# I need you're advice.



## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, so I just joined this group, and I tried posting in the behavior forum, but I don't have permission. That's cool, I'll post here.

**Warning!** Lengthy, heartfelt post ahead!

Last year my 9 year old daughter, Rae, saved up $140 and read books to find the perfect pet for her.  She decided on a rat. After her research, she knew that she really should get at least two, and she did just that. She purchased the best home she could get for her money, along with supplies, toys and stuff to make them a perfect home.

She wanted two female rats. We purchased two sweet hooded fancy girls in November, Angel and Lilly. They brought her great joy, and we learned much about rat behavior and training. Sadly, there was a tragic accident a few weeks ago and Lily was killed. It was a freak thing, someone bumped into a wall, and a large picture was knocked off while Lilly was exploring. She did not suffer; she died instantly. We buried her, and my daughter, Rae, said she was happy that Lilly died doing what she loved most - exploring every nook and cranny of everything! Rae began researching how to introduce a new rat to an older one.

We soon realized this was going to be a process. So, together, we bought a small cage for the new baby, read up on rat introductions and purchased Crystal, a baby fancy. The pet store said she was 8 weeks, but I'm quite sure she is a bit older. She is already well socialized, and not nearly as skittish as Lilly and Angel were when we bought them. She plays so well with my daughter!

After quarantine, we began the intro process by placing the cages in the same room. Angel, the 6 month old, was VERY agitated by this! She hissed and lunged at the cage. She nipped the baby's toes and, whenever she could, she bit Crystal through the cage bars. She looked like a rabid dog trying to bite and dig through the cage to get to the other rat. Seeing how upset she was, we took Crystal out of the room for a day. We did more research, and decided that this may take quite some time.

So we purchased a much larger cage for the baby so, she'd have more room to play. We created a play schedule where Angel was let out first to play, with us right there to keep her from being too vicious to Crystal through her cage, and then putting Angel back in her cage so that we could let Crystal out to play. We have one room for rat play, so Angel would watch and sniff as the baby was allowed to roam around. We've mostly let Crystal play in areas AWAY from Angel's cage, and we put things in Angel's cage to distract her, like new treats (applesauce in a dixie cup usually does the trick for a while). Sometimes, I take Angel for a walk around the house to get her little mind off the fact that an "invader" is playing her space. I hope I'm doing this right!

So it's been four days of this, and Angel is MORE aggressive than EVER! When she's out she spends most of her play time hissing and tearing at the cage to get to Crystal. When she gets exceptionally vicious to Crystal, my daughter sprays her rump with water and says, "No!" Then, when Angel goes back, Rae rubs her nape and shoulders while the rats sniff each other and says, "Good girl. Be nice." When my daughter rubs Angel, Angel settles down, closes her eyes and doesn't hiss, lunge at the cage or try to bite Crystal. But today, when Rae sprayed her rump, Angel did not run off; she stopped the biting, but still clung to the cage. Then she lunged and tried to bite again. Even when we let Angel out to play, she is just not herself. She seems frantic and agitated. She sticks close by her cage and favorite nesting spots near her cage (a dresser drawer and a cardboard box) , whereas before she was much more laid back and roamed all over the room. I'm assuming she feels extremely threatened by the new rat, and I'm sure she's grieving the loss of Lilly. 

Sigh...

Angel was ALWAYS the dominant of our two original rats. She routinely "beat up" and aggressively groomed Lilly, who was much smaller, though they were about the same size when we bought them. Lilly would often squeak repeatedly in the middle of the night, but never showed any wounds. We knew that this was normal rat social behavior, and Angel was asserting her dominant position.  They stayed in the same hammock together, but for a few weeks before she was killed, Lilly began making her own little nest inside the cage. She always had a certain spot in the playroom that was hers, but now she was finding a separate area in the cage to eat and sometimes in which to nap. We set up an upside down small basket for her to use as her own space, and we often found her in there. So, we did notice Angel becoming a bit of a bully before we ever began introducing a new rat.

