# Possible heat symptoms? at wits end, please help!



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Please help! Last night was disastrous. I think it was probably heat symptoms but I'm not sure. The day before both girls were coming to the door to get a treat, zooming off and stashing it and coming back for more, they get plenty of food and treats so we thought nothing of it other than it was funny to watch. Last night however was a different ball game! I heard both girls squabbling a few times, but I'd decided to do what Rat Daddy said and support the alpha (or who I thought was, it keeps changing daily at the moment), this was going quite well other than Velma got the face on and refused to come out at all and ran off somewhere I couldn't pick her up. Later on I tried again and successfully got both girls out.Then it happened.... Daphne started chasing Velma around the bottom of the cage and grabbing around her middle (I'm assuming trying to hump her). I thought Velma might have been in heat because of what I've read on here but it got so bad, there was a lot of squeaking, running off and just general harshness to it all. In the end I took out all the hidey places and left them with very little. As soon as I opened the cage Velma (the one being chased) was trying to get out to me, she genuinely looked scared. So even though we haven't been supporting her as alpha I knew I had to lift her out, plus she looked as though she had a puncture wound (turned out just to be indented fur). I've checked her and she's fine. Then that got me worried about Daphne. So I left Velma with my husband and got Daphne out. She's fine too. But when I stroked her, her back did a ripple thing and she let out a series of small squeaks repeatedly every time I did it, but not hurt kind of squeaks. She then snuggled down in the crook of my arm and stayed there. Velma made her way back across and ended up behind my neck. They were like that for an hour and if I hadn't needed to go to bed I think I would have ended up staying like that all night. My girls don't sit still for that long EVER! I've got to say it was lovely, but is it normal? And what do I do if it happens again?


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Also, Rat Daddy, do I need to support the other rat as alpha instead? I'm really confused. Any help would be appreciated.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

what do you mean by support the alpha?

Personally I am in the group that does not see alpha vs submissive as such strong opposite sides. I do not think the social structure is so simple or black and white as that. Some rats can be more outgoing or bossy and other rats can be more laid back, and that is usually the case. It is rare IMO that an actual rat is "boss" while others are submissive to them lol in most cases many different rats in the group can be more bossy or outgoing and sometimes push others around and it can change daily. And I am not a fan of the whole idea of alpha as it usually ignores any actual issues that could be causing the real problem.

It is worth noting that I have alot of rats and large groups of rats together and several different groups even. I have to pay alot of attention to their social structures  In not a single group of mine do I see an alpha..... but I suppose it is a matter of opinion, but this is mine.

How old are your girls?

It could possibly be them being in heat. Hormones flying can get everyone cranky lol It could also just be little spats. If they are young it could even be some crazy playing! The general rule is to let them work it out if there is no blood/injury. It is then usually nothing to worry about. I'd keep an eye on them to make sure it does not escalate. Some girls will have gentle heats you can't even tell and others can really just be uncomfortable and cranky  I have a few girls who might try to hump or power groom each other during it. But it sounds like your one girl could have been quite upset distressed from it, so definitely just keep an eye on them and see if they keep fighting or if it gets worse.


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> what do you mean by support the alpha?
> 
> Personally I am in the group that does not see alpha vs submissive as such strong opposite sides. I do not think the social structure is so simple or black and white as that. Some rats can be more outgoing or bossy and other rats can be more laid back, and that is usually the case. It is rare IMO that an actual rat is "boss" while others are submissive to them lol in most cases many different rats in the group can be more bossy or outgoing and sometimes push others around and it can change daily. And I am not a fan of the whole idea of alpha as it usually ignores any actual issues that could be causing the real problem.
> 
> ...


It was just something Rat Daddy suggested, if you see my other post about Alpha Swap it's all in there. I would never want to do anything that would upset or harm them, I'm just not that person. It's just that one is a lot more out-going and the other is to put it blatantly a wimp, I didn't want our resident wimp to hold back our little explorer. 

So far I think they've squabbled almost every day since they got here as though they are both trying to be the dominant one. They're just over 3 months old now (we've had then almost two weeks) and last night was horrible to watch, it made me quite upset even though I know they are both fine and no-one got hurt. I'm pretty sure they're half-sisters (I can't remember what she said, I was just so excited) as we have a biscuit/burmese and a biscuit/wheat and they came from the same breeder. They are also a little bit flighty as due to a family death the breeder didn't socialise them as much as she normally does.

