# Kakushi--cancer--gone



## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

ok, so last night i finally figured out why kakushi seemed off. the last few days she's just not been herself, but she didn't show any signs of illness other then some foofed up fur (which i thought might be caused by the mites we are treating for as a couple of the others did the same thing). but the night before last she really looked thin as was lethargic. i fed her some ensure and baby cerel which she gobbled up and checked her breathing which was fine. i was concerned that her fatty desposit lump was actually a malignant tumor for a bit but then last night she started to circle and tumble over herself! i was so relieved! she's still sick but at least its treatable. once i knew what i was looking for i noticed a very SLIGHT head tilt as well. 

anyway, now that i know its an inner ear infection (and she already has an appointment for the vet monday morning) i need to know what i should be giving her. i know the basic abs are going to be prescribed most likely (doxy and baytril) but i was wondering if there is a better ab that other people have used for this sort of thing? and i heard that steroids are recommended in some cases as well. should i push for some and what type? i'm not sure if age makes a difference in medications but she was born may 3 2006 so she is 19 months. she is also on ivermectin for the mites, she has her last dose next thursday, should i not give it to her because of the other meds she will be on or should she be ok with it?


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

When Gir had his head tilt the doc prescribed Baytril and a mild steroid. Gir still has tilt but survives even though he is pretty much sideways.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

Watch for signs of confusion and difficulty grasping with those front paws. She is at the prime age for PT. 

This is from ratguide for inner ear infection

_For Systemic Treatment:
Begin long term systemic therapy for 3-6 weeks, with broad spectrum antibiotics such as enrofloxacin, doxycycline , amoxicillin , chloramphenicol, or azithromycin.
If combination antimicrobial therapy is required, the following may be used:
enrofloxacin and doxycycline
enrofloxacin and amoxicillin
enrofloxacin and chloramphenicol
azithromycin and doxycycline

In addition, systemic corticosteroids such as prednisone may be given. Corticosteroids along with a systemic antibiotic should be started as soon as clinical signs of the illness first begin. Doing so can help to decrease the chance of the head tilt becoming permanent.

*Note: The use of a corticosteroid either topically or systemically can aid in reducing exudate and tissue growth as well as relieve itching. Its use may predispose to yeast infections; however, the benefit in many cases with rats far outweighs the risk. If yeast is present or of concern, the Vet may choose to include a topical or systemic antifungal medication (already included in some topical medications) such as ketoconazole or metronidazole. _


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

I third all the above.

Usual treatment for my vet is to prescribe a long term course of Baytril with an long acting anti-inflammatory injection (he doesn't use Dex, but it's similar to Prednisone but 'a little more potent' I forget the name, sorry).


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

thank you for your replies. 

at first i thought it may be a PT too but its not presenting that way. she has not been herself for a few days before now but no clear signs of illness. its hard to explain really, i just knew something was not quite right with her but could not place why. then last night she started spinning and i noticed the head tilt. i was very relieved. i have gone through a PT before but though similar it still wasn't quite right. the illness didn't JUST appear, like i said she seemed off for a few days before this. and she has no weakness, she grasps my fingers and holds things just as strongly as ever though a bit tilted. she is very tired though and sleeps a lot. i figure this is because she is ill and its taking her energy from her like any other illness. she being extra sookie too, wanting to be with me and have me hold her much more then she ever did before, but again i chalk this up to her not feeling well. hopefully the meds she gets tomorrow will make her feel better quickly. how long does it normally take to notice an improvement after the meds are started?

anyway, i'm off to wash up the kid then try to get kaku to drink some more ensure and maybe get some food in her as well. i'll keep everyone updated on her progress but because of her illness and school starting up tomorrow as well i will only be able to breeze through here. if there is any trouble or concerns please make sure to pm modreport and we'll make sure to take care of as quickly as possible. thank you very much for your patience, i know sometimes we're a little slower in getting to things then other forums.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

Hopefully, if she's given anti-inflammatories/steroids, the effect should be noticable within hours (that's usually the rule with my vet anyhow - I usually give it 24 hours anyway before judging).

