# New Owner & Hey, guys. I'm a new rat owner. So, yesterday I boughSkittish Baby Rats



## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

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## PaigeRose (Apr 12, 2013)

Oh they are SUPER cute! I'm a sucker for husky rats, its sad they're so rare in the US. 

Have you checked out the Immersion sticky? Thats a great socialization technique. All you can do is spend as much time as possible with them, they should warm up to you soon. The more long chunks of time (think multiple hours) you spend with them out, the faster they'll warm up to you.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks, I love huskies too.

But what do you mean with spending time? Just siting by their cage and talking to them or something else? What do you think about my recording thing?


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

Yeah, it sounds like you will need some hours to spend with them. After some time, they have to acknowledge you're there. 

Also, I fully understand the frustration of rats taking food from you and running off. I read that smearing baby food on your skin will attract them to you, but they can't just take it and run off, so they have to learn to lick it off you if they want the treat. Honey or yogurt is probably a great option. 

The reason for the long time required is that you want them to associate coming to you as a good thing. If you take them, then that can hinder the bonding process. You just have to be patient. But feel free to take them from the cage to your immersion session. You don't want to waste time, and rats can forget how terrifying it was. I can't find the post, but I remember seeing an interesting analogy (by Rat Daddy, I think). If someone wants to give you $5 million but can only give it to you in one place, he's going to try to get you to that place. You may be suspicious of the stranger, so you won't go. The guy _really_ wants to give you $5 million, so he kidnaps you forcibly and takes you to the money place. You can then forgive him his methods when you are rewarded handsomely. It's a silly analogy, but it seems fitting for rats. They won't like being picked up, but they must be picked up so you can begin bonding with them. Once you do, then they'll forgive you your method (and probably forget). 

And I try not to be in the habit of judging people I don't know, but I do question your breeder's methods. I don't deal with breeders, so maybe I'm just ignorant. You mentioned that he picks up rats by the tail, which I understand is a no-no. I've seen mice picked up by the tail, but they were feeder mice. Maybe it's not that big a deal with baby rats? I have been spooked off of tail-grabbing that I wouldn't try it. It doesn't sound like your breeder socialized with the rats any, though the pictures indicate that the rats were comfortable enough with him. I may be speaking out of turn due to my own ignorance.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You might find some useful socialization tips in my immersion thread, but you are doing the right thing by engaging them in activities with you. I'm sure they will come around very quickly.

Not that it will bother you in the least, but the rat on the left looks suspiciously like a high white.. I know there are multiple ways to get the same markings, but I'd be just a little concerned if someone is re-branding American high whites and calling them huskies.

For reference....









This is Amelia a really good example of an American high white... she and her brother were dumped into a feeder bin by her breeder... most likely they were the only two survivors.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks, Kuildeous.

The thing is, they just don't let me pet, cuddle or handle them in any way, when they're on my lap, they just run away. They are extremely skittish, really. That's the thing. How can I bond with them if they don't accept my touch, poop everywhere and hardly take treats? 

They were used to the lady breeder and she actually just picked them by their tail when she couldn't figure out any other way to do it.

Also, could you tell me what do you think of the recording and the toilet paper methods?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Holding rats by the tail and breeding high whites for fun and profit goes hand in hand... just thinking out loud.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Hey, Rad Daddy.

I read your immersion thread and many others, believe me. How long do you think it's going to take for them to trust me, if I spend at least one hour interacting with them? Also, what do you think of the methods I refered? The recording and the toilet paper, I mean.

And about the markings, I actually live in Europe, so I wouldn't know about that.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Bump.


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

No need to bump. It's only been 16 minutes. Many of us have jobs or school to tend to, so it might be hours or even days before someone sees the message. Anyone who cares to be up to date on postings will read them. 

Hmm, if the breeder only knows to pick them up by their tails, then I'm guessing she's not a good breeder…or rather she's not breeding sociable rats. Maybe she only breeds feeder rats? I am not savvy enough in rat talk to get what Rat Daddy was talking about regarding breeding high whites, but the context sounds negative toward the breeder.

I imagine the recording and toilet paper tricks couldn't hurt. I doubt that they would be effective, but I can't see how it would undo anything. Rats have a tipping point, it seems. My rats would be shy and poop on me. Then one day, it all vanished. They don't poop outside the cage, and they understand me and want to be with me. For two of my rats, it wasn't even gradual. It was sudden; oh, hey, I don't have to reach in there to grab you now; here you are. So know that even if it doesn't look like you're making progress, you actually might be.

The longer you can spend with them, the better. Bring a book with you. You'll want to engage the rats, but if they are more interested in alone time, give them that time. Read a chapter and then engage them again. Have baby food on hand so they have to eat it off your hand only when on your chest. It's only been a day, so don't expect miracles just yet. They've spent a little more time with you than the average pet store rat spends with a customer with a passing interest. Right now, you're not part of their world yet. When they realize that you are, then their attitudes toward you will change.


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## Tedology (Mar 3, 2015)

Something I did for my boys was get a t-shirt I had slept in for a few days...and one I didn't expect to get back...and placed it in their cage. This way they may associate me with a safe place...and that my smell was something not foreign.

