# First time breeder



## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Hello, I'm a first time breeder. I'm actually breeding mice, but the concept is the same. I've found as much information as possible and I've been considering it for about a couple of years now. Nonetheless, I am ready.

My question: I bought a male and female mouse from the pet store roughly a week ago. I'm wondering what the odds are of the female actually getting pregnant. Is it almost a positive idea that she'll be pregnant? Mostly I'm just excited and such seeing as it is my first time breeding, and I'm wondering if there's any sure way to tell.

I just switched cages (as the little male could escape) and finding the "plug" was something I found out you could do after the fact. Should I be patient and just wait until I can see the swelling or is there a sure way to tell if your mouse/rat is pregnant? Thanks.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

For Mice, If your Breeding Then Just leave the male in.
Its not like they will eat the babies. My Male Mice actually pick them up and move them to the mom.

The only Thing people should say to this is that they will contiue to try breeding....(the male)


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

That's horrible advice for rats matt. If you leave the male in, the female will just get pregnate again putting strain on her while she feeds the current litter, causeing her to have undue stress and a shorter life span. DO NOT LEAVE THE MALE IN!

But yeah, I really don't think backyard feeder breeders should be giving out any advice on PET breeding when the person strives to do it properly. I know that sounds harsh but really, please don't give out advice on breeding Matt.

That being said, I don't know much about mice at all but I know for rats it's really discourged to breed unknown genetics from petstores as you don't know what you are going to get. Any breeder of any animal strives for health and temprement first, and doing that you want to know what you are breeding. So I don't know if there are dedicated mouse breeders with pedigrees but that might be something you want to look into.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Why are you breeding?


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Forensic said:


> Why are you breeding?


To gain experience and out of love for the animal.

Poppyseed, thank you for the advice. And don't worry, everything I looked up told me not to leave the male in as he will eat/kill the babies or get the female pregnant while she's nursing.

However, my question still remains if there is a way to tell for sure if the mouse is pregnant. 

Oh, and I assure you that the mice are healthy and that the pet store is very reliable, so no need to worry.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

What are you going to do with the baby mice, then? Have you funds if something goes wrong?


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Forensic said:


> What are you going to do with the baby mice, then? Have you funds if something goes wrong?


Keep most, then others given away. I already know people who would want them.

Funds, yes.

However, I'm not asking for people to give me a responsibility lecture.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

We're not trying to lecture. We are just concerned for all animals involved. Using known genetics is the way to go because you don't know what problems you could be introducing into the babies. A good breeder breeds to improve the animal, not just because they like them. 

Why didn't you get a pair from a breeder and apply for someone to be your mentor? It isn't difficult, or costly. And I am sure there are good breeders near enough to you.

Did you look for homes before breeding, or did you rely on knowing people who would take them and not look for other adopters? If so, that's really not the way to do it. Strting a list before you put them together is best.

How old is the female? I don't know a lot about mouse breeding, but my experience with petstores is that they are very young. Young mothers are more apt to develope problems.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

Don't breed petstore mice, it's just as bad a breeding petstore rats.

Unknown genetics, as mentioned by Rodere, can produce unwanted mutations that may cost the babies their life and continuing those genetics will just further the mutations.

It would be best and wisest to have a good breeder as your mentor, and then take a breeding pair from their stock to start your own lines.

Also, while we are not trying to lecture, responsibility is a large part of breeding. That includes lining up possible homes for the future babies BEFORE you breed the parents.


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Good lord in heaven.

I didn't buy from a breeder because the petstore <i>has</i> a breeder who works there. One of the mice is a black self, the other a chocolate self, so they aren't just "Feeder" or "petstore" mice. I did carefully choose them, and I'm not stupid about it or anything.

Not only that, I've been spending most of my time researching breeding mice, taking care of the babies, finding homes, etc. I have everything planned out and taken care of ahead of time. Therefore, this is <b><i>not the advice I am looking for.</b></i>

Ugh, the **** with this topic. Right after this I'm going to get another "Are you physically and emotionally ready? Do you have the funds? Why are you so stupid?"


