# Sugar Bear



## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Alrighty before anyone says anything (including myself) let me say this. . . I did NOT breed this girl. I adopted her from my local petco i never should have gone in but i had a coupon for chew toys and she was NOT one of the store rats to be bought. Someone had surrendered her for reasons unknown to me at the time. Well after having her home for a good two weeks I have noticed her belly swelling at first I dsmissed it for a good healthy diet but I could only think that for so long.  She has begun nesting and is very irratable towards the other girls. Her belly has swollen nicely and i am waiting patiently to see when she will pop. Now I have moved her from the girls cage into a smaller more private cage and also put her in a quiet room in the house. I have given her lots of paper towels and some shredded fleece bits. I put a box in there though who knows if she will use it LoL. Unfortunately I do not have an aquarium to put her in but i do have a very small martins like cage with no shelves (i took them out) so that will have to do for now. I have put her on a high protien diet of Harlnd teklad 2018 nd lots of fruits and veggies as well as whatever i eat for dinner. I have already contacted the vet and he is going to be on call for me. If i have forgotten to do anything for her PLEASE tell me i have never bred before and am a little anxious about this. I am also in constant contact with a local breeder and she has been a HUGE help in all of this. Thanks for understanding that I need input and lots of it LoL

Stephanie

ps sorry no pictures of her belly she is not in the mood to be held these days very anxious whenever she is out and about i figure it is best to let her be.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

All right, I won't demand pics of preggie-tummy.

But the baby-pics, on the other hand... :lol:


Sounds like you're doing fine, but I've never had a litter either!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

I am still trying to get pics of the preggie belly and of course baby pics will be posted as soon a she has them I don't know when it will be and i don't know how many she will have she is a small girl so i am hoping it will be a small litter. She doesn't seem to want the box in her cage so i am debating on taking it out but i will leave it in for now and see how she does with it over night. She has been grooming herself non stop since I moved her into the cage.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

ok so i got some fuzzy pictures they aren't the best but it may give you an idea she was half this size when i got her and remember camera phone LoL


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

You know, our eldest rat filled out like that and she has always built nests and you can see her nipples, but she has never been pregnant. Just a thought, but are you sure she's pregnant?

I wish you lots of luck, if she is!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

well i would say if she filled out like this over time it would be one thing but this has been only in the last week or so and that nest was built only in a matter of hours she is still shredding and working on it maybe she isn't but who knows at this point LoL


[edit] due to my crappy camera phone i decided to look on the web for a picture similar to what she looks like and i came up with this it is a perfect comparison to what she and her nest looks like 
similar to sugar bear


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I just realised, I was so busy looking at her belly before, I didn't notice she has almost the exact same markings as our Ratatouille! Does she have a spot at the base of her tail, too?

Our girl doesn't shred her nest, she just tucks paper towels into a nice cup shape for her to lie in. Sounds like you're in for some little ones :lol:


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

YES she does have a little spot on her butt!! she is such a pretty girl and sooo friendly. When i first looked at her in petco she jumped onto me and started licking me. After watching her most of the night last night it seems that all she does is work on her nest, rest, nest, rest, eat, nest, rest. Her belly seems to be growing by the day and everything in sight is being shredded and put away. I am so glad that we adopted her. I can only imagine what would have happened had she gone to a non rat experienced owner. Luckily I have been doing alot of reading up on breeding as it sparks my interest. Not that I am going to do it for a long long time and when I decide to I will be mentoring with one of the best breeders in my area. She is a vet tech and has a degree in genetics. but enough about that it is still a very Long ways away. 

She also nipped at me last night when I tried to move the box. Apparently she wants it in there LoL she didn't bite hard just a warning to get out of her nest. She has shredded paper towels and shredded paer as well i think there is one of my shirts in there too LoL she is really getting ready and she is swelling nicely. I will keep everyone posted on what goes on and I will be taking pictures of her belly again for comparisson.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Ok so i just took this video of her and as a reminder it is on my camera phone so the quality isn't great. Her nest is getting huge though she keeps rippinng parts out and redoing them. here is the address of the video i did. hope everyone enjoys. oh and i talked to the petco i got her from apparently they got her in one to two days before i got her so she is about 15 - 16 days along. Sugar Bear


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

anybody got any input??


