# Your opinions?



## AlexzRose

So what is your opinion on people who have rats of known HEALTHY lineage and breed them? Just a question. Just curious about all your answers.

I've just noticed alot of "hating" toward people who have bred their rats. Just to clarify, I am definitely not talking about anyone who intentionally has bred their PET STORE rats. I'm talking about people who know their rats backrounds for generations.


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## savveth

I think as long as the demand is in need, it is ok to breed rats of PROVEN lineage. When I say proven lineage, I mean rats that have come from an established breeder that the breeder stated is breeding material. That is the only case. Now if rats are not in demand and you dont have a waiting list, there is no point to breed because you have no homes for the rats. the woman I got my rats from was running a rattery that had just started, but she had a mentor who had ran an ESTABLISHED rattery for several years. She got a breeding pair from the breeder and bred her first litter only when she had started a waiting list. Also, she had the money and resources to keep any babies that werent adopted, so everything went fine, the babies got adopted, and she plans on breeding again in the future.


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## renay

There is a BIGGGGG difference between backyard breeders and responsible breeders. I'm dealing with a backyard hairless breeder right now who is absolutely ignorant to rats needs yet she breeds them, THAT is what I'm against, that and people who claim to have 50 accidental litters.. I'm sorry, but I'm not stupid, I catch on quickly enough lol.


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## JennieLove

Well said savveth.


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## AlexzRose

Thanks guys! 

I really appreciate your input. I'm just curious cos breeding interests me. I'm not planning on breeding anytime soon though. I'm only going to be getting my first pair of males next month. I wanna go to shows and talk to more established breeders first.

I used to own hamsters and I even showed one but I never bred because I never felt all that much of attachment in return from them. They would come around if I had food but other than that they were off doing their own thing.
I dunno I was just curious. I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to get flamed the instant I put out there that I have an interest in breeding.
But believe me when I say it would be next year at the very soonest, probably later if all goes well with my first pair. If I can imagine my house full of rats after a few months with my first boys then I might consider it more seriously.. but right now I'm just tossing the idea around.

Sorry if this is a bit.... jumbled. My mind is kind of scattered today.


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## mopydream44

I just wanted to add that I don't think anyone should breed......professional, responsible, or amature if there is a local rescue or shelter that has ratties waiting to be adopted. 

People won't adopt from a rescue when they can get a "cute" or "cool" marking from a breeder, and that leaves many animals without a proper home! 

I think if you want to breed and do it right you should find any rescues located near you and only breed when no other animals are available for adoption. 

I also feel if people really want ratties it shouldn't matter too much what color they are! 

this is only my opinion though  

On a side note: 
I've seen several new members say they were afraid of getting flamed (in one way or another) that makes me sad.......I don't think anyone should be afriad to post because of backlash..........I still think most of the members are very kind/helpful people, so in the very least don't be afraid to post because I think everyone is capable of adult conversations............btw the proper adult age is 12 so no excuses  

ok i'm tired and rambling


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## OnlyOno

when i first joined i noticed a lot people getting flamed, not only newbies who had never had rats before, and i'm sorry to say it's just as bad as it was. i warned a few newbies after myself about it and i actually got a personal message saying "hey don't spread it around that we flame newbies because we don't". pretty sure that was the rudest thing to ever happen to me. all i ever said was "hey change your bedding real quick before someone goes into a 3-page rant about proper rat care", etc. i think there are a lot of members here who have little to no tolerance, honestly.


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## Kimmiekins

I am fine with those who mentor under *established* breeders who hopefully are members in good standing with rat clubs. This means learning for a good year or more, and finding out all the information you'd need to know. Then, purchasing a breeding pair from the mentor breeder.

I akin breeders who don't do this to backyard breeders. There isn't a large difference, really. Anyone *can* breed rats. However, there are so many domestic rats out there already homeless. Why add to the population if you won't be *enhancing* the fancy?

Just my opinion. I love this page from one of my favorite rat sites, as it pretty much follows what I believe:
http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/breeding/index.php?chapter=deciding

I also think ANYONE who's even considering breeding should read this page as well:
http://www.curiosityrats.com/infobreed.html

I'd encourage anyone who's interested in breeding down the line to foster pregnant moms and litters for a local rescue or shelter, to see what having babies and raising them is like. It's not all fun and games - I can tell you that from LOTS of experience!


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## mopydream44

> i think there are a lot of members here who have little to no tolerance, honestly.


hmmm...I'm not sure I've seen a member jump on anyone right off the bat about anything. To me it seems like people gather information before they bring out the "heat." I think what happens more often is one of two things get members really upset, and in turn, they become jaded. I think it's more likely that a member will be "flamed" for something small when it's "the last straw." It's times like that we can all step back and cool down but there are people who are infuriating and should be lectured. I dunno........... thinks are bound to heat up when you have so many passionate people on one forum but........

1. "Nothing great in the world has ever been accomplished without passion"
2. It keeps things interesting and people on their toes
3. It's only the internet!  



> I'd encourage anyone who's interested in breeding down the line to foster pregnant moms and litters for a local rescue or shelter, to see what having babies and raising them is like. It's not all fun and games - I can tell you that from LOTS of experience!


I think that is a wise use of a persons time.


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## JennieLove

When someone is doing something wrong and say 5 people try to tell them what should be done, all of a sudden we are targeted as the ones who are "flaming" and being "rude". What are we suppose to say? "No, heres what you are suppose to do, but you dont have to do it if you dont want to..." It just doesnt make sense. Yes, people on here do get fed-up-with, but for good reason. So many people here DO NOT want to listen to the more experianced rat owners and they go from forum to forum asking the same **** questions and becuase they dont get the answer THEY want to hear, they say we are the ones who are wrong? Or there are the people who are constantly told what they are doing wrong, in hopes they would change whats wrong, and becuase they never did anythign about the situation, they end up with a sick rat that should be taken to a vet...which never happends becuase "they have no money"....There are very good reasons to be anrgy with some people here, and its never EVER caused for no reason at all...


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## mopydream44

> ....There are very good reasons to be anrgy with some people here, and its never EVER caused for no reason at all...


that's what I was trying to say. Like I said, I've never seen a person ask a question and have a ton of people yell at them without getting the facts first. Mostly I've seen difference of opinion where two people feel very strongly about their side; however, those have usually concluded in a mature way adopting the agree to disagree route. 

I caught a few threads when a person was yelled at but I know if I go back and read them every member was helpful and polite at first until the person does things like forum hop, ignore advice, and any number of infuriating things that I've seen people do. The funny thing is I don't think i'd notice a double post myself because there are so many members, so it's nice to know people are looking out for irresponsible owners............

I do feel, on one hand if a person joins it shows responsibility because I know there are plenty of owners who just buy rats, believe what they are told at a pet store, and have a good 1 year run with their "pets." 

but, on the other hand, what is the point of joing a forum if a person is unwilling to take advise!!! 

soooooooo anyhoo if I was misunderstood (it was very tired and unfocused last night when I typed it) I DON'T believe people have been "flamed" wrongfully, and if they have I have no doubt apologies were made and all was right with the world again. I think if it appears that a member has no tolerance they were just having a bad day from a pile of ignorance served on a chipped platter, rather several. I DON'T think any of the frequently posting members have little to no tolerance, they seem kind and helpful, and often times willing to hold their tongue, so a rat gets helped!! 

