# How intense should roughhousing be when playing with your rat?



## ohmychunty (Apr 15, 2014)

My younger rat Ester loves to play with my hand when I do finger-wrestling with her (using my index & middle finger as legs/arms).

Sometimes our wrestling gets pretty intense and recently, I observed something new while we were in a heated match. She was playing along normally except her fur puffed up all over her body. I hear that this can be a sign of fear in rats (the need to be visually larger to defend themselves), but because she didn't squeak or bite through my skin (she was still doing play bites, though) we just kept on playing.

I was wondering if anybody might suggest that seeing her fur puff up should be the threshold of the intensity of our roughhousing? It only happened once. What do you think?

What are the limits that you go to when you're physically engaged with your ratties? Do you have definite NO behaviors or other strict rules? Is play time structured?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Girl rat especially like to play when they are young. The part wild girl we had would launch herself into the air at my face from my desk and lay several mock bites on me before I could swat her away. In a certain way she was different than any other rat I played with because she would fight very fiercely and mock bite in rapid succession rather than scoring on her target one mock bite at a time.. She was very frightening until you realized it was only play... 

When she grew up she tore up my neighbors hand, it wasn't play anymore and even the local feral cats were afraid of her and stayed clear of our house for the summer she lived outdoors. 
I only got bit once, and it was when I got my hand in between her and a mouse she intended to kill in the last split second... I don't know if it was a mistake or not, but she tore out a chunk of my palm... It definitely was not play.

On the other hand, I let my then 5 year old daughter play with her unsupervised, she loved my daughter and took a great deal of kid abuse... No matter how vicious she could get, she never confused play with real aggression. Once my daughter understood she wasn't going to get bitten, she wasn't afraid of our rat any more... and after that rat all other rats we owned have been rather tame...

Max was never one to play fight, she prefers to be chased.... she'll pop out and jump on us and then when we grab her she's squirm and struggle to escape and lead us a merry chase as she dives for her safe place... Then she's come back out and repeat the game. When she was little she would dash about so wildly she would slam herself into things during her frantic escapes.... Just like our part wild rat was only playing make believe attack, Max played make believe escape. 

Young rats play pretend games, some might say it prepares them for life, other's might say it's instinct that goes unfulfilled in their cozy human homes.... I can't say for sure, but I've never seen a rat that couldn't tell between play and the real thing... When I play fight, I do make a point of winning the matches, just to be on the safe side in case the rat is sizing me up for the real thing later on in life... 

So, yes, some rats really get into mock combat, and they make it look very real, and some get really extreme to the point of being frightening... I told my daughter that if our part wild rat got too scary she should just grab her with both hands and give her a big hug... that always worked to finally end the fight and calm her down. 

Yes, it's lead to my daughter manhandling all her rats but to be honest they seem to love her for it. And I suppose if a vicious part wild rat can tell the difference between extreme play and a real combat situation, after having lived outdoors for a summer and fighting real life or death battles, I'd say most pet rats should be able to not confuse the two either.

Some rats might have eye sight issues and maybe there are rats that could go overboard and break your skin, but your not likely to really get bitten seriously.. If you do get nipped treat it as you would any intentional attack and severely discourage biting... Otherwise...

Have fun and play hard.


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## ohmychunty (Apr 15, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> ...she prefers to be chased.... she'll pop out and jump on us and then when we grab her she's squirm and struggle to escape and lead us a merry chase as she dives for her safe place... Then she's come back out and repeat the game.


Haha, Tesla loves to do this! She is becoming more outgoing but doesn't really like to wrestle.. just like Max!




Rat Daddy said:


> When I play fight, I do make a point of winning the matches, just to be on the safe side in case the rat is sizing me up for the real thing later on in life...



I have another question about "winning"... in the case of the rough rattie I have (Ester), I will often pin her down on her back to show that I "win" the match but she doesn't normally "act like she lost" or that I won. She'll stop squirming for a little bit, look at me like she's innocent, then flip over and start again. If she flips over and breaks free, doesn't that give her the message that she's the winner? She often squeaks when I hold her down too long, or too often...


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## ohmychunty (Apr 15, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> Otherwise...
> 
> Have fun and play hard.


Oh, we do!! Haha....


