# Keeping wild Rats/Mice.



## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I wish to keep a non-domestic Rat or Mouse, a wild caught one to
be exact.

I can humanely catch some mice, so wanted to trial them first.
What i would like to know is how successful people have been
with keeping either wild rats or mice.

And what precautions to take, like treating for worms or other
parasites these wild sons-a-guns might be packing - errr


So thoughts?





Rejoicing in the wild rodents

-Geebus.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

My thoughts: Don't do it. Wild animals should NOT be taken out of their habitat. Why can't you just get an agouti pet rat or mouse?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Its not in its habitat - its in a shed - in a country it isn't native to -


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

KayRatz said:


> Why can't you just get an agouti pet rat or mouse?


I want the "original" type, not the man made designer type -


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

geebus said:


> Its not in its habitat - its in a shed - in a country it isn't native to -


Which is now its habitat, as it made its home there and has been doing so for many many many years. Not to mention certain types of mice are native to America. Rodents have always made human structures their habitats.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Im not in America - im living in Australia, the great southern land
you might of heard it -  - its great.

The shed isn't its habitat, its a exotic evasive pest species... :? 
Just like a termites habitat shouldn't be your home- :lol:


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

Okay I was asked to speak on this.

So I shall. For give my spelling this is windows 98 I type faster then this thing.

If the rat is an invasive species, for sure facing death by exsterminator, or to young; go for it. But you need to think about rabies, yes that still is a factor. Other diseases that the rat may carry. You KNOW your going to get bit and are you prepared. This rat is 't going to be happy what you have done.

HOWEVER on the more apperant side. If the rat is living happily in the wild. No known threats besides natural preditors. Dependent, not invasive, why would you do it? There is no need.

How would you like being pulled from your home. If you really want to befriend a wild rat start feeding it by it's home. People feed birds.

That is what I have to say about it. There's reasons for it, and there's reasons not to do it. Plain and simple.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

RoRo said:


> But you need to think about rabies, yes that still is a factor. Other diseases that the rat may carry. You KNOW your going to get bit and are you prepared. This rat is 't going to be happy what you have done..


Rabies, isn't a concern in my country its non-existent like a lot of other
nasty viruses and diseases etc, because of our quarantine system.




RoRo said:


> ..............why would you do it? There is no need.
> 
> How would you like being pulled from your home. If you really want to befriend a wild rat start feeding it by it's home. People feed birds.
> 
> That is what I have to say about it. There's reasons for it, and there's reasons not to do it. Plain and simple.


The need is my own selfish desire to own it as a pet - same as any other.

Any i don't decide to keep, will be destroyed - with out considerate for 
supposed humane methods - they're very destructive animals.



Im really very interested in parasite issues - 8)


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

RoRo said:


> Okay I was asked to speak on this..



 who may i ask sent you - *shoots messenger*


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*sigh*

If you are going to capture one, then you might as well capture 2 so it can be "happier" and you can watch them interact. 

My half-wilds (unbeknownst to me when I took in the litter) are almost unhandleable even though they were around humans from the beginning. Taking a grown wild rat in will be insane if you are expecting some type of Pet.


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

geebus said:


> The need is my own selfish desire to own it as a pet - same as any other.


Thats just wrong. The only reason I have my animals is because they were abandoned. I would never take anything out of the wild, it's where its meant to be.


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

I've read in this thread a couple of things in this thread provided by geebus that maybe answer some of geebus's own questions & concerns.



> --Its not in its habitat - its in a shed - *in a country it isn't native to* -
> --*Rabies, isn't a concern* in my country its non-existent like a lot of other
> nasty viruses and diseases etc, *because of our quarantine system*.
> --The shed isn't its habitat, *its a exotic evasive pest species*...
> ...


If the destructive little vermin isn't worth humane extermination what type of captured environment would you provide it? Would it be humane living conditions? Kind of a contradiction of philosophy there geebus.

Also---
Since this is a non-indigenous & "invasive" species (by your own description, but "evasive" is how they got there since they are difficult to catch, hehe) then it is obvious this strain of wild rats did not go through any quarantining system established by your country's strict importation guidelines.... right?

So these rats may be just as prone to carry rabies & any other viruses &/or parasitic nasties that are commonly found in the region they came from--where ever that may be from. Since there is no way to know where these little buggers came from originally you are S.O.L. about knowing what they may or may not carry--thus nullifying any research you may do in regards to parasitic nasties. 

This fact that they are a non-indigenous, invasive species this cancels out any confidence you may have of the rat being as healthy & free of those yuckies that the rats (other imported species) that are regulated by your countries strict standards. The animals that are free of rabies may be less likely to contract this once entering the country but these invasive ones can sure bring it with them thus meaning Australia may not be completely void of these things they attempt to eradicate by these strict procedures. Quite possibly a perspective you have not considered.

The curiosity you have for this animal might be best served if explored with an hand's off approach.


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## kimby37 (May 6, 2008)

Great point Julia!


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

To my mind there's no reason to capture a wild creature, invasive species or not, and keep it as a pet. That's just cruel.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

If you are considering it, reconsider. From first hand experience it takes a LOT of work to tame them (which you have already said previously that you won't do .. you will only watch them in their cage) and to even consider bringing an animal who is used to living a wild life just for the reason of a pet .. dude, it's your fingers, not mine.

