# Thoughts on the "No Intentional Breeding" Rule



## Jaguar

Hey folks! 

I doubt many of you around these days remember when or why this rule was put in place.

More or less, we forbade the discussion of intentional breeding because it often led to flame wars about morals/ethics and differing opinions. It became a headache for the mods to deal with and divided the community between "pro breeding" and "anti breeding".

To combat some people (breeders that were active on the forum) feeling targeted or silenced, we created a submission program where you could submit your rattery for approval to post on the site. Even passing the submission, you are heavily restricted in what and where you can actually post info about your rattery. We have the mod team look through these submitted websites and decide, based on our own personal guidelines (and others including BWR's "red flags" post), to approve or deny these ratteries. It became another burden on the mods - not just for the time required, but also the pressure of having to draw the line between good breeder and bad.

To summarize, it's a confusing and rather crappy system.

I've been thinking about it for a while, and I've been considering at least a reform of the rules. I would like to know the forum's opinion first, though - both members and breeders (approved or not). 

Do you think this rule is fair? Do you find it easy to understand? Do you think it fosters open discussion and a friendly and welcoming environment on the forum? Do you think there could be some changes - and, if so, what do you suggest?


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## Okeedoke22

Hello. Are you thinking about restricting breeders more or loosening restrictions more? I can only imagine how big a burden it is vetting breeders but since you guys/gals have so much more experience and know what to look for it is a huge help for the less experienced rat lovers. Any discussion over animals we love can get tricky and sometimes can lead to arguments. The biggest thing we need is to have respect for everyones opinion. We need more good breeders and to hear from them. I would hate for them to not have a voice. I already feel like I have learned so much just from reading websites from breeders that contribute here to breeders I have found myself. I do understand that their are so many rats in need of homes. So why breed more? Well for one, health and temperament will hopefully be most important for breeding. A rats life is so short so any chance we can make them healthier would be amazing. I have a rescue dog and cat. so I think rescuing animals in need is amazing. With dogs having a mix breed(mutt) tends to create better health overall. Purebreeds come with an assortment of problems. Our dog couldn't be more perfect for our family. I couldn't even imagine our family without him. As far as our 1st ratties I want to adopt from a great breeder and hopefully have a healthier and more social rat. Just my preference. This forum has been amazing for me. I didn't know how bad pet stores could be. I'm glad I have joined. Ps. Didn't want to be ther 1st to respond because I'm so new but since no one has answered I figured let's start it up.


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## Jokerfest

I personally think there should be a sub forum that maybe only registered users could see and go into for breeders. That way if anyone has issues and doesn't want to see such talk they dont have to go into the forum. 
I think there will always be moral issues, for example if someone is irresponsible and posts raving about how cute their litter who were bred from unhealthy parents are I'm sure there will be conflict in the topic.. But I think allowing talk of intentional breeding in it's own space could help those who want to learn and do things right. I think it'd also help everyone interested in rats in general learn things about them even if they dont want to be a breeder.


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## Kelsbels

I like Jokerfest's idea! I was going to say some to the degree that there's always going to be controversy popping up now and then, but couldn't formulate any ideas, but Jokerfest nailed it.


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## moonkissed

I support allowing breeders to discuss breeding.  Breeding responsibly is important and not allowing any discussion I think sends a bad message that it is wrong and also often turns people away from breeders and then they often go to pet stores instead.

but... I do not think random person throwing together their rats should be allowed to post/share that. We shouldn't support BYBs or make their irresponsible behavior seem acceptable. How would one know the difference? Well without taking a ton of effort from the mods, simply people with established ratteries, website/facebook page or such is atleast something.

I do think that breeding discussion which shares some knowledge is beneficial. Talking about proper set ups, genetics, care etc... is all great! It may help someone learn how to do things properly. But i do think there is a very delicate line between sharing knowledge and giving people ideas. Honestly if someone is serious about it they should not be trying to learn it off a pet forum but actual good breeding sources.


