# aggressive boy=possible PT??



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

Ive mentioned this rat in a few different threads. His name is Gus, he is a PEW that is about 7 months, give or take a month or so. He is becoming EXTREMELY aggressive as time goes on. He initially began getting aggressive about 3 months ago, I thought it was due to a head tilt, but that problem has long since been resolved and he is still aggressive. He was in with my other guy for about 2 months and they were fine at first..then Gus began getting really mean, and I was seeing a lot of blood drawn, so I seperated them. I have been trying for about 1.5 months to reintroduce them, with not much success. The only time they get along (or at least gus doesnt try to kill Sam) is when theyre in a short bath time-which is only used for attempted intros. He has begun biting me now..several times in the last month. I was dumb and fed him treats through the bars, but I stopped that as soon as this problem started. But now he bites me almost constantly, Im lucky if I can get my hands to the cage door to open it to get him out or give him food. Tonight, I had him out and was playing with him..I was tickling his sides and his head/neck area...and he turned around and bit me 2 seperate times. Then he also bit me when I was putting him back in the cage. I can't afford to neuter him til I get moved in a few months and find a job. He just seems so unhappy and angry all the time. Does anyone have any advice or know what I can do for him..? My mom wants me to get rid of him or have him pts. I don't think that is necessary of course, and Thats not an option for me. I just want him to calm down..not be locked in his cage all the time with little interaction. Any suggestions?


----------



## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy*

I'm watching this thread, and some of your other related ones, because it reminds me of our big and possibly quite old rescue rat Rascal and the trouble we've had with the intro with little Macaroni (Mac) Only difference is, Rascal only bites us through the cage when he's obsessing over Mac thru the two cages. We can still reach in and pic Rascal up any time. 

Sheesh, there's more to learn about this than I ever imagined. I wish I could offer you some help, but I'll wait and see how the replies go.


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy*

Im sitting here bawling right now cause I don't know what to do with this guy...He just chewed off about 2 inches of my other guys tail!  They are in a cage that is split in half and my little guy was on top and his tail was hanging down through the bars over the side, my mean guy climbed up and chewed part of his tail off...I couldnt get there fast enough to stop it..I feel so horrible for him. I cleaned up his tail as best as I could and put some neosporin on it. But my mom is making me do something about the mean one. She says he has to go. She wont pay to have him pts or neutered..and she said if hes not gone soon, shes gonna come get him when Im not home and let him outside...I just don't know what to do--I feel like a failure as a rat parent..I really don't want to put an add on craigslist for him cause he will probly end up as food...but I know if my mom just lets him outside he will die for sure..and probly in some horrible fashion. Does anyone have any advice?


----------



## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

Tell your mom that he needs to be in a separate cage asap. He evidently doesn't feel good for some reason. It won't solve the problem to set him "free". That is just cruel. 
Wait for a time when your mom is reasonable and in a good mood and bring up the issue in a calm way, do not argue with parents; it will work against you.
If you cannot change her mind, you need to find him a safe house with friends or relatives who are compassionate about him. Talk to the vet techs or animals shelters.
Anybody here on the forum?


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

I have tried reasoning with her on several occasions- my mom doesnt really give a crap about animals (or people for that matter). Im 24 years old but Im unemployed right now because I will be moving soon so Im compleltly broke. The only thing I have left to put him in is an old cat carrier. Which is where he is for right now. My moms idea of *solving* the problem is to either let him out in the woods or hit him in the head with a hammer--neither of which I will stand for..I just don't know what to do...and it doesn't help that I don't drive...and she wont take him to a shelter. My mom is very controlling of everything in this house, I wish I hadn't moved home. But now that I am..she controls everything now..who goes where-who gets what-how much food we can eat...EVERYTHING. None of my friends or family will take him in..Ive tried that route already when he first started getting aggressive. I emailed closest rat rescue to explain the situation and see what they say. Since its late, I will make some phone calls in the morning...God I just feel so horrible right now


