# Rat Mills



## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Got permission to cross-post this from The Rat Shack from JoRats:

_I study Animal Sciences in the Netherlands and part of my extracurricular activities consists of being a board member of a commission which organizes excursions to companion animal related companies. One of my co board members is into mouse breeding and, through another mouse breeder, she came into contact with a person who breeds rodents and rabbits for profit. In short, I've been on an excursion to a rodent farm.

Although I do not agree with the concept of roden farms, I do appreciate the fact that this breeder agreed to show us his company and was very friendly and open about any questions we asked, and we were allowed to take all the pictures we wanted. So for now, I will leave the ethics to you; I will present the facts as they were presented to me and show you the pictures I took.

This man breeds fancy mice, feeder mice, rats, hamsters (all common species), guinea pigs, rabbits, lemmings (not sure if that's the English word), degus and gerbils. He also had a few ornamental birds and a couple of owls. The rats are housed in pairs or in groups of three; lactating does are housed seperately with their young. The does are constantly pregnant or lactating. When they are done breeding, they become snake food; the same goes for ill and old rats or those that cannot be sold (deformities, etc). The rats are fed rodent blocks and a few extras like bread, cat kibble and some vegetables. They are kept on a Hemp type bedding.

He breeds all kinds of rats: double rex, naked, rex, dumbo, but also top-eared, normal fur, etc. The rats are of various colors but he is most proud of his blues, who are price winning. He showed a blue male that sat very quietly and contently in his arms; this rat was only handled once a week, during clean out, and even so it was sweet as pie. He particularly appreciated the character of blues, who he said were tamer (although I suspect this can be attributed to his 'lines' rather than the color as a whole). For new varieties, blood and upkeep, he obtains some animals from Czech, where prices are low but quality is poor; but he prefers rats from the UK, as that's where he could get the special colors and rats of good quality. The animals are sold mainly to pet shops.

And for now: the pics.

The hall. In front, in the white things are the guinea pigs; behind it are feeder mice and rabbits; in front on our right are mice, hamsters and gerbils; rats are in the back. 










The rat housings 






























































_

Originally posted by Carla of the Fancy Rats forum, then cross-posted to The Rat Shack by JoRats, who says:



jorats said:


> I asked Carla from the Fancy Rats forum for her permission to put up her post here. I think it drives the point home. This is what you support when you buy a rat from a pet store.


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## ScootersPet (Sep 4, 2007)

Honestly....that makes me cry....i hate every bit of it


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## rrats (Oct 14, 2007)

wtf what do they do with them!!!


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

These are the rats that are sold to pet stores as 'pets' and 'feeders' usually. Some are kept and bred until they give out.

Really hits home when I realize this is WHY my boy Perry was so scared of humans.


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## AlienMando (Jan 19, 2008)

These conditions always remind me of rat concentration camps, except they get fed.

That looked cleaner that RalphDavis's breeding barn. He has videos online about how he cleans and 'cares' for his rats.

Its like a 10 part series, Part one starts here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UndW7_Gc_kM

if your interested.

While I find the videos really interesting, I highly disapprove of the cramped conditions he uses (6 adults per breeding box) and the treatment by lifting rats by their tails. And they're mostly in total darkness!!!


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

Those videos made me want to cry. =[
I had to grab Delilah and snuggle her(which she wasn't happy about, haha xD)....to think that she came from a place like that...
-shudders- Poor baby.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

I own a ball python so I understand that certain reptiles simply have to subsist on a rodent diet. However, I believe that all animals, especially feeders, should be housed, fed and treated with respect for the "service" they provide.

I'm a member of a ball python forum (Ralph Davis and several other breeders are well-known there) and a good portion of the snake owners there breed their own rats, so they are given proper housing, attention and care. 

Personally, I will _never_ feed a rat to my snake, for many reasons. I strictly feed mice and am working hard on transitioning Freddie (my ball python) to frozen/thawed because it's more humane all around.


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## stephigigo (Jun 18, 2008)

Forensic said:


> Really hits home when I realize this is WHY my boy Perry was so scared of humans.


The same for my dear Bow...  

I understand snakes have to eat too, but the rats should still have a happy life.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

What people have to remember is MOST rat mills will not allow a photographer inside, so this one is a "Good" one, unlike most.  They are well hidden secrets, very hard to find info about, that is why the undercover operation that broke Rainbow Pets wide open was soo huge!

Animal Mills are cruelty personified. Which is why I don't even go into stores that sell live animals any longer.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Kathleen said:


> Personally, I will _never_ feed a rat to my snake, for many reasons. I strictly feed mice and am working hard on transitioning Freddie (my ball python) to frozen/thawed because it's more humane all around.


I applaud your efforts Kathleen...keep trying!

FYI, my sister works at the Toronto Wildlife Centre (hospital/rehab, and release) and they always feed frozen/thawed to the _*Wild-caught snakes*_! These snakes have absolutely no issues with it either... :roll: The only time they feed live is if they have baby raptors in the Centre, that need to be taught how to catch live prey before they are released _and they never use rats_.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

This is a interesting thread, ive been to two places very similar.
One was a research institution and the other a battery chicken shed.

I'm sure its hard to keep it in perspective when we all have a common
joy for pet rodents...but..

But let me play devils advocate (some call me a devil/troll anyways)

The photos aren't of pet rodents, they're animals being farmed, much 
like any other domesticated livestock, which get bred and raised using the
most efficient methods possible with considerations for space and time efficiency.... animals like pigs and chickens are far far far worse off.



Hi Spaz,
I dont know what this is you talking about
_"They are well hidden secrets, very hard to find info about,
that is why the undercover operation that broke Rainbow Pets wide open was soo huge!"_

Is there a news article on it or...?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I did a quick google search and came up with

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/petsmart_investigation

Rainbow World Exotics  Don't watch the video if you are sensitive to animal cruelty


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for the link Ration, i wasn't sure if it was a published thing
out side of these rat type forums..
thanks


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## Skitza (May 18, 2008)

OMGsh that is HORRIBLE!!


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## cami+honey+zelda (Jul 2, 2008)

THEY SHOULD GET ARESTED FOR ANIMAL CRULTY!
it kind of makes me want to buy animals from pet stores even more!
i mean those animals should'nt have to deal with that but after what the've been through they should get a second cance with a roomy cage and loving owners! 
WHAT SOME PEOPLE DO MAKES ME SO MAD AND SAD :evil: :x


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## irisfreamon (Nov 19, 2007)

Those babies need more space. I don't care if they are used for feeding. Like Kathleen said, all animals which are bred for food should be given space to move around.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Their destination shouldn't matter- all animals have basic needs which must be met.

Not to throw water (gas?) on the fire, but keep in mind anything from Peta.org *may* be sensationalized. That's not to say the conditions might be horrific, and that these "mills" shouldn't be shut down, but I'm not impressed with my personal experience with them as an organization.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I normally take PETA declarations with a grain of salt but SEEING that video did it for me. 

There's also a sun pets or something like that? They were on the web but removed themselves after a ratlover saw what they were doing. For loose rodents they brought in feral cats to "cleanup" and they actually had pics on their website of them blowdrying rabbits (?) hindquarters because they had to be washed of the diarrhoea before being sent to the petstore, etc, etc *gag*


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

geebus said:


> But let me play devils advocate (some call me a devil/troll anyways)
> 
> The photos aren't of pet rodents, they're animals being farmed, much
> like any other domesticated livestock, which get bred and raised using the
> most efficient methods possible with considerations for space and time efficiency.... animals like pigs and chickens are far far far worse off.


Did you read the text posted with the photos?



> He breeds all kinds of rats: double rex, naked, rex, dumbo, but also top-eared, normal fur, etc. The rats are of various colors but he is most proud of his blues, who are price winning. He showed a blue male that sat very quietly and contently in his arms; this rat was only handled once a week, during clean out, and even so it was sweet as pie. He particularly appreciated the character of blues, who he said were tamer (although I suspect this can be attributed to his 'lines' rather than the color as a whole). For new varieties, blood and upkeep, he obtains some animals from Czech, where prices are low but quality is poor; but he prefers rats from the UK, as that's where he could get the special colors and rats of good quality. *The animals are sold mainly to pet shops.*


These are not comparable to livestock, they are comparable to dogs and cats. They are PETS and being raised as such. They should be bred for temperament, not color and quantity. They should be handled more than once a week if they are going to be someone's pet.

I won't even go into what's wrong with chicken and cow farms, but this is not a livestock organization, this is a pet mill. They are selling these animals as pets and they should be raised to be good pets, not to make a quick buck.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

cami+honey+zelda said:


> THEY SHOULD GET ARESTED FOR ANIMAL CRULTY!
> it kind of makes me want to buy animals from pet stores even more!
> i mean those animals should'nt have to deal with that but after what the've been through they should get a second cance with a roomy cage and loving owners!
> WHAT SOME PEOPLE DO MAKES ME SO MAD AND SAD :evil: :x


I assume you already realize that when you buy one, they just replace it with another. If you want to help, don't buy there, and boycott the stores. Tell your friends who want rats where to go. I was able to get a friend to rescue two rats instead of buying just by sending her a link to two boys who needed rescued. But don't buy those rats because you don't like the mills, you're paying the mills for their product and encouraging them to buy more.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow. Even though that's terribly sad, I am still going to rescue the poor things from the pet stores.              
*dry sobs*
Some people are just sick. >:-< Poor things....


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Ok, I can't help it. I HAVE to go and give my boys a cuddle!!! I rescued them from PetSmart and Petco.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

2boysloose said:


> Wow. Even though that's terribly sad, I am still going to rescue the poor things from the pet stores.
> *dry sobs*
> Some people are just sick. >:-< Poor things....


But, think about it... though you are "rescuing" *cough* one, you are fulfilling the need for more to be bred in those horrid conditions. You're doing nothing but perpetuating the cycle, so really, it's not rescuing at all. Rescuing does not involve taking one animal from an abusive situation just to replace it with another animal. You're helping these suppliers when you purchase from these stores, and the best thing you can do to help this stop is by not buying these animals. It's all about supply and demand.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes, in a way. But tolerating it while the animals sits there and suffers certainly doesn't help the situation either. The compassionate help those who need help (cheesy I know). If you were they, you would want someone to help you, because even though there would be another in your place, you would also know that as long as there is a demand for more money, there is nothing anyone can do to stop that.


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

2boysloose said:


> Yes, in a way. But tolerating it while the animals sits there and suffers certainly doesn't help the situation either. The compassionate help those who need help (cheesy I know). If you were they, you would want someone to help you, because even though there would be another in your place, you would also know that as long as there is a demand for more money, there is nothing anyone can do to stop that.


that same mentality is what's keeping puppy mills open.
like the others have said, the only way to stop it is to not buy animals from them.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

If you see animals in a store that are in bad conditions, then report it. You can save one or two or ten - but what about the ones they buy to replace those ones? Who will "save" them? By buying those rats, you are in effect FUNDING the pet mill. Why not go spread the word about the mills instead. Write to the store's corporate offices. If you see a really bad one, report it to the SPCA. They will rescue them and fine the shop. 

You buying a rat from a store is the same as you going directly to the mill and saying "Here's more money to keep breeding these rats in this horrible place I hate". 

Most of mine are from shops, but no more will be. There are rescues where you will actually be rescuing. Or you can buy from a breeder to help fund GOOD breeding, not milling.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Make sure your breeder is a good one, because a lot of people I know went that route and their breeder rats ending up sicker than their regular rescues.

