# Immersion Training - The Guide



## Rat Daddy

The Rat's Mind Set:

I've only ever seen a single case of human - wild rat introductions, and it may not be typical, but I suppose I should start there...

It was about 2 years ago and I brought my daughter to the Turtle Back Zoo in West Orange, NJ. We called ahead and were asked not to bring our shoulder rat with us, for her protection and the protection of the zoo animals. It was the only day that week that the zoo had late hours and closed pretty close to twilight. On the way out, my daughter spotted a small shadowy critter scurrying about in the ornamental shrubs planted between the zoo entrance and the parking lot. Naturally at 5 years old she was curious, moreover as a rat owner she pretty much knew what she was looking at. Moreover she wanted another rat badly, well she always want's more rats so nothing has changed there. So she asked me whether she could keep it if she could catch it and as any good father would say... "Sure, if it wants to come home with us you can certainly keep it." 

Now to be completely honest, our first rat was part-wild and I realized that there was absolutely no foreseeable outcome that would include us taking a new rat home that evening. The chances of a little girl actually (even one that smelled like a girl rat) catching a wild rat in an open area are so insignificant, that I didn't see any risk.

Then something really strange happened, rather than just bolt off the little rat ran from bush to bush and let itself be pursued. And soon a second rat joined in and then a third, fourth and so on until my little girl was functionally surrounded by a truly bazaar number of small thin lightning fast wild rats all pretty much jumping across her feet. As she would start to chase one, another would cut in front of her to distract her and she was pretty much spinning in circles, swiping at them as they leaped by. Naturally, my original assessment of the situation had clearly changed, with so many rats coming so close the chances of my daughter actually becoming hands on were becoming quite good. So I ended the game.

Still, this was phase one of immersion as done by wild rats themselves. And it looks very much like immersion as we humans provide it for our rats. My daughter who smelled very much like a female rat entered the territory of an established pack. She behaved very much like a new rat joining a pack, following the first member she met and all of the other rats popped out to meet and greet her. They stayed right in her face and kept her constantly engaged. They got closer and closer and pretty much challenged her. They were neither running away, nor were they attacking. I suppose if my daughter had sat down and acted submissively she might actually might have wound up getting groomed... But given my daughter wanted a new pet rat and not to join a new pack, that's where things would have very likely gone very wrong. 

All of the rats that participated in the experiment appeared to be young or female and I never saw a rat that might be considered an alpha giving direction, but it was getting dark and with the nature of how quickly things were evolving I was mostly focused on my daughter.

I'm also going to add that I wouldn't recommend sending your own children into a huge wild rat pack intentionally. Wild rats bite fiercely if they feel threatened and they are unimaginably fast and agile.

So there you have it... immersion is the method used by wild rats to meet. It has evolved over countless generations and it's part of every rat's firmware. When your rat first encounters you this is what he or she expects from you. Within half an hour of meeting the first foraging rat a couple of dozen members of the pack had each introduced themselves to the huge new rat in the territory and they were willing to sacrifice their normal foraging time to stay right on and right with the new potential pack mate. Introductions became the rat packs highest priority. Consider this carefully when reading forward.

The Human Mind Set:

In the example above we were dealing with very competent thinking animals. They had a very complex bond and social order. They had ritualized behavior and learned and adapted on the fly. Most importantly rats have colonized most of the world because they are intelligent animals with emotions. And rats communicate with each other and with their humans.

The number one impediment in having great pet rats is humans not realizing they have them in the first place. Having an unsocialized rat in your house is equivalent of having a human teenager that hasn't been potty trained and hasn't been taught to speak. Imagine finding out your prom date wears a diaper and doesn't recognize his or her name. How many ways can a date like this end? And how many ways are likely to be good? An unsocialized rat is a miserable rat and they have an unhappy human. If you omit teaching your baby their name, how to communicate with you and basic potty training everything else you do with them will fail. They aren't going to school, they won't have friends, they won't drive a car and they will never hold a job or raise a family of their own.

So before you begin to train your rat or rats, lets screw your head on straight. Your new rat is going to be your friend and a member of your family. He or she will learn the rules of your household, who is in charge and who his or her family is. There are no acceptable lowered expectations. 

It honestly scares me when I get inquiries that read... "I just want my rat to stop biting me", or "I just want my rat to stop being afraid of me." That's the equivalent of saying you want your prom date to be potty trained. 

Another example is the strange fellow that keeps a vicious dog in a cage he can't enter. I've actually seen this twice. In one case at a rural gas station after 10 years someone let the dog out to find out it was actually quite friendly. In the other case, the owner actually constructed a chain link box on a cement slab so the dog couldn't climb or dig out. Both dogs were quite miserable and unhandleable as long as they were caged. 

So what is the right mind set? 

First, respect your rat as a big competent intelligent and emotional being in a small package. 

Second, set your sights high. The object is to make a best furry friend and not a docile exhibit. 

Third, friendship takes time and commitment. Fish make good exhibit animals, rats and dogs do not do well without constant care, love and attention.

Fourth, your rat is a pack animal, it needs to belong to a family. It needs someone to be it's leader and to protect and love it. It will go completely antisocial if it's emotional needs aren't met. There are no half measures here. If your parents only locked you in the closet on weekdays and let you out on weekends, you would not grow up to be normal. You need to accept the role as family head and alpha to your rat or rats, on a full time basis.

Fifth, you have to communicate with your rat or rats. Rats don't come knowing English, so you need to learn basic rat. From the moment you first meet your rat it's trying to communicate with you. It might run up the the glass at the pet shop and want a treat or to go home with you, or in might tell you it's afraid and run and hide or it might tell you its the cage boss and take an aggressive stance to tell you to leave it's pack alone. But from the moment you press your nose to the glass in the pet shop you are the focus of your rat's attention and it's talking to you. You need to learn to listen.

This is worth an example... Fuzzy Rat, our true shoulder rat came home as a pup out of a feeder bin. When the cover was opened she stood right up and climbed right onto my daughter's hand. I really didn't find her quite as attractive as some of the other rats in the bin so I got my daughter to put her back and try to handle some other rats, but whenever my daughter reached in Fuzzy Rat went right over to her and climbed back into her hand. I finally gave in and literally from day one, Fuzzy Rat has never stopped communicating with us. Two days ago, my daughter was playing on her I-pod with Fuzzy Rat in her lap, Fuzzy Rat felt ignored and tried to snip the I-pod cord. She did this to me once when I was listening to headphones and she's cut my phone cables and peed on my phone while I was talking. Simply put, she wanted to tell us she wanted more attention. She points in the direction she wants to be carried and gives kissies when you go the right way. She communicates and she wants to be understood. Amelia was a neglected rat for the first 7 months of her life. She was ignored and didn't even know her name. She was sad and miserable lonely and very much afraid. She's been with us for 6 months and she doesn't expect people to understand her too much, still she tries and she is actually very obedient, comes when called and will follow at heel indoors. When she wants to get out of the cage, she climbs the front of the bars and spreads her feet as widely as possible as in 'see me', or 'notice me'. But after 7 months of no one listening to her, she doesn't expect much understanding from her humans, even though she still hangs on our every movement and every sound. Even though she probably thinks we're too stupid to understand her, she still tried to understand us.

Communication with your rats is critical, they expect it from you and you need to expect it from them. They will respond to you and you have to let them know you appreciate their effort. And when you do something they want you to do don't be surprised if they reward you.


Before immersion will work, you need to understand the animal you are dealing with and you need to adjust your mind set. Like potty training in humans, it's only a small part of the process of socializing your rats into your family. Having gone through immersion with several people, it seems to suddenly start working when the humans get it. And it seems to produce amazing rats because the rats have amazing humans. 

Immersion socializes new rats, it fixes problem rats, it often eliminates rat on rat aggression, it builds trust, reduces shyness and cures many of the behavioral problems people have with their rats and it does it fast. Why? Because you are focusing on your rats needs and you are communicating in a way your rat can understand, and you are listening and letting your rat participate rather than just being trained. In short it's the way rats learn from each other. You are going to be speaking rat to your rats and they will be happy and excited to see you every day and they will love you as their dad or mom and their protector.

Immersion grew out of a philosophy to better relate to rats, to center the focus on their needs and the way they do things and as a way to open a dialogue. If you don't get your mindset right it won't work right. What good is a successful immersion if you are going to throw it all away the next day?

If you are new to rats, I know this all seems way over the top. But read the many threads by the many happy rat owners here, read the over the rainbow bridge section and see how many human hearts have been deeply touched by their little furry friends. And ask anyone with a rat or rat pack of their own if they feel loved by their rats. Take a close look at Fuzzy Rat meeting a brand new human friend and think about what she's trying to communicate in the photo. Let go of your lowered expectations and prepare for one of the most wonderful friendships of your life. 

So this ends lesson one... Once you drink the Kool-Aid the rest will get so much easier. If you just can't accept your rats as intelligent, communicative emotional beings immersion won't work right for you and you will be locking yourself into a small space with a frustrated and potentially vicious rat and that just won't end well. Immersion requires that you act and react to your rat's needs properly on the fly in a confined space over a long period of time. If you get it, your rats will get it and you will walk out with your new best buddy riding your shoulder. Not to worry, immersion has worked on some very clueless humans with some very screwed up rats. The actual procedure is pretty easy and it's very fast.


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## Rumy91989

YAY IT'S FINALLY UP! Thank you for posting! I always love reading your stories, and your advice and experience are invaluable.


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## Moonferret

Theres some very interesting information here, I look forward to reading some more!


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## Hephaestion

An invaluable contribution!


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## Rat Daddy

*Immersion: The Practice*

You always start immersion right away!

Imagine if you were adopting a new child. So you go down to the orphanage and you pick a child running about with it's friend's in the yard and you have someone shove him or her into a big cardboard box and stuff it into the back of your SUV. As soon as you get home you get all of your relatives and friends to carry the big box to your child's new bedroom, you open the door and the lid of the box and you fling your new son or daughter into the bedroom as quickly as possible and lock the door. Now you let your new kid acclimate to their new room for a couple of months, sliding food and treats in through the barred windows and occasionally reaching in to pat his or hear head. This is exactly the experience that many rats face when they leave the pet shop. Sometime people adopt two rats, so complicate the case by tossing two kids that never met before into the same bedroom.

If a sane relative or the State department of social services doesn't stop you, you are very likely to experience certain behavioral problems with your new kids that aren't going to be easily fixed by a lifetime of therapy.

In part one of this article, I began with recognizing your rat as a rational thinking and emotional being. Now I'll take it a small step farther. Rats are used in most psychology labs around the world as models for human behavior. Basically rats react much like humans, so the converse is also true. Your new rat is likely to react very much like the child you locked into their room to "acclimate". They are going to get hostile, anxious, frightened and antisocial in every which way imaginable. 

And yes, the damage started at the big box chain pet shop or even at the commercial breeder's rat farm, much like a kid could get screwed up at the orphanage.

So how do we start?

At the store, or breeder's start to get to know your rat. Try to take him or her out of the cage and handle him or her... this doesn't always work out as expected, but if the rat attacks you at the store or tries frantically to escape, you are dealing with an animal that's already screwed up. That's not to say you can't salvage this rat, just recognize and understand that it is going to make immersion much harder. The screwed up rat is damaged and you will be undoing damage caused by other people before you can start to make progress. The ideal choice is a rat that's inquisitive and friendly. Try to start here. If possible try to interact with your rat as much as possible in the car ride home. Most of the rat pups and even adult rats we've brought home rode in my daughter's lap. And open air cage might be next best and keep the stress level down as much as possible. If you are using a cage to transport your rat home, keep talking to your new rat and try to reach in and be as reassuring as possible. Immersion has begun.

Once your new child or rat gets home, what does he or she want to do first? (Well after they find the bathroom.) Do they want to get used to their new room or meet their new family? Mostly, they want to meet the family. You start getting to meet your adopted children before you show them their new room and so you start to meet your new rats before you show them their new cage. You guide your rats through the confusing and difficult transition between their former home and their new home. And you take advantage of their disorientation to gain the upper hand and your alpha status while the new rat comes to see you as friend and protector.

So your new rat doesn't get lost you should pick a nice safe roomy place to get acquainted. If you have chosen wisely and your rat isn't all hostile or terrified or otherwise screwed up this is going to be lots of fun for both you and your new rat. Spread an old blanket or work on a tile floor as accidents might happen, bring a pocket full of treats like cookies or cereal or something sweet and oh so bad for your rats with you and sit down right on the floor with your rat.

Now remember the example of the rats immersing my daughter... they stayed right in my daughters face and didn't let up for a moment. She got their undivided attention. And you are going to do the same. You poke, skritch scoop, pet, cuddle and most of all talk to your new rattie. Use it's name over and over and over again, exactly the same way. Rats are very precise animals and Chuck, Charlie, Charles and Chuckles are very different words to them. Choose a single name and eventually a single command for each desired action and stick with it, precisely. 

The first thing your new rat might do is look for the shortcut home. Wouldn't you? So if it starts checking the area perimeter that's what it's doing. No disrespect to you, but it may have left family behind at the store or the breeders, so give it a few minutes to recognize it's now somewhere new and things are changing. That should be over pretty quickly and now you are listening for the next thing your rat is going to tell you. In order from best to worst:

Option one: It going to run up to you looking for attention. Prior human experience tells your rat you aren't all bad. Your rat is terrified and it's alone and it wants protection and you are about the closest thing to a friend it has. Respond to this behavior by sheltering it with your hands, talk softly, bring it in towards yourself and try to hug it as much as possible. Keep it up until your rattie starts to feel more comfortable and resumes exploring the room tagging back to you every few minutes for reassurance. Once you feel comfortable that your rat isn't terrified of you and is comfortable in the area, you can start a little chase game and be a little assertive, even a little aggressive. Stay in your rats face, maintain contact and direct the play. If your rat accepts treats and affection so much the better. But keep it up until you are both pretty much exhausted. It's over when you can skritch your rat's belly or ears and it doesn't object or seems to appreciate the attention. In fact you should get the feeling your new rat really wants to be with you and it's watching you for direction and leadership. Part one is the meet and greet part two is asserting your alpha status. In part three, you reward your new subordinate and your rat appreciates being rewarded and protected. There's no rush, take at least a couple of hours of play to make sure you are the alpha.

Option two: Your rat won't acknowledge you at all. This rat has already learned that humans don't care and don't listen. It doesn't dislike you, but overall it doesn't expect anything from you either. For this guy or girl you really have to get in it's face and make it realize you are trying to communicate with it. You are not the walk by customer in the pet shop or the drop food and scoot employee, you are the new alpha rat. You keep after your new rat until it notices you and has to respond to you. This is a pretty normal reaction for a pet shop rat. And once it notices you it's going to try and communicate with you. Sometimes like in our best case scenario it's going to try and make friends right away, but just as likely it's going to challenge you. 

In both option one and two, a mock combat is normal, possible and likely. It's the way rats meet and greet each other. It establishes the ground rules and the pack order. If your rat likes you it's very likely going to attack you. Not to worry, normal rats don't draw blood. The fight is for show not to inflict injury. Our first rat was a part-wild rat and it could leap from my desk to my face and it would bite fast and repetitively and make a big show of being the aggressor. It's attacks were so violent and swift it would really take a person off guard. In our case it started when she was about 6 weeks old. But this can happen with older rats right during immersion. After the first or second outright attack I suddenly realized that I had been bitten several times both in my hands and my face... but I wasn't bleeding. In fact, shock value aside I was absolutely unharmed. So I swatted back and a battle ensured that involved my rat leaping from desk to table to floor and at me from all kids of angles, Eventually I grabbed the little monster and gave her hugs and skritches. To which she responded by submitting to my authority and accepting my status as alpha and her role as pack member. My poor 5 year old daughter was more than a little terrified by her new pet, but after she saw me survive the conflict without getting bit she jumped in and established her alpha status too. Our part-wild girl never actually got domesticated, she remained a hazard to small animals and a danger to strangers, but for my daughter and myself she was as loving and manageable as any domestic rat.

Option Three: The hostile and aggressive rat... 

Well you are here because you chose poorly at the pet shop or you neglected your rat once you brought him or her home. This rat doesn't like you, it doesn't respect you and perhaps it good reason to hate you. If it has a roommate, it's likely being aggressive towards him or her and you don't dare put your fingers into it's cage... it's actually defending itself, it's territory and it's pack from you. This is not a pet rat, and it's not an option. Biting rats are not pets, never or ever. And you better clear your calendar if you intend to fix this mess. 

So we start out with thick pants a jacket or sweat shirt leather work or winter gloves a bath towel or towels and maybe a hat for protection. You are preparing for combat with an enemy that's agile mobile and hostile and smart to boot. You can bring treats, but don't expect them to help much up front and don't waste your time offering them or hugs or skritches to begin with. You are not going into immersion to make peace or surrender. You are going in to have a fight and to win and earn respect. You are going to be the alpha rat and alpha rats don't take crap from their pack members. Get yourself into a defensive position up a stair or against the wall, rats are fast and smart and they can circle around you and if you jump around you might step on your rat. If you have multiple rats, start with the worst most aggressive one first. Fix him or her and the others will be easier. Then bring your little monster into the confined area. It's best that it's not too confined so both you and your adversary have some maneuvering room and turn him or her loose. Most likely the rat will be a little disoriented, which is good, get right in the rats face, take the offensive. Swat and bop (lovingly) as necessary, use the gloves and the towel to manage any attacks your rat launches. You win every exchange and don't back off or back down or get interrupted or distracted. Maintain eye contact. You can slow down the hostile rat by tossing a towel on him. But don't try to handle the rat until it starts to calm down and stops attacking you and don't try to give treats or hugs or skritches to a rat that is being hostile... You are not bribing it you are defeating it. 

Yes, this sounds pretty harsh, and it sounds pretty unpleasant, but this is what a rat expects from an alpha rat. If you were a real alpha rat and your subordinate attacked you, it would be bleeding and possibly dead. You have to maintain your presence of mind and not cause undue harm to your rat, but you have little to lose; a vicious rat is not a pet and should not be kept in your household. You are fighting for your rats very life so take this deadly seriously. 

And you don't stop and you don't break up this session... it takes however long as it takes.... one hour, maybe three hours even eight hours; it doesn't matter. If you quit the rat feels it's won and your next session will be that much harder and longer.

Suddenly something strange will happen... Your rat will stop attacking you, it might even roll over onto it's back. It may let you scoop it up. You notice you're talking and using it's correct name in a calm voice rather than shouting and swatting. It should feel like someone somewhere threw a switch. Your rat may have actually been getting more hostile before the switch throws rather than calming down. But this is the kind of experience commonly reported by humans going though immersion with their aggressive rats.

Your rat is communicating with you, it's acknowledging respect and submitting to your alpha authority. Sorry, it's not over!!!! As the alpha rat it's now your job to welcome your new pack member into your pack. Scratch his or her ears, and belly if possible, pick your rattie up and handle it assertively offer treats and hugs and skritches and again don't stop, stay in it's face. There's no giving up or backing down now, and both you and your new little friend are going to be tired but you are now at phase one of option one above, meeting your new best furry friend. Alpha rats have a long ritualistic welcoming process that involves grooming the new submissive rat and playing with them, so don't screw everything up by stopping once the battle phase is over. That's just half the process, you win the war with affection and treats after you win the battle for respect.

Summary so far:

If your mindset is correct going in, you are going to recognize, aggression, inquisitiveness, fear, submission, respect and finally affection from your rat and you are going to respond very much as you would to an adopted child and you are going to try to communicate back the correct responses that your new rat is expecting, in the way and order it expects to hear, feel and see them. This is a bonding process not a training process it instills mutual respect as the basis for affection. 

Again, this is a one shot, strait through, many hour process, just like rats do it in the real world. Yes, it takes a while but you shortcut weeks, if not months of trust training or forced socialization. 

Remember, you never work in the rat's cage, that's it's turf an you are starting out as an invader and there is no benefit to waiting between sessions or postponing immersion, it only makes the rat more anxious. There is nothing to be gained by short sessions, they do more harm than good as your rat learns it can drive you off or escape your authority.

So before I move on to immersion as it applies to pack building and introductions, let me conclude by saying that everything you accomplished in immersion can easily be undone through neglect or mistreatment. Day one of immersion is no more critical than every day that follows it. If you go away for a couple of weeks after completing immersion you are likely to return with a worse problem than you originally faced. Immersion is followed by building a permanent, durable and consistent relationship in which you as the alpha human manage your rat pack hands on every day.


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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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Before I forget: special credit goes to the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat who never gave up on trying to communicate with us and to teach us and my daughter Emily who just had a gift for understanding even when I couldn't.


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## Rat Daddy

*Immersion: The miracle cure?*

OK so we all know there isn't really a miracle cure for anything... or do we?

When the normal socialization process breaks down all kinds of bad things happen. Some rats become terrified and introverted, others become territorial and aggressive, some become neurotic or depressed and even physically sick. 

Some rats try and establish their own pack order and dominate their cagemates, and things get even more messed up when some of your rats belong to your pack while other cagemates don't respect your authority.

So we see a broad spectrum of problems, none of which make much sense out of context. Once you've consumed the Kool-Aid and you see your rats through the right eyes it all starts to make sense. Think about it, some people have large and well behaved rat packs while other folks are working on their fourth behavioral neuter and are still having issues. Can one person really be so good at choosing better rats and someone else so unfortunate? 

The answer is no. 

One person has established a proper social pack order in their home and has great two way communication with their rats, while the other person still sees and treats their rats as small unintelligent animals. 

I'm throwing no stones... but you know the folks with amazing rats, they are the amazing rat owners. Read their comments carefully and really listen to their mindset... they know something you don't, they understand their rats and they have actual individual relationships with them. Watch someone really good handle their rats, they are always talking to and watching their rats behavior, look closely and you will see an actual dialogue going on. This is the result of proper immersion. Even before immersion had a name or was a technique, the best rat trainers understood all of it's principles intuitively. Likely there are some people reading this right now thinking about how much cyberspace I'm wasting in explaining what has been obvious to them all along. 

So lets talk about a few ways immersion is going to improve your life with your existing rat problems.

Introductions 101.. the immersion way. Before you even think of getting a new rat, you need to have order in the pack you already have. All of your rats should be responding and communicating with you and they should be playing well together. All rats squabble a little, especially over food but there should be no injuries, overgrooming or bloodletting. If you have an aggressive rat start by taking him through immersion. In my experience a rat that's aggressive towards it's roomies is also hostile towards it's humans. The rat absolutely needs to respect you as it's alpha before you can even begin to fix it. Once you fix the worst rat, you do immersion with the other pack members too. Every rat in your mischief needs to be on the same page or the battle goes on. This should go pretty quickly and you run the individual immersion sessions back to back or day after day depending on the severity of the problem... Then you bring everybody out and manage the play sessions. If you see aggression or hostility communicate your displeasure in no uncertain terms. Every rat needs to know you are their protector as well as every other rat's personal body guard and there is only one alpha in charge and that's you. If my girls get into a tiff, I can shout "Girls stop fighting" from three rooms away and the action stops instantly. 

Now that you have order in your pack you can introduce a new pack member. First take you new rat through immersion as you would any new rat. Once your new rat has accepted you as it's alpha, you introduce everyone else to the neutral play area and you manage the madness. Your old rats know you and they know you are in charge and by accepting the new rat in front of them you are setting the example you expect them to follow. Yes, there are going to be skirmishes during the immersion introduction and you have to play it by ear, when to intervene and when to let nature take it course, so you have to stay right in the middle of the action. And you will see some rats submitting and others doing the grooming but overall it will end with everybody roaming about happily like they were all life long friends. For a time there's likely to be lots of butt sniffing going on as everybody confirms everyone else's identity. Then put everybody into their freshly cleaned cage and stay close by to watch for signs of aggression. Continue the process until everybody is asleep in one big furball. 