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

MagicalLobster said:


> Ugh, the **** with this topic. Right after this I'm going to get another "Are you physically and emotionally ready? Do you have the funds? Why are you so stupid?"


Maybe, Maybe not. They say this because they dont want anymore mice or rats to be left homeless or unwanted and mistreated.

I know that I received much of this also because of breeding but I am learning from it.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

MagicalLobster said:


> Good lord in heaven.
> 
> I didn't buy from a breeder because the petstore <i>has</i> a breeder who works there.


Be aware that, not only is this a *rat* forum, but petstore rats/mice/whatever are typically poorly bred animals. Have you talked to the breeder? Are they reputable and do they care about the fate of their animals? Have you been able to check out the breeding area and the conditions of the cages? There are a lot of questions to ask to see if a breeder is a good breeder to get a breeding pair from.



MagicalLobster said:


> Not only that, I've been spending most of my time researching breeding mice, taking care of the babies, finding homes, etc. I have everything planned out and taken care of ahead of time.


All of this is very good. It's not often people will bother with this kind of stuff.



MagicalLobster said:


> Ugh, the **** with this topic. Right after this I'm going to get another "Are you physically and emotionally ready? Do you have the funds? Why are you so stupid?"


Look, we don't go out scouting for places to start trouble, these are just our first reactions to breeding and we want to be reassured you know what you're doing before we help you futher yourself in the breeding process.

Please do not be so quick to temper, that kinda of reaction has started many troublesome threads in this forum and we'd like to keep it to a minimum. 

(Edited for typos)
(Edited again for typos)


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

When you are given great information, run with it, don't take it so personally. Everyone did the same thing to me when I had bred my petstore rats. Guess what? The mom died in labor on the way to the emergancy room! Her babies where deformed and already dead inside her. So I vowed never to breed again.

Now I just take in mom ratties with their babies from other people who are not properly feeding or housing them. I provide proper care. Then I try and find them loving homes.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

MagicalLobster said:


> Ugh, the **** with this topic. Right after this I'm going to get another "Are you physically and emotionally ready? Do you have the funds? Why are you so stupid?"


How old are you? Eight? :roll: 

We're trying to make sure you understand what you're getting into. In case you hadn't noticed, this is the internet. We don't know you or the situation. So we ASK. 

I've heard a lot of stories about first time inexperienced breeders who were so sure they'd have an easy time and plenty of homes and then the money and homes vanish.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Found a good site on mice:
http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/breeding.cfm#beforebreeding


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

I read that article and...well...this one paragraph is bull.



> *Can I keep a male mouse with my female when she has babies?*
> 
> If a male mouse is left in with a female when she has her young a few things might happen. He may kill the babies.............
> 
> ...



A Male will not kill the babies unless there is TOO many mice currently in the cage. (Sadly...From experience...I know...)
The only reason to remove the male is that you dont want them to get pregnant right after she gives birth. Seeing as Females Can get pregnant up to 3-4 hours after giving birth.

Besides not wanting another litter of mice...the male could stay with the female.


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Thank you for the link. Fortunately, that was one of the sites I had read anyway and found to be, well, different than the others.

Sorry I got so short tempered, it's just that I didn't post it to have people asking me all these questions about whether I did this or that. The answer is _yes_, in that I did think everything through at least 10 times and made sure everything is going to work out. 

As for the breeder, I know her fairly well and this pet store is very top of the line. I don't want you to think it's petco or anything (had some mistreatment of animal incidents there multiple times which is why I use petco. Generally it's the franchise petstores that do poor jobs with animals, correct? That's what I've heard anyway). It's actually a personal business run by a rodent breeder, who I know for a fact cares deeply about even the individual mice. She had to kiss them goodbye before she gave them to me.  

Thanks for the advice, but I'm not looking for people to tell me that I shouldn't do this or that providing that the stereotypes for most petstores are that they are bad and mistreat animals. The mice are healthy, they are fancy mice, and I have a good feeling about the babies.

