# Did I Do Wrong?



## chunkfromfinger (Aug 18, 2010)

I've kept rats for around 7 years and they've all bonded very closely to me. I have my tenth rat now (her sister died of respiratory problems a few months back). From rat number three onwards I've trained them all out of nibbling clothes by flicking their head (not hard enough to make them run away or shriek) when they do it. This has proven an effective and quick method to keep clothes and furniture intact. 

Now on to the question:

I met a friend's rat. I'd given it a few morsels of food from my spoon (my hands didn't smell of food). I held my hand out slowly and carefully to the rat so it could sniff, knowing that sudden moves would startle the skittish little thing. Instead of running away (it had a box only inches behind it) it chose to bite me hard enough to draw blood. I retaliated instantly by flicking it in the head. I didn't do it hard enough to make it shriek or run away. 

A few weeks later the owner went away for two months so I was looking after the rat as it and mine got on exceptionally well. She drew blood two or three more times and I retaliated the same as before. The biting stopped after a couple of days and after a couple of weeks we bonded to the point where she was always keen to be with me and ate from my hand. Previously, she had always run away with the food, even from the owner and would rather run and hide than spend time with the people she lived with. She was on my lap and I was stroking her head the way she likes it, her eyes half closed when all of a sudden she bit me very badly. I was watching her - there was no warning. The owner now accuses me of 'beating animals into submission' even though she's never seen me hit an animal and now refuses to talk to me. The person looking after her now says she loves being handled. This is a distinct change in her attitude.

My thinking is that if a rat bites a rat the bitten rat bites back. I tried to teach the rat that if doing A causes B and B is nasty, don't do B. My retaliation was instant, without hesitation so there's no chance it couldn't connect the two events and it seemed to have worked for nearly three weeks.

These are my thoughts, what are yours?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

There are better ways to teach a rat discipline by hitting it. They're a lot smaller and more fragile than we are. A hard flick to a sensitive place like the nose could seriously hurt your rat and startle it back into biting you or being afraid of your hand for good. I wouldn't like someone hitting my animals either, even if disciplinary. You want them to associate your hands with good things like food and scritches, not pain. This sounds more like aggression brought on by hormones, lack of socialization since it sounds like she's kept alone, or aggression from being mistreated. She could have neurological problems or be in pain. Rats understand rat language far better than human language, so instead of doing things like hitting it, yelling at it, blowing on it, etc. try making a high pitched squealing noise like a rat in pain/protest would. Most of them catch on pretty quickly to the fact that they are hurting you... But biting unpredictably and drawing blood sounds more like a major underlying issue than being naughty or curious.


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## chunkfromfinger (Aug 18, 2010)

I didn't flick her nose, nor did I flick hard enough to elicit a squeal or make her run off. 

She wasn't mistreated, just not tamed well. Her owner just let her run around the house instead of actually spending time with her. During the time with me she became more social very quickly. Maybe the fact that we went for three weeks without a bite suggests a mental problem, but I'm the only person she's bitten. 

So you don't think biting could be an assertion of dominance? With other animals (dogs, horses) you have to show them that they're not the boss by retaliating in kind, it's not a case of saying "ouch that hurt" to them. When you introduce rats there's often fighting to ascertain who's the boss.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

chunkfromfinger said:


> So you don't think biting could be an assertion of dominance? With other animals (dogs, horses) you have to show them that they're not the boss by retaliating in kind, it's not a case of saying "ouch that hurt" to them. When you introduce rats there's often fighting to ascertain who's the boss.


You can't really train a rat like you train a dog. They have very different natures and ways of thinking. Two rats know that they're going to establish a hierarchy when they fight. Us doing the same to them doesn't send the same message. It just tells them "Hey this person is hurting me. I'm not going to like him as much."

I read that rats have a memory of up to 3 months and while they're with you, they need to be getting the right message that we love them and we're not going to hurt them. Instead of using your flicking method, just put the rat back in it's cage. The biggest treat for any pet rat is freedom to crawl around and explore. Another option instead of flicking is to instead gently turn them on their back so that they're pin down and say no. Then let them go. They shouldn't be pinned for more than a second or else they may get scared and bite.

I am more certain than anything that physical force (hard or not) is not the right path to take with rats. It just doesn't send the same message since we're not rats. They don't understand why we do things. They form a behavior with us because they think they'll get a treat if they do something good. That's what we need to use to our own advantage while training rats.


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## chunkfromfinger (Aug 18, 2010)

I like the idea of pinning them down for a moment. I fail to see how putting them in the cage will achieve anything though - I don't see how they would know you're putting them away as punishment rather than for some other reason.


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## TamSmith (Mar 1, 2010)

chunkfromfinger said:


> I like the idea of pinning them down for a moment. I fail to see how putting them in the cage will achieve anything though - I don't see how they would know you're putting them away as punishment rather than for some other reason.


Rats have the ability to learn as they go and think about how different situations may turn out. If you continue to do it, they will learn that this will happen if they do this or this won't happen if they don't this this. They are smarter than you give them credit for.

Physical disciplin should not be used because we are not able to judge what does and doesn't hurt them (they don't always squeal or run off when they are hurt) and it can actually have the opposite effect.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

chunkfromfinger said:


> I like the idea of pinning them down for a moment. I fail to see how putting them in the cage will achieve anything though - I don't see how they would know you're putting them away as punishment rather than for some other reason.


Pinning is a natural sign saying "Hey I'm the boss here." You don't even need to do it roughly. I just pick up my rats and lay them down gently with a firm no. Force isn't really needed with rats in any situation.

