# Sally died, blood in her mouth, what is it?



## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

I feel horrible, I think I might've killed Sally. I don't understand what the heck just happened. 

Her tail was broken and she had an abscess pop in her throat, I don't know if either of these has anything to do with something maybe I'm not thinking of? Something deadly? Someone please tell me it wasn't my fault... 

She was really hurting, squeaking a lot just from the break in her tail rubbing on the floor as she walked, and Molly kept jumping on her back and Sally would cry, so I seperated them last night. I debated with myself about giving Sally something for the pain... I didn't want her to think she's feeling better after being given some drugs and run & play, hurting herself worse, but in the end I decided on giving her a half-dose to see if that would help. I had a bottle of Metacam leftover from when my cat was on it around Christmas time so I mixed a half dose(referenced from rat guide) with honey and gave it to her but it didn't seem to have any effect AT ALL. If I touched her tail even as gently as I possibly could she would still squeak. 

I found some mentions of giving infant ibuprofen and conflicting information as to whether or not it actually helped at all but I figured it couldn't hurt so I picked some up this morning. I measured out again a half dose, it came with a little oral syringe, and I just syringed it SLOWLY into her mouth, it was grape flavoured, she ate it up. 

I had her out of her cage sitting with me so she could stretch her legs if she wanted to but she just stayed really close to me, not really moving much at all. Honestly, I was on the computer and I guess not paying too much attention because next thing I know I realized that it looked like she was trying to breathe through her mouth. I didn't know if she was choking or what, I tried to pull her tongue forward a bit and shone a light to see if I could see anything, her mouth is really really tiny though, the only thing I could see is that there was a bit of blood that came up with the back of her tongue... enough blood that it turned her lips and her mouth red, I wiped it off, it didn't seem like there was anything blocking her airway. 

Her breathing just seemed to get weaker and weaker until it stopped. I tried to give her CPR and at one point she took a couple breaths, it seemed like she was gonna breathe on her own, but then she stopped again. 

The only thing that was different about anything was that I gave her some medicine. She was fine before. I think she was allergic or something. The last time I took an advil or an aspirin my stomach started bleeding, it almost seems like this is the same thing because of the blood.


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

OMG, I just remembered something. Around when I first brought them home she was making a racket, I went to see what was up and a gush of blood came out of her mouth. Actually, I think that situation was the one that made me join the forums here so I could ask about it. I assumed she bit her tongue. I'm wondering if she had some internal issues that went unnoticed now  What could this be? What would cause blood to be spit up like that?


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

There is so much going on here...

First abscess IN or ON her throat? 

How old was she? 

It is possible she overdosed as metacam and ibuprofen are both nsaids and you're not supposed to take multiple of those. 

Could she have gotten into anything in the house? 

She might have just had something wrong with her though.


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## 3 ratties (Apr 6, 2013)

I think she might of had internal injuries and maybe an infection from her tail and throat problems. Usually when people spit up blood that is a sign of internal damage or trauma. Something had to of happened to her.. how did she break her tail?


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

The abscess was ON her throat, not in it. It was just under the skin, not in deep at all. It didn't interfere with her breathing or anything like that. It popped open a couple of days ago, I kept it as clean as I could by flushing it at least 3x/day, it was healing nicely. At one point I thought it was coming back because it had some heat around the wound but it went away in less than 12 hours leaving me to believe that I probably irritated it by messing with it so much. 

She was only 3 months old  She was born on January 22 of this year. I took her and her sister home 5 weeks later. 

As far as an overdose goes, that was my initial reaction and while it's still a possibility I want to say that my gut is learning towards it not being an OD. I'm very, very careful with this kind of stuff. I'm not the kind of person who doses willynilly. I ALWAYS check and re-check references as well as doses multiple times, and I always keep in touch with my vets(or if they're not around my dad's best friend is a vet and he has helped me out on more than one occasion) for advice, and really just to sort of have them on "standby" incase anything I'm not comfortable in dealing with goes down. As I said earlier as well, I gave her half of the "average" doses for her size/weight. I know they say not to mix but read that rats have a hugely fast metabolism so I figured a half dose should be alright... Even if she had an average metabolic rate, this stuff has a relatively short half-life. Also I've never medicated her, she was a new pet to me still and I wanted to make sure she wasn't allergic or something, so again I figured it would be best to use a half-dose. I'm personally VERY sensitive to NSAID's as well as medicines that are "related" to aspirin. Ugh... 

