# Is this wood habitat safe for rats?



## ellebelleeee (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi everyone, I bought this to put into my rat cage and so far, little Theodore loves it! I have learned that pine is bad for rats and he does nibble on this. The description says "natural wood" which isn't super helpful. Has anyone used these before? Or know if it is pine or not? I hope it is safe, he seems to really love playing and jumping around all over it!

All Living Things Reptile Refuge:
http://www.petsmart.com/reptile/hab...-catid-500027?var_id=36-14750&_t=pfm=category


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## Phile (Oct 29, 2014)

I think the problem with pine is breathing it, not eating it. Even if there is some theoretical risk, you're far better off with that than a cage full of pine shavings.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

From my experience, these are safe. However, keep in mind that it will eventually get saturated with pee and there's really no way to clean wood like that. When it starts getting stinky, replace it.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The problem with pine is 2 fold, dust and phenols and these affect the respiratory tract. Different forms of pine have very different levels of these. Generally the smaller the peices the worse they are, so sawdust is the worst, wood shavings can be bad (unless you get a good dust extracted heat treated type) and solid pine is pretty safe. This is all to do with surface area. The bigger the surface are relatively the more phenols will come out and the more dust will be trapped. A solid large object has a relatively small surface area whereas sawdust has many tiny bits and so a reltively massive surface area.

Basically your fine with that but as kksrats mentioned it will get whiffy over time. I find hot soapy water and a good scrub helps for a time.


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## Munchies (Nov 23, 2014)

Isamurat said:


> The problem with pine is 2 fold, dust and phenols and these affect the respiratory tract. Different forms of pine have very different levels of these. Generally the smaller the peices the worse they are, so sawdust is the worst, wood shavings can be bad (unless you get a good dust extracted heat treated type) and solid pine is pretty safe. This is all to do with surface area. The bigger the surface are relatively the more phenols will come out and the more dust will be trapped. A solid large object has a relatively small surface area whereas sawdust has many tiny bits and so a reltively massive surface area.


So would a chinchilla hut made of pine be o.k.? I opt for willow twigloo instead because I thought the pine fumes would harm them, though the huts looked much better.


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## ellebelleeee (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks all for your responses! I've got all fleece bedding and a large ferret nation cage with ventilation so I'm not too worried about fumes since this is the only (potential) pine part. Thanks for the feedback - I'm feeling a lot better about leaving it in there.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

For those of us that have been keeping rodents on pine for 30 plus years, the real danger is that pine molds if stored damp. That can really make your rats sick. And perhaps moisture causes more phenols to be released too. Larger shavings, low dust and ventilation combined with properly stored pine hasn't ever bothered any of the animals I've used it with. Maybe over decades it would make a difference, but rats don't live that long. 

It was actually rather strange how the whole phenol scare coincided with the introduction of paper bedding... Now if you've ever seen paper being made or recycled, you might get scared too and certain inks actually need to be disposed of as toxic waste.

Years ago my mom's friend was dying of cancer and I was ten years old and clearly recall her saying she never even bought milk in those paper containers, she still had it delivered in glass bottles... She passed away soon thereafter as did the toxic milk container scare... Take a soda bottle and wash it out well, then store it for a few months sealed, open it and sniff it, it will smell like something nasty, so sure it's leaching something, just not in the amounts that are likely to harm you. Most of us actually live in a pretty toxic environment when you think about it.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> For those of us that have been keeping rodents on pine for 30 plus years, the real danger is that pine molds if stored damp. That can really make your rats sick. And perhaps moisture causes more phenols to be released too. Larger shavings, low dust and ventilation combined with properly stored pine hasn't ever bothered any of the animals I've used it with. Maybe over decades it would make a difference, but rats don't live that long.
> 
> It was actually rather strange how the whole phenol scare coincided with the introduction of paper bedding... Now if you've ever seen paper being made or recycled, you might get scared too and certain inks actually need to be disposed of as toxic waste.
> 
> Years ago my mom's friend was dying of cancer and I was ten years old and clearly recall her saying she never even bought milk in those paper containers, she still had it delivered in glass bottles... She passed away soon thereafter as did the toxic milk container scare... Take a soda bottle and wash it out well, then store it for a few months sealed, open it and sniff it, it will smell like something nasty, so sure it's leaching something, just not in the amounts that are likely to harm you. Most of us actually live in a pretty toxic environment when you think about it.


