# HELP ME! (or I'm gonna snap two adorable little necks)



## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

This may have bee a little easier if I had pics but I don't, sorry...

Okay. I made a custom cage, and I dare say it's pretty friggin cool, but I have a problem. They are peeing in the living space.

key points;

- There is an Upper and lower compatment to the cage that are seperated by a 'floor'.

- There are passways between the compartments.

- The top compartment is living space. Climbing levels, igloo, pocket hamock, chew toys.

- The Botom level is essentially one big litter tray.

- They CAN and DO go between the levels.

- They do not POOP upstairs and sometimes pee in the botom like their supoused to.



the question...

How can I make them not ever pee upstairs because there's nothing to soak it up but the wood? I cannot afford a CN cage and I can't afford the rat cage at the pet store which may not be big enough for two anyway. If this problem can't be solved I have no choice to house them in an aqaurium that I already own. That is the last resort as I am aware it has adverse effects on their health.

And please, helpful answeres only. I don't need to hear what a horrible person I am for not being able to afford a higher standard of living for my rats than I can for myself.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

By your last comments it sounds like you already know the answer to your questions so we don't have to answer.
Please edit it out the neck snapping in the subject line; there are young kids on this forum and it makes for horrible images in a lot of our brains.


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## marshmallowfriend (Apr 16, 2009)

Do you have litter boxes on the upper levels? I would recommend covering the wood as well (fleece is a popular choice). In any case, there's nothing to get angry about. It can take a while for rats to catch on to litter training and some never do. Most rats can be trained for poop but will continue to pee outside of their litter box.


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## xojesse (Apr 13, 2009)

Are you using any sort of cloth liners in your cage?

The only thing that I can think of is if you're already using cloth and your rats are used to it/not chewing it to pieces you can use a fabric called PUL with an absorbent fabric like cotton as a top layer, PUL as the bottom. I use it as the bottom layer in my cage liners with two absorbent cotton layers sewn above it so there is no leakage or wetness on the bottom layer at all. It's practically bulletproof when it comes to keeping moisture out. It can be cut, shaped and sewn in any size or shape you need making it very versatile. Can be washed on hot over and over and will still be the same. I originally used it for covers for cloth diapers for my kids before I thought to use it for my rats. Maybe you could give someone the dimensions of the wood levels needing to be covered and they could make you some with elastic that would wrap around the wood and hold them tight? I sew and could potentially do this for you for next to nothing if you don't find a better option. 

Hope this helps or that you find a resolution to your problem!


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

You could use sticky on tiles/lino and wipe it down daily.


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## Corrie (Feb 4, 2009)

Have you thought about painting the wood? Or like Stace said, cover with lino tiles or some sort of material that will mean pee cannot soak into the wood and it will be wipe-clean.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Well I had another thread asking for pee proofing help a while ago but it never took off. I was never able to figure anything out, if I had pics of my creation you could see the difficulty with it. My own fault really, I rushed into building it without sufficient planning. What's so frustrating is that they KNOW HOW TO AND REGULARLY USE the litter tray like they're supposed to. They are just being lazy and occasionally using a corner in the living area. 

Over the weekend I finally devised a way to line the living space with fleece using alligator clips because I half felt bad about keeping them confined to the lower section and half just want them to have full run of the cage because I put a lot of effort into building for them. I am committed to not giving up on my custom cage like many say they eventually do. 

The fleece seems to be helping, but I would much rather break them of the habit all together. But now that the wood has at least a cloth shield for soaking lets focus on the pan training it's self. To those who have successfully pan trained your rats, how did you do it?


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## ROM (Apr 12, 2009)

I adopted a five month old and a two month old from a rescue organization.

When I first got them, they went everywhere in their cage. I would then take their droppings and put them in their litter box. The older rat (Ruben) seemed to understand it and now that's where he goes. When I have him out, he gets restless when he needs to go and then I'll put him in his litter box. He's pretty wonderful.

Henry on the other hand, he still just goes wherever he pleases. I hope he catches on soon and learns from Ruben. 

