# UPDATE on my rat Hope with the cyst....



## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Im not sure if you will remember but I posted about my 4.5 week old beautiful rat that had a very fast growing lump. 

I have decieded to update so others in my situation can see one possible outcome..

Anyways the bump she had grew quick, it was firm in places and fluid in others. The skin was also purple in places where there was alot of blood build up inside. It was around her back left leg/gential area. 

We had the cyst removed. There was alot of fluid and blood and a hard mass underneath. The surgery cost a total of $169 with follow up meds and was considered a complete sucsess. Recovery was straight forward and she seemed to be doing great.

Not 5 days later the cyst had returned. It grew bigger and firmer than last time with alot more purple. She is 6 weeks old now and waiting to go into surgery yet again on tuesday to get the mass removed. She will also be getting a spay to see if this prevents them coming back. 

The vet doesnt think she will survive the surgery, but said she wouldnt make it another week without it so we are giving her every chance. This surgery will cost around $220 with follow up meds but is alot cheaper than getting the removal and spay done seperatly.

Poor little Hope, as we named her, is doing great in herself. Eating and drinking good so we are not ready to give up on her yet. 

Fingers crossed


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## go14go (Jan 14, 2010)

I know first hand how upsetting having your baby sick is (I have a post questioning nephrocalcinois) and will say a prayer for Hope. It sounds like you have a great vet who understands how much you can love a rat and how you are loved back a million times over. Good luck and will be watching to see how things go.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

How sad, I've got my fingers crossed for her...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

That's terrible - hoping for the best for her though. I've heard good things about Tri Lake as well but it is a good 4 hour drive from here and that's too far for me  Especially since I don't drive lol. My sister does take frequent trips to Vernon though as her husband's mother lives there so I could take them there for severe problems, surgery, and such things because my local vet is a doorknob when it comes to rats and I really only use her to get the medication I know I need...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

You can't link to pictures directly from your email inbox - you'll have to save it and upload it on a site like Tinypic, Flickr, Photobucket, etc.

Rats recover really fast from their surgeries, but I'm not sure on the exact recovery time. Between one and two weeks should be fine, as long as she is healthy and active by then she should be fine.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

That looks painful  Nice clean incisions though.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I wouldn't spay little Hope if she "died on the table" with the anesthetic. If I had a rat that had issues like that, I wouldn't chance it.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

I don't think I'd chance the spay either. Good luck whatever you decide though.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

well maybe at least wait until she recovefrs from the first surgery? Thats a lot to go thorugh so quick on a little body. Make sure shes strong enough for another one.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

was the tumor a mammary tumor or a malignant tumor? Spaying doesn't help with malignanicies. I am a total advocate of spaying, and once a younger girl gets a lump here, they are spayed as well. Sadly I have a 14 month old girl who had a tumor removed from her neck at 6 months. She was spayed. It has returned with a veangeance and it is nasty. Non-operable, very lumpy and invasive. Now I shall just watch her diet (low sugar/fats to not feed the **** thing) and pray she gets awhile


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It has _everything_ to do with genetics. The good breeders are more worried about tumor incidence and myco resistance than any other issue.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I know that in humans, cases of hereditary cancer are very rare (like ~9% total) and it is mostly caused by things like smoking, exposure to radiation, poor diet, exercise, infections, stuff like that. I would assume it is similar for rats.

Looking around at mammary tumors on rats it does seem that a small amount of it is genetics... But mostly other things, such as diet - high calorie diets, which not only promote tumor growth but also feed the tumor to grow rapidly, and the hormones estrogen and prolactinwhich explains why spaying would be beneficial as it would stop or dramatically slow the production of these hormones...

I can't imagine there are any mammary tumor free lines anywhere, and if a breeder told me that their rats were I would be concerned, but it does raise a red flag that she developed such an aggressive tumor at such a young age...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I didn't mean it like that, I was kind of backing up the fact that it is not something that any breeder could fully prevent.

I don't know about the different color thing, I've never personally heard of it and a few quick searches revealed no results... It is not entirely impossible, but it would not make much sense to breed platinums if they had weaker immune systems ???