You've said before that pets are unnatural .. so why bring an animal from it's natural habitat in to a completely unnatural one? It's cruel and un-needed, especially as there are rats out there being bred day in day out to be bought home as a PET.

Consider the housing for it as well ... these would be wild creatures and wild rats are well known for having large territories. Wild rats will travel up to 500m from their burrows, warrens or whatever to find food, check their territory etc. How would you possibly create something even to a miniscule extent, to keep them from going completely neurotic in a cage? And they will, my wild one cannot be kept in small cages, she needs room to explore. She also cannot be housed alone .. it sends her completely barmey. To be honest, I couldn't even imagine her being happy with only one or two friends .. these are animals that live in colonies of up to hundreds of animals.

I think you should leave this idea where it is now - a desire. If you want 'wild' animals, contact rescues, wildlife rescues and local vets who are probably the ones most likely to receive these wild ones in, injured or what-not. Then you can home or rehabilitate as you deem necessary.

Edit: I just realised that I used rats as my example but from my research the social structure of mice is relatively similar to those of rats. Regardless - bad idea man


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## lovinmyworm (Feb 18, 2008)

Own selfish reasons... I hope some giant (pretending they exist right now)comes and plucks you out of your home and locks you in a cage because they want to keep you as a pet. If it's a native species or not doesn't matter much at all. They are still born wild, are wild, and should remain that way! Keeping one because YOU want to is selfish plain and simple. How do you plan on taming this animal? Feeding this animal? Meeting it's basic needs when you are selfish? Selfish people make poor pet owners! These are the people who after awhile get bored, realize they couldn't handle the animal and give up, and this is why there are animal rescues! 

Wild rats can NEVER be tamed well, they get bored and depressed quickly, and need tons of friends to keep them happy! Do you plan on having a huge room dedicated to this rat with 40 or so friends for him or her and constantly re-decorate, ect. In my experience wild rats dont like being fed from food dishes, they don't like being caged, they don't appreciate hammocks or other ratty things. They want to be left alone (remember you will always be the preditor in their eyes) and to hunt for their own food, and keep their large territory with their hundreds of friends, and to be WILD.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

Roro's advice to feed a wild rat is asking for trouble IMHO. If you feed one rat, soon you will be feeding and/or creating a colony and before you know it, you'll be on the local news.

To geebus, when you first started posting it sounded like you weren't even ready for a pet mouse or pet rat and now you think you'll be ready for a wild rat? I work at a wild life rehab center and have seen wild animals in captivity up close. The only calm ones that we are able to handle are the ones who are very sick or on the brink of death. The ones who are recovering and close to release back in the wild are either about to rip you apart or deathly afraid and flighty. Wild rats can do either.
To me it sounded like "I want some attention here", which in this case, worked well.


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## Kathleen (Jul 1, 2008)

> The need is my own selfish desire to own it as a pet - same as any other.


That's really the wrong way to approach the ownership of any animal, not just wild ones. You should own animals for the mutual benefit: first and foremost to provide a suitable environment in which the animal can thrive while you get the pleasure of their company.

As with most people here, I think they're best left alone because their optimum habitat is outdoors since they're not in any way domesticated like the average pet rat/mouse. I don't think they could thrive in a cage under human care.

But that's just my 2Â¢.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Oh my god... you are awful, Geebus. AWFUL. I hope to never meet you in person, and I will now cease to speak to you at all on the forums. Owning animals bred for pets is done because some retarded human out there bred them to the point that they cannot care for themselves in the wild, and now we pet owners who don't breed are basically cleaning up after the breeders, and in the process looking for a companion.


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## cinderella (Sep 10, 2007)

I want to speak from my experience.
...as a teen I set out to catch what we called river rats or wharf rats taht were everywhere in my grandmothers yard. It took a while, as they are very smart at not getting caught.
Finally in a trap I caught a young one, about 12 weeks old I would guess.

I had trouble getting him to eat, he made noises and attacked the wire of the cage constantly. I tried treats through the bars and hed ignore the treats and grab my finger. I gave up and let him go, left his cage with food out in the yard. Within a few days there was a colony living under the deck looking for food by the once cage. A colony that although mean seemed to have no fear so we could no longer sit on the deck and eata sandwich.

Years later, I was working in an office above a restaurant, we had a problem with mice. An attorney caught a small one barely weaned and the office staff refused to let him kill it, since wed previously released some ina nearby field to have them return, that wasnt an option either. So it became a mascot and went home with me.
Im positive she was a weanling, not more than 3 weeks old, possibly 4. I had her a year and I promise you, non handled mice raised as feeders in dark enclosures are tamer than she ever was. The closest I got was being able to put a treat in my hand and she'd run up grab it and take off again


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

though we may not agree with other member's choices or line of questioning, that does not give anyone any right to personally attack that members character or person verbally. we are all mature civil people, we are above the schoolground mentallity. please show it. 

