# SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin? PICS]



## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Okay, so this is only my second time posting here. I have had my first rat, Rocket, for just over two months. I was finally able to get him a cagemate about two/three weeks ago.

Here is what transpired:

Went to the pet store, purchased a young male rat. But when I left, he began having awful diarrhea and seemed slightly lethargic. There was an awful smell. I brought him back and forced them to let me exchange him for a different one. To my dismay, this one also had the diarrhea, but he was a lot more active healthy-looking. I took him home.

I got him home and put him in a new cage in my bedroom for quarantine. The diarrhea disappeared as soon as I got him home and I attributed it to stress. He was very healthy, happy, inquisitive, etc., just like Rocket was before him.

I continued quarantine for about a week before I accidentally broke quarantine by forgetting to change my shirt after having the baby in/on it. At this point I threw up my hands and said "screw it" because I knew my quarantine was probably pointless anyway, being in the same house.

I introduced them, all went well, etc.etc.

Then, just a few days ago, I went to put Rambow (the baby) in with Rocket and saw his face was covered in wet porphyrin from his eyes to his snout. I started panicking immediately. Today it is dry around his nose but wet around his eyes and oddly, down his stomach. He has diarrhea again.

Rocket seems fine. Aside from the occasional sneezing. I've been watching him like a hawk and have put Rambow back in my room.

Any help and info would be appreciated. I'm so worried for Rambow and especially for Rocket. 

Bits of pertinent info: they are on Yesterday's News and SueBee's diet. I cannot take them to the vet, as there are none here who treat rodents.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

what else do you feed (veggies, fruit), how old is the baby?

A lot of it sounds like stress...is he active? Is he eating/drinking fine? No sounds from his lungs (URI)?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

They mostly get carrots and apples as that is usually all that's in the house. I'm not sure of his age, honestly, if I had to guess I would guess 6 weeks.. Not sure.

He seems to be active but I'm not sure about the eating and drinking. He is not in the same room as the computer so I can't watch him as much, and they for some reason dump their food on the floor so I can't really tell (and he drinks so little, being so small)

Would I be able to hear any sounds with my naked ear (if there are any)? Or should I try with a stethoscope?

I wish he was out here where I could watch him constantly, but I'm afraid to keep him in the same room as Rocket


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Rocket and he are already exposed to each others germs. At this point I wouldn't worry too much. Can you keep their cages about 10 feet away from the others? I think thats far enough for a rats sneeze.

Fruit can cause some very loose poop. I would keep your wee one on the suebee;s mix alone and then give him the fruit in small portions once his poop has firmed up.

You could feed your wee one the BRAT diet (very easy to digest and really good for diarrhea)
Banana
Rice (brown is best for the fibre)
Applesauce
Toast

Even the rice will help a lot.


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Okay; just checking, but are you saying it's probably okay (or, rather, it doesn't matter at this point) to keep his cage close to Rocket's, or keep it 10 feet away? I don't have any other rats, just these two; I wasn't sure if you were referring to Rocket, or any other rats when you said 10 feet.

Will try the BRAT diet ASAP.. Unfortunately I cannot get into town right now due to snow storm so all I have is toast and possibly some white rice. It's worth a try right?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Just sort of nosed in on this thread in passing, sorry about being so brief.

Boiled rice really works when my rats get runny tummys. Try it over a 12 hour period and it should show improvement. Or that's what I've always done. I'd say if it continues after a 24 hour period you might have try and find a vet willing to look at your furkid.

Watch for dehydration too.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

keep his cage 10 ft away from other rat cages. A sneeze is an explosive force and can carry pretty far in the air. Its just a small preventative at this point.

Definitely worth a try, my oops mom had diarrhea 1 week after the birth (its almost normal) and being a picky eater, only ate a bit of toast but devoured the white rice (all I had at the time as well), and it worked well.  You'll see a difference pretty quickly.

If the rat is sick (diarrhea is not a common symptom for most illnesses) then it will continue no matter what.

With the porphyrin, does he clean it up on his own and it stays gone or is he just producing way too much?


