# Opinions on dog sport "Barn Hunt" using rats as live bait?



## Finnebon

There's a popular nosework type dog sport that's gaining more popularity recently called Barn Hunt. Rats are put in a metal tube with air holes and hidden amongst hay bales and a dog with the appropriate prey drive/searching instinct has to find the rats. It's great for exercising dog's minds, is fun, and many dogs who were originally bred for the purpose of vermin hunting are able to safely exercise their skills and work at the job they were meant to. But all breeds and mixed breeds love it too if they have the instinct for it.

Seeing as most people think of rats as vermin, they feel the rats are completely safe and sane during this activity and all protection necessary is well met. On organization websites they say they keep the rats safe, and in the metal tube I do believe they are mostly safe and unable to be nipped through the small holes, but they describe the rats as being "beloved family pets who eagerly and happily go into the metal tubes and truly enjoy interacting with the dogs" who are probably barking and pawing, and knocking about the tube or trying to dig the tube out from the bales once they find it. I feel this is very stressful for the rats and I highly doubt most of these rats are as loved as they claim to be, or cared for on the same level as the dogs or the people give on Rat Forum. Most of these rats are probably just fed, watered, cleaned and maintained for the sport and are easily replaceable. (which arguably is better than what a lot of rats get) I wonder how hot it gets in the tubes as well and how full of poop and pee it is as they walk around inside since rats tend to eliminate when stressed or put in odd situations.

I know some people who participate in this, and I just feel very uncomfortable thinking about the stress of a dog finding the tube and being trapped inside while a dog barks and paws. I certainly don't believe for one second that the rats "enjoy interacting with the dogs" as the websites suggest. I'm glad the rats are in metal tubes that keep them mostly safe, but it can't be good for their stress or mental state, and I worry about the care their owners give them in between events since they're used as bait and tools for the events, they might not get appropriate care as if they were a loved pet.

As rat lovers, what are your opinions on this sport?


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## Fu-Inle

Well I don't believe they are "loved family pets" for a second. More like they are some random rats bred for the sport or bought from feeder breeders. Can you imagine some guy going up to his daughter and saying "Hey sweetie, can I borrow Oreo and Muffin real quick" Yeah, I doubt it.


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## moonkissed

I know some breeders who do it and/or sold rats for it.

They say it is safe, nonstressful, and the rats are loved and well cared for. 

I imagine that as with anything there are good people and bad. People who do care about the rats and those who don't treat them well.

Personally I do not like it at all. I have 2 dogs myself. I love dogs, I love working dogs. But I don't see the point in using live animals at all. if it is just about tracking/finding they could use scented items, animal fur, or even just used rat bedding would still have the rat scent. Why put animals in the situation?
I do not for a single second believe that the rats being hunted are not stressed by that energy. They may be perfectly safe and not able to be harmed physically but I still feel they dogs trying to get them would stress them out.


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## Gribouilli

Sounds cruel to me too. I really doubt that it is stress-free for the rats. They are most likely saying that they are loved pet rats to look good, and stop people from objecting to it.


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## Finnebon

Moonkissed, I feel exactly the same way. I know the rats are physically safe mostly, but I don't like it and I'm sure the babies are thoroughly stressed during the whole thing. I like working dogs too, and plan to do different dog sports in the future but I don't approve of and won't participate in barn hunts. I thought sheep herding might be fun, but I've seen some dogs be very rough with the sheep. It was more hunting and attack biting causing big bloody wounds to the sheep. I've been nipped by a cattle dog trying to herd me from behind once without me noticing, and it left a fat bruise and welt and hurt a lot for a long while. I can only imagine a dog would have less restraint when biting at sheep and I won't participate in that either. There are lots of other fun, stimulating activities for dogs without harming or stressing other animals.

Fu-Inle, that's what I thought too. I'm sure there are loved ones and ones used just as tools that are kept alive only while it's still convenient before being replaced. I'm sure there are good rat owners who try to care for them, but I'm sure most aren't treated with as much respect and concern.


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## Kelsbels

This American Life actually reported on something like this happening in NYC. There's a group of terrier owners who like to hunt wild rats in the city, and these rats get killed. It was a difficult episode to listen to.

So in a way this sounds a little better, but I still feel like it's still cruel to the rats.


