# Only eating baby food, not drinking, VERY active, feeling around... I'm so confused?!



## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Hello, and thank you for reading. This is a LONG post, as I started posting on rattit with little luck. I'll break down the info from oldest to newest, and I have the NEWEST in bold - which has what is happening RIGHT NOW and is in a simple format. It's towards the bottom, *NEWEST *in bold, if you don't feel like reading the whole thing. Our little one is 20 - 22 mo old. Oh, one more thing to mention, everyone in my family is highly allergic to the pollen, etc. this Spring. More so than years past, and I wonder if this can be part of her issue, too. 


*Oldest:*


_I know that no one here is a veterinarian (probably) and my wife and I have a scheduled appointment for May 3rd, which is a bit of a long wait, but luckily this is the one place that will see our ratty girl.

_
_Before I get started, I want to mention that I have extreme anxiety, to the point of taking medication for this. I overreact a lot, about everything, and that's one reason why I'm coming to a place with other ratty parents. Right. Here's what is going on:

_
_My wife and I have a rat who is around 20 - 22 mo old. She used to be very vicious, but we've given her loads of love and have taught her that we're her family, and she's a total sweetie. Ever since she's been a lone rat, she's completely blossomed. I don't know if that is good, or bad, but she doesn't seem to like to share her cage whatsoever.

_
_Moving on, because that isn't important in this case (I don't think) - So, yes, 20 - 22 mo. I noticed that anything white in her cage gets quite a lot of either blood or porphyrin. I cannot imagine this is blood, because I would see something and this has been going on for a while. The first time I panicked, until I did some research.

_
_She's been very active, more so than usual. She's been coming up to her cage for attention, and gets some all day long. She enjoys sitting on my shoulder, exploring safe areas, and eating treats (cucumber is her favorite)._
_
For the last week or so, she's been getting one eye that has more porphyrin than the other, as in I've literally seen 'red tears'. Once she's up and cleaned herself off, she's fine for the most part. I have heard a sneeze or two, I think when she's grooming. Speaking of grooming, she's always scratched a lot, which maybe is where more of the red is coming from? I've heard she might have dry skin, which is possible, especially where we live in the desert. I give her a little bread with olive oil, and that does seem to help._
_
Second, she is stretching her whole body and will yawn while doing so. This will happen every so often throughout the day._
_
She is avoiding going down each ramp in her cage (she has three). She will try to literally find ANY other way down, which worries me as I don't want her to hurt herself, even though she has good balance._
_
She's been bruxing / chattering more than usual. I'll be sitting on the computer and hear her. I have made sure it's NOT coming from her nose, and I've done the telephone test and she's completely clear._
_
Finally, her teeth seem to be bothering her. Solid foods she'll eat, but she doesn't seem to want to. I've seen them when she's yawning, and they seem fine. She can hold food between both hands, though sometimes she doesn't want to and will just kind of hold with one or try to eat without. But, she CAN and often DOES use both._
_
Now, when she is out? She's a little explorer, like I said. She'll ride on my shoulder, run around my desk, explore the floor, climb on anything she can find, etc._
_
You would probably think she's quite young!_
_
Anyway... That's everything that I can think of. I am extremely open to answering any Qs, giving more info, etc. and as I said, I already have a vet appointment made, it's just a bit far in the future._
_
Thank you for reading._


*First update: *

_After some additional research, I am starting to think she has an eye infection. Almost every sign on this page is what she's going through: http://ratguide.com/health/eyes/eye_infections.php All that she does NOT have is:_
_
Mucopurulent discharge covering the globe of the eye (may be thick white, yellow, sticky, crusty)_
_
Signs of respiratory infection(nasal drainage, breathing issues: labored, rapid, gasping, and wheezing)_
_
Head tilt or ear drainage_
_
I will, of course, keep the vet appointment and in the mean time, try working on the course of action recommended on that page (the cool, and warm, compresses.)_


*NEWEST INFORMATION:*


What she IS doing:

• Eating baby food, every so often, throughout the day

• Pushing her nose around afterwards, I am guessing because it's dirty

• I have tried giving her solids, and she will hold them, (try to) chew them, drop them, (try to) chew them, drop them, and so on.

• When she's doing this, she'll shake her head and quickly start cleaning her face.

• She did, however, manage to eat a tiny piece of carrot, and a noodle. I am giving her very small pieces.

• She is running around her cage like crazy, up and down, all around, it's as if she is looking for something. I did a complete clean, and there was nothing she could have been smelling, etc. Very confused. I would describe this as extreme manic behavior. This will happen no matter where I have her (see the desk mention below.)

• Letting me pick her up, no problem. No squeaking, etc. Will run around me as well, with a bit of a hard time balancing, like she can't see. I've been trying cool compresses on her eye, which has helped a little, but she does NOT enjoy them.

• When I put her on my desk, she goes right back to acting as if she is looking for something. I've had to block off even the area between my desk and the wall, because she will try to squeeze through and there is nothing to support her. It's so confusing.

• Sleeping. Every so often in her igloo, and quite a bit in a corner with her face in the corner. Other times, she's sleeping in a normal ratty position.

• She also has moments of sitting on her igloo, just... Staring, in one direction, at nothing except maybe our other pet.

• "Feeling" around. Careful of each level in her cage. It's as if she is blinded. I don't know if she can see me, either. But she does know where everything is, except for an edge, and she'll feel around like I said. She's SO careful going up and down her levels.

• Grooming herself. She'll nibble / lick / what have you her back, and stomach, sometimes kind of toppling over to get her underside. She'll scratch a bit, but just while grooming.

• CLEAR sound. I've done the telephone test several times, and she sounds perfect. Also, she's stopped bruxing / chattering as much.


*What she is NOT doing:*

• DRINKING. I haven't gotten her to drink. I have tried water in a bottle (she can't seem to find a bottle, even if it's held in front of her). I have tried water in a little bowl, both high and low. I have mixed water with Pedialyte. 
Nothing. In a bowl, she just go splashing through (not on purpose) or sticking her face too far in and shaking her head. I have everything measured, so I know she isn't drinking. My next step will be a syringe.

• Peeing. Not that I've seen. The baby food has water, and I've done the neck "pinch" test and this isn't showing that she's dehydrated. So, this is very confusing.

• Pooping... Kind of. Every so often, she'll drop the smallest pieces. Normally, hers were middle sized. Definitely not as much as she used to, either.

• She still DOES have red eye... tears, I'd call them, but it's been happening less. She has a little staining around her eye, before I clean her, and maybe some on her nose.

• No ear smell, drainage, etc.

• No head tilt.

• No spinning in circles (outside of the RUNNING everywhere, like I said, but it's not in actual circles. It's wall to wall, every side, etc.)

• No playing - but she never has been interested in playing, really. She was enjoying building nests, and stuffing her igloo, etc. but hasn't seemed to be able to / know how to do that.

• No bleeding (except for the bloody looking eye goop, but that's not blood as far as I know.) No scratches that I can see, no bump, etc.

I am just so **** confused. My wife and I think she might be blind, going blind, and or might just be old. We DO STILL HAVE A VET APPOINTMENT. But, of course, they will give me absolutely no information over the phone. 


So, I turn to you all. I just want advice, or even an idea, or Hel, even prayers / warm wishes.


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

My oldest rat is doing pretty similar things, except he does he, just not enough. I feed him baby food every night, and he does still drink. 

Have you checked her teeth? Maybe she isn't eating solid foods or using the water bottle because her teeth hurt or are crooked?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Phantom said:


> My oldest rat is doing pretty similar things, except he does he, just not enough. I feed him baby food every night, and he does still drink.
> 
> Have you checked her teeth? Maybe she isn't eating solid foods or using the water bottle because her teeth hurt or are crooked?


It's very possible. I have a napkin or two in her cage, where she spends a lot of time, to catch anything that may help me figure out what's going on, and there was something that resembled a very small tooth, perfect size, color and hardness. This wasn't her front teeth, they're fine as far as I can tell.

Outside of baby food, I dropped some of her food (Oxbow) in a little bit of water, so they'd get mushy, and put that in her cage. She... Kind of had some. ANYTHING with any actual hardness (even soft, like mush) is hard for her, right now. Her eye has been slightly better. She still isn't drinking, from her bottle or bowl. Bowl wise, she's still fumbling around and stepping in the water, and getting a little confused before moving away. She'll put her nose and mouth to the water, but not drink. I bought some vanilla soy milk, as I've seen a lot of people do that to help get their ratties to drink. Hoping that's work. I also got more baby food, this one with teeny tiny chicken and noodle pieces, just in case she can start chewing them. But it's mostly liquid based. Finally, I bought a dark chocolate bar. It's my last resort for our ratty girl, because I am SO nervous about giving any animal chocolate, since it's poisonous for cats, etc. But I've read everyone does this, with good results. Plus, the rest of the bar goes to my wife. ^_^ 

Our ratty girl is still active, is sleeping right now, and did poop earlier. Still no pee, from what I can see. We're keeping a close eye on her, giving her all that she can eat (I also got a cucumber, her favorite food, which I'll turn to mush), and loving her lots while we wait for the vet appointment.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Can you get us a video of her moving around on a flat non-slippery surface? Maybe offer her a small light treat so we can see her attempt to eat it?My worry is she has PT or pituitary tumor as the symptoms sound familiar, inability to grasp, a confusion, unbalanced etc. Has she ever looked like this while eating?http://lilspazrats.wikispaces.com/H...esponseToken=c028ebde6b8b99fc27d0916864f5f4fd


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Can you get us a video of her moving around on a flat non-slippery surface? Maybe offer her a small light treat so we can see her attempt to eat it?My worry is she has PT or pituitary tumor as the symptoms sound familiar, inability to grasp, a confusion, unbalanced etc. Has she ever looked like this while eating?http://lilspazrats.wikispaces.com/H...esponseToken=c028ebde6b8b99fc27d0916864f5f4fd


I'll try and get a video, though my phone is... horrible. She doesn't like carpeting, etc. and she gets too excited whenever she's on the bed. So getting her to sit still is kind of hard. As for treats, she can't seem to chew them. I've given her baby food, and she is going CRAZY over most of the flavors, especially the kind that's like chicken soup. I put her Oxbow food in water, and once it's mush, she'll eat that right up. Water, she still isn't drinking, but I found that she is addicted to soy milk (I only gave her a little bit, before mixing the soy with water.) She'll drink, but it's as if she can't see the liquid in front of her, because she'll keep sticking her nose right in, and splashing with her hands, like she's trying to feel what's there. She still won't drink out of her bottle, either. She isn't unbalanced, and isn't falling over, and will stand up, wash her face with her hands, etc. She is cautious, though, going up and down a ramp or climbing up the bars of her cage. She'll slide a bit when on my shoulder, but she's running from shoulder to shoulder, etc. with little problem. I still haven't seen any pee, yet she isn't dehydrated from the skin tent / pinch test, and she is drinking but doing so while getting her whole nose wet, and splashing. She also is NOT drinking straight water. She's sleeping the same amount of time as usual, and I don't believe she's lost weight. I plan on trying to measure her soon. She is still running about her cage, and my desk. I don't know if it's confusion. It's like she is searching for something. 

*Breaking all of this down for easier reading:
*
• She still isn't chewing, but will eat baby food, mush, and the softest of treats. 
• She won't drink straight water, but she will drink soy milk with water.
• She is getting her nose wet, and splashing with her hands.
• She can sit up, clean her face, etc. without falling over.
• She is cautious, and a bit... Slide-y, but not quite unbalanced. She's walking straight, etc.
• I see NO pee, which is so confusing, as she is drinking the soy milk and water, and doesn't show a sign of being dehydrated. She is pooping. It's been a bit on the softer, lighter side, and I am guessing that is from the baby food.
• She's like... Searching for something. She'll run around, and on my desk, she won't stop trying to get to the blocked off area (fish tank tubes!) She's done this forever.
• Her schedule isn't any different, and I believe she hasn't gained or lost weight.

