# Wobbling Rat?



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hi! I'm new here but I have 3 dwarf rattie boys. Captain is 2 years old, and the other two, Butters and Taz are just over 1 year. 

2 weekends ago we went to get the boys out to play like we do every night, and noticed Butters didn't come to the front to be picked up. We didn't think much of it and then decided to check about 30 minutes later. We found him laying in his bed, lethargic and limp and hardly moving.

We took him to the vet first thing in the mroning and the vet couldn't think of what might be wrong. He weighed in at .18 grams I think...I don't know how that stacks up to other dwarf rats, besides the fact that the other 2 boys are much bigger. She guessed pneumonia, although he didn't show any signs of labored breathing or wheezing or anything. He just wasn't moving or eating/drinking.

Anyway, she prescribed enrofloxacin and doxycycline and we gave it to him twice daily all week. He seemed to be on the mend and got better every day. Now he's finished with the antibiotics, but is starting to act weird.

He's wobbly and his fur is kind of prickly and standing up. His eyes are clear and he otherwise looks healthy. Do you know what might be causing this? Is he getting "sick" again? Are there side effects to the meds? He looks skinny too...do you have any ideas on how to get him to eat?


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Is he tilting his head to the side at all? Watch him when he runs around - is there a direction he prefers to turn to?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

No, he seems to be wobbling to both sides and just is kind of walking, not running like he usually does. 

We gave them some peas (their favorite) and when he was eating them using his two front paws, he would keep losing his balance and put them down on the floor.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Loss of use in the forelimbs is a symptom often seen in rats with pituitary tumors - give this page a read and see if the symptoms match up.

http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for the reply and info!

I don't think it's that, but will bring it up with the vet tomrorow just in case. The only symptom seems to be weight loss, but I wasn't sure if that was a side effect to the antibiotics.

They really improved his condition: he went from laying limply on his side, mouth open, porphyrin from his eyes and nose to running around, playing, drinking/eating/pooping etc. Now, a few days later, he seems to be moving slower, a little wobbly, and a little spiky fur.

I don't know if it's something completely different or the same 'thing' coming back again. Maybe the meds weren't long enough? Or maybe coming off of them is throwing him off?

Do you (or anyone) have experience with antibiotics and their effects?


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I've never experienced any side effects using baytril or doxy... Other than occasional diarrhea, but that cleared up when i started feeding probiotic yogurt between doses.

You could supplement him with Ensure or Boost pudding in a needleles syringe, oatmeal with mashed banana, avocado fruit (avoid around the skin and pit), low protein dog kibble, and other high calorie foods.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

that sounds great! I'm going to the store (literally right now, at 10:15 at night haha) and get some of those things to hopefully plump him up a bit and to get something in his tummy.


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

If you want to give ensure or boost or anything else with calcium in it make sure to wait 2 hours after the doxy as calcium has been shown to bind with the cyclin family of drugs and make them less effective. In doxycyclin its not as bad as tetracyclin but still better to wait a bit.


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

If the antibiotics helped I'd be inclined to think your vet was on the right track with a respiratory infection/pneumonia, however it sounds like the course was way too short which is why Butters relapsed once it was over.

You mentioned treating 'all week' - was it just a 7 day course the vet prescribed? If yes there's your problem.

Pneumonia needs to be treated aggressively and for a decent amount of time.

I suggest you print out this article and take it in with you so the vet can refer to it.

http://ratguide.com/health/lower_respiratory/pneumonia.php

Now it does talk about dosing baytril and doxy for '10-30 days' however in my experience anything under 2 weeks isn't long enough and I don't treat now for under 3. In your case I'd be pushing for the max 30 days mentioned _as a minimum_.

If Butters breathing is laboured I'd also ask about a steroid injection as this can help enormously while waiting for the antibiotics to kick in.

Regarding the wobbliness and dropping of food I've not experienced that (I've not had a rat with pneumonia though) but I'd wonder if rather than being a symptom its simply a result of him feeling weak and unwell. His balance could also be off if the inner ear is infected.

