# Breeder recommendations?



## Lightswitch Man

I've owned many rats over many years, but still consider myself a new rat owner as I've only ever bought my girls from big box pet stores. After deciding it's a poor idea to breed my own new babies with my extremely limited knowledge, I'm now considering a breeder. 

I'm 100% new to searching for a breeder and I've done countless hours of research including all stickies on this site. I'm not opposed to another pair from a local big box pet store, but my wife and daughter think we may save some heartache caused by illness/short lifespan due to poor pet store "feeder" stock. Thanks so much for any help you can provide!

I'm in the United States Dallas, TX area. I'm willing to drive a long way to support the right person.

I would prefer:
Not interested in a perfect example of a pedigree, but rather a couple of healthy, intelligent, long lived wonderful pets. I do love dumbos but it's not a deal breaker. I have a two level critter nation with fleece on small platforms and carefresh natural in stainless bass pans on the large levels. Lots of toys, hand sewn hammocks and plenty of free range time with the family. I feed Regal Rat, fresh veggie/fruit scraps from our meal prep and coco crispies for training. Supplemental vitamin drops in water.

I would not prefer:
I would prefer not to deal with someone standoffish and abrasive as a couple breeder sites seem to be, or with a crazy "contract". (Hint to these types of breeders: You're honestly better off conducting a good interview to determine suitability since someone irresponsible or abusive enough to mistreat a rat has no problem signing a legally unenforceable document. Also, an air of moral superiority or contempt for potential customers makes me want to patronize big box pet stores where I'm at least treated good while trying to save a creature.)

Thanks again to anyone spending time to help me and my family make an informed decision. I've come to understand that the majority of you serious rat owners hold passionate beliefs and appologize in advance if any part of my post offends you.


----------



## Kelsbels

I don't know about your area, but I've been looking up and visiting (when possible) breeders in my area. I think it's good to look online for breeders or as some folks on here have suggested ask your local pet store if they know anyone breeding rats as pets. If you get info for these people I suggest reading everything on their websites and calling/ emailing to meet in person and see their rattery. 

When visiting, trust your gut on whether or not the set up feels right. I visited this one with sweet rats, and the cages were large, but the room smelled heavily like urine/dirty cage. Whether it was cleaning day after we would leave or its always like that it didn't sit well with me.

With the contracts, yeah they can be a bit strange, and most breeders have them. Just read through them to see if it would work for you. The contracts here ask for owners to contact them when the rat has any illness, tumor, or when they pass away. This will help the breeder to know which rats will make healthier future rats. I'm sure that the contracts you mention would say something along those lines. 

Good luck on your search!


----------



## Lightswitch Man

Kelsbels said:


> I don't know about your area, but I've been looking up and visiting (when possible) breeders in my area. I think it's good to look online for breeders or as some folks on here have suggested ask your local pet store if they know anyone breeding rats as pets. If you get info for these people I suggest reading everything on their websites and calling/ emailing to meet in person and see their rattery.
> 
> When visiting, trust your gut on whether or not the set up feels right. I visited this one with sweet rats, and the cages were large, but the room smelled heavily like urine/dirty cage. Whether it was cleaning day after we would leave or its always like that it didn't sit well with me.
> 
> With the contracts, yeah they can be a bit strange, and most breeders have them. Just read through them to see if it would work for you. The contracts here ask for owners to contact them when the rat has any illness, tumor, or when they pass away. This will help the breeder to know which rats will make healthier future rats. I'm sure that the contracts you mention would say something along those lines.
> 
> Good luck on your search!


Thanks for the creative idea of asking at the pet stores. Unfortunately, the Internet has been almost useless so far. I've only found one rattery nearby and even the "Rat Association of Texas" website had no information! I'm hoping to get some good references here. I've found TONS of rat rescues, but from what I understand, most of those are just abandoned pet store rats.


----------



## Kelsbels

So one of the places I check is Craigslist. Sometimes breeders just list that they have babies, and they might have website a long with it (not all posts are sad/feeders). It just takes some serious hunting haha. My native language is English and I'm trying to navigate all these sites in German. 

