# Who all here breed for Food?



## Matt

I know that we do and it is very very sad. But Snakes have to eat Something.

Anybody here have snakes and rats?


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## Poppyseed

I have a snake, it's my boyfriend's snake actually but he only eats mice. My boyfriend KNOWS if he brought a baby rat in, I would have another pet lol. I'm finally convinced him to try feeding Wurm frozen. Chris is a little worried he won't since he's been eating live for 10 years but we are going to try soon!

I hope you humanely euthanise them then freeze them. That's the safest and most ethical way to sell snake food. I also hope you keep them in good enclosures.

I really am not too fond of Wurm but I know he makes Chris happy. He doesn't seem that interesting to me. He is a good snake and is pretty but other than that I find rats faar more interesting.


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## Forensic

Personally I wouldn't breed for food. I couldn't kill them and I would never feed live. ick.


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## lilspaz68

This is a very touchy topic for a rat-lover's forum and is most likely going to blow up if what I have seen in the past holds true. Its generally not a good idea to post things like this.

I abhor live-feeding and promote frozen if I can, for the safety of the snake as well as for the rat.


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## Nazarath

*I have two snakes and they have NEVER tasted a rat as long as they have been with me. My boys eat warmed up frozen mice, sometimes live baby mice if they are all out of the frozen ones.... I agree with lilspaz on this one, it's not such a great idea to talk about breeding rats to feed to snakes. Yea I understand snakes have to eat but it's like someone bringing in a king snake to your place and letting it lose on your corns. You'll be alarmed that, that king is going to eat your corns (i'm just assuming you have corns). Another reason I'm not a fan of feeding snakes is a lot of people seem to think it's fun/funny to put a live rat in with the snake and let it sit there terrified. I saw a few movies on youtube and almost ended up selling my snakes. I'll be VERY surprised if you find someone on here who breeds for food, I could be wrong but i'll still be very surprised.*


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## Taru

I'm going to post something from another website I belong to. I don't claim to own the picture shown below, it belongs to the person whose name is on it, but I think you guys will apprecitate it. 

I belong to a site called PonyIsland where you can breed ponies and train them and stuff, it really teaches a lot about genetics and such, but on there we have a bunch of other creatures you can adopt, called...adoptables. The Signatures are one of these. They are run by a lovely member called Pocket Change who has a rat rescue, and this boy is in memory of one of the rats she rescued.



> Fate is missing 1/2 of his tail, one of his fingers is broken, he has a bite on his right leg, body infection, chunk out of his ear, fur missing, emaciated, URI and near death. He has a vet appointment tomorrow at noon, however it's almost 100% garauntee for PTS (put to sleep). That is why I made Fate into a Signature, like a memory. Enless the vet has a miricle anitbiotic, he's not going to make it. Apparently the snake played with the rat and then left it. The owner of the snake put the rat back in the cage and left it there figuring he could feed the rat at at later time but once the rat was sick, he no longer wanted to feed it to his snake. Which ment I got a phone call.












After I saw this, and read the story I was completly against having live rats fed to snakes. First off I had a hard time feeding crickets to my lizard, so feeding mice or rats to a snake would be almost impossible. Also there is the whole issue of it not being good for the snake either. So yeah, touchy subject, and I for one am totally against rats as snake food.

Emy


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## Matt

Yeah, Probably wasnt the best idea. 

Oh and just to let everyone who feeds there snakes mice,
mace are not as high in nuetrients as rats are.


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## Forensic

Quite frankly, I don't really care. Feed more mice, if it's an issue.


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## Poppyseed

Our corn snake is ten years old and he is just fine on mice. He is perfectly healthy and fine with just a couple of mice every week.

Sometimes I wonder if pet snakes are overfed. I mean, in the wild it might be a couple of weeks or maybe even a month before they get a meal and they are excercising all the time by crawing everywhere! I don't really know anything about snakes and like I said, Wurm is Chris's snake I don't take care of him, feed him or touch him really.


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## Matt

Lets Just have this Thread die. I had a Bad Idea.


