# Help with sick rat and bad vet



## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I took my rats to a vet and the vet didn't know what they were doing for even the slightest bit so I need some advise. In fact, at the end of the exam they said they weren't specialized in rats, which really got on my nerves, especially when I specifically asked them about that before I made the appointment. Anyway, at first the vet didn't want to prescribe me antibiotics because they felt that they were sneezing because I recently got them. However, I heard them sneezing, chirping, and clicking, making it pretty obvious that it was URI. After convincing to him that they're sick, he prescribed me antibotics which was Orbax oral suspension, 0.1 ml by mouth every 24 hours for one week. However I've been told that I have enough for 3 months just in case.

My rats are only around a few months old. I heard this medicine isn't good for young rats. But anyway, they've been taking it for 4 days, they're still sneezing, clicking, and chirping. One rat's whole body twitches every second occasionally, as if it's a heart beat. This sneezing, clicking, and chirping usually occurs right after they wake up, and then it goes away slowly as they're awake. They have been a bit more active unlike before when they weren't on the medicine. They're also eating and drinking perfectly fine. So I could use some help...

Is this drug ok? Am I giving them the right dosage? Does it take awhile for the sickness to go away?


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Sorry I was wrong, they don't quit sneezing, chirping, or clicking at all. They also sleep an awful lot, but I'm assuming rats always do that.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/orbifloxacin.php

Doesn't seem it's really any good in helping with URI's... You need to go back and get some Amoxicilin, probably something brand named "Synulox" or some Doxycycline. These will help with the URI's. As for the "whole body twitching every second occasionally" when waking up, that's actually pretty normal. Hiccups are normal for rats, especially when they've woken up. However, try to go back and get some different antibiotics. The dosage will vary depending upon the weight of the rat. If I were you, I'd find a new vet...


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks for your information, I'll be sure to call my vet and try and get my money back. I'm pretty appalled right about now. Now sure how it's legal to screw around with pets like that. I spent over $54 all this crap medication that isn't working. In addition they gave me BENE-BAC Plus FOS & Probiotics for one of my rat's diarrhea, another $18. However, that at least seems like it did work. Yet who knows...


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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

If the vet won't give you doxy or amoxi, at least try for enrofloxacin (known mainly as baytril) which can also help and is often the first antibiotic given to rats with an infection, although if your rats are younger than 3 months it'd definitely be better to get doxy (some studies have shown that baytril can affect the growth of very young rats by bone fusion.)


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

If my vet wont give my money back I'm possibly going to get a lawyer and sue them for malpractice. So is everyone sure that Orbax isn't used for URI?


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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

From what I briefly read about Orbax, it seems like it's used for infections of the skin and wounds (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so I'm really not it's the best thing for shifting a respiritory infection; baytril, doxy and amoxi are very commonly given to rats for RIs, yours is the first mention I've heard of prescribing what you were given. I'm of the opinion stick with what's been tried and tested and works.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

To sue them, you will still need to get an alternate veterinary opinion.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

PurpleGirl said:


> From what I briefly read about Orbax, it seems like it's used for infections of the skin and wounds (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so I'm really not it's the best thing for shifting a respiritory infection; baytril, doxy and amoxi are very commonly given to rats for RIs, yours is the first mention I've heard of prescribing what you were given. I'm of the opinion stick with what's been tried and tested and works.


The article later on says, "

Orbifloxacin can be used simultaneously with doxycycline in the treatment of Mycoplasma.Also, in treating suspected polymicrobial infections, where a broader coverage may be needed, synergistic or combination drugs may be used. The following drugs may be seen used simultaneously with orbifloxacin: aminoglycosides (e.g., amikacin or gentamicin), or aminopenicillins (e.g., amoxicillin or ampicillin), or third generation cephalosporins, or clindamycin, or metronidazole. "


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I've talked to my vet on a personal level and he told me that he would be happy to refund my money. However, he said that orbax is in fact used on rats for respiratory infections. Amoxicilin is a very old drug that isn't as effective as it used to be and Doxycycline is no longer on the market. Baytril is an injection and requires me to see a vet each time, which can be very expensive. This is why he prescribed me orbax. He also got his information from an exotic hospital, which is up to date with all the medicines for exotic pets. I'll keep on giving my rats orbax because my vet has persuaded me. If you feel anything that I'm saying is incorrect, please speak up.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Trenix said:


> I've talked to my vet on a personal level and he told me that he would be happy to refund my money. However, he said that orbax is in fact used on rats for respiratory infections. Amoxicilin is a very old drug that isn't as effective as it used to be and Doxycycline is no longer on the market. Baytril is an injection and requires me to see a vet each time, which can be very expensive. This is why he prescribed me orbax. He also got his information from an exotic hospital, which is up to date with all the medicines for exotic pets. I'll keep on giving my rats orbax because my vet has persuaded me. If you feel anything that I'm saying is incorrect, please speak up.


Amoxi and Doxy are still used today with great success; many don't think Amoxi is great but the Rat Lady does and she is well-respected. Doxy is prescribed daily to others... Baytril should never be given as an injection to rats is my understanding. Check out the ratguide and http://ratfanclub.org/resp.html


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

why not just get your own doxy, Amoxy and baytril? Cal vet supply, Aquatic pharm and finchniche are all good places, or look at the link directly above for a few others.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

dr.zapp said:


> why not just get your own doxy, Amoxy and baytril? Cal vet supply, Aquatic pharm and finchniche are all good places, or look at the link directly above for a few others.


You need a vet's authorization to do that and in order to get it, your pet needs to have an exam. So you're not technically getting it on your own...


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

You can get baytril without a prescription, but its usually much more concentrated, so there is some math that has to be done as to not over dose your rats. 

