# I know I shouldn't, but pet store rats?



## takum (Jan 27, 2013)

I was at Petco today buying some litter for my two girls and while I was in the small animals section I caught sight of this tiny rat that seemed really unhappy and I just couldn't tear myself away from it.I know that if I buy it, then I will be supporting Petco's poor vending of live animals but at the same time I just feel so bad for itWhat should I do?


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

If you have the means to care for it then get it. The whole don't buy from pets hops hype is really flawed. You're not going to do anything to stop the selling of animals or the care by refusing to burbs rat from there. Someone will eventually come along after you and purchase it... Not to mention if you buy anything from them at all then technically you're supporting them. You don't have to buy live up to do that.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

You have to follow your heart, but remember that that rat will be replaced with another tiny and frightened baby.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

all but one of my buddies is a petsmart rat. i know the employees here and they are all rat nuts too. cant speak for your petstore, but ours takes better care of the rats then other stores.


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## katlovesaandw (Feb 10, 2013)

I buy from a pet store but it is our local mom/pop one. Our rat came from one of employees that raises rats and theirs are healthy, cages clean, etc. so we were ok buying.
ITA with if you can afford to take on another rat, the rat looks ok, then do so.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

mistymornings18 said:


> If you have the means to care for it then get it. The whole don't buy from pets hops hype is really flawed. You're not going to do anything to stop the selling of animals or the care by refusing to burbs rat from there. Someone will eventually come along after you and purchase it... Not to mention if you buy anything from them at all then technically you're supporting them. You don't have to buy live up to do that.Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is why I buy most of my pet supplies from stores that do not sell live animals. The shops that do not sell animals are very small so sometimes I have to go to the "best" chain to get other things I need. If where this rat came from bothers you, you should not be buying from this store if there are alternatives.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Four of my six girls are pet store rats (even the rescues originally came from a pet store) and while I got them before I knew much about rats, I don't regret it. I understand the reasoning behind not purchasing from pet stores, but the way I see it, they all need a home. If you can provide a good, caring home, then that baby deserves it.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Five of my seven rats are petsmart rats and are amazing. Three are varying degrees of shy, but none are biters, all love treats, and always clammer for my attention.

Like other people said, technically simply by buying anything from Petco, you're "supporting" them. They don't actually make money from selling small pets as a general rule. It's the other stuff that gives them the cash since they have to pay to upkeep live animals. Also, while it is true that if you buy that rat, it'll be replaced with another... it'll be replaced whether it is sold as a pet, snake food, or just dies. There's no end to it.

If you play with the rat, it seems like a good pet, and you have the means to take care of it... forget that it's a petstore rat and follow your heart. Nothing you do or don't do with affect Petco negatively or positively in the big picture.

Just be careful because Petstores are breeding ground for viruses. Three of my five petsmart rats came to me with sneezes. There's no guarantee no matter where you get rats (one I got from a breeder had bad sneezes as well), so always be ready to pay vet bills when you bring home a new friend from a questionable place.

Best of luck! I know you'll make the right decision.


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## pwoink (Feb 19, 2013)

FallDeere said:


> Like other people said, technically simply by buying anything from Petco, you're "supporting" them. They don't actually make money from selling small pets as a general rule. It's the other stuff that gives them the cash since they have to pay to upkeep live animals.


That's an interesting point, FallDeere -- if it's true that places like Petco don't make that much money off of small animals, then buying animals from them is not as problematic as buying other more money-making supplies from those stores. That's something to keep in mind!

Though, to reiterate the point -- watch out for any illnesses that tiny scared rattie might have, takum! Make sure to quarantine the newcomer properly.


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## Muttlycrew (Dec 21, 2012)

Geisha and (RIP) Rumor were both from petco. My brothers girlfriend (idk.. They aren't married but have been together forever and live together?) works at petco and whenever they have one she thinks I'll like she tells me. They hold theirs daily and actually take them to the vet if they're sick and they have hidey houses and things to jump on and toys. I think it really varies per store. 
Brody, Ian, Django, and Katara are from a mom/pop pet store that takes "better care" of the petco ones and breed their own rats, but they really don't handle them at all.. The babies are always very jumpy and crazy, but there is so much variety at that store that I like it. 

Again, like many people have mentioned, no matter who takes the baby from the store, there is already another one lined up to go. 
Though I have slightly different views on feeder rats than most people on the forum do (a topic which we'll all stay off of to avoid any arguing or anything) I do believe that if you are willing to take the baby on as a pet, might as well because who knows what it'll be used for by the next person that comes.
Again, either way, there is NO way to actually impact the pet store ways of rats by just a few people not buying from them.
So why not :3
Go and visit with the baby and if you feel a connection, take it home.  