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

maybe take them both to a vet and get them to check both your little ones, there could be something wrong with the quieter of the two and that's why your big one's attacking him...
i'm not trying to make you worried or anything but animals can smell if there's something wrong because the person/animals scent changes when there mood does
i don't think "setting him free" will be a good experience for him iether like u say he could end up dying in a horible way
your mum's not being helpful in any way by any of those suggestions


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

i'm also wondering if your agressive boy might be in pain and that's why he's started bighting cause that's his only way of letting u and his cage mate know there's something wrong
i'd still take them to a vet to get them checked over though...i wouldn't leve it incase the tail becomes infected


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

she will not pay for a vet appointment..for a *stupid little rat*...as it is...when he chewed off my little guys tail earlier..it was hanging by a *string* looking thing, that I had to cut myself..it was horrible..Not to be graphic...but it was horrible...and she wouldnt take him to the vet either...I just don't know what to do..if anyone would like to talk to me *would be nice to hear a friendly voice*..or just give me some advice on a more personal level...feel free to pm me


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

no offence when i say this but
your mum's a stupid woman
i'm so sorry u had to see that
it sounds horible to me and i aint got sight so i dread to think what it was actually like for u
*hugs to u and your wee rats*


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

no offense is taken, she is a very mean person..she had 2 of her cats euthanized because she just didnt want to take care of them anymore...instead of rehoming them. I love animals so much...my little guy is in so much pain..he is just squeaking..and I don't know what to do for him..except cry...God I hate this..


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

For the pain, you could give him one of the following. Dosages etc are given. Many of them are children's versions of the meds, but it tells you that info too. Just be sure to inform the vet (should you manage to take him) if you give him anything. Do you have a photo of his tail? Other members may be able to advise the best thing to do for him at the moment with no vet. It must be painful 

http://ratguide.com/meds/analgesics/
http://ratguide.com/meds/nsaids/


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*



Stace87 said:


> For the pain, you could give him one of the following. Dosages etc are given. Many of them are children's versions of the meds, but it tells you that info too. Just be sure to inform the vet (should you manage to take him) if you give him anything. Do you have a photo of his tail? Other members may be able to advise the best thing to do for him at the moment with no vet. It must be painful
> 
> http://ratguide.com/meds/analgesics/
> http://ratguide.com/meds/nsaids/



Thanks ofr that, I was able to give him some ib profun crushed up in some jello water. He seems to be calming down..although extremely scared still. He won't let me touch him, but he did give me a few kisses on the hand. Hopefully that will ease his pain at least a little.

I don't know what to do with the other guy though..Hes in the cat carrier throwing a fit..just digging the crap out of the bottom. I hope I hear back from the rat rescue tomorrow because I really don't have the resources to help him anymore I don't think. I will keep everyone updated..any other suggestions will still be gladly appreciated.


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

I've just found this that may have some useful advice on what to do with his tail: http://ratguide.com/health/trauma/degloving_injury.php

Perhaps it may be a good idea to put the injured guy in the cat carrier to prevent him catching it on anything? If your other boy is going crazy in the cat carrier he may be happier in the cage too. I hope the Ibuprofen eases his pain. Does the rat rescue have a contact number? Good luck with both the boys.


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

if u could find a small cardboard box to put in the carryer along with some bedding and a small bowl of water, he will probably just wanna go snuggle up in there because of the shock he's had
just make sure he doesn't de-hydrate...


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!=*

I switched them up..Sam is in the carrier having a drink and watching me (I put the carrier on my bed with me so I could keep a closer eye on him). The other guy is back in the cage for now. Same isn't squeaking anymore and seems to be calming down even more..so thats a good sign hopefully. I'm so worried about him. Im so exhausted right now..if I don't post anymore tonight, I will be on first thing when I wake up tomorrow and let you all know how things are going...thanks for the help and advice so far..