All I want to know is if there's a simple way to tell if the female is pregnant. I'm pretty sure I found what appears to be the plug as it turns out, still intact in the females vagina, so obviously the mating happened recently (or it's just a stubborn plug). Thanks.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Also, you shouldn't leave the male in there if you don't want to risk him killing and eating the babies. The mother is also more likely to eat the babies if she gets pregnant again or has the male harassing her to impregnate her again. Stress can be a factor in them killing their offspring.

A good breeder provides pedigrees with their mice. My local pet store had fancy mice. You know what? It was just a pretty word for feeder bred mice that looked pretty. And their 'ugly' aka PEW and less pretty siblings were labeled snake food. So they were still just feeders genetically. A good breeder also does not sell their animals in a pet store.

The cardinal rule of good reputable breeding is starting from good stock with known lines and with a mentor. Bottom line.

You still never answered why you didn't get any directly from a reputable breeder and possibly a mentor. Every animal in a pet store almost always comes from a breeder. That doesn't make it a good or reputable breeder, even if they are employed at that store.

If you are researching in the right places, it will say more or less the same thing we are.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

MagicalLobster said:


> All I want to know is if there's a simple way to tell if the female is pregnant. I'm pretty sure I found what appears to be the plug as it turns out, still intact in the females vagina, so obviously the mating happened recently (or it's just a stubborn plug). Thanks.


If they're anything like rats the signs will only be weight gain, change in temperament (sometimes), and nesting behavior.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

Ethical breeders WON'T sell to pet stores if they are in it for the right reasons. Selling to a pet store means you CAN'T keep track of the lines, you can't find out if there are health problems, etc. You also don't have any control over where your [rats/mice/whatever] end up. There's no adoption contract and no idea if they end up as feeders.

Most rodent fanciers ARE going to react badly to what you're doing, because any "breeder" selling to a pet store or selling "breeders" to people they have not mentored is NOT in it for the right reasons (improving lines, etc).


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Hm.

So because this breeder puts her mice in a pet store they're bad? Oh yes, I see. The minute they enter the store they're "bad mice" who are "not going to react well to what you're doing!" "There's no contract to say you aren't going to feed them to a snake!" I think I might feed one of the pinkies to my snake just because you said that. Actually, there is a contract with the whole deal on it. So bang goes your little theory. 

Seeing that nobody knows about the petstore, nobody has a right to say any of the **** that they're talking about. The fact is, the mice are normal healthy mice. And you know what? My first two rats lived two years that I bought from that petstore. Meanwhile, I bought one from a breeder that lived about one week, got lice, then died. _Lice_. Disease certificates and feeder mice contracts don't really mean jack in the long run. If someone really wants to feed a mouse to their snake, they'll do it. Who would know? Nobody. Just like none of _you_ know anything about this place. Not all pet stores are evil, folks. 

Why didn't I find a breeder? Hm...lets see. There aren't any, for one. And trust me, I've looked. The one that I did find was horrible _and_ far away. And yet, people are still going to tell me that this idea is going to end in a 9/11 crash just because I bought the two mice from the effing pet store. "But wait! No good breeder would have mice in a pet store!" a random member screams. Hmm. She opened a pet store to generate income doing what she loves most in life. Animals. 

There's a little rant for you.

And you know what? Yes, most pet stores have horrible environments. But just for the love of god in heaven, trust me that this isn't the case. I know about all the horrible things that petstores do and the way they treat the animals is horrible and whatnot, I know. Just trust me on this one. Trust a guy you've never met before in that this petstore is not some evil corporation that mass breeds feeder rats and passes them off as fancy. Thank you.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

> Actually, there is a contract with the whole deal on it. So bang goes your little theory. [...] Seeing that nobody knows about the petstore, nobody has a right to say any of the **** that they're talking about.


So this pet *store* adopts - not sells - out animals. And uses contracts? They screen ALL the "adopters", check references and refuse in some cases? And they keep in contact with each and every person who "adopts" the mice to see what turns up in the lines? They must do this for all the animals they sell.. No, wait... adopt out, then. Wow.

