# I'm not sure I can do this.



## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

My son is a snake owner, and no matter how I have argued the point with him, he insists on live feeding. The last dinner he bought for his snake was refused. The snake went through a moult shortly after and it's been about 2 months that this rat waited to be dinner. I think he is about 5 months old at this point, judging by his size. Now, the rat is too large for the snake and I "inherited" him. He has always shown curiosity when I have been around, and he has taken treats from us. I have handed him a peanut in a ping pong ball and a dog treat coated in peanut butter. I have always been tempted to kidnap the little guy, but now he is not so little and I am about as wary of him as he is of me. I am not sure what will happen to him if I can't work this out, but I am not sure I can.

Our first session did not go really well. The entire session was with him in his tank, because I am afraid to let him loose before I know I will be able to touch or pick him up without damage. I let him sniff my hand several times and he keeps leading with his teeth. It's more like he wants to taste me than bite, but he did bite me twice. Both bites he just barely broke the skin with his upper teeth but not with his lower teeth. If he really wanted to hurt me it would have been much worse. I have tried to touch him and he dodges every attempt, twice he squeaked when I tried. I fed him some veges with a plastic spoon, and he takes the food and eats it in front of me and licks the spoon while I hold it. Some things seem to be promising, but others not so much. After I get heavy gloves, what's next? Is this doable??


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## xAnnaVictoriax (Apr 27, 2013)

It takes many days/weeks before a rat will get completely comfortable with you. He is most likely really scared after being in with that snake. 
When I get a new rat, I put them on the bed with me while I'm on the computer and just let him sniff around/hang out. Lay some small fleece blankets out for him to hide under/play in. Let him come to you when his curiosity peaks. If you dont want him on the bed, try the tub (he can't get out of that unless he jumps pretty high, and even then you can block him from escape. Or try a play pen. & remember that if you are scared, he is scared. Remain calm and collected as much as possible. 
It's definitely a good sign if he is taking food from you. I think after some work you two will be just fine


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Until he at least stops biting, I'm going to be too afraid of him to try to get him out of the tank. I so want to put him in a cage, but I'm scared to try. Once we get past the biting, if ever, I think I will be able to take it from there. Not my first rat, but my first biter, even though he doesn't seem to be trying to hurt me. Of course that could change any time if I don't do this right.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Is your son on his own financially? In the case that you are providing the money, you get a say in the purchases.


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## xAnnaVictoriax (Apr 27, 2013)

raindear said:


> Until he at least stops biting, I'm going to be too afraid of him to try to get him out of the tank. I so want to put him in a cage, but I'm scared to try. Once we get past the biting, if ever, I think I will be able to take it from there. Not my first rat, but my first biter, even though he doesn't seem to be trying to hurt me. Of course that could change any time if I don't do this right.


My bad D: All I can think for that is the gloves, like you said. Maybe he would become more comfortable in the cage instead of the tank? Where he isn't being reached down upon, but rather at eye level. Best of luck to you


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First get yourself a pair of welding gloves or oven mitts, this way you will be able to more safely handle your new rat. Then find yourself a place where you and he can get on face to face terms and interact. Bathrooms, hallways and other small spaces are excellent for this. Then take a look at my immersion thread on what to do there.

Your rat is much smarter than your son's snake. It really is much more than a dog than a small animal. If you were going to befriend a puppy, you most likely wouldn't do it through glass or cage bars... 

I do understand the risks you are taking, this rat hasn't been socialized. Bring towels wear thick clothes and keep him away from your face at first for your own protection... there's nothing heroic about being rat bitten by a confused or frightened rat but you really need to get in there and make friends one on one. Remember rats are pack animals and this rat really wants/needs a friend so nature is on your side.

Best luck.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Is your son on his own financially? In the case that you are providing the money, you get a say in the purchases.


When I had a say, he chose not to have a snake because I wouldn't let him feed live in my house. He is over 40 I have no say except that I did interfere enough to give this guy treats and chew toys when I visited. And a home, now.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm not sure I would glove up just yet, even if it is for your comfort as gloves can cause a bite - it's not recognized as skin. 

