# Starting immersion



## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm just working with Sebastian right now because I can't get Octavian out of his cage.

I brought him into the bathroom and picked him up and so far he hasn't left to explore. He's crawling inside of of my robe and has pooped on me several times. He's acting scared and unsure so I'm letting him hide inside of my robe and I keep petting him and talking to him and calling him by name. Btw he's behind me in the back of my robe and I have to reach behind me to pet him. Hes making random little chattering noises. Hes switching between checking out my hand and completely ignoring me. But at least his little nails aren't hurting me, it actually feels kind of good 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That's actually good. Except for you being pooped on. But manners come with time. Most often, with shy rats it's best to plop them down the front of your hoodie and settle in for a movie or two. You scratch them some, treat them but otherwise show them that you aren't going to eat them and that you might be kinda interesting and fun


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It sounds like a great start. Sometimes shy rats actually take longer than aggressive rats, but they are worth it. Be gentle and reassuring and engaging, when they feel a little more confident try to be a little bit playful... but immersion is all about communication. It's like a dance, you lead a little and your rat reacts and you respond in the direction your rat takes you, guiding the progress ever so gently... Immersion is the fastest socialization method, but there's no need to rush or push too hard. Enjoy the experience.


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks. I started again today with both of them and Sebastian made progress within like 10 minutes, and now he's crawling all over me and all through my robe like a maze. He'll stick his nose out the end of my armhole and I'll hold him up to my face and he'll hold his nose up to mine. I even introduced my bf and dog into the room and they are getting along great. He's willingly taking treats from both of us and isn't so skittish. I think he even likes all my kisses. When he wonders off he usually comes back quickly and is spending most of his time on me and is doing quite a bit of bruxing.

Octavian on the other hand is still hiding inside my robe. He almost came out once but I think he ran back because of the dog although when I introduced them both to the dog yesterday neither of them were really scared nor interested. At least he's hiding behind me in my robe instead of behind the toilet, right?


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## LauraSFantasy (Jan 17, 2014)

Hey! I just wanted to share a tidbit that helped my shy rat. Early on I got my hand wet and stuck it inside the cage, and all three of mine, even the super shy one who wouldn't let me pick her up at the time, came and licked my hand dry. And afterward, they all seemed a lot more comfortable with me. Maybe it's a bonding thing for them? Try it out!


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks! I'll try that. Here's a video of Sebastian sitting on my feet then running up my leg
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202015132153054


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

They are continually getting better. Sebastian likes to crawl on my face/head and he even... bit my tooth? Haha. He tried being an acrobat and jumping onto the plastic drawers I have by the toilet and fell into the water bowl poor guy, it was funny though.

Octavian is doing a little better. He will crawl under me and get close enough to my hand to nip it. At times he even will run around a bit like Sebastian does but he won't crawl on me, just behind me. Neither of them like being picked up although sometimes Sebastian will crawl into my hand and let me move them.

They are hard to get out of their cage because they hide when I put my hand in it, but an hour ago when I put them back they actually came to the door and looked at me/sniffed it instead of hiding or plain ignoring me which I am glad. I'm hoping that they will start coming to the door themselves so I don't have to lift them out of the cage which they don't like.

They're also getting along with my dog and might even like him? 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm thinking this might be the first reported immersion that involves a dog. Aside from whatever caution that might be appropriate when introducing rats to dogs.... I suspect that it all goes towards building a mixed species family. 

I do love innovation. Since Fuzzy Rat introduced us to immersion, which in itself is a twist, I mean a rat teaching humans might seem a little backwards to some old schoolers... people have added all kinds of interesting ways of flavoring the process to their own needs, and personalities. I suppose it goes to the robustness of the theory. Love and communication as a basis for bonding really is pretty hard to screw up... and once again the knowledge base grows.

Congrats on your progress and keep us posted...


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

Since I live in an apartment, and as soon as I brought my boyfriend into the bathroom with me and the rats my dog started to cry loudly and scratch at the door, I don't want to leave him out there to annoy the neighbors. They've already told me they can hear him whimpering if we leave him home alone.

Of the 8 or so hours that I've had them out in the bathroom the dogs probably been in there for 5 or 6. They don't do anything different when the dog is in there than when he isn't. In fact they even nibble on his toes like they sometimes do to my fingers and they seem to warm up faster to him.

He is part of the family too and has been for 7 years. He's a small 10 pound chi-pin and I think if anything bad would have happened it probably would have already. Of course I don't leave them unsupervised, either. I feel like I'm sitting in a bathroom with 3 little dogs 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yup, like playing with 3 dogs. Rats really are big animals in a small package. 

My daughter is presently working on making a pattern for a winter jacket for Max with paper and scissors..... Max is smart enough to be hiding... Kid with scissors, rat with tail... tell me who is smarter?


