# breeding petstore rats



## cemf123 (Apr 2, 2007)

i'm on F3 cross on petstore lineage and none of them has had breathing issues at all. just wating for the F4 to become old enough.to breed them. does anyone know how to get a male interested in breeding? because this male i have from my first cross doesn't want to and he ignores the females. oh BTW i am inbreeding them and no problems have occured thus far in the F4.

"Inbreeding is defined by Merriam-Webster as:
1: the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock 
Inbreeding is used extensively in the breeding of many species and can be used either to set a positive trait or identify a potentially negative trait depending upon the choices made. 
When two unknown rats, or even rats from different known lines, are brought together for a breeding the offspring may all appear to be robust and free of any unwanted genetic issues. 

Test breeding the siblings and/or breeding an offspring back to the parent can help to identify undesirable traits by doubling up on the reccesives of the two different parents. 

It is said, by some, that test breeding can create offspring with genetic issues. This is true at times, and yet it is important that this be done so that the health and viability of the new line can be evaluated and possibly discontinued if there are problems. 
Without multiple close test breeding negative recessive traits are swept under the rug and may be perpetuated indefinitely only to resurface later in a much larger gene pool."

"In laboratories a line is not even considered inbreed until the 20th generation. Inbred lab strains are often achieved by breeding brother to sister in each generation."

also if anyone needs help as far as genetics go or anything to do with breeding i can help also.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Why are you bothering with petstore rats when there are some wonderful lines out there already established, so you don't have to go thru your test breeding. 
You may not have respiratory issues, but what are these rats finally passing of? Have any died yet? What age are they going?


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

The problem with breeding rats with an entirely unknown genetic history, is that you pretty much have to keep several generations until they die, simply to identify any problems in their line. So it'll be another year or 2 years before you'd ever really begin to know if there are any problems.

Your best bet, if you really want to invest in making a new line, which may never work out and years of work be wasted, is to not breed them when they are immediately able to breed. Wait until they are getting around 9 months or so and breed then, so you aren't breeding as many litters. They'll all be older and you'll have fewer to take care of in the long run and it'll help you figure out if there are any genetic problems.

I would invest in good breeding stock from a reputable breeder. That way part of the work is already done and you are less likely to end up with serious problems in the line.


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## cemf123 (Apr 2, 2007)

well i live in Indiana and there's not that many breeders around here. also the only one that has died actually put to sleep because the cat got a hold of her and bit her bad. cost was $40 but i would have rather put her to sleep then watch her suffer. also father is still here no problems. 1 baby had a mamiary tumor and got that removed. but i have given away 10 rats to friends. and as far as test breeding goes fine with me. i would even test breed pedigreed rats as well. i mean nobody can truely say that their lines are clean eitheir.

edit i have been trying to contact breeders to see if they would give me some for breeding and thats been 2 weeks ago. i would love to breed siamese rats but no breeders around that are willing to sell some that aren't just pets.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

What might help you with the breeders if asking one of them to mentor you. And no, a breeder can't say that any line is entirely clean, but many times they are lines the breeder has worked very hard on and been very selective about what genes they introduce. Some lines have existed for many years. Others are the combination of two very old lines that were bred into another. It is just best to get the oldest lines possible because you are less likely to run into any problems. They are many more generations removed from their 'petstore' relatives.

Keep contacting the breeders and see what you can arrange. They might be afraid you'll be breeding their rats with petstore rats. Many breeders specifically request that you only breed their rats with their permission and usually with a doe or buck they have approved. Talk to them about it, ask why they wouldn't adopt out a rat for breeding to you and see if you can resolve their fears.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

You might want to go to Ohio. I live in Indiana as well and havn't been able to contact ANY breeders around here. No one answers my e-mails D: It truely sucks.

But if you have the money, time and know what you are doing I'm all for a new breeder being established in Indiana. It sounds complicated and dangerous though D: I hope you can find an established line.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

I didnt realsie it was so complicated-i was just going to borrow a male from someone i meet online for a dirty weekend if i wanted to get my girls pregnant!