I purchased my baytril from a bird supply site and just read up on the dosage and measured it out. It cost me about $15 and took care of their URI's on the first round. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Trenix said:


> I've talked to my vet on a personal level and he told me that he would be happy to refund my money. However, he said that orbax is in fact used on rats for respiratory infections. Amoxicilin is a very old drug that isn't as effective as it used to be and Doxycycline is no longer on the market. Baytril is an injection and requires me to see a vet each time, which can be very expensive. This is why he prescribed me orbax. He also got his information from an exotic hospital, which is up to date with all the medicines for exotic pets. I'll keep on giving my rats orbax because my vet has persuaded me. If you feel anything that I'm saying is incorrect, please speak up.


Both medicines are still used today for rats and I have been offered both by three different vets (all of which are trained in small animal medicine including rats)... Baytril is most certainly not just an injective substance believe me, it's fed orally! The proof can easily be found in the amount of threads where people ask how to get their rats to take it! Doxycycline is also still on the market. Unfortunately your vet is talking absolute rubbish and you should find another one. As you said yourself, he's not trained in rats so he wouldn't know. I know he's a professional but there is a lot of misinformation about coming from vets' mouths surrounding rats because they're just not in the know about them.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Currently they need to be on this medicine for a week, so I'll go through with it and give him the benefit of the doubt. If they do not improve, I'll try another medicine. If you can, please let me know how I could obtain the right medicine for my young rats without a vet's authorization, since I highly doubt my vet will give it. It would also be great if you could provide the dosage.


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## rattie-love-247 (Jul 9, 2013)

ok hold up Trenix. 
#1: you do not wanna have your animals healthcare in the hands of someone who knows nothing about them & is playing the guessing game with medications. I have 6 rats on long term treatment of Amoxicillin that i buy from twincitypoultrysupplies.com 
This is what i get but theres also a 50 ct bottle...25 capsules lasts me about a month since im treating numerous animals. 

http://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=40

the standard shipping is not bad & it arrives quickly.

now what i do is open & empty 1 capsule into 7.5 ml apple juice. i put it in a very small bottle or something like that with a tight fitting lid/cap & i shake it hard for a good couple minutes to mix it up well. I also have 8ml little brown bottles that i use for each rat's prepared liquid medicine. my rats get different doses based on their different weights & i'll go into that in a sec. 

i use 1ml syringes (without the needles), you can ask for some from your pharmacy or you can order some. i bought a box of 100 sterilized single use syringes but as long as they're rinsed after each use they're ok being used multiple times. I replace the syringe every weekend with a fresh new one. 
now, as it is juice, it does not dissolve the powder completely so the powder will settle to the bottom of the bottle, so it gets a little shake before each dose. Each rat gets 2 doses per day & i do it in the morning & at night. the prepared doses need to be kept in the fridge to keep the juice cold.

for a mild URI (wheezing, sneezing) i start with 7-10 days
for moderate URI (wheezing, whomping *sound like a helicopter in the body...you'll hear this if you press the rats body to your ear & listen*) i do 10-14 days
for a severe URI (wheezing, whomping, clicking & squeaking) i do 14+ days & daily steam treatments if breathing is labored but by this point the rat has mere days, if not hours to live, if not treated quickly & aggressively.

I've lost 1 rat recently to a URI that went severe & life threatening before i realized anything was wrong. He died cuddling under my chin as i spoke to him to keep him calm, He was gone within 3 hrs. I immediately bought tetracycline (a marine antibiotic) at petsmart & dosed my entire colony's water bottles. The URI had spread through my colony & i almost lost the deceased rat's sister but steam treatments helped drastically, making her breathing easier while the medicine kicked in & started to work on her. 
After using the tetracycline for almost a month, I found the poultry supplies site & made my first order of amoxicillin capsules. I got in contact with Debbie @ theratfanclub.org via email as she has extensive rat healthcare knowledge & experience as well as experience with veterinarian care. 
((let me clarify something first about the 1 ml syringe. its a thin syringe that shows numbers in decimals 0.1 up to 0.9 & then 1 ml))

heres the weight - dose ratio:

1/4 lb = 113g = 0.1 ml
130g-250g = between 0.1-0.2 ml 
1/2 lb = 277g = 0.2 ml
280g-330g = between 0.2-0.3 ml
3/4 lb = 340g = 0.3 ml
380g-440g = between 0.3-0.4 ml
1lb = 454g = 0.4 ml
480g-550g = between 0.4-0.5 ml
1 1/4 lb = 567g = 0.5 ml

ALL my rats who get their medicine LOVE it & they push & shove for it, lol. I have my current colony of 9 split up into pairs with one girl by herself to recouperate from her recent surgery & raising of her litter. The rats all come to the front of their bins & wait impatiently for their turn as i go down the line.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Trenix said:


> I've talked to my vet on a personal level and he told me that he would be happy to refund my money. However, he said that orbax is in fact used on rats for respiratory infections. Amoxicilin is a very old drug that isn't as effective as it used to be and Doxycycline is no longer on the market. Baytril is an injection and requires me to see a vet each time, which can be very expensive. This is why he prescribed me orbax. He also got his information from an exotic hospital, which is up to date with all the medicines for exotic pets. I'll keep on giving my rats orbax because my vet has persuaded me. If you feel anything that I'm saying is incorrect, please speak up.


Since your Vet is getting his information from an "Exotic Hospital". Why not just go to that Vet?

If you tell your Vet what to give your rat and it doesn't work. Then it's not the Vet's fault. He simply gave you what you asked for. Some medications that are commonly used elsewhere are no longer used in the US. Depending on where you are will determine what medications your Vet will prescribe. 