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## Fu-Inle

Honestly, while it is a good thing, I'm suprised they care enough about the rat to atleast put it in a metal pipe first. We live in a world were its perfectly acceptable to treat a rat, a mammal, like an insect. Maybe people are begining to realise rats deserve to be treated a little better than a cockroach.


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## Finnebon

Yeah, it's kind of a difficult situation. They're not getting physically attacked, and they're not getting killed, but it's also still cruel to the rat in its own way. I mean, most dogs like to chase and try to kill cats and squirrels, but they aren't using kittens in the metal tubes when shelters are filled with them. The kittens could easily be purchased like rats, and would be a "loved family member" like they say the rats are too.

The whole thing just doesn't sit right with me I guess, but I do realize it could be much worse.


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## DamselChum

Kelsbels said:


> This American Life actually reported on something like this happening in NYC. There's a group of terrier owners who like to hunt wild rats in the city, and these rats get killed. It was a difficult episode to listen to.
> 
> So in a way this sounds a little better, but I still feel like it's still cruel to the rats.


What TAL was talking about is NOTHING like a sanctioned barn hunt. 

The TAL story was about using working terriers for pest control. There has been a resurgence of using dogs in recent years as a "green" alternative to more modern extermination techniques. Its better for the environment and more effective/efficent than trapping and killing the rats by other means. Rat poison moves up the food chain and many many non rat animals - wild and domestic - end up getting killed by it. A few well trained terriers can kill several hundred rats in just a few hours. One could even argue that it is better for the rats too - instead of long drawn out suffering via poison, most of the dog kills are a quick death by cervical dislocation. 

I hate that rats have to die, but when there is an infestation that has to go - i support the terrier men and their dogs! Less negative impact on the environment and way safer for pets and kids.


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## DamselChum

I don't mind using live rats in barn hunts or earth dog trials (earth dog trials have the rats caged in an under ground tunnel with bars protecting the cage from the dog. The dog is expected to "work" the quarry by dogging, barking, growling or trying to chew the bars).

I don't do barn hunts myself as I train my dogs in other scent work that I do not want barn hunts to conflict with, but I know several people who do - including people who like rats and wont let their dogs terrorize other animas. They've reported that rat safety was a priority and during the instinct phase where the dog is teased by a caged rat - that the rat was inquisitive and came right up to the front for a nose to nose sniff. That didn't surprise me considering my own rats are all about getting into the face of my dogs and show no fear about the fact the dog wants to eat them! Regardless though I imagine that the care of the rats vary from club to club.

I am sure that it is very stressful for at least some of the rats involved with it though. I am still OK with it. 

I've been involved with working dogs my entire life. Training them, working them, and titling them. It is so important to have viable tests of breeding stock and their progeny to retain a breed's working ability. 

It's not just scent work - so using dirty bedding or other scents just doesn't cut it. It is a hunting test. Designed to test the dog's ability to find a LIVE rat. Not only find it, but as in the case with earth dog (Maybe barn hunt? I'm not as familiar with their rules) the dog also must show enthusiasm to engage with the prey. They call it working the quarry. You can't test that with just scents. How do you know the dog wants to get the rat with no rat there?

Like I said I've been involved with working dogs a long time and i am really passionate about retaining their working ability. One of the reasons that german shepherds have become so invaluable as police dogs is their herding style. Traditionally they aren't gathering dogs - they are tending dogs. Meaning they are designed to circle a flock and be a living fence. Keeping sheep out of vegetable gardens and roads. Because they don't properly chase the sheep the sheep often loose their fear of the dog and the dog has to be more forceful in moving them. They grip the neck or ribs of a sheep with a full mouthed bite and will physically move an unruly sheep back in line. This grip and hold works well for apprehending criminals. Other herding breeds that are nippers don't have the genetic grip needed for that work. I took my shepherd for his herding instinct test - he went straight for a nice rib grip. Another shepherd there did not. I was able to report back to his breeder how the dog did. The breeder, who actually does place dogs in law enforcement careers, now knows that the pairing he did resulted in pups that retained that trait genetically in real world situations. Yeah the poor sheep might have been uncomfortable, but I am OK with that considering I was able to provide valuable information to the breeder who produces dogs that SAFE LIVES.