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

My answer is always you can't help who you love. If you want it then go for it.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I personally wouldnt, every rat sat in a horrible little cage in a pet shop is filling a space that could be occupied by another. Yes it will be replaced when it dies, or is sold, but that could be days, weeks or even months away. Yes that rat pays the price, but another rat, or many rats, may not. Its all about supply and demand in pet shops, if they see they have a demand they will continue breeding to supply that demand. They wont have any reason to improve standards either, after all it doesnt matter that the rats are sickly and in horrible tanks, because that makes people buy them. It may seem like 1 person cant make a difference but its like voting, if you resist and stand strong thats one more on the side of rats and pets in general.

Its not easy, and its very hard on that one little life, but I believe it is worth it. I wont look down on people who cant do that though, its very tough. 

I must say I will generally avoid buying from pet shops I know stock animals, especially those that keep them I poor conditions or have a bad rep for animal wellfare, I also tell my friends and family why. Of course in an emergency it doesnt come into it, but where I can choose I shop elsewhere, normally on tne net actually.

Its also important to me that when I choose my future rats I do kt for a reason that helps the rats and shows what I support, so I would only rescue rats, or take them from breeders I know are working for tne good of their rats.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Isamurat said:


> I personally wouldnt, every rat sat in a horrible little cage in a pet shop is filling a space that could be occupied by another. Yes it will be replaced when it dies, or is sold, but that could be days, weeks or even months away. Yes that rat pays the price, but another rat, or many rats, may not. Its all about supply and demand in pet shops, if they see they have a demand they will continue breeding to supply that demand. They wont have any reason to improve standards either, after all it doesnt matter that the rats are sickly and in horrible tanks, because that makes people buy them. It may seem like 1 person cant make a difference but its like voting, if you resist and stand strong thats one more on the side of rats and pets in general.
> 
> Its not easy, and its very hard on that one little life, but I believe it is worth it. I wont look down on people who cant do that though, its very tough.
> 
> ...


Your thinking is flawed to be blunt about it. Not buying this rat really won't make a difference because someone will come along and buy it and it could very well be snake food. 
Buying anything from these chain stores is supporting them. I've seen quite a few people on here who buy supplies of whatever kind from them do they're supporting them by default....


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

mistymornings18 said:


> Your thinking is flawed to be blunt about it. Not buying this rat really won't make a difference because someone will come along and buy it and it could very well be snake food.
> Buying anything from these chain stores is supporting them. I've seen quite a few people on here who buy supplies of whatever kind from them do they're supporting them by default....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It is flawed thinking to do something just because you assume that someone else will do it if you don't, to be blunt about it.

And most of us that do not support pet store rats do not support the pet shops that supply them. A lot of us buy our supplies online from independent suppliers.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I think the heart of the issue here has little to do with the rat itself--I think we'd all, as rat lovers, agree that all rats, no matter where they come from, deserve love and will be wonderful pets. The issue is less that the rat is coming from the pet store and more that people are supporting pet stores that treat their rats inhumanely. A far bigger issue than whether or not you adopt this rat is where you buy supplies from, etc, and how much money each of us does or does not put into an industry that treats animals poorly. I know I'm guilty of running to PetSmart when I decide I need supplies immediately even though the baby boy rat I got from them was an absolute mess and two of his brothers are still there getting sicker every day. I know that I, personally, need to start refraining from doing that. It's just something to think about.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Yes, Rumy, you are exactly right.

This is an argument that never ends. Every few months, the same topic will come up. 

It's just a personal choice.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

K


mistymornings18 said:


> Your thinking is flawed to be blunt about it. Not buying this rat really won't make a difference because someone will come along and buy it and it could very well be snake food.
> Buying anything from these chain stores is supporting them. I've seen quite a few people on here who buy supplies of whatever kind from them do they're supporting them by default....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Every day that rat sits in the tank is another day that another doesnt take its place. Those days add up and as they add up they make a difference. Its like saying "I cant donate much to charity as I dont have much, so it wont make a difference" the little things, when done by a lot of people, make a real difference. At the end of the day just because your impact is tiny doesnt mean you shouldnt do it


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## takum (Jan 27, 2013)

The local petco isn't very good about small animal care, the rats are housed in tiny tanks and don't have a lot of space to do anything but sleep.I don't have enough spare cash sitting around to buy from independent retailers, even if things are cheaper online I still have to pay for shipping and that usually isn't worth it, the only things I buy online are Teklad blocks. Apparently the local hardware store sells pet supplies so I think I'll just check them out instead. I feel terrible for the rat but until I know if the place I'm staying next year allows pets (the girls will stay with my roommates) I won't be able to make a good decision. I realized that even if I didn't purchase it, then Petco would still carry rats and mice for snake owners, if nothing else. It's a tough decision, and although I am more worried about supporting the store than about the quality of the rat (I will love it all the same) I've got a lot more to think about before making this decision. Thank you for all your advice, everyone.


