# Zymbal's Tumor?



## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey all, so my boy Mico is getting on in age (will be 3yrs in Feb.) and three days ago I noticed a great big crusty mass in his ear. I check the older rat's ears often since their back legs don't seem to clean quite as well, so this definitely seemed to come on very suddenly, especially since his other ear was clean and spotless. After removing the crustyness his ear began to bleed, deep down from the inside. Wasn't too much blood but I used a few q-tips to clean it out and when that was all done with, I could see a growth of some kind deep in his ear. He's not the hold-still kind of rat even at his age, so unfortunately I couldn't get a good picture or look at the thing, but it's small, light in color, and wet looking. It's been a few days since then and the process of bleeding, crusting over, and then taking the crusties out has repeated once. I have no idea if the bleeding is coming from the growth or if he is picking at his ear, I have not personally seen him pick at his ear at all.

He also has another set of symptoms that totally baffled me - the left side of his face, the side with the growth in his ear, is unresponsive. His ear does not move or react to sound, his whiskers do not move, and his eye is expressionless. In a human it would immediately make you think of a stroke, but the most telling sign of stroke in a rat is loss of balance and his balance is totally fine, so I really don't think that's what it is. I am wanting to get a video of this phenomenon just in case any other rat owner comes across it. 

Anyway, he went to the vet today where he was diagnosed with Horner's Syndrome for the loss of function in his face, probably caused by a disruption or damage to the nerves by a tumor in his ear. The vet said Horner's Syndrome is fairly common in cats and dogs and is treated with steroids, but they did not have a dosage small enough for a rat. I came home with some antibiotics and anti-inflammatory medication. After some googling, it sounds like Mico might have a Zymbal's tumor, something I have never dealt with in my years of rat ownership, so I was wondering if anyone here might have encountered this before and have any advice for what to do or what to expect. So far it's been three days since this was noticed and despite the problems with his face, Mico has not been acting or eating any differently than normal. He does the occasional shaking of his head though, which was described as one of the symptoms of a Zymbal's tumor.
I expect this will probably be a "quality of life" thing, but any advice or personal experience would be very welcome.
thank you <3


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

When my Wafer had a Zymbal's tumor, there was nothing in her ear... the tumor itself was a large scab on the side of her face, on her cheek, under her ear. 

I do hope it's something minor and not one of those nasty tumors.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Small update: Starting Mico on all his medication today, just had his first dose of antibiotics. The growth from inside the ear looks unchanged, but now there is quite a visible lump on the side of his head, directly under the ear area. It is definitely under the skin (and I do not see any scabbing apart from what's been happening inside his ear).


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

That sounds so much like Zymbals tumor. I hope I'm wrong. Best of luck!


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Grotesque said:


> That sounds so much like Zymbals tumor. I hope I'm wrong. Best of luck!


Can you share any information in regards to what happened when you dealt with this kind of tumor? What did you treat it with? How did it progress and how did your ratty act? Were there signs of pain? Did you have to resort to euthanasia?
Ty for anything you might be willing to share <3


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

It started with a lump on the side of her face, on her cheek, next to her ear. It got bigger until a scab formed. As it got bigger, it started to stink really bad and both blood and clear fluids started to leak from both her ear and the tumor itself. 

The smell... I can't even describe the smell. It was DEATH. 

Wafer didn't seem to act any different until her last couple weeks. When she was about a week to two weeks away from dying, she wanted to be out of the cage and by herself more. There were more signs of discomfort than pain. It was more a decline in general health than a specific sign. You can just look at them and tell they aren't feeling well. 

That is when we got her Metacam. She was on Metacam for pain in her last couple weeks. We did have to euthanize her, sadly. As the tumor got larger, it misaligned her jaw making her unable to eat solid foods. It was mostly the jaw misalignment that led to the decision to put her down when we did. It was getting hard for her to eat her baby food and Ensure, as it was just drip out of her mouth. Her teeth were broken from her jaw being off center.

It was truly horrible. I hated watching it happen to her. Wafer lived a couple months with the tumor from beginning to end.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm so sorry you had to go through all that :C 
What you described does sound like what's happening with Mico. He's having a grand time because he gets strawberry jam three times a day now, but I don't think the tumor or his condition is getting any better, even with the medication. His ear doesn't smell pleasant, definitely like rot. It looks like he's starting to lose hair around his ear, too. 
The tumor is sitting around his jaw so I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye on his teeth, thank you.

