# Breeder and Rats in shelters



## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

I just went on to my humane society's website. Big mistake. About 20 rats most babies. Really big mistake. If I had more cages they would all have home right now. Then I went onto a breeder's website. Said breeder had about 8 litters. Birth dates ranging from March 29th to April 21st. Really. How are you supposed to socialize that many rats at a time. 80+ rats! Seriously. And she had about 8-10 litters in the end of February to March too. And she still has baby rats that she hasn't found homes for yet. If you can't find homes for the ones you have then don't breed more. Simple. Then I thought back to the rats in the shelter. I get that breeders want to improve lines and such and create healthier rats. And I want healthier rats. But, how can you produce so many more when loving rats are in the shelters by dozens. If breeders only produce one litter at a time I have no problem with that. But, 8 is to many when the humane society in the breeder's and my area has 20 baby rats. (If talking about breeders and litters is against the rules if I am not breeding then I am sorry and the mods can remove this.)


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Not all breeders are reputable or even good breeders. If you or someone who know wanted to save a rat, those rats at the shelter are the ones to go for IMO- so many of them means that some could be euthanized. Also you will give your money to a rescue and not a pet store. The breeder you're talking about couldn't care less about the rats at the shelter, it is sad but true.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Sometimes, if there is a rescue nearby with openings, shelters will send some to the rescue to lighten their loads.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good if they have a rat rescue close by. There was a case of over 200 rats that needed rescue in my city. Two rat rescues came from over 15 hours away (1 way!!!!). I brought lots of lettuce and carrots (water bottle couldn't be used while driving- and also states regulation on what food can be brought across states...) to one rescue and I got to see all those rats in the van! So yes, sometimes rat rescues come from really far away to save some ratties.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

MRR helped out with the West Side Highway Rescue. Some jackass dumped 500 albino rats on a median and drove off. 

http://gothamist.com/2015/07/14/these_rats_are_doomed.php


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> MRR helped out with the West Side Highway Rescue. Some jackass dumped 500 albino rats on a median and drove off.
> 
> http://gothamist.com/2015/07/14/these_rats_are_doomed.php



This makes me sick! Thank god there are actually good people around to take them. 

Someone called me last week to rescue a cat and her new born litter. I was going to take them. I called her back and explained that right now, I'm not sure I can care for more cats and I have 14? as it is. 

She sent me a text message a couple of days later to tell me that one of the kittens drowned with all the rain we had last week. 

I get SO ANGRY at the people who just dump their pets, that really need homes, that I REALLY want to help! If it wasn't such a common thing to just dump an animal, I wouldn't have so many and it breaks my heart that I can't take more.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Isn't there a rescue or something nearby? I get that they have a bad reputation for euthanasia, but kittens in particular go like hot cakes. And generally there's a lot of low cost S&N clinics. If people contact me needing help, I send them a PDF I compiled with neuter clinics and rescues that can help. 

A lot of rescues will do courtesy postings to Petfinder, and many people don't realize that.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

You wouldn't believe how _many_ rescues there are around here! The problem is that there are SO many animals dumped around here that they are nearly always full. 

On top of that, ones that take cats are few and far between. That's why they called me.

I have never lived anywhere that has such a huge population of dumped and homeless animals. It's pretty bad here!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

And we do have a great low cost spay/ neuter clinic here. They know me by name!


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Do people like barn cats?

TNR.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It is aggravating when people don't cooperate even a little...they say a litter won't change anything, my cat/dog needs to have a litter, my children need to see the miracle of life at least once, etc...is it pure laziness? Or they don't understand the consequences of their choices? Or they are so helpless that they think their actions have no global consequences, or they just don't care at all...? Fortunately low spay/neuter clinics are sprouting everywhere making it cheaper and more convenient for people to do the RIGHT thing.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

I saw the "miracle of life" on a number of occasions. Lost an entire litter of kittens, save for one - mom cat went nuts and a little feral afterwards before dying. Whole litter of puppies stolen and hit by cars. Poisoned. Not much miraculous about it, other than, "maybe nobody dies."

