# Can Rats be Gay?



## Camelle

Seriously, can they?


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## iHayleyNorris

Silly question. Humans are the only creatures with intellect high enough to make a choice of gender preference. The only animals that have sex for pleasure are humans and dolphins. Everything else uses it solely for the purpose of reproduction. Pan paniscus, AKA bonobos (a type of chimpanzee) sometimes use sexual behaviors such as genital-genital rubbing to strengthen bonds, but never for pleasure. 

Therefore, rats, who are no where near intellectual enough to find pleasure in sexual behaviors, cannot be gay. A male may mistake another male and try to mount him, or this mounting can be used to establish dominance. However, I promise your rat feel no sexual tension whatsoever towards another rat of the same gender.


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## ratchet

This might become a heated discussion. 

Since WHEN is being homosexual a CHOICE?

to answer your question, yes -- I think it's possible. Preliminary studies promote the theory that homosexuality is the result of certain chemicals in the brain being wired differently via genetics - and greatly supports the thought that sometimes homosexuals "look" more like the other sex. There is also the theory that when a species reaches its peak in population and a species collapse is imminent that offspring exhibit homosexual behavior - as a self defense mechanism to prevent the downfall of the species. It is a theory that as of yet only has preliminary results and I am anxiously eyeing results. But I firmly believe some animals are just born that way and it should not make any difference to anyone if they are. 


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## ratchet

Ps... Everything that reproduces, regardless of intelligence capacity -- finds pleasure in sex/mating/copulating/reproducing - that is instinct (;

Ps -- no question is ever silly. 

PPS - hundreds of animals have been observed mating for pleasure -- many species of orca, horses, several primates (including OLD WORLD too!) the list goes on.. There are a bevy of animals that will "copulate for the fun of it". Dolphins and chimps come to mind first and foremost. 
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## Hephaestion

I don't think it a silly question but iHaley's points are somewhat correct. 

Gay as a term is really only appropriate for humans. It is difficult if not impossible to interpret the motivations, be they sexual or otherwise, of animals. It is most easily to interpret such behaviours in animals which pair-bond, whether for a season or for life, e.g., penguins, flamingos and swans. 

It is fair to say that homosexual behaviour is ubiquitous in the animal kingdom (Bruce Bagemihl, Biological Exubrance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity) but interpreting it as an orientation is difficult. To quote the evolutionary biologist, JBS Haldane (completely out of context, of course), "The world is not only queerer than we suppose but queerer than we can suppose".

Also, I do believe that sex is pleasurable in animals. Induce orgasm in a rat when he pushes a lever and he will push it too exhaustion!


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## LetTheRightOneIn

Yes, since when is being homosexual a choice?
*claps*


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## Rumy91989

Yes and no. It depends on what you mean by "gay." Rats, unlike humans, will not have romantic attachments to one another. That's a particular kind of thought process that seems to be specific to humans. However almost all animals can closely bond with one another, and this is regardless of gender. We tend to label it as friendship when it's same sex and romantic when it's opposite sex in animals, but there's no difference between those bonds. 
Rats regularly clean each other's genitals, which I believe people often mistake as sexual behavior, same with mounting in males. It's not. 
Can two rats of the same sex love each other, and love each other above their love for other cagemates, etc? Sure! It happens all the time. Does that make them gay? That's a huge philosophical question that I don't think will be resolved here. Especially since there's still a lot of debate about human sexuality, so anything to back up animal orientation is very, very far away.


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## LetTheRightOneIn

Yeah, like parrots can bond to the same sex, and can get extremely depressed if their mate dies or goes away. That could be seen as "gay."


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## Scintie

iHayleyNorris said:


> Silly question. Humans are the only creatures with intellect high enough to make a choice of gender preference. The only animals that have sex for pleasure are humans and dolphins. Everything else uses it solely for the purpose of reproduction. Pan paniscus, AKA bonobos (a type of chimpanzee) sometimes use sexual behaviors such as genital-genital rubbing to strengthen bonds, but never for pleasure.
> 
> Therefore, rats, who are no where near intellectual enough to find pleasure in sexual behaviors, cannot be gay. A male may mistake another male and try to mount him, or this mounting can be used to establish dominance. However, I promise your rat feel no sexual tension whatsoever towards another rat of the same gender.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There is over 500 species of animals that form homosexual bonds. 


