# Accidental mouse litter



## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

PetSmart was having a huge sale a few weeks ago around me so I picked up a good mouse cage/tank and a couple of so called 'feeder' rats - two females since I know mixing of unrelated males usually fails. So naturally one of the females is quite pregnant now, I just noticed a couple of days ago. 

Although I (obviously) prefer and love rats more than any other rodents, this should be an interesting expierence. I think I prefer to post about it here because nearly all mouse forums seem to be across the board in favor of 'culling', especially the poor bucks. I understand that bucks are hard to adopt since you (usually) cannot mix them, but even me the hunter is a little bit uneased by the huge amounts of culling practices by about 90% of the breeders out there. 

I originally didn't post this to debate the 'culling' process, I just want to share some pictures when her babies are born.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Look forward to seeing the babies! I also joined a mouse forum when I was sure one of my females was pregnant (got three female babies, one turned out to be male. Luckily nothing came of it) and was also turned off by that... I've found plenty of home for male mice in the past year so I think you'll be fine.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Yes, I have decided that I will be keeping all of them even if the number is 15 or more. Mice don't need nearly as much space as rats, and I am prepared to get a couple of more tanks for them if need be. The bucks I will be keeping together as long as problems don't arise - sort of a case by case basis, like I did with my Syrian hamsters (which despite the wisdom on the internet, I always found that blood brothers got along fine, it was just outsiders they didn't like, at least with me).


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Daniel said:


> Yes, I have decided that I will be keeping all of them even if the number is 15 or more. Mice don't need nearly as much space as rats, and I am prepared to get a couple of more tanks for them if need be. The bucks I will be keeping together as long as problems don't arise - sort of a case by case basis, like I did with my Syrian hamsters (which despite the wisdom on the internet, I always found that blood brothers got along fine, it was just outsiders they didn't like, at least with me).


I have two males living together that also have never had problems. The advice I got from longtime mice keepers was that, if they have enough space and enough hides and food, there is nothing to fight over and they'll be fine. I wouldn't keep more than three or so together once they're past puberty, however, as that will just increase the risk exponentially.


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Jul 24, 2012)

Culling isn't a bad thing. Since mice have such large litters it allows the healthier kittens to obtain more milk from their mother. It helps domesticated mice lines stay healthier, and they are culled in a humane way.

I'd definitely recommend fancymicebreeders.com as a good mouse forum. Everyone is friendly there and the culling section is something that you have to request to join.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Awaiting_Abyss said:


> Culling isn't a bad thing. Since mice have such large litters it allows the healthier kittens to obtain more milk from their mother. It helps domesticated mice lines stay healthier, and they are culled in a humane way..


Most of the 'humane ways' seem to involve either throwing them against the wall or freezing them to death. Sorry, I just don't agree with that. If it puts me outside the norm, so be it. The real reason for most of the culling is that the big mouse breeders cannot do much with the males; it would be impossible to profit off of doing mouseries without culling. 

If 'culling' is to be done, I would let nature take its course and for the mother to do it. But that is just me. Maybe it would make me unpopular with mouse breeders, but oh well.

This is an area that I side more with the PETA animal nutcases than with the more broad mouse community.


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Jul 24, 2012)

Profit off of mouseries? There is no profit in breeding any small rodent. I spend very well over the amount that I make back from my gerbils. Any kind of small rodent breeding is definitely done by people who have a hobby and really love the small rodent that they are breeding.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Awaiting_Abyss said:


> Profit off of mouseries? There is no profit in breeding any small rodent. I spend very well over the amount that I make back from my gerbils. Any kind of small rodent breeding is definitely done by people who have a hobby and really love the small rodent that they are breeding.


I was able to turn a profit when I bred hamsters several years ago, but it took some patience to get the 'volume' just right. The profit of course was modest. 

I misspoke - not so much profit, but there would be little benefit to having a ton of bucks that for the most part have to be kept alone. I read around for a few days before I posted this; there are many breeders who will cull every buck from their litters. But I am not a mouse breeder, and maybe in the end it has it's benefits; I just don't have the stomach for it. 

And I say this as a guy who has no problem culling the local deer population!

Maybe I sounded mean there; I just feel bad for all the little boys who don't get a chance, that's all.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

I actually find mice more of a challenge than rats. Sure, some rats don't always warm up to you or other people, but I have found even breaking the ice with mice to be tough.

