# New rat owner - input wanted.



## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

A guy friend totally turned me on to rats. We are breeding two of them together. (Don't worry he has bred rats before, and I am doing a lot of reading).

Momma (Freya) & Pappa (Oil)










I got Freya three weeks ago. Her and her mate Oil get a long very well, both are socialize and sweet. Though I think they are still getting used to being here (they were at my friends house). I am keeping several of the babies and he is as well. Though we have other homes lined up if it is a big litter. Honestly, I would be willing to keep them all, just got a big cage. Only problem is giving them all equal attention.

So...I went to the pet store...and fell in love with this lovely creme girl. The woman there said they could not be introduced to other rats, so I was like...well I better a 2nd one. She also seemed to think that was not a good idea. But everything I have read said you should at least keep them in pairs. As well as when I was doing research, you CAN introduce other rats, but there are precautions to doing to. Like keep separate the new rats to make sure no illness, to mask their scent and introduce them on neural ground. 

Second concern was the breeding of the rats. They seem like they were mostly used as feeders. So of course I am worried about how they have been handled. They also still seem pretty young. Thankfully, Lalu seem pretty friendly. No nipping, and very cuddly. Chibusa likes being in my shirt. She got in there by herself. The Lalu also found her way in there and slept for more of the night. 

Anyways pics:

New babies

Lalu (creme) & Chibusa aka Chii (black)










I am a bit worried about Chii. She was pretty cuddly yesterday but today she is acting fearful. Pees/poops squeaking. She lets me pet her in the cage, but makes noise if I try to take her out. I have read (yes done a lot of reading on em) that sometimes the socialization process takes time. I have some ideas, but getting others OP would be good. 

On the flip side Lalu is the most loving rat I have come across (not saying much since I have only been around 5) I just checked on her and she climbs into my hand if I set it down. And last night I wanted to hold her and she just laid on my hand and fell asleep, eventually moving up to my neck and laying there. 

I totally need not to go where ever they sell rats though. I want to take them all home. 

My other concern is my dogs. The rats seem unfazed by them, and they only see them from the cage. I have ordered a bigger cage which is going in my bedroom. I can keep my dogs out most of the time, however when I go in there they are going to want to go in there. I am going to put the cage you can't see as well if I leave my door open, so I am hoping that will deter. My terrier Rox has no interest in them what so ever, however my dox Bitty...well she is the problem child in this case.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh my...Why exactly are you breeding petstore/feeder rats? I'm pretty sure this is considered BYB and you should seperate the males and the females if you're going to own both genders or neuter/spay them to live together. There are SO many unwanted rats if you want a lot of them adopt ones needing homes that are already alive please don't add to the population since you're not a responsible breeder breeding to better temperment and health.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

The ONLY reason IMO that you should breed rats is if you're trying to become an established, responsible breeding who is breeding to better the pet rat community by increasing life span/health and temperment. In that case you would NOT breed petstore/feeder rats. You would have to do A LOT of research and study under an already established breeder and start your line using rats that you know the background of (IE. parents, grandparents) please re-consider what you're doing and seperate your male and female rats into same sex groups.


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

mako_jess said:


>


I salute you!


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

It is very irresponsible to breed rats that you know nothing about their history and to be honest it doesn't even sound like you or your friend know enough about rats to be breeding them regardless.

Do you know where feeder rats come from? rat mills where the rats are kept mixed together and allowed to breed with ANYONE and EVERYONE back to back. The rats that come out sick/deformed are killed before they make it to the store. Several die on the way to the store. The ones that make it usually don't last that long because they have been taken away from mom too early and had such a poor start in life/poor genetics. You don't know how long their parents lived too, were they myco resistant, what ailments they suffered from. Did their breeder even do any selective breeding, take family out after a few generations? Most likely not, which means all the bad traits will be strengthened. Most genetic issues don't pop up until the rats are 7 months +. And what about hormones? They don't get them until they are 6 months old, so you won't even know the adult temperament of your 'line' of rats. What feeder breeders don't tell you is they usually have to put all their stock in the freezer after a year or two and get new breeders because the babies they are producing are so sickly they couldn't even be fed to a snake. What does that tell you about how great their 'stock' is? Urgh, don't breed from feeders.

If you really want to breed, do it right. Find a good established breeder to mentor you, only use pedigreed rats. You have to know LOTS of info on your line before you breed. Otherwise how can you possibly know how or what to improve? You SHOULD be breeding to improve the species, improve conformation, health AND temperament. Which means you need extensive info on the rats your breeding from, and also to diligently track the babies after they have gone to their new homes.

And what bedding is that in the tank? Looks a lot like pine but I may be mistaken? 

