# What do you think of pet shops?



## Rat-1- (Jul 22, 2012)

What do you guys think of buying rats from them? How do you feel about the ones that breed their own or keep them in bad conditions? x


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## Hedgian (Aug 18, 2014)

I've been told several times not to buy from petshops (mainly by my mom) because then it's supporting backyard breeders and in some cases puppy mills. I agree with this to an extent but then what about the animals that are already there and need help...


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## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

Sorry, but to be blunt, _NO. _Every time you buy from a pet shop to "save" the animal that "needs help", you doom more just like it. If no one ever buys their rats, they'll stop stocking rats and the problem will go away. Buying a rat from a pet shop is contributing to the problem.


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## Hedgian (Aug 18, 2014)

I know it's a huge issue I just feel really bad but I've only adopted a single animal for a pet shop in the past couple years. 2 if you count my hedgehog that I got from a pet store who's owner is actually certified to breed them and keeps every animal in the shop in great condition...


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## Lita (Jul 10, 2014)

The thing with rats and pet stores is they will always be a selling point due to feeder bins. We have two feeder girls, and one petsmart girl. Our petsmart girl is reserved but well behaved. Only nipped hard once or twice and it was always an accident. Our feeder girls are sweet, Cricket is very playful and curious, But I am starting to wonder if she might be good as a limited shoulder rat. Darjeeling is a bit wiggly and she loves nails but she has been so well behaved its shocking. She had babies, thank you feeder bin!, and has never had issues with us messing with her babies even though we barely knew her a few weeks before she had them! Unfortunatly rats are harder to get out of pet stores then some others, like rabbits or ferrets. With certain animals, i don't think the issue is so much that they are sold in pet stores but more how they get there and how they are kept. I would much rather see no feeder bins and only small same sex groups from responsible breeders but that is a perfect world i fear we are a long way from.


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## Zabora (Jun 8, 2014)

In my experiance when I go into a pet store to just play with the rats or while I am picking something up like a new hammock or treat and go look at the rats they are usually sick  it is sometimes just snuffles and sometimes full blown infections from fighting. But at the same time I want to take them all home


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

If you've got a reputable breeder nearby, then by all means avoid buying from pet shops. However, not all of us are that lucky. If a shop seems to be your only option then find the best one you can and do thorough health checks before buying. Always quarantine an animal like this if you already have rats at home and a vet check is usually a good idea even if they look healthy. The back yard breeders and mills are going to be there whether or not you buy from them, so one person not supporting them isn't exactly going to make much of a difference. I cringe every time I do it, but since there are no breeders nor rescues here, those are the rats that need homes.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've seen paradise and it isn't pretty. Yes we hate pet shops and feeder bins and rat mills... but the pet shop that literally owned the market in my area closed. The owner retired, the real estate was worth way more than the business and simply put there wasn't a decent suitable rat to be found for miles and miles and miles... Yes they had feeder bins, but they took half way decent care of their rats and they brought in decent quality healthy rats from pinkies though jumbos... It took months to find a snake person who breeds rats on the side.

Naturally I called the ethical breeders and the shelters... and they most kindly wished me luck. Max went three months without a friend and got really solitary after losing her older "sister" and being alone that long... 

Pet shops and feeder bins aren't good places for rats and byb's and pet mills are sometimes horrific, I thought I'd prefer a world without them. My feelings haven't changed, but be very careful what you wish for.... you just might get it.

I suppose there may be better models elsewhere in the world, but here in the US the rat fancy is for the most part a spin off of the reptile food business. Which is a gawd awful reality. And even if the reptile food business went away overnight, which by the way it might, with new laws about large snakes starting to pass around the country... There's no sustainable ethical model to produce pet rats and most likely never will be. 

Every year pet owners rescue thousands of rats from the clutches of pet stores and feeder bins, most come from sub prime rat operations... hate them, despise them, boycott them, but kill them and for the most part, pet rats as we know them today and in the future as a main stream pet will be history.

Again, I'm absolutely not approving of any industry that inhumanely kills tens of thousands of rats per year. But in this particular dance with the devil, there are no other dance partners out there....

And by the way, I did run the numbers on an ethical rat farm. One where the rats would have lots of room to play and socialize, where mom rats would not be overbred and where there would be one on one human staff to socialize all of the rats with a tracking and follow up department that would work to improve the species... I mean no insult, but I promise that there would few rat lovers that would line up to buy them. You are talking about the price of a mid level pure bred dog (and keep in mind many of those dogs are coming from puppy mills). 

Fast Math... If an ethical rat breeder was to quit their job to breed rats at home for a profit and intends to make $75,000.00 per year ($50,000.00) after taxes (no pension plan or health insurance) which would be required to maintain a house large enough for a decent rattery... pay the mortgage and taxes and living expenses for their family... And they converted the basement into a rattery with play pens and runs etc... and they could maintain and care for parent rats and not overbreed the females and could produce basically two litters per month or about 240 well socialized, happy and healthy pups per year.... the rats would start at $312.50 each assuming the breeder is willing to eat the cost of set up, food and dry goods out of pocket. Once you scale the business up and add, employees, managers, office staff, a heated and air conditioned warehouse and a full time or at least on call staff vet... people will be lining up at the bank for loans to buy rats... and I don't see that happening any time soon. Add a pension plan, and health benefits for the workers and a benefit's department and you're looking at a second mortgage to buy a rat.

When you find an ethical breeder who will sell you a rat, you have no idea what a bargain you are getting! If they actually added up their time and investment and paid themselves a fair salary and taxes, not to mention health insurance and a pension plan, you would be shocked how much you would pay for a an ethical breeder rat.

One day Fuzzy Rat took off to go back to the car on her won.. no big deal we followed after her some time later and she was at the car hanging out with a couple of guys that she met... I'm thinking they were contemplating an adoption of their own... One of the fellows remarked that she must be a very very valuable animal. I replied that she was only a $2.49 feeder rat, and we had to go... and finally got her back... But when you think about it, she had hundreds of hours of training and outdoor experience and even if you discounted my time to minimum wage and didn't take into account how rare rats like her actually are... she was in fact a very very valuable animal. A complete stranger to rats could see it, oddly most rat owners don't.

Shout about it, cry about it, kick and scream, the US rat industry is horrible.... But it's the only game in town. As long as there are $2.49 rats people are going to adopt them and when rats cost what they are really worth, I'm betting this will become a very small and elite fancy.

And oddly enough, even though so many rats come from such horrible places, most turn out to be amazing and loving companion animals to their human families... It's a wonder in itself... And a credit to just how resilient the rat psyche is.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

I see nothing wrong with buying a pet store rat. They're selling a product that you want, as long as the terms are agreeable to both parties why not make the transaction? I've bought rats from both pet stores and breeders. Given the choice, I prefer buying from a breeder. That can mean waiting lists, some will try to guilt you into taking whichever gender they have too much of, some have unreasonable adoption rules (No, I'll never do a home inspection for a pet purchase). But if a good breeder is available and I can wait, I'll choose the breeder. The pet store on the other hand is typically instant and almost "no questions asked" (especially true if you're buying from a store that sells feeders.) 

I do think people who buy all the rats from a pet store in order to save them are a bit misguided. More likely they just wanted to buy all the rats and the "to save them" is their justification, perhaps even to themselves. Buy 15 rats from a pet store to save them and they just ask their supplier to breed another 15 for them - the number of rats doomed stays the same. Yes, you made a difference to the specific 15 you purchased, while at the same time putting 15 more into the position they were in.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

Inod3, why don't you like home inspections for pet purchases?


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't blanket refuse home visits but I find it an imposition to have some stranger poking around my apartment. It is an unpleasant experience and I think an unreasonable requirement.

Of course I became more negative about this when I was refused a dog by a shelter despite living at the time in a lovely cottage--because I work during the day (as it turned out I was able to take my dog to work). I think these checks are getting out of hand. I still think about that little dog and wonder if she got adopted in time. The pound dog I ended up with instead is still with me 12 years later and we have had quite the adventure together.


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## Adeliek (Jul 28, 2014)

If was in the position where I needed a rat urgently (to keep another one company for example), I would first search for a breeder, but if I couldn't find one then yes I would get a rat from a pet shop. I've come across awful breeders and I've come across awful pet shops, but I've also come across some great pet shops. There is one pet shop over here (Pet corner???) who buy their rabbits from a reputable breeder and then sell them on for a profit, yes of course they want to make a profit and the rabbits are slightly more expensive but at least you know the person who bred them actually cares and bred them together taking into consideration health and genetics. Pet shop and breeder working together makes an ideal compromise. I tend to shop in the smaller family run pet shops rather than the bigger chain stores...but if I came across the sweetest friendliest rat in a pet shop who needed a home there's no way I could ever walk away.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

ksaxton said:


> Inod3, why don't you like home inspections for pet purchases?


A few reasons, really. The requirement of a home inspection makes me feel like they've already made the assumption I'm not qualified to have the pet and that I must prove them wrong. The people and stories I've heard lead me to think the kind of person who wants to do a home inspection is on a power trip and doing it for the wrong reasons - to make themselves feel important rather than for the benefit of the pet. And it would be a good opportunity for someone to scope out houses looking for targets to rob. We used to have a rat rescue in the area where when a home check was needed they would ask for volunteers to do it on the local mailing list - so the person doing the rescue could be any random person who volunteered.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm adopting from a rescue soon and have done all I can to make them see I'm a good owner, we communicated fairly often. I told her my father is protective of his privacy and asked if I could do like a video tour of my rat room, and she said that even though she understands the need for privacy the inspection is required. She said that one time a potential adopter sent her pictures of their setup, only to find when she did the home inspection that they had taken photos off the internet and that was not their real cage: so I guess I understand, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable having someone in my house and my bedroom (where the rats are)


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I won't adopt an animal if I have to do a home inspection. I don't even have friends over muchless strangers. I get why they do them, it makes sense. I have to do one yearly for my fanciers license for all my animals. I think if I was opposed to adopting petstore rats then I'd have to be opposed to shopping at a store that sells live animals all together. I don't believe petstore a make a huge profit off the animals, more all the junk we buy for them. I think as long as the stores are in business that sell live animals, they will sell live animals even if they don't make a profit from it.


