# Rats and Snakes?



## Eleanor Lamb (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok, so I know they breed rats as feeders for reptiles and rats as pets.

Does anyone have both pet snakes and pet Rats?
Is this a common thing? Rats gotta eat and snake have to as well.


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## Csszal (Aug 26, 2012)

My brother's girlfriend keeps both rats and snake. She works for a snake breeder and acquired to feeder rats that the snakes wouldn't eat and just uniqueness. One ended up pregnant and since she couldn't find homes for the males from the litter, she fed them to her snakes. Honestly I couldn't do it. If I had snakes they would only eat frozen.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I know a lot of people who have snakes and Rats, both as pets. I don't have them personally, as my parents hate snakes. I wouldn't mind having a Californian king snake, my favorite snake are Retics (Reticulated python) but unless they are dwarfs which get to about 9 ft max they can get pretty big, but they are Very curious snakes. in almost every single video of one they will always be moving around looking around. Not trying to hunt or attack just wanting to check stuff out. Most snakes just sit there, actually Ball pythons and Calibara burrowing pythons (they are rare in captivity since they are hard to breed) just curl up into a ball (Hints the name ball python) most of the time. Which is pretty neat to be honest, but there are some snake species (Always the bigger ones) that are much more interested in their environment. 

I mean, to me it makes sense. I've always had a strong belief that to respect an animal you need to respect it's prey (so if you have snakes, respect rats) or it's predator(s) (So for rats, that is snakes and birds of prey). Not to be rude to anyone but people who have rats but can not respect snakes and people who have snakes but can not respect rats I think are very horrible people. 

Just to make something clear being scared of snakes is not the same as having no respect for them, same goes for people being scared of rats. If your scared of snakes I can understand that.


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## Eleanor Lamb (Oct 22, 2012)

I thought maybe I was the only one, I respect and love all animals great or small.
I own 3 snakes and 4 rats as well as one dog. And each get the best care I can offer. Each of my snakes get handled everyday and kept far way from my rats (Rats are down stairs snake are up stairs). My rats are very spoiled, squishy butts, they roam the house and play with the dog (superived of course) and love to climb all over their CN double unit. Soo much space for just little 4 rats.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Just to add a little item that might interst a few snake people... In nature rats are not the typical pray for most snakes. Our rats pretty much colonized the earth with the spread of western civilization, mostly within the last few hundred years. Snakes however have been around for a long time eating whatever prey existed locally to them. 

Rats have also been known to eat snakes in the wild along with just about everything else on the planet. And given a large pack of wild rats vs most snakes in and outdoor setting, I might just put my money on the rats.

Rats and often mice are substitue foods for most snakes. The solomon island boa would normally eat solomon island skinks... Solomon Island skinks cost more than solomon island boas... 

Although in nature just about everything gets eaten by something, rats aren't really typical prey animals, and very likely thats why they have such a short life span so as to be self limiting in numbers. 

In captivity frozen mice or rats are a lot cheaper that $100.00 a pop solomon island skinks, and it's pretty safe to say if a snake can learn to eat them, they wind up as food animals, not to be confused with prey animals.


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## Eleanor Lamb (Oct 22, 2012)

I am very well aware that for most exotic species of snakes rats and mice are not part a natural diet however, not everyone has access to other food items such as birds, lizards, etc... 
My pet’s only get frozen-thawed it is easier, convenient, cheaper, and much safer that live. Most people think that if a snake took on a rat that the snake would win every time, this is very incorrect, and any rat or mouse has the full potential win/eat any snake!
Not to mention putting a live animal inside a predators’ cage with no way to escape is unfair and not natural, in my opinion


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I love all animals. I've got a bearded dragon, but no snakes. I personally wouldn't like to have a snake that had to eat rats because for me rats are such a part of the family, it'd be like having to feed a dog to a crocodile! But I acknowledge that that's a personal thing. I understand snakes have to eat just like any other animal. 