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## Urithrand (Feb 12, 2008)

Lovely to hear that things are going well with you TP 

Clearly I use Facebook too much. I keep trying to "like" things


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

Thank you!

I have no issues believing that rats are much smarter animals than people give them credit for, even before I had any. I remember watching a show a very long time ago about how they trained rats (I don't know exactly what kind but they were larger than domestic rats) to sniff out mines because they didn't weigh enough to set them off. I also hold animals to the same standard as humans - I do strongly believe that all animals are intelligent and have feelings beyond what most people understand and I think that humans generally have big egos and place themselves higher than animals. I am a vegetarian and have spent a lot of my 18 years learning about animals on my own and volunteering at shelters as well as owning my own pets.

When I'm sitting in the bathroom and a bit of my skin is showing in the back and one of my rats come up to sniff me, I actually mistake them for my dog sometimes xD The way they sniff everything especially with their little whiskers reminds me a lot of dogs. I tell people they are like miniature dogs but cleaner and they have "hands" so they can do cooler tricks  and they're smarter than my dog, although some might argue that it's only MY dog. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed 

By the way I do photography and got a couple shots of Sebastian:


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm so proud of them. Both of them actually come to the door when I open it now or approach the cage (maybe not every single time but usually I don't have to wait long). Before they would hide in their house and not come out until I closed the cage door. They will even attempt to crawl out now when I open the door. That might not be a great thing for those times I need to adjust something in the cage but don't want them to jump out... But now I don't have to fight with them to get them to come out.

Sebastian doesn't necessarily love when I pick him up but he seems to mind a lot less, now, and he doesn't mind if he's the one who crawls into my hands. Octavian on the other hand does not seem scared of me but he doesn't want a lot to do with me either. Sebastian crawls all over me and at time Octavian will come towards me sometimes but spends most of his time either preening himself in the corner or trying to get back into the cage. But when I opened the door he just chewed on the bars instead of going into the cage so I don't know what's up with him.

I really feel like Sebastian is actually wanting my attention, now. I like to wear my robe when I play with them because he will run inside my robe in and out of my sleeves. Everytime he sticks his head out of my sleeve I pull him up to my face, give him a kiss on the forehead and then put my arm back down, he'll run out and across my lap and then get inside my robe again by my chest.

I put Octavian in my robe and he'll run full circle around me (I tighten the rope around my waist so they don't fall out of the bottom) and stick his head out of the front of my robe and I hold my hand in front of him and he goes back in and runs another full circle, but he avoids coming out if my hand is in the way. But the first time I did this with either of them they sat behind me and didn't move.

They both seem to be bruxing a lot (if I am understanding what bruxing is) during this time so...

Oh btw I find it strange that Octavian is the one who is less shy while in the cage. Like if I reach in and give them food, Sebastian takes it and runs while Octavian sits there right by my hand and eats it. 0.o


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## Urithrand (Feb 12, 2008)

Sounds to me like Octavian is just a little shy. He's clearly comfortable with you enough to eat from your hand, and in the cage is usually the time when rats are most defensive so if he's comfortable with you there then I'd say he's doing just fine! Have you tried having some alone time with Octavian? If Sebastian is the more dominant of the two then it might make Oct a little more reserved when they're together


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

Okay... I've had my boys for 3 weeks now. They are doing so good. I can walk around with them in my robe and they both squeeze into one sleeve and look out so they can see what's going on. They love to crawl all over me. Octavian is still the less cuddly of the two, as he's more likely to run and play and check in with me every once in a while whereas Sebastian doesn't leave my side for long. Sebastian will cuddle up with me for some skritches and Octavian's favorite thing is the cat toy I have which is now just a long plastic stick with a little black string hanging off the end... He will chase that thing around forever! I have a video on my phone.

I love them <3


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## ratty_milkshake (Feb 24, 2014)

So glad immersion is working for you! This really gives me so much hope for my 2! I am trying it on the weekend! I have had my two for 5months but only heard about immersion 2 days ago. I did a very short 15minute session with my one baby last night and he is better already! 

I have been asking about immersion on my local rat forum here in South Africa and have gotten many negative reactions. People don't like the whole alpha rat/dominance thing. But i see it more like spending extended quality time with them and loving on them constantly and giving treats for their good behaviour. More like a parent.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There is a popular misconception immersion being a kind of forced socialization... which it isn't, but the misconception goes back to it's early roots.

Before I wrote the guide, I had all but worked out the final kinks with our rat partner and family member Fuzzy Rat. I would have introduced immersion's kind and gentle morph for normal rats eventually, but there were people writing about getting bitten badly by their vicious rats and even putting them to sleep or otherwise getting rid of them. I knew the "extreme" version of our immersion theory would fix these rats that no one else could fix... but I kind of hung back and let the threads run until they got pretty bad, and then I couldn't just let things get worse and stepped in and we fixed those really screwed up rats and immersion was breach birthed with extreme immersion coming out first. Vicious biting rats converted into cherished pets in one or two sessions drew attention. 

