# Misty Blue Rattery



## Hal900x (Sep 16, 2015)

http://mistyblue.weebly.com/

Anyone familiar with this breeder? It's in a private home and you are not allowed to view the facility. That makes me more than a little nervous. Unless I can see the facility I have no idea what kind of conditions they are raised in, but the page seems pretty legit. It's quite close to me which is great, but...

iirc the page used to suggest meeting the breeder in a park nearby. Just weird to me.


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## Asiposea (Dec 16, 2016)

Quite a few breeders have closed ratteries. This may sound suspect, but breeders don't want anything you might carry in to harm their precious mischief. But I do think it's very reasonable to ask for a picture of their setup.


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## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

I don't think there's much money in breeding rats for the pet trade so a lot of breeders are basically hobbyists. Besides concerns over the possibility of strangers bringing infections into their breeding facilities, inviting strangers into your house isn't the safest thing to do, generally speaking. I can definitely understand the decision to be a closed rattery. I'd probably do the same if I was running a rattery from my home. I've met breeders in parking lots and I've purchased rats from "breeder's" basements. Being allowed into a breeder's home isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

If you're curious about Misty Blue's breeding set-up, it never hurts to ask lots of questions.


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## Asteria (Jul 6, 2016)

It's not suspicious, it's quite the opposite. Every responsible breeder I know has a closed rattery. Usually they should have a picture of their setup on their website, but if they don't you should just be able to message them.

I've heard of people who allowed their customers to visit their rattery only to have rats stolen. There is also the risk of spreading diseases like Sendai/SDA which can wipe out their entire colony.


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Sky blue is not a color of fur


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## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Rattielover965 said:


> Sky blue is not a color of fur


Actually, AFRMA recognizes it as a coat color of rats. It's the third color from the bottom on here:
http://www.afrma.org/ratselfs.htm


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## Rattielover965 (Apr 26, 2016)

Sabatea said:


> Actually, AFRMA recognizes it as a coat color of rats. It's the third color from the bottom on here:http://www.afrma.org/ratselfs.htm


sorry, I was looking at the American rat club.


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## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

It's not anything to be suspicious over, it's quite the opposite. Most breeders have closed ratteries. It's always a massive concern that someone could unknowingly bring an infection into the rattery that could be potentially fatal to the rats, especially if they already have rats at home. There is also the possibility of someone stealing rats, god knows why. My rattery is semi-closed. I do let people into my home to view and pick up their babies, however I don't let them into my rat room or any room that's not my lounge for that matter. I'm always happy to send people photos of my setup should they be requested. Most of us have families and other pets, so trailing strangers around my house would be a pain in the bum for everyone else living with me, amongst the concern for the safety of my rats. Misty blue being a closed rattery is no concern, however I've had a look at the website and there are a few things that strike me as unusual. For starters, "sky blue" is not a variety of rat. Being a knowledgable breeder, she'd know that. She also states that she has no contracts to sign. Every breeder I know, myself included, have a contract that needs signing before letting rats leave with you. Even if it's just the most basic of basic stating what she expects from you as a rat owner and what you should expect from her, there should be some sort of contract in place. I also don't care for her demeanour when stating "ALL SALES FINAL". Any good breeder would be willing to negotiate on the matter should it come to it, if you for any reason needed to return your rats. I can understand no refunds, but her blunt tone makes it seem as though she wouldn't even be willing to take rats back should it be needed with no charge, I could of course be wrong, it just appears that way. This might just be me, because I don't run my waiting list this way, but the fact that she charges you a non refundable fee to be on the waiting list, with the additional charge of £70 of your rats, is utterly ridiculous to me. I don't want to make a judgement, but something seems a bit off. I don't know the breeder personally, in fact I'm not familiar with many USA breeders so maybe ask around other ratteries in the area for a reference. Don't be scared to question her, interrogate her in fact. I, amongst many other breeders, love when people want to know every in and out of our rattery, it shows that you're really dedicated to where your babies come from.


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## Ratologist (Nov 24, 2016)

It's a nice website, but I lot of things seem kind of "off." Here are a few flags for me:



> MBLU Rats are guaranteed healthy for 14 days after purchase. During the Guarantee period if the rat becomes ill, send MBLU a small video and/or email with description of symptoms. If needed, MBLU will supply basic antibiotics at no cost to the client. MBLU is NOT a vet but does have a lot of experience in pocket pet medical care.


Is that even legal? To advertise that you'll supply antibiotics after receiving an email or video of symptoms?

