# Pet Rat virus just discovered in Illinois and Wisconsin



## Catsratz

(CNN)The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention confirmed Friday that pet rats are the source of an outbreak of Seoul virus infections in Illinois and Wisconsin. The virus has been confirmed in eight patients in an ongoing investigation.











The recent cases are "the first human cases we've seen in the United States associated with pet rats," said Dr. Jennifer McQuiston, a veterinarian and deputy division director for CDC's division of high consequent pathogens and pathology. Several previous outbreaks reported in the US occurred in wild rats. 
"There was an outbreak reported in Europe previously associated with pet rats, so it's not the first time this has been associated with pets worldwide," McQuiston said.
Investigation in Wisconsin leads to Illinois
The initial patient in the current outbreak, a resident of Wisconsin, visited a hospital with flu-like symptoms, according to Stephanie Smiley, director of the bureau of communicable disease with Wisconsin Department of Health Services. The patient was a home-based rodent breeder. 
Because of the patient's exposure to rodents, the doctor had a "hunch" to test for hantavirus, explained Smiley.

Cats, the ultimate weapon in public health


Following a positive test result for hantavirus in late December, Wisconsin health officials sent a sample from the patient to the CDC along with a separate sample from a second patient -- a family member who also worked with rodents. 
On January 11, the CDC confirmed infections with Seoul virus, a rodent-borne hantavirus, in both patients. 
Though related, Seoul virus is considered different from hantavirus and it is not typically seen in the US, said McQuiston. 
"This is typically associated with a milder illness than we think about with the classic hantavirus we talk about in the US, but it can be, in rare cases, associated with some more severe symptoms, such as renal disease," said McQuiston.
According to Smiley, symptoms of Seoul virus can include fever, chills, nausea, pink eye-type eye infection and abdominal pain. Though it rarely happens, a simple infection can progress to hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, which begins with fever, severe aches and fatigue, and may turn fatal. 

Is your pet going to make you ill?


Seoul virus symptoms often develop within one to two weeks after contact, but can take as long as eight weeks to appear, said Smiley.
Both of the Wisconsin patients have since recovered, but the discovery of infection led to a follow-up investigation at several rat suppliers, which revealed an additional six cases of Seoul virus among workers at two Illinois breeding facilities, according to Melaney Arnold, a spokeswoman for the Illinois Department of Public Health. She added these cases were confirmed by the CDC on January 18.
"Six people tested positive for Seoul virus, but only one experienced illness," said Arnold, explaining that five people showed no symptoms of the virus, which cannot be transmitted among people, regardless of whether symptoms are present or not. The one patient who became sick has since recovered.
Public health officials said that more ratteries and more infected people may be identified as the investigation proceeds. 
A 'complicated' investigation
Usually people become infected when they come in contact with infectious fluids, such as blood, saliva and urine, from infected rats, or are bitten by them. Infected rats typically do not appear sick. 







Worldwide, the Seoul virus is carried by wild Norway rats.




Worldwide, the Seoul virus is carried by wild Norway rats, which first arrived on this continent during the late 1700s and then began to dominate urban centers throughout the country. Most infections among people have been reported in Asia. 
"Illinois Department of Public Health is currently working with local health departments and the ratteries to identify clients and people who may have been exposed to the rats, but the total numbers are unknown," said Arnold. The state's health department is working with both the CDC and the Wisconsin Department of Public Health to try to identify the origin of the rats.
Meanwhile, the CDC is working with local and state health authorities in both states to continue testing rats and humans for Seoul virus infections.
McQuiston explained that the CDC has been tracing back to where rats may have come from, and tracing out to where rats may have gone from the facilities where Seoul virus infections occurred. 

Diseases you thought were gone


"It's been fairly complicated," said McQuiston, adding that the CDC believes so far that the virus has not spread beyond or outside "the network that we're investigating right now."
Anyone who recently purchased a rat in the affected areas and experiences Seoul virus symptoms should contact their healthcare provider immediately.
People in Illinois and Wisconsin who have purchased or come in contact with rats from the affected breeders should contact their local or state health departments.
"Our general recommendation is that anybody who has a pet rodent or pet rat should be cognizant of good pet care behavior," said McQuiston.
Caring for a pet rat
To prevent diseases or infections carried by rats, people should wash their hands with soap and running water after touching or feeding rodents or cleaning their habitats. Children need to be assisted with their handwashing. 

The virus hunters in search of the next outbreak 


Whenever possible, pet owners should clean and disinfect rodent cages and supplies outside the home -- never perform this clean-up in the kitchen or bathroom. Wear gloves, if possible, to avoid coming into contact with droppings or urine.
Because pet rodents can shed germs and contaminate areas where they roam, make sure their cages are properly secured and safe.
Avoid bites and scratches from any rodent. Even if an animal seems friendly, be cautious. Routinely visit your veterinarian to keep a pet rodent healthy and disease-free.
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If bitten or scratched, wash the wound with warm soapy water immediately. Even healthy pets can carry germs.
See a doctor if the pet appears sick, if the wound is serious, if the wound turns red, painful, warm or swollen, if your last tetanus shot was more than five years ago or if you develop sudden fever or flu-like illness within two weeks after being bitten.
"We have seen occasional rare cases of Seoul virus infections in the US but those have not been linked to pet rodents. It's thought that they were more linked to wild rat exposure," said McQuiston. "We do know Seoul virus can circulate in wild rat populations -- really around the world. We don't really know how often or common it is, it's not a very well studied virus in that respect."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/20/health/pet-rats-seoul-virus-outbreak-cdc-bn/index.html


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## Grotesque

As someone who lives in Wisconsin and obviously deals with a lot of rats, I am going to get looked at just in case. Thanks so much for this info!


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## moonkissed

I just wanted to add that MANY breeders right now, from all over the US even those who have no way possible to be concerned are temporarily closing with a no rats in or out rule until the CDC investigation is over.
Mostly as a show of support for those breeders but also to show that we put the health of our rats and people above sales and to encourage no one to buy any rats during this time. Things like this spread easily, many breeders were involved from sharing rats. Rats are shared all the time across states. Until the CDC's investigation is over it is much safer to not buy any rats.

I highly advise everyone to not purchase any rats at this time. Even more so from unknown sources or where they have brought in any new rats recently.

Also everyone should send support and good thoughts for all those involved!

Help spread the word! Give support to those breeders choosing to be responsible and enourage others not to buy at this time.


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## thepumpkinrat

My friend from Illinois just sent me an article on this yesterday, she's got two berkshire boys that she got from a breeder 5(ish) months ago. They weren't from any breeder that has been confirmed to be associated with the virus. Should I tell her to get checked out? Also is it true that only "brown rats" carry it? That's what I was told by someone but maybe they were confused about Norway rats vs Rat coat colors?


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## Grotesque

thepumpkinrat said:


> My friend from Illinois just sent me an article on this yesterday, she's got two berkshire boys that she got from a breeder 5(ish) months ago. They weren't from any breeder that has been confirmed to be associated with the virus. Should I tell her to get checked out? Also is it true that only "brown rats" carry it? That's what I was told by someone but maybe they were confused about Norway rats vs Rat coat colors?


I would tell her. Every rat owner needs to know about this.


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## moonkissed

thepumpkinrat said:


> Also is it true that only "brown rats" carry it? That's what I was told by someone but maybe they were confused about Norway rats vs Rat coat colors?


All of our pet rats are Rattus norvegicus. They are also called brown rat & norway rat. 

All the same rat, just different names. 

Our pet rats can carry it  It is very very rare though. They likely came in contact with wild rats in some way. 

One of the breeders who was infected had all her rats taken to be tested and put down  Other breeders who had contact are having their rats tested.


Everyone should definitely be aware of this. But I wouldn't worry or panic at all.


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## Supergirl_s

How common would it be for our pets to have this. Is it reall so serious that we could get it just from breathing the air or touching our rats?


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## Jokerfest

This is really sad  I feel horrible for the rats and people involved.


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## moonkissed

Supergirl_s said:


> How common would it be for our pets to have this. Is it reall so serious that we could get it just from breathing the air or touching our rats?


It is insanely rare. These are some of the first cases of people ever getting it in the US even.

Wild rats do carry it and it is why we stress don't handle wild rodents. They are not pets. Do not catch them. That is very likely what happened though it is not known at this time.

Our pets do not naturally have it, they likely were in contact with wild rats that did.

It is carried by blood, feces, urine and saliva. it can be kicked up in the bedding & such and infect us that way as well. So yes if your rats have it you likely would as well. 


This is something we all should take very very seriously. But also it is not something that should cause a panic. It is highly unlikely any of our pets are infected that have not been in contact with the infected rats. The only real issue is that we do not know how long ago rats were infected or how wide spread it could be. 



Also in case no one has heard the CDC is planning on removing and euthanizing all of one of the breeders who tested positive rats. My heart goes out to her  This is a very tragic incident.


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## Supergirl_s

That is so sad! How devistating that must be for them.


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## Asiposea

How heartbreaking for ratteries to go through this, I can't even imagine! Do we know if the breeders involved are just small hobby/pet breeders or were any of them larger scale breeders that supply frozen feeders or mills (in which case reptile owners will have the same problem)?

I'm not concerned for my bunch, but I did find the CDC's recommendation for preventing contracting this from pet rats rather hopeless, like moonkissed pointed out (avoid direct contact with urine, feces, saliva and don't get scratched, don't use a dry vacuum because it's airborne too, etc).


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## moonkissed

> How heartbreaking for ratteries to go through this, I can't even imagine! Do we know if the breeders involved are just small hobby/pet breeders or were any of them larger scale breeders that supply frozen feeders or mills (in which case reptile owners will have the same problem)?


Some of them are very well known breeders. And as such their rats could potentially be everywhere and it could have spread far and wide. 

They were not mills. I am not sure if they supplied food or not. I do know one of the breeders who tested positive had snakes and the CDC took all of them too. 
Someone who worked in a pet shop said they got rats from one of the breeders (idk if it were for food or pets) & idk if it is even true.

We just have no idea how contained it is right now. 

I STRONGLY suggest no one buys any rats from ANY source right now, until the CDC investigation is over. 

You can have your rats tested. The test itself is like $11 but some states require you to work through your vet so your vet may charge more. 
http://www.idexxbioresearch.com/opti-spot-sop


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## Heatherl

I read it came from a commercial breeding facility (feeders- pet store rats from rat mills). All it takes is going to a pet store and bringing the virus back to your home. Not going to set foot in a pet store any time soon.


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## Heatherl

If you get your rats tested and they test positive, they will be killed! Be aware of that. I love my rats, I'm not going to get them tested. No way.


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## moonkissed

Heatherl said:


> I read it came from a commercial breeding facility (feeders- pet store rats from rat mills). All it takes is going to a pet store and bringing the virus back to your home. Not going to set foot in a pet store any time soon.


No it was first found among hobby breeders. The breeder herself & her son were sick. She had to go to the hospital for it where she tested positive for it. They traced the rats and other breeders who had contact tested them and they were positive as well. Though I believe no one else was sick or showing any symptoms. People tested positive before any rats were ever tested. 
http://www.dph.illinois.gov/news/il...orts-six-cases-viral-illness-linked-ratteries


Honestly there are other viruses too out there that make it very unsafe to ever visit a pet store where rats are sold 



> If you get your rats tested and they test positive, they will be killed! Be aware of that. I love my rats, I'm not going to get them tested. No way.


Ofcourse if any animal has a virus that can be spread it needs to be euthanized so it does not spread it. While some people are afraid that the CDC will just swoop in, it is pretty doubtful when just having it tested yourself. But the animal should be put down. 
And IMO it is far better to know then not know. Atleast if you know you can take precautions. And get yourself in to see a doctor, because you likely have it as well.