we should also keep in mind that while domesticating wild animals now is not common practice as we have so many already bred domesticated, it was not that long ago when people picked up wild rats on the streets and kept them as pets, same with mice and many other domesticated personal companion animals. while this is not commonly practiced now, this is where our domesticated animals originally came from. for rats, its only been roughly 2 human lifetimes worth of time from wild to our domestics. so geebus's suggestion of domesticating a wild animal is not as out there as some of us personally feel. it is possible to be done. it has been done. we have the companion animals and working animals now to prove it. 

now, whether geebus should pursue this path is the question. personally i do not feel it is a good idea nor is it necessary. i feel this way because i would think it very difficult to domesticate any animal but moreso if you are not personally familar with the species or animal behavior. anyone can cook, but when a blind man first enters the kitchen for the first time, it would be prudent to defer to more knowledgeable people and ask for help. with few exceptions, very few of us have had positive personal experience with wild animals, but wild rats in particular. its like wolves and dogs. they are related. the wolves are the dogs originals. but as i would not keep a wolf i would not keep a wild rat. our domesticated rats are now about equivalent to the foofy little toy poodle. there is a vast difference. 

geebus, ultimately this will be your decision. many people here are discouraging you from pursueing it and for good reason. any wild animal will be difficult to tame. their needs are going to differ from the domestics needs even though they look similar. as you feel unready to tackle husbandry for the domestic, arguably the easier to care for, tackling the husbandry of a wild rat would likely be overwhelming. being able to provide enough space and companship alone would be very difficult. but also take into consdieration of when they get sick. many vets will not handle wild animals, even if they have very similar domestic counterparts. 

if you are gung ho for observing a wild animal or rat colony in particular then do as the documentarians do and observe from a distance in the wild. this will satisfy the need to watch animals behave as they should in the wild without interfering with them. i'm sure there would be many film students that would be very interested in helping you get set up and working with you to find a thriving colony and get cameras in there for observation. it could be quite the interesting and enlightening endevor for the passing common person and rat entusiasts alike. you may even be able to sell it to a tv station in the end. not many people have really looked into how wild rats really work though they have a rough idea of how it should go with family colonies and structural systems. it would be interesting too to find out if the rat world is a female or male dominated. also to see the family interactions and to see how colonies break up when the mischeif becomes to large. we can only get a glimpse of those damatics with our pet rats. i would be fascinated to learn how they care for their sick and young. to see if the old has any special place in the community as well. to see all the tunnels and rooms and how they work things out like the nursery, the ladder and the bathroom. they are supposed to have particular rooms for each but i don't know if anyone has bothered to film a wild colony to find out exactly how this works. 


i will allow this thread to continue. there is a lot of room for discussion. but i would like to remind everyone to keep it civil. no personal attacks on anyone whose opinion you disagree with. please let your words reflect your good manners and the good person that you are.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Hello A1A,

Thanks for your post - your perspective on pre-quarantine and or animals
who went under the quarantine radar to enter my country was i must admit
thought provoking.. and ill add to your comments with the fact animals are
often illegally smuggled into the country which would provide another 
vector for disease to enter unchecked.

Although i think you might of mistaken the meaning of one of my other comments...
I often fail to articulate myself in this forum situation.


A1APassion said:


> If the destructive little vermin isn't worth humane extermination what type of captured environment would you provide it? Would it be humane living conditions? Kind of a contradiction of philosophy there geebus..


Im unable to dictate the method/s that will be used to remove these
rodents (mostly mice) from the shed, it will basically be either baits
or snap shut type traps (lesser of two evils imo- at least its usually faster).

So, i don't at all mean to say they're not worthy of a humane death just
that they will be eradicated - and inline with most pest species how humane
the methods are isn't of much consideration for someone wanting the 
"problem solved".


So that said, the eradication methods aren't in my hands or my desired
approach either (i don't like using baits at all), so it doesn't reflect on my
opinions or consideration for the later housing of the critters -


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Have you made a decision on whether or not to keep wild rats/mice then Geebus?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

*Firstly*, thanks particularly to those who posted information on their 
personal experience - its been very interesting to read so thanks!

A few people have made assumptions and based on these assumptions
they've continued on with their points - which don't really reflect my 
intentions... which is understandable i didn't go into a great deal of detail..

So ill clear a couple up for those interested.

*I have absolutely no intention of taming any wild rodent..

*Its not an option to observe/feed the wild rodents they're
unwanted visitors - facing extermination which is out of
my control..

*At this stage its really only the mice im considering - not so much rats.

*I don't need to interact with a "pet" to gain satisfaction from keeping it..
(i also have wild caught native fish - which provide no companionship )

* Im not looking for a companion "pet" - i have a domestic dog and a err
lady friend - 

Those i think are the main areas people thought i had intentions for - or 
at least didn't consider that i didn't.

Yet the main sore point expressed by many people posting on this thread
was my comment admitting it was my *selfish* desire for pet ownership.. 

I think keeping 99% of pets is purely a selfish act in itself... do my fish
get anything out of being kept my be, no, not at all - they're kept in a 
tank inside my house for my own pure enjoyment - this is selfish of me.
But this doesn't necessarily translate to me being a bad pet owner or
keeping pets for the wrong reasons - more a case of being humble in
admitting to something that isn't particularly nice sounding, however true.


