# idiots...just...idiots..



## thesharpestlives (Nov 8, 2012)

i got a new albino baby today. He is sweet as all heck, my little dumbledore.  but, i almost couldnt get him -.-. my dad called petsmart, hoping to talk to an "expert" before he got Thor his new little friend. well, this so called "expert" told my father male rats could NEVER live together because they would ALWAYS kill and eat each other. -.- my dad believed her..and after he hung up i pulled up 8 plus articles online saying it could and should be done. my dad eventually agreed saying if they killed each other it wasnt his fault. WELL go figure they are already bruxing and snuggled up to eachother after being together for an HOUR. 

-.-


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## MissRatLover (Nov 15, 2012)

at my petsmart they have males together hahaha some people are just so stuiddd


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## thesharpestlives (Nov 8, 2012)

^ agreed. i didn't understand what this lady was thinking..i ended up going to a local mom and pop shop instead.IDIOTIC PEOPLE.


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

He was thinking male mice


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## thesharpestlives (Nov 8, 2012)

^ i know. i used to own a mouse  this is why, people, DO YOUR RESEARCH! haha.


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## sarashine (Oct 12, 2012)

That's awful. They shouldn't allow the people providing the rats to customers to be uninformed. When I got patton he was already 5 months old and they had him separated the entire time because they thought he was aggressive. He's been living with his cagemate peacefully for almost a year.


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## thesharpestlives (Nov 8, 2012)

i noticed Thor was acting depressed, which is why i have gotten him a cagemate. jeez, they are already like peas in a pod <3. if i work at petsmart in the future...my god i shall educate EVERYONE i can.


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## sarashine (Oct 12, 2012)

Good luck on your mission. I should apply at petco here. I already work at party city which is in the same shopping center.


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## Romans5.8 (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of chain pet stores. I have been breeding African Cichlids (A type of medium sized aggressive African fish), and let me tell you Petco/smart is wrong on so many levels with those. There are hundreds of species of Cichlids and they are all aggressive, some more than others. Ranging from 'might get into a scuffle every now and then' to 'Absolutely cannot be housed with anything that isn't much bigger than it'. As such it's imperative that you have pure-bred (no 'mutts', as they are unpredictable and often unhealthy) Cichlids and that you mix species that are compatible! For example, in my 75 galon tank my most aggressive fish are also fairly small, and housed with two much larger species. The aggressive fish won't pick on the big guys, and the bug guys are among the more docile to other species. (There are some that are very aggressive to their own kind but won't touch another species!)

Anyway, if you go to the chain pet stores, you'll find a mix-n-match tank of 'African Cichlids'. Any species, your guess is as good as mine, mostly mutts, all mixed together. Probably to go in some bowl in someones living room. And they are completely oblivious! It's not the employees fault, they only know what they are taught. It's the corporate policies of stock 'em and sell 'em that hurts these animals and sends them to under-equipped and uneducated homes. Their 'care sheet' for Tiger Oscars (A very large south American Cichlid) says they can be housed in a 29 gallon tank. The standard dimensions for a 29 gallon tank are roughly half the width that a full grown Oscar is long. That means, he can't even turn around! And he's supposed to live 15-20 years in that?

Fun fact, did you know that a Goldfish can have a lifespan of over 30 years, and some species are known to live for over 70 years? They are also some of the most demanding fish on the market, often requiring 100+ gallons of water and tremendous filtration. Yet for some reason, the chain pet market says they are great fish for kids to put in a little bowl, and when they die after 6 months to a year, everyone just assumes that was their lifespan, when in fact it had 29 years to go in a suitable tank! In fact, a Koi in Japan made records when he died in 1977. The reason that was significant, was because his first home was a Japanese emperors palace in 1751. There is a theory that Koi may be among those species that are 'biologically imortal', that is, they don't really 'age' after maturity. The environment will eventually take it's toll, as will occasional diseases leaving behind damage, stress, etc. but time itself won't claim these fish. And yet folks buy these fish to stick in a bowl and are elated when they live 6 months?

I could go on and on. But, you can see why an avid aquarist who wanted to Foray into Rats wasn't going to trust anything the Pet store said and was going to seek out articles, books, and internet forums for information first! (Been reading this forum for a while!)

I don't want to be critical of the employees, but it's definitely worth it to seek out a local pet store. I buy what I must at the chain shops but I drive many miles past the chain places to go to little mom-and-pop places for most of my aquarium supplies, food, etc.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Actually that's an old myth, that male rats couldn't live together, not mice but rats...there's a lot of these "so-called" experts out there.  Glad you got your little boy


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## TrueDatxD (Sep 4, 2011)

the economy is sh** and this is what ppl rave about.... psh!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

TrueDatxD said:


> the economy is sh** and this is what ppl rave about.... psh!


