# very sick rat



## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

My rat has pacific diagnosis but the vet believes she has a 50 50 chance of recovering if i provide good supportive care, she's on 0.1 of baytril twice a day and small dose of panacur once a day.
I'm feeding her water and baby food every 2 or 3 hours with a small syringe and she is always very hungry and eating loads.....the vet never gave me a specific amount of times a day she needs feeding (she cant walk so cant feed her self) do i need to get up through the night and feed/ water aswell and is there anything els i should be feeding her apart from high calorie baby food? any help gratefully recieved as never had to nurse any of my rats like this before.
thanks


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> My rat has pacific diagnosis but the vet believes she has a 50 50 chance of recovering if i provide good supportive care, she's on 0.1 of baytril twice a day and small dose of panacur once a day.
> I'm feeding her water and baby food every 2 or 3 hours with a small syringe and she is always very hungry and eating loads.....the vet never gave me a specific amount of times a day she needs feeding (she cant walk so cant feed her self) do i need to get up through the night and feed/ water aswell and is there anything els i should be feeding her apart from high calorie baby food? any help gratefully recieved as never had to nurse any of my rats like this before.
> thanks


what is pacific diagnosis? I can help you if I have a better idea of what she is ailing with. I have nursed a lot of rats so I can help with that as long as I have a clue what is wrong with her.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

sorry was ment to write she has no pacific diagnosis, vet said possibly a parasite or a nervous system problem.
thanks


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

for some reason today pacific and specific are the same word!!! i mean specific every where you see pacific?!? sorry im very tired was up through the night feeding sick rat!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OK I need ALL symptoms and how fast they showed up.

For eg.

Crackly gurgling breathing, lethargy, porphryin, puffed up fur, onset in a few days or overnight...possible pneumonia

Paralysed or mostly paralysed, recovering a little, seems weaker on one side, might circle, very confused...possible stroke

Head tilt, circling, confusion, weakness, lethargy...possible inner ear infection

inabiltiy to grasp with front paws, possible head tilt/circling, confusion, limp feeling when picked up...possible PT

can you give me more symptoms and a timeline? I have been through ALL of the above and more.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

lilspaz68 said:


> OK I need ALL symptoms and how fast they showed up.
> 
> For eg.
> 
> ...


ok about 4 weeks a ago i started to notice she had slowed down alot, struggled with climbing i thought it was old age or possibly because she was over weight, then about 12 days ago she started leaning to one side when walking and couldn't climb what so ever. she never lost apatite during all of this it proberly even increased. then about 6 days ago she started to struggle to get about and appeared to be dragging herself her paws where and still are working though, she can still grasp stuff. her head was tilted to the side slightly from about 2 weeks ago but nothingt drastic till about 4 days ago. she never loved to be picked up before but from about 3 days ago she didnt mind at all never struggled at all and is quite limp. went to vet yesterday and she says its probly not an inner ear infection as there are no signs in the outer ear and a nervous system promlem was more likely or even a parasite, yesterday she was still getting about a little but today she cant at all, but still is eating lots. i hope that covers everything


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

oh and no breathing problems only a red discharge from eyes and nose, also she's still making an attempt at cleaning her face and is not completely lifeless today


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I would definitely say inner ear infection, you rarely see ANYthing at all in the outer ear since its in the "inner" part. She has all the symptoms.

She needs strong abs and fast!

Is she on anything at the moment?

I am still going to give you the links to case histories of PT just in case...the timeline is right.

both of these rats were my own
http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pituitary_tumor_figure_1.php
http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pituitary_tumor_figure_2.php


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

She's on 0.1 of baytril twice a day


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> She's on 0.1 of baytril twice a day


whats the concentration of the baytril? should say something like 20 mg/ml or something like that.