Once they were out and were sat on different parts of me I kept alternating who got fussies and who was just sat there as they were quite far apart, but every time one thought I'd been too long with the other the head bobbed up and looked at me as if to say "isn't it my turn again yet?". They have NEVER been that cuddly/clingy. I can't usually get them to sit still if I try!

They're both sleeping together at the moment and neither is trying to get away from the other so I'm taking it as a good sign. I'm just so worried, I don't want to have to split them up, the whole point was so they could be happy together. Do rats generally dislike each other? I have wondered if they're just not that fond of each other.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

ahh well I don't hide the fact that Rat Daddy & I share very very different views... lol I personally find his advice on alphas and us being their alphas and all that nonsense and actually just absurd. I do not believe any of that is true in the least. It reminds me of the whole dog whisper insanity where you have to walk out the door before your dog to show them you are the alpha nonsense, which is a huge joke in the pet community and has been debunked. Animal behavior is just not that way. And even less so as pets vs wild. I mean it is your choice believe how you wish  But I would atleast consider different options.

3 months is a silly age in a rats life. From 8-12 weeks and even a bit after for some they are changing alot maturity wise. During that time some rats can be very playful and sometimes they have intense play sessions! Chasing and pinning one another. They are split between wanting to be an adult but still just like a kid, pretend they are tweens lmao 

I also want to point out that that temperament in rats is by far genetic. You can train rats to be more social, but ideally a good breeder shouldn't be training them or trying to socialize them but creating naturally sweet rats. It may suggest a bit more anxious line which may mean alittle more work for you but it could also just be their age and them being new to you as well. I wouldnt stress about it too much.

But you have only had them two weeks as well! It can be very overwhelming to go to a brand new home, with new scents, new people and the loss of their family, even though they still have one another. It may just take time to adjust. 

Girls are often very go go go, even more so at young age. They may not be very cuddly, girls do show affection in their own way. But it is usually more of a "omg hi I love you now I must go do this other thing over here" lol

But give them time and they will calm down a bit 

As for the rough behavior, most likely they just have a ton of pent up energy and really need a way to get that out. I do not believe it is a show of dominance. Right now they are directing all their energy at one another because that is what they have. Rats need ALOT of stimulation both mental and physical, females even more so, and young rats even more than that!

How often are they getting out of their cage? How long do they get to stay out? Is it them just sitting with you or do they get to run around? How interesting is the play area?

I would suggest a nice rat proof play area with lots of stuff to climb, explore, go over and under and inside. 
You can also try trick training them for good mental stimulation and to help bond them to you!
I would try to get them out quite often and if you can split it up into multiple times the better. Like once in the AM, once in the evening.

Inside the cage make sure to make it interesting as well. I would look up some DIY treat puzzles or you can buy some made for birds. Search on pinterest you will get ideas too. Also you can make stuff like rat pinatas. This will help drive their focus on to other stuff inside the cage. IDK what type of cage you have but making it more exciting by removing ramps or even shelfs and hanging perches, lava ledges, hanging baskets, ropes, etc... can really get them to climb and burn energy too. Wheels are also helpful!

Goodluck!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I agree rat temperament is mostly genetic. I just got 3 six weeks old girls this Sunday and they gave kisses within minutes of me handling them. When I got them out later that day, they were giving kisses on the lips, lol, my favorite kind of rat kisses. If their hormones make them so uncomfortable and on edge, you can spay them and it should fix most of it. Spaying rats will considerably decrease the chances of them getting tumors.


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## Rat Feng Shui (Aug 8, 2016)

*Debbie Ducommun Trust Training*

Hi, I am sorry to hear about your concerns. 

In the time I have had rats I have adopted several which had been violent. So I have seen some extremes. I have always had success with "trust training" per Debbie Ducommun. She has great rat experience and was chief advisor for the animators making the movie Ratattouille by the way. Before I knew about this forum she was a major source of advice. 

I hold out a cheerio and say "Tiffany, come here". And wait for Tiffany to come get it. She also learns her name. I do not try and push them around. Eventually Tiffany may climb up my arm. That will be a happy moment. 

By the numbers a day for a rat is a month for a human, but it took Tiffany real months before she would accept my cheerio. I will tell her story in the "meet my rats" soon. 

Good luck!


