# Just placed the rat cages close together for the first time...



## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Rhona leapt at the cage bars and wont stop following Roxi and Rosie when they pass the cage. They aren't that bothered, but Rhona's fur is sticking up... I have read that this is a sign of aggression?
She is healthy by the way, just to add that in! 

They are all sleeping now, but when Roxi and Rosie went to the top level of their cage, Rhona leapt into her hammock as if to get closer to them. She stuck her nose through the bars and was pinned up against the bars. Again, her fur was sticking up.

Should I be concerned?
This is the first time they have met...


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It is a sign of hostility, yes. Beware intros when you try them. Be very careful. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Brilliant. This will be interesting! My first time as well... >.<


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

If she attacks one of them, how would I go about breaking up the fight? Because I know that if I go to intervene, i'll probably get bitten :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Make sure to take them to a very neutral area. It may just be cage possessiveness. I would do it as soon as you have time, rather than let her work herself into a frenzy. 
Keep a restraining hand near her (hand towel too!) and be ready. It'll be hard to know is this an attack or normal dominance, so watch her hair and lunge bites and any biting around the rump. Choose your submissive girl first. Don't leave the room or let them get out of sight for a moment. 

My Caius attacks any and all things that rest against her cage or suddenly intrude. But she is fine once out of "her" territory. 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

hrl20100 said:


> If she attacks one of them, how would I go about breaking up the fight? Because I know that if I go to intervene, i'll probably get bitten :/


Hve a hand towel ready and pluck one straight up and out of the ball. Or, if possible you can always knock the rat off the other (bowl her over). 

Don't let non hostile dominance go unchecked either. Make sure that no one bullies without your intervention. Pet firmly and always use a confident voice. 

You are the parent here so be firm and instruct your children to share and play nice. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Make sure to take them to a very neutral area. It may just be cage possessiveness. I would do it as soon as you have time, rather than let her work herself into a frenzy.
> Keep a restraining hand near her (hand towel too!) and be ready. It'll be hard to know is this an attack or normal dominance, so watch her hair and lunge bites and any biting around the rump. Choose your submissive girl first. Don't leave the room or let them get out of sight for a moment.
> 
> My Caius attacks any and all things that rest against her cage or suddenly intrude. But she is fine once out of "her" territory.
> ...


They will be all going into the bath for the introductions. None of them have ever been in there before (not even when they were babies) so its all going to be very new. My submissive girl is my baby girl (favourite. shh!), Roxi. I hope its just territorial aggression... I don't want Roxi getting attacked!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Hve a hand towel ready and pluck one straight up and out of the ball. Or, if possible you can always knock the rat off the other (bowl her over).
> 
> Don't let non hostile dominance go unchecked either. Make sure that no one bullies without your intervention. Pet firmly and always use a confident voice.
> 
> ...



Okay, thankyou  Which rat should I put in the bath first? Roxi or Rhona? (Rhona is the one showing hostility)


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I would put Roxi in first, and hold Rhona when she first goes in. If there are more signs of "no!" (aggression) then stop and don't proceed.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

What are their ages?


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Roxi and Rosie are 11 months.
Rhona is 10 months.

I got Rhona just over 2 weeks ago from someone who was re-homing her due to the fact that she was now alone in her cage. She was going to get some more rats but decided not to because it was too heartbreaking when they passed on. I don't know how long Rhona was alone for before I got her, but when I went to collect her the cage was huge, but pretty bare.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> I would put Roxi in first, and hold Rhona when she first goes in. If there are more signs of "no!" (aggression) then stop and don't proceed.


I think I will do that. That sounds much safer than just putting her in with Roxi straight away  Atleast then I will be able to remove her right away if she lashed out or something.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Update...

I put Rhona back into her cage after handling her for about 10 minutes. The two other girls woke up. Rhona sat at the bottom of her cage just watching, waiting maybe? Anyway, the two girls go down at the bottom of their cage and Rhona (little brat) jumped up (puffed up fur) and started almost attacking the side of her cage. She was biting it. Its like she is trying to attack my girls! 

