# Will I like rats?



## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

So, I've been reading in this forum like crazy and all over the internet. 

I've noticed something, some people LOVE rats, can't get enough of them, and some people are very disappointed in their rats. I really don't want to be in that second group. I'm hoping, if I share enough detail, someone with a similar background will have an idea. 

I used to love rabbits. I raised show rabbits, competed in rabbit showmanship and fostered rescue rabbits from the local humane society. I quit breeding rabbits and my breeders eventually died of old age/euthanasia until they were all gone in my late teens/ early twenties. I later adopted two huge Californian New Zealand mixes from a shelter. They only lived about 4 years, but, that's typical with the giant breed rabbits. The smaller ones live longer. I still thought they were great pets. The only reason I don't have a rabbit now is that the only place I could really rabbit proof would be my sunroom. I no longer feel that rabbits are good caged pets. The only way I would get one again is if it could have an entire room to free roam. The problem with the sunroom is my redfoot tortoise has free roam of that along with my two 10 year old cats. The cats and rabbits free-roamed together and I never had an issue. They were even good friends. One rabbit would run up and steal the cat's food and the cats would just let her do it. The rabbit would chase them and then turn around so they could chase her. The problem is the tortoise. He pesters the living daylights out of the cats, but, they have shelves and ledges to go up on to get away from him. Since a rabbit can't get up on a ledge or back down safely, the tortoise would just follow it constantly nipping in slow motion. I doubt he would ever hurt something, he's just too slow, but the intent is there. He loves nipping toes. So, no rabbit. For similar reasons, no guinea pigs. I still think they do well in large cages, but, the only place I could put something with so large a foot print would again be the sunroom only now the problem for the guinea pigs is the cats, not the tortoise. 

Over the years I've had hedgehogs and ferrets, tarantulas and fish, a cornsnake, parakeets, a lovebird, a ringnecked dove and plenty of gerbils and rabbits and even a couple hamsters. Rats and lizards are kind of my final frontier.. lol 

My least favorite pet was the hamsters. Of course, mine were always from the shelter I had volunteered at and were all biters. So, they slept all day and would draw blood whenever you cleaned the cage. Not pleasant. Still, kept them till they died of old age anyways. At least they were cute. 

Second least favorite was probably the hedgehogs. But, again, they were not socialized and surrendered for biting. I put hours and hours into trying, but, they would curl up into hissing balls when I was within ten feet of them. Fortunately, they were already older when I got them, but that may have been why I never made any progress socializing them. 

Third least favorite was the cornsnake. I love green tree pythons but they are for experienced snake owners. So, I picked up this non-feeding baby cornsnake off of craigslist that someone had bought but couldn't get it to eat. This is also a common green tree python problem, so, I figured it would be a good experience. Honestly, it was a good learning experience and I feel that I was probably very successful considering my lack of experience. A responsible corn snake breeder would have culled a nonfeeder not sold it to a family with kids. Managed to keep it going for about three years, it even grew for a time there and seemed to be getting it together. But, it just died suddenly despite a recent outward improvement in health. There was likely something quite wrong with it, but, veterinary science has a ways to go with snakes. 

Fourth least favorite was the parakeets. These were also from the shelter I volunteered at. They had been kept in tiny, tiny cages and self-mutilated. There is pretty much nothing more depressing than watching your bird mutilate itself. Large cages and tons of toys and food variety helped two of them, but the third one basically killed itself. It was awful, but, it solidified a position for me that if you can't give a bird an enclosure with room to actually fly then you shouldn't have a bird. 

Everything else I loved pretty much equally in their own way. Tarantulas aren't cuddly, but, I loved watching their natural behaviors. Same with the fish. Tarantulas are basically just bitey land fish.. lol The ferrets were awesome, but, they die sad. I have a feeling that rats die sad too. My husband hates the smell of them, or I would have ferrets. I'll always have a dog. Right now I have two 14 year old dogs. When they're both gone we'll get a puppy. But, they are both healthy as can be, so I think we have another few years. 

I've never picked a cat, but, I feed three semi-ferals (all neutered) and have two old foster failures that live in the sunroom. (Rescue went out of business overnight and we were left with the cats for years while they fought out who got what cat and then finally just pretended most of us weren't fostering for them, messy business for sure) 

I am not overly needy. I don't need affection from my pets. I enjoy interaction with them at their level. I loved Clawsy the gerbil. He was an awesome little guy who ran around on my computer desk, helped me type and stole noodles out of my soup. He didn't like being held, but, never bit. Gerbils should also be kept in groups, but, Clawsy's group had 'declanned' at the pet store. I don't know how it is for rats, but, gerbil declanning is no joke. The declanning left three dead, 2 badly wounded and 3 traumatized but only scuffed up survivors. It happened overnight while the store was closed in a group of gerbils all the same sex and age. Gerbils do best in clans made up of actual family members, but, the declanning had left them scared of each other. So, reluctantly, I bought ONE gerbil. 

Anyhow, sorry to write a book. 

So, will I like rats? I hadn't really considered rats until I handled some in a pet store last week. We had gone in to buy a few gerbils. Clawsy had lived in a 20 gallon long with a topper which is appropriate for 5-6 gerbils not even counting the topper. But, none of the gerbils at the store were just right. Clawsy never really smelled. I used tons of carefresh so he could burrow. Basically filled the aquarium within a couple inches of the top. I cleaned the whole cage about once a month and it still didn't smell at all like ammonia. He always pooped in his little dust bath house, so I would just clean that every couple days. He was REALLY easy. 

I don't mind investing more time than what I put into Clawsy, but, there are limits, unfortunately. I have a full time job, a 5 year old daughter and a few other pets. 

My cage setup will be a double critter nation. I already ordered it because even if I don't get rats, that cage is great for all kinds of critters. It will get used at some point even if you all point out that rats aren't for me. My plan would be to have the spouse make a couple 4" trays, one for each layer, that I would either use carefresh or aspen in. I would probably use a few hammocks as washing them is easy enough. Anything I add to the cage will either be nonporous, washable fabric or disposable. 

The only reason for me to choose rats over gerbils would be that rats have a reputation for being easier to hold, carry around and otherwise enjoy. Gerbils are really only fun on flat raised surface where they can get away and approach as they wish. They are too skittish to put on the floor and interact with. I've spent hours trying to find clawsy when he played escape artist. 

So, rat smell. Anytime I go into a pet store, I'm hit with rodent smell. Now, I'm sure most of that is because there are just so many in a small space. It's probably quite a bit different to have 5 rats in a larger enclosure. How do rats compare to ferrets? Ferrets have a smell that is just always with them no matter how clean you keep the enclosure. I never minded the smell. It's just their signature scent. It's like goats, they just have a smell that goes with them and it would be completely unnatural to have a goat that didn't have the smell. Neither one smells because they are dirty, the smell because it's just the way they are. Back to rats, that rodent smell in the pet store, is that only present with dirty animals or is that just the natural rat aroma? I wouldn't care, but, spouse is finicky. I'm tired of fighting with spouse about things like that. He never minded the gerbil. Gerbils can stink too if their cage is dirty. But, in a clean cage they really don't have a detectable odor. Are rats the same way?


Basically, I want to be able to do what I did with clawsy, let him out, feed him treats. But I also want to be able to hold the rats a bit without getting bitten. I'd like to play with them on the couch while we watch a movie and let them steal popcorn. I want to clean the trays in the cage once a week, wipe down the bars with baby wipes every couple days and wash the hammocks once a week and have a pet that doesn't smell strongly. 

After all that, will I like rats?


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

I think you will love them. But don't expect them to be cuddly. A Lot of people say that males are cuddly. In my experience they aren't just really lazy when they get older. Rats can be trained to do tricks and once the are bonded to you they can go outside in your hood while you take a walk. I don't know how they would do on a desk because they seem to have a hatred for wires and love slashing them. The only draw back of rats is that rats tend to die sad. Most die of tumors or a respiratory illness. A lot don't though so don't let that stop you from getting rats. The one thing you need to check before you get rats is that you have an exotics vet near you. Don't wait until your rat is sick before you get a vet. Find one now and it will save you the stress. If you get two and have a big enough cage (yours can fit ten rats!) so they don't become antsy they are amazing pets. Im sure you will like them.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I think truthfully it depends on how you approach pets in general. Some people get it in their head that an animal is supposed to be like xyz and they want xyz. So they get the pet but every animal is going to have their own personality some will fit into the general mold, some will be far outside the box. Every pet is different and unique and will come with their own challenges and positives too. 

The problem is that some people are upset that their pet is not this perfect clone of what they wanted. 

The other problem that often comes up is that people do not research a pet enough or they take on a pet that has special needs. I see this ALOT with rats.
I see people go to their pet store and pick out a rat that looks cute but find out that the rat has horrid temperament issues and has never been handled before and they are like why isn't my rat cuddly and sweet? 

I can not push hard enough that I always suggest finding a good breeder and getting rats that are bred for temperament and have been handled. 
Or go to a good rescue that knows their animals and give a home to rats that had a good home and are sweet and used to being handled.
But if you do decide to go the pet store route, don't just pick the cute rat. Take your time, watch them handle them. Pick a confident rat that is ok being handled.

That will make a big difference in your pet experience! 

All animals have some smell to them. Rats are no where near the smell of ferrets. For rats as long as you stay on top of cleaning and use good bedding it is not an issue. They do not have a strong smell to them. Some people say boys smell worse as they tend to mark more but I haven't noticed that with my boys really. I would compare rats smell to that of a dog or cat. Alot of people say their rats smell like grape soda, I don't think so lol but my point is no they do not have any strong smell to them. The only smell is the poo/pee, which should not be an issue if you keep it clean.

Rats are very intelligent. They need mental stimulation. They need time outside their cage. Some people have luck with letting them play on the couch, I think every single one of my rats would be off the couch in 2 secs lol. Rat proofing can be difficult, as soon as you think you have it perfect they show you how wrong you are. They will chew things. You can buy/make playpens for them. They should ideally have outside of their cage time daily.

You will have to be mindful of that with your other pets. 

I think your cleaning system is pretty spot on. With DCN cage I'd say prob once a month or so you will need to really clean it alittle bit deeper and get in the little spaces between bars and in the corners. Pee can build up there and it can smell bad. I use aspen and it is really great at keeping odor down.

You will also need atleast 2 rats or more  

I do not think rats are much like other small animals at all. They more have the personality of a cat mixed with a dog. They can be very hands on active pets.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I love having my rats. They all have unique personalities and show love in their own way. It's also fun to work with them on training.

In my opinion males have a stronger smell but once you neuter them it all but goes away. Intact males will urine mark EVERYTHING including you and your furniture. Until my boys were neutered I always wore pants and long sleeves to handle them for that reason. I've never had my rats on the couch but they enjoy running all over my bed. Just be careful not to squish them if they burrow in the cushions. 

Rats are extremely social animals. They have to be kept in pairs or groups, but they don't have to come from the same family. My group consists of rescues and pet store rats from different places and with varying ages. I have never heard of rats declanning but I won't say it's impossible. Just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean there isn't a rare case. The closest I've seen to this is male on male agression. The solution is usually just to neuter the aggressor and then they can be together again. Sometimes though you just come accross a rat that cannot live with other rats. These usually are rescues or from unethical breeders or pet stores.

Rats are short lived. If you thought your 4 year rabbit was short, most rats only live two years with three being a blessing. They are particularly prone to upper respiratory issues including pneumonia and unspayed females are more likely than not to have mammary tumors at one point or another. Go ahead and find a vet before you get them. You will be going at some point.

One thing no one else mentioned, if you're going to use a substrate for them, don't use wood chips or anything too dusty. Aromatic oils in the wood that make it smell good to us are extremely irritating to a rat's lungs and it will make them sick for sure. Overly dusty litters will do this as well. A lot of people potty train their rats and use fleece in the bottom of the cage. This is what I do as well. You can give them a digging box if you'd like as well. There are a lot of good substrates for digging boxes. A plus of fleece is it is cheaper. If you have enough for two sets you can pull it out, wipe down the cage, and then put the new fleece in. The old then goes into the wash so it's ready for you the next time you clean. You don't have to buy all of the substrate needed to cover the entire DCN. I have not bought new fleece in a long time and if you buy it on sale it is very cheap.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

JAnimal said:


> I think you will love them. But don't expect them to be cuddly. A Lot of people say that males are cuddly. In my experience they aren't just really lazy when they get older. Rats can be trained to do tricks and once the are bonded to you they can go outside in your hood while you take a walk. I don't know how they would do on a desk because they seem to have a hatred for wires and love slashing them. The only draw back of rats is that rats tend to die sad. Most die of tumors or a respiratory illness. A lot don't though so don't let that stop you from getting rats. The one thing you need to check before you get rats is that you have an exotics vet near you. Don't wait until your rat is sick before you get a vet. Find one now and it will save you the stress. If you get two and have a big enough cage (yours can fit ten rats!) so they don't become antsy they are amazing pets. Im sure you will like them.


