# Should I get a companion for my lone male while we do introductions?



## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

Sorry if the title's confusing. I didn't know how else to say it. 

Intros with Buster have been going a bit slower than I expected (maybe I'm just impatient). He's a year old and has been a lone rat for nearly his whole life. I realize this is already a difficult situation, but its not helped by the fact that my alpha male has been very aggressive towards him. I realize these things take time, and I'm still working with them because I would like to just have one group of rats.

However, I feel really, really bad that Buster's still alone. He gets playdates with Mouse (since Ghost is still too aggressive, and he needs to learn to play with other rats), but attempts to have him live with Mouse have been unsuccessful. I know intros between adult males and very young males or females of any age are supposed to be easier. Do you think I should find him a baby male or a spayed female to keep him company?

I figure if that intro goes well, then eventually I could bring the two pairs together, and I wouldn't be worried about Buster being all alone. Even if the two groups never integrated, at least everyone would have a companion (and I wouldn't feel so rushed to get everyone together).

If that intro doesn't go well, then introducing a baby male or a spayed female to my other two boys should be easier than introducing Buster to them, so at least the newcomer wouldn't be alone.

Maybe this is just me being tempted to get more rats (and I do feel a little guilty having a DCN with only three rats in it, when there are rats who need to be adopted), but I really just want to do what's best for Buster.


Someone else suggested that a new rat might stress Ghost out even more and keep him from accepting Buster.

I would be perfectly happy to have two groups if it meant Buster had a companion. 

But what if I introduced the newbie to my pair as well as to Buster, sort of at the same time? Would that be too confusing/stressful for him/her? (I *do not* meaning throwing all four of them in together somewhere. I just mean doing cage/bedding/toy swaps between all three groups [the two boys, Buster, and the newbie], and then maybe neutral territory playtime between the newbie and Buster one day, and the newbie and the boys the next time. That way he/she'd be able to get along with either group.)

Is that a terrible idea? Should the newbie be integrated into one group before meeting the others? I know there are people who have playtimes between their groups.

I wouldn't want to impact the odds of Ghost accepting Buster, though. I'd rather have one group of three or four than two groups of two. But again, I'd be happy to have two groups if it's what's best for Buster.


(By the way, I fully understand the importance of quarantine, and would absolutely do that with any incoming rats.)


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm really considering this option now. Friday, I set up a play area for them and let Ghost and Mouse run around for a bit. Then I put Ghost up and got Buster out to play with Mouse. He completely ignored Mouse and just checked out the play area. Mouse, on the other hand, froze whenever Buster came near him, but also followed Buster everywhere, as if he wanted to know what Buster was doing at all times. 


The play area was on the coffee table, so I got Ghost out on the sofa while I watched the others. That way he and Buster could see each other, but not reach. They didn't seem to notice, so I switched Ghost and Buster a few times (one on the sofa, the other on the coffee table with Mouse).


Since Buster was being so calm and non-aggressive, and Mouse seemed upset (he always tried to switch to whichever side Ghost was on), I removed Mouse and put Ghost and Buster on the table together. They were okay for a moment or two, and then Buster tried to hump Ghost and Ghost kicked Buster, and they scuffled and squeaked. I felt like the situation was just going to keep escalating, so I put everyone back into their normal cages.


Today, I got Mouse and Buster out again to play on the bed. They ignored each other for a while, and then sat in one of their boxes together. Then Mouse started freezing whenever Buster came near, and Buster power groomed him a couple times. They were still okay for a while, but then Buster got into the box Mouse was in and they scuffled. I don't know _exactly_ what happened because I wasn't at the best angle to see, but Mouse was squeaking frantically. I immediately opened the box up further and the two of them froze, Buster with his paws and face on Mouse, and Mouse trying to hold Buster away, bits of Mouse's fur on the floor. They stayed like that while I grabbed a glove (I wasn't sure if they'd get confused and bit me if I tried to pick one up), and by the time I had it on, Buster was slowly coming out of the box. I put him away and then put Mouse back, too. 


