# Velveteen Rats?



## Kiko

What does that mean exactly, and how can you tell if a rat is Velveteen?

I checked our sticky, and saw an example. And one of my rats looks like that but I am not sure.


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## wheeljack

I have a velveteen 

There seems to be some conflict over if velveteen is a separate gene or just a poor example of a rex. My breeder (and I) believe it actually is a separate gene. A true rex should be ReRe and a velveteen will be cucu - http://www.boardmanweb.com/rattery/geneticbasics.htm. One thing that should in theory allow a visual differentiation is the whiskers. A good rex should have curled whiskers. A velveteen's whiskers will be curved and facing down. Velveteens are supposed to be wavy while a rex should actually be curled. What complicates matters is there are very few actual 'good' rexes with the correct curly hair so it makes them look like velveteens. 

You can kind of see his curved whiskers in this picture along with his wavy fur.









It's not a great picture, but you can see the little agouti on the left has curly whiskers--he is a rex (albeit a poor example of one)


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## wheeljack

Here's a better shot of the velveteen boy's whiskers


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## smesyna

Wheeljack, so are the whiskers a pretty sure sign? That looks so much like one of my fosters (past). She was from a breeder, even if it wasn't one I'd consider ethical (dumped in shelter when "getting out of the business").

http://mainelyratrescue.org/rattieblog2//?p=659
She was also crazy soft, softer than rexes I've had, even smooth coated rats.


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## wheeljack

Good Lord she's cute!!!

The whiskers are the only thing I could find that would lend itself to an easy visual identification without knowing her pedigree. It's possible she could be a really poor rex, but she looks velveteen to me.


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## smesyna

Thank you, yes, in my totally subjective opinion she was the prettiest foster I've had (cameras didn't capture the amazing color of her fur, it was very bright and attractive, I think cinnamon). Super cute pair, I miss them but they are being spoiled by themselves in a double FN with a doting "mom" and "dad" so I'm happy for them.

Well, a maybe is fine, since its not like it changes anything  Just curious because she looked different from the other rexes I've fostered and had. Her curled whiskers really stood out, especially since when she was really checking out a smell she would "fan" her whiskers in and out. Freaked me out a bit the first time I saw it.

It says on ratbehavior.org that there are seven known genes to cause curled fur so it doesn't seem out there at all that it is a different mutation.


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## Snippet

My rex girl (from a breeder) had curled whiskers that point down. She looks very like the velveteens posted on this thread, but I know she is really a rex.

I think that velveteens are just a poor example of rex. 

Here is a photo of my freaky rexy rat


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## wheeljack

Snippet's post illustrates some of the problem with Velveteens.
There is more than one gene that causes curly or wavy hair (unless multiple sites on rat genetics are incorrect).
ReRe should give you a rex coat with all the adorable curls they are supposed to have
cucu should give you a velveteen with it's wavy coat.

The problem is that it's very difficult to distinguish a rat that is ReRe but has a poor coat so it looks like a velveteen from a true velveteen with a cucu genotype just by looking. Phenotypically a bad rex and a velveteen they appear to be the same but genotypically they are not. This is where you need to have a breeder who keep detailed documentation. 

The whiskers were the only thing that I was able to find recommended on sites as a means of visual of visual determination and all those sites are based out of the US/Canada. Snippet is in the UK so things may be different over there.


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## sorraia

If velveteen is actually cu/cu, it is a recessive gene, and both parents would need to be velveteen or otherwise carry velveteen.

Of all the rats I've ever seen called "velveteen", not a single one of them has ever come from two non-velveteen parents (which should be possible with a recessive). One parent has always had to be "velveteen", in other words it acts like true rex (a dominant). 

I'm skeptical. While there are multiple known mutations (and scientifically described) for coat type, it doesn't mean all of those exist in the pet hobby. I personally haven't seen undeniable proof that so-called "velveteen" rats are actually genetically distinct from true rex rats (which are actually Re/re with double rex being Re/Re, however like rex, double rex is highly variable ranging from patchy fur to nearly naked to having fur and resembling rex).


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## smesyna

Well, that is easy enough to prove then. You just breed two velveteens together, and then breed two of the velveteen babies together, and if there are still just velveteen and not double rex, you know it is a different mutation, right?

ETA: If I'm way off base pardon me, I tried doing this in my head as I don't have a pen and paper on hand.


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## sorraia

smesyna said:


> Well, that is easy enough to prove then. You just breed two velveteens together, and then breed two of the velveteen babies together, and if there are still just velveteen and not double rex, you know it is a different mutation, right?
> 
> ETA: If I'm way off base pardon me, I tried doing this in my head as I don't have a pen and paper on hand.


That's how it should work out. But for some reason no one wants to do it and post publicly - makes me wonder why. Likewise a "double velveteen" (as I've seen described by some people who have bred velveteen to velveteen) bred to a double rex should produce a mix of rex, velveteen, and combinations of both, but no doubles (assuming velveteen is dominant - which is what has also been previously described to me, honestly this is the first time I've seen it described as a recessive). 
If velveteen is in fact a recessive, then velveteen bred to a standard out of non-velveteen lines should produce 100% velveteen (this is not what's been observed of the rats I've always seen called "velveteen"). 