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I shall ask my breeder friends on the NIRO forum about your questions.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Dr. Linda is great, she helped one of my rats pass and she did so with love and kindness. I haven't had any surgeries done there yet as they said they only do one rat surgery a month which kind of scared me but I'm glad you had such good results. I talked briefly with a vet at the Armstrong veterinary clinic and I wish I could remember his name now but he was very interested in doing a spay for me despite not having done one before, he gave me a very good feeling just talking to him. He was the only vet out of 20 called that returned my call directly to talk to me about it


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

1 rat surgery a month?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

I would definitely hold off and spaying this rat. If she had a bad reaction to surgery once, there's a good chance she can have a bad reaction the second time around, and the second time she might not be so lucky. Also, at this point there is no guarantee spaying will help. If it's a malignant tumor, ALL of it has to be removed, EVERY LAST cell. If even one piece of a cell is left, it can "contaminate" the healthy tissue and grow a new tumor all over again. Spaying ONLY helps with hormone-related tumors, which not all malignant tumors are. I am especially concerned about tumors showing up on such a young rat. Tumors are somewhat expected on rats 1.5-2 years old, they are alarming on rats 1-1.5 years, it is a downright disaster if it happens to a rat younger than 1 year.

Was a biopsy taken of the mass? If not, how are you sure exactly what it is? While there are characteristics to look at, a biopsy is the only way to know for sure.

As far as what causes tumors:
To put it in the simplest of terms: everything. Not literally, but there are all kinds of things that can cause tumors. Basically, a tumor is an uncontrolled growth of cells. What causes that varies. It could be a random mutation in one particular cell, it could be exposure to chemicals in the air, food, or the rest of the environment, it could be caused by hormones, it could be caused by injury or illness even. There CAN be a hereditary link, but it isn't a simple dominant/recessive situation. Genetics are complex, about the only genetics that are simple are colors, and even then it can get complex. Pretty much everything else is polygenic, making it more difficult to track and select for. All the cards need to be just right, all the ducks lined up in a row. If they aren't you can lose what you want and get what you don't want. 

In my personal opinion as a breeder, ANY rat that developed a tumor at this young an age would be scrapped from my breeding program, including any related rats. Whether there's a genetic link or not, I don't want to play with that kind of fire. That's too young to develop a tumor in the first place, let alone one so aggressive that comes back so quickly. As for other tumors... it depends - how many rats are developing the tumors? At what rate? What age? How quickly do the tumors grow? What kind of tumors are they (if removed and biopsied)? How well spread (one pet owner, or many)? If tumors showed up only for one pet owner, it would make me think environment - maybe that owner was feeding them a high fat, unhealthy diet and that lead to the tumors. If the tumors developed regularly in a random selection of rats, I'd be concerned. If they developed in a line (great-grandmother, grandmother, and mother all developed tumors), I would be concerned. If they happened after trauma (injury) I'd be less concerned. If they happened in males, especially regularly, I'd be more concerned. If they happened once in a blue moon, I'd be less concerned.

In all likelihood, it is probably almost impossible to completely breed out ALL tumors, because not all tumors are genetic. It IS possible to greatly reduce the rate of tumors. It's also been said that if a female develops a tumor, it is possible to breed her son and decrease the rate of tumors, theory being tumors are carried by the female side. I don't know if this entirely true or not. If tumors are sex-linked on the X chromosome (the only way for it to be carried in the female line, as females do not have a Y chromosome), breeding males instead of females isn't going to help because males have an X chromosome as do females. More likely tumors are sex-influenced, the phenotype is more dramatic in females than males, even though males carry the genotype as often as the females. The hardest part about breeding away from tumors is that most do not develop until later in life, after the rat has babies, grandbabies, maybe even great-grandbabies. The best thing is to avoid lines KNOWN for having high tumor incidence, and work the best you can with what you have when you have it. Keeping in touch with adopters is a MUST. Keeping retired breeders is a MUST. Keeping accurate health records is a MUST. 

