# High pitch wet sneeze



## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi all,

One of my girls, age 6-7 weeks has been having what has been told to me as being wet sneezes. They are high pitched and rather worrying. Everything about her is normal: eating, active, etc. it has been happening for over a day. Took her to vet today and prescribed me antibiotics incase it's myco. Chest is clear. Has been having the odd redness around nostrils. Her sister is ok.

Have been thinking maybe it's allergies.. Not sure what it could be. 

Have attached a pic of a spray I have used twice on the fleece in the last 5 days.. Has anyone had a problem with this or anything like it? I will stop using it in case it's the culprit.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

That totally could be the spray! Rats are super sensitive to any perfum or scent. You even need to use scent free laundry detergent. No air freshener or candles, or smoking around your rats either.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

I can't find the ingredients to the spray. Does it say non toxic and free of scents.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It says fresh scent on the bottle at the bottom right. So not good to use anywhere near the rats, much less so directly on the fleece.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. Yes it was scented, even to my nose!! How could they sell such a thing! I'm a first time rat owner so I guess they sell them knowing people like me would buy it. Hoping for her symptoms to subside


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

As a general rule, stay far, far away from *anything* Hartz. 

Yeah, it's cheap, but it's like I always say, "You'll usually get exactly what you pay for."

I'll spare everyone the graphic details, but if you want to know why I avoid Hartz products like the plague, look up "Hartz chemical burn". Consider yourself warned - it gets gruesome.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi all again - just an update, she's still sneezing.

I have changed the fleece and stopped using the spray. She is also on antibiotics incase of myco - she is nowhere near as active as her sister but maybe just a personality thing. Still eating but seemingly a bit lethargic... Trying to minimise dust. 

Is there anything else in the cage that you think may be setting her off:

I have a straw hut, one those mineral blocks, hammock... Nothing else out of the ordinary. I just feel bad whenever she lets out a sneeze . Thanks!

No one here is a smoker or uses any distinct perfume or cologne


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Update again: Rat not lethargic, was playing and running around cage last night, just more subdued than her sister...

Been giving her antibiotics. The sneezes sound far less severe than when they first appeared (which was associated with a squeak). Now they're just soft but very frequent.

Hoping to hear of other similar experiences with young rats.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I think the straw hut might be bad too. Is it the kind that is red/brownish and supposedly safe to chew? Those contain pine and pine is really bad for a rat respiratory system. Rats sense of smell is so much more acute than ours so that is why you need to be super careful with any scents or perfume. Use "clear and free" detergent only. Get rid of anything dusty in their cage and the room they are in.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. They like chewing on the straw... This is the problem with pet shops!! They sell bad stuff. I'll get rid of the straw hut and see how I go. Thanks


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

My last hope for what's causing this incessant sneeze in my young rat, still hoping its not URI - can someone please advise? See attached pic


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Found heaps of red stains on the fleece... Porphyrin??


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

The red stains are probably porphyrin. With that much, it sounds to me like she is definitely sick. A little bit of porphyrin every now and then isn't a cause for alarm. But if there are large amounts of it, she is definitely sick. 

I just PM'ed the best person I know of that can help you. This lady should be a rat-specific veterinarian. 

Some questions I'm pretty sure she is going to ask you,

What kind of antibiotics is she on and what is the dose?

You might also make a list of what you are feeding her, what brands. Some brands are marketed for rats by companies that have no idea what is and isn't good for rats. 

What laundry detergent do you use? 
What do you use to clean their cages? 
Are there any new household cleaners you've recently started using in the area where their cage is? 
What is in your cage that they may be chewing on?
Do you have other pets, especially if they may have any contact with your rats? 

Whatever that is in the picture, it looks like raffia to me. I don't know if it is safe for rats or not, but I've never heard of anyone using anything in the cage made of raffia. Did you buy it at a pet store?

BTW, like Ratat said, stay away from everything made by Hartz! Don't even look at it! That's how bad it is for ALL animals. I used to work with animal shelters and rescues. I've heard more than a few times of peoples pets actually dying because of using Hartz products on them. 

I don't mean to scare you, but that's how bad their stuff is. How long has it been since you last used that stuff?

IMO, the only things that should be used to clean the cage are simple, ordinary dish soap, vinegar and peroxide.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Also, hold your rat to your ear, like a telepone. Check both lungs for sounds of fluid in them. 

I know you took your rat to a vet, but since rats are not common pets, most of them don't have enough knowledge to treat them.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Knowing what antibiotics were prescribed is important, and then we can double check the dose if you give us the concentration, how often you were to give it, and for how long?


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks everyone again for your help. You're all so amazing. Yes I'm pretty sure she's sick. She's so young! Again, she's still active. When I took her to the vet, she listened to her lungs which sounded fine. I listened to her breathing this morning and it wasn't completely silent.

It has been 5 days since I have seen the vet and no improvement. I will give them another call.

