# Muscle tensing and drool... seizure? :(



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Over the past few days I've seen my ratty Bear kind of... clench up all his muscles, including his face. It reminds me of the face we make when we eat really sour foods. I've only seen it happen twice before tonight (a few days ago), and both times it lasted only a second or less so I didn't worry about it too much. A few minutes ago, however, I was greeting my ratties when I noticed Bear drooling pretty profusely (I saw maybe 5 drops fall from his mouth over ~10 seconds). Then, he tensed up for another 5 seconds or so. When he stopped, he seemed a little dazed for a few minutes and moved to a corner and didn't want to be touched. I noticed that he pooped, as well--just one little rat pellet poop. After a few minutes, he started acting like his normal, incredibly friendly and curious self. 

Could this be a seizure? How urgently should he be seen by a vet? It doesn't seem to be happening frequently or anything, and he doesn't seem to be a danger to himself or his cage-mate, Ziggy. I'm low on money right now and am waiting for a paycheck, but if it is urgent I will by all means bring him in ASAP.

Thank you guys <3 I'm a new rat owner, I've had these two for only 3 weeks. They are both around 5 months old.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It sounds more like a choking session instead. They are trying to move the stuck food item by breaking it down with saliva and "retching". They will pull their ears back,their eyes squinch, and they push their head down and back into their shoulders. They really don't like being touched when they are choking so you just watch them carefully and watch them get on with it. They almost always work it out.

Certain foods can cause choke more than others like sticky foods, white doughy bread, peanut butter, potatoes, rice, etc...all these things that make us reach for our drink because they are sticky or dry in our mouth can cause a rat to choke. Greedy rats scarfing down lab blocks can choke too...was he just eating something?


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I've also seen this when rats have chewed a toxic wood, in my case one of mine got access to some lilac wood.

Is his face swollen at all?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Oh, thank god. I feared the worst. For some reason I had read about the symptoms of choking but I never thought that the tensing could be retching. That makes a lot of sense, I think. He must be a really sloppy and fast eater because I'm careful to never feed them anything sticky--fruits and veggies only! I don't really remember whether he had just eaten or not--he eats a lot, so I wouldn't be surprised if he had just scarfed down a block. Is there any way to encourage him to eat slower? I don't want this happening very frequently... It seems dangerous, even though it usually works itself out. 

I don't THINK he's chewed any bad wood... His face may be a tad swollen, but nothing unusual. His eyes and nose have been a tiny bit irritated too, but I've been assuming that is from the recent move (moved their cage from my boyfriend's apartment to mine recently). I am pretty sure all the wood I have is rat safe--at least, it was all marketed for rats. Ziggy hasn't showed any signs of sickness and he has been chewing on all the same things.

Edit: He has been *particularly* grumpy in the past two or three days. He has even hissed at me once or twice when trying to pick him up. Admittedly, I have been bothering him during the day more than I probably should, but it seems out of character for him to be so sassy...


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Is he better now in terms of the drooling and choking? Most sessions only last a short.time, unless he's hurt his throat. If he's still regularly doing this he does need to get to a vet. If he's just drooley with a puffy face he could have a blocked saliva duct. When my guy had this it took about 3 days to calm down and I was advised to use anti inflamatorys, though he would have probably recovered fine on his own. If he's still choking though whatever got stuck may have scratched his throat which may mean some anti inflamatorys would help. That tends to resolve in a few days too. I have seen these symptoms (though a lot more intense and noisy) lead to something worse, but only once in a friends rat, but if it sticks around let me know.

Getting grumpy could be him feeling uncomfortable and irritable. Is he acting normal apart from that? Not acting confused etc.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Yeah, he seems to be much better. He isn't drooling at all anymore. Must have just been a little food stuck somewhere, I think. 

However, he has gotten very aggressive in the last few days. I made another post about it since I don't think it's related. The drooling and retching hasn't happened since last night, and he doesn't seem confused at all.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

That's brill (ignoring the grumpyness) I know how scary it is when they choke.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I was terrified  the poor boy. choking one night and hormonally off his rocker the next!


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Hi again, 

Another freakish episode happened tonight, just now. Bear was acting normal all night, not particularly aggressive or mopey or anything. I was watching TV and doing my own thing when I hear intense movement. I look over to see Bear leaping and bounding all over the cage, with Ziggy looking kind of confused and definitely not involved. I ran over and Bear was scratching in a corner, wedging his nose between the bars. He finally stopped moving and was just breathing very heavily. He has a little blood on the side of his nose, presumably from pushing it so hard between the bars. Ziggy sniffed him and prodded him a little, and I watched to see if he was going to freak out again. After a few seconds it became clear that he was done, so I carefully picked him up and snuggled him in a blanket. He was sitting in my lap in the blanket, entirely not moving, while I typed most of this. He just started moving around again, squirming away from me so I let him back in his cage. What just happened? Will he be okay? Should I rush him to a vet? The closest vet that I would trust with a rat is about an hour away... 

He is huddled up in a corner right now, seems relatively alert...??

What just happened?

Edit: I believe that when he stopped moving, there was a drop of water around his mouth as well.

Edit again: Okay, in just watching him for a few minutes he has done the face-squelchy-retching thing twice. Is he choking again??!


