# Should I have him put down?



## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Hello!

I haven't been on this forum for quite a while, as things were going well with the rats. 
Unfortunately, in the past couple of weeks the health of my two older rats have deteriorated fast.
First, I noticed Kip was making a lot funny noises when breathing. So, I brought him to the vet about 2 months ago now and got Enrofloxacin (sp?) to clear it up, he's gotten better but can't seem to shake it off completely. I've increased the dosage, and even then...not much has gotten better. He's still eating and drinking, and moves around.
Right now, however, my biggest worry is his brother Samson. Samson had no breathing problems until about two weeks ago, when I noticed he was struggling to breathe. I put him on Enrofloxacin as well, but nothing seems to be working. I've increased the dose about 5 days ago now, and still nothing. Seeing him struggling to breathe is breaking my heart. He eats and drink, but he sleeps a lot more now. He also poo's and pee's right where he is sleeping, whereas usually he goes in to the bathroom in his corner. He can only run about 10 seconds before he's out of breath. When he's out of breath, he lies still and his whole body moves from trying to get enough air in his lungs. 
I'm getting myself mentally prepared, I know his days are very limited. 
I'm wondering what is more ethical, though... I don't like seeing him suffer like this, but he is still eating drinking and going out of his cage. Should I still put him down?


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Are you aware combinations can be tried? Baytril (which is what you're currently using) and Doxycycline is a recommended combo and it worked really well for my Spike when it sounded like he was snoring 24/7. What dosage is he currently on and do you know his weight?


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

I didn't realise that there could be a combination of both meds. 
I don't know my rat's weight unfortunately, but I'll call the vet tomorrow and see if they have it on record. 
Right now, both the older rats are on 0.6ml of Enrofloxacin. They're both fairly big rats, as my vet told me I should put them on a diet. For now, would it be easier if I posted a picture of Samson, so as to give a bit of an idea of how big he is? 
I'll post tomorrow with more information. I'll also call around for vets here who treat exotic pets (I've just moved back to my university). 

EDIT:

Here's a link to the pics I've posted a few months ago of my rats. The two older ones, Samson and Kip are the ones with breathing problems (the first few pictures are of those two). For now, this is the best I can do as I have no idea what their weights are, but I'll call my vet tomorrow. 

http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,14194.0.html


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Unless he is miserable and has given up I would not be considering euthanasia at this stage because you have barely started with treatment options.

Not all rats respond to baytril on its own. If you're not seeing an improvement after 3-4 days you need to bring in a second antibiotic. Leaving them on an antibiotic they are not responding to isn't going to help. If anything it makes it harder to treat because it allows the bacteria to build up resistance.

If it were me the first thing I’d do is check the baytril dosage is correct and then I’d combine it with doxy. In order to check the dose we'll need the amount given to the rats daily (which you've provided) as well as the weight of the rats and the concentration of the baytril.

If I wasn't seeing any improvement on that combo after a few days I'd look at another proven combination such as baytril and zithromax or baytril and clavamox (I have had success with the latter with a particularly stubborn respiratory infection.) 

As long as the boys are still fighting there's no reason to think about giving up yet because you still have many treatment options to explore.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm glad to see there's still hope, thank you very much.

I've been in touch with my vet throughout the whole process, and she is well aware that the treatment isn't working very well for either of my rats, but she never ever mentioned that there was another antibiotic that could help. This is discouraging, as I thought she knew a lot about rats...since she had some of her own for many years.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Clairebert said:


> I'm glad to see there's still hope, thank you very much.
> 
> I've been in touch with my vet throughout the whole process, and she is well aware that the treatment isn't working very well for either of my rats, but she never ever mentioned that there was another antibiotic that could help. This is discouraging, as I thought she knew a lot about rats...since she had some of her own for many years.


There is definitely hope...you can add a 2nd antibiotic to your baytril (doxycycline, zithromax, etc)
You could check for a heart condition by dosing your rat with heart meds for 3-4 days to see if he responds...abs won't help a heart issue, only enalapril, etc can do that.

Have they been sick off and on their entire lives?


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Have they been sick off and on their entire lives?



No, I don't think so. I've watched closely ever since I got them. When I joined this forum, I'd had them for about 2 days, and when I read the topics and threats on here I saw how many many rats suffer from respiratory problems, and so I always kept an eye on it. They were always quite healthy. It wasn't until about 2 months ago that Kip started having his breathing problem. The vet said that he had pneumonia and it had set in his lungs, and I was confused since I assumed that for it to have set in his lungs meant that he'd had an upper respiratory infection, which I hadn't noticed. He'd never seemed particularly sneezy to me. Samson's problems are fairly new, but they're getting worse much quicker than Kip's did.

