# How do you turn away?



## keegen456 (Mar 2, 2016)

I was at a local pet store this morning since I was in need of some rat food and it's super close to my house. I was looking in their feeder bins and there were two rats that caught my eye. While all the other rats were hiding, these two were out and looking for ways to get out of the cage. The petstore worker told me those girls were from a lady who's kid no longer wanted them. Two females, about 5-6 months old, thrown in a bin with male rats so probably already pregnant. They were the sweetest things. One immediately climbed onto my hand and ran up my shoulder to play with my hair. The other climbed onto my hand and started licking my fingers. I was so sad leaving them there  how do you not bring every rat home????


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

For me, the only way is not to look. If I'm unaware, I can't bring them home. Let me be aware and I wind up with 13 rats in a DCN, and right now I have 2 DCNs, so I really don't want to know. If I had met those two girls, they would likely be at the vet right now to discuss spaying. I really don't want to do litters if it is at all possible to prevent it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You could buy your rat stuff online instead. It is cheaper, and you won't sponsor animal cruelty. It is a win-win. Bringing every rat home would make you a rat hoarder- never ends well. I know I was involved with a rescue at an animal hoarder's home a few years ago. Chances are that the salesperson might have lied to you, it is a well known tactic to get people to buy more rats and big surprise (not really) more rat supplies to go with them. If it is true and that people just dumped them, it is very sad. Don't feel bad, how could you possibly take care of 20-30 baby rats plus two moms? It is super difficult to get babies adopted out to good homes and you would end up with way more rats that you could possibly handle. If you still want to help then, you need to forward that info to a rat rescue and see if they are interested.


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## liesel (Feb 13, 2013)

how can you throw rats that have lived amongst humans for 5-6 months into a feeder bin?? poor things. Some people really I'm sorry but if my kid no longer wants their pet they are going to learn that's tough luck you can't just get rid of a pet you committed to looking after it, you either look after it or you find someone who can and will treat it right, no throwing it in a feeder bin, you took on the responsibility of giving that animal a good life you give it a good life even if that means finding someone else who can for you, but you do not just get to say that was fun but now I'm done and return it to a pet store. ugh. Anyway to answer your actual question, around here they have pet store and pet supply stores. The pet supply stores don't sell any animals just food, cage accessories etc. There further to drive to sometimes but I can't buy what I can't see. maybe look into one in your area. mine actually never use to sell my rat food but they started selling it just for me because I told them I'd shop there often and buy 2 bags a month on average and I do. They were already ordering supplies from that same supplier anyway so to throw some rat food in the order didn't hurt anyone and they make money off it so they don't care.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

We adopted our part wild girl from a feeder bin, she was supposedly a customer return and had been worked with by a little girl... She had obviously been worked with otherwise we never would have been able to socialize her... I just don't know by who... 

Then our high white and her brother were also found in the same snake bin... There was no way they were from the commercial mill all of the other rats were from, but the store employees wouldn't divulge their source... It turns out that there was/is an ethical breeder about an hour from the store that specializes/specialized in high whites who 'guarantees' their health... Can anybody say culls from a litter gone south. And employee adopted the two high whites and gave Amelia to me when her kids lost interest in her...

So yes, I've seen both high end breeder rat culls and turned in rats in feeder bins... and took two home.

But as we almost always adopt rats from bad situations like feeder bins we always have to leave way more beautiful rats behind than we can adopt. And after every rat we have adopted I actually have nightmares about those I left behind and what is happening to them... I call it new rat remorse. I even start thinking we adopted the wrong rat... it's an awful feeling... It usually takes me about three days to start enjoying our new rat... to get the cute little faces of the rats still in the bin or worse out of my mind... The the new rat starts bonding with us and catching on... and I start to feel happy again. I saved the right one... perhaps they were all the right ones, but a loving, warm little fuzz-buddy always helps me get over the new rat remorse blues.

In part it motivates me to give our rats the very best life possible and to train them... Each one of our girls beat the odds and survived at the cost of other rat lives... it's their purpose to become special, and if possible even amazing... 

I suppose that's how I deal with the rats I can't take home.... by doing everything I can for those I do.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

It's borderline impossible to find 20lbs ofOxbow around me, so my local pet store orders it on special for me. They don't sell animals, or have a great small animal supply, so no temptation. 

_Now Craigslist, on the other hand, there's a horrible temptation._

I just keep reminding myself of all the scars I have from Craigslist rats.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And by the way... When I was in grade school there was a note posted by the office.. I will adopt your unwanted small animal... and a phone number. I always thought it was nice... When I went to middle school the same note appeared there a year after I started there... and again when I was in high school...

Then I went to a new friend's house one of the huge modern homes way up on the hill... I mean in the big buck neighborhood. And he showed me his very rare and very endangered and very big Florida black indigo snake. It pretty much had it's own room.. and the back wall was lined with small animal cages of all types. I asked about all of the cages and he asked me if I had ever seen the note on the school wall.... 

I couldn't help but ask what he told the kids that gave him their pets when they asked what he was going to do with their small animals... he replied "I never lied to anyone, but no one ever asked." And no he didn't feel at all guilty... they were all unwanted and unloved animals anyway... But if you saw the volume of cages piled against the wall, floor to ceiling, you would really be horrified at how many people, or kids specifically don't care about their pets when they aren't new and exciting anymore.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Craigs list.. now there's a recipe for success... adopt an innocent rat... torture it for a few months, starve it for a while, neglect it for a few more months and when you are tired of getting bitten, list it 'free with cage' so someone with absolutely no rat experience gets to have some more fun with it... Free hamster cage... how can anybody go wrong?


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Yep. It's why I joined a rescue: if I feel like working with someone else's rejects, they'll send them to me. (Just got a remind myself to be careful what I wish for.)

But, you know, it's not that they're vicious or anything. They "just don't have enough time for them."

