# Rat troubles(again)



## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

Guess I'm back with more questions. Alright, so in my other post I explained how my biggest girl out of four wasn't doing so good after a vet trip and having to take two different medicines, but she seems to be doing a bit better. My only concern now is she refuses to leave her igloo. When she does, usually to go sleep in the hammock for a hour or so, she moves veeerry sloooowly. It's sad to watch. She squeaked in pain when I picked her up to give her the morning medicine, and when her sisters (especially the younger ones) try to play with her. She eats and drinks if I bring the food and water to her, but she doesn't seem to want to get up and get it herself. She had a shot two days ago, is it possible that she's still sore, or is something else still going on? None of my other three girls are showing any signs of pain at all. Is it possible she's in pain because she's older, nearly two years old compared to my younger rats being only 6 months?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

So ALL your rats got the worm shoot but she is the only one on the two antibiotics, right? Also how was she BEFORE she got the worm shot or antibiotics? What were her symptoms before she got any medicine?


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

All the rats got the shot, and they are all on the same medications, which is why I'm so concerned as to why she's the only one acting strange. Before the vet visit she was completely fine. Shes usually the most outgoing of the four, but now she's acting how like I stated in the top post. She's moved maybe twice by herself this whole day. The vet insists it's just soreness and not to worry about it unless she's still acting like this on monday or tuesday, which is quite annoying, especially considering she was acting lethargic most of yesterday.


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

Ah, sorry. Cleo is the only one taking clavamox for respitory along with the metronidazole. Everyone else just takes metronidazole.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

There are other people here who know more than I do, so they can tell you more...........

If your rat has a URI, 

Most cases of URIs are caused by the Mycoplasma bacteria...........

Copied from this sticky:

http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?39747-Is-Your-Rat-Sneezing-URI-and-Mycoplasmosis-Information

Neither of the antibiotics your vet gave you are effective against mycoplasma. You can check this information here

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

The Metronidazole can cause these adverse reactions. You can check this information here.

http://ratguide.com/meds/anti-infectives/metronidazole_flagyl.php

Adverse Reactions
CNS: lethargy, weakness, poor coordination

Blood: transient neutopenia, leukopenia

Endocrine: hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia

GI: anorexia, diarrhea, stomatitis

GU: darkened or red-brown urine, cystitis, polyuria, dysuria

Skin: pruritus (itching)

Other: hepatotoxicity

From the medication guide at ratguide.com, the only antibiotics effective against IRU resulting from mycoplasma are:

From what I can tell, these are the best:
azithromycin
Doxycycline
Enroflaxin

Then:
Erythromycin
Tetracycline
Tylosin
Chloramphenical palmitate or Chloramphenical sodium succinate


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

The rat savy owners around here will tell you that most vets have poor knowledge of how to treat rats. They suggest printing reliable information from the internet, Ratguide.com and taking it with you to the vet. 

I would print out this one along with the medication guide from Rat Guide. Make sure you point out to your vet that the authors on this website ARE veterinarians specializing in rat medicine.

http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/mycoplasma_mycoplasmosis.php

I would also contact this member online. She has excellent knowledge of rat care. Not saying others don't have just as much knowledge, she's the one I've talked to most.

http://www.ratforum.com/member.php?6712-lilspaz68

Good luck!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Are you giving the Clavomox and the metronidazole and the same time? This _could be_ very important. I will keep looking and let you know if it's a bad idea to give them together.


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

Be careful telling a vet their job. Luckily my vet is a bird and small animal specialist. He quoted a lot of information that I had already read.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I definitely agree! I would just say something like this..

I'm a member of some rat forums on line. Apparently, it's not common for people to own rats as pets, so it's difficult to find a vet who is familiar with treating them. Are you familiar with rats as pets? If you are not, I have printed off this information authored by vets specializing in rat medicine. Would you mind looking at it and tell me what you think?

If they won't look at it or shrug it off, I'd go somewhere else.


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

Thank you for the suggestions! My vet specializes in exotic and small animals, and actually owns two rats. And yes, the medicine is taken at the same time. Well, the clavamox is at 7am and 7pm, while the metronidazole is only at 7pm. The clavamox is for her lower respitory issues, and the metronidazole is for gastrointestinal parasites. They had(have?) giardia, which was causing worms, which is how I noticed the problem and took my girls to the vet. While I was there, the vet noticed slight breathing issues in Cleo and also prescribed the clavamox. The deworming injection the rats got was preziquant.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

LogiLovesRats said:


> My vet specializes in exotic and small animals, and actually owns two rats.


