# Synulox and acting a bit drunk?



## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

So today we took Winston, my 3 old rat, to the vet, because of a possible UTI. He has been prescribed Synulox (0.25ml twice daily) for the UTI and the respiratory infection that Baytril did nothing for. He's also being treated for worms, and has been prescribed Xeno for that.

He's had his 2 doses of Synulox, and 2 pipettes of Xeno today, as prescribed. Since the first dosage he's been very lethargic, extremely wobbly and unfocused? I was giving him the second dosage and it was almost like he couldn't see the spoon, every time he went to take a lick he would wobble or completely miss where he seemed to be aiming for. I had to scoop the medicine up on my finger and hold it directly under his nose for him to take it.

Is the "drunken" behaviour a side effect of Synulox? Is it a combination of two medications at once? If it persists I'll be calling the vet, right now I just want to know if this is normal or not. He's eating and drinking plenty, but he's really struggling to get where he's going. 

Thanks!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

To help you we need the medicine concentration. How many mg of the medicine in 1 ml?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I would be more concerned about the Xeno treatment...parasite treatments are basically poison that you have to treat carefully. what is the active ingredient with Xeno?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Is this it?

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Dec...lution_for_Topical_Administration/-43611.html

Ivermectin is very easy to overdose...we need to figure this out.

How much does your rat weigh?

How were you told to dose the Xeno? How often and how much? 2 pipettes?


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Oh right, sorry! It says "upon reconstruction with 15ml of water, the product provides 10mg clavulanic acid and 40mg amoxicillin per ml". I have no idea about the Xeno, it doesn't say anything on the box and there's no leaflet.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> I would be more concerned about the Xeno treatment...parasite treatments are basically poison that you have to treat carefully. what is the active ingredient with Xeno?


It is ivermectin. There are different concentration and for small animals like rats it is most likely Xeno-50.Here it is xeno-450 but the adverse reactions would be the same. Like lethargy and nervous system disorder. http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Dec...lution_for_Topical_Administration/-40779.html


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Yes, lilspaz68 that's the one! 

The vet weighed him and she said he weighs somewhere between 400g and 430g. I weighed him earlier and I got 420g. I've been told to apply 2 pipettes to the back of his neck twice today, and then twice again in two weeks time.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

notbritney said:


> Oh right, sorry! It says "upon reconstruction with 15ml of water, the product provides 10mg clavulanic acid and 40mg amoxicillin per ml". I have no idea about the Xeno, it doesn't say anything on the box and there's no leaflet.


I believe it is ivermectin as stated above. But you need also the concentration and if it doesn't say anything about the concentration you should stop using it and confirm with your vet first. What you described are serious adverse reactions to Zeno.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

The vet told me she had never treated a rat for worms before, and she had to check a book before prescribing anything.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

notbritney said:


> The vet told me she had never treated a rat for worms before, and she had to check a book before prescribing anything.


Being very lethargic and wobbly is not a good sign. I would not give him any more Xeno if I were you. Just my opinion. You probably should call your vet and ask for the concentration and tell her how lethargic your rat is. So you already gave him the second dose?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Can you describe the symptoms? What type of worms were you treating for (pinworms are the most common and are usually harmless to a rat).
There are other medications you can use if he is having a serious reaction to the ivermectin. Plus its possible being worms that one treatment is enough to kill them. I will have to ask a UK vet friend regarding this medication, as I know there are several Spot-on treatments that have incorrect dosage information.

Try to get him to eat, and drink as much as possible to flush it out of his system faster.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

He's had the 2 doses of Xeno, as the vet told me. I'm going to call first thing in the morning. Is there anything I can do for him now?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

notbritney said:


> He's had the 2 doses of Xeno, as the vet told me. I'm going to call first thing in the morning. Is there anything I can do for him now?


Eat and drink.

I recently saw an episode of Vet Ranch on youtube and the puppy was blind from ivermectin toxicity.

