# Moose's immersion fail???? :(



## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, I gave immersion training my best effort on Monday, camping out in the bathroom with Moose for about 13 hours. It seemed to make him a little more submissive towards me, but we have still been keeping him housed separately from his two big brothers. Moose has continued to bite at and draw blood from my boyfriend, both inside and outside the cage. We have been letting Moose have separate playtimes, but recently started letting all three guys sniff at each other and try to get reacquainted. Moose is clearly still aggressive towards Totoro, the rat he took a chunk out of last week. He still wants to fight both Tots and Frisbee, instigates conflicts WAY more often than they do, and plays way too rough. I have noticed several red flags in Mooses behavior- he pretty much always singles out little Totoro, he seems to be trying to sniff or get up under Totoros belly ( which I read can be an indicator of one rat trying to over dominate and castrate the other rat), and he is more aggressive with other rats than humans. I am starting to give serious thought to neuteriNg Moose. I don't know that I will ever be able to trust him sleeping or living in the same cage as Totoro, because I can't even let them play together in the same large room without fear of a bad fight. I have read a lot of posts that say he might just be going through a particularly hormonal stage and will get over this, but he really does seem to be getting worse and not better. I do not want to resort to neutering, but I will, if it will improve the lives of Moose and Totoro. Arghh I just wish Moose would give me a sign that he is trying to change!! Any thoughts on whether I need to continue being patient and frustrated, or should I look into neutering? I really did try my best with immersion, and Moose is just a superrat who might be impossible to reason with


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

I talked to a vet yesterday about getting my meanie Cricket neutered (who ripped off part of Bartok's face) and he said that he'd seen rats that were neutered and still as bad as ever. Plus, it is a risk to the rat's life. If you're willing to and want to take the risk that it might not work, as well as the risk to his well-being, then why not? Just do not go into it thinking it's a fix-all. It might not fix his aggression towards Tot (which sounds a lot like how Cricket is with Bartok), but I suppose you could see how he would be with a female if you neuter him. Just a thought. Then again, he might be aggressive towards all rats.

For me, none of it is worth the risk, therefore my boy Cricket is living out the rest of his days alone in a Critter Nation unit. He's actually much happier alone. I think other rats stressed him out. By himself, he's biting me a lot less and only when I have other rats' scent on me.

I'm never going to put him in with another rat because it would be all too easy for him, being twice the size of my older boys, to kill someone. I was lucky that he ripped off part of Bartok's face and not someone's throat out... and, like I've said before, I was two feet away when it happened and there was nothing I could have done to stop it. Supervision is useless with rats as fast as lightning and twice as unpredictable.

Is Moose a Siamese?


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm not a fan of neutering, but it has it's place. Neutering can be a good thing and can help with aggression. 

Of course, I've not see how they neuter rats in recent years. I have only seen one rat immediately after a neuter. This was about 18 years ago and it wasn't at all common for a person to get their rat neutered. It was cheap and the vets were basically "practicing" their techniques. So, it was pretty bad back then. That's the main reason I'm not a fan of neutering.

My hubby wants me to get my guy neutered. I want him to give spending more time with him a chance. He only gives Armageddon about 5 minutes every 2 or 3 weeks. He gives the girls, Blue and Holly, about 25 minutes each, everyday. 

My Armageddon is the sweetest little squishy big guy. We had some rough spots, but time and patience cured that.  It only took 3 weeks to get over those rough spots. 

There's really not a "quick fix" when talking about rats and aggression. 

Here's a link about Rat Aggression. I don't know if it will help, but you might get more insight as to what you want to do. 

It also covers neutering a bit. 

http://www.ratbehavior.org/Aggression.htm#Human


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Yeah, that is really my main concern too. I would hate to chop the little dude and still have the same issues haha. FallDeere, I've been reading about your issues with Cricket, and it sounds super similar to my moose woes. It's just weird because Moose is a super tiny wanna be albino dumbo (he had a grey muzzle). He is probably 2-3 months old now, so I am reeaaallyy hoping he continues to grow up and get sweet haha who knows. Getting rid of Moose is not something we are even considering: we love the little jerk, in spite of his bad attitude. Do you let you rats play together or are you having them play separately? Moose and frisbee can get along fine, but moose just seems to dislike Totoro for some ridiculous reason. Moose is living alone, right next to the big CN, and his house is pleeeennty big enough. I just wish he could go back home to the CN :/


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Ladyfish_xx said:


> Moose is a super tiny wanna be albino dumbo (he had a grey muzzle).