So here's what I need help with. This is all VERY DISTRESSING to ME! I take the care of these animals very seriously. When we lost Lilly, I was sick with guilt. I felt like I should have protected her somehow. But, I know it was completely accidental. I would be devastated if something happened to this little baby. I feel very irresponsible for getting this new baby without taking into consideration Angel's recent aggressive cage behavior. I'm torn over how to proceed. Should I continue the plan I have in place? My current plan is to keep the cages near each other for a week, then, for another week, start switching cages for a short bit each day, then moving on to a tub intro, then intro in the playroom, and seeing how it all goes from there. Or should I take the baby out of Angel's territory for a while and try again in a month? Perhaps this way, Angel will settle the heck down! But my fear is that Crystal will get older and start seeing the area as hers, thus she gets defensive. So far, Crystal is very content to submit, but I've not had them near each other without a cage separating them, so I don't know how it will work out. I suppose I must accept the fact that Angel may never accept the new rat, and they will have to live separately. In that case, should I get a new rat so that Crystal can have a cage mate? Should we re-home Crystal so she won't be terrorized?

My family thinks I'm blowing this way out of proportion. They try to encourage me saying, "They're just rats! Relax." But I just don't think that way. I want them both to be content and socially fulfilled. I am coming here, because I'm hoping other rat owners will understand my distress, and give me good advice on the matter. I'm not giving up. Thanks for reading this LENGTHY post. ???


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

I need YOUR advice! Not "YOU'RE"! As a grammar nazi, I tried to correct the thread title, but, alas, I could not. Drives me nuts.


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

Wow, what a story. First off, I have to say I'm really impressed with your daughter. I think one of my nephews would have been bright enough at 9 to research pets, but I think the other kids would have been too lazy. You have a keeper there (not that you can get rid of her anyway).

I've done some reading, and I haven't read much that matches your situation. And I'm too new at this to even know what to say. Now I'm a little worried because one of our rats is bullying the youngest, but they're only 4 weeks apart, so I hope this will be outgrown. I can't even imagine any of my rats acting like Angel has been.

From what I've read, keeping the cages separate might be a good idea. One post says that if a rat knows another rat is there but can't figure out a way to get to it, then that could make the agitation worse. At the very least, letting Angel settle down seems like a good idea. It's also less stress for Crystal, I'm sure.

Have you considered a third rat? Give Crystal a playmate so she won't be lonely. That depends, I guess, on how large your main cage is. 

What if you took Crystal out for your daughter to play with away from the cages and put Angel in Crystal's cage? Then Angel is surrounded only by Crystal's smell and wouldn't be the dominant. I may be playing with fire here suggesting that. I fear that maybe the smell of Crystal would get Angel all freaked out. 

From the sounds of things, you've not yet put the two rats together in a common space. I can't say I blame you. While it makes sense that Angel will never warm to Crystal without meeting, what you describe would give me pause too. 

Just pulling something out of my arse here. What if you put Angel in Crystal's cage and thoroughly wash Angel's cage with bleach or vinegar? Then have Crystal live there. That way, Angel has to live with Crystal's scent. Even if you swap them back to their original cages, Angel has to contend with Crystal's scent. I base this on how it seems that rats tend to be more dominant when their homes are familiar. If you can break Angel's tie to her home, maybe(?) she'll be less dominant. I have my doubts, but it may be worth a try. 

Considering how fast rats can be, I hate the idea of getting them used to each other without bars. You may be able to hold Angel still, but she could launch herself at Crystal when she's brought into the space, and you'd be left standing in shock. 

