# Huge delema



## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Its heartbreaking to say this... But I must part with my babies tonight until december... My school will only allow Chase in my apartment because "ESU policy only allows A (singular) emotional Support animal." meaning even if I got a trio certified, they would only accept one and cage mates would have to stay home. I can only bring that one.... So the babies will live with Zach. They will be reintroduced when the babies are 3months old and have grown to a bigger size. 

Then once that happens, I assume Chase will say with the babies after that and I'll have to kiss kiss my beloved 9month old rat good bye for 3 months with his babies once school starts up... Unless I can talk to my University's president and see about this policy. Please note that I have a note from my psychologist for all 3.... Chase was starting to show signs of depression which is why I acted and was trying to get these 2 babies approved... But since that didnt happen the babies must go until I can get them from Zach over winter break.... What do you think I can/ should do.

Does a university have the right to do that even with the letters stating that they are ESA?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Can you also get proof that rats need social friends? Maybe then they'll listen. How heart breaking.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Can you also get proof that rats need social friends? Maybe then they'll listen. How heart breaking.


When I called counsling services one of the secretaries said "from my personal experiences, and I have owned rats, if you give them enough attention they should me fine" I said "I have had Chase for 6months, he is not fine. I know the signs of depression. He lays around, barely eats, and just over all does not seems well." her reply "Well ok... but I'm just saying usually they are fine" My reply: "Yeah in some causes, but clearly he is not. I should know"


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Have your psychiatrist call the school and speak to the dean. Just bypass all those idiots and go straight to the top. They need to know that he needs his cagemates or it will negatively affect his health and well being, and if he's sick then he can't help you and that in turn will affect your health.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

I called both HUD and the president of the university. I will get my babies back.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Have you talked to the disability coordinator? In my case, they were the only one that could make the final decision about whether or not I could keep more than one rat.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

I left a message for her yesterday asking her to call me today... She was in at 9am. I called at 9 they told me she wasn't in. I called at ~10:30 they said she still wasn't in. I canned at 11 something they said she wasn't here BUT was told yesterday that she was, further inspection they said she is but "with someone" they said she'd call me. I called at 1:30 they said again she wasn't in... they check and she was busy. had to go to class for 2-3:50, they close at 4:30... I called at 3:55, no one answered. I called at 4 someone picked up and said she wasn't here. This isn't the first time they have don't this to me... They did this for a month straight when I called trying to get Chase in to school. Needless to say. I called the President of the university to complain and to ask to see this "policy" in writing since I cant find it anywhere. I ALSO called HUD to see what they say about 3 documented ESAs being denied accommodations.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Yeah I don't see how they could deny you the right to keep three rats. When I had to fill out the paper work to keep my rats, one of the conditions was that I had to be able to meet the emotional needs of my animal(s). We all know that rats need ratty companions in order for their emotional needs to be successfully fulfilled. I would try to get a note from a veterinarian as well, stating that having more than one rat is necessary to the well being of the animal.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Well not according to what one of the receptionist.... I can't stop crying....


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

UPDATE: I spoke to the head counseling services she is a small animal (Guinea Pig) owner of YEARS. She directed me to a very good vet in the area and says that I should first get him check out to make sure there is no underlying issue.. (But i got him checked by a licensed vet tech, she found nothing.) But thats ok, nothing will show. So she said she will be working on talking to their legal team and higher ups for next semester.... So sadly I will not have my babies till december... 

She said she will do all she can. She would like to have any contact information for any schools who have dealt with similar instances so PLEASE inbox me (All rat ESA owners PLEASE!) So she can present a decent case to the legal team! She understands the needs of these social animals and claims she is going to do all she can.


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

While I understand your sadness I can understand it from their perspective too. People are not rational. So if they say it's OK to have 3 rats then someone will complain that they want 3 dogs. They are not the same thing, but as I said people are not rational so they'll argue "why does the rat lady get 3 but I only get 1”. Blanketly limiting it to 1 animal is the safest way for them to avoid that situation.

I'm curious what sort of checks they actuallly have on this? I mean if your roomate is cool, or you have a single, will they ever even know if you sneak in the other two? I never went to college so I'm not sure how exactly that all works.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

My school policy is stresses that even though I am in the apartment. They CAN NOT leave my room unless in a carrier. Not apartment, but room. Unless I bring them to campus where they are pets (and no one knows i live in the ridge.. nor to they care)


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

But are they going to do surprise inspections? Just wondering what the likelihood of getting caught with more then one rat is?