Wow, so you've personally had rats for 30 years or more?

Or did you mean you've kept other rodents that long?

Or just a general statement?

Because I'm very interested in all this, scientifically.

The thing is, you have to deal with the danger you know. 

We absolutely KNOW phenols are dangerous. Look up OSHA regulations on working with soft woods like pine and cedar.

Look up the MSDS on them.

We know they cause liver damage and even failure. We know they are a respiratory irritant. I don't think the really solid science here can be dismissed as "the whole phenol scare."

I guess I'm confused by dismissing these known effects by saying "Rats don't live as long."

To me, that is counter-intuitive.

For animals that have such relatively shorter lifespans, wouldn't one presume that toxic effects would impact them in a relatively shorter, quicker manner?

In the same way we generalize that a year of a dog's life is like seven years of a human's (it's actually more complex than that, but for the purposes of illustration), then wouldn't a year of a rat's life be like twenty or thirty years of ours?

So, two to three years of exposure to toxic phenols would be like twenty to thirty years exposure, for a human, reasonably, right?

And gosh, I would hope folks who care enough about their rats to post here are doing a better job of cage maintenance and bedding storage than to let bedding sit until it actually gets moldy, so mycotoxins hopefully wouldn't even come into the equation.

I'm always amazed--in general, not picking on any one person, Rat Daddy--with folks who say they've "never had any problems" with something, when they aren't doing necropsies, and really have zero idea if their rat (or whatever mammal) passed of liver failure, or lung inflammation, or any discernible cause.

With a species so very prone to tumors and respiratory ailments, I sure don't see any reason (other than cheap price and that's surely not justifiable) for risking keeping pets on pine and other phenol sources.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I've kept rats for 28 years now so similar length. My early rats were kept on sawdust in aquariums (as was standard then) then we moved onto wood shavings and when i was around 15 and discovered a rat book we moved then into a cage. At this point is had several groups of rats kept in those conditions from feeder pet shop stock and I'd had no respiratory problems. Now i use card and hemp bedding mainly because i like it and is low dust but u do also really like and often use a bedding called bedmax which is pine shavings but not your really cheap dusty pet shop stuff. It's proper woody low dust heat treated stuff and so much better. i actualythink dustis oftenmore ofan issuetthan phenols, though i wouldn't use phenol containing bedding woth a rat who had resp problems. i have a simple test for of a bedding is rat suitable for both dust and phenol content. i sick some in a plastic tub swirl it around a bit, stick my head in and inhale. If it smells strongly piney or makes me sneeze or similar then it's no good. If it doesn't then i give it a try. If the rats do well on it then i add it to my rotation cycle (i change beddings a fair bit and often use 2 mixed together). It's worth noting though that i do tend to have breeder rats and our lines don't see many resp problems so they are low risk but my early rats were much higher risk and had no problems. Saying that back then resp issues were less common in rats, instead ear infections were the most common issue.

It's probably woth saying that as a breeder i also routinely have my rats pm'd and so have a very good idea of what's going on with there liver and lungs. i didn't as a kid but i know a lot of breeders over here that do keep rats on decent quality wood shavings more of the time than i do (it probably makes it in rotation for 3 months every year) and also pm. It's fair to say that liver issues are very uncommon in rats (I've seen none in mine).