I'll post later, I've got a class in about 45 minutes. But afterward I'll call my vet. 
Thanks for your advice! 


EDIT: Alrighty, I just called the vet. Last time they weighed Samson he was around 687grams...or 1.5 pounds. I doubt he still weighs that though, as he's lost some weight lately due to being sickly. Now I can feel every single bump in his spine, whereas before he was a fatty and I couldn't.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

His condition has worsened quite badly. He can't get much air when he breathes and this stops him from sleeping. He's frantic and running around panicking, which only makes his breathing worse. 
It's very heart-breaking to watch, and I always tried to learn as much as I could about rats so as to give them the best life they could have and now I feel I made a big mistake trusting my vet that much. 

I have a vet appointment for thursday, but I'm not too sure Samson is going to last that long :'(


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

I was in a similair siruation with my last boy. In my experience with him he'll let you know. If he is still wanting to play and has energy and is fighting dont give up yet. When hes ready he will not want to do anything and he will let you know.


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

Maybe if you call in the morning they'll be able to fit you in instead of waiting until Thursday.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

The emergency vets may be an option if you think that would be best.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the emergency vets is what I'll do...right now he's calmed down and sleeping in his hammock. 
I'll try calling the vet tomorrow morning to see if it makes a difference, thank you for the suggestion. If they still haven't room for me, I'll go to the emergency clinic. 
What can the emergency clinic do, however? I'm not sure whether they'll know much about rats... Will they be able to prescribe me some drugs for him?


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

I guess you could print out this thread with the drug advice to take with you, whether to your vet or the emergency vet. Also the ratguide has medication info, http://ratguide.com/meds/ if they aren't familiar with rats you could suggest that site to them? Just a couple of ideas. Hope things work out for the best.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh the poor thing. In that state you can't make him wait till Thursday. You need to get him an appointment with your regular vet today/tomorrow (I don't know the time where you are) and if that fails find another vet that can see him.

Ask about a steroid injection as that will help him relax and breathe easier while waiting for the antibiotics to work. They should use either prednisone or dexamethasone. 

If he's really bad they can give him oxygen although that's not something I've personally experienced. 

If you're not confident with their rat experience print out this drug chart and take it with you so they can see the recommended dosage. 

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

You definitely need a combo so I'd be asking for baytril and doxycycline first. 

As mentioned you can also ask about baytril and zithromax or baytril and clavamox. Any of these drug combos should help. 

Have them listen to his chest for congestion. 

Lilspaz mentioned a heart condition earlier which can also result in shortness of breath so that is another possibility and something you may want to talk to the vet about. The attached article lists other symptoms to look out for, however if unsure I'd still treat with an antibiotic combo first and look at the heart if he wasn't responding.

http://ratguide.com/health/cardiovascular/congestive_heart_failure.php

Until you can get him to the vet try and keep him as comfortable as you can. Make sure his bedding is clean and dry and he is warm. If his breathing does get laboured again you can try taking him into the bathroom with you and running the shower but do watch him carefully as it can make some rats worse, especially if they have fluid in the lungs. If he shows any sign of added stress remove him immediately.

Good luck, I hope he'll be okay.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

> Ask about a steroid injection as that will help him relax and breathe easier while waiting for the antibiotics to work. They should use either prednisone or dexamethasone.


I agree. Just remember never give steroid with metacam, if you are offered that.... it can't be given together. I have had good luck with the steroid injections, though.



> If he's really bad they can give him oxygen although that's not something I've personally experienced.


We had one boy experience this.... and he got too stressed out and breathed worse. The vets wanted to leave him a few minutes but only managed 30/40 seconds.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Hey guys, thanks for much for your posts! I'm more hopeful now that something can be done. 
I'm currently in class, there's a 20 minute break and I thought I'd take the time to update.
Samson had a fairly good night's sleep last night, curled up in his hammock with his brother. I woke up every 2 hours, and checked on him and he was sleeping quite peacefully.
Today, he's a bit better. He hasn't had any breathing attacks which means he's fairly calm. He still breathes with difficulty but nothing quite as bad as yesterday. He's eating more today than he did yesterday.
I called another vet clinic, and they said they could fit me in for tomorrow morning at 9:30. I'll be closely monitoring him tonight, and if he gets worse I'll bring him to the emergency clinic. 
Even though the Baytril so far hasn't done much so far, I've been feeding it to him in mashed bananas and mashed apples, which he eats though slowly. 
I'll be printing off these messages and any links that were given for me.
Thank you very much!!