I know this is getting long but I would like to add this

If you are willing to admit you're wrong when you make a mistake, and you are willing to take advice because you are a responsible and loving care giver for your animal then you have NOTHING to fear. We are all hear to share our love of ratties and help and educate new members. I personally would like to return the favor because I have benefitted tremendously from joining this forum


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## savveth

Breeding is a big responsibility. If you dont mind me asking, how old are you? I know I considered breeding, but there is so much you have to put into it. I would really rather foster. But to breed it could take many years...buuutt if you do want to start a rattery, find a mentor. Here, Ill give you some that you can contact about mentoring.

http://rattery.homestead.com/
Bellarattas Nest
---> Bella is really nice and informative and has mentored people before and is mentoring people now

http://www.pxrats.com/
Phoenix Gate Rattery
--->Im not sure if she mentors, but you could ask her about it.

Make sure you do tons of research, get a mentor, and foster.

EDIT:::

Also, this is a very good topic about breeding on another forum im on. I suggest you at least skim over all of it!

http://floridarat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2276


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## AlexzRose

savveth said:


> Breeding is a big responsibility. If you dont mind me asking, how old are you? I know I considered breeding, but there is so much you have to put into it. I would really rather foster. But to breed it could take many years...buuutt if you do want to start a rattery, find a mentor. Here, Ill give you some that you can contact about mentoring.
> 
> http://rattery.homestead.com/
> Bellarattas Nest
> ---> Bella is really nice and informative and has mentored people before and is mentoring people now
> 
> http://www.pxrats.com/
> Phoenix Gate Rattery
> --->Im not sure if she mentors, but you could ask her about it.
> 
> Make sure you do tons of research, get a mentor, and foster.
> 
> EDIT:::
> 
> Also, this is a very good topic about breeding on another forum im on. I suggest you at least skim over all of it!
> 
> http://floridarat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2276


Thank you for the info. Where is Bella located? I'm 20 and live in Central California. Oh, and I've already contacted a lady in a city near me that runs a rescue and I've volunteered to foster for her.


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## AlexzRose

Oh sorry I just looked at Bella's website and saw that she's in Florida? I think?
Lol.

Well is that too far to mentor me? Its not like we could ever speak in person. I dunno, just a question.


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## savveth

hmmm. you would have to email her and ask. Im not too sure about the mentoring business. I suggest trying to find someone closer to you i guess, because you will eventually get a breeding pair from your mentor, and floridas a looooooonnnnnngggggg way away from cali, lol.


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## Kimmiekins

I'm glad you're volunteering at a rescue first.  There is a HUGE overpopulation of rats in CA, as you may be aware... There seems to be a hoarding case once a year or more that yields hundreds of rats. I'm not actually sure off the top of my head if there are any established breeders. I could ramble off rescues in CA, but that doesn't help.


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## Stephanie

Out of curiosity what rescue are you looking to volunteer for?


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## Stephanie

Kimmiekins said:


> I'm glad you're volunteering at a rescue first.  There is a HUGE overpopulation of rats in CA, as you may be aware... There seems to be a hoarding case once a year or more that yields hundreds of rats. I'm not actually sure off the top of my head if there are any established breeders. I could ramble off rescues in CA, but that doesn't help.


There are a few good breeders in my area but as far as the rescues go there are more in need of foster homes. As far as the hoarder situation there is a really sad one ging on right now that Northstar rescue is helping. If these rats don't get a foster home they will be put down.

Here is a link to the hoarding case that NorthStar is dealing with right now.


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## Kimmiekins

You defintally hear more about the rescues than the breeders, Stephanie. And for good reason!

Oh geez, I hadn't heard about the latest one.  I sure wish we were closer to help, but a rattie train from San Jose to Cincinnati would be horrid (I know, because I've bused there and back a few times!).


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## AlexzRose

Stephanie said:


> Out of curiosity what rescue are you looking to volunteer for?


I found her on petfinder.org. She seems to be just starting because she only has a pair of rats and a pair of cavys.

http://west.petfinder.com/shelters/CA841.html

I'm supposed to be meeting with her sometime next week to discuss me fostering.


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## AlexzRose

Kimmiekins said:


> I'm glad you're volunteering at a rescue first.  There is a HUGE overpopulation of rats in CA, as you may be aware... There seems to be a hoarding case once a year or more that yields hundreds of rats. I'm not actually sure off the top of my head if there are any established breeders. I could ramble off rescues in CA, but that doesn't help.


Yes, I've found several breeders within 5 hours of me. I've already been put on a waiting list for a pair of males here:

Happy Go Lucky Rattery


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## Stephanie

well good for you alex! It is wonderful that you are already meeting with her. If you want to know anything about volunteering feel free to ask. I learned early on that it is taxing and time consuming and cvan be heart breaking but when you do help it is so rewarding. Please if you don't listen to anything else I ever have to say PLEASE listen to this. the hardest part of volunteering is learning the fact that there is NO WAY you can save them all. It is hard and it hurts BUT do what you can for those you can do for. As long as you keep that in mind it becomes easier to deal with.

Kimmiekins - - There is a link on that page that you can help out with donations or anything else. I feel horrible because I am packed to the brim with animals right now so I can't foster at all. I have 13 resident rats, getting 10 foster rats tomorrow (seven of them are pinkies!!!) one hamster, three cats, three fish and two small children in a two bedroom apartment LoL Lucky I am always home to deal with the animals and keep cages clean.


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## Kimmiekins

I hear ya, Stephanie. We've got our 12 rats that are pets, 20 rats in the rescue (all here, none currently in foster - thankfully, though, we got a mama in for an e-spay and prevented another litter and we've had a few adoptions recently and got the numbers down from nearly 30), plus our 2 dogs, a cat and a mouse. And both of my parents need taking care of. :\ That said, this is a house, I can't imagine how you managed to fit everyone in!  I can't work due to health issues, so I'm there, too. 

Anyhow, I'll spread the word and see what help we can get for that rescue.


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## AlexzRose

Yea, I know not being able to save or keep them all is going to be hard. 
Luckily right now I have lots of free time to spend with my future rats and rescues since my husband is the only one working. I am interested in breeding but I know how important rescue is too. 

Do you guys ever have foster rats that dont get along with your own? I was thinking of just fostering males for now so that they can share the same cage as my own 2. So I should probably have atleast 2 cages to be on the safe side huh?

Thank for all your help guys! 

I'm also nervous about getting my two boys in September. I just want everything to go smoothly...


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## AlexzRose

Awww... I just read the page about the San Jose case. Those poor rats! I am very tempted to help out.. but I wanted to wait at least a month after I got my boys to foster. To make sure they got settled and that I wasn't gonna overwhelm myself. (I also have 4 dogs and one is a 3 month old mastiff...so I do already have a bit of responsibility)

But looking at those pictures made me so sad. Their little faces pulled at my heartstrings... 