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## 2manyrats

Eh, it's a sad fact of life that rats are just take a low-to-intermediate step on the food chain, but snakes have to eat too.

My roommate breeds for snake food, not as her primary source, but as a supplement to buying frozen. She's very good about making sure the doe is in superb health, and never breeds them too often (2-3 times per doe, with lots of space in between). She euthanizes them at around 3 weeks (at the really cute stage! I couldn't do it!) and freezes them. 

Honestly, I think it's probably better for the welfare of all animals involved that she's breeding every once in a while for food. You don't know what kind of conditions the rats who are feeder-bred were born into, and breeding healthy animals means high quality food for the snake. The does are treated extremely well, also, so the rats involved live quality lives and are treated as humanely as possible.

So, while I'd have a very hard time doing it myself (especially considering her corn snake can only eat baby rats at the adorable stage where they're zooming and nibbling on everything) I don't think that it's inherently a bad thing as long as it is done so that the rats being bred & those being fed are treated well.

Finally, I've seen the warehouse of the local feeder-breeder in the town where I went to college. The conditions were awful, and all of the rats had such bad myco problems that the warehouse sounded like it had a cricket infestation. The rats were really inbred, and they were producing rats with myco problems from birth. That's not the kind of stock you want to breed, even if they're going for snake food. They're weak, inferior rats, and they should never be allowed to further those genetic lines. That's not the kind of business that should be supported. Perhaps there are professional feeder-breeders out there that have great conditions, but I doubt it.


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## crapola

i do believe that here in aussieland it is illegal to live-feed snakes. my uncle has snakes and he only freeze-feeds.


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## Night

Snakes DO have to eat something, yes. But, people can order their pre-killed, frozen rats/mice online. You don't have to breed feeders. Especially in the conditions you keep them in...


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## Matt

2manyrats said:


> Finally, I've seen the warehouse of the local feeder-breeder in the town where I went to college. The conditions were awful, and all of the rats had such bad myco problems that the warehouse sounded like it had a cricket infestation. The rats were really inbred, and they were producing rats with myco problems from birth. That's not the kind of stock you want to breed, even if they're going for snake food. They're weak, inferior rats, and they should never be allowed to further those genetic lines. That's not the kind of business that should be supported. Perhaps there are professional feeder-breeders out there that have great conditions, but I doubt it.


Ours are all Spoiled and DO NOT have any Problems and are not inbred.
They have plenty of water and food and There Cages gat clean once or twice a week.(Depending on how it looks or smells.)

And We Feed Frozen to our Big Snakes and euthanized smalls. (un-frozen)

Some of you may think that we are your normal everyday Backyard Breeder but we are not. My mother and I SPOIL these Rats VERY VERY Much. they DO NOT live in Bad Conditions amd are Very healthy.

Just Wanted to Get that Clear.


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## Forensic

How many times do your females get bred in their lifetime? How young are they bred?


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## Taru

Also, from what I've seen in the pictures of your cages, the cages are very small and very crowded for your rats, also you seem to not separate the females and their litters from the other rats, this is not recomended so I'd worry about their quality of life.

Emy


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## Lestette

Matt said:


> My mother and I SPOIL these Rats VERY VERY Much. they DO NOT live in Bad Conditions amd are Very healthy.


You're kidding right?
If by spoiling you mean, over breeding them like crazy, only to take their babies away to be fed to a snake, then yea sure, you spoil them like crazy.

It's disgusting.
I don't know how people like you live with themselves. Sure, snake have to eat, but there are ways to feed them without over breeding your pets and killing their young.
I'm angry... so I think I'll end it there before I say something I regret.


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## twilight

Where is the proof that he is over breeding? I must have missed it.


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## Forensic

twilight said:


> Where is the proof that he is over breeding? I must have missed it.


I think they're basing that off the pictures in Stephanie's thread that shows many litters of many different ages.

That's why I wanted to know if the limit the number of litters per female and how old they are when they're bred....