You said, "Anyway, at first the vet didn't want to prescribe me antibiotics because they felt that they were sneezing because I recently got them". This tells me that the Vet didn't find anything wrong that would warrant him giving you medications. He only gave them because you "insisted" he give your rat "something". 

If you give an animal antibiotics when they don't need them. There's a possibility they'll do more harm than good. 

Maybe you should simply get a refund from the Vet, since he offered one, and take your rat to a Vet that "specializes" in rats. Of course, that could be hard to find. Most people don't actually take their rats to a "Vet". Many of them just purchase medications online and treat a home. Sometimes they get better and sometimes they don't. It makes it very difficult for a Vet to "specialize in rats" if they not brought into the Vet. The needed skills to specialize in a "specific animal" is pointless if they never see that "specific animal" in their clinic. At best, the most you can hope for is a Vet that specializes in "all exotics". 

Animals like rats, mice, hamsters, gerbils and other small rodents are inexpensive and the "average person" will never take them to the Vet. After all, it's cheaper to replace an animal that only lives a few years. If a Vet was to specialize in these pets that are seen by many as "disposable pets". They'd go broke and have to close up shop very quickly. More times Vets that special in "exotics" will mostly see Birds. A few will see reptiles, but even "inexpensive" reptiles are seen as "disposable pets" by the "average person". 

So, you've got to find a Vet that you feel comfortable with. It sounds like you're not comfortable with your current Vet. Even though he went to the trouble to contact an Exotic Hospital, you're still not satisfied with him. So, technically, you're also not satisfied with the Exotic Hospital he contacted to get the information about the medication he prescribed. 

At some point you're either going to have to treat your rat at home or trust your Vet. Nobody can tell you which is the better choice. That's up to you. 

Hopefully, your rat will get better soon.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Here's a link to a list of Vets that will see rats. I don't know if they "specialize in rats", but they do treat them. http://www.rmca.org/Resources/vets.htm/


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Trenix said:


> You need a vet's authorization to do that and in order to get it, your pet needs to have an exam. So you're not technically getting it on your own...


You can order from any of those stores without a vet's authorization. Why would I say you can get them yourself if you couldn't?


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Daize said:


> Since your Vet is getting his information from an "Exotic Hospital". Why not just go to that Vet?


I was planning on it, but I thought if someone treats rats, that means they specialize in them or at least knows something about them. I'm not sure why someone would check an animal that they don't know anything about. This isn't like going to the clinic about a skin rash and being redirected to a dermatologist. My vet feels that it's actually like that. No, a rat isn't like a cat or a dog. It's an entirely different animal. With that type of mentality, my vet should also be treating humans.



Daize said:


> If you tell your Vet what to give your rat and it doesn't work. Then it's not the Vet's fault. He simply gave you what you asked for. Some medications that are commonly used elsewhere are no longer used in the US. Depending on where you are will determine what medications your Vet will prescribe.


I asked for antibiotics because I've read that if your rats starts chirping, sneezing constantly, clicking, gasping for breath, and having a red discharge around their nose and eyes, that they need medication. He thought it was just because of the new home. I wasn't going to settle with that, specially since only one was sneezing and then the rest started to sneeze 3 days after, therefore this was clearly something contagious. I didn't know that he was inexperienced at first. This is what you guys are now telling me. I'm just a new pet rat owner that's trying to do what's best for my pet rats.



Daize said:


> You said, "Anyway, at first the vet didn't want to prescribe me antibiotics because they felt that they were sneezing because I recently got them". This tells me that the Vet didn't find anything wrong that would warrant him giving you medications. He only gave them because you "insisted" he give your rat "something".
> 
> If you give an animal antibiotics when they don't need them. There's a possibility they'll do more harm than good.




Must I upload a video to prove to you that they're sick?



Daize said:


> Maybe you should simply get a refund from the Vet, since he offered one, and take your rat to a Vet that "specializes" in rats. Of course, that could be hard to find. Most people don't actually take their rats to a "Vet". Many of them just purchase medications online and treat a home. Sometimes they get better and sometimes they don't. It makes it very difficult for a Vet to "specialize in rats" if they not brought into the Vet. The needed skills to specialize in a "specific animal" is pointless if they never see that "specific animal" in their clinic. At best, the most you can hope for is a Vet that specializes in "all exotics".


I think I rather do things on my own now and try to get my rats medicine without a prescription if it's possible. I just don't trust people anymore, many are inexperienced, rushed, and clumsy.



Daize said:


> Animals like rats, mice, hamsters, gerbils and other small rodents are inexpensive and the "average person" will never take them to the Vet. After all, it's cheaper to replace an animal that only lives a few years. If a Vet was to specialize in these pets that are seen by many as "disposable pets". They'd go broke and have to close up shop very quickly. More times Vets that special in "exotics" will mostly see Birds. A few will see reptiles, but even "inexpensive" reptiles are seen as "disposable pets" by the "average person".
> 
> So, you've got to find a Vet that you feel comfortable with. It sounds like you're not comfortable with your current Vet. Even though he went to the trouble to contact an Exotic Hospital, you're still not satisfied with him. So, technically, you're also not satisfied with the Exotic Hospital he contacted to get the information about the medication he prescribed.


I'm surprised why you're on his side. He didn't contact an exotic hospital for me, he said that that's where he gets his information from. Instead he gave me the number to that hospital so I can question them about his prescription, which I doubt I'll be able to speak with one of their doctors to begin with, but I will try tomorrow. He was also a complete jerk to me, yelling at me on the phone because I gave him a bad review and didn't allow me to speak. So I will get my money back in matter of fact, I feel anyone on this forums is a better vet than he is. Apparently all he told me was lies, just to make some quick cash.



Daize said:


> At some point you're either going to have to treat your rat at home or trust your Vet. Nobody can tell you which is the better choice. That's up to you.