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

How is he now? It does worry me that it's happened again, it may be that his throat is still a little sore from the last choking experience so it's happened again. Was he eating at the time? Its hard to say as this has happened only twice but if it happens again i would look into feeding him on soft food for a couple of weeks (maybe soaked lab blocks, or eggy rice) to see if it's him choking on food or some other explaination. It may be worth having a vet look down his throat too, to check for any inflamation, and give his neck a good feel over, are there any lumps or bumps around there.

It's also worth giving him a good looking over for neurological symptoms, though i would still say it's more likley to be choking. Here's a few basic checks;
* Watch him walking from above, can he move in a straight line or does he pull to one side. What's his gait like, is it normal and bouncy or is it dragging.
* Get level with him sat on a work surface or shelf, how does he hold his head, is it tilted, to one side, or odd in any way. 
*Put him so he's sitting on your hand, is he bearing his weight evenly?
*Watch him eat, does he hold his food properly, is he dropping it more than useual or pulling funny faces.
*Watch him wash, do his hands cup properly or are they very stiff, is he coordinated when he does it or a bit all over the place

Finally do you know how to do a ratty heimlich manouver, in case he chokes badly and needs your help?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He seems fine now, maybe a little sleepy but cleaning himself and moving around and drinking water as usual. I'm not sure if he was eating at the time, I didn't see him until he was rocketing around the cage in a panic. If this happens again I'll bring him to the vet. 

I'll check the walking things tonight. He bears weight evenly in my hand and seems to wash properly. He sometimes eats only holding food in one hand with his other hand on the ground but I think that only happens when the food is mostly eaten so he *can* hold it in one hand. 

I've read about the "fling". I am only supposed to intervene if he starts turning blue though, right?

Thanks so much for your help !


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Yep the fling is only for emergencies, but good to know in case he's prone to this.

Glad he's more normal again now


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm not convinced that this is gagging... For one, he doesn't ever open his mouth--wouldnt you expect him to? However, he did do it a few times right after eating a bit. I caught him doing it (a quick one) on video, could you take a look and let me know what you think? I will call the vet tomorrow and see when we can get him in. 

This is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0BzTCZf_2w

They seem to surprise him, too--he'll be laying down with his eyes shut and then do it and then, fully awake, shift or move around his cage and lay back down.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I know what you mean, that isn’t like gagging at all, it’s like something hurt him suddenly or he just felt very weird, maybe dizzy or sick, but then he was quickly back to normal. His movement is very odd in that one too, the kind of ground hogging behaviour, I would expect a rat to move much more on his feet. Does he move around more normally most of the time. Can you get any other videos of him moving around, eating and the like?


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Can you take longer videos of him?

I did notiice him swallowing at the beginning of the video and it looks like the beginning of the choke movement but that's all. It doesn't look like a classic seizure at all either,but it does look a bit neurological.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm in class so I don't have time to upload to youtube but this link should work to get to my picasa album of videos. 
https://plus.google.com/photos/1085...ms/5707654843621887985?authkey=CLu1hr6y1_eaLw

Let me know if it doesnt... I can take a longer one tonight, too. He has been slinking a little low to the ground lately. He also seems afraid/unable to hop around. I've rigged my cage temporarily so that he can walk from level to level, but it's a bit concerning that he doesnt want to jump. Is he dizzy?

I emailed the weird cough/choke video to the vet I plan to see next week just in case Bear doesn't do it at the vet. i haven't made an appt yet but will after classes are done.

edit: the last video on that album should be the long one of him walking around "normally".


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

It's a hard one, he seems very normal in the last vid, but the other two would worry me. He seems so lathargic in the first (does he normally wag his tail) and the second is a very uncomfortable face verging on neurological ish. I would get him checked at the vets, ask him to look down his throat. One of my friends had a rat with cancer in his throat, he was far worse motions but showed pain when swallowing a bit like this. Whilst I doubt its throat cancer it might be a injury or similar. The floppyness reminds me a lot of heart issues, but he seems very active in the other one. Does he have breif spells of activity followed by longer spells of floppyness? In terms of neurogical I would expect him to gradually show more symptons for longer each time, but its hard to know until it gets worse.

Hugs, hes a gorgeous lad, this must be very hard.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Frankly I'm not sure what is normal, since he's so new to me. However, he started wagging his tail like that before any of the other issues cropped up, so that might indicate that it's normal--or that it was just one of the first symptoms. I really don't know. He seems to only do it when he's happy, though. He does seem to either be active and normal OR floppy. If I pick him up during a floppy spell and start to play with him and set him down, he does get up and sniff around for a bit but then go lay back down. 

He is gorgeous! He was so so so so friendly and curious and sweet before any of these issues started coming out. I thought he was perfect! Fortunately, he doesn't seem to be in any pain or discomfort--at least when he's not making the owwy face.

I just called the vet and they do walk-ins all Saturday morning so I'll go there in the AM tomorrow. I hope it's not expensive....... bah  stupid Bear, getting sick two weeks before my big (and much needed) paycheck!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I echo Isamurat, that last video he looks great, the other 2 are very worriesome. The only thing thevet can do is give him an all over exam, look into his throat for issues, feel over his abdomen, belly, body for any signs of discomfort. Is his poop and urine normal?

he's not very old is he?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Yeah, his poop and pee seem normal. Maybe a litttttle on the slightly soft side but nothing close to diarrhea. 