Be warned, immersion might not work with rat pups that can't properly respond to older rats and can't defend themselves, especially when females are involved. But it usually works with rats of the same age or at least rats that are reasonably mature. Female rat pups might not be good candidates for introductions to certain older females rats, and the aggression involved in rejecting the new rat pup can really come back later on to screw up the pup for life. In nature no three or four week old rat pup is likely to go out and try to join a new pack so I imagine no rat pack has a hard and fast rule as to what it should do when a pup wanders in. In fact by accepting the pup, it might face an angry mom that might not be too far behind. This is an unnatural situation that can have unexpected consequences and should be best left avoided.

As to conventional wisdom... It doesn't hurt to give everybody a bath or spray a similar scent on every rat, but in reality rats sniff each other's butts, they aren't stupid and they know if they've never met a certain rat before. Really, it's like dressing all of your kids alike and sneaking a new child into your home, do you really think your other kids aren't going to notice? And when it comes to putting cages side by side, what are your rats really learning? There are strangers in the house, their home is being invaded and they can't reach out and communicate with them. Worse yet the new rat won't come and meet them and for the new rat he's got to be wondering why this new pack won't come and meet him. Rats do immersion when they meet, ugly or pretty, it happens when their noses touch. Or rather when they sniff each other's butts. It's exciting and fast paced but it's over as fast as any other phase of immersion. I can't see any benefit to prolonging the agony.

As to the host of other strange behaviors you are facing always start out by analyzing your rat's relationship with you. Are you the alpha, does your rat love and respect you? If no, always fix that first. Then make sure everybody is on the same page and then start using your communication channels to change the deviant behaviors your rats are displaying. 

Learn basic rat language and listen, get your rats out of their cages, immerse them or re-immerse them, be the alpha, invest the time and manage your pack and work with your rats to resolve them. You can't fix a rat until it respects, trusts and loves you. After you have gained their respect, and trust and your rats love you, anything is possible.

As to hormonal aggression, science tends to indicate that rats that think they are alphas get higher hormone levels, which in turn ratchets up their aggressive behavior which in turn pushes up their hormone levels again. If you never let your rats get confused in the first place about their pack status or you immerse them out of it before it gets too far along, chances are that surgery can be avoided. But if it's lack of proper socialization that caused the hormonal aggression, it's an aggressive anti-social rat juiced on hormones that isn't going to make immersion any easier.

Although everything has limits, once you do the immersion and your rats are on the right page and you are communicating, there are very few things you can't fix... from housebreaking to fighting to shyness or aggression. And there are very few things you can't teach your rats once you can communicate with them.

Some things aren't easily fixable like Amelia stealing cookies by the box or Fuzzy Rat disconnecting electronic appliances by snipping the wires to get attention. And sometimes you have just got to love them for who they are and not try to make them something they aren't. Your very best trained rat that understand every command is sometimes going to do the exact opposite because it just doesn't agree with you. Rats will be rats, and they will always be quirky.

Footnote to the limits of immersion:

Immersion can't solve the worst problem facing rats today on a long term basis. Too many humans simply don't have the time to be the alpha's their rats need. Most rats that get screwed up by neglect can be fixed by immersion, but if immersion isn't followed by a proper family or pack living arrangement with a human alpha omnipresent and in charge it's all time wasted. 

A rats life is short, their time is precious. Once they are immersed into your pack and they feel safe and happy, they will make you happy. If they feel loved and respected they will return the feeling to you. If you set high goals for your rats they will never cease to amaze you. As your bond grows and your trust grows your rats will evolve right before your eyes. Don't let your rats waste their lives trapped alone in their cages.

Beware, you might see your rats in photos like these if you drink the Kool-Aid. (Although few rats can be true shoulder rats, and you shouldn't try this at home without reading my much more advanced course on shoulder rats and the pages of warnings that come with it, immersion is where everything starts and the sky is the limit... literally.)









Just taking Fuzzy Rat for a swim at the beach.









Look Dad, I'm 30 feet up and No Hands! 
(You trust me don't you?)


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## cagedbirdsinging

Moved thread to the behavior forum and stickied. Thank you, Rat Daddy, for sharing your invaluable training experiences!


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## Rat Daddy

I might want to add a tiny footnote before I forget... Rats preen when they think deep rat thoughts. If your rat begins preening during immersion, it's really thinking and possibly changing the way it's thinking about you or how to interact with you. This is a very good thing... don't disturb your rats thinking process. (He or she might be having a light bulb moment.) Let it preen and think when it needs to, it's often the precursor to a change in your rats behavior, then when the preening is over you go right back to the immersion process watching closely for any changes in your rat's behavior.

This is a photo of Fuzzy Rat thinking about getting rained on and what she should be doing about it. Your rats should look about the same.


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## BlackBirdSeesYou

how would you go about immersion training if you got two or more new rats at the same time? 

do you begin with just one or do you bond with them both at the same time?


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## Rat Daddy

This is a very fine question and it depends on the severity of the condition you find your new rats in and your experience level. With normal, friendly non-aggressive rats, immersion can be done as a group romp with lots of one on one time with each and time with both as the format allows, but you should be prepared for it to take longer, think ultra-marathon. However if one of your new rats is aggressive and/or bites, you take him or her on first. Then once you have immersed him bring in the second less or non-aggressive rat and take him through the process next, the first immersed rat can participate after you get the immersion done with the second. This immersion and introduction process can be done in one extended marathon and it ends with everybody playing nicely together as long as you can maintain control of the action.

This isn't a matter of better science or theory, its simply a matter of personal safety. Rats can be fast and agile and can maneuver around you and take a nasty bite out of something important to your physical well being. So you want to challenge the nastiest most aggressive one first while you are at your sharpest and fastest and you don't want to get distracted by a second anything in the room with you. Towels, gloves and thick clothes and boots help, but quick reflexes, focused concentration and nerves of steel are going to make much quicker work of immersing a vicious rat. 

I've owned a part-wild rat and her normal pack order play fighting consisted of her lunging at my face from four feet away. Gladly the first time it happened and I missed the catch I discovered that the 10 or so bites she took out of my face didn't actually draw any blood and she was only pretending to tear me to pieces. She was barely 6 weeks old. Several months later I blocked her from killing a small animal I was holding in my hand, her strike missed that animal and I found out just what a real rat bite feels an looks like. It's something you seriously should try to avoid! If you are working with a dangerous rat, it's one on one and you stay on the attack and I mean attack until it backs down and acknowledges your authority, one second of distraction can take you to the hospital with an unfortunate piercing. If you somehow find yourself starting out with multiple vicious rats at once you do one at a time keeping the immersed rats isolated until everybody respects your authority and then you do the immersion rat introductions bringing one rat in after another until everyone plays as a group.

So while theoretically you should be able to lock yourself into a room with a pack of wild rats and assert your alpha status and do a single immersion/introduction ultra-marathon session... theory must give way to safety or you will be spending quality time explaining immersion on your insurance claim forms.

You form your plan of attack based on the rats and your confidence and experience level. Group, or one on one and then group both will work well and quickly... but one on one and then group is always safer and easier. It may not be the way I might go personally, but it's the way I would recommend it to anyone less experienced than myself.


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## Moonferret

I heard somewhere that moving house can shake up the "pack dynamics" in a mischief. I can imagine its a stressful experience for rats as it can be for humans and I've just been told I need to move again so I want this to go smoothly. I have worked hard to establish my role as alpha rat and want to stay alpha rat. Would doing a round of immersion as soon as I move in be a good idea?


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## Rat Daddy

Packs are actual quite portable. Our rats have rolled with us since day one. A wild pack may range and forage over many acres. I've found pack order pretty much transcends geography. But reassuring your pack members that you are there to comfort and lead them in their new home is a wonderful idea. And a nice long immersion in your new home will no doubt put everyone at ease and keep anyone from becoming confused about the rules in their new home and who is who in the pack. 

Often a change in housing comes with a change in job and a change in the amount of time a person can spend with their pack. A move can screw up pack order, but it's usually more about the subtle interpersonal changes and less about the wallpaper. I agree, you never want to lose your status.


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## Jokerfest

How should I put my rats in their place when fighting breaks out? for future reference.
Do I flip them over and power groom them?


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## ratclaws

Jokerfest said:


> How should I put my rats in their place when fighting breaks out? for future reference.
> Do I flip them over and power groom them?


Never flip a rat when it's angry. You'll end up being bitten due to transferred aggression; even the most socialised rats can revert back to wild mode during fighting/biting. This is something only to be done when you're playing with them or they're accepting of it of your dominance. You should just separate them until they calm down (in the same area).


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## Rat Daddy

My part-wild rat was vicious but I raised her from a pup and our relationship was solid. I only got bit once but that was by accident... That said, I introduced her to my other rat on my belly on an easy chair... I got hundreds of pinholes in my had but neither rat drew blood. I once removed my wild child from the towel closet where she was thinking of nesting and she absolutely freaked out and flew into a ball of gnashing teeth, flailing claws and puffed fur. It was so scary I actually dropped her, but again no blood. My neighbor who she didn't know was far less lucky when he tried to grab her, she tore his hand to pieces.

If your rats are properly bonded to you they will accept your authority, just make sure they realize it's you. Also given any choice, it's best to work with your rats out of their cage.

Generally I yell first to get their undivided attention. Then I swat the rats apart if necessary. After that I go after them and then when they are in retreat and not challenging me, I hug and skritch them... this shows them that I'm not only the boss but that I care for them.

A real alpha rat is fierce when he's making a point, but then smooths out the feathers immediately after he's got his message across. And despite any inference to shock and awe my description might imply, your not trying to actually hurt your rats.

If you haven't done immersion or your rats aren't bonded with you there isn't much you can do that won't get you bit when your rats are all hot and bothered so keep your hands out of the fray or you will wind up like my neighbor. 

Breaking up a fight is not a bonding experience, it's your job *after* you become the alpha. As the one respected alpha it's generally safe, your rats won't attack you. On the other hand if you aren't the alpha your just another combatant and you could get bit by both rats.


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## Rat Daddy

And btw, power grooming isn't so much a punishment by an alpha rat, it's actually more of a reward for the other rat being submissive. So you don't groom or otherwise reward your hostile rat, until it otherwise submits. Sort of the theory behind what Ratclaws was saying.


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## trematode

Thank you very much for posting this, Rat Daddy. It all comes at an excellent time for me: trying to introduce two new girls to two old girls while also trying to figure out what all of my rats think of me. Rumy gave me some advice, which sounds very familiar 

I've been busy doing individual/pair immersion for all four of my rats and I feel like I have made some progress. Luckily, I was not dealing with aggressive rats at first. I can now hold Dusty and Amelia for long periods of time. Amelia and Dusty will eat in my arms. Dusty bruxes a lot. Amelia and Sprocket have fallen asleep by my side or in my arms. Sprocket will often come when called. All four of my girls act like they are excited to see me when I enter a room. My new girls have both escaped their playpen a few times and it was no problem getting them back where they needed to be. In the past, my old girls were a nightmare. I've been trying to avoid that situation so I have no idea how that will go now.

Your point about rats trying to communicate with people really intrigued me. I want to really try and understand certain behaviours: Why does Sprocket scream when I pick her up? Why is Ruby more reserved than Dusty? Why is Dusty, one of my new rats, very calm in my arms? Do they like it when I rub their heads? Do they like it when I romp with them in their cage (they run into a safe place and immediately pop back out again)? What is play to them? What is their body language telling me (subtle things... not obvious things)? I am trying to work on that. Also, how do they feel about the cat? They like to draw her in and bite her nose through the bars of the cage.

I am also trying to figure out if I am alpha yet... and when it is a good time to start introductions again. At the moment, I feel like Sprocket (my wiggly rat who screams when I pick her up) and Ruby (my calmer, more reserved new girl who likes to break out of the playpen or or explore the room) need work.

I look forward to the updates


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## Jokerfest

Thank you rat daddy. 
Usually it only takes a shout from me to make them stop anything they might be doing that they shouldn't.
But I wanted to know because I have two young boys who will be hitting puberty soon and wanted to know how to put them in their places if need be.


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## ratclaws

To be honest, I think rats are always going to have their off days where they try to challenge your command as alpha, and this is where the whole part about it being continuous comes from as Rat Daddy stated. You can't control everything that a rat does or wants to do; we're building up a naturally complimenting rapport here between human and animal rather than creating a brainwashed servant. But of course, if your rats do step out of line the job of you as the alpha is to assert your dominance. As for Sprocket trematode, I'd say she does need more work as she wriggles away and squeaks; however some rats just really don't like being held, no matter how long you try. You'll likely find as you persist with Immersion that she is able to be held for longer periods of time but still ends up squeaking and wriggling away; it's girls for you. 

As an example to explain the dynamics of Immersion between rat and owner to the forum in general, I'd like to present the difference between my two groups of girls. My older two, Storm and Rosie, are around 8 and 9 months respectively. I had them before I knew of this method as it wasn't fully developed and as such used the "Forced Socialisation" and "Trust Training" methods. Storm is the "alpha" rat below me and was always better with handling from a young age, so of course she developed to be much better with me than Rosie. Generally you can get a feel for a rats personality just by looking at them and holding them; I find they give off some kind of "aura" that tells you about their personality. I don't know if it's unconsciously a rat-human genetic thing but I'm not going to suggest so through some kind of psuedo-science. Anyway, my reason for stating this is you can read a rats initial behaviours based on the following things:
1) Body language
2) How it interacts with the rats it is occupied with
3) How it reacts based on the first interaction with you, a human

The length of time of which your rats should be submitted to Immersion is dependant upon their inherent personality and the way in which they perceive humans. There is a huge difference between a rat who has a relaxed personality from a young age and one who is neurotic. The more anti-social the initial personality trait, the longer it will take I find. For example, my girl Storm is so relaxed that I can hold her in the air, with one hand under her arms with her belly dangling down all stretched out, and rub her belly with the fingers of my other hand without her even flinching. I can also hold her for at least a minute STRAIGHT before she squirms. When I look at Storm, I can sense she's a personable rat. She also allows me to flip her over and rub her belly whenever. She is by no means a rare example of a lazy female; she just respects my authority most of the time. If she steps out of line I give her a quick nose tap while holding her firmly and say "NO!" in a specific tone every time. She then just stares at me, snaps out of it and waits for me to put her down and goes about her business.

Rosie, though not unlike Storm, is different. She is fine to be picked up, and handled, but she squeaks a lot of the time. I can attribute this to my lesser socialising of her and the fact that she is a vocal rat (she always squeaks when Storm grooms her without fail). When I look back at how I brought up Rosie compared to Storm I see the difference. Because Storm had a naturally calmer, playful personality I handled her more and as a result, she's great. Rosie however, despite being (partly) socialised didn't receive the same treatment and with her natural personality being more "vigilant" so to speak, she should've had more applied to her than Storm, but such is life as I was unaware at the time. This is why it's essential you handle rats to begin with and most of the time, why breeders are certainly a better idea. This is because rats that are handled are going to have the necessary handling influences ingrained into them from repeated exposure to humans from a young age. So despite their natural personality types, on the whole they're all great with humans. Pet store rats don't get this chance and so succumb to fear and paranoia; it's the luck of the draw that their natural personality shines through to enable them to be immersed much more easily.

As for my two younger girls (Ellie, 4 months and Lily, 2 and a half months) the story is completely different. Ellie is a pet store runt, who has a brilliant "natural" temperament. A combination of immersion (of which she had no choice as she was alone with no mate for a while) and her personality has lead her to be completely submissive towards me and very, very soft. She's never squeaked at me other than when giving medicine and allows me to flip her and rub her belly whenever. She also comes to me for cuddles and bruxes/boggles like nobody's business. Lily on the other hand, was from a breeder at a mere 5 weeks old, and within the space of 2 days she was immersed with me and behaves brilliantly. She's learning what "NO!" means and very rarely misbehaves, neither does Ellie. I can tell they respect me and they know that if they do, they get skritches and belly rubs. In return, they groom my hair and sometimes even my stubble. As with Storm and Rosie, I could "sense" their temperaments though just from our first meetings. It's hard to explain because you either feel it, or you don't. It's the same as how you can tell if you're going to like or dislike a person, or can read things about their personality from their faces.

Despite my success with Immersion, it is always an ever-constant process. I feel that both my sets of girls are almost completely immersed with me individually, but as a whole there are issues with my older two (Storm and Rosie), as there is instant territorial aggression with them both towards Ellie and Lily causing them to be in two separate cages. Ellie and Lily on the other hand, who I am 100% dominant over, have no problems with other rats in the slightest. The introduction is going to be a mixture of Immersion and Introduction techniques, which will strengthen my bond with all of the rats, especially my older females. This is the only place where Storm is lacking; she can be a bully towards Rosie in the cage too stalking her around but they never actually physically fight, just power groom. I know that Storm is 95% there and that Rosie is about 80% (she needs work on the squeaking when being handled and her nerves a bit), and I intend to fix this after I finish education in a couple weeks when I have the committed time to do so. Had I known about Immersion from the start, this would be very different and perhaps both sets of girls would've been together within a few days of first meeting.

I have also experienced the bad in rats though. Storm actually came with her sister Hazel, a pink eyed (as bright as they come) hooded topaz/silver fawn. Right from the outset I could sense that something between us didn't "click"; I could sense she would be hard work and I was right. Rats with pink eyes have the unfortunate increased probability of being nervous due to sensitive ears and an obstruction of vision. Hazel was a prime example of this and the Forced Socialisation and Trust Training just wasn't good enough to train her to react well to me over the space of half a year. She ended up biting, as as far as rats go that's a screwed up case and is very difficult to correct. I can handle working with Rosie being slightly on edge sometimes but not with a rat like Hazel. The combination of pink eyes, sensitive ears, being from a pet shop (bought at the age of 2 and a half months may I add) and a terribly un-trusting personality made her too hard of a case to handle. And Storm and Rosie could sense it too; she was automatically placed at the bottom of the cage hierarchy. She is now owned by my girlfriend, who with her two rats Bella and Milly she is much more comfortable. She is also calmer with her than me for some reason. Bella is very similar to Ellie in her combo of personality and training (naturally immersed before the technique even existed as she had her out 24/7) and as such she's an amazing rat. She inspired me to own rats and has changed EVERY person's perceptions on rats that she has met, even haters. You can see how she is in this thread; there are videos on the second page of her giving kisses on command via the "kissing noise": http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?68778-Meet-my-gf-s-dumb-dumb-Bella!

Immersion is certainly ongoing and something which takes time and practise. As much as I have learned there is still much more to go in the forthcoming weeks. Never give up and you'll end up with your perfect pack of rats who exude happiness and respect for you. However, in future when getting more rats, now you've learned how to bring them into your pack with this guide pick rats who are great from the get go (brilliant personality, responsive, easy to handle). Doing this and immersing them from a young age could, if given the right combination of personality and training, could lead to the rat becomes a true "Shoulder Rat"; this being the ultimate result of human to rat communication and absolute trust. You could be the one raising the perfect rat who inspires other owners to copy your actions and as a result, change the general perception of pet rats for good.


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## ratclaws

For your ease of reference, here is a fully immersed rat, combined with a good starting personality; the combination of which has lead to an amazing relationship between my girlfriend and her rat Bella who have changed each other's lives. Immersion really can change both you and your rat's lives forever. This is only an example of full Immersion Training + a relaxed personality type; with training from a young age a rat can evolve to become a true Shoulder Rat such as Rat Daddy's Fuzzy Rat.


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## ratclaws

I'd also like to add, that the way I see is best to separate rats and their level of rat-human sociability is with levels. Of course, these would not be hardened categories but it just gives people something to work towards. This is only my personal idea and not Rat Daddy's:

Four Stages of Rat Socialisation

1) Stage 0 - A rat which has no concept of human socialisation whatsoever; a rat which is neurotic, terrified, petrified, aggressive etc. Basically the tough cases to crack. VERY likely to bite or has bitten.
2) Stage 1 - A rat which has some idea of human socialisation but needs to be immersed. These are the rats that fall under the average pet store category; possibly a bit nervous but not too nervous to become aggressive. Breeder rats in my opinion would fall between Stages 1 and 2 as they still need Immersion into YOUR PACK despite being handled as babies and adjusted to human interaction.
3) Stage 2 - A fully immersed rat, one who respects your pack order and understands how it is to behave and also that you are trained enough to respond to it emotionally and physically. This is your example of a perfect pet rat; more friend than animal.
4) Stage 3 - A fully immersed rat who knows a variety of commands and will return upon command without hesitation; a show worthy animal if you will.
5) Stage 4 - The TRUE "Shoulder Rat". I would say this is the highest level, as it's something that many rat owners will not obtain. I know Rat Daddy classifies Shoulder Training in its own separate category to Immersion Training, but to make things simple here using my progressive method I'd like to state it as the final step. Rats such as these are rare in that really, they need the perfect disposition to begin with from a young age alongside specialised training to react perfectly to Immersion. Shoulder Rat training requires a lot of time, effort and patience and furthermore a "Safe Site" for which to use to train your rat. For most owners, a Stage 2/3 rat is all they will ever be capable of and need. SHOULDER RATS ARE VERY SPECIALIST; DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO 'TRAIN' ONE WITHOUT KNOWING THE CORRECT PROCEDURES. This takes the perfect combination of a highly informed owner, a brilliantly socialised rat with the perfect personality, a lot of time and patience and the perfect Safe Site for training.

As it stands Rat Daddy has not produced a definitive guide on how to train a true Shoulder Rat, but there is a big thread easily found in the search bar if you wish to read more. They should only be Shoulder Rats if trained to be so from a young age and are the "perfect" personality. This is not a step of Immersion, just a way of conceptualising the development of the human-rat rapport and the ways in which the rats should behave at each step. These stages are not specific as every case of Immersion is individual to the rat and owner, they're just guidelines to gauge your progress with.


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## Rat Daddy

Ratclaws has added a bit of clarification, which I appreciate. Sometimes understanding a thing comes from hearing it in the way you best comprehend it. A different tone or voice or turn of phrase makes all the difference and with a technique as new as immersion that is based on a "completely new philosophy" every explanation helps. Well, perhaps immersion is not completely new, some people have been doing immersion successfully since the fancy began and rats have been doing it since the species evolved, but gravity was around long before Isaac Newton and I suppose his theory was considered new even though people weren't floating into space long before he came up with it. So I suppose immersion is "new" in that regard. 

Ratclaws writes about the pseudo-science of getting a feeling for a rat's personality... and he is absolutely correct, I describe this as "getting it". He's listening to and observing what the rat is telling him. It's difficult to describe but once you get it or rather listen and hear, it really is quite easy to reach into a large bin of rats and pick one out that will ride around the store on your shoulder, I've done it as a demonstration to the employees and customers of a big box chain pet shop. This is the same listening and observing that guides you through immersion. How did I know which non-socialized adult male rat to scoop up and carry around, because to me he was simply the only one that was capable of it and when I reached into the cage I was able to read his body language in how he responded to my hand. I knew immediately one rat would have bitten me, the others would have panicked and scrambled all over the store and that one was going to ride around on my shoulder. Once you start listening and observing and understand that rats are communicating with you, you will get it too. It's not pseudo-science, it's just hard to explain to someone that hasn't gotten it. I suppose it's like explaining being in love to someone who hasn't been there. The feeling is real but how do you put it into words?

As to ratclaws stages of rat development... there are definite landmarks in rat development, but they coincide with rat trainer development. The rat and the first time human going though immersion usually change together. For people who are naturals or have done immersion before, yes it's mainly the rat that changes; but for first time humans, it's actually the humans that change first and that triggers the rat to change. The biggest change is when you learn to listen to your rat and start understanding him or her and when the rat realizes you are sentient too and begins to reach out to you. This is followed in immersion by bonding that takes place so quickly that often you can't tell the two stages apart.

