# How do I know when an old rats is actually dying?



## TheRatPack8

#1 Monty started doing the weird gasping thing where his sides heave in and out like he can't breath but I rat phone him and nothing
#2 the vet told me it wasn't a respiratory infection. I took him two different places because I wanted a second opinion. Got the same answer. 

#3 he has slowed down SOO MUCH and I worry that the other two boy are being mean to him because he used to be top dog now he isn't.

What do I do? I've never had a rats that just kinda is going slowly. (Mel was old I know but she acted the same all the way up until the last two days) and I either lost the other tragically or to sickness. I just don't know how to handle this. 

Do I separate him? Make him comfy? Feed him different? Am I being selfish for letting I happen? Monty has been such a pleasure to have ever since I got him from another user and he is so sweet when I sit with him. 


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## Finnebon

I'm so sorry, this must be stressing you out beyond belief especially since you went to two vets how didn't help you at all. Was he gasping like this when you took him to both vets? are there any other signs? Maybe try just calling a different vet and see if they can give you a third opinion over the phone if they're willing, be sure to mention the other two vets you saw that couldn't help.

The only other thing I can think of is to try e-mailing or calling Debbie Ducommon. She knows a huge ammount about rats at a personal level. Most vets only know what they learned in classes back in college and don't have any real experiences with rat's behaviors and ailments. She is the founder of the Rat Fan Club and I've emailed her a few times for advice for my Megacolon babies since every single vet I've seen and talked to had never even heard of megacolon in rats or how they get it or how to treat it (I had to tell them specifically what I needed for it) when it's actually very common.

[email protected] You can also find her on facebook but she has only responded to me with email. Just be very clear and try to be as brief as you can, but don't leave out any important information. She may take a day or so to respond, and sometimes she will give short answers, but at least you know you're talking to someone who actually understands and who would really know what to do in this situation.

Do you think he is in pain? as long as the other boys aren't actually picking on him, it might be best for him to stay with them so he doesn't get stressed out. Just make sure everything is clean. Is he eating and drinking?

Poor guy, I'm sorry I can't give anymore advice. I hope he will be ok.


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## TheRatPack8

No he doesn't act like he in pain. He gives me a lot of sass every time I pick him up and poke at him to see if anything is hurt. Same with the rat phoning, he just kinda gives me the ratty stink eye XD. And it's only for a brief period when he does the gasping looking thing. But the minute I get near the cage now he stops. I just don't get it. 


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## Finnebon

Hmm I would defintely say you should email Debbie. She may take a few days possibly to respond so it would be good to email her as soon as possible. Is he stressed out? That can be almost as bad as being in pain. It at least sounds not as bad that he only does it when he thinks you're not looking. Maybe you can try asking your vet for a steroid injection to help ease his breathing for a while? It won't cure anything, but it will make him temporarily more comfortable until you can figure something else out.


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## Minky

TheRatPack8 said:


> Do I separate him? Make him comfy? Feed him different? Am I being selfish for letting I happen? Monty has been such a pleasure to have ever since I got him from another user and he is so sweet when I sit with him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm sorry to hear Monty is slowing down. I don't know if you should separate him, but I know that it adds stress on them to be alone. So it would be best if he can be with at least one ratty friend. I'd let him have all his favorite foods, since these are his last days. 

I have noticed that everyone seems to feel guilty and responsible when they lose a rat. We are responsible for them all their lives and when they die it feels like our failure to care for them properly. Just keep in mind that even when you're going WAY out of your way to make them happy and comfortable, it's still normal to feel somewhat guilty, or to wonder if there's something else you could have done. I don't think you're being selfish. Sometimes the only thing you can do is to just make your pet as comfortable as possible. And just remember that death is a normal process of life, and think of the wonderful life you gave Monty.


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## Isamurat

Flank breathing or side sucking is a sign something is going on, it might not be respiratory but something is up and I'm disappointed in a very who wouldn't look into it bit more. , can you get a video of him, that might help. If he's spent and you can't hear any congestion type noises it is likley to be one of three things. A CK infection which causes abcesses in the lungs so takes up space but the rat doesn't make any nose as it's solid, an early sign on heart failure or some sort of cancer internally which is beginning to cause issues. 

For info on ck have a read of this http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=47 ive had this in a lad before and it's very unlike normal respiratory issues.

In terms of heart issues The best way to diagnose is to treat. Trying an ace inhibitor and diuretic should show an improvement in about 3 days if he has it and treatment can give a good quality of life for some time. Fortekor and frusomide are commonly used and there is more info on the ratguide.

Cancer wise there's not much you can do and is kinder to pts early on, though it's hard to know you have it until you rule the others out. It can be anywhere and often spreads, at first they fail to thrive, loose weight easily then can get straggly and appear tetchy or uncomfortable. Bearing issues occur when lungs are involved and they can end up gaping for air like my lung cancer lad sam did. If this happens I would pts straight away, it's the kindest thing


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## HeatherElle

Oh no! I just logged in specifically to msg you and see how the little guy was doing since it had been a while and this thread was the first thing I saw...how odd. I am so sorry to hear that he is acting sick. I'm inclined to think he's ok if two vets have said no infection but at the same time, I have had a terrible time finding vets in our area who know the first thing about rats so I imagine you've had similar luck. Maybe he is just showing his age though. I personally wouldn't seperate them if no one is drawing blood or having major fights. Thank you again for taking him in and letting your pack give him a chance. I have no doubts he was happier with them than he ever could have been on his own with us.


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## Isamurat

Its a common misconception that old age explains it, really in terms of health theres no such thing as old age. Its merely a collections of illnesses that are often misunderstood and can often be helped or sometimes even cured.

From the sound of it the vets just listened to the lungs before deciding there wasnt anything up, thats potentially missing a lot of things as not all infections mean lung noise. Just like not all infections give you a temperature.


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