# Boy, they learn fast!



## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Long story short, I rescued two ill-kept, unsocialized rats four days ago. One of them was a biter (and she's pretty neurotic, too, by the way) and the other was a hider. I've only ever had experience with rats I selected for myself before, and as a result, I've never had a problem rat, so teaching them to behave themselves is a new thing for me, and I've been feeling a bit uncertain about it. However, after four days of minimal work with them (I've been working all day and haven't had the time to really sit down with them), Gidget the Shy has started coming out to greet me when I enter the room. She's doing great and is already on her way to becoming a wonderful companion. Next step: teach her her name! The biter, Emily, is more of a problem. She's bitten me hard enough to draw blood three times, and although she's been more gentle these last two days, she's still grabbing at me with her teeth. Because of her tendencies towards pushiness and neuroses, I'd like to teach her not just to be gentle but to keep her teeth off of me altogether. It seems to be deeply ingrained in her, though. Do you think I should just continue with a firm "No!" and back in the cage with her, or will I have to try something different, like putting something bitter on my fingers? I'd rather not have to try that because it can't be pleasant being handled by something that smells bitter.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I would try immersion. There's a wonderful thread by Rat Daddy (the rat whisperer lol) that would benefit the both of you. I would take time to sit down and read it through and through. The advice in that thread is invaluable. It's rather lengthy but definitely worth the read. That thread has saved and mended more rat/human relationships than I care to count. 

Here's the link to the thread: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?67442-Immersion-Training-The-Guide

I wish you luck.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks! I've been reading that thread, and it's a wonderful way to interact with rats! I'm really impressed, and plan to devote a day to immersion next time I have one off.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Rat Daddy's immersion is just fantastic. It's a very new, and not yet accepted method in the rat world. Who knows... perhaps it will never be accepted. Rat owners are very hesitant to accept new ideas.

Trust training seems to be the favorite of veteran rat owners, and it works well for other pets, but rats are just too darn intelligent. They need tough love.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm sure it doesn't have to be THAT tough.  Emily isn't vicious, just pushy and inconsiderate. I get the impression from reading Rat Daddy's thread that rather than demonstrating simple toughness, I'll need to assert my competence. She has to learn to trust me to take care of her better than she can take care of herself. So, yeah, I'll have to show her I'm tough, but I'll also have to show her I'm smart and loving and that I understand her needs. Right?

I'm really looking forward to trying immersion. I hope I do it right!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

This is an interesting case in that both flavors of immersion might come into play. Most likely Emily has become dominant and protective due to human neglect and Gidget has become more shy and submissive.. If Gidget bonds too well, too fast to you Emily is likely to try and protect her from you and assert her dominance, so Emily is the first priority, she should be brought on board first. She's the natural leader and as she might become hostile should be immersed alone at first. When working with a rat that might bite you, it's always one on one because you don't want to get distracted and bitten.

Immerse Emily, take a towel and some oven mitts along just in case things go south. Try to make it a play session but if things get hostile... don't back down and don't toss Emily back in the cage... Rats don't understand time outs! A rat bites you and you put it back in the cage and it sees a victory not a defeat and it gets more aggressive.

The trust training version of dealing with biting rats went something like this.... You bring your rat out and eventually it bits you so you put it back in the cage where it wanted to be in the first place, so it learns to bite you faster and harder each day until you keep your hands out of the cage altogether. When the other rats in the cage begin to bond with you, the aggressive rat attacks them to enforce social order based on it's alpha status... The dominant rat has a pretty bad life trapped in it's cage defending it's turf, the lesser rats wind up getting bitten and the human winds up with an out of control situation that's very hard to fix. 

So faced with a rat that is aggressive you need to overcome this problem by backing it down not by backing down from it. You can't bond with a rat that's already attached to you. Especially if it's attached to you by it's teeth to your nose.

Keep in mind you are only communicating your social status and trying to establish your parental roll, once Emily gets the message, you move right on to play and bonding. Fix aggression first then bond and communicate. As the new alpha, don't try and be a dictator, be a parent. Then teach her her name and how to live in your home through love and leadership not violence.

Once Emily is on the right page you're going to bring in Gidget or immerse her one on one. This should be a much lighter and more playful session... soft touch not hockey gloves. Be engaging and give treats and skritches and hugs and build trust to get her to understand you are her friend and yes... you are her parent too.

Immersion theory always remains the same... You are dealing with intelligent and emotional animals. You are trying to establish a foundation of communication. And you are building a family structure where both humans and rats can interact and thrive.

To this end, you adapt your message and methods to the specific needs of the rat. You don't submit to an aggressive rat and you don't overwhelm a shy one... 

If Emily doesn't bite you and doesn't become aggressive, don't bully her. Move right on to bonding... and if you don't like nips an immediate and gently head bop (with love in your heart) and a strong "no biting" should work. You always try to respond to your rat immediately as rats live in the moment, and you only use the force necessary to build understanding... you never punish a rat... you teach them. 

