# Outta curiousity..



## Charlotte1990 (Jul 5, 2013)

I try and spend as much time as possible with my 3 rats, at least 2 hours a day. But I was wondering, if my rats are in the cage with 2 other rats, is human bonding time actually neccesary? Or are they fine just as long as they have rat company? By the way, this doesn't mean I plan on neglecting my rats at all!

By the way, I'm in a very good mood today because I finally managed to put all 3 of my rat boys in the same cage yesterday with no fighting whatsoever, and I woke up today and Russell & Reggie were cuddling! This is major progress considering this time last week I had to squirt them with water to split them up! It seemed to be a long process doing introductions but I'm glad it has paid off, and Russell seems alot happier not to be sat on his own in the cage watching the other 2 playing.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

Rats don't need humans. Our holding them does nothing for their emotional needs. They need each other. 

Them needing us, no. We need them to fulfill our emotional needs. Not the other way around.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

You are a member of their ratty family, so I'm pretty sure they would be depressed. On top of that, they could get fat, lazy, and aggressive. If you didn't bond with them but they still got time out of the cage, they might still have a decent quality of life.


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## Timberlee Fields (Aug 2, 2013)

We may not be a part of their emotional needs but they could quickly become unsociable and I'd imagine it would be very hard for them to trust you again.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I disagree about emotional needs. I would say a rat needs it's pack. And in bonded pet rats, we _are_ their pack. If you never bonded with them, then clearly you wouldn't be a packmate and necessary for happiness. I think looking at rats who've lost a cage mate and shown depression demonstrates their pack fulfills an emotional need.

My male clearly wants affection. He is kept alone, while my female nurses her kits. Today, he was trying to teach me to properly groom him (I believe). 
He was grabbing my hands while I was fussing in his cage. I thought he was telling me to get out until he started to do this bizarre thing...he began licking my fingers then darting underneath my hand and stretching out as if for skritches. Confused, I obliged. He really _really_ enjoyed it. Normally, I just scratch him like normal. Today, every time I stopped he would give my fingers a lick and run beneath them. Now, the reason I believe he is trying to teach me to be a rat is because I've seen rats groom - they wet their paws, then groom.


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## Anathema (Jul 31, 2013)

I think human bonding time is essential. Without it you would have very unsociable rats who wouldnt know how to behave around humans. Trust and a strong bond develops from interacting with them. My rats have always enjoyed coming out of the cage and seek out attention whether it is from another rat or a human.


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## JBird (May 23, 2013)

Like others have said, in terms of actual needs, our bonding time is not "necessary" when they have a pack to be with. However, it is extremely rewarding to both of you! If your rats have already bonded to you, yes, it is very important to give them some of your time and interaction. However, I don't think you necessarily need to do hours and hours out every day. Rats are adaptable, strong creatures; living in a cage the majority of their life renders them mostly independent and self sufficient. They do not need us or rely on us THAT much and would ultimately be "fine" without our lovin'. Not like a dog (who is totally dependent and devoted) would. 

Single rats need more, but rats with buddies need each other, and _like_ their humans. An unsociable rat is still a healthy rat, but by living in a house in a cage with people around, it is easier on the rat to feel at ease and happy in their home by trusting and loving the humans that surround them.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

We aren't part of the rats pack. We cannot communicate back and forth with them or sleep with them. That's why they can't live alone. Except under extreme situations with an aggressive rat. Rats are not dogs.....

We do nothing for them emotionally. They can socialize with other rats not us. 

And rats don't loose their sweetness if you don't hold them. They aren't like love birds who are known for that if not held daily. Rats are going to stay sweet if they are genetically predisposed to do so. You don't have to hold them a lot to keep them that way.

However if the rat is not genetically predisposed to sweet behavior it's best to hold them more to keep the training going. So they don't forget.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I believe we are part of their pack to them but they also realize we are not a rat because we bond to them and they play with us and groom us like they would another rat but we just don't go back to the cage with them. I think it is important to spend time with them because they do need out of the cage and if they are left in the cage all the time they won't be used to you anymore. Also if you leave for a while and don't come back some rats get depressed like they do when the grief over a lost cage mate. No we are not a rat and can't fulfill a rats needs of another rat but once you and your rats are bonded they do need you because they are connected to you and do miss you when your gone. If I leave them by their selves in the cage all day and don't let them out they get mad at me I know this because they ignore me and won't come see me when I go in my room. Normally if i let them out then out them in the cage they are at the cage door waiting for me to let them out or say hi to me. So I think they do need us and do think of us as part as their pack but an " adopted rat" haha


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

I disagree that they don't need us. I believe once we enter their lives and bond to them, they need us. When I am near them, they are much more interested in me than each other. They beg to be held and cuddled and my London will jump into my arms during play time outside. They chose to be by me, they chose to crawl up my arm and sleep on my shoulder. I put them back and they do it again. Well bonded rats want to be with their people. My rats were devestated when I went on vacation, after three days of not coming around they stopped eating and taking treats and just payed at the coder of the cage waiting for me. My brother said several days passed before they resumed eating. 

Rats for very strong bonds with their humans and once we enter their lives they count on us to be there. 

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Respectfully.... The very idea that domestic rats don't need their humans is absurd. And it's wrong on so many levels... 

First of all every rat pack needs an alpha, in nature a rat does this job, it increases it's hormones and leads its pack, defending them from adversaries and maintaining order. In a cage without any enemies or challenges when a rat goes alpha and hormonal it often starts beating up it's own cage mates sometimes to the point of killing them.

Second, rats do communicate with their humans and understand us. From my experience rat's that bond with humans don't seem to draw any distinctions between their human and rat packmates. In fact, many rats would actually prefer to nap on or with their humans than with other rats. Just about every rat I've ever owned preferred the company of humans over other rats.

Third, I've raised a very happy and well adjusted only rat, yes we were around 24X7 and she went everywhere with us so she was never left alone, but she absolutely had no need for another rat and when she got friends she remained bonded to her human family over her rat friends. Of course she bonded with her roomies, but they got left in the dust when we were there and available for play or interaction.

It's fine to argue that wild rats don't have human alphas and they do pretty well without us. And we can draw many lessons from nature... BUT the domestic environment is not nature and there are differences. In nature large packs range over many acres to find food, shelter and water, they deal with constant threats and focus much of their attention and energy on survival and reproduction. An indoor domestic environment eliminates just about everything rats actually do in nature. Our pet rats aren't breeding and gathering food for their offspring, they aren't teaching their young, they aren't fending off dangerous predators and they aren't scavenging about all night looking for little scraps of food or hunting mice and bugs for a meal. Domestic packs need their human leader, it's an unnatural solution for an unnatural environment.

Sweetness is not a genetic trait in rats, it's learned. If anyone has any doubts, I know where there is a large cage of jumbo rats that have never been socialized to human touch, I'm not crazy enough to stick my hand in there, but plenty of the pet shop employees who tried and got bit will tell you there's nothing inherently sweet about rats that don't know humans from a young age... and there are plenty of threads here from people that have brought home unsocialized rats that include aggression and biting being fixed through communication and bonding with their humans... 

As to rats not being dogs... perhaps they are not, but both are pack animals, and both bond with humans, rats are intelligent and emotional learning creatures and they are metacognative which gives them certain advantages over dogs. Most dog training techniques work with rats too and in both cases they are based on building a bond between human and animal.