As for platinum rats being "weaker":
Platinum is created by mink+blue or RED+blue. It's been said that blue rats are prone to bleeding issues (hemophilia). It's also been said that RED rats are prone to the same problems. This has also been known to be common in some lines more so than others, and recently the problem showed up in a line of Russian blue. This means it isn't necessarily the colors, but might be some specific genotype, possibly linked to the color or else just in the line, that's been passed on. Since other lines don't have this problem, it can be bred away from or bred out. If a line has this problem, they are likely going to be "weakened" otherwise. Blood is a very vital body fluid, and if something is wrong with the blood, there's going to be something wrong with the rest of the animal. If this problem exists in the line, it is best to end the line and start with one that does NOT have the problem, rather than to try to work with it and possibly create numerous animals that are going suffer from a health issue. Since there ARE lines out there that don't have these issues, there is no reason to try to work with it.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> I appriciate your input Sorraia, but you say scrap the entire line because one girl had a tumor that is most likely nothing to do with genetics (which you even said yourself). The line I use has been cancer free for 6 generations on the dams side and 8 on the sires (there was one case of a lump but it wasnt cancer and the doe was very old!) - even the Vet says its extremly unlikely to be genetic and more likely something to do with her hormones as she was at the age where she was just starting to produce them - but this is also not genetic or color related. And of course we had a biopsy of the lump done!


You misunderstand. It isn't because of one rat getting a tumor, it is because a BABY got a tumor. BABIES are NOT supposed to get tumors. This rat in question that you own, according to the information you posted, was only 4.5 WEEKS of age when she first developed the tumor. That is NOT normal, that is exceptional, in a very very bad way. If a rat develops a tumor at 2 years of age... not good, but not the end of the world. A 4.5 week old baby developing a tumor, that IS the end of the world. It doesn't matter if other tumors have shown up or not, that's fire that should not be played with.

Hormones CAN be genetic. While the tumors themselves may not necessarily be genetic, what causes them can be. A certain line of rat may be known for "crazy hormones" at a certain age, and these "crazy hormones" cause tumors. The tumors themselves aren't directly genetic, but the hormonal condition is, and it's that hormonal condition that causes the tumors. Why play with this kind of fire?



> I wouldnt go as far to say tumors are expected on older rats, they are completely random and can pop up for a number of different factors at ANY age. EVERY rat carries cancer, and it doesnt always take much to set it off.


Tumors "can" happen at any age, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't happen at all. They do happen, but they shouldn't. When they do happen, it should be in older rats, not babies. It doesn't matter if "every" rat carries cancer (and I really don't believe that), not every rat is going to develop cancer, and not every tumor is cancer. And while any number of things can set it off, breeders should not be encouraging tumors that are set off by every little thing.

Do you know why the chance of tumor increases with age? It has to do with biology. As we grow, our cells divide and multiple. The older we get, the more division has occurred. With every division there is a chance of an error occurring. These kinds of errors are what can cause tumor growth. The chance increases with age because with age our bodies become less efficient. THIS is why tumors are "expected" in older animals, and should NOT occur normally in younger animals.



> But please do tell me Sorraia, have you ever had a tumor pop up in your lines. Did you immedietly stop your line and every related rat. Do you practise what you preach? I doubt it. According to your signature you focus on two main colors. So my guess is that you linebreed too? If I thought for any reason this was genetic I would stop the line as I hold myself responsible for the welfare of every baby I produce. Finacially also!


You are misconstruing what I am saying. As far as do I practice what I preach? You betcha. If I had a 4.5 week old BABY develop a tumor, you bet your last dollar I would end the line. Any litters on the ground from that line would be spayed/neutered before pet placement, and/or kept. In fact, I HAVE don this before, about 5 years ago.

As for your comment about linebreeding - you also completely misunderstand what linebreeding is all about. The ONLY way to HAVE a "line" is to inbreed. Outcrossing does NOT make a line. Also, linebreeding/inbreeding does not make sickly animals, IF done properly. It takes a lot of work to be done properly, and most people out there don't know how to do it properly. Constant outcrossing doesn't "fix" problems, it only covers them up and spreads them more. When a problem shows up, you have no idea where it came from or how widespread it is, line/inbreeding allows you to not only identify where the problem came from, but how widespread it is too, thus allowing you to effectively select against it. The biggest reason pet store rats are unhealthy and short-lived isn't because they are line/inbred (and not all pet store rats are, you really have no idea WHAT kind of breeding they have, since they are not tracked), it is because they are randomly bred. Random breeding means anything and everything is going to be passed on and perpetuated.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Dont forget vets are always 'nice' ...if he truely had the animals best interests at heart he would suggest another vet.

