# Selective, situational biting



## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

We have 3 lovely girl rats, and one rescued guy rat, but he's for another thread. The 3 girls came to us over the course of the winter and have formed a very nice 3 way mischief. Cassie, Rose, and Dusty. I can give more particulars if needed, but it is Dusty who has taken to biting:

1) ONLY when "defending" their big cage, and,

2) ONLY my wife. I can reach in, my son can reach in, and his girlfriend can reach in. ONLY my wife has this problem, and only when in that cage. 

Outside of that cage, my wife can play with Dusty just like all the others. Dusty is our largest girl, and packs a pretty nasty bite. But she's also a very sweet rat, and this is disturbing. I will NOT take her back or give her away; if worse comes to worse I'll make her my own rat, but this isn't what I want to happen.

Also, there are face bites on Rose, our butterscotch rat, and these show up very well on that light fur. They play and roughhouse hard, and then switch to grooming, so I never thought play could be damaging, and we aren't sure whether the cuts come from Dusty, or even gentle Cassie, or are even self-inflicted, since Rose is a hard scratcher. 

Any thoughts? I have been reading this forum and one other rat forum and I have learned a lot from all of you, about these wonderful little persons. This is one of my first posts, since this is upsetting to us. Thanks.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Are you sure the "bites" on the face are actually bites from another rat and not mites? The face and back of the neck are classic places for signs of mites to become apparent.

Some rats can be cage aggressive and fine once out of the cage, but it is strange it's only to one person. She doesn't happen to have hands smelling of food each time?

Is the male neutered and living with the females?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Any scabbing is usually mites not playfighting, so I would look into treating with Revolution or Ivermectin (store bought stuff is usually ineffective or can hurt/kill your rat )...soooo not worth it.

She's cage territorial it sounds like. Your wife should use gloves when doing anything in the cage or just be aware of where she is at all times. If she's relatively new, this behaviour can pass to nipping, then stopping altogether as she learns to trust. You might want to get your wife to try some in-cage socializing like yummy liquidy food in a spoon, so she licks it and realizes its from her but the scary hands don't come close.

Watch your wife when she reaches into the cage and see if she does anything different than you do...usually cage territorial rats do not pick and choose.


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks. We have thought about mites, and the possibility that Rose is digging at them too hard with her very sharp back toenails, thus self-inflicting. I don't know whether Cassie and Dusty would also have mites. I guess I need to check. 

Just for now, when we're asleep or at work, we have Rose in a smaller, separate cage, mostly for protection and our observation, but she gets to play and eat with her mischief every evening and morning while we're right there. 

The guy (Rascal, or Ratscal) is in the big cage he came with. We let them play together, under our close watch, as he is not neutered and we're not ready to see a batch of babies, cute as that must be! We would never let any babies go to a pet store or anywhere else we weren't sure about. Ratscal is big and sweet and shows little interest in mating; we don't know if he might even be too old for it. 

My wife tries everything. We do have gloves there for her to use. We all are very used to all our rats test-nibbling when we smell like food, but it's never harmful. I will try the spoon and treat yummies with them. I will also try the medicines suggested; sounds like it must come from a vet?

Thanks to both who have replied. You've given me a few new leads. And I will watch this thread for further posts. I intend to either make this work, or I will make Dusty my own rat---I never wanted this, but it's better than giving her up. She's really a very sweet and cool gray rat (looks more like the wild wharf rats that nobody likes, but I love her that way anyway.)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ahhh Rose may be angry or frightened being away from her friends, and you really will have a better chance at earning her trust if you put her back in with her girls...just be aware of where she is in the cage. I often use sweet friendly rats to "show the way", and it often works well. Its working with 3 little half-wild, half-domestic baby girls I have now. "

Rose may be the only one showing the overt signs of mites but you now must treat all 4. Revolution is recommended as the easiest, safest, and best treatment for mites. You can get it from your vet or you can order it online (there are a few places where you don't need a prescription).

AS for Ratscal playing with the girls...just don't. Rats are FAST at mating and you could blink and the deed is done. Some people check to make sure their girls aren't in heat, but some girls go into silent heat. Males can breed and are fertile often beyond 2 years of age. I rescue and see a lot of litters born to just these circumstances. There are so many homeless rats in the world, its really best not to chance even more.

Could you get Ratscal neutered possibly to live with his girls? The best colonies I have are intact or spayed girls and neutered boys. They are the most adjusted and happy groups overall


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, I realize I'm taking chances with Ratscal, and I have indeed heard how fast the mating can happen. I just want to make sure there isn't a risk with the needed surgery---we don't know how old he is, but we think he may be two. Who knows, though. He weighed 1 and 3/4 pounds when we brought him home and we have trimmed him down to almost an even pound, thus, he now scampers and climbs us just like the girls, so we just don't really know his age.

