# Punishing Rats



## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

What's the most effective way to punish a rat? I've tried bopping on the nose, speaking harshly, and doing time out in the cage and no matter what I do they just don't care and go right back to doing whatever they want. 


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## Bronte18 (Jun 2, 2014)

You should never hit your rat, even a tap on the nose! I don't "punish" them, I mean they aren't dogs lol. If I get bitten hard I'll make a loud squeeking noise and they usually get it. But yeah you shouldn't ever hit your rats, it's so frustrating that people would even think to do that???


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## Sheldon (Nov 1, 2013)

I've never bopped mine but I have pinned them by the head/neck for 3-5 seconds as it's what they would do to each other. Also try timeout in a small travel cage so he's bored. Only leave him in for 2-3 minutes though.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

Bronte18 said:


> You should never hit your rat, even a tap on the nose! I don't "punish" them, I mean they aren't dogs lol. If I get bitten hard I'll make a loud squeeking noise and they usually get it. But yeah you shouldn't ever hit your rats, it's so frustrating that people would even think to do that???


It's not as if I'm smacking the rat with all my might. I'm not abusing them, it's not even slightly painful. My rats don't bite, they constantly do things they shouldn't. You don't let your dog or cat or child do whatever they want if it's a bad thing, so why would you let your rat? I'm not looking to "punish" in the sense of violence, I'm looking to correct bad behavior effectively. I would never do anything to my rats to hurt them either. 


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

You could try and distract rather than punish. Use a sharp tone, clap, or snap and shoo them away from whatever they are doing. Usually that sharp interjection is enough for them to forget about what they were doing and associate the action with an unpleasant noise.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I get on to them every time they do something bad, I yell NO and stuff like that and sure they stop, but it doesn't work long term and they go right back to it. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

A bop or swat usually works, but not to punish, rather to discourage a particular activity. It has to be immediate and noticeable, psychology text books use the term severem but I don't think it should ever be severe.. 

You can't punish a rat for doing something because the rat might not understand why you are punishing it. But by immediately discouraging a particular activity it understands you are communicating your disapproval of something it is doing while it is still doing it. I have an $80.00 50 foot extension chord that feeds the AC in my office and when I saw Amelia take a chop out of the insulation, I backhanded her with all the love I could muster at the moment and shouted sufficient profanities at her so that she never nibbled that cable again. 

Now eventually your rats realize you are only bluffing. Fuzzy Rat eventually realized that I would never hurt her. So one day she decided to tunnel into the closet through the carpet.... I shouted at her, she ignored me, I threw stuff at her (intentional near misses) she ignored me, I got up and bopped her on top of her head she ignored me for at least a dozen bops and just kept munching carpet... Finally she looked up at me with an annoyed expression and weebled off. The next morning I found a hole through the carpet to the hardwood floor which discouraged any further digging... 

Once your rats realize you are really not going to hurt them, bops and swats become less effective.... as does shouting so don't overuse these tactics. Fuzzy Rat got so arrogant as to cut my wires and stomp on my keyboard when she wanted attention, she knew she was going to get yelled at, but after that she was going to get hugged and snuggled and I suppose it was worth it for her. So shouting, and bopping can even backfire once your rat gets that you aren't going to really hurt her or him.

If you haven't gathered it from my comment so far, you aren't punishing your rat, nor are you trying to hurt it, you are just communicating your disapproval of something it is doing when you catch it in the act. This method can be very effective, if not overused, but it's no excuse for animal abuse. If you notice that I shouted and bopped Fuzzy Rat a dozen times before she stopped chewing the carpet, you should note I wasn't actually hurting her, more trying to be as annoying as possible. I'm 6'2" and over 200 lbs I know how easy it can be for me to hurt a rat and I'm always careful, as I said, "discourage" with love in your heart, no matter how angry you are at the time. Some folks pin, which can also work if you can pin immediately so the rats knows why you are doing it... Rats don't usually understand time outs.

Best luck


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## Enchilada (May 29, 2014)

You do realize they're rats right? Have you tried doing this to a cat before? It comes back with the same results, nothing. If they're nibbling on something they shouldn't be, I suggest rat proofing the room they run around in. If its fighting thats occurring, they will continue without any regard when you look away. They're animals, they aren't trained humans that know right from wrong. Simply put, some species just don't care about punishments and it wont work on them.


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

I think I've been lucky with my current girls. Buttercup really wanted to interfere with my keyboard since it was obviously distracting me from the little queen. I just pushed her off a few times and told her " I see what you are doing." Now as soon as I say that she takes her fingers off, on the rare occasions she tests that out. It's worked on everything so far. A few pushes from anything I dont want them on and they seem to give up the idea.