I would get a small animal carrier and a place that is confined with no holes. I'm talking an enclosed shower, walk in closet, even a hall with doors closed and the entrance blocked. Habituated him to the carrier, tip his tank into it and let him explore. While he's in the carrier, give treats. Then take the carrier to the safe zone and tip him out. Close the carrier or set it aside and interact with him, bring plenty of treats. If he uses too much force, gently but firmly say no. I usually bring a book and give the new rat an hour or so to explore me with me minimally interacting, then as they're comfortable I begin to interact - soft pets, quick handling (scoop!). The point of the carrier is if anything goes wrong you can get him to run to it as it is safe. You can also use the carrier to bring him with you like to the couch or somewher you don't want him to explore but you want to interact with him in.


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## TanyaB (Apr 13, 2015)

So this is obviously hard for you and I have no advice to give, I'm sure the advice above is wonderful. I just wanted to tell you how awesome I think you are for taking in the rat, even knowing it had not been raised with an intent to be a family pet. Good on you. And yeah, poor rat - going through time with a snake and living to tell the tale!


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree with Rat Daddy's advise. The sooner you start immersion, the sooner you guys will be bonded.
Where gloves to start off with!


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

1st session was with him in his tank. For about 1 1/2 hours I attempted to touch him whenever he was on my side of the tank and generally left him alone when he was on the other side of the tank. Took a break. I grabbed a teaspoon and some vegetable soup and went back at it for another 1 1/2 to 2 hours wearing gloves because of the previous bites. At the end of that time he would follow the spoon about halfway across the cage to get the nummies. At 65 I tend to get sore if I sit in one position too long so that was all for yesterday.

2nd session I wore gloves to get him out of the tank. He didn't try to bite me though it was scarey for him, so I took the gloves off for the rest of the session. The session lasted about 3 to 3 1/2 hours. Outside of the tank he won't take food from me, but I did have his water bottle set up so he could get a drink and he did. When he was close enough to me, I would try to pet him and he allowed it a little. He did spend about 30 minutes within an inch of my hip, but in the position he was in it was difficult for me to see him or reach him to try to pet him. When I had to move cause I was getting stiff, he pretty much freaked. I got a few other chances to pet him a little, still won't take food from me outside his cage or eat near me when I gave him the opportunity. Used gloves again to catch him and put him in a cage. Just as hard as getting him out of the tank. But with this cage, I can just take the top off for our next session, so it might be less scarey. Next time, also, I will block off a bit more of the bathroom so we have less room to run. I might make another run this evening, if my body lets me. I think this little guy is going to be my most difficult, but it will be worth it if I can give him some lovin to make up for all he has missed.

Thank you for the support and advice. I will try to continue to give updates, and I may cry a bit when things go slowly. Oh, yeah. By the way his name is Petey.


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## RattusMaximus (Apr 6, 2015)

Give Petey hugs from me! ;D
What color is he?


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Petey's a black hooded rat, RattusMaximus. I'll tell him you said "hello". The hugs will have to wait till he is ready.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I've bled and cried and cursed biting rats, but I'll never regret it. We are all here for you, hoping the best for you and Petey.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Nanashi, 

Some time back I coached a person through an extreme immersion and they wrote me... "I don't mind getting bitten, I'd rather not wear gloves." In their defense, they were successful and got through a difficult immersion in near record time. I suppose I even understand the philosophy of no pain no gain and the red badge of courage...

But most people become afraid when they get bitten, it hurts, it bleeds and it can get infected. Then they become fearful and withdrawn and the immersion process gets 10 times harder. I've worked with lots of rats and I'm pretty good at reading their signals and don't usually get bitten so I don't usually wear gloves either, but lots of folks are new and aren't likely to pick up signals in time.

So yes rats can tell the difference between skin and leather and it might slow things down just a little, but a nasty bite, an infection and a late night ER visit are going to slow down the bonding process a whole lot more.

Remember, I specialize in extreme shoulder ratting, taking rats where they have never gone before and doing things that would look crazy to most rat owners. But I get away with it, because I have a lot of experience and very well trained rats. I guess that makes it easier for me to say "do as I say, not as I do". 

Most new rat owners aren't signing up for bites or injuries, many are extremely pain averse and some are actually just a bit afraid of their new rats. I agree it's a trade off, but if gloves prevent injuries or even just make people feel safer getting their rats out of the cage, it's better for everyone in the long run.

I know it sometimes feels just a little bit hypocritical to tell other people to do something that you don't do yourself, but sometimes it's just the right thing to do.

