# Very confused about lab blocks....



## flamincomet (Jul 15, 2009)

Hello, I'll be getting 2 baby rats in August, these will be my first rats. I've been researching online what is the best diet to feed, and am very confused as to why lab blocks are always recommended... I have 2 cats and a dog, and I feed them a raw natural diet. One cat gets whole prey, and the other gets a prey model diet, as does the dog. I have seen so many benefits from feeding them what they were designed to eat, instead of the highly processed kibble that is always recommended, and was excited to try something like this with my new ratties.
Does anyone here feed a natural diet to their rats? Or has anyone tried and not liked the results? Any links to info on how to feed a natural diet would be highly appreciated also.

Thanks,
Autumn


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

Hi Autumn,

I would also love to see this answered  Have you tried searching the forums (at the stop, theres a search thingy) for natural or raw diet? I haven't looked yet but I would certainly like to as soon as Im done working. I'll be keeping an eye on this topic- hopefully someone with experience or information will drop in and offer advice.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

I was just looking online and I came across this. It's one step closer to natural but certainly isn't raw. Just wanted to post it in case anyone was interested. Here's the link: http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html


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## JadeAmber (Jul 30, 2007)

Here are some thoughts:

You might want to keep in mind how the rats that we keep as pets came to be. They are no longer wild. Most pet rats come from lines that were specifically bred. When scientists bred rats (and other animals) for testing, they wanted ones that had good temperments so handling would be easier. In doing this, they actually bred out some of the things that allowed rats to live healthy lives in the "outside world". For example: Many of us have read about keeping our rats at temeratures around 72 degrees. Yet, wild rats are able to live in many countries and many climates. So...even though that is not a diet related thing, it's just something to think about when pondering "To lab block, or not to lab block".

Also:
Lab blocks make it so the rat has to eat many different things not just pick out the things they want (in a lot of mixes they seem to go for the seeds, which I hear are kind of like french fries fo them)

Lab blocks are also hard, so chewing them helps keep the teeth short.

I feed my guys lab blocks, but I suppliment this diet with things like carrots, melon, turkey (not deli meats which have lots of grossness in them), bits of bread, etc.

Depending if you get males or females, you probably will want to adjust their diet accordingly. For example: Males can get awefully greasy with too much protien (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) in their diet. I've also heard something about how oranges are really bad for males.

I think that if you want to go for the all natural diet, you should go for it. I've tried lots of things with my guys and have just ended up with the lab-block-and-fresh-stuff-diet. I'm not sure if any of this was helpful, but thought I would just give you some food for thought.


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## flamincomet (Jul 15, 2009)

Breeding for outside appearances doesn't necessarily change the inside. Look at dogs, we have bred them into many more shapes and sizes than rats, and they are still considered a sub-species of the wolf! Their digestive system hasn't changed at all from wolves, and feeding them a diet similar to wolves is still what's best for them (Mother nature knows best, IMO).

I'm just skeptical that feeding them a highly processed lab block which has high amounts (In the one that I have seen most recommended) of corn is good for them. Rats' diets are supposed to be similar to ours, from what I've been reading.... and WE can't even digest corn, lol.

I have seen so many positive results from feeding my current pets naturally, and have heard so many positive things from other raw feeders that I can't help but question this mentality. Improved quality of life and a longer lifespan are some of the benefits that are widely experienced, wouldn't you (general you) want that for your own rat(s) if that's how feeding this way would effect them?

Just some of my thoughts, I'm not trying to start a debate or cause problems 

Autumn


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

I would like to bring a few ideas to the attention of the post-

First off, if rats have similar needs (speaking in terms of diet) as we people do, then it's easy to state that all people have different needs so why wouldn't rats differ also? If you have a fat overweight rat who likes to sleep all day, why would he get the same diet and have the same nutritional needs as a rat who is very active and skinny? Feeding lab blocks seems to completely lump all rats into once category.

I completely agree about the corn thing as well. It's just used as a cheap a filler. It has essentially NO nutritional value and is not digestible. It's commonly used in pet products.

Flamincomet, you might appreciate my column I wrote on the modern day dog food industry. If you would like to read it (and pick it apart or add anything!) please feel free. I'm always looking for feedback. I am a self employed dog groomer and it's on my website under "Health & Safety Info". I reccomend a few different foods that I personally feel are a MUCH better alternative to the regular dog food you'd purchase at the store.

