# Feeder rats?



## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

My local garden centre doesn't keep live rats in store, but they do sell them if you order them. I don't know where they order them from, I've never asked because I was never planning on buying a rat from there, until yesterday. I'm convinced that these rats are simply feeder rats that are also sold as pets, if anybody wants them. They don't sell live rats often, I was talking to a guy that worked there about it, he says they don't sell enough to keep them in store, as they would just sit there. This is where I get a bit confused. They don't sell enough rats to keep them in store, but they're keeping a variety of rat types, ages, sizes, sexes, and breeding them. Why are they breeding so many rats that they're not selling? I'll tell you why, it's because they get sold as snake feed. Frozen, yes, but snake feed nonetheless. Walking around the reptile section I noticed they had a price list, and the rats are being sold for pennies. 

I don't know if I'm right on this, but I convinced myself I was when I ordered two little boys. All I had in my mind was my baby, he was bought from this very garden centre by my friend. What if he wasn't? What if he was destined to be a feeder rat, but my friend saved him? I felt very justified at the time, but now I'm doubting myself. Either way, in two weeks I'm going to have two new little family members. 

Have I made a mistake?


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## Pixxiies (Jan 25, 2016)

These mills are producing live animals in large numbers. The process is similar to other types of livestock industries; chickens, cows, pigs, etc... There will always be a demand for live and frozen rats of various ages/sizes. Yes, there are a few people who keep these animals as pets but unfortunately most go to use for food for reptiles and birds. They do not sell fast as live feed or pets but the industry is not really losing anything by continuously pushing out large numbers as they can be frozen and stocked up for many months in advance. 

Now, there have been many attempts to make industries like this go extinct or at least make the process more humane. There are _some_ laws that help ensure the safe keeping of animals produced in these situations. Rats in particular, however, are not held to the same standard as dogs and cats when it comes to how they treated under the law. However, these industries are smart and they know what they're doing is morally and ethically challenging. So, its very rare for mills to be exploited and actually held to the standards that are to be expected. Just recently, an american vendor of various small animals for Petsmart and Petco stores exploited and both companies terminated contracts with them. On a side note, since that happened I havn't seen any rats in Petco stores, weird.

Anyway, it's really your own opinion wither or not you choose to buy animals from these mills. When you start asking people about this you might get a lot of confrontation.

On one hand, you have people who choose not to support these businesses. They come with the ideology that if everyone were to stop supporting these industries they would eventually go extinct or have to change their business practices. This is a noble ideology but I personally don't find it realistic. Mills that produce animals for food is a necessary evil.
Then on the other side of things, you have to think about all these poor animals that cannot help that they were bred into such a life. Yes, its really sad and its wrong that they are being cared for unprofessionally. But does this mean you should boycott all of these animals and watch them be left alone to an uncertain death. Of course not. And yes, you can't save all of these animals but I feel that if you can give one of them a great life like they deserve then GO FOR IT.


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## schnebbles (Nov 11, 2015)

I work at a pet store and our rats come in mainly as feeders. We sell quite a few as pets. I got mine there last Friday.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes, you have made a mistake. You won't be saving any rats, but just encouraging those people to produce more low quality, likely sick rats, that are bred and kept in horrible conditions. Sure snakes need to eat, but because of people who believe they are saving a feeder rat, more rats than necessary get produced in horrible conditions.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

That being said, I don't want you not to take those boys now. But please in the future get your rats from a reputable breeder or adopt.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I wish I could delete my previous posts here. It came out all wrong. I apologize. I remembered my first rabbit that I got from Petco, huge heartbreak. Sorry again, and I hope your new boys will bring you tons of happiness.


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## Mene (Mar 13, 2015)

It's such a hard line to walk. If you can adopt rats from a shelter, that is the best bet, imo. If that is not an option, then a breeder. But, you know that saying, "I may not be able to save all of them, but I can save THIS one." Well, you are saving those little lives. I've broken down and bought 2 of my babies from Petco. It's hard.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Every rat deserves a safe and loving forever home. No rat should be forced to die a painful and horrific death just because it was inauspiciously born in a rat mill. All of our rats were at some time in their lives in jeopardy of being eaten by a reptile. We rescued our rats from the local pet shop feeder been until the pet shop closed and we now obtain our rats from a private breeder who also breeds exotic snakes. Four of our rats have become true shoulder rats. Fuzzy Rat was one of the most remarkable rats that ever lived and the co-founder of immersion.


We do adopt our rats a very young so they don't get screwed up by mishandling or mistreatment. Otherwise, feeder rats have the potential to become some of the finest rats you will ever own.


Regrettably, both of the rats that came from one certain rat mill both developed mammary tumors when they got older. They were clearly bread to grow fast and get big. They were actually both very healthy until they develop tumors. Commercial feeder rat breeders apparently don't concern themselves with the kinds of health problems their rats might face when they get old. For the most part, feeder rats don't get old. I don't mean to imply that all feeder rats will die young or that they will all develop tumors in their old-age, but you can pretty much assume that it isn't a priority for their breeder. Again, there are plenty of feeder rats or pet shop rats that reach a ripe old age and never have any health issues.


Some people mistakenly feel that leaving a poor defenseless animal in a snake food bin is in some way punishing and evil industry, but this simply is not true. If you don't adopt a feeder rat it's just going to be fed to a snake. For the most part, pet stores hardly break even on feeder rats, they sell feeder rats so that they can sell expensive and highly profitable reptiles. If you find a store that mistreats its rats, there is nothing wrong with buying your rats there but make sure that the store owner understands that you are buying your cage, your bedding, your rat food and all of the high profit items that you need from a business that takes proper care of its rats. Our local pet shop had a one dollar markup on a feeder rat pup that they sold for $2.49, less the cost of feeding the rat pup and caring for it. On some of the larger cages they could make over 50 dollars. They also made substantial profit margins on bedding, food and other accoutrements. There used to be a pet shop that actually gave away small animals with the purchase of the cage and the starter kit.


Every rat is worth saving, and every rat's life is precious. If you want to make a difference by the way you spend your money, impact the retailer where it hurts the most by buying your expensive items responsibly and elsewhere. Once it starts costing the pet shop money, they will start to take better care of their rats and if they can see a profit in it they will source their animals from better breeders or hold their breeders to a higher standard.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I buy most of my rats stuff online. Not only I won't sponsor pet stores that sell animals, but it is safer not to go to a pet store and risk coming back with some virus that could make my rats sick. Viruses like SDA and Sendai live on clothes for a few hours. It is not likely, but why taking the risk if I have other options.

I totally agree that pet store make most of their profits on food, cages...and not on the animals themselves. I agree that every rat is worth saving. Sure you might be saving 1 particular rat from being a feeder, but that rat is almost instantly replaced by another one who would not have been bred if the demand wasn't there.