What if something goes wrong? Your mom Freya looks awfully young to be bred. Or too small if she is of the right age. Even if you do have homes lined up, if your not producing healthy friendly rats (not just as babies, most babies are friendly) Do you know what the warning signs are of a pregnancy going wrong? Do you know how much blood is normal? How soon babies should appear? Do you know how to massage the uterus if the babies get stuck? How to lubricate a baby in the birth canal? Do you have the time and resources to hand feed the litter IF something happens to the mom? You'd have to get up every 2 hours, even thru the night. Feed them all, stimulate them all. That litter could be 12 babies, or it could be 24... you don't know.

Do you have a website set up so adoptees can find info on your bubs, adult rats and your husbandry. Do you have an adoption contract for when they be re homed? A screening process? If you bring life into this world they are your responsible for them for the rest of their lives - meaning if something happens that the owner no longer can care for them or doesn't want them.... you should take them back. Do you have the means to do this? 

When you are keeping large numbers of rats the vet bills can be ridiculous. Can you really say you have what it takes to be a good rat breeder? No, then why do it?


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

Thank you Ema for saying what I wanted to say but much much better lol


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## blenderpie (Sep 10, 2009)

I could not agree more with what has been said in this forum. 

But want I really want to know is what's the appeal of breeding the rats? You can obviously get a baby, if that's what you want. 

And I just feel like unless it's accidental, having a litter is something that should come along after years of owning rats in a clean and responsible manner, if at all.

You wouldn't say "golden retrievers are cool" and go out and get two of them to breed together would you? Absolutely not! If you claim to love rats so much, at least show them the dignity and respect to not create more lives that will take homes away from rats that can be rescued RIGHT NOW.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

blenderpie said:


> But want I really want to know is what's the appeal of breeding the rats? You can obviously get a baby, if that's what you want.


I don't see the appeal in breeding either. I volunteer with a rescue that takes in hundreds of rats and have seen other rescues in the same situation. There are already so many homeless rats, why bring more into the world right now? The homeless rat situation isn't even under control yet. Not enough people are educated to how rats are as pets and what kind of care they need. Breeding just seems very counter-intuitive to rescuing rats. At the same time, I understand that not all breeders run a rescue also but I would think part of being a responsible breeder is also acknowledging the entire homeless rat situation. There are plenty of homeless rats that make perfectly suitable pets. When people go to breeders to adopt, it just makes me (as a foster rat mom) feel like "There goes one potential home from this foster rat." 

If you really want to explore your love for rats, learn more about them, get the facts on how to care for them and if your home is suitable for more rats, go adopt a homeless one. At least you'll end up with 2 rats (my rescue wouldn't adopt out a rat by itself) instead of a ton of pinkies.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

I really hope that's not pine in that tank >.< You're going to breed rats not even knowing what's exceptable for them to live on?


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

some times I am not clear or forget important details when I post of forums, since it is something I rarely do.

Freya was not pet store bought. Neither was Oil. Oil is from a line that was bred by my friend and we got Freya from a local breeder. Those are the two that are being mated. Didn't throw random rats into a cage. The "feeder" rats are not in the same cage. 

Getting the two girls from a pet store, not the wisest choice. I am very worried about them getting aggressive in 6 months, but time will tell. I am already nervous about Chii. Regardless, I am glad I got Lalu. Though her and Chii will never ever be bred though. I do get about why you don't want to randomly bred, so I am at least attempting to be responsible by not breeding the feeders/pet store.

Freya is 4 months old. I don't know all about breeding, but I do have a "mentor" who has already quite a bit. I do have a lot of time to devote to the rats, and if I am not there...he will be. So someone can be with the rats or near the rats 24/7. 

I understand there could be problems as well a vet bills, expenses. I can't say I spent a ton on them, but I have bought quite a bit. Just got one really big cage, Freya and Oil are in a 20 gallon tank with a wire top (if she is/does pregnant she is staying in there til babies are born, I have heard the wire mesh horror stories) and Lalu and Chii are in a 10 gallon with a wire leveled top. 

Anyways, if the breeding does take place..I am going to sit down and discuss the concerns posted with him. It is only going to be Oil and Freya. As well as she is only going to be bred once. My goal would to breed a healthy line of rats. As well as to make sure they go to good homes. So far the people that are interested I personally know, so I am not concerned with that.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

PEG said:


> I really hope that's not pine in that tank >.< You're going to breed rats not even knowing what's exceptable for them to live on?


I do know what is acceptable to live on. I know no cedar or pine. It is aspen.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

stephaniec said:


> blenderpie said:
> 
> 
> > But want I really want to know is what's the appeal of breeding the rats? You can obviously get a baby, if that's what you want.
> ...


My concern is socializing. 

I have not done research on shelter rats, but I would think the concerns would be the same as pet store ones since you don't know the line they were bred in as well as what they were subjected to from their previous owners.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

mako_jess said:


> Anyways, if the breeding does take place..I am going to sit down and discuss the concerns posted with him. It is only going to be Oil and Freya. As well as she is only going to be bred once. My goal would to breed a healthy line of rats. As well as to make sure they go to good homes. So far the people that are interested I personally know, so I am not concerned with that.