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## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Short answer, avoid pet stores if at all possible. People wanting pet rats should adopt from good rescues and/or buy from ethical, responsible breeders whenever possible. Pet stores are a bad option for everyone, even herpers, with the conditions and breeding practices, and promotion of live feeding. You are much more likely to get a healthy, non-pregnant, and socialized pet from a good rescue or an ethical breeder, but that's not the most important reason to avoid pet stores, imo. 

When you buy from someplace like a pet store or backyard (unethical) breeder and give them your money, you are paying to put another two (or more) rats in its place, and making the breeder moms pop out another litter to compensate for the extra demand (plus, lining the pockets of people who treat animals as merchandise). When you save a feeder rat, the reptile does not go hungry. Another simply fills that slot. The situation is just perpetuated. It is great for the one that gets cared for a home, but what about the others thatt replace that one - rats just as worthy, but not as lucky? It's important to think of them, too.

Pet stores capitalize on pity buys - why should they care for their animals/treat sick ones/etc if people will buy them? It doesn't matter to them the reasons behind the purchase. Plus, there are so many needy little ones out there (most wonderful rats in themselves) to help that DON'T fuel the horrible system and cause more suffering by helping. I'd rather give my money to someone who cares about rats and will use that money to save more rats, not to doom more to that same suffering/awful fate and reward them for their callousness. Personally, if I can only take in one more rat and give it a good home, I'd rather give a home to the one where my doing so does the most good/least harm for rats as a whole and not support the industry most of us despise. I'd really like more people to consider that.

People are quick to say that buying a feeder rat doesn't matter/doesn't make a difference. Well, I can assure you it adds up and it DOES matter. A vast majority of pet people buy their rats from pet stores (being sold as feeders or pets, or both). With the increasing popularity of rats as pets plus the misguided but well-meaning folks wanting to save them from being snakefood, it really is a big part of the market. The pet stores and feeder breeders know it, too. That's why many of them breed fancier colors and varieties - they are not doing that for the reptile people's sakes. Also, it makes a big difference to folks on the other side of the coin - rescues can't continue to operate and save more rats if people don't adopt from them. If just one fewer litter is born to fill demand in places like these, heck, just one less rat, it means something. It's also one more litter of rats that could have those homes from a rescue, opening up space for yet another litter... and so on.

No one can save them all, so it is important to do the most good and the least harm with one's choices. Thus, much as it sucks to turn aside from them, it is better to adopt from a rescue or responsible breeder than from a pet store or feeder breeder, because by doing the former, you help more rats and those who care about rats, allowing them to continue their efforts, and by the latter, you condemn more to that fate and reward those uncaring money grubbers who put them there.

Of course not all rescues are equal, and someone should evaluate a rescue, breeder, or ANY source carefully beforehand.


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## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

http://www.brecklagh.com/petshops.html

http://www.shadowrat.com/rats/petshop.html


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## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Also, while not every breeder that sells to a pet store necessarily keeps their animals in terrible conditions, no good, responsible breeder would ever sell their animals to a pet store. Good breeders want (and need) to screen homes and know where their animals end up (not sold to anyone with ten bucks) and want to be able to follow up on them to get information about their health, temperament, COD, etc. It's not just about caring about the animals themselves, good breeders need to have that information to know what they are producing and to be able to make improvements to their breeding program, reducing tumor incidence, respiratory issues, etc. and working on extending the longevity of their lines. Plus, they should always be willing to take their animals back if necessary.


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## Lita (Jul 10, 2014)

I have a very sour view of rescues due to issues in the past. I tend to avoid them at all costs and instead adopt the animals before their owners dump them at a rescue. There are some great rescues with great people out there, but then there are those holier then thou types that that want only perfection from the adopters. I see the point to home checks, but I also dislike when they are required for normal adoptions. Special needs pets or high risk pets make sense to me. With the babies we are homing I have made it clear, especially on other sites I've posted, that they must have a cage that will meet my requirments, and I can and will ask for proof. Will i spend a huge amount in gas to go to their house? No but if I ask for a photo with a piece of paper with a phrase of my choosing on it then I expect that to not be unreasonable a request. And I go with my gut. If someone feels wrong, sounds wrong, I'll drop all prior agreements and say no way regardless. And especially on more risky sites like craigslist or facebook, I will ask for a lot more money then what I've asked for from people who are on a site spesifically about rats. Having homed a dog before though, i will say someone who offers to submit to a home check looks very good compared to someone who outright refuses. We had a couple who said they would be ok to a check and I practically decided right then they could have him so long as he got along with their current dogs. They showed up and i knew I made a good pick right off the bat. It's just one of those things that is a positive and a negative.


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## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Every rescue has different policies and procedures. I don't do home checks, but I understand why others might do them. I also understand why people are adverse to them, though I think a lot of people get the wrong impression about them and their purpose (or what it should be, anyway).


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## ponderosa (Oct 13, 2014)

I was thinking about adopting from our one in-state rat rescue. I think that what they're doing is a wonderful thing, but their questionnaire asks a long list of pretty invasive questions. I can certainly understand why these rescues want to ensure that these animals go to good homes, but we could tell that this rescue was invasive and seemed to want to keep people on a short leash even after adopting, and my fiance said he was not comfortable with the process and wanted to get rats elsewhere. 

I have also read some crazy stories about dog rescues and overly intrusive home inspections... I bet a lot of it does have to do with power trips. I think some of these organizations are scaring off and declining perfectly good pet owners. 

As I was reading on the best places to get rats, I learned that a lot of people are violently opposed to getting them at pet shops or feeder bins because of supporting rodent mills and back yard breeders, etc. And it all left me feeling very conflicted and even guilty for a while for even thinking about getting rats. I can certainly understand the problems with these bad breeding practices and the live feeder industry, but even if people boycott buying rats at these places in droves, I personally don't see these industries being phased out anytime soon as long as people keep buying live feeders for snakes, unfortunately. Also, for example, my area has no known reputable breeders so if you choose not to go with the rat rescue or you apply and get rejected, your options are pretty limited. I had been reading that in an area like this you might want to look into a "rat train," but I wasn't sure where to begin there, and the nearest reputable breeder was 8 hours away. Most of the market in my area caters to snake owners/live feeders. While I understand the ethical dilemma of giving money to the pet store or feeder industry, I also decided that if you liberate a rat from a feeder bin, as long as it makes you and the rat happy, it isn't the end of the world. While I am aware of the reasons why our decision is controversial, we got feeders to raise as pets. Maybe there will be better options to look into next time around.


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## shayfoxx (Oct 13, 2014)

I work with a cat rescue and our walk throughs are because we've had people who are cat hoarders who put they only had 2 on their application then when we dropped off a cat they had 10 in the house, we bring the animal with us on our inspections and if its ok (just basic glance in their living room, if its their first cat we check to make sure they have everything ok) the cat stays the night to make sure its a good fit before final adoption, it keeps our return rate lower.

Our application is number of pets, number of cats in the past, vet references, who else lives in the house and if they all know you are getting a cat. We've had plenty of crazy people try to go past us to the pestmart we work with when their apps are denied, it can get bad so we try to be really careful, we had a cat return to us after being adopted for a year, things happen but we would rather have them back


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## PaigeRose (Apr 12, 2013)

Personally, I will always go with a rescue whos volunteers/workers I know personally or the SPCA or Animal Control. The first and only time I tried to work with a breed specific rescue it was a disaster. My mom and I set up a home visit after going through a ridiculously intrusive and long application. Our entire family had to be there and we basically had to pose as some cookie cutter picture frame family as these people came into our home and picked over our lawn and where out outlets were... In the end they said we could have dog 1, 2, or 3 off their website-- none of which were the dogs we were interested in. Thanks, but no thanks. 

When I went to get my first rats my first thought was a rescue. I took one look at the application and closed the window. It asked for things like my income and that was just a no for me. I didn't want to purchase from a pet store or feeder bin and I was impatient so waiting for a breeder could have taken months. I ended up with 3 girls from an accidental litter off Craigslist. They were born in a home, raised with people, and healthy. My second 2 girls were also from an accidental litter and now I know a few breeders and people that actively rescue (but aren't a formal one) and I'll be going that route next time... 

About a year or so ago, I saw 2 absolutely ADORABLE sweetheart boys in a Petsmart. I wanted them so badly but this was before my monster mansion and I didn't have the space. A few months later the same 2 boys were listed on Petfinder with the local rat rescue. It was sad to know they've been bounced around but at least they eventually ended up in a good home I hope...


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Until the store closes or stops selling feeder rats the bin is going to get replenished... And if the store wants to sell more feeder rats all they have to do is run a sale on snakes. One rat rescued from a feeder bin is one rat that will find a good home. 

Sure it's true that that rat's replacement will most likely go to feed a snake, but if it weren't for that rat's replacement it would be that rat. The one you rescued or otherwise would have rescued... 

The vending machine argument isn't entirely without merit... but it's a very thin argument... Basically you sacrifice the life of the rat in the bin today to delay the next rat in the vending machine from being served to a snake...

In it's logical extreme if no one ever rescues a feeder bin rat, less rats will be bred, but on the flip side that sentences all of the rats in the feeder bins to a horrible death. It's heartless to sentence a perfectly fine rat to death and perhaps less than highly moral to pay money that goes to pet shops and rat mills. Simply put this is a no win situation. 

To be honest, if one less person breeds their pythons, thousands of rats won't be bred for snake food... (pythons can lay 100 eggs per clutch, live for decades and eat pretty regularly). And if no one buys dry goods and cages and food for their pet rats at pet shops that only sell pet rats they may do away with pet rats too.... 

Yes, it's a great idea to support ethical breeders and rescues. Blackthorn claims she has lots of wonderful rats at her rescue and she won't ask all kinds of embarrassing questions and won't visit your home so I'm sure if she were local, I'd check her out. And if you don't want any of your money going to pet shops or rat mills and you have other options don't buy your rats there... 