One thing I can't ever agree with is feeding live rats. It's dangerous for the snake, terrifying until the last breath for the rat, and no matter what people insist, it's not natural when it's taking place in a confined tank where neither animal can escape if things get too much. I know some people argue that their snake "won't eat" thawed rats, but that doesn't work for me as an excuse either. I've had pets go on hunger strike when they think they might get something better. If you hold out, eventually they're going to eat it. They won't let themselves starve.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

Several months ago, I read an article about how there is nothing natural or safe about eating live. The fact that snakes are in a small enclosure when being fed live plays an impact on it. I wish I could find the article. It basically outlined all o the downsides to feeding live that most people don't think of. I think it is irresponsible to refuse to try frozen/thawed and to have the attitude that snakes eating live rodents is "natural".


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

A friend worked for a larger snake importer and wholesaler. He told me they fed frozen there. 

There are however a few species of snakes that won't eat frozen or even rodents of any kind. And I've seen them actually starve to death in pet shops. And I know of one arborial snake that was being maintained in a huge cage where it hangs out in the branches of a fake tree and snatches finches as they fly by. You can bet at the cost of finches, rodents both alive and frozen were tried.

But my point wasn't actually towards what you feed a snake, it was that rats aren't really typical prey animals in nature. It goes towards understanding the psychology of the rat. Too many people think of their rats as prey animals and miss the bigger picture that they are actually evolved to be pretty competent little masters of their universe, more like humans than rabbits.


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

> Several months ago, I read an article about how there is nothing natural or safe about eating live. The fact that snakes are in a small enclosure when being fed live plays an impact on it. I wish I could find the article. It basically outlined all o the downsides to feeding live that most people don't think of.


I would love to read that, if you do find it please post a link! I'm pretty firmly of the belief that live feeding rodents to captive reptiles is purely an indulgence on the owner's part 99% percent of the time and the reptile would not know the difference. 



> I think it is irresponsible to refuse to try frozen/thawed and to have the attitude that snakes eating live rodents is "natural".


I agree. The entire situation stopped being natural the moment that snake was born into captivity and brought into someone's home to live in a vivarium. I've nothing against people keeping snakes or reptiles of any kind (obviously, since I do it with my beardie) but if you're going to do it you need to realize that you do not get to use the "it's natural" argument, because it's not. Nothing about it is natural.


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## hollysrats (Sep 25, 2012)

I had a corn snake for 10 years and only recently gave him to my friend who keeps reptiles, and had a huge viv for him. He's much happier there 

I had rats before the snake, and I have rats again now, it doesn't bother me that I fed mice and rats to my snake, it's just what they eat. 

However, I could never ever feed live rats or mice, it would upset me and the rat just would not have a chance to get away. 
Say for example my cat killed a wild mouse, it wouldn't upset me, but if the cat were in a tiny confined area and I put a live mouse in with it, it would be cruel.

Hopefully I'm making sense.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Jul 24, 2012)

Though I've never had a snake, I'd like to have one eventually. I like snakes and I think corn snakes are so beautiful. 

I'd never be able to feed live mice or rats for the same reason as hollysrats, but also because I'd fall in love with every single rat and mouse and I'd end up wanting to keep it. :l


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

Ill attempt to find the article. It may have been a blog post which is a little different. I will have a look.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Yeah. I've seen Way too many stories of a $2 rat killing a $2,000 snake.

King snakes in the wild eat other snakes and lizards. They are considered one of the hardest snakes to get to eat when they first hatch, but once they learn they almost will never skip a meal, I mean they will all stop eating when shedding, but some snake species will randomly not eat for a few weeks when they are not shedding. There was even this snake who would only eat every 4 months, it was a female Ball python, she didn't loose any weight she just never wanted to eat.

interesting fact for those who don't know. Some snakes are Picky with what they eat. Some will only eat mice, other rats. But more commonly some will only Agouti, some black, some Albino, you get the picture.

The reason they feed rats and mice is because from a nutritional stand point, it gives a snake everything they need. It's like us feeding lab blocks. Some people do feed other rodents but they aren't considered as nutritious for the snake, like feeding a seed mix from the store.


