# Ratty Conformation



## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

I don't know much about rat conformation other than the well muscled/rounded ones look better and I can't tell if something is wrong unless it's obvious (human looking ears, super thin legs). I was wondering if anyone on here knew of a good site with pictures and descriptions of pre-judged rats to learn from.

At this point I'm more comfortable in being an onlooker/researcher of rats than an owner. Their such curious and expensive lil' critters.

Edit: Alright, here's an example to give a better idea of the info I'm looking for: Boo Boo is a RRLM Rat and I don't see much to him other than chub, not trying to offend, that's just all I see. And I have no idea if that's all there is to see. There are quite a few pictures on the site, I was wondering what others see and if they're faults or good points. Link: http://ratzrealm.com/id101.htm


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Check out the good breeders who mention qualities in their rats to give you an idea

http://www.dazzlemerats.com/

Black Wolf Rattery (Sorraia from here) is especially good at this)

http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Cool, thanks. I've looked at Sorraia's site several times, but it always tskes me a while to find the whole pages. Although, I didn't know that DAZL had some similar info available.

From what I figure on looking over Sorraia's notes rats are supposed to have big ears and thick tails (atleast bigger/thicker than a few rats she has notes on). Lol And I thought their ears looked pretty rounded (I thought that's all they needed to be).

What is light-bone? It's used to describe BWR Quinbus Flestrin.

In horses it generally means: Light working horses or horses with thinner legs and generally daintier features. My filly
would probably fall under this category due to her size and build (or lack their of).


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

As a layman I would also consider it to be the same with rats...


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

"Good" conformation will depend partly on what club you are following. Though most club standards are similar, there can be a few differences. I mostly closely follow the AFRMA standards since that's what I am most familiar with and have observed in person.

"Light" bone means pretty much the same as it does in horses or other animals. The animal is daintier, maybe even "frail" (depending on how "light" their bone really is). A male rat will have "heavier" bone than a "female", but an animal with "heavier" bone will have a naturally larger frame and better able to carry good muscle than an animal with lighter bone.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks for the info. 

This is going to be fun sifting through websites to learn a bit more.


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## betuana (Apr 3, 2011)

If you want more stuff to sift through to read standards, URSA also has a good listing of their standards online. They go over ears, tails, etc in the general section, and then various coats, markings, colors in other sections. Its a different set of standards than AFRMA, though they do probably share similar aspects. More stuff to read! 

http://www.ratfanciers.net/ursa.html


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks, I've already looked through most of the rat standards from the organizations, though. I'm primarily looking for visual standards to help learn faults, advantages, and such; basically I want to learn what a perfectly built rat looks like whether it be a learning sketch or a pic of an actual award winner set up to view all of their features.

I really like the ear outlines they have up on their site, but I'm surprised to see that they didn't have up some of the funkier variations.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

I stopped looking at confirmation. The ones I chose for their looks and built were the least social and supposedly from a good breeder who has won many rewards in shows with her rats.
The most fun I have had with rats are with my current rats; one, destined to become food for wildlife (due to anti social behavior with rats and people) and the other from Petco.
Looks are not everything, just like with people.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

ratjes said:


> I stopped looking at confirmation. The ones I chose for their looks and built were the least social and supposedly from a good breeder who has won many rewards in shows with her rats.
> The most fun I have had with rats are with my current rats; one, destined to become food for wildlife (due to anti social behavior with rats and people) and the other from Petco.
> Looks are not everything, just like with people.


Very much, BUT a breeder winning awards really means nothing at all. It just means the group she belongs to breeds similar rats and is not proof of health, temperament or even ethical breeding LOL

I would like a rat with the whole package...good conformation can affect a lot of health issues. HED is often because of bad conformation. A rat more prone to URI's /sinus issues may have a narrow head (that's almost all we see in rats in Ontario now )


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ratjes said:


> I stopped looking at confirmation. The ones I chose for their looks and built were the least social and supposedly from a good breeder who has won many rewards in shows with her rats.
> The most fun I have had with rats are with my current rats; one, destined to become food for wildlife (due to anti social behavior with rats and people) and the other from Petco.
> Looks are not everything, just like with people.