Raindear,

As an older person myself, I understand the idea of shrinking down the size of the space you are using, I usually do immersion with my daughter who is 9 years old and she's very agile and active and she can really fill space and cover ground with the new rats so a larger immersion area is better. If I am working alone, I prefer smaller spaces too.

As to taking treats from you, this isn't really that critical, all rats go through an introduction process in order to become friends and build bonds and rats don't give other rats treats. It's OK if your rat doesn't see you as a vending machine yet, that's not your goal anyway. Your goal is to be friends and that can be accomplished without treats although they certainly don't hurt. That said once your rat gets to know and trust you, you will have a hard time keeping him out of your food. Yesterday I had to "rescue" our rat from a pot of cold rice she dove into like a swimming pool and rescue a poor innocent chocolate moose from her. I've never had a rat that wouldn't try to dive down my throat after a snickers bar. Have no fear, your rat will eventually take food from you, no matter how much you object or try and defend yourself.

It sounds like you are making very good progress.

Best luck.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I was comparing his reactions from what they had been in the tank, where he did take treats to his reactions out of the tank and in the bathroom where he didn't. Still being unsure of him, I offer him treats on a plastic spoon at present. Not taking treats in the bathroom is not a problem. It's just a behavioral difference I noted.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Ok, day 3. About 3 hours. I had Petey in a single level cage so I just removed the cage top and left Petey in the bottom. He explored a little bit generally staying out of reach for the most part. He laid down on the far side of the cage floor and went to sleep. Both of the previous days, he would go into a "freeze" when he was on the far side of the room and watch me unblinking and unmoving so I am pleased that today he went to sleep with me sitting there. He slept for about 1/2 hour and then explored a while, let me pet him once then curled up again to sleep. At this point I put everything back together. I guess I really shouldn't have started today at about 1 o'clock. Tomorrow, I'll try to do a session early in the morning and later in the afternoon. I may still do another session later today, when he is a bit more active. No bites, no attempts at biting and no gloves today.


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## RiddlesMum (Mar 25, 2015)

Is he living in your house though?


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

It sounds like you're making a LOT of progress and that's super exciting!!!! Petey is sooo lucky to have you. ^_^

As for the immersion process, if he's not biting.. Maybe instead of having him in the bathroom, try setting him on your lap in a comfy spot?

My go to bonding time is on my recliner.
The boys don't crawl off of it.. They're always on my lap. But they enjoy running around on it/on me. 

Maybe that would be more beneficial to avoid aches and pains!


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

RiddlesMum, no he doesn't live with me, but he is close and we visit each other often. I have argued this point with him for over 20 years. I wouldn't let him live feed in my house, so he didn't own a snake while he lived there. Right now, my focus is on helping this little guy and while I hope that this experience allows my son to see things in a different light, that is another issue entirely. 

AdequateRat, Thanks. So far it is baby steps. I am still unsure about picking him up. It was such a battle both times I did it. As soon as I feel like I can pick him up without traumatizing both of us we will move to a chair for sure. Yeah, except for the most skittish younguns, my recliner was my bonding spot too. But Petey and have to like each other a bit more before I expose him to the 4 dogs and 3 cats that live here.

Today, he let me pet him longer than previously and I even snuck in a bit of scritching once. He's still not sure he likes to be touched but he allows a little more every day. I took a sofa cushion and a couple of pillows with me and was much more comfortable. Baby steps, it's all baby steps, but so far they all seem to be forward so that's good.

I think I forgot to mention that Petey is a dumbo. Black hooded for anyone who missed that.


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

Do you think that the immersion process could potentially be slower as he is still at your son's?
Maybe he's terrified of his surroundings there... You never know, maybe taking back to your place may make the immersion much easier... Putting him in a quiet room in your house, could make him feel a lot safer.

Has the rat been placed in the cage with your son's snake? 

I'd take the rattie away immediately.. I don't really know if rats have long term memory, but maybe the rat doesn't feel safe in your son's home to begin with due to past experiences. 

I'm really happy to hear that things seem to be going well!


