# Breeder Red Flags



## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

So you made the decision to get a rat from a breeder rather than a pet shop but now you have to ask yourself if the breeder is actually responsible/ethical or a BYB (back yard breeder). 

Anyone can breed, tossing a boy & a girl together will often make babies! That doesn't make anyone qualified, responsible, legit or in any way ethical. And it doesn't make their rats good either. An irresponsible breeder will often not be breeding for health or temperament at all. Infact their rats could be just as bad if not worse then pet store mill rats!

So I wanted to share *MY OWN* opinions on red flags to look for when choosing a breeder. 

All breeders do things differently and have their own views on what is right or wrong. It is super easy to be judgmental if someone does something different than you but I tried to keep my "red flags" as more hardlines & not too picky or judgmental just because someone does something different than what I would do. These are things that are related to health and wellbeings of the rats.

I encourage you to talk with the breeder, ask questions- they should be willing to be open and honest. If something seems shady, go with your gut.

If you disagree, want to share your own red flags or have questions post!!

So these are my red flags & things that I would consider BYB and not ethical or responsible.



Obviously any abuse or neglect situations. If the animals are living in dirty conditions, not having food or water, are being injured. I also think over crowding, where the animals do not have their own space or worse when it leads to fights and they just let them stay like that.


I fully support and push rescuing animals. I do not support BYBs or mills or pet shops that sell animals. 
I think responsible breeding is important to make better/healthier/sweeter animals. I am really adamant on only breeding for a good purpose. Breeding to better and improve the animal- be it for show, health, temperament. 

But I do think it is wrong for people to just breed because they can. Just throwing any two animals together, because they wanna play with cute babies or raise them from a baby, because they think little fluffy won't be happy unless they mate or have one litter, someone who has a nice pretty rat and wants to clone it through breeding (that is not how it works people!) lol, or people just want to make money. Alot of animals are in need of homes, don't just bring more into the world just because you can.

So I do feel responsible breeders will be breeding for a purpose. Recently I was asked by someone what I thought about a breeder based on their website (alot was wrong lol) but one thing that stood out was that they had no purpose with their rats. They were not focused on any type of lines, they just picked two rats and put them together. It showed that they likely had no clue about genetics & likely did not care. IMO they should be able to tell you- we focus on this variety. Some things you may notice is litters where there are alot of different colors, alot of black babies, parents who are totally different- these things do not necessarily mean anything wrong, people breed blacks and sometimes you will get litters of different colors and different parents. But I would then ask what their goal is? What varieties are they trying to work with? 



It bothers me when people sell babies too young. I see so many people on groups say they just got this little baby from a breeder & it is just 2-3-4 weeks old. I have seen breeders say they have to sell so young because their customers want the baby experience. 
 I think as a pet breeder there is just zero reason to sell babies that young. Babies need their mom for both nutrition and to learn proper social behaviors. On top of it rehoming young is dangerous- it can lead to under socialized babies that do not properly speak rat, making it harder to introduce them to other rats in the future. In homes that already have rats, it can put them at risk of injury or death from fighting just on size alone.
Also getting your rat super young is not going to make it bond any better with you. You are not missing out on the baby experience by getting a rat at a proper age. 6-8 weeks is the ideal time to rehome babies. They are still babies at this age! You will have a healthier, more well rounded rat by waiting though!

Im a bit judgy here, but to me it speaks of just wanting to hurry and pass them off probably to save room/expense. It has nothing to do with the animals best interest.








Along with that I really do not like the idea of people who breed their does nonstop. You see some people just keep them with the male forever and have them just nonstop tossing out babies. That is in no way good for the mom. Even just having one or a few back to back litters is not good.
Moms need time to rest and recover between litters. Being pregnant and nursing babies is hard on their body. They need time to gain back weight and be strong again. Breeding a mother not in good strong health is only going to make weak unhealthy babies. I prefer waiting atleast 30 days between the time the babies are weaned to remate her, at the earliest.

I think in some cases experienced breeders may rebreed sooner than ideal, I wouldn't necessarily knock someone for that in itself. You are working within time frames, being able to judge how a mom is doing and if she is ok can be done. But back to back breeding is a bad sign to me.