Lastly, just about every psychological study done on rats equates to actual human behavior, (note we are also pack animals and metacognative) so I think its fair to assume that our ability to bond with other species is shared by our rats... and that is based on logic alone, for those of us who have or have had special relationships with out rats, doing is believing.

Famous Amos, if you were talking about snakes I'd agree with you, they are in fact born with personalities. If you hurt them, you can screw them up and a little gentle handling once in the while will keep them handleable. But this is a primitive reptile brain. Rats are pretty much at the pinnacle of rodent evolution. Rodents started out back with the dinosaurs and have evolved through many thousands if not millions of generations, and rats do a couple dozen generations to our one... Consider how much faster they can evolve. Their brains may be small, but they are mammals and their brains are highly evolved and sophisticated. Rats are the second most successful animal on earth because of their amazing brains, and for the most part they have piggie-backed their success on ours for hundreds of years and unlike dogs for the most part we were trying to kill them not nurture them.

I was blessed to work with Fuzzy Rat over the course of her life, and I knew her to be intelligent and emotional and she communicated with us very well and she understood us and we developed the entire theory of immersion based on rats being able to communicate with humans and build primary bonds with us even over their rat packmates. And immersion works, and people that have done immersion will tell you they have bidirectional bonds and communication with their rats.

Long ago, before I met Fuzzy Rat and before I owned and worked with rats, I might have agreed with you... rats shouldn't be intelligent and emotional, they shouldn't be able to bond and communicate with humans and they shouldn't need us as their pack alphas, but they are, they can and they do. I was not an easy convert, but you really might want to trust me on this one, it will improve your relationship with your rats once you have a dialogue with them. If you aren't looking for your rats to communicate with you, they may not be looking for you to communicate with them either; in which case you are missing out on the true wonder of owning rats.

I don't mean to sound harsh or be contradictory, but I'm pretty adamant on this topic. When rats act like small unintelligent animals, it's usually because they are being treated that way.


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## Mball77 (Jul 3, 2013)

Any animal can bond with any animal. I used to think lizard type animals had no understanding of higher thinking or emotion as we understand it but the more we learn about animals and communication they never cease to surprise me. Google Poncho the crocodile. I never ever ever thought anything with a reptilian brain would be capable of anything even remotely reflecting emotion or not eating your face. I've always brushed off reptiles as pets because I thought there could be no bond but once again I learn something new every day. http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=53955 Or this kid with his snake http://www.hoaxorfact.com/Miscellan...5-meter-long-python-snake-facts-analysis.html. Mind you those are not pet animals but now I have more respect for reptiles. Or even http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1905363.stm, the Lioness that adopts baby gazelles (though mammals have way more developed brains). Or Christian the lion, watch the video...thought he was gonna eat those dudes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE There are badger and coyote hunting teams in the wild and crows adopting kittens. I think any animal (especially pack animals) can bond and have emotional needs toward other species. I don't think common or normal but it can happen and more so when there is a larger effort on the rat owners part. 


Loki used to be alpha. My rats fought once they hit puberty. I admit, I was stupid to assume that rats where not like dogs in the sense that they needed me to be the alpha for peace among my pack. I use the dog whisper techniques on freaken people but assuming my rats weren't developed enough was stupid. I read immersion, became alpha and I kid you not, peace was achieved. Former alpha Loki now comes up to me for protection from loud noises and when his cage mate is causing him grief. Its survival which is a whole other need. Animals are calmer when they don't need to be alpha. I swear its like a burden is taken off of them. 

Also years of domestication means very little when an animal is set loose or unsocialized. Dogs are mans best friend but after hurricane Katrina beloved house dogs became feral easily. Survival needs and emotional needs are two very different things. When it comes down to it animals will do what they need to survive but they to can reach a sense of serenity where one's needs become something different. 

Sorry for the rant. I had a very different view of animals after reading some pretty huge breakthroughs in studies of animal behavior that really blew my mind. I pretty much wrote off every animal that wasn't a mammal or some birds as running off instinct and didn't think much about them. I've been schooled once again.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I didn't mean to put down herps... I actually had a turtle that followed me around the house and begged for food, although so far I haven't seen a snake nearly that social, but you are right, just because I haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

My only point was that rats brains are very evolved. We were blessed by sharing Fuzzy Rat's life with her, she was more self actualized than some humans I've known. Immersion is based on our life with her and based on inter-species bonding and communication and as I've said, anyone who has gone through the process successfully can testify that rats need a human alpha and friend in order to be happy in a household they share with their humans.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

I do not agree that humans are a rats Alfa at all. We don't have a place in their colony. There's no scientific basis that states this.

They love us yes. And want to be with us. But can we be an Alfa no. Anyone with Alfa rats in the cony knows your not the Alfa of that rat. The Alfa runs the show in that cage and colony. Not the human. 

We are our rats friend.


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## FamilyRatters1 (Jun 22, 2013)

Famous Amos said:


> I do not agree that humans are a rats Alfa at all. We don't have a place in their colony. There's no scientific basis that states this.
> 
> They love us yes. And want to be with us. But can we be an Alfa no. Anyone with Alfa rats in the cony knows your not the Alfa of that rat. The Alfa runs the show in that cage and colony. Not the human.
> 
> ...


We are their friend and can be their Alpha. It is in my opinion that you can become a rats Alpha. I also believe that the reason that you don't think so, is because you have never been one.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Famous Amos said:


> I do not agree that humans are a rats Alfa at all. We don't have a place in their colony. There's no scientific basis that states this.
> 
> They love us yes. And want to be with us. But can we be an Alfa no. Anyone with Alfa rats in the cony knows your not the Alfa of that rat. The Alfa runs the show in that cage and colony. Not the human.
> 
> ...


We may not be a rat alpha but I was just playing with my girls and she rolled over as I was tickling her belly. Rats do this when they surrender to the alpha rat or the more dominate one. So I think yes in away you could be alpha but you just do not live in the age with them. 


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

That's just like how dog people thought we could be a dogs Alfa. They thought that for decades. I grew up believing it. But that's not what current dog veterans think. Not for the past decade. That's old old thinking.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Famous Amos, 

There are many people in this forum that are the alpha's of their packs, myself included. And there are lots of threads where people had fighting rats, and became the alphas, often through immersion and once they took charge the fighting stopped. And we have seen cases where people got busy and gave up their alpha role and rat packs devolved into fighting and disorder.

You have come far enough to agree that rats and humans can be friends... it's not that much of a leap to accept that humans can also be pack alphas and even less of a leap to understand that things work best when they are.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Famous Amos said:


> That's just like how dog people thought we could be a dogs Alfa. They thought that for decades. I grew up believing it. But that's not what current dog veterans think. Not for the past decade. That's old old thinking.
> 
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There is always a new flavor of the month. As you said for decades people were their dog's alphas, and they managed to have great relationships with their dogs. And I've seen what happens when people aren't the alpha's with their dogs. I've had a few very fine dogs, including a partially trained seeing eye dog, and I worked with a military dog trainer. Successful human - dog relationships are based on the human being the alpha. 

Seriously, this is not to be confused with just being dominant, an alpha is more of a parent to it's pack than a boss. And the relationship is based on love as much as it is on respect.

But if there's some new theory that says that humans shouldn't be their dog pack's alpha, I for one haven't gotten the memo. And I can't believe that all of the dogs that have been raised so successfully over the past few decades (including seeing eye dogs and military dogs that will give their lives under fire for their owners and platoons) were actually screwed up by us being so wrong.


