# Aggressive rat (would it be worth neutering??) problem



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Hello!

I have a new rat that ive added the family. He is a 1 year old male, dumbo and hes also pretty aggressive..towards other rats and towards humans. Apparently, his last owner said that he actually killed his cage mate (which concerns me alot ...how am I ever going to allow him to live with my other two boys? : ( ). I have him in his own tank right now but the plan was to eventually move him into my boy's cage (its a large cage) with my two other boys (they are very sweet and loving). The problem though is his aggression.

When I pet him, he puffs up and huffs at me (although he hasnt made any biting moves yet, but im sure he probably would, especially once i try picking him up).

Im not sure if I should even try any immersion methods on him or...if I should just schedule for a neutering? He is also already a year old and as rats only live 2-3 years is it too late to neuter him? We've only had him a couple days but im not sure if I should invest the time in immersion methods or simply spend the $$ and neuter him : /

What should I do?

PS: also hes much bigger than my boys so im sure that he could harm them pretty easily


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Neutering does not always solve the problem. Before resorting to that you might want to try a "forced" immersion so to say. I would get out some gloves/oven mitts, a hoodie or other such thick material and then some sweatpants or other thick pants and pick him up with the gloves and move him to the immersion area. The longer you wait the more your rat is going to feel that he can puff up and be aggressive and make you go away. It's going to be very hard work to fix him if he's this aggressive from what I understand and he may never want to be with other rats. But, before you can even consider introducing your other rats, you need to get this issue with his aggression worked out and secure your role as the alpha. I would read over the Immersion thread and I believe it is option three on the actual immersion directions that you will be working on and fixing. May I ask how long you have had him?


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

We have only had him a couple days still. I was letting him settle in his spot for a few days before I really tried anything with him yet, but I was researching online and came up with a lot of neutering answers to these sort of issues. If we did neuter him it wouldnt be for a few weeks so I can save up for it. Bahhhhhhh. Im just concerned most of my other two boys safety..they are big lovable wussies (i raised them as babies) and I dont want them getting hurt!


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

In that case during the time you're gathering money for a neuter I would start working on immersion. Technically immersion is supposed to be done right when you get them and I did it with my rats and it worked wonders within the first hour. Of course, my rats were fairly friendly to begin with so I don't have any experience with aggressive ratties. I wouldn't even consider putting this male in with your others until you can work with his aggression a lot. That means some really rigorous immersion in which I would almost suggest that you expect to get bitten and you should therefore wear something thick and durable enough to deal with it. He seems like a pretty hard case... :I


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you so much for your input! I will definitely still try it. Yea haha, Im going to most definitely wear some gear lol I know that I probably shouldnt have got him but I just felt drawn to him for some reason, poor guy! He does look sweet, and hes not shy about sniffing me and listening to me when I talk to him (very curious guy!), but as soon as I touch him he haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaates me.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

He probably is a very sweet little guy that just happened to have a bad owner in the past that didn't socialize him/abused him. If he's not afraid of you then I would say he's definitely salvageable with some time and effort put in. I wish you the best of luck and please don't be afraid to ask more questions!


----------



## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Also, just to chime in - it isn't too late to neuter him. At 1 years old he should do absolutely fine with surgery and recovery. If the immersion does not work, I would definitely find a suitable vet to neuter the rat.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Oh, yes. Very sorry, I didn't mean to say that neutering is not an option, I just didn't want you to put all of your hope into curing him that way. :3


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh I know what you meant!! Actually I just spent an hour with him. I just decided to try it right now! I burrowed my moms work gloves and got into jeans/sweat shirt and put him on the bed with me (along with a towel). Surprisingly though, He didnt try to bite me at all!! But what concerns me was his SCREAMING. 

I would barely touch him (like on his back) and he would SCREAM as if in immense pain. He would roll on his back and I would stroke his belly gently and he would wimper. I picked him up several times (he would scream) I would cuddle him and stroke him (lots of wimpering). I gave him little breaks and he would lay down infront of me and stare at me...but as soon as I would try to reach for him to pet him (screaming).

But through all of this he never even tried to bite. Eventually I took of the gloves and continued the stroking/picking up and tried to calm him and make him see im not hurting him. He isn't screaming in agony as much but definitely squeaking and wimpering. He rolls over and gets on his back (belly up) whenever I stroke his back (much wimpering and little screeches).

No huffing up though...

What.The.Heck.

What does all this mean???? I dont understand. Ive NEVER had an animal that acted like this..I feel so bad for him I want to cry.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

I've never heard of that behavior... Is it possible he is expecting pain? If he was abused before then he might feel as if every time someone touches him it hurts and it just sort of became habit to shriek? That definitely seems disturbing and frightening...


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

I know im so concerned and so sad for him!! I wonder what he went through to act like this? I messaged his past owner about this behavior and to see what she says. You see I found him at our local pet store, and after I got him I posted about it on my local rat fan club page on facebook. Turns out that his last owner is also on that page and ended up messaging me about him, saying that he was hers. I dont know why she gave him up...she posted a few days ago about adopting out all her rats recently.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Doesn't seem like a very nice owner is they're willing to put their pet in a pet store to be sold as who-knows-what... But, maybe they had a good reason so I can't entirely blame them. It could even be that he had an owner before that person that was abusive. I would definitely say that something happened to him though. :I Can you describe the noise better or maybe try to find a sound track online that is close to it?


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Yea I have absolutely no idea! Ok its hard to describe. Just a very loud, very high pitch scream (not a squeek or a squeal but a scream). I found a youtube video that comes pretty close to it. Skip to 12 seconds into video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-arhKPfDrc very similar to this. Every time I attempted to touch/stroke his back. Then he would flip onto his back and expose his belly and try to push my hand away with his paws (i would gently stroke his belly at this point), when I stroked his belly he would wimper.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

A quick search brought up "Screaming: When rats are extremely frightened or feel acute pain, they may scream. Stop whatever is happening that is causing the rat to scream." (Found here: http://www.smallanimalchannel.com/rats/rat-behavior/rat-body-language.aspx ) I think this is going to be a tougher case than just aggression... It seems almost like this rat isn't terrified of people but of being touched by a person. I really think this is going to take some real patience and kindness to cure. He may always be phobic of being touched but it may be possible to fix it. Have you tried giving him any treats yet? That may be a good place to start. I would scatter a few around for the first session and just let him find a few he likes and keep tabs of them. The next session you take him out you could try only allowing him to have treats if he takes them from your hand (You may have to try handing it and laying it on your palm and seeing which he might take to better). This way, he isnhaving a good experience without you directly doing anything to him.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh thats a pretty good site! Yea I say that he started to get used to it towards the end of our session, he wasn't as ear pierce screaming as he was at the start (more just squeaks and wimpering towards the end). I think the treat idea is definitely good! I will try this! And just keep loving on him and doing what I can. My poor fella. I feel so so bad for him, but Im going to love him as much as I can so he will have a good life for now on


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

I definitely have to applaud you for willing to put all this effort into this boy. I'm sure many would have given up on him and left him alone for the rest of his life or gotten him euthanized. Thank you for seeing the chance this boy has and striving towards it. Please keep us updated on him and don't be afraid to ask more questions! :3


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

awww thank you!! I just really want him to be happy! Every life deserves happiness!! I will for sure too! Thank you for talking with me, I do appreciate it!


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

No problem at all! I hope I've been of some help at least. I just got my first pair yesterday so I don't have much experience yet, just knowledge from my prior research. XD And I'm glad to see that you think so. :3


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When folks adopt older rats that have had prior homes they have to realize that these rats come with baggage. And although some folks will disagree here, there was usually something wrong with their previous relationship. That's not to say it was the rat's fault. Adopting a rats that's already being rehomed is a whole lot like buying a $1.00 used car. I know, I've bought a few in my time. You usually start by pushing or towing it and then you move up to fixing it... on the up side I've had my first $1.00 used car for over 30 years now.

When you browse certain other sites that don't have immersion as an option, it's pretty much a Rat Forum exclusive, you will read a whole lot about neutering. Immersion fixes screwed up rats, trust training and PRO don't. Sites that still promote the older socialization methods also recommend neutering for screwed up rats.

I'm glad to hear your first extreme immersion session wasn't as extreme as some have been. Your rat has been severely mistreated to be this screwed up. If he's rolling over on his back he's expressing submission and if he's screaming when you rub his belly he's expecting pain. I've seen this kind of behavior with abused dogs more than rats.

