# My ratties.



## whyhellothar

My first rats 









Cedric and Lisapo









Lisapo









Cedric

<3


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## ema-leigh

Where did you get them? They are gorgeous, but they look far too young to be away from mom. 

Also... are those pine shavings?


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## ][stacey][

Yeah i agree there very young looking in a tank but at that size look as if they could escape from alot of cages and appears to be on pine shavings :/ there cute tho


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## brass_gears

They look so adorable! They also appear to be the same age as mine when I got them. I don't see anything wrong with it though...they seem to become more attached to you later in life. Congrats! ;D


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## ema-leigh

You don't see nothing wrong with it? They NEED the nutrients from moms milk to grow properly. I have witnessed 7 week old babies still suckling from their mom! They are also not mentally ready to leave before five weeks at all. Your rat will bond at you the same, regardless of whether you get it at 4 weeks old or three months - as long as they have been well socialized from a young age. (From a breeder or rescue)


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## whyhellothar

To anyone who thinks they are too young, I have friends who are very experienced with rats. They said it was fine. I got them from one of those friends. They are on pine bedding. The rats are perfectly fine without the mother. And they always have access to the mom if they needed the mom.


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## ema-leigh

Your friends are so experienced that you told you pine bedding was okay? Its actually really toxic for rats and causes kidney and liver damage. :

And nope, I know what I'm talking about when I say, they are too young to be away from mom. How old are they exactly? They are either too young, or are very small for their age. :-\

How do they have access to mom at all times? ???


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## whyhellothar

If they needed mom, I can take them to my friends house where she lives. My friend uses pine bedding, and all of her rats have been fine with it. She's had alot of rats. My rats are okay. I dont remember how old exactly, I haven't kept track. Way older than a month is all I really know..about a couple months?


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## ema-leigh

Those rats are NOT a couple of months old!!! They still have baby features, they are under 7 weeks of age for sure!! 

PINE BEDDING IS NOT EXPECTABLE FOR RATS! 

Check out this link: http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm

Really I am not trying to be harsh, it is really bad for your rats! Whoever gave you these babies clearly knows nothing about rats - regardless of how long they have been keeping them for - this does not mean they are experienced. 

Ask ANYBODY on this site. Even look it up yourself.

Let me guess do you feed them pet store seed mixes?


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## ema-leigh

Thats good you can take them to mom when they need it. Because right now they still need it approx every 3 hours, even throughout the night.


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## whyhellothar

They seem to not need the mother. I don't really think I have anything to worry about. And with the pine bedding, how could it even cause anything internally? They are not consuming it.


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## whyhellothar

ema-leigh said:


> Those rats are NOT a couple of months old!!! They still have baby features, they are under 7 weeks of age for sure!!
> 
> PINE BEDDING IS NOT EXPECTABLE FOR RATS!
> 
> Check out this link: http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm
> 
> Really I am not trying to be harsh, it is really bad for your rats! Whoever gave you these babies clearly knows nothing about rats - regardless of how long they have been keeping them for - this does not mean they are experienced.
> 
> Ask ANYBODY on this site. Even look it up yourself.
> 
> Let me guess do you feed them pet store seed mixes?


I feed them rat food. its always in the tank. I also feed them other foods too. I have a list of whats safe and unsafe for them to eat, so dont flip about that either. Did you mean acceptable? or did you seriously just type expectable? The rats are probably almost 2 months old. They've been alive for that long. They're doing perfectly fine.


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## ema-leigh

This is one of my babies, hes 5 weeks and 2 days old in this picture. He was born June 11th 2010









That would make your rats VERY small 8 week olds. I would be supplementing their diets to help them grow... they are quite behind in their development. 

I think I meant to write Acceptable yeah, I wrote something else at first then edited it before posting... Obviously I didn't do a very good job lol, but my spelling is not really important right now.

Really though, the pine shavings are terrible for them! I use Newspaper, its cheap and easy to clean out every day or second day.


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## Kiko

Absolutely anyone you ask who knows anything about small animals will tell you Pine is BAD BAD BAD.

You can argue with us, but we all know whats right.
Look it up on our stickies, idiots did not write them. Experienced rat owners did.

