# Tense rats, confusing behaviour



## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

So a few days ago I was happy in the knowledge that I had a happy, healthy mischief of three male rats. But the last three days things got... weird. Manuel seems very tense and reluctant to play. He has no obvious signs of illness and once he is playing hes fine and he is still quite content to ride around on my shoulder for hours at a time and will brux when I take him around the house. He just doesnt seem to want to come out of the cage at first and only really seems comfortable outside the cage if hes on his own. as soon as Basil and Imp come out too he runs away, ignores me for the most part and will occasionally stop completely and tense up. It seems very inconsistent though because sometimes he is his usual self, a big old softie who likes a cuddle. 
Also, as I was writing this he bit my dads foot... no broken skin or anything and my dad says it didnt hurt but it didnt feel like the usual groom nibble. It didnt happen to me and was too fast to see so I dont really know, he might welll have been chewing some hard skin.
I dont really know what to think of it, I can just tell that something isnt right and if it continues or gets worse I'll consider taking him to a vet but to be honest it's reminding me of a frustrated male seeking a mate, but I dont know much about how that works in rats.
Nothing has been much different lately, Imp is a fairly new addition to the mischief, introduced about three weeks ago now and is 13 weeks old. 
there was an incident last week where two cats got into my bedroom and hid under the bed while I was downstairs with the rats, when I came up and went to bed, putting the rats in to the cage for the night, after an hour (yes, an hour without hearing a peep from the cats) I heard a coughing hiss and the rats suddenly went mad, running around the cage screaming. I turned on the lights in a panic and there they were, sitting beside the cage and staring intently at my boys. Well I promptly grabbed said cats, marched them downstairs to the confusion of my parents and shoved them out the door then went to comfort the rats who were very shaken but seemed to recover quickly.
I dont know what else it could be, is he just worked about about that? Or is he just, well, a little frustrated at not having a female around? He and basil are ten months old now I think... nine or ten. He doesnt seem agressive, just grumpy. Is he confused about his role in the "pack" because of hormones? Is he jealous of Imp? 
I cant imagine he's bored or anything because if anything they have all had more time out than usual lately, up to six hours a day because I havent had as much work to do.
I just havent got a clue what l got into him or how to help. like I said, he doesnt seem ill either, just grumpy. And although the others still seem happy, they appear to get a little tense when outside the cage with Manuel but once back inside everyone is fine. Basil did get a little jumpy and he and Manuel got into a scuffle when Manuel didnt want to play, which did happen a few days ago too and I posted about it because Manuels reaction scared me. He ran over to me and squealed when I touched him. Maybe its this thats riled him? Im pretty sure after Rat daddy replied to that post, that he got a bruise in the scuffle which is why he didnt like me touching him but coukd it still be that? Oh, I dont know, it just got bugging me today because he really doesnt seem himself...
...what do you do with a grumpy rat?


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Sounds like hormones if you ask me. These can cause an abrupt change in a male rats behaviour. What you really need to be doing is re-immersing him so he understands that despite his hormonal changes, YOU are the boss. He's basically challenging your authority now his hormones have kicked in, and he needs putting back into his place. If Immersion doesn't completely cure it then I suppose getting him neutered is an option that people favour and it tends to work very well.

Otherwise, he could be injured somehow and may need a vet examination.


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

I doubt he's worked up about the cats. My rats were barely phased by my cats and dog. I think rat claws is right with the hormonal thing.


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

Ok, I was starting to lean more towards that than anything and seeing as I'm moving soon I was going to do a round of immersion when I did but I agree it is probably a good idea to do it again now rather than wait if it is hormonal. I had done something similar to immersion when I first got the two older boys but I didnt actually know that was what I was doing. everything was ok till now and I could break up a fight just by saying no and waving at basil (he's deaf for those that dont know, so saying no wasnt enough if he was the aggressor) And Imp had a good day of immersion that went really well. I am new to this though, so I'm well aware I may slip up somewhere and I guess Manuel is telling me that. On saturday Ill start Immersion with him again and see what happens. If he still seems out of sorts (though I imagine there will be some change to his behaviour anyway) ill get them all to a vet for a check up. Neutering isnt something I particularly want to do if it can be avoided and I should imagine if I get this right it wont really be necessary.
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep you posted on what happens.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Is it making too much light of the situation if my first reaction was that Manuel is grumpy because you put Basil in the ratatouille?