The antibiotics they have her on is:

Enrotril - 25mg

Dose .03mls to the mouth TWICE daily for 7 days.

I'm worried I'm not that good at that as she's quit squirmish but I'm doing my best.

The vet said that they were reluctant to give her this certain medication because of her age (and that it is known to cause cartilage growth deficiencies in young rats) but she checked with her senior vet and put her on a low dosage. The place I took her to is an avarian and small animals specialist.

When giving her her medication this morning, she did poo on me which was extremely soft - no form at all, just a stain on my hand.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

25 mg/ml enrofloxacin? How much does she weigh?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Hmm your vet is dosing too low, they are using 5 mg/kg when you should be using 10 mg/kg. If you are going to use an antibiotic it's best to use a effective dosage. You can give your rat a dose of 0.06 ml twice a day.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

According to RatGuide, Eurofloxacin dose is 2.5mg/kg to 10mg/kg every 12 hours. So there is a chance that your rat needs another antibiotic on top of the Eurofloxacin. http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/enrofloxacin_baytril.php


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

If I remember correctly, a little more oatmeal in their diet will improve the stool quality.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

She weighs around 60 grams. She was worried about giving too much for her as apparently it's not good for young ones and at the time weren't sure if allergies or bacterial infection. I'll give her abit more tonight and take her back to vet tomorrow


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

She is so tiny I'm assuming she was already sick when you bought her then, it isn't uncommon at all. Keep us updated.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thank you!! I certainly will. I hope to help others who are ever in this situation


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

Oh my gosh, she really is small. Hopefully everything works out and she makes a full recovery.  It sucks when they get sick so young.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi all! Update: took her to vet. She is now 90 grams. He listened to her breathing and said its a bit crackly. He gave her an injection - don't know what it's called but im sure you guys will know all about it. Was really painful and she screamed  bled abit but hope she'll be ok. 

He told me to up the antibiotics to 0.05, and to replace fleece with newspaper and change it everyday.

I will keep you updated on her progress. Her sister seems fine so far.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Poor little wee, you might want to give her Ensure to keep the weight on her. As for the recommended dosage on ratguide, I have to talk to Karen (who runs it) as to why 2.5 mg./kg is even on there. I would use 5 Mg/kg to prevent infection and 10-15 mg/kg for an active infection. We recommend 15 mg/kg on RRLWK as a more effective enrofloxacin dose.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

With your girl being really tiny at 60 grams your vets are dosing her at 20 mg/kg right now.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

^is that good? I just hope she gets better


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Also, how contagious is the myco flare up - will she affect her sister?

Update: she sneezing now too!  I administered some of the antibiotics but will call vet tomorrow for more advice


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

How long have you been medicating now? is she getting the full dose each time? Have you missed any doses?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Also, how contagious is the myco flare up - will she affect her sister?Update: she sneezing now too!  I administered some of the antibiotics but will call vet tomorrow for more advice


All rats have mycoplasma. It is only when a rat's immune system gets weak that a flare up can shows up. Sometime a rat gets a secondary respiratory infection that get their immune system weak or any other infections for that matter. So to answer your question a mycoplasma flare up is not contagious but a secondary respiratory infection would be. If you didn't miss any doses, your rat might need more than 1 antibiotic for her Myco flare up or she might have a secondary respiratory infection too.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Been medicating nearly a week - since yesterday have given .05 ml twice a day. There was one that I missed early on (which I'm bummed about)

She's just so young. I don't get it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

If you got her from a pet store, what you are going through is quite common. Pet store rats are well known for being sicker than well bred rats from good breeders. Not all breeders are good, not all pet store rats are sick though. I know it is not helping you now, but understanding that you haven't made your rat sick might. I would add another antibiotic for mycoplasma or maybe amoxicillin in case you are dealing with a secondary respiratory infection too. There are other antibiotics for secondary respiratory infections too, your vet would know what to try next. Is your vet a good rat vet? It is quite difficult to find rat savvy vets, that's why I'm asking.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. I got them from a breeder - but probably evidently one who is not so good. The vet I'm taking them to is a specialist bird and exotic pets vet. I am going to call them today regarding the antibiotics and ask about secondary infection.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Update: so I went to the vet who said I should keep treating them both for myco as it is the most likely cause, so now they are both on 0.05ml enrotril twice a day... I don't know tbh.

How long should I take to see symptoms subside??


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Update: so I went to the vet who said I should keep treating them both for myco as it is the most likely cause, so now they are both on 0.05ml enrotril twice a day... I don't know tbh.How long should I take to see symptoms subside??


It should be better within 3 days if she was just started on it, but since she had that med for over a week now, I don't know. Give it 3 days anyway with the higher dosage as I agree that the previous dosage was too low.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. Will give them both the higher dosage and monitor for the next few days. Still both active and love eating.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Cloyphish said:


> Thanks. I got them from a breeder - but probably evidently one who is not so good. The vet I'm taking them to is a specialist bird and exotic pets vet. I am going to call them today regarding the antibiotics and ask about secondary infection.


