# Rats suddenly fighting till one is injured



## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

Hey there! Having a little problem with my two rats, or rather one of them, and figured since you guys are the gurus you might be able to help me out!

I got my two rats in August of 2010 (so they are close to 2 years old, if not already 2 years old). They have a large cage (This is basically their cage- everything is identical except the one I got is an older version that doesn't have wheels. The measurements, layout, everything else is the same though. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SUPER-PET-FERRET-CAGE-MULTI-LEVEL-Nation-Mansion-/250896119484). For their entire lives they have lived together and been together, even when one has to go to the vet they both go together. Up until now, they have wrestled playfully and sometimes been brought to squeaking, but never anything worse than that.

However, in the last 7 days one of the rats has become more aggressive towards the other. Twice in the past 7 days the bully has drawn blood/gotten skin. The "victim" rat has been sickly lately due to a compromised immune system giving him mites (for which his on medication) and a nasty bout with bumblefoot (for which he is on antibiotics. His foot was swollen to twice the size of the other, but the swelling has gone down greatly).

The first fight was completely different than any wrestling they had done. The scream the "victim" made was blood curdling and we immediately ran to the cage. They separated, and we noticed a small patch of fur next to where they were fighting, with the "victim" acting pretty traumatized. We took them to the vet, who found the spot where the the fur had come from, and suggested we immediately separate them, as once blood is drawn there is a chance the "bully" will kill the other. They did admit they didn't deal with rats often, so they were somewhat unsure of exactly what to do in this situation, so I was a little hesitant.

5 days went without incident, when suddenly early this morning another scuffle broke out. This time a much larger wound (which scabbed over rather qiuckly) had appeared on the stomach of the "victim". At this point, we're very concerned.

Please understand that this is entirely new behavior. And even after the first fight, they sometimes slept together and the "victim" sat the "bully"'s shoulders and licked/groomed him. The victim is still weakened from his bout with the mites/bumblefoot, though he is recovering well and is getting more strength and more mobile.

What do you guys think we should do? I've been afraid to separate them until now because they have always been together, and while we would do what we could to be there for them, I don't think we can replace the companionship they would lose if they lost each other. On the other hand, I'm in no hurry to let one of my rats kill or continue to brutally injure the other, so if that is what needs to happen then it will. 

Any advice would be great!


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

He's showing aggression. You need too get him neautered...my two boys are the same way we had too seperate them


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

It's a male territorial thing and he's trying too neauter him


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't want to answer in place of the experts here, but this sounds like it could be hormonal aggression. The only reason I think this is because I had the exact same problem a while back, and when I asked on here that's what I was told. Unfortunately in situations like that, the only real way to sort the problem is to get the aggressive lad neutered. In my case, I had another cage with my other boys in it, so I put the one who was being bullied in to live with them and that worked for me. Like RatzRUs said, males try to neuter each other and will go for the crown jewels when they get hormonally aggressive. It can be vicious, so until you can get your aggressor neutered it might be best to separate them for a bit.


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## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

I appreciate the responses so far, and hope for more if anyone has anything to add!

On the topic of neutering: he is 2 years old at this point. Is it a safe option, considering his age?


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

You would have too talk too the vet. I don't want too sound like an expert,but my oldest one drew blood from my little one a bout 10 times 2 of which were through intros the others were accidents. I do let the boys play with my girls when they are not in heat....it helps a bit until I can get my youngest neautred. But it does sound like an hormonal aggression. It's hard since they are getting older


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

Campuschris said:


> I appreciate the responses so far, and hope for more if anyone has anything to add!
> 
> On the topic of neutering: he is 2 years old at this point. Is it a safe option, considering his age?


That's something for you and your vet to decide and will depend on his overall health and how the vet thinks he will tolerate anesthetic. It does sound like it should be considered, though, if you want to keep the boys together, and if your aggressor is healthy otherwise a neuter might be just fine. Going for the stomach/genital area is serious business and I wouldn't let them have time together unless I was right there. I understand not wanting either to be alone, (can't stand that myself), but it isn't safe.


