# Confused...litter vs. bedding...pee smell...litter box training, etc



## Pindlelou (Jul 26, 2017)

Hello, I have yet another question. I see people talking about litter and people talking about bedding. Are these terms used interchangeably? Secondly, I will have a large multi-level/floor cage. I'm reading that fleece will do nothing to counteract odor (since my rat is not litter box trained). So if I don't use fleece, what do I use on each floor? Do I spread aspen shavings or Fresh News or Carefresh all over each level?? Don't they just kick it out of the bars and onto the floor? 

My main concern is odor control (and of course health of the rat). People talking about litter training...but doesn't that only really work for pooping? Don't just pee wherever? Because it's the pee (ammonia) smell that bothers me the most. When I had rats before, they would stink up the cage (and it was a huge cage for only 2 - 4 rats) almost IMMEDIATELY after I cleaned it with that pee/ammonia smell. Of course then I was using fleece.

thanks for your help!!!!
Pindlelou


----------



## nriii (Jun 28, 2017)

Litter vs bedding is definitely not the same. Litter is what you put in the litter box, and bedding it what you use on the floor of their cage. If you're trying to litterbox train them, the two should be pretty clearly differentiated (my girls are 100% litterbox trained, but I tried to give them a diving bin full of shredded paper that ended up being too similar to their litter and they pooped in it thinking it was another toilet! Haven't had a single problem like that since switching the diving bin to fleece scraps)

Yes, you can only really litter train rats to poop in the litterbox, but putting a smooth, flat stone in their litter box will encourage them to pee there since they like peeing on flat surfaces. Their pee definitely smells, but I use fleece liners and wash them weekly as well as removing the liners long enough to wipe the levels down and replace them, and their cage never smells too terrible. 

You can use pellet bedding, fleece, carefresh, etc, but if you're worried about kicking it out of the cage, you can always get either guard liners (depending on your cage, CN/FN makes them for their cages) or you could get a cement mixing bin to cover the bottom of your cage.


----------



## rottengirl (Mar 16, 2016)

Pindlelou said:


> Hello, I have yet another question. I see people talking about litter and people talking about bedding. Are these terms used interchangeably?


No, they are not - however - I know people that use litter instead of bedding.



Pindlelou said:


> Secondly, I will have a large multi-level/floor cage. I'm reading that fleece will do nothing to counteract odor (since my rat is not litter box trained). So if I don't use fleece, what do I use on each floor? Do I spread aspen shavings or Fresh News or Carefresh all over each level?? Don't they just kick it out of the bars and onto the floor?


You can use fleece effectively if you add an absorbent material underneath (towels are fair but can be risky if your girls chew at them, I recommend the UHaul pads if you can get your hands on them). Fleece on its own is otherwise pointless and harmful. 
I personally use Aspen bedding. They will kick it out of the cage unless you have a pan with edges like this. 



Pindlelou said:


> My main concern is odor control (and of course health of the rat). People talking about litter training...but doesn't that only really work for pooping? Don't just pee wherever? Because it's the pee (ammonia) smell that bothers me the most. When I had rats before, they would stink up the cage (and it was a huge cage for only 2 - 4 rats) almost IMMEDIATELY after I cleaned it with that pee/ammonia smell. Of course then I was using fleece.


For odor control, I would suggest using Aspen and changing it once every 5 days. You're right - rats can be poop trained but not pee. They use it for marking the cage, so you can't prevent that from happening.


----------



## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

Fleece definitely has a few benefits. Firstly, the edges don't fray so you don't need to worry about loose threads like with other fabrics. Fleece is reusable so it can save money and be lest waste. Also, fleece is 100% synthetic and does not absorb moisture, which means it remains dry. Urine will wick through the fleece to whatever's underneath, leaving a soft, dry surface for your rats to walk on. Being that the pee just pools underneath the fleece, using fleece alone is no better for odors than using nothing at all. Placing something absorbent under the fleece will help disperse the urine and reduce the smells a little. This can add another day or two to the number of days required between cleanings.

Your bedding choices will depend a bit on the design of your cage. In my cage, I lay a couple inches of a loose substrate (currently aspen) on the floor of the cage and then I have reusable cloth mats on the levels. I make the mats with a layer of Uhaul padding between two layers of fleece. I swap out the mats every 3-4 days. The aspen on the floor of the cage lasts at least a full week before needing changing.


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Generally:

Litter = fills the litter box (if there is one)

Bedding = fills the cage floor

Liners = covers the cage floor

Litter and bedding can be the exact same stuff but the purpose is different. Liners and bedding will serve the same purpose but in a different way. Whether someone chooses bedding vs. liners and to litter train at all is their own personal preference, though litter training is recommended when using liners over bedding. I use fleece liners and have my rats litter trained. 

