# Good breeders in MA area?



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Since I just moved to MA I want to get in contact with a good reputable breeder in the area. I don't know if I am getting breeder rats anytime soon (I was planning to get my next rats from Maine rat rescue) but I like to know who in the area is Good and who is Not Good. I can't really find anyone. Any suggestions? Thanks.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I do not know a ton of breeders in that area. 

You could take a road trip to me lol!

I do know of a really good breeder in that area but for the life of me I can't remember who lol I'll have to think on it. 
I know most breeders by their actual name and always forget what their rattery name is and who is in what state lol

I have never gotten rats from them personally but-

https://www.facebook.com/eastcoastrattery/
Is good. I like her  She has also had her rats tested for seoul & was active in posting & getting tested. So that is good.

https://www.facebook.com/squishyratrattery/


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## ratje (Feb 4, 2017)

moonkissed said:


> I do know of a really good breeder in that area but for the life of me I can't remember who lol I'll have to think on it.


Could this be the rattery? .....I think she's in Chicopee, Mass.
Her name is Anya Bogdanovich.

http://the-firefly-rattery.webs.com/Index.html

https://www.facebook.com/The.Firefl...412584558490/1253246604741744/?type=3&theater


I had a brief correspondence with her when looking for a single male rat to buddy with my Mowgli after his bud Lou died. I didn't end up getting anything from her, but she was extremely helpful, and advised me to get a younger pair to introduce to my Mowgli boy. She gave me a very detailed explanation as to why it would be best to get a pair.


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## AkCrimson (Dec 2, 2013)

Where in MA? I'm in NE Mass. 50 shades of Rats (i know i know) https://www.facebook.com/groups/1129521170419448/

Also, Mainely Rat Rescue is a really really great organization, they have fosters all over New England. I definitely recommend contacting them!


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm fine with driving about 3 hours (one-way, so like 6 hours total) for rats so it can be outside of MA. I'm an hour west of Boston, like central MA. Between everything you guys have given me I have a lot more options now, thanks!


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

ratje said:


> Could this be the rattery? .....I think she's in Chicopee, Mass.
> Her name is Anya Bogdanovich.
> 
> http://the-firefly-rattery.webs.com/Index.html
> ...


I personally do not know her. I have read some negative things about her, nothing serious but many of the posts I have seen by her seemed very immature. Her website feels that way too. I would honestly think she was a teenager? I don't want to be rude, some young people can be excellent breeders. It just does not feel very professional. 
Alot of things just feel inexperienced, like perhaps she should learn a bit more. But she seems to be trying. 

She claims that like 50% of females will get tumors and that it is just a thing you have to expect and I greatly disagree with that. And it worries me if she sees many tumors.
She sells her babies at 5 weeks which I don't really like to see personally. 
She uses tanks which I disagree with personally.
She doesn't say what age she breeds her does but mentions a comment about breeding above 3 months which is worrisome. 
She says you can use kiln dried aspen... lol



> Where in MA? I'm in NE Mass. 50 shades of Rats (i know i know) https://www.facebook.com/groups/1129521170419448/


I would strongly suggest NOT working with that breeder  She made a very bad name for herself across several groups by breeding rats that she bought as pets saying she would not breed, being dishonest, threatening to feed off a rat she bought and no longer wanted if the breeder didn't refund her... I also talked to her a bit and felt she was a bit inexperienced and wasn't really breeding responsibly or understanding genetics at the time. After this she changed her name on facebook as well as her rattery name it seems.... I do not feel she is very ethical.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I really like that east coast rattery, they look great. I'm glad to know which ones aren't so good, since I've met with breeders who seemed good until I met with them...


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## AkCrimson (Dec 2, 2013)

Good to know moonkissed, glad you chimed in! Sorry if I recommended someone crummy! 

But again, I'd check out Mainely rat rescue! They are just great and they get a lot of rats


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

AkCrimson said:


> Good to know moonkissed, glad you chimed in! Sorry if I recommended someone crummy!
> 
> But again, I'd check out Mainely rat rescue! They are just great and they get a lot of rats


No worries. Sadly people present themselves one way and then behave another. So it is easy to not know. She went so far to change her name, so she is pretty good at giving a good false impression!

I just recently had another breeder message me and start chatting with me & even friended me on facebook. They seemed fine at first but then I realized they were not being very responsible and I decided I did not want to associate with them because of that. This upset them and they actually threatened me! lol like people are nuts out there! It is hard to know who someone really is at first!


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Yeah I'm still planning on the rescue. I looked yesterday and it seems like almost all their rats were adopted out! They have a great special sale this month due to rat day so maybe that's it. I want boys in the future so it'll be awhile before I let myself get any more, since I have 5 girls. Not sure if I'll be strong enough.


