# okay? buisness starts now.



## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

I have 2 rats. 2 male around the age of 4 months old.. one is fairly loving& the other doesn't really bother with you much. when you get them out onto the bed, they run around, squabble and fight, not always a sort-of-serious fight. never been any real amount of blood. they have both been brought up together since before I had them. is there anything I can do to get the one to realise me more and not be so scared of me. one minute he is okay and will jump on my shoulder and take treats from me or the other minute he is running off from you and jumping if you move. I just aint sure what's up.and is there anything I can do to stop them both fighting whenever theu get the chance. Any help would be great  .


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## SneakyLord (Mar 22, 2014)

Don't stop them fighting, it's either dominance or playing as long as there's no blood. And remember most male rats like to play on their own, so they might want some attention, but not always. They also have different personalities, so one wants to be with you and one doesn't. Sorry, but we can't really change that.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Ah so there's nothing I can actually do? I thought I was doing something wrong. I shall just leave them. and try and give them more human attention. 
is it their age? Thanks


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Sounds normal from what you have described.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

I must overthink things. I forget they're still young. 4 months old, they're still going through puberty like.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

rats have just had an aggressive fight but no blood involved. I can't sleep because I am constantly thinking one of them is gonna get hurt. its 4:15am in uk and I just dont know what to do!


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## thenightgoddess (Apr 2, 2014)

As longs as they aren't actually hurting each other and there is no blood then I wouldn't worry they are hitting puberty and are probably fighting over dominance.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Clapping your hands with a NO doesn't work I take it? 

I've heard of people using rat night lights to cut down on fights. But unfortunately yes the fighting is normal for their age. Just intervene and teach them no; they'll be working out whose the boss meanwhile. 

As to socializing more, it's all personality which in puberty has up and downs. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm trying the water bottle atm but I cant cope with all the night wake ups ;-(


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

The water bottle probably won't help. Saying no helps, usually because of a course of action. 

For example let's say my two rats start fighting. I wake up and tell them to knock it off. If it continues, I get up and tell at them. If they still won't stop, I get in there, break it up, pin each down, and give them a nose-to-nose. After a few nights of a predictable routine, they stop on knock it off because soon after comes trouble. This is how you enforce a no, and soon a no suffices. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

nope one of them likes it.. and tbh I am exhausted and can you split them up on a night and leave them together in the day?


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

&my dogs coming into heat? does that effect ratties?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Id advise the split only be a temporary solution as rats are most active around this time. 

The rats won't be affected by your dogs heat. It's all puberty in them. Their hormones are raging. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

so do I just leave them? what if they really hurt one another? im worried about just leaving them and me waking up to one of them dead or something :-(


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Trust me, if their squeaks bother you you would not sleep through a rat in pain. Let's just say they scream. 


It's rare that it would come to death. It's rare enough for it to come to true aggression. Most of the time it's just a dominance fight which is not terribly worse than a play one. A real fight will feature some of: tail lashing, hissing, puffing up, sidling, lunging, rump bites. Play fights may include sidling but never ever any of the other stuff. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

yep they definitely had a real fight but looking at other peoples post about fighting their rats rip chunks out of each other but mine dont they just pull abit of hair out that's it like


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Does the fur come from the rump? 

I would start spending time enforcing what no means so you can just say that and it be enough. 

If they fight less when lights are on id also look into wine lights and stringing them up. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

yeah it does, but it doesn't seem to bother them much tby. and yeah I'm definitely going to look into these things. you have been such a help.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Could it be that the rump bald spots are barbering rather than ripped out?


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

what's barbering mean? I aint actually sure lol


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

so if I put them in seperate cages but put them together to see how they get on tonight, will it be hard to get them back together first thing in the morning.


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## thenightgoddess (Apr 2, 2014)

Maybe you could try taking them out for like two hours right before you go to bed and play with them a ton so they are really tired. and barbering is when they groom so much and so hard that they take hair out and can cause sores. If I were you unless they start to draw blood I would just keep them together could you put them in another room at night so they don't bother you?


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

what if they really hurt one another though? I'm really worried.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

First, try to see if this is bald spots from grooming or fighting. Rats typically don't tear out fur like rabbits do. 

If you do separate them it shouldn't cause problems but it isn't an ideal long term solution. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

I think it's fighting. I have thought about if they're mites so I give them a olive oil bath just incase. I got them out earlier for an hour and they didn't fight, they were just tired. I find tufts of fur on my bed after a scuffle so I ain't actually sure. they ain't noticable from just looking at them, you have to brush their fur back and look for them if you know what I mean.I'm not sure what to do, they're still asleep atm


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, so you bonded with one rat and not the other. The rat you haven't bonded with is fighting for alpha authority with a rat that has already bonded with you as the only alpha.... As the unbonded rat gets more frustrated with his roommates betrayal, he will get more aggressive. Some wanna be alphas will actually kill rats that are loyal to other alpha rats and alpha humans.