Think of it this way, you BUY one rat, they will breed 4 more because the see the demand 

Its hard to boycott petstore rats but if there's no buyers then there's no demand, hence less and less supply.

Adopt from Petco, or take in rescue rats (what I call 2nd hand petstore rats, but you never paid for them, THOSE are the ones that are truly saved).


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

2boysloose said:


> Yes, in a way. But tolerating it while the animals sits there and suffers certainly doesn't help the situation either. The compassionate help those who need help (cheesy I know). If you were they, you would want someone to help you, because even though there would be another in your place, you would also know that as long as there is a demand for more money, there is nothing anyone can do to stop that.


You're thinking about a very small part of the equation. You are thinking only of what you can see: the animals in front of you. You are, however, not thinking of the animals that are still at the mill, suffering, and the future animals that you are funding to be bred that will suffer as well.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

Its not fair to claim just because you buy from a pet store your supporting these conditions. It's not as easy to get rats from a breeder in some places as it is for others. Sometimes the only option someone has is a pet store. I mean yeah those conditions were atrocious Not saying I agree with how mills treat animals. But boycotting stores will never work. People are always going to buy. All you can do is fight for better treatment and living conditions at this point in time.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

It is fair to claim that because that's what it is. You are financially supporting them as well as patronizing them. You are going in there are saying "I approve of this, here is my vote in money that says so. Buy more rats from the mills". 

I thought I couldn't find a rescue or breeder near me, so I bought most of my rats at Petsmart. Then I looked a LITTLE harder and found TONS of people around me. There is also transport for people who live farther away. I was being lazy when I bought my rats from pet shops. I don't even go IN any of those stores anymore because I know the rats are there and yes, it's sad. But I don't want to "save" them and I don't want to shop there. 

So just because other people will buy from stores, you want to add to that? So...do you also not recycle because other people don't? What about voting? Do you litter because other people will litter? 

Doing something that is wrong because other people are going to do it too doesn't somehow make it right. It's not the only option. It's the easy option.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

hahah wow you took that and made it in to something way to dramatic. And I Never claimed I was going to do any of that. Secondly I was merely making a point for those who aren't as fortunate as you are for finding one. I looked pretty hard in my area and it was really hard to find. A lot of people have zero. And no it isn't fair to claim it. There are plenty of forum members who hate mill conditions would never condone what happens but love their store bought rats and any other rats that happen to come along in their life time. And I just feel bad for all those who are being put down and patronized because certain people around here are making them feel like S*** and claiming that because they love rats and buy from a pet store they are being lazy taking the easy way out and supporting mills with bad conditions. While its a nice dream to stop such bad conditions it doesn't mean its ok to belittle people who don't do things the way others would like them to.

Oh and by the way I DO recycle :wink: 
Cheers


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

Yeah, I agree, Ace.
I also completely agree that buying from pet stores is supporting mills.
However, some people don't have good breeders in their immediate area.
I have searched hard, and the closest one to me is in Mineral Wells, which is about an hour drive. With the gas prices, there is NO way I am traveling that far. The breeder who I got Lambchop from is by no means a good breeder...
she didn't handle the babies at all, and so Lambchop is incredibly skittish. I love her and I know that with some work she will turn out to be a sweetheart, but I would rather buy a calm, sweet rattie from a petstore(and there are some, Delilah is one of them.) than support a terrible breeder. ><;


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

You live less than 1 hour from me, and I am able to find a TON of rats in the area who need good homes, from rescue AND breeders. *In fact, next weekend there will be a train of boys and girls coming from St. Louis, MO. There are 3 or 5 boys, and 2 girls who STILL need homes. If you'd like, I can meet you and drop off. I am doing the Little Rock to Dallas part.*

So you're saying the price of gas is worth more than doing the right thing? 

I traveled just over 1 hour to get my girls, and the cost of the gas was the farthest thing from my mind. It's a small expense when it comes to your own peace of mind. 

You can find GOOD breeders in our area. Not to mention REAL rescues, not just petco.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

AceYourFace said:


> I looked pretty hard in my area and it was really hard to find. A lot of people have zero.


PM me your zip code and I will find you some rats to rescue, and breeders.

I'm not saying people don't love their pet shop rats. I'm saying they're making excuses for behavior that they can change.


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

jesirose said:


> You live less than 1 hour from me, and I am able to find a TON of rats in the area who need good homes, from rescue AND breeders.
> 
> So you're saying the price of gas is worth more than doing the right thing?
> 
> ...


Well, seeing as I'm not the one paying for my gas, I kinda HAVE to take gas prices into consideration.
Rescues? Here? Where? O.O I googled, searched forums, etc and couldn't find any rat rescues nearby, or any good breeders. The ONLY good breeder I found is in Mineral Wells, and not only that but she never emailed me back.  
And, I don't buy from Petco, they have sick rats. Always. >< The one near me does, anyway.
I would much rather rescue or buy from a reputable breeder, I just haven't had any luck finding them. =/


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

What breeder is in Mineral Wells? The warm fuzzies person? I emailed them a while ago too. 

Because most people go to pet shops, it's hard for the good breeders to maintain. 

You won't find as much on google as you will by asking around, and you might even have to wait a short while. Also non-rat specific rescues have rats. Like the regular shelters.

You could always PAY the person who pays for the gas and then it won't be their problem. 

Didn't you have interest in a rat I was trying to rehome, and your grandmother wouldn't let you or something? If you still want more rats, let me know. I will find them for you. You might have to travel a short distance, but is it really worth supporting mills so that someone doesn't have to pay for some gas?

ETA: The person I just got my two newest girls from has 3 boys left, and they can be neutered for only $30. So I know of at least 10 rats off the top of my head within 1 hour of me.


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

jesirose said:


> What breeder is in Mineral Wells? The warm fuzzies person? I emailed them a while ago too.
> 
> Because most people go to pet shops, it's hard for the good breeders to maintain.
> 
> ...


I use my grandmother's gas card and while I usually do pay her when she gets the bill each month, I am currently out of a job and cannot do so. =/ Therefore I have been incredibly careful with my gas.(However, I am working at a camp starting next week and will be paid, and starting in August I will have a real job again, YAY! So money and gas won't be an issue any longer.)
Yeah, I did. She didn't want me to have a "problem rat". :roll: I personally don't think Katie sounds like a problem rat, but she seems to think that she would be. I need to move out, crazy grandmother....>>;
I do want a third rat, however I haven't even done intros with my two yet, so I won't be in the market for one for a couple of months.
I really want a nakie. xD Haha.
Do you think all shelters will have rats sometimes, at least?
I have been to the one near me and never saw any, but that doesn't mean they weren't there, I suppose...


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

I think it's excellent to inform people and show them alternatives to pet stores -- and encourage them to adopt from breeders or rescues -- but I also know that it's just not feasible for everyone to go that route (for whatever reason), just as it's not possible for everyone to stop eating meat or swear off plastic water bottles. Sometimes it's laziness, sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's misinformation, sometimes it's lack of resources... Whatever the case, it's just the unfortunate truth of the matter sometimes and we have to give people the benefit of the doubt and try not to berate. 

Although, as I said, I think it's wonderful to make others aware of the "better" routes they can go and to support them. You all are doing a good job of that here. *thumbs up!*


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Yep, just like when looking for the perfect dog or cat, sometimes you have to wait  So you might have to just keep an eye on the shelter. Sometimes you can make friends with people and they will call you when something comes in. If you need help finding a rat when you are ready in a few months PM me, I will help find one.

BTW: I had someone come by a short while ago to look at Katie, and that day she did a 180. She's become a totally different rat - I am so happy I didn't give up on her.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

While we're on this topic...

I only _just_ got my two boys but I one day plan to purchase the larger Ferret Nation model (or at least something equivalent in size) and I may consider acquiring more rats.

So, does anyone know any rescues within, say, 75 miles of Louisville (as far but not farther than Lexington) -- for future reference? I think I'd definitely like to go the adoption/rescue route rather than purchase from a store, breeder or wherever else and I'm a bit new to the area. 

Or would my best bet be to just search specifically when I'm on the market for more rats?


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Yep, just like when looking for the perfect dog or cat, sometimes you have to wait  So you might have to just keep an eye on the shelter. Sometimes you can make friends with people and they will call you when something comes in. If you need help finding a rat when you are ready in a few months PM me, I will help find one.
> 
> BTW: I had someone come by a short while ago to look at Katie, and that day she did a 180. She's become a totally different rat - I am so happy I didn't give up on her.


I think that come Monday I will give a call to the local shelter and ask if they have anything. And if not, I will see if they can contact me if/when they do get any rats in.
And when I am ready I will PM you. =]
It's nice to have fellow rat lovers in the area, especially when you are new to all of this, haha. 

I'm glad she's improved!! I bet she realized that you were trying to get rid of her and thought "oh no! I can't leave my mommy!"


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

I had a reply about Katie and I guess I didn't post it lol.
Basically - yes! She was like "Noo mommy I luv you". She's even been pushing little Adders around a bit. My husband whined about how he can't play with the rats and I finally pointed out that he could if he wanted, and if not he can shut up about it, because they're my pets. And so I got two more. *desk*.



Yeah feel free to PM me if you or anyone you know needs ratties to rescue, I am always looking everywhere because I have friends all over who have rats.



Kathleen said:


> While we're on this topic...
> 
> I only _just_ got my two boys but I one day plan to purchase the larger Ferret Nation model (or at least something equivalent in size) and I may consider acquiring more rats.
> 
> ...


Petfinder is always a good place to look:
http://search.petfinder.com/search/...et.Breed=Rat&location=40214&preview=1&x=8&y=5

But it is not the total list of course. But there is a rat-specific rescue in your town.


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

Kathleen said:


> While we're on this topic...
> 
> I only _just_ got my two boys but I one day plan to purchase the larger Ferret Nation model (or at least something equivalent in size) and I may consider acquiring more rats.
> 
> ...


How about FurrButt Farms Rescue?

Here's a link to some of the rats they have available on Petfinder. I live about 10 miles from Louisville and am considering adopting from them in the future (not anytime soon...I have 18 right now!).

http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...exact=1&animal=Small&Furry&preview=&zip=47150


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

AceYourFace said:


> But boycotting stores will never work. People are always going to buy.


Ah, just like boycotting buses would never work? :wink:


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

jesirose said:


> In fact, next weekend there will be a train of boys and girls coming from St. Louis, MO. There are 3 or 5 boys, and 2 girls who STILL need homes. If you'd like, I can meet you and drop off. I am doing the Little Rock to Dallas part


Really?
Hmmm...
That's so tempting, haha.
Do you know any details about the girls?


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

Ok wow. Um let me clarify, that I am reading the entire equation. I do think about the animals in the mills, and future animals to be bred in the mills. I am saying, that no mater how hard we try and want to stop things like this, they just can't be. I never said it was right. 
And I don't want to sound like I think I am really smart (trust me, no) or make myself sound so loving, but I am saying that I realize the situation, and it' boundaries. Funding something is one thing....
I didn't know I was going to be attacked, or told I am unknowingly supporting something I'm against, or else I would have never joined the conversation. So, sorry.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

SweetLittleDelilah said:


> jesirose said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, next weekend there will be a train of boys and girls coming from St. Louis, MO. There are 3 or 5 boys, and 2 girls who STILL need homes. If you'd like, I can meet you and drop off. I am doing the Little Rock to Dallas part
> ...


