# A little Rant do not mean to offend



## Batman

okay, so yes I am a pet owner of a rats. Over the years I have had 25 rats not all at once, but my rat addiction came to me when I was around 13 my first pet was a rat. It is very hard for me to be put in a situation weather or not it is okay for people to feed live rats to snakes. <br><br>On one hand I know that some snakes will not take frozen so they have no choice, but to feed live. I also know that it is nature for a snake to eat various things. However, when you put a live rat in with a snake the snake could get hurt if the rat fought back. The other thing is that in the wild the snake would have gone after the weak link. So this is why I am torn I here so many people complaining that oh well if you support this decision then you can't be a "real rat owner as a pet"

Also I know people say not to get rats from the pet stores, but I do think it is okay if you know what your looking for in a rat to make sure they have no marks, or discharge. I also think it would be okay, if you went into a pet store and you see rats in ferrit nation cages, the male and females in their own cage, and she shows you the vet records, and shows them papers that have no cross breeding.

So for now my decision is up in the air about where to get rats from...so that was my rant sorry for offending if i did


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## WhiteWidoW

I am a snake keeper and I know lots of them, there are a lot of types of snakes and a lot of types of keepers. I have fed my snake frozen since the first week of life and now she eats frozen with no problem, the problem comes when you buy WC snakes (wild captive) because these snakes, in my opinion, are not made to be captive and it's really difficult to keep them, these snakes are sometimes really hard to feed and you have to do a lot of "tricks" to feed them like giving live food.

In one hand you have the "good" snake keeper that respects life but I know lots of them that enjoy seeing a rat dying, maybe Freud has something to say about them...

But on the other hand you know that a rat can have 6-10 puppies in a hatch and we usually care of them and all survive, while in nature the half of them would die, maybe cannibalism, maybe no nutrition, maybe a snake... Just one of every 4 will arrive to adults so that's nature, someone has to die to keep other ones alive, the stronger survives, but we must be responsable and respect life.


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## nanashi7

I strongly wish snakes would be CB more than WC. It would make the world so ideal.


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## cagedbirdsinging

Another snake owner here and seconding the fact that there are all different types of owners, no matter what the species. There are all sorts of people that disrespect and have no care for lives that aren't their own and do whatever they'd like with them. It's sad.

It's really up to you as to where you get your rats. There is no rush. Thoroughly research all of your options and make the best decision for yourself.


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## Xerneas

Cagedbirdsinging, are you the member on the cornsnake forums with your girl Maya? I lurk there frequently. She is gorgeous


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## cagedbirdsinging

Yes, Maya's mine. =)


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## Xerneas

Sorry for double posting, but I got pushed back the 10 minutes due to computer crash. I was going to say that I think it's perfectly fine for people to buy from pet stores. There's no pet stores around here with rats that live in FNs or any stores that will give you breeding records or anything, probably due to being supplied from mills. But some people don't have breeders or trustworthy ones near them. If the rats at the pet store are genuinely healthy looking and friendly I don't see any harm in it. Lots of people buy from pet stores.


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## Daniel

I am quite anti-keeping snakes as pets (for me at least). The level of care required for an animal that cares not one whit for you is not something I could ever do. And then there are the people who own the big snakes which require not rats but rabbits for meals - I could not handle the LOUD screaming that the rabbits do when preyed upon. 

Then there are the people online who have a 'rodent room' just for their own snakes. I've always wondered - at what point do these people say 'I have too many snakes'.? People who have whole trailers or sheds devoted to breeding rodents for snakes, it's insanity to me.


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## Xerneas

Daniel said:


> I am quite anti-keeping snakes as pets. The level of care required for an animal that cares not one whit for you is not something I could ever do. And then there are the people who own the


It's not actually very hard to take care of snakes... Giant snakes YES, but something like a corn snake is very simple. A basic care sheet would tell you to get a 20 or 30gal tank, put some aspen in it, an under-tank heater and thermostat, a water dish, some thermometers and 2 or 3 places to sleep in and maybe a few things to climb on. Feed once a week and scoop up any messes. Some people go more advanced than this but that's really all there is to it. You can even make a lot of their decorations at home using stuff like deli cups. They're quite easy. I think they are much simpler than rats.


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## Daniel

Xerneas said:


> It's not actually very hard to take care of snakes... Giant snakes YES, but something like a corn snake is very simple. A basic care sheet would tell you to get a 20 or 30gal tank, put some aspen in it, an under-tank heater and thermostat, a water dish, some thermometers and 2 or 3 places to sleep in and maybe a few things to climb on. Feed once a week and scoop up any messes. Some people go more advanced than this but that's really all there is to it. You can even make a lot of their decorations at home using stuff like deli cups. They're quite easy. I think they are much simpler than rats.


Most people go further than that. I see separate feeding tanks recommended in most places.


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## Divit

Xerneas said:


> Cagedbirdsinging, are you the member on the cornsnake forums with your girl Maya? I lurk there frequently. She is gorgeous





cagedbirdsinging said:


> Yes, Maya's mine. =)


oh... a corn snake forum?? What's the link? I have a cornsnake too. Hope no one minds if I post his photo... 