It really doesn't matter what breeder you go to because ultimately, unless you get your rats out of a lab, you're almost guaranteed to get myco.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Well technically myco is contagious but you can't infect a rat that is already infected, and all pet rats are infected.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes and mycoplasma is never a problem unless the rat's immune system gets compromised. If a rat immune system gets compromised the mycoplasma bacteria takes over and you get a Myco flare up.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi all - I just feel like she's getting worse. Still acting normal, eating, drinking and active - but still so much sneezing and crackly breathing... I really don't know what the outcome is going to be here  the antibiotics don't seem to be working at all!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok you need a different antibiotic, now. Like doxycycline and Baytril or doxycycline and amoxycillin. If it is a secondary respiratory infection Baytril and doxy WON'T help, amoxycillin will. They are other choices, but those are the one I'm familiar with. Here are a list of other antibiotics used in respiratory infections in rats: http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Print that list of rat safe antibiotics and go to your vet with it. What you have won't work because if it was to work it would have worked by now. I'm so sorry you are going through this


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. I think the vet gave her an injection of doxycycline on Monday. I just hate to be giving her these antibiotics if they're doing nothing. The vet said he'd rather be treating her for myco because it's more likely...


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Thanks. I think the vet gave her an injection of doxycycline on Monday. I just hate to be giving her these antibiotics if they're doing nothing. The vet said he'd rather be treating her for myco because it's more likely...


Yes it is more likely but if she isn't better it might be something else. Again doxy will do nothing if it is a secondary respiratory infection. It is actually recommended to start with amox even if less likely because a secondary respiratory infection will kill a rat faster than mycoplasma.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

That's a worry... I will take her to vet tomorrow... That being said she's been on the higher dose of antibiotics for 4 days and I've seen no improvement... If anything it has gotten worse.... Sh Ile I have seen an improvement?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes you definitively should have seen an improvement by now. Print the list of antibiotics and ask for another antibiotic that treats Myco and also one that treats a secondary respiratory infection. Hope it goes well. Fingers crossed.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Yes you definitively should have seen an improvement by now. Print the list of antibiotics and ask for another antibiotic that treats Myco and also one that treats a secondary respiratory infection. Hope it goes well. Fingers crossed.


Thanks I'll keep you posted


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

So is it likely that if she's suffering from another infection that she's also suffering from myco?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It could be. Sometimes a rat doesn't respond well to an antibiotic because there are different strains of mycoplasma bacteria that can be responsible for myco, however it most cases it is mycoplasma pulmonis. Also if a secondary respiratory infection is going on, it doesn't mean that the rat cannot get mycoplasma down the road because of an already depressed immune system. It isn't uncommon for rats to get both at the same time, for this reason I would still treat for Myco- but I'm not a vet.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would print and read carefully this document. Underline anything that is relevant to your rat, and bring it to your vet too. A vet that sees that you are well prepared will pay better attention to your rat. http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/mycoplasma_mycoplasmosis.php


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks. This is probably why the vet was insistent on focusing on myco


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm actually quite infuriated at the moment - I just read, and am I right in saying, that young rats usually present with a secondary infection rather than myco symptoms!! I've been treating my little one with the wrong medication.. I think in essence I'm killing her based on the vets recommendation.. I'm genuinely upset... How the **** does he not know that it's more likely a secondary infection rather than myco??!!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> I'm actually quite infuriated at the moment - I just read, and am I right in saying, that young rats usually present with a secondary infection rather than myco symptoms!! I've been treating my little one with the wrong medication.. I think in essence I'm killing her based on the vets recommendation.. I'm genuinely upset... How the **** does he not know that it's more likely a secondary infection rather than myco??!!


Unfortunately many vets, even those who call themselves exotic vets, sometimes don't know much about rats. I know it is upsetting and infuriating. There is not much you can do other than to go to the vet prepared with printed info so you can ask the right questions and double check his/her diagnosis. My vet is good, yet I still go with 10-15 printed pages with me. Anyway, I hope you will be able to figure out a way to get your vet on board. Don't give up.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I just hope I haven't done irreversible damage


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

For future reference you can get amoxycillin, Baytril (Eurofloxacin) and doxycycline WITHOUT a prescription online. I have all 3 on hands in case my vet is away or whatnot. I'm never advising people to skip the vet, but if you wanted to be prepared just in case that's the way to go. If you are interested I can give you the links to where I bought them. Amox (fishmox) would be the most important anti-biote S out of the 3 to have on hands as it treats secondary respiratory infections that is those infections.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks!! That'd be great. I am in Australia though...


