# HELP IM PANICKING!



## ChrissyGz0r

lulu had babies last night and they're all together all alive (from what i could see) i think (and hope) shes feeding them now... but twice! shes got one of them in to her mouth and ran out of the nest with it ... is this normal cus i keep getting really scared and i squuezed her neck till she let go .. not to hard but hard enough till she knew (i hope i didnt hurt her  ) i just didnt want her hurting the baby .. is this normal ... ive moved him/her back with other babys and shes laid with them now ... not sure what shes doing tho i will check in a few minutes. im panicking more than when i went into labour! lol 
i just hope shes not hurting them and shes feeding them! 
Please some1 reply A.S.A.P
xx


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## Emster

Do not interfere with the mother and her babies. Squeezing her neck isn't going to do anything. She knows what she is doing alot more than you do.

If she moves one from the nest, just gently pick it up and put it back next to the nest entrance if mum doesn't grab it back in then call her quietly until she pokes her head out and takes the bub back in.


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## ChrissyGz0r

she keeps leaving them she hasnt been with them since i posted that post saying she was with them... she keeps making another little nest for her and staying in it .. then i move babies to that nest and she makes another one


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## lilspaz68

1) Mom knows a helluva lot more than you do. DO NOT interfere.
2) If she had more than 12 babies she is shift-feeding...they will remove a few of the pups and feed them separately. Its how they make sure they feed them all. Leave the babies alone.
3) IF mom is found eating one its because it was ill or not-right, and it died. She will clean up the bodies so that predators don't find the rest of them...Natural instincts.
4) IF mom was going to hurt them (highly unlikely) YOU wouldn't be able to stop her from doing it eventually. Let nature take its course.
5) Mom's carry babies around by their heads/backs...thats normal too. She will step on them and make them squeak but they won't get hurt. 

You make sure she has a ton of the proper food in there for her, and leave your poor girlrat alone with her kids.

THEN you go research A LOT more on the care of baby rats and their mom.


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## Emster

Might I add, that it also doesn't help that your girl is still only a baby herself and MUCH to young to be a mother.


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## ChrissyGz0r

ok so ill just leave her then 
but might i add that shes just buried them .. they had her food bowl ontop of them and she was kicking bedding ontop of it and yuo cudnt even see the babies


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## ration1802

She will do whatever she feels she needs to. No amount of intefering will stop her from doing what she feels is right.

So just leave her be and leave her to what comes naturally to her


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## lilspaz68

She's hiding the babies. Normal yet again.
Start reading Chrissy!


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## ChrissyGz0r

she still hasnt gone near the babies shes just been sleeping for hours


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## ration1802

Unless you are prepared to hand raise each and every one of the litter (which will take an incredible amount of energy, effort and time, not to mention the fact it may not even work for babies so young and anyway may not even be necessary right now!), I suggest giving her some time and hope she goes back to the litter


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## ChrissyGz0r

the babies have been like 9 hours with out food! .. do u still want me to leave them ... she isnbt going near them at all! ... the only milk i have is baby formula


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## lilspaz68

how many babies, and have you looked for milk bands on their bellies? How old is your girl?


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## ChrissyGz0r

12 babies 
not sure how old she is
bout 5 months
theres sum white in there bellys but not much is that the milk band or summit else 
is this is in the pic


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## ration1802

I'm not the most experienced, but they look like milk bands to me.

Have you been watching her constantly for these 9 hours? Maybe you just need to give her a little peace and quiet? Maybe she's going to the babies when you're not watching???


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## Emster

You need to leave mum and the babies alone. You may be the reason why she seems to be neglecting the bubs as you keep on interwining and disturbing them.
Rats are very good mothers and rarely need human help.


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## lilspaz68

Those are milk bands. She's feeding them.

These are my Bronlings on day 2









The skin is very thin and translucent in the first few days after that the skin thickens and you won't be able to see the mild bands. Those babies look fine.

I would cover the cage with a towel and leave that momma alone for a day or so, beyond feeding her and making sure she has fresh water. 

Mom's will feed then go collapse away from them in between. Its tiring to give birth to 12 eepers.


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## ChrissyGz0r

so i just leave them then and hope for the best?
im just getting really worried thats all


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## ration1802

Yes. Leave them, hope for the best. Let nature take over. You should only need to "peep" every few hours - give her a long period between disturbing her. She's probably still adjusting to motherhood and doesn't need the human involvement complicating things right now


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## lilspaz68

Why are you worried? She's feeding them obviously, covering them up to stay warm (they can't regulate their own temp), all very normal things.

I would say stay away from her for awhile, get on the internet and start reading.

Here read this, you might learn something. Its my own experience with an oops litter. Unfortunately the forum had some issues recently and some of the pics aren't working, I can't be bothered to try puttin gthem back up yet. There's enough pics and info that it should keep your busy for while

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4010369.0


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## ChrissyGz0r

my friend came today and when we took the abies out they were really cold and we didnt see a milk band.
im dreading this week incase summit bad happens.
Once this weeks over and they're all alive and kicking i wont feel as worried


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## Rattiegma

You're probably stressing the **** out of her. Those are milk bands in that picture, and they look like good ones at that. So she's definitely feeding them. However at this age, if she isn't feeding them, you could hand feed them, but chances are they would all die, because they're so young. So leave her alone, and don't hover over the cage. At all. And I don't think baby formula works anyway, I'm pretty sure it needs to be kitten/puppy formula. But your girl is SO young, and she really may not be capable of taking care of them...which is why she shouldn't be with boys. But I suppose that's neither here nor there now.