Look it up anywhere. Even a vet will tell you it's bad.

use Aspen, it is the same price and not harmful.


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## Kiko

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/small-pet-care/rat-care.html

If you read this is says never use Pine or cedar


http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,21097.0.html

Our Own Sticky

Seriously. Look anywhere else, they will say the same thing.


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## whyhellothar

Im not gonna argue anymore. My rats are fine, and if you will just stop bugging me about pine, ill use newspaper, because the only thing i have in my town that sells pet supplies is walmart and they dont have a variety of choices.


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## ema-leigh

Were not bugging you or arguing. You made an ignorant statement on a public forum, that other people come to for advice. Our members have to jump onto it so other members are not getting incorrect information and harming their rats. I am also a rescue and have seen first hand what pine does to the rats - its not something to be taken lightly!

Newspaper is a good choice, you can shred it and make a fun bedding for them. You can also buy Yesterdays news cat litter, which is a litter made from recycled newspaper, at Walmart. Its safe to use with the rats.

What rat food do you feed them? because store bought mixes are actually really bad for them. Would you be open to hearing suggestions on ways you can give them a good healthy diet?


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## whyhellothar

My rat food just says premium pet rat and mouse food. I talked to my friend. She said pines questionable but her rats are fine, and shes been raising her rats the same for five years and never had problems. Im open to any food suggestions, though.


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## Kiko

Does it have seeds? Nuts, and anything like that?
If so it is bad for them. Has no nutritional value. 

Are you by chance willing to order food online?
Harlan teklad is great for rats, and very affordable at just 1$ per pound. 
So 5$ plus shipping for a 5 pound bag of food that would last a while and keep your rats healthy.


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## whyhellothar

It depends on if my moter would be willig to buy online until i have money. But, probably. Theres no seed or nuts in it.


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## ema-leigh

Its not questionable, its proven toxic. Of course her rats seem okay, the damage is all in their organs. Ask her how old her rats live to be on the pine, does she ever have any necropsy's done to determined cause of death? I bet her rats don't have gorgeous shiny coats and some are wheezy. To be honest, any moron could breed rats, theres a difference between doing it, and doing it right. 

Any seed mix is garbage, its all fatty seeds and nuts. Instead of carb based grains - which is what they need. A REALLY great food which provides all the nutrients they need, yet is still readily available and a good price is Hamsters Living World Extrusion (the only hamster food thats good for rats!) If you can, I would highly suggest switching to this food, its a lab block and will give them all the nutrients they need to thrive! 

You could also pick up some ensure or infant milk replacer and give them small amounts, because honestly these babies look like they are under 1 month old to me. Either way, they are small and it will help them grow a bit. Additional protien treats such as chicken, salmon and boiled egg would also be great for them right now!


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## Kiko

Is it Kaytee blocks?


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## whyhellothar

Its in block form, in a way. Its made with alot of grains. Anyway, my rats seem happy and they often vibrate and make that weird purring type noise that i forget the name of. They seem happy.


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## ema-leigh

It depends what type of grain it is, some are very poor quality. Read the ingredients. What protien percentage does it say on the package? What is the name and brand of the food? What are the ingredients?


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## Kiko

If it is Kaytee then it is bad.
Thats the only store bought block I can think of.
Unless it is Mazuri which is a good food.


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## ema-leigh

Theres carefresh and forti-diet....

The only good blocks are Harlan, Oxbow, Mazuri and Hamsters Living World Extrusion.


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## Kiko

If none of those are available to you then a high quality dog food with lots of fresh foods can be a good substitute IF no other food can be obtained.


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## ema-leigh

Feeding dog food full time can be hard on their kidneys. In the event you can't find any decent food I would just make a basic mix from grains brought at the grocery store. I could help you out with that if you need a list of ingredients and how much to use etc.


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## whyhellothar

Its not a brand name. Its just the box I got at walmart the says "Premium pet mouse and rat food" the ingredients list is too long, so the basics are corn, wheat, vitamins, etc. Grains and vitamins. That cant be bad.