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

Well, I sent 4 or 5 emails last night to see if anyone would take Gus in--so far I've only got one reply and she said her rescue was full and that they wouldn't have taken him because of his aggression issues. I will wait another week or so to see if I get anymore responses. I talked to my mom about it--she will pay for him to be euthanized. I hate to do it, but if no one can take him in- I think thats the only option I have, its better then letting him go in the woods. -sigh- I hope I hear from someone soon.

Sam is doing better--sleeping a lot. I gave him some cereal this morning and he ate--and he took a little bit more ibprofun this morning. Hes still squeaking occasionally but not like last night. I hope he will be ok  --sigh--


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

You really shouldn't be using adult ibuprofen pills...but if you are lets work out a proper dosage. Figure out how much ibuprofen is in one pill and I'll help you figure out a proper dosage for Sam.

Your other boy is hormonally aggressive. These boys become full of these hormones and cannot control themselves. They are not happy rats when they are at the mercy of these hormones. Revmoval of these hormones (neutering) can turn yuour rat back into teh sweet boy he once was. Bad breeders or careless breeding of aggressive animals makes it more likely for hormonal aggression to pop up 

Scritching his sides, and butt are the worst thing you can do. I bet he huffed, his fur went up and he started sidling then he bit you?

When a male rat attacks another male rat they go fo the back and sides...and when you touch him there he thinks you are that male rat attacking him *chomp*

These rats are not allowed to climb on my arms. They will mount them (almost like hugging your arm) and will scratch then scrape with their teeth then lose it and start biting you badly. they go into a frenzy. 
For aggressive males you buy gloves for when you handle them. You figure out ways you won't have to touch them all the time. You make a coroplast corral for your rat and let him run around in there so he's Out but cannot hurt anyone. Teach him to get into a basket to go back to his cage. If his cage is small enough, put it inside the rat corral and take the top off (use gloves)
he'll hop out then you take away the base. When you are ready for him to go back, put the whole cage inside with something yummy inside the cage to encourage him to go back in 

You can hope the hormones settle down, or until you can find a home for him. 

I seem to be working with aggressive, scared, hormonal males more and more, the whole aim is NOT to get bitten. But its not all black and white.


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

thanks for the help and suggestions..I do not have a spare cage for him to be in..I put him on the top half of the old cage so that theres nothing hanging down *like tails* for him to get ahold of..Sam is in a cat carrier on my bed for now so I can keep an eye on him. I just cleaned his tail with some mild antibacterial soap and slightly warmed water *just enough so it wasn't cold*. He whimpered a little. Then I put some more neosporin on it, I also started him on an antibiotic (the vet gave me TONS of the stuff I was giving to my girl with the uterine issues). He's giving lots of kisses- I think he knows Im trying to help him.

As far as the Ibprofin--that's all I have. I found the lowest dosage possible, which is 200mg.I just broke off a tiny corner and crushed it and put it in some jello water and he took it no problem--it seemed to help. But I could definatley use the help to figure out a correct dosage, I just wanted to give him at least something because he was whimpering so badly.

What I think I will do with the other guy is let him *play* in my bathroom away from all the other animals. I don't think I will euthanize him at this point (although my mom is sooo mad right now)..

Do you think I would be better off keeping him in the top half of the cage (where he can't get to the little guy) or keeping him in the cat carrier once Sam's tail heals up?


----------



## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

Im not sure how big the cage is but if the cat carrier is easier to move around then I would say you should keep him in that. That way you can just bring the whole thing into the bathroom when it's his playtime.


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

at least she's come round to a more sensible suggestion rather than setting him "free"
i know its auful to see him put down but he cant go ripping your other rat apart like that..
keep us updated please, we wanna know the outcome 
*human/ratty hugs to u*


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

Aggressive rats always up top, see if you can put a solid "barrier" over the ramp opening. Make sure there's not a house underneath that opening that bottom sweet rat can climb on and poke his nose through. Sweet rats do silly things.

