# I booked the neuter today and I can't stop thinking about it



## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Okay, so I've had mixed opinions from a variety of sources on my energetic little bully rat, Badger, and today, after witnessing two instances where he puffed up and chased each of my boys despite the fact that they weren't fighting back, I've decided to go ahead and book the neuter. I'm still not 100% if I want to go through with it but I have a week to decide now. 

Thanks to the advice on this forum, I've managed to get my older boys more confident when coming out of the the cage again (previously, they were too scared to leave the hammock when Badger was free ranging the room, even though the cage door was left open for them), so I feel like I've made some sort of progress there. 

I don't know it's just me reading more personality into my boys than what is actually there, but this is how the situations looks to me, and I'd really love if someone could confirm if it sounds plausible or not: 
When Badger chases/fights either of my other two boys, I yell at him and he stops briefly and looks at me. Sometimes he'll stop completely. Sometimes I have to intervene by bopping him on the nose and separating them. He's still never bitten me badly (had a couple of warning nips when I've picked him up against his will - was not happy with that), and he does genuinely seem sorry once his fur has settled back down flat against his body. I feel like, in that brief moment, the hormones take over, and he just has to fight something, even if it's not a threat. I feel like the fact that my other boys aren't fighting back is the reason there haven't been any serious injuries so far. Is it possible for Badger to get blinded by a hormonal rage intermittently, only for him to become a sweetie again once it has subsided? If so, I have high hopes for this neuter. If I am just reading too much into his body language, I'm scared and unsure again. 

I worry that all of my negative reinforcement is damaging my relationship with Badger. While he still loves to climb all over me and in my clothes, I don't think he views me as safe anymore. I'll give him loads of strokes and cuddles as and when I can (if he's ever still enough), but I don't think he's an affectionate rat, full stop. While my other boys will settle down with me for a bit when they're tired, or run at me when they scare themselves with a loud noise or if Badger is chasing them, Badger just seems to view me as "that person that gets in the way when I'm doing my thing". I hope to rebuild our relationship properly once I've sorted out the cage dynamics once and for all, by whatever ends up happening :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

What you describe sounds like when my sisters dog bit me. He was distressed and hellbent on doing activity x and instinctively bit what stopped that. It was high emotions, I've also had it happen in straight dog fights where they are rearin to bite something but you are in the way. He will need a hospital cage for at least a week while the wounds heal so go ahead and separate now. This will give you two weeks of him solo and tons of time for love with no punishment. 


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

I just had him out for some alone time and it was nice. My other two were asleep. The boyfriend had just got home from work too, and he hasn't seen them properly for a while, so we got him out. It was fun - Badger used my boyfriend as a human ramp to get to the windowsill and my boyfriend took mock offence, and he came straight back down and started grooming his face apologetically - and then the other two realised my boyfriend was home and got excited and came out as well. And Badger started on Athos for no reason inside of the cage >.> and then Badger was on the computer chair and Thaddius was on me, but he looked like he wanted to go see Badger, so I was all "here you go" and lifted him onto the chair. Thaddius sniffed at Badger, and Badger started sidling up to him, so Thaddius ran back to me. 

It's just such a mix of behaviour, it gets me very confused 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In training rats, sometimes I've learned that rats just get stuck on an idea and no matter how hard you try, there's nothing you can do to change a rat's mind. Fuzzy Rat wanted to get into the closet so she tried to tunnel through the carpet to get under the door. I stopped her and blocked her and threw things at her and yelled and bopped and yet she finally hit the hardwood floor and gave up on her idea and I have a hole in my carpet to show for all of my efforts. 

I find humans are very much like rats in this regard. (no disrespect to either humans or rats intended) There's no way for you to know for sure what's under the carpet until you tunnel through it. So, it looks like you've plotted out your course of action and you have my sincerest best wishes that it helps. Your rat, your decision and I know you are doing it out of love.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Rat Daddy, I feel that you are very against my decision to neuter and I completely respect that as I'm not even 100% yet. I've worked with all three boys to the best of my abilities, I feel, and I've worked with Badger alone (although he's always been pretty sweet with me, so that's probably not as important), and I have seen an improvement in overall behaviour. Thaddius and Athos don't spend all night in their hammock anymore, and will come out for free range, even if Badger is around. Badger no longer ONLY chases the other boys when he's out, and will actually ignore them now in favour of doing his own thing. 

I genuinely think that Badger is the smartest of all three of my rats. But if he's getting a surge of hormones that he's finding it hard to control which causes him to lash out every now and then, would not neutering maybe perhaps slightly work?

That's a genuine question, I'm a first time rat owner. I've learnt A LOT, both about rats and relationships since getting my first two boys, but I don't profess to always know the best way to go about handling problems. I'm trying my best to describe what I'm having to deal with to see if neutering will work, but obviously I know that, at the end of the day, I'm the only one who knows my rats. I feel like this decision would be easier if he was aggressive all of the time, or if he regularly drew blood with me, but he's not. He just lashes out, seemingly from no where. And for a rat who I KNOW is intelligent, and I KNOW he knows he shouldn't do it, and I KNOW he listens to me when I yell at him, it just really feels like it's an uncontrollable moment of hormonal rage that takes over him, probably because he's trying to be alpha of a pack that has no threats. 

I am TERRIFIED of taking him for this neuter. He's just come off a 4 week course of meds to hopefully cure him of a potentially chronic URI. There's probably a very strong possibility that the vet will refuse the neuter entirely anyway, but the younger I do this, the more chance of success he'll have, I presume. 

I know you're very experienced in the world of rats and rat training and so therefore I will take everything you say super seriously. If you think I haven't tried hard enough to get my happy rat family relationship back, where 2/3 of my mischief don't freeze in terror when their "alpha" is near them, please please do tell me. I want to learn. And I'd love to do it without putting my little boy through dangerous surgery 


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Also, without trying to sound like I'm justifying my actions, Badger has been getting very jumpy lately. That's not necessarily because he's a skittish unsocial rat - he takes food from the hand, regularly licks and grooms me, and happily digs into my clothes and walks onto my hand or shoulder when they're offered. But if I try and stroke him, he jumps. I don't know if this is because he just doesn't like being touched when it's not on his terms, but during my hours of research last night with rat neutering, I did read that a rat who is in perma-aware mode is a danger to himself and is likely to have a heart attack before he reaches a year and a half. I don't know if Badger falls into this category or not, but if a neuter would help him relax and not think that the world is out to get him so he needs to be on his guard all the time, I think that'd be a real benefit...

But, as I've said, Im inexperienced and don't profess to know exactly what I'm seeing. I'm just making assumptions based in what I've read and how my rats behave. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I was blessed to learn from a super smart and exceptional rat... as a former psychology sociology double major she quickly trashed all of my preconceptions and I had to stop and listen. Although she never bit me and for much of her life didn't have a roommate, when she got bored she got destructive. Yes when we had plenty of time to spend with her she could be trusted to wander the house as she pleased.... but if we were too busy with daily life she took it out on our electrical wires.... it's like she thought they were her enemy and in fact they were... the phone, computer and other electrical distractions were often at least part of the reason she was being ignored.... and if she really got unhappy she could literally cause hundreds of damage in just a few hours time. I doubt that there's a single wire or cable in my house I haven't soldered and taped. And by the way like a bad little child looking for attention, it worked and we kept her with us when she was out of the cage rather than just set her lose and ignore her.

I believe you are absolutely right and Badger is your most intelligent rat. He's acting out partially because he's bored and unchallenged and partially to communicate to you. I'm not there so I can't interpret what he's saying and when but it does seem to me that his issues are behavioral. And I'm guessing that he's happier that he is now getting recognition and attention. That would be the improvement you have noticed. You are giving him more attention and interaction and he is responding by being nicer as he sees it benefits him to treat you and his roomies with more respect and affection. The fact that giving him more affection and attention is coincidental with him becoming nicer seems to support the hypothesis that his actions for whatever reason are intentional rather than "hormonal".