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## Jaguar

Jokerfest said:


> I personally think there should be a sub forum that maybe only registered users could see and go into for breeders. That way if anyone has issues and doesn't want to see such talk they dont have to go into the forum.
> I think there will always be moral issues, for example if someone is irresponsible and posts raving about how cute their litter who were bred from unhealthy parents are I'm sure there will be conflict in the topic.. But I think allowing talk of intentional breeding in it's own space could help those who want to learn and do things right. I think it'd also help everyone interested in rats in general learn things about them even if they dont want to be a breeder.


That's a good idea! One of my concerns with allowing the discussion again was that we'd get members signing up solely to ask for breeding advice/advertise their litters/etc. It's unfortunately prevalent on some other pet forums, but I think making it a hidden members-only forum would curb it to some degree.


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## Kelsbels

Jaguar said:


> That's a good idea! One of my concerns with allowing the discussion again was that we'd get members signing up solely to ask for breeding advice/advertise their litters/etc. It's unfortunately prevalent on some other pet forums, but I think making it a hidden members-only forum would curb it to some degree.


It also might be good to have another limitation step, just like the hello forum, that people need to post a certain number of posts or be active for a week before they can access that forum? That way people signing up just to access that forum can't do it immediately. Just an idea though, I don't know how possible it is.


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## Jokerfest

Kelsbels said:


> It also might be good to have another limitation step, just like the hello forum, that people need to post a certain number of posts or be active for a week before they can access that forum? That way people signing up just to access that forum can't do it immediately. Just an idea though, I don't know how possible it is.


Ohh this would be a good idea too I agree with this.


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## Asiposea

I for one would like to see more involvement and posts from reputable breeders. Even though I have no intention of breeding, I want to continue learning and hearing about what's going on in the breeding community. Yes, I can (and have) talked to breeders directly to get information, but forums offer a unique platform for research. I do understand that the mods probably will have their workload increased. If you had a subforum for this would 'stickies' help? Really give out the ethics and a description of what responsible breeders have to be concerned about (not actually 'how') and that one of the best ways, if somebody is truly interested in doing this, is to find a reputable breeder to be a mentor?

When I google 'how to breed rats', it would be nice to see these forum posts and stickies up there at the top. Is that possible?

I'm not sure what this forum is capable of doing...could there be a subforum like 'ask the experts (breeders)' where you have a panel of breeders who could then discuss their experiences on topics forum members ask/suggest?


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## Administrator

I'll chime in to speak for the technical aspects. Having stickies explaining these "ethical" standards would be simple enough, and while we can't directly influence what shows up in Google Searches, if we have the section hidden from unregistered users, it won't come up. Not endorsing whether or not to have it one way or the other, just speaking technical.

Having a "panel" of experts would probably be something that would need time to be built up, but we could add a subsection dedicated to them, where they could post threads for discussion.

Whatever you guys want for this, we'll be happy with and do our best to set it up.

Kevin


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## smilesandsqueaksrattery

As far as anti-breeding arguments, I feel that mostly comes from people that don't know what breeders do. Having a "why to breed" or some such post that explains the goals of an ethical breeder, if there's not one already, I think would be nice. 

Admittedly, I was very turned off from forums such as this one. I decided to give it a try, lol. But because there are...not so nice aspects of breeding, they can lead to ugly conversations when your average pet owner reads and misinterprets the intention. There is certainly a pressure to discuss the "cutesy babies" aspect. It's a pet forum, really, and people post things that pertain to pet owners...just the way it works, I guess. I understand that there are things most people don't want to hear about, but at the same time these are the things that people who wish to breed NEED to hear. I do wish there was more open discussion on the realities of breeding.

If you decide to go the questionnaire route, I don't think it would be too much of a hassle for someone that really wants to be involved in posting and such withing the forum. I've narrowed my breeder adoption application to 5 short questions. There are a couple things you can ask a person that gives you a great idea of what kind of breeder they are.


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## Heatherl

Ok so intentional breeding was forbidden because it led to flame wars in the past, right? So what make you think, Jaguar, that it would be any different now? Or am I being too logical here? If you can moderate it correctly this time go for it otherwise don't.


