# Question about a problem with my rat's tail.



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

The tip of my rats tail (about 2-3 inches) has gotten rock hard. Its stuck in a slightly curled position and it feels like hard plastic. Its almost like you could just snap it right off. It still has fur and skin in this area. It doesn't seem to be causing him pain.

A little history, he and his cage mate were sick a couple weeks ago. I think they both had wet tail. This rat had lots of diarhea but after the wet tail treatment he was all cleared up. His cagemate died. Could this be some kind of after effect of the wet tail? He's a pretty old rat, but he seems to be completely healthy now. His teeth are fine, his fur is nicely groomed. His behaviour and attitude are normal. 

Any help would be nice. thanks.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

monstrmac1 said:


> The tip of my rats tail (about 2-3 inches) has gotten rock hard. Its stuck in a slightly curled position and it feels like hard plastic. Its almost like you could just snap it right off. It still has fur and skin in this area. It doesn't seem to be causing him pain.
> 
> A little history, he and his cage mate were sick a couple weeks ago. I think they both had wet tail. This rat had lots of diarhea but after the wet tail treatment he was all cleared up. His cagemate died. Could this be some kind of after effect of the wet tail? He's a pretty old rat, but he seems to be completely healthy now. His teeth are fine, his fur is nicely groomed. His behaviour and attitude are normal.
> 
> Any help would be nice. thanks.


Well considering rats do not get wet tail, I wonder if the treatment hurt your other rat? What did you use? What were the symptoms? Did you feed a lot of different foods in the previous few days to cause the diarrhea? Does he still have it? As for his tail, is it warm or cold? Is there blood flow, does it look normal? Any swelling?

How old is your remaining rat? 

Also, I hope you start looking for a vet that cares for rats instead of store-bought treatments. Rats need vets, there's no if's, and's or but's about it. They are prone to certain illnesses and even though they are inexpensive to get, they can cost a lot to keep properly.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Rats can and do get wet tail. All pet rodents can get wet tail. There is an over the counter wet tail treatment that vets recommend for the condition, and it works. Not only does it work, but it did work in this case. Regardless of that, my rat's condition is probably unrelated to wet tail.

So if there's anyone out there who _actually_ knows something, please let me know.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

rats _don't_ get wet tail. thinking that shelagh (lilspaz) knows nothing... just shows that YOU know nothing LOL. if you want to come here and start mouthing off our members, you will find yourself banned. i don't recommend it.

rats can certainly get diarrhea... but wet tail itself is something hamsters get, and hamsters only. i would not advocate giving a medication designed specifically for another animal (be it hamsters, ferrets, whatever) to a rat. especially one you can buy in a pet store.

diarrhea can come and go every once in a while... it can also be caused by many things such as a poor diet or diet changes, excess of watery and/or high fiber foods like baby food, fresh fruits and veggies, etc. (especially if given to rats who are not used to eating such foods) or a different kind of illness such as internal parasites. some antibiotics that mess with gut flora (such as amoxicillin) commonly cause it as well. live culture yogurt or things like benebac may help clear it up. lots of extra fluids are given to prevent dehydration.

how long did their diarrhea persist? true problematic diarrhea is pretty much straight liquid, persisting over many days.

before we can continue to help you, you need to help us by answering the questions asked above. it is hard to say what's going on with his tail without seeing pictures or knowing more information.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Do you have anything other than conjecture to support your claim that rats don't get wet tail? I'm a long time rat owner, and have known many others who are long time rat owners. I've never heard anyone say that rats don't get wet tail. When you get medicine for wet tail, it even lists directions for rats.

Regardless, we're talking about a tail-tip turning rock hard. If that is related I'd be surprised.

