# You People Have Some Nerve



## CrazyRattieMommie (May 23, 2007)

People come to websites like this seeking help. and you jump on them because something aweful has happened out of their control. Like a femlae getting in with a male and getting preggo. It happens, yes, its bad, but why not take the exsperance and learn from it? instead of you people jumping all over the person, why not try and HELP them, let them know to feed the "soon to be mother" some good quality foods, make sure she has extra lovins and tons of nesting matirals? no, you would rather point fingers, tell the person about all the bad she/he is doing for the world. maybe they dont have the money to get an espay? i know here it cost almost 600$ for an espay! i dont knwo about any of you, but i do not have 600$ just laying around! And as far as her/him giving them to a petstore they they TRUST - dont you think thats their decission? couldnt you help them out by posting on your other rat fourms about possable babys needing adoption in that area instead of just accussing this person of being WRONG?! who knows what petstore it is, maybe its a little mom n pop petstore and it really does only sell for pets?1 yes, i know there are bad things happening to rats all around, and i feel for them, but something unfortanitly we just cant help. all we can do is donate when possable, foster when best, and love often. you all should feel ashamed of yourself for attacking someone who didnt do this on purpose. this is why i dont post on this fourm very offten, because most of you are not very nice or even helpful. you are all stuck up snobs. good day.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Do you feel better now?

Most of us just give the advice we know is best for _the rats_.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

I think you are taking the suggestions to hard and too personally. Really you come in here, and ask for help and advice and that is what you were given. I do agree an e-spay is probably a little too overboard especially if the female is in good health though but you only need to say it.

I also do agree that giveing them to a pet store is a big no no to most rat goers, but if you are going to look into proper homes first and the pet store as a last resort I don't see it as a huge deal, especially if you trust the pet store to screen the homes first. That's the thing, many people who own rats put them alone in a 10 gallon with seed mix, if you were screening you could ensure that doesn't happen. But with the pet store doing it who knows?

That's the only thing we worry about, not that they will become snake food, that they will be sold to someone who might neglect them. But yeah it is better for the pet store to sell from oops litters than a heavy rat mill so I geuss there is no win win there. Like I said, if it's a last resort I'm fine with it.

But really, how mature is it to post something like that calling everyone here stuck up snobs? People merely suggested alternative routes you may of not of thought of, I see nothing wrong with that. Again I think you were reading too far into what people were writing and taking things too personally.

Good luck with your rats, and I hope you are able to find them homes first before you take the others to the pet store and if it goes that route, I hope they luck out and find good homes that way.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I just want to say one thing.. Well maybe two.

There used to be a petstore I trusted around here to. You know what? I was wrong. The manager of one store, the owners own brother, stomped a rat to death in front of a good friend of mine. After smacking it against the wall. Because it nipped one of the employees supposedly. I saw her finger, it didn't even leave a mark! The rat had been a surrendered pet rat, when the owner could no longer keep him. Unfortunately, I found out too late to save him..

The same man refused to take a sick puppy to the vet after buying it from a breeder. He let it die after having multiple seizures in it's cage in the back room.


I did my research after hearing what he was doing. And I found that they had a gibbon monkey at another location, locked in a cage without a door. They have to lift it up with 2x4s to clean underneathe. She reaches out for her food everyday through the bars of her cage. She's been there since the 70s. And the only little window she had was taped over so no one could see in or out.

And that same store chain has been boycotted and many complaints filed against them for animal cruelty. Including for the possession of illegal animals.

You'd be suprised about what happens in places when you aren't there to witness everything. Just because you trust a store does not mean it can be an entirely different environment for animals when you are not there.

----
And all of the advice I give if for the safety and happiness of the rats involved, not for the owner's happiness. If they cannot accept that people will find what they are doing to be wrong or need improvement then they need to either toughen their skin or not ask questions they don't want our answers to.

We all want what is best for their rats. So why is such offense being taken to our advice?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

An e-spay here costs about $200+ here in my part of Canada. The cost of my ooops litter was a whole lot more than that!! Over $300 in cages alone. The e-spay suggestion is actually for the mom, the owner and the unborn babies that will most likely end up in a sad situation when they are older.

And there are some wonderful petstores out there but unlike you or a breeder they do not have anyone sign an adoption contract. They do not ensure the person will return the rat if something happens in their life. They cannot ensure that this rat will not end up in a snake's belly, rotting in a shelter waiting to die, etc. Almost ALL of my rescues came from a petstore originally. I would say more than 2/3's were about to be euthanized at a shelter.  I have 37 at the moment, soon to be 36 since I am going to have to put a tiny old neglected petstore girl to sleep today, since she was starved, kept in a tiny filthy cage all her 2 1/2 years. I have only had her for a week but the neglect destroyed her health.  Sorry I am just really upset about this wee one. 