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## ratazana (Jan 26, 2013)

I like to "vote" with my money... Personally, I try to avoid supporting big chain pet stores. 

By telling someone that they can't make a difference in the world is such a defeatist attitude. _"You may not buy the rat, but someone else will, so you won't even make a difference."_ ...That's such a horrible way to look at life in my opinion. Even the tiniest like statement of protest makes a difference. 

Then again, do what feels right to _you_. If you really feel a connection to the rat, then go ahead and buy him/her. Don't live with any regret... But don't forget that somewhere out there another rat is waiting in a shelter who also needs a good home, and by adopting, your money won't be going to a corporation who sees animals as commodities and not as living beings. 

Everyone here has their own opinions, but at the end of the day you have to listen to your heart.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

I think the whole "Should I buy a rat from a pet store?" needs to be addressed and stickied. There needs to be a Q and A on chain stores, mills, ma and pa shops, breeders, things to look for and questions to ask the seller. It keeps coming up. Whether or not pet store rats make great pets is irrelevant to the situation of supporting an industry you do not agree with. Also, if you cannot handle seeing a lonely rat at a pet store and you want to take one home despite your beliefs, I have some advice: don't go look at the small animals. It's that simple. I rarely look at the animals in chain stores. It saves me a lot of stress. I don't browse and then hum and haw over whether I have the resources to take in this poor critter. When I decide I want a new animal, I check Kijiji, shelters and look into independently owned stores and breeders. Kijiji can be quite hard, but at least I am not face to face with the little critters.


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## Muttlycrew (Dec 21, 2012)

I think it should be stickies as well. Earlier I was in a bit of a rough mood (I'm ill at the moment) and re-reading my previous comment it seems so unlike me. I do believe that the littlest act can have an impact, but I also know how petco does its thing and so I have to give a little more information on the "if you don't buy it, petco won't buy more". That isn't true. (For the petco here anyway) the way they do it is there is a set number of rats that they have come in at a set time. If they haven't sold enough live, the extras are simply frozen and kept in stock. I should've explained that earlier when I said leaving the one wouldn't change how many are bred. 
Now, I am "ok" with the conditions their rats are kept under(of course the cages aren't big enough, but I don't know of any pet store that's cages are big enough[this doesn't make it ok, I'm just pointing it out]) but then this petco also runs an "adoption center". 
The adoption center is just that.
Since there isn't an actual shelter anywhere near me that takes rats, petco does it for them. They allow people who can no longer take care of their rats to bring these rats in and had them over to petco. 
Petco does not sell these rats the same way they sell theirs. To get one of these rats, you have to fill out a questionnaire which is then looked over and approved/declined. These rats are also kept separate from petco's rats because of the unknown backgrounds some come with. 
This is where I got Geisha. Rumor was just straight up from petco, but once I found out about their adoption program, I had started going through them instead.
Just today, in fact, I added a new member :3 this hasn't been announced at all, but I guess it is now-lol!
She is a 2 year old albino girl surrendered by an elderly lady that couldn't physically take care of her anymore.
My brothers girlfriend called me on her lunch break to tell me about her. She was terrified in the petco store being put in a cage on a table and was so depressed and had been laying in the back corner of the cage ignoring the toys and everything. Reportedly she was a he... Lol. 
My mom went and "renewed/update" my old adoption papers from Geisha and picked the rat up for me since I'm sick.
When mom got home, though, I found out he is really a she., lol! 
Anyway, that's just kind of my renewed, post coffee and medicine comment updating my last comment. 


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Congratulations on your new rat. 
I know that Pet Shops aren't the best place to but..... At least, that little rat is in a better home. 

Besides, there's worse places to get a new pet rat from.....

Here's a "prime example"...... http://littlerock.craigslist.org/pet/3611607957.html ..........

There's a lot of sad situations out there for rats. 

I'm just happy you got your new one instead of a person looking for a "feeder".


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## PeachPeach (Jun 22, 2012)

And see, I'm kind of glad the lady is looking to rehome the animal immediately than letting it languish with no love in her home. It all depends on how you see it, though I have some definite qualms about the lesson she is teaching her son on the value of ALL life...

As for pet stores, some are good and some aren't. Management makes a bigger difference than the conditions the animal is born under, in my opinion. If an animal is born into an excellent home and adopted out into a terrible one, I'd consider that far worse than an animal being born in a breeder bin and sold to a pet store that properly and regularly handles their animals, and vets owners well, too. It just depends. Go with your gut on this one and don't bother with the politics on either side of the issue, as there's no consensus to be had!