I've never seen my rats do this. I've never read of rats doing this (though there are some threads about aggressive male rats that I ignored because they don't apply to me). I don't think you're blowing it out of proportion. From what you say, this could end up with a second dead rat. I don't blame you for being worried.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

You're doing good by keeping the cages close together. Right now Angel sees Crystal as an invader. She doesn't recognize her as part of the colony. I had a similar problem when I tried to introduce a young Wednesday to my very territorial alpha rat Science. I started out by keeping them in seperate cages but close enough that they could smell and see each other. Rats identify fellow members of their colony by scent which is why it's recommended to clean and rearange the home cage during introductions (destroys the scent). You can also change the smell of the rats to help the process along. At petstores they put drops of vanilla extract onto all of the rats being introduced to each other in order to make their scents neutral. Neutral/strange places make for a bonding experience because the rats shouldn't feel the need to defend it. I successfully bonded my older girl to my younger girl by covering them both in baby food (destroys the scent and makes for a delicious albeit messy distraction) and putting them in a cheap hamster cage (it's neutral territory and small enough that they can't run away from each other.) I put them in the living room with the tv on while I supervised the bonding process (the living room was unfamiliar to both of them and the tv made for a nice distraction). It is important to know your rats limits though. I suggest you read up on rat body language as much as you can so that you'll be able to differentiate between squabbles and the beginning of a fight.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Try taking the two cages to a NEW area, not one "owned". Failing cages, you could let one out and keep one behind bars. All for safety. Intros should be done on neutral ground. Everything else you are doing is perfect, especially the positive/negative reinforcement when Angel is being aggressive or being well behaved. I would also try demonstrating to Angel that Crystal is "accepted" by the humans.

Also, though I think by your timeline it doesn't apply too much, females under 12 weeks are viewed as threats by older rats. Just worth considering. You can post a picture with a common place item and we can guestimate ages for you if you want.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Thank you very much, Kuildeous. I need the affirmation! I completely cleaned and rearranged Angel's cage before I even brought Crystal home. I intend to do that again in the event I EVER put them in the same cage. I am definitely planning on the cage switcheroo thing next week. When I actually do put them in the same space together, I intend to have my daughter right there to watch Crystal, whilst I, with extra thick gardening gloves on, stand at the ready to grab Angel right out of the mix should a bloody fight ensue! I'm just waiting for signs that Angel is relaxing a bit. If I'm in the room when Angel is out, she'll come and play on me - she loves me to pieces. But after a few minutes she's back at Crystal's cage. I just want some positive contact so that she will equate Crystal with good things. I may do some research on that.

Thanks for the comments about my daughter. She's my only girl; she has one older brother and one younger. We homeschool, so we made the rat research thing part of our studies; the kids loved it. When she started training them, that became a great lesson on behaviorism!


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

nanashi7... I think that is a GREAT idea! If I move the two of them to the family room for a while, maybe Angel will settle down. She'll freak out a little bit; she does when she's in unfamiliar territory, but after a few days that may work out well. Convincing my daughter to let me move them out of her room temporarily may be a challenge! She's quite possessive of them!

Mrs. Brisby... When I first brought Crystal home, another rat owner gave some advice. I put almond oil on both of them, put the cages in the same room for two days, then I put them together in the tub (neutral territory) to see how they did. I was ready with gloves on, but Angel COMPLETELY IGNORED Crystal because all she could focus on was getting out of that tub! It was quite comical, actually, because Angel was so intensely distracted by being in unfamiliar territory, that she had nothing to do with the other rat. It was then that I dug deeper into the rat introduction process, that I realized the advice I followed was really jumping the gun. But, it DID show me that neutral territory is a key factor here. I just hadn't thought about moving both cages out of the playroom.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually, having her freaked out will make intros easier. Rats are more likely to work together in distress, which is why some people use stress bonding (caged together atop running dryer, meeting in a slightly filled bath tub).


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

Hmm, does Angel do anything that is at least neutral when Crystal is concerned? So far it sounds like everything is negative, but if she goes to the cage and doesn't snarl, then maybe you could give her a treat. Of course, if she snarls, then discipline her. Eventually, she may learn that if chills out, then she gets a treat. And definitely treats for when you do introduce them. There may be hope for her yet. 