Here's the post from another forum:

I do have a mother (agouti berk) and daughter (black berk) who are needing homes. They are 7 months to a year.....give or take. Their previous owner wasnt sure. They are very sweet young ladies!!! Let me know if anyone is interested!!!! Thanks so much!!!

















I love that first photo, she's like "huh? oh hi!"


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Wow - our culture has overcome much worse things than animal mills. You REALLY think people can't make a difference? That is a SAD SAD Shame.

Hey, sometimes the truth hurts. 

A few months ago I was on the other side of it, saying I didn't have anywhere else to go for my rats - and I was wrong. You can defend it until you're blue in the face but saying you think you can't even do anything, that NO ONE can ever make a difference? Like I said - SHAME.


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

Awww, pretty girls. =]
Unfortunately I don't have room for four rats in my current cage (max is 3), and since they're mother/daughter, I'd feel horrible if I separated them.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

ledzepgirl16 said:


> AceYourFace said:
> 
> 
> > But boycotting stores will never work. People are always going to buy.
> ...


first off wtf? hahahah

and second im done with this topic its a never ending argument because there are two sides here that will never agree on everything. And it's just not worth my time anymore. So im done. :wink: *flys away*


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

No animal should live purely to be bred from, nor should they be forced to breed. That's just down right disturbing.


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## AlienMando (Jan 19, 2008)

You can't please everyone, plain and simple. At the end of the day we're always going to be our own worst critic, judge, jury and so forth.

To each their own in how they acquire they're ratties... unless your literally in that persons shoes and situation thats they're business. That time going back and forth on 'shoulda, coulda, woulda's' could be way more appreciated by your rats.

So long as you provide a great home, more power to you, you owe no one, especially internet personalities (which we all are), an explanation.

Aside from the back and forth, I agree wholeheartedly that any living creature no matter their role should be treated with dignity.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Did you know that people came together in the UK and protested the use of live animals as feeders and now its ILLEGAL to do so?

Did you know that 2 people got together (me and another local woman) and started up an insane rescue effort that saved 120 rats plus 4 degus and a gerbil from a "rescue" in Moncton, NB, Canada? Most of the rats travelled 1000 plus miles to get to their forever homes. When people get together, we can be very strong and effective...so don't say "never".

Its too easy to say WE can't do anything, but sadly WE are the only ones who can do something. We are the reason that Petco is revisiting their policies and reducing the amounts of animals sold in their stores (rabbits don't sell well, they don't order in more from the mills), and some have the same-sex policies as well.

One person may not affect much, but many people (if they are united) can do a lot.

Some people do not have options of rescue rats or breeders and I am fine with petstore purchases then, but its not a common thing at all, and there are always rats.

official rat rescues
local shelters
other animal shelters often take in small domestics (incl. rats)
forums (post on all of them you are looking...Goosemoose has a very extensive adoption section)
craigslist
kijiji
I have heard of rats being found on Freecycle

Once you have truly determined there are few rats in your area, go to your local petstore.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Did you read the text posted with the photos?


Yes i did, whats your point?

I don't think buying from this type of breeder is any worse
than buying pork products or battery farmed eggs.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

geebus said:


> jesirose said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read the text posted with the photos?
> ...


Her point is, that sadly those animals are considered "stock" or "food animals", and the rats are PETS...and should be treated as such.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Her point is, that sadly those animals are considered "stock" or "food animals", and the rats are PETS...and should be treated as such.


Some chickens and Pigs are pets also, its really the same thing.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Some, yes, but the real underlying reason for these pet mills is to breed pets. Not these battery style farms who breed for food first and possibly a pet second on the odd occasion.

Idealistically, people want to buy pets that are in good health and will live to an optimum age for their species. Coming into the world in those conditions (the mill) affect both of these. You expect a good personality and one that is well handled .. these conditions mean perhaps they are held twice before reaching the petshop .. once to sex and the other to stick them in the tub the travel in to the store. If you buy pets, you do so out of love. If you breed pets .. the same should apply in some way shape or form.

Measures should be put into place in all fields of animal rearing (be it pet, food or breeding) but unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be happening on a large enough scale to make much effect


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

*Going out on a limb*

I actually agree with Geebus. Destination doesn't matter. We have a fundemental obligation to the animals we've domesticated to meet their needs, whatever their needs may be. I find battery chicken farms just as disturbing as the rat mill.

I wish I could remember the quote- you are forever obligated to that which you have tamed, something like that.

We may not be able to change the world individually, but we are each accountable for our own decisions. We all have to make the ones we can live with, and should respect one another's right to do so.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

On the subject of battery farming .. a nurse at my vets absolutely loves chickens. She recently rescued some hens from a battery farm and the 15 that she took charge of came to her with absolutely no feathers and thin as rakes .. she lost 3 of them the night they came home .. the others she had to actually had to keep indoors for a little while as the cold nights would kill them  the poor things .. Things like that shouldn't be allowed to happen


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I agree Marysmuse, but this time its all about perspective...I don't think _any_ animal deserves to be neglected or abused, but we have more of a chance at changing things with Pets (because of the general perspective of society) than of the others...

I cry for them all.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Marysmuse said:


> I wish I could remember the quote- you are forever obligated to that which you have tamed, something like that.


That is one of my favorite quotes:

"You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed"
-- Antoine de Saint-ExupÃ©ry, The Little Prince

It's so true, and it's where mankind really messed up. We can't undo this mess.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Randi said:


> Marysmuse said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I could remember the quote- you are forever obligated to that which you have tamed, something like that.
> ...


That's the one, Randi! Thank you. I hate it when I "lose" quotes.

I don't think we've made a complete mess of things. I do believe change is possible. The only true defeat comes from hopelessness. Without hope, there is no change.

If each of us takes responsibility for our "circle"- our bit of the world, change is possible.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

What is the world coming to when someone agrees with Mr Geebus! - 

When i was a kid, i bought a lot of chicken that had past their peak
egg production and just kept them as pets i had a lot of fowl.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

geebus said:


> What is the world coming to when someone agrees with Mr Geebus! -


 :lol: 

Exactly!

We did the same thing, kept our layers. We had one hen, Stumpy, that lived seven years. She used to ride down the slide in my daughter's (then three-yo) lap. 

We called her Stumpy because she lost her claws to frostbite one winter after a bad freeze. I brought her into the laundry room, not really expecting her to survive, but she recovered nicely, and I found her perched on the edge of the sink in the morning. lol

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

None of the Shelters in my City...and other cities around Stamford have any rats. They just recieved hamsters and rabbits, but never any rats. So I bought my girls from Petsmart, but seeing where they came from I`m glad I could take them home and show them what love is. Not inside of some cramped ass container.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> None of the Shelters in my City...and other cities around Stamford have any rats. They just recieved hamsters and rabbits, but never any rats. So I bought my girls from Petsmart, but seeing where they came from I`m glad I could take them home and show them what love is. Not inside of some cramped ass container.


Where is Stamford - in PA? Just curious. 

(Only the above comment is for you, the rest of this is just general - not picking on anyone here)

The point a lot of us (or maybe it's just me) are trying to make is that while you did give your girls a great life, you made room for more to be bred, and those will also be living in crap conditions, maybe be bred themselves, and then sold to petsmart or petco or whatever, and whoever gets them may NOT be a good owner, or may feed them live to a snake, which most of us don't think is a good way to go.

If you adopt from a store, as in you don't buy - but adopt one that has been surrendered and needs a home - you are rescuing. When you buy from a shop to "rescue" those rats, you pay the mill. And they don't just breed enough to replace the ones you bought, they breed even more because they see a demand for them.

I love my petshop rats and I would never say they don't deserve a good home - I know they do, just as much as the ones in the shop right now do. I could go down to petco and see dozens of little rats who need homes and it hurts. But in the end I'd be funding the mills, telling them with my cash that I approve, and they'd breed more little guys - it's adding on to a vicious cycle. 



As for the pets vs. livestock part:
I think any livestock should be in good conditions - rats, pigs, chickens, cows - but if they are being bred for pets, the breeder also has a responsibility to raise them as good pets. Handling once a week does not make you a good pet raiser. If the only time the rats are handled is once a week for cleaning, it's not only bad service to the rats, it's a disservice to the customer! They need to be socialized and cared for. They also need to be kept healthy so you deliver a good product to the customer. 

Petsmart has a policy that if a product is defective within 6 months of the purchase, they will take it back, no matter what. I should have taken photos of the condition my cage was in when I returned it. But it was a poorly made product, with several flaws, which resulted in my returning it. Now, the company that made it did not properly make this product. And it's just a cage - made of metal. We're talking about living creatures being sold as a product - and the consumer has a right to get the product in the condition they pay for. You're not going in Petsmart to buy a feeder rat or a decoration you handle once a week - you're going to buy a PET and it should be a good pet, not a sick or terrified pet. 

If you want to compare pets to livestock, livestock shouldn't be kept in tiny pens and only handled once a week. When I worked on a ranch and raised my own food, I still interacted with the animals. The rabbits we had got handled every day and had lots of room. Yes, you have to remain slightly detached because it's not a pet, it's a resource, but that doesn't mean you can actually care for it and give it what it NEEDS. Not just what it needs to survive at the lowest level of existence. What is deserves. The animal gives it's life for us, and we can't even give it a decent care? No. We do. and the farms out there with the chickens in pens they can't move in, and whatever stuff like that that goes on - it's sick, just like this pet mill. They're both wrong.

And sitting back and saying that no one can make a difference, and it's just a problem we have to live with is wrong. Our country has banded together to fight for civil rights for different races. For genders. For majors. Yet people think we can't do anything to help the animals? Why? Anyone here can make a small difference, and ALL of us can make a big change.


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

Petsmart also has a policy if within 14 days if you think your pet is sick you can bring it back to the store and they will bring it to the vet and contact you when their healthy which I know isn't that big of a deal.

But when it comes to animal breeding this is my opinion and I don't want it to turn into an arguement.

A living thing is a living thing whether its a rat, chicken or a dog. I believe that if you buy from a pet store you're just making more room for animals to be bred. 

If you eat a piece of chicken you're just increasing the amount of chickens to be killed in the factory. 

Chickens and cows shoudn't be bred just for food and a lot of the time their in A LOT WORSE OF A CONDITION than any pet store breeders. 

