# Feeling hopeless :( - biting issues



## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

So I have 2 male rats I bought for my 10 year old son 3 months ago. We read up on them and did everything we could to be good rat parents. (They have a large cage with comfy hiding spots, a hammock, toys etc), we let them out of the cage for 1 to 3 hours every day, we provide them with large tubes and boxes outside the cage and we hide treats and food for them to forage for. I used to sit on the floor and they will come right up to me and climb on me.

So one of them, Smokey, is just a biter. He's not angry or afraid, he just bites everyone constantly. He bites me when I'm trying to put their food bowl in their cage, when i'm trying to open their cage door, when he climbs on me, he nips my ankles and toes, my fingers, my arms, anything he can. He's chewed the hammock off a few times. 

I tried not to act afraid, I would EEP! to show it hurt, etc. Last time he bit me so hard I had 2 large puncture wounds on my hand and it injured my tendon. It's been weeks and it's still tender. Now we are all afraid of the rats. We practically throw their food bowl in there (still with home cooked balanced meals lol). 

We noticed they were peeing and pooping on our son's bed, and our bed when we let them out in our rooms. The rest of the house has an open floor plan and a huge drop to the basement (just has a railing that wouldn't stop them). We still let them out, but we do not stay in the room with them. We moved them to our larger bathroom, set up boxes with sheets in them, tubes, rat toys and treat boxes, and even a comfy chair (trying to keep it entertaining for them). They jump up on the vanity, they chewed through wires (we removed them), they ate the bottom of our closet door, they chewed up our cabinets, and they burrowed a hole in the wall near our baseboard. Tonight is the second night we have not let them out of their cage.

They obviously need to be supervised, but 1- everyone is afraid of them now and 2- noone wants to sit in a bathroom for an hour or more. I feel terrible, I can barely look at them when I walk by they run to the cage excited to see me. But I'm just too scared to try to hang out with them again. He bites me through my clothing, he climbs up to my shoulder and I'm so scared he will bite my face. He's not attacking me I don't think, he seems happy and curious, I think he is just a biter?

This is our first rat experience, and we were so excited to cuddle and play with them, and now I feel like I'm just keeping them captive. The other one (Sox) had nipped me a few times but it was gently (like a mouthing puppy), he hasn't hurt me more than once or twice and even then not hard enough to draw blood. But after my experience with Smokey I just don't trust either of them (and it's not like I can play with one without the other running over to me).

Any insight to this biting problem? I'm afraid I should rehome them with someone more experienced. I hate to think I'm not giving them a fair amount of attention. I was told they were juveniles when I purchased them (they have grown since then - 3 months ago) - and this one has always been a biter.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Hello and welcome to the forums,

I posted on your other thread with some questions. Maybe you can answer them here to keep it all in one place.

What are you doing exactly when you get bitten? Retrace your steps. Does it happen only inside the cage or outside of it as well? Do you sense a pattern when it comes to his biting? Maybe you are handling food or another pet and then touch him, forgetting to wash your hands in between?​

Does he lunge at you or bite when cornered? Do his bites draw blood? The fights between the two of them do not seem concerning.​


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Do your hands smell like scented soap, body lotion?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pet store rats often come unsocialized or with behavioral problems. The guy from the pet store probably lied when he said the rats were well socialized. It could be that he has been abused at the pet store and very certainly at the rat mill he came from- he simply might not trust hands. Have you read the thread about trust training under behavior?


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

I do wash my hands after I read an article about biting. He bites me whenever he has access to my skin. Once i had my hand in their cage and i was touching the other rat. I figured I invaded his space. But he has bitten me outside of the cage, i sit on the floor when i let the out, he will run up to me, climb on my leg, over my arms, and when he finds a hand he bites it. I do not corner him or try to pick him up. I just sit there and let them come to me. I have also seen him chew the bars of the cage, he bit my husband as well, and he has bitten me several times when I was trying to open the cage to let them out. He draws blood almost every time now. He doesn't seem to "lunge" at me, but he does run up to me, or runs over to my hand (if hes on the bottom level of the cage and i reach in the top to change the food he runs up there to bite me.
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Ok, I read what you posted in the other thread. It sounds like he has developed a fear of hands based on negative experiences in the pet store. Have you tried using oven mitts or gardening gloves when handling him? Have you tried giving him yogurt or baby food off a spoon? You need to start associating your hands and fingers with positive experience. Eventually the trust will come.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

I would highly recommend this article on trust training and reading the section section about nervous rats. http://www.ratfanclub.org/trust.html