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## PipRat (Jan 24, 2012)

I thought hormonal changes happened between 6-9 months of age for male rats. It seems odd that he would become hormonally aggressive at two years old. Doesn't that sound old? Anyway, no matter what, I think drawing blood is a pretty serious behaviour. This is a really good article about male rat aggression and it lists certain behaviours that will and won't be solved by neutering. 
http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails103.html


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

i agree piprat... it does sound pretty old for a hormonal change like that... if it were me, id seperate them, it sounds like the agression happened after the victim rat became sick? maybe his cage mate has a urge to rid himself of a sickly rat to aviod "predators" i know theres none, but in nature dead or sickly rats would attracted over animals. m not sure on this, id call your vet and look over neutering, it may help and its worth a shot, if not then you will have to seperate them or run a risk of more injuries or death. im dealing with a mother rat who try killing all her pups, shes taken the last 6 surviors and is raising them finally, the vet and i kinda think its just their nature to consider weakness a danger. like i said im not sure on this. im hoping something works tho asap so they can live in peace again! <3


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## katkandy (Mar 3, 2012)

could you be dealing with some kind of rattie old age dementia/senility? two is quite mature and i agree with the other sentiments regarding hormonal issues happening when younger. iheartroxyrat may be on to something with the 'sick/weak' thing, rats do have many primal urges despite their domestication. i would be interested to know if things calm down after the victim fully recovers.

and iheartroxyrat, i thought there was still 7 pups left! what happened? :c


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

It's not unheard of for hormonal aggression to flare up later in life. Is your bully acting like the white rat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2Z...DvjVQa1PpcFP0aWHVLy3C3HprkQFrfz6YScCpupZi8aw= (Perfect example of hormonal aggression). If your boy is too old for surgery, there is an alternative, rats can get an implant (similar to the contraceptive for women except it works on males, and is primarily used for ferrets). Ketaloren I think it's called. Gets inserted under the skin, effective for 6 months.


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## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

Alrighty, status update:

The vet took one look at the new bite wound and said "Oh my God!". It was a little worse than I originally thought. LUCKILY, the little guy was already on antibiotics so unless someone odd happens he should be fine and heal up with time. They already gave me a second prescription for more if needed. I asked her about neutering the "bully" and she said it COULD be done... but she really recommended against it and instead preferred separation, as at his age it could come with significant risk.

We began separating them at night and when we weren't in the room by closing off the top 2 levels and bottom 2 levels of the cage. One gets the top, one gets the bottom. This way we could watch them to make sure they didn't fight. Well, sure enough 2 days later they get into a minor scuffle. By the time we got to them he had already started nibbling on the wound on the stomach, so we said forget it. There's no way we can keep them together right now. 

So here we are. At this point, permanent separation, shy of supervised play times together, appears to be our only option. I'm sort of at a loss at what to do. For the past 20 months they have been inseparable, and suddenly they will be basically each living alone. I'm unsure at this point of how to tend properly to their needs of companionship, as we do have obligations that can eat up much of our time, meaning we can't give them the 3-4 hours of attention they would crave each day. 

I really hate the idea of separating them... but I don't know what else to do. So, for now they are separate. Any input anyone might have would be awesome! I'll take all the advice I can get!


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

katkandy said:


> could you be dealing with some kind of rattie old age dementia/senility? two is quite mature and i agree with the other sentiments regarding hormonal issues happening when younger. iheartroxyrat may be on to something with the 'sick/weak' thing, rats do have many primal urges despite their domestication. i would be interested to know if things calm down after the victim fully recovers.
> 
> and iheartroxyrat, i thought there was still 7 pups left! what happened? :c


katkand, two more had passed last week :-( he stopped latching and became very weak and the morning had passed :-( but the five that are still alive are sooo big and healthy ill have to add some new pics its amazing!  as for the aggressiveness, do they live in a wire cage? can u have one live upstairs and one down? that way they can see each other and stuff but cant get to each other?