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## Em

This is why I always research a new pet. I get my first rescue Rats next week, and I have learnt so much before hand. I knew about the shavings, I suggest an old towl to line your babies cage  good luck,, and perhaps pop them back to Mummy for a few weeks just to be sure ...


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## whyhellothar

I honestly dont think they need mom. They are definately not too young to be away from her. My rats are okay. I appreciate the advice from everyone, but as long as my rats are perfectly healthy (which they are), I think I'll keep up my way of doing it. I might take little bits of your advice, but not all of it.


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## ][stacey][

Why did u join the forum if ur not willing to accept advice off people that KNOW what there talking about i just think its a bit silly is all... and altho ur rats may seem healthy u cant say for sure they are and whats happening know could well affect their future but whatever basically because that is basically what u r saying to these people that have tried to HELP you. Youve said u MIGHT take LITTLE bits of their advice :/ I guess the chance u might take little advice is better than taking none eh


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## Capistrono

The only reason we're saying these things is because we want what's best for the rats. When I got my first rat he was alone, and I was using a too small cage as well as pine bedding. He is now in a huge cage with 2 other buddies and fleece instead of pine being used. He is SO much happier now, believe me. If you truly want what's best for these animals, you'll at least look at some other websites before disregarding our information.


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## stephaniechung

Most pet owners have the best intentions when it comes to rats. Especially if they're coming to forums to show off their rats or just to get some advice. I can totally understand if you only came here for people to see your ratties and you weren't seeking any criticism or advice. You have new rats, they're cute, you want people to see. I can see why you would feel taken aback by what people have said right off the bat, but I'm sure they meant well.

However, that said, if you are a new rat owner, I really do suggest you do some research on your own and not rely on what other people have told you (friend or otherwise). Rats are prey animals. They're afraid of being hunted. They hide the fact that they're sick. They just don't want to look weak. Usually by the time they show symptoms, it's too late and they die. So yea, your rats look fine and happy but it doesn't mean they are.


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## ema-leigh

Yes, there is no tone of voice over a computer... but I am really not trying to attack you. Your 'friends' have clearly misinformed you on proper rat care and husbandry. Its likely they told you the wrong birth date because they don't even know themselves. People like this, you certainly don't want to be adopting rats from! 

All rat food has brands. I know exactly what bag of food your talking about. Walmart only retails a few select types. You ARE talking about Kaytee, hence the words 'Kaytee' on the front of the bag. This is pure crap, and it does contain nuts.. theres TONS of peanuts. This food has been known to have mold growing in fresh bags! 

You don't have to take our advice. But maybe you could at least spend a few minutes researching each of the issues we raised and find out some info for yourself. Were not saying your a terrible person because of it, most of the people on this site started off with rats in a tank on pine shavings. I blame the pet stores for setting such a low standard of care for them.


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## Capistrono

I did forget to mention this though...I had an accidental litter with one of my girls and she was quite small and her babies did look bigger then these, but not by much. I do believe it's possible these babies are old enough to be away from mom. You might want to give them some ensure though, to make sure they grow up nice and big!


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## whyhellothar

I joined to show my adorable rats to members of the forum, and to read and get advice. I've gotten your advice, but I'm not gonna change the way I keep my rats until a vet tells me theres something wrong with my rats because of it. Im very glad you all care and want to help, but I've done enough research to know my rats will probably be fine.


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## ema-leigh

Then you clearly have not done any research at all. Because EVERY source will tell you exactly what we have.

Sadly, some people just are not willing to see outside their own ignorance.


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## stephaniechung

I think it's sad that instead of taking preventable measures to keep your rats healthy, you're going to wait until they are sick before saying "Oh I should have changed that." 

Your reason about getting advice from here is crap. If you wanted advice on rats, you would have taken it from the bunch of people that were trying to help you out.

I hope you open your eyes a bit and do some research or else you're just as ignorant as the breeder you got your rats from.


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## Capistrono

You say you joined to get advice, then refuse to listen to it?
If you aren't even willing to do something as simple as change the bedding you're using, I really fear for these rats when they need to go to the vet. Bills can get very high.