No! He was born in mid-March. Quite young, which is why this seems so surprising.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Well the vet just replied to my email with: "I can't tell anything from the video, sorry. My knowledge of rat diseases is limited, but I's be happy to take a look." I think I'll still bring Bear in the morning because there's really nowhere else to go near here. He should be able to at least check his throat and check for lumps and bumps. I hate to pay a good-sized vet bill just to be told he doesn't see anything, but I also don't want it to be something the vet COULD have seen. :/


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Not to keep spamming my own post, but I have another video on the Picasa album (https://picasaweb.google.com/108556404585263343314/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCLu1hr6y1_eaLw) called "Normal again, not jumping". This shows him acting pretty normal, but notice that he avoids jumping from level to level and instead carefully uses the hammock-path I made. 

Just a few minutes ago Ziggy and Bear were playing outside their cage in the rat-proofed area I made. Bear went back in and went up to the top level to clean himself. I was looking away (as always, it seems!) when he started freaking out again, jumping frantically all over the cage and outside of the cage and crazy. I couldn't even keep my eye on him he was moving so fast. He finally darted under the door to his cage, as seen here: 
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...AAxM/AxpnRpFxaDk/s720/IMG_20120831_225702.jpg

He eventually ran inside his cage and is now hiding in the corner. What the ****?! The vet will see him tomorrow. I'll keep an eye out for any retching(?) tonight.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Jeez, he just panicked AGAIN and this time he somehow ripped out at least three toenails (that's how many were on the paper towel I was using to clean him off and try to stop the bleeding). I don't have any flour or cornstarch or anything. I think he is in pain... I don't know what to do. I have a small aquarium (10gal) to bring him in the vet tomorrow. Should I pad it with blankies and let him sleep there? I'm worried in the night he might rip out more or otherwise hurt himself. 

I also just noticed that the entire underside of his mouth (his chin area, entire bottom jaw) is wet... at least I think it is. I'm letting him take care of himself in his cage for now, I think he's had enough trauma today. I don't know if the wet jaw is from drooling or from licking his foot or what. 

$#*%@$, I just want him to be okay  I'm at such a loss of what to do. I hope the vet tomorrow can help.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

That sounds very much like either a blocked salvia duct or something going on in his throat or mouth. If you feel around his throat and neck is it puffy or swollen at all?.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

In that last video I see things.

1) he's scratching suddenly a lot, which might indicate ectoparasites,.you might want to consider treating him if you find any scabs on his neck/shoulder, or any moving buggies on his back/rump.
2) he's doing the hind leg rake, and he's got a lot of buck grease for a younger boy, he might end up with hormonal aggression...watch the nipping for any changes.
3) his hind end does seem weaker...you might want to make solid ramps for your cage just for him, as he may have fallen and hurt himself.

BUT the drool...and the panicking.

situations I have seen drool
1) choking (on food item or from mass in throat)
2) tooth issues (have you smelt his mouth for an infected smell?)
3) seizures  Seizures range from just a stop and stillness for a few minutes to a full blown pawing the air, drooling, falling down and flopping like a fish. 

AFTER his "episodes" how does he act? Do you see him or does he hide? Often you can tell its seizures by how out of it they seem after they stop. But be careful about handling, I had a lovely sweet rescue boy who unbeknownst to me was having seizures, and he would come out of them super aggressive. He disembowelled an old cagemate the first time, the 2nd time he attacked me. So watch the body language.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

This was my old Talty prior to him having seizures











And this is him right after his 1st










My vet was gone for a month to recover from surgery, and I managed his seizures for that time on my own, so there was no anti-spasmodics tried.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Bear and I went to the vet today. He admitted he wasn't particularly familiar with rats but I can't seem to find anyone around here who is, so I guess I can't do much about that. He wasn't sure what to say, especially since Bear seemed fine there. He mentioned trying valium to try to quell his panic episodes, but I am wary of that especially because of his lethargy. He gave me 10-days worth of Baytril, so I'm going to try that. It will also hopefully quell any infection that might try to set in on his owwy ripped toes. If it isn't any better in a week, I'll bring him back and possibly try an anti-seizure med??

He doesn't seem to have any lumps or bumps, and the vet looked in his throat and said it looked fine. I have noticed something else--I've been finding little hard globs of yellow-y stuff in their cage occasionally. Kinda looks and feels like a little dried drop of hot-glue--kinda plasticy, flexible feeling. When I saw a wet one, it was a mostly opaque, white, squishy thing kinda like a booger. They range in size from small like a sunflower seed to pencil eraser size. Any idea what these might be? The vet kept one to check out and try to diagnose. His initial guess was that it was a hard thing in his pee, like a kidney stone kind of. Would that explain his scrunched face? Painful to excrete? If I see him make the face again, I will check for a little glob.

Edit: After a panic episode, he tries to hide but I usually bother him to make sure he's okay. He literally just sits there for a few minutes. I can pick him up and he's kinda floppy and unresponsive. Could that be a seizure? What is happening during the panicking right before? 

RE: the aggression, actually about a week ago before all this weird behavior started, I had posted on the behavior board about aggression. He was displaying clear hormonal issues and had bit me twice, randomly. I will probably get him neutered once he is healthy again. 