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## ratje (Feb 4, 2017)

moonkissed said:


> I personally do not know her. I have read some negative things about her, nothing serious but many of the posts I have seen by her seemed very immature. Her website feels that way too. I would honestly think she was a teenager? I don't want to be rude, some young people can be excellent breeders. It just does not feel very professional.
> Alot of things just feel inexperienced, like perhaps she should learn a bit more. But she seems to be trying.
> 
> She claims that like 50% of females will get tumors and that it is just a thing you have to expect and I greatly disagree with that. And it worries me if she sees many tumors.
> ...


Thanks for that feedback about the Firefly Rattery, moonkissed. That was an eyeopener and am glad you posted this info.


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

moonkissed,

I think you may be mistaken as to who I am. I haven't looked at this forum in several years. (I am only on now because a client told me about this thread.) I don't recall my old account (nothing came up for my email) but I know I haven't responded to many threads. (Admittedly I do not remember my old user name so I can't be sure of what I commented on.) I tend to stay out of things because I do not need unnecessary stress. I focus on my rats and their offspring. So I'm not sure who's posts you think are mine. Maybe you can PM me some screen shots so I can clear up the confusion? 



In either case I would appreciate if you could send me a message so we can discuss why you think my website comes off as a teenager's website. I am always looking to improve my website. (I admit I am offended by that comment. I have put a lot of time and effort into my website. I tried to make it colorful and inviting. I know it is not perfect but I really think calling it "immature" is a bit much.) I wrote the HTML code myself, I didn't use a template and I have been criticized for it. But design is a personal choice and not a reflection on my knowledge or experience. As far as I know I am one of the only breeders around who has such an extensive website. I have worked very hard to compile a fact page. My transparency has been the cause of misunderstandings before.



You took the tumor comment from a larger paragraph. I said, "Females are prone to mammary tumors. Unfortunately when rats were domesticated they were bred to have tumors so they could be experimented on. It's in their genes. It typically tends to be a 50% chance of them getting mammary tumors. Diet can increase these chances." So I never said to expect it; I was just warning people about the medical issue. I'm am sorry my words came off that way. I just try to be as up front as possible because I have had adopters assume that my rats will be 100% tumor free and even though I would love to have that claim it is untrue and I can not guarantee that rats from my rattery will be tumor free. I do not want to mislead anyone. I have read many things stating that the mammary tumor rate on average is about 50% of females. I have spoken with other breeders who have a much higher rate. I do not always get updates from clients so I can not accurately calculate my tumor rate. I can only keep my website updated with the health of all the rats I have kept. (I have the policy that if a female gets a tumor all you have to do is show me photographic proof and I will offer you a baby for free. I do this as an incentive to keep me informed of the rats' health. I can only make adjustments to my lines when I'm informed. I am the only breeder that I know of who does this. I have been told I am crazy for doing this because many things effect whether or not a female gets a mammary tumor and not just genetics.) You said you do not agree with that statistic of 50%. Have you had a more positive experience? I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is something I can do.



My babies are 5 to 6 weeks old when I adopt them out. Sometimes a little older. I keep them for as long as I feel they need to stay. I know each breeder is different. I feel confident in my choice of when to adopt them out. 



I only have Moms and small babies in aquariums. I've had a baby's foot get injured before so now I'm paranoid. (I'd be devastated if something happened while I wasn't home and the baby suffered or broke a bone.) I do not like to put the babies into wire cages until 4 weeks old. I do not adopt to anyone who has an aquarium as a cage. (I just reviewed my fact page and I can see how my ramblings on there can be misleading. (I do over explain, as I am sure you noticed with this reply.) I will edit that now to make sure it does not give the impression that aquariums are suitable cages. I do state that I will not adopt to people who use them.)



You're right. I do not say what age I breed my females at. But if you look at the past litters page then find that female's profile you can see her birthday. (I didn't think I needed to list her age when I document the pairings. I have been told I already have too much information public.) In the far past I bred rats when they were younger. I have long since learned new things. Most are 8 months and older. (I have seen so many opinions on breeding age. I have been accused of breeding too young and breeding too old. All I can do is take everything into consideration and do what I feel is best for my rats based on them as individuals.)



You took the "3 months breeding age" way out of context. I said, "Most pet stores do not separate the sexes so the rats are free to breed. This means inbreeding and becoming pregnant at an age that can be devastating to the female rat. (As female rats should never be breed before 3 months of age (as recommended by rat resource) at the very earliest. And they should be of healthy size and weight.) So you are chancing getting a pregnant rat. Rats can reproduce as early as 5 weeks old." This was said to show how bad pet stores are that do no separate genders. It was not an indication of the age that I breed my females. I said it was the earliest they could safely breed. I never recommended it. Some things on my website have not been updated or reworded in many years because I did not think they needed to be. I am more than happy to receive feedback about how I can make my website better.



I'm not sure why kiln dried aspen is funny. I've had brands of aspen that smelt heavily like wood oils and others that did not. The ones with relatively no scent advertised that they were "kiln dried". If that was just an advertising ploy then I guess they got me.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

hi. I definitely did not mean any offense. Someone asked and I gave my opinion without knowing you, as I said. Without knowing or working with someone, you can only give a small window of an opinion on who they are. 