Could be done with a sock also.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

The longer you can spend with your rats, that is they are "with" you in the bathroom may be best right now since they don't really know you and you don't want to have to chase them all over any room with lots of hiding places. That would be traumatic for everybody and would really put you back on gaining their trust. Talking to them by the cage is ok, but nothing beats or works as fast as being together. Yes, they are babies, so they want to explore their environment, they aren't really aware of you as another "being" yet, so they treat you as part of the furniture or as a scary giant. When you have them in the bathroom talk to them constantly. When they are close enough, engage them use you hand as if it were another rat and play with them. Give them treats. Like Kuildeous says something you can spread on your skin so they have to lick it off will make them stay in one place for a bit longer. If they have been picked up by their tails it really doesn't sound like they were socialized by the breeder. Picking them up that way is not recommended. They are baby animals that don't know you yet. Spend a lot of time with them, not by the cage, with them. When you can't have them out of the cage, talk to them often. Pet them, cuddle them, but be aware at this age they aren't likely to think that cuddling and being petted are much fun. Exploring the environment and you will be more what they want to do. They have lots of energy now and just don't have time to hold still while that great big world is out there to explore. Give it and them time.


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Put on an extra large fleecy hoodie and keep it closed at the bottom. Then pop the rats inside it and they will run around it and crawl on your shoulder and everywhere else. When they pop out, you can just gently pop them back inside. I would sit in the bathroom with the door closed and play with them like this for many minutes at a time


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks for the tips, guys. A recording of my voice is playing by their cage for over six hours now and I'm going to give them a few more treats. 

It's actually impossible to get them out of the cage and they don't like eating liquid things from spoons, because they are really skittish, but I guess I'm going to have to work with that. The thing that makes me sad is that a friend of mine bought a feeder rat at a petstore and in the same day they were already best friends. Well, what can you do? I'm also laying on toilet paper bits and tomorrow I'm going to put them inside their house, so they associate my smell with comfort and safety.

But, like I said, I can't really pet them or handle them, so what do you guys mean 'playing with them'? The best I can do is sit by their cage and read to them, really.


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## Tedology (Mar 3, 2015)

EsquiloHomicida said:


> Thanks for the tips, guys. A recording of my voice is playing by their cage for over six hours now and I'm going to give them a few more treats.
> 
> It's actually impossible to get them out of the cage and they don't like eating liquid things from spoons, because they are really skittish, but I guess I'm going to have to work with that. The thing that makes me sad is that a friend of mine bought a feeder rat at a petstore and in the same day they were already best friends. Well, what can you do? I'm also laying on toilet paper bits and tomorrow I'm going to put them inside their house, so they associate my smell with comfort and safety.
> 
> But, like I said, I can't really pet them or handle them, so what do you guys mean 'playing with them'? The best I can do is sit by their cage and read to them, really.


Esquilo, I completely understand where you're coming from. I heard of stories (like on here) that had rats on shoulders by day two and I wanted so badly for that to be my situation.

I had a PM conversation with Rat Daddy, since I value his opinion, and he suggested that getting to know your rat is like getting to know a new friend. We don't rush in for hugs and telling our deepest secrets... we "court"... get to know them...allow them to know us.

Once I had that mindset, it was pretty cool the transformation. I think they sensed I was more relaxed...and I felt more confident.

I think rats naturally sense stress, tension... I think they have to (instinctively)...once they see I wanted to play with them...they went from running away from the door of their cage...to now rushing up when they hear me entering my house and saying, "Hello boys!"

I'll echo Rat Daddy's advice (hopefully with his permission)... just play with them. Don't have expectations...and each day you'll find your friendship blossoming. 

And please keep us posted.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks, Thedology.

I think the breeder was really bad and fed them through the bars, because Kirk is really trying to bite me when I put my fingers inside the bars, he's trying to catch me with his little paws and all that.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

ALSO, is it normal for them to 'pulse'? I mean, I'm pretty sure that they are just breathing, but dude, it's like they are scared or something, their tummies pulse a lot.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Some of us have been working with rats for a long time and in a lot of different situations... OK so I'm the guy who reaches right into a bin of 100 feeder rats and plucks out one's I like and yes, I did a demo at PetSmart where I pulled a rat right out of the enclosure and walked him around the store on my shoulder while I answered rat questions for the staff and customers... 

But there's a secret to this trickery... I'm pretty good at reading a rats demeanor, I have a whole lot of practice... When I reached into the the rat enclosure at PetSmart one rat was curious and relaxed, he was a perfect rat to do a demonstration with... (and he most likely made a very special friend for some very lucky rat owner) There was another rat in the enclosure that would have run away, as it was nervous and another one that would have bitten me outright, because it was clearly terrified... I pulled off the demo, not because I have any kind of magic, but because I can read rats...

After a few years working with rats, you really get to know them and you can really gauge and understand their responses... sometimes us old timers forget that "new to rats" is a pretty scary place to be... I mean you don't understand rat yet, and rats have big sharp teeth and they are really fast and agile and they can really hurt you... So for the most part you are likely to be overly cautious...

Advise? Get the rats out of their cage and into an immersion space with you, let them roam around and explore a few minutes until they get a little comfortable, then engage them... treats, talking, play, gentle pokes and touches... let them respond to you... even if it's only pooping and running away at first. Try to be as confident as you can and as courage permits scoop them up and let them climb off or even onto you... Just keep gauging their responses and try to reply to their needs as best as you can... your rats will get what you are doing and you will just instinctively begin to understand them and you will start trusting each other.

Why do I use the term play? Because it shouldn't be work, treat it as a process and an adventure... Socialization is supposed to be fun and something you enjoy doing, not a process to be endured or overcome... You are making new best friends for life, this is a great time!

If you are really afraid, wear gloves and cover yourself with a blanket... rats are smart they won't be fooled... They know it's you inside the gloves... But the worst thing you can do with your rats is nothing... do nothing and nothing improves, in fact things can get worse.