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## Matt

First off, the pictures that you seen were of 2 cages. And yes we do feed off the babies but it has to be done. I love rats and I love snakes. 

Second, They are Not over bred and are not inbred.

Third, they are healthy breeders and Do not live in tiny tiny cages.
They are not HUGE but they are not small.


And everyone who cant stand me for breeding for food, Deal with it because it isnâ€™t ending anytime soon. 

Also, what do you think snakes eat in the wild?
Hhmmmm, Let me think? Oh wait, Rats, mice, birds, and so on.


Just let this thread die because I am getting sick of people saying im a bad person for feeding my reptiles.


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## Lestette

I never said that you were a bad person... I think you brought this upon yourself by posting in a rat lovers forum.


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## Matt

like I said, Lets just have it die off.


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## KimmiesGuineas

I'm sorry, but I just need to get this off of my chest.

When you put a male and female in the same cage where it is small enough that the only thing that is natural to them beside eating, drinking, and pooping is breeding and the space is small enough that it's nearly impossible for them to not meet, then that is different than in the wild.

When you take a baby away from a mother who can do nothing and put it in a cage where the snake's *only* food is the baby, that has nothing to protect him/her, then that is different than in the wild.

Your reptiles are *not* in the wild, they are in your house where you can feed them frozen and *you* choose not to because it's cheaper/easier/whatever so comparing them to being in the wild is not accurate.

Nobody is saying you're a bad person, but coming into a rat lovers forum and talking about using them for food is not the thing to do. Especially when you're rude and offensive about it ("Deal with it because it isn't ending anytime soon")

OK, I'm done. This thread can now die.


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## Matt

OMG! WE DONT FEED LIVE! I euthanize them...however you spell that.

THREAD DIE PLEASE


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## Kimmiekins

I'm a bit confused, Matt. In one of your first posts, you said your parents breed feeders, but since the one mention that your parents breed, you've always referred to yourself as doing it all. Which is it?

Second, you couldn't even tell the difference between a male and a female in another thread. How can you consider yourself an experienced breeder if you can't even sex a rat?

Third... You had to realize that a thread about feeder rats wouldn't go over well at a rat fancier's forum.

Lastly, the thread won't die just because you keep asking it to.  Either a mod will close it if they deem it necessary, or it will stay open and people will reply. That's the nature of forums.


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## Matt

okay, my parents have them for breeding and i am a big help in it all.
i didnt know what it was because there are spots that look like nipples on his/her belly but the spots are everywhere on her body so i cant tell for sure.

and i just wanted to know if anyone else breed and sorry it was a bad idea.
and seeing as it got this bad and i am annoying a lot of people i am thinking of leaving the board. that may solve a few prob.'s.

Sorry bout all this.


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## Night

There have been other feeder breeders (well, previous feeder breeders) on the board before, and we simply ask them to not mention what they do. After all, this is a PET rat forum. This is not about breeding rats for food. We love rats here, we don't want to feed them to snakes.

And at that - what exactly are the dimensions of the cages that were pictured? Looks like the height of them is about 8" or less.


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## Matt

they are about 8" but they are also about 40" deep by 40" wide.
And I know that it is a Small cage for them but I didnt build the cage.
I didnt even buy the cage. Lets put it this way...They are not Mine i just help clean them.

And i know somebody is going to respond something like......
"OMG! WTF! Thats SOOOo Small! you are Totchering Those Poor Defenseless rats, How can you live with your self?!?!"

But you know what? I cant do anything about it, ok?


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## Night

You seem like an angst-ridden teenager. You should "sOoOOoOooOo" work on that. 

You already know the cages are *way* too small, so I won't comment on that. But be aware that no matter what the length or width, a height of 8" is about five times (or more) too small for a rat - even a baby. Rats need to have the ability to climb and run. You may not have built those cages, but couldn't you do something about them? Build another tub/wire cage like you are for your "pet" rats? It's not like those things cost anything to make...

I'm sure you can do something about it. Without a doubt.


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## Matt

no you dont understand. we have way more then just 2 racks.