It costs money to be on the waiting list, but:


> This list has no time frame and no guarantee of fulfillment. Requests not filled by June 30th or Dec 31st will be contacted to either stay on the waiting list or receive a credit from MBLU toward any product or rats.


Then there's this:


> MBLU rats are very sweet by nature. They are not "trained tame" by excess handling. Each litter is checked daily starting on their first day of life. At about two weeks of age, I start handling them 10-15min every few days as a litter. I do not handle them enough for them to bond with me, this helps with them bonding to you after purchase.


I have never, ever heard of a breeder of any kind of social animal that does *not* handle the animal. In no way would this insure that the animal bonds better with its new owner. Social critters need to socialize. Dogs. Cats. People. Rats. 

In addition, the rat guide page recommends that new owners and people with children under 13 only get female rats, stating that male rats are better for more experienced owners...seemingly because of aggression issues, though that's only implied. I've never heard that anywhere else. 

Sooooo...yeah...some things seem kinda strange about this breeder. I definitely wouldn't give money to a breeder with no guarantee of actually getting anything and a no refund policy. That seems like a scam.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

She is a great breeder, well known in the rat community. Thumbs up!

As others have said sky blue is a color of rat. She is active with AFRMA and that is the standard she uses. Different clubs have different names like silvermane vs d'argent. I use AFRMA standards myself.

Not having a contract is not a red flag at all. By far most breeders I know do not use contracts. Why waste paper? It is nearly impossible to use legally it just makes people feel better. But there is no purpose beyond that. I talk to people who I sell to and make sure we are on the same page before selling to them so why go an extra step? It is personal preference.

She is an amazing breeder with show quality rats, people beat down her door to get her rats so I can see why she has her waitlist as such and her prices. That is not a red flag either. That may not be for everyone looking for rats. If you are not looking for something of that quality you may choose a different breeder. Nothing strange about that. 


As for closed rattery, I posted this on your other post but will repeat it here for others reading 

Strange as it may seem the truth is by far most responsible breeders have a closed rattery from their home. I am closed myself.

Honestly I would not trust an open rattery at all. Letting people in, is a HUGE red flag for me.

It is not about hiding anything. It is about the safety of our rats. 

There are some very dangerous and even deadly viruses that are easily spread. It is the whole reason new rats should ALWAYS be quarantined before being placed with our other rats. If you allow people to enter that defeats the entire purpose of quarantine. People can carry viruses and even parasites (like fleas/lice) on their clothing. 

http://ratguide.com/health/basics/quarantine.php

Someone comes in and spreads something to my rats, it could mean expensive vet bills to treat them all. Most breeders do not have just a couple rats. Some meds are harder to treat for babies/pregnant/nursing moms as well. Some viruses could mean death or illness that would remove them from being bred. 

I could not only lose my beloved rats but the lines I have worked very very hard to create. 

It would be insanely risky to allow people inside. Honestly any breeder who does so is foolish IMO, I would not trust that their rats are healthy at all because they could not guarantee that. 

On top of that, this is our home. I have alot of other pets and I do not want to deal with people tracing in and out of my home either. This is our hobby our passion. But it is still our lives. 
How many horror stories I have heard where breeders were trashed because omg their dishes were dirty or something silly like that. Like yeah their home should be not a disgusting hoarders nest but it is lived in lol
There is also the issue of safety. 9 times out of 10 I meet adopters alone. People who know they can enter your house puts you at risk. Everyone remember the craigslist story where a woman met someone to sell baby clothes & they cut out her baby. That stuff happens. But also people could steal stuff. I always remember a story where a breeder let people in her house and while she was showing them one group of rats they stole others behind her back. People can appear safe and sane and not be....

One time I had a woman who wanted rats from me she asked about them and expressed interest. I sent her the links to my site and to fill out a form, she never did or replied. Weeks later she messages me asking for my address so she can come get them.... lol I told her they were already sold duh. She flipped out on me. Told me she didn't care & was going to come and get them. If she knew my address.... that might have ended badly.

People suck.


But beyond all that seeing the rats doesn't mean anything. People can clean and show you what they want. I have heard of people showing people their rats, while they had the majority of them in another room behind a closed door so no one could see the actual for real bad care they were giving sadly. 


