# Wheel Tail?



## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

So I always though "wheel tail" (when the tail curls over the back) was the result of over using the wheel or using a wheel that is too small. On the Rat Fan Club Facebook page a person posted a picture of a rat with wheel tail and and was saying how it was so cute and how she was going to keep a look out for one with wheel tail because she liked it so much. Others commented that it was from the wheel but that it was completely harmless and didn't affect the rats health and if you take the wheel away the tail will eventually straighten back out. I remember reading on this forum that wheel tail is bad for tails because it is after all bending their tails out of their natural shape. I commented saying something along the lines of how it isn't something you should desire in a rat as it is unnatural for them. An admin then commented that it is called curled tail and has nothing to do with a wheel and is purely genetic, therefore harmless and incurable. Is this true? What do you guys know? I trust this forum more than that page, even if it comes from an admin. In all the rats I've seen both on this forum and in real life, I've never seen one with a curled tail due to genetics. 


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't know, but I can tell you that after reading that thread last month, I was watching Penny run in the wheel and as soon as she wasn't able to keep her spine straight as she ran, the wheel was out of the cage and I upgraded to the monstrosity of a wheel I have now, lol. I would always prefer to be safe rather than sorry. To me, for their tails to get to that point, it seems like their spine has to curve the wrong way. Maybe you could give your vet a call and ask?


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

The founder of the page Debbie Ducommun (apparently she's a big deal in the rat community, I don't know much about her but she helped me with some health questions) said that wheel tail is genetic and also that running on a wheel does not cause back problems. So now I just don't know what to believe lol 


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

She also just said that a SMALL wheel does not cause back problems or a curled tail. I don't see how that makes sense 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

That was me commenting to her I just made a post about this to! Like common really a small wheel wont cause back problems?? 

I gave up with her. I can't believe she of all people that says she knows a lot about rats would say that. Why else would there be a recommended wheel size and such a big deal over getting the rat wheel if it didn't cause back problems.

I'm thinking about leaving that face book page there is so many breeders and people that have their rats in two small of a cage, and people that just because they are older think they know more then you. Also people on there making "adds" about looking for a male rat to breed with their female. i've seen a few times.


Sorry to the people that like this page.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I've had no big issues with the page so far, but really that incident made no sense to me. I mean how would I not hurt a rats back if it was being bent against it's natural curve? The thing about that group is it seems like if an admin or someone highly respected says something, it's automatically indisputable law and can't possibly be incorrect 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I know like I felt like saying something back but then her or everyone else would be like she said it so its right, but the other admin saying if the wheel was to small she doesn't think the rat would use it? I don't see where she got that from either. 

I don't like how as soon as someone tags her in the post either they take them off or you just feel like if you say something to her your going to just completely get shut down by everyone cause shes the "rat master".


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

It worries me because people are going to see that she said that and assume that because she's the all knowing rat expert, everything she says must be true. Then they're going to use too small wheels for their rats and they're not going to believe anything is wrong with that just because Debbie said so. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Yeah, I don't understand, after she said that i've left the group, because I don't see how it is physically possible for a wheel that is to small not to cause any back problems for a rat and cause wheel tail when I am pretty sure their tail is connected to their spin. Makes me wonder if there is anything else that she has said that doesn't make sense. 

But really to answer your question about wheel tail there has been many threads made about this because of people asking about wheels, and wheel tail seems to be an actual thing that does happen.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

Mitsy said:


> Why else would there be a recommended wheel size and such a big deal over getting the rat wheel if it didn't cause back problems.


Same reason we should all feed 23% or higher protein foods. Yes, today we know better and have gone to lower protein diets. The companies that sell rat food have gone lower as well, regal rat perhaps the most respected mass-marketed diet marketed for pet rats is only 15%. My point is the recommendations in the community don't always end up being correct - for a long time the recommendation was a high protein diet and now we know better. If Debbie is saying there's no issue with a small wheel she might be right. Or she might be wrong.

