# Suddenly Aggressive Young Male



## Adrian (Dec 31, 2013)

Hey, I have 3 unaltered young male rats that are just now turning about 3 months old. I have had them for a month. I understand that at the 3 month mark males will start to become more aggressive with each other and begin to form their pecking order, but I am afraid I may have an overly aggressive rat or one who may become overly aggressive.

I am new to owning males in a group who have not been fixed (only male I ever owned was a single rescue that had been fixed), so I have no experience with how long a male may exhibit aggressive behavior and to what extent is normal.

Rollo, who has always been bigger and more muscular then his brother (Askell) and his similarly aged friend (Falon) has been turning into a jerk over the last week. His play has gone from simply jumping on his cage mates and rolling around with them to penning them down for long periods of time and puffing himself up and pushing his back end up against them when they are cornered, and sometimes nipping their backs and legs for no apparent reason. Also when the other two begin playing fighting, he always jumps in and breaks it up by penning them both in turn in an aggressive way that is definitely not play. Then he may go back and forth, jumping on them and penning them. This can go on for a solid hour, and when he gets like this he is just generally a jerk and the other two rats are pretty unhappy. Although he makes his cage mates squeak fairly often, he has not drawn blood and the squeaks seem to be out of frustration and stress, because he rarely nips at them. They squeak when being penned.

He has also started nipping me. Well, nip doesn’t seem quiet like the right word, because I always thought of a nip as a quick bite without breaking the skin. He puts his mouth on me and rather slowly applies pressure, but it’s definitely hard. I jerk away and squeak. He stops, but then later will do it again. I realized there are some situates I had put him in that made him do this (such as if when we were playing he would run into a corner, he would push me away and nip, so I don’t touch him anymore if he corners himself), but other times there seems to be no reason. This morning he casually walked up and nipped me while I was petting his brother, then pushed me away with his hands.

Here is a bit of other info about Rollo: He never grooms me. Never ever, and sometimes (more often then not lately) he does not want me to pet or groom him either, and will nip and push me away. I’ve never had a rat who seemed so indifferent to me. I had been making a lot of progress with getting him a lot more used to me and more confident in general up until this week when he began nipping me and the other rats. It is very rare that he will groom the other two rats unless he has them penned and is “power grooming” them. Also, this is kind of hard to explain via text, but Rollo has always seemed to see me more as a food dispenser and an object to climb onto when he wants to get out of the cage for free time. He does play with me, allowing me to gently grab at him and he will happily hop away and back again, but otherwise does not seem to see me as a living thing like the other two do.

All this being said, he still sleeps with the other rats, can eat beside them without fighting and can have hours of peacefulness without feeling then need to tackle and pen anyone. He also still plays with me, starting it by playfully hopping around while my hand is in the cage (and is fine and doesn’t nip now that I have seen he will suddenly turn if he finds himself in a corner).

So my questions are how long may this aggressive behavior last? Is he being overly aggressive to the other two rats? Should I stop petting/grooming/playing with him altogether for a while or would that be worse in the long run? I can have him fixed, but if this will pass, I don’t see a need for it. As I said, I’ve just never had a group of males before and am unsure of this is normal and if there is any particular way to handle it.

(sorry for such a long post, I just wanted to give as much helpful info as I could.)


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

First, don't squeak or give him any ground that he doesn't need. You are a very low ranking rat to him it sounds like. You need to start petting/grooming him confidently and dominantly. He nips, pin him. 

Intervene when he is being a bully to tell him no via boops and pins and such. 

Start giving him more opportunity to expend energy. 

This can last six more months. 


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## Adrian (Dec 31, 2013)

Hm, seems like there is some totally conflicting info out there. I've also read that you should NEVER boop or pen rats when they are aggressive. I'm not saying you're wrong or I wont try it, I'm just frustrated with all the conflicting info I've found about how to handle this.

Anyhow, after I had posted this Rollo was sleeping alone because the other two had gotten real tired of his aggression earlier in the day, so I pet/groomed him while he was laying down and calm. He pushed me away a few times, but I kept doing it and gave him treats while I pet him. No nips this time.

Thank you for the advice!


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## Nathan4d (Feb 17, 2013)

With babies the squeak works but when it comes to pecking order squeaks can be submissive


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It is the same with behavioral modification with any animal, unfortunately. I'm certainly not advocating abuse or pain or frightening your rats, it's more like strutting about like a peacock. You're not that big, but you need to puff up and have that perception about you. 

A good alpha rat doesn't need to assert himself such; but rollo is certainly the strongest. But, you are bigger than him. So, remind him he can rule the mischief but to your approval - a despot. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I think you are going to find a lot of conflicting information out there. I wrote the guide on immersion, which might be helpful to you, but in general most of us here on Rat Forum believe in being the parent to our rat families, shorthand Alpha to your pack. 

And we have lots of success with aggressive bully rats here. Basically you take charge and set the rules and most rats who are smart fall in line. And yes, many of us bop our rats or pin them or otherwise exert authority when needed... (I bop, smack or toss, but don't pin) and no we don't abuse our rats or torture them or hurt them. 