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## RiddlesMum (Mar 25, 2015)

Oh crap, sorry to hear that, it would have been much easier if you could have threatened him with lack of food etc, if he kept it up


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Petey is not at my son's place. I was responding to RiddlesMum's question which I think was referring to whether my son was living in my house and whether I should be able to control his actions. Petey is in my house, in a new cage with no old associations attached. I do think he feels safer here. From some of RatDaddy's stories, I believe they do remember past events and people/rats. If your referring to my comment about not introducing him to the other animals here, I meant I don't want to have him in my lap without a cage protecting him til he trusts me more. He is certainly getting to see everyone from a safe distance right now, but I need him to trust me more before exposing him more openly to everyone.


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

raindear said:


> Petey is not at my son's place. I was responding to RiddlesMum's question which I think was referring to whether my son was living in my house and whether I should be able to control his actions. Petey is in my house, in a new cage with no old associations attached. I do think he feels safer here. From some of RatDaddy's stories, I believe they do remember past events and people/rats. If your referring to my comment about not introducing him to the other animals here, I meant I don't want to have him in my lap without a cage protecting him til he trusts me more. He is certainly getting to see everyone from a safe distance right now, but I need him to trust me more before exposing him more openly to everyone.



OOOH!! I totally misread. I thought the rattie was still at your son's! My apologies!
Well that's good that he's safe with you now.

You're right on track! (I apparently have selective reading today haha.)


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

No problem AdequateRat, the whole thing was easily misunderstood.

I really think Petey feels safer here. Today, if we passed his cage while he was sleeping, he continued to sleep. Before, if someone approached his cage even while he was sleeping, he was immediately on full alert and watching. I so want to cuddle and hold him, but he won't let me right now. Slow and steady I tell myself.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's OK to push a little when socializing a rat. Unlike humans rats deal pretty well with stress. Mostly, it's fight or flight and then back to normal. Humans are unusual creatures in that we let stress build up and make us sick.

It's normal for any rat to exhibit signs of stress when anything changes, to some extent you can work or push through it. When a rat gets overstressed it panics, that's the sign you are at it's limit. Up to that point you are still on the learning curve. And just like humans we tend to learn faster when stressed up to a certain point.

It's easy for me to know how far I can push it, but harder to describe... go too slow and nothing improves, too fast and you will get a panic reaction, again not all bad because rats get over it pretty fast.

If I may add, wild rats get terrorized every day in normal life. As they forage for food predators turn up and chase them, things fall on them, subway trains blow by, cars honk raptors dive on them... etc. If a rat got too stressed to easily it would just hunker down in it's burrow and starve to death. But we know they don't do that. They fight or run, they calm down and they proceed with their lives... possibly good advise for us humans.

The record longest immersion ever was done by a young lady who bought a rat although she was terrified of rats... She wore boots, double pants, a coat, gloves, hat and covered herself in a blanket. After about 4 weeks of sessions... I got a desperate text saying that she was frozen under her covers texting on her phone while her rat was tasted her face and licking off her tears... most likely deciding where to bite her... Otherwise it was napping on her chest and wouldn't get off her. It took a whole lot of convincing but I finally got her to actually touch her rat, and as she had no other choice and her rat wasn't getting off her. I'm thinking everyone knows what happened from there... she touched her rat and it didn't run away or bite, then she took off one glove and skritched him and got more licks and within a couple hours she got brave enough to remove some covers and respond to her rat in a relatively normal way... It's one of the few cases where the rat ever took the lead in immersion and coaxed out a panicking human. On the up side, they became best friends, but letting a rat set the pace can take a very long time. I might add that the rat in question had to be one of the most patient and gentle animals anyone has ever worked with. It kept engaging her, she finally responded, it replied and communication was achieved... From a coaching perspective it was a real experience, but it taught me to try and see what's going on through someone else's eyes. I pretty much knew after about an hour of day 1 that the rat was ready to start bonding, but it took another 4 weeks for me, and the rat to get the human past her fears.

In a strange twist of irony, she had adopted a second rat to keep her first rat company while she was unable to touch him... I've got to say that adopting a second rat because your first rat terrorizes you is uncommon, but she also took in a rat friendly roommate who helped in socializing her second rat, who wasn't quite as laid back as her first and everything worked out. 

I know, sometimes I can sound just a little pushy, but that's because I have to try and read between the lines, sometimes I've got to try and decide if the human is being overly cautious or the rat is really not ready for the next step. And yes Petey has had some bad experiences when he got picked up. He got picked up and taken away from his mom and dumped into a raising bin with many strange rats. Then he got picked up again and shipped to a pet shop and again dropped into a bin with strangers then he got picked up again and dropped in with a snake... perhaps multiple times... Getting picked up isn't exactly associated with good things happening, but the only way that changes is by him getting picked up and having good things happen... He isn't likely to change his opinion on his own.

