# 7 Week Old Male DEW Rat Crashing Around Cage In Fear



## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

I am afraid there is something wrong with my baby Styles. He is 7 weeks old, was brought home from the breeder on Saturday, and was perfectly healthy and energetic yesterday. About two hours ago, though, my mom brought me out of the shower with concerns because she heard a loud crashing sound and found Styles frozen under his latter, not moving, while his brother continued to sleep peacefully on the top level. I picked Styles up and he did not respond at first. After a few moments he clung to my hand and shirt, and refused to let go, clearly wanting to stay as close to me as possible. He was quivering, and clearly terrified. Just a few moments ago it happened again, and I saw him this time. He was flying about the bottom of his cage senselessly, crashing into things. I said his name and he froze and didn't move. As soon as I had my hand near him he clung to it, and started panicking if I brought him away from my body to check for injury. 

I just put him back in his cage after I removed the two new toys (a tent and a climbing rope) I gave them today. He went into his log and started grooming vigorously, same as he did before. He's still in the log now. He flinched when I spoke, but settled down after a bit of talking.

Today I rat proofed my room and let them explore it for the first time, instead of the bathroom. Yesterday we moved them onto a table and off of the floor. I gave them new treats, mostly protein based ones after they loved the chicken they got for dinner yesterday. They also got two new hanging toys, which I just removed as a precaution. Isaac, his brother, is still sleeping peacefully. Styles has no sign of injury, I checked for broken limbs and watched him move around before putting him back in.

Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong with my baby? I have school tomorrow and I don't know what to do if he freaks while I am gone, he needed my touch so desperately just now...I don't know what to do. They both come to me when frightened, and crave physical reassurance. 

Thanks,
Arik

Edit;

Styles is now sleeping in the log, same as before but last time he moved up to the second level before going to sleep. Could it be possible he is having nightmares? Does anyone have experience with their rats having nightmares? When our other animals have nightmares, if we wake them they attack us before realizing what's going on.


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## littleames (Apr 29, 2013)

Anything like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU6DaJDAWOU


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

The running is just like the beginning, but afterwards he's not really lethargic, terrified, but still responds to sounds and touch and everything. No jerking involved, and he did defecate the first time, but they both do whenever they're scared or wake up suddenly. He didn't the second time. 


I had an epileptic gerbil once who was set off my smells, usually chemical smells, so I had to be very careful about new anything. He would simply freeze and start jerking his ears up and down while he seized, though. 

He doesn't quite go in circles either, it's just zig zags all over, out of sleep and right back into sleep.


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## littleames (Apr 29, 2013)

Not all rats will seize the same, it could still be seizures. I would definitely keep a close eye on him so he doesn't hurt himself. I'm not an expert but, waking up from sleep, running around crashing into things and then going back to sleep sounds a bit odd. Especially if he has done it more than once. Maybe someone who has had a similar experience can offer you advice.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

I took the new toys out and he spent the rest of the night sleeping peacefully other than moving up to the other levels a couple of times. I'll keep a close eye on him and hope it was just something about the toys that set him off. If not then I'll see about convincing my mom to take him into the vet so we can do a check up, probably both of them to be safe.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Update;

He had another episode at 6:25 this morning, that's been 3 in under 12 hours, the time between being 2 hours and then 8 hours. Each time when I called his name he stopped and froze, then clung to me for reassurance.

I don't know what to do. My parents won't take him to the vet, and I can't take him myself.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Contact the breeder. Seizing (even partially) should not occur that frequently. The damage can be permanent if he gets a fever, as you probably know.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Is he a black eyed white? In which case they can suffer from audio generated epilepsy, its actually why the NFRS (uk national rat club) has stopped these from being shown as a variety, the issues are inherinatly linked with the gene. You can get this in other varieties too. It can be helped with anti seizure medicine but the ultimate solution is to find the source of the problem and remove it

I would check around the room and any rooms that share a wall for anything that might be making high pitched noises, the ones i've come across causing issues are ultrasonic pest scarers, energy saving lightbulbs and hoovers. I had a pair of ruby eyed whites who would completely freak from the hoover and a friend had one silver fawn lad who kept fitting, until she discovered her neighbour had an ultrasonic pet scarer on the other side of there shared wall and hadnt even though about her pet rats.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Pretty much all of our light bulbs are energy saving bulbs, including the one in my ceiling fan in my bedroom. I'll turn the fan off, since it whines sometimes, and ask my mom to keep the TV off as well as my sister's budgie's radio. My sister also listens to music on her iPod pretty much all night, and her room is on the other side of the wall. 

He is a Dark Eyed White.

I've contacted the breeder but have yet to hear a reply. I'll keep talking to my mom about taking him to the closest small animal/exotic vet to see if we can figure out something and maybe get a prescription.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Please keep us updated... I hope your vet is familiar with this condition...