That would be a Siamese.  I think there's something about poor breeding in Siameses at petstores...

Anyways, I am never going to let Cricket play with any rat ever. He seemed to get along fine with most of the boys a lot of the time, but I would still find little injuries here and there. He won't even have supervised playtime with anyone since I know bad things can happen in the blink of an eye.

I suppose it's possible our boys could grow out of it, Ladyfish... Cricket's only been like this for a month or so and he's nearly five months old now. I've promised my family that Cricket would never see another rat no matter what, though, so at most he'll stop biting me, but still be alone. It's just not worth the risk...

Kaliloca, that's a great article! I'll be looking over that a lot as tame Cricket and I try to re-introduce Bartok to Meeko and Gus Gus... I tried putting them back together for a little while and they wouldn't stop fighting.  I fear Bartok may have to be alone as well, simply because he is a good target to be picked on.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK so lets do a little progress check... From what I gather Moose is behaving well with you now. You can now safely handle him and take him from his cage. And he will play with you and come to you. If Moose were your single rat things would be generally OK...

If you have gotten this far, you are his Alpha and the immersion was successful. Let me know if I got this part wrong...

Now Moose has no clue who your boyfriend is, nor does he understand the relationship you have with those other nasty rats. As Moose's alpha you have to make the appropriate introductions. First boyfriend... You hold moose and introduce your boyfriend, moose gets to hear his voice first and sniff your boyfriend while you hold and reassure him (I mean Moose, your boyfriend is another matter). You are telling moose that your boyfriend is another subordinate member of your pack (don't so much tell your boyfriend). Then once moose lets your boyfriend touch him without biting him, you all sit down and play together. This is a 3 way interaction, by interacting with Moose and your boyfriend you are showing moose he's OK. Or like we did way back in the 1970's when we introduced a friend to our group, you are saying to Moose "It's OK, he's cool."

Now in order to be a pet rat, Moose needs to be able to accept and not attack your friends while you are there, but he may never come to love or trust humans in general. Like a one owner watch dog will have one master, and not bite the family, but he will attack burglars or strangers on sight.

The reason you went though immersion with Moose is to establish your pack alpha authority, not to make him docile in general. The reason you want to be his alpha is to take him through the introductions hands-on so you can safely intervene when the fighting goes beyond ceremonial and becomes dangerous without getting bit.

Now as to belly grooming.... where did this become testicle biting? Has Moose ever bitten another rat's testicles before? Once one rat submits to another in order to establish pack order the more dominant rat grooms the belly of his new subordinate to reward him for his compliance. Moose is always going to have a higher status than Totoro, so he's always going to groom Totoro's belly to reward his good submissive behavior.

Just like in a work place the employees don't give their bosses bonuses. The bosses give their subordinates bonuses and perks.

You define failure when your realistic objectives haven't been met and success when you reach your goals.

The goals for your first immersion was to become Moose's alpha and to bond with him and to be able to safely handle him and to have moose learn to enjoy your attention and start to communicate with you.... that's it. 

The next goal is to use your new influence to guide Moose through meeting your boyfriend and accepting him as a fellow packmate, and hopefully as his superior in rank.

The final goal is to do another immersion with you in charge to hands on manage the introductions... This is a fast moving process that takes some understanding of what your rats are doing and telling you. You have to be able to allow the introduction ceremony to proceed to it's logical conclusion of belly grooming without any rats getting killed. It takes fast on the fly judgment calls.


Let me give you some examples that might help...

Fuzzy Rat had aged poorly and was pretty obese and tired at a year and a half old. Amelia was really screwed up when we got her and stayed very compressed when we met her. Once we got her home she started running around during immersion and we realized she was very thin, but she was also a very big female rat when she stretched herself out. She could stand toe to toe with Fuzzy Rat and look eye to eye if not down on Fuzzy Rat. We were actually rather surprised at how large this little rat could unfold to and so was Fuzzy Rat. At the time Fuzzy Rat could still climb the stairs, while Amelia could fly up and down them with ease. Through the first few hours of immersion Fuzzy Rat kept her distance. Then after she saw Amelia was playing nicely with us she came down off the steps and confronted her and they boxed for a minute and I broke them up, then she tried to chase Amelia and Amelia made it perfectly clear that she wasn't backing down and stood her ground. And it was instantly clear that the little screwed up fur ball we had just adopted that was terrified of humans, had absolutely no tolerance for other rats pushing her around, and that our beloved Fuzzy Rat was badly outclassed. Whenever Fuzzy Rat approached her she stood up to her most extreme full height and stood firm. After about 3 brief skirmishes over 15 minutes Fuzzy Rat turned sideways exposing her fleshy sides to the new rat, and Amelia stood up towering over our poor old best friend and my breath escaped me..... Then something very strange happened. Amelia tapped Fuzzy Rat with a single forepaw and Fuzzy Rat just tipped over onto her side. It looked like a cow tipping event. And as soon as Fuzzy Rat rolled over Amelia immediately went to work grooming Fuzzy Rat's belly. And Fuzzy Rat just lay there and enjoyed the attention for a few minutes. When Fuzzy Rat got back up Amelia followed her around like a trained puppy dog. Two hours later both rats were sleeping in the same cage. Rat on rat immersion, the Fuzzy Rat way.