When someone has an Ooops litter they are responsible for all those little lives and you now have to consider yourself an ethical, responsible rat rescue even if temporarily. Start putting out ads, ask a rescue nearby for an adoption contract or make your own up using theirs as the template. This will bring in serious adopters, the ones who might give your babies the wonderful lives they deserve since you decided they would have to come into this world.

We all are passionate about rats here, and tempers do flare but personal attacks are not warranted.


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## LiLmissJ_01 (Apr 25, 2007)

I really do appreciate this. Thank you very much crazyrattiemommy. There are people on here that do realize that Im doing what I can. I was really starting to wonder.

Jenn


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## renay (May 30, 2007)

Wow, I find this very immature, first of all, im pretty sure this forum was created first and formost for rats so that they can be properly treated, not for owners to feel that in doing the wrong thing they're doing something right, if you can't handle the way we give advice then don't ask for it.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

I think people on here think of the rats first because that is their love so the phrasing might be abrubt but the drive behind it is good. Maybe we could all be more carefull how we try to get points accross and inform people (remembering that causing people to disconnect and with draw will harm the rats). Also try to be open to ideas, hopefully we can meet int he middle. Not everyone will agree on everything but try something I do in situations like this-I imagine Im at work, I try to put my points across diplomaticaly even when it involves life and death, so when I apply my work attitue to other difficult situations I cause less offecnce (I hope :lol: ) Just think-"what approach could I take to convinse this person my idea is the best idea?"


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

We're not here to hand-hold, we're here to help rat owners and educate about responsible ownership.

Accidents DO happen. No one has jumped on the poster for that. However, when that happens, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that the babies are taken care of properly. As I stated in that post, there is NO way that any pet store would be as responsible enough. They do not adopt pets out, they sell them. Period. Most rescue rats ARE from pet stores. In fact, nearly all, because breeders will take back any of their rats. So it IS right for us to say, please don't give a pet store the babies. It is NOT in the best interest of the rats. Since this is a form FOR rat lovers, we are going to go with what is best for the rats, not what is best for the poster.

Also, an e-spay WAS right to mention. Although I was never given an age, it was indicated that the female is rather young. That's like an 10 year old human giving birth, that's in no way healthy, it is beyond risky and it's really not always worth the risk to the mother or babies. She stated at first that she wanted to do the best thing, and the best thing is to terminate the pregnancy. She's never given a reason why she doesn't want to, I'm going to assume it may have to do with money. However, if she can't afford an e-spay, she can't afford a litter. I've had 2 litters in my rescue, 4 weeks apart, and litters are NOT cheap. We got luckier and had smaller litters, but that was nothing but dumb luck and she may not be so lucky.

I don't really see where anyone was being "mean" or whatever. Information was given, in fact, many of her questions were answered. Just because it wasn't what the OP wanted to hear doesn't make it mean or wrong.

Just because a person doesn't listen to the advice given, or doesn't like what's being said doesn't mean nobody has a right to say it.

We are rat people. We LOVE rats. Many of us LIVE rats. We are not going to over-look something that is NOT in the best interest of the rats. If you are going to be at a rat fancier's forum, you should realize that.


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

If you don't like people being offended or tempers flaring, then starting a post titled "You People Have Some Nerve" and ending it with "you are all stuck up snobs" and the smart alecky "good day" is not the way to do it, especially when you were not affected by that thread and those responses at all.

Nobody was attacking, nor were they sugar-coating. Everybody says their opinions about what is best for the rats. This is not a forum for people to be making mistakes and then be told that they're doing great, it's a forum where if somebody is wrong, they are told so and they are told how to fix it. 

If people don't like how the advice is given, then they either need to not ask/bring it up or get a thicker skin. People here love rats and we know we can't save them all, so we do all that we can to help those we can. 

If you can't afford an e-spay then you can't afford a litter. What if your doe has problems and needs a vet? What if the babies need a vet? What if the babies need you because the doe didn't make it? If you can't afford to do what needs to be done then you should only have one sex, make sure they can't get out of their cages, put separate sexes in seperate rooms, something to make sure that there are no pregnancies. 