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

High since I know my RA thinks that rats are dirty and disgusting... So he said he would be doing more inspections then that non esa tenates to make sure hes not "violating health codes" and now an interesting development. Counsling center who is in charge of Chase's stay said I cant take him out of the apartment. Luke (my building's RA) said I cant take him out of my small 10ft X 15ft room.... Even if he was on my shoulder. -.-'


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't get the bias toward rats. Do they think they're going to escape into the walls and give everyone the plague?


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I don't get the bias toward rats. Do they think they're going to escape into the walls and give everyone the plague?


It's probably more bias against ESA in general. Unfortunately a lot of people have had pets certified as ESA when they have no real need just to get pets into pet-free housing and such. That has made it harder on those with legitimate need for an ESA. So you get landlords and such that legally comply with the law, but try to do so as minimally as they can while causing the most burden on the ESA pet owner.


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## deedeeiam (Apr 8, 2014)

ClassicFAIL said:


> Luke (my building's RA) said I cant take him out of my small 10ft X 15ft room.... Even if he was on my shoulder. -.-'



This I would question. Is this a dorm? You keep calling it an apartment, but it sounds like there would have to be some centralized living/eating/bathroom area. The ADA has published opinions on both Service Animals and Support Animals....that essentially, "The ability to move between rooms in order to socialize, to study, and to use all public use and common use areas is an essential."


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

I live in the university "off campus apartments"... Its policy at my school that ESA's don't live my room and cant enter school buildings. But head of counseling department said apartment and RA say my room inside my apartment. -.-' I kinda just give up... I want to ask my mother if I can live off campus like in town where it would honestly be cheaper then living here. I'm so tired of the people and I want to move in with people I know and get along with -.-

Edit: He has to be in a carrier if he leaves the apartment. I cant even take him outside in the grass or sit outside my apartment building with him. Once I get on to campus I can have him out but 10ft away from any door/building entrance....


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I've been thinking about this a lot today because I study law. It's hard to say for sure because I don't know what state you're in, and all states are a little different, but you can claim that they are discriminating against your disability by refusing to accommodate it. You need to argue that the accommodation is reasonable, and that by them refusing to accommodate, you are being discriminated against. I would also argue using the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), which states that a disability is something physical or mental that limits a normal daily activity. You would be amazed at what counts as a normal daily activity (they list answering the phone). If you are covered under the ADA, which you likely are, then your accommodation is as well, especially if prescribed by your doctor. Basically, you're in a position to sue the school, and it is far easier for them to accommodate than to pay a lawyer. 

Quick advice, never outright say you are going to sue. It puts people on edge. You just need to subtly say all the things that they are doing illegally and let them draw the conclusion that they can be sued. This would be a conversation that I would have with a dean, basically someone who wouldn't want to be sued and would rather accept the accommodations.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Aeyna said:


> I've been thinking about this a lot today because I study law. It's hard to say for sure because I don't know what state you're in, and all states are a little different, but you can claim that they are discriminating against your disability by refusing to accommodate it. You need to argue that the accommodation is reasonable, and that by them refusing to accommodate, you are being discriminated against. I would also argue using the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), which states that a disability is something physical or mental that limits a normal daily activity. You would be amazed at what counts as a normal daily activity (they list answering the phone). If you are covered under the ADA, which you likely are, then your accommodation is as well, especially if prescribed by your doctor. Basically, you're in a position to sue the school, and it is far easier for them to accommodate than to pay a lawyer.
> 
> Quick advice, never outright say you are going to sue. It puts people on edge. You just need to subtly say all the things that they are doing illegally and let them draw the conclusion that they can be sued. This would be a conversation that I would have with a dean, basically someone who wouldn't want to be sued and would rather accept the accommodations.


The problem is that they are accommodating me (and my disability) by having Chase... the head of counseling said that you have an ESA, you don't need 3, unless we can get a vet notice AND it is heavily discussed with the legal team and her boss-- whom i can probably tell you it is not likely they will accept. But she said she will try..(what ever that means).. I literally broke down and cried. I've never cried this much.... This entire situation sucks.


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I was mostly referring to him not being allowed out of your room. That's limiting your accommodation and technically limiting your prescription to have Chase with you. 

But I have my fingers crossed that something will work. Maybe it could be that they let you out of your lease without penalty so that you can live off campus (not a dorm thingy) with all three. I know from personal experience that it's much cheaper and far less stressful than dorm living.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

And now were are back to the who thing of.. "my-parents-are-major-jerkfaces-and-wont-let-me-move-out-until-after-I-graduate-otherwise-i-have to-pay-them-31000$-in-student-loands-and-then-finish-paying-for-school-and-buy-a-new-car" 

Haha Yeah, sadly that is not an option.... I wish it was... but its not.