The vet clinic I already use has multiple vets, two of them see rats. Their hours don't work really great with my work schedule, but, the emergency vet would work for a euthanasia that can't wait or to get started with antibiotics. I will have to see how their health concerns will work out. I'm not heartless, but, I'm fairly realistic with how viable a solution really is. My dogs are all rescue dogs, sometimes they get treated, sometimes they get euthanized instead. Case in point, I had my 14 year old collie mix euthanized recently. She'd had chronic ear infections the last several years which were treated with daily antibiotics and periodical sedation with wax/antibiotic ear canal suppositories(?) not sure what they are called, but they are placed in the ear canal and last around 6 weeks. Finally, all of that quit working. The only option left was having her ear and ear canal amputated. I could understand having that done in say a 7 year old dog. But, she'd already had a rough life, she already had some issues with her hind end coordination from a hit by car years previous with her last owner. Ear canal removal has side effects, potentially nausea and balance issues which could be overcome in a younger dog. She was otherwise healthy though, just grumpy, a bit wobbly when she woke up in the morning. It was pretty much the worst feeling ever having her put down for what was 'just' an ear infection. But, it would have gone systemic and killed her horribly. She had a low grade fever when I brought her in. I could see having tumor removal done on a younger rat and antibiotics are always a go. I don't think I would go the tumor removal route in an old rat. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have decided to have my 14 year old dog's ear canal removed if she was there dog. Anything to buy a bit more time. I buy time when it's quality time, not just for quantity time.. If that makes any sense. That was the problem with ferrets. Yeah, you could have the adrenal glands removed and buy another 6 months to a year, but a good part of that time would be spent recovering from the surgery and then just getting sick again anyways a few months later. I had the surgery done on a 3 year old ferret and she got 4 more good years, but, age 7 and up I just had euthanized when their quality of life was no longer good. I don't know if that makes me heartless.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

For substrate, I was planning on either using aspen or carefresh. That's what I always used with the gerbils I've had. Will those work fine?

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a rescue near me that neuters rats. There are a couple rescues that have rats, but they all say not for homes with small children. The rats I saw at the pet store weren't actually for sale at the pet store. A lady who breeds them had brought them in for socialization. She's apparently a regular as the staff didn't seem to care that she was there handing out rats for people to hold.. lol At least these ones would probably be pretty tame right from the start. Though, now that I'm searching online I realize they come in different coats and colors. Yay, now it's all complicated. lol There's a lady an hour from me with a pair of rex coat's that are really cute and supposedly very tame too. I was thinking two from one place and two from the other place. They are probably a month different in age though. All males. I'm not committed to any of them yet, still exploring and learning. 

I think I'm going to go ahead with it. I'm definitely not going to hate them, there's a 95% chance that I'm going to think they're great. Worst case scenario, they don't live very long so keeping them healthy and happy for the couple of years they live is not a problem even if they aren't a perfect fit. 

It's just so weird for me to get a pet I haven't had before. That's probably the source of my hesitation.. lol


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Jenniferinfl said:


> Gerbils should also be kept in groups, but, Clawsy's group had 'declanned' at the pet store. I don't know how it is for rats, but, gerbil declanning is no joke. The declanning left three dead, 2 badly wounded and 3 traumatized but only scuffed up survivors. It happened overnight while the store was closed in a group of gerbils all the same sex and age. Gerbils do best in clans made up of actual family members, but, the declanning had left them scared of each other. So, reluctantly, I bought ONE gerbil.


So, I had never heard of gerbil declanning, but boy does that sound intense...

Note to Self: Don't get gerbils.



Jenniferinfl said:


> ...but, age 7 and up I just had euthanized when their quality of life was no longer good. I don't know if that makes me heartless.


And nah - no point in prolonging suffering. I wrote a whole feed on it.

Anyway - I agree with everyone else. You'll love rats, as long as you don't try to save one. By that I mean don't "rescue" one from a pet store. Don't go looking for something to save from Craigslist. Yes, those rats deserve love too, but if my first experience had been with the biting (pet store) rescues I have now instead of my cuddly breeder boys, I probably would have never gotten another rat. (I knew they were biters when they showed up at my house, btw. Actually, they were specifically sent to my house for that reason.) If you decide later that you want to try to save a pet store rat, then knock yourself out, provided you quarantine, etc.

I'll go ahead and toss it out there that by "cuddly", I mean he comes back to me to chill and hang out on my lap before using me as a lookout tower. And maybe some scritches. I have a very different definition of "cuddly" for my rats as opposed to my cat.

Smell wise, even my unaltered boys smell better than a ferret. I'll admit that I've never had a ferret, but I had the leftover ferret furniture from when I bought my DFN, and lemme tell ya, that crap left my house smelling like ferret for two weeks after I tossed it. Maybe the previous owners just never cleaned anything, but it was pretty rank. That's also how I figured out I'm allergic to ferrets. 

Rats do tend to die in a sad manner, IMO. Almost every one I've had died of a drug-resistant URI at around 2.5 years old, or they get too many tumors. However, they tend to keep up a Little Engine That Could attitude right up until about a few days to a week before they keel.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I have heard that Carefresh is pretty dusty but since I don't use a substrate I don't know a lot about different brands.

I adopted my two males intact and then had them neutered at my vet. It was a little more expensive but I felt it was worth it. If you're looking for breeders try Facebook. I've found multiple on there. As for rescues Facebook works for that too and petfinder does have a rat section if you'd like to try that. I got my first pair of rats from a store but all subsequent rats have been rescues.

The big thing is to handle the rats and get to know them before you decide. Just like you didn't get gerbils because none of them felt right, you have to do the same for rats. Handle them, pet them, get to know them. Don't just pick because of looks.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Yes carefresh was dusty when I used it and was expensive as well. I would go with aspen. One thing to keep in mind is that if you get females spaying them reduces their chances of getting a tumor.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'll try to address everything based my own experience and not repeat anything anyone else has already said

I've only recently become owned by rats. Having never had a rat before, I rescued a feeder from Petco. Because I'm a total sucker for animals, I rarely go inside pet stores because it's so hard to leave them when I leave. She was running all over the other rats in the cage and seemed desperate to get out. When she actually sat still, she would stare at as if she was pleading with me to get her out of there.

I'm not one to make impulse decisions, but if I took time to consider a rat, there was a very good chance she would be gone if I went back for her. So without even having a cage to put her in, I took her home that day. I had intended to find a home for her. If I couldn't, I was prepared to keep her and make sure she had a good life. I did find a home, but the lady who was going to take her couldn't get for at least a couple of weeks. It took less than a week for Anga, my rat, to charm me.

It took about 6 weeks to go from one rat I didn't intend to keep, to 5 rats and a Double Critter Nation. 

I don't think you can really know you will like rats until you've actually had. I got lucky. If I hadn't fallen in love with one rat or been able to find a home for her, I wouldn't have had the heart to return her to a feeder bin. 

Even though my rats came from pet stores, I would suggest getting at least 2 from a place that doesn't sell them as feeders. It's not that I think a rescued or breeded rat is better. It's that they can be returned to a familiar place where they are safe. It will be less stressful for the rat and less worry about what happens to the rat if you decide that they aren't for you. The best places would be either a breeder or a rescue. Also, getting rats that are already housed together reduces stress on the rats, as well as eliminating the need for quarantining and introductions.

The only reason I would hesitate getting another rat from a pet store is the greater risk of illness and because I would possibly/probably be supporting unethical breeders. I haven't minded socializing my rats. It didn't take much time for most of them, but I'm not working at the moment and therefor have plenty of time to spend with them. I would say that 3 of my pet store rats were easily socialized. Anga and I bonded on the way home from the store. One of those 3, one is blind, so it did take a little longer. But, considering what I've read about socializing blind rats, I think it happened quickly. The 3rd and youngest was crawling all over me and riding my shoulder by the end of the night the first day home.

Of the other 2 rats, I'm having trouble socializing only 1. I'm pretty sure she is an adult. I know she is a feeder rat with very little handling during the formative years. It appears as though she's had litters that were probably taken from her too soon. She very likely lived in poor conditions and may have even been abused. Regardless, I am making progress with her. She has come around a lot, but still has a ways to go. I think I've had her for a month now. The fifth rat is not feeder rat. She is fairly socialized, but needs more time. 

*Smell*

With the exception of the youngest, all of my rats are litter box trained. The youngest is getting the idea. The only time I really notice any odor is when the box needs cleaning. Someone, probably the youngest still pees outside the box, but it is not much. I think the lack of urine odor has to do with the substrate I use. 

I use 2 layers of fleece with unscented puppy training pads under them. I use craft fleece sandwiched between nicer, softer fleece and the puppy pad. The fleece wicks the urine down to the pads where it is absorbed. Keeping the fleece secured under the trays with Velcro keeps it from being pulled up and chewed on as well. That, combined with litter box training seems to have pretty much eliminated any odor. It also makes the trays of the cage easier to clean thoroughly each week. 

*Interaction with Rats *

As has already been said, rats are very social. They NEED company, mental stimulation and challenges. Most people recommend getting _at least_ 2 rats. In my own experience, 4 is better, (Yes, I have 5. I'll get to that later.) When there were only two rats in the cage, they just didn't seem to have enough company. I'm really glad I got two more for them because it really perked everyone up. I would especially recommend getting no less than 3 since you work full time.

I've only been bit once. I was pretty much to blame for it. My oldest, least socialized rat was out and about to get hurt. I had to grab her quickly and firmly so she couldn't get away. She got scared and maybe my grip was a little tighter than necessary. She bit me pretty hard before I could get her back to the cage. 

Even being extremely skittish and taking lot's of work to socialize, I've handled her many times since then. She has not bitten me again, even if she is scared. It's my understanding that a rat will rarely bite. When I give them treats, sometimes they will grab my finger with their mouth. It is in no way painful and they have no intention to hurt me. They grab at my finger just like you would take something someone is handing you. I assume they think my finger is a treat because rats don't have the best vision. 

Cuddling, My understanding is that males tend to be calmer and cuddlier than females. Given my limited experience, this may be true. 

All of my rats are females. Females are said to be much more active than males. Since getting a little older and getting a lot more exercise out of the cage, Anga has started to cuddle with me the last couple of weeks. Not as much as I'd like, but she is still a hyper rat with tons of energy. My second rat, the blind one is also calming down and will occasionally cuddle, but less often than Anga. My youngest rat has pretty much been a cuddler since the first night. She will even run to the door to be let out so she can be with me. She is pretty young and has lots of energy, but I feel certain that as she ages, she will become even more cuddly.

As for the abused rat, she might not ever be a cuddler or play much with me. I'm okay with that. I just want her to be happy. 
*
Out Of Cage Time*

I have one rat that lives permanently outside of the cage. There are some people who do this, but I'd venture to say that most don't. There are risks doing this. I had decided against it for a time, but with Anga, it's turned out to be no big deal. I think Anga may be particularly smart. She has learned what is and isn't okay. She knows that if she does do those things, she'll go back to the cage. She is litter box trained. She plays with the cats and dogs. 

That being said, I think for most rats, there should be a safe area for them to get out of the cage. Rats are very clever and can get to places you would never imagine they could go. And they do chew! I think they can learn about the things they are not allowed to do. But that takes time and consistent effort. 

If you get female rats, I don't know that they would stay on the couch with you, but I don't know that they won't either. They will probably stay on the couch with you for a time while they adjust to you and the new home. Rats are very curious and explorers. Once they are comfortable, it's likely that they will want to run around the room checking out the new environment outside of the cage. 

Also, your rats will need lots of things inside the cage to keep them occupied and stimulated mentally. Some people literally stuff the cage as full as they can with items for the rats. I keep lots of toys and hammocks. Take out the ramps of the Critter Nation. Rats don't really need them and they can discourage exercise. Mine hardly used the ramps anyway. Taking them out made more room for toys, puzzles and play space.

I'm not sure I addressed everything. If I didn't, someone else probably will.

One other thing, most rats don't seem to like exercise wheels. I've bought two different ones, including the Wodent Wheel. Neither of them has been a hit. If you do get a wheel, make sure it's at least 12" and that it is toe and tail safe. No wires.


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

Rats are great pets! For your first group I'd suggest getting ones that have been handled a lot. 

