# I Don't Understand Rat Diets



## sg4rb0 (Jan 4, 2016)

From what I've read you need a rat "lab-block" as well as a food mix. What is the difference? I am in the UK and can't seem to get some of the recommended food. If I get the product below, will this suffice? Please educate me.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Supreme-Pet...id=1452454345&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=rat+foood


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## RatEmporiumToronto (Jun 10, 2015)

Oxbow is the most popular lab block:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxbow-Regal...qid=1452459681&sr=8-2&keywords=oxbow+rat+food


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## Zanie (Dec 30, 2015)

This is different in different countries. In Sweden for example, you're recommended not commercial food or lab blocks, but home-made mixes with mainly grains but a good variety of seeds etc and some dog kibble.
Other areas claim that lab blocks is the best way.

Everyone seems to agree that fresh veggies etc is a necessary supplement.


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## RattieFosters (Aug 8, 2015)

Most people on this forum either use Oxbow (including myself) or Harlan Teklad. If you're a feeding a good quality food, you don't need anything else. Not sure about Harlan Teklad, but Oxbow has 100% of the nutrition rats need. Technically, I could just give them Oxbow and fresh water, and they would have all the nutrients they need, but..... that would be pretty boring for them. xP I still give them (healthy) treats.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I think it's important for most rat owners to understand that there is, has always been and will always be a debate on what the best rat diet is. This is very much like the debate over what the best car ever built was. The fact is that a Volvo and a VW will both mostly get you to where you want to go most of the time, so neither might be a bad choice. But when we start to debate "the best" everyone starts disagreeing. And this is true of rat food too.

Rats are designed to eat a vast variety of foods and varied diets and they live all over the world. They may eat wheat in the Midwest and rice in the orient. They may eat snow peas in Japan and peanuts in Georgia. And somehow they will survive and thrive.

Some foods are better than others and it's a good idea to try and give your rats a variety of foods and choose foods that are better than others... but if you fall into the mindset of what is best... you will drive yourself nuts.


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## Ratloved (Oct 4, 2015)

I feed my rats oxbow adult pellets and varied food every night. Mainly grains, such as oats, barley, Cheerios and kale or dark lettuce. I also give them fruit, sweet potatoes, leftovers, scrambled eggs etc. a couple times a week. If you go under the forum tab, under rat health there is a sticky for good and bad food for rats.


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## sg4rb0 (Jan 4, 2016)

The problem is, I live in the UK and i can't get those brands of food here


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

You could try Supreme Science Selective Rat, its a lab block sold in Europe. 

This is another site you can check out for the UK: http://www.ratrations.com/complete-mixtures-for-rats-c-54.html I hear good things about the mixes on there, but maybe someone from the UK can weigh in their opinions.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You most likely shouldn't shop by brand anywhere in the world, because over time just about every brand cost reduces their contents or sells out to an investment company that does or better yet starts importing the food from the orient...

I made this mistake years ago, I used to feed my fish the "best" brand of fish food imported from Germany... then one day my fish started looking horrible, when I read the contents they were just about all missing, the food was now mostly potato starch and food color and I noticed that the manufacturer had been bought up by an industrial conglomerate. To be honest, the next time I saw the product some of the ingredients were back. I then bought another food that contained over 15 different natural sea foods, only to find them all replaced one day by egg byproducts and of course a new corporate owner.

Read the ingredient lists, and do some research and always try and keep current. And always remember that the foods you prepare at home contain precisely what you put in them. If you cook your rats a bit of oatmeal, that's what they are getting.

To some degree Harlan produces food for the lab rat and commercial rat industry as does mazuri (Purina rat chow), so there are other large accounts that are hopefully checking up on them, but Oxbow is pretty much a consumer product. It's pretty fair to bet that some day they are likely to go the way of every other pet food company... So always check the ingredients and don't get stuck on a brand name... I'm sure that there are decent rat foods in the UK and in Europe, so keep current on your research and stay flexible. Lastly, don't get stuck on "best", pretty much go for good and supplement it with foods you prepare at home.

I might add one last footnote, beware of just looking at the 'guaranteed analysis' panel on the package. Protein for example can come from meat, eggs, poultry, fish or beans... these foods are obviously not interchangeable nor do they cost the same. Over the years, I've seen several dog foods go from mostly meat to mostly soy and never change their protein content nor price.

To be clear, I'm not knocking any particular product, I'm just getting concerned at how complacent lots of rat owners are getting when shopping for pre-packaged rat foods.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Yeah there is very different diet ideas between the US & the UK. US we are all about lab blocks, while the UK is mostly mixes. I think it is partly because the UK does have alittle bit better quality of mixes available but eh it may just be that something gets started in one area and catches on and becomes the norm.

