# One of my does is causing me concern.



## CtayTheDumbo (Nov 24, 2010)

My hooded dumbo rex doe who I have had from approx 7 weeks old, she's 7 months now, has always behaved in a slightly different manner to my other rats, two bucks and her siamese doe cagemate +others.

When handled, she will immediately defecate and urinate, repeatedly all over you, making it very hard to handle her. She will also let out a blood curdling scream if you so much as touch her tail. She is fast becoming unmanagable, the soiling makes handling her a millitary operation, as I have to put on old clothes, tie my hair out of the way and make sure the floor beneth me is protected. She has climbed the bars of the cage and done this all over her cagemates too. I have to change their bedding each day as she won't use the toilet area, she will releive herself from the top of the bars, all over the food & bedding. I have seen her perch on the food dish, and do it into the food too, meaning I sometimes have to change their food up to 4 times per day to prevent contamination of the other rats. I have had to remove the other rats from the cage and bathe each one, often removing her faeces from their fur.

She displayed very odd behavour with 'other related rats', which included burying one in the food dish & proceding to cover them with food, digging into the food bowl, churning food out all over the cage and not eating so much as one grain.

She chews the bars, and when she's not chewing the bars, she sits in one spot & 'sways' from side to side, not even tapping on the bars breaks this.

She is kept with her siamese cagemate, and the 'other rats' who are waiting to be given new homes. She hasn't displayed aggression to Kim, her cagemate, or the 'other rats'. 

They are provided with toys, climbing equipment, a roast bone to chew on and are handled each day & given free range time. Although her free range time is limited now because me and my husband can't be doing with having to disinfect carpets & furniture she soils.

I know this sounds gross but I have never in my life seen so many droppings come out of a rat at once. My bucks are very clean, only doing it in the cage, and if they are out, and get desperate, they let me know by squatting down, then I put them back in their cage for a bit.

Her cagemate Kim is also very clean, and I have seen her distressed when she has been urinated or deficated on. I am worried about this being a source of potential skin & eye infections in the other rats. Some are due to be sold in a couple of weeks time and need to be in the peak of health. 

So, should I seperate her? I know it isn't fair to keep a rat on their own, but if it is posing a risk to other rat's health, then is it the lesser of the two evils?

What could be causing her to let out shreiks when her tail is touched? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with her tail, she is able to use it for balance & moves it around ok. She has no lumps, scabs or other injuries either.

I know bar chewing can be a sign of boredom but they are provided with the things I mentioned above, allowed free range (when it is possible due to the soiling) and handled.

Sadly she is unable to enjoy shoulder rides & playtime on my lap because of this, and I just wondered if it is something I am doing wrong. I have never had this kind of problem with any of my other rats, just this one. It's rather sad in a way, but perhaps she was just born like this? I have tried everything from giving her more time out of the cage, hand feeding her, making sure she eats a varied diet of salad, fruits, meat & other ratty foods, but this hasn't improved her behavour.

I don't think she will be playing a big part in my rat plans for the future sadly, she will have to live out her days in as much comfort as I can possibly provide her, but that will be it. I haven't had to deal with an oddly behaved rat, and my experience with rats is extensive. It must be quite rare to experience these issues.

~Ctay


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Poor girl, sounds like she has a very nervous disposition. What have you tried in the way of trust training? 
Also, when she and the other doe get free range time, are they removed from the cage to a different location?


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## CtayTheDumbo (Nov 24, 2010)

When they come out for free range, they both come out together, the siamese, Kim, will leave the cage by running up my arm onto my shoulder, then if I sit on the floor, she will run back down lol. This girl however is sadly not allowed on my shoulder, but I try to encourage her out of the cage with a small piece of food like chicken, peas, or lettuce. She will violently snatch this out of my hand & dive back into the cage, and a few seconds later, will make a mess. 

I keep them in the same room as the cage, and they can access the cage whenever they choose simply by climbing back in. I take the bucks downstairs as they're used to being away from their cage and are toilet trained.

