# Bar spacing?



## steven120694 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi all! Quick introduction, Im Steven from the UK. I keep 2 guinea pigs and a rabbit at the current moment. I am 17 and currently doing 5 A levels in, Business studies, ICT, Media, Psychology and physics. 
I have previously owned a number of different pets: 3 syrian hamsters (Not together of-course), 4 Gerbils, 4 Guinea pigs, 1 rabbit and 2 Mice in my lifetime. 

Anyway back to the question!
I have been very interested in pet rats ever since i saw a video on youtube. I have done some research over about 6 months and have decided that i would like to accommodate 2 male rats. I plan on buying them from Pets at home, this is because everyone always says they are bad, making me feel bad for the pets, someone has to have them, right? I know its weird but thats just how i feel, plus i have bought all of my previous pets from there and they all have been fantastic and lived very long, healthy lives! I have bought a cage that is 80x80x45, which according to a online calculator is fine. So... to the questions!!!!

1) The bar spacing on the cage is 20mm, Is this too big? 
2)I have a hamster cage that is 40x30x35cm (lxdxh) Will that be ok until they get bigger?
3)If not, could i use chicken wire stuff and cable ties? (I really dont want to do this as i dont really have that kind of money, i would prefer to keep them in the hamster cage!)
4) How long till they will grow to a size they will not fit out the bars?
5) I plan on using shredded paper, in result, how often should i clean them out?
6)How often should they have baths?
7)Probably the most common question... How bad will the cage/ they smell? Truthfully? Perhaps compared to Male syrian hamsters? or Male guinea pigs?

Thank you for you time, i don't yet have the ratties, but they will come soon!
THANK YOU!


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## abmama (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm not sure about most of your questions but the smell is something i have personally not had a problem with, i have two unneutered males and i use arm and hammer natural pet bedding which is affordable. I would have to say I tried shredded paper at first and it was terrible, it really left a mess all over the cage as the urine just sort of sat on the paper and then wiped all over the rats and cage itself.


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## Snippet (Dec 30, 2010)

The problem with [email protected] is not the rats themselves, it's where they come from. Imagine a puppy farm for rodents and you've got a good idea of the condtions they're kept in. The females are constantly either pregnant or nursing a litter, and they will do this until they're too exhausted to produce anymore babies. They will then be killed for reptile food. The babies are under socialised which can make for jumpy pets, and they're bred with no consideration to health or temperament. My pet shop/ rescue girls have caused me so much heart break because no one thought about their health when they put their parents together. If you buy a rat from a pet shop you will only open up some room for them to bring in some more. You might be 'rescuing' your pair, but you'll be condemming another doe and her litter to the above cycle.

I'd get your rats from either a rescue centre or a breeder. Rescue rats may have originated from a pet shop, but if you take them on you will be doing the rats a favour and not putting money in the pockets of a company who couldn't give a toss. It also gives the rescue more room to help needy animals. A good breeder breeds their rats for good temperament and health. I think a beginner would be better off with a pair of breeder rats because they're less likely to become aggressive with each other when they hit their teenaged stage and need neutering. 

I've had girls in cages with 25mm bar spacing, so bucks in a cage with 20mm bar spacing should be fine because boys are smaller then girls. My first rat was tiny (weighed 250g when fully grown) and never escaped from my main cage wich has bar spacing of 22mm. TBH, your hamster cage isn't big enough for active babies, so I'd mesh your big cage if you think they will get out. It will reallt depend on your rats as to what age they wil be big enough for that bar spacing. A pair of strapping breeder babies might be big enough at 8 weeks, but smaller pet shop boys might not be big enough until they're 3 months old (or older).

I used to use shredded paper, and it really does get nasty. It runs off the paper to the bottom of the cage where it forms puddles which soak the paper. It also has almost no odour control and stinks pretty quickly. A couple of beddings I've used are Auboise and Ecobed which are both horse beddings. The auboise had the better obour control (my girls could go 2 weeks without getting stinky on that) but it is more expensive and you use more of it in each cage clean out. A bale of Auboise would last me 4 months with 3 rats. Ecobed isn't as good with smells, but it is cheaper and you use less compared to the Auboise because it expands when taken out of the bag. A bale lasts me about 6 months with 4 rats. A weekly clean out should be plenty.

I only ever bath my girls if they get disgusting. Rats spend a lot of time grooming, so they will keep themselves clean most of the time. Sometimes they get a bit stinky, but that's usually when they've been marinating. I honesly don't notice much of a smell from my rat cage other then the expected animal smell. I'd say guniea pigs smell much worse then rats.


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## abmama (Aug 2, 2011)

Snippet said:


> I'd say guniea pigs smell much worse then rats.


I second that, guinea pigs are some of the most smelly animals i've ever been around honestly, and even my dogs natural dog smell is way worse than the rats @[email protected]


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## Bananana (Aug 1, 2011)

I agree that you should try adopting or rescuing your rats. It's a great option! You can check classified ads, too. 



> 1) The bar spacing on the cage is 20mm, Is this too big?


That's a bit wide for young rats. I'd stick with .5-inch spacing (around 12mm) if you're getting young rats. 



> 2)I have a hamster cage that is 40x30x35cm (lxdxh) Will that be ok until they get bigger?


That's way, way too small. You'll want to buy a cage meant for rats (or ferrets if you can find one with the appropriate bar-spacing). You'll want something at least 60cm x 45cm x 75 cm (24inX17inX30in). 



> 3)If not, could i use chicken wire stuff and cable ties? (I really dont want to do this as i dont really have that kind of money, i would prefer to keep them in the hamster cage!)


A bin cage might be a good option for you. I can't find good instructions for it online, so maybe someone can jump in on that, but here's the general idea: 










They can be very inexpensive and you can usually get quite a large bin to build them with. You might also want to check classified ads for a used cage. A hamster cage is simply not acceptable for a rat. 



> 4) How long till they will grow to a size they will not fit out the bars?


Some rats stay small forever, so you can't count on them growing into a cage. However, males will usually get large enough by about 6 months of age. 



> 5) I plan on using shredded paper, in result, how often should i clean them out?


Make sure there's no ink on the paper (or that if there is, it's soy-based). Ink isn't good for ratties. Aspen is a fairly inexpensive bedding and it doesn't contain the lung-irritating oils that soft woods like cedar and pine do. How often you should clean their cage depends on how big it is, how many rats you have and your own sensitivity to smell. You'll want to clean it at least every week, though, if not more frequently. 



> 6)How often should they have baths?


You don't need to bathe rats unless they get into something messy/smelly/harmful. Some people bathe their rats (especially older males who may get an orange-y buildup on their coats), but it isn't usually necessary. 



> 7)Probably the most common question... How bad will the cage/ they smell? Truthfully? Perhaps compared to Male syrian hamsters? or Male guinea pigs?


Rats aren't very smelly. Males are going to smell slightly more than females will, but if you keep their cage clean, neither will smell very much at all. 

Hope this helps!


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