# rat Nuggets



## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

Ok so I got my new rats and when getting them i decided to try the rat nuggets for them because i thought with the muesli my old rats never liked much of it and would pick through it and was a waste of money i also gave them fresh veggies twice a week ..... With the new ones i got this 
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/nugget-rat-food-4kg-by-pets-at-home-15680
But After reading the posts by Olddeadpig and seeing the state his rats were in which btw i think is discusting how someone could let there pet get like that and then blame on someone elses breeding (sorry i wont rant) but yeah anyway back to the point i read that nuggets are bad for them can cause cancer and to be obese... so do i stop feeding them those nuggets?


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

I've fed PAH rat nuggets since I started having rats almost 3 years ago now. I know many others that feed them too. I've had 5 rats so far and have had no issues with obesity. Gizmo is rather chubby, but that's because he's stupidly lazy (he's been lazy since a baby!) opposed to diet. Lying down bruxxing and boggling has always been more fun to him than exploring running around! Lol. He's around 22 months old now and no health issues as of yet though. I'll definitely be carrying on feeding PAH rat nuggets. I prefer them to the muesli option where they can selective feed leading to obesity.


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## KathyM (Mar 31, 2010)

I would disagree, I have kept rats for 15 years, mostly in a rescue capacity but also as pets and as a responsible breeder. Noone I know in the rat fancy would recommend PAH or Burgess nuggets as they are well known to be linked to mammary tumours, pituitary tumours and obesity, we have been discussing this just today on the National Fancy Rat Society forum. They contain very high levels of fat and are made from poor ingredients, and I believe there are studies about if I have read correctly. 

When it comes to alternatives, I would highly recommend reading a book called The Scuttling Gourmet by Alison Campbell. I feed a mix and have not one obese rat nor any that selectively feed. Feeding a good mix properly doesn't allow for that and is much healthier than the nuggets. 

I am more than happy to share what I make my mix from if anyone is interested. I do not feed any commercial rat mixes because they are in general poor quality.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

yeah I wasnt so much bothered about the obesity because i can cut the nuggets out easily like use them a small amount with other foods whilst weening them off and i still feed them fresh stuff i was just so worried about the cancer part i mean i wouldnt wanna do them harm u know .. all my pets ive had lasted so long my previous rats were about just under 3 and 1 nearly four and my dog was 19 when she had to be put down so i mean my animals have always lived to be pensioners i care so much about them so i was just worried thank you very much for ur help


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

And yes please i would love if u could give me a great recipe for them


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

I am not familiar with rat "nuggest". Are you in the UK? And if so, is this the UK term for "lab blocks"? 

As for whether or not nuggets/blocks cause cancer, obesity, whatever, that will depend on the formula, brand, and ingredients used. Since I'm not familiar with that brand, I can't help much, but if you are in the US a highly recommended brand is Harlan Teklad and Oxbow is another. 

Just because an item is on the market, doesn't necessarily mean it is "ok" or even "good". Think of all the rat "mixes" sold in pet stores that are no good, as well as pine and cedar bedding.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

Well i dont know what they are called in the us but yes im in the UK... and yes i know about the bedding and that i just didnt know about the nuggets luckily its only the first time ive used them i bought the big bag tho :/ but i guess ill ween them off them and get something else like i said above i used to use meuslis and fresh fruit diet but for my new babys i thought id try the nuggets and fresh fruit :/


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Sorraia said:


> I am not familiar with rat "nuggest". Are you in the UK? And if so, is this the UK term for "lab blocks"?


Yes, it's a lab block. These are the nuggets - http://www.petsathome.com/shop/nugget-rat-food-4kg-by-pets-at-home-15680


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

Lol Im so confused people telling me there bad and people telling me there not sooooo are they lab blocks then and are they good for the rats or not ???


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

> [stacey][ ]
> Lol Im so confused people telling me there bad and people telling me there not sooooo are they lab blocks then and are they good for the rats or not ???


It can be confusing, don't feel bad!

Think of it this way:
Not all blocks/nuggets are created equal.