Antibiotics may take a few days.

Mind you though, I've not had an inner ear infection to clear up for a while so can't really remember. I'm sure the pros will know


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

Speaking personally from having an inner ear infection. It's ****.

It's like being drunk, but much much cheaper.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

yeah, she sure does look miserable. she spent the evening with me and ate quite a bit too. 4 mls of ensure then another 2 mls of baby food plus some from the bowl. she also ate some watermelon and most of a strawberry during the day. she hasn't touched her normal food but i think the other fod probably tastes better anyway....


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

you may just be spoiling her. She doesn't seem to be complaining though.

And I'm betting more than anything that if you had to eat regular food all day, nearly every day you'd enjoy strawberries/watermellons/greens/ensure, you wouldn't want to go back.

Also, next time I plan to actually make the salad from scratch, no more spring mix. I don't know what I was thinking when I said "yes" to justin. Nah, I'm just kidding, the spring mix was all right, but I'd still like to make it from scratch, I tend to put more love into a meal when I make it from the ground up. Instead of taking it from a package.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi's inner ear infection-suggestions please*

ok, so back from the vets = really craptastic news. its not an inner ear infection, there is nothing wrong with her ears at all, or anything else that the vet can see either. she gave me this really long mostly latin name for it but what it sums up to is they don't know exactly why she's sick but the vet suspects malignant cancer in the brain. she thinks the brain because of the spinning actually. see kakushi's head is tilted to the left but she spins right. the vet said that if it was an inner ear problem she would be spinning the same way as her head is tilted... 

i did not want this diagnosis. i was so relieved when she started spinning because i thought, yes! something that can be treated and she can be back to normal soon. before the spinning i had thought cancer/PT maybe. those didn't seem to fit quite as well as i thought they should but as it turns out... i still don't think its a PT as the eyes still look fine and it came gradually. but i can concede that there may be a lesion or tumor elsewhere in the brain to cause her symptoms. 

so for now, we're doing palliative care until she tells us to stop. i'm not sure how we will be able to work the every 2 hour feedings around the clock but we'll figure something out. i did it when my son was an infant, i'm sure i can do it for kakushi (though admittedly i didn't have university classes to go to in the morning). she has problems eating on her own so we'll be syringe feeding her instead, though i'm going to leave the bowl in her cage in case she wants to try. hopefully the predisone will help her some and she'll feel better enough to do that for herself at least. she has issues with keeping her balance because of the tilt so i help her clean herself and help her stay steady. she can still grasp things fine and there is no club paw but she's having trouble getting her head to move where she wants it to go so she can eat. when i try to hold her head for her, she drops the food so i hold that too (and she'll bite at my fingers trying to pull it out...). 

anyway, when i get the chance i'll keep everyone updated on her progress. i hope she'll be brave and strong and stay at least a little longer but i will not blame her if she decides she wants to quit as early as tomorrow. it can't be pleasant to have to go through all this. and her dignity and pride must be getting damaged by all the help she has to get from me just to eat, something she was quite sure to tell you about if you injured her pride before (that may be why she's biting at my fingers to drop the food....). but we'll see how she does in the morning and the following days. please send her some soothing vibes if you have any to spare.


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## Meliss (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

Yes please give us updates. I hope she gets better. Its always hard


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## Meliss (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

Yes please give us updates. I hope she gets better. Its always hard to watch a pet go through anything like that. I know when I had a dog she had epilepsy and it was hard to watch her have seizures.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

my best of wishes and luck to kakushi, here's holding strong that she'll keep this together and do her best.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

It does sound like a PT sadly. Which is the most common brain tumour.

Steroid and abs will help a lot. 

I am sorry for one so young.


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

Oh Twitch.... I'm so sorry . This was not the kind of news you needed. Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your girl, hopefully she'll be comfortable with you for as long as possible.


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## Emster (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

I'm so sorry to hear about Kakushi, twitch


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

Dude ... what more can I say? I'm sorry 

Don't give up just yet, she may have some surprises for you up her sleeve. Hope is never a bad thing...