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I know that people in the UK aren't able to be those antibiotics on the web without a prescription...I have no idea what are the laws concerning meds online in Australia.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Yeh. I'll do my research. I know vets charge an arm and a leg for theirs


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

What's the usual dosage?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It depends. You will have to do your own compounding though, which is really easy. I use Torani syrup and the rats think it is a treat.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm heading to the vet today in around an hour - I'll let you know the outcome. I got really upset last night because even though I've only had these guys for 2 weeks, we got really close and I felt like they have warmed up to me.. I'd put my hand in the cage and they'd come up and investigate - most of the time they'd get up and crawl up my arm. I'd pick them up and there wouldn't be much resistance.

The last couple of days have been them sitting in a corner not wanting to interact with me and pretty much freaking out everytime I tried to pick them up. I felt like I took several steps backwards. I did pick them up and hung out with them for 30mins - 1 hour on my shoulder, they were on me, but everytime I went near their cage they just couldn't wait to go back in...

I kind of feel like it's not normal behaviour and they may both be sick. While one is not sneezing, she just doesn't want to have anything to do with me and sits in a corner with her eyes half open be just doesn't react when I go to touch her.. While all my focus is on the sneezing one, this one may be quite sick and I just didn't realise...


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> I'm heading to the vet today in around an hour - I'll let you know the outcome. I got really upset last night because even though I've only had these guys for 2 weeks, we got really close and I felt like they have warmed up to me.. I'd put my hand in the cage and they'd come up and investigate - most of the time they'd get up and crawl up my arm. I'd pick them up and there wouldn't be much resistance.The last couple of days have been them sitting in a corner not wanting to interact with me and pretty much freaking out everytime I tried to pick them up. I felt like I took several steps backwards. I did pick them up and hung out with them for 30mins - 1 hour on my shoulder, they were on me, but everytime I went near their cage they just couldn't wait to go back in...I kind of feel like it's not normal behaviour and they may both be sick. While one is not sneezing, she just doesn't want to have anything to do with me and sits in a corner with her eyes half open be just doesn't react when I go to touch her.. While all my focus is on the sneezing one, this one may be quite sick and I just didn't realise...


Take both to the vet with you. eyes half closed (squinting) , sitting position and hunched posture are signs of being unwell or hurting.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good luck at the vet.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Ok, so he was reluctant to give other antibiotics and insisted that enrotril was ALWAYS the first go to medicine - this conflicts with everything I have read saying amoxicillin is always the first... He reluctantly gave me augmentin and said if there's no improvement by Monday he will want to start with britanyl... 

I can't argue with him because he's a trained professional and it just doesn't seem right - he's confident it's a myco flare up and that I don't need amoxicillin or any backup amoxicillin for any point and that enrotril is always the go...

He said there's no point having the backup because they "expire in 14 days".. On a side note, the augmentin smells tasty.

I don't know. Now I'm dealing with these behaviour problems too where one of them doesn't want anything to do with me - i asked him if I could try the antibiotics on my other rat, he reluctantly said yes.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would buy the amoxycillin online now. You don't need a prescription, it is called FishMox. It is super safe anyway. It truly could save your rat's life at one point or another. Just my opinion- that's what I would do.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks I'll look it up. Hopefully they ship to Australia without prescription. For the time being the augmentin should hopefully clear it up if we dealing with another infection. If not, I'll keep going from there


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Maybe they sell it in Australia or it is called something else. It is marketed for adding to a fish tank water. It is perfectly safe for rats. I used it to prevent a secondary respiratory infection when I had a rat with congestive heart failure. Good luck. Keep us updated. Hopefully the new antibiotic will do it. As before you should see improvement in 3 days. Fingers crossed here


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks heaps!! I'll get back to you guys in 3 days to let you know the outcome


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I would buy the amoxycillin online now. You don't need a prescription, it is called FishMox. It is super safe anyway. It truly could save your rat's life at one point or another. Just my opinion- that's what I would do.


Before I make any purchases, what am I getting? how many mgs? Is it syrup, captures?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

it is capsules. Mine are 250mg. Here is the exact one I got:http://www.fishmoxfishflex.com/index.php/fish-mox-amoxicillin-30-count.html


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> it is capsules. Mine are 250mg. Here is the exact one I got:http://www.fishmoxfishflex.com/index.php/fish-mox-amoxicillin-30-count.html


Great! They're relatively cheap... I'll see what happens after conversion and shipping . So how do you use them?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Great! They're relatively cheap... I'll see what happens after conversion and shipping . So how do you use them?