Threatening to ban me is childish. All I did, and am doing, is disputing a claim. Using "LOL" in a post where you are insulting me, is also childish.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

admittedly, i've never owned hamsters, and i didn't know much about wet tail until i spoke to my vet about it a few weeks ago. i had a boy with a uti, and the medication he was on (erythromycin) was giving him severe chronic diarrhea. i did a phone consult with my vet, where i stupidly asked if the diarrhea he had would _give_ him wet tail (not knowing it worked the other way around). she explained to me that it's an overgrowth of bacteria in the stomach/intestines that causes the diarrhea. further google searching told me it's specifically ecoli and campylobacter (sp?) and that theoretically it can be caught by rats but doesn't cause the same side effects. i'm also a member of a lot of other big rat forums including goosemoose and ratshack, and i have looked at the other discussions involving chronic diarrhea, and not once has wet tail been suggested, and everyone that has questioned whether their rat has it has been told it's not possible. either way, if it's not relevant, it doesn't matter.

i was not insulting or threatening you, just reminding you that you will not be much welcome here if you are insulting the knowledge of one of our most helpful and respected users in your first few posts. you cannot ask for help and advice from others if you are going to be close minded to their answers. rudeness will not make anyone feel inclined to help you.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The tail concerns me less than your lack of knowledge and home treatment for a condition rats do not get.

http://www.vetbase.co.uk/information/wet-tail-hamsters.php

http://ratguide.com/ (try to find wet tail in there anywhere as a bacterial ailment)

Wet tail is caused by a bacteria that only hamsters get infected with, and it kills rapidly.

Scours is diarrhea in calves that is caused by another bacteria, so the point I am trying to make is that each animal has its own issues. Contagions between animals aren't that common for the bacterial sicknesses, there are some viruses and some ectoparasites that can transfer.

Rats get diarrhea from diet, and endoparasites (internal like pinworms, round worms etc)...to treat that you can go to a vet, test a stool sample for parasites but if the animal seems healthy and active, it may just be diet or an upset tummy and you can give them short term some unsalted soda crackers or even put them on the BRAT diet (banana, rice, applesauce, and toast). I find malnourished nursing mom;s (I take in rescue rats) occasionally get diarrhea during their 1st to 2nd week of nursing. Another reason could be if you have or are medicating and the antibiotics have killed the good gut flora along with the bad bacteria. Then you would give a probiotic 2 hours outside of the administering the antibiotics.

Btw do you know how many products are listed for rats but are dangerous to them? Animal products like flea sprays, and OTC treatments are not regulated. I have heard too many times when a person used a flea product and the rat was poisoned and died from it. 

They have fear poop (loose smelly feces) when frightened but there is no bacteria involved.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Thats whats dangerous about making a claim. If users are being told its not possible their rat has wet tail, they deserve some reference. The medicine for wet tail, called "dri tail" says it "Treats wet tail and associated diarrhea problems in hamsters, gerbils, mice, rats, and guinea pigs". I have a different brand at home but it still says the same thing. The pet store where we bought our hamster, doesn't allow you to purchase a hamster without also purchasing wettail medicine. So it is more common in hamsters and very uncommon in rats. 

The reason I strongly believe it was wet tail is that I had a hamster with wet tail. My hamsters don't generally come into contact with the rats, but they use the same bedding and same food. So its possible they had a mutual contaminant. 

When my remaining hamster sees a rat she instantly lays on her back and starts chomping her jaws and sometimes nips them on the but. The rats are largely unphased so its pretty cute. 

http://www.amazon.com/Mardel-Dri-Tail-1-oz/dp/B0002RJMDC


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

ah man... a few years ago when i took miles in for his regular checkup for his chronic uri, the appointment before me had brought in two rats that had been sprayed with a flea and tick spray they bought at a pet store advertised for rats... one of the rats died on the table, and the other one had severely burned and scarred lungs and had to be kept overnight in an oxygen and nebulizing chamber. not sure what happened to that one, but it was AWFUL. 

if you can get us pictures of his tail, it would help us tremendously.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You would take the word of a manufacturer who adds in rats as an afterthought but doesn't specifically target them as the recipient of this medication? the mention is to get people to buy it who have other animals and put more money into their pockets. Would you buy a salt lick for your rat? Salt is very dangerous for rats, and their poor kidneys. Plus there's always enough salt in their staple diet. Yogurt Drops are another one made to fool the unsuspecting buyer. "Its yogurt, it has to be good for them...right?" No. It's pure sugar and fat. One yogie is like a chocolate bars to a child and just as healthy. OK lets try it this way...lets take the bacteria itself and research it.