As to the recordings and the smell ideas, I doubt they do any harm, but I generally recommend dancing under the moonlight naked as an all purpose confidence building ritual.. works for intros, potty training, socialization and might be a great way to wind up a particularly good date... if not, it's a way to build better relations with your neighbors... maybe?

Seriously, you are dealing with some super intelligent animals from the second most successful species on earth and they are social animals and most likely really want to bond with you and be your friend... it's a matter of meaningful communication not trying to fool them into liking you because their cage smells like your armpits or that you can mimic noises made by a machine...

When we took Fuzzy Rat out, experienced rat owners would always sneak up from behind us and swipe our rat off our shoulders to play with, (oddly that joke never got old) one look and any experienced rat owner knew she was sweet and friendly, still it was just a little bit unnerving having people just grab your rat from behind. Sure we usually socialize most of our rats half way on the ride home in the car, but we pick the right rats to start with... then we're pretty good at understanding rat so yes we're usually carrying a new rat around on shoulder the same day we adopt her... but no one really expects a new to rats owner to do that, that's what immersion is for, it's a process for both the human and the rat to learn to communicate and bond. Don't worry about how long it takes, as long as you aren't getting bitten, just have fun with the process. 

Best luck.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

> But, like I said, I can't really pet them or handle them, so what do you guys mean 'playing with them'? The best I can do is sit by their cage and read to them, really.


I am afraid I don't understand this. I never had a pet - dog, cat, parakeet, hamster, snake, gerbil, or rat that I couldn't pick up and take to the bathroom on day 1. Yes, sometimes it was a short chase to accomplish this, but you have to pick up the animal to move forward from here. I did have two little girls (rats) that were so frightened that they hid in a tissue box in their cage with tissues stuffed in the opening, they were about 3 -4 months old and I just took the tissue box into the bathroom and talked to it til they got curious and poked a nose through the tissue plug. Then I put my finger near the nose let them sniff it and started lightly petting the nose til a head came out the hole. It took a while, but even these two frightened abused girls warmed up to me, but it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gotten them out of the cage. Are you afraid of being bitten? You can use gloves - heavy work gloves, oven mitts or whatever gives you confidence. Is the cage so large that you can't catch them? Can you block off part of the cage to make it easier? What exactly is the reason you can't handle or pet them?

If you can manage to get them into the bathroom with you, then you can let them run around a bit. Make sure the bathroom is escape proof. If doors don't seal well stuff towels under them. Make sure they can't get into the wall behind the toilet, or get into cupboards from the baseboards. Then, settle down for as long as you can manage. Let them run around a bit and explore. When they are near enough reach out your hand to them and let them sniff it. If they run away wait til they come close again. When they aren't afraid of your hand pet them, poke them, tickle them - just engage with them. Talk to them a lot. I am not a fan of a recording of your voice, but something with your scent on it in the cage can't hurt.


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## Tao.and.Laughter (Jan 24, 2015)

I'd like to make a suggestion, if I could - Could you possibly take a dishtowel or something to that effect, and sleep with that inside of your shirt at night, and tuck that into their little house instead of the toilet paper? I feel like that would hold your scent a great deal longer than tissue would.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

Honestly, unless you force socialization on them, it's probably not going to happen, especially if you're constantly keeping cage bars between you and them. Think of you sitting there talking to them as being like someone sitting there speaking to you in a language you don't understand all day; you're probably not going to be best friends with that person or even like them much since they're not considering your method of communication. Since we can't speak rat, we have to find other ways of communicating that we're not the enemy. Sometimes this means you need to take them out of the cage regardless of how much they object and sit with them in a small place so that they can not only get used to your smell and size, but also the way you move while you're around them. Sitting with them in a bathtub is a really good first start since they can't escape and it forces them to see that you're not a giant monster. You will begin to notice more differences in the demeanor of your rats and how they will respond to you and you should adapt accordingly, but don't just give up because you think one is shy; try different methods of approaching them instead.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Okay, guys. First of all, thank you very much.

I can't pick them up, because their cage is pretty big and has tons of hideouts, besides, when I corner them, they just go all Spider-Man on the bars and slide away from me. The only way I got them out was by luring them inside a toilet paper roll or a box and that took me 20 minutes.

They are a little better now that they associate me with treats, when they hear my voice, they actually come to me. They've been hearing the recording for the whole day now, but I think I'm going to stop, since many of you advised me to. 

I can't really pet them because, again, when I approach them with my finger, and I'm doing it really gently, they push their heads back like I'm about to punch them, they are always really cautious around my finger.

So, what I want to know, really, is that if it is okay for me to actually chase them around, grab them or whatever, and basically stress them, and then give them lots of attention, treats and stuff. AND, should I do it with one rat at a time or it's better not to separate them? Because I'm scared they are just going to be even more terrified of me. I mean, they are terrified even when I pick them with the scooping method, for Christ's sake


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Also, can anyone break down the difference between immersion training, trust training, forced socialization, etc for me? Because they all just sound the same to me, really, the thing is that immersion sounds a little bit more aggressive and from what I heard, sometimes it actually makes the rats even more skittish.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I might be mistaken, but as I understand it:

Force Socialization = You grab rat. You hold rat for at least 20 minutes no matter how it struggles. 

Trust training = You take rat to a neutral area away from the cage. You allow rat to explore while you pet, touch, talk to, interact with it for at least 20 minutes - 30 minutes to an hour preferred. Then put rat back in cage and repeat tomorrow. Keep repeating til you and rat establish relationship.

Immersion training = You take rat to a neutral area away from the cage. You allow rat to explore while you pet, touch, talk to, interact with it - ideally for as long as it takes for you and rat to establish a relationship and communication. 