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## Rat Feng Shui (Aug 8, 2016)

Sorry, forgot to say: the wrestling and squeaking you are describing seems normal to me. I have seen a lot of rats wrestle. One pins the other one down for a time until the "point is made" then later it's the other one "winning". It's surprisingly formal for such a silly game. But they are still pals. It's great they trust you enough to fall asleep on your arm already. I agree with moonkissed about the wheel, I'd suggest a foot in diameter plastic and you can "oil" the bearing with harmless powdered graphite when they wear it out enough that it starts squeaking too much.


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> ahh well I don't hide the fact that Rat Daddy & I share very very different views... lol I personally find his advice on alphas and us being their alphas and all that nonsense and actually just absurd. I do not believe any of that is true in the least. It reminds me of the whole dog whisper insanity where you have to walk out the door before your dog to show them you are the alpha nonsense, which is a huge joke in the pet community and has been debunked. Animal behavior is just not that way. And even less so as pets vs wild. I mean it is your choice believe how you wish  But I would atleast consider different options.
> 
> 3 months is a silly age in a rats life. From 8-12 weeks and even a bit after for some they are changing alot maturity wise. During that time some rats can be very playful and sometimes they have intense play sessions! Chasing and pinning one another. They are split between wanting to be an adult but still just like a kid, pretend they are tweens lmao
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your advice  

You've really helped put my mind at ease. I thought the alpha thing was a forgone conclusion to be honest. I've been trying all sorts of methods to get them to come round, they still seem really nervous and skittish but I'm hopeful they will get better. Whilst they are out it doesn't seem to be a problem, but when they're in the cage they tend to just hide unless I leave them in there whilst I'm altering things about, or spot cleaning etc then they won't leave me alone or keep trying to get out of the cage to go exploring.

I've tried to make the cage as interesting as possible. They have an igloo, a sputnik, litter tray, a VERY large wheel (13"), balls with bells, willow sticks, hammocks, two lava ledges, perches, ropes etc. I do my best to make it interesting for them and I've done things like pinatas and veggie kebabs at random places through the cage, I've done digging boxes, they have a couple of tubes, fleece bedding (that's new and they have some in their digging box to put where they like), a Kong I fill with treats sometimes but I don't do it every night so they get bored, I have scattered their food about tonight so they have to go find it. It is very rare for the cage to be the same for more than two days in a row. When it gets to full cleaning day on Fri I will completely rearrange the cage again and NOTHING will be in the same place.

The breeder said they were sweet and they really are, but they are just a little but skittish from not being handled as much as she usually does she said. I don't know if this is normal or not because we've never had rats before. 

They usually come out at least twice a day sometimes more for at least an hour each time, in the afternoon I tend to have them in the ratoob I made, but if they come out of that they walk about on the sofa and explore a bit on there (they usually just sleep). In the evening, they either play on the entire sofa and me and husband sit on the floor and watch they don't run off to somewhere fun to explore but not rat proof, or they go in the bathroom and run about in there. I've put them boxes and places to hide and things to play with but they just seem to want to get into one bathroom cupboard that is open fronted regardless of how many other things I put out for them. I wouldn't mind, but even when I empty it it's the only place they seem to want to be!

I'd love to train them to do tricks and things but they just seem to ignore me at the minute and head for the bathroom cupboard and they won't eat treats when they're out of the cage, they just want to explore. 

I'm not actually sure what more I can do.... any more ideas?

I'd love any further advice you could give.

Thanks


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Rat Feng Shui said:


> Sorry, forgot to say: the wrestling and squeaking you are describing seems normal to me. I have seen a lot of rats wrestle. One pins the other one down for a time until the "point is made" then later it's the other one "winning". It's surprisingly formal for such a silly game. But they are still pals. It's great they trust you enough to fall asleep on your arm already. I agree with moonkissed about the wheel, I'd suggest a foot in diameter plastic and you can "oil" the bearing with harmless powdered graphite when they wear it out enough that it starts squeaking too much.


Thank you  

I didn't think the wrestling was too bad and assumed it was just playful as no one was getting hurt, but last night it looked quite harsh and our poor little Velma was getting really stressed out by it. 

I don't think they were actually asleep, but they definitely were very relaxed and snuggled in. They weren't moving around at all which had me concerned as they NEVER sit still for two mins normally lol. 