Additionally, just a quick semi-unrelated question. I am thinking of getting them another cage mate (and a ferret nation one story cage). Of course I will wait until Bear is back to normal (hopefully he gets there  ), but would it be easier to try to introduce a spayed female or another male? The reason I am thinking of a third is that Bear (again, when healthy) pesters Ziggy all the time about playing when Ziggy clearly wants to clean himself/eat/not play. I think a third friend would take some of the pressure off of him. Plus, in the event of one of their deaths (which I hope never ever happens, but that's unrealistic) I want the surviving rat to not be alone.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

hahaha you found a penis plug, which is totally normal. Your boy is fully producing smegma and is likely hormonal. A neuter might solve a lot of issues. a nice spayed girl can be a perfect companion for 2 males  You will get more of the colony "feel" than even 3 males together...I adore mixed colonies, they are usually my best and happiest groups overall 

You should call your vet and let him know he can stop worrying about the penis plug

http://ratguide.com/health/aging_degenerative_disorders/vesical_proteinaceous_plug.php


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Is it really? Haha, that's funny. That was one of my initial thoughts but I figured if he was cleaning his weewee, he would just like... eat the smegma or something. That's actually really gross now that I think about it. I'm glad he's spitting it out! Is it normal to find them everywhere? They stick to my fleece bedding and are kinda gross. 

Do you think it would be safe to neuter him before I figure out these other issues? I think it would be sad for him to have a panic episode while healing. He'd probably rip out all his stitches or something. The more I read, I think he is having seizures. The second section of this page in particular sounds exactly like what Bear is going through, the poor boy. 
http://www.ratfanclub.org/seizures.html


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He seems to be reluctant to drink, and if I pinch his neck skin, it takes a little while to sink back down. He's really lethargic right now--I'm on my bed with him and he's just lying between my legs under a towel. He is pretty diligent about cleaning himself but not as much about eating and drinking. I made a yogurt and vitamin water 'smoothie' and have been trying to help him drink that. He really seems to be not doing well, but also not in pain... The poor boy


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He had another episode. He was sitting under a blanket on my lap when it started, I tried to keep him contained but I couldn't. He flew like a bottle rocket around my floor, definitely with no sense of direction of purpose. He eventually stopped, and I picked him up and am now cuddling g him in a blanket. I think he has little control over his body right now. I was inspecting his toes carefully and he didn't object, he stayed exactly as I placed him, etc. Broke another toenail. Someone help please  I might go get anti seizure meds tomorrow... I do t know what the antibiotics are gonna do. Probably nothing.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Oh ****. I wonder if he's having mini-strokes? 

Forget the neutering for now.  See if you can get him the anti-spasmodic.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't know, really. I think the lethargy and temporary paralysis could be a symptom of the seizure, couldn't it? I know in people sometimes they are kinda unable to move afterwards for a little bit. He regains his ability to move normally after ~5 minutes. 4 times since yesterday morning so far...


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I would say seizures are more likley, that can cause drooling too. Poor chap, I would try anti epilepsy meds and maybe a steroid incase it is stroke or tumour behind it.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I found a nearby vet who specializes in exotics/smalls. I'll call tomorrow (closed today) and try to get him in tomorrow or Tuesday. Are there any tests I should request or should we just try the meds? He seems to be eating and drinking a bit more today which is good. If it is a tumor or stroke or something, what is the prognosis for life expectancy, quality of life, etc? What about epilepsy?


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Epiliepsy seems relatively well managed in rats on the right meds, i think it's diagnosed via trying the meds generally, rats with the right medication stop having seizures, though it can get worse and the meds then need to be upped. A tumour is less good but steroids can give a good to fair quality of life for a while, in some cases months or happines but they can't be cured. Strokes are difficult, they generally do get better, steroids help, however once a rat has one it is prone to reoccurences. I think Vivoten is a drug that can prevent them or minimises the chances. However i don't know if thats a brand name only in the uk.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah, I see. I think epilepsy seems most likely right now, and if it doesn't respond to meds then maybe it's a tumor causing the epilepsy. I have a hard time believing that they are strokes simply because they match the description of epilepsy so well and that the weakness doesn't seem one-sided or anything like that. This morning he was laying down like this, which is similar to how lilspaz's rat looked (the inward-turned feet, mostly). Right now I'm mostly just trying to minimize stimuli (no fluorescent lights, no music, etc) and make sure he's eating and drinking (a little less than usual but he hasn't stopped entirely which is good). Anything else I should be doing while I wait to see the vet?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been watching him for the past 30 minutes or so and he just made a really squinched face (the one in the video a while ago) that lasted longer than usual. He also started shaking a little bit, particularly his hands. This leads me to think that the squiched-face as well as the thrashing are both seizures... I hope the vet has some answers tomorrow. And I really, really hope he's not in pain.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Yes you have seizures...time for anti-seizure meds. 