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## Eleanor Lamb (Oct 22, 2012)

Typically when a snake will not eat frozen thawed rodents it is not because “he just won’t eat it” there is usually an under-lying cause. Example during the colder part of the year some snake will go into a “Hibernation Mode” their bodies will just slow down to preserve energy. Or this will happen when it is the snake’s breeding season.
Also the most common snake pet is the Ball python AKA Royal Python, these snakes are known to be very picky eaters, this partly has to do with the fact that rodents are not part of their Natural diet and will actually refuse food until they do starve to death, though this is a rare occasion.
Another reason why people will feed live rodents is because most are very uneducated and will believe anything the pet store tells them to make a quick buck (frozen is less expensive live therefore they want you to buy live to get more money), or people think is it “cool” for their snake to kill, clearly these people should not even own a snake if they cannot respect something as simple as a mouse.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

My boyfriend and I own both a corn snake and two rats. Obviously we don't feed the corn snake rats because her width isn't big enough. We feed her live mice simply because she is a picky eater. We've tried frozen again and again, but she refuses to eat them. Plus, the frozen mice are often more expensive than the live ones.


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## Kif_Kroaker (Oct 25, 2012)

I own 2 snakes. In fact, the first rat I purchased was supposed to be food (I usually feed frozen/thawed rats) but decided to keep him after my snake denied eating it.

I have to say that I'm becoming much more attached to the two rats I have than to my snakes. Reptiles have always fascinated me, and I originally got the snakes because I think they are beautiful, intriguing creatures. However, they couldn't care less about me, or any other human, and their biggest "social skill" is tolerating being handled. 

ON THE OTHER HAND, I'm having a blast getting to know my rat's unique personalities and I'm looking forward to our relationship for the next couple years. I already have plans to purchase more, but the next time around maybe a Russian Blue or some other morph. : )


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## Kif_Kroaker (Oct 25, 2012)

Phantom said:


> My boyfriend and I own both a corn snake and two rats. Obviously we don't feed the corn snake rats because her width isn't big enough. We feed her live mice simply because she is a picky eater. We've tried frozen again and again, but she refuses to eat them. Plus, the frozen mice are often more expensive than the live ones.


Try going to a reptile show. Petsmart/Petco are RIPOFFS in terms of buying food for snakes. At reptiles shows you can get frozen mice/rats for under 2$ each depending on the size. Sorry for the side note.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Reptiles shows or local feeder breeders will be More then happy to do a deal with you. I would personally say avoid Rodentpro though as they have had many bad reviews on their feeders carrying bacteria that can carry on to humans and other animals, like Zootonics.

Plus apparently frozen feeders from people who do it on a smaller scale apparently are more likely to be eaten. Not sure why, but that's what I've read.

If you go onto snake forums people on there will be more then happy to help you with your feeder issue. Also if she won't take frozen, try Pre-kill (Stunning would also work I guess). It's safer for the snake and for the mouse, but it tends to work the same as feeding Live.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

Kif_Kroaker said:


> Try going to a reptile show. Petsmart/Petco are RIPOFFS in terms of buying food for snakes. At reptiles shows you can get frozen mice/rats for under 2$ each depending on the size. Sorry for the side note.


I'll have to look into that more. I've never been to a reptile show before.


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## Kif_Kroaker (Oct 25, 2012)

Phantom said:


> I'll have to look into that more. I've never been to a reptile show before.


They're very fun. If its a big show, you'll see a bunch of crazy morphs you never thought you would see in person. That's one of the things that I wish rats had...There are SO many pattern and color morphs in reptiles. It would be really cool if rats had as much variation from selective breeding.


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## TachisMom (Oct 17, 2012)

I've kept snakes, and would still love to. I had a ball python (my sweet Princess, RIP), and she went with me everywhere (as long as it was warm enough). And of course, I have my beautiful, loving rats. 

