# Can a tiny adult rat (not a dwarf) with a mutation safely take antibiotics?



## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

My new adopted girl is full grown weighing in at 200 tiny grams, is as long long as a three month old female rat, is harley coated and was adopted alongside her beautiful normal sized cagemate. She seems to just lie there and close her eyes. I don't know if it is her personality or if she is sick. She urinates and poops. I've heard her sneeze a couple of times and heard her make those myco flare ups sounds a couple of times. She doesn't sound even 1/10th of how my other rats myco flare up sounds when some of them are so loud it can wake you in your sleep.

The lady who I adopted my girl from told me harley rats are sensitive to antibiotics and that they are dangerous so if I take my girl to a vet and a URI is suspected how would it be treated without putting a tiny full grown rat at risk? I was also told that using a stethoscope to listen to lung sounds is useless for someone who is untrained (this makes sense) and that they are more useful for detecting heart problems. Maybe I will repurpose my stethoscope turning it into a funky straw or using the tubes as antennae on a bee shaped cake.

I am baffled. I want her to live. I love both my new girls already.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

She should be fine to give meds to, you should always be giving the dose by weight. So go by her weight and it should be fine. I haven't heard of harleys being more sensitive to meds, Im not sure why they would be really. You can always join the facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1684383241815171/ it is full of experts and can give you dosing advice. But just follow their rules exactly on posting.

Rats like that can have a wealth of health issues, I would be hopeful ofcourse but expect the worse. She could have alot of health issues be developmentally stunted, inside her body may just not be as strong to fight off illness. Working with a vet may be the very best thing here for a rat like that. 

I have a girl who was abandoned from her nest as a baby and couldn't catch back up developmentally, fully grown she is a whole 179g. Blessfully she is very healthy so far. But yeah so tiny!


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

The woman who adopted the rat to me is on every rat Facebook group. If I were to join and express my concerns she'd think I was questioning her expertise and feel insulted. Below is our dialogue regarding harley's and meds copied and pasted. Only read when you have time!

*ME: *My harley is sleeping on me. She has a bit of a uri which can be heard better using a stethoscope. She will be receiving baytril and doxy. She doesn't seem very interested in food even though i offered her my rat mash. We'll see how she does and i will also test her urine when she provides a sample. Both girls are lovely. Thank you so much.

*HER: *What other "infectious" signs are there? Stethoscopes are virtually useless in determmination of uri, even experienced rat vets say so. Why would you not assume congestion from temperature and condensation changes first, not to mention travel ? . Don't you know animals experience travel stress? Do you know the safety margin of antibiotics in Harleys, and that antibiotics weaken the immune system? Shouldn't the girls have a few days to settle in first?

*HER: *Thanks for adopting them, and I've asked my rat medical group about the stethoscope thing, but I think the vet said its useless unless pneumonia , blood pressure, heart murmur or interstitial lung disease is present, and the vet needs to train you re. what to listen for.

*HER: *As promised, some expert opinions. Unnamed Breeder was my mentor 15 years ago, and is still considered the top breeder in the USA. She never had sick rats, and her rats were the foundation of mine back then.She actually works with real research labs for both health and genetic testing. Please consider trying childrens benadryl , and vooid stimulation by other people or environment (noises, free-ranging) . They need a quiet room *of their own* for a few days.

*HER (Forwarded Message Below From a Breeder using unnamed for privacy reasons): *URI= upper respiratory infection which has nothing to do with the lungs. So a stethoscope is not needed for diagnosis, only to rule out pulmonary involvement. I would not start on antibiotics right away since it is probably stress/environmental changes.​
*ME: *She was sneezing yesterday and making those myco noises. Per your advice, I will give her a few days to settle. She and her cagemate are in a Rat Manor cage with a level, hut, and aspen bedding.

What is so sweet is both girls slept with me on my couch when I got home for one hour. The cagemate slept in the nook of my waist and the harley slept near my neck.

I've owned a lot of female rats and have never had one whose coat is as soft as my new harley's cagemate. Why is her coat so luxuriously soft? Why weren't my other girls coats the same?

