# I feel like an idiot



## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Very few on here may know that i obtained two young bucks 5 weeks of age at the start of Nov ...well a week and 4 days after quarentine I decided to introduce them to my older 6 month old bucks and they where accepted straight away ,no fights ,no squeaks nothing bad at all and i was very pleased with how well it went then a few days later i started to notice that they big fella's where interested in one of the little bucks Ice .At first i just thought that they where chasing him for dominance or play so left it for that day then the next day again i seen them chasing Ice around ...hmmm i thought to myself as i went to go check him out 

my heart sunk when i found out that he was a she !! I panicked , I wasn't prepared for this and I didn't have any friends for her and knew she would have to live alone and hoping so much that she was not pregnant .


It has been a few weeks since i seperated her from the males and i'm starting to notice a distinct belly shape to her but i can't be certain she is defo preggers but I have everything cosy for her and from the day i noticed the boys chasing her she is due next week around the 8th .I am very nervous since she is rather young and i've never raised a litter .I'm researching like crazy and making sure Ice gets extra goodies and food .She has a nesting box and loads of nesting material ,the cage is a ground floor level and quite small (i couldn't find a bigger one )

the only downside to this is Ice is still alone and i can't find a female companion for her anywhere even petshops don't seem to sell any does but I know if i suspect her to be pregnant then it's probably best she be left alone ...perhaps if she is indeed preggers i may just well have some does in there to keep .

but i thought i would share my stupidity on not being able to tell a young buck from a young doe and what i now have to deal with ! I am going to start weighing her and see if she gains the steady weight ratties do when carrying .My poor Icey  I feel so bad about what I caused but it's happened now and I will do all I can to help her .I will try and get a photo of her jellybelly but her nipples are not promnient which may suggest she isn't ? specially if she is due next week .


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## Batman (Sep 11, 2013)

I had two females who had accidentally got pregnant. If she is pregnant she needs to be alone so she can do her thing with the babies give her some extra protein by either baby formula or Kitty milk. Make sure she has lots of stuff so she can nest my lita and gimchi loved old clothes etc.

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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

aww i was just reading your thread about your babah's <3 congrats on the little ones and sorry about those who weren't meant for this world  i always get sad when a few never make it .I have had litters of rabbits so i'm hoping ratties are similar .

I have been giving her boiled egg and puppy canned meat .I do have puppy milk (i just a week ago rescued a puppy from Romania lol so i have a lot to care for at the moment! ) I shall look at getting baby formula if she can't have puppy milk .She has tons of nesting material , a very deep litter of carefresh and some stuff that looks like strings of newspaper i got from petshop ,she has a box in the cage where she can hide in but she has chosen to make a nest in the corner (typical lol ) I shall put in some strips of fleece and tissue but i can't be certain if she really is pregnant at this moment since she is rather young it's kinda hard to see the pear shape but i do think i see it and i swear i felt something moving within her but it could of just been me being paranoid .


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## Batman (Sep 11, 2013)

Well sometimes they will nest early gimchi didn't nest until the night before and lita well she nested a lot I'm warning you it can get nerve racking waiting for babies I would check all the time and I was like have your babies then they look at me like I was weird. Maybe take a pic of her and people can tell you if she's preg

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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

My camera is that bad if i took a photo it'd come out a blur ball .I did get this photo though during weighing her ,she don't look too fat/pear shaped but she is so small (fits right into the palm of my hand still ) and is young , it's hard to say and a bad angle plus she grew 2 heads in this one lol .


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Has she been separate for more than 21 days? 


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

I got them on the 7th Nov , quarentined for a week and a half so was put in with the older males on 17th Nov ,date i noticed chasing around was around the 19th Nov ,seperated 20th Nov
counting 21 days from 20th would be roughly 10th Dec ( i may of misscounted that lol ) 

so no not been 21days yet


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

and now i realise i shouldn't of said she has been seperated for a few weeks LOL it's one day away from being that few weeks being week 2 :'D sorry !


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

December 11th she should have her kits. Since that is entirely probable, she is likely getting bigger because of it.