This isn't about me or a vet, it's about doing what's best for my rats. His medicine DIDN'T work, nor does anyone on this forums use it. So I'm getting the indication that he just guesses and bags his cash. In fact, the only reason he is willing to give my money back was if I removed my review. He said that normally doesn't do this.



dr.zapp said:


> You can order from any of those stores without a vet's authorization. Why would I say you can get them yourself if you couldn't?


I'll check it again but I could of swore the website said that it needs to contact my vet before I could purchase it.



rattie-love-247 said:


> This is what i get but theres also a 50 ct bottle...25 capsules lasts me about a month since im treating numerous animals.


Thank you so much! I will most likely try this as soon as possible! Thank you!


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## rattie-love-247 (Jul 9, 2013)

Hi trenix,
Im glad i could help & all the info i provided was not provided by a vet (& i realize that might sound bad) but it was all my own internet research which took days & consulting with Debbie the rat lady with theratfanclub.org. 
heres a rat medication guide...

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/ratdrugs.pdf

The medication doseage info i gave you in my previous lengthy post is all my own experience & what i currently do to treat my multiple rats with mild URI's right now. 

The steam treatments can literally save lives (as it did one of my girls, the sister to the boy i lost & there was a night that this girl went severe on me too so i spent some time cuddling her like i did her brother thinking i was losing her but just when it seemed like she was giving up & letting go she'd suddenly perk up & fight it so i decided to fight FOR her as long as she continued to fight for herself too & it worked.) PLUS it's a natural remedy that people use too for nasal congestion. Trust me it works. 

In the begginning, treating these URI's i was using tetracycline while i looked for a way to get something better & found the amoxicillin at that site i linked you.
even though tetracycline is technically a fish antibiotic its still an antibiotic & it IS on the rat medication guide so i bought some.I figured it couldnt hurt at that point. Theres 10 packets of powder in the box at petsmart & it cost me close to $13 (with tax).
It DID help in getting the URI's under control initally but it's not recommended for long term use which is why i was also looking for something better. 
I'm not opposed to non traditional treatments if it can help at all. 
The tetracycline treatment if you choose to go that route has to be dissolved in their water bottles & the bottles have to be covered since the antibiotic in the water will break down if light gets to it. I used blue painters tape & wrapped all the bottles in it. 
You dissolve 1 packet in 4 1/2 cups water & give ea. rat 3-4 oz. at a time per day so its not sitting too long. the rest can be stored in a bottle in the fridge (i used empty 16 oz. bottles from bottled water we had sitting around & i covered those bottles in tape too just to err on the side of caution). the leftovers in the fridge should be used in 3 days & whatevers left at end of the 3rd day needs to be dumped & a new batch mixed up to keep a fresh supply on hand. 
Tetracycline needs to be given over 2-4 weeks so a 10 pck supply will last you that entire time. 

Rat's URI's arent like ours where antibiotics for a few days will kill it off. their immune systems are much smaller & weaker so URI's are common with them. Treating a rat's URI can be a lengthy process & depending on the severity & how late treatment starts, it can take awhile. 
Now its been said here that all rats carry Mycoplasma, which is true, it just takes a secondary infection like an upper respiratory infection or pneumonia to make the myco flare up. Treatment is based on attacking the secondary infection first. 

I wish you the best of luck in treating your ratties.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Telling me that treating this infection takes time, makes me think that the antibiotics my vet prescribed me might be doing it's job, it just needs more time. However, I see absolutely no improvement and if anything I've seeing them get worse. So it's this conflict that's been bothering for a week now. Maybe it'll be best to buy the antibiotics that is known to work, rather than one that's unheard of.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

The rats being treated are only a few months old; if they are under 4 months, they should NOT be given tetracycline, doxycycline or Baytril unless absolutely necessary. http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/
In young rats the first option is Amoxycillin http://ratfanclub.org/resp.html Tylosin http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/tylosin.php or azithromycin http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/azithromycin.php

Giving strong tasting drugs in water is not recommended- you cannot be sure of the dosage unless you house all the rats individually. It also causes dehydration, which can be severe in some rats that dislike the taste and won't drink enough. Some think it is simply inhumane to limit their ability to drink. Giving the drugs in some form of treat that the rats enjoy is the most accepted method of delivery. 

You would probably find this thread very useful- it answers most of your questions- http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?76786-Baytril-Amoxy-URI-treatment-on-a-tight-budget. 

The comments by Rattie-love-247 on a rat's immune system being "weaker" are wrong. Their immune system is almost identical to our own, and in some cases more effective- most of what we know of mammalian immunity was learned from rats, mice and rabbits.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Trenix said:


> Telling me that treating this infection takes time, makes me think that the antibiotics my vet prescribed me might be doing it's job, it just needs more time. However, I see absolutely no improvement and if anything I've seeing them get worse. So it's this conflict that's been bothering for a week now. Maybe it'll be best to buy the antibiotics that is known to work, rather than one that's unheard of.


You should see improvement within 3-5 days. If not, change the treatment. When he says long term, he means that you keep treating them for 14-30 days, even if all the symptoms are gone.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

dr.zapp said:


> You should see improvement within 3-5 days. If not, change the treatment. When he says long term, he means that you keep treating them for 14-30 days, even if all the symptoms are gone.


Thanks for your quick response, I will get the medicine as soon as possible. Is it true that I require different antibiotics for different respiratory infections, for example upper and lower?


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm done with trying to defend my vet, my rats are getting worse. I just purchased the medicine and thank everyone for your help.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

dr.zapp said:


> Giving strong tasting drugs in water is not recommended- you cannot be sure of the dosage unless you house all the rats individually. It also causes dehydration, which can be severe in some rats that dislike the taste and won't drink enough. Some think it is simply inhumane to limit their ability to drink. Giving the drugs in some form of treat that the rats enjoy is the most accepted method of delivery.