Anyways I'm rambling. Just leave her alone and keep us updated. And remember, loud babies are generally healthy babies! You should definitely be able to hear them squeaking pretty much constantly.


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## rat_ratscal

the milk bands are looking good in the pic, remember, if you cant see the milk bands anymore the skin starts to thicken after a few days so that's most likely why, dont stress out momma by hovering, for her and the baby's sake, just leave her be and peek every couple of hours


we warned you bout this from the very start of it all...


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## ration1802

If you keep pulling them outta the **** cage you're just going to stress momma out more! The first few days are vital for the mum and babies to bond and establish routine. If you keep yanking them out the cage you're just going to confuse and worry her.

Just put her in a quite room and leave her alone. She'll do what she can with the babies, and if it doesn't work out as planned - well, that's nature.


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## ChrissyGz0r

that picture on the first page was took in the morning when i got up (after her having them at in middle of night or summit) .. i havent seen a milk band today nd they we're freezing when we touched them. 
but like i said once the weeks over and everyones alive and kicking i wont be worrying as much.
Its just like you said bout the first couple of days being important im just constantly worrying that she aint feeding them or keeping them warm as (like ive said ) i havent seen a milk band today and they we're cold.
just hope she lookies after them good


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## Rattiegma

It's fine if you worry. But leave them alone. We've all said it a hundred times. If you don't leave her alone, you're only making things worse.


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## Emster

If anything is going to happen to them, then it is. At the end of the day it's natures way.
Many people on here have warned you what could happen to the babies if you left your rats in mixed sexes, so you've got to be prepared for the worse. Your girl just may not be ready to be a mother, as I said before she's still only a baby herself.


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## lovinmyworm

I'm going to be really blunt here so take it or leave it. If your constantly reaching your hand in there, grabbing mom by the neck when she moves her babies, hovering around the cage, picking the babies up ect. then yeah prepare for your babies to die! Rats are secretive animals, your not giving her privacy and her making her nervous constantly with your hovering around them. How would you like to go to the restroom and have a giant (think the jolly green giant) come in and grab your neck while your doing it? Bet you would reconsider going back to the bathroom for awhile huh! LEAVE HER ALONE!!!! 

Do your rat, everyone on here, and me a favor..... feed mom enough food for an entire day, give her enough water for an entire day, make sure she has bedding, and don't go anywhere near the cage for 24 hours! Don't walk past it, cover it up, don't peek in, NOTHING! Then the next day take a quick look to make sure the bubs are alive, don't touch them and feed and water mom again then leave for another 24 hours. Repeat this until the babies are 8 days old. Then concern yourself with what has happend and what nature has done.


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## lilspaz68

I will add one more small thing to that delightful post. Put a towel over the cage to keep the warmth in and make it even more private.

My 11 week old girl I took in had 2 eepers she fed once, and then ignored. She was not ready to be a mom and the babies died. Sad but natural. I adopted her right after this incident so that she wouldn't have to go through this again in her present home.


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## ChrissyGz0r

all babies are dead... and 5 were half eaten


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## ration1802

That's nature I'm afraid.

She wasn't ready to be a mother.


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## ChrissyGz0r

its just last night when i had a little peak she was sat on them and they were alive and what not so i thought to myself she must be getting the hang of it now ill leave her alone and ill have a little peek in morning.. and she was still sat on them this morning (i didnt hear them but i thought they were asleep) so i left them again and just went to give mom sum more food and noticed them all dead.


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## rat_ratscal

im sorry about that but i agree with ration, next time keep your boys and girls separated and you can avoid the whole thing


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## lilspaz68

IF the babies had died, mom will "take care" of the bodies...its an instinct to get rid of the bodies before a predator is attracted. The eeping and wriggling of live babies actually MAKES a mother rat feed and take care of them. If the babies stop wriggling and eeping then she will have no compulsion to take care of them, and if they are dead she will eat them.

I am actually not surprised. Your wee momma was just too young, it happens.

Sorry for your loss, there would've been nothing you could do.


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## ChrissyGz0r

it just looked so horrible to see them all half eaten and stuff.
my dinner from 4 hours ago nearly came up.... i kinda wish i hadnt checked now and by the time i did check she had complety ate them so i didnt have to see it.
urrgh it was horrible.


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## begoodtoanimals

They also might have died because all of the disturbing. Mother rats, rabbits and mice often will kill their babies if they don't feel safe enough to raise them. 
I am afraid that it was not nature but human intervention here. Hope everyone learned from this; to trust the mother animal. We humans often think that we can do a better job than the animal mother.


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## ChrissyGz0r

no they died from starvation as she only fed them once... or on one day (as obviously i dont know how many times she fed them on the day they were born)
then she ate them cus they were dead.
she didnt kill them she just didnt know she was ment to feed them. as like everyone had said she was only a iccly babby herself.
if it was to do with disturbance every litter that had been posted on this forum wud be dead... as ive seen pictures of baby rats day by day meaning they have been disturbed to be took out ... right? or am i just completely wrong here


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## ration1802

Not usually from the day after birth, Chrissy. It's well known that you should usually leave the mother and babies alone for a couple of days to reduce stress to the mother and to let her recover.

