# Time to get snipped?



## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

As some of you might remember i got 2 rattie friends for my George but we are currently not getting anywhere with one of my blue dumbos, Ace is very timid but very slowly getting there with us and can be quite affectionate when he's feeling brave, but Nicky is living up to his name (both names from the film casino), i got 2 brothers so it would be better for everyone all round, I have done one introduction with them all with ended badly, Ace and George seemed fine but Nicky puffed himself up, hissed and attacked George (who admittedly fought back a bit but he's more a lover than a fighter), Still at a little over 6 months old if the dumbos are out Nicky will obsess about trying to get to George, throwing himself at the cage, puffing himself up and hissing and boxing with George through the bars (still have the cages side by side, but the problem is naturally Nicky and Ace play fight, sometimes it gets out of control with Ace squeaking his little head off running away and Nicky chasing him to get to him then Ace spends the rest of the evening scared... that cant be nice for ace to live like that. Nicky only attacks us if we try and pick him up when he is wound up (which granted seems to be most of the time). He does this weird shuffle thing and kung foo kicks too! 
I am running out of options now, i don't want to have a third case set up but i feel George and Ace would be quite happily living with each other by now if Nicky wasn't involved.
So would it help to get him 'snipped'... if he did get castrated would Nicky and Ace have to be separated while he healed (which would create another problem for me)... its that or get rid of him so the other 2 can be happy but this would only be a last resort.

I'm hoping Rat Daddy will read this and offer some advice but if anyone else has any thoughts please reply... i'm at my wits end with this boy


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

It does sound like Nicky is showing hormonal behaviour. The shuffling is a form of spreading his scent, and the fact that he spends most of his time wound up is obviously not good for him and he doesn't sound happy himself. How old is he and how long has he been like this?. From my experience castrating bucks can make a massive difference if the aggression is hormonal. Generally speaking assuming the neuter is straight forward and he comes round well then he should be ok to go back In with his brother in a low levelled cage, or similar.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Nicky is 6 months old, we got him at 8 weeks old and he started doing this a few weeks after getting him


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hormones can begin kicking in at 12 weeks, which seems to corrospond with the time you first noticed him getting aggressive. The sidling, hissing, puffed fur sure sounds hormonal. So he's doing this wi t h brother, too, to some extent or just with your original rat? If he's doing it with brother as well it is more than likely hormonal and a neuter is your best bet. As Isamurat said, if he's all hopped up on hormones this is no fun for him either.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Yeah his brother as well as George


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

I do believe it's time to talk to the vet about a neuter. Some of these little guys get hit quite hard with an over abundance of hormones and it sounds like you've got one.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi SezSorkin,


"Nicky only attacks us if we try and pick him up when he is wound up" Wow this is sooo unacceptable!!!!! A rattie is socialized and friendly and part of your pack and respects you as his alpha or he's not. This is not negotiable nor a part time thing. My part wild would leap into the air and snap and scratch at nothing wildly when she was angry, but my hand would survive unscathed. Biting or attacking daddy for real was the ultimate unthinkable sin as it must be with any "pet" rat. Just to be absolutely clear an unsocialized screwed up rat that thinks he's the alpha might sometimes be very nice to you when you're being submissive, but he's going to be pushy and agressive and even bite when you do something he doesn't approve of. He's not socialized and he's not part of *your* pack. 

No offense intended, a little over the top is just my way of getting everybody on the same page. I don't recall when you got the new guys but by your tone, it would seem that it's at least been a few weeks and likely longer. If not your problems are likely lesser and it's going to be easier than described below.

Otherwise:

First of all I do agree that part of Nicky's problem is hormonal. But hoemones are also a cyclical problem. It would appear from studies that rats with more hormones tend to become more agressive alpha males, but here's the rub; when a normal rat becomes an alpha for whatever reason he starts to produce more hormones and gets more agressive. Hense the strange phenomenon where some people tend to get more hormonal rats than others. In some cases I suspect they were never their ratties true alphas in the first place so their baby filled the role kick starting the hormone cycle. And other people seem never to see the problem because their rats know their submissive place in the pack and never get hormonal. Well before I offend everyone, it's only a theory and I'm sure there are exceptions.

I haven't read any studies on how the process gets reversed, but I have to assume since you are dealing with hormones rather than simple learning, it won't be as instant as socializing before a rat becomes an alpha. Assuming a rats hormone levels will return to normal once he's dethroned and returns to a submissive status, I'm also going to assume that it might not happen in just one session.

The key from what I've seen in successful and peaceful rattie communities is that there is only one Alpha and that alpha should be you. Once you are the unchallenged leader of the pack inter-rat agression dimenishes, not that it goes away completely because there's still status to be won, but no one is fighting for the grand prize.

Lets take on first problem first... Nicky.

Introducing unsocialized rats to socialized rats really presents a major problem. Your socialized rat is your wingman, he's number 2 and he likes it and he's loyal to you. So he doesn't suffer from out of control alpha rat hormones and he doesn't have the hot temper or benefit from the improved muscle tone high hormones would give him, but he's loyally defending your leadership position and his place in the world. Whereas Nicky, an unsocialized alpha, has the benefit of stronger agression and muscle tone. So first thing you need to do is become the Alpha rat to everyone. 