Does that mean that using Rattie-love-247's idea is bad being that apple juice is being used, which clearly contains water? Also your tight budget post tells me to get drugs that my rats shouldn't be on being that they're younger than a month, as you stated. Also what's the purpose of using two different antibiotics at one given time? Do they work together or is it just the guessing game of which will actually work?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Trenix said:


> Does that mean that using Rattie-love-247's idea is bad being that apple juice is being used, which clearly contains water? Also your tight budget post tells me to get drugs that my rats shouldn't be on being that they're younger than a month, as you stated. Also what's the purpose of using two different antibiotics at one given time? Do they work together or is it just the guessing game of which will actually work?


Putting drugs in water BOTTLES is not recommended. If their water tastes funny to them they won't drink it, which puts them at risk of dehydration, and there's really no way to measure how much of the medication each rat is consuming. Measure it up and give it to them like any other drug -whether you wrap them in a towel and shoot into their cheek with a needleless syringe or mix it into something tasty like baby food, jelly, watered down peanut butter, etc, just don't put it in their water bottles.

The consequences of leaving a URI untreated for too long are much worse than the consequences of using an antibiotic on a young rat. We know Baytril works well for most myco cases. Even if it may cause some stunted cartiladge growth, it's much better to have a slightly smaller rat than a rat left with permanent lung scarring, or worse, a dead one from pneumonia.

Combination antibiotics serve a few purposes. Since Myco is so common in rats, there are undoubtably antibiotic-resistant strains out there. Using two at once gives you a greater chance of success at kicking the target infection while also treating/preventing any secondary infections.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Jaguar said:


> Putting drugs in water BOTTLES is not recommended. If their water tastes funny to them they won't drink it, which puts them at risk of dehydration, and there's really no way to measure how much of the medication each rat is consuming. Measure it up and give it to them like any other drug -whether you wrap them in a towel and shoot into their cheek with a needleless syringe or mix it into something tasty like baby food, jelly, watered down peanut butter, etc, just don't put it in their water bottles.The consequences of leaving a URI untreated for too long are much worse than the consequences of using an antibiotic on a young rat. We know Baytril works well for most myco cases. Even if it may cause some stunted cartiladge growth, it's much better to have a slightly smaller rat than a rat left with permanent lung scarring, or worse, a dead one from pneumonia.Combination antibiotics serve a few purposes. Since Myco is so common in rats, there are undoubtably antibiotic-resistant strains out there. Using two at once gives you a greater chance of success at kicking the target infection while also treating/preventing any secondary infections.


 Thanks for the info! I'll try to get another antibiotic.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Anyone know where I could buy tylosin or azithromycin at a local store, possibly giving me the dosage information as well.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Well I went out and looked for a feed/tack store and found one really close to me. They were selling amoxicillin capsules with a product labeled, "fish mox". It's 250 MG just like the capsule on the website, but it instead comes with 60 capsules rather than only 25. The total price was $17, making it a much better idea to buy it from there than the website since shipping is so expensive. However my product already got shipped out and I couldn't cancel it on time. Anyhow, I bought it anyway and got them started on the medicine. They were sneezing, squeaking, coughing, snorting, all night to the point that I seriously thought I was going to lose one of them. Thankfully I woke up with them all alive. Strangely it seems like as soon as I gave them the medicine, they're no longer sneezing continuously. Hopefully this will work, if not the store had a bunch of other products that I could use as well.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Edit: you replied while I was writing- looks like you found the amoxi at least.

You will probably not find these particular drugs locally without a prescription unless you have a well-stocked feed store or bird supply. The Tylan you want is the injectable (unless you have a gram scale, you have no way to measure the powder) like this http://www.jedds.com/-strse-442/TYLAN-50-INJECTION-100/Detail.bok I have to know the weight of your rats to give you the correct dose... somewhere inthe 10mg/kg range.. for a small rat @ about 200 g, that would be 2 mg/dose... the above tylan is 50mg/ml, 2mg / 50mg/ml = 0.04ml... don't try to measure out each dose, do it in 10x batches or something like that, so you measure 0.4 ml and mix it into something your rats like (peanut butter, nutella, apple sauce, etc..) and then divide that up into 10 equal portions. 

Zithro can be ordered from http://www.aquaticpharmacy.com/eshop ifo about it is here-http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/azithromycin.php


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

dr.zapp said:


> Edit: you replied while I was writing- looks like you found the amoxi at least.
> 
> You will probably not find these particular drugs locally without a prescription unless you have a well-stocked feed store or bird supply. The Tylan you want is the injectable (unless you have a gram scale, you have no way to measure the powder) like this http://www.jedds.com/-strse-442/TYLAN-50-INJECTION-100/Detail.bok I have to know the weight of your rats to give you the correct dose... somewhere inthe 10mg/kg range.. for a small rat @ about 200 g, that would be 2 mg/dose... the above tylan is 50mg/ml, 2mg / 50mg/ml = 0.04ml... don't try to measure out each dose, do it in 10x batches or something like that, so you measure 0.4 ml and mix it into something your rats like (peanut butter, nutella, apple sauce, etc..) and then divide that up into 10 equal portions.
> 
> Zithro can be ordered from http://www.aquaticpharmacy.com/eshop ifo about it is here-http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/azithromycin.php


Thanks for all the info, I will definitely save it for later. Right now I'll see how this antibiotic works out for me. I'm using a scale that measures 3kg x 25g and 7lbs x 1oz. I might eventually get a more expensive scale if I must, one that's meant for grams. If you have any recommended scales form Wal-Mart/Target please fill me in. I will most likely not be doing injections though, just don't like the idea of it. My rats are about 100g each.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

I am not recommending that you do injections, that Tylan can be mixed in with food and given orally as well.