Seriously? Because I'd eat my words if this were true, and I've love to see this pet shop. It's like no other. Especially if they're the only pet store that does just what a breeder would do, AND somehow get an income (as you stated) at the same time. Obviously, that must be from all the products they carry, because ethical breeding doesn't bring in money.

If your rat died from lice, I'd think the breeder wasn't much of one.

- "a random member"


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Kimmiekins said:


> > Actually, there is a contract with the whole deal on it. So bang goes your little theory. [...] Seeing that nobody knows about the petstore, nobody has a right to say any of the **** that they're talking about.
> 
> 
> So this pet *store* adopts - not sells - out animals. And uses contracts? They screen ALL the "adopters", check references and refuse in some cases? And they keep in contact with each and every person who "adopts" the mice to see what turns up in the lines? They must do this for all the animals they sell.. No, wait... adopt out, then. Wow.
> ...


Wow, I wish we had breeders that checked up on our rats. No sarcasm.

Sadly, every breeder within range of me sells to petstores (this I know, as I have looked). Therefore, what's the point? Might as well just find a good store, that in which I have. Seeing as I don't need a background check because I'm not some cruel animal abuser, might as well buy from a store that I trust takes care of the animals.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Where are you located MagicalLobster? I'd be happy to do some looking of my own and inform you of any good breeders. How far away is too far? 4 hours, 6 hours, what? I'm sure I can find at least one.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Rodere said:


> Also, you shouldn't leave the male in there if you don't want to risk him killing and eating the babies. The mother is also more likely to eat the babies if she gets pregnant again or has the male harassing her to impregnate her again. Stress can be a factor in them killing their offspring.


OMG! Does anyone here Saying this own Mice?!?! The Male WILL NOT
Eat the Babies unless the cage is over populated. also, the female will not kill the babies if she gets pregnant again or if the male wants to impreganate her.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Matt said:


> OMG! Does anyone here Saying this own Mice?!?! The Male WILL NOT
> Eat the Babies unless the cage is over populated. also, the female will not kill the babies if she gets pregnant again or if the male wants to impreganate her.


Matt, things like this do happen. Outside your rules.

And if the OP wants to be a reputable breeder they will NOT leave the male in there, as she'll want to devote the mother to the babies, not a new pregnancy.


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Rodere said:


> Where are you located MagicalLobster? I'd be happy to do some looking of my own and inform you of any good breeders. How far away is too far? 4 hours, 6 hours, what? I'm sure I can find at least one.


Really? That'd be fantastic. Too far would be more than two hours as I cannot drive.

I live in Santa Clarita, CA, just outside of LA. Every breeder I've found is no longer breeding, farther away in Cali than I can get to, etc. However, if you can find one it would be greatly appreciated. A breeder for rats would be mostly what I was looking for.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

I'll look, too. But I know that CA is way overrun with homeless rats, so I don't know if it's the same with mice.

Just to get the idea into your head... If you'd like to help rats in CA, there really is a desperate need for rescues and whatnot. There's rescues in CA already, who can always use help. I know you want to breed, but I thought I'd throw that out there.


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## MagicalLobster (Jun 30, 2007)

Kimmiekins said:


> I'll look, too. But I know that CA is way overrun with homeless rats, so I don't know if it's the same with mice.
> 
> Just to get the idea into your head... If you'd like to help rats in CA, there really is a desperate need for rescues and whatnot. There's rescues in CA already, who can always use help. I know you want to breed, but I thought I'd throw that out there.


Thanks. I actually had the idea that there were, but most of the rescues are in northern CALI. 

P.S. Babies expected sometime at the beginning of August/end of July. I'll post pictures when they arrive.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Well, the one thing that most people want to happen is see pedigree mice with known lineage bred. That way they know how the anscestors died and whether to stop a line or not. I suppose you can try to keep track of that right now and keep track of each baby check up on each baby and ask adopters to inform you of anything that might be considered genetic (tumors/ illness/ etc) so if any kid has that you can stop the line then and there and continue from new breeding stock if you so desire.