I did get some rat kisses today (or what I'm assuming people call rat kisses), Velma came up to me a few times and nosed at my mouth region or my chin after she'd climbed the cage. Daphne has been doing it for a while but that was only the 2nd time Velma has ever done it


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## jlhummel (Oct 23, 2014)

Lucozade126 said:


> ...they still seem really nervous and skittish but I'm hopeful they will get better. Whilst they are out it doesn't seem to be a problem, but when they're in the cage they tend to just hide unless I leave them in there whilst I'm altering things about, or spot cleaning etc then they won't leave me alone or keep trying to get out of the cage to go exploring.


That all sounds like pretty normal rat behavior to me.

My girls were both super sociable to start with and my two boys are really skittish. I've won them over by being patient. I started with talking to them while placing my closed fist on the floor of the cage. I didn't try to touch them, just let them come explore and sniff me. From there I opened my hand, and from there I turned my hand palm up. Once they got so comfortable with my open palm I started moving my hand just a bit to give them a tickle. It's worked pretty well. Although they still shy away a tad when i reach to pet them, they aren't running away and usually let me pet without too much fuss. Now, if we can get to the point where I can pick up and hold them without fear poops we'll be golden! LOL


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

jlhummel said:


> That all sounds like pretty normal rat behavior to me.
> 
> My girls were both super sociable to start with and my two boys are really skittish. I've won them over by being patient. I started with talking to them while placing my closed fist on the floor of the cage. I didn't try to touch them, just let them come explore and sniff me. From there I opened my hand, and from there I turned my hand palm up. Once they got so comfortable with my open palm I started moving my hand just a bit to give them a tickle. It's worked pretty well. Although they still shy away a tad when i reach to pet them, they aren't running away and usually let me pet without too much fuss. Now, if we can get to the point where I can pick up and hold them without fear poops we'll be golden! LOL


I've been doing all of that, and hand feeding them, letting them lick food from my fingers etc. They seem to be ok with that, they don't fear poo when I pick them up either, it's just picking them up without them running off that's the problem. I don't like the idea of chasing them around the cage forever more. They don't tend to come up to me voluntarily though unless I'm messing about in their cage cleaning etc, or I've already got them out.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, I'm don't consider rat alphas like wolf or dog alphas... especially in girl rats... I do use the term alpha, for lack of a better one however... We prefer the term "family rat" around my home. The family rat has the primary responsibility to do meet and greets in public, and overall tend to provide leadership to the rest. Our family rat is our most highly trained true shoulder rat and usually has the best bond with us. She has the most experience and the deepest background of understanding. And sadly, she's usually a year older than everyone else.


Cloud was a terrific family rat... and as some people might put it 'alpha'. She never bullied or pushed anyone, she simply lead the way.... When I called her, she came and Misty would follow... She would build huge nests and Misty would steal stuff from around the house for Cloud to arrange into a nest.... When Misty got rambunctious, she would jump up and down on Cloud like a trampoline... And Cloud would put up with it... And when Misty would break something, and I'd raise my voice, Cloud would come running out and attach herself to my ankle to distract me and calm me down... Cloud was very low key, she was older and slept most of the time, but she did a whole lot to maintain order. Somehow Misty became housebroken... and I'm pretty convinced Cloud showed her were she should go to the bathroom... 

As our family rat usually comes first when called, she gets first crack at food... Lucky won't come out until Misty and Bunny are already in the cage eating... In fact she won't come when called at all until one or the other rat comes... then she'll follow right behind... 

Again, I know this isn't the typical meaning of the word alpha... but most people don't get the meaning of 'family rat' or perhaps lead rat.

Social structure among female rats isn't rigid like in wolf packs... in fact sometimes when we take our girls outside each goes her own separate way depending on her interests... Some rats like to climb trees, others like to stay in dark places near the ground while others will pick a target to explore and go for it... My daughter and I usually use a zone management technique with multiple rats. Keeping all of the rats more or less between us and devoting the most attention to the less experienced or most active rat. Sometimes they do explore in packs, but that's far from a given, when a girl gets it into her head to go somewhere or do something, she doesn't wait for another rats approval.