So, I hope my example makes sense... and although you don't want to panic Petey, you are going to have to push a little and he is going to be stressed before he gets better. Eventually he might take the lead, but you can't count on it and it can take a very long time... Every time Petey gets picked up and something nice happens makes him want to get picked up more and less fearful that something bad will happen. Every time he gets a treat or a kind word or a gently skritch he will feel more reassured. It really isn't a matter of chronological time, but rather a matter of good versus bad experiences. In my example, if the rat hadn't finally planted himself on his human and kept licking her face until she touched him, she never would have reached out on her own. She was absolutely terrified but that's what it took for her to finally come around and start bonding with her rat.

I think you are actually doing very well given where Petey came from and what he's been through. Try and be as engaging as possible and keep the momentum going.

Best luck.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Until I was 50 or so I always thought rats were "eewwww". I'm not sure that even then I could have been considered afraid of them, but I didn't consider them "pet" material. If I saw someone on the street with one I studiously ignored them. Then I saw a program on Animal Planet that showed Siamese and naked rats. My curiosity was peaked. What colors do pet rats come in?? Well, just trying to answer that question opened my eyes in many ways. It also led to me ultimately having a mixed mischief of 13 rats of varying personalities. 

It's kind of funny that you are parroting the advice that I give back to me. I should listen to both of us and take Petey "kicking and screaming to the circus". My only excuse is that I am shy of being bitten, though Petey hasn't bitten - me - really hard. He does still "experiment" bite me and I still tell him "NO". It's like he's checking his limits. I will have to pick him up soon if only to be able to clean his cage. We'll get there I promise. In less than 4 weeks I'm sure.

Today, Petey discovered the joys of tunneling under the fleece and for perhaps half an hour I was stroking and petting him from outside the fleece. Later, my sister put her hand in his cage and just laid it on the floor of the cage for several seconds. Petey charged and bit her fairly hard. I saw it coming when he charged, but she didn't. It's likely to be a while before she tries anything like that again.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not sure what's up with people that offer their hands as rat snacks... I suppose it works better with dogs, but it doesn't usually end well with rats. I usually keep my hands slowly moving and at eye level of above with rats I don't know. Frightened rats will back off, aggressive rats will lower their bodies and raise their head and track your hand, inquisitive or socialized rats will start sniffing or lower their heads.

It's a trick I've used in pet shops to demo how friendly rats can be... I reach my hand around the bin and pluck out a rat and put it on my shoulder and carry it around while I tell interested people about rats... I know which rat is going to jump away, which is going to sit there all friendly and which one is going to spill my blood just by how they react to my hand. You can't always be 100% certain about the losers, but a great friendly rat stands out in a crowd and is easy to pick and pick up. Sometimes you will even find one in the group that stands up and sniffs your fingers or follows your hand around... this one will usually make for a perfect demo rat. Not to mention it's likely to be the best pet and friend in the batch.

I really don't like the idea of ever working with a new rat in its cage. It's a real estate issue and the floor gives both rat and human more maneuvering room on equal and neutral territory.

Although I don't believe in "cage aggression" the common wisdom is that more bites happen in cages than anywhere else.


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## erinsweeney (Nov 13, 2014)

Longtime snake owner here--when done properly, live feeding is much more beneficial to most herps than frozen. That said, it doesn't sound like your son is doing it properly. You should visit the ball python forum (google should be easy to find it) and learn about switching over to frozen prey.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

erinsweeney said:


> Longtime snake owner here--when done properly, live feeding is much more beneficial to most herps than frozen. That said, it doesn't sound like your son is doing it properly. You should visit the ball python forum (google should be easy to find it) and learn about switching over to frozen prey.