Does the breeder have pedigrees on any of her rats that you could use for your records? It would be very helpful to you and the health of your offspring to know their lineage. It would also help in knowing and ensureing the babies are indeed comming from good stock. This isn't just a track record of yeah most of the babies are fine, this is solid proof that is needed of each of the babies from this mom and this dad will not carry any illness because their parents didn't and none of their offspring did and their parents parents didn't carry anything and every mouse is indeed heathy and happy and dies at a old age.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm finding quite a few rat breeders.

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Camarillo (57 minutes)
last updated 03/28/07 

Fransen, Chloe
Spooky Garden Rattery
[email protected]
http://www.freewebs.com/crickust/
RATS: Platinum, PEW, lilac, blue, agouti, hairless and dumbo.

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Fresno (2hr and 53 minutes) But they appear to be well worth the extra trip if you could arrange it. 

Anderson, Mayumi
Bii Rattery
[email protected]
http://biirattery.com/
RATS: Black, Chocolate, Siamese, and Blue in the American lines. English lines are Silver Mink, Cinnamon Pearl, Pearl, Cinnamon, Essex, Lilac, Lavender, Chocolate Agoutis, Dalmatian, Variegated and Baldies. The cross breeding has produced various colors.
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Redlands (1hr 36 minutes)

Peltier, Nicole
Black Wolf Rattery
[email protected]
909-528-5867
http://www.blackwolfrattery.com/
RATS: Burmese and dove.
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Here is the site I am getting all of these from. Not all are listed:
http://www.rmca.org/Resources/breeders.htm

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HAPPY GO LUCKY RATTERY (1/08)
Connie & Ken Van Doren
Whittier, CA (1hr 1 minute)
E-MAIL: [email protected]
WEB: mysite.verizon.net/happygoluckyrattery/
RATS: Standard; American â€“ Black, Blue, Burmese, Champagne, Ivory, Russian Blue Burmese, Sable, Silver Black, Wheaten, Marked, Dumbo, Rex, Velveteen
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LILâ€™ MUNCHKINS (2/08)
Ginaâ€™s rats Gina Pomeroy
Escondido, CA (2hrs 23 minutes)
760-519-8287
E-MAIL: [email protected]
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PACKAGE RATZ (11/07)
Rachel Miller
Riverside, CA (1 hr 31 minutes)
E-MAIL: [email protected]
WEB: http://packageratz.rochani.com/

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LotsOSpots (LOS)
Santa Clarita, CA (USA)
Will ship
Contact: Kelli Boka (mailto:[email protected])
No other information found.
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Also check out ratster.com's breeder links for rats and mice.
http://www.ratster.com/breederlinks.html

Part of the reason there are so many homeless rats in California is because of the number of breeders, both good and not so good. Rat rescues are desperately needed. Thousands are euthanized each year...


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## ambernd (Apr 17, 2007)

ok magicalLobster...these people are trying to help you and they can only ask questions to get an answer, so don't get a temper because people are just trying to help... for all we know you could be telling everyone that you know the pet store "family", just so you can get everyone on here off your back. And also I don't know about anyone else but I've never heard of a "pet store" adopting out animals. Thats why its called a "store" not a rescue or a shelter. I'm trying not to loose my temper with you but please just be nice to these people that are just trying to help.


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## chrisstrikeagain (Apr 10, 2007)

With the mice, keep in mind they may be from same gentics, causin problems...

everyone here doesn't like overpopulation and no homed rats given to pet stores and animal shelters. and its understandable.
thats why they aree "lecturing" you


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## deercreekrattery (May 14, 2007)

LotsOSpots breeds mice, not rats. Kelly's mice are really nice. If you are looking for a good mouse forum, I highly recommend the Funmouse Forum. There's alot of great people there.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Sorry, I forgot to label that one. She wanted mice breeders too and that seemed to be the best one I was finding. 

As you can see, they aren't very hard to find.


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