# What's up with people supporting Petco/Petsmart so much on here?



## Rosalynn (Aug 3, 2012)

This is a forum full of rat lovers (and I'm assuming general animal lovers). Why are so many people giving their money to companies that treat animals like an impulse purchase? They include cedar/pine shavings in starter kits that are too small for a pair of rats for heck sake! Not to mention the conditions they keep their rats (and other non-human animals) in. Clearly they don't know much about what animals actually need to have a high welfare while living in captivity and are more concerned about paying the bills. I'm disappointed, I thought more people would care about the well being of other non-human animals on here 

I just don't understand this, does anyone have a comment/reasoning for this?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Must say i found it a little strange myself, but assumed it's a different country/culture thing. In the general UK rat fancy (online and active/showing) going to pet shops is pretty frowned on unless you've never heard any better. We recommend breeders or rescues and failing that the rescue section in petshops (all pets at home have one, though it's a bit dodgy as they put animals that are too old to sell in there too, so not a true rescue). Saying that the UK is an awful lot smaller in terms of getting around and there are a fair few good breeders and rescues here so maybe it's about options.

One thing i always show people who are keen on petshop rats here though is this Article, it's an example of a rodent farm, where pretty much all pet shop rats come from in the UK and Europe, not sure if it's the same over in the US though.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Honestly, I'm not sure. I have a few guesses, though. 

Perhaps it's just ignorance. Maybe they don't realize the cruel industries that they are supporting.

Or, it's possible that they don't know/think that they have other options for both their pets and their supplies. There are rescues out there that don't mind one bit driving to meet someone if it means that rats get a home. Therefore, rescue rats are closer than people think. In the way of supplies, everything can be purchased online, or at farm supply stores.

Isamurat: Yes, the rodent mills here in the US are the same, or perhaps even worse, judging by those pictures. A lot of people simply do not realize where the rats come from or how they are treated there. Then, unfortunately, they come here with a rat several months old and wonder why trust training has come to a halt. That's where we come in.

I truly hope that it's a matter of ignorance and not apathy. We just have to keep trying to educate people.


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## ILoveMyMonsters (May 25, 2012)

I agree with cagedbirdsinging. I believe that it is really a matter of ignorance here in the States. People aren't aware of where their new pets come from and fail to ask the right questions. It's a matter of potential pet owners educating themselves before buying (any animal), knowing what to ask, and being aware what constitutes as a red flag. There is a lot of focus here about puppy mills, but I have found little about the other non-dog animal mills that are just as horrendous. 

My boys are from the two opposite spectrums. Tanto is a rescue from the Humane Society, while Axl is a boy from a big chain store. The big box stores hide where they get their animals from and will not tell you. It's ridiculous and once I found out where Axl came from exactly, I was mortified at how inhumane the conditions were and how unregulated it is here in the states.


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## Cupcake&Candy (Jun 5, 2012)

*Whooooa! Enough of the judgemental attitude*

 I, for one, am an avid animal lover. Every pet I own has come from the city shelter or a local rescue. I myself volunteer at 3 local rescues & weeekend adoptathons. When I decided to own rats again, I tried THREE separate times to adopt from the local mouse/rat rescue. Each time the manager had an excuse: 1) I had to adopt the female dumbo with *all her cagemates also *(at $20 each) - not allowed to chose which rats I wanted. 2) fell in love with two little males, but *couldn't adopt those either* she said because one had an eye infection. 3) fell in love with two young females, but she said *I couldn't have them either* because her husband like them too much. THIS WAS RIDICULOUS!! ???

Secondly, I could find absolutely no breeders/ratteries in the state of New Mexico much less my Albuquerque area. I had no choice but to purchase them. I went to my local PetSmart and found both the manager & salespeople very knowledgeable about rodents. The manager held & kissed each critter we looked at, giving me information on diet, bedding and toys. He even directed me on how to make handmade playgrounds for them! The employees I dealt with were absolutely appalled by the _pet mills for profit _policies, but they themselves provide love & attention to all their animals. 

Lastly, I've had Cupcake, Peppermint & Candy for two months and have never regretted buying them from PetSmart. All the little creatures were kept in clean comfortable cages with plenty of toys and fresh water. The rats I chose were exceptionally friendly and enjoyed being held. No fear, no biting, no running. So please lay off the attitude about our "ignorance" and our intention to support the awful pet mills in this country!!! All of us here @ RatForum love our rats and other pets. If we purchase from pet stores it's probably because we have no other choices or maybe we're trying to rescue a rat from a bad situation.


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## RatMama13 (Aug 20, 2011)

I am all about rescue and shelter adoption as well as getting ratties from good ratteries. However I have the same problem listed about as I live in rural Nebraska and the only 'breeder' is in Omaha, but he has no history on his rats and does not even know proper names for the colors he is breeding. I am very lucky in the our local Petsmarts and Petco are amazing! I worked at a local Vet and they work with the Petcos and if those animals so much as sneeze more than normal to the vet they go! They have excellent husbandry practices and are very knowledgable in their care and are pretty picky as to who they hire in their small animal department so that they can provide the best care and homes possible for their animals. While I still advocate rescues and tell people to look at the local Humane society for rats first sometimes there really isn't an option for those of us who live in an area with no local breeders or rescues.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Offense and judgement was never intended, which is why I assume ignorance rather than simply not caring. Everyone here cares, which is why we're here. If we didn't care, why would we be here?

As I said, many rescues and even some breeders are willing to cross state lines to get rats into good homes. Also, no matter how well a big box store may keep their rats, it doesn't change the fact of where they come from and that the purchase directly supports that industry financially. Those are facts, not opinions.

An opinion is that if they are being cared for so well, one isn't rescuing them from a bad situation.


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## Mrm911 (Jul 6, 2012)

It all depends on the store itself and the workers on there condition at the store. I almost got 2 rats for a store but I had to wait since I was going on a week trip and had to get there cage rigged up. And in that time I found a rat rescue and the lady is so nice and she told me about the localish store(jack's pets) and how they all test positive for dieseases, so I am not going there. And I can't really order online and havn't contacted a feed store in my new area. But right now their food and bedding is stuff I purchased from the rescue which they got from a feed store. So it is part ignorance and part access.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Mrm911: There are Tractor Supply Co. stores within 20-25 minutes of you. They sell large bags of bedding and have lots of supplies.


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## aripatsim (Jul 26, 2012)

I didn't notice "so many people" supporting Petco/Petsmart on here. Why? Because of that one post? Hmmm okay


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

aripatsim said:


> I didn't notice "so many people" supporting Petco/Petsmart on here. Why? Because of that one post? Hmmm okay


This.


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

I bought my two girls at Pets Unlimited because I didn't know any better. I do now. So if I get more pets in the future I will look at adopting or buying from a breeder.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

DustyRat said:


> I bought my two girls at Pets Unlimited because I didn't know any better. I do now. So if I get more pets in the future I will look at adopting or buying from a breeder.


That's excellent! That's why we're all here. To share information and make better choices for our rats. Good on you for doing so!


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## TGQ (Dec 26, 2010)

I'd rather not have rats at all than support those awful mills/BYBs they come from in pet stores, or just be PATIENT and wait for rescues in my area. There are so many rescue options between shelters, rat rescue transports, and craigslist (rehoming, not BYBs), the "I had no other option" hardly seems like an excuse to me. Especially in the US. If it's not a matter of ignorance, it's a matter of impatience.
My boy Murdock was brought over from the hoarding situation in CA (to Ohio where I live). It was extremely rewarding to wait a few months to help out with that.


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## Rosalynn (Aug 3, 2012)

I get my rats from accidental litters listed on Kijiji (Canadian Craigslist) after I give the irresponsible "breeder" an informative talk. My local SPCA's do not have the facilities to care for rats and the local rat rescue group is no longer in operation. So I take unwanted rats from irresponsible owners. It's been working wonderful for me. I also reply to ads on Kijiji about people wanting to sell their rats and tell them if they can't find anyone to buy them, I'll take them. But I'm not paying. 

And the reason I posted this was because as I was going through forums, I was noticing so many people suggest they get their supplies/cages from Petco/Petsmart. And I was getting frustrated! I buy all of my stuff second hand off of Kijiji or I go to Global Pet Foods (pet supply store that sells everything BUT animals). 

It doesn't matter what you buy from Petco/Petsmart, you're giving them money to continue to supply their animals. But then there's the question of you don't want to buy their animals because that supports them and they'll just replace the animals they sell, but those poor animals also need homes!

Ugh, pet stores just need to be shut down. Leave it up to breeders and shelters to give us our animals.