But in the grand scheme of things.... you would most likely be more morally wrong of you found a dollar in your friends couch and you pocketed it or stole office supplies from your job, than if you saved the life of a rat in a snake food bin. 
When you steal from your friends or boss, you don't save anybody... At least when you buy a feeder rat and your $2.49 goes to the evil industry, you have saved one precious life.

(Thats not to suggest that buying more rats than you can care for is ever a good idea! That just dumps the problem on your local rescue or shelter.)

And by the way, I've been boycotting Exxon/Mobil for 35 years and somehow they still soldier on.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Blackthorn, thank you. You saved me a pure ton of energy, with your posts.

Inod3 (am I recalling correctly?), who had the laundry list of all the Bad Reasons a rescue volunteer would want to do a home check--uh, yeah, no.

There are good and bad and in-between humans, in every walk of life, every role, every job, and every volunteer effort, but I can assure you most of these animal rescue volunteers have very busy and fulfilling lives, have their own families, have full-time jobs, their own pets, and their own recreations and hobbies.

They really don't have the time or energy to be scoping your place out to rob it (I mean, WTF?) or care if your bedspread and pillow shams don't match. Or you put the TP on the roll upside down or not.

What they are supposed to be checking is if there are any overlooked safety hazards that apply to the type of pet you are being considered to adopt. If it's a dog, they want to make sure that you actually do have that fenced yard you wrote down on the adoption app--and that the fence is safe, suitable, and adequate for the dog you're considering.

If it's a cat, they want to make sure you aren't a cat hoarder, and lying about it, as someone mentioned already above.

If it's a bunny, they want to make sure you actually took bunny-proofing a room seriously, and don't have cables and wires hanging all over the floor of the bunny room, ready to fry bunny and thousands in electronics, with one good swift chomp of the adoptee.

^^^Those are all just examples of what a *good* home check includes.

Having done many over the decades, I can tell you that the rescues I've worked with do their utmost to advise folks, explain where we see potential issues, and give them every chance to fix the issue, prior to denying them the adoption, based on the home visit.

We often also give them tips and hints, during that visit, answer questions, make reassurances, and just generally take our time to provide support for the adoption.

Likewise, we are there for follow-up, and a safety net, for the entire life of that animal.

All for free.

Yup, we do all that for free--that's why it's called "volunteering."

If you'll permit me a bit of, just a tiny bit of, spite, I hope you're a little ashamed of your thoughts and comments, at this point.

As for the never-ending argument about how pet mills will never stop...well, I can only be responsible for my own choices and actions, not those of others.

If every single person chose to quit supporting all that, it absolutely would be effective.

Life isn't that black and white, and each person has to come to terms with what is okay by their own conscience. Many shades and hints of grey---but I hope most are at least thinking about it, and attempting to support animal charity and good ethical breeding and husbandry, rather than animal mills, craptastic bybs, and jerkfaces.


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

Two of our guys are from pet stores. Buddy is from PetSmart and is the friendliest little guy you'll ever meet. Just beware of health issues. The two we got from PetCo originally were really sick. We didn't realize it right away and one of them died about a week after we got him.  The other survived after a heavy dose of antibiotics, but he's still super skittish most likely from being mistreated as a baby. He's coming around though. Our other two are from a breeder. Zeek is friendly but Nibbler is a bit skittish still. I kind of expected the breeder ones to be friendlier because they're handled from birth, but Buddy the PetSmart rat takes the cake on that one still.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

Ratpax said:


> Blackthorn, thank you. You saved me a pure ton of energy, with your posts.
> 
> Inod3 (am I recalling correctly?), who had the laundry list of all the Bad Reasons a rescue volunteer would want to do a home check--uh, yeah, no.


I said I felt it was unreasonable and someone asked why. So I gave a few reasons I felt it was unreasonable. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone any further into it. 



> There are good and bad and in-between humans, in every walk of life, every role, every job, and every volunteer effort, but I can assure you most of these animal rescue volunteers have very busy and fulfilling lives, have their own families, have full-time jobs, their own pets, and their own recreations and hobbies.


You seem to be saying it's wrong for me to think people doing volunteer rescue work may have questionable motives, and yet it's perfectly okay for them to think that of me? If everyone told the truth and had the best intentions there wouldn't be any need - you could trust someone who said they only had 2 cats to only have 2 cats. People do lie. People do have questionable motives.



> They really don't have the time or energy to be scoping your place out to rob it (I mean, WTF?) or care if your bedspread and pillow shams don't match. Or you put the TP on the roll upside down or not.


Yes, exactly they don't have the time - perhaps you missed that I mentioned we used to have a local rescue that asked for volunteers in the community to do these home checks? It's one step above asking for someone to do a home check over Craigslist - if there's 300 people in an email group can I really trust all 300 people to dig through my possessions?



> What they are supposed to be checking is if there are any overlooked safety hazards that apply to the type of pet you are being considered to adopt. If it's a dog, they want to make sure that you actually do have that fenced yard you wrote down on the adoption app--and that the fence is safe, suitable, and adequate for the dog you're considering.
> 
> If it's a cat, they want to make sure you aren't a cat hoarder, and lying about it, as someone mentioned already above.
> 
> ...


Yes - we shouldn't trust potential adopters. OTOH, the potential adopters should have absolute trust in a perfect stranger.



> If you'll permit me a bit of, just a tiny bit of, spite, I hope you're a little ashamed of your thoughts and comments, at this point.


The polite answer is "no, not one bit." I won't post the impolite answer.

Rescues have the right to require whatever they want - since nobody is forced to go through them. I personally feel it's unreasonable to require a home check. If an organization wants to require it, I'm one less potential adopter for them, and they're probably fine with that.


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## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

I can tell you exactly why home checks are necessary, people like my girlfriend. She is a great person and she means well, but she buys pets impulsively and irresponsibly, often without researching them.

The first buy was her rat. We didn't know anything about rats at the time, buying rats was what taught me to do your research first. After she got her rat, I got another rat when we found out they need companions. We didn't learn anything about respiratory infections until my rat _died_. So I did lots of research and got a new rat, and since then we've kept a close eye on their breathing and caught later issues early on. We got our rats from a feeder bin (I didn't even know what a "feeder" rat was until after we got our first two, I thought it had to do with how they eat or something).

Later on my girlfriend got a chameleon. She did no research before buying it and bought a lot of things that a greedy pet shop employee will sell you but aren't proper for the care of chameleons. She thought she would be able to handle and play with the chameleon but that's a big no-no, they're about as interactive as fish. She ended up very unhappy about her purchase and we ended up having to return the chameleon because he never ate a single thing in the two weeks we had him. All told she probably spent about $700 on equipment for him and we couldn't even keep him.

To try to partially get her money's worth she got a gecko, and we were able to use about half of the stuff she had purchased for the chameleon for the gecko. She did better research for the gecko but didn't check things like what it needed to eat and I had to explain some of that to her (I'm sure she would have but she didn't do it before she got him). 

Then one day she came home with a rabbit. She saw it at the store and wanted it so she bought it. She knew nothing about rabbits, and our apartment wasn't rabbit-proofed, but it quickly became clear we were in over our heads; it was too big for the cage she bought and rabbits are surprisingly demanding when it comes to food, not to mention needing to rabbit-proof everything.

But her mom, who pays her share of the rent, said she couldn't own a rabbit because it was cruel, so the rabbit went back and she bought a kitten even though I told her I was not okay with getting a kitten. The first kitten she got was deathly ill and we had to return it, but she got another one. Now we have two rats, a gecko, and a kitten, in a small 2-bedroom apartment. My girlfriend pretended like the kitten wouldn't burden me in any way, but she won't interact with the rats any more so I have to feed and play with them by myself every day, which is using up time_ I do not have_ (I was barely managing when we shared duties). They are terrified of the kitten and Nibbles has been hiding in a box for about 22 hours a day for three days. He won't accept treats from me and goes into a blind panic if I hold him. My girlfriend told me she would keep the cat out of the room the cage is in but she doesn't and the cat peers into or climbs on the cage every chance it gets, scaring them more.

My girlfriend doesn't even have a job; her mom pays her rent and schooling costs and all of her other expenses come out of a rapidly dwindling savings account her dad gave her. Caring for four pets, I don't think she'll make it to the end of the year before she's broke. If any of the places she bought pets from had given her a thorough application or done a home inspection we wouldn't be in this mess and she'd have thousands of dollars more in her bank account. I am very concerned that her impulsive pet purchases are going to ruin our relationship. Home inspections should be mandatory everywhere. A bad purchase can ruin human lives in addition to animal lives.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

I am honestly suspicious of rescues who do NOT want to do a home check - especially for dogs and cats. The burden of proof should be on the adopter and not the rescue, in my opinion. By all means I encourage any potential adopter to get as comfortable as they can with the organisation they choose before providing their personal address and opening their life up but I do not think it is unreasonable to expect a rescue to make sure you are telling the truth. At the end of the day if you get a bad vibe from a rescue organisation, you can walk away at any stage prior to the visit and not suffer any major damage but these people could potentially be handing over a defenseless animal to someone who has a bad living situation or uncertain temperament which has terrible consequences.

I do agree that some 'rescues' or individuals may have criminal or unethical motivation but in the age of the internet you can get a lot of information about a place before even sending in an application so you really are in the better position as the adopter. 
I do not agree with the power trip or the fact that many rescues deny the majority of their applications for trivial matters. The best rescues will work with potential adopters even if they are not the sparkly, 'perfect' owners that live in a mansion, are at home all day and have access to 800 acres of private land. This is because these rescues understand full well that at the end of the day, these animals need a home. There is a difference between someone being ridiculously unreasonable and picky and them trying to make sure this dog/cat/ferret/rat is a good fit for your household and your lifestyle. Too many people have their heart in the right place but have done zero work and research prior to inquiring about that border collie in the shelter and then it ends up dumped outside another shelter because it turns out that the people in that house refuse to walk it or provide it with mental stimulation whilst they are at work for 12 hours of the day and it has eaten all their furniture. Yes, this could happen in even the best of scenarios but doing this so called 'invasive' questioning allows rescue organisations to weed out homes that really should not be adopting a specific type of animal.