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## Rhonwen (Dec 29, 2014)

I think it's unrealistic to expect feeder/breeders to go out of business. Snakes and other reptiles need to eat and these types of mills are producing to meet THOSE demands - not the pet rat community.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

I can still turn back, at this point. They're going to phone and ask if I still want them, before they order them in. I've found some good breeders, it's a 2 hour drive to get there but I'm willing to do that. I can't get the image of 2 little rats having a good home out of my head, though. 

We don't buy cages, food, or toys from the garden centre. There's a small local business that we buy from, and they don't sell pets. They donate food, do fundraising for rescue kennels, and help animals find new homes (they even do home checks!). I wouldn't buy from anywhere else. 

I'm really torn over this. On one hand, I don't want to support the business, but I'll feel guilty leaving these two rats to die. On the other hand, if I take these rats I'm supporting the business and I'm going to feel guilty because of all the other rats that may never find a good home. Either way, I'm left feeling guilty.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rhonwen said:


> I think it's unrealistic to expect feeder/breeders to go out of business. Snakes and other reptiles need to eat and these types of mills are producing to meet THOSE demands - not the pet rat community.


Not sure what you mean. If tons of people get their rat from a pet store, they will just produce more of those rats or the snakes wouldn't have anything to eat.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Although it is absolutely true that feeder bins will be replenished when empty and perhaps in some bazaar micro-economic sense one more rat will be bred and sold from a rat mill to replace the one rat a fancier buys.... The net effect is that, that one extra rat, is the one that became a pet! 

To simplify even further... when you buy a feeder rat, it means that some commercial rat breeder bred a rat the went to a good home rather than into a snake.... And in the grand scheme of things, I'm not seeing that as a bad thing. It's actually about the best thing that can happen to a rat born in a mill.

By all means, support your local ethical hobby breeders, but if you can't find one, don't pass up the opportunity to adopt a rat to love, just because it wasn't lucky enough to be born in the right place. 

Anyone that adopts a rat from anyplace and raises it with love and gives it proper care is on the side of the angels in my book. Some people might see shades of grey as in good, better and best; but the only bad I can see is when any rat doesn't find a loving forever home.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

notbritney said:


> I can still turn back, at this point. They're going to phone and ask if I still want them, before they order them in. I've found some good breeders, it's a 2 hour drive to get there but I'm willing to do that. I can't get the image of 2 little rats having a good home out of my head, though. We don't buy cages, food, or toys from the garden centre. There's a small local business that we buy from, and they don't sell pets. They donate food, do fundraising for rescue kennels, and help animals find new homes (they even do home checks!). I wouldn't buy from anywhere else. I'm really torn over this. On one hand, I don't want to support the business, but I'll feel guilty leaving these two rats to die. On the other hand, if I take these rats I'm supporting the business and I'm going to feel guilty because of all the other rats that may never find a good home. Either way, I'm left feeling guilty.


Now that you have taken the steps to get those two rats out of a place where probably half of them will end up as feeders, I can understand how divided you must feel. That is exactly why I avoid pet stores that sell animals, it is heartbreaking. If I read your post well, I believe you would feel a little better taking those 2 now that you got involved. It it is understandable. Since you buy all your pet supplies from a business that doesn't support animal cruelty (rat mill, rabbit mill...) you won't make it much worse by taking those two, but I would stick with a reputable breeder next time. Just my opinion.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Although it is absolutely true that feeder bins will be replenished when empty and perhaps in some bazaar micro-economic sense one more rat will be bred and sold from a rat mill to replace the one rat a fancier buys.... The net effect is that, that one extra rat, is the one that became a pet! To simplify even further... when you buy a feeder rat, it means that some commercial rat breeder bred a rat the went to a good home rather than into a snake.... And in the grand scheme of things, I'm not seeing that as a bad thing. It's actually about the best thing that can happen to a rat born in a mill.By all means, support your local ethical hobby breeders, but if you can't find one, don't pass up the opportunity to adopt a rat to love, just because it wasn't lucky enough to be born in the right place. Anyone that adopts a rat from anyplace and raises it with love and gives it proper care is on the side of the angels in my book. Some people might see shades of grey as in good, better and best; but the only bad I can see is when any rat doesn't find a loving forever home.


I wonder if you feel the same about dogs who come from mills. Should people buy those instead of adopting or buying from a reputable breeder? Sure dogs are not fed to snakes, but being fed to a snake is not the worse thing that can happen to a rat born into a mill. 

The worse thing is for the parent rats to be bred over and over and over again in the mill while being kept in a plastic bin the size of a shoe box with no toys, no vet care, abuse from their handlers...and when they don't produce babies anymore they end up in a freezer while still alive. 

Sure not buying a pet rat from a pet store won't end that practice entirely, but it would still decrease it greatly. Also I would like people to have the best possible experience with their pet rats which is less likely with pet store rats than with well bred rats from a reputable breeder. I know there are exceptions. But the reality is that pet store rats are more likely to be sick, more likely to become sick, more likely to have aggression issues, more likely to have genetic defects...all of which will decrease people enjoyment of their pets and create untold number of heartbreaks that could have been easily avoided in the first place.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that topic. I mean no offense, but I really can't see how buying a rat from a pet store is making things better for anyone.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Of my four rats (soon to be six) two came from a pet store and the others are all rescues. I'm one of those people who strongly advocates for rescue. In my opinion buying from pet stores or getting feeders is just another form of rescue. The business isn't going to go away anytime soon, so why not give those we can the best life possible?

You have to be prepared for the risk though. Most feeders aren't expected to live past six months (for obvious reasons) so no one is going to care if the line is prone to getting tumors at one year and other such issues. Not all feeder and pet store rats are sickly, but there is the possibility. That being said prepare yourself for the likelihood of vet bills as they get older. Rats from a breeder are usually healthier because they're breeding for health and temperment, but either way there's no guarantee.

So I'd say go for it and get these two, but in the end the decision is yours.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> Of my four rats (soon to be six) two came from a pet store and the others are all rescues. I'm one of those people who strongly advocates for rescue. In my opinion buying from pet stores or getting feeders is just another form of rescue. The business isn't going to go away anytime soon, so why not give those we can the best life possible?You have to be prepared for the risk though. Most feeders aren't expected to live past six months (for obvious reasons) so no one is going to care if the line is prone to getting tumors at one year and other such issues. Not all feeder and pet store rats are sickly, but there is the possibility. That being said prepare yourself for the likelihood of vet bills as they get older. Rats from a breeder are usually healthier because they're breeding for health and temperment, but either way there's no guarantee.So I'd say go for it and get these two, but in the end the decision is yours.


I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging the likely higher vet bills that goes with a pet store rat as opposed to a well bred rat by a reputable breeder. Knowing how many people struggle with their rat (s) vet bills here on ratforum, every day, it is important that people be aware of that. How is it helping any store rat if the person buying it is not able to afford the higher cost of vet care that goes with a badly bred rat? 