I'll ask my bunch to send extra good vibes to little Kakushi


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi-- not inner ear infection- cancer instead*

ok, wo its the second day after the diagnosis and we've already had some up and downs. that night after giving Kaku her meds she really perked up and ate THREE bowls of ensure and baby pablum.

the next day was bad for both of us though. she didn't really want to eat much and some feedings she wouldn't eat at all, even after the meds. but to top that off i had a stomach virus and for some reason a bunch of nose bleeds on top of it. i tell ya we made quite the pair. we spent the entire day mostly dosing on the couch watching the history channel (its rome week too so some interesting stuff). 

last night i also brought out violet, kakushi's best friend in the cage. i'm not sure kaku was enjoying vi's attentions or was too tired to give a dang but she bruxxed some and boggled some with violet there, so i'll assume she was happy. mind you she boggled a lot last night and i'm concerned it was not all about happiness but at least some was because she was in pain. 

what was really concerning me though was, that during all that time i had her out with me (8-9 hours at least) she only peed once (and that was all over herself too). i figured where she wasn't eating much and because she now won't take from a bowl at all and so wasn't drinking if she wasn't eating, then she was going to defecate and urinate less but 9 hours? 

that was yesterday. i was concerned she was in pain and was starting to give up. but today, or at least this morning, she was ubber active, walking all over the couch, trying to explore the blankets that block off the ends of the couch and of course give me a heart attack by repeatedly trying to get a look at the floor only to start to fall off until i make a mad grab for her. and of course before she even touched her food she peed all over me and a big ol' poop. she only ate 3-4 mls of ensure and baby pablum but she seemed much happier and livelier. so, i'm marking up yesterday as a bad day and am looking forward to what the rest of today has to offer us. 

thank you everyone for your kind words and concern, i have passed all the messages on to kakushi as well and if this morning is any indication its working.


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## Nenn (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

Good luck with the little one  I hope she gets better


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

Once in 9 hours? hmm. To me, that says she may be dehydrated (have you done a scruff test?) but to be honest, I don't know. 

I don't know how much help I can be, but I'll tell you what I did with Katie so maybe you can draw your own conclusions?

If Katie was on Ensure (only) I would give her 6-8mls 4/5 times a day. If she was on babyfood mixed with water, she would usually take anywhere between 10-15ml in one feeding. She would peepee every couple of hours, and it would be a substantial amount, so I was fairly certain she was well hydrated. I read a book recently which says that daily water intake for rats is approx 20-30ml (although you'll probably need less if they're less active etc) or a little more if you're mixing with food.

Poop - eh. Well babyfood and Ensure is mainly liquid, so there's not going to be much solid waste. 9 hours does sound a long while, but if she's not been eating much then I guess that could be expected. Katie never usually pooped more than 4 or 5 times a day - and even then it was a couple of pellets at a time. 


I've probably been very useless and confusing, but it's something to compare to at least =/ Sorry I couldn't give more

Good luck 

*Hugs*


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## Meliss (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

Did you try giving her fruit with juices--- that might help with dehydration--- I know when Ira was sick--with an ear infection--- I gave him watermelon, or cantaloupe things with juices--- because he wasn't drinking a lot.


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## Meliss (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

Did you try giving her fruit with juices--- that might help with dehydration--- I know when Ira was sick--with an ear infection--- I gave him watermelon, or cantaloupe things with juices--- because he wasn't drinking a lot. Keeping positive thoughts for your little one. Thats one thing I gotta say keep positive thoughts, Kakushi might surprise you. Ira sure did--its like the ear infection didn't even happen. He does have one damaged nerve from his ear infection though.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

she won't eat solid foods, i just don't think she can anymore. we tried some toast yesterday but she wasn't able to get very much at all, most of it she was just scrapping off to be crumbs on my lap, i don't think she got much into her. 

maybe i will try the baby food and water instead of mixing it with ensure to get her better hydrated. but yesterday i really think was just a bad day for her. she seems better today. MUCH more active. i'm actually about to try giving her another feeding and its time for her meds, so that should perk her up some too. 