So, you may have a brand that IS good, and then you can have a brand that is NOT good.

For example: Here in the US we have several brands of blocks. Let's look at Kaytee and Harlan Teklad. Kaytee brand contains preservatives and chemicals that can be harmful to rats, and thus is a bad brand. The Harlan Teklad is especially formulated for rats and does not contain these harmful preservatives, thus is a good brand. 

I am not familiar with the brands available in the UK, so can't recommend anything. However, if people say it is bad, I would err on the side of caution and look for something better.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

yeah i mean im swaying to that side its just i have like a whole bag left so before i chuck them or ween them off them i dont wanna waste it... and since they are a block/nugget i just need to know if its the good kind or the bad kind like u say.... i dont really want to go back to what i fed my own rats because i wasted alot of money on the stuff they didnt eat in the meusli.. so i just need a solution thats great for the rats that wont cost a bomb


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

ok so i got a list of fresh stuff they can have alot of it i already knew.. i just need a dry mix i can make now.

also i just moved house i used to have a vegetable patch and i will be getting another one soon .. ill have to make a rattie veggie patch


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## LisaLQ (Oct 14, 2007)

The reason why most owners shy away from nuggets and blocks is because they are not adaptable to individual rats, plus they are not interesting for them either. Rats are not like rabbits, and will eat all they're given if they're not overfed. If you feed a muesli style diet and they are leaving some, then you need to feed them less, and they will eat it - they wont go hungry.

You cant adapt a nugget/block to suit an old rat, or a kitten, or a skinny rescue, or an overweight chunk, or a rat with kidney problems, etc. A muesli diet you can alter to find what's best for YOUR rats.

I wont feed a specific brand of nuggets even if I thought they were adaptable, as it is thought that they raise the risks of obesity and cancer. I wont name a brand or the people who claim this but I can say it's very many respected people in the rat fancy, some of whom have rats in the best condition I've ever seen.

For an easy nutritious diet for your rat - rabbit food is the answer. Some people add some dried dog food for protein (although many well respected breeders dont - again - the same ones with rats in peak fitness), and some low sugar (under 5g per 100g) cereals and unsalted crackers (eg ryvita, rice cakes).

My mix is on my website - I find it changes constantly depending on the season, the rats, the line, their age etc. Kittens get more in the form of fresh protein (eg tinned sardines, porridge, scrambled eggs), whereas older rats just get veg and the occasional treat.

No rat can get obese without food to do so. An overfed rat will get fat, Zucker or not. It's very simple to prevent, but a nightmare to correct when it's too late. Overweight rats are at a much higher risk of health issues.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

I had 4 rats they had a diet of meusli fresh fruit and veggies and some cereals at times .. and then some treat none of my rats were overweight like i said im not worried about that i was just worried about my new rats ( old rats are dead now) i Started my new rats on a diet of the nuggets because i thought they were good but now i find out about the cancer issues.... the obesity is nothing to worry about i wouldnt allow my rats to get like that or even risk it. We got past the nuggets issue really... now i was just asking for a substitute for the meusli as I KNOW my old rats just didnt like certain parts of it ... so to save me wasting money on buying it and getting rid of the bits they wont EVER eat i just wanted a homemade recipe of dried food for them. I DO NOT overfeed my rats this is not the issue.... the obesity was just linked because they were linked to the nuggets. ( i probably dont make much sense .. i know that im just trying to get to the bottom of this issue of a good balanced diet... but then corious of the nuggets.. i mean they are even included here in the list of a mix for the rats to eat http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,21117.0.html ) It just seems everyone has a different opinion about either to include them fully only a little or not at all.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Most owners I've met in my travels don't "shy away" from nuggets/blocks in general, just the poor quality and inappropriate for rat ones such as what the OP mentioned in their first post. I have to wonder if it is location specific - I don't know how hard it is to find quality nuggets in the UK, but I do know that there are some relatively highly acclaimed ones here in North America. The top three brands tend to be Mazuri, Oxbow Regal Rat, and Harlan Teklad. Ratguide recommends Mazuri and Harlan Teklad here.

