# Botched Neuter or Just Fat?



## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

As some of you know, I was dealing with being given four rats by a "friend" who I was having trouble bonding and dealing with since my alpha gal Myrtle was having trouble accepting the older females into the group. Well, not only are all the girls doing fine, but my financial situation stabilized and I was able to get the boys fixed. It was a rough recovery for one of them. In fact he still isn't 100% and since I've recently found out the two of them are nearly a year and half (!) I'm not sure he ever will be. The vet said wait at least ten days to begin introductions to the ladies, so I waited two weeks (14 days) and, somewhat annoyingly, things went fine. Myrtle apparently only cares to beat up other females xD....Well fast forward about two months and Myrtle has ballooned and I honestly can't remember how long it's been since she first met the boys. My instinct is to say it's been over a month, but I'd have to take a peek at the paperwork for their neuter to be sure. I wasn't particularly worried as all of them seem to have plumped a bit for winter except that one not so active male, but my god is she fat. She's literally bigger around than the bigger of the two males and twice the size of the other females. Granted, she's the matriarch so to speak, but my food is Oxbow and they don't exactly gobble it up if you know what I mean.....I've checked the boys every day since their surgery and there's nothing left but wrinkly skin as far as their parts go. I've palpated her tummy and I can't really feel anything except maybe in one spot, but I'm not sure. She seems a little less active and I'm kind of considering another vet visit at this point (just had a mite outbreak in the house that they've been treated for). She's not terrorizing the other females like I'd expect a pregnant, hormonal Myrtle to. She's not any less in love with her hobby of licking my hand and trying to claw her way into my mouth, just slower and quieter. Almost always in their box in the floor...and huge.....I'm not too flustered about this one. I have the money and the time now if she is pregnant. If not, even better. Maybe I just subconsciously want Christmas babies  (disclaimer: I don't really want Christmas babies that'd be chaos and besides she's an old gal at a year). I don't know. What do you guys think? Does she look pregnant or just fat? Pictures aren't great because she was so wiggly, heheh. Is it worth it prepping a birthing cage in case?


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

For clarification, it has been almost two months. I went downstairs and checked the paperwork in the middle of writing this message (hence the inconsistentencies). They were neutered on October 13th along with three of my mother's sugar gliders.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

If it's been two months then I wouldn't think she is pregnant. She might just be big. I've had females who were bigger than my males before. I've also had very big males. All of my boys are neutered, and I waited two weeks before introducing them to any females. I've never had an issue.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

in rare cases you can get retained sperm and even delayed implantation, but that really is rare. 2 weeks is sufficient in the vast majority of cases, studies have shown 10 days is about right, but in reality as they've just had surgery its worth giving it the 2 weeks to both be safe and ensure there healed up. Its commonly used. 

I'd give the boys a good feel over to make sure there testicles were actually removed. This may seem basic, but I did once meet a boy whose owner had had neutered and there was one testicle still very much present.

I would get her along to the vet to be checked out, she does look large enough to be pregnant and as the chances of her being pregnant are very slim unless the boys weren't properly neutered then the fast weight gain would worry me. They can get phantom pregnancies but these tend to happen on first being in with a male (even neutered) and aren't that common (also typically only last 19 days from the incedent rather than the 22-24 of normal pregnancy). The real worry though is she has something like closed pyo. I've seen this in a rat once who looked heavily pregnant, she had a massive internal infection and didn't survive the emergency spay.


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## RatEmporiumToronto (Jun 10, 2015)

She looks 100% pregnant to me and if she is not pregnant then you definitely would want to get her tummy checked for any belly issues! Judging from her size you should know within 1-5 days (even today aha who knows) if she is pregnant, one of your males could still be "active" and it is always possible, not likely but possible, to cohabitat females and males for a month without the females getting pregnant immediately.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Well there ya go, confirmation. Just checked both males and the one I never would've thought capable of even mounting a female still has a little, round lump in there. He's currently in with seven females...seven. Only one of them is under a year old and one has cancer. Myrtle is the only one who's super fat, but most of the girls plumped for what I'm now hoping was winter. Time to set up a birthing cage and call the vet. Grrrrrrr!