They didn't interact with her at all. She just saw them and leapt.

All the girls have done, is sniffed her. That is it. And that was earlier on when I first put the cage next to their's. They have shown no aggressive signs. They have practically ignored her (and they still did, even with her attacking the bars of her cage) and yet she is trying to hurt them. (She can't because of the seperate cages, but still)

I am REALLY worried about this introduction now.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Caius does all that - hisses, lunges, puffs up. Quite terrifying. I'm hoping it's territorial, though.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

What does hissing sound like? She makes a noise...
Is there a youtube clip of a rat doing it or a sound file or something?

I really hope its territorial too. I would hate for something to happen to Roxi or Rosie... :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

There are two noises that are bad in intros, chattering and hissing. Chattering will sound like bruxing but more intense/harsher/louder. its also not situationally appropriate; if you hear bruxing from your rat but they are upset not happy, it is a tense sound.


Remember, its your job to be parent. Your call on intros, but it shouldn't be the case that rats are ever in danger.

This might help. http://www.joinrats.com/Introductio...Mvn6/935930422_75pGxHN#!i=935930422&k=75pGxHN


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Can hissing be repetitive? If so, I think its hissing...


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yeah. Like I said, I'd see if she'll do intros now (if you've time) than let her get more in a grump. Maybe take her out and distract her for a bit, then start intros.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I'd rather do it on Monday or Wednesday so I would have someone to help me. Shall I move the cages away from eachother until I do intros or?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Perhaps not; Caius tried to murder a rabbit I was petsitting but as the days passed, she stopped obsessing about her.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Your rat sounds lovely and friendly to everything! 

Okay, I geuss she will have to learn to deal with it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Generally I pick a place where everybody has some room to run like a large bathroom or hallway although I've done it outdoors at my safe site too... Then I sit down between the rats. If you feel you are at risk of getting bit, bring thick oven gloves and a towel then let the girls meet each other, they will sniff each other's tails and they will box and they will mock brawl a little.... Cut in when you feel things are going too far. This is an art (judgment call), not a science.

I've had introductions get out of hand by choosing the wrong location. I lost two rats as they darted under a photocopier to do it on their own... Under the copier the smaller rat could easily out maneuver the larger one and it leveled the playing field.... every few minutes one rat or the other would come out for reassurance and then dive back under... as no one was bleeding I just sat back and listened to the squeaking etc... After about an hour both heads poked out next to each other and I plunked them into the same cage. Even when you really screw up and everything goes wrong most introductions still work themselves out. Basically, introductions is what rats do, it's between your rats, you only referee and make sure everyone knows they are part of the same family.

Introductions usually end with one rat rolling on it's back or side and getting groomed by the other.

Neutral territory is nice but not essential, and I've only ever seen rats get more worked up by being kept in cages next to each other, so I don't usually do it. When a rat to see another rat that doesn't introduce itself, it may perceive it as a threat from an invader.

Best luck.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Thankyou Rat Daddy 

Rhona seems to have settled down now. Roxi and Rosie still are not paying attention to her, the occassional sniff but thats it. Rhona's fur is still puffed up, but not as much. She doesn't 'follow' them when they pass her everytime. Just sometimes. 
They are all sleeping at the moment. I will see how they all seem tomorrow and will go from there. 

I'll update tomorrow!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

So this evening Rhona doesn't 'leap' at the sides of the cage as much. In fact, Rosie just ran down from the top of the cage and when Rhona would normally jump up and start wildly attacking the bars of her cage, didn't do much. She sat watching, fur puffed up, but that was it. 

Improvement, maybe?
She seems to have settled down a bit.

Watching them now...
Roxi is sniffing Rhona's cage and Rhona isn't doing anything. She's eating, but she definitely saw her. She looked over at her.