Here is another brand of OTC drops

OASIS WET-TAIL DROPS are an effective liquid treatment for the condition commonly known as "wet tail". Wet tail is a stress induced diarrhea that is very dibilitating on the *hamster* and often fatal. Early diagnosis and intervention is the best course of curative action. See detailed disease description and instructions below.

These effective drops have the same antibiotic as the competing brand - and may be used in place of or in a continuation of treatment started with that brand. However - OASIS WET-TAIL DROPS have a palatable orange flavoring. *Hamsters* love the taste, and consume more treated water, increasing the odds of a successful cure. Its a matter of choice...and the *hamsters* choose OASIS WET-TAIL DROPS every time!
Safe for use with* hamsters* of all sizes and types, mice, rats, gerbils and guinea pigs. WET-TAIL DROPS come in a one ounce bottle,with a convenient dropper and detailed instruction sheet.


Ooh how about the Merck Veterinary Manual?

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171530.htm​


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

neomycin... hahahaha, that's basically feeding them neosporin.

anyways, understandable that it's used to treat wet tail and other similar ailments, but i would still insist that it was not the same bacteria (if present) that caused your rats' diarrhea. often it clears up on its own, and the medication could've just been coincidental, or just enough to kick whatever nasty bacteria (probably food-borne) they had in there. neomycin is one of those ones that's not actually absorbed into the bloodstream, but just flows through the digestive tract. i would say it was neither helpful nor harmful.

anyways, back to the tail, can you get pictures? my initial thought was it got caught in something or injured somehow and degloved or damaged, in which the tail would harden, darken and eventually fall off, but if there's still bloodflow and circulation it could be something else entirely.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

It appears we need to address an issue. I'm not a newcomer to rats. I provide good care for them. I don't give them salt licks, I don't give them yogurt drops. I do occasionally give them an unhealthy treat, but not enough to be of concern. 

All my rodents, and my sugar glider, have ample cage room. The rats and hamster use a dust-free scent-free, recycled newspaper bedding. The sugar glider is given calcium and vitamin supplements on a daily basis.

I had reliable information that wet tail drops were safe for all the rodents listed on the label. Its a tried and true medicine that is commonly used throughout the hamster world. 

It seemed reasonable to me that if one of my rats had every symptom of wet tail, only a short time after the hamster had it, then that rat may be suffering the same condition. It also seemed reasonable to treat it the same way.

The rat that died was very, very sick before any medication made it into the cage. It was also quite old, over 2 years. I had to trim his teeth and feed him soft foods. He continued to weaken and lose weight until he died. It all happened quite suddenly. It was near the end of that rat's life that the other rat began showing signs of wet tail. Pungent diarhea, lack of appetite, lethargy, ungroomed fur, weight loss. It occured to me after-the-fact that the other rat may have had the same problem but wasn't presenting the diarhea because he wouldn't eat. 

Like everyone, I beat myself up enough when a pet dies. I constantly second guess every decision I made. So I don't need to come to a forum to be second-guessed by others.

As for lilspaz, you obviously are passionate for your argument, but I'm not persuaded. Even if its an afterthought, I'm going to believe the claim of a manufacturer of pet medicines over an internet post or forum user. You would have to find something reliable, some scientific journal, that has went over the evidence and decided rats do not get wet tail. I haven't been able to find any such journal.

Jaguar's comment seems the most relevant. I could believe that it was some other bacterial infection that the neomyacin happened to be effective against. 