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## RatEmporiumToronto (Jun 10, 2015)

Eeek! That's a lot of lady friends for one lil man ahaha Good luck with everything!  expecting updates hehe


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Well, called the vet I had them neutered with to ask about Tweedle being seen and they kinda hurriedly brushed me off with we have nothing open before 11 after I told them the latest I could do was 9am because of work. I called around to another vet who's closer who I originally was going to neuter them with. they will see him on Monday to confirm or deny if his neuter is good. I'm a wee be it stressed out over how many babies are potentially coming if the little lump I felt was what I hope it's not, but also worried about the possibility of putting him through another surgery. There's a good chance he and his brother will live seperate if he doesn't perk up after our mites are supposed to be gone. I swear between the rats and my dog's recurring head cyst, I live at the vet. *facepalm* at least three of the girls don't look any/much fatter. I'm seriously hoping it's just a tissue lump and not cancer and not a testicle, but we shall see.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

A small lump could well be an area of scar tissue or left over infection rather than a testicle (lets hope).

You do have an option if it is a testicle of using cabergoloin to treat all the girls for a week. It acts as an effective pregnancy terminator, though I wouldn't use it on a doe that was very close to popping (like the girl in the photo might be)


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Jeez I hope so. The vet will hopefully be able to tell me on Monday. In the meantime Myrtle is a bit fatter. Her and one of her original cage mates (Sophie) are the two fattest so far and the only two who've got fur missing around their nipples like when they go into heat. I read that they groom them before they give birth so I deprecated those two into a birthing cage last night. I also bought several big Tupperware containers to make better birthing cages, three for now, four more coming Monday off Amazon just in case. Was going to just get two 4 packs of the 106qt stet elite, but I'm not sure the two of them can wait the weekend, Myrtle especially, and I didn't want them birthing together in such a small cage (my hospital cage). So 4 of Amazon and 3 105qt sterelite from Wally World as well as a buttload of fleece to line the bottoms and enough food bowls and water bottles that each tub can have one. I'm planning on visiting the dollar store after work today for little baskets I can turn upside down and put nest material in. Hopefully the two of them can hold it in until I can get home tonight and patch some hardware cloth to the sides of the storage bins and set them up. Any suggestions on nesting material? Should I put wheels in there too or no?


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Set up three of my seven birthing tubs yesterday with Myrtle by herself and the others in two groups of three. I'm also taking this time to litter box train everyone. The boys have litterboxes in the cage too and the girls are definitely using them.  Not perfectly, but using them. On Monday the other four tubs come, by Wednesday the other litterboxes, so everyone will have their own private condo (or at least the ones close to popping) while still being able to see each other during out of cage time. My only gripe is that some of the girls chew zip ties like its candy. Mostly solved that with some tape. But one of them (*ahem* Sophie) likes to chew that too. Little farts. Also weighed them today. Myrtle is 496 grams! The closest one is Sophie at 398 grams. If she ain't pregnant, then Miss Myrtle is one heavy lady xD


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## jlhummel (Oct 23, 2014)

Possible solution to the ziptie chewing...the hardware store might have some metal ties like what secures washing machine hoses and the like. I've used those to secure things to the cage a few times.

Also, are there any humane societies or rescues nearby? Maybe they would know some volunteers who could help you with all the babies and line up homes for them when they're ready. I'm part of a Facebook group called Rat Rehoming and Transportation we are all over the country.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

In terms of nesting material, I offer bits of torn up kitchen roll and safe bed, I also use shredded cardboard as substrate so they mainly make there next in this. I would expect your lovely neat cage to get very much uprouted if any are pregnant, though they can leave nest building to after they give birth too. I probably wouldn't used fleece as its not the best for nesting in, can you get hold of something like aspen or carefresh (not that I like that stuff, too dusty generally) as it will let them construct more and be more absorbent. Babies stink quickly so you want to use something that will let you last a week post birth before the first clean out. Also avoid any soft wood shavings or pellets, they are particularly harmful to babies.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

At the vets right now. The lump I felt in Tweedle is an abscess not a leftover testicle. The girls can go back in with their sweethearts. Now I'm confused on why Myrtle is so incredibly fat. I'm going to ask the vet about options on bringing her in and such or not and if it would be worth it when she comes back.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