*I have "velveteen" rats, but I'm inclined to think they are instead the crappiest rex you can imagine. I'm not breeding for rex, I'd like to see it gone. I'm not willing to do such a cross for that particular reason (not an excuse those breeding for "velveteen" can use to explain why they haven't tried such a cross to prove the existence of "velveteen"). About the only reason I still have it in my own rats is because I will not sacrifice otherwise good quality just because of coat type or color. (So if I have a rat with excellent temperament, excellent health, excellent conformation, but horrible fur type and horrible color, I will still breed it for the preservation of that temperament, health, and conformation, as those traits will always rank higher than cosmetics. Only exception being color or physical characteristics associated with health issues, such as manx or dominant spotting, which thankfully I really don't have to worry about.)


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## wheeljack

smesyna said:


> Well, that is easy enough to prove then. You just breed two velveteens together, and then breed two of the velveteen babies together, and if there are still just velveteen and not double rex, you know it is a different mutation, right?
> 
> ETA: If I'm way off base pardon me, I tried doing this in my head as I don't have a pen and paper on hand.


Wouldn't that possibly give you double-velveteens though? How do you distinguish a double-velveteen from a double-rex?

Direct quote from my breeder when I mentioned this thread to her:
_*Velveteen does exist and acts differently throughout the rat's life than a standard Rex. These Velveteens lose nearly ALL of their fur around 8 weeks old and then grow it back to the fuller, more lush version. They're not as Curly as a Rex either.*_

I know she's told me her rex rats don't lose as much fur when they molt as it grows back in clearly curly. Is it possible it is still poor rexes that are just consistently reproducing the same poor features in the same way? 

ETA: Sorraia typed too fast about the double velveteens  I want to say my breeder has bred two velveteen rats, but let me verify--I may be hallucinating and they may have been rexes.


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## smesyna

Oh it's perfectly reasonable to not want to try to and prove/disprove the genetics of it if velveteen isn't something you'd want to pursue anyway.

I'm really surprised it hasn't been documented, someone working with them should try it.

I dunno, it is possible there is a double velveteen, so finding double rex looking rats may not necesarrily disprove their existence, but not finding them would prove it.

If it is wavy, wv/wv rats don't look double rexy. So it doesn't always have to have that effect. I also found this:


> Homozygotes, Cu-2/Cu-2 look like heterozygotes Cu-2/cu-2, indicating true dominance.


I find it fascinating, but frustrating at the same time with rat genetics. lol

ETA: Can you ask her about it?


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## sorraia

wheeljack said:


> Direct quote from my breeder when I mentioned this thread to her:
> _*Velveteen does exist and acts differently throughout the rat's life than a standard Rex. These Velveteens lose nearly ALL of their fur around 8 weeks old and then grow it back to the fuller, more lush version. They're not as Curly as a Rex either.*_
> 
> I know she's told me her rex rats don't lose as much fur when they molt as it grows back in clearly curly. Is it possible it is still poor rexes that are just consistently reproducing the same poor features in the same way?



It is actually fairly normal for rex rats to lose their fur and grow it back in varying degrees of curliness. The so-called "velveteen" rats I have never lost their fur, though one litter of so-called "velveteen" rats did. I'd need to look at pedigrees to see exactly what names these two "groups" share in common, but based on memory I do believe the "velveteen" goes back to the same rat. I have also noticed rats are inconsistently labeled in pedigrees, with "velveteen" coming out of rex and vice versa. These are the kinds of things that make me skeptical. And since it is mentioned... I actually had a litter of standard furred babes lose their fur! Never saw it before, haven't seen it since, it was bizarre. (Not skin or fur issues, perfectly healthy litter, they just shed out their coats to nearly bald like rex babies, then grew it back.)

Here are the first "velveteen" rats to enter my rattery (when looking at descriptions and pedigrees, please note I have relabeled ALL "velveteen" rats to rex):
http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/godiva.html
http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/granuaile.html

Godiva's litter is the only one that lost their fur. Godiva was bred to a standard-furred rat and produced both standard and rex/"velveteen" babies.

Since then, I've had the following "velveteen" rats, descended from Granuaile (I didn't keep any rex/"velveteen" babies from Godiva), stay in my rattery. Not all of these rats have been bred (or will be bred), but those that have were always bred to standard-furred rats, and all of the resulting litters have produced standard and rex/"velveteen" babies. None of those litters had babies lose their fur. (My standard furred litter that lost their fur was from two standard-furred parents, though ironically were actually descended from Godiva!) 

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/porci.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/vi.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/eureka.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/drake.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/lydia.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/nymph.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/sacagawea.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/anastasia.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/lysander.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/quincy.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/Hermia.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/bridge/laputa.html

(and going through those pages I realized some of the pictures aren't working....)