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In general, winning doesn't necessarily mean overwhelming your rat, basically you just have to keep the upper hand and not let yourself get chased off... Imagine your wrestling someone much smaller than you, someone who can't lift you or move you, you really don't need to hurt them or shame them to prove your point. You can let them have their fun and perhaps push you around a bit before you retake the advantage... 

Remember it's always play before it's combat... Like when puppies or lion cubs fight, sure the strongest one always wins, but no one really loses because everyone has fun. Remember the operative word in play fight is play. So play winner and play loser are still having fun... Sure you don't want to come off as a weak opponent but neither does your rat, and you are building mutual respect as well as having fun... But if it stops being fun, your rat won't play with you any more and you'll miss the action... Once a rat stops play fighting this time doesn't come back, the time has passed and it's just a memory... 

I miss the play fights I've had with each of our rat pups. Rats can grow up to be so serious.


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## ohmychunty (Apr 15, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> So play winner and play loser are still having fun... Sure you don't want to come off as a weak opponent but neither does your rat, and you are building mutual respect as well as having fun... But if it stops being fun, your rat won't play with you any more and you'll miss the action... Once a rat stops play fighting this time doesn't come back, the time has passed and it's just a memory...
> 
> I miss the play fights I've had with each of our rat pups. Rats can grow up to be so serious.



Aww... I looked Ester in the eyes after I read that and I was like... "Noooo, baby, you're still gonna play right!?!" *tears*

We haven't been in too much of a playing mood recently, it seems. Not rough housing anyway. Hope her phase isn't over -- seems so soon!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I hope your play fights haven't ended yet, but that's how it works... one day it's all about mock combat and the next it's over.... Like little kids shed their favorite toys... My daughter is 8 years old and reading Harry Potter books now, the closets are full of dolls, stuffed animals, ride on toys and things that blink, sing and spin, some still have working batteries, all are relics from an earlier time when they were precious and cherished. 

One day your rat pups just outgrow play fighting, they become rats... and life becomes more serious for them... Life is less about exploring and having fun and more about survival and nest building and comfort. Most will still play with you but there's something more grown up about their personality. They become more like adult friends and less like your kids. Then one day they change again and become even more serious and much more cautious and they are very much like middle age adults taking on rolls of parent like behavior (overcautious and protective), and if you are really lucky they become old gentlemen or crones... there's hardly any play anymore, but they do appreciate affection... Even the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat stopped climbing trees and jumping in the lake, she slept a lot and started fading in and out having senior moments like old people do. In the end she was very much like a grandparent; loving and sweet and a bit dottery... It was in fact hard for me to recall the precocious pup she was without feeling sad... I put her up in her favorite tree and instead of clambering up to the highest branches, she just crawled to a fork in a low branch and fell asleep and I had to stay underneath so she wouldn't fall. As a pup she chased around the playground with the little kids almost getting herself killed under their little feet; as an old lady she lay next to me on the bench watching the kids play and occasionally napping in the warm breeze. But then I'm older too and I was sitting on the bench too. There was a time very long ago when I would have been chasing the other kids around the playground too...

Rats go through the same life stages as humans do, they just do it in fast forward. Max our current rat, still plays sometimes, but she's becoming a very serious rat. Mostly she does her work, keeps to herself and has little tolerance for foolishness. If I put her down outside the house she doesn't go exploring any more, she just goes to the front door and waits to be let inside. At 10 months old she's an adult rat with a serious outlook on the world. The playful pup that challenged my fingers is long gone... Now it's all about getting to where she wants to go and less about the journey... sound familiar?

And yes, it always seems too soon... I miss my little daughter riding around the house on her toy horse or lion and peddling her little car around the back yard, and I miss Fuzzy Rat chasing us around the soccer field. But my daughter sits quietly and reads for hours instead of playing with me and Fuzzy Rat has been a very fond memory for almost a year now... All I can say is enjoy it while it lasts. You blink and today becomes yesterday. And yesterday only lives in your memories... On the up side... Fluffy was followed by Curly and then Amelia and Fuzzy Rat made room for Max. One rat makes room in her cage and your heart for another that needs the space. And it all starts all over again... 

Enjoy the time you have with each rat, love them and be loved... you can't stop the clock. Time and rats move on, as do we in our own time.


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## ilovescience (May 14, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> The part wild girl we had would launch herself into the air at my face from my desk and lay several mock bites on me before I could swat her away.


