# need help, heavy breathing and lethargy



## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Sorry, I posted this in the 'say hello' section because i'm new here. I'm not sure if this is okay, but I'm copying and pasting here now I can to hopefully reach people who can help quicker and it's quite an urgent situation. 
hi,
I have two rats, both boys and brothers, both about a year and a half or so. One of them (Ripley) has had uris on and off for a while (the only symptom being bouts of chirping at first, then gagging with mucus in his mouth). In the past antibiotics (septrin) have cleared them up. This most recent time though (starting maybe a month or so ago) he had mites, so i got them both treated. A little bit after the treatment with ivermectin, though, he started getting the respiratory symptoms and it was back to the vets. They got another ivermectin dose for mites (both times I thoroughly cleaned the cage, replacing their beds), and I was also given baytril for Ripley. He got better for a few days, before symptoms suddenly returned, and I went back to the vets again. This time I was given septrin again along with metacam to use for the first week, and that seemed to clear it up - he finished his two week course. But then two days after finishing (his last dose being last Tuesday night, so this was last thursday very late night) he had very scary symptoms. Incredibly heavy breathing so he was shaking, lethargy, not eating. This was just under a week ago. I dosed him with metacam and more septrin, as well as getting him in his nebuliser with the f10 solution I use at the vets advice (I've had this since he was first having respiratory problems). The next day (unluckily being good friday, so we didn't see our normal vet) he was rushed to the vet, and prescribed a doxy/baytril combo I've been giving him. Along with the nebulisations, airing my room, and using my purfier, things were seeming managed. He would breathe heavily intermittently, but not as bad as before, and showed no other symptoms. Then this morning he was suddenly showing the same symptoms of a week ago. I have a decongestant for nebulisation I'm going to use (acetylcysteine) but I feel at a loss now. The vets said the problem could be mucus in the airways, sort of like athsma because of myco scarring, but I feel like we could be missing something. One option I'm considering is allergies. Specifically, an allergy to bird dander, though I can't be certain. Around the beginning of this latest situation (starting with the mite related itching) I took in a Lovebird who is also living in my room. The problem if this is the case is, I have no where else to move either of them. If allergies are a possibility, are there any easy to obtain and rat safe anti-histamines I could test him with to see if that helps? Any time we need anti-histamines we tend to use Loritadine.
Oh, and I thought I should add two other potentially relevant things: I've always put Vetark Pro-C Probiotics in their drinking water whilst anyone's on antibiotics, until a week after. The other thing is that recently I've been finding a white slime mould on the cage, not sure why. I got rid of this well and truly (I think) with the last cage cleaning a week ago.
Oh, and their bedding is: Unbleached paper to line the bottom, back2nature for the litter trays, fabric sleeping places from fuzzbutt cage comforts, and I had been using normal face tissues for them to carry around and use as bedding, but was unsure if that could be the issue, so have been using torn up unbleachep paper this past week. Their cage is the Liberta Explorer 2nd edition. I switched them to that early this year/late last year from a diy cage made from a cabinet. Oh, another thing is, the brother (Erin) has never had the same issues. he will chirp very lightly occasionally but that's it.
I hope someone has some suggestions for me. Thanks in advance,
Skye 

I gave him some metacam since I think that worked last time he was this bad, and I've done the acetylcysteine nebulisation now, and his breathing is seeming worse rather than better. Stress from nebulisation always does worsen it a little at first but I'm concerned if it's just not helped.
I also remembered something I did that could have caused the sudden relapse. I've been giving them fresh food every night, as you should, but last night I added a little bit of parrot food after checking the ingredients over and thinking all the nutrients might help. Could this have affected him?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Concerning potential allergies, you can use children liquid Benadryl. If it is allergies, you should see an improvement within 24 hours. Let me know if you need help figuring the dosage once you get the Benadryl. http://ratguide.com/meds/respiratory_drugs/diphenhydramine_hcl.php


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm not familiar with back2nature litter so I googled it. I went on their website and I couldn't find that it was dust free or at least > 99% dust free. So that might be a problem. Also it says it is 99% paper but I wonder what could be the other 1%, if it is soft wood like pine or cedar that would be bad- although it is still only 1 % so not sure if that little would cause so many health problems.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Is the tissue you used lotion-free and such? Torn up paper can be dusty when you ton it up. I would give them the paper whole. I'm assuming you are talking about paper towel, right?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The white slime moulé is definitely not good for URI, but since you got rid of it, it should be ok. I would clean his cage every 3 days, especially now that he has an URI. Do you use scent/perfume free detergent? What do you use to clean his cage and accessories?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm working on getting the benadryl, I've had to ask my mum to get that due to disabilities, so waiting on that. the back2nature is only in litter trays, and I use it because I noticedl very little dust with it, as opposed to carefresh and the like. it's cardboard pellets. 
I don't use anything scented for myself and them. the tissue was unscented face tissues, and the paper is unprinted newspaper pretty much.
I clean the cage with baking soda and water or vinegar and water. the latter mostly being for bedding and such, to neutralise any ammonia.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

just realised you asked about the parrot food on the other thread. i gave them a small quantity of each of these:
http://www.northernparrots.com/hage...onid=e3b4855380d3f04595a8cb976298b766250de81e
http://www.northernparrots.com/harrisons-high-potency-super-fine-1lb-organic-bird-food-prod58113/

i couldn't see anything immediately concerning, but let me know if you see anything i missed.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Raw peanut (roasted is fine) is really bad for rats and you have Peanut kernel & chopped peanut kernel here- not the peanut for say, but the kernel is raw (or it would say roasted) so that might be bad too. It has raw lentils, I know cooked lentils are fine- not sure about uncooked lentils though. I would stop the parrot food, unless someone else says that day lentils and raw peanut kernel is ok. Orange oil might be a problem, especially for make rats.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The partot food didn't give you rat URI though, it is just that some ingredients are likely not good for rats.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You need to use a dish liquid soap to clean your cage like Dawn blue or a scent free liquid soap. Just baking soda and water or vinegar won't clean the cage well, that is probably why you got some moulé on your rat cage Let us know if the Benadryl helped. I hope your little guy will feel better soon


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

ah, okay, didn't catch the orange oil and the other things. we have a scent free dish soap i can use from now on. i don't have the benadryl yet, but am a bit confused as the active ingredient seems to be different here in the uk from the us. the only way to get the diphenhydramine hcl appears to be in a product called nytol, which comes in 25mg tablets and is used for sleep. the benadryl has instead Cetirizine Dihydrochloride. i'm gonna go for the nytol i think, since it has the right active ingredient, but dosing might be a pain.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> ah, okay, didn't catch the orange oil and the other things. we have a scent free dish soap i can use from now on. i don't have the benadryl yet, but am a bit confused as the active ingredient seems to be different here in the uk from the us. the only way to get the diphenhydramine hcl appears to be in a product called nytol, which comes in 25mg tablets and is used for sleep. the benadryl has instead Cetirizine Dihydrochloride. i'm gonna go for the nytol i think, since it has the right active ingredient, but dosing might be a pain.