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## cagedbirdsinging

There are many, many homosexual animals of a myriad of species in nature. Homosexual swans even use females in a 3-way to then go and steal the resulting egg to raise themselves! It isn't a silly question at all. Regardless of stances on choice, and please do stay on topic, homosexuality is a natural thing in the animal world.


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## iHayleyNorris

You have to look carefully at the phrase "homosexual bonds". The term "homosexual" itself means nothing more than "2 beings of the same sex," and the term "bonds" means to have a connection with. If "homosexual bond" is your definition of the term "gay," then yes. Yes! All of your male rats housed together are gay. 

However, if you want an answer as to whether or not your male rat is capable of falling in love with another male rat and desire a romantic relationship, then the answer is no. Rats, being intelligent, complex, and emotional, are not capable of the complexity that is romance. 

Certain animal species in the wild do sometimes mate for life. However, they do not do this out if a warm fuzzy feeling in their hearts. They do this so that they can guarantee a mate for the next mating season, and often to ensure the survival of their offspring by raising them as a team. Not out of love, but due to functionality.

However, if your definition of the phrase "homosexual bond" is anything like the actual definition, then by simply stating that "Over 500 species exhibit homosexual bonds," means absolutely nothing. Yes, male rats can often bond with other male rats. Yes, male chimpanzees can often bond with young male chimpanzees. This does not make them gay. 

In fact, it's an insult to the LGBTQ community to even consider the fact that those simplistic bonds between same sex animals could be anything like a gay relationship. 


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## ratchet

It's also an insult to the LBGT community to say that their preference in a partner is a "choice" too. (;

While the connotation gay is something I think applies strictly to humans, there are many documented instances where same gender "love" has existed. While no rat is going to serve up a candlelight dinner, it is entirely possible for a rat to have a preference for a certain gender -- and further more for it to desire a fulfilling relationship with them. 

Personal Anecdote: I've had several rescued animals that have professedly exhibited an interest in their own gender that could not have been marked as "dominance" -- a good instance is my late gelding who not only abhorred female company of all kinds but merited that he would break into other geldings paddocks and display teasing behavior with them. Was it romantic? No. It certainly wasn't "love" as humans view it -- but anyone who is emotionally intelligent in an interspecies manner knows that an animal's love and adoration are just as profound and worthy regardless of the gender tied to it. 


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## cagedbirdsinging

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

This is an excellent read on the subject with many reference materials. It is a complex and debated subject to be sure, but the bottom line is that these behaviors are exhibited in both sexual and social manners. For all intents and purposes, we are then able to say that some animals do appear to occasionally be "homosexual".

Side-note: As a member of the LGBTQ community, I confidently state that the scientific discussion of homosexual behavior in animals should in no way cause offense to their human counterparts as we are simply discussing facts of nature. Please do not turn this into a political discussion when it has no place here, lest the thread become locked.


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## iHayleyNorris

I know it's not a choice. Never said it was. Merely said animals are not capable of having romantic emotions.


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## iHayleyNorris

Just cuz you're part of the LGBTQ community and YOU aren't offended by it doesn't mean that another member of the LGBTQ community is NOT offended by it. Just sayin'. You have to be very careful with what you say on these topics. Very touchy. And I think it's funny that it was assumed that I was saying sexuality was a "choice" made. Lol.


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## ratchet

> Silly question. Humans are the only creatures with intellect high enough to make a choice of gender preference.


Not to be catty but I think it's right there. 


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## iHayleyNorris

Stating that animals can be gay, but not have romantic relationships is a falsehood. Because being gay isn't a mental state, but an emotional and physical part of an individual. As I'm sure you understand, cagedbird. 

The state of "being gay" is far too complex to apply to something as simplistic as an animal. It's a biocultural concept and one cannot look at animals bioculturally because they lack the "cultural" part. 


