# Just ranting.



## Xerneas

Needed somewhere to get this off my chest.

I have been openly a lesbian since I was probably...ten or eleven. I prefer not to disclose my age on the internet but I am much older than that now. Thankfully, I have an accepting and supportive family and friends. Thankfully, I now have a supportive school (was bullied before) that has never judged me and always welcomed me and sports its own LGBT advocacy and staff/students. I am beyond grateful for this when I see how much worse it could have been but unfortunately it still doesn't save me from having to wake up and see more stories of LGBT hate and face the fact that I can only get married in 13 states and know that there are people who hate me for absolutely no reason and constantly face the slurs and the threats and what else have you.

It's heartwarming to see coming out stories and hear songs supporting same-sex marriage and see pride campaigns until it hits you that it's terrible that ANYONE, especially children, has to muster up the courage to be themselves in front of other people that would be so cruel to another human being and spend days in fear and worry that they might get kicked out of their home, or bullied, or constantly wonder if they can get married in the future. It's sick that anyone has to come out, or wear a rainbow shirt and wave a rainbow flag and fight for their rights in 2013. 

I hate that someone can throw insults at another human being, someone's friend, someone's son or daughter, a living thing that feels pain and happiness and cries and smiles and is all the same skeleton and organs and blood underneath without a second thought just on the basis of their sexual or gender identity - something so insignificant we often wouldn't know they were anything "out of the norm" unless we were told.

It will probably never completely change, and in my lifetime I know I won't see an enormous change, probably not even close to what is ideal, but there are people fighting and I hope that in the future, there will no longer be this ridiculous fight for something there shouldn't even be a fight for to begin with.

Just needed to get this off of my chest


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## EJW323

I completely agree! I myself am not a lesbian, but one of my best friends is. She is constantly bullied at school and if you go anywhere with her you can hear constant whispers about her. It makes me sad that people can't just be accepting of who she is. My mom, being an avid christian, won't even let her come near my house. I have had discussions about it with her and all she says is, "It's fine that she's a lesbian, but she will go to **** because of it." We've been friends since we were first in school together. She always knew she was different from everyone else but didn't know how to express it until last year. And until last year, she was allowed at my house. I'm hoping some day people don't have to hide and be ashamed of who they are, and I hope for change and equality.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## PaigeRose

I didnt come out to my family until 6 months ago. I didnt have a lot of friends in high school but my 2 best friends and the few people i hung out with were oddly okay with it. I waited so long to tell my family for reasons i dont even know but they were fine with it. Or well, they dont bring it up but they dont treat my girlfriend any differently either.

Ive known my girlfriend/fiance since i was 15 and weve been dating since i was 17... ill be 21 next week. We met online, lived 6 hours apart, finally started living together this past year, and somehow ive never been technically bullied because of it. I guess i just choose my battles and dont let it affect me. None of my coworkers have said anything, we dont get strange looks when we hold hands in public. Ive been lucky, tbh.

My girlfriend was mildly bullied in HS but switched schools and became a drama geek, thus never having a problem... her moms boyfriend likes to make "taco" jokes and she'll never be able to tell her grandmother but she isnt close with her anyway... so it works for us.

I guess my point is, ive been a lucky one and I couldve had it worse but I DO think there will be a change in our generation... excuse my extreme politicalness but once the cranky old men get out of seats of power and our generation is in control rather than our parents and baby-boomer generation, i think the difference will snowball. Itll take a while but we'll get there  

Actually its funny, just recently my county decided to the states ruling and said "heck yeah we'll let gays marry!" State wasnt so happy about that lol


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## Daniel

PaigeRose said:


> . excuse my extreme politicalness but once the cranky old men get out of seats of power and our generation is in control rather than our parents and baby-boomer generation, i think the difference will snowball.


What cranky old men? Gay rights are happily promoted by the media and nearly all politcos. It is a regular _Cause Celebre_. Those that disagree don't say anything otherwise anymore.


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## PaigeRose

If it were that widely accepted by people of power it would be legal for same sex couples to marry in all 50 states :/


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## watts300

Daniel said:


> Gay rights are happily promoted by the media.... Those that disagree don't say anything otherwise anymore.