You don't need to be that accurate to weigh rats.. 1 g accuracy is good, which most $20 kitchen scales will do just fine.


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## rattie-love-247 (Jul 9, 2013)

If im wrong on the rats immune systems comment i made then i apologize but thats what i thought & believed. I am corrected on that.
However i was also instructed to put the tetracycline in the water bottles & MY rats had no problem drinking it. If someone else had a different experience then that is their difference but that cannot be said that i didnt have the success i had with it. It was only a short term option while i looked for a better antibiotic.
The instruction i received to use apple juice with the amoxicillin im currently treating my rats with was also provided by Debbie "the rat lady" with theratfanclub.org, here also & numerous friends & the fact that my rats are more then willing to take it this way is how i've been successful in keeping all the URI's at a mild state. all my rats are still lively, playful, interactive, eating/drinking & pooing well so their condition has improved quite a bit thus only proving my success more. It is working so that is going to be my recommendation so for those saying my advice is wrong, thats not acceptable & i wont let someone come in & throw my advice out the window just because its a different method. 
& i previously posted very detailed information on weight to dose ratios. I re-check my rats weights every weekend to know when i have to increase/decrease their doses so it ALWAYS consitant & correct for their weight. ALL of my rats in treatment have gained some weight back, further pointing back to their improving health.
I followed the dosing guide on theratguide.com & figured out how to correctly dose each of my rats by their individual weights & it is all correct & has been verified by knowledgeable professionals so...
insinuating that i dont know what im talking about by saying that all or most of my advice is wrong or try to change it is bull. 
I tried to be helpful with my little bit of knowledge.
Trenix, either way i see that you see a need to do what you have to do to treat your rats & i sincerily wish you the best of luck & hope for a good outcome for you.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I am glad your treatment has worked for you and your rats. But what's worked for you doesn't always work for everyone. The water bottle method is generally used by new rat owners who have limited access to proper documentation on rat health and care. Even I used it on my very first rat, Miles, when I didn't know any better. It didn't help and I had to take him to the vet to get a prescription for Baytril anyways. All it did for me was waste precious time while his disease progressed.

I take Debbie D's advice with a grain of salt. She's got a lot of questionable advice in her articles, such as how to euthanize your rats at home. (?!?!?!) And a lot of her articles are very dated - health care for rats has really advanced since her older articles were written. My advice comes from participating in & modding this forum for nearly 3 years, owning rats for much longer myself, seeing many, MANY sick rats come and go, and treating plenty of my own. I have seen what works, what doesn't work, and what may work sometimes, for some people, under special circumstances. I am certainly not "The Rat Lady" but I would not need a title like that to assert my knowledge anyways. 

Even Ratguide says the following:



> It is not recommended to put medication in the rat’s water bottle. You have no way to monitor dosage with this method. Another concern with water medicating is that the taste of the medication may actually discourage the rat from taking in fluids, which can be extremely dangerous for an already sick rat. Some medications should not be mixed with dairy products. Consult with your vet before doing so.


Amoxicilin, Tetracycline, whatever you use - just avoid the water bottle method. You want to see & know how much medication is getting into your rats. It's really no more inconvenience to mix up a batch every few days and syringe it into some tasty food.


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## rattie-love-247 (Jul 9, 2013)

right. as i stated though, i only used the tetracycline to get the URI's started with a medication so i wouldnt lose any more rats while i looked for a better alternative as i had JUST tragically lost one of my males & his sister was getting worse.
At one point i was sure i was losing her too but she fought it, i began intense steam treatments which helped tremendously with the labored breathing, then the amoxicillin i'd ordered showed up & i started dosing all my rats immediately using the dosing information i'd gathered.
The girl i almost lost has improved drastically as has my entire colony. 
While i recognize MY success may not apply to every situation, it's still my only available advise. I never said the Original poster should use tetracycline only & nothing else & stated that it was only a temporary option for me & i believe that an option is still an option & its better then nothing or a vet that doesnt seem to know how to treat the situation appropriately as was the situation with the original poster of this thread. 
I'm working on expanding my knowledge & experience so i can continue being able to deal with situations as they arise & feel its better to arm myself with knowledge & maybe help others along the way. but in no way shape or form, am i calling myself or even considering myself, a professional. I recognize my own shortcomings & mistakes & am constantly improving on that.
Now although most situation are best left in the care of a knowledgeable, appropriately trained veterinarian, not all situations can be that cut & dry nor is the option to take an animal to a vet an option for every owner in every situation so knowing what to do in a situation that CAN be treated at home is beneficial & should be available knowledge for ALL rat owners. 
I've had a rat with a mammory tumor, first time for me & i knew immediately that that was out of my hands & i required the care of a vet to get that taken care of. 
Ended up with a $300 vet bill but that was a worthy investment in that it was taken care of quickly & never progressed to threatening the life of the girl. She's doing great now. 
But anyhow, while i know that opinions & what people believe to be right or wrong is gonna differ, i will cease & desist this go around & just agree that some of us disagree here & move on.
Again to trenix, Wish you the best of luck.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I understand. But that's what the forum is for - to share information and learn from one another. Our goal is to get Trenix's rats feeling better while working around his/her situation. If you have to use fish medication and alternate medications I understand, but it is very important to make sure the rats are getting the right amount of the medication on a consistent schedule. The last thing we want is them getting more sick, whether by dehydration, advancement of the disease, or having the bacteria build up a resistance from the inconsistent dosing.