So yes, we broke up a few fights, but we didn't stop the bonding process. Fuzzy Rat didn't even join in until she saw that we had Amelia under control and that she was going to be protected by us, but when she did, first she engaged in a mock fight she couldn't possibly win, and then before she got hurt she did the submission thing and Amelia acknowledged it and did the grooming thing and introductions were over. 

Now, Fuzzy Rat is on a whole different cognitive level than Amelia. She's been stealing Amelia's food and doing the rolling over trick since we got Amelia. Fuzzy Rat basically took charge over a much stronger and faster rat by rolling over to end the fight, and then overwhelming her with persistence afterwards. Now don't get me wrong, Amelia is catching on, she's not stupid and she's not falling for her craftier sisters tricks nearly as often, but every time Amelia learns something Fuzzy Rat adapts her tactics and maintains her comfortable lifestyle. It's like having your boss wrapped around your finger. If Fuzzy Rat really gets angry with Amelia, she raises her right paw, Amelia backs off and Fuzzy Rat snaps at her. Naturally, as Amelia knows Fuzzy Rat is going to snap at her she doesn't get bit and the snap is just a communication technique. See the paw up and back off.. this isn't rats fighting this is rats communicating. Otherwise Amelia is like a big playful puppy and walks all over Fuzzy Rat like a carpet until the paw goes up.

I gave this example because you need to watch for your rats communications during immersion introductions... If Mr. Moose is out of control, you have to show him you are the boss and defend your other pack members, but when the introductions involve ceremonial fighting and grooming, you have to stand back and let the rats work out some of the problems and complete the ceremony on their own. 

When I introduced Fuzzy Rat to my part-wild rat, I knew it would be very dangerous. My part wild had been living outdoors for 5 months and had torn up my neighbor's hand when he tried to pick her up just a few days before. She was a vicious stone cold killer and even the neighborhood cats were terrified of her. So I reclined in an easy chair and did the introductions on my belly with my hands in between for fast response time. Two hours later, I crunched both exhausted rats into one little fur ball and snuggled both against my face and put them into the same cage together. My hands itched, so when I looked, I found hundreds of tiny little pin pricks in neat pairs all over them. I suppose I had been mock bitten countless times, but as both rats respected me as their alpha neither dared break my skin.

Now, I raised both rats from pups, and I wouldn't recommend anyone doing an immersion introduction on their belly with two rats they didn't completely trust... but immersion introductions work. It took a while but both rats finally realized I didn't want them to fight and I was the boss... So the rats got along great in their cage, but mock fought when they were out and I would referee and the matter finally got settled, when Fuzzy Rat finally bit my part wild in the butt one night and my part wild flipped Fuzzy Rat over and sliced two neat holes, one on either side of Fuzzy Rat's trachea to make her point. 

After the immersion introduction, My wild child was being nice to Fuzzy Rat as a courtesy to me, she even let Fuzzy Rat overgroom her. So Fuzzy Rat got emboldened and kept pushing the envelope... In all reality my wild type was deadly lethal all along and once she made her point, Fuzzy Rat never pushed her around again. Even after immersion introductions rats will fight, they just won't hurt each other as they belong to the same pack. 

Now if a lethal stone cold killer like my wild child could restrain herself from killing her annoying roomie, because her alpha didn't want her to, Moose can get with the program too.