Isn't that something?
My my.. how the tables have turned. Straight people that are against homosexuals are becoming the ones that are ridiculed. And ridiculed severely. 

Every one has the right to an opinion, but no one has the right to not be offended. Not gays, not straights. 

I'm straight and I'll say just as openly as those that "came out" that I don't understand homosexuality. It doesn't make sense to me. My opinion has nothing to do with "the lord" or heaven or **** or any of that nonsense. If it has any foundation, it might just be because it physically doesn't make sense [again] to me. But I'm not sure I have any singular reason that I can explain. It's just who I am, just like you are who you are. 

But whatever. People can do what they want, feel what they want, and even say what they want.... as long as I'm left out of it. I'm not the one that yells and makes fun of people that are different from me, so long as them being different doesn't impact my day. If people around me want to be gay, fine, just don't promote it and have rallies. (Where are all the heterosexual parades?) Be who you are, be confident, and don't hide it... We all (of any sexual orientation) need to find a happy median of fitting in. 

Can't we all just get along... and leave each other alone.....


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## Daniel

My point with that comment was that there is not in fact, a bunch of rich, old Republicans sitting in smoke filled rooms thinking of how to keep the gays down. LBGTQ (or whatever the current acronym is) is pushed by the biggest media moguls, Hollywood studios, aspiring politicians, mega-corps, international foundations, et. all. And we all smile and nod because gay rights just seems like the nice thing to do.


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## Xerneas

Oh my, well, I was not trying to turn this into some kind of heated debate, rather just post about how I was feeling upset that I still have to wake up and face people trying to infringe on my rights as a human being. Yes, we are making progression, but it still happens. I am no expert on politics, but I have been bullied and gone through a lot of confusion and difficult times trying to figure myself out, and still continuously go through enough fear and anxiousness to confidently say this problem still exists in the world. I did a little report on this a while back for school and found a case where students being severely bullied for being LGBT were denied any kind of help and simply told to "stay out of their way" and were advised to leave the school. That makes me feel sick. 

I fully understand and am aware that not everyone does, or even has to understand or like homosexuality. If you are one of those people, but you do not scream and shout at everyone different from you, I respect you. That is the ideal kind of "toleration". But in a world where I fear word of my homosexuality ever coming out to my future bosses and costing me my job, and having to see news reports of kids taking their lives, that is not just disliking or disagreeing with something, it is hurting and scarring people and I refuse to accept that. When I can get married everywhere, adopt everywhere, not have to fear coming out to my workplace, hold hands with my partner in public and not be ridiculed for "flaunting it" because I kissed my girlfriend or get weird looks from an ignorant teenager, I will be more tolerable of people saying they simply don't agree with me or don't like me.

I am sorry if I sound ignorant or seem to have my head in the clouds, but I am speaking from my heart here. I have been ridiculed for my sexual orientation. I have been called weird and been talked about right in front of my eyes, I have lost friends, including one of my absolute best friends when her Christian family did not appreciate my "flamboyancy", I have been alienated and excluded, pushed and shoved, been called many slurs, received harassing phone calls when I was in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, broken down in front of my entire family, had to deal with people making vulgar jokes in front of me and then telling me they "forgot" when I speak out about it...it goes on and on. Maybe I just sound naïve, I can understand that, some people might just think I'm overreacting, but when I have been afraid to hold hands in public with another woman out of actual fear that someone would physically harm me I'm not going to be silent.

I didn't mean to start a ruckus here and I didn't intend to cause any arguing. I've been in a bad mood about this recently, and in 2013 when there are people still fighting for this I think I have every right to be.


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## watts300

PaigeRose said:


> If it were that widely accepted by people of power it would be legal for same sex couples to marry in all 50 states :/



I'm not heated at all. Maybe the tone of my last reply was misunderstood. The mood was more lackadaisical. 


But to reply to what I quoted above , that's technically not they way the government works. People in power are a representation of their constituents. If politicians made decisions like what I thought you were implying, that wouldn't be a democratic republic. And America is indeed a democratic republic.


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## Xerneas

watts300 said:


> I'm not heated at all. Maybe the tone of my last reply was misunderstood. The mood was more lackadaisical.