That's not saying that they won't cause issues, or that every bedding is equal, some ive seen are awful (you can get cheap compressed pine shavings woth added lavender over here, it smells really strongly), cedar is also worse than pine generaly (and thankfully not used for pet bedding here). 

i think it's well worth saying with all this that thete are far far worse things people do with thete rats which have a much bigger impact. feeding low quality prostrate will encourage tumour growth noticeably. letting your rats get even a bit overweight increases the chances of a while host of illnesses. feeding to much protien into old age will finish off the kidneys early. feeding salty or sugary food can cause health problems such as heat failure, diabetes, facial ulcers and tooth decay. Rats are also often encouraged to become cuddly lasso rats reducing thete drive to exercise which is one of the best methods of keeping then fit and healthy not to mention slowing the ageing process. Yet pretty much all of these things are more acceptable than bedding choices which i find interesting. 

I'm not saying everyone should use pine bedding but that they should look into it and understand the risks and how this differs, and whilst they are at it look at some of the other bigger risks.


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Isamurat said:


> I've kept rats for 28 years now so similar length. My early rats were kept on sawdust in aquariums (as was standard then) then we moved onto wood shavings and when i was around 15 and discovered a rat book we moved then into a cage. At this point is had several groups of rats kept in those conditions from feeder pet shop stock and I'd had no respiratory problems. Now i use card and hemp bedding mainly because i like it and is low dust but u do also really like and often use a bedding called bedmax which is pine shavings but not your really cheap dusty pet shop stuff. It's proper woody low dust heat treated stuff and so much better. i actualythink dustis oftenmore ofan issuetthan phenols, though i wouldn't use phenol containing bedding woth a rat who had resp problems. i have a simple test for of a bedding is rat suitable for both dust and phenol content. i sick some in a plastic tub swirl it around a bit, stick my head in and inhale. If it smells strongly piney or makes me sneeze or similar then it's no good. If it doesn't then i give it a try. If the rats do well on it then i add it to my rotation cycle (i change beddings a fair bit and often use 2 mixed together). It's worth noting though that i do tend to have breeder rats and our lines don't see many resp problems so they are low risk but my early rats were much higher risk and had no problems. Saying that back then resp issues were less common in rats, instead ear infections were the most common issue.
> 
> It's probably woth saying that as a breeder i also routinely have my rats pm'd and so have a very good idea of what's going on with there liver and lungs. i didn't as a kid but i know a lot of breeders over here that do keep rats on decent quality wood shavings more of the time than i do (it probably makes it in rotation for 3 months every year) and also pm. It's fair to say that liver issues are very uncommon in rats (I've seen none in mine).
> 
> ...


This, to me, is a much more reasonable approach, though.

You ARE doing necropsies, and you do have a thorough understanding of the propensities in your lines and so forth.

Plus, if you are using a high-quality kiln-dried pine, then you are exposing them to very reduced levels of phenols, and with adequate ventilation, the harmful effects are likely negligible.

I don't know if there is a quality of pine bedding even available this side of the pond, such as you describe.

The usual set-up here is with cheap, stinky pine shavings. And cedar is absolutely still sold and marketed as pet bedding.

We really need a pet version of Consumer Reports, badly.

I agree there are other more egregious ways to not do right by one's rats, but this particular thread was discussing the possible harmful effects of wood, so...well, that is what was being discussed. ;D

Don't get me started on obese pets--it's an epidemic, here in America.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Yep it's my pretty hate over here. pity the poor people that show a fat rat when I'm judging at shows lol. I'm not mean but they do get a long lecture about the risks


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm a little older than some folks here, and I can pretty much assure you before the advent of "modern science" people weren't all stupid... Maybe some of us were, but lets be honest that hasn't changed and most likely never will.

When I was a kid back around 1965, I had a mouse live nearly 3 years on ceder shavings in an aquarium... And why did we use ceder back then? Because ceder killed mites, and mites killed rodents and there was no Revolution or vets that saw pet mice that anyone's mom would take their kids pet mouse to back then. Without ceder shavings, there might not have been many pet rodents. 