However, I cannot possibly understand the logic behind your thinking about rescuing a rat from a pet store. The rat you think you are rescuing today is only there because someone else thought they were rescuing another rat before. It is only math. Sure the horrible rat mills won't go away because of the snakes who need to eat too. But why make it twice as worse by also asking them to produce pet rats that would NOT have been produced in the first place if it wasn't for the people who believe they are saving a rat by buying one at a pet store?


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Gribouilli said:


> I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging the likely higher vet bills that goes with a pet store rat as opposed to a well bred rat by a reputable breeder. Knowing how many people struggle with their rat (s) vet bills here on ratforum, every day, it is important that people be aware of that. How is it helping any store rat if the person buying it is not able to afford the higher cost of vet care that goes with a badly bred rat?
> 
> However, I cannot possibly understand the logic behind your thinking about rescuing a rat from a pet store. The rat you think you are rescuing today is only there because someone else thought they were rescuing another rat before. It is only math. Sure the horrible rat mills won't go away because of the snakes who need to eat too. But why make it twice as worse by also asking them to produce pet rats that would NOT have been produced in the first place if it wasn't for the people who believe they are saving a rat by buying one at a pet store?


I can make that statement because I know there are a ton of people like you out there who are very unlikely to ever get a rat from a pet store, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. It is just a statement. Most people who love rats and know about them are not likely to get them from pet stores due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. Yes I know that it can compound, but I would rather see my two girls in my house warm and safe than in a pet store with wood shavings and an open spoke wheel. Boycotting the mills won't change anything because of all the ignorant people out there who don't know better. I know from experience that the only way to stop things like that is to change the law. I fight for animal rights all the time (I have decided to devote my life to that and I'm going to college to do just that) but whether or not we buy from the store vs. a breeder or rescue will not change things. It just decides which of the rats gets a loving home and which ones get eaten.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"Boycotting the mills won't change anything because of all the ignorant people out there who don't know better"
So maybe if you had less ignorant people, things would start to change...right?


"But whether or not we buy from the store vs. a breeder or rescue will not change things" 
I have to strongly disagree here. It is only basic economics. Stores want to maximize their profits, period. If the demand for feeder rats is X, and the demand for pet rats is Y, then they will produce X+Y and not just X.


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## Pixxiies (Jan 25, 2016)

I cannot help but mention that reputable breeders are not easy to find. I am constantly seeing people who are seeking out rat companions from these places, with the intention of 'doing the right thing', and they have no luck. You have to be in the right location or risk having to drive many hours away from home to pick up. People do not keep their websites, groups or Facebook pages up to date. They do not respond to messages or applications. The application process itself is slow and grueling. Then, if you finally have all your ducks in a row, you have to wait for litters. Breeders (at least the ones that I've been in contact with) tend to keep their pick of the litter and give priority to their previous customers. Then, when you finally have an open opportunity to contact the breeder with the rat you would like (only by the picture) you only have a tiny window of time until all the rats are spoken for.

The same situation goes for rat rescues. I know these rescues have all the right intentions in the world with their processing of applicants to adopt but it is tedious and, in my opinion, ridiculous. And like someone has mentioned before, most rescue rats are products from mills. Sure, they have been handled and cared for properly which makes them more attractive to future owners and yes you are supporting the rescue... but that's about it. 

My two boys are from different stores (one local and one big box) because I didn't know any better at the time. Yes, I've had health problems with one of them. But do I regret my decision? Not one bit. And honestly, I'd buy more rats from these stores in the future. There's also something special about going to the store and handling your future baby before you make your choice. So having to go through application processes, waiting several months for litters, picking out an expensive specially bred rat by one picture, and having to drive hours to pick it up doesn't really entertain me much. Not to say I would never do it.

You cannot make an impact on this issue by posting about it on a forum filled with people who already are aware of the topic. You won't even make an impact by choosing to not buy a rat from a pet store. I think it's safe to be assume that the number of rats bought from pet stores to be pets are much less then those to be used as feeders. The need for feeders will always be there. If you want to do something about this issue you need to be more proactive. Advocate for legislation of laws and regulations that will further protect these animals. Consumers need to push big box stores to monitor their suppliers more closely.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pixxiies- I waited 4 months to get my girls from a good breeder. I could have bought some from a pet store instead, but didn't. I believe the happiness of my rats (and rats in general) was more important than instant gratification. But I realize that is only my opinion. 

And no, pet rats represent a much bigger portion of the rats sold at pet stores than you believe. Many people having snakes breed rats at their home or buy feeders from reptile breeders who sell those rats for much less than pet stores are. Furthermore, pet stores wouldn't bother producing rats as feeders only because they are barely making any profit out of them- they want you to buy rats as pets so you will spend hundreds in cage, toys, and food.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pixxiies- I agree that some rat rescues could make the adoption process easier, as it will discourage people from adopting from them.

Well if everyone here is aware of the horrible situation that they help to make even worse each time they buy a rat from a pet store, as you stated- I wonder why they are still doing it. Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Pixxiies (Jan 25, 2016)

People, including myself, will still purchase rats from pet stores because it is a viable option. Also, as stated previous by multiple members of the community, people don't necessarily find the idea of boycotting small animal mills realistic. People have different opinions then your own. And as I said before, you need to focus on the bigger picture including improving the structure and implementation of regulations for these mills. 

You know... in my short time of being a rat owner, I've met a lot of people with the biased negative opinions of them. Along with those opinions is judgement. Judgement that someone would ever consider allowing these animals into their home, spending copious amounts of time and effort on their care and even vetting them. People are completely mind blown by this. And I totally understand why. The majority of people, self-proclaimed animal lovers included, consider rats as 'pests', 'dirty', 'cheap', 'disposable' and food. And it sucks, it's an awful way to view such gentle mannered intelligent creatures. But this is the reality that we're facing. People would be completely baffled and some even disgusted that a community of rat-lovers like us exist. And because of these ideologies and judgments, I commend any individual that would welcome these precious animals into their home and hearts no matter where they come from. There are bigger fish to fry out there before this problem is extinguished. And unfortunately, I don't see an end in sight.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"And as I said before, you need to focus on the bigger picture including improving the structure and implementation of regulations for these mills."
Yes, and that will start by letting pet stores know that you won't buy anything from them until they stop selling animals. That is exactly why Petco decided to stop selling rabbits many years ago. They do whatever makes financial sense to them. If selling rabbits made them more profits than having 100's of thousands of people boycotting them...they would still be selling rabbits. 

He is what is going on behind close doors. Here is only one of the thousands of videos you could find online where people go undercover to investigate pet stores. Warning: heartbreaking content.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zONwVQBvz_s


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I think the problem here is how emotional the topic is. 

If instead of rats, it was purple pullovers with red dots. We will all agree that the demand for these kind of pullovers is small, right? As a result not many businesses are producing them because they won't be able to sell them, right?
What if tomorrow, it becomes super cool to wear purple pollovers with red dots because some celebrity says it is. Well now many businesses will start producing purple pullovers with red dots because now there is a demand for them. It is the EXACT same thing with rats sold in pet store. If the demand is only coming from people needing them as feeders, less of them are produced and the total suffering is less.