Can you get the baby/toddler liquid version? Otherwise, you would have to crush the tablet to a very fun powder and mis it with syrop (do NOT put the tablet in their drinking water). If the tablet is sugar coated it will be difficult to crush it and mix it evenly in syrup.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good catch on the active ingredient that is different in the UK I didn't know that.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

there doesn't appear to be a baby/toddler version or liquid version unfortunately  couldn't find anything else with the right active ingredient other than more tablets, so i'll have to try my best with the tablets. fingers crossed they aren't sugar coated. how would it be best to make it up into a liquid? i've not done that before, just putting things in smoothies for palatability. would water be best, or i have a strawberry syrup that i could use? not sure what would store/mix well.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

just got the packet open and the tablets are quite big, luckily, so i should be able to get it into half, maybe quarter, to mix up, which should keep me from needing to mix up too much, and reduce the amount of sugar coating that's needed to be mixed.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

hopefully it is a fast dissolving kind of tablet. If it is it would dissolve easily in warm syrup. You need to measure the syrup so you know the concentration of the med and how many ml you will have to give him. That is why it would have been easier with a liquid med since you could have given him straight, but a tablet will do- try to find one that says fast dissolving. Let us know.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> just got the packet open and the tablets are quite big, luckily, so i should be able to get it into half, maybe quarter, to mix up, which should keep me from needing to mix up too much, and reduce the amount of sugar coating that's needed to be mixed.


Ok. If it break easily, you shouldn't have too much problem crushing it with the back of a spoon. Put the syrup (warm) in an appropriate container, add the med (powder) and shake really well for at least a minute. Check if it is well dissolved. You need to measure how much syrup you use to be able to get the appropriate dose with a syringe (no needle)


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

don't think it's sugar coated. should i mix the syrup with some water first? i don't want it to be too thick to syringe properly


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> don't think it's sugar coated. should i mix the syrup with some water first? i don't want it to be too thick to syringe properly


Yes you can mix water with the syrup


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The trick is that it is easy to syring feed, but tasty enough (cover the med taste) so your rat just eat it straight out of the syringe. Otherwise you will have to mix the med-syrop mix in baby food which is ok but more work for you.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

so that'd be 2mg/kg daily or 1mg/kg twice daily according to ratguide right?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It is 1mg/kg to 2mg/kg twice daily. I would start with 1 mg/kg twice daily and see if it helps. But you could give him as much as 2mg/kg twice daily.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

ah, okay, i wasn't clear on that. I've just mixed it up, and it crushed and disolved really well with the warm syrup. since i didn't have a very small jar i mixed up 25mg with 12.5ml, and since my boys are very big rats (Ripley is 650g) i've given him 0.325ml, which i had to do forcefully, since he just won't eat by himself right now. 
thankfully, his breathing was already improved by this point from the previous actions i took (same as last time), though he still won't eat solid food for now. but i'll keep this up twice a day and watch out for any side effects, fingers crossed this'll put a stop to his heavy breathing episodes!


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

In your first post it says that it was better for a few days and then it got worse and you took him to the vets. Antibiotics need to stay on for two weeks for them to work properly. Also if the antibiotics aren't working you can get a baytril doxy combo. The ususally work together really well. Two of my rats right now are on doxy azthromycin combo and that seems to be working even though they started it yesterday. I would try other antibiotics. Also metacam is a pain reliever and it doesn't help fight antibiotics.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

From what you've said, it seems to me that your rat is particulary sensitive to some environmental condition. Someone here said something about baking soda being toxic to rats. I did a search on hte internet and came up more than a few references to baking soda being toxic to rats and have even resulted in death. It apparently has more to do with ingesting baking soda than breathing it in.

You said you were using baking soda to clean the cage. If your rat is sensitive to baking soda, any residue left behind after cleaning could be causing the problem. The residue could easily contaminate everything in the cage. 

If it were me, I would completely clean the cage and all items in the cage again as soon as possible, rinsing very well with plain water.If you use baking soda to clean other things in the house, like I do, you might want to consider that as well. I can easily imagine a rat coming into contact with other things cleaned with baking soda during time out of the cage. Do you use any carpet fresheners? Many of those tend to have baking soda as an ingredient.

I believe I also read that citrus of any kind is toxic to male rats.

I hope this helps. 

Let us know how things go for your little guy.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

JAnimal said:


> In your first post it says that it was better for a few days and then it got worse and you took him to the vets. Antibiotics need to stay on for two weeks for them to work properly. Also if the antibiotics aren't working you can get a baytril doxy combo. The ususally work together really well. Two of my rats right now are on doxy azthromycin combo and that seems to be working even though they started it yesterday. I would try other antibiotics. Also metacam is a pain reliever and it doesn't help fight antibiotics.


it was just the once he went back before the dose was up, when only on baytril. his current antibiotics are a baytril/doxy combo, but not sure whether they'll do the trick. i know, metacam was suggested by the vet to relieve discomfort and potential inflamation in the lungs.



catty-ratty said:


> From what you've said, it seems to me that your rat is particulary sensitive to some environmental condition. Someone here said something about baking soda being toxic to rats. I did a search on hte internet and came up more than a few references to baking soda being toxic to rats and have even resulted in death. It apparently has more to do with ingesting baking soda than breathing it in.
> 
> You said you were using baking soda to clean the cage. If your rat is sensitive to baking soda, any residue left behind after cleaning could be causing the problem. The residue could easily contaminate everything in the cage.
> 
> ...


ah, i didn't know that about baking soda. i don't tend to use it for anything else they have access too though, and do rince before drying. i have just cleaned the cage thoroughly with dish soap though, as was suggested. we also have laminate flooring, so luckily there'll be nothing from that. 
i don't feed them citrus, since i have also heard that.

i am wondering if, if what i'm trying doesn't sort it, it could be congestive heart failure. in which case i'll need to get him on meds for that, but it doesn't seem it's curable. i don't think that's something the vet has considered yet, so it hasn't been checked for. these vet visits are not the cheapest of things though, with this remaining unsolved for so long  all worth it if we get something working though.

also, his breathing is quite a bit less heavy than before, and he is eating some solid food now. he also wanted, and enjoyed, some free roam time as well. he seems to be out of the woods for now, thankfully, though still not in his best health.

also, thanks so much all for the help and suggestions! it's great how quick people are to respond, and how willing to help!


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Ohh sorry I didn't see that. Metacam will help relieve discomfort I just thought you were giving it for the URI. Sorry.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm glad he seems to be doing better. 

 If Benedryl is helping, it may be an allergic reaction. But it can also help with upper respiratory issues caused by illness. I would just keep an eye on it. 

From what I read about baking soda, there are ideas that it may cause congestive heart failure in rats. Asthma is also a suspected symptom, but asthma can also be a symptom of congestive heart failure, along with a lot of other things! 

Does he look bloated? Swollen limbs?

A note on using vinegar and baking soda to clean and neutralize urine odor.

Baking soda and ammonia are both alkaline substances. Because of this, baking soda does not actually neutralize urine odors. What it does do it _absorb_ wet urine. But so would any other absorbent material.

Vinegar is acidic and therefor will neutralize the urine odor by reacting with it with it chemically. Vinegar also reacts with baking soda. 

I checked on the products of the vinegar/ baking soda reaction. It results in sodium acetate. This is used in foods for various things. There seems some question of toxicity in rats. There is no definitive information that I could find. Lab rats have been tested. I think that it's only toxic in large amounts, but if a rat has a sensitivity to it, that might be a concern.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

it's hard to tell what's helped him, since he had an episode like this before and recovered similarly, i basically tried what i could think of. i'll keep an eye on it for now, hoping he gets no more heavy breathing sessions with the benadryl (or, well, nytol). 
no swollen limbs or bloating right now, but i think he might've seemed bloated at one time before, when he was on the septrin (so, about two weeks ago ish). i wasn't sure if i was being overcautious though. also, his ears did seem pale earlier today when his breathing was bad, but they seemed okay not long after, when it was a tad warme, so that could've been temperature.
with the baking soda, i don't think there's a way he'd have consumed much (if any) but you never know with rats, and i'd been leaning towards the diluted vinegar lately anyway (used for everything the last couple times). i was using the vinegar separately for the fabric bedding, so not for the same things too. a reaction between the two can be quite fizzy, we've used it to unblock the drains before. if baking soda could cause congestive heart failure that's worrying though, i'd have never thought something like that!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

A thought and some questions.