Perhaps consistency is the key, too. Whenever you see droppings on the floor, immediately put them in the litter box.

I hope my suggestion is helpful. I am new to the world of rats.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Well, what I've been doing when they'd pee in the living area was, after a stern "NO!", sop it up with a paper towel, then crumple the towel and drop it down into the litter area. My hope was that between the 'oh crap why'd he just yell at me?' and watching me drop the pee into the litter area / following the smell, they'd figure it out. I would often latter find the pee towel dragged back up into the living area. It'd be in their house or hammock. They never poop upstairs, just pee. If it were reversed I wouldn't be as concerned, as the wood can't soak up poo.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

I think you are going to loose this battle. . 
Rats do their own thing; that what makes sense to them. That's what makes them so charming.


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## ROM (Apr 12, 2009)

I'd probably just try to waterproof the top floor then. The painting suggestion was a good one, also, the sticky tiles (properly done so they couldn't be pulled up. Maybe even throw down a fleece covering on it also. I find cheap fleece at the local Walmart in the bargain bin. $1.00 for a yard. Maybe they'll learn in time.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

some interesting revelations...

they seem to not pee on the fleece I've managed to get down. That or it is far more absorbent than I realize. But the ledge had a piece of loose fleece in the igloo for a couple days, and I believe it was pee free. Then last night one of them pulled the loose piece out of the igloo and down to floor. Then they peed on it (the ledge). So hopefully once I get some more alligator clips to keep the fleece on the ledge they'll stop. But they are chewing the fabric around the clips. Is this just regular chewing or are they specifically trying to rip up the new 'carpet'?


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## CaptainFlow (May 16, 2007)

I doubt they're specifically trying to rip up the "new carpet"... rats just like to chew and cause mischief and see what's under that and how does that taste and can I drag this over here and where's that smell coming from and I'm bored so let's dig and I'm bored so let's shred something and is there food on the other side of this and hey this is a fun game to use my teeth and is there maybe food down there?! You get the idea, yeah?

My girls chew up any hammock that's not just a piece of fleece clipped to the bars. If I pretend they think like I do, then I could be upset that they're only ruining the ones that I put work or money into. But if I think like them... well, isn't it more fun to rip out seams than just chew boring holes in fleece? 

Just because YOU said that the upstairs is a living area, and the downstairs is open toilet, doesn't mean they understand that. Nor that if they could understand, would they follow your idea. They're just little critters, doing what they like. Some are naturally cleaner than others, but most of them pretty much do what they want unless you can thwart them 24/7. 

Putting human emotions and understanding on animals is just going to frustrate everyone. If you soak up the pee and tell them no, they're going to get scared because they don't get why they can't pee wherever they want or why you are being harsh with them, and you're going to get frustrated because they're going to pee wherever they want. 

See if you can get more clips to hold the fleece down, or find some other way of pee proofing the wood. Best yet would be if you could replace the wood for something easier to clean and sanitize, like a solid plastic or fleece covered metal shelf. But I don't know if that's possible in your cage.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Yeah I understand that they don't consciously comprehend the difference between living and potty areas... I just read so much about how easy it was to litter train, in many cases not even train, they just just do it on their own. Until this thread I hadn't read many of the 'they'll just go where they want' posts. Plus i see so many cage setups with a small pan in a corner. Just wish mine were more cooperative... but the lining seems to at least help the smell, which keeps me content.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

Please be sweet and gentle with them; their lives are too short to overcome misunderstandings.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

No I think I'll put them in a shoe box and kick it around...

Of course I don't mistreat them. If I didn't care about them I would have let the lab euthanize them. HELPFUL COMMENTS OR NO COMMENTS



Got my camera back... pics to come soon.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

So here we go...

okay, first day in, you can see the exposed wood that I was concerned about. Standing puddles of unabsorbed pee stink up my apartment and the ammonia attacks laquer and I was concerned of fumes from the chemical reaction. 











But now I've used aquarium silicone to seal up corners where boards meet and the back where the wood is raw. And used some alligator clips to hold in some scrap fleece so that the wood doesn't soak and get an ammonia build up, that not only is unhealthy for them, annoys the crap out of me. 