Sometimes you'll have a pet shop that has rats that have been handled and well looked after. I got my first rats from a local mom & pop pet store that were brought in by a family whose little girl socialized them daily. They were the sweetest girls ever they got me really into having rats, and they were very healthy too. 

This however isn't the case for most, so if you go the pet shop route I suggest you ask the store a bunch of questions (for example) How old they are, are the genders separated, are they handled and looked out for. I mean, yes they can straight out lie, but this will inform you if they're being looked after if the worker seems a bit clueless. I was at a pet shop near me to look at rats and the person managing the section had no clue about them and wouldn't handle them. Not to mention these babies looked scared out of their wits. Look at the difference between males and female genitals (sorry sounds weird) so you aren't handed a boy and a girl. I second what moonkissed says about playing with the rats in the store to pick the most outgoing ones. Also check to make sure they're healthy, eyes are clear, and sound good. It is possible that rats you get from a pet store can get or are sick so it's best to see before you get them.

The second time I got rats (the girls I have now) I went to a breeder and met the parents then decided I'd want rat babies from them (very sweet natured and out going). I waited a half year before I got my girls, but it is so worth it. When I got them they immediately warmed up to us, and love everyone. My boyfriend has never had rats before and he loves our girls. I think if we got the rats that had behavioral issues then he might not have liked them much. If you're able to find a good breeder in your area I highly recommend it.

I don't have experience adopting from a rescue, but you can for sure get baby rats from a rescue that have been socialized. Other members can chime in with their own experiences here.

As far as smell goes, I can rarely smell their cage. I'm using hemp as substrate almost completely and it has worked really well for us and our rats. 

Of course it's entirely individual if you'll like rats or not, but the main tip I'm telling you is get ones that have been socialized daily and you'll have an easier time.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

There are different risks in getting rescues than pet store rats, although many risks do overlap. You can usually get rats from foster network type rescues or shelters.

When I rescued my boys from the shelter they had close to 20 rats to choose from. I spent two whole hours getting to know them before deciding which ones to get. Taking your time and not making rash decisions is a key part in getting shelter rats. Ask about their history, although a lot of shelters are limited in their knowledge of that. Try and talk to whoever handles them and cleans the cage to find out how they have been acting and if they are showing any signs of illness, like sneezing or red coloring on their paws. Know what kinds of personalities you're looking for before going in. I already had two smaller girls so I knew I wanted confident boys but ones that were calm and not overly dominant, so I chose the ones that looked to be right in the middle of the hierarchy of the group and didn't mind when I picked them up. They turned out to be perfect and they are wonderful.

A foster network is a rescue where all of the animals are in foster homes and not a shelter environment. One of the advantages to this is that the rats have been living in a house with other people around. You can get a better idea of how the rat will act in a house and the foster parent generally knows more about the rat's personality and temperment than a shelter employee would. Foster parents also have more knowledge of care than a lot of shelters so they may be healthier coming from a foster.

I have never gotten a rat from a breeder although I do understand the benefits. My heart lies in rescue and I strongly advocate for that. For that reason I decided to get rescues instead of breeders.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

InuLing said:


> One thing no one else mentioned, if you're going to use a substrate for them, don't use wood chips


You are mistaken. 

Aspen is a hardwood and is 100% safe and really great to use. I use aspen in all my cages. 

You do not want to use SOFTWOODS such as cedar or pine. BUT.... most pine bedding out there is kiln dried. There is some debate on the safety of kiln dried pine. Drying it is suppose to remove the oils. IMO there is just not enough research or evidence one way or the other, so I choose not to use it. But I wouldn't say it is bad or good, everyone should research and decide for themselves. I know tons of people who use it.

i have used fleece in the past and it is great IF used correctly. And i really think it only is good if your rats are litter trained.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would get them from a good breeder, not a pet store or feeder bin or bad breeder. It makes all the difference in the world. Especially as a first time rat owner, you want loving, well bred, well socialized ratties.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I admit I always get the woods mixed up. One of the reasons I don't use them. Only wood my rats get is their manzanita branches.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Just back from a first rat supply shopping trip. Picked up a water bottle and a couple cage accessories and toys. I think I'm going to have to make some of the stuff. I had trouble finding exactly what I was looking for.

Catty-ratty: I was tempted by the rats in the pet store. The lady with them was really trying to talk me into taking one home that day. The one my daughter and I handled was very sweet and mellow. I've lost the spontaneity I once had though. The spouse throws a hissy fit about not being included on big decisions like pets. If he wasn't in the picture though, I probably would have brought that one and another home the same day and just let them live in the 20 gallon long tank with the topper until the real cage came in. Younger, single me always brought home the stray kitten in the parking lot.. lol I probably will go with a breeder this time. I would go with a rescue, but the closest one looks like it's a couple hours away and doesn't look like they will adopt out to homes with small children. They also charge $30, but don't spay/neuter, which seems odd to me. 

Kelsbels: Unfortunately for me, there is a petco, a pet supermarket, and one mom and pop type store. The breeder I ran into was at the Pet Supermarket. The mom and pop type store has fancy rats, but the store is just squalid. The smell hits you when you walk in the door. I would be afraid of bringing home a sick one from there. The petco almost never has rats, but does sometimes. The Pet Supermarket doesn't have any rats. I'm going to be stuck finding a breeder. I'm sure I could probably track down the one at the Pet Supermarket, but, there are also a few I've found on Facebook and Craigslist that might be good. 

Inuling, if there was a shelter near me that had rats now, I would probably at least stop in and check them out. If they were friendly, I would go that route. But, there's only a couple rescues and most of their rats are marked not for homes with small children. When my cage is all setup, I will still go ahead and give the local kill shelters a call just in case. Things have a strange way of working out. The day after I had to have my Great Dane put down, I was up late and kept hearing a strange noise, like a raccoon was trapped under the porch. It was storming, but, I finally decided I better go have a look. I found a wet, muddy puppy, probably around 6 weeks old. My parents house was out on acreage, so no idea where he came from. I reported him to animal control, but, no one ever called to claim him. Mickey is 14 now and has been one of the best dogs I've ever had. If the shelter has a friendly, tame rat the day my cage is ready, I'll take it as a sign and bring that one home.. lol They never did get rats very often, but, they ALWAYS have hamsters.. Never really got in gerbils there either. Just lots and lots of bite-y hamsters. 

moonkissed, I've spent a lot of time look at bedding choices too. The recommendations and choices have really changed quite a bit. Years ago, tons of people used cedar shavings, I even did for a little while. Then, people realized cedar wasn't a good choice and pine was the most recommended thing. Eventually they realized that pine may have too much in the way of aromatic oils as well and aspen surged in popularity. Corn cob has been popular now and then. Finally Carefresh and other similar products came along. With my large house rabbits, I used compressed wood pellets in a thin layer covered by a thick layer of aspen. Large rabbits pee a huge amount, the extra absorbency was pretty necessary and I didn't notice any sneezing from them. The compressed wood pellets are hit and miss, some bags have some pine smell and some have none at all. I already use the pellets for my cats litter boxes out in the sunroom, so, it's easy enough for me to sideline the ones that don't have a smell for rats and just use any with a pine smell for the cat boxes. I may experiment with a thin layer way at the bottom of the pan and aspen on top. But, any sneezing will be the end of that experiment. The compressed wood pellets usually aren't any one particular kind of wood, so you can get batches that are mostly pine and batches that have very little pine. They are kiln dried anyways, so it really shouldn't even matter. I do plan to experiment a bit with fleece on the shelves. I may even start with fleece in the upper part of the critter nation. 

Gribouilli: I probably will end up going the breeder route. When the cage is ready I will check the two local kill shelters just in case. But, I volunteered at one of them for several years and only remember a few rats coming through the whole time I was there. They always have hamsters though, so, if I ever want to get bitten every time I have to do something in a cage, I know right where to get a nippy little puffball.. There is one kill shelter that charges $30 for rats but at least they do neuter them. But, they just about never have them.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Since you're already experienced with small pets I think you'll love rats. It sucks that you had a bad experience with budgies (assuming thats what you meant by parakeets) Hand raised budgies from a breeder are very social.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Fu-Inle said:


> Since you're already experienced with small pets I think you'll love rats. It sucks that you had a bad experience with budgies (assuming thats what you meant by parakeets) Hand raised budgies from a breeder are very social.


Yes, that's what I mean by parakeets. The ones I had were from a hoarding situation. Something like 100 birds were seized all from one little old lady. They were fed and everything, but, they were all in the smallest cage sold for their species. Animal shelter had a hard time winning that case since technically they were in cages sold for the species they were, but, just about all of them had severe feather picking. The parakeets were in those stupid little 10" by 12" cages that used to be for sale in every pet shop. I'm happy not to see anything quite that small anymore, but, disappointed to still see a little 14" by 18" described as 'roomy'.. lol 

One day I may try them again. I just have to wait for my home to be less of a home for geriatric dogs and cats.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Where are you located? I am a breeder myself & am in many breeder groups I might be able to suggest one.

IMO the best place to find breeders is local facebook groups most often. If you search for your state or a large city near you + rat you will often find some good groups and can ask if there are local breeders anyone would suggest.


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

Jenniferinfl said:


> Kelsbels: Unfortunately for me, there is a petco, a pet supermarket, and one mom and pop type store. The breeder I ran into was at the Pet Supermarket. The mom and pop type store has fancy rats, but the store is just squalid. The smell hits you when you walk in the door. I would be afraid of bringing home a sick one from there. The petco almost never has rats, but does sometimes. The Pet Supermarket doesn't have any rats. I'm going to be stuck finding a breeder. I'm sure I could probably track down the one at the Pet Supermarket, but, there are also a few I've found on Facebook and Craigslist that might be good.


That's too bad with the local shop, and if there's an intense smell I wouldn't get them from there either. It's just important the the rats you pick are healthy, friendly, and outgoing.  It sounds like you might have a fair options of breeders in your area! I hope you can find a good one. Best wishes!


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> Where are you located? I am a breeder myself & am in many breeder groups I might be able to suggest one.
> 
> IMO the best place to find breeders is local facebook groups most often. If you search for your state or a large city near you + rat you will often find some good groups and can ask if there are local breeders anyone would suggest.


I did find a Facebook rat group that is local. I found one breeder through there, haven't made contact yet as I don't want to be a pest until the cage is actually ready. I'm in central Florida, between Daytona and Orlando. 

Kelsbels: Thank you, I hope I do to. The local shop is fairly new, so I was pretty excited to go into it, but, it stank the first day. They have the animals in really small enclosures and just too many, so the smell is pretty strong. We only briefly had a good local pet shop, but the owner pretty much put it out of business by not taking debit/credit cards. Then, he finally started accepting cards, but only if you spent $20. They weren't friendly at all, but at least the shop was clean.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Make contact with the breeder early rather than wait for your cage to arrive. The reputable breeders have a wait list as well as an application so you may not even be eligible for their current litter. 
Rats smell a lot less than ferrets, in my experience, by the way.

We currently have 7 boys. Two of them were originally from a pet store, one used to be a breeder that we adopted, two were born to a feeder mom that the snake did not want to eat (we then adopted them from a rescue), and two were breeder babies. We have had many rats through the years. Our shyest boys have most definitely been the ones from the pet store, followed by "bad situation" rats from hoarding or feeder breeder situations. Our nicest and friendliest boys have come from a breeder. Of course this doesn't mean you should only buy from a breeder (finding a good breeder is like looking for a needle in a haystack anyway) but in my experience, the rescue rats require a lot more socialization and work. It can be highly rewarding to see the progress you make with shy rats, especially when they come to you as biters so it is worth all the trouble in the long run. My heart rat was also a rescue.

$30 for a rescue rat is not necessarily a bad price, even if they are not spayed/neutered. I have been charged anywhere from about $15-30 for intact males and females and in the $60 range for spayed and neutered rats. Rat surgeries are highly expensive so it isn't unusual to be charged $60 or more so the rescue can recoup some of the expenses. If the rescue is reputable and runs through a foster home system, I would definitely look at adopting because you can get adults who already have distinct personalities and any issues are usually already known. Pet store rats are a coin toss, both in health and temperament.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Yeah the main downside to that is if you adopt a rat who's already a year old then you'll likely only get one year out of it. My boys were 9 months when I adopted them so I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it needs to be considered, especially if you have children because you get very attached to the little guys. Also it means major vet bills from failing health are likely to be closer at hand.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

On the other hand, my husband and I spent over $500 in vet bills in the first week of owning babies from a pet store. They had a virus and it was a complete nightmare. They were only 6 weeks old. 

We also adopted a 2 year old senior from a hoarding situation who lived to be almost 4! I think it's a coin toss either way. 