Maybe try search terms in google like:
"Ratteries Dallas, Texas"
"Rat breeders Dallas, Texas"

From those I already see some sites and forum posts to start looking through.


----------



## Lightswitch Man

Kelsbels said:


> So one of the places I check is Craigslist. Sometimes breeders just list that they have babies, and they might have website a long with it (not all posts are sad/feeders). It just takes some serious hunting haha. My native language is English and I'm trying to navigate all these sites in German.
> 
> Maybe try search terms in google like:
> "Ratteries Dallas, Texas"
> "Rat breeders Dallas, Texas"
> 
> From those I already see some sites and forum posts to start looking through.


What I've found searching those exact search terms are links to breeders that no longer breed and forum posts with links to breeders that no longer breed, lol. Soooooo many hours following broken breeder links. Nothing on cl, but I'll keep checking from time to time. I'm definitely in no hurry. I'm just surprised there's no established reputable breeders in such a massive metroplex, save for the one. Thanks so much for your time.


----------



## Rat Daddy

Ethical breeding is not a business that sustains itself, rather it's an expensive hobby. So often people with good intentions realize they can't afford it and stop doing it. And other's go nuts with questionnaires and forms and interviews that make them almost impossible to deal with. And some have waiting lists months long or have rules about adopting multiple rats.

So far no good business model exists for an "ethical rattery." Until the day comes when someone can actually make a business out of breeding better rats and properly socializing them, those of us who are looking for better rats from ethical breeders are at the mercy of hobbyists. And finding any such rat is hit or miss.

Best Luck.


----------



## Lightswitch Man

Rat Daddy said:


> Ethical breeding is not a business that sustains itself, rather it's an expensive hobby. So often people with good intentions realize they can't afford it and stop doing it. And other's go nuts with questionnaires and forms and interviews that make them almost impossible to deal with. And some have waiting lists months long or have rules about adopting multiple rats.
> 
> So far no good business model exists for an "ethical rattery." Until the day comes when someone can actually make a business out of breeding better rats and properly socializing them, those of us who are looking for better rats from ethical breeders are at the mercy of hobbyists. And finding any such rat is hit or miss.
> 
> Best Luck.


Wow, that's so sad.


----------



## FallDeere

I know lots of good breeders in the DFW area. I can PM you a link to the facebook group where I found them and give you the name of the breeder I got my three new girls from. She should still have several available, as well.


----------



## Rat Daddy

Actually, I think it's kind of sad too. It takes money and especially time to raise well socialized healthy rats. And it takes both knowledge and a certain gift to really breed and raise premium animals. It's part science and part art and most of all it takes commitment and a real love for the animals you are breeding and raising.

I know how much time we spend socializing our true shoulder rats... I worked with Misty for nearly six weeks before she would come out from under the covers and play on the floor. I might invest over 100 hours into a single rat before she even gets to go outside for the first time. Now I realize that most rat breeders don't do this much work with any single rat, but still there are no shortcuts to proper socialization and it's hard to part with an animal you invest so much of yourself into... 

Most ethical breeders sell their rats for way less than they have invested into them counting both time, money and love... It might provide for a rewarding hobby, but a business model puts food on the table. And over time business that make money tend to endure whereas hobbies that cost money tend to decline.

When you find an ethical breeder consider yourself very lucky.... at any price a well bred and well socialized rat is a bargain. 

Definitely follow up FallDeere for leads...


----------



## FallDeere

I've pointed him in the right direction.  It is REALLY hard to find breeders around here just by Googling. Few have websites. But once you join the local groups on facebook, you realize this area is filled to the brim with breeders of all sorts.


----------



## Kelsbels

Falldeere, yeah Googling isn't the best, but it's a start. 

I'm just use to it because that's basically the only option I have with a language barrier. 

I'm glad you gave him options!