And although I really don't want to point the finger, I think what begood was getting it was that the disturbing of her caused her to neglect the babies (which therefore lead to their starvation) I don't think many mother rats would take kindly to being squeezed around the neck for just wanting to move her babies, which is completely natural to her. Maybe it was the inteference, maybe it wasn't. No way to tell now


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## ChrissyGz0r

the rats were 3 days old so they went 2 days without food .. as she only fed them on day 1 as on day 2 and 3 they didnt have milk bands.

and like i think i said in the post when she had the rat in her mouth and was shaking it around it didnt seem normal to me but fine if it is well im sorry! 

Fair enough if she was just moving them but when shes shaking them like a dog with a chew toy its abit different dont ya think



> It's well known that you should usually leave the mother and babies alone for a couple of days to reduce stress to the mother and to let her recover


how come theres so many pictures on this forum of babies day to day starting with day one! 

and these are from the people who are ment to know what they're doing =S

and who tell me to start learning more about rats


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## ration1802

> shes got one of them in to her mouth and ran out of the nest with it


This is what you said. You didn't mention shaking at all.

You'll usually find that people who do hold a litter from that age have had prior experience with rat litters. So yes, they DO know what they're doing. You obviously are completely unexperienced with rat litters, therefore - as how many people have told you in this thread? - you should have just left them be.

It looks like everything was against this litter (mums age etc) and as it turns out, this has been a very sad ending. So let's not split hairs now, after the fact. It won't change anything that happened



> and who tell me to start learning more about rats


And there was absolutely no need for that. All any of us have done is try and help you using our experience and collective knowledge. If you don't like what I say, that's your problem, not mine I'm afraid


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## RoRo

ChrissyGz0r I hate to sound like a b*tch here, but you fought EVERY STEP OF ADVICE these people gave you. Always found an excuse. But when I looked they were cold, but when I looked mama was not with them, but when I looked, but when I looked.

And you kept moving the babies on mama. If I was a mom I'd give up to!

DUDE! Litters die, we have had plenty on here, but this site has had a good survival rate. The day by day pictures.

THEY TAKE EM ONCE DURNING THE DAY THEY DON"T KEEP BUGGING MAMA ALL FRIGGIN DAY LONG!

Your lady was young, young people do not make good mothers. Maybe the babies wern't healthy to begin with and mom was like OMG I do not want these things to suffer.

There are a million factors to be added in here on why the babies died

BUT STOP MAKING EXCUSES CRISSY, AND FIGHTING WHAT THESE HELPFUL PEOPLE ARE SAYING! They are not experts but some of these people have had mama rats.

(Takes her breath and gains her composure) Sorry but reading this just keep bugging me to no end


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## ChrissyGz0r

just have to say 


> young people do not make good mothers


isnt that ment to say rats?
and i never made excuses i was just telling you what was happening i why i did what i did. 
BECAUSE! you people told me to read so i did and when i read it said they weren't ment to be freezing cold when you touched them! and that they needed to be fed every two hours but went two days without food! 



> Quote:
> shes got one of them in to her mouth and ran out of the nest with it
> 
> This is what you said. You didn't mention shaking at all.


im sorry i thought i did mention it .. it must of been on a different forum or to some1 else but i rember telling someone about it cus it freaked me out!

and no i didnt ignore the advice ... i left them ... i just peeked and thats it and then posted when i was worried about something cus i when i peeked she wasnt with them or i couldnt see a milk band ect.. but then on day 3 when i got up she was lying on them so i left her to it and didnt check on them again till 9pm that day when i found them dead! 
so dont tell me i didnt listen to advice ... i listened knowing that they we're probs gonna die.. knowing that she wasnt looking after them but you just told me to leave them and didnt tell me anything i could do.. cus obviously leaving them didnt help anyway so that was just a waste of everyones posts


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## ChrissyGz0r

dont know where else i said it but i told my friend on msn
(09:35) (L)Mummy2Chloe(L) Ch:	she grabbed one in her mouth a min ago and starting swinging it round and i was like :| 
that was 23 March 2008


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## lilspaz68

ChrissyGz0r said:


> dont know where else i said it but i told my friend on msn
> (09:35) (L)Mummy2Chloe(L) Ch:	she grabbed one in her mouth a min ago and starting swinging it round and i was like :|
> that was 23 March 2008


Wow, telling your friend on MSN did not inform us did it?, why even post this after the fact? :roll: 

If I had a nervous young mama I would leave them alone too.

Bronwen was a sweet lovely girl when I got her, very calm and very trusting of me, she was proud of her litter and I went very slowly around her. Any other rat that was nervous I wouldn't have handled the babies right away, plus I never touched mom when she was near her pups those first few days unless I was taking her out of the cage. I would take pics in less than 5 mins, and back in the cage they would go, to not be disturbed for another 24 hours.

Sadly beyond labour emergencies you have to let Momma do her thing and let Nature take its course. We didn't tell you do anything beyond leaving her alone because there wasn't anything YOU could do. Leaving them alone was the best chance they had. And obviously it wasn't enough. I took in a young momma who had 2 eepers she fed once, I tried to save the newborns but its almost impossible to do, and the little fellas died.  The owner didnt' tell me about the situation until 10 hours had passed without them being stimulated to eliminate so the one feeding they got was now toxic milk in their bellies and killed them. These things are sad but they happen.
Most rats will not eat their young because of the scent of humans on their babies or being disturbed too often, but young mom's have a different mentality, they are confused so all your poking and grabbing might have confused her enough to ignore her litter and they starved to death.

It still surprises me that even after this fact you still _obviously_ haven't been reading up and trying to learn for your rat's sake.  We will not always be here to spoon feed basic info to you. What will you do in an emergency with your other rats?


