# Bad first few days of new rat ownership, and socialization with a younger rat



## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi all.

I first got into rodents back in 2002 when I was given an entire accidental liter of hamsters. I kept hamsters for several years, but I find them to be largely unfriendly. I tried other rodents, such as mice and gerbils. Although I have rats some time ago, I recently decided I wanted to have them again, so I went to the Pet Store, and got 1 male rat (I have tended to have better experiences with males). I had about a half hour drive, and although I checked up on the little guy a couple of times, I open the box to find that he had died of a heat stroke - he had foam all over his nose and mouth. I returned him, got 1 of the deceased rats more active brothers. Things went well at first, though it seemed like he may have been mishandled in the pet store (was very defensive about being picked up, like he had bad experiences with it before). I read on here that it was better to have them in pairs, so I got the last remaining brother, who was much more docile than the other 2. Well, today, rat number 2 escaped from his tank (I don't have enough money for a big cage, yet) and in the process of grabbing him, I grabbed him from under the desk - and perhaps I grabbed too hard, but he stopped breathing about a minute later and was dead  ! Two brothers dead with a week. So, I went to a different pet store and got a much younger (appx 6 week old) male to cage mate with my one surviving rat, who might be about 4 months old or so. 

The older one as I said was very docile and shy, he grew a little larger than his brothers, but is a gentle giant - he doesn't flinch when you pick him up or stroke his back, but he doesn't like the actual picking up part. I have slowly started to take him out and wrap him up in a towel when I sit at the computer. At first, he pooped when you brought him out, but he hasn't done this in several days so there seems to be improvement there. 

The younger, unrelated male, sleeps and eats much more, but when he is active he tends to try to bite off more than he can chew, so to speak - challenging my big boy and losing badly (I have not yet named them). They will fight, but it doesn't seem to be very serious. The little guy will go up to the big guy and start to bite his ears, to which the older one responds by pinning the younger one or forcibly cleaning him. The younger one I have started to socialize slowly by letting him sniff my hand and by petting him lightly so he starts to not fear me. I will probably not bring him out of the cage for another good month. 

Now, I know they say to socialize new rats slowly, but that wasn't an option as I don't have extra cage/tank space. Is this hierarchical type relationship between rats with such a size difference normal and healthy? When I get up in the middle of the night, I notice that the younger one is sleeping on top of the older one like he is his mother. 

The rats I had back in 2004-5, I didn't know what I was doing with and so I never properly socialized them. I ended up giving them away, but this time I would like to do this right. Thanks for any tips/comments.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, I've got to admit your off to a pretty inauspicious start. So first lets prevent any more obvious screwups. 

1) Rats die when you keep them over 82 degrees F. Period, no if's and's or but's about it. 

2) Rats are pretty durable as far as small animals go, but overall that means they are still fragile.

3) If you don't have lots of money for a big cage, start scavenging. There are some out there on trash day, there are big old aquariums that leak you can buy a cheap cover for and home depot has lots of stuff you can build a cheap cage out of. There are even large Tupperware containers that can be converted if need be. Just be creative. I did a small cage for a long time, but my rats only slept in it; they were out just about all of the time.

4) Rats are not hamsters!!! They are intelligent pack animals like dogs. You treat and train them like you would a puppy or a dog. They require that you engage them in play or other activities at least a few hours each day, just like a dog would. You socialize them, teach them their names, housebreak them and train them to be part of your family. 

Now if you were looking for a "rodent" return your rats and start with something else. If you are looking for something like a dog that's intelligent, emotional and something you can actually communicate with then read the sticky thread on top of this section of this forum called "*Immersion - The Guide*" That will teach you all you need to know to socialize your rats and manage your pack.

When I started out with rats, I didn't realize what I was getting into... They're cheap and they do look like rodents. It took me a while to realize that they were a lot more like small dogs and that they are actually metacognative, which means that they think very much like humans do. That's why so much psychology research is done on rats. If you wanted "rodents" you screwed up. If you treat your rats like rodents you are going to get bit and things are about to go from bad to worse. I suspect that's what went wrong last time you had rats. Now if you want challenging and intelligent animals that will interact with you that you can actually train you did better than you might have thought.

This is a true shoulder rat walking at heel:









This is a true shoulder rat introducing herself to a little girl for the first time:









And this is a true shoulder rat lounging around on top of a tree:









And yes, the rat went swimming with the kids on her own. Rats are not hamsters!!!!

And by the way.... Fuzzy Rat, the rat in the photos is a very very highly trained rat with a very special personality. Most rats never reach this level of ability. This rat is the only animal of any kind allowed in the vet's office without a cage or leash. 

Don't just try this with your rats, it will end up in more dead rats. But I posted the photos so you can get an idea of what a $2.49 feeder rat really can do and what rats really are all about. Don't even think about calling her a "rodent"! Most people don't even call her a rat without the words trained and fancy before the title. She has earned respect and usually gets it.

How far your rats go is up to you.

Best luck.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I mean... it's hard to say it better than Rat Daddy has said it above. So I'm not going to try. I do want to add a few simple things:

1) Make sure your boys stay cool--as mentioned above, anything above 80 degrees will kill a rat. They can't sweat or anything so heat stroke will take them quickly. Also be sure they always have access to water. Dehydration will also make them especially fragile, while might explain why your boy passed from being squeezed too hard only once. That is in no way normal, and he may have had a heart defect (many pet store rats come to you with serious health issues like that) but if you want to avoid it in the future do be sure the boys are hydrated and cool.

