# Steve ate her pups



## Devon

Hey, 

I just purchased a new addition to my little pack. I picked up an adult female which I have introduced to my other 3 females I currently have. Intro was a bit quick (Pet store gave me bit different advise then what I read here) but my new girl seems to be extremely shy around my other 3.

I currently have a Deluxe Care home (55 high/17/30), my original 3 stay close to bottom venturing up and down every now and then, my new girl hides in a hut almost at the top of the cage and I haven't seen her come out for a couple days. I placed a treat bowl on top of her hut to get the other 3 to come up and around her from time to time but nothing seems to be working. Any suggestions?


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy*

Ugh, you should have researched beforehand and quarantined her first  Now you know for the future. It's not good to just drop the rats in together and see what happens. After all the hardship of being shipped, put in a pet store, mauled by children, kept in bad conditions, and then dropped in a new home with other rats, there is a chance that your new girl could be attacked or scared so bad that it makes it even more stressful and difficult to get them together.

If she's not scared of the others, then it's probably best to just leave her how she is now, but if she runs and hides, cowers in the corner, gets upset when they get near her, etc. it would be good to pretend that you never put her in with them in the first place and start introductions normally, or even at step 2, in a neutral territory such as the bathtub, and then returning her to a separate cage.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy*

Well mixed news....

Good news, our new one is in a cage alone and making good progress not the most sociable but definitely warming up.

Bad news. And I feel real stupid.

Pet store told me he was she. Now he was only in the cage for a short period of time but where I have the 3 females from what read so far worst case I could me looking at up to 66 pups. which wouldn't flyover so well with me living in an apartment.

Well time will tell, and fingers crossed. Luckily me and my fiancée used to have fish so, we have a 40 and 20 gallon if its the worse, and we'll be ready for them. Until then I have a younger brown male I'm looking to home as I don't wish to keep to separate cages going. If anyone on here is in the Halifax (Canada) area on here looking for a buck let me know.


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

First thing you should do is get a kitchen scale and weigh them every day. If you notice a fairly large amount of weight gain daily it is almost certain they are pregnant. Rats don't very visibly show they are pregnant until they are a couple days away from popping them out, so the best way to predict and prepare for it is to track their weight. It is likely that they are going to be pregnant.  There is a great sticky in the accidental litter section that will help you predict and prepare. Good luck.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

Yeah, didn't do my homework before but in the last couple days I've read every sticky on here. I believe the females go into heat every 3 days or so, which is roughly how long he was in there. I know realisticly I'm looking at at-least one litter what are the odds of all three?


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

sorry also whilst I do have a kitchen scale its not the most accurate and wouldn't pick up the odd couple grams of weight increase, should I rush out and get one now or am I will I manage waiting to next Friday and picking on up on pay-day? If they are they are and I'll find out soon enough, I'm just wondering when I should start changing there diet.

Also Jag if possible can you move this to the litter section?


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

It's almost a guarantee one of them is pregnant, perhaps two, and it may be all three... time will tell. There's no rush to get the scale as you are aware the possibility, but it would be good to get one as soon as possible. I think it's something that all rat owners should have anyways - weight loss is one of the earliest signs of illness and such. I'll move it now.


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## AMJ087

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

a scale is a good idea, id also read the sticky in accidental litters about accidental ltters and prepare just in case. I think most of the info you'll need is there. I had the same problem with my first ever rats. I was supposed to get a second male adn they gave me a female and then thre was babies.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

So a decent kitchen scale isn't as much as I was expecting it to be. 

First day weight of my 3 ladies 

Flash 284 
Old Steve 314
New Steve 315

Flash and Old Steve are siblings and have always been around the size, New Steve (who was already named Steve I'm not that unimaginative) was previously owned by a workmate who was purchased for their daughter but needed to be re-homed so we took in and is a little over a year old. I'm a bit more concerned now were 2 of them weigh 30g more then Flash. How much increase should I see day to day?


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

Thinking I should introduce my gals to you guys,

Old Steve



















Flash



















New Steve



















The gang together


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated*

So far...