But to be clear hormonal and behavioral issues are intertwined. Not being a girl, I'm out of my depth here, other than what I've observed, but human women have hormonal influences too, and some handle them way better than others. The idea that women can't control their hormones and therefore can't have responsible jobs is long since history at least for the more enlightened public. Yes, I'm sure that self control may be harder some times than other's but overall billions of ladies worldwide manage to get through their lives without killing their obnoxious boyfriends and husbands or drowning their rampaging children. 

Now, it's true that certain humans and rats have issues so severe that they lose control, but statistically the likelihood you have one of these rats is low. Furthermore, studies on rats showed that if a group of rats is left alone one rat will become the leader, or alpha, and it will have elevated hormones. It will grow larger and become more dominant and usually more controlling and protective of it's pack. When another rat displaces the old alpha the old alpha's hormones usually returned to normal so he could fit back into the pack social order. So opportunity causes rats to elevate their hormone levels and circumstances causes them to reduce them again. "Hormones" in a vacuum really doesn't exist. 

In humans, male hormone levels are similarly dependent on circumstances. For example have you ever been pulled over by a relatively new cop? He's got one hand on his ticket book and the other on his gun... he's all wired for a fight before you even roll down your window. Someone pinned a badge on him and his hormones are all elevated because now he's got to be an alpha and lead and protect the general public. The same is true of war fighters. Formerly nice easy going guys come home from war and a few days later their beloved spouses are in the emergency room, 4 years of love poems from the front and the first thing the guy does when he gets home is break his wife's nose for asking him to take out the trash. What happened was that the war fighter's hormone level was at max to survive in a very hostile environment and when he gets home it takes a while for him to return to normal. But for the most part most war fighters do recover and return to society and their responses become normal over time. Yes, I realize I'm using human behavior to explain rat behavior, but it works so often in the converse that I think it's fair to do it.

When diagnosing psychiatric illness, part of the process is diagnosis. In young ladies for example when psychotic episodes tend to recur monthly they can be attributed to a hormonal interaction with some other preexisting neurological condition. But this is less common in males. Steroid abusers for example get quick tempered and impulsive and have anger issues, but it doesn't follow an off and on cycle. Generally in males a hormonal imbalance produces a general state of agitation. So it's hard to explain why Badger would have episodes of aggression and then be calm and normal again using a model of "hormonal" aggression alone.

So, to try to answer your question directly... do Badger's hormones play a role in his behavior? Most likely yes, about as much as yours do. It is part of his "personality" as much as yours or mine are.

Is the best fix neutering? Personally for the reasons I listed above, I believe the best fix is behavioral. Even if his hormones are elevated over time with proper human attention and leadership they will subside or he can learn to better control them. If Badger is in fact a very smart rat and needs more challenges then neutering is absolutely not going to help. In fact he can get more antisocial because of the trauma he would go through.

Can neutering help a little? The answer is yes but only if the problem is hormonal. And whether it would help better than giving him more challenging things to do and more of your time and hands on attention, even if there is a hormonal element to his behavior, can be fairly called into question. But there are surgical risks, and the risk that there will be no improvement in his behavior, and the possibility that things can actually get worse due to the surgical experience.

Anecdotally, you are going to find when you read the threads, that some people have had several male rats that have been neutered, and other's that have had similar numbers of male rats none of which have ever been neutered. This means that either some folks are better at choosing rats or there is a difference in the way they raise them. For the most part, stay at home moms and empty-nesters seem to have the best luck with male rats and folks with busy schedules and multiple jobs tend to have the biggest problems. There is also a correlation between people with a very firm handed approach to those that tend to be more passive and "don't like to bother" their rats and how much aggression they see. 

I'm pretty sure if Fuzzy Rat never became a true shoulder rat and didn't live a life of constant action and drama she would have become a nightmare, in winter when we couldn't take her out much she would get genuinely unhappy so we dragged her out even when it was below freezing to go to stores and restaurants and tried to give her more indoor attention. But she was a very intelligent rat, possibly very much like Badger and I can easily see where she would have behaved very much like him if she didn't have her humans to bounce off of and communicate with.

You have a tough decision, because you obviously do have a problem. And it's your call, whatever you decide it's because you love your rats, so no one is going to fault you either way. I do believe that if you challenge Badger and work hands on with him and assume your role as his undisputed alpha it would fix the problem. You might even find that you have an exceptional rat like Fuzzy Rat. On the other hand, well there's no way to know for sure what will happen after the surgery. It can turn out to be the best decision for your situation.

When my father broke his hip at 90 years old and I finally got in charge of his care, I tried to do everything right about half the time things worked out for the better, and about half the time things got worse. In the end he died at 92 despite every effort I made. There were just so many things beyond my control that I couldn't factor into the equation. Finally, complicit with the doctor I had chosen and my father's return to relative competency his third wife got him out of the care facility and dragged him home to die two days later, thereby ending a four week recovery that had taken me every effort to engineer. So I learned in the hardest way possible that all you can do is what you believe to be right; at best the outcome is always a gamble. You can't predict the future with any certainty, or take back your decisions no matter how badly you might want to. Uncertainty and regret are part of life. I thought Fuzzy Rat was about the least attractive rat pup in the store, but my daughter fell in love with her at first sight. I put Fuzzy Rat back in the bin at least 3 times, I really couldn't imagine having a short nose, square pudgy rat with a black stain off center on her back. Now, I can't imagine what my life would have been without her. Sometimes when you are dead wrong, you can even come up as a winner. So I suppose consider the advise you have gotten, factor in your special circumstances and do what you feel is right, that's the very best you can do regardless of my or anyone else's opinion.

Best luck.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Thank you for the time you put into that post, Rat Daddy  it has given me a lot to think about with my boys. I really can't imagine challenging Badger the way you challenged Fuzzy Rat though. As much as I'd have to have a rat like yours, Badger is far too deep in his teeange okee era dashre. CDC ,I 

...he just walked across the iPad. I thought maybe autocorrect would help me understand him more, but apparently not. He just peed on my iPad.

Now he's just deleted everything I've said....sigh...

Anyway, he's so far into his teenage "I'm going to ignore everything you say" phase right now. He'll play with me with a cat toy for a bit, but then he'll get bored. He'll humour me with trick training for a but, but them he'll get bored. When free ranging, he gets pretty much all of my attention constantly. I don't just get them out and stick the tv on. He won't stay put if I take him out of the rat room, and he's a bit of a wire chewer (although so far, only the cheapest wires), so I cannot risk him let loose in the house as I rent, and it's an odd situation where I'm currently living with my landlord in the house anyway. I make do with the space and time I have. He sleeps a lot anyway. Free range is usually always dictated by him - if he's awake, we'll play until he falls alseep, because if we don't, he'll tear up the cage. 

Maybe he does need more of a challenge, but I don't really know how to go about doing that to be honest...I'm not comfortable enough to take him outside :/


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Okay, I've just had a chat with my boyfriend and we're both in agreement that we just want what's best for all of the boys. He suggested getting a lead and harness for Badger so we could feel more comfortable taking him places. I've never really thought of that, because I know rats are natural escapes artists, and Badger is so squirmy anyway that I can't imagine getting a harness on him would be too easy. I know your opinion on rat leads, Rat Daddy, but I really don't have enough confidence in myself as an owner to take him places without such a thing. This could work, especially because hormones have pumped him so big right now that the lead may actually be difficult to squirm out of....

I'm considering postponing the neuter until we've given this try. My main concern now is that my two older boys are still frightened of Badger. He doesn't even really do anything to them - he squeezes himself underneath them, nips and grooms, pushes his face into their bits, but that's mostly it. Earlier on tonight, he did get a little puffy, but I told him off and moved him away and he's settled down. He does keep trying to stand taller/above the other boys though, even through they don't challenge him. (As an aside, should Badger not be comfortable I'm his position of alpha at the moment so as not to need to show off about it every other second?) Badger's behaviour basically often results in my older boys freezing when he's around. It's like they're walking on eggshells around him constantly because they're worried he's going to explode at any second. 

