# Are you supposed to show rats dominance?



## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

I had my guys out to play around today and noticed they were being especially feisty. The middle man, Karney, who is never content with his place in the rat hierarchy, was going out of his way to flip everyone over. He was being more rough that I thought necessary at one point so I nudged him in the side to distract him. He immediately rolled over and let me rub his belly for a bit (making the "I submit" face). When I let him up, he spent a few seconds intensely licking my fingers before wandering off. He has yet to bully anyone since then. Does anyone use rat techniques of dominance showing to correct their rats? I never used it before but Karney's adolescent age means he is testing all boundaries. If this technique will show him he cannot be a punk, I definitely will keep it tucked away, but I also do not want to over correct and upset him. How do others normally correct their rats when they are being too pushy, how often do you step in?


----------



## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm gonna opt out of the question of whether or not you should show dominance towards your rats, but either way, I wouldn't consider what you did--a little nudge and a belly rub--as "showing dominance". I often throw my hand in when they're wrestling, but more to join in than break it up. It doesn't sound like you did anything dominant, per se.


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I will shove rats off other rats, pick them up and hold them or firmly pet them. And of course boop them. 

I do it when it has gone beyond what is allowed and normal and has become overtly dominant and problematic. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

I do not mean dominance in showing your superiority as human. I mean it in the sense of rats who roll over and allow themselves to be groomed to show submission to others. I am sure you have seen your rats do it. That is what happened; we were not wrestling and I did not merely nudge him and then give him a pet. He rolled over onto his back and held himself that way to allow me to "groom" his stomach and neck the same way he does to the top rat in my little mischief. I did not know if people actually used the same technique to correct their rats when they are getting out of hand. I was merely curious.


----------



## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

toke said:


> That is what happened; we were not wrestling and I did not merely nudge him and then give him a pet. He rolled over onto his back and held himself that way to allow me to "groom" his stomach and neck the same way he does to the top rat in my little mischief. I did not know if people actually used the same technique to correct their rats when they are getting out of hand. I was merely curious.


I think I understand what you meant. What I was trying to say is I wouldn't consider that showing dominance, but rather playing with your rat in the way rats play with each other. I don't doubt your account, but I question whether Karney stopped flipping other rats that particular time because you expressed dominance and a desire that he stop, or because he was looking for someone to play with and you essentially obliged. 

My apologies if it looked like I was criticizing your question: I didn't mean to make it sound like "merely" anything.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The problem is that we don't have a good vocabulary in common for rat training... I wrote the guide on immersion, and I actually struggled a great deal with words, I used the term human alpha to try to convey a strong loving parental leadership role... and some people read alpha as being overbearing and punitive like a wolf alpha or worse... I won't even go into the debate my use of the word pack, (as in rat pack) started. 

I actually understand the use of the word dominance that's intended here, it's part of the immersion philosophy that a human should be the "human alpha of his or her pack." Dominance is intended to convey a leadership position of respect, perhaps more than power. As the human alpha of my pack, my rats certainly don't blindly obey me, in fact they are very independent around the house, but overall when we are out at the park or in a crowd they follow my leadership and guidance. As to respect, I never get bit, but they will wake me up at 5:00 AM by prying my lips open and sticking their heads into my mouth... If I shout "stop fighting" they stop and if I raise my voice my rats become suspiciously invisible. 

Let me tell you all a story about belly rubs... Fuzzy Rat who was the smartest rat I've ever known and who taught me much of what I integrated into immersion actually picked her own room mate... We looked at countless rats and always took Fuzzy Rat along. She would walk down my arm sniff the new rat and then scurry back up my arm to my shoulder and point away... When we met Amelia a 7 month old neglected high white rat, she sniffed walked back up my arm and started giving me kisses.... My daughter liked Amelia, and I have to admit she was a sharp looking high white with curly fur... So even though I don't usually adopt 7 month old screwed up rats... I gave in and we took Amelia home... During the immersion introduction the rats boxed for less than 5 minutes and Fuzzy Rat flipped on her side and let Amelia groom her. But afterwards Fuzzy Rat lead Amelia around the immersion area in a chase and play session... I realized that Fuzzy Rat was too old and pudgy to beat the huge, young and strong Amelia in any fair fight, but still I never thought she would submit in 15 minutes and let Amelia be dominant...

Well thereafter when Amelia had food that Fuzzy Rat wanted she would just take it and when Amelia fought back, Fuzzy Rat would always just roll over onto her back and Amelia would groom her, then Fuzzy Rat would snatch the food and run off to eat it... leaving Amelia hungry and confused... Yes, rats do roll over to express submission, and the aggressor rat is compelled to groom other, but it's not always submission in the sense of dominance. If you ever saw Fuzzy Rat and Amelia together you would likely remark that Amelia was Fuzzy Rat's pet rat. Amelia, snuggled with Fuzzy Rat, groomed her when she had tumors and couldn't groom herself and took excellent care of her... Even though Fuzzy Rat never won a single fight she also never gave up her status. 

I dare say dominance and submission are likely the best human words to describe the behavior when rats role over and let themselves be skritched, but those terms don't exactly mean the same thing for humans as they do for rats...

So yes... I very much agree that the human should always have a leadership role in their mischief, and sometimes humans have to be just a little aggressive to maintain their "authority"... but all of the words I used in that sentence are best fit not completely accurate because we just don't have better ones defined. It's not that we often disagree, rather it's just too easy to misunderstand each other.


----------

