# New Blue Rat



## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

So... I got a new rat friend for Cheddars (my one year old rat for those who dont know). I named him Provolone!  Original, I know. Provolone is very young, within a month I would guess. When he's out sniffing his nose whistles, I'm thinking nothing to be concerned about. He's scared right now, picking him up while he's exploring he squeaks. 

Other than that I've already had them sit on neutral grounds. They sniffed each other, actually Provolone started following Cheddars around almost as if naturally, but I think Cheddars wasn't too sure what to think of this new one. Before any fight started, I removed them right away. 

Any hints as I go through this process? I've already begun it.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

OMG!!! QUARINTINE!!! that rat is almost too young to even be away from the mother and you are already doing intros?? oh god i hope that you got this rat from a breeder not a pet store if it is a pet store rat chances are it is sick and now cheddars is too


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

He's well within selling age... lol I'm not sure how old, he's old enough to be away from mommy! And yes I bought this lil man from a breeder. He's very healthy trust me! I looked him over and even checked out his poop. Which arrived nice and stool like =\


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

If his nose is whistling then he might be sick!! *shakes my head and walks away*


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

*hangs head down* well crap... it only whistles when he is sniffing around. Right now he's chillin in a shoe box and I dont hear any whistle coming from him at all.


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Or it could be that your rat was born with a musical nose! You know, the positioning in the nose could be just right so that it whistles when he breathes in and out.

Or that's complete bull that I pulled out of nowhere and you should get it checked out and quarantine him.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

You know reessm01, Stephanie is trying to tell you what "needs" to be done for the health and safety of this new baby and you arnt giving her any credit. YES that is very young, too young even, to be starting intros, and you havent even quarintined??? You do know that just becuase a rat looks fine doesnt mean that it could carry something that can be passed along to your older rat. You said that Provolone's nose is making a whistling sound...that right there couldnt be good. It can be anything and your just going to think nothing off it. Yeah it may not be happening all the time, but it may progess into something even more serious down the road...things like this take time! You are in a rat forum for a reason, if you are doing something wrong people are going to try to help you. Some people here have had rats for YEARS and have so much more experiance that you and you need to appreciate that and hopefully do the right thing by using what they are teaching you. Obviously you know nothing about how to properly introduce rats since you are here asking for our help, so here: QUARINTINE is the first step. I know that you are in a hurry, but seriously its for the best of both rats. If your not willing to take people advise then your setting yourself up for even bigger problems that will most likey end up with a new thread in the "Over The Rainbow Bridge" section. I know it sounds horrible, but I really dont care anymore. There are a good handful of people on here who arnt doing what they should be doing for the good of there rats, and people who just try to help arnt getting the credit that they deserve...


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

I think the worest part of all of this is it doesn't matter if she quarintines now or not. There is no way that a responsible breeder wouol not have told you what to do for intro's and if you had just read through even the first ten posts on every file here before doing this you would have known that quarintine is the first adn most important step in introductions. There are NASTY viruses out there that any rat can have. Way back when I had bought the most adorable three week old rat from a petstore and had no clue about quarintine I proceeded to loose six rats in a little under three weeks!!!! I am so sick of repeating myself on this forum and I am sick of nobody doing their research prior to getting pets. Everyone comes on here and it's all about oh look it's sooo cute and i am trying so hard to do quarintine but you people don't seem to understand that your rats lives are at stake in all of this. I feel like everyone here is jsut saying things that they want people to hear. I mean there are posts about Kaytee still being fed to peoples rats because they like it!! Kaytee has known carcenagins in it!! A petstore rat or even a breeder rat can be sick and when you bring it home you need to make sure your other rats are safe and do at LEAST a two week quarintine if not three. And that quarintine is supposed to start fromt he day of the LAST SIGNS OF SICKNESS. A whistling nose is a wheeze which could mean URI which is contagious which could turn into pneumonia or SDA or anything else. Cheddar could have SDA antibodies and you might not even know it. SDA is basically like AIDS it doesn't kill the rat but it weakens the immune system greatly. There might not be any signs of illness whatsoever then BOOM dead rat!!! ugh *throws my hands up in frustration* That is it I will not come back to this mess when people are this ignorant and niave and lazy. No one seems to look anyhting up for themselves anymore. There are a million posts in one folder all pertaining to the same thing. I quit!!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Steph you need to take a step back. You are here to advise and suggest and educate, its a needed thing. This will continue to happen, where people come in and say the same things over and over, you could suggest the Search function, that can help but I don't know how good the one on Rat Forum is. 