It was not the design, that can be definitely personal. What I like someone else may not. I personally would suggest white backgrounds, condensing the text to a box in the middle of the page, black text, Organizing things so there is not lots of blocks of text. But none of that speaks to you as a breeder. And trust me I have seen some god awful sites, I think yours is very nice.

Some of the things you say make it seem very unsure of yourself or like you were just copying what you read elsewhere instead of your own words. And there is some feeling of just not very professional. IDK I can't really explain why I get that tone. Maybe just cleaning everything up and editing may help. 
But I wouldn't take offense to that. I actually was told some of my website felt unprofessional because I use alot of words like idk, imo, lol 
So to each their own there! If you are happy with your site that is what matters!

I absolutely love my website and yet I find mistakes or decide I hate a part all the time and am constantly updating it. I am sure its not everyone's cup of tea. 
I would totally suggest using wix though. I should get paid on how much I recommend that website lol. Iknow how to make websites myself but wix is just so easy and amazing to use. Plus it has lots of fun stuff, like i can add all my adopters contact info and send out mass emails to them easily or send invoices for deposits. 


I haven't had any tumors in my rats so far *knock on wood* Tumors are not something anyone should expect. I could go on and on about it lol But basically tumors can be genetic. There is an amazing studies on it as rats were used to study human breast cancer because it is similar. The studies showed that there are genes that are more prone and less prone. So as we know with people breast cancer can run in families. But just because they are prone to it doesn't mean for sure they will get a tumor it just means they are more at risk.

Not breeding any lines that develop tumors is a good way to make sure there are less risk of them being prone to it in your lines. But beyond that the biggest prevention is good care. A very healthy diet, stay away from known carcinogens, healthy weight is very important, overall health and care. It could be possible because of that, where a breeder who takes really good care of their rats won't see tumors but adopters could if they don't follow the same care. So it is not always so easy to see. And ofcourse with new lines someone may not yet know or have experience with the history yet.


It is your choice when you sell babies. I disagree with selling that young. 


Me hating tanks is my own opinion as I said. Tanks are not good. Babies/moms does not make it safe. So it does bother me. Switch to bins! You will be very happy. Bins are soooo much better. They allow proper ventilation. They weigh like nothing so they are super easy to clean, move, stack. You can attach hammocks, etc... and they are inexpensive to make. In all the breeder groups, someone switches to bins and then has to post on how much they love them lol. I can give u a link to a guide on how to make them if you would like!


I said in my comment how I did not see anything about the age but that I only felt the comment was worrisome. IDK why posting too much info would be a bad thing? IMO I like open breeders. 
4 months old is the earliest. I breed my rats 5-6 months old and retire generally around 10 months. It also depends on weight and overall form/maturity. Over 250g though I prefer to see closer to 300g.
There are differing opinions but that is pretty common.

Yes aspen is safe as is. Pine should be kiln dried.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I hope my thread didn't hurt feelings, I feel embarrassed that someone's client mentioned it so I apologize. I just have had too many bad experiences with undesirable breeders in the past and I know that moonkissed especially knows a lot of breeders personally. So again sorry if any feelings were hurt due to my thread.


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

Hello moonkissed,


I can't really do much about all the text on the fact page. It's supposed to be text and unfortunately I am long winded despite trying not to be. : / All I could do was make the navigation menu at the top and a link to bring you back to that menu after each section. Some things were copy and pasted, like the info from the CDC, but they were cited. Some things I just can't write better so I use them with proper citation. But most things are in my own words. (Some sections have not been updated in many years but I can devote some time to that today.) However, I am very confident in what I write on my website. (Some things I feel uncomfortable writing ( I would rather avoid confrontation) so they are worded to the best of my ability to come off nicely. It's always stressful to receive an email that is geared at arguing with me about my policies and trying to get their way. However I never bend on my beliefs or risk the safety of my rats.)


Do you mostly work with dwarf rats? I researched and I have spoken to breeders about dwarf rats. I find it amazing that they have no incidents of tumors. That is just awesome. I have contemplated breeding dwarfs but I love the big rats so I just make adjustments to my lines to have my females be as tumor free as possible with standard rats. (With so may factors playing into whether or not a female rat gets mammary tumors it's really hard to determine the cause. I take everything into account to make an informed decision. I have only had a handful of clients tell me that their female has developed a tumor. I am grateful for that. I have also only had a handful of females develop tumors over the last five years. I am very happy with the progression of my lines. And I am ecstatic about the temperament of the babies. My lines have come a long way since I started 12 years ago. It is a constant learning situation and I always want to do my best for my rats and their offspring. )


They're not always 5 weeks. : ) I do it when I feel they are ready. Some Moms are not very attentive, some litters are very outgoing, and some grow extremely fast. It's all decided on an individual litter basis. 5 weeks is not my exact set age for adoption. 