And btw, as well socialized as my part-wild rat was to us, and she was kiddie safe for my 5 year old daughter, if she didn't know you and you weren't properly introduced with myself or my daughter present, and you tried to pick her up, she would have sent you straight to the hospital. Well socialized does not mean docile, nor does it mean Moose is ever going to like humans in general.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

FallDeere,

Once all of your rats are socialized and bonded to you, they are still going to squabble. That's normal and you can't be overprotective.... Keep the example of my part wild in mind... She could have killed Fuzzy Rat in seconds any time she wanted. She just didn't want to because she understood the Fuzzy Rat was a pack member. This didn't mean she didn't pierce Fuzzy Rats throat... just that she didn't rip her trachea out. And with a vicious rat that was a very big win in itself.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Rat Daddy said:


> FallDeere,
> 
> Once all of your rats are socialized and bonded to you, they are still going to squabble. That's normal and you can't be overprotective.... Keep the example of my part wild in mind... She could have killed Fuzzy Rat in seconds any time she wanted. She just didn't want to because she understood the Fuzzy Rat was a pack member. This didn't mean she didn't pierce Fuzzy Rats throat... just that she didn't rip her trachea out. And with a vicious rat that was a very big win in itself.


Cricket nearly killed Bartok. I'm not being overprotective: I'm being just the right about of protective. Part of Bartok's face was ripped off. I saw muscle and bone. I won't risk that again. That wasn't the first injury, either. They fought every day for a month and Cricket emerged with simply a few nicks in his ear while Bartok had his back slashed, Gus Gus's leg was cut and his ear was sliced in half, and Meeko's belly was bleeding.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

FallDeere,

How is Cricket with you? Does he respect you? Does he enjoy your company? Can you handle him easy and comfortably? Can you control him with commands outside the cage?


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

It's hormonal and personality related. He's a naturally skittish rat that is being made 10 times worse with hormones (he was fine just over a month ago, albeit timid, but loveable, until the hormones hit). He knows I'm the Alpha and knows biting me just gets him in trouble. He's not going back in with any rat ever, Rat Daddy, and nothing will change that.

This topic is about Moose, though, and I was just offering my experience up so that Ladyfish can use it to make informed decisions. The Cricket drama is long over and decided.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

FallDeere,

Although I believe that many of the hormonal aggression situations are really socialization issues where hormones and environment are working on each other to aggravate and escalate the situation... that still leaves the other cases where the rat has a chemical imbalance that no conventional therapy is going to fix. 

I worked in a senior ward of an old mental hospital back in the 1970's and many of the patients were there for over 50 years. Even with modern drugs, they were never rejoining society. 

Your the trainer on the ground, you have to make the calls and take the risks. If I were there I might be the very first one to agree with you. Either way, I'm not questioning your decision just curious as to how you got there.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

This is how I got there (don't look at the last two pictures if you're extremely squeamish)

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Fall_Deere/Mischief/IMG_1740_zpsac6c12af.jpg
http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Fall_Deere/Mischief/IMG_1745_zps59f51f34.jpg
http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Fall_Deere/Mischief/IMG_1748_zps3040bc6e.jpg

The last two pictures are of Bartok's most recent and final injury inflicted by Cricket. I wasn't able to get a good picture (taking pictures with your phone in a moving vehicle of a very hyper rat is apparently not easy...), but a good part of the bottom of his face was missing. The vet said he thought some muscle was missing as well. The vet was speechless when he saw it. He had never really seen anything so bad on a rat.

I just hope my experience can help someone prevent it in their rats.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not squeamish, but those injuries look nasty, after what my part wild did to my hand by accident and seeing the blood dripping from the bathtowel wrapped around my neighbor's hand after she tore it up, I know exactly the kind of damage a rat can do and how fast it can inflict it. My part wild could get half a dozen mock bites on my face before I could swat her off. If she wasn't playing, I would have been hospitalized and she was only 6 to 8 weeks old at the time.

