# Hand wrestling turned bad



## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

So I always like to hand wrestle with my rats, and every time before yesterday, my one boy is always very gentle. I let him win sometimes and when I do, he pounces on my hand and then gently nibbles/licks my hand but yesterday I initiated play with him and he seemed into it and then suddenly he started to really go after my hand. It was honestly a little terrifying. The day before he had a bad encounter with my other rat that I have been trying to bond with him (it was because he got into my other room and the other rat was being defensive because Ryuk was by his cage) and he ended up biting me and drawing some blood on my wrist. I did notice that he really only started to go after my hand during the play fighting when he found the spot he had bitten before. It was like he was trying to go after my wound. It got to the point where he wouldn't let go of my hand and i had to yell to startle him into letting me go and even afterward he tried chasing me. Even when I stood up, he followed my feet and so I clapped my hands and he ran off. He gave me a very small nick from this whole experience so all in all not that bad. It probably just hurt worse then it would normally because he was going after a place already trying to heal. After an hour of being in his cage, I went to pet him and he was back to normal. I have no idea what happened in all honesty. Any ideas?


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

Bit of an update. He is still doing this strange new behavior and i found out if i just take the pain and leave my hand down there, he eventually stops and then gives me kisses and then walks away happily because he "won the battle" I guess? My question is now do I just let him be alpha to get rid of the tension or should I try to get my position back because as it is now, every time i pet him he sees it as a challenge and his fur even puffs up, and I have no idea why he is being so defensive. Could it be because he had that small tiff with my other rat and I was the one that moved him away so he thought i was challenging him or something? I'm just so incredibly confused and honestly a little scared of him.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

He sounds like he is pretty hormonal tbh... You need to somehow discourage that behavior . As a "last resort" you can neuter him - honestly it sounds like he's being an overly aggressive play fighter and is hormonal.... 
Not sure exactly how to fix this besides the usual- scolding and such and being consistent with discouraging him.

Best of luck! I hope someone else chimes in with some better/more detailed suggestions  


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

Gannyaan said:


> He sounds like he is pretty hormonal tbh... You need to somehow discourage that behavior . As a "last resort" you can neuter him - honestly it sounds like he's being an overly aggressive play fighter and is hormonal....
> Not sure exactly how to fix this besides the usual- scolding and such and being consistent with discouraging him.
> 
> Best of luck! I hope someone else chimes in with some better/more detailed suggestions
> ...


I would have assumed hormones too had it not been such a drastic change in behavior so suddenly, but I suppose hormones can be sudden too sometimes. When I scold him, he generally just distrusts me more. He has a lot of trust issues I think. I stepped on his tail months ago and ever since then he has been standoffish with me and I still have not been able to gain his trust back.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all... and I'm the guy who starts out saying rats are intelligent and competent... there's no way a rat can be the alpha of a human household! It doesn't work, it can't work and it *always* ends badly when people try.

You need to go to work or school and you try and put your alpha rat in the cage, he disagrees and bites you to make his point. He wants your snickers bar, you disagree and you get bit for failure to comply with his rules... I can't imagine that any human can live a life submissive to even a very very smart rat.

Now sometimes rats will lick your wound like a dog will, but I take it that's not what's happening.

I always love to playfight with our rat pups, but I actually never let them win... I always suspected that this could go badly, and apparently it has for you.

When he gets aggressive you have to put your rat in his place, don't punish him or try to harm him, but be forceful if necessary. Rats understand swift and overwhelming force, even if it isn't lethal or harmful. 

As your rat gets more confident he will get pushier and more aggressive when he doesn't get his way, he will also start challenging and attacking your other rats. If you can't "gently" correct him, you will wind up in extreme immersion or at a vet's office for a neuter. 

I wrote the guide to immersion... and I've likely coached more people through extreme immersion than anyone else. And yes it will fix most screwed up aggressive rats, but it really isn't something to look forward to, most of the people who do it report crying somewhere along the way and you can get bitten and it's always ugly at the outset. 

Hormones and behavior work in tandem... as a rat gets more confident his hormone level goes up and he becomes more aggressive, as he becomes more aggressive his hormones rise even more as his hormones rise he becomes more dominant. Basically it's a biological - psychological feedback loop. But the reverse is also true, when an alpha rat gets dethroned his hormone levels decrease back to normal. When a rat lives in a pack lead by a strong and present human alpha his hormones and aggression level stay in check and he is happy and social. The problem is that the worse things have gotten, the more force is required to reverse the process... Neutering sometimes also helps to break the cycle, before extreme immersion that was the more common approach.

So make sure your rat knows biting is off limits and don't back down now. Be the alpha (strong parental figure) and don't let things get too far out of control. Yes, we can still fix a screwed up alpha aggressive rat all strung out on hormones, but it's better off avoided before you get to that point.

