# A coincidence? Mites and then pyometra (edit Bleeding Tail)



## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I am kicking myself for not looking more carefully earlier. Pyometra was my first worry, but I think I was hoping for something else and also, was not quite expecting the amount of blood I saw in the cage. When I observed more carefully, I saw that the blood is coming from my eldest girl's vagina and not my smallest's tail.

What is really bothering me besides the fact that I should have looked more carefully and that my girl is sick, is that I just took her to the vet one week ago for what I and the vet assumed mites. She had scabs appear and was itching all the time. The vet pointed out how he thought it was unusual that the scabs were localized to a specific area. I thought so as well when he pointed it out to me. The scabs are not really healing as I expected them too. Although, my males have had minor superficial wounds that took almost a month to heal because he kept scratching them. What I really want to know is if the two are or could be connected. It just seems too much of a coincidence for her to be afflicted with both in rapid succession like this.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> I am kicking myself for not looking more carefully earlier. Pyometra was my first worry, but I think I was hoping for something else and also, was not quite expecting the amount of blood I saw in the cage. When I observed more carefully, I saw that the blood is coming from my eldest girl's vagina and not my smallest's tail.
> 
> What is really bothering me besides the fact that I should have looked more carefully and that my girl is sick, is that I just took her to the vet one week ago for what I and the vet assumed mites. She had scabs appear and was itching all the time. The vet pointed out how he thought it was unusual that the scabs were localized to a specific area. I thought so as well when he pointed it out to me. The scabs are not really healing as I expected them too. Although, my males have had minor superficial wounds that took almost a month to heal because he kept scratching them. What I really want to know is if the two are or could be connected. It just seems too much of a coincidence for her to be afflicted with both in rapid succession like this.


mites are a natural thing on a rat that is normally kept in check by a healthy rat. When a rat is compromised (ill) the mites can flare up and take over causing an infestation, or if they have been exposed to another source (infected rat, infected beddng) it can flare up.

How did your vet treat for the mites? With mites (invisible) they start on the head/neck/shoulders...then spread over the body. With lice (visible) they start on the rump/back and then spread.

The vaginal bleeding may not be pyometra but could also be a genital myco outbreak. Its best to start rats on antibiotics to see if they clear up, and most vets prefer to start a rat on abs even before the spay unless its more of an emergency.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

The vet treated her with Stronghold. He chose not to give me treatment for everyone else, citing what you just mentioned about them occurring naturally. As no one else has had a breakout of mites, I wonder if she might have already been fighting an infection when I took her in last week. At some points the past few weeks, I wondered if she was being less active, but pushed it off as paranoia. Although, she is pretty laid back for a girl and I thought maybe she is just getting older.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Hmmm...really not smart of your vet. Mites do occur naturally but once you have an infestatin the rules change. As soon as a mite infestation comes in you need to dose everyone. Keep an eye on everyone, run your fingers through their fur on their shoulders/neck backwards to feel for any scabs. As soon as you feel any, get back to your vet for more Stronghold for everyone. If its been more than 30 days you will need to redose your original girl as well.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I was not too happy about it either. I have been looking at all the others carefully since I first noticed her symptoms. Every time I see someone scratch all I can think is "OMG MITES!," but everyone seems to be okay thus far.

I just got back from the vet, and my girl was prescribed:
0.04ml of Baytril (2,5%) once per day
0.01ml of Novalgin (500mg/ml) (active ingredient Metamizol-Natrium) 2-3 times per day

She weighs in at 350g / 12.34 oz. I was told that if her symptoms get worse or fail to improve that I should come back in and they will do an ultrasound. The vet I saw today was different than the one that treated her for the mites. I have to say that for my rats, I like this vet much better.

