# punishment?



## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

what are some good ways to punish bad behaviour with rats? we are having issues over the last 2 weeks with both our boys suddenly becoming VERY naughty. so we have tried time out in their cage, doesnt work. being forced to sit with dad when they want to come to mum, doesnt work. any ideas on how to teach them what they are doing is wrong, that works?


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

What exactly are the behaviors that are naughty?


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

stealing food from kids plates, shitting and flicking it at us if we dont give them what they want, and burrowing into furniture, inside the actual structure, not just under a cushion etc.


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## ILoveMyMonsters (May 25, 2012)

Can you elaborate a little? What naughty behaviors are you talking about? Time out is not an effective means of "punishment" though, I have to add.


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

when we have my partners kids over, they will steal food off teh kids plates, and almost be possessive over the plates, which causes the younger kids to be scared and give up their food. if we take away a treat, or tell them off, they force a poo out, and flick it at us, or climb up my partners face and pee on it. GROSS. and they go into the couch structure and hide in it, which is a pain in the backside, which we want to stop. these are the 3 main behaviour issues we have right now


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

What you're describing is rats being rats, although I have to say that I have close to 80 here, every shape, size, age and attitude you can think of, and I have never, ever had a rat flick poop at me. I can't even imagine the behavior. 

When rats eat, it's every man for himself and there's no reason to assume they'd have any different attitude with your children's plates. Put them in their cage at your meal times. 

Rats will burrow into the furniture. Even when told not to. They're rats. Put an old blanket over the couch when they have free range time and keep an eye on them when they're out. 

They urine mark as they're climbing on you, they're scent marking you as theirs/their territory. They don't know from face, hands, legs - they're just doing what comes naturally. If you don't want your face marked, don't let them climb there. 

You don't have naughty rats, you have normal ones. You're the one in control of your environment - and theirs.


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## heroinmethwitch (Nov 10, 2012)

i've never heard of punishing a rat working. period. they only learn through positive reinforcement. they're just think you're a huge evil monster if you "punish them" :/


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## RedFraggle (Jun 4, 2012)

CarrieD said:


> What you're describing is rats being rats, although I have to say that I have close to 80 here, every shape, size, age and attitude you can think of, and I have never, ever had a rat flick poop at me. I can't even imagine the behavior.
> 
> When rats eat, it's every man for himself and there's no reason to assume they'd have any different attitude with your children's plates. Put them in their cage at your meal times.
> 
> ...



Exactly this! That's just what rats do


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## Cookie&Gible (Oct 26, 2012)

if you spray them with water in a spray bottle (ON MIST) they usually stop what their doing to clean themselves.... its not really like a punishment but it stops them from doing whatever they were doing at the time  its a good way to distract them


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Some years ago, I worked with an x-army dog trainer and a fellow who had a doberman that was out of control.

The doberman walked itself to the park and back, pretty much fed itself out of the bag, treed the fellow's girlfriend on the kitchen counter until he got home and bit him when he locked himself out and came in through the window. 

The dog trainer listened and finally commented... your dog is in charge, it runs your household, it decides when and where it poops, it decides who comes and goes and how you are allowed to enter your own apartment. 

Your rats have taken charge of your household. Although in 99.99% of all training matters I recommend posative reinforcement, in the matter of taking charge negative reinforcement works too. But it must be immediate and consistant. Punishing a rat half an hour after it's done something wrong is useless as the rat doesn't remember what you are punishing him for and if you allow him to eat off your plate on Sunday and not Tuesday, he hasn't a clue what he's doing wrong one day and right another.

So rules have to be rules... always and he gets bopped and yelled at as he's doing something wrong so he learns never to steal food from a plate for example. Rats learn fast... he flicks poop, gets instantly yelled at and bopped (gently with kindness in your heart) and he might never do it again. Some behaviors are going to take longer to unlearn.

But from what I can tell, your rat has been doing a great job of training you. He's obviously a bright animal and most likely shares a very special bond with you and your partner. I'm sure he's very proud and happy to be your alpha and have you as members of his pack.