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## ChrissyGz0r

if u had read my post before u wud of seen that i had read up thats how i knew that the rats weren't suppose to be freezing!!!!


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## ration1802

So put that reading to some good use in the future and let what's done lie


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## lovinmyworm

Honestly it was bound to happen. You did everything wrong. I'm not trying to be mean, but honestly everyone has told you what to do and yet you do the opposite! They said don't put the males and females together, you did. What did you expect to happen? Then you said your ex put them together while you were gone, ummm hello it takes almost a month for a momma rat to give birth therefore she was pregnant before you even switched the cages! You didn't do your research at all before purchasing the rats otherwise you would have just gotten one sex. Then when mom did have her litter again you did it wrong. You didn't leave her alone, you made an already nervous rat more nervous. No wonder she didn't nurse her babies! She was too young to be a mom and too nervous to even try to care for them! You were told to leave her alone several times, yet came back here to post about how they were doing constantly which means you didn't leave her alone until it was already too late! 

How about you just keep the boys and girls apart and avoid all of this in the future? Perhaps rats aren't the right pet for you considering you aren't well read on them and seem to have no clue about even the most basic of things.


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## ChrissyGz0r

omg wtf ... i said it was my ex who was putting the boys and girls together!!! the reason they were together was cus of him. and i couldnt say **** all else id get a f**cking beating! 
and then i said when i got back from my friends after having him arrested and staying at hers he had put them back together even after me telling him to keep them seperate! 
i left for college on the 12th and they were seperate! came bk after he was arrested and fed them they were seperate but he was staying in the house when he wasnt suppose to and he put them together to piss me off and when i came bk 1 and half later they were together! then she had the babies 1 half weeks later! ffs 



> You didn't do your research at all before purchasing the rats otherwise you would have just gotten one sex.


the reason we got two of the opposite sex is cus we was playing on getting two boys and two girls! and we had a seperate cage for fifi (2nd rat we got) but my ex kept putting her in with ronnie! 



> Then when mom did have her litter again you did it wrong. You didn't leave her alone, you made an already nervous rat more nervous. No wonder she didn't nurse her babies! She was too young to be a mom and too nervous to even try to care for them! You were told to leave her alone several times, yet came back here to post about how they were doing constantly which means you didn't leave her alone until it was already too late!


and i did f**cking leave her alone i was told to leave her and take a peek ect and thats what i did f**cking do!
I got them out twice out of the cage once on day one to check them and count and once again on day 2 to check if she had fed them and she hadnt! and thats when i felt they were freezing!! and me and my friend were trying to think how to keep them warm as obviously lulu wasnt doing it! 

thats it cant even be botherd wasting my time writing anything else cus everything i say u find a way to make it wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if i said the sky was blue you'd argue with me!


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## twilight

.....

Pointing fingers and getting all worked up isn't going solve anything. Take all of this as a learning experience. Lock your cages if you have to, but just make sure no one can ever put the different genders together ever again.


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## RoRo

Amen Twilight


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## ChrissyGz0r

omg im gonna scream!
ok so yea like i said (in either this post or the grr one ) i hope the other girls aint pregnant .. well cus **** all i want happens and everything goes wrong they are ... and as fifi's belly looked bigger compared to pancakes i put her in the other cage (as i only have one at the minute) thinking shes gonna have the babies first but boy was i wrong! woke up this morning to find a massive nest in the big class tank thingy and there were the babies.. didnt open the lid or even go close enough to count or anything i just saw her cleaning them and sitting on them .. so hopefully feeding them. its just bloody typical that i put fifi in her own cage and pancakes has the babies first! 

so yea anyway i took fifi out and left pancakes in with lulu (momma of the litter that died) ... i mean shud i leave her in there? obviously i aint gonna take the momma and babies out ... or will lulu be fine in there with other rattie? cus obviously like i said i dont have another cage at the minute 
is there summit else i cud put lulu in for the time being till i manage to get one?


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## ChrissyGz0r

omg *breathes* fifis just had her babies aswell


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## melon

have you tried looking on the ad trader website?? there`s always people selling cages really cheap and sometimes giving them away, even if it was a good sized hamster cage just to keep lulu away from the others while they`re nursing.


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## ChrissyGz0r

well at the minute shes in the cage with them and shes staying away shes sleeping in her little blue thing lol ... and pancakes is in the nest with her litter and has only come out once for like 2 mins to get sum food .. i even sprinkled sum in the opening of the nest so she didnt have to come up and she sniffed it and ran back to the litter ... but when i took a peek in fifis cage she was eating one so obviously it was dead or ill .. but pancakes has fed her litter cus i saw a milk band when i peeked earlier but i just peeked on fifis and i cant see one but im gonna leave them now anway .. im going out so they're gonna have peace .. i just hoppe fifi dont let me down 

also as im leaving them .. when will be the best time to take them out and count and check them .. i aint gonna touch them today or anything .. just i wud like to see how many each has and check they're all ok ect but dont wanna put momma's off or do anything that will make them abanden them


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## Rattiegma

Whatever you do, the mom's both need to be alone with their babies. So Fifi needs her own cage, and so does Pancakes. Which means Lulu will need to be alone as well in her own cage. This is imperative, ok? Look at this website for suggestions for a temporary cage. You need to do this ASAP. http://www.dapper.com.au/articles.htm#cage


And I would say that considering what just happened with Lulu, aside from feeding moms and giving fresh water, stay as far away from the cage as possible, until you can move them to their own cages. Then when they're in the nursery cages, leave them alone.