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## TGQ (Dec 26, 2010)

Rosalynn said:


> Ugh, pet stores just need to be shut down. Leave it up to breeders and shelters to give us our animals.


Exactly. In my ideal world, "pet stores" would sell quality supplies and feature adoptable animals from local shelters. (like Petco's adoption first program, but selling NO other animals in store.)
I don't even go into ones with animals because it upsets me too much. I found a great local store that sells only supplies, so I support them when I need bedding or dog food or something.


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## Delilahbrat (Jun 28, 2012)

I go to Pet Supplies "Plus" for everything because they do have an adoption program and adoption-related events, and I'd rather my money go to them rather than the other stores. I once got a ferret from either PetCo or PetSmart. The poor thing was full-grown and wasn't the best-looking ferret. I would see her every time, and I'd always see the babies being played with and purchased, but she'd get passed up. I didn't purchase from there out of ignorance, I did it because I didn't want to see her spend her life in a pet store. She was never handled, so she was vicious and would draw a LOT of blood (she eventually turned into a shoulder-ferret who loved cuddles). Yes, I have my opinions on the big chain pet stores, but it's a catch-22. Those pet store pets need and deserve love- they didn't choose to be sold at a pet store, so why punish them? Pet store life is not a life an animal deserves. Then, there's the other side of it where the money is going to not-so-good places/people. It sucks to be torn like that.


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## Nenn (Nov 13, 2007)

Delilahbrat said:


> Those pet store pets need and deserve love- they didn't choose to be sold at a pet store, so why punish them? Pet store life is not a life an animal deserves. Then, there's the other side of it where the money is going to not-so-good places/people. It sucks to be torn like that.


We dont have petco, or petsmart in here, but we do have other animal shops... and I have to agree with Delilah,


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## ILoveMyMonsters (May 25, 2012)

I'm still confused by the original post. There are not a lot of people here who support the big chain pet stores. ??? 

But I wish people wouldn't make excuses to buy from them. There is really no reason to, as I have since found out since getting Axl. By purchasing an animal from them, people are continuing to support BYBs and animal mills *shudders*. He will hopefully be my last pet store rat. *le sigh* in a perfect world, pet stores would either only buy from reputable breeders or only sell supplies. More and more people are becoming aware of the dog side of this argument by being patient and adopting from shelters or a good breeder (although I do acknowledge that not every breeder is decent), so why do so few people continue to buy small animals from poor conditioned BYBs and pet stores rather than being patient and adopting from a shelter? 

To agree with Delilahbrat, it really is a catch-22. It's tempting to save the pet store animals, especially reptile food stock, since they didn't ask to be sold there. I have personally rescued feeders, and while even the feeder rats can make awesome pets but I have noticed that they have shortened life spans and tend to have a myriad of health issues. So my point is, idk. I personally think it's better to resist temptation of a pet store animal and be patient to buy from a good breeder, or even better, save a life and adopt from a shelter. That's my two cents.


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## YellowSpork (Jul 7, 2012)

There's a store by my friend that breeds a lot of their own animals (It's a Pet Supplies "Plus" too actually). Not sure about rats, but I know my hamsters I got when I was little were bred in the back room. I've never seen the conditions they were in so for all I know it's not very good, but I do know that all of their pets are very friendly because they've been handled from a young age, like my friend's mice. They literally crawl right into her hand. 

I also bought my first 2 rats from a local pet store cause I didn't know any better, and my third girl, Vivi, was from a PetCo (and after buying an animal from them for the first time I can honestly say I'm never shopping there again because they are RIDICULOUS) and I really regret buying her from there since I know it supports the mills, but I fell in love with her there and didn't want such a sweetheart to become snake food since she's so trusting of everything. She sniffed a cat at the vet's office right on the nose. lol. And Izzie was a rescue rat from a petco's adoption section when my friend was looking at mice, and I can say that after getting her I'm only going to (try to) get rats from shelters and such from now on because it's been such a rewarding experience.  She's pretty old (like 2 and a half years) and was living in a cage filled with her own poo and the entire tank (and her) stunk to high heaven. And of course I didnt' want to leave her there to die in a pet store that wouldn't even clean her cage. When she was brought in to be put up for adoption she had two different skin diseases, ring worm and something else, and was living alone in a tank and didn't even have a name so the lady that I was talking to before adopting gave her name to her. And she'd been there so long that they were thinking about dropping her adoption fee to $5 if no one adopted her. And that was for her (Plus her 2 months worth of medication to get rid of her illnesses), and the tank, and everything in it. Which was a food bowl and water bottle and a teracotta pot I threw out as soon as I got home because it stunk so bad. -_- Anyway... it's rewarding to know that I've given her a second chance to be in a loving household, so now I always tell people to check shelters and adoption centers for pets first, as well, even though I don't know how many people actually listen to me. lol.

As for how PetCo is ridiculous... The lady helping me look at the rats knew some of them were sick and they weren't taken to the vet. They wait until someone buys the animal and takes it home for at least 24 hours before they'll acknowledge the rat is sick and give it treatment. And then they make you return the rat so they can ship it off to a vet somewhere for two weeks before you get it back. And I don't know about you, but I don't want a vet treating my rat if I can't talk to them and get what they're doing run by me. Even though I'm not an expert on rat medication, I know a little bit and would at least like to know.

But anyway, I know there's no breeders by me (actually the nearest petco/petsmart is 45 minutes away as well so all I have are two awful tiny pet stores that sell feeders and one of them keeps a whole bunch of rats in lab cages where they can't even stand on their hind legs). I couldn't find any in the entire state of Iowa. Plus I don't have a car and rely on the bus system here so I wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. So while I regret giving my money to mills, I am happy that I gave my girls a good home and they didn't end up as snake food. I did just find out there's a shelter here though... so I'll have to check and see if they have rats ever.  Anyway, I think a lot of it is the factor of not having another place to get them, and not realizing that apparently shelters and breeders can be willing to drive a ways sometimes (I didn't think they would ). And like Delilahbrat said, it's really hard to look at the rats in a pet store kept in crappy conditions and knowing they're going to die there or get eaten and leave them. ;_; (Mice too for that matter)

Sorry for the novel.


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## TGQ (Dec 26, 2010)

Delilahbrat said:


> Those pet store pets need and deserve love- they didn't choose to be sold at a pet store, so why punish them? Pet store life is not a life an animal deserves. Then, there's the other side of it where the money is going to not-so-good places/people. It sucks to be torn like that.


It's not a matter of an animal not deserving love. It's a matter of a store not deserving your money, and another animal not deserving to suffer in that animal's place. You keep buying, that chain keeps going. You create a demand by buying that animal. Just google "Petco small animal mill" to see what kind of places you're giving your money to. That's the behind the scenes stuff. The moms that NEVER get homes or know love that spend their LIVES in little bins pumping out babies, because someone bought the last one left at a Petco or Pet Supplies Plus. Private breeders for stores are the exact same story, just on a smaller scale.

And while you're buying that animal from the pet store, what about the one at the rescue you could have bought? The one that's probably a second hand pet store rat anyway, that's been sitting at a rescue, waiting for a home for months?


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## Raturday (May 26, 2012)

Rosalynn said:


> They include cedar/pine shavings in starter kits that are too small for a pair of rats for heck sake! Not to mention the conditions they keep their rats (and other non-human animals) in. Clearly they don't know much about what animals actually need to have a high welfare while living in captivity and are more concerned about paying the bills.


Quite the fallacy you have here. You can't make blanket statements like that (and have them be accurate, anyways..). I happen to work for PetSmart, and can speak for my store specifically. We do not sell cedar or pine for rats (honestly I tell people not to buy cedar or pine for ANY animals) and we do not sell single rats unless someone already owns one to begin with. We keep our rats in our biggest cage and give them toys and carefresh and as much daily attention as we can. We clean out their cages and completely sanitize everything in their cage at least once a week. If we notice any health problems, we have an in store vet we take them to and put them in our sick room. We can also refuse sales to anyone that doesn't seem to be a fit person to take care of the animals, and I have before plenty of times. If someone doesn't want to buy a big cage for their rats, I tell them to take their business elsewhere. Yes, I am aware that the animals we have come from horrible breeders and I hate that part, and I've talked to managers about changing it, but corporations are hard to change when it comes to things like that. But at our store we treat the animals the best we can once they get to us. Also, I don't make commission from selling animals, and yes, people have to pay bills.

Of course, I would always recommend going to a rescue instead of buying from a chain store, but for some, it's the only option. And my main point here is: fallacious statements make me aggravated.


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## Mrm911 (Jul 6, 2012)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Mrm911: There are Tractor Supply Co. stores within 20-25 minutes of you. They sell large bags of bedding and have lots of supplies.


