# Double Oops!



## Marilynx (Jun 1, 2015)

So. I lost the last of my first eight rats about five weeks ago. (She was three years and five months old. She had a stroke, and was determinedly battling her way back to mobility. But it was not to be. I was cuddling her in my lap, and she stiffened, and then relaxed, and was gone. The last thing she did was wrap her paws around my fingers.)A friend of mine has a number of Snow's descendents -- I worked with her breeder until the breeder moved too far away. My friend had an "oops" litter -- she was at a show, and one of her "helpers" put one of the males in the females' main cage.I took four of the girls from that litter. (She's probably lucky she only had one oops from that!)Except.... Smudge is not SHE, but a late-blooming HE, and has apparently knocked up all three of his sisters. He is now in a separate cage by himself, giving me very sad looks like, "What did I do wrong?" He will be going back to live with his brothers as soon as I can get across the river. I do wish I had room for a second CND for males, because he's SUCH a sweet heart!Meanwhile, Faline has given birth to six pups. They were apparently born while I was out of town at a dog show because I was greeted by chirpings when I came back. Foolish me! It never occurred to me to think of baby rats! After all, I have all girls, right? I just thought the new Girls were glad to see me, because they've chirped at me before.Yesterday, I came in to give everyone some fresh veggies (they've been getting extra since they didn't get any over the two days I was gone, and letting me know in no uncertain terms about it.) and looked down, and here were the six. Their eyes aren't open, but they have darkening on their skin indicating markings when they get fur, so I'm guessing they are 7-8 days old.My krewe get Oxbow Regal Rat, water, and an assortment of mixed veggies, including romaine lettuce plus sunflower sprouts and mixed lentil sprouts.I'm pretty sure that Dara and Fawn are also pregnant.I do have three extra smallish cages (https://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=29834) which I usually use for putting the girls in when I am cleaning the main cage. I also use it to keep younglings in until they are big enough to hold their own against their seniors.Should each of my young mothers have a separate cage once Smudge goes back to his brothers?I'm not sure how to provide water for the pups once they start moving around. If I put a dish in, the adult(s) will walk through it and make it filthy, but there is no way to put the spout of a bottle low enough for the pups to reach it in this type of cage.What additional food should the moms be getting?(I should note that I've been giving them cheese and yogurt along with their veggies and Oxbow.)What kind of food should I put in for when the pups start eating solid food?AND, when the pups are scuttling around, can I put a couple moms back together so I have a cage to put the males in when I am able to separate them? I'll buy another cage if I have to, but since I am seriously NOT planning on making "oops" litters a regular thing, I'd rather spent the $30 plus shipping on toys and treats for my krewe.I have not tried to sex the pups yet, but there's one that I am PRAYING is a female. It looks like the pup will have a charcoal hood with a small white blaze.... just like her great-great however many great-grandma, Mistress Snow. So maybe this oops was meant to be. Snow coming back to me.


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## Marilynx (Jun 1, 2015)

So, no reply.Unintended litter(s) became even more interesting on 19 October. I came in to give my Moms some extra fresh food and found my maternity cage overdumped on the floor. Rats and babies missing. (My husband's eyesight is not good. I believe he went in the rat room for something, bumped the cage and pushed it partially off the table, and then when ratties were bouncing, it overturned and scared the bejaysus out of them.)One of the Moms, Faline, came to me at once. She was quite willing to abandon her litter of 6 in exchange for fresh food and cuddling. Dara and Fawn were not. They'd hidden all 22 of the babies. Somewhere in my living room. Dara came out and came to me and demanded food. "DO you know what it's like, feeding 22?" I fed her, and with great reluctance, let her go again. She did let me know where the babies were, but it took 3 days before I could get a friend over to help me move the books on 2 7' high book cases, and move them and 3 filing cabinets to get to them. We rescued all 22, and Dara. No sign of Fawn. Dara, bless her, is taking care of all the babies because Faline apparently lost her milk due to the delay in retrieving the babies.Fawn is still SOMEWHERE in the living room. We have a live trap, and have been baiting it, but the wretched girl is managing to somehow get into the trap, retrieve the food and get some water, and sneak out again without triggering it. I suspect she has also lost her milk by now.The older 6 babies are probably about 3 weeks old. They think cheese, and oatmeal are delicious. They're not much interested in rat chow. They're willing to sample raw veggies. I'm trying to figure out what else I can offer them to help take some of the burden off Dara. It's clear that the other 16 aren't growing as fast, and that worries me. I've checked out http://www.afrma.org/sexing101.htm for sexing because I know I'm going to need to separate the males of the first litter out pretty soon -- but I don't want to deprive them of their Mom too soon. I also don't want any more Oops.Any help?


