# How soon can you handle the babies?



## Gigi (Nov 19, 2006)

My dwarf had babies today and I was wondering how soon is safe to handle the babies?


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm going to starting handling the babies my female is due for (like in the next 24 hours) the very first day she has them. Of course I'm gonna give her and the babies some privacy at first, but after things have settled down, I'm gonna remove momma, and then check each baby for a milk band to make sure they're eating properly. Ya know?
Go to my thread about Lola, my female.


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## Gigi (Nov 19, 2006)

Okay, I thought she might eat them if I handled them too soon. Thanks.


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## cami (Mar 15, 2009)

when my rat had babies i started holding them about 5 days after. i hope that helps.


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## whaturmuva (Apr 14, 2009)

Rats, unlike hamsters, will not harm their babies after you play with them. You should give the mother about a day after birth to be alone, but after that you can hold them. The mother should have no problem with it as long as she is tame.


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## Maple (Jun 9, 2008)

I started handling mine about 6 days after...


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## Crazy_Rat_Lady (Jun 4, 2009)

I started on day 2, but well before they were 24 hours old. No issues at all.


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## tansy (Jun 2, 2009)

I pulled mine out one at a time starting on day one. But just long enough to get pictures and stuff and to check for milk bands.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

I started handling Olive's bubs on day 2- she didn't seem to mind.

I know everyone likes to check for milkbands and whatnot, but I don't think it's worth disturbing them to do so. Even if they are not eating or being fed correctly, with being SO young there isnt anything you can really do anyways.

I took the bubs out on day 2 to try my hand at sexing them since they were unexpected and I wanted to start searching for homes asap.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

A few hours after birth, but only because Momma was a very sweet and relaxed girl, if she was a nervous little thing I would've left it. I pulled out the bloody bedding, made sure I didn't have any stillborns, checked for milk bellies and then put them back in again for the day. They were out, for about 2 minutes tops. After that I handled them very gently every day, so they could get used to my scent and touch. I find my rescue babies become better adult rats with more gentle handling earlier on. Later on I do one-on-one "work" with them, and very gently pull their ears and paws and tails, and put them on their back, even look at their teeth when big enough, stuff that an owner may need to do to examine them at home, or a vet may need to do at the clinic. They are not stressed and are more confident and happy rats when they grow up. My babies won't end up in shelters or dumped outside for not being handleable. ;D


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

4 days after. There is no need for sooner..... at that age, there is nothing you can do if a baby does not have a milkband. People just want to take *cute pics* of the cute little babies. I mean, really. Even if the mum does not harm them, she may be stressed and the odd smell on them is obviously noticeable to a rat. So I do not see why you need to prod around if you see mum coming out and eating, drinking, etc.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Siamese said:


> 4 days after. There is no need for sooner..... at that age, there is nothing you can do if a baby does not have a milkband. People just want to take *cute pics* of the cute little babies. I mean, really. Even if the mum does not harm them, she may be stressed and the odd smell on them is obviously noticeable to a rat. So I do not see why you need to prod around if you see mum coming out and eating, drinking, etc.


Where do you get '4 days' from? Is it actual fact or opinion?

If you are bonded with the rat, we are not an odd smell. Handling babies should be taken on an individual basis depending on he mother's personality and toleration of you handling the babies. As per the OPs question, it is *safe* to handle the rats on the day they are born (providing mum is ok with it).


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## Gabrielle B (Jan 16, 2009)

Yea 4 days is kinda a random day to pick? I have never heard this. I am friends with a few breeders, all of which handle their babies from day 1. There are a few reasons for checking them early, one of them is checking for milk bands, if they don't appear to have milk bands, and are looking listless and malnourished, a surrogate may be needed, also, some people do daily weigh-ins to monitor growth


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Siamese said:


> 4 days after. There is no need for sooner..... at that age, there is nothing you can do if a baby does not have a milkband. People just want to take *cute pics* of the cute little babies. I mean, really. Even if the mum does not harm them, she may be stressed and the odd smell on them is obviously noticeable to a rat. So I do not see why you need to prod around if you see mum coming out and eating, drinking, etc.