(Love your names and wish I had advice; I hope that addressing the hormonal problems brings happiness back to your "Fawlty" mischief.)


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

karip said:


> Is it making too much light of the situation if my first reaction was that Manuel is grumpy because you put Basil in the ratatouille?
> 
> (Love your names and wish I had advice; I hope that addressing the hormonal problems brings happiness back to your "Fawlty" mischief.)
> 
> ...


Omg, this post XD Thanks, I was starting feel a bit lousy with it all this morning because had to break up another scuffle. It didnt last long and Manuel stopped when I shouted no but I dont like seeing him so frustrated and keep thinking its my fault. I need to snap out of that and just get on re asserting my status which I will have the time and means to do properly and thoroughly tomorrow while the family is out and Im not working. It's just that I worked hard with it the time round and it's a little discouraging. On the plus side Imp is coming to his name and will give kisses on command and Basil will "check in" by touching his nose to my finger if I hold it out for him to come which is a massive move forward with him


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Moonferret,

What I like about this thread is that you are observing and listening to your rats. So, it's ok that you are not entirely sure what they want from you, but at least you are getting the messages and recognizing that things are changing. Good job.

I don't know of any documented spring mating behavior in rats as rats can breed year round, but hey in humans springtime often turns a young person's interests towards courting so why not the same with rats? I have to suspect that way back when there was a reason for so many June weddings.

To be entirely honest rats do have mood swings as do humans and sometimes they act a little bit oddly at times, and Manuel is telling you something. For a while when I had Amelia out Fuzzy Rat didn't want to come out of the cage. Maybe her feelings were hurt, but she got over it.

Sometimes what looks like progress goes sideways. We finally got Amelia more comfortable outdoors at the safe sit under the pine trees so I took her down to the field on my road and put her down and after about an hour she did a 20 yard mad dash to a pine tree. Where formerly she wouldn't leave my jacket, now she runs to pine trees. So for now that's a step backwards. Had I known there was a giant animal hole under he pine tree, I might not have been as casual about collecting Fuzzy Rat and going after her. On the other hand, her new found ability to leave my side and cross wide open territory might be a good thing. What I know for sure is that her behavior is changing and I have to manage the changes. 

So lets recap what I learned...

First despite her black eyes that flash red Amelia can identify a pine tree from 20 yards away. 

Second her stress level is cumulative, it tends to build up outdoors over time. She obeyed her come command for nearly an hour before she finally became overwhelmed and broke training and ran for the tree.

Third, if she runs off, she only runs to the nearest pine tree and waits there for me and after a few minutes of lowered stress she came back out to me on command... not all bad, but way not good for a shoulder rat. Depending on traffic etc, that kind of a panic behavior could get her killed.

Overall, I've been training rats outdoors for a long time, I was 20 yards from that pine tree for a reason... that's exactly where I wanted her to run if she panicked, so I'm not too bothered by it, a little disappointed, but still things are changing. And things need to change. 

And this brings me to the point, rats are learning animals, they change over time. Amelia went from a 7 month old neglected rat that sat on my desk for three weeks without moving to a very able, crafty, clever and self assured sneak thief indoors. She went through a two week phase of disappearing and not turning up until dinner the next day. Now she comes on command indoors unless she's busy stealing something. She did a week of eating wires, but when I told her to stop she did, so except for dolls faces, she's pretty much non destructive now. She's gone from always staying under my coat to dashing for pine trees outdoors, not an improvement, but at least a change. And I now know her outdoor vision is better than 20 yards. Something I didn't know before.

But since we got her as a completely screwed up neglected animal that didn't know her name and had never been outside her cage, she's been evolving and I've had to adapt. The first thing she did when she moved from her spot was to step on my keyboard, I yelled at her and since that one time she has never stepped on my keyboard again, she still makes every effort to jump over the keys. She's actually a brilliant animal and learns fast. 

