# Help Me Decide



## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

Okay.
So you all know (or are about to know) about my rats, Claire and Noel. I got them a week ago yesterday.
Ever since I got them, it's just been very...stressful. My room smells awful (when I was told they didn't smell), they get into everything, I have to clean their cage all the time (when I was told it would only have to be cleaned once a week), and I'm pretty sure they both have URI. I'm definitely sure about Noel having it. I spent all my Christmas money on them, the cage, the accessories etc. so now I have absolutely no money to take them to the vet. My parents won't pay for it either.
I know this will probably sound like I'm such a jerk, but this is why I need help deciding. Should I take them back to the breeder (if they allow), return the cage and get all my money back? I just don't feel like I'm giving them the love they deserve. I'm just a kid and to take on this whole responsibility by myself...I didn't know it was going to be this hard. I know you're probably shaking your head at my right now but I really don't know what to do.
I love my little ratties but if I don't take them to the vet and get them the proper medicine, they're going to die. They're so sweet and loving but I just feel like I'm being a terrible owner. I'm honestly so sick of not knowing what to do.
Please help me. If there are any tips for cleaning their cage a little easier, please tell me. If there's a medicine I could buy for their URI without taking them to the vet, please tell me. And please give me reasons to keep my little girls, because I love them so much, but I just don't know if I can do this.
I'm so sorry, I feel so terrible. I'm literally crying at the computer right now. I just need help. Thank you so much.


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## leperdbunny (Jan 12, 2012)

First of all, *hugs*- I'm sorry you are going through this.  I'm no expert so I hope others will chime in but if I were you I would definitely contact the breeder. Breeders will almost always take them back because they want to make sure their babies are taken care of. If you don't get anywhere that way I'd suggest you contact the local spca or see if there are any rescue groups in your area that would be willing to take them- especially considering that they will give them the medical care they need. Also, if you don't mind me askin- how old are you? The reason I ask is maybe you could call around and ask if there are any vets willing to set up a payment plan with you and you can go get a job after school? (They might be willing to see the rats up front for no charge). I don't have my new rats yet but I suspect they would give you a medicine (antibiotic) in liquid form to give to the rats via mouth- but they will want an office visit for a definitive diagnosis. ( I had rats before and when they had minor problems warranting antibiotics it was always in liquid form via mouth). Also, I would definitely look into insurance for vet costs (I need to do this myself).


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

leperdbunny said:


> First of all, *hugs*- I'm sorry you are going through this.  I'm no expert so I hope others will chime in but if I were you I would definitely contact the breeder. Breeders will almost always take them back because they want to make sure their babies are taken care of. If you don't get anywhere that way I'd suggest you contact the local spca or see if there are any rescue groups in your area that would be willing to take them- especially considering that they will give them the medical care they need. Also, if you don't mind me askin- how old are you? The reason I ask is maybe you could call around and ask if there are any vets willing to set up a payment plan with you and you can go get a job after school? (They might be willing to see the rats up front for no charge). I don't have my new rats yet but I suspect they would give you a medicine (antibiotic) in liquid form to give to the rats via mouth- but they will want an office visit for a definitive diagnosis. ( I had rats before and when they had minor problems warranting antibiotics it was always in liquid form via mouth). Also, I would definitely look into insurance for vet costs (I need to do this myself).


Thanks for the hugs. I'm still trying to decide if I should bring them back to the breeder. But that's a really good idea about the vet. I'd love to work there after school to get free visits. I will definitely have my mom look into it. I've been enlightened a little bit because I went up to my room after I wrote this to see the girls and Noel finally spun when I just gave the command  I gave her praise and a treat. I was so happy! I think I'll probably end up keeping them, as long as I can get them the vet attention they need. Thanks so much for your great ideas!


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## CarolineRose (Nov 18, 2011)

If you have only had them a week, the breeder should definitely be contacted as they most likely had contracted the URI while in his/her possession. I'd ask them to pay for the vet or at least give you the medication (most breeders will have some prepared at all times in case one of their rats becomes ill.) 
In the case the breeder refuses and you have no other way to pay for the vet care, than giving them up to a shelter or rescue (like an ASPCA) would be in the rats best interest. As leperdbunny mentioned many vets will work with you on payments, every vet is an animal lover and never wants to turn a sick patient away.