Although, saying that, I did just spend a while teaching Badger a trick (until he started stashing the treats instead of eating them) and now he's being a a good as anything in the cage with Thaddius. They're taking it in turns to groom one another. Badger stops grooming if Thaddius squeaks. Thaddius isn't running away from Badger anymore....ugh, all of this mixed behaviour is so confusing...

....

And now, seconds after that, Badger pushed his luck, got puffed up a bit, there was some squeaking, and now Thaddius looks scared again...this is my life at the moment :/ 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There's a fine line between raising a football star and a street thug. Both would have similar blood hormone levels and while one is tearing up the playing field weekends the other is all behind steel bars much of the time. Still for the most part either individual is on the aggressive range of normal and doesn't suffer any real mental disorder.

The mixed signals you are talking about is Badger responding to you. He's peeing on your I-Pod and stomping on your computer because he most likely sees them as his competition for your love and attention. Twice Fuzzy Rat cut my phone cord while I was talking to someone. Or in her mind someone else... 

Also keep in mind his hormones aren't going down instantly, it will take some time for him to calm down, but you should see daily improvement. I'm guessing he's always going to have an aggressive mindset, but there is a big difference between being big and bad and knowing it and hurting his roomies. A high school football star is always going to swagger around the hallways, but he's not necessarily going to spend his time beating up the nerds. 

When you play with Badger and your other rats together, you will show him that they are valued members of your pack too. I often crunch my rats together in my arms after I do and immersion introduction. My daughter saw me do it and she does it a lot because she thinks it's cute and fun... but it makes the point... one family. And yes, that 'OMG what are the crazy humans doing to me' look on your rat's face is absolutely normal.

Here's my thread on shoulder rat training... It's worth reading if you are thinking about taking Badger outside.

http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?51718-Shoulder-Rats-and-all-out-of-home-rat-activities&highlight=outdoor+activities

Keep one thing in mind... rats behave VERY differently outside than inside. Amelia is very confident and competent indoors, she has hiding places she sleeps in for hours and casually roams about like she owns the place. Outdoors she's on the very edge of panic from the moment we walk out the door. Mostly she can ride on shoulder for a while before clawing her way under my shirt or jacket. Badger is most likely going to be a very different rat outdoors than indoors, but in any case it's going to blast his adrenaline level through the roof. It's exactly what an alpha rat is meant to do! It will challenge and test him right to his limits. Fuzzy Rat was an adrenaline addict and she became calm and hyper alert. It's like the elite soldiers that report only feeling alive during combat missions or people that take jobs as parachute jump instructors. Some people go to work by stepping out of an airplane at 12000 feet.

But it's a really quick test... find yourself a park or any wide open space, preferably one with a nearby bush or shrub and take Badger there. One of two things is going to happen, he'll freak out in terror, and not be able to calm down or he will settle down, hang out with you and possibly even explore the small shrub. In any case take your boyfriend and your travel cage along so if he panics you can recover him long before he gets away. 

After a long day outside Fuzzy Rat was pretty jacked up and wanted to play and be active the rest of the night, but most of my other rats need time to calm down and will hide for a few hours to recover their emotional equilibrium. In either case, after an outdoor thrill session, Badger is not likely to be all pent up any more.

The safe site experience, is just what it sounds like a safe place to experiment and explore. Whether it's in a school yard, or park or cemetery you are getting the feeling of how your rat is reacting and managing the stress, and you are getting experience in handling him without the benefit of walls. Most rats wash out pretty quickly, I mean they either freak and panic or stick to you like glue. The first has to stay indoors, the second can travel and become a limited shoulder rat. The freaky one like Fuzzy Rat starts wandering around like a puppy, running off exploring and then charging back to you for safety. Pick a safe place to experiment, bring your boyfriend for back up and just have some fun with it.

I see Badger as a normal male rat that's feeling normal boy hormones and with the leadership vacuum he was experiencing he became alpha aggressive. It's like having a "gifted" child. He needs more stimulation and handling than slower more dim witted rodents do. And in fact, most people that have fixed alpha aggressive male rats through immersion report that they wind up with very special and very smart rats. 

It seems that there is a fine line between special rats that act out and rats with mental disorders that become aggressive during puberty. The question is whether you have a campus stud or a Columbine style psycho. Perhaps a little parental and school involvement might have proven that there wasn't such a great difference there either...

Still, it's hard to tell the difference up front. If Badger needs management, handling and challenges, that's going to be the best fix for everybody involved. He gets a better, more exciting life and you get a way cool rat. If he's really twisted in the head then surgery might help, or it might not. 

But I actually think it sounds like you are on the right track, because he seems to be responding to treatment. Remember he didn't go anti-social overnight and he's not going to be completely fixed in an hour or two. If you need to make a chart and see how he is progressing do it, see how much time he spends acting out each day and see if he is improving. And if he gets pushy in the cage Shout "Badger, No Fighting!" Sometimes that's all rats need to get the message that you don't want them to push their roomies around. Lastly try to figure out what triggers his emotional issues. He might be causing his roomies to squeak to get your attention, yes rats can absolutely develop some strange and twisted behaviors to communicate with you. Don't rule anything out because you figure "rats simply can't be that smart".

If you try to approach Badger as a challenge and a learning experience rather than a problem it might seem less difficult.

Just remember all rat parents and human parents learn through trial and terror.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, first things first, the lead did not work. He was too big for it. I got it on my calmer, smaller rat, but it even looked small on him, and he just froze with it on (I remember a similar stance when we first put a coat on our terrier at home). That lead will not fit an alpha male. Maybe a females, but I don't know females so...

Anyway, after a short time struggling, in order not to stress him out, I settled for him sitting on my shoulder while I fed him treats. He happily ate on my shoulder for the first couple of treats, and then he tried to climb down with a treat to stash. I wouldn't let him, and kept walking around. He climbed around my arms for a bit, before I pushed him back onto my shoulder , and he ate the treat. I tried to give him another treat after that, but he refused - he definitely wanted to come down, so I let him. 

I've literally just realised throughout that whole time, he didn't pee on me...or at least, not on my hand, which is where I would have felt it...I think we're onto something here.

My first problem is finding a safe site, now that I don't have a lead. Sure, I can find a park with a shrub. My own back garden is pretty big with a few bushes. But these places are all open. Maybe fenced off a bit, but ultimately escapable if he wanted to. And I get the feeling with him, if he wanted to run off somewhere, he'd be gone. He'd hear me telling at him but he wouldn't listen. And then I'd lose him :/ I'm pretty scared of this, which is why I'm nervous about trying. I do think he's very intelligent though, and I should challenge him. I've just worked with him for 20 minutes having got home from work, and he's already fallen asleep in the corner of the room. This is my hyper boy that I was worried would never calm down. 

I've cancelled the neuter on Monday. If he were aggressive all of the time, or even to me, it'd feel like more of a clear decision, but it's not. That whole time I struggled to put the lead on him, I even held him still while my boyfriend tried, he didn't even try to bite my once. Before, he's warning nipped at me for picking him up without him expecting it. I really really think there could be more to this guy, but I need more confidence in myself as his alpha. 

So...a safe site...does it have to be inescapable? Or does just need the shrub so that he has something close by and contained to explore? I feel like I'm putting a lot of faith into Badger at the moment, because I am pretty worried, but I do think he's capable. Certainly more so than my other boys, who are just happy to sit and live their lives in the cage with a couple of hours a day free range


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Okay, shoulder ratting at home...I wonder if you can analyse this behaviour to predict how Badger is likely to act if we take him out of the house...

It was only a very short test, but he's never been around the house before. It started with him climbing onto my shoulder, and we left the rat room. I walked around the house and showed him everything. After a couple of minutes, he got restless and tried to climb down. I put my arm across my chest , and he climbed into that. I took him back to the rat room. Like I've said, I can't let him roam the house due to currently living with my landlord. I continued to interact with him in the rat room a bit before dinner.

