# How do you feel about hairless/tailess, other 'unusual' breeds?



## shibezone (Feb 5, 2018)

Pet trade is a really really contentious topic no matter how you approach it, but I see where you're coming from with a lot of your points.

I personally don't see a huge issue with breeding for aesthetic _to a certain point_. When bred responsibly and for good health, I think it's fine, and let's be honest, pet trade is a BUSINESS, for better or worse you want to have the most unique and attractive thing to sell.
Where I have a problem with breeding for aesthetic is when the look of the animal becomes more important than their genetic and physical health. For example, Scottish Fold cats are super cute, but the genetics that cause the folded ears effects the cartilage of the whole body, leading to some speculation these cats may have chronic pain. It's not worth it to me to have a cute cat when that cat is also in constant pain, you get me?
I also completely agree about being ethical in your decisions on where to buy your animal if you're looking for something particular, because, again, the pet trade is fundamentally a business and you have to be mindful of the consequences of your financial support.

Similarly, I see what you mean about these animals not surviving in the wild with their coloration and you're completely right that they wouldn't! But the thing about it is that these animals are not being bred to be released into the wild, they are bred specifically as companion animals, to be kept in homes. Selection of characteristics works differently for wild and man-made environments. Again you're not wrong it hurts their survivability in the wild, accidents do happen and companion animals that escape do often meet unfortunate ends, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just not sure why we would be breeding animals meant to be kept indoors with that specific thing in mind.

You gave the example of dumbo rats not hearing as well as a reason to not prefer them, you could also posit that curly whiskered rats are also disadvantaged because they lack the whisker reach of a normal coated rat given that rats whiskers are one of the most important tools they use to navigate their environment. Because we are in control of their environment we can work with what they have going on, again one of the distinct differences of a wild and man-made animal environment. Which isn't to say we should be purposely breeding animals with issues that affect their livelihood but hopefully you understand what I mean, it's very hard to have a clear cut answer on this.

That said, I'm not sure why but I'm very uncomfortable with purposely breeding tailless rats, something about that sits very poorly with me. I can be a little iffy on nakeds as well, but mostly because I was previously keeping an eye on hairless hamsters and the ethics about breeding them are _very_ sketchy at best because of potentially fatal issues they can inherit, but I'm not sure if it's the same for rats. I would love to own a naked, but would prefer my naked to be a rescue whereas I would consider furred rats from a breeder (if we had any around us).


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I think that it's a subject that tends toward a very broad moral scale and people have personal opinions on what's acceptable vs. what's too far. I have my opinions but they're not "right" it's just kind of what I'm comfortable with, I guess.

Personally I don't mind color mutations at all unless the gene itself is linked to health issues, and most aren't. Besides that, I don't believe that having a different coat color will affect the quality of a captive rat's life so I'm not against that. I think some colors begin in a poor spot because they're pulled from bad lines by chance, and are then bred to reproduce the color. I am totally fine with VERY experienced breeders who understand what they are doing, trying to work with those... mostly because if they don't, the feeder breeders and BYBs will just get their hands on it and people will be going to them to get that color rather than someone who works as fast as possible to fix those problems. 

When it comes to mutations that affect the animal's actual form, I'm very back and forth on some things, though I do think that animals benefit most from staying close to their natural condition. I do prefer the natural top ear look and I love agouti (any brown really) but that's mostly because I tend to like animals in their natural suit. I don't really have an issue with dumbo ears, except for maybe that a lot of new people assume they're sweeter or a different breed, or just overlook the cute top ears for the dumbos. I go back and forth on it just because I don't know to what extent it would affect their hearing or anything. I wouldn't be sad if the dumbo gene never popped up, at least. That's about where I am on that.

Given the choice I do choose smooth coated rats over rex rats only because I don't really like how the rex curls their whiskers, I dunno it just seems like whiskers are kind of important for rats and the crinkly whiskers won't really help them as much. I feel bad for my champagne rex girl who has pink eyes and is almost certainly blind, and has bent crinkly whiskers to make do with. But I also like the quality and healthy sheen that smooth coats have. Hairless... I don't know, I think hairless is definitely more for the human's benefit than the rat's, and I always felt like all things equal a smooth coated rat is just better off than a hairless.

Tailless I certainly disagree with. I also disagree with other tailless animals like dogs, cats, so on. Just feels wrong to me that it's basically like cutting off a whole appendage, plus tails are exceptionally important to rats because they use them for reasons beyond just balance. Rats don't have many ways of controlling their body temperature and their tail is kind of their best adaptation for it. I definitely see it as 'benefiting' the human at the full expense of the animal... and I just really don't like the weird hamster look anyways.