I think I am going to opt out of giving my girl the Novalgin. It is a pain medication and she does not seem to be in any particular discomfort at the moment. The medication also seems to have a bit of a scandalous reputation, but I would use it if she seemed to be uncomfortable.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> I was not too happy about it either. I have been looking at all the others carefully since I first noticed her symptoms. Every time I see someone scratch all I can think is "OMG MITES!," but everyone seems to be okay thus far.
> 
> I just got back from the vet, and my girl was prescribed:
> 0.04ml of Baytril (2,5%) once per day
> ...


Opt out for now, but bug me later tonight and I'll see what I can find out about it? I won't be home til later since I have 2 ratboys being neutered at the vet's right now and I have to pick them up and get them home after work.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

It has actually been banned in several countries, but is still used for veterinary purposes. It has the risk of causing a drop in white blood cells. Although the chance of this is small, I rather not risk it, considering she is most likely suffering from an infection, unless she is really showing signs of discomfort.

I hope your boys are recovering well.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Could this become a reoccurring problem? Should I consider spaying her, once she heals up, before she gets older?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> Could this become a reoccurring problem? Should I consider spaying her, once she heals up, before she gets older?


It's a very good idea if you can get it done. How old is she again?


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I believe she is about 1.5yrs. What age is too old?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> I believe she is about 1.5yrs. What age is too old?


I have had older rats then that spayed. If your vet is competent you could. If you aren't sure, I wouldn't try with an older girl.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I am going to ask my vet if he has experience spaying rats, if not I have a few other vets in mind to ask.

At what point should I expect the bleeding to stop if the meds are working?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> I am going to ask my vet if he has experience spaying rats, if not I have a few other vets in mind to ask.
> 
> At what point should I expect the bleeding to stop if the meds are working?


Usually 3-4 days or so.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Wah! Today, she leaped off my lap, without any warning, while I was preparing to medicate her. She kind of pancaked into the cabinet about 2 feet away and slid down to the floor. She seemed pretty calm before hand. I guess she decided that she has already had enough of the Baytril. I suppose this means she is not feeling too bad.

I was worried that she might have sprained something, as she seems quite prone to sprains. Thankfully, she is not limping and there is no swelling. I will definitely sit further away from the cage from now on. Although, even if the doors had been open and she had not pancaked into the cabinet, she would have ended up with the misters.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Silly bugger  how's the bleeding?


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

It seems to be little to none today. She did not leave any on the towel today when she was on my lap. You know before she mistook herself for a flying squirrel :. I think I am going to separate her and put her on a big pile of white paper towels for maybe an hour tomorrow, just to make sure.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> It seems to be little to none today. She did not leave any on the towel today when she was on my lap. You know before she mistook herself for a flying squirrel :. I think I am going to separate her and put her on a big pile of white paper towels for maybe an hour tomorrow, just to make sure.


That's great!!! Let's hope its just a genital myco outbreak


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Today, I separated her to check on her bleeding. She is still bleeding, but not very much and definitely less than when I took her to the vet on Monday. You would not know she is sick, unless you saw her bleeding. I think I will separate her again in two days to check again.

I talked to my vet today, and he said that he has done many spays on rats with rarely any complications. I remembered reading in another post, that you mentioned that it is better to put them under with gas rather than an injection. He said that he uses gas to put them under. So, I think I will get her spayed once she recovers.

It is a little early to ask, but what should I know about pre- and post op care? Do they need to be off food and water before hand?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Definitely not. Rats cannot vomit so can eat up to the actual surgery. I send my rats in with a few lab blocks, cheerios etc. My vet feeds them baby cereal after they have woken up and makes sure they drink as well.

Ask if they will do internal dissolvable sutures and glue on the outside layer instead of stitches or staples...the rat is less likely to bother them.

Pain meds for up to 3 days for a spay (I find 1-2 is usually sufficient), do NOT let them tell you that the metacam injection is all they need. I don't usually use abs afterwards but if they want you to give it as a preventative for infection, go for it.

Depending on how your girl is doing (some are bouncing when they get home) you can put them right back in with their cagemates, but if you feel they are too groggy and not dealing with the anesthetic too well, put them on their own on fleece for the night and re-evaluate the next day.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I will definitely mention the sutures to the vet when I go in. I had been wondering about internal sutures myself already. I think in 10 days, I will take her in for a check up to make sure she is up for the surgery. If I get a green light, I will most likely schedule her to get spayed for a few days after that.