Forum is auto resizing image making it hard to read direct link:

link http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9521/screenshotxxz.png

Fingers crossed just water weight will keep you guys posted.


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## Alexc844

*Re: Very Shy... updated*



Devon said:


> So far...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forum is auto resizing image making it hard to read direct link:
> 
> link http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9521/screenshotxxz.png
> 
> Fingers crossed just water weight will keep you guys posted.


Generally water weight goes up and down, but in the cases of New Steve and Flash, it appears it is steadily going up.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*

I know its been 3 hours now so I checked them again New Steve and Flash where within one gram as of earlier this morning Old Steve @ 322g

I think its still to early to be 100% but I'm on the same thoughts as you with 2 of them


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*

A few questions I do have, most of what I'm reading is about people who've had one litter at a time. If 2 of my girls are prego are they ok in the same tank? also how soon should I move them into the tank(s).

I have also started adding baby food to their diets. Chicken for dinner tonight so be sure to save some for them anything else I should be doing in the meantime?

I do want to thank everyone involved with the site as well, been a learning experience. I'm off to work now but will update weights tonight.

Thanks again Devon


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*

They really should be separated before giving birth... Mothers often become aggressive towards people and other rats to protect their babies and the last thing you want is to have to take a mother and her day old pups to the vet for a severe injury...

Really everything you need to know is listed in the sticky at the top of the forum. Good luck again


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*

Well if there was any uncertainty its gone now.

Its been 24 hours since I first did a weigh in, so far I've been leaving them a bowl of rat food all day and feeding some fruit or vegetables in the morning before work and at dinner. Weigh them once before I feed them and a second time 3-4 hours after. Tonight was the first time the got any form of meat but I'll try to more often (little bit of tuna before I gave it to my cats and half a fried egg between the 3 of them)

Well here is the chart...










Direct link: http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9409/screenshotdn.png

And also a graph for those visual people like me










I'm curtain now Flash is 99% sure New Steve is too, as for Old Steve I think he just went crazy with the new tastes of egg and tuna but I'll still keep an eye on her. I'm going to try and keep the charts up to date still, I'm finding it quite interesting. 

So two litters at least, I'm sure my original Steve isn't but we shall see. Male was first introduced last Monday so 14 days and counting


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Please keep up with the graph if possible - it is useful information for everyone.


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## AMJ087

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

2 females together can work. Females sometimes help take on parenting duties, if they both have babies they'll both have milk too which would be nice if one has way more pups then the other. Make sure to read the sticky about accidental litters too.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x]

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*



Devon said:


> A few questions I do have, most of what I'm reading is about people who've had one litter at a time. If 2 of my girls are prego are they ok in the same tank? also how soon should I move them into the tank(s).
> 
> I have also started adding baby food to their diets. Chicken for dinner tonight so be sure to save some for them anything else I should be doing in the meantime?
> 
> I do want to thank everyone involved with the site as well, been a learning experience. I'm off to work now but will update weights tonight.
> 
> Thanks again Devon


Don't put them in the same tank. I disagree with all of the opinions above, no offense, but I've seen what females can do to eachothers babies. One of our babies ended up dead after being grabbed by the head. It was horrible - it is not worth risking it. They steal eachothers babies, could kill them, and they like peace with their bubs. I do not thinks it's worth any risk.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Weight Charts...


Direct link http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3170/screenshotde.png










Direct link http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9279/screenshotkc.png


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## AMJ087

*Re: Very Shy... updated girls weights from yesterday evening onwards*

I think it also depends on the size of the cage. if its a small cage they are more likely to act aggresively. I never said he should do it Im just saying its been done without problems but obviously its better to give them privacy.


They ahve got quite a bit larger though huh? Im assuming you are preparing adn reading up huh?


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Yeah have the day off work today going to clean up spare bedroom and get them set up in there so my cats can't get near them.