So... That's my update, for now.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh, and I did give her a soft treat and she did sit up, and hold the treat while she tried to nibble (the nibbling was the problem). She did drop part once, and then just used one hand, before finishing the whole thing.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Have you gotten a video yet?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Have you gotten a video yet?


I'm getting one tonight, once my phone is charged. I tried taking one before hand, but she ran off with the treat and then my phone died. ;.;

Today, she has peed - twice - very, very large amount so whatever she was holding in has come out. She's also continuing pooping. Still no solid foods, and if she tries to eat solid, she grinds her teeth / starts bruxing. But only when trying to eat them. My wife and I are disabled, and home almost 24/7. We left so I could get her Ensure, and our rabbit rabbit food, and came home and she was holding her back foot up. I panicked, as I haven't seen that, but I guess she ripped a nail. There wasn't any blood, and she's moving around quite a bit more now. This little girl.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh, yes, and still no water - from the bottle, or bowl. She will NOT touch straight water, or water with flavored Pedialyte. She will, however, drink water mixed with soy milk, and Pedialyte mixed with soy milk. She will also eat Oxbow filled with water (thrown in, so it's mushy). She's drinking Ensure now. Still eating baby food. 

I cut up cucumber, her fav treat, as best as I could and she couldn't chew that. Same with carrot. I just don't know, unless it's her teeth.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

She is probably getting enough liquid through her mushy food so you can throw that out as a symptom.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Hello, here's a bit of an update. (I still haven't gotten a video, I am very sorry. I am working with my phone, and my ratty girl. I think I may be able to get her to sit still with a pea! We'll see.) So, Taki still hasn't had any falling over, etc. She can stand up, clean her face, etc. and she held a piece of treat, and a whole pea. The only problem was as she bit the pea, she started grinding her teeth and couldn't do anything but dent the outside. Once I broke the outside, and gave her the food, she ate up.

When she gets up, she'll stumble a little, but is then right back on her feet like normal. She's still cautious around any edge, or ramp. My wife and I took her to the vet yesterday, and he weighed her and said that she is quite thin, but not malnourished. He said that we're taking perfect care of her, with the baby food, and other foods and hydration. He put her on the table, which she carefully walked around, and he said she may be going blind, like we thought. He checked her top and bottom teeth, and said that they look great. He couldn't get a look at her back teeth, however he is wondering if it's a jaw issue. I finished explaining everything, and he said that this could be a neurological issue as well. So, outside of the jaw issue, we guessed both of these. I never thought about her jaw being the chewing problem.

He checked her chest, stomach, etc. and said that there is nothing there to worry about. 

He held her, and said she didn't scamper about, making him think again that she might be going blind. She was so good while he held her! He told us to bring her home, and keep doing what we're doing. He's going to call tomorrow, Monday, to see how she is doing. He wanted to send us home with antibiotics and a steroids, but they cost more than we expected. We're so thankful we had the money to bring her in, at least. I have started up a GoFundMe for the medication, and am also working with family to see if there is anything they can do. They're both retired, and my wife and I are disabled, and there's been a bit of a money decrease lately, so we're having a hard time. All of our money goes for our babies.

I'm hoping we can get her medication as soon as possible. The vet said, he may keep her over a weekend or so and watch her himself, see what she's doing and how. We'll see if he has to do that. Also, yes, he is an exotic vet and has seen rats, and has great review comments.

Finally, some updated info on Taki herself:

• She's still active, running around her cage, going up on her igloo (but slipping a bit), playing with homemade toys, etc.

• She is eating baby food, applesauce, homemade original (no added spice, etc.) oatmeal, mashed pea, Ensure, etc. She is, however, still having a hard time with water. If it's in a bowl, she'll stick her whole face in and just can't seem to drink without the water going up her nose. So, she's avoiding that. 

• We bought a baby syringe, spoon, and dropper and she's having a hard time drinking with all of them. The syringe, she'll just kind of spit out the water. The dropper, she'll try to catch as much as she can, so we've been using that the most. The spoon, she'll have the same problem as the bowl. As for her water bottle, she'll grab the cage bars and try to lick the ball, with no luck. We're working on setting up a constant drip, hoping even if she can't see the bottle, she can catch the droplets. 

• Of course, the baby food, etc. is as watery as possible. She'll get some on her face, hands, etc. and have to clean herself, and we're helping her with that too. She got a bit of a sponge bath, and she's even more active afterwards.

• She is pooping, small amounts / pieces. Not as often as usual. She is peeing, it's clear, and again, it's not as often as usual but she is going.

• She'll stick the bottom of her jaw out a bit sometimes, and she's grinding her teeth a lot. I don't know if it's bruxing or not. Sometimes, her whole head will shake / jitter. The rest of her is fine. This is often when she's first waking up.

• She is favoring her left hand, quite a bit. But she does use this hand while walking, with no problem. There aren't any scratches, sores, etc. on that hand or arm.

• Her right eye isn't producing as much red as before, but is still puffier. The eye itself is still the same color as it's been since we adopted her.

• Ever since the vet visit, she's been eating a bit less. Unsure why. She didn't seem stressed on the way there, while there, or coming back.

• We've noticed a bit of fur around her cage, a tiny clump here and there. This has never happened before, as far as we've seen and we've kept a close eye on her since we adopted her.

That's everything for now. It's a lot of information, but I believe the more the better. Can GoFundMe be shared here, or is that breaking a rule?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Have you got to a vet so you know for sure if there is something wrong with her teeth?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Have you got to a vet so you know for sure if there is something wrong with her teeth?


Hi, Gribouilli. I mentioned in my post that yes, we took her to a vet, that is an exotic vet and has seen rats. He didn't look in the back, but checked her top and bottom. (I know my post was long, so you probably missed that! I'm sorry.)


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Taki was on her second ramp, cleaning herself, and toppled over while reaching for her lower half. She fell forward, grabbed the underside of her shelf, and then fell down to the bottom. She was fine for a little while, and then started walking around with a left side limp. I don't know how she landed. Where she already isn't feeling well, I am extremely worried. Outside of the limp, she's having a bit of a hard time climbing. I took down the ramp to her second level, so she decided to just climb the cage wall, which I think is even more dangerous!

She was eating and drinking. I'm looking up a place to go donate plasma, if they'll take me (I am on many meds.) She kind of fell over in her igloo just now, and is twitching. I have my wife watching her while I continue finding information about plasma donation.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

My wife watched her, said she's sleeping right now, not twitching, etc. and not on her side. I'm going to be petting Taki and watching her, while calling about the plasma donation.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Called about donating plasma, 2hrs for $50. Do I go, or stay with her? Do I let her sleep right now, or try and hold her? She licked applesauce from my finger before going back to sleep. She normally doesn't perk up until it's a little later in the day, so this amount of sleep is normal for her. Emergency vet will not let me just come in, or pay in a few hours / later.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I made another call, to the vet's office. I said I can go donate blood, which would end around 8PM, and they close 7PM (the vet). They can have the medication available tomorrow, as soon as they open (8AM) for me to pick up for $41. ($40 and some cents.) So, that would still be a whole night worth of no medication. On Saturday, when I saw the vet, he said she seemed fine except for either a jaw problem or a neurological problem, but that she was in great care and we are doing everything right. The receptionist said he'll call me, to talk about her fall, as I am worried that this is a mix of her issue before and the fall, though my wife is thinking it's the issue beforehand that's causing this, especially as she's been keeping a close eye on her as well. I doubt this, but does anyone here live in Utah that has antibiotics and steroids (both oral)?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

At the moment, Taki ate a whole bunch of her food, drank water, walked up my arm and shoulders, etc. so I'm a little less worried. Don't misunderstand, I am still getting her medication, etc. but right now, now that it's later in the day, she's acting more like her regular self. We'll be keeping a very close eye on her.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

REALLY quick update. Went to the vet, who prescribed Taki "*Prednisone" and "Baytril". She took both without any issue! She was doing extremely horrible this morning, showing every walking sign of PT, etc. Right now, she's showing just a left side limp. *


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> REALLY quick update. Went to the vet, who prescribed Taki "*Prednisone" and "Baytril". She took both without any issue! She was doing extremely horrible this morning, showing every walking sign of PT, etc. Right now, she's showing just a left side limp. *


That's wonderful. I'm happy to hear she is doing so much better. Did the vet found out exactly what was wrong with her?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Did they give her a steroid injection while she was there? Dexamethasone can show wonderful improvements really quickly.
You realize she will need to stay on steroids (and the baytril because of the immune system depression of steroids) for the rest of her life?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Did they give her a steroid injection while she was there? Dexamethasone can show wonderful improvements really quickly.
> You realize she will need to stay on steroids (and the baytril because of the immune system depression of steroids) for the rest of her life?


No, the vet never did call back either, which I am extremely upset about. To be honest, I'll be calling them and writing a review as well, about our visits. (This one was just the receptionist.) Of course I realize that. The bottle reads just to give her two doses daily (of each) until the bottle is empty, no call back, etc. but obviously, I will.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I think prednisone is most effective once a day. Let me check ratguide.

Do you have a concentration on the bottle (mg/ml)? And a weight on your girl?

OK suggests SID (once a day) but says can be given every 12 hours.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> That's wonderful. I'm happy to hear she is doing so much better. Did the vet found out exactly what was wrong with her?


I'm hoping she will continue getting better. She's only had one dose of each so far, and a bit of her food (banana and mixed berries, which I don't think is a favorite, haha). We just want to see her as happy and as healthy as she can be. My wife and I just want to do everything we possibly can for her.

The vet didn't see her again. He said to give her the medication, and unless she gets worse, to finish the medication and let him know how she's doing. I'm not impressed. The clinic has great review comments, better than others. The receptionist truly cares, and asked me to keep her updated, which I will do. If we need to take Taki into another vet, we'll take her to a different vet. 

Anyway, thank you for the warm response. Here's hoping she'll feel better. I know the meds can take a while to fully kick in, and we're watching for any issues she may have with them. She's sleeping right now, which is usual for her until about 7 PM or 8 PM when she's more perky. I don't want to wake her up constantly, she needs her rest, you know? I have lots of baby food for her, for later, as well as nutritious drink, and water from a dropper that she's been taking. Thank you, again!


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Taki is doing better with her medication, though she is acting more blind than she was before. Especially with finding and eating food (she will eat, but she's definitely following her nose and feeling around more). She has stood up and shaken her head a few times. I'm not quite sure why. I will continue watching her to see what's going on, and make sure it's not a bigger problem. She is still having the problem cleaning her lower half, which has been a problem since before we went to the vet. She is also trying to do so A LOT. When she's grooming, she focuses strongly on that area, and I do the best I can to prop her so she can clean herself. If I wipe her down (baby food = messy), she'll still clean herself after. She prefers to do so.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh, and she dug a hole in one corner... One hole, that she has been digging and digging, though it's to the bottom? There's no food, etc. there, and since she's on a liquid diet right now, nothing to hide. I'm quite confused.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

She decided that she wouldn't eat ANYTHING... Except her favorite oatmeal, mixed with water and soy milk. My wife and I turned her cage into one level, and have her hammock down flat like a big blanket (note: she's never even liked the hammock, but we figured it's a soft, safe place to rest if she wants, without her being able to fall.) She's decided that going underneath, like it's SERIOUSLY a big blanket, is extremely comfy. So I put a dish towel in, and she'll go through like it's a tunnel, or ruffle about. Getting more safe fabrics for her to do so. She's never been one to play with a toy, but fabrics are her thing, and if she is going blind or is blind, like we think, maybe it's the perfect amount of texture for her, and her whiskers can easily feel the width and movement, etc.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> She decided that she wouldn't eat ANYTHING... Except her favorite oatmeal, mixed with water and soy milk. My wife and I turned her cage into one level, and have her hammock down flat like a big blanket (note: she's never even liked the hammock, but we figured it's a soft, safe place to rest if she wants, without her being able to fall.) She's decided that going underneath, like it's SERIOUSLY a big blanket, is extremely comfy. So I put a dish towel in, and she'll go through like it's a tunnel, or ruffle about. Getting more safe fabrics for her to do so. She's never been one to play with a toy, but fabrics are her thing, and if she is going blind or is blind, like we think, maybe it's the perfect amount of texture for her, and her whiskers can easily feel the width and movement, etc.