----------



## Lightswitch Man

Rat Daddy said:


> Actually, I think it's kind of sad too. It takes money and especially time to raise well socialized healthy rats. And it takes both knowledge and a certain gift to really breed and raise premium animals. It's part science and part art and most of all it takes commitment and a real love for the animals you are breeding and raising.
> 
> I know how much time we spend socializing our true shoulder rats... I worked with Misty for nearly six weeks before she would come out from under the covers and play on the floor. I might invest over 100 hours into a single rat before she even gets to go outside for the first time. Now I realize that most rat breeders don't do this much work with any single rat, but still there are no shortcuts to proper socialization and it's hard to part with an animal you invest so much of yourself into...
> 
> Most ethical breeders sell their rats for way less than they have invested into them counting both time, money and love... It might provide for a rewarding hobby, but a business model puts food on the table. And over time business that make money tend to endure whereas hobbies that cost money tend to decline.
> 
> When you find an ethical breeder consider yourself very lucky.... at any price a well bred and well socialized rat is a bargain.
> 
> Definitely follow up FallDeere for leads...


I did follow up with falldeere and have a good idea how to proceed now. Thanks for illuminating and detailed explanation. This forum is such a valuable resource!


----------



## moonkissed

It can be a bit difficult to find breeders. I honestly had the same issue until I started breeding myself. It is more like a tight knit circle but there are some really amazing breeders located all over! Honestly I have found facebook to be the best source in networking and finding breeders. Search for rat groups in your area and then ask about breeders. Someone will usually know someone and send u there. It kindof feels like a big ol circle that you need the secret handshake to get into but we are all super nice and friendly so it is actually very easy once u start looking 

Some breeders can tend to seem standoffish... the truth is it is not easy being a breeder. While you may be 100% awesome most other people are not. And it can be a headache in a half dealing with alot of people. Some people do this as a hobby and u can't imagine how many ppl contact them who are never even going to purchase a rat. i could tell u such stories *cry* ppl can be annoying and crazy lol While you are only seeing it from your side, they have dealt with so many ppl messaging them who end up going poof they just cant give that much time/energy to everyone. I would not take it personal. Plus being an amazing breeder doesn't always make someone an awesome customer service person. I try to be personally but not everyone has that skill- it doesn't take away from the animals though. (this is another reason I do suggest joining rat groups and making friends with the local breeders)

I am not sure what u mean by "crazy" contract? Many breeders do like using a contract, as it does drive away some people who are not responsible. A properly worded contract is legally binding as well. While most people prob would not pursue the issue they could if they wanted to. And for me personally it just is a way to get my intentions and their intentions down on paper so we both understand fully & are both on the same page. Alot can be lost in just a discussion. So I like something official that states everything and that they agree. By the time a contract is given the adoption process has already happened and they were approved so any irresponsible people should have hopefully already been weeded out.

Good responsible breeders also put alot of effort and work into their lines. Yeah some people are not good enough for them. There is alot of personal choice in pet care, but if I felt strongly that the cage, food, care someone was using was not appropriate- I would tell them so. Yes some people may take it too far but not that often from my experience.

When you breed you make the conscious choice to bring these little lives into the world and everything that happens to them is on you. Finding them the absolute best forever home is the most important thing possible for them. And it is so much harder then most people realize! That is alot of pressure on the breeder- I am wary of anyone who wouldn't make someone jump through flaming hoops to get one of the babies! IMO adopting a pet is a huge responsibility, taking the time to answer questions and have me and u get to know each other seems like a simple task to go through. 

Also I saw someone mention visiting their rattery- most if not all responsible breeders will NOT let u visit their rattery. Sadly it is far too risky. Entire colonies have been killed from someone bringing in something on them. I can not imagine anyone taking that risk these days. A good breeder though will generally be open about their care- pics, videos, etc... people often say that they can be faked or set up to look good but honestly the same can be said about a visit. You can't possibly know what happens 24/7. 

IDK what is wrong with waiting lists months long or rules about adopting multiple rats.... many breeders are responsible and only breed so many litters as not to over breed. They have great rats that ppl want. So it makes sense there would be a waiting list. I can't imagine why having to get a rat asap! No one likes waiting for stuff even less something as exciting about a pet but eh to get a great pet I can't see why that is an issue? Also yes most breeders will only adopt out pairs unless u already have rats. Rats should not be kept solo. Some also still only adopt pairs- this is just a matter of preference, it can be helpful for the babies to have another rat their same age, I find most are fine with adopting out one if u have rats already.