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## FamilyRatters1 (Jun 22, 2013)

I am the Alpha of my dog. 

If you were an Alpha, you would understand. Trust me.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

With the newer more up to date ways military trainers are using I am not sure how using the old methods apply. Military trainers don't even use those old methods. 

But I prefer to keep up to date on science and training methods. And I have an open mind.

Old school is fine for some, but I am not afraid of change. People don't have to like change, but I like up to date thinking that's proven and works. And it's been a very long time that even the AKC trainers have stopped using the old Alfa method. Having said that there is no reason to think rats are the same as old school dog trainers used to think. Rats are not the same. And that's extremely backwards thinking.

Therefore I am leaving the thread. 




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## FamilyRatters1 (Jun 22, 2013)

My inner Nazi is coming out and I must tell you, you are incorrectly spelling "Alpha". I'm sorry, my family hates when I do it and it was killing me not to say it sooner.

A rat's mind is just like ours. We basically share genetics. Why do you think they are used for testing?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats aren't dogs and in our homes they do need us to be their leader and parent or alpha....

But you have got me curious... I will look around for whatever replaced the human alpha method of raising dogs, if I ever have another dog, it might be good to know. Somehow, I've really got to doubt that putting your dog in charge of your household is going to work, but I'm open minded too.

When I was in college rats were regarded as stimulus motivated reactionary small animals... But the same psychology department I belonged to also thought the same for humans... Those were the days of BF Skinner and operand conditioning... I came to the conclusion way back then that they were wrong about humans, it took my another 30 years to arrive at the conclusion they were wrong about rats too. 

Cutting edge psychology now deals with metacognition, and there is some debate, but most studies have shown rats to be metacognative just like us.

Everyone can believe as they like, and they can choose to treat their rats as small animals that only react to instinct and stimulus or they can choose to believe that rats are intellegent, and emotional, learning animals.

If you believe that rats are just reacting to stimulus, there's trust training and forced socialization, if you believe that rats are intelligent and can communicate and emotionally bond with you, and accept you as their alpha, there's immersion.

Everyone can choose what they believe... I developed immersion in co-operation with an intelligent, bidirectionally communicative and metacognative rat... So I know where I stand on this issue.


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## Mball77 (Jul 3, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> I didn't mean to put down herps... I actually had a turtle that followed me around the house and begged for food, although so far I haven't seen a snake nearly that social, but you are right, just because I haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> 
> My only point was that rats brains are very evolved. We were blessed by sharing Fuzzy Rat's life with her, she was more self actualized than some humans I've known. Immersion is based on our life with her and based on inter-species bonding and communication and as I've said, anyone who has gone through the process successfully can testify that rats need a human alpha and friend in order to be happy in a household they share with their humans.


Oh, that part about snakes and reptiles wasn't a reaction to the thing you said about snakes! It was more about how animals or any living creature isn't really hard wired to fit in it's typecast. Life isn't a program in a computer that has to follow strict commands in its programing. It was more about cross species bonding, especially the more unusual ones or even the more solitary reptilian brained examples. I would put rat brains above snake brains anyday and if that snake and that boy have a bond like that I have no doubt humans and rats can share deep seeded bonds.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Famous Amos said:


> With the newer more up to date ways military trainers are using I am not sure how using the old methods apply. Military trainers don't even use those old methods.
> 
> But I prefer to keep up to date on science and training methods. And I have an open mind.
> 
> ...


Actually, as Immersion is a new method only recently developed I would say that you are being the backwards thinker... Saying you are open to new ideas and then dismissing the notion that humans can become the alpha of a pack? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

If you continue to see rats in this way, then I guess you'll never experience the rich relationship that a person can have with their rats, and for that I feel sorry for you. But I guess it's your choice whether you decide to embrace this way of thinking or deny it. But at least give it a chance. From what I can tell based on your posts, you've kept rats for a long time and I've noticed you've responded negatively to many posts on here that give advice and current information, myself included. I would therefore deduce that it is in fact you, not us, that is stuck in the past.

I understand that what you are saying is that technically, if you count how a rat works and it's actual place in nature, that you cannot "literally" become the alpha as it were, as it's not hard-wired into the rat's DNA, even domesticated ones. However, the notion that rats can't communicate with you? Ridiculous on so many levels. What would you make of a rat nudging you then, or one that boggles when you stroke it? That's basic rat communication right there and it's foolish to deny it. The fact that rats can even get depression should tell you a lot about these magnificent creatures and how they're very complex and emotionally developed.

And as to your first reply to the thread, I understand what you're trying to say about rats not "needing" humans. Yes, you could own pet rats and give them a cage and if they could magically find water and food, they'd be entirely content by themselves. However, as they are PETS they are designed to interact with us on another level and with rats this is especially true based on the fact they are so intelligent. The assumption I am getting from you is that they are mindless rodents, like drones in a colony. Yes some rats are born sweet, but this is just their natural disposition. However, this kind of behaviour can be taught to a rat, given the right amount of time and emotional investment into their lives. I've seen this happen with my own two eyes with one of my old rats Hazel, who my girlfriend now owns. She started off as a nervous, neurotic little monster of a rat who bit and now she's so floppy, letting you pick her up and give her cuddles. You try and tell me that change occurred of her own doing, because that's wrong. It occurred due to human emotional interaction, with investment from both owner and rat.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

Ratclaws you obviously do not understand rats. And you have some new odd ideas. But that does not change the nature if the animal. I sorry. But that's just very weird thinking. You are entitled to it though.

You also need to remember while emersion is accepted be (some) on this group. The rest of the world does not. This is the only safe place to accept it.

And it's not ok to demean people that don't buy into it. As I've seen many on this forum don't. 

Your limited experience with people and rats shows. And I don't appreciate your calling me Hypocritical and Ridiculous.

I am pretty sure I've got more rat experience in one month of rat owning then you have all together.

So I don't appreciate your ranting and fingerprinting. Constantly.

It's not your idea or the highway. Sorry.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

Sorry for the typos my phone refuses to have proper spelling and grammar.


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## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

I agree with ratclaws. 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm just stating mine here.
You say ratclaws "obviously" doesn't understand rats, but I think you'll find yourself heavily outnumbered with people who agree with him.
So in that logic you may very well be one of the few or only person on this forum who actually understands rats.
And to presume one month of experience with rats is more than he has all together is just rude and ridiculous.

You can think your rat is an emotionless unadaptable animal all you want.
Not going to change my view in the least.

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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

Rats aren't emotionless you said that. And me being treated rude doesn't mean I was rude. 

It means there's is more than one way to think. And the way on this group is new and only used here. That's fact. And it's not the only right way. Also fact.


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## Dinoclor (Mar 2, 2013)

I actually agree with ratclaws too. I've had Flaxie for 5 months and she will jump towards the front of the cage when I near it, climb out when I open it, and goes straight onto my shoulder. When I sit down for a while she trusts me enough to fall asleep on me. My brothers rats will do similar things for them. If that doesn't mean anything, then what do you think rats are? I don't think they are unfeeling automatons that do not ever grow to care for a creature who cares for them and cuddles with them. I don't think they are just taking advantage of us to fall asleep on a warm body. But Flaxie never used to trust me enough to sit on me while eating when I first got her, even after she'd decided she'd eat food out of the cage. Now she trusts me enough to cuddle and fall asleep on me, which is something she does with her fellow rats. She won't fall asleep on my brothers or my mom, just me. I don't think I'm anthropomorphizing, I think she recognizes me as something. I think she has emotions.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

That actually proves my point exactly. And doesn't prove the Alfa theory. Rats love us and want to be with us. But it does not prove we are the Alfa.