Maybe her teeth aren't very good anymore, it happens with older rats. Or maybe she knows she will get the oatmeal, rats are very smart. You could try to soften her Oxbow food with water and mix it 50/50 with the oatmeal and see if she eats it. There is a baby strawberry/banana oatmeal that my rats LOVE- it has lots of vitamins/minerals in it. Also baby soy formula is usually liked by rats- it adds lots of nutrition. Good luck, and thanks for the update


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Also Ensure, the elderly drink is great for extra nutrition. I used to mix it with baby foods or baby oatmeal for extra nutrition for a sick rat.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Also Ensure, the elderly drink is great for extra nutrition. I used to mix it with baby foods or baby oatmeal for extra nutrition for a sick rat.


I'm not sure if you read my above posts, but we do think there is something with her teeth, yes. She cannot chew hard food, etc. I mentioned before that we have had her eat Oxbow mixed with water, making a mush, which she did have for a while. Baby foods of all sorts, from 'meals' to fruits, and so on. Ensure, definitely. Soy milk, by itself and with water, applesauce. I tried, lately, the Oxbow with water and later with soy milk, Oxbow with oatmeal and either water or soy milk, applesauce, all kinds of baby foods, soy milk by itself, etc. and she wanted absolutely none of that.

So, I tried the oatmeal mixed with water and soy milk only, for now, and she loved that. Later, I'll try adding more Oxbow bit by bit. Really, whatever she can fill her tummy with, and enjoy, is good. 

Plus, trying new foods (I plan on trying different flavored oatmeal, for instance, and I'm getting cucumber - her favorite food, but she can't even chew the wateriest part - to make into an EXTREME mash), is good. Especially so she doesn't get bored with them. She gets bored with food quite easily! She had her meds, slept a little bit, ate, and is sleeping again. Evening was the best time for her, and now it's afternoon. I don't know if she prefers the daylight or what, but whenever she is happy and feeling good, so are we!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Of course, sorry. I'm tired today, lol. Not sure if I or someone else mentions it but warming baby food a little helps. As well as adding a chocolate chip or a little peanut butter mixed in baby food or oatmeal if she was to start refusing it too. That is what I did in the last days when my rat was sick- never refused her food again


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Of course, sorry. I'm tired today, lol. Not sure if I or someone else mentions it but warming baby food a little helps. As well as adding a chocolate chip or a little peanut butter mixed in baby food or oatmeal if she was to start refusing it too. That is what I did in the last days when my rat was sick- never refused her food again


Warming does seem to help, especially the meal types. Oh! About peanut butter, I've seen people mention that and maple syrup being added to food or to be licked, but I know on other posts, people have said both are bad and can be caught in the rat's throat? So, is the latter based on how much you give them (like a huge amount)? 'cause I think peanut butter would be wonderful for her to lick on.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Use SMOOTH peanut butter, no added salt. Now for the choking potential of PB, it won't happen if you mix some in the warm baby food or oatmeal. That being said, rats can choke on absolutly everything, but in 99.9% of the cases it is nothing serious. One of my rat choke on her Oxbow two weeks ago- it took her 10 mins to get it out of her throat. If you want her to lick on peanut butter, spread a thin layer of it on a plate that way she won't be able to get enough in her throat to choke on it. Rats who choke on peanut butter have a mouth full of it- licking it off a plate will prevent that.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Use SMOOTH peanut butter, no added salt. Now for the choking potential of PB, it won't happen if you mix some in the warm baby food or oatmeal. That being said, rats can choke on absolutly everything, but in 99.9% of the cases it is nothing serious. One of my rat choke on her Oxbow two weeks ago- it took her 10 mins to get it out of her throat. If you want her to lick on peanut butter, spread a thin layer of it on a plate that way she won't be able to get enough in her throat to choke on it. Rats who choke on peanut butter have a mouth full of it- licking it off a plate will prevent that.


Thank you so much! I'll definitely try both. I guess I've been lucky with her and not choking throughout the last 1+. Possibly because I cut up everything so small, haha. I worry... a lot.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

And by thin layer I mean really thin layer, you should be barely able to see it.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> And by thin layer I mean really thin layer, you should be barely able to see it.


Will do!

Also, (sorry for all of the Qs, you're just so helpful) Taki will lick her lower half a lot. The vet (I can't seem to tell if he was a good or bad one, said exotic, said he has treated rats, but yeah) said he didn't feel anything around her underside, so could this just be her trying to groom herself? It's a bit frantic, but she can't quite reach and will go over on her back and try to do a sit up, basically. (This is the only time she's on her back, BTW. I know that's a different symptom). I've checked, and she's all clean, so I'm a bit worried. It's her tummy and lower, until she gets to her tail, which she doesn't seem to care about in the frantic cleaning way.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> Will do!Also, (sorry for all of the Qs, you're just so helpful) Taki will lick her lower half a lot. The vet (I can't seem to tell if he was a good or bad one, said exotic, said he has treated rats, but yeah) said he didn't feel anything around her underside, so could this just be her trying to groom herself? It's a bit frantic, but she can't quite reach and will go over on her back and try to do a sit up, basically. (This is the only time she's on her back, BTW. I know that's a different symptom). I've checked, and she's all clean, so I'm a bit worried. It's her tummy and lower, until she gets to her tail, which she doesn't seem to care about in the frantic cleaning way.


Many rats don't care much about grooming their tail, lol. If it gets dirty a little warm water and soft tooth brush will work well. I think she is simply trying to groom herself. If the vet didn't feel anything and you don't see anything out of the ordinary including self-barbering, I wouldn't worry. Just keep an eye on it- but I'm sure you already do


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I tried some oatmeal with Oxbow crushed in, which she didn't care for - will try again later. But! I did make oatmeal with sweet potato (and turkey) baby food stirred in, and water, and she LOVED that. Ate more than we've seen her eat in a while. My mother-in-law made strawberry shortcake, and I realized... Strawberries. So I got a little piece, and broke that down into an even smaller piece, and she did eat from my finger as best she could. She did teeth grind after, which made me feel so bad, but she did seem to love the strawberry! I only gave her a few little pieces. Like I said, tomorrow will be cucumber, and I also plan on banana and carrot. Not baby food, but actual fruits and such broken down.

It's just... That teeth grinding. Even the softest foods. My wife and I feel so bad. She does seem to want them, and she does make clear what she does and doesn't want. But, I'd say this grinding is pain - and not a happy brux. Is there anything I can do, when feeding her soft foods that require chewing, to help lessen the pain? (From what I read, she cannot have any pain medication like Asprin, etc. while on Prednisone.)


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

I'll admit that I've not been following every bit of this thread, but here's my mash mix for when they aren't eating well:

1ml Pure (Real) Maple Syrup
1/2-3/4 cup of Oxbow RR - whole pieces
1/4 cup of cooked strawberry instant oatmeal
1 cup water, room temp. 

I dump the dry Oxbow into the water and nuke it for about three minutes, then mash it down with a fork. Then I mix in the blueberry or strawberry oatmeal and a dash of Maple Syrup. (Which my vet recommended. Hey, we're in Vermont!)

I don't really measure the amounts, but this is a rough estimate. I don't use this often because of the high sugar content, but it's a big hit when I need it. You can also buy HT in powder form, so if you see yourself doing this long-term, that might be easier than grinding the Oxbow.

And you can mix half a banana to smoothen out the peanut butter. Makes great dog Popsicles as well.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You can try baby liquid ibuprofen. I use the Walgreens brand mixed berries. I only had to give it to 1 rat so far (sprained foot) but she absolutely LOVED IT. If you take care of the pain she will eat more, I'm sure.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> I'll admit that I've not been following every bit of this thread, but here's my mash mix for when they aren't eating well:
> 
> 1ml Pure (Real) Maple Syrup
> 1/2-3/4 cup of Oxbow RR - whole pieces
> ...


This sounds like something she'd like, and the Oxbow mashed with everything else (strawberry oatmeal, and maple syrup - because I think she'd like a different oatmeal flavor) might help. Her fav food, that wasn't a veggie or fruit, was her Oxbow, so I'd love to get her interested in that again. Right now, since she had the oatmeal and I'd like her to get a bit more liquid, I put some applesauce in her dish with fresh strawberry juice squeezed in. She ate applesauce for a while, before getting bored with the same flavor, and I don't believe ratties can have cinnamon.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> You can try baby liquid ibuprofen. I use the Walgreens brand mixed berries. I only had to give it to 1 rat so far (sprained foot) but she absolutely LOVED IT. If you take care of the pain she will eat more, I'm sure.


I'll check! I think she can't have anything like that while on Prednisone. But, if so, the liquid form may really, really help so I don't have to try and crush some in (I can imagine the powder tastes horrible. I know my own pills do, on their own, lol.)


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I know I've been posting, and replying, a lot in this thread, but... This is so, so very important to my wife and I, to our little ratty, so I hope you all don't mind.

Every so often, she will stand up and shake her head (not the sway to try to see better). Every so often, she will scratch in her ear. I see nothing wrong, and smell nothing wrong, so this might just be cleaning them like usual. Finally, every so often, she will spasm in her sleep. She'll go on her side, if she isn't already, and just kind of spasm around. We'll pet her, and she rests easily again or move around a bit. This started before her medicine started.

It's confusing, because there is so much going on. I know what the Baytril treats, same with Prednisone, and both cover most of what these can be from, I believe. When I go through ratguide, and see the lists, I can pick out some parts from different lists. So, I don't know if it's one or more, though if so, I believe the meds cover both, like I said above.

Part of me is feeling extremely bad. Like I'm keeping her around longer, without her wanting me to do so. She's going through so very much, and I want her to feel better for HER sake, have a happier, healthier time, for at least a little longer. My wife and I are doing our best, to give her the best care we can. But, she can't tell us what she wants. Does she WANT me to keep trying to feed her all of this? She eats the oatmeal, and some baby food, so that's good, I think. Does she want to drink? That's the part she's denying the most, so I make sure everything has a lot of liquid. The list goes on. I want her to be happier and healthier for her sake, but this might NOT be making her happy, or healthy. I'd much prefer her to be in a good place mentally and hopefully physically and emotionally, if she does pass on. I'm not quitting yet, as she's enjoying some food I do give her, she is getting liquids, and she's enjoying her fabrics. Plus, the medicine. She's only been on this since Tuesday, and it's early Friday morning. I believe most meds don't even start to really kick in until the 3-day mark.