The vet said it's quite possible he had remnants that were producing that led to an abcess, so to leave Myrtle out for a week and see and if nothing happens bring her in to get checked. She said just watch the others to see if they get fatter.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Gah! Myrtle chewed her way out of the Tupperware this morning. Not by eating the zip ties, but by chewing the plastic on the edge I cut. I woke up to her sitting on top of Melody's cage staring at me like, "Hi, Mom!" The family Christmas shopping trip was today, so I had to put her back in with the others for the day (everyone else was back in the regular cage now that the vet said no way could Tweedle currently make babies). No guarantee she wouldn't chew out of one of the other storage bin cages I made while I was gone today. I checked her when I got home a few minutes ago and there was some blood on the side of her bum at the base of her tail. Freaking out, I checked and there's no bite, nothing actually come out of her hoohah. The others are all fine, but her lower belly (the little ponch in the pictures between her back legs) is very hard and it wasn't before. I put her in an uncut bin with holes bored in the lid for the night and double checked the other cage and cage tray. No babies left in there. What's up with her? Is she about to give birth? Is she infected? She doesn't seem to be in pain... This little lady is making me want to tear my hair out this week.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Have you asked about pyometria or other uterus infections? At this point, I'm hoping she's pregnant, because that would be a HUGE build up of infection to cause that big of a belly if she isn't pregnant.. plus blood is never a good thing down there. When my girl had bleeding from her vulva, I got her an emergency spay right away and the vet thought it wasn't pyo (because it was pure blood, not mixed with pus at all) and thought it was probaly mycoplasma causing it. But either way, it's good that she got the spay. 

She also had a very large belly most of her life. I always assumed it was because of her megacolon. But near the end of her life, when she was 2 years and 4 months old, she had to be put to sleep from kidney failure. The vet said the bloated belly might have been a sign of kidney issues and fluid retention. She also started losing muscle mass. So even though she was a chubby little girl with a big belly, I could feel her spine and bones along her back. That was another big sign (amongst others) that made the vet think it was kidney.

Does your girl have any of these symptoms? Either way, if there's blood down there on her, she should REALLY go see a vet. I hope your boy really was properly neutered though, or you'll have a lot of whoops babies coming soon! I've been following this thread since you posted, what a bizarre situation! I hope it all works out in the end.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Definitely can't feel her spine. She felt mostly like a giant pillow until last night when that little lower ponch between her legs got harder. There appears to be no blood actually coming from her at this point, but she's been cleaning down there. No babies yet, but she's actually built a sloppy nest now (she is legit the worst best builder of the whole group...her sisters build nests like crazy right now and she'll just lay wherever), so we'll see if she has any babies today/tonight. Her nipple reeeeaaaally stick out now. They're not just missing fur around them, but the actual nipple is poking out now. Tomorrow is our week deadline the vet gave us before were supposed to call so they can see her. I'm wishing I'd just brought her in now, but I hadn't wanted to stress her if she was close to popping. My only consolation is two of my other females are starting to look seriously puffy. I may need to call Mainely Rat Rescue to help me rehome babies if half of them end up popping. I'm also hoping she's pregnant at this point, but my god that's going to be a lot of babies if he was actually producing for a short while. 0.0


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Checked her again and she's spotting! Super restless. Gah! I feel like a chicken with my head cut off running into a wall I'm so anxious.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

No babies yet. She's still bleeding. Sorry if I spam you guys with updates, I'm just really worried about her. She seems to have rearranged her best again since I last checked her.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Still no babies. Now I'm worried. I've also checked out the girls. One more is bleeding from her vagina and a third isn't bleeding, but has poking out nipples like the other two. Those two are now in uncut bins as well with food, water, and nesting material. The other four have poking out nipples or bleeding nor are they as fat as these three, but Parker (my hairless) has skin fused over her vagina. I know she has one. I can see it under the nearly translucent skin and I had to double check her a few times when she was younger because as anyone with a hairless female knows, their buts hang out more and look almost like small balls. Melody has the same thing (patchwork hairless I just got). What the actual heck is up with my girls? What do I do here? Do I try to find a vet that's open? I've read spotting can happen as much as a day before birth, but I've also read rats 10 months and older have the most trouble. Myrtle is 14 months, Sophie is 12 and Lumen is 9. The two who are bleeding aren't even bleeding on the bedding yet, so it's not a lot, but I am soooooo worried.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

STILL no babies. Myrtle and Sophie appear to have stopped bleeding as well. We'll see what happens overnight. I work early tomorrow, so I'll be calling the vet when I get out unless we have babies.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

I think we might finally be having contractions! Myrtle and Sophie have their tails cocked up. Lots of stretching on Sophie's part. Myrtle isn't moving much except to flinch every few minutes. She seems very uncomfortable and only perks up when I talk to her.  We need some happy thoughts over here.


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## Ratloved (Oct 4, 2015)

Anything new?


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## Ratloved (Oct 4, 2015)

Lol nvm, I saw this was posted yesterday, and I didn't look at the time. I had no idea it was after twelve. At times I am such a ditz. Sorry. I am just also anxious for you! 😬


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Don't worry, my brain is fried too. I have to get up in four hours for work and no way am I getting to sleep anytime soon.