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## lovinmyworm

here we go again.....  poor rats.


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## Rattiegma

lovinmyworm said:


> here we go again.....  poor rats.



I know, I've been stressing and they're not even my rats!


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## HylaW

Good Luck with the new litters. Where are you located?


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## RoRo

PEOPLE at least she has got the no bugging the rat constantly part. Give her some credit. She couldn't be poking mama constantly. I didn't check the links but did anyone post a link of making a cage out of a cheap storage bin?

Good luck, and PLEASE adhere to the advice here and you'll get through this. And remember regardless -censor- happens, all you can do is hope for the better.


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## Rattiegma

Yes, I posted a link to how to make that cage. And we have given her credit. But can you blame us for being frustrated with the fact that we begged her to seperate her boys and girls and she said "they're my rats I can do what I want." We're not trying to rub it in her face, but it's hard and quite upsetting because all of this could have easily been prevented, but she decided it was worth the risk to see those "cute little baby rats."


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## Emster

Rattiegma said:


> Yes, I posted a link to how to make that cage. And we have given her credit. But can you blame us for being frustrated with the fact that we begged her to seperate her boys and girls and she said "they're my rats I can do what I want." We're not trying to rub it in her face, but it's hard and quite upsetting because all of this could have easily been prevented, but she decided it was worth the risk to see those "cute little baby rats."


She's a silly little girl who doesn't listen to people's advice.

Also there is no need for swearing, it isn't clever and doesn't get you anywhere (That isn't aimed at you Rattiegma by the way  ). You can't blame people here for having a go at you and telling you what you need to hear.
I hope all this learns you a lesson and you seperate your rats and keep them in SAME sex groups.

(I'll just sit here and wait for your reply full of F*** this and F*** that)


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## RoRo

::coughs:: My ears are burning, all the profanity -censored- this.

And okay you posted that hee hee, that's why I asked did? ::goes back to feeding her rat stir fry with chop sticks::


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## ChrissyGz0r

there u go again keep saying about me putting my boys with my girls... how many times do i have to say it wasnt me doing it!


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## Vixie

ChrissyGz0r said:


> how many times do i have to say it wasnt me doing it!


Well whoever it was doing it should not be allowed near the rats anymore, plain and simple!
Now drop that whole thing and focus on taking proper care of the new litter.


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## Rattiegma

Chrissy, the point isn't who put them together, or who didn't. Either way, they were together. And just for some clarity, this is an exact quote from your "Meet My Rat" post. 

"at the minute they are all in together cus they all cuddle up and its soo cute..we dont mind if any of the girls get pregnant lol .. but they have been together for a while and havent .. we aint trying to breed them or anything we just let them stay together and if they do they do .. obviously if theres signs of rat being pregnant males will come out! just so shes safe but till then we're leaving them be! although i did take ronnie out earlier for harrassing fifi

i would love loads of rat babies!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

That is why we keep saying you wouldn't listen.

But that is neither here nor there, because what's done is done.


So can we get back on topic like Vixie said? How are both moms and litters doing now?


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## ChrissyGz0r

they're doing good  both laid with babies just had a little peek when i got up ... fifi scared me abit tho cus she wasnt moving and her head was burried but she was asleep ha i thought it was only human babies that like to play dead.. yea anyway back on topic they're both laid with they're litters and ill have a little peek later to look for milk bands (wont go into cage ill do it when i put food in for mums (probs be chloes left over wheetabix as shes hardly eating!) they had all her baby food jar last night cus she didnt touch it and they loved it  obviously lulu and the boys had sum too  

obviously i cant say if all litter has made it from day 1 as i havent counted them but when i took a peek yesterday morning fifi was eating one like i said  but since then i dont know .. i think im gonna leave them be all week and count them at the end of week (it should be ok then shouldnt it?) 
by then they should have some marks shudnt they? (cant remember need to look at pictures) 

cant wait to see pancakes litter as im pretty sure she has some rex in (she has curlyish coat and curly whiskers....) and shes a berk so gonna be a good litter a think .. plus ronnie (or pip) are hoodeds so gonna be a colourful litter i think ... 

but im really surprised at pancakes how much of a good mums shes been cus shes the yongest and at first she was doing the best i mean she was the first to feed hers and fifi didnt feed hers for a few hours (no milk band) so i was abit worried bout fifi but i think shes doing ok ... like i said shes still laid with them so thats a good sign .. i mean lulu wanted nothing to do with them! 

but as soon as they both get some food they run back to the litter and sit on them  

ive already got some homes for the ratties all ready ... my mates mum wants a couple then my mate (not the mums daughter lol) wants 1 or 2 and im gonna keep some  

but putting a downer on it .. thats if they all survive put im positive about it this time as mums are doing good ... if we pass day 3 that will be better as its when lulus litter died


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## ChrissyGz0r

oh and also with the cage im just gonna get a small cheap cage for lulu to go in cus i really dont wanna disturb pancakes and shes built an awesome nest! but if u think i shud move them and put them in own cage i will and kep lulu in big cage?


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## ChrissyGz0r

ok update
just had a little peek in fifis cage when she was munching and from what i could see (not to good at counting unless its 1 by 1 lol) theres 15 or 16 maybe more in her litter  (Didnt touch babies dont worry!) 

but in the glass tank pancakes is in i dont have a clue cus shes done the nest so good i cant see eff all lol

i would have to move all the nest and get babies out which i aint doing!


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## HylaW

Sounds good.

You should move lulu out into a small cage soon.


