# Introduction troubles.



## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm a new rat mom who has been trying to introduce Coby, a ~2 year old male I rescued in early August, to Snoop, who I adopted from my local humane society exactly two weeks ago as of tomorrow to be his companion. Snoop was a 1 year, 7 months old male who lived with other rats previously according to his cage card.

I wasn't expecting this to go over perfectly considering they're both adult males, but... :/ Coby is very adaptable and easygoing, but Snoop has been acting so overly-dominant that eventually he'll antagonize my smaller rat into reacting. I've put them together in neutral territory six times over the past week, never for more than half an hour at a time (only a few minutes during the first several sessions), but things just seem to be getting worse.

I put vanilla essence on both and swapped dirty bedding/have had their cages close together for a week and a half now but Snoop just won't lay off Coby, and he makes this low grunting noise constantly when they're together. At first Snoop was really intense, sniffing Coby too enthusiastically, chasing him around trying to mount him, peeing on him, climbing over him, and pinning his head down to power-groom it, but I let him have free reign since neither of them was showing aggressive body language I'd read about like puffed-out fur. Whenever Snoop would get too pushy I'd scatter treats to distract them or pick one up and place him on the other side of the room. Eventually he toned it down, but several days ago Coby fought back when he was being bossed around and they scuffled briefly.

No blood was drawn, and it only lasted a second or two since I separated them right away, but ever since then they've both been on edge. I gave them a day of break before putting them together again, but now they walk around the bathroom with almost constantly half-puffed fur, and Coby freezes up when Snoop gets too close and occasionally tries to hide in the crook of my arm or under my leg. Snoop will arch his back and side-walk into Coby, but Coby usually doesn't react (he did once briefly earlier today with a long squeak, but I snatched Snoop up before they could fight again and he huffed angrily in my gloved hand) so he'll walk away. They'll eat treats close together, though, and share my lap for a while unless Snoop decides to push Coby off, and there are times where Snoop will wiggle underneath Coby and just sit there for a while. Snoop will also brux when he's in the room with Coby, and not the bad bruxing--it's the same sound he makes when he's running around playing with just me.

Is this normal? Will these issues go away in time if I keep putting them together? Did I move too fast with them? I just wanted to make Coby happy by getting him a friend, but now it seems like I've done the opposite by adopting a larger rat who bullies and seems to frighten him all the time. Snoop's so sweet and seems so happy here but I don't know if I have the time to give proper attention and out-of-cage time to two lone rats separately, since I have other animals to take care of as well...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

adult males being on living terms within a week is pretty rare... it usually takes me 2-4... sometimes longer. everything you're describing is fairly normal dominant male behavior... eventually they have a breakthrough moment when they finally realize their positions on the dominance ladder you'll find them snuggled up in a corner somewhere later on. keep it up, split them up and try it again later if it gets nasty. putting them in the bathtub with a bit of water also tends to make them forget about fighting for long enough to get along.


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## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks, Jaguar.  Your reply made me feel much less discouraged! I've never done this before, so I've kind of been approaching it with this mentality of "ahhhh if I do it wrong they will HATE EACH OTHER FOREVER and/or EVISCERATE ONE ANOTHER" since I've been reading all these internet horror stories about introductions gone wrong. It's hard for me to distinguish genuinely aggressive behaviors from simply dominant ones since this is the first extended contact I've had with rats, too.

I might give the water-in-the-bathroom trick a shot eventually; I've been avoiding specifically using either of my tubs since two of my three bathrooms are areas where I frequently socialize the boys separately, so it isn't really "neutral territory" anymore. I'll keep trying and hoping for the best.


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## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

So after weeks of patience, baby steps, trying a handful of varied introduction methods, and being told by multiple sources that my rats are doing fine and will surely start getting along eventually if I just keep on as I have been, Coby bites into Snoop's back and opens up a deep wound. Blood everywhere, feces everywhere from poor Snoop who is now a total nervous wreck. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the advice I have been receiving throughout this process has been worthless to my situation and am just going to keep them permanently separated from this point on. Now I have two lone rats, neither of which are of feasibly adoptable ages, neither of which I am going to have adequate time to socialize now that I'll be splitting my free time three ways between them and my cat, and one of which I now resent due to how he has been behaving throughout the past few weeks. This process has also pretty much convinced me that I made a mistake in wanting to own rats at all and probably will not adopt further once these two pass away.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow, that was really dramatic.

The people who post on here have had YEARS AND YEARS of experience with a MULTITUDE of rats. EVERY strange rat I have ever introduced has been immediately chased and picked on, and so I too would have said "no blood, no foul" to your situation. It does NOT mean that you made a mistake in ever having rats. It just means you have bad luck and that is NOT the fault of the members of this forum. Also, who says that they are of unadoptable age? I would adopt a 3 year old rat if it truly needed me and I had the space. Not to mention, as for your free time, I have a mouse, two fish tanks, a dog and two rats, college, and work, and still find MORE than enough time to give ALL my pets the attention they need. What on earth are you doing that you can't give your three pets enough attention, really? At the very least you need to calm down and avoid blaming the members of this forum, they have given me nothing but good advice over the years.

