# Aggressive Boys



## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

Hi there! I'm Nico and my two rats, Sans and Papyrus are around 5 months old. I adopted them from a breeder in Rochester as emotional support animals to help me with anxiety and depression through college. I first got them 3 months ago they were very friendly with one another and wonderful to handle. Anyone could pick them up and place them on their shoulders.

However this was short lived as one month in the boys began to fight rather aggressively. To prevent injuries I split the cage into a top and bottom section and placed Sans on the top and Paps on the bottom. Paps and Sans would sometimes nip or intimidate each other through the cage separation but never to the point of injury. I figured this way they could still smell each other and be more ready for reintroduction after neutering. This worked for a while but I couldn't have them out together anymore which breaks my heart since they're brothers. Over time Sans grew more and more aggressive, biting people hard enough to draw blood. This included my girlfriend who was quite social with him since I got him. One day while attempting to pet him he bit me straight in the middle of my palm which required stitches. Since then I've been far too frightened to handle him. Papyrus has never bitten me but lately he's grown more hyper and aggressive. I'm really not sure what to do. I'm hoping a bigger cage will fix things but I won't get it for three weeks. I also can't find a vet in my area that will neuter rats so that solution is off the table. What should I do? I just want my boys to be happy and less stressed out. I don't want to exist scared of my own emotional support animals.


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

Hello! From their age I would guess that they are now getting aggressive due to their hormones. Did the boys ever hurt each other or draw blood? Can you describe their body language a bit? Are they puffing up or pushing into each other? Have either shown any aggression towards you or people they interact with or do you think the bites were more out of fear? If they bite out of aggression, that is the worrisome part. I can understand why you are afraid of him. Rat bites hurt!

I think neutering them would help a lot. You mentioned that you couldn't find a vet in your area. I had the same problem at first until I joined a local rat group on facebook and asked who they recommended. Perhaps you could find a vet by asking other rat owners in your area?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I second a neuter, for both rats. Sometimes neutering 1 rat is enough, but with your anxiety, I would go ahead and do both. Here is a list of exotic vets who will see rats, and a list of rat rescues per states. If there is a rat rescue not too far from you, they will be able to recommend a vet for you. If you adopted your rats from a breeder, she will most likely be able to help you too. http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?39485-Exotic-Veterinarian-List-amp-Info


http://www.thetravelinrat.org/rescue-list--rat-resources.html


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

Thank you both so much! 

Sans and Papyrus both puff up and scamper away if they're outside of their cage. Sans is the biter. Paps just nips hard. 

They immediately go at each other if I let them out together. They never have drawn blood but normally I separate them before it escalates but it's a constant attempt by each of them to hurt each other. Lately they even puff at me when I have them out alone or nip at my fingers from the cage door. I've never hurt them or held them uncomfortably in any way. I don't know how to help them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How much out of the cage play time do they get? Is the cage full of interesting stuff for them to explore? How big is the cage? They might be bored and more likely to get aggressive because of it too.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

I'm getting a larger cage. Unfortunately because this one is now split in half it's really small for them both. I added tons of toys to their sections but it's still just not enough.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

I was also wondering if I should attempt to resocialize Sans. I've been dropping treats by the cage as I walk by in the hopes of trust training but I'm still afraid to touch him. Do you think he'd bite me again?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

For trust training Sans, use a spoon with some very yummy treats like baby chicken food or anything that would stick to the spoon ( peanut butter ok ONLY if very thin layer spread across the spoon- as to avoid any choking hazards). The goal being that the rat has to come back for more as he can't run away with the treat. I don't know if he will try to bite you again, but he surely can feel you are aftaid which in his mind make him fearful... a spoon should give you enough confidence and protect you from a potential bite. Try to work at least 30 mins at a time while trust training him. Keep us updated on your progress


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

Some video. Lol my girlfriend is starting to say I have post traumatic rat stress disorder.

Forgive the state of the cage. I filmed just before I started cleaning (now.) So it's awfully messy and disorderly.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I think you forgot the link to the video


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

That I did. Whoops.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

https://youtu.be/VswUGyW5zdE

Again, forgive the state of the cage. I know it is far too small. I purchased a six level cage. They're actually on their best behavior in this video.

Update. Paps is still letting me hold him and pet him, so that's definitely a plus.


