# aquarium + wire? opinions?



## dimlights (Oct 26, 2007)

I went searching for a cage at a different pet store today. (I don't have rats yet - but I'm going to go ahead and get a cage and give my mother time to get used to the idea. )

I saw this super cool add-on thingy. It sits ON TOP of a 10gallon aquarium. It's called like a "small pet high-rise" or something silly like that. It adds two additional WIRE levels to the aquarium (with ramps). 

I know rats in aquariums is not great because they like to be able to smell and have clean air, but it seems to me this would be the best of both worlds, so to speak -- bottom level glass, to fully contain potty messes (and less smelly? maybe?? still worried about that ), top levels wire to see/smell/interact with the world. 

Whattdya experts think? 

(I also got to hold a rat at the pet store -- he was very friendly and snuggled up into my shirt. I felt really bad for the rats at this particular store, as there were 5+ per small glass cage, and at least one of them had weird scabbies around his eyes that didn't look good. 8O  )


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## Phobie (Jun 3, 2007)

I think we'd need to see a picture, can you google it or maybe ebay, and try and find an example?

Also what petstore is it? Be careful of places like petco etc, big name stores, they treat their animals very badly and often the rats don't last long, so to speak.


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## dimlights (Oct 26, 2007)

I know - I am definitely NOT getting a rat itself from that store. It is a Petco, and like I said, their rats were all squished together (well, they were all sleeping on top of each other  but the cage obviously wasn't big eough for that many) and at least one of them looked to have obvoius health problems (scabs around the eyes). I have found a locally-owned pet store that I will buy the rat itself from. 

I was only at Petco because they have a much better selection of cages. 

Here is a picture of what I'm talking about: 










The wire part is only $40, and then you get the tank separately. It looks like they have versions for other sizes of tanks, too, online.

ETA: Dimensions are 21wx11, 5dx18h inches


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## Phobie (Jun 3, 2007)

I've never heard of this type of thing, I don't know why it would be a problem. Remember to use the cage calculator to make sure it's big enough!

You'll have to get the advice of one of the more knowlegeable ratty owners on here, they know more than me. My main concern would be cleaning, how easy will it be to clean the bottom, as in the tank bit, etc.


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## magickat (Oct 19, 2007)

Definitely look on Ebay. There is a guy selling these, but with more levels for the same price and the edges have those plastic guards on them and the openings are big corner openings.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I wouldn't go this route. Tanks, even with toppers, can be horrible for ventilation and while you mayn't smell it as much, the ratties will! You'd have to clean it daily, most likely, or every other day.

I'd go for a good wire cage.


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## Mana (Apr 22, 2007)

I agree with Forensic. Even with toppers, tanks aren't good. In addition to what Forensic said, 10 gallons do not provide enough room for rats. They do like to climb, but they also need to to be able to run around and play with each other. I have a 10 gallon that I'm pretty sure is standard size, and it's only about 10" wide. I personally recommend at least 16" wide for girls or 18" for boys.

A good wire cage is always better than any sized tank or tank with topper! And not much more expensive at that.


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## CaptainFlow (May 16, 2007)

I used to have a tank/topper setup long ago, and believe me, a wire cage is the way to go. The first time I cleaned my new wire cage, I could not BELIEVE I'd spent all those years being such a chump cleaing that heavy aquarium. So even if it was okay for your rats (which it's really not, for all the aforementioned reasons), you would learn to hate yourself for having to clean that thing.


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## dimlights (Oct 26, 2007)

And that's exactly why I asked before buying. :lol: 

Going to ANOTHER pet store to look at wire cages tonight.


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## simbakitten (Oct 10, 2007)

lol i wish i was as smart as you when i bought my first cage..i bout a huge ank and a topper....well u can guess what hapened, but i managed to return it


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

Late to the party, but I'll still say my piece. 

Tank toppers won't do anything for the (important) pitfalls of using tanks. Tanks often need to be cleaned daily, as not only does the ammonia buildup, but they STINK if you don't.

That aside, a 10 gallon tank, topper or not, is much too small for even a single rat.


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## simbakitten (Oct 10, 2007)

a bit off topis but kimmiekind, howcome this is only the second time ive seen you and you've got 620 post?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

simbakitten said:


> a bit off topis but kimmiekind, howcome this is only the second time ive seen you and you've got 620 post?


Because you've only been here since the 10th?


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## glindella (Sep 9, 2007)

simbakitten said:


> a bit off topis but kimmiekind, howcome this is only the second time ive seen you and you've got 620 post?


Shes all over the forums


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

Um, yeah. I've replied to many of your posts.


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## :Ash: (Feb 25, 2007)

That's actually exactly the set up I have for my girls. It's a good option if you have one or two rats. To address the cleaning issue I only clean out my girls cage once a week and they do fine in it. It stays pretty clean and they've never had any health problems.


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## CaptainFlow (May 16, 2007)

Honestly, what is it is that they don't have any health problems _yet_. 

I went through the whole gammut- first I had my boys in only a 10 gallon tank (I cringe at the thought now, but I was young, and the petstore guy said it was okay!). I think they were reasonably okay. 

Then I got a topper, and noticed a definate increase in life quality and expentancy. 