I'm sorry about your rats, but the advice from the members of this forum was well-intentioned and it isn't anyone's fault that your rat got injured. I hope he's alright.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Thank you KayRatz.

Please don't condemn these rats to living a life of solitude.

First, it would be helpful to know what you have done, the rats postures, actions, etc, especially right before the bite.

Second, it may be that Coby requires a neuter.


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## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

Disappointed =/= dramatic. I am calm; I just feel like this was a wasted effort from the beginning and don't believe owning rats is worth the daily, fruitless, nerve-wracking frustration and disappointment I've been experiencing for over a month now. One rat would be fine, but I've been told over and over that owning a single rat is not fair or healthy for them even in the best of circumstances. I was not specifically blaming the members of this forum since as I alluded to, I've been speaking to multiple people about my situation and have been reading many, many articles about rat introductions, all of which have proved themselves to be useless to my situation. Emphasis on "to my situation"--I was annoyed about my circumstances rather than the advice itself, so your condescension and lecturing was not a very helpful response to what was obviously a disappointed and frustrated post. :/

I'm assuming they're somewhat unadoptable because Snoop sat at the shelter for ages before he was adopted, then was re-surrendered two days later and sat for even longer before I picked him up. As someone who used to volunteer at a shelter herself, there are not many people willing to take on an animal that could very well die or develop a serious health problem within a few months of being adopted--two-year-old rats aren't exactly spring chickens.

I am a veterinary technician who routinely works 10-13 hour shifts. Between sleeping, working, and actually having a life outside of animals, that doesn't leave much time for me to socialize three pets individually (my cat is very attached to me, but afraid of the rats), since I've been told it's unfair to give rats less than 1-2 hours of daily out-of-cage interaction. If I could socialize them together it would be okay, but obviously I can't have them wandering around the same room together if Coby is getting into the habit of terrorizing Snoop the way he did today.

@Smesyna:
I don't want them to live alone, but I don't know what else I can do at this point aside from neutering, which does not seem safe or financially practical on ~2 year old rats (especially Coby seeing as he's supposedly several months older). I am also unsure as to whether I'd have to neuter both of them since they've both been having periodic aggression issues.

What I have been doing:
-kept the cages pushed together, but far enough apart that they couldn't reach each other (I did this several days after Snoop came because I considered the time he spent at the shelter with no other rats a quarantine)
-swapped dirty bedding
-briefly cage-swapped, but only once because Snoop seemed extremely uncomfortable and just spent most of the time staring longingly back towards his own cage
-put them together in a neutral space (small bathroom) many times
-put them together in a [waterless] bathtub, which proved ineffective because Coby spent the entire time frantically trying to climb out. He is a very good jumper and would just slam into the palm of my hand over and over if I tried to block him.
-put them together in a neutral cat carrier and took them for a drive, which is what I was doing today when Snoop got attacked. I had done the exact same thing a few days prior and it worked fine except for puffed fur.

I always dab vanilla extract onto their foreheads, back, and genitals when introducing them. I also started out with very brief introduction sessions and gradually lengthened them as time went on.

I didn't see the posturing today since I was looking at the road, but typically Coby will be very puffed up and occasionally arch his back while Snoop totally freezes and just stares at him. They are both in nearly-constant states of fur puffage (Snoop somewhat less so) when I put them together and now both do the grunting thing. They had a brief, bloodless tussle a while ago wherein it seemed like Coby came out as the dominant rat, since he was suddenly very bold around Snoop whereas Snoop was suddenly the one freezing, hiding, and climbing onto my shoulder to avoid the other. This past week and a half was basically a behavioral standstill where they would only really interact when puffed-up Coby would tentatively paw up to Snoop, sniff at him, and then quickly back away and run off to groom himself. They will put their faces very close together and freeze. Snoop would just sit in the corner of the bathroom and not move, and would no longer take treats when Coby was around, or would just take them to go hide them without actually eating. All their interactions are extremely tense except when I put them in the bathtub and Coby suddenly didn't care that Snoop was acting dominant again. The one time Snoop moved forward to sniff at Coby in return, Coby immediately attacked him and may have drawn blood (I noticed an older scab on Snoop for the first time today when I was cleaning his bites). They weren't making any progress that way and were just totally avoiding each other aside from rare tense, brief interactions so I decided to try something new, hence the carrier method. It worked okay the first day but today was obviously a disaster.


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## kyon147 (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi Paw

Its a shame to hear that your rats are not getting along, everything you are doing is right for introductions but just like people some rats will just not get a long no matter how hard you try to get them to, its rare for this to happen but it does happen.