I do split shoulder rat training off into a separate category although it is a natural consequence of successful immersion. True shoulder rats need to be solidly bonded to their human alpha in order to have the courage to go outdoors and free range and come back home with their humans. However, jet air travel is a consequence of being able to fly but there's a big difference between Otto Lilienthal and Chuck Yeager. Whereas rat socialization and bonding is fundamental to all rats living with humans and immersion is the fastest and best way to accomplish it, shoulder rat training beyond the safe site is a high risk activity for the best human trainers with only certain rats. Yes a good trainer can work with a lesser rat (I can take Amelia anywhere, but she stays under my coat or shirt, she's firmly bonded so I won't lose her easily but I have to be constantly interpreting her moods and manage her various states of panic. If I put her down at the safe site and walk away, she'll run to and climb right up her safe tree and sits about three feet up, frozen in place, waiting for me to come get her. Fuzzy Rat will be walking behind me at heel leisurely munching weeds.) A really super true shoulder rat like Fuzzy Rat can work with a lesser handler, actually she can pretty much be outdoors with anyone at this point and come home on her own. But in general it's just best to draw a line at the safe site or better yet at the front door. Immersion and socialization stop before or at the safe site and true shoulder rats and their handlers step up to a new level there. I know it's just one small step for the right person and rat but it's a lethal mistake for everyone else. Because of the hazards involved it's best to draw a line and separate the two procedures and split the threads. This thread is about immersion for socialization and introductions and any indoor rat problems behavior and issues. And once you take your rats out the door, the discussion moves to the outdoor activities and shoulder rat thread.

Lastly, as choosing a new rat still falls into the general category of 'before you go out the door' and to preempt the question, as to whether there is any way to really tell which rat will be a true shoulder rat at the pet shop or at the breeder's or even during immersion, this question can be debated. But the most likely answer is "no" for lots of reasons best left to the shoulder rat thread. You know you have a true shoulder rat or at least a good candidate when you work with it at the safe site. Any preconceptions you bring to the safe site with you will only cloud your judgment and reduce your chances of success. Just try to choose a rat that's healthy, calm, inquisitive and friendly. There's no way you can go wrong with those qualities, no matter how you decide to proceed after immersion.


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## Rat Daddy

To expand on what Ratclaws wrote... you don't wind up with a brainwashed robot rat when you are done with immersion. When my daughter had her encounter with the wild rats, I couldn't actually pick out the alpha from the rest. As the alpha you sort of herd the rats, you set limits and goals and give leadership commands that are accepted as strong suggestions, but with regard to leadership, rats are metacognative like humans and function in sort of a democracy. So you might not rob banks, but might overdraw your bank account for a "special" purchase. Your rat may understand your "come" command perfectly but if she's busy running off with your snickers bar and decides that "come to daddy" might cost her the snickers she might decide against your command. After she hides or finishes the snickers, "come to daddy" for hugs and skritches and his other snickers bar might sound like a good idea again. As true thinking animals rats always make independent decisions. If your dad was having a heart attack and you were driving him to the hospital, and the sign said 40 miles per hour... suddenly the sign becomes more of a recommended speed and less of a limit. Humans and rats alike weight their decisions on the fly, but both species are predictable and it's in understanding and communicating with your rats that you herd your pack and manage their behavior. If you are holding the snickers bar when you call them, they are more likely to agree with you "come" suggestion than if they had to choose between you and the candy bar.


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## Rat Daddy

I just thought to add an afterthought... Immersion and immersion introductions are a socialization process that is followed up by the human actively managing their rat or pack hands on. Everything that you otherwise should be doing with your otherwise socialized rat still applies.

Immersion can't help you if you neglect or mistreat your rats. It won't fix problems that you are having because you are mishandling your rat or rats on a daily basis. Yes, perhaps if you have screwed up your own rats because you didn't know better and know better now, and you can fix the other issues you are having going forward, immersion might give you a second chance, but immersion isn't a method that can fix problems that aren't related to socialization or introductions. Make sure you understand what your rats will need from you on a daily basis and that they are healthy before starting immersion. Immersion can be a lot of work so you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot after you've got every chance for success.


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## ratclaws

Here are a couple more videos of a fully immersed rat in action!


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## Jess Of TheFatRatChannel

This whole thread is very helpful, i'm about to start immersion with my newest rat right now. Thank you, wish me luck.  (i've taken notes so i don't forget anything)


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## Erica15782

Firstly I appreciate you taking the time to read this. Recently I had one of my girls die. Her friend Rattwo is lonely. I bought the critter nation cage and two girls at about 10-12 weeks of age. I had to buy them from the pet store and it turns out they have no love for people. Skittish and such. They dont bite. 

Ive done 5 hours of immersion training tonight so far on the dominant girl. Jynx has literally fallin asleep at my feet. I know that she wouldn't even let me pet her before this, but how far is it I need to go to be alpha in one night?

I can pick her up for about 5 seconds before she loses her cool completely. Any tips on the proper way to pick her up would be appreciated. Im sure im doing ok but if I miss anything itll just slow down the process. 

Basically for a stubborn skittish female what are the things you say and do to come out alpha in an immersion session? I understand it will be different dependant upon the rat. I just need rough guidelines. Even just mile stones and how to react to them. 

Tonight ive gone from not being able to pet her to almost rolling her over to her belly to pet. My main concern is do we call it before I get her to sleep on my lap? She cant even stay awake right now and has fallen asleep with my hand wrapped around her. 

This is my stubborn one. My first rats I had ride on me when we were headed home from the pet store. These guys were to scared to even pull out until I was at their cage. I didnt want to lose them as we have two cats. They want to run away. 

Short version is this:
● rat started out not even wanting to be pet and ran like the wind away
●played for 4 hours now and she is falling asleep at my feet
● she won't securely let me pick her up
● how do I know when ive gone as far as I can with immersion training in one day? 

Thanks again for the help. After I get these two completely immersed I plan to introduce my older rattwo to the pack. This I havent read up on yet because there is so much to take into consideration on just getting them to love and connect and make me their alpha. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jess Of TheFatRatChannel

I just wanted to say...wow! Last nights immersion went so well with Tyrion. I started off in the usual rubber gloves and only suffered a few pecks and within 20 minutes i felt safe enough to take them off and handle him that way. I even had him coming to me for treats! Thankyou so much!


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## Jackie

Wow I hope someday my girls will let me tickle them like in that video. TOO CUTE. I don't know if it's that they don't trust me enough yet (I've had them since february) or that they can't sit still for a minute because they're still young adults. Maybe I'll try some tummy tickles today. They do cute things still like go up on my shoulder and groom my hair but sitting still isn't something they do often.


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## Rat Daddy

Erica, when a rat falls asleep on you, you have made immense progress. Imagine if you were locked in a room with a grizzly bear what are the chances you would snuggle up with him and fall asleep? You really have increased your trust level... Pretty much you keep doing immersion until your rat realizes you are an intelligent affectionate being too and responds to your affection with affection back. 

Don't get all confused over the alpha thing! It's really easy to understand once you let go of the hostility aspect of it... Sure if you are working with a hostile and biting rat you need to assert your dominance forcefully to make the rat understand it's place in your pack. This is the ugly and dangerous side of immersion and it takes a lot of courage and commitment to fix a truly screwed up hostile rat. But when you start out with a normal rat you assert your dominance by winning friendly play fights and asserting yourself playfully with your rat, calling her, talking to her, picking her up, skritching her following her around etc. You stay in contact, keep communicating, be omnipresent but not aggressive in the hostile sense. If your rat isn't challenging your authority... you be aggressively friendly.

For the most part, immersion ends when you feel that everything has changed. It's hard to describe and it varies from rat to rat, but usually your rat is engaging you and responding to your status as it's alpha (read as mom or dad). It may be showing affection where it never did before or playing with you rather than on you. It may be sleeping in your lap and letting you pet it. For a horribly screwed up rat... it just might not be attacking and biting you anymore and perhaps sitting on your shoulder. But overall you have to get your rat to a point where you can work with it and play with it on a daily basis and teach it it's name and basic commands.

Remember immersion is a process of meeting your rats needs and communicating with your rats in a way they can understand, it's not about forcing your rats to be what you want them to be. It's about bonding and building a foundation you can work on every day afterwards. 

At the end of immersion, a few rats will know their names, some might even pick up the come command, but mostly name training and commands come after immersion. My Amelia sailed through immersion and immersion introductions with Fuzzy Rat she knows her name and her commands, she runs to me when frightened, but she doesn't do skritches hugs or being petted nor does she give kissies to adults. She was badly neglected for the first 7 months of her life, perhaps even abused or mistreated. After immersion she sat on my desk like flowerpot for a few weeks. She has no foundation for affection in the normal sense and she isn't going to change. That said, now she'll roam the house and check in every hour or so, unless she falls asleep somewhere under something then she'll tag back when she wakes up and gets hungry. She's fully immersed and bonded and socialized, but she's never going to look like the rats in Ratclaws vids. There was too much damage done over too much time to ever give her back her childhood.

With Amelia, immersion ended when she was happily running around and climbing all over us and she was grooming Fuzzy Rat. She never let herself fall asleep during immersion and didn't hang out for lots of skritches or petting. My daughter could hold her and skritch her belly or pet her safely and Amelia put up with it from me even if she made it clear that she didn't much like it. At the end of immersion, Amelia was a member of our pack, bonded and communicating with us and Fuzzy Rat, she wasn't the terrified lost little rat we walked in with several hours earlier and she seemed happy and ecstatic to be part of our human pack. Maybe she still missed her old roommate or her former little girl, maybe she still does, but she honestly seemed like she wanted to belong with us.

Jess, Oddly some of the hard cases break pretty easy when you get it right. Some rats are actually attacking you to get your attention or establish order in their lives. Once they recognize that you are trying to reach out to them and they understand the pack structure they fall right into line and overwhelm you with the love they have been longing to share. These are among the most wonderful immersions; the Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jeckel transformations. The progress is so obvious you can actually see the changes happen like the lights going on.


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## mameur

i want to thank you officially for coming up with this my first three rats were extremely calm and loved attention they were three brothers my ex gf took them away when she left me last week, so i got this little guy blue who was very skittish from the get go but he was the only one left and felt i could do with a little challenge three hours after hes now sleeping in my hoodie the thing is this little guy would not eat drink water or anything he would stay behind a rock and watch me with one eye while trying to hide lol and now hes sleeping in my shirt and my hoodie youre a genius


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## Rat Daddy

Well you are quite welcome, I always love to hear success stories. Fuzzy Rat who taught me how rats think and communicate and never gave up on me, deserves her fair share of the credit too. 

I wish you and your little guy blue all of the affection and companionship we have with our rats.


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## Voltage

I know this is kind of a ridiculous question, but what do you do if you are in the middle of immersion and have to use the bathroom or have some other kind of emergency. I feel silly being the one to ask this but I do plan to try immersion when I get my boys this weekend. Also my rats free roam on my bed normally as I have nowhere else safe for them to free roam. Is it possible to do immersion on a bed or would I risk them running and hiding. I might bed able to set up barriers and take everything off the bed so they can't hide.


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## Rat Daddy

Sorry for the slow reply....

Yes you can go to the bathroom during immersion. And no I'm not fond of doing it on a bed. Which goes back to your ability to go to the bathroom. If your immersion space has 4 walls and a lockable door, you can leave your rat alone for a little while (just be careful when opening and closing the door). It also gives you a little rest so you aren't constantly wrestling with your rats to keep them on the covers. And most new rats aren't potty trained so your covers are going to get stained. I use an entrance hallway, some folks use a large bathroom, other's actually have bedrooms that aren't cluttered and some folks have large walk in closets or pantries and an outdoor safe site can even work. Your immersion space should give you and your rat maneuvering room but be small enough so you can stay hands on with your rat. Any rat I've ever owned could make it off the edge of the bed in about three long hops and that wouldn't do much to facilitate immersion if I had to move all of the heavy furniture to get my rat back. 

Best luck.


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## Anasko

i would like to clerify a few things, please.

If there are kids in the family as well as other pets what is the immersion going to look like? 

Our pet rats are supposed to be my 6 and 9 year old kids' pets. I am a 100% willing to assume the role of "Alfa rat" but I want my kids to feel personal strong connection with their pets as well. Ever since we brought the rats home the kids spend hours in the bathroom playing with them but I am not sure the rats bonded with them or accepted them as part of the pack. At least there was no biting anymore but not much affection either.

In addition we have a cat. She seems very curious but cautious about the rats. In one encounter Rainy lounged towards Misty, our cat, and Misty darted away. I am not sure if she got bitten or just freaked out. Before the rats have a free rein of the apartment I need to know rats and the cat can coexist. 


So this weekend is the rat weekend, I will spend as much time with them as necessary. Should we all go get locked up with all rats? Should I do it by myself? Should we take turns? When and how kids get into this equation? Do my kids need to spend time with each rat or only with one that is "their own"? When and how do we introduce the cat to the rats or visa versa, properly?

Thank you very much!!


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## Rat Daddy

I do immersions with my daughter, she was 6 for the last one. I actually let the kidlet do most of the work while I kind of sit back and supervise or rather referee. For the most part my daughter maintains the constant engagement.. I watch for the feedback the rat is giving... like when the rat becomes submissive and make sure my daughter or myself return the appropriate affection and acceptance. In all likelihood your rats will bond better with the kids than with you using this approach, but that's not all bad even if you are the person most likely to be the rat's care giver. Stay tuned in, keep observing, intervene as necessary and use your kids as an extension of what you would do if you were doing it on your own. New rats often bond with their new pack as a whole as I saw when the wild rats team immersed my daughter. Although I didn't see an alpha rat in charge, that's not to say one wasn't in the midst of the confusion directing the traffic. To be honest my daughter was quite intuitive at 6 years old, as she gets older I think I'm actually seeing that childhood intuition fading a little and it's definitely something we have to re-learn as adults. So my best advise is try and keep everyone on the same page and manage the action. The kids are of course a variable you have to manage as well as the rats, how easy that is going to be depends on your kids. From one parent to another... I find rats easier to manage then kids, but the techniques are somewhat similar. 

Successful immersions have been done with one person and multiple rats... multiple people and one rat and various permutations of the theme. Although one on one works best with problem rats, most immersions seem to work out well as long as they are directed by a single human in charge who keeps everyone on task and makes sure communication is established and the rats get the right responses they want when they need them.

My part wild rat attacked feral cats on sight. Her particularly aggressive approach to cat management kept her alive and cats out of my backyard for a whole summer. That's the extent of my experience with cats and rats. But there are folks that keep domestic rats and cats together as pets. I'm sure they will be happy to help you but that's a matter for a different thread.


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## Anasko

Thank you, Rat Dady! I will post the results of our immersion in my thread.


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## xbexidabestx

Hi there

I bought my first pair of brothers about 5 months ago. Rambo was a clear alpha. Then about 2 weeks ago an 8 and 11 week old (Sensei and Deisel) and introduced them to Rambo and Dexter. Everything went really well.

I will admit I didnt give the older boys enough attention for a while when I first got them, but came across a nice new cage and coudlnt resist my dream of having a little colony!! And now I have become obsessed.

For the last 2 weeks, every evening I have sat with them, they all take treats from my hands, lick yogurt from my fingers and Diesel even licked and groomed me, which shocked me as he was the most skittish (and youngest). I also get my hand held onto and gently nibbled on, am I right in assuming this is them grooming me?

Although I have come really far, and am convinced they sort of know their names  they are still quite skittish, theyll run and hide if i go to pick them up and when they are up theyll try and get down. But they will come and investigate me and climb on me of their own accord. 

I spent about 4 hours yesterday creating a large bonding pouch to go around my neck, and the younger ones will quite happily hop out of the cage into it, the older ones not so much. 

Have I been "accepted" as they will happily come to me for food, and as i said have groomed me. Or do I still have some way to go as they are still a little skittish. Or is this normal?

Thanks very much for the thread, I have never come across such an interesting way of getting to know your rat, I think its fascinating learning to infiltrate yourself into a pack. 

Thanks again

Bex


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## Rat Daddy

Of course you have a ways to go, and your long sessions and interactive attitude are going to make you communicate better with your rats and your bonds will only deepen.

Although in general, I've discarded the bonding pouch in favor of the immersion area because the immersion area gives both human and rat more freedom to interact and communicate to each other, and in the case of biting or hostile rats, that maneuvering room comes in pretty handy, the bonding pouch was one of the most successful techniques before immersion. As long as the rats don't feel forced into a sack I believe it serves to keep you in contact and that's why it worked; similar to my theory of aggressive engagement.

Sadly the bonding pouch was integrated with a practices that really are at odds with immersion theory like forced socialization. Immersion is based on communication and forced socialization was more of exactly what it sounds like. And maybe we tossed this baby out with the bathwater. Perhaps I'm also a little frightened about folks that carry untrained rats about outside their homes in open pouches, which as a shoulder ratter, I have fundamental objections to.

But if the bonding pouch works for you.. there's no theoretical objection to it under immersion. I think an immersion area or safe play zone will both be more fun for you and your rats and allow more freedom to explore together and more opportunity to communicate about different experiences you are sharing with your rats, but toting your rats through your daily activities and just being together is still better than leaving them alone in their cage.

So continue with your long daily sessions, keep engaging your rats, keep trying to communicate with them and being their alpha and try to understand their needs and wants. Once your rats truly accept you they will literally walk all over you and most certainly won't be skittish of you. That's not to say that certain rats with bad eyesight won't always be skittish of sudden movements or wild type rats won't always freak out over any loud sound, but once they know it's you they won't act afraid.

Immersion is based on the theory of rats being intelligent, emotional beings with a need to belong and certain communication abilities. Immersion practice is in my humble opinion the best and fastest way to implement the theory. But just like the round light bulb has long been the standard for even light distribution and soft illumination, a square light bulb is likely to keep you from falling over the sofa too as long as it's designed using the correct theory of running electricity though a wire in a vacuum. 

Not immersing your rats immediately when you get them home, and doing shorter sessions and pouches instead of the immersion area are less effective practices, but as long as you are reaching out to your rats and responding to them correctly your success is almost inevitable. That's why I spent so much time explaining the theory, I realize people have a biological need to tweak things. If you understand the whys your less likely to screw up the hows and whens. It sounds like you are on the right track.

Best luck.


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## NewRattieAnnie

Hi! 
I just got my first two rats yesterday. They're two males from a pet store. My Siamese dumbo rat, Socrates, seems to be the more aggressive (even though he's smaller), he's nipped at me a few times when I put my hand near him and freaks out when I try to pick him up. He won't attack me when I put my hand in the cage to arrange some stuff, though. 
Both he, and my other rat (Spock), will just sniff me. Which brings me to Spock, he is a very curious guy and is always sniffing and coming up to my hand (he's only nipped me once). Socrates will bite Spock sometimes but they cuddle and clean each other so I'm not sure if it's a major problem; and Spock will only try to mate with Socrates so I don't feel as if he's being aggressive.

Both of them will climb on the door of the cage when I come up and they'll both take treats from my hand and try to climb out of the cage, but they freak out when I try to pick them up. I'm not sure what level or type of immersion I should do with them. I feel like I should start with Socrates then Spock. Being a first time rat owner I'm somewhat at a loss about how to handle this. I really love them and I just want to cuddle them and have them ride on my shoulder and be out and about, without me worrying about them freaking out and possibly biting me.

As I said I'm very new to this and I'm willing to try anything to be best friends with them! Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Annie


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## Rat Daddy

You usually start with the more aggressive rat. And as to how the immersion goes depends entirely on your rats. Some rats start out with playing while others hide or even flat out attack you. Every immersion should end when you establish a bond and you holding skritching or snuggling with your rats. 

Unlike other socialization methods, you pretty much only have engage your rats and then follow their lead by doing what's appropriate. If your rat attacks you, you fight back and show it you are the boss, if it hides, you engage it softly and tenderly and be reassuring. If it want's to chase around and play, play with it. Finally it will approach you as a friend, some will roll over and want their bellies rubbed, others will climb up and nap on you wanting to be petted and skritched, and at this point you settle in for a protracted love fest. Normally rats nap together after they join a pack as a sign of bonding, as you most likely don't fit in your rat's cage and you don't want them in bed with you, you settle down and snuggle in the immersion area and or take them somewhere more comfy for a long snug fest.

Without restating everything that I've already written, I recommend that you do a search through the threads for immersion. There are a few that have been done in real time online. And you can read exactly what happened and when during the process as it was happening. You can see how the rats behaved at the start and how things changed as the process progressed. Remember you own immersions will be guided by your rats so yours won't be exactly like anyone elses.

Just keep in mind you are watching and listening to what your rats are telling you and responding in ways they would understand, think of them as children rather than rodents and communicate.

Best luck.


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## FamilyRatters1

So I tried to Immerse Trisha today, and all she wanted to do was climb on my hands and crawl up my arm. I think she just does this because she likes to climb. She's not immersed yet but she does trust me. I can just tell that there can be more done. I know that I have to immerse her but like I said, she only wants to climb on me. Can someone link me to a video of them doing it? I'm always in her face and petting her a scratching her, and all she does is try to climb up my arm.


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## Rat Daddy

The truly dramatic results come when really screwed up rats are fixed. When a rat stops lunging at your face and stops tearing your flesh and snuggles in your lap you get one of those amazing miracle immersions. This is similarly true of the super shy or fearful rats that just huddle in a corner when they approach you for the first time and want skritches and to play with you.


When you start out with a rat that's already trying to reach out to you by climbing on you, you still deepen and increase the bond, mainly by learning to understand her... but you don't necessarily get a clear moment where everything changes. Changes appear more gradual, as they are less dramatic. They are no less profound, just less noticeable.


For normal rats like yours your rat is talking to you... your just may not be hearing her correctly. She's climbing on you to get your attention, she's trying to interact with you and that is a good thing. In your case, as immersion is mainly a socialization method, it sounds like much of the work is done on Trisha's part. Now you just need to work on understanding her. Then it's time to move on to training. Start working on teaching her her name and the basic commands, like come and up on hand. 


Last night, Fuzzy Rat, our most amazing and loving true shoulder rat and co-founder of immersion, who has been very sick for a very long time, was in my arms most of the day and evening... At about 8:00 PM she pointed her head down to the floor and paddled her front feet, so I put her down, she tried to get to her favorite hiding place, but her back legs would no longer carry her and she only made it about 18 inches, so I let her rest a while and picked her back up, a couple of times she pointed her nose towards her cage and paddled her front feet, so I took her to potty. When I went downstairs and we were near the front door she turned her head backwards and paddled her feet saying "turn around... No! I don't want to go outside". I spoon fed her some yogurt and although she could barely swallow, she grabbed the spoon with her little paw and held on so she could still sniff the tasty treat... And finally she gave my hand a little kiss and slowly motioned her head to her cage... She was very tired, and although I didn't want to let her go, I offered her something to drink and I put her back in her cage in her most comfortable sleeping position... An hour later, around 4:00 AM I asked my daughter to check up on her, and my daughter called back to me... "I poked her and she moved. She's still alive!" In all reality, although I feed and take care of the rats, Fuzzy Rat's true human love has always been my daughter. I remarked, "Is that the last thing you really want to say to Fuzzy Rat?" My daughter stopped for a moment and said quietly... "I love you Fuzzy Rat..." And minutes later Fuzzy Rat let go having said her final goodbye to the human she loved most.


I realize it's kind of a sad story, but it's fresh in my mind. Still, right to the very last minutes of Fuzzy Rat's life she was talking to us and listening to us. Yes, we had two years to work out a pretty extensive vocabulary, and not every rat will try as hard a Fuzzy Rat to reach out to you, but that kind of communication and understanding is what you are going after. 