I wanna help.... maybe I should just adopt one after I'm settle with my two? What do you guys think?


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## Stephanie

AlexzRose said:


> Do you guys ever have foster rats that dont get along with your own? I was thinking of just fostering males for now so that they can share the same cage as my own 2. So I should probably have atleast 2 cages to be on the safe side huh?
> 
> Thank for all your help guys!
> 
> I'm also nervous about getting my two boys in September. I just want everything to go smoothly...


The rescue should provide you a cage for your fosters you should ALWAYS quarantine for at least two weeks. My fosters are rarely ,if ever, even the same room together. It is really important that you know this and I hope that the rescue will talk to you about this. If she says you can keep your fosters and your rats together I would think twice about working with her before you are more educated yourself and can help her in her rescue. A three week quarantine is best in any "rat in" situation. Please be sure to think up some good questions for this person you will be helping. Make sure you are clear on her policies and procedures before you start anything. It is really important to get everything out in the open right away. Make sure this is someone you can work with and be sure that all of your questions are answered throughly. you wna tto do the best by the rats so make sure she is willing to go over everything. Some good questions would be:

Do I pay for their food, bedding, cage, vet care, accesories or is it supplied by the rescue?

Who is my contact person in case of emergency?

What vet in my area has your infomration on file so I have no issues getting vet care in case of emergency?

Also make sure you know how many more you can handle, if you prefer boys or girls, if you already have intact males or females make sure that all cages are escape proof if there is a member of theopposite sex in your house that is also intact (to prevent ANY oops litters), Make sure you get a copy of their adoption agreement. Also make sure you believe that what they are doing is best to fit with yur vision of helping rats. If they only charge a 2 dollar donation fee chances are the rats are going for snake food and you wouldn't feel very good about fostering food. (I am in no way saying this rescue does that just pointing out an example)


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## Stephanie

As far as the San Jose hoarder situation. do what you can even if you offer your services for helping with cage cleanings once a week I am sure it will help. I wouldn't overwhelm yourself right now since everything is happening but if you really think you can handle adopting one of the rats by all means contact them. Make sure you have a vet fund in place though since these rats are not in the best of health right now. I am sure the rescue is doing everything they can but with 150 needing to be saved it is a tight squeeze for them.


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## Sparker

Alexzrose! You live in Selma!? I'm in Fresno... I work at a 24 hour vet hospital on Blackstone and Herndon. You're twenty? I'm a little older but I'd bet we know some of the same people...


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## AlexzRose

Really?? Man, I wish I worked at a vet's office. Are you a tech or something? I'm jealous. You guys arent hiring for any positions are you? lol. I'll even clean cages I dont care. hehehe.

Myspace?


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## deercreekrattery

I know this is a bit OT, but if you are looking for a mentor, be sure to get one who has the correct names for their rats on their websites. I took a look at that HGLR website and she's got alot of her varieties misnamed. If she's breeding, she really should know the difference between a Russian silver and a PEW. Not judging her as a person (I don't know this person or harbor any ill will), just stating the obvious. I would probably look elsewhere for a mentor as she's just not experienced enough to be a reliable mentor. Anyone who has only been breeding for 2-3 years really should not be mentoring anyone. Just my opinion. Look for long-term breeders like 5-10 years. There are very few of us left unfortunately as most breeders quit after 3 years or sometimes less.


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## Stephanie

Very good advice Deercreekrattery!! I agree completely if a breeder can not properly name a variety then there is something to be concerned about. Kudos to you for bringing that up.


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## chrisstrikeagain

Go for helpin the Rat hoarder case. It'll look good on records and such plusitll do ggood for the rats...
Im too far to personally help(besides donations) =[


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## AlexzRose

deercreekrattery said:


> I know this is a bit OT, but if you are looking for a mentor, be sure to get one who has the correct names for their rats on their websites. I took a look at that HGLR website and she's got alot of her varieties misnamed. If she's breeding, she really should know the difference between a Russian silver and a PEW. Not judging her as a person (I don't know this person or harbor any ill will), just stating the obvious. I would probably look elsewhere for a mentor as she's just not experienced enough to be a reliable mentor. Anyone who has only been breeding for 2-3 years really should not be mentoring anyone. Just my opinion. Look for long-term breeders like 5-10 years. There are very few of us left unfortunately as most breeders quit after 3 years or sometimes less.


Really?? I am really new to rats so I didnt even know she had them misnamed! Does anyone know of a rattery that is pretty well established? I know of Bii Rattery which is right here in Fresno but..... the lady stopped answering my emails. I had already contacted HGLR before I found her and once she found out that I was even in talks with HGLR she insisted that I buy from them since I started talking with them first. Which made no sense to me because she was closer and as the prospective buyer don't I have the right to change my mind about where I purchase my rat for any reason?? Coreect me if I'm wrong of course.

Anyways so does anyone know of any established ratteries in California?


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## deercreekrattery

I would avoid Bii Rattery as well. She is also not experienced in the breeding aspect of things and cannot possibly mentor someone as she barely speaks English and is actually quite snotty. I know of many people who have tried to deal with her, but she's very stuck up and refuses to work with other breeders or even answer their questions about her rats' pedigrees. That's a big red flag for me. 
While RRLM has some really typy rats, I also doubt her ability to mentor as she also misnames many rats on her site. She seems to make up names for them such as 'Platinum Fawn'. I also have doubts about any breeder who has 30+ litters of rats in the span of 6 months. When I see her website, I don't see an overall goal in her breedings, just lots of babies that will be able to be placed easily. More power to ya if you can place 8 litters of babies in one month, but to me it seems way excessive. Even if you didn't have another job, that's alot of time needed just to socialize them. What about the adult rats? Do they get any attention or socialization? Are they simply culled out when no longer 'useful'? When a breeder breeds that many litters and doesn't keep any out of the litters, it tells me that the breeder is not breeding to improve, they are breeding for money. The whole point of breeding is to improve and if you aren't keeping many rats out of your litters, how do you know if you are improving? You simply cannot tell how a rat is going to turn out as an adult if you place them at 5-6 weeks with pet adopters. Keeping only 1 baby out of 100 really reduces your odds of having a rat that will turn out to be a fantastic adult. Also, when a breeder breeds a 3 month old male 5-6 times, it tells me that the breeder has no patience and is not willing to wait 4 more months to see how that buck will mature. I'm sorry, but a buck can change after it's bred and a 3 month old buck, while sexually mature, is not physically or mentally mature. I hate to get on my soapbox as I don't have any problems with RRLM, just don't agree with her breeding methods.


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## AlexzRose

Thank you so much for your input. It all makes perfect sense. Which rattery is RRLM?

Wow. It is really hard to find a good rattery....


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## AlexzRose

Do you know much about any other California ratteries? Any you would recommend?


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## deercreekrattery

RRLM is Ratz Realm in CA. I've got some rats out of her lines and while they are sweet and typy, I am not 100% sold on their health. I've seen heart issues, a Zymbal gland tumor, myco issues and short lifespans in the rats out of those lines. All are things that I like to avoid in my rats.