In closing, please attack my ideas - in fact i really do welcome it!
But.. please refrain from attacking me personally - and ill surely
afford you the same in return -


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## Caity (Apr 1, 2008)

Isn't it unlawful to keep a native animal (your fish) in Australia? I know my ex was going to get some kind of tree frog and had to get some sort of license for it.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Caity said:


> Isn't it unlawful to keep a native animal (your fish) in Australia? I know my ex was going to get some kind of tree frog and had to get some sort of license for it.


No it legal in my state, and from the collection areas i visit.

Frogs on the other hand.. depends on the state.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Geebus, IMHO, you are the victim of guilt by association. You came onto the forum immediately after a troll-attack, and the proximity of your appearance has connected you, in some minds, to the troll.

But, I do have to question this thread. The impression I got from the first post was that you were intending to collect the rodents and keep them as you would pets? Isn't that domesticating wild life? And now you're saying you have no intention of taming wild rodents?

I have to agree with the others who've said it's a bad idea. "Rescuing" wild rodents from possible extermination would fall under the catagory of trying to "save them all" which can become a problem for some people.- hoarding.

The fact is, wild rodents are not the same as pet rodents. Their needs are different, their mind sets are different, and they do not adapt well to domestication. 

Do wild rodents have the same "value" as individuals as our pets? Of course. They are easlily as intelligent, each has their own personality, and intrinsic value as the rodents we keep as companions. They deserve respect and dignity, and in the case of an infestation which makes it necessary to remove them, as humane a removal as possible, whether that means live traps and re-release, or extermination. 
Live trapping is obviously not a viable option in this case, where they're already an invasive species.

Caity, I don't know much about Austrailia's animal-control laws, except that they don't allow export of native species for the pet trade. (yay for Australia, I wish other countries would follow suit!) But I know here in the States you have to have a permit to keep any kind of wild life. (go figure, you can buy just about any exotic you'd like from the petshop, permit-free, but if you collect native species for your fish-tank, you'd better have that bit of paper.)

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

geebus, I guess it was a misworded line that gave off the impression that you would follow through with an inhumane practice of eradicating the invasive pest.... this is why I questioned you rather than point my finger at you & call you names (not my style anyway)

I too have suffered the recoil of poorly worded posts. I really attempt to be as word specific & word precise as possible & that too has awarded me the label of being a cold hearted B*tch with no compassion for others. This is very much NOT the case... I attempt to remove emotion & personal touch to the post on purpose so that no one can apply some sort of TONE to my words. It is only when the impassioned or sensitive readers attempts to force these moods to my words that things get ugly & they cry Julia is being mean to me. BAH!

So I take your curiosity of how these creature interact within their community structure as a positive thing & I only implore you to find a positive way to follow through with observations. People have to realize that we all do this on some level each & every day of our lives. You mentioned your interest in observing these wild mice & people wanted to hang you for it. I wrote I long post & attached photos of a recent observation of another wild life form.... the Monarch Butterfly post over in the lounge. I mean, I created the butterfly garden that attracted them to my office window with the "selfish" desire to be able to see them while at my keyboard plugging away. I say selfish because the yard was fine just being grass in this location & I'm sure my decision to plant a landscaped garden there displaced 1000's of life forms there. I know I pissed off the ant bed that I poisoned & the lizards were upset that I dug up the crappy hedge that blocked my view.

So with that said... maybe others can see that your wish to observe the mice really isn't all that different than my desire to watch the butterflies, yet the two posts were responded to in such different ways.

Funny how things work out

Don't you think?

If you are able to erect some sort of "house" for these wild mice maybe you could go hi-tech & place a web cam or something on them. Wouldn't that be interesting to watch. You would have to construct a small enclosure but you would not be able to contain them. Some traffic within & out to the world would be necessary. But if you provide enough food it could curb some of their foraging instincts & that may keep them from returning to the area where extermination would be carried out.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Sorry about the personal attack, Geebus. That is all I have to say.


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

Marysmuse said:


> But I know here in the States you have to have a permit to keep any kind of wild life. (go figure, you can buy just about any exotic you'd like from the petshop, permit-free, but if you collect native species for your fish-tank, you'd better have that bit of paper.)
> 
> Rejoicing in the day,
> -Mary


not exactly accurate or at least not what I have witnessed as standing practice in sales of animals requiring special permits

The pet shops I do business with that sell pets that fall into those permit required species have the paperwork there that go with the animals. Example: skunks, they require a Class 3 license to own as a pet. I know the local store I do business with has those documents right there & they have to be submitted prior to the sale goes through. I've witnessed the transaction when there picking up supplies I need. Maybe they follow through better than other businesses, I don't know... all I do know is that I had to look high & low to find a store I would do business with because if they don't follow through with safe & humane practices with the care of the animals they sell & wouldn't even consider buying a box of dog treats from them.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Skunks are an odd one, though, many (most) states do not allow them as pets. Some allow them only with permits, some allow them outright, some allow only colors other than black and white.

Most of the reason is rabies concerns... and though you could vaccinate your skunk with a dog vaccine or what have you the state does not consider it vaccinated, so if it bites someone... or is outside...


