle him and stick it out, I know nobody else can.

And seriously, if she was half as well behaved as Pickle it'd be a walk in the park. I was hoping Pickle would rub off on her, but alas. It was actually becoming the opposite; Pickle was becoming more and more high string as Penelope bullied her. Now that Penelope is separated Pickle can relax, and is back to her usual self.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Who is the alpha? And who is the oldest?

I was thinking maybe if you added a larger more dominant female, she might calm down a bit.


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## VictorianVanity (Mar 18, 2010)

Tali is both the oldest and the most dominant of our girls. However, Penelope often caused problems with her as well; more than once we came in in the morning to find Tali was scratches all over her face, and they were constantly bickering. 

I'm not sure where I might find such a lady. Tali doesn't exactly dwarf Penelope, and while she will power groom and tussle with Penelope, she doesn't seem to be getting the message across well that she's the boss. Haha


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