# Keeping it in the family?....



## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi all,

Ive recently decided that when i get into rats again, that i want a group
of large adult males... now i need to know.

Is it better to get all brothers..like related to each other so they are nicer
to each other, and less of strangers>?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

It is best to get a pair or group that's been held together, then you won't have to introduce them to others. Beyond the twins, none of my rats are related and they get on fine.

I don't think you ought to just plan on 'big' boys, though... I've one boy who's quite tiny.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Oh ok, i always just thought boys go bigger, thats all, if one or two was 
smallish, i wouldnt knock them back..

I just want a few so they can play, im more into watching them do their
thing, than hold them all the time.

How do you tell if ones a twin? i thought they had heaps of babies anyways
or do the markins look the same


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorry about all the questions, im not that good at searching the engines.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

If you wanna watch rats do their thing I'd get girls, boys are more likely to sleep.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Well, just leaving a rat in the cage all the time is no life for it, would you give them free-range time?

Of my boys five were over one pound and one is barely half. He's a tiny thing, but a normal size for a boy, nonetheless. You don't want them too squishy or they have health issues.

The boys (Puck and Jack) aren't actually twins. They're cousins. But I'm the only one who can tell them apart, so unless we're talking personalities, they're twins.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Well, Kays comment has me re thinking, i guess my old male did
sleep lots.. but i always thought it was because he didnt have any
buds to play with!! guess i was wrong..

Fore,
Im not sure about free range, i would be worried about them getting away..
my home isnt rat proof, i have funny windows...

So i was thinking making a very complex maze/cage, would keep them busy and happy for themselves... 

Maybe even tunnels between other cages.. i dont know.. still planning


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

still have to have them out a lot... maybe make a a room rat proof.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> still have to have them out a lot... maybe make a a room rat proof.


I don't think i want rat poo on the floor, hardly hygienic!


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I have carpet in all rooms, but bathrom of course..


Maybe a out doors aviary?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Better chance for mites and fleas out of doors.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

geebus said:


> KayRatz said:
> 
> 
> > still have to have them out a lot... maybe make a a room rat proof.
> ...


I pick up after them.


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## SweetLittleDelilah (May 13, 2008)

When it comes to pets, it doesn't matter what YOU WANT.
It's what THEY NEED that comes before all else.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

invest in a vacuum. rat poop is no worse then what you track in on your feet. you can also make a play pen out of malimite boards or even enough cardboard. the other option of course is rat proofing the bathroom and letting them play there. bathroom floors wipe up easy. but then, unless you have a large bathroom, you won't be able to lay down with them and be on the receiving end of a rat pile and there's nothing better then that. my favorite place for out time is on my bed with the pillows and blanket bunched up and me sprawled on the bed. they play in the blanket, tunnel and sleep on the pillows and rat pile on me. its great! i just recently went up in numbers to 13 and though i will not be able to take zen out with the girls i can't wait to get under a pile of 12 little rat munchins! just so long as ink doesn't decide my nails are too long anyway.... she does not give even manicures... :? :lol:


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

We let the boys play in the bathtub/bathroom, the dining room table, or the bed for 'free range' since we lost the third bedroom, which was free-range central.

The latter is put through the wash after, the two former are scrubbed with disinfectant.


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## lovinmyworm (Feb 18, 2008)

If you can't allow them out of the cage for a minimum of 1 hour a day for free range rats are NOT the animal for you! If you want to just watch something play for awhile get mice or gerbils. Rats need their human interaction and free range time just as much as they need friends, food, water, ect.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I rent, so im pretty concerned about rat poos getting stuck in the 
carpet, i could be kicked out, just got to keep things under control
need to plan it all before i get them, which is were im at now.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

lovinmyworm said:


> If you can't allow them out of the cage for a minimum of 1 hour a day for free range rats are NOT the animal for you! If you want to just watch something play for awhile get mice or gerbils. Rats need their human interaction and free range time just as much as they need friends, food, water, ect.