I personally believe it's hypocritical to be mad at pet store breeders and than go eat some meat.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

> Make sure your breeder is a good one, because a lot of people I know went that route and their breeder rats ending up sicker than their regular rescues.


be very careful! my bribery is 16 months old. i got him from a breeder at 5 weeks old. on his father's side for 3 generations they have rats that have lived 3-4 years. the mother's background was unknown. she's dead, died under 1 year old, from a resp infection. she had 10 babies including bribery. 6 of them are dead, all from resp infections. most before 1 year old. belle, reachthestars rat was a sister from the same litter to bribery, she died at 9 months due to resp illness. bribery is dieing now. he will not see another monthday. 

i have 2 rats that were lone rescues. both were kept in a small hamster cage for their entire lives before being rescued. violet is fat and 30 months old. a sweet sweet dear. always licking and giving kisses. Stewart has funny saggy old man skin. he loves to watch movies with me as i scratch his shoulders. stew has had some resp issues in the past that with some basic meds cleared up wonderfully. violet had a tumor removal at 13 months and it has never recurred. other then that and a mite infestation, she's been completely healthy (though a little over weight now that she's older). they were rescues. recycled rats. they show no signs of stopping and they are 2 1/2 years old. bribery is 1yr and 4 months and will see no more, he was a breeder bred rat. his father's lines are wonderful, his mother's was unknown and turns out to be crap. i didn't research enough. 

i have done more research though. turns out, NONE in canada stand up. they "Cross" out to unknown lines (store stock). i still want to get a breeder bred rat, but now i have to look at ratteries that will ship from the states and THAT leaves a sour taste in my mouth. shipping is dangerous. i still want one though i may never have one. 

my other options? rescue. the martimes are CHALK FULL of rats in need. and still there are people "breeding" here. there are so many that need homes and i just don't have the room. i particpated in the rat train. i fostered 6 boys and 1 girl. i adopted 2 of the fosters, one when her other home fell through and 1 due to a heart condition that means he was not fit for travel (and i'm allergic to him but we make it work). i adopted 2 others from that as well (the two that i had planned to adopt in the first place). in another couple weeks we'll be fostering another 2 rats. i stopped in the pet store today and saw a beautiful boy with a head tilt. it took a lot but i left him behind and have the numbers to call to hound the store to make sure he gets treated and not fed away. 

however, during the train there was another rescue happening in NY with 100 pews. some of the train rats ended up in NY because there weren't enough rats for all the adopters. the maritimes are saturated to the point that the people here are drowning trying to help. in other areas there are more adopters then there are rats. so it is possible that some places don't have rescues. but if you ask around there are trains that can be made. there are options though some may take some time. 



on the topic of people getting mad at pet stores but still eating meat. 

i'm mad at both. neither show the proper respect to life in all its forms. are all meat farms worse then all pet mills? nope. some are worse then some, others are better then some. this mill was a "high end" mill. they were clean. there are meat farms that are clean as well. there are pet mills that are flithy and their animals are sick, just as there are for meat farms. given enough pressure both will change though. there was a time when women were property, where skin color dictated worth. people got mad, they pushed. there is still descrimination. but its not as bad as it used to be and there is still pressure for even more equality and change. it doesn't happen overnight. and it takes a lot of people to be united on the same goal. we can be effective. even when things seem so much bigger if we all get together we can break a wall.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

I haven`t checked to see if there are any breeders in my area, maybe i will do so now. But what do we do about the rats in the pet-stores. Sitting their staying out from glass containers out to people who think they're absolutely disgusting? I wonder what ever happened to the other rats I never bought, besides the two that i picked. The beautiful blue rat sisters sitting there being ignored by families who want nit-picky hamsters, and petrified gerbils, and Guinea Pigs who look like they could care less. What happens to them? What do they go back, for more breeding, sent back to be killed? I understand, get them from a breeder, it might be the safest way to go. Get them from the shelter, because they need nice homes and they need to be saved. But what happens to the ones who've been put through that **** and now look for humans the finger-smudged glass', only wanting to be taken home, and made to be loving family members. I blame society for being so god damned ignorant about rats. Not only rats, but bunnies, and Guinea pigs, and all types of rodents. Animals are not play things, and they only reason they don't get respect is because they can't open their mouth and complain. I've seen videos, and pictures, and I am disgusted. I feel compelled to do something about it


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

What are people suppose to do? Like me? If there are no breeders? Travel over a few states to buy rats? I`m unlucky where i live because of the people who live here..and 89% of the people I know are disgusted by my rats. Where do I turn, if I can't take them out of being in a pet store, where they probably got sent back to because NO one bought them?


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

twitch said:


> > Make sure your breeder is a good one, because a lot of people I know went that route and their breeder rats ending up sicker than their regular rescues.
> 
> 
> be very careful! my bribery is 16 months old. i got him from a breeder at 5 weeks old. on his father's side for 3 generations they have rats that have lived 3-4 years. the mother's background was unknown. she's dead, died under 1 year old, from a resp infection. she had 10 babies including bribery. 6 of them are dead, all from resp infections. most before 1 year old. belle, reachthestars rat was a sister from the same litter to bribery, she died at 9 months due to resp illness. bribery is dieing now. he will not see another monthday.
> ...



Teehee..i wrote before i read.
I understand, thanks.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> What are people suppose to do? Like me? If there are no breeders? Travel over a few states to buy rats? I`m unlucky where i live because of the people who live here..and 89% of the people I know are disgusted by my rats. Where do I turn, if I can't take them out of being in a pet store, where they probably got sent back to because NO one bought them?


You need to meet more people then  

Where do you live?


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> I haven`t checked to see if there are any breeders in my area, maybe i will do so now. But what do we do about the rats in the pet-stores. Sitting their staying out from glass containers out to people who think they're absolutely disgusting?


You LEAVE them. This is the kindest thing you can do, because you are preventing more babies being born in to horrific conditions. You are not playing in to the "supply/demand" game, and this is by far the best thing you can do to do your part in getting the rat mills to cease to exist.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

If you do have to buy from a petstore .. remember not all petstores get rats from mills etc. Many of them (usually the smaller ones) take on animals from hobby breeders etc .. so at the very least you can grill the petshop on where they actually purchase their rat and learn a little about the conditions there by research, word of mouth etc

It's not ideal .. but not everyone has access to rescues and breeders. At least you can make an informed decision regarding the purchase of the rat, to make as damned sure as you can that mills (such as the ones shown) are avoided and the pet shops selling animals from those conditions are boycotted.


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## cami+honey+zelda (Jul 2, 2008)

can i make a e-mail link of this i want more people to know about this


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

sure, you're welcome to share this in discussions.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

SamAnthrax said:


> Chickens and cows shoudn't be bred just for food and a lot of the time their in A LOT WORSE OF A CONDITION than any pet store breeders.
> 
> I personally believe it's hypocritical to be mad at pet store breeders and than go eat some meat.


Yes, i agree its hypocritical alright - although i avoided using that word
didn't want to "ruffle any feathers" so to speak -  .

I do eat battery farmed eggs- but when the option to buy free range 
eggs is available i take it.

IMO when you compare the condition the rats in the photos in this thread
are kept in they're living in paradise compared to battery hens..  
A rat is more accustom to living in a small space rasing a litter.. the photos
show enough room to move freely - unlike the hens  who dont even
have a substrate just a life sitting on wire


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

And a photo of the way most meat pigs are grown - for perspective
compare the size enclosure these pigs have not even able to turn around.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I might also add, pigs are extremely intelligent animals
very much comparable to a pet dog.. they can even
be trained to follow commands... (perhaps jules could
elaborate on this??)


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## MariHxc (May 23, 2007)

i work with pigs.. three of which are going to go to the slaughter house once they're ready.. and i'm SO glad they have room to move and run around instead of being someplace where they can't even turn around..

same goes for the cows that i work with. 

that's the exact reason i'm a vegetarian.. i want to be a vegan, but i just can't right now.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

My fiancÃ©, my 4yo son, and I drove 3 hours to get my ratters. Went from San Jose to Sacramento. For us, the 6 hours round trip was better than going to petsmart or petco. We are getting another rat in a month born 7/3/08 a little closer (1 hour round trip) but for me the longer drive was worth it. She was wonderful and my boys are thriving. Two happy little siamese boogers named Curly and Moe and the new boy...a chocolate point Siamese will be named Larry completing the set 

We will get another rat eventually too when I see a great breeder with himilayans but from a great breeder I trust, not pet stores not deserving of my trust.

On the other hand...I lived in Ohio and had a friend who owned a petstore. I got all my rats at the time from her. She bred them herself, bred moms 2x then retired them as her own personal pets. She knew their histories and was careful and smart and housed boys and girls separately. Just do your homework first is everyones point I'm sure.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

MariHxc said:


> same goes for the cows that i work with. .


While you mention Cattle, i might add a interesting little fact, that 
American forum users might like -

Most people would know Texas is the largest state in American..

Well, in Australia we have Cattle properties (called Stations) that
are in fact bigger than the entire state of Texas, yes thats on persons
farm.. bigger than the biggest US state - 

Plenty of room the move there!! :lol:


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

Oh WOW. Really?
I live in Texas, and it is a big state. I'm in north central Texas (Dallas/Fort Worth area) and it takes SIX hours to get to the southern part of the state. ><


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

SweetLittleDelilah said:


> Oh WOW. Really?
> I live in Texas, and it is a big state. I'm in north central Texas (Dallas/Fort Worth area) and it takes SIX hours to get to the southern part of the state. ><


Yes, really, Australia in a similar size to North America, but while you have
50 odd states we only have a hand full, and we happen to have some 
seriously HUGE cattle properties.

But in contrast, population wise you leave us for dead, our ENTIRE 
population would only be equal to that of some of your largest cities
like LA for example.

Anyways.. going a little off topic, my fault... back to the mills! :?


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## sonoma (May 26, 2007)

geebus said:


> Most people would know Texas is the largest state in American...


Welllllll actually, Alaska is the largest US state with about 350,000,000 acres. (Um yeah, Iâ€™m not a geek, really!) :lol:

Edited to contribute something more on topic to this thread:

Puppy mills were mentioned, and I completely understand (and agree) that if no one bought puppies from pet stores or shady websites then the mills would be put out of business namely because they would have no other market for their â€˜product.â€™ But these rat mills will always have another market for their product via snake/reptile owners, right?

Just a thought, of course, not to suggest itâ€™s hopeless and everyone should run off to Petco and buy some rats.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Geebus teach me to trust the word of a yank!! bugger


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Sonoma said:


> Just a thought, of course, not to suggest itâ€™s hopeless and everyone should run off to Petco and buy some rats.


Ugh. Really. Yeah, that'd be cute... then they can produce 3-4 more babies in horrid conditions to replace them with. Great idea.

Just a thought: look in to adoption.


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## amandahoney (May 14, 2007)

i haven't said anything so far, because i have very strong animal rights views and i don't want to get carried away, but... isn't wrong just wrong? i mean, how does showing something worse prove that something bad isn't all that bad? it's still... bad.

yeah, i know i'm not wording this very well... but i don't think pet mills OR factory farms have to exist for us humans to go on dominating the planet. i actually find it way easier to refrain from supporting factory farms (i buy local eggs from a nearby ranch and i don't eat meat or dairy) than i find it to refrain from buying supplies from places that also sell pet-mill pets. the options are even fewer.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

amandahoney said:


> i mean, how does showing something worse prove that something bad isn't all that bad? it's still... bad..


It serves to put it in perspective - i don't think the conditions those rodents
are farmed in are anywhere near the conditions suffered by other farmed
animals like the pigs pictured, in fact the more i look at them the more 
reasonable they're conditions seem, they can move around freely and 
have a comfortable substrate - neither of which is afforded to battery hens
or pigs in grow out sheds.

It also serves to bring into understand that everyday items like pork products
and eggs are what drives such methods, i ate some bacon and eggs today
its highly likely the farming methods in the hen and pig photos were the
methods used to provide my bacon and eggs on toast.

It pays to think logically and leave emotions at the door on such issues IMO.
A bleeding hearts tend to cloud thoughts of of logic and reason.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

geebus said:


> It serves to put it in perspective - i don't think the conditions those rodents
> are farmed in are anywhere near the conditions suffered by other farmed
> animals like the pigs pictured, in fact the more i look at them the more
> reasonable they're conditions seem, they can move around freely and
> ...