Also there diet has changed quite a bit over last few days and the weight gain isn't as much as I was expecting. Do I have enough numbers yet to predict? I've already done there first weigh in this morning will post in a couple hours when I do the second but I'm starting to think I might only have the one pregnant rat.


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## AMJ087

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

ive never weighed my female when i suspected her, i assumed she was and jsut prepared so Im not sure on that. For me my best advice is prepare now haha


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Yeah, first contact was a last Monday so T-13 days. I'm just thinking about cages now, talked to a vet yesterday and she also recommended keeping them separated. I've seen a few ad's in my area for used bookcases might see if I can modify that into a 3 level rat cage to keep the moms separated but close. I'm going to wait till this weekend before I buy anything, by then I should know for sure.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Maybe it is just Flash?

Direct link http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/996/screenshotci.png










Direct link http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3041/screenshotyb.png


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x]

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Tanks aren't a good idea, small nursing cages with a good sized bar spacing (bubs can fit out when they start moving around in a couple of weeks time). Could anybody give you a cage?


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

I'm alright if I have to buy them, I was seeing pictures of people who have taken large book cases and renovated them in cages. I'm going to avoid the tanks due to ventilation and the hassle of mounting water bottles. Without shopping online I'm looking at about $100 per cage. I already have one spare that is suitable depending on who is pregnant otherwise its build or buy I've decided.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x]

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

Yeah we had to spend £90 per cage which works out about the same if not more than you're spending  Gah.
Luck


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## Jaguar

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

any updates on the girls?


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*











Direct link http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2430/screenshotmc.png

Flash I think is reabsorbing her litter, been reading online trying to figure out if this a good or bad thing. One less litter would be awesome, but all I can find online is in relation to cats/dogs and apparently depending on how far along the babies are could be bad. Dunno if this applies to rats any one who has any experience with this please chime in! (If bones have started to develop with cats and dogs, they can't break down the bones and leads to infections ext... Might need a C Section calling vet today).

Old Steve is. Been starting to play the role (Nesting and getting a bit territorial), if any of my rats where to get pregnant she's got the best odds. I don't know her exact age but would guess between 6-8 months old and has the best temperament among my three and has yet to have any health issues.

New Steve, I'm going to wait and see what her weights look like after today before I make a call on her. She too has also started to lose a bit of weight but I'll see what he is like today and check with the vet when I call her later on today. She is also a little over a year old but so far the vets I've talked to aren't too worried about her.

The new forth line (Camilla) is the weight progress of another rat 7 days leading up to birth that I've added on for comparison, she gave birth to 16 pups.


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## Devon

*Re: Very Shy... One definitely prego, one more than likely and a pig*

From http://www.ratz.co.uk/breeding.html



> Pregnancy and Birthing
> 
> Gestation period for rats is normally 21-24 days, although it can be as long as 25 and there have been cases of delayed implantation recorded that have allowed the pregnancy to go on for as long as 35 days on rare occasions - there are often problems if the pregnancy extend for more than 24 days though.
> 
> During the pregnancy you should maintain a good healthy diet for your doe. *Do not increase the diet during pregnancy as this can cause birthing problems if the doe becomes too fat during pregnancy.* (which I did)
> 
> *You can choose to weigh your doe while she is pregnant but this is not really recommended and can cause her to reabsorb. Does gain between 30-60g per week during pregnancy and generally gain between 100-150g total. Most breeders prefer to not handle their pregnant does much during their pregnancy period though as this seems to sometimes cause the does to reabsorb their litters. Personally I try to handle my pregnant does as little as possible while they are pregnant and once moved to the birthing cage, the only disturbance they get until after birthing is giving them food and water.* (Which I definitely did between 3-4 times a day)
> 
> You will probably notice a temperament change in your pregnant doe, particularly as the time gets close to her birthing when her hormones are raging! Normally pregnant does temporarily rise to alpha in their cage, but some may become quite aggressive to their usual mates and need separating off earlier. Normally I put the pregnant doe in a nursery cage when they have about a 3-4 days to go. I will occasionally leave a sister or mother or close friend in with her until the last day - sometimes they are happy with this, but mostly they seem to prefer to be alone as pregnancy can be rather tiring and they do sleep a lot during these last few days.
> 
> Ideal nursery cages are the Rody or Duna type tanks with a Rody igloo for a nice secure nest. The Rody igloos split in half making it easy for inspection of the newborns without upsetting mum too much. Some breeders prefer not to use an igloo for a nest, preferring to leave the doe to build a nest in the nesting material. There is no right or wrong, just personal preference.