Also, you can adopt youngsters since rescues often take in pregnant females. We adopted 2 baby boys on Saturday from a rescue (drove 3 hours total to pick them up). We should have lots of time left with them and we are freeing up room for the foster to be able to intake more rats in need of a home. It's a win-win!


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

I ended up making contact with a breeder. I'm sure I will end up rescuing rats if these ones turn out to be a success. I haven't officially reserved any yet, as I'm not sure how long it will take to setup the cage and gather the supplies. (Well, I could be ready approximately three hours after the cage arrives on Friday, but spouse is tediously slow and will want to 'help', kid will also want to 'help', so, can probably assume that a 3 hour job will take 3 days instead... lol) If we had a larger rescue around where we could choose rats, that would be a different thing. Something crazy could still happen where I end up finding them at a shelter. We went to the icky pet store today in hopes that it was better, but it was worse. There was a poor impacted Texel guinea pig boar I wanted to save. But, I know giving them $30 for him just makes a space for them to do the same thing to another one. Hard to leave him there though. 

Just because everyone loves ratty cuteness, here are two potential candidates.. lol


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Aww! So adorable!


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Adorable. Rats with curly whiskers might just be the cutest thing on this earth. I am partial to PEWs and rexes.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I'd definitely go with animals from a breeder if you find a good breeder close to you. I'd ask them about their quarantine process, how often they get new animals in, how long they've had the parents / line just to check for any issues that might pop up. 

I have owned "rescue" rats from a litter dropped off at a pet store, "pet store" rats (from chain stores, they are mass-bred in mill-type situations), and rats from a breeder. I have had issues with all three sources, with horrible cancer problems with the rescued pups, stroke, RI, and temperament issues with the pet store rats, and even had temperament issues and MC (megacolon) with rats from the breeder. You have to be careful... Rats are prone to many health issues and a lot of that is related to genetics. Temperament can also be heavily effected by genetics (although handling can help with that), so ask the breeder you're looking into if they use animals that nip / bite in their breeding program, if any of their adult stock suffers from hormonal aggression, etc. 

In terms of temperament with rats, they are different than other small animals... I have had hamsters and guinea pigs and I would say they are more interactive than both and smarter than both... Some rats are a lot more sociable and calm than others though, so if you want those traits, be sure to tell the breeder what you are looking for.. I have some rats that want to come up and bet petted, others are ok with being held, but some of mine prefer to interact with other rats, not people. A good breeder will be using the most friendly rats to breed from, but the pups will still have tendencies of their own. Look for pups that are not afraid and come up to investigate you.. Also them not freaking out when being picked up (remaining calm) is a good sign. 

They can smell... A lot depends on cage size, diet, etc. But be prepared to clean frequently if needed. I use horse stall pellets underneath shredded aspen (a very thin layer of pellets) the pellets help absorb the urine while the shavings give them something to dig in. I have trays in my cage that are 2.5" deep, but deeper trays would be better to help keep litter in. 

I tried fleece, but had zero luck with it. I used it before with guinea pigs and loved it... The problem with the rats is that their urine smells more, so the fleece gets stinky quicker (even when you use an absorbent layer underneath) and rats are far more destructive than guinea pigs. My rats destroy fleece... I would change it out about 3 times a week because of smell but they would still manage to shred holes in it... I'd say I would get maybe 4-5 uses out of a piece of fleece before it was too holey to use. Between that and the constant washing and changing, I decided loose bedding was a better fit for me. Not all rats are that destructive, but many are, so be prepared for the fleece not to work and have a plan B if you go that route. 

With loose bedding, I do changes every week and empty / change their litter boxes 1-2 times per week. Their hammocks get changed out more frequently, as needed. I find they smell less if I don't change everything at once.. i.e. I will do the litter boxes one day, the hammock the next, and the shavings a few days later. If everything with their smell is removed, they tend to scent mark heavily. 

I would also advise sitting the cage somewhere with good ventilation, preferably somewhere you can open a window near it every once in a while. 

I would agree that FB groups are probably your best option to find a breeder in your area. I got my foundation stock from a breeder two states away (we met up at an event closer to me) but she was on a FB group that I was in, which is how I found her. If you like the breeder you've already found, hopefully they will be able to help you.

This is totally OT, but I appreciate what you mentioned about your non-feeding corn snake. I have snakes and have been having issues with a non-feeding western hognose for two years now. I am rehoming him to someone that breeds mice so that he will hopefully feed better for her (I feed f/t). Nothing is as bad as seeing an animal waste away and not being able to do anything about it... And you're right, an honest breeder would have told you about the feeding problem up front and should have kept the snake until they could get it to eat, or used it as a feeder for another snake (if they couldn't get it to eat). There are many good and bad people to buy from in the reptile industry, so you have to do your research on any potential breeders. If you ever decide to get back into reptiles, use the board of inquiry on fauna classifieds to check out any potential breeders (people list feedback there) and avoid CL like the plague... Buying at a show or from a breeder online with a good rep. are better options.  

As for your cage furnishings, rats are pretty easy. They do appreciate having lots of things to do / climb on, but I've found they enjoy some cheap things too.. With my setups, I use climbing rope perches (booda brand and others, the kind that screw onto the cage), Space pods (reusable plastic hanging pods.. I put shredded paper inside for bedding), hammocks, and lots of empty cardboard boxes... Which they LOVE to chew and nest in. I'd start saving those and your toilet paper rolls now, as you can change them out frequently with wear. You can also get things like baskets, dog rope toys and shower curtain rings (to make climbing chains) from the dollar store. I have used wheels, but have found that most of my rats don't use them. I have since taken them out and replaced them with more climbing things and hammocks. Having some chew toys is also a good idea. Mine seem to love the toys with wood and pumice stone (like lava ledges). 

Good luck with finding your rats. Hopefully they will end up being a good match for what you are looking for.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

artgecko said:


> They can smell... A lot depends on cage size, diet, etc. But be prepared to clean frequently if needed. I use horse stall pellets underneath shredded aspen (a very thin layer of pellets) the pellets help absorb the urine while the shavings give them something to dig in. I have trays in my cage that are 2.5" deep, but deeper trays would be better to help keep litter in.


That's funny, that's exactly what I was going to use. My husband is a welder, so, he's making me 3" deep trays at work to fit the critter nation. When I had rabbits, I always used those horse stall pellets with aspen over the top. Aspen is great, but, underneath it you have a soggy mess. Especially with rabbits who are big enough to drink 32 ounces a day.. lol SO MUCH pee! The pellets just takes all that up and turns into nice little sticky sawdust.. lol I was going to attempt the fleece just on the little shelves. I have tons of fleece already because I have a tendency of buying cheap remnants. I also have easy access to an absorbent layer to put between as I have a huge pile of cloth diapers from when kiddo was little. So, I can attempt the fleece with very little money outlay. 

I knew the corn snake was non-feeding when I got it. There was a pretty bad breeder near me where I lived before, but I found the snake on craigslist. She had sold it to a family with small children as a first snake. They were just trying to give it away to anyone who would try to get it to eat. I had a feeling it would die anyways, but, I thought it could live and at least would be a great learning experience in how to deal with a nonfeeding snake. I actually did get it going for awhile there, but, corn snakes generally eat easily and if they are nonfeeding it's probably for a reason, some issue we just can't see. But, it did give me practice in all those crazy techniques for getting one to start and a couple of them worked pretty well. I kind of knew going into it that this particular corn snake would probably not turn it completely around and be a healthy pet. I really, really wanted the experience to apply whenever I finally got a green tree python and if the corn snake recovered it would just be a win-win. Experience and saving some poor critter's life. 

Hognose's can be tough too. The only trick I remember for them is having a frog you can use to add the right scent to your F/T item you are actually feeding as I believe that is their preferred food item. For green tree pythons I want to say the trick was adding bird smell. 

Though, obviously, the easiest thing is just starting with a healthy well-established one.. lol Which is what I would probably try to do now. I no longer have just hours to spend trying to get one pet to eat.. lol


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Are you planning to litter train your rats? They'll likely never be 100% perfect but it saves a huge amount of effort and time to keep the cage clean, and it saves money because the only bedding you're throwing out often is the little bit in the box. I only clean the cage (take everyone and everything out and whipe the whole thing down, changing out hammocks and toys) about every other week but I dump litter boxes and spot check for poops where they missed twice a week. I have boys so sometimes they decide they're too lazy to go to the box. Lol

As for fleece working and not working, I found that when I tied it down they would chew holes in the corners so they could burrow under it. Now I just throw in enough pieces that the bottom is covered and the holey pieces just get tossed in a pile in the corner for them to burrow and nest. No more problem with chewed fleece since I started doing that. They were chewing because they wanted to get under it. Once I made it so they could do that they had no more reason to, and I gave them old fleece to shred or make into a nest if they wanted. They also can choose where they have fleece and where they don't so it's a fun activity for them to redecorate the cage I spent so much time and effort setting up.  Having a litter box is a must if you have fleece because it does get nasty like that easily. If they're not peeing on it then no problem. Also I limit how much cardboard I give my rats because my boys figured out that it absorbs liquids and now when I put a piece in they immediately start saturating it with urine and that stinks the cage up.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

That's awesome that your husband can weld and is doing pans for you... If he can do stainless steel, or if you are going to powdercoat them, that would work best. I have the stainless steel ones made by Bass and they are great. 

You may want to get him to make you pans for the upper shelves also... The plastic can be chewed and I had issues with my rats chewing the fleece where it was clipped to the edges (I used binder clips to attach it). If you can form some sort of "pillowcase" out of the fleece (if you sew), you may have better luck. Mine seemed to always go after whatever was holding the fleece down. I have replaced my upper shelves with metal ones (flower town chinchillas makes them, but Bass also makes them now) and that helped some with the smell, as the urine would soak into the plastic and be hard to remove. 

I get my pellets at tractor supply and they last me a long while. I am experimenting with a low-dust large flake pine shaving from there now (mixed with Aspen) to see how the rats do on it. So far, it is far less dusty than the aspen I have (which is lab-grade) and I haven't seen any ill-effects. I have never had any issues from using the pine pellets in their litter boxes or under the aspen. BTW, if you want to try litter training, get the boxes that clip to the side of the cage and have grates... The rats will dig in the litter otherwise and move the box around. Adding smooth stones to the box also incentives them to use it. 

My hognose fed fine when I got him... He just decided to stop feeding on f/t for me about 6 months after purchase. The lady I am rehoming him to can feed live, so that will hopefully solve that problem. If you do decide to get back into snakes, you should check out carpet pythons and boas (common boas or the smaller island and south American localities). Both tare great feeders in general and climb like GTP and ETB...But are less picky about conditions. I absolutely love my boas, they are garbage disposals, easy going, and easy to care for.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If you like dogs you will like rats. If you are thinking about rats as small animals you are very much mistaken. They are big animals that think, have emotions and can learn... and will actually bond with you to form a pack/family unit with you, like a dog. They take time and give love in return. That said some can be very independent... something like cats. But if you are thinking hamsters or gerbils, you will have a rough go of rats... like dogs, rats don't do well as caged animals.

Great rats can be found anywhere... I've seen great rats in pet shops... But I've also seen my share of nightmares there. The easiest rats to start with are those pre-socialized by a good breeder. Your next best option are rat pups 3 to 5 weeks old. Adult rats come with emotional luggage, some have been neglected or abused or worse... and some have been rehomed several times and built and lost meaningful relationships. In general terms these are screwed up animals. They can be fixed. Like most abused dogs can be fixed.... but.... your first rat experience shouldn't be trying to fix a biting or aggressive rat or dealing with a terrorized one. This is for people with more experience with normal rats.

I mean would you give a pit bull terrier that was rescued from dog fighting to a family with little kids that never had a dog before? It's not that a fighting dog can't be re-trained or that it might not become a great family pet with the right family but certain dogs and certain rats need to go to certain people.

Check out your local breeders, if that doesn't work, try and find pups that haven't been screwed up and if you can't find either... spend some time with your potential rat actually handling it. It should be alert and curious, it might be a little bit afraid of you but it shouldn't try and bite. I've found friendly and sweet rats in feeder bins and in pet shops... and there are no doubt some at rescues... but handle them extensively before taking them home to be sure.

Lastly, for now, put your compassion aside. There's a human tendency to adopt rats in the worst need... Sick rats will cost you big vet bills and screwed up rats will cost you blood, sweat and tears.... literally. Some day you might be ready to take on a major challenge, but don't forget rats are fast, agile, smart and have razor sharp teeth. A friendly and bonded rat will never bite you or anyone else, but a rat that someone else has screwed up for you or a sick rat can actually lower the quality of your life... 