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

I have been using gloves made for chefs that you can't cut through. He still nips at them but at least he can't really pierce me and it give me a little time to get away. I will read that article. Can I ask also what you guys do for giving them out of cage time? After they peed a few times on our beds we banished them to a large bathroom, but they have been digging at the baseboards and trying to get into everything, quite destructively. I let them out tonight using my cutting gloves, and I spend the entire time moving them away from the hole they are digging in the wall- they seem less interested with me and the treats, and more interested in escaping. Lol i'm trying so hard and they hate me. Sigh.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Try to give them something like baby food, apple sauce, a little yogurt, smashed banana with a little peanut butter mixed in it. Use only smooth peanut butter and in small quantity as rats can choke on it or smear some PB directly on the spoon. Obviously put your gloves on. How do they behave? Do they come for the tread? The goal of using a spoon and things like apple sauce is that they can't run away with the whole treat but have to come back for more.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The owing on your bed is probably not prong but pee marking. Intact male rats do that a lot. I have a neutered male rat and he never pee marked anywhere. You could get them neutered to take care of that- it doesn't always work to stop pee marking entirely but it does decrease it a lot.


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm assuming that I got rats that were not properly socialized or treated before I got them. These guys were supposed to be my child's first pet, and I feel like it's turning into a huge burden for me, and a huge disappointment for my son. I know that sounds cold. I've had many pets, fostered animals etc. But he's absolutely terrified of them, he can't care for them at all, and I'm charged with rehabilitation on top of being the only person in the house willing to go in the same room as them. Is it true that other rats people get would never bite hard and do make great pets? I read so many amazing things about them, we were very excited to try this out. I'm feeling quite defeated. They are cute but i wonder if i couldn't exchange them :/ this isn't what i signed up for. I have 3 little kids (ages 4, 8 and 10), and i work 2 jobs. I chose rats specifically because from what I read they bit less than other rodent pets. :/


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

They both will eat from my hand. They don't seem to be afraid of me. I try not to feed them with my hands I was afraid they were associating my fingers with food. When I walk into the room they are in Smokey will stand on my shoe and try to climb up my leg. After a moment he is off and running and chewing up my walls again lol


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

I am sorry you are having such a negative experience with these rats. Pet store rats are notoriously known for being under socialized and usually receive little handling, hence the fear of hands. For out time, there are many options. Here are some of the things we do:

1.) Bed. If the bed is high enough, you can use it as a rat playground. When we have babies who are not yet toilet trained, we cover the whole bed with a huge piece of fleece (1.5-2 yards) and set up some toys, tunnels, a wheel, boxes from drinks or food and have a bottle of treats at the ready. Then, when they pee or poop, it isn't a big deal - just pick up the droppings and throw the whole fleece sheet into the laundry when you are done with play time. 
2.) The bathroom or hallway. The reason why people suggest this is because they are usually small spaces that can be easily rat proofed. Same principle as the bed, toys on the ground etc. You can read a book, listen to music or do something else to occupy yourself whilst they explore. Eventually they will climb you and seek you out for interactions, when they do approach you, gently throw or give them treats.
3.) Buy or DIY a playpen. We made one ourselves our of sheets of wood/something similar from home depot or lowes. You have them cut little slots in each plank so that they can then slot together to form a high sided cube. If you look up DIY rat playpen in google, you can get some good ideas there.
4.) The other option is to rat proof an entire room (making sure they cannot do damage to themselves or the building) and allow them to free range.


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

Sorry for the rant. It's a lot to handle right now. I did try the bed, they leap off it. They can jump really high too! I currently let them out in my bathroom. The weird thing is they have been shredding the bottom of the doors to the linen closet, they leave little pieces of wood slivers all over from ripping apart the door... they also are digging into the sheet rock around the baseboard heater, they can get in a little part of the wall now. I can't seem to find a safe place that they don't get into trouble somehow. Could their burrowing and destructive behavior be tied in with the biting?


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Just to give you some perspective. We recently adopted a boy who was very nervous. At first, he was biting our hands in fear but when he became more comfortable (probably around 3 weeks) he stopped biting us. There was an instance where he actually nibbled my husbands eyelid and drew blood so we were quite nervous around him - especially when he came close to our face. Just like your boy, he no longer seemed scared of us. We chalked it down to curiosity since he is about 4 months old and still quite young. We realized that he probably did not have very many opportunities to test bite other people in his previous home. He does not bite any more and it has been a couple of months since he came to us. He is still hand shy and hates being picked up though.

Another rat we got was highly rat and people aggressive but only inside his cage (cage territorial). We rescues him from a hoarding situation where rats were elevating themselves off the bars permanently because there wasn't enough floor space. This gives you an idea of why he was so afraid. He took over 6 months to accept us and stop biting us. We still had to take special precautions when cleaning his cage.