Bin nurseries are nice. But unfortunately most of my females are avid chewers. (You should see my female DCN! I've had to replace the shelves two times and the bin on the bottom once. My Father is very handy and he put a metal shield around the bin to prevent chewing. I am hoping to persuade him to make metal shelves because I need to buy a third set soon. They've also ruined several middle sized wire cage bottoms. No matter how many chews, toys etc. I put in the shelves are the preferred chew items.) I've tried bins; I put the “windows” up higher so tiny babies couldn't reach them and I didn't have to worry about injuries. They were much easier to bring to the tub and wash. And I loved the fact that I could hang things. They did not last long and kept needing repairs. My females were having a field day chewing on the indents and whatever else they could get their teeth on. I was very concerned that I would lose a Mom or babies so I decided to discontinue the use and went back to the aquariums. I just make sure to clean them at least every other day (every day when babies get bigger) and I put a lot of ground entertainment in. Plus they are out a lot to get more stimulation. I just have to do what works for my rats and make sure they are happy and safe. I greatly appreciate the suggestion though. 


I'm definitely not arguing about what age to breed females. The sentence was in a a paragraph explaining why pet stores were bad places for rats. Like I said, most of mine are 8 months old so 3 or 4 months isn't relevant to my breeding plan. (I really hope that someone reading my page warning about pet stores does not think I am teaching about breeding.) I have seen so many opinions on breeding age. (I used to breed at 5 to 6 months old (when a good weight) but I was viciously attacked years ago by other rat owners and breeders. So I took their advice and waited until the females were older. I have not noticed any difference. Now I base my breeding age solely on the female. I've also been criticized for breeding over a year (but I see breeders who do not start until the female is a year old). So, it seems there is no perfect age and one must listen to their rats and do what is best for them. Especially since I am the one who sees them every day and monitors them.)


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

Hello Coffeebean,


Yes, my feelings were hurt at being called a teenager. I felt it was a very unfair assessment but you had no control over that. (Especially since she said it was also based on my posts here and I have no posts. That made me feel it was misdirected.) 


Ratje is not my client. He just emailed me about getting a single male to pair with his older male who lost a cage mate. I do not have any males available and I explained why always adopting new rats in pairs is best. (I rarely adopt out single rats.) That was the extent of our interaction. (I am offended that because moonkissed shared her opinion on some things that he replied with a comment that made it seem like I am a bad breeder. Every breeder does things differently. Different does not mean bad. Each breeder has a unique situation and should do what is best for them and their rats.)


I definitely understand why you made the thread looking for a good breeder. (I do hope you find one.) I too have experienced many poor breeders. Most have since faded out and no longer breed. Some are still around but I feel it is not my place to say things about them because I'd only be basing it on what I see online and not what I have witnessed in person. (Obviously if they display blatant irresponsibility or negligence it is safe to make an assumption.) I think to truly judge a breeder you should meet with them and see (at least) photographs of their cages and rats. Some people are not good with words and come off as immature when in reality they are experienced. Everyone is human and owning a rattery is a passion not business. So some breeders may not be as professional as others.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> Do you mostly work with dwarf rats?


No. Most of mine are standard. I love dwarfs though and will probably have mostly dwarfs in the future. I am a bit obsessed with them lol
I wouldn't say it is impossible for dwarfs to get tumors but they have much much lower risk.

I am a bit anal about diet. I research alot and feed very good healthy foods and strive for healthy weights. I also make sure they get limited light as that helps as well. Getting my lines from great breeders and a dose of luck lol

Way back with my very first pet rats I ever got. One of them developed a tumor. She was a pet store rat and I fed her harlan/suebees mix ugh lol I vowed I enver wanted to experience that again. And so far I have never seen any tumors since. Even in my pet only. I have many new lines so *fingers crossed* but I do feel that tumors are for the most part avoidable with just proper care/good breeding.



> They're not always 5 weeks. : ) I do it when I feel they are ready. Some Moms are not very attentive, some litters are very outgoing, and some grow extremely fast. It's all decided on an individual litter basis. 5 weeks is not my exact set age for adoption.


There is differing opinions. I don't think it is good to do. I strongly like to see babies older when they go. I don't even separate my babies from mom until 5 weeks or so. Then the boys go in with older boys so they can continue to learn really good rat socialization skills. I used to sell at 6 weeks but since talking with other breeders have decided to wait till sell until 7-8 weeks old, my dwarfs don't go until after 12 weeks. They are just still such babies at that age and it is still a key developmental age where they are learning how to socialize and be a rat. And more so if the new home doesn't have other rats from them to learn from.

You should totally join this facebook group for breeders. It is my favorite group, super active and such a warm community feel. I seriously love it. https://www.facebook.com/groups/770324953070625/



> Bin nurseries are nice. But unfortunately most of my females are avid chewers.


I don't really have a chewer issue myself. I know many other breeders will cull chewers because they find it unacceptable. 
Not all bins are created the same though. it is super important to get one with flat sides and no edges/lips. If it has anything like that they can chew. And you have to put the wire on the inside of the bin. 
if you do that and have flat sides there is little risk that they can chew. I've never had rats escape.

