# Random Biting



## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

I have an 11 month old pet store rat that has been hand tame since I've had her. She has never been super fond of human companionship, but has never been aggressive by any means. All of the sudden, about two weeks ago she started biting. I've always rubbed her head and chin without any issues two or three times a day, but now over 50% of the time she will bite my hand when I try and touch her. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Can you explain the bites and the activity before and following them? Do they draw blood, are they rapid, does she withdraw after?


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

She doesn't act aggressive at all, it's just when I reach for her she will tilt her head and bite me. She rarely draws blood, but there have been a few times where the skin was broken. At first I would pull my hand away, and firmly say "NO", but now I just accept the bite (they are fairly quick, she just bits and then lets go) and try again. Once she has bitten, she will bit again if I attempt to pet her a second time. She does not withdraw at all after a bit she stands in the same place, as if nothing has happened. Other times when I reach for her she will close her eyes, and let me massage her neck and checks.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Are you coming at her from above?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Before I comment... I'm not thinking aggression from what I hear so far... Lets get some more background...

How many rats does she live with, how much time is she out of the cage, what is your normal play session out of her cage like etc...? How does she interact with other rats and people...?

The rat brain is actually very organized, and it adapts, your rat may be asking to be taken out of the cage of trying to get you to stay and play, one of my girls used to try and pull me into her cage for example... Naturally I wouldn't fit, but she did try.

Usually when you get odd behaviors it's in response to something in the way your rat is living.... I'm not being judgmental! But if someone is going to really help, it's best to see the big picture, rather than try to mask a symptom. Sometimes it's as simple as spending more fun time out of the cage or giving your rat more shoulder time...


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

This may be the case. She (Karmel) lives with one other female rat. I will often leave the girl's cage open all day so they can come and go as they please.My other girl (SweetPea) comes out and seeks my attention when I enter the room, so she is often picked up and carried throughout the house. SweetPea gets the most attention because she seeks me out, and then when I give her attention she will just stay with me and enjoy it for quite some time. I don't hold either of my other rats for very long, because they are both are very fidgety and don't really seem to enjoy being held or riding on me for any length of time. They will crawl down my arms and jump onto any surface they can reach when I hold them, so when they want down I just place them on the floor where ever I happen to be. They may explore a little bit, but always quickly return to my bedroom where their cage is located. My third rat (Remington) is Karmel's best friend, but they cannot share a cage because Remmy is a boy. I had brought him home from the pet store and was told he was a five week old female, but after a couple weeks she grew ... well you know.. She is a he. Since Karmel and Remington are best friends, I allow them play time together each day (except while Karmel is in heat). I don't dare leave them unattended for too long, so a majority of their "one on one" time is dedicated to me just supervising their play. I have considered having Remington neutered, but my local vet wants to charge way more than I am willing to pay ($250). Anyway, if you have any suggestions on what I can do to give Karmel more attention I will try it. Except for hand feeding her, I'm afraid that the biting will become more often if I start hand feeding her, (but this may be a silly fear?).


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

I don't come from her from only one angle. Sometimes from above, sometimes from the side, sometimes from under her chin...


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats with eyesight problems usually need to hear your voice first, then they sniff and then they are friendly. I don't know if your rat has eyesight issues, but you can give that a try. If that isn't the problem give your rat a slight finger bop on the head and say NO when she nips you to let her know you don't like that behavior. Everything else sounds pretty much OK as your rats otherwise seem happy to be handled and held and played with. 

Small problems are generally fixed by firm but gentle communication, rats are smart and learn. But when there's something seriously going wrong in the rat's life, trying to fix the little problems can make things worse. 

As to letting your boy and girl play together, you didn't ask for an opinion and I won't give you one, except that your girl might be telling you she wants to play with her boyfriend... you sound like you know and understand the risks. Still, I've got my money on mother nature...

Best luck.


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## Endgame (Dec 21, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Rats with eyesight problems usually need to hear your voice first, then they sniff and then they are friendly. I don't know if your rat has eyesight issues, but you can give that a try. If that isn't the problem give your rat a slight finger bop on the head and say NO when she nips you to let her know you don't like that behavior. Everything else sounds pretty much OK as your rats otherwise seem happy to be handled and held and played with.
> 
> Small problems are generally fixed by firm but gentle communication, rats are smart and learn. But when there's something seriously going wrong in the rat's life, trying to fix the little problems can make things worse.
> 
> ...


+Rats have poor eyesight anyway.


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Ratties see clearly for a few feet and then things become a bit blurry. Red eyed rats tend to have the poorest sight but not always. My girls see just fine across my apartment, especiallly if I wave a treat at them.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As two of my rats are shoulder rats, I've seen rats with awesome eyesight compared to others. I will suggest from my experience that rats with normal brown eyes can see best in bright light. But keep in mind pink eyed rats can have their eyes damaged by bright light. 

The research indicated that rats have fewer rods and cones and therefore have lower resolution eyesight... that doesn't mean it's out of focus. It's more like a rat sees the world in newsprint where we see the world through a high resolution monitor. A newsprint photo isn't out of focus, it just lacks fine detail. Some rats will sway their heads to try and fill in the gaps where some rats don't need to. Rats actually have a better depth of field than humans do. In other words something close and something far away can be in perfect focus at the same time.