You only have to work with some legitimate rescues or know people who do it to realize just how much work and money gets fed into taking care of these animals and making them adoptable. For the most part, the people doing it right WANT to give you the animal - they just need to be assured that it will work out and you are the right fit. Unfortunately, this normally means asking you many questions that you will most likely find intrusive. There is give and take it in this process but it is so satisfying when you find the right place willing to work with you in figuring it all out.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

This is my first time with a rescue, and I told her some of my concerns that I was worried would not pass the home inspection. She told me that she doesn't expect my house to be perfect, otherwise she wouldn't believe I actually lived there. I can understand though being reluctant to give out your income information, that seems too far to me. I think just stating where you work and proving a reference should be sufficient. The rescue is really willing to work with me and says we can try as many pairs of her boys as necessary to find the perfect fit for my mischief


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## Rat-1- (Jul 22, 2012)

Haha there's so many different opinions


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## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

I think asking your income is reasonable, as it establishes you have money to care for your pet. I guess I also don't see a reason to care whether a random person knows my income level, but that will vary from person to person.


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## sarah424 (Sep 11, 2014)

I went to a pet store for my first girls and I felt really guilty the whole time :/ I got a fantastic pair of rats but I did something knowing it wasn't totally right, I've had so many animals and these were the first 2 from a pet store. I think that was another factor in why I adopted my newest rat from a shelter, but even she had come from a pet store originally! There are very rarely rats for adoption in my area but when I get more rats that will always be the first place I look


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Plenty of excellent rat owners can't pass the criteria set by some breeders or rescues. I'd think some might/would/should have reservations about the life style our rats lead. If you know you can offer a good home to an animal, it's nothing to get upset over, there are plenty of rats that need help in places that don't ask questions. No rat we ever adopted was ever better off before we adopted them.


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## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> Plenty of excellent rat owners can't pass the criteria set by some breeders or rescues.


Do you have an example or personal experience regarding this? You seem to have a lot of heavily biased opinions with no strong support behind them. I've never heard of a rescue turning down a potential adopter for no good reason. Why would they want to keep an animal that costs time and money to feed, house, clean, etc., for any longer than necessary?


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## sarah424 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well... Once, I applied for a dog from a rescue. I gave vet info, personal info, sent photos of my house and backyard, etc. I told them about my dog with epilepsy and how I don't mind taking care of dogs with special needs, since the white shepherd I was applying for had a heart defect and needed special medication every day, which I already do at home with Xena. They never even replied to me, I called and emailed repeatedly and they refused to even tell me no, I thought that was incredibly rude. The dog was 5 and had been there since he was ONE! So that's just my experience with rescues... The city shelter has never treated me this way but this was a private rescue.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I once asked about a puppy at the pound. The lady looked me up and down and said "I think someone else will be more qualified to adopt her." I was 20 at the time, but still... I would have given her a good home. I recently went back thinking things might have changed. they all have me a hard time about getting a fourth dog. "Why do you want a fourth dog for? Don't you have enough going on? What's another dog gonna do for you?" They said I had to come in mid day on a week day with all my family and other pets to meet the dog I was interested in. Why not the weekend when my whole family isn't in school/work? They said it wouldn't work and if I can't make the time I shouldn't get a dog... Okay? So I left. I thought it was kind of rude. They don't fix animals before they are adopted out, because it's a waste of money if most of the animals get put down. Which is fair. The cat I got was spayed before anyone was even interested in her. I asked if they did it because she was pregnant and they said they didn't know she was pregnant when they spayed her. Sure buddy. For some reason they don't fix any of the animals before someone adopts them, but they chose her at random to spay? I don't care about aborting her kittens, it's sad but they were over filled to the max. But don't lie to me! She also had fleas when she came home -_- I've had some other bad experiences with rescues and shelters. I've been denied for some pretty random reasons. But it's fine, I still donate money to their cause I just don't adopt anymore really.


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## shayfoxx (Oct 13, 2014)

Every place is different of course, some shelters are wonderful, some are too picky, and some treat animals terribly, I live in a large metroplex area and we have all 3, rescues are the same way. Some rescue owners might have had bad experiences in the past which makes them more picky.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

gotchea said:


> I once asked about a puppy at the pound. The lady looked me up and down and said "I think someone else will be more qualified to adopt her." I was 20 at the time, but still... I would have given her a good home. I recently went back thinking things might have changed. they all have me a hard time about getting a fourth dog. "Why do you want a fourth dog for? Don't you have enough going on? What's another dog gonna do for you?" They said I had to come in mid day on a week day with all my family and other pets to meet the dog I was interested in. Why not the weekend when my whole family isn't in school/work? They said it wouldn't work and if I can't make the time I shouldn't get a dog... Okay? So I left. I thought it was kind of rude. They don't fix animals before they are adopted out, because it's a waste of money if most of the animals get put down. Which is fair. The cat I got was spayed before anyone was even interested in her. I asked if they did it because she was pregnant and they said they didn't know she was pregnant when they spayed her. Sure buddy. For some reason they don't fix any of the animals before someone adopts them, but they chose her at random to spay? I don't care about aborting her kittens, it's sad but they were over filled to the max. But don't lie to me! She also had fleas when she came home -_- I've had some other bad experiences with rescues and shelters. I've been denied for some pretty random reasons. But it's fine, I still donate money to their cause I just don't adopt anymore really.


Here's the thing, gotchea--first, what shayfoxx said below your post is true--and it is what I was saying earlier as well--which is simply--some places do a better job of rescue work than others.

Heck, some "rescues" are total "faux rescues," and are actually batshite crazy hoarders. Why wouldn't that be true? There are batshite crazy people in all walks of life.

There are breeders who are batshite, shelter workers who are batshite, pet store employees who are chock full o' bats circling their belfry, and so on.

There are also excellent humans, in all those walks of life, and then most humans fall somewhere in the middle of that continuum.

In the situations you describe above, let me just give you a couple things to ponder, that might help you to not take it so personally.

Rescues and shelters stay slammed, I mean, just slammed, and it's a never-ending catch-up game, for the most part.

They have to go with the odds--they really do.

As in, odds are that a twenty year old with multiple pets might not work out as a long-term, for the life of that animal, placement. It just isn't something that statistically bears out.

YOU may be that "forever home," but odds are, "on paper," you are not.

Twenty year olds go off to college, they begin new romances, have children, get married, end up wanting to travel, find it way too difficult to find rentals that allow such pets, and just basically in general go thru A LOT of life-changing events.

They may *think* they want that adopted pet forever, but it just so often does not work out that way.

So, if in future you want a better interaction in a case like that (and no, they did not need to be rude to you, regardless), tell them why YOU are the exception to what they usually see. In fact, don't *tell* them, show them.

Show them an entire-family-commitment to that pet, a history of not rehoming animals, great vet references, continuity in pet care, detailed plans on how you'd handle a move to a rental property, and so on and so forth.

As to the shelter not "fixing" animals prior to an adoption, well, yeah. I mean, it is sad and it is a harsh truth, but there are very limited funds to care for those animals in general and it truly would be a huge mismanagement of taxpayer dollars to spend the money to have neuter/spay surgery performed, then also charge the taxpayers later for the euthanization of that same animal they paid to have surgery done on.

Does that make sense?

You did know your tax dollars pay for that, right, if it's a municipal/county shelter?

I'm glad you adopted your cat--health issues and parasites are pretty much part and parcel, from overcrowded, underfunded shelters--it comes with the territory, unfortunately, and I wish it could be different, and those shelters who do somehow manage to do better ought to be celebrated, but still, adoption and saving a life...that's a good thing.

I'm also glad you say you still donate--just check out whichever charity you are donating to--like anything else, some are great, some mediocre, and some I wouldn't give a dime to.

I really hope those of you with a sour taste in your mouth about rescue will sit back and ponder the "other side" of things a bit more.

Applying to adopt an animal with them is a bit like a job interview--and that rescue has to be ready to pick up the mess in any emergency, if that adoption ever goes wrong suddenly, even if that's middle of a weeknight, when the kids have the flu and you're getting it as well, and your car only has one headlight working and it's storming badly, but someone is on the other end of the phone saying they are moving the next day and you better come get the @#% rats, because they've "tried everything else".

Seriously, that kind of stuff happens all the time, and then the volunteers who give their time and energy get dumped on.


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## Hedgian (Aug 18, 2014)

Tesumph said:


> Do you have an example or personal experience regarding this? You seem to have a lot of heavily biased opinions with no strong support behind them. I've never heard of a rescue turning down a potential adopter for no good reason. Why would they want to keep an animal that costs time and money to feed, house, clean, etc., for any longer than necessary?


Recently I was turned down just because I had a cage that had "ferret" in it's name. (But this was a breeder not a rescue) They didn't even ask the bar width or anything they just immediately said they can't sell my a baby rat.


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## shayfoxx (Oct 13, 2014)

Agree with Ratpax a shelter or rescues biggest goal isnt really just adoption, its no returns, obviously you sign the agreement to bring it back to the same rescue rather than the shelter and we want that but we would much rather not have full foster houses and tons more needing then all of a sudden get back an animal we thought was places months or years ago and most likely cant go back to its previous foster home or they dont have room in the shelter again, it happens so often that most would rather be careful before filling their spot with some other animal when they might have to make a new spot that they dont have if it comes back.

yea hedgian some breeders can be kind of kooky


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I aim not to support pet shops that sell rats, and wouldn’t get rats from them unless the situation was urgent (a lone grieving rat with no other options available for company). Despite this as a child my first rats were from pet shops, which continued for a number of years until I discovered rat rescues existed and soon after rat breeders existed. Without petshops I probably wouldn’t have discovered rats, but I think some of the practices are pretty nasty (even with the significant improvements over the past decade or so) and would much rather support o good rescue or breeder. Saying that there are some very poor examples of both of those too, and I wouldn’t get rats from there.