Last night she perched on the bone they have in there for about 20 minutes. Did not move, screamed when I opened the cage to feed them as my hand accidentally brushed her tail, then shot into the food & messed all over the fresh food I had just put in.

I have tried various approaches, such as just opening the cage and allowing her to crawl out towards me, in return for a small treat, but often I am not able to handle her due to my hands making contact with her tail. She seems ok with other rats touching her tail though, just not human hands.

I can sometimes stroke her body ok, but if she moves or turns quickly, causing me to touch her tail, she screams & wets herself.

I really feel sad watching her, and I am continuing to try some of the trust training things, as many as I can given how dirty she has become. I am not holding this against her though, I can always put on old clothes & put a plastic sheet on the floor, that's not such an issue.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

With my nervous girl, I found she generally only enjoyed her free time if she took it on her own terms, ie, I'd put her cage on the floor in the lounge or the kitchen and sometimes she would come out by herself, (other times, I'd have to lure her out with food)...if I were in your position, I would probably be inclined to limit freerange to the kitchen, bathroom or similarly easy to clean place...if the cage isn't easy to move, I'd use a use a travel cage or a modified box...the objective being to give the rat a safe feeling home base. 

With the trust training and snatching, giving them something they can't snatch is the trick, I used things like yogurt, soup (liquid that is) or juice on a spoon. Another thing I did was put the cage on the kitchen table when I was sitting at it for extended periods of time with the door open, sometimes she came out, sometimes she didn't, the table had enough random stuff on it for her to sniff and be interested in but no where decent for her to hide (I've found good hiding spots can exacerbate a rat's feeling of fear). As for this kind of approach working with your girl, it all hinges on the theory that she is scared (remove the fear and she'll stop making such a mess)...if the tail is the source of the problem, I'm out of ideas (but very curious to hear what others have to say).

(While she is still a messy rat, you could give them their food in a hopper 
http://australianratforum.com/forum/showthread.php?6532-Vella-Rat-amp-Mouse-Cubes
scroll down to brokenpuzzle's post for the relevant image)


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## CtayTheDumbo (Nov 24, 2010)

I managed to get her to come out of the cage door today and was able to fuss her head, but then she turned, tail touched my hand and out came that awful scream. Rat screams are one of the sounds that really go through me. Rats never really scream, my bucks do it sometimes at bathtime until they've been in the water a couple of minutes, then they swim up & down till they want to get out, & crawl onto my arm, they're SO well trained it's unreal, I didn't even have to make much of an effort with them.

I was worried the tail had somehow become damaged, but there is no sign of damage, and she moves it around fine, allows other rats to touch it and has no issue with using it for balence when she's out, she will swing it around when she's climbing with no trouble.

My largest buck, Eddie (named after Eddie Vedder) lol, will wash his tail, this is as I understand quite rare, rats tend not to give much of a toss about their tails, I do wash the tail as part of bathing them, but it's not an issue for the others, just this little girl.

I do have to bathe her because of the mess she makes, this is a time fraught with the most ear splitting screams, I have tried just to use a wet towel on her to clean faeces from her fur, but this still results in her going manic in my hand, obviously because of me touching her tail, and she has to be wrapped in the towel to prevent her falling from my hands. I have tried leaving her but it is number one on any pet owners list not to leave their pets covered in their own excrement, and I can't bring myself to do it, that would be neglect.

I have had to bathe the other rats outside of their normal swim times too, as they have been urinated and deficated on from the top of the cage by this one. I was sat on the desktop PC up there the other night when my friend had my laptop for repairs, and I watched her go right up on the bars, then releive herself right over the bed area, so I was cleaning rats out at 1am, which wasn't much fun.

I have had to remove a hammock from their cage too, as it became encrusted in mess & stunk the place out.

I might try thr yogert idea, I already give my rats yogert, so it won't be too hard. Mine also like porrige oats with water (not milk, bad for rats), and they will lick that off my fingers or off a spoon, spoon for this one as she accidentally bites while trying to snatch food. 

