# Why do rats have to have such short lives?



## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

They're such wonderful creatures and yet anything could go wrong at any moment, they die after only 2-4 years, they just aren't here long enough. Why? I've just been thinking about this, and about Klardae, lately.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

It's a shame they have such short lifespans, we just have to make sure they're happy lives . What is the oldest age people's rats have reached out of interest?


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

The oldest rat EVER out of all rats anyone's ever owned was 7, I think.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, the scientific explanation would be that rats breed quickly and are not intelligent as us, and they're bodies aren't set up for living long lives, and only to simply keep the population going by breeding out of control. 
It sucks that their little lives have to be so short.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

They're plenty intelligent. Just as intelligent as we are.

Trust me. I've seen it.

And humans are only here to reproduce just like anything else. Our bodies are equipped PRIMARILY to reproduce.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> The oldest rat EVER out of all rats anyone's ever owned was 7, I think.


Wow, 7


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, I'm religious, and in my religion, we are here to serve God, not the planet. 
And not to sound rude, but we are FAR more intelligent than they. (Not to dismiss their own intelligence)

I hate that they have to leave us this early, just as much as you do.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

We are not more intelligent than any other creature on this planet. We destroy the planet... no other creature has EVER done that.

ETS: I'm Atheist, and I don't think that you should even mention religion here... I have a few choice words to say about that too... but I won't, I know better.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

OK, I'm not going to argue with anybody. We do destroy the planet, I will admit that. But if you would really want to get down to it, our cerebrums and cerebellums are FAR more advanced and skilled and plain out intelligent.
I don;t want to make anyone mad, so that's the last thing I will say about it, I promise. Feel free to disagree.     
P.S. I think your avatar is UBER cute! Is it your rat?


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

It's Zinc. But I don't think I'd see Zinc grieving EVERY SINGLE DAY about Klardae if all she cared about was the next meal she'd eat and the next male she'd meet.

Prove it. PROVE to me, TANGIBLE evidence, that they are not as smart as us, and I will believe you.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I never said that animals couldn't love, or grieve. I too, have seen animals grieve over the loss of a friend. Another example for instance, is the love from a momma and her bubs, but that's also called maternal instinct. 
I didn't mean to make our rats seem like zombies. I love watching my boys figure ouot how to escape their play pen, and get into the yoggie bag, etc. lol.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

Only the good die young?!

I don't know. It is unfortunate how short pet life spans can be compared to ours.

*snugs Starbuck, who is actually currently down her shirt and chewing on her navel ring...*


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I just think my rats are as smart as me. And my dog, and my cat, and the muskrat or whatever it is living by the pond...


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

> Feel free to disagree. Smile Smile Smile Smile


I completely respect that!


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## Skitza (May 18, 2008)

Its all apart of God's wonderful plan, and he created ratties so only he knows.


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

if that was god's plan, i think it's pretty stupid. why would someone make one animal live longer than another? my rats enjoy life as much as a person, why shouldn't they live as long?


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm ATHEIST

I don't want to hear about God


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh, OK. Then I will only respond to MariHxc. God did that, because he is God, and he is all knowing. You don;t have to believe in God, but the Truth is written in everyone's heart, and what Christians believe is that on judgment day, every tounge will speak and admit that God is God. If God is all knowing (which, yes, means he knows more than us), then I just trust him that he knows what he's doing. God loves all his creatures, after all, he did create every single one of them. But he also created man to clearly be distinguished as dominant, and even gave his son to die for us, because he loves us that much! I don't know about you, but in a world as crappy as this one, knowing there is someone who loves and cares for me like that, is purdy awesome.

That's the only way I could think of to answer your question. 
I also ask that we all be mature, and respect each others veiws on things (I wont say your wrong, if you don;t say that I am).


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

P.S. I doesn't make sense that we got here on our own. We CAN'T do that. We aren't capable, and no matter ow far back you trace things, there always has to be a beginning point and a creator of the events. 
AGAIN, just my opinion.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

So if dogs were dominant instead of humans would you still say the same thing?