The recommendations in the rat community are usually safe, if perhaps not always correct. Consider wire cage floors. It's a widely spread idea that wire cage floors cause bumblefoot. One backed up with no evidence whatsoever. What are the origins of the idea? It could be as simple as a rescue took in a bunch of rats from a hoarder out of filthy wire floor cages and had a lot of bumblefoot and made the assumption the wire cages caused the bumblefoot. From there it could get spread to rat keeping guides, forums, and everywhere. So what decision do you make as a rat keeper? If you decide to purchase a cage with solid floors and shelves or cover wire shelves with fleece or something that is a probably a safe decision - no harm in doing that. Are you required to cover wire floors? Nobody forces you, just a matter of making a decision based on the information you have.

So, back to wheels. I've seen it said on this forum that wheel tail is a misalignment of bone. Also I've seen it said on this forum it results in severe back pain for the rat. In much of Europe the community opinion is no wheel should be provided to rats at all. The other extreme appears to be folks like Debbie Ducommun who apparently says even a small wheel does not cause back problems. On most forums in the US the general opinion I've seen is a large wheel is OK but not a small one, and that wheel tail is harmless. The AFRMA says female rats should always have a wheel. Is there any evidence that wheel tail is harmful? Or is this like bumblefoot and wire cage floors? Nobody forces you to offer or not offer a wheel so it's another case where you need to make a decision based on the information you have. 

My own opinion on the matter, I keep a wobust wodent wheel in my cage. It's a 12" wheel, solid floor. Do I think it's mandatory a wheel be 12"? The large wheel fits in the cage and I don't see any benefit to going smaller so I use the large one. I do have a rat with wheel tail, and don't think the rat is in pain or being harmed by it. I do think running a wheel does cause wheel tail, as a trained behavior. If while eating food I slapped your left hand every time you tried to use it to eat you would soon eat only with the right hand and probably even when I'm not there to slap your left hand. Same idea makes sense with wheel tail, if the rat doesn't curl the tail up while in the wheel it'll bounce against the wheel so the rat learns to curl the tail while running, even when not in the wheel. I've done no studies and have read no studies to substantiate my view, it's just an opinion and many have different opinions. It makes sense to me, and lacking evidence to the contrary it's what I choose to believe.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I really, really _hate_ Debbie's reputation. Experience isn't a trump card that somehow supersedes fact because "well, ive done it forever".

Minor wheel tail is not a complete spinal problem but *its like having a hunched back*. Can be genetic, can be environmental (slouching your entire life). I know the latter most definitely comes with pain and inability to be normal (my half sis can't sit for too long due to her minor, minor hunch).

Full on scorpion tail is very bad and very painful. Check out this pic: http://www.ikonet.com/en/visualdictionary/images/us/skeleton-of-a-rat-291810.jpg What do you notice? The tail is a part of the spine. Also check the natural curve. Now look at your rat running on a wheel. It doesn't take much common sense here.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

As a follow up to my post, check this pic: http://ratshackforum.com/ratroom/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Wheelie-Tail.jpg

Yeah. It's seen as adorable. Moving on. Look at their posture.

And, please note that wheel tail _can_ occur with too much use of even a properly sized wheel. Again, due to the natural curve versus the wheels curve. It is fixed by limiting the time the wheel can be used (making it free-range only for example).


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

inod3 said:


> Consider wire cage floors. It's a widely spread idea that wire cage floors cause bumblefoot. One backed up with no evidence whatsoever. What are the origins of the idea? It could be as simple as a rescue took in a bunch of rats from a hoarder out of filthy wire floor cages and had a lot of bumblefoot and made the assumption the wire cages caused the bumblefoot. From there it could get spread to rat keeping guides, forums, and everywhere. So what decision do you make as a rat keeper? If you decide to purchase a cage with solid floors and shelves or cover wire shelves with fleece or something that is a probably a safe decision - no harm in doing that. Are you required to cover wire floors? Nobody forces you, just a matter of making a decision based on the information you have.


