# Fighting



## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi guys,
My 2 rats keep fighting, I thought at first they were just struggling for dominance but now poor little gandolf has had his cheek bitten badly for the forth time I really dont know what to do.
Most of the time there so happy and love eachother sleep together groom each other play together etc...
Dont really want to seperate them because then they will both be lonely and if I got them both new friends then there is still the chance there is going to be bullying (plus I really dont have room for 2 ratteries) The cage they are in at the moment is the big ferplast one for rats/ferrets and is ment to house up to 4 rats. Would introducing a 3rd rat help? I wasnt sure if that would help the power struggle?
Thanks
Caz


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, there's no easy answer. Rats are very intellegent and have emotions so there might be almost anything going on in thier little minds. 

I recently introduced a new girl to my old one and they got along well right from the start. They went right to cuddling together. Then little scabs started appearing on the new girl's back, which I figured might be little bites and then an inch long scab appeared on my big girl at the base of her neck. Otherwise the rats got along. Perplexed, I plunked them both on my desk and watched them preening and scratching themselves. 

So just in case, I decided to treat them for mites with revolution. I mean I just got a new rat and she might have brought in mites and as unlikely as it was mites cause scabs too. After the treatment the scabs seem to be healing there are no new ones so far, so if they were coming from fighting, they have stopped fighting and they have stopped scratching. Oddly enough they have also stopped cuddling together. And as soon as the new rat climbs on me the old one jumps off. My big rattie won't come out of the cage unless I take her out first. If I pick up the new rattie first, the old one goes right back into her house. My big girl was a single rattie for most of her life, she seems to be happy about having a friend, but at the same time there are a whole lot of tiny little wheels spinning around in her little rattie head making it very hard to understand her behavior sometimes.

I'm not saying your ratties have mites, nor am I 100% sure mine did. But where I'm going is that rat's fighting might not always be a dominence thing. If my guess is right my ratties snuggled together because they felt poorly and they fought because they were irritable or uncomfortable. More out of cage play time might help if they are just getting on each other's nerves, a third rat might improve the dynamic, rearragning their cage might even help. 

Usually it's pretty easy to diagnose dominance issues. And this kind of agression is the most common cause of injuries, but sometimes there's a lot more going on that we just aren't looking for. Ratties don't speak english, but they aren't keeping secrets either, try to observe them and see if you can figure out what the fights are about. Try things like putting another hiding spot into the cage, adding a couple more toys, spending more hands on time with the agressor in case he's jealous. Try to tweak the situation and use you intuition to devine the problem.

And yes, if it doesn't work you might wind up seperating your ratties possibly for a few days or perhaps perminently and adding another rattie could change the dynamic... or not.


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## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for getting back to me  I was going to use xeno mini on them but wasnt sure of the dose dont have scales at home and my maths is appauling so will have to find out.
I think mayb it is a jelously thing, hadnt even thought of that as I only really handle gandolf and jon snow appears to want nothing to do with me when I do try and handle him or stroke him he bites me he loves play time though so i just let him have the run of the room and do his furry thing but gandolf does love a little cuddle but I dont make him so I dunno.
Guess I will have to wait and see.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well now there's a problem, you have an unsocialized rat in your cage that doesn't recognize the pack order with you as the alpha. Poor thing is so far on the wrong page no wonder he's attacking Gandolph, he's even biting you! And he's going to continue striking out until he gets socialized and invited into the family.

I intend no offense, but keeping an unsocialized rat in your home under any circumstances is a very bad idea and it's hard on the rattie. Both the one that doesn't know how he should behave and the one getting bitten.

I've posted a lot on the how to's of socializing rats, and there are other folks here with very good ideas too... IMHO, that's where you need to start right away.


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## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

I've been trying to do forced socialising but he just bites hes been like this since day one and hasnt shown any improvment at all, I've read all the posts on socialising the only time he occasionally is friendly is if he is on the sofa and im sat on the floor then he will sniff my hair but then he runs away again, my partner has tried handleing him too and he just bites him as well. I flip him over and scratch his tummy as well none of it seems to make him any better if anything he seems worse and its like the more I try and hold him the more angry he gets! I do have them both out every day though. Thanks for your advise.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, so Jon Show isn't just a little pushy towards his roomie, and he isn't just unsocialized, he's a human unfriendly biter. I think we're starting to get a bigger pricture of your problem here.

Now, to be entirely honest, I can't see any benefit to having a rat that bites you when there are lots of human friendly, sweet and loving rats out there in need of a great forever home like yours. But that's your call. 

There are lots of threads, several of which I've commented on regarding socializing Jon. If you can get him properly socialized there's a good chance everything else will work out. 

If not and you want to keep Jon, he's best kept alone and in a cage away from humans and other rats. Likely he'll live a pretty miserable life and become more and more antisocial, but that's the best option for you and Gandalf and other than rehoming him, the only safe option for Jon. As to Gandalf, you can go out and adopt a nice, sweet and friendly rattie and he, Gandalf and your family will be the happier for it. 

Yes, I know I sound cruel, but take a minute to think about it, a biting rat just isn't a pet any more than a vicious dog.


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## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks  I'm gunna get him castrated next week and keep at it! will give him a few more months unless he does Gandolph any more damage and see how he gets on.
Thanks again


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The problem with giving advise on line is that I really can't see the problem first hand. Your problem originally started out as cagemates fighting that might be irritated by parasites and a couple of posts later turned into a full blown unsocialized biting rat.