I'm sorry if you don't like how advice is given, but this is a rat lover's forum so the rat's best interest is taken to heart and that is reflected in the posts. To quote one of the best endings to a post I've seen from Kimmiekins,

"We are rat people. We LOVE rats. Many of us LIVE rats. We are not going to over-look something that is NOT in the best interest of the rats. If you are going to be at a rat fancier's forum, you should realize that."


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

Honestly, I'm not here to coddle people. I don't particularly care about anyone's delicate little feelings. I'm far more interested in providing correct information that benefit the animals. 

It's the rats that I care about, not their care takers. Because really, if their owners were good owners, they would be more concerned with the proper care of their animals then about if they've been offended or not. 

I'm never intentionally rude, but I sometimes am blunt. But I put forth the needed information and voice my opinions where I want to. That what the forum is here for. 

In the case of 'accidental pregnancies' - I really think that there is no such thing. If you can't keep your males and females separated, then you don't need to keep both sexes. It's not that hard. But as people pointed out, this is a place for rat lovers. Regardless of the situation, I do my best to help.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

But it is useful to remember that telling the THING THEY DONT WANT TO HEAR in the WAY THEY WANT TO HEAR IT is the best way to get them to take the best action. I suppose it is a form of manupulation and spin-packaging something in a way that the target will accept what is being delivered-buisnes does it all the time-dedicated rat fancyers are in the buisness of selling good rat care to the masses


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## renay (May 30, 2007)

i agree with you ladylady but i think the point that most of us are getting across is that we shouldn't have to sugar coat it for people, its like hello welcome to the real world, you make a mistake own up to it and correct it. Far too many people are cruel and injust to animals because they're ignorant and uneducated on how to properly care for their pets... I speak whats on my mind when its on my mind, and I generally don't mean to come across as rude, but sometimes people need a bit of a wake up call.


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

I agree renay. I'm not rude, but I'm not going to coddle people. Tact is important, but after that, it's getting the informations across that counts.


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

I think saying "you are all stuck up snobs" is a bit presumptuous, because there are many of us who give information without being rude. However, I often read threads and see a comment someone has posted that's excessively harsh and rude. I want to smack those people over the head, because I dealt with the same type of situation when I came to the rat forums.

I thought I had an accidental pregnancy (this was on goosemoose), as the result of my boyfriend convincing me that they weren't fertile until much older than 5 wks and sticking my baby girl in the boy's cage (where she was humped by her father). I was actually accused of *wanting* her to be pregnant by another member, and I got many, many horrible comments about how irresponsible I was for believing someone who had owned rats for years, etc. I actually left the community for a while, because I was so offended. I'm on a lot of other message boards for art, and I've never encountered a community that can be as rude and downright mean at times. In fact, the art boards have unbelievably nice, generous people who have sent me gifts for no apparent reason, and are willing to bend over backwards to help you out. Talk about a serious contrast!

So yeah, there are some big @$$holes. But there are a lot of us who are not. Basically, you just have to ignore them and get used to the fact that some people appear to get off on glorifying their know-it-all nature and playing holier-than-thou.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

:lol: nicely put

I have to agree-of all the differant community forums im on rat fancyers are the most abrupt

I think both "sides" could do things differentlly


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

this is a risky subject. its just begging for people to start flaming. however, so far everyone seems to be conducting themselves in a mannerly way and actually staying nicely on topic. however, the mintue that changes this topic will be locked. i'm not saying any of you have given me any reason to think that will for sure happen but given the topic and how people are i can see it possibly happening. so, keep to topic, don't get personal with others and above all keep it PG and this topic will continue happily, otherwise it will be locked.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

ladylady said:


> I think both "sides" could do things differentlly


Care to elaborate so we may all better ourselves?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

from previous posts i think she's implying that the people we talk to should have a bit thicker skin and we should be a bit more careful on how we word our opinions and how fast we jump to conclusions. if that is what she meant i have to agree with her. there needs to be a better middle ground then what we have going so far. mind you, we do have our times when we are more considerate and/or cautious in our wording and then there's times when everyone is at everyone else's throat. it really all depends on the current atmoshpere of the forum, who is here at the time and what has recently been discussed. it sucks for the person on the recieving end of our bad days but everyone has them, even forums. that's not really a good excuse for poor manners but it is a possible reason.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

There's no such thing as excuses, just reasons.


I've tried to tell my parents that for years, but they don't quite get it. xD


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

I think no matter how people say things (either side) there is no way everyone is going to be happy.

You can't please everyone. As long as no one is being rude or outright disrespectful, then I don't see a problem. 

