# Rats dislike being pet and don't want to cuddle



## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

The original post is lost in limbo, so here goes my second try to posting this.

This is my first post on this forum. After reading many topics from other rat owners and watching a ton of videos about ratcare and behavior in pet rats we decided we wanted to adopt pet rats.

My wife and I adopted 3 dumbo hooded male rats from a breeder January this year when they were 6 weeks old. Their names are: Obi-Wan (alpha rat), Loki and Gandalf, they're from the same litter. They have a lovely double level cage with a tons of hammocks, a hide, foraging toys and such. We get them out of their cage twice a day for at least one hour of free-roaming inside a selfmade playpen. We give them treats, raging from dried fruits, cereal and hard-boiled egg during playtime and through the bars of cage in order to bond with them.

The odd thing is we can always easily pick them up (they freeze the moment we scoop them up [fear?]), since we've practiced doing that from the day we got them, however, all three of them absolutely HATE being pet. We've tried everything ranging from letting them lick yogurt or meat baby food from our fingers during free-roaming to letting them sniff our hand before touching them. They always back-out the moment we touch them. This is accompanied with squeaks and sometimes even screeches.

They also tend to fight ALOT both inside as well as outside the cage. We are thinking about neutering all three of them since there does not seem to be a single 'aggressor'. The fighting has never led to bloodshed, though they do screech and scream a lot during fights.

All three of them are still very much aware of sounds and sometimes freeze for 30 minutes or more when we as much as sniff our noses near the cage. Their cage is in the area of the house that gets the most traffic, so they'll get enough exposure.

We wanted male rats because of their cuddlyness and chill nature. We've tried everything from, immersion to forced socialization, nothing seems to work to get them to love us and it really discourages us, especially after seeing tons of videos and reading stories about rats licking their owner's fingers and love cuddling with them. We have them for four months now and nothing seems to work. They only see us as their source of food and free roam time, and it looks like they don't care about us at all. They don't lick us (only when we have liquid treats on our fingers and stop immediately when the treat is 'finished'). What are we doing wrong?

TLR || After months of socializing rats they're still skittish and don't like getting touched. They show no love or interest towards us. How can we get our rats to love us?


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

Hi and welcome! It all comes down to age and personality. I foster rats, and have had all types. But it wasn't until just recently that I had a rat that actually wanted to be petted, wanted to be touched on his back and neck, and he came to me. The others, especially the young ones, only come for their food like little piggies. They clamor and lick until it's all gone, then run off to play in free roam. Like children, there is so much to do and so much to see and smell and taste. Like toddlers at the playground, who hardly look back at their parents.

So it isn't so much that they don't love me or like me, they are just too busy being rats to settle down for cuddles and pets


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## TwilxghtRat (Nov 27, 2020)

First of all - STOP WATCHING THOSE VIDEOS! 😂 As silly as that sounds, it’s true. Watching videos of people with seemingly perfect rats will just make you discouraged, like you mentioned.

I honestly don’t have much to add, I agree with everything Tinytoes said!


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## ratsbian (Feb 4, 2021)

I’ve found that some of my rats have gotten more cuddly with age, so it could just be hyper young rat time. Additionally, each rat has a unique personality & to an extent that cannot be changed so I think you need to take a deep breathe and cherish your little guys for who they are, even if it isn’t what you expected. 

I agree that you need to stop watching those videos— it sounds like it is just making you feel worse and the rats won’t watch the videos themselves and change overnight.

If they are all fighting, I would recommend neutering them. Is this something they’ve done the entire time they’ve been with you or is it more recent?

Welcome to rat parenthood by the way!!


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Thank you all for all the replies so far. This community is so friendly and welcoming. I'd love becoming a part of it. 

As for the videos we've watched, I totally agree with you all that they do play a part in the discouragement, however most videos we've watched were about rat behaviour and how to socialize young ratties. We've tried every trick in the book and it didn't help as much as was expected. 

In response to ratsbian - They've been in fights since we got them, in the beginning it more playful baby rat fighting. Nowadays there is a lot more puffy fur and hissing going on. They pin eachother down alot. There seems to be a dominance struggle between Obi-Wan (alpha) and Loki as they screech and sometimes even scream whilst fighting. Would neutering all three of them solve this issue? 

How do we make them more relaxed. They seem so tense from time to time. Sometimes all three of them freeze up without any reason (no sudden movements or sounds coming from us) and they look terrified. We've tried giving them their favourite treat when this happens (yogurt) but they refuse to take it, even when we smear it on their mouths. Is anything we can do to prevent this from happening?