If you decide to breed, make you have a cage for males and a separate one for females. You don't want ALL the girls having babies. That'd be a disaster.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

mako_jess said:


> My concern is socializing.
> 
> I have not done research on shelter rats, but I would think the concerns would be the same as pet store ones since you don't know the line they were bred in as well as what they were subjected to from their previous owners.


I was trying to convince you not to breed, actually. I don't care about family history in rescue rats. My concern for shelter rats is finding them a home or opening my home to them until I can find someone to adopt them.

However, if you're going to breed, you best just talk to another breeder about getting rats. I would think responsible one will be able to give you family history and stuff which is where you should start.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

I get that you were suggesting not breeding. But, what I am referring to is aggression, interaction with people..ect. (And the following isn't directed at you).

Ideally, I want 3, maybe four. If I DO keep a male, I am planning on getting him fixed. I don't own Oil, he is going back to his rat Papa.

To be honest I am starting to feel slightly attacked. Not by everyone..but yeah. I am not saying that opinions can not be voiced, and it is true I am new to rats. Some very good concerns were brought up even though I may not like how they were presented. However, I am working with someone who has owned and bred rats for years. I am more likely not giving enough information about the set up, I tend to forget important points when posting. 

-SUCH AS Freya and Oil ARE NOT PET STORE BOUGHT.
-THE BEDDING IS ASPEN.
-THE FEEDERS ARE NOT EVER GOING TO BE BRED. 
- THE FEEDERS ARE IN A SEPARATE CAGE.

Just capping since it doesn't seem l those points are getting across. 

I am not looking to make money off this, I might even consider taking in and working with rescue rats when I learn more about them. I have been reading almost daily about what is good for rats, what is not good for rats, ect. I am now actually thinking about starting my own breeding line. Though not currently, but something I might consider when I am more knowledgeable. This would be to breed better rats. Plus the closest breeder in my area is 5 hours away, not crazy far, but it would be nice to have closer options as well as there aren't many in my state period. However, since I might be moving to Texas I may decide against it..since there seems to be tons there. (AND AGAIN, if I decide to officially breed, I am going to do research on it for a few years)

I am sucker for the poor feeders since I feel sorry for them. I suppose I shouldn't, doesn't seem like the general rat community does.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

Tanks are NOT good for ANY rat to live in for ANY amount of time WHATSOEVER.
Unless its a 20 gallon and mommys in there with the babies, but otherwise no.

:l


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

Even the most aggressive rat can be tamed. Just like a well bred rat that was mistreated can be aggressive. Socializing your rats to be accustom to you does take time. I don't know much about breeding but I've socialized many rats to bond with me and with each other. One of my rats took 3 hours a day for 2 weeks to get him to not run away every time I'm in front of his cage.

I don't know how much you know about your rats. I can't point you in any directions on where to start. Let alone, also, I don't breed rats. If I did, something weird is going on since all my rats are males.

I wouldn't take what people said too personally or like they're trying to attack you. As a public forum and rat enthusiasts, we just want to make sure that people are getting the right information. A lot of people could be coming around here reading posts. If we have a picture of rats in pine (I know it's aspen, and I knew even before the subject came up) and we don't say anything, then more and more people will be buying pine for rats (the bag of pine says safe for rats - it's stupid).


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## SRGaudio1 (May 18, 2010)

stephaniec said:


> Even the most aggressive rat can be tamed. Just like a well bred rat that was mistreated can be aggressive. Socializing your rats to be accustom to you does take time. I don't know much about breeding but I've socialized many rats to bond with me and with each other. One of my rats took 3 hours a day for 2 weeks to get him to not run away every time I'm in front of his cage.
> 
> I don't know how much you know about your rats. I can't point you in any directions on where to start. Let alone, also, I don't breed rats. If I did, something weird is going on since all my rats are males.
> 
> I wouldn't take what people said too personally or like they're trying to attack you. As a public forum and rat enthusiasts, we just want to make sure that people are getting the right information. A lot of people could be coming around here reading posts. If we have a picture of rats in pine (I know it's aspen, and I knew even before the subject came up) and we don't say anything, then more and more people will be buying pine for rats (the bag of pine says safe for rats - it's stupid).


+1


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

stephaniec said:


> Even the most aggressive rat can be tamed. Just like a well bred rat that was mistreated can be aggressive. Socializing your rats to be accustom to you does take time. I don't know much about breeding but I've socialized many rats to bond with me and with each other. One of my rats took 3 hours a day for 2 weeks to get him to not run away every time I'm in front of his cage.
> 
> I don't know how much you know about your rats. I can't point you in any directions on where to start. Let alone, also, I don't breed rats. If I did, something weird is going on since all my rats are males.
> 
> I wouldn't take what people said too personally or like they're trying to attack you. As a public forum and rat enthusiasts, we just want to make sure that people are getting the right information. A lot of people could be coming around here reading posts. If we have a picture of rats in pine (I know it's aspen, and I knew even before the subject came up) and we don't say anything, then more and more people will be buying pine for rats (the bag of pine says safe for rats - it's stupid).