Next time your rat pushes one over in dominance, or takes food from another, try and prove your Alfa in the colony then. When the Alfa rat just disproved it. 

You cannot take the place of the cages Alfa. 

You can however develop a close relationship with the rat.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'll just chime in here. Famous Amos didn't really say he thought they were emotionless. And I agree, the type of training one uses to bond with their rat varies from place to place. I was scared of immersion, thought it was forced socialization which isn't how I wanted to bond with my rat. If my rats didn't have the starting personality they did, I couldn't have done it.
I didn't use immersion on my dog, who is a runt from an abusive backyard breeder. It took three weeks to get her to stop hiding from me. It took two months to get her to sleep with me. Almost a year to reach the point we are now. She is 9 years in 2014 and we have just got to the point where she can go to the vet and groomer; she can go on car rides and sometimes she'll cuddle others. She took a treat from a handiman. There are different ways to approach animals, none really better than the other in my opinion. It is what fits with you and what fits with your pet.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

That's correct. Positive reinforcement is a good way to train and reprogram bad behaviors. As well as develop a strong bond with rats. And it's the current way of training for dog professionals.

It works wonderfully with rats and helps make that bond strong.

The idea that some on this thread have come up with that rats are emotionless is extremely Ridiculous. And you will have a hard time getting the rat community to believe it. The passion we have for them and them for us is the reason we are in the hobby.


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## Roxy the Rat (Apr 7, 2013)

Nobody is saying that they are emotionless. In fact, that's exactly what everybody is denying. I think it's pretty obvious that rats have emotions. There are so many things that they do that prove it.

And okay, I'm just going to chime in here with my thoughts. To start, I get what you're saying Famous Amos. There is no scientific research to prove that we can be alpha to a rat. And you believe that you are entitled to your own opinion. This is true.

However, like most others on here I believe that you can in fact be alpha to your rats. Yes, they obviously exhibit the fact that they have close bonds with us, and that they trust us and want to curl up with us and whatever else. That's true. But, using the example you have given when they're in their cage and fighting, a lot of members on here can actually get them to stop because they are, in fact, their rats alpha. And there are many things in their relationship with their rats that can prove it.

But I guess, like you've said, you don't believe it. That's fine. We can't change what you think. Nobody can do that but you. But many people above have already given their opinions and beliefs. Maybe your relationship with your rats is as good as everyone here thinks there's is. Or maybe it's not.

Either way, we are happy with our beliefs, and clearly you are happy with yours. There may not be anything proving that we can be an alpha to our rats, but as far as I know, there is nothing to discredit it either. So try not to trod on anyone's finger tips. Don't try and tell us it's impossible unless you have the hard facts to prove it. Sure, feel free to state your opinion. But don't get mad when others disagree, and don't try and tell us we're crazy or outright wrong.

I personally respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. Sure, I'll listen to what you have to say. But I listen to it while shaking my head in disbelief. Because by saying we cannot be their alpha, I think that it is belittling our rats. It is saying that they don't have the intelligence or the ability to relate to it's humans, and it is saying that they see us as little more than how some people treat their pets. I believe that we become their friends, their family, and when effort is put in, their alphas. You say now that it's impossible. But I think that if you tried and actually put effort in, you too could become their alpha. And then you would see a difference in your relationship, and perhaps your opinion would change. 


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

I would not want to change the positive reinforcement Techniques. If you are going to compare rats training to dogs like it was on this thread before I started posting, then don't use 20-30 year old out of date Techniques, based on negative inforcement. Use what's kind, proven and current. That way you can build a strong positive bond. And not through force. Which is the entire basis of the Alfa theory. 

This way you have a better bond out of love and mutual respect.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Famous Amos said:


> I would not want to change the positive reinforcement Techniques. If you are going to compare rats training to dogs like it was on this thread before I started posting, then don't use 20-30 year old out of date Techniques, based on negative inforcement. Use what's kind, proven and current. That way you can build a strong positive bond. And not through force. Which is the entire basis of the Alfa theory.
> 
> This way you have a better bond out of love and mutual respect.
> 
> ...


Famous Amos I see that you are trying to make a point but the whole time it seems you are changing your opinion at first you said that rats don't need us for emotional reasons but now you are sayying they can have emotional connections with us. Yes you do have your own opinion and can stick with it but you also can not put down everyone else's opinions on how to train your rat. You say you like to use up to date training well immersion is it just hasn't worked its way through the whole rat community just like not all other animal training that is up to date that you use that lots haven't heard about yet. I do not understand at all how you can say a small amount of people on here actually use immersion when it's actually a big number of people that have and have had many successes just go read the immersion guide it is a new up to date trust training way. 

I am sure there are lots if people her who are alpha to their rats I am unsure if I am but like to think I am because my rats do not fight they only play and I don't see them being pinned down when playing the other day I was wrestling with one of them and she rolled over on her back to be groomed by me. That is a surrender to the more dominate one which would be the alpha. So I do think that I am the alpha to my rats but I am not going to say I know for sure because I don't I don't know what their saying but I do know what they want when they do something's. No one here is trying to put you down but you are saying that we are all wrong with out even trying the way we have bonded with our rats. I will admit I didn't do immersion with one of my rats because I though she was fine but now she really only comes to sit with me when she knows I have treats. 

We are being open to your thoughts but I feel you are not being open to ours. We both do not have proof that one is better then the other scientifically so really either one if these opinions could be better then the other. 

I think this whole debate should stop here because it is not getting anyone anywhere.


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

Nope never changed my thoughts once. Rats don't need us. They can be perfect happy without us. 

However if we are in their life and we have bud a positive relationship with them they can enjoy that too. 

I have not changed any of my thinking. I still do not believe training based on force is appropriate nor it it making us an Alfa. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Famous Amos said:


> Nope never changed my thoughts once. Rats don't need us. They can be perfect happy without us.
> 
> However if we are in their life and we have bud a positive relationship with them they can enjoy that too.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean all your thinking but some of it and immersion is not forced they can get off of us if they want to or even hide, it depend on the severity of how unsocial the rat it is. When I did immersion with my rats I was hands on and in a small space but if they tried to get away from me I let them and let them hide for a bit if they went to hide but not the whole time because I would have gotten no wheres. I do not regret how I was with my rats if I had hurt them or scared them they wouldn't have come near me or to the door of their cage to come out and climb on me. If I scared them and they felt like they were being hurt or attacked I am sure they would have bit me along with everyone else who has done immersion their rats could have done the same. Also we do not become full alpha through immersion it is the extra stuff along with it that makes us the alpha. I believe that we are not forcing them its the same as taming a hamster you have to pick them up no matter what even if they are going to bite to learn the big hand in their home isn't going to hurt them but just pick them up and love them or give them treats. If forcing animals to interact with you is wrong then no one would have pets because no one would have bonded with any animal all domesticated animals came from the start of wild animals and to tame a wild animal you have to be hands on and forceful with getting them to trust you.


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## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

I think immersion is less forced than trust training via cage.
While they are in the cage they are in a much smaller space that they don't have anywhere to run to. I know with my girl Peanut Butter, she was scared out of her mind during trust training and she had nowhere she could hide that wasn't in my reach.
It has taken months for her to even get comfortable around me.
Immersion would have been so much easier and less stressful on her.