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## Terry22 (Mar 9, 2021)

Honestly they are only 6 weeks old, they are still babies and just growing up. Give them a month and you should see them start to settle down and not be as skiddish. They likely will be much more social with humans by 2-3 months if they are in a high traffic area and being interacted with regularly. All of this behavior is pretty normal for young male rats just coming to a new home.

One thing, most of the rats I have owned at that age were more interested in fresh greens than anything sweet. I found it easier to bond with new young rats simply by frequently coming by with bits of romaine lettuce or spinach. I would keep a container in my fridge of romaine/spinach bits and just hand them pieces frequently throughout the day. I would test new foods as well but found they cared the most about greens at that age. You can make a consistent noise to alert them to your treat visits as well like tapping on a food dish, clicking your tongue, etc.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Terry22 said:


> Honestly they are only 6 weeks old, they are still babies and just growing up. Give them a month and you should see them start to settle down and not be as skiddish. They likely will be much more social with humans by 2-3 months if they are in a high traffic area and being interacted with regularly. All of this behavior is pretty normal for young male rats just coming to a new home.
> 
> One thing, most of the rats I have owned at that age were more interested in fresh greens than anything sweet. I found it easier to bond with new young rats simply by frequently coming by with bits of romaine lettuce or spinach. I would keep a container in my fridge of romaine/spinach bits and just hand them pieces frequently throughout the day. I would test new foods as well but found they cared the most about greens at that age. You can make a consistent noise to alert them to your treat visits as well like tapping on a food dish, clicking your tongue, etc.


They were six weeks old when we got them. They are now 5 months old.


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## Enne (Dec 12, 2020)

TheMoekefoek said:


> Sometimes all three of them freeze up without any reason (no sudden movements or sounds coming from us) and they look terrified. We've tried giving them their favourite treat when this happens (yogurt) but they refuse to take it, even when we smear it on their mouths. Is anything we can do to prevent this from happening?


This is just something rats do... Nothing you can really do about it.


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## Terry22 (Mar 9, 2021)

Ah I think I missed those references in the original post. Honestly males have always been hit or miss for me. I found some end up loving human touching and all of that but many don't seem to care for it. I still like males but I now always have the expectation that many of them will be independent of me. It always confused me because I have read a lot about how males are more cuddly but this has rarely been the case for me. I have had much more success with females as they seem to naturally enjoy soft petting and cuddling especially as they age.


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

Ya gotta love them for everything they are, and everything they are not. My first foster boys were full grown and not socialized, and I loved them just the way they were. They will never be cuddly. My last set of 5 boys I raised from 4-5 weeks old, and only 1 out of the 5 is actually a cuddly rat, but only when he wants to be. Gimli is my 'tail wagger'  but I had to go through 16+ rats to get that special one.


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## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

I don't like it when people describe male rats as being more cuddly. People often say girls are more playful and boys are more cuddly but the opposite of playful isn't cuddly, it's lazy. Young rats are all pretty energetic for the first year or so. As they age, girls tend to remain more active and boys tend to get lazier. "Active" versus "lazy" has nothing to do with affection, though.

It's normal that your rats don't care for being petted. It's normal that they don't curl up in your lap and take naps and cuddle. As they get older, they may be more likely to want pets and cuddles but there's no guarantee. I've had rats that never really cuddled but they showed affection in their own way. Don't be discouraged. You're not doing anything wrong and your rats aren't defective. They're just acting like pet rats.

As for the fighting, rough-housing is very normal. Squeaks and pinning and forced grooming are all normal. Puffed fur and hissing is starting to sound concerning, though, and should be cause to pay close attention to them. After you've had rats for some time, you get a feel for what's acceptable fighting and what's not. The [JoinRats] website has some good pages on normal play as well as aggression/fighting. Talking with your breeder is definitely a good idea if you're worried about aggression!


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

CorbinDallasMyMan said:


> I don't like it when people describe male rats as being more cuddly. People often say girls are more playful and boys are more cuddly but the opposite of playful isn't cuddly, it's lazy. Young rats are all pretty energetic for the first year or so. As they age, girls tend to remain more active and boys tend to get lazier. "Active" versus "lazy" has nothing to do with affection, though.


I totally get what you mean. It just seems that after months of intense socialization they're still as afraid of us as the day we got them. They just don't seem to progress. 