When my lovely Taltos had a seizure he would sleep beside me. I would put my hand gently on his body...I would feel the twitches start. I first watched his nose wrinkle up and down then it spread up his head til he was jerking his head, then his paws would bat and then full blown seizure...one thing I want to warn YOU about, is be careful when handling him. I found he calmed down in my hands but if a rat during a seizure bites down its horribly painful and they don't let go until its over. So stay away from his mouth while he's seizing. Pad his cage carefully, remove ALL heavy and hard objects like food dishes he could fall on and whack his head on etc. hang hammocks everywhere, bank his bedding up the sides of the base of the cage.

http://ratguide.com/health/neurological/seizures.php

For Talty I had to give him injections of dexamethasone...this helped him come out of the seizures quite quickly, but he was immobile and tired afterwards.

I am so sorry. I hope your new vet can help, send the squinchy-face video to them if possible. Write down ALL the symptoms you see, as its easy to forget things when you are at the appointment.

((hugs))


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Seeing the vet at 4:30 (central USA time, 4 hours from now), gonna get on some good meds. Can it be done orally or is injection better? I haven't yet SEEN the start of one of the panic and run around seizures but there is no way I could catch him and hold him during one of those. They only last a few seconds, but he can cover a mighty impressive amount of area in that time. 

Should I move him to a padded tank? I am wary of removing him from his brother, as I have heard it can be hard to reintroduce after this. In about a month I am upgrading to a FN cage that I can pad very well and keep only one level (plus hammocks). Should I remove all the levels and replace with hammocks? Ziggy might hate me for it (they don't seem to love hammocks, surprisingly) but if its for his bro's health he can just get over it. I will remove his ceramic dish for food and just put the food on the floor when I get home.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> Thanks for the info. Seeing the vet at 4:30 (central USA time, 4 hours from now), gonna get on some good meds. Can it be done orally or is injection better? I haven't yet SEEN the start of one of the panic and run around seizures but there is no way I could catch him and hold him during one of those. They only last a few seconds, but he can cover a mighty impressive amount of area in that time.
> 
> Should I move him to a padded tank? I am wary of removing him from his brother, as I have heard it can be hard to reintroduce after this. In about a month I am upgrading to a FN cage that I can pad very well and keep only one level (plus hammocks). Should I remove all the levels and replace with hammocks? Ziggy might hate me for it (they don't seem to love hammocks, surprisingly) but if its for his bro's health he can just get over it. I will remove his ceramic dish for food and just put the food on the floor when I get home.


Leave him in a familiar place with his brother./ You also may want to log when these happen, if there are any triggers, sudden light, bright light, noises etc...


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been trying to figure out what the trigger could be but I have no clue. I have tried not using the fluorescent lamps in my room and being as quiet as possible. A few days ago, he was sitting under a blanket in my lap and the room was quiet and dark. He had an episode and scratched my leg up and darted under my computer desk. I can't seem to notice a trigger.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Just got back from the vet with Bear and the vet is convinced (as am I) that Bear has been having seizures. He started Bear on 0.5 ml phenobarbital twice a day, and I gave him his first dose 20 minutes ago. Bear definitely doesn't like eating his medicine but I hope he'll learn to tolerate it (or at least enjoy the piece of yoggie chip afterwards). The vet says if he is too lethargic and out of it, we will slowly lower the dose until we find that "happy spot" where there are few to no seizures and Bear is lucid  I'll try to keep this updated with his (hopeful) recovery process! Since it seems to be a relatively rare condition, I want to document our process so future rat owners can read our story.

In the mean time, I'm seizure-proofing their cage.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Great news!!! Did you like this vet? he seems very knowledgeable 

yes please document everything you can, as I have never used pheno-barbital and would love to see how it affects Bear


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

The vet seemed great! A little quirky and weird but seemed very knowledgable and friendly. His name is Dr. Michael Anderson and he is located at Anderson Animal Hospital in Des Moines, Iowa (for anyone looking for a vet in the area).

Bear seemed a LOT more responsive and excited today compared to the last week. I forgot to mention that the doc also gave him a shot of steroids at the vet in case it is a tumor causing the problem. I don't think that the phenobarbital could be working already (it takes a week or two to build up in the system, apparently) but I think the shot made a huge difference. He was climbing all over me today. 

Does anyone know if I can mix the phenobarbital in something yummy like chocolate ensure to make him enjoy it more? He just hates taking it. I can call the vet and ask if no one knows, just thought it was worth a shot asking here.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> The vet seemed great! A little quirky and weird but seemed very knowledgable and friendly. His name is Dr. Michael Anderson and he is located at Anderson Animal Hospital in Des Moines, Iowa (for anyone looking for a vet in the area).
> 
> Bear seemed a LOT more responsive and excited today compared to the last week. I forgot to mention that the doc also gave him a shot of steroids at the vet in case it is a tumor causing the problem. I don't think that the phenobarbital could be working already (it takes a week or two to build up in the system, apparently) but I think the shot made a huge difference. He was climbing all over me today.
> 
> Does anyone know if I can mix the phenobarbital in something yummy like chocolate ensure to make him enjoy it more? He just hates taking it. I can call the vet and ask if no one knows, just thought it was worth a shot asking here.




Ahhh yes you WANT to give with food and it does sound like the steroid (dexamethasone) is what cranked him up. It often does (I use it a lot)

Give with food, if possible, to decrease chance of distress to GI tract.

http://ratguide.com/meds/central_nervous_system_drugs/phenobarbital.php
I would think its fine, its not an antibiotic that would bind to calcium or anything like that.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Why do you use it a lot? What kind of problems need frequent use? 