Keep engaging him, be firm if he starts getting pushy or aggressive and don't back down, but if he's being submissive and not attacking you it's all about building communication, trust and friendship. Stay with him, keep engaging him gently and with lots of kindness, treats and soft tones. This particular issue is not a classically screwed up rat, it's more a tangle of problems. Humans may have neglected him and he may have gotten alpha confused and then they may have beaten him into this state, so when you start untangling him you might find multiple issues that might express themselves before you can properly bond and before he can live with your other rats.

Immersion and it's extreme variant have fixed lots of screwed up rats, it requires commitment on your part and it's followed by training and lots of hands on daily interaction to solidify your relationship after immersion, it's even worked with neutered rats that still had aggression issues. I've never had to neuter a rat and I think immersion can fix most issues and build a stronger relationship at the same time, but I don't ever throw away a tool. Like my monster sledge hammer, and my 6 foot pipe wrench, some tools are right for certain jobs, but might not be your best go to tools for most situations.

Personally it sounds like you are already starting to make progress, stick with it for a little while and get to know your new rat before you schedule a surgery. Once you've worked out your relationship, then we can take another look at how he's doing and see how to go about doing intros as safely as possible. But that's another problem for another day. Fix one problem at a time and then move on to the next.

Best luck.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

I just want to update a little bit! I have the new ratty with me on the couch and hes exploring the blanket, having some fun! When I took him out of the cage he didnt scream like before, but he still complained with some squeaks! I believe hubby and I are renaming him to "Odo" (the shape shifter from star trek Lol) He just suits that name I think,his given name Sebastian was just too long LOL. I think I will work on getting Odo a better cage in the mean time. Hes in a big tank right now (thats what we had on hand) and I want to put him in a wire cage so I can sit him next to the other boys so they can smell eachother without being close enough to hurt eachother for now (eek) Im still worried about how Im going to introduce him to my boys, I don't want him to be alone but Im scared for my other boys health!! *stresss* Lol. Do you think theres no hope for him to have a cage buddy since he apparently killed his last one? Do you think that once he becomes friendly with me (no more complaining about being held, taking treats from me etc) he'll be ready to meet the boys? How do you know if they will never get along? Id hate to think that they were ok and then later one of them ends up killed : /


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

It's probably going to be hard to say until you try to introduce them together... You can judge reactions based on how they act towards each other if you put their cages next to each other but that may not be how they're really going to be together. My suggestion to you is to do what Rat Daddy said and just take it one step at a time. Focus on helping him get over his aversion to being touched before you consider putting them together. This way, you can see what his true personality is like under all of that stress. Once he's okay with you and feels like he's one in the mischief with you then you might be able to test the waters on introducing the others and seeing how it goes. Any introduction can go south you just have to take baby steps and be ready to intercept anything that might go on at lightning speed. But, again, that's a conversation for later. If he's showing progress then work on that for now and try to get Odo to grow used to you and be calm around you and your husband. :3


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

aww yes you are probably right! Haha. I am just so impatient sometimes I suppose!! I just want us to be a big happy family Lol. It will probably be a while yet!


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Here he is : )


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

No worries! It's definitely something to keep in mind though while watching his temperament as you're able to see more. He may wind up being more of a solitary rat, it just all depends on him. Do you think your other rats will have a problem with introductions later on, assuming Odo has a good temperament?


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh I think they would be great! TBH Ive never seen my boys fight eachother (they play and wrestle all the time though), not even a scratch!


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Odo is absolutely adorable by the way! <3 I love that little splotch of color on the side of his face. :3

Then I'm sure all will go well between them once Odo has some time to mellow out. Hopefully they'll all be the best of friends by the end of this. ^-^


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

awww isnt he though!! Thats why I just couldnt pass him up haha. He reeled me in with his cuteness!!!

So when I put him back in his cage there was a couple times he shrieked at me as I was scooping him up! Whats odd though is that he doesnt really wiggle and struggle once I have hold of him...he just gets whiney and looks up at me like hes worried. Hes an odd ball thats for sure. I think I will just continue these little sessions with him every day and hopefully he will get over his fears!


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

I can definitely see how! Such a sweet little face!That's just about the best you can do at this point. Keep us updated on how everything goes on and I wish you the best of luck with him! :3


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It looks like he's untangling already, don't rush, don't get Odo engaged with the other rats for now, it's best to keep them apart at a distance while you sort out his human issues first. Screwed up rat can have setbacks as they heal emotionally... Don't rush Odo build your bond and then lead him forward... 

I'm not saying that this will take a long time, but rushing things can recreate the kinds of problems other people have had with him...


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your comments!!!


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Quick Update:

Ive been playing with Odo every day and hes doing really well (he still hasnt shown any aggression towards me, but he is still whiny Lol!) today I wiped him down with a damp wash cloth (mostly on his tail, for some reason he refuses to clean it himself it seems Lol).....he got pretty frustrated with me while I cleaned him but in the end I think he appreciated it! Tomorrow my vet is going to call me back so I can talk to him about Odo and his behaviors and to see what the best course of action would be for him! I have checked Odo over really good and I dont think he has any skin issues or any other physical reason to be upset by being touched, so we'll see what the vet thinks!! Im excited to hear from him!


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

By all means keep trying if you'd like, but don't doom him to be a solitary rat without neutering him first. I recommend you read up on rat body language and read this as well. http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails103.html

While clearly Odo has issues, I must say that I strongly disagree that all second hand rats are "screwed up" and "have baggage." MOST rats that are rehomed are given up through no fault of their own. I really hate when people spread around the damaging myth that shelter animals/rescue animals are damaged or broken goods. It makes my job unnecessarily harder.


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

So I just spotted this thread. If there is no physical issue, it is likely something happened to him.

I've had screamers before too. Usually terrified individuals who expect pain. I have one now, but she does not expect pain (I know her old owner), however she was nearly killed by a cat. So she squeals if you hold too tight. Trust training should help a lot.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Blackthorn,

I suspect if a first time rat owner came to your rescue they wouldn't wind up with a rat like Odo. I can certainly support individual ethical rescues. But the world of pre-owned rats is vast and not all rats are suitable for every owner... 

You don't need to be defending yourself here and you shouldn't be defending people who would dump screwed up rats on unsuspecting innocent victims. It's bad for the rat and the new rat owner alike and it shouldn't be your problem.

All rats come with their life time of experiences (baggage), which can be good or bad and not all rats that are pre-owned are screwed up. A good rescue or shelter will work to fix those rats that are screwed up and send them to appropriate homes. And they will hopefully place peaceful and social rats with folks that can take good care of them, but aren't necessarily problem rat experts.

Otherwise I believe that folks that adopt second hand rats from dubious sources should assume that they may have issues to deal with and be prepared to address them.... It comes down to realistic expectations leading to better long term results. I also feel that for the most part people with no background in training or handling rats are best served by adopting a healthy, happy, well socialized pup or pups from a reputable breeder, or a happy and friendly rat pup from anywhere... A really good shelter or rescue might also be a good place to find an older new best furry friend. 

In fact, great rats can be found anywhere. I pulled one right out of a bin at PetSmart once and carried him all around the store, he was a superb rat from the moment he climbed up onto my hand to the point I put him back in the bin and he clawed at the glass to get back to me. Someone got a wonderful rat for sure.

But in the greater scheme of things when it comes to used rats or used cars, it's caveat emptor. $1.00 used cars are great bargains to good mechanics like myself and to folks with skills and experience, screwed up rats make for good challenges and eventually great best friends. To new rat owners or first time car owners, shiny new cars and pre-socialized rats from good breeders make for their best chance at a great new car or new rat experience...

Sure an honest used car dealership and a responsible rescue or shelter would make a world of difference to that equation. 

I generally get rid of things that I don't like and keep those I love. I tend to think most people are like that. Someone might disagree with me. It certainly isn't always the rats fault, even if the rat is screwed up, it was usually the human that screwed him up. But that's not the point.... No one adopts "most (or even many) second hand rats"... It always comes down to the one or two or a few rats you are personally adopting. If they are friendly and well socialized all of the other rats in the world don't matter. If you can fix them, again it's not an issue. If they are screwed up and you can't fix them... then you have a problem. And that free cage on Craig's list may come with a world of hurt inside.