Of course, this is an extreme oversimplification of each process, and you might want to read some of the threads dealing with trust training and immersion here for more and better information on the whole process. I didn't find a lot of info on forced socialization.

I do not know how many Forced Socialization sessions are required.
Trust training may take 1 - 3 weeks or longer depending on the animal. I had a wild caught parrot take 6 weeks. I never had a rat take more than 2 weeks.
Immersion training takes fewer, longer sessions than trust training - ideally 1 session. I only read about it here. I haven't yet had opportunity to use it.

I am sure better informed more knowledgeable people here will also try to help you understand.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't really follow any of these techniques exactly the way they're explained. I pick up my rats (no matter how new, scared, frantic they are) and hold them securely and close to my body as I carry them to the bathroom. I'll then place them in my lap and take my hands away. The rest is pretty much up to them. I'll sit with them for about an hour at a time until they eventually learn to come when I call and tap the floor (this takes many sessions), and then they are transitioned to free range in my office which is a much larger area and I have to rely on the fact that they'll come when called. Take treats and some small toys into the bathroom and pretty much just let them do their thing; you'll be surprised at how quickly they warm up to you when it's THEIR choice to be near you. Of course, there's always the case of the rat who wants to just hide in the corner which will take a bit more forceful (but also gentle) socialization. I typically get an oversized shirt or sweater and stick them inside of it while I'm wearing it. No matter how horribly my relationships with my rats seem to start, they always come around, so just be persistent and patient.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Which one do you guys recommend for skittish baby rats who are afraid of getting pet, but love treats? Is immersion the most effective one?


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## Vegn (Jan 2, 2014)

I've always done a sorta force/immersion mix. I've never gotten terrified rats but you just have to handle them. You catch them no matter what, use both hands and a hand towel. Get them on one level, then block it off, make hideaways inaccessible. Put them with you in a bathtub if they run, or bring one at a time out, and have themin a big towel on your lap in like a chair. Let them hide in the towel, but keep your hand under there with them.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Guys, tell me one thing: is it normal for rats to wrestle/fight A LOT? Spock is reaaaaaaally small and Kirk chases him around, grabs him, bites him, punches him, it's like it's bullying him, really. Spock squeaks a lot. As far as I know, they were from the same litter, but my breeder is clearly a bad one, I can see that now. Spocks fights back too, sometimes he's the one that starts, actually. I heard they love wrestling and that squeaking is their way of saying 'hey, you're hurting me' and they also sleep on each other all the time, like they really love each other, so I don't interfere, but I don't know, they just do it all the time and I'm starting to get worried. 

ALSO, tomorrow I'm going to try spending like 8 hours in an immersion session with them, I don't know. Let's see how it works.


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## Vegn (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm not very experienced in long straight up immersion sessions, so IDK much about them but make sure they have at least water. The wrestling sounds completely normal to me, just them settling some disputes. If it was absolutely constant and there was damage, they didn't cuddle, or one went way out of his way to avoid the other, then you'd have a bigger problem.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I would have to say that Trust Training or Immersion whichever you feel better with time wise would be best. Both are actually very gentle, though immersion is longer per session. I think anyone who says immersion makes a skittish rat worse is mistaking it for Forced Socialization.

As long as no blood is shed, fighting like you describe is normal. If you have ever seen puppies or kittens play fight, that is about what is happening. If you see blood, then there is likely a problem.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Hey, guys.


I just did a 5 hour immersion training session with Spock, my most skittish rat. I did it in a bathtub. It took me more than 1 hour so he could accept a treat and he didn't always accept it anyway. He spent the entire time looking up, like trying to figure out how to escape. I could make him stop still a few times, pet him, he actually slept over me 6 or 7 times, but what he wanted to do the most was climb all over me. Not to have fun, I think, but to run away. I don't know if it worked, I felt like he is a little less scared, he kinda lets me scoop him or pet him while he eats, but he is still really skittish and he never comes to me, I have to go to him.


I'm going to do another 5 hour session, now with Kirk. Then, the two at the same time.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

At the risk of sounding immodest, I developed immersion based on the theory that rats: 

1)are intelligent learning animals 
2)are social animals
3)are capable of communicating and understanding
4)have a capacity to form permanent emotional bonds
5)don't draw a major distinction between their relationships with other rats and humans. In other words they can and will, up to a point, see you as another rat, or rather rat-like similar to themselves... So when done well they will see you as part of their pack or themselves as part of your family.
Also...
6)Humans have the capacity to fundamentally bond with their rats and given some practice learn to understand and communicate with them..
7)Communication and bonding is bi-directional.

I'm not suggesting that "rat whisperers" didn't know this all along, just that I compiled the theory and worked up a methodology that less experienced rat owners could understand and work from. Anyone who gets it can become a rat whisperer, socialize their rats and fix most social problems in their combined rat/human families.

Although some of the techniques overlap between methods, and every person and rat does immersion differently, the process is guided by principles not cook book steps like other methods. Immersion respects the rat as a participant in the process so immersion is a dance not a march. So while 10 people do immersion slightly differently they all achieve very good results.

Certain advocates of behavior modification have taken issue with immersion. They view rats as stimulus response organisms. And pretty much their philosophy is incompatible with immersion. There are entire web sites and boards dedicated to behavior modification rat training and despite a very vocal opposition the clockwork orange crowd have yet to post a single case of a rat being harmed by immersion and very few examples where they have actually fixed a problem rat without neutering or spaying it... 