Yes, extreme immersion has become associated with mortal combat that can get really ugly before it gets good and extreme immersion is the best and sometimes the only way to fix a biting and aggressive rat, but keep in mind it's the exception and not the rule. 

Engage your rat, see how she responds and reply appropriately to her... Meet apprehension with reassurance, greet friendship with love and repel aggression with force. It's pretty much the basis of all communication between sentient beings. Rats are very smart and they get it fast.

Lastly... (and this is a human mindset thing) rats know what they are biting, they aren't stupid; when a rat bites you it isn't because you taste good or bad. My rats have no problem licking food from my fingers. When a rat bites or mouths you its sending a message... it isn't confusing you with a treat. If you teach your rats like you might a child, it will learn very quickly because it understands. You are not conditioning a flat worm to avoid an electric shock, you are building a relationship with another sentient being... Yes, I know all about behavior modification and operand conditioning and yes it was used on rats and even humans and it got both rats and humans to do various things through treats and shocks, but it never built a single bond or made a single friend or got anyone to fall in love. If you believe in operand conditioning... try shocking your spouse with a cattle prod to get him or her to do the dishes and see how that works out for you. And even treats aren't going to get people to do something they don't want to do for very long. Offer anyone $50.00 to hold your archery target and see just how many near misses they will endure before leaving you forever. Now as legend has it, if someone really loves you and trusts you they will let you shoot an apple off their heads. 

Best luck.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Yay, I'm getting coached!  You're right about Emily being dominant; she pushes Gidget around and seems to be hoping that she can dominate me, too. She definitely likes to be petted and played with; she even gets jealous of Gidget when I'm playing with her instead, and Emily will reach through the bars and grab my pants like a brat, and when I look down at her, she'll give me sad eyes. She's not certain what our relationship to each other is yet, and that's what I'm going to try to fix with immersion, but in the meantime, she keeps testing the boundaries. For example, last night, she gripped my thumb firmly (but not painfully) with her teeth and didn't let go when I pulled away. I actually dragged her a few rat-steps across the cage, and all the time, she was slowly increasing pressure on my thumb. I said "No!" firmly and she let me go, but this is the sort of behavior I need to fix right away, before things get out of hand.

About the "bitter hands" thing, yeah, I thought it was probably a dumb idea. But I was running out of ideas before I read your immersion thread. I feel a lot more confident about our (mine and Emily's) chances now that I have a plan.  Unfortunately, the soonest I can do immersion with her is Tuesday. I don't have a lot of time on the days I'm working, and I definitely don't want to have to stop the process in the middle, so I'm booking the whole day for me and my ratties.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

That sounds like a plan! Working with Emily will teach her limits. It's fine if she asks you to stay with her and hangs on to you or sometimes wants to be left alone and pushes you away. Emily has the right to express her feelings and be understood and respected too. But when communication hurts that's the limit. When our girl Max squeaks it means hands off, she isn't playing any more and we let go. Otherwise no matter how crazy it gets it's fair play. As we understand and respect her squeak, and she doesn't do it often, she has no need to nip or bite to make her point.

Remember, when you get into immersion, communication goes both ways, you set your rules and try to understand and find ways to accommodate your rats needs and concerns too. And if Emily is telling you something, you want to show her you understand her as well as set the limits on her behavior.

Our rat is a spoiled brat, she gets to explore the outdoors, live in the store room, free range indoors 23 hours a day and dine from the kitchen trash... She gets her way 90% of the time, but there are strict rules, she NEVER bites, she doesn't chew wires and she goes to the bathroom in the cage. We do sometimes get on each other's nerves, but we work it out through communication... she's very attentive to new rules and rarely makes the same mistake twice. I bopped her twice for chewing a wire and she hasn't done it again. She likes her private time and we try not to disturb her unless we have to. It's all about understanding each other.

Best luck.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks! I've already been trying to show Emily and Gidget that I understand them by giving them pretty much everything they ask for, as long as it's safe for them and I have time for it. I figure being boss of the house doesn't mean I can't spoil them! ;D I've run into a mild snag with this, though, and that's that they both demand my attention at the same time. So mostly I pull one out of the cage and cuddle and pet her for a minute, then put her back and take out the other one. Lather, rinse, and repeat over and over for, like, an hour.  I can't have them both out at the same time because I can't trust them to come back if they disappear into the house. Neither of them come when called yet.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's practically impossible to lose a rat in a house, but rats are good hiders and might go off to explore for a while so you might not know exactly when they are coming back, which might just cause a problem with certain family members that aren't used to rodents slinking about in the shadows. After a few years my rat phobic wife still isn't entirely on board with Max living in the storage room.

Keep in mind, rats have incredible spacial memories. Fuzzy Rat could find her way back to the house from over half a mile away. She would ride backwards on our shoulder when we took her someplace and could retrace our path back to the house or the car with almost no trouble at all. Rats can also navigate in complete darkness using their whiskers.

