# Mycoplasma, Sulfatrim & a bad vet?



## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi all,
long story but will try to keep it brief!
One of my rats has been making noises whilst breathing for a while (2 months-ish) and recently my other rat has joined in. A little bit sneezy and coughy too, but no other symptoms of being unwell. So I took them to the vet.... The vet was on an emergency visit (getting a horse out of a ditch) and when he came back seemed to be rushing through patients. 
He didn't ask for any history (he has never seen my rats before, or any of my pets), picked them both up to look at them, took a rectal temp of one and said mycoplasma.
He roughly weighed them on a scales designed for dogs and then roughly calculated a dosage for Sulfatrim in his head. He also gave me Bisolvon and told me to sprinkle a pinch in their food every day.
I have since calculated the correct dosage and given them both it (I work in Microbiology so am used to calculating anti-biotic dosages etc). 
I am not convinced that this is the right course of action (neither medication is licensed in rats) and also have no idea how I'm going to give them the Bisolvon.
What do you think?
I have 1 other vet I can take them to, who are not specialists in small pets or rodents either, so don't know how productive a visit to them would be.
Opinions and help greatly appreciated, feeling very rather upset and worried after such a blasé and brief visit...
Xxx


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Sulfatrim works by interfering with the bacteria's synthesis of folic acid. Mycoplasma lack a cell wall and do not synthesize folic acid, which makes it useless.

If there is no improvement after 4-5 days on the Sulfatrim, see if you can get Enrofloxacin or Azithromycin in combination with Doxycycline.

I have no clue about the Bisovolon.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

^^
A rat owner's go-to drug combo. Baytril and Doxy.

Metacam for pain relief.

You're going to find out that you're your own vet. At this point, I just walk in and tell my vet what drugs I need and then walk out.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Ah, true, Mycoplasma do not synthesise folic acid, I wish I'd know this while I was there. It is very tempting to call the other surgery for a second opinion. I genuinely feel like I've been taken for a ride now, and paid for a medication that won't even help my poor rats 
Bisolvon contains bromhexine which thins mucus, so I suppose it could be useful....


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

whether the sulfatrim will help depends on whether his diagnosis is correct. it could be a secondary infection, not just mycoplasma, so the sulfatrim may treat it. my two tend to go on septrin (a different name for sulfatrim) when they get uris, and it successfully gets rid of them, where baytril hasn't helped. so it really depends on what you're dealing with. i'm not sure if there's a way to really tell one from the other, but they are linked.
my only problem with the spetrin is the rats really don't like it. i use strawberry smoothie for their medications, but for septrin i have to add a drop of peanut butter too, or they refuse it.

i don't know anything about bisolvon, but it sounds like it could be useful for congestion.

i'm sorry you had that experience with the vet though, i've had my own unfortunate vet experience lately, and it's really awful to deal with.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> whether the sulfatrim will help depends on whether his diagnosis is correct. it could be a secondary infection, not just mycoplasma, so the sulfatrim may treat it. my two tend to go on septrin (a different name for sulfatrim) when they get uris, and it successfully gets rid of them, where baytril hasn't helped. so it really depends on what you're dealing with. i'm not sure if there's a way to really tell one from the other, but they are linked.
> my only problem with the spetrin is the rats really don't like it. i use strawberry smoothie for their medications, but for septrin i have to add a drop of peanut butter too, or they refuse it.
> 
> i don't know anything about bisolvon, but it sounds like it could be useful for congestion.
> ...


Learn something new every day. Can you mix sulfatrim and doxy/Baytril?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> Learn something new every day. Can you mix sulfatrim and doxy/Baytril?


i'm not sure if you could, the drug itself is a combination antibiotic though, and idk if it's a good idea to mix three antibiotics. i had tried erin on baytril before the vet put him on septrin though, and she advised not to continue with the baytril too, so i'd err on the side of caution with that i'd think.

this is the ratguide page on septrin/sulfatrim (neither of those brand names are actually mentioned there, but it's the same thing): http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/trimethoprim_sulfa.php