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## JessyGene (Feb 27, 2012)

Kaliloca said:


> Congratulations on your new rat.
> I know that Pet Shops aren't the best place to but..... At least, that little rat is in a better home.
> 
> Besides, there's worse places to get a new pet rat from.....
> ...


Just curious, how come you think it's worse to get a pet rat from craigslist than from a pet store?


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

JessyGene said:


> Just curious, how come you think it's worse to get a pet rat from craigslist than from a pet store?


Because the majority of them are ones that people got as pets.... Then a few weeks later... they didn't want them after all. Then they try to "sell them a recoup their monies"... The animal aren't always well cared for. It's a sad situation for a rat that somebody "thought" they wanted, but really didn't. I'm sure these people originally got their rats from a pet shop............ Yep, it's a vicious circle there. 

From time to time you see a person that wants to "rehome" a pet that they've had for a while and circumstances forced them to part with their pet. The problem with these rats is...... They're generally older. Not that older rats are a bad thing. It's just that rats don't live that long. If you're lucky, you'll get 4 years with them. If you're not..... Maybe only 2-3 years. If you adopt an older rat..... you might only have them for 6 months, depending on how old they were when you got them. I tend to get very attached, so I would want to get a rat that will be around for, hopefully, 4 years. I'm sure an older rat from a loving home off Craigslist would make a great pet. It's just not what I would be looking for. 

Then there's the few that have "accidental litters". These are people that love their pets. They're well cared for and the babies are handled from a young age. If I was going to get a rat off craigslist. That's the person I'd get them from. That way I'd have a young rat that's healthy and will make a great pet. You just don't see them that often on Craigslist here. 

Of course, there's been 2 times I've gone to look at an "accidental litter" and they were actually "mass producing them"......... OK, maybe not "mass producing", but I counted 3 litters and to me that's "mass producing"...... I didn't buy from those ones. 


I still don't think a pet shop is a good place to get a pet rat, but I got one of mine form a pet shop. I wouldn't trade her for anything. Chances are I wont get another one from a pet shop. Blue was a one time thing and I'm glad I got her. 

I'm happy for any rat that actually makes it out of a Pet Shop and into a loving home.  Especially since the majority end up....... Well, we know where they end up.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Kaliloca said:


> Because the majority of them are ones that people got as pets.... Then a few weeks later... they didn't want them after all. Then they try to "sell them a recoup their monies"... The animal aren't always well cared for. It's a sad situation for a rat that somebody "thought" they wanted, but really didn't. I'm sure these people originally got their rats from a pet shop............ Yep, it's a vicious circle there.


I'm not gonna get into this whole debate, but I have to say that I do not understand your logic here. It's not really a vicious circle to rescue a rat from someone who doesn't want it, because it's not like they're gonna be like "Oh, well now that I got rid of THAT rat I don't want, I'll go out and get another one I don't want!". They'll just... not have that rat anymore, and someone who will love it and take care of it will. Sure, people should be responsible when they get their pets,and it's unfortunate that so many people get pets and then shortly after decide that they don't want them for whatever reason, but taking those pets from those people doesn't enable that behavior, it just saves those pets from either being given away as feeders or literally tossed out into the wild.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Agreed with Jenzie. I consider CL rats to be rescues. 
HOWEVER, CL can sometimes be included in the pet store debate as many people on CL are flippers or BYBs that are actually trying to make a profit off the pet, and they will continue to breed/get more animals to flip when you take theirs. That's why I've only ever adopted animals off CL that are free. I'm happy to pay for their accessories, but unless the owner is willing to surrender their pet to a loving home free of cost, I feel wary of them. It's fairly easy to screen flippers and BYBs, though, so generally CL is a good place to rescue if you are unable to access an actual rescue.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I just want to say that some petstores DO take care of their rats and care about them not all of them are bad and I try to support the ones who treat all of their animals well.
There is one store within two hours of me that keeps their rats in a large acrylic exhibit, they clean it often, there are many hides and toys, and the rats always look happy. They will not sell them for feeders intentionally ether and asked me why I wanted to look at them/get one when I went. Petstore does not always = bad.

However there are many horrid shops around me like the one I got my two first boys from as a newb who knew nothing and jumped headfirst like a idiot. My first boys were feeders infested with worms, lice, and horrible infections and it took me 500+ dollars to fix that and one of them is on permanent medication his respiratory system is so damaged. I will never buy anything there again.
Just be aware what you are getting yourself into if you buy a petstore rat from bad conditions they can cost you a fortune and a lot of heartache.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Isamurat said:


> K
> 
> Every day that rat sits in the tank is another day that another doesnt take its place. Those days add up and as they add up they make a difference. Its like saying "I cant donate much to charity as I dont have much, so it wont make a difference" the little things, when done by a lot of people, make a real difference. At the end of the day just because your impact is tiny doesnt mean you shouldnt do it


It isn't making a difference because petco will still sale rats and people will still buy them. Buying supplies from them is still supporting them. There are other ways to attempt to make a difference. 