And finally, this isn't a trust issue, this is an aggression issue! Fearful rats don't challenge you, they run away and if they bite it's pretty much only when they are cornered and in self defense.

Best luck.


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

I have read your whole immersion guide, and I haven't had the best luck it would seem since I obviously missed some points. He does have a tendency to lick my wounds, it's just suddenly he started acting like this. He was fine the day before, and then suddenly, right after confronting my rat boy and biting me, he thinks he is a big shot. I am starting to realize he has an aggression issue. I just feel like he thinks I am a bully because of the tail thing among other bad things that have happened while in my presence. It is like he associates every negative thing with me and then gets angry at me about it even though it wasn't directly my fault? Kind of like re-directional aggression, as though he needs someone to blame and I just happen to be in the perimeter of his scowling. That is why I don't think he trusts me, but I like to believe a non-trusting rat can also be aggressive. I have had rabbits like that, so its not much of a stretch of the imagination for me. However I do see your point, so thank you for your advice. I was concerned because I didn't want him to get angry at me and trust me less because I get my alpha role back but in the grand scheme of things he probably will be much happier.


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

so ryuk came up to me a while ago and challenged me and I won playfigthing about 7 times with various bites along the way (I now have a glove made of bandages) and just now he came up to me, rolled onto his back and let me pet him while giving kisses to my hand. I am so elated. I doubt the entire battle is over but it's really nice to be able to pet him without him freaking out lol thanks again for the great advice.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just to add. I've seen males get worked up and frustrated in long drawn out intros. It builds tension and he can't take it out on the rat soooo


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

nanashi7 said:


> Just to add. I've seen males get worked up and frustrated in long drawn out intros. It builds tension and he can't take it out on the rat soooo
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's a good point. He has only met sidoh three times though. The last time was accidental because he went into sidoh's room and I didn't notice so they had a stand off between the cage bars, which was when I got bit by trying to settle the situation down.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My girls have had lots of injuries... Generally, they've learned to avoid toddlers, keep their tails out from under chairs with wheels and stay off the stove, but they've never held a grudge against their humans. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be very unusual. One of my rats hated my parrot, so rats can learn to hate... But from my experience, rats would learn to fear you before they learn to hate you. 

I would have recommended oven mitts before bandages as gloves... but it sounds like the net effect is the same. You won the fight and you get to reward your rat for accepting you as his alpha.... That's the way rats do it.

If you got him in time, before the hormones built up you should be in the home stretch, if he's already hormonal, it might take a couple of weeks for him to be entirely normal again. Watch for and correct any aggressive behavior he might have towards his roommates during the next few weeks in case he decided direct his aggression elsewhere.

I also don't do long intros, but until he has regained his better senses, introductions might be a bad idea.

It sounds like you are on the right path now, good job.


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

Most of my rats have never held grudges like Ryuk does, so I think he is just a little unusual. Charming but unusual. I could of course be misinterpreting it. 

I tried using a leather glove when I first started, but I quickly realized he was horribly afraid of the glove and didn't really see it as me, so I ditched it and just dealt with it. All that matters is it worked lol

He was being really aggressive with his room mate during the time he was aggressive with me, but now he has calmed down with both of us, thank god! Considering his age, and the fact that the other rat absolutely hates other rats, or at least my two, I think I'm going to hold off on bonding them, and perhaps just ditch the idea entirely and get a more submissive rat for Sidoh to bond with. I would rather they not be stressed if I can help it and considering Ryuk already has a partner, I don't think he would mind not having Sidoh apart of his squad. Three rats might be a squeeze anyway in the tube he likes to sleep in lol. The two of them barely fit as is.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You definitely want to finish getting Ryuk on the right page before doing any intros. But bloodshed and carnage aside and hopefully behind you, it sounds like you are on the right track.

Eventually when it comes to setting up separate cages.... Interestingly this can create two rat colonies in the same house, albeit small ones. This can lead to aggression between colonies. In other words when a rat from cage 1 meets a rat from cage 2 it very well might fight. Both colonies can see the other rats as invaders. Perhaps daily supervised play sessions involving all of the rats together might help.... if the rats see and interact with each other and all of the rats respect you as their alpha (parent-leader) this can be avoided even if they sleep in different cages.

But all rats are individuals and you make the right calls for your special situation.


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## euneirophrenia (Mar 6, 2014)

That is a good point. I hadn't thought of the tension I might bring having two cages. However, I think because one rat pack will be on the top floor and the other be on the bottom, or at least my two separate rooms, I shouldn't have too many issues. Maybe small supervised play sessions would be best though, if only I could get Sidoh to not be so aggressive every time they meet. I think when Ryuk calms down a bit more, I may try again just because while having two cages is alright, it is not ideal.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Introductions always go through an awkward everybody is going to kill everybody phase... but being the only alpha parent in the group gives you the advantage of managing things better... it's easier to cut in between when you know you aren't going to get bitten... And rats tend to get that they are all part of your family.


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