My snake was always fed frozen, thawed prey. It's less dangerous for the snake to feed this way, and I didn't ever want my snake to get hurt on my account. Also, while I understand fully that snakes need to eat, just as rats and my kitty does, I couldn't watch a scared mouse or rat run around and get eatten.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

We had a snake as kids, only a little garter snake which lived on earthworms. I've never had a problem with snakes that eat rats though, i just know for me I am and always will be a rat owner, I never really clicked with our snake.

I do actually massively respect people that have snakes and attempt to feed them on well raised prey housed in good conditions and fed a good quality diet, rather than going for rodent farm style frozen or live prey animals bred and raised in tiny tanks with no stimulation.. I've met a few in my time and think its the best way to do it though no doubt very hard. For a start the quality of nutrition for the snake would be better from an animal allowed to run and exercise and eat a healthy diet. And from a welfare point of view it is far nicer for the rats. Unfortunatly this is very rare, its not cheap, and RUB's are just easy.


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## sherriwat (Oct 7, 2012)

i breed ball pythons and i have pet rats. i went to buy feeders from a new breeder to show up and find out i was gonna be getting live feeders so i bought what i could and kept as pets. i only feed frozen thawed to my snakes.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

What about the welfare of the rats pre freezing? Do you know the conditions they are born and raised in, generally its not good. Avoiding feeding live where possible is a good start but that affects a very short time in a rats life.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Isamurat I'm with you on that one. 

I actually used to watch videos of feeder set ups with rats. I mean yeah they were the racks but the really good ones (the nice guys) made sure not to over crowd them, a few even had plastic tub (bin cages) that were well ventilated. There was actually a guy who had a litter and in it was a baby black rat who he fell in love with. Well he tried everything he could to find a home for him. He didn't want to give him to the pet store, he would of been sold as a live feeder (This is a guy who was very against live feeding). I think he didn't want him to live a feeder rats life or something like that so he made the decision after a few weeks of searching to put him down for frozen food. There are other stories similar to this. 

Actually I know a few feeder breeders who name their breeders and keep them as pets and when they retire give them a bigger cage, or for females use them as nannies for the younger girls to help out. A few even give them out of cage time or will play with them. I've seen a few use cages but the most common here are large plastic tubs (like 60 quarts or more, I think that's what you mean by RUBS? cause I've seen it used for bin cages on mouse forums) with well ventilated sides and top. Even seen a few use this to stack them on top of each other or connect them together to give them more room, but this is often for larger colonies. A few give wheels, others boxes, one guy even gave some of his colonies hammocks made from old shirts and towels. As I've already mentioned a few use racks but the good ones get very large tubs/cement mixing trays but the good ones who do that do try to keep the welfare and health of their rats in good condition.

Granite most people don't share my view. I like people who raise their own live stock (or in this case feeders) cause in the end it's healthier and better for both prey and predator.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Rub's are plastic tubs stored in racks, most are too small. Mainly they have a bit of mesh in there lid but I believe by adding mesh side panals too (though cages would be ideal). I do think if you could give a wheel and something to climb on (maybe a branch as it would double as gnawing) then you can make a big improvemt. Cycling the females so they get down time between litters would be a vast improvement too. Then add in occasional fresh veg or left overs and a decent lab block and you've massivly improved the set up. Also using humane methods of euthanasia.

I've spoken to few people who try along these lines, they also keep their breeding rats as pets and give them regular breaks. It's not the same as I keep my rats but I know those animals are respected and have good quality of life.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Most snake people give their rats breaks, anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks often after weaning. Some times shorter, sometimes longer. Some will add in foods in as well like seeds and nuts as treats, along with other stuff, but not all do this. the only thing they can't feed them is dog food due to it having red dye which will kill a snake. Most use decent lab blocks, some use Mazuri and I think some do use Oxbox but not as often as Mazuri. When that whole D3 or B3 thing broke out and killed a lot of rats a lot of them weren't very happy.