Sorry for misunderstanding. Can be hard to tell what tone people are using over the internet!


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## watts300

Indeed.


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## lalalauren

I think it's great that you're finding more acceptance for it now!

Although I'm straight, my ex-fiance came out to me as transgender (unfortunately led to the relationship breaking down, but we're still friends), my sister is a lesbian and has been in a relationship with her girlfriend for 4-5 years now, and my boyfriend is bisexual, so I'm surrounded by variety and I love it!

I love that my ex-fiance was able to come out to her friends and has been completely accepted, and is now starting to feel more comfortable with dressing like a girl and wearing make up in public. 

I love that over a family meal the other week with my uncle and his family, my sister was able to bring her girlfriend and have her be introduced as her girlfriend and no one batted an eyelid. 

It's not right to judge people for what they want to do behind closed doors. Much better to judge them on whether they're a horrible person or not


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## AJ Black-Savage

You are who you are  whether that's straight, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual.... We are all the same, we are all human beings that have feelings too who should be allowed to be happy and marry who they want, regardless of their sexual preferences....

Anyone who doesn't or can't see that needs to go and jump off a cliff whether its close minded friends, family, workmates,school friends etc. I am straight myself but fully support gay and lesbian rights to the max and have had plenty of arguments standing up for my friends if people try to bully them about it (I have been called a human rotty in the past) 

Be proud of who you are  you have my full support as a friend  

Xxxxxxxxx


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## nanashi7

For me, coming out with a sexual preference is always been less of an legislative issue and more of an acceptance issue. Honestly, I can't care about what strangers think is morally correct, if I'll never speak to them. It's awful to shrug off the politics like that but it's pretty low on the moral radar of things that need to be fixed for me.
However, social attitudes are huge. They can be so overbearing and overwhelming to try and stand up in that light and say, "well, this is who I am.", so I can understand the desire to hide away from that light, either in denial or more extreme suicide solutions.

I am asexual. It's not even an option on preferences. It's got to be a psychological or biological disorder in most minds today. I haven't tried to talk to most of my family members, because they remarked upon it as clearly my boyfriend not knowing how to do It or wasn't doing it right. My gynecologist wanted to check that everything was in order down south when she heard this. It makes one feel like they are Wrong, something important is lacking and they are incomplete or insufficient. Even explaining it to my significant other was hard, and that's someone who should rather be in the know on these things.
This is why no matter what title or how bizarre I think one's lifestyle is I just sort of nod my head. In so long as they are not breaking a moral law (and I am talking murder, theft, all those great philosophical things) or attempting to counter the social pressures with more overbearing attitudes (and yes, in this case I do mean Parades of mostly-nude men -- but it also applies to the screaming animal rights activists and feminists) I don't care. Do what you want; won't bother me.


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## Piff

Hats off to you, and to all the LGBT out there who still have the courage to carry on regular lives, regardless of all the judgements and hatred you must get on a daily basis. It is truly amazing to me. I've seen a lot of my friends struggle with the issue, two of my closest friends finally come out, and I can only imagine how difficult it must be. 
I'd like to think the world is becoming a more tolerant place, but until the sight of two men holding hands or two women kissing is still considered "flaunting" "wrong" and "exaggerated", we're a looong way off target. And every day, when the few courageous couples walk around holding hands and people actually turn and stare, even young people, I see it's gonna be a steep hill yet.
Who knows when it will be ok to teach children in elementary school that a married couple can be **** or hetero, that it's ok to use the girl's bathroom if you don't actually think you're a boy and gay slurs won't have effect any more.. that different sex preferences aren't necessarily differences. It's just who we are. 
Unfortunately it will be a long time before Italy even acknowledges the need for LGBT rights, what with most of the country being catholic, and the Vatican still playing such a heavy role in internal affairs, but I just wish I could transmit some serenity to you and to all my strong, courageous friends who still can't embrace when meeting in public or feel the thrill of showing off a new boyfriend in school. They're people, dammit, and nobody, nobody should have the right to tell them who or how to love.


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## nanashi7

My university actually has a pretty popular petition going around to allow transgender housing.