I think its getting a little better


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe time is what she needed then!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I hope so! 
Just going to wait and see until Wednesday so I have some help just in case


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## AshleighNicole (Dec 3, 2013)

I agree with Rat Daddy!
I observed this with my dog, yesterday actually. Dogs are very different than ratties obviously, but it applies.
We've never taken our Cocker Spaniel ( 8months old) to a dog park. We did yesterday to meet one of our foster dogs who got adopted. Our Cocker growled at every dog that walked near him, we sat outside the chain link fence, I was terrified to go in because he might have hurt another dog. A sweet elder lady came to me and said, "of course he's acting this way! You've got him leashed and there's a fence in the way. Come in here and drop the leash."
I did what she said and the change was light a light switch. No more growling and barring teeth, he was prancing around and barking happily for an hour before I decided it was time to leave. After so much that I've read, I would separate the cages for a few days, and let them meet in the bath tub, like you said. That way the hostility isnt on her mind when they meet.
Good luck, I can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Thankyou AshleighNicole 
That makes a lot of sense!

I am torn now. Seperate the cages, or not...
There is improvement and she has settled down considerably.

Oh another thing, in each cage, they both have an old t-shirt which they have slept with. Should I swap the t-shirts over so they each have something smelling of the other rat, or not?


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Okay, she's showing more aggressive signs again.
She is also flicking her tail side to side really fast when she is 'attached' to the side of the cage, with her fur puffed up, hissing, trying to reach the others... Flicking the tail is a sign of annoyance isn't it? I can swear I read somewhere that it was...

I think I will move the cages apart for now.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Annoyance or extreme tension. When will you have that second pair of hands? I really would try to just toss them in together.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh, poor phrasing. I meant to try and do the intros in neutral territory -- supervised and controlled.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Wednesday... :/
I might try it by myself after dinner just to see what happens.

So I put Roxi in the bath and hold Rhona just in case. If she lunges, then what should I do? Remove her and put her back in her cage?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, you can try admonishing her and bopping her, but make sure you've broken her focus some how so she doesn't take her anger out on you.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Okay. Just about to start the intros... 
Really hope Roxi doesn't get attacked


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Good luck!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I did about 10 minutes of Rhona and Roxi. Then I got kicked out the bathroom. >.<

At first I was holding Rhona, but Roxi just kept climbing up my arm. Then I held her lightly with one hand letting her walk around. Roxi sniffed her and she didn't do anything. Her fur wasn't puffed up and she wasn't showing any aggressive signs. I let go of her but had my gloved hand at the ready just in case, and both rats where trying to get out of the bath. Rhona sniffed Roxi's face but that was it. All other activity was them running around the outside of the bath side by side trying to figure out a way to escape.

Either Rhona hates Rosie with a passion, OR its her being territorial. I am hoping its territorial behaviour!

Might be able to do more intros with Roxi and Rhona later on this evening.

So far, no aggression, but they were only in the bath for a short space of time.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That's a good sign!

You'll probably have to do many many neutral territory intros between now and then, then should do cage intros once you have more help.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Yes I am planning to do lots more  Short sessions multiple times a day, gradually getting longer.
When the new cage arrives I wont be putting any rats in it until the 3 of them have met loads beforehand. That way its a whole new area and they will be focused on exploring rather than eachother.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

http://www.sundroprats.co.uk/otherStuff/introductions.php

I would use that when it comes to introducing them in the new cage.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I so hate short sessions of any kind because they make so little progress... It's like watching the first minutes of a movie over and over again. The rats have to meet, start to settle down and get separated again. What's really getting resolved????

Plan for a long session choose a larger space, like a hallway or entire bathroom floor and let the rats get it on and work it out... Usually with girls they do some mock combat including chasing, boxing and squeaking and they battle their way to a resolution in about an hour or less.... One rat rolls over and the other preens and it's all over. The introduction is a way of establishing their social status with regard to each other and the way a rat joins a new pack... like being jumped in by a human gang or hazing at a frat. It isn't pretty by our standards but it's just what rats do... If you don't let it play itself out to a conclusion... you will get to do it over and over and over until you eventually do... Keep my movie example in mind... no matter how may times you watch the first 10 minutes you are no closer to finding out how the movie ends.