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## desdisques (Apr 16, 2018)

I do feel like my rex has poorer eyesight (he has red eyes) and navigation. I never thought of it before I got him, I just thought curly whiskers are cute! Then I noticed he couldn't see treats as well, or he makes poor decisions in jumps. He is also the most shy of my 3 boys. I'm not sure if this is just my rat's own problems or problems because he is a rex. Anyway, it did start a similar thought process about how ethical it is to breed rats with slight disadvantages.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

athenianratdaddy said:


> ...
> The fur keeps the animal warm and protects its skin from cuts and abrasions. In the wild, the color of the coat also helps the rat blend in by 'camouflaging' it, so to speak. The tail is absolutely vital for thermoregulation, balancing, and climbing. Granted that pet rats are not bred for wild environments. But does that give breeders the right to genetically alter the species to a degree that would mean immediate death and extinction if the rat happened to find its away from the conditioned home environment? Humans have done the same thing with dogs. The only resemblance that some dogs have with their ancestor, the wolf, is that they can still bark (barely). But I'm not a dog owner so I'll stick to rats.
> I think we've already gone far enough by trying to impose our own aesthetics on the species with the different patterns and colors that exist out there. Good luck to a BEW rat, for example, if it ever happens to wonder outside: it would become instant lunch since the white color would be seen from miles away (to a hawk, for instance). I don't even think dumbos are necessary.
> ...


I was sooo tired last night when I made my first post that I forgot I was going to respond to this part! 

It's important to understand that pet rats are removed from their wild relatives on more than just the physical level, they're fully domesticated animals just as dogs are. So, the mutations that cause white spotting or even black fur came about as these animals were domesticated, as docile temperament has a link to depigmentation. It's why our horses, cattle, dogs, cats, and more all often have white marking. If you've read about the domestication of the silver fox then this isn't news, but more info can also be found here: http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm

Basically this means that if you're breeding these domesticated animals you'll end up with markings even if you don't intend to, it isn't really a matter of breeding for unnatural colors, it's that docile "pet" temperament leads to those kinds of mutations on its own. Perhaps more importantly, our domesticated rats regardless of coat color won't survive in the wild. With domestication came slow reaction time, less hyperactivity, lowered stress response among other things that are very necessary for survival out in the woods. Color wouldn't be as much of an issue as their temperament anyways, since rats naturally come out after dark where their coloration isn't as much of a problem. Even an agouti top ear won't last long left in the wild, they're too far removed from the things that make them very successful in the wild- and consquently very unsuitable for captivity. 

Of course I do agree that a lot of other things are questionable like stuff I mentioned in my post above, but I guess here I am mostly highlighting why I don't have a problem with color mutations. Domestication itself is the biggest distortion of the animals' natural form and behavior, so to try to dodge everything abnormal about the animals in comparison to their wild counterparts, you'd have to have no pets in the first place.

I also wanted to mention since it was brought up but wolves don't actually bark at all, that's just a dog thing!


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## athenianratdaddy (Dec 20, 2017)

Yes, I stand corrected, wolves howl and growl, not bark. Thank you for pointing out. I guess I got carried away trying to make a point. And I forgot to mention curled whiskers as well (part of the rex strain?). Major sensory tool for rats.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

athenianratdaddy said:


> Yes, I stand corrected, wolves howl and growl, not bark. Thank you for pointing out. I guess I got carried away trying to make a point. And I forgot to mention curled whiskers as well (part of the rex strain?). Major sensory tool for rats.


Yup they are indeed caused by rex! And double rex/hairless generally have whiskers so short and tightly curled that most are inward touching the rat's face (and few may not have any real whiskers at all).


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## rottingmartian (Jun 1, 2018)

My boy Dobby is hairless. He has some pretty poor vision, I can see him bobbing his head around to figure out his surroundings. I don't know if it's due to his red eyes since my 2 other red eyed rats has fine vision. Hairless rats just have poor vision in general. However, I don't really have a huge problem with hairless rats. They have a few extra needs but I don't think being hairless impacts their quality of life too much. Tailess on the other hand... I have a problem with that. Tails are necessary for balance, regulating body temperature, climbing, etc. I think being tailess will decrease a rats quality of life significantly and will only add more obstacles in every day life for them.