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

She could be further along, who knows how she was kept prior to petco. It does sound like she's getting close to the end of the road.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

well her belly looks lumpy today but it isn't real firm she doesn't want out of the cage at all these days so i guess it is just a waiting game i am not even sure if she is pregnant LoL i will be making an appointment on monday for her to be seen by the vet now that he is back from vacation.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

I am a Experienced Breeder and just to let you know, You do not have to seperate her from the other females. The others will even help out.
You dont even have to seperate her from the males.
(but you said it wasnt you.)

also, from what I see it Should be soon but those werent the best qaulity pics.

Also, if you want I can go outside and find a Preggo female and take a picture for you.
How far along do you wanna see? 
Newly preggo, or about to pop any second?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Matt... Keeping females together is often fine but can sometimes turn out badly, especially with first time moms. And if you don't removed the male, the mother will immediately get pregnant after giving birth, which is obviously NOT what Stephanie has in mind.

And you keep your rats OUTSIDE?


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

well if my calculations are correct she is about 18 days along give or take a day she has never been around any of my males and she was not getting along with the other females which is why i seperated her the other girls were trying to take everything out of the nest she ws building. if you could get a pic of all the stages of pregnancy it would really really hlep that would be sooo awesome thanks Matt


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Forensic said:


> And you keep your rats OUTSIDE?


Yes, in the garage. it is air conditioned for them though. so its the same temp as inside the house.

Also, heres a Few pics, She is going to give birth in the next few hours.
(I am usually good at guessing time of birth.)(i predicted a rat would give birth tonight and she is in the middle of doing it right now.)

Soon to pop momma: (Tan Female)










































Here's a Nursing mom in a different cage:

She's nursing from newborns to pre weened's:









Remember how I said She was giving birth right now? 
Well she Finished and here they are:

(You can tell its fresh by the blood right above them.)




















Heres a Pile of Babies: (not the newborns i just showed you.)











There eyes Are just opening today:










Hope the pics helped!

If you ever need more Just let me know.
That goes for anyone on this board.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

yes that is about what she looks like now give or take a bit is your girls belly firm?? like hard or is it still a little sqwuishy?? sugars is squishy and i think that may be because she is going to have a small litter but i don't know thanks so much for the pics that just about settles any doubt i had that she wasn't preggers.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Stephanie said:


> yes that is about what she looks like now give or take a bit is your girls belly firm?? like hard or is it still a little sqwuishy?? sugars is squishy and i think that may be because she is going to have a small litter but i don't know thanks so much for the pics that just about settles any doubt i had that she wasn't preggers.


She will not let me touch her. (without biting me that is)
I will take pictures for you but i am not going to take a bite for you...lol.
That female will cause nerve damage. (Seriously, she bites HARD!)

Also, first litters are always smaller then 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, etc.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

cool beans LoL and no don't risk nerve damage please!! i am pretty sure she is pregnant and i will be seeing babies soon i just hope she does ok with it all


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

Oh goodness Matt, you sure breed a lot! Why do you breed? For food or pets?


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## Starghoti (Mar 16, 2007)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Matt is only sorta right.
I know from experience that Kitty's first litter was 12. !
She did great, and she stayed a bit squishy right up till birth.
Kitty was/is terribly outgoing and loves climbing on me, but about 6 hrs before she started throwing eepers she wanted Nothing to do with leaving her cage. And the same for a few days after birthing.

Anna


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

KimmiesGuineas said:


> Oh goodness Matt, you sure breed a lot! Why do you breed? For food or pets?


His parents breed for food it seems.


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

Matt, you REALLY need to read about rat breeding ethics. 

Just... wow.

Not to mention how crowded and small those cages are. Oh, those poor rats


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Well as far as I can tell it will only be a few more days. Her belly is firming up nicely and I can even feel some movement in there. Her nest is huge now though her belly is not as fat as i have seen pregnant girls before. I think that she is just going to have small babies or a small ammount though. She was very tiny when we first got her and has nearly tripled in size already. She wants nothing to do with anyone and refuses to come out of the cage at all. She is grooming herself what appears to be every waking moment but only grooming her belly and hind end it seems. I am hoping to get more pictures of her belly but no garuntees.