The basis of immersion both for humans and introductions is to let normal rat processes run their course uninterrupted as best as possible. Rats know how to greet each other and introduce themselves... you just have to make it happen safely. Sometimes, both rats and humans just seem to get tired of fighting and become friends. My family and I live far away and over the years various minor disagreements started, as no one talked afterwards... they just grew to the point no one talks to one another now... If we were closer together we would have worked it out within a few hours or days and we wouldn't be avoiding each other for years at a time.

Best luck.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

That article is very useful, thankyou!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Rat Daddy, should the area be neutral territory though? The only place that is 'neutral' for my rats is the bath. I can't put them in the bathroom on the floor because the chances they will get into dangerous things is high. They will also be able to get under the bath...


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Usually with girls they do some mock combat including chasing, boxing and squeaking


This is exactly what happened. 
I put them in the playpen (that doesn't really get used now. I give Rhona the sofa for free-range and my other girls have my whole room) so they would have more space. 

After some time in the bath (all 3 of them) with not much happening at all (they kept jumping out), I made the move to put them into the playpen. So I put Roxi and Rosie in first, then Rhona. The first 10 minutes were uneventful, all 3 were just exploring. Then Rhona decides to go and say hello to Rosie. This was eventful and resulted in both of them rolling around the floor for a few seconds squealing at eachother. Poor little Roxi found it terrifying and ran to seek refuge behing the radiator (she sits on the pipe). She refused to come out until she was certain they had stopped.

She comes out and stays far away from the other two rats. Rhona runs towards her and she runs away, back to her safe-zone. Rhona started nipping at her hind legs and got kicked in the face. After a while nothing else happened. I asked my brother to chop up some veggies for them.

Rosie was at the opposite end of the playpen, frozen, not moving. She didn't move until the veggies came out.

With the veggies tossed into the playpen all 3 were eating. Rhona ate the most and tried to nick Roxi's (and successfully achieved that) who just ran away again. Eventually, Roxi and Rhona had a scuffle and Rhona was chasing Roxi around the playpen for a while. 

Rosie was still not moving, just sitting there. Still as a statue.

No blood was drawn, but there was a lot of squealing and scuffling between Rhona and Rosie. Roxi was just scared and ran away most of the time. Either that or she was chased.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That sounds encouraging!


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I hope so!
It was distressing watching them rolling about squealing at eachother though. I wanted to step in SO BADLY but forced myself not to.
I really think that if they all end up in the same cage, that Rhona will be boss. Definitly boss.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

You can always intervene if it seems excessive; Rhona is the boss under you.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

But when they stopped (Rhona and Rosie) it didn't happen again. Whilst when Roxi and Rhona were interacting, because they didn't have as big a scuffle as when Rhona went to see Rosie, it sorta carried on longer if you get me? I don't know how to explain it.

I think because Rosie is more dominant that Roxi, she wanted to be dominant over Rhona. But Roxi is a wuss and just ran away, not wanting any confrontation, which led to her being chased because Rhona wanted to see where she stood... maybe? idek.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Oddly, girl rats don't establish as solid dominance structures as boys do. Often they squabble throughout their lives over little things... I've never had any two girls that didn't scuffle from time to time, but overall they usually don't do any serious harm.... That said introductions serve an important social ordering for all rats...

I know that various folks have various opinions regarding neutral territory and such... but in all reality, rats tend to work things out despite our best laid plans. If you think about it, pet shops just plunk shipments of new rats into cages full of old ones with very few casualties, if any at all. The introduction squabbles often distress rat owners more than they do their rats... Yes, it's good to be ready to intervene as your rats are precious to you, but for the most part, long term rat owners tend to regard introductions as more of a right of passage than a real crisis. Thus phrases like "no harm, no foul" were born. 