My dad was a dairy farmer. I think I did my first IV's at age 12; I administered vaccines(IM) even earlier. On top of that, I've worked in 2 different vets offices, as well as having been in charge of 6 and 7 figure horses on the track and at my old H/J barn. I want to say that I wouldn't make a mistake with medicine, but I'm obviously aware that realistically, everyone does make mistakes. I haven't yet but there is a first time for everything of course  I'm pretty aware of my own limitations too though. I think anyways. I don't hesitate to get my vet involved when I need to, but I didn't realize that something like this would happen. It didn't seem like an emergency. I guess that may be telling of my inexperience with rats though  

To the best of my knowledge, she hadn't gotten into anything. The only place that I let them run around unsupervised(I have 4 cats in the house) is in my room, sometimes the bathroom too, which I've completely "rat-proofed". The only thing that is a bit sketchy are the wires for my computer, but I haven't seen them chew any wires and even then, I'm not sure that it would cause these symptoms. 

I'm waiting for the only rat vet in my tri-city area to get to her office(Monday AM probably) because I'm considering asking for a necropsy, only because I still have Sally's full sister and if it's something genetic or even something contagious I want to know. I feel just awful. I want some answers. This is just so messed up. 

I'm kind of wondering if she had some type of internal issue that became exasperated by the medicine. I don't know.... Ugh. 

I don't know exactly what happened to her tail. Their cage is right at the foot of my bed, there was a big scuffle in the middle of the night, I was woken up by Sally's crying. When I turned on the lights she looked alright at first, on closer inspection it seemed like she had a bruise(it was purple discoloration) about an inch long, 2/3's of the way up her tail. It didn't seem to be painful. Above that, she had this hard, puffy nub. I assumed it was a broken tail because my cat's tail was broken in 3 spots(don't ask, her old owners are going to rot in ****) and it felt similar to those. I feel like a horrible owner writing all this out, I have not been very observant lately. 

There wasn't any broken skin on Sally's tail though.


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

So sorry to hear about Sally. It's heart breaking :-( 

If the cause is that important to you, maybe you should consider having your vet mate have a look. I know it's too late but maybe he can advise what possibly happened. 

Edit... Sorry just read again about the necro... (Spell??). I think it's a good idea. Will give you a piece of mind. 

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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

ibuprofen and metacham together can cause internal bleeding and ulcers. You should never mix medications without talking to a expert first.
I'm very sorry for your loss and I hate to be the one to say it but the blood in her mouth really makes me think that is what happened.

Metacham can stay in a rats system for up to a week.
I know this because I've had to switch a rat from it to another medication that would cause issues together and that is the recommended time you are supposed to wait.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Let us know what the necro comes back with if you have it done

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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

I dropped her off this morning, it shouldn't be too long before I hear something back... At least it will (hopefully)put my mind at ease. That or make me hate myself even more I guess. 

I don't mean to sound rude or defensive here, but Joker, did you read my second long post at all(the 3rd in total on this thread)? While I do appreciate your input and I realize you're only trying to help, I thought I'd made it clear that I was not just randomly jamming drugs down her throat. I very much regret dosing Sally. I realize that the medicine played a (huge)part in her death, I'm looking for information beyond that. While I admit that I don't have much experience with rats, I'm quite familiar with these drugs, I've been doing a ton of researching(on rats) and I keep in touch with my vets through the telephone and texting when/if I'm treating at home. I didn't feel that this was a situation that I couldn't handle. I felt comfortable treating Sally myself. Obviously something has gone terribly wrong- I'm trying very hard to learn from this awful experience. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else to do... if I could turn back time I would. 

Also Joker, I'm curious- how would you explain the prior episode of blood in her mouth that I explained about in my 2nd post on this thread? If it was the medicine alone that killed her, was this prior episode just a huge coincidence? 