I'll be the first to admit that I lose my cool, but sometimes I get exasperated with people. It seems like a lot of the people who cry that "you hurt my feelings" & "you guys are mean" are the same ones that don't own up to their mistakes, take little to no responsibility for their actions, and seem to want a cheer leading squad rather then information.

I've *very* rarely seen people be 'mean' right from the start. Most people here try to help out and/or offer advice in the nicest way possible, and usually the origional posters are glad for the assistance. It's when the poster starts in with the standard litany of self righteous defense that people seem to get pissed. I can't say that I blame them.

A lot of the problems, espicially with 'accidental' litters, come from lack of common sense. Yes, there are some that just happen, but in general, it seems most of them stem from stupid mistakes. If they are obviously just bad handling of the animals (letting boys and girls play together, improperly securing cages, etc.) you can be sure people are going to tell you how to not let that happen again. This places blame, and people don't like to hear that it is their fault. Well boo hoo.

I'm not perfect by ANY means, but I do know that my animals are my responsibility. When I took them into my care I made it myself accountable for their health and well being for the rest of their lives. If I was doing something stupid, or endangering my rats in any way, and someone picked up on it, I would expect that person to let me know. It's not about my warm and fluffy little feelings, it is about my my rats, and my responsibility to provide them with the best quality of life possible, including adequate & safe caging, exercise, nutrition and vet care. When people don't realize that that is what owning a pet, even a rat, means, it really does make me ill.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Yes twitch and also that newbies who are uninformed could be more receptive to advice, however they are just that, newbies, and they will keep coming, keep being surprised they are doing things wrong and there will allways be those of them that cant take critisism


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## mopydream44 (Jun 10, 2007)

you mentioned you were on art forums, can you message me with the names of one's you're on?

p.s. sorry i thought i posted after the right person but there were several posts i didn't see because i didn't refresh!


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## chrisstrikeagain (Apr 10, 2007)

=] everybody cheer up and stop ths tension and fighting .


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

...No on is fighting, or sad for that matter. o.0

Just because people are exchanging their opinions on a subject doesn't mean we are fighting.


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## Lestette (Jun 16, 2007)

I, personally, don't understand why this topic was even started. I did see the initial post where the suggestion of a espay was thrown out as a suggestion... but it was done in good measure. 
If you believe that people giving advice that is in the best interest of the rat, makes these knowledgeable AND considerate people "stuck up snobs" then I believe you need to look up the definition of those words, because yours obviously differs from mine.
I believe that if you look at the title of this site it's called, "Rat Forums" which is an obivious indication that this is a place for rat information, not schooling of what is morally right or wrong, that's not what we are here for. This place is strictly here for the CORRECT/ACCURATE exchange of information between experienced rat owners and new-comers alike. If a mistake or accident is made, then advice will come in on how to rectify the situation. If it is not to your liking, than I am sure that I am sorry, but what is to your liking may perhaps not be in the best interest of the rat in question. Clearly these people here would not offer advice with the intention of harming ANY rat, so why is it that their advice is being punished?

If you don't like what was said, fine... That's your prerogative to feel that way. But don't punish or insult these people for doing what little they can (meaning written words of wisdom can only go so far) to help people in need.
I think I've said all I can on the subject... personally I'm insulted that you would make such a bold comment to the general public of this site. It is YOU who infact should be ashamed of yourself.


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## CrazyRattieMommie (May 23, 2007)

I am not going to be ashamed of myself for speaking my mind and telling it like it is. I BREED, everyone here would call me a backyard breeder because my rats dont have 10 pages of pedagree's, and i didnt study under a breeder for 5+years, but you knwo what.. how did those breeders get started? and the breeders befor them? has anyone thought baout this? people have to start from somewhere, and as long as it is responsable, planned and you have the room to keep the little ratties that dont get adopted out right away, i dont see a problem with it. Yes, accedents happen such as death to a baby, or a mom, its sad, it hurts, you cry, you get over it and move on to figur out WHAt happened and what you can do to better the genetics. I actually liked this fourm untell about a month ago, when i seen people attacking other people for breeding or letting the accedentle "mating" go to full term. this fourm would be much more livly if you guys would just accept that people breed and accedents happen. just give advise and try and help as much as you can, dont attack just because your beleifs are not to breed, that is your own standard, not everyone elses. I do apologise, this first post i made is NOt twards everyone, you knwo who you are. I hope this helps clear up some things.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

I have yet to see someone _attacked_ for an accidental breeding. Part of learning is realizing and owning up to your mistake, then comes the 'healing'(in this case, advice on what to do).