**edit** 
just saw this tucked away at the bottom of the ratguide page:

"In treating suspected polymicrobial infections, where a broader coverage may be needed, synergistic or combination drugs may be used. The following drugs may be seen used simultaneously with trimethoprim sulfa: aminoglycosides (e.g., amikacin or gentamicin)."

so not doxy or baytril, but it can be used in combination with some antibiotics.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Great link, thank you! 
The problem I have now, however, is getting them to take it and fair play it tastes RANK! I've tried baby food, sweet oatmeal, toffee apple cordial and syringing it straight into the mouth and with no success really. They squeak and squawk and wriggle like I'm trying to kill them, and won't swallow it  Any tips?
Am about to call our other vet for a second opinion as this just seems like a nightmare for a drug which may not even work!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

CateLW92 said:


> Great link, thank you!
> The problem I have now, however, is getting them to take it and fair play it tastes RANK! I've tried baby food, sweet oatmeal, toffee apple cordial and syringing it straight into the mouth and with no success really. They squeak and squawk and wriggle like I'm trying to kill them, and won't swallow it  Any tips?
> Am about to call our other vet for a second opinion as this just seems like a nightmare for a drug which may not even work!


i feel your pain on that one! rats do seem to detest the stuff. the miracle solution i found for ripley was peanut butter smoothies (soy milk, banana, peanut butter) but what i'm using now for erin is their standard strawberry smoothie i use for medicines now (strawberries, rice milk, banana) with a dab of peanut butter. honestly, a little peanut butter (not straight of course) will get them take anything! he wouldn't take it at all without the peanut butter, and i didn't even use much when i put it in!

also, you need to use more to hide the medicine than you might want. i use what's probably about 2 teaspoons or so of smoothie, with just a teensy bit of peanut butter (so i can up it if they become fussy later). so just mix a dab of peanut butter with about 2 tsp of your base soft food, and then add the medicine and mix well. you can dilute the medicine further than that if need be. i put it in a little dish for the rat needing medicating, and put a dish of just smoothie for the one that doesn't, so there's no jealousy, and it also seems to get them to eat quicker, so after they finish they can eat the rest of the other one's food, or so the other can't steal theirs when they finish.
other than peanut butter, a little chocolate might work, either melted in, or just using a little cocoa powder. i think i've seen people mentioning putting a melted chocolate chip in the medicine food. and another thing is slightly warming it - i think they can prefer slightly warm things, and if they eat it quickly i don't think it should affect the medication.

if you end up having to forcefully medicate them (i did before figuring out the peanut butter thing), hold them calmly with their paws still, and do it a bit at a time, giving them small breaks to calm down, maybe get a little bit of a treat.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

UPDATE:
I took them to see the other vet who gave me a completely different diagnosis and gave them a very thorough check. Because Teddy has had a sniffle for so long and Luna has just got it he thinks it's viral (I've been ill with a virus recently so possibly my fault!). He's given me Baytril to inject for a week in case of a secondary infection, so we'll see how that goes.
On the flip side I haven't noticed any improvement on the Sulfatrim and the 5 day course is almost up (Luna put up such a fight last night, and the noises she made you would have thought she was dying). Fingers crossed and thank you so much for all your replies!


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Woah - I've never seen a vet send anyone home with the actual injection - just an oral syringe. Though I wish I could get the injectable. Make med time so much easier.

But, guess vet tech schooling would be worth it.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Fair play, this vet was very good. Gave them both a very thorough once over and was willing to talk through everything  I use needles every day - in the lab and on myself for type 1 diabetes, so perhaps that was the deal breaker! Fingers crossed this will be easier to administer  
I gather you're well experienced with The Great Rat Medicine Battle! xx


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Another update just for future reference: Luna reacted badly to the subcutaneous injection which resulted in a large scab/swelling on the back of her neck. She's quite alright though and they now have Baytril to put in their water. It tastes foul so I've added toffee apple cordial and a spoonful of sugar, we'll see....


