# Weird Tail Movement



## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

What does it mean when my rat goes up to one of the others, gets as low to the ground as possible and swishes it's tail in a movement like a snake would do? Sherman did this, as he worked his way under Peabody's head, one day when I had them out. Like it kinda looks like a snake slithering sort of action. They've even done it once or twice when I was reaching my hand to them to pet them. ???


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Intense emotions cause this. Usually a scared or extremely tense rat will "wag" their tail as a warning : I'm so on edge right now you best back off.

Rarely, you've silly rats who do it in any intense emotion including happiness. 


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

They aren't doing it right now...Peabody barely did it yesterday in the beginning our our immersion session when he was attempting to be pissy with me...but he changed his tune after a few minutes. This morning he's hanging out with me on the couch sharing my breakfast and being very sweet. He's not even bracing himself anymore when I go to pet him, very relaxed today. After the biting incident Sunday evening if he even thinks of putting his teeth on me in the slightest he gets a VERY stern "NO!" and he quickly stops what he's doing. I think at this point he's trying to clean me because it's right after he'll lick me, but I'm not taking any chances. 

Every time they did it before they didn't seem to have a "I'm gonna lunge at you" sort of posture, everything was as low to the ground as they could get like they wanted to melt into the floor - face and all. Sherman did it when it looks like he was trying to submit to Peabody for grooming.

But that's just what it seemed like to me. IDK. I wouldn't have called it a "wag", it seemed more like a fluid movement.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our big girl Max will flick her tail when she's really upset and Our new rat Cloud does it when she approaches my big girl who is still likely to attack her, so it is a nervous or emotional expression. Hunkering down is a protective or preparatory posture. Rats don't want to get flipped over and have their weak underbellies exposed if things turn ugly.

I don't read much into tail movements, they are expressions of the moment and not an indicator of a general mindset. Kind of like how you get upset when you discover quick check is charging you $1.00 for two cookies instead of 3 now. You're annoyed, but not likely to kill anyone over it or until they are ready to submit.

I'm glad to hear you are making progress. I distinctly recall getting flamed when I first introduced the "rat bop" or "rat swat" (with love in your heart) and shout "NO!" approach. But rats can understand exactly what it means... To be entirely fair, my daughter who was 5 at the time came up with it.... It was her natural reaction and I was amazed how fast her rat would understand my daughter and adjust her behavior. There's nothing wrong with letting your rats know when they upset or disappoint you. Rats have emotions too and they can better understand yours when you are honest with them. Naturally we are huge compared to rats and appropriate restraint is required not to actually hurt your rat... it's communication, not punishment. But a little discipline goes a long way towards a happy household.

Submissive eeping or positive reinforcement only caused untold numbers of rats to be needlessly neutered. Some got their first clue that they were doing something wrong when they woke up with something missing.

Fixing alpha confusion is so much easier before it turns into outright alpha aggression and hormones start to build up to reinforce the bad behavior. It sounds like you caught your problem in time, stay on top of the situation and it will hopefully not come back.

Best luck.


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## LeStan82 (Dec 31, 2013)

My boys do it when they play together. They will hunch down, wag and then chase each other. They run back and forth. Never in a fighting or mean way. They get excited and hyper when out for free range time.. Kind of like dogs do.but all rats are different, in another rat they may do it for a different reason.My boys get along great. But they are also 5 almost 6 months and are hitting puberty stage. So I will be keeping a close eye out for big squabbles, but so far so good....sigh....hope I didnt just jinx myself...lol
But I also had my first boy that passed away that wagged his tail and hunched with aggression when he hit puberty as was an alpha, which I nipped that in the bud.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

Yep, usually agitation and/or testing you/other rat. Definitely do not let them get away with it if it directed towards you because it can escalate to nipping. I always have males do it when they are hitting puberty. Although you need to look at the other body movements to determine the severity of his irritation. My 7 month old was known for his rattlesnake tail around other males, but he would also stretch his whole body out long and low, sneak up the other rats, and give them a chomp- he would do this over and over unless he was sleeping. He was a trouble-maker. If it sounds like that, step in before he has a chance to get too worked up and cause a scuffle. Correct how you see fit- with a bop or yell or distraction. My boy has worked out his place now and it has gone away. In fact, my little 4 month old did it just the other day while having a stand off with one of the big guys. It is a sign to me that the cycle is beginning again. I have yet to see it a situation where the rat appeared super happy, but anything is possible. Stay on top of the naughty (b)rats and everything will sort itself out ! How old are your boys?


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank, y'all, for the input! Sherman & Peabody are just over a year and a half. Don't know for sure because the person I got them from didn't know 100%. But they are the main ones who feel like they want to be the "big guys" around here....Sherman not as much as Peabody, but he does like to instigate with Peabody a lot of the time, almost like he's challenging Peabody's authority. Sherman has never done anything remotely aggressive or alpha towards me though.

They are separated from the three younger guys still (all around a year old), after the bad intro experience we had, although Sherman really wants to be friends and snuggles with the others. I don't want to leave Peabody by himself, so I don't feel it's right to go ahead and let Sherman be with them. Once I get Peabody to REALLY know I'm the alpha rat around here then I will try intros again. I don't want him taking any more chunks out of anyone (two of the little guys left the intro bleeding).

Anyway.....I will keep a close watch on the tail and body language. Peabody spent a good 2-3 hours out with me this morning until I could just tell he was seriously asking to go to his fav hammock. He was so good while out this am, I'm really encouraged. He does complain sometimes when I pick him up still though not always, but instead of hissing or bucking up at me it's more of a whiney sound, I wouldn't even call it a squeak - LOL! So I definitely think we're getting somewhere. I just wanted to ask about the tail thing, since it happened before a couple of times, so I'd know if they do it again. So thanks - this helped a lot!