I looked back at your first post and saw that you put pro-biotics in the drinking water when they are on antibiotics. 

I wouldn't do that. As you apparently know, antibiotics kill gut flora. By adding the natural bacteria back to the GI, the antibiotics are having to do double duty by killing the extra gut flora AND the URI. I would wait until he's better before giving probiotics. Let all the power of the antibiotics focus on killing the URI instead of splitting it. 

I once used yogurt as a base for amoxicillin to treat a URI in a cat. After a week of dosing, she wasn't getting any better. As soon as I used something else for the base, she got better very quickly. 

People were taking antibiotics for years without too much trouble before the idea of using probiotics was ever even thought of. I've read that they should be given after the course of antibiotics is finished.

My questions:

Am I correct in assuming that Ripley is the only rat that has been sick? 

Is your other rat also put on antibiotics when Ripley is sick?

How long did you have them before Ripley began having trouble with URI's?

How long has he been having recurrent issues with URI's?


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

One more thing, 

You said that Ripley had mucus in his mouth.

If he has mucus in his lungs and is coughing it up, then he may actually have lower respiratory infection. If this is the case, benedryl will dry up the mucus, but won't help it come up or get rid of it. Before the benedryl, did his breathing sound raspy?

If he has congestion in his lungs, I would say he needs guaifenesin. I've given it to my cats. I bought Mucinex tablets because the only ingredient is guaifenesin. Some medications with guaifenesin also have other ingredients that may or may not be safe for rats. 

Here's a link to the Rat Guide with dosing info.

http://ratguide.com/meds/respiratory_drugs/guaifenesin_otc.php


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would stop the probiotics in the water because: 1) the water probably tastes differently and even a small drop in water consumption would be detrimental, and 2) unless the antibiotics are giving at least 2 hours (better wait 3 hours) after the antibiotics, it doesn't help since they will be killed by the antibiotics anyway. Do you have Benebac gel in the UK. My rats go crazy for it


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> One more thing,
> 
> You said that Ripley had mucus in his mouth.
> 
> ...


those episodes (mucus in the mouth) happened more than a few months ago, but did think that could go someway to indicating what's up in this case. the vet did suggest it could be mucus in the lungs, and i was given acetylcysteine as a decongestant for nebulisation which i used yesterday. though there was no immediate benefit at the time, it's hard to say if it contributed to his improvement or not. there were no sounds from his breathing yesterday at first, though there were some after the decongestant, and the vet has said every time the breathing is a bit 'raspy' (i thinks that's what they said) after listening through a stethoscope. would you say acetylcysteine would be good enough? 
if not, these seem to be the only reasonable options i can find containing quaifenesin here, and i don't know about the other ingredients.
http://www.boots.com/en/Robitussin-Chesty-Cough-Syrup-250ml_1288514/
http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Chesty-Cough-Relief-100mg-5ml-Oral-Solution-150ml-_1236544/ 



Gribouilli said:


> I would stop the probiotics in the water because: 1) the water probably tastes differently and even a small drop in water consumption would be detrimental, and 2) unless the antibiotics are giving at least 2 hours (better wait 3 hours) after the antibiotics, it doesn't help since they will be killed by the antibiotics anyway. Do you have Benebac gel in the UK. My rats go crazy for it


they seem to enjoy it if anything though (it contains dextrose, so i imagine that's why), and do drink well enough between doses that i'd think it helps (no diarreah at least). i looked into the benebac gel, but it seems it can only be got online, and is pretty expensive here.

update on ripley today: he's pretty sleepy, but not worryingly so since erin is too. his breathing seemed close to normal, but after getting him out it got heavier again, maybe with the excitement? i know he ate some of his kibble last night too.
i want to do his nebuliser again today, but know that the breathing worsens immediately after from stress, though i think it helps in the long run, so not sure what to do. also, not sure whether it's best to do acetylcystein, f10, or both (separately of course) in the nebuliser. the former seems to stress him more, but is a decongestant, and the latter less, and helps fight off infection. also, with the f10 i can put his brother in with him, reducing stress, but wouldn't want to do that for the decongestant.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

i just realised maybe i should expand on what heavy breathing means in this case. normally you can only really see their chest rising and falling with breaths when trying to, but with ripley you can see his sides going in and out quite rapidly, just behind his ribs. he seems to have that, to a low level, constantly (aside from when sleeping) right now. but not as bad as early yesterday.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> would you say acetylcysteine would be good enough?
> if not, these seem to be the only reasonable options i can find containing quaifenesin here, and i don't know about the other ingredients.


I'm not familiar with acetylcysteine. So I can't tell you which would be better. But I can give you my _personal opinion_ based on what you've told me. 

If getting him out of the cage stresses him and then causes him to breath heavier, which in turn can probably also make it harder to breath, I _personally_ would try guaifenesin. If his breathing get better with the guaifenesin, I would leave out the nebulizer. 

From what I've read, guaifenesin and acetylcysteine both loosen the mucus to help get it up and out of the lungs. I don't know if one is more effective than the other.

I would say that if taking him out of the cage results in heavier breathing, then do as little as possible to stress him. Giving him guaifeneson would be less stressful.

Just keep in mind that while I do have a lot of medical experience caring for animals and I did briefly study veterinary medicine, I am NOT a veterinarian. Also, I have very little experience helping sick rats. 

There is a lady here that has much more experience helping rats. I'm going to PM her with a link to this thread. She might be of more help than me.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> i just realised maybe i should expand on what heavy breathing means in this case. normally you can only really see their chest rising and falling with breaths when trying to, but with ripley you can see his sides going in and out quite rapidly, just behind his ribs. he seems to have that, to a low level, constantly (aside from when sleeping) right now. but not as bad as early yesterday.


It could be congestive heart failure. The breathing you are describing reminded me of my Gribouilli. She has congenital congestive heart failure.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I'm not familiar with acetylcysteine. So I can't tell you which would be better. But I can give you my _personal opinion_ based on what you've told me.
> 
> If getting him out of the cage stresses him and then causes him to breath heavier, which in turn can probably also make it harder to breath, I _personally_ would try guaifenesin. If his breathing get better with the guaifenesin, I would leave out the nebulizer.
> 
> ...


great, thanks very much  i think i'll see about getting the guaifenesin tomorrow, i don't think there's anything alarming in the boots chesty cough relief medicine. i wish the vet had offered an oral medicine - the nebuliser required the injectible version of the drug which was pricey, and now i'm not so sure about using it to boot. 