Our family rats unfortunately age out. Misty started out by bullying Bunny and then Lucky, which was a really bad strategy... Bunny is younger, stronger and way more agile and she defended Lucky her daughter... Then she'worked on out-competing and outplaying them... And she looked drawn, tired and exhausted most of the time... She's healthy and strong, but this strategy was killing her fast, she was losing weight fast. Now she's finally more comfortable just leading them and letting them do their own things more and she's finally gaining some weight back. She's learning to be more of an aunt or great aunt than a boss and there's a lot of harmony in the house now.

Because our family rats are usually older and physically weaker than the other rats they require support from us... 

I use the term human alpha pretty much to indicate head of family or parent. People who tend to keep their rats in cages or in indoor play areas, don't see the same level of human and rat interaction as those of us who work with rats in dangerous situations. Like soldiers in fox holes, there is a very close bond between trainer and rat. And a lot of communication going both ways. And believe it or not, lots of arguments between what the trainer wants and what the rat wants... And I have scratches all over my body to prove just how uncomfortable some of these disagreements can get... But in life or death situations, the human has to be in charge, when it's time to go home, the rat doesn't get to say he or she wants to play another hour or two or take a long nap up some tree. The line between trainee and trainer gets blurry pretty fast when a rat becomes outdoor competent. And the distinction between human and rat begins to become strangely less relevant, especially to the rat. Fuzzy Rat liked to take walks at the park, and she would come to us and ask her to follow us, that might seem normal, I suppose as she was an older rat at the time... but she would also round up the stoney teenagers and get them to follow her and when one straggled off she would wait for them go get back into the pack formation. A crowd of a dozen or so stoned teens doesn't move very fast, so she would herd them and lead them and wait for them... The fact that they were being lead around by a rat wasn't lost on the kids either... they found it hysterical as much as I did. And we would always wind up in the parking lot where the teens liked to hang out anyway, and Fuzzy Rat would get her skritches and be the center of attention... As far as me, yes I suppose I'm older, but stoned teens are actually a lot of fun to hang out with.... they're funny to someone who has been there and done that decades ago. In all reality, I had a blast and there were always girls in the 'pack' that enjoyed playing with my daughter, so Emily had fun too. My point is that rats don't necessarily see the distinction between rat and human and oddly either do stoned teens. Fuzzy Rat sort of became part of their crowd and even a leader of sorts... And the moment the young people turned up at the park in the evening, Fuzzy Rat headed straight for them to greet them... And sometimes the kids would bring their friends down to "meet the rat". By the end of the summer the gathering was even large enough to warrant a cop car lurking at the far side of the parking lot... A grey haird guy. a little girl, a crowd of teens and a rat, I've got to wonder what the cop was thinking...

So yes, because of our experiences, I don't draw a clean line between human and rat and rather prefer to view it as a mixed family. Yes different members have different rolls, and sometimes those rolls get pretty fluid. But never the less I'm the dad.

I'm not sure how that compared with how dog trainers do it, but that's what I mean about social structure with rats...

How do I support the family rat? Well first of all if our older family rat is getting pushed around or bullied because she's older and weaker, I do step in right away. Usually I can just shout "Girls stop fighting!" and that will restore order, but if it gets worse, I'll get hands on and back down the younger rat. And no, I don't support our family rat bullying the other rats, if she gets out of line, I'll jump in and admonish her too. When I have treats, each rat gets treats equally, but usually the family rat gets her treat first, mostly because she comes when called first but when multiple rats show up at the same time Misty gets first treat... I'm not withholding treats or affection from anyone, just doing it in order of status.

By supporting the family rat she can maintain her status long after she can physically defend it. Amelia was twice Fuzzy Rat's size and perfectly agile when Fuzzy Rat became disabled and couldn't walk... and when Amelia became overly assertive we had to back her down a few times... And it worked a treat.. Amelia groomed Fuzzy Rat when she couldn't groom herself and didn't try and steal her food or push her around. We were able to maintain social order and status long after Fuzzy Rat couldn't do it for herself. And yes, she would take advantage of that, Fuzzy Rat would swipe Amelia's food and when she couldn't run away with it she would squeak for help to protect the food she had stolen... and yes, right or wrong, I did it.

As a rat parent, you can't allow bullying by any of your rats... and young rats do play aggressively, which is normal and good... I don't get involved when I see Lucky riding Misty around the house... It's just play and if Misty couldn't handle it, she'd come to me for help. Some day she most likely will. But when things get ugly and you have to back one side or the other, it's best to back your established family rat or "alpha" if you prefer. Having a situation where all of your rats are fighting all of the time is just awful and someone has to become your family rat so peace can reign in your home. Again, that doesn't give your family rat the right to beat up your other rats, but it hopefully eliminates the constant challenging and jockeying for position that can accompany a power struggle. 

