# Pregnant Rat, a few questions for pre and post pregnancy



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hello,
It came to be that one of male rats that I got from a Craigslist "breeder" (the only breeder within two hours that didn't do feeders/wasn't a pet shop) was a female. By the time I realised that it wasn't dominance humping but of the baby making variety, it was too late (within a week of getting them, so I hadn't inspected them too closely preferring to gain their trust). The male is Remus and the female is Caius, they are about 8 or 9 weeks old.

Now, she hasn't gone into heat again but nor does she show any other signs of being pregnant. I estimate her to be due Monday night or Tuesday (21 days). I don't have a scale, but she has not visibly gained weight. She doesn't nest (she redecorates her cage, but always has), and her nipples are no more prominent than before. Nor is she experiencing any behavioural changes. Can I be sure she is pregnant just on the fact that she hasn't gone into heat? I ask because I was told they were "recently weaned" upon purchase, which was back in June. She clearly had been in a male-cage while sexually mature and was in my cage for a week before signs of heat stopped.
I kept her with her cage mate for most of the time (after determining it was too late). Assuming she is due Monday, should I move her now or wait until Sunday morning when they tuck in? I realize it may be irresponsible, but the hours I work mean I can't play with them individually as much as I hear is necessary for lone rats. Remus acts aggressive without her and Caius spends her time attempting to jump through the lid of the mommy cage ( a converted tub). I had read too that to reduce stress she shouldn't be moved until the 20th day (the 21st being the due date).

I've read up online about rat pregnancy and have been studying reputable breeder's practices, so I think I have that down. The only question is in regards to the mother's aggression and scent. Right now, Caius is my sweet shy little baby girl who likes to sit on my shoulder and preen my hair and never bites (as opposed to Remus who is a ball of energy and nips my hand to play). I hope that her attitude remains the same (she never minds any sort of handling,invading, waking, etc.) but cannot predict that. If she is less than enthusiastic about me messing about her, I've heard my scent on her kits could be bothersome. I've placed an old me-smelling shirt in a corner of her mommy cage as a nest-option (she also has a hidey-hole and a tissue nest I made) but have been wondering about the descent spray I use on them. I have this papaya mist that I use in between cleanings to keep the "rat" smell down -- if that is a familiar scent, could that used on my hands prevent any scent-related aggression? Would this also help handling the young because their mother would smell of it (probably)?

And finally, adopting out the kits. I don't want the young to be feeders, obviously, so how can I guarantee a good home? It is my intention and belief that the kits should be as tame as their parents (come on cue, no biting even through cage, enjoy being handled/played with) so I want to find a good home. I've posted pre-emptive ads (as advised for finding good homes) on Hoobly, EbayClassifieds, and unfortunately Craigslist to no avail. I would keep the young, but I doubt I can handle more than 4 and doubt that Caius will have only 2. I asked $7 for one and $12 for a pair, preferring that they be adopted out in pairs. Is that too much? I felt less than that would attract people looking for healthy feeders. Should I not be getting anxious and just wait the five weeks out and hope adorable pictures will help? Is the price too steep? I had wanted to use any profit from selling the babies to go towards neutering the father, because after the first day even I had become too emotionally attached to return them to this "breeder" (snake spotted in her home upon leaving hm...) or doom them to die in our local shelter, which just last week received three baby rats.
My concern is that I have name-trained my rats. I can't do that with babies with no names, so I had wanted prospective adopters to contact me by the third week with a name and a commitment to adopt. The breeders who live in-state follow these same practices, but I was worried that as I am no "breeder" these practices would seem bizarre for me to do.

Thanks!

Here's some pictures of the lovebirds just cause I love to show my babies off (Caius, the mother is the grey one with a white-diamond head and white belly, the father Remus is the black-hooded white one:
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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

If she's pregnant, you should separate them. It's actually best to separate them in case she's not pregnant. Unless your hoping for babies at this point.. If she's due on Monday, I'd think she'd have a nice size belly by now. If her belly doesn't look "large" then she might be having a small litter or was impregnated at a later date. Then again, she might not be pregnant yet. 