In the matter of feeding/owning the snake - I have no say in the matter, period. I am not an expert on snakes. I had one when I was a teenager (1962-1965) that was fed fresh caught dead mice (we had a minor rodent infestation). I bought a snake for my son when he was 12. We fed it live mice. One day its dinner ate it. Later I discovered F/T, but my husband is not about to allow a snake in the house. When my son showed interest in a snake I discussed the matter with him and we agreed to disagree. As to whether he is doing it right - I really don't know. About 2 months ago Petey was offered to Sue as dinner. Sue refused to eat. Shortly after she went into a moult which lasted longer than expected. When she was offered Petey again, she refused again, and perhaps one more time. Then it was decided that perhaps Petey was too large for Sue and would be better off with me. One thing I can say about F/T feeding is that a frozen dinner is far easier to dispose of.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm not sure what's up with people that offer their hands as rat snacks... I suppose it works better with dogs, but it doesn't usually end well with rats. I usually keep my hands slowly moving and at eye level of above with rats I don't know. Frightened rats will back off, aggressive rats will lower their bodies and raise their head and track your hand, inquisitive or socialized rats will start sniffing or lower their heads.
> 
> It's a trick I've used in pet shops to demo how friendly rats can be... I reach my hand around the bin and pluck out a rat and put it on my shoulder and carry it around while I tell interested people about rats... I know which rat is going to jump away, which is going to sit there all friendly and which one is going to spill my blood just by how they react to my hand. You can't always be 100% certain about the losers, but a great friendly rat stands out in a crowd and is easy to pick and pick up. Sometimes you will even find one in the group that stands up and sniffs your fingers or follows your hand around... this one will usually make for a perfect demo rat. Not to mention it's likely to be the best pet and friend in the batch.
> 
> ...



My sister often acts foolishly with animals. My Quaker Parakeet says "Kiss, Kiss", she puts her lips next to the cage bars. I try to tell her, but she doesn't often listen.

So last night I took Petey into the bathroom and picked him up - lots of kicking, no screaming, no biting. Things were going well until he decided he had to explore the part of the bathroom that was on my other side - where the toilet is. I thought I had the toiled fairly well blocked so he couldn't get behind it, but I still didn't want him over there. He managed to squirm away from me and get over there and much more quickly than I would have expected found his way behind the toilet. So several minutes of chasing elusive rat ensued. Stinky Pete! A step backward. Oh well, I never didn't have at least one step backward. I suddenly remembered I have a partial sheet of corrugated plastic. That won't happen again.

This morning I set up a wall between the counter and toilet and took Petey into the bathroom. Today for the entire hour and a half he was frantic. Just really running the whole time. I hope he calms down for tonight's session.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LOL, Every rat that becomes house competent in our house turns up with wet brown stains on their back. I have no clue what that's from... maybe there's a radiator or plumbing leak or some wet spot somewhere in the house, but every rat finds it at least once... Then they don't do it or go there again... And I've had a few rats that found the toilet brush particularly interesting to knock over and examine. Once my daughter spilled some sickly sweet kiddie perfume and our part wild rat rolled around in it like a dog on a dead fish... I'm not sure what was worse. But rats are born explorers, it's just what they do and once they get their heads set on something they want to explore or somewhere they want to go, they can get pretty stubborn about it.


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

I honestly don't know what the infatuation is with behind the toilet.. I feel for yeah.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I really got the feeling that it was just a good place to hide where I couldn't easily reach him. All he had to do was take three steps and I had to approach from the other side. I hate chasing an unbonded rat down. It would be funnier if I didn't feel like such a meanie chasing him around and around the toilet. Oh, my. Now, I'm laughing about it.


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

raindear said:


> I really got the feeling that it was just a good place to hide where I couldn't easily reach him. All he had to do was take three steps and I had to approach from the other side. I hate chasing an unbonded rat down. It would be funnier if I didn't feel like such a meanie chasing him around and around the toilet. Oh, my. Now, I'm laughing about it.


Hahah. 

My little ones are still sort of hand shy, so I feel bad too when I have to grab them from behind the toilet.
It is still kind of funny though xD


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Shy nothing! My rats enjoy making me look foolish.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Well, yesterday morning Petey crawled across my lap to get to the other side of me in the bathroom. Prior to this he got to the other side of my lap after I picked him up and he ran away from me in that direction, so I was thrilled when he willingly jumped on me to run to the other side. Then, last night he was being very busy, not holding still for long enough for me to pet him twice. He was running under my legs and humping his back to let me know I needed to lift it up and make room for him. I was sitting there wondering if I pick him up 150-200-1000 times and pet, cuddle, belly kiss and snuggle him, he will eventually come to the conclusion that being picked up isn't all that bad. Then I wondered, "What if he thinks pets, cuddles, belly kisses and snuggles are fates worse than death?". When suddenly he settled down on my lap and allowed me to pet him for about 5 minutes. Breakthrough!! Today, I sat with him on the recliner and he was much more calm than he has been. I think I can do this, now. It wasn't nearly as bad as I feared it would be. We're not exactly friends, but he isn't afraid of me, I'm not afraid of him and that's a good start. 