Really? Because that is the big thing I am worried about. I have a shelter dog who had been abused, neglected. Granted she is much much better than she was when I got her, she still some what aggressive when introduced to new people. Pretty much a new person has to ignore her til she comes to them, then she is fine. However, sticking your hand down there is ill advised. She has never bit anyone, but there are times I am tense when people do that to her. 

So, even if a rat has it bred in aggression in the lines, they still can be tamed? Just want to make sure that is the case, because I'll reconsider breeding her. At least till I learn more about the process. 

Thank you for your input! 

As far as the forum thing, I get that. Text can come across different then it is meant if someone said it to me. I am sure I am just being a little sensitive (bad week). I know when I post in forums I am careful of my tone, because of how it can be taken. 

I know I would certain point out if some one was doing something that I knew was damaging to an animal. 

Anyways, enough about the breeding. I am going to separate them for the time being, even if it is just for Freya to get older. However, I am leaning towards checking rescues or breeder. After all we are going to at least need to get Oil a new male, his papa (cage mate) died of old age recently. 



EddricksMommy101 said:


> Tanks are NOT good for ANY rat to live in for ANY amount of time WHATSOEVER.
> Unless its a 20 gallon and mommys in there with the babies, but otherwise no.
> 
> :l


From what I read they are not the most ideal, however they are suitable as long as you clean them often/properly and have a wired top. 

I have a 20 gallon with reg. wired top and a 10 gallon with a wired level. I like those the best so far because they fit most of the concerns I have. After all I don't want wired floor because of the chance of bumble foot. It also gives them extra ventilation because of the wired top/levels. My third cage I ordered is decent, but not exactly what I wanted since the bottom is plastic and I am trying to stay away from anything plastic in their cages. We might line it with wood or something. That way they won't chew through. Anyone have any recommendations for that, that would be awesome. The big cage is mostly wire with 3 or 4 levels. It comes pretty high, it was at least past my waist and I am 5'8". That should be here in a few days. We should be able to pretty much mod any cage, my friend is handy with things like that. He was going to build one, but I veto'ed it for the moment. We might end up doing that. 

Also food recommendations? I am leery if pet store food. I noticed that most of them have sunflower seeds..and I don't want to sit there and pick them all out. As well as I noticed they don't eat a lot of the the mix. I am thinking of picking up some lab blocks, see if they take to those. As well as incorporating veggies and other fresh things into their diet. What do most rat owners recommend?


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

Bumblefoot is not caused by wire cages.

Thats a common misconception


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

If you are concerned about the socializing part, which is probably the easiest part of raising a litter then that shows you that you don't have all your bases covered. Which you really need to do before considering breeding. The best experience comes from hands on, there not a lot of good info online.

Also 10 and 20 gallon tanks are not ideal for rats at all. I have a 55 gallon (5ft long) with a topper that I use for raising litters and with 1 mom and lets say the average of 12 babies you have to clean it at least twice a day and it seems kind of cramped once the babies start moving around. I don't see how anyone could keep two rats in a 10 or 20 gallon tank, let alone plan to raise a litter in one. I know you have ordered a larger cage, but the babies will need to be kept separate until they are old enough. 

Can I ask you, with the pairing of Freya and Oil.... what was the breeding planned specifically for? conformation goals? Why did you pick to pair them together? Is Freya a good example of an agouti? Do you know what colors you would be expecting from the litter? (I know you can't always know for sure, and sometimes genetics can completely surprise you and go against logical theory. But do you have any idea?)

Were the feeders quarantined before bringing them into your home? As a breeder quarantine is crucial... if a pathogen is bought in it could devastate your whole colony - let alone be super expensive at the vets.

Do you have the dates recorded of Freya's heat cycle? date paired? due date? This can be crucial, because otherwise how will you know if the babies are stuck and mom needs assistance? Or if shes reabsorbed and needs antibiotics to prevent infection? 

You contradicted yourself by saying Freya was acquired from a local breeder, then in a later post the nearest other breeder is 5 hours away? 


> Freya was not pet store bought. Neither was Oil. Oil is from a line that was bred by my friend and we got Freya from a local breeder. Those are the two that are being mated.





> Plus the closest breeder in my area is 5 hours away


I know you may feel attacked, a lot of people here are against breeding rats. But really all your reading is strong opinions of people who pour their own love and money into rescuing and know how critical the situation is of rats needing homes is. I am a breeder and I am welcomed here to join in discussion. But then I have also been a rescue and seen the not so pretty side of poor breeding and genetics, impaired immune systems etc. If you did things the right way, took your time to research and learn more in depth about ratty care - you might find everyone here a lot more accepting of an ethical breeder. I personally feel if you are breeding right AND controlling where the rats are for the rest of their life (very strict monitoring), then you are offering a better option than the pet stores. 