Like lilspaz pointed out, winning awards doesn't mean much. Many clubs and organizations are also full of "politics". Certain clubs that won't be named ONLY allow rats from certain breeders to win, and will change their judging criteria to make it so. For example, Rats 1 and 2 are from big winner Breeder A, while rats 3 and 4 are from Breeder B who isn't part of the "in" crowd. Rats 1 and 3 are in the same class together, rat 1 wins because it has better conformation even though rat 3 has better color and markings. Rats 2 and 4 are also in the same class together, but rat 2 wins because it has better color, even though rat 3 has better conformation. All four rats would have equal temperament during the period of judging. I have observed this happen in person, and it is one of the reasons I stopped showing. If shows are truly meant to be objective to determine the best rats, the judging needs to be consistent. Judges need to STOP picking and choosing their favorite rats based on who bred them, and altering their judging criteria in order to do so. If Rat 1 because of better conformation, then rat 3 also should have won. Sadly that isn't the case

Honestly, I put very very little consideration in awards and show winnings. Rat clubs are NOT unified the way many dog breed clubs and other species clubs are. Rat clubs are NOT national, the way the AKC and organizations for other animals are. A rat that is the best in show winner from NIRO or RFL or RatsPacNW may NOT be a winner in AFRMA, and vice versa. ALSO - Winners are ONLY winners against those other rats in the show. If you have 10 crappy rats in a show, one of them is going to win, even though it may have horrible conformation, just because it is the best of those 10. You can have a PERFECT rat somewhere who will never win an award because it is NOT being shown. Shows can also be very stressful on the animals. When I was still showing I had one rat who was disqualified for "bad temperament". This rat was one of the sweetest rats you could have met, and even won "friendliest" and "most laid back" in the pet classes. Why was he disqualified? Because the judge was being particularly rough with him trying to "set him up" in a certain pose. He got tired of it and tried to push her hands away so he could have a rest. I frankly don't blame him, but because he wouldn't act like a doll and let her set him up just so, he was disqualified for "bad temperament".


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OH wow, I didn't know this Sorrai about your boy..which one was it? I thought the rat was handled but then set down and allowed a natural stance? Wouldn't this show off his ideal conformation better? I have heard some judging horror stories with all types of animals. Its a very relative thing, as to who will win...depends on who is the judge and what their preferences are and what affiliations they have


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> OH wow, I didn't know this Sorrai about your boy..which one was it? I thought the rat was handled but then set down and allowed a natural stance? Wouldn't this show off his ideal conformation better? I have heard some judging horror stories with all types of animals. Its a very relative thing, as to who will win...depends on who is the judge and what their preferences are and what affiliations they have


This was Tierney, one of the boys that died after a show while in quarantine.  (One of the reasons I no longer show.... regardless whether YOU quarantine, you have to trust that EVERYONE else in attendance is as well, and if ONE person doesn't, all of the animals are at risk. It just isn't worth it to me.)
A natural stance would be ideal, but some judges want to set up the rats, just like dogs, horses, rabbits, or other animals are set up. I think its rather stupid really... I suppose you can train a rat to take up the stance and hold it, but when shows drag on for 8 or more hours, the animals are going to be tired and stressed and may not want to cooperate even if they are trained to do so! And training them is no guarantee that's what the next judge will want, so what's the point anyways? I used to be in support of rat shows, but I've seen and heard of too many things over the years. Now I tend to be very critical of them, and think they are rather pointless. Some shows are really nothing more than little beauty pageants for some people to pump themselves up and feel better about themselves all in the name of a $0.05 ribbon... Yeah, I know that sounds mean, but honestly that's what I've seen at some. Can't speak for all, but a few out there are like that.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Oh I remember Tierney, that was awful


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## ReBel*AnGeL* (Feb 10, 2010)

So sorry for ur loss Sorraia!


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

http://www.evergreenrattery.com/micajezebel.htm

I remember when sifting through, The Virtual Mentor, and a few other articles and things that you shouldn't breed two rats together that share the same problems (pinchy nose, tiny ears, etc). I just thought that these two look like exact opposites, it's pretty funny. Not bringing this up to advertise just thought I'd share.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm not sure if you've gotten to the part in some of those articles where you shouldn't breed two opposite extremes either in the hopes of evening out a trait.

To correct a long head you wouldn't breed it to a rat with a very short head, that would just introduce both issues into your line. You would ideally breed it to a rat with a good head.

It's hard to tell from pictures because the angle of rat can play tricks on you, but that doe does appear to have a longer and narrower head then is ideal but the buck's head looks better (but still looks too long for my taste) so just based on the two pictures of the parents this seems to be a reasonable pairing assuming the rats have exceptional health and temperament otherwise.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Sorry, I have terrible memory and I tend to only remember portions of what I read. lol
I'll just have to re-read and make sure I didn't miss anything else. :


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