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## ratchet

Well, don't let me do the arguing - there's plenty of written compiled evidence that animals have attachment, emotional bonds, loyalty, even the barebone dredges of "love" evident in their pathology. Just follow the link cagedbird supplied. 

Of course, if love isn't any of these things I surely have to do some readjustments. 


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## iHayleyNorris

*facepalm* 

"Choice," as in a selection and differentiation between male and female. Animals do not make the cognitive leap to sort boy, girl, boy, girl. People do. 

As a heterosexual female, one would look at a room full of people and choose to flirt with the males rather than waste one's time on the females one is not interested in.

As a homosexual female, the exact opposite decision is made.

True, it's not a conscious decision, but a choice made by the chemicals brain. A person does not choose which chemicals to produce exactly, but one could also choose not to react to those chemicals and live a chaste life. 

Every action is a choice made by one part of the brain or another. In fact, your very next breath is a choice your medulla oblongata makes for you all the time.

So no, one does not "choose" which gender to prefer, but acting upon that preference is a choice.


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## iHayleyNorris

You take my posts and latch on to a technicality. 

I thoroughly enjoy a debate, but when you can no longer produce facts for your side and latch to technicalities, I'm finished.

Thank you for the most interesting debate.


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## cagedbirdsinging

iHayleyNorris said:


> Because being gay isn't a mental state, but an emotional and physical part of an individual. As I'm sure you understand, cagedbird.


Precisely. And many, many animal species exhibit emotion through the same neural pathways as humans do. And of course they all have the physical parts as well.

Therefore, regardless of what someone as an individual claims what "being gay" means to them, the fact remains that it is a part of the animal world to some extent.


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## Awaiting_Abyss

iHayleyNorris said:


> However, if you want an answer as to whether or not your male rat is capable of falling in love with another male rat and desire a romantic relationship, then the answer is no. Rats, being intelligent, complex, and emotional, are not capable of the complexity that is romance.
> 
> Certain animal species in the wild do sometimes mate for life. However, they do not do this out if a warm fuzzy feeling in their hearts. They do this so that they can guarantee a mate for the next mating season, and often to ensure the survival of their offspring by raising them as a team. Not out of love, but due to functionality.


Animals are quite capable of love and "romance." There are many, many animals who mate for life and if their mate dies they often will not take a new mate. Mating for life is not something that "ensures they have a mate for the next season" it is a bond that the two have made. To be honest, I'd say many animals have more romantic and loving relationships than many humans.


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## iHayleyNorris

Ok, I'm interested again.


Since everyone else has put their 2 cents in, here's mine:
I don't believe "love" exists at all. It's merely a mechanism created by the brain to perpetuate our species. A cocktail of chemicals is released and the brain interprets them as the 3 stages of "love". 
Stage 1: Lust. Caused by our sex hormones (testosterone or estrogen). 
Stage 2: Attraction. Caused by Adrenaline and Dopamine
Stage 3: Attachment. Caused by Oxytocin, which is released during intercourse, childbirth, and in mothers nursing their infants.
Simply chemicals tricking us into reproducing. Humans label it "love," when truly, it's only natural selection and self preservation at its finest.


So, if you believe my 2 cents, even humans aren't capable of love. Maybe animals feel the same way we do about mating as we do, with the same chemicals in the brain. They just lack the ability to label it "love" or give it a name. What of rats really do fall in "love" or it's equivalent? 


Things to ponder.




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## cagedbirdsinging

If your own ideas regarding emotions are that atypical, of course the answer to the question in the original post will reflect that opinion.

That said, calling the question itself silly based on that opinion is a bit harsh. The post was legitimate and was not intended to spark political commentary


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## iHayleyNorris

If you read my original comment, I have a somewhat silly answer to this "silly question." It was humorous because my comment painted a picture of perhaps 2 male rats falling in love over a candle light dinner. Clearly, it's not as silly and fun as it was originally.


