# Pine Bedding



## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

So I was recommended by someone I trust who keeps rats and breeds mice to use pine. Now she doesn't use it because she is personally allergic to the stuff but she said that since the early 2000s the method of kiln drying pine has changed and now it's safe. She also showed me a study that compared different types of bedding and their affect on ammonia levels. Carefresh was EXTREMELY high and pine was about 1/10 of those levels. 
I have also been unable to find any studies on pine and it's health affects done after 2000 (they're all from the 90s). Additionally, multiple sources I've looked at have said that pine and it's aromatic phenols have not been proven to have significant adverse affects on rats health, especially once kiln dried. However, we know ammonia causes issues in rats. So is it better to use a bedding that's going to allow for a build up of ammonia but has no other "side effects" or one with alleged side affects but that keeps ammonia levels much lower?


----------



## InsideSunrise (Apr 28, 2017)

I've never heard of that before! I've only read that pine is toxic to rats, but other than that... It sounds as if you've done your research so trust your own judgement, though I personally wouldn't use pine. 

Maybe consider aspen, it is pretty much the same as pine only not toxic.


----------



## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

NEVER use pine unless it's kiln dried.Pine is toxic to rats.


----------



## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Please post links to the studies


----------



## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I said that the newer method of kiln drying makes it safe. So yes, I am discussing kiln dried pine.

https://www.thespruce.com/safe-and-toxic-woods-for-rats-1238293 - lists it as safe when kiln dried

http://australianrodentclub.com/?p=126 - explains why it is safe

http://www.awf.com/american_wood_fibers_pine_is_fine.htm - more in laymans terms and also has ammonia test chart


----------



## Arrowroot (Apr 9, 2017)

Rattielover965 said:


> NEVER use pine unless it's kiln dried.Pine is toxic to rats.


Maybe you - or someone else - can provide us with studies backing up this statement, too. I know people say this a lot, but I don't know about any reliable source confirming this.


----------



## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Arrowroot said:


> Maybe you - or someone else - can provide us with studies backing up this statement, too. I know people say this a lot, but I don't know about any reliable source confirming this.


When I say that pine is toxic,it is based on my over a year of research across many sites including this one and a rat show also saying pine is toxic unless kiln dried.Edit : I have tried posting links before but it often doesn't work.


----------



## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

ray said:


> I said that the newer method of kiln drying makes it safe. So yes, I am discussing kiln dried pine.https://www.thespruce.com/safe-and-toxic-woods-for-rats-1238293 - lists it as safe when kiln driedhttp://australianrodentclub.com/?p=126 - explains why it is safehttp://www.awf.com/american_wood_fibers_pine_is_fine.htm - more in laymans terms and also has ammonia test chart


Sorry I misunderstood.I thought you meant regular pine and kiln dried pine.


----------



## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

No worries. Even if I found multiple studies claiming that untreated pine was safe I wouldn't use it. But I have often heard the rhetoric to never use ANY pine bedding. So what my post was getting at was whether or not kiln dried pine would be a good bedding considering how well it removes ammonia in spite of the many people who claim all forms of pine are dangerous?? 
I apologise if I worded my post badly.


----------



## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Arrowroot said:


> Maybe you - or someone else - can provide us with studies backing up this statement, too. I know people say this a lot, but I don't know about any reliable source confirming this.


http://www.afrma.org/pineproblem.htm


----------



## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I've read that article before? but as I said, I was told that a change occurred before leaving during the early 2000s to kiln drying that has made pine safe. This study was done before that as were all it's sources. So it doesn't help too much. 
Besides, one of the articles I linked to was pre-2000s and it says that pine doesn't cause these health issues.
So is kiln dried pine safe or even a superior bedding due to it's ability to control ammonia?


----------



## Asiposea (Dec 16, 2016)

Bedding always tends to be a hot topic. 

I looked at this a while back. I actually remember reading through the second website you posted. You'll find passionate people on all sides of every bedding (pro-carefresh/anti-carefresh/pro-corncob/anti-corncob/pro-aspen, etc). It makes it all very confusing to rat owners. But like you, I saw that the studies for pine in particular were all very old and really weren't clear to me. Also, I found that breeders, yes even some in the AFRMA, choose to use KDP- I either saw it on their websites or asked them directly. My breeder recommends KDP. I typically use aspen but when they're out of stock I just get KDP. I don't think anybody has a definite answer on this backed with scientific evidence.


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I think the ammonia levels are just as low with any wood bedding actually (it's more wood vs paper, not pine vs carefresh) so that's why people generally use aspen. Should be just as effective, inexpensive, and leave no big question marks hovering in the air.


----------