Mostly supporting your family rat is a subtle process, and it doesn't mean undermining your relationship with your other rats or withholding affection or treats from them... A really good family rat doesn't bully but leads, which is also true of a good human rat parent. 

Lastly, sometimes certain rats just aren't up to being the family rat... When Fuzzy Rat passed away Amelia couldn't step up. She had been adopted as an older rat and had always been submissive to her roommates. And as Fuzzy Rat did everything and went everywhere and pretty much lead Amelia around, she became very introverted when Fuzzy Rat passed away. Max was only a pup, but she was hand raised and infinitely spoiled. And when she didn't get her way she bit Amelia hard. Backing Max was the only smart play. Amelia continued to live her life mostly reclusively and Max stepped up and ruled with an iron paw... She always wanted first treats, first food and top billing when we were outdoors... She wasn't the best family rat, but by backing Max, the fighting between her and Amelia and later between her and Cloud ended. Max died of tumors... and she maintained her status literally until she fell over unconscious and died with very little support form us.

I don't know how this relates to dog training, I don't follow dog whisperers. Likely, there may be some similarity, but rats are metacognative, they think differently than dogs. Rats also have a much more fluid social structure than wolves, but they do have a social structure. 

My own experience leads me to believe that the human parent or 'alpha' is integral to a good family dynamic with rats. And yes, some people can and do argue that wild rats don't need human rat parents or human alphas... and this is very true... but when rats live in a human domestic situation the rules are different. 

And lastly I'd like to pose this question to those folks that enjoy logical thought questions... How can we perceive God? As humans we can't conceive of what we can't experienced or think thoughts that humans can't think or feel emotions in any other way than a human can... Similarly a rat can't think human thoughts or perceive what it is to be human. To a human the hightest level of thought is... well naturally human; to a rat the highest level of thought is... well rat. A rat can't perceive humans as human, because it isn't human... So the very best a rat can do is to see humans... well as great big smart rats... like we might see God as a great powerful omnipotent and loving... human. And when humans love god, it's human love, not divine love, (the way God can love us) so when a rat loves it's human it's rat love... When we try to predict what God will do or like, we tend to think about what a really great human might like or support, likewise when a rat sees us it expects us to react like a great and powerful rat would...

Pretty much a rat has to see us in it's mental framework like we have to see superior beings in ours. It isn't possible to impose out thinking on a rat, but it is possible to work within a rats framework of understanding to establish an integral social structure that benefits everyone...

And by the way, I'm not promoting God, any particular god, religion or any belief or lack thereof... I only used God as an example many people might understand to be intellectually superior or otherwise more advanced to ourselves... If you prefer, you can insert 'advanced aliens' where I wrote God if that makes more sense to someone.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I just thought to add...

I just wanted to agree that rat behavior is at least in part genetic. But that's not something that the average rat owner can do much about... That's the kind of thing that concerns breeders, for the most part, rat owners don't get to know their rats very well before they adopt them and that part of their personality isn't something they can fix.... 

I do also generally agree that they rats are more likely playing than actually fighting. But to some degree rats also play to establish social order. 

There's no debate that rats are social animals.. So if there's society there has to be some order in it... otherwise it isn't society. That's by definition. The question may therefore become, "How important is social order?" And the answer is, "It's as important as water." when you are drowning, water availability is your lowest possible concern, but when you are in a desert, it become critical.

When your rats are getting along and are well socialized, it's not something you would need or want to think about, when you have chaos and you and some of your rats are sprouting blood it becomes top priority. 

Will your rats establish their own social order? Most likely yes. Can you help it along and help to better maintain it, also yes. When do you need to intervene? When things get bloody, for sure; when things get hostile for too long, some intervention goes a long way and if it's only friendly play, it's best off to just let things go... 

My problem is, I don't know if the OP is freaking out over nothing or if there is a real problem that needs immediate intervention. Some people won't go to an emergency room if they are still conscious, while others will go for a runny nose. My suggestion to start backing the rat most likely to be the natural leader will help to facilitate a more rapid and stable peace. 