Like, if you have time to sleep in for three hours on weekends and stay up partying until 2 am, then you have time to rat proof a room and let them run around while you scroll through Tumblr/Facebook. ****, you could _even play with them_ at that point.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Best to stay away from craiglist type sites if you value your sanity. Its even worse with dogs. "Friendly 6 month old puppy, sadly we have come to the heartbreaking decision to sell our beloved pup as we no longer have the time to take care of him...oh by the way, that will be $1000. To help ease our pain :,( "


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

You just have to tell yourself you can't. It's easier said than done I understand. 

I've been REALLY wanting this little self black rat that the breeder I got my current rats has, and I would also need to take her sister. However there's no possible way we could take on two more rats when we already have three. Not that it's a financial thing, but it's more of a they'll all be a similar age and maybe pass away around the same time thing. There'd also be more mess, and who knows maybe they'd throw off how sweet my girls are now.

Just make up your mind before going to the store and say, "I hope all you guys find good homes."


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't look at Craigslist animals, if I can avoid it, but after our pet shop closed and I hadn't found our breeder yet, I was watching for pups. 

And every so often, there would be an add for a hundred plus rats at a dollar a piece, all sizes and colors... must go by the dozen... and a rat breeding rack system... It and the rats all always had to go because the landlord was evicting the owner by Friday. I can't swear it was the same set up, but it sure looked like it... 

Someone would buy the racks, go into the rat business... get over run with rats that no one wanted and get threatened by their landlord... then it all had to go usually by the same Friday. It's like these stupid racks attracted get rich quick future rat barons with exceptionally low intellects and big plans... that just couldn't learn from someone else's failures... 

I mean, I can see the next buyer already..... "Look honey, there's a rat breeding rack system on Craig's list and a hundred rats for a dollar each, must go by the dozen... someone's gone broke and is getting evicted because of it.... Hey, lets buy the racks cheap and get into the rat business too!" And the suffering goes on... both human and rat... The humans might have deserved it, but I always felt sorry for the rats.

Sadly the racks looked pretty well built and are likely to last... attracting future rat entrepreneurs and torturing and killing rats by the hundreds for years to come... Now that ad was hard to look at.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I went into my local shelter today and they have a beautiful little boy who appears to be younger than 6 months, probably closer to 3-4 months. He's clearly been underhandled but he's super sweet and his tail is abnormally short like it's been amputated or degolved. He's all alone and it was so hard to leave him there. I can't afford to neuter another male right now though and it's the only reason I didn't snap him up then and there. I'm still fighting the temptation to go back in and get him because I do have room for one more... I'd just have to neuter him... But if I did take him I'd just hold him temporarily until I could rehome him with my other boys I'm rehoming.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

keegen456 said:


> I was at a local pet store this morning since I was in need of some rat food and it's super close to my house. I was looking in their feeder bins and there were two rats that caught my eye. While all the other rats were hiding, these two were out and looking for ways to get out of the cage.


This precisely how I ended up with my first rat. I'd never had a rat before, but my conscience wouldn't let me leave her. I felt horrible for only taking one. My plan was to take care of her until I could find her a home, and if not, I would keep her. Believe me, I would have because I'm the sappy sucker for animals. I did find one for her, but Anga cast a spell on me before the lady could come get her. 

This is also exactly why I have always avoided all pet stores, shelters, Craigslist and places that are well known dumping grounds for unwanted pets. I can handle going into the Petsmarts around here. I know the rats won't be reptile cuisine and the rats are always in a clean cage with plenty of space. But I will not go into a pet store that sells breeders. 

I'm not sure how I will get my next rats. I'd rather save one, but I'd also rather not choose among them. I've only ever had to choose once. Every one of the other animals I've had just moved in one day without asking permission or even putting up a deposit! I have a lot of animals now because I can't turn away the ones that show up. Can you imagine what it would be like _for me to go to them_??? It would be a nightmare situation! I'm lucky I can take care of the ones I have! I can't chance not being able to care for them by being stupid and going into a pet store or shelter. As much as I wish I could, it's just not possible for me to save them all. I don't want nightmares from seeing the ones I can't help

I'm with Grib, get everything on line and let them send it to me! It's been very convenient for cat litter. I don't have to heave it up into the basket, lug it around the grocery store, haul it to the car and grunt carrying it the front porch steps. I say let UPS do all that for me!


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## Minky (Apr 4, 2013)

I read this thread and I don't understand how "Craigslist Rats" can be generalized into one category. In my area there are not many byb's or feeder breeders. Mostly it's people who want or need to rehome perfectly sweet and social pet rats, and occasionally someone adopting out babies from accidental litters. I've even seen people trying to rehome rats that were dumped. But I'd say mostly it's clean pet rats in decent cages. 

I think it's important to remember that what shows up on CL could be quite different, depending on where you live. Where I live it's definitely worth checking.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Minky said:


> I read this thread and I don't understand how "Craigslist Rats" can be generalized into one category. In my area there are not many byb's or feeder breeders. Mostly it's people who want or need to rehome perfectly sweet and social pet rats, and occasionally someone adopting out babies from accidental litters. I've even seen people trying to rehome rats that were dumped. But I'd say mostly it's clean pet rats in decent cages. I think it's important to remember that what shows up on CL could be quite different, depending on where you live. Where I live it's definitely worth checking.


it is not about that. It is about checking knowing that one cannot afford an extra rat, or that the chances of seing horrible things is way too high. As a result the person will either do the mistake to take in rats that he/she cannot afford or have nightmares about not being able to do anything.

Unless someone is really really wanting to adopt a rat and can afford it, AND is "emotionally strong" enough to block any cases where not all animals can be helped- then looking at Craigslist is an awful idea. Same with going into a pet store. Just don't do it, you will feel better. If you keep doing it, you are willingly torturing yourself. 

I know I was guilty of the same thing. A few years ago, there was that awful person selling rabbits for meat. Being a rabbit owner, I wanted to help them. I contacted someone I know at the House Rabbit Society...long story short, I was explained that getting any of those rabbits would only make the situation worse as it would encourage the person to just produce more rabbits. Same when you buy any pets in pet stores, more are produced in horrible pet mills. I got it, they were right. Not looking at Craigslist anymore.