Think dog, not gerbil!

Never forget that cute, friendly and sweet rats need good forever homes too.

Best luck.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

InuLing said:


> Are you planning to litter train your rats? They'll likely never be 100% perfect but it saves a huge amount of effort and time to keep the cage clean, and it saves money because the only bedding you're throwing out often is the little bit in the box. I only clean the cage (take everyone and everything out and whipe the whole thing down, changing out hammocks and toys) about every other week but I dump litter boxes and spot check for poops where they missed twice a week. I have boys so sometimes they decide they're too lazy to go to the box. Lol
> 
> As for fleece working and not working, I found that when I tied it down they would chew holes in the corners so they could burrow under it. Now I just throw in enough pieces that the bottom is covered and the holey pieces just get tossed in a pile in the corner for them to burrow and nest. No more problem with chewed fleece since I started doing that. They were chewing because they wanted to get under it. Once I made it so they could do that they had no more reason to, and I gave them old fleece to shred or make into a nest if they wanted. They also can choose where they have fleece and where they don't so it's a fun activity for them to redecorate the cage I spent so much time and effort setting up.  Having a litter box is a must if you have fleece because it does get nasty like that easily. If they're not peeing on it then no problem. Also I limit how much cardboard I give my rats because my boys figured out that it absorbs liquids and now when I put a piece in they immediately start saturating it with urine and that stinks the cage up.


I will probably put some sort of litter box in there. With my rabbits I just watched for their preferred corner and stuck the litter box there, but, it sounds like rats aren't quite like that. I'll probably repurpose a plastic box I already have though.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

They are sort of like that. They will pick a corner and you can put the box there. One thing to do when litter training them is when they poop outside the box, throw the poops in the box instead of throwing them out. They will go where the potty smell is. Also, pee rocks are useful. A pee rock is just a small rock about the size of your palm. For whatever reason rats like peeing on them. I have one in each box.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

artgecko said:


> That's awesome that your husband can weld and is doing pans for you... If he can do stainless steel, or if you are going to powdercoat them, that would work best. I have the stainless steel ones made by Bass and they are great.
> 
> You may want to get him to make you pans for the upper shelves also... The plastic can be chewed and I had issues with my rats chewing the fleece where it was clipped to the edges (I used binder clips to attach it). If you can form some sort of "pillowcase" out of the fleece (if you sew), you may have better luck. Mine seemed to always go after whatever was holding the fleece down. I have replaced my upper shelves with metal ones (flower town chinchillas makes them, but Bass also makes them now) and that helped some with the smell, as the urine would soak into the plastic and be hard to remove.
> 
> ...


We're going way old school, aluminum pans. They were all anyone used in the 80's, I couldn't find any articles against using them, probably just fell out of popularity for being plain old ugly.. I'll probably start out using the plastic shelves it comes with and eventually trade them out when they aren't coming clean anymore. I do sew, though, my sewing machine just cackled from it's case in the back of the cabinet. I think I took it out last about 3 years ago.. lol Yeah, I was going to make a pillowcase like cover for the shelves out of fleece with a layer of old cloth diaper for absorbency. I got a pile of those. 

I've tried to talk myself into jungle carpet pythons more times than I can count. I'm afraid I'm stuck on the GTP. Wish I wasn't! Also have tried to talk myself into any of the fancier looking ball pythons. Piebalds are pretty awesome. Now that they are sub $500 they are even a possibility.. That might be for when kid turns 6..


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

InuLing said:


> They are sort of like that. They will pick a corner and you can put the box there. One thing to do when litter training them is when they poop outside the box, throw the poops in the box instead of throwing them out. They will go where the potty smell is. Also, pee rocks are useful. A pee rock is just a small rock about the size of your palm. For whatever reason rats like peeing on them. I have one in each box.


Haha, that's funny. I wonder why? "Sweet rock, can't wait to pee on it" < every rat ever? I will have to dig through my aquarium stuff cause i know I have all kinds of rocks.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> If you like dogs you will like rats. If you are thinking about rats as small animals you are very much mistaken. They are big animals that think, have emotions and can learn... and will actually bond with you to form a pack/family unit with you, like a dog. They take time and give love in return. That said some can be very independent... something like cats. But if you are thinking hamsters or gerbils, you will have a rough go of rats... like dogs, rats don't do well as caged animals.
> 
> Great rats can be found anywhere... I've seen great rats in pet shops... But I've also seen my share of nightmares there. The easiest rats to start with are those pre-socialized by a good breeder. Your next best option are rat pups 3 to 5 weeks old. Adult rats come with emotional luggage, some have been neglected or abused or worse... and some have been rehomed several times and built and lost meaningful relationships. In general terms these are screwed up animals. They can be fixed. Like most abused dogs can be fixed.... but.... your first rat experience shouldn't be trying to fix a biting or aggressive rat or dealing with a terrorized one. This is for people with more experience with normal rats.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts. I worked in a shelter for awhile and did see that tendency to want to take home the dog that was the worst off. We were a high kill area back then and I would have trouble wrapping my head around why someone wanted to take the worst one, it's like, man, we're going to be putting down puppies tomorrow, take one of them, not the crazy neglect case. Sometimes I would bluntly tell people that the perfectly good dog in the next pen over was going to get euthanized too. (Not to brag, but, I'm so proud of my local shelter. They managed a 71% live release rate last year and we're on track to be a functionally no kill community by 2020. Big progress in 20 years) 

I will probably go the breeder route this time. 

It's kind of weird to think dog on these guys, but, I will endeavor. I'm more dog person than cat person, so, this should work out fine.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The hugest mistake people make is to think rats are small animals and lock them into a cage. The rats become stressed and anti-social like any dog would if caged too long and will begin to act out by fighting among themselves or biting their humans. When people think dog... social animals that can learn and have thoughts and emotions and can be real house pets, things tend to work out much better for everyone. Our rats live free range in the house most of the time... yes, they can be a bit destructive, but they can also be trained to not destroy your stuff and they can be litter box trained. If you think about wild rats, they live in dumps, homes, subways and on every continent and island in the world except for Antarctica. Rats are very competent big animal in a small package... Think about it, when was the last time you saw a rat hit by a car? I once watched a wild rat cross a street.... it stopped and looked both ways and waited for the road to be clear... I've seen dogs that can't figure that out.

Take a look at this vid.... this was a real rat and she was both brilliant and amazing, she walked at heel, could find the car or house from over half a mile away, and was every bit as good and smart as any dog. Yes, she was exceptional, but you'll get the idea..

https://vid.me/BzNQ


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> The hugest mistake people make is to think rats are small animals and lock them into a cage. The rats become stressed and anti-social like any dog would if caged too long and will begin to act out by fighting among themselves or biting their humans. When people think dog... social animals that can learn and have thoughts and emotions and can be real house pets, things tend to work out much better for everyone. Our rats live free range in the house most of the time... yes, they can be a bit destructive, but they can also be trained to not destroy your stuff and they can be litter box trained. If you think about wild rats, they live in dumps, homes, subways and on every continent and island in the world except for Antarctica. Rats are very competent big animal in a small package... Think about it, when was the last time you saw a rat hit by a car? I once watched a wild rat cross a street.... it stopped and looked both ways and waited for the road to be clear... I've seen dogs that can't figure that out.
> 
> Take a look at this vid.... this was a real rat and she was both brilliant and amazing, she walked at heel, could find the car or house from over half a mile away, and was every bit as good and smart as any dog. Yes, she was exceptional, but you'll get the idea..
> 
> https://vid.me/BzNQ


Well, then we're probably okay. My last pair of rabbits had free range of the living room, they would go back to their cage if they had to go. I would often come home from work to find them sleeping on the sofa. My gerbil couldn't free range, because if she ended up the floor she was too skittish to retrieve. Did try it a few times anyways, it's why I'm missing a big piece of drywall behind my fridge.. lol But, even so, she had run of the desk when I was on the computer and then run of the table during school/studytime. 

I've never been a fan of the ornamental pet except for when that was what suited the animal. I did treat my tarantulas and fish like ornamental pets. Just for looking at. If I ever got a green tree python, I also wouldn't handle it because they stress easily. 

I've treated any other small animal like an individual with a right to interaction and exercise outside of their enclosure. I like to give them the most space that I can while still keeping them safely. For individuals, that varies. It was easy to teach the rabbits not to chew cords, I just painted the cords with that bitter apple stuff they used to sell to cure thumb-sucking. Doubt that's on the market anymore.. lol They occasionally sampled the furniture, but, didn't find anything to their liking. My tortoise has free range of the whole sunroom even though he's a stinker and just goes anywhere. At least it's just a once a day or so thing, so, easy enough to clean up. 

Since these will probably be baby rats, I will probably start them out on the table and we'll go from there. I'm trying to find a good playpen or two. Something where my daughter and I could both sit in it on the floor with them in the livingroom until they are accustomed to us. Clawsy had a couple drywall holes, thankfully all behind major appliances, so I can't really let them free range fully until I can call them. So, that will be one of the first things we'll be working on. I don't know if I'll ever be able to let them fully free range through the house, but, they can be out on the table when I'm working on stuff. Our dining room table is rarely used for actually dining. It's where I sort micro-fossils, my spouse works on his model railroading cars and my kid paints or colors or plays with playdoh. Clawsy used to run around through all of that and be a general nuisance.. lol

Awesome video by the way..  I have no doubts that they are fantastically intelligent.. Thank you


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I wrote the immersion guide under rat behavior. It's a method of socializing your rats through communication and understanding. I developed the method in conjunction with Fuzzy Rat, the rat in the vid. It might give you some ideas on what to do when you get your new rats.

I, like most people, once thought of rats as small animals. Then my ideas became challenged by my actual experiences and I started getting the sneaking feeling that there was something wrong with the model of rats that I had in my mind. Finally... along comes Fuzzy Rat. She learned all sorts of words and commands which I suppose I might have reasonably expected, but then one day I realized she was rewarding me for doing what she wanted.... I was being trained! She could predict and manipulate our behavior and this was an entirely higher level of thinking than I had ever expected. 

In any event, we continued teaching her and "experimenting" with her and she became amazingly competent outdoors and indoors. On the down side, when she felt she was being ignored, she would destroy the electronic devices that were distracting us from playing with her or at least slash their wires... As she hardly ever slept, she liked a lot of attention. In any event, the more freedom we gave her, the more she evolved. 

Now, we've had smart and sweet rats since, but I doubt most of us will ever see the likes of her again... she was very special. But the lesson learned was that rats really are remarkable social animals that will pack bond with their humans. Like children, they need coaching and emotional support to become all they can be. People who get it, wind up with amazing best furry friends, people who think that rats are small cage or exhibit animals wind up with very unhappy rats and have a really bad time with them.

Some people probably should own tropical fish, they are colorful and active and fun to watch... My friend used to call his salt water aquarium a living painting. And so it was. But if you love to interact with your animals and raise them and teach them, you have an amazing trip ahead of you.

Best luck.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Jenniferinfl said:


> ... I would have trouble wrapping my head around why someone wanted to take the worst one, it's like, man, we're going to be putting down puppies tomorrow, take one of them, not the crazy neglect case...


For 3 1/2 years I worked in the public eye helping animal shelters and rescues. During that time, I couldn't even begin to tell you how many people I talked to who adopted 'the crazy neglect case'. If you worked in a shelter, then you know that puppies are more likely to get adopted than all others. All of those people told me they would rather save the dog/cat that had the least chance of getting adopted. Not a single person I talked to regretted taking the 'worst one'. In fact, everyone of those people that I talked to told me that dog/cat was the best pet they ever had, especially the bait-dog pit bulls rescued from fighting rings.

Years ago, I picked up a golden retriever that had been dumped. She had a horrible case of demodectic mange. At the time, treatments for red mange were nowhere near as effective as they are today. That dog almost died. By the time she recovered, she had almost no fur and little ever grew back. 

I know that if she had ended up in a shelter, she very probably would have been euthanized on the spot.

She was absolutely the most loyal dog I ever had. She would have died for me. I mean that in every sense. She set the standard for all other dogs to follow. No dog before her or after her has lived up to her standards and I suspect none ever will.

It just really disturbs me when I hear people make a judgement on an animal whose abuse and neglect have resulted in mental and physical illness. If anything, I believe that animal is more deserving than any other to be adopted. They deserve to know that not all humans are as heartless as the people who abandoned it. 

Rest in Peace Girdie


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

To be honest, I admire people who adopt screwed up or sick rats. And I might even advocate it in some cases.... but not to new rat owners. There's a learning curve with a first rat and every first time rat owner should have that great new rat experience. To start out with expensive vet visits and a biting rat isn't good for either the human or the animal... It's precisely what gets screwed up rats listed on craigs list or dropped off at a shelter... or worse.