Care is really simple -- just as xerneas states. I feed frozen. I never once considered a feeder tank.


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## Xerneas

Daniel said:


> Most people go further than that. I see separate feeding tanks recommended in most places.


A separate feeding TANK isn't really necessary, some people don't use it. You can use a cardboard box or tupperware. It's widely debated but it is thought to help the snake distinguish between handling time and feeding time.

@Divit- http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/


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## Daniel

I have to admit, although I would actually say I hate snakes, I had considered a Rough Green Snake since it has more in common with Green Tree Frogs than other snakes feeding wise. (and their tank setups are fairly close)


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## Divit

Xerneas said:


> A separate feeding TANK isn't really necessary, some people don't use it. You can use a cardboard box or tupperware. It's widely debated but it is thought to help the snake distinguish between handling time and feeding time.
> 
> @Divit- http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/


I may have misunderstood. I was thinking feeder tank where one raises mice or rats to feed the snake. -as opposed to a feeding tank where one just moves the snake to a different tank or box while feeding it. I've never considered raising mice for food because the snake is just fed so infrequently that it wouldn't seem worth the effort. 

thanks for the link


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## Daize

Batman said:


> okay, so yes I am a pet owner of a rats. Over the years I have had 25 rats not all at once, but my rat addiction came to me when I was around 13 my first pet was a rat. It is very hard for me to be put in a situation weather or not it is okay for people to feed live rats to snakes. <br><br>On one hand I know that some snakes will not take frozen so they have no choice, but to feed live. I also know that it is nature for a snake to eat various things. However, when you put a live rat in with a snake the snake could get hurt if the rat fought back. The other thing is that in the wild the snake would have gone after the weak link. So this is why I am torn I here so many people complaining that oh well if you support this decision then you can't be a "real rat owner as a pet"
> 
> Also I know people say not to get rats from the pet stores, but I do think it is okay if you know what your looking for in a rat to make sure they have no marks, or discharge. I also think it would be okay, if you went into a pet store and you see rats in ferrit nation cages, the male and females in their own cage, and she shows you the vet records, and shows them papers that have no cross breeding.
> 
> So for now my decision is up in the air about where to get rats from...so that was my rant sorry for offending if i did


The only reason to feed live is with a "WC" reptile. The captive bred reptiles will never require "live food", unless you're talking about "insects". Snakes in the wild don't go after the "weak link". In the wild snakes are "opportunistic feeders". The vast majority of them will lay in wait for a meal to pass by. Then they'll strike. So, it's not a matter of survival of the fittest rodent in the wild. It's all a matter of luck. 

Back to the subject of feeding live. I've been to Reptile Shows. I've talked to many snake breeders. One individual told me he produces over 30,000 corn snakes a year. He had about 600 hatchlings in "individual deli cups". So, I believe he probably does breed that many. He doesn't sell them until they're on frozen/thawed. He offers live pinkies to get them started eating, then it's frozen/thawed from that point on. Another person bred Ball Pythons. He claimed to produce over 10,000 year. With him, I suspect he imports that many. I could be wrong, but that was the feeling I got talking to him. He also said he wouldn't sell an animal that wouldn't take frozen/thawed. Many times at the Reptile Shows they'll have pictures of what happens when you put a live animal in with a snake. It's generally the person selling frozen feeders, but it still makes a strong point for feeding frozen. The majority of reptile owners don't feed live!

BTW People complain about the conditions of "Rat Mills". Seems to me there should be some concerns about conditions at places that mass produce snakes as well. I think both Rat Mills and Snake Mills should be regulated better to make usre the animals are treated humanely. Yeah, the rats are going to be feeders and the snakes are going to be pets. It's not the same...... Anyway, if you ever checked out how they house breeding snakes. Most would be disgusted at how they treat them. Some are forced to produce 2 clutches of eggs a year. This can shorten their lives considerably and...... It's all done in the name of the "All Mighty Dollar"!!

Now, there are some that require live. These are generally animals that have been taken from the wild. I'm not against owning snakes, but I'm 100% against taking a snake from the wild. There's more than enough people doing captive breeding. So, it's pointless to deplete animals from the wild. Anyway, for the ones taken from the wild. It's not their fault that they need live food. The fault would be on the people that thoughtlessly took them from the wild. 

I'm not even going to comment on those that just get a "rush" out of feeding live. The only words that can describe those people..... Well, those words aren't allowed on this forum.

As to Pet Shop rats. I love all types of rats. I don't care where they came from. The only thing that matters is giving them a happy life after you get them home. Some of these Pet Shops are cleaner than others. Some breed their own rodents in the back room. Some get their rodents from "back yard breeders". Sometimes they have sickly animals and sometimes they have healty ones. If you have a "reputable" breeder to get them from. Rumor is that's the best place, as far as lineage and health. If you have a Rescue or Shelter you can go to. That's also a place to consider. Craigslist always has rats, from time to time or all the time. That's a choice. There's even Pet Shops out there that have "healty" rats. 

Rats will always be bred for a variety of purposes. Choosing one source over another, for a pet rat,will not end the different puroses that rats are bred for. So, get your rat/s where you want. It's all good.


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