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, I don't recall the techniques we used 20-30 years ago to train dogs as being based on negative reinforcement. Yes, it was part of the package but every good dog trainer I knew principally based their training on positive reinforcement. Perhaps the seeing eye dog folks were a bit over the top... they were all about electric shocks and choke collars, but their dog's behavior was mission critical and their techniques were both extreme and unique. If their dogs screwed up, people died. And once the dogs left Morristown, their new masters were all about positive reinforcement.

But immersion isn't based on negative reinforcement, it's based on communication. Being a rat's alpha is like being a parent, not a master. And although I never struck my daughter, nor did I ever put her in a single time out, I don't recall giving her a snickers bar for running out into the a busy street when she was small either. I got frightened and upset and communicated and it didn't happen again. Now sometimes as a parent I have my doubts, but my daughter is an honor student and Fuzzy Rat was about as self actualized as a rat gets, so I'm not entirely wrong in my methods.

With classical negative reinforcement you are administering a painful stimulus in hopes of getting a Pavlovian conditioned aversion response. When you do something that might be unpleasant with your rat in immersion you are working to build "understanding" that a particular behavior is inappropriate and giving your rat better options to express it's feelings. 
To be fair, life for humans and rats has nasty consequences for doing something wrong. In the wild a rat that screws up gets eaten, if you close your eyes when you drive, you often come to a complete and sudden unscheduled stop. The world is full of unpleasant consequences to inappropriate behavior, and those of us who survive, learn from them, same goes for rats. It's fine to reward good behaviors with treats, skritches and hugs, but when your rat has clamped down on your ankle you don't reward it with a yogi snack and hope it learns that when it bites you, it should let go and take the treat. 

To some degree this might be a matter of perspective... I had a rat bite me in the hand. And by reflex action, it had a very positive flight across the room and it positively contacted the far wall, and it positively slid down to the floor then it positively came back to me and apologized for ripping out a big chunk of my hand and I had a meaningful and positive discussion with my rat as I bled profusely, applied iodine, made a pressure bandage and checked on the status of my tetanus vaccination. And that rat positively never bit me again. This wasn't a matter of operand conditioning and negative reinforcement, just simple communication. The only conditioned reflex to a negative stimulus was me tossing away something that was half way through my hand. The rat with whom I otherwise had a great relationship learned that there were limits to daddy's good nature and it would be happiest if it didn't bit me again.

It is unfortunate that the terms negative and positive reinforcement have survived operand conditioning. For the most part everyone now realizes that operand conditioning had it's limits and had it's day. The term reward is nice but punish has way too many definitions to be useful, so we still use and misuse the term negative reinforcement for lack of a better word. I suppose I include myself in that group, but to be clear I don't use it in the context of operand conditioning. Maybe we need a better term for immersion theory where you might have to do something unpleasant to your rat to make it UNDERSTAND that a behavior it's doing is wrong, inappropriate or has bad consequences. 

So feel free to consult your dictionaries and let me know if a better term strikes your fancy and we will add it to the jargon of immersion to avoid this misunderstanding in the future.

To be crystal clear... immersion is not about operand conditioning or traditional negative reinforcement, or punishment or force to make a rat do anything. It's about communicating and understanding. Having a human alpha and friend and living as part of a human household is not natural for rats, nor is living in an urban society natural for humans. But we all have to adapt to some degree, we need to learn and adhere to some basic rules. And again to be clear, when the state trooper pulls you over for doing 40 MPH over the speed limit while intoxicated, you don't get a sweet treat for doing better next time or a plaque for setting a new land speed record. And a rat that bites it's humans shouldn't be getting treats for it either... Both people and rats can learn responsible behaviors once they understand the consequences of their actions.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Famous Amos said:


> Ratclaws you obviously do not understand rats. And you have some new odd ideas. But that does not change the nature if the animal. I sorry. But that's just very weird thinking. You are entitled to it though.
> 
> You also need to remember while emersion is accepted be (some) on this group. The rest of the world does not. This is the only safe place to accept it.
> 
> ...


Woah, what a totally uncalled for response. I'm not even going to lower myself to this. I didn't call you ridiculous directly, I called the notion of saying that rats don't react emotionally ridiculous. I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive but I just like to give a strong argument, that's all. Of course you're going to be threatened by the idea of Immersion, as it's a new technique and not professionally adhered to. However, is that not how all new methods of training begin, from the ground up? Saying that I "do not understand rats" is unreasonable. I'd like to think that I actually do, seeing as I have three myself and they're all incredibly content and happy. I've not had any bites with my current three, and no signs of fear or anything like that. To keep rats that are happy, you have to be able to understand them I'm sure.

And please, explain to me how my "limited experience" shows. Yes, I may have only owned rats for a short amount of time compared to you, but I have owned them for almost a year now which I'm pretty certain amounts to more than a "month". No need for the personal attack. And believe me, I've had to deal with a lot of issues in a short time, and I've had to learn fast. This is including dealing with socialisation issues. I am not going to discredit your own personal beliefs, just attempt to reason against them with logic. If you can back up an opinion with proof, that's all you need. And the part about limited experience with people? I can't even begin to describe how much of a generalisation that even is. There is no possible way you can judge a person's experience with people based on a single forum post pertaining to a mere debate about socialisation issues and the emotional integrity of rats. That was incredibly rude of you if I do say so myself, and it seems that others agree.

My main gripe with your way of thinking was this part really, from your first post: "Rats don't need humans. Our holding them does nothing for their emotional needs." As I actually said in my main post, I do agree with some of what you're saying. But I see you didn't reflect upon that in your response. As I said before, yes they don't NEED humans, but there seems to be a lot of recent evidence supporting the fact that they can indeed benefit from us trying to understand them and by building a mutually beneficial relationship with them, that is all. And when we use the term "alpha", we are not literally saying we can replace an alpha rat in a pack. We're saying we can act as a pseudo-replacement for one, and we can try to communicate with the colony to address their needs, to establish a stable pack. Immersion Training and Socialisation is a method that is being tested and is producing positive and evidential results. To deny that isn't reasonable. Denying something is different than not agreeing.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Also, I'm sure you'd like some examples as to how I believe I can "understand" rats, seeing as you seem to be the judge, jury and executioner in that respect in this debate. Sorry if this seems rude, but as you were very blunt in your post I will retaliate in such a manner. Let me reiterate however that I understand that just because I agree with Immersion Training does not mean it's the only correct method. That would be very foolish of me indeed. You are entitled to your opinion as you rightly stated so I am entitled to mine too. I just think that seeing rats as possibly emotionally invested in humans can actually be (and has been) evidenced through Immersion Training. Well, here's a list:

I understand the differences between different forms of body language that they exhibit (for example, siding, huffing and puffing, bruxing, boggling, licking, standing and sniffing, puffing up of fur, lordosis exhibited by females in heat etc)
An example of communication between my rats and me: When their food bowl is empty, they put their toys on top of the bowl. I understand this is different to their standard stashing behaviour.
I understand that when my girl Rosie runs and hides, I need to change my tactic and instead of taking a hands on approach with her, I have to take the gentle approach by letting her come over to me and then pick her up gently, while gently stroking her and assuring her she's in safe hands and not the claws of a predator.
I understand that when my rats squeak at me when I'm holding them, it means they're protesting and I have to change my approach then too, by putting them down and only holding them for extensive periods of time when they like it.
I understand that when my rats get excited when I open their cage door, it means they're raring to get outside into my room and run around, fulfilling their natural desire to explore and release all that energy.
I understand that when I bring a new rat into my room, I am essentially bringing a new member into the pack which may be threatening to my existing females. I know that this means that they are assessing the new rat immediately as it enters the space, by analysing it just by smelling it. I also understand that as I attempt introductions, they will learn more about this new rat just by having the additional processes opened up to them to assess it, such as seeing them, sizing up to them and sniffing their urine, which carries a wide variety of markers.