What you want to look for is an open and honest breeder. They should be willing to share pics or even video perhaps, answer questions about their set up. Look at the pictures they do show. I always say if people are ok posting really dirty pics, it is a huge sign that they do not feel there is anything wrong with that and it is not a fluke but the norm


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## MRM (Dec 26, 2016)

This looks like a red flag to me: 
"*Refund/Return Policy:*
*MBLU does not offer refunds or returns as of Jan 1, 2017.
All Purchases are final.  *If you are no longer able to keep your rats, please find a friend to take them, search out a pocket pet rescue, or take them to a city/county animal control center."

I think it is wrong of them to suggest that someone who can no longer keep their rats should find a rescue to take them. The rescue community is already overwhelmed and certainly doesn't need a breeder suggesting that their buyers should add to it. The same thing goes for "take them to animal control"...yeah, because the chance of them making it out alive are just stellar (insert eye roll here)... 

That's just my opinion based on the website. I hate to pass judgement, but I just don't agree with their return policy AT ALL!



BearNecessities said:


> I don't know the breeder personally, in fact I'm not familiar with many USA breeders so maybe ask around other ratteries in the area for a reference. .


I agree with this BearNecessities. Hopefully someone on the forum will know more about them, and if not, try to find another rattery that knows them.


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## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

I'm not sure it's illegal in the states, incredibly irresponsible nonetheless. She's going to be making a diagnosis from a picture or a video, that IS illegal, especially when she has no qualifications to do so. Self diagnosing and dosing rats can be incredibly dangerous. She even states she's not a vet meaning she has no leg to stand on should something terrible happen to one of the rats she's sold should she give the owner an incorrect diagnosis or medication, if any of the rats that she's bred are ill then direct the new owner to a licensed veterinarian who can administer correct medication and doses. The whole "I do not handle my rats because I don't want them to bond to me so they'll bond better with you" made me snort. I have never heard anything so beyond idiotic in my life. All she's doing is charging an extortionate price for untamed and unsocialised rats. They need socialisation. All living beings do. Especially ones born to be sociable. Ugh. "New owners and children under 13 should only get females as males are for more experienced owners" I got my first rats when I was 4, they were boys. She talks absolute sh*te. It's implied due to aggression. Males will only inherit hormonal aggression should they be bred poorly. Her entire website is just one massive case built up against her dreadful breeding. Please do not give this breeder your money. Even if you do get babies out of it, I highly doubt they'll be of any decent quality, she has no idea what she's doing or saying. From what I can tell, it's a money making experience. "I breed blue rats so I can rip people off for them, they've had no handling, I openly admit they aren't tame, I'll feed you absolute rubbish information but my rats are blue so give me the best part of £80 including my fee of being on my ever so unpopular waiting list" the fact that she's got "I have 75 babies all available on the same day" written on her website yet only has 3 people on her waiting list says all I need to know.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> Is that even legal? To advertise that you'll supply antibiotics after receiving an email or video of symptoms?


Yes it is legal to give antibiotics. We can just buy them ourselves if we want. 

Personally I think people should take their rat to the vet, but if a rat just has a simple respiratory issue it is often easy to self treat and many owners do. it can safe the new owners money instead of visiting a vet to just get the meds and treat themselves. 




> I have never, ever heard of a breeder of any kind of social animal that does *not* handle the animal. In no way would this insure that the animal bonds better with its new owner. Social critters need to socialize. Dogs. Cats. People. Rats.
> 
> In addition, the rat guide page recommends that new owners and people with children under 13 only get female rats, stating that male rats are better for more experienced owners...seemingly because of aggression issues, though that's only implied. I've never heard that anywhere else.
> 
> Sooooo...yeah...some things seem kinda strange about this breeder. I definitely wouldn't give money to a breeder with no guarantee of actually getting anything and a no refund policy. That seems like a scam.



Actually I would say almost all responsible breeders either do not handle their babies at all or very little.

When we are breeding we really really want to look for natural temperament which is genetic. If we influence it by taming or trying to train socialization we are doing a huge disservice and are not going to be able to tell if it is natural or trained. A well bred rat with beautiful genetic temperament can not be handled at all as a baby and still when you handle it, be sweet, affectionate, and loving! 

If a breeder does over socialize their babies there is a HUGE issue where they can just be covering up bad temperament that may come up when it is no longer with the breeder. So an animal that is not naturally well tempered feels safe and calm in its home and around people it knows but remove that and it becomes a little scared thing or worse... I am not sure what she means about them bonding better because of it, unless she means this. IDK...

I know some of the most amazing breeders who do not handle them almost at all and have the best rats you can imagine. I do handle my babies but it is about walking a very careful line of not trying to socialize them.