Gribouilli said:


> It could be congestive heart failure. The breathing you are describing reminded me of my Gribouilli. She has congenital congestive heart failure.


that's helpful to know. i'd love to know what you do for gribouili, and how she's managing with the condition, if you have much info. i can't find much about the condition myself (other than the ratguide page), and it'd be useful to know, if i'm going to talk to the vets about the possibility. would it be prudent to get that investigated rather than waiting and seeing with these other treatments?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

update: i checked ripley's weight again, as i did 2 days ago. it seems to have gone up by about 20g since then, though it was a struggle to weigh accurately so i could be off. but if so, and if this is congestive heart failure, i think this indicates fluid retention. i also weighed erin, and his weight is higher than i'd expect. i can't tell if this indicates a similar condition in him, but if so, could this be hereditary? 
i'm going to call the vets and enquire again into their weights when weighed there.
if this is fluid retention, any ideas as to what to do? i will be calling the vets in a bit, but would love some outside suggestions.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

CHF can be diagnosed with an X-ray. CHF will shiw whitish heart and lungs indicated fluid retention. An healthy heart and lungs appears blackish on an X-ray. I had two meds for Gribouilli for CHF, one was a diuretic called Lasix, the other one I will have to check can't remember now.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> CHF can be diagnosed with an X-ray. CHF will shiw whitish heart and lungs indicated fluid retention. An healthy heart and lungs appears blackish on an X-ray. I had two meds for Gribouilli for CHF, one was a diuretic called Lasix, the other one I will have to check can't remember now.



did the xray require sedation? if so, do you think this would be unnecessarily risky as opposed to just trying one of the meds and using that as a diagnostic tool? i'm not sure what the vets will suggest, i ended up having to email, since i didn't realise they closed so early on saturdays. so i'll either have a response through email, or discuss it with them over the phone on monday. hopefully, if an xray is suggested, that could be done and ripley diagnosed and given treatment within the one appointment. we live an hour's drive from the exotic vets i use, so that means two hours of stressful travel for ripley (they aren't fond of car journeys), which could exacerbate things if it is a heart problem.
also, i know you said gribouili's condition was congenital, is that common? erin's weight seems higher than i'd expect too, and his stomach kind of firm. would it be worth having him checked out also, being ripley's brother (from the same litter)?

sorry to be asking so many questions, i just want to know all i can to best manage their health. thanks so much for being so helpful  

update:

with regards to the guaifenesin. i tried ripley with it a bit earlier. he liked the taste, and there may have been slight improvement. though it's hard to tell since things fluctuate with activity. i'm considering stopping with the benadryl alternative (the diphenhydramine) antihistamine too, since i don't want to keep him on unnecessary medications and i don't think it's doing much. but what if it is? idk
i've also started him with a co q10 supplement today, since that's suggested for chf, and it doesn't have side effects, along with some ground flax.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

XRay doesn't require sedation and in your rat case it would actually NOT be a good idea at all. Enalapril is used as a diagnosis tool in CHF, it is super safe. My Gribouilli was on Lasix and Enalapril for two minths before she passed. At the end she started month breathing and I put her in an oxygen tank at home, she passed peacefully about 12 hours later.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

About the condition being congenital- not sure if it is common or not. But I had her sisters take an X-ray too at the same time Grib did. The sisters were fine.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I had Grib on coenzyme 10 and flax seed too, as well as another supplememt for the heart, can't remember now. All my rats still get a little flax seed oil or seeds on their fresh veggies/greens- very healthy for them. I still give my 22 months rats coq10 a few times a week, I mean to give it daily but keep forgetting.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

do you know how long a rat can typically live with CHF with reasonable management? i hate the thought of loosing him, but would like to know what to expect. glad to know the enalapril is super safe, i'm hoping the vets will be happy with that as a diagnostic tool. it's reassuring to know it didn't affect them all too.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> do you know how long a rat can typically live with CHS with reasonable management? i hate the thought of loosing him, but would like to know what to expect. glad to know the enalapril is super safe, i'm hoping the vets will be happy with that as a diagnostic tool. it's reassuring to know it didn't affect them all too.


It depends on the age of your rat and his overall health and genetics. It can make a rat comfortable and happy for an extra 1 month to 6 months, there is no way to tell beforehand. Your vet might be able to say by looking at the X-ray.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

update:

after a bit of a fuss today i have an appointment for tomorrow at 3:30 pm to take ripley in for an xray at a vet that i have some experience with closer to home (20 mins drive away). i had been using an exotic vets that's an hours drive away, but the estimated cost was £250 not including treatments/consultation, and i have a few other issues with them at the moment (it's a bit complicated). This nearer vet will do an xray for £57, fingers crossed that ripley will be good without sedation (he certainly does have energy despite his health), and that we'll get a good idea of what's up.
the difference in cost does seem ridiculous to me.
in the meantime i've stopped the diphenhydramine hcl with no worsening of symptoms, and have stopped nebulisation for now, since his breathing seemed immediately worse after from stress. i'm keeping going with the co-q10 (15mg a day) and flax too. today his breathing is a little better than yesterday, though he is sleeping a fair bit, along with his brother, but i always find it hard to judge if it's just normal with my worried head on.
i'll also be bringing erin in tomorrow, as he's been less energetic than usual, and has had a couple of chirping episodes, making me worry if he has a respiratory infection now too.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good luck at the vet. You were right to try the allergy med, now you can rule that out as if it were allergies it would have worked within 48 hours and in most cases within hours. Thanks for the update. I hope it goes well tomorrow and that you get answers.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Sending positive thoughts your way. Let us know how it goes.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

thanks for the positive thoughts and help everyone  i'm happy we might finally get to the bottom of this.

just a quick question, has anyone got experience buying prescription meds online for rats? i was warned by the exotic vet that ACE inhibitors are pricy (and apparently risky), but checking online for enalapril the cost seems very reasonable. if he gets a diagnosis of chf, he'll likely need meds for the rest of his life, so i'm considering my options if they are extortionate to get straight from the vets. my main concerns are if meds aren't specifically licensed for rats, whether there could be issue buying them? also, are meds safe bought online if the site has good rep + requires prescription? 
buying online may not be necessary for me, but i'm not rolling in money so i'm just considering options, and the only info i can find is about buying online without prescription, which i would not do.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I bought three kinds of antibiotics online without a prescription to have in case of emergency like a closed vet or heavy snow...It doesn't matter if the med is meant for human as long as you compound it right, weigh your rat and make the correct dosage.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I bought three kinds of antibiotics online without a prescription to have in case of emergency like a closed vet or heavy snow...It doesn't matter if the med is meant for human as long as you compound it right, weigh your rat and make the correct dosage.


good to hear it's safe to get meds online, and you've had good experiences. unfortunately here, even antibiotics like baytril etc. are prescription only, so it's illegal to sell without one (and would therefore be suspect in terms of safety imo).


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I believe you said you live in England? 

I was trying to find azithromycin on line. In the UK, you can get it over the counter. It's called Clamelle and is used to treat chlamydia. Right now, I can't find the website I saw in the UK, but you can buy discreetly there. I think that a questionnaire is recommended, but not necessarily required. If I can find the website I saw I'll post it here. I use 2 different website safety tools to judge the reliability of sites. Kasperski and W.O.T. both rated it as a reliable site.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Just don't tell them it's for a rat. And, if buying a few tablets seems expensive, just consider how many rat doses you can get out of a single pill. 

If you end up doing this, try finding a mortar and pestle. Much, much easier to grind tablets down into a very fine powder! I LOVE mine!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Oh, and buying online for rats, many antibiotics can be bought easily with out a prescription if you're buying it for birds or fish. I researched using these for people and animals. A lot of people have used. In my experience with dogs and cats, they are very effective. Also, they are usually made by the same companies that make it for people. Sometimes the tablets/capsules look exactly the same!

I don't know if you have these in the UK, but here we have what are called feed stores. I get most of my supplies there. Many of the drugs are over the counter if you buy it for a horse or other live stock. It's also MUCH cheaper for the very same thing. 

I'm going to post a link to the one I go to so you can see what I'm talking about if you're not familiar. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/?cm_sp=Header_Nav-_-Links-_-Logo#tg

So far, the only antibiotic I've had trouble getting is azithromycin. I have or can easily get all the antibiotics suggested in Rat Guide.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

good to know you can get meds like that without prescription, and knowing that one could be helpful for myco if needed. should be fine getting prescriptions from vets for now though. good call on the mortar and pestle, i should definitely look to get one, especially if chf is diagnosed, since most meds seem to be tablet only. main issue is dividing it accurately, with one dose being a 10th of the smallest dose of some tablets. wonder if you can get high precision scales for fair prices... 

i probably should see if the vets would consider azithromycin if the problem turns out to be an unresponsive myco infection actually, haven't actually tried that one yet, and it looks to be a good one. if not i might have to attempt getting and dosing those 500mg tabs. though the sites i can see seem to require evidence of a positive test for chamydia so idk if it's possible.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

When I have to measure out very tiny amounts, I add something harmless to the mix to double or triple the volume and then adjust the volume of the dose. 