I could include more but there's no need really. I also get that maybe this post will come off as aggressive, however this doesn't concern me as I just wanted to prove that I do in fact understand rats, especially my own pack. I'm so stumped as to why people see Immersion as some threatening method of training and socialisation... I've even seen people compare it to torture, which is ridiculous indeed (not you personally, other users).


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I agree that the post directed at Ratclaws was not needed or saying anything about Ratclaws social life with people was needed none of are trying to be rude to you but we're trying to in a strong manner to get our point through to you about what you think about your rats. I still think immersion is not a negative thing to do and Famous Amos I think for you to call out one person on what they have said and to bully them with something that had nothing to do with the topic that is being talked about to be very rude and mean Ratclaws was agreeing with what everyone else was sayying.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

There's also one part I forgot to address, this part: "_And you have some new odd ideas. But that does not change the nature if the animal. I sorry. But that's just very weird thinking. You are entitled to it though."

_I don't understand how you can say to me that what I evidenced with my own two eyes, is just my way of "thinking". I saw for myself, in person, one of my old rats change it's approach towards humans based upon Immersion Training. Hazel was a skittish, nervous girl right from the start, who ended up biting and used to squeak and curl up her back whenever you picked her up from above or behind. Now, you can pick her up with ease and she doesn't make a fuss. She even enjoys a good stroke now, which before she would detest and would arch ready to bite. I saw this transformation occur myself, and so did my girlfriend. This was more than a way of thinking, it was a reality. Or should I say, it IS a reality. It happened. She's different. It's a fact. I agree that rats do have certain personalities/temperaments from birth, and those are their natural mindsets, but if anything Hazel is proof that this can be changed somewhat, to some degree. Heck, not only has Hazel proved it but so have many people's rats on this forum. And how you may ask? Through Immersion Training, and through understanding a rat's emotional needs and by interacting with them in such a way that both rat and human are satisfied. I like to think of rat - human communication as similar to dog - human communication, but in miniature form.

I also forgot to add that if the "Alpha method" of training dogs doesn't work and is no longer current, then explain to me why Cesar Millan is currently rolling in money and consistently proving time and time again that pack mentality can be utilised by humans and their dogs. I'm sure you've heard of the show, where he fixes aggressive and misbehaving dogs by asserting pack status and having them become submissive, making them respect their owners by building a bridge between the two species' way of communicating. I just see Immersion Training as a rat version of his work.

I'm not saying you have to agree with any of this, or the method or anything. But at least be respectful and approach the discussion in a reasonable manner without firing personal insults. I am sorry for calling you hypocritical but I did not do so without reason; I did it because I saw you flipping between opinions and that is what the word means.


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## Mball77 (Jul 3, 2013)

ratclaws said:


> I also forgot to add that if the "Alpha method" of training dogs doesn't work and is no longer current, then explain to me why Cesar Millan is currently rolling in money and consistently proving time and time again that pack mentality can be utilised by humans and their dogs. I'm sure you've heard of the show, where he fixes aggressive and misbehaving dogs by asserting pack status and having them become submissive, making them respect their owners by building a bridge between the two species' way of communicating. I just see Immersion Training as a rat version of his work.
> .


When I first read Immersion felt the same way. I have used Cesar's transfer of energy philosophy on people and felt stupid that I didn't try this on my rats until I read immersion. It just made sense to me. I don't care if I sound like a tree hugging hippy but I totally swear by connection/communication of energy between living beings. There is communication, though not verbal you do communicate with your rats or any living creature if you are aware of it or not. That being said, many have felt attacked when it was stated that we are not (nor could be) the rats alpha when many of us have indeed become alpha. If having an established alpha rat in your pack works for some people (and I have heard of it working elsewhere) then let it be, but to say we cannot be the alpha feels like a direct attack. 

Loki was alpha and it _sorta_ worked for the first month. Nimbus challenged him and things got bad and quickly. I thought it was bad enough where I was going to have to separate them forever or get them both neutered. That's when I joined this forum and actually I think it was Ratclaws that told me to check out immersion. I'm sorry but I have to support that humans should be the rat alpha from my own experience and from what I can tell I'm not alone. I don't care if its not scientifically proven. I was told a neuter at their age "could" work. I didn't want to risk surgery for something that "could work" They are both intact and there is peace. I am not a vetren rat owner and there are many new owners here that have developed a strong healthy bond in the short time we have had because of these "odd new ideas". I do not know where my pack would be without me taking control. That being said I will always go for positive reinforcement before anything else but there was no positive re-enforcement to give when Loki was ripping out Nimbus' fur daily. 

I think some people might be confusing the old school method of alpha training which is the only reason torture would come up. This is not what is going on here on this forum. This is not the old school and outdated version of alpha training. Cesar beats into the brains of the viewers, that submission does not equate breaking your dog/rat's will. You are not beating the dog/rat, you are not being aggressive to the dog/rat. Both immersion and Cesar are clear in this. Its learning to communicate with your dog/rat on their level and you are doing this in a calm assertive manner. You will see in your dogs and rats that when you take control of alpha there is a burden taken off their shoulders and your not ripping them to shreds like what would happen in the wild when the transfer of power happens. If there is no alpha, no one leading the pack the animal feels they need to take control of a situation for survival and survival of the pack. Everything becomes a threat and the alpha is responsible for the well being of every one, like a boss or the head of a household in our own human packs. The animal is reassured that there is someone to take that responsibility which is indeed "the nature of the animal".


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## Famous Amos (May 23, 2013)

There ate so many things wrong with what's been said throughout... For one rats squeaking at you doesn't mean they are upset. For one females are vocal. And vocalize all the time including when they are happy.

Also just because u am being ganged up on and bullied does not make me the bully. That's the opposite of the meaning of the word.

Also negative enforcement is the proper term. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Famous Amos said:


> There ate so many things wrong with what's been said throughout... For one rats squeaking at you doesn't mean they are upset. For one females are vocal. And vocalize all the time including when they are happy.
> 
> Also just because u am being ganged up on and bullied does not make me the bully. That's the opposite of the meaning of the word.
> 
> ...


There is only so many things wrong to you about what we are saying because you don't agree with it. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's wrong. What your saying isn't wrong to you and what we are saying isn't wrong to us. You are not being open to what we are saying and assume everyone is wrong because you have not tried immersion or tried to be your rats alpha. So until you try it you can not say what we are saying is wrong. I agree that some people may take immersion the wrong way and be bad to their rats but that is not what immersion is once you understand it. I think you should read the immersion guide and then tell us what makes immersion so wrong when it is not hurting the rats or abusing them. Also you are not treating them negatively unless you have to so they learn what they are doing is wrong by taping them on the nose or spraying them with water. 