Feeding a GOOD quality lab block in ADDITION to a balanced diet is what I do personally, and have heard recommended many times. Everyone gets 18% Harlan Teklad, which if you're unfamiliar with the name, you can check out here. But what they get as supplement and variety is different depending on age, health, etc. I make a grain mix similar to Suebees of things like rainbow pasta, rolled oats, whole grain crackers and cereal, dried fruit, some seeds, etc. and mix that with the blocks. That is the "staple" part of it. Babies get more protein in the source of meat, hardboiled egg, yogurt, etc. and meal replacement supplements such as Ensure, Boost, or baby formula. Adults get more nutritious veggies such as kale, cauliflower, swiss chard, broccoli, spinach, carrots, etc. for maintenance. This page has a fairly comprehensive list of nutrient requirements for rats. It would be interesting to see what a fully nutritional diet with and without blocks using that standard would look like.

I think that if you can find a good quality nugget/lab block and feed that alongside a varied diet, that is optimal. I rest assured knowing that my rats have at least a good foundation diet in lab blocks, although I would not recommend them for anything but that.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

Thank you.... since i have seen no factual evidence and everyones opinion varies im going to stick with a balanced diet.. since ive only had these two a week anyway i wanted to use what they had before i got them and slowly introduce new stuff ... but now what ill do is a mixed diet including the nuggets i have left the menu i think will be something similar to 10% the rat nuggets 30% a vairety of cereals all non sugared 10% uncooked pasta spirals 30% meusli 10% dried fruit 10% and then theres a few other bits to add variety and ofcourse they have fresh fruit and veg aswell and ofcourse the percentges will vary too but ill include alot of the things everyones suggested really.. i just need to make a shopping list go to the store and see what i can get and mix it all up and put it in a tub.


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## KathyM (Mar 31, 2010)

Sorry, I should have made it much clearer in my post - although I choose not to feed a pellet or "lab block" diet to my rats due to the reasons Lisa outlined better than I can, that is not the reason I try to steer people away from the Burgess/PAH nuggets. Burgess did originally make all the Pets at Home diets, and both their Excel nugget and the PAH nugget are very similar in makeup and are incredibly fattening. I have been told there are studies that show a link between these particular brands and mammary and pituitary tumours, that is something I will look into more and check back on. Given my personal experience with these specific brands, I would not recommend them to rat owners as I believe them to be of great enough risk to health and there are much better (and more nutritious) alternatives out there, as outlined in The Scuttling Gourmet, which is a book I recommended before. 

My mix consists of:

55% pellet free rabbit food or "mixed flakes" from the feed store as a base.
Maximum of roughly 5-10% of low protein (18% level ish) dog food, such as James Wellbeloved senior fish and rice, Jollye's Fish and Rice (I use currently) or Autarky Autumn/Senior (amount depends on age and needs).
35-40% sugar free cereals such as puffed wheat, spelt, rhye, salt-free rice cakes, etc.

I add to this mix a relative helping of kelp and garlic powder. Underweight rescues coming into my care, or growing babies, get some dry pasta added, I do not give this to average adult rats as I have found it to be unnecessary calories and a bit fattening. It is good for getting weight on those who need it though. 

I also give my rats seeds such as millet as it seems to give them a great coat, and all ras get daily fresh food. What they get depends on their age and needs, and includes higher protein extras such as sardines or eggs for babies, and nutritious greens for all ages and sizes, such as curly kale. 

I do not get any selective feeders, obese rats or underweight ones either, as I watch their weights and feed only when they have finished. Works very well for me, and speaking as someone who did feed nuggets when they first came out, I have noticed far better health since I changed.