As for the smell, what bedding are you using? I started out using CareFresh and it smelled within hours of cleaning the cage. This goes for many wood pulp or shaving type bedding (with exceptions of course). I now use fleece but before they were litter trained I tried Yesterday's News Cat Litter (I now use this in the litter box) and the difference was like night and day, I cleaned the cage once a week and there was practically no smell at all.
I see that you're cage has plastic levels. From what I understand, the little divots on the sides are notorious for trapping odors. I'd definitely suggest either litter training your rats (very easy to do) or covering the levels with fleece.


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

CarolineRose said:


> If you have only had them a week, the breeder should definitely be contacted as they most likely had contracted the URI while in his/her possession. I'd ask them to pay for the vet or at least give you the medication (most breeders will have some prepared at all times in case one of their rats becomes ill.)
> In the case the breeder refuses and you have no other way to pay for the vet care, than giving them up to a shelter or rescue (like an ASPCA) would be in the rats best interest. As leperdbunny mentioned many vets will work with you on payments, every vet is an animal lover and never wants to turn a sick patient away.
> 
> As for the smell, what bedding are you using? I started out using CareFresh and it smelled within hours of cleaning the cage. This goes for many wood pulp or shaving type bedding (with exceptions of course). I now use fleece but before they were litter trained I tried Yesterday's News Cat Litter (I now use this in the litter box) and the difference was like night and day, I cleaned the cage once a week and there was practically no smell at all.
> I see that you're cage has plastic levels. From what I understand, the little divots on the sides are notorious for trapping odors. I'd definitely suggest either litter training your rats (very easy to do) or covering the levels with fleece.


I have tried and tried and tried to litter train them. I have a little container (that I know they can fit in--they play in it) with a few rocks in it to weigh it down. I put shredded paper in there but I've been reading on here about the Yesterday's News and since you said it made such a huge difference, I might try it. How expensive is it?
That is a very good idea about contacting the breeder for medicine. I will definitely call them to ask. Like I just said to leperdbunny, I've reconsidered giving them up and probably won't, at least for a while. Especially since you guys are giving me such good ideas about the vet and medicine.
Thanks so much


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## CarolineRose (Nov 18, 2011)

christinelovesyou said:


> I have tried and tried and tried to litter train them. I have a little container (that I know they can fit in--they play in it) with a few rocks in it to weigh it down. I put shredded paper in there but I've been reading on here about the Yesterday's News and since you said it made such a huge difference, I might try it. How expensive is it?
> Thanks so much


I buy a 30lb bag for about $12, so its not bad considering you will not have to clean the cage as often. Oh and make sure the buy the original, unscented one  Good luck!
_*This link*_ has a list of the different places that sell YN.


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## Karagraaf (Oct 14, 2011)

ok we just talked about how we have the same cage, right? I have been having the worst issues with smell and have tried a lot of differnt beddings and such (going back to fleece now though). I found it was my actual cage that stunk and it needed a full wash, like the wires and the shelves.. i was wiping them down, with a cleanig solution or water but that wasn't cutting it. just last week i put the whole cage in the tub and washed it off with the shower sprayer with soap, it got all the hidden caked on pee that i was missing all along, causing it to stink. that really made a difference. my husband was complaning (and I thought it was gross too) that as soon as we walked in the house, we could smell the cage. we don't anymore. I also found that the cleaner i was using for spot cleaning seemed to make it stink more in the long run. last time i used baby soap that I use for my kid's bath.. and i used dawn dish soap once too. soap instead of a cleaner made a difference to me as well. i would still stick with litter training if you have been doing it for only a week. mine aren't great at it but they still do get a lot of poop in the litter box. how about an absorbent bedding and then a littler box as well instead of fleece. I had one pet rat 10 years ago when i was 18.. i didn't really know anything about them at the time and i used pine bedding, no litter training and never had a stink problem. now I know pine is a big no-no, but maybe try something like aspen (freeze it for 48 hours first!) or something else beside fleece. 

I have no suggestions as far as the health problems.. i would just call a vet and see how much a visit would be, maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? it doesn't hurt to call around and price shop. I'm not so sure you will be able to return a cage that has been used. what makes you think they are sick, what are the signs?