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Rice and chicken (boiled, NOTHING added) are what I give all my (meat eating) animals when they have diarrhea. Sort of like the BRAT diet. White rice, if it's what you've got, will be fine enough.

I'd concentrate on keeping him hydrated. Check for dehydration by gently pulling up on the skin behind the neck. If it settles back to normal quickly, he's okay. If it takes a little time, he's dehydrated. Also watch his urine output... If he stops peeing, he may be dehydrated.

Personally, I'm worried about the fact that both the rats had the runs and one appeared ill. I'd take this guy into the vet, just to be sure. There are rat-treating vets in Nova Scotia. Here's one that (at least, used to) see rats (they may be able to help locate one closer to you as well):

Dr. Eric Carnegy
Carnegyâ€™s Animal Hospital
7 Langbrae Drive, Suite 5
Halifax, Nova Scotia B3M 4N7 Canada
(902) 457-1575, (902) 445-1202 FAX
http://www.carnegyanimalhospital.com/


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Thanks everyone  I think he's a little dehydrated, but not too badly. Is the best way to get some fluids in him just a good old eyedropper/syringe?

He gobbled up some of the toast and I'm about to prepare the rice now. He is eating his SueBee's mix as well, so he's getting food but not water, for some reason. Drink, you little frigger! 

The porphyrin, I'm not sure. I've seen him trying to clean his face off but it doesn't seem to do anything. I washed his face earlier and couldn't even get the dry stuff off, but his eyes and belly are clean, at least. He looks pretty pitiful though. BUT he's active and playful. And eating.

Kimmie, thanks for the link! I'm going to e-mail them and ask if they know of any closer rat vets. There's no way I can go to Halifax unfortunately; it's three hours away, it's snowstorm season, and my parents would never allow it. *runs off to e-mail*


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics**

Okay, here's an update.

He's eating well. I don't think he has diarrhea anymore! I believe he is also drinking; but I'm also sort of bottle feeding him more water to prevent dehydration, just in case. No such thing as too much water, lol.

The porphyrin is still there. I've washed him twice now but it just keeps coming back. All around his nose, and to a lesser point, his eyes and stomach.

What it seems like to me is, he's washing himself, and he's got too much porphyrin in his saliva, so it's staying all over him. Does that make sense?

What do you guys think?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin?]*

is he a pale coloured rat?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin?]*

Yes he is, he's a solid beige with ruby eyes


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin?]*

Can you get a pic?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin?]*

I'll go do that now


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: SV? URI? *panics* [Edit: Excess porphyrin?]*

Needless to say, he was not happy.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Is it just a reddish stain on the tips of his fur?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Pretty much; it's all through his fur, he's all wet - and it's like that constantly.

His nose was full of crusty dry porphyrin the other day, but I guess I washed it off and it hasn't come back yet.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Zhuria said:


> Pretty much; it's all through his fur, he's all wet - and it's like that constantly.
> 
> His nose was full of crusty dry porphyrin the other day, but I guess I washed it off and it hasn't come back yet.


Him being all wet concerns me...is he constantly grooming/licking himself?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

When he's not sleeping or eating, he seems to be washing his face a lot.


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Okay. He has been eating and drinking GREAT. No diarrhea. He was in fairly good spirits until today.

And he's wheezing and rattling. So I guess it must be an URI.. And I'm worried, a lot. He's somewhat lethargic and seems depressed. It probably doesn't help that he's alone 

I was wondering - do you think my vet would give me Baytril even though they don't treat rodents? Can I just go in and say "PLEASE give me some Baytril, my rat is dying?" I know it's used for cats and dogs as well, so surely they'll have it?

I'm not even sure he'll make the night, at this point..


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear that 

Maybe, printing something off of the internet will give them some point of reference when you take him in?

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

Very useful.

They should know that Baytril is readily used in smaller animals anyway, so they may just prescribe it. If he's sounding as bad as you say, they may need to also give an anti-inflammatory injection. Have you tried steaming up a bathroom and holding him in there? Unless he is very very conjested, perhaps keeping him in a 'steam room' for a little while as it opens the airways and makes it easier to breathe.