An actual Administrator from a rat runner board posted their best arguments against immersion in the guide, they are there for everyone to read along with my responses. Anyone can read them and go to the clockwork orange web sites and search their threads for their actual results and form their own opinions. I was a psychology major back in the 1970's and early 1980's, at the time behavior modification was the big thing. Although some of the techniques might be useful in teaching a rat to jump when a light goes on, so it doesn't get zapped by and electrical stimulus or teaching a rat certain tricks, it doesn't create emotional bonds between humans and their rats and it doesn't fix social behavioral issues...

I'm not saying that certain behavioral modification techniques don't work, but that they are limited by their philosophy... there's nothing wrong with giving your rat a treat when he or she is good or does something sweet to show your rat you approve, but you can't buy love by acting like a vending machine... Still, as behavior modification and it's illegitimate stepchild P.R.O. sunsets as a socialization technique, we are likely to hear more from those folks still clinging on to it... Reputations are at stake and some folks tend to get loud when they find themselves on a sinking ship.

Still my own bias aside, standard immersion is a gentle process and it's fun and rewarding. Most people have had great results, but everyone should feel free to do their own research and form their own opinion. Or just try immersion and see the results for themselves.

Best luck and have fun with whatever method you do.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Do you think it's okay to do it in a bathtub?

Here are some pictures of our session, this was like 4 hours after we began: http://imgur.com/a/AENBg


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our posts crossed and yes, you have made some progress. In a space as small as a bath tub you are working against your rats natural tendency to explore and run around... Young rats have lots of energy to burn off and a tub provides dearly little space. 

Taking treats from you is a good sign, but the most telling sign is that he slept on you! Imagine sleeping on someone you are afraid of or mad at, you wouldn't do it. Rats sleep together as a sign of bonding and to share themselves emotionally, kind of like humans do...

Don't confuse your rats natural curiosity about what's beyond the bath tub with a desire to escape you. My rats free range the house, and sometimes they come and say hi and snuggle and sometimes they stop by for treats or food but most of the time they roam around, explore build nests or just sleep in a cabinet... When you move into a larger space and out of the tub you should see more of a boomerang behavior... they will run around and explore and then boomerang back to you... keep in mind they can't come to you if they can't get away from you... 

Napping on you is a definite sign of trust and affection while wanting to explore the environment is just what rats do. When you feel your rat is calm and controllable enough, walk them around the room and the house a bit, explore together... rats like that.

You are doing great keep it up.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks, Rat Daddy, I really appreciate that. 

I don't know if Kirk is going to be harder, because he is actually braver, but seems full of energy and all that. 

Can you do other stuff while you're at immersion? Because I spent 5 hours completely focused on Spock, but I actually have a few things I have to do on the computer, I was wondering if it would hurt if I just left him running around and sniffing me while I do it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I just saw the photos... they are super! Your rat looks relaxed and comfortable with you, skritch him gently, pet him reward him and if he's relaxed and you have a safe floor to play with him on take him out of the tub and get yourself a little more room to play... or just show him around the house a bit as you feel comfortable.

And yes he's communicating trust and he's bonding with you... that's exactly what immersion should look like.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

The pictures of him sleeping are ridiculously adorable. But more to the point, the fact that he's sleeping on you shows that he's not afraid of you. Grooming and sleeping are not things that a rat that's scared for its life would do, so keep it up and I think you'll see amazing results with these little guys.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

The thing that preoccupied me is that people say they can't experience fear for more than 20 minutes, but he actually was scared of me for hours, it took a really long time for him to hold still on my lap, and I kind of had to force him a few times. I tried tickling his tummy, I saw someone doing that during immersion, but he doesn't seem to like it very much.

How many sessions/days/weeks do you think it takes to tame a super skittish baby rat like this? If I keep doing immersion everyday, I mean.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, I'd prefer you kept your focus on Kirk, you doing something else while Kirk does his own thing isn't very interesting for him and it isn't promoting any interaction. Once you have established a bond, naturally you are going to do your own thing while your rats do theirs. I'm typing to you right now while my rat is napping in the other room... My rats often wait for the sound of silence, no typing and no TV then come to say hi... Basically over time they have learned when I'm busy and keep themselves occupied. But just for now as this is a critical stage in the bonding process keep focused on your rats... Think of some first date you've had with someone who was on their cell phone the whole time... They may not have intended to disrespect you, but I doubt there was another date. If someone is really into you, they should make you the priority.. humans and rats have feelings and they understand being ignored.

That doesn't mean you can't stop for a water or potty break just keep focused on the task at hand and on your new friend.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our posts keep crossing. It will happen quicker than you think, you have already made a great deal of progress. It's taking longer because you are being gentle and your rats may have a history of abuse or neglect. Being a little more assertive can speed up the process to a point, you don't want to be overwhelming or intimidating, but rats are in your face kind of animals and they expect you to be the same too... Rats don't do subtle.

When a rat submits to a superior rat or human it rolls over and presents its tummy for skritches or grooming, your not really doing that kind of immersion where you are fixing a screwed up aggressive rat so you may not necessarily get a surrender or submission. But you don't force it. The rat will flip onto its back on it's own and then you love the heck out of it to show you accept it's surrender and that you love him and that you accept him as part of your family... It's a very important event for a rat so if and when it happens you really show love and make a huge deal over it. But it's up to the rat to offer... not something you do with force. And in normal friendly immersions you're just as likely to get your rat to nap on you to show it's love as you are to get a rat flipping over in submission.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

I understand.

I'm with Kirk, he keeps hiding himself behind me, haha.

This one is going to be an even bigger challenge.


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## Tedology (Mar 3, 2015)

Those pictures are great, Esquilo!  I'd melt if my rats actually SLEPT on me! LOL...