I support good rat rescues, and anyone that knows me, knows I've spent more than my fair share of time helping folks fix their screwed up rats. I'd love to see every rat find a good home. But for every screwed up, biting and twisted rat that goes to the wrong home a perfectly friendly and healthy rat gets fed to a snake. For every new rat owner that will never own another rat because they adopted the wrong rat, several truly good rats will never find a good home. I'm all about the right rats going to the right humans and good first time rat experiences leading to more rats in the future. Good rescues and shelters can be good places to adopt a rat from. But in general to say that second hand rats never come with issues would be as bad as saying that all second hand rats are screwed up. And by not preparing potential rat owners for issues that may come up, we are setting them up for failure.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Look. You obviously have clout on this forum, Rat Daddy, and when you say affects many more people than just those who reply to your posts. I have combated the myth that shelter and rescue animals are all old, damaged, and were "unwanted for a reason" most of my life. Thus, I am going to bristle when people perpetuate that myth, even perhaps unwittingly. It IS my problem. That myth kills sweet, friendly, wonderful pets ALL THE TIME. It actively harms rescue animals and those who run ethical, responsible rescues. People are always quick to be "Oh, I don't mean a responsible rescue!" But guess what? Other people lump those in with your words, and if there's one thing I despise, it's being considered to be at the same level as a pet store, byb, feeder breeder, jerk dumping pets on craigslist, etc. 

I have worked in the shelter/welfare world for decades and while YOU personally "get rid of things you don't like and keep what you love," that is not reality. I have only my years of experience dealing with thousands and thousands of people surrendering their pets to tell you, no, there wasn't usually something wrong with their previous relationship. Sure, there are plenty of people who don't give a crap. There are animals that end up untrained or with other behavioral problems due to their owner's lack of care, knowledge, or concern. However, this is not the norm. Abuse victims give up their pets. People who lose their jobs, their homes, their spouses, their heath, give up their pets. People at the mercy of other people. People who realize they cannot properly provide for their pet as much as they love them. There is also a VAST population who give up wonderful, perfectly healthy, awesome, amazing pets because of frivolous and stupid reasons, or for no real reason at all. The failure to connect is not the fault of the animal, but something deficient in the owner.

I admit I am at a loss as to your vehement anti-neutering stance, but that's your stance, so be it. I just cannot imagine as a novice pet owner trying for weeks or months to introduce two difficult hormonal adult bucks, risking paying emergency vet bills for injuries or even the lives of their rats, or risking getting bitten over and over again, when a simple neuter would solve the issue. It perplexes me the lengths some people will go to to avoid spending money at the vet. It also amazes me that you seem to think that unless someone fights a battle with their rats and/or uses your theory they can't bond, or bond as well, and that if they choose neutering they'll never have the same bond with their rats. That's just not true. Rather, I find most folks find it a lot easier to bond with a rat that isn't trying to actively hurt them or their other pets, and whatever gets to that point quickly means less built up stress, resentment, and ill feelings. You can still do all those bonding things with a neutered rat, believe it or not, and it will probably work a whole lot faster and easier on everyone (and, as you say, most novice owners don't have the skills to turn around difficult rats). And, for those who say "oh but it might not work," again, I only have my experience to rely upon, and as many folks as you have helped, Rat Daddy, I have also been involved with the rat community for many, many years.

As for me defending people who dump "screwed up" rats on others, wow. Please show me where I did that. That is all the more reason to encourage people to go with reputable, ethical sources, but that does not always mean breeders, and that does not always mean babies, and wordage is very important. Believe it or not, I have had many adopters that were much better suited to an older, bomb-proof pair of adult rats than babies. Also, please show me where I said second hand animals never have issues.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

So Odo is doing great today! He hasnt wanted to come out this morning and thats ok I thought I would just let him chill for now. I did however give him a treat today and he actually took it from my fingers YAY! Id say thats great progress haha (he wouldnt take anything from my fingers before). I was able to talk to my vet and he said that the squeaking/whineyness from being touched is related to his aggressive hormonal behavior towards others rats. He said that I can neuter him if I want and it CAN help but there are no guarantees. I think that after Odo is much more comfortable here at home that I will have him neutered (so probably in a month, a couple paychecks from now)...but my vet also said that if I do I will have to wait about a month for the testosterone levels to go down and then I can introduce him to my boys! Im really hopeful that everything will turn out! Even if they cant live together, after hes neutered, they can still have play dates and who knows, maybe he will even get along fantastically with my girls if the boys dont work out. I will just feel a lot better if he gets neutered and hes not driven by these crazy hormones, plus it might make him feel better as well. Whatever happens I dont plan on just getting rid of him, hes already my little guy! If all else fails he'll just end up with his own roomy cage.

I dont think hes as crazy as the other people have been suggesting, I think that he might not have had a very comfortable life before (maybe there was a lot of stress involved) and perhaps hes just a little slow in the head and maybes hes a little handicap..but he really is a sweet little guy!!

It will be interesting to see what happens with him and my boys! I really hope they get along famously when its all said and done. For me its not really about the money when it comes to my animals..I don't mind spending extra money on vet bills or cages etc, taking care of these little guys is like a hobby of mine! Some people think its crazy to spend $$ on a rat that might only live another year or two but hes already part of my family and I want whats best for him and the other little guys...even if he his a little odd and probably mentally challenged lol. I think if someone can spend all their extra money on hobbies like cars and video games...why shouldnt I be able to on my animals?

Whatever Odo turns out to be Im not going to judge him for it, because hes just Odo! Ill just do what I can to keep him happy and comfy and if that means he doesnt want to be around other rats than thats ok! So, we'll just have to see!  Hes a special one though, thats for sure!


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Good news.  He's a lucky guy to have you!


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I am so happy to hear he is in such loving hands. I am sure he will adjust to you soon.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

MrsTefee, studies show that when a rat isn't confused about it's status and living with and under the leadership of a good alpha, his hormonal levels will actually reduce to normal. I don't know if his aggressive behavior is hormonally driven or it is a result of his former living situation, but it is a cycle where aggression actually increases hormone levels and increased hormone levels increase aggression... Reduced aggression reduces hormone levels and reduced hormone levels make a rat more relaxed. I think you are making really wonderful progress, and neutering is an option if you don't feel like he's ready for introductions without it. I'd recommend you keep working with Odo and keep your options open, it's always great to save money for the neuter or something special for yourself if you find you don't need it when the time comes. It's always good to have options. 

Blackthorne,

We may have different priorities, week after week I've watched hundreds of rats from the most innocent babies to full grown adults sold off to be fed to snakes and other carnivorous reptiles, animals and even bugs; no second chances, no regard to their personalities, no loving rescue workers to rehabilitate them and no one who was going to pay a dime to a vet for a spay or a neuter or even give them the least bit of health care.... Your rats are already 1000 times better off than what I've witnessed.

I'm realistic, every time someone adopts a rat a few hundred others are going to die horribly. That's the cruel reality... When I pick one rat to take to a great home where it will free range and go to parks and explore the vast world and become a true shoulder rat, I'm sentencing hundreds of others to to a pitiful and painful death. 
Therefore, my first concern is to try and give folks the best advise to find a rat that will be easiest for them to bond with and to fall in love with. And quite honestly, no matter what I say, way more rats are going to die than get saved whether folks take my advise or not.

Like it or not, way more pre-owned rats come from Craig's list or places that don't care a rats tail about rats than come from the relatively few good rescues and shelters. And maybe good and caring rat owners are more likely to seek you out than to just list their rats for free online, so maybe you do get to see lots of well adjusted rats from good homes turning up at your rescue. That's your experience and I honestly believe you are reporting it truthfully. 

My experience is wholly different.... I don't seem to answer many posts from people that adopted charming and well adjusted rats from reputable rescues like yours. Most of the folks I deal with are new to rats and got their adult pre-screwed up rat(s) from just about anywhere else, sometimes free with cage. Just like you and me they love animals but their first experience isn't likely to be the best one... Most have already been bitten before they even post here for help. I recommend friendly healthy pups and better yet if they are pre-socialized to new rat owners because it's the best chance of getting a wonderful rat and having a great first rat experience no matter where people live. I've both adopted adult rats and raised my own from pups... I've loved all of the rats we've had, but given the choice, I'll adopt a pup and raise it my way and I'll have it longer and it will be better adapted to our home and it's going to be less work to socialize and bond with. I can fix rats and I have fixed rats and to be honest, even I'll still take a cute friendly little pup every time. Some of my fondest memories are actually in bottle feeding the pups and hand wrestling them and introducing them to the great big world... Raising a rat pup is a wonderful experience I think most rat owners truly will enjoy. 