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## sarah424 (Sep 11, 2014)

So sorry things are not working out for you  I hope the head counselor can help change the school's mind, or at least work something out that everyone can be happy with.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Is chase going to be alone most the time then? I think you said he is getting depressed. it sounds like he won't have as muh contact with you while you are at school because of their rules.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Chase is out for 3-4hours a day with me or running around my room..mm but its just not enough... it kills me but I think next semester ill have to leave him behind....


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Update:
12/4/14

 I can only have one rat. I had to have a developed a "nexus" or historical proof that this animal helps me. They consider Chase a "special needs animal" because he is deaf and there for unable to provide support. I am to separate my 2 boys and bring one of THEM up with me to school, and give up Chase. 
Because that 'nexus' doesn't exist with the babies, they are declined to live with me because there is no existing historical alleviation of my symptoms. Either way I will be dealing with a lone rat...

Also as it stands, he can NOT leave my small 10ft X 12ft bedroom in my apartment. Even if I needed to give him a bath because it is a "health hazard"


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## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties. I do think it's important to prioritize the best interests of the rats with whatever decision you choose if at all possible.


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## ponderosa (Oct 13, 2014)

I wonder if there is any recourse to combat the ignorance that you are facing by getting backup statements from a veterinarian that rats need cagemates for the sake of their mental health, and I wonder if you can find research studies that state the same?


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

If you want an animal welfare researcher to send a letter saying rats need to be socially housed I will do it. If they go to their own animal facilities on campus who are probably AALAC accredited they will find social housing of rats is required unless the experiment specifically requires isolation to be valid. IMHO it would be hard to say an ESA that provides social buffering and support has less conspecific social needs than the biomedical lab rat. I would argue that for social animals "one" refers to a functional social group, absolute minimum a pair. 

I know not everyone agrees and I respect that, but that is my opinion based on the social demand data I collected on lab rats. I am getting onto a plane to NZ in the next few days but if you let me know I can send something within a week or so.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

EmilyGPK said:


> If you want an animal welfare researcher to send a letter saying rats need to be socially housed I will do it. If they go to their own animal facilities on campus who are probably AALAC accredited they will find social housing of rats is required unless the experiment specifically requires isolation to be valid. IMHO it would be hard to say an ESA that provides social buffering and support has less conspecific social needs than the biomedical lab rat. I would argue that for social animals "one" refers to a functional social group, absolute minimum a pair.
> 
> I know not everyone agrees and I respect that, but that is my opinion based on the social demand data I collected on lab rats. I am getting onto a plane to NZ in the next few days but if you let me know I can send something within a week or so.


The person who is handling the case says that she has talked to a psycologist that handles the lab rats here and campus and that there is "no such thing as a bonded pair" and that a solitary rat should be fine. WELL lab rats are specially bred from a line of domestic and WILD rat. Wild rats can be solitary to some degree.

Seriously guys I'm at a loss. I have to accept it. I lost my oldest boy just because he is deaf and they are blaming that as the cause of his 'advance social need' and there for discredits him.... and i'm devastated. That is the boy I had the strongest bond to. My first rat. But they dont care, they want to "uphold policy".


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

ponderosa said:


> I wonder if there is any recourse to combat the ignorance that you are facing by getting backup statements from a veterinarian that rats need cagemates for the sake of their mental health, and I wonder if you can find research studies that state the same?


He has been seen by a vet and has a letter stating... they still wont budge.


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## ponderosa (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm so sorry.


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

In general you need to try and cooperate with bureaucracies as much as you can. It increases your chances of winning the fights you needs to.


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

Unless that person has specifically research rats demand for social contact, I can trump that if they take science at all seriously. Handling lab rats does not make one an expert on their social needs. Some persons spoken opinion is not peer-reviewed research and recognized husbandry regulations that university is already signed onto (I bet anything they are AALAC accredited and that person is basically saying AALAC is wrong).