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## ratazana (Jan 26, 2013)

By choosing not to buy pets or supplies from huge corporations like Petco you are silently protesting. Believe it or not it does make a difference, no matter how insignificant you believe it is. It matters. It's called _supply and demand_... just because someone else is going to Petco to buy a rat, doesn't mean you might as well give in and be complicit. If everyone jumps off of a bridge are you going to join in if you know that it goes against your own beliefs? No. So you can't say that our logic is "flawed" when in reality by not going to Petco I feel like I have made the right moral decision for_ myself. _If I feel good about the decision I made then it is far from "flawed".

I'm not saying that people who buy from Petco or who work there are horrible human beings (I've had to make desperate stops at these places in times of emergencies). I just believe that the people who oppose chain stores are making a statement about the issues that seem to surround these businesses. I think we can all agree that there is a lot of work to be done at Petco to improve the lives of the animals they sell, as well as the conditions the animals live in while being bred for profit.

No matter what, it is a fact that there are so many homeless pets out there who need a home. It is always a better decision to adopt rather than shop if you have the opportunity to do so.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

I've seen the argument on here where people state that their chain store takes excellent care of their animals. It's a chain. Your money isn't just supporting that one store that is ran well. It is going towards building their business as a whole. You are supporting the good ones and the crappy ones. You have to be wary of classifieds too. I have no problem taking an unwanted pet off someone's hands for a small fee (rehoming fees sometimes deter certain people from aquiring the animal). It is just a matter of sifting through the good ads and the bad. At least when you get an animal from the classifieds, the money is not going to the corporation that mass bred them in mills or neglected them in the stores.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

mistymornings18 said:


> It isn't making a difference because petco will still sale rats and people will still buy them. Buying supplies from them is still supporting them. There are other ways to attempt to make a difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It not about stopping it, one person cant stop the pet trade, its making it slightly less profitable for the corperations. Every rat that sits in a tank is less moneg in there pocket. Unfortunatly the only argumant that shops understand or listen to is money, its a sad fax in 99 percent of cases. You choose not to buy and thats one less purchase, it all adds up.

Then theres the fact that shops generally sell to anyone, I used to be more on the fence. The. My local pet chain sold two rats to some teenage boys. They put them in a microwave and videoed it, it made the local papers. You can imagine the rats didnt make it. It summed up why there needs to be more saffguards for animals to me. Breeders and rescues dont always get it right, but kts a lot harder, a d less immediate to get rats or any pet from the . Typically if people want rats from my breeding grouo for knstance they have to wait 6 to 12 months. Theyhve to fill out a big application form and we have to build some trust, the same applies to many rescues. That really stops impulse buying, and I think the wait is worth it too.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks to you guys i no longer know how i feel about the situation. the kids that tortured the rats kind of hurt me. i used to breed reptiles, mostly pythons but after starting my breeding colony i fell in love with my rats and now only have one snake. now knowing haw smart these little guys are i cannot see harming them. As far as chain stores are concerned isamurat is right, time is the key to keeping impulse and other unsavory buyers at bay. petco is neither good nor evil but a product of its buyers.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

it really shook me too that one, i still go cold thinking about it


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## Hephaestion (Jan 27, 2013)

@Isamurat - that is an atrocious story. Shocking in the extreme. I found a small piece in the mirror about it - here - but cannot find anything on any consequences. The capacity for such cruelty is surely an indication of severe pathology on behalf of the perpetrator. It is especially saddening to see such cruelty in the county of Beatrix Potter herself a conservationist and I understand the owner of a pet rat(s). As an aside, when studying in York a few years ago I popped up to the Lake District for a visit. Absolutely spectacular!


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## ratazana (Jan 26, 2013)

@Isamurat - That makes me so sad, and angry! Some people are heartless. That's just another reason why pet stores need to have better policies and screenings before selling live animals to anyone. That's why I prefer adoption centers, because they screen each potential adopter. The adoption center near my home insists that each adopter have an interview with the shelter manager. My friend went in to adopt a cat and they interviewed her for 40 minutes. It was very well done.

@Hephaestion - I grew up reading & watching the stories of Beatrix Potter, she's the reason I fell in love with rodents in the first place, & why I adopted my rats.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I am very lucky living in beatrix potter country, asside from the few idiots that live here, I grew up with them too, no wonder I adore animals, especially rats and rabbits.