And trust me, we've all been there... buying the whole tank of feeders to 'save' them. Pouring money into them to clear up their respiratory infections, get them socialized and in a new home. Only a few months later to go back to the pet store and find they've installed a new tank and now leave their male in with their female permanently because of the interest in them as pets as well. They may also try get prettier marked rats, and like most pet stores do go for the high whites. And then they start a line with mega colon. They never think 'oh what if they can't find homes' because they just throw them int he freezer and sell them as snake food. Theres always more than one way to look at different situations.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> If you are concerned about the socializing part, which is probably the easiest part of raising a litter then that shows you that you don't have all your bases covered. Which you really need to do before considering breeding. The best experience comes from hands on, there not a lot of good info online.
> 
> Also 10 and 20 gallon tanks are not ideal for rats at all. I have a 55 gallon (5ft long) with a topper that I use for raising litters and with 1 mom and lets say the average of 12 babies you have to clean it at least twice a day and it seems kind of cramped once the babies start moving around. I don't see how anyone could keep two rats in a 10 or 20 gallon tank, let alone plan to raise a litter in one. I know you have ordered a larger cage, but the babies will need to be kept separate until they are old enough.
> 
> ...


+1

And might i just add.
The quantity of the users here at ratforum (or the most of them i think) trust Ema a lot, so basically, her word is law when it comes to these ratties.

Her

Littlematchstick
kiko
jaguar
tamsmith

Am i leaving anyone out?

But yeah, these are the people i listen to.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

Owning a petstore rat isn't a bad thing. But being that you admit that you're new to owning rats you should not be breeding them, period, in my opinion. Responsible breeders own rats as pets for years and do a LOT of research before breeding themselves for the first time. There is just no point in doing what you're doing that I can see. If you want to take care of a rat litter and find homes for them why don't you foster an expectant mother rat from a rescue or something along those lines.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

mako_jess said:


> Really? Because that is the big thing I am worried about. I have a shelter dog who had been abused, neglected. Granted she is much much better than she was when I got her, she still some what aggressive when introduced to new people. Pretty much a new person has to ignore her til she comes to them, then she is fine. However, sticking your hand down there is ill advised. She has never bit anyone, but there are times I am tense when people do that to her.
> 
> So, even if a rat has it bred in aggression in the lines, they still can be tamed? Just want to make sure that is the case, because I'll reconsider breeding her. At least till I learn more about the process.
> 
> As far as the forum thing, I get that. Text can come across different then it is meant if someone said it to me. I am sure I am just being a little sensitive (bad week). I know when I post in forums I am careful of my tone, because of how it can be taken.


I've turned the most aggressive rat into a suitable rat I'd trust with a child (though I never leave a child alone with any rat just because.. they're kids). I mean, sometimes aggression is due to hormones and sometimes, it's just who they are. I don't think breeding one nice rat with another is going to really guarantee a pile of nice ratties. I don't know if there's even such things as a "nice" gene. I've never heard of it anyways but I'm also not at all a breeder.

As far as food goes, I prefer the Harlan Teklad which you could order online. The quality is good and it's affordable. There's also Oxbow Regal Rat but I have not tried it. There's another brand, Living World Hamster Extrusion, that I heard from members here is very good. You should most definitely not go with a seed mix. Definitely get some good quality lab blocks to get the nutrition they need. I feed a bit of the veggies I cook every night ('cept rats get it raw). 

And I totally understand tone can be taken wrong very easily through text. I've had the same experience myself but once you get to know people's intentions, you start to see that they really do mean well. I've had my sensitive times while on this forum myself. You're not alone in that part.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

PEG said:


> Owning a petstore rat isn't a bad thing. But being that you admit that you're new to owning rats you should not be breeding them, period, in my opinion. Responsible breeders own rats as pets for years and do a LOT of research before breeding themselves for the first time. There is just no point in doing what you're doing that I can see. If you want to take care of a rat litter and find homes for them why don't you foster an expectant mother rat from a rescue or something along those lines.


Have you not read my most recent post? I have decided to wait on breeding til I am more knowledgeable about rats. Please read.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> If you are concerned about the socializing part, which is probably the easiest part of raising a litter then that shows you that you don't have all your bases covered. Which you really need to do before considering breeding. The best experience comes from hands on, there not a lot of good info online.
> 
> Also 10 and 20 gallon tanks are not ideal for rats at all. I have a 55 gallon (5ft long) with a topper that I use for raising litters and with 1 mom and lets say the average of 12 babies you have to clean it at least twice a day and it seems kind of cramped once the babies start moving around. I don't see how anyone could keep two rats in a 10 or 20 gallon tank, let alone plan to raise a litter in one. I know you have ordered a larger cage, but the babies will need to be kept separate until they are old enough.
> 
> ...


I did say I wanted to drop the breeding discussion, that I am not going to bred any rat til I am more knowledgeable.