I get frustrated too. It hurts physically sometimes. I just lost 3 girls I was hoping to save/adopt because the guy kept them outside and the raccoons got them...I had to get off all forums then and cry for those poor rats. :'(

Take a breather and come back when you are able.

To the original poster, reessm01, when you get a new rat, you should always quarantine for 2 weeks first. Preferably in a different building/airspace but if not, then a separate room, with handwashing and clothese changes between handling for resident rats and newbie. Although for the real killer diseases that are airborne this won't do much.

There are some horrific contagious diseases out there. SDA, Sendai, etc... These will/can kill ALL your rats and quickly. You may be able to save some with quick action and some strong antibiotics. THEN you and your colony go into a lockdown quarantine for 6-8 weeks after the virus has run its course and there are survivors. This means, no handling your rat and going to the petstore, for vet visits (and there will be many) you have to make sure that your vet is not seeing any other rats within 3 hours of seeing yours. The virus can come home with you and it can live 3 hours on your clothes and even in your sinus cavities...

I know of many people who got infected with SDA, they lost rats, they lost sleep, they were exhausted and grieving. THIS is why we quarantine!!!

http://www.petratscanada.com/sda.htm

And you should always let a baby acclimate to your home before doing anything stressful like intro's. Also if your baby is 4 weeks old, some males don't recognize a baby as a rat but as food if they are really young, and have been known to kill. I would say a minimum for introducing to Cheddar would be 6 weeks.


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

I wasn't aware of a 3 week quaranteen. And again, my blue rat isn't THAT young. LIke I said I don't know how old selling a rat is aceptable, but this young one is there. He could be sold and introduced safely (provided with everyone's advice). 

I wasn't taking anyone's advice for granted, I don't know where that came from. I'm just ignorant and stupid, cut me a break! I'll the quaranteen and may even have Provolone inspected by a vet. Thanks.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sadly QT is broken, so there's no point now. And a vet will not be able to see a deadly virus incubating. You might as well save your money unless symptoms show up.

I'll give you an idea about ages of baby rats and why some people are upset. WE cannot tell how old your wee one is.

With my oops litter, I removed the boys from the girls at just under 5 weeks old. Mom had already started weaning them. The girls I left with mom and she weaned them at about 5.5 weeks plus.

Petstores often will remove babies from their moms earlier than they should. For eg. Dilbert was removed from his mom (feeder bin) at 2 weeks old when he still needed to be syringefed formula and encouraged to eliminate. I got him at 3 weeks old, still waaay too young to be away from mom but able to eat solid food on his own, and eliminate without encouragement. Some petstores wean at 3 weeks old because they look like baby rats but thats too young too. See what I mean?

Here are some pics to help you age your baby since you aren't sure.

3 week old babies 








4 week old babies








4.5 week old babies (boys were separated soon after)








5 week old baby








6 weeks









Just remember my babies got good care/food from before birth so they are more solid and possibly bigger than petstore babies of the same age since they got supplemented properly.

Live and learn about the QT, thats why you should ask questions first.


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

I'd say about 5 weeks perhaps? I can't tell by that last picture how exactly big your 6 week is there. Got another one?


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## Lesath (Jul 14, 2007)

I just wanted to add my experience in here. I recently lost two rats in a row after brining home a seemingly healthy young rat and only quarantined for about a week. The day after I introduced him to my rats I found one dead. The next day one was extremely ill and passed a few days later. That little baby rat (Stanley) is still doing great, never showed any signs of illness at all. But I have to assume he introduced something to my ratties that made them ill. Everyone got kind of sick but now they are on baytril and doing GREAT.

