# Nightmare rat - close to giving up.



## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

I hate giving up, and would never rehome an animal simply because it wasn't the perfect pet, but I am finding my ongoing battle with one of my rats exhausting and draining. My rats get around 6 hours of roaming time a day, their cage is big, with three platforms and a hammock that spans a large proportion of the cage hanging corner to corner form the top, creating another level. They have fruit sticks, hide boxes, a pillow case full of nesting materials which they burrow and dig around in, ropes, ladders, treat huts and tubes, they are fed well with added fruit and veg goodness, enjoy treats, boggle regularly; in short - they have a nice life. They were rescues and trust training was one heck of an endurance test but I am positive that they are no longer scared of me - they will lounge hanging out of a box and watch me go about my business, they come out of their hides if they hear a rustling of a bag (thinking it's banana chip time), they push their noses through the cage bars and they hardly ever scoot off for cover if they hear an unexpected noise - sudden changes in light can cause them to freeze, but this is followed by twitchy noses and hind leg stretches in to the air to investigate. So, basically, they know I'm not going to eat them. They're petted every single day, T will boggle during scritches sometimes, M will just look disgruntled. They have never bitten me out of the blue when I go to pet them and T is the least human aggressive of the two. But he is the most rat assertive. I trust T far more than M, but T has lunged at a wiggling finger - haven't played that game since. However, today, as I was fixing something in the cage on the second platform, M snuck underneath on the base below, reached his head up stealthily between the bars of the platform and bit me as I straightened out some bedding. This really upset me, not least because it effing hurt but also because he was like a nasty ninja sussing out how to attack me without being seen. I got rats because my research had led me to believe that they were patient, loving and companiable; living in an apartment and being an animal lover who really gets a lot out of pets, these characteristics appealed to me. I'm not sure if I just expected too much, have been really unlucky, or have totally misinterpreted all of the literature that says 'Rats never bite, they're social animals who are more like dogs than other small rodents'. M is just horrible, he scoots everywhere, snakes and vibrates his tail, lunges and bites, head twists with an open mouth, chatters with annoyance at everything, mounts T for 8-10 seconds (I timed it for the vet) and then cleans his penis; he will initiate aggressive grooming or a wrestle but instead of it being playful it ends up with a power struggle in which M ultimately loses with T nibbling at his neck. He will then scoot around for a bit before sitting in a corner hunched up. Then it all starts again about 10 minutes later. He allows T to take food from him so his alpha/subordinate behaviour is really conflicting. Maybe he's just bad! He will take treats from me when I offer him a yogie or banana chip, he will come to the side of the cage and stare if I dare to walk past - so I know trust training worked in that he isn't fearful of me. Although, he is terified if there is a sudden loud noise, unusual smell or if a light gets switched on or off. So, my question is: am I being naive, is this the reality of a pet rat? Is there actually anything else I can do to try and solve the problem? Was due to take on a couple of babies from a great breeder at the end of the year but have been put off - perhaps I am just not good with rats?!


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

He may need a neauter. It sounds like he's becoming hormonal aggressive. Is he hunching,puffing his fur and sidles?


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## Jan Jinkle (Sep 17, 2012)

Just like humans, you just get that one-in-a-million psycho, untrainable rat. Though I would hesitate to use that, I would say instead it's deep-seated distrust. Do you know their history before you rescued them?


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## jd882 (Sep 16, 2012)

I think I read everything and saw every youtube video you did that said rats don't bite. I ended up with a biter. He's bitten me (drew blood) and bit my son (didn't draw blood). I think the fact that you give them everything they could ever dream of is a great thing. Reality is, what I'm learning, is rats are just like people. Everyone has a different personality, some are friendly and some are grumpy old men. Still working on the trust training with both my boys and the differences between them are amazing! My boys are both older really not socialized adopted (b)rats, with just a nice cozy home to live out their lives. Zeek the friendly one likes to be pet and held where as Cecil the biter would rather just watch curiously from a distance although he's never shy enough for a treat. Because of Cecil's biting and aggression, it's also training me on how to care for an animal that would rather have his space than to cuddle up on my shoulder. 

Don't give up. You're doing a great job!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sounds like neuter time...especially if he was a sweet baby then hit a certain age and became a very rude, boy that you almost don't recognize. Hormones can make a rat act utterly unlike themselves and a neuter, time for those hormones to die down, usually leaves you with a sweet rat once again. He sounds also fear aggressive which combined with the hormonal rages makes him a very unpleasant boy to be around. I would definitely neuter him.

how long have you had these boys? How old are they? I will guess between 5-9 months old?


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah, its sounding like hormonal aggression. At this point Im going to encourage neutering. . Poor little guy sounds out of his mind with hormones. I don't think you misinterpreted any information. Rats are all of the wonderful things you typed and more. T is showing that in spades. Unfortunately, M got stuck with too much testosterone and he sounds every bit as uncomfortable and freaked out as you are. PM me if you want to vent. I know this must be so frustrating and I'm sorry you guys are going through this.


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

The only reason I know this is because I had Midnight and Peanut neaurted. I literally got bit on the inside of my hand from him and he caused some nerve damage in it. It was right after I had petted peanut and then went and petted midnight forgetting to wash my hands.he is now loving again and beautiful like he was before . It really changes them and also not a lot of buck grease and so on . They both live happily with their girlfriends


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks guys. Jessica - thanks for the kind words, I remember your post from a week or so back when you were having problems with your biter. I think you're right, we may just have rats that like to be left alone!  x

RatzRUs, Jan, LilSpaz - Yep, I think you're right, too. They're booked in for a neuter on Tuesday. I feel horrible for intefering with nature, though. I want them to be happy rats. I've booked them both in because they're both as bas as each other with the rat focused aggression and Toby, although patient, isn't without his lash outs. I couldn't have confidently and safely determined the most appropriate alpha for myself, so thought it best to have them both snipped!