Also it is not anyone's fault that we are all telling you how we feel about what you said no one here said anything to be rude, Ratclaws may have but that was after you had said something that had nothing to do with how he is on the forum you said it towards his life outside of it which you know nothing about. No one is bullying you. We just want you to see what we mean and that immersion is not bad for the rats and that we can be alpha. Also give immersion a chance before saying it is bad.

I am sorry if you feel we are ganging up on you or bullying you that is no ones intentions all of us here try to be nice and understanding about stuff her. But it just so happens there's lots of people that agree with us and not you so it seems to you we are ganging up on you which really we aren't. So sorry if you feel that way.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all... we are all here because we love our rats. We share a common interest and started this thread as friends and would be best off leaving it the same way...

Famous Amos, I think you might consider that people aren't ganging up on you, rather we might actually enjoy your company and are just trying to help you to understand something we know to be true and all feel is important.

If you ever want to consider immersion and/or immersion theory for yourself and your rats, please feel free to join the rest of us at your leisure. If you don't understand, feel free to ask. Just please don't suggest that immersion is something it isn't before you experience it for yourself. That will get people upset. 

Before anyone else gets upset with Famous Amos, lets remember he didn't ask for any help so lets not get frustrated if he doesn't accept any. Before we were right, we were wrong too.


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## franjf (Dec 13, 2012)

Famous Amos said:


> There ate so many things wrong with what's been said throughout... For one rats squeaking at you doesn't mean they are upset. For one females are vocal. And vocalize all the time including when they are happy.
> 
> Also just because u am being ganged up on and bullied does not make me the bully. That's the opposite of the meaning of the word.
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness, you just don't understand me at all clearly... I was stating that with MY rats, I understand that if I hold them for too long it's a sign of mild protest and that they want to be put down. Just because I didn't describe vocalisations they make when they're happy doesn't mean I don't understand that they make those too...


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Oops, didn't realise my girlfriend had logged into her account, haha. ^ That was me replying.


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## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

Ratclaws, I am unable to read your response that was written with your girlfriend's account without reading it in a girl voice.
And it amuses me greatly...

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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Famous Amos said:


> There ate so many things wrong with what's been said throughout... For one rats squeaking at you doesn't mean they are upset. For one females are vocal. And vocalize all the time including when they are happy.
> 
> Also just because u am being ganged up on and bullied does not make me the bully. That's the opposite of the meaning of the word.
> 
> ...


Also, saying "there ARE so many things wrong with what's been said throughout" just epitomises the exact kind of reasoning we're trying to avoid here. As I have stated MANY times, we agree with some of what you are saying - we're being open to your thoughts but you're not being open at all to ours. As such, I don't really think the discussion should be continued any further as it seems you're not even going to at least have a listen to our ideas and then reasonably and logically, decline them. Just flat outright saying "no" doesn't make for a good opposing argument. Also attempting to belittle what I know about MY own rats personally (which you cannot possibly know anything about as you have never seen/met them, nor are you used to their personalities or behaviours) is just not on. Also, it's definitely "Negative Reinforcement".



You are not being bullied. You have opened up a debate (by your own doing) about Immersion and the theory behind it. You have tried to state your case against it and we are defending it. It's just a debate, they happen on forums all the time. Opposing viewpoints always clash. Just because there's more support here on this forum for Immersion and people are backing it up with evidence does NOT make it bullying. Please don't try and play the victim here. You don't need to agree with us, and we're not saying our opinion is absolute. However, it does get irritating when people won't respond to a debate with any kind of supporting evidence and just flat out deny something that others believe in. Furthermore, I am sorry for getting rude with you before - sometimes when I argue and I'm passionate about the subject, my arguments can come out as aggressive. However, I think your follow up was much worse and the personal insults were not needed at all. If I didn't understand people, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be in a long term relationship, wouldn't have close friends who've been by me for the past 8 years of my life and I wouldn't have succeeded at graduating from university.

If I didn't know anything about rats, I wouldn't post on here often as I wouldn't like to give people bad advice, especially if it's to do with the health and behaviour of rats. I've learned a lot from being on this forum and through my own reading, and I take pleasure in responding to people's threads for advice and I must say I haven't had a single complaint yet from any forum user who I've given advice to about rats, whether it be trivial to do with bedding or food etc to other things including temperament and behaviour. I'd say that's a pretty good sign that I understand.

Edit: Haha Voltage, neither can I now. My girlfriend also laughed at the fact


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Ratclaws, it's not that anyone has made a case against immersion, it's simply that someone has misrepresented it, which I'd like to think is because they don't understand. I doubt Famous Amos is being intentionally obtuse. Immersion is a difficult concept to grasp.

The new improved training methods Amos is referring to is basically the new kinder, gentler, somewhat less virulent strain of operand conditioning. Basically you skip the electro-shocks and focus on rewards in order to be more politically correct. It should have some limited appeal as operand conditioning always had some relatively fast successes in affecting simple behaviors. A friend of mine actually worked on an experiment that focused on curing gay people with clockwork orange type operand conditioning. Well, we all know how that worked out in the long run. The theory behind this type of conditioned response training basically assumes that the subject is the sum of a lifetime of conditioned responses to simple and complex stimulus. Ring a bell and the dog salivates, paste a shiny star on a test paper and the child answers more test questions correctly. Cognition, personality and self actualized behaviors are considered to be subjective manifestations of the experimenter's own conditioned reflexes and are irrelevant and disregarded for the sake of "objectivity". 

This makes the kinder and gentler clockwork orange a hypocritical anomaly. Basically if there's no one really inside your lab rat to be kind to, there's also no one in there to hurt so why would one type of behavioral reinforcement be preferable to another? In fact, when it came to simple behaviors, electric shocks did work just as well, if not better at modifying behaviors in rats long term over rewards. The other facts that lab rats had to be kept isolated in most cases so they didn't tear each other to pieces and most experimenters wore very thick gloves to avoid getting bit never became a part of the permanent research documentation. So, sure you got a rat to push a lever, but it also became psychotic, which wasn't relevant to the experiment. 

There's no surprise that Pavlov and B. F. Skinner are still lurking in the shadows. A lot of what they did had remarkable success early on and flipped the world of psychology on it's head. People tend to forget that psycho-pharmacology was the next logical step and that's what eventually killed operand conditioning. As there was no one really inside the subject there was no rational reason not to just modify the behavior through direct chemical intervention. A few milligrams of Thorazine or Riddelin fixes what 20 years of psycho therapy or 10 weeks of behavioral therapy did before.

To a Skinnarian rat runner the idea of immersion would sound ridiculous as neither the rat nor the human actually exists other than as two sets of interacting complex behaviors. Personally that's one Kool-Aid cocktail I'd rather avoid, either in it's original incarnation or it's sanitized for you protection reanimation.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> Ratclaws, it's not that anyone has made a case against immersion, it's simply that someone has misrepresented it, which I'd like to think is because they don't understand. I doubt Famous Amos is being intentionally obtuse. Immersion is a difficult concept to grasp.
> 
> The new improved training methods Amos is referring to is basically the new kinder, gentler, somewhat less virulent strain of operand conditioning. Basically you skip the electro-shocks and focus on rewards in order to be more politically correct. It should have some limited appeal as operand conditioning always had some relatively fast successes in affecting simple behaviors. A friend of mine actually worked on an experiment that focused on curing gay people with clockwork orange type operand conditioning. Well, we all know how that worked out in the long run. The theory behind this type of conditioned response training basically assumes that the subject is the sum of a lifetime of conditioned responses to simple and complex stimulus. Ring a bell and the dog salivates, paste a shiny star on a test paper and the child answers more test questions correctly. Cognition, personality and self actualized behaviors are considered to be subjective manifestations of the experimenter's own conditioned reflexes and are irrelevant and disregarded for the sake of "objectivity".
> 
> ...