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Okay will note it down on the calander so i know what to look for ,everything is set up for kits whether she is pregnant or not and she will be weighed everyday from now on .


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

There's still time yet to try galastrop, this is a drug that is reliable in causing mum to reabsorbed the babies and is normally available from UK vets. A lot of people are against it but there are so many unwanted rats from bad backgrounds in the country and she is ababy herself, to young to be facing motherhood. It may be still possible to spray her to a that way she doesn't have to go through the hardship of early motherhood and she could move in with your boss when she is healed up.


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

do you mean Galastop ? the stuff used to stop phantom pregnancies in dogs ? is that not dangerous to use on a rat !? o__O specially if she isn't pregnant ? I do have Galastop as i have an old dog that gets phantom pregnancies but i do not want to cause harm to my rat and i'm also a bit pro-life but i can understand the reason of not allowing her to have kits but if it where a small litter i'd probably keep them all (; i had planned on keeping 1 male to go in with my other males and 2 female to keep her company but she is young (she's around 9 weeks old ) so idk  i'm so confused on what would be best -rolls around-


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

do you have more information about using this on rats and it's risks / side-effects as it has side-effects even on dogs so i dare think what it could do to a young rat.

i can understand the reason of not allowing her to have kits for she is only 9 weeks old and a baby herself but it may be too late and the babies devloped enough for me to consider them as not just blobs forming in the belly (she is due next week )

there is also a big chance that she is not pregnant as she is not fat fat like most would be around this time.

I had planned on keeping 3 of the babies (2 females and 1 male ) as the momma is completly alone so keeping 2 of her daughters sounded nice but i'd hate to see such a large litter and her being unable to cope...

hmm i really don't know what to do  

what do everyone else think?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Can you run her to the vet? They can determine pregnancy yea or nay and talk about spay. 

Otherwise, unless you can honestly manage to care for over ten rats (assume she has 12 and you can't rehome them) then you need to not only think about it. If quality of life is poor and such it'll be the better option. Just think about pregnancy emergencies, or all your rats getting ill at once. Could you afford it? 
Realistically, can you rehome babies? 


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## Ratty_Mama2 (Apr 13, 2013)

That's a really tough decision. on here, everyone will give you different answers so I would suggest going with your gut. She is very young to be having babies, but also, there can be side effects to Galastop, so at this point, its really up to you. Good luck, and keep us updated.


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## Ratty_Mama2 (Apr 13, 2013)

But yeah I would suggest taking her to the vet.


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## SarahEden (Mar 5, 2013)

I got a female that turned out to be pregnant and she had 10 babies, I was also hoping for a small litter but no such luck. I am going to say if you don't really have much money, you will definitely want to abort the litter. I didn't expect it to be as expensive as it is. (maybe cuz I spoil them and take really good care of them I don't know  ) But they will be 3 weeks old tomorrow and go through a ridiculous amount of food... I have 14 rats all together now, my 3 adult males, my mama and the 10 babies and it is getting rough being able to afford to feed them all proper food.


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## Pandandelion (Oct 20, 2013)

You need to be prepared for her having a large litter; even if she does wind up having a small one, what are you going to do if she has a large on? It's better to be prepared for the worst rather than banking on what you want.
You also need to take into account her health and the health of the babies. What is going to happen if she does give birth to them, considering she's so young? Could this cause health problems for her? What about the babies? Will they be born healthy?
Also, are you prepared to raise babies? You can't always put young rats with older ones immediately and you also need to separate the males from the female babies when they reach reproductive maturity. You might not be able to put them with older males at this point, either. Do you have suitable housing for all the separate babies? 
What about time? Are you able to devote enough time to their care, especially at such a young age? Do you feel comfortable raising babies, with their dietary needs? What about the cages, is the bar spacing small enough so that babies can't squeeze out? 

There's a lot to consider about keeping these babies and even though you think you can do it, it's best to be fully prepared.
I'm sorry if this came off a bit harsh, too; just trying to play devil's advocate to make sure you're sure of your decision!