We're going on a trip to Washington in a few days. I'm trying to figure out a way to take him with. After that, I will start looking into a friend for him.


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

I have one, Tempy, that just doesn't like to be picked up. He'll occasionally jump up on my lap and let me pet him, and I can pet him all I want while he's in his cage, but when I try to pick him up he struggles with all his might and occasionally lets out a little squeak of protest. If you want a cuddly lap rat you might want to consider getting Petey a friend. It will probably loosen him up a bit and if you get a friendly one then he can be your little lap rat. That's what we did and ended up with Buddy, who is the guy in my picture.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yup, Like humans, rats have light bulb moments when they suddenly get it and change their minds. This is very common but still no less wonderful, in immersion. Oddly, it usually follows that point of self doubt when you think things may never work out... but then there's the breakthrough.

Immersion is an odd dance of sorts, but then so is human dating if you think about it. I first got the idea from a pack of wild rats that engaged my daughter in front of the Turtle Back Zoo in West Orange NJ. We were there late and left at closing when it was getting dark, my daughter most likely smelled of our pet rat, and in the shrubs, right in front of the zoo a whole pack of small wild rats engaged my then 9 year old daughter in a chase game. We had had a part wild rat, and they were clearly not being aggressive, just playful. She of course wanted another pet rat and thought it would be a good idea just to snatch one and bring it home. Thinking wild rats would never let themselves get caught I thought it was pretty safe and humerus until the wild rats actually started skipping over her feet. I'm thinking if she actually grabbed one things would have gone badly fast... .but the idea of communication through constant engagement was born in my mind and Fuzzy Rat, who was the most brilliant rat I've ever known, helped me work out the details of the communication aspects.

In any case... for anyone that wonders where immersion comes from... it's most likely the only method of socialization that was ever taught to humans by rats... 

History lesson aside... I'm thrilled to see this tread reach this place... another human and rat bond being forged and another wonderful rat finding a good home with a caring human. It just never gets better than that for me... Congrats to you and Petey for a fine job well done! I wish you both the greatest happiness in your life together.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

Yesterday morning, Petey chilled out at the back of my neck. The feeling that gave me is indescribable. Reminded me of why I love rats and wanted them again.

I offered him the frosting and cake between the tines of my fork last night. He ate about 2 rice grains worth and that was all he wanted. I was a bit surprised.

When Petey came, I was totally unprepared. I didn't have rat food, my son didn't have rat food. The only rat food available in town was Kaytee brand, so I mail ordered some. Til the new food got here, I gave him dog kibble and bird food in bird style cups. He didn't take any of the food out of the cups, except 2 or 3 pieces that he was eating. Then I got lab blocks. I filled one of the dishes with lab blocks removed the bird and dog foods and by the time I returned to the cage, he had all the lab blocks out of the cup. I picked all food up and put it into a small shallow sauce dish. He only takes 2 or 3 blocks out and leaves the rest in the dish. Don't know if this will last, but I found it interesting.

He's a bossy little boy. For some reason he likes to run under my legs while I'm sitting the chair. He head butts my knee til I raise my leg for him to go under. Once he head butted somewhat above my knee and I said, "Sorry, my leg doesn't bend there" and he went back to my knee. Bossy, but smart.

Every time Petey and I are together from the first session til this morning once or twice he mouths one of my fingertips. Each time I tap his nose and say "no". Every session he does it again. Last night he mouthed my fingertip as usual, and as usual I tapped his nose and said "no". He gave the most disappointed look. I feel like the mouthing means something important to him. Something that I just am not getting. I wish I could figure it out. I don't want to punish him for trying to communicate with me, but I just don't know what he's trying to say.


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## AdequateRat (Mar 12, 2015)

Well, I mean. He's just getting used to you, right?
Rats nibble/lick you to differentiate between food.

I say, as long as he just nibbles, then that's absolutely wonderful.
As long as there isn't any blood or if he's not biting down SO hard, then I don't feel as if scolding should be necesarry.


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