# Frightened rat



## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

So I got 3 feeder rats about a week ago, 1 older one, and 2 young ones.

I've been slowly trust training them with treats. I give them cheerios and also doing the baby food with a spoon method (althoguh this sometimes fails cause i accidentally picked a semi chunky baby food so they can sometimes pick some of it up ) 
The younger ones seem to be doing pretty decent with that, theyre not super scared of me or anything and do sometimes slowly peek out of the cage to get treats from me. They do kind of jump a little when I pet them during it though, but seem to be learning to enjoy it.

The older one however is pretty **** scared. She was okay the first couple days I had her but she's been very jumpy lately. She'll take treats because she loves them but she'll run away right after taking it. And she'll jump a LOT if I make any sudden movements or even when I try to soothe talk her sometimes. I'm not super surprised that she's jumpy because she lived alone in a tank in a feeder bin for most of her life. I don't know how old she is but she does seem to be fully grown. She got along pretty well and fast with the 2 baby rats but seems to be scared of humans (understandably.)

I was just giving all the rats a couple of treats and she just nipped my finger! She didn't break skin or anything thankfully. I didn't know how to react at first but then I remembered that I read something about letting out a bit of a squeak to let them know that you don't like that. So i did that and she just kind of stared at me like O_O so I dunno if she got the message haha.

I'm not sure if she nipped me because I haven't really handled them other than giving them treats. So maybe she thought my finger was a treat? 

What do you guys think? I'm new to rats and I wanna do good by them  I already have a SCN on the way because I wanted to give them more space. However I am a bit nervous about transferring them to the SCN if I can't even handle them yet.

I've read up on forced socialization and I know it's controversial, but does anyone have any experience on the topic? She's pretty scared and I know it's only been a week but she is an older rat and I don't have any experience with this.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

The nip was most likely an accidental nip from her trying to take the treat a bit too aggressively. She probably does just need to learn the difference between fingers and food, it's something most baby rats learn early on but she hasn't exactly had exposure to that until now. She probably didn't even realize she'd nipped you.

Forced socialization, I wouldn't consider it controversial myself, and I know it sounds harsh. The thing is, with some rats I've had, they were born skittish and remained that way despite all of the trust training I did. In fact, the girl I'm holding right now on my lap is fast asleep, snoozin'... whereas months ago she wouldn't even come up to me, would scream when I picked her up, and was super reluctant to take anything from me. She was honestly timid the day we got her, but in her case we needed to move faster with her and I think she would have ended up better. Now I just handle all of my new rats as much as possible from the minute I get them. I don't think it's possible to spend too much time with new rats, and they are super resilient to short term stress. I've never had a rat act more scared of me even after a handling session went wrong (like my partner unknowingly turning on the vaccuum). I only ever see improvement. I give treats while I have them out with me, too. It really helps. I just think that time spent in the cage is wasted time with new rats, that you should really spend all the time you can with them. Trust me, you'd be amazed how much progress happens after just a couple hours in your sweater. I don't honestly consider it forced socialization though, to me it's just socialization.


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## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> The nip was most likely an accidental nip from her trying to take the treat a bit too aggressively. She probably does just need to learn the difference between fingers and food, it's something most baby rats learn early on but she hasn't exactly had exposure to that until now. She probably didn't even realize she'd nipped you.
> 
> Forced socialization, I wouldn't consider it controversial myself, and I know it sounds harsh. The thing is, with some rats I've had, they were born skittish and remained that way despite all of the trust training I did. In fact, the girl I'm holding right now on my lap is fast asleep, snoozin'... whereas months ago she wouldn't even come up to me, would scream when I picked her up, and was super reluctant to take anything from me. She was honestly timid the day we got her, but in her case we needed to move faster with her and I think she would have ended up better. Now I just handle all of my new rats as much as possible from the minute I get them. I don't think it's possible to spend too much time with new rats, and they are super resilient to short term stress. I've never had a rat act more scared of me even after a handling session went wrong (like my partner unknowingly turning on the vaccuum). I only ever see improvement. I give treats while I have them out with me, too. It really helps. I just think that time spent in the cage is wasted time with new rats, that you should really spend all the time you can with them. Trust me, you'd be amazed how much progress happens after just a couple hours in your sweater. I don't honestly consider it forced socialization though, to me it's just socialization.