I love my rats with all of my heart. But I also love myself, my family and others. This virus is not super deadly but it can kill people or make people very sick. 

People who do not euthanize the sick rats put not only other people at risk but risk spreading it further. 

Some people are saying this may have started a year ago when rats tested positive and nothing was done! 

Lets just say this thing spreads all over, what will that mean for the future of our pet rats? How many more people are going to have to lose all of their rats because of it?


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## Heatherl

moonkissed said:


> No it was first found among hobby breeders. The breeder herself & her son were sick. She had to go to the hospital for it where she tested positive for it. They traced the rats and other breeders who had contact tested them and they were positive as well. Though I believe no one else was sick or showing any symptoms. People tested positive before any rats were ever tested. http://www.dph.illinois.gov/news/il...orts-six-cases-viral-illness-linked-ratteriesHonestly there are other viruses too out there that make it very unsafe to ever visit a pet store where rats are sold Ofcourse if any animal has a virus that can be spread it needs to be euthanized so it does not spread it. While some people are afraid that the CDC will just swoop in, it is pretty doubtful when just having it tested yourself. But the animal should be put down. And IMO it is far better to know then not know. Atleast if you know you can take precautions. And get yourself in to see a doctor, because you likely have it as well.I love my rats with all of my heart. But I also love myself, my family and others. This virus is not super deadly but it can kill people or make people very sick. People who do not euthanize the sick rats put not only other people at risk but risk spreading it further. Some people are saying this may have started a year ago when rats tested positive and nothing was done! Lets just say this thing spreads all over, what will that mean for the future of our pet rats? How many more people are going to have to lose all of their rats because of it?


I never said it wasn't first reported in the rats of that breeder. I said they think it came from a commercial breeding facility. All it could have taken is that breeder going to a pet store and bringing that virus back to her rattery. First reported DOESNT mean it originated there- it could have been from somewhere else but never reported or maybe no one even noticed before.

How many people ever died from that virus in the US? The only person who died most likely had a compromised immune system and didn't seek medical help for weeks after the symptoms appeared- totally preventable. Now how many people die from the flue in the US? Thousands a year! And we don't go around killing people with the flu for fear that they will affect other people, do we? And they sure will each affect dozens, hundreds...and some of those will die as a result. 

So let say your rats HAVE the virus, your chance of dying from it is 1less than your chance of dying in a car crash today. Plus if your rats have it well you have already been exposed to it anyway. So I'm sorry but my personal opinion stays the same. If you love your rats don't get them tested because they will be killed. I believe people have the right to be informed of that. People have the right to know what will happen to their pets.


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## Ratologist

I live in MN and was wondering what my level of concern should be. We got our rats in October. So, I assume we'd know by now if someone in our household was going to get sick. I read this today, "To date, state health officials in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Wisconsin have been notified that their residents may have infected rats." https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/han00400.asp


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## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> I love my rats with all of my heart. But I also love myself, my family and others. This virus is not super deadly but it can kill people or make people very sick.
> 
> People who do not euthanize the sick rats put not only other people at risk but risk spreading it further.
> 
> Some people are saying this may have started a year ago when rats tested positive and nothing was done!
> 
> Lets just say this thing spreads all over, what will that mean for the future of our pet rats? How many more people are going to have to lose all of their rats because of it?


I believe as a pet owner I not only have a responsibility to my rats but also to the community. Hopefully this is a problem that will be isolated and easy to contain as I too can imagine some serious and devastating outcomes for the rodent fancy.

Is the test a matter of taking in a fecal sample?

EDIT- nevermind, I see in the link that a blood sample is required.


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## Jokerfest

SC is a bit close for comfort since I just got some new rats. But I think I'd be sick by now since they're very kissy boys and slobber all over my hands. I'll be staying out of petstores for a while.


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## moonkissed

Ratologist said:


> I live in MN and was wondering what my level of concern should be. We got our rats in October. So, I assume we'd know by now if someone in our household was going to get sick. I read this today, "To date, state health officials in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Wisconsin have been notified that their residents may have infected rats." https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/han00400.asp


Yep I popped into say that it is now being reported that those states as well may have infected 



> I believe as a pet owner I not only have a responsibility to my rats but also to the community. Hopefully this is a problem that will be isolated and easy to contain as I too can imagine some serious and devastating outcomes for the rodent fancy.
> 
> Is the test a matter of taking in a fecal sample?
> 
> EDIT- nevermind, I see in the link that a blood sample is required.


I agree. Sad that some people do not take things seriously and then we end up with major outbreaks. 

*in the Northeast there is also a SDA outbreak going around. *

I am a breeder so I definitely am not going to sell sick rats. But even as a pet owner I would be worried.

But mostly I do think about the rats involved. How many people are going to lose ALL of their rats right now because someone didn't test or did test and did nothing about it? Even if I were a lovely person and was going to keep my rats forever, what if I died tomorrow and my rats had to be rehomed? 

It is done by blood. I just got my testing kit today in the mail. The suggested method to get blood is to prick the base of the tail or to over trim a nail. My poor babies


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## Jokerfest

moonkissed said:


> It is done by blood. I just got my testing kit today in the mail. The suggested method to get blood is to prick the base of the tail or to over trim a nail. My poor babies


Oh my goodness.  I cant imagine how hard it is to test them and hear the squeaks, thank you for being a wonderful breeder and testing your babies. They're going to need a lot of love after those tests.


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## Kelsbels

moonkissed said:


> It is done by blood. I just got my testing kit today in the mail. The suggested method to get blood is to prick the base of the tail or to over trim a nail. My poor babies


Aww I hope they test negative for it. Fingers crossed for your babies!


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## Rattielover965

Kelsbels said:


> Aww I hope they test negative for it. Fingers crossed for your babies!


I do too


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## moonkissed

aww thank you all! I'm not worried. But better to be safe!


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## Trio of Trouble

Has there been any reports from Kentucky? Should I get my rats tested? I've had two for two years, and another since October. So, if the newb has , maybe she could have infected the others?


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## Heatherl

No one, I repeat no one ever died from that virus. I spoke too quickly. The flu is killing between 3000 and 20,000+ a year and no one is panicking half like a few breeders now for something that never killed anyone and that most likely (99.99999% chance) won't even kill 1 person anywhere in the US. So please stop panicking and making everyone worried for absolutely nothing.


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## Heatherl

Plus for a person to die from it she/he would have to have such a depressed immune system that likely the common flu or any of the millions of different viruses out there would get that person first. My point is nothing out of the ordinary here. I bet that virus has been in the US and pet rats for decades and no one ever noticed anything at all because no one got sick so far.


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## Grotesque

Wait... to test it you have to either prick the base of the tail (which I understand) or over trim a nail? I don't get the nail part. That bleeds a LOT. Like... a REAL lot. I just had an incident with Guy the other week and in a matter of seconds my bathroom looked like a murder scene. I thought he was going to die. 

I'd opt for the tail. Gosh our ratties don't deserve this.

Edited to add: I live in Southeast Wisconsin. I called my doctor on Monday and explained the situation. His nurse asked me a couple questions and then opted not to test me though told me not to get any more rats until this blows over and to use safety precautions.


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## moonkissed

Heatherl said:


> No one, I repeat no one ever died from that virus. I spoke too quickly. The flu is killing between 3000 and 20,000+ a year and no one is panicking half like a few breeders now for something that never killed anyone and that most likely (99.99999% chance) won't even kill 1 person anywhere in the US. So please stop panicking and making everyone worried for absolutely nothing.


I think you are mistaken about why people are getting upset.... 

It is not over the worry that people may get sick very much. Or that people will die. Even though eh still no breeder should EVER be selling a rat that carries any virus no matter how deadly or not deadly it is. That is not ethical.
And it is also easy to say no one has died or even been that sick when it is so rare. There hasn't really been an outbreak before. 

The CDC obviously cares....

Breeders are in a panic because we are watching our friends rats all be killed. Every single rat they owned. Their beloved pets, members of their family killed. Not to even mention the years and years of work, effort and dedication that went into those lines.

The one breeder had her rats euthanized yesterday, another today. I saw the pictures. They did it in her home. It made me cry. 


I am a breeder and I am used to life and death. I've had to cull rats even. But seeing that carried out.... it would have killed me. 

I can not even begin to imagine what they are going through. So yes breeders are scared and worried right now. 


The health department said they were shocked at how organized and large spread the rat community actually is and how we all share rats. By far most good breeders hopefully quarantine, but others do not and as this virus shows no symptoms it would unlikely go unnoticed in a quarantine. And there has actually been litter study on actual rats with he virus so there is conflicting info on how it is spread.

The CDC is looking directly at rat breeders right now. People are terrified that the CDC is going to come in and kill all of their rats. 

People are even afraid of what it will mean for the rat hobby. Now I don't think it will change anything but we never known. 



Also some are saying the CDC is doing free testing right now but there is alot of conflicting reports on if it is true or how they test.... some are saying they just kill your rats some are saying they don't. I'm not sure what is true. I personally would just do the testing myself its $11 lol


There is also a huge difference between panicing and being concered and taking things seriously. I have seen little panic. Most breeders are just being responsible & ethical. I do not believe I have any worry that this affects me or my rats. But I am still temporarily closed and testing because it is the right thing to do. I have a commitment to my rats and to the public to only sell healthy rats.




> Wait... to test it you have to either prick the base of the tail (which I understand) or over trim a nail? I don't get the nail part. That bleeds a LOT. Like... a REAL lot. I just had an incident with Guy the other week and in a matter of seconds my bathroom looked like a murder scene. I thought he was going to die.


You can use one of those things which I can't remember what it is called that stops the bleeding when you trim pet nails, afterwards.


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## Heatherl

I read more about the virus. It gets airborne when stuff like litter is moved around or when someone clean/vacuum the floor where infected rats have been hanging around...Most of wild rats (some sources say up to 90%) have it. They ALWAYS had it, I repeat, they ALWAYS HAD IT. The ONLY thing new is that you didn't know about it before. Ok now all rat mills have had some wild rats around at some point for sure, meaning that most likely all pet store rats always had it and no one got sick from it ever. Everyone ever visiting a pet store might have brought it back home too, infecting their rats. And none of those millions of people who got exposed to it ever got sick from it. So let's not run around like headless chickens, please. All commercial storage/ manufacture facilities where ALL the stuff you buy in supermarkets, or online...have been stored at some point; All the warehouses where the mails is stored before being shipped off to someplace else...have had rat infections. How many people work in those facilities? 10's of millions A YEAR in the US alone; yet no one EVER got sick from it. So really please stop the madness now. That state of total irrational panic will only have one outcome: thousands of pet rats ending in shelters and being killed for absolutely nothing whether they are infected or not. Not to mention all those sweet rats killed because their breeders got unnecessarily scared and irrational.


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## Jokerfest

Heatherl said:


> I read more about the virus. It gets airborne when stuff like litter is moved around or when someone clean/vacuum the floor where infected rats have been hanging around...Most of wild rats (some sources say up to 90%) have it. They ALWAYS had it, I repeat, they ALWAYS HAD IT. The ONLY thing new is that you didn't know about it before. Ok now all rat mills have had some wild rats around at some point for sure, meaning that most likely all pet store rats always had it and no one got sick from it ever. Everyone ever visiting a pet store might have brought it back home too, infecting their rats. And none of those millions of people who got exposed to it ever got sick from it. So let's not run around like headless chickens, please. All commercial storage/ manufacture facilities where ALL the stuff you buy in supermarkets, or online...have been stored at some point; All the warehouses where the mails is stored before being shipped off to someplace else...have had rat infections. How many people work in those facilities? 10's of millions A YEAR in the US alone; yet no one EVER got sick from it. So really please stop the madness now. That state of total irrational panic will only have one outcome: thousands of pet rats ending in shelters and being killed for absolutely nothing whether they are infected or not. Not to mention all those sweet rats killed because their breeders got unnecessarily scared and irrational.