Most people who know what bumblefoot is know that wire cages do correlate to a higher occurrence of bumblefoot. Why? Bumblefoot needs an injury and dirty conditions. Wire cages are inherently harder to clean (come on, I rarely even clean between the wires on the SIDES of my cage...I'd fail witha floor!). They also are more likely to cause injury because they can catch toes. Now, if you are sure that your rats won't get injured (or feel it unlikely, as in old males) and you clean your wire floors properly (I never would...tedious) thus removing urine/poo wire cages are fine for you. Might be uncomfy, but no reason against them medically.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

nanashi7 said:


> Most people who know what bumblefoot is know that wire cages do correlate to a higher occurrence of bumblefoot.


And yet, there's never any evidence for this statement. So I toss it in the same category as other disputed topics like wheels or the best food to feed. People have differing ideas on the harms and until someone actually does a study looking into it it's really all just speculation. Wire floors, solid floors, and fleece all get the finger pointed at them for contributing to bumblefoot depending on source. Wire floors are harder to clean or more frequently I hear wire floors cut into the feet causing micro-cuts. Solid floors allow urine to pool. Fleece can stay moist for a long time. With weekly cleanings I find wire floors fine to clean - stick cage in bath and ... and that's the rub. If someone only cleans their cage by wiping it down wire floors are hard to clean. In a bath with a high pressure shower head they're easy. Different people, different opinions.


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I feel like we could debate this for forever and never get an answer, but for me personally, I don't want to do anything that might cause my rats harm. So they have solid floors just in case, and a big wheel, just in case. It's not a major thing to do, so why take a chance? Even if it comes out for sure that rats can have small wheels and metal grate floors, I wouldn't feel stupid for having kept them the way they are now. That being said, there seems be evidence that these things cause bad stuff. Even if it's a coincidence, I will sleep better at night not taking the risk.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Personally, I have a 12 " Wodent Wheel in my cage and I have never noticed any problems. However I would never give them anything smaller than that. I like to live life as risk-free as I can manage. Sure, everyone's speculations about wire cages, wheels and diet could be completely wrong, but I like to minimize any potential risk where I can and have the means to do so. Yes, eventually 10 years from now we may find that fleece and paper bedding is cruel in some way and the new thing is x but for now, I can feel okay with the choices I feel are the most 'responsible' as a pet owner. At some point we have to rely on other people's experiences and knowledge on certain things, even if they may be proven to be incorrect in the distant future because that may be all the knowledge we have. Rats are not normally elective participants in pet studies, therefore we must make choices that we think are safe based on the wealth of 'speculation' from other people and ourselves. This is why I choose not to have uncovered wire cage floors and purchased the biggest wheel I could find - because even if there isn't enough consecutive 'proof', I do not like living in grey areas of what I feel are dangerous possibilities.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

PawsandClaws said:


> Personally, I have a 12 " Wodent Wheel in my cage and I have never noticed any problems. However I would never give them anything smaller than that. I like to live life as risk-free as I can manage. Sure, everyone's speculations about wire cages, wheels and diet could be completely wrong, but I like to minimize any potential risk where I can and have the means to do so. Yes, eventually 10 years from now we may find that fleece and paper bedding is cruel in some way and the new thing is x but for now, I can feel okay with the choices I feel are the most 'responsible' as a pet owner. At some point we have to rely on other people's experiences and knowledge on certain things, even if they may be proven to be incorrect in the distant future because that may be all the knowledge we have. Rats are not normally elective participants in pet studies, therefore we must make choices that we think are safe based on the wealth of 'speculation' from other people and ourselves. This is why I choose not to have uncovered wire cage floors and purchased the biggest wheel I could find - because even if there isn't enough consecutive 'proof', I do not like living in grey areas of what I feel are dangerous possibilities.


I think the point is, who's speculation and experience do we rely on when there is disagreement? Debbie Ducommun says "please believe me, I have 30 years experience, a small wheel will not cause back problems or a curled tail." I personally disagree with her. Who is right? She has way more experience than I do. I was not even born when she was getting into animal care. She has a degree in animal behavior. She has authored books on rat care nearly a decade before I owned a rat. She has been on TV, such as The Tonight Show. Me? I'm a nobody. Yet, I think I'm right and she's wrong.