I am in the US & am a fan of lab blocks, I feed oxbow. My biggest problem with mixes is that they often have not great stuff in them & i feel it is hard to really keep a balanced diet as they could be very picky and eat only what they like & leave the rest or one rat could eat all of one thing, etc.. But I don't think the UK really has lab blocks available and many rat owners in the UK put together some nice mixes that seem to work well.

But no matter what you feed, research it, look at it & decide if it is safe and healthy. 

I would suggest checking out http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk/index.php
It is based in the UK & has excellent diet guides that are very helpful.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, I've been around long enough to remember the initial resistance to lab blocks was that many people didn't trust the ingredient list. It took quite a few years to sell Americans on the idea that blocks were better because your rat can't pick and choose the seeds or goodies they prefer. While it's likely true that most rats would prefer junk food over other foods up to a point, my own experience is that given a choice rats will actually choose a pretty healthy diet if given the option and certain limits on the sweets. I can easily understand where people who haven't bought into the block concept and or don't trust the manufacturers, would rather see what's in the package (seeds etc.) for themselves.


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## MarinaNeira (Dec 5, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> I made this mistake years ago, I used to feed my fish the "best" brand of fish food imported from Germany... then one day my fish started looking horrible, when I read the contents they were just about all missing, the food was now mostly potato starch and food color and I noticed that the manufacturer had been bought up by an industrial conglomerate. To be honest, the next time I saw the product some of the ingredients were back. I then bought another food that contained over 15 different natural sea foods, only to find them all replaced one day by egg byproducts and of course a new corporate owner.


That's crazy! Yet, it actually isn't that surprising... But I'm glad I read this because it will keep me on my toes. Tonight I'm taking a photo of my Oxbow's ingredients list and then checking every single time I have a new bag. I hope your fishies were able to bounce back from that. I would be so upset!


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## Amph (Apr 14, 2015)

RatRations mixes are the best shop brought food in the UK IMO. The reason lab blocks are not popular over here is because the ones we have have limited in ingredients/quality. Lots of people make their own mixes based on shunamite rat diet but given the fact the RatRations mixes are almost the same as a home made mix it just saves time and hassle to get those instead. You do need to get a vitamin D suppliment to go with it though.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Amph,

Don't rats eat some of their own poop for vitamin D or is that just guinea pigs? Here in the US we use vitamin D as rat poison, so I suspect the correct dose should be pretty small... but it's been a long time since I looked into it... 

And yes Marina, it's always a good idea to compare your new pet food packages with your old ones... and always beware of "new formula" or "new and improved" and more so when you see some new corporate name in tiny print on the packaging.... or the "made in" changes. 

I recently bought jelly for my daughter and it tasted different... pretty much the same package as I was used to except now it's "made in china"... Seriously, we can't even make jelly in the US anymore? And really why would anyone import food products from the country that poisoned their own children with toxic plastic milk?


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## Amph (Apr 14, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Amph,
> 
> Don't rats eat some of their own poop for vitamin D or is that just guinea pigs? Here in the US we use vitamin D as rat poison, so I suspect the correct dose should be pretty small... but it's been a long time since I looked into it...


Rats produce vitamin D from UV light on their skin but as most rats are kept indoors vitamin D is added to comercial lablocks and mixes. The purpose of eating their own poop is as you say to gain more nutrients but unless they have sunlight or vitamin D in their diet there wont be any in their poop. Rats have realtively short digestive systems for the type of food they eat so require the half processed food to be passed a second time through their system with the aid of a mucus thats produced with the poop that slows down the rats digestion process. The more nutrients they gain from their diet the less they consume their poop. Stopping them from doing so can make them deficient in various vitamins. It also helps maintain a good level of gut bacteria for digestion. In the UK we have a powder based vitamin D suppliment that is added to wet food but ofc in low doses. I would like to add placing your rats by a window to get light wont be enough as UV B light can't pass through glass.


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## Zanie (Dec 30, 2015)

Look up what foods contain vitamin D. It's present in low doses in some foods. Vitamin D is however a hormone, mis-named as a vitamin, which is why it's tricky to deal with. Fish (certain kinds) is probably the best natural source. So question is how much fish and what kinds that's suitable for rats.
At least around here, rats are supposed to have some meat in their diet - maybe that can be replaced by fish.
I'm just speculating now since the discussion of vitamin D appeared. I've had a similiar discussion a while ago.
Sunlight creates a pre-version of vitamin D in the fat in their fur which they get when they groom themselves (maybe a reason to help old rats that can't reach as well anymore, extra?)-
I bring mine outside once in a while and they eat a bit of fish once in a while as well.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The trouble with naturally occurring vitamin d in foods is that there aren't many with high enough levels nautrally to meet there needs without going massively over for other nutirents, your best bet is fish based products (particularly fish oils) however they normally contain too much vitamin A which has a relatively low RDA (basically dose over which its toxic to rats). You can get vitamin A extracted cod liver oils here in the uk which work well. Having had rats with vitamin D deficiencies its well worths taying on top of, especially in youngsters.