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

CateLW92 said:


> Another update just for future reference: Luna reacted badly to the subcutaneous injection which resulted in a large scab/swelling on the back of her neck. She's quite alright though and they now have Baytril to put in their water. It tastes foul so I've added toffee apple cordial and a spoonful of sugar, we'll see....



oh no, i've heard of baytril burns before, was it undiluted? baytril can be pretty caustic, so needs to be diluted for injections (and 10% concentration should be diluted for any use). glad she's doing alright now though, i've heard they can be nasty.

i don't like putting medicine in water if avoidable. you can't tell how much they're drinking, and it can cause dehydration if they don't like it and stop drinking. i also _think_ it's affected by light, so clear waterbottles can affect potency. not completely sure on that one though. is there any way you could could just give a daily oral dose instead? i've found baytril is massively easier to hide in food than sulfatrim, even though vets tell me that's the one that tastes awful.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

CateLW92 said:


> UPDATE:
> I took them to see the other vet who gave me a completely different diagnosis and gave them a very thorough check. Because Teddy has had a sniffle for so long and Luna has just got it he thinks it's viral (I've been ill with a virus recently so possibly my fault!). He's given me Baytril to inject for a week in case of a secondary infection, so we'll see how that goes.
> On the flip side I haven't noticed any improvement on the Sulfatrim and the 5 day course is almost up (Luna put up such a fight last night, and the noises she made you would have thought she was dying). Fingers crossed and thank you so much for all your replies!


I have read both of your vet experiences and have cringed with both of them 

TMZ (Septra/bactrim) for some reason is one that vets looooove to prescribe first to rats although its not effective on myco which is the usual culprit with respiratory infections. I turn to Septra once the usual combos are not effective, as it does target certain bacteria including a contagious fungal pneumonia called Pneumocystis Cariini. Its great stuff for structural infections but does taste foul.

Bisolvon is just a med that helps with breaking down mucus. I have never used it but others adore it when dealing with sick congested rats.

5 days of any antibiotic is just about useless as a course of treatment. 5 days is when you look for improvements but the infection is very very much active.

Next vet appt.

Rats can catch very very few things from us, ringworm is one, strep pneumonia is another...this is NOT strep throat. You didn't give anything to your rats. When you are talking viruses in rats they are contagious and can be fatal. 
Baytril is often only given as one injection to kickstart the oral doses and injectable baytril is caustic and must be well diluted with saline before being given or you end up with tissue necrosis at the injection site that can end up huge compared to the tiny needle that was used. This is the baytril burn discussed. Back to the course of treatment...

a week is not long enough by far for any active infection to be cured. A very very minimum should be 2 weeks, with 3-4 weeks being better.

I usually give oral baytril and doxy myself to start, if this doesn't cure the resp infection, i will change up the meds after a week or so, baytrl or doxy combined with zithromax is usually my next step. Amoxi and baytril is another I have used.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I have read both of your vet experiences and have cringed with both of them
> 
> TMZ (Septra/bactrim) for some reason is one that vets looooove to prescribe first to rats although its not effective on myco which is the usual culprit with respiratory infections. I turn to Septra once the usual combos are not effective, as it does target certain bacteria including a contagious fungal pneumonia called Pneumocystis Cariini. Its great stuff for structural infections but does taste foul.
> 
> ...


Not a criticism, just curious; are you a vet? Or have you just been doing this forever?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Forever.  I have a really good vet (not perfect) and I have been rescuing since 2006. I adore rats and I have tried to keep learning about them, since theres always more to learn and experience. Been on a ton of forums and researched for other people when they were in the middle of crises themselves. I love helping people who actually want to help or work with their rats . I've seen too much of the other through rescuing. :/


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I have read both of your vet experiences and have cringed with both of them
> 
> TMZ (Septra/bactrim) for some reason is one that vets looooove to prescribe first to rats although its not effective on myco which is the usual culprit with respiratory infections. I turn to Septra once the usual combos are not effective, as it does target certain bacteria including a contagious fungal pneumonia called Pneumocystis Cariini. Its great stuff for structural infections but does taste foul.
> 
> ...