During all of the Fuzzy Rat drama, Amelia, who was being neglected, climbed up on me and started cleaning my teeth, she hadn't done that for some time now... and she wouldn't stop. I was about to put her back in the cage when I realized I had neglected to feed her, as soon as I got the food she hopped back in her cage and ate. So even Amelia, who rarely communicates with us in a meaningful way, did reach out when it was important to her.


Try to watch and listen, once your rat knows you understand her your relationship will only deepen.


On a final note... girl rats are gifted with lots of energy, sometimes they just can't stop moving... it's like they are stuck in high gear. This can make it harder to understand them and to communicate with them, but they don't love you any less. Don't give up, Amelia was neglected for the first seven months of her life and she really didn't think humans were capable of listening, but over time we are building a vocabulary for her too. All rats are remarkable and intelligent beings. Sometimes it actually harder for us to understand our rats than it is for them to understand us.


Keep up the good work, I think you are on the right track.


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## FamilyRatters1

Thanks Rat Daddy!! I found out today that Trisha likes to do the same with my teeth. It was strange. At the end Trisha just started grooming me and wouldn't stop for a good 9 minutes. I feel that was her way of showing her love, that we completed and she is now immersed. Thank you so much!!


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## Rat Daddy

Your welcome. I'm pleased to hear you and Trisha are on the same page now. Keep it up; you are well on your way to a beautiful friendship.


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## KittyTheRat

Hi there! So yesterday I bought two female rats from a pet store. I havent owned a rat since I was 10 or 11, now Im 15. I had no idea what I was doing with my first rat and she became very aggressive and unsocial. I felt awful once I began researching about rats about two months ago, because I wanted to get a pair of rats. So obviously I want to get things right this time because I know they are amazing and intelligent animals and make incredible pets. I have never heard of this immersion method before until just now and Im very interested. The females I got from the pet store show obvious signs that they have had little to no human interaction, they are skittish and afraid. Theyll let me pet them and havent bit me at all. So I was just wondering, how should I go about immersion with them? They do sniff my fingers when I put my hand near them and even nibble them and did come out of their cage. Since I have never heard of this immersion method I obviously havent done anything right according to it so far. When I got home with them I put the whole box they came in, opened, in their cage and let them sniff me and gave them treats. Then left them alone, waiting for them to come out and explore their new home. And once they came out and were curious I let them smell me more and I continued giving them treats and tried petting them, the would back away at first. They would nibble my fingers. Then today I got them to come out of their cage, one is more curious than the other. I have picked them up a few times but they dont like it and jump out of my hands. What do you suggest I do now? To begin this immersion process? Because I think it sounds brilliant. Thank you!


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## KittyTheRat

Also one of them is very skittish and anxious. She's always hiding. I know Im probably not 1OO% But I guessed that theyre around 7 weeks old.


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## Rat Daddy

Mostly, clear your schedule, find a comfy place you can manage your rats in and get started. I've pretty much outlined the process and ratclaws has added his version and it's just a matter of getting hands on... There are a few immersions that were done real time on line that you will find among the recent threads and you can see how other people did it on an hour by hour basis in some cases you will find my comments to go along with the process as it was happening. Try to pick out successful immersions that involve rats similar to yours. 

Some of the extreme immersions involve really screwed up biting rats, that's not your case so pretty much skip those. You should be more or less playing with your rats throughout rather than doing mortal combat with them. It's all about communicating with your rats and reacting appropriately to what they are telling you.


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## Numbok

ok, so my new 4 rats arrived, ive read this twice, im starting as soon as i get home

good luck to me


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## Rat Daddy

Yes, good luck, be patient try to make is as much like play as possible and stay with it... remember it's all about communication and your rat understanding you are reaching out to it and that it can reach out to you.


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## Numbok

they all fell asleep on my lap, the pups where easy to handle, the older ones had some trust issues, specialy the male, but they all ended asleep, weird thing was they took only cookies from me the rest of the treats caused no effect, it was great to hanldle rats for the first time, thank you for this very usefull info


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## Rat Daddy

A happy rat pack snoozing together in a pile up on their big human alpha... that is what it's all about. From here on out the training begins both for human and rat... Nice job.


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## Numbok

im very happy w the outcome, the albino male has bonded most to me, he now takes food from my hand w no problem


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## Andy and Kelly

Hi from a pair of rat newbies who are glad they found this site!

We bought a pair of girls from a national pet store chain a week and a half ago, and were actually told to leave them alone for a few days to settle in! After a week I thought 'this isn't right' and started hunting round the internet at which point I found you.

Fudge is, well, fudge coloured with pink eyes and is quite inquisitive though she isn't pettable. Brownie is actually brown and white and is very scared of contact. I started immersion training tonight, but would like a little advice: is it best to pluck the rats out of the cage and put them in at the deep end (which would seem like it'll be a bit of a battle and be stressful for them), or let them emerge from the cage of their own free will? I opted for the latter, and after 2 1/2 hours Fudge had scampered round within a metre of the cage for a bit, and Brownie got as far as getting her head and shoulders out. No real bonding as yet.

All advice gratefully received...


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## nanashi7

Andy and Kelly said:


> Hi from a pair of rat newbies who are glad they found this site!
> 
> We bought a pair of girls from a national pet store chain a week and a half ago, and were actually told to leave them alone for a few days to settle in! After a week I thought 'this isn't right' and started hunting round the internet at which point I found you.
> 
> Fudge is, well, fudge coloured with pink eyes and is quite inquisitive though she isn't pettable. Brownie is actually brown and white and is very scared of contact. I started immersion training tonight, but would like a little advice: is it best to pluck the rats out of the cage and put them in at the deep end (which would seem like it'll be a bit of a battle and be stressful for them), or let them emerge from the cage of their own free will? I opted for the latter, and after 2 1/2 hours Fudge had scampered round within a metre of the cage for a bit, and Brownie got as far as getting her head and shoulders out. No real bonding as yet.
> 
> All advice gratefully received...


Not so much as "pluck", as "corner and scoop". You can try to lure with treats, but I would say get them out and jump straight in. Make sure you are taking them far from their cage with you as the only interesting thing (I don't think you can really bond if they are too busy checking out the room). That's why people use bathrooms - small, not too many places to hide.


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## Rat Daddy

There's certainly a certain amount of stress associated with really getting to know humans for the first time. But there's a lot more stress being locked up in a strange cage surrounded by giant creatures you don't know. 

So basically with immersion you bite the bullet and go meet your rats. You try to do one long session so it isn't just touch and run. Your rats get to experience you up close and personal and learn that you aren't dangerous at all, then they realize you are trying to communicate with them and then they will reach out to you and you build a bond.

In the old days, short unproductive sessions were common. You scared your rat then put them away and then did it over and over... In immersion you work through your introductions in one very long session building one hour's experience on the previous one. Sometimes immersion happens gradually, but most often it's a light bulb experience for your rats who suddenly realize you are sentient and friendly. Some folks hang back and see if the rats will introduce themselves, but generally it pays to engage your rats so they know you are there and have to interact with you... try to be playful and friendly and watch for signs of communication from your rats. Pretend you are working with a new puppy or an adopted child that doesn't speak your language. And get as comfy as possible immersion can take a while.


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## Dinoclor

I've just got a few questions about this. Because me and my brothers take care of a rat each (We all pick a rat to "be ours" and take it out of the cage and play with it and stuff) if we got new rats what would we do? Pick one person to be the alpha? Do it all separately? (Or would that confuse the rats when they met up?) Or would you have all the rats and all of the humans do immersion together?


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## Rat Daddy

Well, my daughter and I handle our rats together and do immersion together with new rats and yes in the end we all play together, rats and humans. Rats will eventually pick their favorite human, but you should think of your rat pack as a family. If you think about it, your mom doesn't take care of one of you and your dad the other brothers. A pack is a family, you can play with your brother's rats and he or they should be able to play with yours. Over time all of the rats are likely to think of either you or one of your brothers as more of the alpha, likely it depends on which one of you is around more and plays with them most, but it won't matter much as long as you don't let the rats run amok and fight out of control. Please think of being the alpha as more of being a dad or a mom and not a boss or a dictator. You lead your rats with kindness and communication not force and intimidation. Basically your family already has a pack or family dynamic into which you bring your rats. So you don't have one pack living outside the cage and the other behind bars. Let your rats join your family.


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## freyagirl101

What if it seems like my rat doesn't want to be immersed? I'm currently taking her out on the couch to immerse, but she seems desperate to get back to her cage. Also, I'm sorry about your loss of Fuzzy Rat.


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## Rat Daddy

Thank you for your condolences Fuzzy Rat is very much missed around here. 

Example..... lets say we spoke different languages and you didn't know me... and I had $5,000,000.00 for you, which you would certainly want... So I motion to you to come with me to pick up your money and you motion back your refusal.... So I put a bag over you and toss you in the trunk of my car... Most folks might think you don't want to come along on a short ride to get your $5,000,000.00. I know that once I hand you the cash you are going to get over the rough trip pretty quickly. In fact, if you found out later that I had just left you be and kept the money you might even be more upset with me.

Explination.... Rats going into immersion don't know why they are being abducted and why their life is suddenly changing... once they realize that you want to be their best new friend and their life turns great, they usually get over the rude way you got them there.

Most immersions start out rough, but most immersions also end well.


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## freyagirl101

What should I do if my rat misbehaves? should I still give her a little bit of discipline to make sure that she knows her boundaries? Or is it all love and cuddles until she gets accustomed to me?


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## Rat Daddy

Mostly it's love and cuddles if possible during immersion. I mean you stop biting behavior right away because it's hard to communicate meaningfully with a rat that's attacking you, but for the most part training follows immersion. 

In immersion you want to create a friendship and open a dialogue, once your rat likes you and you can understand it and it can relate to you then you move on to training. Training might involve expressing your displeasure sometimes but you always use love and hugs first when you can.


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## CrazyEleanor

I tried immersion with my three month or so Ellie tonight. She was very shy of me at first, then just adventurous. She wouldn't want to cuddle or be touched at first, but when something from another room startled her, she'd hide in my lap or try to wriggle her way into the leg of my pajama pants. Eventually, after showing her that my hands weren't a threat and were what was giving her juicy little treats, she would let me pet her. She'd brux when I pet her, and while she munched on her berry while it was still on my fingers, and she spent a lot of time preening. Ellie started pouncing on my hands, and she would zig zag around my legs and hands, but she'd let me get a pet or two in, so Im not sure if that was playing or getting agitated. And finally, at the end of an hour and about fourth five minutes, she settled in my lap and let me stroke her and baby her while she yawned and would close her eyes, but after about ten minutes she got what I call curious and started sniffing around before darting under my knee (my legs were extended in front of me) and hiding in the fabric of my pants that was hanging down.
I'm not sure whether I really accomplished anything tonight besides her taking food from me, and then the few minutes of her yawning and laying in my lap. Any ideas??


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## Rat Daddy

Well a full blown immersion can take several hours, but lets see, she took food from you snuggled with you, let you pet her and obviously chose to be near you and even hid under you for protection... She also did a lot of preen thinking about being with you... 

Now I wasn't there but it sounds a lot like Ellie was reaching out to you in a big way. I know this might look like baby steps to you, but you are a great big giant and your little rattie is putting her life in your hands and even looking for your protection... She's offering you love and trust.... I'd say that's a very good first step... 

Keep watching and listening, pretend she is a child and try to translate her messages and "talk" back to her... Try to do long sessions to build on the trust you are building before you dump her back into the cage.

It sounds like you are on your way to a beautiful relationship, Ellie is taking the correct first steps to earn your trust, so now just meet her half way. Keep up the good work. Remember, rats don't speak human and you don't speak rat, so sometimes it's hard to understand each other or to make yourself understood, but once both sides realize the other side is trying to reach out, the rest is just mechanics.

Best luck.


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## CrazyEleanor

Thanks! And I would have stayed with her longer, but I was made to leave. After that though, she started coming to me when I put my hand in her cage, and she doesn't try to run away when I have her out. I wasn't able to fully do the immersion but thank you for the advice you offered! It did help me with my adventurous little girl 


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## ratsoff2ya

I adopted two female rats last week and was trying to find tips to expedite trust training when i stumbled on this thread. I live in a large house with ten other roommates so the immersion process can only happen in my bedroom. I've sectioned off an area about half the size of my room for the immersion training but due to lack of cardboard boxes i had to get creative and use a variety of plastic tubs, a laundry hamper, walls of books, etc. to create barriers. i'm only working with marceline right now because everything is pretty precarious in terms of being rat-proof and i don't think i can keep my eyes on both. here are the problems i'm facing right now:

1. marcy seems more interested in trying to climb out of the rat-proofed area than hanging out with me. this has been going on for an hour. 
2. she will approach me every few minutes and climb on me, play in my hair, etc. but if i touch her when she's running around (or especially if she's trying to escape) she'll let out an annoyed squeak. the laundry hamper is climbable for her so i have to pick her up and place her back on the floor every so often. unfortunately this really is the only place in the house that i can do this since there are so many people coming through, limited bathrooms, etc. i feel like this just won't be successful while she's focused on escaping.
3. she's relatively uninterested in treats. during the trust training process she wouldalways sniff what i was offering but seldom take it. i find it hard to believe that any rats AREN'T food motivated based on everything i've read about them, but my girls eat very slowly throughout the day, never rush to their food bowl at mealtimes, etc. Because of this lack of interest in getting treats I kind of feel like she has no incentive for hanging out with me. i have tried a variety of treats and had the same results.

blah. if anyone could offer some advice i'd really appreciate it ASAP since i'm trying to do this immersion stuff right now. this is bumming me out pretty hard because i've wanted rats over a year, spent a ridiculous amount of time making their cage nice, bought them lots of great food, etc. and i love them to death already but marceline in particular just doesn't really want to be around me much.


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## Rat Daddy

Some rats aren't very food motivated. Especially ones that were screwed up before you got them... But She's coming to you and offering to interact every few minutes... so she is trying to make contact... but just like you she has no clue what to do next, so give her a skitch and a hug, let her bounce off and repeat the process, keep talking to her, follow her about too and try to extend your contact intervals. If you want to give her treats... try junk food... For now forget the healthy stuff, we're talking snickers bars and fortune cookies in small doses.

Think on the fly! Pretend you are her.... you are in a small space with a great big bear what would you do to reach out to it to say you are friendly, what would you expect a friendly bear to do to tell you it wants to be your buddy and not hurt you?

Trust training often does more harm than good. Basically it's based on short play periods. So you bother your rat by dragging her out of her cage... then you hassle her for a while and then you plunk her back in her cage. What does the rat learn from this? It learns to endure you for a little while and then you go away. So maybe nothing, or perhaps that you aren't capable of communicating. Rather than an alpha you become a tormentor. The final stage of trust training gone wrong looks like this, you pull your rat out of the cage, it learns to bite you to short cut the hassle and you put it back in it's cage. So basically it learns that if it bites you you go away. As short sessions establish no communication, you become the invader you get bit and your rat feels powerful and starts thinking it's the alpha and starts attacking your other rats.... Very likely you may be undoing damage you created through trust training.

The reason for the gawd awful long session is so your rat understands that you are not going away, you are not a hit and run hassle, you are challenging her to actually notice you, you want her to preen-think (this is a rats deepest thinking) about you. Just like you are thinking about ways to communicate with her, she has to start thinking about ways to communicate with you. It's really that simple. By the time Fuzzy Rat passed away, she had a whole repertoire of commands she could give us, from pick me up, to lift me to food and water, to go right, go left, open the door, put me down etc, and she would reward us when we were doing them right with little rat kisses. She was more tumor than rat and had to be carried everywhere. So she worked out a whole series of commands to have us move her about to get where she needed to go. The rats you are working with are very likely just as smart, but they don't know you are capable of understanding them so they aren't trying to reach out....

Once your rat realizes you are smart and responsive too things will change. She will try and interact with you to get things she wants and she will try and understand what you expect from her and show you she understands you too. This isn't a matter of her coming to you for tasty rewards, (you are not a vending machine) it's a communicating building exercise. And BTW, when rats immerse new pack members into their packs, they don't pass out treats. They reward new members with belly rubs and mutual preening.

Lastly, don't panic if nothing happens for a while, that's normal, immersion often works in a light bulb moment rather than a gradual process... You are doing immersion because you and your rat aren't communicating, once communication is established things start improving very fast.


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## OwlEyes

Hey guys.  I just tried Immersion with my boy, Eros.

First half was in the bedroom, on a corner of the bed. It was going pretty well until I started cracking down on him. Making him acknowledge me, grooming him, stroking him, etc. If I stroked him, he would squeak a lot and poo. If I tried to flip him, he would fight against me instantly and squirm away, getting really anxious if I didn't let him up immediately. Eventually he kept trying to run over my leg and past me to get away, repeatedly. I got fed up and decided it was time to move this into the bathroom.

At first we started in the tub, but that last a total of thirty seconds, as he could try to get away by climbing up my body and onto the rim of the bathtub, which wouldn't be any different from what happened in the bathroom. So the floor was cleared of everything except me and him. I let him explore the area. After about twenty to thirty minutes, he started preening in the corner opposite of me and then started to settle down for a nap. I thought that if he was comfortable enough to go to sleep, it was time to get in his face. I started to groom, cuddle and stroke him again. 

Let me explain what I mean by stroking. I'll put my whole hand on his back and slowly, with gentle pressure, move my fingers down towards his butt. I don't know why he has such a dislike for his, but he'll start squeaking and squirming to get away. The first two or three times I did this, he pooed himself. I don't know if this was stress or submitting or what.

When I stroked him in the bathroom, he still squeaked and squirmed, but he stopped pooing. I personally think he just didn't have to go anymore, but could it have been because he became more comfortable?

He would let me pet him lightly and even stroke his ear a bit. When he had enough, he'd venture away and I'd give him a few seconds before getting his attention again. Eventually, when I would reach out and pet him, he'd come running over to me and curl up under my chin for pets. (At this point, I was getting pretty tired myself and was lying on my stomach.)

About the third or fourth time this happened, I started stroking his ear and gently rubbing his side. He slowly started leaning onto his side, letting me gain more access to his tummy. After several minutes, he was almost on his side and 90% asleep. I decided that enough was enough, as he was clearly very comfortable with me at this point. However, he never truly submitted. I imagine another session is required?

He doesn't take grooming well at all. When Apollo tries to groom him, he'll do the same thing, squeak like crazy and move away. I've never really seen Apollo pinning Eros on his back, and I've only seen Eros grooming Apollo a handful of times.

I really don't know what to do or if I'm doing things right. I don't know what the next step is. Please help?


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## Rat Daddy

"He slowly started leaning onto his side, letting me gain more access to his tummy. After several minutes, he was almost on his side and 90% asleep."

Re-read this sentence... That is about exactly how a rat would express it's trust and acceptance to another rat. I mean if it were afraid of you, why would it nap while you touched it's defenseless underbelly? 

"I decided that enough was enough, as he was clearly very comfortable with me at this point. However, he never truly submitted."

You aren't actually trying to beat your rat into submission, you are trying to communicate and make a friend, after immersion your rat might still have an independent personality, but hopefully he will trust and respect you. Once you get to this point, you don't normally want to stop, you don't want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. You stretch out and milk the heck out of this happy bonding time as long as you can stand the love. 

Not to worry you didn't do any harm... you might need another session, but next time when you reach the point when you are bonding stretch it out and capitalize on it. When a rat naps on you, it might not look like much, but consider what it means if your date ends with you snuggling all night or if your date cuts out on you as soon as you close your eyes...


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## CJMoore

Carly and I read through most of this thread. Then we did what seemed right with Kitty. 

Because we couldn't find a video demonstrating the process, we made one. 

http://youtu.be/1iEFAaPiH_0

It looks at the 2 hour process of Kitty's first immersion session in just 15 minutes. We would love it if someone could watch it and let us know what we did right and what we did wrong. We think it went AWESOME! My impression of the process is that my daughter was really able to understand her rat better and she fell even more in love with her and vise versa. I thought it was amazing to watch Kitty go from biting to snuggling in just two hours. Thank you for this thread!

We need to know if we handled the cage aggression correctly and if this training will help Kitty to not bite everyone (or does it have to be done with everyone who plans to interact with her?)


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## nanashi7

CJMoore said:


> Carly and I read through most of this thread. Then we did what seemed right with Kitty.
> 
> Because we couldn't find a video demonstrating the process, we made one.
> 
> http://youtu.be/1iEFAaPiH_0
> 
> It looks at the 2 hour process of Kitty's first immersion session in just 15 minutes. We would love it if someone could watch it and let us know what we did right and what we did wrong. We think it went AWESOME! My impression of the process is that my daughter was really able to understand her rat better and she fell even more in love with her and vise versa. I thought it was amazing to watch Kitty go from biting to snuggling in just two hours. Thank you for this thread!
> 
> We need to know if we handled the cage aggression correctly and if this training will help Kitty to not bite everyone (or does it have to be done with everyone who plans to interact with her?)


I'm no pro, that's for certain.
I would just say not to approach your rat with fear (the drawing back your daughter demonstrates) and many people say not to use gloves because it dulls the sensations. I personally like to let my rat smell my fingers, so that's why I don't use it. I've got bites right now from a current rat I'm working with due to my decision. Besides, I can feel nips either and respond to all of them to communicate no. My immersed rats understand boundaries. (Also avoid chocolate, only one type is good in small quantities).
For cage aggression, keep in mind your daughter approached with gloves instead of the human she knew. When she does nip, tell her "no!" firmly, blow in her face and then approach again. If she relents, give her skritches and a treat. After immersion, ideally your rat should listen or respond to her and so shouldn't need continually power-groomed. I only power groom if the rat wants me to or if we just played. It's something that is a sort of thank-you for being a good rat. If you want to use a similar tactic to power groom, initiate a challenge in the cage before pinning. If she accepts the dominance, then power groom. I would personally try with you as well because my girl only revealed herself as cage aggressive when someone reached in. I made my boyfriend continue to interact and play, but not assert dominance. I stood over her as her protective rat friend telling her when she was bad or calming her down when she was scared. The gloves are something the rats might be interested in pulling off which of course would be a nip.

Otherwise, she seems very happy and social. She clearly loves pets -- she looks like she is "melting", as I call it: when a rat bows it's back, lays out and closes it's eyes as if it just dissolved into a squish puddle. Let her return the favor to your daughter by fussing with her teeth, hair or nails. I think it is important that the love gets to go both ways.
Keep in mind she is a young girl in a new place. She's gonna be hyper and wander off. I sometimes have problems with my obedient female coming on command if there is something she just _has_ to see, but she gets around to returning and apologizes with kisses. I would try play wrestling with her, of playing with toys. Moving forward, I would sit and bond with both rats at a time.

Sorry, I wrote this as I watched. I couldn't really hear dialogue because my butt-head budgie has to be louder than everything in the room as a rule and got mad when he got the cage command. I tried to write everything I could see so sorry if it isn't productive 

Oh and for the head-rat, my male likes to sit there when he is particularly interested in seeing something and wants to show me where to walk. The sneeze thing - did she get a nose bop? My rat did that when I hit her face by accident.


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## CJMoore

Neither me nor Carly were willing to do this without the gloves. We knew it wasn't ideal especially when we saw how Saki reacted to the gloves. I felt really hypocritical asking her to pet Kitty without the gloves when I wasn't willing to do it myself! This was especially true when she got bit right after I told her to pet Kitty without the gloves ): 

I plan to do the immersion training also, but I am going to start with the rat that never bites. I am nervous about petting Kitty but hopefully I will get over that as a watch the bond between her and Carly grow.

We don't know what the sneeze thing was, Kitty didn't get a bob on the nose.

Thanks for the tips. Hopefully Kitty will be more interested in playing and grooming next time. If not I am sure Carly will enjoy snuggling with Kitty again.


