# Lab animals



## Adeliek

Okay so this isn't an area of expertise for me but I just discovered something that has really upset me. I have a friend who is in their third year of studying pharmacology at university, and they get to do a project that allows them to conduct an experiment/research on lab rats. Now at first I was kind of excited for him because rats are such lovely animals and I finally have someone to share a bit of enthusiasm for rats with. He has-of course- completely fallen in love with his 6, I was curious to find out what happened after. I expected the worst but naively believed there was the possibility you could adopt them or they went on to a bigger better lab. Well obviously they don't, they just end up being PTS. I understand to an certain extent the whole "testing on animals is necessary" argument, not that I 100% support it but I understand it. I just don't understand why these poor rats are bred and then given to university students to test on just because they can. Surely that's unnecessary? I'm a psychology student and we aren't allowed to unethically study humans, so why is it so different for animals? Why are they at least not given a chance once the research is finished?! I'm just angry that they are allowing this, this research is basically completely unnecessary. It's a million miles away from the kind of important medical trials that take place using animals, they're university students!!! All my friend is doing is studying them by making them fat and feeding them cheesecake, poor little ratties.


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## ohmyhi

I would imagine there is a way to adopt the rats out. It is unethical to put down a healthy life no matter the species, being in England (if that is where he is too) I'm not sure on the laws. We do have a BIO class at my school that has betta fish and in the end they just hand them out like they don't have any value. Of course the majority of them live in bad environments because people don't want to research. 

But anywho I would suggest for him to ask about adopting them. Or ask about anyone adopting them, they may not want the rats to be public because they don't want them to breed (if they have rights on that specific type of rat strain they may not want people to reproduce them - or have them be released into the general population). 

I do not believe that testing on animals is ethical especially for a lot of things that we test on them. If you are testing on an animal to help its species than ok I can understand but to test harmful chemicals on them to see if that's safe for people is not ethical to me at all. if its harmful in the first place we don't need it.


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## EmilyGPK

Did your friend request to adopt them? Lab animal adoption used to be unheard of but it is starting to spread since some of the large facilities started doing it.


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## Adeliek

That's what intrigued me in the first place is that I'd started to hear of lab animals being adopted out, I'd be willing to take at least 2! But apparently there is some law over here that means they have to be PTS. I'm definitely going to do some research into this. I understand what you're saying about it not being ethical to test on animals, but even if you did believe it was okay for medical reasons, handing them out to university students just doesn't make sense to me...only for them to gain no real scientific knowledge and then the animals be euthanised. I am definitely going to insist on him asking about them being adopted out, the whole thing is quite secret; the floor the rats are in isnt even on the map of the building, there are no windows and you obviously can't get access witout a card. I can't imagine the department even like the idea of outsiders knowing about the lab.


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## Jess <3

Okay, so that sound extremely creepy!  

I didn't know that sort of thing was allowed in England, we don't even have live feeding here! What's the point in all the laws we have to protect animals if there are other laws allowing this inhumane treatment?! I'd suggest sneaking in and stealing them but i know that's not really practical advice... 

If it is breeding them that's a problem you could offer to get them spayed/neutered and provide documentation to prove it's been done, but it sounds like a whole other issue tbh. Surely that rats weren't exposed to anything harmful within a university so it wouldn't be that either... it makes me so mad that they'd not allow the animals, that unwillingly provide them with what they want, to have a better chance at life once they are done with them.


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## dakotah999

Usually they euthanize them and look inside to see the affects of the drugs they tested.


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## kksrats

I would definitely look into adoption of those animals, it may just be that no one has ever showed interest in doing that before for that lab.

For everyone crying unethical, think about this the next time you or a family member is ill and will either die or be in extreme pain without a medication or treatment...rats are the reason you get that treatment. Rats are how we're beginning to understand psychological disorders, obesity and neurodegenerative diseases. What most of you don't realize is what goes into a proposal to do research using animals; you can't just go grab an animal and start poking and prodding on it. 

@dakotah...No, just no. That's typically not how anyone does drug research unless the animal unexpectedly dies or it's the only means by which they can understand what's going on. Even then, you have to prove beyond a doubt that euthanasia is absolutely necessary.

So...if you don't approve of animal testing then you should definitely turn down the next medication or treatment you need since you're essentially promoting it by paying for that treatment. Or...if you prefer to live, just quietly thank all of the rats in history that have allowed you to live without pain or disease.


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## ohmyhi

Oh no I do not promote testing for no reason. But because of ethics there must be a valid reason for what they are doing. 

And what kksrats is saying is very true. Although personally I would prefer for human trails directly sometimes there are not enough willing people to take medications and so yes the do the studies on rats to figure out a lot of diseases. I still hate it but I know it is necessary to help people, but the idea that some life matters less than ours is truly what bothers me the most. But I thank them and all animals who have helped us in everything and way. 