Yeah I just moved to Delmar, Delaware 3 days ago.... been busy introducing cats and dogs together


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## Delilahbrat (Jun 28, 2012)

TGQ said:


> It's not a matter of an animal not deserving love. It's a matter of a store not deserving your money, and another animal not deserving to suffer in that animal's place. You keep buying, that chain keeps going. You create a demand by buying that animal. Just google "Petco small animal mill" to see what kind of places you're giving your money to. That's the behind the scenes stuff. The moms that NEVER get homes or know love that spend their LIVES in little bins pumping out babies, because someone bought the last one left at a Petco or Pet Supplies Plus. Private breeders for stores are the exact same story, just on a smaller scale.
> 
> And while you're buying that animal from the pet store, what about the one at the rescue you could have bought? The one that's probably a second hand pet store rat anyway, that's been sitting at a rescue, waiting for a home for months?


To play devil's advocate:
Then, what becomes of the animals that aren't being bought? Yes, it is a vicious, vicious cycle, but you cannot tell me those animals don't deserve a loving home just because they are from a chain store. I mention it is a catch-22 situation because those animals do need love and a home just as much as a rescue, but the stores don't deserve the money. I know about animal mills, I DO educate myself on things. Personally, I don't want to sit and watch an animal be ignored and not given the attention or home it deserves. I've seen the toll it takes on an animal just leaving it there in a pet store, ignored, and had to rehabilitate her because of it, which literally took a ridiculous amount of blood, sweat and tears. It was pure **** trying to undo the damage caused by her being left in a store because nobody would buy her. It was also difficult coming to terms with how she was treated at the store and seeing her the way she was. When you go through something like that, you'd understand why I am torn about this subject and see it in a different way than you. Yes, rescues need homes. Yes, the mothers are treated horribly and it's heartbreaking to know what they go through. In a perfect world, that wouldn't ever happen. I wish that vicious cycle wouldn't happen, as do many people here, but seriously, what becomes of the rats that are passed over because they were unfortunately born in a situation they cannot control? Like I said, I've seen what not buying pets from a store can do, and no animal deserves that, regardless of how or where they were born.

People can look down their noses all they want at people who buy from pet stores (it seems like there are lots of attitudes toward people who buy from stores. Nobody is better than anyone else, regardless of where they buy their pets), but at least these animals are getting homes and love. Yes, it's horrible that the money is going somewhere it shouldn't, but like I said, those animals need homes, too. If you went through what I had to with my ferret, you would understand why I feel the way I do about pet store pets and wanting to give them homes. I'm sorry I don't think of the money aspect. Maybe I should since apparently my way of thinking makes me ignorant, uninformed, etc. according to many people. As an animal lover, and having the experience I did with a pet store pet, I'm going to give an animal a home regardless of whether it's rescued or bought at a store. People can judge all they want. I'm not saying I'm only going to purchase pet store pets or have only acquired pet store pets. I'm saying that animals deserve homes, too, regardless of where they come from.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Raturday said:


> Of course, I would always recommend going to a rescue instead of buying from a chain store, but for some, it's the only option. And my main point here is: fallacious statements make me aggravated.


Even if your store is amazing it is far far far not the norm. Pet stores #1 goal is money and not pet safety or care. Sure they generally want them healthy enough to be sold and not die- but is that good enough?

If we keep supporting the "as is" then it will never change, I think is the point. We have to fight to show that we expect and want better and the only real way to do that is to hit them where it counts and that is the wallet $$

I hate when people make excuses like it is the only option. I don't want to be mean but it is truly nothing but an excuse. We do not have to have rats as pets. It is a want not a need. We wouldn't tell someone that it is ok to feed their pets the cheapest crappiest food and let their pets suffer without seeing a vet because they can't afford it either. When you take on the responsibility of a pet you should do it 100% from every angle to know that you can give that pet the very best life. if you are putting your own wants/needs above the animals then perhaps it is best not to have it?

We all know that when we buy from a pet shop we are supporting mills. We are saving one life to have it replaced with 10 more. And the one from the shelter we could have saved instead. 

I understand 100% how difficult it is. I live in a small town. i don't drive. It sucks. People say they tried but I wonder how hard and how long? contact shelters and vets and let them know that if they hear anything to let you know asap. Put your name out there and bug the **** out of everyone lol.
I also fully admit I got my birds from petsmart. I got my rats from a local pet store, not a major chain but it is no better. It was impulse they were adorable and I didn't stop to think about it. I knew they were from mills yet I had zero clue what that actually meant at the time. I do not think we should hate on people for it, it happens. But we shouldn't lie or make excuses to make ourselves feel better about it. We should hopefully learn from our mistakes and the next time be more responsible.


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## Mrm911 (Jul 6, 2012)

It is mainly people don't know better or it is more conveinent. This year is the first time I have gotten small pets from places other than a pet store. My mouse was just because there was a chance to save a baby mouse from being realised into the wild. And the my rats I had to wait and I wanted females and the pet store either did not have them or they were housed with males. My other small pets I was to young to really realize and my mom didn't either and my dad just prefer me not to get any animals. And I am 14 now and really can't do anything at the moment about where we get supplies for our pets accept suggest places. I actually bought my giant bag of bedding I have now because I jumped on the oppretunity without asking my dad because it was not from a pet store and it was better quality than the bedding I had before.


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## TGQ (Dec 26, 2010)

I want to point out, that I do not blame someone who was truly ignorant. I've gotten rats from pet stores as a teenager. I think most owners start off there. I don't get mad at people for that. But I do educate them after that point, and if they refuse to get rats from other sources, I absolutely do blame them. Who is to blame for the fact that animals are being treated in such a manner?
Us.
The people who are buying them.
The people who see a sick animal at a store, and buy it instead of making an effort to cut funds to that business, or raise awareness, start a boycott, get photo evidence against them if they are indeed being cruel.
Buying a pet allows them to continue this behavior. You cannot buy them all, so you're just harming more animals. 
I think I've pretty much exhausted my point here.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Here's something a freind once wrote about 'rescueing' a rat from a horrible petstore, i personally really like it, it made me question a lot of the ways a saw things. Its definitley one to think about and decide where you want to sit. 



> I am a rat in a petshop.
> I am a soldier, fighting a war, holding the front line.
> For as long as I hold my position and occupy this awful tank,
> the regime that created me will not get any more orders from this shop.
> ...


I've got to say it doesn't make saving a rat from a horrible situation any less good for that poor little one, but it explains why some of us choose not to do that, because to save one may well curse more rats to the same fate. It is a very personal decision though, and not one that i could ever criticise someone for making, turning away from a rat that is in obvious suffering is very hard. What i favour is trying to persuade the petshop to give them up for free and / or reporting them to the RSPCA or local council (i'm sure theres a US alternative), often though nothign will be done until a lot of complaints are made.


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## Delilahbrat (Jun 28, 2012)

TGQ said:


> The people who see a sick animal at a store, and buy it instead of making an effort to cut funds to that business, or raise awareness, start a boycott, get photo evidence against them if they are indeed being cruel.


Correct me if I misread your statement, but was I "indeed being cruel" for giving my ferret a loving home and the love and attention she needed? More power to you if you can honestly see an animal that obviously needs help and pass it up just because it was unfortunate enough to be sold at a pet store, but don't put those of us who want to take care of a sick and/or neglected animal down/ "blame" us because we chose to give an animal a life it deserves, despite knowing the pet store situation. It was more cruel to her to let her waste away in that store. To me, that animal deserves just as much care as a sick rescue and think it's wrong to punish that animal to a horrible life wasting away in a pet store, probably dying a slow, painful death due to illness and not being cared for properly- which is pretty darn cruel, if you ask me. Just as cruel, if not more than the quality of "life" of a breeder rat. I get your point, trust me, I think it's awful where the money goes and how mills are run, but I guess the animal lover in me can't watch a neglected animal suffer like my ferret did. Like I've said, if you had any idea what that experience was like, you'd see it from both sides, as well and why I'm so torn on this issue. Yes, it's a vicious, vicious cycle, but a sick or neglected animal deserves a home. Again, it's catch-22. Animals, especially those who are sick and/or neglected need homes regardless of whether they are rescues or in a pet store. 
I just don't see how animal lovers can just be like "oh well, you need to be sacrificed" to a sick and /or neglected animal just because the poor thing was unfortunate enough to be born in a not-so ideal situation. I understand the money and not wanting to support mills, but cannot understand how someone would deny a sick/neglected animal a good, loving home just because it's not from a rescue. A sick and neglected animal is a sick and neglected animal, period.
I think I've exhausted my point, as well. I think regardless, I'm going to be looked down upon and seen as "cruel" because I would rather give a sick/neglected animal a home regardless of where it came from, or because I'm making "excuses" as to why I would purchase from a store.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I love that, Isamurat! So apt.