They do "boomerang" (using RD's word) when I play with them in my bathroom. I moved from the tub to the bathroom and the boys do like exploring...but they also come to me and check me out...but perhaps it's to say "Hello" and keeping track that I'm still there and haven't left. Not sure which.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Remember, think first date... this isn't work.... so have fun. The more fun you have the more Kirk will enjoy the session too.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

My first two rats were Xena and Aphrodite. Xena always wanted to explore everything. She always came when called, because if she came when called she got a treat. But she would take her treat and cuddle for a moment then typically say "Mom, love ya, but I got sploring to do." and be off again. Aphrodite almost immediately we sat down together would take her treat, eat it and head back for the cage. If I called her, she would look at me, look at the cage calculate which was closer and only if I were closer would she come back for another treat, otherwise, it was back to the cage. I never really had a rat that wanted to sit still for much cuddling and petting. Didn't mean that they didn't love me. They just tended to have other places to be a lot of the time.


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## WheelRunner (Mar 21, 2015)

i have had my two rattys for a little over two weeks. I have made a point to play with them everyday since I got them, and with one at the vet now I spend even more time with the remaining one. My short experience is that they were skittish for at least the first five days or so, then they seemed to relax to being handled. This is also confirmed by the fact the quit pooping all over me when i picked them up. 

The ratty that i have right now is highly spastic and loves to play, but can be worn down if played out enough and likes to be petted asleep. She still takes food and runs back to the cage and hides or eats it there. Patience is key I found, and confidence. Read up, lots of great info here.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats steal food from each other all of the time and then they run away and eat it somewhere safe. For most rats, they don't necessarily have the concept of "give" in their vocabulary... In their mind they are stealing food from you. And therefore they have to run away with it and eat it elsewhere... Sure they think you are an easy mark and easily convinced to show them your food, but then they steal it and run off... just to be certain you don't steal it back like any other rat would.

Many people tend to think that running off with food means their rat doesn't trust them... this is definitely not the case. Yes, I'm pretty certain that some rats do get the idea of "giving" but it isn't native to their experience... rats steal from each other and from other animals and humans... in general they don't give and they aren't given anything... 

I've found that there are certain concepts that simply don't translate easily into rat language and thought. Rats are very smart and they can learn concepts that aren't native to their intelligence, but for the most part commands like stay or concepts like give are difficult for some rats to master. Fuzzy Rat was brilliant for a rat and she learned many words for things very quickly and she mastered many concepts almost intuitively... but there were some things that she had trouble with... she was well over a year old before she got "stay" and it happened when I used the command at the same time I pointed to the place she was at... she did understand pointing. If I pointed at the food dish she would go check out if I put food there for example... even Cloud understands pointing. So finally she associated "stay" with pointing to the place she was at... but that took a very long time for a very smart rat to comprehend.

So you know you are giving your rat a treat, but odds are your rat is going to scurry off with it all proud of her or him self for having ripped you off again. Don't take it personal.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

So, I just did a 2 hour session with Kirk. I know, I did 5 hours with Spock, but I was REALLY sleepy, I almost slept on him.

Kirk is more confident than Spock, so he let me pet him after 40 minutes or so. He didn't relly sleep on me, but he looked calm. I walked around the house with him on my arm/shoulder and he seemed to like it.

Here are some pics: http://imgur.com/a/Gf9sl

I think I'm going to do a session with the two of them next.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Did a 1 hour session with the two of them today. They were hiding and trying to get through the door a lot. Kirk is really scared of being picked up, Spock doesn't like it that much, but he isn't scared to death.

I'm going to keep you guys posted about the taming process, if you don't mind.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's hard to tell the difference between scared and a natural desire to see what's on the other side of the door, but it sounds like you are working in a bigger area and that can be scary for rats that have lived their whole lives in a cage... Working with two rats means you're just a little bit less one on one so it's usually a little bit more out of control. There's a difference between rats being generally afraid of a new situation and being afraid of you. Either way keep reassuring them and engaging them.. a good sign is if they come to you when they are scared. Some rats take a while to get used to being picked up, which is also normal, in their experience bad things happen when humans pick them up... Just recently someone picked them up and they were taken away from their home and family, this can take a bit of time to get over... They have to learn that being picked up is a good thing.

Certainly we love to read along with your adventures and will help where we can... but keep in mind this is socializing not just taming. Your not just trying to make your rats docile, you are building a relationship and a social structure. Soon you will be teaching your rats their names and commands and potty training them... that's a long way from just being tame.

Overall, it sounds like you are doing fine just keep trying different things and experimenting with ways to understand your rats and get them to understand you... Just remember to try and have fun doing it, if it's fun for you, it will be more fun for your rats too.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

The breeder definitely fed them through the bars.

I'm starting to hate that woman. Kirk (more than Spock) kind of bites me every time I put my finger inside the bars to pet him, perhaps because he thinks I'm food. He mostly nibbles, but today he tried to really bite me 4 or 5 times. I have NO lucky whatsover, Jesus. 

I spent entire weeks researching for rats, trying to find a good breeder, and when I happen to buy two rats and a really expensive cage for them to be happy, I get two extremely skittish rats who are starting to bite me.

Honestly, I'm feeling really sad. I see all these pics of this one girl on my facebook who has only one feeder rat who grew to love her in less than three hours. I spent more than 8 hours with mine total and they still see me as a gigantic threat. I know it will take lots of patience and time, but I feel like my case is rare, like i'm helpless, because all these people have curious, fun, loving and inquisitive rats from the start. 