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## Camelle

ratchet said:


> This might become a heated discussion.
> 
> Since WHEN is being homosexual a CHOICE?
> 
> to answer your question, yes -- I think it's possible. Preliminary studies promote the theory that homosexuality is the result of certain chemicals in the brain being wired differently via genetics - and greatly supports the thought that sometimes homosexuals "look" more like the other sex. There is also the theory that when a species reaches its peak in population and a species collapse is imminent that offspring exhibit homosexual behavior - as a self defense mechanism to prevent the downfall of the species. It is a theory that as of yet only has preliminary results and I am anxiously eyeing results. But I firmly believe some animals are just born that way and it should not make any difference to anyone if they are.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


THANK YOU!!!! I was just about to ask the same thing!!! It doesn't make a difference to me and I hope no one else thinks that's what I meant. At least not a negative difference. I would be honored to have 'gay' rats especially since I myself am bisexual and a huge supporter of gay rights. My best friend and date for prom is gay.


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## Camelle

iHayleyNorris said:


> If you read my original comment, I have a somewhat silly answer to this "silly question." It was humorous because my comment painted a picture of perhaps 2 male rats falling in love over a candle light dinner. Clearly, it's not as silly and fun as it was originally.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My question was neither meant to be humorous nor was it meant to be silly therefore your "silly", "humorous", and "funny" response was neither called for nor appreciated. It's actually a bit insulting. Also the sarcasm of your "humorous picture" was very much uncalled for and inappropriate.


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## mistymornings18

Well I believe (no point in quoting me either because I'm firm in my beliefs) that being gay is a choice so of course I don't think animals can choose to be that way as they don't have the same thought processes humans do. 
They may bond closely to their cage mates but I believe it is more of a family like bond then a love for sexual pleasure bond. 

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## Camelle

Well I respect your opinion thank you. I really didn't mean the question to have anything to do with the pleasure of sex at all I meant all the gay people I know including myself aren't gay for the sex and the pleasure of it.


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## Jenzie

Saying that love isn't real because it's caused by chemicals is the same as saying fear and depression aren't real. Every emotion we feel is caused by chemicals, that doesn't make our emotions "not real". If anything that makes it more real because it can, to some extent, be quantified. Like humans, animals do have tons of chemicals and hormones going through their bodies. It's hard to tell what they're thinking, but animals can definitely show a preference for one gender over another. Sure, an animal doesn't consciously think "I only like other animals who are the same gender as me!" the way a human might, but, say, a male rat could think "male pheromones = good, female pheromones = bad". I'd say that's a gay rat. Sure, "gay", "straight", and such terms are human terms and may not necessarily fit on animals in a scientific sense, but I still think in general terms they work fine.

Here's a very short article about two male bonded penguins who were given an egg and took turns incubating it the same way an opposite sex penguin couple would: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/denmark-gay-penguins-fathers_n_2104190.html


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## Jokerfest

Wikipedia says it's possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Most animals display homosexual behavior.


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## ratazana

Same sex attraction is completely natural in the animal kingdom... The proof is out there... I'm not sure why that's being debated.

Secondly, I am gay, and believe me, I didn't choose to be gay... My life would be so much easier if I was heterosexual. Why would I choose a life less-privileged? Unless you're a part of the LGBTQ community, you have no right to assume anything about us... You have no idea the type of threats & violence I have gone through for being gay. Why would I CHOOSE to live a life that makes me feel like an outcast?

When did you choose to be straight?


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## ratazana

Jenzie said:


> Saying that love isn't real because it's caused by chemicals is the same as saying fear and depression aren't real. Every emotion we feel is caused by chemicals, that doesn't make our emotions "not real". If anything that makes it more real because it can, to some extent, be quantified. Like humans, animals do have tons of chemicals and hormones going through their bodies. It's hard to tell what they're thinking, but animals can definitely show a preference for one gender over another. Sure, an animal doesn't consciously think "I only like other animals who are the same gender as me!" the way a human might, but, say, a male rat could think "male pheromones = good, female pheromones = bad". I'd say that's a gay rat. Sure, "gay", "straight", and such terms are human terms and may not necessarily fit on animals in a scientific sense, but I still think in general terms they work fine.
> 
> Here's a very short article about two male bonded penguins who were given an egg and took turns incubating it the same way an opposite sex penguin couple would: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/denmark-gay-penguins-fathers_n_2104190.html


_
"Saying that love isn't real because it's caused by chemicals is the same as saying fear and depression aren't real."_

Exactly! You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Hephaestion

Oh wow, it seems that there are quite a few LGBTQ folks (myself included) with an interest in rats. We should have a convention  I think I should organise a rat expo at gay pride in Dublin this Summer!