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## lovinmyworm

Just to clariffy, who's in what cage with who? They basically all need seperated. Mom's and babies need their own cage and privacy with no other rats, boy rat in a different cage all together because momma rats can get pregnant right after birth. Basically you need to have them in 4 seperate cages right now! If you don't you risk one rat killing another rats babies or one of your rats getting pregnant again (which you know how well that went the last time).


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## ChrissyGz0r

right the boys have they're own cage always have done ... fifi is in her own cage (with her litter) and pancakes is in big cage/tank with her litter (at the bottom with a massive nest around her) and lulu is at top of big cage/tank in her blue sleepy thingy majjihgy. 

i spoke to a rat breeder who also works part time at pet shop and she said its fine for lulu to stay in with pancakes as long as i keep an eye on her and play with her so she dusnt get lonely and try go to pancakes and the babies (cus pancakes cus go for her ect) so im using this time as a bonding thingy for me and lulu  

she also told me that you aint suppose to handle the babies rats till they have fur and their eyes are open


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## Gobo

if lulu and pancake are in a big cage together is there anyway you can make some sort of temporary divider between the two? that way if you need to leave for something and cant take lulu out with you you can put the divider in so you know she cant go bother pancake


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## closer

You can actually hold the babies 1 day after there born but it depends on how the mom rats are with you because you don't want the moms taking a chunk out of you Lol


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## CaptainFlow

If experienced, it's generally okay to hold them one day old. But since this is your first time, and your mothers are all quite young, I would leave them for five to seven days. Letting it wait until their eyes are open sounds like a long time, and by then you will have lost a lot of potential to bring out the very best in people-acceptance in the babies. If you get them used to being handled while they still can't see, they're likely to be that much more trusting as they grow.


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## ChrissyGz0r

lol pancake has done that her self she has pushed all the saw dust to the side shes in and the only way of getting in is thru the tunnel cardboard pipe thingy and if lulu even tries to go thru it pancakes is like grr lol


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## Rattiegma

A divider would be a good idea, though, unless you plan on sitting by the cage all day and night. Even the sweetest rats can become very snappy and territorial with new babies in the cage. If Pancakes is protecting her litter like that, which is good news, and Lulu tries to come around, Pancakes could very well attack her. That could end up in Lulu, Pancakes, or both of them being badly hurt, as well as a chance a baby could get caught in the fight. So you may want to try to find something to seperate the top of the cage from the bottom, and keep Lulu up top with her own food and water, unless you can find a temp cage for Lulu.


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## ChrissyGz0r

ok i will try find something to use or get a new cage 2moz


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## rat_ratscal

have oyu got a new cage? how are the mommas and bubs doing today?


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## ChrissyGz0r

nope not yet havent had time didnt finish college yesterday till 4:30 and by the time i picked chloe up all the shops were closed and thers no pet shops where my college is anyway so i would of need to come home and gone into town which obviously wouldnt of happend cus it was like like 20 past 5... shops close as half past .. and id have to get into town which would take 20 mins lol 

but ill try get into town today .. but all babies are good found that out last night when i woke up for a drink and they were all squeaking really loud lol

got scared yesterday when i looked in glass tank with pancakes in cus i couldnt see babies anywhere and i couldnt hear them i was like nooo (cus it was day 3 lulus litter died)... but while she was eating i moved a little bit of the massive! nest and they were there lmao she had proper hid them but yea ill update later when i get home gotta get ready for college else ill be late LOL


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## ChrissyGz0r

the rats have markings 
from what i can see in fifis litter there are hoodeds and the rest have none =/ 
but in pancakes litter there are hoodeds and a berk/self (cant tell cus only saw a dark back ) and thats all i could see at the min obviously when they're abit older i can start taking pics ect  
but im sooo proud of the mummies


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## RoRo

congratulations. I see why not to take pictures, just take em out ONCE a day and not to long. It was stated some where ealier, but if mom stresses just leave em be cause you no wanna get bit. Bribe mom out of the nest with food. Once a day isn't bad. It's how we get pics on here  gives you a time to meet the babies to GOOD LUCK AND GOOD JOB


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## ChrissyGz0r

im gonna need to clean them out soon .. what do i do with babies? where do i put them? .. also do i get rid of all bedding and nest or do i leave a bit in for the familiar scent?


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## Emster

ChrissyGz0r said:


> im gonna need to clean them out soon .. what do i do with babies? where do i put them? .. also do i get rid of all bedding and nest or do i leave a bit in for the familiar scent?


You must not touch the nest for at the very least the first week!
If you need to clean them out, then clean the area AROUND the nest, DO NOT remove the actual nest or dis-mantle it. Therefore you won't have to touch the babies and need somewhere to put them.


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## Fuzzie

don't you guys think it's time for the rittens to be socialized? The first few days are good to be with mom, but it's time they meet some humans.


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## Emster

I didn't say that she couldn't handle the bubs, just that she shouldn't remove the nest at all, it'd just add more stress to mum as she'd have to build a new one as well as look after her babies.


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## ChrissyGz0r

Ok and whats with all the DO NOT's ect .. im pretty sure it says in the rules u aint allowed to do that.

but anyway back on topic im gonna be putting fifi in a different cage as the one shes in at the minute the tray aint very deep so when shes builing her nest most of it goes on floor so im gonna either get a deeper tray thing for her or summit else and put lulu in her cage ... 

i think most of fifis litter are PEWs


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## ChrissyGz0r

oh and also i hoover out the cages and i cant do that with the babies in can i?!? ...