In short, frankly it doesn't matter to me where the rat comes from, just that a rat gets a good home and a human has a great experience and hopefully goes on to adopt more rats and get his or her friends to do the same... You might think me heartless, but I'm actually being kind, for every rat that's adopted into a good home hundreds die... that's my big picture reality.

That said if a shelter or rescue has great rats to offer to good homes, I strongly encourage them to keep up the fine work and admire them for it and suggest that people looking for good rats go check out what is available. And I'll even go so far as to suggest that some rats prefer to be partnered with other older rats. When we offered Fuzzy Rat the choice of hundreds of fine young rats and pups, she insisted on a 7 month old neglected high white... And yes, for Fuzzy Rat, I broke my rules and adopted the rat she chose and spent a great deal of time working with her... No she was never right, and I always wondered who she would have been had I adopted her as a pup, but Fuzzy Rat was right, Amelia turned out to be a very special rat. Of course a couple of the bad habits Amelia brought into my home, she passed on to Max and now to Cloud and they are passing from generation to generation... 

I don't know how to put it better, but just because I encourage one thing, doesn't imply I discourage something else. If you are a viable option for local folks around your rescue and you have great rats to re-home they should check you out. If someone wants an older rat your rescue might be a far better place for folks to go before going to Craig's list or a to pet shop. I've never discouraged anyone from going to a reputable rat rescue or shelter! Either way, one or two rats get saved and hundreds more die... and as you are promising to deliver healthy, well socialized friendly rats, yours are just as deserving of good homes as any others. 

I've dealt with problem rats that folks have adopted from various shelters and rescues. It was never pretty, even though I have lots of wins in that department. If you include them in the shelters and rescues you are defending you are on very thin ice. But you should stand up for your own rescue because you believe in it. I've never been to your rescue, I've never met the rats you have available to good homes, I don't know how you match rats to owners or how you rehabilitate problem rats. So I can't in good conscience endorse your rescue, but I like your conviction. Even if we disagree more than we agree. I think you are serious about your rats and finding them good homes and I don't think you would foist a problem rat on someone that can't take care of it. That's my gut feeling about you personally and that's about as close to an endorsement as I've ever given anyone. I don't pretend to have clout, but folks know that I only recommend what I've personally tried and tested and believe in. So, if they read you the way I do, I think they will give you a chance, it's up to you to live up to their trust, not mine.

I think I've gone through the whole neutering debate before, so I'll just shorthand it... Immersion works just as well or better than neutering in most cases, there are no surgical risks, it can be hundreds of dollars cheaper and it works on building bonds and fixing the rat human relationship that surgery doesn't address. It addresses learned behavioral issues that surgery doesn't. It's just a more modern and better approach. And if it doesn't work, which really is very rare, there's always neutering. 

Now I'm going to add one new point here, when you see a post from someone that just got their biting rat free with a cage and you recommend a $300.00 neuter, most likely you are getting politely thanked and then the person is logging off the rat forum, logging onto Craigs list and listing that same cage for $10.00 without a rat in it... I'm not going into what happens to the rat. And they are going to take the $10.00 to buy a shiny new turtle. And what of the $300.00 the person never had in the first place to invest in his free rats? He'd likely buy some new tires for his car which may or may not be insured and is most likely not getting the new tires either because few tire companies accept payment in money someone doesn't have.

As a shoulder rat handler, I meet lots of people, the number two questions I get asked about rats (mostly by parents) center around the costs. How much is food... cage... etc. People wince at 99 cents per pound for lab blocks, even when I tell them that a pound of food can last over a month... When I add that rats also eat table scraps they actually perk up. I don't know much about Austin Tx, but I don't live in an area where most rats get expensive surgeries.... The locals here might take on the challenge of an extreme immersion to try and fix a rat, but if they did have $300.00, their hand me down car would most likely not be rolling around on 4 bald tires. Even well off folks around here might not spend a few hundred dollars on a $10.00 pet rat they hardly know. My neighbor just put down his 1 year old English bulldog for want of an expensive surgery... and that puppy wasn't cheap. If folks won't spend money on expensive dogs, they aren't spending 30 times the purchase price on rats. I know that sounds hard to believe, we all love our rats and would gladly do whatever is best for them, but it's a cruel world out there. Immersion is a solution that still works when folks don't have the resources or willingness to part with them.

Personally I love working with animals. I train true shoulder rats! I put in dozens or even hundreds of hours into going places and training rats... A few hours of immersion is fun for me. $300.00 and a couple of days off work to have my rat neutered isn't. The stress of waiting for my rat to go though surgery is way more stressful to me than an aggressive rat. I'd even prefer immersion to the traffic between my house and the vet's office...

Again, I see neutering as an option... I still have my father's breaker bar and six foot extension bar to remove those really seized bolts, but I also have a 6 hp compressor and an air impact gun, that will do the same job without breaking a sweat. I'm not throwing out my dad's tools any time soon, but they aren't my first go to methods anymore. It's not a debate about what works, it's a debate over what's easier and better for the rat owner and is better for the rat. Do immersion and you can always still neuter if you have to, try to get your money back from the vet when the neuter doesn't solve your behavioral problems or the rat dies and see how that works out.

No matter what Mrs Tefee eventually decides to do with Odo regarding the neuter, none of the time she's spent working with Odo has been wasted. They are building a bond and learning to trust each other and he's getting fixed through her caring and love. And even her vet told her neutering may not help, whereas I said that immersion would help and it has. 

And furthermore, I applaud Mrs Tefee for adopting a problem rat and taking on this challenge! I've adopted a rat with issues and fixed it and I know it is an emotional experience and it isn't always easy.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Yes, the lucky ones end up in rescue. However, if no one adopts from rescue, rescues go out of "business" so to speak. No one can save them all, so it is important to do the most good and the least harm with one's choices. Thus, much as it sucks to turn aside from them, it is better to adopt from a rescue or responsible breeder than from a pet store or feeder breeder, because by doing the former, you help more rats and those who care about rats, allowing them to continue their efforts, and by the latter, you condemn more to that fate and reward those uncaring money grubbers who put them there. Of the rats that I am able to take in, many would have died or worse had I not stepped in. If people encourage others to support unethical sources rather than ethical ones, particularly due to false impressions, it just means the ethical ones struggle more, and/or disappear.

Well, of course you don't answer posts like that, no one comes onto a forum to ask for help when they aren't having any problems with their rats.  If someone random came to this forum they would get the impression that rats bite far more than they do, because obviously people are going to post when they have a problem. Thus a disproportionate number of posts are going to be about biting rats, rats with problems, etc. than "Hi folks, my rats are all wonderful, can you give me some advice about them?" ;P

You may prefer baby rats, but not everyone does, believe it or not! Personally, I much prefer adults to babies, and many of my adopters do, too. I have an easier time bonding with adult rats, myself. For those who want babies, though, babies are not uncommon in rescue at all. That's one myth out there that must be dispelled. I get plenty of young and baby rats in, so can accommodate those who would prefer babies, but not if they believe that rescues only have older rats and screwed up rats with bad habits, and thus never look into the option. I also find fixing the ones that are screwed up quite rewarding, too. Many of the best rats I have ever had were "screwed up," heh. I find raising babies to mostly be a chore and far less fulfilling to me, personally.

Of course not all rescues are equal, and someone should evaluate a rescue, breeder, or ANY source carefully beforehand. However, I am proud of what I do and I do have the rep to back it up. I will never claim to be perfect, but with as much as I pour my heart, soul, and all my funds into saving rats and providing a valuable service to the community, I am going to take umbrage when people actively or passively make things more difficult for me and those like me without just cause.