The problem is that this is often explained by comparing rat vision to nearsighted humans. I'm nearsighted which means my lenses don't focus properly on my retina so distant objects appear blurry because they are out of focus. This is not the case with a brown eyed rat that actually has perfect focus. Because a rat has "newsprint vision" it theoretically can't make out fine details at a distance. Keep in mind it also can see into the UV ranges we can't see into which might explain why it can see better in some light situations than others.... If there's lots of UV like on the beach in summer, it might actually see more visual data than you do...

Now why put a fine point on this??? Because I am nearsighted, distant things blend into a soup for me, although I have lots of rods and cones and high resolution vision everything out the window at a distance blends together and my brain can't interpret it. When Fuzzy Rat looked out the same window, everything was in crystal clear focus for her, she saw fewer pixels that I did, but they were all in the right place. I think this goes to two issues, that outdoor shoulder rats can learn to better interpret their newsprint view of the world with experience and second that they can make out larger objects at further distances. Not to mention like human super tasters that have more taste buds, I believe that some rats have more rods and cones than others.

So far Max hasn't demonstrated Fuzzy Rats remarkable outdoor vision, but at our safe site she can spot a small pine tree, say 20 feet high from well over 100 feet away and run directly towards it in bright daylight. At night she stays very close at heel when we walk her, even though we can still see the trees in the dark. Max also has a fascination for yellow construction equipment and can spot it and run directly to it at quite a distance. 

Amelia our black - ruby eyed rat has run to HUGE trees and small buildings at distances of over 50 feet, but has trouble with human size objects at that distance. Amelia also often goes to my rat phobic wife, she may not be able to distinguish who someone is at even close distances, Fuzzy Rat never made this mistake. 

So there are really several things going on with rat eyesight. Yes, their vision is poorer than ours, but when you read that their vision is 20/600 you think of nearsighted human seeing the world out of focus, which is not true in rats, the fine details they miss is because they have "gaps" between the pixels in their vision. If a certain rat were born with more pixels than another it would have better eyesight and if a rat were to spend more time outdoors it would learn to better interpret the pictures it sees. And like the UV component of a rats vision there are things we can't really understand because we can't see how a rat actually sees...

Fuzzy Rat always rode backwards on shoulder until I stopped so she could remember her way back to the car or back to the house, she played with children and would duck under their running feet and was expert at not getting stepped on, she wasn't afraid of wide open spaces, I judge her vision when she was young to be nearly as good as some dogs and never having seen better, I'm thinking that's as good as it gets... Max is a very competent true shoulder rat and can see and interpret fairly large objects outdoors, she's not nearly as confident in open spaces and can recognize people she knows for at least 15 feet and probably more like 25 feet. Amelia hates open spaces and will walk up to the wrong person indoors up to 5 feet and in low light even closer.

Honestly, I don't know what the average is. For the most part I believe that brown eyed rats mostly all have good enough eyesight to navigate indoors successfully, and that's what matters to most people here. 

We were told Amelia had black eyes and didn't see them flash red until we got her home, but generally we only choose normal brown eyed rats. I believe that a rats personality is to some degree based on how well it can see and rats that can see better become more competent and relaxed in more situations.

It's really very easy to test your rats eyesight, if your rat crosses rooms and goes directly to it's intended objective, it can see well enough for most purposes.... Rats that have awful eyesight will hug the walls and prefer the dark. Rats with good eyesight will see things in the middle of the room and go to explore them, rats with poor eyesight won't notice them there and will scurry from dark place to dark place and they will also run to hiding places you have moved. Rats have excellent spacial memory and can fool you because they can remember where things are and go to them even if they can't see them. So don't be fooled.

I have videos of Fuzzy Rat leading the way back to the car... but in this photo Fuzzy rat is the tiny white dot next to the black trash can.

She started her trip back to the car from the pier behind and has already traveled a few hundred feet. She went to the fork in the path and kept left, passed the kiddie playground and the public restroom, proceed to the foot bridge, crossed the bridge turned left and went to the correct car which is in the parking lot under the distant trees.









Naturally... this is a test you can't do with most rats... And by the way this was a cheap camera with a grainy resolution the picture doesn't look clear to us either, but even with a crappy resolution like this we wouldn't get lost either.

Yes, I realize that common wisdom says that rats have bad eyesight, but there are degrees of bad, and rat vision isn't actually out of focus... it's more pixelated than out of focus. And of course pink eyes and ruby eyes are something that wouldn't happen in nature too often and can be a handicap for a rat and it's something to take into account when you adopt a rat.


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

Karmel and I had a super good cuddle session last night. No biting involved. I kept going in and checking on her until she showed interest in my attention. I then picked her up and carried her around cuddling and loving on her for about 7 minutes straight. We soaked up each other's attention, and then when she was done I offered her a small bit of chocolate to show her how thankful I was to receive some of her time. I had such a happy heart afterward, and been waiting all day for her to share some more of her time.  Hopefully the biting was just some attention seeking bites!!


