# advice on separating rats



## dannitree (Sep 7, 2015)

Hi. I have 4 male rats named Merry, Pippin, Neville and Scabbers. Merry and Pippin I got first in about July last year. Then Neville and Scabbers in about Novemeber. They all have lived together in a big 4 storey cage with no accidents so far. I was told they were about 12 weeks old when I got them.

Pippin is alpha and Merry is usually second in command. 

Recently I have noticed wounds appearing on Merrys head neck and shoulders. I first thought it was mites because he did seem to be itching at them areas a lot. However I took Merry to the vets to confirm this and the vet said looking at the wounds it was clear it is bite marks as there were very clear teeth patterns. I saw this confirmed when the rats were free roaming together in my room and Neville bit Merrys ear unprovoked. Ive never seen this happen before. And all other wounds were inflicted at night in the cage. 

Neville and Merry I have seen squabbling before however theyve never hurt each other. None of the other rats argue which is why I think it is just Neville who has been inflicting the wounds. I have also watched them for a couple hours at a time, both in the cage and out of the cage and it has only ever been them two who fight. I assume the arguments are because Neville is trying to readjust the hierarchy because he is now old enough and big enough to challenge Merry. (He would never challenge the alpha as Pippin is quite a lot bigger than all of them and wont take any nonsense) And Neville does not argue with scabbers either who is quite a bit smaller than him. 

There have never been any wounds on Neville. 

I think it is clear that Neville and Merry have to be separated as the wounds on Merry have been appearing every night after I have been asleep. And I do have another cage that could house 2 rats. 

I have a few questions about how I should go about this and whether is a permanent thing or could be worked around. 

First if I am to separate them should I move Neville or Merry to a new cage? Does it make a difference who is moved?
Should I also move one of the other rats with them so they are not lonely? Is it fair to readjust the hierarchy for everyone?
If so who should be paired with who? Should Neville be paired with scabbers so that he is confident he is in charge? Or with Pippin who is alpha so that he wont be tempted to fight or bully?

Will this be a permanent thing or is there techniques for getting them to live peacefully together again?

any advice would be welcome


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## dannitree (Sep 7, 2015)

new development

i separated Merry from Neville. And also put Scabbers in with Neville to give him company, leaving Merry and Pippin together. When I woke up in the morning Merry has 2 new bite marks behind his ear... does this mean Pippin is also beating Merry up? Was I right about it being Neville in the first place?

I have now changed the pairs and Merry is now with Scabbers who is significantly smaller than him. 

This is really distressing as I have no idea what to do next. 

Any advice would be very welcome. Please throw your ideas at me.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

dannitree said:


> new developmenti separated Merry from Neville. And also put Scabbers in with Neville to give him company, leaving Merry and Pippin together. When I woke up in the morning Merry has 2 new bite marks behind his ear... does this mean Pippin is also beating Merry up? Was I right about it being Neville in the first place?I have now changed the pairs and Merry is now with Scabbers who is significantly smaller than him. This is really distressing as I have no idea what to do next. Any advice would be very welcome. Please throw your ideas at me.


By separating them you created a new hierarchy among 2 groups of rats. There is no way of knowing what rat(s) were responsible for the wounds when they were together unless of course you witnessed the attacks. The best guess is the alpha rat attacking the next more dominant rat who is challenging him. I would put them back together if the cage they were in is big enough for 4 rats. You might have to neuter 1 or more of your rats. 

I personally always neuter my rats as what is happening here is quite common among male rats. 

How big is your cage you used for all 4 males?


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## dannitree (Sep 7, 2015)

Gribouilli said:


> By separating them you created a new hierarchy among 2 groups of rats. There is no way of knowing what rat(s) were responsible for the wounds when they were together unless of course you witnessed the attacks. The best guess is the alpha rat attacking the next more dominant rat who is challenging him. I would put them back together if the cage they were in is big enough for 4 rats. You might have to neuter 1 or more of your rats.
> 
> I personally always neuter my rats as what is happening here is quite common among male rats.
> 
> How big is your cage you used for all 4 males?


I know a new hierarchy has been created but it could not be helped. It is not good for Merry to be there any more since he is being attacked. It is also not good for him to be alone either, meaning he had to be taken out with a friend. Putting them back together I feel would not be a good idea at this moment in time. 