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

2boysloose said:


> P.S. I doesn't make sense that we got here on our own. We CAN'T do that. We aren't capable, and no matter ow far back you trace things, there always has to be a beginning point and a creator of the events.
> AGAIN, just my opinion.



but you weren't here around that time... so how would you know? how do we know that some higher being just poofed us here?

and why would there be evidence of evolution if it didn't happen?


but anyway... back on topic. i agree. but maybe one of my boys will beat the record for longest living rat


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Yep. My faith in God is solid. How I take what you asked me, yes. There are animals that can dominate over us and hurt us. But yes, I stand by what I said. I believe God exists because I have literally felt him with me, and you wouldn't understand the feeling unless you've had it happen to you, but it's over whelming.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

I believe that every creature has it's own specialized intelligence for the task it's meant to do. You cannot compare apples and pears.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Evolution is real. And believe it or not, but did you know there just as much physical proof that Christ walked this earth, as there is proof for evolution. 
Your correct in saying I wasn't there, but you don't seem to understand that God was. He didn't poof us here either. He created the earth and all that is in it in 6 days, and on the seventh day, he rested, which is reserved as the holy day (Sunday, when people go to church), and has been reserved for thousand of years.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

begoodtoanimals: that was very well said!


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

2boysloose said:


> Evolution is real. And believe it or not, but did you know there just as much physical proof that Christ walked this earth, as there is proof for evolution.
> Your correct in saying I wasn't there, but you don't seem to understand that God was. He didn't poof us here either. He created the earth and all that is in it in 6 days, and on the seventh day, he rested, which is reserved as the holy day (Sunday, when people go to church), and has been reserved for thousand of years.


i was raised catholic.. i know the story...


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

OK, then why did you ask?


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)




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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I understand. This seems to happen alot, lol.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

:lol: yeah Kathleen I was just gonna say we've gone a bit off topic too


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

that's why i said back to the topic.. i wasn't expecting anyone to reply to what i said.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

OMG you made me LOL


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

OK, then I'm sorry for replying to your question.  I'm not being sarcastic, either. 
I wish my squishy guys could live forever.... and in me they will.  (cheesy, I know, it's just something I've heard to cheer people up).


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

And another thing, I'm sorry if I peeved anyone off with the whole thing.


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

i've only lost one rat, and he was just barely over 2. and that was WAY too soon.
i'm hoping the boys i have now will live much longer than he did.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

My first two rats so haven't lost any yet, although it is inevitable


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I haven't lost any ratties yet....but hamster, yeah, if that counts.


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

I haven't lost any animals due to old age yet. I'm scared to.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

So am I.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

Instead of worrying about their death, you are better off if you enjoy their lives.

I once read a saying from a child who said that he knew why dog or rats (can't remember which) lived such short lives. " It's because they don't have to learn how to love anymore.


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

Awwww!!!! Thats really cute. I like that. I'm not too worried about them dying, I just don't want to go through it. but I believe I have awhile. I am expecting my guinea pigs to be around for atleast 2 more years. And my rats for atleast 2 also actually.


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

aw, that quote's cute


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

I had a rat that lived to be six once... amazing!

-Rozaylia


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## AlienMando (Jan 19, 2008)

For rats that live into older than usual age, what kind of things have you all experienced?

On another board, someones rat is well into his 5th year and its starting to loose its fur density. Someone responded that its probably due to its age, that they kind of start loosing fur.

Is that true?


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

SIX?! Wow. I'm hoping Tommy lives that long, he's just too cute.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Think of it this way, on average a rats immune system (that has been bombarded/attacked by myco all its life) starts to wear down (just like people). They take longer to heal, they might get a bit of middle-aged spread, their organs stop functioning as well and they might start showing signs of illness. By 2 most rats are getting closer to the end of their lifespan. But there are ones that make it well past 2ish. I have had 3 rats make it to 38 months, 1 to 37 months, and 4 to 3 yrs old.  ALL rescues, just strong healthy rats with better genes and possibly better care.

Diet, exercise, mental health are all things that can help your rat live longer, but if they are genetically predisposed to die young you cannot stop the body aging.