While making dinner, I had everything under control, so I went to see how he'd react to things going on around him. I went to the cage, held my hand out, on he hopped. Put him on my shoulder, this time he nestled into my collar really comfortably. I took him to the kitchen and he got restless straight away. Dunno if it was food smells. Tried to feed him some bolognese that I was making but he wouldn't take it. This was a different restless to before. He might have been really uneasy about everything going on around him. He freaked out when I tried to use the microwave. I now wish I was wearing my dressing gown instead of a pullover jumper, as I reckon he would have nestled into my dressing gown at that point. Anyway, I took him off my shoulder and held him in my arms. He seemed to calm down. I put him back in the cage, and that was that.

All in all, I'm pleased with him, and I'm more than happy to put more work in, but still concerned about finding a suitable safe site.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First, most rats prefer to ride on your forearm rather than on your shoulder. They feel much safer and more nestled in there. Amelia pretty much only rides on my arm and Max will go on shoulder when I put her there but when people approach or we are walking along a busy street on the sidewalk with trucks etc she will climb down to my arm. In all honesty, Fuzzy Rat was the only rat I ever had that preferred to ride on my shoulder always facing backwards. 

By riding on my shoulder looking behind me she was mapping her way back to the house or the car. I tested this theory when we walked over a half a mile from the house to a kiddie park. Then I put her down and told her to lead us home... She walked to the park entrance, followed the side walk, crossed the street followed the street to the corner then crossed the street again an then followed the sidewalk several blocks, turning up our street and walking right up the middle of the road until she reached our house where she turned in and climbed the front step and waited fur us to open the front door. It was absolutely amazing... and we walked behind her not in front as in she was leading the way. I might add that shortly before she became disabled she started taking or looking for short cuts from point A to point B. We never were able to see how this worked out because her calculated diagonals which would have cut off a lot of distance went through people's back yards or under fences.. This would have told us if her guidance was mainly visual or "GPS" based. After that she developed too many tumors too fast and the mystery remains. Although Squirrels have found their way home from miles away, so we can assume that rats have similar abilities, but sadly I can't prove it.

But like I said Fuzzy Rat was an absolute one of a kind animal, which leads me to my next point. The house next to mine was abandoned, it was eventually torn down and replaced with condos. But for the time it was very overgrown... My daughter and I went into our small front yard and I sat on the steps while she too Fuzzy Rat about 15 feet away and put her on the ground... Fuzzy Rat was only 4 weeks old at the time and barely a handful of fur. I called Fuzzy Rat and she scurried to me and I picked her up and gave her skritches. We repeated the training exercise 9 times and all went well. Then suddenly on the tenth time she froze, stood up and looked around. Rather than coming to me she bolted for the shrubs and disappeared into the leaf litter under the overgrown bushes... and she was gone.

For 45 minutes we called and I even got a small rake to try and dig through the leaves but there was no rat to be found, and there was no way to even guess which way she went. So I sat down and calmly explained to my daughter who was getting very upset that her rat loved her and was coming right back. My daughter was only 5 years old, and didn't believe a single word I was saying... and neither did I. We only had Fuzzy Rat for a week and there was no way in my mind that she was ever coming back on her own. Now, I never much liked the looks of the chunky rat with a stain on her back and I'm starting to think of the advantages of getting a really attractive rat and how to break this to my daughter when I see a flash of white under the shrub where Fuzzy Rat first disappeared. As Fuzzy Rat should have been long gone, I didn't even react until her tiny little nose poked out from under the bush exactly where she had gone in. So I pointed and my daughter just scooped her up. 

So I'd like to PRETEND that I trusted my rat, and I planned to test her and that she passed a carefully designed test... but that's not what happened. Fuzzy Rat escaped because we were inexperienced and miscalculated and she came back entirely of her own volition. In fact, she didn't run away at all, she just went off to explore. And once she had seen what she wanted to see, she came back. I suppose this is what young wild rats do in nature. 

BUT.... that was a pretty harrowing experience for my daughter and I was honestly starting to get attached to the little vermin. She saved me from being wrong in front of my daughter and I think I was already a little bit proud of her. So the idea of the safe site was born. 

We chose a 40 acre park that had some small trees planted as windbreaks. Mostly it was short grass and it was surrounded on 3 sides by water. Now rats are faster then humans for about 20 to 50 feet. But after that distance our long legs give us the advantage. They sprint faster then us, but once we get up to speed, within 100 feet we can overtake them pretty easily in grass. Plus, rats instinctively don't run out into the open, they run for cover. At the safe site instead of walls we had wide open space to provide a barrier between our training area and escape. And pretty much Fuzzy Rat rode around on us, ran around us and played with us, sometimes sheltering under the trees and sometimes following us around at heel. And we kept expanding our play area until we reached a gazebo with a walled in planting of shrubs. Fuzzy Rat leaped up the wall and dove into the shrub planting. Now the planting was surrounded by acres of lawn so we weren't going to lose her, but rather than chase her we just waited for her to come back and once again after 45 minutes she popped up where she went in and hopped up onto hand. Again, we didn't plan to set her free in the shrubs, but knowing she comes back on her own gave us a great deal of confidence to move forward beyond the safe site. 

I'd again like to pretend that Fuzzy Rat was always a perfectly well behaved and obedient rat outdoors, but in fact she wasn't. We lost her, in the dark and she ducked through fences where we couldn't follow and if she really wanted to explore something she usually got her way. But she always came back, or went to the car or house all we had to do was call and wait. Indoors in stores and restaurants she did however have perfect manners and stayed on shoulder. She was manageable because she was predictable. Similarly, Max runs off and comes back whereas Amelia panics runs off, hunkers down in some hiding place and doesn't come back. She won't leap off us, but once on the ground she's gone and needs to be retrieved. I'm sure it's easy for you to see where this can go terribly wrong; as in if she ran into a hidey hole or down a sewer there's really no way to recover her. So with Fuzzy Rat and Max, I can pretty much take them anywhere, with Amelia I really have to plan my trips to avoid places where things can go wrong or spook her... I might add that you are going to have to put down a shoulder rat when you travel, they really don't plan and go to the bathroom when you take them outside, so you have to put them down when they need to go or you get peed on. My point? It takes time to develop confidence in your rats ability. Most likely, if Fuzzy Rat wasn't so smart and quick to exploit an escape opportunity, we never would have known that she came back on her own. Theoretically it's a process of giving your rat more freedom and opportunity to explore and experience gradually while you become more confident and experienced too.

Sadly, there's not much you can learn from a rat's indoor behavior to predict how he will act outside your home. The fact that badger snuggled to you when her heard the microwave is promising, but a microwave is way tamer than a tractor trailer rumbling by or hitting the air brakes or the air horn. Like a human can't know how they will react in a gunfight until someone is shooting at them. It turned out in WWII that many soldiers were killed without ever shooting back. After all of their training when the bullets started flying they basically couldn't bring themselves to shoot at other people or simply forgot to shoot back. Being outdoors in the open for a rat is like charging up a hill while being shot at for a human, there's no way to predict what it will do until you are there. That's why the safe site is so critical. If your rat manages his stress well at the safe site, you can feel more confident everywhere else. There's simply no way to tell how your rat handles fireworks until the first salvo goes off.









Fuzzy Rat exploring around the ground and hiking towards us while Amelia is hiding in the tree. (note, Fuzzy Rat was two and a half years old, more tumor than rat and it was her last trip to the safe site, but she still enjoyed being outdoors)




















Back to Badger.... 

The first observation I'm making is that it sounds like you are really handling him apprehensively and tentatively. That's not how an alpha human behaves. I just snatch my rats and play with them and manhandle them however I please and my daughter tosses them around like rag dolls. Rats really expect their alphas to be self confident. I mean at work your boss doesn't phone ahead or ask permission to come into your work space, he just walks in. Nor does he ask what you want to do today, he tells you what you are going to do. That doesn't mean your boss is necessarily a jerk, just that it's the way a leader leads. Don't be afraid to be more assertive! Push the envelope, and be more in charge. No don't be cruel or mean, just think of yourself as the leader and try to exude confidence. Insist on respect and be respected.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if Badger ever becomes a true shoulder rat. It matters that you challenge him and interact with him and that he sees you as his leader. Some folks wear their rats around the house with them all day never going outside. Some folks build challenging obstacle courses for them, We travel with ours. I don't know how far Badger can develop, neither do you, neither does Badger. But he's a big boy, his body is telling him he's got to face challenges and overcome obstacles to be alive. He needs a strong leader or to be a strong leader. He's been sitting around, cooped up in a cage with nothing to do and he's going insane, just like you would. I can't imagine how neglected, frustrated, sad and perhaps angry he was feeling. The microwave might have frightened him, but at least he experienced something new and he snuggled to you which is really great, it shows he thinks of you as safety. 