So Manuel is changing his behavior, that's both ok and normal. Maybe he's looking for more human contact, or maybe he's thinking about a girlfriend, maybe he needs a new challenge to keep him occupied and he's bored. Do you have a safe site you can take him to where he can burn off a little energy? My Fuzzy Rat would get all stressed out and I'd take her to the soccer field at bedtime and let her run the chain link fence tops for half an hour to calm down, but she was a shoulder rat so I didn't have to worry about anything but owls. I remember one night around 1:00 AM she became so disquieted I spent an hour in the rain watching her run the 100 yard fence back and forth like a nut until she was ready to go back inside. And on the way home she still had to run each one of my neighbors fences to get it out of her system. She folded into my lap after that and fell quietly asleep. At 15 months old Amelia still does laps around the house to burn off excess girl energy. She's not running but her feet never stop moving.

Rats grow and change, that's normal and not to panic over and yes you always need to maintain your alpha standing and manage the changes. Sometimes things seem to go wrong or even backwards and sometimes rats are hard to understand, just like kids going through puberty. Like any good parent... make a hypothesis and test it, see how he reacts to your various responses to his behavior... If he's moody try giving him a treat... no? Then try skritches... still nothing? Try chasing him around a little... not right? Try leaving him alone for a little while... Play with the other rats, see how he responds.... If he is properly bonded to you and you have a safe site take him there and give him a challenge if you feel he can handle it... Try different approaches and observe and experiment. Naturally, always protect your alpha status aggressively so he doesn't start to build up alpha hormones. But with work you will get through this. Just like raising a child, sooner or later you have to let them out of the stroller and give them the keys to your car. There are lots of changes between the stroller and the car and you can't stop them, but if you manage them correctly it's all for the best. You can't keep a child or rat from growing up, but you can guide them through the changes with love, discipline and reassurance and likely at the cost of a few sleepless nights.

Best luck


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

Phew, well today was interesting. Last night Manuel seemed a little better but he wanted some space so I let him have a snooze behind my chair and after that he clambered onto my shoulder and faced the door to the next room which I have found is his way of saying "I want to go over there" by rewarding me with a brux or lick. So after about half an hour of being steered around the house he keeps taking me back to the backdoor. Now, I dont have a safe site and I dont feel comfortable taking the rats outside yet, nor do I know if I will ever feel able to do so, partly because I dont yet fully understand my or my rats limits and dont want to over reach myself and partly because there are so many birds of prey around here, even roosting in my garden, that I cant see it being a safe option. But he seems intent on exploring somewhere new so I decided to start our session of re-immersion in our shower room which he has never been in.
The boggling started almost immediately. For a good half hour he wouldnt stop bruxing and boggling but wouldnt come down off my shoulder either. He just sat with me and boggled non stop. So I kept talking to him and fussing him until he was comfortable to climb down and he stopped boggling for long enough to jump around exploring, then came back and did it again. So I carried on and he seemed to build in confidence and if anything was the happiest he's ever been! after about three hours of alternating between exploring and coming for a scritch he trotted over to where I was sitting, draped himself over my arm and slept for nearly an hour. After that he gave both himself and my hand a good groom, climbed back onto my shoulder gave me a kiss and steered me once around the room and back to the door. 
It sounded like he was pretty happy to have had my undivided attention and a new place to explore and still had tons of energy so I started teaching him "spin". The boy didnt stop! I have to say I'm exhausted! But it was certainly worth doing because this evening he's been happy and well behaved and the other boys have relaxed considerably with him now.
I dont want to count my chickens so ill be keeping an eye on things but hes improved already. Thanks every one for your help  
Im going to have to think of some more new things for him to get into, once I move he'll have a whole new house to explore but until then ill need something else for him to do.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Most people feel comfortable in their own back yards, so they never realize that it's most likely the most dangerous place to take their rats, you are wise not to go there... But you most likely do have the appropriate park or cemetery or large space nearby if you look for it. As to birds of prey, most won't mess with you up close and personal, but they are very worth watching out for at a distance. Owls are the worst of the bunch because they are silent and invisible. 

But otherwise it sounds like you and Manuel are on the same page now, you are communicating and spending time together and things are getting better... I'll never forget when I realized that Fuzzy Rat was actually telling me which way to walk, it was part of my getting it... when I realized that the little rat was actually talking to me and expecting me to understand her.. And licking me when I did... Wow, it was an eyeopener. Manuel sounds like he has the makings of an exceptional rat, but a rat like Fuzzy Rat and Manuel need lots of human interaction challenges and stimulation or they get very unhappy very fast. They know you can understand them, so why are you ignoring them? It's like your best friend not returning your calls.

