# Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE READ



## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

Hi guys!

I just read on a different post that Kaytee rat food has cancer causing agents, and wonder if this true or speculation only. 

It looks like it may be true, provided is a link to proof of the statement. I think it would be extremely important to read this information. 

Also, you will find below arguments for purchasing Harlan Teklad blocks instead of "pet store" food. 

*They are very inexpensive
*They are natural and vegetarian
*They are often found at rat rescues and humane societies
*They are easy to purchase online if you have no luck with the rescues, just google "Harlan Teklad"
*The shipping is quite inexpensive and the food itself is very inexpensive

From what I can tell if your ratties are up to 8 months old purchase "2018"
If your ratties are 8 months or older purchase "2014"

Thanks for reading this and to Forensic for all the helpful advice!!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

http://www.parrothouse.com/ethox.html

Ethoxyquin is a perservative in Kaytee Foods.

_Chronic feeding studies in rats of 0.2 % of ethoxyquin in the diet caused transient depression in growth rate, At necropsy, damage to kidneys, liver and thyroid gland were seen in many of the male rats but not in the females. In another study, diets containing 0.5 % ethoxyquin fed to rats for up to 18 months, produced renal lesions in all of the study animals. Continuous administration to rats fed a diet of 0.2 % ethoxyquin, caused tumors in some of the animals according to one study. ]_


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

Thank you lilspaz!!

I do notice however that the information provided in link given does not provide any reference as to the actual study. 

Is this the only place where we are basing our claims? Often in studies when they are speaking of rats, they are referring to lab rats, which are used for the sole purpose of the study and are therefore given extreme amounts of the chemical in question. 

I wonder if there has been any significant evidence that this brand of food has actually caused such problems on a real world level. 

I know that Stephanie had said something about cancer, however I have yet to be able to substantiate that claim. 

Any other info would be wonderful.

Thanks again!


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## Sky14 (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: Kaytee*

I would also like some "real world" evidence because I feed my girls Kaytee sometimes.



lilspaz68 said:


> _Chronic feeding studies in rats of 0.2% of ethoxyquin in the diet caused transient depression in growth rate,_


I've never, NEVER had one of my girls growth stunted when feeding Kaytee to them as the primary food.


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## mopydream44 (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

I'm not sure which thread it was on but I posted the following link:

http://www.kaytee.com/ask_the_experts/antioxidants_and_preservatives/

That is from Kaytee's website, and they say that certain preservatives can cause cancer at "extreme" levels; however, even if they aren't getting an extreme amount I would personally avoid using a product with a known carcinogen. 

Also if you are not concerned about the carcingoens you might consider using another product based on the nutrition information

FORTI DIET (rat and mouse)

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.)...........21.0%
Crude Fat (min.)..................4.5%
Crude Fiber (max.)...............7.0%
Moisture (max.)..................12.0%

That info comes directly from the Kaytee website. The protein is a bit too high for the recommended % 

I also think Kaytee is overpriced  but I think that with a lot of things I guess


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

With so many better foods out there nutrition and quality wise that have zero possible cancer causing preservatives, why take a chance with crap low quality food just because the effects of ethoxyquin is not too clear?

Sky: You have a whole thread demonstrating how horrible that food is nutrition wise by how your girls coat is affected and overly buck greased. I wouldn't be still using that food if I were you :/

It's not hard to switch to a high quality low protein dog food and probably cheaper too. Harlan Teklad blocks are really inexpensive as well and in this day of age it's kind of primitive to be against ordering things online... even though I come across it all too regularly. That food is only $1/pound making shipping not too bad. to add on top of that. Especially when the shipping is the same to up to 15lbs of food.

Also, seed mixes are very bad for rats. It's been said numerous times. The seeds are too high in protein and fat. Dry corn carries mold. I think it even contains alph alpha which is indigestible to rats. On top of all of that junk food they put in an preservative I think is forbidden to use on humans anymore. If it still is legal to use that preservative, it's regulated to a MUCH higher extent then any pet food has to regulate it.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

Please understand that I'm in no way DEFENDING Kaytee, I'm simply a scientist and refuse to go by rumors alone, and always demand proof of claims. 

Now, I would be very open to using any food, I just happened to purchase Kaytee, as it was the most expensive one on the shelf and thinking it was probably the best, and therefore I decided that there was a high likelihood that others would / have done the same and I created this thread to PROTECT them and find real answers. 

So, in the vein of being helpful and no condescending - what are Harlan Teklad blocks? Do you feed your rat one "block" per day or are they like pellets that go into the dish? Are they substantial on their own or do they go along with a complicated list of other foods that MUST be feed to the rats? 

More information on the best food would be most useful rather than defensiveness and finger pointing. I'm here to learn!! 

Thanks!!


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*



rattikins said:


> So, in the vein of being helpful and no condescending - what are Harlan Teklad blocks? Do you feed your rat one "block" per day or are they like pellets that go into the dish? Are they substantial on their own or do they go along with a complicated list of other foods that MUST be feed to the rats?
> 
> More information on the best food would be most useful rather than defensiveness and finger pointing. I'm here to learn!!
> 
> Thanks!!


Usually with HT blocks, a rat will eat a number of them a day, I forget what the actual number is, though. They're theoretically fine on their own, but many people like to pair them with grains or such to give the ratties variety.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

Excellent! Thank you for the awesome advice forensic! We're getting somewhere very useful to many people now!

Now, I went to their website and there are MANY options to choose from. 

I think it would be so great if you could maybe give us an item number and category, amount, etc. for an ideal purchase. 

Thanks again!


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

The HT website, you mean?

Personally, I feed the 2014, but I know some people feed the 2016. Anything with higher protein is often given to young rats or mothers. But you can get it in small orders through various rescues and shops online...


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee*

Forensic, 

Thank you again! 

I just placed my order for the 2018 since my ratties are only about 4 1/2 months. Will buy the 2014 once they are 8 months old. 

Thanks again for all the information. It was very helpful!


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## Sky14 (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: Kaytee*



Poppyseed said:


> Sky: You have a whole thread demonstrating how horrible that food is nutrition wise by how your girls coat is affected and overly buck greased. I wouldn't be still using that food if I were you :/


The buck grease was because she hadn't had a bath for 2 months and my mom mixed alot of peanuts in when I wasn't looking and she feeds them god knows what when I'm not around.....

And for some reason it's only Eskyda that gets all "greased up" none of the others get buck grease to the point that it's noticable. :? Do genetics have any part in buck grease?

Oh and I'm glad you got the info you wanted rattikins.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

Yes, I think this has turned into a rather helpful thread, so thank you to all!!!


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## danetix (Jun 30, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

Where do you buy your HT food from?


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

Here is where you can buy it

http://www.kimsarkrescue.org/content/view/35

What I wonder about HT is why they did not put meat products in it.


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*



twilight said:


> What I wonder about HT is why they did not put meat products in it.


I've been wondering this, too!


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

I'm personally glad they don't ^^;; Meat is high in protein and I don't think rats are huge meat eaters in the wild anyway. Yeah they eat meat occasionally when available but not all THAT often I would imagine.


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

You wan't a food that is as close as you can to their natural diet though. They are omnivorous (as I'm sure we all know), meaning they are partcially predatory and have a requirement for nutrients that come from animals. Which is why "The Rat Lady" Debbie has meat in her rats diet.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Kaytee (or Pet store food) vs. Harlan Teklad - PLEASE RE*

Perhaps add some meat product would make it more perishable?


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