Good luck with the vet. I hope he'll be okay.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

My vet also tries to cut courses short as well. Three weeks should really be the minimum.

I just find it strange that he is not experiencing any of the typical signs of pneumonia - no prior symptoms, no labored breathing, sneezing, chest rattling, gasping, etc. 

It is interesting that he responded to the antibiotics, but baytril and doxy are used to treat more than just respiratory infections, so it still could be something else. An inner ear infection can be treated with baytril/doxy and that would make a bit more sense than pneumonia.. Not much more unfortunately 

What exactly did the vet do to check up on him? Swelling and fluid in the lungs would be visible on an x-ray if it were pneumonia. Were they a qualified exotic vet, or just the general/emergency vet?


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Jaguar said:


> I just find it strange that he is not experiencing any of the typical signs of pneumonia - no prior symptoms, no labored breathing, sneezing, chest rattling, gasping, etc.



Again I've not experienced pneumonia (touch wood) but I've heard from those who have that it can come on quickly with no apparent symptoms and even after it's diagnosed there aren't necessarily the sounds you'd expect. 

There's also a RMCA article which states that a rat with 'no symptoms' one day can have full blown pneumonia the next. 

Until I experience this sudden onset myself I'm more inclined to think early (possibly subtle) signs were there, but were missed. Plus we know how good rats can be at hiding illness...


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I have experienced pneumonia (still struggling with it) and while it went from general sneezy/sniffles to wheezing and coughing fluid the next day, there were a lot of symptoms beforehand. They are very good at hiding illnesses though. I would think that he would have been at least a little wheezy and congested while at the vet or in the first day or two of treatment, though it is still very possible.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Digitalangel: thank you for the tip about the calcium! We will definitely separate by a few hours!

Zoe9: Yes! I had no idea! The vet prescribed .04 ml of enrofloxacin twice a day (in the notes on the paper she gave us it said it was a mixture of 2 22.7 mg tablets mixed with water and valsyrup). She also prescribed 0.1 ml of doxycycline. And gave us a critical care packet that you mix with water to give if he's not eating. We're definitely going back to get more antibiotics today!!! I definitely think there may have been signs that we missed, and are possibly overly sensitive to his every movement now. But he definitely seemed "normal" for the most part until we found him laying and not moving that night.

Jaguar: the vet didn't do much. It was a 24 hour emergency clinic, and while they said they specialized in small animals, she mainly did a visual check-up: looked at him, felt for lumps or obtrusions, and listened to his breathing with a stethoscope (lol and they charged us almost $200 dollars...ha!). I agree though, he doesn't show many of the pneumonia symptoms and even the doc wasn't convinced it was it. I think that these general antibiotics maybe treated something else that we didn't know about (without bloodwork, xrays, etc). I'm still grateful (and in a little bit of shock) that he's back though.


Do you think that the amount of antibiotics prescribed twice daily is 'safe' for Butters' body weight of .18 grams? We just want to make sure the vet knows what she is doing, and you guys are so knowledgeable! At first we were worried the antibiotics were overpowering him, but now it seems he wasn't on them long enough!!

Thank you guys so much for your help and quick replies!!


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Also: I've read about amoxicillin on the web (and searched it on this site too). We don't want to self medicate him and the vet was quite against it, but I found a website that says vets often will say that but it's been known to help:

http://www.ratfanclub.org/resp.html

http://ratfanclub.org/firstaid.html

again since the antibiotics seemed to have worked, I don't want to throw anything else into the mix. But I'm thinking about getting some at the fish store (the only one in town that actually carried it) for some "just in case" moments with Butters or his two brothers.

Oh! An update on Butters too: right now he's up with us and is moving slow, and is kind of wobbly still. But at least he is up and not laying on his side or anything. Hopefully we'll be able to get his antibiotics rolling so he won't get to the point that he was at before!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Hmmm...he's young but is it possible your boy had a stroke? Does he seem weaker on one side or the other?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

you know, I don't think he's had a stroke. He doesn't seem weaker on one side, just kind of walking around (whereas running...he's the most curious and energetic boy of the bunch). He just looks uncomfortable. 