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

My petco regularly has rats for adoption. Owner turn-ins. You fill out an adoption form and everything. Same goes for 'special needs' animals, even down to the fish. I adopted a koi from them because he had a deformity. 

I am divided on the not buying from pet stores thing when it comes to rats. And the reason being, most pet store rats are feeders - the petco ones included, in fact, my snake-friend told me if you tell them it is just a feeder rat before you purchase it, they discount it by about 40%. 

Now the reason I am not on board with the boycotting when it comes to pet store feeder/breeders, is they are not like the 'pets' they sell. If you buy a chinchilla from them, yep, you're just helping them out because they can order another one immediately. If nobody buys that chinchilla, and it dies (they become sick, and if nobody gets it to the vet, they go into the 'back room' for treatment - I.E taken out of the public eye so they can just die), they will lose money. 

If nobody buys that rat, and it becomes sick and dies, it goes into the freezer and is sold for just as much as a frozen feeder. If people stop buying live rats, they will just order more prekilled, or prekill their own. And since rats are a dime a dozen, or less, it doesn't hurt them AT ALL anyway for people to boycott the rats. 
And the feeder breeders themselves.. Well, when they get overpopulated from lack of sales, they simply kill off the amount they need gone, and freeze them - with the amount of exotic pet owners, there is no shortage of F/T buyers. 

Just my opinion.


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## SeaMama (Feb 5, 2013)

Poisoned- Your thoughts are very interesting. Thanks for sharing, it widened my ideas of petstore rats.


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## Muttlycrew (Dec 21, 2012)

Poisoned- that's exactly what I wrote, too. I was beginning to think that I was the only one that thought that!! 
It is true, though. They always have the same amount no matter what. Whether people "save" them and make them pets, or someone buys them live for feeders. They're always rotating in new ones and the old ones just go to the freezer.
Sad, but true. 



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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I think thats what your not getting about the other side of the argument. If the demand falls, even by a small amount, they wil reduce the supply. Otherwise they are throwing away "product". As much as its horrible to imagine a rat as a product this is very much how pet shops view them. Even if the ex display pet rat becomes a frozen feeder, they will need 1 less rat in there next order of feeders, or over the course of a few people not buying, need one less litter born in horrible conditions, it will add up if everyone makes these choices. 

It is easier in the uk to see how you can make a difference as live feeding is generally illeagal here, so you dont get feeder bins. Plus to get feeders most people either breed there own or get them delivered frozen from an exotics supply specialist, needless to say from the same rodent mills that the pet shop get there pets from. Theres also generally a better netwprk of alternatives, theres a rescue or ethical breeder within an hour or two of most places in the uk. I think this makes more difference than most actually. Its harder to justify pet shop rats when you can travel an hour and get some rats that have been well raised and loved.

I must say I am in two minds about pet shop rescue sections, here in the uk there fairly common, but often openly used to sell stock that has not sold and got too old to have that baby appeal. Genuine rescues in there are pretty rare, though do crop up. I wouldnt donate to any pet shop rescue fund for that reason, though I might take on a rat I knew needed special attention, as theres very few rat owners with any exoerience round me.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Poisoned said:


> My petco regularly has rats for adoption. Owner turn-ins. You fill out an adoption form and everything. Same goes for 'special needs' animals, even down to the fish. I adopted a koi from them because he had a deformity.
> 
> I am divided on the not buying from pet stores thing when it comes to rats. And the reason being, most pet store rats are feeders - the petco ones included, in fact, my snake-friend told me if you tell them it is just a feeder rat before you purchase it, they discount it by about 40%.
> 
> ...


I have worked at several different pet shops, including the big franchises, and that is not true.


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

Then I've been being fed bull by the ones I go to, because I asked them specifically what they do with the feeder rat bodies. Because their rats are obviously ill, stressed, even elderly in some cases, and I questioned them about the care they'll get, and what they do with the bodies. Because I brought up the "well if you don't give them proper care, even if you don't care about the rat suffering, the store loses profit." argument and that is what they came back with. 

But really ,even if I was lied to, do you know how much a feeder rat is from a feeder breeder? They could lose their whole stock and it would hurt the store less than replacing a filter on a fish tank.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Poisoned you might as well give it up. This is one argument you won't win as they clearly are set in their opinion that leaving that baby to die is better then buying them because it MIGHT make a difference sometime in the future. You'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic as the opinions vary greatly on what's right and what isn't. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Lyndseyr (Feb 16, 2013)

It's a matter of personal opinion/choice. I got my girls at a smaller chain pet store because the closest breeder to me is a few hours away. The last two girls I had were from petco. Well, JoJo was a petco adoption and her "sister" Awa was a purchase from there. I do shop at petco/petsmart(sorry, cant complain about some of their prices)and looking at the rats/mice does make me sad because I know what people buy them for. Like someone else said, you can't save them all


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

You missed the point. You are not really saving them by buyin them and fueling the demand.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I think kts fair to say you are saving tne individual, just condeming another to the same fate and supporting tne industry bad practice.