I do not get why she thinks females are better for families with children. That seems backwards. I always suggest males for kids because they are larger and calmer. I would have to ask her to elaborate there...


I will say every breeder has to make their own policies for waitlists/refunds/sales. It is not easy dealing with people and is probably one of our biggest headaches as breeders lol 
Every breeder finds ways to make their wait list system easier on them and the buyers. 

She is one of the top breeders and has established good lines that are show quality. She probably gets an insane amount of people interested. And there are only so many litters and babies to go around. It sucks when people jump on your wait list and then go poof and it makes the entire list suffer and wastes time and is really annoying. It is why I no longer use waitlists. But for a breeder is demand as she, I can see where it is probably more fair for those looking for babies from her. 

I do not see it as a redflag at all, but definitely not for every type of buyer.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

BearNecessities can you please use enter to space out your text? It is really difficult to read it all in one big wall of text. 



Their refund policy is not good IMO. But as it just changed Jan 1... it could be related to seoul. There is much discussion on what breeders should be doing with our policies right now in relation to that. It makes things complicated for sure. If that is the reason, I wish she would explain that. If not then I do disagree


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## CorbinDallasMyMan (Feb 24, 2017)

moonkissed said:


> Their refund policy is not good IMO. But as it just changed Jan 1... it could be related to seoul.


Oh, yeah! I hadn't thought of that!

I've always liked the fact that some breeders request that, if you can no longer care for your rats, you return them to the breeder. I've always thought that this attitude displayed a true care for their animals. ...but now with Seoul, ratteries can't just be taking rats back in to their homes. It's not safe! Thanks for explaining that, moonkissed. And thanks for the explanation on the handling/socializing issue, as well.


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## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

I type it out with spaces, for some reason my posts don't actually stay in that format once posted, it might be because I'm using my phone, I'm not sure. It's a pain, sorry lol. I understand purchasing your own meds for something that can be simply diagnosed such as a URI. However, if the rat was to have something more severe than a respiratory issue and she was to diagnose through an image or video and the diagnosis was incorrect, it wouldn't end well. In that case, I don't think she should be offering to give a free diagnosis and medication judged by a still photo. Especially if someone is new to rats and thinks that's the best course of action because the breeder has said so. My babies are handled once daily from birth, which I think is an acceptable amount of handling, over handling can shadow their natural temperament however i couldn't imagine just leaving babies that need key human interaction to sit in their cage and get on with it until they're rehomed. I do think some of the things she's said are incorrect and will mislead prospective owners, such as if I don't handle them, they'll bond better to you. That one could be elaborated on a bit on her behalf, because I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. I also agree, males are a much better option for children. They're much sturdier and significantly calmer. As for the contract, I understand some people go down the path of a no sign contract and we all have our policies that we expect people to follow and in return we provide them with whatever policies we state. The lack of any sort of regulations does concern me as she doesn't seem massively bothered about where her babies end up once they're out of her care. I don't agree with her not taking babies back and suggesting putting them into the care of a rescue, especially with the high amount of rats needing homes already. She doesn't appear to vet her prospective owners, it's more a case of PayPal me £10 and you're on the list. I like to get to know all of my prospective homes thoroughly to make sure my babies are going to the best possible homes and guide anyone who may need to make some improvements or need some information. I couldn't imagine just letting them go to anyone who enquires without approving them. I gave up on my waiting list along time ago, the amount of people who just pie you off its not worth the bother. If you want to wait for a litter or a specific pairing then okay, by all means I'll have your details but I run on first come first serve. Saves waiting for replies from people who are no longer interested when there's people further down the list desperate for babies. I don't charge a fee for people waiting for babies, if I was to, it would be a percentage of the price of the rats as opposed to a seperate amount of money on top of the price of the babies, that might just be me that feels that way I don't know. I'm not sure how I feel about her having such a significant amount of babies all ready on the same day. I understand we all occasionally have a few litters at one time but not to the extent of producing 75 babies all ready at once. That's not me bashing her breeding by any means, the babies may be of good quality. However, that is an excessive amount of babies to have at one time. As I said, I don't know her. I'm going solely on the information provided on her website, some of which is questionable. We all have our own ways of running our individual ratteries, that's what makes it fun, learning things from other breeders and giving our own views to others. I do think her site is slightly blunt and some of her points could be further elaborated. Obviously, you know her personally so you've been able to justify some of her actions, however myself and others that have posted on this thread have had to base our judgments on the little information provided which is where our misinterpretations have come from. To anyone else looking through her site without knowing the reasoning behind some of her choices may also make similar judgements. I guess it all boils down to our individual ways of running everything. It's upto the buyer to make the decision on whether or not that's the way they wish to purchase their rats. We don't have the Seoul virus in the UK, I've read up on it just incase it was to spread. If it's possible that the rats may be at risk for the virus, instead of continuing breeding and selling babies just to refuse to take them back should they get poorly, she should have ideally closed her rattery temporarily. If that is the reason for her no returns policy, that is. If that's her general rule of thumb, then I also do disagree with that