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

Forensic said:


> KimmiesGuineas said:
> 
> 
> > Oh goodness Matt, you sure breed a lot! Why do you breed? For food or pets?
> ...


That's sad. And also that it appears he has a lot to learn (from what I can make out from what has been said!) 

I can't wait to rescue my rattie-poos and love the poop out of them! I'm definitely going to post pictures, and it seems like some of them are pregnant so there may even be eeper pics!


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

KimmiesGuineas said:


> Forensic said:
> 
> 
> > KimmiesGuineas said:
> ...


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Matt, you really should consider changing your bedding. Pine isn't good for rats. It is often the cause of upper respiratory infections (URIs) and the fenols in the wood aren't good for them. They are toxic. A good breeder should know things like that..


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

Is aspen ok? I think so, I just wanted to make sure.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

KimmiesGuineas said:


> Is aspen ok? I think so, I just wanted to make sure.


Aspen's fine, since it's a hardwood.


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

OK, thanks!


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

The Pine we use is fine and we do know about the phenols and stuff.
We have Special Pine, it doesnt have anything bad for them in it.

I will show you guys a website when i get back home.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't recall them every figuring out how to remove the phenols from pine and cedar, but I'll take a look at the link when you post it. We'll just have to see..


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## Taru (Jun 9, 2007)

I have to say that I believe if you treat the wood in some way you can make pine and cedar not have the phenols in it. But again I could be wrong. I'm going to go hunting for where I found this again. Be back shortly!

Emy


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## Taru (Jun 9, 2007)

Knew I read something somewhere...

"Several people have claimed that their pet rodents have always been kept on pine or cedar with no adverse effects. However, animals with elevated liver enzymes do not show any symptoms, and unless these animals received full autopsies at death with no sign of enlarged livers or liver disfunction, respiratory infection, or altered immune system, how can they claim that the pine or cedar did not affect them?

Some claim that pine shavings which are heat-treated are safe because the heat drives off the toxins. There are currently products being sold, notably All-Pet Pine, Feline Pine, and Pine Fresh, that claim to be free of toxins. However, the studies in references 8 and 9 found that heat treatment did not remove all the toxins from the wood. Heat-treated shavings still caused a rise in liver enzymes in rats and mice. " - From ratfanclub.org, this is an official research paper, with resources that I can list if you would like. 

ETA: "With pine shavings, the problem isn't quite as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds but the risks aren't as clear. Many say that drying the shavings releases most of the volatile compounds, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe. You may still wish to use an alternative bedding or litter completely free of these compounds to be on the safe side." - From about.com in their exotic pets portion of their site.

So as you can see, even if it's listed as ok because of treatment, it's not. Talk to your parents about getting different litter if you can. 

Emy


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

OK I am getting worried i came to check on sugar this morning and her nest is completely destroyed!!!! she looks smaller too but no babies I have had her 21 days now so if there are going to be babies they should be here today or tomorrow. Did my rat have a miscarriage????


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Could you show me pictures of the rat, the nest and where she is being kept?


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Ok so this is her nest her belly and a better picture of her belly I just took them. I don't have any before pics of her nest but it filled the entire right hand side of the cage leaving only about two inches of free room along the left side the cage is approx 28 by 28 by 20


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

sorry about the size i was rushed LoL


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

There's no real way to tell if there are no signs in the bedding (blood spots) or from her (vaginal discharge). 

Does she seem alright? It might be a good idea to take her to the vet and have an x-ray done, just to make sure of what's going on currently. Otherwise, it's just a waiting game to see if she has the babies or if something else happens. :/

P.S. - cute nails!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

There are no signs of anything going on I made a vet appointment but the closest one he has is next saturday. I guess i will just have to wait and see she is doing fine still happy and hyper and everything.