Rollo is taking charge! He is pushing you around. He is beating up his roommates and testing you... Take a good look at how he is doing it. That is precisely the way a rat understands who is boss. Rollo is speaking rat. So when you submissively squeak, what's he thinking about you? Is he thinking you are a great leader and protector or is he thinking you are a food dispensing subordinate... and how is he going to treat you as an inferior? He's going to push you around like any other submissive rat. Is he going to want to be your friend? Think about in high school, did the poor, fat, stupid and ugly girls have lots of friends? Or were the cheer leaders and football players most popular? Everybody wants to have cool, strong and confident friends, even rats don't want to hang out with losers. So yes, you don't want to let Rollo push you around and you want to take charge and he will love you for it. Like a kid is proud of a strong and wealthy dad and educated and fair mom.

Now if you go elsewhere on the internet, you are going to read lots of old ideas still being tossed around... Trust training works on frightened and timid rats, not on aggressive ones... It's not that Rollo doesn't trust you, he's picking on you. And forced socialization has its benefits but really doesn't speak to most people... And behavior modification works to a degree with problem rats, but the positive reinforcement only version is useless with biting and aggressive rats... Seriously, giving a rat a treat to let go of your finger isn't much of a behavior modifier.. he's just going to bite you again to get another treat.

I developed immersion working with an incredibly intelligent true shoulder rat and observing wild rats... it's geared around the way rats really think and is based on communication between rats and humans. Rats are in fact very smart and can learn from us and communicate back to us... And Rollo is telling you he is in charge and you are going to have to correct this misunderstanding or things will get worse...

Now if you have any doubts, read through threads here at rat forum and you will find many rats fixed and living happy lives with their humans... go to the other web sites and count the neuters.... For the most part when trust training fails, and positive reinforcement makes things worse male rats get neutered. And neutering works sometimes, it reduces a rats hormone level and puts him through a terrible trauma that knocks the wind out of his sails and when that fails watch the advise there stop or move to putting your rat to sleep... Yes it's better to neuter or euthanize a rat than to bop him (with love in your heart) or smack him (tenderly).

No, tough love and immersion doesn't fix every rat, but it actually fixes lots of them, if not most, it's a real alternative to neutering and it makes sense both to rats and humans. I know you don't want to be harsh... but just watch Rollo, is he being gentle with his roommates or even you? 

Read immersion, there are even arguments against it there by some folks from other web sites, check out "elsewhere" and make you own call... You can even try squeaking and rewarding bad behavior, just keep in mind it will make things even harder to fix.. you can believe those people that claim that humans and rats can't communicate and bond and neuter all your rats in hopes of making them docile... it's your call. If you don't get the results you want, you can even still neuter your rat and if that doesn't work, we've succeeded with immersion on neutered rats that were still aggressive.

I would like to add one footnote, there is basic immersion for normal rats which is playful and fun and extreme immersion for seriously screwed up rats, extreme immersion with rats that are attacking you and biting hard is serious business and you can get hurt. If you ever feel that's where you are headed feel free to ask for as much advise as you need before undertaking the procedure.

And how long does it last... it gets worse until you stop it.

Best luck.


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## Adrian (Dec 31, 2013)

Well, after a few bops today nipping has gone away. After I bopped Rollo the last time he backed into a corner and pushed me away with one of his hind feet defensively, so I put my hand over him and “force groomed” him. I held him there and scratched him firmly on he back of the neck (the way he would force groom the other two males) until he stopped fighting it and relaxed. Now I can actually pet him without him trying to push me away and nipping or doing all he can to squirm away.

He is also being less aggressive with the other two males. After I asserted dominance over him the first time (I did it a few more times when he became too rowdy with the other two boys) he calmed down some with the other rats. They also ganged up on him once and chased him around for quite some time, both of them penning him and urine marking him. I didn’t interfere with it because they were not biting him and I figured they needed to be able to show him that he cant just attack them all the time for no reason.

He still has no interest in grooming me or being affectionate with me at all. I give him my hand often, like I do the other two, and he just sniffs and ignores or shies away (he shies away if he recently got a bop for nipping me or being too rough with a cage mate). I put some applesauce on my knuckles for him to lick off as if he was grooming me because this worked so well with the other two rats and helped him get used to me in the first few weeks I had him. Although he has never been very food motivated so after just a little applesauce he became uninterested again. He also didn’t want to be outside of the cage today with the other two for very long and he normally loves being out. He was skittish while out and finally asked to be let back in the cage (he does this by jumping up on my shoulder and he leans over towards the cage and it’s really obvious he wants to go there. He does the same thing when he wants out of the cage; gets on my shoulder and leans towards the bed where I drop all of them off for free range time).

So, all in all, we’re better then we were this morning with no biting and a bit less fighting with the other two boys. Still no affection towards me, but I can pet and groom him and he just submits to it. Hoping he will regain his confidence soon about being outside of his cage again and that he will also grow to be affectionate.


Thanks for all the help, I wasn’t expecting to see such an improvement so fast (they way he submits to letting me groom him and doesn’t nip anymore seems like a big improvement to me in only a few hours). Thanks Big Daddy, I read your post about immersion. I wish I has read it earlier. Trust training worked great for Askell and Falon but now I see Rollo needed a different approach.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Don't be surprised if Rollo tests you again before he gives up his dreams of domination... But you know what to do now. Nice work...

You won't need to dominate Rollo or be overly forceful. You can let him have a strong personality but you can't let him push you or your other pack members around. Once he understands the new world order, he'll come around and love you and respect you for being his protector, leader and friend... And that's what being a parent and an alpha is all about. Also if he is a gifted rat do find ways to challenge him so he doesn't get bored and get into other mischief.

Best luck.


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