As far as putting them in their cage - It's like sending a child to their bedroom. Sure, it's not THAT bad but there's also not as much to do compared to being out at the park and running around. You can pretty much think of it the same way for your rats. Rats are curious by nature. They can't help but want to check things out. By letting them have time outside their cage, you're letting them have their fun. When they're in their cage, they're confined and alone ('cept for the other rat). It's not going to be as interesting to them.

One way to reinforce when they do something wrong, as soon as they do it, scoop them up, say a firm "No" and put them away for a few hours. If you're just putting them away because playtime is over, give them a positive cue like "Time to go home, now" and give them a treat to enjoy while in their cage. They'll definitely learn the difference. 

If you can't see the putting them back as a method working for you, that's fine. I'm not here to brainwash or preach. But I just wanted to offer an alternative to your flicking method. Similar to how you don't necessarily see how putting them back would be effective, they probably don't know why you're flicking them.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

If you ever saw the shape of a rats skull, you would understand why even the smallest flick can cause damage.
The most effective method I have found would be to get her spayed and make a high pitched 'eee' noise anytime she puts her teeth on you/near you. 

I'm not sure why she bit you. You say your hands didn't smell of food... but they have a very sensitive sense of smell... they could be picking up the scent of other animals/rats on your hands. Or you may just of spooked her since she was in a new environment. They don't rely on their sight much and after she bit you.... you flicked her. Reinforcing that the scent of your hand hurt her. This method certainly does not work with dogs or horses either. (I am a qualified horse trainer and have experience training dogs) If she is a lone rat, being unsocialized could explain why she bit you in the first place.

I think putting them back in the cage only works when the rat craves to be with you... other wise they just make their own fun. I would have her out at much as possible so she can get socialized. And get her a buddy.


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> I think putting them back in the cage only works when the rat craves to be with you... other wise they just make their own fun. I would have her out at much as possible so she can get socialized. And get her a buddy.


Yea, I gotta agree with this point here. My rats are pretty crazy about being out with me and the boyfriend. It might not be as effective with a new rat.


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## chunkfromfinger (Aug 18, 2010)

stephaniechung said:


> Two rats know that they're going to establish a hierarchy when they fight. Us doing the same to them doesn't send the same message. It just tells them "Hey this person is hurting me. I'm not going to like him as much."


If that were the case then I would not have managed to train rats out of nibbling holes in cloth from an early age and still forming a close bond. I can't believe they would be unable to connect their action with mine just because I'm a different species. I don't want to seem argumentative or unpleasant here but I'll need your claim supported by evidence before I can consider it!

For anyone reading this thread (again, I don't want to sound rude here) - there's no point telling me how to treat the rat from now on - I'm never going to see it again so let's please just discuss what I have already done and how evil my actions were! My one remaining rat is PERFECT in every way and when she passes on I don't intend having more rats as I'm so frustrated by their short lifespan :-( I'll miss the crazy li'l things but I want longer lasting pets!


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## stephaniechung (Mar 9, 2010)

chunkfromfinger said:


> For anyone reading this thread (again, I don't want to sound rude here) - there's no point telling me how to treat the rat from now on - I'm never going to see it again so let's please just discuss what I have already done and how evil my actions were! My one remaining rat is PERFECT in every way and when she passes on I don't intend having more rats as I'm so frustrated by their short lifespan :-( I'll miss the crazy li'l things but I want longer lasting pets!


You asked us for our thoughts in your original posts. I gave you my thoughts. There will be people that disagree with you or me left and right. It's just a fact of life.

There's so many ways to train an animal and I am by far not the expert. I use positive reinforcement and so that was my suggestion to you for improving behavior. I didn't know you wouldn't get more rats. You're not "evil" in anyway. You gave that rat more attention than the owner that let it just run about the house. Some rats just don't take well to socializing, it could have been an accidental nip, or maybe the rattie was just overwhelmed.

I don't think you should feel bad about what the original owner said. You gave it attention and he just lets the rat run around the house. Even if I disagree with flicking, if your rats are happy, loved, and all that, you haven't done anything wrong. You really don't come off as the type to abuse your rats so I'm trusting that this flicking thing isn't doing harm.


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## chunkfromfinger (Aug 18, 2010)

I DO appreciate everyone's input, I just didn't want people wasting their time (don't take offence at that phrase please!) telling me how to do things in future when I'm not having any more ratties for the foreseeable! 

I'm glad that you have such a good opinion of me from what I've written. People who meet my animals (now a rat and a rabbit) are often surprised at how friendly they are. I've gone to people's houses with a rat and there has been a rat-hater/fearer there but after a couple of hours the sweet nature of my rats has won them over! If I leave them alone on their sofa (yes, they have their own sofa!) they always rush toward me upon my return, even the one this thread is about.

Rats make a frightful noise when you cut a nail a bit too short so I know what a rat in discomfort sounds like! They've never complained when I've flicked them. 

The owner has done very little to actually tame the rat but refuses to acknowledge that the rat is now more friendly. Furthermore, although she's never even seen me chastise an animal, accusing me of 'beating animals into submission' and refusing to have any more contact with me seems a little harsh!


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Heres a link saying why its wrong to flick ratties. They have tons more nerve endings than we do, and even the lightest tap can hurt!
http://www.ruhezuo.com/Rodents/6559082530210_rodent.htm

Also rats will not squeak every time they are hurt or startled. Its a survival instinct not to show any weakness. So you can not gauge pain levels on whether your rat squeaks or not. I am not saying you hurt the rat, or that you abused her. You just have to remember that others may read your thread and start flicking their rats because you said it worked for you. So we have to jump on things like this quickly.


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