Should I, rather than risk his life to surgery, just keep him totally separate from the girls? Maybe get him a male cage mate (although I understand that can bring on aggression issues of another sort.)

They're all precious, even Dusty, equally, to me, I have no favorite. I'd rather they be healthy and long-lived.

Thanks to all for the consultation!


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

I had Spike neutered at 2 years old due to a testicular tumour and he was fine, apart from the post-neuter abscesses. Spike's thread (has some pics - so be warned if you're a bit squeamish lol): http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,13916.0.html 

I'd personally only neuter for health or severe aggression issues, based on the chance of post-neuter abscesses and that every operation carries a risk, but everyone has their own opinion on that. 

Many people suggest introducing two babies to an older lone rat so the older one isn't pestered, introductions of babies tend to be easier and so you still have a pair of rats if introductions aren't a success. Perhaps this would be an option for you?

I definitely wouldn't let Ratscal free range with the girls any more though.


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

Ratscal never got free range; all mixed gender socializing happened (note past tense!) on my shoulders, here at my computer, with the little mirror under the screen so I can keep watch on them! I never let mixed gender sleeve and collar diving occur! Still, I've stopped even that, because it sounds like even that is too risky.

We will treat all of them for mites, just because it should be done and because I'd like to rule it out.

As for Ratscal, I'd never neuter him for aggression. He's the docile, squishy lap rat I hear mentioned here so often. He doesn't "seem" to need company. But I'm thinking about it. One question: are baby male rats under any threat of being eaten by the older guy?


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Coolspruce said:


> He doesn't "seem" to need company. But I'm thinking about it. One question: are baby male rats under any threat of being eaten by the older guy?


Rats really do need company of their own kind. He may "seem" fine without company to you, but you would see the difference if he had friends. Baby males tend to be easy to introduce to adult males - they aren't yet old enough to be considered a threat. I successfully did an intro to two 18 mnth olds and a baby. I'm currently introing a baby to a 1 year old and a 28 month old.


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## homebody (Jan 26, 2009)

> Rose may be the only one showing the overt signs of mites but you now must treat all 4. Revolution is recommended as the easiest, safest, and best treatment for mites. You can get it from your vet or you can order it online (there are a few places where you don't need a prescription).


Can anyone suggest one or two of these sites where you don't need the prescription? I posted over on the health forum... have a rattie with some scabbing on different areas of her body, particularly her neck. Have been to the vet twice to get her combed for mites (once when we first got to town three months ago and once a couple of weeks ago when I noticed a lot of scabbing near her neck). The tests came back negative but I was recommended over there for maybe not take the test's word for it. I thought the wounds were primarily self-inflicted because her nails were just ridiculously sharp, but I don't know for sure. The marks lessened after the nail trim, but she has more this week. Mostly around the neck, but also a couple spots on her back/belly.

EDIT: Found one: http://www.petdrugs.com/dogs/produc...x+Allwormer-Small+dog+10-20+lbs+(5-10kg)/145/


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The way to test for mite is skin scrapes (because the mites live in the skin not in the fur like lice). But that is where you will get false positives, as its natural to have mites in the skin, all rats do. When there's an overload you get a mite infestation and need to treat all the rats.

I get Revolution from the AUS megastore myself
http://www.pets-megastore.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=165_160_178&products_id=430

I have a lot of rats here so ordered the bigger dog...but you only have 3, so can use the 1 tube of puppy/kitten.

I do surgeries based on health of the animal and the benefit it will do them.

He sounds healthy and active and should do just fine for the surgery. Stacey you had a bad result from your surgery but Spike is just prone to abscesses. A typical neuter abscess is easily dealt with at home. I have had many boys neutered with no complications at all, you just need a decent vet.

But if you like boys, and your boy is gentle and sweet (how IS he when you allowed him to visit the girls?) then I would advise getting 2 baby boys and introducing them to him.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Stacey you had a bad result from your surgery but Spike is just prone to abscesses. A typical neuter abscess is easily dealt with at home. I have had many boys neutered with no complications at all, you just need a decent vet.


The vets do seem decent. Spike's post-neuter abscesses were dealt with at home, but they were pretty bad. To stem bleeding during the surgery it was necessary to tie something (can't recall what as it was a while back) which is thought to be why it made abscesses more likely. I know of quite a few people that have had rats with post-neuter abscesses. I'm not sure if they were anything like Spike's though.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Stace87 said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > Stacey you had a bad result from your surgery but Spike is just prone to abscesses. A typical neuter abscess is easily dealt with at home. I have had many boys neutered with no complications at all, you just need a decent vet.
> ...