My technique "immersion" works best right from the start. First I don't bring home rats that aren't generally docile and friendly at the place of adoption. This way I'm not likely to wind up with a hormonal or alpha right from the start. Second before the new rattie even sees it's new cage, it gets extensively handled and played with. Our last rat was handled for about 7 hours strait, and we also introduced our older rat at the same time so after 7 hours of human-rattie play we put our year and a half old rattie into the same cage with our new 7 month old rattie and they curled up into a single ball and passed out. The dynamic was simple, the new rattie learned in no uncertain terms that she was joining our pack, she was otherwise homeless and friendless... (she actually snorted and growled) but otherwise kept coming right back to us for playfighting and affection. Our big rattie (23 oz worth who had violent fights with new roomies in the past) participated right from the start with the socialization and took her cue from us. Yes, she did a little nipping, but my hands were in between within a split second. So it was clear to her that her alpha approved the new friend and was protecting her and the new rattie realized that messing with our big girl meant messing directly with me and I'm over 200 times her size. The introduction ended oddly enough when our big girl slowly approached the new rattie head down and close to the ground and the new rattie stood up on her hind legs an pushed our old girl over onto her side with only one paw. It looked like cow tipping. Then they pretty much agreed to get along. But the key to the introduction process was that it was sanctioned and managed by the agreed upon alpha.... me. The new young big and strong girl learned instantly she was messing with my number 2 rattie and I would protect her and my big girl knew her place in the pack was secure and there was no reason for two big strong rats to hurt each other. As to scent both rats smelled like the same humans (us) and as to cage position, the new rat didn't even know where she was going to live, much less have a cage to conquer. And I'm pretty sure my girl didn't care much about defending the hallway she rarely plays in.

OK, it's too late for that for you, but there are a few lessons to take away from it. First you need to socialize Nicky to you. Second you should do it on neutral territory Nicky isn't instinctively defending and third you have to plan for a several hour session (and I suspect until his hormones go down several sessions). Bring along a couple thick towels and thick gloves if need be, but you are taking control in no uncertain terms. Don't worry about frightening him... the fear of death might actually work to your benefit. You've seen the way he behaves as an alpha and that's what he expects from anyone trying to be his alpha. You don't stop the session until you are in control and he stops attacking you or fighting back. If you have to wrap him in a towel until he calms down you do it. The closer you are to winning the more he's going to fight. Speak calmly to him whenever he's being non offensive, you can shout if he's being hostile and at any sign of friendlyness or submission slip him a treat or a "good boy" in your friendly voice and be just as hands on with skritches, and pets and hugs as possible. He has to understand you are a nice alpha, not a mortal enemy. These exchanges happen fast. He attacks - you stop him, yell and control him, he approaches you nicely he gets a treat or a skritch or a belly rub. Rats shift modes fast and so must you.

Now rats learn in lightbulb moments... it's like throwing a switch. It's like suddenly he'll realize he's not in charge and you are and he better be nice to you. Thats when you give him all of the affection, belly rubs and outrageously fattening treats he can stand. People mistake the belly rub thing as a way to show dominance and try to flip and scratch a rat that's attacking them, when it's actually an alpha's way of welcoming a new rat into the pack *after* he submits. You're saying, I'm in charge, but I'm a nice alpha and welcome to my pack.

I suspect this kind of treatment will work with most ratties. I suppose that it might work with almost all ratties if you are willing to go through enough of a battle. How big a fight you have depends on how long he's been the alpha, and how persistant he is to hang on to his status. I've never heard of a rat that will defend his alpha status to the death, but for those that absolutely can't be brought under control there is of course castration to reduce the hormones... but that still leaves you with the same socialization process afterwards, you've just deflated his sails a little by the surgery.

Now that we've fixed Nicky and he will follow your lead and is submissive to you always then you can start introductions again on neutral turf. But now you are in between and neither rat is going to attack or bite you. I've done it with two rats on my lap on a recliner... afterwards my hand itched and I noticed I had dozens of tiny holes in my hand but none bled, and I was introducing my part wild rat to my young and powerful shoulder rat and it got really hairy. I put my hand in between, I bopped and swatted them apart, I whispered, yelled and mostly kept talking in a very calm voice. I hugged and skritched both, one at a time and together. The fight took about two hours but I then carried them to their cage on the same arm. The two rats never really stopped skirmishing and they never did work out the dominence thing completely but they had family quarrels and no one got killed. They would actually sit on opposite sides of the cage and wait for me to take them out so they could do battle where they both had running room and I could referee and then they would go back to the cage and be happy again. But normally once the fight is over and one rat isn't a part wild the social order you establish sticks (minor squabbles not withstanding).