And by the way from more recent experience mice don't seem to live any longer without the ceder shavings... So really people weren't ignorant, there was a reason for what they did... With Revolution and ivermectin, I suppose no one needs to "risk" using ceder bedding, but there were pet shops that used it long after most people switched away from ceder because they didn't want to treat their rodents with more expensive medications and the old time store owners knew exactly what they were doing and why... The risks were generally low and the rewards high.

I've seen long lived reptiles that are well over 20 years old still living on pine bedding. And I've had other furry critters living on pine before paper bedding that lived long perfectly normal life spans. No, I'm not the type that changes bedding overly often, but I don't let it get too tragically bad either and I always let the dust settle before I put animals back into their enclosures... I also store my pine bedding open to the air in a spare room, not a basement or attic where it can get moldy. I buy it in bulk and most likely the pine has been exposed to dry air for several months on average before I use it. So it doesn't smell like pine anymore...

At the advise of our vet, due to our rat having a tumor, I use paper bedding mostly now... the paper was less likely to irritate the tumors, but the switch wasn't made for fear of phenols. I just bought the stuff on sale in bulk and have some left...

Am I suggesting that phenols are good for rodents.... absolutely not! But also basing my comments on years of experience suggesting that the risks are overstated by an industry that would rather sell the vastly more expensive paper products. I might add that many years ago I worked in a facility that made tobacco and paper products and I saw the kinds of chemicals used to turn pulp into paper and I can assure you the process involved both caustic and toxic chemicals. I sure wouldn't want my kid eating paper or breathing paper dust. Maybe there's a better way of making paper now, it's been a few decades, but I doubt wood dissolves into a slurry and turns white by itself even today.

As to the idea that poisons work faster because animals have a shorter life span, I certainly can't say my experience suggests that at all. One would think as rats live only a tiny fraction of a human lifespan they should die much faster from substances like alcohol poisoning... when in fact rats metabolize alcohol much faster than humans. And yes, I've watched a rat drink a whole room of young adults under the table... to the point she was the last one standing grooming people that had passed out. By about 1:00 PM the next day she was fully recovered from her hangover and on the go again. I'm also not advocating drinking with your rats... Oddly, neither of our current rats drink... but Fuzzy Rat loved tequila, anything over 80 proof and beer, she wasn't much on wine (of course in tiny amounts relative to her size) But if someone put down a shot glass, she, for sure, would make sure to get the drop left on the bottom and follow the glass around the table, if need be and would be the first to soak up any spilled beer and at a party with young people she did better at getting booze than I would have liked.

So no, just because an animal lives a shorter time than humans, it would be very wrong to assume that they would be poisoned more quickly than humans.... Body weight would definitely be a factor as related to the concentration of the toxin, depending on the toxin and the particular animal's ability to metabolize it, but lifespan doesn't strike me as particularly relevant... If a low level of phenols would take 10 years to adversely affect an animal that normally only lives two years, I'd say it becomes irrelevant... An oncologist once told me that cancer will eventually kill everyone if they live long enough... a slightly disturbing thought, but there might be some truth to it.

Sure, it's wrong to discount modern science. I'm not suggesting that folks go back to ceder (unless they have no other treatment for mites available). Nor should folks switch back to pine if they are concerned. I'm just saying that all of us older folks weren't stupid and before and since the "phenol scare" we used/use pine for many years without any noticeable ill effects. 

Seriously, go ask your parents and grandparents who had small animals before paper bedding... and you aren't likely to hear many tragic bedding stories from way back then... mice, gerbils, rats, hamsters and herps lived just as long and were just as healthy when I was a kid as they are now... it might be just a minor glitch of memory, but I actually recall them being healthier and living longer.

Always, keep in mind that science is good at generating valid data, but that data then becomes interpreted. Sometimes relevant study methods aren't real world and even when they are the data can be misinterpreted to sell product or advance an agenda or just scaled out of proportion into a panic. Dozens if not hundreds of generations of rats lived on ceder and pine bedding for decades. We can debate whether it was optimal and perhaps it wasn't, but you can't revise history because of modern science either... Rats lived normal healthy lives back then as they do now... you can't just discount a lifetime of experience or longer because of some study that flies in the face of real world experience.