Please don't mind my rambling.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

just checked up about prednisone on ratguide, and it only seems to be nsaids (like ibuprofen, metacam, and apparantly asprin) than need to be avoided. here's a page that lists other pain meds http://ratguide.com/meds/analgesics/
i've seen tramadol mentioned here, so perhaps you could talk to the vet about that as a pain relief option, if you're concerned she's in pain.
i'm sorry you and her are having to deal with this. does she have a proper diagnosis yet? with the prednisone i'd guess you're thinking pituitary tumor? if so, i was looking on the ratguide page (link) and i see it suggests another medication i hadn't heard of before to reduce tumor size; cabergoline or bromocriptine, cabergoline sounding like the better of the two (link). idk if your vet would be able/willing to prescribe it, but it could be worth a shot to try if you think it could help.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

One of the symptoms of PT is losing the ability to chew, their teeth sometimes will grow crooked as they are bruxxing awkwardly now and it grinds them down unevenly. Sometimes they forget how to lick so you have to syringe feed them. I have done this multiple times now waiting for their treatment to kick in


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You can grind up Oxbow with a coffee grinder add a TON of water and she has her balanced diet again in a form she can eat. If this is PT, it looks terrible but it's not a painful condition so she probably doesn't need pain meds. The pred will hopefully shrink the tumor pressing on her brain causing the symptoms. I prefer injectable Dex (either given subcutaneously or orally) as it's faster and lasts longer. Did we already double-check your pred dose to make sure it's high enough to show improvement? I prefer 1 mg/kg.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> You can grind up Oxbow with a coffee grinder add a TON of water and she has her balanced diet again in a form she can eat. If this is PT, it looks terrible but it's not a painful condition so she probably doesn't need pain meds. The pred will hopefully shrink the tumor pressing on her brain causing the symptoms. I prefer injectable Dex (either given subcutaneously or orally) as it's faster and lasts longer. Did we already double-check your pred dose to make sure it's high enough to show improvement? I prefer 1 mg/kg.


Thank you for letting me know! I have ground up the Oxbow, but she doesn't seem to like the taste with water. Is there something else that I can add? Pedialyte she wasn't fond of either. I've been trying to think of liquid that is lighter, to hopefully get her on water again. By lighter, I mean no soy milk or Ensure (not that both, especially the latter, aren't great! I just would love her to be able to drink straight up water again, if possible. Unless that's not needed?) The Prednisone is 0.1 mls twice daily, and the Baytril is 0.2 mls twice daily.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I LOVE ratguide, but get lost sometimes. I've heard of cabergoline and bromocriptine, but so far the vet just has her on Prednisone and Baytril. I'll see what I can find out from his office. I'm not sure how expensive those are. I've used up everything to get her in for the exam, and to get her meds, but like I said a long time ago in this thread, I'm more than willing to go donate plasma (gets me $50 per time) and have a GoFundMe page up!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pure Coconut water (must say NOT from concentrated) is super light and full of electrolytes. My rats liked it. I added it to the baby food, cereals...anything she would eat because she wasn't drinking by herself.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Pure Coconut water (must say NOT from concentrated) is super light and full of electrolytes. My rats liked it. I added it to the baby food, cereals...anything she would eat because she wasn't drinking by herself.


I didn't even think of that! Okay, that's on my shopping list. Thank you!

This morning, my wife and I woke up because of a HUGE boom from a storm going on, and when I stood up, Taki was looking around from under her covers. She's definitely more alert today. I picked her up and held her for a while, and I noticed that - *new, as of this morning - her nose (only nose - I did the telephone test) will sometimes make a clicking noise or 'squeak' when she's breathing.* This hasn't happened before, and I hold her daily, and listen to her daily. Could this be another problem? I know I've read about this on the forum, ratguide, etc. but it's strange to have while on Baytril, I would think? I know her little nose gets a bit dirty from eating and liquids, but she and I both do a decent job cleaning her off. I'm bolding the issue, since I'm rambling again.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

She is on Baytril and prednisone, right? Any other meds right now?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> She is on Baytril and prednisone, right? Any other meds right now?


No, only those two. They were all that were prescribed. I have amoxicillin, from a previous pet visit for a doggy, and I can open a capsule and follow the recommended dosage for rats her size (I can call the vet and get her precise size, if needed) and give her that. But, I have absolutely NO idea if this would interfere with her other medication, or if it's even something you and others would recommend. Just throwing out what I have. I also have children's Benadryl, if that'd help anything. This is the same as what I said about the amox.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Can you remind me why she is on prednisone?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Can you remind me why she is on prednisone?


When my wife and I brought Taki into the vet, I gave him a list of what was going on with her. Simplified, was: 

Increased activity (not a bad thing, as far as I know. Just, extra playful, running around, etc.)

*More than usual porphyrin around one eye (right eye) with swelling
*Started sitting on her igloo, or up in a corner of her cage, staring off into space (note: no sign of seizure)
*Having a hard time chewing, and couldn't even chew something soft like cucumber (I cut off the skin, took out the seeds, etc.)
*Having a hard time holding food, but she still could for the most part
*Started acting like she was having a very hard time seeing, and was very very cautious going up and down a ramp, etc.
*Stretching whole body and yawning while doing so. She does this a lot. I'm still not sure if this is just a stretch and yawn or something else.
*Bruxing and chattering a LOT, and loudly
*
*I mentioned how she wasn't eating anything but the softest foods, and wasn't into drinking water. She couldn't 'see' the bowl, I thought and still do. She'd stick her whole nose in, sneeze, do the same thing, sneeze, but wouldn't actually drink. She cannot seem to see her water bottle, but she can hear the sound, same with a bowl. She can't see food, but if she SMELLS food? She goes crazy.

*The vet weighed her, held her up to the light, said her eye was swollen, put her on the table, let her walk around with his hand to the side and said she did seem to maybe be going blind or is blind, held her and checked her front and bottom teeth - said they were fine, felt around her underside and said there was nothing unusual there that he could feel. I told him I thought she might have a PT, and I mentioned a respiratory infection. He didn't really give me any diagnosis, just said to pick up the meds, and let him know by the end of the meds (this set, which is for 10 days), if she's still acting like the above, to let him have her over the weekend to observe. (My wife and I hate that idea, to be honest, but I'll take a second opinion by other ratty families.) 

I'm going to call the vet now, see what her weight is if they can tell me and ask if the vet had an idea of what's going on with her, that he didn't share at the time. He was supposed to call me back, but never did.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Okay, talked with the vet's office. On file, she is 345g weight wise and the vet listed neurological disease / issues, and clinical dehydration(?).


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok I asked because prednisone is an immunosuppressant which might make her more vulnerable to a secondary upper respiratory infection. Not saying that this is what is happening but something to keep in mind. I haven't researched it, but I don't think there is a problem giving prednisone and amoxicillin. I know that amox and Baytril is totally safe, it is often prescribed together.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Ok I asked because prednisone is an immunosuppressant which might make her more vulnerable to a secondary upper respiratory infection. Not saying that this is what is happening but something to keep in mind. I haven't researched it, but I don't think there is a problem giving prednisone and amoxicillin. I know that amox and Baytril is totally safe, it is often prescribed together.


Thank you for letting me know. 

In your opinion, was this vet one that didn't do a very good job? Because more and more, and with the lack of a phone call back, I just feel like... He didn't.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> Thank you for letting me know. In your opinion, was this vet one that didn't do a very good job? Because more and more, and with the lack of a phone call back, I just feel like... He didn't.


I don't know. It is impossible for me to say.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Did we already double-check your pred dose to make sure it's high enough to show improvement? I prefer 1 mg/kg.


I wanted to quote this again, so I can answer more clearly.

Taki's weight: 345g from the vet's office.
Pred dose: Prednisone Sus 10 mls / lm / ml (?) / 0.1 mls twice daily.

Just for record, and to be sure it's not too much or not enough:
Baytril: Baytril Sus 10 mls 0.2 mls twice daily.

Both of these are exactly as written on the bottles.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I made her her cucumber mush (like, fine fine mush, like applesauce). She gobbled some up, started teeth grinding, moved, and started scratching her cheek / jaw. 

Oh, I forgot to mention, I was reading another thread on either PT or respiratory infection, and one symptom that is common is stretching front hands stiffly out in front of themselves, and she doesn't do that. She also doesn't roll, or head tilt. Well, she'll roll, but only when she loses her balance a bit. I'm charging my phone, to try and get a video again, especially now that I have just the one level in her cage and it's easier to see what she's doing.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The cheerio test is usually the best test for PT diagnosis. I don't remember if you already tried it or not.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> The cheerio test is usually the best test for PT diagnosis. I don't remember if you already tried it or not.


She does her best, but as soon as she even attempts a nibble, she'll drop the piece of Cheerio / etc. I realized that with a piece of cucumber a while back. I tried a pea a little before she went to the vet, and she could hold that, but same problem. She does sometimes try to use one hand, but I believe most of the time it's both, and sitting up. I'll try again tonight, if she doesn't catch on that it's solid, again. Oh, she also doesn't head bump if I touch her head. Just lets me scritch for a moment. I touched one ear, and her head shook a bit, but there's no redness or smell, etc.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

So, while I tried to get a video (...which showed nothing, so it's charging again, as it's a POS) I realized that Taki is a HUGE banana lover. I've given her banana baby food, and pieces, but this time she just wanted more. Anyway. After she had the banana, which she actually didn't HAVE to have mashed, but she did teeth grind, then she ran around a bit before going under her cover to sleep. 

About an hour and a half later, I was on the computer and she is behind us, and I heard something hit her cage. This has happened before, and worried, I headed over and when I arrived, she was like jumping in her sleep under the blanket. I lifted the blanket, and she looked up at me kind of sleepy like. I picked her up and held her for a while, until I was sure she was okay, and then put her back in to go make her a treat. (I realize she's a big fan of mashed banana, a touch of maple syrup, and lots and lots of water - yay, water~!!)

This has happened before. The sound. But normally when I go over there, I just see a twitch or two, not the jumping. But she was definitely sleeping. Thoughts?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I wish I could edit posts without a certain time frame. Something I forgot to mention, and this has been going on for a while, is that every so often she'll stretch (I'd say it's like the Upwards Dog yoga position, back feet out a bit behind her and straight hands) and she'll yawn, before going back to normal. I read somewhere this can be pain? It's not related to the above post I made, but worth mentioning.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

LoveOurBabies said:


> I wanted to quote this again, so I can answer more clearly.
> 
> Taki's weight: 345g from the vet's office.
> Pred dose: Prednisone Sus 10 mls / lm / ml (?) / 0.1 mls twice daily.
> ...


*Just quoting the above, once again. What's below is my update for this morning:
*
Before bed, I noticed that Taki was trying to drink from her water bottle, as I heard the ball move and looked over, and she'd stand up and try to drink or she'd hold the nozzle and try to drink. Well, I think she DID drink. My wife and I have tried to lower to the bottle, both low low and middle low and heck, middle, with no luck. Higher is better, but it's harder for her to reach. But she IS standing up and sipping (hopefully), so that is an improvement. 

My wife and I woke up, as did Taki. She'll wake up with us, usually. While we were sleeping, however, I think she dragged some fabric under her blanket to start a nest. She's a HUGE lover of nesting, they make her feel comfortable, if she can do them herself, so I'm really, really hoping she is doing so. 

I cleaned her a bit while my wife readied Taki's medicine. I kind of cleaned Taki, even though she's doing a good job of keeping herself clean, her little hands and feet get dirty because she'll stick her hands into the liquid / light foods, etc. While I was cleaning her, she was relaxing, and then started cleaning her face. Adorable!

Once she had her medicine, we put her back in her cage, where she went under her blanket. 