These are just my opinions. I'm not sure if everything I said about hairless rats is correct since Dobby is my first hairless and I'm still pretty new to rats in general. I'm really sorry if my opinions offend/upset anyone.


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## mewmew_chan (Aug 20, 2017)

I think tailless rats are wrong on MANY levels, their tail is so vital. But hairless.. I dunno. I'd have to own one to find out and I'd like to. 
But something to keep in mind..
The cute factor IS a factor with animals that are domesticated. Take a wolf and a... Coonhound, lets say, because thats the dog I just got (She's a right handful..). Which ones a helluva lot cuter? The coonhound! And people dont want a pet they dont thnk is cute, thats just how it is. I dont find standard ears as cute, I find dumbos MUCH cuter- If I was presented with two nigh on identical rats in looks and persoanlity, but one was a dumbo... I'd choose the dumbo. The owners opinion DOES mtter.


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## shibezone (Feb 5, 2018)

I was thinking about it over the weekend and I think the thing that sits poorly with me about purposely breeding tailless rats is something others mentioned that they use their tail for a lot more than just balance. It kind of reminds me of the practice in dogs of docking the tails for aesthetic reasons, there's just very little reason to do it. I know it's quite a bit different being born taillless and having a tail docked, but it evokes similar feelings in the case of rats for me.

I personally love how dumbos look, not just because of the low ears, but the wedge shaped head they have is very charming. That said, I also love top eared rats and would actually love to see more agouti rats out there. There's definitely room for all rats, but not at the cost of dangerous back yard breeding practices.

I also think the point about fancy rats' behavior and personality traits being unsuitable to wild living irrespective of coat color is really important. Take for example my roommate's corn snake, Amaretto. Though she is an okeetee, a natural coloring for corn snakes, because of her breeding for temperament and that she has always lived in a captive environment, and fed frozen, she is completely unsuited for wild living.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

My own frustration is that when the appearance of the animal is just too important to people, those backyard breeding practices are rewarded. BYBs get so much business because a lot of people place appearance at the forefront of their mind, so if someone adverts on CL that they have hairless or DWS rats then people will give them business, often with no questions asked. 

When someone sets out for a rat because they specifically want a harley or a silvermane then that's where the BYBs profit. Not that responsible awesome breeders don't have these varieties, but what makes those breeders responsible is that color and type are the final thing on their list, far behind their health and temperament. As a breeder you'll often have to keep the black self instead of the perfectly-marked siamese because the black self could have the superior personality, even if you want those dark color points.

The most frustrating thing is if you work in rescue you could have the sweetest little top ear hooded perfect for any home, but that means nothing if there's a silvermane or sometimes even just a simple dumbo sitting next to it. A lot of the PEWs or hoodeds may sit in foster and never find homes before they die, but soon as a fancier-looking rat pops up then the adoption inquiries suddenly come out of the woodwork. It's very sad. But there

I recognize that this isn't 100% realistic, but it's my opinion that appearance should always be the last thing on the checklist when you're looking for a pet. This applies to shopping for different species as well, because there are so many chinchillas and hamsters and other species that someone took home because they thought it was cuter than the rat or the gecko, even if the latter 2 would have been a much better fit for their lifestyle. And sadly the chinchilla/hamster will suffer from that. 

I do have dumbos and I also have top ears and I don't notice their physical aspects at all anymore, I think rats have such strong personalities and are so individual that appearance isn't the first thing I see when I look at them. For me personally their level of cuteness was only a thing during the first week before I got to know them for their habits and attitudes. My top eared hooded is just as charming as my mink dumbo in their own little ways. Some of my dearest rats were PEWs and black selfs. I think owning those sweethearts made those more ordinary colors much more beautiful to me personally.  

One of those PEWs was my first rat who incidentally was "tailless", but it was because his mom apparently overgroomed him as a kitten and so he has a stubby butt his whole life. He was very sweet and lived an exceptionally long life, but I definitely wouldn't call him graceful. Back then I didn't know he might be more sensitive to heat but luckily my house was in some shady woods where it didn't get very hot.



rottingmartian said:


> My boy Dobby is hairless. He has some pretty poor vision, I can see him bobbing his head around to figure out his surroundings. I don't know if it's due to his red eyes since my 2 other red eyed rats has fine vision. Hairless rats just have poor vision in general. However, I don't really have a huge problem with hairless rats. They have a few extra needs but I don't think being hairless impacts their quality of life too much. Tailess on the other hand... I have a problem with that. Tails are necessary for balance, regulating body temperature, climbing, etc. I think being tailess will decrease a rats quality of life significantly and will only add more obstacles in every day life for them.
> 
> 
> These are just my opinions. I'm not sure if everything I said about hairless rats is correct since Dobby is my first hairless and I'm still pretty new to rats in general. I'm really sorry if my opinions offend/upset anyone.