Typical signs of aging are..the fur becomes coarser, and may thin out (esp. on rexes), they are walking flat footed (with very little spring to their step if any), and when sitting often stick those hind feet in front and beside themselves and actually sit on their butt. Some rats may experience spinal nerve degeneration where they start to lose mobility in their hindquarters (more males than females but happens to both) and some may end up paralysed (but often are still happy rats that just need a bit more help/care). Tumours often show up later in life. Respiratory issues, other illnesses. With males you may have to check for penis plugs every day if they are unable to due to disability. If they are getting thinner (unable to efficiently process their food anymore) you will need to supplement their diet to help slow the weight loss. Older rats are actually my favourite, I call it their Twilight, and they are usually very appreciative of the care and love they receive.


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## myboys2 (Jul 7, 2008)

About five years ago while working for a local Humane Society, one of our volunteers came in with a PEW he had found on an off-ramp on a very busy highway. He originally thought it was a baby possum (it was dark outside) but when he stopped he realized it was a rattie! Anyway, he brought him in, a sneezing mess, bum leg (looked like it had been broken at one time), and not too friendly. We treated him with Baytril for a week and then he was to be put down. I decided to take him home to let him live out his (what I thought would be) last few weeks/months. He seemed and looked very old already.

He was very active and snuck out of his cage for days at a time, camping out in my hall closet or under the stove and then would find his way back to his cage. I always just let him be because I just wanted him to be happy. He lived with us another three years before he quietly passed. I was amazed how long he lived! He had to be at least five when he died and was fairly active up to the last day. 

ugh, I miss him and that's been two years ago! Anyway, he lived a very long time and now he's cremated and sitting on my bookshelf.


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## kimby37 (May 6, 2008)

You never have enough time with the pets you love. I had to put my 21 year old cat to sleep. I watched him being born and I watched him die. If he had lived for another 21 years it wouldn't have been long enough. All the more reason to treasure our furry loved ones and make sure that they have the best lives that we can give them. Every day is precious and all we can do when they're gone is to hold on to our happy memories and to take comfort in whatever we can, be it thoughts of Heaven or eternal sleep or whatever it is that gets you through the grief.


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## clarry (May 19, 2008)

I have been asking the same question myself recently. I am also an atheist, and whilst I do not personally agree that we are the most intelligent creatures, perhaps we have created a lot of things such as technology which claim to have bought the world forward, we solely have managed to ruin natures beauties however i do agree that biologically rats bodies are meant to reproduce which is why they die younger. My boyfriend explained this to me in a long winded biological detail however i stil argue...'but most of the time my rat seems just as intelligent if not more than my cat...but cats can live to 21 why do rats only live to two?' I can understand hamsters only living two years, not that i dont like them but, you know the personality just isnt there. My argument is that their brain just doesnt fit their body, and however rats entered the world, be it god or evolution, it somehow went a bit wrong and that their brains were meant to be in a larger creature with the capacity to live longer.
This is only my theory


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## Magpie (Mar 30, 2008)

For my little bit of input, I believe that all living beings are equal. Humans simply have the ability to see further into things, our thought patters are somewhat more complex. What differs animals(including humans) from plants is that ALL animals can learn, understand, feel emotion and to at least some degree feel compassion. Living beings have the ability to think and reason. Yes, humans can show it more effectively through speech and 'opposable thumbs'P), but it's there in other species nonetheless- I've seen it myself on many an occasion.

Anyway, yes... Not getting involved here. I must admit, it is a shame that our little friends are taken so young, but if you think about it we humans have exceptionally long lifespans anyway, especially in comparison to rats- we should use that time to give any many he best lives possible ^_^


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## clarry (May 19, 2008)

I completely agree, i gave just had a MASSIVE discussion with my boyfriend (envoked by this thread) of how we are no better or worse than other species, we are equal only we have different skills that equip us to continue to live. I have never had an animal die of old age, I had a cat go missing, which broke my heart, and a premature rabbit death (2) whom I was very close to, he died when we went away and put him in an animal home, it was only a week but we broke his heart and when we came back he wasnt the same. Besides that, we had been away and left him b4 but he managed to catch fleas this time due to what we believe was cats roaming the place (well we saw it when we came back), that was hard. I now have an 8 y/o cat who will absolutely kill me when he dies, but i cant think about that, i will just anjoy the time we have together and go an squish him 
xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

I wish ratties lived longer too. I guess it isn't always intelligence that tells the body how long it will live... I haven't been able to come up with an explanation for why ratties have such short lives, but I have decided that I don't really want to know. 