You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if rats have always had it or not I'm not going to argue that because I dont personally know. The point is the CDC has their eyes on the rat fancy and is killing rats. People are scared more of the CDC then the virus itself because they're a powerful organization and could really affect the rat hobby if they wanted to. I'm pretty sure people are more worried about their rats being taken and killed then getting sick. I was just talking with another rat owner who is a really good friend and we were expressing our worry if this is widespread that the media will blow the situation up and rats dont need more stigma towards them then they already have.

Once again since moonkissed has tried to tell you to. People are worried about their rats. Not about getting sick.
We also cant just 'stop' the CDC is investigating and you cant just tell the CDC "Hey this isn't as serious as you think" because if they feel it's serious they're going to investigate regardless.


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## Heatherl

Jokerfest said:


> You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if rats have always had it or not I'm not going to argue that because I dont personally know. The point is the CDC has their eyes on the rat fancy and is killing rats. People are scared more of the CDC then the virus itself because they're a powerful organization and could really affect the rat hobby if they wanted to. I'm pretty sure people are more worried about their rats being taken and killed then getting sick. I was just talking with another rat owner who is a really good friend and we were expressing our worry if this is widespread that the media will blow the situation up and rats dont need more stigma towards them then they already have.Once again since moonkissed has tried to tell you to. People are worried about their rats. Not about getting sick.We also cant just 'stop' the CDC is investigating and you cant just tell the CDC "Hey this isn't as serious as you think" because if they feel it's serious they're going to investigate regardless.


With all due respect you probably haven't read Moonkissed's comments up to that last one nor noticed I was writing my last post while Moonkissed posted her last comment. 

Looks like you missed my point though which was the same since my very first comment: don't get your rats tested voluntarily unless you are ok with them all being killed. Once rats are tested, you are obligated to repost any positive results. It is only because some people were irrationally afraid about the impact on their health and other people's health that I felt I had to explain more. 

Of course NO ONE can fight or stop the OCD once they have decided to come and kill the rats. I don't think anyone here would be that naive as to believe they can. My whole point was not to legally have to call them if the rats test positive after you voluntarily chose to test the rats. I can't possibly be clearer than that.


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## Asiposea

Jokerfest- agreed.



moonkissed said:


> Not to even mention the years and years of work, effort and dedication that went into those lines.


I think this is the poignant loss to the fancy. For a breeder, I imagine, of course, you always look for improvement in your lines, carefully choosing offspring, keeping records, matching pairs, working with other breeders on trades- all the while looking towards a never-ending goal. This person lost the legacy of their work. I wonder if, because of by presumably keeping good records and trading with other breeders, they could possibly 'rebuild' their lines?


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## moonkissed

> So let's not run around like headless chickens, please.


I do not see anyone doing that?

I feel like you are getting very upset over this. I'm not sure why. We all have our own choices to make. But people are just trying to share information about what is going on and let people be informed. 

If it was everywhere then I think it would have come up before  It is definitely not something that is just everywhere and no one has noticed lol I don't think the CDC would be involved if that is true. 
The UK also went through an outbreak Ithink in 2012... its definitely a rare thing to pop up in pet rats.

It surely is not black or white, all or nothing. I don't understand that attitude. Is it something we should take notice of? Yes. Should we take it seriously? Yes. Should be have mass panic? No. People are able to take precautions be smart and not go insane with panic. Atleast I am lol
I do suggest not buying rats until the CDC investigation is over with so we can see how wide spread it is. Let them do their thing. I do suggest all breeders should test their rats. If you are a pet owner and not in those states you likely have nothing to worry about. That doesn't mean they shouldn't take notice. Just be aware. 

A woman did get sick. I believe she said she spent a week(I think, talked to too many people I could be mistaken on the time lol) in the hospital & then lost all of her rats as well as some other pets I won't mention. It is kindof a big deal to her. She didnt have a choice in it either. She begged and pleaded for help to get the CDC not to do this. They did it anyways. 

I do have good news though. It seems like the CDC is working with the testing company Idexx to see if their tests are compatible & showing the same results. If so they may allow the tests we have done to count and won't require euthanizing rats to test!! *fingers crossed* I know several other breeders involved who sent away their tests and this could save their rats. 



> Not to mention all those sweet rats killed because their breeders got unnecessarily scared and irrational.


I don't understand what you mean by this? No one is going to go around killing uninfected rats. No one is panicking and killing rats or anything. Do you believe breeders are fine selling infected rats? 

I'm not sure what to say about that.... Idk as a breeder I pride myself on my ethics. I couldn't ethically do that.


----------



## moonkissed

Asiposea said:


> Jokerfest- agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is the poignant loss to the fancy. For a breeder, I imagine, of course, you always look for improvement in your lines, carefully choosing offspring, keeping records, matching pairs, working with other breeders on trades- all the while looking towards a never-ending goal. This person lost the legacy of their work. I wonder if, because of by presumably keeping good records and trading with other breeders, they could possibly 'rebuild' their lines?



Right? That is tragic. It takes so much time and effort and it is all possibly gone. I can't imagine that. This is my passion. I am pretty much 24/7 rats lol The amount of effort, time, study, and my very heart and soul that goes into it....

Hopefully she can find other breeders she worked with and have a chance at getting them back.

I'm not sure if she will after this though. It has to be so traumatic for her. 

I admit I am feeling very emotional after seeing the pics of the CDC in her home and the dead rats. I went and kissed my babies & seriously cried. 

And the breeders who had the CDC euthanize their rats were well known breeders in the community. Maybe we all would feel different if it was some person none of us knew. But you can't help but feel a bit touched, like it is close to home.


----------



## Jokerfest

Heatherl said:


> With all due respect you probably haven't read Moonkissed's comments up to that last one nor noticed I was writing my last post while Moonkissed posted her last comment.


I had read all of her posts, however I didn't notice you posted at nearly the same time. I'm sorry I didn't notice. I really haven't seen anyone being irrational lol.


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## Ratologist

Sometimes information-sharing can look like panicking. I don't see anyone panicking in this thread, but I can see how my own earlier post might have been viewed that way. Here's what I said:



> I live in MN and was wondering what my level of concern should be. We got our rats in October. So, I assume we'd know by now if someone in our household was going to get sick. I read this today, "To date, state health officials in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Wisconsin have been notified that their residents may have infected rats." https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/han00400.asp


Now, I wasn't panicking, but I do like a lot of information. And one of the ways I process information is to talk with others about it. So, I posted here, and I've been following the conversation. 

By way of update, I contacted the "breeder" we got our rats from (breeder is in quotes because I don't believe it was the best breeding situation, and I wouldn't recommend her...but anyway...), and she said:



> No worries here, all the infected rats are traced at coming from the same breeder who also housed wild rats who spread the virus. I typically dont take in outside animals. I am being vigilant about the situation but luckly the risk doesnt seem to high right now.


Can anyone verify this? And how are breeders getting their information? Are you talking directly with the CDC?


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## moonkissed

There is ALOT of misinformation being shared. People just make stuff up and share it as if it were fact. 
And on top of it alot of people have been attacking the breeders involved, some of which just received sick rats. 

At this very moment in time, no one has released the source of where it came from or how. It would make sense that it came from wild rats but was it a situation of someone taking in wild rats or having them in their home or them in turn getting it from someone else? IDK... 

This is hopefully a good giant warning sign that people need to leave wild animals alone. The amount of posts I see where people catch wild rats is absurd. 




> Can anyone verify this? And how are breeders getting their information? Are you talking directly with the CDC?



In a few breeder groups we are all sharing information and discussing it. It has actually been, for the most part, really amazing how everyone has come together.
A few of the breeders directly involved have shared all of the info as they have gotten it, what the CDC has told them, etc...
A few other breeders have directly reached out to the CDC & Idexx and are sharing info from them. The CDC has a hotline you can call about the virus. 
Some breeders contacted the CDC to get their animals tested as well.


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## -moose

I'm not a breeder but I recently purchased some rats from someone about a week ago. They said that they didn't purchase any infected rats but I wanted some peace of mind about me and my rat's safety. Would it be better to get myself tested or to get my rats tested?


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## Jokerfest

-moose said:


> I'm not a breeder but I recently purchased some rats from someone about a week ago. They said that they didn't purchase any infected rats but I wanted some peace of mind about me and my rat's safety. Would it be better to get myself tested or to get my rats tested?


I would get yourself tested first and then you can decide what to do about your rats. That way you're not forced into putting them to sleep or anything.


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## Jaguar

Jokerfest said:


> I would get yourself tested first and then you can decide what to do about your rats. That way you're not forced into putting them to sleep or anything.


If you tested positive, your rats would likely be seized and destroyed. If you do decide to test, be ready for that possible outcome.


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## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> At this very moment in time, no one has released the source of where it came from or how. It would make sense that it came from wild rats but was it a situation of someone taking in wild rats or having them in their home or them in turn getting it from someone else? IDK...


Yosemite had an outbreak of hantavirus years ago after people visiting/camping were in contact with deermice by such activities as sleeping on the ground. I suppose with our situation it could have even stemmed from somebody innocently tracking in the virus on their shoes?



moonkissed said:


> In a few breeder groups we are all sharing information and discussing it. It has actually been, for the most part, really amazing how everyone has come together.
> A few of the breeders directly involved have shared all of the info as they have gotten it, what the CDC has told them, etc...
> A few other breeders have directly reached out to the CDC & Idexx and are sharing info from them. The CDC has a hotline you can call about the virus.
> Some breeders contacted the CDC to get their animals tested as well.


This sounds very encouraging. I think it's a testament to the professionalism and dedication to the bigger picture of the rodent fancy for these breeders to work freely with the CDC. Hopefully this collaboration will speed up the investigation. Thanks for sharing this info with us too!


----------



## moonkissed

Asiposea said:


> Yosemite had an outbreak of hantavirus years ago after people visiting/camping were in contact with deermice by such activities as sleeping on the ground. I suppose with our situation it could have even stemmed from somebody innocently tracking in the virus on their shoes?
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds very encouraging. I think it's a testament to the professionalism and dedication to the bigger picture of the rodent fancy for these breeders to work freely with the CDC. Hopefully this collaboration will speed up the investigation. Thanks for sharing this info with us too!


I believe that the outbreak there was a different type of hantavirus. There are different kinds and that one is pretty common in that area. I haven't read that much about it.


I agree wholeheartedly. As painful as it could potentially be so many breeders are really showing how important the health of our rats/people are. I think that is a beautiful thing.

I just mailed out my tests this afternoon. 

I've only seen on negative test result so far being posted. But people should start getting their results back in so hopefully we will know more.

There is a rumor (worry?) that it could possibly be from an imported shipment and that would mean that almost every breeder who works with a handful of varieties has it because almost everyone got them from that source. Including myself.... so that is not a fun thought. *fingers crossed*


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## Jokerfest

Jaguar said:


> If you tested positive, your rats would likely be seized and destroyed. If you do decide to test, be ready for that possible outcome.


I wish I could edit that post I wasn't really thinking about how you'd have to tell doctors you have pet rats to get tested for it.  Jaguar is totally right here be prepared for the possible outcome.


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## -moose

That is true... ): But suppose my rats were positive and I decided to not test them or myself in case they would have to be put down, would the Seoul virus eventually "leave the rat"?


----------



## Jokerfest

-moose said:


> That is true... ): But suppose my rats were positive and I decided to not test them or myself in case they would have to be put down, would the Seoul virus eventually "leave the rat"?


Thats a really interesting question I'd love to know the answer to aswell, it eventually 'leaves' people so I wonder if it does 'leave' the rat.


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## moonkissed

In my other comment I said there was a rumor about where the source came from, I just wanna say it was definitely just a rumor and no one at all knows where the source of this came from.