There was no blood, but I feel SO bad for Mouse. He's clearly afraid of Buster, and introductions are stressing him out. The fight today started for absolutely no reason that I could see. But if I put Buster with Ghost, they start fighting almost immediately. I just don't know what to do.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

They aren't nessecarily fighting without blood, the first scuffle you described sounded pretty harmless. They will never work it out if they don't get the chance to.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

The old no blood, no foul thing rings true (though I sympathize, it can be hard watching rats interact). If you feel really indecisive about whether the fighting is serious, are you able to post some footage?


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I'll try to get a video. It'll have to be this weekend when I can borrow the boyfriend's phone (I don't think I have anything that does videos, and I'm pretty sure his phone does). That's a really great idea, because I'm not always able to describe it properly. 

Here's a picture of them in the box, after I'd opened it but before I tried to intervene. They'd relaxed their positions a little bit, but hopefully the body language is clear enough.


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## Demonardae (Apr 10, 2011)

Perhaps neutering the two aggressors might help. And I know it's hard introducing new rats, Twinkie and Baby (Punk) drove me nuts. Baby would jump on Twinkie and Twinkie would knock the crap outta her. I had to seperate them every time it got too rough, but after a couple of weeks they mellowed out and became best friends. My only other suggestion is watch them and if it looks like someone might get hurt separate them for a few minutes then try again. Hope this helps.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Another thing you can try to de-escalate fights is a quick squirt with some water, distracts the rats from fighting. And, have heaps of tasty food lying around during intros... How are you going with this?


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

They look as though the black hoddy is power grooming the blue.


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I've been putting them up after they get aggressive, because I'm worried about stressing them out too much. Mouse acts _so_ scared whenever Buster comes near, it just breaks my heart to see him like that. Should I just give them little breaks and then put them back together?

The squirt bottle is a great idea. I'll pick one up either tonight or tomorrow. 

I had food out during this most recent into, but Buster was very intent on stashing it and got upset whenever Mouse came near his stash. 

The picture shows Buster (black hoody) holding down Mouse (blue) after ripping some fur out. Maybe I'm a little too sensitive to Mouse's pathetic squeaking, but I was certain that I was going to find a huge bite wound.

I'd like to work this out without having to neuter anyone, but I haven't ruled it out as an option. I thought if anyone would need it, it would be Ghost. (Ghost lives with Mouse and is the alpha. Whenever he and Buster are together, he will almost immediately start puffing up and pushing his side into Buster. I try to put him in Buster's cage whenever I've got Buster and Mouse out, although I forgot to do it last time.)


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I forgot to ask, are small boxes like the one pictured a good idea for intros? I know they feel safe to the rats, but I don't like how hard it is to see into them, in case of a fight or anything. I have a "cat cube" and some medium cardboard boxes I put out for them, but would they be okay without the little boxes? I could put their igloo out, it's relatively see-through, and I can lift it off of them.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Without having any evidence to back this up, I would postulate that intros may go better in a barren, coverless environment (bathroom floor is good) on account of we want the rats to have the absolute least number of things to fight over/defend. A plus of the bathroom is the human becomes the safety point.

Cool thing about the water bottle is you can aim it to only spray the offender 

With the tasty food, try something that can't be stashed, like yoghurt, on a reasonably big plate, so as two rats could approach it from opposite sides and not be in each others space.

I feel kinda positive about that photo because mouse is on his feet, not his back (submissive position)..if he were really terrified, you'd think he'd flip over.

Maybe try dabbing all rats involved with a little vanilla essence pre next intro too.


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, we've had a pretty unexpected change of events here, so far as intros are concerned. Buster and Ghost are getting along very well. They aren't living together yet, but when I put them together, they're okay for a while, and then Ghost will occasionally poof up and push himself into Buster, while Buster gets poofy but sits still. After some of this posturing, Ghost goes back to what he was doing. No squabbles, yay!


However, after Ghost has postured at him once or twice, Buster will only move very slowly, as if he is very scared. He then tries to run away from the into area. I'm using the coffee table, and he has learned that he can jump to the sofa.


My intro method right now is to put a plate of yogurt on the coffee table, and to put vanilla extract just above each rats' nose and tail. The only thing on the coffee table, other than the yogurt, is a fleece blanket or two to protect the blanket from pee, although last night I added a small cardboard box that made a very open tunnel.