I open the capsule, crush the powder with back of spoon as the powder is rather coarse, not powdery like- if that makes any sense. I mix the powder in 7.5 ml of Torani syrup. You can use 50% syrup and 50% distilled water too. Some people mix it with 10 ml instead. It is not that important as long as you take your rat's weight and calculate the appropriate dosage according to however you did your compounding. You will help you with that if needed. You can it refrigerated. I personnaly do the mix every 7-10 days to keep it fresher instead of doing many capsules all at once. Always use a new syringe or a clean and disinfected syringe as not to contaminate the med.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

googled augmentin quickly, and from what i can see it looks like it's a combo of amoxicillin and clavulanic acid. you could check the vet got the doseage right, but it seems like you have the right antibiotic finally  it seems weird he was insistant about not giving amoxicillin... while giving amoxicillin though.
no harm having some for back up though, if antibiotics weren't prescription only here i'd certainly do so. though my current vet is pretty cool, and if i call her she's happy to send some out to me with next day delivery.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Skyerobin said:


> googled augmentin quickly, and from what i can see it looks like it's a combo of amoxicillin and clavulanic acid. you could check the vet got the doseage right, but it seems like you have the right antibiotic finally  it seems weird he was insistant about not giving amoxicillin... while giving amoxicillin though.no harm having some for back up though, if antibiotics weren't prescription only here i'd certainly do so. though my current vet is pretty cool, and if i call her she's happy to send some out to me with next day delivery.


That's great news. I was about to check it out Thanks for doing it.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks again guys!! We'll see how they go in the next few days.. Here's hoping my sneezy one gets better.. Now to make them trust me more and start training them.. My arms are full of scratches. Those claws!


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Argh!!! Ordering the fish mox - $49 delivery!! (And that's US, for me thats equivalent to $67)! This medication would cost me $80AUD for 30 capsules!! I think this is out of the question


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Ok, so no improvement at all with 24 hours on the new meds.. You can see I'm getting impatient


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Ok, so no improvement at all with 24 hours on the new meds.. You can see I'm getting impatient


What's the dosage, concentration of the Augmentin you got. Please remind me of your rat's weight. Although 24h is still very early.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I'll have to double check the concentration when I get home. Giving her .05 twice a day. She's around 100 grams now


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hey the concentration is 125mg/ml.. Apparently


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I should have asked the vet, which I didn't, should I be having her on both antibiotics (for myco and secondary infection)? I feel terrible for pumping her little body with so much


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## LoveOurBabies (Feb 20, 2016)

Cloyphish said:


> I should have asked the vet, which I didn't, should I be having her on both antibiotics (for myco and secondary infection)? I feel terrible for pumping her little body with so much


Hi, Cloyphish. I'm pretty new here myself, and am full of Qs. I understand the feeling of not wanting to have to give your baby meds, but - and especially if her quality of life is good, otherwise - you need to. It's so much better to have her be healthy, than worrying unless there is a sign of worry (for instance, an allergic reaction to a medicine, if ratties can have them.) 

Do what I did. Call your vet, as soon as they open. The receptienest should be able to pull up your file with no problem, give you the correct weight (I'm not sure of her age, but 100g - if I read that right - is... extremely thin, considering the average is 350-450.) Then, ask them if she should be on both. Most likely, yes. Our girl is on Prednisone and Baytril, at the same time. 

My wife and I are seriously in debt, but our health and our animal babies health comes first. If you're having an issue with money for a vet visit, medicine, etc. here's some help (if you haven't tried these already)

Try Care Credit, I think it's called. I tried, and was denied, as my credit is too poor.

Next, see if you can move your bills over to the next month. So, if you pay on May 10th, see if you can pay on June 10th, instead. If you need a more long term situation, or don't have money right this second (like us, we spent every last bit on her exam and meds) you can try:

Pawning something. If possible, keep what you absolutely need, of course. You need to be able to take care of yourself, and your baby. But, gaming consoles, a bicycle, a musical instrument, etc. are often taken. 

Ask a family member, or friend, if you have any. My wife and I don't. People often get so confused... Try Care Credit (?), ask someone for money, etc. but, we don't HAVE any family who can help, they are retired, and they are trying their best to take care of themselves, and we don't have any friends, in our state or otherwise. I started a GoFundMe, to see if I can get ANY help, but that is a very slow process, if you get anything at all. Not to discourage you. DO try, if you can.

Finally, if you're 18+, if you can, donate plasma. I called our local center, it's right by us, and they told me I'd get $50 per donation and could donate 5x a month. That's $200 extra a month. Now, I'm terrified of shots, see a needle and almost faint, etc. but if you need to, you need to. Make sure you call and get all the info, first.

Oh, and finally finally, see if you can get a deal with your vet. Sadly, most don't seem to help people with money. But if you're lucky, maybe one can. Also, even if you can't see an exotics vet, see if there is one who isn't but will still see your girl.

I haven't read your whole thread, but this is my advice! I hope your girl will become as happy and healthy as she can.

Do everything you can, for everything you do.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

^ thanks for your advice! My rat is very young so still putting on weight and not her full size yet.