I'm also curious about where you're getting this information that Metacam stays in their system for a week? I'd appreciate it if you could share your reference, that's very interesting. 

Believe me, I know ALL ABOUT bleeding stomachs from these types of drugs. The last time I took an Advil I was in bed for 3 days, unable to move. I'm normally a pretty tough cookie. I have a ridiculously high pain tolerance but this put me completely out. I agree that Sally's death seems to be the result of something similar... Ugh.


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

Drownsoda, I hope you find out. Sorry this is a morbid question and you don't have to answer if you don't want/cant. But where/how did you keep her until taking her in? 


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I thought maybe it was an overdose as well but then I can't explain the previous blood incident. Had that previous incident not happened I would say that it was an overdose or that she got into rat poison or asprin but you said that isn't possible. and like you said we all make mistakes but she sounds like she had a lot going on so I'm thinking it probably wasn't an overdose or fully caused by an overdose if there was an overdose. Did she have a history of long term respiratory infections? I wonder if maybe she had something wrong with her lungs like abscesses inside them which can be caused by sever myco infections. 



I believe Joker just recently had a rat on metacam I know he/she has been going through a lot of tough stuff rat wise so maybe she/he heard it from their vet. Also it says right on ratguide.com that metacam has a long serum half life. http://ratguide.com/meds/nsaids/meloxicam.php


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

First I wrapped her in a small piece of linen and made a sort-of coffin from a box, then I put her(in the linen, in the "coffin") into my refrigerator :| The receptionist at the clinic tried to tell me to put her into the freezer but my gut said that may not be the best idea... I couldn't help but think of the frozenness affecting any cells negatively, I was trying to be cautious. Dad's friend(whose a vet) said it was better in the fridge too.


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

Yeah I was thinking the same about the freezer. That is the reason why I asked. 

I never had to do this - so was just really curious. 

Hope everything works out. And please let us know when you get the results. 


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

Yeah, I read that as well, but by "long half-life" they mean 24 hours. I was reading on other websites about people dosing their rats literally 10x the amount I gave Sally(prescribed by their vets, of course) but then again she was young... Ugh, it's hard to say. 

Even the negative info. I've read about Metacam use in rats(same stuff that's been rehashed about cats and dogs for years now) mentioned that when problems/negative side effects occur it's after repetitive use; the writers even admitted that a single dose is a good jumpstart to establishing a daily anti-flammatory regime. 

I'm leaning towards the medicine exacerbating some sort of condition... Not that that would make me feel any better. I'm still responsible  

She didn't have any respiratory problems at all. Her sister has had symptoms of a URI off and on since I brought them home but I'd never even heard Sally so much as sneeze. She was healthy, happy and playful up until her last breaths. She looked great. I don't get it.


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

Oh, and another thing that I keep forgetting to bring up. I'm not sure if this goes for rats but in humans it's not uncommon for an overdose to hit up to 36 hours after taking the drugs, depending on the substance of course. It was not long at all after I gave her the second bit(less than an hour probably), so although it does sound like an OD the timing wouldn't really match up. Or at least that's what I'm trying to tell myself so that I don't have a breakdown. joking, sort of, lol  I can't tell if I'm just making excuses for myself now. If nothing else, it's a lesson learned- experience with other animals doesn't necessarily relate to rats as well as I thought it did :|


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

I don't think it was the meds, but I am only basing my opinion on a gut feeling and nothing else Especially not experience. It just appear that you were extra careful before giving the medicine. 
When do you hear? 


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I didn't see your other posts but I've read them now and regardless I stick by what I said.
I never once accused you of doing any of the things your saying I did, I think you just took my post the wrong way.

I got my information from my vet who worked with rats in a lab setting for 15 years. I don't want to go into detail on what all he did because it's not very... nice to talk about and would likely hurt a lot of peoples feelings.
But one of the things he was involved in is medicating rats to 'see what happens'.
I go to him for my rats and one of my rats needed to be switched from Metacham to a steroid pain killer he said to take him off of it and wait a week to make absolutely sure it was out of his system.