If any of our Canadian friends can confirm this for me, I'd be grateful, but something very similar here happened in the animal cruelty world involving stores in Canada. I belong to another group of concerned pet owners, which are fish keepers. Walmart is notorious for the conditions in which they keep their fish and the harmful practices in which they obtain their stock. I am told that, through boycott and carefully-worded letters, Canadian fish keepers were able to shut Walmart's fish department down in their country.

The fact of the matter is that, here in the US, we have the power to do much the same to the live mammal industry. It's not about being better than other people, or looking down noses. It's about realizing that the power of supply and demand is in our hands to do with as we wish.


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## Lex (Mar 22, 2012)

*Only option for many*

I got my rats second hand, but I can't blame anyone for getting theirs from the major chains, especially if there are no ratteries or small rodent rescues around. Like where I live.
The small pet shops have all gone out of business, and the AHS doesn't always have rats (and I can't blame anyone for wanting young rats vs. old rats, considering their short lifespan). 

I know it's a frustrating issue, but, it's not likely to change. I volunteer for a dog and cat recue (one of many in my area) as a foster, and everybody knows it (they have wonderful dogs of all ages and many breeds)...and it crushes me a little inside , every time a friend or relative buys a dog or cat from a breeder or petshop. I understand your cause, but you can't let it get to you too much.


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## SillydogTheGreat (Mar 27, 2012)

To be honest I bought my Castiel at a Petsmart. I was in there stocking up on supplies and wasn't intending on buying any animals there, just bedding and stuff. I happened to walk by the small animal section and I kid you not when I look into the rat tank just to see what their rats looked like, Castiel saw me and came over and pressed his little hands up against the glass. I swear he looked me straight in the eye and we made a connection. I asked the employee if I could see him and as soon as he went into my hands he started licking me and snuggled against my chest. 

Now tell me if that happened to you would you have just let him go?

Dean was born in my house, my roommate had a female rat who escaped her cage and mated with Castiel and they had a litter of 8 pups. I ended up keeping Dean and I found great homes for the rest of the babies. 

I eventually want to get more ratties and I fully intend on adopting those. I'm actually looking into being a rat foster for my area just because it looks like the Mainely Rattery needs some help haha. 

But tl;dr, Castiel is a Petsmart baby.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Impatience also seems to play a big role in it. Why wait for a rescue to get rats in when you could go to Petsmart today and pick up some cute babies?

Yes, I have bought rats from a pet store (never feeders, though). I have even (accidentally) bought rats from an awful BYB. No, I will never do it again. I have learned my lesson and the other rats that replaced the ones I bought paid for it dearly.

We can only educate people to the truth and give them other options. Humans are ignorant and impulsive and we will probably never see that change in our lifetime.


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## iHayleyNorris (Jul 28, 2012)

Well, I actually work for one of these type of stores and I know for a fact that we keep our animals in top condition. We don't let anyone out of the store with one of our animals if they can't prove that they have the correct information and supplies to take care of the specific animals. Unfortunately we do not sell our rats as pets, but rather as food for our customers' snakes; however, I fell in love with one of these so-called "feeder rats," named him Splinter, and brought him home. He is one of the coolest and most affectionate rats you will ever meet and you would never guess that he was once destined for the dinner plate. I personally see that all of our animals, even our feeder rats are well taken care of on a daily basis and that people are well-prepared to give whatever animal they adopt a safe, loving, comfortable forever home. So I guess it really does depend on what store you are talking about and the quality of the employees therein. I take pride in and love my job.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

It has less to do with the manner in which stores are keeping the animals and more to do with where the animals are actually coming from. If you worked at the rodent mill, you'd have a different story.


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## elliriyanna (Jul 27, 2011)

Depends on the individual store our petsmarts are great and have all the supplies I need. They also sell their rats for a decent amount so they wont be feeders whereas petco sells their animals as feeders


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

SillydogTheGreat said:


> To be honest I bought my Castiel at a Petsmart. I was in there stocking up on supplies and wasn't intending on buying any animals there, just bedding and stuff. I happened to walk by the small animal section and I kid you not when I look into the rat tank just to see what their rats looked like, Castiel saw me and came over and pressed his little hands up against the glass. I swear he looked me straight in the eye and we made a connection. I asked the employee if I could see him and as soon as he went into my hands he started licking me and snuggled against my chest.
> 
> Now tell me if that happened to you would you have just let him go?


It’s one of the reasons why I get my rat supplies from online petshops and such now, less temptation, plus your not supporting the places that sell animals. Saying that when I used to go in I have found some lovely interactive babies and played with them through the glass, but I know that I can’t have them. I’ve always been pretty good at limiting myself like that, like now I’m down from my ideal group size of 6 to 4, I know another lad has only a short time left with us and my youngest rats are getting on for 9 months now. It’s about the time I want kittens again, but I am holding out because I know (hopefully tonight) a girl is getting mated up and in roughly 3 months time I could well have little babies from her installed in my group. The wait will be well worth it, I know her (she was born here actually), I know the dad (hes brother to one of my lads), I know her extended family (her dad was my heart rat). I also know she is loved and her babies will be loved from the moment of birth and that her and he babies are part of a project aimed at extending ratty lifespan. All of that makes it a truly magical experience. I might miss out on a lovely rat in the pet shop but I can get a wonderful rat with all the supporting reasons why by waiting a bit longer. I am going to have to travel half way across the country to get these babies assuming they are born and all goes to plan, but the 5 hour drive each way and overnight stop is a small price to pay.

I must say I used to be more on the fence about the whole pet shop issue, I hated rodent farms but thought it wasn’t that bad as after all that’s where my first rats came from (back in the 80’s there weren’t really many breeders or any rescues in the uk). Then I had 2 experiences with my local chain store. It treats it’s rats pretty well as these places go, there kept on biocatolet (paper cat litter) they have toys, a house and the food and water is always there and well topped up. They are kept in tanks which isn’t great. Overall though as these places go they do seem to care about their rats and have some basic knowledge. Then I went in one day and noticed a big agouti lad I’d been keeping an eye on (he was on his own) suddenly had 5 little Siamese friends, I didn’t think much of it as they were all asleep but about 2 weeks later I went back, the little ones were moving, they were definitely girls, worse there were 2 missing (probably sold), I told the petshop and said I could take the girls as rescues and make sure they had a good home, but they wouldn’t give them to me. They said they’d take them off sale. The next day they were still on sale but the agouti lad had gone. I wrote to head office and they made the store take them off sale, a couple of months later there were Siamese and agouti babies for sale. I know that somewhere there’s an owner who had a surprise litter and it was something the petshop caused, I only hope they gave them the stuff they needed to raise the babies, no doubt they bought them back for a tiny price and sold them on for more.

The other one that really finished it off for me was a newspaper article I read. Apparently someone had gone into the store, bought 2 rats there and put them in a microwave. I needn’t say any more other than they were charged with animal cruelty. It reinforced for me that petshops don’t have any way of affecting who goes away with the animals. They can ask questions and make sure that the person apparently has a cage and such but a sick person can still walk off the street, have a look round the store to pick up some basics and fool a pet shop into letting him buy animals to hurt. I know theoretically the same could happen with breeder rats and rescues, but the waiting and the application process should put most of the worst people off (you should see my application form lol, it’s getting on for 30 questions long and I expect answers to be more than a couple of words long, plus most applications go back and forward a few times quit questions), it honestly terrifies me to think about how easily people can get animals to hurt if they want.


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## binkyhoo (Sep 28, 2008)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Canadian fish keepers were able to shut Walmart's fish department down in their country.


And there are all so areas in Canada where keeping domestic rats as pets is deemed illegal.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm just a little bit disturbed how parts of this thread seem to have taken a very dark turn... Responsible rat owners are valued and cherished members of our community regardless of where they got their rats from, as far as I understand it. And ratties are just as wonderful and beloved regardless where they were born, where they were raised and where they were bought. If anyone has a bone to pick with me or my rats based on where my girls came from they can pm me, what I have to say to them might not be suitable for public viewing. My half wild, my rex and my big pudgy common food rat all came out of a snake food bin and they all became highly trained shoulder rats. They have entertained and befriended hundreds of children and adults, and they are ambassadors of good will and love for their entire species. Most importantly they are cherished and loved by my family and they return our affection. I'm not saying my rats are better than anyone else's rats, but I don't like it when people who don't know better criticize my girls and I'm darn sure I'm not going to let another rat fancier put them down. 