These are my litters that contained "velveteen" babies.
http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/bobet_godiva.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/elan_granuaile.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/zero_granuaile.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/kigali_nymph.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/indie_lydia.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/drake_lacey.html

http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/litters/drake_sese.html

http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/litters/cygnus_vi.html

http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/litters/porci_winnie.html


This is the standard-furred litter that lost their fur during their baby molt.
http://blackwolfrattery.com/litters/vendetta_sangria.html


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## wheeljack

I'm not crazy! My aging memory cells actually worked for once  My breeder did breed two of what she is calling velveteens together in late 2010. I asked her to give me more information about the litter, but here is her facebook page showing what she is calling a velveteen vs a rex.

http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/CHRMRats2010/Velveteen vs Rex/

She also had a litter from what was labled a standard sire and rex **** and wound up with standard, rex and these alleged velveteens in the litter. If it's a poor rex, is it likely that only some of the babies would get the poor coat? The standard coated sire is listed with a rex dam on his pedigree so in this instance is it acting like a recessive? 

I breed ball python morphs and understand their genetics fairly well, I don't know why it gets so confusing to me when you take the same basic principles and add in fur :


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## smesyna

I know nothing about ball python genetics (just that they make some cool markings/colors lol) but while the concept is simple, following it through with the what ifs makes it a bit confusing sometimes!

And wow, the longer furred agouti is too cute!

ETA (I should think things through more before posting, I always think of something else): The dam was Re/re, so the male could have received the re and not the Re from him her *duh*.


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## sorraia

wheeljack said:


> I'm not crazy! My aging memory cells actually worked for once  My breeder did breed two of what she is calling velveteens together in late 2010. I asked her to give me more information about the litter, but here is her facebook page showing what she is calling a velveteen vs a rex.
> 
> http://s1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/CHRMRats2010/Velveteen vs Rex/
> 
> She also had a litter from what was labled a standard sire and rex **** and wound up with standard, rex and these alleged velveteens in the litter. If it's a poor rex, is it likely that only some of the babies would get the poor coat? The standard coated sire is listed with a rex dam on his pedigree so in this instance is it acting like a recessive?
> 
> I breed ball python morphs and understand their genetics fairly well, I don't know why it gets so confusing to me when you take the same basic principles and add in fur :


Those pictured rats I would call "poor rex" (they actually look more rex-like than my rex/"velveteen" rats!). 

If a standard is bred to a rex, the resulting babies should be standard and rex. There can be varying degrees of rex in one litter, just as there can be varying degrees of markings in one litter. Rex is controlled by a dominant gene, so the standard having a rex parent is irrelevant - the rex babie are getting their rex gene from the rex parent, not the standard parent. If the litter also produced velveteen, those "velveteen" rats are actually rex (like I mentioned, this is the kind of thing I see that makes me skeptical - names being assigned to variations of a previously described variety). HOWEVER - if velveteen actually is genetically distinct from rex, those velveteen babies in a rex/standard litter can only be the result of one of two possibilities:
1) Velveteen is indeed recessive and both parents carried that recessive gene (in which case those rats must have a velveteen some where in their background, as the likelihood of a spontaneous mutation occurring at the same time in two different animals is so unlikely it may be as well be described as impossible).
2) Velveteen is dominant and that rex parent is actually a rex+velveteen (in which case she also has a velveteen somewhere in her background, while the standard rat's background is still irrelevant because a dominant gene cannot be carried and one that always expresses, as rex should though there are varying degrees of expression, should show up).


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## wheeljack

What you're saying does make sense. The dam to the litter with the standard, rex and velveteens is listed as a rex (and appears to be a typical example). So with what we know about rex for this litter it's more likely the velveteens are just a variation of rex, correct? If velveteen was dominant and she was rex + velveteen we'd have no way to know that just looking at her? You would need to do those test breedings you were talking about earlier unless I'm misunderstanding.

I actually have one of the babies from this litter and had I known you were on this forum I would have picked your brain to explain what's going on with his color. Because of his dilutions or markings he has three very distinct colors on his body and I'm a little confused about how the dilutions interact with the markings to not dilute his entire coat. I'll start a thread on the other forum I think, I don't want to bore everyone to death on this one.


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## sorraia

wheeljack said:


> What you're saying does make sense. The dam to the litter with the standard, rex and velveteens is listed as a rex (and appears to be a typical example). So with what we know about rex for this litter it's more likely the velveteens are just a variation of rex, correct?


Yes.



> If velveteen was dominant and she was rex + velveteen we'd have no way to know that just looking at her? You would need to do those test breedings you were talking about earlier unless I'm misunderstanding.


I don't know if rex+velveteen would be distinct, or if it would just resemble a poor version of either. Test breedings might help to determine that, or it may be found that it isn't possible to tell (kind of like how a mink-point Siamese might be hard to distinguish from a lighter seal-point Siamese).


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## Kiko

I know very little about genetics, and this is painfully fascinating 

Time to dig out my bio textbooks and refresh.


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## Kiko

You know when I posted this a few days ago I had never seen a velveteen rat.
And Saturday I picked up my 2 fosters and one of them is velveteen how weird!

He is so adorable is hurts! He has the wavy whiskers and curly fur, and big dumbo ears!!! ;D


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## wheeljack

And where are the pictures????


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