I am just going to enjoy each moment I have with my little friends. It always hurts when they pass. I've had over forty rats over the last 22 years... and it is always HUGELY painful when they pass. They are like my children, my best little companions. 

However, living with rats is always worth it to me because they are so so so so intelligent and wonderful. I feel that I can learn a lot about my own soul from them.

-Rozaylia


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## zimmyzam (Sep 9, 2007)

Back on topic at last 

My input is that nothing happens on accident- there's a reason rats die so young compared to humans.

All I know is, it's really going to suck when my babies have to go, too.


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## madonnaswimmer (Jul 31, 2007)

Indigo_Paradox said:


> I had a rat that lived to be six once... amazing!
> 
> -Rozaylia


JJust out of curiosity, what was his life like, healthwise? Was he just naturally healthy for that long or did he almost die a few times but you brought him back?

Six is nothing short of amazing!


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

She just lived a really long time. She was basically healthy, but had a tumor towards the end. Her name was Snowball, and was a PEW.

I have some old photos of her I should scan. 

I have to get around to posting photos of my current bunch as well... 

-Rozaylia


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

begoodtoanimals: that cute story is one of a dog -- a family invited a veterinarian into their home to help their dog towards his final resting state, and their 4-year-old son was present. after they put the dog to sleep, they mused about why animals don't live as long as we do, whereas the boy replied: "we are here to learn how to love each other, but animals already know how to do that, so they don't have to stay as long" *gah* such a tear-jerker when you read the story with all the perfect wordings and such. but that's pretty much my adopted personal stance on the whole question.


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

oh yeah i've also heard that every animal, regardless of what it is, lives to have an average of a billion heartbeats. smaller animals with faster heartrates tend to live shorter lives, whereas larger animals with slower heartrates live longer lives, if also less exciting ones. this is only not true for humans, who have technologically and nutritionally, etc enhanced our average lifespans.


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## Nezumi (Jul 12, 2008)

I've wondered why rats have such short lives also. It's very sad.  But at least we have them for the time we do!  I wonder if different subspecies live longer than others?


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

there aren't really different subspecies of our domestic rat. or rather, i suppose our pet rats *are* the subspecies. but no, they don't really. rats from quality breeders tend to live longer, healthier lives, so we should support that overall cause and buy from breeders!  not that any of mine came from a breeder, but none of mine have left me yet either. </3


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## Nezumi (Jul 12, 2008)

OnlyOno said:


> there aren't really different subspecies of our domestic rat. or rather, i suppose our pet rats *are* the subspecies. but no, they don't really. rats from quality breeders tend to live longer, healthier lives, so we should support that overall cause and buy from breeders!  not that any of mine came from a breeder, but none of mine have left me yet either. </3


I just wondered because I got my rats from Petsmart (where they know absolutely nothing about how to take care of rats), and my boys are both "dumbo rats." They also had "fancy" rats.  Neither of my rats came from a breeder either. Next time I get rats I am going to try and find a breeder though. i'd prefer to get females, since they seem to be able to get along much better and with less fighting. Luckily my two rats have at least another year left to live.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Dumbo rats are fancy rats XD


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## Nezumi (Jul 12, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> Dumbo rats are fancy rats XD


The Petsmart near me must not be too smart. XD They had them listed as two sepparate kinds. I read both of the things they had about the rats, but it didn't mention that fancy and dumbo were the same kind. 


I must really be a newbie.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

All rats are the same species, domestic-wise. Rattus norvegicus, the Norway or Brown Rat.


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## Nezumi (Jul 12, 2008)

No wonder all of them are so adorable!


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't like it when people put human emotions on animal behaviour (I've forgotten the scientific term for this). Rat's don't feel fear, love, hate, etc in the same way that we do. I'm not saying they are completely void of emotion, in fact quite the opposite, but it is not HUMAN emotion. They do not feel 'fear', they feel the animal equivalent of fear. They don't even understand the human concept of fear, and we can never clearly understand their emotions, because our human perspective is inescapable. That's one of the first things you learn studying biology. It's just bad practice to say the animal is 'afraid' or 'upset', unless for convenience, because we're assuming that animals experience things the same way as humans, which we could never truly know.