CorbinDallasMyMan said:


> As for the fighting, rough-housing is very normal. Squeaks and pinning and forced grooming are all normal. Puffed fur and hissing is starting to sound concerning, though, and should be cause to pay close attention to them. After you've had rats for some time, you get a feel for what's acceptable fighting and what's not. The [JoinRats] website has some good pages on normal play as well as aggression/fighting. Talking with your breeder is definitely a good idea if you're worried about aggression!


The fighting is actually getting more and more intense, especially between Loki and Obi-Wan. Both of them often puff up and screech at eachother while intensely rolling around like a ratball. I 've noticed a difference between the regular shove and playfights and the more extreme wrestling. Loki would puff-up his fur and use his hindleg to kick Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan responds by pinning him down. During these pins Loki screeches and keeps kicking Obi-Wan.

I've heard about the saying "no blood no foul", there hasn't been bloodshed, although I'm keen on avoiding that as much as possible. I even break them apart when they start getting puffy.
They're not aggressive towards me or my partner.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Tinytoes said:


> Ya gotta love them for everything they are, and everything they are not. My first foster boys were full grown and not socialized, and I loved them just the way they were. They will never be cuddly. My last set of 5 boys I raised from 4-5 weeks old, and only 1 out of the 5 is actually a cuddly rat, but only when he wants to be. Gimli is my 'tail wagger'  but I had to go through 16+ rats to get that special one.


We sure do love them for the little rascals they are. I just wish they'd stop fighting with such intensity and be more trusting of us.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Here you see a typical fight between Loki (top and puffy) and Obi-Wan (bottom). Loki is kicking Obi-Wan with his hind leg in this picture.


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

the ole' karate chop with the hind leg lol. Normal. If you see one rat go shooting up in the air screaming, and boxes and stuff flying, you might want to check for an injury. Most of the time they just make a whole lot of noise, like children screaming "He hit me!!!"


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Thank you all for all of the amazing replies. 


Our rats are still pretty terrified of us from time to time. At the time of writing this my wife is cleaning their cage. When cleaning we always temporarily house them in a small hamster cage (their cleaning cage) with a sputnik. All three of them are cramped inside the sputnik, frozen in fear. It just hurts seeing them this way, even though they experience this every Friday while we clean their cage.
Is there anything we can do to make them less tense?


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## TwilxghtRat (Nov 27, 2020)

TheMoekefoek said:


> Is there anything we can do to make them less tense?


Honestly, not really. They just need to get more used to it, you could put them in it then take them out and give them a treat so they associate it with good things, you might want to move one of their objects from the main cage into the cleaning cage (then put it back after) so that the boys at least smell their scent in there!


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

Moving them from the safety of their cage is very stressful. And reaching in to catch them is not helping them learn to trust you. If you could try herding them into a fleece tube, and then move that to the small cage, they will be much less afraid. Then when they are returned to their cage, give them whatever super special treat they like, preferably a wet treat on a spoon that they have to lick off and can't run away with. 

The unfortunate thing I have learned is that one scary experience can undo weeks of trust training. Everything is going fine, making progress, then something frightens them and they regress back to being fearful. Very frustrating. Takes days for them to get over it and forget, which they will.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Tinytoes said:


> Moving them from the safety of their cage is very stressful. And reaching in to catch them is not helping them learn to trust you. If you could try herding them into a fleece tube, and then move that to the small cage, they will be much less afraid. Then when they are returned to their cage, give them whatever super special treat they like, preferably a wet treat on a spoon that they have to lick off and can't run away with.
> 
> The unfortunate thing I have learned is that one scary experience can undo weeks of trust training. Everything is going fine, making progress, then something frightens them and they regress back to being fearful. Very frustrating. Takes days for them to get over it and forget, which they will.


The odd thing is, we don't even have to try hard to catch them. Whenever we open the cage they just freeze in place and we can pick them up easily without any struggle or fuss. It's just that after 5 months of living together with us they still look at us and see mean giants who are trying to eat or hurt them. We've been nothing but calm and sweet to them.

We offer them a wet treat and they lick it from our fingers, but they would only take from time to time. It just seems that al the training we did the last couple of months have been in vain.

We've made peace with the fact that they'll probably never become sweet cuddly snuggle rats, but we just want them to feel more relaxed. After all the careful handling they still seem scared most of the time.



TwilxghtRat said:


> Honestly, not really. They just need to get more used to it, you could put them in it then take them out and give them a treat so they associate it with good things, you might want to move one of their objects from the main cage into the cleaning cage (then put it back after) so that the boys at least smell their scent in there!