I've never heard of one (they probably exist though) that used an inhumane way of euthinization. They often use humane ones. Then again I get all of this off a snake forum where they pride themselves on their snakes And their feeders. Kind of funny to see a guy showing off a blue hooded or a dalmatian that was born by accident. Trust me, some of them get really proud if something they've never seen pops up.

Ok then I guess RUBS are different then what we have here. We have Racks, which are similar but they mainly use Large cement mixing trays (which are 2 ft by 3 ft by like 8 inches tall) and Some will have under bed totes are are bigger as well, but not often. Most here are hand made since it's way too expensive to buy one (Saw one going for $500 once). Most typically don't go smaller then that though. Some do but they often aren't liked as much as their rats are over crowded and sick. There actually are some who are trying to selectively breed for rats less prone to URI.

Uh, I guess things are very different there then.


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## BlackCat99 (Oct 9, 2012)

I have a lot of friends who keep snakes and rats. Most of them refuse to feed those pre frozen guys you get from petco as they don't know where they come from. Most of them get their rats live and from a source that they know keeps their rats healthy and not confined to nasty little cages. They do put them to sleep before feeding though using various methods like the co2 system before feeding so the rat doesn't go through the panic of being strangled and their snake wont get hurt. I used to own a snake before while I had rats but he was relocated before he ate anything bigger than pinky rats. I don't know if I could feed a full grown adult rat to a snake specially if it looked like one of my adorable pet rats .


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## RatBreeder (Oct 29, 2012)

I have both rats (15) and snakes (10). I do have my pets & my breeders. I fall in love with quite a few of my babies, and do not euthanize, and when it comes time to euthanize them, I can't do it, (I have a Co2 chamber, but can not do the deed, my husband does ) 

I know rats and mice are not part of a ball pythons diet, but as stated they are cheaper.


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## sherriwat (Oct 7, 2012)

as stated i breed snakes and i have my pet rats. i do feed frozen thawed but i buy my frozen thawed from local breeders and i refuse to buy from them until i can see their rat room and conditions the rats are held in. once satisfied i will than start buying from that breeder and honestly most are happy to show me as i fork out hundreds of dollars each time i stock up. conditions the rats live in is a big concern and a big deal for snake breeders. yes i know that the frozen rats you get from pet store are kept in horrible conditons but most the time you wont see a true snake person or breeder buying from the petstore because 1. petstore charges too much and 2. us snake people who house numerous snakes know better and know importance of quality rats.

to answer your question about snakes and rats living in same house its no problem. infact one of my snake rack (my breeders largest rack) is in my bedroom and on top of the rack is captains cage. my snakes arent bothered and captains not bothered my snakes arent going crazy smelling food and captain well he just doesnt care. my snakes are also fed on a regualr basis so they dont get a chance to get hunger agressive (best way to describe) and my girls are all too big and fat and lazy anyways.

now cute story. a friend of mine who was going away on vacation was in a hurry and fed his snake live and ran out the door for a 2 week vacation (this snake was one of my babies so it never ever knew live and normally he got his frozen from me, but he stopped at the ept store and bought a live one as i live a ways from him. anyways 2 yr old snake never had live before. went on vacation 2 weeks later come home and rats still alive and snake is unharmed. took rat out of cage next day told me story and got a stock of frozen from me went right home and offered one to his snake (he thought his snake was sick and was right worried cause it starved for 2 weeks lol ) anyways offered the frozen thawed and the snake took it instently. 2 weeks later threw the rat back in with snake and again snake didnt take the live thawed one and offered and snake took it on same night offered live. now not saying this is normal and happens all the time just thought it was cute story about snakes and rats and wanted to share.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I've heard stories like that too. There are even some stories where the snakes have no idea how to eat live prey that they just completely ignore the rat (or mouse) for months.


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## RatBreeder (Oct 29, 2012)

I breed my own rats for the simple fact that I don't want to rely on others to feed my snakes. I know the conditions they are in 24/7 and know if I have a sick one. Some breeders might be okay with you looking, but that doesn't mean that they won't breed a sick one behind your back.


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