Thanks about the nails the person who did them looked at me funny when i told them I wanted black with blue flames LoL


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

How far along is she? I may have missed that... If she's smaller now then before, it's probably a good possibility that she miscarried. Then again, some females never show their pregnant until a day or two before they give birth. Keep us updated, and hopefully everything turns out alright!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

well I have had her 21 days already the pet store i adopted her from has nop record of her (rolls eyes) but the girl i talked to thinks that she was brought in the day i picked her up. She seems to look smaller but she never looked real big to begin with. The thing that worries me is the nest being destroyed. I dunno I guess I will wait and see she might have them tonight or tomorrow or maybe she just absorbed them either way i will deal with whatever comes LoL


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## Night (Feb 23, 2007)

If she miscarried and then ate the babies, there would *definitely* be signs of that (ie. tons of blood). Honestly, if anything, it sounds like she reabsorbed.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

I was thinking that too but she has started on another nest not nearly as big but more shredding of things and she demands more fleece sooo maybe she just hated her last nest. The igloo has been completely buried now as well as chewed up so who knows I know that I have personally heard of pregnancies lasting as long as 35 days so maybe hers will be long as well. Right now it is just a waiting game I guess I will keep her appointment with the vet on Saturday and if she has babies by them she does if not I will find out what happened. She is still grooming her fur back from her nipples so perhaps that is a sign that there are still babies in there.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

If she reabsorbed she may still 'think' she's pregnant, but I guess we'll wait and find out. :lol:


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

well we are on day 23 and no signs of babies her weight has dropped too so I am guessing there was something wrong and she reabsorbed them. I will keep her seperated from the other girls for another week just to be sure and see how things go. She is in great spirits and is eating and drinking fine so that is a good sign. Thanks to everyone who helped me through this!!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Well today it was made apparent that she has definitely reabsorbed the babies. Her weight has dropped dramatically and her nest has been completely destroyed. she pushed all of the fleece and paper towels out of her cage and everything. So as sad as it is that she did not give birth it is also a VERY good thing for her and me I don't know how well I would have handeled babies in the house.


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## Pomperella (Jun 4, 2007)

what does reabsorbed mean in this context? sorry i have never heard this term before. what an interesting diary of events...she looks like she has a mommy that cares very much


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

It means that the pregnancy was aborted and the babies have been... well... reabsorbed into the mother's body. As opposed to a miscarriage, where the pregnancy is ejected from the body after abortion. But both can happen. I think.


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## Pomperella (Jun 4, 2007)

thank you Forensic, that makes sense...thanks for explaining, i'd never heard of it before


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Pomperella said:


> what an interesting diary of events...she looks like she has a mommy that cares very much


Thanks so much I try my hardest to give my ratties all they need at all times. She is now dealing with ALOT of aggression issues I am assuming fromt he loss of her babies. She doesn't want to do anything any more and she was so lonely I made the mistake of trying to reintroduce her to her friends (all girls) and she tried to kill my other girl meeha. I don't mean they were squeaking i mean there was six bites on meeha's neck and her foot is broken and torn up pretty badly. It all happened so fast I had no clue what was going on. Sugar is now seperated still and Meeha is getting on with a slow recovery oh the joys of rat drama LoL.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

Forensic said:


> It means that the pregnancy was aborted and the babies have been... well... reabsorbed into the mother's body. As opposed to a miscarriage, where the pregnancy is ejected from the body after abortion. But both can happen. I think.


yep, that's what my mother did with my twin. i don't know how far along my twin and i were at the time though. but the story is i was supposed to have a twin but i sucked the nutrients from mom so much i starved it and mom reabsorbed it so i had more room to stretch out. and i was told i made ample use of the space during the nights just to bug her to... *grins* but i was a good baby, and i swear i haven't eaten anyone since! :lol: :wink:


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

twitch said:


> Forensic said:
> 
> 
> > It means that the pregnancy was aborted and the babies have been... well... reabsorbed into the mother's body. As opposed to a miscarriage, where the pregnancy is ejected from the body after abortion. But both can happen. I think.
> ...


Hrm... Well, if YOU'D absorbed your twin you could have had her/his DNA in you as well, that'd be neat. :lol: As it is, your mother might.


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