Just wanted to say, Dobby is such a cute name for a hairless. <3


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## mewmew_chan (Aug 20, 2017)

I'm also going to add...
My boy is a harley. I didnt even know this was a thing when I got him, and I recently discovered the girl I got him from was a BYB breeding harleys exclusively. hoever... he's in great health. Hasnt even had a URI yet, and he's nearly a year old.
Yes, I did choose him (and when I got him, his brother) for the cute factor- They were little and all acted the same. His brother, however... Died very young of cancer. Dont BYB.


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## shibezone (Feb 5, 2018)

I wasn't aware of harleys or silvermanes, I absolutely see why those varieties would be highly sought after. It's like those who want blue French Bulldogs, stuff like that.

I'm 100% in agreement with you coffeebean, that look should never be the most important and I'm even one of those people who fell for unique colored rats. I have one pink eyed siamese dumbo and two grey (or is it called blue?) top ear, and I won't lie part of what drew me to the group at the rescue I got them from was the pink eyed dumbo. Of course the first thing I asked about was their temperament, I'd been burned by picking 'the cute one' when it came to hamsters because guess what: They were an _awful_ fit for me, even though I loved both of my hammies to absolute bits!


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Oh yes it's definitely something that I think most (if not all) of us do, which is part of why I acknowledge it's not the most realistic thing, it's more just an ideal I try to strive for. In some cases the only information you have when you're adopting from a litter of rats is a picture and hopefully some info about their parents/line history and obviously the one you think it's cutest is going to win that decision. I think when you're going to adopt from rescue though they should have enough information about their temperament that appearance won't be an imporant factor unless both options sound equally good, and obviously the ethical breeder with the litter of black self rats from good lines deserves business rather than the BYB who has the pearl merles but with unknown or questionable genetic history.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Though certain mutations are inherently more detrimental, ultimately any selectively breed trait is going to disadvantage an animal more than any trait acquired through natural selection. That is an undisputable fact however you will see breeders try to mask their denial and guilt by spreading crazy ideas about how certain traits (either bred or mutilated) are benificial. If anyone tells you any dog is better off without its ears, any cat is better off without nails, any bird is better off without flight feathers, any horse is better off without a tail or any rat is better off without fur; Run and don't look back. If an animal is in danger of breaking its tail, getting its claws stuck or flying into a window...the problem is the enviroment they live in NOT their own body. An animals body is never the problem and it should never be "fixed" before the saftey of their enviroment is considered. Rant aside. Dumbo and red eyes cause a rat to be disadvantaged however I don't think it's on the same league as manx... that I believe causes greater problems. I'd also like to point out that just because a certain mutation may not have immediate issues, does not necessarily mean it should be being bred. Hairlessness in itself isn't too detrimental in a domestic lifestyle but consider that many hairless lines have trouble producing milk and lactating so much so that babies sometimes require a surrogate and I believe when such a essential and natural bodily function such as nursing or birth is compromised that is a clear sign from nature that these animals should not be reproducing at all.


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## mewmew_chan (Aug 20, 2017)

another big issues with BYBS is there are so many MORE of them in the world. I'm trying to find a new baby to get, and no one is adopting out young enough rats, and I can't find any breeders in my area. TONS of BYBS in phoenix, but as far as I know, at most one breeder, and she isnt breeding until July. Ugh.


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## shibezone (Feb 5, 2018)

I feel you on having problems finding ethical breeders, mewmew_chan, that's a really big issue in my area too. The closest breeders are questionable, the closest one I think looks promising is very far away and has a long wait list, coupled with that they only breed a few times a year, so my affordable options are limited.
The rescue I got my boys from is a 6 hour round trip away in the middle of the state and our local humane society rarely if ever has rats!

My only other "option", is a local pet store that has, for lack of a more polite way of saying it, gone to s**t. They keep their animals in crappy conditions, they handle them poorly (ie picking up unsupported by the tail), and I know of several instances of them doing some shady breeding of their own with their rats. Obviously I'm not going to support that.

Also I agree with you Fu-Inle about loss of normal or unaided function. My family has a French Bulldog, a rescue, and we love that dummy to bits even with her allergy problems and behavioral issues, but Frenchies can't often give birth unaided because of the size of the puppies' heads relative to the mother's hips, thus I really believe some modification of the breed would be healthy. As much as I love the smooshy face of a brachycephalic dog I also recognize they have unique health issues that could be addressed by breed modification.