Anyways....

I do know there are some great breeders in Texas though it is a large state & i can't recall off the top of my head where exactly. I'm all the way in NY so Im not as familiar with the ones down that way. So i would definitely search facebook for local rat groups. There is also world wide groups like rats are awesome or rat fan club that may be able to point u towards some breeders.

Goodluck!!


----------



## Lightswitch Man

moonkissed said:


> It can be a bit difficult to find breeders. I honestly had the same issue until I started breeding myself. It is more like a tight knit circle but there are some really amazing breeders located all over! Honestly I have found facebook to be the best source in networking and finding breeders. Search for rat groups in your area and then ask about breeders. Someone will usually know someone and send u there. It kindof feels like a big ol circle that you need the secret handshake to get into but we are all super nice and friendly so it is actually very easy once u start looking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some breeders can tend to seem standoffish... the truth is it is not easy being a breeder. While you may be 100% awesome most other people are not. And it can be a headache in a half dealing with alot of people. Some people do this as a hobby and u can't imagine how many ppl contact them who are never even going to purchase a rat. i could tell u such stories *cry* ppl can be annoying and crazy lol While you are only seeing it from your side, they have dealt with so many ppl messaging them who end up going poof they just cant give that much time/energy to everyone. I would not take it personal. Plus being an amazing breeder doesn't always make someone an awesome customer service person. I try to be personally but not everyone has that skill- it doesn't take away from the animals though. (this is another reason I do suggest joining rat groups and making friends with the local breeders)
> 
> I am not sure what u mean by "crazy" contract? Many breeders do like using a contract, as it does drive away some people who are not responsible. A properly worded contract is legally binding as well. While most people prob would not pursue the issue they could if they wanted to. And for me personally it just is a way to get my intentions and their intentions down on paper so we both understand fully & are both on the same page. Alot can be lost in just a discussion. So I like something official that states everything and that they agree. By the time a contract is given the adoption process has already happened and they were approved so any irresponsible people should have hopefully already been weeded out.
> 
> Good responsible breeders also put alot of effort and work into their lines. Yeah some people are not good enough for them. There is alot of personal choice in pet care, but if I felt strongly that the cage, food, care someone was using was not appropriate- I would tell them so. Yes some people may take it too far but not that often from my experience.
> 
> When you breed you make the conscious choice to bring these little lives into the world and everything that happens to them is on you. Finding them the absolute best forever home is the most important thing possible for them. And it is so much harder then most people realize! That is alot of pressure on the breeder- I am wary of anyone who wouldn't make someone jump through flaming hoops to get one of the babies! IMO adopting a pet is a huge responsibility, taking the time to answer questions and have me and u get to know each other seems like a simple task to go through.
> 
> Also I saw someone mention visiting their rattery- most if not all responsible breeders will NOT let u visit their rattery. Sadly it is far too risky. Entire colonies have been killed from someone bringing in something on them. I can not imagine anyone taking that risk these days. A good breeder though will generally be open about their care- pics, videos, etc... people often say that they can be faked or set up to look good but honestly the same can be said about a visit. You can't possibly know what happens 24/7.
> 
> IDK what is wrong with waiting lists months long or rules about adopting multiple rats.... many breeders are responsible and only breed so many litters as not to over breed. They have great rats that ppl want. So it makes sense there would be a waiting list. I can't imagine why having to get a rat asap! No one likes waiting for stuff even less something as exciting about a pet but eh to get a great pet I can't see why that is an issue? Also yes most breeders will only adopt out pairs unless u already have rats. Rats should not be kept solo. Some also still only adopt pairs- this is just a matter of preference, it can be helpful for the babies to have another rat their same age, I find most are fine with adopting out one if u have rats already.
> 
> Anyways....
> 
> I do know there are some great breeders in Texas though it is a large state & i can't recall off the top of my head where exactly. I'm all the way in NY so Im not as familiar with the ones down that way. So i would definitely search facebook for local rat groups. There is also world wide groups like rats are awesome or rat fan club that may be able to point u towards some breeders.
> 
> Goodluck!!