Ahh, I see! I'll run to the store later tonight and get some thing to mix it with. What's the best way to mix it? I have a little container of the meds and some syringes. Suck up the meds the spit into a little bowl then mix ensure and syringe feed? Or just let him lap it up?


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> Why do you use it a lot? What kind of problems need frequent use?
> 
> Ahh, I see! I'll run to the store later tonight and get some thing to mix it with. What's the best way to mix it? I have a little container of the meds and some syringes. Suck up the meds the spit into a little bowl then mix ensure and syringe feed? Or just let him lap it up?


I use dexamethasone for severe respiratory issues like Pulmonary abscesses...got a few oldies suffering with it right now. I sub-q dex and know how fast it can act.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Aw, poor guys. I hope I never have to give my ratties shots. Bear HATED the shot at the vet--nipped him pretty hard and screamed bloody murder!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> Aw, poor guys. I hope I never have to give my ratties shots. Bear HATED the shot at the vet--nipped him pretty hard and screamed bloody murder!


My rats are usually very good about it...one boy would RUN to me when he was about to have a respiratory attack, would stay very still for his injection, and lie in my lap bruxxing when he started to feel better. Sometimes vets can do things in a bit of a hurry...I have never been bitten yet by any rat (sub-q'd 30-40?)

I am sub-q'g a biter right now, and he was very tricky the last time I did it. (Sep 1st) Uh oh just realized today is his day...sigh.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Yeah, I suppose it's a little different when the shot helps them out of acute distress. I think Bear was a little upset and feeling bad after the long drive to the vet, and I guess the vet did try to "sneak" the shot on him. That's surprising that you've never been bitten, though. Bear's yelp made it sound like it hurt pretty badly, but maybe he was just surprised.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> Yeah, I suppose it's a little different when the shot helps them out of acute distress. I think Bear was a little upset and feeling bad after the long drive to the vet, and I guess the vet did try to "sneak" the shot on him. That's surprising that you've never been bitten, though. Bear's yelp made it sound like it hurt pretty badly, but maybe he was just surprised.


depends on the guage of the needle, the angle, the vet may have poked it into the muscle in his hurry etc...I use butterfly needles and carefully insert it sub-cutaneously...rats deal very well with these, except Dexter who is feeling much better and getting more opinionated by the day.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah, I see. 

Mixing the meds with chocolate soy milk was a HIT. He lapped it right up  Yay! 

Also: I got soymilk this time because I was afraid the lactose would hurt his tummy. However, I know that (controvercially) soy isn't the best thing for rats. I also chose the soymilk because it actually seemed to have real cocoa in it whereas the chocolate milk was probably just flavor and sugar. Which is better?


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Rats are not all lactose intolerant any more than humans are. Most are fine with it. It's one of those internet myths that gets blown put of proportion. Much like soya actually. If rats are fed on a diet with a massive reliance on soya it can cause some issues (and help with others). But as long as you feed a nice varied diet then it isn't a problem. in fact its very useful for old rats, as its one of the protien sources that is kindest to the kidneys.

Your chocolate milk sounds nice quality, chocolateis a great way to get meds down rats. I sometimes use nutella (a chocolate and hazelnut spread) that works well too.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Rats are not all lactose intolerant any more than humans are. Most are fine with it. It's one of those internet myths that gets blown put of proportion. Much like soya actually. If rats are fed on a diet with a massive reliance on soya it can cause some issues (and help with others). But as long as you feed a nice varied diet then it isn't a problem. in fact its very useful for old rats, as its one of the protien sources that is kindest to the kidneys.

Your chocolate milk sounds nice quality, chocolateis a great way to get meds down rats. I sometimes use nutella (a chocolate and hazelnut spread) that works well too.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Isamurat said:


> Rats are not all lactose intolerant any more than humans are. Most are fine with it. It's one of those internet myths that gets blown put of proportion. Much like soya actually. If rats are fed on a diet with a massive reliance on soya it can cause some issues (and help with others). But as long as you feed a nice varied diet then it isn't a problem. in fact its very useful for old rats, as its one of the protien sources that is kindest to the kidneys.
> 
> Your chocolate milk sounds nice quality, chocolateis a great way to get meds down rats. I sometimes use nutella (a chocolate and hazelnut spread) that works well too.


I agree with Isamurat about the issue with lactose intolerance...I think if you are only giving it as a treat, to get meds in and not large amounts its fine. I am constantly battling people who are sure this myth is true LOL My vet said the exact same thing... "I am sure some rats are lactose intolerant but not all"


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

That makes sense. I've been using ensure for the past day or so and he doesn't love it and I really have to fight him to START drinking it, but once he does he can get down the whole syringe in one go. 

I am, however, a bit worried that he seems to be losing weight. He is now definitely thinner than his brother--and when I got him, he was the chunkier of the two. I managed to feed him 2 extra syringes (1ml each) of ensure this morning, but he wasn't too happy about it. I wonder if the meds are hurting his tummy so he doesn't want to eat or something... ? Ideas?


----------



## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

Could be the meds :/ is h drinking water?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

A bit, I think. When I pinch his neck, the skin goes down at the same rate as his brother's so I'm not quite as concerned about that. 