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Returned home from school and was informed by my mom that he didn't have another episode after I turned the fan off. He's acting perfectly fine, and both boys were especially snuggly and happy to see me home. 

I am also wondering if perhaps it could have been my tarantula that was causing the frights? They were recently moved onto a stand, so Styles was actually eye level with her from where he was sleeping. She's nocturnal, and hasn't been active in about a week. However last night she was VERY active and climbing her tank and falling...I wonder if the weird movements could have freaked him out?

If he has another episode I'll insist on him seeing the vet. I asked the breeder about it, and she said that she would occasionally hear the ratties crashing about, but it never resulted in injury or seemed to bother them. 

I will keep you all updated! You have all of our thanks <3


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## Maddie (Jan 13, 2014)

I thought I might comment on the possibility of an epileptic pet. Keep on mind I'm not a vet and only relating it from my experience with my dog, not a rat.I have a 5 year old poodle that has been on meds for his epilepsy for three years. He started having seizures when he was two and they did some blood work. I was told for some reason (cannot remember) that it's difficult to determine when dogs have it and lots of times it can be stress or even from high fevers. I kept a log of when he had them, time length and even took some video clips on my phone for the vet. After a few months of monitoring he was put on medication. It does help a lot in reducing them or at least making them less severe. The down side is he has blood work often since the medication can be hard on I believe the kidneys?Anyway I was going to say with the seizures you mentioned he froze after you called his name. Is this during the episode or after? Because obviously with a seizure the animal shouldn't have a great deal of control over his muscles and movements. My dog comes to me right before his starts and sits in my lap but during them he obviously has no control over his legs and body. If it is seizures you might want to keep a journal and record what is happening with him. If it's anything similar to Cobi's situation they might not put him on meds right away. It might also help you keep track of events and figure out the trigger.Good luck to you and hope you can help your boy.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Turned off my fan and he hasn't had an episode since. My mom's agreed to take him to the vet should he have another episode.

Maddie, the freezing is something I experienced with my epileptic gerbil. Whenever he had an episode he would stop once his brother started grooming him. My brother is epileptic, but his last episode was so long ago I can't even remember what his were like. 

Each of Styles' episodes lasted only a few seconds, so it's hard to say if it was during or after that he froze once I said his name. He hadn't been acting himself since, but yesterday after a lot of snuggling of both boys and coaxing he perked up and went into "play mod" and was romping with Isaac and I. Then he made a fun game of running circles around me, clambering up and down my legs and leaping from my head to my hand and so on...

So I'm hoping it was the fan's faulty wiring that was causing the problems. I'll just have to get a smaller swiveling fan for my room in the summer, and with luck all will be well.

Thanks for everything so far, everyone! 

I will keep a record of all episodes, length of each, and time between for reference.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Styles had an episode again at 1:35AM this morning. I noticed that when I pick him up his head doesn't move with his body, so when I turn his body his head is held (or tries to stay) in the same place, like a chicken does if you move it while holding it. Then when I gently press his head, he simply lets me move it, and holds it wherever I place it, same thing with all of his limbs and tail. He also peed on himself this time, and it looks as though he defecated many times before the senseless running.

I told my mom he needed to see the vet (I found a rat savvy one), and her only response this time was a disapproving "mmmm" sound and nothing more was said on the subject. 

Styles is kind of lethargic today, slow moving and slow to react. I'm hoping he perks up later, but I am just so worried about him, and now my mom keeps downplaying it as just "running around" and not any sort of seizure/illness/etc.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lethargy is a big warning sign. Rats in general do not ever want to look sickly or ill, so by the time these warning signs pop up its time to run to the vet. Keep in mind it'll be a huge favor if the vet squeezes you in on the same day you call, so I would really ring them up as soon as possible. Don't let him get cold, make sure food and water are close to where he is laying (if the cage is multiple levels).


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Doesnt sound good at all, they often have dazes after a fit and can be frozen for a while. Id be tempted to move him into a single level cage for now, whilst you wait to get him to the vets. It minimises t b e damage he can do to himself, remove anything sharp or too hard too.


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## hybanana (Jan 27, 2012)

Def seizures. Take him to a vet asap. Also, seizures over heat the body because all the muscles are firing rapidly. Cold peas are good for cooling the body. Make sure there is a cozy place to sleep after because of the same reason it tuckers them out. It's like running a marathon in 30min. Poor baby hope he gets better

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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

My mom said he slept all day, which worried me as it's very unlike him, but once I scooped him up and snuggled and played with him he perked up and went into "normal Styles" mode and ran about playing with Isaac. Then they got green beans and now he's acting just fine. 