Sure taught me the important lesson of quarantine, I've quarantined for 3-4 weeks in the past, but I got really lazy with the newest arrival and I lost two wonderful rats due to my lazyiness. It's an awful feeling. The good thing is that we can learn from our mistakes.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Baby Bear at 5 weeks








Baby Tootsie at 5 weeks (she left for her new home soon after)








PEW girls 5 weeks...notice the filled out bodies, ratlike heads etc.









Angel my runt at 6 weeks...small rats now








Tucker at 6 weeks








Angel, Megan and their mom Bronwen (Bronny would be 5.5 months here)









Does this help?


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

Stephanie asked me to post this as she will no longer be on here and wanted to clear up any confusion as to why she has left. 



LilSpaz68 said:


> Steph you need to take a step back. You are here to advise and suggest and educate, its a needed thing. This will continue to happen, where people come in and say the same things over and over, you could suggest the Search function, that can help but I don't know how good the one on Rat Forum is.
> 
> I get frustrated too. It hurts physically sometimes. I just lost 3 girls I was hoping to save/adopt because the guy kept them outside and the raccoons got them...I had to get off all forums then and cry for those poor rats. :'(
> 
> Take a breather and come back when you are able."


 Unfortunately I don't think I will be able to. Lately this forum has been nothing but a head ache. People think they are getting rats because they are cute. They don't do any research. reessm01 had previously asked how to go about introductions and onlyono lined it all out clearly and neatly and she was still ignored. Then Vixie put in BIG BOLD letters about quarantine tie and she was also ignored. It is this kind of stupidity that makes me have an actual physical reaction. People that ask for advice and then don't listen when it is something as serious as life and death make me sick to my stomach.
I am willing to put a lot of money on the fact that this new blue rat was NOT from a REPUTABLE breeder. There are backyard breeders out there that say their rats are healthy with out knowing any different. I had a rat from a breeder that had a urinary tract infection his entire life because the breeder didn't know that rats could get them.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

I am sick of repeating myself over and over and over again when no one even bothers to listen. I feel like this is a huge waste of my time. I look at this forum and read the posts and all I can think is why on earth would anyone be so irresponsible as this?
I made my SEVEN year old son do research on his GOLDFISH before I let him get them. He fully takes care of them and even wants to take them to a vet when he thinks they are sick. He has done research on the web and in the library, talked to pet stores, talked to our vet everything. How is it that a SEVEN YEAR OLD BOY is a more responsible pet owner than someone who is taking on an animal that is known to have respiratory issues??? 
It boggles my mind that there is this much information posted in one area and people that are coming here and looking for help are so ignorant and well stupid that they honestly just pass everything over because they think we are bowing smoke up their asses. Well here is some information for you people out there that read this and think I am full of it.

I treat most of my rats myself prior to taking them to the vets and can recognize symptoms of most all things out there that a rat can get. I have treated abscesses and illness for a long time. I have looked up everything I can on the web, I talk to other people constantly, I volunteer for a rescue, I do everything I can to educate people but when it comes to dealing with ignorant people that are not willing to take any advice into consideration AFTER they asked for it themselves I just can't respect that. I can not say hey at least the are trying. Look at all of the horrible things that have happened and people say well at least they are trying to learn. So many people here have posted several contradicting facts they say one thing one minute and the complete opposite the next. People let their rats go outside because the male was biting the female and taking the babies. 
And people here jsut look the other way. Well I can no longer sit on the side and say nothing I am done and that means I will not be coming back. Mods were put in place on this forum to help organize things and it seems that they are trying but there are still multiple posts that make no sense. People here have gotten so that they don't say it how it is when someone puts a rats life in danger. Granted reessm01 may doing the best she can BUT there is something to be said about ignoring 2 people about qt.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

I am done with this site for a long long time if I ever come back. I want to thank all of the people that have listened to everyone's advice here and none of this is meant for you. I also would liek to apologize to anyone I have offended but I just couldn't keep my mouth shut anymore. For god sake DO YOUR RESEARCH, listen to those who are trying to help and think of your rats health before how well they will get along with another rat.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

reessm01 said:


> He's well within selling age... lol I'm not sure how old, he's old enough to be away from mommy! And yes I bought this lil man from a breeder. He's very healthy trust me!





reessm01 said:


> Like I said I don't know how old selling a rat is acceptable, but this young one is there. He could be sold and introduced safely (provided with everyone's advice).
> 
> I wasn't taking anyone's advice for granted, I don't know where that came from.


