# So..um..I guess my two rats didn't get along well after all.



## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

If you have seen my earlier two threads on my bad experience with getting back into rats again, yesterday takes the cake.

My 2nd thread was on getting my 2 month old male rat and his skittish behavior (immersion wasn't working). He seemed to get along fine with the older one, Pepper, except sometimes I would see the young one challenge Pepper only to be pinned down and forcibly cleaned. Nothing too out of the ordinary, right? So I go out for the day at about 9 AM and do not return until around 7 PM. Check on the rat boys and what do I see, but Pepper with a massive right eye injury (his entire eye is now red and 'popped' looking, whereas normally he has black eyes) and scratches all over his body; the little one is lying dead in the corner and there is blood and the reddish rat saliva all over the side and bottom of the tank. It looked like Pepper was nibbling on the little guy's ears. So I have given Pepper a clean off and tried to clean out his eye as best I can. He is sitting on my chest as I type this with his head buried into my armpit, shivering. 

Any idea from the long timers can cause such a deadly fight? There was zero indication that there was trouble. They didn't fight over food. They didn't really do anything more than the usual play fight. I am shocked by all of this as the rats I had several years ago were very peaceful. 

Then there is Pepper's eye. I won't be able to take him to a vet until Tuesday (there goes the new cage probably)...could he possibly now be blind in one eye from this? 

I just cannot see Pepper, who is so laid back, having started this. But yet - there is the age difference, I just don't know what to say ??? ???


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## alexn (Sep 30, 2012)

I haven't seen your other threads - was this the first time they'd been introduced in the main cage? Was the cage clean? Had they been introduced on neutral territory a few times?

Bear in mind that your new boy will have tons of energy, and be keen to assert himself. While this is usually shrugged off, all it takes is for the established boy to finally have had enough, and he could be a little rougher. My thoughts are that it was this, combined with a little misfortune. If one has it in for the other you would have noticed, and chances are you would only have one rat now. From what you've said, it sounds more to me like he was flipped/pinned, and accidentally caught his eye (or the other boy accidentally hit it). 

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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

I've read your other threads..... Since you haven't been having the best of luck with your rats. Maybe you should just stick with one rat for a while. At least, until the surviving rat, Pepper, heals up. 
BTW even rats that "seem" laid back..... Can actually be the aggressor. 

My girl killed both her sisters and severely injured 2 other, larger/older rats. With people she's the sweetest rat I've ever seen. She was even fine with her cage mates for a while. Then something happened or she just snapped and she attacked/killed. Nobody knows why, but it happened. She only became aggressive when no one was looking. 
I opted not to try the immersion method with my girl. I didn't want to stress her and I felt it could do more harm than good. My girl is a wonderful pet, but she'll never play nice with other rats. She'll remain a lone rat.

Since your rat has killed a cage mate..... You may have to consider letting him be a lone rat as well. You can still try to find him a new friend, but be prepared for the worse.


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## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

Sorry for your loss but have to say I am not entirely surprised. If they were still in the 10 gallon tank together that you mentioned it is just not enough room for 2 males to live happily in at any time, they really should have been seperate until you had a proper cage. They need to have enough room for themselves and to get away from eachother when they want to be alone, or when a scuffle happens so one can go to one level and the other on a different level, the 10 gallon just doesn't allow that. They could have had a simple fight over sleeping space, food, or dominance and then they had no where to be alone and cool off so the fights presisted and since the little one was a lot smaller the bigger male managed to kill him, could have been unintentional but the smaller one would have been more fragile. As said young rats are a lot more energetic and he could have been trying to just see where he stands with his dominance and it could have just pushed Pepper to far. Peppers eye was probably something from the young one defending himself.


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## FiMarie (Jan 19, 2013)

When my Watson died I wanted his cagemate, Tybalt, to have company so I got two babies. They were about the same age as your 2 month old when I started introducing them. Things were going alright and everybody was getting along fine then out of nowhere Tybalt grabbed one of the babies by his neck, bit down and killed him. It all happened in about 30 seconds. I've done a LOT of research since then and I've found that a rat under 12 weeks may be small enough to be seen as prey by an adult rat. Also, their skin isn't thick enough yet to protect them from attacks. It could have been that he was seen as prey but if they were still in the 10 gallon it was probably just a matter of time before something serious happened regardless of how well they were getting along.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

I think it was the age difference, and yes, also maybe the living arrangements. The little guy liked to challenge Pepper when he was sleeping, etc and maybe he got under his skin. 

I probably will get him another cagemate, but it will be an older rat, one closer to his age, and I will introduce them slowly. This will be after I get a new cage. 

What worries me is the damage he did to Pepper. I am about 90% sure he is probably now forever blind in his right eye (no longer bleeding, but its shrunken looking and he doesn't blink that eye as often as his good eye), and I've noticed that one of his back legs are now 'bulged' - like it was bitten hard, but I didn't notice it till this morning. He is also walking funny, and I am having to put his water bottle right in his face to give him a drink. Worries me that Pepper himself won't make it.


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## RedFraggle (Jun 4, 2012)

You need to get Pepper to a vet Daniel. I'm not meaning to sound harsh, you have had a shitty time through bad luck and possibly poor accomodation but we all make mistakes sometimes, but he is quite possibly in substantial pain and Tuesday isn't soon enough. If it were my rat he would have gone to a vet immediately.