Nothing really to update now, I'm not sure if the lump on his ear has gotten any larger, but it definitely hasn't gotten any smaller. I also didn't see this mentioned anywhere as a symptom, but he's itching himself a lot. Not really in any particular place, just... constantly itching.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

*Treating Zymbal Rat Tumor with Cannabis Salve*

I read about testing Zymbal tumors with cannabis salve...the pics speak for themselves. They started to treat when the tumor was already really really bad, so treating it early should get even better results. Maybe something you might want to try yourself. http://www.ratfanclub.org/cannabiscase.html


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Finally got some pictures to show-
First two were from the 12th of this month. Tumor started to get larger and become much more apparent:














This one is from today, with a scab starting to form just as user Grotesque described:







It's concerningly large now, and I seriously doubt the medication is doing much of anything, save for some pain relief. Thank you so much Gribouilli for that article and recommendation, I will look into getting a hold of some cannabis salve asap. Is there any other information regarding treatment with cannabis that might come in handy? Living in Washington means it won't be hard to find, but I am a sad excuse for a millennial by not knowing much of anything about cannabis or it's medical useage.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I just want to say I hope Mico gets well soon. Poor baby I cant imagine how uncomfortable that must be.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Keep us updated. When they started to use that cannabis salve, the Zymbal tumor was already really bad, in your case it isn't bad yet so I hope it will heal it pretty well; or at the very least slow it down considerably. I just started my rat Graine on cannabis oil for internal tumors, I'll start a thread on that soon. I wish I started her much sooner.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Ok pretty big update!
Went to the marijuana store and talked with the attendees. They had several pet-branded items available, all of them were liquid drops despite me looking for some kind of topical salve. One was bacon flavored (clearly for dogs) and another was twice as powerful, but was unfortunately "citrus" flavored and had a picture of an orange on the box. Decided to be cautious and forgo that one, but that left me with the less powerful option. Then they brought out something new they'd just received, not tested on or marketed for pets mind you, but is some kind of ultra-concentrated cannabis oil that was like 6 times the amount of the pet brands. 
Sounded like it was the best option so I got that one, here's a picture but it doesn't show much so I'll write the percentages below:







CBD:
46% 460mg
THC: 6% CBC: 2%
CBG: 6% CBN: 1%

Admittedly I'm not very informed on what those percentages mean, but the attendees assured me it wouldn't hurt Mico (and if I'm frank, I figured if I ended up killing the poor boy it'd probably be a nicer way out than the alternative anyway). 
There aren't really any instructions as far as dosage go, it's for human use so it just kind of states to use a small amount and then work your way up to whatever is comfortable. I've been giving Mico one small drop per day so far. I didn't really notice anything different about him or his demeanor on the first day. He's an old boy who mostly just sleeps, so he's been sleeping as usual if not a little deeper. He's been having strawberry jam at least once a day for two weeks so I think the magic of treats has worn off a little. He ate the medicine okay on the first day but has been increasingly averse to it (I don't blame him, it smells horribly of concentrated weed). I mix it with jam, peanut butter, and a sprinkle of oregano and just leave the spoon in his cage to nibble on.

Today (third day of cannabis medicine) I noticed the lump on his face with the scab started leaking puss. Picture:







Drained it as thoroughly as I was able, and also picked out another big scab from his ear. A little bit of puss leaked from inside his ear again which I attempted to clean, but Mico had had well enough of me at that point. I really don't have any idea if this has any connection with the cannabis treatment. Despite draining the abscess, there still remains a large lump under his chin area.













Here he is after draining the abscess, and another with an outline drawn around what still appears to be the tumor. The pus leaking from inside his ear is concerning, too. At least I'm sure he feels better without that pressure buildup in his face anymore. 

So that's where we stand now. He really doesn't want to eat his cannabis medicine at all today, and I'm not sure what else I can add to it to make it appetizing. His teeth _look_ fine but I'm concerned he might be having trouble eating, somehow. Maybe the tumor is messing up his jaw or throat? I noticed he takes very, very tiny nibbles at things now instead of full bites. I'm thinking about mixing his lab blocks with water into more of a paste.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The cannabis has nothing to do with the pus coming out IMO, unless it is helping the healing??? Anyway, look for a salve recipe on the web and make one with the cannabis oil you have. The treatment for a Zymbal tumor should be on it, not that taking it internally might not help too. My Graine doesn't like the taste either, and I got the most concentrated cannabis oil too. I mix it with about 1 tablespoon of baby cereal and some banana. I use two drops morning and night. If I put more, she won't eat it. Try to put it on the tumor that's how it is going to help the most.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I don't have any information on this but I just wanted to say he looks so much better and so much more comfortable without all that pressure in his ear. I hope he starts to make some improvement, or at the very least doesn't decline anymore. Best of luck to you two.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey guys sorry for lack of updates. 
I softened Mico's food with water like I mentioned and it seemed to really help him eat much better. 
Unfortunately poor Mico has taken a pretty bad turn..
After I drained the abscess on his face, it was starting to fill up again that same night but the contents were different looking. Instead of being a thick yellow puss, what came out this time was brownish and watery. I drained it again, but the following morning it was refilling for a third time. It's progressed more and more into a hard lump and starting to look really gnarly, both leaking and bleeding occasionally.
The lack of movement in the side of his face is starting to dry his eye out, and there's pretty constant buildup of porphyrin around it (and his nose). The part of the tumor extending to his neck is really messing with his ability to breathe or maybe he's got a myco flare up. He's been having ever increasing bouts of gasping and very wet breathing sounds. I've scheduled an appointment for tomorrow to have him PTS. I'm scared he might suffocate so I'm really hoping he makes it till then. 
Thank you everyone for your input through this. I wish I could have had a better result with the cannabis, but Mico is an old boy and there's just much more affecting his health than the tumor.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm so sorry Mico is getting worse you are doing what's best for him, I know how you feel...


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