I just called the closest exotic vet (you must call them before bringing the animal in) and spoke with a technician who owns rats. We ruled out environmental factors, and worked it down to being built into him. Unfortunately, due to his age, there is little they can do for him. We have to bring him in so they can do blood work, but the problem is blood work rarely helps with seizures/epilepsy. The serious tests are incredibly expensive (in the 1,000's), so unfortunately the end result was that there isn't much they can do.

Because there's little we could do my mom does not see a point in bringing him. I just want to rule out possible problems, honestly. The lethargic behavior this morning really scared me, and as you've said his body temperature goes way up, and he's so weak afterwards. I think I'll pursue taking him into the vet (I'll bring Isaac along too to help keep stress down) for the blood work, and maybe to get some more direct advice from the vets.

So now we're trying to see if there are any dietary/herbal things that could help lower the frequency of the seizures. Do you guys have any ideas/recommendations?


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## hybanana (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah that sounds like a good idea. You never know, sometimes seizures happen due to an irritation from food, betting etc...so maybe just talking it out with the vet will be enough. Glad you're going to take him

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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

A new development has occurred...I think I may have prevented a seizure last night.

I woke up at hearing the rattie's coming down to their bottom level (paranoid about Styles seizing again), so I turned on my light to watch them. Isaac came down for a drink and was moving just fine, Styles, however, was not. He pretty much fell down the last ladder and stumbled weakly over to me and was clearly dazed. Worried, I kept watching him as he stumbled and acted over all strange- blank faced and confused. He kept sniffing the air for long periods of time with his head slowly waving, which didn't seem normal.

Now, each night I take their food bowl out so no one hoards food (Isaac does if I let him). Each time Styles seized he had been without food for about 3 hours or more. I didn't even think about it until this happened.

In an attempt to snap him out of his daze, I simply gave him a yogurt treat. He took a while, but suddenly grabbed it and stumbled off to eat. Still worried, I filled up their food dish and put in the cage. Isaac wasn't really hungry, and went back up to sleep. Styles was a different story, he was famished. He ended up eating all but three pieces of their rat food. However, with each piece he perked up more and acted more himself. The wobbliness and confused look went away, and we played for a bit before he went back up, groomed Isaac, and went to sleep. About every two-three hours he would wake up, stumble down (though not quite as bad as the first time I noticed) eat a bit, then would feel better and play a bit before going back to sleep. 

So now I am wondering if it _could_ be a blood sugar problem. It doesn't bother Isaac at all, but I'm guessing it could be like people...maybe I have a diabetic rat? That, at least, can usually be determined through some blood work. We'll take him in when we can (and when the weather's less awful- too cold for transporting baby rats right now) to have some blood work done.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

How long were you fasting them? Rats shouldn't go too long without food because they've such a quick metabolism. Three hours tops. 


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

That's probably what the problem has been, then. I had no idea they needed food at such a rate (I'll have to remember to put that on my animal science project). They definitely went over 3 hours without food, especially while I was at school (~8 hours of my day), which I'm now pretty sure was what was causing Styles problems (not Isaac though, which is interesting). I'll just keep their bowl full of rat kibble at all times. 

Do you know at what rate blood sugar drops without food, in rats?


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## hybanana (Jan 27, 2012)

It's still possible that its seizures though. I had a dog that had seizures and after an episode she ate nearly two bowls of dog food even if she just ate. She was so weak she needed that energy back...both are possibilities though. My boys hoard food horribly...:/ but I kinda have to grit my teeth and bear it even though it drives me batty...I know they need it at night when they're most active

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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It depends on their level of activity. I'm one for twelve hours sometimes so I'll fill the food bowl. I'll come home and everyone will be asleep conserving energy with an empty food bowl. Fill it up, and they're back to trotting around. 


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## worldvsunicorn (Jan 15, 2014)

I'm hypoglycemic and that's pretty close to how I act when I go more then 4 hours without food (though I faint instead of seize) I would really bring that up to a vet. Plenty of animals are diabetic or hypoglycemic and it's manageable, but not something a vet would think of right off the bat.

Best of luck!


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

The fifth episode just occurred, and was worse than the others. After a few seconds of running he froze and rolled onto his back then started jerking and trembling uncontrollably, then suddenly scurried into the corner and continued to jerk and twitch violently, closing and opening his eyes on random. Lasted about 15 seconds before he stopped and lay still. His body was incredibly hot, and worried about fever I attempted to scoop him up to move him, but he did not want physical contact- I'm guessing he's overheating. I soaked a washcloth in cold water, squeezed excess water out and folded it up for him to lay on. He's now laying with most of his body on it. He's very exhausted now, and groomed a bit before falling asleep.He had food available this time, so it was not blood sugar. However I did have some male crickets mature and start chirping- apparently male crickets do emit ultrasonic sounds if they hear other ultrasound, and I have multiple male crickets. Likely a note in their chirping is ultrasonic.