Thanks for the advice! That helps a lot. I may try this method then. The only thing is I'm a little bit weary on taking her out of her cage already. She's very frightened and I feel like if I try to pick her up she'll be almost impossible to handle. She's pretty big and she jumps really fast so I'm kinda worried that she'll also try to jump out from my grip when shes out of the cage. Or do you think she wouldn't try that?


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

wtfelvemage said:


> Thanks for the advice! That helps a lot. I may try this method then. The only thing is I'm a little bit weary on taking her out of her cage already. She's very frightened and I feel like if I try to pick her up she'll be almost impossible to handle. She's pretty big and she jumps really fast so I'm kinda worried that she'll also try to jump out from my grip when shes out of the cage. Or do you think she wouldn't try that?


If you aren't sure whether or not she is a jumper, I'd choose somewhere very secure to take her first. If your bathroom is free of any nooks and crannies she could escape to, I'd go there first. When you pick her up, which she should get used to, keep a loose hand and make sure it's a non-event, don't hesitate with your hand and don't try and grab her too quickly either. If she evades your hand, continue to calmly attempt to pick her up. If she is allowed to get away and you leave her alone afterward for fear of scaring her, she'll just learn that running from the hand works. 

So eventually you should be able to pick her up calmly, neither too quick nor too slow. From here, again, don't squeeze your fingers or try to restrain her much, it encourages them to wriggle away. Rats don't tend to enjoy being in your hand for too long, so don't waste too much time on the way to your safe area. Assuming that your bathroom is the safe area, you can either sit on the toilet seat or in the bathtub. Usually people recommend the tub, but for whatever reason I never had much success bonding with them in the tub and really, the point here is to verify your concern of whether or not she'll jump off of you when you're sitting at the computer/tv/couch/table. 

Now just sit for awhile. Walk around the bathroom with her on your shoulder for a bit, see how she reacts. She'll probably run around looking for a way off, so you might want to wear another layer of clothes for the inevitable scratching that comes with nervous rat feet. If she isn't jumping, then take a seat on the toilet (again, assuming the bathroom is your safe zone) and what she does. If she leaps off of you, then the room should be secure enough to collect her again (calmly of course), and well, you can come back here for some advice on where to move forward with that discovery. 

I'd also recommend either a bonding pouch or ratoob for timid unsocialized rats. It's not necessary, I've made do without them, but they're very useful tools to have. There are some very pretty ratoobs on etsy, they are essentially scarves you wear around your neck that the rat goes into. It keeps them close but feeling safe and you can take them around the house that way. Bonding pouches work the same way but they're pouches rather than scarves.


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## Shadow <3 (Jan 25, 2017)

I'd agree that the nip you received was probably just a test bite. Young rats often explore with their teeth, and while she's not a baby, she's never really interacted with people before. I'd expect some nibbling and possible nips as the rats learn what your hand is and how delicate our skin is compared to theirs. As these are harmless, an "eep" or "squeak" should get them to stop soon enough. 

If your not sure on how to pick her up, you can always lure her into a box or carrier with some wet food. Just put some smelly wet food onto a spoon or lid, and put it in your chosen carrier/box. When she starts to eat it, quickly block the entrance with your hand and pick up the box. Continue to keep the opening closed until you reach your rat-safe area. I only state this because I know how hard it can be to catch slippery skittish rats, and if your nervous about picking them up, your rats are bound to pick up on it.


Another note I want to make is that if you don't want to make/buy a bonding pouch, you can put on a hoody, tuck in the bottom, and place your rat(s) into the hoody. This works just like a bonding pouch in that your rat(s) have a nice dark and warm space to feel safe in. You can also put your hands into the hoody and stroke your rats, or even give them treats. If you do give treats (and I recommend doing so!), you'll probably want to stick to liquid treats at first. I recommend a meat baby food, as so far non of my rats have been able to resist it. After you've hoody/bonding pouch trained your rat(s), it will be much easier to free-range with them, as they'll view your clothing (and by extension, you) as a safe spot.