I think there is still a need for working ratters. So I have to support these instinct tests. Especially considering that the rats are kept safe and are unharmed!

I've been told that the barn hunts are really fun too. I'll have to check one out in person sometime.


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## Gribouilli

That company is developing some tasty liquid rat birth control...much better than using dogs to terrorize and hurt rats. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/20/man-v-rat-war-could-the-long-war-soon-be-over


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## moonkissed

Kelsbels said:


> This American Life actually reported on something like this happening in NYC. There's a group of terrier owners who like to hunt wild rats in the city, and these rats get killed. It was a difficult episode to listen to.
> 
> So in a way this sounds a little better, but I still feel like it's still cruel to the rats.


As someone else said that is way different from a barn hunt. It was discussed on a dog forum I am on.

I really think it is an awful idea.

First wild animals have god knows what diseases. I don't think it is wise to expose your dog to that.
Secondly even well trained dogs can be harmed in the attack. Rats can defend themselves very well. I can't imagine putting my dog at risk like that.

Lastly it was pretty much open to anyone... People are in general morons. How many people think their dog is so well trained and wonderful and yet they are the dogs that get loose and have the owner screaming after them as they continue to run off, the dogs that end up biting someone, etc.... 

So someone brings their dog out to do so and the dog is not well trained and it either leads to aggressive dogs who don't know the difference between when it is ok and when it is not. I don't like that. If perhaps they required some general training first maybe....

I still cant imagine letting my own dogs do that.


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## Kelsbels

I'm only recently familiar to both things this week, but having not seen it with my own eyes in practice, they both sound similar. I mean now I know they aren't, thanks for pointing it out. 

I agree moonkissed the one in NYC sounds like it could go bad considering the rats are wild and unpredictable.


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## Rattielover965

The rats might not be physically hurt, but some might be traumatized


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## Marilynx

I have many Rattie Girls. Matilda, Badger, Blaze, Snow, Smoke, Patch, Ginger, Gina, Zip, Flash, Zora.

They are my partners in training for Barn Hunt, which I do with my Beagle and my longhaired Dachshund.

I must note that Zip does not like doing the tubes, so I do not ask her to. She just gets to hang out with the other Girls, and get scritched and petted with them when I bring them their food. She does like her treats, though, and she gets very jealous when some of them come back from working and get treats which she does not. One day, she may decide the lure of the treat overcomes her fear of the tubes -- but I am not going to push her. If she does, she does. If she doesn't, she will still be my little Zip girl.

The tubes are not metal -- that would be dangerous to both rats and dogs. They are out of heavy duty (Schedule 40) 4" diameter PVC pipe. With adequate air holes and litter in it for comfort. I use shredded paper litter. There will typically be urine in the litter when I take the Girls out, but rarely feces.

I saw more urine and feces when I tried to put them in one of those rolling balls that rats are supposed to like. My Girls HATED it! Peed and pooped all over it. So I washed it out, and it sits on the shelf awaiting a chance to donate it to a rat rescue, or something.

When we are doing a practice, I set up the tubes and then hold a tube up to the door and say, "Who wants to volunteer today?" Someone comes out and hops in the tube, I give them half a pecan, and then close the tube. Then I hold the next tube up, and repeat, until I have up to the five rats needed for a Master run. After we have the practice, and the client dog has left, I set up an X-pen on the straw and give my Girls a bit of free time, running about on the straw. They usually dash about a bit, and then hop back in their tubes. We go back to the house (practice is in my air-conditioned detached garage) and the Girls who worked get some treat -- a bit of cheese, a bite of homemade jerky, some fruit, etc. Who wants to work varies from day to day, although most of the time, Snow, Smoke, and Blaze are right there.

I am exceedingly careful with my Girls -- I started out trying to be detached. It didn't work. The Girls charmed me totally. Each of them has different abilities. Matilda, my eldest, likes working with the Novice dogs. She sits in the tube and waits, listening to the clumsy newcomer hunt for her. If the dog doesn't find her in what she considers a suitable amount of time, she starts chittering at them. "Over here! Over here, you stupid dog! Come put your paws on my tube so we BOTH get a treat!" Because, of course, while the owner is praising their dog, I am removing the tube from the ring and slipping a nibble of something into my Girl. Badger, Matilda's daughter, likes working in the clear tube as "Intro to the Rat." She sits in the clear tube, where the dog can see her, and calmly washes her ears. The dog spots her, and usually starts barking hysterically. Badger then washes her tail. The dog gets ultra hysterical, and Badger gives them a hard stare, as if to say, "You are TOO loud, did you know that?" and goes back to washing her ears. If given a choice between a clear tube and an opaque tube, Badger will choose the clear one every time.