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## Daniel

AJ Black-Savage said:


> We are all the same, we are all human beings that have feelings too who should be allowed to be happy and marry who they want,


That's the rub right here. If 'we' have every marry whoever they want, why can't people marry more than one person? Or why can't people marry animals (rats? ) or inanimate objects? I mean we're just letting people do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, then why not?


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## Piff

Just expressing my opinion.. I quite personally think that a religious influence on state affairs is never positive, regardless of which religion this may be. I've been raised Catholic, my whole family is Catholic, so I of course have nothing against it's influence on society, unless it goes against rights that I consider basic. 
I'm sorry if I've offended you, though.


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## Daniel

Piff said:


> Just expressing my opinion.. I quite personally think that a religious influence on state affairs is never positive, regardless of which religion this may be. I've been raised Catholic, my whole family is Catholic, so I of course have nothing against it's influence on society, unless it goes against rights that I consider basic.
> I'm sorry if I've offended you, though.


Don't worry about it, I deleted my post because I don't want to have that debate on this forum and end up turning most of the place against me.


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## Piff

Daniel said:


> Don't worry about it, I deleted my post because I don't want to have that debate on this forum and end up turning most of the place against me.


Goodness, I hope we're more mature than THAT ;D Peace!


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## nanashi7

Marriage is a religious institution. In my religion, we handfast. I won't look at a Church and tell them to change their religious laws.

However, the state recognizes these unions, no matter what form they take. The legislative unions (marriage, handfasting, what have you) is something that needs to be determined. There is no slippery slope in this. One human may marry one other human, that at least is what we should focus on now. (Personally, I think if a Poly wants to have support for their families then there is no reason they can't...it's something entirely different to propose financial support from a human to a nonhuman)


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## Xerneas

Daniel said:


> That's the rub right here. If 'we' have every marry whoever they want, why can't people marry more than one person? Or why can't people marry animals (rats? ) or inanimate objects? I mean we're just letting people do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, then why not?


Animals (besides humans...) and inanimate objects cannot consent to marriage. Another human being can. 

Allowing same-sex marriage is not opening a pathway for people to marry their pet dog. It can't sign a marriage license. People should be free to marry any HUMAN BEING that they want but marrying a bookshelf will never be legitimate. I honestly don't think anyone arguing that people should be allowed to marry whomever they want are talking about inanimate objects.


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## watts300

Xerneas, marry me.


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## Daniel

Xerneas said:


> Animals (besides humans...) and inanimate objects cannot consent to marriage. Another human being can.
> 
> Allowing same-sex marriage is not opening a pathway for people to marry their pet dog. It can't sign a marriage license. People should be free to marry any HUMAN BEING that they want but marrying a bookshelf will never be legitimate. I honestly don't think anyone arguing that people should be allowed to marry whomever they want are talking about inanimate objects.


Fine, but you skipped over polygamy. Can you talk about the rights of people to get married to _other humans_ (now that that distinction has been made), why can't I have a harem of 8 wives? After all, they all consented.

Where I am going with this is that eventually one will have to ask themselves whether such unions that I have given examples of are for the better good of society.  "If it feels good, do it" is not an axiom for a successful society.


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## Daniel

And I should add - it is not my contention that gay marriage is the gateway to marrying your dog (or rat). Only that gay marriage advocates should be careful of the language they use - "if I love a person, why can't I marry them?" is simply a poor argument. Repeating it often enough will open the door to alot of not-so-great alternate lifestyles. 

And for those of you that might object I am anti-polygamy, I plead guilty as charged. That is the last thing we want to see in Western society for a whole host of reasons.


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## Xerneas

To be completely and wholly honest, my knowledge on polygamy in society is very limited and I haven't spend nearly as much time as I have researching same-sex marriage studying anything to do with polygamy. 

Taking away the "buts" and "what-ifs" and "howevers", and stating the raw, I can't find it in myself to argue against somebody married to eight people as long as they were all really consenting... Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea either though. Being married to a harem becomes a much more tangled, warped knot full of many, many more potential problems than something as innocent as two people of the same sex trying to marry. Essentially, when you take away the gender identity of a homosexual marriage, it's the same thing as a heterosexual one...just two people trying to marry... It's made out to be something out of the innocent. In my opinion, polygamy is a different story and there are a lot of different things to consider when you permit a marriage between more than two people. Not the same deal.