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Marysmuse said:


> But, I do have to question this thread. The impression I got from the first post was that you were intending to collect the rodents and keep them as you would pets? Isn't that domesticating wild life? And now you're saying you have no intention of taming wild rodents?
> 
> I have to agree with the others who've said it's a bad idea. "Rescuing" wild rodents from possible extermination would fall under the catagory of trying to "save them all" which can become a problem for some people.- hoarding.
> 
> ...


Hi Mary-

Yes, collecting for pet/s is my intention - just my idea of pet isn't the 
same as others - ive kept dangerous animals capable of killing me
Purely for the enjoyment and fascination for them - yet my bare skin
rare touched them.

Im definately not attempting to save more than a couple - and no risk
of haording lol.. hehe



Rejoicing in the temple

-Geebus


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

So you're taking an animal that's able to roam freely about wherever it pleases and taking it from its home and putting it in a maze for your amusement?


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## Indigo_Paradox (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Geebus,

With my aunt I did wild animal rescue for a while. I now still rescue animals, but only "domesticated" ones.

We syringe fed baby wild rats and mice too... and even rescued some wild rats that someone had caught in traps to feed to their snake because they decided it was better than feeding "pet rats." Although that was of course dangerous to their snake and a wild rat killed their snake (poor snake)... but that's a horrible story for another time.

Anyhoo... it seems to me that you have no intention of taming them, and that's good because in my experience you won't be able to. Even the ones we syringe fed were wild animals. We released all of the ones we "rescued" afterward.

I choose not to do wild rodent rescue anymore because it's just too much of a pain in the a**. And I got real tired of being bitten, etc etc. Plain and simple; I enjoy my pet ratties so much more and rescuing pet ratties and mousies and things so much more.

However, if that is what you want to do I want you to know that I'm here for you with any advice you may need. Please feel free to PM me if you would like.

I have a lot of good information about how to house, feed, etc etc a wild animal so that it's surroundings are as close as they can be to its wild environment.

I do have to say though, that the best situation for a wild rat or mouse is in the wild. That is where it will be the most healthy, happy and free. However, if you do things the right way then the little ones will probably be okay. 

Be prepared to spend some $$ on making a big enough enclosure and buying the right kind of wild food.

Good luck!

-Rozaylia


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

I personally think you should leave them where they are. It's not as if they're injured or anything, they're healthy WILD animals enjoying their lives where they should be. 

I think if you want to observe them you should opt to try to find something to set up with webcams etc, opposed to taking an animal out of their natural environment. Also, you will get their true natural behaviour this way, which wouldn't be the case of an animal captured and locked up.


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## cinderella (Sep 10, 2007)

This thread fascinates me, especially as Ive recently had the privelege of working with a wildlife rehabber with squirrels and oppossums.

I think if I were you, and in same situation I would consider the same thing. With the exception that much like the squirrels (that are unreleasable, diability ect.) Id only keep the ones that seem to adjust to some sort of enclosure, the ones that wont adjust will almost commit suicide so humane euthanization would be preferred.

I know less about wild mice, but I would think, in the non pet factor for observation and a very very large cage with numerous hiding places, branches and everything in their current habitat it would be very interesting. My only concern would be that they not continually repopulate and Im not sure how wild same sex colonies would do with their social structure.

Locally for example 2 common invasive species are the Cuban tree frog and red eared sliders. When found wildlife officials euthanize. I ahve ran across the tree frogs, older ones capable of eating...you wouldnt believe and kept them to watch as well. I also legally own 6 Red eared slider (turtles) the 2 newly acquired were found wondering through my yard, but appeared to be very comfortable with humans and reptile pellets, so I kept them. However, theres a difference with the complete natural born feral ones and those I just rush along as I believe theyll be happy for the time they can evade rangers, and Ive also never found a wild one who would readily accept store bought veggies and pellets


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

How do i worm then when i catch them..?















Stace87 said:


> I personally think you should leave them where they are. It's not as if they're injured or anything, they're healthy WILD animals enjoying their lives where they should be. .


Do you also think termites should be left in peoples houses..? :wink:


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Who mentioned anything about them being in your house :?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Stace87 said:


> Who mentioned anything about them being in your house :?


No one, certainly not me.. what are you on about..?

Ive already made it pretty clear - the rodents are in the shed/s...
Its hardly some natural wilderness..folks..
They are a real problem (we are experiencing a mouse plague).


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

geebus said:


> How do i worm then when i catch them..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were you thinking of keeping termites as pets too? :wink: If not then that example isn't really the same as what your trying to do. You say the mice and rats are destructive and so are termites obviously no one is disagreeing with that. I think it's just the keeping the wild animal for your amusement that is bothering people. I wont say it bothers me because I have caught wild lizards and such when I was younger thinking I could keep them as a pet. And it never worked out. They either died or I let them go. I say find a way to keep them out of your home or sheds for sure, but don't keep some for yourself. There's really no point. It doesn't really matter whether you have done it before with other animals either it still doesn't make it right. But like someone said it's ultimately your choice. And it seems like you already have your mind made up anyway.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

AceYourFace said:


> Were you thinking of keeping termites as pets too? :wink: If not then that example isn't really the same as what your trying to do. You say the mice and rats are destructive and so are termites obviously no one is disagreeing with that..