My Beagle is a terrible Barn Hunter. She likes doing the Tunnels and Climbs. She knows she can't get at the rats, so why bother? (The score is currently Open Level Rats, 26; Babette Beagle, 0.)

My Dachshund is an excellent Barn Hunter -- he has his Master title, and is working on a Champion title. He uncovers the tube for me so I can call "Rat!" and then abandons it. It's a game for him. Find them, show them to Missy, and then be off.

Yes, there are dogs who can be rough. That's why there are rat wranglers in the ring, not only to remove a found rat, but the make sure no rat is harmed. I'm told that Malinois always pick up a tube and prance around the ring with it. I'd freak if it were my Girls.

Back in June, we had 40 dogs come to practice before the local trials. I was a touch worried that the Girls would be worn out, or upset by so much work. Not they! We came home from the first day of the trials. The Girls had had the whole day to snooze, and kick back. I walked past the rat room, and said, "Good evening," to them, and there they were, swarmed up on the side of the Critter Nation Double, SHAKING the cage! "Where have you been all day? Rats are bored! Rats want to tease the dogs! Rats are bored!" (If you've had a CND, you know how amazing it is that eleven rattie girls could shake one!)

This last weekend, I lost my rat sitter unexpectedly. I didn't have the means set up to be sure the Girls would have adequate food and water for five days, so they went in their travel cages and came with us. (NOT going to risk their safety for 5 days on an untested system!) They stayed in the rat room at the Barn Hunt, and by Day Two, they were volunteering to work, they were so bored. (Travel cages have a minimum of toys, and nowhere NEAR enough room for active, intelligent Rattie Girls!) I went in the second morning to check their food and water and cuddle them, and they were trying to climb from my hands into the nearby tubes.

I don't think they'd do that if the Hunts frightened them in any way -- not even for their special treats.

I know that many, MANY rats who were destined to be feeder rats now work Barn Hunt. Some Barn Hunters are breeding their own, from rats who have proved particularly skilled at playing prey. (There's a legend amongst the Senior level Barn Hunters about The Fourth Rat, who is said to be clever, and diabolically skilled at hiding himself/herself, and who is even credited with being able to disguise his/her scent! A dog must find 4 rats at the senior level in 3.5 minutes, and many, MANY dogs have failed to find The Fourth Rat.)

Given how fast the sport of Barn Hunting has grown, I would (sadly) be unsurprised if there are some Barn Hunters who DO regard the rats as a means to an end, rather than partners in the game. That's not the way it's supposed to be, but I'm sure there are.

My Girls are definitely PARTNERS, not OBJECTS. Couldn't do it without them. And they have brought so much additional fun into my life, just by being themselves.

I've seen how the ratties are treated at my local club, and at the club we travel to most often. Partners again, not objects. (There was one rattie who used to get bored in her tube. So she would reach out through an air hole, grab a loose piece of straw, and start twirling it around, and pumping it up and down. It looked for all the world like she was opening and closing an umbrella under the straw. Dogs would either go straight for that tube, or they'd freak and stay away from it. Handlers were usually giggling too hard to call "Rat!")

I have fun doing Barn Hunt with my dogs, AND my rats.


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## moonkissed

> I saw more urine and feces when I tried to put them in one of those rolling balls that rats are supposed to like. My Girls HATED it! Peed and pooped all over it. So I washed it out, and it sits on the shelf awaiting a chance to donate it to a rat rescue, or something.


That makes sense as the balls are god awful for rats and should not actually be used  Sadly many things sold for pets are not actually good or safe for them. You can hang the ball in the cage as a bed though, many do. 



> There was one rattie who used to get bored in her tube. So she would reach out through an air hole, grab a loose piece of straw


That would worry me as if they rat can reach out the risk of injury could happen.