Have I considered being a breeder of something? Yeah, but I haven't gotten to a point where I saw a good enough reason to do it, especially considering I'd be responsible for the offspring.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Don't get me started on english bulldog breeders. Its bad enough that they are already riddled with deformities, then you have tons of idoit breeders looking to make a quick buck breeding them. Really, a reputable breeder wouldn't even breed bulldogs in the first place unless they were activly trying to breed out the dogs awful posture and health problems. Otherwise "reputable bulldog breeder" is an oxymoron. You'd think the fact that they can't even breed or give birth properly would be a clear sign that they are unfit to reproduce. Its natures way of saying "stop polluting the genepool"


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

Gribouilli said:


> It is aggravating when people don't cooperate even a little...they say a litter won't change anything, my cat/dog needs to have a litter


I have a friend who has an awesome dog. They want to breed the dog so she can have a litter of puppies. My friend thinks that their dog will only have maybe one or two because it's a small dog, but size means very little! Even the vet was saying that their dog could possibly have upwards to 10 puppies! "Oh but she needs to experience childbirth!" Please, no more. So I explained where they could end up if the puppies can't find homes, and if they still can't find homes most cases the shelter will euthanize them. This friend of mine had no idea and they were horrified, because in their country there's a bunch of stray dogs roaming the street and people just take them off the street if they want them. It's a completely different world over there. At that time I put them off wanting to breed their dog. 

They went back to their country and came back a year later to visit telling me they want to breed their dog again and asked if I want puppies. *sigh* I couldn't get into it with them anymore, people are going to make (terrible) decisions regardless.

Another time I knew someone in School who wanted to start breeding hamsters and sell them to the pet shops in town. In no time at all they got a ton of hamsters procreating like nuts, and none of the pet shops wanted them. It got so out of hand that they had to (I believe) euthanize almost all of them (a lot became ill). They were really sweet hamsters too, my school took one as a class pet.

Accidents do happen, but intentionally breeding animals shouldn't be taken as lightly as it is.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

There are good and bad people, irresponsible and responsible people involved in any activity under the sun... So it is with breeders. I have no issue with intentional breeding for whatever purpose a person has (as long as it is not damaging to the health or quality of life to the animals produced), but I do expect them to be honest about their purposes, take responsibility for the animals they produce, and know ahead of time what the consequences might be. 

I know people that breed rats as feeders and have large numbers of litters at a time... However, they are honest about what they do, are responsible for all the animals they produce (i.e. none get released or end up in shelters or rescues), they keep the animals in good conditions, feed a good diet, and seek vet care if needed (i.e. antibiotics, etc.). I know pet breeders that only produce 1-4 litters a year, have a long wait list, socialize out the wazoo, etc. Again, they take responsibility for all of the animals they produce, they keep them in a good environment and treat them humanely, etc. 

I think the problems arise when you get a mixture of what the person presents themselves as vs. what they are actually doing or are capable of doing. In the case you noted, it sounds like you have someone who is basically a hoarder, who likes the "idea" of being a breeder and is presenting themselves as such, but is not capable or willing to know what that entails. You could also have someone that is breeding for food purposes but also wants to sell some as pets on the side, but without being honest about it (which is a huge red flag in my book). 

I breed and I do so in an attempt to produce rats with great temperaments and health that would make excellent pets... I chose to go into this venture because there are no rescues in my local area and no breeders to purchase from. I wanted to produce good rats for myself but also be an option for people here locally other than going to a chain store and buying mill-bred, sickly, and unsound animals. I breed knowing that there may be occasional rats available at our shelter (I have never seen any, but there could be) but I also know that those rats could very well be sick, be aggressive, or otherwise might not be the best pets for someone that doesn't know what they are getting into. All that said, I take responsibility for every rat I produce and have not and would not dump them in a shelter or on a rescue. 

I have the same views as regards breeding other types of animals as well and I am not necessarily all about mandatory spay / neutering and banning breeding. I believe that in the long run, such measures could end up making domestic animals extinct (or at the very least, all the intentionally bred breeds), which is not a good end result IMO... Yes, there will always be unwanted pets and yes there will always be irresponsible owners, but that will not change (in its' entirety) because people are lazy and some people just don't care... People have free will and the end results are sometimes not so pretty. 

IMO educating people about how to be responsible owners is a good step, but they have to choose to be responsible and many will not choose to do so. To a certain extent, this is where a breeder application process helps. Most people that are willing to put the effort into contacting a breeder to ask questions, fill out an application, etc. will also put forth a decent effort in caring for the animals they get... The same can be said for a rescue that has an application process. 