2) You need a bigger cage, unless you are willing to have the boys out for 70-80% of the day. A single tank is not suitable for two adult male rats, and it's not suitable for two young male rats either. Rats need to be able to climb and jump around, they need room to play, and they need lots of mental stimulation or they will become bored and most likely aggressive. I realize money is tight at the moment so keep an eye out for used cages, etc. Most importantly, make sure you have them out and play with them as much as possible. If they don't get stimulation in the cage, they should be getting it from you (which is more important anyway).  

3) Just interact with them as much as you can.


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

My ratties have taken to lounging around in my bathtub with a shallow amount of cool water in it. Many rats don't like water but I am amazed that every day they are a bit more keen on a quick dip.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

I think I may have not explained myself well enough. 

1. Rat number 1 died from the heat as a result of the drive home (in fact, the second I opened up the pet store box he was in). He did not die from any setup I have at my home (I didn't even have a chance to set up anything for him). I live about 40 minutes away from the nearest pet store, and it was about a 90 degree day here that day. 

2. By 'tank' I meant a 10 gallon aquarium. It's plenty big for 2 of them. My boys now like to kick away some bedding in the corner because the glass helps keep them cool. They do not seem to be having any problems with heat in there. I knew in the past alot of people who preferred them over cages for varying reasons (with some cages, they will kick the bedding outside of the cage, etc). I will get a large cage when money permits it, or I can find a good deal for a used one. 

3. Rat Daddy, you are being way too hard on me. I only mentioned the hamsters because that is how I got started with small rodents (I was never interested in the larger ones, such as guinea pigs or rabbits). In the entire time I owned hamsters, and I had probably 20 or more different ones, I think I managed to get 1 of them to be friendly (his name: Blondie, since he was actually a yellow-blonde color and not white), but he was later killed by one of my other hamsters. I have not kept them at all in a long time. I already had rats (5 of them, to be exact), and being that they are so much more affectionate and smart, that is why I wanted to come back to them, and have no intention of keeping any of the others again.

My guys seem content, but perhaps somewhat bored since I won't be able to get any true toys for a few weeks. I allow the larger one to climb out of the tank, as well as run around my bed room some since he has learned to stop pooping when he is outside.


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## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

Does this 10 gallon tank have a top part for the cage? a 10 gallon is not at all plenty room for a single rat, let alone 2 male rats, I even felt bad having my rats in a 40 gallon for a short period while I got them a new cage, they defiantly need a bigger, taller cage that is meant for rats, such as a cage with bars.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Daniel said:


> I think I may have not explained myself well enough.
> 
> 1. Rat number 1 died from the heat as a result of the drive home (in fact, the second I opened up the pet store box he was in). He did not die from any setup I have at my home (I didn't even have a chance to set up anything for him). I live about 40 minutes away from the nearest pet store, and it was about a 90 degree day here that day.
> 
> ...


I'm glad one of your boys is allowed to play in your room, but if they are being kept in a 10 gallon aquarium they both need to be out for most of the day. All rats need a 1-2 hour playtime (minimum) outside of their cage a day, but if there are two boys in a 10 gallon aquarium they need AMPLE time outside of it. Aquariums are not ideal for rats because they have poor ventilation so ammonia build up has the terrible effect of exacerbating respiratory issues, which they are prone to. Besides that they do need to have room to climb, as climbing is a very important part of a rattie's life and it keeps them healthy. The biggest issue, though, is that a 10 gallon aquarium is not nearly big enough for one rat, let alone two. Rats require 2 to 2.5 cubic feet of space each in order to live happily and be healthy--a ten gallon aquarium has less than 2 altogether. It is also less than 12" long, which is shorter than an adult rat. Rats require at least 16" of space on all sides in order to live comfortably. Again, I know there is nothing you can do about it immediately, but I would put that highest on your priority list in the near future. Depending on where you live someone on here could potentially help you out and get you a cage at a very inexpensive price.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, the littler one is so small (perhaps 1/4 the size of my older one) and he hasn't liked being outside of the tank, believe it or not. He wants to go back in as soon as he is out. I know it isn't ideal, it was just that the cages available locally ended up being much expensive than I had thought they would be. The larger one has free reign. He can come out whenever he wants to, and he knows how to get back in now. 

I live in the Dayton Ohio area. I should be able to have some cash to spare not this weekend, but the next one. I would appreciate it if anyone could help me out. I do not intend to do any harm to them, but also my space is somewhat limited as well.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Patientzero said:


> Does this 10 gallon tank have a top part for the cage? a 10 gallon is not at all plenty room for a single rat, let alone 2 male rats, I even felt bad having my rats in a 40 gallon for a short period while I got them a new cage, they defiantly need a bigger, taller cage that is meant for rats, such as a cage with bars.


Yes it does. I only intended this to be a temporary set up.


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## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/3880785296.html

http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/3813958557.html

http://cleveland.ebayclassifieds.co...ges-3-rat-cage-1/?ad=28404461&msg=OUT_OF_AREA

http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/3888998152.html

http://www.petco.com/product/106171/Petco-Rat-Manor-Habitat.aspx?Ntt=rat%20manor&OneResultRedirect=1


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Patientzero said:


> http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/3880785296.html
> 
> http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/3813958557.html
> 
> ...


That first one was the one I was looking at, I just hope it is still there in a week and 1/2. Even better if I could find a deal among a member here.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm trying to remember if we have anyone in Ohio--I'll keep an eye out. There are some solid ones on there, though. The first one is a GREAT rat cage, but there are also a couple I see for $20-$30 that would be suitable for two boys as well.


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