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## Asiposea

Heatherl said:


> Ok so intentional breeding was forbidden because it led to flame wars in the past, right? So what make you think, Jaguar, that it would be any different now? Or am I being too logical here? If you can moderate it correctly this time go for it otherwise don't.


I think Jaguar is looking for input on reforming the forum rules on the topic because they are a little confusing. I'm hoping that with a reform, ethical breeders will want to participate more and share their valuable experiences. If there's a way to make this easier for all the mods, let's offer those ideas.


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## Jaguar

Right - reform meaning restructure, not complete removal. Trying to find a happy middle ground.


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## Heatherl

Asiposea said:


> I think Jaguar is looking for input on reforming the forum rules on the topic because they are a little confusing. I'm hoping that with a reform, ethical breeders will want to participate more and share their valuable experiences. If there's a way to make this easier for all the mods, let's offer those ideas.


I got that but if there were fights before there will be fights again- human nature is still the same and opinions on breeding are still very touchy-feely. By restricting the access, it won't stop the fights since the fights start after someone gain access to the sub-forum. I mean what have changed now compared to before that will prevent any fights? That's what I'm trying to understand. I can already see how a breeder could appear good to some people but bad to others...some people have low standards as to what is a good breeder and others have very high standards. Plus breeders have very large Facebook groups, I don't think they will even be interested in participating in a forum.


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## Heatherl

Plus a very legitimate concern is that many members here on RatForum will start a backyard breeding rattery thinking they have all the info after reading a few breeder posts There is a reason the breeder Facebook groups only accept breeders and not just anyone who wants to join.


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## Asiposea

Heatherl said:


> I got that but if there were fights before there will be fights again- human nature is still the same and opinions on breeding are still very touchy-feely. By restricting the access, it won't stop the fights since the fights start after someone gain access to the sub-forum. I mean what have changed now compared to before that will prevent any fights? That's what I'm trying to understand. I can already see how a breeder could appear good to some people but bad to others...some people have low standards as to what is a good breeder and others have very high standards. Plus breeders have very large Facebook groups, I don't think they will even be interested in participating in a forum.


Intentional breeding is a topic that's already discussed now. It crops up now and then in subforums and it's a reality that it will always happen, restriction or no restriction, subforum or no subforum. As of now, there is already a restriction that current breeders are abiding by- the question is of modifying the rules. My opinion and desire is that a modification would give back a voice to some breeders who felt silenced. As for judging breeders that are 'good' or 'bad'....that is already done here as part of the current restrictions. Breeders ARE interested in participating in this forum and not just facebook. How do I know? Well, they are responding to this very thread! But hopefully more will come back.



Heatherl said:


> Plus a very legitimate concern is that many members here on RatForum will start a backyard breeding rattery thinking they have all the info after reading a few breeder posts There is a reason the breeder Facebook groups only accept breeders and not just anyone who wants to join.


Unfortunately, backyard breeding will always occur. I doubt that the changes the mods may decide on will suddenly incite a mass rush of members breeding unethically. Indeed, I think we can help diminish unethical breeding as there would be posts and hopefully stickies dissuading the casual inquirer. If we focus on ethical/responsible breeding as would be planned, I think it will do well. Jaguar pointed out that the real concern was people joining solely to ask breeding questions- this is the tiring problem. The wonderful thing about this forum is that we take anybody and everybody....novices to pros. Ultimately, the mission of this forum is to discuss and share info in an unbiased manner. I believe this can still be done while amending the posting rules. 

But, to ease the minds of all...whatever is changed, if it doesn't work out, we can always go back to the status quo or take another step for improvement, right?


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## Kelsbels

Heatherl said:


> Plus a very legitimate concern is that many members here on RatForum will start a backyard breeding rattery thinking they have all the info after reading a few breeder posts There is a reason the breeder Facebook groups only accept breeders and not just anyone who wants to join.