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## SarahEden (Mar 5, 2013)

That's the other thing too is spare cages. I had to go buy 2 new cages to be prepared for if babies don't get rehomed.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Ratatosk said:


> do you have more information about using this on rats and it's risks / side-effects as it has side-effects even on dogs so i dare think what it could do to a young rat.
> 
> i can understand the reason of not allowing her to have kits for she is only 9 weeks old and a baby herself but it may be too late and the babies devloped enough for me to consider them as not just blobs forming in the belly (she is due next week )
> 
> ...


Theres a lot of information and discussion here on both the ethics and how safe it is to use http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13514

The trouble with young girls is they tend to have bigger litters on average, if you keep them you could look at the rat tailz forum, it has a fair few scottish members and are fairly good at helping rehome babies, but if theres time I would honestly try the galastop. 9 weeks is a real baby, and i've seen rats whove had kittens at this age whilst there still growing fast themselves, pregnancy takes its tole on them and whilst you can often help with the right nutiriton some really struggle and get quite thin. Pretty much all of them go on to have stunted growth and never reach there full size, and to be honest the mental thing would bother me more than the physical. One of the reasons we leave litters until around 9-12 months in my breeding team is to give the rats chance to be kittens, play and grow up at there own rate. I currently have 2 boys who are a few weeks older than your girl and they are so much kittens, playful and bouncy, a mum rat doesnt get to to that anymore and she has to grow up fast.

In terms of if you decide to try the galastop or spay then it should be doable to find her a couple of friends, you could check out the fancy rats forum, it has a rescue rat section by area, the rat tailz forum may also be worth checking out. Also where abouts are you in scotland, there is a scottish rat club who may be able to help you find breeder rats or rescues, or one of my friends from Hawothorne Stud is based in Glasgow so not too far, i can vouch for her rats. I am not sure if shes got any available kittens right now though, however i know shes going to a show in newcatle this weekend (as am i lol) and would probably help rats get up to you (via a rat train) if you could find some in a short time frame.


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Thank you for the information everyone ,I shall have a look at it and discuss again with the family .My mum is truly against terminanting and was quite disgusted at my idea which made the other family members agree with her and shame me for even raising that question .Ice is my mums rat as I only have males in room (to prevent more unexpected litters) so ultimately it is her choice to make but I will pester her once more later tonight when i get more solid information about it .

I must point out at this time that I used to breed french lop rabbits and got some unexpected litters from them (I had 3 litters all born around the same time at one point ) but a few years ago stopped and rehomed most my rabbits to be retired from breeding and become a loved pet as the demand on big rabbits slowed down and it just didn't feel right anymore,we have 24 pets currently and most are rescues so i am prepared to raise a large litter and can fund to do so (I have a few indoor rabbit cages that i can convert the lid to have smaller mesh if needed ,I have leopard geckos so always have a spare heatmat and thermostat around and have Axolotl's so have pipet's spare for any feedings so that is sorted ) but as with all unexpected litters you hope for a smaller one to make life just that little bit easier.

My main concern was indeed about Ice and the complications that birthing at such a young age may cause and i'm currently reading as much as i can .Spaying and Birthing both have risks and i'm still not keen on using something made for to stop false pregnances as an abortion for a rat ,it just seems rather odd (but i've yet to read the information ) .She is a gentle soul ,very calm and acts nothing like a kit (and her brother Fire is also very chilled but not so keen on handling ) and Ice's mum was also young when she had her kits and there was another female there that looked even younger that also had a litter house in the same cage with both male and female kits all there still, Ice is small for her age so i do wonder if her kits will grow to be even smaller (though the two fathers are huge hunka rats ) .

I am taking my puppy to the vet today so I will see if I can fit in for her to see Ice as well and again Thank you everyone for the information.

Ice is currently nesting like crazy and looks much more pear-shaped ,she gained 3grams since yesterday so i'm wondering if she may be due sooner than i thought but we will see what the vet says.


I had been put on the waiting list for 2 bucks from Hawthorne but they where all resevered by the time i got to look at the avalible litters lol but I agree she has some lovely rats and a great breeding ethics.


