# Baytril course length?



## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

Hey guys, I took Tyrion to the vet a few weeks ago with a respiratory infection and was given one week of antibiotics. Somebody on here mentioned that it might not be enough and they were right, the symptoms went but came back within the next week and now he's just as bad as ever. So i took him back today and we were given a more competent vet however when i asked if we could have a longer course of medication this time, he said 10 days was the longest he'd give us. He said that rats can build up an immunity to it if they're on if for too long? 

I'm just worried that this course won't work properly either. Tyrion is my heart rat, he's so special to me and I don't want the problem to get worse!


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

Rats need 4-6 weeks on a combination of antibiotics. Most vets are starting to understand that long-term treatment as such is needed, but it is a new concept to some. 7-10 days is very old school thinking. 
He won't build an immunity to it. Many rats are on Baytril or Doxy or both for life and there are no negative effects.


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## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

Velo said:


> Rats need 4-6 weeks on a combination of antibiotics. Most vets are starting to understand that long-term treatment as such is needed, but it is a new concept to some. 7-10 days is very old school thinking.
> He won't build an immunity to it. Many rats are on Baytril or Doxy or both for life and there are no negative effects.


Thanks for the reply. I feel like there's nothing i can do. At the end of my appointment i think he could tell i wasn't happy with the course i'd been given because he said to come back after the ten days and he might give me 2 weeks worth, but that still isn't really long enough! 

I also feel like they might be trying to get more money out of me, since every time I return for more antibiotics i have to pay for a consultation, instead of just giving me the amount i need there and then!


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

Jess <3 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I feel like there's nothing i can do. At the end of my appointment i think he could tell i wasn't happy with the course i'd been given because he said to come back after the ten days and he might give me 2 weeks worth, but that still isn't really long enough!
> 
> I also feel like they might be trying to get more money out of me, since every time I return for more antibiotics i have to pay for a consultation, instead of just giving me the amount i need there and then!


Well if he will give you more after the ten days, that is a solution. If you can manage at least 4 weeks you should be okay. 
Hopefully he will realize that just because symptoms go away, that doesn't mean the bacteria is dead.
It's just like humans, if you have ever had an infection and get antibiotics to treat it, they always say "Take the FULL prescription, do not stop taking the medication early just because you feel better!" It's the same for rats, they may look fine and seem better for a few days, maybe even a couple weeks, but then the infection rears it head and this is how some rats develop serious problems like pneumonia.

You could call and say you spilled it and get more to keep on hand?
Hopefully he is dosing him correctly too. If you post Tyrion's weight and the strength of the Baytril I can check the dose.
He should really be on Baytril AND Doxy as of this point.

Unfortunately there are definitely some vets who play this game of making money off of revisits and refills on prescriptions.
You can try getting the antibiotics online, although I don't know what that is like in the UK as I am in the US.
This is where I get Baytril:
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/product_baytril.php
They do ship internationally, although I do not know how expensive or how long it may be.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I think I had previously suggested buying baytril online. Did you ever look into that Jess?


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## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

Velo said:


> Well if he will give you more after the ten days, that is a solution. If you can manage at least 4 weeks you should be okay.
> Hopefully he will realize that just because symptoms go away, that doesn't mean the bacteria is dead.
> It's just like humans, if you have ever had an infection and get antibiotics to treat it, they always say "Take the FULL prescription, do not stop taking the medication early just because you feel better!" It's the same for rats, they may look fine and seem better for a few days, maybe even a couple weeks, but then the infection rears it head and this is how some rats develop serious problems like pneumonia.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, unfortunately you cant buy Baytril online without a prescription in the UK. If it comes down to it though I might end up buying it from the US and just deal with the fact that it's a little pricey. 

The dosage was something i forgot to mention but i'm equally as concerned with it. The first vet i saw weighed Tyrion (i didn't see the weight but i'll try and find the scales tonight to check) and told me to give him 0.8ml twice a day. This vet didn't weight him and subscribed 0.1ml twice a day which seems like a big enough difference to be a mistake. There's definitely not enough in the bottle for 0.8ml a day, it's almost nothing and it cost me more! 

As for being on Doxy as well, i've never been offered it and the one time i brought it up i was told it wasn't necessary and made to feel stupid. Vets really have a knack for making me feel like an idiot when i'm just trying to ensure my rats get the proper treatment. 

Ugh, i'm just getting so fed up with the lack of knowledge and the guess work that i get not matter where i go.


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## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

Oh and another thing. The Baytril you linked me to says 10%. The one the vet gives me is only 2.5%...