I think one thing I most dislike about petshops (or indeed some byb’s) selling rats is this idea of instant satisfaction. Someone sees a cute rat, they want it, they buy it that day along with a cage and some food (both of which may not be suitable and are probably overpriced). The person goes through their lives believing that its perfectly normal and acceptable to see the rats as something that costs £10 and they can get instantly. It devalues them in my mind and makes some people see them as cheap disposable pets or even things (I will never forget the newspaper article about 2 boys buying rats and microwaving them from my local pets at home). It is true that not everyone who buys from pet shops think this was, but a surprising number does

Its not secret I breed and its fairly normal to get an enquiry wanting rats there and then or within a week or so at most, the person is so used to the idea of just getting what they want when they want it that even if they want to get a better quality rat or to do the right thing they just don’t see the point of waiting. To me each and every baby I breed (and my friends breed) are carefully planned, very much wanted and also very much little individuals. We wait for months for new babies and take a similar amount of time choosing the best possible parents and planning out the litters. Usually on pointing out we don’t currently have any babies and its not going to be until X month that there might be some (and then that the rats don’t tend to pop out babies to order) many people don’t come back to us, instead going for the instant option. It’s a completely different story if a person has a lone rat or similar urgent need for babies, we bend over backwards to help them find babies then, but it does get annoying when you spend time picking up the pieces.

I was recently contacted by a woman who had ended up with a loan rat and a cage, she was new to rats and really wanted to do right by the little one but was really clueless. Its been weeks of contact, advise and support and a lot of spending on the womans part (her rat is particularly fond of trouble, rat proofing has been a particular challenge lol) . All from the idea of this instant purchase, without thinking of the lifetime of commitment. As it is shes doing a good job and hopefully she will be up to 2 soon, but this kind of thing happens so often. 

I do think a real shift in opinion is necessary, its more fundamental than just getting a rat from a pet shop. It’s a change in the idea that because you want something you have a right to have it. I believe people should work for what they want, and pets are no different. If you want rats its part of your duty to do the research, find a good option to get them from (and go with your own opinons, even if those differ from mine) and aim to give them the quality of life they deserve. They should get the vet when they need it, good food, company and attention. If you have to travel miles to get the right rats or wait for months on a breeders list you should do that, I’ve done both in the past and its been more than worth it.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Ratpax said:


> Here's the thing, gotchea--first, what shayfoxx said below your post is true--and it is what I was saying earlier as well--which is simply--some places do a better job of rescue work than others.Heck, some "rescues" are total "faux rescues," and are actually batshite crazy hoarders. Why wouldn't that be true? There are batshite crazy people in all walks of life.There are breeders who are batshite, shelter workers who are batshite, pet store employees who are chock full o' bats circling their belfry, and so on.There are also excellent humans, in all those walks of life, and then most humans fall somewhere in the middle of that continuum.In the situations you describe above, let me just give you a couple things to ponder, that might help you to not take it so personally.Rescues and shelters stay slammed, I mean, just slammed, and it's a never-ending catch-up game, for the most part.They have to go with the odds--they really do.As in, odds are that a twenty year old with multiple pets might not work out as a long-term, for the life of that animal, placement. It just isn't something that statistically bears out.YOU may be that "forever home," but odds are, "on paper," you are not.Twenty year olds go off to college, they begin new romances, have children, get married, end up wanting to travel, find it way too difficult to find rentals that allow such pets, and just basically in general go thru A LOT of life-changing events.They may *think* they want that adopted pet forever, but it just so often does not work out that way.So, if in future you want a better interaction in a case like that (and no, they did not need to be rude to you, regardless), tell them why YOU are the exception to what they usually see. In fact, don't *tell* them, show them.Show them an entire-family-commitment to that pet, a history of not rehoming animals, great vet references, continuity in pet care, detailed plans on how you'd handle a move to a rental property, and so on and so forth.As to the shelter not "fixing" animals prior to an adoption, well, yeah. I mean, it is sad and it is a harsh truth, but there are very limited funds to care for those animals in general and it truly would be a huge mismanagement of taxpayer dollars to spend the money to have neuter/spay surgery performed, then also charge the taxpayers later for the euthanization of that same animal they paid to have surgery done on.Does that make sense?You did know your tax dollars pay for that, right, if it's a municipal/county shelter?I'm glad you adopted your cat--health issues and parasites are pretty much part and parcel, from overcrowded, underfunded shelters--it comes with the territory, unfortunately, and I wish it could be different, and those shelters who do somehow manage to do better ought to be celebrated, but still, adoption and saving a life...that's a good thing.I'm also glad you say you still donate--just check out whichever charity you are donating to--like anything else, some are great, some mediocre, and some I wouldn't give a dime to.I really hope those of you with a sour taste in your mouth about rescue will sit back and ponder the "other side" of things a bit more.Applying to adopt an animal with them is a bit like a job interview--and that rescue has to be ready to pick up the mess in any emergency, if that adoption ever goes wrong suddenly, even if that's middle of a weeknight, when the kids have the flu and you're getting it as well, and your car only has one headlight working and it's storming badly, but someone is on the other end of the phone saying they are moving the next day and you better come get the @#% rats, because they've "tried everything else".Seriously, that kind of stuff happens all the time, and then the volunteers who give their time and energy get dumped on.


 I said it makes sense they don't fix the animals before they adopt them out. What doesn't is that they lied to me about it. They fixed the cat I adopted when she came in, because they knew she was pregnant. They told me they didn't know. I would have supported the abortion either way. What I don't support is them lying to me about it.... So yes I am aware my tax dollars pay for all that. I also didn't even get an paper application for the dog at all. They didn't know I was 20 they went based off my looks alone. So no I don't understand that at all. Your reasoning for the defending that shelter makes no real sense to me. It is not okay to judge me just by my appearance. She had 2 weeks to find a home or be put down. She was a large dog. I have no intention on "proving" myself when they just look at me and judge me. I just don't adopt really anymore. I just go to else where to get my animals. Their dogs and cats die, well that's on them, I don't feel guilt over it anymore. I pondered the "other side" plenty. Which is why I even wrote" yea I was 20, but still that sucked." No matter how we spin that story it doesn't matter. They are wrong for judging me based on whatever they saw. I have my licenses for all my animals, they are all up to date on everything and they have never been with out a vet, the shelters computer system shows that in their records. If they want to further judge me for why I have so many animals well that's whatever I'm used to it, but no, I won't adopt. I'm not a hoarder and shouldn't be looked at as one by them when they have my whole animal history infront of them. To me it doesn't matter what someone else is doing, yea people return animals, I don't. I don't care what the people down the street are doing, they could return a dog everyday. That's between the shelter and that person, not me and the shelter. Why am I getting shoved in some category with the shelters fears? I could easily say "we'll I don't like shelter animals because they are second hand and messed up." All types of people would flip out on me for assuming that all shelter animals are that way, but it's okay for the shelter to judge all people who look 20 as people who aren't ready to adopt a dog because of xy and z?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I think it is all about balance. Rescues should be picky it is their mission to make sure those animals are taken care of and placed in a good home. And sadly the majority of people who want pets shouldn't have them. People think they want it but don't understand the responsibility or get bored with it or just are not able to care for themselves much less a pet. 

I just imagine if the pet was one of mine that for some reason ended up in the rescue, what home would be good enough? I would want to be 100% sure they are going to be a good loving, forever home.

Yes some rescues are too judgmental and too picky. But the majority are not for sure. 

I just can't understand the feeling of rudeness to being questioned before getting a pet. Yes you know you are a good pet owner, and maybe you feel you shouldn't have to prove that(?) but there is zero way for the rescue to know if you are a good owner or a really bad one unless they ask questions and pry alittle bit. And its better for the animal in the end. Because its better that it goes to a good home then take the chance that it goes to a bad home.

I just know far too many people who go through pets like changes of underwear. Or someone whose house is not just lived in but so filthy that you know they would not clean a cage often enough. Or if they have pets but they are not house trained. etc.... 

As for pet stores I live in a small town, I don't drive. I had no other options besides getting my rats from the neighborhood pet store. I feel guilty that I supported the mills. But I loved all my rats and happy that I got them. I made a choice I have to live with it. No denying that. I wish small animals would go the way of dogs and cats and not be allowed to be sold in stores anymore. But it would be a whole lot harder to get them then I think for alot of people. Maybe if we just had stronger laws about mills and the care of the animals in them.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

I'm with you on this gotchea. We tried to adopt a dog from a home, they first had a problem with my age, then my working hours so I sorted it so someone would either be home with the dog or the dog would be out and about with my F-I-Law who takes me to work AND picks me up so could have the dog throughout the day. Then they had a problem as I don't have a back garden, just a front... You walk out my house, look to the left and theres one of the biggest dog parks in the Midlands.. My brother has a dog in a flat that gets walked 4x a day and is perfectly happy. They talked to me like I was dirt and for that they have lost my want to adopt dogs from them ever again (purely a dogs home). The cats home by us is filled with mostly indoor cats which is fine as ours are indoor cats too (no lectures on that please, our house is set out JUST for them so they get all the exercise and amusement that they could want). Adopting an animal is a great thing to do but they put you in the same category as all the crazy people who shouldn't be able to keep animals. I work, I have a vets 5 minutes up the road who I know personally, I have on hand transport so if I need to go somewhere at 3am I can, my cats are fed the best we can afford £9 every 4 days in cat food for TWO cats! So it's not like we had any issues. They saw I was young and they ruled me out immediately adding in many other stupid reasons for their paperwork. I could of given a dog an extremely good life but because their heads are so far up their own behinds about age, they lost that chance.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our rats are amazingly competent and confident and intelligent. They live such an exciting and unusual life style. To be sure they all came from snake food bins at some time in their lives and I'm 100% confident that they were/are way better off with us than where we found them. That said... I can perfectly understand where a breeder or shelter might not choose this lifestyle for their rats.
