Vets are NOT always nice, I have dealt with some not so nice vets. The Armstrong clinic works with all animals, cats, dogs, horses, cows, pigs. They are well respected in the community for their work. there are NOT ENOUGH vets in this area even willing to touch a rat let along operate on them. I was told by receptionist after receptionists that sure they could do the spay but they didn't want to. I was even laughed at a few times. I think a vet calling me back and asking me more questions about what was needed was great. He said he has put rats under before for simpler procedures and he would need to get more information but I got a feeling 10X better from him then many of the vets who said they could do it. He seemed sincerely interested. I do not believe it had anything to do with the money, the rate he quoted was completely in line with tri-lake and in fact lower then most clinics. Just because a vet doesn't specialize in a certain animal doesn't mean they can not do it. I am sure many members started with a vet who knew little about rats but is not a great rat vet


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Oh, I should add I didn't mean they do one surgery a month I meant on average they do 1 a month between the two vets who will see rats. Seems like I worded that one pretty badly.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

I've not been reading any of this and I don't think i wwas somebody that slammed you. I did contact you to ask why you were breeding and I don't personally think you have valid reasons, but if you are breeding for more healthy rats in your area, it is better than people going to pet shops so nobody can really tell you that it's a bad thing to do so. Also I do still believe it was genetic.... of course they all may carry it, but only some will get tumours. A rat matures sexually at 5/6 weeks old and I don't think hormone imbalance would have caused this unless she had something like pyometra which you know she doesn't :/


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

_I am trying to be non-judgemental in every aspect here._

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your girl. That's a terrible thing for her to go through and I feel bad for the poor thing. How can she expect to live a full and enjoyable life if her pancreas is not functioning properly? Are there any changes you need to make for her to adjust?

Secondly, I know that this forum does not condone or discuss any kind of intentional breeding whatsoever, so I'm very surprised to see this thread here with you posting so openly that you do in fact breed. There are plenty of other forums tolerant of intentional breeders whether for hobby/pleasure/professional or whatnot. I think breeding would be best discussed there.

The only reason I question your breeding program is simply because you do not seem as informed as you should be for doing what you do. It shouldn't take a baby rat developing a cancerous tumor to take the time to research and learn more about genetics. Sorraia is a VERY respected memeber or the rat community and extremely knowledgeable. I would take her advice as more than just a simple opinion. If you have the rats best interest in mind, you will weigh your decisions on their health and their temperment. If two of your rats mated to produce a baby with a compromised and poorly functioning pancreas, it could very well happen again. Whether or not a cancerous tumor results from that is upto chance. That's definitely not a chance most established and well respected breeders would ever take.

But regardless, we don't condone breeding here so I wish your baby luck and I hope you put a lot of thought into whatever decision you come to.


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## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

Guys---please be sure to keep this civil. This site isn't a contest about "who knows more" or who's the "smartest"...this site is NOT meant to condone or promote intentional breeding...no matter who is right or wrong in this situation. It is to be used to get information and have productive conversations to help our pet rats. I do NOT want this to get out of hand and create a big issue. And I have a feeling it could potentially head in that direction. If it gets much more out of hand--I'm going to lock this thread.

Sorry guys--I just don't like the way this is heading.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

This may seem like an obvious question but with Hope having gone through what she did, how come you adopted her out still? I'm just curious. I'd have thought she would have stayed with you is all.


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

ema-leigh said:


> Well you know, I'll go with the test results... seen as they are you know.. scientifically correct. Hope is getting spayed and wont ever be bred from. But there is nothing wrong with the line, the tests show shes in textbook health otherwise.


OHHH, I misread. Thought you said she hadn't had test results..... I was wondering how you knew about hormone imbalance. I see, sorry.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Debbie has an updated version available on her website: http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html
she has added this in "The soybean meal is not as beneficial for male rats, and it looks like now that low-protein blocks (14% protein) are better for older males. " People who have done research into nutrition will back up that lower protein seems to have a lot of positive effects for rats and this simply wasn't known before. Even at a younger age then though rats benefit from lower amounts of protein

Nephritis: It is common to feed rats and mice excessive amounts of protein, particularly during the maintenance phase. Whilst animals are generally well able to degrade surplus protein, to detoxify the metabolites produced and excrete them, over a period of time this process can lead to kidney damage (referred to as chronic nephritis, nephropathy and several other synonyms). This disease can be recognised as early as 3-6 months of age, progressively developing in severity with increasing proteinuria, and it can lead to death in an old animal. 
Feeding diets containing 17-20% for breeding and 13-14% for maintenance will minimise the risk of nephritis. There are additional benefits from feeding a low protein diet, since there are observations that high protein intake, particularly in early adult life, can lead to an increased risk of neoplasms. (British Small Animal Veterinary Association (B.S.A.V.A) - Manual of Companion Animal Nutrition & Feeding.)