Oh my god. I've just researched Baytril burn, and I'm shocked! I feel like a right idiot, but at the same time I'm genuinely appalled that the vet told me to inject my rats with this for a week!  Luna has a pretty large burn behind her head, poor thing, but neither of them seem to be in pain. Do you know if there's anything I can do/put on it to help?
At this stage I've spent over £70 at the vets and still have no effective treatment... I have only enough Baytril for a 7 day course so I'll just have to see how they are after that  I'm not convinced that it is Myco, but then again I have no idea what it could be otherwise. Apart from being a bit sneezy and (especially Teddy) breathing noisily on a night they are showing no other signs of being unwell. 
Do you know anything about buying antibiotics online? I'm in the UK and can't figure out what I need a prescription for and what I don't!

THANK YOU ever so much for your reply, it really has shed light on the situation!


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> oh no, i've heard of baytril burns before, was it undiluted? baytril can be pretty caustic, so needs to be diluted for injections (and 10% concentration should be diluted for any use). glad she's doing alright now though, i've heard they can be nasty.
> 
> i don't like putting medicine in water if avoidable. you can't tell how much they're drinking, and it can cause dehydration if they don't like it and stop drinking. i also _think_ it's affected by light, so clear waterbottles can affect potency. not completely sure on that one though. is there any way you could could just give a daily oral dose instead? i've found baytril is massively easier to hide in food than sulfatrim, even though vets tell me that's the one that tastes awful.


Yeah, it's quite big, but doesn't seem too sore thankfully - she doesn't mind me touching it. Really disappointed and sad this has happened - I thought I'd found a decent vet!
So far so good, they've been drinking plenty and actually really like the apple juice cordial. Luckily I have a coloured water bottle and have now wrapped the bottle in tin foil just to be safe too. I'm not sure what mg/ml this solution is, it's in a blank bottle not the branded pack, so I'm not sure how to dose :/ in my opinion this one tastes just as foul as the sulfatrim! Why cant they just make them flavoured? ??? what a nightmare!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

CateLW92 said:


> Yeah, it's quite big, but doesn't seem too sore thankfully - she doesn't mind me touching it. Really disappointed and sad this has happened - I thought I'd found a decent vet!
> So far so good, they've been drinking plenty and actually really like the apple juice cordial. Luckily I have a coloured water bottle and have now wrapped the bottle in tin foil just to be safe too. I'm not sure what mg/ml this solution is, it's in a blank bottle not the branded pack, so I'm not sure how to dose :/ in my opinion this one tastes just as foul as the sulfatrim! Why cant they just make them flavoured? ??? what a nightmare!


i'm glad it doesn't seem too bad now, wishing her the best with healing. i'd say to just keep it clean as much as possible. i always try to give my two something rich in beta carotene (vitamin a) when healing/under stress. i heard that it can help, so i use cooked sweet potato for them.

i understand the frustration with vets - recently had a bad experience with one i had trusted quite a lot, but found a great one now. hopefully you manage to find a decent one, or they'll be willing to work with you 

glad they're drinking the baytril okay. the septrin i get is actually flavoured - meant to be banana- but that doesn't seem to affect palatability. i actually think i had to take that antibiotic myself as a kid, and the smell makes me feel ill cause of it. i know there are some flavoured baytril solutions in america, haven't found them in the uk though. luckily baytril appears to be easier to hide in stuff.

one thing that is an option, is that if you want you should be able to ask for a prescription rather than medicine from a vet, and you can fill those online or (as far as i can tell, but i've not tried it) at a human pharmacy. here they cost £8-12, depending on the vet, to write the prescription. i imagine that might offer more flexibility in terms of concentrations, forms, and amounts of the medicine, if what they've given you is all they have on hand, and the medication itself seems to be cheaper that way too. 
i haven't tried getting medicines that way yet, myself, but i'm considering it for the diuretic my two are on long term.
unfortunately, from what i could find out before, in the uk laws are pretty strict on antibiotics and you always need a prescription for them. there's an exception in the us for antibiotics marketed to (i think) fish and birds, but here there isn't. which is probably good for regulation, but not so much for dealing with uris ourselves.