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## buzzwizz619 (May 31, 2015)

A few weeks ago i went into pets at home and saw 2 6 month old rats that no-one wanted because they werent babies anymore, "dont breed or buy while shelter animals die" was stuck in my head so i made myself walk away. I regretted that decision so much, i went back 2 days later to get them and they werent there, the store said they had sold but i didnt believe them, i thought they had just moved them out back or something.

Multiple calls to head office, the store manager and tracking down an employee of the store on facebook i finally had it confirmed that they had defiantly been rehomed, i felt so stressed for the entire week, i wasnt sleeping properly or anything i regretted walking away so much.

I learnt something valuable from that day, as much as i firmly believe in not supporting pet shops or buying animals from them sometimes for your own sake youve got to make an exception to the rule. I will always regret walking away, and i will always wonder if they have a good home or if they are just going to be forgotten about after 6 months.

But the silver lining is now ive been able take in 4 little boys from a pet shop rescue who i believe need me just as much as those 2 boys in pets at home did.

I check gumtree daily and also the "rat rescue network" facebook page, i trust my instincts and there are some rats that i just know i need to help, there a big difference between rats which are being advertised as "free to good home only" and "need them gone by friday".

Although i a way i am very fortunate, i dont really have any constrains on how many rats i can take in, but i always try to stick to taking in just those who NEED somewhere safe instead of those who the owners are making some attempt to find a good home for.

Although i have to say the problem with feeder rats doesnt seem (as far as im aware anyway) to be anywhere near as big of a problem in the UK as it is in the US

xxx


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Actually it was even worse than that. The person selling those rabbits was using the following tactic, and was referring to one rabbit in particular. "That rabbit is soooo sweeeeet it would be a pity that I kill her too for meat, she deserves a good home blablabla". Well the person in rabbit rescue explained to me that paying for that one rabbit was an awful idea, and that they rescue rabbits only if they are FREE- she was absolutly right. I just wish I didn't see that ad. Not looking at Craigslist anymore.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

buzzwizz619 said:


> A few weeks ago i went into pets at home and saw 2 6 month old rats that no-one wanted because they werent babies anymore, "dont breed or buy while shelter animals die" was stuck in my head so i made myself walk away. I regretted that decision so much, i went back 2 days later to get them and they werent there, the store said they had sold but i didnt believe them, i thought they had just moved them out back or something.Multiple calls to head office, the store manager and tracking down an employee of the store on facebook i finally had it confirmed that they had defiantly been rehomed, i felt so stressed for the entire week, i wasnt sleeping properly or anything i regretted walking away so much.I learnt something valuable from that day, as much as i firmly believe in not supporting pet shops or buying animals from them sometimes for your own sake youve got to make an exception to the rule. I will always regret walking away, and i will always wonder if they have a good home or if they are just going to be forgotten about after 6 months.But the silver lining is now ive been able take in 4 little boys from a pet shop rescue who i believe need me just as much as those 2 boys in pets at home did.I check gumtree daily and also the "rat rescue network" facebook page, i trust my instincts and there are some rats that i just know i need to help, there a big difference between rats which are being advertised as "free to good home only" and "need them gone by friday"For your own sake, don't step in a pet store, ever again. You were RIGHT not to buy those rats. But you made yourself sick because you saw them. Stop torturing yourself by going into a pet store. The problem is that thousands of people EACH day believe that that ONE exception is ok- and the result? Pets are dying in shelters. Although i a way i am very fortunate, i dont really have any constrains on how many rats i can take in, but i always try to stick to taking in just those who NEED somewhere safe instead of those who the owners are making some attempt to find a good home for.Although i have to say the problem with feeder rats doesnt seem (as far as im aware anyway) to be anywhere near as big of a problem in the UK as it is in the USxxx


You were RIGHT not to buy those rats. For your own sake, don't visit pet stores, ever again. You are willingly torturing yourself if you do.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli,

So, you didn't buy the rabbit as a pet, so someone else made a roast out of it... Maybe that one was that sweet and the vendor thought it deserved a good home... I'm not sure I get your point. I'm somehow thinking that if people find out you didn't think the rabbit was a suitable pet they would still eat it anyway. The vendor might have felt better selling rabbits as pets, but in the long run, I doubt he cared enough not to sell it for someone's dinner.


And yes, some of the rats on Craigs list are accidental litters or really wonderful rats that need new homes. Great rats are where you find them... But lots of horror stories start out on Craigs list too. People who know rats can pretty easily tell the difference... usually. But some new rat owners don't even know to open the cage and reach in... "The lady says he is nice and handed me the cage." or "he'll calm down when you get him home." And finally, "He looked so sad, I felt so sorry for him... I didn't even think to handle him before taking him home." It's very unfair to lump all CL rats into one pile, but when people are selling broken down used cars or biting pets you can't always rely on their honesty.

We got a great deal on a car from Craigs list... We got it for $1000.00 and it had 4 new tires and $1600.00 worth of new parts in it... And a new DVD movie player. And it drove and ran great... Too good to be true? Absolutely! The car ran for a week and died in the driveway. No way to get it started... and I'm pretty certain that it happened before... very likely it had left it's former owner stranded all over the place. Thankfully, it was dead and I could diagnose it properly... it only took a week to determine that the computer was shot.... New computer was $700.00 plus $200.00 to program it... Junk yard computer was $80.00. We've had the car for about 5 years now, still runs great, sunk $700.00 into the trans in December and it was still worth the investment. The former owner sank $1600.00 into this nightmare car... and if it hadn't hard failed I would not have been able to diagnose it as easily as I did. If it just kept breaking down and not starting.. this car would have been ****... I'm a pretty good mechanic and it worked out.... but never did the seller tell us that there was something wrong with the car... I knew better and expected a surprise, but some unsuspecting person was going to pay dearly for this lemon if they didn't have someone with years of diagnostic experience in the house. And if they bought the computer new the car would not have been much of a bargain.