Freya was bought 5 hours away. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through, but we were in the area visiting friends. By local I meant the state. I suppose local isn't really too local. Like I said, sometimes I forget important details, I don't post on forums often. 

And yes the babies are being held separate.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

Well even if the sexes are seperated from now on it's probably a mute point on you having a litter depending on how long they were together. Hopefully she isn't pregnant but I guess only time will tell.

I agree that a 10 gallon with a topper is not suitable for 2 rats at all...neither is a 20 gallon.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

PEG said:


> Well even if the sexes are seperated from now on it's probably a mute point on you having a litter depending on how long they were together. Hopefully she isn't pregnant but I guess only time will tell.
> 
> I agree that a 10 gallon with a topper is not suitable for 2 rats at all...neither is a 20 gallon.


I suppose so. 

Thank you for your input.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I think theres a lot of great knowledgeable rat owners here, so all together we are a very strong community with great advise. If you posted this on the rat shack or goose moose, I think you would of gotten torn apart lol. 

I forgot to mention you need a more than basic knowledge of genetics, especially with the colors and markings you wish to work with. Some colors are fatal if mixed together, some produce megacolon etc. You need to have a direction you want to take each line in, know what kind of rats to add to make improvements, know how to strengthen the colors etc. The best way to do this is research and working along side another breeder - you can watch their lines and what produced what. Not all of the genetic info on websites have I found to be correct. 

You also want to take a step back and decide what kind of breeder your current mentor is. Just because hes been producing baby rats for years doesn't make him an ethical breeder. If you agree with all his methods and ethics, then thats great. But if anything raises any red flags for you... and your sure you yourself want to be a good breeder.... then you need to find a better way to 'get your foot in the door' so to speak. 

Also temperaments ARE genetic, but environment can influence them greatly. And EVERY temperament issue can be worked out eventually, but at the end of the day your producing rats for other families as well - they shouldn't have to work on anything. The majority of them will not be experienced rat keepers, and will either return them to you or end up dumping them somewhere else if they feel they can not deal with it or its a danger to their children etc. Some people find a $100-$200 neuter too much for their $15 rat. If they don't recive handling in the first 4 weeks, then you go handle them like crazy for months.... they can still remain skittish and aloof. Its vital babies are held, inspected and socialized from day 1. If any of the rats you are using have known aggression in their lines, don't use them! If any of your rats have every had a URI, don't breed from them. Its about selecting the best of the very best for your breeding stock, then waiting until you have the perfect couple to compliment each other before breeding. Whats the point of producing more rats unless they are superior and will advance the species. 

Also consider what foods you will supplement mom with before, during and after pregnancy. What about the babies? Will you introduce them to hard foods gradually? any supplementing for them? What if mom has a large litter and splits the nest into two? or some babies don't have milk bands because the larger siblings push them out of the way? What about when you get a runt? They will need additional feedings from you if they are to survive. 

Bumble foot is not caused by wire cages, however the pressure from walking on the wire CAN contribute to the issue or make it worse. Bumble foot is from dirty conditions causing an infection. However acute bumble foot can occur in any rattie.. all it takes is a scratch on their foot then they step on their own feces. (Which happens even in the cleanest of cages) 

As for food, seed mixes are terrible. Rats need carb based grains, not high fat seeds. However pumpkin and sunflower seeds are good supplements if fed in the right amount. You can SEE the difference between rats fed seed mix and rats on a healthy diet. At this moment in time the best kind of diets available for rats happen to be the lab blocks. Harlan is great, but only available to be ordered online. Oxbow is fantastic, but hardly any rats enjoy it or will eat it continuously. Hamsters Living World Extrusion I feed my rats, its readily available and my rats thrive off it. (Although I do feed mostly my own recipe for a grain mix, thats just my choice of lab block) Mazuri is considered a good brand, but my rats only did okay off it. Stay clear of anything Kaytee, or other brands of lab block. Bear in mind rats only require 10% protien per day as an adult (6 months +) and 16% as babies. They also require daily vegetables, several varieties... which brings down the daily protien intake. Fruit every couple of days (as high in natural sugars) 
For healthy treats, you could throw in the odd chicken bone (will keep them entertained for hours and is good for their teeth), meal worms (but only in small amounts, high in fat and protien), baby foods or sugar free organic yogurt. Mine just go nuts for their veggies each night. 

I know you don't want to discuss breeding further. But from the picture it looks like Freya and Oil have already been paired together. Since breeding takes less than three seconds... I'd prepare yourself for a litter. Which means you now NEED to learn some important info before hand. Something your mentor should of already prepared you for.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> I think theres a lot of great knowledgeable rat owners here, so all together we are a very strong community with great advise. If you posted this on the rat shack or goose moose, I think you would of gotten torn apart lol.
> 
> I forgot to mention you need a more than basic knowledge of genetics, especially with the colors and markings you wish to work with. Some colors are fatal if mixed together, some produce megacolon etc. You need to have a direction you want to take each line in, know what kind of rats to add to make improvements, know how to strengthen the colors etc. The best way to do this is research and working along side another breeder - you can watch their lines and what produced what. Not all of the genetic info on websites have I found to be correct.
> 
> ...