Wish I found this before hand.

Also from http://ratguide.com/breeding/pregnancy/determining_pregnancy.php



> Weight Fluctuations in Pregnancy
> While weight gain is used to monitor a healthy pregnancy, it can also be used as a tool to signal a problem. There may be variations in weight during pregnancy such as a slight weight loss, a few days with no weight gain, or bursts of weight gain. These variations are not necessarily abnormal or indicative of a problem.
> 
> Time passed with no weight gain or continued weight losses are usually indicative of trouble. A rat that is obviously pregnant that plateaus at a certain weight, and maintains that weight, raises some serious concerns. It is possible that the fetuses have died without being reabsorbed, the weight gain was due to other medical issues unrelated to pregnancy, or that the babies are stuck and the rat is unable to deliver. If her delivery time has passed without babies being born immediate veterinary intervention is in order.
> 
> *Consistent weight loss is typically a sign of reabsorption. Often the weight loss will be ½ ounce a day or more. There are many different scenarios that can cause a doe to reabsorb her litter. For the most part the fetuses will be reabsorbed with no problems.*
> 
> Occasionally incomplete reabsorption may result in a uterine infection. After the loss of a litter monitor your doe for any signs of infection or illness such as abnormal vaginal discharge, high (or lowered) temperature, lethargy, persistent or frank bleeding, loss of appetite, etc. If any of these occur have your doe examined immediately by your veterinarian.



Well all 3 of my girls are in different cages, I'll stop the weight charts now and keep an eye on there behaviour.


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

When you know FOR SURE that your rats are pregnant, then you can reduce handling, but when you don't know and are trying to figure out and prepare it is better to weigh them and know what is going on. I've never heard to avoid handling the moms at all - it is common sense not to abusively or roughly handle them but if they are tame and don't squirm around when being picked up, how is that harming the babies at all? Heck you don't even have to pick them up at all to weigh them if you really try.


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Well a bit of an update, 

I didn't really see any reason on keeping Flash and New Steve separated any more. They were looking upset being kept apart so I set up the ferret cage again and the two of them are back in there and behaving as normal Flash has lost almost all of her extra weight New Steve has also continued to come down.

As for Old Steve who is younger (I think I've confused people before with there horribly unoriginal names), his cage needed a bit of a quick clean, he's the most sociable amongst the three and climb up against the door any time your near waiting for you to let her out. So while we had him out replaced his bedding, got a brand new fleece blanket and lots of paper towel. While he was out he was quiet happy to hop on scale a hit 385. She most be ready any time now. Was actually expecting to wake up to a litter this morning but nothing as of yet.

Trying to be patient... will keep you guys up to speed.


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Well no pups this morning... I think. Steve has taken her hut and piled all of her fleece and paper towel over it and haven't seen her come out yet. Would I be bale to her the pups? I can hear her moving around under there but don't want to disturb her.


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Well finally came out of hiding, came out for a bit happy to hop back on the scale and hit 380. back in the cage had a bit of food and some water went back into hiding. 




















As for my other 2 there reunited back in the ferret cage acting as per normal. I'm really getting frustrated with the super pet cage. Doors are tiny and after I set it up I realised 3/4 of there things don't fit in through the doors. I can see a CN in my future depending on how many pups I have and how many were going to end up having to keep.

I'm glad its only the one litter, its going to be SOOOO much easier to manage and even if I have a hard time finding homes depending on the size should be able to to keep most if not all here.

Well I had the camera out grabed a couple quick pics of my other two to share. They seem much happier now that there back together.