My second one is sneezing again and does not look too good. I have them both on the augmentin.. Maybe I should be on both antibiotics?? None at all?? I seriously feel like I keep on hitting road blocks. Her nose is now crusty like her sister has been. I genuinely feel like I'm killing them  they're so young and taking so much medicine and just getting sicker


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Ok - the following is a rundown of everything I have been doing and how they are because I'm in such despair and been posting so much, I'm not surprised if anyone reading this is getting confused:

- 2 weeks ago: Both female rats just over 6 weeks old. Rat 1 presents with high pitch sneezes which begin to get worse (can hear breathing)
- vet prescribes enrotril for myco flare up and says I may also give to rat 2
- Rat 2 starts presenting with mild sneezes.
- Both on enrotril, Rat 2 improves, Rat 1 does not
- Still not 100% happy about how rat 2 looks (instinct - fuzzy hair and seemingly lethargic). Both remain on enrotril.
- one week later, Not happy with rat 1 progress - vet puts up dosage.
- 5 days later, still unhappy with Rat 1 progress on enrotril, vet agrees to try augmentin for secondary infection.
- Put both on augmentin (off enrotril)
- 1.5 days later (now). No improvement. Rat 2 now sneezing a lot, Rat 1 still frequent sneezing, breathing problems (can hear the high pitch sound and rather crackly).
-Both eating, drinking and playing fine.

Setup: Cage big enough for 2 rats (in accordance those online measury things). - Used to use fleece, replaced with newspaper in accordance to vet recommendation. 
- Clean and replace newspaper once every few days or if soiled (use pee rock and litter trained well so this is rarely the case - little to no smell coming from cage at all times).
-proper ventilation in room, window with fresh air (but not too cold - I live in Australia!)
- I remain vigilant on wiping down surroundings of dust and vacuuming room.
- no use of aerosols, scented candles, smoking, etc.
- Bedding is shredded newspaper.

I will go back to vet on Monday. My biggest problem is the catylist for Rat 2's increase in symptoms - could it likely be because of new antibiotics?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

i wouldn't worry that they haven't shown improvement on the augmentin yet. i've read in a few places it can be 3-5 days before you see improvement, and that fits with my experience - usually at least 3 days before improvement. 

are you sure the augmentin is 125mg/ml though? all i could find online was 125mg/5ml, which is 25mg/ml. if it's the latter, 0.05ml contains 1.25mg, and she'd want around 2.2mg for a dose of 10mg/lb (which would be about 0.09ml), up to 11mg (50mg/lb) (according to the ratguide doseages here) which would be 0.44ml.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

They may have made a typo on the label? Are you saying that I should be giving more? They are 100grams


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Cloyphish said:


> They may have made a typo on the label? Are you saying that I should be giving more? They are 100grams


yeah, if it's the 125mg/5ml concentration. though i actually just realised i wasn't looking at doseages for amoxicillin and clavulanic acid (link here), the lowest dose suggested for that is slightly lower than just amoxicillin, at 6.25mg/lb (which would be 1.43mg, or 0.057ml for a 100g rat) so the dose isn't actually far off, looks like they opted for slightly under (0.05) rather than slightly over (0.06) the lowest dose, i'm not sure if that could be problematic or not. though higher doses (20mg/lb to 30mg/lb every 12 hours) seem to be supported too.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> yeah, if it's the 125mg/5ml concentration. though i actually just realised i wasn't looking at doseages for amoxicillin and clavulanic acid (link here), the lowest dose suggested for that is slightly lower than just amoxicillin, at 6.25mg/lb (which would be 1.43mg, or 0.057ml for a 100g rat) so the dose isn't actually far off, looks like they opted for slightly under (0.05) rather than slightly over (0.06) the lowest dose, i'm not sure if that could be problematic or not. though higher doses (20mg/lb to 30mg/lb every 12 hours) seem to be supported too.


I don't think there should be a problem if I up it to .06.. The vet was more of a fan of the enrotril and that was the dose I was giving my rats then 90g, I think he basically gave me the augmentin because I insisted, so just kept it at .05.. I took them both out to play, tbh there's much more sneezing going on in their cage than out in the loungeroom and couch when we're chilling watching tv. Maybe I'm dealing with allergies?, however there is the crusty red nostrils and found red stains on the fleece around a week ago.


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Cloyphish said:


> I don't think there should be a problem if I up it to .06.. The vet was more of a fan of the enrotril and that was the dose I was giving my rats then 90g, I think he basically gave me the augmentin because I insisted, so just kept it at .05.. I took them both out to play, tbh there's much more sneezing going on in their cage than out in the loungeroom and couch when we're chilling watching tv. Maybe I'm dealing with allergies?, however there is the crusty red nostrils and found red stains on the fleece around a week ago.


upping it to 0.06 will be fine imo. should be a more effective dose.
yeah, i've noticed that enrofloxacin seems to be the go to antibiotic for vets (that aren't exotic vets) treating rats. i think it may be the only, or one of the only, antibiotics officially licensed for rats (despite the fact practically all are tested on them), so that might be why.