I tend to be more hands on than that. I believe that rats living with humans in a household isn't necessarily a "natural" situation and the humans should be hands on and in charge... but not so far as to preventing their rats from doing what they have to do. Try to relax and let your rats work it out, step in when and if you have to, you are in charge, but remember the sooner your rats get things sorted out, the sooner they can get on with peaceful rat pack cohabitation and regularly scheduled little squabbles.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I have seen Rosie and Roxi have squabbled several times in their cage thoughout me owning them. Most of the time they live together very peacefully, but there are the odd days where they'll be rolling around, squeaking and making a load of noise. Neither of them gets any blood drawn, so I leave them to it. Its a like what I saw with the 3 of them yesterday now I think about it...

I will put all 3 rats together again in the playpen this evening, when they are awake. All 3 are sleeping right now. I'll post the results afterwards.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

http://rattie-lover16.tumblr.com/post/71757587095/rat-introductions-went-pretty-well-today-i

Did a long introduction session today (about 2 hours) and I think they have sorted it all out. (I hope)
I will be doing many more sessions just to be safe, but so far I think its going well.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

How long until the new cage comes? If it is a bit, I would either start adding stuff from their cage into the playpen or make it so the cages are in the playpen and open. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Should come any day now. Ordered it on Saturday at around 11pm so they wouldn't have seen the order until Sunday...
I am geussing tomorrow or thursday. Friday at the lastest.

I will have to put stuff in the playpen then. Rosie and Roxi's cage is too big to carry downstairs without dismantling it (and it only houses 3 rats max!)

This is the new cage (UK equivalent to Critter Nation)
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/hutches_cages/rat_cage/132223


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Today Rhona was arching her back a lot, chattering and puffing her fur up... I watched her very closely, but didn't remove her.

She had a boxing match with Roxi and then was wrestling with her, both were making a lot of noise. I saw her nip Roxi's rump quite hard but no blood was drawn. Roxi just ran away and hid behind the radiator.

Do I only remove Rhona if she draws blood, or can I intervene at any time?

Is it normal for Rosie to be frozen the whole time when Rhona is in the playpen with them? She sits in a corner and wont move until I take Rhona out of the playpen. When Rhona approaches Rosie, Rhona will either sniff her or pin her down and powergroom her. Thoughout the whole process Rosie will just stay dead still. Why is that?

Also, today whenever I picked Rhona up (only when she was in the playpen) she would make a tiny squeak sound. I don't know if she is making that noise to be put back down (like if she squeaked in her old home, they would put her down again) or if it means something more?

After each introduction session, I check all rats over just to be sure they have no wounds or anything concerning that I may have missed when introducing them. None of them have wounds, so I don't think she's hurting when I pick her up...

Cage should hopefully arrive tomorrow (it better do. Spent all day emptying out my wardrobe so I have space for it!)
How do you know when all rats are getting along enough so they can all live together?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Rhona sounds like she is in heat!

You intervene when you want - it's like your children; they must be separated with wounds, but you can intervene with bullies!

Rosie is tense. She needs to deal with Rhona; maybe a smaller space with just the two of them. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

She's a right little so and so at times Rhona is! I have never had any problems with any of the others being on heat. Roxi nips, but very rarely. Its certainly not everytime she's on heat.
I'll have to watch her then. Hopefully it wont be like this every few days. I feel sorry for my girls if they are kept in a cage with her on heat like this! haha :')

She is definitly bullying at the moment. Hopefully its just because she's on heat and wont last forever. Maybe tomorrow she'll have calmed down a little. How long does being on heat last in rats? I know its happens every 4 days or so, but how long does it stay for? (If that makes sense?)

I might put her and Rosie in the bath again. But Rhona kept jumping out last time >.< which is why I moved them to the playpen (which she still tries to jump out of!) Rhona jumps a lot in her cage I have noticed too. Rather than climbing the bars to get to her hammock, she sits on the log bridge and full on leaps into it xD

Thankyou for helping me with all this by the way!
Hopefully they will all get used to eachother soon, that way I wont have to keep bumping up this thread with questions!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Heat lasts about six hours usually. It's always a nightmare here (8 girls) with humping and chasing an bullying. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Okay, so hopefully tomorrow she should be back to normal (not as aggressive and hormonal!) I really hope it was just her on heat because she was REALLY arching her back!
Oh 8?! I feel for you! Must be fun owning so many though


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

This was them yesterday...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5es1txSCSJc&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

I thought it would be interesting to film it (as I am studying animal nursing and one of the subjects is animal behaviour) so I can refer back to it if I need something like this for a future assignment.
I was so close to stepping in here! Its not very nice  I feel sorry for Roxi!