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## OwlEyes

Wow that's a really good way to look at it... Thank you so much.  We did snuggle for quite some time. His face was way too cute for me to cut it short. ^^


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## ratsoff2ya

CJMoore, rats do not menstruate so if your rat is spotting blood it could be a sign of infection. perhaps she's aggressive because she's in pain? i'd suggest a vet visit ASAP.


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## CJMoore

ratsoff2ya said:


> CJMoore, rats do not menstruate so if your rat is spotting blood it could be a sign of infection. perhaps she's aggressive because she's in pain? i'd suggest a vet visit ASAP.


 Thanks! Kitty did go to the vet. The vet verified that she was not pregnant, but wanted to wait on the antibiotics just to make sure no babies came. The bleeding stopped and the vet said she didn't need the antibiotics after all. We are watching her closely.


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## Rat Daddy

First let me comment, I really enjoyed your video. Immersion is a communication and trust building exercise. Each immersion is different, it depends on your rat and you. Where I might zig left you might zag right but in the end we wind up at the same place. One of the hardest immersions I ever coached was with a young lady who bought a rat despite being terrified of rats and then midst her personal emotional meltdown decided to get her rat a friend, finding herself with her worst fears now realized in stereo. The rats really weren't too bad, but the human in the room was shy, withdrawn and terrified... I'm not going to describe the procedure but suffice it to say it turned into one of the longest and strangest immersions on record. But it eventually became a great success and a love story. But I learned in order for immersion to work, everyone needs to work within their comfort level. Even if you have to duct tape yourself into a dozen bath towels like a mummy and wear gloves. 

Our first rat was turned in to the pet shop as part of a supposedly accidental litter. It was supposed to be hand raised and was very friendly and responsive to us when we got her at about 5 weeks old. A couple of weeks later she began to attack us and she became very frightening my 5 year old daughter became terrified. It turned out she was the result of a recent wild rat crossing. I was pretty shocked when she actually jump from my desk right into my face and "bit me about half a dozen times before I could get her off. Then I looked into a mirror and there was no blood. The attack and the bites were only mock combat. So at the risk of life and limb I engaged her in what I hoped would be more mock combat and again she "bit" me in the fingers, and hands and even ran up my arms to attack my face... and again there was no pain and no blood. She was only playing. I've play fought with every young rat we've had since all mock bit me hundreds of times, although none were ever as aggressive as our part wild child. Some rats pups even needed to have a daily mock combat before we took them out of the cage. 

I don't know Kitty's history, if she has bitten for real and drawn blood, then you are absolutely right by making sure she knows you are the alpha and you are in charge and it's a very bad idea to bite the alpha. If kitty is only mock biting and play fighting, it's OK to go along with it for a while before winning the combat and flipping her to reward her for being nice and submissive. This becomes a judgment call you have to make on the fly.

I also liked how you gave Kitty time to preen think. It's important for a rat to think when it's changing it's mind. I also liked how you were paying attention to Kitty's behavior and trying to interpret it for meaning. When your rat is behaving a certain way because you are there, it's communicating to you. Remember, when aggression is not involved, you sometimes want to do what your rat wants you to do to show her you understand her too. Yes, it's very important for your rat to behave correctly for you, but it's also important for you to show your rats that you understand them too. This will make them want to reach out to you more and create a dialogue. Yes, sometimes my rats tell me they want to do something I'm not thrilled about, but if it isn't an awful idea, sometimes I'll go along with their "request" because I want them to know I understand what they want. If your rat always wants something and you never give it to her or let her do something, she might get the idea that you don't understand. 

Fuzzy Rat always wanted to go places or do things I wasn't on board with. And she would often get very persistent, until I gave in or she figured out a way to work around me. It would make her happy when she knew I understood her...

For an example... We were on a public beach when Fuzzy Rat decided she just had to go explore some bushes on private property next door. As there was a chain link fence I couldn't follow her through, I wasn't going to permit this. So she jumped into the ice cold water, as it was nearly winter and swam along the shore until she came ashore at the end of the beach, she darted across a few yards of grass and scampered up a field-stone wall and ducked through the fence and into the bushes. We were taken quite by surprise. Naturally I called after her and about two minutes later she popped back through the fence and was ready to get picked up, soaking wet and shivering. I have no idea what she did in the bushes for two minutes, and honestly have to assume there was nothing in there she really wanted. But when I picked her up she looked up at me as if to say, see moron, I just wanted to go to the bushes why didn't you understand? Got it now? Whenever we didn't do what she wanted, she just assumed we didn't understand and kept insisting on making her point, she could be very stubborn and persistent, but that was the way we learned to understand her. So don't be afraid to show your rats that you understand them too. Of course letting a rat explore the other side of a fence you can't get over still never becomes a good idea, no matter how often Fuzzy Rat did it to me. I honestly think it was one of her strange kinks to see us "caged" on the wrong side of a fence calling after her. On the up side she always came back... so yes, sometimes do what your rat wants you to do, to show her you understand, give her some latitude, but don't put your rat's well-being at risk...

Judging from the results I saw in the video, you are very much on the right track... keep it up and you are on your way to a beautiful friendship and a harmonious pack.


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## Rat Daddy

I forgot to answer one of your questions...

Wild rats will sometimes only accept a single human friend... their natural instincts make them regard humans as the enemy or a threat. So very often they become single master rats or at best become single family rats and may attack strangers on sight. Domestic rats tend to generalize much better and usually come to think of humans as friends in general. But rats are a mixed bag, there are still some domestic rats out there, especially recent back crosses... that need to warm up to one person at a time. This is part of each rats character and can not be changed.


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## CJMoore

Thanks Rat Daddy!Just one Immersion session has transformed Kitty into such a sweetheart! Yesterday she snuggled Carly while being petted for over an hour. Little Saki sat on Carly's shoulder the entire time waiting for her turn. As soon as I took Kitty, Saki came right down and climbed into Carly's shirt for her turn! The next Immersion session will focus more on listening to what the rats want to do and will include more playing. Saki has never drawn blood so she will be much more fun to immerse.


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## CJMoore

And, we loved your story about how your rat put you in a cage


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## Rat Daddy

You are very welcome... and once your rats realize how much they can communicate to you too things will even get better. Properly immersed rats become more like family than pets. 

And thank you for posting the video. Immersion is a radical departure from tradition and sometimes it's a little hard to grasp for some folks. Although every immersion is different, actually watching one done live will help people to get an idea of what to expect and what to do during the process.


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## AuntyKay

I just power-read this thread, all very fascinating, and I teared up when you told about Fuzzy Rat's last requests 

I owned rats before several years ago, but I know I never "got" them. Only one of the three I felt truly liked me. A week ago I adopted three brother rats who are now 5 weeks old. When reading your analogy comparing a new rat to an adopted child, and leaving him in his room instead of having him meet his family... I had this sinking feeling. I just let the rats accumilate in their new cage.

So anyway, I've taken the rats out several times, only one at a time, but the sessions had been very short. One of the boys seemed to have played with me, but since then he acted more like I was an enemy to be feared. So I want to do immersion so I can understand them more, and plan to set up the bathroom so they can run around more. These rats were well-socialized by their previous owner so everything "wrong" is on my end. They are otherwise normal young rats, very inquisitive, love nibbling/licking my fingers, fight eachother a lot, etc. They aren't poorly socialized, I just don't understand them yet.

Do you suggest having all three in the bathroom or just doing one on one? Since I'm unemployed, I have a lot of free time, so if I did one on one, it seems like this would almost be a full work day, haha. But I really want to be their friends, and I'll do what works best!


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## Rat Daddy

AuntyKay,

As your rats aren't likely to be biting or attacking you you can try either or both single and group immersions. With problem rats it's always one on one. One on one you can devote your full attention to one rat at a time and give it your full attention and get it's full attention. Naturally your goal is to be able to play and work with your rats as a pack.


Some people are great multitaskers and will engage their entire pack at the same time of course this is likely to take longer. But I suppose it's easier to start with one rat and see how it goes then the next one and the next one and then bring everyone together around yourself.

Remember, it's OK to be flexible, and make immersion all about your rats needs and your personal style. 

It's important not to rush and give yourself plenty of time to experiment and experience and communicate. So if something doesn't work right away, you can give it more time or try something else. Immersion is more like a taking a cruse than speed dating. If someone says or does something wrong, you have 4 more days at sea to work it out. If you try a group thing and it get's out of control, you can switch back to one on one, if you feel another rat will make the rat you are working with more comfortable you bring in another. 

The old methods were a mechanical approach, they only centered around what you did, immersion is about your rats' needs so try to keep yourself flexible to respond to your rats as they reach back out to you. It's almost better to not have a formal plan going in. Basically you engage them and try to reach out to them, then when they react and communicate with you, you respond so they know you understand and then you bond over the understanding you develop.

Basically, be ready to adapt to what's going on. You will be making decisions on the fly, some will be better than others, when one works your rat will tell you, when one doesn't you will know it too and change course and try something else. Some rats will respond to treats, some will play fight, some will want snuggles and some will just crawl up on you and nap. And in some cases you will get all of these responses at one time or another during immersion with the same rat. Some rats might take a very long time to even respond, but eventually they will, so you might have to just keep engaging it with the same or different techniques until it gets it.

So, no hard and fast rules... engage, make contact and communicate then share the love. Imagine going on a first date and your date gives you an itinerary, I'm sure it would be nice to know, going in, how the date will end, but for the most part I believe that people would prefer to made decisions on the fly and decide how the date will end after dinner and dancing.


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## YourSoJelly

Rat Daddy said:


> If you get it, your rats will get it and you will walk out with your new best buddy riding your shoulder. The actual procedure is pretty easy and it's very fast.


Will this method work with mice, like it does with rats?


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## Rat Daddy

I've had several mice, and unlike rats if you push them too far they bite. So I'd likely not push them as hard as I would push rats, but otherwise mice are pretty bright too.

I'd work around mice's shorter attention spans but otherwise it's worth a try. We had a mouse that came when called once so I suppose there's some communication possible. 

From my experience mice have a range of intelligence that approaches rats. Rats start higher and end higher but the smartest mouse I've seen would easily give a slow rat a run for it's money. Mice seem to be pack animals to a lesser degree, but they do seem to have some social structure at least among the females so immersion has a shot at working. Give it a try and let us know.


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## Mylandah

Hey Rat Daddy, thank you so much for this post! I tried it with my rat Chopper and I think it went well. He ended up letting me scratch behind his head and all, although he still squirms around after a while. 

However, I have another rat, Stark, he is really really scrawny and shakes a lot. I'm not sure if he's just breathing fast or if he's shaking, but it's a constant thing. I took him to the vet and she said that he was fine. 

My question is, since he's so scrawny and weak, and all he does is eat then sleep, should I try immersion training with him? He is really easily scared and can spend 8 hours hanging in the corner of the cage without moving, with no food or water. He is also not too fond of food. It seems like he only eats enough... then loses all interest in food. He will poo a lot when I pick him out as well. He's so tiny and weak looking... I'm just worried that I will freak him out too much and give him a heart attack or he will die from pooing too much... >< I'm being unreasonably worried here, lol.

Additional information: I have them for almost 2 weeks and they are around 2-3 months old.


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## Rat Daddy

Mylandah,

If your rat is healthy and suffering from stress related issues, immersion will reduce his daily stress, not increase it, if it is caused by fear of the new place or of you. You can't blame your rat for being afraid of you until it gets to know you.

On the other hand if your rat is really sick then it needs immediate treatment.

Some calls are hard to make, and I'm sorry but this is one I can't phone in.

Best luck.


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## Mrs. J

*Class pet immersion*

Hello, I hope someone can help. I am getting one pet rat for my middle school classroom. I am fine with getting aquainted with our soon to be furry family member, but my fear is my students. How can I ensure that my little lady will feel safe with so many little hands wanting to play with her? Also, I want her to be a shoulder rat are there any tips on how to achieve this? Also, is a leash a good or bad idea? Thank you in advance for all your help!


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## Rat Daddy

I'm already thinking of how many ways this can go wrong and end up on the nurse's office.

So lets redefine the scene. You are going to get a rat and you can bring it to school with you, but basically you will socialize it and train it and introduce it to your kids under your supervision. Perhaps you might think of getting two rats and you can bring one or both to school with you. You have a lot to teach each day in your classroom, if you let your kids interact with your rat a few hours each day it's going to crimp your lesson plan. And if you keep your highly social single rat locked up all day and alone overnight like an exhibit animal it's going to go anti-social. 

I'd recommend you set up two cages, one at home and one at school. Then you need to find either a rat pup or a very nice calm and friendly rat or rats to start with. Then you need to work with it at home until you know it's friendly and won't bite. Then you take it to school and introduce it to your classroom. I'm not sure what grade level you are working with, but depending on the grade level or your subject you will make the necessary adjustments in child appropriate supervision.

Optimally, your rat(s) can go to school with you every day and the children can have a rattie play break every day. And everyone will have great fun, including the rats.

Fuzzy Rat loved children, she went down a slide with 5 little girls and came out with her tail cut and bleeding, she didn't bite anyone and ran to me for help and reasurance like an injured child runs to dad or mom. But not every rat can be a true shoulder rat. I had a part wild rat that would have left all five children in a pool of blood at the bottom of the slide if they tried that with her. 

I wrote the thread on shoulder rat training which is a must read for your situation, but your situation is a special one. I think it deserves a new thread of it's own. 

I do believe that rats can become wonderful classroom pets, and I think it might make for a great project thread. I think it would also make for a great outline to give your principal if necessary... My wife is a teacher, so I can get her input too. This is definitely doable.

So, if you really want to do a class pet rat or rats, please start a thread on the topic. Remember rats are much more like dogs, not hamsters. You should get a much higher degree of interaction between the students and the animals than you would get with hamsters, but your rats will have greater needs in terms of their care and the amount of attention they will require. 

Outline your plan briefly in your thread, include what age and grade level your students are, what experience you have with rats and what facilities you have available and I'll help you choose the right rats and training and perhaps even help you wump up a few lesson plans or project outline. Other folks here can add their suggestions and the thread can serve as a guide to other teachers interested in doing the same thing.

I don't mean to make this into a major project for you... but I have a great deal of experience with rats and children... Fuzzy Rat's principal job was to attract children and make new friends for my 5 year old daughter who is an only child and not very good at breaking the ice. Walking a rat at heel past a playground guaranteed that she was going to have lots of friends to play with. Of course it also guaranteed that the rat was going to be dragged around, chased about, skritched, petted, squished, dropped and manhandled. 

Fuzzy Rat also attended handicapped children's affairs and did great with most except autistic children that would typically watch her from a distance.

Fuzzy Rats last public appearance was at the most recent 4th of July Town event, after the fireworks show she still spent about two hours entertaining kids and people. She was about 6 oz of rat and 21 oz of tumors. She still made new friends and kids that had known her in the past were happy to see her again, but sad when I had to explain that she was very sick and it was most likely her last public appearance. She couldn't lead us back to the car anymore, but she was still friendly and gave kisses to all the kids that pet her. A shoulder rat like Fuzzy Rat would be great for your children, but this has to be done right or things can go sideways fast.

Post your outline on a new thread and I'll be happy to help make your project a stellar success.


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## snickelfritz95

My sister and I just got two new rats one we rescused two of them were purchased. We have a daek grey one (rescued named angel) a white and grey one (marie Antoinette) and a white one (snow white) Snow white sneezed thw whole first day we got her and isolated herself I'm thw cage. When we called petco where we got her they said it mighht be the scented cage liner. So ee put her in a smaller cage with uncented bedding. Now the sneezing isn't as bad. But she's still staying in a corner and pretty motionless she eats but she won't leave thw corner. My sister and I live separately and she has the rats at dads she said it looked like snowy hadn't moved since this morning. About 15 minuets ago howevet she finally got her out of the cage for about a half hour. Shes still sneezing but not as much and she's starting to move around more. We still have her isolated fron the other two who aren't doing anything like snowy is. Any advice? We don't want to have to bring her back or for her to get sick as we've already grown attached. What can we do? Wed like to get her back in the big three storu cage with the others


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## Rat Daddy

Although, this is not a typical immersion issue, some rats start sneezing pretty much the first time they come into contact with humans. I've seen this twice with the rat pups. I would almost say that it looks like an allergic reaction.


The best way to describe this condition is that it usually starts minutes after the rat is removed from the pet shop cage or bin and lasts for up to a week. About the only way you can tell this condition apart from an upper respiratory infection is that it does not get worse after day one. The symptoms slowly go away. In the case of an upper respiratory infection the symptoms usually come on more slowly and get worse over time. Not all rat pups or rats develop this new rat syndrome, but it is very common. I realize that it's hard to do nothing but basically all you can do is watch and wait and hope for improvement. I might add, that rats afflicted with new rat syndrome usually continue to eat and show no other signs of illness. It really does look a lot like hay fever.


Basically, you should be able to still interact, comfort and introduce yourself to your new rat despite the sneezing. I certainly wouldn't suggest you undertake overly strenuous activities with your new rat and I would keep her warm, well fed, hydrated and comfortable as best as you can.


If the symptoms start to get worse you are most likely dealing with a respiratory infection and your rat should be brought to a vet. I hope that helps.


Best luck with your new rats.


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## Mylandah

Hey Rat Daddy, 
Thanks for your tips. I did manage an immersion session with my scrawny Stark, and he now seems much more relaxed. I'm hoping that this will encourage him to eat more. 
Although this question is unrelated to immersion, but are there any ways to "beef up" my rat? He doesn't seem to enjoy eating that much. 

Here's a photo of him on our second immersion session, he would now just run up to be and sleep next to me. Thanks again so much for your help!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=170543119798231&set=a.168984176620792.1073741827.167876546731555&type=1&relevant_count=1


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## Rat Daddy

My part wild rat never got over 10 oz and was fit trim and sleek. If she started to gain weight she would actually stop eating and go on a diet. Feeder type rats get comparatively huge, at over 20 oz for a girl.

Genetics comes into play here. Basically you have to determine what's normal for your rat and watch for changes. If your rat has wild rat genes it won't like much change in it's diet. Wild rats are reluctant to try new foods. So if you try and feed different foods every day he may not be as willing to eat properly until he knows what each food is.

The best way to plump up any rat is with human junk food. But there are very likely lot's of good health reasons not to feed your rat pizza and snickers bars once they are an adult.

I realize that immersion seems counter-intuitive at first, but it's based on the way rats think and what they need so it usually works better than you might first expect. I'm glad it helped Stark relax more.


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## lcs

So, I am in the middle of immersing our three new baby girls - been at it for about two hours or so now. These guys have been well socialized-no real fear and they are very high energy!! They've only stopped for brief periods a couple of times. They are constantly climbing on and off of us. They've all bruxed and one boggled and we've played with them - chase the hand mostly. I also tried a bit with getting them to know their names and we definitely made some progress.

Now what? Do I need to wait until they tire out, because that could take a while, I really should get dinner started, and my butt is getting sore!


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## snickelfritz95

So my sister and I got two baby boys today rounding our count up to five rats. Three beautiful girls and two very cute little boys. When we first brought them home we put them in the smaller cage and put the girls in a basket while we cleaned the big cage. Is it weird that when we put the boys in the basket with the girls other then Antoinette (our first one) following Splinter (older of the two baby boys) around and sniffing his butt they didn't really pay much mind to eachother then once the babt escaped (Ninja is his name) we put him back in his cage later joined by Antoinette. And again they really paid no mind to eachother. Finally cage was cleaned and fleece put in so we put all five ratties into the cage ans they all are drank did their own things. Not really bothering each other a few sniffs here and there Splinter in awe watching Antoinette on the wheel. Is this normal that they get along like this? All of our purchased babys are relatively well babys except Angel who we rescued she acts like the mommy rattie. Before we went out we played with all of them and then re-separated the boys and girls. Is this normal did we do anything wrong? When would it be safe to put them all in one cage?








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## September

Hi, I was wondering if I could get some advice.

I'm getting three girls from a breeder in a couple of weeks. I expected bonding/training to be a breeze, of course--Good breeder, daily handling from day 1, healthy babies, piece of cake.

Tonight the breeder messaged me to say that one of my girls got attacked by an older rat that she was housing them with during weaning. Physical damage is minimal, but she's apparently been hiding in a corner ever since. So now I have to worry about how to work with a nervous/traumatized rat. I had originally planned to do a group immersion session with all three of them as soon as I got home, before even putting them in the cage, because they were all used to handling and had solid temperaments, continue with group sessions for a few day, then start in on one-on-one sessions. But if this girl doesn't bounce back from this, what should I do?


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## Rat Daddy

lcs,

It sounds like you are doing very well, if you feel you session has made progress and your rats are bonding with you you can call it quits, but keep up the good work with long daily play sessions to reinforce the bond and complete their basic training. When you start with well socialized rats immersion pretty much involves play and learning to communicate with your rats. It's relatively easy and fun.

Snickelfritz95,

It's nice your rats are getting along, but I'm not sure if you are suggesting keeping boys and girls together in one cage, unless your rats are neutered or spayed you are going to need a larger cage sooner than you think.

September,

I've had two baby rats attacked by older female rats. Old female rats can be particularly sneaky and strike quickly and without warning. One rat that got shook up went anti-social and the other that really got punctured badly shrugged it right off almost as soon as the bleeding stopped and by the next day wanted to play with the rat that bit her. Normal psychologically healthy rat pups are very resilient. Tweaky rats don't need much to send them off the deep end.

I'd say that within two days much less two weeks the baby should be fine if the breeder cares for it and comforts it properly and it has a healthy and normal personality to start with. If it's still screwed up in two weeks, I'd pass on that rat. You are going through a breeder for a reason, to get a happy, healthy, well adjusted rat, there are plenty of shy and screwed up rats at the pet shop. 

It's nice the breeder told you your rat was injured, but it's also her job to straighten it out. If a professional breeder with lots of experience can't fix that rat in two weeks, odds are against you ever winding up with a rat that 100% right.


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## snickelfritz95

We have the huge petco rat manor 3 levels and a smaller cage and we keep them seoerated when we aren't there but they get along so well we put them together when were home. Is that okay? And how can you tell if they are speyed? We rescued one and it didny occur to us to ask. 

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## Lovingly

Snickelfritz95-
Rats can breed in a blink of a eye all your females are most likely pregnate. And with a average of 8-12 babies a litter you are looking at 24-36 rat babies since you have three females. And those babies are going to grow up fast. Where do you plan to keep 24-36 rats? Hmmm?


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## Xerneas

Yeah, like Lovingly said they are incredibly fast breeders. They're probably getting along well because they want hanky panky ahaha. If they've been kept together they could very, very well be pregnant... Almost guaranteed if they are not spayed... I would keep an eye on them and not do it again...


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## snickelfritz95

They're only together when we're around and one of our girls keeps to herself running around the cage. One of our boys. Ninja is barley 5 weeks old and Splinter is maybe a week older and ninja likes to keep to himself too only really plays with Splinter. But they are seperated whenever we leave the room or for school. 

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## Rat Daddy

Wild rats engage in extensive foreplay involving chasing and running about, mostly because sex only lasts a few seconds. Domestic rats have been known to get right down to business and again sex only lasts a few seconds... 

My pet shop small animal department manager claims she has never seen a rat get pregnant under 8 to 10 weeks and that includes thousands of rats, but most of the rats they sell are sold as snake food, so they aren't being kept around long enough to verify that statement. I only adopt female rats that are under 5 weeks old or have been kept in sex seperate housing by PEOPLE I trust. My local Petsmart had a "male rat" give birth to 14 pups so I don't buy adult female rats from stores. Spaying costs over $100.00 in most cases by most vets, people that sell you spayed rats will usually tell you if they invested that much money in the surgery without you asking. It's pretty safe to assume your rats aren't spayed.