And your meaning is?


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## echoskybound (Apr 24, 2012)

It sounds like she got rats and mice confused, because I think male mice don't cohabitate as well as male rats do. Sometimes the pet store employees don't know everything about every animal they have, and sometimes the recruits aren't necessarily animal people, they just applied for a retail job.

But I often feel frustrated with how uneducated people can be about animals, too... they're very quick to judge them without understanding them. I saw a little girl with her mom in a pet store once who was looking at the cute little mice, and the mom said, "Ick, no! They're gross and diseased. I had mice once and they eat each other when they die!" I wanted to say, "You left your mice alone for so long that you didn't realize when one was dying?"


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## echoskybound (Apr 24, 2012)

Great information, Romans5.8! It's great to see some aquarists here. I've had frustrations over the ways bettas are kept for a long time. I hate the notion that they can live in a small jar because they aren't super active, which is ironic, because the only reason they're not active is because they CAN'T MOVE! They've very active in a tank of 5+ gallons. Or worse, those vases with plants on the top, because people don't realize bettas are a type of gourami with a labyrinth organ, and needs to breathe AIR. Then, they don't feed the betta, because "the fish will eat the roots of the plants" despite being carnivores that only eat plant matter out of desperation. I think it's an idea that's perpetuated by stores selling these little "betta bowls" and things, and unkowing customers assume that it must be safe since the pet store sells it.

Did I go off on a tangent? ;P


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm going to be the first to point this out: please tell me you quarenteened the new rat before introducing him to your buddy. And on the subject, an employee tried to sell me a habittrail for my gerbils because "thats what the book says". After explaining why I was looking to purchase a larger aquarium, he told me gerbils will eat glass if given the chance.


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## thesharpestlives (Nov 8, 2012)

i do have a guarantee  and thanks for all the replies


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## Mrm911 (Jul 6, 2012)

I have the same goal to get a job there and educate people. But i have no clue about fish though.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow, I'm sure if an animal can Chew through Glass it can easily rip through a plastic cage.

I hate the way they care for gold fish, Gold fish are a breed/species of Karp, and Karp get pretty big naturally. My grandma still has a gold fish that is maybe, 8 years old? not quite sure, I kind of killed her other gold fish a long time ago. When I was little I shared my chicken nuggets and cheez-its with the fish, Gold fish don't like them apparently, at least I was sharing. 

I do wish some education was better, especially fish. Silver/fresh water sharks (Bale sharks I believe they are also called?) are sold as babies and can "live" in small tanks. They can get pretty big and most need around 20 gallons. I had 2 of them. 

Also Picasamisses (I can't spell it) are sold as babies and can get pretty big, my grandma has I want to say over 10 year old one named Pickachu. I have a 3 + year old one named Baby (well it's hers). Oddly enough they get along which is rare for this type of fish. They've been together for years with no issues.

Wow how do I know so much about fish?

Some pet stores are trying at least, by doing more training camps and such. One of the petcos which does sell feeders had a male rat (the only Albino I've ever seen here) and they had oranges in his bowl for him to eat. Sure males can't have citrus due to infertility and kidney issues it will cause but at least they were trying to give him a better life in till he was most likely bought as snake food. Some stores within a chain are just better then others.


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## BlackCat99 (Oct 9, 2012)

I know this is off topic but LightningWolf "plecos" (I don't know how to spell it either) come in many varieties, the typical one you see at petco can get 12+ inches long but there are other varieties that stay small like the Bristlenose Pleco (I have a few) only get like 2.5in max


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I don't know what type they are, they are black/dark grey with rosettes (like leopards) and Pikachu is 2 ft or more. Most Plecos though they sell get to this size, Did know there are some who only get 2.5 inches, kind of odd considering they are members of the Karp Family (their closest relative is cat fish).


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

Korra said:


> He was thinking male mice


This.


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I know a while ago my local pet shop updated their website to include care information for the animals they sell. They also put on the website that male rats "should not be kept together as they will fight" and when I e-mailed them to correct them, they changed it to "male rats are more likely to fight so bear this in mind when choosing." 

Obviously to any non-rat people that's as good as saying that you shouldn't keep two males together. There's no talking to them though, they won't change it. 