Two of them together










Flash










New Steve


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Tonight???


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Ohmy, she looks ready to burst


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

15 gram jump in 8 hours


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

that 380 was first thing this morning took forever to finally sit down and post it but yeah.


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Ooh, haha. Let us know what happens though


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## AMJ087

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

im also really curious to know whats happening!! Keep us posted often.


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## psycho_ash

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Awww, look at that fat belly! She is just ready to pop!

And yeah, Super Pet cages are *really* starting to irritate me, too... CN really does seem the best way to go, but there's this place called Martin's whose cages I really like... They have really high quality stuff for a good price. The shelter near my house (about an hour away) only uses Martin's. 

http://www.martinscages.com/


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Martins cages are nice, but not really an option when you live outside of the USA - the cost of shipping is half the cost of the cage  But I live somewhat close to the WA border, so I can pick up any large stuff at a quick stop near the border like I am with the double FN I just ordered


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## psycho_ash

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*



Jaguar said:


> Martins cages are nice, but not really an option when you live outside of the USA - the cost of shipping is half the cost of the cage.


Oh, that's a good point. I guess Martin's is like the USA version of Ferplast, then? I can't seem to find any Ferplast retailers in the USA, only in Europe. It's a shame, because their XL looks *amazing*.


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## Jaguar

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

They do look pretty nice but they also cost a whopping 250-270 USD without shipping. Drop in pans are a huge pain in the rear and it takes up quite a bit of space seeing as it's almost a cube. &For that price, I would rather get a Critter or Ferret Nation which is almost double the size with multiple levels, stand, wheels, etc. :-\


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## Devon

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*

Well just got back from the vets.

Last night just before we went to bed it looked like she was starting to go into labour, left her alone for the night. This morning me and Kate had to be in for 6 am had a quick check seen some movement under fleece left in a rush didn't have time to really check her out. This afternoon we get home from work and she is by her self with some blood on the fleece. Weighs 40 grams less and no bubs. Take her to the emergency vet for x-rays but no babies, best guess she had stillborns and ate them which apparently is common for the mom to do to unhealthy pups.


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## sorraia

ema-leigh said:


> It is also common for a mother rat who has been moved from a colony to by herself to eat the babies as she doesnt feel secure raising them in a different enviroment. How soon before the birth did you move her?


Actually it is NOT common for mother rats to eat their babies, unless there is something wrong with the babies. The mother SHOULD be separated from her colony for the safety of the babies. The only time a mother would eat her babies is if there were something wrong with them (they were dead, dying, or sick), or there was something wrong with her (weakened from a complicated birth, usually this means the babies are also weakened). It would take a LOT of stress, not just being moved to a birthing cage, for a healthy mother to eat a healthy litter. 



> Yes she may of eaten the unhealthy ones... but thats not normally a whole litter. If they were all stillborn you will most likely would of saw some green discharge as well as blood on the bedding which is what leads me to believe she ate them because she was moved. Why do people think such a social animal wants to go through labour and raising the babie alone?!?!


It is a VERY bad idea to leave a mother rat in a cage full of other rats. Do you know why people recommend separating the mother rat? Because there's a risk of injury to the babies. If another rat decides to take over the litter, and isn't lactating, the babies can die from starvation. If the mother rat decides to intervene, the babies can die from being fought over. Sure, everything *might* go alright, but is it really worth the risk?


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## sorraia

*Re: 1 litter on the way, 2 reabsorbed... I think...*



Devon said:


> Well just got back from the vets.
> 
> Last night just before we went to bed it looked like she was starting to go into labour, left her alone for the night. This morning me and Kate had to be in for 6 am had a quick check seen some movement under fleece left in a rush didn't have time to really check her out. This afternoon we get home from work and she is by her self with some blood on the fleece. Weighs 40 grams less and no bubs. Take her to the emergency vet for x-rays but no babies, best guess she had stillborns and ate them which apparently is common for the mom to do to unhealthy pups.