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## Karagraaf (Oct 14, 2011)

I've used yesterday's news as well- it's good! you said you only had them for a week, right? you need to give it more time then that to litter train! you can try and try and try but a week is still just a week. even if they are like my rats and don't get it completly, i'm sure it will improve but it takes some time. if you only had them for a week, they are probably just getting comfortable there.


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

Karagraaf said:


> ok we just talked about how we have the same cage, right? I have been having the worst issues with smell and have tried a lot of differnt beddings and such (going back to fleece now though). I found it was my actual cage that stunk and it needed a full wash, like the wires and the shelves.. i was wiping them down, with a cleanig solution or water but that wasn't cutting it. just last week i put the whole cage in the tub and washed it off with the shower sprayer with soap, it got all the hidden caked on pee that i was missing all along, causing it to stink. that really made a difference. my husband was complaning (and I thought it was gross too) that as soon as we walked in the house, we could smell the cage. we don't anymore. I also found that the cleaner i was using for spot cleaning seemed to make it stink more in the long run. last time i used baby soap that I use for my kid's bath.. and i used dawn dish soap once too. soap instead of a cleaner made a difference to me as well. i would still stick with litter training if you have been doing it for only a week. mine aren't great at it but they still do get a lot of poop in the litter box. how about an absorbent bedding and then a littler box as well instead of fleece. I had one pet rat 10 years ago when i was 18.. i didn't really know anything about them at the time and i used pine bedding, no litter training and never had a stink problem. now I know pine is a big no-no, but maybe try something like aspen (freeze it for 48 hours first!) or something else beside fleece.
> 
> I have no suggestions as far as the health problems.. i would just call a vet and see how much a visit would be, maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? it doesn't hurt to call around and price shop. I'm not so sure you will be able to return a cage that has been used. what makes you think they are sick, what are the signs?


That's a great idea of how to clean the cage. Over the weekend I took out each individual shelf, ramp and the bottom and scrubbed them all. It took almost 2 hours to get the whole thing clean! I'm just a little concerned about which bathtub I would be able to clean it in. I was also using dish soap when scrubbing. This was just yesterday, and it already stinks again.
The reason I wanted to stay away from a brand-name bedding was the cost. At first I used shredded newspaper but I thought they were allergic to it, so that's why I changed to fleece. Also, they poop and pee a lot on the shelves, where I obviously can't put bedding. But I am thinking about putting the YN in their litter box and praying they start to use it.
Noel has been sneezing ever since I got her, her nose is wet, and she wheezes at night. She also kinda squeaks when she's walking around. Claire's nose is also wet, and she sneezes every now and then. I was just thinking if I would bring them to the vet, I'd bring both of them.


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

CarolineRose said:


> I buy a 30lb bag for about $12, so its not bad considering you will not have to clean the cage as often. Oh and make sure the buy the original, unscented one  Good luck!
> _*This link*_ has a list of the different places that sell YN.


Thanks for the link! And that's not a bad price at all, especially if I'm just going to use it in the litter box. Do you think I should invest in a litter box that they sell at the pet store or keep using my container?


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## CarolineRose (Nov 18, 2011)

christinelovesyou said:


> Thanks for the link! And that's not a bad price at all, especially if I'm just going to use it in the litter box. Do you think I should invest in a litter box that they sell at the pet store or keep using my container?


What is your current container like? If its walls are under 2 or 3 inches (some rats feel trapped with the higher walled boxes), but tall enough for the girls to back up into to go potty then I'd say keep it. If you're still having problems in a couple weeks, I'd buy one the corner litter boxes to see if they like them better.

Its all about your rats' personal preferences, but unfortunately since they cannot communicate with us (I'm still holding out hold for a cross-species translator) we have to use the guess and check method.

Don't give up hope with the litter training, I thought it would be almost overnight based on what I'd read but it took my girls about 4 weeks to be fully trained. I clean the box every 2 or 3 days and I wash the shelf covers once a week (mostly because of food crumbs) My girls have a cleaner home and I get to be lazy without feeling guilty, so WORTH IT!