A very wise friend of my once said that most good debates are between two people that are both right. This is one of those debates. I can't honestly say that I know how pine bedding might affect a rat with respiratory issues, because despite using ceder and pine bedding since the mid 1960's I've still never had an animal with respiratory issues... except once when I let the bedding get moldy in the basement... so from experience, I can say that isn't a good idea.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Isamurat,

Here in the US, there are certain bread for meat rat strains that get fat, I realize they wouldn't win any shows, but it's in their genetics and not the owner's fault. Fuzzy Rat and Amelia lived together and ate the same foods. Fuzzy Rat was always portly with wide shoulders and had a knockwurst body shape while Amelia got huge but always looked sleek and trim. Both rats were females at over 600 g full grown, but only one was overweight. Our part wild rat was the only rat I'd call slim, she was about the same length as Fuzzy Rat but stayed under 300 g and never porked up, she actually lost weight as she got older. 

Not to advocate overfeeding, but sometimes it's a genetic thing as are the health issues rats suffer when they get older. Meat rats are bred to grow fast, get big and square and most likely with complete disregard for longevity which I doubt diet can correct. Short of starving a meat rat it's going to look chubby, even when it's body is tone and firm. Fuzzy Rat looked chunky even when she would walk or run over a mile a day. Again a square rat is not going to get points for it's body shape but it might be unfair to blame the owners too much.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

i wouldn't count actual weight as a sign of obesity, more body shape. In my current group i have tam whose a good weight for him at 560g and Toad his son who is a good weight for him at 750g. a massive difference but right for them. I've had rats who are really tough to keep slim and it is genetic very much. I've also met Zuker rats who have no limit to stop them over eating and so are often huge and because of this live much shorter lives. i do think for the vast majority of rats you can control thete weight within healthy guidelines. What annoys me isn't so much the fat rat bit when owners don't try


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm a little older than some folks here, and I can pretty much assure you before the advent of "modern science" people weren't all stupid... Maybe some of us were, but lets be honest that hasn't changed and most likely never will.
> 
> When I was a kid back around 1965, I had a mouse live nearly 3 years on ceder shavings in an aquarium... And why did we use ceder back then? Because ceder killed mites, and mites killed rodents and there was no Revolution or vets that saw pet mice that anyone's mom would take their kids pet mouse to back then. Without ceder shavings, there might not have been many pet rodents.
> 
> ...


I think this boils down to "To each his own," but I would personally never allow an animal to consume alcohol, especially to the point of "drinking young adults under the table." 

And, the old saw about "This is how it was always done" just does not fly.

Folks used to pour turpentine down into deep wounds on horses, too, but that's not exactly a good practice.

When you know better, you do better.


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## Phile (Oct 29, 2014)

Interesting points all around--I switched from aspen to paper a while ago, and the paper has seemed surprisingly dusty. I may be doing more harm than good. I like th image of the head in bucket test!


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Phile said:


> Interesting points all around--I switched from aspen to paper a while ago, and the paper has seemed surprisingly dusty. I may be doing more harm than good. I like th image of the head in bucket test!


There is actual science on the phenol issue, not just someone-on-the-internet's opinion.

And, I think we can all agree our pets have a far superior sense of smell and ability to detect odors than we do.

Some humans, in fact, amaze me, with how little they can smell, when something is overpowering me, to the point of a headache. Particularly, smokers seem to have some impairment in that function.

I'm sure there are paper litters that are better than others.

That should inspire folks to find a better paper litter or use fleece and a litter pan, as I personally prefer, so the exposure to bedding dust is very limited.

It shouldn't inspire folks to go "Oh, ****, might as well risk health hazards with phenols since some dude on the 'webs said paper might be toxic, too."

