# Baytril/Amoxy: URI treatment on a tight budget.



## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

I preface this with the usual disclaimer that if you are not familiar with diagnosing and treating URIs, see a professional first!

I have been trying different methods for treating one of my boys that has a chronic URI/mycoplasma issue. I tried the standard Doxyballs recipe http://ratguide.com/meds/figures/compounding_medications_figure_1.php but my rats don't like peanut butter. Thought I would pass on what I found works the best for him.... Nutellaballs!

I found that Nutella has a very interesting property- when you mix it with a little water, it gets very thick and handles easily for rolling into balls. Combine that info with a 10% aqueous Baytril solution (http://www.finchniche.com/product_baytril.php) available for Parrots and amoxycillin from here http://www.aquaticpharmacy.com/eshop and you have a chap and easy way to treat a chronic URI. You can also do just Baytril, or substitute Doxy for the Amoxy. I found that for my particular rat, the baytril/amoxy combo works best. Whatever you use, the process is the same.

What you need- Scale, some way to measure milliliters (syringe, pipette, graduated cylinder...), Nutella, salt, flour, ruler, tablespoon, drugs.
Please read over the Doxyballs web page, because that is the basic protocol I use- http://ratguide.com/meds/figures/compounding_medications_figure_1.php

First, know your rat's weight. If you have a scale, great. Tare the scale with a small box, put the rat in the box, then weigh! If not.. use a hanger. http://www.thestay-at-home-momsurvivalguide.com/2013/03/hanger-scale-toy.html. Water weighs 1 gm/ml, so use that to find out how heavy your rat is... as long as you are close it will be ok. 

Once you know the weight, figure out the dose- http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/ I'll use my 400g rat as an example. the Baytril dose I use is 10 mg/kg, so (10 mg/kg)x(0.4 kg)= 4 mg for one dose. The other medication is Amoxycillin, which you may notice from that web page I list is 10 mg/*Lb*... so that is 10 mg/*0.45 kg* or 22.2 mg/kg, so the dose is 8.88 mg. The Amoxycillin comes in 250 mg capsules. The Baytril is in a 100 mg/ml solution, so you are limited by how to measure the amoxy (unless you have a milligram scale), but can vary the Baytril easily with a 1 ml syringe that is supplied with it. Each Amoxy capsule has (250 mg)/(8.88 mg)= ~28 doses, so I will add 28 doses of Baytril solution to the amoxy powder, which would be (4 mg)/(100 mg/ml)x(28)=1.12 ml. Mix these together in a small glass dish to get a suspension (amoxy doesn't really dissolve) and then add a dash of salt (not essential, but it helps reduce the bitter drug taste) and a Tablespoon (~15 ml) of Nutella. I've found this Tablespoon Nutella : 1 ml water is a good ratio for getting a workable consistency. 
Use a fork to mix the nutella and drugs together- notice how viscus the nutella gets. Keep mixing/cutting it till homogeneous. Roll the mixture out on the counter to make a "snake" that is 28 cm long, then cut with a knife into 28 sections, each 1 cm long. Roll into balls, coat lightly with flour to keep them from sticking together, and store in the fridge.
I find that this ratio of nutella to drug tastes ok so that they eat it well, but other rats may like a different ratio.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I do want to warn though that Nutella has skim milk so therefor is dairy and can't be used with certain drugs. Tetracycline to be specific although their might be more. I was thinking about doing that for my girl she HATES Metacam and sulfa/trimeth combo they have her on after her surgery. It's cherry flavored but she spits it up and drools every time I give it to her.


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## Pixxie (Jun 3, 2012)

Funny that you should mention this. Nixon haaaaates Baytril/Cipro and only will take it if mixed with chocolate syrup. Though I should mention, as far as I am aware, all of the cyclines (Doxycycline, Tetracycline, etc.) should not be used with milk products. A further suggestion is to use the same dose your vet has given you in the past for the medicines you are now dosing yourself. That way, there is no doubt they are getting the right dose (assuming that the vet is right!). 

Also, you can order needless syringes of all sizes offline for super cheap. I got mine from Drs. Foster and Smith for 10 cents each.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

The amount of milk in the Nutella in relation to the amount if drug is quite small, and does not appear to affect the treatment, as this works to clear up myco flair-ups every time. I tried chocolate syrup, but my finiky rat refused it after the 3rd dose.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mousey (Oct 23, 2012)

You should not have posted this (I'm sure many people could have posted this but didn't for this very reason), you are encouraging people over the internet to diagnose and treat their own rats - who now will try to, and could make the wrong diagnosis by reading a symptom wrong, overdose their rat by making the wrong calculation, etc. Not a good idea.

And to add - you shouldn't be mixing fish pills because you can never tell how much you're _really_ drawing up.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Really? Hmmm. I thought it would be useful for those who do not have an exotic vet nearby, or can't afford one. Diagnosing a URI is described in great detail in many rat sites; it's not difficult. But maybe I'm overestimating people's IQ. The math... Well, that's 6th grade level... Nothing fancy. If you mess that up then you probably should not have rats... Lol.
However, it is almost impossible to overdose a rat with this method, because the rat won't eat it if it tastes bad, which even a 2x dose certainly does. I tried it.
The amoxicillin, baytril and doxy I have are identical to what you get from a pharmacy. I ran them through the LC/MS @ my lab to find out.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Mousey said:


> You should not have posted this (I'm sure many people could have posted this but didn't for this very reason), you are encouraging people over the internet to diagnose and treat their own rats - who now will try to, and could make the wrong diagnosis by reading a symptom wrong, overdose their rat by making the wrong calculation, etc. Not a good idea.
> 
> And to add - you shouldn't be mixing fish pills because you can never tell how much you're _really_ drawing up.


No they aren't, they're giving people a suitable alternative when money is tight? It's not hard to figure out if you have a basic grasp on maths. If you can't figure out your dosages, you can have a lot of money wasted on vet consultations that will tell you what you already knew. Besides, dr.zapp was really referring to the method of giving the meds, the Nutella balls, which could be useful to administer meds even if you have a prescription from the vet. I didn't particularly like the tone you were taking with this post - if you're going to criticize at least be mindful when you're doing it.

Another point may I add - dr.zapp is some kind of scientist (I've seen their posts before about new ways of neutering boys). They certainly know their stuff.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

A follow-up on the effect of the milk in Nutella on drug effectiveness. It is high concentrations of sodium, calcium, iron and magnesium that actually bind these drugs (Baytril, Doxy) and interfere with absorption (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...s/a682063.html). Nutella has 8.7% skim milk, but the amount of calcium does not appear to interfere with the drug effectiveness. This table shows Nutella to be close to peanut butter in sodium, iron and calcium content- http://www.nutella.com.au/nutrition/


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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm sure there are dairy-free alternatives to nutella? Anyway, out of curiosity, approximately how long would these drug balls last in the fridge? On reading the info, I was expecting you to say the freezer. The link you gave doesn't suggest an expiry date, unless I missed it.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Not sure how long they will really last, but the standard line is 14 days. If you froze them they would last longer, but I have not data on how much.


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