Ex.

If the dose is 1mg/lb with a volumetric dose of 1 ml, add something like water or syrup to it to make a 1mg dose with a 5ml volumetric dose. I do it all the time! Zero problems!

One part med plus 4 parts water or syrup or whatever.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> When I have to measure out very tiny amounts, I add something harmless to the mix to double or triple the volume and then adjust the volume of the dose.
> 
> Ex.
> 
> ...


had to do that with the nytol i used for ripley and it worked well (aside from the difficulty finding a decent small container), but when i tried it with the doxy beforehand it didn't seem to disolve at all, so i figured not all meds dissolve right. could be that i just used water and didn't think to warm it that time though, plus i only made up one tablet (he get 1/4 twide daily) for fear of wasting too many, so any left around the edges would be a fair amount wasted. with the nytol i used a warm syrup solution.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

If you can't get azithromycin, doxycycline and enrofloxacin (Baytril) are two most recommended antibiotics for rats. 

They are readily available on line for fish or birds and SUPER easy to get. And cheap. 

Baytril aka enrofloxacin aka ciprofloxacin

http://www.thomaslabs.com/product/fish-flox/fish-antibiotics

Doxycycline

http://www.ebay.com/itm/22202873850...48&var=520894656487&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I've used the fish doxy. It dissolved easily in a water based syrup. I would be leary of putting antibiotics in warm water. Not sure it's _not_ okay, but antibiotics are generally bacteria that kill the bacteria we don't want that makes us sick. Warmth would activate the bacteria. That's why it's recommended to keep probiotics refridgerated.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> If you can't get azithromycin, doxycycline and enrofloxacin (Baytril) are two most recommended antibiotics for rats.
> 
> They are readily available on line for fish or birds and SUPER easy to get. And cheap.
> 
> ...


doesn't look like we can get either of those here in the uk. idk, maybe we have tighter laws including meds for fish/birds that don't seem to be there in the us. 



catty-ratty said:


> I've used the fish doxy. It dissolved easily in a water based syrup. I would be leary of putting antibiotics in warm water. Not sure it's _not_ okay, but antibiotics are generally bacteria that kill the bacteria we don't want that makes us sick. Warmth would activate the bacteria. That's why it's recommended to keep probiotics refridgerated.


ah, really? i didn't know that antibiotics were bacteria before now. that's interesting, and i shan't try with warm water for them then.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Some of them are synthetic, but they all generally work the same way. More like a hybridized bacterial strain from existing antibiotics. Before they enter the warmth and moisture of the body, they are inactive. The same kind of thing happens with bakers yeast. I won't work unless you add warm water, and works even better if you add some sugar.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

that's interesting asbout the antibiotics, never considered what they are before really.

just got back from my vet appointment with very mixed feelings. it took a few xrays to get a clear one, and there was no fluid retention indicated at all, thankfully, but his heart is apparently slightly enlarged (the vet said, if i remember, that she would only consider it that combined with the sympoms he'd experienced, or something). however, this vet was unwilling to prescribe anything for it, partly because they aren't specifically for rats, stating that it would be too difficult to measure out doses accurately with enalapril, and saying that lasix (furosemide) would have to be injected to dose it accurately, so to not use that unless symptoms get worse. so i came away knowing what it is, but with no medications or means of getting any. do you think this is a reasonable decision? or should i get a second opinion?

she also said there was no sign of infection or anything in the lungs (though she had noted his breathing sounded problematic through the stethoscope) but to just finish the course of antibiotics. also, erin's breathing was apparently normal, so i'm guessing something must have just irritated his breathing for a little bit, idk.

the only suggestion i can do now, though, is she suggested the rats should loose a little weight. as it is i have them on science select rat, and give them fruit (mostly apple, pair, occasionally banana, sometimes lychee), veggies (sweet potato, peas, brocolli, tomato/carrot if they'll eat it) and grains (dry pasta, cooked pasta, oats, rye flakes, rice) as fresh foods, and a few seeds, (sesame seeds lately). i was giving them a very small amount of pumpkin/sunflower seeds before, but i've reduced that. i don't give them any junk foods; their main treat is coconut chips, and they get a tiny amount of dark chocolate if i'm worried about their breathing. they also get rice milk smoothies (with fruit) nowadays for hiding medicine, ripley was getting smoothies with a bit of peanut butter before because he used to be much worse with medicine. i don't really know what i need to change to reduce weight, she suggested reducing the kibble, but i don't like to deny access to their staple food, and they don't eat a great deal of it anyway (very picky). i do wish we could get harlan tekklad here. they also mellowed out when they matured and refuse to use the wheel i got, or any toys i give them but tunnels/boxes/paper/places to sleep and rathe rplay with eachother. they'll come out for free roam time every day, for an hour to two, before going back to the cage, but i haven't been letting them lately, since i was concerned about the potential heart condition. the only thing i can think, is there has been a period of time when i haven't been in good enough health for them to have much free roam time recently.

i'm just feeling so tired of this.

and now my mum's angry at me, saying i'm giving ripley 'too many chemicals' and that i'll end up making things worse, saying i shouldn't pursue other meds. she's always on about 'chemicals' being bad for you. does anyone know what i can say to reassure her? i haven't seen any signs that could indicate medicines have caused any issues with ripley, and currently he's just getting the two antibiotics till thursday, and his q10 supplement. they're all at safe doses, less than the maximum too.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

None of the meds out there are specifically for rats, but ironically they were all tested on them. My rat got Enalapril and Lasix and it helped If there is no fluid around her lungs/heart, it isn't CHF meaning that it is probably URI or something in her environment that irritate her respiratory system. Although the enlarged heart might mean that CHF could happen in the next few months. Enalapril is prescribed to make the heart work more efficiently. Could you remind us what meds she is still on right now, and how she is doing now if any different.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The meds you tried didn't make her worse. There is something going on with her. I'm not familiar with science select rat, I use Oxbow regal adult. I would cut the peanut butter and other foods that you give her that are well known allergy triggering foods. Not that those foods are unhealthy but in the off chance that she is allergic to one of them. I would actually stop everything but the rat pellets for a few days and see if it helps.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Meds used on animals where it wasn't specifically made for them is called off-label use. considering NO medications were made for rats everything is off-label use...I always find this hilarious.

I just read your entire thread and have other ideas and questions for you.

You are in the UK? If so you are stuck with whatever the vets will give you and a lot are very stingy on meds. There are release forms you can fill out I have heard if you want to insist on trying something new.

I never had the impression your rat had CHF so don't worry about the lasix and enalapril. He doesn't seem to have the normal symptoms.

The breathing through his abdomen, is he really working his abdominal muscles to pull and push air? Can you feel his chest? Give it a squeeze and see if it feels harder than a normal rats that should have a lot of give. If its harder and rounder than a regular rat you may be dealing with pulmonary abscesses. These are nasty and progressive and medicating and treating is just to lenghten their life and quality of overall life. Because these are abscesses its very hard to find antibiotics that will penetrate them. I have found zithromax and baytril to be one of the few that actually help a bit.