The same goes for breeding too young or too old. Babies should not be having babies. A doe needs to grow and develop before being mated. She needs to reach maturity & be a good solid weight. The same way an older doe should be retired. Either too young or too old, the doe will not be in the healthiest conditions. Meaning you are putting her and the babies at risk and lowering the chance for truly healthy babies. That isn't putting the animals well being first and IMO unethical. IMO a female should not be bred younger than 5 months, with 6 being better (though it goes off her weight as well) and I prefer to retire females at 10 months old, some go to a year. I will say that for experienced breeders sometimes breeding outside those ages is possible. It should be a case by case choice and done so with good reason and care. But if you are seeing a breeder give no care on age at all.... big red flag to me.



People who do stupid things like remove their babies tails because "it freaks out people". That really happened. Someone cut the tails off their little baby rats to have an easier time selling them to homes who didn't like tails...
Also those who pretend to have something special & unique when it is not. I do not mean people who do have a newer or more rare variety or even a variety that isn't as common in their area. I think pushing that is fine. But I mean more people who make stuff up to make it sound better. Kindof like the designer dogs. Your dog is a mutt. I have seen someone trying to sell rats as manx when they clearly were just injured- type of thing. Or people making up a variety or calling one thing something else to make it sound cooler.



Rescue/breeding I don't think works well together but I really think breeding said rescues is unethical. 
I knew someone (wont name them) who ran both a rattery and rescue. There were some obvious questions about like quarantine methods. But they would "rescue" rats that were just being rehomed on like craigslist, buy babies from accidental litters, even the whole saving feeders thing. Most of the rats they had no way of knowing their history or even age. Yet they bred their rescues.... Just so many things wrong with that IMO. 

Like first of all when you rescue an animal it should really be given a good happy life, retire it and love it. Not put it to work. They clearly were not trying to better anything that way but were only breeding cute colors/markings. I do not think it is quite safe to be breeding unknown rats all the time, I think again there are some cases where experienced rat breeders could but not like that situation.




Not letting animals suffer. Like people who would just let their injured or sick rat suffer and die without treating it themselves or seeking a vet. At the very least euthanize it. 
 


There are definitely other things I would like to see or prefer myself. But those are my definite hard lines that I would be comfortable saying no that breeder is not being ethical.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Some things that are sometimes considered red flags but I do not feel they are....

1. Having a closed rattery- This means you do not let people inside your rattery to see it, check out the rats, etc....
IMO actually NOT having a closed rattery would be a red flag.

Having a closed rattery does not mean you are trying to hide anything. Ask for pics/videos if you want to see their set up. Yes they can stage pics but they likely could clean everything and only show you what they want to show you if you stopped in as well.
The reason for a closed rattery is not to hide anything but to protect the health of the rats. There is a very important reason we quarantine our rats & letting strangers walk right in defeats that purpose. You can carry all kinds of stuff on you and your clothing, if you have rats or have visited a pet store. And you may think hey I don't own rats & swear you haven't visited with any or been to any pet stores.... but lets face it, you are still a stranger and can lie. It is nothing personal. But why risk an entire mischief to make someone feel better? If something sprang up it could mean wiping out an entire rattery (which has happened before to people), or sick rats- which could mean very expensive vet bills, treating alot of rats, possibly having to remove entire lines that you have worked hard for out of your breeding program or stopping all sales you lined up until things can be ok.