Now if I ignore her, Buttercup grabs my hand and pulls it to her so she can roll over to encourage tummy tickles.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

It took me quite a while to teach my little trouble maker, Styles, that no means NO. I taught him to understand signs of anger in me, basically. If he got nippy with me, he was bopped on the nose or pinned, always gently. A bop on the nose is most certainly not abuse, and yes, they are rats, but rats do not work quite like other rodents and a rats mind works more like a dogs, as far as I can tell (of course even my gerbils learned what no meant). This also means encouraging good behavior, so if Styles is being especially unresponsive to me calling him over or telling him no, and he finally does listen, even if he drags his feet about it, I reward him with snuggles and a small tidbit. It's made both the boys much more willing to listen. I really reserve punishment for particularly bad behaviors, such as nipping. If they chew on something I don't punish them, as it is part of their instincts to chew, I simply scoop them up and take them away from the problem. 

Rats, once they get to know someone, seem to be very good at determining tone of voice. They usually ignore me if it is not serious, like that time Styles got into my drawers and was enjoying burrowing in my clothing, I was laughing at the same time as I was trying to tell him no, and he seemed only to laugh along with me. Interestingly enough they ignore my mom and sister telling them no, and only listen to me. It may have something to do with me having been the only one to teach them to respect me (through not allowing bad behavior such as nipping), as I won't allow other people to ever punish them as I won't allow someone to accidentally hurt them or put themselves in a situation where the boys feel threatened and would hurt them. 

Besides booping and (gentle!) pinning, I've also heard a squirt bottle works, but I tried it once and will not do it again because it frightened my boys. I will never do anything to frighten them or hurt them, mostly the boops and pinning is to surprise them or get their attention- clapping my hands and then saying no also works, or whistling...seems weird sounds just distract them from things. If they won't come over then for some reason laying down and moaning; "I'm dying, guys! Dying! Save me!" works, haha. 

Just a few things I've noticed/learned so far


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Enchilada:

Actually, I do realize they are rats:

Our brightest rat, Fuzzy Rat walked at heel like very best trained dogs I've owned and one was a Morristown seeing eye dog school drop out...









And that rat liked to walk right up to meet and greet people and was quite capable of functioning outdoors without supervision.. (note the photos were taken after she jumped into the lake on her own and went swimming with the kids..)















And that rat liked to climb tall trees and sway in the breeze and came down on command...










And this is Max one of our current rats passing her true shoulder rat final exam... at a town fireworks show










And doing a meet and greet afterwards:










And the little white dot next to the black trash can is Fuzzy Rat hiking back to the car on her own, something Max can even do now... She could find the car from over 1/4 mile and the house form about half a mile away...










And by the way, Max and her new friend Cloud live free range in our house like any of my dogs did... the result of patience and training to be competent.

Yes I realize I'm talking about rats, the brilliant little furry metacognative animals in the photos that can learn just about anything you have the patience to teach them. 

In fact the rather remarkable black and white rat in the beach photos was quite able to understand many human commands and a great deal of our body language and communicate a broad array of her thoughts, desires and intentions and taught us humans immersion and immersion theory... Honestly, she was actually smarter than some dogs I've owned...

So, I'm not sure I understand your point... I know you aren't trying to disrespect my rats on purpose... But Fuzzy Rat was the only animal that was ever allowed into our vets office without a leash or cage, she sat on a chair of her own next to me in the waiting room. My rats are smart, housebroken and well trained, they are well behaved and are welcome guests where ever I take them. 

I honestly agree that it is wrong to punish a rat, because rats can't understand what we usually refer to as punishment, but strongly disagree about rats learning right from wrong. Some rats are smarter than others, but I really haven't met a rat that can't learn... if you can learn to communicate with it in a way that it can understand. Rats can understand a strong "NO" and a little bop, sometimes they don't always listen to you but they know exactly what you mean.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I actually almost forgot to add that Fuzzy Rat and Max are highly skilled and well trained true shoulder rats. Taking untrained rats outdoors, especially if you aren't experienced at outdoor rat handling is a _very_ bad idea. And it's a really good way to get your rats lost or killed. My point was that rats are very intelligent and trainable, not that average rats are safe to take outdoors. I'd like everyone to know how intelligent and competent rats can be, so I post pics to make my point, not to induce new rat owners to get their rats killed... 

Enjoy the pics, and if you are seriously interested in training a shoulder rat you can read my thread on the subject, but otherwise... don't try this at home!


