# my fighting girls :(



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Hi everyone 

My two girls Kalli and Sasha are about 11 months old. I got them at eight weeks old and from the same cage at the pet store. They live in the large Super Pet cage for exotics (has three levels) with tons of hammocks and bed boxes toys, etc... I feed them Harlan 2014, Oxbow Regal rat, and veggies and fruit every night. Their cage in in a bathroom they can run around in, and the door to their cage gets left open for most of the day (but they sleep all day) and until about 10 pm. My daughters and I also play with them around the house every day. We close the cage at night because during the day the bathroom window is open, but at night it's cold and drafty, so we close the window and leave the bathroom door open for ventilation.

I've been suspicious that Kalli may be bullying Sasha for a while now. Sasha has cuts on her lower back and tail, has a new bend/kink in her tail, and my two daughters have heard them banging around and squeaking in the night. Someone loaned me a camera that can take videos in the dark, and I've set it up on seven different nights. What I've seen has been very sad. 

Once the lights go out they go about their business for a bit, but soon Kalli starts to chase Sasha around the cage. They will get into a boxing position and have "standoffs" that last for over five minutes!!! The standoff will usually end with Kalli getting bored and leaving Sasha smashed in a corner. But if Sasha makes a run for it, Kalli will chase and bite her. I recorded a couple really ugly tumbling, kicking, banging, biting fights where both girls fell two levels during the fight, only to continue the fight on the floor of the cage! 

It breaks my heart to see them acting like this! I understand that there has to be a dominant rat. I'm unclear on the "no blood no foul" rule. I've never seen blood in the cage, but Sasha has scabs and bite marks all over her back. I wonder if bite marks count as a "foul."

I had a theory that they were fighting over the wheel. They both LOVE the wheel, so I got them another identical wheel, so they could both run. Of course, they only want the old wheel (I washed the old wheel). I had a theory that they felt like they didn't have enough food, so I've been giving them bigger dinners and more lab blocks. I even got one of those kabob sticks to anchor food to the wall so it can't be stashed! 

I set up the camera again last night now that they have tons of food and two wheels, right next to each other, and captured the worst fight yet. Sasha has injuries on her tail today and several new marks on her back (...no blood, though...how would there ever be blood? They would groom it off.)

The crazy thing is that they often sleep together (they were together this morning) and have NEVER shown any aggression toward each other when out of the cage or being handled together. It just happens at night when the lights are out. It's like they're different rats at night. Sasha doesn't act super traumatized in the video after the fights are over. She just avoids Kalli.

Thanks so much for reading all that! I'd love to hear ANY ideas anyone has. I can't bear to separate them. I really want to help them work this out!

These are ideas I'm considering:

Taking away BOTH wheels, since they can't share 
Washing the whole cage to remove scents
um....that's about all I've got left!

Thanks!
Sorry it's such a long post!!


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Do you think a rat would rather live alone, or deal with a bully who leaves cuts on her and bosses her around? 

Would anyone consider separating these two girls who have been together their whole life and who still sleep together (they don't sleep together all the time)? Sasha has many cuts on her back... I wish I could ask her what she wants to do about the whole thing. Who knows...she might say she's fine with it! Rats think so differently than people.

Anyone? 
I'm not sure what to do.
Thanks


----------



## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

The thing with "no blood, no foul" is it's not a great rule. Say you had someone picking on you and bugging you, and shoving you all the time. You don't have to be brought to bleeding before you start to intensly dislike them, right? And that person would get used to picking on you and probably start to dislike you in their own way too. I think the more they fight, the more they will keep fighting and starting to dislike each other. It's too bad that they suddenly are not getting along and having such huge brawls!

I think if they were seperated, they would still be miserable but in a differet type of miserable. They would be really lonely and probably get depressed if they were forced to live alone.

Have you considered actually getting MORE rats? Maybe try getting one more, or two more sisters from a store or rescue, prefferably ones that are already a few months old and no longer babies (adult females will attack to kill babies usually). It might help Sasha to have other rats to relate to and be friends with and feel safer, and it might give Kalli other punching bags so Sasha doesn't take the brunt of it constantly. She may even stop being a bully to Sasha and any other rat if she has other rats to interact with so she's not forced to focus on the only other rat she can see.

I'm not sure if this is the best suggestion, but it might help?

Do you know approximately how long it's been since she started getting bullied?

Immersion training might also be helpful. Maybe Kalli thinks she is THE boss rat of the house (over you and the other humans) so she's being extra bossy. Immersion training may help to rectify that behavior and remind her that she's not in charge and that you (the actual "boss rat") don't approve of her being a bully.