I have witnessed one attack between Merry and Neville detailed above. But now pippin the alpha seems to have joined in attacking Merry. I never thought it might be due to the hierarchy changing though. thankyou for that insight i will keep it in mind. 

Neutering is something I have thought about but have come to the conclusion it is not really an option for me as I would prefer not to see my rats go through that ordeal. It may not be everyones choice to leave them that way but it is the decision I have made. 

Do you have any ideas on reintroducing or if that is an option?

The cage they have all been living in so far is a 4 story cage well above waist height off the floor. (i dont have exact measurements) I was told in the pet shop and at the vets that this would comfortably house 4 rats.


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## peace (Jun 26, 2015)

i would say to put Neville and Pippin together and watch them closely, see if they get into it, and then put Merry and Scabbers together... you're gonna have to watch everyone closely... it's up to you though.... i think neutering is a good option.. it's pretty expensive though


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The fact you’ve seen this happening most on free range isn’t surprising. When bucks have a bit of a hierarchy dispute going on it is normally worse in a larger space as the challenger gets a bit more confident and cocky as they know they can get away with more.

My first step when dealing with this sounds like the opposite to what most humans nautral approach is, however it often works and resolves things without the need for neutering so is well worth a shot. 

First off have a read of the carrier method of intros (stickied on the behaviour bit of the forum or you can find it in the behaviour section of my website). You can also use this to go back to basics, so effectively reintro your boys then slowly build up the space they have available. First off move them into the smallest cage you’ve got, or if you’ve not got a spare small cage then split off one section of your main cage. This should be bare but for substrate (use substrate over fleece even if you normall use this), they should have a couple of water bottles and food should be scattered over the floor not in bowls. This creates a small space for them to work out whose boss, your alphas control will be much stronger in this space so it will help him restablish himself and the smaller space actually cuts down on a lot of the injuries. Give them at least a few days in the small space, then you can add a hammock if they are behaving well. Then it’s a case of gradually increasing the space they have available and adding in toys and sleeping palces (avoiding any enclosed nests or similar with only one or two entrances).

If this doesn’t help settle things down again then it’s a case of tracking down the main culprit and neutering, bearing in mind that the main culprit is not always the one doing the biting.


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## dannitree (Sep 7, 2015)

Isamurat said:


> The fact you’ve seen this happening most on free range isn’t surprising. When bucks have a bit of a hierarchy dispute going on it is normally worse in a larger space as the challenger gets a bit more confident and cocky as they know they can get away with more.
> 
> My first step when dealing with this sounds like the opposite to what most humans nautral approach is, however it often works and resolves things without the need for neutering so is well worth a shot.
> 
> ...


Thankyou this really helps. I will let merry get healed and then try this method.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Neutering would of course be ideal, but I know it's not what everyone wants to do/can afford to do.
Maybe it's worth leaving them as they are for a week or two, let them rest, heal and settle and then do a whole new introduction. Start right at the beginning and hopefully wipe the slate clean!


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

I vote for neutering the aggressive ones. I have had 6 neutered males and will never own an intact one again. 
I think it is something you have to be aware of when you get males.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Most boys don't need neutering, though that's not to say that neutering isn't beneficial for health reasons. If you get a good feel for cage dynamics, who would / does make a good alpha and are able to be a strong assertive handler yourself you rarely have to neuter bucks. it does help if you get them from a good breeder who selects for temperament and health too. I've kept bucks for years prior to switching to girls last year and had to neuter 2 for group behavioural reasons, most have resolved with the above method.

Its very much a grey area as to wether a neuter is the right or wrong thing for the rat, theres a lot of benefits to the rat but if your vet is rubbish surgery can be complicated and lots of issues can arise. If you've got an experienced vet things useually go well but you do never know. Its also worth not rushing in to neuter the obvious rat. I've seen cases where the real problem rat was actually the one getting beaten up, as they were pushing there luck and not submitting properly, neuter the wrong rat and that rat can rise up to be alpha and your screwed as they are not a settled balanced individual. Actually both times I've neutered for group heirachy disputes its been as much to promote the right rat to Alpha status as well as calming down the affected rat in one case. I've neutered for other reasons too but generally I had little issues with the bucks that couldn't be resolved with a bit of back to basics and firm handling.


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