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## oatsnyogurt

I don't understand why you won't listen? It would be cheaper for you and healthier for the rats in the long run to change from pine to fleece, aspen, carefresh, or even newspaper! And to change from Kaytee to Mazuri or Harlan or Oxbow! If you can't aford to give them proper care, than maybe you should find them a new home. :-\

If you go to any other good rat forum, they will tell you exactly what we are telling you. 
I got my first rat from a place where she was being kept on pine and was fed Kaytee and was living in a 20 gallon take along with 5 other adult female rats, she died the third day I had her.

Do some *good* research and take our advise for crying out loud!


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## whyhellothar

MY RATS ARE FINE! My bedding isnt gonna hurt them! My friend has been keeping her rats in pine bedding for 5 years! You're all telling me im ignorant. I'm done. Im NOT coming back to this forum if all I have to see is people criticizing me because of the kind of bedding I use. My rats are perfectly fine and will be, and if they ever get sick, I'll come back to tell you so you can bask in your glory. I am done. Goodbye.


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## oatsnyogurt

We don't want your rats to get sick, we would never 'bask in our glory' if they did. We are just trying to make sure they that they stay healthy.


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## ema-leigh

TROLL!  Doom on you for keeping your ratties on pine and feeding them crap. 

We would never bask in our glory... you know if you ever did come back needing help... members on this forum would go out of their ways to help your rats. We've had people on here send medication and money to help others. Your poor little rats, by the time you realized what the bedding has done to them... it will be too late. 

In the of chance you'll read this, the reason the shavings are bad is because they contain aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) and acids that are toxic to all small animals. The damage is done internally, to their liver and respiratory system. By the time they are sneezing and sick, there will also be considerate damage done to their organs. I'm sure your experienced breeder friends will tell you its normal for rats to have big red rings of porphyrin around their eyes but its not! It means they are sick or stressed.


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## stephaniechung

whyhellothar said:


> Im not gonna argue anymore. My rats are fine, and if you will just stop bugging me about pine, ill use newspaper, because the only thing i have in my town that sells pet supplies is walmart and they dont have a variety of choices.


I know you're gone. But I hope you'll still consider switching to at least newspaper. Sorry our advice came out as criticism and that I, personally, called you ignorant. I think we can all say, we were only trying to help. I wish you the best.


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## Kiko

I smell a troll.


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## Jaguar

i can't smell the troll over the smell of phenol oils and ammonia build up coming from those cedar chips and tank! :

too bad those rats will have to suffer until they realize we're all right, though...


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## eddricksmommy101

:l
You should not own rats.


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## PEG

This is the food they are feeding their rats : http://www.walmart.com/ip/8In1-Pet-...od-Premium-Pet-Mouse-Rat-Food-1.5-lb/10318434

I knew it immediately once reading their post about it cause it's what I USED to feed my girls before I became better educated...Now I have HT being delivered on Tuesday and they are eating my dog food until it gets here.


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## xDhello

I don't care if this is an old thread, but I saw this and thought "Well these people are really mean." I'm friends with the guy who owns these animals, and his rats are still perfectly healthy today. They have not had any problems living in the same tank that he scrubs and cleans every week, and changes the bedding twice a week. He's not a bad pet owner. He feeds them, bathes them when they need it, gives them water, and plays with them. They rats are very happy and healthy, and I thought all of you should know that, because you all doubted him.
Thanks.


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## Kiko

Is that all you came here to say? ???


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## Jaguar

I just don't understand how one could not take the advice of everyone on this forum seriously, considering some of us have been keeping rats for many, many, many years - some longer than even I have been alive. His rats may be healthy, but with an animal that only lives so long, you want to ensure that they're going to live the longest life and give them the best care possible. Keeping them in a tiny tank and changing the crappy pine bedding every TWO WEEKS and feeding them a junky food from Wal Mart is not the way to go about doing that. We were not "really mean", we just don't take lightly to people outright refusing to change the care of their animals for their wellbeing, and being blatantly ignorant to the advice of people who are far more experinced than themselves. He's not a bad pet owner, just, unfortunately for the rats, a stupid one (as if there's a difference!) but what do I know, right?

TL;DR - basics of rat care - you're doin' it wrong.


Welcome to the forum. If you're going to continue to spout blundering idiocy, please refrain from posting again.


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