# Squabbling ratties



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Does anyone else's (girls in particular) ratties squabble for 3-4 days at a time? 

I keep hearing a LOT of squeaking and seeing some (I'm hoping) intense play fighting, grooming and pinning. They've been doing this now for days and I'm starting to get a little bit worried. They always squabble as siblings do (real sisters) and I know they play fight but they both seem off in general, no one seems ill and there has been no blood shed and I've checked for wounds etc, but it's starting to feel a bit weird and is getting to be a bit much seeing it happen for days on end. I thought to start with that one or both was in heat as it is when it usually happens more than anything, but this has gone on for much longer than usual and doesn't seem to be stopping any time soon. 

Could getting them out separately at times have started this? If one wants to come out and the other doesn't during the day sometimes I will let one of them out for a little while on their own. Proper run around time is always together for at least an hour usually so they get plenty of attention and if one has been out on her own I make sure the other girl gets some time out alone too when she wants to come out so I'm not seen to be playing favourites. I don't even do it very often, they are usually always out together.

Is there anything I can do? Or should I just let it play out?


----------



## Veileddreamer (Sep 21, 2015)

I take my rats out individually sometimes too. I think that they probably don't keep a score as closely as human kids do, and mostly they just want to feel loved. I imagine it'd have to be pretty dramatic favorites for them to get upset over it, so I don't think the individual time is a problem at all. In fact I have one rat who genuinely prefers alone time with me! She is just very weird with other rats, she mostly tolerates everyone.

In fact, that very same girl (Penelope) just sort of plays rough. She rarely bites or genuinely attacks the other rats, and of course I break it up when she does, but she definitely likes to flip and pin and chase and generally remind everyone she is Ms. Alpha. One of her cage mates, Willow, plays rough right back. What I've heard here is just to let it happen if there is no blood... it may seem scary to us but apparently to them it's just playing around.

Different rats have different tolerances for playing rough, too, I think. For example, Willow is chill with the rough play, but Penelope can do the exact same thing to Zephyr (Willow's sister) and Zephyr cries and cries until I rush over, thinking someone is seriously wounded! Then again, Zephyr also cries for her mama when another ratty steals her lab block, regardless of the fact that there is a whole bowl of lab blocks halfway across the cage.  If your girls seem OK with the style of play, meaning no one is getting really truly bitten, I'm not sure there's much you can do. Penelope has played this way with Willow for basically forever, and I've not found anything that could make her stop, and I don't really think I should even _try _to make her stop, because as I said, apparently it's just fun and games to them.

In short, the way I see it is, they may just be playing rough and loud. This seems most likely to me if there's no blood. Rat "playing" is really bizarre sometimes. Penelope can chase one of her cage mates until they squeak at the top of their lungs... and then not five minutes later she is cuddled with the very same rat, crammed together in the space pod. I don't really get it, but I guess us hoomans don't have to.


----------



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Thanks for your reply.I think it was more the fact it seems to have gone on for days and they both seemed a little off in general. I think it might have been a long drawn out power struggle which neither of them was enjoying. We seem to have the other rat in charge this week lol.


----------



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

They're at it again! 

It seems like there is yet ANOTHER massive power struggle going on, it was more than play fighting today, there was back leg kicking and a LOT of pinning and squealing. They only seemed to stop when I told them to behave. Give it another 5 mins max and they were at it again. It seemed to be mainly when one or the other got near the nest box or the litter tray. No one was bleeding so I left them to it for the most part and I know at least SOME of it was play fighting. 

Should I take out the nest box? I have lots of other hidey places for them, so it isn't like it is the only place to go. I obviously can't take out the litter tray, so should I get another so they can have one each?

Also, could this be to do with them being in heat?


----------



## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

How old are your rats?

What type/size cage do you have?
How many rats do you have?
How many types of beds do you have? Do you have hammocks? I like alot of different types of beds in my cages. 
Do they have toys in their cage? You can try food dispensers, and treat pinatas, things they can spend time working on.

The general rule is no blood/injury no foul. Just let them work it out. But sometimes it can just be a bit much without any injuries and leave everyone majorly stressed out. I find in these cases it is by far most often too much built up energy and/or not a large enough cage.

How often are they getting out of their cage? For how long? When you have them out what are they doing?

Rats and even more so female rats are very intelligent and need tons of mental stimulation. You put bored rats together and they have all the pent of energy and turn it on each other.


----------



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> How old are your rats?
> 
> What type/size cage do you have?
> How many rats do you have?
> ...


I'll try and answer all of those, I apologise in advance if I miss something out. 

We have a rat cage that can comfortably hold 3 fully grown rats, 4 at a pinch according to the rat calculator someone on here recommended I use but we will be upgrading to one that holds 8 before too long as we want to give them as much space as possible. 

We have 2 girls, they are 4.5 months old.