It's not always that the stuff on craigs list is bad.. it's that people won't tell you when it is... My wife sold her car on craigs list... I told the guy the motor was warn out and the car needed $3000.00 in repairs... He said he was an expert and I don't think he believed me, he towed it away the same day... My trash... some one else's bargain... sometimes, sometimes not. Listen to what people tell you... They might be telling you the truth... or they might be lying through their teeth. 

Just keep one thing in mind, people don't often sell great cars or best furry friends. They do however make a point to get rid of biting animals and unreliable cars. Buyer beware.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

If someone in rabbit rescue for over 15 years tells me that giving money to an animal abuser only encourage that person to breed more animals, I will believe her. Oh wait, I didn't need anyone to tell me that as it is super obvious to anyone.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Preaching to the choir here Gribouilli!

And for the record, I posted my oops litter that I've been handling constantly and want desperately to go to good homes on Craigslist! Don't you tell me everyone selling on Craigslist is a byb or mill breeder! Or are you accusing ME of being one too? Are my rats unworthy of being adopted just because they're on Craigslist? Stop generalizing when you don't know the whole story!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> Preaching to the choir here Gribouilli!And for the record, I posted my oops litter that I've been handling constantly and want desperately to go to good homes on Craigslist! Don't you tell me everyone selling on Craigslist is a byb or mill breeder! Or are you accusing ME of being one too? Are my rats unworthy of being adopted just because they're on Craigslist? Stop generalizing when you don't know the whole story!


Huh? Where did I say that everyone posting on Craigslist were mill breeders? No one said that pets on Craigslist were unworthy to be adopted either.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I think this is something that an individual must decide what is the best action for themselves.

In my experience, most people will walk away for many reasons. Most them don't walk away because they don't want to support a puppy mill, feeder mill, etc. 

Personally, if I come face to face with an animal in need of help,_ I cannot and will not turn and walk away_. As a single person, I can't make the mills stop producing pets. But as a single person, I can help one animal have a better life. The story of star fish explains exactly how I feel about it. 

The Starfish Story


A young man is walking along the ocean and sees a beach on which thousands and thousands of starfish have washed ashore. 

Further along he sees an old man, walking slowly and stooping often, picking up one starfish after another and tossing each one gently into the ocean.“

Why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?,” he asks.

“Because the sun is up and the tide is going out and if I don’t throw them further in they will die.”

“But, old man, don’t you realize there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it! You can’t possibly save them all, you can’t even save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you work all day, your efforts won’t make any difference at all.”

The old man listened calmly and then bent down to pick up another starfish and threw it into the sea. 


“It made a difference to that one.”


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> I think this is something that an individual must decide what is the best action for themselves.In my experience, most people will walk away for many reasons. Most them don't walk away because they don't want to support a puppy mill, feeder mill, etc. Personally, if I come face to face with an animal in need of help,_ I cannot and will not turn and walk away_. As a single person, I can't make the mills stop producing pets. But as a single person, I can help one animal have a better life. The story of star fish explains exactly how I feel about it. The Starfish Story A young man is walking along the ocean and sees a beach on which thousands and thousands of starfish have washed ashore. Further along he sees an old man, walking slowly and stooping often, picking up one starfish after another and tossing each one gently into the ocean.“ Why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?,” he asks. “Because the sun is up and the tide is going out and if I don’t throw them further in they will die.” “But, old man, don’t you realize there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it! You can’t possibly save them all, you can’t even save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you work all day, your efforts won’t make any difference at all.” The old man listened calmly and then bent down to pick up another starfish and threw it into the sea. “It made a difference to that one.”


That's how you make a difference by adopting pets, not by buying them. Buying pets would be the equivalent of putting even more starfish on the beach.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

And for the record I would spend as much hours as possible putting all the starfish in the water too.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I don't see it that way. 

To me, it's no different than the people of Switzerland helping as many Jews as they could. They couldn't help everyone, but _they could help some_. 

I don't think anyone believed that refusing to support the Nazi's or cutting off trade relations with Germany was going to help the people in concentration camps.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> I don't see it that way. To me, it's no different than the people of Switzerland helping as many Jews as they could. They couldn't help everyone, but _they could help some_. I don't think anyone believed that refusing to support the Nazi's or cutting off trade relations with Germany was going to help the people in concentration camps.


OMG I can't believe you think it is the same thing, not even close! Would helping a Jew encourage the production of more baby jews in camps or anywhere else for that matter like it does in pet mills? Nope.


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## cookiebear<3 (Aug 2, 2013)

The mantra that I repeat to myself is that if you take every deserving, loving animal you see there is no possible way you could properly take care of them the way you want to take care of them.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'd still rather make _a difference in the lives _of the rats.They can't help where they were born. 

Children are born as crack addicts everyday and grow up addicted to crack in an environment that fosters addiction. The sad reality is that even though kids had no choice in born as an addict, and grew up in that environment through no choice of their own, they will still be judged as a person who has less worth. 

Are we going to turn away the kid because if we don't, their crack head mom will just keep having more kids?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If a rabbit breeder sells some of his rabbits as pets instead of food is he really likely to breed more rabbits? Not likely. And if a rabbit breeder were to sell all of his rabbits as pets instead of food, would that actually be a bad thing for the rabbits? No.

Your logic is somehow intended to punish people for breeding pet animal instead of food animals... which it won't... and I'm not certain that's what you want to do anyway... instead it just gets innocent animals killed. 

Puppy mills need people to adopt their dogs as pets, that's why not adopting from them might shut them down. Rabbit and rat breeders are raising food animals and the scenario is entirely different. And the whole puppy argument doesn't apply to rabbits or rats bred as food animals.

Think about this... If no on adopts pigs or cows as pets does that mean the pork and cattle industry is going to collapse? 