How long has she been on it now? Btw if she's that sick, baytril alone may not save her  She needs something like doxycycline or another drug to make up a much harder hitting combo.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

In addition to Lilspaz's info;

You're doing the right thing with babyfood but if she's sick and not moving around much calories aren't going to be the main issue but it's dehydration you have to fight. You can use something like Ensure in addition to the babyfood to keep the fluid levels up. I also water down some feedings of babyfood (50/50 water:babyfood) simply for this reason. Also tempting with watery fruits such as peaches, melons, grapes can been a good way to entice eating as well as keeping track of their ability to eat on their own.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

the concentration of baytril is 2.5%. i did get up and do 2 night feeds last night which she accepted happily, but around 9 o'clock she started this jerking thing, it was like she relaly wanted to get up and move but her body wouldnt let her and she would just jerk forward a few cms.....also she grinds her teeth alot during feeding is this normal?? she's not looking any better this morning


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

2.5% is 25 mg/ml baytril. Is your girl seriously tiny? Does she weigh something like 250 grams? If not she's being underdosed. I think you need to find another vet. One who will give you a diagnosis, and proper treatment.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The grinding could be bruxxing if she enjoys the feedings btw.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

She is a very small rat yes and has lost alot of weight during the illness the vet weighed her i cant remeber exactly but it was 300 and something, surely any qualified vet should know what they are talking about?


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

everyone is telling me the same thing about my vet, but im at a complete loss as to what to do....there are no exotic or specialist vets any where near me....i'm gettin a bit desperate as im sure every min counts at the moment?!? what shall i do?


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

Just tried to give ratty another feed, she had a little but then refuse any more and was very still where as usually she cleans her face and tries to move around.....


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> She is a very small rat yes and has lost alot of weight during the illness the vet weighed her i cant remeber exactly but it was 300 and something, surely any qualified vet should know what they are talking about?


Vet doesn't automatically equal good.

One vet I went to actually poisoned a rat I took in with ivermectin. She ended up stroking out and dying 

But as long as your rat is small the dose is fine, but still not enough.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

i understand that not all vets are good as ive not used plenty again after they havnt done a very good job, im at a dead end....ive searched and search for a vet that is even just good with rats and can't find any nearby, when i ring and ask its a case of no specialist but all our vets are qualifed....so what do i do?


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

I've just looked at your photos about calla (sorry for your loss) it seems awfully similar to what my girl has, but in all the post's it says it happens real fast.... where as mine wwas more gradual? IM SO CONFUSED!!! whats wrong with my girl?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

PT is gradual, stroke is fast.

go back and read the links I put up on PT...THOSE were also my girls but they are also case histories as well on ratguide.com.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

I've read both of them through and watched videos, its very similar but i couldnt say for sure its the same?
guess theres not alot i can do but keep nursing her and hoping for the best?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> I've read both of them through and watched videos, its very similar but i couldnt say for sure its the same?
> guess theres not alot i can do but keep nursing her and hoping for the best?


does she headbump? does she have a funny stiffness with her legs (esp. forepaws), does she attempt to lick and instead chews on you, did she seem really confused (not just sick) finding her food, waterbottle etc?

She needs steroids and another ab. Is your vet willing to try at least?


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

she doesnt headbump or chew instead of lick, she can't walk let alone find food or water bottle she's completely dependent on me. she's not feeding properly anymore before she was grabbing the end of the syringe and licking and now i have to put it into the corner of her mouth and she sometimes swallows or sometimes she lets it back out.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

her fore paws are sometimes clenched but she can easily un clench them....when lying in her bed she quite often starts to clean the just leaves her paws up over her ears or nose.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> her fore paws are sometimes clenched but she can easily un clench them....when lying in her bed she quite often starts to clean the just leaves her paws up over her ears or nose.


by the time she gets to that stage most of the telling symptoms are gone.

What was she like before?

Mattie after her first stroke









Mattie = 3 days after her stroke


After her 2nd stroke, she needed a lot of help









She passed about 4 days later on christmas day

YOUR girl needs to be either taken to another vet, or taken back and insisting on steroids (prednisone) OR she needs to be pts if she is not eating well/much.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

the stroke looks more like it.....only her symptoms where very mild to begin with like losing the ability to climb ect started 3 or 4 weeks ago....isnt a stroke over night?
I've just rang my vets and insisted on another appointment they can't see me till the morning but if i get her through the night ill be taking her first thing in the morning....