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## Ratloved (Oct 4, 2015)

I am so sorry! I would also be a nervous wreck. You have a lot going on right now. And you were one trying to do things the right way. You are a good rat mom! Keep us informed. Hopefully you are still young and one night of no sleep won't do too much damage. Lol


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Quarter of a century, so it won't kill me and one of my coworkers has already volunteered to go in, in the morning for me if I need it (not because of this, she just wants more hours), so I'm okay if they need to be rushed to the vet.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

No babies :/ Myrtle is actually moving around a bit and no longer bleeding actively, though she does have dried blood still around the opening. Sophie is actively bleeding again and seems a bit smaller. With luck, she is simply absorbing them back again


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

If they are reabsorbing (likely if it's 25 days or more post mating) then put them on a precautionary course of antibiotics, amoxycillin or baytril aren't bad. You need to be careful as pups can decompose inside them and cause infection. In a week or two they should be back to normal size.

If they are still bleeding or there's a lot of blood then get them to the e-vet asap for an emergency spay as babies could be stuck and this does kill rats


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

I have no idea what day it is in their pregnancies since I didn't even suspect the weight gain was pregnancy before this. Fingers crossed for a successful reabsorbtion though. We have a vet visit scheduled for tomorrow morning and X-rays to see are already planned (literally the first time I will have let a vet take X-rays before...only time it's ever been necessary). It was the earliest I could get in. Myrtle seems to have stopped bleeding altogether and has cleaned off the blood that was there this morning. She seems more comfortable, but still isn't moving around much. Sophie has dried blood left, but there doesn't seem to be any fresh blood this evening. I'm. Not sure if she looks any smaller or if I'm just fooling myself. Myrtle doesn't seem smaller at all and she's rearranged her nest again so it snuggles around her. Im monitoring them tonight and will rush them into the emergency vet if I have to, but our last experience there was not a good one. Meanwhile Lumen (the third one who isn't bleeding yet) has definitely gotten bigger and her nipples have become even more pronounced. I'd say at this point we can say he likely was producing for a short while before developing an abbess, because I'm doubting this many girls in the same cage would get and infected uterus at the same time unless his infection infected them somehow... Fingers crossed for tomorrow!


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I wish you and your girls the best of luck. I will be thinking of you and sending you good wishes.


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## Ratloved (Oct 4, 2015)

Hi there! I have thought about you and your girls off and on all day, wondering if all was ok. Best of luck at the vets tomorrow. I truly hope all turns out well in the end. ☺ 😊


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Thank you everyone. Well, because I'm anxious and had nothing better to do, I took pictures of all the girls' bellies except Melody's (newest baby and hopefully too young to have come into heat at the petstore where she was housed with her brothers 0.0). I'm not sure if anyone except Lumen (himilayan) and Myrtle look pregnant. Sophie (black Rex) no longer looks like a house, just chubby. Katniss definitely isn't pregnant, the little skinny mini, but I figured I might as well do something with another sleepless night. Opinions? On a scale of I'm imagining it to I'm in deep doo doo, how pregnant do they look?


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Well if they do all have babies, it's definitely not your fault! You were very careful and got your boy neutered and waiting beyond the caution period. Just a very unfortunate incident. Try contacting different rat specific rescues in your state and surrounding states. Maybe they can help set up a rat train to rehome the loads of babies coming. So sorry this is happening to you!! I'm sorry if I scared you with suggesting the possiblity of pyo or kidney issues, but I always think it's better to be safe than sorry. If your girls are possibly reabsorbing, then follow what Isamu said. But either way, all your little ones are going to the vet tomorrow and get an xray (Ask if you can get an ultrasound instead, that way they don't need to be knocked out, which might not be too healthy for them and the possibly babies). 

It sounds a lot like pregnancies to me. Though I don't have much experience. I adopted my heart-rat Bijou (I have no idea how old she was, she looked like an adult) from a petshop and she had her babies less than a week later. The night before, she was very intent on nest building and I gave her plenty of paper shreds for her box. And then she had her babies at about 8am the next morning. She also looked like she swallowed a tennis ball and had pronounced nipples. She had 11 babies, 8 surviving. But that's the only experience I had. The blood you mentioned makes me nervous, I only saw blood during the birth. But everything else sounds like pregnancy. But since you're seeing the vet tomorrow and getting xrays or an ultrasound, you will know for sure if they're pregnant or not. Let us know what the vet says! I've been thinking alot about you and your girls too!

Just remember that girls can get pregnant again almost immediately after giving birth, so take your boy out if you find out any of them are actually preggo!

What state do you live in? I might be able to take some babies or help with transport!