If you misread my comment to mean that rat rescues and breeders make unreasonable demands I apologize for not being clear. For the most part I assume they are well intended. 

If you didn't know me and if you don't know our rats, I'm thinking our exceptional home might not not look right on an adoption application... And I do understand that. 

I've had some rat owners who knew our rats ask if I might adopt their rats and train them to be true shoulder rats and lead amazing lives, but I've also had people tell me in no uncertain terms that they would never want their rats to live a life of "managed risk".

So when I say there are exceptional homes and exceptional rat owners that might not qualify for a breeder or a rescue adoption, I'm speaking from personal experience. I'm not upset and I don't blame shelters or rescues or breeders... Lately it has become more difficult, but we've always managed to find wonderful rats to train and share our lives with elsewhere. Many third world children are adopted by folks that might not qualify for an American adoption and they still usually find great homes waiting for them when they get here.

Take a moment and think about the morality of letting innocent rats die because of where they were born... Lets translate that to humans. It would therefore be wrong to feed or adopt starving children because it only leads to more babies born to replace them into a life of squalor. Even worse you could argue that if we feed starving people they will only have more kids who will suffer in the future... Really, does anyone want to defend this position? I sure don't!!! Sure you might argue that it would be better to adopt kids from better circumstances that would not in some small way encourage starving people to have children, and in some queer way, you do avoid a certain ethical dilemma, but as my sister-in-law was an adoption attorney that helped unwanted third world children and orphans find good homes here in the US... I'm not backing anyone up on that stand either. Every kid and every rat deserves a chance...

Our feeder bin refugees have proven themselves to be loving and loyal and exceptional in every regard, they have proven to me that they have every right to live and that's my personal experience. I think there are plenty of people that criticize the pet industry.. (I among them), but someone also needs to speak up for the actual victims of the horror show... I suppose for want of anyone else... that's me.

Adopt kids from wealthier homes, and rats from breeders or rescues, either way you are giving someone a good home. But argue that some kids or some rats should die for the misdeeds of their parents or breeders and I think I'll respectfully disagree with you. It's a personal moral and ethical decision... Everyone can call it for themselves and do what they think is right. As long as some rats and kids wind up in good homes, I suppose someone always wins. So it's not all bad.

I have no problem with supporting ethical breeders and shelters and rescues without the need for questioning anyone's morality that adopts from anywhere else. Yes, please promote your cause, but please don't do it at someone else's expense. You can promote local adoption without opposing international adoption, and you can promote breeder rats and rescue rats without discouraging folks to adopt rats of lesser birth. We all want more good homes for more rats I'd hope at least we can agree on that.

So, if someone reading this knows that they would be able to provide a great home for a rat and will do their very best to care for them and wants the love and companionship of a furry best friend don't let some stranger tell you you shouldn't own a rat. Or that it would be immoral to adopt a rat from someplace else. For the most part there are lots of rats that are way worse off without your love and care. Your home may not be perfect, but let me tell you a secret, rats understand and appreciate what you can give them... they will give you their very best, always make sure you give them your very best too.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh, I guess I forgot to rail against people that buy and mistreat pets and dump them like old socks.... I don't think they bother to come to forums like this for the most part and learn about proper rat care... so why preach to the choir? Yes some people shouldn't own pets, but I'm thinking that the folks arguing their positions here, regardless of which side they are on, aren't among them.. I haven't read a single comment here by anyone that I truly feel doesn't love their rats and other pets... so I'm addressing them.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

moonkissed said:


> I just can't understand the feeling of rudeness to being questioned before getting a pet. Yes you know you are a good pet owner, and maybe you feel you shouldn't have to prove that(?) but there is zero way for the rescue to know if you are a good owner or a really bad one unless they ask questions and pry alittle bit. And its better for the animal in the end. Because its better that it goes to a good home then take the chance that it goes to a bad home.


I think you said it well with there being a balance. Absolutely it makes sense for someone placing a pet to ask questions to determine if it will go to a good home. For example, when adopting rats I think a questionnaire that asks questions about the type of cage, cage size, type of bedding, type of food, available vet, etc... makes sense. Or pictures of the rat cage setup as it would be used. It's reasonable. I think it gets unreasonable when a home check is required, when the rescue wants to call all friends and family as references, when the rescue wants to call and talk to the employer, etc. The balance is in reasonable verification that stops short of being unreasonable. As can be seen in this thread, there isn't really a universal agreement on when something goes from reasonable to unreasonable. Validating employment by talking to the employer of someone wanting to adopt a rat can be seen as reasonable by some, for example. Ultimately the person placing the rat has the choice not to adopt to whoever they want, and the person wanting to adopt a rat has the choice of not adopting from that person. 

What does happen is someone hoping to adopt a pet might initially go to a rescue and then find the process invasive and insulting. I think it is a good thing that we have choices - if someone doesn't want their life audited to rescue a pet from rescue there are alternatives such as going through pet stores or breeders. It's a consideration in the whole pet-shop vs. breeder vs. rescue discussion.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Hedgian said:


> Recently I was turned down just because I had a cage that had "ferret" in it's name. (But this was a breeder not a rescue) They didn't even ask the bar width or anything they just immediately said they can't sell my a baby rat.


I had a reputable breeder who approved my application...right up until I said I was buying a DCN.

That was considered an "unsuitable cage" by this person.

I had a polite discussion with them about why--they felt the large doors were hazardous. I found the breeder reluctant to answer questions or communicate further, and ended up writing the encounter off as a learning experience. I respect that is their position on their baby rats, and that's that.

Ultimately, I ended up giving a home to two abandoned girl rats, and did get them the DCN, because that cage was what I felt would work best for my rats.

I don't feel personally insulted by this breeder and her opinions. I didn't feel her questions or applications were intrusive--when it comes to being considered for an animal being placed into my care, I'm perfectly fine with my life and home being an open book. I understand others may not feel the same.

This is why it's a good idea for folks to determine whether a particular rescue or a particular breeder is one they will mesh with, work well with, or not.

There're lots of comments on this thread about all the "invasive" procedures of a rescue--it is my experience that the really good breeders are every bit as "invasive" in their screening processes, and in their follow-up. They, too, as the rescues, are the safety net for the lifetime of that pet, should the person they placed it with be unwilling or unable to care for it long term.

@gotchea--I would ask you to please take a deep breath, re-read my post thoughtfully and see if you still take away the message that I was somehow "defending" that shelter or in some way condoning rudeness to you.

I really failed in my message, if that is all you took away from my post to you.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Ratpax said:


> I had a reputable breeder who approved my application...right up until I said I was buying a DCN.That was considered an "unsuitable cage" by this person.I had a polite discussion with them about why--they felt the large doors were hazardous. I found the breeder reluctant to answer questions or communicate further, and ended up writing the encounter off as a learning experience. I respect that is their position on their baby rats, and that's that.Ultimately, I ended up giving a home to two abandoned girl rats, and did get them the DCN, because that cage was what I felt would work best for my rats.I don't feel personally insulted by this breeder and her opinions. I didn't feel her questions or applications were intrusive--when it comes to being considered for an animal being placed into my care, I'm perfectly fine with my life and home being an open book. I understand others may not feel the same.This is why it's a good idea for folks to determine whether a particular rescue or a particular breeder is one they will mesh with, work well with, or not.There're lots of comments on this thread about all the "invasive" procedures of a rescue--it is my experience that the really good breeders are every bit as "invasive" in their screening processes, and in their follow-up. They, too, as the rescues, are the safety net for the lifetime of that pet, should the person they placed it with be unwilling or unable to care for it long [email protected] would ask you to please take a deep breath, re-read my post thoughtfully and see if you still take away the message that I was somehow "defending" that shelter or in some way condoning rudeness to you.I really failed in my message, if that is all you took away from my post to you.


 Before I wasn't irritated, just responding. Now you kind of annoyed me telling me to take a deep breath. Also, I read your thread just fine. I don't really want to respond to it anymore. Thanks for trying I guess.


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## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

Rat daddy, believe me, I have read and reread your story countless times. I'm not dissing feeder bin rats in the slightest. But there is no denying the pros and cons of adopting rats from certain places as it effects the breeding business as a whole. In the short term, adopting a rat from a feeder bin means instantly bringing them out of a bad situation and giving them a life they couldn't dream of (if animals do dream). Adopting a rat from a rescue is not as fairytale-like. They already have a pretty good life at the rescue, and can't actually comprehend that this is just a temporary home, so they're happy wherever. In the long term however, the feeder bin rat is going to be replaced by more rats and you are supporting, if only a little bit, the inhumanity of the poor conditions they were kept in. Meanwhile the adoption of the shelter rat supports fellow rat enthusiasts and strengthens the worth of rats as a species in the eyes of the public (this animal is worthy enough to be rescued). The pros and cons of both average out nicely, so I'm not going harp on about which is better. As for me and my wallet, I would rather go through the hassle of paperwork, drive 2 hours, and spend more money in supporting a rescue than I would just driving 15 minutes to petsmart, if only to support someone who wishes to see a breakthrough in how the public views rats as much as I do. Call me crazy, and I'll call you daft. As for your "analogy," I find it odd how you compare human orphanages to rat shelters. People don't breed humans for money, or to be fed to animals. Humans are not a market, at least not in the sense we're talking about. And for the record, one of my little brothers is a 3rd world adoptee. It's been 1 year and 2 months since we adopted him from an inner Mongolian orphanage, despite his psychological damage and physical burns that required surgery. I do not see a comparison at all between a 6 year old chinese boy and a feeder bin rat, not in this debate.


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## Fusion200 (Apr 30, 2014)

Depends on the pet store, atleast here in Sweden there are pet stores that buys from breeders either all the time or most of the time, don't know how many that do it, but they exist and I have two rats from such a store.


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## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

> Take a moment and think about the morality of letting innocent rats die because of where they were born... Lets translate that to humans. It would therefore be wrong to feed or adopt starving children because it only leads to more babies born to replace them into a life of squalor.