Also, rats are very intelligent creatures, no doubt. However, there are scientific reasons why we are considered smarter than them. It's got nothing to do with the fact that we can, say, solve algebraic equations and rats can't. It's more to do with the differnces in our levels of conciousness and things of that nature. The question of whether or not this means they are less significant than us has been seriously debated for decades.

Just thought I'd add that to the thread. Sorry if it's too off topic.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Yes, and you know how fear feels to your rats... how...?


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

*pops in*



> I don't like it when people put human emotions on animal behaviour (I've forgotten the scientific term for this).


Anthropomorphism.

*pops out*


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

Personally,
I feel that our intelligence is different than rats, but not necessarily more.

I know that there are scientific experiments that say humans are smarter... but science is a human-created tool.

I have always thought that animals have a certain wisdom to them because they don't seem to have the desire to manipulate the world in the way human kind has done.

But yes, it's true that we really have no way to interpret *what* that means. Rats may indeed experience things completely differently from us.

And I believe humans are animals too... And besides, on a DNA level rats are not that different from humans; one reason why they are experimented upon so much.

-Rozaylia


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> Yes, and you know how fear feels to your rats... how...?


But, I don't know how 'fear' feels to my rats. I mentioned that sometimes it is convenient to use words like 'fear' to describe what we assume to be the animal equivalent of 'fear'. There's no way I could appreciate what 'fear' feels like to my rats...how can I even be sure my rats experience 'fear'? The whole idea of 'fear' is completely human based, and a perfect example of my previous point, that our human perspective is inescapable. We can't completely step outside of ourselves and be non-human when discussing or considering this issue, because everything is seen through human eyes (even on a subconcious level). Therefore, it is natural to try and use human experiences to describe behavioural phenomena in animals, because we have no other point of reference.


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

Indigo_Paradox said:


> And I believe humans are animals too... And besides, on a DNA level rats are not that different from humans; one reason why they are experimented upon so much.
> 
> -Rozaylia


We are animals, and yes it's true that in terms of genetics they aren't too different. But the difference between hydrogen chloride and water is only one element, and consider how much their properties differ. My point is, the most minute change in genetic information can produce severely different outcomes (hence most of the genetic diseases in humans).

I'm not trying to be all technical and annoying, I guess I just reason from a scientific perspective (I'm a geek :roll: ). I have no problem with people having different opinions, everyone has a right to disagree. I'm just trying to explain it from my perspective, but I appreciate not everyone will agree with me.


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

To be honest I'm a geek as well... a college educated one at that (perhaps you are too), but I also know there are things that are unexplainable. So just because I have chosen to take a certain stance does not mean I haven't reasoned it out from a scientific perspective.

I have thought about it that way, and I've still chosen to believe what I do about animals because of other experiences I've had in my lifetime.

Anyhoo, I'm not going to get into it too much, as I also believe it's okay to disagree with each other, but please don't assume that just because someone thinks a certain way that they have not done their research or don't have the same knowledge base to draw from.

-Rozaylia


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

Haha, yes, I'm studying Biomedical science (hence my science-mad brain). That's cool, I wasn't questioning anyone's level of education or anything.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

So you're telling my that rats don't get scared? Wow.


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

collisiontheory89 said:


> Haha, yes, I'm studying Biomedical science (hence my science-mad brain). That's cool, I wasn't questioning anyone's level of education or anything.


Cool! I studied nursing and biology in school. I can't work as a nurse anymore because my back is really screwed up (car accident) so now I work as a web designer... go figure.

But anyhoo, that's neat that you are studying biomedical science! Good for you! My husband has a degree in Psycho-biology.

-Rozaylia


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

I wonder how stupid humans look like to animals. We are the ones destroying everyone's world. If that's intelligence....... then animals must be brilliant, which I think they are.
And maybe it's true what that little boy said: the more you need to learn the longer you will have to live.