There is also the issue of safety. Craigslist killer anyone? People can seem like awesome trustworthy people and yet kill, harm, rob you. Letting strangers in your home is always risky.
Here is a good post on why closed rattery(not my website) 

2. Bin cages
Many breeders use bin cages to breed their rats in. Some even have racks built where many bin cages are used. Bin cages, are plastic totes with the sides/tops removed and replaced with hardware cloth for ventilation. Bin cages are actually the preferred way to breed. They are safe for babies- no one will fall out. And are super easy to clean/disenfect. Using bins as nursery cages is not bad at all! 
The main thing is that they are kept clean, not over crowded, large enough size. I also would like to see enriching items in for the rats.
Some breeders may use racks as full time cages for their rats. Infact alot of breeders I know do so. That will have to be a choice you make on your own if it is ok or not.... I understand why they do so, I personally prefer cages myself. I have seen really nice systems and some scary/sad ones.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You make some very good points moon-kissed, and I agree with almost all of your views. Bin cages can make great maternity cages but should not just be used for easy storage and babies should be moved into cages when able.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I wish breeders would focus more on health and personality before looks, but not really practical I guess. Breeders pick the babies they will keep within a week of them being born, breeding for personality and health would require them to keep the babies for at least 3-4 months (personality) and 1+ year for health selection. Since breeding rats after 1 year old is not good, breeding for health takes much more time and can really happen if the adopters report any illness/sickness...I was wondering how do breeders best select for personality and health? Of course they can breed their sweetest rats together or wait for their rats to be 10 months-1 year to breed the healthiest, but is there any other way to tell?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I believe a good breeder will also make their adopters sign a contract that says they will take their rats back if needed. A good breeder will take their rats back so none of their rats ever end up in a shelter.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I have also seen breeders that required adopters to sign a contract to never breed the rats received from them unless said rat has been approved for a breeding program. I don't know if there's a way they could enforce that without fixing the animals but it shows they are at least aware of the issues with overpopulation and BYB's and care about them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes that too InuLing. My breeder has that too in their contract, along with questions and requires picture of the cage to make sure it is appropriate. I don't think it could be enforced, and they would have to know which wouldn't be most likely the case anyway


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> I wish breeders would focus more on health and personality before looks, but not really practical I guess. Breeders pick the babies they will keep within a week of them being born, breeding for personality and health would require them to keep the babies for at least 3-4 months (personality) and 1+ year for health selection. Since breeding rats after 1 year old is not good, breeding for health takes much more time and can really happen if the adopters report any illness/sickness...I was wondering how do breeders best select for personality and health? Of course they can breed their sweetest rats together or wait for their rats to be 10 months-1 year to breed the healthiest, but is there any other way to tell?


That is not really true for responsible breeders. 

A rat is not just what you see, I can take the sweetest rat ever and put it with another sweet rat but the line they come from could be awful temperament wise and that could pass to the babies. The same goes with health. A rat may appear healthy but who knows what they are carrying? That is why it is always said not to breed rats you do not know the history of. Genetics play a huge role and having the history of that line is really important. Ofcourse starting new lines does mean work/time has to be done to see if all is good.

For health, you should know what it in your lines. If you are on the lets say 5th gen & all of your rats have been healthy and not had any issues then you know the line is healthy. Keeping perfect health records on your rats is key. Ending lines where something creeps up, etc... Many breeders won't even sell rats from their new lines until they are far enough in to know.

I do not want to dismiss breeding for health as something so simple, but there are alot of different health related issues out there & different things can be done to help lower the risk.
So for example several new varieties of rats have some serious health issues where their teeth are messed up- white, overgrown, crooked. Breeders are working to breed that out. 
Something like URIs, I strongly believe that having well bred rats really helps lower the risk. You have a baby that comes from a healthy mom, they get alot of nutrition & come from a healthy environment. They are going to be stronger and more capable of fighting off that kind of stuff. Also if they are not little anxiety prone nervous rats they are likely going to have far less stress. 
I think it is key that breeders do not say they are 100% health perfection. You can't bubble wrap them but you can lower the risk. A line where every rat is getting tumors vs a line that has not had a single one is going to make a huge difference.
Environment & nutrition plays a very heavy role in alot of illness as well.

This is a great article on breeding for health
http://ratguide.com/breeding/breeding/choosing_health.php

As for temperament... I do not think many breeders choose their babies so early. 
There are definite ways you can test babies to know their temperament even at younger ages. I usually pick my babies at 3-4 weeks. I know some who wait until longer. I usually keep lots of my babies. But alot can happen before the age where they are bred which is 5-6 months. 
Again alot of it has to do with knowing your lines, so that helps. But most breeders will wait to breed their males at an older age to catch that hormonal aggression. If they develop it they are culled. If any rat ever bites it is not bred, line ended. 