I guess what I am looking for is your proof that immersion works as well instead of neutering. You say you almost exclusively take in baby rats, so would not your direct experience with problem rats be limited? If it is in regard to folks you have helped through forums like this, I'll keep an eye on how things turn out with those folks and see how things end up myself, I suppose. As for the OP vet saying neutering might not work, no vet is ever going to give you a guarantee on ANYTHING. It's bad medical practice. Even I would never absolutely guarantee it, though I can honestly say I have personally never encountered a rat where neutering did not at least help considerably. That's direct experience with hundreds and hundreds of rats, fwiw. I have no way to prove that, I suppose, but that is why I am irritated when people make it out to be like it's a 50/50 shot or less, especially when they have little/no experience with neutering.

Personally, I find many people to be as unwilling to invest time/effort as money in most situations. Both upset me. It's not hard for me to believe at all, especially considering my background in animal rescue, but I won't encourage that attitude, either. Time and costs are two of the most common reasons rats are surrendered, and there are a lot of people out there that simply shouldn't own pets, but unfortunately do. I admit I have little patience for folks who want a magic solution to their rat's behavioral or medical issues that doesn't require any effort or expense. I'll help however I can with many things, but stuff like "My rat's guts are hanging out, what home remedy can I use to treat her?" well... I won't asspat someone like that. I also do not have much patience for people who will keep a rat alone for the rest of his life or try and dump him rather than consider neutering.

Perhaps it is best we try to go our separate ways on this forum rather than butting heads all the time, though I simply request to please consider your verbage and generalities that actively make my job harder and denigrate what I do, and try to see things from my perspective and experiences as I will try to do with you.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

Odo is still doing well!! Hes still shy but he lovvvvvvvves adventures on the couch with me! Today I scruffled him and scritched his ears while he was in his cage, ontop of his hidey box.. and he didnt puff up or whine or complain or anything (although he did look slightly meh like "why is she touching me" LOL)!!! So thats awesome!!!

I have one little health check update I noticed last night though is that in HIS left eye I can notice a cloudyness, as if hes forming cataracts in that eye. Im thinking hes a bit young to have cataracts though (unless the previous owner/store lied or just really didnt know his age) So Im not really sure why he has it, if thats what it is... It seems most easily seen at night when I just have the table lamp turned on by the couches, just the way the lights hits his eyes in that way makes it more prominent I suppose because I havent noticed it otherwise. Its just hard to tell what it is really because even his other eye isnt all dark...almost like if he has blue eyes but not??? Ill link you guys a couple pictures from photobucket! Im not really sure how well it will work, I used my expensive HD camera to hopefully get a better picture for you (even though he was all wiggly the whole time trying to see the camera LOL)

Both eyes (notice HIS left eye, the slight cloudyness) awww he was interested in the camera haha
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/tefee19/TwoEyes_zps9917915a.jpg

His 'regular' eye. It has an odd color to it? Is it supposed to be blue eyes?? I dont even know!
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/tefee19/RightEye2_zps3a2fae10.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/tefee19/RightEye1_zps8d40433c.jpg

His cloudy? left eye again
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/tefee19/LeftEye_zps5fb6ecc6.jpg

Comparing to his "normal" right eye its not as different but the line where the color is is more prominent in the right eye making me think that he kind of has blue eye color or something like that...but I dont even know! They just seem odd to me you guys. What do you think?

Please let me know if you cant see the pictures because I will shrink them and try to upload them otherwise..but I just wanted you to see the full size so they would be clearer!

He doesnt really act blind when he is out..I mean he IS cautious but I feel like thats because hes still getting used to the house and everything. Otherwise he looks around and climbs and jumps etc.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

MrsTefee,

I looked at the photos on both my monitors and it's hard for me to tell. Certain rats I've had some odd refractions. My black eyed ruby's eyes were green in daylight and flashed red in florescent light. It's sort of a light bending phenomenon due to the shape of a rat's eyes, not a prism effect, but similar. It doesn't look like an infection from what I can see and I don't know if cataracts can be treated in rats if that's what it is. This is the kind of thing you really do need a vet to tell you for sure. When Fuzzy Rat was really old and sick her eyes would go dull, sort of grayish and pretty much not reflect any light she would become lethargic, like a senior moment. Then she would perk up again when engaged and her eyes would "light up" again. It didn't seem to impair her vision, but she was really very old and sick. I'm thinking the first time we noticed it she was about 18 months old.

If you have other rats with similar color eyes, give them a close examination too. Sometimes I've noticed things in one rat that seemed unusual until I checked my others to find the same thing just less noticeably there too. 

You can certainly test Odo's eyesight to see if its affecting his vision. Get him intersted in a treat and move it around and see if he can follow it with his eyes. Rats tend to point their noses at what they want to look at and will follow a treat around. Rats with inferior vision also tend to avoid open spaces and follow walls.

Also you might start a thread in rat health. I'm more into rat behavior, the folks with the real extensive medical expertise tend to hang out in that forum. It's also the kind of thing that Blackthorn might be more helpful with having experience with thousands of adult and older rats. 

Blackthorn,

I think, I can better understand your reaction to my comments regarding adopting older rats.... you pushed one of my personal buttons, likely by accident, but never the less, it took me a while to pull myself off the ceiling. You see, I personally find it morally unjustifiable and reprehensible to discriminate against rats based on where they come from. Fuzzy Rat, a rat which was second to none that ever lived, came from a feeder bin and was born in a rat mill. Had she become snake food, I think it would have been a tragedy, it certainly would have changed my life and the early life experience of my daughter. Fuzzy Rat taught my daughter how to make friends, a skill she was lacking as an only child. While I absolutely agree that there are some things we can do about rat mills and pet shops that mistreat rats, I don't believe we can ever hold the poor rats that were born there or found their way there through no fault of their own hostage because of our otherwise good intentions. I've written my share of remarks on this topic. But you know that Fuzzy Rat, Odo, and likely many (dare I say most) of the rats you have rescued came from humble beginnings in rat mills or BYB's and likely many came from pet shops or were once "snake food candidates". So you know there's nothing wrong with the rats and I don't think we disagree about that. 

As a banker, I've run the numbers on just about every business model that involves pet rats and I've concluded that most pet shops don't make very much profit on feeder rats and lose money on pet rats when you account for the floor space, staffing and overhead... Feeder rats support the more lucrative reptile trade and pet rats support the dry goods, food litter and cage revenue streams. If you want to see pet rats out of a pet shop, stop buying the high mark up items and buy lots of rats on which they actually lose money. Once the pet shops stop selling cages, food and supplies, you will be amazed how quickly the rats will vanish. Rat mills and most BYB's make their meager living on feeder or lab rats for the most part, it's a really high volume, low margin business. And the few rats they sell as pets most likely doesn't impact their bottom line one way or the other. Most rat mills have high volume clients for feeder or lab rats and most BYB's don't tend to last very long if they are trying to sell pets for profit. Adopting a lab rat, or a feeder rat or even a store rat is hardly a drop in the bucket. But we can disagree here... and perhaps you can argue that it's "better" to give these folks no money at all... but holding innocent rats hostage because of where they came from isn't justified by any means in my opinion...

AND THERE'S THE RUB... By recommending young healthy rat pups, could I be misread to suggest that people discriminate against rats from rescues or shelters? It certainly wasn't my intention... A good rat can come from any source, I don't think any rat should be held hostage or denied a good home because of where it comes from... if a rat from a pet mill or a BYB or a feeder bin should be given a fair chance why not a rat from a rescue? I certainly didn't mean to imply when I wrote that all rats are created equal, that rats from rescues or shelters should be regarded as less equal. 

I stand strongly by my position that no rat should be discriminated against because of where it comes from and how much we dislike the industry and that every rat deserves a chance based on it's personality. I tend to support ethical breeders, not because they breed superior rats, but because they usually pre-socialize rats to make them easier for new rat owners to adopt and bond with... That said, I also strongly advise especially new rat owners to avoid older screwed up rats, which I honestly believe is good advise. 

Somehow, I don't think you would honestly tell someone not to adopt a rat like Fuzzy Rat or even Odo from a pet shop or BYB or feeder bin if you were there on site with them. I think your compassion, like mine would win the day. But your remarks could be misinterpreted by some and sentence certain innocent rats to a horrible death, as perhaps my remarks can be misinterpreted to suggest that really good adult rats should be avoided as pets... or even more wrongly that rescues and shelters should be avoided... To be perfectly clear this was never my intention!