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

Here is a start:

Individual housed rats animal are widely considered to experience a syndrome called ‘isolation stress’.http://www.ratforum.com/#_edn1_[SUP],[ii][/SUP] This syndrome includes hyper-reactivity to stimuli,[iii] deficits in learning performance,[iv] and altered reactivity to pharmaceuticals.[v]

When compared to other rodent species, rats are particularly susceptible to isolation stress, especially as juveniles (up to 50 days of age).[vi][SUP],[vii] [/SUP]While housing in larger groups is often desirable, pair housing is sufficient to abolish the worst effects of isolation stress. Use of social contact substitutes such ashuman contact or mirrors has not been successful.[SUP]1[/SUP]

Social housing permits the display of highly-motivated social behaviors and helps moderate the effect of experimental or incidental stressors and these would include improved performance as an emotional support animal as a distressed animal would be less effective or ineffective as a source of social support to a human. When confronted with a novel or aversive event, paired animals experience significantly less distress as indicated by measures such as open field activity, [SUP]1[/SUP] ethanol intake[viii] and adrenal gland size.[SUP]4[/SUP]

It is for this reason that all researchers at AALAC-accredited research facilities are required to socially house all social species including rats unless they request and receive an exception from the IACUC for scientific reasons. As such isolation housing of rats is normatively unacceptable in relation to animal used in the laboratory, and not extending this same consideration to service and assistance animals would seem to require explicit ethical justification.

Social housing should be considered compulsory for all rats unless there is a specific pressing reason for denying this basic need. Social housing is preferred as producing rats that display less severe physical and behavioral abnormalities[ix] and are less susceptible to stressors, they function better in their roles and are protected from an almost certain compromise to their welfare.

While the Fair Housing Amendment Act refers to emotional support animals in the singular, for social animals the unit that may be humanely kept and is likely to be effective in relation to the physician's goals will be two or three animals depending on age, temperament and housing system. 

[HR][/HR]http://www.ratforum.com/#_ednref1 Wiberg, G. S., and H. C. Grice. "Long term isolation stress in rats." Science (New York, NY) 142 (1963): 507.

[ii] Baer, Hf. "Long-term isolation stress and its effects on drug response in rodents." Laboratory animal science 21.3 (1971): 341.

[iii] Lapiz, M. D. S., et al. "Influence of postweaning social isolation in the rat on brain development, conditioned behavior, and neurotransmission." Neuroscience and behavioral physiology 33.1 (2003): 13-29.

[iv] Reed, Phil, et al. "Effects of isolation rearing and mirror exposure on social and asocial discrimination performance." Learning and Motivation 27.2 (1996): 113-129.

[v] Jones, G. H., et al. "Dopaminergic and serotonergic function following isolation rearing in rats: study of behavioural responses and postmortem and in vivo neurochemistry." Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior 43.1 (1992): 17-35.

[vi] Einon, Dorothy F., et al. "Isolation has permanent effects upon the behavior of the rat, but not the mouse, gerbil, or guinea pig." Developmental psychobiology 14.4 (1981): 343-355.

[vii] Lukkes, Jodi L., et al. "Adult rats exposed to early-life social isolation exhibit increased anxiety and conditioned fear behavior, and altered hormonal stress responses." Hormones and behavior 55.1 (2009): 248-256.

[viii] Parker, Lorne F., and Barbara L. Radow. "Isolation stress and volitional ethanol consumption in the rat." Physiology & behavior 12.1 (1974): 1-3.

[ix] Muchimapura, S., et al. "Isolation rearing in the rat disrupts the hippocampal response to stress." Neuroscience 112.3 (2002): 697-705._


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

EmilyGPK said:


> Here is a start:
> 
> Individual housed rats animal are widely considered to experience a syndrome called ‘isolation stress’.http://www.ratforum.com/#_edn1_[SUP],[ii][/SUP] This syndrome includes hyper-reactivity to stimuli,[iii] deficits in learning performance,[iv] and altered reactivity to pharmaceuticals.[v]
> 
> ...


_

Thank you so much for this I will be sending this to her ASAP.

The man is a psychologist who APPARENTLY studies behaviors and who is the lab rat handler here for the university...._


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## justboringSarah (Feb 6, 2013)

**Tone is almost impossible to convey on the internet.Please know I am saying this in the nicest possible way**
FHA requires most landlords to accomodate persons with disabilities,within reason. So e could argue that asking for 3 ESAs for one person isn't reasonable,regardless of the species and their needs. Also remember that FHA is for the benefit of a disabled person and not the animal.
As much as it sucks for Chase,it seems that your university has done nothing wrong. 
Could he live full time with the 2 other rats and you have a different animal as an ESA?


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

justboringSarah said:


> **Tone is almost impossible to convey on the internet.Please know I am saying this in the nicest possible way**
> FHA requires most landlords to accomodate persons with disabilities,within reason. So e could argue that asking for 3 ESAs for one person isn't reasonable,regardless of the species and their needs. Also remember that FHA is for the benefit of a disabled person and not the animal.
> As much as it sucks for Chase,it seems that your university has done nothing wrong.
> Could he live full time with the 2 other rats and you have a different animal as an ESA?