I really donâ€™t understand what youâ€™re saying here. First you say you know he's within selling age, then you say you donâ€™t know what selling age is acceptable? And who's advise gave you the impression the he could be safely introduced? You have been told more than once that you must quarantine first... :arrow: 



reessm01 said:


> I wasn't aware of a 3 week quarantine.


http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2716.html
http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2675.html

lilspaz68 - I know youâ€™re doing your best to help, but you need to understand that itâ€™s getting to the point where people ARE NOT listening. Itâ€™s different when someone asks a question over and over again but has generally followed what people have been telling them and makes an attempt at it, rather than someone who asks over and over again, makes no attempt at all to follow more experienced rat owners advise and expects people to not get frustrated at them. I understand that Stephanie has had itâ€¦and for good reason, and so have I. I remember when Night come to this forum and she commented on pretty much everyoneâ€™s thread saying what we were doing wrong, and most people here were mad about it, even I was, but you know whatâ€¦I got over it and realized she was right!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I totally understand what you are all saying...it can be brutal to see the same posts over and over, see the ignorance and the neglect, and suffering...its taxing, but when you are getting physically ill, its definitely time to take a break.  I was like that on another forum myself. I actually left for months but I had to go back and help the more knowlegeable of the members teach the newbies and to counter some really awful advice from the Admins.

Now my friend started up a much better forum and I am helping moderate it, so I have my forum again.
I know this is your Home Forum and you have agonized over each post and gotten to know the members much better than I have, who comes in, posts and flees.. :roll: .

I just wanted you to understand that I relate, and feel your pain.

Take care ((hugs))


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

lilspaz68 - Thank you for your understanding. Whats your friends forum called?


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

Her choice is all I have to say. I didnt buy rats because I thought they were "cute". Enthuasts dog owners quaranteen their animals as well. I am going to continue the introductions as I have already messed that one up. My rats will be fine, and if they die, it'll suck, but atleast you can say I told you so, but acting so profound is rubbish, I see her reaction worse than a troll on forums. But once again, her choice.

I have found out recently that Provolone is 3 months old. 

Looking at those pics he looks well of age when compared to your cute ratties. 

I apologize for the heart ache.


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

Here's a recent pic of him taken minutes ago:


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

reessm01 said:


> Her choice is all I have to say. I didnt buy rats because I thought they were "cute". Enthuasts dog owners quaranteen their animals as well. I am going to continue the introductions as I have already messed that one up. My rats will be fine, and if they die, it'll suck, but atleast you can say I told you so, but acting so profound is rubbish, I see her reaction worse than a troll on forums. But once again, her choice.


... :? What the heck are you talking about? Why did you buy rats then and what, Enthuasts? Do you mean enthusiastic? What do dogs owners have to do with this? Any responsible pet owner quarantine's their pets. I dont fine saying "I told you so" very enjoyable at all, I think its rather childish. How can you even say that anyways! I would rather your rats live than get the opportunity to say that. Its a life! Your baby! It'll suck, thats all you can say? I find that very disturbing and sad! Acting profound isnt a bad things at all! I find Stephanie very insightful thoughtful, reflective...All she ever tried to do is help you and you throw back close minded, offensive, comments. I mean come on? Worst than a troll? How so? For trying to aid and instruct you? Yeah, it is her choice...and shes made it very clear that she's done trying to help you. If your going to act ignorant thats YOUR choice, but remember that if your rats die its your fault. Even before you posted this thread, people have instructed you on how you properly quarantine the new baby. You need to start owning up to your responsibilities and taking in what people are telling you is one of them.