I see what you mean, I mean really when you get down to the basics of this debate it's just two opposing theories that are clashing, which are almost opposites. We use Immersion as a way of thinking about rats in a different manner to Operand conditioning, and it's just a different perspective. I can see why if someone didn't get Immersion they would find it strange and bizarre. I'd just like to think that people would give it more of a chance really rather than just flat out denying it without any kind of thought, considering the premise behind it is to build a strong and healthy relationship with your rat. I'd hate to think of any of the pets I own/ed as just reacting to stimuli. Even if basically this IS the case scientifically and genetically, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a more personal and emotional approach as it seems to work for most people that have tried it anyway. I also don't understand how one could possibly actually prefer an approach which is completely objective and categorises all rats under the same branch of the tree, so to speak. But I guess because I understand Immersion, I can't see how people find it hard to grasp and it just gelled with me quickly and my way of thinking. Flat out denial of something without any kind of logical argument to backup why you find it wrong or bad just makes no sense to me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My own background made it very difficult to for me to convert to a modern way of looking at rats too. Although I had long ago rejected the idea that I was merely a response to a lifetime of complex stimulus, somehow all of the work done on rats way back when I was in college was subliminally stuck in my head. Not being of a cruel sort I suppose I also fell back on the reward side of operand conditioning as my rat model.

Then things went terribly wrong for the way I was thinking... Fuzzy Rat came into the picture. We got her as a three week old rat so she was basically virgin snow. And right from the start she refused to fit the model. She insisted on human contact and even as a pup she had a very strong drive to explore and experience new things. And she would continuously adapt her behaviors to try and reach out to me to get HER point of view across. It started to become apparent that she was making stuff up as she went along. She wasn't simply reacting to stimulus she was initiating creative behavior and working out some form of communication strategy. It was nearly incomprehensible to me, given my formal training in the field. 

Don't confuse me with someone who wanted to change my life long perspective... I resisted and began to "objectively" test my new reality. When I tried to give her treats to get her to come out of her hidden nests at bed time, it worked.... but she also learned to identify my bedtime behaviors so she could hide before bedtime to get the bedtime treat. I switched up the time and my behaviors and she cleverly and quickly adapted. She learned simple and complex commands and rather than follow them she situationally adapted her behavior depending on where she was, who she was with, what time it was and what seemed relevant to her own objectives in the situation. There was no doubt about it, there was someone home inside that tiny animal. Then one day I realized she would tap the back of my neck when I walked past a door she wanted me to open and go through, I tested it over and over and it was the same message with the same meaning every time. There was no way anyone taught her this behavior, she had come up with it entirely on her own. And finally one day when she was pointing with her nose in the direction she wanted to go and tapping her feet on my hand and I was doing it, she started giving me kissies.... Fuzzy Rat was rewarding me for my correct response. My rat was using positive reinforcement on me! Basically she had learned how to use operand conditioning to modify my behavior. And ratclaws you had better believe I tested that to see if that was a fluke, but no it wasn't. She had actually become a master of manipulating human behavior. At a party, I watched her very methodically make friends with all of the people drinking at the table and only once everyone was comfortable with her and was engaged with her did she begin her strategy of following the almost empty shot glass of tequila around the table to soak up the last drop after someone took a shot, and then she somehow managed to convince people to give her a beer chaser afterwards. Practically within a matter of minutes she had wrapped a room full of strangers around her finger. She got people to put her on the ground, pick her up support her drinking habit, give her snacks, play with her and generally became the center of attention which she always loved. Few humans I know have that kind of charisma and social skills. The clever little rat had developed an arsenal of cute but strategic behaviors to get humans to do what she wanted. I even warned my guests that they were being manipulated and they didn't seem to care. Fuzzy Rat had her own agenda, she learned on the fly, she adapted quickly and she reached out to anyone that would listen and she didn't give up until she got through. I can add another two years worth of examples. But I think I've made my point.

In any event, even an old rat runner like myself couldn't deny that Fuzzy Rat was more than the sum of her experiences. She was creating new behaviors and understanding the behaviors of others and better yet modifying the behaviors of others to suit her needs. I did some research into the more recent theories of metacognition and erased my drawing board so I could start from a blank slate.... 

Once I started out with a new model of an intelligent learning animal, that had emotions and could self actualize to create new behaviors based on an understanding of it's environment and other beings in it and I realized that she was communicating for effect as well as understanding that others were communicating to her, that I came to understand that rats brains function very much like ours. Humans are not just the sum of their experiences, and neither are rats. This, by the way is why I give Fuzzy Rat so much credit for immersion. I mean she was just a rat, but as a true shoulder rat with thousands of travel miles under her belt and hundreds of human contacts in all kinds of situations, she had a broader understanding of the world and humans than most indoor rats have. And she was incredibly stubborn and persistent and wouldn't give up until she got through. In some ways she was like every other rat, in other's she was truly special.

Given a new model to work from, based on working with Fuzzy RAt both indoors and on the road, the pieces started to fit together very nicely. If rats were so much like us and we could communicate with them and bond with them emotionally we should be able to initiate communication on a much higher level, so all I had to do was try and relate a rats behavior to how a human might understand something... Packs became social structures or extended families. An alpha became more of a parent. Pack order became more like high school popularity status. Alpha grooming was a reward for a subordinate being good not a dominance behavior and socialization became more like adopting a baby or going on a date... Immersion theory was born and after watching wild rats try to immerse my daughter the practice began to evolve in my mind.

Everything that didn't work in trust training and forced socialization became starkly clear and when someone posted the problems they were having with their rats, I could see the answer clear as day. By having a new model for rat cognition, most rat behaviors made more sense and by establishing bidirectional communication with a rat almost everything became possible. All in all immersion theory and practice were born.

It would be pretty easy to dismiss immersion theory as a figment of my own imagination, but I tested it and it works, lots of other people have tried it with similar results. Actual hostile and biting rats have been socialized and bonded within hours. And just about everyone that has opened a dialogue with their rats reports a similar bond being formed that they never had with their rats before and people that are the alphas to their packs are reporting greater harmony in their cages... And once both humans and rats get it, it's hard to determine where the human and the rat inter-species boundary is.

Once people get immersion theory, operand conditioning really does look absurdly primitive. It's like watching a monkey try to use an I-pad. On the other hand for someone stuck on operand conditioning I'm pretty sure we look delusional. So why is immersion right and operand conditioning wrong... aside from the fact that most of the psychological community has rejected it, operand conditioning just doesn't work nearly as well. Any theory that needs to disregard 90% of an animal's or a human's behavior as experimental static or white noise can't be even close to right or very useful. It turns out that no matter how much current you used or where you shocked someone or how many sexy treats you offered, very few gay people ever became straight. When it came to complex emotional and bonding issues operand conditioning simply never worked. You might be able to teach a dog where to poop, but you will never get it to love or respect you. On the other hand once you immerse your rat you have a relationship to build on.

Immersion did not develop in a vacuum, giving your rats rewards and some discipline still works if it's in the framework of communicating with an intelligent small being. If you can't take the leap of faith, you won't reach the next level in understanding your rats or building the kind of relationship some of us have with our rats.


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