# Introductions Not Going Well



## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

Summary:
Luna, Emmy, and Belle are 2.5 years old females and have been introduced to two adolescents before and one adult female with no problems.
Smudge and Piper are 10 week old rat babies.

So this has been a month long process that I thought would be over now! I have three adult females and recently got 2 baby females. They have met a total of 8 times now and it isn't going well. I started out with them having their cages near each other and switching cages for the last three weeks. No one showed any aggressive or territorial signs. I started out bath introductions with them wet. They were too busy grooming themselves to notice each other and stressed from the water. I decided not to have them wet during introductions after that. The following bath introductions went okay. Luna would puff up a bit and show some territorial signs at first but that would fade within the first 5 minutes and 20 minutes later she would be grooming the babies and sharing treats. Smudge showed some dominance signs and would attempt to mount the other girls. After doing a handful of these introductions, I moved to another neutral floor space. Luna again would occasionally show territorial behavior by pushing her side against the walls, but never targeted or went after a baby. Smudge would show dominance signs by pushing against the other girls and refusing to be mounted. Once or twice during each 20 minute session there would be a squabble of baby vs adult. Lots of squeaks but never any blood so I figured it would be okay.

I moved on to the carrier method and had them together for 40 minutes. Piper ended up trapped in a corner and was standing up against Luna and Emmy. They backed off after a few tense seconds. The old girls ended up on one side and the babies on the other. Otherwise no fights and all rats were too focused on trying to get out.

Last night I decided they were ready to try living together in my triple critter nation. I deep cleaned the cage and removed all toys and hammocks. I put them all in. Piper was terrified and frozen in place. Smudge was trying to dominate Luna. Luna and Smudge were both puffed up and standing towards each other. On the other side of the cage, Emmy was trying to power groom Piper. Piper tried to kick her off and they ended up fighting. Piper ran off and was alright but Emmy had been bitten in the foot and was bleeding. I called it enough and put them back in their cages.

This morning I put them back together on the neutral floor space. This time, all of the rats puffed up. Luna was again rubbing her side on the cage. Smudge was going up to all of the others and trying to push them with her body. Emmy attempted to power groom Piper but Piper stood up and they were in a boxing position. Smudge and Luna ended up getting into a squabble. This was within 5 minutes and I was far too stressed to let it continue.

I need some advice or guidance. What should I do next? The situations are so tense and stressful now. I don't know where to take it next now that there has been blood drawn. It seems like both groups want to be the dominant ones. I don't know what to do having a dominant adult and dominant baby go head to head, I feel like I am asking for trouble.


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

I want to add that yesterday I had them in neutral floor space for two hours before moving to the small carrier for 40 minutes, and then finally to the cage. Emmy was bitten and bleeding 4 minutes after all of the rats were placed in the cage. I am getting worried that introductions will only get worse as the babies age and I am worried about that 12-13 week cut off where it becomes more difficult.


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## Lunchy (Aug 28, 2017)

I want to ask about the cage - do the older rats live in there already? I have males so no experience with females, but I found that when I introduced a young rat to my older males that I had to remove everything from the cage and deep clean it and its contents before putting everything back in. That way, it was like new territory for all the rats, not just the new boy. 

Otherwise, the carrier method is actually a very long and drawn out method that maybe isn't being properly exploited here. I have posted before about how I did it with my boys, including photos of the carrier and cages used, which you can read here:
http://www.ratforum.com/showthread....ded-(-introducing-rats)&p=2463809#post2463809

I'm wondering if perhaps the carrier you're using is maybe too big - really to begin with they shouldn't have much space at all - so they're forced to be close. If they have space to back each other into corners there's too much space. 

Have a read of that other post - maybe it will give you some pointers to reattempt the carrier method. I wish you luck!


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## MRM (Dec 26, 2016)

Lunchy said:


> Otherwise, the carrier method is actually a very long and drawn out method that maybe isn't being properly exploited here. I have posted before about how I did it with my boys, including photos of the carrier and cages used, which you can read here:
> http://www.ratforum.com/showthread....ded-(-introducing-rats)&p=2463809#post2463809
> 
> I'm wondering if perhaps the carrier you're using is maybe too big - really to begin with they shouldn't have much space at all - so they're forced to be close. If they have space to back each other into corners there's too much space.
> ...


Your carrier method post was great. Very helpful to see the photos of how small the carriers were and what you size you moved up to in each stage (also the timing of each stage)! Thank you for posting that!!


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## Lunchy (Aug 28, 2017)

MRM said:


> Your carrier method post was great. Very helpful to see the photos of how small the carriers were and what you size you moved up to in each stage (also the timing of each stage)! Thank you for posting that!!


You're welcome! The timings should go on your observations, I took mine very slow because we'd had problems before, but people seem to like it as a good guideline. I think a lot of people misunderstand how it should be used, and use bigger cat carriers for the first stage which allows space for fighting...

Edit: the carrier comes out when they are in squabbly moods too! They do not fight at all in there, so if they're bad any evening, they get popped in it for a while as a time-out which calms them down. Apparently the other night, the mismatched hooded and black Berkshire were fighting on the couch, so my fiance put the carrier on the couch open, and they jumped in and let him close it. They know what it's for lol!


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

I think my next step will be to use the carrier method with a smaller carrier. 

The older girls have lived in the triple critter nation their whole lives. Although I deep cleaned it and removed the toys I think they still know it is their territory and thus were more aggressive towards the pushy babies. They know all of the levels, ladders etc and are familiar with the cage. I hadn't added the toys back because I knew they would be territorial over their toys. They have used the same hammock for 2 years, so they know it is their hammock.

The cage I used as a carrier may have been slightly too big. It is a hamster cage, but I think they have too much room to get cornered. I actually have a very small travel cage I may use because it also has rounded edges. This way none of the rats will feel cornered because there isn't any corners.

With this group I am going to take it extremely slow, likely keeping them in the small cages for a few nights due to the tension between them. To be honest the whole process is extremely stressful for all of us.


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

Update, so I started the carrier method... I placed my calmest girl, Belle along with the two babies in the carrier. It's the same carrier that Lunchy used for her step one of the carrier method. Belle puffed up 30 seconds later and attacked Piper four times. Piper lost clumps of fur in the process and was bitten. I ended it and now am feeling a bit defeated.

Emmy and Luna, didn't even make it in to the carrier with the babies.


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

Okay, so Piper was just scratched. Last and for all I am going to try this one last time before giving up. I placed all rats in right at once. Luna and Smudge have fought once. Wish me luck because my group needs it right now.


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