I would like to know where you got that impression. Room to move around? Huh? How do you figure that? I'd love to hear that logic, if you don't mind.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

Well they DO have room to move around. The pigs are in gates so they can't even turn. The rats, while cramped, can not only turn around but play with eachother. They mate in those tubs. Show me a pig that can mate in those gates they can't move in. The most moving they can do is ONE single step forward or backward.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

i just came back from Petsmart, and they have all the rats in the back,...the guy says they have A LOT of rats that are in QT in all different colors...i`m like awwww don't tell me that! ...i do want to see what they look like, but i wont buy them =\


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

AceYourFace said:


> ledzepgirl16 said:
> 
> 
> > AceYourFace said:
> ...


LoL, was it that confusing?


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

The boy at the petstore was like, "Oh you're doing a good thing, because not a lot of people buy rats here..." i`m like....uhuh...wasn't buying them, just wanted to see them. I checked a couple of sites, and i have't seen any in the CT area...Don't believe I have even seen on in NY. Maybe i`ll call around.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Kellye said:


> Well they DO have room to move around. The pigs are in gates so they can't even turn. The rats, while cramped, can not only turn around but play with eachother. They mate in those tubs. Show me a pig that can mate in those gates they can't move in. The most moving they can do is ONE single step forward or backward.


I suppose you're right... if you count stepping on each other as moving comfortably. :wink: I mean, I personally only need enough room to make a 360 degree turn to consider myself comfortable as well.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> i just came back from Petsmart, and they have all the rats in the back,...the guy says they have A LOT of rats that are in QT in all different colors...i`m like awwww don't tell me that! ...i do want to see what they look like, but i wont buy them =\


Sometimes at Petsmart, they have adoptees in the back (the ones that have been dumped off). You have to ask about them, though, as they don't really make them known to the public.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

geebus said:


> amandahoney said:
> 
> 
> > i mean, how does showing something worse prove that something bad isn't all that bad? it's still... bad..
> ...


I agree with amandahoney, they are all BAD, but really if you wanted to discuss battery farming of livestock why don't you create a new thread instead of comparing it to rat mills?

We are discussing rat mills in this thread, and need to stay on topic.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

boycotting pet store rats is no better. The rat mills will just sell them as feeders or for other reasons that are just as bad. The rats people suggest we don't buy need homes too and humans to love them. It is horrible that they are produced this way but JUST as horrible that the ones in pet store that don't sell are frozen alive or gassed for feeding purposes. There just is no happy medium and no amount of fighting it here will change it. Instead of arguing with eachother here why not petition pet stores and the mills we hate to stop the cruelty? Telling eachother stuff we already know and fighting amongst ourselves isn't saving a single rat and isn't what this is all about?!


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Kellye - if we stop buying from pet shops, more people will not buy snakes. They will have to produce less stock. They won't keep ordering the same quantity if no one buys them, and the mills will breed less and less. They may even start to go out of business, which is the whole goal. Not everyone thinks ALL feeder breeding is bad - I think it's okay if the rats are treated well (better than the mill) and humanely killed. That's just me though and it's another topic as well, IMO.

It's not about saving a single rat. It's about making a difference in how all pet rats are raised. It's about ALL the rats and the rat fancy as a whole.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

All I have to say is that I'm glad I chose the rats I did because they have brought joy to my life, and have no regrets about buying from a pet store but will not do it again.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> I agree with amandahoney, they are all BAD, but really if you wanted to discuss battery farming of livestock why don't you create a new thread instead of comparing it to rat mills?
> 
> We are discussing rat mills in this thread, and need to stay on topic.


Lilspaz,

I think im very much on topic, but ill start a new topic on it all the same -

All the various rodents shown in those photos are "livestock" they're being
"farmed" and at the end of the day its a "product".

Now, if you for what ever reason don't like this method of production don't
support the supply - like others have said don't buy your "pet" rats from them
if they've been produced in a "mill", thats fine, good for you - 

But, in a lot of cases i imagine the majority of a rodent mills product isn't
destined for the "pet rat" trade, rather destined for the food trade.. and
this isn't just for snakes -rats are a staple food source for many pets.

Basically the mill exists to produce a product in the most efficient manner
and what you see in those photos is a efficient method of production for
commercial breeding of rodents - now here in Australia rodents for snake
food are in HUGE demand and command high price - if no one EVER 
purchased a "pet rodent" again it wouldn't put any mill out of business...

Now that said, what kind of alternative methods for efficient mass breeding
of rats would you suggest..?

Its very easy to condemn but its better to be part of the solution.... now 
if you yourself set-up a aesthetically nicer "mill" and under-cut the mills
you didn't think much of - that would be in my honest opinion the only 
way to cripple the industry - but im not sure you could run a productive
breeding facility with a "pet rat" mind set.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

First off, I want to point something out:



Mimzy said:


> I blame society for being so god damned ignorant about ratst


We've had more than one mod reading and responding to this thread. I had a post edited earlier this week for using the word "ass", which is a completely PG term, but someone else can drop the GD bomb. Okay, that's fair, sure.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'll just say that I drove 3 hours one way to get Gracie and Lilah from a rescue. One hour one way to get Emma. I've never bought from a pet store, and never will. It breaks my heart to see them in the conditions they are, too. But I won't support something financially that I don't agree with. It's a matter of standing up for your personal ethics and not being a hypocrite. Period. 

And as for the people saying: "I can't afford gas for a _one hour_ trip." That's $50, tops, if you've got a truck. For a more fuel efficient vehicle, you're looking at closer to $20. If you can't afford twenty bucks, you can't afford rats. It's that simple.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm 15 years old and cannot drive. Is that excuse enough, Jules?


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

What Jules is saying is that if you can't afford 20.00 in gas for someone to drive you then how could you afford money for food, vets, cages, toys, etc. All the things that a rat needs. 20.00 isn't bad for gas and not many people will tell you they wont drive you somewhere if you offer up the gas money for the drive even at 15. He's not starting a fight, just stating fact


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

geebus, you must be new. Me? BUY a rat? 
I am the one who takes in rescues personally and finds rats for others. I take in those 2nd hand feeders and petstore rats. I take in those rats about to be euthanized at shelters, or dumped outside to be "free".

What you are saying IS the issue, that these PETS are being treated as product, which most people are NOT aware of. Hence this thread. I am sure there are a few people who have read (but may not have posted) that will not go into a petstore and buy a rat without thinking of this first.

Most rats from the mills go into the pet industry because that is where the money is to be had. The rat may only be $10 at the petstore, but you get 2, $20...then there's the terrible/small cage they talk you into for another $60 or more, then food, bedding, etc...buy 2 rats, spend at least $100 plus as only the initial outlay.
The feeder industry don't care as much so the rats are much cheaper. Those blues, dumbos and doublerexes that people fall in love with and bring home are the draw and the money-makers.

I think any animal mill is wrong...and I think they should all be abolished, not made more efficient :roll:

I definitely do my part. I take in and rehome a lot of rats that would otherwise die...I educate newer owners which is my responsibility towards the rat owners of the future, I am here for anyone who needs to PM me for advice or just reassurance, as I am sure a lot of people can attest to. I have figured out ways to get toys, bedding and food from pet supply only places, or elsewhere. Everyone making a small difference adds up. Defeatist attitude doesn't do anyone any good.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Kellye said:


> What Jules is saying is that if you can't afford 20.00 in gas for someone to drive you then how could you afford money for food, vets, cages, toys, etc. All the things that a rat needs. 20.00 isn't bad for gas and not many people will tell you they wont drive you somewhere if you offer up the gas money for the drive even at 15. He's not starting a fight, just stating fact


Just an fyi... 

Jules is a girl.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Most rats from the mills go into the pet industry because that is where the money is to be had. The rat may only be $10 at the petstore, but you get 2, $20...then there's the terrible/small cage they talk you into for another $60 or more, then food, bedding, etc...buy 2 rats, spend at least $100 plus as only the initial outlay.
> The feeder industry don't care as much so the rats are much cheaper. Those blues, dumbos and doublerexes that people fall in love with and bring home are the draw and the money-makers.
> 
> I think any animal mill is wrong...and I think they should all be abolished, not made more efficient :roll:.


All the extra products are all fine and good for *petstore* profits, but the "mill"
doesn't get a slice of it.

~How many people buy 10 or 20 "Pet Rats" every week? none i would imagine
but 10-20 a week is a fairly common amount to buy for feeding
a modest collection of snakes/lizards.


Also, if your implying i have a defeatist attitude you couldn't be further from
the truth, i just don't share your opinion, and look at things in greater
perspective than you seem to be doing on this issue.


I just think its totally laughable when people think not buying Rats from
a pet shop will close Rodent breeding mills- the only way you could
possibly shut them down is being competitive, and it doesn't seem anyone
is will to do so.

And for the record, the photos on this thread just show a excellent breeding
set-up, the conditions the animals are maintained in look fine... 
And as far as quality of pet rat produced, no doubt the mill sells 
the rats as weanling's, if the petshops responsibility to do the rest.

Rejoicing in the Day - 

Geebus!!


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## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

First off, Jules is correct. If you can't afford $20 in gas, how are you going to afford the $40 vet visit fee, $60 in medications, and $80-$200 for surgeries. You can't, and you don't need to be owning any animal that you can't provide for.

And geebus, you seem to have no idea about reptiles if you think that a rodent mill can continue to produce the numbers that they do and still make a profit if they aren't selling to the pet trade. Reptiles do not eat that much, or that many, within any given time frame. Some larger reptiles eat *maybe* once a month, if not less. The types and juveniles that eat more than this are often too small to eat your average sized feeder. More and more reptile enthusiasts are trying to make the switch over to frozen feed. Now explain to me the booming business of feeder breeding with that sort of market. You can't. It could no longer support itself as it stands.

The *pet* industry is what these people are selling to, and making their profit on. Places like Petsmart, Petco, even the Mom & Pop type stores, they all buy these rats for minimal cost, since the mills have bare bones expenses. Even those shops that sell only feeders are realizing there's a whole untapped market within the pet industry for them, because people come in and buy the feeders as pets. Then the stores ask their supplier for the "pretty" rats, to entice even more people to come in and buy them as pets. Thus, they are increasing their production, breeding even more rats to supply this sudden demand. A feeder can be sold for anywhere between $2-$5, depending on size and location. A pet rat, which is the exact same as the feeder, is sold for around $10-$15. Who do you think they're making a profit on?

For everyone saying that boycotting pet stores, or at the very least refusing to buy animals there, just won't work.. You seriously need to stop being so short sighted. You may have "saved" one rat, but you've just killed 4 more. You've caused another 3mo female to be bred because she has the markings that are in demand. You've killed 20 more. You've caused an entire litter to be born with Megacolon, because blazes and caps are "pretty", and what do they care that the disease is carried on those genes. The rat mills will simply toss them into the trash, dead or alive. There's another 40 or so. Now tell me that one life is worth the lives of all the others. Can you honestly look at some of those pictures and say that your rat is worth more than those still left behind?

For those of you saying that the herp industry will always be in demand of feeders.. Yes, they very well might. Unless people are more proactive on selling frozen, of promoting it as the best way to feed reptiles. Then maybe it will change. If the pet industry is no longer in such a high demand, these feeder breeders will have to limit their numbers, at the very least. Thousands of rats will not be born, tortured, and die a slow miserable death. How is that not worth it?

The puppy and kitten mills were the same. People wanted the dogs and cats like in the movies, or the Fad breeds. When people understood and realized what was actually going on, that these animals were being tortured, they boycotted. They stopped buying from them in order to prevent them from breeding yet another litter of pets that most of which would ultimately die in a 2'x2' cage. No, it didn't solve itself overnight, but it made a difference. It made such a difference that these days if you mention a puppy mill, people look disgusted and get angry. They say things like, "How could someone do that to an animal?!" Why should rats be any different for us? No, they're not a mainstream pet, but we all know their worth. More and more people are finding out every day how amazing these little guys are as pets. They deserve the same sort of diligence as was given to the other pets.