I've said it before, and will say it again--pets need a Consumer Protection Agency.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

aspen doesn't have phenols like soft wood shavings so it's usually very good. It's what I'd use in the states as it's most similar to hemp used overt here


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Agreed, on the aspen.

And, way back in the days of the dinosaurs, when I was a teen and worked at Petland, even they didn't keep small animals on cedar, and they limited their use of pine. Don't get me wrong, they are a terrible, terrible chain of pet stores, but they quickly realized that the animals did not do well on the soft woods, and that cut into their profit margin.

I wish there wasn't such a stigma, about hemp products, here in the US. There are a ton of great uses that have nothing to do with drug use--not even the same ballpark.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The seeds are really good too, full of good oils and protien. i suspect that's hard to get hold of over there too. It's used a lot in fishing over here


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You know, I'm not suggesting people switch to pine bedding, just adding several decades of actual experience with it. As to ceder, I suppose it might still work on mites if someone has no other treatment available, but it's not on my first use list either. I've read the studies showing that living on pine raises a rats blood phenol levels, but I haven't actually seen a study that indicates any rats were actually poisoned by pine in an open air environment similar to our relatively large open air rat cages by dry and aired out pine. As to paper products, I suppose I wouldn't panic if my daughter ate a sheet of paper either, but seeing what it takes to make wood into paper, I really wouldn't encourage anyone to eat it either, nor breath the paper dust long term. The guys that worked around the chemicals and in areas of high paper dust wore respirators and face masks, and I don't think it was a fashion statement...

When we sit in traffic we breath in lots of toxic chemicals, but for the most part we don't get sick or die from them. I live near the NJ turnpike and almost 40 years since the last leaded gas car left the assembly line everyone in my household and neighborhood still has the maximum allowable OSHA lead level because the lead still remains in the environment. I suppose less lead would be better, but it's just part of living where we do. The health department passes out flyers about the benefits of green veggies, but otherwise... the lead levels are deemed acceptable... My daughter is an honor student, so who am I to argue? 

So less time stuck in traffic would be a good thing and less lead in our blood would be nice as would be less preservatives in our food or other pollution in our environment... I suppose this is to be encouraged. Less phenols would also most likely be better... But the initial question was whether a wood rat hut would hurt a rat, most likely in a sizable well ventilated cage and from my experience, I don't think it would be. And if the rats chewed it, I don't think any harm would come from it either.

Of some interest, the soft matter under a pine tree's bark is edible as are pine shoots and other parts of the pine, likely this also involves ingesting phenols, but like too much of a good thing might be bad a little bit of a bad thing isn't worth getting too worried about either. 

I suppose if I only read the studies and didn't have decades of actual experience to temper it with, I might freak out too, but knowing both sides, I'm not about to panic anytime soon. That said, I recently found a good supply of cheap aspen so when my last 50 lb bag of pine runs out, I'll likely switch to aspen for just a few cents more...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

POssibly worth mentioning here but i've actually seen more respiratory problems on rats kept on fleece vs those on decent quality pine bedding or another well absorbant bedding like hemp / aspen / cardboard (I've found many paper beddings, not including paper cat litter type things, to be a bit less absorbant than these but more absorbant than fleece). I actually see more of an issue in urea in the air from a bedding that doesnt absorb and lock away the urine to ones that do a good job of it


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> ...I suppose if I only read the studies and didn't have decades of actual experience to temper it with, I might freak out too, ...



Bwahahaha! Thank you for the giggle, truly.

I find it amusing that you think anyone is "freaking out." ;D

Btw, I have decades of experience in keeping small mammals, as well. Perhaps more decades than you, in fact--nearly certainly more decades than you, since I began as a teen and I'm pretty daggone old, hehe.

Just thought I'd mention that as you seem to value "the old ways" and quantity of time, as a counter to any type of new information, and above all else.