Sadly people who want to be backyard breeders will do it whether or not they have access to the forum. Heck they will do it without getting confirmation from the internet. :C


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## Heatherl

Kelsbels said:


> Sadly people who want to be backyard breeders will do it whether or not they have access to the forum. Heck they will do it without getting confirmation from the internet. :C


Yes obviously but the question is: should we make it easier for them? Should we encourage it?


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## Heatherl

Ok I see what you guys are hoping for! You are hoping that the breeders will be interested by helping you with your rats' problems lol but they won't.


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## Asiposea

Heatherl said:


> Yes obviously but the question is: should we make it easier for them? Should we encourage it?


Smilesandsqueaks suggests having a 'Why to Breed' post. Information like this would show the complexity and challenge that good breeders have go through. It's more like a 'Should I?', it will call into question the reasons behind somebody's casual desire to breed and hopefully encourage them to decide otherwise.



Heatherl said:


> Ok I see what you guys are hoping for! You are hoping that the breeders will be interested by helping you with your rats' problems lol but they won't.


The breeders here already help by posting wonderful information, kudos to them! And luckily, I have my great breeder who does all the hard work for me...I get rats from her that have awesome personalities and excellent health


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## Heatherl

Asiposea said:


> Smilesandsqueaks suggests having a 'Why to Breed' post. Information like this would show the complexity and challenge that good breeders have go through. It's more like a 'Should I?', it will call into question the reasons behind somebody's casual desire to breed and hopefully encourage them to decide otherwise.The breeders here already help by posting wonderful information, kudos to them! And luckily, I have my great breeder who does all the hard work for me...I get rats from her that have awesome personalities and excellent health


Who exactly are you talking about? I'm a new member but have been reading posts for 6 months before that. There is only 1 good breeder I can think of who has also been helping people here...but feel free to list the usernames of the people you are talking about. If reputable breeders were interested in answering people's health questions they would be on here already. Why? Because even though they can't talk about genetics and say things like: " I just paired rat A with rat B" there are dozens of topics they can talk about. Furthermore they can have their website listed in their signature and post pics of their rats and litters and all of that for free! Where else would they get free advertising and such a wide outreach? Nowhere else...and they still don't care. Now REPUTABLE breeders don't even need extra free advertising, they have sold their litters before they're even born!!! So who's left? Yep that's right you got it.

How would a "why breed" or "should I breed" post discourage unethical breeder? They don't care about that at all which is why they are unethical in the first place.


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## Kelsbels

Heatherl said:


> Yes obviously but the question is: should we make it easier for them? Should we encourage it?


I don't think having information in a (hopefully) hidden forum from lurkers / passerbys will suddenly make people want to breed rats. Backyard breeders will do it regardless if they've even done online research. It's part of why they are considered unethical. It also doesn't mean that suddenly every single member on here wants to become a breeder, I don't. If it's in it's own part in the forum you can simply ignore it. 

And you're right there aren't too many active members on here known breeders, and that opening a separate forum section will not suddenly have all the help and information. I just think it's okay to try it and if it doesn't work out then, well, delete it.


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## Asiposea

Agreed, there aren't many breeders who participate at all. Hopefully that can change.

I've never ventured into the 'accidental litters' subforum, but I browsed it just now and actually saw several stickies along the lines of what was suggested earlier. Really good reads.


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## Jaguar

We've actually had a few high profile breeders on the forum over the years, including Black Wolf Rattery, Bao Varakhii, and Isamu Rats (was a moderator at one point, as well). Not everyone sticks around forever.

I don't like the idea of an "expert" panel for a lot of reasons - mostly because groups set up like that tend to turn into echo chambers.


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## Nieve5552

I think no breeding discussion rule is very fair and should be in place. But a forum category in which registered and confirmed ethical breeders discuss their breeding (especially genetics and selection of individuals for breeding towards a specific goal, such as lifespan etc) would be really interesting to the non-breeding members. 

I think a good way to do this would be to- 
* restrict access to this category. For eg, only allow members who have been members for a certain amount of time and have made certain amount of posts/threads. That way complete newbies/people only joining for breeding info can be weeded out. 
* label the registered breeders and non-breeders as such. The registered breeders are the only ones allowed to discuss their breeding methods etc, and if members labelled as non-breeders begin discussing/asking about breeding their own rats, they are reported and subsequently banned from accessing the breeding category. 