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

Oh my goodness! Information overload! I love it. I had never thought about the difference in the vision of the rats. I had just assumed that the difference in the way the kids ran around the room was due to the difference in their personalities. SweetPea has no problems running across the open room when she sees me, and so I always just assumed she was the only one who really enjoyed my company. Karmel will sit next to the dresser or bed and look around, but not come to me. It makes sense that if her vision is different than SweetPea's, she may not feel comfortable running across the open space to get some lovin. I will keep up the one on one attention I have been trying to give her. I got to play with my other two today, but Karmel has been in hiding. She only came out once while I was in there, but she wasn't in the mood to spend time with me. She just grabbed a bite to eat and ran back to her hiding space.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Girls often prefer to show their love with aggressive play rather than snuggles. Max our current shoulder rat stopped snuggling when she was about 8 weeks old, now "cats in the cradle" she's too busy for dad.

But if I play with her aggressively on the bed or the floor she will chase around me and jump all over me and have a great time as long as she can keep her feet moving. She can play for what feels like forever, but as soon as she sees me slow down and the excitement is over she wanders off.

I realize it's still her way of loving us, but I miss the naps together and the snuggles. 

And yes, a rat's vision has a big impact on it's personality in my opinion. I wear glasses and can't see much without them. Without my glasses I'm pretty helpless even though I wouldn't walk into walls, I certainly wouldn't run around recklessly or enjoy a trip to the park or do too much playing with anyone.

I'm glad things seem to be improving... Most rat issues are fixed with a little patience, a little understanding and a little communication.


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

My rats and I have grown so much closer since my last post. These kids have lived with me since October, and I am very unfamiliar with keeping them as pets. I had never thought of wrestling with them, or any other methods of playing with them to be honest. I have tried rough housing them, and found Remington really enjoys this type of play. He will hop over my hand, and run around in circles. He is so cute. Once we finish a good play session he vigorously grooms me, and cuddles on my shoulder. He has never cuddled or groomed me before now. SweetPea is a little apprehensive of rough housing. She just looks me in the eyes, as if to say "Seriously?" Karmel has been being picked on the last few days by the other two rats. I'm a little concerned for her at this point. I've moved her to a separate living space. She has pretty much quit biting, although earlier I think she attempted to nip at me. I was giving her a good head rubbing (which she normally loves), but after only about a minute she started tilting her head. I pulled back both times. The last time she got me, she drew blood, and I'm a little nervous to be bitten again like that. Anyway, she may have been nipping me to tell me SweetPea was being a booger to her, we'll see what keeping them apart does. Anyway, thank you for everything so far. I am loving my rats even more than before, and the satisfaction of seeing Remington come out of his shell and starting to bond with me is melting my heart. I'm a happy, happy girl!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It seems like it was a long time ago... but I started out not expecting too much from rats. But I was open minded. Then came Fuzzy Rat, she was as smart and capable as any dog I've ever owned. That sent me back to the drawing board and I had to revise everything I ever believed about rats before.

Not all rats are like Fuzzy Rat. In fact I'd guess that there have only been a very few, but on a whole rats are very smart animals and really enjoy the time you share with them and given a chance to be more they will grow into being a real family pet. 

Rather than separate your rats, try to supervise play with them to encourage them to play nicely with you if you can. And if you are sure you are about to get nipped. Shout NO! and bop the offending rat on the head (with love in your heart), be firm but gentle rats are small animals. Rats usually get the message pretty quickly that you don't like to get bit and they can't push you around. And they shouldn't confuse you being nice and friendly for being weak and submissive.

Keep up the great work! You have only begun to have fun.


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## Nicole6492 (Nov 29, 2013)

I put Karmel and SweetPea back into the same cage, and moved them into the dining room (which is right next to our main living area). As a family we spend most of our time out there, so I figured I would be able to better supervise them. We haven't had a single fight, and Karmel has not attempted to bite me at all. Everyone gets tons more attention. They are talked to, handled and given treats much more often than when they were kept in the bedroom. They even get table scraps at pretty much every meal. I have just found the guide for immersion training, and plan on attempting what I can with them. I want to thank you for taking the time to help me with my "random biting". Poor Karmel was just trying to communicate with me, and I thought there was something physically or mentally wrong with her.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Both humans and rats are social animals that communicate and need interaction to support their emotional needs.... I realize when you look at an animal as small as a rat you don't immediately think sentient, intelligent, metacognative and emotional social being. It's actually not an easy concept to grasp and there are plenty of so-called rat experts that still don't get it.

But once you get it, and you start treating your rats right everything just changes... Immersion theory is based in part on communicating with a really amazing rat who insisted on being understood. It took me a while to get it and I was lucky enough to know and live with the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat every day. 

I really think your have gotten it now. And I think you are well on your way to the great animal friendship you and your rats deserve. 

You have come a long way and you are doing a great job. Keep it up and teach your rats to be more competent and communicative and things will only get better.

Best luck and keep up the good work.


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