You could try nebulizing him with hypertonic saline (they use these on COPD kids and it helps break down any mucus and keeps the remaining lung tissue healty. Your rat may not be treatable as such, and may also need to be on long term medications. How old is he again?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Wouldn't pulmonary abscesses show on an X-Ray? Just curious. Thanks


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Gribouilli said:


> Wouldn't pulmonary abscesses show on an X-Ray? Just curious. Thanks


If a vet is looking for them. Tiny white spots.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Thanks good to know


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> None of the meds out there are specifically for rats, but ironically they were all tested on them. My rat got Enalapril and Lasix and it helped If there is no fluid around her lungs/heart, it isn't CHF meaning that it is probably URI or something in her environment that irritate her respiratory system. Although the enlarged heart might mean that CHF could happen in the next few months. Enalapril is prescribed to make the heart work more efficiently. Could you remind us what meds she is still on right now, and how she is doing now if any different.


Yeah, i know (which is ridiculous considering, as you say, they're mostly tested on them). i think that vet may be less confident with using meds outside of licensed uses though. while i've found them to be good with surgeries in the past, and very good with the rats, i think the only med i've been prescribed by that vet for rats is baytril (which i'm pretty sure is the only licensed ab for rats, could be wrong). that was a reason i started using the exotic (and pricier) vets.
he is currently on a baytril/doxy combo (6.5 mg baytril, 5mg doxy) twice daily, and will be on it til thursday (it's a 14 day course). i've also started giving him a supplement of co-q10 15mg daily, along with a small amount of ground flax. i'm also giving some cooked sweet potato daily for vitamin a to help with general recovery.
good to know it isn't chf at that point, do you think waiting and seeing with the heart is best at this point then? 
his current condition is a little better, i think. obviously better than when he was having the episodes. he's eating normally, interested in things, no issues getting around, mostly his same old sels currently. he just shakes slightly with his breathing, and his sides consistantly go in a tad more noticeably than before. but since it's a bit better today, i'm hoping it continues to improve. but both times the severe episodes were really unexpected, so i feel like i'm just waiting for the next one, and can't explain it.



Gribouilli said:


> The meds you tried didn't make her worse. There is something going on with her. I'm not familiar with science select rat, I use Oxbow regal adult. I would cut the peanut butter and other foods that you give her that are well known allergy triggering foods. Not that those foods are unhealthy but in the off chance that she is allergic to one of them. I would actually stop everything but the rat pellets for a few days and see if it helps.


okay, i'll keep them on just pellets and see how it goes. the science selective was the best looking nuggeted food i could find in the uk. if it was a food allergy, would the diphenhydramine have immediately improved the symptoms though? he actually hadn't had anything peanut related for quite a while before his first attack. i only gave the peanut butter smoothies the day after, when he'd got the meds from the vet, because he's historically been very good at identifying, and avoiding, medication. so i doubt peanuts would be the overall cause at least.
one thing i'm just thinking, could heat be affecting things, perhaps in conjunction with the enlarged heart? we tend to have the central heating on, and my room tends to be 20-21 degrees celcius at some points.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Meds used on animals where it wasn't specifically made for them is called off-label use. considering NO medications were made for rats everything is off-label use...I always find this hilarious.
> 
> I just read your entire thread and have other ideas and questions for you.
> 
> ...


i am in the uk, unfortunately (and, in some ways, fortunately), otherwise a number of things would be different. i've checked his chest, and thankfully it doesn't seem harder or rounder than i'd expect, and no different to his brother's. it's hard to know what's going on with his breathing. it's more just very rapid. it didn't look especially strenuous or forced to me, but very noticeable in his abdomen where it wouldn't be on other rats. he's about a year and 8 months, give or take.



lilspaz68 said:


> If a vet is looking for them. Tiny white spots.


if it'd definitely show up on an xray, then i feel this is unlikely not to be the cause. the vet checked the lungs and said she couldn't see any signs of infection, and from looking at the xray myself, there were no white spots/patches at all on lungs or heart.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

i decided it might help to get a video of his breathing as it is now, which i've uploaded to youtube here:
https://youtu.be/BHMJvZyPvBE (that sound you hear is the lovebird on the other side of the room, not ripley btw)
if he has another bad episode i'll get a video then too.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

sorry to keep adding to this, i'm just constantly trying to figure this out.
i just stopped the probiotics in the water; i realised that was something that was consistant since before the breathing episodes. i also checked the ingredients and found it contained a bunch of sodium, not sure of the levels, but if ripley does have a heart issue, then i fear this could exacerbate it.
the ingredients are: 
composition: dextrose, sodium sulphate, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, 0.5% short-chain fructo-ogliosaccharide soluble-fibre prebiotic.
nutritional additives: vitamin c 2500mg. 
zootechnical additives: saccharomyces cerevisae (NCYC Sc47)- >4x10[SUP]1[/SUP][SUP]0[/SUP] 

i'm now going to give 1tsp plain soy yoghurt a day instead (leaving two hours at least from antibiotics). might get some human acidophilus or lactobacillus instead though.

i'm also wondering about a dietary change. currently they're both on supreme science select rat, which is this 
http://www.supremepetfoods.com/products/science-selective-rat/
but i just did a bunch of digging, and found mr johnsons advance rat and mouse food, and was thinking it might be better, though idk about the verm-x herb blend, and bio-moss (they look like they could be pretty positive, especially with antibiotics, but i can't find much).
http://www.mrjohnsons.co.uk/product-mr-johnsons-advance-rat--mouse-food.htm
the vit a in both seems kinda high though, but i can't find out how much is too much for rats.

any thoughts on any of this would be welcome.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Can you get Oxbow Regsl Adult where you live?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Your rat breathing look like my rat at the beginning of her CHF. I will post a video later for you to compare.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Can you get Oxbow Regsl Adult where you live?


it looks like we can get it online here (it's been out of stock on amazon every time i've checked before), but it costs about 4x the cost of the food i get because it has to be imported, and delivery to here takes a month or so (and i think there'd probs be import fees to pay too), so it's not the most ideal option practically, unfortunately. 



Gribouilli said:


> Your rat breathing look like my rat at the beginning of her CHF. I will post a video later for you to compare.


that's good to know. i'll see if i can get the x-ray forwarded to my regular vet for a second opinion and talk with them about the best option medication-wise soon then.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

alright, i'm surprised i didn't notice this before, but at 15lb or less, on amazon harlan teklad 2014 ships to the uk (i looked at the higher ones before to save shipping). i worked out the price as being about £4.41 per kg, which is somewhat comparable to the food i get now. with calculated import duty it's £5.22 per kg, which is tolerable, and it should last a while. so that looks like my next move for their diet. i just wish i'd figured it out sooner.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

ahhh i was wrong, going through the checkout the shipping is like £40. not what it showed on the product page.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Whoa that's crazy expensive!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

looks like there's a surcharge for bulky items - $1.99 per lb. that's so ridiculous.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Wondering how much it would be for someone living here to ship it to you from home?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> Wondering how much it would be for someone living here to ship it to you from home?


i don't know. i imagine couriers/customs aren't kind to heavy international deliveries, but it may well be cheaper than amazon's ridiculous surcharge. but maybe if it were reasonable, we'd already have people stocking it here, so idk.