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

CarolineRose said:


> What is your current container like? If its walls are under 2 or 3 inches (some rats feel trapped with the higher walled boxes), but tall enough for the girls to back up into to go potty then I'd say keep it. If you're still having problems in a couple weeks, I'd buy one the corner litter boxes to see if they like them better.
> 
> Its all about your rats' personal preferences, but unfortunately since they cannot communicate with us (I'm still holding out hold for a cross-species translator) we have to use the guess and check method.
> 
> Don't give up hope with the litter training, I thought it would be almost overnight based on what I'd read but it took my girls about 4 weeks to be fully trained. I clean the box every 2 or 3 days and I wash the shelf covers once a week (mostly because of food crumbs) My girls have a cleaner home and I get to be lazy without feeling guilty, so WORTH IT!


How did you train yours? I'm afraid since I'm using fleece as the bedding, I can't just pick some up when they pee and put it in the litter box. I do put the poop in it but I don't think they care.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Just want to chime in and say, that's very bad luck to have sick rats off the bat, they can cost an arm and a leg in vet fees and as rat keepers, we should all be prepared for that, but they aren't meant to, and plenty of rats go through most of their lives not needing to see a vet.

Glad they've wormed their way into your heart and you're gonna try and keep them, I'd definitely be approaching the breeder about covering costs.


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## CarolineRose (Nov 18, 2011)

If you're around when they pee and you see it when its wet, soak up the pee with a small piece of paper towel or something to that nature and put it in the litter box underneath the bedding.This way they can ominously smell the urine without taking the paper towel out of the box. Or if they will not leave the paper towel alone you can wipe the urine soaked towel around on the sides of the box, gross I know but they have to at least smell it. 

Spot clean the fleece as needed and wash it every other day for now to keep the urine odors to a minimum. 
Also let the box get pretty stinky, so they will get the idea that the poop and pee goes in the box.


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

CarolineRose said:


> If you're around when they pee and you see it when its wet, soak up the pee with a small piece of paper towel or something to that nature and put it in the litter box underneath the bedding.This way they can ominously smell the urine without taking the paper towel out of the box. Or if they will not leave the paper towel alone you can wipe the urine soaked towel around on the sides of the box, gross I know but they have to at least smell it.
> 
> Spot clean the fleece as needed and wash it every other day for now to keep the urine odors to a minimum.
> Also let the box get pretty stinky, so they will get the idea that the poop and pee goes in the box.


My parents are not too keen on washing the fleece, so I'm not too sure they'd let me do it every other day. I'll just spot clean, light you said. They don't seem to pee on it, so that's good.

I like the paper towel idea. There's some pee up on a shelf at the moment that I've been avoiding. I'll try that.


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

1a1a said:


> Just want to chime in and say, that's very bad luck to have sick rats off the bat, they can cost an arm and a leg in vet fees and as rat keepers, we should all be prepared for that, but they aren't meant to, and plenty of rats go through most of their lives not needing to see a vet.
> 
> Glad they've wormed their way into your heart and you're gonna try and keep them, I'd definitely be approaching the breeder about covering costs.


I emailed the breeder when I first noticed the sneezing, but still no reply. I'll call tomorrow now that I've realized that the breeder could help with or pay the medicine cost!


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## Karagraaf (Oct 14, 2011)

thats a great idea about the pee- i'll have to try that, mine never pee in the litter pan!

mine sneezed a lot when I first got them- for a week or 2. each one did that for a little bit. I chalked it up to being nervous and the change they were going through. I hope you can get a hold of the breeder! how about hand washing the fleece? i'm not sure how easy that would be though. I cloth diaper my kids, so that stuff doesn't phase me but i know when i was a kid, my mom would not really be thrilled with washing fleece bedding, although now as a mom and adult i don't really understand why, it's meant to have dirty stuff in it to get clean! but I my mom would have been the same as yours.


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## RatMama13 (Aug 20, 2011)

If you can, use a laundry mat if necessary. I have to do all my laundry at one and so i just take my fleece there. I also am working on litter training. My girls are pretty good bout it, but my room mate's arent and they are in the same cage. It took my girls almost a month to get it though. and my boys..welll....we just won't go there lol. It is definitely worth it to stick with it because I have plastic levels too and the cage is big so it's not the easiest to clean and if they weren't litter trained it would be a nightmare! I understand about vet bills and I would definitely call around and get pricing and also do a search on them and sometimes you can find reviews about the clinic. I think maybe yellowpages.com has that feature. That way you have some kind of feed back before you commit to one. I would definitely keep trying to get ahold of the breeder. You're on the right track just stick with it.