So don't tread on my ratties!!!


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

No one is criticizing anyone's rats. I'm not sure where that idea came from.

The criticism is with business practices and the support thereof.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not sure we can criticize people that support rat mills and pet shops without pointing fingers at each other. About half of the people here throwing stones live in glass houses. They have rats, cages, food, toys or other products in their home bought from a pet shop and the other half that don't have anything in their homes from the evil-for-profit pet industry are throwing stones at their neighbors who do live in glass houses.

Now we all can hate the animal-for-profit industry, and we can all agree that its great to support responsible breeders and rescues... but the moment we start picking on rats from pet shops or feeder bins or even wild type or half breeds and the people that love them we are only shooting each other in the foot. Rat owners have plenty of enemies out there... we don't need to count each other among them. In my opinion its easy to spot the good guys and gals... their the ones with ratties! Lets not make it more complicated than that.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Again, no one is picking on the rats.

My Ivan and Asa came from a pet shop down the street, as you know. I do not group all pet shops (read: not big-box) as the same. Some mom-n-pop shops are very much against the industry of the mills themselves and breed their own rats for health and temperament, though not usually color and type, unlike "actual" breeders working to perfect those those things.

And, of course, everyone starts somewhere. That includes any original animals and supplies. (As far as I go, I do not own anything from the big-box shops and I encourage others to do the same through online sales and stores that do not sell live animals from mills or otherwise harmfully obtained.)

I absolutely do not look down on anyone that bought their rats from a big-box store. Again, I'm not sure where that idea came from.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

Buying and not buying from a petstore is a 2 way street. While it is true, that shelter rats should go to a loving home as well there are a few shelters that do not put down their animals. However, when it comes to petstores, if the rat is not bought it's grown into a "large" or "medium" rat for snake owners. I don't know how many stores or what stores do this, but many times if the rat is not bought as a feeder or as a pet it is frozen for food later on. When buying snake food, many stores will actually suggest frozen. The new shipment of rats then come in to replace the other ones. Also, when it comes to rats, it's not only those people who want them as pets that purchase them. Many snake owners purchase their food from petstores as well. Either way those rats are going to be sold no matter what, whether it's as a pet, feeder, or frozen. Snakes aren't vegetarians, and owners have to get their food from somewhere.


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## Flashygrrl (Feb 8, 2012)

OK, I'm one of those people that WILL NOT buy pets in the petshop. However, I do usually get my supplies from there. Why? Because if I were to order everything I need _when_ I need it online, I would be paying a bleeping fortune in shipping fees. And don't anyone dare to tell me to stockpile it...even though we just moved to a much bigger place I only have so much room and I don't want one thing going bad while I'm waiting for the others to run out. Cages yes, I will buy online because quite frankly the cost ends up being cheaper especially if you can score free shipping. Besides, I really don't think that any petstore would really see their stock running out and think "Hey, we need more pets to sell". They'd just be restocking the shelves.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

CagedBirdSinging, I'm not saying you were picking on rats from pet shops or their owners... you just did such a wonderful job of boiling down the darker side of this thread to it's basic component when you said (and I'll paraphrase) "criticize... pet shops and those that support them". The "those that support them" includes most of us. And in fact with the price and amount of rats we actually buy, buying rats at pet shops doesn't actually support them. Between food, supplies, floor space costs, transportation costs, heat, air conditioning and labor costs, big box pets shops often actually lose money on small animals. You don't actually support them until you buy your dry and durable goods at that pet shop. If you buy a $200.00 cage from most pet shops, I'm pretty sure the manager will throw in a few rats free without too much haggling. 

Still... the danger of this kind of a thread is that it's likely to become divisive. And both you and I are on the "wrong side" of the divide. With the better rats being purchased by the better rat owners from select breeders or rescues and lesser rats being purchased by lesser owners from elsewhere. There are multiple comments on this thread already made by people defending their decision to purchase pet shop rats (some before they knew better) or even people that work at pet shops who are trying their best to make life better for rats in pet shops. These kind and good people shouldn't need to defend themselves, they are an important part of our community.

You know I'm the first one to advise people not to buy older unsocialized rats from chain or other pet shops, but you also know I'm the first one to recommend healthy young or socialized rats from anywhere. 

There's a fine line between criticizing the way chain pet shops do business and going after those that shop or work there. I agree that it's valid personal choice not to do business with chain pet shops or buy rats from mills, but when we expand that to value judgments on each other and each other's rats we run the risk of unfairly alianating a significant and important part of our community.

It's not that I believe that people shouldn't express their opinions; they should! But it's just as important to see where some opinions are leading, hopefully before they get where I believe most people don't want them to go. Division and descrimination are insidius evils, they start innocently enough with good intentions.... rat mills and pet shop practices are bad can very easily become rats from rat mills and pet shops and rat owners that buy them or work there are lesser or even bad too.

Lastly... give it some thought, you've read enough threads here, are we really that far away from a thread titled "Inferior pet shop rats and their evil owners who support the perverse industry"? Are we really that far from a sentence that starts like "Some of my best friends own pet shop rats, and shop at BigBoxPetCo but they are..."?

It's great to support responsible breeders and rescues, I do... It's understandable to be opposed to rat mills and big box pet shops that don't care for their charges properly or have bad policies, I am... But we all have to be vigilent that this doesn't become a value judgement against certain rats and their owners. Even though I dislike the industry that spawned and sold them, I love my ratties and I give them the best care I can even if I have to purchase oxbow products from an overpriced pet shop I really dislike. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and let people criticize me or worse yet pick on my ratties. I've been in other organizations and hobbies that were elitist and became stratafied and eventually exclusionary, now is the time for rat owners to make their stand and stick together before retrograde logic tears us apart. My ratties are smarter than your honor student (pound for pound), and they are just as good as everyone elses rats... regardless of where they came from. And people that care for their rats by buying the best products that they can afford are not bad people no matter where they buy their supplies or even their rats. 

I don't mean to be argumentative here or sound beligerant, but I believe this is a very important issue and one that can and most likely has already really hurt some feelings.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I have lost count of how many times I've said, and run out of how many ways to say, that no one here thinks that anyone's rats are better than anyone else's, or that any rats owners here are better than others. That is simply not true.

The only finger I, personally, am pointing at is at the big-box pet industry and the companies behind it. Not anyone else, and certainly not anyone here. You can rearrange my words to make it seem as though I was saying something different, but that does not change the fact of the matter. The slippery slope fallacy holds no ground here.

No one is trying to draw any lines in the sand between this wonderful community. Both fact and opinions were stated, as is the purpose of a forum.


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## aripatsim (Jul 26, 2012)

I got my first rats from a pet store a month ago and it was before I knew all this about the mills. I've heard things, but was ignorant about the terrors of it. I will never buy another pet store rat and that hurts me because I want to "save them" and bring them home somewhere will they'd get everything they'll ever need such as food, toys, love, medical care. But I can't pump anymore money into the system. I hope the pets that are in the stores go to great, loving homes with people who are knowledgeable about their new pet. I wish we could do away with these awful mills. If someome wants a rat, hamster, rabbit, or what have you then go to a loving breeder.

I still love my rats to death and always will. I provided the mill with more money  but on the bright side (the only bright side lol) I took two rats who probably weren't getting everything they need and they were able to come home to a loving, compassionate, and knowledgeable owner who will love them very much


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

I work at a Mom n pop shop. We had too change our private breeder because he was inbreeding the animals. We never get rats because the owner knows we couldn't give them proper attention they deserve. As well as most animals you can find anywhere. Most ofthe animals we do get in like ferrets and rabbits were all second hand animals that they no longer want or want too care for anymore.my rats came too me second handed and all in bad shape....


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

A responsible breeder should inbreed to some extent (though not without regular outcrosses), otherwise they are effectively playing a genetic lottery. Inbreeding is a tool, when used properly with historical records to give guidence it can be used to select for improvements such as health or lifespan. When allowed to run free with no control or records you get more health problems and deformities. 

Sorry i doubt you meant it like that, but there are lots of myths about inbreeding out there, yet it is responsible for a lot of good too, here in the UK its even been used to almost completely get rid of the issues with high whites and megacolon (its pretty rare over here) as an example.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

99% of the rats produced by commercial breeders go to the snake food or lab industry. If more were being sold as pets that might actually improve the way rats are bred, raised and handled. Markets adapt to their consumers. If a commercial breeder could make more money by giving rats better care they would. In fact since the pet rat industry has picked up, I've seen a marked improvement in available commercial rats.