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

When my guys misbehaved...very rare event thank goodness, all I had to do was redirect. But I feel a tiny bop or pinning would be fine too...nothing to hurt the rat just to let him know that what he/she was doing was not acceptable.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I've found that a warning sound, I do ssskt ssskt, usually is enough to get them to stop but if they're being stubborn a squirt bottle will do the trick. If they're in arms reach they get bopped or flipped and pinned depending on what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing is bad or against the rules and like small children they think they can get away with it! A bop or a swat should never be hard. If should never hurt, just deter them from continuing what they're doing.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It's worth noting that a bop here is nothing. In fact, unless I'm truly upset a bop usually gets me a brief pause, a quick groom, then they resume. Swats get me swarmed. Punishing rats, in general, doesn't seem to work well except as a temporarily determent from the current action. But when something catastrophic is happening, that momentary pause can save a life.

Example, Persephone decided to crawl into my wall heater last month. Wasn't on, thank god, but she got well and truly stuck. As I'm trying to find out how to open the heater or to pull her out as well as to prevent her continued struggle because she was wedging herself further and further down until all I could see was a foot and tail....everyone came over to check. Elias, being a rather butt, decided this was the perfect time to pull her tail and bite her rump. He wasn't helping, he was just being a dominant male seeking to explore this strange, squeaky rat rump. I booped him, found the latch, got the front of the heater off, and out came Persephone uninjured but unamused.

Another example, this time for the "swat". This means I am bowling my rat end over end off of something. When does this come in handy? When your post-surgery rat is on the mends and a hyper girl wants to explore her stitches, injuring Iris badly. Swat away the rat, pluck Iris out of danger, and the rat is suddenly on my shoulder.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Confused at all of the "they're rats" comments.

It appears as though most owners don't realize that rats are more dog-like (and human-like) than any other common pet. They are highly intelligent and must be treated as such when training.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Confused at all of the "they're rats" comments.It appears as though most owners don't realize that rats are more dog-like (and human-like) than any other common pet. They are highly intelligent and must be treated as such when training.


^^ Agreed! Rats are smarter than a lot of dogs. Look at some of the "rat tricks" videos on youtube...can your dog do that?!?


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I agree, I'm really confused by these people implying they're just rats. My cat and dog know when they're being bad, they've learned the warning signs that mom is upset and they'd better stop what they're doing right now. We all know that rats are extremely intelligent creatures, so there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to be taught as well. You wouldn't just let an animal or a person do whatever they wanted and get away with it, then you end up with a poorly behaved animal who thinks they control everything. 
I do always reprimand them in the act right away, and they do stop but of course give it a few minutes and they're back at it again. I tried time out and yeah I don't think they understood and they obviously didn't care. I guess I'll try clapping or something maybe to scare them off so they won't do it anymore. 


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## Bronte18 (Jun 2, 2014)

I didn't once say you abused the rats, I'm just stating that IN MY OPINION, its wrong, regardless of a light tap or not... but maybe I'm too easy on my guys. One of them does bite, but again all of mines are rescues and some of them have came from horrific conditions and I guess I just feel sorry for them, so they get away with a lot, one of them still bites, but I don't think that will ever change, its if something comes at him too quickly or he gets a fright and he most of the time does draw blood. I should maybe try a new form of discipline but I don't think its in my heart to ever bop them on the head or anything, id feel terrible afterwards.


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I agree as well. I think my rats are far smarter than a couple of cats I've owned. And definitely smarter than some of my friend's dogs. 

My boyfriend and I have spent the last several days trying to train Gadget, and even though it's slow, it seems to be working rather well. It only took her two days to figure out that fingers are off limits for biting, and now I don't worry about that as much. She did substitute toes though, so now we're working on bopping her nose when she goes after toes. It really does feel like she's just testing limits. She figured out no fingers, and now wants to see if there is anything else she's allowed to bite. She's definitely not stupid, she's learning how to interact with humans after her last home taught her bad habits. We're also trying to teach Penny to not chew clothing and Olivia to not chew jewelry. (Penny is a much better student so far than Olivia). 

And I never hit them. I tap them lighter than I am tapping the keys right now to type this. It's just a motion along with a strong NO that teaches her that we don't approve of what she's doing. Rat Daddy made a good point to me in the immersion forum when he said that there are some things rats need to learn that are a matter of life and death for the rat. If we don't discourage the behavior now, then there could be dire consequences later. Of course I feel bad immediately after bopping the rats, cause all I want to do is love on them all the time, but I also want them to be safe and live long healthy lives, preferably with my fingers and toes intact.