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## zombiesrkewl (Nov 28, 2013)

If Rhona gets super aggressive and bossy whenever she's in heat, you might have to consider getting her spayed (provided you have a knowledgeable vet near you who has performed surgeries on rats before). I would wait, of course, to see if she's just acting like this because everything's new or if she's like this all the time.

You got Rhona through an ad, yes? If I remember correctly, someone bought her as a companion for an older rat who then passed away? Are you still in contact with this person? Maybe you could ask them if she exhibited this behavior before.

I hope everything works out! Roxi's squeaks in the video hurt my heart, even though I knew she was safe.  I'm so glad my introductions went as smoothly as they did, because there's no way I could be as calm as you! XP


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK so this is what you never do.. that worked for me... Our part wild rat had just come home after living outside for 5 months. She had driven off all of the feral cats, she had been living with my neighbor's pit bulls and when he tried to pick her up, she shredded his hand. Amazingly she came to me when I recalled her after 5 month's and was still very well behaved towards my daughter and me. But she was absolutely a stone cold killer, she not only survived, but you should have seen how well groomed and sharp she looked after 5 months surviving on her own.

By that time we already had Fuzzy Rat for several months and she was bigger that our part wild rat and strong too. She could run nearly a half mile outdoors without getting winded and she was a very self confident true shoulder rat... you better believe she was going to put up a fight... but no matter how I looked at it... my part wild was going to kill her as she had been the rat of the house before Fuzzy Rat. So I took both rats... both were very well bonded to me.. one in each hand and reclined in my easy chair and set them lose on my stomach. And I kept my hands in between as they went at each other blocking the bites... The horror show lasted over half an hour, right on top of me. Now this madness was prompted by about 20% over confidence and 80% sheer insanity, but eventually the rats stopped fighting as they got the message and I squished them together into a single ball and put them into the same cage together.

Afterwards my hands were itching like crazy... I looked down and there were hundreds of sets of tiny pinpricks all over my hands and arms, but neither rat drew blood. 

That's the absolute most extreme way to do introductions. And for the most part the rats will make a great show of a fight but no one will be harmed, once I start introductions I never stop until it's all over and everyone winds up in the same cage together. I didn't see anything in the video that wouldn't have worked itself out eventually nor was there a need to cut in yet... but that's always your call and I've been more hands on than most people would ever want to be... but that was with a very dangerous rat meeting a very big and stubborn one. And the story isn't entire over yet...

Oddly Fuzzy Rat insisted in provoking my part wild rat after that day, barbering her back side and every few days the rats would have a short fight when I let them out of the cage for free range... This continued until one morning I found my part wild with a nasty bite mark on her upper thigh and Fuzzy rat with two puncture wounds on either side of her trachea. She had finally pushed my part wild rat into going for her throat... the fighting was over for good after that and so was the barbering. Fuzzy Rat was never going to play second fiddle to anybody... but she was also anything but stupid. My part wild rat exhibited extreme patience with her, but when enough was enough she made her point so clear that there could be no further debate as to who could kill who in a single bite. Fuzzy Rat never let another fight with an adult rat get out of hand after that. When we got Amelia she mock fought for less than 15 minutes before rolling over and getting her belly groomed. 

So two lessons learned, rats do have to work things out for themselves and second if my vicious stone cold part wild rat didn't finish off Fuzzy Rat when she clearly could have at any time, I'm guessing your domestic girls aren't going to kill each other either. I might add that my part wild rat and Fuzzy Rat became very good friends in the end, neither ever dominating the other. My part wild rat actually became like an older sister to Fuzzy Rat and taught her several wild rat tricks like climbing extension cords and hiding inside furniture.