Already I am in love with both of them. The normal sized girl loves to shoulder ride. The harley of course seeks shelter under my top. They're are both to die for and I am so happy! Very happy! They are my Christmas gift. If you celebrate Christmas then I wish you and your family a merry one.

Don't worry, I will hold off the meds for my harley and thanks for the information and looking into it for me.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

asking for second opinions is always a smart idea, if this person is so offended by that then they are a very silly person lol I'd rather hurt someone's feelings then risk the health of the rat....

Anyone who is selling a rat like that is probably not the best breeder anyways. I can't even imagine.... 

But when did you get the rat? New home sneezes are quite normal. I do not like giving rats meds for every sniffle. Giving new rats a week or two is usually wise, if the noises sound clear and it doesn't get worse it is usually fine.


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

moonkissed said:


> asking for second opinions is always a smart idea, if this person is so offended by that then they are a very silly person lol I'd rather hurt someone's feelings then risk the health of the rat....
> 
> Anyone who is selling a rat like that is probably not the best breeder anyways. I can't even imagine....
> 
> But when did you get the rat? New home sneezes are quite normal. I do not like giving rats meds for every sniffle. Giving new rats a week or two is usually wise, if the noises sound clear and it doesn't get worse it is usually fine.


I heard the rat making noises in the car on the way home and I said out loud, _"Oh no!"_. My girl sneezed a couple of times at home and made a couple of chirping sounds and hasn't since.

It looks like you agree with everything I was told. If so, it is valuable information. My girl just looks...so frail. While looking at her coat it occurred to me that maybe rats with this coat type can't keep themselves warm. I think she will need a mouse sized crocheted merino wool sweater. ;D


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## Tierney (Jul 20, 2016)

The way she talks to you seems very condescending. I also don't know why someone would breed and sell a type of rat knowing they're more fragile. Absolutely get a second opinion, "feelings" aside. There is no place for hurt feelings when it comes to the health and welfare of rats.


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## Asteria (Jul 6, 2016)

Tierney said:


> The way she talks to you seems very condescending. I also don't know why someone would breed and sell a type of rat knowing they're more fragile. Absolutely get a second opinion, "feelings" aside. There is no place for hurt feelings when it comes to the health and welfare of rats.


I also agree with this. It sounds like she's taken the fact you think she might have sold an ill rat as a personal attack, she doesn't seem concerned about the rats health and seems a lot more worried about her reputation. Luckily you seem like a humble person, I don't think I would have reacted in the same way. 

I have never heard of harley rats having any abnormal reactions to antibiotics in all my time in the rat community, nor have I found anything that supports that claim.


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## LilysPets (Jul 1, 2016)

Wow, her response is appalling... Filled with unprofessionalism. As everyone has already said, it seems she's taking this as a personal attack instead of doing the responsible thing by being concerned about the rat's health. Personally, I wouldn't care if she gets offended and sees me posting on other FaceBook groups. My pets' health always come first and if the breeder doesn't want to assume responsibility, then I will. She can know as many people as she wants with the whole research and lab thing, but anyone can do that in whatever school. The only time I'd care is if they published an article and from a reputable school. My sister is in Columbia University which is a private, ivy league research school with a 6% acceptance rate. I'd believe my sister's research in rats than your breeder's lol... Anyone can really do "research"

I don't know too much about Harleys but I know that they are a relatively new "breed" for coat type, and unlike hairless and most coat types, they require lower protein levels in their diet. Haven't heard of anything with antibiotics though. Just make sure it's the proper dose to her weight and if you're REALLY concerned, you can always look for a rat-experienced vet and get a second professional opinion.


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

^^^I doubt the exotic vets in my area are familiar with _harley's_. If my new girl shows signs of illness I will take her to a vet but my concern is all the vet can do is prescribe antibiotics which I've been advised not to administer translating into my rat not being able to get treatment. In addition, I was told harley's are susceptible to renal failure and certain meds are dangerous for this condition. 

My girl is doing fine. She is taking an interest in food, is not sneezing or making myco noises and is very comfortable on me. She does chirp when she hiccups though! Chirp, chirp, chirp...