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## ][stacey][ (Nov 4, 2007)

Thank you for being more clear ... i will make a mix up menu properly in the morning for now im going to go to bed cause ive been up early and decorating all day... I will take bits from all the mixes i think and make one that suits my ratties and is both what they want and what they need.... and like i said my vegetable patch will be being made again soon so they will get all there fresh stuff soon and i know that it will be safe for them because i grew it ( for now they have to make do with the fresh food i can get from the shop)... Also quick question u say u feed ur rats millet .. millet is addictive to birds as i also have a bird.. are u sure its wise for rats.. i mean if it is i could hang some up there for them to


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## KathyM (Mar 31, 2010)

I would say they really like it, but it's not as addictive as Dr Squiggles (aka rat crack).  They do seem to positively gleam when they've had it though.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

I have to disagree that all "blocks/nuggets" are bad for rats, because quite frankly that is not the case. If you feed a poor quality diet, no matter what it is, your animals WILL have health problems. At least here in the US there ARE some good quality blocks, that in theory can be fed as the sole diet of the rat. There is no increased risk of cancer, nor obesity for the normal rat who knows how to self-regulate. But this is a good quality block. Feeding "rabbit food" to rats is a new one to me, and something that I have to disagree greatly with. Maybe "rabbit food" is different in the UK, but here in the US "rabbit food" is either hay pellets or hay itself, and that is NOT an appropriate diet for rats.

If you want to know what really IS a good diet for rats, and make your own diet from scratch, go back to biology. Biologically rats are granivores and opportunistic omnivores. In a nutshell, this means rats will eat nearly anything, but prefer seeds/grains. So a biologically appropriate diet for rats would focus on seeds/grains. Of course to make this a balanced diet, you will need variety. In the wild, seeds/grains are different from what is cultivated. Oats, wheat, rice, all of those are very different from what the original plant was. So, the best diet would be one based on "heirloom" varieties of seeds/grains, not the new cultivated varieties. A biologically appropriate diet for a rat will also include plant matter: fruits and vegetables. Rats don't graze like horses, so grass and hay as a large part of the diet is inappropriate. Rats also don't browse like goats, so many leaves and sticks are inappropriate. In the wild, rats will primarily be eating the soft fleshy parts of plants. This means fruits and "vegetables" (which in many cases are actually fruits: squash, tomatoes, cucumbers, even corn, all biologically fruits). Rats will also eat soft new growth of some leaves and grasses, but this is not a large part of their diet, probably even some flowers. Finally, rats are opportunistically omnivorous, so they will eat some "meat". For the most part this "meat" is going to be restricted to invertebrates. Rats aren't big enough to hunt down cows or chickens, so feeding rats meat like we eat may actually be inappropriate. If a rat is eating meat it is probably a very small amount and restricted to carrion, if any at all (I'm skeptical on this at all because a predator will guard its kill and the rat trying to eat carrion will become its next meal, a large animal that dies will quickly attract scavengers who will also gladly eat the rat that tries to come in for carrion, by the time the predator leaves the kill, there will not be much meat left for the rat, only bones to gnaw on). Rats might eat reptiles, maybe birds (most likely restricted to nestlings), and eggs. 

So, if you don't have a good quality block available to you, or in general don't want to rely on processed, pre-packaged foods, then try to recreate the natural diet of the rat. A variety of seeds and grains, some fruits and veggies, and small amounts of protein in the form of invertebrates or bird eggs.


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## KathyM (Mar 31, 2010)

I give the rats millet, and/or Holland and Barrett Omega Sprinkle, which is mostly flax and linseed. I avoid sunflower seeds for some reason that I now forget, might be the 'wrong' type or level of oils? I make my mix up in bulk and add a couple of dessert spoons of garlic powder and more of kelp (but I am making quantities of 7-10kg at a time). 

While I am sure there are nutritionally 'complete' rat blocks in the US perhaps, my rats prefer a mix and are in better health and condition on the mix too. I reserve judgement on US diets as I cannot possibly comment, but the diets mentioned as good are not available in the UK, and I would still pick a mix over an all in one diet as it is more adaptable and the rats prefer it.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Ema - I understand what you mean about not finding good block in Canada. That's one thing that makes the Internet difficult - so many people from so many different parts of the world sharing information and making recommendations that aren't always possible/feasible because of the different areas we live in.