i feel like it's probably more likely to be uris personally. i've noticed that with my boys, uri symptoms usually start when they're resting, and if i get them excited the sounds tend to reduce/vanish. idk why it is, but it's always made me doubt myself for a few seconds like 'did i really hear that?'. allergies apparently aren't especially common in rats, but here's a page about them if you want more info http://ratguide.com/health/upper_re...inosinusitis_allergic_rhinoconjunctivitis.php
there'd be no harm in trying to clean their environment and remove anything you think could be a problem though.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Skyerobin said:


> ]
> 
> upping it to 0.06 will be fine imo. should be a more effective dose.
> yeah, i've noticed that enrofloxacin seems to be the go to antibiotic for vets (that aren't exotic vets) treating rats. i think it may be the only, or one of the only, antibiotics officially licensed for rats (despite the fact practically all are tested on them), so that might be why.
> ...


Thanks. Yeh I've tried remove everything which I thought was a problem, even down to the fleece which I have replaced with newspaper!!


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Also, I feel like my other little girl is not eating at all .. She has just developed a more frequent sneeze. I have them both on the augmentin..


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm not sure about the newspaper being a good idea. First it must the Unl must be soy based or could be toxic. Secondly if they shred the newspaper to pieces, it creates lots of dust which will make them sneeze more. As far as alkergies are concerned, you could try Benadryl. What are you using to clean their cage?


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

I've noticed with my myco-prone rat, Merry, flare ups start once the weather starts getting colder, around the last month of autumn ands its on and off through the winter.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I'm not sure about the newspaper being a good idea. First it must the Unl must be soy based or could be toxic. Secondly if they shred the newspaper to pieces, it creates lots of dust which will make them sneeze more. As far as alkergies are concerned, you could try Benadryl. What are you using to clean their cage?


Interesting. The vet recommended the newspaper. He said that if these antibiotics don't work he wants to try Benadryl.. Is the general concensus that newspaper is bad?. They haven't started chewing it.. They've tried but nothing really much. I am providing them with shredded newspaper though. I bought a shredder just for that!!! Do You think it's creating more dust?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Cloyphish said:


> Interesting. The vet recommended the newspaper. He said that if these antibiotics don't work he wants to try Benadryl.. Is the general concensus that newspaper is bad?. They haven't started chewing it.. They've tried but nothing really much. I am providing them with shredded newspaper though. I bought a shredder just for that!!! Do You think it's creating more dust?


If the newspaper's ink is soy based than it is not bad. However, each time I provide my rats with something to shred like soy-based newspaper, or paper used in packaging, or paper bags...they will shred it to pieces and sneeze. It is a lot of fun for them but I do it always a couple times a month and take it away after a couple days as they start sleeping in it and get porphyrin around their noses. As soon as I take it out, no more porphyrin. I tried shedding used paper once and it created tons of dust. I would try a dust free litter and see if it helps.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Darn, ok.. They haven't been shredding the newspaper but I have offered them shredded newspaper, again on vet's recommendation.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi all, update:

I changed the liners back to mainly fleece. reason why vet wanted me to change it because of ammonia - I know for a fact they do any big pees on their pee rock in the litter (2 weeks in and they're very good). Stopped using shredded paper yesterday and have still been giving them their course of augmentin.

I feel like the sneezes are subsiding a little, I did not notice any porphyrin around their noses this morning.

Both active and eating.. I've done all I can to reduce the allergens. I'm not sure still if this is a myco flare up or secondary uri.. Maybe it has been allergies all along? I have the day off work today so I will strive to find a humidifier. 

Thanks all again for your help and advice


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Also, been reading horrible things about how fast the they can go down with respiratory infections.. We discussed fish mox which I'm struggling to find here in Aus, is there anything else that's good in your opinion which is something other than amoxicillin based? Thanks


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

If you're having problems finding an antibiotic, you could try using Echinacea and/or Goldenseal. Using them together is better. I've been using them for years to treat illnesses in both me and my cats with a lot of success. They work kind of like antibiotics. 

I personally always try an herbal or homeopathic remedy before resorting to modern medicine. Most of the time, a natural remedy takes care of the problem. 

Echinacea and Goldenseal are both mentioned in the Rat Guide. They both work best if they are used early on in treatment, but I've had success using it after the illness set in. 

***NOTE*** 

DO NOT use Echinacea and Goldenseal in conjunction with antibiotics. If you do try Echinacea and Goldenseal, you will want to use probiotics after treatment to restore the gut flora.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> If you're having problems finding an antibiotic, you could try using Echinacea and/or Goldenseal. Using them together is better. I've been using them for years to treat illnesses in both me and my cats with a lot of success. They work kind of like antibiotics. I personally always try an herbal or homeopathic remedy before resorting to modern medicine. Most of the time, a natural remedy takes care of the problem. Echinacea and Goldenseal are both mentioned in the Rat Guide. They both work best if they are used early on in treatment, but I've had success using it after the illness set in. ***NOTE*** DO NOT use Echinacea and Goldenseal in conjunction with antibiotics. If you do try Echinacea and Goldenseal, you will want to use probiotics after treatment to restore the gut flora.