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## ratazana

Hephaestion said:


> Oh wow, it seems that there are quite a few LGBTQ folks (myself included) with an interest in rats. We should have a convention  I think I should organise a rat expo at gay pride in Dublin this Summer!


Oh wow! Imagine a LGBTQ rat convention!!! haha That would make me so happy.


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## Camelle

I completely agree!! I vote we have a party and bring our gay rats with us!!! ^.^ Dublin's a bit far away though... And ratazana I LOVE your comment and COMPLETELY agrre! Thank you for your wonderful words!! Also if you ever wanna talk about anything I'm totally here for you!!!!


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## ratazana

Camelle said:


> I completely agree!! I vote we have a party and bring our gay rats with us!!! ^.^ Dublin's a bit far away though... And ratazana I LOVE your comment and COMPLETELY agrre! Thank you for your wonderful words!! Also if you ever wanna talk about anything I'm totally here for you!!!!


We can build the rats tiny little pride parade floats. Squeeee! 

And thank you for reaching out to me, I appreciate that. Life is tough sometimes when you live in a world that is catered to straight people, & you're reminded on a daily basis that you're the "other" kind of person. But I'm very proud now, & I am lot stronger now than I was several years ago. 

Thank you again <3


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## Jenzie

Camelle said:


> I completely agree!! I vote we have a party and bring our gay rats with us!!! ^.^ Dublin's a bit far away though... And ratazana I LOVE your comment and COMPLETELY agrre! Thank you for your wonderful words!! Also if you ever wanna talk about anything I'm totally here for you!!!!


Lol! I love this. Dye their fur rainbow colors with kool-aid!


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## ratazana

At first this thread was frustrating me... Now I have images of gay rats on parade in my head. This is great!


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## Camelle

ratazana said:


> We can build the rats tiny little pride parade floats. Squeeee!
> 
> And thank you for reaching out to me, I appreciate that. Life is tough sometimes when you live in a world that is catered to straight people, & you're reminded on a daily basis that you're the "other" kind of person. But I'm very proud now, & I am lot stronger now than I was several years ago.
> 
> Thank you again <3


Yeah I totally understand!!! It can be very hard but it's worth it because it makes you stronger in the end! And YESS!! Yes we can!!!


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## ratchet

ratazana said:


> Same sex attraction is completely natural in the animal kingdom... The proof is out there... I'm not sure why that's being debated.
> 
> Secondly, I am gay, and believe me, I didn't choose to be gay... My life would be so much easier if I was heterosexual. Why would I choose a life less-privileged? Unless you're a part of the LGBTQ community, you have no right to assume anything about us... You have no idea the type of threats & violence I have gone through for being gay. Why would I CHOOSE to live a life that makes me feel like an outcast?
> 
> When did you choose to be straight?


Well said. If you ever need to vent or express you frustration I'm here for you! I'm always a PM away. Two of my family members and my best friend are part of LGBT community and I know that undeserved scorn, hate, ridicule and contempt are out there. I certainly know nothing chooses to be the way it is (that is like saying people choose to be blue eyed or have olive skin)

If anything, the members at RF are always here for you too!


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## Ratty859

ratazana said:


> At first this thread was frustrating me... Now I have images of gay rats on parade in my head. This is great!



That sounds fabulous!!! I would die if I missed something that epic
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## applekiwi1992

I to am quite glad to see so many other LGBTQ community on here . I personally think a rat could be gay and it wouldn't be a choice. I didn't make the choice to be a lesbian nobody in there right mind would choose a life so discriminated against.


