# Smaller rat bullies larger rat? Debating separate cages



## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

I got Jean and Ororo from a pet store a little over half a year ago (I'm aware that adopting is better than buying, the circumstances were special) from a litter that were being sold at a very low price, thus endangering the rats to be bought as feeders. The sisters did well in a cage with my previous rat, squabbling with each other (nothing intense, just playing) but never the older girl. When she passed on, the "squabbling" seemed to increase, but they've been raised together so I didn't think it was a huge issue. No blood was drawn, no injuries were had, everything was fine.

After a couple of months I realized a pattern; my smaller rat, Ororo (I believe she may have been the runt of the litter; Jean is full grown, and Ororo looks to be about half her size) was the one who initiated the squabbles, and the squeaking I heard from them almost always came exclusively from Jean, whom Ororo often pinned on her back or side. There was still no blood being drawn and no injuries to either girl, so I thought it was unusual but still okay. 

Within the past month, though, I've noticed that while Ororo doesn't injure Jean or make her bleed, she takes the fur out from the back of her neck (and within the past week, the side of her neck). I tried looking it up to see what this could mean, but I haven't found anything definite, and I'm at a loss. I don't like that Ororo is removing Jean's fur, and though Jean shows no signs of genuine stress from any of this (aside from squeaking while they're squabbling), I'm worried that it could escalate even further or Jean may get fed up and attack Ororo in turn.

They get along fine when they're out of the cage, and most of the time in the cage, too. They sleep together, groom each other, and play together, and they show no signs of aggression toward each other outside of their squabbles (which don't seem to be caused by anything, either). The squabbles always stop when I get up to check on them, and they don't avoid each other afterward or look distressed. I've been thinking about moving them to separate cages for sleeping and when I'm not around to keep an eye on them, but I'm worried that even with the time they'd spend together outside of the cage when I'm home they might genuinely grow aggressive toward each other while outside of their cages. I'd really like some other opinions or advice on what I should do.


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## LilysPets (Jul 1, 2016)

Does Ororo literally pull the fur off Jean? Since you said there is blood, it's definitely a concern. 

Two months ago, one of my male rats became extremely aggressive, even to his brother. Eventually after keeping an eye on him, he bit a finger off his brother and so I had to separate him since. 

If it gets worse, I would consider separating them tbh.


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## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

LilysPets said:


> Does Ororo literally pull the fur off Jean? Since you said there is blood, it's definitely a concern.


Yes, she does literally pull the fur off-- Jean has bald patches now, I can post pictures if you'd like them for a better reference. But no, I said there is NO blood, which is why I'm at a loss... It's almost like she's not doing it to hurt Jean; she never bites her ears (or any other part of her) or does anything except for pinning her and removing her fur. I don't know if it's a display of dominance or what, but I don't like that the fur is being removed. I can't find anything about it, so I'm assuming it's not exactly a common behavior..?


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## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

I'm also at a loss with this one, I've never heard anything like it. The pinning her down is just how rats play with each other and is of no concern, the fur pulling however I wouldn't say that's normal rat behaviour. If blood isn't being drawn then I wouldn't say you have any reason to separate them but just keep a close eye. I've never heard of a dominant rat establishing it by balding their cage mates, that's pretty unusual. It may just be rough grooming.


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## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

It's a behavior called barbering. It's likely a dominance thing and your rat is power grooming her cage mate, resulting in her pulling fur out. Maybe a more experienced member can help you out with this situation, I wouldn't know what advice to give you on it, but maybe searches on barbering will yield better results?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Are you 100% sure the other rat is pulling out the fur? If Jean is doing it herself, that is often a sign of mites. That is a very common spot. 
There is also the case where if she does have mites and has been grooming herself alot there it could just be drawing the attention of Ororo to it and she is just grooming the spot because it is different.

I would suggest treating them for mites and seeing if this fixes anything. 

I had a female that whenever she was in heat she would power groom her cage mates and often leave them raw! Power grooming can be a reaction to girls in heat. That doesn't mean it is ok though.