It can just be a matter of opinion. It just worries me about little growing lungs and the risks and how it may play a role in their health. So I really hate to see it.


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## Okeedoke22 (Dec 31, 2016)

I think both parties handled this situation pretty awesome. Glad people can agree to disagree but still be civil.

Moonkissed - no keep your standards going strong. Haha. I know you said mostly dwarf. So I should be good when I want to get big boys or girls from you. I really want once upon a mischief rats. Hopefully sinner rather then later. 7 hour drive will be worth it. I think dwarf rats are so cute but I like the idea of bigger rats. Then again when I seen that video of you playing with your new little baby I fell in love. I wish I had friends with rats. More specifically females because I'm spurious to see them in action. My boys are lazy. Haha. 


Does that Facebook breeding group only accept breeders? I have no interest in breeding but I do want to learn as much as I can. Plus I love my rat group unfortunately I read a lot and they can't keep up with me. Lol. I really like the idea of babies staying with adults a little longer. 7-8 weeks seems reasonable. So much to learn in so little time.


Coffebean . Good Luck in Massachusetts. Such an amazing place. Really have loved my visits there.


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

moonkissed,

I had fed a food recommended by my vet (Kaytee lab blocks) and since switching foods I have noticed a great improvement in the health of my lines. (I learned long ago that that food wasn't very good and it even increases the chances of tumors. That's why I don't just take the advice of one person / source. Because who would think a vet (who sees rats regularly) would be wrong?) And of course lab blocks are not the only thing I feed. My husband keeps an organic garden so the summer is plentiful in fresh vegetables. I don't notice them having a preference for fresh or frozen though. 

My male babies are separated from Mom at 5 weeks old as well. (If they are smaller and still nursing I leave them with Mom longer.) Whether they stay a few more days, another week, or longer depends on the individual litter. (I was greatly criticized by multiple breeders for leaving the males with the females until 5 weeks old. They separated at 4 weeks, sometimes earlier, because they were insistent that all the females would become pregnant. (I have never had that happen nor have I seen baby boys even start displaying mating behavior when still with the Mom.) So each breeder has their own beliefs and reasons for why they do what they do. Every line is unique. It doesn't make them right or wrong.)

I NEVER put my babies in with my adults. (I do not often have all ages of males so I do not have ones close in age to my babies.) There is too big of a size difference. Baby rats really shouldn't be put with adults until they are 12 weeks or older. (I wait until they are older and bigger.) There is just too much of a risk of them getting hurt. (Small scuffles, power grooming, pecking order sort outs, wrestling even, nothing that is aggressive just every day rat stuff can be too much for such a small rat and they can get seriously injured. To me it's not worth the risk.) The idea of adding 5 week old babies to adult cages is not something I will ever do. It's terrifying. (I make sure that people adopting new babies to go with their older rats know about quarantine, introducing, and keeping them in separate cages until the babies are old enough. I have had bad experiences putting young babies in with adults (Not all the adults were from my lines) and I have heard horror stories.) 
I have not noticed a difference in the temperament or behavior of the female babies that I keep from my litters (who live with Mom) and 5 to 6 week old babies (male and female) that I adopt. I personally like to adopt my babies out when I feel they are ready because it is a crucial bonding time and I want them to form a strong bond with their owner. I do not want them to be in love with me and then become depressed when rehomed and have to start all over again. Each breeder does things differently and for different reasons. Not everyone is going to agree and that's ok. We each have had our own experiences and we each have our reasons for doing what we do. Being slightly different in times doesn't make it wrong.

I tried the heavy duty expensive bins (lots of indents) and the cheaper clear ones with no indents. I do put the wire screen on the inside. To me, since I am an extreme worrier, it's not worth the risk of having a rat escape. Especially since I have cats and I'd be devastated if something happened. (My rat cages are not in a closed off room. They are in a "public" area to expose them to every day activity and noises.) It is often hard to tell which female is causing the damage to the DCN so I do not always know if a Mom is a chewer or not. When she is alone I can obviously tell if it was her who chewed. Because I do not always know if a female is a chewer it's also not worth the risk of using a bin. Especially since I am very consistent with cleaning the cages. If anything, I over clean (I don't think there is such a thing). My rattery care is definitely a full time job but I wouldn't have it any other way. I have never had an issue with respiratory problems. The aquarium is a temporary housing situation. Everything has pros and cons. You just have to find what works best for the individual. If someone is not going to be devoted to cleaning them throughly then it's not a good option for them.

I find it a bit harsh and extreme to euthanize a rat because they are a chewer. I do not cull. I merely stop breeding that line and let those rats live out their lives with me. As I keep saying though, every breeder is different and does what works best for them. I do not find it to be my place to criticize someone's techniques. I may ask about them to see if it's better for me but I don't hold it against the breeder if I do not agree with it.