As for seeds in a mix diet - sunflower seeds are ok, but in limited amount. They do tend to be high in fat and protein, and for sensitive animals can cause issues (particularly skin issues). There are black oil sunflower seeds and there are the big black and white striped sunflower seeds. The black oil sunflower seeds are more similar to what might be found in a wild sunflower, but I think they are also more intensely packed with oils (read: fats). These are the kinds of sunflower seeds birds like. I personally stick with the black and white sunflower seeds, and mix them with raw pumpkin seeds (still healthy, but less fatty). One batch of the mix I make comes out to around 6-8 pounds, and about a quarter pound of that entire batch is sunflower/pumpkin seeds. When you think about the natural habitat of the rat, it does make sense to limit the sunflower seed intake (and vary the diet, season to season). Sunflowers aren't in seed at all times, so naturally a rat won't be eating large amounts of sunflower seeds at all times of the year. Even when sunflowers are in seed, the rats would be competing with every other rodent and bird that is trying to take advantage of that tasty treat. Also take into consideration that wild sunflowers don't have the large seed heads that cultivated varieties do.

The mix I use also contains puffed cereals, but I avoid puffed rice, as I don't think its very nutritional (depends on the rice, but a lot of rice is packed with mostly starch/carbs, not as much nutrition; part of this is because in processing the rice grain for human consumption, the nutritious husk is removed). Instead of puffed wheat, I use puffed kamut (heirloom), and I used puffed millet (also heirloom), and throw in old-fashioned rolled oats (the husk is removed and the oats flattened when rolled, this makes them a little easier to eat). There is also pasta in my mix (I like to look for whole grain pasta, as it is healthier and less processed), and some dried fruits (when I buy dried fruits I look for those without added sugar, I have a food dehydrator that I'd like to get set up for drying my own fruits, then I can really control how much sugar goes into them). I also throw in various other grains, and vary ingredients every now and then, depending on availability. The mix I use started out similar to the "suebee mix", but then as I researched more and saw what my rats ate and didn't eat, I started varying it, trying to add more nutritious foods, make sure my rats will eat all of it (because really, any uneaten portion IS a waste of money and resource). Some of the extra food I might throw in include oat groats (oats with the husk), barley, flax seed, wheat germ (good source of folic acid), and more.

Other foods you can look at adding: 
buckwheat (good source of vitamin C - not common in grains/seeds, this is also something that wild rodents really like, when available)
quinoa
amaranth
sesame seeds (limited though, like you would sunflower seeds)

If you give your rats rice, brown rice is better than white rice. The brown coloration is created by the husk, which is why brown rice is more nutritious than white rice (because the nutritious husk has not been removed). You can also check out different varieties of rice, like wild rice. Rice is best given cooked.

I would avoid all corn, unless fresh, and even then limited. Corn in general is high in carbs and fat (where corn oil comes from - oil is a liquid form of fat), with little other nutrition. This doesn't make it "bad" necessarily, it just needs to be fed in limited amounts. The reason corn is given to livestock is to fatten them up, and its cheap. In the wild rats WILL eat corn, but that doesn't mean its something that should be a large part of their diet.

If you can't find some of this stuff in stores, check Amazon.com. I don't know how much shipping might be to Canada, but its worth a check. Nice thing about Amazon is that if you make an Amazon purchase of $25 or more, you get free shipping. All my puffed cereals are bought from Amazon: its cheaper because they sell in bulk, and I can save on shipping. Many of these others foods/grains are also available on Amazon. Check different brands, there ARE organic brands available.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> Thank you for all of the suggestions Sorraia. It is the black and white sunflower seeds that I feed, and I do limit the amount. Do you think it would be beneficial to feed them in the mix through winter and then not at all during summer. Or visa versa?
> Flax seeds I give about once a week, just a couple of seeds per rat and I dip them in canola oil.
> Now I actually have names of seeds I can go searching for them . I will definatly check out Amazon too... I thought they just sold Dvds. :-[
> 
> ...