with regards to ripley, i'm having his xray transferred to his regular vet, so i'm hoping to get somewhere with them now. his breathing seems about the same, with ups and downs, but he seems to be quite energetic tonight  this morning was his last dose of anti-biotics, so i'll be carefully monitoring how he does off them.
i've also ordered some of the mr johnsons advance rat and mouse for the time being - i realise that the only nutrients listed on their current food is vit d and vit a! this other has copper and various other nutrients, so hopefully that should be a step up at least.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

had some unfortunate events with the regular exotic vet. we'd expressed concerns about not being informed of the cost of a very expensive medication previously (which didn't even help), and when my mum brought in the xray today the practice manager got very aggressive towards her when she was surprised that they charge (it think it's £35) for the xray interpretation itself (we weren't told beforehand). the practice manager yelled at her to 'take your rat somewhere else' and almost had her thrown out, and was also expressing issue with my wanting to investigate other options as 'questioning her diagnosis' when she herself had seen ripley a grand total of once and, done no more diagnostics than listen to his breathing with a stethoscope (if that, i don't really remember).
so we're taking ripley somewhere else (calling up a possibility tomorrow, there aren't many around though), hopefully this new vet will respond to queries and input more appropriately, and actually care about ripley's treatment. i'm so stressed about this though, especially the timing, and really frustrated with the vet industry as it stands honestly.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> had some unfortunate events with the regular exotic vet. we'd expressed concerns about not being informed of the cost of a very expensive medication previously (which didn't even help), and when my mum brought in the xray today the practice manager got very aggressive towards her when she was surprised that they charge (it think it's £35) for the xray interpretation itself (we weren't told beforehand). the practice manager yelled at her to 'take your rat somewhere else' and almost had her thrown out, and was also expressing issue with my wanting to investigate other options as 'questioning her diagnosis' when she herself had seen ripley a grand total of once and, done no more diagnostics than listen to his breathing with a stethoscope (if that, i don't really remember).so we're taking ripley somewhere else (calling up a possibility tomorrow, there aren't many around though), hopefully this new vet will respond to queries and input more appropriately, and actually care about ripley's treatment. i'm so stressed about this though, especially the timing, and really frustrated with the vet industry as it stands honestly.


How rude and unprofessional! Sorry I hope you can find a better vet.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Here are some videos of my rat who had congestive heart failure. I hope they will play as I might have deleted one by mistake, might have to upload it again. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXu445W4i1whttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gnz3o3r-c_8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gnz3o3r-c_8


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

we're planning on writing to rcvs with a complaint about that practice manager's behaviour. even if she offered to take us back i wouldn't want her to - she yelled at mum that's ripley's illness is terminal and he's going to die really angrily and meanly apparently. not someone i trust at all now.

i have an appointment booked in with the exotic vet in a new practice for early tuesday. i have a half hour appointment and she'll go over the xray with me, and i've seen some reviews about her treatment of rats that makes me feel quite confident, along with those about other animals. 

thanks for sharing those videos, it does look incredibly close to ripley's breathing, so i figure the enlarged heart's the thing here. i hope medication makes him feel better (and i manage to get what he needs).
i'm also going to be switching the rats to a mix of aubiose hemp bedding and finacard when it arrives early next week. i feel it might cheer them up to have something to dig in and move around properly, and probably be warmer.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good luck with the new vet. I hope you get clear answers this time. How awful how your mum was treated by that manager


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

just saw the new vet. she was really great! she took a look at the x-ray and said he has a quite enlarged heart, and fluid on the lungs too! the vet who took the x-ray said she didn't see anything on the lungs, and it's only slightly enlarged.
this new vet prescribed ripley an ACE inhibitor which was £45, but enough for more than 1000 doses/days, and a diuretic, both of which he'll be on for life. the ACE inhibitor is called prilium and i think the active ingredient is imadapril. it's in liquid form, which i find more comfortabel than if i'd got tablets (she offered both forms). the diuretic is furosemide (same as lasix, but in this case the brand frusol).
the vet also said that whilst it happens with age, there are often genetic tendencies, so i'll be keeping a keen eye on his brother.
she also suggested something called oxbow immune support, to help his immune system. it looks to be a herbal product, and i can get it easily on amazon. anyone had any experiences with it?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> just saw the new vet. she was really great! she took a look at the x-ray and said he has a quite enlarged heart, and fluid on the lungs too! the vet who took the x-ray said she didn't see anything on the lungs, and it's only slightly enlarged.this new vet prescribed ripley an ACE inhibitor which was £45, but enough for more than 1000 doses/days, and a diuretic, both of which he'll be on for life. the ACE inhibitor is called prilium and i think the active ingredient is imadapril. it's in liquid form, which i find more comfortabel than if i'd got tablets (she offered both forms). the diuretic is furosemide (same as lasix, but in this case the brand frusol).the vet also said that whilst it happens with age, there are often genetic tendencies, so i'll be keeping a keen eye on his brother.she also suggested something called oxbow immune support, to help his immune system. it looks to be a herbal product, and i can get it easily on amazon. anyone had any experiences with it?


I'm happy you found a good vet😀. I never used Oxbow immune support, so I can't help. The COq10 will help so keep giving it. I used/use a couple other products but can't remember how it is called now- I'll post it later. Let us know how the meds work. Fingers crossed.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I'm happy you found a good vet. I never used Oxbow immune support, so I can't help. The COq10 will help so keep giving it. I used/use a couple other products but can't remember how it is called now- I'll post it later. Let us know how the meds work. Fingers crossed.


thanks for the support, i feel pretty good finally after all that. i've ordered the immune support, so will feed back on anything i notice. according to the vet, it's basically like a treat to the rats, so shouldn't be hard to give. she apparently recommends it in the event of any chronic conditions, to prevent further issues like infections. i might use it for erin too, if he may have a tendedncy towards heart conditions i want to do what i can to keep his immmune system up.
be great to know what else you used and how that went. i see on ratguide that taurine and l-carnitine are recommended, so might try those too. there are both powder and tablet forms, but the tablet doses are huge. i'm thinking of getting the pure powders and using some sensitive (to two decimal places) scales to weigh out the mg needed, to save the crushing, mixing and syringing. i can mix it into smoothie for a supplement drink nightly.
i'll let you know how things go now he's finally on meds. how long does the diuretic usually take to take effect?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The diuretic takes about 20 mins to work. If it is an injection it works within a couple minutes.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> The diuretic takes about 20 mins to work. If it is an injection it works within a couple minutes.


ah. it's not an injection thankfully (i'd be worried about giving them). i was thinking his breathing was looking a little better, but wondered if it was too soon to be seeing any effects - it does vary a little anyway.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The other med can take a few days to work. The meds will make her feel better, but if it is CHF there Is no cure, just meds and supplements to make her feel better.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> The other med can take a few days to work. The meds will make her feel better, but if it is CHF there Is no cure, just meds and supplements to make her feel better.


i know. it's just a relief to have a definitive answer and be able to do something for him now. i just want to give him the longest, and most decent life i can.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I've been offline for a few days. I'm SO glad you have an answer and are taking care of him. 
Please give us updates to let us know how he's doing!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I've been offline for a few days. I'm SO glad you have an answer and are taking care of him.
> Please give us updates to let us know how he's doing!


yeah, after all that stress it feels good, despite the nature of the diagnosis.

he seems to be doing okay. his breathing isn't so bad - his whole body isn't shaking now, and there are more periods where it seems close to normal. his appetite's still good too, and he's still curious and energetic - when not sleeping with his brother. still no symptoms showing up other than the breathing ones. i have the taurine and carnitine powders ready to try, i'll have some decent scales tomorrow to weigh out the right mg, and i'll see if i can talk to the vet to let her know i'll be trying them and double check doseage. he's taking his medicines fine too, which is great - i'd hate for him to suddenly start up again with the pickiness now.
i started him on the oxbow immune support today too (as well as his brother to be safe). they seem to like the taste. the tablets are very hard to cut though, and the doseage is 1/4 tab a day for rats. but that means the 60 tabs will last 240 doses, which'll be 120 days with the 2 of them, so not bad.
i keep feeling like if i'd gone with this vet to begin with, maybe it'd have been caught earlier. or the resp infections treated better, reducing impact on his heart. or maybe his diet was lacking and that's why. part of me doesn't want to feel responsible, but the other just wants there to be a reason i can put my finger on, cause it's not fair for these things to just happen.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Sorry I didn't come back to you sooner. The supplement I used for CHF is called vetriscience Cardio Strength. My vet said to give 1/8 of a capsule a day.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Sorry I didn't come back to you sooner. The supplement I used for CHF is called vetriscience Cardio Strength. My vet said to give 1/8 of a capsule a day.


thanks for finding that for me, that's very helpful. how much were you giving per day? it's probably not worth me getting something all encompassing like that, since i already have a fair few of those supplements covered, but good to see what supplements can be given. how much were you giving daily? 
i have magnesium and maybe folic acid supps i use for myself i could use, and i could give a little bit of brazil nut for selenium (and maybe magnesium and potassium i think?).