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

Jess <3 said:


> Thanks for the reply, unfortunately you cant buy Baytril online without a prescription in the UK. If it comes down to it though I might end up buying it from the US and just deal with the fact that it's a little pricey.
> 
> The dosage was something i forgot to mention but i'm equally as concerned with it. The first vet i saw weighed Tyrion (i didn't see the weight but i'll try and find the scales tonight to check) and told me to give him 0.8ml twice a day. This vet didn't weight him and subscribed 0.1ml twice a day which seems like a big enough difference to be a mistake. There's definitely not enough in the bottle for 0.8ml a day, it's almost nothing and it cost me more!
> 
> ...


Hm well maybe you can go the route of getting it from the US then. You can try and figure out how much money it will cost to continue going back to the vet vs paying for shipping. 

Yikes! This new vet didn't even weigh him?? Unfortunately I think this vet is completely unqualified. ;/
.1 ml of 2.5% Baytril does seem low to me. I can't confirm what his dose should be without his weight though.

I think the vets you have seen just don't know enough of the current information on rats and rat URIs. 
Maybe someone on this forum that is in the UK knows a good vet out there? Doxy is also available online here in the States...



Jess <3 said:


> Oh and another thing. The Baytril you linked me to says 10%. The one the vet gives me is only 2.5%...


The strength of the Baytril isn't significant except when you figure out the dose.
You actually can't give the 10% straight up either, you have to dilute it first.


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## SilverstarDJ (Jan 26, 2015)

Jess <3 said:


> Thanks for the reply, unfortunately you cant buy Baytril online without a prescription in the UK. If it comes down to it though I might end up buying it from the US and just deal with the fact that it's a little pricey.
> 
> The dosage was something i forgot to mention but i'm equally as concerned with it. The first vet i saw weighed Tyrion (i didn't see the weight but i'll try and find the scales tonight to check) and told me to give him 0.8ml twice a day. This vet didn't weight him and subscribed 0.1ml twice a day which seems like a big enough difference to be a mistake. There's definitely not enough in the bottle for 0.8ml a day, it's almost nothing and it cost me more!
> 
> ...


If you saw another vet at the same practice is is likely to have your rat's weight on their records so the second vet wouldn't need to weight him again. You can request a second opinion within the practice if you are not happy with the advise given or you can change vets. There are specialist exotics vet practices in the UK (you can enquire about their rodent experience over the phone if unsure) although depending on your location you may have to travel.


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## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

Velo said:


> Hm well maybe you can go the route of getting it from the US then. You can try and figure out how much money it will cost to continue going back to the vet vs paying for shipping.
> 
> Yikes! This new vet didn't even weigh him?? Unfortunately I think this vet is completely unqualified. ;/
> .1 ml of 2.5% Baytril does seem low to me. I can't confirm what his dose should be without his weight though.
> ...


This vet spoke as if he knew what he was on about (the vet I saw previously left us in the room and when she came back it sounded suspiciously like she was reciting a chunk of text from a book) but he was old enough that he could have been taught very outdated information. I can't believe I left my baby there to be neutered last year! This is the second vet practice i've tried the only other one within driving distance is the same chain as the first vet just a bigger practice, further away. We use to take our dogs there but they charge an extortionate amount of money. I feel like i want to link this vet to some updated info on rats but that probably wouldn't be in my best interest in the long run! 



> The strength of the Baytril isn't significant except when you figure out the dose.
> You actually can't give the 10% straight up either, you have to dilute it first.


Well that's something at least! 



> There are specialist exotics vet practices in the UK (you can enquire about their rodent experience over the phone if unsure) although depending on your location you may have to travel.


I'll search online for the nearest exotic vet, although every vet i've in the part of England has been a 'dog, cat, rabbit, hamster' kind of place who look at rats as well. Perhaps they're making the mistake of treating them in the same way they'd treat a hamster/gerbil.


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## aoinezumi (Dec 6, 2014)

Jess <3 said:


> I'll search online for the nearest exotic vet, although every vet i've in the part of England has been a 'dog, cat, rabbit, hamster' kind of place who look at rats as well. Perhaps they're making the mistake of treating them in the same way they'd treat a hamster/gerbil.


Exotic vets aren't always better when it comes to rats. I, too, am having a hard time finding a decently-close vet that can help clear up my rat's URI. I first took him to a cat/dog/rabbit vet who happens to also see rats. She prescribed him albon mixed in cherry flavoring to be fed at .10ml every 12 hours until it was gone and said to bring him back if he was still sneezing. However, that clinic is almost an hour away, so I decided to take him to an exotics specialist (since he's still sneezing) that was only ten minutes from my house. I thought maybe she'd know better of what was wrong and what to give. She gave me four containers of liquid containing a total of 2ml of injectable baytril to use as his drinking water for five days.... Needless to say, he's still sneezing and if he gets worse, he's going back to the regular vet even though it tends to be a three hour ordeal due to distance (maybe she'll be kind and send his prescription toy local pharmacy?). The exotic vet clearly knew less about rats than the cat and dog vet. She said he probably had a virus but was giving him antibiotics as a precaution (she knew his treatment history), and didn't say to bring him back if it doesn't work. This is after I told her I was worried it was a mild myco flare-up and that his condition had been the same for over a month. I was quite irritated that she expected me to separate my otherwise healthy rat for a treatment that wasn't even long enough. I wasted 60 dollars having the poo squeezed out of my one rat- only to get four bottles of liquid and be told that "he IS a rat. They have excellent immune systems" that may be true, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve exact doses of ABs like every other type of animal :/ also, the regular vet has also successfully neutered many rats where as the vet techs at the exotic vet didn't even know that was possible! The lack of rat knowledgeable vets is truly very sad.