Well that's good to know! 

I guess he sees no reason to be concerned about mycoplasma. Thank god!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would give the meds at least 3 hours apart. It looks like she is not better and I really doubt it is from the soreness of the shot. If it were me I would stop 1 or both meds. Neurotoxicity is an adverse reaction to both drugs and it is very serious condition.


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

Ah, I suppose I'll have to insist the vet see her again tomorrow then. Tomorrow morning, should I not give Cleo her respitory medicine? Should I stop giving everyone the medicine, or continue since no one else is having issues? What should I tell the vet when I call her tomorrow?


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm a little hesitant to tell you this, but since I'm not the only one concerned, I'm going to tell you what I'm worried about. 

I know you said your doctor specializes in exotic vets and I am clearly not a vet......

Metronidazole is a bacteriostatic medication. What that means is that it prevents bacteria from reproducing, but does not necessarily kill existing bacteria. Using a bacteriostatic med with an antibiotic that is a bactericide (meaning it kills existing bacteria) can cancel out the usefulness of the of the antibiotic. 

I can't say for sure what effect metronidazole has on Clavomax, but if it's not a good combination, Clavomax is basically doing nothing to help your rat. 

In other words, the active bacteria isn't being killed if you give them together. It's just not reproducing.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

If it were me, I'd discontinue the metronidazole and continue with the clavamox


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

Alright, but what about the giardia? The vet said that its a type of "bacteria" so to say, and I was under the impression that the metronidazole was what was helping that. Should the preziquant shot have gotten rid of that? It would really suck if Cleo wasn't completely cured and passed it back to my other girls. Of course, I'll stop the medication if it will help Cleo feel better. It's so heartbreaking hearing her cry every time she simply tries to climb her cage bars. I ended up moving everything she needs to the bottom level for her.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

First I would give both but wait at least three hours between them like explained above. If not better than reassess and skip the antibiotic first as you don't want your rats to be reinfected. Only in last resort stop both. You can try baby ibuprofen to see if it helps with the pain- separently from all the other meds. Is she eating and drinking normally?


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## LogiLovesRats (Nov 29, 2015)

She won't eat unless I physically put the food in front of her, then she'll eat a few pieces and be done. She's nuts for baby food, especially heated up. I think it was actually you who gave me that idea. Shes drinking normally.


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

I have a question. Why is the advice to see a vet and then when the vet makes a diagnosis or prescribes something it is usually wrong? It seems to defeat the purpose of spending the money to see the vet when there are so many people on the sites that know better than a licensed individual.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Again, I'm not a vet...........I did however study biomedical science, so I do have some understanding about how some of this stuff works.

From what I can tell, the metronidazole _is_ used to treat the giardia. IF there are complications with using the metronidazole and Clavamox together, they should be given at separate times. I don't know the half-life of any of these drugs, so I can't tell you how long to wait between medications. But if it were me, I'd give the metronidazole 6 hours after giving Clavamox since you're using the Clavamox twice daily.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Better be cautious than having a dead rat or permanently brain damaged rat due to CNS toxicity. CNS toxicity is a very serious condition.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How is she doing? is she any better?


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Odd one, one of the things that comes to mind is that the worms have caused some secondary problems, although this would be quite uncommon, she might be tender in her tummy? 
The first thing I thought of was because of the double dose of antibiotics she may be experiencing some hepatotoxicity as her kidneys struggle to detoxify them, and as she's on the older side they may not be as efficient as they could be! If this is the case, then it may continue to progress and worsen. From what I can tell the antibiotics are fine together (no contraindications), but the toxicity may become a factor if the dose is slightly too high for her body weight (but I'm sure this isn't the case, vets know what they're doing with dosing). Giardia is a protozoa, not a bacteria or virus, and can be effectively treated with antibiotics and/or praziquantel. I'm confused as to why he gave both, as this would be unnecessary unless she had a heavy worm burden and was VERY ill because of it :S Praziquantel is not commonly used now as giardia responds well to just metronidazole, although there are OLD research papers using prazi for giardia in rats....
I assume she hasn't lost weight or had any diarrhoea? As you could be looking at dehydration and weakness then.
In general, metronidazole is not a very nice antibiotic to take - it can make you feel very sick - and whilst side effects for praziquantel and clavamox are less common they do happen. Could it be that she feels run down and sicky and just doesn't want to move?
Perhaps give her a bit more time (1-2 days), help her eat and drink plenty and see if she improves and builds up strength, if not I'd take her back and explain that she's got worse, insist that she needs to be seen.


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