I'm sorry to hear that the babies are gone.  It's hard to say what happened. Most likely there was something wrong with the litter, that is the most likely scenario. There was no way to know how many babies there were. If it were a normal sized litter of around 12 babies, it would be unusual (but not impossible) for all to be stillborn, but if it were a small litter (say 2-4 babies, which does happen) it's very possible.


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## sorraia

ema-leigh said:


> Actually if your colony is balanced the other does will *not* harm the babies. If the cage is large enough and there are seperate nesting boxes.... my guess is that you keep ALOT of rats so have not experienced perfect colony harmony and you have to seperate (Sorraia).


Actually, no, that's not the case. It is NOT about "balance". In the wild rats live in colonies, but our pets are NOT in the wild. They are far removed from the wild. Their natural instincts have been tweaked to the point that they no longer even act as wild rats. Cage size isn't going to help if one rat is intent on playing nanny and the mother rat doesn't want her to. That is going to result in a tug-of-war over babies.

You have also taken a bold step to flat out insult me and how I keep my rats. So, since you seem to know so much about me as a breeder, tell me what kind of cages I keep my rats in? How many rats to a cage? How much play time do they get? How many rats do I really have? No cheating by looking at my website. 



> If you are going to move a pregnant doe you have to do it like at least 2 weeks before shes due so she can get used to her surroundings and feel safe and secure. If she built a nest in her old cage, and you moved her you most likely upset her which *can* lead to them eating the entire litter as they no longer feel safe. Its a survival instinct, as the smell of the babies draws predators and she doesnt have her colony to protect her. In the wild other does would help out with the babies and in some cases they even can even produce milk for them. If your other does did reabsorb they would most likely still make milk and would of helped out.


This is not true. You speak about "balanced" colonies, and yet your comments only describe unbalanced rats. A mother rat will NOT eat her babies just because she is moved, unless there is something VERY seriously wrong with her or the babies. While this *might* be survival instinct in the wild, these are PETS, they are NOT wild animals. They should NOT act like wild rats. If they do, they are NOT pets.

edited for typo


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x]

ema-leigh said:


> Actually if your colony is balanced the other does will *not* harm the babies. If the cage is large enough and there are seperate nesting boxes.... my guess is that you keep ALOT of rats so have not experienced perfect colony harmony and you have to seperate (Sorraia).
> 
> If you are going to move a pregnant doe you have to do it like at least 2 weeks before shes due so she can get used to her surroundings and feel safe and secure. If she built a nest in her old cage, and you moved her you most likely upset her which *can* lead to them eating the entire litter as they no longer feel safe. Its a survival instinct, as the smell of the babies draws predators and she doesnt have her colony to protect her. In the wild other does would help out with the babies and in some cases they even can even produce milk for them. If your other does did reabsorb they would most likely still make milk and would of helped out.
> 
> Judging by your does weight gain, I'd say it was a litter over 7 and its unlikely they were all stillborn. And I do breed myself, so I am talking from experience.


In the wild female rats do not nest together.


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## lilspaz68

That's better, you are learning to say the famous words "In my opinion"...defuses lots of situations ;D

Have you seen this video? It will help you and others really understand how a wild rat colony works.

http://www.ratlife.org/


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## AMJ087

Ema... As far as the mealworm comment...Give me a break!!! Any animal would be curious over a MOVING insect. Ive seen plenty of dogs and cats eat insects! That statement is just irrelevant. You also said other females will help feed the pups. But as someone else has stated too if the other females are not or have not been recently pregnant they ahve no milk to help! Some females will become irritated witht he pups of they try to nurse from her and could cause problems. There are A LOT of problems that could happen. I do agree sometimes it does work and some females will tolerate and in specific cases will help. However you are out of line telling a member that what they diod caused the babies to be eaten. You do not know that and its not true!!! Many times and in many different situations things happen. Something very well could have been wrong with all the pups, maybe some came out alive but something was very wrong with them! You dont know!!!!! I believe something was wrong with the pups.


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## AMJ087

Ema I believe many people are trying to correct you actaully, you just wont listen. Thread locked!


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