And the only reason i did the SooOoOoOoOoo thing is because a few people did that to me. (it wasnt bout you at all.)

also, i couldnt do anything about it because my dad built them one day when i was sleeping. i said they looked small and it went on from there.


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## Night

So when things happen when you're sleeping, you can't wake up and rectify them?

That's pretty mystical right there.


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## Stephanie

pssst matt I would just walk away from this posting if i were you. . . That said you are keeping them in terrible conditions but everything that has been said can not be said again without pissing matt off. Point being better to drop it and ignore it then to bash on him for being ignorant of the needs of pet rats. Better to teach him how he should be treating them instead of just letting it happen. I love that he helped me out with determining if one of my adopted girls was preggers but not much more can be said on this matter. Matt what you are letting happen under your nose is wrong and you need to say something about it My brother has a snake and he feeds his snake rats and live ones at that but there is nothing he can do about it because the snake won't eat anything else. Feeder breeders are out there and everyone knows it but we don't need to acknowledge it here. I get the food chain and I get that everything has got to eat BUT this is not the place to preach that aspect of your breeding. I think you should stop breeding the rats and start buying the food only because i work in a rescue and we get so many people that call us and say well we were just breeding for food and it got out of hand. Snake don't eat sixteen rats at a time **** lucky if they eat sixteens rats in two months so why so many litters? sorry i am rambling now go back to your posts and say what you will but this post seriously needs to stop and the oly one that can do that is Matt (you are just adding fuel to the fire with your responses)


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## Matt

Why so many Litters?

We Have 90+ Snakes! Did I not Mention That We Breed Exotic Reptiles!?
We Have a Buisness...


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## Poppyseed

That's a lot of snakes to have. But then again, my dad does the same thing with his snakes and rats. I don't live with him or speak to him hardly at all though, and now that I have pet rats that's becomming a HUUUGE issue I have with him :/

I don't like how he keeps his snakes either. All in a small storage totes that are in an organiser. It's very sad, I'm not sure if the snakes are treated with much more respect than the rats...


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## 2manyrats

I really dislike this attitude that makes talking about feeders taboo. If as a community, we open up to feeder-breeders, then we can help them become more aware of what kinds of conditions are appropriate. And improving the lives of rats who are fed to snakes, whether the idea turns your stomach or not, is totally in keeping with the mission of a rat lover.

Running people off, or attacking them, does not create a space in which they can feel comfortable asking questions and increasing their knowledge.


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## Forensic

I don't think it's so much the fact that he's 'feeding' them that's part of the problem. A lot of the comments are involving the conditions, etc.


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## Taru

Yeah, I understand that people have to feed rats to snakes so that their snakes can survive, but the conditions are horrible for most of the feeder breeders. Like 50 rats in a 40" X 40" by 8" high cage. And it looks like the rats are just bred until they are dead. It's not a good situation. 

If people are going to be breeding for food, fine, but treating the creatures like that isn't right.

Emy


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## Matt

One of the Reasons I joined Here is That I Am annoyed with the conditions of breeding rats like crazy. Since i have joined I have a Greater Respect for rats and it is harder to feed them off. 

And Our snakes are not in bad conditions like who evers dads are.


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## KimmiesGuineas

Nobody said anything about your snakes, so don't get your feathers all puffed up. The rats that are in small cages, back-bred, inbred, constantly bred, and from what we can tell, just plain mistreated, is the problem.


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## Matt

i didnt say that you or anyone else mentioned my snakes, i was just saying that they are not living in bad conditions like the persons dads are.

and they are NOT in-bred Back Bred and Constantly Bred.


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## Forensic

Matt - I think right now you have two real choices. One, stop defending yourself and ignore this all or the better option: Two, give us a detailed answer. How are they handled, how are they fed, what are they fed, how many per cage, how often are they bred, how young are they bred, who are they bred to, etc. That may put people at ease if your rats are treated as well as you say they are.