I hope that you re-consider your remarks regarding rats sourced from the pet trade, I hope you find it in your heart not to encourage people to just let rats born from humble beginnings die unloved and unwanted because of your (our shared) dislike for the industry, and I most certainly will consider re-phrasing my own remarks to not discriminate against rescues and shelters.... A great rat from a bad shelter is still a great rat, I hope everyone can see that.

I am however left with the issue that a new to rats owner's worst nightmare is a screwed up biting adult rat. They really need to be warned against adopting just any adult rat that comes with a free cage or is on sale in a isolation cage at the pet shop or is being foisted on them by some shelter that doesn't give a rats tail about rats... Most of these folks don't know how to tell a good rat from a nightmare. And if a person doesn't know anything about rats, how can they tell what they are getting into other than with a pre-socialized pup or a pup that's pretty much statistically unlikely to be screwed up?

I guess that's a topic for another thread....

I return this one to Mrs Tefee, with thanks for indulging my off topic ravings.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I apologize for hitting any buttons, not my intention to be sure. I am not saying there is anything wrong with the rats themselves or that anyone is terrible for making that choice, I feel heartbreak for the rats in that situation as much as anyone. I'll try and clarify my position. When you rescue from someplace like a pet store or feeder breeder and give them your money, you are also paying to put another two rats in its place and making the breeder moms pop out another litter to compensate for the extra demand (plus, lining the pockets of people who treat animals as merchandise). It's just as important, if not more so, to think of the animals behind the scenes. Do the rats that replace the one lucky rat not deserve a good life, too? Less than the one bought? What about the mother rat? Does she deserve to have to have another litter in terrible conditions to fill demand? When you save a feeder rat, the reptile does not go hungry. Another simply fills that slot. The situation is just perpetuated. It may just be semantics, but to me, rescue shouldn't mean at the expense of others. I'll give you that it is great for the one that gets cared for a home, but there may be just as special a rat (or, more likely, several) to replace that one - rats just as worthy, but not as lucky. It's important to think of them, too.

I don't have the heart to ignore those rats any more than you have the heart to ignore the one in front of you in the store. Pet stores capitalize on pity buys - why should they care for their animals/treat sick ones/etc if people will buy them? It doesn't matter to them the reasons behind the purchase. Plus, there are so many needy little ones out there (most wonderful rats in themselves) to help that DON'T fuel the horrible system and cause more suffering by helping. I'd rather give my money to someone who cares about rats and will use that money to save more rats, not to doom more to that same suffering/awful fate and reward them for their callousness, you know?

Here's my self interest showing - if everyone near me just purchased feeder rats and rats from pet stores and other unethical sources, there would be no homes left for the rats in my care. Good rattie homes are, sadly, in finite supply. Soon I'd be unable to continue to operate and any other rat needing rescue (from all kinds of situations) would have no place to go. They'd be killed just as surely as the rats in the feeder bins in most cases. Meanwhile, the pet store would be more than happy to keep pumping out rats for more people to "rescue." Personally, if I can only take in one more rat and give it a good home, given the choice (and considering there are equally wonderful rats in both places), I'd rather give a home to the one where my doing so does the most good/least harm for rats as a whole and not support the industry most of us despise. I'd really like more people to consider that.

People are quick to say that buying a feeder rat doesn't matter. Well, I can assure you it adds up. A vast majority of pet people buy their rats from pet stores, and a vast majority of those were being sold as feeders. With the increasing popularity of rats as pets plus the misguided but well-meaning folks wanting to save them all, it really is a big part of the market. The pet stores and feeder breeders know it, too. That's why many of them breed fancier colors and varieties - they are not doing that for the reptile people's sakes. Also, it makes a big difference to folks on the other side of the coin, as I have mentioned previously. 

It comes down to education. Pet people should adopt from good rescues and/or buy from ethical, responsible breeders whenever possible. Folks needing feeders should breed and euthanize their own supply as humanely as possible or support a private breeder who does so. Pet stores are a bad option for everyone, even herpers, with the conditions and breeding practices, and promotion of live feeding.

Also, with as cheap as rats are for the pet store to minimally care for and breed en masse, they'd be hard pressed not to make a profit from the sales of rats. There are plenty of "businesses" out there that profit selling solely feeders. That huge bust awhile back from Global Exotics, they made all their money on the feeders rather than the high priced exotics, and clearly they were NOT caring for them at all.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I cannot tell from the pictures what is up. Does his eye look "dry?" Cataracts are usually pretty obvious, a white spot in the pupil. It is more likely he may have corneal scarring causing cloudiness. Antibiotic drops can help as well as re-wetting drops. If you're concerned, having a vet check it out may not be a bad idea.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Global Captive Breeders, rather. (warning, upsetting link) http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...sgusting-squalid-conditions-article-1.1406659 I spent hours sobbing over the details from this case.

Much as it pains me to use a PETA link - http://www.peta.org/features/rat-snake-investigation-california-dealer-warehouse/ "Behm repeatedly told workers *not to care for the facility’s reptiles because his revenue was coming from the rat-breeding operation and there was “no reason to spend time up front” (where the reptiles were housed) when the reptiles weren’t generating any revenue."

*These are the places rats in pet stores/feeder rats come from, unless they breed their own (which is usually just smaller scale terrible conditions). I won't personally support it in any way and urge others not to, either.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I can't edit my post but I wanted to add that the second link is EXTREMELY upsetting, so be warned. Also to say... even drops in the bucket add up. Even if it's one less litter of rats produced for a miserable existence and end in a pet shop, and one more litter of rescue rats placed in a good home rather than killed, it makes a difference.

I apologize for derailing your thread as well, MrsTefee.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In sadness and with defference and respect toward all of the animals that died....

GCB was DOA when PETA got there... No thriving business has thousands of dollars of dead inventory laying around. GCB wasn't making any money on rats, rather they were losing their shirts. I'm a commercial banker and collection manager by trade, I can do a business plan and I can usually tell you if it will fail before it opens. The moment GCB lost it's way and thought their business was breeding and selling rats they were doomed. 

Some time ago, I worked up a business model for a rat mill, there were very few scenarios that worked and none that would get you rich quick and by the way I'm not going to post any of them. GCB wasn't even close to having a business model with a chance of success. PETA and the local authorities did a mercy killing on the business as well as most of the animals as far as I can tell.

If GCB was going after the pet rat market, it only killed them quicker. If you think a feeder rat business looks bad on paper, you should see how bad a pet rat business looks. 

The idea of making money breeding rats is for the most part a tragic myth. Everyone seems to think that if you put a male and a female rat together gold flows out... This thinking is so terribly flawed that so many people try it and wind up with countless dead rats and bankruptcies to show for their efforts. The inventory has no shelf life, the costs to scale up generally exceed the returns, rats don't ship well and require climate controlled environments, staffing costs are too high, the margins are low and I can go on and on... If anyone in their right mind is looking to start a business.. rats should be their last thought or they will wind up just like GCB. 

As much as we hate the current state of the rat industry (rat mills, pet shops and BYB's), a handful of hobby breeders aren't going to make a difference if it wasn't there tomorrow. Likely your shelter would be out of business in a month, which may be a good thing, there being no more rats to rescue. Cages food and supplies would be off the shelf in less than a year and the fancy would functionally be defunct in the US as would much of the big herp hobby. The largest seller of rats in central NJ sold out to a fried chicken franchise for the land value... In the course of our travels folks always ask me where they can buy rats of their own, I used to recommend that they go there and find a nice furry friend for $2.99, now I just tell them they can meet our rats, but there are currently no more appropriate rats available to be had for beginners. Simple as that... the well is dry and the rats are gone... if you like rats watch them on youtube. Maybe in time some other source for healthy young rats suitable for beginning rat owners will come up, but for now the fancy is dead in my area. Unfortunately I've seen what paradise looks like and it isn't pretty. We went through heck to get Cloud... it only took 3 months to find a single suitable rat in the vast ratless desert left in the wake of one massive pet shop closing. Don't fool yourself, our fancy is very much dependent on those rat sources we love to hate.

As to the vending machine concept of feeder rats where one replaces another in the same slot... yes it's true whether the rat goes for food or as a pet... someone will insert coin remove a rat and another one will drop into it's place (assuming the store doesn't close), I'd rather it be a rat lover that drops in the coin than a snake owner. At least one of that poor momma rat's babies is going to a good home... which still strikes me as way better than none.

