# Opinions on breeding for Reptile food?



## Kiatora56 (Oct 9, 2010)

I know this will be a controversial topic here, but I want rat lover opinions on this.
Before I got my rat babies, I had two boy gerbils, that my boyfriend bred to feed his snake. I felt so horrible for them, and so mad at my boyfriend initially for breeding them as food. I could only own two, and took those two as my favorites.
Well, my opinions changed completely from the gerbils too my new rats. In fact, once his pets, the parents, passed, I talked to him about allowing my boys to impregnate a new female for him to continue breeding. This seems like a much better life than how the mice/rats are treated at petstores, or for the pre-killed/frozen-killed ones. He loves them likes his pets before they pass, and treats them very well.
Well, I admit, I love my new rattie babies much more than the previous gerbils. But this plan is still a thought. However, I wouldn't be able to witness the birth/raising of the rat babies, or the feeding. Would it be hard on my female rat to have her live with my boyfriend and a male rat while pregnant, if I still saw her frequently? Do you find this cruel, and if so, explain your reasoning. Snakes have to eat too, and I think it's hard to label these rats as "Pet" rats and others as "Feeder" rats.


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## rtivy (Jul 16, 2010)

Depending on how many snakes your boyfriend has you may need another rat to keep your female from being over bred


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

What kind/how many snakes?
Why not use Frozen thawed? 
If these are your pets....then you have a duty to care for them. Not let them breed for food.

For the health of the animal, they should not breed more then 2-3 times max.
I do not support this.

I have snakes, and could not have the heart to do such a thing.


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## Kiatora56 (Oct 9, 2010)

He has one ball python, that will not eat frozen. Period. The snake starved for 9 months, and still would not eat a frozen mouse.

I have two girls, and I might breed them both twice, but no more. He only bred his gerbils twice, then kept them as pets and bought mice so he didn't stress out the mother. This may seem very weird, but I have much more of a problem feeding pet store feeders and even frozen than him breeding. I love the snake just as much as my pets (we've been together for multiple years) and I don't like the thought of frozen/pet sotre mice or rats having horrible lives, being mass bred in unsanitary conditions, and then his money going to support their treatment. I would not have the heart to do the feeding itself, but I would rather know the rat babies are living good happy lives before being fed, rather than trying to force the snake into frozen again when I think frozen is much worse for the rats/mice themselves, except for the death (which we might be able to prekill, if there is a way to do so humanely)
Kiko, I'm considering not for your reasoning, but at the same time, if a rat is not my pet (I will not feed my rats) then I don't see why the new rats would be put higher up than other rats. Feeder rats are badly bred, and poorly treated, which is what I hope to avoid.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

have you tried natal rats? some people swear that they work far better because they are native to africa. i don't know if they're readily available frozen, but they are becoming more popular in feeder bins.

currently though there is no way to really humanely euthanize a rodent at home. some people say that co2 is humane, and i think it can be if it's done correctly, but it is a very precise process and one wrong move could mean the rats could suffer a very painful death or live through it and be severely injured :-[


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## Kiatora56 (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm pretty sure those aren't sold live around here, and definitely not frozen, there's a very few frozen selection. His ball is extremely picky, he even had to be weaned onto live mice. He was previously being fed gerbils as I said before, because my boyfriend talked to a pet store owner about the snake refusing mice and (at the time) being too small for rats, and he said sometimes even the pickiest snakes will eat gerbils. The snake did readily take gerbils, but after the two litters we managed to wean him to live mice.

That is quite sad =( still, the snake will not eat frozen thawed, so the situation of live feeding is unaviodable. If a mouse/rat has to go through it, I think it's better they have better lives before hand, and bad feeder breeders (who don't care about the animals' health) are not supported. Still open to opposing opinions though, and why/how it would be better for the mice or rats to buy feeders instead.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

It's such a touchy subject.

I am a huge snake lover, I have my own Ball Python so I understand the attachment, I have even been accused by rat owners as being 'evil'.

Since Pythons only need to eat 2-3 times a month I have a suggestion.

Get a male and a female gerbil as NON pets, breed then once. Separate the genders keep then in good health and care with wheels and good food.

Once that litter is done do it again with a DIFFERENT female. So that you never have to over breed and stress them.
I know to some of our members I may seem horrible, but as a snake owner also I understand that a problem feeder needs food and you just can't force a picky snake to eat frozen.

How big is your ball python? Mine is small at 2.7 feet shes a shrimpy snake and eats medium mice.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

A way to humanely pre-kill is to dislocate the neck. I'm not exactly sure how, but I believe you grab the head in one hand and the body in the other and pull the head upwards and back at the same time. I know there is a margin for error but I will never condone feeding live ever - even with the pickiest snakes. Even if you have to get an axe and chop the rats head off - its better than being thrown in a tank and fed live to a snake. Can you not hit it in the head with some force and stun it? Anything so it is not conscious. 

If you are going to start your own breeding program for feeders. Keep your male and females separate and only put them together long enough for him to in pregnant her. Have one litter at a time, no more than 2 litters per female. (Because you do not know their health history and you don't know what they can and can not handle.) Give them what they need, treat them right. I personally could never do it, but if its going to be done - please do it right.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I have an issue with neck dislocation. If done wrong the animal will be in more pain then it ever would be being eaten by a snake.