While there are SOME good dog foods that can be fed to rats most people prefer to stick with a rodent block that has been formulated with a rats needs in mind. A lot of dog foods while having the right protein level are too high in fat for your rats. Mazuri does make a formula of block that is lower in protein. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head though

edit: I found some more links for you to read over on diet.

http://www.jorats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4502 Jorats vet is Dr. Munn a VERY VERY respected rat vet in the exotics world. Although TriLake is good Dr. Munn has A LOT o f experience treating A LOT of rats. 
http://www.jorats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2469


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Speaking as a *BIOLOGIST*....

The pancreas does not produce sex hormones. The pancreas is involved in the secretion of digestive enzymes. A malfunction, dysfunction, disorder, or misformation of the pancreas is NOT going to cause an animal to go into early sexual maturation. One enzyme looked at in blood work, such as that done for cats and dogs, to determine a problem with the pancreas is amylase. Physical symptoms that are looked for are weight loss, lethargy, dehydration, and lack of appetite. A poorly functioning pancreas can also cause diabetes, has to do with the other insulin. Several other hormones are secreted by the pancreas, all of these have to do with digestion.

Spaying a rat is not going to affect the pancreas. Spaying removes the sex organs: uterus and ovaries. These sex organs are responsible for the secretion of sex hormones. These sex organs are also responsible for sexual maturation. 

Removal of the sex organs is not going to affect the pancreas. Likewise, the pancreas does not affect sexual maturity.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

I think what Sorraia was trying to get at was a mis-formed pancreas is not going to cause any problems with sexual hormones. What a mis-formed pancreas will do is cause digestive issues and insulin issues which would be really bad and the rat could potentially develop diabetes if it can't develop enough insulin on its own. Since estrogen testing is hard enough to do with people because scientists don't have a baseline for "normal" (everyone is different) I find it very hard to believe your doctor was able to test for this. It more likely sounds like she guessed it was an estrogen fueled tumor


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> She never sexually matured early. She was 4.5 weeks old when her body started producing the hormones. Her spay will greatly reduce the chances of it happening again, but I do know its not 100$ guarenteed. Were doing it anyway. Hopes in great health, shes with me tonight





ema-leigh said:


> When we got the resuts the we discovered everything was great, except her pancreas. The part of it that controls how much hormone is released was not formed properly. So this in turn led to too much hormones being produced in her body when she was starting to sexualy mature, which in turn led to the tumor.


Your information is at least somewhat inaccurate. My point is, if her pancreas is not formed properly, it is not going to affect the hormones that are produced during sexual maturity. The pancreas has nothing to do with the hormones responsible for sexual maturity. 

If this tumor was caused by her pancreas secreting too much hormone, spaying her is NOT going to help. 

If this tumor was caused by sex hormones released during sexual maturity, spaying might help, but this is NOT going to be determined by looking at her pancreas.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

They are not misformed. 

The part that controls how much is released let out way too much. Hopes tumor hasnt come back, so I think Dr Linda removed every last bit Fingers crossed.

If a pancreas is releasing too many hormones then your rat is also going to be diabetic from too much insulin floating around and that would be really concerning to me as diabetes has been found to have genetic links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas
The pancreas is a gland organ in the digestive and endocrine system of vertebrates. It is both an endocrine gland producing several important hormones, including insulin, glucagon, and somatostatin, as well as an exocrine gland, secreting pancreatic juice containing digestive enzymes that pass to the small intestine. These enzymes help in the further breakdown of the carbohydrates, protein, and fat in the chyme.

<i>And of course we had a biopsy of the lump done!</i>
May I ask what the biopsy results were?


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Was it benign or malignant?


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Glad shes doing well adn i hope she recovers quickly.


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