A little while after, I chopped up some watermelon, took a very thin piece, and broke that up into three pieces and put them on a napkin. I put them in her cage, and she came out to inspect. She really wanted them... But they weren't mush, so she actually tried to eat them annnnd managed to eat a piece, an actual piece! This was VERY small, and took her a while, but she did a great job. She did teeth grind, but not much. She went under her blanket to relax, after.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

*Idea? Taki's right ear is folded. Towards the top, it's folded back. Just folded loosely, like a piece of paper. I tried to massage her ear, but it's 'stuck' like that. I could move the tip up, and she didn't care, but she didn't care once her ear re-folded itself either. Her right side is also the side where her eye was / is swollen. I'm not sure what the folded ear can be, and why it's on the same side as her swollen eye.*

Outside of that, once Taki got started on her medicine, I mainly left her alone. I'd feed her, get her to drink as best as I could - and mostly with liquids in food, my wife and I would give her her medicine, and we'd pet her. But other than that, I'd let her sleep under her blanket. I didn't want to keep pulling her out. If she showed she wanted to be held, of course, we'd hold her. But that was rare. Really, she just wanted to sleep.

Over the last day or two, that's changed~!! Today, for example, I mentioned how she woke up when we did. I cleaned her, and she started cleaning herself (I'm still having a hard time with each arm. It's an awkward place to reach with a squirmy little ratty.) Tonight, she ate a full bowl (rat sized, of course) of maple and brown sugar oatmeal, mixed in with mashed sweet potato and turkey baby food. I had more baby food than oatmeal, in this case. I used the oatmeal to thicken the baby food. She finished the entire bowl.

I made her some banana mash a while later, and she ate a lot of that, which I had a lot of water in.

I still don't have any proof that she's drinking water itself. I really would love for her to have plain water, or plain anything without added sugar, etc. I have also still been trying to get her to eat her Oxbow either soaked or grounded into other foods, with no luck. But, she's eating, and I don't think she's lost more weight. 

I sat down on the floor with her, and set her down to do what she'd like, within sight. She walked around a bit, before running back to me. She's done this since we got her, she doesn't really like the floor! But, she got to walk around in a different area. I held her, and while she cuddled (and didn't dart around everywhere, I am so happy), she started cleaning her face again! 

She did shake quite a bit. They're like shivers. But, she's done that off and on for a while. She had been a very nervous rat, and bit hard as well. My wife and I helped her become less nervous, and she doesn't bite anymore (even when her teeth were fine.)

So, that's Taki's update~!!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

What if you put only 10% oxbow in her baby food? When my rat was sick she became more picky each day with her food, I had to improvise and cook her meals. I tried to make it as balanced as possible vitamins/minerals wise- not easy with a rat who becomes pickier by the hour. So I started adding a tiny pinch of Pri-Vital Mouse & Rat to her food. It has vitamins, minerals, electrolytes, probiotics and probiotics blend, amino acids, and omega fatty acids.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Is your pred 10 mg/ml?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Is your pred 10 mg/ml?


It's written on the bottle as:

Sus 10 mls
1 mg/ml
0.1 mls twice daily.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

So, today, Taki doesn't seem to be feeling as well as she has been. I wrote a lot yesterday, about how she was doing, how she explored a bit, etc. and today she's just not doing as much. Our room temp dropped very low while we were sleeping, as a storm was moving in and we didn't know, and had the window open as it's been quite warm. I've noticed, when it's stormier, Taki doesn't appear to feel as well. Can ratties be affected by weather like we are? I know some people get either very happy, down, or actually sick from rain / stormy weather. Anyway, just worried, and thought I'd ask.

She's also been grinding her teeth a lot today.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The bruxxing is one of the typical symptoms of PT. Y

I worked backwards with your prednisone dose and its a bit low.

http://ratguide.com/meds/endocrine_hormones/prednisone_prednisolone.php

Your vet is giving 0.6 mg/kg, and I usually prefer 1 mg/kg to help suppress the symptoms with pred. You can also give the dose once a day quite effectively or divide the dose. So her dose of pred should be 0.35 ml once a day or .13 ml twice a day.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

*Thank you, @lilspaz68. You mentioned that the PT isn't painful, correct? Why does a PT cause bruxxing? The more I learn, the better. Thank you for the information. I guess my wife started after you first told us, and I didn't realize! I'm so glad that she remembered. (I think you explained, but I've just been running on absolute panic.)
*
As for Taki, ever since that day when the room became quite cold while we were asleep, which is also when the huge storm rolled in, she doesn't seem to be feeling as good. Even her right eye is producing porphyrin again. 

Some additional info, food wise: I have for her all sorts of foods, and I came across some Sweet Peas. Ingredients: Water, Peas, Sugar, Sea Salt, Ascorbic Acid. *Is this something she can enjoy, mushed up, or is there something there that she shouldn't have?* Also, I have an avocado for her, which I am happy about. I'm hoping she'll enjoy the peas - if she can have them, and the avocado mushed up. 

For once, I hope this storm will roll off. I LOVE stormy weather, but I'm so worried that it's causing her some distress.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I'm truly worried. I don't know if I should be. I just feel like I should be. I mentioned in, I think my first post, that I deal with high anxiety. I take medication for this, but most of the time, it's not quite enough. My little family is everything to me. *Anyway, has anyone ever experienced a "PT (IF that's what she has, vet just put 'neurological disease') gets worse before it gets better" moment? 
*
*She's eating her baby food*, *has had some actual water, that she WANTS and doesn't need to be coaxed into getting* (I help her get some from the bottle, and put double-sided duct tape under a very low plastic lid for her to drink from, so she doesn't tip over the lid), has *climbed her cage bars a bit *(still not sure why, unless she wants her second level back, but she's still not coordinated enough, even to stand on a small box or igloo), *walked around a bit*, and *has wanted lots of attention*.

On the other hand, *her right eye - like mentioned above - has had more porphyrin discharge*. Less than the, what I called 'blood tears', before, but _this _time, *her eye is encrusted*. Even after limited sleep. I used a cool compress to remove this. *I FEEL like she's less active*. I'm not sure if that's so. Finally, she's definitely having *more of a limp*. She _can _bend each arm and leg, can sit up and clean her face, etc. (though can be a bit wobbly, off and on. Normally she's fine.) But, definitely more of a limp, most of the time. None of this is constant. Some of this, in fact, is new - like the encrusted eye.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

My wife noticed that Taki has a rather red arm, as in red like a wound (not bleeding, or open, just red.) First, I thought this was just from cleaning her eye maybe, or wiping off some kind of food, but then my wife pointed out that Taki's entire arm is bald. Any idea why?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

This is typical as well, she is having more trouble grooming and may wipe over her mucky eye but instead of cleaning the inside of her arm, she's either not or chewing on the fur. She may also have been a barberer (they shave off the fur they can reach on themselves or on others) and you didn't notice until now.

With PT its pretty much progressive. You are only using abs and prednisone right? I much prefer dex as its faster acting and longer lasting than prednisone. You have to make sure you are giving a high enough dosage because it needs to be able to shrink the tissues of the tumor that are pressing on the brain. The problem with steroid therapy is that its only a temporary thing. The tumor depending on its growth rate will eventually grow too big and the symptoms will all return and the downhilll slide begins. I have dealt with PT at least 40 times. I have a girl at home who is fading from it right now. She's 32 months old, quite weak in her hind end, so I am just letting it take its course. Normally when they are younger I give them a dex injection which I switch to oral for a few days then start on bromocriptine and pray its a prolactinoma (the most common type of pituitary tumor and the one only one that will be helped by bromocriptine). If they don't respond to bromo then i stay on steroid therapy but know that its just a delaying tactic.

I have a case history up on ratguide.com, but it was long before I convinced my vet to use the bromocriptine with our next PT case)

http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pituitary_tumor_figure_2.php


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Thank you, @lilspaz68
It's hard knowing that there is no cure. Though, all I want is for her to feel better, to be as happy and healthy as she can be.

*Please see below for more info, and I am asking for some advice.*

Last night was kind of a crazy one. First, she wanted a LOT of attention, which I was happy to give. Like usual, she stayed still for a while - though, longer than usual -, and suddenly would get very active. I hand washed the blanket she uses, and put that back in, but even with that back in and clean, she kept acting a bit weird. I mentioned before that she's climbing up her cage, and still is, and presses her face against the second level. I take her down, as even though it's a small drop, it's still a drop and I don't want her to hurt herself. I tried putting her up on the second shelf, which is blocked from the first for the same reason, and she'd either climb that side anyway, or zone out. 

I rearranged her bedding, and she hasn't seemed to approve. No matter what bedding she's been on, though, she'll "make biscuits" is the best phrase I'd use. Moving her little hands like she's kneading, except she's trying to dig, I think? In the corners. Whether she can, or cannot, dig through, she'll go lay down after. But she doesn't like when it's not possible, so I am doing my best.

Finally, when I give her her food, she'll eat some - snort more than usual -, and than go very... Off. She'll rub her nose, which is understandable. She'll poop while cleaning her face, instantly. Then she'll run like crazy, start trying to climb the wall again, smack into something, etc. before going under her blanket to sleep.

Any idea?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

^ above is current info. Any thoughts, advice appreciated.

I just read on a different forum that someone's ratty with PT would propel themselves forward, hit something (toy, cage wall, etc.) and turn and do the same thing. She's... Kind of been doing this. Well, she HAS been doing this, but when she's out of the cage, she does the same thing except she's exactly aware of where she is going and why.

Anyway, instead of baby food, I'm going to leave out some of that Maple and Brown Sugar oatmeal, even creamier than usual (more water). Maybe she has an upset stomach, and can't handle the baby food right now. 

I have fleece, and old - safe - clothes in her cage for her to rummage through, but like I said, she still kept trying to dig. So, I took a BUNCH of tissues and tore them up into what I call 'rat bedding sized pieces'. She's been running through them like they're snow, before burrowing under, and through the fleece and clothes.

Daytime and afternoon do seem like when she feels her best. I didn't get any sleep whatsoever! Mania. Worried about her. Our bird talking to the birds outside (very loudly, and sadly they don't hear him as he is inside.) Now, time to help my wife with the yard work and get medication.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

YOu might want to double her dose of pred if she continues worsening. My untreated PT girl at home, is now in the wander phase. Slithers/falls off the bed and I keep finding her with her head pressed into the weirdest places. This morning was in between 2 boxes. yesterday she had gotten behind the box and gotten stuck, couldn't turn around and no more ability to back up. I have her tucked in a carrier today with water, lab block mush, and lots of fleece. 

PT rats act very random, it doesn't always make sense to us, they even act blind at times...they are not there like they used to be. I have a pic of a PT from a necropsy but I am not sure you want to see it. They say most rats develop PT's very slowly as younger rats but only in some does it grow big enough to press on the brain and cause the crazy symptoms.

You just do your best, treat if you can, syringe feed if they need extra help and let them go (some can quietly pass at home) when its time.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> YOu might want to double her dose of pred if she continues worsening. My untreated PT girl at home, is now in the wander phase. Slithers/falls off the bed and I keep finding her with her head pressed into the weirdest places. This morning was in between 2 boxes. yesterday she had gotten behind the box and gotten stuck, couldn't turn around and no more ability to back up. I have her tucked in a carrier today with water, lab block mush, and lots of fleece.
> 
> PT rats act very random, it doesn't always make sense to us, they even act blind at times...they are not there like they used to be. I have a pic of a PT from a necropsy but I am not sure you want to see it. They say most rats develop PT's very slowly as younger rats but only in some does it grow big enough to press on the brain and cause the crazy symptoms.
> 
> You just do your best, treat if you can, syringe feed if they need extra help and let them go (some can quietly pass at home) when its time.


*Thank you for your kind words.* I just want to do my best, for her. Not for me. For me, what's best for her is what's best. 