I'm with you about waiting lists. I feel that if you're not patient enough to wait for your rattie, then you're certainly not patient enough to deal with the often frustrating challenges of rat ownership. I really appreciate the info you've provided and can tell how much you care about these animals. 

I certainly understand what you mean about using a contract to provide information, but something like a fact sheet would suffice. Not to challenge you directly, so no offense, but I just want to get the following info out there. 

I do respectfully disagree about contracts being enforceable and it may just be wishful thinking on the part of breeders. Unfortunately, I've been through many lengthy civil cases and seen reasonable contracts that should have held up in court and drafted by lawyers thrown out. Now imagine a contract to protect a creature that has no legal protection in the United States! I challenge anyone to show me a precedent for one of these "contracts". Doubtful any attorney would even take the case much less win, and in that unlikely situation, at what cost?


Even if the buyer maliciously uses a rat to breed a unique line to compete directly with the creator of that line, unless appropriate patent work was filed in advance, it would be near impossible to prove and be awarded damages in tort litigation.

In a perfect world a reasonable contract signed by two parties in good faith for the protection of a rattie should be enforceable, but sadly, I assure you it is not. :-(


----------



## Grotesque

I know a great breeder in Milwaukee, too bad it is so ridiculously far. I tend to take in her retired Mommas. 

Anyway, I know you are looking for a good breeder, but have you considered checking your local Humane Society? Adopting adults who were given up on has been the most rewarding experience of my life.









That is Spicy experiencing a hammock for the first time in her life. She and her sister Sugar grew up in a box so small they couldn't turn around. They thank us every day for adopting them.


----------



## FallDeere

I sent them a link to the local rat rescue as well, Grotesque.


----------



## Lightswitch Man

Grotesque said:


> I know a great breeder in Milwaukee, too bad it is so ridiculously far. I tend to take in her retired Mommas.
> 
> Anyway, I know you are looking for a good breeder, but have you considered checking your local Humane Society? Adopting adults who were given up on has been the most rewarding experience of my life.
> 
> [iurl="http://www.ratforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=223177&d=1430015659"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]
> 
> That is Spicy experiencing a hammock for the first time in her life. She and her sister Sugar grew up in a box so small they couldn't turn around. They thank us every day for adopting them.


I have 4 girls currently that came from pet stores, which I consider the same as a rescue since most rescues start as feeders/pet store rats anyway. 

The only reason I'm considering a good breeder is my family feels they may have a bit longer lifespan and overall better health. Admittedly a bit of selfishness on our part in an attempt to save a bit of heartache from illness and premature death.


----------



## Jaymejj30

I'm not a breeder but I bred my albino with a Russian blue to get some healthier rats but there are rat group's on Facebook too have u look into that there's one called rat lovers and breeders in Wisconsin and surrounding states and they got a list of breeders that might help


----------



## Rat Daddy

Theoretically, there are certain "strains" of rats that are healthier than others. Or rather certain strains that are less healthy than others. But so far there's no good science that any particular breeder has a strain that's significantly better.

There are in my opinion certain strains that are particularly worse than average though...

Again, I'm not suggesting that a healthier strain doesn't exist or can't exist, in fact I believe it can, does and or will some day. It's just that almost everyone that breeds rats has some reason to believe, or at least claim, that their rats are superior. In fact, I did a survey some time back that would indicate that many breeder rats had the very same issues as feeder rats and that some feeder bin and pet shop rats live remarkably healthy and long lives.

So, keep in mind that many breeder claims really aren't founded on science or a long track record of many generations of success, they are often made to promote their rats and that many common fancy rats from wherever will lead long and healthy lives.