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

CorbinDallasMyMan said:


> Oh, yeah! I hadn't thought of that!
> 
> I've always liked the fact that some breeders request that, if you can no longer care for your rats, you return them to the breeder. I've always thought that this attitude displayed a true care for their animals. ...but now with Seoul, ratteries can't just be taking rats back in to their homes. It's not safe! Thanks for explaining that, moonkissed. And thanks for the explanation on the handling/socializing issue, as well.


np!

I think it is one reason so many of us breeders are still closed. It is kindof like eh what do we do now? 

It puts us in a really bad situation. Some breeders are not having an easy time testing so they might not be able to test returned rats + it could mean it spends a long time alone. If they have anyone in their home who is at risk like with a compromised immune system, even in quarantine it could just be too risky for them to consider. 
Some are saying they would just help the person find it a new home, but helping while it is not tested could still pose some ethical questions. And if someone has to rehome it asap, that might be hard.

Hopefully it rarely if ever comes up but ugh. It is going to take some thoughts on policies for sure.



> I type it out with spaces, for some reason my posts don't actually stay in that format once posted, it might be because I'm using my phone, I'm not sure. It's a pain, sorry lol.​


ah I'm sorry lol 

I'm not her friend or know her that well, just that she posts in breeder groups and seems knowledgeable. I know she is highly involved in showing and such. She can be very blunt lol 

I definitely don't agree or wouldn't do everything she does. But I do think she has good rats and is a good breeder from all I have heard.

Does she say she has 75 babies at once? I didn't see that, that is alot lol


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## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

It's a tricky one, I suppose. If people have purchased rats from her and can vouch for them then it's a slightly different story. But her site does paint a different picture. I'm sure it's on the available page, I'll attach a screenshot. It is a lot of babies to handle at one time, I salute her for that!


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## Asiposea (Dec 16, 2016)

Given the current situation, I see her policy of not taking in unwanted rats as protection for her own rattery. If her rats were purchased and housed with other rats that were infected and then she took them back, that would really be terrible. She may have encountered even problems with people dropping off rats that had simple problems like mites or lice but could still be difficult to deal with. If I had to miss a show because my rats were sick/ill/infected from taking in unwanted rats...that would make me rethink my policy.


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## katorres (Feb 24, 2017)

I just wanted to pop in and second MBLU's good reputation. She is a very good breeder and every other breeder I've gotten rats from has gotten rats from her or learned from her. I don't have rats from her myself--part of the reason being she truly had my own rat's best interest in mind when she told me not to wait for one of her babies, but instead to get my single rat a companion as soon as I could. She's very knowledgeable and informative and I agree, her policies are more for protecting her rats at home than anything else. She has a huge number of rats on her property at all times. They're very well cared for and she's very well known.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

BearNecessities said:


> It's a tricky one, I suppose. If people have purchased rats from her and can vouch for them then it's a slightly different story. But her site does paint a different picture. I'm sure it's on the available page, I'll attach a screenshot. It is a lot of babies to handle at one time, I salute her for that!


That is alot of rats. 

But I can't judge on that alone, what is alot to one is nothing to another I guess lol. Her area is pretty big on pet rats and showing so there may be more interest as well. 

I had three litters at once and was like omg so many babies! lol But I know people who look at how many rats I have and think it is insane so...

But looking at the date I wonder, because in April we have several big events where breeders often meetup and sell to each other. I know many breeders who were expecting to go to them and bred much larger amounts of rats then usual because of it. And now will not be going because of seoul. I am not sure if that is the case at all. But a possibility.


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## Okeedoke22 (Dec 31, 2016)

> I type it out with spaces, for some reason my posts don't actually stay in that format once posted, it might be because I'm using my phone, I'm not sure.


I have this same issue. I use my Ipad and Iphone at home. It always combines my paragraphs. Its annoying to say the least. I found a solution though. If you type it out then post. You can edit and for some reason when you add spaces in edit it works. Hope this helps. 