Funny that you've mentioned this because we actually tried that today for the first time by moving in their favorite hammock with them, that sadly didn't work as they resorted to hiding in the space pod again.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Here is a picture of Loki frozen in place after receiving his favorite treat (dried melon). He sat still like this with the treat in his mouth for almost 10 minutes! Me moving away from the cage doesn't help, since I actually left the room and came back to still find him still in the same position. After a while he'll slowly but hesitantly start eating the treat. All three of our rats are like that.


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## lfraser06 (Aug 5, 2020)

TheMoekefoek said:


> Here is a picture of Loki frozen in place after receiving his favorite treat (dried melon). He sat still like this with the treat in his mouth for almost 10 minutes! Me moving away from the cage doesn't help, since I actually left the room and came back to still find him still in the same position. After a while he'll slowly but hesitantly start eating the treat. All three of our rats are like that.


So here's the thing with rats, especially the young ones ...... you have to work on their schedule. Maybe back off "trying" a little bit ... instead, just keep giving them opportunities to come to you. Start with calling by name, to the cage door and give them a treat. The fun part is, whatever they get used to hearing you say when you do that, will be what they respond to gong forward. For instance, in the mornings, my girls hear "wake up - it's treat time". when I get home, it's "where's my ratties at?" They learn to associate that with their treats, so they are fairly quick to respond. I have Turvy trained that if I ask if she wants to go for a walk - she runs up to my shoulder. If I ask her if she wants to go home - she runs down my shirt, back to her cage.
Don't worry about if they take the treat and run ..... it's normal and not a reflection on you. 

Remember, they are learning to trust you. For that to happen, they need you to be patient and consistent. And that happens on their schedule

Also to follow up on @CorbinDallasMyMan's post ....... in addition to the distinction between cuddly and lazy ..... your rat's idea of "cuddly" may not be the same as yours. Turvy thinks if she's laying still for a few minutes while being pet, that's cuddling. It's not that she doesn't like it - she does. It's that she can't stay still very long. Susie's idea of "cuddling, is to rest her head into my hand while I pet her jaw and chin.Gigi just wants head scritches and will completely zone out while getting them. Touch any other part of her and she'll bolt. 

So while they're learning to trust you - you can start learning their own personalities.  🐭

Good luck.


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

Wow, the freezing has never gone away? So they don't run from you, I misunderstood. I'm sorry they haven't come around. Some rats just never do. I wonder if it has to do with genetics. Is it possible to breed friendly rats? Or at least rats that aren't ridiculously afraid of everything??


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

lfraser06 said:


> So here's the thing with rats, especially the young ones ...... you have to work on their schedule. Maybe back off "trying" a little bit ... instead, just keep giving them opportunities to come to you. Start with calling by name, to the cage door and give them a treat. The fun part is, whatever they get used to hearing you say when you do that, will be what they respond to gong forward. For instance, in the mornings, my girls hear "wake up - it's treat time". when I get home, it's "where's my ratties at?" They learn to associate that with their treats, so they are fairly quick to respond. I have Turvy trained that if I ask if she wants to go for a walk - she runs up to my shoulder. If I ask her if she wants to go home - she runs down my shirt, back to her cage.
> Don't worry about if they take the treat and run ..... it's normal and not a reflection on you.
> 
> Remember, they are learning to trust you. For that to happen, they need you to be patient and consistent. And that happens on their schedule
> ...


We even have a rat song when we enter the room just to let them know we are there. That's the only way not to terrify them.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Tinytoes said:


> Wow, the freezing has never gone away? So they don't run from you, I misunderstood. I'm sorry they haven't come around. Some rats just never do. I wonder if it has to do with genetics. Is it possible to breed friendly rats? Or at least rats that aren't ridiculously afraid of everything??


Nope, they don't run away from us, just freeze in terror as soon as we open or come close to the cage. I too am starting to think it has something to do with genetics. The breeder we got them from said it was her second litter. I'm guessing she hasn't properly focussed on breeding on personality.

Nevertheless they are our rats and we love them regardless. The only thing we truly want for them is to not be terrified of us and everything around them all the time. We just want them to have a fun ratty life.

All the ideas and stories everyone posted so far are awesome. I just wanted to say that this community is amazing.

If anyone has that one gold star idea that we're looking for all this time I promise to send that person a ton of cute rat pictures and videos.


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

Okay, I'm going out on a limb since they are almost 6 months old now. This worked for my babies.

