# Playing or Fighting? PLEASE HELP! *video attached*



## Falcon.Fidget (Sep 15, 2012)

I just adopted two 4 week old Dumbo rats (about 3 days ago). They are sisters and came from http://wntrattery.weebly.com/index.html

They have been 'wrestling' a lot lately and I wasn't worried until I started to hear squeaking. I have read on a few websites that rats typically don't make noise unless they are stressed, or just unhappy in general. Not sure if that is true or not?

Generally this 'fighting' happens when they are inside the hammock I made for them (which they are in a lot). I'm not sure if they are just trying to sort out who 'owns' the hammock or if it's just a coincidence that the fighting happens in there just because they are always in it.

I captured a video of this wrestling and posted it online here (I also describe a little bit more about the situation and who typically starts it) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQPfYI3s3Pw


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

They're fighting.

HOWEVER...

This is not the type of fighting you should be concerned about. They're trying to establish who the Alpha is of the two of them, and it's likely because they were removed from their previous alpha - in all groups there is a dominant rat. If a brother or sister of theirs took the lead, they're now far away from said alpha and need to rework the balance. They seem to be arguing over territory, specifically the hammock because they both see it as the best place in the cage to sleep.

In the video, the grey one was trying to make the darker one submit and she only slightly submitted. This kind of tussling is normal and squeaking is nothing to be worried about. If you hear frantic screaming or someone sounds like they're in pain and the scuffles last for more than a few seconds or become very violent (with biting), then that's cause for concern. This is very normal, however, and you should not worry. 

This kind of fighting will go on until someone wins the race to dominance.


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## Falcon.Fidget (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks. The grey one (Falcon) typically doesn't start the fight, usually she is the one being put on her back and squeaking. Today was the first time I saw her start something. I actually separated them for a few hours yesterday because when my grey rat Falcon was trying to run away (up the side of the cage) from my black rat Fidget, Fidget grabbed her by the tail and pulled her back down onto the ground.

Is there an average time period for this sort of thing to be worked out? It's been almost 4 days.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Your separating them probably did more harm than good - Falcon trying to run away was not submitting as Fidget wanted her to do. Next time they get into an altercation and you can see Falcon or Fidget struggling to get away when pinned, blow on them as hard as you can. It should startle them and the one being pinned will go still. Hopefully by her going still, the other will take it as a sign of submission and things may cool over faster.

If you can't see them coming to a resolution about the territory, especially the hammock, you could try taking the hammock out of the cage for a few days and seeing if that makes it easier for them to sort it out. With that piece of "property" being gone, they may be less likely to fight and therefore could sort it out sooner. At which time, when you notice no more scuffles, you could put the hammock back in and hope that the arguing has ceased.

There's a chance that neither female will want to yield to the other and that they'll be kind of stubborn, which means that no one can really tell you how long it'll take. On the plus side, unless it gets exceptionally violent or high strung they should settle in soon. Keep us posted.


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## DensilAndDoughnutOwner (Sep 14, 2012)

How do you get that bit at the bottom that is always there? And yes, unlikely father was right. Mine did it too for a while, about a week? Then Densil submitted, and everything was fine...


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

It's the forum signature I'm using. You can set your own forum signature under the "settings" link at the top right hand corner of the page. Then there's a link on the left side of the Settings page that says "Edit Signature". You can input whatever you want, there, and it'll be attached to every post you make.  Hope I helped.


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

My rats do this with each other all the time. I ignore it...the rule is NO BLOOD NO FOUL......


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## DensilAndDoughnutOwner (Sep 14, 2012)

Thank you! Accept my friend request? xx


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Just for your information you got babies from a BYB (backyard breeder). We can help you next time you are looking for babies as to a better, more responsible breeder or rescues, since most likely the rats are petstore stock themselves.

HAHAHA babies playing!!!! Happy babies 
There is a game they play, a dominance game, but its not serious in any way, just determining during play who is going to be dominant and who is subordinate...babies playing sounds like someone is dying at times...and it starts very early 

http://lilspazrats.wikispaces.com/Behavior-Are+My+Babies+Fighting+or+Playing?


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## Flora (Aug 30, 2012)

That site is a backyard breeder? He site looks so great and she didnt seem to have that many rats... I have not bought from her and only saw it on this thread. I am just surprised. 


P.S Your little babies are soooooo cute! Even if they are in a tif!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Flora said:


> That site is a backyard breeder? He site looks so great and she didnt seem to have that many rats... I have not bought from her and only saw it on this thread. I am just surprised.
> 
> 
> P.S Your little babies are soooooo cute! Even if they are in a tif!


Totally a BYB, someone who is probably buying pretty rats and breeding, no prefixes, no pedigrees, only been breeding since 2009 (on her say only...no proof). No NARR registrations. Calling them "fancy" rats, when really ALL rats are fancy, its just something petstores call top ear rats for the most part, there's dumbos, fancies and feeders...but they are all the same rat AND could've come from the same litter! Different pricing depending on appearance. NO mention of breeding for health or temperament. No previous litters page, no rainbow bridge page, not much of anything.

I could do up a website like this with my rescue rats and be a "breeder" too LOL


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Definitely a BYB for future reference.

Also, hehe at baby scuffles!


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## Falcon.Fidget (Sep 15, 2012)

As far as a 'backyard breeder' goes... Not too sure about that. I went to her house and all of her animals seemed very happy, healthy, and SUPER excited to see her. My babies are very gentle with me and have yet to bite me and I pick them up multiple times a day so I see ZERO signs of neglect. I also saw the mother and father of my babies and as far as I saw she only had 2 girls she kept as moms and only 1 father. The others on her website she said were rescues that she was attempting to adopt out if I was ever interested. But ****, what do I know, my last set up girls I got from the feeder section at PetCo because I wanted to save them. 6 months later they FINALLY were able to be held without biting me. They ended up being sweethearts but it was a very long process.

ANYWAY, as far as the girls go, I feel that the fighting last night got worse. There was a lot more squeaking and it seems to be going on longer and longer each time. I'm really just afraid that I'll miss a sign that it's turning violent and one of my babies will end up hurt  I will probably end up taking the hammock out a bit (as suggested) and see if that helps. I feel bad for keeping it out though because I feel like I am exposing them. They have another hammock on the bottom level but they never use it and they also have a hide house down there that they don't use except when they are running around playing. They MUCH prefer to be on the top level, but I can't get the hide house up there because I have a Rat Manor from Petco and you have to put anything on the top level threw the small door.


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## Falcon.Fidget (Sep 15, 2012)

Ugh, is there any health issues I should watch out for? Since they are from a BYB?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Falcon.Fidget said:


> Ugh, is there any health issues I should watch out for? Since they are from a BYB?


Not really I just didn't want you to automatically expect good health because they come from a "breeder". Its all a game of russian roulette with petstore rats, some are amazing, healthy and friendly all their lives, others are skittish and/or sickly all their lives and others are just normal rats, get sick once or twice and that's it.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

'Seriously they are playing...no one's dying, there's no injuries, don't remove their hammock. Did you read my link? Those were 5 week old babies, this type of playing can go on for many many months...sometimes up a year  And its loud and obnoxious. Do they sleep together afterwards? I bet they do


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## Falcon.Fidget (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha, yes they sleep together after. They are cuddled up in that hammock most of the time I peek in to check on them.

I did read the link, I'm just nervous because every website says something different. Stupid internet. Haha.


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