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

You should never put anything in a rat's drinking water. That is a major red flag, that vet has no clue what they are doing. ;/
You can dose your rat with the injectable Baytril by compounding it and giving it orally.
If you still have it and didn't put it in the water, maybe we can figure out a dose for him.

I feel bad you guys can't find good vets, that just sucks. ):


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

Christ there are so many misguided ideas about vets on this site. Putting medications in drinking water is perfectly fine as long as they're still drinking, you shake the bottle well and replace every couple of days. Yes, it's normally a method used for treating multiple rats, but it still works. Saying that a vet has no clue about treating animals because they recommend this method is absurd. If you're at the vet with your animal and they recommend a treatment that you're not comfortable with, speak up! Have the vet either put your mind at ease about the treatment they prescribed or insist that they give you a different one. Remember that you're a customer and they're providing a service, which means that you have a right to know why they're making the decisions they make and you CAN request alternatives. I think that the main reason that vets incur such a negative reputation is because people just don't ask questions. Yes, some vets suck, but not all of them.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I should add that putting medications in water is not the best method if you have the option to give the meds orally, but it is a viable option.


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

How is putting medicine in water "perfectly fine"?
I mean seriously, you even say right after "as long as they're still drinking". You KNOW that rats can dehydrate themselves from refusing to drink tainted water yet you think it's "perfectly fine"?
Is it "perfectly fine" if a rat is thirsty and gets a mega dose of antibiotics? Is it "perfectly fine" if a rat doesn't drink much and gets under dosed? Under-dosing infections kills, bottom line.
It is old school thinking for a vet to put meds in a rat's water. Maybe I shouldn't go so far to say a vet has "no clue what they are doing", I'm sure they know plenty about vet science but they need to updated their knowledge on rat medicating.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I base the efficacy of this method off of laboratory test results which show that the bacteria being treated were totally eliminated. As I said, it's not the best method (for individual rats) and you can easily convert the baytril in water to an oral dose. All it requires is knowing how to ask your vet the right questions. The main point of the post was just that, people need to know how to talk to their vet and not be afraid to ask for something different or a different method of administering medications. I'm sure in vet school they keep small animals the same way we do in a laboratory which means that the water bottle method is what they were exposed to. If you personalize your pet's visit with a vet (tell them what they do and don't like, how they react to certain things, etc) you're likely to get a much better regimen set up for your pet.


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## Jess <3 (Jan 23, 2014)

> The exotic vet clearly knew less about rats than the cat and dog vet. She said he probably had a virus but was giving him antibiotics as a precaution (she knew his treatment history), and didn't say to bring him back if it doesn't work. This is after I told her I was worried it was a mild myco flare-up and that his condition had been the same for over a month.


I'm sorry that you're experiencing something similar, it really can be quite stressful. I don't know much about the issues with medication in drinking water but It seems like things are getting a little tense on this thread. It can be a sensitive subject but lets try to discuss this in a friendly way. 



> All it requires is knowing how to ask your vet the right questions. The main point of the post was just that, people need to know how to talk to their vet and not be afraid to ask for something different or a different method of administering medications.


I will admit I get extremely anxious about speaking up and asking the vet for an alternative treatment in case i come off as disrespectful or rude. I did ask for a longer course which got me from 7 days to 10 but that was as far as he was willing to stretch it. He asked all the right questions like what bedding i'm using but said he couldn't actually diagnose whether it was a myco flare up, a bacterial infection or viral. 

I've been trying to work out if ordering online from the US will save me money or not. I can get much more but the postage along will cost me around $50. Unfortunately my work contract just ended and i'm flooded with A Level work, I put aside a couple of hundred pounds for vet treatments but Tyrion's draining my savings pretty quickly. :/


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## aoinezumi (Dec 6, 2014)

I didn't mean to say that she was not knowledgeable about medication. I was upset about having to separate my rats simply to medicate when I could have just given him the medicine in his food and kept them together :/ I too have issues speaking up about what I want and always tend to go with whatever they say. I want to go back and have a friend help me explain what I would like with in treating my pet.


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