# Potential miracle babies again?



## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

Hello chaps, I feel that I may be in trouble again.
Where to start.

A while ago, one of my two girls had an accidental litter that I simply cannot figure out. I posted on here about it thinking that I was being paranoid and maybe she was just kinda chubby. She never got to the swallowed-a-tennis-ball size before 7 babies popped out 4 boys and 3 girls. I kept all the girls in with their mum and auntie, and got my favourite squishy lazy baby boy neutered. The vet advised me to keep him separate for 4 weeks before introducing him back to his family. He was in solitary confinement for 5 and a half weeks, and now he's happily living with his sisters, auntie, and mum. 

My issue now is, that 2 of his sisters have suddenly started looking significantly rounder than before, both have very firm tummies and fairly obvious teats. I would be quite sure that they are preggers, as they are behaving and looking and feeling just like their mum did when she was pregnant EXCEPT...how the HECK could that have possibly happened. My neutered boy is the only male and it's so confusing!
Could the vets have just massively failed the neuter? I've read a few studies about how neutered male rats are sterile 8 days after the op, but there is such a mash up of info online that I don't know what to think.

Any thoughts?

P.S. They are the only 2 out of 5 that look pregnant, but of course there is the potential that all of them are.


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## Xerneas (Aug 6, 2013)

This is really, truly bizarre...

First, I would advise you to double and triple check the sex of all of them. I'm aware that male rats have very obvious testicles starting at a young age but I would still recommend you do it to get to the bottom of this and make sure they're all really girlies. It's usually obvious and easy to tell, but who knows. Rats don't recognise incest so if by the unlikely chance you mixed a girl with a boy he'd still impregnate. If they've all been living together for so long though that just sounds unlikely that they would NOW get pregnant (unless they just hit 4-6 weeks...)

If the neuter was actually completed successfully I don't see any way for him to still be able to reproduce after 5 weeks.

The only things I can think of that might have happened here if they are pregnant are that you do have an accidental intact male or the neuter was indeed not successful.

This is so weird. I don't know what to think


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

It's crazy isn't it, these sort of things always happen to me! I have had them all vet-checked previously except one female (they were all definitely females) however the only one that wasn't checked is one of the two that look fairly late in pregnancy. The mum and auntie are about a year and a half old, and the babies are about 5-6 months old. 

I think the only thing I can do really is wait, and in the meantime, contact the vets that "neutered" him and explain the situation.
Looking on the bright side, at least I know how to handle litters, and have two small tanks available for birthing if it happens - although I'm not sure whether I should separate them from the others now? :/


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## Xerneas (Aug 6, 2013)

Yep, I just read your other threads and I am a little speechless. There's usually some kind of explanation for this stuff that makes sense but this is a little unnerving lol.

I've never heard of a vet just...failing... a neuter. I GUESS it's happened before -- they're small, and it's just difficult but really... what the heck _were_ they doing if they totally messed up the neuter? ???

I think you should separate them so they can rest and not deal with rambunctious wrestling friends or climbing around and you can monitor them more closely. If they start to get rounder it's just about guaranteed they're preg and you should start supplementing them with more protein etc. I'm sure you know the gist after your last surprise haha. Keep us updated on what the vets say. I'm really interested to know.


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## Aether (Mar 7, 2013)

How weird! Gotta follow this.


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## Grawrisher (Sep 10, 2013)

The only other possibility I can think of (brace yourself it's crazy) is you have some hunky Don Juan wild rat that sneaks in during the night  but a failed neuter is probably more likely


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## lalalauren (Jul 3, 2013)

This is crazy, I hope you find out what has happened!

I'd like to follow this story, since I see you're in Cornwall, and I have a friend in Devon who may be interested in adopting a couple of girls if it works out that way!


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## TexasRatties (Jun 2, 2013)

That is really weird could they be having like a faux pregnancy like wolves in a pack? That is really unusual hmmm..... hope you figure out this Sherlock Holmes mystery.


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

More clues have been unearthed in the mystery recently!
Well I was taking out my "neutered" boy yesterday, and caught him red-pawed. He quickly mated with the two suspected pregnant females before I could catch him. One of them was wiggling her ears away like crazy - does this mean she's in heat?
I thought a neutered male would have no interest in mating? and would pregnant females ever be receptive to a male?
Here's my theory now. Perhaps he is sterile but for some reason still feels like trying it on - maybe as a dominance thing? Maybe the girls are having phantom pregnancies? 
What do you think?