The no blood rule is ofcourse good advice, but you still have to look at the whole picture. If the behavior is getting to the point where the other rat is becoming stressed then it is not ok either. You just have to judge if the other girl is still happy/healthy with her cagemate or if she is stressing her out or making her life not quite so good.


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## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

Sabatea said:


> It's a behavior called barbering. It's likely a dominance thing and your rat is power grooming her cage mate, resulting in her pulling fur out. Maybe a more experienced member can help you out with this situation, I wouldn't know what advice to give you on it, but maybe searches on barbering will yield better results?


Thank you! I'll be sure to look up barbering, hopefully it will help.



moonkissed said:


> Are you 100% sure the other rat is pulling out the fur? If Jean is doing it herself, that is often a sign of mites. That is a very common spot.
> There is also the case where if she does have mites and has been grooming herself alot there it could just be drawing the attention of Ororo to it and she is just grooming the spot because it is different.
> 
> I would suggest treating them for mites and seeing if this fixes anything.


I'm pretty sure it's Ororo, yes-- Jean doesn't touch those spots from what I've seen, and I don't think they're in areas she can even reach herself..? Here are some pictures (excuse less than stellar quality-- it's play time and I had difficulty keeping her still).





















It's the top back of her head down to part of her neck and the left side of her neck. I don't think it's mites, because Ororo doesn't do anything similar and if one had mites for all this time (this has been a problem for several months) wouldn't Ororo be displaying symptoms as well? I won't say mites are totally off the table or anything, I want to do what's best for my ratties, I just really think this is a behavioral thing.



moonkissed said:


> I had a female that whenever she was in heat she would power groom her cage mates and often leave them raw! Power grooming can be a reaction to girls in heat. That doesn't mean it is ok though.
> 
> 
> The no blood rule is ofcourse good advice, but you still have to look at the whole picture. If the behavior is getting to the point where the other rat is becoming stressed then it is not ok either. You just have to judge if the other girl is still happy/healthy with her cagemate or if she is stressing her out or making her life not quite so good.


I'd say it could be heat if it didn't happen so often-- I haven't seen the fur ever regrown at all except for a two-week period where the girls were kept isolated from each other while one was on antibiotics. Like I said, neither of the girls seem concerned about the fur loss and Jean shows no signs of distress outside of when she's being pinned, and she never retaliates. I seem to be the only one of the three of us who's worried, haha. Jean doesn't seem stressed yet, I just want to avoid that happening in the future.


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## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

Okay, I SWEAR I replied to this with a pretty long message earlier, but it's nowhere to be seen..?


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## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

Okay, guess I'll rewrite it.

Thank you for the info about barbering, at this point I've looked it up and I believe that's what is happening!

Yes, I'm 100% it's Ororo, not Jean-- it's places Jean can't even reach herself (the top of her head and part of the back of her neck, as well as the right side of her neck), and the only time it's ever started to groe back was the two weeks i had the girls separated because one of them was on an antibiotic cream.

I don't think it's mites (Ororo doesn't show any symptoms of mites, and they spend so much time and space together that I believe she would have them if Jean did) but i won't say for sure it's not, because if that IS what's happening I obviously want to get it cleared up... After some research, though, it looks like it's barbering.

Jean doesn't seem to be stressed outside of when she's being pinned; neither of them seem worried about the lack of hair, just me. I don't want it to escalate or begin to stress Jean. Some sites said that one cause of barbering can be boredom, so I'll definitely be looking into new toys and changing their cage around...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

seeska said:


> Okay, I SWEAR I replied to this with a pretty long message earlier, but it's nowhere to be seen..?


If you get the "this message is awaiting moderator approval", it got put in the mod queue. Attachments and hotlinked URLs tend to make this happen. I have to manually approve every single post that gets put in, so it can take me a few days to get through it. You can send me a message with a reminder if it takes longer.


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## seeska (Mar 15, 2017)

Jaguar said:


> If you get the "this message is awaiting moderator approval", it got put in the mod queue. Attachments and hotlinked URLs tend to make this happen. I have to manually approve every single post that gets put in, so it can take me a few days to get through it. You can send me a message with a reminder if it takes longer.


Oh, no problem! I must have missed the thing that told me it was awaiting approval, sorry!


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