We just got back from the vet and they gave us another week's worth of antibiotics. When we get towards Friday though I'm going back for more. I don't want to risk this reoccuring.

Just out of curiosity: is there such a thing as over-doing antibiotics? I want to do the 30 days as suggested, but if it's not pneumonia, I don't want to give him too much. Is there anything I need to watch out for in terms of it having a negative effect on him instead of a positive one?


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

alison03 said:


> . And gave us a critical care packet that you mix


Was this critical care packet for rabbits? If so its almost useless for rats. If it was for ferrets/cats its way too high protein 

On your question about ammoxicillin while it can be a useful drug if used correctly its also a very old drug and most bacteria are now pretty resistant to it. In rats one of the main bacteria they carry is mycoplasma which has to be killed by very specific antibiotics because it has no cell wall.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

It is for rabbits! 

Do you think it's no good for him? He hates it anyway and we almost never got him to eat it, even via syringe. We had more luck with baby food and now ensure.


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Its got lots of yummy grasses that rabbits need, I don't blame him for not liking it. "Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ, " are the first few ingredients.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

lol, I read the ingredients and I was like, "hmmm...he won't like this" and sure enough. By useless, do you think it just won't help him any, so no need to keep trying to feed it to him?


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

meal replacement baby food and baby cereal will do far more good


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

what is meal replacement baby food? Is that like chicken dinner and rice, for example? thanks for all of your help!!!


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Sorry, I should have put a comma in there. Meal Replacement like boost or ensure.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Oh that's funny! I was wondering what meal replacement baby food was!! ;D

We will definitely continue with our Ensure, baby food, and oatmeal supplements.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

How long does baby food in the fridge last? Butters only eats maybe 0.8 ml a day and obviously there is way more baby food than that. Does it freeze? Am I supposed to throw it away and just buy more food every so often? 

Also I've noticed that he's getting really wobbly and moving slower...hopefully the meds start to kick in and help. The only thing he eats (that we see) are peas. Is this filling/heavy? I just want to make sure he's eating enough, and he really seems to devour them when we put them out. 

Thanks!


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Baby food will keep a couple of days in the fridge. You don't have to throw it all out though. If Butters likes it give it to him. Peas alone aren't enough and you need to help him keep his strength up so he can get better.

It can be hard for a sick rat to eat their usual food so offering soft, easy to eat alternatives is recommended. Baby food works well, as does avocado, mashed banana, porridge/oats, ensure etc.

Meanwhile how long has he been back on meds for? Unfortunately because the first course was too short it's possible the stronger bacteria survived and multiplied and they're what the drugs are fighting now, so you may not see improvement quite as quickly as you did the first time.

If he's not improving after 3-4 days, or if he gets worse you will need to get him back to the vet, preferably one who does treat rats and won't muck about with silly 7 day courses...

Good luck.


----------



## Ratatoullies (Feb 26, 2010)

"Just out of curiosity: is there such a thing as over-doing antibiotics?"

Yes you can over-do antibiotics. Antibiotics are very hard on their systems. To be honest, I was really shocked that internet articles were saying 30 days. I really think that's a lot. I know that the yogurt, however helps a lot! It replaces the good bacteria. The antibiotics work against both good and bad unfortunately. 

I think you should check out this website. 

http://www.justanswer.com/veterinary?r=PPC|ga|2|Pet+-+Gadgets|Gadgets&TP=normal-336x280&JPRC=1&JPAF=gadget&gclid=CP-pxtLwl6ACFQMhDQodjw73eQ 

It tells you how many vets are online and they answer your questions immediately. You have to pay a small fee, but I think it's well worth it. Especially because it sounds like your vet doesn't know much about small animals. Honestly, I think vet offices don't have many people that went to school for small animals too and so they pick the person who has the most experience even if they aren't very experienced at all. People have just started bringing their rats and hamsters and rabbits to the vet in recent years. Vet didn't used to know how to treat them at all. It surprises me, though that they do all this research on lab rats and yet it seems like they sure don't know very much about them. Anyways. hope the website helps a little.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thank you guys for the replies. 