We start our rats off exploring pretty quickly once they don't run away from us. Rats tend to explore a room by doing a lap along the wall so we set them free at one end of the room and they pretty much eventually circle back if they can't get out the door into another... If they really like you they will sort of bounce off you and come to you then scurry off to explore some place and then come back. It's a good idea to get a big piece of cardboard or plywood to block off doors between rooms when you start the exploration process. Keep in mind you really can't do too much work on the come command until your rats have a place distant from you from which to come from...

It almost seems strange that as much as we have to talk about tough love and gaining control of your pack and being the alpha, most of what we wind up doing is spoiling the heck out of our rats... but that is the truth. Once rats get the big picture, they usually wind up turning every situation to their advantage and their humans can't help but spoil them rotten.

While its true that some rats will chew stuff, including electrical wires and they will rob you blind, some rats make pretty good roommates. All rats will benefit from out of cage time exploring your home under supervision. I suppose you might choose the safest room in the house to start, but having house competent rats really makes it more fun and easier to live with your rats. Remember, in the wild rats free ranger over many acres to find food and water and shelter. Just because rats can often be found living in a house or a building, doesn't mean they don't explore the entire neighborhood on their nightly patrols.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Cool! My landlady might not be thrilled with free-ranging rats, but I'm sure if I block off access to the rooms that have carpet and then put my foot down about the kitchen, bathroom, and library area, she'll let me let them run around there. Are rats generally easy to potty train?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

We potty trained our first rat like I would a dog and the rest have potty trained themselves or perhaps each other.... So I'd say yes, for us is was pretty easy.


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

And how do you prevent gnawing damage?


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## George? (Apr 1, 2014)

Okay, for some reason the "edit" option isn't showing up on my posts right now. So, sorry for the double post.

I just finished immersion with Emily, and it went really smoothly! (Part of that might be that she's elderly and seems a little arthritic, and does more sleeping than anything.) She poked around the bathroom for a short while with me following her and keeping in close contact, and then she climbed right into my lap for skritches and snuggles. She fell asleep in the crook of my arm, woke up once to go potty on the towel I used to block the gap under the door, and then climbed into my lap and went back to sleep. She was really happy to get so much attention all to herself, and bruxed and boggled like a ... well ... a really, really happy rat. I genuinely think she's just been waiting for someone to pay attention to her all this time. An amusing note: I've NEVER seen boggling like that! She reminded me of those stress-buster toys that you squeeze and the eyes pop out. ;D I didn't try tipping her over to rub her belly because, like I said, I think she's got some arthritis and I didn't want to hurt her. But, overall, we had a great time together and I feel like we've really bonded well.  Thanks, Rat Daddy, for all the advice and for the idea of immersion as well. (Thanks also to Fuzzy Rat.) I keep going back to what you said in one of your posts in the immersion thread about how the number one barrier to having a great rat is failure to realize you've already got one. I don't think Gidget and Emily's first family understood that, and I hope I can make it up to these girls so they can spend the rest of their lives feeling like part of the family.

Gidget is next, and I think it'll be a blast! She's really active and inquisitive, so I think immersion will be fun for her.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

That's exactly what immersion is supposed to look and feel like. And that's the special bond you really want with your rats. That's the bond you use to be alpha to your pack... a parent and a leader not a dictator. And it's really fun and rewarding to do. There's actually a big difference between reading immersion and doing it. You sort of start out wondering if you've lost your mind to be sitting there with a rat... then you start bonding with each other and understanding each other and you never want that special relationship to end... 

All that boggling and bruxing was Emily understanding your offer of friendship and telling you how she felt about you and how happy she was that you were there for her. She understood you and I think you got her message too. Basically, you have communicated. Yes the message was pretty simple.... "I like you, I'm here for you and lets be friends..." Imagine how simple that message is and yet how profound. Lots of humans can't get that message across to another human and be understood... 

As Emily's new friend, parent and alpha, she's going to start taking cues from you and she will try to understand you and please you... you can try to discourage chewing on valuable stuff. Max, is a strange rat, but she learns very fast... I told her not to chew wires and she doesn't.. I told her not to walk on my keyboard and again she doesn't. Fuzzy Rat was a brilliant rat, but she was also very self confident... If she wanted attention, she would stomp on my keyboard and cut wires. She knew she wasn't supposed to do things and did them anyway. It definitely wasn't her most charming quality, but that independence and persistence is what got me to notice her and understand her in the first place. 

Really there's no way to know how your rats will react to you teaching them to behave properly indoors until you try. I've had two rats that didn't chew wires, one that did it rarely and one that did it on purpose... They all understood the rules, but didn't all follow them. 

Work with your rats and try to teach them household manners and maybe your rats will get the rules and become indoor house safe too... Keep in mind Fuzzy Rat was mostly an outdoor rat and only got trapped indoors in the winter, otherwise we took her outside every day the weather was warm enough. We didn't spend much time teaching her indoor manners when she was young. And by the time we let her go indoors, she had been free ranging beaches and parks and all kinds of places already where scratching up and chewing stuff was encouraged.

But I'm glad you had fun and that you and Emily really got each other. I hope your session with Gidget goes just as well. I think you guys are on your way to a beautiful friendship.

Nice Job!


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