As soon as I hear from my friend, I will let you know. I am also going to message other rat-medical friends from RRWLK on facebook regarding this.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

ivermectin toxicosis page 3: watch electrolyte balance (especially sodium) and activated charcoal. http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/attachments/Ivermectin Toxicosis.pdf 
I don't know how bad it is and if you are really dealing here with toxicosis. As you describe it, it looks like it. I don't want to scare you but this is potentially a very dangerous situation. When did you give him the last dose and how is he now? If he was already very lethargic after the first dose, this isn't good at all.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

He's being treated for pinworms. He's very wobbly, struggling to walk and it's kind of like his head is floppy? He's sort of tilting, I guess? He just looks very disoriented, like he can't see very well or focus on anything. It's quite hard to describe, I had him on my lap before and he was bruxing and boggling continuously, but he wouldn't let me stroke him and he kept flopping over when he tried to push my finger away. 

Okay, thank you!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

notbritney said:


> Yes, lilspaz68 that's the one!
> 
> The vet weighed him and she said he weighs somewhere between 400g and 430g. I weighed him earlier and I got 420g. I've been told to apply 2 pipettes to the back of his neck twice today, and then twice again in two weeks time.


Can i clarify this statement? Have you given him 2 pipettes or 4 today? (2 pipettes to the back of his neck twice today)


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

It's been a few hours since his last dose, I couldn't tell you exactly how long. Right now he's curled up beside me, not moving a whole lot, though he was grooming himself before. He hasn't been walking or moving around much in a while, which isn't that unusual, but still concerning. 

The fur on his neck is still a bit moist with Xeno, I'm not sure if I should wash it off or if I should leave him be.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

notbritney said:


> It's been a few hours since his last dose, I couldn't tell you exactly how long. Right now he's curled up beside me, not moving a whole lot, though he was grooming himself before. He hasn't been walking or moving around much in a while, which isn't that unusual, but still concerning.
> 
> The fur on his neck is still a bit moist with Xeno, I'm not sure if I should wash it off or if I should leave him be.


Wash it off.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

He's had 2 today, not 4. Sorry, I messed up there.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Definitively wash it off now! The Xeno is poisoning him.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

notbritney said:


> He's had 2 today, not 4. Sorry, I messed up there.


Me and my friend on FB are both heaving a sigh of relief. If he had had 4 then he would need an e-vet right now to try to save him, and he likely wouldn't have made it.

I think you will need to stop this treatment and possibly try one of the other 2

http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/endoparasites.php

Nematodes (pinworms, roundworms)Treat with one of the following drugs; fenbendazole, piperazine, or ivermectin.

What symptoms are you seeing for the pinworms that you are treating? Is he losing weight, bloody stool, etc?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> Me and my friend on FB are both heaving a sigh of relief. If he had had 4 then he would need an e-vet right now to try to save him, and he likely wouldn't have made it.I think you will need to stop this treatment and possibly try one of the other 2http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/endoparasites.phpNematodes (pinworms, roundworms)Treat with one of the following drugs; fenbendazole, piperazine, or ivermectin.What symptoms are you seeing for the pinworms that you are treating? Is he losing weight, bloody stool, etc?


It depends on the concentration of the ivermectin. Since it doesn't say, he might have had the equivalent of 4 doses.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

notbritney said:


> It's been a few hours since his last dose, I couldn't tell you exactly how long. Right now he's curled up beside me, not moving a whole lot, though he was grooming himself before. He hasn't been walking or moving around much in a while, which isn't that unusual, but still concerning. The fur on his neck is still a bit moist with Xeno, I'm not sure if I should wash it off or if I should leave him be.


Just to clarify: those 2 doses you gave him were oral doses, right?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The dosing is correct, the vet I talked to says that the dosing is correct on that NOAH link I put up earlier.I think this old man is just very sensitive to ivermectin.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It's used topically but the rat grooms it off and ingests it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> The dosing is correct, the vet I talked to says that the dosing is correct on that NOAH link I put up earlier.I think this old man is just very sensitive to ivermectin.


She said when I asked about the concentration of the ivermectin :"I have no idea about the Xeno, it doesn't say anything on the box and there's no leaflet." That is why I was concerned." But if it says Xeno-50 that is good.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> It's used topically but the rat grooms it off and ingests it.


She said she gave him the doses orally in her very first post.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

He's been bathed! I've never ran so quickly in my life, honestly. 