Yeah, I am totally worried that "it's" back and stronger. The one plus is he isn't as weak as before (ie he isn't just laying on his side). He's moving (although slowly) but still takes treats, cleans himself, eats peas etc. Hopefully this next round of antibiotics helps.

Gall, I'm now worried about overdoing antibiotics with him. He's so small...but it's like how do I know when to stop? 1 week obviously wasn't enough (even though he seemed perfectly fine and back to normal by the end of treatment). 2 weeks? A month like the article said? It's like how will I know when he's actually better and not just looking better? I don't want to cut it short (and have it come back stronger) and I don't want to harm him by giving him antibiotics if he's all better!


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I was reading about liver cancer in ferrets today and couldn't find anything about it in rats. Not that I necessarily think he has that, but some of the ferret symptoms in ferrets is lethargy, weakness, loss of apetite, and weight loss. Wnated to look into it further, and didn't know if you guys had any info or insight!


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Lethargy, weakness, loss of appetite and weight loss are pretty common symptoms for most types of illnesses though.

Because Butters responded well to antibiotics that'd indicate you are dealing with a bacterial infection.

How long has he been back on meds for and is he showing any improvement?


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Also just to address your concerns regarding this fear of 'overdoing' the antibiotics, in my experience and understanding, you're way better off to 'overdo' than 'underdo' them.

Yes antibiotics can upset the tummy but using probiotics alleviates that so it shouldn't be a huge concern. 

I have also asked my vet in the past about keeping rats on antibiotics long term and he told me it won't hurt them.

Underdosing though will. If you end the course before all the bacteria are killed the stronger more resistant ones are allowed to remain and populate. Unfortunately antibiotics misuse is way too common these days and underdosing is one of the reasons why we now have these 'super bugs' that won't respond to anything. 

In my experience I’ve found treating for under 14 days is too short and the infection will often return once the course is over. Now if I'm treating my rats for a respiratory infection the length of their course will range from 3 – 6 weeks. Some people will even treat for up to 12 weeks, especially if dealing with a stubborn myco flare-up. However a conservative rule would be to treat for at least a week after all the symptoms have gone.

Meanwhile rats with ongoing/chronic problems can be on a maintenance course of antibiotics every day for the rest of their lives. Others can be on long term pulsed treatment. If used correctly the long term use of antibiotics shouldn't harm them. The opposite in fact. They help keep them well and alive.

If you're worried then speak to an experienced exotics vet about it. Or even your doctor as they should be able to explain how antibiotics work just as well.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thank you so much! I suppose it is fairly common symptoms, huh? I think I might have overreacted a tad. 

Butters did get back onto antibiotics Saturday night. He seems to be about the same...not better, but not worse. He's still moving around slowly and is wobbly. 

However he does eat peas and granola and we feed him yogurt, Ensure, and some baby food via syringe too (which he hates).

The first time, he was completely immoble: laying on his side, eyes closed, mouth open and completely lethargic. He did get back to normal after 1 week (when the antiobiotics ran out) and now he's at his current state. Hopefully it'll help again, and will keep it going. Thanks for the info re: antibiotics, it's good to know longer is better than shorter. If the docs think we'll have to do this forever, we absolutely will. I definitely won't let there be a 'break' again...I'm glad I know now to keep it going.

Thank you SO MUCH for your replies, all this knowledge is incredible and reassuring and informative.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

One more thing to add to symptoms: we noticed that today Butters seems to be shaking. Like more than shivering: he'll just shake his body around for about 4 or 5 seconds and then stop and go on about his business. I have no idea why he's doing this!