Leaving the pet shops to only supply snake owners is actually more likely to harm more rats than inspire an industry to raise their standards in animal care. If people didn't buy pet gold fish, there would only be feeder goldfish left. And I can guarantee you the gold fish wouldn't get better care if they were only being sold as food.

It's easy to see where good intentions can go badly awry here. I think that the worst message we can send to the rat industry is that we aren't interested in their product as pets. They will have no motivation to change. 

It's not a matter of where you buy your rats, in fact I think it's a great thing to save a feeder rat from a hungry snake. If you want to put your money where your mouth is... tell your pet shop that you won't buy their pet supplies, cages, foods and dry goods there if they don't change the way they order and handle their small animals. They actually lose money or at best break even on pet rats, but if they lose cage, food or dry good business this will hurt them... It will hurt them even more if they lose your dog, fish and cat business. If you want to punish your local uncaring pet shop, go ahead and save a $3.00 - $12.00 rat from a snake there, but buy your $200.00 cage elsewhere. Save a rat and punish the store at the same time. 

Yes, as consumers we can bring about change. Make it clear to your local pet shop that you aren't going to buy your dog food there if their rats don't get better care and that you consider their small animal care standards important in your choice of where you buy your new 325 gallon salt water aquarium set up. (think $3,000.00 complete sale stand to fish, plus $50 to $100.00 per month for food and supplies) Or tell them you can't buy your $1800.00 dog from a store that mistreats rats. That kind of a message will change the way a store does business.

My local pet shop was very accomodating to me because they were happy to see a rat go to a good home, (some of their staff own pet rats) but they made if very clear to me that they just don't get enough call for rats as pets to even bother to order a single special one, if they sold 100 pet rats per week instead of 100 feeder rats per week, their policies would change fast.

By not buying rats from, but otherwise supporting chain pet shops by buying their high profit items, we are not going to change the world, only guarantee that it won't change. 

My ratties were rescued from the snake food bin and they're great! I'm very proud of them and I'm blessed everyday because I rescued them. I have no guilt whatsoever for having paid $2.49 each to support the pet industry, even though at least one came from a rat mill. I however do feel rotten about buying rat food from the big box chain store that carries it around here. But if it's good for my girls, I'll do what I have to do for now, but I'm talking to a more responsible store about ordering it for me in the mean time.


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## Zilla (May 9, 2012)

I'm just going to add this because I see people saying that pet store employees pick up rats by their tails all the time... I work for Petco, and the company had it's annual manager's summit last week. They did a whole workshop on how to properly handle and care for rats. They even posted a copy of the guidelines in the stores and on the break room computers for employees to see. They covered a lot of things, but the thing they emphasized the most was NEVER pick a rat up by the tail and they went into detail about degloving and how rat's tails are a very important appendage (for regulating temperature and balance etc). So if you see someone picking up a rat by the tail in a Petco store (or any pet store), tell the manager or call corporate. There's absolutely no excuse for it and the person could (and should) be fired.

Overall the company has been cracking down on the treatment of rats specifically in the stores (reptiles, too). They ARE starting to see that a lot of people keep rats as pets.

Yes, I work at Petco, and I hate where we get our animals. I don't agree with it. But I do love my job - I love talking to and educating pet owners - and my co-workers and I make sure that every animal in our store is well taken care of while it's with us regardless of where it came from.


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## DoubleDimey (Apr 6, 2012)

Personally I'm a fan of my petsmart. The truth is there are rarely any shelters here that have rats up for adoption. I like the way my petsmart cares for their animals so I don't see a huge problem?


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Jul 24, 2012)

The problem isn't really how Petsmart cares for the animals but how their vendor does. Petsmart does care for their animals. I've gotten gerbils there in the past (before I really knew what the conditions were where they came from) and they're friendly and healthy. However, the place that Petsmart gets their pets from is basically like a rodent/bird/reptile version of a puppymill and everyone knows how awful puppymills are... why would a small animal mill be any better?

I got two of my rats from a person at the flea market who breeds rats for pets and snake feeders. I got my other 6 rats from craigslist because the lady was about to have a baby and wasn't going to have time for them. I didn't get them from an actual breeder because there aren't any in my state and I didn't want to drive to Georgia to get them.


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## bobbiegirl23 (Aug 20, 2012)

I worked for a petco here in illinois for 5 years. I met the breeders of the rats that were sold when I got to go on a work trip and got to see the conditions that they were kept in. I will not say that all petstore are the same way however I will say that the breeders did not breed sick (all pets were checked for hereditary conditions before being bred) or old animals, proper caging and vet care was preformed. any pets that are in the store were handled properly and very well cared for. Diet and housing was adequate for what a temporary situation was provided as well. If a rat became sick or injured it was removed from the rest and a vet was contacted immediately. If an animal became to large for its enclosure it was removed and put into a larger enclosure. Do I believe that all petcos are this way no do i believe all the rat breeding conditions are ok no what i do believe is that like everything in life it is surcomstantial. We took very well care of the pets we had in that store and even though corprate chose what we sold we were very knowledgeable and would steer customers to the better healtier choices that we carried. yes as with every pet an experienced breeder or rescue would be a better choice even when the pets are well cared for however please do not judge every pet store the same. I know for a fact there are far worse backyard breeders than the petco i worked in.


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## fluffy470 (Feb 24, 2012)

We don't generally support national chain pet stores. But we had a little pet store down the street from our house that was family owned and all their animals had great temporary homes. Then petco came and bought them out. Honestly I think the place is a little bit nicer. They put in a little dog treat bar (which my rats thoroughly enjoy) and the family still runs it but their technically owned by petco and they have a petco sign. The animals still have great cages and they use care fresh bedding instead of pine shavings (Ikr) and the employees are all friendly and they Handel and socialize their animals a lot . So I am not sure how the petco in your area works but mine is really great!


Sent from my iPad using PG free
Got Rats?


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## IOVERATS (Aug 25, 2012)

I didn't realise so many people on here were supporting pet shops! I'm putting it down to ignorance because many people just don't do the research required to own rats or other animals for that matter. I think that people should be knowledgable about these places because it really isn't good to be supporting such horrible places, even though it is 99% unintentional it still shouldn't happen. I will never ever buy a rat at a pet shop, also unfortunatly people don't realise that rehoming centres and breeders are nearer than they think, so the go to the pet shop. And also, because you have to sometimes go on a waiting list for a breeder, people don't want to wait so they go to a pet shop because they sell them instantly to anyone who walks through the door asking for rats. Pet shops have no care over who they sell pets to, they just want profit. My local pet shop is Pets @ home (some of you may of heard of it) and they have the same two dumbo rats in for the past 6 months, and they just hide in their tunnels huddled up together not coming out at all, they sneeze a lot because they are using SAWDUST and everyone knows that it's too dusty for rats, and one of them is producing porphyrin (I can't spell it sorry, you should know what I mean though) and when I asked them why they had sawdust in the cage and why they thought it was okay for them to be sneezing, they said we've researched loads of our let's and I think you'll find that sawdust is perfectly okay for them, and we all sneeze randomly sometimes, don't we, so it's normal. I got really cross and told them that, that isn't normal and I then got told to leave the shop because I 'shouted' at the staff I may have raised my voice a little but not to the extent of shouting! From them on I promised myself I wouldn't ever buy another pet from them (I bought all my hamsters from them and they've all been lovely but I wouldn't ever dream of buying rats there) People need to learn to find a breede or a rehoming shelter who is actually selling and breeding quality pets!


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## never-sleep (Mar 3, 2012)

I have to say I am personally not a fan of Petco. I have never been to petsmart but, I have heard anything bad about it either. I got my first small animal from petco. It was a ginger and whire teddy bear hamster named Pete. I loved that hamster and he was the sweetest thing. I was about seven when I got him and went to the petstore with my parents. I remember seeing the large tank that housed at least thirty hamsters. While they seemed happy I still reemeber seeing to dead ones in the cage.
I had Pete only a short while before he died of wet tail. I was heart broken. Since then I am a Petco hater. I have only gotten one animal other that Pete from petco. A guniea pig named Genny (original, I know). I was alergic to her so I didn't have her long (we long enough for me) before I had to give her away. She was the only good thing that I ever ascociate with Petco. Other than her I have nothing but disgust for the conditions of their animals.