Do they really need to get out so much, i mean im willing to go to extreme measures with the enclosure... ive been looking at some of the stuff they have for ferrets.. ive seen some seriously amazing rodent homes.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Do you need to leave the house periodically?

And even then, just to get out to be socialized with people is important!


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Forensic said:


> Do you need to leave the house periodically?
> 
> And even then, just to get out to be socialized with people is important!



Yes, i leave the house for work....

With the socialized with humans bit, is that to keep them tame?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Um yes. You'd like them to be happy to let you pick them up, wouldn't you? So you can pet them and such?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Forensic said:


> Um yes. You'd like them to be happy to let you pick them up, wouldn't you? So you can pet them and such?


Well yes, i dont want to be bitten naturally, but i mean... my old rat boy
never lost his tameness, and i didnt interact with it much.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Sounds like a pretty lonely life for a rat.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Forensic said:


> Sounds like a pretty lonely life for a rat.



Well, i would like to retire, but its not an option, i guess my housemates
will be home when im not (i do some shiftwork).. so maybe they will talk
to them a bit while im out...

Was kinda hoping they would "do their own thing"


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

If you want a pet just to watch why not get fish?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Forensic said:


> If you want a pet just to watch why not get fish?



I have fish....

Dont get me wrong, ill play with them a bit.... but i like watching animals
do what they do naturally, and i feel a little unnatural playing with rats..
i think its more interesting observing their ratty ways.

Would have the TV on help?
Or could they share a cage with another animal for stimulation


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I don't know if they'd much notice the TV... but as a background noise, maybe...

And rats are predators... they will likely attack most any other species if it's put in their cage. This isn't always true, but it's been true often enough that it's fair warning.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

yeah, fair enough, i didn't actually think it would be possible for them to share 
a cage, but just puttng it out there


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

geebus said:


> Dont get me wrong, ill play with them a bit.... but i like watching animals
> do what they do naturally, and i feel a little unnatural playing with rats..
> i think its more interesting observing their ratty ways.


To be fair, if that's what you like, keeping a bunch of rats primarily in their cage all the time is probably going to be the most unnatural thing they are ever going to do. You will have to make sure you have a very large cage to keep them in also.

Personally, if you're not going to be able to give them at least 1 hour outside the cage a day ... go for another type of pet that doesn't depend on interraction so much.


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## xampx (Dec 31, 2006)

If I dont get my rats out, all they do is stare at me and climb the front of the cage trying to get out. Thats not really what they would do in the wild. 

Mine get to come out around 3 hours on most days, even more on weekends. I get home and I open the cage door and I don't close them back in again until I go to bed. They also come out for half an hour whilst I make and eat breakfast with them.

If you only plan on playing with them 'a bit' then they arent for you. Rats need constant stimulation. They love to spend time with people and if you put 2, 3, 4 or more rats in a cage constantly they will be more likely to start getting bored and fighting, or cleaning each other so hard that their hair comes out, or getting really really fat and ill.

They will be as clean as you keep them. My rats have only ever peed and pooped on the floor maybe 3 times since they came to live with me and I clean it up straight away. Rats scent mark too, which is pretty much a long dribble of pee on most things they walk over (you, the floor, the couch - if you let them out that is) 

I didnt read the part about you thinking it was un-natural to play with them until just now. They really aren't for you, get a hamster.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

rats are very social and if you really want to watch them be natural rats then you need to become part of their family. they live in families in the wild too and will accept humans as part of their extended ratty family. i'll get groomed and marked, and they will come to me for groomings (petting) too. they play with me and when i have not been where i was supposed to be i have even been reprimanded. i am part of their ratty family and being accepted like i have gotten to know them a lot better then if i was to just watch them sleep and eat in the cage. interaction is part of having rats as pets. the minimum time requirement is 1 hour a day. this can add up throughout the day but taking 1 hour to just play and love and be loved by a day is good for your own health too. it reduces stress levels which benefits all sorts of bodily systems. 

however, like the others have said, if you do not feel comfortable playing with them then this is not the right pet for you. will not see them being natural pet rats if you do not interact with them. they are too social a creature to just be watched from a distance, for their own mental and emotional health they need that interaction just as much as they need food, water and a clean environment.