NOT a good idea. Rat with URIs can go down really fast- it isn't uncommon for rats to die within days if not treated with antibiotics right away. Echinacea and goldenseal can be used for PREVENTION, not treatment of an already present URI or pneumonia or mycoplasma. Echinacea and goldenseal work as immune system boosters, not at all the same thing as antibiotics.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Thanks for all your advice everyone! I'm still on the antibiotics, still not sure if myco flare up or secondary uri but as I said both girls are active, eating, and drinking.. Haven't use the enrotril for a while now. I have a vaporiser on hand so gonna connect that up when I get home.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm also still getting that high pitch breathing sound...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

That *might* be scarring of the lungs from the infection, not an active infection symptom. How long have they been on antibiotics now?


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> That *might* be scarring of the lungs from the infection, not an active infection symptom. How long have they been on antibiotics now?


2 weeks but enrotril and augmentin, 1 week each as there was no change


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm running out of options. Theyre both actively sneezing. They're only 8-9 weeks old and they're sick. I've eliminated allergens as best I can, no fragrances, no smokers, using a vaporiser now! 2 different antibiotics with no improvement. They're both sneezing, one with clear breathing problems.

Both acting normal so far.. I dunno i seriously feel like I'm at a loss. I have done everything to make them comfortable. Taken them to the vet so many times they're probably sick of me.. 

Nothing has worked. I feel like the longer they keep up this sickness, the more irreversible damage that will be done.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Have you tried Benadryl? I think you mentioned it- just not sure how long (if any) you tried it. If you use Benadryl and it is allergies, the symptoms should go away or at the very least decrease considerably within 24-48 hours.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Have you tried Benadryl? I think you mentioned it- just not sure how long (if any) you tried it. If you use Benadryl and it is allergies, the symptoms should go away or at the very least decrease considerably within 24-48 hours.


Thanks. That was the vets preferred option before the augmentin. I will take them tomorrow to get that, that way we'll know for sure if it's allergies! I've done so much to eliminate them.. Not sure what else to do?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Hmmm your vet had your rats on enrotil one week then switched to augmentin for another week? No combo of abs? Was the course 1 week? If so there's your problem. Actually there's 2 problems.1) combos are much more effective and recommended with respiratory infections. I assume enrotil was first? After a week the vet shoukd have added the augmentin not switched to it.2) 1 week, even 10 days is not long enough to cure an active infection. The bare minimum is 2 weeks with 3-4 being optimal. At a week the antibiotics would have búilt up in the body enough to start fighting the infection, some improvements would be seen but stopping the abs just lets the active infection roar back to life like a fire you think is out but still has burning embers.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

I thought this might have been the case - Im gonna try to go back in there tomorrow and ask about combination. I really hope they don't die from this..they're so little, but they're still active and eating


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Cloyphish said:


> I thought this might have been the case - Im gonna try to go back in there tomorrow and ask about combination. I really hope they don't die from this..they're so little, but they're still active and eating


Oh dear they only gave you enough for 1 week each? Sigh, my guess is they also didn't dose correctly either. Do you want me to double check your old doses just in case? Need weights and concentrations (and what they told you to give, and how often).

I would ask for baytril and doxy this time, much more effective combo than clavamox and baytril.

Also are you in the US?


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## Skyerobin (Mar 31, 2016)

Cloyphish said:


> I thought this might have been the case - Im gonna try to go back in there tomorrow and ask about combination. I really hope they don't die from this..they're so little, but they're still active and eating


probably worth trying the benadryl at this point anyway imo, since you'd be able to rule out/in allergies pretty quick. though, i think you're in australia? so not sure if benadryl has the same ingredients there. in the usa the active ingredient is diphenhydramine hcl, but in the uk it's different - i ended up getting nytol (a sleeping tablet) since the active ingredient is the same, to rule out allergies in ripley.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hey, yeh I'm in Australia. I still have enough medication - for the sake of argument I can start using it straight away, but I wanna head to the vet again and see what they say. I would be happy use Benadryl, but I feel like considering I'm not so happy about the sound of their breathing that it's a myco flare up/secondary infection.. I'm doing everything I can to eliminate allergens I can't possibly think where I've gone so wrong. Every day I leave them like this I feel like I'm just making it worse.


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## Cloyphish (Apr 25, 2016)

Hello everyone. Just an update a month down the track. Ratties have been doing better. Since last time, gave them both a good dose of enrotril twice a day plus bricanyl to open up airways 3 times a day. Significantly less to no sneezing and breathing issues after that. Sneezes have just started coming back so will give medication as necessary as I don't want to overdo it. Have gotten a vaporiser aswell which is hopefully helping a little.

What's the general consensus about when I should begin to administer the enrotril again (regarding symptoms)


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