as for getting better, i know that won't happen. she will have her bad days and her good days and eventually she will have more bad days then good. she'll never again be the kakushi of just a couple weeks ago. she's not the queen of the colony anymore, she can't even be in the big cage with the others because she's too unstable. she's quieter now, she needs me now, something she was always proud to show me that i wasn't needed before but was nice to have. she accepts my help now, something she would refuse on principle before. she's still my kakushi, but she's different now too and won't be like she was ever again. 

i know she's dieing, and i accept that. i will help her to live as long as she wants to but i know we're fighting a losing battle too. now, i'm happy with her having some good days and times, some time to enjoy some lovings and a bit of spoiling before she goes to meet her mom and aunts at the bridge. i'm sure she'll be very happy to meet pocket, lyiint and sweet-ums and to see spider, dust, myght, nezumi and her mother Iedani once again. not too sure if she'll be happy to see snicketts again, i think the only rat that would have been happy to see snicketts would be have been her sister spider. snicketts was a bit of an odd one and rather testy if anything was out of place... in any case i know that when she does pass she will be well taken care of while they wait for me. i'm not looking forward to her passing but i know she will be ok too.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

She's in her 'new life' now, one where you and her connected in only ways sickness can connect two people. Just accept the good with the bad, enjoy the good, comfort her through the bad and just help her wind down slowly. You're doing all you can, more than many ever would. Well done


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- UPDATE jan 9 am*

i'm glad i can help her but seeing a once so very proud rat being reduced to things she never would have accepted before, well its very sad to watch. 

and i guess they are right when they say cancer affects everyone differently. lilspaz showed me ariel's place in ratguide where it describes the symptoms of her PT. though Kakushi shares some of the same symptoms it certainly isn't all of them. she lost weight fast and did feel oddly light (though with the regular feedings that feeling is getting less and less). but she has never clubbed her paws or lost the ability to grasp things. her problem when holding things is that she falls over when she tries to lift it up. the reason she can't seem to manage solid foods is because her mouth doesn't want to cooperate right anymore. and i don't think she is confused about where things are, but rather is having problems getting her body to listen to what she wants to do. its this problem with the control of her body that i give her her food by syringe instead of just a bowl. her head wobbles and it make it difficult for her to get her food out of the bowl. though she does get impatient waiting for me to fill the syringe too and will try anyway, this normally just results in her moving the food around in the bowl rather then get much in her mouth. 

when Lyiint had her PT it seemed much closer to Ariel's battle with it. she was very confused about things, lost ability of her front paws and started dragging herself around, she also had one larger eye then other and it was VERY sudden. i had handled and played with in the late morning then in the early afternoon she was a completely different rat and seemed so light and thin (she was a proper fatty before). Lyiint scared the crud out of me, and i thought, because it was so sudden it was a stroke but she never improved, by the time i was able to get a vet to see her she was suffering so much that i had her put down then and there. but she never did any spinning either. 

i guess it really doesn't matter what type of brain cancer it is in the end and that even the same cancers can certainly affect different rats and people in different ways. but as morbid as it may sound it is interesting the different affect she is having then Lyiint and Ariel. 

as to how she is feeling this afternoon though, she's continuing her active streak though she has seemed to calm down from trying to give me a heart attack with her death-defying quasi-leaps from the couch and settled instead on cuddle bug, which is rather nice. 

at her feeding after my last post she ate 2 mls of ensure and another 3 mls of baby cereal with water. the feeding i just gave her before logging on she ate another 2 mls of ensure and i lost count of the mls of baby food she ate at 6 but she has a few more after that (i was distracted by my son when i was trying to keep count). it seems as the day goes on she gets hungrier or at least willing to eat more. 

right now she's asleep in the crook of the couch. i think she may have tired herself out with her bath (something she has only been halfheartedly attempting the last couple days) that she went full-hog on. her balance is still off quite a bit but she isn't spinning as much and even stood up for a few seconds before she toppled over. 

all in all it seems like today is a good day. if she's still feeling like this after my son goes to bed i'll see if she would appreicate a visit from violet, stewart, tween or sweetipie (the four she hangs out with the most in the cage).