I'm at work now but I will try to get pics up by tomorrow. I'm not sure if you will be able to see much. Its still the same color and still has hair on it. Or at least it did when I left for work. Its got a slight permanent curl and a rock hard feel. If blood flow has stopped then it may have changed since I left home.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Have you ever gone to an exotic vet? Why not ask them?

I have a rat hospitalized for a rare condition right now (meningitis), he's had xrays, blood work, urinalysis, was put on antibiotics that cross into the CNS, had sub-q fluids, anti-seizure medication to save his life. Every day I have to hear if he's going to make it another day. I have been through enucleations, neuters, spays, e-spays, amputations (including a whole hind leg), radical new procedures, I can do a lot of the medical stuff at home, I run a rescue, and hearing that you treated your old rat at home, when he sounded terribly ill and never took him to a vet? That just makes me sad. There's terrible rat vets out there and I advise a lot of people, but obviously the companies that just want to make money off of you, are much more knowledgeable than a grown woman and her vet who have been to **** and back for these wonderful creatures for years.

Can't wait to hear your views on Rat Mills. Sigh. I give up. Jaguar can help you with the tail, I will help people who want my help.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

shelagh's point is that not everything marketed for small animals/rats is safe or healthy for them to use. many pine/cedar beddings are advertised as safe for rats, many horrible and potentially toxic seed mixes have pictures of rats on the bag, salt licks are advertised as a necessity for them... when, in fact, all of these things are very, VERY bad for rats. they don't care about the health or longevity of your pet - they just want your $$$. it is the same with most medications - you have to be really careful and read the label and be aware of what's in it. thankfully for you, neomycin is a fairly common antibiotic and seems safe for the rats. other antibiotics could have made it worse, like weak bird antibiotics that are often advertised for rats and small animals.

on another note, though, i can't seem to find any scientific journal that says rats CAN get wet tail, either. i trust ratguide.com's research - and if there's no mention of it on there, i think it is safe to say it doesn't happen.

do let us know how it looks when you get home, though. amputation might be necessary if the tail tip has "died"


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

lilspaz68 said:


> Ooh how about the Merck Veterinary Manual?
> 
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171530.htm​



In your attempt to condescend me, you may have actually uncovered some real information. The Merck medical manual says that there are more than one diarhea producing disease that is sometimes called "wettail". One of those is Tyzzer's disease. If you go over to the rat section, Tyzzer's disease is also listed.

Since this is commonly called wet tail, it seems reasonable that you have proved the existence of wet tail in rats. 

Thanks!


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

i think that just means that sometimes people call tyzzers wet tail. it's caused by a completely different bacteria. i've heard of tyzzers before, with horses.



> The cause is Clostridium piliforme (previously Bacillus piliformis ), a motile, filamentous, gram-negative, sporeforming, obligate, intracellular bacterium.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Lilspaz, you make no sense. You are arrogant and condescending in every sentence you write. Your immense experience doesn't make you right in this subject. Obviously the idea of not being right is a huge threat to your ego. 

I am willing to admit that I may not be right, but you are instantly offended. 

It also says on that Merck page that the most common disease known is wet tail can be found in pigs. So why would pigs be suceptible to a hamster only disease, but not rats? It makes NO sense.

You are right, I don't want your help. I don't want help from anyone who only is interested in believing that they are better than everyone else.

Also, I'm not very familiar with rat mills, but I assume they are like puppy mills. I am completely against animal abuse. It sickens me to think of how animals are treated in puppy mills, and by extension I would assume rat mills. It sickens me how livestock are treated and how chain pet stores neglect their animals. 

It also sickens me that you would blindly assume to know anything about me. My wife and I have rescued many animals, hedgehogs, chinchillas, rats, cats, dogs. There have been occasions where we were financially not able to support an animal with medical needs, but then we go to great lengths to put them in homes where they will have that medical support. Specifically we have found homes for animals with diabetes and allergies who needed special treatments and therefore needed a financially viable owner.