And don't count on your girls being chaste, Fuzzy Rat was an amazing shoulder rat, but when she got on the scent of a wild boy rat when we were outdoors and she was in heat, she became hypnotized, she preened up and hopped off like a bunny rabbit tail up and following her nose like a guided missile. She didn't even know we were there. If she wasn't so vain and had to preen first and so silly-bouncy like a teenage girl at a boy band concert, we would have had lots of very interesting pups.

It's not that anyone wants to sound harsh, and I realize your rats love to play together but a female rat goes into heat every 5 days. Based on rats being smart and sneaky and only needing a few seconds to do the deed, you are a telemarketer phone call away from being a grandparent to a couple dozen bouncing baby rats. No judgment... but you wouldn't get anywhere near my girls if you were carrying a male rat, much less letting yours play with mine even under supervision. I know exactly how sneaky my girls are and I know better than to think I could outsmart them when it comes to something so important to them.


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## Dinoclor

I think an immersion training FAQ would be useful, because this is a very big thread and lazy people won't want to read through it all. Just a Q and A type of thing. Just a summary of the questions you're asked the most and answers to them, and a brief summary of immersion training or something.


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## Auvreathem

I'm sorry if you have already answered things like this. I don't need a lengthy response. So basically I started out with 2 rats, and they accept me. The lick me all the time and like to climb on me a lot. I never taught them commands though, and they always hide whenever we go outside. I've had them for about 6 months, and I'm wondering if it would be too late for them to notice I'm an intelligent being? I'm really interested in interpreting them and teaching them some commands. I feel so bad I didn't know about this earlier, but all rat sites teach you differently.


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## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> I'm sorry if you have already answered things like this. I don't need a lengthy response. So basically I started out with 2 rats, and they accept me. The lick me all the time and like to climb on me a lot. I never taught them commands though, and they always hide whenever we go outside. I've had them for about 6 months, and I'm wondering if it would be too late for them to notice I'm an intelligent being? I'm really interested in interpreting them and teaching them some commands. I feel so bad I didn't know about this earlier, but all rat sites teach you differently.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I immersed a one-year old screwed rat that I rescued and we are fast friends. It should be perfectly fine; if I can get through to a rat biting the crap out of me I think your girls should understand 
View attachment 78842


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## Rat Daddy

Briefly, 

Dinoclor, Before this guide there was no official guide to immersion, it was a new theory and practice I only taught one on one and we've just let it grow organically. The critical information is in the first few pages, but people are welcome to read on until they feel their questions are sufficiently addressed. People should also feel welcome to start new threads regarding their own immersions.

Avureathem,

Sure an immersion may help to deepen your relationship and signal to your rats that things are changing then follow it with daily play sessions and command training. As to outdoors, some rats really have issues when going outside and will hide or even panic and run away. I have a thread on shoulder rats and outdoor activities that will address this topic for you. Whereas immersion is the most basic step in rat ownership, shoulder rats is the most advanced and dangerous kind of rat training. I'd rather not discuss shoulder rats on this thread on immersion which is intended to be helpful to first time rat owners as well as more advanced rat owners.

Immersion is likely to be useful to most rat owners and it will help most rats to get to know you and join their new family. True shoulder rats are very rare, they need a special personality and a skilled trainer and handler or they get killed or lost pretty quickly. Basically all children should learn to walk but few should practice it on the high wire with no net. Although I teach both immersion and shoulder ratting please let's keep these two topics separate for the sake of folks that might get confused. For outdoor questions, either start a new thread or add to the appropriate thread on that topic.


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## Kyleee Dupper

*Hello*

I have 3 girls and I am 14 and I am scared to pick them up because I don't want to get bit (I already got bit). And I want that relationship with my rat but I am do scared I don't mean to be I just am! I need help to not be scared anymore and to hold them and carry them and have a relationship that is awesome


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## Rat Daddy

Kyleee,

I understand your problem and I've worked with some adults who also bought rats they were deathly afraid of. And with time an a great deal of courage they made it through. 14 years old is a tough time... by the time I was 14 I'd most likely been bit by nearly everything that crawled swam flew or slithered I could catch in the woods. Tetanus shots, blood poison and my Doctor's guide to local snakes were pretty familiar to me. But some other young folks aren't so comfortable with things biting them. And rat bites hurt!

My first thought is to enlist an adult friend or parent in your immersion project, preferably someone who has worked with rats before. When working with biting rats someone might get bit even with protective gloves and gear. Immersion with biting rats is a recommendation I don't make to young people.

Normally for first time rat owners I recommend rats that have been socialized by someone else or friendly rat pups. 

The worst thing you can do is leave your rats unsocialized in their cage, they will only get worse without handling or training. If you can't find help, you might consider re-homing the girls you have and starting over with friendly rats from a breeder or nice little rat pups.


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## Kyleee Dupper

Ok thnx I will be trying that on Friday because that when my friend can come over she has rats and she is 21


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## Rat Daddy

That sounds like a great plan. Internet advise is great and we are all happy to help you, but sometimes having an expert right there with you just makes everything easier.


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## las92

Okay, so my problem rat hasn't been aggressive toward me in about a month. I refuse to put my hands in her cage because she likes to lunge at me when I put my hands near it, so I usually have to lure her out and snatch her up when she comes out onto the door of the cage. I've let her free roam before, and all she does is wander about two steps, sniff a little, and run right back up to me and climb up to my shoulder. I'm not sure how to start the immersion process with her, because she genuinely doesn't like being on the floor. She's much more content sitting on my shoulder or cuddling inside my shirt.

I also have a question that isn't really related to immersion, but I wasn't sure what this meant. So the other day, Lyla was inside my sweatshirt and had been sleeping for a long time. I woke her up because I accidentally put my arm down with her in the sleeve (I totally forgot she was in there), and I wanted to make sure she was okay. About 30 seconds after she woke up, she nipped my arm right above my elbow, which hurt a lot because it's so sensitive there, but she didn't draw blood (she has before). I assumed she was trying to tell me that she wanted to go back to her cage or that she was hungry or something, but I'm not sure what that nip meant. She had been with me inside my shirt for about 3 hours. Any suggestions?


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## Rat Daddy

Rats can sometimes use biting as a form of communication, in fact they usually do; as in "I don't want to come out of the cage" CHOMP or "Let me go" CHOMP.

Whether its fear, hormonal aggression or communication... biting is not acceptable, EVER.

I do want to add one thing here that addresses "cage aggression"... Some rats are blind or functionally blind. They don't know what's grabbing them so they bite. This is dealt with by first talking to your rat so she knows it's you, then letting her sniff you before you pick her up. If this doesn't work, then your rat knows it you when she attacks you.

In immersion you really spend time getting to know each other, and you deal with biting regardless of what causes it. With the possible exception of a blind rat or a wild rat, every rat can learn that biting is not an option... ever. There's no case in which you are a friend outside the cage and an enemy inside the cage that's acceptable.


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## idogiam

I just brought home two fuzzballs yesterday (well, two days ago - on Tuesday) and socialized them, but only for about an hour and a half each. They were calm and complacent, one giving me little kisses and bruxing, one curling up on my neck and calming down. I realized today that they haven't been getting any water from their water bottle, which I quickly resolved, and now Jinx, the one who was incredibly calm and wanted to sleep most of the time, seems to think he's alpha. What's going on? I'm going to do more immersion with him tomorrow, but I'm so lost. I don't feel like I understand "rat" at all and can't figure out what they're trying to tell me, or how to firmly establish myself as alpha. Summer, the other one, is still perky and happy to be held, skritched, etc. - he's super squirmy, but he doesn't act like he's running away from me, just kind of trying desperately to explore everything. But Jinx has taken to nibbling on my hand if I put it near him in the cage - not biting, because it's not painful, but definitely a new behavior. He's also now starting tussles with Summer and bouncing around the cage.

I guess basically, I have no idea what's going on and could seriously use some outside opinions! I know ideally I'd have an experienced rat owner meet them and help me out, but I don't know any, unfortunately. Please help!


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## dracazula

Like a lot of people in this thread, I'm dealing with time limits on my schedule and had to cut my first immersion session with my two new rats short today. We definitely made progress - they went from constantly cowering in the corner to running back and forth between me and the corner, but they're still very timid and they instantly flee if I move or make a sound. It's curious because they're comfortable enough sniffing my hand to search for treats or climbing around on my shoulder (haven't bitten once) but if both of us are in the bathroom on the ground they instantly flee me in favor of the corner. Is there some way I can get them more comfortable with me as a mobile being, rather than a stationary object that sometimes has food?


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## Rat Daddy

idigiam,

Unfortunately there's not universal translator from English to rat and back. And yes, that's the reason immersion takes so long, so far there's no short cut to just knocking on the door and waiting for the rat to answer. But keep in mind your rats are smart and are hoping for you to reach out to them, so they are working on figuring you out just as much as you are trying to understand them. Immersion manages to condense what used to take weeks or months to do, when I first introduced it the wow factor was that immersion could be done in one day not a month... now we're looking for even faster ways to get through... Well maybe someday someone will. Try not to work with your rats in the cage, try to keep them out on your turf as much as possible and discourage any painful nibbling or biting, not to be confused with grooming or playful painless nibbling. Rats know exactly how hard they are biting you. But get in there and put your self in front of your rats, you are 100 times their size and it's easy for you to push back if they get pushy.

dracazula,

As I just said you are 100 times your rats size, they know you could just step on them, so it's only fair for them to be cautious. So lets say we dropped you into the polar bear exhibit at your local zoo, how long do you think it will take you before you curl up with the bears? How would you understand that the bear is trying to reach out to you? Perhaps if you haven't been eating in an hour and a half you might be willing to approach and take a treat from the bear, but you are sure not going to stick around just in case he's luring you into a trap with bait. You sound like you are doing fine... just schedule more time and stick with it.

Before immersion, people spent weeks trust training or forcing socialization without success, some of the folks here have locked themselves up with hostile biting rats for over 12 hours before they succeeded with immersion, but compare 12 hours to three weeks or even three months of getting bit. It just takes the time it takes, immersion is the short cut.

You both sound like you are on the right track, engage your rats, try to communicate with them try to listen to what they are telling you and try to respond as if you were working with a child that doesn't speak you language. If your rat is scared try to be comforting if he's pushing you push back, try to think about what he's doing or telling you and think up ways to respond. Remember rats are very smart animals, they will figure you out if you give them the opportunity.


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## KittyKat

RatDaddy - can't thank you enough for your guide. I stumbled on it after bringing home two young female rats from a breeder this week. I've never had young ratties before, normally get old men rats from the humane society. So this is new territory for me. The rats are my kids' pets (8 year olds), though I'm the parent responsible for them.

It just seemed so wrong to just put them in their cage and leave them there for a few days. Anyway. We have been spending a lot of time together as you have described in your guide.

One rat is 2.5 months old, the other is about a month and a half. They lived in the same cage at the breeders.

The younger one seems to be a party animal. She is happy, and confident, climbs all over the cage, and when we free play in the bathroom, she climbs and is exploring and all over the people, then on the towels, then trying to jump into the tub then...generally, an outgoing rat. The other one is not at all. She hides in the cage, trembles, will not come out to eat if there are people in the room, and when we bring her into the bathroom, she cowers in fear and shakes.

So far, we have been making a bit of progress by using a little towel to cover her, and she sits in my daughters lap in the "nest". My daughter sits for hours like this (even did schoolwork like this today). She can pet the rat, stroke her ears, legs, belly, the rat just sits there in the "nest". When the towel is removed, the rat dives down into her cross legged sitting, and stays there and cowers. After a couple of days of this, the rat does come out a bit an poke her nose out, but then will RUN back in. She can pick her up (has to be firmly, not too tight or anything, but a loose hold has the rat jumping out of the hands - we always SIT with the rats), and pet her belly. 

But generally, the rat just seems scared. All. The. Time.

I know, we are giant polar bears to them. But even in the cage? Which is a critter nation, just like the breeders. 

Do you have any hints to help our scared girl become a little more confident?


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## Rat Daddy

Some rats especially with ruby or red eyes are practically blind. They will often learn to explore but will take time and it will be slow going as they eventually map out a room or even a whole house using whisker feel and smell alone combined with a great spacial memory. Other rats have been damaged by abuse or neglect and will also take a long time to get used to a new home and new people. But as I gather it, your "shy" rat loves to hang out with your daughter. She's building a bond of trust and love and feels protected by her. This is great!

Whatever the cause, slowly start to get your shy rat familiar with a space and let her explore it. During the superstorm Sandy we were in the dark for three weeks and pretty much let the rats free range. In the absolute darkness and quiet our ruby eyed shy rat came into her own and became very very comfortable free ranging the house only showing up for meals and play time. She's not blind the dark and quiet gave her confidence to first explore one area then another. Having a true shoulder rat as a friend also helped a lot. Fuzzy Rat never had any issues with exploring new places and having another rat to follow around gave her more confidence, chances are that the worst issues our new rat had were more caused by neglect and abuse than by weaker eyesight.

All in all it took about a month for Amelia to go from a flower pot on my desk to the elusive shadow lurker she is now. If I let her free range, she will usually turn up once a day to eat and go potty and around 5 AM to wake me up and check in by stomping on my face and waking me up for a quick skritch. Outdoors where she isn't familiar she's still a complete nervous wreck.

Just give it time for now, watch and wait. Perhaps let her start exploring under a couch and then keep the lights low until she gets a feel for the entire room and then on to the whole house if you can and she isn't destructive. Some rats are destructive and can't be allowed to free range, other's make great companions and really don't even need a cage. Right now both my girls are being very good and all I have to worry about is stepping on them.


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## fellgrail

Hi Rat Daddy, thanks for the great training method!

I'm a new rat owner and used it on all three of my rats.

I was hoping that you could explain the differences I see between my rats, whether it is just personality, or if I have to do more immersion with some. 

I have 3 males, the first is about 3 months old, the other two are about 6 weeks. This might play a part in what I describe below, but I do not know. Do younger rats behave differently after immersion compared to slightly older? 

My first rat, Ralph, was a textbook case of a great rat who likes humans. We bonded over 4 hours, there was definitely a 'lightbulb moment' and he groomed me, liked to sleep on me, and knew his name. He lets me rub his belly for a few seconds and offers no resistance. He is shaping up to be a great shoulder rat if I choose to take him that route. 

The second rat, Brain, was more hyper and aloof. He would let me pet him, but would be very squirmy if it was in my hand. After training (4 hrs again), he never slept with me or groomed me (which has me a bit concerned), but he would let me hold him longer, would accept food for me, and when I made a hidey hole out of a blanket with my head and hands, he chose staying in there with me receiving scritches over going to any of the other hidey holes in the room. He would let me roll him over and pet his belly, but not for very long (maybe only a second or two). 

The third and final rat, Pinky, is the least personable of the bunch. A ruby eye, but appears to have alright vision. Pinky was very docile, if I picked him up he would just stay there for many minutes, even bruxing. But otherwise he seemed very shy. He didn't explore the room much at all, preferring to stay in a hidey hole. I had him out by himself for an hour, and when I saw he was very shy, I thought maybe bringing Ralph out to join him and lead-by-example might help. I played and cuddled with the two of them for an hour, and my session was cut short.

I never managed to be fully dominant over Pinky, he would not let me scratch his belly. He never slept near me or groomed me. I feel like I should have another session with him, but I would love some insight into why he can be both very cuddly when I pick him up, even bruxing, and shy of me the rest of the time. Is there a behavioural problem here, or should I treat him similarly to the rats I've mentioned above?

Finally, I'd also like to know if you would consider Brain to be fully immersed? As I said, I can pet his belly a bit, and he does enjoy scritches etc. But I've never been groomed by him, and he has never slept on me. He is also very hyper still. 

Is this just a personality difference between Ralph and Brain? 

Thanks again for your help, Rat Daddy!


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## Rat Daddy

First of all my personal experiences with ruby eyed rats is that they do seem more shy and tweaky personality-wise. And for the most part they don't appear blind and navigate well indoors. I can't say eye color is the factor.

Second younger rats are more hyper. We're going through the terrible teens with a girl now she was hand raised and spent her first month snuggling with us and napping on us and now has trouble sitting still. Her personality is all over the place from super friendly to running around like a nut to going into hiding for a whole day at a time. Rats of different ages act differently, just like humans. Eventually they will all pretty much settle down. When Fuzzy Rat was a teenage girl and she got on the scent trail of a wild alpha rat bad boy she had to be dragged kicking and clawing back to the car. Not only did she forget her training, she forgot who we even were. And she never really did give up her passion for bad boys, she just slowed down and was easier to handle when she smelled one. She also always liked wandering off and exploring on her own, and sometimes rather than recall her we would just follow her around and let her lead us, and when she got old she got tired quickly and didn't play anymore, she napped in the grass and wandered back to the car when it got dark. She went through just about every stage a human being does; snugly pup, fierce play fighter, adventurous adolescent, rebellious teen, responsible adult and reflective senior citizen. She was always a special rat, but with every stage we lost something about her we loved and gained something we learned to love too. When she was 3 months old she would chase around the playground with my daughter and the other little kids, when she was over two years old, she would sit on the bench next to me and watch the children play occasionally napping, occasionally waking up for skritches from people that passed by.

Third, yes all rats have their own personalities. There is a very broad range of "normal". And "normal" for a rat really isn't necessarily the best pet we all hope for. A normal rat would never become a shoulder rat for example. Normal rats are wild types, they are crepuscular, reclusive, high strung and potentially aggressive. They often don't make very good pets at all. The truly amazing rats like Fuzzy Rat are anything but normal, the rats we like to think of as the perfect ones are actually the freaks of the rat world. Between normal for wild rats and super stars like Fuzzy Rat is where most rats fall. Much has to do with how high strung they are and how they were raised. We hand raised a part wild rat and she was loving and competent, but she couldn't tolerate loud noises or strange people that weren't properly introduced. Under the right situations she was the best behaved rat we ever had and would be the first to come when called. Under the wrong situations she could tear someone up faster than they could react. Amelia panics outdoors but can be sweet and competent indoors, Max is a true shoulder rat, but doesn't much like strangers and Fuzzy Rat was a true shoulder rat that actually posed for pictures and would walk right up on strangers to meet them like a friendly puppy. Each and every rat we've owned had a different personality. And then within that they will still surprise you. The other day I went out to pick my daughter up from school and Amelia rushed to the door to ride along outside while Max preferred to stay indoors. After Fuzzy Rat died Amelia became very withdrawn and now that she has Max for companionship she's down right social. So rats can even be responding to emotional states that we haven't a clue about. 

Basically, every rat you work with needs to *not bite*, be handle-able and should trust you and be reasonable trustworthy or at least predictable. Even the tweakiest wild type rats usually become affectionate friends, that doesn't mean that they usually ever become big squishy snugglers or true shoulder rats (although some do). 

You have to do immersion up to the point that you have built a relationship with your rat. You need to break the ice and be able to understand each other and be able to predict each other's behavior. Basically you should leave the immersion area as good friends. It's not a marathon "beat your rat into submission" thing. If you feel you have more work to do to make your bonds solid, by all means do more. It never hurts.

But, immersion can't end with the immersion session. Immersion is only the beginning of the great love story between you and your rats. Every day you and your rats get together and play and chase each other around the room or snuggle or even attend fireworks shows you are deepening and enriching your relationship. 

I realize that immersion theory is named after it's most spectacular accomplishment... the immersion session, but it's all about building a relationship based on understanding and communication between rat and human. As long as you are relating well to your rats you can move on to regular daily play and training sessions and integrate your rats into your daily life, like a family dog becomes part of your family over time. 

So... more immersion sessions would be required if your play sessions aren't interactive or if you feel your rats are distrustful of you or you feel distrustful of them. Otherwise you can just keep making progress in your training and play sessions. Remember long sessions are always better than short hit and run ones.

And lastly, you do need to be accepting of your rat's individual personalities. You can't force a rat to be what it isn't. When Fuzzy Rat died my daughter wanted Amelia to take her place, after two weeks of being out and about with us she started just peeing on us as we walked into public buildings and hiding under the furniture for days at a time. Rather than becoming more confident on the road, she had a complete nervous breakdown. I did another immersion with her to re-establish trust and we've kept her mostly indoors and at the safe site and she's become a friendly and well adjusted rat again who sometimes even enjoys going outside for a little while. 

It sounds like you are doing great so keep up the good work, try to enjoy your rats for the individuals they are and work with each according to it's abilities. No doubt one will become your heart rat or most favorite, but you will be very surprised how attached you will become to each and every rat you share your life with.

Best luck.


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## fellgrail

Thanks for taking the time to reply Rat Daddy, what you said has really helped me a lot. 

Yesterday I interacted with the rats for maybe 4 hours total. I let Ralph sleep in my hair under a blanket fort for maybe a half hour, and then later in the day when everyone was active I took them out and we all seemed to have a lot of fun running around and through blankets, and jumping off my hands.

Even Pinky, whose immersion session was shorter than i would have liked, acted very similar to the other two. Certainly friendly, playful, and inquisitive. 

In fact I had so much fun with these guys I had intended to spend an hour and it turned into more than 3. I think that must be a good sign! 

Thanks for the help!


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## Rat Daddy

You are very welcome. The important lesson here for anyone reading this thread is that immersion is only the beginning of the bonding process and moreover the friendship. It gives you a place to start out as friends. Every day you play and train your rats their names and commands deepens the relationship. And a 3 hour follow up play session the day following immersion is a great way to start your new relationship with your new best furry friends. In fact, everyone should spend a few hours a day, every day with their rats. Rats are like dogs, their lives are wasted trapped in a cage. The most successful rat owners find ways to integrate their rats into their daily routines. Napping. cooking, cleaning, reading and watching TV with your rats is a fun way to share time with them without feeling trapped yourself. Even rats that like to explore and only come back to you every so often for hugs or skritches enjoy the time out of their cage and the fact that you are available when they want you. There's no rule that play time can't be productive time too.


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## ShiloWindy

So my rats came from the pet store, they basically ignore me. I started immersion with one today and he basically looked for a way to escape, all the while I never stopped following him while petting, touching, etc. But eventually, he just gave up and sat in one place and didn't do much. He let me touch him with no problem, but didn't move unless I picked him up and placed him in a different location, but would go right back to the previous spot. I worked with him for about an hour and then put him back since he seemed tired. Is this a normal reaction? Have I made any progress?


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## Rat Daddy

You'll find around here most people have normal play sessions with their rats that last two to three hours. Immersion can run 4 hours, 8 hours and there's been a few that ran over 16 hours. One hour really doesn't count as a play session much less and immersion. In the bad old days before immersion people worked with their rats for weeks or months to socialize them and 8 hours was a warp speed break through. Now I understand that lots of folks want things to be "instant", but seriously, even with humans it usually takes more than a hour to make a new best friend... and we might even speak the same language. 

Short sessions don't help, sometimes they actually hurt. So you are likely on the right road and out of the driveway, but you've got a ways to go before you get where you want to be.


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## ratsaremylife

What category would my rat fall into. She does not really attack but has jumped onto my shirt and crawled up very fats and possibly aggressive? She will sometimes try to bit if I chase her with my hand to touch her. She also lies down, stretched out and watches warily.


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## Rat Daddy

Ratsaremylife,

It's hard to respond to your description. Young rats do mock bite and mock attack. "Try to bite" and "possibly aggressive" could be rat play. Whereas, I usually look for the word "bite" before I regard a rat to be aggressive.... Note, I'm only working from you description having never seen the actual rat or your interaction with her. Most rats are through with play fighting after they are about two months old, if that helps. And I'm not suggesting you should get bit to figure it out one way or the other. But I certainly get the feeling you are uneasy with your rat, and I'm guessing she's uneasy around you too. One of the more unusual immersions I've helped with, was a young lady who actually was terrified of her reasonably normal rats. Aside from the obvious contradiction involved in buying a pet she was terrified of, there was the added complication of her buying him a friend. This took quite a while to get this trio through immersion. But through the use of coats, towels, gloves and other armor we finally did get the human to let the rats bond with her. It was one of the more unusual cases where the rats had to do most of the work. I'm not saying that's what we have here in the least, but my thinking is that you should make yourself as comfortable as possible going into immersion and armor up if you feel uncomfortable; at least until you can determine if your rat is playing or actually attacking you. If she lays a nasty bite on your oven glove you have your answer and you hopefully aren't bleeding as a result.