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh I also don't work as I have disabilities so I have all the time in the world to care for little ones and make sure they are handled .I think it would be nice again to raise a litter but of course I do feel so very sorry for Ice for making her go through this,afterall it is my fault for being unable to tell that she was a she untill it was too late (and i was told it was super easy to tell a rats gender from a young age which made me feel even worse lol )


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

If you'd like to read a little scare about litters, you should look at my thread about Bijou and her babies. I adopted her when she was pregnant and I didn't know what "high-white" was at the time. She had 11 babies, 1 was still born, 2 were deformed and passed away a couple days later. The rest grew up, but 2 have Megacolon and need medications, special food, and special procedures to keep them comfortable and happy. Luckily I am just a college student and not working, so I am able to be home to help them more often since they need to be checked on and helped about every 2 hours or so. They won't live long, I have talked to other more experienced people about MC and one said that her boy lived to be 9 months. My 2 are nearing the 5 month mark, and I feel so worried for them, I hope they are able to live a long time before they need to be pts. They're both such wonderful rats...

Anyway, if anything I hope my experiences helped make other people more careful about their rats and accidental pregnancies (ESPECIALLY with rats taht have the "high white" genetic) and I really learned a lot from posting everything on this forum. Watching the babies grow up from day 1 has been really rewarding and I loved it, and I have some of the world's best rats now since they've all known me and have been used to letting me hold them since the day they were born. If you keep a few, you will be very happy with them. The hardest part is deciding which ones you want to keep and which ones you have to rehome. Keep in mind that girls have a 75% of getting mammary tumors and need surgery to have them removed. If you spay them it will make the chances of mammary specific tumors almost 0.

The point is, I had no idea things could go so wrong when I adopted the sweet little preggo rat, so you really need to be able to prepare for the worst if you can. Rats almost always lose a baby or two after birth, especially if they are young, so just be prepared for that. It's good that you can spend so much time with them at home, they are wonderful little things and you will be so excited when you hear their little tiny "eep eep eeps!". Best of luck! Spend a lot of time spoiling and loving your girl now because some girls are very protective of their babies. If she trusts you and is happy with you, you have a much better chance that she will be ok with you touching the babies and you won't get bit. Be sure to please post pictures, we all would love to see babies!


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Yes I read your thread and by goodness what stress you have endured ! -hug- . High white is not possible in UK so i know there is no chance of that .My girl is classed as a Roan but you are right accidental litters can be handfull and anything can happen so it IS best to prepare for the worse case possibility which I am prepared for just won't stop me worrying about everything haha 

with breeding my rabbits we had some peanuts and dad and daughter where one of the oopsie litters (the father was nutorious for escaping ) and she had healthy babies or at least looked healthy but a few weeks in I woke up to 2 dead and over the weeks they all passed away .I remember keeping nearly a whole litter near the end of our breeding adventure because no one wanted any rabbits ,I kept them all till each one found a home and left us with 3 does and 1 buck who a year on also got sold .

Are rats harder to home than rabbits ? I am willing to keep them all (if i can find a large cage ) till they find homes but wasn't sure if they where more difficult to sell or adopt out .


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I live near big cities, in a fairly well trafficked area of the US.
Out of the 13 babies my rat had (actually had 14, one died) I rehomed 5 and that was 4 hours away. The only interest I get is from out of state and usually they dont think the drive is worth it and give up (with me willing to drive 3 hours).


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

oh dear that doesn't sound like fun! sorry to hear of the struggle  

I am willing to keep them all till they find homes even if it takes a year but it would of been nice to have them all loving homes lined up like i did with my rabbits ( a waiting list ) 
I do have 2 possible owners lined up if she does have her babies 


and on the note of abortion ,I do think it is too late to terminate she looks like she swallowed a smallish sized pinball and is nesting like crazy and seemed a little unsettled , I will have to have the vet on speedial incase of any complications and i've given her some extra protein boost just a few mins ago (some puppy meat and a tiny bit of boiled egg ) .I couldn't get her to the vet but i did talk to the vet when i took my puppy and she had never heard of using Galstop for terminating a pregnancy in rats and adviced me not to use something with no soild information ,she did offer me to spay her once she's had her kits but the vet did say she sounds far into the pregnancy and really at the end of the day it is our choice but my mum has decided not to and I agree as i could not find solid information on it (the link never said anything about terminating so late into a pregnancy and wasn't very professionally spoken ? i had hoped it was a vet report or findings and not a discussion thread ) but she is no small animal expert (the vet that does exotic pets wasn't in ) .She did say to phone in or come straight to surgeory if any issues arise .