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- mini-UPDATE --today is a good day*

ok, so we just had another feeding session and some of the old kakushi is back! she got ticked off with the syringe and STOLE it from me then attacked the food in the food dish like there was no tomorrow. of course, she's wearing a good deal of it and of course she decided i was her towel too... she refuses to let me help her wash herself too. everytime i put my hand out to steady her she stops and waits for me to remove my hand before trying to clean herself again (and of course promptly fall over...). now she's trying to decide whether she wants to nap on my lap or would rather type some.... it seems like the lap is comfier... 

the sad news here is that one eye is now larger then the other. i guess this makes very little difference in the long run but it does show that the pressure in her skull is getting worse if her eye is starting to bulge. the difference is still only slight but its a reminder that this conditioning is worsening and will continue to do so. 

aw! she's bruxxing! and its happy bruxxing too! well the condition may be getting worse but she sure doesn't care!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer-- mini-UPDATE--today is a good day*

 aw twitch! When times are good, they're really good, huh?

Go Kakushi!


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 11*

the update for this afternoon: its just before feeding time and afterwards i have house cleaning to do that will keep me pretty busy, along with a sick kid and homework. so figuring i might not be able to get back on tonight i thought i'd give everyone an update. 

i wasn't home much yesterday and was only able to give poor kaku a quick cuddle before bed. her nurse that day was the boyfriend and he's a bit hard ot get details from. but what he said was that she was doing well and eating well too. he was a little grossed out when she peed on him and confused when i was so happy about that. she seems to be peeing and pooping fine now. we've moved her feedings back to about every three hours because she would often skip eating at a feeding. the three hour feedings has her eating more regularly and more overall, so we're happy with that. of course he didn't give many other stories of how active she was or what she did other then how she was eating and relieving herself on him. 

this morning my son was sick too. i was trying to talk to him while giving kakushi her meds and i goofed rather badly... while distracted i tried to pull on the syringe as it was stuck. yep, the open bottle was still in my hand too. the syringe let go, jerked the bottle and i got some pred as a perfume for the day... as if that wasn't enough though, still being distracted by the sick kid i go to put the syringe down after administration and catch the open bottle with my finger, dumping the majority of it all over the blanket covering the chair... she has enough for another dose or two but i will have to go get more. 

as to her condition today, it seems to have leveled off to mildly interested in what's going on, but content to cuddle and wash herself (refusing all my help still too!  )she didn't want to eat all that much at breakfast only 4mls of babyfood and ensure mixed together. but i was told she nearly finished the bowl that the boyfriend fed her for second breakfast (and he makes rather full bowls too). so i'd guess at maybe 10-12mls. we'll see how she does for 1st lunch in a minute.

but i was wondering, has anyone else noticed that they feed better at night then during the day? it seems that kakushi is much more lively later at night (which makes sense as that's when rats are normally more active) and eats much better then as well. would this be related to the natural cycle of rats as well? i guessing so but i'm not sure if i'm the only one that has noticed this or this has happened with their cancer patient rats.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 11*

Good news  she's getting into a routine now

Regarding eating more at night; Katie's best feedings were always at night (between 9pm-1am and early in the morning when I got up at 6am - I didn't feed during the night). She never tended to eat much during the day - token jestures and sometimes it was a bit of a fight to get her to have all allocated mls. You could probably even not feed as much during the day, and she'll make up for it at night.