Sorry I keep coming back to this thread, I just have more thoughts about it than I realized!!


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

mewmew_chan said:


> another big issues with BYBS is there are so many MORE of them in the world. I'm trying to find a new baby to get, and no one is adopting out young enough rats, and I can't find any breeders in my area. TONS of BYBS in phoenix, but as far as I know, at most one breeder, and she isnt breeding until July. Ugh.


Any Rat Rescue in AZ does work through Phoenix and they look like they have some young rats available: http://www.anyratrescue.org/ 

Their Petfinder link: https://www.petfinder.com/search/pets-for-adoption/?shelter_id[0]=AZ173&sort[0]=recently_added

Raining Rats Rattery looks pretty alright and they claim to have their lines' health histories tracked so you might talk to them, though maybe that's the breeder you already mentioned? I bought hammocks from them once and they were very nice. It's definitely worth a couple month wait to get healthy rats from a good breeder though. A lot of good breeders do breed pretty irregularly since they just breed to improve on the line rather than to satisfy a demand.


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## mewmew_chan (Aug 20, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> Any Rat Rescue in AZ does work through Phoenix and they look like they have some young rats available: http://www.anyratrescue.org/
> 
> Their Petfinder link: https://www.petfinder.com/search/pets-for-adoption/?shelter_id[0]=AZ173&sort[0]=recently_added
> 
> Raining Rats Rattery looks pretty alright and they claim to have their lines' health histories tracked so you might talk to them, though maybe that's the breeder you already mentioned? I bought hammocks from them once and they were very nice. It's definitely worth a couple month wait to get healthy rats from a good breeder though. A lot of good breeders do breed pretty irregularly since they just breed to improve on the line rather than to satisfy a demand.


I;ve spoken to RRR.  and I'll contact Any Rat, thank you. I didnt even see them online. I'm trying to find my current solo male a companion, and its been difficult, lol.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

shibezone said:


> I feel you on having problems finding ethical breeders, mewmew_chan, that's a really big issue in my area too. The closest breeders are questionable, the closest one I think looks promising is very far away and has a long wait list, coupled with that they only breed a few times a year, so my affordable options are limited.The rescue I got my boys from is a 6 hour round trip away in the middle of the state and our local humane society rarely if ever has rats!My only other "option", is a local pet store that has, for lack of a more polite way of saying it, gone to s**t. They keep their animals in crappy conditions, they handle them poorly (ie picking up unsupported by the tail), and I know of several instances of them doing some shady breeding of their own with their rats. Obviously I'm not going to support that.Also I agree with you Fu-Inle about loss of normal or unaided function. My family has a French Bulldog, a rescue, and we love that dummy to bits even with her allergy problems and behavioral issues, but Frenchies can't often give birth unaided because of the size of the puppies' heads relative to the mother's hips, thus I really believe some modification of the breed would be healthy. As much as I love the smooshy face of a brachycephalic dog I also recognize they have unique health issues that could be addressed by breed modification.Sorry I keep coming back to this thread, I just have more thoughts about it than I realized!!


 I think cetain breeds are too far gone and it would be better off just to allow them to die out naturally however French Bulldog puppies are desirable and can fetch up to $5000 and when money is involved, animals come second. Trying to fix problems caused by selective breeding with even more selective breeding I believe is just fighting fire with fire. There comes a point when its just better to remove them from the genepool... I think we can go without certain breeds.


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## shibezone (Feb 5, 2018)

Ah yeah, that's actually really true Fu-Inle. I'd been thinking specifically of the movement I saw to 'rebreed' pugs into an older form to reduce the brachycephaly specific issues they have in their current standard. Here's a picture of what I was thinking of, the 'retro' pug on the left with a modern pug on the right. But you're ultimately right that because of the way we do 'purebreed' dogs it would just kind of lead to the same thing, especially when it comes to money, unfortunately.

Fundamentally I agree we should discontinue certain breeds, it's just hard for me to say with the same conviction you have because a lot of my favorite dogs I've had were brachy breeds with issues (English Bulldog, French Bulldog and to a lesser extent, my most favorite, Boston Terrier) so it's an emotional hang up for me, thus why I try to argue better breeding and genetic diversity to compromise. I loved those dogs a ton, but I don't want any of their same breed to suffer for no reason, either.


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