Are you from the UK, Siamese?


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

Huh? Sorry, why does my location matter exactly? ???

I didn't mean 4 days was fact. I don't see the need to check them earlier. You can lift the nest or look in and see if they have milkbands without lifting them and taking pics.


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## teresaisaacs (Jul 31, 2009)

sorry to poke my nose in but surely checking on bubs from day one would be a good thing? i wouldn't want a stillborn in the nest for 4 days because of the bacteria and smells etc. 

one question? what does living in uk have to do with someones comment  im in the uk!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

teresaisaacs said:


> sorry to poke my nose in but surely checking on bubs from day one would be a good thing? i wouldn't want a stillborn in the nest for 4 days because of the bacteria and smells etc.
> 
> one question? what does living in uk have to do with someones comment  im in the uk!


A lot of members of UK forums have different opinions then we do on the more US-based forums, plus they rarely show up on these forums as well, sticking to their own UK-based forums. For eg. we do neuters and spays as a routine thing, whereas it's just _not_ done there unless there's a medical emergency etc, and its considered selfish to neuter a boy to live with girls, etc. They have their own way of doing things, and I figured with Siamese's opinions differing from almost all of ours, that she might be from a different forum in the UK. I have some very good friends in the UK so there's no denigration involved here, its just a different opinion, and we can all agree or disagree...I will always check and handle my bubs as soon as possible, with many breeders backing me up. Siamese can hold her litters at 4 days...no skin off my back. What I don't like is being told I am "wrong" in doing things my way, like I would ever deliberately traumatize or hurt my rats. :


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

I still do not think my country effects exactly my opinion. If I was in America, I'd have the exact opinion I do right now. :-X


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

Spaz why do you handle them so early? on another thread you said if no milkband, wait and see. :


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Knowing early on if there may be problems with lactation gives you a chance to solve problems - I have heard of surrogates being found within a day of birth when the mother hasn't been able to feed the babies and most of the babies survived. If they had been left until day 4 ... none would have survived.

I don't understand why you think it is so wrong - rats are not like most small rodents. Generally, breeders are well bonded to the rats so handling causes no stress. Gentle handling in short bursts will not stress the babies. So what's the problem?

I'm going with the majority (and more experienced) on this one - you obviously value different ethics on this one, from what I can see, you are basing your opinion on absolutely no factual evidence whatsoever.

As for the countries debate - I agree entirely with Lilspaz. Speaking as someone from the UK and knowing a lot US and Canadian rat owners we do things VERY different over here. When you compare UK forums to US forums, the US forums are much more relaxed about certain issues (for example the tooth trimming debate) where UKers are very stoic and stuck in their ways. It works both ways. Cultural differences are unavoidable


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Siamese said:


> Spaz why do you handle them so early? on another thread you said if no milkband, wait and see. :


If I know there's no milk band then I check them again later...if there's still no milkband after 16 hours and the pup is looking peaked I would be looking for nursing surrogate mom and syringe feeding to keep the pup alive til she got here. If I ignored the litter for 4 days they would be dead if there was lactation issues. 

Sometimes you don't see the milkband right away which is why i advise waiting, but keeping an eye out...I have seen overzealous folks take them from their mom and try to handrear them, when they shouldn't have been...the pups have died.

There is NO cruelty involved...the pups cannot hear, or smell very well, so there's no horrible disturbing human scents...there's never pain or discomfort...

WHY are you so adamant? YOU can have your opinion, and the rest of the world can have another, just stop trying to shove it down our throats. It is very abrasive.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

No need to start shouting. I didn't try shove it down your throats at any point either. :



> from what I can see, you are basing your opinion on absolutely no factual evidence whatsoever.


And neither are either of you.