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

*UPDATE: Re: Should I have him put down?*

Oh man, there' something else wrong with Samson. There's some skin falling off his lower stomach area I think! 
He won't let me have a look. WHAT THE HECK!? I never noticed an absess there, I have no idea what's going on! 
It looks like his skin is falling off, and its dark around the edges.

EDIT: Alright, so right after I first noticed this thing (and i feel silly for never seeing it before). Samson must have chewed the scab off (it was just hanging down) and is now eating it :-\
I've seen various pics of scabs and absesses on here, and this is what this thing looks like to me. How I never noticed it before is...well, very scary. I've always had these guys on my lap and I pet them a lot. 
What do I do now? How should I keep it clean? 

Now, this absess...his breathing difficulties couldn't have been related to it, could it? I'm thinking it was just something else entirely. I've done a little research on abscesses. His abscess was in the groin region and is about the size of my thumb nail. I'll be cleaning it tonight with a saline solution (1 cup of water and one teaspoon of salt). Tomorrow I'll be seeing the vet about his breathing problems, and so I'll ask him to have a look at the abscess. 
It must have burst yesterday, I noticed a strange smell in my room. I attributed this to Samson not cleaning himself due to being out of breath often.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

If its an abscess you'll need to remove any scab formed first (can be soaked off) and flush with saline with a needleless syringe twice a day. Abscesses need to be kept open so they heal from the inside out, to prevent anything getting trapped in and healed over. Make sure any pus is removed


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Great, thank you for your help!

I attempted to clean it yesterday, but he panicked and started breathing very poorly so I gave up. I'm not sure whether that was good enough, I certainly managed to put some saline water on it, but not long enough to properly soak it I think.
Anyway, I'll be heading to the vets in about half an hour, maybe she can help me out.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Even after the vets, it will still need cleaning like that twice daily. Maybe they can give you a decent sized syringe to flush it with though if you ask (if you don't already have one). I prefer using a larger syringe to get some pressure built up and it means it doesn't need to be flushed as many times compared to if using a tiny syringe.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Alrighty, so I'm just back from the vets! She was very helpful and gave me lots of tips (a lot more helpful than my regular vet from back home, me thinks). He is now on doxycicline, I've just given him his first batch of it in some mashed banana and he ate it all. She told me to give him doxycycline twice a day for the next 45 days. I am hoping and praying that this will work, keep your fingers crossed!

As for the abscess, the vet had a look at it. She said the baytril would have helped with the abscess (and since Samson has been on baytril over two weeks now, she didn't seem too worried). She checked the wound to see if it was clean, and she said everything looked to be fine and said to continue soaking it with salt-water twice a day just to make sure. 

I feel much more relieved now that I've gone to the vet, and I hope Samson keeps going on long enough for the meds to kick in. He's doing well, eating and cleaning himself a bit more often now (though I still wake up to see him lying in his own feces), I've been trying to keep the cage as clean as possible. Tonight, I'll be taking out all the bedding and putting in some paper towel as the vet recommended I do until Samson gets better. 

Thank you for your help guys, and I shall keep you updated


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

You may find fleece to be better  more absorbent and won't stay wet. They've gave you 45 days of Doxy? I think that's the first time I've read about a vet giving a long course straight away, not that that's a bad thing at all. He is still on Baytril as well as the Doxycycline?


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Yes, I was surprised too she recommended 45 days from the bat, but I like it better this way...she seemed less hesitant and worried than Samson's regular vet. 

And yes, she said to continue on the baytril as normal, the combination being more favourable she said.


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

Glad to hear the positive news. Sounds like this vet is a keeper.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

A definite keeper!! ;D


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Alrighty, so here's an update. It's going to be one week tomorrow that Samson has been on the doxycycline. I was wondering if someone would have a general idea of when I'd notice any significant changes? 
Samson's pneumonia hasn't worsened. It has improved a bit, but hasn't improved a significant amount either. The vet called me a couple of days ago (something my regular vet never did!) and asked how he was. I told her that he hadn't gotten worse, he's improved a little bit in that he is a bit more active and is eating more though he's still pooping and peeing where he is instead of in the corner where he used to. If he runs around too much, he gets out of breath and still struggles to get enough air but I noticed that his recovery time during these bouts has shortened (I've been timing them since he's been on the meds). 
He's got one eye that has porphoryn around it now, however, and he is still breathing from his abdomen. 
She asked me to call her in a few days if it still isn't getting much better, as she could put him on a bronchilator. 
Oh, and I've also put a humidifier beside his cage. She recommended one to loosen up the hard crusty stuff in his lungs. 

Anyhoo, what do you guys think? I realise a week is a short time to see any significant changes in his health, but neither do I want to wait too long if I can also try the bronchilator...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It hasn't improved anywhere near enough in a week  You could try new meds...would your vet be willing to replace the doxy with zithromax instead?