It's been since Tuesday (3rd) that she started on the Baytril and Pred. My wife's been dosing the Pred like you suggested a while back, so that's good. The vet gave us 10 days worth, I believe (said 'until bottle is empty' or something like that.) You mentioned she'd be on these meds for the rest of her life, which is 100% fine (_I mean, price wise... It's hard, very hard, we're disabled, don't qualify for CareCredit, etc. but doable with giving plasma as I mentioned a while back._)

That's just Baytril and Pred ($40 for both). Anyway, she seemed better around day 3 - 4. Our room dropped quite low (I think about 62F at the coldest-66F) as a storm rolled in while we slept (she was cuddled up under her blanket all night, though). I don't even know if that could bother her, or the PT. I know ratties do better with cold than heat, but I got the temp up around 70-71F as soon as we realized what happened. She was very sluggish, etc. during the stormy weather and has now been like this once the storm rolled off. 

Sorry. I ramble. I seek help, advice, and just inspiration, compassion, etc. whenever given. Especially for ratty lovers who've had many of them. I doubt everything I do for the babies, ratties and others.

*After 10 days, do you think I should try to continue the medicine, or do you think it's just not doing much good all around, or is she at a more advanced stage that medicine can't really help?
*
Our last rat, (these are our first rats) passed on after spending an entire night and morning being held by my wife and I. I don't think she was peaceful, though, and that thought has bothered me for a long time. So if Taki does pass on, I do hope it's peaceful.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sometimes you get a wonderful result with steroids, other times not so much or none. Its sadly a bit of a crapshoot  Sometimes the tumor on their pituitary gland is growing faster than the pred can shrink the tissue of the tumor and you get a steady progression  Generally once they get past their restless phase PT rats are pretty comfortable and love to just lie as you stroke, rub itchy ears, scratch itchy bits they no longer can reach (especially the back of the neck which no rat can reach so they all love it). You go into a nursing phase which while bitter sweet can be lovely in its own way too, with the soft words, the cuddling, the yummy feedings which are easier and less messy (but only a bit, put a towel over your lap). See if you can get some Ensure or Boost or even the powdered flavored meal replacement drinks. Warm it up if you can, as it makes it more tasty for them. 

If she's not responding or is slowly regressing by the time you run out of Pred, then don't renew and be prepared for the regression. its sad but inevitable. Just try to enjoy her good days with her.

This was my little Cece (my current girls sister who also had PT...**** genetics!) sleeping comfortably, waiting for me to get home.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Thank you, again, so very much. My wife feels very much like you do. I'm a very emotional person, and promised myself I'd try to prolong this as long as possible. But, my wife, who is also emotional but also more rational, has said that when it's time, if she isn't responding to the meds, is eating food that's hard for her to eat - even feeding by hand, and so much more, that it's time to let her go peacefully instead of prolonging and prolonging. I understand. It's better to let her pass on, when she's still happy, and not as stressed as she would be otherwise.

I'd rather her pass on with us, too, unless it's traumatic. But from what I've read from your experiences, PT doesn't seem to be - including what you mentioned above.

I love ratties, more than I EVER thought. I love all animals, I'd give a home to every animal in the world that needs one - and I truly mean that, but there's something that I connected with very strongly with our girls.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I've been up since about 5 PM... Tuesday. (It's now 2:12 AM and Thursday.) Don't mind my rambling, the beginning part of this post will be in bold. It's very important, to me, and I'm - again - so confused.

Tuesday / Wednesday, I was up all night with Taki, same in the morning, she rested, I went to rest, couldn't, had a Dr's. appointment, and so on. I couldn't focus on anything all day, except watching her, worrying, reading about rats and PT, and such. Luckily, my wife helped me calm down, especially when I just broke down in tears.

*So, tonight. *Maybe 9 PM-ish, I decided I'd make Taki a good pea and carrot mush. I blended up everything as best as I could, put some in her bowl, put the bowl in her cage. She stumbled from her blanket. Literally, she could barely walk. She ate a few bites, before stopping, and I put a little on my finger and she LOVED IT. *But, all of a sudden, she looked startled and started running in circles. She kept doing this, smacking into the cage, falling over, etc. *and I picked her up as quick as I could, so she didn't hurt herself. *I held her to me tightly. She kind of was bobbing her head a lot, and I panicked, thinking she was choking, but no sounds, or foam, or hand movements, etc. and nothing turned blue.* Eventually, she didn't want to be held (she's not a cuddly rat for the most part), and *I put her in her cage. She went under her blanket,* and I stood there from 9 PM until now, 2-ish AM. 

For sure, I thought at that very moment, and these last few hours, that she would pass on. She's been under her blanket, or every so often somewhere else, and had a *spasm attack once every 10 min or so*. I think that's what these were. She'd be under the blanket, etc. and her eyes would roll slightly sometimes, but most of the time, she'd just start *twitching very hard*. Then she started *BURSTING away from where she was resting, flopping every so often, but more so would run into the cage wall*. I quickly learned that I had to keep her still as best I could, while comforting her.

She'd go under the blanket, and do everything from having the *tiniest breath to curling up into a ball*. I kept thinking she passed on, but checked and would see she was still breathing. I didn't want her to be alone, so I stood there all that time, and my wife would take over when I needed. 

Now, a little bit ago, right before this post, I got some bread because I was starving and Taki came out from her blanket and kept sniffing. I gave her the tiniest piece, and she gobbled that up like SHE was starving (she did eat on Tuesday and Wednesday, baby food and oatmeal.) I gave her another, she ate that up, and outside of some stumbling, seemed like she wanted to be fed. I made some baby food, came up, put down the dish, she scrambled around. *I put some on my finger and she gobbled the food right up. After a few, though, she started the frantic running.* I piled various cloth in the corners, so she wouldn't slam her face into them. *She'd drop down, scratch herself, get back up, run around, and she seemed like she needed to poop but didn't / couldn't*. 

Tuesday and Wednesday she was doing just fine, poop wise. Actually, quite a bit. Those two, and today (Thursday) she's peed with no problem. 

She's itching her back, and I do my best to itch for her; and is trying to lick her ratty lady parts, furiously, like I mentioned a while back. I looked, and everything appears fine.

So, short list:

Actually wanted, and drank water, on Wednesday.
Ate Tuesday and Wednesday, just fine.

*Late Wednesday, early Thursday:

Could barely walk
Startled after eating, running in circles, smacking into cage, falling over
Spasm attack about every 10 min
Bursting forth after some of them, smacking her face into cage wall and or flopping around
Acting like she passed on. Slow breathing, position, and I needed to check often to be sure and was so glad to see each tiny breath
Before spasm attack, however, she'd start heavily breathing
Got very hungry, had the tiniest pieces of bread - just three, and some baby food from my finger, before running frantically around and digging in corners
Hasn't pooped since late Wednesday, however is peeing
Itching her back a lot, and trying to lick her lady parts furiously.*

Now, she's actually sleeping, as far as I can tell, and I am here, writing this, confused as ****.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You still have to try to get me a video. It's the most helpful as I would see or recognize something that you might miss.When she panic-runs lift hér up and see if her lungs are clear.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I heard her getting up as soon as I read what you wrote, and grabbed a video. It's uploading to YouTube now (not sure how long this will take, so I hope you'll be on for a bit.) It's a bit dark, as it's early morning here, but that's better than nothing, I hope. Basically, as she has been, she got up, ran / hopped around, hit one wall, hit the other (I kept trying to shield her while filming, OMGs, my heart ;.. Then, she fell a bit, and finally, went into a corner to rest. Normally, she goes under her blanket, but she's loved corners ever since we first brought her home. I guess she feels safe there, though I've read that that's a sign of pain. But I know *in the past*, she wasn't. Anyway, will reply again when vid is fully uploaded.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am home for a bit, but can also check when i get to work. Or even on my phone 

PT seems to be illness of choice these days...your baby, another friends I am helping coach her through (she's got the meds) and my own


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Here's the video. Again, I'm sorry that it's dark (and not very steady.) You can make out her blanket, as well as the various cloth underneath some torn up tissue I've used to further pad the bottom. If you think something is off (too much cloth, etc.) or needs to be simplified, OR needs to be added, please let me know. 

Sigh. It's sideways for now. I tried rotating, and that didn't work. I'll try again, but again, something is better than nothing in this case:


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Also, this kind of falling over and how she is walking, is new. She was limping before, and wobbly, but this is much different.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OK yes please get me another video when you can, of her walking around in the light. Dark video but I got some impressions.

1) She has a head tilt to the right? She keeps overbalancing and falling on that side
2) Think of the running as dizzy wobbly circles around the cage.

Lets change our mindset to inner ear infection instead of PT and see if the observations fit. What abs is she on again? Just baytril and pred?

What I am seeing from that video is a girl with a head tilt, falling over from dizziness, doing big wobbly looping circling around her cage. The hanging out in corners, does she use them for balance/leaning on to stay upright? Think dizzy and nauseous and try to relate her movements etc. With PT the rat usually curls to the ;eft for some reason, the left paw is not as good as the right initially etc. Also head tilt is not common with PT rats.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Baytril and Pred. We have Amoxicillin on hand, though I don't know if that would do anything. (As well as baby Bayer and liquid children's Benadryl. Just throwing those out there.)

When she's under her blanket, I'll see a spasm - lots of body jumping. Either I go over and check on her, or she bursts out and either falls over, or hits her head on the wall. I've been trying to pad them. Either way, I go over, she wobbly gets up and is leaning towards the left from what I've noticed. Was the video rotated when you were able to watch? It's rotated now. Sun is coming up, so I should be able to get another vid once she's up again, with much better lighting. Anyway, with corners, she doesn't balance / lean on them, she'll just sit there and relax, her face in the corner. That's what she's done forever, finding a nice corner no matter where she is (desk, other cage levels, bed, etc.) I'm not sure why. She was and sometimes still is very shy.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I am home for a bit, but can also check when i get to work. Or even on my phone
> 
> PT seems to be illness of choice these days...your baby, another friends I am helping coach her through (she's got the meds) and my own


I'm so sorry, for your friend and you. I hope that both of your ratties feel as healthy and happy as possible~!! 

I hope that Taki is as well. I don't know if the spasm is causing her pain, and I can imagine hitting her poor face does. Hopefully my cushioning will fix that, though she's really stubborn about having nothing in her corners. <3

I took another video, this one is much milder. It's in good lighting, though. It's from her waking up, to going back under her blanket. She was super social, and I was able to get a close up of her eye. Her eye was the first sign that something was going on, as first we noticed more discharge (I literally said they looked like blood tears), and the swelling. 

With the meds she is on, her eye cleared up a lot, and started getting crusted over for the first time (after that cold spell + the storm). I feel so bad for our baby, for everything she is going through. Right now, with how she is (again, this started late Wednesday), do you recommend we give her her meds like usual? I am afraid she'll panic, but her health in general is most important. Also, when she eats even a little bit of anything, she goes into everything you saw in the video and more - to the extreme. I'm so lost as to what to do. I give her her daily breakfast, and am worried she'll hurt herself, or feel sick, etc. but I obviously don't want her to starve.

Ahhhh, please help. ;.;

Here's the mild vid:






I'll continue getting vids when I can. Going on... 36 hours up, now, I think. Need a little sleep, but luckily she's right across from our bed. I can't imagine having to work, etc. with sick animal babies. ;.; (My wife and I are both disabled, so we're with Taki almost 24/7).


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I think at this point I would use the scatter gun effect, and add the amoxi just in case there's an infection. combos are much more effective than using a single med.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I think at this point I would use the scatter gun effect, and add the amoxi just in case there's an infection. combos are much more effective than using a single med.