My neighbor was x-delta forces, just back from Iraq, he was actually impressed with how fast she tore up his hand, and a little bit too ashamed to admit he got bested by a rodent to go to the hospital... otherwise I might have had a big buck bill to pay that Sunday morning. Really sad, the poor fellow died of unknown causes a few months after the run in with my rat he was only 24 years old and left behind 3 kids, 4 pitbulls and a wife. Really a sad ending for an American hero. Our wild child died in a tragic freak accident within a week of my neighbor's passing.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Alright, rat daddy, more info is probably needed haha. I wouldn't call Moose a particularly happy member of my pack; he might be a little more submissive, but he is still pretty much doing his own thing. He will still nip at me if he feels like it; I think I am more aware of my movements than my boyfriend, and I tend to spook Moose less. Moose ABSOLUTELY knows who Alex, my bf is. We live together, Alex chose and bought him and is always home and has more opportunities to interact with Moose because I work a lot. So it's not an issue of Alex being a stranger, because he is as much a part of Moose's life as I am. Alex tends to grab Moose more and try to force him to accept that he can't be a bully and can't bite, whereas I tend to baby Moose more. Moose does seem to have regressed a bit since our immersion attempt. Whereas I could easily reach in his cage and pet him in a box on Tuesday, now I tend to wait until he comes to the door, because he will try to bite me, and that is just annoying and makes it hard to grab him and let him know I am still the alpha. Also, I think it is worth mentioning that when we first got Moose, he was easy to handle in his solo cage. We moved him into the big guys cage, and he was fine. Then, all of a sudden, he decided he was king of the cage, and got cage aggressive. Same story now. He was fine for a couple of days in his new solo home, then got a little cocky and decided he was once again king of this new turf. Not too sure how to set him straight, since he does live alone for the moment...As for your Fuzzy Rat and Amelia's initial behaviors- I see some big differences between them and my Moose and Totoro. Whereas your girls seemed to ultimately psych each other out, mine has actually escalated to real, fairly serious physical violence and damage. Amelia did not kill Fuzzy Rat, but from what I understand, she also only used a reasonable amount of normal 'aggression' to show Fuzzy Rat that she COULD, and they needed to get along. My main issue with this comparison to my boys is that Totoro has NEVER even once attempted to fight or dominate Moose. Totoro was here first, but he doesn't mind being the bottom guy on the totem pole. Moose takes it too far. Where Frisbee can clearly be the boss of T, But gently and brotherly so, Moose feels the need to draw blood, to terrify and attack a completely submissive and helpless little guy. Moose doesn't seem to know when to back down. He gets worked up over nothing, poofs up and assumes a defensive stance, trying to bite and fight anything that approaches him. I am keeping Moose alone for now, which I think you agree with? We are giving him a ridiculous amount of attention and Special Treats, and trying to make him understand that he is our subordinate, But a very loved little subordinate, just like Fris and Tots. He is being handled in and outside of his cage, A LOT, whether he likes it or not, and if he nips/bites, he is pinned until he gives up. We are doing our very best to help this crazy little rat, I just don't quite understand how Moose respecting me will help him get over what I see as his general dislike of Totoro. I know you might disagree about this, and you are definitelyMore experienced here, but I have seen Moose interact with both Frisbee and Totoro, and it really does seem like he wants to seriously harm Totoro. I am just too in love with both rats to let anything bad (worse) happen to Totoro,So they are staying completely separate for now.(Haha yeah idk about the castration thing. I think I am over researching and becoming a sort of passive hypochondriac. Moose is not grooming T's belly, though. T is NOT comfortable or okay with The way moose interacts with him. It is probably not a case of a zombie rat trying to castrate T, but I do think he is trying to cause some damage. But yes, I am probably paranoid about some of this!)I do very much appreciate all of your input.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

And FallDeere, yeah, I am seeing similarities in the severity of injuries between your Bartok and my Totoro. Totoro is missing a large chunk of nose and flesh. My vet said he has definitely seen worse (he is one of the people who has warned me against the forced castration by angry rat teeth horror...) , but he certainly agreed that Totoros injury was pretty severe. Your poor little ratty!  he and Totoro should hang out haha


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Ladyfish_xx said:


> And FallDeere, yeah, I am seeing similarities in the severity of injuries between your Bartok and my Totoro. Totoro is missing a large chunk of nose and flesh. My vet said he has definitely seen worse (he is one of the people who has warned me against the forced castration by angry rat teeth horror...) , but he certainly agreed that Totoros injury was pretty severe. Your poor little ratty!  he and Totoro should hang out haha



They definitely should get together. XD

Seriously: your last post sounds _exactly _like Cricket and Bartok. ;_; Bartok is apparently the most submissive rat of the group and wouldn't hurt a flea and Cricket decided he was the weakest and picked on him most especially, though he fought with everyone from time to time.

Bartok is healing up well, though! =D I'll never forget seeing so much muscle and bone... Those pictures really do not do the injury justice, but I'm kinda glad because I don't want to relive that horror. I saw his _jaw_... his JAW! D=


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The three things I remember from 4 years of college majoring in psychology when all of the negative reinforcement research was being done on rats are:

1 Immediacy, punishment has to happen immediately when the bad behavior occurs, otherwise the rat has no idea why he's getting picked on.