Don't forget that on forums especially, people are much more likely to post when things go wrong rather than right. Good neuters probably outweigh the bad ones many many times over. So seeing quite a few people who have had them go wrong isn't uncommon, but it isn't a fair statistic to apply to rat-neuters as a whole


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Ration1802 said:


> Don't forget that on forums especially, people are much more likely to post when things go wrong rather than right. Good neuters probably outweigh the bad ones many many times over. So seeing quite a few people who have had them go wrong isn't uncommon, but it isn't a fair statistic to apply to rat-neuters as a whole


I haven't actually saw that many neuter problems on forums. I was referring to those I know personally. No doubt many neuters do go smoothly though.


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

lilspaz68 said:


> The way to test for mite is skin scrapes (because the mites live in the skin not in the fur like lice). But that is where you will get false positives, as its natural to have mites in the skin, all rats do. When there's an overload you get a mite infestation and need to treat all the rats.
> 
> I get Revolution from the AUS megastore myself
> http://www.pets-megastore.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=165_160_178&products_id=430
> ...


I love both, and have just the 3 girls and one boy, our first ever 4 rats. If anyone had asked me in January whether I'd ever enjoy something like this, I'd have asked them if they were on drugs! Now I, and we, are total converts; we love them. I swear Cassie was sent to us, and she's the girl who started it all off in February. What an angel.

I have no gender preference that I know of, yet anyway. I understand there are some differences. 

Ratscal, or Rascal, the name that came with him from his previous humans, is to me the sweetest and most benign, pleasant, and soothing being I have ever met, of any species or gender! Well, Cassie is right up there. We all love Rascal, but he has been a perfect squishy lap rat for my wife (the one who Dusty seems to have cage problems with!) and he is sweet with the girls. He shows little interest in them except to be with them, as far as I can tell. I have him with me any time she isn't enjoying his soothing company, or when I don't have the 3 girls on my shoulder!

I can get him the baby boys, since I'd think he's not the type to hurt them, but I'll try looking somewhere else than the typical pet store, I guess. That's yet another issue from this. I have NO interest in feeding the **** feeder industry. Though it hurts not to save a couple more of the poor young rats there.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You have options at least. My best colonies are a bunch of intact girls and a neutered male or 2 

As for new baby boys if you decide to go that way, where do you live? There are rescues, oops litters on Craigslist/Kijiji, rehomings, etc. You just have to make sure you don't get any from a backyard breeder which ranks up there with the rat mills/pet store trade.


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

lilspaz68 said:


> You have options at least. My best colonies are a bunch of intact girls and a neutered male or 2
> 
> As for new baby boys if you decide to go that way, where do you live? There are rescues, oops litters on Craigslist/Kijiji, rehomings, etc. You just have to make sure you don't get any from a backyard breeder which ranks up there with the rat mills/pet store trade.


I live rather far up into Maine. We have 4 pet shops here. Two of them rank with the rat mills, and seem to thrive most on the feeder trade (which, as I have posted in the Sally thread, just horrifies me.) The other two shops have been found by my son and wife to be against this practice. How much they can control it, I don't know, but the Bangor Petco makes you fill out quite a form to help you assess whether a given pet is right for you. I imagine some feeders still slip through this way, but of course I don't know. 

I'm looking into the local SPCAs around here to establish a way for getting future pets. All our dogs and cats have been rescues, so it makes even more sense to get our pet rats that way.

Meanwhile, yesterday, Sally (wife, unaware of my investigations,) picked up a young boy at the Bangor Petco, who we have named Mac. He looks a lot like Rose, but is white in the lower parts. To our surprise, Mac's first meeting with Rascal, (far away from Rascal's cage) went with a couple soft lunging nips, nose to nose, from Rascal! So Mac is temporarily living in a smaller cage right next to Rascal's, and indeed they do spend a lot of time looking at each other, and, we imagine, communicating. 

I welcome all your good suggestions, but I know I also should look at what is already written here about introducing new rats. Mac is currently the size of our smallest girl, Cassie, but is supposed to grow to be larger than Rascal.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Well for the future...you might want to look into Mainely Rat Rescue (MRR). They have lots of fosters everywhere, and will sometimes work out transports.

http://www.mainelyratrescue.org/rattieblog2/

Let Mac settle a bit, and then try some nice neutral intro's in the bathtub (there's a good thread here on intro's I think).


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## Coolspruce (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks a million. Mac has indeed begun to settle, because out magic Cassie did something to fix her. I've always said Cassie is an angel. Mac was bruxing very sweetly on Sally's shoulder last evening, and he took his first green grape out of his own dish; always this is a wonderful sign to us. But we will try the bathtub method before putting the two guys in their cage. Last night, big Rascal started at Mac in the adjacent temporary cage, for a very long time. I like to think it was friendly.

And THANKS for the Mainelyratrescue link! A lot of wonderful goings on there.


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