Yeah, not the perfect comparison - and it wasn't meant to be so much a
comparison for taking in a wild pet, more as in rebuttal to the seemingly
common opinion - that i should just leave them where they are and how
horrible it is to remove them ...?


I have to admit, im not all that interesting in a moral show down of sorts..
just was keen to be informed of precautions with wild rodents with regards
mostly to parasites and how to flush them out.


Anyways - rejoicing in the moral squabble -


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

It is really hard for some people to *not* engage on a moral or ethical level. So we have to learn how to best deal with this. How we respond ultimately defines our human compassion & tolerance for & toward the diversity that is very much a reality in everything we expose ourselves to each & every day of our lives.

(I had a much longer post but I think this short sweet one liner says all I need to say on the subject)


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

I know what you mean Gulia, for me im more of a ethical thinker
and less of a moral contemplated thinker- 

So, i think what im doing is ethical - but not so much considering
the moral side...


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

hmmm I dont really see how its ethical or moral lol and isn't that basically the same thing lol? 

Dictionary.com
ethÂ·iÂ·cal 
1.	pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

AceYourFace said:


> hmmm I dont really see how its ethical or moral lol and isn't that basically the same thing lol? .


What don't you consider ethical..? -


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

AceYourFace said:


> hmmm I dont really see how its ethical or moral lol and isn't that basically the same thing lol?
> 
> Dictionary.com
> ethÂ·iÂ·cal
> 1.	pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.


Morals define a personal character, ethics define an action. But the difference is subtle.


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

I think they would be hard to keep, and extremely hard to tame. Also, are their needs the same as their domesticated equivalents? If not, would you be able to provide for them properly? They would make awful pets...they're just not interested in human contact.

If the whole point of this is experimental in nature...I think it would be cooler to watch them in their own habitat. If you put a wild mouse in a cage it's just going to be like any other **** mouse (except you would have caught it yourself, risked getting bitten, etc). I think the reason why I find wild species so interesting is because they're WILD. It would be better to observe them in the wild. I just saw a bush mouse run across my deck and jump into the trees, have you seen those things run in trees? It's insane! I get bush rats living in the trees here too, and it's interesting to watch them climb the trees at night. If I catch them and put them in a cage, I don't see why they would be any more interesting than the rats I already have.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I think (correct me if I am wrong geebus) that the bottomline here is that these mice in the shed ARE going to be exterminated no matter what, and that geebus would like to take in a few of them before this happens. So we could be debating captivity over "natural" death for wild creatures next.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

collisiontheory89 said:


> I think they would be hard to keep, and extremely hard to tame. Also, are their needs the same as their domesticated equivalents? If not, would you be able to provide for them properly? They would make awful pets...they're just not interested in human contact.
> .


Ok, ive mentioned it a couple of times... i have NO desire to tame anything
im also not concerned about interaction/"human contact"...

Your NZ wild rats are an interesting topic... they're contributing to the
extinction of several of your endemic species.


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## cute-rat (Jun 25, 2008)

I have just started reading this thread and couldnt help but comment on a few things. This is the first quote that stood out at me:



KayRatz said:


> Owning animals bred for pets is done because some retarded human out there bred them to the point that they cannot care for themselves in the wild, and now we pet owners who don't breed are basically cleaning up after the breeders



This is simply not true. Most pets would survive if released into the wild. There are soo many examples of where pets (cats, pigs, dogs, rabbits, goats, turtles .. etc etc etc. Have survived and reproduced after many many years in captivity. If you think you are doing a kind deed by keeping these animals in captivity you are wrong. All evidence suggests they would survive if released in the wild.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

cute-rat said:


> I have just started reading this thread and couldnt help but comment on a few things. This is the first quote that stood out at me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


here i would have to disagree. the species of pet may survive in the wild for a time before indiscrimnate breeding changed the breed. but the particular pet has the odds stacked against them. i will use rats as an example as we are a rat forum. 

zen developed a heart condition at 6 months. would have died a lot sooner in the wild then he did with me. 

chancey and serraphim both have perminent head tilts. for the sake of agrument, if they were to be released now, after they have recovered from the inner ear infection, they still would not survive. the tilt unbalances them and has affected serraphim's mental state as well. chancey is afraid of heights. neither one can actually run when stressed, they roll. because of the tilt they may have eating problems as well that i have to keep monitored. 

bribery is far too much a coward and a people lover to be safe for long. 

ink is absolutely fearless and chases the cats. she even plays with them. fine that they are my cats. sessho thinks the rats are his babies and minion has a healthy respect for their teeth. a hungry stray would love ink, meal delivered!

between personalities and health issues i KNOW these rats would not survive in the wild. even my others would not survive for long. but een then the wild ones don't last long either. BUT they are more adept at surviving in it then the domesticated ones would be as they have learned how to survive and what to do in the wild from birth. whereas our pets have learned to be pets instead. we don't expect a wild rat to be a good pet, why would we expect a pet rat to do well in the wild?

i'm not to say it doesn't happen. there are certainly cases where a released pet rat was taken back into a home after even a year a of being wild. some are lucky. but it is luck, not skill that gets them that far. 