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

Until herp/reptile, birds of prey, wildlife rehabs, rescues, zoos, private exotic owners and etc. cease to exist, there will BE no end to the demand. Rats are too easy and cheap to breed, raise, kill, and buy unfortunately for them. 

And just personally, boycotting those rats only means they're going to die where they are or be bought by someone else. And the deaths of even the whole stock wouldn't matter a bit. The price (on a large rodent provider) for a "XXXL" Adult rat, retired breeders, as big as they come, is 2.75 - the price of the weaned babies is 1.25. They are very, very cheap. Like I said, less than the price of a bag of feed spilling at the store. 
Even if they do continually die for whatever reason and make it start costing them, there is too much demand from herp owners especially for them to stop stocking them up, there is a reptile owner buying mice/rats every time I am at petco, I have never seen anyone buy a rat as a pet from them, or any other pet shop in the area actually, but they fly off the shelves like hot cakes. I watched one guy take a rat I had been eying for weeks for his Fantasy Frog. When there are no live rats in, they go in and complain. And if they stopped buying live, there will be MORE killed for frozen food. It is a lose/lose for these rats no matter what. Except the ones you adopt. 

If rats were sold solely as pets I would agree. I vehemently oppose people buying puppies from pet stores, and other 'pets' from big chain stores especially. Most mom and pop type places are really alright and care about where the animals are from, and who they go to. But it's like saying don't buy feeder hissing roaches.. They ARE kept as pets. Most are for food. And you not buying that one .25ç roach won't hurt them in any way. 


This is all my opinion. And I'm not even saying it's right, but it's how I see it.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm curious about something--as I keep reading this thread there are so many mentions of petcos/petsmarts selling rats purposefully as feeders. Is that normally done? The PetCos and PetSmarts in my area, while certainly not top notch in pet care, do not sell live feeders and WILL not sell if they believe that's what they're being sold for. When I was purchasing George from PetSmart several months ago I had to have a long talk with the sales associate I was working with because she'd helped me get supplies for my snake before and needed convincing that I actually wanted George as a pet and not for the snake, and I guess I assumed that was a company wide thing. Is it not? I think it might be illegal to sell live feeders in my area, though, which might be what the real issue is...


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

My local petco definitely sells live feeder animals.. In fact, the employee present didn't even try to back me up when I was talking some owners out of feeding young mice to their pacman frogs, after going over how cruel it is for them, and unhealthy it is for the frogs. Even when they decided not to, she seemed totally neutral. So I'd say it varies by the store.

My girl Lilith that I adopted from them was actually about to be sold asa feeder because she was a biter. And she was an owner turn-in.


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## justboringSarah (Feb 6, 2013)

I subscribe to the starfish thrower theory. Buying one animal won't make a difference to anyone/anything but that animal. I say if you have the resources do it.
In fact Im considering going and saving a few"feeders"myself this weekend. They will be replaced,but it means a couple rats will live out good,happy lives


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

Sarah - Ever since I heard the starfish theory, I've tried to live by it. I have never heard anyone else quote it, though. 
http://lindasgoldenyears.blogspot.com/2010/03/starfish-theory.html


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## Misfitdolly (Feb 16, 2013)

I have never heard that starfish story, I love it. my 2 boys are from petco and we had 2 others a few years ago also from petco. They have all been very friendly from day 1. The local store has 2 or 3 employees who have pet rats and the rats seem to be well cared for. I go around and look at all the small animals and reptiles most times im in there and in about 8 or 9 years I've only been concerned twice. both times i brought my concerns to the staff and they took care of it immediately. one time was overcrowding in a rat cage and the manager explained that those rats arrived as small rats and were the right number of rats for that size cage of small rats. problem was they weren't small anymore. she moved half of them to an empty cage and thanked me. I went back in several times over the following weeks and they remained split up. I also havent seen overcrowding since then. there are no breeders of pet rats in my area that i know of except one of the petco employees which are where mine have come from. 

For the OP i say go with your gut. Go back and visit the rat and make a decision based on your instincts.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Any time a rat makes it out of a feeder bin and into a loving home...... THAT'S A GOOD THING!!


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## PeachPeach (Jun 22, 2012)

I love that story, thanks for sharing!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

that is a very interesting story, really neat. reminds me of the slogans they always use for Rescues.