LOOOL!! You felt comfortable letting your daughter play with Fuzzy Rat even tho her mock-biting initially frightened you? Granted, I'm assuming this was after you realized it was just play.. but if it was frightening enough for you initially, wouldn't you be nervous about Fuzzy Rat mock-biting the soft fleshy hands of a 5 yr old? Or did she know not to bite your daughter..? 




Rat Daddy said:


> When she was little she would dash about so wildly she would slam herself into things during her frantic escapes


I laugh so hard when my babies do this. Though, in all honesty, sometimes it makes me wonder (and fret) - slamming into things while attempting a frantic escape sounds like something you do when you're terrified, and I get nervous that I'm repeatedly terrorizing my girls =\





Rat Daddy said:


> And I suppose if a vicious part wild rat can tell the difference between extreme play and a real combat situation, after having lived outdoors for a summer and fighting real life or death battles, I'd say most pet rats should be able to not confuse the two either.


Wouldn't it be the opposite? Wild rats have real-fights to compare to, just like having a hand-tearing experience to help realize that biting during play is just that. Pet rats don't (generally) have exposure to real combat situations..




Rat Daddy said:


> Some rats might have eye sight issues and maybe there are rats that could go overboard and break your skin, but your not likely to really get bitten seriously.. If you do get nipped treat it as you would any intentional attack and severely discourage biting...


How would you severely discourage biting without overwhelming your rat? When it comes to play-fight nipping/biting, would you say you should err on the side of caution as opposed to toughing it out..? I've rather tough hands from working in the fast food industry and soaking my hands in dishwater or sanitizer for the majority of my day.. so nibbles don't bother me. Mock-bites also don't bother me. Basil is ruby-eyed (and I have a feeling her eyesight is closer to that of a red-eyed than a black-eyed).. and she's recently engaged me in mock-fights. I'm seriously STOKED, as she's still considerably skittish around me.. but I noticed her mock-bites are getting progressively fiercer - not enough to draw blood (again, my hands are calloused and thick-skinned), but hard enough that I can now feel the zing long after the mock-battles. I'm just anxious about curving potential aggressive behavior >.<




Rat Daddy said:


> You can let them have their fun and perhaps push you around a bit before you retake the advantage...
> 
> I miss the play fights I've had with each of our rat pups. Rats can grow up to be so serious.


How would you retake the advantage while still maintaining a fun atmosphere? Sorry for the horrendous ignorance.. I only have a sister and rough-housing is not really my area of expertise.

OMG. That last bit is so endearing <3 <3




Rat Daddy said:


> Max our current rat, still plays sometimes, but she's becoming a very serious rat. Mostly she does her work, keeps to herself and has little tolerance for foolishness.


LOOOOL!!!! I *LOVE* reading about Fuzzy Rat and Max and all your ratties..


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually our part wild rat was Fluffy who preceded Fuzzy Rat. Man was I ill prepared for that surprise! She was "donated" to the pet shop as part of an accidental litter... supposedly. She didn't look half wild so she wasn't a likely a first cross although almost anything can happen with rat genetics. Various breeders used that pet shop to dump their culls and I'm thinking she was created on purpose as some kind of misguided improve the strain idea. But never-the-less she was a very freaky rat. 

One evening my daughter came in with tears in her eyes saying she was afraid of Fluffy, I explained to her Fluffy was only playing and she wouldn't really bite her... In fact she never did... She let my daughter get away with anything. You should have seen Fluffy stuffed into barbie formal ware.... All of our rats have a very special relationship with my daughter... I do the feeding and most of the handling and they love her to pieces... go figure...

To answer another question... when my part wild went too over the top, I'd ignore the mock attacks and I'd wrestle her down and skritch her belly... and she would dash off... and come back in friendly, non-combat mode. Battle won by the human...