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## Pixxiies (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm vastly aware of what goes on in mills that produce animals across the country. I've tapped out of see videos years ago, but thanks.

Again, I personally don't see boycotting helping anything in the near future. Nor do I see large box pet stores halting the sale of all small animals, birds, reptiles and/or fish. I believe that more progress can be made if you sink efforts into communicating with local representatives, animal-focused charity groups, activist groups, regulatory commissions and anyone else that can be actively involved to alleviate these issues from the *source* of the problem. Whether these changes can be made locally or nationally with strictly enforced and improved laws and regulations. And of course, keeping the general public informed about these topics is very important to implement change and some will agree with you to boycott all sales until change is made. But personally, I don't see the general public giving up their 30% dog food coupon for the cause.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pixxiies said:


> ...I believe that more progress can be made if you sink efforts into communicating with local representatives, animal-focused charity groups, activist groups, regulatory commissions and anyone else that can be actively involved to alleviate these issues from the *source* of the problem. Whether these changes can be made locally or nationally with strictly enforced and improved laws and regulations.


 And what would those charity groups, activist groups...say to you in other for those things to ever happen? They would say to stop buying pets and supplies in pet stores until they agree to stop selling unhealthy, abused, and sick animals.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The SOURCE of the problem is always the demand. If there is a demand, businesses will produce it in a way that will maximize their profits. It is really that simple.


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## Pixxiies (Jan 25, 2016)

You cannot speak for entire groups of people that you have no knowledge of. The type of people that you speak of are exactly the reason why I made the hard decision not devote my career to environmental and animal welfare. It would have been a lifetime of endless competitions to determine superiority that would never produce any good. They're unrealistic when it comes to thinking about the general public and their demand for affordable solutions. 

However, there are plenty of groups who lobby for change in more direct ways then boycotting. There are plenty of animal activists who push for ethically produced meat products that do not demand the entire nation to go vegan.

You've clearly expressed your opinions as I have my own.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm not speaking for entire groups of people. I just described reality.

Let's take your meat example. How is it that someone (a business) wants to make ethically produced meat? Because more and more people want to buy ethically produced meat. Simultaneously, when people buy ethically produced meat, they also do not buy the other meats, right? The end result is less ethically produced meat (everything else equal), right?

Same here with rats. When people get a rat from a rescue or reputable breeder, guess what happen? They don't simultaneously get a rat from a pet store, hence decreasing the demand of pet store rats.

Yes, we have clearly both expressed our opinions. I meant no offense.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"They're unrealistic when it comes to thinking about the general public and their demand for affordable solutions."Really? Ethically produced meat is 2-3 times more expensive than regular meat, yet it is working. More and more people are buying those products.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Over the last few days I've told myself over and over that I shouldn't take these rats, I've tried looking at it from every angle possible, and I don't feel like I'm getting any closer to an answer. Personal experience is telling me no, as well as not wanting to support this business. Winston, my rat, has been sick on and off for almost all of his life, the fact he has lived to be 3 years old still amazes me, especially when his brother passed away very suddenly at just over 1 year old. They were both from this particular garden centre, and while I'm beyond happy Winston is still with me I'm not happy that he is as sickly as he is, and I'm even less happy that his brother barely stood a chance. These are poorly bred, sickly animals. It may very well be a coincidence, but they were not from the same litter and they were bought at different times. It's not just that they were sickly, Winston was terrified of humans from the very day he came into my home, any noise petrified him, he wouldn't allow anyone to touch him. It took me a long, long time to get him to trust me, it's only now he's completely comfortable with me, and he doesn't have much life left in him. That in itself is heartbreaking. 

Talking about that doesn't help me make a decision, it makes me even more desperate to bring them home, but it also drives me away.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So lets put a face or rather faces on this "problem"...

This is Cloud:









She's about as fancy as rats get and she was bred by a snake breeder that back ended his way into breeding high quality and very healthy fancy rats. And yes... she's a very competent highly trained true shoulder rat and an all around sweetheart.

This is Cloud with her grand niece Misty:









Misty is playful and fun, she still hand wrestles at almost a year old. She's a ball of energy and follows me around the house... she's also a true shoulder rat....

This was Max:

When we rescued her out of a snake food bin.,,









Passing her final true shoulder rat test.... at night under the fireworks and in a sea of people.








and meeting and greeting people at the carnival... Making new friends and changing hearts and minds.








This was Amelia:

She may have been breed by a private "ethical" breeder but she got dumped into the pet shop feeder bin when her siblings died of megacolon.









And this was Fuzzy Rat,,, 


An intrepid true shoulder rat that loved to climb tall trees...









that made hundreds of friends... often by just walking up and introducing herself to people she met...








and who walked at heel and swam in the lake...








And she was beyond brilliant, learning many human words and devising ways to make herself understood by us... she was the rat co-founder of immersion.. a socialization technique based on communication and understanding that's helped thousands of rat owners build better bonds with their rats and has actually saved the lives of many screwed up and biting rats.... And Fuzzy Rat and Max more than likely did more in their short lives to change the more hearts and minds about rats than anyone on this forum has. 

So... both Fuzzy Rat and Max were bred by the same commercial breeder and I purchased them for $2.49 each, they wholesaled for just over a dollar each... So, I'm guessing that someone thinks that both of these rats deserved to die to prevent a breeder from earning a gross revenue of $2.00 and the pet shop, which by the way, took pretty good care of it's rats from earning a little less than $3.00...? So the hundreds of hearts and minds that were changed and the thousands of humans and rats that were helped were worth less than $5.00 in total, because it was paid to someone we don't like? Or maybe someone is implying that our rats somehow deserve to live less than theirs or they deserved to be eaten by snakes????

Or maybe someone thinks that Amelia didn't deserve a good home because she got culled by an 'ethical' breeder... because it was her fault that she was a high white from a litter gone wrong?

Or maybe someone thinks that Cloud and Misty should be fed to a snake, so that *maybe* two other rats don't get bred as snake food?

Please take a good look at the photos above, all of our rats pictured above and others not pictured here were rescued from being snake food at some time in their lives. 

Then by all means please try and explain to me why Amelia didn't deserve a good forever home or why we should have left Max in a feeder bin, or how keeping $2.49 out of the clutches of the evil industry is somehow worth the life's achievements of the truly singular and amazing Fuzzy Rat! And most of all, tell me why I should feed Misty and Cloud to a snake so that someone someplace breeds two less rats!

It's great to have morals and ethics and to promote a world that's better for all rats, but if someone among us really is that heartless and devoid of all human compassion to actually sacrifice innocent rats for their iffy-at-best political agenda, I'd really like to know who they are... so I can keep my rats far away from them!

Just take a minute to think before you answer... make sure you really believe that your rats are better and have more right to live than mine... make sure you really believe that those of us with feeder rats or pet shop rats should feed them to snakes or bring them back to the store. Make sure you really believe that your values are more important than our beloved rats... then for sure let us know who you are. My daughter and I still take our rats out to do meet and greets and I want to make absolutely sure I don't accidentally hand you one of my rats so you can feed it to a snake. 