Isamurat said:


> POssibly worth mentioning here but i've actually seen more respiratory problems on rats kept on fleece vs those on decent quality pine bedding or another well absorbant bedding like hemp / aspen / cardboard (I've found many paper beddings, not including paper cat litter type things, to be a bit less absorbant than these but more absorbant than fleece). I actually see more of an issue in urea in the air from a bedding that doesnt absorb and lock away the urine to ones that do a good job of it


Interesting comment.

Do you know what the level of cage cleaning/maintenance was, in these cases to which you're referring?

And the size of cage and level of ventilation?

I suppose litter habits would greatly factor in, as well. So many variables, it would be hard to make any sort of generalization, huh?

I actually pulled the fleece liners from my boys' DCN, because their litter habits were terrible. Since pulling the liners, their litter habits have improved exponentially, and at some point they may "earn" their liners back, especially as they will be neutered soon.

My girls are nearly 100% in their litter habits, and I clean the urine waste daily, only takes a couple minutes and is well worth it. I have a very sensitive sense of smell, and don't particularly enjoy the odor of rat urine ;-)


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

My experiences are with both girls and boys in a typical deep plastic pan cage base in a cage large enough for twice there number with decent paper cat litter in the trays. The rats were fairly litter trained. they'd use it for droppings and occasional urine but they weren't the best. i did daily spot cleans and tried newspaper under the fleece a couple times and even litter under the worst corners. It wasn't great. Admittedly i dislike it for more than just the lack of asorbancy, seeing a rat properly dog and forage outweighs the look you get with fleece for me. 

interestingly I've found rats litter train much better woth a loose substrate too. i don't actually have to train them now, they just pick it up using there litter trays well with no real effort from me.

i don't need to clean up there urine note either as I've replaced my shelves with hanging litter trays, so there's none of those tempting flat surfaces for rats to mark


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Isamurat said:


> My experiences are with both girls and boys in a typical deep plastic pan cage base in a cage large enough for twice there number with decent paper cat litter in the trays. The rats were fairly litter trained. they'd use it for droppings and occasional urine but they weren't the best. i did daily spot cleans and tried newspaper under the fleece a couple times and even litter under the worst corners. It wasn't great. Admittedly i dislike it for more than just the lack of asorbancy, seeing a rat properly dog and forage outweighs the look you get with fleece for me.
> 
> interestingly I've found rats litter train much better woth a loose substrate too. i don't actually have to train them now, they just pick it up using there litter trays well with no real effort from me.
> 
> i don't need to clean up there urine note either as I've replaced my shelves with hanging litter trays, so there's none of those tempting flat surfaces for rats to mark


Ah, okay, that's the kind of detail I was wondering about.

Fleece sure isn't for everyone--I've kept rabbits and cavies on it for decades, so I'm an old hand at what works for my set-up and what does not.

It can take some tweaking, and partly depends on the animals involved. Some of the things I've learned over the years are to wash it several times prior to first use, and to make sure there is something suitable underneath if they are eliminating on it, because fleece itself is not absorbent, but instead just wicks away moisture (I'm sure you already knew that, just sayin' for anyone reading along who hasn't used it.)

I also always use dye and fragrance-free laundry detergent--I think anything else could be a respiratory and/or skin irritant.

And yes, I do think digging and foraging are important--I meet the needs of my small animals by providing dig boxes and forage toys, both in their enclosures and in the exercise area.

Those hanging litter pans sound very interesting--I'd love to see pics of them if you have any handy.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Here's a good photo of one though not the most recent. 



they are standard cat litter trays. i melted 4 holes, one in each corner, with a heated scewer though a drill would be as good. i use keyring clips to make then easy to move around and so far they've lasted me a good 8 years. i used to have to replace shelves faster than that due to urine staining even with regular soaking and scrubs


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Isamurat said:


> Here's a good photo of one though not the most recent.
> 
> 
> 
> they are standard cat litter trays. i melted 4 holes, one in each corner, with a heated scewer though a drill would be as good. i use keyring clips to make then easy to move around and so far they've lasted me a good 8 years. i used to have to replace shelves faster than that due to urine staining even with regular soaking and scrubs


Pretty cool idea.