In extreme immersion it is critically important that a hostile, aggressive and biting rat sees you as his or her social superior. You need to earn his respect before he is going to consider being your friend. It's even worse if the rat thinks he's the alpha and can dominate you. 

Normally being the alpha means being a parent. 99% of what you are doing is encouraging your rat to communicate with you and become more self confident in an otherwise human world. But with rats that are actively trying to hurt you the rules and your communication change. To make matters worse most of the people who had these biting rats were well and properly afraid of them. Some of the humans actually had a pretty submissive or congenial personality to start with. As all appropriate advise is tailored to a particular situation most of what I was telling these folks was to take charge, be aggressive and be a strong alpha. It should go entirely without saying that once the biting rats came around and snuggled on their humans all of the strong alpha advise goes out the window. The human no longer needs to be aggressive as the rat is no longer aggressive and the alpha role reverts to the normal parent roll.

Still, immersion fixed the worst rats that otherwise couldn't be fixed and drew it's fair share of attention and before it's much kinder and friendlier morph was even released it got the reputation for being the combative method of last resort. It was ugly but necessary. It was fine to save a screwed up rat as a last resort, but not something to do with a normal rat. And strangely because it was fixing only really twisted rats it didn't draw much criticism.

As all immersion follows the same theory of communication with an intelligent animal I really never split immersion up, other than to later add the term "extreme immersion" to address the special cases with aggressive biting rats as an after thought.

So I suppose because of the way I introduced immersion and because of it's special application to rats that otherwise can't be socialized, there's always going to be a certain group of folks that are going to focus on its least common and most unpleasant application.

In all reality, I developed immersion working with a very well socialized rat, it was all about better bonding and being a good parent type alpha; always trying to be encouraging and only enforcing as much discipline as was absolutely necessary in a way a rat can understand. Like a mom might keep a young child from walking into a busy street or setting the house on fire. 

After immersion proved itself with really screwed up rats, the principles of communication and hands on human leadership began to finally move into the mainstream with normal rats and even shy rats. Just like the aggressive rats, normal and shy rats responded to having a loving parent guiding them and a great big human friend to protect them. Rats with hands on human leaders stopped fighting each other for dominance and immersion finally became what I had originally intended it to be; a highly effective socialization technique that builds inter-species families.

So, normal, happy, playful immersion with the human taking the loving parental role was the actual foundation and inception for the theory in our home, the dark back end involving biting and blood loss appeared in public first and still often gets more than it's fair share of attention. I can only answer critics of extreme immersion by saying it saves and fixes rats they can't. But it's unfair to paint normal immersion with the same brush as it's extreme variant. They share certain commonalities in theory and the in long session, but are very different experiences for both rat and human. A long session of play is very different from a long session of combat. When done properly all immersion sessions end the same with a happy human and a happy rat blended into a loving family, some are more fun than others, but even humans that have survived extreme immersion say it was a rewarding experience that they feel great about when it's all over.

In reality, immersion isn't a goal, it's just the beginning of a great friendship. After you bond with your rats you have a lifetime together to share your love.

Some folks point to the extreme variant as unkind, some folks seem can't support any theory that is founded on rats being intelligent and emotional beings capable of communication with humans, while other folks are apprehensive of anything new. And I suppose some folks feel their "expert" status is threatened by a new practice they don't preach. I don't know... but threads like this one are typical. Rats and humans do immersion together, most have a great time doing it and they move on to rewarding and loving life long relationships. That's what Fuzzy Rat and her family had, that's what our current rats have with us and that's all we ever wanted to share with our on line friends. The results speak for themselves.


Best luck with your rats.


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## Taylor Peapot (Feb 4, 2014)

The first time I tried immersion I definitely didn't do it right... Octavian hid under the radiator and I couldn't get him out (I think I scared him even more) so I was stressed which probably scared them both and then I gave up leaving Octavian there overnight and putting Sebastian back in his cage.

If you were to ask anyone else, they aren't even the same two rats. It also didn't take 3 weeks, it's just been awhile since I have posted.

I finally decided last night to move them to a bigger free range area (bathroom to kitchen) but since the kitchen has no door I duct taped a box in front of the door so they couldn't go farther lol. Sebastian cuddled up in my robe and Octavian kept stepping on his face and my head and ruining our moments 

I really want to let them free range in the bedroom but I have a fish tank and my boyfriends desktop in there so there are a lot of cords that I don't want them to chew on even though they don't chew much and I'm not sure how to "rat proof" that mess.


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