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## Jokerfest

Camelle are Thor and Loki a item or something now? xD
I'd love to come to this parade! Though I'm not gay I'm Pansexual (I'll go for anyone who attracts me on a emotional level).
I was kinda scared to comment on this thread with more than a few sentences at first because of possible backlash from people but now that I see there are so many like minded people on here I feel alright putting in my two cents.

Being gay is as much of a choice as your sex.
You didn't choose to be straight you're just attracted to the opposite sex.
Gay people/animals didn't choose to be gay they're just attracted to the same sex.
Just like You didn't chose what sexual organs you're born with you dont chose what your sexual orientation is.
People who DO 'chose' to be with the same sex in my experience usually are confused and dont know what they want.


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## Smilebud

Given the newest turn of the conversation, I feel oddly left-out being straight 

I am under the personal opinion that my dog is gay. We used to breed dogs, and he was our last stud. It took us three years after his prime before he even tried to do his stuff... we only got one litter from him, and he still has no interest in females.

I know of 2 people who's male rats have/had no interest in girls. They sniff through the bars, some grooming, but that's it. No frantic snuffling around the cage or anything. They even used to keep their one older male with the girls, unaltered. Never had a litter. He just had no desire.

I think it's just a hormone thing. It's different for every living thing.

I would say animals can be gay, by ''human'' standards, because everything feels love. Maybe not lust, but attachment. That's the most important part. If you had no attachment to your other half, life would be a series of one night stands. If lust defines love, I don't want to live in this world anymore.


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## Willieboo

I love that this thread has brought so many people together instead of the other way around. <3 I was afraid to say anything, too, and still kind of am...but watching the conversation go on and become something so positive and and supportive has been wonderful. What a lovely community. c: I've got nothing to say on the topic of sexuality really since I think it's all been said....

But, reflectively, I think it's worth saying that love has always been something so complex and deep that, while humans have tried to whittle it down to science, no one has really ever been able to explain at its fullest, in every nook and cranny of how it works (just like no one's ever been able to explain everything about how the human body works in its entirety. There will always be mysteries people can't solve). The reason why I believe it's not just some boiled-down chemical reaction is that there are soooo many different kinds of love that can't be classified under the mundane single explanation of propagation, waaaay past sexual attraction, that still all classify as love, tried and true. I know everyone's been talking about sexual attraction mostly. 

But for me, the only love and the strongest, most indestructible love I've ever had is with my family--my parents, my brother--and my friends. And that kind of bond that we share with each other, that kind of love which extends into all these other genres and expressions too, remaining the same, cannot simply be stewed into the broth of reproductive reasoning. (And forgive me if I'm interpreting this the wrong way, but then, wouldn't saying that 'love is only a chemical desire to reproduce' be like saying the only reason I love my family so much I would die for them is because of some chemical desire of prospective propagation? Excuse me, but that is most certainly _not _the case. D: )

I personally find more peace and happiness in life by floating atop the heart and soul of things and just appreciating and marveling at the depth and complexity of the mysterious world and love in all its forms...rather than trying to formulate it out in a test tube. c: That's all I've got up my sleeve.


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## Camelle

Jokerfest said:


> Camelle are Thor and Loki a item or something now? xD
> I'd love to come to this parade! Though I'm not gay I'm Pansexual (I'll go for anyone who attracts me on a emotional level).
> I was kinda scared to comment on this thread with more than a few sentences at first because of possible backlash from people but now that I see there are so many like minded people on here I feel alright putting in my two cents.
> 
> Being gay is as much of a choice as your sex.
> You didn't choose to be straight you're just attracted to the opposite sex.
> Gay people/animals didn't choose to be gay they're just attracted to the same sex.
> Just like You didn't chose what sexual organs you're born with you dont chose what your sexual orientation is.
> People who DO 'chose' to be with the same sex in my experience usually are confused and dont know what they want.


Apparently!! xD Amen!! You preach it girl!!!