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

Have you ever heard of immersion training? There's a thread on it here: Immersion Training

It's quite a long read, but I've heard it's really really useful for socializing aggressive rats.

You also mentioned that they've never drawn blood. The general rule of thumb in the rat world is no blood, no foul. Some rats seem to have pretty vicious arguments, but they could just be working out dominance or a disagreement. What exactly did they do when they would fight?

As for the cage, I would strongly recommend putting something solid in place of the wire separating the two rats. If they really are fighting, the rat on top might get his toes nipped. :/

Also, it's a good rule to never ever feed through the cage bars. It really increases your chances of getting bitten. xP The person who owned my boys before I adopted them routinely fed them treats through the bars. I've had them for just over 6 months now, and I still get the occasional nip from Samson if I don't wash my hands well after eating, even though I haven't fed him treats through the bars a single time. It's just not a good habit to get into, because it's very hard to get them to stop expecting it.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

Wow! Thanks! I'll heed your advice.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

So I gave my hand at a little immersion training with Sans. Things went kind of okay at first. He climbed on top of me and let me pet him and things were going pretty okay until he suddenly lunged at my hand and started biting and scratching. I'm assummimg this was an attempt at asserting alpha status. Unfortunately I don't have thick gloves and don't want to get eaten up so I put him back in his cage. But that was our first interaction in almost a month! So I'm kind of proud.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Whoa that's bad. Did you handle other rats before or used clothes that smelled like your other rats or other pets? Rats pee mark and so even if you haven't used the clothes in a few days, they would still smell like other rats to a rat. Can you tell us more about the circumstances like where did the interaction took place, did you move around? New territory or territory that might smell like other rats...after how much time did he bite you, any idea what could have trigger it...?


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I had a hormonal aggressive boy who was aggressive to me and my other rats. Bit my finger to the bone on a few occasions just for petting him. The only thing that helped and I tried for months before I resorted to it was neutering him. Once he was neutered he was a whole new rat overnight. Sans sounds like he's going through something similar. I hope you can get him neutered soon.


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## MilkyNico (Nov 3, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Whoa that's bad. Did you handle other rats before or used clothes that smelled like your other rats or other pets? Rats pee mark and so even if you haven't used the clothes in a few days, they would still smell like other rats to a rat. Can you tell us more about the circumstances like where did the interaction took place, did you move around? New territory or territory that might smell like other rats...after how much time did he bite you, any idea what could have trigger it...?


That's bad? You don't want to know how the first bite looked. It's still healing. 

I handled Papyrus (his brother) before handling him. Using a transport box I placed him (Sans) on a mattress on the floor in my room which was neutral ground for him and for a while things were okay. He avoided me at first but I remained in his face and pet him making sure he could see my hand as I did. His body language dictated he was largely ignoring me as he explored his new surroundings. Eventually he crawled up onto my lap which I thought was a good sign and all of a sudden he lunged grabbing onto my wrist with his claws and snagged his teeth on the back of my hand. So I took two socks and placed them over my hand for protection before returning to where I left him to explore on the floor. He was skiddish and constantly ready to go for my non-covered arm. He even looked like he was going to go for my torso and thighs at one point. It was then I decided that I was under equipped and returned him to his cage. 

Later that night my residence hall had a fire drill and the alarm is jarring even for me, let alone two ratties. Apparently my girlfriend was able to pick him up and put him in the transport box using her bare hands. 

I really don't know if he's beyond salvaging or not. I'm trying to get the breeder to take him back since she's far more experienced than me. As for Papy I'm looking into getting a spayed female partner for him. I feel like I'm giving up and I hate it but Sans will probably have a much happier life with someone more experienced than me.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I wouldn't give up on him just yet. Next time start with a shower and fresh clothes. Don't use any body lotion. When he bites you, do a high pitched loud eep sound (same sound rats do when they protest or feel pain). Have some yummy food on a fork to give to him. Chances are he wants to play but bite too hard because he doesn't know it hurts, he doesn't realize that you have no fur to protect your skin.


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

Helping an aggressive rat can take some time. I would go out and buy a good pair of gloves before trying again.

You've only tried it once. This kind of thing doesn't happen over night. xP And once you've got the gloves, you have to remember you can't put him back in the cage when he bites, because that's really just reinforcing the idea that biting gets him what he wants. :/


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