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

+ if she was in heat, surely that means that she couldn't have been pregnant but maybe is now. The problem with that is that he's been in there long enough for them to have had a litter already, and there have been no babies.
This is so confusing!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

If the girls were pregnant, he wouldn't have mated and she wouldn't have been in heat. He definitely has no testicles haha?

Can you post pics of their bellies stretched out?


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## JBird (May 23, 2013)

If she was in heat (wiggling ears and receptive to mating), she was not pregnant. So that's good! If he was neutered that long ago I really doubt he is still sterile at all, and is likely just mating for the instinctual satisfaction. Not completely sure on that, I wonder if any of the folks on here with mixed gender mischiefs can contribute.


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## cassieb (Aug 6, 2013)

Maybe they have mutated genetics that make them reproduce without a male 0.o jk it's probably not that but it could be. Never know!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

My neutered male does NOT hump anything. The girls in heat...hump everything. He does not, despite being in the cage with 9 girls.


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

I'll try to get some pictures a little later. This is so confusing! I have contacted the vets that did the neuter, and they said it is extremely unlikely that he is still fertile, but will give him a free examination


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## Xerneas (Aug 6, 2013)

I am thinking they had phantom pregnancies then. Hopefully it's not something like Pyometra?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

How old are the babies? Xerneas brings up a good point. "bloated" bellies can be several things. If the babies are bloated and young enough, Megacolon can be a concern. If they are old enough, tumors can be a concern. If neither are a concern, I would wonder if they had any other signs of illness as bloating can be fluid retention for sick rats.


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

I have not noticed any symptoms of illness, all appetites are normal and faeces + urine passing normal with no abnormal discharge, or anything like that. They are approx 5-6 months old.


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## Xerneas (Aug 6, 2013)

Could it be something like closed pyometra then, where there's no discharge? Although they are young for pyometra and the way they got it together is a little suspicious. Or a tumour inside? I don't know, at this point I'm really thinking it was a phantom pregnancy if they are acting so normal...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Some neutered males are still quite driven, it depends on there nature and past experiences, just like female rats often hump one another with no means of creating kits. Its part dominance and part shared excitement and bonding of a sorts. 

I would still get him checked over though, I was at a show once and meet 2 young boys that a very had recommended neutering to an owner. She'd had it done and the site was well healed however one of the boys distinctly still had one testicle. 

If they have come on heart them they aren't pregnant so something else will be going on. Ive not heard of girls coming onto heat again in a false pregnancy, though these can be triggered by going in with a male, even neutered. Typically they will come out of it about day 15 after mating. I'd get them along for a check up really, especially if they start acting I'll in any way. Closed pyo is nasty


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## graphite (Apr 6, 2011)

I used to work in a vets office, and I got to stand in the room to watch the vet neuter one of my past rats. He made an incision and totally removed both testicles. I am not sure if there are other ways to perform a rat neuter, but I think it would be hard not to notice removing only one testicle instead of two... just a thought lol.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

There are a few ways to neuter, some better than others. Mine weren't "cut" off but were mostly depleted and have shrunk now.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

graphite said:


> I used to work in a vets office, and I got to stand in the room to watch the vet neuter one of my past rats. He made an incision and totally removed both testicles. I am not sure if there are other ways to perform a rat neuter, but I think it would be hard not to notice removing only one testicle instead of two... just a thought lol.


You would think, but this was also a very that told the woman she had to get her rats neutered other wise they would kill each other...


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## anawelch (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know much about rats sterility but I know dogs can mate up to three months after their neutered.


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## LisaPizza (Nov 7, 2012)

Sorry for the delay on more news on this situation! Well luckily there have been no babies, and they are starting to feel and look normal again now  It has been a confusing few weeks! I think I am fairly safe to put him back in with them, but might wait for the vet appointment first just in case  Thanks for all the input - I will let you know the vets results


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## SarahEden (Mar 5, 2013)

Xerneas said:


> I've never heard of a vet just...failing... a neuter. I GUESS it's happened before -- they're small, and it's just difficult but really... what the heck _were_ they doing if they totally messed up the neuter? ???


I used to volunteer at a cat shelter where the cats all ran free, there were no cages. We always had the males neutered and spayed the females as we went along. We had over 200 cats so we couldn't afford to do all the females, just as we had money for them. Anyways, we had sent in this 6 month old male kitten to be neutered and all was well. Till we ended up with a half dozen pregnant females and couldn't figure out how. Until I saw it in the act once. The vet had only removed ONE testicle. WTF. So it is highly possible. But you'd always like to think not. Now after that happened, I always check to make sure both are gone.


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