Some people who got rats from the infected have themselves tested negative which is good. Rat test results are slowly coming back. One of the breeders who had her rats euthanized by the CDC... only 2 of her rats ended up testing positive  





-moose said:


> That is true... ): But suppose my rats were positive and I decided to not test them or myself in case they would have to be put down, would the Seoul virus eventually "leave the rat"?


nope. They have it for life.

Kindof technically u do too. Like you would always carry antibodies and never be able to ever get it again like chicken pox.

There is some debate right now over how it works in rats. Sadly they have studied it in people more than in rats so there is not perfectly clear info.
Some of the studies used only a handful of rats even so it just doesn't make things very clear.

Some believe that it is continually shed by the rats meaning they will always be able to infect others during those times. 
Others believe they only do so in the beginning so some were saying just the first 40 days they would be contagious. 

We just do not know which makes it kindof worse. People are trying to find more answers.




Every single breeder I have talked to has agreed that if our rats were infected we would euthanize. Our biggest issue right now is being able to do it ourselves with love and care & only losing rats that test positive vs them just forcing us to lose all of our rats. 

Also some people are suggesting that if you are not showing any symptoms yourself to get your rats tested instead of yourself. Since you have the antibodies forever, if you got it 10 years ago you will still test positive. 
At this time we are hoping that individual blood tests on our rats will be accepted as proof. 
But yes there is alot of fear about the CDC right now. They were kindof being a bit bully like towards people. 
We do have rights. They can not come into your home without a warrant but they have been threatening towards people who try to fight. 

Some people are afraid that it is a push to regulate rat breeders or even affect reptiles via their food sources. I am not a tin foil hat type of person but they are showing that they would rather have everyone just euthanize all of the rats that could in anyway be connected without even bothering to test just so it is all wiped out. 

I wanna believe the CDC is just being thorough & wanna be safe but it is all still worrisome.


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## Heatherl

Only get your rats tested if you are ok with them being killed. Don't believe for a second that they will come and kill only 1 infected rat. They will come and kill all of them. As a rat parent, I won't take the risk- I love my rats. Again it has been blown out of proportion, even if your rats are infected nothing will happen to you- you are not even going to get any symptoms or whatnot.


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## Heatherl

Poor breeder who had only two infected rats and ALL of them were killed. How many were killed? Probably a couple dozen or so Hopefully it will serve as a warning to everyone else.


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## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> only 2 of her rats ended up testing positive


This is really surprising to me. I don't know if she kept these two in a separate cage or in a colony, but with the ease the CDC describes the virus transferring to people, I would think that it would just as easily spread from rat to rat and that most or all of her colony would have tested positive.


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## moonkissed

> even if your rats are infected nothing will happen to you- you are not even going to get any symptoms or whatnot.


Well not for everyone. People have gotten sick. The one woman's son was sick & out of school for a week. Luckily he was not more serious and didn't need to go to the hospital. The woman *did* have to go to the hospital though. She got hit hard by it. People have gotten sick. Others said they felt a bit tired and had head/muscle aches. Out of 8 people that is still kindof icky 

No one is dropping dead but still that is not nothing.

And yes if someone had a compromised immune system it could be worse. I also do worry about people who do not have insurance or don't go to the doctor for whatever reason. Or even if u just got the flu and had to miss work that would be hard on some people. 

I still do not understand the need to see things in two extremes. It does not have to be all or nothing. We can be like yeah it is not that serious. People do not need to panic. By far most of us will not even be touched by this or concerned. But it is good to also take it seriously. To not completely dismiss it.

We can all agree that it is not very dangerous. There is no need to freak out. If you do have a compromised immune system I would suggest discussing it with your doctor but if not I wouldn't be very concerned. 

You have made your opinion known that you will not test. That is your choice. No one is forcing you to do it. I don't see the reason to keep repeating it?
Everyone do what you feel is right. That is all any of us can do. 

But one should remember that the ONLY people who have lost rats so far are ones who themselves tested positive because someone was in the hospital. None of them had any choice in the matter. The CDC has not ran around seizing other rats so far. 

At this moment in time they are letting us test and even testing for some people without taking all of their rats. They have even let some breeders choose which ones to test. I know one breeder who has many rats pregnant/nursing right now because he was breeding extra for a breeder event and so he only took his males/older females to be tested, and they let him. 

Again we shouldn't take it to one extreme or the other. I feel that there is a thin line where it can feel like blame towards those breeders who are already hurting. We do not need to induce panic around that either. We should stick with facts the best we can. 

None of us are going to know the next step until more testing has been done or the CDC makes the next step. So deep breathes all around 




> This is really surprising to me. I don't know if she kept these two in a separate cage or in a colony, but with the ease the CDC describes the virus transferring to people, I would think that it would just as easily spread from rat to rat and that most or all of her colony would have tested positive.


That is kindof why we are thinking it is only an issue when it sheds so we do not have to think all of our rats are infected. 

12 were tested (so far), 2 were positive. 1 male & 1 female. 
Another breeder had all that were tested show positive (idk how many)
And the other breeder had less than that breeder show positive but again idk how many.

And people who did get rats connected to this are themselves testing negative. So it doesn't add up.

Still waiting on other tests. so it will give us a better idea. That is really going to be the most helpful is when we get all of the tests back we can see if it has spread & how hopefully. Then maybe we can understand it and give us a better idea on how to proceed. 
With the CDC working with Idexx as well, if many of us can show that we are not infected it may help. It may also help if people test and have the majority of their rats test negative it may change their mind.

I know for a fact one person had a rat from the infected ratteries. He had been in quarantine and the CDC only took him and not all of her rats. 


Ratguide which is an amazing site is working with the CDC to put out an informational sheet so maybe they will tell us something too.

Waiting sucks though.


----------



## Ratloved

Thank you so much Moonkissed for keeping us informed. I hope for the best for all the people and the rats being tested.


----------



## Heatherl

I wonder if instead of rats it were dogs worth thousands of dollars each...Would the breeders voluntarily get tested? I don't think so.. If a breeder believes she might have infected rats because they come from a place that tested positive, she could just close the rattery and not breed for two years. Problem solved. Let the rats have a great life and die naturally of old age. Not breeding for two years won't kill anyone😋


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## Heatherl

Two RELATED (immunity is genetic) persons out of millions working in places that are known to be infected by rats and 10's of thousands who work directly with rats or have pet rats most of them pet store rats from rat infected commercial warehouses. I take that odd against any other odds of illness or death anyone of us face each day.


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## Heatherl

Now I wonder, what about the adopters? If some rats from a certain breeder test positive than surely the CDC will ask the breeder for the list of all the adopters. It makes sense, right? Otherwise why even bother to go to the breeders in the first place if it is to leave the adopted out of it. So now the CDC will also go visit all the adopters and put down all of their rats if any of their rats test positive. I wonder if in many cases they will even bother to test the rats if they were adopted during the epidemic period established by their previous research at the breeder facility.


----------



## TeddyRoo

I don't think the CDC is going to seek out each rat adopter gestapo style until all the rats are accounted for...I mean they're scientists right? Not mafia foot soldiers. Or am I being naive? I sure hope not


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## moonkissed

Heatherl said:


> I wonder if instead of rats it were dogs worth thousands of dollars each...Would the breeders voluntarily get tested? I don't think so.. If a breeder believes she might have infected rats because they come from a place that tested positive, she could just close the rattery and not breed for two years. Problem solved. Let the rats have a great life and die naturally of old age. Not breeding for two years won't kill anyone


Dog breeders test their dogs for all sorts of health issues. If I paid thousands of dollars for a puppy that got me sick I would be royally angry.... and in our lovely sue happy world I'd sue them to cover all of my health costs, missed work, pain and suffering.

Rats can live longer than 2 years...

That would mean losing all of their lines. Lines that could have gone on for generations that they have poured so much energy and time into. That would be almost as devastating. And some breeders have invested thousands of dollars into their rats. Not to even mention ones who have done shipments and imports where it was literally thousand dollars. If something did hit hard we could lose entire varieties  

I don't want to go into details but breeders euthanize rats all the time. For countless reasons. Maybe not all pet owners know that, but it comes with breeding. Breeders are used to life and death. 

If one rat is positive and 10 are negative, we are going to euthanize the positive rat so it can't potentially infect the others. 

That is what we are praying for right now. That we can separate the negative & positive instead of losing everything.



> Now I wonder, what about the adopters? If some rats from a certain breeder test positive than surely the CDC will ask the breeder for the list of all the adopters. It makes sense, right? Otherwise why even bother to go to the breeders in the first place if it is to leave the adopted out of it. So now the CDC will also go visit all the adopters and put down all of their rats if any of their rats test positive. I wonder if in many cases they will even bother to test the rats if they were adopted during the epidemic period established by their previous research at the breeder facility.


So far the breeders have been given the info of adopters who bought rats recently or within their timeframe.

As far as I know in this moment, the CDC has not contacted them yet. One breeder I know who received possibly infected rats is having hers tested (again the CDC has not gone in and killed all of her rats either) and she has given her list of people she sold to and has said that they told her they might contact them but have not yet.

They are testing these breeders who got rats. 

I wanna again say the ONLY people who have had their rats euthanized were people who tested positive. So far everyone else is being allowed to test their rats. We do not know what the CDC will do after that. We are all just still waiting for results.

It is all one step at a time. Waiting to know sucks and is scary. But we just don't know what is going to happen yet.




> Thank you so much Moonkissed for keeping us informed. I hope for the best for all the people and the rats being tested.


Thank you & your welcome  Some breeders are trying to set up a page for support to all the rats that have so far been lost and to the breeders who have lost them. As soon as they do I'll share it. 
I think the best thing we can do right now is stand together as a rat community!


----------



## Jokerfest

Heatherl said:


> I wonder if instead of rats it were dogs worth thousands of dollars each...Would the breeders voluntarily get tested? I don't think so.. If a breeder believes she might have infected rats because they come from a place that tested positive, she could just close the rattery and not breed for two years. Problem solved. Let the rats have a great life and die naturally of old age. Not breeding for two years won't kill anyone


I know a couple responsible dog breeders, if the dog breeders are responsible they test their dogs for many things. They can very easily be sued if they sell a sick dog for thousands of dollars. The buyers obviously care about the pet's genetics and such enough to pay for such a expensive dog they wouldn't just say "Oh well it's sick thats a couple grand down the drain." lol.
Backyard breeders however? I doubt they'd bother however theres been many cases of people getting sued for selling sick dogs and I'd guess those are the bybs being sued most of the time. Responsible breeders care enough to test their animals no matter the 'value' of the animal or the species..


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## Asiposea

Heatherl said:


> I wonder if instead of rats it were dogs worth thousands of dollars each...Would the breeders voluntarily get tested? I don't think so.. 


Ethical, responsible breeders are just that...they feel morally obligated to choose what's right for the breed. With dogs, this does include testing for a variety of things. A breeder who believes they have infected rats is not solving the problem by ignoring the problem. I'm thankful for and applaud the group that's going through this challenge and working to proactively solve this, even if it unfortunately means euthanizing infected rats.


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## moonkissed

Well a pet only owner had the CDC come and test her rats in her home. Blood test only. She was tested yesterday and her rats today.

She got her rats directly from one of the breeders who tested positive. That is why they came and tested her rats.

On the plus yay they came and just gave a blood test.

But she said that they could possibly not wait for the test results and come take her rats next week anyways 

I am not sure why or why they would bother testing if they were going to do that. 

But still their testing is going quite slow getting to people even.


----------



## Nieve5552

Heatherl said:


> Only get your rats tested if you are ok with them being killed. Don't believe for a second that they will come and kill only 1 infected rat. They will come and kill all of them. As a rat parent, I won't take the risk- I love my rats. Again it has been blown out of proportion, even if your rats are infected nothing will happen to you- you are not even going to get any symptoms or whatnot.