For every 100 rats bred in the US it might be a fair guess to say one becomes a pet, perhaps it's actually a lot less but not likely too much more... For now the pet trade is a flea on the tail of the dog. Even if the numbers look large, they are absolutely insignificant compared to what's fed to reptiles, used for research or in education. And as I've recently discovered if the dog dies, the flea is in big trouble...

I do however tend to agree that people shouldn't adopt more rats that they can handle for any reason regardless of where they come from or how kind it seems to adopt just one more rat.

Sure I like to see folks go to reputable hobby breeders for pre-socialized rats and as I've said a good tempered well socialized rat old or young from a rescue or shelter if available is a great option for some folks, but there used to be a vehement opposition to feeder rats or pet shop rats... people actually started their threads by apologizing that they had to get their rats there... Feeder bin refugees are not second class citizens in the rat community and I don't believe anyone should have to apologize for adopting a rat from anywhere. It might be nice and even noble to adopt a rat from a hobby breeder or a rescue or a shelter, but it's morally reprehensible to purposefully discriminate against folks that buy pet shop or feeder rats or condemn a rat because of where it was born.

This is Fuzzy Rat just being Fuzzy Rat...


She loved to hang out in trees...








And she loved to just walk up to strangers and say hi








and she loved to walk at heel








And she especially liked to eat with us









and she was love...

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









And she was the co-founder and inspiration for immersion theory and it would have been an unthinkable crime if she died alone and afraid in a reptile cage at only three weeks old... 

I know I wasn't wrong in rescuing her from a feeder bin, she proved it every day of her amazing life, and she was never second class to any rat alive in her time... 

In fact I can't say I have a single honest regret or the slightest moral reservation about any rat I've ever rescued from a feeder bin or snake breeder... even if the ones I left behind did break my heart.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Well, neither of us are going to change our minds, though I think you missed my points entirely. If it is the difference between 100 rats born and bred in suffering vs 101, it seems clear to me. The lower the demand, the lower the supply. The higher the demand, no matter how small in comparison to the feeder demand, the more the supply is increased. If I personally had to rely on unethical sources for rats, I'd rather not have any. I'd be more than happy to go out of business for lack of rats. Know how much it sucks having to turn them away constantly because I'm full and there aren't enough adoptions happening? I don't expect everyone to be as hard line as I am on that, but I have very valid reasons for that stance.

The idea that mills don't make money is laughable to me. Someone sticking rats together is not likely to make money, sure, but when you breed in high volume with low standards and ship to pet stores across the country, you make money. Here is one example of a "better" run mill. http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/community/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85838

I think I've made it very clear I do not have any issue with the rats themselves nor have I ever referred to feeder rats as second class citizens nor told people to regret having their rats after the fact, and I understand why people purchase them, even if I think it isn't the right thing to do in regards to the bigger picture/welfare of the species. I don't treat people who buy pet store rats any differently, though I will encourage them to make a different choice if at all possible.

I think it is morally reprehensible to ignore the fate of the rats that replace the one you purchase (and to condemn more to that fate by said purchase), and to keep silent about it not being the best option and why. Go ahead and buy pet store/feeder rats if you must, but all I ask is people do it with their eyes open and don't kid themselves about it.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The business you are looking at breeds higher markup animals aside from rats and it is in Europe where the price per animal is generally a whole lot higher. I can pretty much promise you that if you started up that same operation tomorrow in most parts of the US and you only bred feeder rats your business would look just like GCB in the same amount of time.

If I post the math, someone is going to tweak the figures until it looks like a good idea to start a rat business, then they are going to try it for themselves... But take a moment and run the costs for yourself... think about how much that nice modern building would cost to buy or build or to rent, then heat it and air condition it, staff it with enough people at a reasonable wage with benefits so they stay with you and then add a delivery truck or two and a driver. Don't forget your office staff. You can better calculate the cost of food and bedding than I can. Don't forget telephone, marketing advertising and sales expenses... And add to that a salary to support your family in a decent life style, taxes and accounting fees, the debt service on all of your loans and a list of things I haven't mentioned... Figure you might be selling feeder rats for around $2.00 per piece... adjust that number depending if you are selling frozen wholesale by the truckload or in small quantity to retail stores and the price as adjusted by size... calculate competition and market saturation and seasonal demand... and you would most likely be way better off owning a pizzeria. 

I did say there are certain business models that work, none provide the rats a decent standard of living, but for the most part the owners aren't living much better than the rats are...

I've had friends get into the pet breeding business and watched them work their way into bankruptcy or in one case a massive heart attack. And one of my friends worked for a large snake importer that did a start up rat mill on site... The losses in the first year alone were in six figures... and I don't think they ever managed to actually sell a single rat because they were still buying truck loads of frozen rats to feed their own snakes. I won't go into what that project turned into but suffice it to say, it rivaled GCB. 

Yes, I realize the numbers should work at first glance... buy two rats for $6.00 each, sell 12 pups for $6.00 each multiply by 1,000,000 times and be rich... seems easy enough... just ask the not so nice folks at GCB.

Seriously, if anybody is reading along... rat breeding is an awful business for many reasons...

And yes I do understand your math regarding the one extra rat that would be bred for the pet trade... but somewhere a python just laid a clutch of 100 eggs and that extra rat that would have been sold to the pet trade has a new place to go along with lots of his friends and many more yet unborn. Or some boa at the pet shop just gets an extra treat... 

If you really want to hurt the rat industry, stop buying food and dry goods and cages... without those money makers stores that only sell pet rats would stop selling rats... that might make a very small difference, but again we might be shooting ourselves in the foot.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I am not strictly talking about places that only breed feeder rats. Many places breed several species. Sunrise Pets, Rainbow Exotics, RodentPro - all those places do make money, including by selling to the chains. I don't know how to convince you of that, oh well.  I'm certainly not wanting to encourage folks to go that route.

I don't shop at pet stores that sell animals, for those very reasons.

PM'ing you a link that is rather interesting and depressing.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Harlan Laboratories breeds rats... it's a spin off of their food and other businesses and I'll bet they make money and I have no doubt that some of their surplus rats wind up somewhere... Most likely as feeders Frozen or alive... I very much agree that there are business models that work, most are spin offs of other more lucrative businesses and most are very niche and most likely would not survive on their own. I'm sure Harlan's rat and mouse business feeds back income for their food and dry good business. If it didn't make a dime, it would still be worth doing to keep labs one stop shopping with them.

http://www.harlan.com/products_and_services/research_models_and_services/research_models

I believe that Rainbow Exotics is also a spin off of a feed business. And if GCB had focused on high markup reptiles instead of feeder rats they may not have been the disaster they were.

I lived on an ancient farm in Germany, they kept pigeons in the attic, for very special occasions the family ate squab. It by the way is very tasty. I don't think anyone knew which ancestor built the pigeon room, but it had been there forever and as I recall the pigeons mostly flew out every day and found their own food... Sure it was practically 100% clear profit and there was no reason to stop doing it but aside from a few free meals it made up 0.00% of the farm's total income. They had also been breeding rabbits on the farm for generations... they sold the pelts and ate the rabbits, that might have made up 0.0001% of the farm's income, but the rabbit food was free, they had the space and a little spare time to do it. When the farmer's wife started building apartment buildings and driving to the farmers market in her new Mercedes to deliver fruits and veggies... the animals and gardens started disappearing. The old farmer, last son of a very old farming family rode his tractor around town until the motor blew and he died a few years later... His grandchildren are doctors and his daughter still has a cat... His wife, now about 90 years old, busies herself developing commercial properties.... Yup, if you have all of the capital and resources it takes animals can be a business... but if you have many acres of prime real estate and the capitol and you want to get rich develop the real estate, don't breed rats.

And lest anyone get confused... it's perfectly fine to see rat mills and sleazy breeders as immoral and abhorrent... just not rich. 

And lastly... it's never fair to put someone down for where they bought their rat or disparage rats from humble beginnings... Everyone that loves and takes care of their rats belongs in our fraternity and every rat, no matter where it comes from is special and deserves love. I'm sure many of Blackthron's rescue rats came from bad places and got a chance when they got adopted from stores and feeder bins, and she's right... they do deserve a second chance.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey guys (rat daddy and blackthorn)...with all do respect can you just stop. Your conversation really has nothing to do with anything on my thread and I suggest if you want to continue just PM eachother through messages. I made this thread to discuss Odo and I feel like your conversation is spammy and unhelpful...If you dont want to talk about Odo or help give me advice related to the subject I have made (which might actually help others that have the same issues as I do with Odo)... i would appreciate it if you keep off topic subjects to a different thread or make your own...I didn't create this thread to have to read through your discussion/arguments. SO please no more, Its becoming very rude. :/


----------



## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

How is odo doing? I've been following this thread, last update he seemed to be doing a lot better!