Once a person gets some experience with a really good first rat friend, then they might be more ready to face a challenging one. But people who don't know how to deal with a sick or twisted up rat aren't likely to help them anyway, while there are great healthy and friendly rats being fed to snakes every day that would have been a much better fit for a new rat owner.

If someone has the skills, the time, the patience and the money to take on a problem rat, they should be encouraged to do it; if not... more compassion than good sense is only going to get them into trouble. Also, for example I have another healthy rat and a 10 year old daughter. Bringing home a sick rat can harm our other rat and bringing home a biting rat for my daughter to play with isn't something I'm likely to do... mostly because I'm in my right mind. I regret every rat I've ever left behind in a feeder bin but I do my best to choose the right rat for our family... I'm looking for the healthiest, the the friendliest, the smartest and the "best" one to save not the sickly runt or the deranged one. When I choose among three rats, like I had to do last week, one was going to live in a great home and two were going to be fed to snakes.... we had three great rats to choose form... I'd like to think I picked the right one... still I can't imagine taking home a rat that I know will be a problem and leaving two "better" ones to be fed to snakes behind. Maybe, I did, maybe I didn't, but if I picked the wrong rat, I didn't do it on purpose.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> For 3 1/2 years I worked in the public eye helping animal shelters and rescues. During that time, I couldn't even begin to tell you how many people I talked to who adopted 'the crazy neglect case'. If you worked in a shelter, then you know that puppies are more likely to get adopted than all others. All of those people told me they would rather save the dog/cat that had the least chance of getting adopted. Not a single person I talked to regretted taking the 'worst one'. In fact, everyone of those people that I talked to told me that dog/cat was the best pet they ever had, especially the bait-dog pit bulls rescued from fighting rings.
> 
> Years ago, I picked up a golden retriever that had been dumped. She had a horrible case of demodectic mange. At the time, treatments for red mange were nowhere near as effective as they are today. That dog almost died. By the time she recovered, she had almost no fur and little ever grew back.
> 
> ...


Point of view is everything here. When I worked at the local shelter 18 years ago, we had a 75% kill rate. At a 75% kill rate, you are euthanizing adoptable puppies and kittens. When someone comes in asking for the dog with the worst chances with those kinds of odds, they all become kind of equivalent. It's like, yeah, we are euthanizing this 7 year old dog with mange who has never been socialized tomorrow. We are also euthanizing this litter of puppies because they are all black and didn't attract enough attention and the three year old, well-socialized lab whose owner died. Basically, tomorrow, they're all equal. 

I think Rat Daddy and I were discussing not getting in over your head with a first pet. I've never had rats before, I've had other small animals, but, rats are different. His advice was not to start with a project for my first rat. I generally agree that project pets are for people with experience with that sort of pet. 

I've had my fair share of project pets. I just finished life with the toughest dog I ever owned. She was a ten year nightmare of a dog. I made it though, we managed to keep her to the very end. Dogs were my favorite pet, favorite animal and best friends. I haven't been without a dog in 27 years, but, after her, I need a break. I've spent the last ten years making raw dog food, crating everyone separately for meals, babygating off half of my house and enduring a dog who had separation anxiety (think, destroy the laundry room door and dig a dog sized hole down through the mattress when someone forgot to crate her one afternoon for an hour), fear aggression, resource guarding, dog aggression. It was rough. It's not even that she was a bad dog all the time, I did get her pretty well trained, you just couldn't trust her not to snap and do something completely nutso when you weren't looking. I knew dogs and loved dogs when I got her. Now, I'm tired. She was 4 when I adopted her, had mange and flea allergies, old hit by car injuries and had spent her whole life in isolation tied to a dog house. 

If she would have been my first dog, I never would have managed to keep her until she died at 14. Not only that, I NEVER would have gotten another dog. As it is, I still might not get another dog. 

Yes, I do think that she deserved to know another human wasn't heartless. But, it came at a price. The price was quality of life for my other two dogs who had to give up anything she might consider a resource. I had to quit fostering for the local shelter because she couldn't be trusted. She had a spot in my home that could have gone to any of a number of good dogs who have been put down since. She prevented my other two dogs from fully enjoying their lives. She stopped me from making an impact on the 25-50 or so kittens I bottle fed and fostered over the course of just about every summer. So, that's two unhappy dogs and 250-500 kittens that didn't get fostered and one person with rescue burnout. I don't even know if it was worth it to her, she wasn't an overly cheerful dog. 

No good deed goes unpunished.. lol 

So, there, now you have one person that regretted taking the worst one. 

I've owned 9 dogs, all were rescues. I've owned 8 cats, all were rescues. I've never surrendered or given up an animal, we've always made it work. I've adopted hamsters, gerbils, ferrets, guinea pigs, rabbits, hedgehogs, doves, parakeets, lovebirds, chickens and an iguana. Most of the small animals had been neglected and suffered shortened lifespans and health problems. Quite a few were pretty old when I adopted them. Only one of my 9 dogs was adopted as a puppy, most were large dogs over the age of 4. Overall, I've adopted around 42 animals from kill shelters in the last 20 years, most of them small animals, all of them stayed with me for life. 

I purchased and sold rabbits as a teenager when I was a show breeder. But, when I quit, I kept my breeder animals who couldn't be rehomed. They retired with me. 

Since that point, I've gotten one free snake off of craigslist, which some people would call a rescue since they were giving it away because they couldn't get it to eat. I've purchased a tortoise from a breeder and a gerbil from a pet store. So, three non-rescue pets compared to 42 pets from kill shelters. I think I'm doing alright.. lol 

So, yeah, I'm not anti-rescue for sure. I had my collie mix, Savannah, put down about a month and a half ago. The experience is still pretty fresh for me. I'm not even really against getting a project pet, but, I KNOW I can't do it right now. It's not about whether or not they deserve it, it's about what I know enough to handle. I don't know rats well enough to read body language and get subtle cues. I'm not familiar with their behavior and mannerisms. Thus, at this point, I probably shouldn't get one that has serious issues. I need to get a 'normal' rat. There will be enough for me to learn with a plain old socialized normal rat. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

First I should say this........

I have to admit that after 3 1/2 years of having to listen to ***holes nearly every single day telling me horrible stories that kept me awake at night and brought on nightmares. People told me what they have or would do to an animal, trying to get a rise out of me and not being able to rip those people a new one because it could very possibly kill the program that meant so much to me as an animal lover..........And then finding out that my ethics differed drastically with those of the company I helped found....

I am still a bit sensitive to things I hear people say about shelter animals. I'm still a bit jaded. I have to admit after putting so much of my life into what at times seemed like a completely lost cause, I guess I'm also still a bit angry and a lot oversensitive. My faith in humanity will probably never be the same. 

That being said, I didn't mean to imply that you should rescue an emotionally, mentally and physically damaged rat. 

I said in one my first posts in this thread that I thought it would be best for a new rat owner to go through a breeder or rescue. I just happened to get lucky. Like you, I was willing to keep my rat and do whatever it took to make her happy if I couldn't find a home for her. 

I've had my fair share of injured animals as well, physically and emotionally. I have an unofficial rescue out here in the country. I seriously have more animals than some shelters in small cities. No I don't hoard them, I don't go get them. They find me. I've taken in more injured and sick animals that didn't make than those that did. 

Again, I didn't mean to imply that you should adopt needy rats, but your statement about wrapping your head around taking the crazy neglect case is still bothersome to me.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> First I should say this........I have to admit that after 3 1/2 years of having to listen to ***holes nearly every single day telling me horrible stories that kept me awake at night and brought on nightmares. People told me what they have or would do to an animal, trying to get a rise out of me and not being able to rip those people a new one because it could very possibly kill the program that meant so much to me as an animal lover..........And then finding out that my ethics differed drastically with those of the company I helped found....I am still a bit sensitive to things I hear people say about shelter animals. I'm still a bit jaded. I have to admit after putting so much of my life into what at times seemed like a completely lost cause, I guess I'm also still a bit angry and a lot oversensitive. My faith in humanity will probably never be the same. That being said, I didn't mean to imply that you should rescue an emotionally, mentally and physically damaged rat. I said in one my first posts in this thread that I thought it would be best for a new rat owner to go through a breeder or rescue. I just happened to get lucky. Like you, I was willing to keep my rat and do whatever it took to make her happy if I couldn't find a home for her. I've had my fair share of injured animals as well, physically and emotionally. I have an unofficial rescue out here in the country. I seriously have more animals than some shelters in small cities. No I don't hoard them, I don't go get them. They find me. I've taken in more injured and sick animals that didn't make than those that did. Again, I didn't mean to imply that you should adopt needy rats, but your statement about wrapping your head around taking the crazy neglect case is still bothersome to me.


I completely understood what you meant thanks for helping so many animals.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I completely understood what you meant thanks for helping so many animals.


Thank You!


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> Again, I didn't mean to imply that you should adopt needy rats, but your statement about wrapping your head around taking the crazy neglect case is still bothersome to me.


LOL, ah okay, I wasn't sure who you had issue with, Rat Daddy or me, but, at least now I know it's me. 

We had a neglect case one time where 36 dogs came in from a home where they had lived in dog crates stacked in the livingroom their whole life and they'd only seen one person and hadn't even gotten to play with each other much. They were all descended from one original pair and bred with siblings. The were fear aggressive, dog aggressive, resource guarding and just generally feral. None of them really cleared for adoption. But, it had been a huge media story and we had hundreds of people applying to adopt just these dogs. It would have been a public relations nightmare to euthanize 30 of them and only adopt out the 6 that barely cleared. So, that week we still put down just as many puppies and healthy, well-mannered dogs as usual, actually, even more because we had 36 more full kennels than usual, while tons of people applied for these absolutely dangerous dogs. We warned them that they were going to be biters, that they shouldn't be with other animals, that they shouldn't be with children. It was ridiculous. Then, weeks later, they started getting returned, but, they were all 10 day bite quarantines. Which means, even MORE healthy well-adjusted dogs got put down because the kennels were being used again to house dogs that had to be held for 10 days due to rabies concerns before finally getting euthanized. 

That is the behavior I cannot wrap my head around. I get wanting to feel like a hero. I think that's what those people wanted, they wanted to be a hero. They didn't want to just save any old dog, they wanted to make a dramatic rescue and really turn a dog's life around. But, most of them didn't actually have the skills to pull it off and all they did was cause a lot more harm for the other dogs at the shelter. We had hundreds of people turn up all who supposedly wanted a dog, but, only wanted the crazy ones. We didn't get much of an uptick in adoptions at all for the other dogs. I guess they didn't have a thrilling enough backstory to make their lives worth saving. 

There's neglect and then there's crazy neglect. There's the longhaired dog that the elderly person just can't groom anymore, but, before this they went everywhere together and the dog is well-socialized. They may come into the shelter looking awful, but, underneath is a wonderful dog that was well-loved before things went bad that just needs a little time. Then there's the crazy neglect cases like the one I mentioned above. Dogs from those circumstances can rarely turn it around and require VERY special, dedicated owners. Owners with backgrounds in animal behavior and dog training. The kind of people who can bring their dog to work, don't have many family obligations and so on. Those people are rare. I understand those people adopting the crazy neglect case. It's the only way they have a challenge anymore.


Since you also worked in an animal shelter, here's another thing that drives me crazy, the phrase, "I could never work in an animal shelter, I just love animals too much."

Ah, the flashbacks.. lol

On that note, I'm having a grown-up beverage and going to bed. This has been enough reminiscing for me for one night.. 

Oh fine, one more, my favorite surrender reason. "I didn't know what it drank, it wouldn't drink coke or pepsi" - on surrender card for a ferret I later adopted. 

Rescue people/ shelter people and former shelter/rescue people cannot help but step on each other's toes. It just goes with the territory.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Please forgive me for not reading your entire previous post. I'm still stinging from my job with shelters and animals. I quit about 2 months ago now. If I never hear another horror story or ridiculous excuse for giving up a pet, I will be just fine with that. 

Enjoy your rats.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Yeah those stories can tear you up, and it's worse when you realize they repeat themselves. My shelter used to take in dogs from those kinds of situations and from different counties, diverting them from the shelters they were supposed to go to, when they were already full. They just did it for publicity. Luckily we moved against them and got them removed from their position. The people running it now are great. That shelter is actually where I first met rats and learned their merits. They would get them in from time to time and being the volunteer who worked with small animals I was handling them daily until they got adopted. I fell in love and now look at me lol. 11 rats total.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

InuLing said:


> Yeah those stories can tear you up, and it's worse when you realize they repeat themselves.