If it's play fighting, it's a good thing and you play fight your way through immersion. We raised a part wild rat pup once and her idea of play fighting was to jump into my face from my desk and lay about half a dozen mock bites on me before I could swat her off. The first time it happened, it was pretty startling, but I wasn't in pain or bleeding so I realized she was playing. Still it was pretty disconcerting.

If it turns out your rat is being aggressive, it could be out of fear or out of dominance. Fear looks defensive as in run away, snap and run away some more... If it's aggression, it's attack bite and attack some more. Although sometimes an aggressive rat will run back, mostly it will stand it's ground and is confrontational. In either case you have to deal with the biting first. If your rat is being aggressive in an attempt to push you around asserting your alpha status will get the biting to stop and if your rat is biting out of fear, it's also likely to understand you are it's social superior and stop trying to bite you. Rats are often afraid of you because they can't understand your relationship to them. Once they see you as an alpha leader they are actually more likely be less afraid and want to bond with you more. 

You may be thinking, what if you make your rat more afraid? It's a good question, but things really don't get worse than a rat that's trying to bite you. Once you stop the biting you will have plenty of opportunity to make friends and build a trusting relationship. There's really nothing you can do with a rat that is attacking you until you get your rat past that point. In the scale of rat behavior we define worst as biting and everything else as better. So even cowering in the corner is way better than biting. You can work with cowering, you can't work with biting. Above and beyond everything else, is your safety. Rats that can't be trusted can't be safely kept as pets.

I hope that helps.


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## ratsaremylife

Hmmm... Well I started to do immersion I another room. Now she will sometimes come over and explore and take a treat or two but she sometimes makes a move towards my hand and I pull back. She has threatened with her mouth open to try and bite me, but I pull back my hand before she can. She also hides whenever I make a move or a sound. She is lots braver while the other 2 are out with her. I get so scared about being bit or nipped... I'm pretty sure it's fear. She'll come over, sniff my feet, crawl on me, sniff some more. She makes moves to come and sniff my hand, then nip or bite. Usually a nip. But she always sniffs first and looks at me with big scared eyes, then nips and bolts.


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## Rat Daddy

Yup, that sounds like the person who was afraid of her rats. You see you can't let your rats push you around. Try oven gloves. You need to be able to safely handle your rats. It might take a confrontation, but if you back off whenever your rats challenges you, you are going to get bit sooner or later.

This is one of those really stupid catch 22 situations... your rat doesn't get used to being handled until you handle her. You don't handle her because you don't want to get bit, so your rat doesn't learn "no biting" and will eventually bite you. You can yell and bop too if your rat snaps at you. But rats learn not to bite by physically interacting with you. It may be unfair to say your rat is aggressive or even afraid, it might just be that this behavior works for her to control her interaction with you.

Long ago I knew someone who got everything they wanted from their partner by threatening to leave. Half way through the door the other person always gave in... It wasn't that the first person wanted to leave, but it was a tactic that always worked. Had the second person not backed down over and over this pattern of destructive behavior would have stopped the first time. If the first person really wanted to leave, they wouldn't have come back in time and time again. Some behaviors aren't what we think they are, they are communication strategies and a way for a rat or a human to control a situation. 

Once a rat knows that the sky is going to crash down on them if they try and bite you or anyone else, they are not going to tempt fate for whatever reason. This is especially true of your rats have a more constructive way of communicating with you and a better relationship with you.

In the case of the poor human that was terrified of her rats, she was actually lucky that her rats didn't really want to bite her in the first place, and it was all more or less in her mind. She was finally able to armor up and push back a little. It finally came down to explaining if her rats are sitting on her shoulders licking her tears off her cheeks, they were most probably not attacking her, within a month, she was able to shed her coats and gloves etc and build a healthy relationship with her rats. 

For new rat owners I always recommend pre-socialized rats or pups. Adult or agile juvenile rats can be very intimidating.


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## ratsaremylife

She is a petstore rat that was separated from her only friend so that may not really help. She grabs anything that's pokes through the bars viciously... I'm glad it's not my finger. I never give them treats through the bars or anything. I sometimes poke paper through the bars so they can pull it through and use it as bedding. I'll wear my moms leather gloves.


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## Rat Daddy

Always treat your rats as intelligent and being capable of learning. Sometimes we have to teach them limits. For the most part any bad behaviors you let go, will get worse. Sometimes I poke food through the bars, sometimes it's my fingers, either way I'm not getting bit. If I raise my voice they get the message... They pretty much know that NO! means No, but by the time I get to "Have you lost your (*@&ing little rodent mind!?!" Their either diving for cover or pretending to be an innocent model rats. Either way, they bookmark their bad behavior so they don't repeat it. A gentle bop on the head sometimes helps get their attention too. As a rat alpha, read as parent, sometimes you have to be just a little bit of a disciplinarian. 

Max knows I don't like when she steals documents from my desk, I usually just swat her when I see her swiping paper out of the corner of my eye, but she can take all of the tissue paper she wants to build her nests... So this morning when I got up, she was out all night and it got cold... There's a trail of unrolled toilet paper running from the bathroom to the kitchen... the roll is in the bathroom the other end is under the furniture in her nest. So I suppose she figured she could just reel in the paper from her nest as she needs it and not have to carry it there... It might not be what I intended to teach her, but that paper could have been my income tax receipts otherwise. Rats are very smart and if you teach them the rules they will learn them. They will still find ways to annoy you, but at least things will be better than worse.

Biting through the bars should be discouraged as should all biting.... One day you might have a little cousin over and it could end badly if your rats bite anything that pokes in through the bars.


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## ratsaremylife

Thank you Rat Daddy. She has been improving and will come over to me but prefers to not be touched. Should I put her in a large bathroom and follow her around petting her and scooping her up and cuddling? Should I flip her onto her back and pin her there?


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## jorats

I have a question for Rat Daddy, where do you get your information, like immersion, rats are thinking when they preen and such? Are you a biologist? A behaviourist? Zoologist? How long have you been keeping rats and how many rats have you had? I'm very interested in the science behind your "methods".


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## Charlottesmom

jorats said:


> I have a question for Rat Daddy, where do you get your information, like immersion, rats are thinking when they preen and such? Are you a biologist? A behaviourist? Zoologist? How long have you been keeping rats and how many rats have you had? I'm very interested in the science behind your "methods".


Not to be a wiseacre but I would also like to know this. I can't be sitting in a little room with a new rat for 4, 6 or even 8 flipping hours so I can become an alpha to him, I personally do not feel you need to become an alpha to any animal, friend is good enough for me and hopefully for my critters. Of course I do not do stupid things like shoulder my African Grey, as shouldering a big bird is asking for your eyeballs to be plucked out. Kellie (my African Grey) and I have a mom/daughter relationship but I am her friend first and foremost, no dominating necessary. It just seems to me that immersion from what I have read might scare the more timid of rats, think about it, you have the rat trapped in a room with no escape, of course the rat will eventually come over and try to make friends....it probably just wants out of the room. I'll have to reread but doesn't this all happen for the first time fresh out of the car, the rat doesn't even get to see his new home and settle in...BTW, you mentioned RD, that your rat came home sitting cageless in your daughters lap in the car. That in my humble opinion is extreamly dangerous, what if this rat that you just met decides to freak out and start flying around the car, car accidents happen for a lot less. It seems to me your new rat would be much more comfortable/safer in a darkened quiet carrier, rats live in dark areas and like small closed spaces not wide open cars. Back to immersion, It is in my opinion the same as being held against your will in a room with your captor (a kidnapper if you will) eventually you give in and try to make friends, you just give up...there is an offical name for that but it escapes me at the moment. This is all just my opinion, I know a lot of folks on this board follow your methods and do have some success.


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## Rat Daddy

Jorats:

I never set out to found immersion, I just helped a few folks with problem rats based on my own knowledge and experience, other people read the threads, tried it for themselves and I posted this thread by request.

I'm pretty sure I told the story before, but I'll tell it again...

I was a psychology/sociology double major at Rutgers University back in the late 1970's and early 1980's when rat running was all the craze... Like everyone else I've kept moderately updated through the internet.... and some light reading...

But in all reality, a few years ago we adopted a certain feeder rat pup as a pet for my 5 year old daughter, that turned out to be very unusual. First in that she became a true shoulder rat and secondly that she worked out a large vocabulary of behaviors with which to communicate her desires and even her feelings. In fact when she was training us a new behavior she would reward us with kisses when we did something right. By the time she passed away she was quite disabled, she was about 6 oz of rat and 20 oz of tumors... She would point her nose towards the direction she wanted to be carried and tap her feet meaning go forward, when we waked in the right direction she would lick my hand, if I went in the wrong direction she would tap her forepaws again and point her nose in the correct direction... As soon as we corrected our heading she would lick again to reward the correct behavior. I she needed to go down, she would tap her feet and point her nose down, this was useful when she had to go to the bathroom when we traveled with her. That's just a very simple example, some of her behaviors were very complex and would take quite a bit to explain... but suffice it to say for the most part they were very precise and repeatable. Her mind was perhaps limited by her inability to generalize but most of her behaviors were directed at doing what it would take to influence our human behaviors. 

When I was in college preening behavior was described as a fear/stress response it was common in both mice and rats that were being shocked with no way out... When a rat couldn't resolve it's problems it would start preening... I once found a mouse in a farm yard and I tested it... I chased the mouse until it realized it couldn't escape, it was trapped out in the open and if started preening... this was about 1983. Naturally I found the behavior quite remarkable, like everyone else I assumed it gave up hope and was doing a zero sum behavior... Well after a few seconds.. the mouse ran in the opposite direction and got away.... I really never thought more of it, like everyone else I thought of it as an interesting "footnote"....

Preening behavior was very common for Fuzzy Rat, right from day one. When she was about 4 weeks old we took her into the front yard and my daughter let her go about 20 feet from me and I would call her and she would run to me... this repeated 9 times precisely.... on the 10th attempt she stopped and preened, then rather than run to me she ran down the sidewalk diverted through some hostas and firelillies and dove into a large planting of shrubs and hedges. She disappeared into the leaf litter and didn't come back out, in the precisely same spot she went in, for 45 minutes. My daughter and Fuzzy Rat liked to play rat soccer at the soccer field. Fuzzy Rat would set a goal, usually the bleachers... she would try to run around my daughter to get under the bleachers, my daughter was the goalie. When I let her go, she would always run right, and she was quite easy to catch, because she would try the exact same thing over and over... then she would stop to preen, afterwards she would run left over and over... then she would stop to preen again and this time she would zig right and zag left and get by my daughter and under the bleachers. Rather than making her open field running decisions on the fly, she mapped out her play like a football coach might and then ran it. Each time before the play would change there was the preening behavior. Although I've rarely seen this kind of behavior in any of my other rats with Fuzzy Rat it was quite clear that if she was preening she was about to do something new.


It was an overcast and rainy day, and Fuzzy Rat had decided to go to the car... this is her preening as she mapped out her course of action... she ran down the stairs, went under the apparatus avoiding my daughter and me, cut across the playground onto the paved trail then across the bridge and on to the parking lot and the car... I actually have a video showing her going back to the car. She had an amazing ability to map vast distances by sight or something like pigeons use.
View attachment 98441



This is Fuzzy Rat finding herself way up in a tree, the weather was warm and breezy and it made for a nice time and place for a long preen think.
View attachment 98449



This was Fuzzy Rats typical method for meeting strangers. She would walk up to them, keep a respectful distance and wait to be approached. It's pretty much the exact way we introduced her to strangers when we traveled.









This is Fuzzy Rat walking at heel... when she saw a camera or cell phone she would always look right at it... over the course of her travels she was asked to pose for hundreds of pictures so as soon as she saw anyone moving a camera to their face she would look right at the camera and pose.








What made Fuzzy Rat such an excellent communicator and perhaps an excellent subject for study was the precision of her interactions. She would methodically repeat the same procedure until she got the results she wanted... if that didn't work she would preen think and try something else, again repeating the procedure until she was understood... 

Sure before Fuzzy Rat, I knew we could influence rat behavior and that rats would act in a way to get something, but the idea that a rat would also be trying to influence our behavior to get what she wanted and give us rewards was really quite surprising for me. I repeated many experiments many time just to make sure I hadn't lost my mind.

Another example of communication is when I approach a door my rats want to go through such as the front door of the house... every rat I've owned runs down my arm to where I'm inserting the key into the lock... Fuzzy Rat would push the back of my neck as in modeling the pushing behavior she wanted me to do with the door. While the normal behavior a rat uses to indicate that it wants the door opened is to run towards it, Fuzzy Rat modeled pushing and expected to be understood. Literally the last thing she did when she was dying was to tap my hand and point back to the cage, I got a last kiss, she waited for my daughter to say good night and she passed away minutes later... 

As to wild rat behavior... we ran across a large pack of wild rats in the bushes in front of the Turtle Back Zoo in West Orange, NJ one evening... my then six year old daughter wanted a new rat so when we saw the first one I let her chase it... rather than run away lots more rats came out and began a chase game. Perhaps it was because we were scent marked by Fuzzy Rat or perhaps it was my daughter's playful chase behavior, but it turned into the exact reverse of what you would expect an immersion to look like. Here was an entire rat pack darting from bush to bush practically jumping on my daughter's feet to engage her playfully... Now I know letting my six year old daughter play with a pack of wild rats isn't likely to win me any father of the year awards... but I was frozen in fascination, well I broke it up when so many rats were engaged that the odds tipped in the favor of my daughter actually snatching one up. I didn't actually intend for her to catch a wild rat and bring it home... nor did I think it would go well if she actually grabbed one.

So to answer your question... I knew all of the textbook rat stuff from college, picked up metacognition on line and then adopted the truly amazing one of a kind Fuzzy Rat quite by accident. The zoo incident was quite a stroke of luck too...

When we went to get Fuzzy Rat a new roommate we literally introduced her to countless rats she didn't like, she picked Amelia to be her roomie by sniffing her then walking right back my arm and giving me a kiss on my cheek, a behavior that meant "yes" or "thank you" and she did her introduction at the tail end of Amelia's human immersion session... it was brilliant. Fuzzy Rat sat on a step for a couple of hours watching and occasionally preening, when the time was right she came down and boxed for about 3 minutes, then she turned sideways and let Amelia tip her over with one paw, Amelia groomed her belly and the introduction was over. This was a procedure Fuzzy Rat repeated over and over with Amelia... Fuzzy Rat would steal Amelia's food, then rather than fight, she would roll onto her back, get groomed and proceed off with Amelia's food. By predicting Amelia's behavior Fuzzy Rat could take advantage of her to her own benefit... Watching Fuzzy Rat with Amelia was like watching a rat with a pet rat. They didn't act anything like the same species.

So, yes, I suppose I studied Fuzzy Rat "scientifically" in order to understand her as I was taught to observe and understand rat behavior in my formal training and I made sure Fuzzy Rat had lots of novel stimuli and experiences, but much of the actual credit for immersion and immersion theory goes to a $2.49 feeder rat pup that grew up to be the most amazing true shoulder rat and one of the smartest, determined and communicative rats anyone has ever seen...

Fuzzy Rat died with hundreds of human friends and acquaintances that even included a motorcycle association she befriended in the course of her travels. She was welcome to dine in several restaurants and popular in just about every store in town. She entertained handicapped children at the town "specials" picnic. And evenings in summer she would lead an entourage of local teenagers on a slow walk around the park, stopping and looking back to make sure she didn't lose any stragglers. Perhaps her greatest legacy was immersion...

I suppose that isn't the story anyone would expect for a breakthrough concept in rat socialization... A psychology major that really never did anything in his field, (I'm a banker by trade) a mismarked feeder rat pup that kept crawling back to my daughter, even though I put it back in the bin three times, that evolved into something quite special and different, a lucky happenstance to meet a pack of "friendly" wild rats in our travels and a cognitive theory of rat behavior based on communication the way a rat can understand the world.. And, oddly not surprising to me, it works faster and better than just about everything that went before with all kinds of rats. 

I've had other rats, including a part wild rat that went native outdoors for five months and another true shoulder rat that is very competent but not nearly as communicative as Fuzzy Rat was, but for the most part my other rats have been "normal". I believe they share the same basic abilities Fuzzy Rat had and even have a few she lacked, and will suggest that rats are more alike than different... but they didn't contribute much to the theory directly. 

I'll let some PhD candidate fill in the details I glossed over in some paper to be published, for now immersion works, and I think I understand the process pretty well. But there you have it... if you are doing immersion, you are doing something taught to humans by rats... that resulted from a long string of very lucky accidents. The right humans, the right rat and rats coming together at the right time... If my daughter picked another rat, of if a snake owner picked Fuzzy Rat first there would be no immersion. 

I hope that answers your questions...


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## ratsaremylife

Rat Daddy, that is very interesting. I was wondering about Dobby (I know, changed the subject) I have been taking her out onto a bed and pet her the whole time with my bare hand. She did not bite or nip at all and was very curious. I am still scared b/c she snatches treats so quick and scarily I just get scared and glad it's not my finger... She lets me pet her back but won't let me go farther than her neck. She also squeaks bloody murder if I try to pick her up. She has to crawl onto me or into a box to put her back. And as a sidenote: Poppy, my sweetheart does small squeaks when I flip her onto her back and tickle her. Also when I 'groom' her. Is that normal? Thanks!


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## Rat Daddy

Charlottesmom...

I understand how you feel... immersion isn't for everyone, but that's up to you... I will however address a few questions...

First you use the term friend... have you thought about how you would define that? Or how a rat might? You have alpha friends that tend to always choose the places you go as a group, you have follower friends that just tag along and you might even have friends with benefits... If you prefer the term friend, and it works in your mind it's fine with me. I like the term parent better than alpha or friend myself. As the human in your rat pack you have to set the limits, teach the necessary social behaviors and commands your rat needs to learn to function in human society and provide security and protection for your rats... I liken this role to parent... not dictator or subordinate. Rats like humans are status oriented, in your vernacular they follow leader friends respecting and learning from them and they beat up or push around follower friends sometimes using biting to communicate their demands... So what kind of a friend are you willing to be? In my household the humans are leader friends. Actually exactly like parents...

As to bonding before getting home... no we don't commonly carry a travel cage on short trips and our rats do free range the car and I don't recommend it to other people. But we train shoulder rats... just about everything we do is dangerous. 
When we meet a new rat, it's usually a pup, but it's always a rather lengthy meeting involving lots of handling. Most recently we adopted Max at two weeks old... we handled her for a while and she was quite relaxed and calm, then we carried her around the store for about an hour while we bought food for the other rats and animals we have and milk formula for her and then we took her to the car and she napped in my daughters hands and lap on the ride home on the back seat.. If a problem came up I could have just pulled over to address it. Max was an adult when we met her in a parking lot and adopted her... she was quite afraid and snuggled into my daughters arms and lap, not moving until we got home. My daughter is an excellent rat handler with an innate second sense to what a rat is about to do. If the rat isn't biting she can manage it as well as I can. We only ever brought our first rat that was part wild home in a box and that's only because the sales girl insisted and I believe she knew that was a "special" rat that needed special handling and we were very inexperienced.

As to getting acclimated to a new home or to a new family? Do humans get acclimated to real estate or people? I mean if you take your family to a new McDonalds do they need to acclimate? Or are your children fine as long as they are with you? We travel a lot with our shoulder rats, as long as they are with us they are fine where ever we go. If we sit down they will start to explore once they feel comfortable with their surroundings that can only take a few minutes. If they don't like where we are they tend to stay on shoulder. Rats don't acclimate to new cages, they acclimate to new families. Take a rat anywhere with it's pack and it's generally more relaxed, plunk a rat somewhere by it self and it's alone and afraid. My first priority is to bond our humans with our rats and then introduce them to their cage.

Max came home and hung out with my daughter being fed from an eyedropper ever couple of hours. When my daughter passed out, I spread a towel in my bed and took her to bed with me, I had to get up every couple of hours anyway so it was no big deal... Max nursed and slept with us for about a week before she ever knew she had a cage... And by that point we generally left it open on my desk and she would use it to potty and hang out with me or my daughter. Max still spends most of her time sleeping or working on her huge expansive secret nest under the furniture... She only goes into the cage when my rat phobic wife is home. Other than that she's house safe and independent. We keep her old baby cage around and open for her to potty in.

Amelia was an adult and we played with her for hours during immersion and Fuzzy Rat joined in and it was all great fun.. The first time Amelia saw her cage, she snuggled up with Fuzzy Rat and the two slept in a ball through the next morning. Amelia isn't much on her cage either, preferring to sleep in the pantry under some clutter in her own secret nest.

The word you are looking for is Stockholm syndrome... And I'm not sure that that's bad... it's a humans natural instinct to bond with those close to him or her. Similar bonds take place in military units and on submarines and in blended families. It's interesting that bonding occurs in otherwise forced situations, but the proximity doesn't require force to happen. Workplace romances are another common manifestation of bonding due to extended proximity.

Now lets think about the immersion area, it should provide your rat some place to run and you some room to avoid getting bit and both of you some room to maneuver. The object of the exercise is to open the channel of communication... In order to communicate you and your rat have to get to know each other. So you initiate contact and your rat reciprocates. Most immersions turn into extended play sessions. Extreme immersions are different, you have to establish a social basis for your friendship first. You are the parent, and your rat is your child... you don't permit biting... never ever and once your rat gets it, it's usually very happy to join your pack and enjoy your protection. 

I've watched Fuzzy Rat do immersion and wild rats do immersion with my daughter. That's the way rats do it. A new wild rat is never allowed to free range around the pack while it does daily meet and greet sessions with the alpha... And in domestic rats your old rats don't wait for your new rat to acclimate to the cage before they pounce on him and then only for 15 minutes a day... NO in rat society status, (in your terms what kind of friendship) is resolved first then the rats can cohabit. 

I dread the words kidnapper or deliminator or dictator, it comes from my use of the word alpha. We like to think of an alpha as pushy and dominant, but that's not the way rats view it. In all the time my daughter played with the wild rats I couldn't pick out the alpha. One rat the looked like every other rat there was leading the play but the other rats were following in the exact same behavior... engage and run away... They were all having great fun. They weren't trying to dominate my daughter or hurt her... just engage her and try to elicit the correct response, which would have been her laying down and getting groomed. And as my daughter's intention was to catch a rat and bring it home, I wasn't about to let that happen. 

So the long session is founded on actual rat behavior, before a pack of rats accepts a newcomer it does immersion and the play or fight continues until it's over and the new rat is welcomed into the pack. It takes longer with humans because let's face it we have to get over the part where we don't look or act like rats and we don't speak rat... It's just got to take longer... but it still can be playful and fun.

Secondly in the days of trust training bad cycles would take place especially with vicious rats... The human would take the rat out of the cage and get bit, the rat would go back to the cage victorious and the next day the cycle would repeat. Every day the rat got more bold and aggressive and the human more reluctant to engage the rat. One of our first extreme immersions involved a human that claimed to have been bitten every day for three months... And posted photos to prove it. One extreme immersion session and by the next morning rat and human were best friends. The human wasn't about to spend the money on a spay and the rat was only days away from getting put down or Craigs listed. 