And by the way, I have ethics and morals and a commitment too... I go out of my way and spend hours talking to people about rats and how wonderful they are and bringing them onto our side through actually going out and meeting real people and letting them meet and hold a friendly trained rat. And I've actually saved real rats lives from having been eaten by snakes rather than just talking about promoting a hypothetical better world for rats yet unborn. And I'm da*n proud of our feeder bin refugees and their achievements. They earned their right to live and they earn their place in our home and in our hearts every day. I'm all for a better world for rats and I'm doing something about it, and our rats have made a difference even if it's a tiny difference in a giant world... Please tell me how many pet shops or rat mills you've shut down by letting sweet, innocent rats languish in pet shops or be fed to snakes.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Rat Daddy, putting a face/faces on the "problem" has helped me make my decision. Honestly, I feel terrible that it has been such a hard decision to make, because every time I look at my rat I'm reminded of the fact he could have been snake food, and I'm so glad my friend didn't leave him in the store. I won't be leaving those two boys in the store, if they are sickly and poorly bred then it is what it is, I'll do the very best I can for them, as I've done for Winston, who despite it all has lived a long and happy life.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Notbritney, 

I'm proud to be a part of a community of people that really care for and love their animals. Feel free to message me if I can help you with your new refugees. I hope they bring you the love you deserve.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> So lets put a face or rather faces on this "problem"...
> 
> This is Cloud:
> 
> ...


That was the best post you have ever written in my time here. Thank you.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Yes Rat Daddy you said it better than I ever could. I work with a rescue that is supported by a big pet store and they have helped us place hundreds of animals in forever homes that would not have been able to find homes otherwise. They are not all as evil as people make them out to be. I would buy from them again, although rescue is always my first choice.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> So lets put a face or rather faces on this "problem"...This is Cloud:
> View attachment 241025
> She's about as fancy as rats get and she was bred by a snake breeder that back ended his way into breeding high quality and very healthy fancy rats. And yes... she's a very competent highly trained true shoulder rat and an all around sweetheart.This is Cloud with her grand niece Misty:
> View attachment 241033
> ...


WHOA! 

You're being downright silly now.

No one said that your rats should have been rat food instead. Sure two more rats don't make much of a difference, but what about 1,000 people thinking like you? Still no difference, I guess- that is in your mind. 

I never met 1 person thinking that getting a puppy from a puppy mill instead of adopting or buying from a reputable breeder was a great idea. Well, I guess it is somewhat different when it is only rats...at least for you...

Guess what? I spent hundreds of hours volunteering at an animal shelter and wildlife rehab center in the last 6 months only. I have volunteered for many years now. In 2015 I gave a little over $4,000 to animal rescue, including close to 1,000 to rat rescues. But maybe I was all wrong, maybe I should have bought 1,000 feeders instead. Umm, let me think.

And be assured that if you ever hand me one of your rats, I won't feed her/him to a snake. I promise.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Oh and Rat Daddy's rats were so amazing because he put lots of time training them, not because they were feeder rats. In other words, he would have got the same results with rescue rats. Just making sure no one start to think there is something magical about feeder rats...


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

There is a HUGE difference between mill RATS and mill DOGS...

The difference is that people are not breeding dogs for snake food. We CAN stop the breeding of mill dogs.

On the other hand, if every single pet owner stopped buying rats, then what? Well... they would still be bred for snakes. So nothing changes, the rats are still being bred.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. And you can't compare rat mills to puppy and kitten mills because as stated above even if we remove the demand for pets there is still the demand for snake food. For puppies and kittens the only demand for the mills is pets. People who work them or show them usually breed them themselves so mills don't cater to them. And just for the record, my dog was rescued from a puppy mill that got shut down, as was the dog of a friend of my family.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Silly me, I guess I was just thinking that if less rats are produced because the demand was less, less suffering in rat mills would incur...My math skills must be awful! I thought that X/2 rats suffering in rat mills was better than X rats suffering in rat mills. 
I guess we all need to buy feeder rats then. 

Also I did state that no one feed puppies to snakes in my previous post, so I already knew that- and so happy I was at least right on one thing. I also said that being fed to a snake was not the worst part of it. The worse things was the parents rats being bred over and over again and kept in bins the size of a shoe box with no medical care, no love, no toys, abuse...their whole life- until they are frozen alive. I guess I was wrong on that too. All those rats are actually kept in critter nations with tons of toys and lot of love. Silly me. 

Please forgive me for ever getting a rat from a shelter. I realize now that I should have left them being euthanized by the shelter, and saved a feeder rat instead. I was so wrong, I should have gotten them from Petco instead

I'm happy we all agree now


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow, how mature... I think you missed the point entirely.

- being fed to a snake was not the worst part of it

I agree...

- The worse things was the parents rats being bred over and over again and kept in bins the size of a shoe box with no medical care, no love, no toys, abuse...their whole life- until they are frozen alive

Again, I agree... but how will people not buying pets from pet stores stop this? Pet owners are a TINY fraction of people who buy rats...

- All those rats are actually kept in critter nations with tons of toys and lot of love.

No one said that...

You are being dramatic.


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## mis.kay (May 29, 2015)

I feel like this discussion has become very offensive to personal opinions, and has now become a test of proper morals. It has strayed away from the initial question, which by now, has already been answered. Everyone's response, whether agreed upon by others or not, was offered to Notbritney and her mind has been made up. Because I think highly of most of the people responding in this thread, I personally request for it to stop before an admin has to get involved.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all, thank you Gribuilli for your contributions to the animal welfare cause. Certainly I believe that you and all of those people that might want to feed our rats to snakes to prevent more rats from being bred by mills actually believe that they are doing something good. 

But in fact, it's principle at the expense of life. And as we're playing "it's like" to prove our points... It's like carpet bombing a country to bring it's inhabitants freedom, where obviously you are blasting 
'a few of' the people you are liberating to pieces for the 'greater good'.... or it's like spray painting fur coats, when the insurance companies or owners are replacing the coats and twice as many animals are bred and killed. It's the misapplication of good principles that start wars. And I'm certain that some Nazis were completely convinced that concentration camps were the best method of improving the human genome. 

Sure we all want a world where everyone is free from tyranny and a smarter, stronger and healthier next human generation might sound like a good thing and for sure we all want a better world for rats... but at what cost? A little carpet bombing, a few concentration camps, a few more fur coats replaced at the cost of a few hundred animal's lives or a few thousand rats that have to languish in stores and/or be fed to snakes almost sounds like a reasonable price for progress, when you word it the right way. 

But when you dig down through the rhetoric, it always boils down to doing something awful for a supposedly good reason, which somehow justifies more cruelty and more murder for greater effect. So instead of just feeding my two rats to snakes to prevent rat mills from selling two more rats, you wind up arguing that if we took all of the former feeder rats away from their human families and fed them all to snakes that would somehow be better because it would have more of an impact on the breeders and stores. Seriously? 