Don't be afraid to intervene, but also remember the rats have to sort it out for themselves in the end.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

zombiesrkewl said:


> If Rhona gets super aggressive and bossy whenever she's in heat, you might have to consider getting her spayed (provided you have a knowledgeable vet near you who has performed surgeries on rats before). I would wait, of course, to see if she's just acting like this because everything's new or if she's like this all the time.
> 
> You got Rhona through an ad, yes? If I remember correctly, someone bought her as a companion for an older rat who then passed away? Are you still in contact with this person? Maybe you could ask them if she exhibited this behavior before.
> 
> I hope everything works out! Roxi's squeaks in the video hurt my heart, even though I knew she was safe.  I'm so glad my introductions went as smoothly as they did, because there's no way I could be as calm as you! XP


Unfortunatly, my vet isn't very experienced in rats so I am not very keen letting him operate on any of my girls. I am in the process of trying to find a different vet. Its just hard to get my dad to see that I need to go to an exotic vet rather than a 'cat and dog' vet as this 'cat and dog' vet is just 2 minutes down the road!
I was watching her in when she was in the cage earlier on that night (11pm ish) and she seemed to have calmed down. I did the introductions that day at around 2pm I am geussing so I think it was just her on heat. If it does last around 6 hours like nanashi was saying, it certainly seems it. But then again, that was her in the cage next to the other 2. She didn't have any contact with them.

Yes I got her though an ad. Yeah, she was a companion rat for older rats who did unfortunatly pass. I deleted the number from my phone (I hate having random numbers in my phone) so contacting her wouldn't be possible... :/

Thankyou! Oh it was horrible hearing my baby squeak like that! She normally just runs away and hides behind the radiator straight away, but that time she was standing up for herself! 
I am not calm! My heart was beating like anything when all that went on! XD I just didn't want to make any noise otherwise they'd just stop and run over to me. I just want them to sort out their issues and then I will gladly talk to them and all that. I just want it sorted! haha


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> OK so this is what you never do.. that worked for me... Our part wild rat had just come home after living outside for 5 months. She had driven off all of the feral cats, she had been living with my neighbor's pit bulls and when he tried to pick her up, she shredded his hand. Amazingly she came to me when I recalled her after 5 month's and was still very well behaved towards my daughter and me. But she was absolutely a stone cold killer, she not only survived, but you should have seen how well groomed and sharp she looked after 5 months surviving on her own.
> 
> By that time we already had Fuzzy Rat for several months and she was bigger that our part wild rat and strong too. She could run nearly a half mile outdoors without getting winded and she was a very self confident true shoulder rat... you better believe she was going to put up a fight... but no matter how I looked at it... my part wild was going to kill her as she had been the rat of the house before Fuzzy Rat. So I took both rats... both were very well bonded to me.. one in each hand and reclined in my easy chair and set them lose on my stomach. And I kept my hands in between as they went at each other blocking the bites... The horror show lasted over half an hour, right on top of me. Now this madness was prompted by about 20% over confidence and 80% sheer insanity, but eventually the rats stopped fighting as they got the message and I squished them together into a single ball and put them into the same cage together.
> 
> ...


Wow, that was quite amazing Rat Daddy! That method of um... introductions, was crazy!
I hope that they'll sort their issues out soon.

I have seen Rhona pin down Rosie and groom her, with Rosie staying absulutly still. Then when Rhona let go, she would run away and Rhona nipped her on the rump. I have also seen this with Roxi too. None of them yet have settled down in a corner and snuggled up though. 

When will you be able to tell if all 3 rats are happy with eachother?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, yes the introduction I described was in fact crazy... Our part wild rat was too pretty to be in a feeder bin when we got her and the girl at the store told us she had been brought in by a customer and was human friendly which seemed to make her an excellent choice for a first rat... Little did we know that her lines had crossed with a wild rat most likely within the last 3 or 4 generations and despite looking like a domestic... there was nothing domestic about her personality. She was very much a wolf in sheep's clothing.