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## Jessiferatu (Apr 30, 2014)

I never get tired of reading what Rat Daddy has to say. Love the pictures too.

"Discipline" for my ratties is something that seemed to evolve over time. I'm not trying to punish them, just let them know that what they are doing isn't okay. Most of my rats are well behaved, but Jax and May are my mischief makers. They are the most adventurous and they are both expert climbers and jumpers. They are not afraid of much.

I use clapping mostly, which gets their attention and makes them stop whatever they are doing because they are startled. I don't overdo it so that it's still effective in serious situations. Otherwise, I either give a stern "no" or just say their names in a stern tone. They absolutely understand my change in tone. It doesn't always deter them, but I know they get it because they always pause, at least for a few seconds. Jax does NOT like to be told what to do and will protest with squeaks if I try to move or distract him from what he's intent on doing, but I can hold him up and look him right in the eyes and say "no" and he really does understand. That's the only thing that seems to get him to go "OKAY I WON'T DO THAT." LOL. May is still young but she is beginning to understand this method as well.

Distraction (and rat proofing) is IMO the best way to deal with a stubborn rattie.


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## Marie5656 (Jun 1, 2014)

I do not punish, as much as be a referee of sorts. Sometimes Roxy gets a little too rough with the smaller Daisy (they are same age sisters, Daisy just more petite). If I feel she is being too rough, I might just gently put my open hand between them for a second. That seems to do the job.


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## rileys-mom (May 26, 2014)

I don't think I would even consider 'punishing' a rat. They're very smart, but normally what they would do to make us punish them is typical rat behavior and they would have no idea that it's wrong. For example, gnawing. That's a normal rat behavior. If a rat gnaws something valuable it's the owner's fault for not keeping an eye on their pet. 

Biting would be the only thing I might try to make them realize is wrong, but other than that it's my responsibility to monitor them and make sure that whatever it is they are doing is safe and wouldn't require punishment.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

When I catch them doing something bad I immediately grab them and speak sternly to them but you can just tell they don't care and are just waiting to be put down so they can go do something else bad 


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## Cloud (Jan 16, 2011)

I've not really had to punish my rats all that often. Cases I remember was Lightning used to bite when I first got her, that was just a case of getting her to realise I wasn't a threat and making loud squeaks when she did it did the trick. When it came to wire chewing, a loud 'no!' and a clap deterred them from doing that again as they associated it with something loud and scary. Sometimes when Zack used to bully Cloud and stop hom from eating food when he was ill, I pinned Zack to let him know that I was alpha and that I will allow Cloud to eat. All those in the past worked and are effective at teaching the rat how to behave in your pack. Each rat will be different and each situation is different, so to be fair, there's a lot of different methods depending  as long as you remember that rats are pack animals and you understand pack behaviour and you can get your rats to recognise you as alpha from early on, it's all relatively easy


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## ratmode (May 15, 2014)

OK, so I think that in order to "punish" (that is, apply negative reinforcement) to a rat, you have to think like a rat.

What does a rat do when another rat does something he doesn't like? He jumps up and squeaks. Now it's pretty tough to squeak like a rat but I've found that a squeaky "kissy noise" works well to dissuade my guys from doing something like nipping me too hard. However, if they continually get into something they shouldn't, I have to use "force". Now when I say "force" I really just mean sudden movement - for example, if one of my rats keeps trying to crawl behind the radiator when it's coming on, I'll push him away extremely quickly, or flip him over onto his back very quickly. This does not hurt the rat and my guys get the message very quickly when I do this. They can also tell the difference between serious business (I flipped you because you were about to get hurt) and playing (I knocked you off the edge of that basket because I want to wrestle). When I "play shove" my rat, he gets excited, jumps around, comes over and licks me, runs away, runs back, licks me, etc. until I follow him around and play with him. When I "danger shove" my rats, they stop what they're doing and go do something else.