Surgery generally helps most if your rattie's problems are hormonal rather than behavorial. The typical symptoms are a happy friendly boy that turns mean and nasty and loses self control and starts attacking everything in sight. Now I'm not sure I've got the whole picture yet, like how old was Jon when you got him and how long have you had him or what exactly you have tried to do to socialize him. Your description so far doesn't necessary fit hormonal agression either. As he came in screwed up and he hasn't gotten better isn't the typical hormonal agression model. (and your ratties might still have mites, you might as well check them for odd scarbs in any event, even though the problem isn't likely the big issue)

What's important is that I think you are on the right page now; getting Jon socialized. So with attention to where you got him, how old he was, how long you have had him and what you have tried and how often and how he has reacted lets start over. I think before you invest in surgery we need to try and determine if he was screwed up by his life prior to living with you and go over exactly what you have already done to try to help him then consider the surgical option in light of all that. Castrating a rat that was screwed up by mishandling, abuse, or neglect often doesn't help, nor should it take months to break a rat from biting.

In the rat's mind he bites for a reason. My new rattie was severely neglected, she is sweet, and friendly but she is desperate for attention. So if I have both rats out and I'm snuggling with my big squishey rat, she climbs on my shoulder pinches my cheek in her teeth and turns my head towards her then claws my lips open and sticks her head into my mouth... It's annoying but she's telling me she wants my attention. Would she bite for attention? I'm not going to try and find out. 

Other rats fight or bite to establish pack order. It's what they are pre-programmed to do. In nature, a new rat would meet a new pack and the meeting would inevitably end in a fight with the alpha who would stomp the new rat until it submits by rolling over and showing it's vulnerablity and submissiveness and then the alpha will groom it's belly to welcome the new member into it's pack. This doesn't take months. Its fast furious and possibly brutal but it's over relatively fast. Same with the immersion or forced socialization done properly. In immersion, before I ever show a rat his new cage I handle, play with and if necessary dominate then reward the new rattie until it's on the right page then I introduce my other rat(s) to the game and manage the introduction by refereeing. This process can take several to many hours, but it's what rats do and expect. And even though I only bring home human friendly rats right from the start so I don't usually get any real biting even "nice rats" realize what's going on and things can get pretty hairy. Immersion vs forced socialization takes advantage of the natural rat meet and greet process, but in your case, not knowing how long you have had Jon, you not only have to undo the damage done to him before you got him, but you have to dethrone him from his current alpha status. And that gets harder. In his mind he's the boss and when anybody defies his authority he's challenged and has to take charge by whatever means necessary. Also badly done forced socialization makes matters worse...

You take Jon out of the cage, you try to handle and manage him and to flip him over and skritch his belly and he bites you and you let go and he gets to go back to his cage or run off, worse yet chase you around in triumph and you are reinforcing his status. He won, you lose; he's the boss and he knows he needs to bite you to assert his dominance. Repeat the process a few times and each time he becomes more determined until you practically need shock and awe to gain control. But so far, I'm only talking hypotheticaly based on other folks problems.

If you would like some help on socialization, my way and I'm sure others will chime in lets start with you posting the details and the specifics of your case. You might also want to invest in a pair of thick leather gloves and find an old plushy handtowel as well as prepare an area of your home for the upcoming combat where you and Jon (and eventually Gandalf, as he's part of the pack too) will have room to maneuver. You're also going to have to clear you schedule because the process doesn't end until you win and he submits. Once he gets on the right page, you are going to have to keep working with him every day rewarding his good behavior and detering the bad.

Yes, neutering works for hormonal agression, but not for other rat problems. Strong socialization does sometimes help with hormonal agression, as less dominent rats produce fewer hormones. Lets see if we can't figure out what's going on and give Jon the help he really needs.


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## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

I will reply to the last message when I get a free min but I've made a tiny bit of progress  I had Jon out from just after 6 till just after midnight and every time he climbed off me I plonked him back on and kept pinning him and belly scritching and he eventually... EVENTUALLY.... said Ok lady you win and sat in my lap and let me fuss him for about 30 mins and I gave him a treat and put him back  Please tell me this is a good thing! Although then Gandolf was thoroughly disgusted that he only got about 30 mins of cuddles that night but I think its progress! x


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, actually that's how it works! You don't break a horse by getting on, getting ejected and repeating the process every day for a year. You keep getting back on until the horse gets tired of putting up a fight and agrees to let you sit on him. 

Same with socializing rats, you keep on them until they learns you are not giving up, you are the boss, you call the shots and you give the love and the treats. Because Jon's been in charge for so long, you are going to have to keep up what you are doing for a while... perhaps a few days or a little bit longer until you see he accepts your authority, there may be a few setbacks, and this isn't a linear process. But the best way people tend to describe the change in their rats is spontaneous... Rats tend to fight most fervently before they fold and give in... Then suddenly they just fall in line and become the squishy little friends you wanted all along. Rats like humans have lightbulb moments, one minute they are in the dark the next they seem to get the big picture.

When I hear my rats act up, I just shout "stop it" and everything is quiet. Both rats know I'm in charge so they just stop brawling. It's good to be the alpha. Once you have taken charge and established pack order with you at the top, hopefully the fighting will stop by itself, but if not, you will be able to work with Jon to teach him it's bad to beat up his brother and he's going to listen to you. I know I hijacked your thread but first things first, theres nothing you can teach an unsocialized rat and few things you can't work out with a rat that loves, respects and trusts you. 

So, you've made a great leap forward, not taken a tiny step. You are doing socialization right and your rat is responding. Thats very good... Now remember, never back down, don't stop until he is submissive and be generous with praise, skritches and treats. Good alpha rats often do more preening than getting preened but only until after thier pack members are on the right page.

So congrats on your progress!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gandalf might not like the time you spend with Jon now, but I think he'll appreciate the change in his cagemate later... And I'm sure you won't forget about his needs after Jon calms down. It's going to be a fluid dynamic between you and two rats, but one you can handle once you can handle both rats.


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