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## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

Iheartroxyrat said:


> as for the aggressiveness, do they live in a wire cage? can u have one live upstairs and one down? that way they can see each other and stuff but cant get to each other?


Their cage is identical to this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SUPER-PET-FERRET-CAGE-MULTI-LEVEL-Nation-Mansion-/250896119484 except it does not have wheels but instead sits on a table top. Otherwise they are 100% identical.

I put a plastic container on the third level (the one that they get to by going up the spiral wheel) next to that platform, so the third level now goes from one end to the other, instead of just half of the cage (so in other words- the third level is now the same width/length as the bottom level). That container contains some bedding, but also serves to make it so they can't climb between the second and third levels anymore. Then I just stuffed something into the entrance of that spiral ramp. 

So basically, for now the bottom 2 levels belong to one rat, and the top two levels belong to the other rat. This may not be ideal, or maybe it is. I'm not sure, tbh. None of this is really working out quite the way I wanted it (I wanted them to be permanent cage mates and never have to live alone unless one died before the other), so I'm kinda winging it for now


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

ya thats prob what id do too. that way its like they are still living together, they can hear and smell but not touch lol. gosh thats so terrible! :-( you sure dont expect that! i hope that the sepration will work out. another question, are you planning on getting anymore rats? they could live with the nice one maybe  and he could teach the new ones the rat ropes ;-)


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## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

Iheartroxyrat said:


> ya thats prob what id do too. that way its like they are still living together, they can hear and smell but not touch lol. gosh thats so terrible! :-( you sure dont expect that! i hope that the sepration will work out. another question, are you planning on getting anymore rats? they could live with the nice one maybe  and he could teach the new ones the rat ropes ;-)


I had considered it, but I'm a grad student who is about to graduate and am unsure where I will live or what I will be doing. I'm concerned getting new rats may be irresponsible of me, as I can't be sure wherever I live next will take rats. As long as these guys are alive, I'll do whatever it takes or live wherever I have to in order to give them a good home and keep up the quality of life they are used to... but I'd do well not to get two youngins who will be around for 3-4 more years for that reason.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

It's also possible that he has a neurological problem like a pituitary tumor that can cause wacky behavior and aggression. 

I also found a lot of male aggression stemmed from boredom. Anyone would get cranky if they were cooped up in a room with the same person for extensive periods of time. Try to let them out to run around before bed and let them play separate in a large open area to give them some time apart.

It does sound like it would be best to separate them though, at least for now. Sorry


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## Campuschris (Mar 31, 2012)

Jaguar said:


> It's also possible that he has a neurological problem like a pituitary tumor that can cause wacky behavior and aggression.
> 
> I also found a lot of male aggression stemmed from boredom. Anyone would get cranky if they were cooped up in a room with the same person for extensive periods of time. Try to let them out to run around before bed and let them play separate in a large open area to give them some time apart.
> 
> It does sound like it would be best to separate them though, at least for now. Sorry


Oh man. How would we go about finding out if there's a tumor involved?

Also, can anyone suggest fun rat toys? We'll take em out of the cage to play with em, but I'd also like stuff for them to be able to enjoy in their cage as well.


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

I use cat jingle balls with bells Ropemformthem too climb onBoxesTubes like paper tower and toilet paper rollsI stuff a lot of toilet paper inside their boxes so they have nesting material or they can rip it too shreds LOLHmmm I have comfy little beds I madeHammocks


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## AngelBaby (Apr 3, 2012)

you may want to put them in separate cages until the one is healed and then clean the cage really well and treat it as if you where introducing a new rat into your family, washing them so they dont have too strong of their own scent and maybe put a little vanilla on them (it can be cleaned off later), putting them in a room that nethier has been to and moniter their play and then if all goes well put them in the freashly cleaned cage and moniter them for awhile in there and if all goes well leave them their together and just check on them every once in awhile and if a fight breaks out separate them again, thats all I know to do.. I hope it helped


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