He is OBSESSED with getting in the darkest, tightest place he can. I know that's pretty normal ratty behavior but when he's in his cage, he just sits there and mopes and when I let him out, he tries his hardest to squirm away from me and into a little tiny snuggly crevasse somewhere. It seems strange to me, especially since he was the less-shy and friendlier of the two before getting sick. 

I will probably call the vet tomorrow. He seemed to get better initially (probably from the steroid shot) but is now mopey and weird. He didn't thrash at all until last night, when I heard/saw it happen at least three times (around 11pm, middle of the night, and early morning). How long does it take to acclimate to a dosage? As in how long until I can tell for sure if the dose is too low?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He's had more seizures than usual in the past day or so. Will call the vet in the morning. He's had two in the last half hour.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Hugs. It sounds like its something related to pressure in the brain if the steroid helped but the others didn't unless the vet can up the anti seizure meds or try a new one. As i see it youve probably got 2 main choices. Try steroids long term, dex can be fed in tabletted form (crushed then split) very effectively, as can predinose. If this stops the fits and keeps him happily eating then just play it by eye. The other alternative is much sadder and not an easy decision, letting him go. If you can't control the seizures and hes not happy in himself then it may be the kindest option. It's so hard eith him being so young though. I had to make a similar decision recently but the lad in question was over two with fairly clear pituatry tumour symptoms. Even then it was still hard as he still had some happiness in his life.

Big hugs whatever you decide,I hate neuro issues more than most rat illnesses, they are really horrible.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

The vet wants me to stay at this dose until mid next week just to make sure it's not working. If it hasnt helped, I'll bring him back and get steroids prescribed. I will try syringe-feeding him some baby food tonight. I really really really don't want to let him go  but if he's in pain and we can't get the seizures under control I think it would be unethical to let him keep suffering. But I'm going to try as hard as I **** well can because he's the sweetest little boy I've ever met  

Last night I was holding him after a seizure and he was immobile (RIGHT after a seizure) and I started crying a little so I sniffed my nose and he looked STRAIGHT at me and snuggled closer. It was so heartbreakingly sweet


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> The vet wants me to stay at this dose until mid next week just to make sure it's not working. If it hasnt helped, I'll bring him back and get steroids prescribed. I will try syringe-feeding him some baby food tonight. I really really really don't want to let him go  but if he's in pain and we can't get the seizures under control I think it would be unethical to let him keep suffering. But I'm going to try as hard as I **** well can because he's the sweetest little boy I've ever met
> 
> Last night I was holding him after a seizure and he was immobile (RIGHT after a seizure) and I started crying a little so I sniffed my nose and he looked STRAIGHT at me and snuggled closer. It was so heartbreakingly sweet


Do the seizures seem shorter in duration, or in violence? This is a sign the meds are starting to work for him...its a balancing act with these types of meds...it takes awhile to be fully effective so give it a chance/ 

And just so you know he's not "there' during the actual seizure, so the fear of stress and pain is your own for watching it. Seizures are terrifying to watch but they don't cause the distress and pain you think...they might be a bit sore and very confused when waking up, but they don't remember a thing.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

They don't seem any shorter in duration, maybe a little in violence. I'm not sure. He is a lot more peppy now--I think that's due to the fact that I've been hand feeding him a few times a day. He seems to have a lot more energy. I hope he starts eating his blocks soon because it's really difficult for me to make time mid-day to come feed him!

That's true. Now that he's a bit more active I'm less worried--I just hated seeing him sit around and do nothing but seize and sleep all day. He didn't seize at all during the day yesterday, but last night he woke me up 3 times. I'm glad he can't remember it, though.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

So I think he has entirely (or nearly entirely) stopped eating his lab blocks. I've been feeding him ensure a few times a day, basically as often as I can, but why would he be avoiding blocks? I looked at his teeth and they seem to be perfectly normal, nothing weird I can see... He gobbles up the ensure I feed him--took him a while to get the hang of it but he rarely hesitates now. Any way to get him started eating blocks again? Also, he doesn't want to eat anything out of a bowl--I put some ensure in his little food bowl and he ignored it completely. He only drinks it from the syringe!


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Is he holding food alright? try and tempt him to take something tasty he has to hold himself, like a yoggy or a peice of breakfast cereal.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He seems to only want to use one hand, but he doesnt seem to struggle or anything. He just kinda sniffs it and walks away. Even yogurt chips!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

If he's unable to eat solids, then you can soak his lab blocks and offer that to him instead.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Here is a video of him eating. First he eats a pea, then a lab block. I'm actually really surprised that he ate the block. Notice how slowly he eats?! Is that neurological? He seems to be reluctant to BITE down. I soaked some lab blocks in ensure and mooshed them up and tried to offer him some but he wanted nothing to do with it. Sniffed, walked away. What a weirdo! I hope he eats some... Also, in the video, when it is pointed at him straight on I tried to get my camera as level to the ground as possible. Does he have a slight head-tilt or am I imagining things? 

Less than 5 minutes after taking that video he had a thrashing episode.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Update: he has been on the meds for almost two weeks now and I am FINALLY seeing improvement!! I haven't seen or heard a seizure in at least two days, and he seems to be pretty peppy and is eating (at least occasionally) again. Hoping to see him put on a bit of weight. Very very glad the phenobarbital seems to be doing the trick  Will update again if I need to but hopefully this will be the end of it! Thanks to everyone for your help.


