# Fighting or Playing? - Blood Involved



## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

The other day I noticed a few small dots of dried blood on my smaller rat (Sophie). She and her cage mate Lilith wrestle a lot but I've never seen any blood before now. They don't seem very viscous towards each other but it's clear Lilith is the dominant one. I kept an eye on Sophie for the past few days and noticed another, slightly larger, clump of dried blood on her back, but it is still very small, like the size of a pinhead. I know the rule is "no blood, no foul" but these all seem to be very minor injuries probably caused by hard nibbling when Lilith pins her down and grooms her. I don't think they are fighting per say. It would absolutely break my heart if I had to separate them :/. What do you guys think?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, it doesn't sound too bad. But these situations are pretty fluid so you just have to watch and follow your gut.


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I would say they're okay to stay together. 

Two of my girls once had a really bad fight when they were babies. I came home and there was blood all over the hammock, and the injured rat (it was Jess when she was a baby) was huddled in a tube all bloodied and scared. Because they were my first in so long I was really worried and separated them for a couple of days, but now in hindsight I don't even think that was necessary. I put them back together and that was a year ago now, and there's never been a problem since. 

Sometimes I think they just accidentally nip too hard when they're playing, especially when they're still young and learning how rough is too rough. 

Just keep an eye on them, but I don't think it calls for separation. Not unless they're seriously fighting and causing injury to each other.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Agree with everyone and just wanted to add...are we sure this is blood and not porphyrin either being groomed off of the face and ending up on back shoulders, or someone isn't spraying with a sneeze? Just a thought, should be easy to rule out as you're going to be watching them extra close.


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

Phew! I'm so relieved. Thanks for all the replies  And yeah I'm sure it's blood. It's really close to the skin, dark, and crusty. I saw some of the wounds, too.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Oh dear. Ok, just wanted to throw out every possibility for good measure. How are they doing?


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

They're both doing fine  I haven't seen them wrestling much at all lately, which is weird for them!


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Are you sure no one's itching and there aren't any parasites? Parasites can cause little crusty areas of blood. Have you SEEN them injure one another?


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

I haven't seen them injure each other that I know of, but I see them wrestle/play a lot. I have seen her itching a bit lately so I suspected parasites and looked for them when I first noticed the blood clumps. I didn't see anything, though.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Unlikely has a good point, vet visit may be in order as there are parasites you won't see with the human eye. If its not parasites, perhaps the little bit of bloodshed was the the final stage of determining alpha and their good to go. Glad to hear they are doing well together.


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## Raturday (May 26, 2012)

If it's small scabs, it could be mites.

Do the scabs look similar to this?:









If so, it's most likely mites.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Agreed - you most likely won't be able to see mites with your eyes. I do believe there's a few cases where mite buildup becomes obvious or there was a person on the forums here who was able to notice blood mites that were very very small, but I wouldn't count on being able to see all parasites with the naked eye. Mites tend to leave sections of very irritated skin, like in the picture Raturday posted, with little bite patches that went all crusty.

If you only see them on one rat I suggest wetting both rats down (with warm water, in a warm room, of course) and checking. Fur can cover a lot of mite damage up. Unfortunately, most vets charge for skin scrapes to determine if there are mites or not. As it is, I wouldn't rush them to the vet, but I would watch them a few days for itching just in case. If you see itching and notice more of these patches, definitely go to a vet. You'll want Revolution. It will take all of the nastiness out in one go.

If it's just from bites, then the advice given about leaving them together is good.  I just thought I'd raise a point that unless you've seen them draw blood then there could be another cause.


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

Raturday: The spots are much smaller than that and usually not visible unless I part her fur, but there were some on her chin I saw. I am starting to think it could be mites, though.

Since it's really not serious at this point I'll wait and see, then order Revolution online if need be. My money situation is a lot different than when I first got my rats so I'd like to avoid an expensive vet trip. :/


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Revolution needs to be prescribed by a vet, but you could order Ivermectin and look up the dosing. It's an oral paste that you'll have to mix up to make sure it's absolutely even. Sometimes dosing with Ivermectin can be intimidating because it's possible to mix it incorrectly and give the wrong dose, so if you aren't careful there's that. This is why Revolution administered by a vet is ideal, but there are other options. Ivermectin is certainly cheaper and doesn't involve a vet visit.

Lilspaz or someone else on the forum may be able to direct you to accurate dosing information. Best of luck, but yeah. Watch them a few days and see if you observe itching or skin irritation on either or both of them. It sounds like it's most likely mites.  On the plus side, your girls probably aren't drawing blood from one another and their fighting is just routine scuffles. So it's better than you thought, and you won't have to separate them -- but you should treat both for mites, because mites like to infest everyone available.


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

Well I did find Revolution online, although it is for cats. Here's the website: http://www.vidalspets.com/epages/vidalspets.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/vidalspets/Categories/Flea/%22Revolution%20Cats%22 

So of course I'll have to be really careful about dosage.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

If it's safe for kittens under 5 weeks or 5 Pounds it is safe for rats. Along with that for extra measure rub a bit of tea tree oil on it, it may smell like someone puked up mouthwash but it helps.

He could have a skin issue. (Wow I have a feeling a lot of people on here are Going to be getting tired of me typing this) but he could have an under active thyroid due to low Iodine. It's very common for it to cause skin issues. Use only bottled water (without added flouride as that would defeat the purpose) and add in yogurt and seeds (if you can cooked fish would also be a huge plus as they are high in iodine). It could also be low fat, low protein, or dry skin from not enough oils. In which case they would all help.

my rat Soda had similar scabs and when we put him on only bottled water and added Iodine it went away. Of coarse this was after my mom figured out about Iodine, and after about 6 months trying to make Mites that weren't really there to begin with go away (it doesn't work all that well by the way). I've actually been noticed that a lot of issues my boys have been having have been Iodine related.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Mites usually attack on the face head or back of the neck. A dose of revolution should do the trick.


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## bbtheb235 (Jun 12, 2012)

Yeah most of her scabs have been on her head/neck, although I found a small one on her side. I'll wait a bit to see how things go, then treat for mites first if it seems like that. If that doesn't work I'll definitely look into treating for low Iodine. Thanks guys


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As you can't actually see mites, it just makes sense not to treat for them. But... Pretty much, if you leave mites untreated, your rat's going to start breathing funny and die. I kind of did the wait and see approach with my daughter's white mice and it didn't go so well. Now, I treat for mites at the first signs of scabs and our rodents don't die so much.

The revolution should run under $20.00 for a dose (enough to treat several rats) and doesn't do any harm if you don't massively overdose. Call around, and try to find a vet that doesn't see rats, they still may sell you the revolution, or if you have a vet, try him first. In outdoor cats and dogs revolution is prescribed preemtively to prevent flea and tick infestations so you don't really need a diagnosis of mites to treat responsibly.


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