I think it'd break our hearts if our oldest started doing that. She's kind of bullying the youngest, but we're giving it time. The youngest will soon be as big as them. But if she ever acted like how Angel is acting, we'd be beside ourselves.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Kuildeous... When their cages are next to each other, she doesn't hiss or act aggressively from her cage. Of course they aren't RIGHT NEXT to each other (no room). They are close enough to see and smell one another. A few times they've sniffed each other and it's calm for about five seconds. Then Angel gets really still and suddenly lashes out. Little stinker! I started calling her "Kid Vicious!" I'm trying to think of more ways to incorporate more positive interactions. You're idea of the treats sounds perfect. Even if it's just a few seconds of sniffing without aggression then immediately give her positive rubs and a treat.

I'll tell you what is also frustrating. Play time was usually one hour in mid morning then one hour in the evening. But now, it's cut because we have to give each one of them playtime separately. My husband refuses to let them play anywhere else but in my daughter's room (the rat play room). But Angel would do fine in the family room or my older son's room for out of the cage playtime. Working on him...


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

nanashi7... The lady who advised me to intro them quickly in the tub also suggested bathing them both together and putting them in a neutral cage. She said they'd be so traumatized that they'd huddle together in shock. That was interesting, but I don't think I could do it. But I may have to apply some of the "stress bonding" ideal in order to break Angel of her angry streak.

Here's a pick of Crystal next to a dinner fork. The store said 8 weeks, but when I commented that she looked a little big for that age, she said, "Oh, well then, maybe 10 weeks." I got the impression she didn't know at all.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

I wouldn't worry to much about Angel's behavior. It is pretty normal for her at the moment. I've done several intros were things did take a little longer to work themselves out. The first into was with my old mischief, where I introduced my neutered male, Pastoolio, to my females, Molly and Mimi, at the time. This intro took about two months to two and a half months to really work. I had a little more time to work with because I was getting Pastoolio neutered and needed to wait until he was 8 weeks old before getting him neutered. During the first weeks home his cage was side by side with the girls cage. My difficult rat at the time was Mimi. She would do the same thing that Angel is doing in your cage, lunge out, hiss, and puff up. Once Pastoolio was out of surgery I did several intros with having him in my lap while the girls free ranged and sniffed him. When he was all healed up and offically sterile I did bathroom intros. The entire time through the intros Mimi did the same thing, which was hiss, puff up, and attack. After about a week of this, and Mimi scratching his back I ended up putting them in a small carrier together without anything else in it and watched them while I did homework. After an hour or so I looked down to see this, and they were best friends from that they forth.



My second difficult into was with my rat Lynn and my current mischief. I have two hairless siblings, V and Evy, and V acts very much like a big brother. If something is stressing out Evy he's there to defend her. Lynn was a rat I found outside in someone's backyard. At the time she was in pretty bad shape, and I ended up nursing her back to health. When doing intros with the rest of my rats, V and Evy did not like her at all. They would do the same thing Mimi did. Intros only took me two weeks with them though. I ended up introducing Lynn with a really weird method, along with the bathroom method and me holding her in my lap during free range. I put her inside a carrier at night and put the carrier in the cage. After a good few days of doing this there was no more arguments between V, Evy, and Lynn. 

My third most difficult intro was just recently, and it went a lot like Pastoolio's intro did. While Evy seems to have settled down a little, V does not like newcomers. I aquired a 14 day old rat pup laster year in Novemeber. He did not like the new ratty at all, but having the new baby, Crostini, bond with the girls while he was so tiny probably helped. Lynn and Evy would clean him and snuggle with him. It was probably their maternal instinct. Since Evy really like the new guy, V eventually came around. I ended up doing a bathroom intro before completely adding him to the cage. Just as a side note though, Lynn and Evy where allowed nowhere near him when he was weaned and before he was neutered.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Oh my goodness! That is precious! If I saw Angel and Crystal do that, I'd cry with joy. Thanks for that pic phantom.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

She looks about 3 months old, imo.

Some things (like forced baths) sound cruel, but being in a new environment/going for a car ride are all things rats will probably deal with in their life so I wouldn't feel bad making them experience it for the sole purpose of bonding.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

Terjan said:


> Oh my goodness! That is precious! If I saw Angel and Crystal do that, I'd cry with joy. Thanks for that pic phantom.