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Is it jerking motions, like he's trying to cough silently?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

It's hard to tell. He usually does it hidden away from us, and I only 'catch' him because I'm sitting in front of his cage following him around with my eyes. I couldn't see his face, just the back of his body. 

Any thoughts about this? 

It's weird that he's exhibiting different 'symptoms' than before.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

The repetitive jerking/coughing thing is a sign of a respiratory problem. It can be silent, or they can wheeze, cough, squeak, etc. while doing it. Their upper body kinda jerks forward quickly once or twice a second. It kind of looks like they're coughing/sneezing repetitively. I tried to find a video, but couldn't :-\ I'll see if I can get one when Miles does it next.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I see. That could definitely be it. I'll see if I can get him on film as well. He usually hides when he does it, which I find odd. He'll go to a corner and I can only see his backside shaking. Then he'll come back out! 

My fiance thinks (just a guess, not based on anything) it might be his nervous system because it's such a weird twitchy motion. I'll check again next time he does it to see if I can see what his mouth is doing.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Yeah, we just put Butters back in his cage. They always get a small treat when they go home, and so we gave him a little yogurt drop. His head was wobbling back and forth that it was hard for him to grab it from our fingers. He just seems really wobbly and jerky all around. I have no idea what is causing this! The meds haven't seemed to change anything since Saturday. :'( :-\


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

It makes me wonder, silent pneumonia?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm not familiar! Is he exhibiting common symptoms of it? The shaking thing is weird because he hasn't done it before (like when he first got sick). 

I'll try to google it now.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Quick question regarding Ensure: we are giving it to him twice a day via syringe, along with yogurt, baby food (prunes, oatmeal with apples and bananas, mac and cheese, chicken and veggie dinner etc), frozen peas and corn (warmed in the microwave), occasional canned fruit (he doesn't really like it fresh), fresh sweet potatoes, and avocado. 

He seriously does not look like he's gaining weight. If anything, he looks and feels skinnier than before. I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong: or is it the antibiotics? He hates the syringe but between meds twice a day (that's 4 syringes) and then all those meals, I can't think of how to give him any more food without stressing him out!

Any suggestions of how to help him gain weight? What else to feed him?


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

If he hates the syringe will he eat it if you put it in a really flat dish in front of him, or if you put it on your finger? Is the sweet potato raw? it needs to be cooked. Do you have a kitchen scale? I picked up a cheap digital scale and its a great way to keep track of a sick rats weight. Rats need to eat constantly due to their metabolism so maybe offer the ensure more often.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

3 weeks is a good length of time for a course of meds. Debbie D often suggests 6 weeks, which I agree is too long unless you are really fighting something nasty.

Rule of thumb is when all symptoms are gone, keep medicating for one more week.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

digitalangel: the sweet potato is definitely cooked. He doesn't eat it if we put it in front of him or put it on our fingers. Only peas and corn. The rest he doesn't touch, and if we try leaving it in the cage, our other 2 boys will eat it (we had them separated for quite some time, but circumstances had us bring him home and he seems sooooo much happier).

We will look into getting a scale to weigh him. I know he's super small compared to his brothers (always has been though) but he is feeling reaaaally skinny.

lilspaz68: thanks for the info! We will definitely make sure to keep it up...so far nothing has improved since we 're-started' meds last Saturday.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Butters seems to be getting worse. Any thoughts on if the meds could be causing this? :-[

I wonder if this illness is different than what he had before. He never got to the point of lethargy as the first time (recap: we found him 3 weeks ago laying on his side, not moving...then after about 1 week of meds he was up and about like magic. Within a day or two, he started moving slower and wobbling around and we restarted the same meds last Sat. Now he is MORE wobbly and MORE unstable and has LESS energy than before we restarted it).

Could it just be that he's weak due to weight loss? We feed him via syring as often as we can but he doesn't seem to be putting on weight. Could it be effects of the antibiotics? It looks like it's involuntary and maybe his nervous system? The shaking is side to side more than up and down like a cough or sneeze. It almost looks like it's his legs that are having a hard time or something.