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

Oh! And I forgot to add that Peabody will be coming back out to spend one-on-one time again this afternoon for a few hours.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

So happy that he is bonding well with you! Just out of curiosity, what happened in the intros? Was he showing the same upset behavior or did he just go after the new boys? Unfortunately, introducing adult males can be the most difficult.


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

He just lit into all the new guys! The only way we could set anything up was with a ton of usps boxes. We have a very large square coffee table so we made the box circle big enough to almost go to the edge of that. I stood on one side and Anthony stood on the other so we could break anything up. First we put the 3 little guys in there and after a few added Sherman. He was thrilled to meet them and kept wanting to snuggle with each one of them. They were interested in him, but a little more like "hey, who the heck are you?" kind of reaction. Then after a while we put Peabody in there. For a few seconds we though it was going to be alright, but then all **** broke loose. He just went after them viciously! Barnaby, the littlest of them all, took off running up my arm and was going to scale over me for his half of the cage. He wasn't about to let himself get bit. But unfortunately, Peabody hurt sweet Flynn and Walt. Though we didn't realize it at first. As quick as I could put Barnaby up I scooped Peabody out and put him away. All the others were huddled in the igloo frozen with Sherman still trying to snuggle up to them.

I think Peabody just needs to REALLY know I'm the alpha so I can show him that I have accepted these 3 new guys into our family.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

I am sorry to hear it did not work out right away. Sherman sounds like a little sweetheart. Yeah, getting Peabody to really respect you and having a strong bond would help a lot. Have you attempt any little tricks to get him to accept them more? Did you intro in a completely neutral area, one that Peabody has never been/played on before? Neutralizing scent with a dab of vanilla on the back is one way. I have never had to use it, but I know people have had success with bathing the rats together in the tub. Since baths are not always a favorite, the stressful situation can usually help in having them put aside their differences to escape and the scent is neutralized if you use the same soap for all. I like hand-feeding the rats together using favorite treats, they usually tolerate the others because they are distracted and tolerating is great. It may take many repeated meetings, but I would not take too long of a break. Make it a routine thing, so he does not think he was successful in chasing away the other "evil" rats. Males can be territorial, so tricking him a bit may be necessary.

I do want to add with the "routine" thing, you do not want to stress them out if it is not going well! Once you start to see progress then keep it up, but do not force them to be together everyday if it is causing them to get extremely upset!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Another trick is being literally hands on; by holding the new rat you can communicate "this is my friend" (and as parent, be respected) and you can also have your hands ready as a barrier. Then take to followin. The rats around with your hands and interacting copiously. 

Don't involve any furniture or toys in the next intro, it should just be humans and rats. An igloo is a nice place to cuddle but a rat can accidentally corner itself in it causing things to escalate. You also don't want the rats to go anywhere you can't immediately touch them at. 


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

They do still interact every day. In fact they all insist on being able to see each other through the closed ramp between the DCN levels. Last cage clean I tried hiding the tray opening in the top on the back side under the litter box and that is the only time the little guys have ever chewed on the liners. They were trying to get to the opening. Sherman & Peabody will get up on their tippy toes to sniff the little guys and the little guys stand on the closed ramp to sniff back. A couple of times it seemed like Peabody was trying to nip toes, but I really think he was just sniffing. Plus with the tight bar spacing he really can't nip anybody.

But yes, the playpen we made was new to them all at the time. We were planning on putting some extra yummy dressed up oatmeal in there with them to all try eating together but it all happened so fast that all I could do was deal with Barnaby running all over me then get Peabody the heck outta there. I haven't tried bathing them together yet. I've read very different opinions on the effectiveness of the vanilla thing, so honestly I hadn't thought to try that. Since I've just been trying to work on knocking down Peabody's alpha status dreams before trying anymore. He didn't take me seriously in that intro when I was shoving him off everyone with my gloved hand. I fully expected him to be a bit pushy so I thought I was prepared to let him know they are accepted by my intervening hand. He clearly had other plans at the time.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

Well sounds like you have your bases covered! I agree with having an open play area. Aside from a rat getting cornered, you do not want any of the boys claiming a toy/hiding place and causing fights over that. Do you separate immediately when they fight? If Peabody is the only aggressor, you may try keeping a spray bottle of water on hand and spraying him when he goes for a rat aggressively to distract or correct him harshly with your hands and voice (if he would not redirect the attack) but not removing him right away unless he is a crazed ball of intent to kill. Where on the body does it look like he is targeting to bite?


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## TheHippyRatter (Apr 25, 2014)

He got walt on top of his back near his shoulder as well as lower on his side. He only got Flynn on his back. When it happened there was no distracting Peabody, he was out for blood and fast as lightening for the old slow fella he usually acts like. We both had our hands in there trying to block it and knock Peabody far away, but he wouldn't let up so I had no choice but to remove him. And like I said it was all so fast. That was the one time and I removed him as soon as I could scoop him up.

The play area is much bigger now, but I haven't gotten Peabody out with the three little ones again yet. I'm just now starting to feel like the last couple of days he's starting backing down and realize I'm stepping into the alpha role. He's actually a sweetie, but he's been a bit stubborn too. I actually feel like him biting me Sunday night was him telling me he wasn't happy that I was so busy over the weekend, not that it's an excuse or acceptable in any way. But if he thought of himself as the alpha then I guess it makes sense.

I'll keep a spray bottle, a towel and my gloved hand VERY close when I do start another intro though. I had read that a group intro would keep the "alpha" rat busy and from focusing too much on one victim, but Peabody had no trouble taking control of ALL three of his victims. Luckily he wasn't harm Barnaby the tiny-lightening-fast Hairless too.


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