I am wondering if the tail is some kind of nerve issue, making her tail supersensitive, but then why only to human contact, why not when the other rats touch it? Their tails are thick skin & scaley, I can't see them beign THAT sensitve, but then again each rat is different.

She is quite a small rat, the smallest rat I own apart from the youngsters, my bucks dwarf her, Eddie is the size of a small cat lol, he is that 'nightmare rat', but this one, Mia her name is, is quite small. Kim, her Siamese cagemate is larger than her, at about a quarter more.

Could it be her size, maybe she feels more threatened and the tail being behind her, she might be afraid of being hurt, a bit like you should never stand behind a horse maybe?


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

her pain when something or someone touches her tail, points to a physical problem. I would take her to a good rattie vet.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Had another idea regarding modifying the environment to accommodate Mia's eccentricities....as she is relieving herself from any location within the cage including the upper levels, are you able to cover the platforms so waste can't fall through? I got a couple of boys who had spent their whole lives living on wire and had no concept of picking a corner and sticking to it. While they were in the wire cage, I took to covering the bars of every floor with news paper, this didn't stop them from pooing upstairs but it did stop it from falling/ down onto whatever lay below (....conversely, you could try making the bed the highest thing in the cage). 

Another thing I found with one of the boys was, when I moved him to my freshly converted grotto and supplied him with a litter tray in one corner and stuck his bed in the other, he did actually start to use the it (I think this is in part to do with rats picking and sticking to a spot and in part, my sneaky trick of making every other corner an unappealing place to go by filling them with beds and such).

I took the liberty of posting a link to this thread on my local forum and have been getting some interesting responses... http://australianratforum.com/forum/showthread.php?7830-Really-weird-rat-problem...

from these I'm prompted to ask what do you feed her? (When the boys came to me, they were being fed, among other things, prunes...they had poo on their tails, it's the first time I've ever seen that. No more prunes, firmer stools and they have grotty tails no more).

Is it possible she suffered a traumatic experience at a young age and now associates humans and tails with bad things?

Also, does she seem happy in the company of other rats? (In response to the suggestion that she may need to be put to sleep, I would only be considering that as an option if she seemed really unhappy all of the time.....)

I agree that while you are trying to mellow her out, perhaps putting her and her favourite friend in a separate cage would be helpful, especially if the cage is single story.

Would it be possible/would you mind sharing some video footage of typical Mia behaviour? 

That is really good that she came up and let you pet her head


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

1a1a said:


> I took the liberty of posting a link to this thread on my local forum and have been getting some interesting responses... http://australianratforum.com/forum/showthread.php?7830-Really-weird-rat-problem...


interesting responses, indeed... really sad to see there are people out there that still think it's okay to just euthanize an animal because they cannot deal with its problems. my own mother is one of them, as well.

i could also understand it being caused by some traumatic experience from earlier in her life... my boy ben is like that as well. happy as a clam, as long as you don't touch him or try to pick him up. if you do, he screams like you're stabbing him lol. other than that, it may be a neurological issue, which in that case, there's not much you can do but keep her comfortable.

the defecating/urinating is a sign of fear... the rest, like the flinging food, is relatively normal. the swaying is probably caused by poor eyesight - does she have red/ruby eyes, by chance?

if she's relatively happy in the company of other rats, just let her live out her days with them, adjust the cage so it's easy to clean, and don't further stress her out attempting to socialize.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I met someone who told me she had a horse put down for bucking. Disgusting. She told me MY horse should get put down because he's bitten, reared, bucked, and kicked since I've had him and is agressive sometimes. REALLY? He's a valuable animal, a friend, and an excellent showhorse. You would not believe the way he can jump! To kill him would be cruel and a waste.

I would guess your little girl was picked up by her tail at some point and she thinks it will happen again. If she were mine I'd force her to deal with it and treat her whenever I touched it, but that sort of forced socialising can be nerve wracking especially with screamers.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

How are you and Mia doing?

In other news, at different times, both my rescue boys pooed on my shoulder today, in my hair ..... ewwwwww. Not nice at all.


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