I hope it helps. =P


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

nanashi7, I am in complete agreement. I think the stress bonding would help Angel immensely. I am in the process of convincing my daughter that moving the rats into the family room would be extremely helpful in achieving our ultimate goal - getting the rats to bond. She is very opposed to this at the moment; moving the rats into the family room means that her brothers will have access to the rats. She doesn't even like the boys SPEAKING to them. Aye carumba! She's put in a lot o time and effort into her pets, and she doesn't share anything well!

I'll pray about how to proceed here. Sounds like my girl needs a little training herself. I could just make a parental edict and force the issue, but I'd rather her be on board with me. Sometimes being a responsible considerate parent just sucks, don't it?!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stop!

Take a deep breath and relax. 

Older female rats go completely out of their minds when introduced to another rat's pup or young rat... They will literally attack or kill other female pups that are too young and 8 weeks can be too young. Honestly I prefer at least 10 to 12 weeks old to do the initial intros. The younger rat has to be old enough to defend herself for intros to work out. Girls fight, then they become best friends... if the younger rat can't keep up her end of the battle she will get killed or driven off. We have girls, they are highly trained true shoulder rats and I've watched each one of them driven completely mad simply by bringing a female rat pup or young rat into the house. One of our girls actually snuck up on us, sniffed the little girl, pretended to be friendly then pounced as soon as we looked away puncturing the baby and trying to drag her off to kill her... And our current family rat still has a split ear from her 3 week free range intro battle, and that's after she was over 10 weeks old.

One of our girls actually attacked a rat pup I was holding in the pet store.

Now to make matters worse, having another rat in the house that isn't part of the pack will also drive a female rat crazy. Her job is to defend your house from invaders, and if she can't do a proper intro, the new rat is an invader... expect your older rat to go progressively more insane the longer she is near the new rat she can't bond with...

So for now, get your two girls as far apart as possible until your new girl gets a bit of size and age on her... at least a few weeks. Try to keep your older rat calm and occupied. Reassure her that she's still your family rat and very important to you. In the mean time work with your new rat to develop a good bond with her and make her feel welcome in your house.

Keep in mind your older rat isn't stupid and she has a great sense of smell and she's not going to be fooled into believing the new rat is gone, but she will calm down a bit with distance...

You are in a catch 22 If you introduce a female rat that is too young to an older rat, the older rat will try and kill it... the longer you keep your rats apart the more agitated your older rat will become. So you don't want to rush but you don't want to wait too long... 

When the time is right, there is usually a nasty brawl after which your girls will become the best of friends. This is just how these things work... Our rats are pretty much free range in the house and our last intro turned into 3 weeks of our big girl chasing after the little one and the two knocking things over pushing dishes off the counter and breaking every fragile thing in sight, then one day they had a brutal fight in a metal cabinet that lasted nearly an hour and when I looked in they were napping, snuggled up together and remained best friends for life. It can be an ugly process, but we've never lost a rat yet.

As I mentioned, I train true shoulder rats. This means we take our rats outdoors and they free range both outdoors and in the house... they eventually become very competent but our rats live a dangerous life style. Some times bad things happen and rats get injured, killed or lost. Again it's the nature of rats. You can keep your rats safe in the cage, but they will have a terrible quality of life, or you can give them a more exciting life, but they run the risks of getting crushed in doors, stepped on in the dark, sat on, getting their tails squished by chairs with wheels or rocking chairs, getting picked off by predators or larger pets, eating poison plants or finding rat bait stations... The list goes on. Just about all of our true shoulder rats have survived injuries, a couple didn't... In time you get better at spotting trouble before it happens and in time your rats become more competent at protecting themselves. When you screw up and a rat get's killed, it's always hard. It breaks your hear in ways hard to describe and yes you do feel guilty, but living in a cage is no life for an intelligent inquisitive animal. Just commit yourself to do better next time.