In the breeding world there is some debate on I guess nature vs nurture. 
Some feel it is all genetics. I was actually quite surprised but it is very common for breeders to advise others not to handle the babies at all so you can get a better idea on their temperament without adding any outside influence. So besides sexing/checking them over they won't handle them at all. 
Others, like myself feel it is a bit of both. I think by far genetics play the biggest role. But that handling babies is important too. There is this very interesting study on how babies who are raised by more relaxed moms get bathed more & that releases more of a chemical that plays a huge role in their temperament making them in turn less anxious. There are definite windows of time for this to happen in as well. So for me if being bathed by mom helps = being touched by me would help as well. Again that is just my opinion. 
From my point of view getting to properly know each baby by observing & handling them daily gives me the same amount of info on who they really are. So i can easily say hey this one is anxious, this one is sweet, etc... 
I do not think handling your babies will make them great though if the genetics are not backing them up.

I think in the end the most important thing for any breeder is to be honest with themselves and being able to choose who continues on and being able to cull those who are not. That is probably a huge difference between good breeder vs a bad one, is the ability to cut a rat from their line if needed. There should be zero room for any tolerance when it comes to health or temperament. 

This blog has some good thoughts on breeding for temperament if you wanna read more:
http://rat-breeder-confessions.blogspot.com/2015/05/breeding-for-temperament.html
http://rat-breeder-confessions.blogspot.com/2015/03/breeding-for-temperament.html


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Thanks for all the info. By culling do you mean killing them or just letting them live their life without breeding them?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> I believe a good breeder will also make their adopters sign a contract that says they will take their rats back if needed. A good breeder will take their rats back so none of their rats ever end up in a shelter.


Personally I do not think a contract makes a breeder good or bad. It is just a personal choice. But I do think the breeder should have interest in what happens to their rats in the future.

Contracts are very difficult to enforce. It has to be worded just ever so perfectly and even still may not be completely enforceable. At most you may be able to get the rat back. But a long battle in court + fees + lawyer fees... it is really doubtful anyone is going to do that.

I do not use contracts myself. I know some breeders who do, some who do not. It is just personal choice.

Weeding out those who are iffy to begin with just makes more sense. Try to get to know your adopters, make them fill out some info, etc... I tell them I will always take the babies back at any time. And I say that I do require them back if for any reason they need to rehome them. I also sell as pets only so I tell people they can not breed them.

Sadly people can lie... trying to judge & get a good feel for people can only do so much. Even with the contract you may never know. Selling babies always has some risk


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> Thanks for all the info. By culling do you mean killing them or just letting them live their life without breeding them?


sorry. culling in itself means to remove from your line. So it could just mean retiring, rehoming or in some cases yes euthanizing them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Are the runt (s) of a litter mostly always the ones who will have the most health issues and/or die the earliest? If no other health info is available (besides the parents health of course, but they all have the same parents anyway), is picking the strongest babies of a litter the best strategy?


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

Good general red flags list. I use bin cages for maternity/ quarantine as well and think they are loads easier to clean.. Make it very easy to clean out daily if needed. 

I would add diet to the list... Although there are many opinions on what makes a balanced diet, I'd be leary of someone using dog food as the primary ingredient of their diet. I know some use it in a combo with others for the shumanite diet, but in those, it is not a major component. I know of some feeder breeders that use very cheap dog food as the primary component of their diets. 

I think honesty is number one for me (right below conditions of the animals and health).. I want the breeder to be 100% honest. If they say they use all cages, or only breed females once, or cull via euthanasia, etc.. i want to know the truth. Whether I agree with it or not, I would rather work with someone that is honest vs. someone that claims to have certain standards and doesn't. 