2 Consistency, when the rat does the same bad thing the same worse thing happens to him.

3 Severity, the nastier the negative reinforcement is, the more a rat will avoid it. Now there are reasonable sane limits here were negative reinforcement becomes animal abuse. But think about what Moose did to T. Alpha rats can be particularly severe with their subordinates.

You have to do this during immersion and stay consistent afterwards.

Normally and with normal rats you don't do negative reinforcement. But with screwed up rats, you do what it takes to get through. And some rats are loathe to change.

You are absolutely right not to put Moose together with the other rats yet. He's apparently still stuck on trying to take charge and be dominant and you have to break him from that idea. And it has to be permanent.

Now, I hate to put it this way, but a biting rat is not a pet, it's an insurance liability and it's not something you want to pawn off on someone else. Eventually, there's only one thing you can do with a rat that you can't fix, so this is a serious problem for Moose.

The only rat that ever bit me, discovered that my peculiar reflex reaction sent her flying into a wall, by the time she slid down to the ground she was resolved never to test my reflexes in that manner again. Basically something sufficiently unpleasant needs to happen to Moose the second he acts up. I'm thinking something like a measured fly swatter effect. Every time he goes to bite something bad instantly happens... Remember, just seconds after he stops being nasty, is too late, you got to make the negative reinforcement coincide with the bad behavior, and you have got to get his attention, and it has to happen every time he's being bad.

Moose's immersion showed promise... it's what's keeping me from believing he's a lost cause. If he were completely whacked out on hormones or otherwise screwed up beyond repair, you wouldn't have seen any improvement over the session. 

Now I can't see what's going on there... but if things are getting worse, are you letting them get worse? When Moose pushes you are you backing off? Because if you back off he's just going to push harder. Moose most likely liked the way things were and inch by inch, he's going to try to get his way again. So he has to get the same kind of instant attention he got during immersion.

Remember, if he's being nice and civil, you be nice and friendly. You want him to think of you as his best friend, but you also want him to know you aren't putting up with his bad behavior... If he thinks you just always beat up on him, then you will screw him up worse.

I don't know how your pinning down works, but if it takes you more than a second after he's been bad to pin him down, he has no clue why you are doing it. And if you are waiting for him to calm down before you punish him, he's got to be thinking it's his being calm you are discouraging. I watched my 5 year old daughter working with our rats, when the rat did something she didn't like she just head bopped it on the spot with her open hand immediately. Now keep in mind she was 5 years old and had small hands and didn't apply any serious force... but the technique worked amazingly well and all of our rats still loved my daughter more than me and I'm the nice guy.

When Moose challenges you, even a little he's got to get the right message back that it's a very bad idea. With pink eyed rats, I give them the benefit of the doubt, I talk first, but if he knows it's me and that isn't OK with him, no more fooling around.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, I think you are probably hitting the nail on the head with our pinning Moose not being a direct enough punishment. I know I have tried, and I'm sure Alex has too, a sort of bopping/swatting thing when Moose initially bites or nips, and it mainly our gut reaction out of anger. We have of course never HIT the dude, never caused any damage, but it just seems to terrify Moose and he will either assume a defensive stance, or back away into a corner or hide and look pitiful. It's awfully pathetic when he gets in trouble for playing too rough, gets reprimanded, and then goes and looks ashamed and terrified in his cage or on the couch. He really does seem to regret what he's done, but I'm sure that's not actually the case, but I don't know. You'd think he would stop repeating bad behaviors if he truly regretted and felt bad about them. Our vet has said many things that echo your advice, and at T's follow up appointment this Thursday, I guessI will ask if he has any experience with similar situations. He just kept telling me has seen way worse rats and worse injuries...I'm sure those rats didn't start out that bad haha, definitely trying to prevent Moose from becoming another one of his horror stories!! I guess at this point we just need to figure out something Moose hates that is quicker than pinning. I've read about people just using a little spray bottle with water, maybe I'll give that a shot, can't hurt. Or perhaps an exorcism is still in order.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I just found a lump under Amelia's arm... I've been somewhat distracted today... I haven't forgotten you and Moose, but two for two rats going down with tumors has me somewhat preoccupied.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

So sorry to hear that about Amelia  I'll be thinking about you and your much loved girls!


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## RosesRufflesandRats (Apr 25, 2013)

Rat daddy: I just have to say, you are the Cesar Milan of rats!


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