I know, some rats are pretty docile and do pretty well without many challenges. If you neglect them they will hang out with their rat friends and lay about most of their lives doing mostly nothing and they don't seem to stress over it. But other rats need excitement and human interaction and really want to live a full life. Personally I strongly prefer the later variety. Fuzzy Rat's peculiar adrenaline addicted personality really made her challenge us. She insisted on communicating with us and being with us and being recognized and understood which taught us about immersion. She insisted on meeting new people and exploring new places which taught us about outdoor pack behavior and how competent a rat can really get. But she also taught us how badly a bored rat can behave.

I'm guessing that out of an given 100 rats about half would be terribly unpredictable outdoors and should never go anywhere past the safe site. Then there would be a few that would be pretty manageable and predictable by an experienced rat handler and would travel pretty well, with the rest fitting in somewhere in between and perhaps one out of a thousand that would be like Fuzzy Rat, more dog than rat; not unique, but rare. So odds are against Badger becoming the next Fuzzy Rat... but what can he become if you keep pushing the envelope? You pretty much know for sure he'll go anti-social and twisted if you neglect him, so keep going and keep challenging him. Keep pushing him towards being your number 1 right hand rat and see how he evolves. Try to include him in as many of your daily activities as you can and challenge yourself to handle him with confidence.

If I'm right, you might be about to have a rare rat ownership experience you will remember for the rest of your life, Badger is going to evolve so far beyond your other rats that they won't even seem like the same species. Or you just might wind up with a happy well socialized affectionate rat that will be comfortable being around you and other rats. If I'm wrong, and I don't have a crystal ball, so I most certainly might be wrong, you can always neuter him and see if that helps.

Every day millions of brilliant children are under-stimulated and slip between the cracks into drug abuse and anti-social behavior, same goes for rats. After sharing a home with Fuzzy Rat I know that most rat owners never have the kind of experiences we have had. 

Yesterday, a young girl came up to me with her friends while I was walking Max. She snagged Max right off my arm and started snuggling and skritching her. It surprised me until she told me a story about a rat she had met a couple of years ago. Her name was Fuzzy Rat and she was friendly and wonderful. Oddly the girl didn't remember me in the least. But she had no fear of Max. The other girls pretty much followed their friend's lead and met Max too. Fuzzy Rat changed people, and she changed our lives. Max is no Fuzzy Rat, but she's a great rat too and Amelia is very special in her own way even if she has no outdoor skills and panics. Helping your rats evolve into the best they can be is both challenging and rewarding. Even now that Fuzzy Rat is gone, meeting people who remember her is still a special treat for me. Teaching Max about the great big wide world is great fun and snuggling with Amelia indoors makes me feel warm inside. By letting our rats grow into the best they can be we have gotten back far more than we put into the experience. 

And this kind of an experience is just priceless... It's what having a trained shoulder rat is all about.
















It really sounds like Badger is responding well. Expect to be frustrated sometimes and amazed other times and don't be afraid to have fun with him. He's a rat, he's the second most successful animal on planet Earth. He's metacognative and has emotions and thinks very much like you do. And from what I can tell he loves you and trusts you. He's a lot more complex than just a bad case of hormones mixed with instincts. It might turn out that you are lucky to have him... Only time will tell.

(P.S. I didn't post the pics above to try to convince anyone to take their rats outdoors, it is dangerous and a fine way to get them killed. I just wanted to make a point of what some rats can do and be, given the opportunity and training. Always try to be inspired, but not foolish about your decisions.)

For all rats... the following pic is what it really is all about... This is Fuzzy Rat in her absolute favorite place on earth. After having lived a life of danger and adventure and exploration, she was always happiest in her Mom's arms when the adventure was over.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Thank you so much for those stories! It really does inspire me to work with Badger to the best of my abilities. I don't expect him to become the next Fuzzy Rat, mostly because I don't have much faith in myself as a handler. As far as handling him goes, I'm probably more rough with him than any of my other boys. Athos is just a massive baby, so I handle him with extreme care, and Thaddius is my squishy heart rat, so I won't do anything to upset him. Badger on the other hand, has cost me nearly £200 on vet bills since we got him back in July. I love him, and I don't regret getting him, but because he's cost me so much, and because he picks on his cagemates, I am rougher on him. Like I said, I was wrestling with him for ages trying to get the lead vest on him. He's given me warning nips before for picking him up when he didn't want to go up, but this was before I started to properly work with him, so maybe the effort I've already put in has had an effect on his behaviour. I don't know. 

I bought another lead today. I don't think I'll take him out anywhere too exciting, but I will try to keep him on me in the house more now if I can. Maybe take him to the pet shop. I want to test his boundaries as well as mine. I'll try having him ride on my forearm instead, but when we first got Badger, during our first immersion session, he climbed up onto my shoulder and would not come down for hours. He was scared (lots of poops), but he didn't hide away, he just stayed on my shoulder. And he's the only one of my rats to actually enjoying climbing into my shoulder at all (although Thaddius has started doing it a bit now). So I think he likes it there. But I think he'd prefer it if I wore something he could burrow into. 

I really don't know if I'm going to find a safe site around here, but I will search. Although, it's a shame it's getting darker earlier now. My situation dictates I may be moving house some time in the future and one of my main priorities when searching for a new place will be it's rat proofness (no holes in the floor or half finished skirting, etc). I think all of my rats would benefit from having run of the whole house if they could. 


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I would be very wary about taking him outdoors until you are confident in your ability to pick him up in a scary situation. Testing limits is one thing but its important not to put him at risk doing it. I do male a point of taking my guys outside, on walks etc but only once ive built that level of mutual trust, so I know if they bolt they bolt to me, and I also know if they do wander somewhere unsafe I can pick them up without fear. To get to this level I do lots of handleing and keep it up until they dpnt even blink when I pick them up and tpuch them, whrrever they are. I take them into unfamilier rat safe places around the house, building up to rooms that arent ideal but I know the worst that can happen is them get behind something big and me have to wait them out. Saying that this hasnt happened for years, my rats normal response to getting somewhere they arent meant to is to proudly trot up to me tp show off there cleverness.

If you want a good option for taking him unfamilier plaves such as outside which aren't rat safe then look at a fabric pop up puppy play pen. I have this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/FlamingoFac...732783&sr=1-10&keywords=puppy+play+pen+fabric . Its big enough to sit inside comfortably and add toys, potted plants etc. Its not safemto leave them unsupervised as its fabirc and rats chew, but as a bonding area it is brilliant. Mine is currently at a friends house who has just moved and has no space tp free range, this is perfect for that.

I do still think this guy would benefit from neutering, but then I also think that neutering is probably on the balance better for most rats, theres a lot of research that supports its health and lifespan benefits and a good rat vet is very low risk. When you add in a rat who isnt dealing with his hormones well then it makes it a no brainer for me. I am coming from experiemce pf neuters as straight forward ops with a very high survival rate and very low complication rate, in all but 2 cases from my combined experience with my close rat keeping friends (between us we probably have well over 100 rats at anyone time) it has helped in some way, either reducing hormones so that the issues go away, helping make rehabilitation easier or meaning the guy (or girl in some cases) can live with the other sex. But this is with us all having acces to good vets to be fair. Girl neuters are higher risk I will say, they take a bit more thinking about, though the health benefits of neutering young are also higher, I would be bordelrine unless they had clear hormonal issues or were young and had a lump early.