No. My parents will not allow another animal into their house. I wanted to get a service dog, for my anxiety but my parents laughed in my face.


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## justboringSarah (Feb 6, 2013)

Im sorry. I have a SD,for PTSD and he has changed my life


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

justboringSarah said:


> Im sorry. I have a SD,for PTSD and he has changed my life


Chase is the closest thing I have... and that sounds so pathetic.... But with no friends up here at college and 85miles from home, hes really all i have keeping me going.... and i'm losing him.
My parents are exactly happy i have the rat anyway but all the mental health professionals that she had talked to about this said it was a fantastic step forward and that i may benefit from a SD... but she will not budge either... so I lose.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

Why not get a job and live off campus, then keep as many rats as you want? Living on campus has big draw backs and while doing so, you have to play by "their rules" just like in any landlord / tennant agreement. If you can swing it, move off campus then this won't be an issue (provided that you find an animal - friendly apartment). Otherwise, just live on campus with your one pet rat and give him lots of attention. Is it idea? No, but it is not a horrible situation. Were you aware of the rule that only allowed 1 ESA when you got your rat chase? If so, you knew that you were going against policy when adopting the others and knew that this might be a possibility. The rules may stink in this case, but are there to protect other students, people with disabilities, and the college from people abusing the privilege of having a service animal. If they did not set limits, there would be no stopping people from saying that they needed large number of animals, etc. 

I am sorry you are in this situation, but it appears that your options are to follow the rules or to move off campus. Neither option may be ideal, but at least you can still keep your rat in either case.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

artgecko said:


> Why not get a job and live off campus, then keep as many rats as you want? Living on campus has big draw backs and while doing so, you have to play by "their rules" just like in any landlord / tennant agreement. If you can swing it, move off campus then this won't be an issue (provided that you find an animal - friendly apartment). Otherwise, just live on campus with your one pet rat and give him lots of attention. Is it idea? No, but it is not a horrible situation. Were you aware of the rule that only allowed 1 ESA when you got your rat chase? If so, you knew that you were going against policy when adopting the others and knew that this might be a possibility. The rules may stink in this case, but are there to protect other students, people with disabilities, and the college from people abusing the privilege of having a service animal. If they did not set limits, there would be no stopping people from saying that they needed large number of animals, etc.
> 
> I am sorry you are in this situation, but it appears that your options are to follow the rules or to move off campus. Neither option may be ideal, but at least you can still keep your rat in either case.


I cant live off campus unless I want to owe amy parents 31,000$ in my student loans. I can not "move out" or off campus as long as she says so until graduation. I have been able to say that come next fall semester I want my apartment IF i can find people who I trust to room with...

I was not aware of any policy as it was not on the school or Counseling websites. Also, I got chase as a lone rat and was a not able to adopt the boys untill december, but that was pushed up earlier after pleading with my mother.... (more info can be found in previous threads here on RF)


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I know this isn't a funny matter, but I still find it a little funny that an emotional support animal needs it's own emotional support animals. Haha. Poor chase though. I don't know how chase(or any rat) will help you if it has to stay in your room and can't come out. I don't have an ESA, but don't they work because they go with you and help with your daily emotional needs? Maybe you can rotate the rats so that way they aren't always completely alone?


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

gotchea said:


> I know this isn't a funny matter, but I still find it a little funny that an emotional support animal needs it's own emotional support animals. Haha. Poor chase though. I don't know how chase(or any rat) will help you if it has to stay in your room and can't come out. I don't have an ESA, but don't they work because they go with you and help with your daily emotional needs? Maybe you can rotate the rats so that way they aren't always completely alone?


ESAs are not granted public access... but still, I pay for the apartment... -.-''

But anyway, that is what i was thinking, but I worry if they are apart for a month or 2, will be need to be reintroduced? My fiancé and I both dont have the time to reintro while i rotate....


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## Maddie (Jan 13, 2014)

Instead of calling I would suggest going on and making an appointment to speak with those you need to speak with. I doubt it's always a case of "ignoring". I'm not a Uni professor or a dean, just a regular school teacher. You would be surprised the number of calls and visits I get a day. Sadly I just don't always have time! The people that show up though an take that extra step get my attention flirts.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

Maddie said:


> Instead of calling I would suggest going on and making an appointment to speak with those you need to speak with. I doubt it's always a case of "ignoring". I'm not a Uni professor or a dean, just a regular school teacher. You would be surprised the number of calls and visits I get a day. Sadly I just don't always have time! The people that show up though an take that extra step get my attention flirts.


I have gone in multipule times and above was the final decision. I can only have one rat, and i must "cycle through" them...


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