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I would definately recommend some of the ratteries in OH. I do not yet own any of them, but I have spoken in length to many of the people that run them and seen many people's posts about getting babies and I've never seen anyone be disappointed. If you'd like a nudge towards the right ones, just let me know.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Absolute Mischief Rats is fantastic, and RaffinHouse Rattery has a really great reputation.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

3 words on breeding petstore rats: Don't try it.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

I'll go with one word 

NO!


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

XD Nice.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Dont pet shop rats come from breeders?


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Not good breeders. They come from people who breed pet store stock rats. Most rats are inbred with subpar genetics. No accredited, ethical breeder would ever sell to pet stores.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

A good reputable breeder is someone who breeds for health and temperment before looks. And they breed selectively, not for quantity. In most, if not all cases, their breeding stock is their beloved pets and their lines are ones they have worked on extensively to make sure they are problem free as possible. 

They look into the quality of each line they work with and their health and temperment before they breed. And they find homes for their rats, instead of selling them to someone who will try to place them. And they usually limit their number of litters so they have time to socialize everyone and only breed when they have enough room to house them and homes for the babies. They are kept in the best of conditions, as far as cages, food, toys, and lifestyle. They breed because they love the animals, knowing that they'll never make a profit. They want to provide a high quality companion.

With petstores and their breeders, they are rarely the pets of the breeder and are often just the bred for the profit of the sale. It is common knowledge that you are likely to get a more 'well-rounded' puppy from a private owner or small scale breeder than you would from a petstore or large scale breeder. They are often doing it soley for profit, instead of love for the animal and the animals have minimal living conditions. That often being only that which is required for them to live. 

They don't care much about the quality of the companion, but the money they'll make from selling it. Usually with them, as long as the dog is fertile and of full stock, for example, they'll breed it. Personality doesn't usually come into play. 

I see this all the time at work. A woman who breeds English Bulls. She found one abandoned on the side of the road, tied up to a guard rail. She bred her with one of her males and one of the babies was born missing one eye and with facial deformity. Another has hip problems. And some of the pups later got parvo because of faulty vaccinations. Yet she still continues to breed that female despite the problems with some of the pups. Simply because she can still make a profit by doing so. She actually joked about one who came in with parvo (and who is also the one missing an eye) She intends to breed her to 'make up' for the cost of the parvo treatment.

I'm sure you've heard all the talk about puppy mills. Well- breeders who breed for petstores are just that. That is where most petstores, especially the large chains, get their puppies. My local PetLand for example, gets puppy mill puppies for the most part. And they are often amaciated and ill when they arrive because of the horrible conditions at the breeder's location.

They are horrible and very callous when it comes to their animals. They keep them in the tiniest of cages, don't feed them properly, and often don't bother to socialize those they will use as breeding stock. And mills aren't confined to just puppies. They involve cats, rats, hamsters, any animal you can find for sale at a petstore.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Its so complicated im over whelmed! Ive never thought were the animals in pet shops come from-sound like they'd be better off in a lab. Im going to watch what kinda place i shop. I can see ive got alot to learn. So even if my girls continue to develop well and i find a quality male to do the buisness i shouldent? I was thinking of adopting next time so maybe a few well chosen guys?


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Don't breed rats, period. Especially pet store or rescue rats.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Gutted  i wanted babies!


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

If you want babies, contact rescues in your area and see if you can foster a litter. Again, only breeders with pedigreed rats should be breeding. Considering the fact that you've very much a newbie it seems, you shouldn't be thinking about breeding at all.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

i get the impression its a full time job! my brain is scrambled with strains and varieties and diets! Do pregnant does ever need fostering or adoption?