I find it harsh and extreme because when considering the rat (or line) as a whole that could be the only issue. To me, if they're healthy and friendly it's a small inconvenience. Another reason why I do not cull for chewing is because I have heard some theories about chewing being a learned behavior. Of course rats chew, it's their nature. But it seems they chew more when in with others who chew. Rarely do my babies exhibit signs of being chewers. (Ones that do are not always from mothers who do. Ones who don't aren't always from mothers who don't.) I keep my babies seperated from my adults until they are 4 to 5 months old. In that time they do not chew the cage. Some chew lightly on the shelf edges but not regularly. I have had maybe three clients report that the rats chewed the cage bottom. So I do believe that chewing is more of a learned behavior and me keeping chewers is not significantly effecting my over all ideal rat. It just means I can not confidently use nursery bins. I do notice that when a female who chewed passes away the chewing of the DCN shelves greatly decreases. (The shelves are a softer plastic than everything else in the cage so maybe they just like the feel. (They are just like the bin plastic.) The previous cage I had them in had hard plastic shelves. They didn't chew those. Too bad I can't use those shelves in the DCN. I've had the same igloos, other harder plastic hides, and large plumbing pipes (they do not get chewed on at all) for many years and they are mildly chewed on. It's just something about the bins and the DCN shelves. So I suppose the correct wording would be that many of my females are avid soft plastic chewers. I definitely do not want to cull my otherwise great females for that reason.)


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## Nieve5552 (May 20, 2014)

I've never bred rats or planned to, I've only been researching about rats online and never asked vets about rat feed... but I found out pretty early on that any kind of 'rat feed' that Kaytee makes are pretty **** bad!! Even the words 'Kaytee lab blocks' make me cringe. 

Also I belive 'culling' in breeder world doesnt always mean 'killing'. A lot of the time its just 'culling' from the breeding line, which means not breeding again. It could just mean reproductive retirement or selling to the public and not keeping their genes in the breeding line. 

And I dont think moonkissed would put her baby rats in with adults unless it was always safe to do so. From what I've read here for the past couple of years or so, her rats have great temperaments. Maybe the difference in temperament is why theres such a discrepancy with her experience of introducing baby rats to adults and your experience of it? I would think that behavioural difference in rats differ hugely between different breeders' animals, depending on the genes of the founding animals and the breeding selection criteria / 'culling' process during the generations of breeding


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## Okeedoke22 (Dec 31, 2016)

The FireFly Rattery- I think there is a difference in hard cull and soft cull. Not sure I'm using proper terminology. I don't know if breeders hard cull rats for chewing but I would have to agree that is very harsh. Soft cull (meaning stop breeding that rats line) seems not harsh at all. They still get a good life as a retired breeder. I will say I much rather have a non chewer as I buy all my hammocks since I'm not good at sewing or even cutting fabric. Lol. Chewers could get expensive for me but I would still love and spoil them. 

It's great to always listen to many sources. In the end you have to do what you are comfortable with. It sounds like you do what's best for your mischief. Great job.


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

Nieve5552,


I don't see why when gathering information asking a vet about proper care is a bad thing. Like I said, who would think a vet would give you wrong information? Especially if they say they know about rats. The breeder I was first mentored with used it. (They did a lot of things I discovered that were not the best.) Everyone starts some where. I believe what they did before doesn't matter as much as how much they have learned and strive to improve. I haven't fed Forti Diet lab blocks (by Kaytee, not called Kaytee Lab Blocks, sorry I said that.) for around 7 years or more I believe. I stopped before I found out it was bad because I found a better food. New information is coming out all the time. At the time the pet stores around me didn't have many options for rat food. (I haven't been to Petco in a while but they only had Forti Diet lab blocks and tons of brands of seed mix. I know Petsmart now carries Oxbow. They just recently opened last year near me.)


The definition of cull is selective killing. I've always heard it used like that. I know rat breeders (and other animal breeders) who do use cull as kill and they put down undesirable animals. I say discontinue a line or something similar when talking about getting rid of undesirable rats. Since chewing might be a learned behavior I knew breeders who did not want their lines exposed to chewers so they culled them or they adopted them out as undesirable. 