Ratdaddy, I suspect the vitamin D dosage they are using in rat poison over there is significantly over the RDA for rats, its a tricky nutrient to overdose in normal diet, or even meet the requirements without enriching. I suspect that a lot of wild rats that don't spend much time outside (e.g. city - building based rats) are actually deficient but it doesn't stop them breeding and having babies as the effects tend to be shorter lifespan, calcium deficiencys etc.

In terms of the best diet, it is subjective, however the whole thing about "selective feeding" meaning that only a lab block diet can be complete is rubbish, if you feed properly. A lot of people just keep topping up food bowls which encourages selective feeding and often overeating. If you restrict feeding to what they need to eat to stay the right weight, and ideally combine with scatter feeding you just don't have that issue.

For my guys feeding them a block diet would be pretty cruel, mine are raised on a very varied and interesting diet and have great enjoyment from different bits that they forage for in the bedding. Sticking some nuggets in a bowl would likely lead to horror, food shouldn't come in identical packages. Its a bit like feeding kids on a nice varied and interesting diet, then giving them a, identical cereal bar for every meal once they go to secondard school. It might meet there nutritonal needs (on paper at least) but its boring as **** and they'd quickly go off it. Whilst some rats can be ok on blocks I've yet to see a rat whose been switched to a decent home made mix (not your junk food mixes) and not then ignored then blocks.

Then there's my real issue, blocks are very static, they breed a culture of believing that there's only one nutritionally "right" solution for feeding. That each rat needs exactly this amount of X and that amount of y. That's rubbish, whilst there's some good guidelines (rats need around 12-14% protein and 4-5% fat for example) there actual needs at the time vary a lot. Some of this is with age (and the idea that a kitten diet fed until 4 months then switched onto an adult diet doesn't really work with the changing requirements of growth spurts and such), some is with genetics, others can be to do with environment. Whilst a mix doesn't necessarily sort this an understanding that you can vary them a bit easier is helpful. Start out with something good but balanced and learn to add to it as needed for the rats. For instance its cold right now, my rats are all looking a bit fluffy, so I've upped the amount of fat in there diet a litter (added a higher percentage of seeds to the mix than I do usually), in a week or two they will be back to there usual sleek selves.

For me the best diet is a decent well thought out home made mix, it gives me the flexibility and capability to tweak it to suit my girls. I don't recommend that to new owners though, that would be too complex. Instead I recommend a rat rations mix (in the uk) mixed 50:50 with a really nice rabbit food we have here called harrisons banana brunch (its rubbish for rabbits but apart from being a bit low in fat and copper its great for rats). Then they only add a certain amount of additional vitamins and minerals via simple to give suppliments and feed veg. I then help then learn when to feed wet meals to suit what the rats condition is like. ONce they are happy then its up to them if they want to do homemade of stick with the simpler option, I'd say its about 50:50 which way they go.

Theres a lot of info on my approach to feeding here http://www.isamurats.co.uk/options-for-dry-mixes.html

And theres lots of info on how you learn to read your rats condition to make the right calls on what to feed here http://www.isamurats.co.uk/condition.html


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

The recommendation of fancyratsforum (the UK site) is a good one. If you look in their health / feed / diets sub forum, there is a basic recipe for the shumanite diet. If you are interested in making your own mix, that is a good place to start. 

I use a combination of harlan lab blocks as a base, but then do a shumanite mix (without the added protein) daily and give fresh veggs as well.. mainly carrots and various greens like kale and collards, squash, etc. 

I don't feel confident enough at my ability to make a turely balanced mix to feed just that and vegg., which is why I use the lab blocks also. my grain mix contains barley, millet, brown rice, oats, buckwheat, and a few sunflower seeds to add some fat / oil. My guys eat via foraging and I scatter their food (seed mix and blocks) all over the cage at night. They only get fed once a day. 

If we had a site like ratrations here in the US, I'd be all over it lol. I love the idea of the premade mixes. Making your own can be very expensive. I have yet to find a local source for some of the more oddball ingredients in mine (barley, buckewheat and millet) so I have to order online which is pricey. I'd also like to include wild rice, but haven't been able to find it at a decent price. 

I think the key is providing at least some variety (even if you use blocks, add in vegg and healthy treats) and to be aware of what ingredients you are feeding and what quantities of food. I've seen a reduction in weight on my fat male rat since I started scatter feeding and watching portion size.


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