And it's not that I don't have fun with them, because I really do, I baby-talk with them all the time and give them all kinds of treats, crackers, cereals, yogurt, fruits, veggies, everything, and they just come to me for food. Maybe it's just because they're babies, I don't know, but this girl's rat is also only a little older than 1 month. Am I going to have to wait until they are grown up for them to stop being so afraid of me and actually liking me?

I hope you guys don't think less of me because of this, but man, I'm feeling down.


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

Rats have different personalities. Some might impress within a week. Others might take months. You may have a bad combination of improper handling and stubborn rats. Just love them and keep on reaching out to them. I'm sure they'll come round. 

One of my rats has been with us for 3 months. She'll lick our fingers when we approach the cage. She sometimes lets me scritch her ears. Sometimes she'll be in a rare mood where she wants to hop up on our arm. But when I pull her out of the cage, her first thought is how to get back into the cage. The other rats are much friendlier. 

I don't think your case is hopeless. You may just need longer time.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

When I was working with my Parrot (the one that took 6 weeks) some days the session would end with me scratching all around his head and him just eating it up. Then the next day he acted like he had never seen me before. I was extremely discouraged many times, but we eventually became best buds. Just keep it up. Even on days when you don't seem to be making progress, you really are. Remember, it hasn't even been a week yet, and you are overcoming some bad memories for them and creating a whole new reality for them in which humans are nice trustworthy sorts.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

I know that, guys, but thanks anyway. It's just that I had guinea pigs for a long time, did everything right, and they were still skittish years later. I know that rats are not like that, but I just feel afraid to go through the same thing again, you know?


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I understand the fear and feeling discouraged, but just want you to know that you need to give it more time. Yes, it is possible that for whatever reasons your rats don't warm up to you the way you hope, but by spending time with them every day, you reduce the chance of this. Remember, it hasn't been a week yet. 1-3 weeks is really average, some rats may take longer. Reassess your situation after two weeks with your new babies, then again, if necessary at two week intervals. But do try to relax and enjoy the journey. The more relaxed you are, the more relaxed they will be and the more fun it will be for all three of you.


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## spysquid (Aug 23, 2014)

I think a big part of it is that they're babies. I got two 2 year old male rats first and they warmed up to me right away, but my second pair of boys are totally different and were frustratingly skittish and still kind of are (with noises). One of my girls warmed up to me within a couple weeks while her sister took months (they were 6 mo old when I got them and now I've had them a year and the shy one is super sweet and very attentive where before we thought she would never like us.)

1 thing that I found helpful- Instead of trying to pick them up, maybe try getting a sweater with big sleeves and holding the opening up to them. All my rats would crawl into the sleeve before they would let me pick them up or crawl into me. It then gives you a chance to walk around and do stuff while they're exploring your sweater 

Ps I have a single baby girl I'm adding to my mischief and so I feel your pain with the slowness of trust training. My girl will be hot and cold so I think I make all this progress then the next day it's like it never happened and I'm a scary monster again XP it doesn't help she doesn't have a friend (yet) to help her be braver. 

Good luck and keep us posted! Don't lose hope!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

No one can really promise you that any rat will become a cuddle bug, but well and for the most part they will become real friends. Basically just trust in the process, and the basic social nature of rats. you've already had one rat nap on you, just keep engaging them and have fun and let nature take it's course.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Honestly, guys, I'm starting to get scared.


Kirk nibbles a lot because he thinks I'm food, even though I only feed them after I open the cage, never through the bars. And I used a stick today to kind of push him away from Spock, because he was about to steal his treat and Kirk kind of attacked the stick. And everytime I try to pet him, he bends his head like he is about to grab lunch. Kirk is huge now and his teeth are really sharp. I'm REALLY scared to get bitten.

Also, he has this look... this empty look. I know it's stupid, but ****, he looks like rat Norman Bates, I'm really scared. Spock is so innocent, small and sweet, I feel bad for him, he squeaks 24/7.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm doing immersion with Kirk right now and when he doesn't behave I power groom his belly, but he starts squeaking like Spock and I stop, afraid of hurting him.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When you groom a rat's belly it's generally to reward his behavior.. I'm not sure that's what you are trying to communicate. Yes a dominant rat does belly groom an inferior rat to reward him for submitting, but that's only after the fight is over. Think about the message you are sending and how Kirk may understand what you are telling him.

When a rat does something wrong.... a loud "NO" or a gentle bop is usually all it takes to correct him.

Rats nibble, I had one rat that could remove my skin layer by layer without ever drawing blood. That's the way she groomed me... and one day I wasn't paying attention and she neatly removed a patch of skin without it even hurting... it was noticeable because she got deep enough to make the spot look lighter then the rest of my arm that was tanned. Don't discourage nibbling until it actually starts to hurt, you want to encourage your rat to groom you at the same time you discourage biting.

Yes, I know there are some folks that still believe that power grooming is a way to try and get your rat to submit... but I've seen the behavior often enough to be relatively certain that it's a reward.... I've never seen it until the fight was over and in every case it was voluntary by the submitting rat. To clarify I'll add a little story...

Fuzzy Rat was a large bred for meat rat at about 21 oz she was larger than most male rats, but her roommate Amelia was a whole lot bigger at nearly a foot long. And Amelia was a year younger and not fat... Still Fuzzy Rat would sneak up on Amelia and steal her food... By all rights this wasn't just dangerous, but outright suicidal behavior.... But keep in mind Fuzzy Rat was brilliant and Amelia was just rat of normal intelligence... So as soon as Amelia would catch up with Fuzzy Rat, Fuzzy Rat would flip over onto her back and Amelia would pause and start grooming Fuzzy Rat's belly.... Why? Because it's what rats are programmed to do... When another rat submits, the dominant rat grooms their belly. Then after a minute or so, Fuzzy Rat would flip back over pick up the food she had stolen and just walk off with it leaving Amelia standing there all confused. I of course was on the floor LAMO. And it never got old to watch Fuzzy Rat play Amelia like this... 