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## RoRo

I'm assuming by hoover you mean vacume, I would say not, the noise, and the chances of sucking out a baby is to great. You don't want ot cause stress. 

And yes it's okay to handle the bubs, they need to be socialized about this age other wise they no be used to you when their older. Just lure mama away.  Your doing fine.

Just remeber do not distroy the nest, I forgot who said it, but mama will have no were to put the babies and she'll be :-( sad.


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## ChrissyGz0r

can i not just put fresh bedding in for a fresh nest cus i read somewhere you had to change it anyway :S 

so what should i do with babies while im hoovering? ... just put them somewhere safe on t.towel or summit?

cus i mean with fifis cage thats fine i can just empty it in the bin but with the glass tank it weighs a ton and has shelf things so its hard to poor that in a bin bag lol so i just hoover it .. have to empty hoover like 5 times while im doing it tho


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## rat_ratscal

clean out the parts around the nest if you must, just leave the nest. that would be sorta like if someone cleaned your room and stole your bed  you're doing great, and i want pictures soon!


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## melon

maybe use a small dustpan to scoop the tank out then pour it into a bin bag, that`s what i tend to do for my cage since it`s so large. at least that way you can clean out the tank without disturbing the nest.


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## ChrissyGz0r

lol i see what ur saying about disturbing the nest ... but fifis nest is gonna be disturbed anyway cus shes going in a new nursery cage thing i brought today 

with pancakes nest its just wood chip thingy lol not actually any bedding type stuff like the paper stuff u get in a bag (not actually paper but looks like shredded paper lol) so would i be all right to just remove all the sawdust and put some actual bedding stuff in to keep babies warm and lots of sawdust? cus i noticed earlier that pancakes litter are just laying on the glass at bottom of tank so thier bums must be cold hehe


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## lovinmyworm

Why not just get fifi's nest and move it to the new cage. It will be a little disturbed, not not totally distroyed! I would leave pancakes next alone, but give mom some already shredded paper or other bedding. Then she has the option to modify it if she wants.


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## ChrissyGz0r

right but i read somewhere that u had to change the nest bedding anyway after the give birth so it aint bloody ect .. but i didnt do that cus i didnt wanna touch them ... but ill do what u said and just move the nest over even tho its coverd in blood and poo lol 

so i dont clean pancakes cage out.. but shes in a glass thingy? and it needs cleaning but the sawdust is the nest... so to clean it i have to remove the saw dust :S .. im confused


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## lovinmyworm

Ok, move Fifi's nest to the new cage. Give her lots of new bedding and let her decide if she wants to use the old nest or the new nest. Give her options ya know. She knows what is best for her babies. If she has the time an engery she can build a new nest, if not she can keep the old one and focus on raising her babies. If your worried you can get the poop and bloody stuff out of there, but try to leave it for the most part intact. Taking care of babies is hard work let alone building a new home while your doing it! 

As for pancakes cage I don't like the idea of the babies sleeping on sawdust, sounds like it's going to breed a big ole URI! Dismantle that nest and give mom alot of new bedding. Also I'd put an igloo or something in the cage, load it with soft bedding and put the babies in there. Maybe she will use that instead of a nest. It might also save her some energy building a new nest. 

As for new bedding, see if you can get ahold of some carefresh, yesterday's news, ect. then add some big scraps of fleece fabric, old rags shredded up, paper towels, ect already shredded (save mom some work) I bet they would use the soft bedding and stuff for the nest more and it will also keep the babies warmer!


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## ChrissyGz0r

yea ok ill do that ... will be 2moz now tho as im really really really ill and tired 
gonna put sum of fifis nest in new nest and then clean out all of pancakes cage.. put lulu in her own cage (the one fifis in now) .... fill pancakes with the same amount of sawdust i usually do plus put in some shredded paper ect 

you know with the shredded paper ... does it have to be plain paper without writing on ect cus with the ink and stuff ? or dusnt it matter .. 

like i said i have the shredded bedding thing in a packet anyway so i might mix shredded paper with the bagged stuff


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## lovinmyworm

If your destroying her nest can you at least put something in there for her to not totally panic when she see's the nest is gone. A little igloo, a tupperware bowl with a hole cut out of it and sawdust on top so it's nice and dark, something so she feels her babies are safe? As for the paper it can be whatever you want, but honestly I'd go for newspaper just because it has some cotton fibers in it and isn't as rough. Also some shredded paper towels, toilet paper, something softer than saw dust and regular paper. You wouldn't want to put a newborn infant on sawdust and shredded copy paper would ya? I still don't like the idea of sawdust! What kind of sawdust are you using? If it isn't aspen your asking or an upper respiratory problem and with that many rats that's ALOT of vet bills!


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## ChrissyGz0r

ive just looked at the packet and it doesnt actually say it just says....