There is 2 possibilities here, he has pulmonary abscesses and might need a steroid for the inflammation in his lungs OR he has a heart condition and maybe you could insist on lasix at least? Lasix is also good in a lot of resp issues.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Hmmm...the more I do research on it, the more his symptoms seem to fit some sort of cardiovascular problem, but then again I'm no expert. Anyway, I've noted down what you've recommended Lilspaz. I've made an appointment for him for tomorrow at 12:30.
How does a vet look for lung abscesses, out of curiosity? Should I put more money aside in case we need x-rays and stuff? 


Also, would a cardiovascular disease cause him to have panic attacks and subsequently have trouble breathing? I've been trying to keep him inside his cage, since I noticed that his breathing got worse when he roamed around my room. However, now he's been desperate to get out of his cage and when I open the door to fill up his food bowl or whatever, he dashes out of his cage and frantically climbs up to the top of his cage and for about 4 minutes sits there, opening and closing his mouth, trying to breathe.
Maybe he's very unlucky and has both a cardiovascular AND a breathing problem?


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Heart issues can present very similar signs to respiratory problems. 

You might find the links below useful to read:
http://ratguide.com/health/cardiovascular/cardiomyopathy.php
http://ratguide.com/health/cardiovascular/congestive_heart_failure.php

And then compare with the respiratory problems:
http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/mycoplasma_mycoplasmosis.php
http://ratguide.com/health/lower_respiratory/pneumonia.php


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks, Stace!
I read through those and checked off everything that applied. 
So far, most of his symptoms fit the description for pneumonia...big problem with that is that his meds aren't working as well as they should, which probably means its not pneumonia... the second best one is Hypertropic Cardiomyopathy... he tires very quickly, labored breathing, hangs head over shelf, and his hind legs I've noticed aren't up to par, and weight loss. 
Anyway, I've printed those off and highlighted all the symptoms that apply to Samson. I'll show them to the vet tomorrow, and we'll see what she has to say. 
Thanks again for your help, guys!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

check for dark nail beds and cool feet, tail(lack of oxygen making it to extremities as well).

When I see symptoms like this I do a diagnostic dosing for Heart issues, in 3-4 days if there is no improvement then I know its a respiratory condition. 

You can x-ray the heart and lungs to check for both, but most people cannot afford it when its just easier to try the hard meds and rule it all out.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

hello!
I didn't update this sooner as I've been feeling rather crappy myself. Fever and vomitting. YUM 

Samson went to the vet this morning, and we decided to get some x-rays done. The x-rays showed that his left lung was completely filled with fluids, and because of this we weren't able to see his heart very well on the x-ray image (he was also moving around a lot). Poor Samson is staying at the vet's overnight, they need to drain his lungs of fluid. He will most likely be ready to pick up tomorrow. She's also given me some Lasix, which treats both cardiovascular and respiratory problems. 

I miss my little Samson, and I hope he's doing OK all alone over there.


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

I've got some terribly sad news. What they thought was fluid in his lungs actually seems to be a large solid mass. At this point, the vet told me, there's not much one can do... She told me to have a think about his quality of life and such. I decided to have him put to sleep... Samson hasn't been himself for almost a month now and seeing him panic and not eating because he can't get enough oxygen into his lungs is heartbreaking and I don't want him to go through that any longer.

Thank you guys for all your support and your advice, it has been helpful and had given me some hope and these last few days with him I've made sure to give him tons and tons of attention, and though it makes me sad I feel that I'm making the right decision.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am so very very sorry Clairebert, you did the kindest and most loving thing you could. I had to do the same myself today. It still hurts though ((hugs))


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

RIP Samson


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## Clairebert (Apr 21, 2008)

Samson is now buried in my backyard, underneath a maple tree. I put a big rock there as a headstone and wrote on it: "RIP Samson, Much Ratty Love." 

It's been quite difficult, this is the first of my rats to pass away. I was crying through the whole thing, the cab ride there and back. They left me alone with Samson, and I gave him a big cuddle. He cuddled himself in my sweater and started eye-boggling. He was happy to see me. He stayed in my shirt for about 10 minutes, I then signalled the vet that he and I were ready. I didn't watch the actual process, I am not as strong-willed and brave as some of you guys are. 

I'm sad, but I'm relieved too... seeing him struggle day to day was very upsetting, and his behaviour changed, he didn't want any more cuddles and ran away a lot. I have no regrets, and I did everything I could do before having him put down.

He was a lovely rat, very caring and gentle. I'll miss him very much. 

Lilspaz, I'm sorry to hear you've suffered a loss too today. I know, with you as their owner, this ratty was a happy one.


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