to use other examples we'll turn to dogs. many of them are strays and they survive for years. but they are JUST surviving. their original wild counterparts the wolves are much healthier, much better fed and socially adjusted then their stray dog counterparts. also, the chances of the dog survival in the streets or in the wild will greatly depend on the breed. often you see the larger to medium sized dogs still on the streets. this may because the smaller lap dogs are not abandoned as often, or picked up more or it could be they just don't survive. 


in both cases the pet may have a chance of survival but neither the rat nor the stray dog are going to be as good at as their natural wild original counterparts. the chances are stacked against them. they are domesticated and have lost some of the tools to help them survive properly in the wild. both strays really only have a chance if they can stay near civilaztion and scrounge from our left overs and take shelter in our abandoned places. in the true wild, the chances for survival are even steeper. i'm sure that there would be one pet out the bunch abandoned that could do, just based off the law of statistics but i still doubt they would be able to do it well. could you see a chihuahua surviving in the yukon winters out in the wild? 



anyway, my point is, not all domesticated animals are going to do well in the wild. sure the species is not likely to take any type of blow for their abandonment, but that particular animal is at great risk and the chances are very low that they will survive any great amount of time in the wild. i'm sure there are species that would be fine, even the individual would be ok (cows, sheep, horses, most farm animals likely) but the companion animals are going to have a harder time of it. especially if they are abandoned in a climate they really have no business being (chihuahua in the yukon). 



now after that long long tangent i do have something to contribute to the original discussion. 

geebus- i think what a lot of people (or at least me) mean by taming is that caging an animal and having them survive in the cage is the basic form of taming. you need them to eat and drink from what you give them. they also need to stay in the cage or in captivity when you are putting food and water in or cleaning the cage. this means handling. it is possible to scare a rat or mouse to death. in order not to do that they have to learn to trust you at least some and that is the basic form of taming. this is what can be very difficult to do with an otherwise healthy wild animal. some species are easier then others of course but still difficult and can be disasterous. 

caging the animal (mouse or rat) in a approiate enough cage for them is also going to be difficult. many people have raised this concern but unless i missed it i have not seen a reply to it from you. they are going to need an inordinate amount of space, mice more so then rats as mice have a larger natural territories then rats, they actually travel further from their burrows then rats are wont to do. if you want to observe them as best you can while in capitivity you're going to have to have an extremely large enclosure. 

if your argument to that is that no matter the size of cage you have for them its better then being dead, as they would be if left in the shed, that is not necessarily true. there are many things humans can do without and still have their bodies function, but that doesn't mean its desirable. 

after all that, ultimately i think you can probably keep a couple or a few of them alive. rats/mice are fairly hardy. i'm not sure if they would prefer captivity over death, i'm not sure you will enjoy having them to care for. if there is another alternative to satisfy your goals i think i would try to explore that. austraila is pretty big, could you catch some of the ones in the shed and move them to another location that you have set up for them in the wild? you'd have research their needs and how they function but could you build something more natural then a shed for them and get them to stay there. if there is a food source they should hang around the new place rather then go back to the shed. you could set up some cameras maybe so you could watch them. this would give some of the mice a chance and free you of responsibility of caring for them as a sole provider of everything. maybe just the intial setup and some food to keep them there. if it came to it, they are living in that shed anyway, you could always make a crud shed further away and stocked with food just for them to keep them out of the shed that you don't want them in. 


how long do you have to make your decision though? you said they were due to be exterminated. when is that going to be?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

twitch said:


> . after all that, ultimately i think you can probably keep a couple or a few of them alive. rats/mice are fairly hardy. i'm not sure if they would prefer captivity over death, i'm not sure you will enjoy having them to care for. if there is another alternative to satisfy your goals i think i would try to explore that. austraila is pretty big, could you catch some of the ones in the shed and move them to another location that you have set up for them in the wild? you'd have research their needs and how they function but could you build something more natural then a shed for them and get them to stay there. if there is a food source they should hang around the new place rather then go back to the shed. you could set up some cameras maybe so you could watch them. this would give some of the mice a chance and free you of responsibility of caring for them as a sole provider of everything. maybe just the intial setup and some food to keep them there. if it came to it, they are living in that shed anyway, you could always make a crud shed further away and stocked with food just for them to keep them out of the shed that you don't want them in.
> 
> 
> how long do you have to make your decision though? you said they were due to be exterminated. when is that going to be?


Relocation isn't an option - i know for certain no one will be willing to have
them released on their property - and i couldn't in release
them into a fauna reserve or national park.

Theres no particular dead line - but no action is being taken until ive 
decided and or collected those i want.... and this is about where the 
persons limits for accommodating me end (understandably)


On the note of released domestics - Australia has a serious problem with
them, largely due to our unique fauna the result of geographic isolation
has rendered many of out native species vulnerable to competition or
predation from non-native species for which they have no comparable
native equivalent..

The Feral Cat being perhaps the worst of the lot -  

Some (likely most) animals domesticated by humans will eventually revert
back to their wild type origins with in a few generations - the Feral pigs
in Australia are an unfortunate example of this... they're the product of 
released/escaped domestic farm pigs - but soon revert back to their wild
type origins with serious consequences for native animals.