Speaking as an outsider (not living in the US so no direct threat to me by this virus and no emotional bias)
Doesnt sound like anyone here is 'OK' with having their rats killed? What a really weird thing to say. 
And 'youre not going to get any symptoms'? How did the CDC find out that this virus was infecting people? The first article posted says PEOPLE got sick, which led to the CDC finding out that the source of the sickness was their rats. So OBVIOUSLY people are getting infected with the virus and showing symptoms, because you cant get visibly sick enough to have to go to the hospital, unless you have SYMPTOMS. 

No one who wants to get their rats tested is 'OK' with their rats getting put down. Its all about doing the 'right thing' so that the virus outbreak can be contained. If an individual is a carrier of a virus, and does not get treated/eliminated, the virus spreads, infecting other individuals. That is how an outbreak occurs. If your rats are carriers but you only think of yourself and not see the bigger picture by not getting them tested, you may spread the virus to others in the community. Is it OK to be the reason that tens/hundreds of fellow rat owners to have to go through with losing their rats, as long as you get to keep your rats? To me that is pretty **** selfish. As others have pointed out, the testing is about ethics, not about whether youre ok with your rats being killed.
You talk about people running around like headless chickens and panicking, but all I see is responsible people doing responsible things and sharing helpful information. Sorry to say this but it looks like you're the one who's comments are more likely to be scaremongering while sharing no helpful info. As already mentioned, you do seem to be very strangely upset about the sharing of information between others on this topic...

To others, I hope this blows over quickly and hope all your rats will be safe  Sounds like a very difficult time


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## thepumpkinrat

I hope this virus outbreak dies out soon. It's so unfortunate that rats have to lose their lives but the owners and breeders are incredibly strong to allow that in order to protect other humans and rats. I'm so glad to see so many people sharing the information about the virus via rat groups, pages and forums trying to inform other rat parents. What an awesome community 8)


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## Asiposea

Any updates on how things are going with the investigation or the breeders going through this?


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## moonkissed

Asiposea said:


> Any updates on how things are going with the investigation or the breeders going through this?



Things are not great. Apparently most individual states are running things and so they are all handling it differently.

Colorado seems to have cleared most breeders. 

Some other states they are kindof being a bit of dicks. People were fighting it because they didn't want their rats killed who tested negative and so the CDC was being a bit more threatening with if you didn't cooperate they were going to just kill all the rats and/or not allow live testing. 

There have been a ton of conference calls with the CDC and it is really sad how little info they know about the virus in rats. I think that is part of the problem. There is some info suggesting this is widespread among wild rats but they don't seem to care. 
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/10/e109/299360/Domestically-Acquired-Seoul-Virus-Causing
People were getting all the info typed up from the conference calls. 

Testing had gotten alittle bit backed up, but people are still getting test results in. 

Things are bad for alot of the breeders. Majorly bad  

Short version of what is happening to some breeders:
You have a rat test positive but others test negative. You have two choices. 1. All of your rats are euthanized. 2. You have to work through your vet to continue to test. Which for just about everyone this is impossible to afford. I heard one person it was going to cost them over $1000 every 6 weeks.... Even if it was cheaper it is still way too expensive for most breeders. This is a hobby where we do not make a profit from. We are lucky if we get enough to cover our expenses. 
So there is some discussion that they are trying to just wipe it out by forcing breeders into not being able to afford it and euthanizing everyone anyways 

Sooo many breeders have quit, or lost all their rats right now it is insane. 


But things are still ongoing. They are still testing and haven't told alot of breeders what is going to happen yet. Just a waiting game. 

It looks like the CDC has added more states though:


Alabama
Arkansas
Colorado
Illinois
Indiana
Louisiana
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Iowa
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
Wisconsin
https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/outbreaks/seoul-virus/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/outbreaks/seoul-virus/map.html



Some good news: Idexx, the testing company says they will not release any personal information to the CDC. Though since your vet receives the info would they? IDK.... I do know they are backed up and i am still waiting for my test results to come back. 



Rat Guide posted this info: http://ratguide.com/reference/SeoulVirus.pdf
It doesnt say much right now.



It is just a very stressful time right now  Waiting sucks


----------



## Kelsbels

Wow, that sounds very stressful  I'm so sorry to hear everyone is still going through this.


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## Asiposea

That's terrible and a much worse update than what I was expecting!

So am I understanding it right about the testing...if a breeder had even just one rat tested positive, in order to keep their remaining rats that didn't initially test positive, they have to test every six weeks for an extended period of time? Every single rat? Wonder if they could look into a 'go fund me' to be even able to save at least one of their lines? This is so sad. Do you know how many breeders are involved in total? And is it confirmed that this is from a single source that spread via trading with ratteries or are some breeders testing and finding they somehow have infected rats as well even if they weren't involved in the trades?


----------



## moonkissed

I do not know how many breeders are involved. Not everyone has discussed it either. But a good amount through the 14 states listed. 

Every state has been handling things differently. And so breeders are all being told different things.

The above has happened to a couple breeders, that I know of. 
Some have tested negative and were told it would be fine if they did at the time but are now requiring more testing. 

No one knows the exact source right now but I do believe the majority are all linked through rat sales. It may be Breeder A sold rats to Breeders and then it goes through everyone they sold to and then everyone they sold to. They have said they were only looking at the ratteries involved through those who tested positive but I am not sure if that is still the case. They were doing testing in some of those states and people may have come forward as well on their own.

Alot of breeders lost rats from anesthesia, they were put under to be tested and never woke up 

I think most people are still waiting to get test results back. 

I know a few breeders were looking to set up a page for the breeders and their lost rats and maybe once they do a gofundme can help them raise funds. Ill ask.


----------



## Rattielover965

If the CDC wanted to test your rats could you refuse to have them tested without a warrant?


----------



## moonkissed

Rattielover965 said:


> If the CDC wanted to test your rats could you refuse to have them tested without a warrant?


Yes.

And people have. But it seems a double edge sword. If you don't cooperate it seems they will end up forcing you in the end and they won't be nice about it and then they are just leaning harder on other breeders because of it


----------



## Supergirl_s

So that link you shared about the testing. You send for the kit and send it back to them and they test it for you?


----------



## moonkissed

Supergirl_s said:


> So that link you shared about the testing. You send for the kit and send it back to them and they test it for you?


Yes you can get free testing cards here: http://www.idexxbioresearch.com/opti-spot-collection-card-request
You get them really fast.

It requires alittle blood from each rat you want to test. The rats you are testing should be over 2 months old. I'd suggest one per cage depending on how long you have had them. 
You get a form to fill out and you need to include your vets information. They will send the results to your vet who will then give it to you.

It seems by far, most vets will do this no issue. 

There is alot of different tests you can test for. If you just want to check for the hantavirus, you just write it out Hantaan Virus on the line.


----------



## Supergirl_s

Thank you. How long has it been taking to get the results back?


----------



## moonkissed

They are alittle backed up with so many testing but it seems about 1-2 weeks


----------



## Yummy

Ratloved said:


> Thank you so much Moonkissed for keeping us informed. I hope for the best for all the people and the rats being tested.


I just wanted to echo this. I have not had any reason to comment, but I have been following this thread and topic.


----------



## Asteria

Just read some of the accounts from some of the ratteries that were forced to euthanize. My heart shattered, I can't imagine how they're coping after losing their passion and companions both in one. Some of those ratteries had been breeding for up to a decade and had put so much work in. 
I'm cuddling my ratties extra close tonight.


----------



## moonkissed

Yummy said:


> I just wanted to echo this. I have not had any reason to comment, but I have been following this thread and topic.



Thank you! I wish I had more info right now. 
Hopefully soon. I have heard some ratteries have been given new info that they can not share yet. So I am waiting to hear that news. 



> Just read some of the accounts from some of the ratteries that were forced to euthanize. My heart shattered, I can't imagine how they're coping after losing their passion and companions both in one. Some of those ratteries had been breeding for up to a decade and had put so much work in.
> I'm cuddling my ratties extra close tonight.


It is so upsetting & heartbreaking  
I really can not even imagine what they are going through and I hope I never do. 

One posted just saying how she missed them all and it made me think how empty I would feel. I'd probably be so caught in my routine that I'd go in to feed them and then remember they were all gone.  

It is really not fair.


----------



## moonkissed

Well I just listened on to the recent conference call with the CDC. Not much new info.

They added a new state, I can't remember which one is new but it is up to 15 now. 
This is really why I have been telling people just because you were not in one of the states it is best to just have patience and wait. This is still ongoing and until they are finished with the investigation we just do not know how far it has spread.


There have been 3 states with people infected: Wisconsin, Illinois & Minnesota.
The states with possible rats infected so far:
Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, North Dakota, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Wisconsin.

I also hear someone in Colorado tested positive (a human) though it has not yet been added to the CDC map. The breeder themselves has posted about it. 
I know people in Tennessee who have had their rats tested positive 

It has also shown up in Canada. They said Canada is sharing info but that they are not part of the US so idk they seem to say that they dont have control over that or have the latest info or what.

They said that currently they are looking at breeders with infected rats and rats that were sold to them or from them to trace it.

They also said that they do not know the source still and they have no "rat zero". And made a comment about how it is not that these ratteries did something or had bad husbandry which I thought was lovely to comment on.

The CDC did say they recommend depopulation  Which sucks badly.
There was some discussion about if breeders could possibly save lines by breeding an infected rat and pulling off the babies before they are weaned because they would still have the antibodies from their mom and give them to a uninfected mom. So we don't lose lines, which will work but idk the CDC didn't seem to like the idea. 

They do seem to be allowing the Idexx testing though so yay and they even had Idexx in on the call as well.

They also made sure we know that it is being run pretty much state by state through the health department. 


I am hoping they will update their site with new info soon.


----------



## Ratologist

moonkissed said:


> There have been 3 states with people infected: Wisconsin, Illinois & Minnesota.


Just wondering if this is a mistake or if you received information we do not have. The CDC website says that people have been found to be infected in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana. Minnesota is *not* listed. This is of particular interest to me, since I live in MN. 

https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/outbreaks/seoul-virus/index.html


----------



## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> They also said that they do not know the source still and they have no "rat zero". And made a comment about how it is not that these ratteries did something or had bad husbandry which I thought was lovely to comment on.
> 
> The CDC did say they recommend depopulation  Which sucks badly.
> There was some discussion about if breeders could possibly save lines by breeding an infected rat and pulling off the babies before they are weaned because they would still have the antibodies from their mom and give them to a uninfected mom. So we don't lose lines, which will work but idk the CDC didn't seem to like the idea.


Moonkissed, thanks for the update. Nice to hear them praise the breeders for something.

On 'depopulation'- was that the information the breeders were asked not to share a few days ago?


----------



## moonkissed

Ratologist said:


> Just wondering if this is a mistake or if you received information we do not have. The CDC website says that people have been found to be infected in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana. Minnesota is *not* listed. This is of particular interest to me, since I live in MN.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/outbreaks/seoul-virus/index.html



Nope Minnesota is correct. 

It shows on the site for me.

http://imgur.com/vJ2oYGh
http://imgur.com/a/Y1QI5

(The red dots/arrow were added by me)

I do see on the main page at the top it just says Indiana instead of Minnesota. I think that may have been earlier and they just have not updated it.
During the call they definitely said Minnesota. 
But it is weird.




> Moonkissed, thanks for the update. Nice to hear them praise the breeders for something.
> 
> On 'depopulation'- was that the information the breeders were asked not to share a few days ago?


I agree. In some rat groups people have been bad mouthing the breeders involved and it is so horrid to see that when they are already going through so much.