There's a trap we can fall into relying on experience and speculation and that is the community will never be 100% behind anything. We're close, on many things. In the US I would say the majority of the community believes small wheels are bad and big wheels are acceptable. In that kind of situation the safe choice is probably to go with the community belief. Even if we accept Debbie's experience that a small wheel will not cause back problems, if a small wheel is OK a big wheel is OK too! Using a big wheel vs. a small wheel is a no brainer in my mind for that reason - although I can't cite a study showing the evils of the small wheel almost everyone agrees the big wheel is just fine and many believe the small wheel is not. Safe choice: big wheel. That opinion is not universal. In other places the majority of the community believes a wheel should never be provided at all. Is the safer choice to provide the large wheel (providing a readily available source of exercise) or to provide no wheel (and avoid potential for spine damage from a curved running surface)? Do you go with the opinion and experience of the US community or the Europe community? It is easy to say that experience and speculation are all we got, and that often is true, but often that experience and speculation is not universal and you have to make a choice. Sometimes it's an easy choice (small wheel vs. big wheel) and sometimes it's a hard choice (no wheel vs. big wheel?)


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

inod3 said:


> I think the point is, who's speculation and experience do we rely on when there is disagreement? Debbie Ducommun says "please believe me, I have 30 years experience, a small wheel will not cause back problems or a curled tail." I personally disagree with her. Who is right? She has way more experience than I do. I was not even born when she was getting into animal care. She has a degree in animal behavior. She has authored books on rat care nearly a decade before I owned a rat. She has been on TV, such as The Tonight Show. Me? I'm a nobody. Yet, I think I'm right and she's wrong.
> 
> There's a trap we can fall into relying on experience and speculation and that is the community will never be 100% behind anything. We're close, on many things. In the US I would say the majority of the community believes small wheels are bad and big wheels are acceptable. In that kind of situation the safe choice is probably to go with the community belief. Even if we accept Debbie's experience that a small wheel will not cause back problems, if a small wheel is OK a big wheel is OK too! Using a big wheel vs. a small wheel is a no brainer in my mind for that reason - although I can't cite a study showing the evils of the small wheel almost everyone agrees the big wheel is just fine and many believe the small wheel is not. Safe choice: big wheel. That opinion is not universal. In other places the majority of the community believes a wheel should never be provided at all. Is the safer choice to provide the large wheel (providing a readily available source of exercise) or to provide no wheel (and avoid potential for spine damage from a curved running surface)? Do you go with the opinion and experience of the US community or the Europe community? It is easy to say that experience and speculation are all we got, and that often is true, but often that experience and speculation is not universal and you have to make a choice. Sometimes it's an easy choice (small wheel vs. big wheel) and sometimes it's a hard choice (no wheel vs. big wheel?)


Whilst an opinion may not be universal, in life we must often make a decision based on the information we have been presented with and I believe this is okay. I think it is up to the individual to distinguish what risks merit a particular reward if there isn't a clear line of safe and unsafe but I still prefer to minimize risks where possible. In my research, I have found that wheels are physically stimulating and a great form of exercise provided they are large enough so I allow my rats access to a wheel in their environment. If I felt they were beginning to exhibit signs of wheel tail, I would immediately limit or take away their use of this resource and pass on my experience to others. I would think it was equally as acceptable if someone else did not provide for a wheel at all because of the dangers his or her community has experienced with it. To me, the rat fancy community is driven mostly by public knowledge, with that in mind, I would never get a small wheel because two people say it is safe when the staggering majority say it is not. I also believe that 30 years of outdated knowledge from one resource can and should be overlooked when there is overwhelming information that says otherwise. Not to mention that this specific individual has been discredited due to all her other far fetched 'knowledge' on rats. In conclusion, I agree with you for the most part but I disagree with the confusion of it all. Not all experiences are credible to you and where you are located. It is easy for me to rejects the opinions of a woman who has made other ridiculous, outlandish claims in the past (even with 30 years of experience) and instead choose from the options my community believes to be the safest alternatives. Pet ownership changes over time, especially rat ownership. 30 years of continuous research is fantastic but if you are stuck in your outdated knowledge from decades ago, I will always value new research over what we believed to be okay for the well-being of our pets back then.


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