If you could write something about your raw diet and how it works I'd love to add it onto the site. I'm always looking for firsthand accounts of things like that. Let me know what you think.

www.adogsdelight.net


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## flamincomet (Jul 15, 2009)

Chiklet, very good points. I get very annoyed also by the "complete and balanced" diet propaganda. Yes it is very important to make sure your animal's diet is balanced, but it does not need to be balanced in EVERY meal. Prey model (Not BARF) feeders believe in balance over time, usually 1-2 weeks the diet comes to a circle and the requirements are met. But it's very hard to convince others to get out of the mentality that their animal won't keel over and die if their meals don't have 100% of the nutrients the AAFCO says they need daily. (BTW the AAFCO didn't even know that cats required taurine in their diet until fairly recently. Taurine is so vital to a cat's diet that they will eventually go blind due to deficiencies.) Taurine is found in high abundance in raw meat. What else is the AAFCO missing that mother nature already provides?

I'd be more than happy to give you any info you need about feeding raw. Just let me know what you are interested in.

Some of the benefits I have noticed in my cats is:
More energy (I've never seen them run and frolic like they do now!!)
NO smell to their stool (VERY nice for indoor litter boxes!)
LESS stool (They poop maybe once a day, sometimes once every other day)
Prevention of tarter build-up on my younger cat (His teeth are whiter than mine....)
Reduction of tarter on my older rescue cat (And they are still continuing to improve)
Improved coat quality
Less shedding
Lack of Dehydration (Most cats on kibble are dehydrated, very unhealthy for the kidneys!)

Some of the benefits I've noticed in my dog is:
Less hyper (A good challenging raw meaty bone is great for mental stimulation)
Small nearly odorless stool that crumbles away after a day or two in the sun
Less stool (She only poops once a day, if that, and it is a very small amount)
Elimination of tarter build-up
Lack of Dehydration (She gets most of the moisture from her food like she is supposed to, so rarely drinks from the water bowl)
Little to no doggie odor
Little to no doggie breath (Depending on what she just ate XD)
Improved coat quality
(Haven't noticed lack of shedding on her part tbh, but she is blowing her coat right now sooo... lol)

And I know there are other things I am forgetting, this is just what I can think of off the top of my head.

I read the column on your webpage (I'm a dog groomer also BTW  ) and it's very good. I would also mention that many vets get a kick-back from selling foods such as Science Diet. I've confronted vets about Science Diet before. One in particular comes to mind. I was arguing with him after mentioning my dog was on raw, he was being very stubborn about dogs being omnivores (I am of the opinion they are opportunistic carnivores) and finally I said, "Ok, but cats are obligate carnivores, right?" "Yes of course." "So. Why is the first ingredient in ALL of the science diet foods for cats CORN??" He didn't have a response of course. Because it makes no sense. SCIENCE Diet makes no sense.

Also, I would make sure you are very particular about which dog foods to recommend. For example, Wellness CORE is amazing, but other Wellness dog foods I would not recommend. I am also not a fan of Natural Balance, it has too low of meat content for my liking. (In some of the formulas potato is the first ingredient) Other foods I would recommend to people who are not able to or interested in raw is ZiwiPeak and Orijen.

Anyways, I'm not meaning to get off topic, and I DO realize this is a rat forum  I would still love to hear opinions from people who have fed a more natural diet to their rats and the results they found.

Autumn


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## flamincomet (Jul 15, 2009)

BUMP


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## areoseek (Feb 17, 2008)

I feed My Rats Bones lab blocks and Veggies. With the occasional pieces of steak and chicken. They are Very healthy (minus a respertory infection from My Brother not cleaning the cage while i was gone)

they also love unsalted crackers


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Lab blocks ensure they have the nutrients they need at all times. Its balanced adn complete and not as expensive as other alternatives. However most people do give their rats produce (mine get it everyday) with occasional meat and nuts.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

If lab blocks are complete nutrition wise, why is it not reccomended to feed ONLY lab blocks then? SO many people discourage it and say it needs to be supplemented with other food sources.