*@Romans5.8* Wow, that's a lot of information I never knew about fish. I had a bad experience with my tropical tank a couple of years ago. I was just starting out and went to the pet shop for advice on good starting fish. They sold me three bala sharks, three tiger barbs, a large pleco, a small pleco, a blue crayfish, an angel fish, and a parrot cichlid. Somehow these creatures all lived peacefully but the tiger barbs all died this year (we have yet to find out how) and the crayfish and parrot cichlid died when we left them with our neighbour and went on holiday. He didn't change the water the day we asked him and I swear they just died from stress. I was broken hearted over the crayfish and cichlid, they were full of character. 

Then the sharks picked up some sort of disease, we treated it but only one survived. Every time we went back to the pet shop to ask they would just sell us some stuff to put in the water that was apparently a miracle cure. Nothing worked though, all the sick fish died anyway.

Now we're just letting the remaining plecos, shark and angel fish on their own while we decide if we want to get more or maybe rehome what we have. They're quite high maintenance and after that stressful experience I've been put off  

We keep koi outside in the pond with some sturgeon and goldfish (and a few little shubunkin that we took off my niece when the novelty wore off and she wasn't cleaning the bowl anymore) and those are fantastic. They're really sturdy and great to see swimming out in the pond, especially how they pop their heads out of the water for food!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I got curious and when to the Petco website. Their Care sheet says that rats can live in pairs or groups if raised together. However it says if they aren't raised together to keep them separate Close enough, at least the rest of it is pretty close to the truth. (it says get the largest cage you can, which for most rules out tanks and hamster cages) and it says that if your rat is sick contact your exotic animal vet, at least they are encouraging people to get a vet for their rats.

Poor Babs. One of my first fish were Bala shark I want to say (I've always called them fresh water or silver sharks), not sure how long they lived, but they died after a year or so I believe. Awesome fish I must say, When we're able to have fish again I'm going to try to keep them again. Plecos are really hardy creatures, they are related to Karp so it might be able to live in your pond (not 100% sure though).

I've always had crawdads, or crayfish as most people call them, but we got them from our local river. They are awesome, we found one that is almost like an Axanthic, it was all black and grey and only the smallest amount of red on his claws, his name is Ghost, I think he's still alive.


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## binkyhoo (Sep 28, 2008)

Good for you for being A smart person who did reading before buying! We all love it when rats find a good home.


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## fluffy470 (Feb 24, 2012)

Lol I agree, I keep three boys together and they are unseperable


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## Romans5.8 (Nov 15, 2012)

Babs said:


> I know a while ago my local pet shop updated their website to include care information for the animals they sell. They also put on the website that male rats "should not be kept together as they will fight" and when I e-mailed them to correct them, they changed it to "male rats are more likely to fight so bear this in mind when choosing."
> 
> Obviously to any non-rat people that's as good as saying that you sh
> 
> ...


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## Charliesmom (Nov 13, 2012)

*I am really very very lucky in that my local petsmart is blessed with knowledgeable people, that have worked there for quite some time, and a few are veterinary technicians. My rat Charlie came from there, but the store manager refuses to buy from mass pet breeders, and chooses local breeders instead. he has long spaces with no animals to sell, but when he does get them in they are healthy *Charlie has a myco flare up, but i'm pretty sure it was brought on by the stress of coming into my home...after his vet visit he is improving, and getting better with meds* the rats and other small rodents are all socialized. My guinea pig ziggy was a doll and crossed the rainbow bridge in october at 5 years of age. he also came from my petsmart. The manager can set his own store rules with a little more freedom because he is a franchise owner, not someone just running the store from corporate. The store hands out care pamphlets not produced by petsmart, but rather by ARBA for the guinea pigs, and breed clubs for the hampsters, mice, and rats. They also give breeder info. 

Their fish are checked on once a week by a local man who runs a high end aquarium and fish shop here in town with 40 years experience *he also handles the giant 4000 gallon salt water aquarium at the nearby casino as well* in the four years I have lived here, and my almost weekly visits, I have only ever seen three dead fish in the tanks. everything in the store is kept spotless, animals cages are always clean, and food always available. They have won award after award for many years in a row for thier excellent service. 
They told me if I came in for a friend for Charlie, that they could loan me a cage to quarantine the new rat *which was above and beyond, I was impressed to say the least* I can't say enough about them. 

I guess it all depends on the store, the employees, and their willingness to work hard to maintain high standards, and a boss that enforces those standards. 
*


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow Charlie'smom. That's nice, wish our local stores were that nice.