Alright, so Pred, Baytril and Amoxi for now? Luckily the Amoxi is capsule form, so we can just empty the powder and mix that in with something yummy in the syringe. I know this sounds like a stupid question, and I hope you'll know what I mean: should I continue feeding her, and how? Like I said, when I do, she's having a hard time eating from a bowl / plate, but when it's on my finger, she eats and eats, but then this will all kick in and she'll start running around, etc. Do I continue the finger method, try to relax her, etc. or should I try syringe feeding? If the first one, I can try again this afternoon, and get a video if you'd like?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I think at this point I would use the scatter gun effect, and add the amoxi just in case there's an infection. combos are much more effective than using a single med.


Also, you're right, sorry, it's her right ear that she's leaning with. It's very extreme, like her little head is to the ground.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I gave her some water from a dropper, and she grabbed as much as she could - will switch to a little syringe, as a bowl, even flat, doesn't work right now. She also took applesauce from my finger. I am so glad she's still showing an interest in water and food.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am leaning more and more to a severe untreated inner ear infection.

Can you give me the concentration of the baytril you have? (mg/ml)

the concentration of the amoxicillin you have (assume its a capsule and 250 mg)

Oh and her weight again?

I can help you with mixing and dosing instructions for those.

I would definitely offer your finger if she eats it that way...anything to get it in right?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> I am leaning more and more to a severe untreated inner ear infection.
> 
> Can you give me the concentration of the baytril you have? (mg/ml)
> 
> ...


Definitely.

I'm very upset, because when we saw this vet, he just kind of held her up, turned her around in the light, checked her top and bottom teeth, listened to everything that was going on while I did so and then said neurological, as he didn't feel anything wrong with her chest / stomach. So, if this is an infection, this could have been treated days ago. Though, the Pred and Baytril CAN help, right? It's not like she hasn't had anything? Here's the info:

Weight: was 345g at the vet, and I'm guessing less now. 
Baytril: Baytril 10 mls 0.2 mls twice daily

As for Amoxicillin listed as Clindamvcin HCI: 75mg (tablet / capsule. You can pull them apart, and it's fine powder.)


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

She's the worst she's been, literally on her ear, going in circles. I picked her up, she went into my shirt to hide, came out, went under a blanket, did the same thing and kept trying to go off the bed. I put her back in her cage, and she's on her ear again, going in circles, frantically. I'll try to figure out the correct dosage of Amoxicillin for her, and do my best. I don't know if that will help at this stage.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

She's sleeping right now, but I'm still panicking. I'm also still trying to figure out the correct dosage. I've never had to mix anything for our babies before, ratties and otherwise, it's always been straight up whatever they were prescribed.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> She's the worst she's been, literally on her ear, going in circles. I picked her up, she went into my shirt to hide, came out, went under a blanket, did the same thing and kept trying to go off the bed. I put her back in her cage, and she's on her ear again, going in circles, frantically. I'll try to figure out the correct dosage of Amoxicillin for her, and do my best. I don't know if that will help at this stage.


I'm so sorry she is getting worse. If it's an ear infection, both amox, and Baytril can help- especially together. There are other antibiotics that could help- but I'm sure you know about those already. Do you have a bin cage so she can't fall and hurt herself? How many times have got got to see a vet now? So sorry, having a sick rat is horribly stressful and painful.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I called the emergency vets here, and they said that:

A. it's not an emergency exactly and
B. if she's already being treated with medicine, there's nothing else they can do and
C. they said to call her vet tomorrow morning and see what he recommends

Is all of this true? The emergency vets asked what meds she's on, what's happening, and said that's all that can really be done right now (what she's on, and talk to her vet.)


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I'm so sorry she is getting worse. If it's an ear infection, both amox, and Baytril can help- especially together. There are other antibiotics that could help- but I'm sure you know about those already. Do you have a bin cage so she can't fall and hurt herself? How many times have got got to see a vet now? So sorry, having a sick rat is horribly stressful and painful.


Do you know how much amox and Baytril together? 

She's on Baytril 10 mls 0.2 mls twice daily

As for Amoxicillin listed as Clindamvcin HCI: 75mg (powder). I thought that I read half, so 25mg, but I don't know if that's right. She's probably less than 345g now (that was when she first saw the vet.)

She's seen him once now, he prescribed Prednisone and Baytril, for 'neurological' disease, but with everything that's been having since late Wednesday night, lilspaz said it's probably a severe, untreated upper ear infection (or is that URI?) Either way, the Baytril should help, and lilspaz said Amox and Baytril together, but I've no idea the correct dosage, or how to mix (just put them together?)


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I just checked on her again, and she's still sleeping soundly. I think she wore herself out. I don't know if this is PT, PT + URI / Upper Ear Infection, or URI / Upper Ear Infection by itself. I know PT can't be cured, I know that in some cases - if treated fast enough / well enough(?) the infection can be. Pretty much everything pointed to a PT, until late Wednesday night. Ffff.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

She panicked a moment ago, like she was last night. She gets worse during the evening / night. I checked, and she's sleeping again. She'll panic in her sleep, and burst forward, but this time she fell back to sleep.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You have amox, Baytril. Do you have doxycycline too? If you do, I would give her all of those and talk to your regular vet in the morning. Could be PT, in that case antibiotics won't work. However, keep giving her those as it could be an ear infection too. I mix a 250 mg amox with 7.5 ml Torani syrup- you can do half Torini (or other flavoring) and half water. I crush the powder with back of a spoon first as the powder is coarse and doesn't mix well like that.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> You have amox, Baytril. Do you have doxycycline too? If you do, I would give her all of those and talk to your regular vet in the morning. Could be PT, in that case antibiotics won't work. However, keep giving her those as it could be an ear infection too. I mix a 250 mg amox with 7.5 ml Torani syrup- you can do half Torini (or other flavoring) and half water. I crush the powder with back of a spoon first as the powder is coarse and doesn't mix well like that.


I am so, so very sorry, but I am horrible with any sort of calculation, and I've tried everything online. If possible, I just need to know this:

I open the capsule of Clindamycin (this is different than Amox, now that I've read more - I thought they were the same thing. She hasn't had any yet, though.)
I empty the powder on something clean and smooth.
There is 75mg and she is a 345 or - most likely less - ratty.
Do I separate this in half, or much more? I guess, the question is, 1 pile, 2 pile, 3 pile... You get the idea. 

I'm sorry that I need this so simple. Despite being a grown woman, I'm absolutely horrible with this.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

According to ratguide dosage is 7.5mg/kg to 25mg/kg.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The more dilute the dose, the less med taste but the more syrup. If you tell me what dosage you need (mg/kg), I can give you better instructions.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I need to know how much you want to give her first. It is recommended 7.5 to 25 mg/kg


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I read ratguide a bit earlier, but none of that made sense to me, like I said. I don't have syrup, but I do have vanilla soy milk, or a favorite baby food of hers. The soy milk would be used in the syringe, or the baby food which would be mixed in a small cap (therefore, none would be lost.) She'd most likely eat all of that from my finger, like earlier. If not, it's easy to syringe up, as well. That's why I asked about breaking the Clindamycin powder into a pile. I once read you empty the powder, and use something to separate the powder into halves. But, something else said, until you have 24 piles. Her weight is 345g or less.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Ah, so 25mg would be the powder broken into three piles? 75-25-25?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You need to put it into a liquid as you need to shake it really well before dosing it. Ok what about a 15mg/kg dose? Does that sounds good to you? Before doing any math I need to pick the mg/kg and it can be anything between 7.5 and 25 mg/kg.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

LoveOurBabies said:


> Ah, so 25mg would be the powder broken into three piles? 75-25-25?


Yes, but really hard to really break it down into 3 exact piles. Unless of course you have a scale that measures mg.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

If you do 3 piles, one pile could be 20mg, and the other two piles 27.5 mg. But if mixing it into syrup is an issue, go ahead and give the first dose as your rat is in dear need of it.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Will do, thank you so much! I really can't thank you enough. I was home-schooled by... very horrible people who didn't teach me anything, and have never learned this (math has always been the hardest subject for me to 'get'). 

I'm not sure why, but my Baytril isn't measured in anything but:

Baytril 10 mls 0.2 mls twice daily

That's all. So, when asked about mg/kg, for instance, I've no idea. Unless it's just going over my head.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

(I mention that as I've been asked about the Baytril a few times.)


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

NO wait you got it WRONG!


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

I didn't give her anything yet. What part is incorrect? (Note: I am NOT mixing with the Baytril.)


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

You still have to divide it by 3 as your rat is only 345 grams and not 1 lb


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok 1/3 of a capsule would be the max dose recommended for a 1lb rat! Your rat is only 345 g which is 0.35 lb. So to make math easier I will assume your rat is 0.33lb. So if you have to separate 1 cap in 9 piles. Hence why using syrup make it easier as you just put the powder in the syrup in a small container (like glass bottle with a lid or container your get pills at your pharmacy in...), shake well and use a syringe (NO needle) to get an exact dosage each time.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Ok 1/3 of a capsule would be the max dose recommended for a 1lb rat! Your rat is only 345 g which is 0.35 lb. So to make math easier I will assume your rat is 0.33lb. So if you have to separate 1 cap in 9 piles. Hence why using syrup make it easier as you just put the powder in the syrup in a small container (like glass bottle with a lid or container your get pills at your pharmacy in...), shake well and use a syringe (NO needle) to get an exact dosage each time.


Thank you SO much. Will do. You've been so patient. Taki's been doing well this entire time, minus a few of her jolts during sleep, which I was talking to lilspaz about. I didn't get the jolts, but did get Taki's behavior earlier on video - which was much more mild - on page... 10 or so, most likely, by now.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

When Taki's on her side, ear pressed to the ground, going in those tight circles (entire side on the ground, not just her ear), what can I do? I've tried holding her, which can every so often lessen her doing this, and calm her down, but instead it's more her flailing. I'd love to know if there's a way people who've gone through this have relaxed their ratty during these times.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

*This post is an update, as there has been a LOT going on, including many posts.

Late Wednesday, early Thursday:
*
• Could barely walk
• Startled after eating, running in circles, smacking into cage, falling over
• Spasm attack about every 10 min
• Bursting forth after some of them, smacking her face into cage wall and or flopping around
• Acting like she passed on. Slow breathing, position, and I needed to check often to be sure and was so glad to see each tiny breath
• Before spasm attack, however, she'd start heavily breathing
• Got very hungry, had the tiniest pieces of bread - just three, and some baby food from my finger, before running frantically around and digging in corners
• Hasn't pooped since late Wednesday, however is peeing
• Itching her back a lot, and trying to lick her lady parts furiously

*The way she is walking and falling over is new. She was limping a bit and wobbly before. *

*Thursday, around 6 AM:
*
• I took vids for lilspaz
• Was informed that this could actually be an inner ear infection
• Pooped, luckily

*Thursday, after 12 PM:
*
• Drank water and ate applesauce, seemed very interested in both
• Relaxed, actually rummaging around the cloth, looking around, etc.

*Thursday, after 8 PM: 
*
• Worst I've seen her, with her head and ENTIRE BODY on the ground (right side) spinning in small circles furiously
• Would crawl with her entire body to a different area and continue
• Flailing hands and feet
• Eventually calmed down, and fell asleep, except for a few jolts
• I called the emergency vets here, and they said they cannot do anything as she already has a vet and is on meds
• I went to leave the room, and noticed she was staring at me through the cage. I walked over, and she was fine for a few seconds, before pressing her body against the ground again and spinning and flailing
• Sleeping soundly again (current)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am going to give you my email address so you have someone to answer questions more immediately or just to let me know there's more on her thread here. I am too used to being tagged to Facebook posts that need my attention. [email protected] you do NOT have amoxicillin you have Clindamycin which is fine but dosed differently.http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/clindamycin.phpI am going to make my morning coffee then explain a bit more and work our dosing and instructions for you.Breathe. We are also going to need to work out a reduction schedule for her Prednisone as taking them off cold turkey is very dangerous. If you haven't mentioned her dose and how often you give it above, then let me know OK? Coffee time!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OK now that I am more awake I see you discovered what it was and also Griboulli was helping you.