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## clarry (May 19, 2008)

I have to agree. I'm no expert but especially if you were planning on getting boys. My boys are so lazy, they won't just entertain themselves in the cage, no matter what I put in their with them they get bored and beg to come out. I hate watching them crawling up the cage and looking out of the doors when I cant let them out at the time, like if they wake up with me in the mornings and hear me getting ready, they usually want to be with me (they always get AT LEAST an hour, usually from about 7 till whenever i go to bed) and I find them so active in the evening when they are with me. They rely on me to make things fun, even when they have free range time if i set up tubes and stuff and try to get them to do things they wont do it unless I'm there on the floor with them, and once they get bored they will come to me for something new  So to be honest, you wouldnt get to watch much because whatever I put in the cage, they just look at. You can build mazes etc but personally I think after a while it would all bore them and they would much rather sit with you, watching tele and stealing your dinner and such. If you are worried about the carpet, get some cheap rugs or throws and set up a sort of pen with cardboard that they can't go out of and sit in it with them. My front room isnt rat proofed, we have expensive sofa's and wooden cupboards but we have managed to keep them within their designated area (most of the front room) by keeping an eye and telling them 'NO' if they go to far and putting pillows in front of the sofas.


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## 2boysloose (Jun 27, 2008)

I didn't get brothers, but don't take my advice because they fought so furiously, they are now in different cages.


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

xampx said:


> If I dont get my rats out, all they do is stare at me and climb the front of the cage trying to get out. Thats not really what they would do in the wild.


LoL, mine too! Good point...

Geebus, I mean this in a totally constructive way...but it sounds like maybe you should rethink getting rats?

Or reconsider what you're willing to invest in them.

Think of them more like little dogs, and I think it will give you a better idea of how much time and attention they will need from you. If you can't give them that, that doesn't make you a bad person, it just means that you're not ready right now in your life for a committment like this.

I _am_ really glad to see that you're doing your research and asking so many good questions.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

xampx said:


> I didnt read the part about you thinking it was un-natural to play with them until just now. They really aren't for you, get a hamster.


We cant have hamsters in Australia.  

Rats are totally for me, or should i say for themselves..

I understand they be social, but humans are a natural predator
of rats traditionally... domestic or not, i dont think they will have
a lesser quality of life with me than with someone who constantly
takes them out.

If i get babies, i mean i could get all males from the same litter 
or something... and ill raise them in their "band of brothers"


Ive got some pretty wild ideas about providing stimulation for them..
when im not home and that, should work out ok.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

ledzepgirl16 said:


> xampx said:
> 
> 
> > If I dont get my rats out, all they do is stare at me and climb the front of the cage trying to get out. Thats not really what they would do in the wild.
> ...



Thanks for your post, you got your message across in a nice polite manner
i thank you for taking to time to share your opinion in such a nice manner.

Your dog analogy is a good one, i have a dog here actually so that hits
home so to speak... if everyone was as considerate when writting as you
when writting a post (including myself i must concede) this forum would be
a much more positive place.


When you say "invest" do you mean time wise, as in interaction time..?


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## clarry (May 19, 2008)

Sorry if I am speaking out of turn but people arent here to sugar coat everything they say in a positive manner, they are simply worried about the rats, not peoples feelings and whether it comes out as positive. Of course this is not an attack against ledzepgirl I am merely pointing out why some people dont put such a positive spin on everything.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

geebus said:


> I understand they be social, but humans are a natural predatorof rats traditionally... domestic or not, i dont think they will have
> a lesser quality of life with me than with someone who constantly
> takes them out.


Domestic rats very quickly include their human companions as one of their mischief. This does not lead to a diminishment of their quality of life .. in fact it adds to it. Rats by nature are curious little critters and love nothing more than running around and getting into trouble. By placing yourself in the middle of this .. you thereby become their interractive jungle-gym which they love to pieces.