So I apologize if I've offended you, but I will not ignore implications that I have done some sort of harm to my animals.


----------



## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

I'm coming into this very late, but I'm going to go ahead and reply. Shelagh/Lilspaz has been rescuing rats for years. She's worked very closely with her exotics vet for the treatment of these rats. Her point is simply that you cannot trust OTC medications and that an exotics vet is the _only_ way to properly treat your exotics. Not once in all my years of having rats or of talking about rats on other forums, has wet tail been ever mentioned. If it's something rats can get, I've never had any verifiable evidence of such. If you want to believe rats get wet tail, then whatever. Next time go to your vet and see what they have to say about it all.

Now as to the issue with your remaining rat's tail, you've barely given any details as to what's going on or posted pictures. Slightly curled and rock hard could be any number of things. You said the fur and skin were still there, correct? Then it's probably not a degloving, but isn't completely ruled out. Generally you would be able to see bone in a full degloving, but if only the tip was injured in some way, all of the skin may not have come off. You said the tail tip is the same color as always, not brown or anything, right? It could just be an injury where the tail tip broke and has healed in an awkward way. Rat's tails are really quite delicate, so any number of things could have happened to it. If he doesn't seem bothered by it, or in any pain when you touch it, I would just accept it as a new quirk to your rat and move along. If he is feeling pain [such as squeaking when you touch it, over grooming it, etc..] then I would take him to your exotics vet as soon as possible and have him checked over.


----------



## monstrmac1 (Aug 20, 2011)

I understand the point about OTC medicines. I think its good advice in general. 

I think its a good point that wet tail needs to be addressed properly. It seems to have developed into an urban legend that rats can't get wet tail. That doesn't mean that its not true, it just needs to be addressed by someone who has encountered the phenomenon or the data. It shouldn't be dismissed just because its never addressed.

The problem doesn't seem to be causing him pain. I've touched it quite a bit to examine it and there's no squeaking or even flinching for that matter.


----------



## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

As I said, if you want to believe rats get wet tail, then so be it. I'm not going to believe it because I have yet to see any research that supports that they do, in fact, get wet tail. Diarrhea happens, for all sorts of reasons, and I will never use an OTC medication for wet tail to treat that. I'll either take them to my vet for analysis or treat them at home with the BRAT diet depending on the severity.

Now, the actual subject at hand.. If it's not causing him any pain and hasn't shown any further signs of dying tissue, I'd let it be. It's possible he had an injury you didn't know about and it's healed awkwardly. Keep an eye out for any changes in the skin, as a partial degloving is a possibility. Make sure the tail tip is warm to the touch and not cool as that's a sign of a more serious injury and could cause your rat the end of his tail. If you're further concerned about it, though, take him into your vet as soon as possible and let them check him out.


----------



## TobyRat (May 24, 2011)

Rats seem to be very resistant to the specific bacteria that causes the “wet tail” that in so enzootic in hamsters. While rats can obtain the bacteria and even shed it in their feces, they are basically asymptomatic. There are MANY types of bacteria that can cause diarrhea in small animals. The reason that “rats, mice, guinea pigs” is included on the bottle of Dri-Tail (Neomycin) is because Neomycin is effective on more bacteria than just the strain that causes wet tail. Also, in the world of marketing, the more animal species you have on the bottle the more people that are going to buy the product. Hamsters who have “wet tail” usually die of dehydration, so just using Neomycin without SUB-Q fluids Rx'ed by a vet usually isn’t effective.

Monstrmac1, no one here is calling you a bad rat owner so there is no need to get so defensive. It is obvious you love your rats and that you are dedicated to their needs. 

Most importantly though, it your rat’s tail… Whenever you can get that pic up we can give you advice, however, sometimes the only advice to give is to get the rat to a vet.


----------