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## AlexzRose

Hmm.. thats the other breeder I have been looking at. So there are not really any ratteries in CA that you completely recommend?


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## Stephanie

How far are you willing to travel for babies? There is a rattery in my area that is pretty god. I have two babies from her. If you want I will give you the link for her website then you can get other peoples opinions on them. Let me add here that thse are the only two breeder rats I have and I only took them because one of them, Gir, was from a pregnant rescue she took in and while he has his issues he is a great boy. Blaze is from her rats and is top notch healthy though a little bit of a punk LoL.


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## AlexzRose

I think 3-4 hours is my driving limit. Where are you located?


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## Stephanie

I am around Sacramento california. Here is her website check it out and get some feedback. Since I don't know much about breeding and am more inclined to rescue I would get others opinions about her first LOL. 

http://candirats.tripod.com/index.html

though fair warning if you do come to the Sacramento area I would be ery careful who you go to there are alot of backyard breeders around. I will pm you with a specific one since I don't want to be accused of slander or anything LoL


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## AlexzRose

Thank you so much! Sacremento is definitely a do-able drive. If I may ask what rescue are you fostering for?


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## Stephanie

I foster for Rattie Ratz I currently have two boys agouti hooded one is a rex. Their names are Buster and Keaton. The mom and seven babies I have are very pretty mom is a capped/masked agouti with a blze. the babies are only 5 days old so if you want I can give you updates on them as the weeks go on. Then if you are ready for another boy or two we can meet and you can see the babies!


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## AlexzRose

Yes please do keep me updated! I think I'm just gonna rescue instead of buy from breeders for a while. It makes me feel better. I like saving little lives when I can.


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## Stephanie

That is great of you I pm'ed some information about rattie ratz to you and hope to adopt two of the babies out to you. It would be great to be able to have updates on my fosters LOL.


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## deercreekrattery

You should try to get rats from Blue Shuze Rattery (BSR), Karen Robbins of Karen's Kritters (KK)-a big breeder with AFRMA, Bonnie Walters (BFF) or Connie Perez of Rat Genesis. They are all breeders that are very experienced, have great rats and actually work to better rats as a whole. 
Carol of [email protected]
Bonnie Walters-(805) 543-7051
Connie [email protected]
I can't find any contact info on Karen yet, but I'll keep looking.


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## AlexzRose

Thank you! I will definitely save their information for the next time I look to get a rat from a breeder. Thank you!


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## OdysseyDesign

Im coming into this thread a bit late, sorry for bringing up things that were a few pages back.

I just wanted to point out a few red flags that I noticed about HGLR. Breeding a female that was 2 months old (PCKG Madison) whom died a little over 6 months old. Bred two of the offspring from this particular litter (HGLR Mitchell and HGLR Phoebe)

PCKG Daphne also bred at 2 months of age.

registering offspring from a rescue rat from a shelter..... plans on breeding it??????

Incorrect color/marking names.

unknown pedigrees, breeding rats from pet stores. 

Finding a good breeder can be difficult but there are always signs that are right there to see, you just have to know how to find them. Do not be afraid to ask questions, ask for dates, ask for times, ask for pictures, ask for records. If a breeder is not willing to give you that information..... find another. Every breeder should have a goal as to why they are breeding a particular litter. Ask about those goals. You can easily tell when a breeder is just breeding because Sally is soooo cute and Bob has dumbo ears to a breeder that actually is working for the betterment of rats.

A breeder can not improve health nor temperament in their lines if they purposely breed pet store rats or rats with known health issues. There is a lot more to it then just having a cute little website with a registered prefix for your rattery to slap on the front of rat names.


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## PCKGRat

This is an interesting post to which I hope to reply one day soon. I think I will wait a little while though, since I'm new.

I know most of the breeders of whom everyone is speaking. In fact, I think I know most of them personally. I will give it time though.


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## Rodere

> Keep in mind, we all have to start somewhere. Some of the best rats came from petstores in the beginning (Can we say Russian Blue?). A good breeder is one that may make a mistake, but doesn't make that mistake again. A good breeder is passionate and wants to know how the rats are doing. A good breeder may sound a little mean at first (or ask a lot of questions), but will be kind in time. That's my advice.


I would like to expand on this a little. There are several different varities that have come from pet store rats. For example the Satin coat, which is still under some debate. Were it not for a breeder who found a Satin coat in a petstore, and that breeder working to improve and reproduce that coat type, we wouldn't see it very much in the rat community. It may very well have died out right there.

There are limits to breeding pet store rats. It should be done only by experienced breeders or those under the tutelage of experienced breeders, in which the mentor has full reign over the continuation or the end of that line.

I used to believe that no pet store rat should ever be bred, however I have come to believe somewhat differently. While it has it's dangers, it does have it's benefits as well. Were breeders only to work with well known, proven lines, then eventually there would be no outcrosses to infuse new blood into a line. All ratteries would be working together yes, a wonderful prospect that is, however that too has its limitations. Inbreeding it not so harmful to rats as a species and can in fact be beneficial, but after a while it could become a problem. Not to mention, if all rats were related, health problems could become even stronger and more previlent.

I know one breeder, whom I will not disclose without permission, that obtained rats from a rattery with well known lines. She introduced those lines to hers as an outcross. She soon began to have aggression issues and nearly had to discontinue the line entirely. According to her, it was her selective breeding with pet store rats that got her line back on track. Provided she knows the owner of the pet store and payed close attention to their general health and temperament.

I've run a rescue for a while now and I've seen the good and the bad of purposeful breedings of rats from unknown heritage. But with the guiding hand of a mentor who knows what they are doing, it can be done well. However it is a very slow going process. 

You have to be dedicated and ready for to end the line if serious problems (such as MG, Zucker, heart failure, etc) occur. You must be willing to start all over again if the line proves to be lacking. I know of several well known ratteries who began with unknown lineage and from all of their hard work, they have produced some of the most wonderfully mannered, beautiful and healthy rats I have ever seen. And you cannot keep introducing unknown genetics as it accomplishes nothing. But if you work closely with one family of rats, from that you can begin a wonderful line new to the rat community. But it takes generations of very selective breeding


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## sorraia

MopyDream44 said:


> I just wanted to add that I don't think anyone should breed......professional, responsible, or amature if there is a local rescue or shelter that has ratties waiting to be adopted.
> 
> People won't adopt from a rescue when they can get a "cute" or "cool" marking from a breeder, and that leaves many animals without a proper home!


Rescue rats definitely need to be placed, but at the same time, it can be tricky to say that there should be no breeders if rescue rats need homes. Honestly, with pet stores and backyard breeders producing rats like there's no tomorrow, there will ALWAYS be rescue rats looking for homes. To say no breeder should produce more rats until all the rescue rats has homes, is saying that we only want "pet store quality" rats available for pets. Rats don't live very long. Their reproductive lives are even shorter. All the "breeding quality" rats will be retired LONG before all the rescue rats are placed.