Not sure on the pricing for finding homes for them Around here, you can get free rats off craigslist all the time.

I hope all goes well.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I would separate them now as well. Rats are able to give birth within 24 hours of giving birth, so if she gives birth early you could have another litter, and back to back litters are hard on their bodies especially at this age. They should both be fine for the few weeks they are separated.

Since she's not going into heat she's probably pregnant. Not all pregnant rats have huge bellies. A friend of mine had an oops litter and she never had a belly. She gave birth to a healthy litter of 10.

I'm a bit confused by scent related aggression. Rats often aren't stressed out by new scents on their babies. How much she lets you handle her babies depends on her personality and how much she trusts you. By the sounds of it, you shouldn't have too many issues.

7 dollars is ok, but normally 10 dollars or a bit higher is recommended since that's the same price if not higher then most pet stores. Also might want to make it clear that they must be adopted in pairs unless they have proof of having another rat.

I wouldn't worry too much about the names. Mainly because young rats learn quickly, so they'll learn from their new owners. Also most people when they actually meet their rats will often change their names because they find out it doesn't match them. You'll already be having a lot of time spent on socializing which is what you really need to worry about.

For advertising the litter, other then local ads (might be better when they are actually born) or on forums like here.

Not too related. The Father looks like a Black Variegated, and Mom a Variberk Cinnamon? (can you get pictures of her sides?). Meaning you'll most likely be getting Variberks and Variegateds in Agouti, Black, and possibility of Albino, Beige, Fawn, Cinnamon, and Mink. (Also possibility of hoodeds and berkshires).


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Alright, I'm letting them out for a quick free roam and putting them up in separate cages.

After I posted this, she began nesting behaviour She tore of the corners of a blanket I use to cover their cage at times. So, it looks like it was time anyway.

She wasn't much interested in standing still for pictures, so this is the best I could get:
View attachment 55210

That's really interesting about the colouring, thanks! Those are very amazing colours, is it still likely if their parents and siblings were mostly just like them? (that is, similar color/markings)


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Okay, so I just brought them in from a free roam. I had to cut it short because I got concerned. Remus started chasing Caius around and then flipping her over and smelling her girly bits. It wasn't like what he did during heat but it was strange. What does this behavior mean?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh, shoot I forgot to respond to the scent thing. I read mother rats identify babies by scent and can ignore a baby that smells different or over groom them. Caius' eyes aren't the greatest, so she often does rely on sticking her nose in the air or using her paws to feel.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Not sure on the flipping over.

The whole if it doesn't smell like them they reject it thing is mainly a myth just like with birds. The main thing different smells does is stress the mom out. Though if she knows your scent then your fine.

I don't want to be rude, but can you reword the color question? Sorry if that offends you in any way, I'm not trying to be rude.

I'm assuming though your asking that can they both be siblings? (Remus and Caius). Yes they can. Because of the way rat genetics works, it's quite easy to get a wide range of patterns and colors, especially since eye color in rats plays a huge roll in their color, and often times rats carry recessive genes.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

She really does not look pregnant so I'll hold out hope that she isn't--she's far too young for a litter. If her brother is only 8 weeks old it's more than possible he hasn't taken an interest yet, though his behavior during free roam suggests that he might be getting to that point. While boys are technically sexually mature at five weeks, it's rare for them to have any interest in females until they're 8-10 weeks at least, usually close to 12, so you may have gotten very lucky. Keep them separated from now on, however, until either Caius gets spayed or Remus gets neutered. 
In any event, if she is pregnant it will probably be a while before you get good takers on the rat babies. You want to screen carefully, ask a lot of questions, and do what you can to assure that they have cages and know about rat care--this will help reduce the chance that they'll be snake food. 
I'd also suggest a rehoming price of $15 for a pair, and only rehome them as a single baby if you have actually seen the previous owner's rats, but still them you should insist on pairs are babies do much better being introduced to adults in pairs anyway.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I've seen him mounting her, but had assumed them both to be boys and thought it was a dominance thing. When I got suspicious, it was his second day of doing it (first time was the night they were brought home when I left them to get situated, the second 4 days later) and I flipped her over and saw she was in heat (after rapid googling). She has not been in heat since then (I've checked repeatedly every day). He had a real frenzied interest in her when I caught her in heat and was desperate to get to her when I separated them. After a week, she still hadn't gone into heat so I assumed she was pregnant. Like I said, she hasn't had any real weight gain or behavioral changes. However, she did a LOT of "redecorating" in the mommy cage last night making all three corners into how she wanted them. She's been very lethargic as well -- though the male also has been but not at her level, assumedly because of their separation. Could a vet tell me if she was pregnant if I took her in -- I just don't like not knowing whats happening.