OP: I am sorry for ranting a little bit on your thread and taking it slightly OT.. I just get tired of reading the scads of posts all over the net that lump all breeders together as evil, money-grubbing, inconsiderate people and that what they do should be banned, etc.. in the case you mentioned, yes, this is an irresponsible and probably dishonest person who doesn't have the animals' best interests at heart and I would not buy from them knowing that.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Responsible breeders are not the problem at all. They are working towards a positive goal for the rat community.

The problem is the BYBs, the "accidental litters" and all the people who are going to go buy from a pet shop instead of that rescue.

I am very pro rescue and against all BYB. I volunteered for a long time at a shelter. I did TNR programs. I saw first hand how many cats get thrown out & then all the ones that have to be put down because idiots let their cats breed. It broke my heart. 

I'm like 99% sure what breeder you are talking about. And they are one of the best breeders around. She has so many litters because she is in fairly high demand and can. I'd imagine babies available on her site may not be updated perfectly to reflect what she does have available. People pay hundreds of dollars to have her babies shipped to them and she is also doing an event soon which will be delivering babies all over the place from her so she may be breeding more on demand for that as well. 
Most of her rats are likely not even going to be sold around you but going to the US.
She also works very hard on some varieties really making them quite nice & that often takes alot of litters.

Also which might surprise some, many breeders do not socialize their babies at all. They breed for genetic temperament and have amazing perfect sweet babies. I know that the breeder in question does handle her babies atleast somewhat though. 

A good breeder always takes responsibility for their babies. I don't know a single breeder who will not take back their babies at anytime if the person needs to rehome them for any reason. And every single baby that doesn't find a home should either be kept as a pet or culled.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> Do people like barn cats?
> 
> TNR.


Some people want barn cats. The shelter I used to work with was good about contacting people looking for barn cats when feral cats ended up at the shelters.

We one TNR program here. Unfortunately, they can't afford to do it for free. If someone has a feral cat around, they have to pay $50 to get a cat spayed or neutered. 

When I was in college, there was a FANTASTIC TNR program. The feral cat population was under control. The program was so successful that if you had a cat, but couldn't afford to have them fixed, they would pay for the whole thing with a microchip. You could even go to your own vet. Cats always seem to find me where ever I go, so I was really grateful for that program!


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## Fraido (Oct 1, 2014)

artgecko said:


> There are good and bad people, irresponsible and responsible people involved in any activity under the sun... So it is with breeders. I have no issue with intentional breeding for whatever purpose a person has (as long as it is not damaging to the health or quality of life to the animals produced), but I do expect them to be honest about their purposes, take responsibility for the animals they produce, and know ahead of time what the consequences might be.
> 
> I know people that breed rats as feeders and have large numbers of litters at a time... However, they are honest about what they do, are responsible for all the animals they produce (i.e. none get released or end up in shelters or rescues), they keep the animals in good conditions, feed a good diet, and seek vet care if needed (i.e. antibiotics, etc.). I know pet breeders that only produce 1-4 litters a year, have a long wait list, socialize out the wazoo, etc. Again, they take responsibility for all of the animals they produce, they keep them in a good environment and treat them humanely, etc.
> 
> ...


My opinion summed up right here! Lol


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

At my last job, one of the more common excuses I heard for not fixing a dog was that the person wanted wanted one that dog's puppies. 

And then there were the people who were looking to adopt a female to breed! 

The ONLY good excuse I heard for not spaying/neutering was to wait 2? years for large breed dogs. I was told they need those hormones for the best prevention of hip dysplasia. 

Then was the lady who said she was _helping_ the animal shelter because she found homes for the litters of puppies her dog had on a routine basis, and she was not a breeder!

A couple of years ago, my neighbor got a cat to catch the mouse that he had in his home. She got pregnant. I offered to pay for her spay, but he said 'I like her the way she is. Spaying her would change her." He put the kittens outside and forgot about them. After Layla, the cat caught the mouse, he put her outside too. Guess where she ended up? Yep. She moved into my house and had another litter of kittens! I'm really serious, she came inside my house one day and then had her kittens. Needless to say, she's my cat now! 

She's the 5lb cat who beats up the 100 lb dog on a routinely basis! For a while, he wouldn't come out of the back room for fear of getting beat on and he is still leery of being around her a year later!