Gribouilli, you just have got to be too smart for this... Some well meaning people got confused and created the fantasy that if we don't rescue commercial animals rat mills and pet stores will go away... It's a nice pipe dream and it gets innocent animals killed. Think about it... I've never adopted a single pig and yet bacon is still everywhere. And my scenario is way closer to feeder breeders than puppy mills to pet shops. Just think about it. I actually lived on a farm that raised pigs, and no one ever adopted one as a pet... and the farm was there for three hundred years and it ran at full capacity anyway. If someone wanted a piglet as a pet... I'm kind of under the impression that the farmer would have given him one... no charge... just for a laugh and the novelty of the idea.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

cookiebear<3 said:


> The mantra that I repeat to myself is that if you take every deserving, loving animal you see there is no possible way you could properly take care of them the way you want to take care of them.


Yes, I agree with you 100% and that is why I don't look at Craigslist, go to pet stores, shelters or known dumping grounds looking for animals to save. However, that is no guarantee that I won't be confronted with a helpless animal. When I am, and if I can help one animal by taking it out of a horrible situation, I will. Regardless of where it happened to be born.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

To me the real tragedy here is when a new member posts an apology for where they found their new love. When they post three paragraphs of why they adopted from a pet store before they feel it safe to ask for information about care and feeding their new love. I don't mind supporting breeders and rescues. I will suggest that breeders and rescues may have better socialized rats, but I will not ever demonize an adopter or their new love for its pet store pedigree. And if for some reason I find it appropriate, I will find my new love in a pet store, CL, or wherever I find it. I won't apologize. I don't think any new member, old member or anyone else who is big-hearted enough to love rats should ever have to apologize for finding love. I don't see the world quite the way you do Gribouilli, and I never will. I choose to support rat lovers and their new loves and help them in any way I can without demeaning them for where their love came from.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

raindear said:


> To me the real tragedy here is when a new member posts an apology for where they found their new love. When they post three paragraphs of why they adopted from a pet store before they feel it safe to ask for information about care and feeding their new love. I don't mind supporting breeders and rescues. I will suggest that breeders and rescues may have better socialized rats, but I will not ever demonize an adopter or their new love for its pet store pedigree. And if for some reason I find it appropriate, I will find my new love in a pet store, CL, or wherever I find it. I won't apologize. I don't think any new member, old member or anyone else who is big-hearted enough to love rats should ever have to apologize for finding love. I don't see the world quite the way you do Gribouilli, and I never will. I choose to support rat lovers and their new loves and help them in any way I can without demeaning them for where their love came from.


.........or the rat.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Absolutely Catty Ratty...Or the rat.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Would helping a Jew encourage the production of more baby jews in camps or anywhere else for that matter like it does in pet mills?


No, the Jews in concentration camps were probably too malnourished to have a kid anyway, and that's not my point either.

My point is that helping one Jewish family wouldn't not have done a single thing to stop the Nazi's from putting more people in camps. I don't think that helping one rat is going to stop the rat mills from producing more food. 

If you're going to go after something, why don't you go after the people who are the real reason rat mills exist? Go after the people who have snakes, the ones who are providing the demand the rat mills? That is who the rat mills are breeding for. The demand for rats is complimentary to the demand for snakes. If people didn't have snakes that eat rats, the mill owners would have no incentive to breed. They would be throwing away money they could put into some other business venture that would result in a return on their investment. 

Go after snake owners! Punish them, not the poor rat that had no choice about where it was born.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Well, my low-life feeder rat, who had no choice where she would be born, is demanding some attention from me now. Even though I do enjoy friendly debate, I'm going to enjoy her love and mischievious antics. Since she has such a high risk of mortality at a young age, I better enjoy her while I can.

Without feeling one bit of guilt.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Gribouilli said:


> OMG I can't believe you think it is the same thing, not even close! Would helping a Jew encourage the production of more baby jews in camps or anywhere else for that matter like it does in pet mills? Nope.


I'm thinking you should have thought this one through before you posted it... I don't think you are intentionally comparing Jews to rat mill rats are you? In light of what you said about rat mill rats in your other posts I'm thinking it's late or you've had a few too many Mel Gibson cocktails... Back-peddle rapidly... before the wrong person reads this and takes you seriously. I don't necessarily always agree with you, but no one should have to live down this kind of brain fart.

And if you meant to imply that saving one Jew would only make room for another one in the camp.... For gawd's sake don't go there!!!! Please.


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## Toxicat (Jan 18, 2015)

I cant. My boyfriend has to accompany me to the pet store and tell me no. Fortunately, rats are the only animals I have this problem with and my nearest pet store doesn't have them very often.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> I'd still rather make _a difference in the lives _of the rats.They can't help where they were born. Children are born as crack addicts everyday and grow up addicted to crack in an environment that fosters addiction. The sad reality is that even though kids had no choice in born as an addict, and grew up in that environment through no choice of their own, they will still be judged as a person who has less worth. Are we going to turn away the kid because if we don't, their crack head mom will just keep having more kids?


You should enter a competition of the worst possible example that has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hand. You will win each time.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm thinking you should have thought this one through before you posted it... I don't think you are intentionally comparing Jews to rat mill rats are you? In light of what you said about rat mill rats in your other posts I'm thinking it's late or you've had a few too many Mel Gibson cocktails... Back-peddle rapidly... before the wrong person reads this and takes you seriously. I don't necessarily always agree with you, but no one should have to live down this kind of brain fart.And if you meant to imply that saving one Jew would only make room for another one in the camp.... For gawd's sake don't go there!!!! Please.


I wasn't comparing Jews to rats or rat mills, catty-ratty was. Hence why I said her example had nothing to do with rat mills, not even close. Whoa.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> If a rabbit breeder sells some of his rabbits as pets instead of food is he really likely to breed more rabbits? Not likely. And if a rabbit breeder were to sell all of his rabbits as pets instead of food, would that actually be a bad thing for the rabbits? No.Your logic is somehow intended to punish people for breeding pet animal instead of food animals... which it won't... and I'm not certain that's what you want to do anyway... instead it just gets innocent animals killed. Puppy mills need people to adopt their dogs as pets, that's why not adopting from them might shut them down. Rabbit and rat breeders are raising food animals and the scenario is entirely different. And the whole puppy argument doesn't apply to rabbits or rats bred as food animals.Think about this... If no on adopts pigs or cows as pets does that mean the pork and cattle industry is going to collapse? Gribouilli, you just have got to be too smart for this... Some well meaning people got confused and created the fantasy that if we don't rescue commercial animals rat mills and pet stores will go away... It's a nice pipe dream and it gets innocent animals killed. Think about it... I've never adopted a single pig and yet bacon is still everywhere. And my scenario is way closer to feeder breeders than puppy mills to pet shops. Just think about it. I actually lived on a farm that raised pigs, and no one ever adopted one as a pet... and the farm was there for three hundred years and it ran at full capacity anyway. If someone wanted a piglet as a pet... I'm kind of under the impression that the farmer would have given him one... no charge... just for a laugh and the novelty of the idea.