And THEN I got a wire cage, and there is no doubt in my mind, from my own personal experience, that a tank is no substitute for a good wire cage. If you're only cleaning the tank once a week (and even that is a pain in the butt for tanks, I remember), that's not nearly enough, the ammonia is definately getting to dangerous levels for them. If I have to spot clean every day because of smell in a wire cage, just imangine what that's like building up in their home! Just because you can't smell it as well doesn't mean they can't.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

Ash - The biggest problem is it's not big enough. A 10 gal. tank (topper or not) will never be suitable for rats. Each rat needs 2 _cubic_ feet of space. Considering the width of a 10 gallon tank, that will never be possible.

If you MUST use an aquarium for a home, PLEASE use one that is at least 40 gallons or larger. At LEAST. I'd recommend something over 100 gallons. The biggest drawback, of course, is that rats WANT and LOVE to climb.

Here's from the Ratguide under housing:



> Aquariums
> Glass aquariums are easy to locate at your local pet stores and come in a variety of sizes and heights. You will want to be sure that your aquarium has a cover that locks down to prevent your rat from escaping. Special water bottle must be obtained for tanks that are made specifically to hang from the edges. *A 10-gallon tank is too small to house a rat and should only be used as a temporary environment or for a medical necessity.*
> 
> Some people prefer to house their rats in aquariums. Many find them easier to clean than bulky cages. Bedding and food stay contained within the ratâ€™s home instead of ending up on the floor. For people with multiple rats in small groups aquariums generally take up less room than cages. Also, aquariums tend to be less drafty than cages, which is often good if you have a hairless rat, a new litter, or an ill rat that needs to be kept warm and quiet.
> ...


http://ratguide.com/care/environment/housing_needs.php

Adding a topper to a 10 gallon tank does NOT make it suitable. The same issues exist, topper or not.


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## dimlights (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess I don't really understand how a 10-gallon aquarium could "never" be the right size. I can't even picture how big a 10-gallon one is, but I don't understand why adding additional levels wouldn't make it big enough. Or do rats do lots of long-distance running that I don't know about?? (It's very possible ) 

This forum seems to spend a lot of time telling people they are bad rat owners instead of considering that they must be at least good for something if they are here in the first place! 


Anyway...on the actual topic, due to the advice here I scrapped that idea and ended up buying a fully-wire cage with a metal pan. It is dubbed as a "small animal" cage, I believe sized for rabbits (but with very little space in between the wires). According to the calculator it is "barely" big enough for the ratties I will be getting. I am currently collecting materials for additional levels, etc.  

I work at a clothing manufacturer/distributor, so I have access to cheapcheapcheap overruns/mistakes/etc. I'm going to try to make a little hammock out of a baseball cap, and I will also have plenty of tshirts & sweatshirts for bedding materials. 

I'll also probably get one of those "high rise" add-ons to put with my cage when ratties-to-be actually _are_.

As always...I appreciate the advice of this forum, but can't we all be a LITTLE less judgemental???


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## glindella (Sep 9, 2007)

I understand where you're coming from about the attitudes, but honestly, do you want good info or not? Anyone can tell you anything, and trust me they will. Judgment is a natural part of life and it all seems much harsher on the internet than it really is. Don't take it personally, keep your mind open to other peoples experiences and trust _your_ judgment (or forensics hehehe)


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

2 cubic feet is a 15"x15"x15" cube. A 10 gallon tank is about 20"x10"x12". Now, I'm bad at math, but even I can see that, as I stated, a 10 gallon will never be big enough. It will never be wide (front to back) enough, no matter how many levels are added. Even if you were to allow one cubic feet per rat, that's still 12"x12"x12", and the tank still isn't wide enough. It's been studied, and the best cage size for each rat is 2 cubic feet, but 1.5 may be "good enough".

I am not being judgmental at all, thank you. I am stating facts - a 10 gallon aquarium is not a suitable cage for rats. It would be comparable to a human living in a very small, glass-enclosed closet. Would you want to do that?

An adult rat in a 10 gallon tank has very little room to even turn around. Larger adult rats are *LONGER* than a 10 gallon tank, if they were to stand with their noses to the front, rear ends to the back. Is it really judgmental to say that isn't appropriate? They can not comfortably turn around! If people are going to rat FANCIER forums, they are seeking advice. The advice is that 10 gallon aquariums are NOT suitable. I honestly don't see what you're upset about, here.

I see what happens to rats that spend their lives in a 10 gallon tank (often, many rats share one). We get them "dumped" on us because they bite, have behavior issues (being forced to live in a small home can mess with the mind) and get sick (resp. issues from ammonia buildup). Please do NOT assume I am being judgmental because I advocate using appropriate cages for these animals. If you're going to have a pet, shouldn't you give it the best life possible?


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

No one is being judgemental in stating the fact that a 10 gallon tank is not big enough. The simple fact of the matter is that a 10 gallon doesn't offer the space needed for an adult or growing rat. No one is calling the OP a bad rat owner, as many of us started in the same place she did, myself included. We learn by asking questions and getting answers, and of course trial and error. 

I used a 10 gallon for a temporary cage when I got my first two rats (until my grotto was built), and if you don't believe it's too small, I'll find the pictures for you next time I visit my parents.


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## Mana (Apr 22, 2007)

I just quickly snapped a couple pics of two of my adult girls in my 10 gallon tank.



















They're nearly as long as the length of the tank, and bigger than the width. They barely have room to move around, much less run or play.

Like I said before, no matter how high you build onto the tank, they just will not have enough room. They would have room to climb, but they also need room to move around freely without being cramped.

No one is being judgemental. We're just letting you know what is and isn't suitable for rats. No one's judging you for asking about tanks and toppers - we're just responding to the topic. It's great that you're asking and getting information!


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