Iffy-at-best logic has a tendency to sound too good, and it can be built on good intentions and some solid, but often self serving reasoning, but then you have to take a hard look at what it really does. In this case there are two very real and most likely really sweet innocent rats that need a good forever home and they might have been left to languish in a store or eventually fed to snakes. Was that what you really wanted? Do these two rats absolutely need to be sacrificed for the cause? Do my rats need to be sacrificed? Do any rats need to die at all for the cause?

The answer is a resounding NO!!!!! We can make our point just as effectively and even more effectively without killing the very rats we are trying to help. We can lobby for higher standards and licensing for animal breeders and more inspections. We can advocate for higher standards of care for animals in pet shops, we can vote with our dollars by not buying the high profit items from an offending store. There are a lot of things we can do without sacrificing two rats that need a good forever home for the "cause".

There's no evidence that Adolph Hitler actually ever personally killed anyone, in fact he was supposedly vegetarian and he even had a dog, I'm sure lots of people even thought he was a nice guy.... but he just had a few iffy-at-best notions that didn't quite work out, mostly because sane people stopped him. But how was anyone to know he was wrong at the time? Well, maybe when someone was shoving innocent human beings into a gas chamber or burning mountains of corpses they might have gotten a clue. Bad ideas just somehow sound better when you do them on a grand scale. Killing a single innocent human being is wrong and everyone knew it... so killing millions didn't make it right or even better! But somehow by multiplying the number made what would seem unthinkable became acceptable. Joe Stalin once said that killing a single person is a tragedy but killing millions is a statistic... no truer then than it is now.

Therefore feeding my rats to snakes is wrong. Abandoning two more innocent friendly rats to a horrible fate is similarly wrong and sacrificing thousands of rats for the cause is a ratopocalypse! 

In fact, you are absolutely correct that our rats are highly trained and super well bonded rats with special personalities.... but I think you have missed my point... there is something magical about all rats, no matter where they are from and no rat anywhere should be sacrificed for a cause. Our rats aren't better than breeder rats or rescue rats, but they are just as good and deserve to live just as much as every other rat.

Please keep up the good work you do... know your efforts are appreciated... but also please reconsider advocating a philosophy or a strategy that involves prolonging the suffering or the killing of real live innocent rats. It's great to adopt from ethical breeders, it's important to support rescues but it's not moral to suggest that rats of inauspicious birth are worth less than any other rats or that they have to be sacrificed to a cause... Nor is it acceptable to imply that someone that rescues a rat from a feeder bin is somehow lacking in understanding or ethically challenged. I know exactly were my money went, and even if it went to the devil himself, it was a very small price to pay for the lives we saved and love we share with our rats. It was a moral decision, it was ethical and it was the right thing to do... I only regret having to leave other rats behind... not the ones I saved.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And by the way.... if all of the dogs that weren't adopted from puppy mills were then fed alive to giant snakes... people might stop using that example to justify the reasoning behind leaving rats in feeder bins...


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> First of all, thank you Gribuilli for your contributions to the animal welfare cause. Certainly I believe that you and all of those people that might want to feed our rats to snakes to prevent more rats from being bred by mills actually believe that they are doing something good. But in fact, it's principle at the expense of life. And as we're playing "it's like" to prove our points... It's like carpet bombing a country to bring it's inhabitants freedom, where obviously you are blasting 'a few of' the people you are liberating to pieces for the 'greater good'.... or it's like spray painting fur coats, when the insurance companies or owners are replacing the coats and twice as many animals are bred and killed. It's the misapplication of good principles that start wars. And I'm certain that some Nazis were completely convinced that concentration camps were the best method of improving the human genome. Sure we all want a world where everyone is free from tyranny and a smarter, stronger and healthier next human generation might sound like a good thing and for sure we all want a better world for rats... but at what cost? A little carpet bombing, a few concentration camps, a few more fur coats replaced at the cost of a few hundred animal's lives or a few thousand rats that have to languish in stores and/or be fed to snakes almost sounds like a reasonable price for progress, when you word it the right way. But when you dig down through the rhetoric, it always boils down to doing something awful for a supposedly good reason, which somehow justifies more cruelty and more murder for greater effect. So instead of just feeding my two rats to snakes to prevent rat mills from selling two more rats, you wind up arguing that if we took all of the former feeder rats away from their human families and fed them all to snakes that would somehow be better because it would have more of an impact on the breeders and stores. Seriously? Iffy-at-best logic has a tendency to sound too good, and it can be built on good intentions and some solid, but often self serving reasoning, but then you have to take a hard look at what it really does. In this case there are two very real and most likely really sweet innocent rats that need a good forever home and they might have been left to languish in a store or eventually fed to snakes. Was that what you really wanted? Do these two rats absolutely need to be sacrificed for the cause? Do my rats need to be sacrificed? Do any rats need to die at all for the cause?The answer is a resounding NO!!!!! We can make our point just as effectively and even more effectively without killing the very rats we are trying to help. We can lobby for higher standards and licensing for animal breeders and more inspections. We can advocate for higher standards of care for animals in pet shops, we can vote with our dollars by not buying the high profit items from an offending store. There are a lot of things we can do without sacrificing two rats that need a good forever home for the "cause".There's no evidence that Adolph Hitler actually ever personally killed anyone, in fact he was supposedly vegetarian and he even had a dog, I'm sure lots of people even thought he was a nice guy.... but he just had a few iffy-at-best notions that didn't quite work out, mostly because sane people stopped him. But how was anyone to know he was wrong at the time? Well, maybe when someone was shoving innocent human beings into a gas chamber or burning mountains of corpses they might have gotten a clue. Bad ideas just somehow sound better when you do them on a grand scale. Killing a single innocent human being is wrong and everyone knew it... so killing millions didn't make it right or even better! But somehow by multiplying the number made what would seem unthinkable became acceptable. Joe Stalin once said that killing a single person is a tragedy but killing millions is a statistic... no truer then than it is now.Therefore feeding my rats to snakes is wrong. Abandoning two more innocent friendly rats to a horrible fate is similarly wrong and sacrificing thousands of rats for the cause is a ratopocalypse! In fact, you are absolutely correct that our rats are highly trained and super well bonded rats with special personalities.... but I think you have missed my point... there is something magical about all rats, no matter where they are from and no rat anywhere should be sacrificed for a cause. Our rats aren't better than breeder rats or rescue rats, but they are just as good and deserve to live just as much as every other rat.Please keep up the good work you do... know your efforts are appreciated... but also please reconsider advocating a philosophy or a strategy that involves prolonging the suffering or the killing of real live innocent rats. It's great to adopt from ethical breeders, it's important to support rescues but it's not moral to suggest that rats of inauspicious birth are worth less than any other rats or that they have to be sacrificed to a cause... Nor is it acceptable to imply that someone that rescues a rat from a feeder bin is somehow lacking in understanding or ethically challenged. I know exactly were my money went, and even if it went to the devil himself, it was a very small price to pay for the lives we saved and love we share with our rats. It was a moral decision, it was ethical and it was the right thing to do... I only regret having to leave other rats behind... not the ones I saved.