One note: he has light red eyes and ever since he was a baby did that head scan/sway thing. Dont know if this has anything to do with what is happening now though. The breeder said it was normal. :-\


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

It's very unlikely the meds are making him sick. Whatever illness he has is making him sick and sadly it sounds like the meds aren't working this time. 

With antibiotics if you're not seeing an improvement after 3-4 days you need to look at different antibiotics or combos. There's no point keeping rats on antibiotics if they're not helping. All that does is allow the bacteria to gain resistance.

So it's been one week since he was back on baytril and doxy, yes? If you haven't seen any improvement and he's now getting worse you need to get back to the vet. I strongly recommend getting his lungs x-rayed as that way the vet can get a better idea of what's going on and if it is pneumonia look at other treatments. As mentioned in my first post a steroid like dexamethasone can help a lot, as can a bronchodilator. As for antibiotics ask the vet about swapping out the doxy for zithromax or even clavamox.

If this is pneumonia and you leave things as they are now I'm afraid he will die on you. I'm not saying this to upset you. I'm saying it so you can get him the help and treatment he needs, even if it means phoning around and driving a distance to a different, more experienced, vet

As for the head swaying it's not related. Rats have bad eyesight, and red/pink eyed rats are the worst and they sway like that because it helps their depth perception.

Best of luck to you both.


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

alison03 said:


> One note: he has light red eyes and ever since he was a baby did that head scan/sway thing. Dont know if this has anything to do with what is happening now though. The breeder said it was normal. :-\


That is normal. Rats have rubbish eyesight anyway - those with pink and ruby eyes having even worse eyesight. Some rats with black eyes sway too. It's to build up an image of what they're seeing.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for the reassurance on his eyes.

Do you guys know why the meds worked the first time and aren't working anymore? A new strain? We will bring him in and ask about the antibiotics you mentioned. It's just so weird that he's getting worse. I thought for sure he'd be better by now


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

alison03 said:


> Do you guys know why the meds worked the first time and aren't working anymore?


I don't think we can know for sure. At a guess I'd say because the first course was too short. Not all the bacteria were killed and the stronger surviving bacteria multiplied and that's what you were dealing with the second time and the drugs simply weren't strong enough. 

Antibiotics also stop working if the bacteria mutate and become resistant. I don't know how quickly that can happen though and I’d be surprised if that were the case here as you only had a week (I think) between treatments. I do know bacteria can multiply very quickly though so anything is possible.

Again good luck at the vet. I hope he'll be alright.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm feeling quite frustrated. Called the emergency vet and they need to see him, which I understand. But they don't think they want to give him more antibiotics of any kind- they want to do bloodwork, x-rays, and an oxygen tank, estimating a bill of over a couple hundred dollars. I understand x-rays, and possibly bloodwork, but the price is crazy. And then they want us to take him to an exotic specialist for another exam (ie do it all over again) - costing over one hundred dollars just for the basic exam, and then adding fees for everything else. We've already paid two hundred dollars in the last few weeks for his visit and antibiotics alone. I don't see why they can't see him and try other antibiotics, like the ones mentioned above. ???

I guess I'm feeling upset like they're trying to take advantage of the situation and don't want to actually help. Probably an overreaction, but I don't see why they need to do all of those thigns first. I'm now calling around to find other vets in the area: some of which that will be open tomorrow/Monday (our regular one isn't). 

Do you guys know how amoxicillin works? We found a local fish store that sell capsuls of it and we are thinking of trying to use it on him. Read on here that it sometimes helps, and I'm at my wits end. Or should we just bring him into that place and let them do all those tests? and then what? Surgery? he weighs .18 grams! He wouldn't even survive that. What are other options? Just feel like crying. :'( He's really gone downhill today. Back to where he was in the very beginning. He can't even walk anymore. 