Going to get the spare cages in from the hut to get a good scrub down and mesh covering the larger lid bars (they are the small plastic indoor rabbit cages )
Just going to research all i can and in worse case scenrio how to raise orphaned pinkies (though i know how diffuclt that can be having failed once with a runt rabbit that was rejected )


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

High white is possible in the uk as is megacolon, just the well bred lines have bred it out, its still in pet shop and rodent farm stock unfortunately, however you should have a good idea from your boys and girl of the chances.

I think its probably worth sharing a few other risks with you for your mum from mine and my friends breeding experiences its worth knowing,every litter has its heartbreaks

My first litter, 5 babies born but a lot of blood and when I checked one was stillborn and not fully formed, another clearly a runt and the only boy, I lost him the next day, 3 girls survived but as I only keep boys I said good bye to them and they went to my good friend and breeding partner

My second litter, a perfect litter of 6, 2 were red eyed dilite or topaz babies, they were wonderful and such a joy, then at 4.5 weeks old one of the perfect baby topazs didnt come to great me at the cage door, I found him dieing in a hammock of a digestive issue, he passed away in my hands whilst I was on the phone trying to get him help. Probably my worst breeding experience to date, it still upsets me now.

My third litter was big, 13 babies born earlier than expected. Mum was wonderful but I kept finding 2 babies out of the nest, I would put them back in with her to warm up and feed but over the next 3 days they faded and died.

It can also effect mum to, one of my breeding team mated a lovely doe, she really glowed in pregnancy and settled down to nest. Birthing was bad, there were several large babies born dead, one stuck half in, half out of her which my friend removed. She was still in labour with no baby passing a few hours later, she was rushed to the emergency vet, what followed was 8 hours battling for her life, she made it after an emergwncy spay, all babies were dead. It cost my friend over 500 pounds, cheap for 8 hours out of hours vets

Another friend wasnt so lucky, just this month she lost a doe who didnt appear and difficulty at all, just a bit quiet and running a day lr so late for birth and she suddenly died.

These are all rats in the prime of tnere lives with exceptional health records from familys with good birthing record, whislt the last 2 are not that common they happen regularly, loosing a few babies in a large litter is pretty much standard though and loosing them later on does happen to. Im sure you saw the same in rabbits to


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Make sure to have some sort of artificial source of heat. That was a big problem, as mama rats will often split a large litter into two piles. You'll need to warm the pile she doesn't lay on. A heatig pad on low under the cage under half the nest works fine. 


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

Ah i did not know that ! all websites i had looked at said there was no high white in UK lines . The person I got Ice and Fire from where from breeders but they never had any paperwork (do good breeders have paperwork like with rabbits ? ) and i honestly think they where new to breeding as they could not sex the babies and didn't know what a buck or doe was  untill i told them ...which made me want to walk away and probably should of but those cute rat faces sucked me in and they had a lot of kits ,it looked like they where struggling to sell so i took them /shot for doing wrong.

The stories do sound similar to what we have faced in the past with our rabbits , we have never lost a doe (though we had one prolapse ) we have owned so many pets throughout our lives that loss does not seem to affect us like it would with most (i have been called cold because of my lack of feeling towards death ) Our vet is literally a few minute drive from us and we know our vet very well and they tend to charge us pennies .I have some emergency funds set up but if it will cost around 500 pound for an emergency I will put some more past this Monday but it won't make 500 lol will probably have to let everyone know that if something does happen they must be willing to chip in as they are partly the reason i'm not terminating .


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Make sure to have some sort of artificial source of heat. That was a big problem, as mama rats will often split a large litter into two piles. You'll need to warm the pile she doesn't lay on. A heatig pad on low under the cage under half the nest works fine.
> 
> 
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I own Leopard geckos thus always have a spare heatmat and thermostat to control the temperture  I'm just looking for information about what temp it should be set at for them .