Using an absorbent layer under the fleece is recommended (like a Uhaul pad). The amount of urine that ends up in the cage isn't enough to stink, at least it takes my 6 rats a week before I smell anything, and that's only if I lean in close. Rats don't stink as much as most other small animals. So with litter trained rats and a proper cleaning regime, you shouldn't have odor issues. But if your rats aren't litter trained you can expect more odor than you'd get with a good bedding option.


----------



## shortnsweet33 (Jul 30, 2017)

I have a question similar to this. I'm planning on getting the Petco Rat Manor and a pair of boys (not sure when, currently doing research!). I plan to litter train them and use carefresh natural bedding in the bottom of the cage. In the litter pan, I definitely want something different and was considering newspaper. My only issue here is that I know the wire ramps/shelves cause bumblefoot, and was planning on covering those with folded over newspaper and securing it with clips (I plan to use fleece on the shelves once they're a bit better potty trained). But then I realized I can't use newspaper in the litter pan AND on the shelves or they might get confused...

So, what type of litter would you guys recommend for the litter pan? Or should I try to use fleece on the shelves right away?


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

shortnsweet33 said:


> I have a question similar to this. I'm planning on getting the Petco Rat Manor and a pair of boys (not sure when, currently doing research!). I plan to litter train them and use carefresh natural bedding in the bottom of the cage. In the litter pan, I definitely want something different and was considering newspaper. My only issue here is that I know the wire ramps/shelves cause bumblefoot, and was planning on covering those with folded over newspaper and securing it with clips (I plan to use fleece on the shelves once they're a bit better potty trained). But then I realized I can't use newspaper in the litter pan AND on the shelves or they might get confused...
> 
> So, what type of litter would you guys recommend for the litter pan? Or should I try to use fleece on the shelves right away?


A pellet style litter is best. Some use yesterdays news, I use fresh news, and others have had success with a type of walnut-shell type of litter. And if you wanted something reusable (though that means you will have to wash them yourself) then I've also heard that those cheap transparent aquarium rocks you can get at the dollar store make very effective litter, especially since rats already are attracted to peeing on smooth rocks. I also feel obligated to add that wire ramps aren't the real cause of bumblefoot, rather it's unclean surfaces that introduce bacteria into an wound that leads to bumblefoot, and some believe that a wire floor will encourage the growth of bacteria (harder to clean) and even that it will somehow cut up your rats' feet. But really, wire floors aren't a risk as long as you keep them clean, like any other surface of the cage. I used to have 2 rat manors and never had an issue with irritated feets and I just sprayed the ramps down with some waterXvinegar mixture and wiped them, or wiped them with an unscented baby wipe for a quick clean. I did that once a day and it did the trick. That said, there's nothing wrong with covering them as you're planning to do, I actually do encourage it! Covering any surface of the cage is very beneficial for preventing rats from walking through their own dirt. Just thought it was worth clarifying since it's really a very wide-spread misconception about bumblefoot in the rat world.


----------



## shortnsweet33 (Jul 30, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> A pellet style litter is best. Some use yesterdays news, I use fresh news, and others have had success with a type of walnut-shell type of litter. And if you wanted something reusable (though that means you will have to wash them yourself) then I've also heard that those cheap transparent aquarium rocks you can get at the dollar store make very effective litter, especially since rats already are attracted to peeing on smooth rocks. I also feel obligated to add that wire ramps aren't the real cause of bumblefoot, rather it's unclean surfaces that introduce bacteria into an wound that leads to bumblefoot, and some believe that a wire floor will encourage the growth of bacteria (harder to clean) and even that it will somehow cut up your rats' feet. But really, wire floors aren't a risk as long as you keep them clean, like any other surface of the cage. I used to have 2 rat manors and never had an issue with irritated feets and I just sprayed the ramps down with some waterXvinegar mixture and wiped them, or wiped them with an unscented baby wipe for a quick clean. I did that once a day and it did the trick. That said, there's nothing wrong with covering them as you're planning to do, I actually do encourage it! Covering any surface of the cage is very beneficial for preventing rats from walking through their own dirt. Just thought it was worth clarifying since it's really a very wide-spread misconception about bumblefoot in the rat world.


Thank you so much for your answer! I do think I'll look into a separate bedding for litter so I can start out with newspaper on my wire shelves and change that daily. We get the paper daily so I feel like that will work out well until I decide to make fleece liners for the shelves. I'm glad to hear the wire ramps are okay as long as they're cleaned regularly, since I was hoping to just cover the shelves (I'll be able to get more liners per yard of fleece that way). For the rocks, how often do you have to clean them? Do you have to boil them each time you clean them or would a vinegar/water solution be sufficient?


