# Aggression with cage mate, submission with me....what???



## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Hi guys  I've been a very active member of the behavior boards lately...




















So here are my boys, Marley and clark (respectively). And a shot of their cage for reference if you need it. Marley is sub and clark is dom. Did immersion and now clark and i have an awesome relationship. Marley and I always did, really. I posted "Aggression or Dominance" a while back, and after immersion i thought everything was going smoothly until last night. 

I was giving marley his favorite skritches when i pulled at something under his fur. He didn't squeak thank goodness but it frightened me. i pulled his fur around and looked, and it was a wound greatly resembling the one i posted on my "A or D" thread. No one responded to that one, no hard feelings, and i didn't get the chance to take pictures of the new one so here is what the old one looked like, since they're really similar:









I was distressed, but it was sometime past midnight and marley was being uncooperative so i put him back in the cage. Every morning my dad comes in to tell me he's leaving, feed the dog, do the dishes, you know, so he sat on my bed and talked. after a second he said "He's _dragging _him away, look!" And i peeked up to find Clark clamped onto marley's neck. Marley had the brakes on, trying to keep from being pulled, and clark was yanking him down the "Stair" with success. Dad was sitting on my stupid bedsheets so it took a while for me to get there, but once i opened the door clark let go and i grabbed him took him out of the cage rolled him over in my hand and held him there. I read that rubbing his belly is a reward, right? So i didnt' do that i just held him there and he squirmed but i didn't let him go for a good long while. I took Marley out and rubbed him comfortingly at my chest, and checked his wound again. There's a big bloody scab on this one. Didn't find anything on his neck. 

I feel terrible  clark and i are good and marley and i are good and even sometimes, clark and marley do just fine they cuddle like best bro's and romp playfully but other times clark will just go after my marley and chase him around that cage endlessly, grooming him roughly (Doesn't seem like barbering as i havent noticed fur patches). Sometimes marley's just foolish and goes to clark's hidey hole when he's eating so that romp is all his own fault but sometimes its just really out of the blue. 

I made friends with someone who works at Petco who has a lot of rats and, the last time this was a problem, he said i might have to separate them. I don't have 80$ to drop on another cage. My other thought is to maybe get another rat who isn't so mellow, but whenever you see that on like the Dog whisperer, "Oh Spot was behaving poorly so we got him a friend" it all goes to crap. Dunno if rats are the same and i certainly don't want to subject this poor new rat to something like that. And i'm nervous about first introductions too. 

What do i do? I feel terrible...Like as i was writing this i had clark out of the cage, i worried he would get jealous that i took marley out, and he was climbing on me and trying to run off with my necklace pendant and i rolled my eyes as i realized he wanted attention, then was proud of myself for realizing it. Like i feel like *i've* gotten better but he and marley are still at odds for some reason. What do i need to do to get them to get along with one another?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

If the dom is being aggressive, another cage mate is not a great idea. However, I have two rats one mellow one hyper. The mellow one would get so stressed because the hyper one (dom) wanted to play and would be a bit rough. The mellow one does a lot better with hyper rats having friends to play with so she can chill.

The issue is still aggression v. dominance. I do not think an aggressive rat would be so "bipolar" : loving at times, aggressive at other times. Chasing, grooming, pinnin, and yes even pulling can all just be the dominant rat being playful. Where are the bites located in your opinion? Hind quarters is usually the target area for aggression.

Do you have a travel cage or could you fashion a bin cage? It may be worth while to reduce the area they have to play in, change the houses up (so they have no "MINE" stuff) and see how they do for a night. Then, you could wash down the cage redecorate it and put them back in if you were successful.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

They're on his sides, closer to his back than his belly. This second one is farther down toward the hindquarters than the first was. 

I have a really small cage, like a foot long, four feed deep, four feet tall. I use it to transport them. "Fashion a bin cage", what's this? 

And you're saying to make somewhat of a smaller cage and put neutral toys in it and see how it goes?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes. There is a method on here that I had read about, a travel cage. It is a bit like immersion in that the rats are in a new neutral territory that is smaller. They must deal with each other. A bin cage is http://i25.tinypic.com/1z4954x.jpg just a tote made into a cage. The travel cage would work fine. Make it into like a temporary cage and observe them. If there isn't aggression, I would expect to see stressed rats snuggle.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Oops lol their travel cage is i foot by four inches by four inches. It's really small and fits just them and nothing else, sorry about that. 