I do agree that people should be more careful of the language they use. The way it can twist into other kinds of relationships and contradict things is a big deal. Thank you for arguing so respectfully.


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## Daniel

Xerneas said:


> To be completely and wholly honest, my knowledge on polygamy in society is very limited and I haven't spend nearly as much time as I have researching same-sex marriage studying anything to do with polygamy.
> 
> Taking away the "buts" and "what-ifs" and "howevers", and stating the raw, I can't find it in myself to argue against somebody married to eight people as long as they were all really consenting... Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea either though.


The social effects of polygamy would be a huge negative for society. It's fairly simply to make a case against it just based on what happens in parts of the world where it has been historically allowed.

In places like the Middle East and 19th century Utah, polygamy begets a 'big man' world. That is, the alpha males (being the most wealthy and/or influential) monopolize access to women. What do you get from this, but alot of angry and potentially violent beta males. The ill effects from this vastly outweigh any libertarian philosophical concerns. But I actually think the ruling class of western countries would still agree with this.


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## Xerneas

Daniel said:


> In places like the Middle East and 19th century Utah, polygamy begets a 'big man' world. That is, the alpha males (being the most wealthy and/or influential) monopolize access to women. What do you get from this, but alot of angry and potentially violent beta males. The ill effects from this vastly outweigh any libertarian philosophical concerns. But I actually think the ruling class of western countries would still agree with this.


I see. I really have to learn more about polygamy before I go making assumptions about it but that definitely makes sense, and I think this reason was definitely itching in the back of my mind, but I didn't know how to phrase it. I do think large polygamous relationships have a clear potential for this kind of behaviour.


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## Piff

I guess it's just a point of seeing what the limit is in different countries.. polygamy is cultural, and does not in any way play a significant part in Western culture, whereas homosexuality definitely does, is so many ways. Polygamy is in fact accepted in many countries, but it just wouldn't make sense in ours, it's not part of our heritage. Gay pride, gay bars, gay icons.. homosexuality, however, is the life of a good percentage of population. I doubt you'll get huge rallies of people demanding polygamist marriage. 
And it's not a matter of excluding people from their rights, it's a matter of what is actually relevant in a country at that moment.

I love hearing everyone's opinions  these are generally such controversial topics that I never get to debate them as much as I would like!


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## PaigeRose

I dont know anything at all about polygamy... but, my girlfriend works with someone who considers himself polyamorous. I always pictured it as Mormon or Middle Eastern or something, it never really effected me (still doesnt). Naturally I was curious so I asked my girlfriend if the guy explained how "it worked". Apparently the guy is dating a girl, has been seeing her for a long time, loves her, wants to marry her, etc etc... but they go on dates with other people who are also polyamorous. I have no idea how you find those people or how many people are into such an open relationship (but im sure theres a dating website for it). 

That lead to my girlfriend and I talking about it and we decided that we couldnt be in such a relationship because in theory it sounds okay, oh yeah just date other people, come home to each other, but we know the entire time the one of us is out with someone else, the other would be home stewing in jealousy, haha. But I think thats more of an open-relationship than a polyamorous one? I dont know if the guy we know plans on marrying multiple people... 

Idk what my point here was, just wanted to share that. 

I dont see whats wrong with consented polyamory on a small scale but yeah, i agree that if EVERYONE was polyamorous, there would be a lot more 'alpha man' issues...

So, since not everyone will or ever be polyamorous, I dont really care if other people wanted to date multiple people at once. It doesnt effect me at all, just like my relationship with another girl doesnt effect anyone else.


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## Xerneas

I definitely don't have a problem with polyamorous people. I've met people who are polyamorous before but I've never questioned or spoken to them about their sexuality once...just didn't really matter to me. Like you said, I'd never be able to do it -- I'd get way too jealous. But there are people who can do it, and they are happy that way and I say let them be. It'd be hypocritical of me to not agree that polyamorous people can love whomever they'd like. 

I just think that a marriage between large groups of polyamorous people is a slippery slope and makes way for a whole nest of problems. It sounds very confusing and tricky.


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