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks so much for your response, Finnebon. I agree with what you say about the no blood no foul rule. I don't know how long the bullying has been going on, but I think Kalli has always been the dominant (I'm not too familiar with immersion. I will read up on that) rat and that for whatever reason she's become more and more forceful with her dominance over time. I'm suspicious that it may have started when they got too big to run in the wheel together. They always used to run together all night long, but at some point they couldn't both fit. I wonder if the wheel became a resource they couldn't share and became the trigger for all their fighting. I'm just guessing, though. At this point, I think it's like what you say...they've gotten used to fighting now. They've moved beyond the wheel and just bully and get bullied in general. A lot of the fights DO originate at the wheel or after Sasha has left from using the wheel (it's like Kalli is pissed that Sasah was using "her" wheel). They both LOVE the wheel. I'm still thinking about taking it away, but I really just think they'd find something else to fight over. They have two identical (to me) wheels now!

I have thought about getting more rats. I didn't know that females would sometimes try to kill babies! Thanks for telling me that! I just worry that the new rat/rats might pick on Sasha too....or get beat up. I will think more about this, though.

I'm not planning on separating them at this point. I know they'd be devastated!

Thanks again for your ideas


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I also advocate the buffer zone more rats can make. However, you'll want to see if it is under control first. 

Try taking everything out of their cAge essentially. Nothing to fight over or do. Observe. Then give back stuff, but I think the wheel should be a free range thing only. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Okay. Thanks! I'll clean out the cage. I think you're right about the wheel being best used outside the cage only. 

Appreciate the advice!


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

What do you think would happen if I separated them at night, since that's when the fighting occurs, by dividing their big cage in half and put them in a neutral cage to sleep/snuggle during the day? They could also have free range time together, since they don't fight then either. 

Could this ever work, or would it be disruptive to their dysfunctional relationship? I wonder if Sasha would like a night of peace or if she'd be freaked out to be isolated.


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

You said they sleep cuddling, I think they'd be sad. 
If your kids were fighting over a toy, what would you do take the toy out and make them apologize. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Yeah. I think they'd be sad, too, if I separated them... I need to take the wheel (now two wheels) out. I just hate to take it out, since it's pretty much ALL they do in there, unless they're eating, sleeping, or fighting. With no wheel, I worry that they'll have nothing to do but fight. 

Random question: Do rats poop and pee more when they're stressed or having territory battles...or for other reasons? 

Sometimes I feel like Kalli and Sasha literally produce three times as much poop and pee, even if they're eating exactly the same amount as usual. They have a litter box and use it really well most of the time...but sometimes (a lot lately), I'll go in there in the morning, and it's like they've pooped EVERYWHERE and doused the WHOLE cage in pee!!! I use blankets to cover the three levels and a towel in the bottom of the cage, so I can get a pretty good idea of how much they pee. It's not like they're spreading it around more...it's like they're making more. Is that possible?

Just wondering....


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

The empty cage is actually a theory of introductions meant to make rats get along. It is usually done in a smaller cage too. It is popular in the uk so most of the information is not as readily available to us members. 

As for poop and pee...peeing more could be territorial, poops could be fear poops. But it might just be a manner of perspective - you probably are scrutinizing them more because your mischief is all upset. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

I bought a smallish, single level cage today to try to help Kalli (bully) and Sasha (beat up) get along. I put two new water bottles, a new litter box, and a couple of new blankets in there to keep them warm. I tried to make it all as neutral as possible. I also put plenty of food all around in the cage. I'm going to video them tonight and see if things go better. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Their different reactions to the new, smaller cage was very interesting to me. Sasha didn't seem to mind. She was curious, but just sniffed around calmly and then started eating and grooming herself. She seemed fairly content, given the circumstances. Kalli, (the bully) on the other hand, grabbed some food and started frantically running around the cage, climbing the bars. She usually takes her food up to an upper level of the cage to eat it (but so does Sasha). Of course, I can only guess at what she was thinking, but I feel like she was looking for all HER stuff! She kept looking and looking and climbing and freaking out. I wonder if Sasha didn't care about the new cage because nothing in the old cage had "belonged" to her anyway. I wonder if Kalli owned everything.

I don't plan to keep them in the small cage forever. What should I do if they don't fight tonight? Should I leave them in the small cage for a few days? Should I still let them free range during the day? I would like to give them their nice big cage back, at some point. But I don't plan to put the wheel back in the big cage  So sad, because they love the wheel so much. But I know they love/need each other more than they love/need the wheel.

Thanks, everyone, for your advice


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Okay...sorry. It's me AGAIN. I just read something that said that a cage that is too small creates aggression between cage mates! Now I'm wondering if I'm doing the right thing to put my girls in a small cage. I've also read, though, that a small, neutral cage with no "stuff" in it can help solve rat aggression issues. Confused.???


----------



## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I'm not sure, but I know that being in a smaller cage means they have to be closer together. The problem with that is, with fighting rats, the victim is pretty much cornered the whole time.
An invade in personal space can trigger aggression in any animal.