I separated her again today to check on the bleeding. She is not bleeding anymore, hooray! Now she knows that when I open the cage door between 5-6PM that it is medication time, so she runs off to hide lol. Rats catch on so quickly, although sometimes I wish they did not. :

Today, when she was on my lap, I was inspecting her scabs and I thought that maybe she looks slightly thinner. She has a sort of plumpness to her, but not an overweight plumpness. The same plumpness that prevented me from noticing her pregnancy until 4-5 days before she gave birth. Today, my instincts told me that she looked slightly less plump, so I gave her a weigh. She weighed in at 340g / 12 oz. She was 354g / 12.5 oz at the vet. I keep second guessing myself and wondering if she really looks thinner. Could this be from the infection clearing up? My second guess is that I am just being paranoid and the two different scales are weighing her differently. Either way, I am going to weigh her a couple more times over the next week just to make sure.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Today, I got the green light to get her spayed. The vet encouraged my decision to spay her. She mentioned that if and/or when the issue reoccurred that she would need to be spayed at that time, so better now than later. I was also happy to hear that the vet told me to bring in food with her to eat. I was originally worried that my vet would not be adequate for more serious problems when I started taking my rats there. I am glad to say that they surprised me. I feel I really lucked out, as they are a 5-10 minute walk from my apartment and the practice only opened about 3 years ago.

I am wondering, although, if the price is unreasonable for the spay. Is 150 too high a price for a rat spay? The neuters are priced at 70. I chose not too look around at other vets, because the other vets I know of, for rats, are on the other side of the city. I would need to spend an hour or more riding the subway and the bus. I assumed for a rat going through post op, this is a stress I would prefer not to expose my girl too.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I think that's a very good price...spays here are 350 but I pay less with my rescue discount, neuters discounted are 130, so I think your 150 is pretty good


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I am glad to know that the price is not unreasonable. I really did not want to look around for another vet.

I just picked my girl up from the vet a short while ago. The vet told me the surgery went well. She was only just waking up when I arrived, so she is still very groggy. I do not think she will be recovering fully from the anesthetic tonight. So, I will most likely have her camp out with me in the bedroom tonight. Even though she can barely coordinate her limbs at the moment, she seems restless. She is constantly awkwardly pushing herself around, a bit like a slug. It is hard to watch her like this, but at least she seems a bit more lucid since we got home. I managed to get her to drink a bit, but I think for now she is a bit too groggy for drinking and eating.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww glad she made it through the surgery well!

She'll be groggy for a while, yeah. They don't like being like that.

Do you have pain meds for her?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Awww so glad the surgery part is done and its only time to heal. but yes when they come home before the majority of the effects of the anesthetic have worn off, its very hard to see.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I have some Novalgin drops (Metamizole sodium) to give her for pain. As she is no longer suffering from an infection, I am not worried about the Novalgin anymore.

She is sporting a bit of a sucked in look around her hips. Will this be her new figure? Or will she fill back out over time?


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

They suck in their stomach when they are in pain  They'll also start doing some weird stretches, the "owwie" stretches.

Never heard of novalgin, I'll look that up.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Okay I looked it up and can find nothing about using it in rats so I don't know...but she does need something for pain. I'd probably want to buy some infants (NOT childrens! childrens is not very concentrated) ibuprofen, and give her that. The dosing range I use is one of the ones from ratguide, 15 to 60mg/lb. If you need help figuring out a dose once you buy it someone here will help you.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I went ahead and gave her some Novalgin after you mentioned the stomach sucking was a sign of pain. I read up a bit about Novalgin on a German rat forum, and did not find anything worrisome. It is hard to tell if it is actually helping her because of the way she stumbles about. I am going to give her another dose in the morning, it is a multiple dose/day med, and see if it seems to help. If it is not, I will go ahead and get some infant Ibuprofen. If all the pharmacies were not already closed, I would have gone ahead and gotten some right now.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Okay, I hope it helps her!