As far as return policy Seoul Virus has obviously affected many ratteries and that could be a reason. I trust Moonkissed so I would think she is reputable but if she did not answer this post and I just read website I wouldn't assume she was a top notch breeder. I will say I know the virus is new and policies need to be reformed but I hate how she words it on her website. I totally understand Bearnecessities reaction to that policy. Moonkissed did mention she is blunt so that could be a reason. Some people just love a straight forward person and others not so much. 

I think the biggest thing we have to remember with websites is they are Rat breeders. They do not have public relations and sometimes a person is just terrible at writing but could still be an amazing breeder. Especially since when we write/read these posts we don't get emotion from it. This is tough time for a breeder. Even if they test negative and have a litter they can't stand by their normal policies. Maybe she can hire me to improve her website. lol. Sarcasm I suck at writing myself.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I personally would be uncomfortable dealing with a rattery that had 75 babies on the ground at once. Her policy may not be to handle them until 4-5 weeks of age (NOT a fan of this, I really truly don't believe in natural temperament being the end-all be-all like the fad is in AUS (it has trickled to North America now). Every rat needs to be socialized and I actually do the majority of my work on my rescue babies before their eyes open. I handle them, dangle them, lay them on their back, pretend to check their mouths, teeth, ears, pull on paws and tails (gently of course) so they are bomb-proof for when a vet or their owner may need to handle them this way in the future. This gives them the best chance of staying in their forever home and being confident happy adults. Once those baby eyes open all they want to do is play and explore.  Isn't part of the fun of having babies is to play with them every once in awhile? 

I have no issues with a closed rattery and actually wish more rescues were closed as well, as we take even more chances then most with viruses etc.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

lilspaz68 said:


> I personally would be uncomfortable dealing with a rattery that had 75 babies on the ground at once. Her policy may not be to handle them until 4-5 weeks of age (NOT a fan of this, I really truly don't believe in natural temperament being the end-all be-all like the fad is in AUS (it has trickled to North America now). Every rat needs to be socialized and I actually do the majority of my work on my rescue babies before their eyes open. I handle them, dangle them, lay them on their back, pretend to check their mouths, teeth, ears, pull on paws and tails (gently of course) so they are bomb-proof for when a vet or their owner may need to handle them this way in the future. This gives them the best chance of staying in their forever home and being confident happy adults. Once those baby eyes open all they want to do is play and explore.  Isn't part of the fun of having babies is to play with them every once in awhile?
> 
> I have no issues with a closed rattery and actually wish more rescues were closed as well, as we take even more chances then most with viruses etc.


Genetic temperament is a real thing  Babies really truly should not need to be socialized. It is not a fad but a very important role in breeding.
Ofcourse it makes sense that it is different in rescues because there is likely not to be good genetic history for them  

It is different with bred rats & when you have to choose the best rats to carry on you do not want to influence their temperament so that they are all seem friendly and it hides natural pure temperament. Because then you will just be going in circles breeding crappy bad genetic temperament rats.

There is more to it then just being friendly in the moment. Genetic temperament is also related to things like hormonal issues leading to males with hormonal aggression or moms with maternal aggression. Both you do not want to ever see. Plus issues that can come up with anxious moms and such. And as I mentioned before it can cover up issues where a rat has been trained to be friendly/feel safe in their home/environment/with you, but then if you put them into a new home with new people it could lose all of that. 

The proof is in the breeders. I can take two litters from completely different lines handle them each the exact same amount, do every single thing the same and they will be completely different temperament wise!

Part of being a breeder is putting the big picture first and resisting the urge to play with the babies lol 

For myself personally I do handle my babies. I love babies. But I do not handle them all that much really, newer lines even less so. I am very careful not to train socialization or any of that. It is this very careful line that I have to be careful of. And when you haven't handled them and then just reach in to a bunch of babies that just naturally want attention and love it is amazing. I can pick up an adult rat & still get a perfect tuck, flip it over and kiss its belly without ever having trained it to be used to that. It is a great feeling! But at the same time once a line is strongly established from generations and generations of ideal lovely babies there is less reason to be so careful as you know what to expect.


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## Spacey (Jan 24, 2017)

While I cannot say too much at this point, I did purchase 2 male rats from this breeder recently. I've had no issues so far. The rats have been cheery, social, and appear to be in good health. The breeder seemed knowledgeable and passionate when we met.

That said, I do understand some of the concerns about policies and things of that nature. I also understand breeders' concerns for rat safety and such. I think it is acceptable and valid that different rat owners/buyers will be comfortable with different things.


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