She said older boys. She didn't specify. In any case, I didn't say she put them in with adults. I just said what I do and do not do. Just sharing my opinion like we have been. : ) When I was first starting and working with other breeders (there were a lot popping up and most are gone now) it was trial and error with selecting rats because I found that not every breeder was honest. Even with introducing slowly some males were still dominant and would fight with new additions. (Thankfully with selective breeding I have greatly reduced that to just a few scuffles every now and then.) I have only had one very bad experience with adding a smaller baby to my males. (That rat aggressor was not from my lines.) It was enough to make me never consider it again because I will never take that risk. What I experienced haunts me. (I have heard some bad stories too (not about my rats) and it just scares me. But I also have clients who do not follow my suggestions, add the babies in before 12 weeks, and have fighting but nothing serious happens. Or nothing happens at all.) Plus, I never want to have to tell a client that the rats they picked had suffered a tragedy or injury. Babies are not as strong as adults. So when I separate males babies they never go in with my males. (By time I followed the introduction process (that I firmly believe in) they would have already been ready to go. Even if I kept them until 8 weeks old.) I do let them all on the couch and visit with Dad. (Not that it matters what male I pick because they are all sweet.) That way they all can interact but they can't annoy him too much with their energy. Tiny babies are so energetic and “run circles” around the adults.
My rats, for a while now, are very passive and accepting when a new cage mate comes. (My females like to groom the new comers until it annoys them.) I always do quarantine for four weeks with new rats then when they come to my house I go through the introduction process. So males (and females if I get them) are older when they live with the adults anyways. During “play dates” the adults do not display any aggression and they probably could live with the adults with no issue. It's just my preference to not do it. It's what I feel comfortable with. I am overly cautious. I do not feel they are losing out for not living with my adults because even though mine have sweet personalities and excellent temperaments I can't guarantee that an accident will never happen. I'm not a risk taker and I will always take the safest option (in my opinion). I do not judge anyone who does not agree with me and does things differently.


(I think it is cute that you have a Wolf, Jaguar, and Coyote (all predators) then a Chamois. Do you mind if I ask your thoughts behind naming them? I always love to hear what my adopters will be naming the rats. Some have such interesting reasons why.)


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

Okeedoke22,


You're definitely right. : ) Reading I mostly see cull used as kill. (I don't recall seeing cull as discontinue. But people use things differently. I just automatically see is as the dictionary definition. Going through vet tech school and going to farms and listening about farm animals it just stuck with me as kill. I'm sensitive so it was a very impressionable learning experience. I knew it happened but hearing it first person was different. My farm would be over run with “not good enough to breed” animals because I could never cull unless it was more humane than letting them just live out their lives.) 



In the main girl cage I can't tell who does what (unless I catch them in the act) but someone loves making the hammocks not hang any more. They take it and shove it in the igloos. It's so amusing to watch the girls still try to lay in a partially hung hammock. I sew ones for the boys because theirs last forever. But for the girls I do quick ones, use old t shirts, and use my husband's boxer briefs that have lost elasticity. (I got the idea after seeing someone using an old bra. I thought it was just the funniest thing.) What do you use to wash your hammocks? I wash mine weekly (or more if needed) and no matter what I use they always retain some smell so I eventually throw them away. (Not like a gross smell, just a smell. I guess like a concentrated male smell.)


I appreciate your kind words. I love my rats so much. I'd never purposely do something that is not best for them. (I am so glad I have been able to learn and grow.) I love being able to provide support to those looking for rats and helping them with the knowledge I have. I don't have many in real life friends who share my love for rats so I definitely rattle on when I find someone who does. My husband's friend says I have a rat farm and calls me a rat lady. LOL


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## AkCrimson (Dec 2, 2013)

Okeedoke22 said:


> Coffebean . Good Luck in Massachusetts. Such an amazing place. Really have loved my visits there.


The only disagreement with anything you've said! I have lived all over the country (Alaska, Puerto Rico, Maine, Mass, NH) and spent a lot of time across the whole country. Mass is the most mediocre place I've been to (aside from Oklahoma). Too many rules, rude people, and not enough to do. This is all coming from a small town girl though, to be fair! 

Firefly - you keep mentioning being offended at being called a teenager, are you one? Just curious. Also agree with you on the vet recommendation thing. It is the same with dog food. Unfortunately. a lot of vet programs are funded by companies like Purina or Science Diet, so the vets endorse them because they are either obligated to or don't know any better. That's why it's always good to do plenty of your own research!

ALSO, as a programmer and Computer Science major, I think critiquing or criticizing someone elses website without having tried to build you own (especially when you do the HTML/CSS yourself) is unfair. No offense, but I challenge you to go try and do the same! Granted, there are plenty of good free hosts out there worth checking out, but that is beginning to get off the point of this thread...I just didn't think, of all things, criticizing someones website is really very fair.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

AkCrimson said:


> The only disagreement with anything you've said! I have lived all over the country (Alaska, Puerto Rico, Maine, Mass, NH) and spent a lot of time across the whole country. Mass is the most mediocre place I've been to (aside from Oklahoma). Too many rules, rude people, and not enough to do. This is all coming from a small town girl though, to be fair!


I lived in a tiny town all my live and I really like it here. 




The Firefly Rattery said:


> Okeedoke22,





The Firefly Rattery said:


> You're definitely right. : ) Reading I mostly see cull used as kill. (I don't recall seeing cull as discontinue. But people use things differently. I just automatically see is as the dictionary definition. Going through vet tech school and going to farms and listening about farm animals it just stuck with me as kill. I'm sensitive so it was a very impressionable learning experience. I knew it happened but hearing it first person was different. My farm would be over run with “not good enough to breed” animals because I could never cull unless it was more humane than letting them just live out their lives.)