I dp think you have to understand the particular case, whats causing it and tackle behaviour alongside a neuter, but it can help. Take my guy kazoo, he is over the top, this is a good part of his issues and why he is such a wonderful ratty person, he simply doesnt have a good understanding of limits. Combine this with his getting a boost of hormones and becoming my cage alpha and suddenly he doesnt even have another rat as well as me to keep him in check. Cue him being a very bossy alpha to his cage mates, and being an angel with me as he knows I am in charge, but when im not there he takes things tp far and bites his cage mates. He also has higher level of hormones than he is comfortable with, so stomps around free range puffed up sometimes scuffling and marking excessively for him. If I had a good strong alpha other tha him he would be fine, weve actually seen this with a similar natured brother and sister of his, they turn into perfect rats with a good dominant alpha rat. His neuter is done to drop his hormones enough to remove him from his alpha position, this will enable his cousin raga to hopefully become alpha and cap his over the topness , Raga is a naturally calm and stable rat, much better alpha material, and should end up comfortably in charge when im not around. 

With badger the reason I suggest it is when youve talked about him attacking his cagemates, if this is resolved then becoming his boss will probably fix the rest. If you can get him as a stable, happy rat and your cage boss then its ideal. 

My guy who was having issues with being an overly forceful alpha in his group (but an angel with me lol), was neutered yesterday at my friends super rat vet. He was a bit sleepy yesterday after a very straight forward operation but today you couldnt tell he had been through surgery. I will report back on how he gets on, i expect to see changes in the next few weeks, hopefullh sooner as i have a couple babies i woild like to introduce to the pack next week.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

I really don't think I can take him outside. I'm happy to test his limits in the house, but like I've said, it's not my house or the majority of my things, so I don't really want him to run off and destroy stuff. 

I've done some stuff with him tonight. When he hops on my shoulder and sits there for a while, I'll leave the safety go the rat room. He's generally okay, but he does try to get down. I think it's because he likes to explore. When he does this, I go back to the rat room. Now when we're back here, he sits by the door and sticks his nose underneath it. I think he wants to explore outside. 

Part of the reason for me cancelling the neuter is also because he's only been off a four week course of meds for a stubborn URI for a week now. I was unsure of the neuter at first anyway because of the fact that he's okay in the cage most of the time (although saying that, the other boys have been running from him a bit tonight...) and they all sleep all snuggled up anyway. Once I began forcing them all to play together, and my older boys started to come out for free range once again, his aggression did seem to calm down. He doesn't chase the boys as much as he used to, though they still aren't keen on him coming too close. 

This, along with not really wanting to have to subject him to yet another course of meds post-neuter, as well as the fact that it's still early days with him being off the meds - what if he's actually still not 100% and reacts badly to the anaesthetic? - it all results in me wanting to cancel he neuter in favour of other things, just for the time being...I'll see if I can work with him a little and see how his health goes. Not to mention, give him some time off being force fed meds or locked in a cage on his own until he eats the meds. 

The option is still very much there I think. I still really hate seeing my older boys scared of him, especially since I don't see him doing anything wrong...could he be giving off aggressive ratty pheromones?? 

Either way, I'm putting A LOT of effort into him. As I've said, if he were straight up aggressive, that'd be a different story. But he's not. Which leads me to think there must be more to it. 

He's not my favourite choice for alpha. I'd much rather have Thaddius as an alpha. He was top rat before Badger grew up. He's always been super calm and fair. But now he cowers under Badger, which is sad for me to see


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

If your not sure about his health its well worth delaying things, resp infections do increase tne chance for issues. Fingers crossed it resolves on its own. Have you thought of trying rat agility with badger to test his limits?


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

I've been trying to teach him tricks at the moment, but I don't know the concept of rat agility, please explain! It sounds fun! So far, I have ascertained that he definitely knows the command "Badger, come here", but doesn't always want to listen >.> but if I'm patient enough, or call him when he's not busy, he's pretty good.

Been trying to teach him spin, and he's a pretty fast learner. He won't do it without the treat leading him round yet, but his spins are really good and tight , like he knows the action I want him to do. When I tried to teach Thaddius , it was obvious that his head was just following the treat. 

Should I be getting little rat jumps and hoops and things?


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Something weird is happening...I've just been sitting in my room, and two or three times now I've heard squeaks from the rat room, so I've walked in. Thinking it was Badger being a bully again to get my attention, I wanted to go and tell him it wasn't appreciated.

This last time I've walked in to find Thaddius MIGHT be going for alpha again. I sat and watched for a bit. He humped Badger, before pinning him and grooming him. Badger didn't puff up once, nor did he struggle throughout the ordeal. He didn't appreciate the humping, but everything else he sat still for. Normally when Thaddius grooms Badger, it's because Badger has pushed himself under Thaddius to be groomed at his will, but this was different. So either Badger is settling down, or he's been off he meds and is therefore getting ill again (figured he was ill before, which is why he's taken so long to fight for alpha). I hope it's the former, but this is very interesting behaviour. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Overall, I'm still reading that you are making progress. There are different ways to challenge a rat, a safe outdoor site was my choice when I had no indoor options. I live with a rat phobic that can now barely be on the same floor if a rat is sleeping somewhere under something much less share airspace with a rat she can see... When we started out she walked around with a spray bottle of bleach and wiped anything a rat might have touched as soon as she came into the house... and wouldn't come into the house if the rat wasn't safely locked in the cage... So for sanity's sake we moved outdoors and for safety's sake we found a super safe site. I see your issue with your landlord being similar and getting you more room and Badger a place to explore and romp about as important. 

But to be clear, a safe site is a must. With a 40 acre buffer my safe site is almost as safe as being indoors. I would like to stress the word "almost". But it's a trade off between no space and a small risk.

I'm still reading between the lines that you don't feel entirely confident, and I'd like to be as encouraging as possible because strong willed rats tend to respond better to strong authority figures.

As you take charge of Badger and show him that you are the leader of the pack, his hormones will decrease and another rat might start pushing him around, it's an odd consequence but with rats various dynamics can play out. But no matter which rat tries to be the alpha, it's your job to maintain order and be in charge of everyone. In small packs there's no need for a cage alpha, yes one rat will have higher status than another, but none should think that they are the cage boss. I am the cage boss even when I have mismatched rats and I almost always do. My rats have always been at least a year apart in age. People who maintain larger rat packs might find a benefit in having a strong number two in their cage, but honestly I doubt that they really surrender their alpha status if they are experienced and successful.

I don't see this matter as a philosophical choice or a predilection for or against neutering. Basically Badger seems to respond well to challenges and wants to explore more. He also seems to be responding well to the increased attention you are giving him. You are addressing the real issues and he's changing, even the cage dynamics is beginning to change. And hopefully you can feel more confident and assertive along with his changes. It will take effort and time, but that will be rewarded by the affection you will share. I tend to believe that the best treatment for Badger, given my understanding of his issues and his situation is to fix the root causes of his problem and he should become normal and well adjusted... if that doesn't work there's neutering, if that doesn't work, you can always go back to behavioral options and if everything fails, well at least you can say you have tried everything you can.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I was re-reading this thread, and want to be clearer about my take on the neutering issue. In some cases, it may be the absolutely correct path and will have excellent results. This is when a rats "personality" (for lack of a better word) combines with hormones and creates a situation where you can't reverse the process through hands on management.

Back in the 1970's when I worked at Overbrook Mental Hospital... oh yes, the very same one as seen in assorted movies that didn't end well... there were 5 brothers... one was a patient on my ward... he was a very attractive young man with red hair, and aside from him having most of his teeth pulled out by the hospital dentist he could be dressed up in a suit and would easily have turned a many young lady's heads. In fact, he still made the nurses drool. But he was always heavily sedated on Thorazine and pretty much walked about like a zombie. He didn't give anyone any trouble. One day his mom and younger brother came to visit him. His younger brother was about 12 years old and seemed like a very pleasant young man. Then someone told me the back story.... There were 5 brothers all were exceptional athletes and students when they were children. They were all tall gifted and handsome. In fact they were almost carbon copies of each other. When they turned 15 or thereabouts each one in turn became violent, paranoid and schizophrenic and one by one they were committed to the hospital. Four of them were distributed across the various men's wards.... now basically they were sedated shadow people. My co-worker made the comment that it must be hard for the younger brother to see his older brothers because it was most likely his future too. It was over 30 years ago, and it still makes me profoundly sad. 