So far as the first episode of blood in her mouth. Yes she could have had a internal issue that the medication made worse.
That is just why you shouldn't medicate any animal without having them looked at by someone familiar with the species.
I don't want you to take this the wrong way I'm not trying to be mean. I know you've dealt with a lot of animals before but you should still seek out a vet familiar with rats in these situations.
Vets can only do so much over the phone and the information you find on the internet is not always true.
Regardless you did your best for her and I hope the necro sheds some light on what happened.
Should she have had a internal issue there's no way you could have known anyways so you shouldn't feel to bad about it.
I'm very sorry for your loss.

I never once accused you of shoving meds down her throat willy nilly. I just said you shouldn't medicate a animal without seeing a vet.
I'm sorry if I offended you it wasn't intended. These are just my opinions, I would never medicate one of my animals without seeing my vet unless it was a do or die situation even though I've dealt with animals my whole life. You seem to have taken my post the wrong way and you didn't say you were looking for insight beyond the medication but that you wanted opinions on how she died.
Everyone makes mistakes and I wasn't trying to make you feel bad.


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

Jokerfest said:


> I didn't see your other posts but I've read them now and regardless I stick by what I said.
> I never once accused you of doing any of the things your saying I did, I think you just took my post the wrong way.
> 
> I got my information from my vet who worked with rats in a lab setting for 15 years. I don't want to go into detail on what all he did because it's not very... nice to talk about and would likely hurt a lot of peoples feelings.
> ...


I took what you said in your first post the same way Drownsoda et. all did. Are you going to say "sorry you feel that way" to me too or acknowledge your response was a little callous and apologize appropriately? Everyone on this forum encourages medicating for certain ailments. There are innumerable stickies, threads, and posts advising fellows to medicate and administer drugs. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum that encourages such behavior.

Drown, as a fellow horse person, I know how cautious we can be when administering drugs. FTR, Zurfaces, administering drugs is a daily part of a horse-owner's life and is not done "willy-nilly" or without appropriate caution. I think you did everything in your care that you could, Drown, and I am so sorry for your loss. Jingles. xo


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

How is me saying not to mix medications without talking to a expert saying she gave her medications willy nilly? :\
Just like you're allowed your opinion I'm allowed mine. I don't think people should. You think they should to a certain extent.
I still don't understand but I am sorry, that's what I was trying to say, I'm sorry I came across like that and that it wasn't intended.
I did not say that to attack her in anyway. I said it because it's what I believe happened.
You can take it however you like, I wont post on this topic anymore after this because I dont want to cause the OP anymore distress than my first post likely did. I should have thought it through better I'm sure but at the time I didn't see how it could be offensive.
Warning someone that this could happen regardless of their experience doesn't seem like it could be offensive to me.
When you self medicate any animal you take a risk something will happen and I'm not going to back down and say I'm wrong for saying that.
You're free to message me if you want to debate this further but I doubt the OP wants me filling up her topic with this.

OP I'm very sorry for how I came across, like I tried to say in my last post. I did not mean for it to be taken that way.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I just read Jokerfest's first post and it didn't seem intentionally aggressive at all. Sometimes it's hard to read the difference between showing cause for concern in a hardened way and someone being overly critical. What I read was them giving their brief insight on the situation. I expected to be reading some huge paragraph chastising the OP for what happened, pointing fingers etc but it wasn't, just a short remark on how they perceived the rat's death. Nothing to get riled up about people! At the the end of the day everyone expresses their concern for events such as these in different ways. Even if I were experienced with other kinds of animals I'd still see a vet about one I've never medicated on myself, because I wouldn't be trained in that area (this is hypothetically speaking). I highly doubt Jokerfest was trying to doubt any of the OP's or ratchet's experience with medicating other animals. I'd always see a vet, for my animal's safety first and foremost. 

That's not to say that an overdose caused this to happen, we won't even know until we get the necropsy results. But I think Jokerfest was just opening up the possibilities as was necessary and I know it's not something someone would like to hear, but it is a possibility. Nobody should take that as negative criticism and act defensively.