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

The vet said verbatim that there's no way he's producing at the moment, so at least there's that. And thank you, but I live in Maine. That's a long drive  I'll ask them about an ultrasound instead when I get there. I don't even know if they have one, but it's worth a check. Neither of them are bleeding this morning, which makes me feel crazy (which my mother has already called me since they were supposedly fine when she check on them). The folks don't even want me to take them in, because they think it's silly for rats, but being twenty five with my own car and job does come with some privileges I suppose.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Almost done at the vets. Sophie has no babies in there, stomach looks normal. Myrtle has no babies either, no skeletons, but there is something in her uterine area pushing her gut up, and the vet can't tell what it is. We're going home with antibiotics. It's either possible that Tweedle was feeling neutered but not dead and ended up infecting them with his infection, or that they reabsorbed/are reabsorbing.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Here are our X-rays in case anyone's curious. As I said, you can't really see what's pushing up her intestines. It looks like there's nothing there, but everything is pushed way up compared to Sophie. They didn't have to put them under, which was nice. Only $40 a piece instead of the $200 my dogs' vet tries to charge me whenever they go in. I may have to use this vet for them too xD


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Could be a uterine mass or infection. Poor bubbers. If a male gets infected its all very external usually unless he was neutered abdominally not scrotally?

What antibiotics did they give you?


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

They went in through the scrotam, two incisions for him and he never seemed to quite recover from it and surpeise, surprise, he had an abcess inside the scrotam (his brother only had one incision). They didn't give me any pain meds or antibiotics I probably should've asked for them, but they specifically said beforehand they'd give me some if they felt the boys needed it. When I called back I was told to give him time and then he got a bit better, so I let it slide. For the girls this time I have Clavamox. Same thing they gave me for Tweedle's infection.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Any updates on your girls? How's the one doing with the bloated belly?


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Sophie is doing good. Myrtle is still bloated and started bleeding again this morning, so it's back to the vet we go for another X-ray and who knows what. Took a picture of it for the vet in case she's stopped again by the time we get there. No babies from anyone else (including little melody who was with her brothers at the petstore), so it looks like we're in the clear as far as babies go.


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

We just had an instance of bleeding with Willow. It is SO scary! Best wishes for a quick recovery. I hope its nothing serious.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Forget if I mentioned this earlier in this post, but we had a girl who had to have an emergency spay because of bleeding. Since it wasn't cloudy and no pus, the vet thinks it was caused by mycoplasma. Your girl also looks like she has just straight blood. Have you considered spaying her since it seems like she's having reoccurring problems with her uterus?

What did the vet say after this visit? Were the xrays helpful at all? I'm not sure what an xray could tell you unless there's a tumor.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Vet can't get us in until Monday. I'm going to talk to them about spaying, since I know they do spay. The only one of my girls I'm considering not having them spay is Rue, but simply because she's already been through surgery and is 10 months old already. Not sure if I want to put her through more surgery. It was nerve wracking enough in the first place. Should've had them spay her at the same time...


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Work forced me to change Myrtles appointment to Thursday... The bleeding has been pretty steady, no stop and start like last time. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried, but I'm watching for hwavy breathing and signs of lethargy. Is it Thursday yet? :/


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

If it is any consolation to you, Willow was bleeding pretty heavily but Baytril cleared it up. It was a UTI.


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Well, two nights ago, Myrtle started bleeding heavily at night and I caved and gave her some more of the clavamox since she started bleeding right after her 14 days were up. By morning she went from the hospital cage covered in blood to no bleeding. I've kept it up so far. Something tells me we have an infection going in there. She's also a lot less fat. I'm going to talk to the vet about spaying vs stronger antibiotics. Any thoughts?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Clavamox is very good against a wide range of infections (penicillin based) so a good choice for womb infections. However if it was pure blood rather than brownish or smelly blood then theyre could be something else going on and she's just passed a clot through so may build up for a while longer. I'd have a chat with your vet and see what she thinks. If you do the antibiotic route I would do baytril and Clavamox, baytril will cover genital myco, clavamox most other things it could be. Rats can get STD's for info.

How is she in herself? If she seems droppy, lethargic and unwell I would probably give the antibiotics a shot as its risky putting a very unwell rat with potential sceptacimia through the op, if she's bright and well I would probably have her spayed, unless she's a high risk rat for other reasons.

Final question, what variety is she? Some have an increased risk of bleeding / reduced ability to clot


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## MyrtlesMom (Oct 7, 2014)

Not sure on the type of clavamox, but she was bleeding before going on it. The vet now suspects open pyometra, aka bleeding and draining. We now have heavy duty baytril for the next three weeks and probably a spay afterwards to prevent reacurrences.


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