It also needs to be considered that most responsible breeders are not producing litters all the time. Most only produce one or two litters every several months, maybe even only a couple litters in a whole YEAR. These same breeders also encourage people to adopt rats from rescues, many of them also donate to rescues. These responsible breeders also take the time to make sure their rats are going to good homes, and WILL take the babies back if that home can't keep them for life. This ensures those rats are NOT going into shelters, and contributing to the problem. These breeders also take the time and effort to educate people, encouraging people NOT to breed rats willy nilly, NOT to support backyard breeders or pet stores, and NOT to just look at rats like a throw-away toy. These breeders are by far not competing with rescues, but actually HELPING the cause. 

Personally, I have actually encouraged people to adopt from rescues, EVEN when I had babies available to place. I have helped connect people to rescues to find new babies. I have also only produced a grand total of six litters this entire calendar year, a total of 51 rats that were placed (12 babies, two from each litter, were kept in my rattery), an average of 4.25 babies per month, or 0.14 rats per day were produced in my rattery over this entire year. These numbers are insignificant compared to the numbers produced by pet stores, where the majority of rescue rats ultimately come from.


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## sorraia

deercreekrattery said:


> You should try to get rats from Blue Shuze Rattery (BSR), Karen Robbins of Karen's Kritters (KK)-a big breeder with AFRMA, Bonnie Walters (BFF) or Connie Perez of Rat Genesis. They are all breeders that are very experienced, have great rats and actually work to better rats as a whole.
> Carol of [email protected]
> Bonnie Walters-(805) 543-7051
> Connie [email protected]
> I can't find any contact info on Karen yet, but I'll keep looking.


Blue Shuze is no longer breeding. Last I heard Bonnie Walters is no longer breeding. I have heard bits and pieces about Connie Perez no longer breeding, but I don't know if this is fact. Karen, as far as I am aware is still breeding, but I haven't seen any of her rats (they are never in shows, and as far as I know, the only breeders with her rats were Blue Shuze and Bii). I have personally dealt with three of the five breeders mentioned above, and without going into too much ugly detail on a public forum, I will simply suffice to say I don't trust them even as far as I can throw them, and that the breeding practices of some of the most "highly regarded" breeders are sometimes less kosher than that of even backyard breeders.


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## A1APassion

well said Sorraia


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## sorraia

To the original poster:

If you are considering breeding in the future, the first step is a responsible, reputable, experienced breeder whose goals, ambitions, and ethics are similar to yours. Yes, you have much to learn, and you will continue to learn, but there are some things you can start considering and establishing now.

First, why do you want to breed rats, what are your goals? Just to produce cute, fuzzy pets? To produce show winners? To improve the health and temperament of our beloved pets? 

What are your ethics, as a breeder? How do you feel about culling (as in, killing off the "undesired" babies)? How will you place your babies? What if a rat, young or old, is sick or injured and can't be treated or cured? How do you view euthanasia of a sick/injured rat compared to culling? 

What are you looking for in a breeder? Are there particular varieties you prefer, or do you care? 

Start looking for breeders, and contact all of them. Everything you read should be taken with a grain of salt. Talk to the breeders first, but be cautious. Ask them what their goals are, how they choose their breeders, how they select their keepers from each litter, what they look for when deciding on a pair, how they keep track of their babies, how they track and record their lines, what kind of records they keep, how far back their records go, how long they keep those records, who they work with, and so on. If you see "red flags", ASK the breeder. If you see that a breeder bred a rat at two months of age, ask them WHY. Maybe that breeder was new and didn't know any better, but now they've learned. Maybe that breeder just doesn't care and thinks it's perfectly acceptable to breed a rat at two months of age. Maybe that particular litter was an accident (and though accidents should not happen, sometimes they do, find out how many accidents, how often, and what the circumstances were; was the breeder just careless, or was the breeder in the hospital and the rats' caretaker slipped up?). If a breeder has "weird" names for colors, ASK the breeder about those colors. Not every possible color is standardized. Russian blue Burmese is not standardized, but it IS a color. Wheaten Burmese is not yet standardized, but it IS a color. Not ever color is standardized in every club. "Blue beige" is a standardized color in AFRMA, but not in other clubs. "Havanna" is a standardized color in other clubs, but not in AFRMA. If you see a color you are not familiar with, ask the breeder what it is, where it came from, the suspected genetics, and then go out and do research to find out whether or not that color actually is standardized and is just being given a "cutesy" name.

When looking for a mentor, be careful. Look for someone you agree with, but also someone who knows what they are doing. If the breeder says they do "this" find out why. If a breeder waits until six months to breed their rats, find out WHY. If the breeder bred a litter, and then didn't keep any babies, find out WHY. If a breeder's rats "disappear", find out WHERE those rats are going. Some breeders pet-place their retired breeders. Other breeders cull them. Some breeders raise ALL of the babies born, other breeders cull half the litter. Some breeders keep records on every stinking little thing that happens to their rats. Other breeders couldn't care less. Find out which breeders are which. Talk to multiple breeders, don't just talk to one and follow that person like they are the know all, be all. Once you have gotten to know different breeders, make your judgment and then pick your mentor, or even your mentors. 

And any breeder worth their salt should be willing to at least talk to you. Many breeders out there won't do that. That doesn't mean the breeder has to tell you everything and anything there is to know about breeding, but they should at least be willing to talk to you, and explain to WHY. Even as someone who is just looking for a pet, the breeder should be able to tell you WHY they paired such and such rats. 

It's a tricky road to walk. There is so much back-stabbing, so much gossip, so many rumors. So many people come into breeding, just to drop out in a couple years. With so many people coming and going, it's hard to know who is who, even harder to find one who is worth working with.


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## Rodere

> If a breeder's rats "disappear", find out WHERE those rats are going. Some breeders pet-place their retired breeders. Other breeders cull them. Some breeders raise ALL of the babies born, other breeders cull half the litter.


 8O I can't imagine doing that kind of thing. My mentor sends some of his retirees to a good friend of his nearby and visits them often. The ones he is attached to and who do well with the ever changing cagemates, he keeps with him for life. The ones who would do best in an environment that changes less, he sends to his friend.

Some breeders look down upon those who adopt out their retired rats. It's hard, I'm sure, but some rats just wouldn't do well in an environment where there are always new babies and new smells and squeaking litters. Yes they should be your pets first, but you should stop to consider what is best for them. If it is better they go to a new home once they are retired, I see no problem with it.

But to cull? That type of breeder I just want to put a nail through their foot and watch 'em squirm!


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## PCKGRat

Rodere said:


> If a breeder's rats "disappear", find out WHERE those rats are going. Some breeders pet-place their retired breeders. Other breeders cull them. Some breeders raise ALL of the babies born, other breeders cull half the litter.
> 
> 
> 
> 8O I can't imagine doing that kind of thing. My mentor sends some of his retirees to a good friend of his nearby and visits them often. The ones he is attached to and who do well with the ever changing cagemates, he keeps with him for life. The ones who would do best in an environment that changes less, he sends to his friend.
> 
> Some breeders look down upon those who adopt out their retired rats. It's hard, I'm sure, but some rats just wouldn't do well in an environment where there are always new babies and new smells and squeaking litters. Yes they should be your pets first, but you should stop to consider what is best for them. If it is better they go to a new home once they are retired, I see no problem with it.
> 
> But to cull? That type of breeder I just want to put a nail through their foot and watch 'em squirm!
Click to expand...