And yes, Ace gets the same treatment, you don't need him trying to take charge once Nicky starts calming down. He should be a lot easier and might need very little "playfighting" and a lot more tenderness, but you call it on the fly. Same deal, you engage until you get the desired submissive friendly results. And reward the heck out of him.

Trust training tells you to act one way, while forced socialization recommends another, both and neither work alone. You see socialization depends on you to make fast judgments and good calls on the fly. And a process where you take a hostile rat out of a cage, he asserts his dominance over you and you put him back only ends in a forever battle that reassures him that he will always win. 

Until Ace is socialized, he can't go and live with George, but after he's in the right pack it becomes your judgment call. Being alone might help Nicky realize he's only the alpha of one, but it could also make him feel more betrayed by you. It's a call you will have to make on the fly.

Yes, I know this sounds hard, and to some degree you should expect the worst and hope for the best. But I have to assume you didn't weed out Nicky before you bought him and he already might have had dominence problems (you never said he was really nice and then went hostile) and every day you let him rule the roost, the more he gets intrenched in his alpha role and the more he expects you to be submissive to his wants, and this can't continue.

There is one final issue to consider, and it's very important. You becoming and remaining the alpha requires you being there alot. If you gain control and then leave the rats to fend for themselves, Nicky is eventually going to reestablish dominance and you will come back after a few days or weeks of no human interaction to find him standing over George and Ace's bleached bones. 

You're question was about introductions and castration and I made it about socialization... I know it's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it's first things first. Castration might work, but it's expensive, likely painful, has certain risks and most likely requires socialization anyway. 

My method entails certain risks to you, and no small amount of courage on your part. But you sound like you really love your rats and if anyone has a shot at making your family work, you do. So be brave, be persistant, be consistant and most of all be the Alpha 24 x 7. Then once you are in charge of everyone put your rattie house in order. It's like being a mom a dad or a teacher and managing kids, once they know who's the boss getting them to play nice is easier.

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For newbies reading this thread in horror, I've done this before and we've gotten more than a few ratties and humans through this process with little or no bloodshed. Most humans have great instincts and know down deep what to do, and I'm just giving them the kick in the pants and a little methodology to do it successfully. And ratties really want to belong to your pack and be loved by you so odds are in your favor from the start. But if you want to avoid the hassels pay particular attention to the paragraph on choosing your new rats and how to treat them once you get them home to head off the problems in the first place. One person actually posted photos of his bloody hands before we started and ended the thread a couple of days later with a new very bestest rattie friend. We reintroduced our new rattie to her previous mom (for 6 months) and they had a 20 second meet and greet and then our new girl jumped right back to our pack where she knows she belongs. Rats know when they feel loved and welcomed and where they have a strong and caring alpha and good packmates. Her previous mom admittedly neglected her and was never her alpha. And our new rattie didn't even know her own name when we got her. She was still human friendly but that was because she was desperate for attention and any nice human was as good as another. 

Finally:

NOTHING ALWAYS WORKS, (even with the odds way in your favor) and not everyone is built for rattie combat, and some rats might have health (including genetically unbalanced hormones) or behavorial problems or have been so screwed up by humans that they can't realistically be helped... ever. But those are the chances you take when the store clerk puts on heavy gloves and snatches the big one by the tail and plunks him into a carton, quickly closing the lid and hands you a bouncing baby box with a warning against opening it outside of another cage.

Good luck, I hope this helps.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Phew that was a lot to take it, But your very right about everything you have said Rat Daddy and i appreciate you taking the time to write all of that, I shall begin rattie combat ASAP and get everything in order.
You are right, i love my boys and i just want them to be happy so i will do what is necessary in order for that to happen. 
I shall print this off to show the other half so he knows what he needs to do too


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I know it's alot, but in order to really change your rat you have to change yourself and the way your rat sees you. Real rat training is on the job learning and making fast judgment calls. Making the right choices depends on understanding your roll in the process and being guided by the right philosophy when the choices come up and to understand what your rattie is telling you and what message you are sending to your rat.

Fast answers like flip and scratch your rats belly or offer treats are correct, but without really knowing when and why, they don't help most people that don't first understand the why's as well as the hows. 

With kids, punishment works, rewards work, conversations work, enforcing dicipline works as does unconditional love.... But they aren't different approaches nor is any one method right for all kids or applicable to every situation. A good parent knows which approach is best and when. But in order to give a kid what he needs a parent has to understand the problem and be guided by a sound philosophy. Same is true with socializing rats.

In the end successful socialization and introductions depend on your instincts and your on the spot judgment calls. A broad understanding of your role, your goals and options is critical in order to apply your best instincts to the process. Sometimes when we set out to drain the swamp we get so involved with the alligators that it's easy to forget why we are there in the first place... I hope this helps you and Nicky, Ace and George to get on the right track... the hard work is still up to you. BTW I was assuming that George is already well socialized and friendly, if not spend some time with him too.

Best luck


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks rat daddy, yes George is completely socialized and extremely well behaved, i have a lovely bond with him that i would like to have with all my boys


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Your welcome and best luck with your guys. Let me know how it goes.


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