I also have just been sent some information from http://www.cavyrescue.co.uk/ (it's a guide to respiritory illness' and diseases in rats - with many good references to medicine combinations) it's been written by a vet, for vets, and they are in the process of distributing it to 3,700 vets in the UK. If you want to PM me your email address, I can certainly forward you that information for you to take in as well? (it's not in a format to post on here, i'm afraid  )

-Edit- I forgot to say good luck!


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Thank you Ration! I spoke to my online vet-in-training friend and she has convinced me to take him in and see if they can do anything aside from prescribing the Baytril, and she's told me to take in some print-outs as well 

He seems a LITTLE better now.. Maybe I was overreacting earlier, and he was just sleeping, or something *lol*

That info sounds awesome! You can send it to me at [email protected]

Thanks so much. I'm going to put his cage in the steamy bathroom in just a moment, hopefully it will help!


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Good news! I'm taking him to the vet tomorrow. He's still the same, eating and drinking, but not getting any better.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Good news indeed. Hopefully he'll get sorted 

Good luck!


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks  I'll need it.

I just gave him a bath.. As much as I didn't want to stress him out anymore, he really needed it.

I'm not seeing as much porphyrin now, but LOTS of mucus. It was caked on his face; he was able to get some off himself but I had to pick some off. He's lost lots of fur on his face due to that.

He's washing himself CONSTANTLY.. It seems like he's spreading the mucus all over himself, but then he tries to clean it off but just makes it worse, and it's a vicious cycle.

He also cries/squeaks every time I touch him. I can't imagine he's in that much pain, so maybe he's just reverted to being shy.

I was doing more reading on Baytril and I read somewhere not to give it to rats under 3 months. He's maybe 2 months at the most. What should I do? Are ANY drugs safe for him? I don't want to kill him!


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

Could you clear something up for me


What we are seeing in the pics are of him AFTER you have washed him... correct?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes, this last pic is after I washed him, several minutes ago. The ones on the first page were before. (and a few days ago)


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

A1APassion said:


> Could you clear something up for me
> 
> 
> What we are seeing in the pics are of him AFTER you have washed him... correct?


Second that.

Baytril shouldn't be used through the rapid growth phase of baby rats, you're right. Although I think it's only really dangerous if it's a high dose and for a prolonged period of time (or thats what they say about dogs). It can cause developmental problems in the bone (is that right? not sure)

I can't think of anything as commonly used in rats as Baytril, but definately ask your vet this, in case an alternative can be offered. I know I have used Baytril in young rats before - admittedly not under 3 months, but relatively close to it without problems.

Maybe it's a case of take the risk and sort him out - or wait and find an alternative and he possibly gets worse?

I'm not 100% on the facts above, so do double check what I've said. Maybe someone else can add some info?


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## rattusnorvegicus (Dec 31, 2007)

is he loosing hair on the top of his head, i think i remember you saying that he has been constantly grooming himself when he is not eating or sleeping. this is not normal. when my baby eskimo was sick, right before she died, she was way to weak to clean herself 'down there' and so it got smelly and wet like that, but it also stained her fur yellow, so i had to clean her with a wet wash cloth myself. i wonder if these illness signs our related. good luck and keep us posted.


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

could you please provide pictures of what you are seeing prior to washing him up because every picture looks like he was freshly washed


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes, there is almost no fur on the top of his head there. There's a little more down lower. Yesterday he had what looked like a mask of thick mucus all on the front of his face; today the top part was gone and I picked the rest off for him.

Yes, he is still grooming a lot. He seems to have plenty of energy, and he's still eating and drinking fine, but he's always wet and he's always trying to wash something off of himself.


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

In the original 3 pictures he was NOT freshly washed. I had not washed him at all. He was soaked with what appeared to be saliva and porphyrin. I hadn't done anything at that point.

I did not get a picture before I washed him tonight, I'm sorry. He looked so awful I didn't even think to do it.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

rattusnorvegicus said:


> is he loosing hair on the top of his head, i think i remember you saying that he has been constantly grooming himself when he is not eating or sleeping. this is not normal. when my baby eskimo was sick, right before she died, she was way to weak to clean herself 'down there' and so it got smelly and wet like that, but it also stained her fur yellow, so i had to clean her with a wet wash cloth myself. i wonder if these illness signs our related. good luck and keep us posted.