I love the idea of a 'raw' diet and hopefully some of us can come up with a formula of sorts that will create a cycle of complete nutrition whether it be over the period of a week or whatnot.

Lab blocks were formulated to feed lab animals. They are inexpensive to buy, easy to feed, and are available to buy in mass quantity. How can we really argue that something like a block of food would be better to feed than fresh wholesome foods? Do lab blocks ever 'go bad' or are they packed full of preseervatives to keep the food from spoiling?

I don't care if a fresh whole food diet costs more, I'm more concerned about feeding my rats the most healthy diet available.

I think more people should also look into the "Paleolithic" diet (for people). If you read about that maybe you'll understand how I see things better.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

> If lab blocks are complete nutrition wise, why is it not reccomended to feed ONLY lab blocks then? SO many people discourage it and say it needs to be supplemented with other food sources.


My only concern with doing this (and giving them nothing but) would be variety. Rats love variety in their diet as much as we do. Eating only lab blocks is the equivalent of, say, us eating the same flavoured soup for every meal


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

Call me crazy but if lab blocks are nutritionally complete and balanced, wouldn't feeding them other things in addition to it throw off the balance, regardless of whether it offered variety?

Like, lets say the lab blocks have 100% daily value of a particular vitamin in them and you give your rat a few veggies containing the same vitamin... wouldn't they be getting too much of something?

I'm just trying to understand the thinking behind the diet needs everyone talks about. Im definitely still very much interested in a raw/natural diet.


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

I think the basic idea is to make sure they get all the nutrients they need and don't get much junk/unhealthy food. If fed mixes and they only pick out certain parts of the mix that they like, they wouldn't be getting some nutrients provided in the other parts of the mix, whereas with the "balanced" blocks the nutrients are evenly dispersed throughout. 

As for throwing off the balance, I've read that fresh foods should be about 20% of the diet with blocks 80%. So if you gave much more than the 20%, you might throw the balance off by them not eating enough of the essentials provided in the blocks, depending on how well balanced the fresh stuff is.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

so if we're assuming that lab blocks are supposed to make up 80% of their diet, then lab blocks are not nutritionally complete since there is still another 20% to make up (?)

Sorry, I'm really not trying to be a pain here! lol I'm just trying to sort things out and get everything out on the table for a civilized discussion.

I understand that with lab blocks, rats dont have a choice on picking out what they dont like- that is a good thing. I guess I would be more worried about preservatives & fillers than anything. I just don't see how a little compressed block of mixed foods can really be the best thing for them. If it were really that 'easy', why don't they make things like that for people who are picky eaters!  Wouldn't that be great! heh


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## this_wallflower (Apr 19, 2009)

Lab blocks are complete...for the average rat. So, not every rat requires the same nutritional benefits. The other 20% is for enrichment via variety. Does this mean they might get extra of some sort of vitamin? Yes. Are you going to overdose them? Not likely. Rotating what that 20% is helpful too. Too much of anything is a bad thing, everything in moderation.

I'm a fairly new rat owner, but this is how it is for other animals. 

I feed lab blocks + mix to my older rat, and just a mix to the younger rats since they had no interest in the lab blocks. They get veggies every other day, and fruit once a week. The babies are being hand tamed right now so they get quite a bit of snacks. Odie gets minimal snacks because he's a fat lazy rat  

Nutrition is about balance, and about being as "true" as possible, but being "natural" can also mean variety and being a little unbalanced (without being unhealthy) for the sake of mental enrichment. 

My horse gets a complete feed. Other owners mix their own feed, and I guess I could, but he gets a complete feed. It's what keeps weight on him since he is prone to losing weight very rapidly (ulcers). But he also gets turned out on grass for most of the day. He has to walk and graze. Does this mean that my roughage to grain ratio isn't always accurate? Yeah. I have no idea how many pounds of grass he eats each day, making it difficult to calculate what I need to give him in hay. But he gets both, because it's better for his mind and it keeps him busy. And the hay goes on the ground as much as possible so that he has to "graze" for it. I'm a horse person, so I compare a lot, but it seems to me that isn't so different from other animals.


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## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

lol thank you for the input! Always appreciated 

It's ok, I relate everything through dogs so no worries! 5 years of working in dog daycares & kennels and 2 years grooming will do that to a person. It's pretty bad when I see someone walking down the street and I recognize their dog by name LOL. Oiy.