I never "bop" my rats, only because my rats don't bop each other so I don't think it would be a useful way to communicate with them. If the methods I use now stop working, I will teach them what a tiny tap on the head means, but for now they understand loud noise and sudden movement.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

Aeyna said:


> I agree as well. I think my rats are far smarter than a couple of cats I've owned. And definitely smarter than some of my friend's dogs. My boyfriend and I have spent the last several days trying to train Gadget, and even though it's slow, it seems to be working rather well. It only took her two days to figure out that fingers are off limits for biting, and now I don't worry about that as much. She did substitute toes though, so now we're working on bopping her nose when she goes after toes. It really does feel like she's just testing limits. She figured out no fingers, and now wants to see if there is anything else she's allowed to bite. She's definitely not stupid, she's learning how to interact with humans after her last home taught her bad habits. We're also trying to teach Penny to not chew clothing and Olivia to not chew jewelry. (Penny is a much better student so far than Olivia). And I never hit them. I tap them lighter than I am tapping the keys right now to type this. It's just a motion along with a strong NO that teaches her that we don't approve of what she's doing. Rat Daddy made a good point to me in the immersion forum when he said that there are some things rats need to learn that are a matter of life and death for the rat. If we don't discourage the behavior now, then there could be dire consequences later. Of course I feel bad immediately after bopping the rats, cause all I want to do is love on them all the time, but I also want them to be safe and live long healthy lives, preferably with my fingers and toes intact.


I'm sorry but I laughed so hard when you said she knows fingers were off limits but now was going after your toes! ;0)


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

rileys-mom said:


> I don't think I would even consider 'punishing' a rat. They're very smart, but normally what they would do to make us punish them is typical rat behavior and they would have no idea that it's wrong. For example, gnawing. That's a normal rat behavior. If a rat gnaws something valuable it's the owner's fault for not keeping an eye on their pet.
> 
> Biting would be the only thing I might try to make them realize is wrong, but other than that it's my responsibility to monitor them and make sure that whatever it is they are doing is safe and wouldn't require punishment.


I agree that punishment shouldn't cross lines that can be established from natural behavior. However, on the flip side of negative reinforcement is positive reinforcement and let's not forget it's entirely possible to train rats - as you said, they're smart. 

So, while chewing my clothes and digging up carpet is normal, I can and am not cruel to train my rats to, say, not gnaw on furniture. Why? Well, how the **** am I supposed to have a room with no furniture. So I offer determents and distractions and other chewing things but when they go for the furniture it's a multistage lesson. 

Maybe you just have well behaved rats. Step one becomes the no, stern voice. Step two, the puttin the rat else where. Step three loud exasperated noise. Step four the boop and a knock it off. Step four repeats about two weeks and ta da I get to have a nightstand. 

The boop is very light. 


If I wear to mimick natural behaviors, keep in mind I'd be pinning them until they squeaked or biting (I guess pinching would be human equivalent) their rump. See, me squeaking at them ony works if they're the boss. They're not, or else I wouldn't be telling them what not to do. 


Gosh. I never saw "punish dogs like their alphas would" debates. 


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

My rats used to be pretty well behaved, but lately it's like all of them have gotten into this stubborn attitude where they are determined to do whatever they want. My girl has started gnawing on my door, and obviously I can't just remove the door. They get away with a lot, and they have an entire bedroom to free range in but of course they're obsessed with trying to get behind the crevices that are off limits. I'm not sure what's going on with them, everyone is really wound up lately. 


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I think I will try pinning them like they do to eachother, although when I pick up Pepe to reprimand him he turns into a rag doll so I'm not sure he would respond. 


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

One other thing, what if my rats bounce back quickly after experiencing something unpleasant? I've accidentally stepped on tails, swatted, caused to fall, and dropped things that made loud scary noises and none of them are affected for very long. They come running back to me ready to play again and act like nothing happened. How will they understand that no means no and that I'm serious? 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

ksaxton said:


> I think I will try pinning them like they do to eachother, although when I pick up Pepe to reprimand him he turns into a rag doll so I'm not sure he would respond.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Don't do it precisely like they do unless it's an emergency. I generally hold them, put their back against one palm and secure them with another. I never hold for more than say fifteen seconds. I let go if they don't struggle. I give a quick skritch to the belly and put then back down. 

They'll likely struggle so again do it safe do it gentle and do it rarely. 

In emergencies I have restrained rats against the floor using a full palm to hold them. Apply minimal if any pressure and beware those back claws. 

People have squeezed rats hard enough to damage and thus kill their rats so again do it safe or not at all. This is coming from someone who does use it. 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh and as a general note, all rats should be comfortable being held like that for medical checks and vet appts. 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

ksaxton said:


> One other thing, what if my rats bounce back quickly after experiencing something unpleasant? I've accidentally stepped on tails, swatted, caused to fall, and dropped things that made loud scary noises and none of them are affected for very long. They come running back to me ready to play again and act like nothing happened. How will they understand that no means no and that I'm serious?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Repetition, tone, and general discouragement. You have to be consistent. Not let sometimes slide because dawwww they're so cute. 


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## ratbasket (Apr 26, 2014)

So when you pin a rat you flip them over onto their back and hold them there gently until they stop struggling?


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