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes. In fact, I'm fostering a litter currently; this is my second. Once you've spent a few more months researching and learning, you should start contacting local rescues and asking if they need any foster homes for litters or pregnant does. Even if they currently don't, they'll have your information for the future.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

How much would i need to be with them if the mum stayed with them and there were no hitches?
how much does a vet assisted birth cost?
how much would i need to be home if there mum regected them?
Is it an orphaned litter? do you work from home?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

ladylady said:


> How much would i need to be with them if the mum stayed with them and there were no hitches?
> how much does a vet assisted birth cost?
> how much would i need to be home if there mum regected them?
> Is it an orphaned litter? do you work from home?


Bringing up babies is a lot of hard work. A lot of expense too even if there are no hitches. With unknown genetics they may seem healthy until the entire litter starts dying at 12 months old from heart attacks, or get CHF at 15 months, or are prone to myco from weak immune systems all their lives.

And if mom decides to ignore them and stop feeding you have to handfeed every 2-3 hours for 2 weeks. You will lose almost all the babies, some might survive if you are incredibly lucky.

Vet assisted birth? Hmmm...could be $500+ depending on the situation


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

realized I posted in the wrong place...ooops


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

can you get insurance for a pregnant rat?
ive been reading your link its gorgeous


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

i didnt apreciate where pot shop rats come from before i bought them. I had contacted several people regarding adoption but no one got back to me. Im gutted i dindt even know there were three proper breeders within 10 miles of me  . Im really pleased with Lola and Poppy but i dont even want to buy food from highstreet pet shops now i know more. Im getting my confidence with Lola and Poppy. I was going to adopt two boys but the idea of fostering is growing on me-i could give rats in a rescue a better wait for permenent placement? Look after them if people go away of fall ill ect? Im getting insurance but i have to wait untill there 8 weeks old.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

I'm also in Indiana, and it's absolutely not true that there aren't any breeders around our area. There is Dazzle Me Rattery in Chicago, as well as several other breeders in Illinois. As mentioned there are a few ratteries in Ohio, and there are also several more in Michigan. There used to be one in Kentucky, but their website is down so I'm not sure if they're still operating.

Indiana is flanked on all sides by rat breeders. There is no part of this state that you can live in without being more than 5 hours drive from one of them. And that's not counting the various shelters and rescues.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Lady - why, exactly, are you so intent on having rat babies?


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Im enjoying the responsibility of Lola and Poppy, watching them progress. ive been going through alot of difficult stuff in my life recently and they have been there, needing cared for-i have little lives to look after and its more important than worrieing about my problems (my doctor was really pleased I had got pets!). Im gona have to do it in a holiday time if at all cus I dont have the time to bottle feed Babies if anything went wrong. Im keeping it in my mind n if I still want to do it in a few months all take annual leave. How did you find the time to look after your little bundles of joy Night?


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm glad you seem to finally be realizing that babies are hard to take care of. Though, from your reply it almost seems as though you want them as something to fill a void in your life, which in my mind isn't too healthy. But, I digress...

I work from home, and am able to devote a lot of time to my animals. Even my work revolves around animals, so it's perfect. I don't always have a foster litter, though - I'm just the resident baby-raiser for Huron Valley Rat Rescue here in Michigan


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

aww thats lovely  i wouldent get the chance to do it many times untill i retire cus i work long days ect


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I haven't found any reputable breeders in Kentucky at all, except for the one that Niobe and Athme came from, and they no longer breed. There is a breeder about 45 minutes from me, in WV, but she usually keeps all of the kittens herself. And right now she is in quarantine because several are sick and have died suddenly. She probably brought something home accidently from a petstore.

Because of the placement of many of the breeders, I hope to begin a small breeding program using reputable lines from my mentor and that of the one I got my girls from, to provide an alternative to those further away. There are so few breeders close enough to my area and further south, that I want to give them an opportunity to own socialized pet rats from day 1 that they get them. That and I hope to improve the pet rats down here, as we've gone too long with irresponsible breeders who don't pay much mind to what they are doing.


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