Probably related to natural cycles - we wouldn't be able to eat a dinner sized portion in the middle of the night lol

Good luck with her - give her lots of cuddles from me and El Rattos


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 13--tiring out?*

she seems to be tiring out now. she's sleeping MUCH more and her appetite is going down. she used to be very greedy and just shovel the food down. you knew she was hungry. the last couple days, she hasn't really been doing that and i feel that half the food i give her is being forced and only accepted because she's too tired to fight me on it. 

yesterday i had her with me all day. she was pooping and peeing fine but all she wanted to do was sleep. the best feeding i could get her to take was 5mls at 1st breakfast, after that she'd either not have anything at all or eat only 2-3 mls. she spent the majority of the day pinning me down by my neck, sleeping. it was nice to cuddle like that but bittersweet because i know she's fading. 

today, she's the same. i was able to force 7 mls in her at 1st breakfast, then she would not eat 2nd breakfast, could only get 2 mls in for lunch and 1 ml in for 2nd lunch. i'll be giving her supper soon and i really hope she eats more. she's asleep in her cage now because i wanted to see if she might just eat some on her own (overnight she finished the bowl i had left in there). it doesn't look like she touched it this time though. 

she doesn't seem to be in pain, but she doesn't seem very interested in much anymore. she's happy to sleep on my neck, when i pet and talk to her she bruxxes (maybe boggles too but i can't see under my chin). i don't think she's suffering but she has me worried. she's still eating some but it looks like she's starting to tire of the battle already. i'm not sure if i should be taking her in now or letting her just sleep


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 13--tiring out?*

Poor Kakushi, poor you  I'm sorry

Only you can make the decision that needs to be made. If she's still happy enough, and you're happy hand feeding etc - then I can't see a reason why she should need to be helped now. If she really wants to go - she'll let you know. 

I'm sorry you have to go through this - you know I've been there myself and I questioned my decisions so many times then and now - but I'm sure I made the correct ones in the long run. You need to follow your gut - that's all the advise I can give

Good luck, chin up *hugs*


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 13--tiring out?*

This actually sounds really deeply saddening, and nearly depressing to see. This is more to go through then what's needed. However, .. you know, I really don't see a clear side to this, I can only give my best of wishes for a fantastic after there on.

I'm sorry twitch, this sounds rough.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 13--tiring out?*

I am sorry twitch. If you don't sense any pain just a her life wearing down, you just let her stay where she wants to be...with you, on your neck. Get used to having a rattie necklace for a little longer.

She will let you know when she's had enough, she will stop eating and drinking, and soon after the clock will stop. If you sense anything else or she develops a URI then take her in for some help. At this point she is eating more _for _you than because she's too weak to fight you.

Btw on the different symptoms aspect....I've been thru PT so many times now and each one has had similar but different symptoms. Maya my other PT rat on ratguide had some very very different symptoms altogether. You just never know. 

((hugs)) to you and ((cuddles)) to Kakushi


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 13--tiring out?*

thank you for your kind words. we both appreciate your concern. she didn't eat any better in later meals but she did eat a little bit each time. 

but i have a question about bruxxing and PTs. what i've read said that the PT don't normally cause pain, is this true? causing pressure enough that affects motor skills and such, well it sounds like it should hurt. about bruxxing, i know it typically means that they are happy, like a cat purring, but is it also like a cat that it can signify pain as well? tonight, kaku was curled up beside me and she started bruxxing, waited a bit then bruxxed again. i wasn't petting her, or talking to her. she was just laying there. i'm not sure if it was a sign of pain or if she was just generally happy to be out and laying on me. she's wearing down, and i'll stay by her side for as long as it takes but i don't want her to be in pain. if it is a sign of pain, should i get her some metacam or should i help her across? i don't want to make her hang on more then she wants to but i don't want to send her off before she's ready either.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--bruxing-pain or happy? advice?*

Katie bruxed all the time - mostly when she was laying on my chest when I was in bed, she just lay there and bruxed and bruxed. Sometimes she would do it for no apparent reason and just lay and bruxed- sometimes if she wanted to be fed, she'd decided that the easiest method of communication was to brux to get attention. Plus, of course, there was stroking bruxing (and boggling). I guess it'll be different with every one - but as far as i saw, there was no pain for her. I couldn't imagine her hanging around as long as she did if she was in pain. Perhaps your Kakushi is similar?