At least when our girls have given birth they have had a safe secure place to do so in a quiet dark room and peace and quiet.... instead of the middle of a cage with no warmth of security.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

> And neither are either of you.


Only the experience of a multitude of breeders (and experts) who have seen absolutely NO negative reasons that would show they should not be handled so young :

I note the use of 'girls' - you have had experience 'breeding'?


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

> Only the experience of a multitude of breeders


I don't think that these breeders are anything to go by. They are also just breeding mroe and more rats into the world. And what makes them so expert? Why would I listen to them?



> (and experts)


What experts exactly? Do you mean these breeders?

I don't breed my rats, I never have, and never plan to. But have rescued females that have turned out to be pregnant. Not that it really matters to you, because that's not even what the thread is all about.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I know, and know people who know, many good ethical breeders who I consider to have much more expertise in the area of baby handling. You should listen to them as they have much more experience than you do and generally, positive experience many times over means you're doing something right 

As for your opinion of "They are also just breeding mroe and more rats into the world", have you ever spoken or had contact with a GOOD breeder? They only breed according to the demand in their area and more importantly breed to produce genetically healthy rats. They are an important part of the rat community and the future of pet rats!

I very much doubt continuing this 'debate' will make you consider your opinion - from the posts I have seen you make you are very set in your ways and not open to anyone elses ideas and experience. If you continue to think yourself right over others who know better (in the context of this thread - breeders and Lilspaz) then you are going to butt many heads with many people in here and other forums. It doesn't hurt to open your mind a little bit


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

> to have much more expertise in the area of baby handling.


Expertise in baby handling? That just sounds pretty silly. Just because I didn't breed more rats and rescued them, this means I'm not an expert at handling? I'm not saying that I'm an expert but what makes you worship these breeders so much? And you seem to know a 'lot' of breeders. Hm....

And also, you're very one sided.



> I very much doubt continuing this 'debate' will make you consider your opinion


Same to you....



> I have seen you make you are very set in your ways and not open to anyone elses ideas and experience.


Same to you...

It doesn't hurt to be patient and stop putting your desire to take cute baby pics behind giving female rats peace.


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## Gabrielle B (Jan 16, 2009)

Siamese, do you have a problem with people handling babies to take scientific measures, like I have been. I am tabulating data on mouse growth and development on different diets (Cubes, mix, fresh food) to find out what would be the best diet for nursing mothers (milk production/quality) It is very much a work in progress, but something I hope will help other breeders in the future. Surely _this_ is an instance where handling is necessary?


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Research has shown that early handling by humans encourages a rat mother to lick and groom her kittens and this action alters the brain chemistry of the kitten in a positive way, making the animal less reactive to stressful stimuli. Early handling also familiarises the kitten with the feel and smell of human hands, thus initiating the socialisation process. Rat kittens have been shown to show preferences (by smell) towards those things that offered positive touching/nurturing experiences in their first few days.
Kittens will benefit from human handling daily from birth…

http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/guides.php?subject=sockit

Baby rats grow incredibly fast. I recommend you hold and look at them every day to witness this miracle. This handling will also help stimulate and socialize the babies. Once their eyes open at 2 weeks of age you should play with the babies as much as possible. The more you handle them, the better socialized they will be. At this age they'll also start to eat solid food. They'll either walk to the dish, or their mom will carry food to the nest. You don't need to provide any special food for them.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/repro.html


A breeder of rats is usually the safest place to obtain a rat as most are concerned about their breeding animals being healthy. They also handle the babies from birth so the rat is very socialized when you get him.

http://www.rmca.org/Resources/rmcafaq.htm

Domestic rats are true domesticated animals and are born tame, but they still need to be socialized to bond to humans. Baby rats need to handled as much as possible beginning at birth and especially between 2 and 4 weeks of age to make sure they will be friendly and calm. It is a myth that handling the babies will cause the mother to kill them.

http://www.petrats.org/pro.html



Sadly I was unable to find any articles or reports that extolled the virtues of handling from day 4…