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## Matt

Me and My mom Handle tem Every day for around 30 minutes a day. 
I also, hold some before bed. they are Fed Mazuri lab Blocks Everyday. I give a little of whatever I am eating that day and I give them some of the extra food From dinner.
4 Kept Per Cage, They are Bred 1 time a month, Not inbred.
They are bred to a different cage who has NO Relation.

What else to put people at ease?


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## Forensic

How many litters per doe per lifetime?


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## Taru

Well how many times do you breed your females, you said once a month, is that for their whole lives? 

How old are they when you start breeding them? 

How old when you stop? 

What happens to the females when they are no longer breedable? 

What happens to the males when they are no longer used for breeding?

How do you choose who is bred to who? Are the females just dropped in a cage full of males and then removed a week later?

Obviously you keep more then four per cage. The picture you posted shows that. This picture shows four females PLUS their litters. 









How old are the babies when you ween them from the mother? 

How often do you completly clean the cages?

What type of bedding do you use?


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## KimmiesGuineas

Are the males and females kept together?

Why are some rats weaning babies of different age groups? 

Do you have an exotic animal vet?

If they are held so much and often, why does one bite so hard she could cause nerve damage (joke or not)? I don't know much, but I do know that rats rarely ever bite.

Do you have a cage specifically for breeding or is a male put in with the females or vice versa?

Do they have anything to keep them entertained?

A rat's gestation period is 3 weeks, and you breed them once a month?

How old are they when they stop and start their breeding life?

How many litters does a doe have before she isn't used for breeding any more?

I'm sure that pictures of your whole set-up would also be nice as from what we can make out their cages are small and overcrowded.


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## Poppyseed

I'll give you my opinion on what you can do to make this better.

Get a taller cage, at least 16-18" tall that one doesn't give them enough room to stand up and stretch out vertically which rats love to do.

Is that pine bedding? Use aspen bedding or carefresh or just wood stove pellets from a feed store would work well too.

Four to a cage is fine, all males in one all females in another. When a female is bred, put them in a breeding tank by themselves. Don't keep them with the males and other females. When the babies are 4-5 weeks of age seperate them by sexes.

And did I mention a taller cage? That's a HUGE issue with me. They just look so cramped and unhappy in that dark cage they can't stand up in ): That and it looks as if that one female has a litter of all ages, to me that means she probably is kept with a male after she has had her litter and is impregnated with another that she has to care for even before her current litter is weaned.

I mean, I know you are growing an attachment to rats and I find it wonderful. Just know that pet and feeder rats are from the same lines and have the same personalities. One of those rats kept in poor conditions could if kept in better conditions and loved be just like my Bastian, or my Joshu (who both were in the feeder tanks). They could be just like everyone's here heart rats. The only difference is they aren't taken care of and killed to feed a snake.

And again, I don't live with my dad or have hardly a relationship with him at all, so I have no say in what he does but you at least have a say in what your parents do. You seem to have time to make a cage, so why not make taller larger cages for the feeders? Why not work towards improving their conditions as well for their short ill fated lives?


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## Holly

This thread breaks my heart.


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## KimmiesGuineas

Holly said:


> This thread breaks my heart.


Same here. This is very sad


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## Kimmiekins

To me, as well.

I keep seeing "Breeder Business" all around, and that's a clue that things aren't kept the best. If it's a business, then it makes money, and you can't provide optimal care for the animals if you're looking to make money. It's just not possible.

Even breeders who breed SHOW and PET animals don't make money. All the money doesn't even cover the costs. That's why no breeders should be looking to make money. In fact, they should expect to loose it.

I don't think I can be convinced that any of the animals under the care of you family are really properly taken care of. There's no possible way they could be, if it's a business that makes money. You wouldn't get enough money for the animals to make it that way.

What happens to the other animals that your family breeds? Are they sold for food, as well?


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## KimmiesGuineas

I think that they breed exotic reptiles to sell and then breed the rats to feed to them as it's easier/cheaper/something. I may be wrong, but that's what I've gotten from it.


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## Kimmiekins

That would make sense, if they're breeding reptiles and then rats and rabbits as food. So, having the rats and rabbits makes it cheaper for them to run the business, thereby making more money.