----------



## moonkissed

Rat Daddy said:


> Theoretically, there are certain "strains" of rats that are healthier than others. Or rather certain strains that are less healthy than others. But so far there's no good science that any particular breeder has a strain that's significantly better.
> 
> There are in my opinion certain strains that are particularly worse than average though...
> 
> Again, I'm not suggesting that a healthier strain doesn't exist or can't exist, in fact I believe it can, does and or will some day. It's just that almost everyone that breeds rats has some reason to believe, or at least claim, that their rats are superior. In fact, I did a survey some time back that would indicate that many breeder rats had the very same issues as feeder rats and that some feeder bin and pet shop rats live remarkably healthy and long lives.
> 
> So, keep in mind that many breeder claims really aren't founded on science or a long track record of many generations of success, they are often made to promote their rats and that many common fancy rats from wherever will lead long and healthy lives.


To be honest your statement is not founded on any science either. You have no experience breeding rats. A small question poll on a forum does not paint any sort of accurate picture.... giving anecdotal opinions is not helpful, very unfair to breeders who put in alot of work and effort on their lines and is just spreading misinformation. 

It does depend on the breeder. Not every breeder is going to have healthy rats. Putting two rats together & calling ones self a breeder doesn't make your rats healthier. But there are many very experienced amazing breeders who have very healthy lines. Not some tiny handful either. Alot of health issues are genetic- breeding only the healthiest rats, keeping very careful track of all your lines and rats from them, ending lines that prove not to be healthy etc... will mean you have healthier rats. Have you done any research on genetics and health issues that can be passed? Just like in people there are tons of health issues that can be passed down! It is the same with breeding of any animal. A stronger healthier stock of animal is going to also be more resistant and easier to thrive. Also things where a mother rat is not strong or healthy enough, not given proper diet or care and then her babies will not be given adequate start at life, leading to rats that are not as strong. 

There is also some really great progress being done with dwarf rats that are less prone to tumors!

There has been alot of research, work and effort by the breeding community on health. Just because it is not something you know or been a part of does not mean it does not exist. 

Yes I agree to never just believe someone, but look into a breeder who has experience and a great reputation and keeps track of their lines and u will likely find very healthy rats.


----------



## Grotesque

Lightswitch Man said:


> I have 4 girls currently that came from pet stores, which I consider the same as a rescue since most rescues start as feeders/pet store rats anyway.
> 
> The only reason I'm considering a good breeder is my family feels they may have a bit longer lifespan and overall better health. Admittedly a bit of selfishness on our part in an attempt to save a bit of heartache from illness and premature death.


That isn't selfish at all. The act of bringing any rat into your life regardless of its bloodline and origin is an act of love, in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with looking for a reputable breeder either as those are the breeders that need to be supported in their efforts of trying to breed healthy rats. 

My oldest rat is nearing 3 and she was rescued when a snake wouldn't eat her. She has had her share of health problems and she probably won't be with us much longer (sort of in hospice care right now). My little pet store girls are nearing a year old and have been healthy thus far. My humane society girls are around a year old (estimate) and have been healthy so far. 

The rats from my favorite breeder are a little over two years old and are starting to get the soft benign lumps. They are slow growing and will be removed if they become an issue. The breeder is aware of the issue and is trying to control the genetics... however it is that you would go about doing that. 

She is extremely on top of every little health issue that pops up and keeps close tabs on every rat she adopts out. For being two years old, the rats I have gotten from her are very energetic and healthy. I consider a small slow growing soft tumor popping up at two years old with no other health issues (even respiratory) a blessing. 

She doesn't charge for her retired breeders... only for the babies. I adore her and will always support her as a breeder. I hope everyone who opts for the breeder route in getting new rats can find one as responsible as mine. Honestly though, no matter where your rat comes from, they are special and just as deserving of love as the next one. 

Sorry for the rant. Talkative today, I guess.


----------



## Lightswitch Man

So, after the great help I got on this thread including links to breeder facebook pages and groups, I still can't find a single dumbo rat. The breeders I found don't have and aren't planning any dumbo litters and the closed group "Texas Rat Breeders and Owners" not only turned down my request, but blocked me so I can't even view the page!

Most likely since I didn't have a FB page and had to create one just to send requests to these groups, they probably thought I was spam. I REALLY don't want to buy a rat from a big box pet store, but unless you know people, apparently it's extremely difficult to find a dumbo at a good breeder. :-(

Any help would be appreciated.


----------