Gently scoop each one up with both hands, cradling him and bring him up to your face and mouth. Kiss kiss kiss, little kisses in his fur and whisper his name, tell him it's okay, then pop him up on your shoulder (if they do the shoulder). Then set him back down where ever you picked him up from. Try this over and over and over and over, day after day, week after week. No need for reward (food doesn't mean anything when they are scared). It's all about you now, and trust. You just want them to know you are not a predator. I hope it works


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

And try to pretend they aren't afraid. Treat them like they don't have a care in the world. Sometimes ya gotta fake it till ya make it. Nothing to lose, right?


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## lfraser06 (Aug 5, 2020)

TheMoekefoek said:


> We even have a rat song when we enter the room just to let them know we are there. That's the only way not to terrify them.


Just remember - any time you get the response you wanted - they get a treat. Rats, as I'm sure you've figured out, are highly food motivated. And if that song works - USE it! Sing it while interacting with them ... sing it once in a while when you're not interacting with them, just so they know you are nearby and not a threat.


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## Enne (Dec 12, 2020)

I've come under the impression that the frequency and "severity" of the freezing behavior is probably genetic. I have 3 boys, all from different litters and different parents. All raised the same way in the same place/cage.

Cobra, is the most prone to it. He's 7 months old now and still freezes from time to time, and when he does, he goes solid as a rock for up to a minute or longer. I can pet him, poke him (gently lol), hold food in front of his face and he does not budge. Total deer in headlights situation. When he's _not _frozen, he's completely tame and fine with being held/petted. He comes to the cage door when I approach, holds still to let me pick him up, etc. He likes to stash things in their food dish like crazy, but otherwise is a pretty run of the mill rat.

Kit, my youngest at 6 months old, will occasionally freeze, but only for a few seconds. Then he "snaps out of it" especially if I talk to him or gently pet him. Kit is the most "cuddly" and loves to go inside of my shirt collar and snuggle me. He doesn't have a ton of drive to do much but eat and sleep and cuddle, lol.

Kai (same age as Cobra) hardly freezes at all. He's also the largest and most bold. If he does freeze he's out of it in a moment. He also seems to have more tendencies that I'd attribute to a wild rat - burrowing, hoarding food, exploring everything he possibly can, willing and able to jump high or long distances, etc.

Usually their freezing is caused by an odd noise they aren't used to, or being startled by something. But sometimes, it comes out of nowhere. Often, Cobra will freeze and the other two will be going about their business and pay him no mind. Sometimes he even freezes with a treat in his mouth lol. I chalk it up to an instinct they are born with, and that there's not much you can do about it.

I will say, doing the picking up exercise that Tinytoes mentioned helped my rats become more hand-tame. When my rats were babies, I did a similar thing where I picked them up with both hands, gently blew warm air onto them with my mouth and spoke softly to them, then put them back down in about the span of 10-20 seconds at a time. Now I pick them up and they are very calm and relaxed when I do it.


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Tinytoes said:


> Okay, I'm going out on a limb since they are almost 6 months old now. This worked for my babies.
> 
> Gently scoop each one up with both hands, cradling him and bring him up to your face and mouth. Kiss kiss kiss, little kisses in his fur and whisper his name, tell him it's okay, then pop him up on your shoulder (if they do the shoulder). Then set him back down where ever you picked him up from. Try this over and over and over and over, day after day, week after week. No need for reward (food doesn't mean anything when they are scared). It's all about you now, and trust. You just want them to know you are not a predator. I hope it works


I am going to try this when it's time for them to free-roam later today. I'll report back with the results. 



lfraser06 said:


> Just remember - any time you get the response you wanted - they get a treat. Rats, as I'm sure you've figured out, are highly food motivated. And if that song works - USE it! Sing it while interacting with them ... sing it once in a while when you're not interacting with them, just so they know you are nearby and not a threat.


Positive reinforcement is always the way to go right? We actually give them one of their favorite treats when we sing the rat song, pumpkin seeds. They seldom take it though. Even when they come near the bars of the cage in, what looks to us anticipation, they still rarely take the treat offered and just freeze in place. We will keep using the song and rewarding them when desired behaviour is shown. 



Enne said:


> I've come under the impression that the frequency and "severity" of the freezing behavior is probably genetic. I have 3 boys, all from different litters and different parents. All raised the same way in the same place/cage.
> 
> Cobra, is the most prone to it. He's 7 months old now and still freezes from time to time, and when he does, he goes solid as a rock for up to a minute or longer. I can pet him, poke him (gently lol), hold food in front of his face and he does not budge. Total deer in headlights situation. When he's _not _frozen, he's completely tame and fine with being held/petted. He comes to the cage door when I approach, holds still to let me pick him up, etc. He likes to stash things in their food dish like crazy, but otherwise is a pretty run of the mill rat.
> 
> ...