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## Camelle

Smilebud said:


> Given the newest turn of the conversation, I feel oddly left-out being straight
> 
> I am under the personal opinion that my dog is gay. We used to breed dogs, and he was our last stud. It took us three years after his prime before he even tried to do his stuff... we only got one litter from him, and he still has no interest in females.
> 
> I know of 2 people who's male rats have/had no interest in girls. They sniff through the bars, some grooming, but that's it. No frantic snuffling around the cage or anything. They even used to keep their one older male with the girls, unaltered. Never had a litter. He just had no desire.
> 
> I think it's just a hormone thing. It's different for every living thing.
> 
> I would say animals can be gay, by ''human'' standards, because everything feels love. Maybe not lust, but attachment. That's the most important part. If you had no attachment to your other half, life would be a series of one night stands. If lust defines love, I don't want to live in this world anymore.


Nah don't feel left out!! Anyone of any orientation is welcome to join in I know most of use at least, won't bite!! <3


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## LetTheRightOneIn

Loving the LGBTTQ* community on this board <3


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## Jaguar

Keep on topic please! You're more than welcome to move this discussion to the lounge, but the Rat Related Forums section is for rat discussion only


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## ratazana

Jaguar said:


> Keep on topic please! You're more than welcome to move this discussion to the lounge, but the Rat Related Forums section is for rat discussion only


Will do! I'll go make a specific thread for this


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## Isamurat

I saw a really interesting program on this once, it was pretty compelling in the case for homosexuality in animals. I remember one test they carried out with a goat who was given a number of choices of mate, he would always go for the male, and if there was no male present he wasnt interested. I do believe a level of homosexuality occurs in all animals, however I dont think its as commonly clear cut as in humans, mainly due to the fact there is no natural benefit to it, if anything those rats will not reproduce (though in theory the females could as they arent given much choice in mating).

I do think though that often people read human behaviour in there rats. Rats speak a different language to us and things like mounting cage mates of the same sex doesnt mean they are attracted to them. In most cases mounting is a dominance behaviour. I also think that animals in general are not bound by lables at all (much in the way that humans arent really but sometimes choose to be). A friend once spoke to me about a book she read that spoke about the sheer variety, that there wasnt just black and white, I.e. you are gay or you aren't. I think this is closer to what rats and other animals are, theh can form attachements and bonds regardless of sex much like us. I think essentially im saying that regaregardless of if I had a rat that exhibited homosexual or straight behaviour I wouldnt lable them as one or the other, they cannot talk to me, tell me how they feel, to superimpose my own rules or code to them is doing them a disservice really. Ive kept rats now for 25 years and im considered pretty good at reading them (something I assign a good part due to growing up with them) but with something as deep as this I wouldnt be comfortable in labelling them. Take a buck who avoided does and favoured the company of bucks, is he homosexual, or just shy and comofrtable with the sex he knows and smells the same, or does he find mad girls too active and annoying and so on.


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## socal_sarah

Ratty859 said:


> That sounds fabulous!!! I would die if I missed something that epic


I'm with Ratty! I'd TOTALLY be in for a ratty convention & parade!


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## Kaliloca

I've seen my girls breeding many times. 

Must be trying to get out frustrations. LOL


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## Rat_King

iHayleyNorris said:


> Silly question. Humans are the only creatures with intellect high enough to make a choice of gender preference. The only animals that have sex for pleasure are humans and dolphins. Everything else uses it solely for the purpose of reproduction. Pan paniscus, AKA bonobos (a type of chimpanzee) sometimes use sexual behaviors such as genital-genital rubbing to strengthen bonds, but never for pleasure.
> 
> Therefore, rats, who are no where near intellectual enough to find pleasure in sexual behaviors, cannot be gay. A male may mistake another male and try to mount him, or this mounting can be used to establish dominance. However, I promise your rat feel no sexual tension whatsoever towards another rat of the same gender.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually there are many homosexual couples in the animal kingdom. Male lions have been seen grooming, nuzzling, and mounting eachother. Male elephants will intertwine trunks and mount eachother as well.


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