Eskimo may have had incontinence because she was so ill and because she was so weak was unable to clean herself.

This little rattie is a complete mystery. Zhuria - this mucus is like snot? Or what? You mention saliva - how are his teeth? Might he have a problem inside his mouth? I only ask because when one of my rats had a absess in his mouth he drooled a LOT. Just an idea that's sprung to mind


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Forgive me this question if it seems a little 'out there' - you don't have any ant poisons, insecticides or anything around your house he could be exposed to or could have come into contact with?


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

I know! His symptoms are weird. I mean, I know I'm not an expert, but they are odd.

The mucus was snot, yes. It was like hardened snot. It looked snot-coloured, not porphyrin-coloured. In fact I don't even think he's having issues with porphyrin anymore.

I can get my dad to help me check his mouth later. I suspect it's fine since he's eating so well, but I'll check 

Nope, no ant poisons or insecticides or anything. Nothing at all. I'm always careful to keep chemicals away from my pets.

This sucks D:


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Is he still rattly in his chest?

I didn't think it would be poisons - just wanted to check. I just remembered that some things like that can cause excess saliva, the runs and teary eyes. I'm clutching at straws for you I'm afraid 

I'd be really interested to know what your vet thinks it might be. This is an odd case, you're right. I've never seen discharge like that in any of my lot - minus Ritchie's drooling when he had that absess.

Best of luck at the vets ok? Keep us updated 

And give the poor guy a little treat from me


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes, but he seems to be worse at night. It's weird.

I don't know if the vet will be much help, honestly, but all I can do is take him in and try.

Thank you, and I will definitely keep updating!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

It could very well be worse at night because that is when he is most active.

Many of my URIs flare up worst at night or during the night when they are up and running around.

Mention everything that you've told us here, they may be able to put two and two together. If they don't give you a satisfactory answer, remember to ask them about any specialists in the area that may be able to help. They must have somewhere that they can refer cases for exotics too.  or I would hope so


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

*nods* I hope so too.

I've decided to go to a clinic that's half an hour away instead of my local one. Truthfully I hate the incompetent idiots at the local clinic, and I think a few people who used to work there are now at the other clinic - these ones aren't incompetent 

So, they may have more experience with exotics, or be able to help me find someone who does.


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## kaylaface (Sep 6, 2007)

Aww I wish you luck. I hope everything turns out ok.


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

as for the poison idea

since these rats, the first that was mentioned & this one that was offered as a replacement both were sick with what seems to be the same condition it is very likely that if it is poison related the poisoning would have taken place back where you bought them, or when they were transported to the store or even from where they originally came from.

I would definitely pay a visit to the store where you bought the rat but seeing that it has been approximately a month you might not see any of the rats that came in at the same time.

Don't say anything to anyone immediately or at all. Look at the rats that are there & see if you see anything similar going on. If you do, just ask them in a inquisitive way "why are your rats wet or what is that on their face?" & see what kind of reply you get.

This was either a fluke thing or this place is in the habit of selling sick pets.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I have NEVER seen anything like that at all.

Btw if a baby is that sick then Baytril is the best thing for him...don't worry about unproven theories if it will make him better. I would much rather have a live baby who *may* be a bit retarded in his bone growth than a baby who is struggling to live and get better on other meds.

I know a breeder who put a 3 week old baby on baytril due to an injury, it all depends on the circumstances. Btw the baby is just fine and big and happy now 

OK for your case I would definitely join GooseMoose's Rats Rule and post this on there. They have a huuuge membership from around the world, that range from newbs to vet techs, etc. Someone may recognize this problem. 

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks guys  I don't know if I've said it yet.. But I appreciate all the help, and tips, -so- much.