As to using more severe discipline,,, there's a point where rats aren't playing anymore. They are serious, it's hard to explain but you know it when you see it, or rather feel it. They bite hard and for real and it hurts and usually it bleeds. This isn't a game and it isn't fun and most rats never attack their humans so it's really very rare, but when it happens it's important to take the steps to make sure your rat never does it again. And yes there's a line between correcting an aggressive rat and animal abuse. Fluffy mock chomping on my nose wasn't real aggression that was just play, I basically just swatted her off my face. When she tore up my neighbor's hand and blood was soaking through a bath towel, that pretty much was what it looked like when she was seriously upset. I got a chunk of my palm removed when I blocked her from trying to kill a mouse I was holding and Fuzzy Rat got her throat pierced on either side of her trachea for being too dominant and nipping Fluffy in the rear. She let Fuzzy Rat power groom most of the hair off her rump, but when Fuzzy Rat bit her, she went right for the throat. Amazingly she didn't kill Fuzzy Rat, but that was the very last time the two rats ever quarreled. Fuzzy Rat was not stupid. As to correcting bad behavior, I didn't even think about it. As soon as she chomped into the palm of my hand I flung her into the far wall in the room, somewhere between hitting the wall and sliding down to the floor she realized just what a gawd awful idea biting me was and as soon as she hit the floor she came to me and apologized. Yup she was sitting right there on my shoulder as I was stopping the bleeding and washing out the wound. She didn't just bite, she ripped out a piece of flesh.

To be very clear, Fluffy was never "aggressive", she was actually rather easygoing for such a high strung animal, but when she lost it someone got usually hurt. 

As to my comment about if a wild or part rat can learn to control itself a domestic should, it goes to the flip of the switch temper some wild type rats have. When they lose it, they turn into a ball of fangs and claws... domestic rats don't usually have this kind of temperament. I think someone did a study where a domestic rat usually bites only once while a wild rat bites over and over as fast as it can... my experience seeing my neighbor's hand wrapped in a bloody bath towel would tend to confirm this. I also once pulled Fluffy out from a pile of towels where she was napping and she jumped up and turned into a ball of fury, I just dropped her and backed away, after a few seconds she calmed down and was actually perfectly friendly again... I never snatched her from anyplace ever again... I talked to her calmly and invited her to come to my hand which usually worked a treat. Only my daughter was allowed to manhandle that rat and even then I always told her to be gentle and talk before touching to avoid mistakes. Despite her tendency to be vicious, Fluffy was a very smart and loving rat. Just not the kind of rat you might introduce a second grade class to.

Just to be clear, I don't recommend tossing rats against walls, that was a reflex... I tend to toss things that chomp into me... Bops, swats and pins are doable with love as are strong vocalizations to accompany them as in NO BITING. When a rat isn't up to her gums in the palm of your hand it's easier to determine what level of correction should make a sufficient unpleasant and immediate impact without actually hurting your rat. Rats understand getting bopped or swatted. In the wild when a wild rat chomps on the wrong alpha rat, bad things happen too. In fact your not ever going to the kind of thins to your rat than another rat might.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Could I ask, what is roughhousing? and is there a reason you do this? lmao!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Some rats, especially young ones like to play rough. They chase around an mock attack you... And why do it...? Because it's a blast for you and your rat(s)!.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> Some rats, especially young ones like to play rough. They chase around an mock attack you... And why do it...? Because it's a blast for you and your rat(s)!.


 haha! oh, and I'm sure that's what mine does, but sometimes he can bite a little hard and puff up but never draw blood, is that playing rough? sorry im a little new to these things cos I never knew what it was


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

That sounds about right. Young rats enjoy mock battles where they behave very much like a ferocious rat engaged in mortal combat. But the bites are mock bites and should never hurt. It's like little boys play war games or cowboy games or video games, but they generally don't use real bullets. When you see your kid packing your Glock 17 and 5 mags of spare ammo, instead of lunch, in their backpack before going to school or your rat hurts when you play with him, you should take immediate measures to prevent the situation from going out of control, but otherwise it's normal and healthy for kids and rats to play aggressive games.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

yeah I understand you now, so after all the fuss I've made about my rat being aggressive he isn't, he will lick me afterwards if he play bites lol.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yup Aimleigh, that's about it... young rats love play fighting, our part wild girl was downright terrifying, but as soon as I realized she had bitten me a dozen times and I wasn't bleeding of hurt I realized it was just a game. After having her, all of my other rat battles were tame in comparison. Mostly my rats just attack my fingers or hand, my part wild was the only one that ever went for my face. Remember if it hurts stop it immediately, if not just play along and have fun. It's great for socialization and bonding for both of you.


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## aimleigh (Feb 7, 2014)

Omg thats made me feel so much better! Thanks so much RatDaddy! Yeah mine doesn't bite anywhere else just my hand. Aw my boy wants to play lol


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