When you do feel confident about handling your rats, try picking them up and putting them down a lot at first. This way, they learn that being picked up doesn't always mean that they'll be held, and if you give them a treat as well when you pick them up, they'll quickly learn to enjoy it (and as soon as free-range is paired with being picked up, you'll never be able to open the cage without them jumping onto you ).




As for moving them to the SCN, I'd wait until they're more tame. I know that you want to give your ratties the best cage, but it's often much easier to tame rats if they're in a smaller and more boring cage. In fact, I house all my new rats in a smallish cage with only one house and one hammock. This way, they're more inclined to interact with me (if only out of boredom), and they're usually pretty tame within a few days. At that point, transferring them to a larger cage (I also have a SCN) is easy.


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## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> If you aren't sure whether or not she is a jumper, I'd choose somewhere very secure to take her first. If your bathroom is free of any nooks and crannies she could escape to, I'd go there first. When you pick her up, which she should get used to, keep a loose hand and make sure it's a non-event, don't hesitate with your hand and don't try and grab her too quickly either. If she evades your hand, continue to calmly attempt to pick her up. If she is allowed to get away and you leave her alone afterward for fear of scaring her, she'll just learn that running from the hand works.
> 
> So eventually you should be able to pick her up calmly, neither too quick nor too slow. From here, again, don't squeeze your fingers or try to restrain her much, it encourages them to wriggle away. Rats don't tend to enjoy being in your hand for too long, so don't waste too much time on the way to your safe area. Assuming that your bathroom is the safe area, you can either sit on the toilet seat or in the bathtub. Usually people recommend the tub, but for whatever reason I never had much success bonding with them in the tub and really, the point here is to verify your concern of whether or not she'll jump off of you when you're sitting at the computer/tv/couch/table.
> 
> ...


I will try this, thank you!  I'm a little nervous because I'm used to hamsters and rats are a whole nother story when it comes to bonding. Also because I've never really dealt with such skittishness before.


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## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

Shadow <3 said:


> I'd agree that the nip you received was probably just a test bite. Young rats often explore with their teeth, and while she's not a baby, she's never really interacted with people before. I'd expect some nibbling and possible nips as the rats learn what your hand is and how delicate our skin is compared to theirs. As these are harmless, an "eep" or "squeak" should get them to stop soon enough.
> 
> If your not sure on how to pick her up, you can always lure her into a box or carrier with some wet food. Just put some smelly wet food onto a spoon or lid, and put it in your chosen carrier/box. When she starts to eat it, quickly block the entrance with your hand and pick up the box. Continue to keep the opening closed until you reach your rat-safe area. I only state this because I know how hard it can be to catch slippery skittish rats, and if your nervous about picking them up, your rats are bound to pick up on it.
> 
> ...


Oh thanks for the advice! That's good to know. I'll try the hoodie thing. Would it help if I wore it backwards and kept her in the hood near my chest? or would she try to scratch up my face to escape? Lol.
I'll definitely keep them in the rat manor until they're more tame and comfortable with me, then I'll move them over to the SCN.


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## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

So i've decided last night to give her a couple more days with some food/treat training before I resort to taking her out of the cage.
So today I went forward with some food training and I really haven't seen a whole lot of improvement from her.
About a week of treats and spoon baby food and she's still kind of in the same state. 
She's super jumpy and I notice that trying to get her to stay to eat the baby food is quite hard. Since that's the only time she really gets close to me at all, any SLIGHT sudden movement will terrify her. I basically have to sit frozen otherwise she'll zap across her cage. Giving her cheerios is not as much of a problem because she'll just grab it and scamper away to eat it.

Again, because of this I'm nervous about bringing her out to try to socialize her, I just KNOW she's gonna freak out if I take her out and quite honestly I'm kinda scared of getting scratched up.