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## madonnaswimmer (Jul 31, 2007)

OnlyOno said:


> oh yeah i've also heard that every animal, regardless of what it is, lives to have an average of a billion heartbeats. smaller animals with faster heartrates tend to live shorter lives, whereas larger animals with slower heartrates live longer lives, if also less exciting ones. this is only not true for humans, who have technologically and nutritionally, etc enhanced our average lifespans.


that can't possibly be true, because then exercising would be bad for you and being a lazy couch potato (human or dog, cat, etc) would be better because you'd keep your heart rate down all the time.


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## PiggieRats (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm not quite religious, but I do believe animals that live shorter life spans could in a way be life's way of showing us how to live a little better. Some animals show us caution, fun, love, sadness, etc.

And honestly, intelligence comes in many packages. And a lot of people confuse intelligence with common sense. Common sense would say that humans should PRESERVE, not destroy the planet. Most animals live in balance with the world. In a way, we're kind of the embarrassment of the planet.

But I will leave a quote from the comic "For Better or for Worse": "I never thought a heart that big could ever stop beating."


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## Caity (Apr 1, 2008)

I don't know if anyone addressed this already, because I am lazy and did not want to read 2boysloose's endless regurgitations about the Good Lawd, sorry.

KayRatz, one could say that it is equally unfounded as to whether rats/cats/whatever ARE in fact just as smart as humans. Beyond spatial reasoning and the ability to enjoy company of the same or other species/be sad/peeved/etc, which are all observable abilities, we haven't exactly perfected decoding series of high pitched squeaks, barks, and meows and so we cannot fully observe the capacity of other animals' minds. If I had to venture a guess I would say that my cats do not have discourses as to whether the end of government programs justifies the means of coercive taxation, or know how to solve for X.

As for the fact that animals are not senselessly slaughtering one another, well...the very remarkable thing about humans that we suppose distinguishes us from other animals...reason, extremely complex emotions and thoughts, becomes a pitfall for the species when subjected to manipulation and abuse. We have an unsurpassed capacity for excellence and with that, we are way more vulnerable to being effed in the head, if that makes sense.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Just because my rat cannot solve for X does not make it any less ntelligent. It has not been taught. It also cannot read, and, lacking opposable thumbs, can not write, either. It's also probably hard put to learn my language, just as it's difficult for you to learn, say, Spanish.


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## tdnrat (Jul 23, 2008)

Rats are as smart as humans. Let it be known. :|
And no, think the oldest rat was about 12. Not kidding, it was a big span of life!
My oldest rat was 6, so I'd be suprised if the oldest EVER were to be 7,


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, LOL


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## tdnrat (Jul 23, 2008)

Um, not that time. :lol:
:| But it's rare, I'm usually sarcastic. And my face is like... :|


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

madonnaswimmer said:


> that can't possibly be true, because then exercising would be bad for you and being a lazy couch potato (human or dog, cat, etc) would be better because you'd keep your heart rate down all the time.


It actually would make sense, the healthier you are the slower your at-rest heart rate is. Overweight people who don't exercise as much have faster heart rates than people who do cardio regularly.


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## Caity (Apr 1, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> Just because my rat cannot solve for X does not make it any less ntelligent. It has not been taught. It also cannot read, and, lacking opposable thumbs, can not write, either. It's also probably hard put to learn my language, just as it's difficult for you to learn, say, Spanish.


Sure.
But we KNOW things by observing them with the senses, we don't KNOW that something is true because it simply could be and because there is no reason it is absolutely impossible.

What I'm observing is my cat just bumped his head on the wall, and now he is trying to bat at a fly that is outside a window. So much for even having the spatial reasoning.


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## areoseek (Feb 17, 2008)

i think ill just say, i wish they would live longer, and the eldest ive had was 5



i dont wanna get involved.. lol


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## Caity (Apr 1, 2008)

I'll comment further to say...we know that rats exhibit great problem solving skills, we've seen this. I guess I would be more convinced if there were evidence of the use of tools, baiting prey, etc. Opposable thumbs aren't necessary for this. There is a pelican that picks up dropped bread crumbs and drops it in the water so that fish will come to the surface, then dives to collect them. This is a rather advanced form of hunting IMO. Also where are the indicators of sentience, ethics, insight, do they recognize themselves in the mirror, and so on?