I don't know in general, although I am learning. I can only try compare Kakushi to my experiences. I'm sorry I can't be more help =/


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--bruxing-pain or happy? advice?*

well kaku is sure full of ups and downs. though i'm still concerned about what exactly the bruxxing for no reason is saying she's got her appetite back this morning. she at 12 mls for breakfast and it was only the last 2 mls that she seemed like she was taking it but not really wanting it. i'll be at school all morning and everyone else is at work so she will have to miss second breakfast, which will mean 6 hours between feedings, i hope she doesn't regress during that time. i wish i could stay home with her or take her with me but neither is possible. stupid school... *grumble grumble*

though she's eating a bit more again her attitude seems much the same. her condition hasn't gotten much worse though she's almost completely walking on one side now her ability to grasp things is still strong (though she does not show much interest in doing so) and so is all her legs. she's just severely tilted. this morning she was powering along climbing (with some assistance)all over me and the chair, then she would stop for a quick cat nap before she was off again. she looked VERY disgruntled when i had to put her back in her cage, i don't think she was done cuddling and walking around... :lol:


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--bruxing-pain or happy? advice?*

I think the bruxxing, and if your rat exhibits the headbumping, it is an unconscious reflex. A reaction to the pressure in their head. But they also do it when they are cuddling with you. Pained/stressed bruxxing is much more grinding and their eyes are usually strained and unhappy.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--bruxing-pain or happy? advice?*

well it certainly didn't seem unhappy or strained there just didn't seem to be a reason for it. i'll take it as either being happy or involuntary then but watch for signs of strain just in case. thanks for clearing that up some. i just got home from school and am about to try giving her her lunch. keep your fingers crossed that she eats lots again! i will be back on later tonight to let everyone know how she's faired for the day.


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 14 after school*

*gentle scritches* She's such a special girl Twitch, and I'm so happy that she has had you in her life. I remember when she and Amelia were just babies playing together, and it's hard to believe how my Amelia is gone and your girl has aged . I'm hoping for a few more good days for your baby. *hugs*









This is how I want to always remember our two precious little girls.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 14 after school*

wow, she was so small once. and she grew to be a match for a male... *shakes head and laughs* that was such a great picture of her, thanks for posting it, i think i needed to see it. 

the improvement in her eating this morning seems so very far away. i was only able to get 3 mls in her this last feeding and each one was taken only half-heartedly, she didn't really want it. i'm hoping that as the day gets closer to night, their natural awake time, that her appetite will improve. th stuff i left in her cage this morning was not touched either. she doesn't seem to be responding to the pred anymore either.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--UPDATE--jan 14 after school*

kakushi, ate 2 and half mls for breakfast (all expect the first half ml was forced on her) then has refused to eat further (i will be trying again after this post but i hold little hope). this seems to be becoming habit though with less and less eaten each time. today she seemed so tired and sad. 

her physical condition just gets worse each day. last night she clubbed her right front paw and today she rolls more then she walks. her coordination is almost completely gone now. though she still has strength in her front limbs she's no longer using them properly and she seems to have no strength left in her back legs (she still moves them but they don't support her weight). she keeps stretching out her front paws as if she's trying to push something away.

but more then this her eyes look so sad now. before, there was a light in them, its hard to explain properly but i'm sure the people here understand what i mean. its not there anymore. she's sleeping all the time now and just doesn't seem like she wants to be her anymore when she is awake. she's eating less and less. she has so much trouble moving around and cleaning herself. i don't want to make the wrong decision and take her before she's ready but she seems to just not want to be here anymore either. i'm not sure if she's not eating in a way to leave on her own, because she's too tired or if the illness is causing her problems in her ability to swallow, or eat or be interested in eating. i don't know but i think i will be taking her in tonight.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--final hours*

When that light goes, its definitely time. I am so sorry for both of you 

Give her a kiss for me.


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## Emster (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--final hours*

You should do what you think is right and what you believe Kakushi would want you to do.

Be strong. And I'm so sorry to hear about Kakushi, give her a good scritch from us all.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--final hours*

When her 'Kakushi-ness' leaves her eyes and stays away, you know it's time.

I am so sorry for you. It's the hardest decision to make, but as Emster says, you have to do what she would want you to do.