This is Fuzzy Rat way up in a tall tree...








This is Max doing a meet and greet at the town fair...









And this is Amelia lounging in the safety of a small tree at the safe site...








Unlike Fuzzy Rat and Max... Amelia wasn't up to dangerous adventures... she found herself somewhere relatively safe and planted herself there.... She was nobody's fool and wasn't going to get herself killed.

Both Fuzzy Rat and Max survived some pretty serious injuries, but they lived far more exceptional lives than Amelia.. all three rats died of mammary tumors. Fuzzy Rat, the most competent and outgoing of the group actually lived the longest. 

If you want to give your rats a life worth living, you have to take a few risks, sometimes things go wrong... sometimes terribly wrong... But they are rats, and bad things happen to wild rats too... Short exciting lives is what a rat's life is all about. That's the nature of the animal and that's not your fault.

Best luck.

P.S. Fuzzy Rat and Max were true shoulder rats, trained at a 40 acre safe site and both passed a series of extreme tests. We are experienced rat trainers and handlers and our rats have lots of experience before they are allowed to free range outdoors or travel with us. Both they and us survived a steep learning curve to do what we did together. Please don't just take your rats outside and get them killed or lost. Because there's nothing safe about being a true shoulder rat.. it's all about managing risk. If you want your rats to have a great life you have to take certain risks, but you can't be reckless. Even when you do everything right bad things happen, when you screw up the odds go against you very quickly.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Well, Rat Daddy, thank you for your post. I read it last night, and freaked out a bit. As I've said before, this is causing me some stress, and wish I could relax about the issue.

My daughter, bless her little heart, has agreed to keep the new rat in the hallway right outside her door, but I'm not totally in favor of that idea. There's a lot of noise and traffic during the day, but I'm hoping it's better than being directly in her room where Angel plays. Angel was definitely more relaxed and being more like her old self when Crystal was out of the room. Angel DID however know exactly where the new rat was, because she would go to the door, sniff under it and turn around; but she wasn't preoccupied with "the invader." Somebody please tell me that's a good sign.

Rat Daddy, what do you think about having them trade cages a few times a day for a week or so? I was planning on using this plan for introduction: Introducing Rats at Fat Rat Central, which uses the cage exchange method during part of the process. After a week of cage exchanges, we were going to the neutral territory introduction with no cages. Based on how Angel and her recently departed sister, Lilly, went at it, I fully expect some loud brawling. I just want Crystal to be able to withstand it; Angel is a big girl. The step after that is the meet in the playroom scenario. I guess I goofed this up letting Crystal play in there for the past week, but maybe the rattie gods will be kind to me.

I am very grateful for all of the advice you've given. It's helped me to cope with this. What I really want is just a plan to follow, so I can put my emotional energies where they belong.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The plan is when the time is right your girls are going to have a knock down drag out fight, then they will become best friends if they don't kill each other. (which by the way almost never happens)

Rats aren't stupid, spraying them with perfume or cage swapping so they get each other scent really doesn't convince your old rat that your new rat is a long term friend...

I mean if your mom brought a new girl to breakfast wearing your old clothes and introduced the new girl as your sister who has been living with you all your life and you just never noticed, you wouldn't buy it either. I try to do intros in my immersion space a/k/a hallway where I can break things up, but I've had a few get away from me and take place under the furniture or most recently all over the house... The carrier method has potential once your new rat is old enough to defend herself.

I've done great intros, and some really rough ones and they have all worked out, but I don't generally write the how toos on this topic. But I will say that most of the voodoo involved in some of the complex methods is for the benefit of the stressed out humans not the rats....

You can swap cages, drop vanilla all over your rats, paint your toenails green or dance naked under the full moon... whatever makes you personally feel better but your rats are going to fight and become best friends. Sometimes it's 5 minutes of mock combat and it's over and sometimes it's an out of control disaster... It depends on the rats.