In their cage at the moment (I'll just list everything) is an igloo (which they keep squabbling in), a sputnik/spacepod which is hanging, a hammock (sometimes two), a small fleece dog bed type thing, a wheel, litter tray, another hammock used as a shelf, boxes, tubes (one hanging, one on the floor), ropes, perches, a wine carrier box that I made into a fun activity for them with treats and paper etc, balls, chews, willow sticks, a kitchen roll tube pinata, two water bottles, a ramekin with veggies and block food.

I change their cage around all the time, it gets changed a couple of times a week at least, usually more, which they love! They use their wheel and always do the activities I put them, whether it's in the morning or over night while I'm asleep as I get up in the morning and the cage is a complete mess lol.

I usually have them out of the cage a couple of times a day, in the morning it's for about 15-30 mins depending on how much time I have, and in the evening it's for at least 1-1.5 hours. They come out and either play on the sofa with me and my husband, I take them in the bathroom and set up boxes and tunnels and things for them, or on the bed is the same thing. If we give them toys they ignore them no matter how much I try to get them interested, they like to run around for a while and then they'll find a box or tunnel they like and they'll just sit in there and not do much. I honestly don't know what more I can do. I could try and do more bathroom time I suppose but I struggle with the stairs so it's a monumental task getting up there with rats in a carrier. I even bought leads so they could go on the floor in the living room and explore more, but I can't get them to sit still long enough to put them on and I don't want to stress them out! I tried to let them explore the kitchen work surfaces the other day as I can disinfect them afterwards but as soon as I put them on there they just jumped straight back in my top. 

They are always snuggled up together when I look at them, or they're squabbling. They are fine for so long and even if they are apart one seeks the other out to start something or other. I have a feeling one, or possibly both could have been in heat today. Could that be the cause? or, could it be that because they are actual sisters they are more pre-disposed to bickering?

I just want them to be happy, which I think they are, I had some serious eye boggling and bruxing going on from both of them today after I rearranged the cage and later on just when I was sat talking to them. I did try to get them out tonight as usual but neither was having any of it, they would come up to the door and have a quick fuss and off they'd go again running on the wheel or playing or eating, generally anything they wanted other than coming out. Both me and my husband tried for well over an hour but they weren't having any of it which is unusual.


----------



## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Well at that age they are quite young and so are really full of boundless energy! They really need so much stimulation going on. 

I would not rearrange their cage so often. Not more than once a week IMO. Rats can be quite territorial and too much change can be stressful just as much as it can be fun and exciting, there is a balance there. But there is a sense of home and comfort when things are normal, just imagine in your own house if things were constantly changing.

i would change a few things some weeks and something else different weeks so some of it is still the same.

It can be hard to give rats a good playtime. have you thought about creating a large playpen? You can use like posterboard or coroplast to make a large/tall pen that can easily be taken down/folded when not in use. Throw it full of boxes, treat toys, etc... and yeah they may play for a few mins then take a nap. And that is ok because it is sitll good mental energy just being out. 

But I have found that having a good interesting space and a routine helps. if at about the same time every day you take them out they will have more energy during that time as they are adjusted and waiting for it. But it takes time for that to develop.

Treat toys are great. You can google DIY bird toys or rat toys to get ideas. It can be as simple as wrapping treats in a paper towel and stuffing it in a cardboard roll.

heat can cause some bickering. It depends on the rat, but hormones suck for us all lol I don't think them being sisters matter at all. It is probably just the age thing. Give them a few months and they will calm down.


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I second Moonkissed on more stimulation and outside playtime. You could build them an easy but super fun playground. Here is what I did for my rats, it is endless joy and fun for them. http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?326626-Rat-fun-playground-with-cardboard-boxes-and-tunnels


----------



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Thanks. I've made sure they had plenty to play with for free range time. They've had almost two hours this morning as I won't be back until late tonight. I think I will put the Kong in their cage before I go out to keep them occupied.


----------



## Lucozade126 (Jul 31, 2016)

Update: I've done as suggested and not changed the cage around for almost a week (waiting until full cleaning day) and have only added enrichment items such as boxes with treats, pinatas, etc and I've given them more to play with at free range time. They're still squabbling, I can see some is play fighting, but it looks like there is plenty of dominance fighting going on as well as far as I can tell. I'm new to rat owning so I'll describe it and make sure it really is and I'm not imagining it... 

Back leg kicks, rat boxing, pinning, intense grooming, loud squeaks or a series of small squeaks, one freezes for quite a while whilst pinned or being boxed and one keeps looking as though so is try to grab the other from behind and is constantly sniffing at/poking her bum with her nose as though she is trying to start something. 

They went with such a scuffle and a loud squawk yesterday that a load of bedding flew out of the cage and I have a fairly deep base pan. Then today they seemed to start fighting over food or something on a shelf just outside their igloo and they both nearly fell off it!

I keep checking that no one is injured and so far they are ok, no blood has been drawn so I've been leaving them to it unless I hear something I think I might need to check on. I know this might sound silly but I think they are jealous of each other. I give them both just as much attention, treats, etc, as does my husband, but they seem to always be jealous of the other getting any attention at all. Sometimes if I stroke one of them and they wander off the other one will seem to start something as soon as she can rather than coming to me for a fuss herself.


----------