Still, I wouldn't trade a rat like Manuel or Fuzzy Rat for anything. They are worth every minute of the extra work they put us through. I hope you find a safe site, if Manuel really is one of those super rare shoulder rats... once he gets a chance, and you learn how to handle him, he'll blow your mind and that of anybody that meets him. If not, you will still likely have lots of fun at the safe site.

Best luck.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Moonferret said:


> Omg, this post XD Thanks, I was starting feel a bit lousy with it all this morning because had to break up another scuffle. It didnt last long and Manuel stopped when I shouted no but I dont like seeing him so frustrated and keep thinking its my fault. I need to snap out of that and just get on re asserting my status which I will have the time and means to do properly and thoroughly tomorrow while the family is out and Im not working. It's just that I worked hard with it the time round and it's a little discouraging. On the plus side Imp is coming to his name and will give kisses on command and Basil will "check in" by touching his nose to my finger if I hold it out for him to come which is a massive move forward with him


*grin* I couldn't help it; that episode NEVER gets old for me. I'm glad it got a laugh from you.

I'm also VERY glad to hear that Manuel responded well to the immersion training. Fingers crossed that it will only get better from here.


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

That episode is THE reason for their names  Imp is the odd one out because of my dads unhealthy game of thrones obsession and the fact that "Major" just didnt suit him 
Manuel is doing great today and seeing as you have suggested it Rat Daddy, I will have a look around for a safe site. I dont know if Ill feel comfortable using it just yet but I guess it cant hurt to have a place in mind that I know will be safe for him. Its mostly mountain round here mind. There is a park but its far too open for a rat to feel safe... hmm, Ill get scouting around.
He is absolutely amazing, my other two boys are special and very dear to me but theres just something about Manuel and the way he talks to me that sets him apart. I dont know what I would do without him.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's the wide open space the keeps your rats tucked in to you and the specific cover you have chosen, like under a small ornamental pine tree that defines your play space at first. And if and when your rat gets over it's open space phobia you get a hundred yards of short grass to recover your rat in. Rats can easily outrun or out maneuver you over 30 feet, but 100 yards is another matter. Most healthy humans can outrun a rat over that distance.... so open space works like an invisable wall at first and safety net otherwise. The limited cover you work under or next to gives your rat a safe place to panic and run to where he is easy to recover.

Because the safe site is by definition safe and of your careful choosing, you shouldn't be taking any great risks with a rat that's bonded with you and part of your pack. Now, leaving the safe site that's quite another matter. The first time you cross a busy street, or walk along a tall chainlink fence with dogs on the other side, that's when you have got to know you have a shoulder rat and how he is going to react and what his stress signals are... The safe site is like a super giant living room... The real world beyond, places like your back yard, the pet shop, a parking lot, etc, places where you feel safe are where the real dangers lie. If you choose your safe site wisely, you should be able to take almost any rat there. But few rats should ever go any farther. At the safe site you will either know Manual can be trusted outdoors or that he should not be taken to the real outdoors...

I'm not suggesting that Manuel be trained as a shoulder rat, that is always dangerous... just that you and he might have a great time at a safe site and it would give him a real challenge for his intellect. Even my agoraphobic rat, is beginning to enjoy climbing the small pine trees and dashing about under them and I'm beginning to predict her behavior outdoors. As a very experienced rat handler with lots of experience and a strong relationship with that particular rat, I can take her beyond the safe site but only to a very limited degree, someone else would lose her fast.


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

Dont worry, I understand that attempting to train him as a shoulder rat would be very dangerous and Im no where near experienced enough to even consider that but I agree it would be good for him to get a challenge somewhere safe. I will consider it and it's going to take a while to find an appropriate place so I'll do that and when I have somewhere I know is safe I will start thinking about taking him but only after having a good long think. I trust him and Im starting to understand him better now but like I said, I dont want to over reach. I wouldnt want to make a stupid mistake and lose him or worse. For now he seems content to have a longer session without the other two and a little time to run up and down the hall but i imagine **** need a new challenge soon enough, so I better get creative.

Thanks for everything!


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