Keeping rats near each other but apart tends to make things worse, and if one girl is too young it's a disaster, some people put the rats in a partially filled bathtub to give them something other than fighting to worry about, but overall you can make things worse, but aside from being there with thick gloves to break up the fight if things get too violent you really can't help. And breaking up the fights can actually make intros take longer...

When you have done as many as I have, you sort of get a feel for when to cut in and when to stand back. You also get some confidence that things will work out... mostly because they almost always do work out. But I've never had two intros look anything alike so I don't have a good cookbook recipe guaranteed for success. I've tried several approaches and in the end it comes down to the rats working it out for themselves.

The best reassurance I can give you is that 90% of the time introductions have a happy ending. If you are one of those folks that gets fixated on the other 10% then you can try cage swaps or dancing naked under the full moon, it might help you relax and meet neighbors you didn't even know before.. Mostly they don't hurt so do them if they make you feel better. Just don't think you are fooling your rats.


Best luck.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

UPDATE!
It's been about a month since we acquired our new rat. We did the intro steps we read about, helped our resident rat chill out a bit by moving the new rat to new room. and even did some naked moonlight dancing:wink:. We began the formal intros this week.

First intro went as expected. They sniffed, and then, after a while, the brawling began. At first it was a few flip overs & power grooming. It didn't take long for the actual fighting to ensue. It was ALL about dominance! When Crystal, the newbie, would crawl over Angel, it took about five seconds for Angel to respond with an attack. But much to my surprise, Crystal was not as submissive as expected. She did submit most of the time, however she actually flipped Angel and held her down once! Angel took care of that real quick!

We threw a towel over them and pulled them apart only when the "fight ball" turned into hyper speed mode. But we just put them back on the bed and waited. The fights kept coming.

After about twenty minutes, or when Crystal would just hide & not come out, we put them back together and waited for a positive interaction. Then we took them back to neutral cages. 

We're going to keep doing this in different rooms of the house for this week. At some point we'll have to move to the playroom, and then, the cage.

What I really want to know is, does this sound normal? Like I said, we are only interfering if the fight gets super-crazy, but we don't break them up every time they are fighting and squealing. Crystal is pretty stressed, after all, she's new and alone in her cage right now. Angel, too, did her share of hiding after a few of the 

As for me, I'm a lot less stressed. Thanks for telling it like it is.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, you're doing fine. Now you have to decide are your rats real biting or mock biting. Is there blood and soft tissue damage or isn't there? If no one is getting hurt, it may look extreme, but it's mock fighting.... So you can let go farther until someone more or less wins... Try to provide some cover and some obstacles so the lesser rat has some running room if she needs it.

As my last intro was done free range, I watched the battle move around the house... First they fought for my office, then my big girl Max conceded the office territory and they stopped fighting there, then they brawled over the bathroom, then the kitchen and then finally the smaller rat invaded Max's private metal cabinet, she got her ear slashed for that, but in the dark amidst squeaking and squealing things suddenly got quiet and the two curled up and fell asleep together. The ear is still split. It was a bazaar three week process, but it's the second intro that wound up in the same cabinet that ended that way.

At first I started out pretty much hands on, but then I realized there were lots of sharp teeth and claws thrashing around and no blood... That's when I finally got that the combat was ritual and not actual which gave me the confidence to give them more space to work out their issues. And yes the final battles are always at hyper rat speed and just out of your reach under something.

Ideally, with girls you don't get the same social structure as with boys, girls will always squabble occasionally and as the top girl ages the younger one will become more pushy. When Max got mammary tumors and got weaker, Cloud started pushing her away from the food and out of the choice sleeping spot. Overall they stayed best friends, but the dynamic was changing. Max was still large enough not to get abused, but on occasion when I responded to a squeak for help, it was her that was squeaking. Max ascended to her top rat status by standing up to an aging rat three times her size, and there was quite a bit of blood drawn and some nasty bite wounds. She was strong and stubborn, watching the dynamic change again was hard.... It only took a few weeks as Max got sick fast until Cloud was pretty much doing as she pleased and is became top rat. So although your rats will be best friends to the end, expect some infighting, some squabbles and things to change as your rats age, even when they all sleep together in a ball. Girl rats have complex "little" minds racing a mile a minute, they are always competing with or testing each other just a little and seem to derive pleasure in poking at each other's pride or perceived status, but unlike boys girls make it more of a game or just keep it more civil.