What's peculiar as that, after doing some research, I found out rats actually communicate using ultrasound...so that ultrasound would trigger seizures is just odd. And I still don't know if that's the cause. The only other new thing was some new vegetable based food (mixed in with their current kibble), and my sister's new parakeet. We already have a parakeet though, so that shouldn't be a problem (and they're not in the same rooms). 

I'm just concerned that when he does go into the vet they'll have nothing to tell us. When I was talking to one of the technicians (not the one that owns and operates on rats) she told me that "it is the breeder's responsibility and obligation to refund and replace the rat." I was a little furious at this, as I do not consider any living animal replaceable because it is 'defective' but I kept my mouth shut. I'm just concerned about how they might treat him. A few of the techs does own a couple of rats, so I'd hope she'd at least respect him. 

I just don't know what to do. He's only 8 weeks old...I'm worried about how much these violent, and fairly frequent episodes, will affect his longevity. He's just so spent afterwards.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Perocore said:


> The fifth episode just occurred, and was worse than the others. After a few seconds of running he froze and rolled onto his back then started jerking and trembling uncontrollably, then suddenly scurried into the corner and continued to jerk and twitch violently, closing and opening his eyes on random. Lasted about 15 seconds before he stopped and lay still. His body was incredibly hot, and worried about fever I attempted to scoop him up to move him, but he did not want physical contact- I'm guessing he's overheating. I soaked a washcloth in cold water, squeezed excess water out and folded it up for him to lay on. He's now laying with most of his body on it. He's very exhausted now, and groomed a bit before falling asleep.He had food available this time, so it was not blood sugar. However I did have some male crickets mature and start chirping- apparently male crickets do emit ultrasonic sounds if they hear other ultrasound, and I have multiple male crickets. Likely a note in their chirping is ultrasonic.
> 
> 
> What's peculiar as that, after doing some research, I found out rats actually communicate using ultrasound...so that ultrasound would trigger seizures is just odd. And I still don't know if that's the cause. The only other new thing was some new vegetable based food (mixed in with their current kibble), and my sister's new parakeet. We already have a parakeet though, so that shouldn't be a problem (and they're not in the same rooms).
> ...


Let's hope that he gets a medication an dosage that works for him.... Poor little guy... I agree, I would not give him back to the breeder (to each his own, but once I take in an animal, I feel like I'm promising to take care of it and to accept its circumstances...they become a furry part of my family) 

Let's really hope you can minimize these seizures with meds and prevention. I'm praying for you guys! Poor baby..


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

BEWs are known to be epileptic, that's why breeding them is generally not good. The sounds that set them off can vary from rat to rat, just like epilepsy is different from person to person. For example my dog is epileptic and is set off in the cold weather and in stress. The term epilepsy just means they have seizures but we don't know why - the brains misfiring, but no other cause is known. 


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Do you guys know if scented laundry detergent could be bothering him? 

Another possibility of my mom's...she's trying to avoid bringing him to the vet. Last night was fine. But I'm sure it will happen again, unfortunately. I'm just afraid that it will get so expensive that we won't be able to continue long enough to actually help him.


Does anyone know if these frequent seizures will affect Styles' longevity? Or how exactly seizures affect one's health?



On a better note, the boys are officially 2 months old today!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

If it is epilepsy, there shouldn't be an affect on health or life span so long as the seizures are controlled - if he has a grand mal, has a fever, stops breathing the damage is permanent an usually fatal. My dog was diagnosed with epilepsy and we are as of yet monitoring the condition as her focal seizures present no secondary symptoms (fever).


If it is something more, causing the seizures (which blood work can determine, as with watching for neural signs - have them trace kidney function as well as sugar levels) then it's a different story. structural defect or cancer/tumor come to mind, as well as infections. 

I doubt the detergent as I don't do anything special for my rats. I like lavender detergent too much. Softener of course can cause myco flare ups and URIs. 

You need to explain that caught sooner is better than dead later. 


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## Nathan4d (Feb 17, 2013)

I would insist on the vets now as it wasn't just once or twice. Chances are he will be put onto anti seizure meds x


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## Maddie (Jan 13, 2014)

As everyone else has said putting him on anti seizure medication is your best bet. I know it can be difficult when you're a minor and do not have the say over all these things. I do remember though even with my dog thy did testing and waited a while before they would even consider giving him medication. It started to cause some cover a to perminant damage since his seizures were so lengthy. It's best to take him now in case they do have a waiting process or tests to run.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, I mentioned to my mom once more that he needs to see the vet as none of the attempts to change the environment for the better are helping it, and that hopefully getting him on meds will help, but that he needs a prescription to get the medicine. She finally just agreed to take him in, but not until after the storm passes. 

I called the vet again, found out the the Office Charge is ($43), and will be filling out the new client form shortly.

Hopefully the "storm" passes soon and we can get him in asap. 

We did have another fantastic play date, at any rate!


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