Fuzzy Rat got Amelia's treat and she got rewarded for it... now that's a clever rat. Fuzzy Rat took advantage of the way Amelia understood communication to rip her off... But the point I'm making is that belly grooming wasn't uncomfortable or some sort of dominance behavior, rather it was a reward for being submissive. 

I realize this misconception goes way back, that one rat powergrooms another into submission, it's one of those myths that goes way back and it persists, but trust me folks Fuzzy Rat only ever lost one fight and that was to our part wild rat and that's when she had our part wild rat's teeth wrapped around her trachea. She never made that mistake again and outsmarted her opponents after that. She used every trick to get her way with other rats and even people, she was sweet and charming to the point of being charismatic, but don't ever think she was submissive to anyone... She was always friendliest and sweetest when she was playing you.

Submission is offered and then accepted, when rats fight they fight.

But remember, not all mouth contact is aggressive, it can be grooming and not all fighting is real either. Young rats playfight. Our part wild rat would jump up into my fact and lay a dozen bites on my nose and face before I could swat her off, but there was no blood and no pain... attacking my face, nose, mouth and even eyes was her way of playing... and yes the first time she did it, I expected to see my face covered in blood when I looked in the mirror, but there was hardly a mark from the attack. When some rats playfight they look very serious, they fluff their hair and posture and charge and snap but there's no blood and no pain... once you know it's only a game, playfight back, like you would with a puppy or a dog playing tug of war. My dogs would tug the toy and growl and snarl and shake their heads, but if I let go they would bring the toy right back to me to do it again. Young rats love a good play fight.

Best luck.


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## Anon131234234 (Mar 27, 2015)

Kirk looks really sad. He sleeps/lies down the entire day, like he is depressed. I'm afraid I hurt him while I was power grooming him and he got traumatized or something. He hardly accept my treats. He lets me pet him now, but like he is scared to do anything else. He went from a scary rat to a emotionally destroyed rat. What can I do?

Spock is really confident. He comes for treats, feels more comfortable around me (he is still skittish and scared of being petted, though).

Suggestions?


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## Tedology (Mar 3, 2015)

Esquilo, please take no offense to what I'm about to say...as it is with good intentions. 

Please try to relax. Just try to go on THEIR timetable, not yours. Kirk just may need some time to adjust. He will. You can see this with Spock. "Feels more comfortable". Kirk will too. Or perhaps he'll be your stand-off rat.

Case in point: I have Oliver and Barry. Their cage is near my computer. When I say, "Hey boys..." Oliver comes rushing up to the cage door and looks at me...greeting me. Barry stays to the back. I open the door and Oliver allows me to pet him and scruff him affectionately. Barry doesn't. Of course, when I give Oliver a treat... Barry realizes what he's missing and THEN I'm his BFF....for a TIME. LOL! Once he has the treat, he wants nothing to do with me.  But I realize with time he'll equate "Guy who gives me treat = guy who won't hurt me." 

Just like some people, rats could be shier than others. For now, I'll enjoy Ollie and if/when Barry comes around, that's great, too. 

So kick back with Spock...play with him if/when you can. Talk to Kirk gently... and still focus on Spock. Rats learn from each other. Kirk will see that Spock is not being mistreated possibly and come to you if/when he's ready.

But most importantly... relax. Rats sense tension.


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## Vegn (Jan 2, 2014)

+1 I was going to say, just relax. It's been less than a week. They are babies. They came from a bad situation, try trust training with the less friendly one. Use something like peanut butter on your finger, they'll learn to lick it off not grab for a treat. Might hurt a bit the first couple of times, they bite first and try to drag your finger with them but once they realize they cant take it, they lick and learn that licking is good, then they sniff fingers, and lick whenever you put your fingers in the cage. Takes some time but well worth it.


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## Tedology (Mar 3, 2015)

Vegn said:


> +1 I was going to say, just relax. It's been less than a week. They are babies. They came from a bad situation, try trust training with the less friendly one. Use something like peanut butter on your finger, they'll learn to lick it off not grab for a treat. Might hurt a bit the first couple of times, they bite first and try to drag your finger with them but once they realize they cant take it, they lick and learn that licking is good, then they sniff fingers, and lick whenever you put your fingers in the cage. Takes some time but well worth it.


I really like the idea of peanut butter. I've also heard doing this with a spoon (if you fear biting) or yogurt.

I've learned that if I come across confident, the rats feel more relaxed. They feel as if I'm "one of them" and "belong to their 'pack'".

That may sound silly.


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## Vegn (Jan 2, 2014)

But using a spoon won't do much next time you put your fingers in the cage


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Both Kirk and Spock are confused, they really don't understand you yet and you don't necessarily understand them yet either. Kirk is trying to modify his behavior to adapt to and please you... this is normal.... And you are trying to find ways to communicate with them... again normal...

After years of working with rats, I'm pretty quick on picking up what a rat is saying, but I still get it wrong sometimes too... it's part of the learning curve.

Some years ago, I lived on a farm and worked with a fellow who didn't speak the same languages I did, there were mis-communications but for the most part we worked them out. Just keep trying and watching.... It's engage, observe the reply and then try to respond appropriately until you guys get each other. 

Don't get hung up on things that don't go perfectly right... just keep on goal.


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