This is exactly why I didn't go through with veterinary medicine in college.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Some time ago, I coached a rather unusual person through an extreme immersion... We're talking about a truly screwed up, hormonal and aggressively biting rat of the worst sort... When they said they just (intentionally) adopted this animal (on purpose) I almost replied "Why?" Then when I suggested that they wear gloves, they responded by saying they don't mind getting rat bitten... At that point, I started thinking that maybe I was dealing with someone just slightly unusual.... 

Well after a few days they got back to me and let me know that they had successfully socialized that problem rat... and they remarked that the extreme immersion had been 'fun', 'exciting' and rewarding. OK I get rewarding, but hours of combat with a rat that's trying to hurt you without gloves isn't my idea of fun... maybe exciting, but not in a good way. They also wrote me that they were going to look for another screwed up rat to fix.... I guess they didn't have enough fun with the first one.

Now, they did come to me for help, they followed instructions and they saved a screwed up animal and they deserve a great deal of credit for their beyond the call of duty effort. And perhaps they are still out there somewhere fixing screwed up rats... And if so, may Gawd bless them... They had the determination, they learned the skills... and perhaps by some standard, they were just a little bit nuts. But for the sake of animals I love, I'm glad they are out there.

That said, I've done lots of extreme immersions with 'normal' people and for most it's a harrowing experience, many have broke down into tears along the way. Yes, I'm very proud to say we've fixed a lot of rats, and I'm more than happy to help people to save their screwed up rats... But I'd never recommend that anyone start out with one.... 

There are in fact certain special people who know what they are doing with screwed up animals and have the right balance of compassion and crazy to do it. And these people should be encouraged (from a safe distance). At the same time, there are people that just need a furry best friend without all of the trauma.

Last week we adopted our new rat Bunny, from a fancy snake breeder that also breeds some spectacular rats, she's overly shy and fearful, but she has natural brown eyes which might give her an advantage in our shoulder rat training program... we left behind a striking 5 week old siamese and a beautifully marked bluish tan girl with an actual cross on her back that bruxed when we held her, because they had the wrong eye color... one rat was just beautiful and the other was very attractive and had a great personality... and they are both likely to be fed to snakes... and it really breaks my heart. Don't get me wrong, the rat we adopted is not unattractive and has a nice personality and a lot of potential once we get her on the right track... she is a very fine rat too... I'm just saying that I left behind two rats to be fed to snakes, that I, or anyone else on the forum should be proud to call their own. I can guarantee that neither of the rats we left behind would ever bite and both would socialize very nicely and become best friends without hardly any effort at all. In fact, they are all related to our true shoulder rats Cloud and Misty. And by the way we didn't even look at the males the breeder had on hand, so there are even more great rats that aren't going to good forever homes. And there was another litter on the way...

When I think about these great and healthy animals being fed to snakes, it breaks my heart... I have a lot of compassion for screwed up and sickly rats, but with perfect and outstanding ones being fed to snakes, my compassion is pretty much evenly split. I, for one am looking for the very best rat I can find to train to become amazing and to give a great life to. For every rat I save, thousand will die... I know I didn't go wrong adopting another rat, I just hope I saved the right one...


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> When I think about these great and healthy animals being fed to snakes, it breaks my heart... I have a lot of compassion for screwed up and sickly rats, but with perfect and outstanding ones being fed to snakes, my compassion is pretty much evenly split. I, for one am looking for the very best rat I can find to train to become amazing and to give a great life to. For every rat I save, thousand will die... I know I didn't go wrong adopting another rat, I just hope I saved the right one...



Did your daughter help choose? That's going to be the tough part for me because my kid is 5 and I really, really hope she likes the friendliest one, not the cutest one. I'm also kinda beginning to think that I hope she picks a female one because it sounds like I'd be neutering a male if we got one. I'm hoping to catch my vet on the phone this weekend and talk to her about chemical neutering with calcium chloride and see if she'd consider it. I don't really want to go through 3-4 rats all with stitches at the same time. It would be one thing if they neutered like cats, kittens often don't even need a single stitch, just glue, but DOGS are always stitches and so are rats and that's where it starts to be a nuisance. One is fine, but multiples makes it almost impossible to keep them from messing with each others stitches. 


Oh well, it's probably a good time to let this thread die before I say anything else that bugs people. Well, it could be worse, at least I'm not DOING things that bug people, I'm just structuring my sentences and sharing my personal philosophy in a way that annoys others. It's an issue I have pretty consistently in animal message boards. For a couple years there, I joined message boards as a male and was completely accepted; it's talking the way I do and being female that seems to trigger the issue.. lol It's just been awhile since I had to join anything new and I completely forgot about it. I'll pop in again if I have any questions setting up my DCN. 

Thank you for being helpful.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Actually it wasn't a problem for me neutering multiple rats at once. I got two neutered at the same time and after keeping them separated for a couple days they spent their next three weeks together and didn't bother each other at all. I kept an eye on their stitches and there was no problem. My vet used the dissolving stitches and in such a way that I never even saw them. Rats are spectacular healers and recover extremely quickly. I would suggest the surgery instead of trying something no one knows if it'll work and won't hurt the rat in the process.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I actually got a discount when I did two rats at once instead of just one. It was $100 for 1 rat, but only $130 for 2 rats


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

For me, gender has absolutely nothing to do with it. I stand for what I believe in based on my personal principles. 

My previous 'boss' was a _man_. In 3 1/2 years, I came down harder on him than _anyone one _when I questioned things he wanted to do with the company.

People I worked with routinely came to me to advise on how to deal with him. They wanted to know how I managed to not do things I had issue with. I had to be very stubborn in not backing down from him and standing my ground. He could be very dramatic and high strung. Towards the end of my work with him, we were less and less able to come to terms with our differences.

Among other things, that was why I quit that job. I left that job based on my principals and personal ethics.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Also, I know that I cannot save every single animal. It would be an impossible task. 

The one day I let my husband convince me to go into a pet store, I came out with a rat and eventually ended up with four more. 

This is why I won't go into pet stores or shelters. I couldn't possibly take them all home with me. I don't want to faced with the dilemma of choosing which one to rescue. Plus, I have enough animals just showing up at my house! Thankfully, I've never had more than I can care for. I hope I never do.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Yeah the hardest part of fostering for me was always learning to let them go after getting attached. It was so rewarding to see them go home though. I look forward to fostering again. I'm thinking I'll get another DCN and outfit it for cats. Then if I stop fostering again I can use it to give my rats more space. Win-win.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When we adopted our first rat the girl in the store asked if I wanted a girl or a boy... I said it didn't matter, what did she recommend? She suggested we get a girl so I wouldn't have to explain the "boy parts" to my then 5 year old daughter. I figured that was as good a reason as any so we only looked at girl pups... 

And yes, I always pick rats with my daughter... I tend to steer my daughter away from obvious problem rats... but my daughter has a tendency to pick good rats... we talk about what's important in a rat before we go out to adopt, so we tend to look for the same things...

Natural color eyes are important for a rat that goes outdoors to see better... good health is important, as is a good temperament... We only really disagreed on one rat... Fuzzy Rat. Fuzzy rat was a very plain looking rat with an off center black splotch on her back and a short square snout. Fuzzy Rat kept crawling back to my daughter and up onto her hands... My daughter fell in love with her instantly... I put Fuzzy Rat back into the bin 3 times and tried to show my daughter the other prettier and sharper looking rats... In the end, I was three times wrong, my daughter was right. The perfect rat actually picked her and my daughter got it while I didn't. 

Talk about what's important with your daughter first, so you can discuss the rats you meet while you are there. Explain why girl rats are more fun, if you don't want boys... Guide or steer your encounter by educating your child first, and as long as the rat your daughter chooses is healthy and friendly... you might want to go with her feelings... After all, as my daughter put it... "She's going to be my rat... and I want this one!" And I apparently have a very smart kid...

As to neutering... this is generally unnecessary. If you properly socialize male rats and work with them there is no need to neuter them. I've worked with two people who raised 100% wild male rats... back then the myth was that all wild male rats needed to be neutered. Both rats grew up to become squishy sweet hearts. Neither needed neutering. Rats are social animals... the live in a family structure we call a pack. When you raise your pack hands on as their parent, some say alpha, you teach your rats and they follow your lead. You can even teach most rats not to scent mark too much. 

Rats are learning animals, if you put the time and work in... which really is more fun than work, your rats will become great friends and family members and grow up to be amazing... 

While it's true that some male rats might have hormonal problems that make it hard for them to control their behavior, this isn't very common. Some rats do need to be neutered, but in all reality with immersion socialization, neutering is done a lot more infrequently.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> When we adopted our first rat the girl in the store asked if I wanted a girl or a boy... I said it didn't matter, what did she recommend? She suggested we get a girl so I wouldn't have to explain the "boy parts" to my then 5 year old daughter. I figured that was as good a reason as any so we only looked at girl pups...
> 
> And yes, I always pick rats with my daughter... I tend to steer my daughter away from obvious problem rats... but my daughter has a tendency to pick good rats... we talk about what's important in a rat before we go out to adopt, so we tend to look for the same things...
> 
> ...


The breeder I talked to has a litter that won't be ready for another three weeks and is mostly male. But, I believe there are two females. So, it will be either come home with just two rats if we pick girl or 3-4 rats if we pick boy. She says she doesn't have any adult male rats that are biters or have aggression issues. Apparently she had one that didn't get along with other rats last year and she rehomed him without breeding him and clearly stated that he wasn't good with other rats. So, I guess that's good. 

I'm just getting paranoid from reading all the biter threads in behavior.. lol Can you tell? 

My kid picked her gerbil by choosing the one that came up to her and that was a great gerbil. So, maybe I'll quit overthinking it. 

Thanks again.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

InuLing said:


> Actually it wasn't a problem for me neutering multiple rats at once. I got two neutered at the same time and after keeping them separated for a couple days they spent their next three weeks together and didn't bother each other at all. I kept an eye on their stitches and there was no problem. My vet used the dissolving stitches and in such a way that I never even saw them. Rats are spectacular healers and recover extremely quickly. I would suggest the surgery instead of trying something no one knows if it'll work and won't hurt the rat in the process.


The only reason I would ask her about the calcium chloride method is that I ran into a couple papers on it that made it seem like a pretty good choice especially in a young rat. It's used pretty commonly in other countries, http://www.calciumchloridecastration.com/faq-chemical-castration-stray-dogs-feral-cats/



Gribouilli said:


> I actually got a discount when I did two rats at once instead of just one. It was $100 for 1 rat, but only $130 for 2 rats


Interesting, my vet does have other multipet discounts, so, maybe neuter is one of them. I've just never had more than one pet to neuter at a time, so never thought to ask.


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## schnebbles (Nov 11, 2015)

I wanted rats so bad (I work at a pet store) and my husband finally said ok. I got one, then another because I know they need company. To be honest, they aren't what I expected. i wish I had a bigger cage but I'm short on room, maybe someday. I have Petco Rat Manor for 2 girls. I feel like it's crowded with stuff. 

My one rat is very shy, not mean or anything, just shy. Likes to be down my shirt all the time or hiding. I don't really love her down my shirt all the time because of her toenails. The other one is ms. explore everything, she won't sit still to be held at all. I had ideas of them riding on my shoulder but this isn't what they want to do. I like them but kind of wish I hadn't gotten them, even after all of my reading before I did. I think it's going to depend on the rats you end up with and what you want out of them. 

I've seen sweeter ones at work than the ones I got. The shy one I got because I liked her coloring. My 2nd one had babies at work and I didn't want her to be snake food so I got her. She wasn't my choice on color or anything (hooded) but she's nice and I feel like I saved her 

They are out on the floor right now playing, I think they are enjoying themselves! One hid under my fish tank cabinet all night which doesn't make me happy because I know she was peeing and I can't get there to clean it.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> with screwed up animals and have the right balance of compassion and crazy to do it. And these people should be encouraged


I think I might qualify. My aunt asked me to take her cat that no one could get close to. She was bottle raised by my cousin. Although she meant well, she wouldn't let the other cats around the her as a kitten. As a result, she grew up very unsocialized. Anyone that came close would get bit, hard!

The first time she tried to bite me, I rammed my finger down her throat. She has not tried to bite me one time since then. That was 8 years ago. She is now a sweet, cuddly cat that loves to be pet.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> I think I might qualify. My aunt asked me to take her cat that no one could get close to. She was bottle raised by my cousin. Although she meant well, she wouldn't let the other cats around the her as a kitten. As a result, she grew up very unsocialized. Anyone that came close would get bit, hard!The first time she tried to bite me, I rammed my finger down her throat. She has not tried to bite me one time since then. That was 8 years ago. She is now a sweet, cuddly cat that loves to be pet.