The petsmart I've always gotten my guys from has always had clean cages. Full water bottles and full bowls. They even give them fresh foods with their lab blocks. They do use tanks (Actually I think they are 20 gallons or bigger cause they are way bigger then my 10 gallon) but they don't over crowd them, 2 rats max from what I've seen per tank. The woman who was there last time was extremely nice, she knew how old each of them was, and when they had came in to the store (Storm had just came in maybe a day or two before then). She called them ratties even. She also encouraged me (even though I was already going to) pick them up instead of her. Which was a good thing cause when I put my hand into Soda's tank he immediatly pounced up my arm and started boggling, so I think she had been playing with them. Though I don't know if they get from a local breeder or a pet mill. Other then Einstein who was prone to resp. issues from the get go, and Storm's thyroid issues, there has really been no genetic issues (Unless you count Charles's PT as one). The only thing that has linked them together is that I swear all of my rats have had Cataracts or some form of eye issues. (I'm not sure about Einstein though he sure did act blinder then most rats, Charles had a small cataract, Soda has a small one and I think is getting another one on his other eye, and I think Storm is getting one as well).

Just make sure that if they are getting care sheets from clubs that it isn't from AFRMA. they say you can keep rats in tanks.


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## Romans5.8 (Nov 15, 2012)

Was not the case with my local petsmart unfortunately. The guy chased them around the tank and yanked them by the tail and threw them in a cardboard box and handed them to me. I've made my last chain store pet purchase. You get a few good ones thanks to a few knowledgeable people (again, it's not their fault, they were trained that way and you can't expect them to know everything about every animal).

I'm very much of the opinion that in capitalism, you vote with your dollar. We need to remember to support the local pet stores that take time to educate their employees and their customers on proper care. This costs them more time, and more money. They take the extra time, and spend the extra money, because they care about the animals, they aren't just a commodity on the shelf. 

With the chain pet stores, the care sheets are bare minimum survivability. If the care sheet said rats have to live in a large wire mesh cage that was X square feet per rat, with floors lines and covered to protect their feet, and all of the toys, free range time, and stimulation they take, then they wouldn't sell near as many. People get rats for their kids because they think they will be easier than cats or dogs. Truth is, a cat or a dog is a very easy pet. These small animals (rats, hamsters, fish) require a lot of special attention and care. But Petsmartco knows that their largest market is kids wanting a first pet, so the care sheets describe absolute minimum survivability. A rat CAN survive in a small aquarium, it just isn't ideal and their lifespan might be cut short. But, when petco has their annual $1/gallon aquarium sale, that means you can get a rat, all set to go, for under $30! Just a food bowl, $10 aquarium, some food, a water bottle, and a mesh reptile topper right?

Again back to the aquariums. A goldfish, or a beta CAN survive in a little glass bowl with no heat or filtration. But their life is not ideal, it's 'survival mode' for both fish. Betta's can like 5 years and Goldfish 30-75 years but people would never know that, because the care sheet says they can live in a glass bowl, and when they die after 6 months they figure that was it. A labrador can survive on minimum, poor quality food in a small locked cage that isn't cleaned for it's entire life, but it's lifespan will be drastically short. THAT we'll call cruel because everyone knows Dogs live 14 years, so when a 2 year old lab dies in deplorable conditions, we know it was bad. Nobody seems to worry about a goldfish whose life was cut 29 1/2 years short!

I'm glad some of you have good local chain pet stores. I would encourage you to give them your business, reward a company that does well. But for those that don't, I really think we need to support our local pet stores. I dunno about you all, but around me they are dropping like flies, can't compete with chain store prices. Why? they can't afford loss leaders, and they refuse to have sub-standard care and only train employees for a couple of hours on stocking shelves and inventory management, with perhaps a quick tidbit about how often to feet the animals in the cages!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Unfortuantly here the mom and pop shops are worse. There is this one pet shop, which my friend swears is clean and amazing, but every time I've been there they're animals have been sick. They even had a snake that looked highly over fed, it had a sign on it's enclosure saying "$1 to feed me a rat". Probably is why it was over fed, which I find sad cause snakes when over weight can get a wide range of illnesses. I couldn't even see their rats and mice. they were in the back (From the small glance I saw, in 10 gallon tanks and rat racks even those on snake forums would be bashing them for being too small). Plus all this store sells is animals, no supplies for them, nothing. Maybe they have changed since the last 8 months I was there, or maybe it was just my one visit, but from that visit I would never go back again. And they are the only mom and pop store that doesn't have only dog and cat supplies. 

I will agree, things are different depending on the manager. Some mom and pop shops are great, some are worse then the chains.


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