I wouldn't keep him in the cat carrier, its really NOT a permanent solution and you do have the CN which is perfect.

200 mg pill?

How much approximately does your rat weigh?
And can you get your hands on strawberry Quik syrup?


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*



lilspaz68 said:


> Aggressive rats always up top, see if you can put a solid "barrier" over the ramp opening. Make sure there's not a house underneath that opening that bottom sweet rat can climb on and poke his nose through. Sweet rats do silly things.
> 
> I wouldn't keep him in the cat carrier, its really NOT a permanent solution and you do have the CN which is perfect.
> 
> ...


actually I don't have CN..but the cage I have is still able to be serparated by shelves, theyre completely solid shelves, I'll post a pic:







--sorry my cell phone takes crappy pictures---it didn't come with that many shelves, but I have aquired more from a ferret shelter that had extra cages they didn't need..so I switched up some shelves in all my cages to make a solid flooring when the aggression issues started. You can see the butt of my meanie boy Gus on the top half of the cage on the left.

Yeah its a 200 mg pill. he weighs about 300 grams. I don't have strawbery quik syrup-- but I have the chocolate syrup..Im not sure if thats good for him though? I also have him on tetracycline (the stuff my girl with pyometra is on, he gave me A LOT of the medicine..so I figured Id use some on him so his tail doesnt get infected). According to the medication guide, no milk products should be given, so if I can/have to use the chocolate syrup, is that ok?

how long should I keep Sam in the *hospital* cat carrier? He seemed to want out to explore today, but I wasn't sure if that was a good idea or not with his tail like that..I didnt want him to get it caught on something or dragging it around on stuff in my room..


----------



## MissHinasaki (Jul 29, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

I'm not sure on this but I don't think rats can have any kind of chocolate. There's something in it that most animals just can't digest. 

I really hope everything gets sorted out for you. I've had to live with grandmother, who is an animal hater, as well and I know how hard it can be. Thank God for my understanding boyfriend and my sweet (and allergic to almost all rodents) mother for taking them in emergency situations. I know it can be really hard to find people to take pets in permanently, but if you can get a friend to take them in for just a short time until your mother calms down that might help defuse the current situation. 

As for your boys, I wish the best of luck to both of them.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

Chocolate is ok for rats but not advisable as its high in sugars, etc. Dark chocolate has been used to open up airways (bronchodilator) during a respiratory attack. 

200 mg pill of ibuprofen.

OK mix up 1/2 water, 1/2 chocolate syrup solution.

Then use a syringe and draw up 4 cc's/ml's of it and put it in a medicating bottle/baby jar, glass spice bottle with cap, etc.

Crush up that 1 pill that is 200 mg between 2 spoons, mortar and pestle, or a pill crusher(as fine as possible)...pour into a folded piece of paper and then pour the crushed pill into the 4ml's of chocolate solution (I use strawberry quik myself since it can be used with ALL meds. and the rats adore it).

You would then give him between .09 to .18 cc's of it every 4-6 hours for pain.

The 'cyclines cannot be given within 2 hours of anything with calcium (check the ingredients of your syrup first).


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*



lilspaz68 said:


> Chocolate is ok for rats but not advisable as its high in sugars, etc. Dark chocolate has been used to open up airways (bronchodilator) during a respiratory attack.
> 
> 200 mg pill of ibuprofen.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your help, I gave him the ibprofun by the correct dosage today--he seems to be doing a lot better..he wanted to play today so, I played with him for a little bit inside his carrier. Im going to give his half of the cage a good scrubbing and let him go back in there...he definatley isn't happy in the hospital *cage*. Any idea how long I could/should keep him on the ibprofun for?? he seems to be doing better but I don't wanna stop giving it to him and have him be in pain again.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: aggressive boy=PLEASE HELP!= UPDATE -7-30-09*

Pain meds should only be given for a few days, unless its an ongoing pain thing like my Faith's pyoderma. But for injuries 1-3 days is all they need, since they heal very fast.