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

As for the breeders I follow, these are my friends (even if they are in the US and I am in Canada)...if I am not sure of something or have questions I check in with them...they kept me totally together during Lilith's pregancy and birth...she was just too young and tiny to have babies in my opinion...

http://www.dazzlemerats.com/

http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/index.html

http://www.odysseydesignrattery.com/

These people go above and beyond for their rats and I have known a lot of people who have claimed to be breeders...they were mass producing and not careful with their lines and even the socialization of the pups. I saw breeders who bred unhealthy but pretty animals together. I just recentlyu Outed one...I am not a fan of breeding in the least, but when someone does it right, they have all my respect. They are trying to improve the rats health and temperament overall, whereas rescues and rescue owners take in the deitrus from the other "breeders". 

I have asked rescue owners about socializing the bubs at early ages and they say its best to start right away UNLESS mom is a nervous girl, its best to let her settle then. Check the pups health and the health of the mom after the birth or the day after, then leave the nervous mom to bond with her bubs.

How many forums are you a part of Siamese? 

I am a part of 11...only a few I consider any good though. You see the Big Picture if you are on a lot of diverse forums.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

lilspaz... can you PM me the names of some other active forums? (I'm only on here and GM and would like to join others but only if they are actually active!) From your post I figured you would know the good ones!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sent


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## tansy (Jun 2, 2009)

Lilspaz, I too would like links to any active forums you have. I'm only on here, Bruxn Boggle, and another inactive forum. I'd love to have more.


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## juliebug (Aug 13, 2009)

siamese...ration and lil spaz may be set in their opinions on _this _ subject...but in all of the posts ive seen from you, you have never been swayed. we are here to learn and hear other's opinions as well as teach. if i didn't accept any other opinions i'd still have one rat living in a 10 gallon aquarium, eating walmart's horrible rat food.


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## RiverSidePrideRattery (Jan 17, 2009)

I handle the babies from day 1, As does all the breeders i know. The sooner and more the Rittens are held the friendlier they seem to turn out. 

Had one litter that at 5 weeks escapes and dound all but one boy.....6 months later found him living in the garage and wasstill friendly as could be....i dont think any other rats would be that way if they were not handled from the start.....obviously thats my opinion though.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

juliebug said:


> siamese...ration and lil spaz may be set in their opinions on _this _ subject...but in all of the posts ive seen from you, you have never been swayed. we are here to learn and hear other's opinions as well as teach. if i didn't accept any other opinions i'd still have one rat living in a 10 gallon aquarium, eating walmart's horrible rat food.


I don't know why you pick me out of all 3 of us?
You could easily have said they were never swayed. I have never seen them change their opinion in anything.
And I'm willing to listen to rattie information - where I feel it's good and could be helpful.
But I've owned rats a number of years, I know exactly how to care for them. I rescue many but I also have had a lot of different situations, from pregnancy to almost every health-based problem, etc etc.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Siamese said:


> juliebug said:
> 
> 
> > siamese...ration and lil spaz may be set in their opinions on _this _ subject...but in all of the posts ive seen from you, you have never been swayed. we are here to learn and hear other's opinions as well as teach. if i didn't accept any other opinions i'd still have one rat living in a 10 gallon aquarium, eating walmart's horrible rat food.
> ...


In this particular circumstance our opinion is based upon common knowledge that is agreed upon by 'rat experts' and very experienced breeders alike. Your opinion is there "because you say so". 

Experience isn't everything. You have to be willing to* learn * and listen to others to make your experience mean anything


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

I wouldn't necessarily consider the people you call rat experts experts so you can hardly say that. Besides, experience is what a lot of these 'experts' are going by. I have had rat litters, I have had most problems I know of, so I don't know what makes these people any different other than they breed them, and I don't.

Because I also have studied rats a lot. I don't see the need to handle them so young and that is not going to change, but on the other hand you handle them early and that is not going to change, so it's pointless we'll go in circles and still not ever agree.


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