Pet bedding 
Wood shavings 
dust extracted to create a healthier enviroment for your pets 

then says
ideal bedding for rabbits guinea pigs hamsters gerbils and other small pets .... i hate how they never have rats on these things they're always like gerbils hamsters blah blah but never rats GRR 

http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/invt/0056237 < its that one... is it ok...
i dont think even says on there what it is =/ 

what ya think?

also how do you know if momma isnt feeding babies now as they're is no milk band .. its just whenever i look pancakes is never with her babies... 
like you said i think it might be lulu... so i wanna get her out as soon as possible ... 
but its one thing after another at this place... cus i got the cage thingy yesterday and the idiots in the shop forgot to take the security tag thing off (im surprised alarm didnt go off) and i spent most of yesterday tryin to use wire cutters to get it off even broke my scissors trying lol its like loads of litter wires but all together i mean u can seperate the little wires ... i just dont know how to get it off


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## ledzepgirl16

Chrissy, I just checked that link out, and I would say probably not on the bedding. A lot of companies use vague terms like "good for small pets" and "dust extracted." Lovinmyword is right, if you'd like to use shavings, the only way to go is Aspen. You can tell if it's aspen because it will usually say "kiln dried" or "kiln baked." "Extracting the dust" may help a little, but ultimately the aromatic oils in softwoods are toxic and will eventually get your ratties very ill. Aspen uses the kiln process to take out dust, and it's made from hardwood. I use aspen and I like it a lot. It's even the same price as cedar (makes you wonder why they still sell it).


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## ChrissyGz0r

i dont know anywhere that sells it :S 
not sure just put it into google and no petshops i know came up


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## lovinmyworm

Go to your local petshop and ask to see their litters that aren't wood based. You will likely find something that is like carefresh (which is kind of a cotton like bedding) or yesterdays news (which is just recycles newspaper and papers). If you can't find them go to your local fabric store or someplace that sells fleece and purchase some fleece fabric. Doesn't matter how ugly it is, doesn't matter how cheap it is. The rats WILL chew it up and put holes in it, but it's actually really cheap. Alot of times fabric stores sell their leftover pieces from big bolts of fabric for cheap. Walmart around here and JoAnn fabrics sell big chunks of fleece for under $1. Those chunks are big enough to line the bottom of your cages with! I can generally make 3 or 4 hammocks and line one shelf for $1. Plus fleece is so much easier to clean up. Just take it out, toss it in your washing machine and replace. You will save money in the long run with this if you can't find any good litter in your area.


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## Emster

ChrissyGz0r said:


> Ok and whats with all the DO NOT's ect .. im pretty sure it says in the rules u aint allowed to do that.


To get it into your head.

Also sawdust is rubbish for rats, I dread to think what's happening to those bubs lungs.
I use Pets At Home's safe paper bedding. Not that you'll listen to that advice.

EDIT - Pets At Home also sell Carefresh.


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## lilspaz68

I had my oops litter on fleece, paper towels and carefresh at times, until they were about 2 weeks old then they went onto quality aspen shavings. That bedding looks like pine (does it have a nice scent?) and its really dusty which goes right into little lungs.

Chrissy, normally things happen a little differently with most litters but since you seem to go overboard and over-do things we are reining you in, girl, to give your litters the best chance they have. You can start handling them properly just before 2 weeks old and they will be fine. 

I would move the babies into tupperware with fleece (and put a layer over them to keep them warmer). then I would clean out the aquarium. Do not use _that_ bedding, put down fleece and paper towels so she can make her nest, a hidey home (even a small box is fine, as long as she can stretch out and nurse her babies).

Same with all of them, get them off that bedding, it could cause future health problems with their lungs and organs.

Don't worry about her feeding them. She either will or she won't. Most times they feed for awhile then take a long break,(up to 2 hours or more) then they feed again.


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## ration1802

Chrissy, you can get Bio-Catolet (which is recycled paper pellets) or if you want to buy online you can ger Yesterday's News (http://www.companionschoice.co.uk - search for yesterdays news)

I use Bio-Catolet (it's pretty much cat litter) and it's relatively cheap GOOD bedding (although you may find it expensive compared to the sawdust). You can get it from Sainsbury's and Asda and quite a few pet shops

Edited : Lilspaz posted before me  But if you prefer litter over fleece, the above is a good choice


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## zoo_mom76

just read this whole thread and i am EXHAUSTED lol
good luck chrissy-post some pics and listen to these folks-they know their stuff! and please understand-everyone cares about your ratties and just wants them to be healthy and happy-reading about rats being stressed makes rat people a bit tense! lol


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## Learna

Man, I know what you mean zoo mom, it is exhausting! 
Lol, but anyway, sounds like you're doing alright chrissy despite your first episode.
Some people can get really forceful on here but that just comes with knowledge and passion, they really don't mean to upset. (I know how you feel though, I've been in that situation where people get crazy at you, but thank god it wasn;t to do with animals, lol) 
It's upsetting when people you don't even know growl you but the things they're saying (the HELPFUL things) are really the only things you need to pay attention to. Just need to forgive and forget really.
Good luck with the litters, looking forward to pics^_^


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## scarlet

Wow, after sitting here reading all this, to me it seems simpler to have gerbils pups!(which I've had before) Lol. Rats have SO MANY babies! Gawd! 14-15 in alitter?! Thats alot! Lol. Glad I have two boys.


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## ChrissyGz0r

pics are in the thread BABIES!!!!! fifi and pancakes litter


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## zoo_mom76

i found them after and they are quite cute! my daughters BEGGED me for a girl rattie, to which i laughed...maybe someday we'll add a girl cage but for now i am quite content with my 2 handsome boys!
but good luck with all the babies! very sweet!


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## ChrissyGz0r

update: all ratty eyes are open  
mums doing good and babies
they've started crawling about now properly and following mum haha so cute 
ill post pictures later oh wait actually i dont have memory card for my cam yet so ill have to do it when it comes .. cud be 3 -5 days tho  
you will have to wait! haha  
ill update when i can 
been busy with everything thats happening but ill post pics asap 
x


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## Emster

How are the babies breathing? Have you taken them to see a vet yet?
From that video you posted, they desperately need to see one.


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