The only petstore I go to now is a small family owned shop. The workers love animals and they do a lot for strays and neglected animals. Last week I had the pleasure of meetinf a nine year old tortiseshell calico named Swift who was being kept at the store. She was so scared and they were waiting until she was used to people before they gave her way. That's right she was free. Unfortunately my parents say I have enough cats and the pretty girl couldn't come home with me


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## IOVERATS (Aug 25, 2012)

Yeah, I have an amazing pet shop that only sells supplies and they have LOADS of things in there, they used to sell animals but they decided to stop because they couldn't offer them the space they needed nor the attention and individual needs of each animal in turn so they thought it would be better. And so far I've bought lots of stuff in there for my dog and hamsters (and soon to be rats  yayyy) it's better to support let shops who don't sell animals as they lose out on money through no animal sales. So that's what I do


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## Lovely Rats (May 14, 2012)

I second Petsmart supporting! I've been to all the SPCA rescues in NJ, and not one had a single rat! I looked online for breeders, and the links were all old/broken. I checked out some small, family-owned pet stores, and their rats were all snake food and none were healthy. I even checked craigslist for the whole tristate area, and the only rats were very old or infants. 

I ended up going to Petsmart, and I was pleasantly surprised! The staff were helpful and knowledgeable, and some owned rats themselves. The housing was ok, they were in a large tank (not the kind for hamsters, but like for guinea pigs/chinchillas) with a plastic second level and a ramp. There was one wheel, and some carrots and bok choi that one of the employees had given them. They had a water bottle and a dish with dry mix food. They had an igloo and a Snak-Shak for hideouts. The rats themselves looked good, sniffinf the air, bright eyes, playing with each other, etc. 

Don't go around saying people who buy their pets from Petsmart are "ignorant" or "don't care", because you don't know their situation. Where else was I supposed to get rats from? Think before you slander. My Petsmart didn't even get their rats from a rat mill! Theirs came from an out-of-state rattery.


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## Jfaye92 (Mar 16, 2012)

Though i don't agree with the way animals are treated and breed in most of your big name pet shops sometimes we have no other choice. I live in a very rural area where there are 0 rat breeders ( petsmart is actually 2 hours away) so in the case of my sweet Yeri ( my first rattie) i really had no other choice. I mean i could'v found a breeder but the closest one ( that does'nt breed thier rats for food ) was in another state. At the time i was in no finical postion to spend that much money on gas and refused to have a pet shipped to me from another state. I bought yeri as a young rattie at Petsmart. I don't agree with breeding farms. Infact they turn my stomach. I'm only saying some people have no other choice. If u love ratties and really want/ need them in your life you make do with what your dealt.


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## never-sleep (Mar 3, 2012)

Jfaye92 said:


> Though i don't agree with the way animals are treated and breed in most of your big name pet shops sometimes we have no other choice. I live in a very rural area where there are 0 rat breeders ( petsmart is actually 2 hours away) so in the case of my sweet Yeri ( my first rattie) i really had no other choice. I mean i could'v found a breeder but the closest one ( that does'nt breed thier rats for food ) was in another state. At the time i was in no finical postion to spend that much money on gas and refused to have a pet shipped to me from another state. I bought yeri as a young rattie at Petsmart. I don't agree with breeding farms. Infact they turn my stomach. I'm only saying some people have no other choice. If u love ratties and really want/ need them in your life you make do with what your dealt.


I completely agree with you. Although I despise Petco I would be willing to give Petsmart a chance. I have never been to it but, have heard nothing but good things about it. And it seems like southern states have WAY less breeders than northern states. My first rat, and only rat at the moment, is from a small pet shop (the family owned one mentioned in my first post).


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## Jfaye92 (Mar 16, 2012)

never-sleep said:


> I completely agree with you. Although I despise Petco I would be willing to give Petsmart a chance. I have never been to it but, have heard nothing but good things about it. And it seems like southern states have WAY less breeders than northern states. My first rat, and only rat at the moment, is from a small pet shop (the family owned one mentioned in my first post).


Mhm, the petsmart I got yeri from was both clean and friendly. They seemed like they really cared about the animals. Also they had one person assighned to a certian animal section. I thought that was really nice. I also had to sighn a form saying that i understood how to care for a rat. They have one more than one occasion gave me helpful advise without me asking. I really just like the service.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So I stopped by my big box chain store today... they had about 3 fancys and 3 dumbo's all males... store policy says one store gets males another gets girls... The boys were all about 5 months old, maybe six or seven at the outside. One according to the girl employee had been there forever... it was a black caped. Basically she agreed the rats were coming in too old and staying around too long... and store policy ran against playing with the small animals... Honestly, I think she was a little afraid of the ratties, She wouldn't admit that people were having trouble socializing the rats they sold, but went so far as to say that's the purchasor's responsibility (read as problem).

I couldn't help myself, I've made enough comments here and decided to put my fingers where my mouth was for better or worse so I had her open a cage and I reached in and found a grey capped dumbo interested in my hand, it sniffed, nibbled (likely first time it had smelled or tasted a human hand up close, but he wasn't agressive, so I scooped him up. The young lady seemed just a little surprised when I pointed out to her that just a little attention would go a long way and that they would more than likely sell more rats if they could handle them or put them on their shoulders. She said there was no way they would have time to train a rat to ride on someone's shoulder. So I plunked the boy on my shoulder and walked him around the store while we talked, it attracted a bit of attention from the other employees. Yes the rat had been there too long, it was way too happy to go back into it's cage, but after it was back it came to the glass to try to catch another ride, so it was far from a lost cause...

Now all of you folks know I cheated... I know rats, and I picked the best one for the demonstration. The red eyed tan caped dumbo, would have been OK, but the black capped dumbo never ventured out of it's house to even give me a sniff, my demo might have not gone nearly as well with him, but despite what I originally thought, there was at least one rat in the store that would have made a fine pet for someone with experience without any real hard work socializing it. 

So although my primary objections still stand, the rats are too old and they aren't handled, and likely some are screwed up, but there are definately some good ones to be had there if you know how to pick them. They all looked in reasonable to good health. I'm not completely changing my opinion, even a friendly unsocialized rat can be challenging to a newbie at 5 to 7+ months old and I'm sure at that age, there are turkeys in among the ratties that wouldn't make for easy pets for anyone, but if the rattie is friendly and manageable at the store, I suppose someone could find a friend there, "caveat emptor".


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## Rosalynn (Aug 3, 2012)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> or that any rats owners here are better than others. That is simply not true.


I beg to differ there. I bet there's a huge variance in how much effort people put into caring for their rats on this forum. Someone's standard for good rat welfare might be lower than someone else's. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but just pointing out a thought that's probably true. 

It doesn't matter what you get from a pet store that sells animals, you are supporting the company. Let me repeat, *you are supporting the company.* You are giving them money to continue on in their ways. And yes I understand there are good Pet Smarts out there, but they are all a chain and if there is even _one_ bad one, you shouldn't support them at all. Pet stores that sell pets should not exist. You should only be able to get animals from breeders (actual breeders of course) and shelters. Getting a pet is not a shopping experience, you are adopting an animal that you are responsible for. If in some world we can get all pet stores to get their pets from reputable breeders and have a shelter, then by all means pet stores can be in business. But until that happens you are ignorant if you think it's okay to buy your feed from a pet store. It's all about the big picture, not on an individual basis all the time. 

Yes if a rat in a pet store looks deep into your eyes and tells you to take it home, I forgive you for getting it (not that you probably care). Even I have a heart and might too. But to resist the temptation of getting pulled in, stay out of the stores. You shouldn't be buying anything from them for any animal so you shouldn't need to go in. I understand situations where non-animal-selling stores go out of business, there are probably a hundred other crazy situations where I would be fine if someone bought something from an animal-selling pet store. But overall they should not be supported. 

And if you can't find a rat from a shelter or an accidental litter, too bad. Having an animal is a privilege and you're out of luck. Find another thing to give your love too until you can come across one. Or just don't have them at all. You are being selfish getting an animal from a pet store on a whim because you aren't looking at the big picture. You just want a cute rat now. 

I know this is blunt and not sugar coated, but it's my opinion and I'm tired of people who love animals supporting companies who want to make money. I made some generalizations I know, but I don't feel like putting in brackets all the fine print. You're smart, you can figure it out.