What's wrong with this picture?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Positive reinforcement with food is the easiest way to train rats. I don't think that negative reinforcement/punishment doesn't work, because they are smart buggers, but there are very few ways to really punish a rat. I really do not recommend hitting your rats... they are very fragile and a flick in the wrong place (esp. the face or nose) could break bones. You also do not want them to start associating your hands with punishment or pain, or you might find the next time you try it they turn around and bite... if they really enjoy being out of the cage, you could set up some sort of a "timeout" cage... something very basic with no toys/huts, just a water bottle, and place them in it for 20 minutes or so if they are being "bad". Don't know how well it would even work though... I've never had to punish any of my rats


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

In my opinion, it's counterproductive to even consider punishment for behavior that the rat considers perfectly normal. They won't get it. If they're plopped down on a table full of food, they're going to eat without regard to whose plate it is. To them, it's theirs. They've never been taught any different and wouldn't even consider that food offered outside the cage (or on a child's plate) would necessitate any different behavior than it does inside the cage. 

I suppose you could try to train them to table manners, but it would mean long, patient lessons and positive reinforcement - I don't think they'd respond to punishment with anything but confusion and I don't think the OP has attempted any kind of training. The ultimate responsibility lies with the owner, not to put them in situations where they'll naturally engage in undesirable behavior. It's like punishing a rat for being a rat.


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## binkyhoo (Sep 28, 2008)

My rats are proud and happy every time I give them a cherrio.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I thought I had written a more detailed follow up but it seems to have been eaten by the internet... oh well short recap should do...

Negative reinforcement works based on 

Immediacy - it has to take place concurrent with the undesireable behavior
Consistancy - it has to occur every time the undesireable behavior takes place
Severity - the more severe the consequences the less likely the rattie is to repeat the undesireable behavior

There's no evidence that a "time out" is effective in changing a rats behavior or that they would recognize it as a punishment or associate it with their actions.

Animals and people become more and more resistant to negative reinforcement over time if it is over used.

Alpha rats use both posative and negative reinforcement on their subordinates so rats do understand the principle both ways and from both perspectives.

That said, positive rewards are usually more effective and negative reinforcement should be limited to only those situations that can't be handled any other way. 

Last footnote... rats are very smart and very little negative reinforcement is required to change their behavior. A loud no and a gentle bop usually works. In the case of my more stubborn spoiled rat, about 10 loud no's and 10 two finger gentle bops usually gets her to stop what she's doing and weeble away grudgingly or new rat pauses with a loud no and stops with one gentle bop then climbs all over me to apologize. Very low severity and very high immediacy and consistancy works as well as a single severe adverse situation to change behavior. Ideally there's a correct level of severity, immediacy and consistancy that will work best, but it's best to err on the side of caution, rats are small animals and we are very large and strong and the object of the exercise is to change the behavior not hurt the animal.


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

I suppose you could try to train them to table manners, but it would mean long, patient lessons and positive reinforcement - I don't think they'd respond to punishment with anything but confusion and I don't think the OP has attempted any kind of training. a rat for being a rat.[/QUOTE]
The ultimate responsibility lies with the owner, not to put them in situations where they'll naturally engage in undesirable behavior. It's like punishing

thanks for that -_-
we have trained them really well, they use the litter box, walk to heel, everything. the only things we cant get them to do is stop pooing on us when we use negative reinforcement, and feeding them when they dont do it would mean giving them treats 23.99 hours a day -_-
please do not make assumptions on whether we have tried training etc as it can be insulting and discouraging, especially since we HAVE tried, but we arent being very successful in some areas but making leaps and bounds in others

rat daddy, thanks for that info, its really helpful. since we are 1st time rat owners, we are still learning about rat training and things, but every little bit helps and will be listened to intently. you have helped me on many an occasion, including your shoulder rat guides


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

Also, on the food side, they are getting better except with the youngest kid. the rats still pop out of their cage, rush over to his food, and sit on it hissing and squeaking, which upsets him since hes only just turned 5. any other time they are darlings towards him


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## juliosophiavillamil (1 mo ago)

i like to have a spray bottel if thay go on atop of there cage


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