My other problem is that Mouse is absolutely terrified of Buster. I put him on the coffee table first, in the hopes that he'd eat the yogurt and calm down a bit before I added either of the other rats. Instead, he ran to me, terrified, and eventually jumped off the table. The entire intro session (both last night and the night before) consisted of Ghost and Buster interacting as described above, and Mouse launching himself into my lap repeatedly. He would run up to me regardless of whether or not Buster had also come over to see me, but if Buster even looked at him, Mouse would stand up and put his arms out, as if to push Buster away. 


Clearly, my attempts to socialize Buster with Mouse helped Buster, but have made poor Mouse absolutely terrified of him. I don't know what to do. 


I got a video of last night's intro, but I'm having trouble getting it to my computer. I'll post it when I can, so someone more experienced than I can help me interpret the body language. It was taken when everybody was pretty done with the intro, though, so I don't know how useful it will be.


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

Okay, we just did another intro. Everyone was sleepy so I though they might be more inclined to get along. I had to bring Mouse out in his cardboard box, and he just stayed in there, so I left it out. When I added Buster and Ghost to the table, they ran in and joined him! Buster took a bath while he was in there, and then groomed Mouse's head a little (not power grooming, just friendly grooming). They stayed in there until Buster got bored. I offered him a lab block and he took it back into the box to eat, then alternated between being in the box and running around the table.


However, whenever he left the box, I could see Mouse looking traumatized and frozen inside, although there was no squeaking or squabbling of any sort when all 3 were in there. I got Mouse out of the box and Ghost followed, then offered them the igloo, which is actually meant to hold 3 rats. Ghost and Mouse took it over and wouldn't really let Buster in, so he went back to the cardboard box. When I took that away, he kept trying to get off the table. I offered them all treats to keep them on, but eventually, even that wasn't enough, so we ended it. 


There was no fighting, although Ghost got poofy when Buster was trying to get in the igloo. I tried to get pictures of it, but they didn't turn out very well.


All three in the box.












Ghost and Mouse while Buster eats.












Mouse looking traumatized.












In the igloo. Notice Mouse pushing Ghost, and I think Buster pushing Mouse.












Slightly poofy Ghost.












Buster photobombing.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

It sounds like progress is being made. Your Mouse reminds me of my Euripides. Euri lived with Musashi, a hormonally aggressive male for an unknown period of time before I got him and retained his fear of Musashi even after Musashi got the snip. However, post snip, I felt comfortable caging them together again and over time, Euri realised Musashi wasn't roughing him up like he used to and that fear disappeared. If Ghost and Buster have eased up on the bullying, hopefully Mouse will catch onto this and relax soon. Glad you are hanging in there. Think from experience that no place to hide during intros is better and continue to advocate for that


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

That's really encouraging to hear. I was hoping that continued exposure to Buster without Buster being aggressive would show Mouse that he's safe.

After seeing Ghost get defensive of the igloo, I agree with you about not having hiding places. Putting the igloo out was a mistake. I was just encouraged by the way they got along in the cardboard box. Without the shelters, I have Buster and Mouse throwing themselves off the table in opposite directions, and Ghost either eating or finding ways to burrow under the towels. The closest they come to interacting is when Buster and Mouse both try to jump onto me!

Since Mouse won't eat while Buster is around (except when hiding in the igloo), is there anything other than food or shelter I can put out to try to get his attention? He tends to ignore the chew toys I leave out, too (but he ignores them when they're in the cage, as well). Maybe a cork... cork is their favorite thing to destroy. I'll just have to make sure I have three, so they don't fight. Does that sound like a good idea, or just a recipe for fighting?

I could try intros on the bed. That's our other "neutral territory" (they all know the bathroom from bath time, so I'm not sure that's neutral enough). They'd have more room to get away from each other, but no one has tried jumping off it yet. Would that be a better place?


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

When I was trying to introduce old grumpy girl Paris to young ratlings Marris and Lilith, I let Paris into the girls' cage (not the best way to do it) and she immediately took up residence in their nest box (while they were out exploring her cage) and when they returned, she wouldn't let them in and sat there like the toad from Spirited Away....it was kinda funny in a frustrating kind of way.

Corks sound like a pretty cool idea. I'd still try the bathroom floor (as opposed to the bathtub), no where to jump to, no where to hide. Sit yourself down on the floor (or a chair if that's uncomfortable), rats can hide on you, that's fine. I think the regular human use of bathrooms leaves them pretty sterile. 