I have recently placed some of my retired/nonbreeding rats. The retired ones went to homes that had kids and could give them one-on-one attention. The nonbreeders I had kept to potentially breed but decided against it. They also went to very loving homes. 

A nail through the foot of cullers does not seem the proper punishment. I think their would have to be something more painful and less messy. Like bamboo shoots under the toenails or something like that.


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## deercreekrattery

I have several 'retirement' homes for my retired breeders. These people are in constant contact with me and know that they have to stay in touch with me in order to have the rats. Not all of my retired rats leave here, some are very bonded to me and me to them so they stay to be PR rats or just to help 'nanny' the younger rats. 
I tend to keep many babies much longer than the usual 6-8 weeks to evaluate them. I will often keep more than half the litter til 4-5 months or so because one cannot always tell how the rats are going to mature. If you only keep 1 or 2 babies, how can you really be sure you are choosing the right rats to continue a line? Those rats could change alot as they mature. By keeping more rats longer, you have more of an idea of who will be the best to breed from. Not everyone can do this though due to space constraints or lack of adopters willing to take older rats. Thankfully through the years I've built up quite a network of people who actually prefer to take the older rats. Yes, it does mean extra food and care of more rats, but in the long run, it is worth it because you have a better group of rats to choose from and can make better choices.


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## sorraia

deercreekrattery said:


> I tend to keep many babies much longer than the usual 6-8 weeks to evaluate them. I will often keep more than half the litter til 4-5 months or so because one cannot always tell how the rats are going to mature. If you only keep 1 or 2 babies, how can you really be sure you are choosing the right rats to continue a line? Those rats could change alot as they mature.


Yes, the rats will change a lot, and that's why we, as breeders, need to be selective. However, I think expecting every breeder to keep every baby until they are four or five months old is a bit extreme. Just because a breeder keeps two or three babies from a litter, does not mean that breeder WILL breed those babies. If one doesn't turn out as hoped, the breeder still has the second. It is harder for new breeders to pick babies, but with experience one can learn what to look for. A breeder should also look at the other rats in the line, and what those rats have produced. If a line has consistently produced long heads, the breeder knows to pay close attention to that trait in the babies. If a line has consistently produced big-boned, large rat, the breeder can, for the most part, feel comfortable that's what will be produced when two big-boned, large rats are paired. Things WILL change, but trends will also be obvious.

Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep. 



> By keeping more rats longer, you have more of an idea of who will be the best to breed from. *Not everyone can do this though due to space constraints or lack of adopters willing to take older rats.* Thankfully through the years I've built up quite a network of people who actually prefer to take the older rats. Yes, it does mean extra food and care of more rats, but in the long run, it is worth it because you have a better group of rats to choose from and can make better choices.


This is the key. Not everyone can afford to keep fifty rats (just from litters) at a time, due to time and space constraints. Not everyone has a network of people who want to adopt older rats either. There are quite a number of people who contact me who want babies. By "baby", they mean a rat that's freshly weaned, even the six to eight weeks old I adopt out are "too old" for them. Those people don't even have the opportunity to adopt my babies (there are plenty of other people who are willing to wait just a little bit longer). BUT, with the number of other breeders in my neck of the woods (off the top of my head, I can think of AT LEAST twenty or thirty people who are breeding rats, not including pet stores, and no, not all of those people are responsible, reputable, ethical, or knowledgeable breeders), and the number of pet stores, and the popularity of Craigslist as a way to "get rid" of unwanted rats because people thought it would be "fun" and "cute" to put their boy and girl together and see what happens, and the number of people in this general area (California is a BIG state, and a very populous state on top of that), I highly doubt there will ever be a major conversion towards rats they will only have for eighteen months before they die. There are too many people who don't know what they are doing to make that a possibility. Too many people who separate the babies from their mother at three and four weeks of age, as opposed to waiting closer to five weeks, let alone waiting until six to eight weeks before adopting them out. That doesn't mean a breeder shouldn't push for education, that's not what I mean at all. BUT it does make the process slower, and harder. I won't adopt to those people who don't want to wait, who don't take my adoption policies seriously, or who are caught lying to my face about who they are and what they intend for my babies. But that doesn't mean there aren't other people out there who will, and will feed and encourage that attitude. 

It's a tough road being a breeder and trying to improve on your rats. It's even tougher when the general society you live in doesn't view pets as living creatures that require care for life, but more as luxury items that need to be thrown away when they are no longer "in". It's even tougher still when within the breeder community at large there are so many different "ideals". This camp of breeders says it's ok to adopt rats out at four and five weeks of age, but this other camp says it's better to wait until six to eight weeks of age, yet another camp says everyone should keep their rats until they are five and six months of age. This group of breeders says culling is never acceptable under any circumstances (keeping in mind that culling is NOT the same as euthanasia of a sick or injured rat), yet this other groups states a responsible breeder HAS to cull their litters down to no more than six babies or else they'll starve to death and never win in shows (placing 25cent ribbons in higher regard than the rats themselves). And in the mean time you are floundering just trying to keep your head above the flurry of it all. 

In the end, WHAT is the breeder breeding for? HOW are they breeding? Are they selecting their rats and choosing their pairs for the good and betterment of the rats? (No matter how long improvement might take.) Or are they selecting their rats for their own ends, at the expense of the rats? (Culling litters down to less than half so the babies grow big and will win in shows, making themselves look better because hey! they have show winning rats.) In the end that's what is going to matter most.


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## deercreekrattery

Sorraia said:


> Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep.


Personally, I don't breed to satisfy adopters. I breed for me and the betterment of the rats as a whole. If I had it my way, I would not deal with adopters at all, but since culling is not an option, I adopt out the rats that are not breeding quality. Adopters, even if highly screened, are NOT 100% reliable and not all keep in constant touch with the breeders of their rats. I've been breeding nearly 11 years now and have plenty of experience to back me up on that. It may sound harsh to some, but adopters are not even considered when I breed a litter. I dont' breed for ribbons, but I do breed to improve their conformation, health, genetics and temperment. Those things are #1 in my book. Adopter happiness is not. Granted, I dont' want unhappy adopters, but the way I look at it, if I'm doing my job by breeding quality rats in general, I should not have to focus specifically on pleasing adopters. If an adopter cannot accept the fact that I'm keeping rats longer, then they are not adopted to. If you have high quality animals, good adopters won't care if the rats are a little older when they become available. I know that this method isn't good for everyone but it works very well for me and my adopters.