Go say that to people who rescue puppies from puppy mills. I want to see their faces when you say that non-sense to them. The only animals they rescue are those that are surrendered free to them or at pet auctions when the puppy mill is closing his business.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

raindear said:


> To me the real tragedy here is when a new member posts an apology for where they found their new love. When they post three paragraphs of why they adopted from a pet store before they feel it safe to ask for information about care and feeding their new love. I don't mind supporting breeders and rescues. I will suggest that breeders and rescues may have better socialized rats, but I will not ever demonize an adopter or their new love for its pet store pedigree. And if for some reason I find it appropriate, I will find my new love in a pet store, CL, or wherever I find it. I won't apologize. I don't think any new member, old member or anyone else who is big-hearted enough to love rats should ever have to apologize for finding love. I don't see the world quite the way you do Gribouilli, and I never will. I choose to support rat lovers and their new loves and help them in any way I can without demeaning them for where their love came from.


I never refused to help anyone who had a rat from a pet store, never attacked them for doing it either. Show me 1 post where I refused to help someone or treated him/her badly for getting a pet at a pet store. There are over 2000 examples (posts) of that on RatForum that say otherwise.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> Well, my low-life feeder rat, who had no choice where she would be born, is demanding some attention from me now. Even though I do enjoy friendly debate, I'm going to enjoy her love and mischievious antics. Since she has such a high risk of mortality at a young age, I better enjoy her while I can.Without feeling one bit of guilt.


No one called your rat a low-life but you.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And I'm thinking if you start selling puppy mill puppies to alligator farms to keep them away from good forever homes, you are't going to have a lot of friends among dog lovers of any kind. And I don't think any of them would be laughing when you told them feeding rat mill rats to snakes is better than seeing them adopted to good forever homes, so the same has to be true for puppies....


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

No one is ever going to sell puppy mill puppies to alligator farms. And no one ever said that feeding rats to snakes was better either. Actually catty-ratty might have some competition with you- I cannot quite decide which of you guys has the worst possible examples and ideas about reality. Or maybe I have unintentionally stepped on the RatForum of a parallel universe again where words have different meaning and reality is upside down. Oh well, it was fun. And thank for apologizing for saying I compared Jews to rats while in fact it was catty-ratty (sarcasm here).


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually I believe Catty-Ratty is concerned for the welfare of all rats and loves them all equally, so no, I don't think she would intentionally insult anyone by comparing her beloved rats to them. But if you stick by your remarks (which I quoted in their entirety and in the context of the same thread)... well it's your choice, I was just trying to help you. There's no reason to get so defensive. No one is attacking you here.

Otherwise, if you are saying that feeding puppies to alligators is wrong and almost saying that it's better if rat mill rats go to good forever homes than to be fed to snakes... then just maybe you are actually half way there... C'mon, take the leap... admit that all rats deserve good forever homes and people who adopt rats from anywhere are good and caring people... You can still promote hobby breeders without bashing commercial rats and the people who love them...

I admire your commitment to an argument that's devoid of reason, logic and compassion, but once you see the light... the world will look right-side-up to you again.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm pretty confident that most people got it. Now you are insulting me by calling me unreasonable, illogical, and indifferent to animal suffering. That is really rich and I thank you for the laughs. Maybe one day the light will come to me and instead of giving thousands of dollars a year to animal rescues, I will buy 1,000 feeders at Petco instead- fingers crossed.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, I was saying I believe you to be smarter than to stick with an position that's devoid of reason, logic and compassion. Somewhere along the line you most likely drank the Kool-Aid that some really confused person gave you without really thinking about it. And you have most likely been reciting the evil commercial rat mantra for so long you even believe it yourself. Even when you know that not adopting a pig is not going to bring down the entire pork industry or not adopting a pet rat is going to close down a rat mill...

And not everybody here has thousands of dollars to donate to anyone for anything, maybe some folks here have to struggle to adopt a rat and to care for it and to take it to the vet... And maybe saving one rat is just the very best they can do... 

And no, you're passionate and can turn a phrase well... it would be nice to have more people like you on the right side of history... welcoming more people to our community and supporting homes for more rats and working on a cause we can all be proud of together... 

We're not insulting you... we're trying to help you.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm all for rescuing rats but not if you can't look after it properly. Buying a lone rat, puting it a small cage with low quality food and no proper care when it gets sick is hardly rescuing it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

Well he said some people have to 'struggle', which isn't the same as not being able. You can be struggling, but you can still be giving a great home with good food and a good cage and making vet care work.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Fu-Inle

You are absolutely correct rats deserve good forever homes where they are properly cared for. I meant that some people do struggle to take proper care of their rats. There are a lot of rat owners that have gone into debt or taken food off of their dinner tables to do right by their rats... that's what I meant by struggle. 

And finding good forever homes for 1000 feeder rats doesn't sound like the worst idea I've ever heard. It sounds a lot like a rescue mission and I can think of a lot of worse uses for that money. Also, I imagine it would be a lot harder than just donating some money to a charity. In what world would that be a bad thing?


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> If someone in rabbit rescue for over 15 years tells me that giving money to an animal abuser only encourage that person to breed more animals, I will believe her.


I prefer to think for myself, investigate and form an opinion based on what I learned.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> That's how you make a difference by adopting pets, not by buying them. Buying pets would be the equivalent of putting even more starfish on the beach.