And by colors, I meant that are colours different from what they are still likely if the parents of Remus and Caius and their young were all similar to Remus and Caius? I don't really know how to phrase it, so its okay to disregard. Remus and Caius are siblings, and the other rats in their litter looked the same as them relatively. The parents of Remus and Caius were also similarly colored, so I didn't know if fawn, beige and such were still likely if two generations lacked that variation.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I wouldn't take her to a vet in till she is about 25 days in to her being pregnant. Since she's not going into heat, it is still possible she's pregnant despite her size. Though looking at it again, from her size I would say if she is pregnant it's going to be a small litter unless she balloons up within the next few days. 8 weeks is Rare for them to get pregnant, but is has happened before.

I get what your asking now. 

In theory, yes. Recessive such as ruby eyes can hide for multiple generations. Usually it's caught within 2 to 4 generations, but it can still linger on for well over 10 or more generations.

Since their siblings then, Fawn and Beige probably aren't as likely to happen then, same for Albino. You'll probably end up with Agouti, Black, Cinnamon, and Mink. (If they are siblings he's likely to be het mink. mink on agouti creates Cinnamon).


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I actually just had to guess at their age; the "breeder" simply said "recently weaned" and when I asked if that meant 5 or 6 weeks said yes. I tried to determine their age on my own since they were still relatively small, but couldn't. Right now, if she got pregnant the last time she was in heat she should be 20 days into it.

Thanks for all your help!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

If they were together when you got them at about 3 to 4 weeks (when they are normally weaned at most pet stores), they would be 5 to 7 weeks now. Is it possible your just not catching her heat cycles?

Though, if they haven't been separated in till recently there is still a chance of her being pregnant but giving birth at a later date.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

When I first realised my error in her gender, I flipped her over to see what "in heat" looked like, compared to the internet. I then separated them for a week, one in a cage one in a converted tote (wired the top for ventilation). That night, she was still in heat and they were both going crazy trying to escape and get to each other. I waited three days, and began to check her at 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12am, and 2am for signs of going into heat. There were none and Remus was not at all interested in her -- I checked the 3rd day after her last heat cycle, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. I keep them in my bedroom and when they had gotten "busy" it was quite boisterous and woke me. After no heat cycle, I put her back with him (irresponsible, I know but I had given up hope) but continued counting heat cycle days and checking her and his interest in her. Nothing at all, even to this date, I still check her on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th days when she should be going into heat but nothing. I separated them last night and he goes in to be snipped next week, so they will be separate for a month at least. I had hoped that his month would coincide with the 4.5 weeks she'd be with her kit.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Is lethargy an indication of pregnancy? Should I just take her to the vet? She has been real lazy; she broke out last night and crawled straight to me to cuddle rather than to explore. I put her with the male while I fix how she broke out (I don't have any third spare cage, other than wire bird cages) and she laid down in her old favorite sleeping spot. I thought she was dead because when I brought a treat she wouldn't rouse, even with poking and me swaying the hanging nest. I set it down and ran to call for help. When I returned, she was eating the treat where I had left it as if nothing had happened. I picked her up and checked her for other symptoms but she is just fine; no discharge, labored breathing/coughing/sneezing, unkept coat, hunching, squeaking, etc.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

it Can happen in pregnancy, but most likely it's because she was separated from her cage mate. Charles did similar things when his brother Einstien died.