You called your rats Cobra Kai and Kit, that's awesome  ! Cobra's behaviour more or less describes our boys. There isn't any noise or sudden movement when it's "terrorfreeze" time for them. Most of the time only one of our boys is frozen still, while the others are just going about their business. However, when the others see the frozen rat they too mimic that behaviour. I know rats are prone to being copycats of eachother, however our boys only tend to copy the "unwanted" behaviour  .

I will try a combination of Tinytoes picking up exercise and Enne's, and just like Tinytoes mentioned, 'nothing to lose, fake it till you make it'


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## TonyMom (May 24, 2021)

I had a similar experience, so I thought I would toss my two cents in the ring. My first experience with rats started out very similarly. We watched the videos, did all the research, and then we got our boys. And we just couldn’t earn their trust. The Houdini of the group just wanted to bolt, and the others wanted to hide. It felt like forcing socialization was traumatizing for them, so we resolved not to push it too hard, we enjoyed using cardboard to make their cage and roam areas more interesting and watching them explore. Sitting with them during free roam time and enjoying occasional moments of affection. Watching them romp and snuggle with each other.

THEN. They turned one. Much of the youthful need to run and roam kind of evaporated and they were suddenly happy to be with us. Sure, they still had their own personalities.. the one that was kind of grumpy and preferred to hide, he was still that way. But he wasn’t actively trying to burrow inside the furniture or escape into the walls lol. Sometimes he would even come hang out next to us, and the most affectionate of the group became even more so. We had a total of 2.5-3 years with those boys, and I treasure it 

Now we have a new set of guys, which we got from a smaller and more reputable breeder than the first. There is no doubt that they received close attention and care from the time they were born, and that they come from a line of rats that have lived that life, and they are so different. They were barely skittish at 6 weeks, and now at just past that year mark, they’ve very much settled into their own little personalities, but they are all so affectionate and comfortable to be around. They come bounding towards us like little puppies and just ooze trust and affection.

So I guess what I’m saying is.. there are so many factors. At the end of the day, you have these crazy interesting complex creatures living with you now, and even if it doesn’t go like you expected (has anyone made the kid analogy yet? LOL), they can still be incredibly rewarding buddies, and who knows what may emerge as they mature in a loving safe environment 

All the best <3


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## TheMoekefoek (May 17, 2021)

Well, I'm back and after applying Tinytoes' and Enne's suggestions I must say they've changed dramatically, and I mean that in a good way! Thank you all so much for all the lovely stories and advice. We now have completely different rats who are much more confident and actually want and love to spend time with us. Every morning and evening the boys can't wait to get outside of their cage and into the playpen. They love crawling all over us, even when there aren't treats involved. Loki and Obi-Wan also shoulder ride with me the and wife for minutes upon end and they seem interested in exploring everywhere we bring them. They no longer seem scared of household sounds (within reason ofcourse) and the terror freezing is now brought back to 3 times a week, rather than 3 times a day. They still despise cuddling and petting but that's just how they are and we love them regardless.

TLDR: THANKS EVERYONE WHO REPLIED TO THIS THREAD, OUR RATS HAVE BECOME SUCH LOVELY CURIOUS CREATURES THANKS TO ALL YOUR STORIES AND INPUT.


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## Kyea (8 mo ago)

Tinytoes said:


> Moving them from the safety of their cage is very stressful. And reaching in to catch them is not helping them learn to trust you. If you could try herding them into a fleece tube, and then move that to the small cage, they will be much less afraid. Then when they are returned to their cage, give them whatever super special treat they like, preferably a wet treat on a spoon that they have to lick off and can't run away with.
> 
> The unfortunate thing I have learned is that one scary experience can undo weeks of trust training. Everything is going fine, making progress, then something frightens them and they regress back to being fearful. Very frustrating. Takes days for them to get over it and forget, which they will.


I was using a small basket. I one one in their cage they know and love, and an identical that is their 'chariot'. And they know that if I'm holding it at the cage for them to jump into, we're going somewhere. One is perfectly happy, the other, seems like she almost wants to and just.. it's the hardest thing in the world for her to do so.


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## Tinytoes (Dec 23, 2020)

woof, who are you @successvoltage100 ?? Me thinks me smells a troll. Pay no attention. I will slay the troll ifn ya's want me to lol.


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