17 little rattie hearts go out to your little girlie


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Kakushi--cancer--final hours*

thank you for understanding. i gave her all the requested scritches, hugs and warm thoughts before i took her in. she was gone by 6:15pm. she spent the day asleep on my neck and shoulder, i think she had a good final hours at least. 

i'm not sure i did the right thing though, she looked so afraid when the medication was taking affect. with my past rats they closed their eyes as i sang to them and talked to them. i could do no more then whisper to kakushi but she refused to close her eyes, even when i was patting her face. she looked so determined to hang on in those last minutes. i don't think she was ready now but its too late to do anything about it. i just hope she can forgive me for misunderstanding her and taking her in before her she was ready. my poor strong girl. my giant proud rat is at the bridge now. play hard my dear kaku. 

i will make her, her memorial in the rainbow bridge section when the pain isn't quite as great.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

If you are talking about the gas, it doesn't smell nice to them, but then they relax and go to sleep. They often go under anesthesia with their eyes open.

She will not have an ill-feelings towards you at all.

I have a friend who is an AC. Once they have left their body and even before (when they are half in, half out) they completely understand. She wanted to stay with you, even though she knew her body wouldn't let her. That is why she seemed reluctant. She might even feel she was failing you by not being able to stay. That feeling also passes once they are gone.

There was no misunderstanding on your part, twitch. She, I and a lot of us who have been there, know she gave you _the sign_ that it was her time to leave, no matter how much she wanted to stay.

((hugs))

My thoughts are with you tonight.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

thank you for your kind words, it helps. i really hope all that you said is true. she is free of her failing body now and that's what matters. i think her death will be a little harder then some of the others though. my son is coming on five now and for the first time seems to understand what has happened. today we had a talk about death and he was not happy about kakushi passing on. he kept saying he didn't want her to die. i've had rats for as long as i've had my son and we've been through many deaths, but this is the first that he's understood. i considered taking him with me for this one but decided against it. he's still young and my car isn't in the best of shape right now, i figured it would be hard enough driving the car in my own state let alone having to try to console my son on top of it. i will bring him with me at some point so he can better understand the process and learn to greive but not this time. 

but what is an AC?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Animal Communicator. Too many weird coincidences for me not to believe it.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about the loss twitch, and my many condolences. Kakushi will be waiting.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

lilspaz: you know, i've been interested in the AC field but i have not been able to come across good solid information on it. the best i was able to find on it was that some people can commune with animals, somehow, for some odd reason. there have been different resources that claims these people are conartists, to these people are gifted by god. the one i hope is right is that these people get special training and can develop the skills the required to communicate with animals. i'm hoping the later is the right one because i would like to learn how to do it myself. i don't suppose you or your friend could clear up which of the paths the AC somes to be and where some good reading on the matter could be found? authors, websites, people to contact? that sort of thing. 

ladada: thank you. i'd like to think that she'll be waiting but then i think about how long human lives can be and how boring it would become waiting up there and greeting more and new rats and other pets peope. when i get thinking like that i hope that when she reincarnates she'll pay me a visit. but either way i'm comforted by those thoughts.

after taking kaku in i stopped at the mall to get dinner (i did not feel like eating but figured i needed to but also knew there was no way i was up to making my own food tonight) and ended up spurlging a bit in a book store. i picked up a new book by Silver RavenWolf and it had a section on death. i found something in there that i thought was rather a nice thought and i hope to be true. she takes some information from Dr. Micheal Newton from is his book Destiny of Souls. in it, it explains that he has done reasearch in the field of the afterlife and souls and posits that "although a large part of our spiritual essence is in the physical body here on earth, there is a portion of our spirit on the other side that does function, and provides a connection between the part of us here and the part of us there. [...] If this is indeed the case, then your pet has not lost your loving energy as all, and he or she was not alone when crossing the veil. You were there." i found that deeply comforting and hope that it is true.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

actually, it really does sound not only comforting, but interesting to hear about the prospect of being partially int he afterlife already in the spiritual realm.

I will seek more information on this actually.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i wrote up kaku's memorial. http://ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/p=60965.html#60965


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