Most people generally think of adoption as something you need for an animal that needs a home because someone else decided that they didn't want it anymore, couldn't keep it anymore or was taken from a horrible situation.

I think it's very contradictory, and even more ridiculous for someone to claim that they are *buying* a rat if they get it from a pet store or rat mill, but they are *adopting* a rat if they get it from a breeder. Money is exchanged either way. Because a responsible breeder will not breed if there is not some degree of certainty that those rats will get a good home.

Buy rat at a pet store or rat mill that needs a good home, but has little chance of getting one.
Adopt rat that is nearly guaranteed to get a good home.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> You should enter a competition of the worst possible example that has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hand. You will win each time.


You know what Grib, you are the only person I've on the entire forum that resorts to personal insults. It's one thing to debate differences of opinion, but when personal insults start getting thrown around, it gives an impression of immaturity.

Neither I, or anyone else around here as resorted to personal insults. I see other people here who share your opinion, they state their opinion and move on. It's apparently not imperative for to them to convince everyone that they have the _right opinion_. None of them are resulting to sarcasm and personal insults. Maybe they complain about us and our opinions privately, but they are otherwise not attacking us for what we believe. 

You seem to be the only one who seems to take advantage of every opportunity to present your opinion in an aggressive manner. If anyone states their own opinion that is different from yours, you can't just respect that we have a different opinion and point of view. 

I respect your knowledge of rat care. You have helped me care for my own rats. I use to enjoy reading your posts and the exchanges of humor. Now, it's hard for me to look past the beating you always seem determined to give everyone else around here.

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm only stating why I have my opinion. Why can't we just agree to disagree? Why does it have to such a big deal?

I came to this forum to learn more about my rats, meet and get to know other people who have rats.

I'm not so naive as to believe that there could possibly be a utopian forum. When large numbers of people gather, there can't help but be dissenting opinions, but that's all they are... opinions. 

You can help rats the way you need to. Let me help the way I need to. We can help each other on the points we agree on.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

Puppies in the US are bred as pets, period. They are not bred for any other reason or purpose. If people see that the cute puppies they got from a pet store can't be house broken, or have behavioral issues and demand that they be offered better pets, the puppy mills and breeders have to comply or go out of business, because there is no other market for their goods. That is an economic fact. If this were a country where dogs were bred as food, the outcome may be somewhat different.

Rabbits and rats are bred as pets, but also as food. Rabbits and rats that aren't purchased to be pets can be sold in other markets. The incentive to change their practices is not the same as with puppy breeders. If people stopped getting rats from pet stores in attempt to close down rat mills, this is what I think would happen. The mills would get fewer orders, but not by much. The surplus at first would be frozen for the F/T market, then when that outlet was fulfilled all surplus rats for each month would be killed. Then those dead animals would be sold to rendering plants or the like, because the mills would still have to operate and to operate at a profit. Production would not change by any appreciable amount because as long as there are snake hobbyists there will be an ongoing market for rats of all sizes and the need is going to continue. I do not believe attacking the snake hobbyist is a good idea, because any foothold the animal activists can use against any pet or companion animal can be used against all pet and companion animals. The most we can hope for in this regard is the humane treatment of the meat animals in the same way as we are lobbying for humane treatment of other meat animals.

Now the other affects this boycott of buying pet rats from feeder outlets would be: fewer new rat owners learning the joys of pet rats, fewer new members of forums and groups to advocate for and introduce the joys of pet rats, fewer sales of products necessary for the care of pet rats. 

The bigger and more influential the rat community becomes and the more educated we are, the more we will be able to advocate for good breeders of pet quality rats. With more education, more people will understand that paying more for well-bred socialized rats is a good way to go, and the more likely it will be for people to find good quality breeders and not have to resort to feeder rats for their pets. But the way to get here is to support every new rat owner, to enlarge our community and educate it and help it to grow.

Every rat that is taken from the feeder bin to be a loved companion is rescued from a gruesome death.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Fraido said:


> Well he said some people have to 'struggle', which isn't the same as not being able. You can be struggling, but you can still be giving a great home with good food and a good cage and making vet care work.


One year in college, every single thing that could possible go wrong DID! I couldn't buy cat food! 

So I put an ad on Craigslist:

'Will Work for Cat Food'

Most people thought I was joking. I did get cat food though. Thankfully, things finally starting working out soon after that!


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

catty-ratty said:


> Fraido said:
> 
> 
> > Well he said some people have to 'struggle', which isn't the same as not being able. You can be struggling, but you can still be giving a great home with good food and a good cage and making vet care work.
> ...


My point! You can struggle but still manage!


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Gribouilli said:


> I never refused to help anyone who had a rat from a pet store, never attacked them for doing it either. Show me 1 post where I refused to help someone or treated him/her badly for getting a pet at a pet store. There are over 2000 examples (posts) of that on RatForum that say otherwise.


The only thing I said to or about you is that we don't see things the same way.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

I'm just going to weigh in with one brief thought and then I will hop back out of here.. 

I used to live near one of the top Netherland Dwarf breeders in the USA. He didn't sell pet rabbits. He sold rabbits to other rabbit breeders and kids in 4H. The rest of those Netherland Dwarfs went to a meat processing plant and got turned into gourmet dog food. The reason? He used to say all the time, "there's no such thing as a good pet home." Back then, it was pretty much true. Rabbits lived in small outdoor hutches in isolation and once the novelty wore off they were lucky to even get fed and have the water bottle filled. 

I had a heck of a time finding good pet homes for my rabbits, it was easy to find good breeder homes and good 4H homes, but, good pet homes were rare. I sold to one pet store, keep in mind this was the 90's and the internet wasn't really a thing yet.. lol If I was raising rabbits today, I wouldn't sell them through a pet store. But, back then, we had a bunch of not great pet stores around us and one good one. The one good one sent people home with a correctly sized cage. They actually had me help pick the cage they would stock and recommend. It had a nice deep pan, a low door with a ramp to make it easy to let them roam and it was easy to clean. They would sell a rabbit only with an appropriate cage, hay, food, and other supplies. But, they were one of the very few pet stores I've ever seen that did that sort of thing. Again, this was the 90's, requiring more appropriate housing is sort of a recent thing in pet stores. 