This might also be a good time to make another bin cage or get a smaller cage off of craigslist. If she does have babies you have to separate the males from the females and mom between 4 and 5 weeks. Also even though it's unlikely in this case, every time she is put back with her male friend there is still that potential that they can mate.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, she hasn't given birth and really doesn't seem like she might -- she's spent the last two days trying to re-escape her bin cage and get to Remus. I've decided to just make one appointment for the both of them, to get him neutered and her checked. Will update!


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thank you for keeping us updated! Glad to hear she might not have little ones--that'll be easier on both of you. I bet she's looking forward to being reunited, but she will be fine until her brother has been all fixed up for her.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Okay, I'm not sure if this is related. Tonight Caius was acting particularly distressed in her cage. I couldn't figure out what was going on with my baby girl. She is really squeaky when I touch her. So I swapped Remus into the bin cage and her into the wire multi-level one. They were together for a minute at most. He didn't touch her or anything (more interested in the cage) but when he came close she was very squeaky (he enjoys walking atop her to get around her). He definitely didn't attack her. She even squeaked when I picked her up (no different than usual).
She's now in the wire cage and running around frantically as if to escape. I tripled checked to make sure she didn't have babies in secret while I was at work today.
Normally, Caius is the mellow cuddler. She enjoys naps and pets. Is she acting crazy for any reason that is related?
She is off to the vet on Tuesday.

Edit: When I meant distressed, I meant attempting to escape. She is almost always trying to but never this bad.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, to follow up with myself, I am thinking maybe I was wrong about pregnancy date. I started another forum on Rat Behavior hoping that there were answers.
"She calmed down this morning, but that's normal since she is tucking in for bed. She absolutely destroyed her cage last night. She broke her hammock, shredded the blanket I use to keep their cage dark and out of the sun. She tore the monster-face of her Monster's University wheel. I've not seen her this bad before. She spent most of the night Koopa-ing (crawling like the turtles in Mario Bros. across the cage wires) and trying to worm her way out or just staring at me. 

She still got super squeaky when I approached the cage, Remus on my shoulder (he stays up later in the morning, so I usually take him about as I prepare the animals for the day). Not like, oh yay a friend but just squeaky and runny. I put him back and tried to handle her. She didn't squeak, unlike the night before."

I am thinking maybe what I saw as "DISASTER ZONE!" she might've seen as a lovely nest redecoration. She is more mellow in the wire cage. If I were to take the levels out, is there anyway she could stay in there? She clearly prefers it and is less able to escape. I would say that the bottom pan is at least two inches away from the wire with bedding and such; it is 4 without, and I don't put THAT much bedding in but they like to take bedding out of the food corner and the other corner and pile it elsewhere (remus digging). The wire is 1/4in spacing. Without the levels and discounting her broken hammock, she has nothing that she could potentially take her babies on to and accidentally drop them.


Here is hoping either for no babies or the healthiest **** babies the world has ever seen.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

View attachment 57633
This is her belly. I tried to get her to reach for a treat but she climbed for it. (Sorry for the messy cage, it was set up with a wheel for my male and then she utterly destroyed it last night)


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Take out all the levels, the wheel, and the hammock. The pan might be fine, but just in case, try to put pieces of cardboard between the pan and the cage or make a coroplast tray (you can get coroplast at most sign shops). People in the UK often use cages with deep pans (though I believe it's around 6 inches deep) for maternity cages so it shouldn't be too big of an issue.


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## FamilyRatters1 (Jun 22, 2013)

I really think you should be more careful about your male and female going together. Even for a minute. Those males are sneaky.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, she has her babies. It was later than expected and she definitely had me tearing my hair out. I'll post more about it later, when she calms down so I can get a good count and pictures.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Forgot to update it.
She had ten babies, all fairly bigger than I expected (2/3 the length of my pinky?!). However, in her cage I had put a box thing to hide in. Now, it only serves to frustrate me when she nests in it. I can't check on her easily. While she isn't aggressive, she really wants treats and can get nippy (first treat she lunged so fast I had to see if it was aggression in my concern but it wasn't). Can I take the box out? Other than the box, there is no hideyhole only areas to nest -- it is a 110qt bin cage.


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