With my big momma, I haven't even gotten to the point where she'll eat from my hand or at least accept treats. The best I get now is that she tolerates petting of her head. Anything else she flees in terror from, even though I am gentle with her. I know that mice will never get to really bond with you like rats do, but this initial step takes much longer. Now I know why it is often said that mice are more of a pet to watch, similar perhaps to fish, than one you handle, like rats, etc.

And here in lies, as I understand it, the benefit of having solitary males. The females are communial and thus they do no need you as much (so they think), but the bucks have more one on one bonding with their owners.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Many mouse owners have found this to be true--males tend to make better socialized pets because you are the only thing they interact with. 
Mice can be very sweet and bond very well to their humans, though. My boys are definitely better about being handled but my girls get more excited to see me and tend to be super bouncy when I'm playing with them. They are prey animals, while rats are predators, which is why it takes them much longer to come around.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Big momma got real big yesterday and was frantically nest building, and when I woke up this morning I saw pinkies  I caught her giving birth to the last one just afterwards. It is a medium sized litter of 7 or 8. All look to be decent sized, I can see a couple of PE mice.

After having thought about it some, I have changed my mind and decided I will keep any mice (buck or doe) as long as they aren't too similar from each other in fur pattern.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Glad it's a small litter!  Post pics when you can? What does the mom look like, by the way? Luckily with mice their genetics are so varied that it's likely you'll have very different looking babies, but you'll know in a few days what you're dealing with.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

It ended up being 9! Yes I will try and get pics tomorrow. Mom is a tempremantal mouse so I don't want to upset her. 

She is an orange-ish agouti, white-grey belly with black eyes. I haven't named her yet. (remember, these were feeder mice, so nothing special). Her sister is more interesting - black white tuxedo fur pattern with stripes of the orange along the edges. Going by the aunt, the babies could be pretty varied. 

Because this was a pet store pregnancy, I have no idea which buck was the father, so it really could be a total surprise. I was able to get a look at all of them - 3 are black eyed like the mother, the other 6 are pink eyed, which makes me think the father may have been a PEW. I haven't sexed them yet, but I will when I take pictures. It's been a long time since I bred hamsters, so it was nice to see babies of any kind of rodent for the first time in about 8 years. Plus mice are new for me.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

If the mom is a golden agouti it's likely her eyes are actually ruby, as I've never heard of a golden with black eyes... though I suppose it's possible. In any case, agoutis tend to have a wide variety of genetic possibilities so it will be cool to see how things turn out. 
Good call on not bothering her this early. Mice tend to be more finnicky than rats with their litters so it's recommended not to handle them until at least a week or two in if you aren't sure how the mom will feel about it.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

One of the bad parts about her giving birth a bit early (I had thought it was going to be Tuesday) is that she gave birth in one of my traveler tanks - perhaps about a 1 1/2 gallon one. I am completely out of proper bedding, as I accidently got PINE bedding when I was at the store, so I had to move her to the traveler which still had new carefresh in it. The ratties I have using newspaper bedding for the moment.

She seems comfortable, but its cramed and I cannot move her.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, to update this thread. Big momma ended up rejecting her litter yesterday because I made the mistake of changing the bedding and moving her and babies back into the main cage (she was in a carrier with old bedding)...a couple of them are still alive, but I havent seen her feed them except on 'accident' when she gets close enough to them...she will actually kick them off of her stomach! 

I am pretty livid with her now. Maybe it is my fault, but wow mice are terrible mothers compared to other small rodents. 

I doubt the last 2 will survive, but I am crossing my fingers.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Mice are not great mothers, and they do reject easily. That's why they usually say to wait at least a week before changing any litter, etc. I hope the babies survive, but if not, I'm very sorry for your losses.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Want to update this. The two babies died within a day of my last post, then the mother lost the use of her back legs for unknown reasons last night, and today I found her dead. Maybe she abandoned the litter for health issues I couldn't see.

Her tank mate is still here though. I will have to get a few more females so she isn't alone.


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## TexasRatties (Jun 2, 2013)

Awww thats too bad sorry for this traumatic experience. That might be why she rejected them but who really knows. You might try fancy mice if you have them in your area they tend to be a little hardier.


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