Dont be discouraged by the time it takes to get them to understand each other, when it comes to two males fighting for dominance they can be stubborn and take a while to learn to back down. If you do feel like they just wont get along by not seeing any improvement over the next week or two then neutering them may lower there aggression for them to get along and not worry over territorial things so much. If after doing this they are still to aggressive with each other then they might just be two rats that cant be cage mates.

As with the time to spend with them, rats ideally yeah need 1 hour out there cage but sometimes life can be busy I dont always have my rats out every day for an hour but I always make sure I say a quick few minutes hello in the morning and handle them. Some love and attention is better than none at all so just give them what you can while you can then make it up to them when you do have some hours free =].

I've just introduce yesterday 2 new females and 1 of my older females last night, females can be easier but it did take a few weeks and I made them stay in each others cages for a week. Now they are al together in one big cage. There was some mounting, sniffing food stealing etc this is normal until a hierarchy is formed. Just keep at it =] Any questions let me know.

One last note all the people here on the forum are amazing and very helpful and would continue to help you as much as they can ^^


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Ooooh I can relate, to the frustration of trying to coax rats into being friends, and to the stress of having to divide time between two sets of rats. For a little while I was juggling one resident girl, 2 new girls and 2 boys as well and all 5 rats were making a habit of getting sick, and rat keeping did stop being fun until I read someone saying if you aren't having fun with your rats then you shouldn't have them and I thought about giving mine up which didn't appeal very much and so something clicked in my head and even though they were still eating my time and money, I started enjoying them again, anyway, I digress...

From my limited experience and your descriptions, I'd also go with the excess hormones theory and recommend a neuter, or, if they are a touch on the too old side, perhaps you could use suprelorin (can you guys get that overseas?) It's much less invasive than surgery although it only works for about half a year, then you have to go back and get more. If one rat is decidedly more aggressive/antagonistic, maybe you can get away with just treating that one.

Would you be able to get some footage of your boys interacting? That would make it super easier to determine if it is dominance scuffling or more malicious.


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## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

1a1a asked for footage, so here's some I just took tonight: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Kiata_/?action=view&current=ratfight.mp4

Coby is the smaller rat on the right towards the beginning, who poofs up immediately upon seeing Snoop after I lift him down from the toilet. This is the first time they've interacted since Snoop got hurt, and during that time period I've been doing some cage-swapping and keeping their cages pushed together as per usual. I separated them right away because I didn't want to deal with another bloody mess like before... and it's probably a good thing I did, since when I scooped Coby up he bit me hard enough to nearly draw blood through the gloves I was wearing. They were in the bathroom together for about five minutes without incident before I thought to go grab my camera and start filming.

...yes, those are pink kitty pajamas. *cough*

I spoke to a veterinarian at my work (a clinic that sees exotics/pocket pets as well as cats and dogs) and she advised against neutering for the same reasons I was hesitant to: cost effectiveness and risk to the lives of my rats. The large ferret cage I borrowed from my best friend can be detached, so at this point I'm just planning on splitting the cage in two and giving them each a separate half, pushed together so that they can see and interact with each other through the bars. At least they can get some social contact that way since I don't see how they can possibly be cagemates, but don't plan on getting any other rats right now and have no idea how to get ahold of the Suprelorin here.

Thanks for your responses and trying to help regardless. <3


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Wow, those are some angry rats .

I'm not sure what you mean by "cost effectiveness"? No medical care is ever cost effective, but it is done to improve the quality of life of the animals.

I can't imagine why your vet would say the risks outweigh the benefits either. Yes, any surgery has risks (even for humans) but neuters are very common surgeries. They're also very quick so the rat is not under anesthesia for very long. I have had countless surgeries (tumor removals, amputations, spays, etc) and have not lost a single one.

I'd just keep calling vets about the suprelorin, though if cost is an issue in the long term (suprelorin is temporary) neutering would likely be considerably cheaper.


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## Paw (Aug 15, 2011)

No kidding. 

I meant "cost effectiveness" in terms of spending money on non-essential surgeries for animals that could very well only live another several months. If it was a tumor or something that was causing them pain and unhappiness then obviously I would okay the surgery with no questions asked, but in this case it doesn't seem practical to me--I'm not in a financial position where I can throw money around with such little cause.

My vet was of the opinion that the risks outweighed the benefits because they don't seem to be experiencing any significant negative repercussions for being lone rats. Both are inquisitive and very friendly; both eat, drink, and are energetic in their cages as well as outside of them; both are healthy and active. Snoop is a little neurotic, but I have no idea what his previous home and experiences were like so for all I know it may not be simply because he's housed alone. I've transitioned into a steady on-off work schedule where I either work all day or don't work at all, and thus far they've been fine with me "making it up to them" with lots of attention on my days off like Kyon said. Their quality of life does not seem to be wanting, especially since they can still at least see and interact with each other through the cage bars.

I'll ask about the suprelorin next time I catch a vet at work. I'd honestly never even heard of it before it was brought up in this thread.


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