I hope someone with more experience in fighting rats answers. I don't know what you should do, but I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It's called carrier introductions, Lalalauren had success with her bully and Isamurat is the one who introduced the method to me. Too small a permanent cage ( and a lack of stuff) is definitely a cause of aggression. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Update: They didn't fight in the smaller cage last night. Kalli didn't bully Sasha. They spent most the night climbing around, trying to get out. But when they weren't trying to escape, they were just hanging out together. I noticed Sasha grooming Kalli in a friendly way. I never saw that before. There was no chasing or boxing, etc... There was one moment where Sasha climbed on top of Kalli (role reversal) and sat there for a a minute, but everything broke up peacefully, without biting and tumbling. Kalli was like a different rat. Her whole energy was different, not defensive and aggressive. Sasha also seemed more relaxed. She kept doing this weird whole body shake...like she was excited/frisky. And she didn't tiptoe around Kalli. 

The new neutral cage is 24" long by 14" wide by 15" high. I don't know how long to keep them in it. They really seem to hate it. Or maybe they're just getting used to it. But they DID chew the bars and try to get out all night.

I let them free range this morning. They looked so bored in their cage. I don't know if that was the wrong move. After they got tired, Kalli ended up sleeping on top of the cage and Sasha ended up sleeping in the cage. I feel like this could lead to the same "mine vs yours" territorial issues that started the whole aggression problem. I also think that Kalli just needs her space. I put Kalli back in the cage and closed it up. Now they're snuggling together.

I really don't know where to go from here. 

I've totally cleaned/sanitized their original cage and am thinking about putting all three levels next to each other, forming a ceiling to block off the top half so they just have the bottom area for awhile (still no toys, beds, etc???). I don't know if having a cage with different levels counts as an "empty cage," since they could claim the levels and defend them. 

Thanks for reading my long story!
Thanks for any ideas!


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think giving them there big cage, but half of it, would be the next step after the first peaceful night. If there is a fight, backtrack. No fight, keep it at half and then whole. Then add in some stuff. Always go back a step if anything is wrong.

I finally am on a computer, so here's alink: http://www.sundroprats.co.uk/otherStuff/introductions.php


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> I think giving them there big cage, but half of it, would be the next step after the first peaceful night. If there is a fight, backtrack. No fight, keep it at half and then whole. Then add in some stuff. Always go back a step if anything is wrong.
> 
> I finally am on a computer, so here's alink: http://www.sundroprats.co.uk/otherStuff/introductions.php


Thanks so much! That's great information!


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

I still have them in the small cage. They're getting along well in there, so I've decided to keep them there until all of Sasha's bite wounds have healed. That way I can tell if trouble starts up again if I notice any new bites. I can't keep videoing them every night (sigh). Also, I feel like they're still working through some issues and could use more time in the small cage. It is so encouraging to see them getting along and having a peaceful relationship. Sasha is becoming more relaxed in general...probably because she's not getting beat up.

Thank you all for your advice! I hope others will read this thread (I know I've read tons of old threads, looking for ideas) and be encouraged that even rats who have injured each other can live together peacefully. 

I think that Kalli and Sasha started out in such a big cage, when I brought the home at eight weeks, that they never really bonded that well. I doubt they were sisters. Maybe as they got older, they started to become more territorial and their weak bond led to fights. I don't know what happened to start the fighting or if they are done fighting for good, but I do know that I am going to do everything I can to keep them together. Sometimes it sounds easier to just separate fighting rats, but I really think that they NEED each other more than they need a big cage and tons of toys to fight over. 

Thanks again!! Happy New Year!


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

UPDATE:

Hi everyone,

Things aren't going so well between Kalli (bully) and Sasha (bullied). I've SLOWLY transitioned the girls back into their big cage (minus wheel), and Kalli has started hurting Sasha again. Sasha has big cuts on her back and sides. It's like if Sasha ever leaves Kalli's sight, then when they meet up in the cage again, it's the first time Kalli has ever seen her. She chases her around, pins her, and feels the need to establish (AGAIN) her dominance. Weird. I think that's why the tiny cage worked, because they were always right next to each other.

I don't know what to do. I feel like they might get along in the tiny cage long term but that it isn't fair to them to keep them in such a small cage with hardly any accessories. 

I'm thinking about separating them, which seems wrong since they do still sleep together...but not all the time. 

The aggression from Kalli we've caught on video is serious. She's not playing.

What would you guys do at this point?
Has anyone ever had to separate two females because of fighting like this?
Any thoughts would be so appreciated.
I've put so much energy into trying to help them make it work, and now I'm really discouraged and confused

Thanks!


----------



## TexasRatties (Jun 2, 2013)

I think you should consider a few options one being getting two more rats that they can be with and maybe it will diverse the attention equally. Another option is to maybe get Kalli fixed. Get a new bigger cage that they have never seen before so new surroundings and they can have their own space. Option number four is to get each of your currents rats a new buddy and divide cages that would be last resort I think tho.


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Fixing her should help. Expensive. 

More rats might limit the problem especially an old alpha. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sammy143 (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks for the ideas. I will try to figure out what I want to do. I have a great exotics vet who could fix her. I just worry that the operation would be really hard on her  

I appreciate the support!!!


----------



## Ratty-newie (Oct 22, 2013)

PLease keep us updated! I'm going through something very similar with my two boys right now so I know the stress!


----------