No one is getting hurt, so your still on track. And if the naked moonlight dancing helps, by all means keep it up. If I had to, and for fun, I suppose I could argue there's a tradition for it. Historically the first European accounts of rats as pets were as familiars of witches. And we all know that witches were known for dancing naked under the full moon... Maybe they were just introducing new rats to their packs and the inquisitors just didn't understand... Still always best to avoid mobs with torches and pitchforks, just in case.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Well, what can I say to you all to express my thanks? Today, we let the girls out together in the ratty playroom, and they did great. A few squabbles, but definitely mock fighting. Angel had a tiny bit of a scratch on her nose and Crystal had a small scratch on the back of her neck, but honestly, they look like accidents. So I went for broke and completely cleaned the resident cage. I mean I scrubbed the **** out of it. We had purchased a bunch of new stuff for the cage in the event we moved them in together, so we rearranged everything, threw out the old huts and put in the new pirate ship hammock, new toys, new bedding... the works. I did put Crystal's hut from her cage in case she needs refuge. They're not best buds yet, but there has been a little bit of grooming. We let them run around for hours before putting them in the cage, so they should be very tuckered out. Hopefully, they'll be snoozing together shortly. Here's a few cute pics.

Here they are in the newly decorated cage.








Here's the new home.








My daughter and her girls.










Drinking water at the "pool."


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

So happy for your girls, ratties and human.


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## Terjan (Jan 30, 2015)

Two nights of quiet sleep together. They're all snuggled up cozy like. I'm very thanful to you all!

On a side note, Crystal has taken a shine to me. When I walk in the room, she climbs up my body and plants herself on my shoulder. She then licks my cheek and burrs in my ear. Then she snuggles in my hair and will stay there. I can walk around the house, talk on the phone, fold laundry, and she'll just hang out right on my shoulder. I love it.

Rat Daddy - you CRACK ME UP! Thanks to your posts, I am so much more relaxed. The rats are having the time of their lives now! I don't have to keep them caged so much now that they can roam together. 

They still squabble but nothing serious. They are both visibly so much happier. And so am I!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When you are relaxed your rats will be more relaxed. And the object of immersion theory is to create a genuine mixed rat and human family where your rats become competent in your home either with minimal or no supervision at all depending on the rat. But it's most fun when your rats love to be with you and hang out with you. So it looks like my work is done.

There was once a truly amazing rat, Fuzzy Rat, she taught us all about rats and a whole lot about humans and she could do her own intros in under 15 minutes... Oddly she rarely won a rat fight, but she could outsmart every other rat by using her superior intellect and playing the game superbly. It was perhaps random luck that we opened that feeder rat bin that day, where she found us. She insisted on coming home with us and the rest is history. But she taught me what was possible because of her remarkable ability to understand us, and to become understood and her determined insistence on it. 

Fuzzy Rat lived a truly amazing life, she was a true shoulder rat, she met and entertained hundreds if not more children and adults, she appeared at handicapped children's events, and she brought joy to kids with little to be happy about and she even befriended an outlaw motorcycle organization. She swam in clear mountain lakes and climbed tall trees and she ran away to explore on her own and always came back. She lead groups of teenagers on walks around the park evenings and she was every bit a part of our family. Very few rats live this kind of a life, but she taught us what was possible. 

I'm not encouraging other people to take crazy risks with their rats, like perhaps we did, I just want people to think outside the cage, open their minds and let their rats amaze them too. Once you see just how special and attached to you your rats are everything changes... well, I suppose you've already figured that out on your own by now...

Best luck.

PS If you ever take your rats outside to dance under the moonlight with you just watch out for owls.... but that's another story... for another day...


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