As an aside: I noticed that Butters has started to poop and sometimes pee when we syringe feed him meds/food (like he literally does it in our hands). Is he trying to tell us something? We aren't squeezing him or feeding too fast, but are we hurting him? Is he just upset?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Wow, I kind of boarded the crazy train in my last post. I seriously just feel so desperate and exhausted and frustrated. :'(

One question before I try to get some sleep: should we go the amoxicillin route (still not 100% we will), can anybody help me with the dosage? I've read the rat info pages on it, but am still completely confused. it says this here: http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/amoxicillin.php 

Dosage Recommendations
10 mg/lb , PO , BID 4
Given over 10 to 14 days. 
10 mg/lb to 50 mg/lb , PO , BID 3

Butters weighs about (though probably less than now) 0.18 grams. The vet has prescribed 0.1 ml of doxycycline and 0.4 ml of Baytril twice a day (for reference). 

I belive the fish store said they sell amoxicillin in 100 mg tablets, but will of course know for sure when we get there tomorrow morning. Any help with this would be great.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

anybody? We bought the amoxicllin (250 mg per tablet) and I'm now trying to figure out how to get it into a liquid form. Does anybody know how?


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

I would not give the amoxicllin. This emergency vet doesn't really seem to know the best course of action for rats. Can you not consult with the exotics vet directly?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

we won't be able to talk to a doctor until Tuesday. They are closed Sunday's and don't have any doctors in on Monday's. 

I called 3-4 emergency vets last night and none of them specialize in 'pocket animals' and didn't know what to do. I just don't think he'll make it to Tuesday on Bayril and Doxycycline, considering he's steadily declined over the last week. We just don't know what to do for the next 2 days if we don't do amoxicillin. 

Any thoughts as to why you don't think we should use it? Could it harm him? We've read on here and on other rat care sites that it's helped with secondary infections...granted I don't know if that's what he needs but since whatever he has is no longer responding to the meds, we're at a loss.


----------



## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

I am sorry to hear things are going so badly. If Butters is now at the point where he's having to be force fed (the poos when doing this indicate stress or fear by the way, so safe to say he's not happy) and is just lying there I'd worry he won't make it till Tuesday.

It's unfortunate it's the weekend and I hate to say it but that emergency vet you spoke to is probably his best bet at surviving right now. If he's as near death as he sounds an oxygen chamber could help a lot. X-rays are needed so the vets can work out what the problem is. I've never had blood work done but I'd imagine it'd only be required if the x-rays didn't shed any light.

If the emergency vet can keep him alive long enough to confirm this is pneumonia then surely they can start him back on an appropriate treatment? If they can I'd be taking him there to give him the best chance. If they're not that experienced dealing with rats refer them to the Rat Guide articles and their recommended treatments. 

As for the amoxicillin normally I would never recommend buying antibiotics from fish or pet shops and dosing at home but if this is something you're intent on doing instead of going to the vet you need to start by getting Butters correct weight. You've said .18 grams but that can't be right. To give you an idea of weights my male rats range from around 310 grams (very small male) to 600 grams.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hmmm...the doctor's sheet says 0.18 grams. Do you think they weighed him wrong or wrote it down wrong? I hope that didn't interfere with their dosage of antibiotics for him that they prescribed. :-\ We could guy a scale to see what he weighs and go from there. 

Yeah, he's been pooping each time we syringe feed him now. Sometimes it's solid and sometimes it's very soft. 

Honestly, we think the car trip would just do more harm than good, especially if we have to do it twice. He HATES the car and gets so stressed out. And if they can't even weigh him right, I'm just worried to bring him back there. I've been calling around to to other vets this morning to see if there's somewhere else we can bring him into today or tomorrow.


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Maybe they meant .18KG which would be 180g?


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

That could be. It definitely is written as grams though...on two separate places on the write up sheet. Ugh. Now I'm stressed, even more so. 

I'm getting back on the phone with them.


----------



## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Whats happening with butters? can you please give us an update when you get a chance


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hi!