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I know it's hard, but don't let yourself feel guilty.

I used to have a the most awsome veterinarian. I really loved working with her because she really cared about my pets. She was my vet for over ten years. In addtion to being a great vet, I stayed with her because when your vet knows you, they are much more likely to let you pay things out if you don't have all the money up front. Thankfully, I never had to do that. 

I don't know what happened, but she stopped caring. I had 2 cats that died horrible deaths. I put the blame primarily on her. She quit answering emergency calls. She didn't even give another vets name to call in emergencies, which is standard practice here. 

It took me a long time to get over that. I hated myself for not thinking of things to do before they died. Things I could have done different. When a pet is sick, it's a very stressful thing to go through. I had what I thought was a great vet so I wouldn't have to second guess everything and just let the vet take care of things. I wished I had done more, but what could I have done??

You can't blame yourself for not knowing something if you had no way to know about it. You followed your gut and followed through with it. Your rat will have the best life possible. You probably don't realize how many people would not even bother with everything you've done for him, which is everything you could have done.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> thanks for finding that for me, that's very helpful. how much were you giving per day? it's probably not worth me getting something all encompassing like that, since i already have a fair few of those supplements covered, but good to see what supplements can be given. how much were you giving daily? i have magnesium and maybe folic acid supps i use for myself i could use, and i could give a little bit of brazil nut for selenium (and maybe magnesium and potassium i think?).


My vet said 1/8 capsule/day. I believe she was about 380g. I made peanut butter balls to give it to her. She loved thosehttp://ratguide.com/meds/figures/compounding_medications_figure_1.php


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I know it's hard, but don't let yourself feel guilty.
> 
> I used to have a the most awsome veterinarian. I really loved working with her because she really cared about my pets. She was my vet for over ten years. In addtion to being a great vet, I stayed with her because when your vet knows you, they are much more likely to let you pay things out if you don't have all the money up front. Thankfully, I never had to do that.
> 
> ...


thanks for that reassurance, and i'm terribly sorry you've also had an awful vet experience, that sounds absolutely horrible for you  i felt the same about my previous vet. i was paying a bit more for consultations with them so i wouldn't have to second guess everything since they specialise in exotics, and i feel let down and like they didn't actually care now.

i feel like vets have a lack of accountability, especially with shorter lived animals like rats, where people can't sue because there'd be next to no possible financial gain to cover legal costs. looking into the complaints process for vets, the rcvs can only deal with specific kinds of complaints, for others you have to hire solicitors. if the complaint gets nowhere, we may try to go through the financial ombudsman. my mum does complaints for a living, so that helps. i just don't want to feel like they can just treat people like that with no accountability.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> My vet said 1/8 capsule/day. I believe she was about 380g. I made peanut butter balls to give it to her. She loved thosehttp://ratguide.com/meds/figures/compounding_medications_figure_1.php


thanks for that, i'll figure out the doses of the other supplements with that  the medicine balls seem like a great idea for supplements too, but wouldn't they be a bit chewy? i wouldn't want to give anything that could cause choking. i can't really figure out the texture from the pictures.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> thanks for that, i'll figure out the doses of the other supplements with that  the medicine balls seem like a great idea for supplements too, but wouldn't they be a bit chewy? i wouldn't want to give anything that could cause choking. i can't really figure out the texture from the pictures.


The flour changes the overall texture. It didn't seem like something a rat could choke on at all. I still used smooth peanut butter (no added salt, very important in CHF and in general for rats) to be extra safe. I love those especially since she was losing weight.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I really don't know what to compare it to for texture. Instead of being sticky and chewy, it was more dry and flaky.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> The flour changes the overall texture. It didn't seem like something a rat could choke on at all. I still used smooth peanut butter (no added salt, very important in CHF and in general for rats) to be extra safe. I love those especially since she was losing weight.





Gribouilli said:


> I really don't know what to compare it to for texture. Instead of being sticky and chewy, it was more dry and flaky.


ah, okay, i'll give that recipe a shot. will save me a little work mixing out the supplements every day if he likes it. 
the only peanut butter we have in the house is smooth, and made only of peanuts - nothing added, so i shouldn't have salt issues with that.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

update:
ripley's still doing okay on the meds, and both of them decided the oxbow immune support isn't worth the effort of chewing them, cause they're so hard, so i'm now soaking the 1/4 tabs for them.
took erin to the vets today with his respiratory symptoms (the baytril didn't do it) and cause i noted on tuesday his urine looked a tad dark and there wasn't much of it. the vet suggested septrin, sending in a urine sample, and getting an x-ray if that doesn't clear it up, but i went with my gut and got him x-rayed today. the x-ray showed that he ALSO has a quite enlarged heart, and some fluid in his lungs, so i'm gonna start him on the heart med and diuretic today. so glad i got the huge bottle of the ace inhibitor for ripley, cause they can now share it and it'll last a while. i feel pretty certain there's a genetic component here now. at least they'll be getting the same meds, so there should be no real jealousy to contest with now.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

realised i should probably update on how the two troublemakers are doing. ripley's breathing isn't normal, but is relatively improved and consistant now. it was getting worse when approaching the time for the ace inhibitor, but the vet increased his doseage slightly, and that's improved. both rats have much more energy than they had before. they want to come out every evening, and chew on the bars to show me. they get very excited and brux-y when exploring my room, and have a lot more curiosity and interest in things. also actively trying to get places i don't want them to, just like when they were younger. it's only an hour or so an evening, but it's very nice 
i've got the routine for the medicine down, and have been making the suggested medicine balls for the various supplements, which they love. though of course, being such a perfectionist, i weighed out each individual ball to be 1/20th of the total weight (taking almost an hour), rather than the way suggested. the oxbow immune support became unappealing to them again, so i'm now grinding them up which makes about 1tsp per tablet, and giving 1/4tsp a day mixed with a little soya milk and their probiotics. i've looked into the immune support ingredients even more now, and a lot seem to have direct benefits for heart conditions too, which is handy.

i took them in for a check up on wednesday, and the vet said they're sounding a lot better. she also noted that with the hearts using less energy, their weights have started increasing, especially for erin, so i'm watching what they eat.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm really, REALLY glad to hear that your rats are doing so much better! 

Years ago, I had a very, very sick cat. I really didn't think she was going to make it and I was very scared. 

Since she had been getting most of my attention being so sick, I gave my other cat a special dinner of Sheba's canned food. I will never forget that day because it was the day Samantha jumped off the bed and started eating on her own again! 

I imagine you must be feeling the same elation I felt that day! 

I'm so happy for you and your ratties!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I'm really, REALLY glad to hear that your rats are doing so much better!
> 
> Years ago, I had a very, very sick cat. I really didn't think she was going to make it and I was very scared.
> 
> ...


thanks  yeah, it's a real relief to see them feeling better, and knowing what's wrong. it's great to be doing all i can for them, and i love seeing them so happy as they are lately. ripley even manages to win a few fights, and gets to power groom erin sometimes at the moment. 
i'm glad things went well for your cat then too. it is so stressful to have that uncertainty when one of our animal friends are sick, i wish they could tell us how they're feeling and what they need properly.


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