But I would defiantly insist and am curious as to the location of the classroom. May they are a special strain and/or they do not want people breaking in to take the animals out of there.


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## Adeliek

I had no idea this happened, it was just 'lucky' that I happen to have a friend who is studying this particular course. Like I said before this is a million miles away from crucial medicine and drug trials, this is just a university student trying to get a good grade by researching them and making them fat. Nothing important, nothing life saving. I know where the lab is because I have lectures in the same building, but you have to go up some unmarked staircase to get to it and it's quite secure. I have played over and over in my head the idea of breaking them free and bringing them all home, but I know it's not a realistic solution. If I had to get them spayed/neutered to keep them I'm up for that if that's what it takes! With the testing on animals if it's done ethically then fine okay I can deal with it, but only for medical purposes. Even if these rats are being treated ethically (I've seen pictures and they look okay) I just don't see why it's necessary. I think there are 16 in total for his group. I don't whether to contact the person in charge directly or to get my friend to find out information. I feel that they are very secretive of the whole situation and that if some 'outsider' randomly gets involved it won't go down too well. I also don't believe live feeding is illegal in the UK but there are just so many laws surrounding it that hardly anyone actually does it.


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## Effy

*I would get in touch with the person in charge of the experiments/lab and clearly state that under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 you would like information regarding the future of the rats involved in the experiments and why this outcome has been chosen.
Not sure of the status of your Uni, but most come under the FOIA, so worth a go.

After that, you could possibly take further action, but until you know what is happening and why, you can't really move any further forward.


And for reference, live feeding of vertebrates is illegal in UK since 2006. :3
(Animal Welfare Act 2006)
Invertebrate feeding is legal and I THINK you can get permission to live feed certain snakes if you prove there will be no suffering (hard to do, since it has nowhere to hide and is trapped with a predator...) but don't quote me on that part, I'm not 100% sure about that.*


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## Adeliek

I'm going to speak to my friend tonight to get more information out of him, apparently they used to be allowed to be adopted but one time one got arthritis and it had to be PTS or something, not sure why they would stop adopting for this reason. I just don't want to come across as too judgemental and then get their back up so they get all defensive."Currently under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering, so that would have to be the result of a court case and the judge would have to make a decision. Those of us who have been involved with reptiles will argue that a mouse that is being produced for food really has no cognizance of what is going on and exhibits no fear.Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behavior patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that." This is what I've found, so it states that live feeding isn't illegal, but the practices surround it are...which kind of makes it illegal if that makes sense?


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## MissSix

I'm pretty sure there are ways to for lab rats to be adopted. My grandfather had a ton of lab mice and rats that he rescued (granted this was a long time ago, and in California). 


It would just be tragic to have their lives end without getting to experience real affection. I understand there could be issues with adopting them out because of the effects of an experiment- the rats at the Uni my friend goes to were given injections that have permanently altered their personalities, they bite anyone that gets near them and they can't even be housed together because of their aggression. However, if there's no problems, I don't see why you or any other qualified person couldn't adopt the rats.


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## EmilyGPK

Its certainly possible and encouraged for welfare reasons, but many programs currently focus on beagles and primates. And some insituations are far more progressive than others as it does open them to possible bad press.


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## LilCritter

I have a friend who works with mice and rats on Alzheimer's. They have to be PTS at the end because they need the brain tissue for analysis. Not common, but it's sometimes required in drug trials.


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## CCoyle

I work in a University and we are very secretive about the location of our lab animals. It's not because we're doing anything shady, our rats and mice are well-loved and spoiled as much as possible. But there are very real concerns about animal rights extremists.


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## Adeliek

CCoyle said:


> I work in a University and we are very secretive about the location of our lab animals. It's not because we're doing anything shady, our rats and mice are well-loved and spoiled as much as possible. But there are very real concerns about animal rights extremists.


Yeah this is the reason I got told it's all kept a secret, which I understand. That's why I don't want to contact them directly as I'm worried that's how I'll come across. I just want more information, I don't plan on doing anything extreme I just wish the little guys were given a second chance. The rats are barely three months when the students 'finish' with them, it just seems like a waste to me. I still haven't heard anything from my friend


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## kksrats

CCoyle said:


> I work in a University and we are very secretive about the location of our lab animals. It's not because we're doing anything shady, our rats and mice are well-loved and spoiled as much as possible. But there are very real concerns about animal rights extremists.


Yep. We have had a couple of incidents with extremist groups. What's sad about these groups is that 1. they don't know how we handle our animals and 2. they probably couldn't even give them a better life since most of them are just blindly advocating animal rights when they really have no clue about the animal itself.


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