Besides this argument however, I'd like to express my condolences for you drownsoda. It must've been horrible for your rat to pass in such a state and I wish for all the best of your results.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss, drownsoda, and also sorry that I have no advice to offer.

To everyone participating in this thread, please understand that grief can cause misunderstandings and in our world of text posts anyway, meanings and true intentions can be misinterpreted in our words. Everyone here at the Rat Forum is here because we love rats and want to share and learn with everyone in the hobby.

Any further hypotheses are welcomed, I'm sure, but it looks like this is a waiting game now with the necropsy.


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

Hey Drownsoda - just wondering how you are doing... Update? 


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## drownsoda (Mar 8, 2013)

Hello again everyone!

Wow, it's been awhile, hasn't it?! 

Between working full-time, getting back into school, separating from my (common-law)husband of 10 years, moving, plus experiencing health and personal problems I haven't had much free-time for internets stuff like forums. I kept telling myself that I'd sign onto here to give you all a quick update on my girls, but life managed to keep coming up with more and more ways to keep me distracted. "I'll post an update tonight" I told myself (almost!)everyday, which eventually turned into "I'll post an update tomorrow night!" and... well, I'm sure you know how it is. 

Anyways, I'm here now. 

Sally's necropsy revealed that she was asphyxiated by crunchy peanut butter. Yeah, I have no idea what to say about that. I was completely unaware that could happen and I still feel guilty about it. Lesson learned: DON'T FEED PEANUT BUTTER TO YOUR CRITTERS!! I've been planning on starting a bit of an advocacy venture regarding sharing my & Sally's experience by hanging/handing-out informative flyers/pamphlet-type literature at veterinary offices, pet stores, high-traffic areas and the like. Pass on the message! 

I plan on scanning or copying/transcribing the details of the necropsy report to share online as soon as I can find it again(my paper records haven't been as well-organized as they should be since the move but I'll get there eventually...). 

Of course I still have Molly(Sally's really teensy, tiny sister)  She's still the most adorable little girl I've ever seen and she's still sooooooo full of personality... I love her dearly <3 I think she's like my soul-mate in rat form, lol! <3 I thought she'd be lonely so I got her a hairless friend from the breeder who sold me Molly and Sally. All her babies that I've met so far are the sweetest, most loving, docile little things... she does a good job raising them, for sure. Anyways, Molly's friend is named Paisley. I don't have any pictures at the moment, I think I"m the only person on the planet without a cellphone. I have a good camera, I need to get it up and running though, which has been a chore.... the battery in it(camera) has died and of course it's a weird, old battery that's seemingly becoming more and more difficult to find. Hmm... sounds like a good excuse to go shopping


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Oh man! Yea peanut butter is a choking hazard unless watered down. I'm sorry you found out the hard way.  at least she had some yummy peanut butter before she died right? :\

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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

Peanut butter is also extremely salty and fatty so it's not ideal in big chunks generally, although I find it's strong taste/smell really helps rats to take yucky medicine on a little bit of bread; I do however smear it very, very thinly, barely a dot of it, because of the choking hazard. It's a shame poor Sally died because of PNB but at least you now know the danger of it, which will keep your other rats safer. Sounds like you've had a rough time recently, at least little Molly is a bit of sunshine for you, I know my rats perk me up no end when things are going badly.


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. When one of my rats passed she had what looked like blood come out her nose and mouth but it was more like porferin (sp) the red stuff when they get stressed. Alot came out but she passed fast and I don't believe it was painful. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

So sorry for your loss it's always hard to loose a loved pet, and I can't imagine how hard it was for you to experience that. But I'm glad you didn't shut out your other rat Molly and I'm sure you and Molly and Paisley will have lots of good memories to come.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Well, I always heard about peanut butter being on the non-edible list for rats but now I've heard about this, it's a definite no-no for me! I'm very sorry for your loss and the circumstances which lead to her death, but at least you now have an answer and can increase awareness of this issue.


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## liesel (Feb 13, 2013)

So sorry to hear about your loss. Very thankful I read this though cause I would have never thought peanut butter to be deathly. I always thought it was just hard for them to swallow. Wow definitely never giving them any now.


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