I myself would be very interested in following breeders' works in progress, im a biologist and selective breeding is really quite cool


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## Rattielover965

Nieve5552 said:


> I think no breeding discussion rule is very fair and should be in place. But a forum category in which registered and confirmed ethical breeders discuss their breeding (especially genetics and selection of individuals for breeding towards a specific goal, such as lifespan etc) would be really interesting to the non-breeding members. I think a good way to do this would be to- * restrict access to this category. For eg, only allow members who have been members for a certain amount of time and have made certain amount of posts/threads. That way complete newbies/people only joining for breeding info can be weeded out. * label the registered breeders and non-breeders as such. The registered breeders are the only ones allowed to discuss their breeding methods etc, and if members labelled as non-breeders begin discussing/asking about breeding their own rats, they are reported and subsequently banned from accessing the breeding category. I myself would be very interested in following breeders' works in progress, im a biologist and selective breeding is really quite cool


I agree with all of this,but what if someone with no intention of breeding their rats posted a question like"what are the chances of this offspring from this pair?" ?I am very interested by artificial selection, and may want to ask questions but have no intention of breeding .


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## Rattielover965

If they do make a breeder forum I think it should be a sub forum.Posts about the forum outside of the forum should not be allowed and should be deleted/reported so nobody knows about it and joins because even though they can't see it,they read about it.


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## Jaguar

Rattielover965 said:


> I agree with all of this,but what if someone with no intention of breeding their rats posted a question like"what are the chances of this offspring from this pair?" ?I am very interested by artificial selection, and may want to ask questions but have no intention of breeding .


That's not a big issue - you could ask these kinds of questions as long as you make it clear you have no intent to breed.

Now, that doesn't stop people from lying about it just to get answers - but we get a pretty good feeling for who's being honest and who isn't.


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## moonkissed

Rattielover965 said:


> I agree with all of this,but what if someone with no intention of breeding their rats posted a question like"what are the chances of this offspring from this pair?" ?I am very interested by artificial selection, and may want to ask questions but have no intention of breeding .


Breeders hate that question lol 99% of the time all we can say is black prob. Without knowing what the parents are carrying it is just a guess. You are likely to get black or agouti. As you can see from this chart...

http://www.afrma.org/pdf/colorchart.pdf


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## Rattielover965

moonkissed said:


> Breeders hate that question lol 99% of the time all we can say is black prob. Without knowing what the parents are carrying it is just a guess. You are likely to get black or agouti. As you can see from this chart...http://www.afrma.org/pdf/colorchart.pdf


I didn't mean I would ask that question,I just typed it as a example.


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## luvmy4rats

People who want to intentionally breed will breed no matter what a forum's rules are and will ask questions under the guise that they adopted their rat _already pregnant _or it was an_ oops litter_. From what I've seen there are countless numbers of 'oops litters' being talked about and it makes me question how many are in fact 'oops litters' or 'rescues already pregnant'. The rule forces folks to_ lie _about their circumstances because if they run into trouble they know nobody will help them because they intentionally bred. This means because nobody answers them (or they do and choose to flame which starts a pile on) that the rat/s in question are at risk. It is not a fair rule because if we care about the health and wellbeing of rats it should not matter how they were born. Nobody can force people not to breed. It will...never...ever...happen.

When I see folks jump on intentional breeding I feel badly for the_ rats_ who are a product of this breeding who are in need of help. To assist in the decision to intentionally breed all a group or forum can do is provide information of what can potentially go wrong with breeding to allow people to decide whether the risk is worth it or not and also how intentional breeding negatively impacts the amount of rescues in need of homes. Of course the majority of folks won't care about the latter because they will do what they want. 

Rat forum/group members need to take on a different attitude and not judge people looking for help who may be in crisis financially. Maybe a person did have disposable income but now they don't because they got laid off, injured or let go.


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