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

so Ive been paying a lot more attention to my meanie to see if i can pinpoint his aggression problems and carefully work on his hand biting behavior. I was giving him treats last night and I noticed he occasionally only uses one paw to eat with, when he uses 2 paws they are almost always resting on the floor and he is leaned way over. If theres a possibility he does have a PT, could that be the cause of his aggression, or is it likely that is still because of hormones. He is only about 8 or 9 months old roughly, isn't that fairly young for a PT? I also remember back to him having a head tilt a few months back, and that is a sign of a PT, but that cleared up meds, so maybe not in this case? Sometimes he even lays down when he is eating, perhaps just laziness? Anyway, just thought maybe someone could give me some insight on my ideas?


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

How are things going over there? 

Some info on pituitary tumours is on ratguide; and it might help to read the case studies too under the "Figures" heading. Two of which were lilspaz's ratties. http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

PT, inner ear infection and stroke all can mimic each other's symptoms, but the treatment is the same for all...a steroid and abs (antibiotics).

With a boy is that young I would say its much more likely to be an inner ear infection, as PT usually develops later in life. Is he tilted now?


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

No head tilt-he had an ear infection back in like march/april and he was very tilty at that point. He was on abs for 3 weeks or so and the head tilt went away. He really hasn't been very clumsy or anything but he acts confused a lot and is getting a lot more aggressive very quickly, the only time I can really interact with him now is very slowly if he is sleepy and I can usually only pet his head anything else and he gives me a warning bite. He acts very frantic and confused a lot. There has been no circling or rolling over like there was when he had the ear infection before. My vet honestly thought he may have lesions growing on his brain--but that I'm not sure.


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

maybe take him back to the vet again, and get him checked out..


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

How old is your boy now? Btw once they have had an inner ear infection they can be prone to them


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm not really sure of his exact age to be honest. Someone else bought him as a feeder rat, he was in a tank with a snake for about a week or so, the snake never ate him *obviously*. They knew I loved rats and asked me if I wanted him. When I got him, he was not full grown, it took him about 3 months to become the size he is now, and he has been this size since approximately April. So..with that being said, my estimate is that he is somewhere around 8-9 months, perhaps a little older.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

littlematchstick said:


> I'm not really sure of his exact age to be honest. Someone else bought him as a feeder rat, he was in a tank with a snake for about a week or so, the snake never ate him *obviously*. They knew I loved rats and asked me if I wanted him. When I got him, he was not full grown, it took him about 3 months to become the size he is now, and he has been this size since approximately April. So..with that being said, my estimate is that he is somewhere around 8-9 months, perhaps a little older.


Ahh possible hormonal aggression?
Cannot touch his sides or butt because he gets huffy and whirls on your hand?


----------



## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

yep, he definatley has hormonal aggression...actually you have responded about this guy in the past on this thread ..hes the one that chewed off part of the tail of my other boy. He is extremely aggressive and huffy puffy and has bit me on several occasions. I've learned to be very careful how I handle him, and sometimes I have to distract him with one hand on the side of the cage, so I can open the front so he doesnt bite my fingers through the bars while I'm opening the cage up. So you think its more likely another ear infection opposed to stroke or PT? How the heck can I give him medicine when he wants to eat my hand all the time? He doesn't like to be touched or held and he's a heck of a picky eater..could I hide it in the chocolate syrup like I did with my other guy and the IBprofun for his tail?


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

littlematchstick said:


> How the heck can I give him medicine when he wants to eat my hand all the time? He doesn't like to be touched or held and he's a heck of a picky eater..could I hide it in the chocolate syrup like I did with my other guy and the IBprofun for his tail?


Give him meds in a bowl in some food he likes. Hands are safe then


----------