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

I don't get what the problem is. :? She didn't know about QT.... now she does and she said she will do it next time.


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## Mana (Apr 22, 2007)

She was told to quarantine in those two threads JennieLove linked to, and one of them specified having to keep the rats separated for at least 2 weeks..


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

Thank you for pointing that out. Somehow I missed it.

Yes, now I see what the problem is. reessm01, you really should listen when you are givin LIFE SAVING advice. People do not QT for shits and giggles. Its all about ensuring a healthy life for the other rat(s).

I know some of the members here are frustraited, but please do not leave. There is much more people that will come here who need to be educaited. Some won't listen, some will get upset, but some will take that advice to heart.

In the end I think that makes it worth staying.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

Wow, I can't believe I read all that 

First, to reessm01 - don't be offended with how harshly some of the replies were to you. Those who posted responses probably should have been a bit more gentle, but they are very passionate about their love and care for all ratkind. You are learning and they could have been more subtle with their teachings. 

Second, to the aggressive posters - you are all so wonderful and caring, but I find it sad that the responses were so emotional and judgmental. You aren't going to do any ratties any good by going around screaming at people who make honest mistakes. She came here for advice and although she made some mistakes, she didn't do any harm (yet) and teaching her the proper way to introduce seems so much more useful to me than yelling at her - especially about things she cannot possible go back and change at this point.

Lastly, we all need to remember that it is extremely hard to express emotions on such places as forums, so saying anything can carry whatever connotation the reader ascribes to it, so it's always best to be gentle when in doubt. But again, people who are passionate about protecting little ratties are priceless. 

I hope that Stephanie doesn't leave in the end over such a thing


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## cjshrader (Feb 15, 2007)

Wow reessm01 you really opened up a can of worms, didn't you? Two high-profile members leaving over one post. Welcome to the forums!


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

I wasn't looking for trouble. They are the ones that overreacted. I'm over it.


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## cjshrader (Feb 15, 2007)

I wouldn't exactly say they overreacted. I can see where they are coming from entirely.


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

As can I, but being all dramatic about it... I question that.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

The other posters are very passionate about what they believe, which is great. 

However, I too felt that they over-reacted, especially given that it was a mistake that was made. Have they never made a mistake in their lives? Did they come into being fully equipped with all the knowledge and experience in the world? No, I doubt it. 

I feel that it is wrong and cruel to point fingers and say that reessm01 "caused" them to leave - NO ONE can "cause" such a thing. 

If it was their frustration that caused them to leave (which I believe strongly is temporarily anyway) then they should learn to be more patient and kind with their interactions. 

IF YOU'RE UPSET THAT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY CARE FOR EVERY ISSUE A RAT MIGHT HAVE - DON'T LEAVE!! STAY AND HELP, BUT DO SO KINDLY - YOU CHOOSE TO BE HERE, IS IT ONLY TO SHAME OTHERS OR TO HELP RATTIES?? 

Did reessm01 do the right thing? No. 
Did she mean to hurt her rats? No.
Did she come here for advice? Yes.
Is she TRYING to do the best she can and learning from her mistakes? I would hope so, but with cruel messages, NO ONE is going to benefit. 

I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion and the best thing to do is remember that WE ARE ALL HUMAN AND CAPABLE OF MAKING MISTAKES!

I hope that the ladies come back, and I hope that people will stop being arrogant and pointing fingers unjustly.


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## cjshrader (Feb 15, 2007)

I just want to throw out there that I don't think it's reessm01's fault that they left. She was just the last straw to those two. You haven't been here as long as them, rattikins, and I think over time answering the same question over and over and over again really starts to wear down on you. Especially when the answers are ignored. This time, it just caused them to snap.

The reason they posted so strongly about this is that it wasn't as simple as a "mistake." The other rat's life was in danger due to this, and they are tired of seeing people put rats' lives in danger over and over again.

Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I haven't been a bad rat owner myself at times. They don't get out as much as I'd like. Sometimes, the litter gets changed a few days too late. But these things aren't going to seriously harm my rats.

I also won't say that I've never not introduced two rats immediately without quarantine. I have, back when I thought I'd done tons of research but really I still didn't know much about rats. I wish I'd had these forums then, because even though nothing bad happened something certainly could have. And I think that's the biggest issue here, not listening to the advice of other rat owners when it's so accurately given.

In any case, I didn't mean to jump into this discussion and have said just about all there is for me to say about it. Any other points to be made have already been made.


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## reessm01 (Jul 24, 2007)

Thank you! I totally agree with you in all that you said there. I'm not on here to push people away.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

cjshrader said:


> I just want to throw out there that I don't think it's reessm01's fault that they left.


Okay, so then explain what you said to reessm here - "Wow reessm01 you really opened up a can of worms, didn't you? Two high-profile members leaving over one post." 

Sure sounds like you're blaming her to me... And what a mean thing to do, when you now admit that it was just the last straw of frustration. Shame. 




cjshrader said:


> The reason they posted so strongly about this is that it wasn't as simple as a "mistake." The other rat's life was in danger due to this, and they are tired of seeing people put rats' lives in danger over and over again.


Yes, it was a mistake. Mistakes can be grand or small. This COULD have been a terrible situation, but we don't know if it will be or not, so to yell at someone about something they CANNOT change is cruel. 

Explain to her what she did wrong, don't castrate her for a past mistake! 




cjshrader said:


> Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I haven't been a bad rat owner myself at times.... But these things aren't going to seriously harm my rats.... I also won't say that I've never not introduced two rats immediately without quarantine.


Wow, so you're actually admitting to having done the same thing, even after research, yet reessm gets NO understanding for innocently doing the wrong thing... hmmm....



cjshrader said:


> In any case, I didn't mean to jump into this discussion


Clearly that is exactly what you wanted to do. 



*I think that Reessm is due apologies from many people. It's not okay to vent frustration out on others simply because you've heard a question too often. If you don't like answering questions, then why the heck are you on a forum?*


Not everyone will come here FIRST, but the purpose of the forum is to educate people, and hopefully if done politely, this can get the message out there to others, hopefully before they make a mistake. 


And reessm, was your last post to me? It posted after their comment so I'm not sure


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## cjshrader (Feb 15, 2007)

Wow my first forum argument, I'm ever-so-excited!

1) I wasn't blaming reessm. I was just saying that it was her post that finally set them off. If I thought it was reessm's fault, I would have said it.

2) I can't really explain anything more to her beyond what was already explained. I'm not even castrating her?

3) Ah but the difference between me and reessm is that reessm KNEW better from those other posts. I did not know, and now that I do, I'd do things differently.

I have read over my first post and it does sound a little accusatory, so I will apologize for that. I was actually trying to lighten up the mood a little bit.

As to your "if you don't like answering questions, why are you on a forum" line, I think it is proper forum etiquette in any forum to search for an answer before you go posting topics. It's lazy and a little rude to do otherwise. 

I hate to pick on reessm here, but lack of searching is rampant in these forums. If she'd spent a little time to look, she could have easily found all the information she'd ever need on introductions and diseases and everything.

Why does everyone have to be so angry on the internet? It's cool, I already said everything I wanted to say and was perfectly willing to drop it. All the relevant points have been made to reessm and I only wish other new people would read these posts.


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## rattikins (Jun 12, 2007)

Sorry to disappoint you but I will not engage in any sort of forum war with you.

I felt that what you said was wrong, accusative, and unnecessary. 

You feel that it was okay.

We won't agree, and I feel that it has been brought to light both that she was treated harshly AND that the other members had passionate feelings about an important topic. It all was greatly blown out of proportion.

End of story. 

I have nothing against you, and I believe that you now feel that perhaps you were a bit too aggressive, so we're all good.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

Im still here. lol and I didnt feel I or Steph overreacted at all...


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

Enough is enough. This is no longer about helping a new member, and has in fact turned into a pointless argument. 

Locked.


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