As long as they are getting a well rounded, balanced, varied diet and seem to be doing well (healthy, slim and trim, active, not obese and lethargic) it won't hurt to give them the mix year round. In the wild rats are going to be eating different things at different times of the year. We can try to mimic that in captivity, but we don't have to. If you are concerned about protein and fat levels, adding fruits and veggies will help cut that down. Depending on specifically what you are giving, some fruits will add carbs (in the form of fructose: fruit sugar) to the diet as well as fiber (fiber is also a carb) and vitamins, veggies will add vitamins and fiber and a lower amount of sugar. Both fruits and veggies will add moisture to the diet too, which is important (in the wild many animals do not actually drink a lot of free water - though they will drink some - but get a lot of their moisture from their diet). If your rats seem to be missing something, you can always adjust. For example, if they seem to be gaining weight, maybe cut back on the mix and add more produce. If they seem to need a little "more", add more mix and either the same amount of produce or maybe less. Watching poos are important too. "Too much" produce can be seen in the form of thin, watery poos (diarrhea). A good normal poo should be fairly solid, and well formed, brownish in color, maybe a little fibrous if they have a lot of fiber in their diet. Darker colored poo (to the point of almost being black) probably means there's too much protein in the diet, lighter colored might mean there's not enough fiber.


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## LisaLQ (Oct 14, 2007)

Rabbit food must be different here to over there. Rabbit food is a mix of different flakes (usually wheat, peas, maize, etc) plus pellets which include essential vitamins and minerals. Grass does not make up a huge part of the mix, if any.

Here's the rabbit food I use:
http://www.valefeed.co.uk/small_animal.htm

We use the "fruitty" one. We add the following to it:

- dried dog food (fish or duck based)
- low sugar cereals (100% puffed wheat, organic jumbo oats, shredded wheat, other cereals with less than 5g sugar per 100g, also meat free dog mixer if I've got it handy)
- unsalted crackers (Ryvita, rice cakes, etc)
- seeds (usually low sunflower parrot mix, but if I cant get that - "omega mix" from Holland and Barret or Asda - pumpkin seeds, linseed, amongst others)
- seaweed powder and garlic powder

Optional extras depending on individual rats: dried pasta (for rats that need building up, otherwise avoided as it makes for fat rats),dred berries (bananas and cranberries being a firm favourite - although bananas are in the mix, so I obviously dont need to add these if I can get the usual rabbit food), various pet safe herbs (from the Naturals range sold in pet shops), dried chick peas (for rats that are rusting, as they are high in copper), pet safe dried veggies....amongst other things.

All rats get fresh veg either daily or a few times a week at least. Kittens get extra protein in the form of tinned sardines (the kind in tomato sauce, not brine), cooked good quality chicken, cat food, naturediet, scrambled eggs, porridge, and either a bottle of lactol (puppy milk replacement) or Dr Squiggles Daily Essentials alongside their water. Kittens also appreciate lots and lots of curly kale.

Even ifwe had the option of good nuggets, I wouldn't feed them personally - that's not to say I'd judge anyone who did, just explaining why I feel a varied diet is much better for them. I have used a lesser known brand of nuggets as part of my mix sometimes - but when I say "part", I mean roughly 2-3% max, as something a little bit different in texture in their mix. However, they really are very poor quality over here, and I dont use them regularly, and not the usual brands already mentionned.


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## LisaLQ (Oct 14, 2007)

Incidentally, a few of us breeders have noticed that our rats do eat grass, in fact choosing to - when we use hay as bedding (I dont use it personally any more, but have seen this myself too).


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## clarry (May 19, 2008)

I'm also in the Uk, and use a mixture. to be honest i really think its up to personal experience and what you feel works. for example Stace87 uses PAH nuggets and others say it may be un healthy. Mine get a mix, i will give them the rat museli mix and nuggets, either pets at home or excel (which I cannot find any more but there are similar ones) aswell as low fat cereal and oats, with some rice cakes broken up. Once a week or so I will also blend up some fruits into a sort of baby food and mix it in with some porridge oats and soya milk


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