Welp, glad I posted here. The thing is just because the breeding was a mistake and ill advised, but I don't feel the need to be torn apart. Just have to make best of a situation. There are so many websites that contradict each other, so some solid info would be great. 

Hm, it seems I have over-esteemed his abilities? I know he has never have had any complications, maybe he just had luck on his side? Oil is 3rd gen. I never met the other babies, but Oil and his father have/had amazing temperaments. I tend to take things at face value (a flaw I suppose). The problem I have with people keeping bring up breeding is that they are like "OMG, you shouldn't have done that", which out offering any real suggestions. 

Anyways, what done is done and all I can do is the best I can with the situation. If you have any suggestions or website suggestions that would be wonderful. Or perhaps a good book. 

Is this website info correct on food?
http://exoticpets.about.com/gi/o.ht...&bts=1&zu=http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

After reading, I am tempted not to use a great deal of store bought or snacks. I think I will pick up what you suggested in combination with fresh veggies and fruits (and other rat safe snacks). And the current food I am going to pick through. I find it interesting that things that are labeled for rats are not always good for rats. You would think manufacturers would do research.

On a general note of breeding. What do you do with rats that show signs of aggression or URI as a breeder?


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

"The problem I have with people keeping bring up breeding is that they are like "OMG, you shouldn't have done that", which out offering any real suggestions."

That's because we don't think you should be breeding. I'm not going to give you tips on something I think you shouldn't do. We gave you tips. For example you should own pet rats for a few years while doing research to learn as much as you possibly can about everything there is to know. Then find a responsible breeder and spend some time studying what they do and how they do it. Then get an appropriate breeding line with ALL their history and begin there under the guidance of an already established responsible breeder. Those are all the tips you really need at the moment, or would be if you weren't already most likely expecting a litter. Sorry just a little irritating that you say we're not giving you tips when there has been plenty of good solid information passed your way several times by several different people in several different manners. Also you have to keep in mind, that in most of our opinions, you shouldn't have done what you did, so we were just being honest with you.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

I hate playing mediator and I'm not trying to argue with anyone... but the situation is what it is. There's no use in capitalizing on mistakes or getting frustrated at this point. At this point, telling her she's wrong for doing anything isn't going to go anywhere so might as well give the advice she's going to need to do things right from here on out. I understand we have our opinions but I personally feel like it's getting to the point where any mistake, 10 people will jump on the person and bash them for it.

I'm sorry if this puts anyone off but... I just feel bad because a few people accused her using pine and telling her she doesn't even know what rats can live on and no one said sorry when it was aspen. A lot of people here know a lot about rats (and that's not even including me). I just think it'd be a more pleasant experience if all this "You don't know anything" attitude stopped. People did come here to ask and learn after all.

I don't want to argue so I'm sorry if this puts anyone off.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

"I just feel bad because a few people accused her using pine and telling her she doesn't even know what rats can live on and no one said sorry when it was aspen."

You are very right, and I'll be the first to say I'm very sorry for jumping to conclusions about that specific thing. I apologize and I'm very glad it is aspen and not pine ^.^


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

I appreciate that response.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

No problem  I'm really not a mean person, and I don't want to make anyone feel bad. We all make mistakes, I know I have and still do. I am just a very opinionated person when it comes to my views regaurding animals.


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

I just have a couple questions mako_jess. Who is this breeder that you recieved Freya and Oil from? Does he have a rattery name, or website? Also have you owned rats before Freya and Lalu and Chibusa? As a new rat owner I do think it was an irresponsible decision to breed them, and only start reading up on the care of them now. Breeding isn’t something to be taken lightly. I think it would have been better had you read the Forum Rules, and how we do not support intentional breeding. You wouldn’t have walked in thinking you were attacked. 



> I have decided to wait on breeding til I am more knowledgeable about rats.


I think it’s safe to say it’s to late now. I just wish you wouldn’t of jumped into it.

I am thankful that you are open to everyone’s opinion.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I was the first to mention pine and I only asked, not accused. I know aspen and pine can look very similar, hence why I asked. I really fail to see how anybody is being torn apart here? The thread asked for input, and I thought we were all very honest and informative. Which I would class as solid information. If you would like any specifics, please ask away and I'll answer all that I can. 

When considering rats for a breeding program they should have at least five generations of documented pedigree. And then all of those rats, and related rats health and temperament needs to of been monitored vigorously. 

I can understand your friend may of led you on a bit with his expertise. ALL lines have issues, health problems do crop up - if he tells you hes had no complications what so ever.... then hes either lying or is completely ignorant to that fact that he actually did. Some breeders tweak and change their pedigree and health records to suit them or to make their line look good, so I would be wary of this person and his rats. Some don't even realize when their rats die or get sick and then list their cause of death as natural. Do your own research and start your own breeding program ethically if you are going to do so.