Back in the 90's, you had breeder classified ads, animal shows/expos, animal shelters and pet stores. That's where you looked if you wanted a pet. 

Of all those options, pet stores have always been the place where the least informed purchased their pets. Sure, all of the other options got some of those losers too, but, the heaviest concentration was the pet store crowd. We never had a rabbit someone bought from a breeder brought to the shelter, they were all rabbits from pet stores, many with chronic conditions. 

The only pets who got it worse than pet store pets were the 'free to good home' pets. 

Now, obviously there are exceptions. There are plenty of people here who bought their pets at pet stores and are decent pet owners. But, understand that you are a rarity and that most of those other pets do not get the same caliber of care. In fact, I would say that many would have been better off as feeders. 

I would be totally cool if the pet stores all closed tomorrow. I drove three hours roundtrip for my rats. I drove 28 hours roundtrip to adopt a dog. It would be wonderful if tomorrow everyone had to actually put in some effort to acquire a pet. It would be great to not be able to plunk down $10 and be responsible for an animal you know nothing about at a random stop on your way home from the optometrist. It would be great if all the responsible breeders, rescues and shelters had waiting lists. Can you imagine if people actually had to plan ahead and wait a couple months for a new pet? 

When I was a kid/teen, my town had 6 pet stores. Now, it has ONE that sells pets and two that sell supplies only. You have to drive fifteen minutes to get to a Petco, 12 minutes to a Pet Supermarket and 34 minutes to the next independent pet store. 

This has brought a huge improvement in animal welfare around here. That is why the local animal shelter doesn't have ANY rats, rabbits, hamsters, guinea pigs or snakes right now. There is only one person trying to rehome rats on my local craigslist and it is a hobby breeder. There is one person selling rabbits on Craigslist within a half hour of me and that person has an oops litter from accidentally ending up with a male and female instead of two males. There is only one person trying to rehome a guinea pig near me, again, another oops litter. There was one person with gerbils, but, they were gone before I could get them, the ad is still up though, from a month or so ago when I hadn't settled on rats yet. 

When I was a teen, there were TONS of those ads. Less availability has just resulted in better homes for the ones that are here. It's much easier to rehome an oops litter here because we don't have 6 pet stores anymore. When people actually have to set an appointment, talk about their setup and drive out of their way to get a pet, you end up weeding out the very worst of the pet owners. 


So, no, I'm not going to call pet store rats rubbish. Feeder rats have a place and there are plenty of decent feeder breeders out there just like there are some awesome show/meat rabbit breeders out there. But, it's one thing to support those people and to support a pet store that will give anyone a pet for $10. 

The only reason I try not to buy them at the local pet store is because I would really prefer that the local pet store didn't exist anymore. The less pet stores there are selling pets the better it is for pets in general. If you do want to save a rat from a feeder bin, I would try to go cut out the middleman and go right to the feeder breeder to avoid supporting the pet store. Unless of course, you are one of those people lucky enough to actually have a responsible pet store near you. We've had a couple good ones here over the years. They don't last, because, well, when you're actually being ethical about it you can't make enough money to keep the doors open.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Oops, forgot to stay on topic. 
"How do you turn away?"

It gets easier as you get older. You make mistakes and learn from them and try to avoid repeating them.. 

When it was just spouse and I, it sounded like a good idea to have 6 cats and 3 dogs and tarantulas and rabbits and gerbils and a tortoise. But, then 2008 happened and we both lost our warehouse jobs and ended up moving across the country for the only job I could find at the time. So, we filled two cars with all of our pets and used our last $500 to drive to a relatives house with one of the only jobs I could find. 

It would have been a LOT easier with less pets. We kept everyone through losing our jobs, losing my house, finding new jobs, getting a new home, a surprise pregnancy and some tricky health conditions. It was rough. 

We've been comfortable again for several years now, we'll never make the mistake of both working at the same place again. It's too easy to lose everything if that place closes. 

The other thing I'll never do again is have a lot of pets. I still love them all dearly, and with the exception of my recently departed collie mix, there's not a one of them I could point to and say that he/she's the one who pushed us over the limit of what was comfortable. 

We lost our oldest cat last week, he died lying outside in the sunshine. He hadn't been sick or slower than usual. He was 17. I'm sad he's gone, but, relieved he went peacefully without a vet bill mountain or some really hard emotional decision. Now we have 3 cats, all at least ten and probably closer to 12, and a semiferal who is probably only a couple years old. I have two 14 year old dogs. 

I still haven't told my daughter. He loved to visit the neighbor who was retired and home all the time and had a cat door. We're still pretending he's there. She already lost her gerbil and our dog in the last couple months. I just can't tell her but, I know I have to. 

Pet's have costs. Even when you can afford the financial ones, the emotional ones are there too. It's hard to watch my blind dog who can't play fetch anymore do his best to get around the yard. It's hard to know that my other dog has started doing the incontinent urine dribble. It's hard even on good days just knowing that their time is about up. 

My goal is to be able to evacuate in the event of an emergency and have my pets and family all fit in one car. We could almost do that now, but it would be pretty uncomfortable. 

We couldn't get an apartment when we lost my house because our pets were too large and too many. We had to rent in shady places. I don't think I'll ever get more dogs and cats where we'd have to go through that again. 

So, yeah, most of us know not to get more pets if things are going badly for us but we lack the ability to see how these pets will work out if something does go wrong in the future. 

Unless you own your home free and clear, it makes sense to own only the pets you'd be allowed to have if you had to move into an apartment or in with family tomorrow.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Jenniferinfl,

Wow... that story is just a little bit sad, but it's very insightful... everyone really should think about what will happen to their pets when things go wrong. It's easy to leave behind a sofa that won't fit into the U-haul, but not so much a beloved furry family member.


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