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## aripatsim (Jul 26, 2012)

You really need to take Pepper to the vet then...


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

OK I was able to take Pepper. Vet said the eye will probably heal, I guess he did the worst damage to his leg. Vet says he bit Pepper's leg very deep so the leg won't heal till maybe the weekend. (Pepper has been dragging it) Vet also pointed out that his tail was injured - which I didn't see until he pointed it out, and there was a chance the injured part may fall off at some point.

So, it wasn't as bad as I had thought. I thought for sure he was going to blind in one eye. His next cagemate (which I will get this weekend, along with a new cage) will be introduced slowly so this doesn't happen again. 

I am most worried about his appetite. He has been eating only very minimally.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Daniel said:


> OK I was able to take Pepper. Vet said the eye will probably heal, I guess he did the worst damage to his leg. Vet says he bit Pepper's leg very deep so the leg won't heal till maybe the weekend. (Pepper has been dragging it) Vet also pointed out that his tail was injured - which I didn't see until he pointed it out, and there was a chance the injured part may fall off at some point.
> 
> So, it wasn't as bad as I had thought. I thought for sure he was going to blind in one eye. His next cagemate (which I will get this weekend, along with a new cage) will be introduced slowly so this doesn't happen again.
> 
> I am most worried about his appetite. He has been eating only very minimally.


Just a thought. Wouldn't it be better, for Pepper, to let him have a couple of weeks to recover? He's been through so much. He might appreciate a bit of one on one TLC.


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## Debra (Apr 28, 2013)

If you do get a new rat this weekend, it will need to be quarantined for 2 weeks.

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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Daize said:


> Just a thought. Wouldn't it be better, for Pepper, to let him have a couple of weeks to recover? He's been through so much. He might appreciate a bit of one on one TLC.


Well what I meant was I am going to get a cagemate and a cage BUT Pepper will stay where he is for a little while. The newbie will be in the new cage alone until then.

He's so out of it still he doesn't want to see me much, he just wants to sleep and eat a little. He has really only been eating non standard food like boca burgers, but anything to get him to eat.


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## Eden10 (Aug 11, 2012)

Yes I would def monitor Pepper for a good while before doing intros to another new rattie....I've been thru my fair share of rats fighting & not getting along....I had a very hormonal male who caused me a lot of issues & injuries to my babies!

It could be the pain & trauma just coming out causing him to lose his appetite...perhaps try baby food, baby oatmeal, scrambled eggs for some protein...plenty of good nourishing food. & yes lots of TLC...if he doesn't improve after a while then he may need another vet visit.

Good luck!


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Did the vet give you any meds for Pepper? It sounds like he should at least be on a pain med until his legs heals up a bit.

I'd also hold off on buying a new baby. You don't want to have a new rat in your house until Pepper is well and good. Right now it's best to focus all of your attention on Pepper, make sure he's all better and things are good between you and him, and then get your new boy and keep them separated and introduce slowly. You never want to overwhelm yourself in these situations, and new rat + sick and injured rat is not a good combo for you, as their owner. Especially given your bad luck so far.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

No meds, he just said he needed rest and to be left alone for awhile (my vet is not really a rat expert so I will probably switch in the future. I would have liked to give him something but I cannot afford a second trip for awhile).

But the vet was right. His tail, at the part after the wound (about 3/4 to the edge) to the edge of his tail, is starting to turn black and 'crispy'. I know people here will say to take him to the vet again but I cannot do that and knowing him he'll just offer to put him down. When I asked their office for advice, they suggest neosporin at the tip. He doesn't seem to be in any pain, in fact his spirits have been up and his bad foot is healing. His appetite seems to be back and his sweet personality is starting to appear again. (I think the vet freaked him out. He and his brothers seem to have overhandled, perhaps by kids in the pet store).


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Well...my intended break between getting new rats didn't last long. A neighbor of mine in my apartment complex that knew I liked rats (she saw me taking Pepper up when I bought him) just asked me to take 2 male weeners and I did (she had wanted me to take TEN). (I believe these are surplus feeders? I will have to ask. I know this lady has a snake of some kind) I'll have a thread about my new boys soon, but they are being kept in a new cage in a different room from Pepper and introductions will start once Pepper is feeling better. I checked up on Pepper again a few minutes ago and he is back to cleaning himself, another sign of improvement.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Good Luck with your new babies. Hopefully things will turn out better this time. 

It's good to hear that Pepper is starting to feel better.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Pepper seems to be chewing off part of his toes from his 'bad' foot...not a good sign, but I remember I had a hamster who did the same thing with her entire foot ! She had a 'peg leg' or a 'stub' but was otherwise normal and got along fine that way...I hope it isn't that bad with Pepper, but we'll see.

One thing after another with these rats! (see my post on the breathing problems with one my newest one) Yikes.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I had a baby mouse whose tail started turning black from the end... I treated it with iodine daily. The black part fell off, but the rest of the tail healed up.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> I had a baby mouse whose tail started turning black from the end... I treated it with iodine daily. The black part fell off, but the rest of the tail healed up.


OK thanks, I will try that as well. Rat supply run tomorrow or Friday.


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