As our first rat, I actually tried to rationalize that somehow it was normal for rat pups to jump three feet from the desk onto me, which I of course later found out later was not...

Unfortunately, that rat was killed in a terrible accident involving her remarkable jumping ability and a closing door. She turned out to be very special, and losing her broke our hearts, but I'm pretty sure my insurance company breathed a sigh of relief. She is buried next to Fuzzy Rat and hopefully they are reaping major havoc on the other side of the Rainbow Bridge now. With Fuzzy Rat's amazing intelligence and the part wild's remarkable rat skills they were a formidable duo. 

Basically, I'm the kind of person that likes to try new ideas and do things differently, I knew I was in store for a very bloody introduction but I felt I could rely on both rats not to bite me... Thankfully I was right. I was able to at least convince my part wild rat not to kill Fuzzy Rat and I was successful at that. Wild rats are very pack oriented so she got the message that Fuzzy Rat belonged to her pack. Fuzzy Rat was slower to understand that the smaller rat she was dealing with wasn't anything like her and thought she could push the smaller rat around. Which was among the worst ideas she ever had and what I thought I could prevent.

In the end, my part wild rat made her point, the only way she knew how.... by holding Fuzzy Rat by the trachea. Which I'm pretty sure was an eye opening experience for a rat that really was as smart as any rat could likely be. 

Oddly, that's where I really came to understand that rats really do want to live in organized social structures and not just beat each other up. They want to establish social hierarchies and live in peace thereafter. The human roll is to keep things from getting out of hand, being the group leader (alpha human) but for the most part you have to let the rats work out the details. 

I cited my experience, not because anybody should repeat it, but so that you might get an idea of a worst case scenario that worked out well in the end. It's important for you to maintain your self confidence and confidence in your rats through this otherwise difficult process.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Yes, I can see that my girls are all starting to settle down (hopefully I haven't jinxed it, but they were fine today!)

First I had Rosie and Rhona in the bath for half an hour so Rosie would get used to Rhona and not be as tense.
Then all 3 girls were in the playpen with some toys from each cage in it, for about 2 hours.

In that 2 hours, we had 3 minor scuffles. Not as bad as the one in the video. I blocked the radiator off because Roxi wouldn't come out until Rhona was on the otherside. With all 3 of them running around, they seem a lot calmer around eachother.

Rhona still puffs her fur up, but has stopped arching her back and being as defensive. She still squeaks when I pick her up though?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Squeaking when she gets picked up most likely doesn't have anything to do with the introduction process, it most likely is a socialization issue and perhaps you need to spend more one on one time with that rat?

And if your rats aren't killing each other after a few hours together you are most of the way home. Now get in the middle and play with everybody so they know they are a single family and you are their leader...

Eventually you take the leap of faith and lock everyone into the same cage, clench your teeth and hope for the best...


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Its something she has only just started to do. Started yesterday actually, come to think of it.
Its the cage part thats worrying me most I think. They will be watched incredibly closely when that time comes! (Still hasn't arrived yet. I'm incredibly impatient which doesn't help!)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I developed immersion with help from Fuzzy Rat of course. We cut down socialization from a few weeks to a couple of months to a few hours... I do introductions in a few hours too... I find impatience is a virtue.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> I developed immersion with help from Fuzzy Rat of course. We cut down socialization from a few weeks to a couple of months to a few hours... I do introductions in a few hours too... I find impatience is a virtue.


Is that 'a few hours' as in over a period of days, or just a solid __ hours?
Mine started off with short introductions, but as you said, its like a film and you never know what happens at the end. So I increased it to like 1-3 hours and I think its sorting its self out.


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

So this cage I am getting... ITS IN GERMANY because a ferry got deleyed because of the weather.
I have no idea when its going to arrive, the rats are getting along now (or they did today atleast) so i'm pretty annoyed right now.


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