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## rattie-love-247 (Jul 9, 2013)

right & i have mine on a twice daily scedule that i keep written down on the fridge & i mark off the doses i give every day (no longer using the tetracycline) now its just the amoxicillin. I stated that i weigh my rats weekly to keep their doses consistant with their weight & keeps the treatment appropriate for them & i've said they're all improving. 
Sharing knowledge & information & learning from each other, ok, I had that same goal in mind & that is why i shared my knowledge & experience with Trenix & went into detail on how to dose according to weights & showed extensive detailed information on this. The dosing information i gave is for amoxicillin. other medicines are gonna have different dosing formulas. if my dosing info for the tetracycline is be disregarded then fine but all the amoxicillin information i gave is correct & is what i am doing currently. nobody in this thread has gone to detail in how to do amoxicillin doses & i even had a thread of my own where i was trying to get help to calculate this but received no helpful response so i got the help elsewhere & now its working.
It doesnt matter really, i just dont want someone saying that my information is wrong or to be made to look like i dont know what im talking about because what i recommended wasnt what someone else here would've said. I'm done now. this is pointless, im sick & frustrated & need to go take care of my ratties.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

The method is working, I was finally able to sleep without hearing my rats dying from their URI. However I'm having some problems with the medicine. They despise taking it with a passion, I have to force it on them and I hate doing that. Also because I'm using apple juice, its really hard to feed them from my finger tips which they enjoy doing. If there is any solid recipe for this medicine, please fill me in. Whatever the case, this worked better than the vet's prescription, which is an embarrassment. Thanks so much for your help, I think my girls will get to live for many years now.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

you can mix amoxicillin with anything. If they don't like peanut butter or nutella, I have used whipping cream, maple or chocolate syrup, baby food peas, green beans and banana. You can blender any fruit or veggie your rats like and mix it in. Since you are using the 250 mg capsules, your rats are ~ 100g, if you are giving the lower 22 mg/kg dose, then you have 2.2 mg/dose, so you have 114 doses for each 250 mg capsule. If you are giving 0.2 ml each time (you have a 1 ml syringe?), then mix one capsule with 22.8 ml of whatever you want (peas, apple sauce, whipping cream, etc.. Of course if you are giving more drug (up to 100 mg/kg) you would need less mix, but as you increase drug concentration, you may need to give it with more treat to offset the taste (maybe 0.4 ml instead of 0.2).
you can divide the amoxicillin in half if you want to mix up less at one time. Carefully pull the capsule apart, keeping the half side (the one that goes around the outside) up, so all the powder stays in the inner section that is full length. Fill up the half section with drug from the full one; you now have 2 x 125mg.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Cranberry juice worked well for my rats. It was tart enough to cover the yucky taste of the antibiotics!


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

I mix mine with a managerie of insanely sweet (and unhealthy items) sugar water, grape juice and coffee creamer (the sweetened kind) all mixed together with the meds. They BEG for that stuff.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm thinking about making medicine balls because it'll be way more convenient and this powder doesn't seem to mix well with liquids. It's getting stuck in my 1ml syringe so I have a big feeling that they're getting a lot lower dosage than needed. I also don't get how you guys give them a liquid, I only have one rat that drinks from the syringe like it's a water bottle, the rest are afraid of it. It's also a guarantee that a drop or two of their medicine will get wasted because they don't understand that I'm trying to make them take it. If I squirt some of the medicine on a mashed banana, some of the medicine will be left behind on the cutting board. Let me know if I'm acting like too much of a perfectionist, I tend to do that a lot.

Anyway I wanna try doing this... http://ratguide.com/meds/figures/compounding_medications_figure_1.php

So because my rats are ~100g, they should be getting 2.2mg of amoxicillin just like dr. zapp said. That means that because I'm using a capsule which is 250mg, I'll have to cut up ~113-114 medicine balls. While this will be time consuming and frustrating, I believe that I can pull it off. This is the math that I came up with, so I'm just making sure that I'm doing it right. This should be the same thing as mixing it with water I believe, if you find my math or this idea flawed, please let me know. If you know a better way than me cutting up over a hundred medicine balls, please fill me in. Once again, thank you everyone for your help!


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## lcs (Feb 7, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your troubles, I know how tough it can be! One of my boys is on two medications that he will take for the rest of his life, one is a pill and the other a liquid. I crush the pill on a large spoon with a smaller spoon, add a liquid/mush he likes-about 2ml or so-add the liquid medication and then stir. He licks it from the spoon no problem. Usually I use Ensure, but he also likes applesauce, yogurt, pudding, etc.

Good luck and good for you for trying so hard to make your rattie feel better!


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

The medicine balls worked like a charm, highly advise everyone to do it. I'm hoping my dosage was correct, I mixed the peanut butter intensively.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

A little bit more to add, if you're going to make medicine balls, don't use too much peanut butter. Try to use as little as possible because it takes mine quite awhile to eat it all and I need to take their food bowl away an hour prior so they could be hungry enough to eat their medicine. Otherwise, medicine balls are highly recommended. Two of my rats stopped sneezing almost completely, maybe only once or twice a day tops, which is amazing because one of them sneezed ALL DAY straight once. However the sickest one got a little worse, but is now slowly getting better. So I'm just continuing with their two times a day doses.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

That dose is correct. If the one rat does not continue to improve increase to 4 mg for him. I like making big batches like that for consistency.