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## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

geebus said:


> Also, if your implying i have a defeatist attitude you couldn't be further from
> the truth, i just don't share your opinion, and look at things in greater
> perspective than you seem to be doing on this issue.
> 
> ...


If that's your attitude on the care and housing of rats, then why are you on a rat forum that promotes the exact opposite of that? The general rule is 2 square feet of space per rat. If you think that rodent bins are "excellent breeding setups," you seriously don't need to be owning rats. Unless you're just being like this on purpose in order to upset people, at which point you're just a troll.


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## amandahoney (May 14, 2007)

geebus said:


> And for the record, the photos on this thread just show a excellent breeding
> set-up, the conditions the animals are maintained in look fine...
> And as far as quality of pet rat produced, no doubt the mill sells
> the rats as weanling's, if the petshops responsibility to do the rest.


you surprise me, having that attitude as a pet owner. why do you have pets? do you have them to maintain them at the absolute minimum cost to you?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Let's keep this clean please. This is a discussion of different opinions not a reason for personal attacks. 

On topic though; if you cut the ties between supply and demand, it is perfectly possible to at least cut down the amount of rats that are being bred in poor conditions. 

It may not be completely erradicated in our lifetime, but we can set the foundations for the change happening.


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## amandahoney (May 14, 2007)

Ration1802 said:


> It may not be completely erradicated in our lifetime, but we can set the foundations for the change happening.


well-said...

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world." (ghandi)


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

:lol: 

A totally off-topic aside- Gee, you've quoted Lilspaz, and tacked on my tag line- Rejoicing in the day.

Have you confused us? (sorry Lil!) 

Rejoicing in the day, 
("This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it", in case you're wondering why I sign that way.) 
-Mary


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I posted this thinking it was sticky material btw.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

Marysmuse said:


> Kellye said:
> 
> 
> > What Jules is saying is that if you can't afford 20.00 in gas for someone to drive you then how could you afford money for food, vets, cages, toys, etc. All the things that a rat needs. 20.00 isn't bad for gas and not many people will tell you they wont drive you somewhere if you offer up the gas money for the drive even at 15. He's not starting a fight, just stating fact
> ...


Why is it everyone thinks I'm a guy? I thought "Jules" gave it away, as that's a fairly common nickname for "Julie".


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Jules is a fairly common boy's name... Version of Julian.

You see.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

> Reptiles do not eat that much, or that many, within any given time frame. Some larger reptiles eat *maybe* once a month, if not less.


Most reptiles eat every 7 days and many eat more than one feeder item per feeding. My juvenile ball python, for example, can eat 2-3 adult mice every week and he's only about 28" long (quite small compared to many other reptiles). Many people have enormous collections with thousands of reptiles too so that quickly adds up.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything but I thought I would point that out. 



> For those of you saying that the herp industry will always be in demand of feeders.. Yes, they very well might. Unless people are more proactive on selling frozen, of promoting it as the best way to feed reptiles.


The herp industry will always demand feeders. Reptiles cannot be fed alternatives (ever heard of snake sausages? Probably not, right? They exist but the reason many have never heard of them is because, unfortunately, they just don't work). And frozen feeders are still feeders so whether they are alive or frozen, they are still in demand and coming from the same source.

With all that said, I still maintain (as a keeper of both reptiles and rodents) that all rodents, including those destined to be feeders, should be kept in clean, spacious conditions and treated with care and respect. In fact, _all_ animals, whether they're rats, chickens, pigs or whatever else, should be kept in suitable conditions, no matter what they're going to be sold for. Their destination and purpose really shouldn't even matter.

And I am 100% for the humane alternative of feeding frozen over live, as I've said. I am personally trying hard to make that transition out of respect for both my snake and the rodents.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

javakittie said:


> And geebus, you seem to have no idea about reptiles if you think that a rodent mill can continue to produce the numbers that they do and still make a profit if they aren't selling to the pet trade. Reptiles do not eat that much, or that many, within any given time frame. Some larger reptiles eat *maybe* once a month, if not less. The types and juveniles that eat more than this are often too small to eat your average sized feeder. More and more reptile enthusiasts are trying to make the switch over to frozen feed. Now explain to me the booming business of feeder breeding with that sort of market. You can't. It could no longer support itself as it stands..


Java,

Don't be too quick to assume what i do or don't know... 8) 

I actually know a fair bit about reptiles in general, and particularly 
the husbandry of Australian Pythons, in fact im looking after a small
collection of them for a relative atm, so i consider myself pretty 
"in the know".

Firstly, your comments on feeding schedules is totally off the mark.
Even medium sized Boids (Boas and Pythons) are fed typically weekly
for the duration of the year in captivity.
Snakes such just as colubrids (corn snakes etc) have even faster metabolic rates.
I cant only assume your getting your feeding ideas from animal planet or
something dealing with wild animals not captives, also worth noting species
that will eat only a few times a year will be eating HUGE prey items, Goats
Pigs etc... im talking medium sized rats here...

Moving right along, im also confused about your reference to feeders and
frozen defrosted food - whats the difference.. they're one in the same.
Frozen rats are bred in what people call "Mills" and they're most defiantly 
worth big bucks - there loads of people breeding rats exclusively for 
reptile keepers, frozen rats for me to purchase cost a lot.. i don't actually
feed rodents to any of the pythons here though.

I really cant understand how you could think someone wouldn't be able
to stay in business breeding and selling feeders exclusively - hundreds
of people do it exclusively - geezzuss if i wanted to i would make a fortune
myself doing it even just selling to a small amount of people... the demand
is far greater than the supply can handle currently... in fact i cant even get
a supply of feeders even at the asking price of up to $25 per frozen adult
rat!! 8O
..
:lol: So.. what were you saying about me not knowing anything..?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

amandahoney said:


> geebus said:
> 
> 
> > And for the record, the photos on this thread just show a excellent breeding
> ...


Yes, i have pets - i don't keep them for profit though, thats the difference
im not trying to farm anything for a return (these days).


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Kathleen said:


> Reptiles cannot be fed alternatives.


First off im glad you made the post - i agree with everything you have
written except that one above quote.

Ive also heard of the "snake sausages" and also the limited success
with them as a staple food item for various snake species.

Anyways, i dont want to go off topic, so ill start a thread dedicated 
to alternatives to Rodents as a staple food item for Reptiles.

Rejoicing in the Raindbow

-Geebus.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You must be new to the rat "industry" as pets then. Its very well known that the better a pregnant/lactacting mom is fed, the healthier overall the offspring, with genetic issues aside. The babies should be socialized young making them more desireable to owners, which rarely happens. These rats are not handled often and end up skittish in petstores Most petstores do not handle the babies or feed them properly so you end up with rats that did not get the best start in life at all. Some luck out, but most do not.

This mill as I have stated is a GOOD one...the majority would never let you in the doors with a camera...can you imagine them??


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

lilspaz,

Well im glad we can agree on that being a good mill.

Not sure what your trying to convey with your comment
on healthier offspring being Dependant on the mothers
food intake, im not at all disagreeing on it, maybe that
was directed at someone else.

Also, worth noting, i don't like petshops in general as a
general rule (although exceptions exist) ive found them
to largely sell low quality animals at huge prices and also
don't seem able to give accurate advice on husbandry.

If i buy a pet, i prefer to deal directly with the breeder.

Anyways, i hope i havn't offended too many people with
my views being "against the grain" so to speak.. i know
my opinion isn't a popular one.


Rejoicing in the shadow of a Nordic sunset.

-geebus


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## CaptainFlow (May 16, 2007)

geebus said:


> lilspaz,
> 
> Well im glad we can agree on that being a good mill.
> 
> ...


I think lilspaz was saying that is it COMPARATIVELY a "good" mill, meaning, better than many of the others that would allow no photos or visitors at all, in fear of the public outcry that *should* result in reaction to seeing the terrible conditions these animals are kept in. 

I do not, cannot agree with the exploitation of animals for human profit. Yes, they can be destined as feeders, and yes, it will cut into the profit, which heaven forbid the profit be sacrificed for the little things like humane treatment. But every animal deserves more than the minimal conditions to keep them alive.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

> Ive also heard of the "snake sausages" and also the limited success
> with them as a staple food item for various snake species.


Yeah, some people can get their snakes to eat them but it's a big challenge for a lot because it's difficult to get a few species to eat at all. I don't think the amount of snakes that will eat them will ever compare to the amount that eat rodents... especially because I don't even know many snake owners that would try them. They're not taken very seriously in a lot of circles. 

Also, I know that some snakes eat fish, birds, frogs and other such things but it depends on the species and what they've imprinted on. 

But back to our regularly scheduled topic.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

*sigh* OK, we all know rat mills are wrong. Do we still have to talk about it??? It only makes me sad. And besides, just talk about it on this forum isn't going to help the rats. Maybe go to a local pet store, and put up a poster saying "FREE THE RATS"!!! lol. Letting locals know would probably be a better use of this topic. Don'tcha' think?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

2boysloose said:


> *sigh* OK, we all know rat mills are wrong. Do we still have to talk about it??? It only makes me sad. And besides, just talk about it on this forum isn't going to help the rats. Maybe go to a local pet store, and put up a poster saying "FREE THE RATS"!!! lol. Letting locals know would probably be a better use of this topic. Don'tcha' think?


Discussing it and getting as many points across as you can is a good method of education. Not only to those participating right now but also those who may come across this thread in the future.

I've learnt a lot from this thread, I hope others have too. There is a lot of information to process, take away and re-educate others with. Hence the point of a forum really


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I know, I know, I was just kidding. But I still am going to make a poster for the pet sores.... lol.


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## sonoma (May 26, 2007)

Randi said:


> Ugh. Really.
> Just a thought: look in to adoption.


Looking into fostering, thank you. No need to be snarky. 

I was making an observation (perhaps not well worded?) itâ€™s my understanding there is a larger market for rats as feeders than as pets so the puppy mill analogy is bust, demand will decrease slightly, but the mills wonâ€™t go away and conditions in them wonâ€™t improve. Now maybe if laws similar to those in the UK were passed â€¦to bring back the much used puppy mill analogy in a different light; puppy lemon laws have made a bigger dent in the problem than boycotting has from what Iâ€˜ve seen. For example, in my area the last stores that sold puppies either stopped carrying them or went out of business entirely within the past couple years. :?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

what is puppy lemon laws?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Puppy lemon laws (or simply pet lemon laws) allow a pet owner to return a sick, dying, or dead animal. It doesn't protect the animals, but if all the animals get returned the store stops carrying from that mill.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i don't know if i would be able to return an ill or dead pet... i had rats that were sick (sweetipie is chronic and sweet-ums died suddenly after only beinghome 5 days) but i could never abandon sweetipie there and it feels almost the same giving them the body. they went through enough, they deserve a proper resting place at least. that likely doesn't help much though.... :/


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Oh, I understand, once I have an animal, I am emotionally attached to them. They are my baby!

But many people who purchase these animals buy them on impulse and either don't want them or want them as an accessory.


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

Kathleen said:


> Most reptiles eat every 7 days and many eat more than one feeder item per feeding. My juvenile ball python, for example, can eat 2-3 adult mice every week and he's only about 28" long (quite small compared to many other reptiles). Many people have enormous collections with thousands of reptiles too so that quickly adds up.
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with you or anything but I thought I would point that out.