Problem eaters just will not eat anything but live. It's a fact of reptiles, I am lucky to have a snake that happily eats frozen. Some snakes can be force fed frozen but it's stressful and potentially dangerous for the snake
It's either let the snake die.
I don't support live feeding, but I also don't support holding the value of one life over another.
I think that's why the subject is so controversial :/


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm not sure which would be considered more painful really, because most pet snakes will constrict or crush their prey. I agree, there is a margin for error.... but if that majority of them get to experience a quick death... that I think thats a step in the right direction. Its not just pain when the snake gets them, its the fear and the possibility of harm to the snakes.
I used to think Co2 was humane, but I was informed that they experience nausea, burning of the airways and dizziness before they die - even if done right. 

Is death instant in a rat trap? Does anybody know? I was just thinking what if they made a machine that accurately broke their neck... but I think a rat trap is the closest you could ever get to that lol.

I do also agree with a comment posted earlier that we are hypocrites for eating meat... I love meat and won't be a vegetarian anytime soon but I still strongly disagree with the way animals are slaughtered. I do plan to raise my own meat, and they will all be shot for a quick death but until then theres nothing really I can do that will impact how how the animals are slaughtered. When I am buying it in the store, the deed is already done.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Speakings of rodents as food, I just went outside to get my cat and she waltzes on over with mouse guts hanging out of her mouth and drops me a gruesome little gift :- :-X


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I feel a little bit ill sigh.

This whole thing has been on my mind alot lately. I am gonna head over to some reptile boards and see if I can dig up any more info that might help.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Ugh I hate it when cats do that, mine are never aloud outside so luckily I have not personally had to see that.... but one time a fox got my rabbit and my whole garden was sprayed with blood and fur and the fox just took the head and left the rest for me to clean up :-\ my poor rabbit. 

Let us know if you find anything, I tried to do a bit of research myself a while back and couldn't find anything. I did see that Garter snakes can be fed a diet of fish and supplements instead of rodents... but thats about it. I guess no one really cares too much for the subject.


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## rtivy (Jul 16, 2010)

The rat trap idea would probably be the best way for a rat lover try using the plastic ones that snap down since it's got more space to kill it with. I know the wood traps will break their neck once it hits them but you only have that little bar so try one of them and it's probably about as close to instant death as you can get.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't think I could kill mice and rats myself. People are assuming that we snake owners have the heart to do these killings.
I am gonna feed frozen because it's the best bet as of now


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Its also looking at the bigger picture as well... and trying to come up with a solution that works for everyone involved. So that even the snake owners that can't kill rats or mice can feel better knowing they got them from a source that pre kills humanely. For example if the rat trap idea was 'the best way' then it could potentially be a tool pet stores or feeder breeders use to kill their rats. We can't go to them and demand they kill them humanly and treat them right if we can't offer a way for them to do it. 

I post on snake forums and try to pass some better husbandry tips onto the feeder breeders. I have found they are very open to hearing what you have to say! And even though I have to sugar coat things a bit... from my experience it can actually make some change for the good.


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## Kiatora56 (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm probably going to go along with the plan, buy a non-pet male rat, and breed both my females no more than twice. Since the rat will not breed in my home, and my boyfriend knows what he's doing as far as breeding goes (health-wise), I don't see the need really to get another gerbil. The gerbil's life is the same as a rat's, and gerbils are fattier and less healthy for the snake. Plus, we would have to feed less often if we fed rats.

Oh, and Kiko, my boyfriend's ball is at least 4 feet I'm sure. The snake is almost comparable to my height when he is stretched out.

As far as euthanasia goes, my boyfriend will continue to feed live. He does have to supervise the snake for it's own health, but he couldn't do something like neck dislocation especially. CO2 chamber--I would imagine that being painful either way. I've heard before when a rodent goes into extreme fear, it doesn't feel pain like it would otherwise. Thanks for the help, and definitely for the respectful and understanding responses.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Yep this is a forum I don't think I will be returning to. Could you not have asked all this on a pet snake forum? Instead of traumatizing people who come here to discuss their pets not how to feed and kill their pets?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Here is something I'm having a hard time understanding...

It is NOT ok to talk about responsible breeding for PETS, and it is NOT ok to say you are a breeder... and yet it is ok to talk about breeding rats for snake food and how to kill them??? How does that make sense?

I've seriously lost any respect I had for this forum...


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Don't be so dramatic!... its not an issue you can just turn a blind eye to and its something many pet rat owners feel strongly about. There have been LOTS of discussions of this sort on almost every rat forum I have visited. Were not discussing it for kicks... were have a discussion as rat lovers as to how we can actually make a difference on the issue if we present the feeder breeders with a way to do it. They are getting wrong info from other sources, because so far people have been too narrow minded to offer useful advice that might actually make a difference. For example several feeders breeders I spoke with honestly believed putting them in the freezer was 'humane' because thats what they had read. If me talking about this will make the smallest difference to rats lives, then I see no harm in this discussion. If you don't like it - DON'T READ + REPLY! Our conversation was between members, I have no idea of the relevance of Kiatora56 post. Rats certainly feel pain, and fear. Obviously this poster was not in our conversation or really reading/understanding what we were saying.

And the rules were changed here remember. You can say your a breeder, just don't advertise your litters here. I believe thats what we agreed on, it seemed to change so many times to suit the people changing it.


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