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## Vampiric Conure (Aug 17, 2018)

Yeeek @ the cage being overturned and rats missing :-O !! I would keep up the food you've been offering, especially yogurt, until the babies are weaned. Weaning should happen at the 4 and a half week mark. Some people will say five weeks, but I prefer catching them a touch sooner to insure there's no oops litters.Then they need to be separated into male and females, as you pretty much know  

As for baiting the trap - have you tried peanut butter? It's sticky enough that they have to work to get it out and might set off the trap because they can't just steal it and run.


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## Marilynx (Jun 1, 2015)

Vampiric Conure said:


> Yeeek @ the cage being overturned and rats missing :-O !! I would keep up the food you've been offering, especially yogurt, until the babies are weaned. Weaning should happen at the 4 and a half week mark. Some people will say five weeks, but I prefer catching them a touch sooner to insure there's no oops litters.Then they need to be separated into male and females, as you pretty much know


Yeah. Friday the 19th. Alarm went off at 5:30. I crawled out of bed to go in and give some extra fresh food to my unexpected Moms because we were going to be at a dog show all day, and they couldn't summon me with chirps if they needed something. (No, my rats do NOT have their own cell phone!)Turned the corner and started to unlatch the gate and.... there was the overturned cage and no sign of Moms or babies.Talk about freaking out. Because my living room is a Grade A disaster. Toooo many hiding places.


> As for baiting the trap - have you tried peanut butter? It's sticky enough that they have to work to get it out and might set off the trap because they can't just steal it and run.


 I haven't tried peanut butter. For some reason, I had it in my head that nut butters weren't good for ratties because they could choke on it. Planning to put a string through a carrot piece and tie it to the trap trigger. I'm betting Fawn has lost her milk by now, so my poor Dara is caring for all 22 babies by herself. Faline is helping wash them, but she lost *her* milk when she came to me, and then it took us 5 days to get the book cases and filing cabinets moved so we could recapture the babies and Dara.


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## Vampiric Conure (Aug 17, 2018)

I hear ya on the grade A disaster area. My bird room looks like a bird cage exploded, with bird seed and paper everywhere. Add in a 7 month old puppy who demolishes everything and... yeah. I hear ya, LMAO! 

As for the peanut butter - you probably wouldn't need a whole lot of it, just a bit smeared on the trigger  . Either way, the carrot should work. I wish you luck on that front ! 

It's a pity they lost their milk. Twenty babes are a lot for one mom to nurse! She needs an award for being patient enough to handle all of them!


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## Marilynx (Jun 1, 2015)

I had put a rattie X-pen across the door to the living room in addition to the gate to keep the dogs out. It wouldn't have stopped a determined rat, but with food and water inside, I kept my fingers crossed that it would dissuade them from coming out to explore -- because I know my dogs, and my fear was that if one came out, the dogs would kill it if they found it and I wasn't there.We managed to get all the babies. They had them in two nests, one under the bookcase (yes, we got to unload the entire 7' tall book case and move it) and one under one of the three filing cabinets, the bottom drawer of which was mostly empty and so was removable. We also caught the second Mom, Dara. No sign of Fawn, the third mom. I got a live trap and put it where the open cage had been, with the food and water inside.So, Faline had lost her milk, and poor Dara ended up nursing all 19 babies by herself. Needless to say, she was going through food and water like crazy. She got yogurt, fresh veggies, oatmeal, anything I could think of. Pecans, Cheese. A chicken wing. Fawn ended up loose for more than ten days. She figured out how to sneak into the cage, get food and water, and get out without tripping the trap. She would come out and take food from my hand, but would not let me pick her up. I finally got a smaller cage, and caught her. In the mean time, I bought another CND and set it up as two cages, with heavy bins between them. So she at least went back to a more reasonably sized enclosure. And a running wheel. With the help of a lady who has been breeding rats for 29 years, and a Facebook video call, I was able to cross-check my separation by the sexes. I only made two errors!Babies are now about 7 weeks old. And my Snow's blood line came through: there is one girl and one boy who look just like their great-great-great grandma!All babies will have homes after I get back from a dog show next week. This was one Adventure in Rat Keeping I could have done without! I have found some chewed books, but, thank ghu, no clewed electrical wires. They didn't get the drapes, though!


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