I believe cull has multiple definitions one of them is "to remove, as in something undesirable" which is probably where the soft cull type thing is coming from. Though usually to cull an animal has traditionally been to remove from a herd (like by killing). So that's probably the confusion.


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

AkCrimson,


LMAO. I could not agree with you more about Massachusetts. Which place is your favorite?


I mentioned it twice to reply to it. I didn't mean to harp on it. : ) I am offended because I am far from a teenager. I haven't been one in a long time. I did start when I was one. I had a mentor that I “apprenticed” with. They and I disagreed on some things and I started widening my range. (That sounds lousy. I really can not find the words I am looking for. I'm suffering from fatigue today. I don't want to say “widen my circle” but it's similar.)


When I was doing internships I learned that vets didn't always recommend the best but what they were basically told to recommend. (That shocked me.) I say it all the time now in dog / cat posts. People think that vet brands (Science Diet, Royal Canin, etc.) are the best because they come from the vet office. Some people become very hostile when told otherwise. I can understand why they are upset though. I was disappointed that they were not the heroes I thought they were. (Recently I was told a food was good for my cats. (Not exact words but close.) I said, “But, the first ingredient is corn meal. It has a lot of grain in it.” They said, “It was researched and ingredients were picked for a reason.” I said, “They are obligate carnivores and should eat a dry food that is grain free.” They replied, “So? It was formulated to be the best for cats.” I left it alone. Could you imagine if I mentioned raw?)


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## Firefly Ratties (Apr 11, 2017)

Coffeebean,

Some places in Mass are nice. The city I live in is not my ideal city. (There are definitely worse cities.) I'd prefer to be in a much woodsier area, by the ocean. Forest and seaside, my two favorite places. I am glad you have enjoyed the move. : )


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## Okeedoke22 (Dec 31, 2016)

The firefly rattery- Haha. I had to go down in basement to check what I use to wash fleece and hammocks. Purex free and clear. Scent free. And use distilled vinegar in 1st rinse then rinse again. Very funny but I'm a very spoiled husband of a wonderful, patient wife. I have never done laundry before. The only laundry I have ever done is for my rats. I'm the only 1 who washes my boys' stuff as I have done the most reading and research and basically they are my babies(my sons are older now). 

I have read that once ammonia smell sets in it's really hard to get that out. Having many hammocks and rotating every few days will help. I only have 3 rats so it's much easier. Plus so far I have been so lucky. My boys love to pee on their pee rock. They do not pee on hammocks at all. With that said they also don't sleep in them much. Lol. They like their shoebox and igloo on ground floor in Aspen bedding. 

AKCrimson - too funny. I'm from New York City so rude is kind of like being home I guess. Haha. No really I love Boston and Cape Cod. I'm Irish so it's like being in the old country. Hoping my son's go to Harvard or Boston college. I was in Boston for the last Mcgregor fight (not a UFC fan but my friends are) the bar was so insane. Cops were coming in to watch fight and cheer. Never been to Alsaks or Puerto Rico or maybe I would agree with you. If I ever get choice of vacation it's going to be Alaska but my wife will veto. She thinks she will freeze to death. My wife is a silly one.


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## Nieve5552 (May 20, 2014)

Firefly Ratties said:


> Nieve5552,
> 
> .....removed to reduce space.....
> 
> (I think it is cute that you have a Wolf, Jaguar, and Coyote (all predators) then a Chamois. Do you mind if I ask your thoughts behind naming them? I always love to hear what my adopters will be naming the rats. Some have such interesting reasons why.)


I didnt mean that asking a vet for proper care was a bad thing, I was merely stating 'i've never had experience asking a vet about this stuff so unsure what my vet would recommend...', apologies for not getting that across more clearly 
I guess Im quite lucky that where im from, the rat rescue produces their own balanced lab block diet.. So i dont have to make a choice between harlan vs oxbow etc, as Ive seen people discuss both of them in negative light, although Harlan is available here.

I understand where you're coming from about the whole definition of cull aspect, I just thought I'd put the non-kill way of 'cull' out there especially in this context of 'culling to eliminate non-aggressive behaviour' because my personal thought was that the non-kill method was more likely in such situation. And you sounded extremely disturbed so I thought i might try help eliminate that feeling  

In regards to the baby-adult intro, I read your comment as a disagreement/judgement of the practice not just a statement of your own practices, so I thought i might just mention a reason behind potential difference in results  Apologies if you had a different meaning

With the names, when I first got Chamois and Wolf, Chamois' tan and white reminded me of chamois coat..(although a lot of them are grey) And i think the name Chamois is quite cute and very uncommon as a pet name. Wolf.. I love wolves haha and his coat was grey
When I got Jag and Coyo, I thought I'd keep going with the theme. As someone who studied biology at university for 7 years just because of my love for animals, I think its a quite fitting theme  I named Jaguar and Coyote probably just because I love large carnivores, and these are cool names. Sorry I feel like the reasons arent as interesting as you thought they might be!


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