I'm not going to add my two cents on this discussion. These always lead to fights that keep going in circles and no one does, or really in my opinion Can, win. Though I will say 4 out of my 7 boys have been from the same pet store and I have always loved them to bits, and very happy I have had them in my life. my current 3 boys who are from an oops litter have been more skittish then my 4 pet shop boys to be honest. It's up to you what type of thinking you go with, and what makes you make these types of decisions.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

I've heard of the starfish theory. I heard of it in regards to vegetarianism/veganism. With every animal I don't eat, I am throwing a starfish back into the sea. I want to *headdesk* though. Every time you throw a starfish back, a major corporation who gets their rats from mills expands. I might as well continue eating meat because not eating one animal is not going to make a difference to the billions killed each year, right? Plus, the big meat corporations cannot possibly miss the teeny tiny amount that I would be throwing into buying steak... I will not buy animals from mill situations and I educate others to consider the same. I limit my purchase from those organizations too (because it is all about reducing harm. I realize that some people can't always get what they want from an independent store).


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

> _“You have a good heart young man,” the businessman replied, “but do you realize that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!”_


I took that excerpt from the starfish story. This is exactly what we are trying to say. ONE purchase makes a difference.


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## Poisoned (Nov 17, 2012)

> The boy looked up at that man, and then he looked down at a starfish by his feet. He picked up the starfish, and as he gently tossed it back into the ocean, he said, _“I made a difference to that one.”_



Saying that if us, very very few, stopped saving a rat from the feeder bin once in a while will decrease demand.. Well, it's like saying if those few people who go into a pet store once in a while and buy crickets to set free would not do it, the demand would fall. It's not logical, and it's not really true - for every one cricket bought by the guy wanting to set them free, I buy a hundred to kill. The majority of feeder rat buyers, and I'm not sure of the percent, are buying them as feeders. 
The way to slow down demand is if they would all start raising their own, or if snakes and other exotics and carnivores suddenly become vegetarian.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

If you get 100 of those people buying crickets to set free then stop buying them then that would add up, yes it woild take 100 of them to match you, but just because its a small amount doesnt mean its not worth it. 1 percent might seem small, but if you multiply it by large numbers it starts making a difference. Just because you turning down one rat is not going to make as big a difference as that snake owner buying 100 doesnt mean it makes no difference at all. A drop in the ocean still increases its overall volume. If more people stopped believing they couldnt make a difference and actually did something we could change the world.

Honestly regardless of the fact I think it be efits rats ovrrall I think its pretty hipocritcal to condem a petshop and its conditions then go and get a rat from it. Your essentially saying what they do is right or in some way acceptable. Sometimes the only thing you can really do is change yourslef and hopefully show others the way to go.


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## Hamsterific (Jan 14, 2013)

Whether or not it makes a difference may not even be the point.. it's choosing not to support or be a part of the system. You should do what you think is right. It is your choice one way or another and it will be on your conscience.

That being said, I got both of my girls from a pet store. While I do not support rat mills and would rather have gotten rescues, I love my rats and I'm glad I have them. In the future though I will definitely go the rescue route.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Hamsterific said:


> Whether or not it makes a difference may not even be the point.. it's choosing not to support or be a part of the system. You should do what you think is right. It is your choice one way or another and it will be on your conscience.
> 
> That being said, I got both of my girls from a pet store. While I do not support rat mills and would rather have gotten rescues, I love my rats and I'm glad I have them. In the future though I will definitely go the rescue route.


Yes... exactly this.


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## never-sleep (Mar 3, 2012)

I personally think buying from pet stores is fine. I have 2 rats, both from a pet store. The way I see it, if you're buying bedding, your giving them business. Buying food? You're giving them business. You buy a chew toy, you're giving them business. How is buying a rat any different? It isn't.

Every rat deserve to be loved. Whether they have a pedigree that dates back to the beginning of Rome or they were bred to be snake food. They deserve a good life. Where they come from should not make a difference.



One rat isn't going to cause a sudden increase in irresponsible breeding. Your buying or not buying petstore rats is not going to make a difference in their selling them, but it will make a huge difference in the little rat's life. Every rat deserves a chance to be loved. Whether they have a pedigree better than most dogs or they were bred in a tiny tank and meant to be snake food. They deserve the love of their own human.

***** QUARENTINE *****


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## Misfitdolly (Feb 16, 2013)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> I took that excerpt from the starfish story. This is exactly what we are trying to say. ONE purchase makes a difference.


This is your (and others) interpretation of that story. myself and lots of others subscribe to the 'making a difference in that individual animal's life'. None of us are wrong, we just have different opinions and interpretations on the subject and are entitled to our own opinions. We just have to agree to live in harmony and accept people along with their differences.


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