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I also agree with moonkissed that socializing isn't always necessary if you are working on good genetic temperament.. It can actually be detrimental. I have run into maternal aggression in my first few litters because the breeder I got my stock from socializes a lot and it "hides" temperamental faults, which then pop up unexpectedly... I am now having to deal with a line that is socialized, but carries unstable, skittish, and maternally aggressive traits and trying to get those out of my lines. I want to KNOW my rats are sound before any of them goes to a pet home.

I am on the fence about spaying / neutering dogs. I know there is some research out there not only about bone growth / growth hormones being related, but also about hormonal conditions related to growth hormone (thyroid and some others too). I know that some holistic vets advise not spaying / neutering, but doing vasectomies (which are apparently common in Europe, where spaying /neutering in mass is not recommended to everyone). People with females usually just keep them confined during heat, but I believe chemical castration is also an option often used in Europe too. With cats, there is not much evidence that spay / neuter has negative side effects as it does in dogs. When I purchase a dog, if the breeder is agreeable, I plan to do a vasectomy, or wait until at least 2 years to neuter.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Spaying would change her? 

Ha - nope. What could noticeably change her is having a litter. That's how I lost Leah. She had a litter, which I was horribly against, and then became antisocial and eventually stopped visiting home as much. And then one day my neighbor found her in his garden.

I was sixteen with no job, and my mother, who adopted a male (Panther) and a female (Leah) kitten, didn't get them fixed. And when she finally did, she got Panther fixed, but not Leah. "But they're brother and sister! They _can't_ possibly breed."

And then I told her not to let them outside, and she did. (She was still surprised we had kittens.)

And then, when Leah finally had her kittens, my mother kept moving the nest to where she wanted instead of where Leah put it (under our living room coffee table). I made the mistake of leaving cotton in there, which frayed, and after a whole fiasco, one of the kittens had to have its leg amputated. I was going to keep her - but she and Leah got stressed from all the movement, and Leah ripped out the sutures. The vet stapled her back together and I started bottle feeding her, but it was too much stress. She was 10 days old. Her name was Adelei

We eventually lost the whole litter and Leah. And that's the story I tell people when they want to breed their animal.

My two lost girls:


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I was in a situation kind of like that with my exhusband until I grew balls. 

He refused to get ONE female fixed. I'm sure I don't have to tell you she got pregnant. And got pregnant again, and again. And those babies had babies that also had babies. It was a nightmare that I never want to go through again! Inbreeding leads horrible places and killed my beautiful Kelly girl. 

By the time I grew my own huevos, I also ran into some money. He had plans for that money, but I had my own ideas! 

By the time it was all said and done, I had all 41, yes forty-one of them fixed. The saddest part was that it killed my cat. MOST of the kittens died. Most of the ones that did live had genetic defects and very short lives, except for Scooter who is coming up on 13 years. She's never been sick at all, but she sure is a pain the ass! Very bossy little thing and easily offended!


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Haha. Yeah. I run my house now as an adult. Depending on finances, I sometimes room with my mother (like after breaking my ankle), but I have enough say and money to keep her from screwing up like that again. I got everyone fixed at 6 months. I wish I could have waited until they were two, but I knew if I did, there would be another fiasco. I'm finally getting my own apartment in June, so everything will be back to normal. I can't wait.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

When I was a teenager I had a Chihuahua mix dog that for some reason (probably money) we hadn't gotten spayed. She got pregnant and not knowing that she could be spayed pregnant, she had puppies. She had 3 puppies, I had to find 5 homes for them (some changed their minds after having the puppy for a while) and later I found that one had been left on the highway because he dug a hole in the yard. It's been 50 years and I still fret about that. I don't do litters.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

raindear said:


> I found that one had been left on the highway because he dug a hole in the yard. It's been 50 years and I still fret about that.


Yeah, this kind of thing is hard. Even though we know we personally didn't do anything wrong, we still beat ourselves up for not doing something different at the time. 

Just know that whatever happened to that puppy, s/he's not suffering _now. _

Also, I know from my own personal experience that what goes around comes around.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> Yeah, this kind of thing is hard. Even though we know we personally didn't do anything wrong, we still beat ourselves up for not doing something different at the time...


Yeah, but there's still always that notion of doing more. I didn't take Adelei away the first time. I could have nursed her at school with me; my school was a weird one and wouldn't have cared.

But live and learn, I guess.


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