The fix is to form the correct alpha bond with your problem rat, once he accepts you as the one and only parent/leader/alpha in the pack he will stop fighting for authority he knows he can't have.

Obviously... as the human co-author of immersion, I'd suggest you start there for the how-to fix for your problem rat.

Best luck.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> OK, so you bonded with one rat and not the other. The rat you haven't bonded with is fighting for alpha authority with a rat that has already bonded with you as the only alpha.... As the unbonded rat gets more frustrated with his roommates betrayal, he will get more aggressive. Some wanna be alphas will actually kill rats that are loyal to other alpha rats and alpha humans.The fix is to form the correct alpha bond with your problem rat, once he accepts you as the one and only parent/leader/alpha in the pack he will stop fighting for authority he knows he can't have.Obviously... as the human co-author of immersion, I'd suggest you start there for the how-to fix for your problem rat.Best luck.


so, would it be okay to get the problem rat out on his own so its just me and him? I really do want to fix him because he can be a lovely rat when he wants to be. I am doing a full immersion day on wednesday hopefully cos its my only free day, so will it be okay to get him out alone?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I would definitely start out alone with him. Buddy up and if necessary, get the ground rules laid down. Then you can bring in your other rat and do a supervised group play... so everybody gets the idea that there's one alpha (you of course) and one family/pack.

Status and social order is very important to most rats as with most humans... A healthy family structure and everybody usually gets along.. Two alphas and someone is getting beat up and worse yet, there's going to be a show down. So you might as well get on top of the problem before it literally bites you.


Naturally, I mean alpha as loving parent not draconian overlord, but still in charge enough to have everybody's respect.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

he's not aggressive towards me and he does come and walk on me and climb on my shoulder also if they're on the bed and I'm standing next to it he will climb up my leg and climb up me. and what do I do to bond with him? I'm a little confused on immersion training.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

tried immersion today and flash just doesn't seem to want to know :-( he is terrified of me and I have no Idea why:-(


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Work on bonding with him. Keep trying. The first step is getting that message of his feelings 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

he will explore me, go up my shirt, sniff me and whatever but he doesn't seem to want to bother with me like.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That could just be personality. As long as he understands you're in charge it should e fine. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

well I am trying to make him know I am.. how do you know if he knows like? and he has never been aggressive towards me at all but he doesn't like to be fussed like my other boy. but then he might just be like that.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well if he sees you as the other alpha, he might be a little concerned about you taking him someplace private. If you were another rat alpha you would be taking him out to the woodshed, not to make friends.

Basically, if he's not pushing you (yet) this is very good. It generally means you are still ahead of the problem, but as he isn't really acting friendly either it still means you you guys have issues. Max, our current true shoulder rat doesn't much like to hang out with humans. She has free range of the house so she decides when she wants to play and interact. And usually she comes out to us a few times a day for up to an hour or so, and then pops off again. So she's not a snugler, but she certainly isn't afraid of us either. She can be very friendly and playful but doesn't much like being held unless we are going somewhere or it's part of the game she's playing with us.

Even when a rat isn't snugly, it's still friendly and never seems afraid of you. Max might not want to be held, but she will also be following me around the house and getting underfoot. 

I realize that what we are doing seems just a little awkward... we're working on your problem rat's relationship with you to fix his relationship with his roommate. But what we are doing is building social order from the top down. So when you say NO FIGHTING or STOP THAT, he gets that you are in charge and you set the rules. And we're trying to do this as gently as possible.... The object of the exercise is to exercise authority without instilling terror. So as long as he's being cordial, you stay cordial. As long as you can be assertive in a friendly way that's the way to go. And yes this might take a while.

I think you are still ahead of the big problems. What seems to happen is that one rat starts getting pushy, and is slowly gets worse when there is no push back. It starts out with some overgrooming, then some fighting and less and less human contact as the rat seems to withdraw more and more.... Finally there's blood on the weaker rat and one day the rat challenges the human directly and aggressively and may even take up biting humans.

This is about the point that just about everybody realized there's something wrong. At first, most people kind of figure they have a less than social rat... then they pretty much notice some fighting, and kind of go with the no harm no foul thing, then there's some harm, but it's not too bad.... then one day when their rats goes completely anti-social and there's a rat attached to their finger... and the question of hormonal aggression comes up... It's like it all happened overnight, which of course it didn't... 