I would make up a sweet solution (say 2 ml syrup and 1 ml water and put in a small bottle with a tight cap or lid. Then open up the capsule of clindamycin and dump into solution. Shake it then leave it to meld a few hours. This gives you 25 mg/ml clindamycin solution which needs to be refrigerated.

Using her weight of 345 grams and the good choice dosage of 15 mg/kg her dose would be 0,21 ml twice a day.

Its suggested to give a probiotic twice a day as well and continue for 2 weeks after treatment. You can use probiotic yogurt but make sure to give it 2 hours outside of any antibiotics.

I would advise taking her off the pred since it would have done all it could by now and can potentially be causing issues but you have to do a careful reduction schedule which I can work out with her dose when you give it to me. Once she's off the pred we will put her on infant liquid ibuprofen for pain and inflammation...it cannot be given with pred.

The baytril bottle doesn't have mg/ml on the bottle or the invoice anywhere? 10 ml is only how much is in the bottle, buit could be any concentration.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> OK now that I am more awake I see you discovered what it was and also Griboulli was helping you.
> 
> I would make up a sweet solution (say 2 ml syrup and 1 ml water and put in a small bottle with a tight cap or lid. Then open up the capsule of clindamycin and dump into solution. Shake it then leave it to meld a few hours. This gives you 25 mg/ml clindamycin solution which needs to be refrigerated.
> 
> ...


Thank you SO much. Thank you for saying to breathe... You saying that really helped. (I was reading the wiki about your ratty babies, and all you've taken care of.) 

I will e-mail you, as well, so you have my e-mail address and just so it's already there. 

*So, for the Pred, it's: Prednisone Susp 10 mls 1mg/ml
*
That's straight from the invoice.

*The Baytril is just: Baytril Suspension 10 mls
*
*The bottle reads to give 0.2 mls twice daily.* That's the only added information. I'll be calling them this morning, and I'll ask if their record has the information. (My invoice is both paper, and online, so I have all I can have at the moment.)

I wish I knew that this was most likely an inner ear infection from the start. I know there's still the possibility that it's a PT, or both, but I really really really _really _hope that it's something that can be cured.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

What dose are you giving of the pred again? How many mls and once or twice a day?


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

*This morning's (Friday) update on our Taki:
*
• Had maybe one additional circling on ear episode all night
• Has been pushing around her cage, on her (right) side and has made herself comfortable (hopefully) wherever she goes
• I've taken her out off and on, held her, pet her, my wife pet her, I gave her some water, etc. Once she's wiggly and wants to go back in, I put her in so she isn't stressed
• This morning, earlier, she basically used my hand as a crutch. I went to put her in her cage, and she leaned into my hand and kind of guided ME on getting her around
• She's been cleaning her face whenever she has water, or just when she feels like doing so
• Her eye is clearer than before, and hasn't gotten crusted over


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> What dose are you giving of the pred again? How many mls and once or twice a day?


0.1 1/2, twice daily.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

So you are giving 0.15 ml twice a day?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

For today only give her one dose (not 2)I'll work out a schedule when I get to work (late again!)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Dex Reduction Schedule (once a day)
Fri., May 13 – 0.15 ml
Sat., May 14 – 0.15 ml
Sun., May 15 – 0.15 ml
Mon., May 16 – 0.08 ml
Tues., May 17 – 0.08 ml
Wed., May 18 – 0.08 ml
Thurs., May 19 – 0.04 ml
Fri., May 20 – 0.04 ml
Sat., May 21- 0.04 ml
Mon., May 23 – 0.04 ml
Wed., May 25 – 0.04 ml
STOP


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Dex Reduction Schedule (once a day)
> Fri., May 13 – 0.15 ml
> Sat., May 14 – 0.15 ml
> Sun., May 15 – 0.15 ml
> ...


Thank you for sharing this, lilspaz. Though, we're giving her much less than 0.15 ml, like I mentioned. Unless I'm just reading this wrong. The syringe they gave us, also, is very very small. This is the syringe (not my picture, though).


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

The lovely lilspaz is helping me via e-mail, so I've been a bit quiet here. Taki gobbled up some water mixed with coconut dairy free milk, and my mother-in-law let me borrow her blender to make a mix of chunk chicken, and plain macaroni, with water added. I'll be experimenting, making my own baby food, until my wife and my food stamp money comes in on the 15th and I can stock up again. Speaking of which, I'm asking lilspaz about Slimfast instead of Ensure. Both have milk, so that worries me, as milk plus Pred don't go together. Anyway, Slimfast is meant for human's to lose weight, but I'm not sure about ratties, as it's a meal replacement so it's meant to be nutritious. They're so little, that I'm sure even a little bit would be good, IF I get some confirmation on that. I'm going through lilspaz, and all of you. My vet never did call back, and frankly, I'm not sure if he'd even know. Sigh. 

Taki's been doing her best to stand, and try to walk. I'm so proud of her.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

In a while, I'm going to blend Oxbow with coconut milk, and try and get some of that into her. I do have a question. How much, and how often, should I feed her? I must syringe feed her for now. I'd prefer to give her a proper amount, within a proper time, so that she's getting nutrition, but not an upset stomach / feeling too full. But, at the same time, the poor little thing has lost weight and you can tell she wants to drink and eat. Any advice would be wonderful - thank you~!!


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Good morning, everyone!

So, my wife and I woke up and Taki walked up to the cage bars to greet me. SHE WALKED UP. Wobbly, but she's up AND WALKING and I'm so happy. I took her out, gave her something to drink - which she did, and cuddled her before putting her back in her cage. She's also trying to drink out of her water bottle. She can only get a lick or two in, so I squeezed the bottle and she drank. BEFORE WALKING OFF TO GO CLEAN HER FACE. WHILE STANDING UP. 

I just made her oatmeal in her bowl, and she ate almost the whole thing. Now she's resting. She'll drink, eat, or take her meds, before cleaning herself and resting. 

Right now, she's feeling better from what I can tell, even if wobbly and needs a little help, and we're so, so, so, so happy.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Our baby started acting / feeling a little worse a while after this post. She was on the ground more, again. She's had her Baytril, and lilspaz is helping me figure out the Pred dosage, as well as the Clindamycin dose. Taki's been sleeping for the most part, however I'll wake her up in a little bit to give her some coconut milk (dairy free) milk and water mix. I wanted coconut WATER, but my mother-in-law misunderstood. Luckily, our food stamp money will come in tomorrow, so we can stock up on everything we need.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Hi, everyone. So, I was talking to lilspaz and was showing her our syringe and how much Pred we're giving her, and she asked if that's what the vet said - I said yes - and she said it's way too much. 

Picture I showed lilspaz, of Pred dose. We've been giving 0.1 and 1/2 (that is 0. one and one half.) As you can see, there aren't numbers on this one, except the 0.1 which is where I drew the line.










So, she asked me to post on here, and ask for dose estimates. This is THE syringe we have. So, for anyone who has access to paint, if you can show me where on the syringe each dose should be, that'd be wonderful. Also, the syringe picture is true to size. Right, so. Here's what I need:

*Dose estimate of Pred: 
Dose estimate of Baytril:
Does estimate of Clindamycin mix: 
*
Here's the info:

_Taki's weight: __345g from the vet's office. *(Most likely thinner now.)*
Pred dose: Prednisone Sus 10 mls / 0.1 mls twice daily. (except lilspaz told me this, so this is what we've been trying to do:

(back on page 8 ) _I worked backwards with your prednisone dose and its a bit low.
*
http://ratguide.com/meds/endocrine_h...ednisolone.php

Your vet is giving 0.6 mg/kg, and I usually prefer 1 mg/kg to help suppress the symptoms with pred. You can also give the dose once a day quite effectively or divide the dose. So her dose of pred should be 0.35 ml once a day or .13 ml twice a day. 

*I believe lilspaz wants Taki on *0.15 ml* right now, though. I may be wrong, but let's go with that._

Baytril: Baytril Sus 10 mls 0.2 mls twice daily.

Now, for the Clindamycin mix, lilspaz said:
_*
I would make up a sweet solution (say 2 ml syrup and 1 ml water and put in a small bottle with a tight cap or lid. Then open up the capsule of clindamycin and dump into solution. Shake it then leave it to meld a few hours. This gives you 25 mg/ml clindamycin solution which needs to be refrigerated.

Using her weight of 345 grams and the good choice dosage of 15 mg/kg her dose would be 0,21 ml twice a day.

*So, again, on that picture of the syringe - perferably using Paint or any program, show me the line where each dose SHOULD be. Please, Please, Please and thank you in advance!

*Dose estimate of Pred: 
Dose estimate of Baytril:
Does estimate of Clindamycin mix: *


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

---


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

i could try to help with showing the correct point on the syringe, but can't see an attatched image of the syringe. for future, you can get packs of a few 1ml needleless syringes online for cheap (i got 10 for £1.10 i think), so that might be a good option for you.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

For 0.21 ml for instance. I draw the green liquid to the 0.2 mark plus an extra tiny mark to make it to 0.21. The extra 0.01ml (tiny mark) can't be well seen on the picture though. Let me know if that helps.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Here it makes it easier.


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Thank you, Gribouilli~!!

Taki woke up a few moments ago, went over to her water bottle, I heard a lick so I came over and watched and helped a little, I took her out, cuddled her, tried to see if she wanted water from a little syringe - she didn't -, put her back in, most of the baby food I gave her was gone, so I'll give more in a second. She's now cleaning herself, and going for more water.

I was telling lilspaz, that sometimes Taki's on her side and back, wiggling around the cage, can't walk, etc. and she said that I need to think of the quality of life. To me, when she's like this, she's her regular self with an inner ear infection - she's herself, but wobbly, falling over, etc. but can lift her head, do everything she normally does. On a bad day, when she's on the ground, and moving around but can't walk or eat or drink without help, I worry. Right now, she's her regular self, with an infection, but doing everything she normally does. So, I just don't know. Right this moment, though, I'll continue giving her yummy foods, and watch her drink and clean herself and walk around and burrow in clothing. <3

Tomorrow I'm going into the vet's office to get a new syringe.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

OK back we go.

continue giving the clindamycin at 0.21 ml twice a day, and the baytril at 0.2 ml twice a day (BID means twice a day)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The prednisone you need to give on a reduction schedule. Starting at 0.13 ml ONCE a day starting today.

Dex Reduction Schedule (once a day)
Mon., May 16 – 0.13 ml
Tues., May 17 – 0.13 ml
Wed., May 18 – 0.13 ml
Thurs., May 19 – 0.07 ml
Fri., May 20 – 0.07 ml
Sat., May 21 – 0.07 ml
Sun., May 22 – 0.04 ml
Mon., May 23 – 0.04 ml
Wed., May 25- 0.04 ml (every 2nd day now)
Fri., May 27 – 0.04 ml
Sun., May 29 – 0.04 ml
STOP


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Thank you!

This morning, so far, has been good. I think she might be drinking from the water bottle without me pressing for a drip, and will be marking the side. She's had a tilt to her stance, but not her head, and is walking much better. Can sit up, clean her face. Her body is still a bit hard for her, probably because she has to bend and put herself even more at an angle. She had some water and coconut milk, ate banana baby food last night, and is having carrot and pea baby food, now. She's REALLY digging in. Peeing and pooping okay, from what I've noticed. Cuddling. 

My mother-in-law has ménière's disease (vertigo, hearing loss, ear ringing, ear pressure, nausea and imbalance), so she kind of has an idea of what our baby is going through.


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