Preferring clear tubes makes sense because they want to be able to see their surroundings. Rats being accepting of the tubes and entering them willingly doesn't mean they are ok with it either. It is the same reasoning many people use when they say their rats love those balls. It is usually more that they want OUT of their cage. They are looking for a way to be free and they are thinking A will be a means to B. Rats are also very naturally drawn to enter things. I use it all the time for my rats, give them a box or tube or bed to enter and they almost always automatically will no matter the end result of entering it. 


I am glad that you treat your rats well. I still do not like the idea of it at all. I can't see using any of my pets as bait, even in a game. You even said yourself that the dogs reactive differently. Some even grabbing the tubes.... 
And there is no way to tell how all rats are treated or that every rat is not scared or even safe. I mostly do not understand why anyone would want to use live animals this way.


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## Andromeda

Sorry, but....no. To the people saying 'the rats aren't stressed', you're kidding yourselves. Just because they aren't freaking out, does not mean they aren't stressed. If you were put in a fiberglass box while a tiger was set loose and was dead set on getting into the box, would you be stressed? Of course you would. You might not be curled up in a corner screaming, but you would definitely be worried.

As for killing rats with dogs being a better alternative to poisons and traps, I beg to differ. Dogs DO NOT kill 100% of the rodents they catch. My uncle had a farm dog that was trained to hunt gophers in the fields where his cattle grazed, and I can tell you from personal experience, a lot of those gophers ended up getting maimed and then left there to bleed to death. Dogs might be faster, but that are not more humane.


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## Marilynx

moonkissed said:


> That makes sense as the balls are god awful for rats and should not actually be used  Sadly many things sold for pets are not actually good or safe for them. You can hang the ball in the cage as a bed though, many do.


That's interesting, because I know a number of rat owners who swear by the balls -- that was one reason I got one for mine.




> That would worry me as if they rat can reach out the risk of injury could happen.


As I understand it, she would grab the straw before there were any dogs around, and thereafter manipulate it from inside the tube.




> Preferring clear tubes makes sense because they want to be able to see their surroundings. Rats being accepting of the tubes and entering them willingly doesn't mean they are ok with it either. It is the same reasoning many people use when they say their rats love those balls. It is usually more that they want OUT of their cage. They are looking for a way to be free and they are thinking A will be a means to B. Rats are also very naturally drawn to enter things. I use it all the time for my rats, give them a box or tube or bed to enter and they almost always automatically will no matter the end result of entering it.


Well, actually, Badger is the only one who likes the clear tube. The others prefer the opaque ones. 




> I am glad that you treat your rats well. I still do not like the idea of it at all. I can't see using any of my pets as bait, even in a game. You even said yourself that the dogs reactive differently. Some even grabbing the tubes....
> And there is no way to tell how all rats are treated or that every rat is not scared or even safe. I mostly do not understand why anyone would want to use live animals this way.


You are correct that there is no way to guarantee the safety of either rat or dog in this sport. I do know that there are stiff penalties from the parent organization if rat abuse is hinted at. But all of the people I know who do Barn Hunt, and also keep rats are very careful of their rats' safety.


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## Marilynx

Andromeda said:


> Sorry, but....no. To the people saying 'the rats aren't stressed', you're kidding yourselves. Just because they aren't freaking out, does not mean they aren't stressed. If you were put in a fiberglass box while a tiger was set loose and was dead set on getting into the box, would you be stressed? Of course you would. You might not be curled up in a corner screaming, but you would definitely be worried.


Yes, and no. If I knew the box was tiger-proof, I probably wouldn't worry, much as I don't worry about the tigers at the zoo. 



> As for killing rats with dogs being a better alternative to poisons and traps, I beg to differ. Dogs DO NOT kill 100% of the rodents they catch. My uncle had a farm dog that was trained to hunt gophers in the fields where his cattle grazed, and I can tell you from personal experience, a lot of those gophers ended up getting maimed and then left there to bleed to death. Dogs might be faster, but that are not more humane.


To this I can't speak, as I've never participated in something like that. When I was becoming frustrated with my Beagle's refusal to indicate the rats, an individual suggested getting a feeder rat, turning it loose, and letting my Beagle catch and kill it. I looked at the person and said, "NO. Not only NO, but h-ll NO."


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