That is not a valid analogy... Adoption agencies don't find couples that are willing to bang out as many cheap babies for profit as possible and round them up. If you buy a child from a human trafficker who got the child from questionable sources - I'd say you're a horrible person, but that's a totally different argument


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## dakotah999 (Aug 25, 2014)

Ive met breeders for local pet shops, not to mention i went to buy a baby hairless from the place and the "owner/breeder" picked her up by her tail, dropped her and almost broke her back...she had mange and he when i told him he didn't let me take her but placed her in the snake food bin...refused to sell her to me!!! I have so many bad words to say to that dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Adeliek (Jul 28, 2014)

No one is going to be the BEST rat owner the first time round. I'm sure when we all got our first rats we did things wrong or that we weren't too sure of, if an adoption/shelter refuses you because when they ask a question you give the 'wrong' answer then they are being ridiculous. Why not just educate you with the right answer? Teach you more about that animals needs. Plus not everyone has the same answers when it comes to rats, everyone does things differently. Anyone who is willing to try their best to look after an animal and is willing to learn should be given a chance. My three rats have the equivalent to a DCN, they get at least an hour a day out of cage time, plus a few around-the-house-shoulder-rides, I give them attention every time I go in the room and they get fresh fruit/veggies at least twice a week. But if I compared myself to some other rat owners here I feel like I'm not doing enough and don't deserve them, everyone is different and as long as you are doing your utmost best to provide the essentials for that animal I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed it. I get judged about my age all the time, but I don't care it's their loss. I'm 20 years old, I go to uni full time, I work 20 hours a week and I probably wouldn't meet some shelter requirements. But I frequently sacrifice a social life and sleep for my rats. I swear these little furry guys stop me from going crazy! Like I said if it was an emergency or if I went into the pet store and there was a lone rat then yes I would buy a rat from there. And no I wouldn't feel guilty. Not all breeders are perfect, not all shelters are perfect and not all pet shops are perfect each has a list of pros and cons. Some people have no choice but to buy from pet stores and I don't think they should be made to feel bad about this. People shouldn't be made to feel bad about where they got their animals from as long as they are giving it the best life they possibly can. I sincerely believe that pet education should be incorporated into schools somehow. I suppose I can always dream!!!


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## MeinTora (Mar 19, 2014)

"Take a moment and think about the mortality of letting innocent rats die because of where they were born" 

It may just be me but I feel this can translate perfectly over to humans. Just because a rat was born into crappy conditions doesn't mean it does not derserve a chance...same with a human child. Nothing to do with human trafficking, or at least how I interpretted it.

Luckily I have found a breeder, and plain to never support big name companies again. Maybe one day it will be illegal to sell live animals at any store...but I doubt it. If there is a demand they will be selling. I'm a big sucker and can't even look at rats at pet stores...you can't save them all. That's the sad truth.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

MeinTora said:


> It may just be me but I feel this can translate perfectly over to humans. Just because a rat was born into crappy conditions doesn't mean it does not derserve a chance...same with a human child. Nothing to do with human trafficking, or at least how I interpretted it.


I think the point on that not being a great comparison is when a pet store sells a rat they put an order in for another rat and the supplier increases breeding to meet demand. So an extra rat is produced to replace the one "saved". You do save the specific rat adopted while at the same time causing an additional rat to be produced, so it effectively is a wash. It doesn't work the same with human adoption because the orphanage doesn't place an order to their supplier to have an additional kid produced. So it isn't a great comparison. That isn't to say there's anything wrong with "saving" a rat from a pet store. Ultimately if they're selling something you want to buy, why not? I don't adopt rats because I'm trying to save all the rats in the world, but because I enjoy having them as a pet.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Tesumph said:


> Rat daddy, believe me, I have read and reread your story countless times. I'm not dissing feeder bin rats in the slightest. But there is no denying the pros and cons of adopting rats from certain places as it effects the breeding business as a whole. In the short term, adopting a rat from a feeder bin means instantly bringing them out of a bad situation and giving them a life they couldn't dream of (if animals do dream). Adopting a rat from a rescue is not as fairytale-like. They already have a pretty good life at the rescue, and can't actually comprehend that this is just a temporary home, so they're happy wherever. In the long term however, the feeder bin rat is going to be replaced by more rats and you are supporting, if only a little bit, the inhumanity of the poor conditions they were kept in. Meanwhile the adoption of the shelter rat supports fellow rat enthusiasts and strengthens the worth of rats as a species in the eyes of the public (this animal is worthy enough to be rescued). The pros and cons of both average out nicely, so I'm not going harp on about which is better. As for me and my wallet, I would rather go through the hassle of paperwork, drive 2 hours, and spend more money in supporting a rescue than I would just driving 15 minutes to petsmart, if only to support someone who wishes to see a breakthrough in how the public views rats as much as I do. Call me crazy, and I'll call you daft. As for your "analogy,"* I find it odd how you compare human orphanages to rat shelters. People don't breed humans for money, or to be fed to animals. Humans are not a market, at least not in the sense we're talking about.* And for the record, one of my little brothers is a 3rd world adoptee. It's been 1 year and 2 months since we adopted him from an inner Mongolian orphanage, despite his psychological damage and physical burns that required surgery. I do not see a comparison at all between a 6 year old chinese boy and a feeder bin rat, not in this debate.


To the part I've bolded, above--yep.

The analogy is invalid, precisely because of what you say.

These rats produced are a salable commodity, there is supply and demand, and there are consumer influences on the market.

I would hope to **** there does not exist an orphanage anywhere that says "Green-eyed babies are going fast this week, let's order more, and see if we can get some teen girls working on some new pregnancies to fill that demand ASAP."


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Ratpax said:


> "...let's order more, and see if we can get some teen girls working on some new pregnancies to fill that demand ASAP."


 I'm pretty sure mtv and the producers of 16 and pregnant do that XD


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually if we stop sending aid to starving people, and adopting their children, more of this generation will die and less will be born into suffering... I thought that was the comparison and the point to the vending machine model I was making... we stop future suffering by letting those already born die horrible deaths. And what if some unscrupulous person was having children to sell to adopters for a profit? Babies can fetch $20,000.00 each. So why do we suppose it can't be or hasn't been done? Would you advocate that the babies be sacrificed to prevent more from being bred? It may sound crazy but you wanted an apples to apples example... and the question stands, would you kill the innocent babes to punish their moms? And yes, my sister in law did have moms who offered babies for money. I can't say it was done or by whom, but you can pretty much assume it has been.

And yes, my original model wasn't an exact model, you can't just freeze surplus dead children for use later like you can surplus rats. So if you don't buy a rat from a feeder bin, the supplier will just freeze one more. And if a python lays a clutch of eggs tomorrow there will be plenty of hungry mouths to feed soon and that frozen rat will have plenty of places to go... My friend worked for a snake importer, they had frozen rats delivered by the truck load, a few more or less in the count didn't matter one way or the other... If the supplier had an extra case of rats on hand, they would have been happy to take them, better yet for a small discount.

This vending machine argument boils down letting real live innocent rats die for the possible benefit that if no more snakes hatch in captivity and no one imports any more, one less rat might be bred tomorrow. At best it's like arguing that if every bicycle rider boycotted the oil industry, less oil will be produced. In all reality while all of the bike riders in the world are lubricating their chains with crisco the oil industry will still carry on wholly undiminished, even if it does sell a little less oil... Does anyone think for a single minute that not buying a feeder rat is going to take down a rat mill, a store or the whole pet industry? And in the mean time rats are going to die needlessly when there may be good homes for them out there and there are people looking for rats as pets that can't find any breeder or rescue rats.

Has anyone ever thought of what an ethical dilemma some folks are putting other's into... Some folks either don't have an ethical breeder or a good rescue nearby, or the breeders and rescues don't have suitable rats or won't adopt to the folks looking for a rat and then someone suggests that they shouldn't rescue a feeder bin or pet shop rat either... 

So, in order to be morally pure and ethically correct they just shouldn't adopt a rat? Or maybe they should just live with the shame and guilt of it? I don't like the big oil companies and the geopolitical politics of oil might someday bring an end to the world as we know it and maybe I feel a little bit guilty about not riding a bicycle lubricated with crisco to work... but I don't feel the least bit guilty about rescuing my babies from a feeder bin. And no one else should either.

This debate keeps revolving about what is good for rats vs what is good for rats... Some argue that letting one rat be fed to a snake is better for the next rat that's going to be fed to a snake too, because perhaps there will be one fewer rat born that would otherwise be fed to a snake in the chain of causality... I'm arguing that if you care about rats, you have to care about those rats already in feeder bins and needing good homes.

Now, if someone doesn't want any of their money to go to the pet industry they can adopt their rat from a rescue, or an ethical breeder. They might even be able to get one from an exterminator that destroys rat nests and comes across orphan babies... or they can opt not to adopt a rat altogether... That's a personal choice.

But when it comes down to a general moral code of conduct... this debate comes down to a simple choice; save a rat or don't. What's more important the rat that needs a good home or some rat that isn't even born yet? Withholding a few bucks from the pet industry or saving a real live rat that needs a good home? It boils down to what you mean by helping rats... Do want to save a rat or hurt an industry you don't like? Because killing rats to save rats doesn't make any sense to me.

If someone wants to argue that adopting a breeder rat or a rescue rat is *more good* than adopting a feeder or a pet store rat I wouldn't argue against that... Why bother, a rat that needs a home finds one, and I'm ecstatic. It's all good. But when someone argues that feeder bin rats and store rats need to become snake food or die in their cages unwanted and unloved to benefit rats and that people who adopt pet shop rats and feeder rats are immoral or unethical I think they are taking what started out as a pretty good idea way over the top into a logical absurdity.... When trying to save rats from terrible conditions, let's not forget the rats we set out to save in the first place.