Consider it this way .. humans are social creatures. But keeping, say, 6 people in a house together for the whole of their lives .. it does no good at all. They will become lazy and even UNsocial eventually. I don't think it's any different to rats. In fact, the most fun I actually get from the rats (and the times that it appears that they enjoy most) are while running around playing with me.

Why else do you think every good source on rat care encourages interraction with them on a daily basis? Obviously because it's a proven fact that this increases their quality of life rather then takes from it.

Just some points for you to consider

If you want some observable animals .. go for something low key. A colony of mice will usually do just fine on their own as they don't depend on their human counterparts quite as much.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

clarry said:


> Sorry if I am speaking out of turn but people arent here to sugar coat everything they say in a positive manner, they are simply worried about the rats, not peoples feelings and whether it comes out as positive. Of course this is not an attack against ledzepgirl I am merely pointing out why some people dont put such a positive spin on everything.


Well you know what they say about honey & vinegar..

I don't want anything sugar coated, i want peoples opinions
even if they contradict my possible intentions... it can be 
conveyed in a nice manner and still get the very same message 
across to the reader.. as seen my ledzep..

To be honest, i was getting mildly ticked off at people talking down
to me or being plain rude, it was refreshing to read ledzeps post.

Driving me away from the forum isn't a productive way to help me
with my future rats, i mean like im here wanting information before
i jump in, im taking everything on board, i wouldn't ask if i didn't 
want to know.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Ration1802 said:


> Why else do you think every good source on rat care encourages interraction with them on a daily basis? Obviously because it's a proven fact that this increases their quality of life rather then takes from it.


To be honest i strongly suspect that anthropomorphizing is coming into
play with a lot of peoples concepts of animal husbandry in general.. not
talking just rodents here.

But im fully in understanding of the social habits of wild rats, and suspect
its carried onto domestic rats (doesn't take much to domesticate a species
by definition)..

Your suggestion of mice instead of rats, is a fair call, except i don't want
mice, and ive had a rat, and well, i liked it... i gave it a nice life, it was left to live
as a rat, and i didn't observe any detrimental consequence because of this.

Ive been ringing around and found someone who is able to supply me with
a few brother rats for when im ready (they always have them ready).

So at least ive made some contacts in the rat breeding world for a supplier.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

geebus said:


> Your suggestion of mice instead of rats, is a fair call, except i don't want mice, and ive had a rat, and well, i liked it... i gave it a nice life, it was left to liveas a rat, and i didn't observe any detrimental consequence because of this.


This in not intended in an argumentative way .. I am merely curious to know your opinion.

You have had one rat that you left to it's own devices pretty much. How can you tell whether there were detrimental consequences if you've never experienced a rat who has a good social relationship with other rats and it's human? Surely you have nothing to compare it to? Your one rat is your 'norm'.

I am honestly trying to understand where you are coming from. It's very hard when I see my rats begging for my attention the second I so much as look at the cage. Even my wild rat enjoys my company .. so I don't think domestication has as much to do with it as much as trust in an individual. Wild or not .. rats aren't meant to be caged .. so that in itself is purely unnatural?


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

Ration1802 said:


> Wild or not .. rats aren't meant to be caged .. so that in itself is purely unnatural


<edited to remove the question mark because this statement is dead on.. not questionable>


touche'


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I should of been more clear, my mistake.
My single rat, kept in only one manner, isn't proof of anything at all
and doesn't contribute any evidence for minimal human contact and
the effect this has on domestic pet rats.

All i was trying to express was that my rat behaved like a rat it
didn't drop dead because i didn't pat it enough... it was living 
like a rat, not much different than the ones i see at the train station.

I *totally* agree with you, keeping rats (animals in general)
in cages isn't natural.. 

Further more keeping pets in itself is a very selfish act
when you think about it.... our own selfish desires dictate the lives
of animals we keep... we own them...... if you "owned" people
you would be labeled a monster, if you own animals your more 
likely to be labeled an animal lover.