Gal5150 - Thanks, I really appreciate that. You were so much help with forced socialisation and in a weird way I think it made Markus confident enough to start throwing his weight around haha. I will no doubt need some direction post neuter so will DM you. 

Really hope the neuter works out.


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

P.S. All I know of their background is that they were bought from a breeder by one pet shop and then bought by a second pet shop before being rescued. So they'd been moved around a lot. As I detailed in my first post on the forum they were appallingly kept and handled by their tales. I have a suspicion they were bought very cheaply from a feeder breeder and then sold on twice as live stock. She couldn't tell me how old they were when I got them and I have had them for 5 weeks. I'd say they were about 16 weeks when I got them, at about 20 weeks now. The vet said they were very small for male rats when she saw them. The pet shop lady was feeding them hamster food and a tiny amount, out of a ramikin. So, I think poor genetics, malnourishment, bad handling, appalling living conditions, and hormones has resulted in two adorable little monsters. Poor things.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm pretty sure I'm missing the part about out of cage alpha training, where you established your dominence in the pack order and got your rats handleable and socialized in the first place.

If your rats were manageable and snuggly and then they went hormonal the neuter is likely to fix your problems. If you never got them socialized, your likely to wind up with antisocial neutered rats that bite.

Tough love or surgery? Each will only fix the appropriate problem. I can't call it from here. As to trust training... I only recommend that for mistreated withdrawn rats. You don't need to establish pack order with them because they have already given up. For just about every other unsocialized rat you start with, you just need to become their alpha and the trust end will take care of itself. Rats instinctively trust their leader.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I would still do the surgery. A scared male rat that is also dealing with hormones is going through ****, he doesn't have a chance at relaxing and becoming a nice boy.


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## jd882 (Sep 16, 2012)

Don't lose the faith! If you have the means to get him neutered and you think it could benefit him, do it! I see a lot of positive posts that neutering does the trick to return them to their normal happy selves! Then again, if your not that familiar with their history, why chop it off if their behavior could be due to simple unsocialization as a youngin? Tackle one issue at a time and they might resolve themselves... If not, then you know what you have to do... (Just don't tell the boys! LOL)


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

Rat Daddy - they are socialised by my understanding of socialisation. They will be petted, they don't run away from me, they will be handled by myself and other people without biting - up until now. Markus' behaviour doesn't correspond with anything symptomatic of fear - my girls never behaved this way. He knows I am the source of his food, he obviously knows that an outright bite won't go down well, so he sneaks around. I'm not going to allow him to savage my hand so that I can put him in time out and show him who's boss. They will, thanks to Gal5150's advice, fall asleep on me etc. If this were just behaviour that M was demonstrating toward me I would be inclined to take your point on board, but they are pushing their luck with one another. On a few occassions I've woken in the middle of the night to screaming and either rat in a corner with their rumps and tails in the air - I am by no means an expert, but I'll get them neutered and see what difference it makes. I have by no means opted out of socialisation - I thought I'd illustrated that in my post. Markus is a very highly strung rat, I can tell that by his subtle body language; the way he rotates his ears to follow a sound that is in the next room, the way he skulks in shadows to make sure that Toby is his cagemate and not an intruder, the way he'll saunter up to my plate do a snatch and grab at whatever's on there and when he hears 'Markus, no!' he squeeks as though his tail just got caught in a door and moves at the speed of light to the nearest hide spot. Toby has had the exact same treatment and socialisation as M, actually M has had more because he's been such a conundrum. I totally understand that socialisation is the primary step in shaping happy rats, but if the rat's bonding abilities are limited due to hormonal issues then there is only so much I can do. The other thing is that I don't spend only a couple of hours a day with them - I'm studying my phd which is a **** of a lot of research/writing so they're in my study with me free ranging and interacting for 6 hours a day, and I find any excuse to be distracted by them. So, for the 5 weeks that I've had them I have been a constant presence in their consciousness, with ample handling, trust training and forced socialisation. I really don't see that there is any fear to be eradicated or trust issues remaining. Is H.e.l.l a censored word on here? It starred it out...


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Down right nasty rats are actually pretty uncommon. Not that they don't happen, double negative aside, they very much do. And yes, sometimes it is hormonal, but sometimes its even caused by health issues, brain tumors, vision problems or more commonly by mistreatment or neglect before you ever get your rat. Most of the time socialization that establishes you as the alpha works. As to agression towards roommates, I have one rat that has had three different roommates, one with which she never resolved her conflicts, one that took six weeks to introduce and the last she got along with right from the start, we actually did the introductions in the pet shop parking lot in the middle of the night. Same rat three entirely different outcomes. Some rats will never get along, even if both are completely human friendly.

A hormonal issue is one that generally makes a good rat go bad at a certain age. So I suppose I was looking for something like "My friendly, squishy lap rat started attacking me two weeks ago." I mistakenly got the feeling that your guys had problems right from the start. That's not to say you couldn't adopt a rat that already had raging hormones, it just makes it harder to prove. A friend's friendly rat went bad, killed it's roomate and attacked it's owner, then it died two weeks later of a brain tumor. We didn't see that one coming.

By the reasonable process of elimination you have tried socializing your rats and will find out if neutering helps. It looks like you put in the time, paid your dues, thought it through, and I really hope it works.

Best luck to you and your ratties.


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