***** This is true in some respect. Most snakes when young do eat once a week but once they reach a particular size (usually 30 inches with Balls) feeding schedule should be 10 to 14 days. Snakes in the wild rarely get to eat every single week and snakes in a tank just do not get to 'hunt' nor get the exercise it needs to not become obese when not on a proper feeding schedule.

I did read where you said you would not be feeding rats and will stick to Mice only. Balls can and do well with feeding strictly mice but feeding that many in a 7 day time period does sound a bit excessive to me. It appears a larger pray item is in order. 

Must remember, snakes take several days to digest their food 3 to 5 days depending on the temperature. Feeding to often not only leads to overweight animals but also breaks down and actually overworks and harms their digestive systems. *



> For those of you saying that the herp industry will always be in demand of feeders.. Yes, they very well might. Unless people are more proactive on selling frozen, of promoting it as the best way to feed reptiles.


The herp industry will always demand feeders. Reptiles cannot be fed alternatives (ever heard of snake sausages? Probably not, right? They exist but the reason many have never heard of them is because, unfortunately, they just don't work). And frozen feeders are still feeders so whether they are alive or frozen, they are still in demand and coming from the same source.

****I agree with you here. As much as people want to think mills breed for pets first and feeders second, this is not the case. Sure its fun to breed those pretty rats that are in high demand by pet stores BUT any snake owner (and believe me - they do!) can walk into any pet store and take home one or more 'pet' rats for their reptile at home. Most pet stores have a policy not to sell 'feeders' but the fine print basically is as long as using them as feeders is not mentioned, those rats will be sold to anyone that walks through the door.

Hairless or double rex are often in high demand for reptile owners as the fur can not be digested so they will pay those extra few bucks for them. They view it as being healthy for their snakes, better on their digestive systems, less stress. * 

to everyone:
* ***I think it was lilspaz that mention about keeping animals healthy even if they were meant for food. This I think should be very important to herp people as well. To feed a good food, to maintain clean and appropriate living conditions, right down to breeding healthy animals. Most herp people that breed their own personally do tend to maintain their feeders well but when it comes to mills and mass producing - 99% of the time they are lacking in all categories of care. I personally as a snake owner (Corn snakes and kenya Sand Boas) I would not want to feed my guys sickly feeders that lived in horrible conditions. It blows my mind that pet stores will just toss in a rat or mouse that is dying or already dead to a reptile as a meal! Itâ€™s like us eating a rotted steak sitting out on the counter for a few days. 

I do not think it should be just rat owners that complain about the conditions and the lack of proper care and health - I think reptile owners should as well. (haha what a can of worms I just opened) Why should I or anyone else have to feed sickly feeders to my snakes? Why should I or anyone else eat a burger from a cow that has sit in its own filth its whole life? I laugh at the commercials for California cheese with the pretty clean Holstein cows grazing in lush green pastures - I laugh because most and I do mean most people are dumb enough to believe that. AND that is why it is difficult for things such as improving living conditions of puppy/rat/cat/horse/mouse mills. There are still to many not so bright humans in the world that will walk down to their local pet store and buy any animal that strikes their fancy, even worse, any animal their child happens to want that week.*

*I agree with feeding frozen thawed as well. I think any reptile owner is insane to think they should be feeding alive anything to their captive pets. Thing is, most places that breed feeders and sell as frozen are just as bad as the mills that sell live to the pet stores. They still live in the same type of environment, still live in cramp quarters, still being fed crap food, still not paying attention to their genetic health, still breeding in masses. 

Through all my ramblings I think the point I am trying to make is - you need to choose your battles wisely. There are always consequences. Take the banning horse slaughtering in the US. Great!! I am all for it but sadly it hasnâ€™t stopped anything...horses are being shipped to Canada and Mexico where treatment is far worse then slaughterhouses in the US. Selling puppies in pet stores - years ago there was a huge wave of protest across the US. Sure! This worked to convince a lot of pet stores to not sell dogs but to this day, there are still 1000's of pet stores that sell puppies as well as opened a huge market for BYBs.

As perfect as the world would be if everyone viewed Rats as the best pets in the world as we all here know they are, and never be used as snake food, never be treated like they can spread the plague - the fact of the matter is, this will not happen any time soon. I doubt in any of our lifetimes. 

Iâ€™m not saying to give up and not do anything but next time someone goes into a pet store and 'looks' at the rats - inform the manager WHY you will not be buying a rat from them or any other pet store. Not buying is not enough because there are 10 people behind you willing to buy that rat. 

I envy and respect people like lilspaz who stand on the front battle lines and do their best to make a difference. She and others spend endless hours, weeks, and months educating people and helping rats. Sadly, I personally feel those that buy rats from the pet stores or BYBs just to â€˜rescueâ€™ is making rescuing just a bit harder for some. As I said earlier, mills do not care where their feeder/pet goes - they just produce it and as long as they get their money, they will continue producing more. Why not support rescuers like lilspaz and the dozen+ rat rescues across the US and Canada. Whining (yes, whining) about gas prices, traveling more then an hour, I canâ€™t find a rescue near me, I canâ€™t find a breeder near meâ€¦.does not fly. There are several rat boards on the net and thanks to a lot of people, there are a lot of resources as well. I think it is laziness for any educated person on this board or any other rat board to walk into a pet store and buy a pet. Same goes for dogs, cats, snakes, birdsâ€¦..

I am on the fence about a lot of things. We humans have made things the way they are and sadly it really stinks! Iâ€™m with Kathleen and only feed mice and not rats but until the day there is a super food to feed snakes or until breeders stop producing snakesâ€¦.rats and mice will always be the #1 food choice for herp owners whether it be live or frozen.*

(sorry for all the edits!! I was trying to get my sig correct)


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

OdysseyDesign said:


> **** This is true in some respect. Most snakes when young do eat once a week but once they reach a particular size (usually 30 inches with Balls) feeding schedule should be 10 to 14 days. Snakes in the wild rarely get to eat every single week and snakes in a tank just do not get to 'hunt' nor get the exercise it needs to not become obese when not on a proper feeding schedule.


Its often irrelevant to compare wild feeding schedules to captive animals
in regards to snakes in particular and reptiles in general.
A box isn't the wild, a python for example maintained in a constantly 
heated enclosure NEEDs more food than its wild counterpart its living
an ideal life with constant "perfect weather" 24/7 365.

Just like peoples excuse for feeding live prey is "its natural" well IMO
theres nothing natural when its in a box in your basement, its very
unnatural actually, because in the wild if the snake didnt want to eat
the rat could flee, but in a inescapable box, the rodents only option
is to defend itself - this often has horrid consequences for the snake
a rat can kill a snake with amazing ease!  its cruel for both 
animals concerned, ive never needed to feed a live rodents, and i
hightly doubt i ever will, ive also had freshly wild caught snakes 
that i never had to feed a single live prey item to - so the claims
that feeding live is some natural requirement are totally flawed. 

finally, i will add i very much agree with your comments that 
people wanting feeders are also often very fussy with the quality
of the animal also, so really dont want poorly kept and bred feeders.

Rejoicing in the mirage!


Geebus


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

OdysseyDesign said:


> The herp industry will always demand feeders. Reptiles cannot be fed alternatives (ever heard of snake sausages? Probably not, right? They exist but the reason many have never heard of them is because, unfortunately, they just don't work).


OD, I've heard that too, and I found the company that makes them, and the list of ingredients, and honestly I'm not surprised. The main complaint I've heard is that snakes fed the sausages develop MBD. Well...



> Beef, Beef Hearts, Beet Pulp, Tricalcium Phosphate, Ground Flaxseed Meal, Sodium Chloride, Collagen, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2 Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin A and D-3 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Biotin), Minerals (Iron Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.


A muscle meat in the first two ingredients, a filler, and then artificial calcium. Yeah, I'm not surprised herps fed these things get all screwed up. The Ca ratio is way off, and there's no natural calcium in the diet.

This company makes the carnivore diet for big cats and things in zoos, as well. Guess what? The ingredients are _exactly the same_ as the reptile diet. No wonder you see so many big cats in zoos with ponches swinging down from their gut.

I reeeaaally want to see if I can't develop a better carnivore diet at some point in the future. It really wouldn't be difficult to improve upon their formula. ****, just throwing in some ground bone to replace the artificial calcium and readjust the Ca ratio, and some organ meat to replace the artificial vitamin and mineral supplements, would vastly improve it. And I can't see any good reason why they haven't. Liver is cheap, and whole carcasses cost less than deboned meat. They're just lazy.


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

geebus said:


> OdysseyDesign said:
> 
> 
> > **** This is true in some respect. Most snakes when young do eat once a week but once they reach a particular size (usually 30 inches with Balls) feeding schedule should be 10 to 14 days. Snakes in the wild rarely get to eat every single week and snakes in a tank just do not get to 'hunt' nor get the exercise it needs to not become obese when not on a proper feeding schedule.
> ...


*It is very relevant to compare wild feedings with captured feedings. I agree a box is not the wild BUT a python that does nothing but stay curled up for hours/days on end and once in a while move around its tank waiting for its next meal to be fed to him should NOT be fed more then a python in the wild would be. A reptile out in the wild would be on the move (once food has digested) seeking food, heat source, shelter, etc. A python in the wild would use much more energy and in turn need more food then a captive snake in a box.*



> Just like peoples excuse for feeding live prey is "its natural" well IMO
> theres nothing natural when its in a box in your basement, its very
> unnatural actually, because in the wild if the snake didnt want to eat
> the rat could flee, but in a inescapable box, the rodents only option
> ...


*I totally agree with you here! Very well said. It bugs me to read on the herp forums someone complaining their snake refuses to eat F/T. Its a load of crap, they will....just have to work at it a bit and actually be smarter then the snake! HA hard for some humans I know.*



> finally, i will add i very much agree with your comments that
> people wanting feeders are also often very fussy with the quality
> of the animal also, so really dont want poorly kept and bred feeders.
> 
> ...


*I think instead of being so gunho about stop using rats (or other animals) as feeders or stop selling in pet stores, or stop BYBs from selling and breeding that perhaps energy should be put into working on the quality of life for rats be changed by breeders from all avenues including breeders that are considered ethical. MAYBE forcing a mill to actually use a quality food, use quality bedding, socialize, keep health records, maintain healthy genetics - just might become a little complicated for them, cost to much money, and maybe decide its not worth it?*


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

JulesMichy said:


> OdysseyDesign said:
> 
> 
> > The herp industry will always demand feeders. Reptiles cannot be fed alternatives (ever heard of snake sausages? Probably not, right? They exist but the reason many have never heard of them is because, unfortunately, they just don't work).
> ...


*HEY Jules!!! Kathleen actually posted about the sausage stuff. (I was quoting her and probably screwed it all up! lol) I agree with you though. 
I have such a huge problem with commercial diets for dogs and cats. It's the same with wild or captive animals. Sorry but a lion living in a zoo is no different then a lion in the wild and should be fed as such. Perhaps it would not eat as much due to the lack of the proper exercise that a lion in the wild would get but their dietary needs are the same. Itâ€™s the same with wolves and dogs which only have a .02% difference between their DNA (hhmm I need to look that up again and make sure I quoted the %age correctly)

BTW arenâ€™t you suppose to be inventing us a ratty pregnancy test??!!*


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

OdysseyDesign said:


> HEY Jules!!! Kathleen actually posted about the sausage stuff. (I was quoting her and probably screwed it all up! lol) I agree with you though.
> I have such a huge problem with commercial diets for dogs and cats.