In the future when it comes to rat ownership I will now adopt adult rats in need of homes. Adult rats make just as good pets as baby rats do. It just took a long time to figure this out. My bad.

BTW If I wasn't REALLY concerned I wouldn't have come here asking for help!


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

luvmy4rats said:


> In the future when it comes to rat ownership I will now adopt adult rats in need of homes. Adult rats make just as good pets as baby rats do. It just took a long time to figure this out. My bad.


Why only adults?Do you mean you will only have one age group?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I never heard of Harley rats not being gable to get antibiotics...hopefully she won't get a respiratory infection but if she does antibiotics are the only way to treat it.


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

Rattielover965 said:


> Why only adults?Do you mean you will only have one age group?


I should have clarified that I will own both breeder origin ratties and rescues. If the rescues are adults, I will welcome them into my home just as I would younger ages.


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## Tierney (Jul 20, 2016)

Is there really that big of a difference between harley rats and regular rats to where a vet trained in exotics wouldn't be able to care for them?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Tierney said:


> Is there really that big of a difference between harley rats and regular rats to where a vet trained in exotics wouldn't be able to care for them?


no.. there is no real difference.


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

moonkissed said:


> no.. there is no real difference.


Per the woman who adopted my harley to me there _is._ However, I treated my harley boy who had signs of a myco flare up a few months ago with antibiotics when I adopted him (his noises were so loud when he slept that they woke me up). He had no averse reactions or diarrhea. His myco sounds went away. The sounds he does make are chirping sounds when he hiccups just like my new harley girl (it's interesting how they both sound like squeaky toys when they hiccup). 

The harley boy I have didn't drop dead from the antibiotics given to him which says perhaps harley's are _not _different. They are rats who constantly look like they've had a bad hair day or are have furever lasting effects of having touched a static electric ball. I'd like to think that is the only difference.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

luvmy4rats said:


> Per the woman who adopted my harley to me there _is._ However, I treated my harley boy who had signs of a myco flare up a few months ago with antibiotics when I adopted him (his noises were so loud when he slept that they woke me up). He had no averse reactions or diarrhea. His myco sounds went away. The sounds he does make are chirping sounds when he hiccups just like my new harley girl (it's interesting how they both sound like squeaky toys when they hiccup).
> 
> The harley boy I have didn't drop dead from the antibiotics given to him which says perhaps harley's are _not _different. They are rats who constantly look like they've had a bad hair day or are have furever lasting effects of having touched a static electric ball. I'd like to think that is the only difference.


Well people can say anything they want it doesnt make it true. I am not sure I would trust the judgement of someone who bred a sickly rat and then sold it anyways....

But the question was:



> Is there really that big of a difference between harley rats and regular rats to where a vet trained in exotics wouldn't be able to care for them?


and the answer to that is no. There are ofcourse differences in varieties and in lines. The issue with her harleys is NOT a harley issue but a line issue anyways. But any vet who understands rats would be able to understand and treat said rats.


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## Tierney (Jul 20, 2016)

Her adult rat she bred is small and sickly. She says that antibiotics will be bad for the rat, but you have personal experience that antibiotics don't harm a harley rat. This honestly sounds like a case of backyard breeder to me.


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

Tierney said:


> Her adult rat she bred is small and sickly. She says that antibiotics will be bad for the rat, but you have personal experience that antibiotics don't harm a harley rat. This honestly sounds like a case of backyard breeder to me.


I have personal experience with one harley rat. This doesn't mean that all harley rats would do well with antibiotics hence my hesitation to medicate my new harley rat.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Who is that breeder? Can you tell us the rattery name?


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## luvmy4rats (Nov 29, 2013)

Gribouilli said:


> Who is that breeder? Can you tell us the rattery name?


I prefer to keep rattery names private to ensure their privacy. Keep in mind rat breeders are a VERY close knit community who ALL talk to each other.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

luvmy4rats said:


> I prefer to keep rattery names private to ensure their privacy. Keep in mind rat breeders are a VERY close knit community who ALL talk to each other.


I understand...it is just that some of the things that the breeder said are quite worrisome. Hope all goes well with your rat though. If she gets sick with a respiratory infection for instance, she will need antibiotics- there are no way around that.


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