We also try and make our replies as detailed as possible for other people reading them, who could pick up some potentially very irresponsible info otherwise. So any points that are made that are incorrect, yes I do feel the need to replace it with facts. Nothing is a personal attack.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

I would also like to add that I rescued a feeder rat 17 days ago and there is a good possibility she is pregnant and can have a litter any day now. As much as I would love to have little baby rats running around my room I hope for everyones sake she turns out NOT to be pregnant. So reading that you intentionally were breeding irresponsibly as a new rat owner kinda set me off and I'm sorry if I came off as rude but this is a very serious subject and we're not trying to sugar coat things because that's not going to get through to anyone.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

PEG said:


> "The problem I have with people keeping bring up breeding is that they are like "OMG, you shouldn't have done that", which out offering any real suggestions."
> 
> That's because we don't think you should be breeding. I'm not going to give you tips on something I think you shouldn't do. We gave you tips. For example you should own pet rats for a few years while doing research to learn as much as you possibly can about everything there is to know. Then find a responsible breeder and spend some time studying what they do and how they do it. Then get an appropriate breeding line with ALL their history and begin there under the guidance of an already established responsible breeder. Those are all the tips you really need at the moment, or would be if you weren't already most likely expecting a litter. Sorry just a little irritating that you say we're not giving you tips when there has been plenty of good solid information passed your way several times by several different people in several different manners. Also you have to keep in mind, that in most of our opinions, you shouldn't have done what you did, so we were just being honest with you.


]

And I get that. But, I don't need one person telling me 10 times.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

You have to keep in mind that if you don't want to hear peoples opinions you shouldn't post your business on a public forum and I don't mean for that to sound rude at all but it's the truth and I learned it the hard way myself and because of it I've learned a lot and my rats progressively live a better life cause of it as well.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Well then moving on... did you need any other specific questions answered? 

Are you prepared for a possible litter regardless? I would treat Freya like shes pregnant, as she most likely is. Its important she has a good healthy diet, lots of fresh veg and you can supplement her with a little extra protien (in the form of grilled chicken, salmon tuna, meal worms etc) 

Make sure she still gets excersize, but nothing too crazy. And as she starts getting bigger, reduce the amount you are handling her by. Its very easy to damage the babies inside. 

Make sure she has a safe secure place ideal to give birth and raise the litter in away from your other rats.


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## mako_jess (Sep 10, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> I was the first to mention pine and I only asked, not accused. I know aspen and pine can look very similar, hence why I asked. I really fail to see how anybody is being torn apart here? The thread asked for input, and I thought we were all very honest and informative. Which I would class as solid information. If you would like any specifics, please ask away and I'll answer all that I can.
> 
> When considering rats for a breeding program they should have at least five generations of documented pedigree. And then all of those rats, and related rats health and temperament needs to of been monitored vigorously.
> 
> ...


It is common on forums when someone disagrees or corrects something that 10 people might post without reading what others have said. It is very annoying. The fact that PEG constantly bring up that I made an error, which I realize I did..AND said I did is very off putting to this community. I do appreciate your questions, it did make me realize how much went into rat breeding, even rat breeding info on the web didn't go into that much detail. 

And again, tone does not come across through text. 

I felt accused by PEG when it came to the pine, however I do realize it was a honest question from you.


LauraNat said:


> I just have a couple questions mako_jess. Who is this breeder that you recieved Freya and Oil from? Does he have a rattery name, or website? Also have you owned rats before Freya and Lalu and Chibusa? As a new rat owner I do think it was an irresponsible decision to breed them, and only start reading up on the care of them now. Breeding isn’t something to be taken lightly. I think it would have been better had you read the Forum Rules, and how we do not support intentional breeding. You wouldn’t have walked in thinking you were attacked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, my head is spinning at this point. The being attacked isn't about someone saying that was not responsible, I am a big girl I can take a bit of criticism. It is when it happens over and over even after I admitted that it was not a good idea and am trying to make the best of it. That is what is bothering me. 

And yes, I should have read forum rules. 


And Peg, I don't feel like much solid info has been passed to me. I wanted some rep. site, advice. Ema did give me a lot of questions to make me think, and I could google them. But with the info out there some correct some incorrect, not sure what to really do about it all. 

Not coming back, will just try to do the best I can on my own.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

First of all when it comes to the pine related subject I apologized long ago for how I put what I said actually I was the first to apologize once it was brought to my attention that I hadn't already. Secondly, I stopped just telling you what you did was wrong and simply starting either defending myself and my posts or replying to something specific that you said. You asked why people weren't giving you info about breeding right away and in my opinion it's because we didn't feel you were ready to start breeding but I'm only truly speaking for myself. Nobody personally attacked you I told you several times I wasn't trying to be rude but simply honest and opinionated. I'm done with this thread but I didn't join this forum to be quiet and not join in conversations and voice my opinion.


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