Okay so i cut the sides open, and replace it with some sort of wire? Where would i find that wire stuff at, a walmart or would i have to go to a hardware store? Then leave them for a day and hopefully they're alright. Thing is i rarely get to see when they fight--i have no idea where his two wounds, in particular, came from. Would only 1 day be enough, i wonder? Would it hurt them to be there for more like 2 or 3?

And if it doesn't work, could i use that bin cage as clark's cage and keep marley in the one i have now? Just spend more time with them each individually right?

And thanks again for helping me out


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> If the dom is being aggressive, another cage mate is not a great idea. However, I have two rats one mellow one hyper. The mellow one would get so stressed because the hyper one (dom) wanted to play and would be a bit rough. The mellow one does a lot better with hyper rats having friends to play with so she can chill.


Rereading this, i've gotten a little confused. You said it isn't a great idea to get another one. You have 2 rats, much as i have a hyper dom and calm sub. the sub does better when the dom has another friend to play with aside from the dom, you're saying? So was that a "Yes good idea" or "no bad idea" for a 3rd rat? Sorry lol just a little confused


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I wouldn't. A bin cage isn't advised as permanent housing, but if you made two and stacked them it would be pretty good: A bit like this http://www.thehamsterplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/a-double-decker-cage.jpg 
I wouldn't push it much past a day, as being caged up like that can cause stress and therefore aggression. I said a day in particular because I figure the fighting is happening while you are away.


But again, I'm not to sure that what you have is aggression needing separation. The wounds are like a week apart, and there are only two one per incident. I think firm consistency via immersion should be enough. When he is being mean in the cage, I would pin him right then and there in the cage next to Marley. I mean, you said they cuddle and play and groom which is all nice things.
I like to think of rats a lot like humans. You'll hear the analogy of a lone rat like a human cooped up in isolation but it is more than that. Think of everyone you've ever lived with or any long car ride you've taken...have things ALWAYS been awesome? If you are anything like me, you've probably gotten in a few arguments; you made a mess, you took my things, the music is too loud... Even my boyfriend of 4 years and I argue, and usually it is over stupid silly little things.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

relken0608 said:


> Rereading this, i've gotten a little confused. You said it isn't a great idea to get another one. You have 2 rats, much as i have a hyper dom and calm sub. the sub does better when the dom has another friend to play with aside from the dom, you're saying? So was that a "Yes good idea" or "no bad idea" for a 3rd rat? Sorry lol just a little confused


My mellow rat is my female, Caius. Remus is the hyper (neutered) male. He will chase her, bowl her over, bully her, stress her out, everything. Before his neuter I didn't realize Caius was a female and thus they had babies. The girls I am keeping are also hyper and playful, so he chases and play fights with them and Caius gets to nap on her shelf. She went from being ragged and needing "personal time" every day away from him to being much happier and desiring his company (deteriorating when they were separated). So, sometimes throwing a third in the mix will resolve the problems. That is so long as it is just compatibility and not behavioral-based. I think the bin cage experiment should determine that or not.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Okay. So what kind of wire is that, specifically? Moreover, what wire would be okay to put that they won't chew straight through? Or, in a day maybe they wont because there's not enough time...

So 1 day it is. I'll try to discretely supervise them as much as possible. If all goes well, they'll snuggle and cuddle. If not, clark will still go after him. If they cuddle, that means it's just domination and adding a 3rd would be okay assuming it was hyper enough to handle clark. If it's aggression, they'll need to be separated. Did i get all that right?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hardware cloth, sorry I forgot that. Get PVC coated 1/4in hardware cloth. I would just go for the hardware store, located in the fencing aisle. Don't use galvanized, zinc-coated and certainly not plastic. Bin cages work for short-term housing, like if you got a new rat so you could quarantine him and intro him.

That's right, in my opinion. I would see if someone else ambles in.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Ambles in?And okay, thanks. So assuming I got a 3rd rat, I could do the introductions in the bin? And as summing it went poorly, would getting Clark neutered be an option? I've headed mixed review about it being good or bad


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Sorry I'm typing on my stupid phone So its trying to autocorrect me. I meant "assuming" and "heard"


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Introductions are best done where no one owns anything, so it could be the bin or maybe the bathtub. 

Neutering is an option. I think a bit extreme, but it is an option. My male is neutered and his energy level did not decrease, so if it is just an ADHD rat being a bit of a bully no go. Neutering is the option for males who are suffering aggression based on high levels of testosterone.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Alright; I think I've got it. Thanks so much!


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