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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Yeah I'll get her started on 4 mg right away because I'm not sure if she's getting any better. I'm just glad that my other two rats are doing great and haven't been sneezing at all, I'm about to take them off their medication soon. Anyway, with my own personal experience, Orbax doesn't work at all and if any vet prescribes it, then you need to seriously walk out of the exam room and ask for your money back. All three of my rats showed NO improvement with this medicine what-so-ever and it's apparently stronger than amoxicillin. However, amoxicillin has so far effectively treated two of my rats with their respiratory infection.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

So the sickest rat isn't getting any better, I gave her 3.3 mg instead of 4 mg since I heard you should only give 10-15 mg per pound is the max. So being that she's ~100 g, that would be the calculation. I could up it to 4 mg if you think I should. She has been making way more clicking sounds and is A LOT less active than usual. If you think I should change her medicine, let me know. I remember seeing terramycin soluble powder at the tack and feed store. If not that, then maybe I could find something else.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Amoxicillin can be given up to 50 mg/kg... I have seen 100 mg/kg but can't remember the ref now. I would try adding something else with a different mechanism, either tylan or zithro... baytril if one of those doesn't work. Baytril has a risk of stunted growth... but at lest he will be alive to have growth...

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## rightwing (Sep 7, 2013)

I don't have any advice to offer as I am a new rat owner, but wanted to tell you I am sorry your having to go through all this. You must be incredibly stressed and worried. Try to offer your little rattie as much TLC as you can right now... and take care of yourself too


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm thinking about getting tylan soluble powder and making medicine balls for my sickest rat, which name is Bella. Should I just change her medicine or give her both tylan and amoxicillin?


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Both

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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I still got orbax, should I put her on orbax and amoxicillin at the same time and see what happens? Maybe the Orbax needed a combination for it to work? Let me know what you think about Orbax, otherwise I'll try and get some tylosin tomorrow.


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## klibankatz (Sep 10, 2013)

Wow, this sounds like a nightmare. One of my boys (6 weeks at the time) had a URI when I got him and my vet (who I didn't think was stellar either) prescribed me 0.2cc of sulfamethoxazole-trimethoprim daily, which worked, despite how I read it wasn't as effective as Baytril. I'd try the Baytril, especially since everyone else seems to think that's the way to go. My guy was sneezing a lot (every few seconds) and developed chest congestion by the time I got my vet appointment. At the very least I would go to a different vet.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/orbifloxacin.php It may help, I don't have any experience with it, but it has the same risks as Baytril for young rats, so Tylan would be safer, but I cannot say which would be more effective.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I'll put her on it and see what happens. This is all I have currently...


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

My rat Bella is once again having it bad. I really don't even get it anymore, she just doesn't stop sneezing, sometimes she seems like she's getting better, other times she goes crazy with sneezes. Does this usually happen when treating a rat with URI? She's been on amoxicillin for at least 3 weeks now. The only other medication that I can get her currently is terramycin soluble powder which would be a horrible idea. I would need to buy a whole new water bottle and separate her from the rest of the rats which recently got cured from their URI. Buying another medicine online would be really expensive and might come too soon. Is there anything else that I can possibly do? Anything that I could pick up from a regular tack and feed store or a pharmacy that doesn't require a perscription? Anything cheap that I can get from the internet that'll guarantee it'll work?

I'm starting to think that she wont ever stop sneezing, like her lungs are already damaged from the way she was previously handled. Let me know if you think I should take her off the medication. Why bother having her on medicine that isn't even working.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

There are medicines that can be given to a rat for the rest of its life to deal with lung damage, but you'd have to go to an exotics vet. My girl almost got put on them.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Thankfully I found something related to tylosin and It could be found in local bird shops which luckily there is one near me. It's called erythromycin comes in a brand called ornacyn and it can apparently be given orally. If I can't find that at my local bird shop, then hopefully they carry baytril at the very least. Wish me luck...


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Apparently erythromycin is very commonly sold as fish medicine. So I'm going to pick that up today and going to do the whole medicine ball thing again. I wonder if I should give Bella erythromycin and amoxicillin at the same time.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

I would not take her off the amoxicillin- often two different classes of antibiotics used together have a synergistic effect and work better.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm giving up, nothing is working for bella at all. I have three different medicines, all seemed to be working at first, but then she goes back to sneezing. She doesn't even want to take the erythromycin balls anymore to the point that she would rather starve than eat them, which is quite strange because she enjoyed eating them for the first few days. However, it seems like she stopped clicking so at least that's good, but she still sneezes uncontrollably. She used to be the most sociable rat, but now all she does is eat, drink, and then go back to sleep. I'm planning on taking her off the medicine entirely, it's already been 3 weeks and no progression. I'm pretty sure that having her on medicine for over a month isn't going to help her URI.


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Never mind, she need her medicine, she got way worse after I took her off of it. However, she only takes amoxicillin and refuses erythromycin. I believe the erythromycin worked the best for her but she can sense it and it's impossible to hide it in her treats now. How do I force feed her solid foods, it's impossible.


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## lcs (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm sorry you're still having such a rough time! Have you tried mixing the eythromycin with liquids she'd like? My boy gets a crushed pill of enalapril for his heart and liquid furosemide for his lungs every day mixed in Ensure and he loves it. You could also try yogurt, syrup, or maybe ice cream; anything she might find yummy.

You're a good rat mom! Keep trying!


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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

lcs said:


> I'm sorry you're still having such a rough time! Have you tried mixing the eythromycin with liquids she'd like? My boy gets a crushed pill of enalapril for his heart and liquid furosemide for his lungs every day mixed in Ensure and he loves it. You could also try yogurt, syrup, or maybe ice cream; anything she might find yummy.
> 
> You're a good rat mom! Keep trying!


"Dad" and thanks, I'll see what I can do.


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## Minigeko (Sep 18, 2013)

In my opinion you're at the point with her to go to a better vet. The money you're spending on the wrong medicine could be paying for the right stuff. Don't drop all vets because of one, my rat cheddar got orbax as well because she had a book that said to give that stuff. Cheddar was bigger so he got .2 ml and it worked for me, although we caught it early. If she was clicking she's worse than any of my rats have ever gotten.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

What bedding are you using?

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## Trenix (Aug 30, 2013)

Fleece.


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