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## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

Lilspaz's advice is very good, and I completely agree with it. 

While I'm all for vet's being honest about their opinion of the situation, this just seems like cruel and unusual treatment on their part. If her chances are that bad, then why are they only treating with Baytril and what's basically an antiparisitic? Neurological symptoms can sometimes be treated with steroids, not Baytril. I really don't understand how they figure a parasite could be causing all of this, either. If they guessed an infection of some sort, then why only Baytril and why call it possible neurological or a parasite?

If she's not even interested in food anymore, I'm afraid it's probably too late for your girl. The first few days are crucial in any illness with a rat, and for this to have gone on for so long I'm surprised she's only just now declining so rapidly. From the sounds of things it really does sound like it was just an inner ear infection. Just because the vet didn't see anything in the outer ear doesn't mean anything. They could have either missed what was there, or there may not have been any infection present in the *outer* ear, which is quite common with *inner* ear infections. Since it has gone untreated, it's very possible that the infection has gone systemic. Just Baytril is not going to fix that if there's a chance of her pulling through. If you can't find another exotic vet, then find one who is atleast willing to listen and won't send you home to let your girl suffer more and put you through ****. Print out the information from RatGuide about inner ear infections, the different medications that are used to treat that, and steroids. All of the information they could possibly need to properly treat your rat is there. 

Honestly at this point if you can't find a vet that's willing to really step up and try to pull her through this *NOW*, I would seriously suggest you consider having her humanely euthanized. She's only going to get worse with the current treatment and the best thing you can do for them sometimes is to let them go and save them from any more pain.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

It seems to me from what ive been reading which is almost every thing on the internet her syptoms all point towards PT stroke or ear infection which are all treated with Abs. and a steriod injection....why didnt my vet do that in the first place? how can a vet treat an animal they know nothing about?!?


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm so annoyed at myself for not gettin her to the vet sooner and for the vet for not treating her properly, i fear its to late too, if she was young id be furious but at least at 3 years old she's had some life. I'll be going back to the vets tomorrow to kick off


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## javakittie (Aug 18, 2007)

Most vets are working off of outdated knowledge. At some point, many of us have watched their vets brush the dust off of their medical journals about rodents. New information is available every day, and very few [even 'specialist' vets!] keep up to date with everything. I've even been referred to vets who are amazing with other exotics, but just plain suck with rats.

Try not to be too hard on yourself, but learn from this. We've all been through this at some point, and now you know for the next time. I adore my vet and she's very knowledgeable, but I still come home and double check everything she gives me, or go in after doing my own research.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

Unfortunatly, twilight will be being PTS at 2.20 this afternoon  after an eventful night of refusing to feed or drink i took her back to the vets this morning and asked either for a steriod injection or stronger Abs. The vet said she would give the steriod injection if i insisted but didn't want to and she really believes its not a PT and that cuz there is deffenatly infection some where it would suppress her immune system and she was really reluctant to treat something when she didnt know what it was, so i've brought twilight home for her last few hours for cuddles, i can't watch her suffer any more she's been lying on her side for 3 days now not moving, the vet said since she last saw her last her reactions had decreased and she was deff not gonna get better  
I'm one tearful and tired rat owner


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am so very very sorry twilight. give her a kiss and a cuddle for me.

No more pain, sweet girl...hold on a few more hours, and you will be at peace.


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## twilight123 (Feb 18, 2009)

will do, thanks so much for your help. i'm just about to go take her to the vets, her breathings gettin strange and she's wimpering a bit....its time for her to go im sure.
This is so hard! makes me never want any pets every again. everyones gonna look at me like im crazy at the vets crying like this over a rat....but she's my baby


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twilight123 said:


> will do, thanks so much for your help. i'm just about to go take her to the vets, her breathings gettin strange and she's wimpering a bit....its time for her to go im sure.
> This is so hard! makes me never want any pets every again. everyones gonna look at me like im crazy at the vets crying like this over a rat....but she's my baby


I have had over 40 losses since January 2008, I cry at the vets for every single one...you are not alone, don't forget. ((hugs))


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