Basically when the brother's hit puberty, due to some aberration in the boy's brains, when the hormones kicked in their brains fried, they lost control and became violently aggressive. I have to assume that no one thought about castration, neither did I at the time, but there was nothing environmental about their problem. I met the mom and she seemed nice, and the youngest brother was pleasant and showed absolutely no signs of any disorder. But 4 brother's, almost exactly at the same age went mad concurrent with the onset of puberty... this was no coincidence. There was clearly no psychological or behavioral treatment option. If this happens in humans, I can't see why it doesn't happen in rats. If a neuter would have helped the 4 (maybe 5) boys that are still most likely languishing out their lives medicated and drooling somewhere behind locked doors it would have been a small price to pay for a real life of any kind. And more than likely these guys shouldn't have children anyway.

But having said that... There's a big difference between a normal boy who gets aggressive during puberty and these poor fellows. A normal boy can be engaged in sports and get therapy and be guided through his hormonal period. Heck, I had my share of fights in high school too. 

But with the proper guidance of a coach that changed my life, I graduated as an honor student and went to a pretty decent university.

With rats, there is a difference between "normal" teenage aggression which can and should be handled by interventions like immersion and handling and the "abnormal" ones that need special treatment like neutering.

I just wanted to be clear that I don't think one method is "better" than another. It's just that the immersion method is more appropriate in SOME cases and perhaps safer to try first when you are unsure. Each treatment option will work best for the right rat. 

I'm pretty sure that if all of the varsity athletes in my high school were castrated, the school would have been a quieter and more easily manageable place, but I'm less certain that overall, this would have been the best solution as most of them grew up to be pretty interesting and successful people. Many are now parents with exceptional children of their own.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

The reason I was so unsure about the neutering in the first place was that Badger's aggression wasn't constant. It wasn't particularly directed at me, nor did it affect the other boys so much that they we're covered in wounds and afraid to eat or drink. I generally had a very healthy mischief. The only issue was Badger sometimes deciding to chase the other boys, resulting in them being too frightened to leave their bed when I called them out for free range. That issue has now been mostly addressed. He'll probably still chase them, given the chance, but it's less often now, and very rare if I can keep him engaged. 

What drove me over the edge to book the neuter in the first place was witnessing him puff up when he attacked the boys, and as he sidled up next to them or stood over them. The older boys were being no threat at all. Not even trying to fight back. I get that Badger wants to show off his strength, but believed his actions to be unnecessary and not true to those of a fair, kind alpha. The puffing got more and more frequent, so I booked the neuter out of fear that it would turn into something worse. 

For the most part, my efforts with Badger, and the whole cage, have been very successful. Yesterday, I worked for 17 hours at two different jobs, so I wasn't able to see my boys. They got some food and a lot of treats to bribe them, and a very quick lap around the bedroom as I changed their litter boxes. They were going mad within energy inside the cage even at 1am when I got home. While I don't like leaving them for so long (and this isn't a regular occurrence), i quite enjoyed seeing them clamber over one another to get at me with no regard for what they were doing - Badger was climbing over Athos, Athos was climbing over Thaddius - my scaredy rat was mingling with my bully rat without a care in the world. Whether this was just because they missed me and wanted their free range time or because their cage dynamics have finally settled, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see when I do get to free range them today. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Before immersion theory and immersion, there was only neutering, as before Thorazine there was only lobotomy. There still is a place for both neutering and immersion depending on the situation... 

Some of the most knowledgeable and experienced long term members or our community have had great success with neutering by skilled vets. But having been the person who developed and introduced immersion with my "partner" Fuzzy Rat, I tend to prefer trying immersion first. 

But in any event I am very happy to hear that you are bringing things under control and that Badger is responding well to being challenged and engaged. Some rats seem to be happy when left pretty much alone, while others need constant human contact and leadership, which one you get is just the luck of the draw, but I personally prefer the interactive rats over those that prefer to be left alone.

I believe that the improvement in Badger and your cage dynamics is a tribute to your commitment and perseverance. Keep up the good work and don't let Badger backslide. 

Best luck and keep us posted.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Free range wasn't any different today. Badger is getting much better at responding to me though. It was a good night. He did a little bit of chasing and sidling, but there was no puffing, and i kept on top of it. There was one point, however, when Badger was trying to get on the windowsill but Athos was already there. I heard squeaking and thought Badger was trying to get underneath Athos, like he does. I told him off pretty bad. Had him backed into a corner and was pushing at him. He was super submissive to me. Them my boyfriend told me that he thought Id told off the wrong rat. Apparently, Badger had been trying to get on the windowsill, but Athos had tried to keep him off, and was pushing at him with his front paws, so Badger barged his way through. I apologised to Badger with strokes, and he boggled at me (I think it was the first time I'd seen him boggle). It was nice, he rarely stays still for affection.

Anyway, tonight, I've realised that Athos is a potential danger to himself. He's so jumpy! At one point, I grabbed him and Badger for a big family hug, and he hated it. Badger managed to stay still, which is new, and Athos was still, but very vocal. He ended up jumping right out of my grasp. Badger didn't even try to touch him. I do wonder if, in fact, it's Athos that needs a neuter so he stops being so riled up all the time for no reason. I'd probably go ahead with it if Thaddius wasn't also a little afraid of Badger at times. I grab him and Badger in for a hug as well, and Thaddius just freezes. He cooperates, but he hates it. He also runs from Badger, though it's not as bad as Athos. I wonder if it's possible for Athos to have gotten Thaddius riled up because he's such a baby himself, and they're brothers so have a sort of connection? If so, then an Athos neuter may also relax Thaddius. It's just an idea.

I took Badger out of the rat room on shoulder for a bit today too. He was much more comfortable with it than before. He tried to climb down once, but I pushed him back up where he was content to stay for a little bit more. I think progress is still being made  I've decided to postpone the potential neuter for a month, mostly for Badger's health. If I haven't made significant progress in a month and Badger is still perfectly healthy, then I may reconsider the neuter again. But for now, I'm very happy.

Here's a bonus pic - happy to see he's so comfortable on my shoulder that he now eats treats up there









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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Boys will be boys. And to some extent even domestic rats are still rats. Some chasing and shoving is just what boy rats do... Even girls have their squabbles from time to time. If you really want to avoid all of the little spats you would have to get them lobotomies not neuters.

Although I'm not there and can't lay eyes on what's happening, it really does sound like you are taking control, engaging Badger and managing your mischief more effectively and it's paying off. It sounds like you are doing a great job.

PS...

So, I have to ask... does your obsession with neutering ever make your boyfriend uncomfortable?  

OK, I'm just kidding!


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

Hahah yeah, I do feel like I have an obsession with neutering...I'm trying really hard not to! I don't think my boyfriend has taken it personally yet...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I often try my own take on tbe immersion principles prior to neutering too, I wojldnt say it was entirely new, its a particular way to use a bond with your rat to help settle them and build there confidence. Its something experienced owners have used for years, maybe not the exact same process but the same themes and ideas. Much like when I introduced the carrier method guide on another forum, a lot of people thought I invented the idea but it's been around for a while for anyone who knows there rats and has a good understanding of animal behavioural psychology. You ha e put it across in an easy to understand and follow guide though.

I actually think oir philosophies are very similar, the main difference is I come from looking at the rats as a pack animal who is fundamentally a lot more intinctively drive than a human and you draw more links with your experience with humans. Thats why I often choose neutering earlier on, well that and the health benefits and my confiendence I my vet. I dont see it as failing to give my rat therapy but actually to nelp them relax in a situation they are struggling to e themselves with. Hard to explain unless yojve really seen a succesful program.