Not to get too off topic here (although its bit late for that now :? )
there is something that both domestic and non domestic animals
of the same species always share, thats a desire to breed in fact
its actually their greatest desire, their reason for living at all..
yet a lot of people (myself very much included) inhibit this chance
for our pets to pass on their genetic material for something as petty
as our own personal convenience.


Oh... and im not meaning any of this in a argumentative manner either
so hopefully ive managed to articulate myself correctly for a change


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

geebus said:


> there is something that both domestic and non domestic animals
> of the same species always share, thats a desire to breed in fact
> its actually their greatest desire, their reason for living at all..
> yet a lot of people (myself very much included) inhibit this chance
> ...


I how many times have you been out in public & seen the spawn of the human animals that are compelled to breed & thought to yourself... there is something to that "eating your young thing" 

Just because we (or animals) can breed, doesn't mean we (they) should. The population explosion that has happened in the last 100 years is clearly showing up & in extremely horrific ways... increased prices in our stores & famine in many rural regions of the world. 

We are a domesticated species so to speak & just like any domesticated species, one that has been removed or is protected from the forces of natural selection, & left to its own unchecked, it will propagate to unmanageable numbers.

Ok, people aren't going to place limits on the number of children they should have or make rules about who should have children & who shouldn't (but by god there are some idiots out there that should not breed) so as for our domesticated pets there should be certain limits placed on this because it is too easy to obtain a pet & often proper education & appropriate responsibility is not a factor. People get pets on impulse most often & then they become disposable when they lose interest or circumstances change so that they can no longer keep them or care for them. Add another unwanted pet to the fantastic numbers that already exist.

What can be done about this.... oh heck who knows... its a darn shame the trait of common sense can't be breed into the human population as a whole.


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## ledzepgirl16 (Oct 29, 2007)

geebus said:


> ledzepgirl16 said:
> 
> 
> > xampx said:
> ...


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I guess if they are including a person into their "rat pack".. just like our
dog here is a part of our "human pack" that makes enough sense to me
then, i think maybe i was put off when people say rats need human contact
which is something that i don't agree with, but.... that said ,if a rat is taking
you into its "rat pack" its a bit different, all the same thing just a matter
of perspective.

Ive decided for now i will "start" with a couple of mice like people have
suggested, and see how that goes - then work my way towards still
getting rats, but not rush into rats, cut my teeth on mice for a while and
see how things pan out.

Ive got three female rats on hold from a local pet store - they are older
females and have stopped breeding according to the pet store.. they 
were going to put them in the freezer (alive no less).. she is giving me 
one of her little breeding cages for short term housing for them...
they are all sisters from the same litter she tells me which is neat.

Ive got some food and a water bottle already, so now just to pick the
rest up tomorrow. 
She said she would take them back if i change my mind, which i know
people will think is bad, but really...... i don't think it is, if i don't take them
they WILL be frozen alive thats certain 



When i get them tomorrow ill post some photos with my house mates help!


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

if you do not feel comfortable in completely caring for them yet you could always try to find them a good home to go to instead. i agree the freezer is not a good place to end up. but neither is being cooped in a cage all day long. if i remember right you are one of the aussies of this forum? i haven't seen our other reg aussie in a while... and i thin you were looking for rescues in your area as well and were unsuccessful... quite teh pickle... 

my suggestions in trying to find help in your area for placement of these girls would be to call every rescue in the phonebook in your area and ask about a rat rescue being somewhere handy. even if they say no that does not mean there isn't onw. call all the vets in the phonebook as well and ask the same thing. even if the rescue isn't handy if you can contact them and ask for advice and for them to post them on whatever marketing system they are using you could act as a sponser foster until they found good homes. 


the alternative of course is you to keep them for yourself (though i don't know if this is what you want as you said in just your last post you were going to start with mice nad work your way up). you will still need to contact and find a rat vet. make sure you have adequate food for them and housing enough for 3 as well as toys to entertain them. you will also need to interact with them a lot. having spent all their life breeding in a pet store and having their babies taken from them before they were ready is going to have an effect on their trust levels with humans. the only way to get over this is to continuously and repeatedly show them you are good and you will not harm them. this means a lot of handling, a lot of patience and a lot of persistance.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi,

Yes, i was looking for a rat pound or something like that, with not too much
luck for something close enough for me to visit.