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

They don't sound like an experienced or particularly good breeder. Sexing rats is far easier than rabbits, you can get a good idea very early on but once the pigment starts coming through soon followed by the males testicle and the females nipples showing then even without comparing its easy. It is a little harder when they are fully furred adults but still very easy to do. In terms of paperwork it does vary a little but pretty much all established breeders I know give a family tree, often a care sheet or pack, contract and kitten pack to, not to mention life long support. 

In terms of the 500, honestly the vet could and probably should have charged more than that, they were massively generous really. A good back up is a rat emergency credit card, which you can pay off later. 

Id be cautious with a heart pad unless it's really cold, babies ovetheating is actually one of the biggest killers when they are very young as they canr regulate there own body heat. They can survive a lot longer cold than warm. Just add lots of nesting material and see how she goes. If she does split them and one side is being neglected then I'd move her into a smaller space with them. Normally though when they are split she divides her time nicely and builds a big nest to look after the others


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

Ratatosk said:


> Yes I read your thread and by goodness what stress you have endured ! -hug- . High white is not possible in UK so i know there is no chance of that .My girl is classed as a Roan but you are right accidental litters can be handfull and anything can happen so it IS best to prepare for the worse case possibility which I am prepared for just won't stop me worrying about everything haha
> 
> with breeding my rabbits we had some peanuts and dad and daughter where one of the oopsie litters (the father was nutorious for escaping ) and she had healthy babies or at least looked healthy but a few weeks in I woke up to 2 dead and over the weeks they all passed away. I remember keeping nearly a whole litter near the end of our breeding adventure because no one wanted any rabbits ,I kept them all till each one found a home and left us with 3 does and 1 buck who a year on also got sold .
> 
> Are rats harder to home than rabbits ? I am willing to keep them all (if i can find a large cage ) till they find homes but wasn't sure if they where more difficult to sell or adopt out .


I forgot that it is much more rare in the UK. You all are so lucky! High whites are so beautiful most of the time, I wish we had healthy HW lines in the US! That's so sad about your rabbit kits, but it happens I suppose, especially in such small animals like rabbits and rats.  

In my experience in my area, it is much easier to rehome rats than it is rabbits. Due to life situations changing (kinda long story), I have to rehome my rabbits as soon as I can since they have to currenly stay with a friend whose apartment doesn't allow pets. Both are spayed/neutered and healthy and well taken care of throughout their life, social, friendly etc, and I have been looking for homes for them to live separately since July. Maybe it has to do with them being adults, one is 6 is one is 4, so they still have at least 5+ years left to live, but they are not cute little babies anymore. I've only have 1 inquiry and that was from a high school student who would not be able to care for her properly and who admitted she would have to probably rehome her once she moved to college in a year. But for my rat litter, I kept 4 and rehomed 4, and I found some AWESOME homes for them. I adopted out a pair of boys to a member on this forum, and a pair of girls to someone else and I'm very happy with the homes I found for them. They had homes lined up before they were even old enough to be weaned.

I hope you can find homes easily for them once you start looking! just be careful that no one wants to use them as food for other animals!


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## Ratatosk (Sep 11, 2013)

UPDATE

sorry for being so late at updating but i'd like to let everyone know that Ice is NOT pregnant .She gained weight then leveled out so i believe she chose not to have them and re-absorbed them which is fine by me .She is as cuddley as ever and loving her extra food .

now the search for companions continues .If anyone knows of any rescues in Glasgow area please let me know .
but also 
I've noticed Fire has been bullied quite a bit by the older bucks Ratatosk and Ragnarok ,he's losing weight so not getting enough food (i've had to take him out everyday and feed him for an hour or two so he can get something ,i had the idea of having him neutered and he can live with his sister ? but i'm worried because he is rather thin and young (and very small ,smaller than his sister which is odd ) that he may die in sugery but i could be paranoid ?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Can you give him nutrical? It's a paste for kittens and puppies and should help fatten him up. 

If you take him to the vet, he could determine if it is safe. They'd have to adjust aesthetic dosing. 


BUT it has better health benefits and might be easier just to spay Ice. 


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