A1A, I WOULD go except for it's over an hour away. I don't think it's worth it. Coincidentally I got Rocket at the same place maybe a month or two before, and he hasn't ever been sick. Not that that means anything, though 

Also, I don't feel that this is related to the original sickness, unless it's a problem with his immune system and causes secondary infections. His diarrhea has completely gone and I'm attributing it to the fruit, since as soon as I cut him off of it he started popping out turds P)

He is doing GREAT today! I'm shocked, because he had a really bad night last night; I could hear him crackling/wheezing all night. But he's full of spunk now, ready to see the doctor in a few hours (I called, they said to take him in even though they don't specialize in rodents). I'm very hopeful that these vets are nicer than the local ones, and that they'll be a big help.

Spaz, thanks especially for the comment about Baytril. I was having trouble getting over that, since Baytril seems like THE BEST thing to give him, yet he's young.

I will check that site out later, I'm leaving for the vets in a few hours so I don't really have time to type up a bigass summary right now and I need to nap because poor Rambow kept me awake all night


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Alright, here's the updated - sorry it's late, I was exhausted last night and I was in the emergency room today (thankfully, I don't have appendicitis)

The vet was a total sweetheart. So was Rambow! I think HE made HER want to specialize in rodents. She did some reading before my appointment as well, so she was prepared for the little rattie. Unfortunately they didn't have a scale small enough (I intend to buy one ASAP, just to have) but she estimated his weight and put him on Baytril (0.01 mL, LOL!)

Today, I'm not sure. As usual, he's eating and drinking, and in GREAT spirits, but he seems to be a little tipsy D: He seems like he wobbles when he walks and kind of teeters. I don't believe it's the Baytril because I think he was starting this before we got to the vet's. An inner ear infection perhaps - which I would hope the Baytril would take care of as well.

I guess now all we can do it wait and see. Anyone know how fast Baytril works?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Baytril will usually take a few days.

I have a niggling feeling in the back of my head that 0.01ml may not be sufficient dosage. It seems very little (although, as you say he is young). Usually, the minimum I'm told to give is 0.05ml twice daily in my smaller scrats and 0.1ml twice daily in the larger ones - this dosage can be increased (and should be sometimes) but it's my vets usual dosage. 

I hope some others here can help with that - I may be talking out of my bum. Like I say though - it's just a niggle. 

It's good to hear that she did her research! That's a good sign. 

Goodluck Rambow, feel better soon kiddo!


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Well, I can't see how it would hurt to up it to 0.02 or even 0.03. Since one website said to give four times the usual amount. Right? I'll wait a bit and see, though


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I think Baytril has a safety zone of 4x the dosage. Wait and see, you're right. Then, if I were you, I'd call the vet and say 'Uh..no improvement but I've read the dosage should be..' and see what they say.


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

I actually mentioned it to her last night and she kind of brushed it off. I think her reasoning was that she was estimating his weight high already, so she didn't want to risk it in case she was wrong.

I need a **** scale .___.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Did you take in the RMCA medicine guide? The dosages on there are higher than what my vet prescribes - so I'm sure a higher dosage wouldn't harm him. See how things go, it might be ok. \x/


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

I took it in (along with 3 other printouts) and COMPLETELY FORGOT to show them to her.

I guess I was afraid to appear as a know-it-all >___>


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Oh psh, I wouldn't worry about being a know it all at all. Knowing what you need to know is being a good owner - a fact that many people seem to forget. They're happy to take everything at face value as these vets are the 'professionals', but with our little exoticals it's our job to do the extra research 

What's she gonna do? Tell you off for knowing too much? Me thinketh not-eth :lol:


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Hehe, I suppose. Anxiety issues here so I'm pretty shy


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

The baytril did nothing, and last night Rambow died before I could take him back to the vet.


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

oh my gosh i'm so sorry. it must have been just a little too late for him. you did so much for him though, i'm sure he is happy at the bridge.


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## Zhuria (Oct 28, 2007)

Thank you  I'm okay, I only wish I could have done something more.

At the very least I have learned a few things, like a vet where I can take my rodents, and the fact that I should buy a small kitchen scale ASAP for future use. Perhaps Rambow will save one of my future rats.

At least he was happy until the end. I think so, anyway. He just had this silly, happy look on his face, and he would try to run around and frolic, only it involved a lot of falling over.

Rest in peace, Rambibow.


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