# What is PT



## Scintie (Feb 12, 2013)

So I'm sorta a newish rat owner and I keep reading about this PT. What is this? Like what does it stand for? I know they hold their paws kinda fisted but what exactly is it? Is it a guaranteed death sentence? Also what other symptoms should I be looking for in rats to tell if they are sick?
Also, at what weight is a rat considered obese?

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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

PT stand for Pituitary Tumor. I don't have much info on it. I'm sure other will.

There's no "set" weight for rats. You have to look at them a determine if they're over weight or not.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Pt standard for Pituitary tumor. 

The Pituitary gland is found in the middle of the brain and controls all nerve firings and muscle movements.

most of the time because symptoms are not shown in till the tumor is extremely large, and usually the rat dies a few days after symptoms, it normally is a death sentence. Sometimes it can be caught early enough where steroids will help decrease the size of the tumor, but sometimes it just makes the symptoms last longer in till the rat dies. Other times it can be caught early enough and treated to where the rat lives and dies of unrelated causes. Some rats can even have PTs their whole life and never show symptoms and die of unrelated causes.

The biggest sign to look for is Behavioral Changes. This can be bad (A rat turning aggressive) Or it can be a "good" one (example. my rat Storm when he got his PT he started to climb on shoulders and be friendly. this is a rat who in his entire life Never got onto shoulders and for lack of a better word was a Jerk. I really wish I would of payed closer attention to that sign as he got it a week before all his other signs).
Clinched Fists
Respiratory like symptoms (Difficulty breathing)
Muscle spazzums
Issues walking and climbing
Rolling (rat will roll like how a dog does for no reason, typically this happens when they are laying down and on an uneven surface. This is because they can't control their muscle movements or balance)
Pain squeaks for no reason
Dull eyes is also considered a sign but in my 2 rats so far that had PT none of them had dull eyes.
Limbs turning blue
Heart Arrhythmias
Crocked head/walking in circles

Due note that most of these (other then the Clinched fists, Major Behavioral changes, and rolling) can be signs of other stuff such as Arthritis, HED (hind end degeneration), Ear infections, and CHF (Chronic Heart failure).

Rats with hormone issues typically are put at risk for PT (such as Hypo or Hyperthyroidism). typically rats don't develop them in till they are around 2, but of my 2 rats who died of PT, one died at 20 months (Charles) and the other died at 18 months (Storm, but he had Hypothyroidism and had an increased chance of it to begin with).

As for your Obesity question. There is no 'weight". just like in humans it depends on many factors (so BMI basically). Can you post pictures of the rat your concerned about?


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## Scintie (Feb 12, 2013)

Here's a vid http://tinypic.com/r/30utf6t/6
Ill try to get a picture of him compared to his brother in the AM. They came from the same litter and he seems to be huge compared to the other boy. But on the same note the littler one doesn't eat that much, the bigger one eats like a pig. We give them a mix of frozen mixed veggies (peas. Corn, carrots, green beans) daily with maybe a small piece of fruit like one slice of peach or a slice of apple. Sometimes a bit of vanilla Greek yogurt. But then they have pretty much 24 hr access to dry goods like Cheerios, and oats. What should be their main source of food? My significant other feeds them because I'm disabled and it's just easier for her to get around the kitchen and I think she feeds them too much. But she doesn't seem to think he's that fat. I've had rats before as a kid but honestly it wasn't till I became an adult that I really got interested in the well being of animals, so I'd like to know if I'm doing something wrong!


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## WinonaGun42 (Feb 2, 2013)

Scintie, if you can get a lab block type of food it would be easier to feed and might help with the weight a bit. Oxbow Regal Rat and Harlan Teklad are good blocks. Feeding fresh veggies and fruit is good for them but it's hard to be able to balance a diet with human food alone. (I know that there is a moderator here that only feeds human food, but they are very knowledgeable about what constitutes a balanced rat diet.) 
Maybe your larger one is picking out the "good parts" (usually the most fattening) and leaving the rest for the smaller one. With a Lab block, rats can't just pick out the good parts.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

For me PT has some very classic symptoms.

Confusion is usually first noticed by the owner, inability to find things they normally are sharp to find, like water bottles, food items, etc. Their eyes may seem tired or dull, they move slower and weakly. They seem to lose Edge Behavioiur which is the knowledge to stop when they reach the edge of something, and they often will fall or slide off.

Stiffness in the front limbs, often pushing them out in front of them (I call this the PT pushback)

This pic also shows Calla's clubbed, knuckled or fisted paws









Inability to grasp well with front paws...we often do a "cheerio test" at home to determine PT
Here is Calla failing the Test

http://lilspazrats.wikispaces.com/Health+Care-+Pituitary+Tumour+-+Failing+the+Cheerio+Test

The will brux a lot more than usual (not boggling)

They will or might head bump involuntarily when you stroke over their head.

They can lose weight, fall over from weakness, will sit on their hindquarters with their hind legs splayed out for balance and rest their paws on the ground to eat items (early symptoms)...this can be mistaken for aging as well.










Pituitary tumours can grow really fast, or they can be more gradual. The fast ones you often lose them fast even when trying to treat them.

There are basically 2 accepted treatments now (not cures sadly, as this is an incurable condition). Sadly some PT's never respond, and these rats need to be pts or they will die fast. Untreated PT is not a good way to die.

1) steroids to reduce the pressure on the brain...it can give you a week or 8 weeks or sometimes more, but the tumour keeps growing and eventually the steroids won't help and the symptoms recur.
2) an actual PT treatment used on humans or other animal species. There is cabergoline (more effective but sadly seems to be too expensive for people in N. America but is the go-to drug in the UK now) or bromocriptine (slightly less effective but a lot less expensive for US and Canadian owners). I asked my vet to try this treatment as I take in a lot of rescues and am very tired of not being able to do enough. A friend who ran a wonderful rescue in MI tried this and suggested it for my next PT case. The difference between steroids and bromo was the quality of life. The bromo allowed them to go back to almost completely normal for months, no gradual weight loss, etc like on the steroids but a return to full function (gaining back any weight lost, girls going back to going into heat, etc). We documented Issa my vet and I, and even had her necropsied on her death (not a full necro to my regret as I don't think it was the PT that ended her time). We did the same for my other test rat Shade, and this time the necropsy was full and we discovered that it was not the PT that killed her but other internal issues (I have the necro pics if anyone is curious). Right now I have an old boy on bromo and he is doing fantastic! April 15th will be 3 months symptom-free 

Before treatment


















After a shot of dexamethasone to keep him going til the vet visit (things always happen on weekends!!)










2nd day on bromocriptine


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

In the video he looks like a healthy weight actually, doesn't seem obese at all. He could just be a large rat. I have 3 brothers from the same litter and they are all different sizes (Bentley being the biggest, Liam second biggest, Niko being small compared to them). 

The diet sounds fine for a base, but I would be adding in more leafy greens, herbs, and more nuts and seeds (Mainly Cashews since it sounds low in Copper). I would also give them a bit more fruit (and maybe different fruit) like bananas, Cherries, blueberries (Blueberries are very good for rats, it's been proven in multiple tests and studies On rats to decrease the chance of tumors and cancer). you can maybe pick up some dried fruit to put into their dry mix, might also be worth it to pick up some other grains like Pearled barley or Millet. 

you can also do what I do is that my boys get one piece of lab block a day to help with nutrition. It has worked for me for a long time, If you have a day where you don't have a lot of stuff in the house you can give them a small bowl of lab blocks along with the rest of their food.


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