It would be totally against my own personnel ethics to capture and then
release anything not native - in fact its actually illegal in some states -
and its actually the law to destroy a declared pest if captured.

I try to be active in this situation - and always destroy if captured....
particularly cats - if they aren't contained they're fair game IMO its 
highly irresponsible of their owner to let them roam free.. further more
its actually illegal to do it - !


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

if its illegal to catch and keep declared pests how are going to do that with the mice you are interested in? wouldn't it be illegal to keep them?


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

twitch said:


> if its illegal to catch and keep declared pests how are going to do that with the mice you are interested in? wouldn't it be illegal to keep them?



This one is a bit of a "Catch 22" in this circumstance - because the 
domestic version is legal, similar to the "domestic cat" being a 
legal animal to keep - so you could keep a feral (domestic gone wild)
Cat if you choose - but you cant release it again.

On the other hand if you catch a wild rabbit - its illegal to keep it - and
its actually also illegal to own one in general - unless under strict permit
for breeding for the meat industry... this is in my state, which is rather
strict in relation to Rabbits and other rodents.


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

Forensic said:


> AceYourFace said:
> 
> 
> > hmmm I dont really see how its ethical or moral lol and isn't that basically the same thing lol?
> ...


Ah gotcha :wink:


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

geebus said:


> collisiontheory89 said:
> 
> 
> > I think they would be hard to keep, and extremely hard to tame. Also, are their needs the same as their domesticated equivalents? If not, would you be able to provide for them properly? They would make awful pets...they're just not interested in human contact.
> ...


Okay, now that you've made that clear, what's the freakin' point then? You don't care whether they like you or not or what they do...yet you want to put them in a cage? Just because?

Oh yes, it's funny you should mention the rat thing....actually, that reminds me of *your* black and brown rats, which are also killing *your* endemic species. In fact it also reminds me of all your foxs and rabbits, and not to mention your hideous cane toads. Funny that. :roll:


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## StickyTurtle (Jul 19, 2008)

i have to agree that not all pets can survive in the wild.
the reason why so many red ear slider turtles are being released is because people don't realize how expensive and how big of a tank they need to care for them (sorta like rats, i guess). so they release these medium size turtles (that are in most cases still growing) into their ponds to live. there are a few problems with this. One, the turtle won't realize its not going to be hand-fed and will probably die, two, it could potentially pass on whatever sickness it has to the native species and three, it will def. push out the native species (hence why red ear sliders are being killed and hence why the ones cinderella found were 'tame'. its no doubt that they were pets in the past). however, i don't see this happening often with rodents as they don't tend to live as long as red ear sliders (up to 40 years in captivity)

also, after reading this post i am sort of leaning towards Geebus's side here. whether it is a choice between life or death by execution for some of them i would probably try to save a few too. as long as Geebus is commited to their care and commited to trying to replicate their normal habitat as much as possible i don't see the problem. perhaps the few rats that he saves will be happy with their new home.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

collisiontheory89 said:


> Okay, now that you've made that clear, what's the freakin' point then? You don't care whether they like you or not or what they do...yet you want to put them in a cage? Just because?


Whats the point you ask... well ive explained myself several times in this
thread - and i don't think i ever stated i don't care what they do as captives.
I did explain that i don't have a need/desire for them to be any form of
"companion" animal.. i have a dog - :lol: and human friends - 8O 

Think about people who keep fish - they don't pat them hold them play
with them (generally speaking) - they simply enjoy caring for them and
watching them go about there business... a lot of animals don't like human
contact and at best will simply tolerate it... much like the pythons i have 
here they're all very calm animals rarely try to bite out side of feeding
yet they don't enjoy being handled they simply tolerated it.






collisiontheory89 said:


> Oh yes, it's funny you should mention the rat thing....actually, that reminds me of *your* black and brown rats, which are also killing *your* endemic species. In fact it also reminds me of all your foxs and rabbits, and not to mention your hideous cane toads. Funny that. :roll:



I take it from the " :roll: " icon - you might have thought i was having a 
go at you - but far from it - my point is these animals aren't a harmless
part of the eco-system, and yes Australia has many problem species..
Thats my points to those saying i should leave the mice where they are
now and to those who say its there natural habitat.

Its almost always the case that a non-native animal becomes a problem
.......... for example (and im not having a dig at you) Australian
possums in New Zealand are a complete menace... ..... should they be
left there ... is it natural...??? :wink:


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

*collisiontheory89*

Would you be kind enough to let me know what endemic (most natives
in Australia are endemic anyways) species in Australia are under threat
from non-native rats..? as im very interested - 

The main species i was thinking of in NZ that was under serious threat 
from rats was the Tuatara lizard.


Cheers,
GEEBUS!


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

Geebus, in your situation, I say there's no reason not to. Go for it. Living spoiled rotten by you is better then a death sentence. And right now I really don't think it'd be a selfish act. You ARE helping your environment. Really this is all I have to say.

PS: your messager begins with a K. So I hope you didn't shoot any people that didn't start with a K.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

RoRo said:


> PS: your messager begins with a K. So I hope you didn't shoot any people that didn't start with a K.





:? - you baffle me.


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