And yes Moonkissed and I do tend to have different approaches... I think she works more with rats that have been bred for nicer temperaments and have been better treated and raised before she got them... My experience is to a large part with part wild, neglected and abused and pet shop rats... In other words genetic mystery soup. Some rats were great from the start, some were quirky and other's might have been genetically predisposed to tearing me apart. But to be honest, we haven't met a rat that didn't become a great friend and wonderful pet when properly socialized. Yes, some have been less charming and some stayed quirky, and one was always vicious to strangers, but they all became good responsible family members once they understood their roles in the family unit.

One of these rats was a recent wild rat back cross and would rip you to pieces if she didn't know you and you tried to touch her, the other was the most domestic rat we've ever had and loved to meet strangers. And they were roommates...










Either way, this is what proper socialization looks like. And yes.. that's my then 6 year old daughter holding a totally vicious rat, with the worst temperamental genetics you could imagine. As to who was alpha between them... Most likely the domestic rat was the family rat, but no one was stupid enough to upset the wild child, including me... My daughter could stuff her into doll clothes, but I would put my hand down and call her up and she just about always came when called... even I wasn't dumb enough to grab her. When she lost her cool, she bit to the bone and tore flesh out... otherwise she was the nicest rat you ever met as long as you didn't upset her idea of what the world should look like.

Genetics might be important and you can't change a rats core personality, but as you can see from the photo, you can do a whole lot with a rat that isn't born friendly.


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## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Well that took some reading lol. I've immersed them, they're definitely more friendly since then, they do come and get treats etc, they'll happily climb into my top, or as I found out the other day have hour long snuggles which in itself was unprecedented. I'm almost certain they have learned their names, they just ignore me for the most part when I call them, even though I've been training them to "name come on" when I call them. If they're out they're fine, but once they're in the cage they seem to become skittish again. After a LOT of persevering they will eventually come to me, but not all the time.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats aren't like dogs and don't do commands like dogs do, they are metacognative and they pretty much take your commands as suggestions.... If there is a treat in it for them, your command is likely to seem more appropriate, if they are having fun playing or exploring and you are trying to command them back into their cage... well, you are obviously confused, so they won't listen to you. 

When I try and get my rats to do something they definitely don't want to do, they have perfected the "Daddy, you have lost your mind" look.... So when I say...."Vermin, bring back my snickers bar" they will glance back with..."daddy have you lost your mind?" and scurry on twice as fast... They know exactly what I'm saying... and they are doing the exact opposite on purpose. And that's pretty much what metacognative means...

Otherwise, it sounds like you are making really good progress. I know I went over a lot of stuff about social order, but for the most part, that's going to fall into place naturally as time goes on... One rat is going to be more of a natural leader and crave your attention more and you are going to just feel better about one rat being your second... And even parents have their favorite kids that they rely on more, even if they don't admit it... Some rats and kids enjoy less responsibility and less attention and more freedom, and over time you will get a feel for who is who.

Keep up the great work and best luck.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

By the way, sometimes I do go into a little extra detail, in a reply, because it saves me the time in starting a new post to clarify something to people who might be reading along. My natural tendency is to short hand a reply, and then some weeks later I get a message that starts out with "You said...." and then I have to back peddle to explain something I really didn't explain at the time... 

For example, when people ask about Alpha rats, I tend to respond with the same term... and that can be confusing to many people who are thinking alpha dog or alpha wolf... I know I've explained the difference in my use of the terms a few times over the years, but some people don't read all of the archives (and I can't blame them) so every now and then I go over it again... The immersion concept of social order isn't the same as a dog trainer might use, there are similarities and differences... it's definitely less structured. But the dog people have all the cool TV shows so sometimes people can get a little confused about what I'm saying because I use similar terminology. 

As to a remark someone made about always leading your dog.... here's an example...

https://vid.me/BzNQ 

This is Fuzzy Rat clearly leading me...and waiting for me to catch up. Technically, I was the parent or alpha, but when I suggested we go back to the car, she was happy to take the lead and I followed. As her parent, or alpha, I promoted her self confidence and competence... That's what a good rat parent, rat trainer or alpha does. Maybe it doesn't work with dogs, but communication and competence are cornerstones in our training program. 

Good rat trainers use social structure and pack bonding to their advantage, but I don't mean it's the same process that someone would use for a different animal. We just lack our own vocabulary to explain what we mean better.


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