What the heck? 

Did I somehow stepped on the Ratforum of a parallel universe where everything is upside down and people imagine things that were never said? 

I never advocated to take your rats from you and fed them to snakes! This is just crazy. 

Apparently you get that painting fur coats will just make people replace them, good. But you can't understand that buying a rat instead of adopting one will just make the rat mill produce one more. Very interesting. 

What's wrong with you for comparing me to Hitler? Please don't bother answering that.

I'm just speechless at that point. 

I think that mis.kay is right. No point arguing further. 

Have a great weekend.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Whether someone adopts a rat from a feeder bin doesn't change the net number of rats that will be fed to snakes in any way. It does however impact the number of rats finding good forever homes and humans who get rats to love in a positive way. And that's a good thing.

I'm not implying that it's wrong to adopt from reputable breeders or rescues, in fact I whole heatedly encourage it. As I've said repeatedly every rat deserves a chance at a loving forever home. But I will absolutely not apologize for our rats that came from bad situations, nor my decision to rescue them from there. 

I can encourage someone to adopt from a shelter or a breeder without discouraging someone else to adopt from anywhere else...

And have a great weekend too.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

If I go to the pet store and buy 2 rats I am wrong for doing so. If I then take those 2 rats to a rescue and someone else "adopts" them and takes them home-that makes it ok? I'm sorry I can't agree with you or your logic.

My rat Petey was intended to be snake food. He was bought as snake food. He was offered to the snake. He became a pet only because the snake refused to eat him until he became too big for her to eat. If I had bought him from the snake food bin, I would have gotten him 3 months earlier, he would have been 3 months younger, he and I would have had a much easier time getting to know one another.

Waiting for a rescue or shelter rat has the same short comings. The rat is older, often mistreated, can be difficult for the new owner to get to know. Unless you are lucky enough to check with the rescue when new babies are actually available. Now, I am not saying not to adopt from rescues, just that it isn't always ideal either.

No, I do not advocate buying from pet stores or feeder bins. I prefer buying from breeders, but I searched for several weeks and didn't find a breeder anywhere near my home and my husband balked at driving 5 hours to a rescue for rats. Petey needed a friend. I bought Binx from a pet store. I got my two lovely ladies Storm and Rogue from a lovely Mom who was in a situation that she couldn't keep them. They are well socialized and a joy to me, but not all rescues are like them.

I agree that well bred rats from ethical breeders are the preferred way to go. When my son asked me why I would spend more to get the same animal from a breeder as opposed to a pet shop I told him, because a good breeder handles and socializes the babies. They are less likely to have been exposed to dangerous illnesses. They are more likely to have healthy lives.

Yes, I agree that good breeders or rescues are the best places to get pet rats, but wherever someone does go to get their beloved pets, I will not castigate them or try to belittle their choices. If they find love I cannot in good conscience berate them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"Whether someone adopts a rat from a feeder bin doesn't change the net number of rats that will be fed to snakes in any way."

"ABSOLUTLY CORRECT. Thank you! And no one ever said that it would, I certainly did not!!!!!!!!

However, it INCREASES the number of rats that are kept their whole life in bins the size of a shoe box. They can't stand up, or stretch out ever. They get no medical care, they are sick, in pain...bred over and over again. 

They are treated even worse than dogs in puppy mills. Google rat mills, or pet store undercover investigation.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"If I go to the pet store and buy 2 rats I am wrong for doing so. If I then take those 2 rats to a rescue and someone else "adopts" them and takes them home-that makes it ok? I'm sorry I can't agree with you or your logic."

Are you serious? 
Can't you see the difference?

Think about it for a while, and if you still don't get it in a few hours, I will be happy to explain it to you. 

At least you agree that good breeders or rat rescues are best places to get your rat from, so for that I thank you.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Gribouilli I see your logic. I really do. I also see the others logic as well. So can you guys please stop talking to each other like five year olds calling the other stupid. We all have difference of opinion. If we didn't then there wouldn't be a forum.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

"Whether someone adopts a rat from a feeder bin doesn't change the net number of rats that will be fed to snakes in any way"Well if if you believe that, then you are actually agreeing with me: buying a pet store rat doesn't decrease the number of rats being fed to snakes, hence no extra rat (net number) gets ever saved from ending up in a snake.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Not everyone is obliged to agree with you. I won't judge where you get your rats, but by how much you love them.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I am not going to argue with you gribouilli. Most everyone posting on this thread is simply presenting their opinions in a professional manner while you are belittling anyone who does not share your opinion and verbally attacking us, acting like you are superior to us and we are all idiots. This is simply not true. This is not in any way a black and white issue and there is no one single solution that will fix everything. Instead of trying to make everyone else on this forum who has also done their research and is building on their own experiences look like an idiot, try being a little more professional. You are attacking us and that is not the kind of environment and energy this forum needs. We are all reasonable people on here. The way you are responding here makes you look immature and combative, which will actually alienate many people to your cause instead of bringing them around to see your point of view. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar you know. I know it's an old saying but it is true. I refuse to argue with you further which is why I did not respond after my second post a few pages back, but I have continued to keep up with this thread and I felt this needed to be said.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Normally, I don't spend this much time trying to find some way to get someone to understand something so obvious... but this is important to me and many people in our community. 

You see, I'm not trying to save the world... just actual rats from getting eaten by snakes. I have a pretty straightforward plan, one that I know works. I adopt them and give them a loving forever home. Rat saved, end of story... or rather the beginning of a wonderful relationship.

You, on the other hand you are promoting an iffy-at-best scheme to help some rats yet to be born, not to be born. As we all agree, you are in a no-win situation as snakes are going to be eating the same amount or rats no matter what you do, so your plan isn't likely to actually close any rat mills or stores, or improve the lives of a lot of rats, just pinch someone's profits a little and maybe even get more rats that go unsold culled. Are you really so certain that buying less pet rats will reduce the number of feeder rats bred or might it not be possible that the breeders might find some even more horrific use for their surplus population, like rat baiting?

And the price for this little exercise in retribution, is to be paid in real rats lives. And moreover you are creating an underclass of feeder rats that will never get good forever homes. Like they aren't as good enough to live. 

Your message is that feeder rats are fine as long as they are only fed to snakes, because we can't do anything about that. But if someone rescues a feeder rat and makes it a pet, that's bad, because, heaven forbid, a feeder breeder or pet shop makes a buck off a rat going to a good forever home.

And to boot, your calling into question the morality, ethics and considered judgement of someone who wants to do something to save a rat from a fate worse than death... or at least death.