Take Kazoo, he was neutered o thrusday, by friday asside from a healing wound 1cm long and shaved testicle sack yoj coildnt tell hed been neutered. He was that healthy. Today all of 3 days on from the neuter he is already much happier. When you pick up a buck who is struggling with his hormone levels you can feel the tension, even when they are relaxed and licking you theres still something there. I picked him up today and there was just a relaxed happy boy. On tne floor in free range rather than stomping and getting occasionally fluffy he skipped for tne first time in months, he was just so full of excitement and happiness. I have 5 baby boys here right now from my last litter, I free range there dad with them as he is a very low ranking boy and is clearly happy with them. 2 will stay here and be introduced to my 3 adults next week. I have not rated put kazoo near them prior to this, there smell turned him into a puff ball.today b e happily trotted around with them with barely a sniff, whilst destroyjng there play ground and stealing there dinner. Hes not a dull reflection of himself made subdued by his neuter, he is a rat made young and relaxed again by a succesful neuter. Thats not to say it always works, or I woild jump to surgery.this neuter is the end of a long process with kazoo. It started with going back to basics and reintroducing them, lots of strong handiling etc, kind of immersion, and went to this ecause he was not readh to calm down and e himself without a bit of help help. Looking back I wish id done it earlier, it wojld have saved his cage mates a few wojnds and he would have been happier. My otner option I suspect would have worked as well in tne long term would be to settle a strong dominant older rat to put kazoo in his place when im not there to do it, in reality kazoo inherited alphadom too early, when I lost my Bean rat earlier this year.

Now I need to hope tne next stage in my plan works as well a d his cousin raga makes as good an alpha as I believe he nas the potential to be. Plus the babies help make the group more complete, I dislike same aged groups, they dont bond as well and tend to have more unrest.


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

That's really good to hear and means that I can be confident in my backup neuter plan if a month passes and Badger still isn't behaving himself. Like I've said, I'm giving it a month to test mine and Badger's abilities, and also because his first URI took only a month to come back, which is why he was put on a stronger mix of meds for four weeks. Presumably, to see if this has worked at all, we need to wait a decent length of time to see if the infection comes back. If it doesn't come back, and Badger still isn't settled, I'll be happy to try to neuter, confident that I tried my best to address his behavioural problems, and happy that he'll more than likely survive the procedure. It means that i know that I will eventually have a healthy, happy mischief in the end, by whatever means! 

Also, re: free range tonight. Thaddius was on my boyfriends computer chair (his favourite spot), Badger jumped up there, Thaddius jumped down onto my boyfriend. Badger followed, we talked to them and comforted Thaddius who was looking terrified. Badger was behaving. Then he started humping Thaddius, causing him to run off. Sigh. Apparently, we have good and bad days! The aggression has still been toned down massively though. If this is a case of "boys will be boys", my older boys certainly don't agree or appreciate it :/ 


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Sometimes the fault isnt entirely withthe agrresor. Take my situation, when it started a while ago kazoo was mainly picking on one guy, my Tam, with occasional bites on his cousin Raga. Whilst this might be because Tam is lowest ranking a good part was encouraged by Tams behaviour too. He lacks a bit of self confidence and so over reacts to things, just like kazoo was over reacting by being too harsh, tam was over reacting by getting a bit freaked out and not just submitting to a quick dominance groom. When he ran kazoo would try and grab him and get him back, hence the wounds, mainly on his bum. Tam had got to the point where he flinched and stood off with kazoo if kazoo just looked at him, which added to tne twnsion. Thats when I first went back to intros with them, focusing on kazoo and tam, putting them together in a small cage to sort things out without as much oppertunity for injury. It worked really well and they improved a lot, it took a week or so intensive work but they could be around each other without facing off or tam getting upset. Its only when a low level of injuries continued and affected raga too, and kazoo started to get grumpy walkingaround that neuter became neccesary. I still think that tam doesnt help himself, he occasionally sneaks up tl kazoo and tugs his skin even now, I am thinking that adding the babies to the family will help in that in tne long run.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I have no doubt that some if not all of the elements of immersion theory have always been practiced by people that have always been good at handling their rats. The older methods that were hit and miss were like the same family recipe that turns out to be delicious when one relative cooks them and awful when someone new to the family tries them for the first time. Success often depends on never following the recipe too closely. By trying to develop more of a theory behind immersion than a cook book recipe the hope was to get as many people to understand what "flavor to taste" means so they can better react to the rats they are working with on the fly. In other words if you add more vinegar you need more sugar. Fuzzy Rat and I only introduced immersion as a more unified theory and approach, most of the individual practices have most likely been working well for certain people since old ladies were burned as witches for having pet rats.

There is always going to be some uncertainty between instinct and learning. Working with larger groups of rats it's likely that you see lots more pack behavior than I do. I got to observe pack behavior by watching a wild pack interact with my daughter, to fill in my gaps. But mostly I was lucky to have a very bright and communicative rat to work with one on one who went out of her way to "explain" herself. Hands on management of larger mischiefs where I can move rats from one group to another isn't something I have experience with. This also likely biases my emphasis on a single human alpha rather than bringing up rat alphas to help out. 

Although we largely backed into the same ideas from different directions, I have no doubt that if someone were to watch us our methods would look strikingly similar. In the end there are only a very few ways to build a campfire if you don't have lighter fluid or gasoline available. No matter where in the world it's done, or who taught the procedure, there's a similar natural order to the process. You can't light the logs and pile on the kindling afterwards. 

I doubt if any good rat trainer would resort to neuter as a first option. But I DO BELIEVE that there are certain people that are looking for a short cut and don't want to put in the time to fix problems that aren't hormonal. It's human nature to be lazy and these days people tend to be too busy to raise their rats right. Whereas you are offering a solution to certain specific stubborn problems someone else is reading it as; "Eureka! Happy rats when I want them for 5 minutes every other week. No muss - no fuss! Let's throw some money at the problem." And we both know how that's likely to turn out especially if we are talking about single rats or groups of two or three trapped in a small cage 24 X 7. 

*To be clear, I'm not talking about lalalauren who is putting in the work and seems to be getting results for her efforts. This is a comment about certain other posters or lurkers.*

And yes, you are very lucky to have a good and affordable vet. I lived on a 600 year old farm in Germany for a couple summers when I was a kid and I got to help castrate piglets. It's something the old farmer did for all of the local farms and I came along as his assistant. (Little did I know what I would be assisting in.) He did it with his great grandfather's pocket knife and he corterized the wound with boiling oil, out of a bent can and there were no stitches involved. And no anesthesia, and it was a little more than a little gruesome... But all of the piglets survived, so I suppose neutering isn't the hardest procedure on rats either. But I do recall the old farmer pointing to a tiny bit of translucent tissue and saying.. if you cut this you will *kill* the pig, so I have no doubt an incompetent or inexperienced vet can screw it up. And with how badly some rats do under anesthesia as administered by some vets... well, it's something I wouldn't recommend lightly... but again that's because we are coming from different perspectives. If I had an affordable and competent vet, I might have a different opinion.

Poor Max got short changed on her play time yesterday and someone ate my daughter's new patent leather winter boots and the rats stayed in their cage last night... so... I'm being paged.

Have a great day.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Lol at max, been there a few times, ive got to say boys do destroy things slightly less often than girls from my experience.

Yeh I dl think sometimes people neuter because its an easy way out. I will say though I prefer that to the lther easy way out here which is either tl get rid of the rat, releas e it to the wild or just , eave it solitary and unloved in a tiny cage. We see a lot come through the rescue route that way, useually a bit of work, and possibly a neuter to help and they make lovely pets.

I hope you get chance to have a bigger grouo one day, the dimensions of behaviour is so much more deep in a way. I like a grouo of about 6 for this reason with a good mix of ages in it. Boys are also easier to read heirachy in a way than girls who are more awkward. Probably why I prefer boy intros to girls, a girl can take a dislike very easily, a boy is a more simple chap mlre interested I living in a settled group than taking personal issues qith another rat.


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