No I am still not sure what they were asked not to share. I was assuming it was that the breeder tested positive in CO. But now that the breeder has publicly posted about it, I guessed it was ok now. But its weird that their site does not reflect that and they did not mention CO on the call at all. 

Tennessee supposedly has people testing positive as well. So I am not sure if they are waiting to say that or what.


I also know that they are wanting to test more people to see how many people may have antibodies. Just in the general population.
In the UK they said like 30% of people tested had antibodies but only like 2-3% of professionals that dealt with them like vets or exterminators or such. But lots of people may have jobs where they could be exposed to it. Cleaning and such.

I wish they knew more about the virus and then it would be less concern perhaps.


----------



## moonkissed

Updated states:

Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 7: CO, IL, MN, SC, TN, UT, WI
States with ratteries currently under investigation: 15: AL, CO, IL, IN, IA, LA, MI, MN, MO, ND, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


PA is right next to me  PA actually had rats testing positive. They are slow to update their info, I'm not sure why.


----------



## Asteria

A few ratteries in Canada and the UK have closed doors as some owners have tested positive for antibodies or have a shared rats with the infected breeders. I know that one of the ratteries that tested positive went to a large rodent show which could have greatly contributed to the spread. 

I believe this is far more widespread than it seems, the focus is so heavy on ratteries but I'm more concerned about wild rats becoming infected from infected disposed bedding in bins or landfill as the virus can survive from quite some time in the environment.


----------



## Asiposea

The CDC says 13 people have been infected as of February 15. This article from another source gives the breakdown for 12.



> Twelve people have been infected thus far: seven from Illinois, three from Wisconsin, one from Indiana [1], and one from Utah [2]. The remaining 12 states (CO, ND, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA, TN, AL, IN, MI, and SC) have received rats from rat-breeding facilities that are believed to be the source of the infections, and thus have the potential for cases to develop [3]. - See more at: http://www.healthmap.org/site/disea...d-affect-15-states-21517#sthash.HRhZ7Hrw.dpuf


----------



## Kelsbels

Oh no  if the virus doesn't harm rats, you'd think the CDC would be working on something that would prevent it being passed to humans? It's so sad


----------



## moonkissed

> I believe this is far more widespread than it seems, the focus is so heavy on ratteries but I'm more concerned about wild rats becoming infected from infected disposed bedding in bins or landfill as the virus can survive from quite some time in the environment.


It is already believed to be heavily spread among wild rats. 

I know of atleast one person who had positive rats euthanized them and put them in the trash so....




> The CDC says 13 people have been infected as of February 15. This article from another source gives the breakdown for 12.


IDK what their process is for updating their info. I'm going to be honest it does not give me alot of faith if there was a major health issue out there lol
Most of the info we are hearing from breeders themselves far before the CDC updates their site.

Someone in Colorado tested positive. 




> Oh no  if the virus doesn't harm rats, you'd think the CDC would be working on something that would prevent it being passed to humans? It's so sad


They have a vaccine in Asia. But I guess it may not work against our strains. It hasn't been approved for the US or Europe. Still it would probably take years before anything was available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hantavirus_vaccine



Everyday I am hearing more people lose all their rats and it is just heartbreaking. So many ratteries are probably closing after this.


----------



## Kelsbels

It's devastating. Whenever I see someone asking where it's safe to buy rats regarding this outbreak, all I can _think_ is, "please please hold off." 

I just read on fb that the CDC made a surprise visit to this person's place because their breeder's one rat tested positive. Now they're forcing them to take their rats to the vet to get tested. I mean it makes sense, but I think it would be pretty frightening that they'd make a sudden visit.


----------



## Asteria

There's been some recent speculation over the original source of the outbreak. Names have been removed as there is no solid evidence that I can find to back it up.


----------



## moonkissed

Kelsbels said:


> It's devastating. Whenever I see someone asking where it's safe to buy rats regarding this outbreak, all I can _think_ is, "please please hold off."
> 
> I just read on fb that the CDC made a surprise visit to this person's place because their breeder's one rat tested positive. Now they're forcing them to take their rats to the vet to get tested. I mean it makes sense, but I think it would be pretty frightening that they'd make a sudden visit.


right? Some people are not taking this seriously at all and it is scary. Because you are risking losing your rats.

People have started trying to fight the CDC and it is getting ugly.

I just read about how after a breeders rats were all euthanized the CDC showed up at her house, took her kid out of school, made her husband come home from work to be tested right then. 
And people keep having the CDC, health department and police show up at their house without any prior contact. 

And worse it is causing people to freak out and be all anti-goverment and cull all their rats and such  

It is hard to understand what they are all going through.



> There's been some recent speculation over the original source of the outbreak. Names have been removed as there is no solid evidence that I can find to back it up.


It is all just rumors and it really sucks that someone would so openly spread rumors like that  

They do not know the source yet. 

I'm fairly sure I know who they are talking about and that is called coincidence. Oh someone got sick (which is even more disrespectful because she seriously has major health issues that is not related to this virus) and closed their rattery so it must have been them. 

Pointing fingers helps no one


----------



## Asiposea

Copied from the CDC website, PA has been added to the list of confirmed positive results. Georgia is now also under investigation.




> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 13
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 8: CO, IL, MN, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> States with ratteries currently under investigation: 16: AL, CO, GA, IL, IN, IA, LA, MI, MN, MO, ND, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


----------



## Asiposea

Just a thought...might this whole thing be important enough to ask the mods to see if this can be an announcement to advise people to be cautious about adopting rats right now? I know lurkers don't always read latest posts but simply use google to find what they need here (that's what I did for 10 years).


----------



## Jokerfest

This is starting to get really scary. Honestly I'd be more willing to think one of the big warehouse mills was the source because I'm sure wild rats get in and out of there all the time. I wonder why they're not testing large rat mills yet...


----------



## moonkissed

Good news! The CDC is now accepting idexx testing so yay. That is huge big news. (idk if I already said this lol) But it is really important for breeders.




Asiposea said:


> Just a thought...might this whole thing be important enough to ask the mods to see if this can be an announcement to advise people to be cautious about adopting rats right now? I know lurkers don't always read latest posts but simply use google to find what they need here (that's what I did for 10 years).


Maybe they can sticky this thread?

People do need to be careful about buying rats. I have now seen pet people being involved from buying rats from infected people. And if you are linked it is going to be a giant mess to deal with on the best circumstance.

It is so past worried about being sick or even infecting your rats. You are going to have to deal with the government in your life possibly the police and your health department and risk losing some or all of your rats  

At the very least if you bring them in keep them in quarantine until this is over. 

it is just that the investigation is still ongoing, like every few days a new state is added. 




> This is starting to get really scary. Honestly I'd be more willing to think one of the big warehouse mills was the source because I'm sure wild rats get in and out of there all the time. I wonder why they're not testing large rat mills yet...


That is part of the problem. Mills are not probably even testing. They are only right now looking at breeders connected but this is obviously getting huge.

And while most responsible breeders are temporarily closed and/or testing and trying to stay updated on the info... feeder breeders do this for profit and most are still selling. That includes even many dual purpose breeders. 
And ofcourse BYBs and oops litters galore. 

If it is not everywhere it will be. So why are they still forcing ratteries into testing/euthanizing all the rats?


----------



## Okeedoke22

I agree very scary. Looks like we are going to lose good breeders. The mills will just start up with bad specimens like nothing happened. Is the CDC going after these big mills? Are they going to all the pet stores these mills sold to? Are they checking list of people sold to and finding them? Or are they just targeting quality breeders? 

China has the vaccine. I'm sure it will need to be tweaked but being expensive should not hold them back from finding a cure. Dogs need vaccines, I'm sure it cost money. The government waste enough money on other stuff. This will save lives. 

I understand people can get sick from this but from what I'm reading it's not deadly? We are at risk of getting sick from many things. I take this very seriously but I take killing animals seriously too. 

Just needed to rant. I'm frustrated I can't welcome my 1st rats to our home but that doesn't compare to the frustration and sadness from all these animals are being put down. ❤

Thanks for listening 
James


----------



## Asiposea

Moonkissed- great news! Does that mean that if you get positive results then you are safe should any investigation in NY take place?




Okeedoke22 said:


> I agree very scary. Looks like we are going to lose good breeders. The mills will just start up with bad specimens like nothing happened. Is the CDC going after these big mills? Are they going to all the pet stores these mills sold to? Are they checking list of people sold to and finding them? Or are they just targeting quality breeders?


From what I'm reading on this thread, It seems they aren't sure where it started. There were rumors that it was a mill but those are yet unfounded. I should hope that the big chains would test their own as they would be very open to lawsuits if they gave infected pets to the public. However, I know that for Petsmart, at least, you have to sign a lengthy contract. And although Petsmart does (or did a long time ago) claim to inspect and perform tests on their mills (I'm guessing of course that SV isn't among them!), perhaps the contract still has some sort of statement that says 'you accept the risks of owning a small pet that potentially carries diseases'? This is speculation.

Perhaps they are testing now for SV...but it wouldn't be in their best interest to announce that? I haven't been in a petstore recently...I wonder if they're even selling rats or if they've sent them back if the store is in a state under investigation? They have stopped selling birds for 6 months in the past when the whole bird-flu thing broke out, so I hope they'd consider the same for rats, at least.



Okeedoke22 said:


> Just needed to rant. I'm frustrated I can't welcome my 1st rats to our home but that doesn't compare to the frustration and sadness from all these animals are being put down. ❤


 Well, just take it as you've got more time to research and prepare (even if you are ready!).


----------



## Okeedoke22

Asiposea said:


> Moonkissed- great news! Does that mean that if you get positive results then you are safe should any investigation in NY take place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I'm reading on this thread, It seems they aren't sure where it started. There were rumors that it was a mill but those are yet unfounded. I should hope that the big chains would test their own as they would be very open to lawsuits if they gave infected pets to the public. However, I know that for Petsmart, at least, you have to sign a lengthy contract. And although Petsmart does (or did a long time ago) claim to inspect and perform tests on their mills (I'm guessing of course that SV isn't among them!), perhaps the contract still has some sort of statement that says 'you accept the risks of owning a small pet that potentially carries diseases'? This is speculation.
> 
> Perhaps they are testing now for SV...but it wouldn't be in their best interest to announce that? I haven't been in a petstore recently...I wonder if they're even selling rats or if they've sent them back if the store is in a state under investigation? They have stopped selling birds for 6 months in the past when the whole bird-flu thing broke out, so I hope they'd consider the same for rats, at least.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, just take it as you've got more time to research and prepare (even if you are ready!).


Ugh more research. haha. I have held off buying hammocks because that would be worse. Cage is already starting to look nice. 

I hope they find out where it started if that helps stop spread or find cure. I don't think anyone is at fault unless they intentionally bred wild rats and then sold them and spread the virus that way. 

I haven't been at a petstore that sells animals recently. I think they stopped selling rats awhile ago because that boy passed away from rat bite fever.


----------



## SpiceDrawer

I just got back from my local PetCo (leopard gecko ran out of superworms), and they've stopped selling their rats as companions due to the outbreak. One of the works there, whom I put a fair bit of trust in, says that a few infected rats have been found at their supplier; however I would put that forward as rumors. 

I must say, I was impressed with the spread of the news after I called my cat's vet. They had heard of the virus's spread, and told me to being in the test cards, and they'll do the procedure and send in the samples for next to nothing. This vet's office doesn't deal with small animals beyond guinea pigs much, and I usually have to travel a good distance to get to my small animal vet, so I was very surprised and impressed.


----------



## moonkissed

> I must say, I was impressed with the spread of the news after I called my cat's vet. They had heard of the virus's spread, and told me to being in the test cards, and they'll do the procedure and send in the samples for next to nothing. This vet's office doesn't deal with small animals beyond guinea pigs much, and I usually have to travel a good distance to get to my small animal vet, so I was very surprised and impressed.