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Her pain seems better today with the Novalgin. She has yet too poop since she came home. I am going to continue to keep her separated, so I can keep an eye on her bowel movements. I am going to give her a bit of time with her cagemates after I clean the cage. If she has not pooped by tomorrow morning, then I will head back to the vet.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Terpsichore said:


> Her pain seems better today with the Novalgin. She has yet too poop since she came home. I am going to continue to keep her separated, so I can keep an eye on her bowel movements. I am going to give her a bit of time with her cagemates after I clean the cage. If she has not pooped by tomorrow morning, then I will head back to the vet.


Have you tried nice soft foods like baby cereal and meal replacement drinks etc? To encourage her to eat?


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

She did eat during the night. I saw crumbs around the cage in the morning. When I noticed that she had not pooped when I woke up, I gave her some baby cereal. She had a bit more in the early afternoon. Her appetite may be reduced, but not really enough that I am concerned. She is still spending most of her time resting. It does not worry me, considering she barely rested until maybe 6-8hrs after we got home. She gets up to eat, drink and show me how the cage should have been arranged. All in all, she seems mostly as I expected, except for the lack of poop.

Edit: She just pooped after I gave her the Novalgin. It looked a little dry, so I will encourage her to drink and eat well hydrated foods more often. Yay, I feel so relieved.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Yay for poopage!!!


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

Today, a red splotch appeared on her stomach:









I think that the blueness of the flash might be making it look more orange. Either that, or the warm light of my kitchen is making it look more red in person. The picture is horribly blurry, but as good as I can get for now. Is this possibly skin irritation from rubbing against things?

On another note: She messed with her incision a bit, but not badly enough that she needed a trip to the vet. She has been keeping the area extremely clean. I am assuming that it will slightly slow down healing and not heal as cleanly.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

It looks like it might be an abscess. There is a great sticky on dealing with them.


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

I meant to mention, but forgot, that the area is completely flat and has no swelling. I took her out, just to make sure after your suggestion, and noticed it has a kind of rough feel now. It also looks more yellowy than I remember it being earlier today. Perhaps the area became chafed to the point of being a bit raw and then it scabbed over? Or maybe she over groomed? I do not really feel there is anything for her to become chafed on and it is not as if she is dragging herself around. I am feeling a bit like this: ???


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Hmm I'm not sure. Can you get another pic?


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

This is the best picture, out of over a dozen, I could get out of the spot. She really dislikes being stood up. I lightened it up a bit.








It comes from this picture:









The picture is again blurry, but the spot (scab?) looks more developed today from what I observed. It is darker today in the center. It still remains flat, and I have not seen or felt any noticeable swelling. Also, the spot does not extend beyond the shaved area.

As shown in the picture, today her incision site is crusty. The puss appears to be completely dry and is not actively oozing at the time of the photo. Although, I did not notice when I was looking at her, it looks like in the photo that there is some swelling. I managed to get a decent picture of the incision site, although I had to lighten it up a bit.









Most likely I will head back to the vet tomorrow. I am going to send the picture to my father, a people doctor, and see what he thinks about the incision site. I think I saw her sucking her stomach in again when I looked at her earlier :-\ Poor girl.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The incision site actually looks good to me. The crusties aren't pus but more body fluid that has seeped out. Put your nose right to the incision and sniff hard, smell any infection?


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## Terpsichore (May 28, 2011)

My father said the same thing. There is no smell coming from the incision. I finally got a good look at the spot that appeared during a rare moment of sunlight in this dreary summer. It looks crusty like the incision. So I suppose her skin really did get raw somehow and oozed a bit of fluid as a result.

Thanks to everyone for helping me with all my worries.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Awesome! My concern was because it *looked* like there was a bump with a red dot on it, the "crusties" are just what it does when it is healing.


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