Nope, couldn't convince me that any of the animals have the best care possible.


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## KimmiesGuineas

Not to be rude or hurtful, but I agree with (the other!) Kimmie. I don't think they're being taken care of like they should be.


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## Matt

The Rats are not being taken care of as they should. But i didnt know that until now.
I also know that doing this save HUNDREDS of Dollors on food for all animals.
Like I said Before, Nobody here knows the conditions of our other animals.
Our animals Are in Good condition and are Not Sick or dieing or have any health issues.

The rats may not have all the requirements but nobody in the family knew that before i joined here.

i would Post a link to our website but we currently have no pics because we sold out at our last Reptile show.

Also, Just to let everybody who thinks we are wasting money by getting these expense reptiles and selling them.
We bought a 5,000 dollor snake, bred it, grew babies a little, sold them at 10,000 dollors a peice. and we had 20 babies. and sold them all. we earned 20,000. 5,000 outta that for the mom, about 500 for food for all babies and parents.
hmmm, i think we made a profit. and thats only 1 Snake.
dont forget about our couple hundred geckos and lizards.


And I assure you, every animal we own except the rats are living in the best possible conditions.

and as i keep trying to say, I joined this site so i can try to make my parents put them in better conditions. I try my best to do things but i can only do so much.

All this nonsense going on is making it harder for me to ask questions and learn more. I wanna be able to give my dad hundreds of reasons to let me buy or build better cages but i cant because this crap is going to far.


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## Nazarath

*I don't want to sound mean or miss know-it-all blah blah. If you sold all those baby snakes and got $20,000 then I believe you said -$5,000 for mom? which would leave you with $15,000 then - another $500.00 for food. You still have $14,500 you could buy 20+ ferrit nations with that kind of money? why not just buy them bigger cages and save yourself the hassel of building them? yea they take up a lot of room but maybe then you can get a R-550? I think I might have spelt that wrong since I don't own one. Then your rats will have bigger cages and all that Jazz. Once again I'm not trying to attack you I understand you still have all those other snakes to look after but you must have SOME money to buy food for the family and stuff?? *


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## KimmiesGuineas

I agree, if you're making all of this money then why can't you afford to have the rats in some better conditions? 

If you show your parents this thread and how everybody is saying how awful the conditions are, maybe that will help? Because, not being mean or anything, but they _are_ awful.

Also, being smart-alecky (deal with it, not going to stop anytime soon, hmmm i think we made a profit, crap, etc.) is not the way to go about doing things if you're wanting information. Nobody is attacking you, so stop being defensive and start helping those rats.


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## Matt

the buisness just started off 2 years ago and is still in the beginning process of getting the name out there.(you know what i mean?)

Seeing as we have lost a lot of money starting off it will be gained this breeding season.(not rats breeding)
My dad said that we can look into new caging and that i could post our options and let everyone tell me what they think.

I talked him into it finally. but it will only happen if we sell out again which is easy to do. so i will be talking bout new caging in a few weeks.
until then i will try and give them the best little lives possible.


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## KimmiesGuineas

That's what everybody wants to hear! Well done


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## Matt

so now that i am on the road of getting better conditions even though it will take some time...are we all good?

I just dont wanna be the bad guy. I joined here so that i could speak up for the little critters. also, if i didnt care i wouldnt be trying to rescue as many possible from the snakes.
'

so, we all cool?

Can we have all this end and get back to rats?

Please? we all joined here to learn and to teach people so i think we should get back to that.(i am not trying to sound mean or anything.)


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## KimmiesGuineas

I don't think anybody ever disliked you, just what was happening with the rats. I think that we're all fine, just don't bring up feeding or the conditions again unless you're reporting that they've improved!


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## Matt

I wont, Unless like you say, they improve.


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## Nazarath

*Yes, I personally have no problem with you personally becuase you are TRYING to help that rats, Your not just sitting on your butt lol. Like everyone has been saying it's not you it's just how the rats .... were? .... being kept .*


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