Perhaps seeing as Mouse is not aggressive, his lack of eating is not too concerning, the food's purpose I think is to placate any territorial rats and distract them.

The other thing you can try is putting all rats in a travel cage and taking them for a drive, the theory is that they'll all get traumatised together and bond with each other out of necessity.


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

To the bathroom it is, then. At least I'll be able to just sweep up the shredded cork. I made the mistake of giving it to them right after cage cleanings once... never again. Now they can only have it when the cage is already looking messy! (Which is all the time, since the younger boys immediately dig all the litter out of their litter box and scatter it everywhere else in the cage. I almost don't want to have them all in one cage, since Buster keeps his so neat and tidy! I'm just hoping he'll teach them to be nice clean rats...)

As far as the travel cage method goes, how do you make sure fights don't break out before you get the cage into the car? That's my main concern. We're in an apartment complex so it would be super easy to do a few laps around the parking lot with them.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

I find the rats are all too disorientated and confused to think about picking on each other, they're in a different cage, smelling the outside world, the ground is swaying gently...

Ha ha about the cork and the perpetually messy cages


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, intros are sort of on hold at the moment because we're watching my boyfriend's cat (who usually lives with his parents) for the week. We were hoping everyone would get along and simply be curious about each other, but the rats, especially Ghost, are terrified of Felix (the cat). Fortunately, Felix only seems interested in keeping his distance from the rats. He'll watch them from the sofa, but that's about it. He only comes up to the cage if I'm by it (feeding, cleaning, etc.), and only because he wants my attention. 

I tried bathroom floor intros anyway, hoping the smell of the cat would bond them together, similar to the car ride method. Instead, everyone just seemed stressed out and not interested in interacting. Ghost was fine for a while and then got spooked and ran to hide behind the toilet. He would only come out if I placed him on my shoulder, so that's where he stayed for the rest of the intros. Usually, he'll only sit on my shoulder for a couple seconds before climbing down, but this time, if I tried to place him on my lap or onto the floor with the others, he'd bolt back to the toilet, so I gave up and let him stay there. Buster and Mouse both climbed on and off my lap, so at least Ghost was close to the action. 

As for those two, Mouse didn't spend the whole time frantically running from Buster. Yay! He did do the freezing up thing again, though, but only once. He'd taken a grape into the corner to eat, near where Buster was bathing, and then seemed to realize it was Buster and that he was forgetting to be afraid of Buster. Buster ignored him and continued to bathe, and Mouse eventually relaxed enough to nibble on the grape. He also was relaxed enough to sample some of the yogurt at the beginning of the intro.

After the freezing up incident, Mouse and Buster did the slap-fight/pushing each other thing for a couple seconds, but nothing really seemed to happen. Then Buster lay down flat on the floor, looking defeated (or maybe just tired?). Mouse seemed to catch some of Felix's scent under the door (like a typical cat, he can't stand closed doors, and there isn't a room we can close off that doesn't have a door leading into the bathroom), and, after being curious about him, froze up again and fear-pooped. At that point, I felt like the scent of the cat was too much for any of them to relax, and that I was just stressing everyone out, so we ended things there.

Since they hadn't fought, we decided to try putting them into the cage together. They're in a DCN, so I just opened the levels up. Buster usually lives in the top half and Ghost and Mouse in the bottom, so I started Ghost and Mouse up top and Buster in the bottom. Once they found each other (when Buster found the way up to the top level), Ghost did his poofy-in-your-face-dance, which eventually lead to a scuffle with Buster. He pulled a chunk of fur out, but otherwise no harm was done. I realized that I was just stressing everyone out further, and separated the levels again. I've had a full pan in the top half of the cage, so the levels are completely separate, but this time I left the pan with the cutout up top, so now they have a window to see each other through. 

I'm hesitant to do any more intros while Felix is around. My boyfriend would like to have him live with us, and in that case, we'll carry on and they'll just have to get used to the cat. However, there are other issues with the cat (not involving the rats), so he may go back to live with my boyfriend's parents. Maybe we'll try the car ride next, since it won't smell like cat in there. (Does it matter if I roll the windows down? Would outside-scents be a good or a bad thing?)

Just thought I should update.


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## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I forgot to mention, everyone had vanilla extract on them for this intro, too.


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