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

That was how my rat (the one I mentioned) used to be, and in her case after 5 months of her acting that way despite all that we tried with treats and such, it was only after we took her out of the cage ourselves and handled her that she showed any change in behavior. We too were absolutely terrified what would happen, when she was a baby the first thing that she did after we got home was she escaped into a tiny hole we hadn't noticed under the sink. After 3 days we got her out. So, we weren't exactly excited for what she'd do when we took her out even months down the line. Sure she screamed when we picked her up and the first few times she pooped stinky fear poops on our lap but every time she made leaps of progress. Now she comes up to me and climbs in my sleeve and falls asleep with me when I sit at my desk with her, and she even looks disappointed when I put her back in the cage. She was a fearful personality on day 1 as a baby and now she is generally calm around us, though she still has a more timid personality than the others in the cage, and that's kind of how she is. It seems that some rats just won't ever understand that you won't eat them until you show them that you won't, they're little guys who have lots of predators and making a risk like climbing into the talons of a giant human isn't always worth the treats. That was the case with my girl, at least.


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## wtfelvemage (Jun 7, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> That was how my rat (the one I mentioned) used to be, and in her case after 5 months of her acting that way despite all that we tried with treats and such, it was only after we took her out of the cage ourselves and handled her that she showed any change in behavior. We too were absolutely terrified what would happen, when she was a baby the first thing that she did after we got home was she escaped into a tiny hole we hadn't noticed under the sink. After 3 days we got her out. So, we weren't exactly excited for what she'd do when we took her out even months down the line. Sure she screamed when we picked her up and the first few times she pooped stinky fear poops on our lap but every time she made leaps of progress. Now she comes up to me and climbs in my sleeve and falls asleep with me when I sit at my desk with her, and she even looks disappointed when I put her back in the cage. She was a fearful personality on day 1 as a baby and now she is generally calm around us, though she still has a more timid personality than the others in the cage, and that's kind of how she is. It seems that some rats just won't ever understand that you won't eat them until you show them that you won't, they're little guys who have lots of predators and making a risk like climbing into the talons of a giant human isn't always worth the treats. That was the case with my girl, at least.


Hmm that's very interesting and I never thought of it that way. The rat cage is in my bedroom and sometimes I catch her just looking at me curiously through the bars. 
How many sessions would you say it took for your rat to start tolerating humans? I'm planning on starting to socialize her in my parent's tub this week, cause their tub is pretty big so I think I can kind of deck it out to make her comfortable while I sit in it with some treats and try to let her come to me. 

Also would you recommend that I socialize all 3 rats at the same time? Or should I do them separately?


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## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

wtfelvemage said:


> Hmm that's very interesting and I never thought of it that way. The rat cage is in my bedroom and sometimes I catch her just looking at me curiously through the bars.
> How many sessions would you say it took for your rat to start tolerating humans? I'm planning on starting to socialize her in my parent's tub this week, cause their tub is pretty big so I think I can kind of deck it out to make her comfortable while I sit in it with some treats and try to let her come to me.
> 
> Also would you recommend that I socialize all 3 rats at the same time? Or should I do them separately?


When they're still nervous I prefer socializing them together, it seems to make them more confident and less likely to sit frozen in one spot the whole time. It's hard to say exactly how long it took for our rat to really tolerate us, my best guess would be maybe a couple weeks? She stopped screaming and darting after 1 week and after maybe 3 weeks was when she'd willingly climb on me. These were cumulative "weeks", there were some days that I wasn't around- I used to live separately from my partner and the rat didn't live with me at the time. She is still getting subtly improving all the time. Yours might take longer though, every rat is different. Lots of treats will always make things go faster- I consider them necessary.

Be sure that the area around the tub is still secure, after awhile some rats will try to use you as a staircase to hop out! Also it'll obviously be awhile before she approaches you at first so don't forget to take something to do while you're sitting in there, ideally you'll be chilling in the tub for quite awhile.


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