You can argue for ethical breeding and rescues and shelters and against rat mills and pet shops, without holding the poor innocent rats that need good homes and the people that adopt them hostage in the debate. You don't even have to change your minds... just dial it back to supporting your cause without dumping on other people and innocent animals... I'm not asking anyone to encourage the adoption of feeder bin or store rats, just stop dumping on the rats and those that adopt them. Every rat deserves a good forever home and anyone who adopts a rat and loves it and takes care of it is doing a good thing (full stop)


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> ]This vending machine argument boils down letting real live innocent rats die for the possible benefit that if no more snakes hatch in captivity and no one imports any more, one less rat might be bred tomorrow.


I don't think that's what people are saying at all. Boycotting just doesn't work.

You seem to be presenting only two options. Either 1) purchasing rats at pet-stores will "save" rats, or 2) not-purchasing rats at pet-stores will "save" rats. 

I think option 3 is actually correct. 3) Whether or not you purchase a rat at a pet store, you aren't saving rats. You can have the view that purchasing a rat at a pet store doesn't reduce the number of rats fed to snakes and such without believing that the opposite will somehow save rats from that fate.


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## MeinTora (Mar 19, 2014)

You will save a rat. Maybe just a single rat, but that doesn't mean it does not count. You are looking at it very cold and clinical.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

These are the same flawed arguments that kept Petland and all the rest doing a booming business with Lambriar Kennels and other puppy mills and puppy brokers, for so many years.

Education, and consumers opting to adopt works. It worked to a huge extent for puppies and kittens, and is becoming more prevalent for rabbits and guinea pigs. More progress needs to be made, but we've come a long, long way.

Hopefully, someday, rats will be granted as much value and respect by the general public.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

MeinTora said:


> You will save a rat. Maybe just a single rat, but that doesn't mean it does not count. You are looking at it very cold and clinical.


Well, yes and no. For that specific rat you can make a huge difference. I'd like to think I've made a difference in the lives of all rats I've kept. In the number of rats fed to snakes however I don't believe I've ever made a difference. For example, say there's a pet shop in my town that sells 2,000 rats per year as snake food. If I approach the pet shop and tell them I want to purchase 1,000 rats to save them from snake food, how many rats will they sell as snake food? It'd be silly to think 1,000 is the answer - I just increased the number they pay to have bred by 1,000. If I did the same, but only offered to buy 1 rat, would the number sold as snake food decline to 1999?

That's pretty much what people get at when they say purchasing a rat doesn't save rats from being snake food. The individual rat yes, in exchange for another. Personally, I dislike the word "saved". If someone says they took in a dozen rats from someone on Craigslist because they were threatening to sell them as snake food, it's kind of silly to think the snakes are going to starve to death. Just different rats end up the food is all. But more than that, a LOT of hoarders start off with the best intentions of "saving" animals from some worse fate. If someone actually believed purchasing 1,000 rats could reduce the number of rats sold as snake food by 1,000 they might very well do it. Even if they can't provide adequate care, "at least it's better than snake food". With these good intentions they would actually cause an additional 1,000 rats to be bred and odds are anyone with 1,000 rats doesn't have great living conditions for the rats they have. That's not doing anyone or any rat a real favor IMO.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Confused people might buy 1000 rats for any reason from hoarding to animal sacrifice, some might just be listening to the voices in their head... I think we would have a pretty short one sided thread if we were to debate the merits of anyone adopting 1000 rats as pets. No disrespect intended towards anyone with 1000 pet rats with sufficient staff and resources to maintain them... 

But for the sake of the argument at hand, I'll assume that you actually have found good forever homes for 1000 rats and that's where they are going so these rats are actually rescued and not just dumped at a shelter or further mistreated. Just to keep apples to apples....

Now before you intervened 2000 rats were fed to snakes and 0 were rescued, after you intervened, based on your example, 2000 rats were fed to snakes and 1000 were rescued. The net number of rats fed to snakes hasn't decreased, nor has it increased, no additional rats were killed. The only difference is that 1000 rats have found good forever homes. So to shorthand the argument if you save a rat you don't condemn any additional rats to death by doing it, but you do save a rat from a horrific death. That's the vending machine model in a nutshell. 

Now here's where the vending machine model goes wonky... by pulling 1000 rats out of circulation you assume that there are another 1000 rats available to replace them for the snakes... If you presuppose that there's such an excess capacity of rats already available then the vending machine model is again flawed... it presupposes that production is limited by demand. By assuming that there are 1000 surplus rats already available, then you assume that production isn't based on demand and rather production capacity. This is certainly possible. Surplus rats are definitely frozen and there may be other uses for them we aren't accounting for or perhaps they are just euthanized if no one buys them. But where ever the surplus rats are going, we can assume that they aren't finding good forever homes... In this model capacity always exceeds demand the vending machine constantly overflows so regardless of how many rats you take out of it to rescue there will always be more rats bred than is required to fill it.... and pulling out one or even a thousand rats to rescue as pets becomes even more irrelevant.

From the perspective of actually saving rats from a horrible death, the best way to do it and the most certain way to do it is to adopt one (full stop)


Now there is a problem with my argument. At best I'm arguing that you do no harm by adopting a feeder rat from the standpoint of saving rats.... which isn't the whole story either. Assuming that you paid lets pick $3000.00 for the rats you put that amount of money into the combined pockets of the store and the rat mill. It can be argued that $3000.00 to rescue 1000 rats is a pretty cheap price when taken into account that 1000 rats will have good homes and a whole lot of folks will have new best furry friends. But others will argue that it's not the $3000.00, it's who it's paid to. Your buying souls from the devil and that can't be good for your karma (pardon the really mixed up metaphor). And I can't argue that that's a good idea objectively speaking. It would always be more desirable end rat mills and have pet shops that sell rats take appropriate care of them.

Through public awareness and legislation puppy mills have been shut down and owners prosecuted. And if every rat owner made it clear to their pet shops that they need to take better care of their rats or they will lose the food, cage and dry goods business which they do rely on as an income stream things might change. Perhaps stores should be required to post their sources and rat produces need to be inspected and held to certain standards. There are already laws in many towns and cities regarding commercially breeding animals in residential neighborhoods, and those should be enforced. There are lots of things that can be done to impact the rat industry that don't involve sentencing every pet shop or feeder rat to death.

Basically if you want to really change things, you form a PAC and start a lobby, you hit the web and cultivate the media and you make a change. You organize rallies and stage media events. You don't cannibalize your own supporters by questioning their morality or disparaging their choices or worse yet their rats. 

There is of course one more alternative, to support an ethical and profitable commercial breeding operation or operations. This would mean that rats will cost really big bucks, about the same price as a puppy.

Boycotting pet store or feeder rats doesn't really help the rats which should be our first priority. It does however create a little extra revenue for the pet shops and rat mills assuming they aren't working at capacity already or they don't have outlets for their surplus inventory. In the best case there's a trade off here, we are paying the folks we dislike most to breed the rats we love. In the worst case scenario you aren't saving any rats and having no impact on the industry at all. 

That sounds pretty hypocritical, but until things change, pet shops, byb's and rat mills are the only real game in most towns. All of the ethical hobby breeders and all of the rescues couldn't supply the national demand for pet rats for two days and they certainly couldn't satisfy any part of the demand for food animals or lab animals or for animals used in education... So for now, you pay the devil to save a little angel... It's may not be the best deal, but it's not a tragically bad deal. And certainly it isn't an immoral one. If I had to argue the morality, I'd say it is more moral to pay ransom than let someone you love die. Even if it is unethical to give money to kidnappers, it would be less moral to allow your loved one to die for the sake of money. If Ronald Reagan didn't deliver a few airplane parts that were used against Iraq to Iran, we would be on day 15,948 of the Iran hostage crisis today. And I hate to say it, but we sent a whole lot more weapons that wound up being used in Iraq during desert storm and desert shield than we ever sold to Iran. So things didn't turn out as bad as they looked. We got the hostages back and it really didn't cost us anything we wouldn't have shot at Iraq anyway.

Is it better to support ethical breeders, rescues and shelters? Sure, you get a best friend and you don't pay money to a rat mill or a pet store. But I conceded right at the start that I support breeders and rescues. 

So how much are your rats worth to you? $10.00? $100.00 $300.00 or perhaps they are priceless... what if you had to pay that amount to someone you really hated? Would that make your rats any less valuable or priceless and would your decision be any less moral? I believe a rat's life is precious and I believe they offer a very special relationship to their humans, so anyone that adopts a rat is doing a good thing for the rat and for themselves which far outweighs the few buck they contribute to the evil industry... If you rescue a rat you are a hero to some innocent rat and no additional rats get fed to snakes.


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## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

> . And what if some unscrupulous person was having children to sell to adopters for a profit? Babies can fetch $20,000.00 each. So why do we suppose it can't be or hasn't been done?



That is exactly why I mentioned human trafficking. 




> You will save a rat. Maybe just a single rat, but that doesn't mean it does not count.



Although I agree with inod3 that neither buying or leaving the rat is saving a rat, I will add that sometimes a pet shop rat is going to be very sick and it might die shortly after you buy it or suffer a life of myco and tumors. Not only have you perpetuated the problem of breeding sick rats, if your rat dies in a week because of serious illness (and we see our share of threads about that) you didn't save it at all.

The analogies are getting out of hand for me so I'll check out here.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I think that many if not most rescue rats and shelter rats were originally feeder or pet shop rats and therefore the genetic history of the rats may be somewhat similar and not a factor significantly into the debate... 

I haven't seen any convincing data that indicates that most rats from breeders are significantly improved and don't get tumors or myco... although some hobby breeders claim to be breeding better than average rats, which may or may not be true on a case by case basis. Hobby bred rats do get better food and care than rat mill rats, so the may get some health benefits because of that though. The big sell for hobby bred rats is that most come pre-socialized and handled before a new rat owners adopts them and they hopefully haven't had lots of bad experiences with humans which will make them hard to bond with... Even if health isn't an issue, a hobby bred rat is a pretty good candidate for adoption by any new rat owner that isn't prepared to socialize a rat completely on her own.


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