It looks like you have one of them set up to be sort of a dig box, as well?

I also imagine that with a breeding colony, you likely have more actual marking going on, right?

I know with larger emergency foster/rescue situations, I've had as many as thirty intact animals, all wanting to establish their "territory." Fun times.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Golly, Ratpax, please forgive me for sounding like I'm accusing you personally of being young. Although sometimes I wish someone might do me that favor in person some time. Although my remark was written in part for a broader readership, some of which are in my opinion overreacting to the dangers of pine bedding, you have assuaged my fear that you are among them. Not young - not freaking out - Got it, all good.

I haven't had any problems with dry well kept pine or even ceder bedding (back in the 1960's) I'm not sure if you're saying that you have or not. If you have had bad personal experiences with either, I'd love to hear them. I try to keep an open mind.

I keep current, as best I can with research and current "best practices" but so far and until Alzheimer get's a better foothold on me, I don't forget what I've personally learned in the past... But we've both made our points and there's no sense beating this particular dead horse...

Still science vs experience is a point to ponder in general... Currently popular quantum mechanics suggests that if you lock a cat in a box with some poison, it is both dead and alive until you open the box and both timelines run concurrently. This is called the observer effect. Now my personal experience tells me that a cat can be dead or alive but never both... And I would suggest that if you don't open the box, sooner or later the outcome will become predictably evident simply by the smell. I realize for the physics majors I've really shorthanded this experiment but I think I've pretty much hit the highlights...

Now we can repeat this experiment until we run out of cats, but that won't change how different people will interpret the results. My experience tells me the cat either eats the poison and dies or it doesn't. The cat is never both dead and alive. Certain theoretical physicists are going to say the cat is both alive and dead until someone opens the box and looks in. No matter who runs the experiment, most likely we're going to kill the same number of cats, but we're going to see things differently. Based in my experience, I'd predict that we are going to kill more cats by running the experiment than by not running the experiment, so experience would suggest actually running the experiment is a bad idea. Experience has it's benefits... especially if you like cats or happen to be one. Scientific data is a great thing, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum it's in how it's interpreted that gives it meaning... and experience plays a role in how data should be interpreted. 

I love new ideas and new solutions to old problems, for example I prefer Revolution over ivermectin and ceder for mites, but sometimes new ideas don't improve things as much as one might think... A six bladed razor might theoretically give a better shave... but in practice a sharp blade doesn't leave anything behind and five sharp blades following closely behind a dull one that's snagging hair and tearing up skin isn't much of an improvement... so yes, my straight razor is likely to hang around until my hands get too shaky to use it. And if you ever have to shave without running water a straight razor is way easier to wipe off on a cloth than a clogged multi-blade wonder. That's not to say that the expensive modern multi-blade razors don't work or that they aren't better for some people, but I can feel perfectly comfortable saying that old technology can work just as well and perhaps have it's benefits too... So, it's great to keep current but experience still has it's place.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Ratpax said:


> Pretty cool idea.
> 
> It looks like you have one of them set up to be sort of a dig box, as well?
> 
> ...


Thats a deep plastic tub i set up as a digging box, similar idea though but i could get a lot more substrate in and the lid meant they didnt excavate it everywhere.

Im not really a traditional breeder lol, most of the time its just me and my small group of boys. I breed in a team, so when it comes time to have litters i borrow one of my teamates girls (well actually 3 of them, 2 for company and 1 to be a potential mum) and then mate them up, so most of the time the boys dont have any extra cause for marking. Everynow and then though my numebrs shoot up for 3 or 4 months when i have extra girls then a large group of babies, sometimes more than one group. I do also regularly rat sit for people so over the holiday seasons i typically have another cage or two of boys or girls, useually intact as well as most of my friends are breeders, sometimes foster rats too as i'm conveinantly placed in the country and tend to be a good stop over for them enroute to a new home. I do tend to limit that to 1 or at the most 2 groups at a time though mainly due to space.


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