Smart kitty, and same for you


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's my pleasure to help people fix screwed up rats they adopted not knowing better or good rats that go antisocial for whatever reason as well as those rare people that for whatever reason seem to enjoy the challenge of fixing screwed up rats.

But it is likewise important for people to understand that fixing a screwed up rat is no walk in the park, nor is it fun... It's almost literally the definition of "no good deed goes unpunished". 
For anyone reading this thread... I know if you are on this site you most likely love rats or want a rat to love you... You love animals so you have a big heart and a lot of compassion... But you have to be realistic too. Adopting a friendly and well adjusted rat will be fun and rewarding almost right from the start, you will still face many challenges as your socialize your new friend, but it will be a painless learning experience and it will be overall enjoyable and rewarding. You can take a normal rat and make it an amazing family member.. And for every rat you adopt there will be one more happy rat in a good home.

I met a tiger trainer once... so I know tigers can be socialized and trained. But for most people, friendly kittens are the way to go if you love cats. If you really believe that you are meant to take on challenging, screwed up rats, you should still start out with a few normal friendly ones first. There's a lot a new rat owner needs to learn and it's best learned working and living with a well socialized rat buddy. Then once you are really good at understanding and handling rats and you still want to start your own rat rescue and fix aggressive and biting rats at least you will be more ready and know what you are getting in to. 

We rescued our truly amazing Fuzzy Rat from a feeder bin, in the end she died of mammary tumors and had some pretty crappy genetics, but she also had the most beautiful mind and heart I've even known... I'm all about rescuing rats in need... I think every rat needs a good forever home. Sure we could have left her in the bin and rescued a screwed up rat instead of her, and maybe fixed it and Fuzzy Rat would have been fed to a snake... In what world would that make sense? Maybe the next person who had more experience than I did at the time did rescue the most screwed up rat and maybe fixed it, and honestly I hope so... but I did what was right for me, my 5 year old daughter and for a rat in desperate need.

Be compassionate... but temper compassion with good judgment, you really can't go wrong adopting a rat you can handle.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I don't think I could jam my finger inside a biting rats mouth. It wouldn't fit.;D


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I usually just say "NO!" and/or touch their nose when rats bite.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I've only been bit once by a super unsocialized, and probably abused rat. Yes, I did know she was like that when I got her. I adopted her because she was in a feeder bin and I seriously doubt anyone would have chanced her as a pet. I refused to leave her knowing she would end up being snake food, either alive or frozen.

And _NO, I DID NOT_ adopt her because I thought it would be fun or that I would enjoy the challenge. I've always been good with terrified animals, so I wasn't especially concerned about being able to earn her trust. If I couldn't, I was okay with the idea of having a pet I would never be able to love on or have fun with.

That was before I joined this forum.

I take the blame for being bit. I thought she was about to be seriously hurt, so I quickly grabbed her and held on tight. It scared her and she bit me. She hasn't bit me since then. With immersion training coupled with trust training, mostly following my gut and a lot of patience, she is coming along nicely. The last few nights now, she's jumped up on my chest to ask for treats. She is beginning to get used to me petting her outside of the cage and mostly okay if I pet her inside the cage. 

I would never suggest anyone get a rat the way that I did. I went into rats completely ignorant of the things I now know since joining this forum. Like I said earlier in my first post to this thread, I got _just happened to get lucky_. The first rat I took home was never scared of me. She was from a feeder bin. I just assumed that all rats are like she is and that if one isn't, they were probably abused or neglected.

If my first rat was like my third, I might have assumed that all rats were terrified. But I also would have been on the internet finding out about rats. 

I realize that I'm quite the odd-ball when it comes to animals. Most people don't have the patience or ability to bother with the abused one. They feel sorry for the animal, but don't have the desire to get through to it. As of right now, I've always been able to earn the trust of an animal. Even the wild animals. Not saying it won't happen. 

What I DO enjoy about taking on the hard case is how it feels when an animal that trusted NO ONE trusts me completely. That's one of the best feelings on earth. That's how I felt the first night Tess jumped up on me for treats. If she'd only done it one time, I would have been encouraged. But when she did it repeatedly, even staying there while I reached for another treat......I just can't begin to describe how wonderful that feels. I've had that feeling so many times, I just don't worry about it happening anymore. 

I wish everyone could have the experiences I've had with these kind of animals. I don't know if I'm truly odd in that I've had so much success, or that I'm just willing and have the desire to help them.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Jenniferinfl said:


> Since you also worked in an animal shelter, here's another thing that drives me crazy, the phrase, "I could never work in an animal shelter, I just love animals too much."
> 
> Ah, the flashbacks.. lol
> 
> ...





catty-ratty said:


> Please forgive me for not reading your entire previous post. I'm still stinging from my job with shelters and animals. I quit about 2 months ago now. If I never hear another horror story or ridiculous excuse for giving up a pet, I will be just fine with that.


I braced myself and read your post. 

First, I didn't work at a shelter. I won't go into details of what I did do. What I did was more of a marketing job for various shelters and rescues around the whole state of Texas.

Most of my job was interacting with the public in public places. I met and talked to all kinds of people. And people who probably don't have any right to be alive. When the jerks started to tell me their sick stories about what they like to do to animals. I had my way of immediately shutting them up. When animal lover felt the need to share a horror story, I would always politely tell them, "Please don't tell me anymore. I hear enough stories as it is. I have had to leave this table and cry before coming back. I can't help animals if I'm away from the table."

To be honest, I was expecting to hear more horror stories I hadn't already heard. I've heard much worse than the things you talked about. My skin is thick enough to deal with the things you talked about with out getting overly upset. 

For the record, and here's where some people just don't understand my point of view, but you will, I don't think the kinder thing to do for seriously screwed up dogs is to keep them alive. There used to be a truly 'No Kill Shelter' where I live. The general public doesn't realize that sometimes the 'No Kill Shelters' that actually don't kill animals can actually do more harm to an animal than the neglectful owner or kill shelter.

They had a dog there that had been there for so long, he went 'kennel' crazy. He started out being a dog that would make a great pet. But year after year went by and he didn't get adopted. He lived the majority of life in a kennel and went crazy. I think that is crueler than euthanizing an animal. I believe in quality of life, not quantity. If an animal if so neglected and abused, to the point that it's literally lost its mind, then putting it out of its misery is the kinder thing to do.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

schnebbles said:


> I wanted rats so bad (I work at a pet store) and my husband finally said ok. I got one, then another because I know they need company. To be honest, they aren't what I expected. i wish I had a bigger cage but I'm short on room, maybe someday. I have Petco Rat Manor for 2 girls. I feel like it's crowded with stuff.
> 
> My one rat is very shy, not mean or anything, just shy. Likes to be down my shirt all the time or hiding. I don't really love her down my shirt all the time because of her toenails. The other one is ms. explore everything, she won't sit still to be held at all. I had ideas of them riding on my shoulder but this isn't what they want to do. I like them but kind of wish I hadn't gotten them, even after all of my reading before I did. I think it's going to depend on the rats you end up with and what you want out of them.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm afraid of. All I'm really hoping for is friendlier than the gerbils, but, they were pretty cool. Oh well, won't know until I get them. Spouse already promised we could get kiddo more gerbils if the rats are a total fail since these are supposed to be her pets. I'll keep them for life regardless, I just really hope it works out. 

Got the critter nation in and put together yesterday. Need to do a couple more things with it, but, it's built anyhow.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Since they are going to be your daughter pets it is even more important that you get loving, well socialized rats. I believe you said that you found a great breeder, and weren't getting pet store rats. Correct?


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## Nieve5552 (May 20, 2014)

Great post, really enjoyed reading it  Im jealous that you've got to have so much experience with such a variety of animals.. So far I've only had tropical fish, chickens, cats and rats. 

I currently have 4 intact male rats, two are 2 years old and the other two are 5 months old. They're two sets of brothers, the older ones I got from a rat rescue when they were 3 months old and the younger ones are from a pet store (no feeders in this country, so pet store rats are generally health and raised to be pets). Since I've been at university for the last few years I have house-mates, so my rats live in my room. The rats are mostly litter-trained with a corner litter tray, but they do pee outside the tray. The cage doesnt smell as long as I clean regularly, there are 5 levels in the cage and the bottom one is the only one with substrate (ground up coconut husk bedding). Ive got a litter tray on the bottom level with recycled paper pellets and another litter tray on the 3rd level, they're used often. 
Out of my older 2 rats, only one marks me and hard surfaces during playtime, the other one never marked. My two younger rats are old enough to be starting to mark but I havent seen them consistently mark yet, so Im thinking maybe they arent the marking type. 
My males havent really been super cuddly as they've always been super energetic! During playtime they just go exploring on the floor and run around everywhere when they get excited, the older ones have slowed down since a few months ago though. But they've perked up since the younger ones moved in with them. Even though theyre not super into cuddling and staying still, they do love jumping on me and running around on me and resting on my shoulder when Im sitting on the floor. They are attention-seekers and generally seem to love people, when I stand up and walk around they follow me and run around my feet trying to climb up my legs. 

As everyones already said I think you'd love rats, but they do require quite a bit of maintenance time. Regular cleaning everyday is needed, plus a deeper clean every week or two weeks depending on how many rats you have. They need to be let out of the cage for play at least 1 hour a day, a lot of people on this forum recommend more than 1 hour. Some rats can come with quite a bit of health problems but apart from mild respiratory infections I havent had a serious health problem yet, lucky me. 
I'd really recommend rats, they are domesticated so 'normal' rats generally innately like people and enjoy interacting with us. I used Rat Daddy's immersion method with my rats and that worked well, as long as the rats are used to you and are friendly you shouldnt have much behavioural problems. My rats have never bitten me, my room isnt perfectly rat proofed as they are able to jump on some furniture so even when I quickly grab them off the furniture they never try to bite. When they pick up some mysterious stuff off the floor to nibble on I can grab them, flip them on their backs and shove my fingers in their mouths to take it off them they still dont ever bite. Sometimes when I hand them food that they go crazy for they snatch it out of my hands and sometimes mistake my finger for the food, but even in these situations it hasnt even come close to a nip and they give my finger a couple of licks as if to say sorry before taking the food ;D

They're just super cute animals, perfect pets as long as they're 'normal' without behavioural problems from being neglected. I did a lot of research before getting my rats, and they are a little different from what I initially expected and wished for (wanted indoor shoulder rats, but my rats never sit patiently long enough on my shoulder haha) but at the same time, they're also better pets than I expected them to be. They all have different personalities (personalities are more pronounced in species with higher level of intelligence) so very entertaining to watch and play with. 

So I'd really recommend them, as long as you have enough time everyday to cater to their needs, and enough funds to manage any health problems that may pop up (although funds dont seem to be a problem for you ). I hope you make a good choice and enjoy your rats if you do end up getting them!


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Nieve5552 said:


> Great post, really enjoyed reading it  Im jealous that you've got to have so much experience with such a variety of animals.. So far I've only had tropical fish, chickens, cats and rats.
> 
> I currently have 4 intact male rats, two are 2 years old and the other two are 5 months old. They're two sets of brothers, the older ones I got from a rat rescue when they were 3 months old and the younger ones are from a pet store (no feeders in this country, so pet store rats are generally health and raised to be pets). Since I've been at university for the last few years I have house-mates, so my rats live in my room. The rats are mostly litter-trained with a corner litter tray, but they do pee outside the tray. The cage doesnt smell as long as I clean regularly, there are 5 levels in the cage and the bottom one is the only one with substrate (ground up coconut husk bedding). Ive got a litter tray on the bottom level with recycled paper pellets and another litter tray on the 3rd level, they're used often.
> Out of my older 2 rats, only one marks me and hard surfaces during playtime, the other one never marked. My two younger rats are old enough to be starting to mark but I havent seen them consistently mark yet, so Im thinking maybe they arent the marking type.
> ...


Thank you, I'm hoping mine will work out like yours.


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## Jenniferinfl (Mar 25, 2016)

Here is the first attempt at the upper level. There will be a 3" deep tray underneath with aspen to cushion any falls. Still a work in progress, looks cuter in person, but, prepaid cellphone camera isn't awesome.  









The birch branches at the bottom are going to be mounted with hanger bolts to the corners of the cage for more climbing, but, my drill battery is dead. Probably will also make some hammocks, finally dug out sewing machine and made a couple fleece tunnels. My experiment with eyelets didn't go great, think I bought the wrong ones. I may just make fabric loops and if they chew them I'll just sew a new one.


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