My point is that rats can be rehabilitated but it can often be a lengthy journey.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

If they are afraid, it can definitely be tied to the destruction because their fear makes them want to escape. They may also be bored. Are they provided with anything to do whilst in the cage and outside of it? Things like wheels, tubes, puzzles. You could also try clicker training them. Rats are extremely intelligent and I do the training with my most active boy to tire him out. It could be something simple like coming to you when called by their name and clicking, then rewarding. 


I would try to do some research on making a playpen and doing supervised out time sessions in it (30 minutes to an hour at first) so they do not destroy anything or get frantic. Maybe invest in a puzzle or two, some tunnels, some bird toys etc.
Look up trust training. If you are any decent at sewing, you can make a bonding pouch or ratoob to help you bond with these guys. Wear a shirt you do not like for a day and then give it to them (in the cage) so they associate it with your smell. Feeding them food with your hand is a good thing but if you are distrustful, you can start by using a long spoon with baby food on it, then slowly reduce the length between you and the rat as you and he get more comfortable.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Here is a link to some play pen ideas. http://www.goosemoose.com/rfc/index.php?topic=4108176.0 Making one out of hardboard is quite cheap but a little clunky to set up and store because the sheets are quite big. Might be worth a shot though so they stop destroying your house!


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

They have inside the cage: a hammock, a crinkle tube and 2 chew toys. I also have tried giving them a ping pong ball (they ate it) and cardboard tubes (they ignore them). If they are going to be in their cage overnight i put a puzzle in there.

Outside the cage I turned the bathroom into a rat playhouse (i think). They have several cardboard boxes (one with a hole and a huge cardboard tube they seem to like to run through it ends in one box with a sheet in it, 2 puzzles that I randomly hide grapes or yogurt treats in, and a few other towels to hide in as well as my 4 year old's little plush chair they seem to enjoy being on. 

I am too afraid of Smokey to wear him in a pouch. He does take food from my hand but he runs away with it. The last time he bit me it was so hard and possibly permanently damaging, I'm pretty scared to take any more chances with him. I've been trying to let him come to me and all that for 3 months now and it seems to be getting worse. He rather live in my wall than with all the toys and treats in the world. 
Let's say I take on 3 more months of this and manage to get him to trust me- he still wouldn't trust my 10 year old right? And I would never feel safe having my younger kids around him either. In the meantime I will try the playpen idea because I can't stand the idea of not letting them out of the cage every day. I'll also read up more on the training and sleep on all of this.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Did you try the spoon with applesauce or baby food or yogurt? Is he coming back for more treat? If you were to neuter him or both, the aggression would go down significantly and probably the biting too as a result. Is any of your kids feeding him through the bars?


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## MeganR (Mar 25, 2016)

*Ecourageent*

Hi there,
I am a newbie rat owner as well. I read through this thread and just wanted to share my experience with you, because I don't want you to think that all rats are biters or that you have to have a lot of experience to own them. I just got my babies on Tuesday. I am a teacher and plan on having them in my classroom while I am there, so I was very concerned about temperament. I know a lot of people get rats from pet stores and have no problems, but I also know that they can sometimes come with issues and I can't take that much of a risk having them in my classroom. I actually drove 2 hours to get my two babies from a breeder. 
I talked with her about what I wanted to be able to do with my rats and asked her if she had a pair of male dumbo rats that would fit that description. (I specifically wanted dumbo rats because their faces look unique and I know that some parents might be apprehensive about rats, particularly if they look like too much their wild cousins). Anyway, my guys are 5 weeks old. They have nibbled me fingers, but NEVER bit. They are naturally very gentle and sweet (I'm sure in part because of their parents, and in part because the breeder and her children handled them). They have already started to bond with me and will run around my couch and come back to me if they get frightened. They try to groom my eyelashes if they get close to my face! They have both played "tag" with my hand as well. I just wanted to tell you this, because I don't want you to think that rats are bad pets, or that all rats are biters. I don't know anything about rehabilitation, so I can't speak to that. Are your rats neutered? I don't know from personal experience, but I have read several places that neutering can help if the rat is just being aggressive. (I would ask others first, because I am not experienced, but it would be worth looking into.)
Good luck!


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Pet store rats are bred at mills. These are places where rats are bred for quantity, not quality. The parents and babies get no human interaction other than to be moved from cage to shipping container, babies are often separated from mommas as soon as they are able to eat on their own and don't get the proper amount of socialization or learning from her. It's no wonder that often they are screwed up pets. When you get a rat that is already screwed up it is possible to socialize it, but it can be hard.

When you get rats from reputable breeders, they may cost more, but their parents have been chosen for pet traits as docility, energy, curiosity, as well as color and conformation. Good breeders handle the babies from an early age, keep babies with their mommas for a longer time, and don't adopt them out until they are ready. Rescues try to socialize and work with problem rats to make them suitable for pets. This is part of why breeders and rescues are recommended sources for pet rats. 