----------



## Monzae (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi, I've read most of what has been happening with your Ratty, I have had a few Rats and in the time experienced a few of the major issues to occur. Now I can say about this that it sounds like possibly a stroke of some kind, looking in the video the way he drags his weight, the drooling is a sure sign and the gagging of what my boy had after a stroke. He had a stroke around Christmas 2010, lived another half a year with serious issues and mostly special needs =/ he would have fits like these but couldn't run and jump due to paralysis of the hind area. When he had seizures bought on by the stroke he would do a similar gagging thing but more like waving his hand and drooling alot, the penis plug occurred alot after the stroke, I don't believe Bear has actually had a stroke but perhaps there was some kind of clot and it may be re occurring, most important thing right now is to have a Vet figure it out, you definitely need a professional on this, watch out for biting you or his cage mate as panicked Rats act irrational even if they are your best friend, play it safe. I'm worried if he is getting enough sleep, we want him to be comfortable so check to make sure he isn't being woken up too often or unable to get to sleep. A dose of Pentazemin can be prescribed and is a good safe way to help a distressed Rat get some sleep. I hope this isn't something major and maybe just a minor bowel infection or less, as was another thing with my boy, he had a tumor removed from his abdomen area and had an infection of some kind, the plugs seemed more common due to this so that's something to consider, I believe the stroke had something to do with flaring it up. Last note, I would try some echinacea tablet to boost his immune system at the likely hood there is an infection somewhere, you can use normal human tablets from your local pharmacy, research into how to use them first but they're not all that critical as they're completely natural remedy.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> Update: he has been on the meds for almost two weeks now and I am FINALLY seeing improvement!! I haven't seen or heard a seizure in at least two days, and he seems to be pretty peppy and is eating (at least occasionally) again. Hoping to see him put on a bit of weight. Very very glad the phenobarbital seems to be doing the trick  Will update again if I need to but hopefully this will be the end of it! Thanks to everyone for your help.


I am so sorry I missed your video, he actually looked like he was in pre-seizure mode to me...the synapses in his brain were starting to fire erratically...poor bubbers. I would advise putting something solid on the top of your cage for him just in case so you don't have to worry about a foot dropping through the bars if he does have a seizure, and to give him more security.

Has he stopped eating like an old rat, resting his paws on the ground for balance, able to get his hind feet under him and sit up?

VERY glad to hear the seizure meds are finally working!!!


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

He has been eating normally for the most part. I have seen him get like this a few times in the last few days, just slow and dazed, but no violent thrashing which to me seems like improvement. He was even wrestling with Ziggy yesterday which hasn't happened since all of this started.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OH good!!! So he's not limp and draggy, more up on his toes and lifting his body and tail up like a young boy should?


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes, most of the time at least!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> yes, most of the time at least!


yay!!!!


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

I thought I should give an update here, in case anyone with a similar problem finds this thread. 

I decided to put Bear down on Wednesday. I saw a new vet, who did a much more thorough exam than my previous vet ever did. She said his pupils were extremely constricted and he has probably been blind for a while. She also said his reflexes (poking near the eye) were much slower than normal. He most likely had some brain damage or neurological disease/damage. She suspects that the seizures are either from epilepsy or from liver problems (she mentioned inflammation or too small of a liver or liver shunts, whatever those are), which I had never heard of. She said a tumor was unlikely given his age (9mo). In addition to the seizures, he had also developed some breathing problems that didn't respond to ABs. 

She was willing to try x-rays or blood work to check his liver, check his kidneys, check his lungs/heart, and check his pheno levels. However because rats are so little they prefer to put them under general anesthesia to get the blood, and we were all afraid to do that given his poor health. She was also willing to try drawing the blood while he is conscious, but I knew that he wouldn't put up with that and that it would be very traumatic for him. 

Best case scenario she said that we could diagnose where the seizures were coming from and try to control them better with meds. My partner and I decided that it was his time to go. I think Bear knew it was time, too. 

Here are some pictures of him. I also started a thread in the Rainbow Bridge section. 
http://imgur.com/a/2JmhJ#0

<3 RIP Bear. Many thanks to everyone here who helped me give him the best care possible.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

centennial said:


> I thought I should give an update here, in case anyone with a similar problem finds this thread.
> 
> I decided to put Bear down on Wednesday. I saw a new vet, who did a much more thorough exam than my previous vet ever did. She said his pupils were extremely constricted and he has probably been blind for a while. She also said his reflexes (poking near the eye) were much slower than normal. He most likely had some brain damage or neurological disease/damage. She suspects that the seizures are either from epilepsy or from liver problems (she mentioned inflammation or too small of a liver or liver shunts, whatever those are), which I had never heard of. She said a tumor was unlikely given his age (9mo). In addition to the seizures, he had also developed some breathing problems that didn't respond to ABs.
> 
> ...


Bear lived a LOT longer than you or anyone expected. You gave him some wonderful time together. Thank you so much for trying with this little man.


----------



## centennial (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you. Still doesn't feel like long enough. Every few hours my heart breaks again


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm so sorry, you gave him a good chance at life and I'm sure it was a happy one, big hugs


----------