We had to wait until today to bring him into the vet. Long story short, their website says open till 6:00 - but when we called early Tuesday morning they said they stop accepting appointments at 4:30. Since the two of us were already at work (we were planning on bringing him afterwards at 5:30) we had to make the appointment today. 

So my fiance took the day off and brought him into the vet: they are literally driving home right now. The doc doesn't exactly know what's wrong, but he weighs even less than before and that it could be almost anything: stroke, heart problem, brain problem, etc. He's lost a lot of muscle so they prescribed a steroid antiobiotic: I will have to get home so I can read the bottle and post it. He should be on it for 2 weeks (if he's improving I'll inquire whether he needs to be on it longer) and if he doesn't improve, we might have to put him down.  We will bring him in again in 5 days for a re-weigh to see how his weight is doing. Fingers crossed this works!!!!


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I just checked the bottle: .04ml of dexamethasone twice a day for 14 days. Any thoughts on if this has helped your little ones? No other antibiotics, just that one was prescribed.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

well you have different possible things...

injury to his hind end, if he's older this can lead to HED

stroke as before, getting better, having mini-strokes

PT - progressive, neurological symptoms one of which is inability to grasp with front paws properly.


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

I don't think he has any injuries to his legs - he's putting pressure on it, it's just unsteady.

It could definitely be strokes. I have no idea what brought it on, and don't know symptoms or how to spot it. He's still VERY wobbly, but is at least exploring and running around. 

What does PT stand for? It definitely might be neurological too. But it literally came on overnight. We had him out one evening, like nothing was wrong, and the next he was lethargic and not moving. Then as he recovered, he got really wobbly.

I bumped the other thread, but this is exactly how he looks, except he's over 1 year and not a baby, and it just happened after he got 'sick' -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQXXQoaSzc

One question: he's still not eating on his own, and even though we syringe feed as often as we can (though we work all day) he still looks skinny and looks like he's lost weight. We've been feeding baby food (mac and cheese seems to be the one he actually likes) - oatmeal/fruit, cereal/fruit, apples/blueberries, yogurt, Ensure etc. He does eat some frozen peas and corn on his own, but that's about it. We are thinking of watering down avocados and syringe feeding that (since he won't eat it on his own) - any other suggestions? (He's also a stinker and lets the food drip out of his mouth and lifts his head to avoid eating it - so we've resorted to half feeding/half wiping it on his mouth so he'll clean it off and then eat it).


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It does sound like a stroke. One year old or even younger rats often die of them. Your poor boy. PT is pituitary tumor but its usually a bit slower to show up...

Steroids and antibiotics, syringe feeding Ensure to get fluids and calories into him might help him recover. I am sorry


----------



## alison03 (Feb 27, 2010)

lilspaz68 said:


> It does sound like a stroke. One year old or even younger rats often die of them. Your poor boy. PT is pituitary tumor but its usually a bit slower to show up...
> 
> Steroids and antibiotics, syringe feeding Ensure to get fluids and calories into him might help him recover. I am sorry


 the doctor said he didn't think he was in pain...what do you guys think? Obviously you aren't "in" a rattie's brain either, but if it is a stroke, I don't want him to live out his life suffering. He runs arouns (wobbly and happily) - comes when we call him, climbs up and down the bed/ramps, explores, hides treats, etc. He just doesn't seem to be interested in food.

When yo usay many younger rats die from it, how so? Not necessarily graphic, but is it something I can watch out for and help prevent? Or just he might be gone all of a sudden?


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Usually when a younger rat is just gone when you find them we think of stroke. No prevention even for the most experienced. We cannot see inside their bodies to see what could be physically wrong.

If he seems happy, then just keep trying to get him to eat something/anything and he'll let you know when he's had enough. Sometimes a rat can recover from a stroke on their own, if its mild enough. But sometimes they have more and it does take them from us. Love him every day you have him, and I will keep my fingers crossed for you both.


----------