Hi!!!  

Trust me, we're completely on the same page about that. People around here are well aware of my views on species-appropriate diets for dogs and cats. I'm actually considering a nutrition internship after vet school now. Oh, and, psst! It's 0.2%. :wink: 



> BTW arenâ€™t you suppose to be inventing us a ratty pregnancy test??!!


Eventually I'll get around to everything I want to do.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

> I did read where you said you would not be feeding rats and will stick to Mice only. Balls can and do well with feeding strictly mice but feeding that many in a 7 day time period does sound a bit excessive to me. It appears a larger pray item is in order.
> 
> Must remember, snakes take several days to digest their food 3 to 5 days depending on the temperature. Feeding to often not only leads to overweight animals but also breaks down and actually overworks and harms their digestive systems.


Thanks for the tips. I have done tons of research and I feed as my herp vet and several professional breeders advise and find that multiple mice works just as well as one larger prey item.  Freddie is still a juvenile and his feeding schedule will probably be bumped to every 10 days when he's a little bit older. And ball pythons generally tend to digest in about 48 hours if they are provided with a basking spot of the proper temperature. *nods*

This thread is straying a little off-topic... lol...


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

OdysseyDesign said:


> *It is very relevant to compare wild feedings with captured feedings. I agree a box is not the wild BUT a python that does nothing but stay curled up for hours/days on end and once in a while move around its tank waiting for its next meal to be fed to him should NOT be fed more then a python in the wild would be. A reptile out in the wild would be on the move (once food has digested) seeking food, heat source, shelter, etc. A python in the wild would use much more energy and in turn need more food then a captive snake in a box.*


Do you even have any experience observing wild pythons, as your statements
about the movement of wild pythons isn't the reality ive seen first hand.

Pythons in the wild don't move a great deal, they're ambush predators they're
not constantly searching for food like you think, and they sure don't eat
all year round they're at the mercy of the elements, unlike the captive
who has access to a constant supply of heat.

I know its hard for people to comprehend if they're unable to see what
im lucky enough to see on a weekly basis.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

Oh, snap. I cannot wait to see the beat down geebus is about to get. Git 'em, Ody!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Kathleen said:


> This thread is straying a little off-topic... lol...


Indeed. Let's try and keep it at least somewhat related to rat/pet mills shall we?


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

So if you don't buy them at the pet stores...or people who have snakes don't buy them...do they just get killed anyway...thrown in garbages, what?

I mean people who have snakes, don't really have a choice (never owned a snake)...but ..what, they stay in there and just keep reproducing...for someone not to buy them. So is it better to let them die in the mills and have a crappy life in a pet-store then to get them as pets? People in CT...look at me funny for having two...giving me disgusting looks and what-not. The pet-care specialist said no one really buys them. I`m sure its not because they know about this rat mill business...but because no one gives rats a chance up here ANYWAY. Not one rat breeder in CT. Sadly enough.


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

JulesMichy said:


> OdysseyDesign said:
> 
> 
> > HEY Jules!!! Kathleen actually posted about the sausage stuff. (I was quoting her and probably screwed it all up! lol) I agree with you though.
> ...


haha thanks! figures I would quote it wrong. BTW im signing up now to test ratty preg tests when you do invent it!


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

Kathleen said:


> > I did read where you said you would not be feeding rats and will stick to Mice only. Balls can and do well with feeding strictly mice but feeding that many in a 7 day time period does sound a bit excessive to me. It appears a larger pray item is in order.
> >
> > Must remember, snakes take several days to digest their food 3 to 5 days depending on the temperature. Feeding to often not only leads to overweight animals but also breaks down and actually overworks and harms their digestive systems.
> 
> ...


actually you are correct using several smaller pray items instead of one larger one (altho this could be a bit hard to do with a larger snake) as it is less stressful on the snake to digest. (you must PM me with a picture!)

I agree, venturing way off topic


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

geebus said:


> OdysseyDesign said:
> 
> 
> > *It is very relevant to compare wild feedings with captured feedings. I agree a box is not the wild BUT a python that does nothing but stay curled up for hours/days on end and once in a while move around its tank waiting for its next meal to be fed to him should NOT be fed more then a python in the wild would be. A reptile out in the wild would be on the move (once food has digested) seeking food, heat source, shelter, etc. A python in the wild would use much more energy and in turn need more food then a captive snake in a box.*
> ...


Sadly, I do not have the advantage you do to physically observe pythons in the wild but I do have the next best thing...the internet. I have come across many sites and articles that state yes they are nocturnal and they are ambush hunters BUT they are also skilled swimmers and excellent tree climbers and can and do 'hunt' for their food. Even Pythons have been found miles and miles out at sea 'hunting'. One article discussing the issue with captive bred pet Ball Pythons being released in the US, they have been tracked and often travel upwards of 20 miles a month..... Now, not all Pythons are the same, we are talking about a very large variety of snakes in the Python group and many have their own behaviors.

So yes I will still stick with my first statement that Pythons in the wild will need more food then a pet Python in a box that does not have a tree to climb, does not have a river/pond/stream/ocean to swim in, and does not have to 'hunt' for its food.

Now, to get back on to the correct topic, what brings you to a rat forum? (Friendly question, donâ€™t read anything negative into it)


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## OdysseyDesign (Aug 26, 2007)

Mimzy said:


> So if you don't buy them at the pet stores...or people who have snakes don't buy them...do they just get killed anyway...thrown in garbages, what?
> 
> I mean people who have snakes, don't really have a choice (never owned a snake)...but ..what, they stay in there and just keep reproducing...for someone not to buy them. So is it better to let them die in the mills and have a crappy life in a pet-store then to get them as pets? People in CT...look at me funny for having two...giving me disgusting looks and what-not. The pet-care specialist said no one really buys them. I`m sure its not because they know about this rat mill business...but because no one gives rats a chance up here ANYWAY. Not one rat breeder in CT. Sadly enough.


I am really not exactly sure what you are trying to ask but I will take a stab at it.

I am referring to rats (or rodents) that are ALIVE and breathing in pet stores that should not be bought by people for pets OR for food. You lost me on the rest! 

Pet care specialist is laughable especially in places like petsmart or petco. As for breeders in CT, I know of one. Also CT is a small state; you can easily travel to NY, NJ, PA, RI where there are a few reputable breeders.


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## jesirose (Feb 22, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> Not one rat breeder in CT. Sadly enough.


Yes, there are. You need to look harder


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## Jessica (Jul 6, 2008)

I adopted two boys from Petco and one boy from the Azure Ridge Rattery, and the boy I adopted from AZUR was much better tempered at first. Mrs. Garrison [from Petco] just prefers not to be held, I mean, he'll come up on my lap and let me stroke him.. but his personality is just distant. I can only imagine what happened to my boys before I adopted them. Not to mention they were "50% off".. only $2.50. Shows that they were only meant to be snake food.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

OdysseyDesign said:


> So yes I will still stick with my first statement that Pythons in the wild will need more food then a pet Python in a box that does not have a tree to climb, does not have a river/pond/stream/ocean to swim in, and does not have to 'hunt' for its food.


Not to mention, most herps require a certain body temperature to digest food. Or even to get up and moving. It's quite possible that the snakes he sees are sun bathing either to digest a recent meal, or have just woken up and are soaking up enough "juice" to get out and hunt.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

Sucks, because when i got my two rats from Petsmart (before i even knew about the mills) they little blues were 13 bucks, while the regular hooded babies were 10 dollars. I`m like...Wow. Ummm i`m not paying 13 dollars...just because their fur is different. 

And the question i was asking was...what do you people believe happens to the rats if they're not bought...like the rats that are left behind in the cages of the pet-store?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Mimzy, we feel horrible about the rats that don't get bought, but in the end its the Big Picture we have to concentrate on, as hard as it is to do.

IF people consistently stop buying at petstores, the rats won't sell, so they will order less, meaning the mills will create less for the petbuyers. The herp industry will continue on the same. But overall it means less rats produced, and then maybe we can "clean up" the homeless rat situation, which were petstore rats once or feeder rats.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

Ah I see. I see.
Well it wasn't that hard to find at least 1 in CT. In Manchester. Hopefully it will still be up and running when i move out of my moms house. So then I can have as many rats as I want. -snicker-


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## Volkl (Feb 14, 2008)

I met this woman at work who was interested in rats as pets, and had some questions for me. i told her about mine, and she asked where i got them/how much they cost. i told her a couple of mine were from a responsible breeder and i paid 25 for each. she lashed out at me and told me "who in their right mind would pay that much for a RAT? they're only 6-10 bucks at a pet store!"

ugh. i told her off and mentioned that if she wants to save 15 dollars and support mass breeding of innocent animals in poor conditions, she can go right ahead. i look forward to showing her these photos....

thanks for sharing this


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Jessica said:


> I adopted two boys from Petco and one boy from the Azure Ridge Rattery, and the boy I adopted from AZUR was much better tempered at first. Mrs. Garrison [from Petco] just prefers not to be held, I mean, he'll come up on my lap and let me stroke him.. but his personality is just distant. I can only imagine what happened to my boys before I adopted them. Not to mention they were "50% off".. only $2.50. Shows that they were only meant to be snake food.


If they were "50% off", and you bought them from the store and they came from the store's supplier, those weren't adoptions. Those were purchases. Same with buying a rat from a breeder. That's not an adoption, either.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Um... Randi, what's your problem? You have to pay to get a rat from a rescue, too. I'm pretty sure the girl isn't looking for a fight. You're making it sound like I shouldn't have my current pet store rats.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

KayRatz, let's not make this personal. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What I think Randi meant was purchasing a rat from a pet store is not considered a righteous act, as the money used to purchase said rat goes to maintain the profit of the said petstore.

Where-as the adoption fees that are charged by rescues and shelters usually go to maintain the care of the animal and to keep the rescue in the business of helping animals.

There is a grey area as to whether purchasing animals from pet stores is actually adopting or rescuing the pet. Personally, I don't think it is, as you there is a transaction taking place that ends up in someone's pocket. After all, they are there to be bought. BUT, that is because I constantly rescue (no purchase) rats from pet stores who have given them improper care, or bring in rescues from other sources. 

I'm sure to many individuals purchasing for the point of view of getting a pet, taking an animal from a tank into a big ole cushy cage can be seen as rescue or sincere adoption. It's all a matter of perspective


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> Um... Randi, what's your problem? You have to pay to get a rat from a rescue, too. I'm pretty sure the girl isn't looking for a fight. You're making it sound like I shouldn't have my current pet store rats.


Well that is my opinion... to which I feel I am entitled. And Ration did cover what I meant about the adoption fee versus the purchase price.


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Ok,I'm sorry for bringing up such a old thread,but I was looking through some of the older threads and found this.I feel like more people should see what they are supporting when they adopt animals from a pet store.


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

This is a thing there are no words for.This shows how horrible humanity can be.All this torture and pain,forced onto so many lives,for nothing but money.These animals are slaves,working to make money for their owners without choice.This is actually a"good "mill.When you "rescue" animals from a store,you give money to the people who do this and support them.They will breed several more to replace the one you rescue.For every animal bought,several more are bred and born into a life of slavery.This should be illegal,but isn't.Please don't buy animals from stores.


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

This happens to animals other than rats.


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