Most people asking for advice get upset because they don't get exactly what they're looking for, and I get upset when they begin a hissy fit over that. Unfortuantely, most people don't have logic enough to quietly go somewhere else to get what they want or look for the information themselves through research. No, most people would rather go out with a bang and some big, (what they think is)an end-all post insulting us and claiming we attacked them...


No. We do not attack. We express our opinions, and it just so happens some of us don't approve of accidental litters(no matter what). We aren't attacking anyone, we're just stating we think it's wrong.

Ugh...I can't really think of anything else to say...someone else finish up for me...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

CrazyRattieMommie said:


> I BREED, everyone here would call me a backyard breeder because my rats dont have 10 pages of pedagree's, and i didnt study under a breeder for 5+years, but you knwo what.. how did those breeders get started?


Umm the good breeders started by being mentored under a responsible/ethical breeder, before being given a pair to start their rattery with. Even then the mentor is/should be heavily involved in every step of the process and decision-making. Why go back years and start from scratch when you can continue the good gene pools being worked on now. A breeder has a huge responsibility to improve the rat fancy not just bring litters into the world that could be replacing rats that might have been adopted out of rescues and shelters.

I approve of backyard breeders even less than accidental litters. I myself had an accidental litter (girl was found outside, dropped off at a shelter, and I adopted her thinking I was "safe"). I understand they happen, but they are a ton of work and money and STRESS, and I just want to reiterate that to someone who is thinking it would be easier to have the litter than prevent it altogether (yes, I AM the one who suggested an e-spay).


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## TEKRats (Jun 18, 2007)

Admitted backyard breeder = someone who is too lazy to do it the right way. 
If you don't want to do something the correct (and ethical way), especially when it involves living, breathing things, then don't do it at all. It's incredibly selfish.

This is an entirely different case than someone having an accidental litter. I have read back and seen folks offer helpful advice and suggestions when that situation comes up.


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

TEKRats said:


> Admitted backyard breeder = someone who is too lazy to do it the right way.
> If you don't want to do something the correct (and ethical way), especially when it involves living, breathing things, then don't do it at all. It's incredibly selfish.
> 
> This is an entirely different case than someone having an accidental litter. I have read back and seen folks offer helpful advice and suggestions when that situation comes up.


EXACTLY. I plan on breeding one day as well. But you can be damned sure that I will have rats of good stock when I do it, have a goal in mind, and do it responsibly. 

It isn't responsible just to throw rats together to learn about genetics, use pet shop rats or other animals where you don't know the background, or just to produce "Pretty babies". I don't think anyone here would take offense to any ethical breeding. It's the BYB that people don't like, and that makes absolute and perfect sense.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

TEKRats said:


> Admitted backyard breeder = someone who is too lazy to do it the right way.



Very nice way of putting it!


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

I didn't really have much against backyard breeders until I came in contact with a pedigree rat. All of mine were previously from pet stores or are BYB from pet-store stock, and are *totally* inferior animals in comparison to the well-bred rats. 

The well-bred ones generally have nicer fur, stronger, healthier builds, great dispositions, are less prone to cancer, myco, etc. because they have specifically been bred for countless generations to be awesome animals.

You just can't start with pet store stock and come up with animals like that. Sure, you can breed some cute little animals that might make good pets. But the pedigree rat is usually far superior.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I do rat rescue and I see what some people end up with when they get a rat from a petstore or from a BYB. And that is often the reason they end up with me- bad health, bad disposition, failure to screen the owner before selling, etc. They are here because the alternative is a feeder bin.

I got my first two pedigreed rats last fall and have fallen in love with them. I look at those in the pedstore and think, "Yeah they are cute, but I will get such a better, healthier companion from a breeder." And I've managed to leave all of those cute faces behind with that knowledge. You can't save them all and I don't want to support such a business.

I've been preparing to start a breeding program for quite a while. We've slowly bought the needed cages, supplies, etc. while doing all the research needed. And I have arranged with a breeder to be mentored via the internet since she's 6 hrs. away. But I am getting my first breeding buck from her and will probably start with one of the two pedigreed females I have here because I think they are up to standard.

Why do it the wrong way?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i understand that topics will evolve and go on tangents however i'm leary of letting this one go that route. its already a touchy subject so please try in the next few posts to get back to the original topic of online forum ettiqutte in rat forums. 

if you would like to discuss general breeding ethics please do so in its own topic and without any direct reference to anyone else (no one saying what so and so is doing is wrong). you may state general opinions on different procedures and types of breeders only unless asked directly for advice by a breeder *.

*used here to describe anyone with purposeful intention to breed their rats.


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