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## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

Just a thought about the washing: you can use a small quanitity of bleach even with colored fabrics, which may reconcile your parents to letting you use the laundry machines. Another thought: my mother and a woman friend of mine are both nurses, and they both let me use their machines to wash cage liners. And you know how fussy nurses are about contagion! But your parents may not realize that there is almost nothing people can catch from rats--and once they know that, it may help get them over the gross factor. (You might mention that they wouldn't hesitate to put baby diapers in the washer, and they're a lot grosser!)

Also, put some vinegar in the final rinse, and it will help eliminate any remaining urine odor.

Oh, and try to use unscented laundry products and don't use fabric softener--easier on ratty lungs, that way.


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## giggles_mcbug (Sep 10, 2011)

Chiming in about litterboxes. I use a plastic paint pan for my girls. 

I waited a long time before I litter trained them( more out of laziness at the time. What the **** was i thinking.) Anyway. A paint pan is the only thing I've ever managed to make my girls go in. I'm not sure why, but it's made cage cleaning 100000x easier.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I have that cage and it got smelly fast with the shelves in there. I recently yanked them and put in low hanging hammocks, since I have a senior in the cage right now. The smell has been reduced, and I'm also trying to litter train them. Not working. But, oh well, I have boys and some of the poop ends up there, eh?

I wish you luck with the vet bills, and I do suggest calling some vets for price quotes. Ask your parents if you could do some housework for money.


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## Karagraaf (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh and I just took out one of my shelves and put a hammock in place of one shelf. I added some fleece scraps on top inside it( they pee in there so this way i can just take out and replace the scraps insead of washing the hammock as often)just to cut down on the shelf messes.. And I added a tiny corner litter box to a shelf. It took about a week but it seems like they are now pooping in that! This new cage arrangement seems to be working so well! My husband mentioned not ever getting rats again because of the smell but now there is no smell (or very little) and we are all happy.. and I can keep having rats


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

Karagraaf said:


> thats a great idea about the pee- i'll have to try that, mine never pee in the litter pan!
> 
> mine sneezed a lot when I first got them- for a week or 2. each one did that for a little bit. I chalked it up to being nervous and the change they were going through. I hope you can get a hold of the breeder! how about hand washing the fleece? i'm not sure how easy that would be though. I cloth diaper my kids, so that stuff doesn't phase me but i know when i was a kid, my mom would not really be thrilled with washing fleece bedding, although now as a mom and adult i don't really understand why, it's meant to have dirty stuff in it to get clean! but I my mom would have been the same as yours.


Did they eventually stop sneezing on their own?


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

Kinsey said:


> I have that cage and it got smelly fast with the shelves in there. I recently yanked them and put in low hanging hammocks, since I have a senior in the cage right now. The smell has been reduced, and I'm also trying to litter train them. Not working. But, oh well, I have boys and some of the poop ends up there, eh?
> 
> I wish you luck with the vet bills, and I do suggest calling some vets for price quotes. Ask your parents if you could do some housework for money.


Thank you! That's smart, replacing the shelves with hammocks. I was planning on makings some hammocks but didn't know where to put them! Good idea


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## Karagraaf (Oct 14, 2011)

christinelovesyou said:


> Did they eventually stop sneezing on their own?


 Yes, they did after some time. From what I heard it's not too uncommon. Of course I'm no vet, and if you really feel something is wrong, call a vet but maybe wait it out and just keep an eye on them if the only symptom is some sneezing. here's a website about rats sneezing :http://www.theratsplace.com/why-do-rats-sneeze/


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## christinelovesyou (Jan 7, 2012)

Karagraaf said:


> Yes, they did after some time. From what I heard it's not too uncommon. Of course I'm no vet, and if you really feel something is wrong, call a vet but maybe wait it out and just keep an eye on them if the only symptom is some sneezing. here's a website about rats sneezing :http://www.theratsplace.com/why-do-rats-sneeze/


Thank you! From what I read there, it said rats with URI could die in 24 hours and usually hide their symtoms. Noel isn't hiding hers at all, and she's been having them for over a week. Maybe it is just a cold.


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