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

shortnsweet33 said:


> Thank you so much for your answer! I do think I'll look into a separate bedding for litter so I can start out with newspaper on my wire shelves and change that daily. We get the paper daily so I feel like that will work out well until I decide to make fleece liners for the shelves. I'm glad to hear the wire ramps are okay as long as they're cleaned regularly, since I was hoping to just cover the shelves (I'll be able to get more liners per yard of fleece that way). For the rocks, how often do you have to clean them? Do you have to boil them each time you clean them or would a vinegar/water solution be sufficient?


During my weekly cage cleaning I would use a bristle brush and scrub with some dish soap, and afterward leave the cage in the scalding hot shower to rinse for five minutes. Very quick and easy. Besides that, the daily baby wipe or waterXvinegar spritz n' wipe worked well to keep them essentially pristine. I never had to use anything more than vinegarXwater or dish soap with hot water from the tap to clean my cages.


----------



## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

shortnsweet33 said:


> For the rocks, how often do you have to clean them? Do you have to boil them each time you clean them or would a vinegar/water solution be sufficient?


Coffeebean mentioned using rocks in two different ways and I just wanted to clarify.

Aquarium rocks/gravel can be used as litter in the litter box instead of a disposable option like recycled newspaper pellet litter (Fresh News, Marshall's Ferret litter, So Phresh, etc.). The benefit of aquarium rocks would be that it is reusable. ...but it would be a fair amount of extra work. First, you would have to sift or hand-pick out the poops, then you would have to wash the rocks and maybe run them through a vinegar/water mixture. I wouldn't think you would need to boil them every time, but you would probably need to occasionally. Because rocks are not at all absorbent, I imagine this litter option would probably need to be changed more often that other choices. 

A pee rock is a smooth stone large enough for a rat to stand on that gets place inside the litter box. For whatever reason, this stone will help encourage your rats to pee in the litter box more often. They'll still probably pee everywhere else, but hopefully just a little less. A smooth stone is recommended because it will be easier to clean. If it has lots of texture and cracks and stuff, pee will fill these voids and it will start to smell bad and be harder to clean. I wash the pee rock when I change the litter (every 3-4 days, more if necessary). I scrub in with hot water and a fragrance-free soap. I will often spray it down with a water/vinegar mixture and then place it back in the litter box once dry. A pee rock does not replace the need for some sort of litter substrate, it would be in addition to litter.


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Oh oops, I thought they were asking about the ramps not the rocks so if my last post made no sense that's why.


----------



## shortnsweet33 (Jul 30, 2017)

CorbinDallasMyMan said:


> Coffeebean mentioned using rocks in two different ways and I just wanted to clarify.
> 
> Aquarium rocks/gravel can be used as litter in the litter box instead of a disposable option like recycled newspaper pellet litter (Fresh News, Marshall's Ferret litter, So Phresh, etc.). The benefit of aquarium rocks would be that it is reusable. ...but it would be a fair amount of extra work. First, you would have to sift or hand-pick out the poops, then you would have to wash the rocks and maybe run them through a vinegar/water mixture. I wouldn't think you would need to boil them every time, but you would probably need to occasionally. Because rocks are not at all absorbent, I imagine this litter option would probably need to be changed more often that other choices.
> 
> A pee rock is a smooth stone large enough for a rat to stand on that gets place inside the litter box. For whatever reason, this stone will help encourage your rats to pee in the litter box more often. They'll still probably pee everywhere else, but hopefully just a little less. A smooth stone is recommended because it will be easier to clean. If it has lots of texture and cracks and stuff, pee will fill these voids and it will start to smell bad and be harder to clean. I wash the pee rock when I change the litter (every 3-4 days, more if necessary). I scrub in with hot water and a fragrance-free soap. I will often spray it down with a water/vinegar mixture and then place it back in the litter box once dry. A pee rock does not replace the need for some sort of litter substrate, it would be in addition to litter.


Oh okay, I've heard about pee rocks. I think I'll find one. If I get a smooth stone from like a decorative set of stones (not from outside, but I think we have some from like a craft store or something in a bowl) would that work? I would thoroughly clean it beforehand.


----------



## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

shortnsweet33 said:


> If I get a smooth stone from like a decorative set of stones (not from outside, but I think we have some from like a craft store or something in a bowl) would that work? I would thoroughly clean it beforehand.


You don't necessarily need to purchase them from a store. I use landscaping rocks from under the deck. I scrub them really well then put them in boiling water before using them in the cage.


----------