Many, many of us have adopted pet store rats and hit it lucky. Others of us have had to learn how to socialize screwed up rats like yours. It can be done. Generally, rats have less of a reputation for biting than say hamsters or gerbils, but some do bite. The first rats I owned came from rescues. I had 13 rats at one point and the only biter was one that was adopted from a feeder breeder with her litter and as soon as her litter was old enough to be weaned, her attitude and biting behavior changed. Then I got a rat that had been bought as a feeder, but wasn't eaten by the snake til he grew too large for her to eat. When I got Petey he bit. He bit first and asked questions later. I was afraid of him. When he bit me, I never eeped, I said "NO!" I sometimes bopped his nose, very gently only slightly more than just touching his nose. I used the immersion method to get past this with him and it took about 10 days to resolve his issues with me and mine with him. He is now the sweetest little boy. I chronicled much of our story here: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?267114-I-m-not-sure-I-can-do-this. I really recommend looking at the immersion thread stickied in the behavior section of the forum. Reading the first three pages or so should give you an idea of how it works.

Also, the easiest/best playpen idea I've seen is to cut one of these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-16-in-x...3003/202090190 in half lengthwise so you have 2- 2'X8' panels. You join the panels into a large circle for play and put it against a wall or some out of the way place in between. It's available at Home Depot and cuts with scissors. One of these can be set up just about anywhere with toys and stuff set inside like you are doing in the bathroom and allows you an opportunity to supervise.

I am 66 and over my lifetime I have had a number of pets that need socialization; parakeets, parrots, hamsters, gerbils, and rats, among them. It seems I nearly always had days when I wanted to throw in the towel and give up. This guy was never going to get it, never going to love me or interact with me the way I had hoped. When it happened, I would decide to stick it out a few weeks more, and it always did get better. I hope it does for you and your family. You and your rats all deserve better than this.

If there is a breeder or rescue near you, maybe they could help you with this. If not, the resources here should get you started in the right direction. I wish you all the best in this endeavor.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd likely start by fixing the biting problem and get the rats properly socialized first, then get them trained to come when called so they can be better managed. The play pen may or may not be useful after that.

Check out my immersion guide under the behavior section for some pointers on how to fix your situation.

Best luck.


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## Sox & Smokey (Mar 26, 2016)

Thank you all for your insight - it really does help.  They are a little bit trained, they know when they see a carrier I have that i want them to go in it so I can return them to their cage and they usually will walk into it voluntarily.  They know when they see me around dinner time that I'm going to let them out and feed them and they get excited.   They are NOT neutered, and I'm considering if I want to neuter them or try to rehome them and get new rats from a reputable breeder.  I began letting them out of their cage again, and I basically just am there to babysit them, they may run across my feet and approach me from time to time but 80% of the time they just run around and explore, and I try to keep them away from anything they shouldn't be in. If they climb onto my lap i get up, I haven't shaken my nervousness around them.  They have also gotten really big.  They can jump up on top of counters and they manage to get up bookshelves and they knock stuff over.  I was pretty surprised how large the aggressive one is.  Not babies anymore! I'm actually starting to wonder if they are really "dumbo" rats like I requested from the store.  One is a true classic brown color and the other is black.)  When I do an internet search they look more like regular rats  If we do rehome, how would I find a "reputable" rat breeder?  I'm in a suburb of NY (NY/NJ border).  <br><br>


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Sox & Smokey said:


> Thank you all for your insight - it really does help. *They are a little bit trained, they know when they see a carrier I have that i want them to go in it so I can return them to their cage and they usually will walk into it voluntarily. *They know when they see me around dinner time that I'm going to let them out and feed them and they get excited. * They are NOT neutered, and I'm considering if I want to neuter them or try to rehome them and get new rats from a reputable breeder. *I began letting them out of their cage again, and I basically just am there to babysit them, they may run across my feet and approach me from time to time but 80% of the time they just run around and explore, and I try to keep them away from anything they shouldn't be in. If they climb onto my lap i get up, I haven't shaken my nervousness around them. *They have also gotten really big. *They can jump up on top of counters and they manage to get up bookshelves and they knock stuff over. *I was pretty surprised how large the aggressive one is. *Not babies anymore! I'm actually starting to wonder if they are really "dumbo" rats like I requested from the store. *One is a true classic brown color and the other is black.) *When I do an internet search they look more like regular rats *If we do rehome, how would I find a "reputable" rat breeder? *I'm in a suburb of NY (NY/NJ border). *


Dumbo or "regular ear" rats have absolutly no personality differences. It could have happened with any other rats. To find a reputable breeder just Google where you live+ rat breeders. Look in Facebook pages if there are any breeders close to you. You could also post in "adoption" to say that you are looking for rats. It seems that your rats are making progress, so I don't get why you want to give up on them.


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