That is great! Some vets are being absurd with charging high prices for it  I've seen hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

My vet was awesome about it and I was able to just have them receive the results.


----------



## Asiposea

Asteria said:


> I believe this is far more widespread than it seems, the focus is so heavy on ratteries but I'm more concerned about wild rats becoming infected from infected disposed bedding in bins or landfill as the virus can survive from quite some time in the environment.


This is from ratguide:

"RISKS: SV-infected pet rats or rat colonies should not be maintained without strict biosecurity protocols and quarantine. They contaminate their environment, and disposalof contaminated bedding and other husbandry supplies can lead to landfill contamination with associated infections of wild rat populations. (Hantaviruses) cansurvive for long periods in the environment: 12-15 days in contaminated beddings. 1Persons that choose to hide potentially Seoul-positive colonies put everyone at risk."

I don't read anything on how to safely dispose of bedding. I'm currently just putting it in a pile at the edge of the woods in my backyard. It seems like anything you do with it will let it contaminate wild populations. I wonder if the virus is killed with people who use fleece bedding? How hot should water be or should bleach always be added?


----------



## moonkissed

> Moonkissed- great news! Does that mean that if you get positive results then you are safe should any investigation in NY take place?


Sorry I missed this.

If my test results come back negative then I should be fine if the health department comes asking.

I am not worried because I haven't brought in new rats for a bit outside of the window they are really looking right now. 

But if I had and one of the ratteries I bought from tested positive they could still come and make me test those specific rats even though I tested cagemates and it would be a waste of time really lol
I do not believe they would do that. They would likely be fine with my test results.


----------



## MRM

Asiposea said:


> I don't read anything on how to safely dispose of bedding. I'm currently just putting it in a pile at the edge of the woods in my backyard. It seems like anything you do with it will let it contaminate wild populations. I wonder if the virus is killed with people who use fleece bedding? How hot should water be or should bleach always be added?


On Pg 3 of the report/memo from RatGuide that you referenced in your post, they mention this on how to dispose of bedding:

"When dealing with rat waste and used bedding it is recommended to spray it downwith a bleach solution to prevent airborne particulates. Wetting the bedding fully,double bagging it in strong plastic bags, and putting it in closed trash cans will deterwild rats from interacting with it and becoming infected."

Hope that is helpful.


----------



## Asiposea

MRM said:


> On Pg 3 of the report/memo from RatGuide that you referenced in your post, they mention this on how to dispose of bedding:
> 
> "When dealing with rat waste and used bedding it is recommended to spray it downwith a bleach solution to prevent airborne particulates. Wetting the bedding fully,double bagging it in strong plastic bags, and putting it in closed trash cans will deterwild rats from interacting with it and becoming infected."
> 
> Hope that is helpful.


Thanks! I guess that fixes the 'not in my backyard' theme. But that still spreads it at landfills? I suppose one could bag it and let it sit for two weeks first.


----------



## Asiposea

Good news...it seems Indiana has been dropped from the list of states under the investigation.



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 13
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 8: CO, IL, MN, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> States with ratteries currently under investigation: 15 AL, CO, GA, IL, IA, LA, MI, MN, MO, ND, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


----------



## Asiposea

As of February 22, Iowa is now on the list of confirmed results for humans or rats.




> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 16
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 9: CO, IA, IL, MN, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> States with ratteries currently under investigation: 15: AL, CO, GA, IL, IA, LA, MI, MN, MO, ND, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


----------



## moonkissed

NJ now too. And Delaware

Being in NY with PA & NJ... not feeling great about that 



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 16
> 
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 9: CO, IA, IL, MN, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> 
> States with facilities currently under investigation: 18: AL, CO, DE*,* GA, IL, IA, LA, MD, MI, MN, MO, ND, NJ, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


I found out today that Idexx sent my results to my vet on 2/7 but my vet said they never got them.... ugh 
So I had them resend them. Hoping to hear tomorrow.

Idexx is awesome. They answer questions so fast and even emailed me back to check in when I didn't respond right away!


----------



## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> NJ now too. And Delaware
> 
> Being in NY with PA & NJ... not feeling great about that
> 
> 
> 
> I found out today that Idexx sent my results to my vet on 2/7 but my vet said they never got them.... ugh
> So I had them resend them. Hoping to hear tomorrow.
> 
> Idexx is awesome. They answer questions so fast and even emailed me back to check in when I didn't respond right away!


And Maryland, ugh.

Well, glad Idexx is working out well!


----------



## moonkissed

Yay my rats are negative! <3 Both Sendai & Seoul


----------



## Okeedoke22

moonkissed said:


> Yay my rats are negative! <3 Both Sendai & Seoul


So Glad to Hear. Now enjoy those little little babies on the way. Hopefully we hear about more and more negative results.


----------



## MRM

moonkissed said:


> Yay my rats are negative! <3 Both Sendai & Seoul


YAY!! Great news!


----------



## moonkissed

Thank you all!

http://www.koaa.com/story/34602523/...uthanasia-methods-after-seoul-virus-confirmed

I don't really have any news but things are kindof looking a bit worrisome right now. I think the CDC may have made some choices on how to handle things. And we are waiting to hear what that is.

But atleast one breeder was told that the CDC changed their minds on how they are handling things and would get back to her with what that means...
And in Colorado they will be having a public meeting on changing laws about pets resulting from this... no clue what this yet means.

I am a bit worried


----------



## Asiposea

moonkissed said:


> Thank you all!
> 
> http://www.koaa.com/story/34602523/...uthanasia-methods-after-seoul-virus-confirmed
> 
> I don't really have any news but things are kindof looking a bit worrisome right now. I think the CDC may have made some choices on how to handle things. And we are waiting to hear what that is.
> 
> But atleast one breeder was told that the CDC changed their minds on how they are handling things and would get back to her with what that means...
> And in Colorado they will be having a public meeting on changing laws about pets resulting from this... no clue what this yet means.
> 
> I am a bit worried


This poor breeder...if she's 'lucky' she'll get to choose 15 out of 100 to keep? This was so sad to watch.

Really worried about the public laws that may change. I remember a long time ago they banned baby turtles under a certain length in some areas because of the salmonella outbreak. The whole thing was surrounded by controversy, but the point being that they made a blanket law making it illegal to sell or own them.


----------



## Asiposea

The CDC doesn't seem to update their site very often! Has anybody heard any updates?

This isn't new, but since I found it, it might be nice to consolidate everything in this thread:

http://www.camarattery.com/files/documents/2_1_17-Conference-Call-Approved.pdf


----------



## moonkissed

They are super slow to update lol

Missouri & Georgia were added. 

1 more human case.

Sadly no good news. Health departments have been a whole lot of words I can't say here.... Many breeders were told one thing and then now turned around and being told they have to euthanize all of them. It is ugly and breeders are becoming more upset and angry. 

Idexx may have also raised their prices from $11 to $35 per rat. I am not 100% sure on that but if so it really sucks.


----------



## Asiposea

Thanks, Moonkissed. And speak of the devil...I see today they updated their site today. 

As of March 3;



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 17
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 11: CO, GA, IA, IL, MN, MO, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> States with facilities currently under investigation: 15: CO, DE, GA, IL, ID, IA, MI, MN, MO, NJ, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


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## Asiposea

There's an update for March 9 on the CDC website, but there has been no change in the reported states.



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 17
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 11: CO, GA, IA, IL, MN, MO, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> 
> States with facilities currently under investigation: 15: CO, DE, GA, IL, ID, IA, MI, MN, MO, NJ, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


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## MRM

Asiposea said:


> There's an update for March 9 on the CDC website, but there has been no change in the reported states.
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]


Yikes, I see that SC has confirmed positives now. That stinks! What exactly does that mean for someone like me? My boys were originally purchased at Petsmart by the family I got them from. They were roughly 9-12 months old when I got them in Dec. (not sure that age really matters).

I know it was stated previously that only breeders are being questioned/tested. What about the mills that supply Petsmart and the like?

Since there have been positive results in SC, should I get my boys tested? They don't interact with any other rats. The only people they see are me, my boyfriend, and, occasionally, the pet sitter. Would he be at risk? All he does is feed them when we are gone for long weekends, he doesn't play with them.

Sorry for so many questions. Thanks!


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## moonkissed

MRM said:


> Yikes, I see that SC has confirmed positives now. That stinks! What exactly does that mean for someone like me? My boys were originally purchased at Petsmart by the family I got them from. They were roughly 9-12 months old when I got them in Dec. (not sure that age really matters).
> 
> I know it was stated previously that only breeders are being questioned/tested. What about the mills that supply Petsmart and the like?
> 
> Since there have been positive results in SC, should I get my boys tested? They don't interact with any other rats. The only people they see are me, my boyfriend, and, occasionally, the pet sitter. Would he be at risk? All he does is feed them when we are gone for long weekends, he doesn't play with them.
> 
> Sorry for so many questions. Thanks!


It is really just your personal choice. If you are at risk (compromised immune system) it is probably a good idea for sure. Just for peace of mind I think it is a good idea. But your choice. It can possibly be airborne kicked up from bedding or such. 

It seems to have gone back as far as June, so if you got them in December it is possible they are infected. 

Sadly they are currently only looking at breeders/pet homes where an infected rat was sold from or to. So they are only tracing infected rats and doing nothing else. Which is kindof sucky.


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## MRM

MRM said:


> I know it was stated previously that only breeders are being questioned/tested. What about the mills that supply Petsmart and the like?


I found my answer in the 2/1/17 conference call notes that Asiposea posted. I'm not really satisfied with the answer, because the CDC rep seemed to avoid answering it in a straight-forward manner. But at least the question was asked. 

Here's what it said, for others that may be interested:
Q: Are you looking at big box stores and large breeding facilities for a possible ground zero?
A: “In 2012-2013 was the UK situation. Several human cases were found. 30% of pet owners had antibodies and therewere minor cases in humans; however only the urine was tested, which is not a good test to do. Also humans weretested and rats were not. And no rats were depopulated, even in big producers. In the USA, they have not startedinvestigating that. The situation with big facilities is different because they have huge amounts and they can easily lockdown, including locking in any wild rats loose in the facilities. So they will not have rats that can be sold on lock down, sothere are no rats to investigate. Thus far no link has been made to this outbreak and the large facilities.”


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## MRM

moonkissed said:


> Sadly they are currently only looking at breeders/pet homes where an infected rat was sold from or to. So they are only tracing infected rats and doing nothing else. Which is kindof sucky.


Yes it is. It's almost like they are avoiding testing the big box stores and mills, because they may just open pandora's box. I'm honestly still confused with the answer they provided to question in 2/1/17 conference call. So, because a big facility can "lockdown" there are no rats to investigate??

Anyways, I'm going to look into the IDEXX test now. Sucks.


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## moonkissed

MRM said:


> Yes it is. It's almost like they are avoiding testing the big box stores and mills, because they may just open pandora's box. I'm honestly still confused with the answer they provided to question in 2/1/17 conference call. So, because a big facility can "lockdown" there are no rats to investigate??
> 
> Anyways, I'm going to look into the IDEXX test now. Sucks.


It feels very much like they just know they can bully pet breeders honestly. A large mill or pet store will have lawyers and can fight. 

By lockdown they prob mean a larger place doesn't care if they test positive and can just euthanize the rats without issue. But I doubt they test and that is the problem.


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## moonkissed

Somewhere in this thread people asked about helping some of the breeders affected or being able to donate.

I hope this is ok to post as none of these is me.

These are some of the breeders who have been affected and are asking for donations to help cover testing costs.

Many have been given the option to test or euthanize & testing is not cheap. I can't imagine being in that situation 
I know them & they are all really lovely breeders & wonderful people and this is just so difficult for them.