We have a council (local gov) run pound, but it doesn't deal with the more
"unusual" animals at all, its strictly dog/cat (and sometimes small farm
animals im told).

I told them if a few rats might come in i might be interested, but they told
me in the 20 yrs its been open they've never had any rats, closest was a 
few ferrets :lol: but they reminded me they're illegal in this state 

I feel pretty comfortable looking after the mice (ive had and bred mice 
before as a kid).. i don't really want to return the mice to the petshop
to be honest... its not that i have a problem with them being killed for
reptiles foods etc... what i didn't like was the inhumane method of dispatch
i tried to explain to the lady (*******) that its unethical to freeze mammals
as, contrary to common opinion, it doesn't put them to sleep at all .. in fact
its a pain beyond words, because of the explosion of cells during the freezing
process ...etc.. it would of been unrealistic to suggest gassing them.. 
(and i don't consider it to be all that humane, due to the difficulty in applying 
the correct amount of gas), i suggested fast blunt trauma or cervical dislocation..

Anyways, if it comes to be not being able or for what ever reason 
needing them to be re-housed, i will sure to take your suggestion of
calling up the local vet clinic (something i hadn't considered good idea)
.. Or perhaps considering donating them to the local primary school
teacher for her 5th grade class...... she has expressed interest in
getting some animals for her students to teach them about looking
after animals.. they would get a nice 4ft fish tank that way.

What do people think of that idea?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Also i have made a mix of food for them, with special rat pellets.. made 
for rats and mice.. and also some dry dog food and a hand full of mix
bird seeds all mixed together... just as their staple, and add extra little
snacks also, when i learn whats good for them and whats not....
im pretty sure cheese is a "no-no" etc...


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

geebus said:


> Also i have made a mix of food for them, with special rat pellets.. made
> for rats and mice.. and also some dry dog food and a hand full of mix
> bird seeds all mixed together... just as their staple, and add extra little
> snacks also, when i learn whats good for them and whats not....
> im pretty sure cheese is a "no-no" etc...


Just use lab blocks as their staple. Most dog food is crap unless it's really high quality, and only certain dog foods can be used for rats anyhow. Not to mention that the bird seed is just, well, no good... and the "rat pellets" I'm sure aren't either.

Lab blocks are the perfect staple diet, depending on which brand you get.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Randi said:


> Just use lab blocks as their staple. Most dog food is crap unless it's really high quality, and only certain dog foods can be used for rats anyhow. Not to mention that the bird seed is just, well, no good... and the "rat pellets" I'm sure aren't either.
> 
> Lab blocks are the perfect staple diet, depending on which brand you get.


I think these are lab blocks things, except not block shaped, but pellet shaped.

Barsonic or something like that, i dont recall the brand exactly.


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

They'd need to have the nutrients that lab blocks have, though... you'd need to look at the ingredients and compare to a high-quality lab block to know.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Randi said:


> They'd need to have the nutrients that lab blocks have, though... you'd need to look at the ingredients and compare to a high-quality lab block to know.



These are the very same thing, they might even be better than 
what you feed :lol:

Ok, the brand is "barastoc rat and mice cubes" they even some 
something in them thats meant to reduce odor or something.



I know of a university that uses them, so i would say they would
be of the highest quality available .. :wink:


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## Randi (May 25, 2008)

Fair enough, I'll respectfully disagree.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Randi said:


> Fair enough, I'll respectfully disagree.



Hi Randi.

So you know the brand i mentioned?

I had the break down written down, but ive turfed it out.


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