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

gotchea,

Odo is doing really!! He is quite the silly little guy. I have been putting neosporin on his left ear the last few days, he got it scratched at the pet store it looked like (probably in the scuffle he got into with the other male they attempted to put him with) and hes been itching it a lot so it was getting infected and swollen. I applied the ointment twice daily (morning and night) and his ear is almost completely healed now which is great! He still refuses to be touched/petted, although he loves being talked to and when I have him out on the couch with me enjoys just sitting next to me or sitting on me Lol..but when I reach to pet him or scruffle him he gets squeaky and puffy/tense again.

I also noticed that every time I do let him out on the couch to play hes very puffy and tense for the first 15 mins or so until he relaxes finally. I just dont think his attitude is going to change without getting neutered. I think he would be a very cuddly rat once the hormones arent making him so tense anymore!!! Im going to call tomorrow or wednesday and make his appointment for next week, since I get paid this friday  I think he'll do great, this is the same vet who spayed my bunny and everything went fantastic (hes very knowledgeable about exotics) so I have confidence that he'll come out of surgery just perfect.

After all the research I have done lately, its just not healthy for the ratty to be this TENSE all the time in general and that its probably just in his best interest to get him neutered and lower his hormone levels!

Also, just adding that through all of this he still has never bitten me. A couple times he did *almost* try to, like he put his teeth on my hand/finger for literally half a second but then he stopped instantly and pulled away.

Hes just so silly when I talk to him, he comes over to me all excited and will sit next to me and look up at me all inquisitive as I talk. He really likes that. But, I just cant really touch/cuddle with him at all without him flippping out still. Every once in a while I get a good moment where I can scruffle behind his ear and hes ok with it, but more often than not he reacts the other way haha.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh yea I almost forgot! So as it turns out my husband is actually allergic to Odo's buck grease as well. When my husband picked him up the other day and set him down on the couch for me, he broke out into hives on his arms and maybe after an hour or two they went away. I did some research and came to the conclusion that Odo must have had some buck grease under his nails (from scratching himself) and when my husband held him, his nails ever so slightly scratched his arms enough to cause a reaction. It was so crazy because hubby has never been allergic to OUR boys, but our boys just dont dont produce any buck grease at all (they are the same age as odo but their fur has always been baby soft)...and Odo certainly does so thats the only thing we could think he was allergic to that would be different from our own boys. Good news though is after hes neutered he wont be producing the grease anymore and thus hubby can hold him without worrying about getting scratched and hived up!


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Peace, Mrs. Tefee, we already have, albeit not as soon as we should have. Apologies.

Neutering will do him a world of good (and it will deal with the allergies/buck grease thing, you're correct).  I'm super allergic to unneutered boys, but I'm ok with neutered ones (they - and females - still make me react, but not nearly as badly).


----------



## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I'm so glad he is doing better. I am glad he has you, I don't know if I could handle an aggressive rat very well. I am a believer in going with what your gut tells you. I look forward to hearing how he is after his neuter.People always tend to get off topic on this forum. It's a bad habit we all have


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, I have been following Odo's progress, aside from that side conversation I helped clutter your thread with, and again sorry about that, sometimes we get carried away...

As to Odo, the original topic, *If he's not biting you*, I think it would be helpful to try and get as much hands on as you can and work towards handling him more. There's nothing wrong with him resisting, he may be just a little alpha confused and squeaking and protesting being manhandled is going to naturally upset him, but the more you handle him and the more he sees you as his pack leader the faster his hormones will go down and the sooner he will feel better... you don't have to wait for the neuter to start fixing him and making him feel better. Sure you can wait for the neuter, but why not experiment a little in the mean time as long as it's safe?


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks guys for understanding! I know we can get off topic sometimes but it was just becoming a bit too much!! 

gotchea: Yea I was really not expecting to go through this much with our new ratty, but I know that he would be better off here than anywhere else (especially that pet store!).

Blackthorn: I totally agree, I think that the neuter will be better for everyone here, including little Odo!

Rat Daddy: I am handling him several hours a day every day (I let my ratties free range/play every day! Mostly because I am sitting on the couch anyways so might as well have the ratties with me and get some bonding time in as well! haha) and after the neuter Im sure that he might still be a little butt sometimes, but for the safety of my other boys (they are my little heart rats <3 ) Im going to take every precaution I can first so that their introductions can go hopefully, as smoothly as possible. I plan on neutering Odo next week and after about a month Im going to work on intros with my boys! I do believe that with the neuter, Odo will just be that much more relaxed as well without all that extra testosterone running through his veins anyways, as I read that tense/stressed rats also have shorter lifespans and that neutering can help reduce those kinds of health issues as well (along with lowering cancer risks etc). I think that neutering Odo will bring more positive outcomes in general and these positives out weigh the risks in my opinion.

Im excited to let everyone know how he does after the neuter. I have full confidence in my vet that everything will go just great  I just want Odo to have a happier, stress free life and it would just melt my heart if I can see him finally completely relaxed so he can play and popcorn happily with my boys! Lol That is my overall goal here.


----------



## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

I'm very sorry for not staying active on here... I got grounded for a week. It's wonderful to see that he's doing better though and I hope a neuter can relieve some of that stress he has. Poor baby... It's wonderful to see that he's doing better with you too! I would keep doing everything you have been after the neuter and hope that he starts calmin down soon. You've been doing a wonderful job judging by his reactions and I'm glad to see you fighting to help him. Please keep up updated on your gorgeous boy!


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Glad to hear he is still doing well.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

Hello everyone! Just wanting to update quickly...Odo is doing well, hes still the same fuzzy tensed up ball of rat Lol. I have his appointment made to be neutered next thursday, Im excited for him and Im positive everything will go great! Hmmm I cant think of anything new really. I noticed he might have a cyst on is front upper arm area, most likely due to when he got in a fight with the other male at the pet store, its not very big so Im just waiting to see if it goes away on its own. Other than that he still likes playing on the couch and exploring! He also continues to throws a fit though when I have to pick up him and take him back to his cage Haha..silly Odo!


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

So, the round mass on his arm is still there. It doesnt seem any smaller and if it has grown its not by a lot. Its bigger than a pea and smaller than a marble and feels rather firm and it doesnt really feel attached to anything. Still not sure what this is! Today I am going to call the vet's office and ask about whether or not they could remove/treat the mass while hes under for the neuter at the same time, because it would be nice to not have to take him in twice if it ends up being a tumor rather than a cyst...

Otherwise Odo is still being his little silly self!


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Good luck to Odo! It's in two days how nerve wrecking


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

Odos surgery went really well! As it turns out he had an abcess (Im happy it wasn't a tumor!) and the vet got it all cleaned up for him. Also, he got some eye drops for his eye ,the cloudyness was because he got it sratched so Im happy it wasnt cataracts as well! My little guy has had a rough day, so far he has quite the appetite though, hes been eating a lot since the surgery (and drinking water!) and I dont know how normal that is. Its cute though because he keeps half falling asleep mid-bite haha. I just gave him his dose of meds for the night and im hoping he will finally go to bed in a few minutes now!


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It can just be a side effect of anaesthetic or meds. Hoping for a swift recovery into a sweet boy.


----------



## MrsTefee (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:

This might be the last update for a few weeks until I update again when I introduce odo finally to my other two boys in about a month or so..but OH MY GOSH I cant BELIEVE how relaxed Odo is now since the surgery. I can pet and cuddle odo now and he almost falls asleep right in my arms while before he used to tense up and puff up and even scream at me from the slightest touch. I cant believe how much happier he is!! He didn't even puff up at my husband when he got pets from him! And its not even been a whole week yet...I think its only going to get better from here!
All his surgical wounds are healing very nicely and even his eye is looking better with the daily drops. I am so happy that he can relax now and I can really start to see his true personality guys. Its amazing! So happy for Odo!! He truely is a sweet heart : )


----------