He lost a lot of weight without a change in diet. It was dismissed as old age at the vets 3 weeks ago, but he dropped from 520g to 420g in such a short space of time that the vet finally showed concern. Winston also helped when he did a fear poop on the table for the vet to examine.

We also have 2 young rats, they're 9 weeks old, that have never been introduced to Winston. The vet told me to treat them, just in case, but not until they're a bit older. I don't want to needlessly give them medication, especially after tonight.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

The Xeno is topical, and the Synulox is oral.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok I was just making sure sorry.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It says Xeno-50, right? I was scared it said nothing at all when I asked for the concentration.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> It's used topically but the rat grooms it off and ingests it.


I got confused because many people use ivermectin for horses and it is given orally. It is so easy to overdose with ivermectin for horses that it scared me.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Yeah that's the one. Xeno-50 mini. I think Winston is sensitive to ivermectin or something, because what we've just experienced wasn't right at all. It was honestly terrifying. I won't be using Xeno anymore, that's for sure. 

He's definitely perking up now, he's had some food, a lot of water and plenty of pampering. I'm not going to let him out of my sight for the rest of the night, haha. 

Thank you all very much!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sooo glad that he's doing better I looove Revolution and always try to keep it on hand, but in the UK Stronghold is very hard to get, and they have these spot-on treatments of ivermectin which are pretty safe.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Thanks! It's such a relief. There's so many great treatments and medicines that you just can't get in the UK, it's very frustrating. I'm not even sure where to look! There's only one veterinary practice in the area and they're very limited and inexperienced when it comes to rats.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

So happy he is doing better. You can buy revolution on the web without a prescription in case your vet isn't able to prescribed it. Poor baby I hope he will feel his old self soon. Keep us updated


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Actually they can't order meds online in the UK, they truly depend on their vets.I doubt you have to worry about pinworms, weight loss in elderly rats is very common and often due to things like renal failure or an internal mass.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> Actually they can't order meds online in the UK, they truly depend on their vets.I doubt you have to worry about pinworms, weight loss in elderly rats is very common and often due to things like renal failure or an internal mass.


I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

It really sucks, I can get things cheaper than vet price, but I still need a prescription. It's not so much the pinworms that worry me, it's the not being able to get a repeat prescription or a steady supply of medicine. I called the vet asking if it was possible to get some antibiotics without having to drag Winston along with me, but no. So every time the poor dude gets sick (which is always) I have to wait until the next available appointment, and I'm terrified that it's going to end up being too late or something. 

I know I can get emergency appointments, we've resorted to that with the cat, when he came home after being in a fight and he had a massive hole in his head revealing his skull. It still worries me though, I'd much rather have an emergency stash sitting there, y'know?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

notbritney said:


> It really sucks, I can get things cheaper than vet price, but I still need a prescription. It's not so much the pinworms that worry me, it's the not being able to get a repeat prescription or a steady supply of medicine. I called the vet asking if it was possible to get some antibiotics without having to drag Winston along with me, but no. So every time the poor dude gets sick (which is always) I have to wait until the next available appointment, and I'm terrified that it's going to end up being too late or something.
> 
> I know I can get emergency appointments, we've resorted to that with the cat, when he came home after being in a fight and he had a massive hole in his head revealing his skull. It still worries me though, I'd much rather have an emergency stash sitting there, y'know?



Absolutely!!! I have always felt you guys got the short end of the stick, and a LOT of vets won't give anything more than baytril no matter what. I know there's a release form you can fill out to use off-label meds, that takes the vet out of being liable I think? I'd have to check with Adele the vet about that again.

How's your boo bear doing today?


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

Baytril has been the go-to with every vet I've met, I'm surprised we finally got something different this week. Oh! I like the sound of that. 

He's back to his normal self now, thank god. I did the cheerio test and his balance is bang on, he's eating and drinking like he'll never eat or drink again, and he's running around like mad. So yeah, back to normal! 

Thank you so much for your help last night. I'm so unbelievably grateful.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Your very welcome!

it's all a team effort eh Gribouilli?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> Your very welcome!it's all a team effort eh Gribouilli?


True


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How's Winston today?


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

He's doing great! Completely back to normal, if not better. Thanks!


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