If anyone wants to help any of them out, every tiny bit counts or even just send well wishes or positive thoughts/prayers I am sure they would appreciate it.

Honestly it is so wonderful, so many of us suggested and pushed them into accepting donations and they didn't want to ask for hand outs but they do not want to have to euthanize their rats, so I am really glad they are.

Cosmic Curls Rattery - https://www.gofundme.com/save-the-rattiesseoul-testing-fund
Fairly Rats Rattery - GoFundMe.com/FairlyRatsWillTestNegative
A Rats Tale Rattery - gofundme.com/seoul-testing-sponsorship
Pam's House of Bloos Rattery - https://www.gofundme.com/seoul-virus-testing


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## thepumpkinrat

*I recommend you don't read this if reptiles/feeding them makes you uncomfortable* 



I was really hoping this virus wasn't going to spread  It's too bad, my rats don't ever interact with other rats. However, two of my boys I bought a few weeks before the initial outbreak and it's been making me really nervous how close to Massachusetts the virus has gotten.
Does anyone know what this virus could mean for companies that sell frozen thawed rats for reptiles? Is this something that can also be spread to humans/other rats that way?


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## Asiposea

The CDC has updated as of March 14, but there have been no changes thus far:



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 17
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 11: CO, GA, IA, IL, MN, MO, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI
> States with facilities (for example, homes or premises) currently under investigation: 15: CO, DE, GA, IL, ID, IA, MI, MN, MO, NJ, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


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## Asiposea

thepumpkinrat said:


> Does anyone know what this virus could mean for companies that sell frozen thawed rats for reptiles? Is this something that can also be spread to humans/other rats that way?


Yes, there is a risk. A few companies irradiate their mice to eliminate pathogens or viruses. Pumpkinrat- PM me if you need more info.


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## lilspaz68

OK I just read all 13 pages to see what's been said, asked and answered. I was actually tracking all of the ratteries affected and results of testing, and how they were exposed, but then sadly caught that horrendous flu and have been out of commission on my updates for awhile.

I can add some things though to the general information pool though 

There are 2 types of this SEOV virus being tested for in humans. I cannot remember the actual scientific terms but basically "new" which is a few months old, and "old" which is from the beginning of time to up to that time. Humans get tested for both. Rats get only tested for new as they have a persistent infection. The Canadian breeder who actually posted on her page about her human positive was postive only for the old virus so she wasn't affected during this current outbreak and may have been exposed anytime. There are breeders in Ontario mentioned that have been doing imports and trading with affected ratteries in the US but she's not posting about it at all.

The CDC is doing trace-forward and trace-back to find all the affected people/rats and to try to limit exposure. I don't think they realized how much trading of rats went on, so hopefully eventually they will call SEOV endemic and will call off the witch hunt.

People are more frightened of the states/counties overreactions then the fear of the virus itself now. As Moonkissed said, the response by these individuals is varied and uneven and breeders are being told a lot of stuff one day and then bullied to depopulate the next, being served with Notices etc. 

In the UK, they only depopulated ONE rattery before realizing trying to do traceback/forward was going to be too much, and labelled SEOV endemic.

In Canada they are not as concerned about it as in the US either.

The rumor is that at least one of the affected ratteries trapped and used wild rats in their breeding program (and encouraged others to do so as well), and this is likely where it all initiated. It seems IL is state zero still even after all this time. I personally thought it was Utah but nothing is coming out about that anywhere officially, just suppositions by others.

One thing I noticed with my research was that the virus is not a fast mover, nothing like SDA or Sendai...but generally once people are positive, there's going to be rat positives. The ratteries with a lot of positives have had it longer, and the ones who just recently adopted are a lot less likely to have it themselves as exposure time was less. 

There is 3 options the CDC suggests if you have rat positives

1) Depopulation (recommended)
2) Quarantine for life (a lot harder than it sounds, with huge biosecurity measures and its likely the rats can never leave your home)
3) Euthanize all positive rats, then retest in 4 weeks at your own expense, euth all positives then retest again, hopefully with no more positives. VERY expensive and some vets are charging fortunes or refuse to do its as the biosecurity protocols involved.


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## Rattielover965

Updates?


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## zuldrak

the CDC hasn't updated their seoul page since march 14th, and i haven't read any news articles about people becoming infected since around that time as well. hopefully this thing has been gotten under control.


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## moonkissed

It is still somewhat ongoing as they are still talking to some breeders but it looks like they are pretty much done with it.

From the CDC/Health Department side it looks like they are not really pursuing it further. I know some states seem to not even care anymore.
It super sucks for those who breeders who lost so much when they are just like eh whatever now 

But breeders are still dealing with it. Some still are working with them to test or testing on their own. Some are being required to test multiple times so that is still ongoing.


I am reopening since I tested Negative and am not in an affected state but I still know many within those states are still closed and/or testing.



I will say that this does not mean Seoul is poof gone. It just means that it is not quite as big of a deal IMO as they treated it at first.


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## Kelsbels

moonkissed said:


> From the CDC/Health Department side it looks like they are not really pursuing it further. I know some states seem to not even care anymore.
> It super sucks for those who breeders who lost so much when they are just like eh whatever now


Wow, that's awful. I feel bad for all those who have lost their rats to the CDC's rash behavior.  I wonder why they were taking such drastic measures then just shrug and move on?!


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## ratiesrule

I actually just talked to my Virology professor about this today. He'd been following it out of curiosity and this is basically what he told me. They haven't completely stopped following it, they just don't want to freak people out more by publishing everything right away, and they have located the major sources so from their standpoint a few breeders with one or two rats that test positive is a lot less concerning. Also, as someone previously mentioned, with it being a "new" strain of virus and with it being the first time pet rats have passed this they really cracked down hard because of the fear of it being an emerging zoonosis virus that could have had the potential to spread fast and far. When it didn't do this and when they were able to relatively easily back-track the sources and take care of it the CDC was less concerned. There will always be viruses and diseases that can be spread via animals, where it's a major concern to the CDC is when it's an unknown or new virus that has the potential to become an epidemic. Yes it's still tragic and awful to breeders and pet owners having to test their rats and potentially euthanize some, but the CDC is only concerned about preventing major spread of disease. It sounds cold, but the reality is they have many viruses and diseases to tack so can't put all their energy into one any longer than necessary. Hope that makes sense!


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## Ratologist

ratiesrule said:


> I actually just talked to my Virology professor about this today. He'd been following it out of curiosity and this is basically what he told me. They haven't completely stopped following it, they just don't want to freak people out more by publishing everything right away, and they have located the major sources so from their standpoint a few breeders with one or two rats that test positive is a lot less concerning. Also, as someone previously mentioned, with it being a "new" strain of virus and with it being the first time pet rats have passed this they really cracked down hard because of the fear of it being an emerging zoonosis virus that could have had the potential to spread fast and far. When it didn't do this and when they were able to relatively easily back-track the sources and take care of it the CDC was less concerned. There will always be viruses and diseases that can be spread via animals, where it's a major concern to the CDC is when it's an unknown or new virus that has the potential to become an epidemic. Yes it's still tragic and awful to breeders and pet owners having to test their rats and potentially euthanize some, but the CDC is only concerned about preventing major spread of disease. It sounds cold, but the reality is they have many viruses and diseases to tack so can't put all their energy into one any longer than necessary. Hope that makes sense!


Thanks for posting this. This is an important piece for people to understand, and I think you stated it really well.


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## Kelsbels

@ratiesrule , yeah it makes sense that they'd do it that way. Still, I feel bad for the people who were being responsible and bringing their rats forward for testing and ended up losing them.


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## Asiposea

As of April 25th:



> Number of laboratory-confirmed recent human cases of Seoul virus: 17
> 
> 
> Number of states reporting laboratory-confirmed Seoul virus positive results for humans or rats: 11: CO, GA, IA, IL, MN, MO, PA, SC, TN, UT, WI


They no longer mention that certain states are under investigation.


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## WindyCityRats

I'm jumping in here super late, and I'm only a lurker on this forum. But on a whim tonight, I decided to go to website of the breeder I got my girls from. I opened it only to find a blog post about the virus and the CDC euthanizing all of her animals because she tested positive. She traced this back to an exchange of animals in November. I picked up my third baby from her on November 29th. The infected rats would have never come in /direct/ contact with my girl, and they were likely still in quarantine by the time I picked her up, but obviously things can spread quickly. I don't want to contact the breeder with questions unless it's absolutely necessary - I'm sure she does not want to think about this any more than she has to. Neither I nor anyone who has ever been in contact with my rats has gotten sick, although I know not everyone shows symptoms. But reading through this thread, it looks like the virus itself is less of a big deal than was originally thought? Do I need to do anything? Should I do anything? My mind is just turning like crazy, thinking of my babies parents being euthanized, and the poor, sweet breeder having to go through the loss of all of her rats.... My heart hurts. Any advice would be welcome.


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## CorbinDallasMyMan

WindyCityRats said:


> I don't want to contact the breeder with questions unless it's absolutely necessary - I'm sure she does not want to think about this any more than she has to. Neither I nor anyone who has ever been in contact with my rats has gotten sick, although I know not everyone shows symptoms. But reading through this thread, it looks like the virus itself is less of a big deal than was originally thought? Do I need to do anything? Should I do anything? My mind is just turning like crazy, thinking of my babies parents being euthanized, and the poor, sweet breeder having to go through the loss of all of her rats....


I would hope that if there had been any chance of your rat being exposed to the virus, you would have already been contacted about it. I would _hope_ that would've been the case. The timing is really close, though. I totally understand your concerns.

If it were me (just to be sure), I'd send the breeder an email to ask her about the timeline of events just to make sure that the Seoul carrying rats weren't a part of her breeding colony before Nov. 29. Personally, I wouldn't feel bad at all about bringing this up with her. I can't imagine how difficult this experience must have been for her but if she truly cared about her rats, she also cares about your rats. She'll absolutely understand why your asking about it.

If it turns out that there's a chance that your rats came in contact with Seoul, I would probably not bring any new rats home until your current mischief has completely cycled out. This would probably mean that the last rat would be alone, but at least it would prevent any possible continuation of the virus. I'm sure you've already seen the [CDC page](https://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/outbreaks/seoul-virus/cleaning-up-pet-rodents.html) on disinfecting and disposing of litter and bedding.

Other breeders... your thoughts?


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## Danes'n'Rats

What are the syptoms of this. I'm no where close to their but can't put my rats down or leave them as they get lonely whenever i leave.


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## Coffeebean

Danes'n'Rats said:


> What are the syptoms of this. I'm no where close to their but can't put my rats down or leave them as they get lonely whenever i leave.


Rats are immune and show no symptoms. The only way to know if they carry the virus is to get blood tests. The virus doesn't affect all people but when it does then symptoms can show as fever, headache, back and abdominal pain, chills, nausea, blurred vision, flushing of the face, inflammation/redness of the eyes, rash. Symptoms begin within one to two weeks after contact but rarely up to eight. In rare cases it can lead to HFRS but most infections are moderate or cause mild to no symptoms.


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## WelshRat

I know that the virus can't be passed from person to person but Do you think it's possible that humans carrying the virus with no symptoms can pass it on to rats? Everyone seems so focused on rats spreading it to us I can't find any information on the other way around.


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## Catsratz

moonkissed said:


> Updated states: PA is right next to me  PA actually had rats testing positive. They are slow to update their info, I'm not sure why.


PA is plain slow, period. I've found this out during 9 years of residence.

PS I posted this article at the time I wasn't coming here and am now amazed both to see it both as a Sticky and that it got so many responses. I so hope it was not a major issue for anyone here (I haven't gone through all the postings yet). And after seeing this article it pretty much dropped out of sight in the news, so I didn't at first realize the severity of the issue. Wishing the best for all of my human and 4-footed friends.


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