The 'Loft'...










I tried tucking the excess fabric on the big ledge but they pull it out and crawl in there like a hammock. So the next piece I cut for that part I'm gonna make so they can do that but it look a little cleaner.


This is the litter area under the loft. I plan on putting in some more bird perches.

The 'Grotto'...











There are expansions to come as soon as I find time.

Phase 2... 










Which I plan to have a digging box in. Supposedly the favorite toy for most rats.

And phase 3...










Dunno what I'm gonna do here but more room is always a good thing.


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## xojesse (Apr 13, 2009)

That is awesome! I wish I could build something halfway decent or had a husband who could. All mine wants to do is play guitar or video games. Have you thought about using velcro to keep the fleece down? In craft sections of walmart, etc they sell Home Decor velcro. They're super sticky and can handle being washed multiple times if need be. That's what I use in my current cage because the floors are plastic, I see a lot of people use elastic but my cage has nothing to fasten it on with. So I sew one side of velcro to the 4 corners of the liners and stick the sticky piece on the bottom and that holds it snug. Before that they were going under the liner and peeing and pooping, then getting it on themselves when they felt like exploring down there. The home decor kind is sticky on both pieces so no sewing is needed.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Rats pee anywhere and everywhere...its a survival instinct to dribble pee to mark where they've been, you will NOT be able to stop them from doing this by training. Poop/litter pan training is different but a rat that urinates in the pan is a rarily indeed and causes many jaws to drop when we hear about it.

You need to cover ALL the exposed wood, fleece won't cut it because it just wicks the moisture down and into the wood. :

Painting is a very difficult thing, there's not many paints out there that aren't toxic to small animals. I would advise stick down lino tiles.

AND please edit your original subject line and take out the comment of the neck-snapping..it happens often enough in RL that we don't see it as funny, just offensive.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Yeah I should have thought of the stick on tiles before getting it all together. I cant reallty get them in there now... I'm gonna see if can figure out a way to do it some how, but hopes are low.

What about Vinyl? Line it with vinyl under the fleece?

Velcro was the first thing I thought of but the fleece wont stick on its own and I'm not skilled enough to line up sewing the fuzzy strips to the fleece in the right places. Plus with as much as they are chewing the lining it looks as though they'll be one time use and not worth that much trouble. 

Paint recomendations? I've heard there's special urine proof paint but i worry about them chewing it. 

The edges of the wood have been covered in silicone so the pee can't get to it. The finish on the wood keeps it from soaking in on the main surface.

I'm not worried about scent trail drops. I understand how that works, though it gets pretty anoying when it's my arm being marked on couch time. No, my concern were the big puddles I'd wake up to, that were WAY to big to just be single pees. They seem to have stoped with the fleece down. I don't ever see any big stains. 

I guess I just had it backwards, but I could have sworn I read all over that you can pee train them but they'll still drop turds any ol' where they please. I would have prefered that. The turds don't really stink any they clean up easy.

And I will not censor myself. The Vast majority here have no problem recognizing the obvious sarcasm in my statement. If I were someone who cared not for the well being of my animals would I go through the trouble of joining a forum to help me care for them?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ky_Zack said:


> And I will not censor myself. The Vast majority here have no problem recognizing the obvious sarcasm in my statement. *If I were someone who cared not for the well being of my animals would I go through the trouble of joining a forum to help me care for them? *


YOU obviously haven't been here very long have you?


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm sorry I don't follow. I am fairly new to the forum though. And as I am not used to being in forums with an all ages crowd I do make it point to censor foul language, which I generally use quite often, and humor of an adult nature, which I'm quite fond of. I've also been doing my best to play by Bambi rules but certain folk are just very adept at pushing my buttons.

Some things I have noticed...

For ever one helpful, courteously worded post, there are like five that are either completely useless, belittling or a combination of both. One's opinion is not necessarily fact and one should attack others for to having the exact same mind set as one's self. (this last paragraph is a rant that pertains to several other threads throughout my time here and not just this one)


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

This is a great supportive forum where people of all ages share their experiences and opinions.
It is not about who is right or who is wrong. Some members are too easily offended when people don't agree with them.