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## CateLW92 (Jan 7, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> i'm glad it doesn't seem too bad now, wishing her the best with healing. i'd say to just keep it clean as much as possible. i always try to give my two something rich in beta carotene (vitamin a) when healing/under stress. i heard that it can help, so i use cooked sweet potato for them.
> 
> i understand the frustration with vets - recently had a bad experience with one i had trusted quite a lot, but found a great one now. hopefully you manage to find a decent one, or they'll be willing to work with you
> 
> ...


The burn itself doesn't seem to be hurting either of them, they're letting me poke at it just fine, but Luna's scab is very black  I suppose this is just tissue necrosis, but it still concerns me. Any advice?
I agree, the baytril tastes just as bad as the sulfatrim and yet they seem much happier to take it somehow! 
I've since spoken to a lady at my yard whose horses need long term medication and she does exactly this! Gets a prescription from the vet and orders it online, she told me a couple of websites to try but I can't remember them now, anyway she said it saves her A LOT of money doing it that way. You were right though, any antibiotics over here must have a prescription (darn it)!


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

CateLW92 said:


> The burn itself doesn't seem to be hurting either of them, they're letting me poke at it just fine, but Luna's scab is very black  I suppose this is just tissue necrosis, but it still concerns me. Any advice?
> I agree, the baytril tastes just as bad as the sulfatrim and yet they seem much happier to take it somehow!
> I've since spoken to a lady at my yard whose horses need long term medication and she does exactly this! Gets a prescription from the vet and orders it online, she told me a couple of websites to try but I can't remember them now, anyway she said it saves her A LOT of money doing it that way. You were right though, any antibiotics over here must have a prescription (darn it)!


yeah, sounds like tissue necrosis to me, and is something that can be caused by baytril burns. i'd probably just make sure to keep it clean, and smell it regularly in case of infection, and look into getting pain meds if they seem like they're in pain at any point. the baytril they're on should deal with any potential infection, but it's a good idea to keep an eye (or nose) on it to be sure no other antibiotics will be needed. if the wounds are at all open, i'd also put them on fleece or paper bedding and change it regularly to keep everything hygenic. rats are amasing at healing though, so it'll probably heal over quicker than you expect. oh, and not sure if you're doing this already, but i try to give probiotics while the rats are on antibiotics, and for a week after. helps balance their gut flora.
yeah, it's an odd one that. maybe there's a particular taste to the sufatrim which rats instinctively think is toxic that isn't in the baytril? idk. i always feel bad having to force the rats to have anything, since i know with their inability to throw up that they're especially cautious about eating stuff they think is toxic.

when looking into getting prescriptions online, i was just searching 'buy (insert medication) vet' on google and it came up with a few. if you don't get much of a hit searching a brand name, you could search the medicine name, or vice versa (like enroflaxacin instead of baytril, for eg.). then check the website on truspilot to be safe. petdrugsonline.co.uk, 365vet.co.uk and viovet.co.uk seem to have good reviews.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

lilspaz68 said:


> Forever.  I have a really good vet (not perfect) and I have been rescuing since 2006. I adore rats and I have tried to keep learning about them, since theres always more to learn and experience. Been on a ton of forums and researched for other people when they were in the middle of crises themselves. I love helping people who actually want to help or work with their rats . I've seen too much of the other through rescuing. :/


You might not be a vet, but if there was anyone I ever had to call for rat help it would be you. ;D


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Jaguar said:


> You might not be a vet, but if there was anyone I ever had to call for rat help it would be you. ;D


I think Lilspaz should have her very own special title in this forum, something like, "The Vet You Wish You Had".

After reading about all the rats she's helped and the vets who made mistakes, I would frankly rather get her help online than go to a vet clinic.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

catty-ratty said:


> I think Lilspaz should have her very own special title in this forum, something like, "The Vet You Wish You Had".
> 
> After reading about all the rats she's helped and the vets who made mistakes, I would frankly rather get her help online than go to a vet clinic.


At one point I actually brought up the idea of a special badge or banner for our valued members, and trust me Shelagh was at the top of the list LOLOL

It didn't happen, but it might one day...


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