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

> If it were really that 'easy', why don't they make things like that for people who are picky eaters!  Wouldn't that be great! heh


Yeah, I've always thought it would be great if we could get "people kibble". Just think, no cooking and cleaning up after, easy to take lunch with you, no refrigeration needed, and you could even measure out how much you need to stay at the right weight. Grocery shopping would just involve picking up a 50-lb bag every so often. ;D 

Anyway, since the rats can live on (high quality) blocks alone, they are technically nutritionally complete. That doesn't mean that blocks alone are the best or only solution for optimal health, but they are way better than the other stuff sold in pet stores. I think everyone agrees that fresh foods are very important too. Obviously if animals depended on always having some exact balance of everything, life would have died out long ago, lol.


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## aquaseafoam (Aug 3, 2009)

I find this very interesting since I also feed my 2 boxers a raw prey model diet.
You can also see this sort of trend with birds. Right now its been realized that an all seed diet is bad for them and a pelleted food is now recommended by vets. While better than solely seed, I still believe it is okay to feed seed, especially to granivores and seed eaters like budgies (parakeets). Also, fresh foods are also an important aspect for a healthy animal. I would not rely solely on a pellet for my birds either.



Lea said:


> Yeah, I've always thought it would be great if we could get "people kibble". Just think, no cooking and cleaning up after, easy to take lunch with you, no refrigeration needed, and you could even measure out how much you need to stay at the right weight. Grocery shopping would just involve picking up a 50-lb bag every so often. ;D


Oh, but there is- monkey chow! I seem to remember seeing a video diary on youtube about a guy who ate nothing but monkey chow for a week. He ended up being obsessed with real food.

As it stands I don't know much about rat nutrition, but I do plan to offer a good quality lab block plus a good quality dog food and whole wheat breads/pasta, sprouts and fresh fruits and veggies. It is much easier with carnivores, such as dogs and cats since their health basically hangs on getting enough quantity of food, no matter what animal it comes from they will be okay. Herbivores and omnivores however have to worry about the quality of the foods they eat.

I only wish I was as dedicated to my own nutrition as I was my pets!


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

LOL I had to go look up the Monkey chow videos and stay up past my bedtime watching them. 

Be careful with giving them bread-- I've read that they can choke on it, but toast is OK.


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## nikki_malicious (Jun 24, 2009)

i rarely give my rats pet store food. they eat what ever i eat almost every day. ill make oat meal for them and fruit salads and feed them that every morning, and then feed them bits of my meals through out the rest of the day. is it the healthiest thing for them? prob not. but they like the variety. and every one seems pretty healthy and okay on weight (with the acception of my chunky monkey who has head tilt currently)

also, no oranges ever! or mango for that matter. it has something in it called d-limonine which is really toxic to ratties. i also read that they cant have onion either.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

nikki_malicious said:


> i rarely give my rats pet store food. they eat what ever i eat almost every day. ill make oat meal for them and fruit salads and feed them that every morning, and then feed them bits of my meals through out the rest of the day. is it the healthiest thing for them? prob not. but they like the variety. and every one seems pretty healthy and okay on weight (with the acception of my chunky monkey who has head tilt currently)


If you know this isn't the healthiest diet for them and not meeting their dietary requirements... then I don't really understand why you aren't changing it. Rats can still have variety with a proper diet.



> also, no oranges ever! or mango for that matter. it has something in it called d-limonine which is really toxic to ratties. i also read that they cant have onion either.


"Mango - Contains d-limonene which can cause kidney cancer in male rats (Thank you Darksong17!)
Oranges - The white part on the peelings and outer layer of a peeled orange is harmful to male rats. It seems to be ok for females, but I just stay away from citrus fruits in general."

See the diet sticky thread, which is where this info is stated: http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,3079.0.html


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## nikki_malicious (Jun 24, 2009)

no no no thats not what i meant. they get a healthy variety of all sorts of foods. they get lots of veggies, fruits, grains, and other stuff. i dont give them meat because i find it makes them aggressive, but they do get a wide variety of stuff. i didnt mean to make it sound like im a bad mommy. they get different stuff every day


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