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## PCKGRat

deercreekrattery said:


> Sorraia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't breed to satisfy adopters. I breed for me and the betterment of the rats as a whole. If I had it my way, I would not deal with adopters at all, but since culling is not an option, I adopt out the rats that are not breeding quality. Adopters, even if highly screened, are NOT 100% reliable and not all keep in constant touch with the breeders of their rats. I've been breeding nearly 11 years now and have plenty of experience to back me up on that. It may sound harsh to some, but adopters are not even considered when I breed a litter. I dont' breed for ribbons, but I do breed to improve their conformation, health, genetics and temperment. Those things are #1 in my book. Adopter happiness is not. Granted, I dont' want unhappy adopters, but the way I look at it, if I'm doing my job by breeding quality rats in general, I should not have to focus specifically on pleasing adopters. If an adopter cannot accept the fact that I'm keeping rats longer, then they are not adopted to. If you have high quality animals, good adopters won't care if the rats are a little older when they become available. I know that this method isn't good for everyone but it works very well for me and my adopters.
Click to expand...

Breeding for the betterment of rats as a whole should be a priority. That is what all breeders should be doing. We should be breeding for better health, better temperament, better longevity, better conformation and to produce all-around better rats. Yet, how does one judge whether a rat is better or not. 
Shows can tell you if your rats type has improved. Though maybe they can't really judge an improvement on temperament or health.
We can judge by looking at how long they live, how healthy they are.
I think the best judge of our rats is the person who comes back in three or four years to say that their rats have passed and they want to adopt more. Or those people who refer you to another person looking for a pet. 
I think it is essential that we accept that in order to be a rat breeder, we need people to adopt our babies/youngsters. Sometimes this requires one to try to include adopters needs into the picture.
If I have a girl to breed who carries dumbo, for example, and two perfectly equal males to choose from. Why shouldn't I choose the male that carries dumbo and may produce a range of colors in the babies.
I am breeding to improve the rat, but I am also breeding to make sure each rat finds a suitable home. 
It isn't easy to find homes for a litter of 16 black standard eared babies. So the choice (when given equality in type) would be for me to choose to produce a litter of 16 dumbo and standard eared, black, Russian Blue and Siamese babies. 
I will not cull healthy rats. I don't see or understand the point of killing off innocent lives. How do you know anything about your lines anyways when you kill off half of them? It doesn't make sense.
I agree with Sorraia that the Adopter does matter. As well, Deer Creek makes a point when it comes to Adopters who don't keep in contact.


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## sorraia

deercreekrattery said:


> Personally, I don't breed to satisfy adopters. I breed for me and the betterment of the rats as a whole. If I had it my way, I would not deal with adopters at all, but since culling is not an option, I adopt out the rats that are not breeding quality.


Absolutely, I agree with you there. I breed for myself, not for the adopters. That's why I'm not producing hairless dumbo and rex dumbo rats in blue with and without markings. I don't particularly care for those varieties, even though that's what many adopters request. IF I could keep each and every single baby I would. IF I never had to deal with adopters, I wouldn't. Many times, they are more trouble than they are worth. People who have unreasonable demands (wanting me to make a variety I don't have right NOW, people who treat me as if I were a pet store open any day and time of the week, and so on) make it worse. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to not deal with adopters, since I too refuse to cull.


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## PCKGRat

Here is the rant that I posted than edited out and now am ready to repost. 



OdysseyDesign said:


> Im coming into this thread a bit late, sorry for bringing up things that were a few pages back.
> 
> I just wanted to point out a few red flags that I noticed about HGLR. Breeding a female that was 2 months old (PCKG Madison) whom died a little over 6 months old. Bred two of the offspring from this particular litter (HGLR Mitchell and HGLR Phoebe)
> 
> PCKG Daphne also bred at 2 months of age.
> 
> registering offspring from a rescue rat from a shelter..... plans on breeding it??????
> 
> Incorrect color/marking names.
> 
> unknown pedigrees, breeding rats from pet stores.
> 
> Finding a good breeder can be difficult but there are always signs that are right there to see, you just have to know how to find them. Do not be afraid to ask questions, ask for dates, ask for times, ask for pictures, ask for records. If a breeder is not willing to give you that information..... find another. Every breeder should have a goal as to why they are breeding a particular litter. Ask about those goals. You can easily tell when a breeder is just breeding because Sally is soooo cute and Bob has dumbo ears to a breeder that actually is working for the betterment of rats.
> 
> A breeder can not improve health nor temperament in their lines if they purposely breed pet store rats or rats with known health issues. There is a lot more to it then just having a cute little website with a registered prefix for your rattery to slap on the front of rat names.


Wow I'm coming in several months late. 

Madison and Daphne were bred too early. Two months is too early to breed any girl, three months is too early in most cases. I start breeding between 4 and 6 months depending on the size and development of the girl. People make mistakes. In this case, the mistakes were learned from and the situation remedied. 
Accidents also happen. Girls are crafty creatures and flagrant (insert words I will not type) when they are in season. 

Madison's death was disheartening and unfortunate. The lines are being carefully observed and no other problems have occurred. I recently discontinued a portion of my blue line because of health issues in my blue male. Blue is known for certain issues and one cropped up. 

As for HGLR, they are working towards a goal. They are actually working with Carol (Blue Shuze) and Karen (president of AFRMA) rather closely. So maybe, ask some questions before making assumptions. 
Keep in mind, we all have to start somewhere. Some of the best rats came from pet stores in the beginning (Can we say Russian Blue?). Harley, Satin, etc have come from pet stores. Other lines develop because people are willing to take a chance and be scorned in order to improve or develop these lines. 

California breeders have a bad name. Some deserve it. There are three or four types of breeders here. 
There are show breeders, who breed rats for show. They may or may not cull babies to improve the size of the remaining offspring. They are often identifiable by the fact that their rats have no names (just numbers). 

There are backyard/nasty breeders. They breed randomly for no reason maybe just because. Recently, one of these breeders bred rats that were on a pet contract. Somehow of the three litters she bred, she got all Manx. Impossible yes... Not so impossible is the fact that she cut the tails off the babies to try to make some money. This is an evil person.
There are breeders who don't last. They breed for a couple years. They may have lied to acquire pedigreed rats. You can figure out who they are by looking at their websites. If someone does not ask you to sign a contract, don't adopt from them. If you don't see on the site their residents or at least Past Litters.... it's not a good sign. If they lie or falsify things, donâ€™t bother. 

Then, there are those breeders who breed for the love of the animal and are trying to improve. I consider myself in this category. I have a goal (Burmese and Siamese). I love my rats and work on improving type and health. The breeders who I deal with also have love for the animal first. They produce litters as pets first. But still, they work to improve the lines.

A good breeder is one that may make a mistake, but doesn't make that mistake again. A good breeder is passionate and wants to know how the rats are doing. A good breeder may sound a little mean at first (or ask a lot of questions), but will be kind in time. That's my advice.



> Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Your opinions?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I would avoid Bii Rattery as well. She is also not experienced in the breeding aspect of things and cannot possibly mentor someone as she barely speaks English and is actually quite snotty. I know of many people who have tried to deal with her, but she's very stuck up and refuses to work with other breeders or even answer their questions about her rats' pedigrees. That's a big red flag for me.
> While RRLM has some really typy rats, I also doubt her ability to mentor as she also misnames many rats on her site. She seems to make up names for them such as 'Platinum Fawn'. I also have doubts about any breeder who has 30+ litters of rats in the span of 6 months. When I see her website, I don't see an overall goal in her breedings, just lots of babies that will be able to be placed easily. More power to ya if you can place 8 litters of babies in one month, but to me it seems way excessive. Even if you didn't have another job, that's alot of time needed just to socialize them. What about the adult rats? Do they get any attention or socialization? Are they simply culled out when no longer 'useful'? When a breeder breeds that many litters and doesn't keep any out of the litters, it tells me that the breeder is not breeding to improve, they are breeding for money. The whole point of breeding is to improve and if you aren't keeping many rats out of your litters, how do you know if you are improving? You simply cannot tell how a rat is going to turn out as an adult if you place them at 5-6 weeks with pet adopters. Keeping only 1 baby out of 100 really reduces your odds of having a rat that will turn out to be a fantastic adult. Also, when a breeder breeds a 3 month old male 5-6 times, it tells me that the breeder has no patience and is not willing to wait 4 more months to see how that buck will mature. I'm sorry, but a buck can change after it's bred and a 3 month old buck, while sexually mature, is not physically or mentally mature. I hate to get on my soapbox as I don't have any problems with RRLM, just don't agree with her breeding methods.


Hi Robin.... Yes the adults at RRLM get attention. They eat better than I do. They eat better than she does. No, they are never killed off for no reason (culled). Some of the people you mentioned in a previous post have been known to advocate culling vehemently. Culling for those who donâ€™t know, involves killing babies in order to improve the size of the other babies. RRLM has and will never do this to babies or otherwise.
Next, what if a family came along and wanted to keep the baby you were interested in keeping, but you could breed to it in the future if it turned out nice enough? This comes up for me rather often. In some cases, I will place my pick of litter with a certain home and be able to breed him/her in the future.
Finally, a number of litters listed on RRLM are from other breeders, rescues, fostered... My litters are listed on her pages. 

Final thought...
Just because a color is not standardized through some club, does not mean it is not genetically possible. 
â€œPlatinum Fawn" may not be the standardized name, but the rat you are mentioning is a Fawn and Platinum. The fawn color is paler with a blue hue to it. As well, the coat of that particular rat is "Velvet" or plushy which is a tendency in Russian Blues. Saying â€œPlatinum Fawnâ€ is a bit better than either calling her a fawn or saying Russian Blue-Blue-Mink based Fawn (ddggmmrbrbAa) or however it would look genetically.

Dealing with the interesting Burmese genes. I have had the joy of discovering the phenotypes of a number of variations. Imagine my surprise when my Siamese bred to a Burmese produced Blue rats????
These turned out to be Blue Burmese. We have gotten: Russian Blue Burmese, Wheaten (Agouti) Burmese, Sable (homozygous) Burmese, Blue Burmese, Sable Blue, Russian Blue Wheaten, Russian Silver Burmese, Blue Wheaten, Mink Burmese, etc... It is a discovery process. We constantly are learning and new things are being learned. Though an interesting color and a genetic oddity (something we may be seeing out here in some particular rats), what have people said about the term â€œshadowâ€ or â€œmidnightâ€. Iâ€™m sure neither of these are standardized, but it doesnâ€™t mean they donâ€™t exist. 

Thanks for reading my rant. Deal with breeders who you respect and with whom you share the same values. That is the best advice there is. And, donâ€™t get discouraged if breeders tell you they wonâ€™t place breeding rats with you. I have recently had several people request to breed. Iâ€™m not placing for breeding in Cali right now. There are too many people and too many lies and too much garbage to do that. If interested, I suggest the person foster a litter to get the feel for it and to learn. In time, if they are still interested and have learned, then I will reconsider. If people want to breed and are new at it, they should raise some rescue litters first and get involved in helping those rats first.


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## lilspaz68

Thank you for clearing some of that up PCKG 

And I totally agree, rat breeder or rescue, doesn't necessarily make them good or ethical (as we all know, anyone can call themselves that), so you need to get to know the people involved, their goals, their care of the rats, etc.


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## Rodere

One thing I find interesting is that many people suggest doing rescue first so that you get the hang of things before breeding. However, one of the most common questions I run into is "You were a rescue and now you breed rats?! Shouldn't you be against breeding?"

It's funny that we advise people raise rescue litters and do rat rescue first, but many assume that by doing so they shouldn't want to breed. It was my rescuing that lead to my wanting to begin a responsible breeding program. It is heartbreaking to talk to your adopters and for them to loose their rats to bad health, pituitary tumors, etc. Yet the nature of doing rescue is that you adopt out rats to people of unknown lineage and unforeseeable health problems.


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## PCKGRat

Rodere said:


> One thing I find interesting is that many people suggest doing rescue first so that you get the hang of things before breeding. However, one of the most common questions I run into is "You were a rescue and now you breed rats?! Shouldn't you be against breeding?"
> 
> It's funny that we advise people raise rescue litters and do rat rescue first, but many assume that by doing so they shouldn't want to breed. It was my rescuing that lead to my wanting to begin a responsible breeding program. It is heartbreaking to talk to your adopters and for them to loose their rats to bad health, pituitary tumors, etc. Yet the nature of doing rescue is that you adopt out rats to people of unknown lineage and unforeseeable health problems.


It is strange to think that just because somebody rescues that they wouldn't be interested in breeding. It is like saying that somebody who adopts (Angelina Jolie) was wrong for having her own kid. 
Perhaps their is a balance that can be met between breeding and rescuing. I don't know. And, if rescuing is the ONLY thing being done, then who is working to improve the rats in general?


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## Sparker

Wow, I have no idea how I missed this, but I guess it is better late than never...



AlexzRose said:


> Really?? Man, I wish I worked at a vet's office. Are you a tech or something? I'm jealous.


Yes, I am an RVT. It is the best job I have ever had. I love it. I don't know if you saw it on the news, but our head Doctor just died... so it's been hard, but we're a family and we take care of each other. 



AlexzRose said:


> You guys arent hiring for any positions are you? lol. I'll even clean cages I dont care. hehehe.


We're not due to the above mentioned tragedy, BUT...

The CCSPCA at Hughes and Belmont, in Fresno, is hiring for a front desk person. I've actually worked there, it is hard but rewarding. They also offer full benefits. (559)233-7722.

Alta Animal Hospital needs a tech/receptionist. (559)298-6509.

Clovis Veterinary Hospital needs a receptionist. (559)299-2525.

Bullard Marks Veterinary Clinic also needs a receptionist. (559)432-0887.

(It helps to know people in the industry :wink: ) I Hope that is helpful, if you're even still looking.



AlexzRose said:


> Myspace?


  Yes, it is myspace.com/saraheparkermyspace


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## RatAttack_2007

Stephanie-

I am adopting two rats from a rattery in Sacramento, who are these back yard breeders, just so I know that I'm not getting one from them???

You can PM


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