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## wizzyjo (Mar 3, 2009)

cage looks great aswell, pity it has to have problems :\ best of luck with figuring out how to sort them.


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Yes it's very frustrating to work on something so hard and then not have it work out like you intended...

I'm gonna try getting some flannel to line with instead of fleece. So there' will be actual absorption going on. The fleece holds the pee some, I can smell it and see it, but as someone pointed out, being made of polyester it's just wicking it down. The finish on the wood seems to be holding up fine but still... Maybe I'll get lucky and they wont chew it (that other thread had someone say their guys chew fleece but not the flannel).

I really wanted to get 'phase 2' done this week cuz I'm leaving them for the weekend. Alas I've been busy with a research paper all week.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ky_Zack said:


> I'm sorry I don't follow. I am fairly new to the forum though. And as I am not used to being in forums with an all ages crowd I do make it point to censor foul language, which I generally use quite often, and humor of an adult nature, which I'm quite fond of. I've also been doing my best to play by Bambi rules but certain folk are just very adept at pushing my buttons.
> 
> Some things I have noticed...
> 
> For ever one helpful, courteously worded post, there are like five that are either completely useless, belittling or a combination of both. One's opinion is not necessarily fact and one should attack others for to having the exact same mind set as one's self. (this last paragraph is a rant that pertains to several other threads throughout my time here and not just this one)


We have had a lot of people join the forum prior to you (I have been here years and years and others for even longer) and we helped them and then found to our horror that they were breeding them for snake food, or had pet rats and bred for snake food (but they were different rats yanno? one Food, one Fancy Rat), or that they were trolls...these types of things are very hard on a rat lover to take, so we do get a bit sensitive about comments of snapping necks, because it HAPPENS on rat forums...


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## Ky_Zack (Feb 14, 2009)

Hmm. Well then I guess I sort of appologize. I'm still not changing it. Please don't take that as a personal "eff you" or anything, I'm just a man of odd pricipals. 

Also, I've been thinking on it all week, and I may be able to get those stick on tiles in and then just cut away where the holes are with my dremel AFTER I stck them down. I just don't know if i'll have the room I need to work inside the cage.


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## joslynn06 (Mar 13, 2009)

Ky_Zack said:


> I'm sorry I don't follow. I am fairly new to the forum though. And as I am not used to being in forums with an all ages crowd I do make it point to censor foul language, which I generally use quite often, and humor of an adult nature, which I'm quite fond of. I've also been doing my best to play by Bambi rules but certain folk are just very adept at pushing my buttons.
> 
> Some things I have noticed...
> 
> For ever one helpful, courteously worded post, there are like five that are either completely useless, belittling or a combination of both. One's opinion is not necessarily fact and one should attack others for to having the exact same mind set as one's self. (this last paragraph is a rant that pertains to several other threads throughout my time here and not just this one)


ALL OF THIS. that's why I stopped posting here :/ 
EDIT: I forgot, I stopped posting at the other rat forum I joined for this same reason. My friend who had a kitten said the same thing happened to her at multiple pet forums. huh. 
I find it's best to just search archives and there's a good chance you'll find everything you need.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Ky_Zack your recent post in the health section reminded me of this one.

Isn't it interesting how things which are apparently said in jest, or sarcastically, always have a bit of truth to them?

Anyway, that aside I just thought I'd mention a wee discrepancy I noticed. 



Ky_Zack said:


> ... when my two year old rat gets a tumor, it saddens me greatly ...


Two? Really, she's two? Because I'm pretty sure Ky_Zack you introduced those rats to us as babies earlier this year. That'd mean your poor little tumour girl isn't even one and she still has a lot of living to do.

If you want to kid yourself that she's actually an old girl of two who’s had a long and fulfilled life so you'll feel better about your decision to let her die so be it. But don't lie to the rest of us about it.

Just saying....


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Ive posted this in two other threads now too

I think hes a troll...


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