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## elliriyanna (Jul 27, 2011)

The problem with your plan is we would have to neglect our pets to do that ... there is only one store in my area with no pets and they don't sell anything I need for my small animals. Sometimes its all you can do. Plus as I understand you are supporting the store but you are not directly supporting their selling animals ... we have to do what we must to feed our pets if there was no oetsmart here my cat and rats and such would be eating pet food from the grocery store which does not benefit anyone


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## Roxy&Spot (Aug 31, 2012)

Cupcake&Candy said:


> I, for one, am an avid animal lover. Every pet I own has come from the city shelter or a local rescue. I myself volunteer at 3 local rescues & weeekend adoptathons. When I decided to own rats again, I tried THREE separate times to adopt from the local mouse/rat rescue. Each time the manager had an excuse: 1) I had to adopt the female dumbo with *all her cagemates also *(at $20 each) - not allowed to chose which rats I wanted. 2) fell in love with two little males, but *couldn't adopt those either* she said because one had an eye infection. 3) fell in love with two young females, but she said *I couldn't have them either* because her husband like them too much. THIS WAS RIDICULOUS!! ???
> 
> Secondly, I could find absolutely no breeders/ratteries in the state of New Mexico much less my Albuquerque area. I had no choice but to purchase them. I went to my local PetSmart and found both the manager & salespeople very knowledgeable about rodents. The manager held & kissed each critter we looked at, giving me information on diet, bedding and toys. He even directed me on how to make handmade playgrounds for them! The employees I dealt with were absolutely appalled by the _pet mills for profit _policies, but they themselves provide love & attention to all their animals.
> 
> Lastly, I've had Cupcake, Peppermint & Candy for two months and have never regretted buying them from PetSmart. All the little creatures were kept in clean comfortable cages with plenty of toys and fresh water. The rats I chose were exceptionally friendly and enjoyed being held. No fear, no biting, no running. So please lay off the attitude about our "ignorance" and our intention to support the awful pet mills in this country!!! All of us here @ RatForum love our rats and other pets. If we purchase from pet stores it's probably because we have no other choices or maybe we're trying to rescue a rat from a bad situation.



2nd that! It's difficult to find rescues and breeders in some areas and when you do find them, there are so many darn hoops you have to jump through that make no since.


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## Maiden (Mar 9, 2012)

All right. All right. All right!


This whole thing has turned into a big furious mess of a ball of hate, and I have just read through all seven of these pages so I know what is in this thread. Let me tell you, most of what I see here is downright ridiculous. People here are literally saying that you should not buy pets from big pet stores because they don't treat the animals well, and yet this is what I see:




Raturday said:


> Quite the fallacy you have here. You can't make blanket statements like that (and have them be accurate, anyways..). I happen to work for PetSmart, and can speak for my store specifically. We do not sell cedar or pine for rats (honestly I tell people not to buy cedar or pine for ANY animals) and we do not sell single rats unless someone already owns one to begin with. We keep our rats in our biggest cage and give them toys and carefresh and as much daily attention as we can. We clean out their cages and completely sanitize everything in their cage at least once a week. If we notice any health problems, we have an in store vet we take them to and put them in our sick room. We can also refuse sales to anyone that doesn't seem to be a fit person to take care of the animals, and I have before plenty of times. If someone doesn't want to buy a big cage for their rats, I tell them to take their business elsewhere.





iHayleyNorris said:


> Well, I actually work for one of these type of stores and I know for a fact that we keep our animals in top condition. We don't let anyone out of the store with one of our animals if they can't prove that they have the correct information and supplies to take care of the specific animals.





Zilla said:


> I'm just going to add this because I see people saying that pet store employees pick up rats by their tails all the time... I work for Petco, and the company had it's annual manager's summit last week. They did a whole workshop on how to properly handle and care for rats. They even posted a copy of the guidelines in the stores and on the break room computers for employees to see. They covered a lot of things, but the thing they emphasized the most was NEVER pick a rat up by the tail and they went into detail about degloving and how rat's tails are a very important appendage (for regulating temperature and balance etc). So if you see someone picking up a rat by the tail in a Petco store (or any pet store), tell the manager or call corporate. There's absolutely no excuse for it and the person could (and should) be fired.


 And for these responses that contradict the claims made by others people say:



moonkissed said:


> Even if your store is amazing it is far far far not the norm.


 If it isn't the norm then why are there so many people saying it??

Why does the big branch store have to be evil? Why can't we get a rat that was born from a mill? Will we love it less because it had a harder start, or doesn't have better genes? Because it didn't live as long do we love it less then the ones that out live it? And then people yell at the stores "you sold me a pet I loved that died too young!" As tragic as it is I have to quote a country song here: "I could have missed the pain but I would have had to miss the dance." I have a thirteen year old Yellow lab my family bought form a pet store. When she was seven we found out she had been a puppy mill puppy. Do I wish we had gotten a dog from a breeder instead? NO WAY ON THIS EARTH! I NEVER stop and wish I had gotten a lab somewhere else, because if I had I wouldn't have HER. Saying not to get a rat because he was born in a mill is akin to saying not to marry someone because he is a fatherless child, which they used to say until they realized it was a TRASH idea. The genes of a rat are determined by birth, yes, but not the love they give to you.

Someone here suggested that not buying pets from pet stores was the answer but people will do that and you cannot much stop them. And as far as the person mad about their hamsters death of wet tail. That is tragic, but you cannot blame the store for that because you are just as much at fault. Wet tail is treatable. You could have treated and saved your hamster. I know that is mean to say but that does not make it less true. Education is everything. Someone else here made a great point, that the best way to change things was to boycott the store all together, but then where do we get the dog food for my 13 year old yellow lab? Or my breeder puppy, or my rescue dog? Yes, I have pets from every situation. My rats even came from the owner, who needed to re-home them. Do any of them show any less love or affection? No. They all have different personalities and are all lovely animals.

And some of the things I have read here:



Rosalynn said:


> And the reason I posted this was because as I was going through forums, I was noticing so many people suggest they get their supplies/cages from Petco/Petsmart. And I was getting frustrated! I buy all of my stuff second hand off of Kijiji or I go to Global Pet Foods (pet supply store that sells everything BUT animals).


 Where do you HONESTLY think they get their cages from to start with? They buy it from Petsmart/co, then sell them when they are done with them. Besides, the things you can expose your rats to when buying a second hand cage scares me.

And everyone here screams "breeder, breeder, breeder!" but some of these breeders I hear about are just running smaller scale mills! Someone on this site received a female rat form a breeder that I think she payed $20 for only to find out it was pregnant. Turns out while the rat was not housed with males "the cages were too close together." To which I say, "What?!" Yes, just because you pay an extra $15 does not mean you are getting a "better rat" and do not say that rats from pet stores are not being looked down upon here, because they are.

And I am a frequenter of many pet stores, and yes, I have seen some bad pet stores before, but it was not the big branch pet store everyone here seems to think is the bad guy. It was a little self operated thing. They didn't sell rats, they had guinea pigs in terrible conditions. Another pet store I used to go to is literally known for selling fish that die. (Another small self operated.) So, yes, not all pet stores are good, but to say all are evil is wrong in itself. All, always, and never do not exist. There are exceptions to everything. I go to Petsmarts and Petcos and see them using carefresh, checked and saw all the bottles always had water and the rats were healthy looking and being fed a steady diet of lab blocks. They handle them regularly and are educated when I ask them questions. If I do come across an employee that doesn't have the answer they will swiftly bring me to the person that knows more than they do. I have bought mice from a store and I was asked if they were for pets or for food, I told them pets and I was told that if I had said food they would not have been able to sell to me. One of those mice died within a few months, and it was tragic and I cried but do I blame the store? No. Do I wish I hadn't bought that mouse? NO! I loved her for her personality and if I hadn't gotten her I would never have enjoyed the experience of having HER. To say that it is only okay if someone has had "that moment" is ridiculous and who are you on your high horse to tell us that we are wrong for buying the creature we now hold so close to our heart?

I cannot be the only one here that cheers when I see a family shopping for a small animal at a pet store, and I am proud to smile at the parents that take out a rat for their child to hold. Because the pet is from a store or a mill, will the child love it less? NO! And perhaps that purchase that day made on impulse turns that child into a responsible, rat loving adult. Who is to say?

Now I am going to end this thing with one last quote from Rat Daddy that's been absolutely rockin' in defending his position:



Rat Daddy said:


> Rat owners have plenty of enemies out there... we don't need to count each other among them. In my opinion its easy to spot the good guys and gals... they're the ones with ratties! Lets not make it more complicated than that.


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## Cupcake&Candy (Jun 5, 2012)

*Thank you!!*

_Thank you, thank you. YOU rock, Maiden! :-*
You said it al perfectly. We all love our ratties (and dogs, cats, lizards, etc.), and we should keep the focus on __them instead of where they came from.__ Let's choose to share pleasant experiences and photos and __stop the lecturing__. Please. 

Also, my Petsmart is literally across the street from my apartment - realistically, there's no way on Earth that I'm gonna drive all the way to Texas for a breeder! _


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

This is ridiculous, you guys don't even know what you're arguing about any more. It's like arguing just for the sake of arguing... I'm locking this.


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