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

I just wanted to put this quote I found in here to help out

I know of someone who had a rat for 6 years. He claimed the reason why his rodent lived so long was because he fed his guy blueberries every day. Blueberries are high in cancer fighting compounds, which science has proven.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Caity said:


> I'll comment further to say...we know that rats exhibit great problem solving skills, we've seen this. I guess I would be more convinced if there were evidence of the use of tools, baiting prey, etc. Opposable thumbs aren't necessary for this. There is a pelican that picks up dropped bread crumbs and drops it in the water so that fish will come to the surface, then dives to collect them. This is a rather advanced form of hunting IMO. Also where are the indicators of sentience, ethics, insight, do they recognize themselves in the mirror, and so on?


I heard a story of wild rats that would run out onto a busy highway when a cat chased them. the cat would get hit but the rats were small enough that the cars just went over them.


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## areoseek (Feb 17, 2008)

Smart rats.. sorta


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

PiggieRats said:


> I'm not quite religious, but I do believe animals that live shorter life spans could in a way be life's way of showing us how to live a little better. Some animals show us caution, fun, love, sadness, etc.
> 
> And honestly, intelligence comes in many packages. And a lot of people confuse intelligence with common sense. Common sense would say that humans should PRESERVE, not destroy the planet. Most animals live in balance with the world. In a way, we're kind of the embarrassment of the planet.
> 
> But I will leave a quote from the comic "For Better or for Worse": "I never thought a heart that big could ever stop beating."


I remember that comic. It ran shortly after our lab, Brandy passed. I loved the tribute to a beloved family member.



> I don't know if anyone addressed this already, because I am lazy and did not want to read 2boysloose's endless regurgitations about the Good Lawd, sorry.


IMHO, that was a cruel and unnecessary comment. If you don't agree with a poster, do what I do and simply skip their posts. It's pretty easy to see who's "talking" with the avies and signatures. 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## Caity (Apr 1, 2008)

You're right, that was pretty aggressive. Guess I need to not be such a grump after work.


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## Catherine (Jul 28, 2008)

It's God's fault.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes it is, but He has His reasons. (And no, I'm not gonna start again)


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## Catherine (Jul 28, 2008)

Good point you made there, 2boysloose


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## madonnaswimmer (Jul 31, 2007)

Vixie said:


> madonnaswimmer said:
> 
> 
> > that can't possibly be true, because then exercising would be bad for you and being a lazy couch potato (human or dog, cat, etc) would be better because you'd keep your heart rate down all the time.
> ...


while that is true to an extent, if you think about a healthy person who only exercises for 30 minutes 3 times a week (which would keep them healthy and their heart rate wouldn't rise whenever they stood up like an obese person's HR would), and then compare them to someone who runs 5 miles a day, eventually they would use up all of their heartbeats at a really early age and just die. Along the same guidelines, then having your heart rate increase from watching scary movies and going on roller coasters would make you die sooner, since increasing your heart rate from those things (without exercise) doesn't make you healthier.

Anyway, way off topic, sorry!


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## Katie_Griffin (Jul 2, 2008)

I so understand what you mean I lost my first ever rat Darcy not so long ago to a stroke.
I had to put my fellings aside and think of her needs and so I got her put to sleep. 
I think of her everynight befor I fall to sleep.

Sometimes I think us rattie heads are made getting somthing that is so loving and is almost like a dog when we now that they only live up to 3 years.

anyway just to say thanks to everyone who gave me a clear head over the time she was ill.

I now its not the right topic but she is buried under my bedroom window with two Lavender plants either side so when I am taking care of the plants its like im taking care of her.

anyway heres a pic thank you all again.


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## kalamazoo (Jul 25, 2008)

That's a beautiful memorial for Darcy. I like what you said about tending to the flowers being like caring for her. I'm glad that you had the courage to make the best decision for her at the time. 

Gee willickers, rattie heaven must be a splendid place. It can only be better for species with shorter lives. Logically of course.


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## Gary26Uk (Oct 2, 2007)

Its to do with metabolism amongst other things.Their little hearts and other organs work alot faster than ours do , therefore they have shorter life spans.

On average a mouses heart beats 500 times per minute

A humans beats 70 times per minute

A tortoises heart beats 30 times per minute.

Usually , the slower the heart rate the longer the lifespan.


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