Human nature makes us want to cuddle and snuggle with the cuddly and snugly rat and give the less friendly rat more space. And it's true some rats like our Max, likes lots of space and independence. But in all reality what you are doing is withdrawing from a rat that's starting to have aggression issues which feeds the problem. 

But how do you tell the difference between a rat that isn't a snugler and one that's going antisocial? Because the more independent rat doesn't pick on it's roommates, it just tends to keep to itself more. 

It's hard to give a good example, but I'll try... When I was a kid back in the 1960's I grew up in a medium to upper income suburban neighborhood, but there was an old hermit living in the woods on top of the hill past the end of my street. He was a pretty raggity old fellow and he pretty much always smelled bad he didn't shower. He lived in a one room shack, and yes this was in New Jersey, not Montana. My mom used to give him rides to the supermarket and the liquor store when she saw him walking, and thankfully the car had vinyl seats... (eventually social services caught up with him and they moved him to the old folks home and he was killed by a car on his daily walk back to his shack in the woods) Now he was always polite and friendly, but by every definition he was pretty anti-social. He likely went weeks without talking to anyone... but he wasn't serial killer, unibomber kind of anti-social. There's a big difference between a rat like our Max, that enjoys quietly living in an old box in the closet stuffed with paper towels salvaged from the trash and a rat that beats up it's roommate. Now, I'm not sure why we ever spent $100.00 on a cage because when Amelia was alive she had her own secret nest. But on cold winter nights, Amelia would move into Max's larger nest and both rats would snuggle together and I'd see them both come out of the same place in the morning... also around 5:00 AM in the morning both rats would jump on us together while we were sleeping, they may have had separate nests but roamed as a pack, so reclusive and hostile are very different traits in rats. One is a personality trait, the other a behavioral disorder that stems from a breakdown of pack structure. I don't think you can really fix reclusive, but you have to fix aggressive. 

I hope that helps.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

he doesn't pick on him as such I've started to realise that my niceish one is trying to push him but when this happens I pin whoever it is down and say no. They're getting along much better atm, I have them out longer, bother more with the problem rat and he thanks me in return, he doesn't give kisses but he will climb on me and my shoulder, he will take treats off me and I'll try stroke him whilst he is eating, one min he's okay but another he will be abit concerned. I am starting to see a change in him but I am trying to let him know I ain't gonna hurt him and I know it's going ti take time. I'm gonna get him out on his own tonight so the other one can't do his head in. and see how he acts.and yeah you've helped alot  thanjs


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You're putting in the time, you are taking charge of your family and you are getting the correct results. Rats are fantastic little learners if you give them the chance to be special.

I and I'm sure others, are happy to help folks that are willing to do what it takes to make a better home for their rats.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

well I'm starting with the no if they fight and it's working so far. we are getting along a lot better. I'm giving it more time for us to be solid but he is learning so fast and I am so happy


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

*UPDATE* - so still doing immersion training but omg there has been such a difference. Flash (the one I'm training) is beginning to really shine through. They haven't had a serious fight now for a while, they have their scuffles but nothing major. He is starting to come to me alot more now, if I'm standing by the bed he will jump on me and climb to my neck and ride with me for a little while. He listens to my 'No' and he know what will happen if he starts a fight because he will run off and doesn't do it again. I will attach a new photo up from today  I am such a happy ratty mom. I won't give up the training until necessary. Thanks everyone for helping me through a troubled time. means everything now my little babas are getting on alot better. :-D


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## aem3055 (May 1, 2014)

What a cutie!! I love that explosion of whiskers! ...and I'm glad you're sharing updates... it helps me to read what works for others, and what to recognize as problems in the social structure!


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

hehe I do too my beautiful boy. hehe... and yeah I am the same lol.. there will be more updates too


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's wonderful how rats think.. They are so much like us. When there's a strong, loving and trusted human leader in charge everybody is happy. When you take away the guidance you get chaos and bloodshed.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

they are amazing! and it is so much better when there's no chaos and you can get your rats out and play with them without having to keep them away from eachother or something. I am so happy with them


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

so everythings been fine for the past how ever many days.. they will be fine for so many days then one day they'll just play up.. can rats have off days like humans do?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh of course. Think of it like living as an adult with your siblings. Sure you can get along but you only have so much patience and of course they're gonna get on your nerves. 


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

aah well that's very true lmao! thanks


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

*UPDATE* so rats are so much happier, not a major fight in about a week, just scuffles but stops after a couple of seconds. happy rat, happy owner. thanks everyone who helped me


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks for the update, happy endings make it all worth while...


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah they sure do . Thanks RatDaddy!


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