I'd also add that knowing background on the animal you are buying is important too. I bought my foundation stock from a breeder and she didn't always post parent info... but would give it if asked. I didn't ask in one case and one of the pups I purchased from her (unrelated from the others I got) was apparently from a first- time out cross litter. Although the breeder got the outcrossing line from someone who used her lines to originate it, it was hiding some not-so-nice things. That pup developed symptoms of MC after it was in my possession and I had to euthanize it. If I had known it was a first-time outcorssing, I would have been more leary of purchasing that particular pup. I guess the phrase "buyer beware" applies. If the breeder doesn't openly offer background information, you should be cautious.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> Are the runt (s) of a litter mostly always the ones who will have the most health issues and/or die the earliest? If no other health info is available (besides the parents health of course, but they all have the same parents anyway), is picking the strongest babies of a litter the best strategy?


sorry I missed this question 

I wouldn't breed a runt. They are going to be weaker then the others and probably had less access to milk. 
There are different levels to runts. Some babies are a smidge smaller, I think that is ok. The bigger ones are stronger, in the wild they would likely be the survivors. Some breeders may cull the rest and only leave them. The smaller ones usually catch right up in size.
Then there are babies you would consider runts, a noticeable size difference. IMO these would be more likely to be weak. Some of them may not make it. They may be healthy but it is likely they be as hardy. 
And then there are like really small runts. They have a failure to thrive. There is like no real chance for them to make it. If they did somehow they are likely to have health issues. But they almost always die and if not should be culled IMO. 

Picking the biggest fattest strongest pinkies is great! Like omg right now babies 3 days old this one little fatty is such a strong active little guy & made a break for it trying to run out of my hand! 

This is a horrid pic but just look at those fat rolls on that pinkie & the size. That is awesome.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

moonkissed said:


> sorry I missed this question I wouldn't breed a runt. They are going to be weaker then the others and probably had less access to milk. There are different levels to runts. Some babies are a smidge smaller, I think that is ok. The bigger ones are stronger, in the wild they would likely be the survivors. Some breeders may cull the rest and only leave them. The smaller ones usually catch right up in size.Then there are babies you would consider runts, a noticeable size difference. IMO these would be more likely to be weak. Some of them may not make it. They may be healthy but it is likely they be as hardy. And then there are like really small runts. They have a failure to thrive. There is like no real chance for them to make it. If they did somehow they are likely to have health issues. But they almost always die and if not should be culled IMO. Picking the biggest fattest strongest pinkies is great! Like omg right now babies 3 days old this one little fatty is such a strong active little guy & made a break for it trying to run out of my hand! This is a horrid pic but just look at those fat rolls on that pinkie & the size. That is awesome.


Thank you, that makes sense. That little chunky one is so adorable, and those fatty rolls are just too much cute Are you going to keep him so he can make strong babies too?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> Thank you, that makes sense. That little chunky one is so adorable, and those fatty rolls are just too much cute Are you going to keep him so he can make strong babies too?


This is a pretty old pic. I kept him as a pet but not as a breeder. His name is Sam. His brother was the same size and just had his first litter. His sister from the same litter is also on her second.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I also wanted to make a comment on scammers.

Not everyone is a good ethical person sadly. Some people out there will try to make their rats sound alot cooler or rarer then they are, making up names for the varieties or lying. 


Be careful. If it is a variety you have never heard of or they are calling it exclusive or rare... take a moment to do research, ask around. 
if it is a variety you are just not familiar with doing alittle research or asking around can help.

For example some people I have seen have been sold dwarfs when really they were just small rats, often runts and/or even sickly  
here is a good guide on seeing if it is a dwarf or not:
http://www.atlantisrattery.com/dwarf-rats.html

This is another example of a rattery site (I have blocked out the name of their site to not call them out here publicly but to show it as an example)








These "rare & exclusive" variety names are complete silly nonsense made up names. It is like a BYB calling their bred mutts a designer dog  Putting a fancy name on something doesn't make it special.
This person charges up to $150 for a name. Infact the varieties that are real names are not even what their rats are. 
It is a complete scam praying on unaware people 

Calling anything exclusive is likely a huge RED FLAG. I'd ask them for the genetics behind it, what separates it from other varieties? 
Even if they had lovely rats, it is pretty unethical and personally I would stay far far away.


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