By suggesting that it's wrong to rescue rats from pet stores or feeder bins you are belittling our beloved best furry friends and flat out insulting those of us who have rescued them. You might find a lot of fancy ways to put it, but your saying I was wrong to rescue our babies and that they weren't worth saving because it doesn't fit your grand scheme to have some minor impact on someone you don't like. Even if we all hate rat mills, there's still no way any compassionate human being in their right mind is going to buy into your iffy-at best scheme once they understand your real plan and how futile it is at best and inhumane it is at worst.

If you prefer to support breeders or rescues no one is going to disagree with you. But when you attack rats from unfortunate circumstances and those who love them, I can't even begin to understand where you are coming from. If you were talking about letting humans die horrific deaths so fewer would be born into hardship, I'm thinking people would be far less tolerant of your opinion, but these are only feeder rats, right?

If you have a plan that improves the lives of feeder rats without killing them or chastising the people who adopt and love them, I'd be happy to listen. But for now, I'm fine with you questioning my morals and intelligence, but not with you insulting our rats....so... I'm really trying to keep my cool and be respectful.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> I am not going to argue with you gribouilli. Most everyone posting on this thread is simply presenting their opinions in a professional manner while you are belittling anyone who does not share your opinion and verbally attacking us, acting like you are superior to us and we are all idiots. This is simply not true. This is not in any way a black and white issue and there is no one single solution that will fix everything. Instead of trying to make everyone else on this forum who has also done their research and is building on their own experiences look like an idiot, try being a little more professional. You are attacking us and that is not the kind of environment and energy this forum needs. We are all reasonable people on here. The way you are responding here makes you look immature and combative, which will actually alienate many people to your cause instead of bringing them around to see your point of view. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar you know. I know it's an old saying but it is true. I refuse to argue with you further which is why I did not respond after my second post a few pages back, but I have continued to keep up with this thread and I felt this needed to be said.


Umm, I'm not the one calling someone Hitler! So...it doesn't look like I'm the one attacking anyone or being immature here.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Normally, I don't spend this much time trying to find some way to get someone to understand something so obvious... but this is important to me and many people in our community. You see, I'm not trying to save the world... just actual rats from getting eaten by snakes. I have a pretty straightforward plan, one that I know works. I adopt them and give them a loving forever home. Rat saved, end of story... or rather the beginning of a wonderful relationship.You, on the other hand you are promoting an iffy-at-best scheme to help some rats yet to be born, not to be born. As we all agree, you are in a no-win situation as snakes are going to be eating the same amount or rats no matter what you do, so your plan isn't likely to actually close any rat mills or stores, or improve the lives of a lot of rats, just pinch someone's profits a little and maybe even get more rats that go unsold culled. Are you really so certain that buying less pet rats will reduce the number of feeder rats bred or might it not be possible that the breeders might find some even more horrific use for their surplus population, like rat baiting?And the price for this little exercise in retribution, is to be paid in real rats lives. And moreover you are creating an underclass of feeder rats that will never get good forever homes. Like they aren't as good enough to live. Your message is that feeder rats are fine as long as they are only fed to snakes, because we can't do anything about that. But if someone rescues a feeder rat and makes it a pet, that's bad, because, heaven forbid, a feeder breeder or pet shop makes a buck off a rat going to a good forever home.And to boot, your calling into question the morality, ethics and considered judgement of someone who wants to do something to save a rat from a fate worse than death... or at least death.By suggesting that it's wrong to rescue rats from pet stores or feeder bins you are belittling our beloved best furry friends and flat out insulting those of us who have rescued them. You might find a lot of fancy ways to put it, but your saying I was wrong to rescue our babies and that they weren't worth saving because it doesn't fit your grand scheme to have some minor impact on someone you don't like. Even if we all hate rat mills, there's still no way any compassionate human being in their right mind is going to buy into your iffy-at best scheme once they understand your real plan and how futile it is at best and inhumane it is at worst.If you prefer to support breeders or rescues no one is going to disagree with you. But when you attack rats from unfortunate circumstances and those who love them, I can't even begin to understand where you are coming from. If you were talking about letting humans die horrific deaths so fewer would be born into hardship, I'm thinking people would be far less tolerant of your opinion, but these are only feeder rats, right?If you have a plan that improves the lives of feeder rats without killing them or chastising the people who adopt and love them, I'd be happy to listen. But for now, I'm fine with you questioning my morals and intelligence, but not with you insulting our rats....so... I'm really trying to keep my cool and be respectful.


You will be happy to know that your impeccable logic convinced me. In 2016, instead of giving to animal charities, I will spend $4,000 at Petco saving 1,000 rats from becoming snake food.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've never called anyone Hitler, I just mentioned him because he was a vegetarian dog owner and possibly in someone's opinion a nice person that was also just a little consumed by his iffy-at-best scheme to "fix" the entire world by actually killing some to potentially benefit others... I most certainly didn't mean to comment on your character, nor his; just point out the similarity in your plans and the likely consequences. I sincerely apologize for any unintentional slight.

And finally, you're catching on. Finding good forever homes for 1000 rats destined to become snake food is the best plan you have suggested so far. It's still not a perfect solution, but I can support that a whole lot easier than your other one that would condemn that same 1000 rats to a certain and horrific death.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Rescues and feeder rats are IMO they same thing. In some way you are rescuing both of them. They can both get killed. Shelters putting them to sleep because no one wants rats and feeders getting eaten alive or being thrown into a freezer. Both have equally good causes and I'm happy with both my two feeders and my two shelter rats.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

This discussion should've ended about 4 pages ago. What's with this trend of carrying on and on with bickering lately? Can't we all be mature and respectable and agree to disagree instead of fighting for the last word until it degenerates into name calling?

Is that too much to ask from some of us...?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Jaguar,

I suppose I had the misfortune of starting out on another forum. I just wanted a little community and to ask about what turned out to be a minor UTI, that pretty much went away on it's own... In any event I was really worried at the time. But instead of getting the camaraderie and support I anticipated, someone posted that it was my own fault for buying a *junk feeder bin rat,* moreover _I deserved to have a sick rat_ because I supported rat mills and pet shops. I was outright attacked and that really hurt my feelings and it still hurts when people insult our rats or suggest they should be, or have been, fed to snakes.

It took me a while to really process what happened, but I came to the realization that there was no such thing as a junk rat and that no matter what bad things I have done in my life, adopting my girls and saving their lives was, by far, one of the finest things I ever did. 

I am all for improving the world for rats, up to the point where someone suggests that some rats need to die for their cause, that certain rats are inferior and that people who adopt rats in desperate need are morally, ethically or intellectually depraved. 

As a community, I believe we should support ethical breeders and rescues. I also believe that everyone has a right to their opinion, but some opinions are in themselves malignant and should never stand unchallenged. There are no junk rats that deserve to die and there are no ethically, morally or intellectually challenged rat owners who adopt a rat in need of a loving forever home from anywhere. This forum should be a safe place for all rats and their owners. 

So with all due respect to everyone's opinions, I would love to never have to address this topic ever again.


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