Lastly to address the two to eight hours immersion might take... way back in the dark ages folks spent weeks or even months bonding or trying to bond with rats... if you read the old threads they would start I've worked with my rat for three weeks, or even three months and people would respond... give it more time. And when people would write that things were getting worse, people would respond try a spay or even a neuter for a female... Over time rats actually build social hierarchies in their cages without humans being part of the mix and the rats were defending their cages from human invaders. Things were getting worse as people were noticing. It had nothing to do with hormonal aggression, it had to do with rats building families that lacked human participation and now they were defending themselves from the very people that wanted to love them.... That's what worse looks like. 

Finally think of your own romantic bonding behavior, do you fall in love on a speed date? Or do you have to get to know someone? Perhaps you might want to share a meal, or a public event, you might want to dance or go on a long weekend before you start a long term relationship... Is two hours too long for a date? Or even eight hours? And you and your date can most likely speak the same language and you are the same species so it should be vastly easier for you to bond... Eight hours is a remarkably fast time to bond for a lifetime with a human or a rat.... Stockhold syndrome involves weeks, months or years, immersion bonding only takes hours. Even in the worst case use of the term there isn't any comparison. Rats are predisposed to join new packs, it's what they want to do, it's what they do in nature and in captivity, and immersion facilitates exactly what your rat wants to do. 

I hope that helps... 

I have a wild Conure since 1989, and birds are different than rats in certain ways and alike in others. My conure won't go for my eyes, but will tweak my ears or punch holes in my shirt when it's annoyed or wants attention. I would call our relationship "friends" too, but we should take this discussion onto another thread as this one is about immersion and already getting forever long.


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## Rat Daddy

Ratsaremylife,

Normal is defined by what is normal for your rat. By no stretch of anyone's imagination was Fuzzy Rat normal. She was hand raised as a pup, allowed to explore oudoors from the age of 4 weeks old, she swam in lakes, climbed trees an was commonly mobbed by huge crowds of kids and adults alike... there was nothing normal about her upbringing and nothing normal about her personality.

I'm assuming you don't know who ignored your rats before you got them or who hurt them and how badly, you don't know how they were treated by their mom or surrogate mom and by larger rats housed with them... When Max was a pup Amelia tried to kill her, actually punching a nasty hole into her side and trying to drag her off... The first time I had Amelia outside at the safe site, many weeks later Max jumped down from a tree branch and bit Amelia then scurried up the tree where Amelia couldn't follow. Amelia still turns up with suspicious bite marks occasionally... And as Amelia gets older Max gets more pushy... If I hadn't witnessed Amelia trying to kill Max, I wouldn't understand the mixed feelings Max has for her. 

So lets assume that you don't know how your rats got the way they are, but lets also assume it's normal for them... Further lets assume that's not the way you want them to stay.... Fair enough so far?

Now a rat learns about being picked up by being picked up... Before your rat got to your home whenever she got picked up something bad happened... she got picked up and taken away from her mom, then picked up and plunked into a cage with lots of nasty big rats, then picked up and stuffed into a box where she almost suffocated and fought in the dark with dozens of strange rats, then she got picked up and dumped into a display cage.... She associated getting picked up with very bad things happening... How do we fix it? She gets picked up by you and nothing bad happens, over and over again until she learns getting picked up is normal and as long as you are doing it, it's safe and good. 

This is about the same for anything you are trying to get your rats to unlearn. 

In my household learning takes place very quickly, my daughter grabs the rats right at the pet shop and starts hugging on them and kissing them and before we are out the store door they have given up squeaking when they get handled... We usually spend quite a while with new rats before we decide to take them home. And once we get the new rats home they get handled for hours if not days before they wind up in their cage... 

Now I sort of get the feeling you are afraid of getting bit... try oven mitts. But to be honest, there's no safe shortcut, if your rat bites you or tries to bite you, you use negative communication to teach it that is an unacceptable behavior, you shout and/or bop or swat, whatever it takes to communicate your message... not punish!... communicate!

Lastly as to being afraid, and yes rats are fast and agile and have very sharp teeth, a Chinese general said it best "When you have fear, you need more courage". It's a really shitty answer, but its the truth. Training rats isn't about how you feel its about what you do, and if you are going to change your rats behavior you just have to push through to replace bad experiences with good ones.

I hope that helps a little.


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## Charlottesmom

Yes it helps, I know now that I'm sticking to my way of doing things. Rats are not Pack animals, you are confusing rats and wolves, rats live in colonies....different from packs indeed. I believe any well socialized pet rat could achieve shoulder status, it is just a friendly, accepting rat, not all rats have the personality for shouldering and if they don't I don't think the matter should be pressed if the rat is not cooperative. I think you had a sweet friendly rat in Fuzzy Rat, but I don't think she was a saint and did have either behavior issues or a foolhardy owner (I'll not go into the details but it involves introducing her to two baby rats that did not turn out very well for the babies....who was at fault there and why did she do that)? I going to make it no secret that I am not enamoured with you methods as your track record is not exactly sterling, nor is the way you seem to do things that others might question. I believe your methods are old school, I stick by my idea that love, respect, and reading body language is the best method (for me). Your method may be fine for you and possibly for severe biters but I believe rats are not mean by nature, some digging into the behavoir of the owner should be looked into also. I just read about a certain rat constantly biting her owners husband's knees, they finally figured out it was because their cat always sat on his lap and near his knees. I'm sure I will be booted from this board for saying all this and I really mean no harm but I do disagree with you methods and some things you have posted about your rats behavior and had to voice it.


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## ratsaremylife

Thanks Rat Daddy! I now just pick her up even if she protests and believe me, she does. But now she also squeaks when pet and seems a lot more scared. I have learned to not be so scared and haven't worn a glove unless she is in her cage where I am more insecure b/c she is more on guard and at home. I have started to carry her around for hours on my shoulder and playing with her on the couch. She sometimes goes nuts if I try to pet her and runs in circles and up and down the room/me/the couch anything.


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## ratsaremylife

Just tried to pick her up and squealed and ran away so I grabbed her she kinda rolled onto her back with her face inches from my hand so I pulled back afraid she would bite. Was this giving in? Or was she trying to bite me? She also raises her butt/back up when she squeaks if I pet her. I'm really confused! HELP! Thanks...


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## jorats

Your immersion is actually called flooding. It's a technique used by trainers to flood the animal in order to render the animal emotionally exhausted. That's actually not a good thing and it's now being frowned upon by many behaviourists and veterinarians. I've been keeping rats since 2002. I've done countless of intros and have had the pleasure to be with over 300 rats. I really think you need to step back and read up on flooding and how that can actually cause an animal to shut down. 
You are very lucky that you had a couple of rats that were phenomenal. In my 300 rats, we've only had a handful like that... the rest were "normal" wonderful pets but not like those who do communicate with us. 
I caution everyone here who do the immersion... It's like alpha rolling a dog. It creates fear, anxiety and a shut down. Shutting down a rat is the fast way of bullying your way with them. It's definitely not the kindest way. I suggest you read up on positive reinforcement, which I do see you mention some aspect of it. Rats are intelligent sentient beings but they are animals.


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## Charlottesmom

ratsaremylife said:


> Just tried to pick her up and squealed and ran away so I grabbed her she kinda rolled onto her back with her face inches from my hand so I pulled back afraid she would bite. Was this giving in? Or was she trying to bite me? She also raises her butt/back up when she squeaks if I pet her. I'm really confused! HELP! Thanks...


Please go to the Trust Training sticky and read it, then go to the 3rd link down in that same post and read it. Immersion is not working and you are scaring the heck out of your rat, do you think grabbing her is earning her trust or making her want to be with you? To her you are the big monster who pulls her out of her happy peaceful home. EARN her trust be loving, offer choice treats, learn her body language, and above all be patient.


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## bazmonkey

Charlottesmom said:


> Immersion is not working and you are scaring the heck out of your rat, do you think grabbing her is earning her trust or making her want to be with you? To her you are the big monster who pulls her out of her happy peaceful home. EARN her trust be loving, offer choice treats, learn her body language, and above all be patient.


I must admit I agree. Notwithstanding the apprehension I have towards this approach to socializing rats altogether, I fear it is often further misunderstood. A 6-8 hour session (would a wild rat _ever_ willingly leave its home for that long???) in a room with little choice but to be exposed could easily cause problems itself if the handler is not aware of the warning signs.

Outside of this forum I have never seen an animal behaviorist (within the last couple decades) recommend anything other than positive reinforcement, gradual training, and sessions of a duration that work with the animal's normal behavior patterns.


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## ratsaremylife

Yes, I thought I may be scaring her but she is getting better. I did read the trust training. Thanks though. My theory is that they accept dominance when they trust you. My Poppy never had immersion and trusts me as alpha and her best friend as well. She waits by the cage door to come out, She gladly accepts being flipped and tickled and chased. She runs away then comes back for more. I haven't read the third link down but will do it now. I am considering a mixture of all. She seems to enjoy being on my shoulder just not being pet.


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## ratsaremylife

Also just wanted to add my idea of immersion is sitting in a room and letting the rat explore you and maybe try to pet it and give it treat, I can't be all up in their face unless it's a trained rat that for some reason enjoys it.


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## Rat Daddy

CM - Yes it helps, I know now that I'm sticking to my way of doing things. 

RD - If it works for you stick with it! There's no arguing with success! And there's no one size fits all solution that works for everyone. 

CM- Rats are not Pack animals, you are confusing rats and wolves, rats live in colonies....different from packs indeed. 

RD - rat packs and wolf packs are very likely different, but we are not talking about wolves, which I know very little about. Rats have a somewhat loose hierarchical social structure, for the purpose of defining rats as opposed to solitary animals pack is good enough for most people to comprehend, maybe I'm just to lazy to type "colonial animals" hundreds of times when most people tend to get what pack animal means.. especially as I have clarified the term to indicate "extended families" more often than I can remember. Going forward to eliminate any confusion, when I say pack I mean rat pack, not wolf pack and pack animal as social animal as opposed to a solitary animal. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear that up.

CM - I believe any well socialized pet rat could achieve shoulder status, it is just a friendly, accepting rat, not all rats have the personality for shouldering and if they don't I don't think the matter should be pressed if the rat is not cooperative. 

RD - I tend to disagree... not many rats should go outdoors or appear at public events, or have the emotional skills to be true shoulder rats. For the most part taking a rat outdoors is a great way of getting them killed! Shoulder rats are born with a very special personality and they need to be carefully and patiently trained for their rolls by experienced handlers. A good shoulder rat will sometimes be apprehensive and sometimes will be in frightening situations, but overall they enjoy incredible lives. As true shoulder rats experience more novel experiences they get accustomed to them and evolve. I'm not sure what you mean about "pressed" but it sounds gawd awful so whatever it is I wouldn't do it.

CM - I think you had a sweet friendly rat in Fuzzy Rat, but I don't think she was a saint and did have either behavior issues or a foolhardy owner 

RD - LOL... BOTH!!! If she got neglected she would slice all of the wires in the house including the phone wire I was talking on or the headphone wires I was listening to... She was a flaming prima donna and she could be stubborn like a mule! And yes, when we learned shoulder ratting we took too many risks in retrospect... It's amazing she managed to keep herself from getting killed countless times... sometimes it was more luck than anything else and yes we learned and evolved our craft from lots of near misses. Most of which I share freely with people under the heading 'things not to do.' or "things we do because we know how to keep them from going terribly wrong and stuff you should never try at home" Shoulder ratting is risk management not risk avoidance. Things can and do go wrong... the object of the exercise is to give and amazing rat a spectacular life without taking insane risks. Fuzzy rat died, sick and debilitated in her cage at 2 1/2 years old. No one that knew her would have predicted that would be how her life would end. Still, no regrets, she was born to be a true shoulder rat and that's the way she lived her life.

CM (I'll not go into the details but it involves introducing her to two baby rats that did not turn out very well for the babies....who was at fault there and why did she do that)? 

RD - Actually Fuzzy Rat only terrorized one baby rat and we learned from that mistake. She never drew blood but the baby was changed for life in my opinion. Amelia attacked Max when she was a pup, but Amelia typically free ranges the house and no one had seen her for at least a day when she snuck up onto my desk and went after Max and tried to kill her and drag her off when I wasn't looking. Amelia wound up spending most of the next several weeks trapped in her cage until Max was old enough to be introduced. Amelia was going through a lot of emotional issues with the death of Fuzzy Rat and I didn't want to cage her for a couple of months while we raised Max, she seemed happiest in her secret nest in the pantry keeping to herself and only coming out for potty, food drink and occasional skritches.. Amelia already had a pretty good size tumor and hadn't been on my desk in months... and yes... no excuses... I own this screw up. I've posted on numerous threads that even the best behaved non-nursing female rats should never be introduced to pups. And that is how I know what I know.

CM - I going to make it no secret that I am not enamoured with you methods as your track record is not exactly sterling, nor is the way you seem to do things that others might question. 

RD - Great point! Everyone should question my methods before trying them for themselves. When it comes to shoulder rats... only a very few people should try any of them for themselves regardless of our success. I'm willing to help experienced rat owners who are themselves willing to take the risks with their very special rats and based on our experience we may hopefully prevent some rats from getting killed... but that has nothing to do with immersion. Still, people should question immersion before trying it, check out the threads and successful on line immersions get input from other people with immersed rats. Question everything! 

CM - I believe your methods are old school, 

RD - Really? A rat socialization strategy based on inter-species communication and understanding? I went to the old school and they would have tossed me out for even suggesting the idea back in the old school...

CM - I stick by my idea that love, respect, and reading body language is the best method (for me). 

RD - Amen. On this we agree completely.

CM - Your method may be fine for you and possibly for severe biters

RD - Extreme Immersions are very special cases! Most people never have to go through one. They involve people doing extraordinarily dangerous things and taking big risks. They are not fun for the rat or human involved and involve drastic measures that should never be repeated elsewhere in rat training. Frankly, sometimes I wish I never touched on the subject... but as you remarked they do fix screwed up biting rat. Actually we've had lots of successful extreme immersions. Extreme immersions and the extreme tactics used are hard to explain and they can reflect poorly on immersion theory as a whole... but they save rats lives. We have saved rats lives and that's why it stays as part of the mix.

CM - but I believe rats are not mean by nature, 

RD - Agreed rats are not mean by nature... they are metacognative, intelligent and emotional beings.. not mean at all.

CM - some digging into the behavoir of the owner should be looked into also.

RD - Again amen. Most rats have been screwed up by humans. Most of the time it was at the rat farm or the pet shop or with a former owner, but some current owners screw up too and either neglect of inadvertently confuse their rats. Sometimes helping the rats involves re-educating an owner, sometimes we've been successful, other times there are things we can't fix on line when the humans are the problem.

CM - I just read about a certain rat constantly biting her owners husband's knees, they finally figured out it was because their cat always sat on his lap and near his knees. 

RD - I usually try and ask for more information when I respond to a post.... and I can often read things between the sentences that absolutely don't sound right and try to figure out the appropriate cause. But honestly, I've never met a rat that would bite their owner that they know because they smell like another animal... Still if the rat is jealous, perhaps biting still isn't an acceptable behavior and might be addressed and corrected. If the rat can't tell the difference between it's owner and a cat I'm guessing there are other problems the poster isn't telling us about? 

CM - I'm sure I will be booted from this board for saying all this and I really mean no harm but I do disagree with your methods and some things you have posted about your rats behavior and had to voice it.

RD - I sure hope not! I love challenging things! Immersion is the result of challenging the status quo. Nothing should ever be too well established or too holy to challenge. Some day immersion will be improved or even replaced by something better... but it won't evolve if it isn't challenged. Ideas can't be refined in a vacuum. I've very much enjoyed our dialogue, and I accept that we may not agree on some things. But if you have happy rats and you love them then you should keep doing what you are doing. There's no single point in the universe that has only one way to get to.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Rat Daddy

Jorats,

Thank you for your comments regarding flooding and alpha rolling. I'm not sure that after reading your analysis of them that I am going to go out of my way to study how they have been tested on rats. If you get a chance PM me some links and I'll try to look them up and comment to you privately as I find the time...

Immersion is a vastly successful method of building a framework of communication and bonding between humans and rats. Most successful rat owners have used some elements of immersion incorporated in their own methods since Jack Black. As you recognized immersions strong reliance on positive communication which is similar to the more primitive positive reinforcement models of the somewhat archaic operand conditioning methods already losing popularity when I was in school. But similar approaches are not the same just like everything with a tail is not a rat. In immersion we specifically engage our rats to communicate and engage in physical play with us in order to build understanding between two species. It is based on a thoroughly modern model of a rat as a metacognative, thinking and emotional being.

Those of us who have used immersion and helped others fix their problem rats are very proud of the new and advanced methods we present here. We are proud of the rats we have saved. Immersed rats are often happier, more outgoing, more independent and better bonded to their families than most rats that did not benefit from immersion. 

I'm not sure I can find a specific question to answer in your comment other than you may have immersion confused with something entirely else... I have to assume that since immersion works and the other methods you mentioned don't, they must be different on that basis alone.


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## bazmonkey

Rat Daddy said:


> Thank you for your comments regarding flooding and alpha rolling. I'm not sure that after reading your analysis of them that I am going to go out of my way to study how they have been tested on rats.


I would be very interested if you did, because after reading many of your posts and also about flooding I truly strain to see what the difference is (other than the successes you mentioned). If I understand correctly, the core idea behind flooding was to expose the animal to something it does not like (such as human interaction in a rat's case) but that it *should* like or tolerate. E.g. force a dog that does not like grooming to be combed repeatedly, or put a rat in a place it can't avoid human interaction for a long period of time. Eventually the body simply can't keep up a state of stress response (this sounds like "a rat can't stay scared more than 15-20 minutes"), and the animal stops reacting to the stimulii (this sounds like an immersed rat that stops responding aggressively to people).

What are the fundamental differences to your approach? I understand it's rationale is from regarding rats as metacognitive beings and inter-species communication, but in practice, how is an immersion session not a form of flooding therapy? Besides my own curiosity, knowing the difference could be of great importance to a new pet owner seeking to implement this technique.


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## Rat Daddy

ratsaremylife, 

You sound like you are doing fine, rats usually don't roll over on their backs to bite you. Whenever my rats roll onto their backs they want their bellies rubbed. Sure some people take this as submission, but mostly it's I want a reward, maybe it's both. There's no conflict in a single behavior having two similar meanings.

As to the running around like nuts... all young rats do it. As do many puppy dogs. When I trained my puppies they would often tear around in circles to burn off excess energy, and young rats do it too. Max still does it and she is about 4 months old. We'll lay in the king size bed with her and she'll run for cover then pop up on the bed and run all over us and under the sheets and then up on us again... she's just having fun and blowing off steam.

Some of my rats have raised their butts because they want them skritched... My part wild rat would raise her butt and when I'd skritch it her ears would vibrate.... it was really very funny.

Why do rats squeak? When we got Amelia she squeaked over everything... she even meowed and barked and growled... she had been raised in a house with almost no human interaction but with 17 kinds of other animals.... For better or worse she quieted down over time she only squeaks occasionally when Max pushes her around.

I'm not sure what your rats squeaks mean... maybe she is frightened and maybe your apprehensive and misinterpreting her squeaks as fear... but whether it's fear or not the way we all overcome fear is to challenge it. A person who is afraid of ladders doesn't overcome their fear by staying on the ground.... I've stayed on the ground for 40 years and I'm still scared of ladders. In my life I only ever got the courage to climb one 200 year old wooden ladder repeatedly in a certain barn. The farmer convinced me that his great grandfather built the ladder and that if it lasted 200 years it wasn't going to collapse on me... Well two months after I left the farm it collapsed on him and he nearly died... I haven't been up on a tall ladder since... But even my very limited trust of one ladder was based on my forcing my way up the first time while a the farmer ridiculed me from the ground.

Whenever we approach a large group of people Max still burrows under my coat, 15 minutes later she's usually walking hand to hand on other people. At a distance bright lights circus rides and crowds still tend to frighten her, but once she is surrounded by people up close and personal she flowers and has a ball. But we have to get through the approach to get to the meet and greet.

When Fuzzy Rat saw a crowd of people she would anxiously push forward towards them. She just had a different personality... 

Are you working in an immersion area? Did you take your girls through immersion? Or are you doing socialization add hoc?

There is a particular danger in working ad hoc.... Rats are very clever, when they squeak you put them down, so they squeak when they don't want to be picked up or when they want to be put down and they teach you to put them down when they squeak. Eventually it's not necessarily fear they are expressing it's just their way of telling you to do something. 

My human daughter is also very clever... one day she felt poorly and she had a very very minor fever and my wife was off for the week and my wife kept my daughter home from school, the next day the same thing happened without the very minor fever and believe it or not the same thing happened on Friday. Over the weekend my daughter felt fine but guess what happened Monday morning? Yup. She wasn't feeling well again, so I told her if she felt worse she should go to the nurse and I'd pick her up... she didn't like the idea but the mystery illness never returned except when my wife was home from work... All in all we hit 9 unexcused sick days when 10 warrants a visit from child protective services. Kids learn and rats learn...

( I just set the rats free to free range for the night and my wife stashed a bag of candy bars under her desk... I just separated the rats from most of the candy, but they are going to be on a sugar high until sunrise...)

In the immersion area you pretty much push through the objection to being picked up as you interact in different ways.

Now there's been some debate about scaring or stressing your rats during training. There's actually no debate that it happens... just what to do about it. I work with very independent rats, they disappear for hours if not whole days at a time which is fine by me, they don't do any damage and potty where they are supposed to and I have peace.... But when I do handle them, they don't bite or fight or make a fuss. Outdoors my shoulder rats come when called... it's life or death. (distracted again, sugar high rats are doing a rat train around the house knocking stuff over hiding my papers and jumping all over me for more milky ways...) 

Now aside from the obvious way my rats are currently abusing me, I'm (at least suppose to be) in charge. I just snatched Max from where I tipped my ashtray and no she didn't stop eating whatever disgusting thing she found among the ashes, but she didn't bite or resist me snatching her up. She just sat on my hand stuffing something black and disgusting into her mouth and resisting my efforts to take it away from her....

Getting picked up, getting carried around and being handled is just part of being a rat in my household, building and sleeping in secret nests and stealing candy bars is another fact of life around my home. (and now the familiar sound of Max tunneling through the kitchen trash for left overs... there are some sweet potato skins in there from yesterday.. generally ok for her to eat, so she'll leave them alone) 

Yes, I know some times I come off as a hard arse, because I train my rats pretty thoroughly, but it's all to let them be more independent. Our shoulder rats go crazy outdoors and all of our rats have a blast indoors, they have more freedom than just about every one else's rats, but that's because they are well trained and solidly bonded to their family.

You aren't picking on your girl to make her unhappy. Your not trying to bully your rat, or torture your rat or stress your rat, you are trying to show her nothing bad happens when you pick her up. You want your rat to experience more life outside the cage, and to get to know you. 

The more you handle your rats the more they will get used to you and the more you will learn to trust them... it's OK if they protest they will eventually get used to the facts of life in your household.

(Jeese... My daughter stashed a bag full of tootsie rolls and lolly pops somewhere on the floor and the Amelia found it... I think I rescued most of that too... sugar high until next week now! The rats are in a frenzy... Max is on the dishwasher eating a raw sweet potato and Amelia is foraging for more goodies under the furniture... It's a ratastrophy and I've got to go soon to join in, the rats are having way too much fun without me.)

And lastly life doesn't end with socialization! Rats get over stress pretty quickly as do humans. So they may stress out about being picked up for a while but after they get used to it they don't hold a grudge... rather they look forward to their trips to their play area, or in my case their rides to the park. We are all apprehensive when we do something that didn't work out before or something we haven't tried but once we do it often enough we get good at it and even look forward to the things we once dreaded...

Don't get discouraged and don't let your rats train you otherwise.... your rats need to lean to be handled before they can really live with you and you have to work through it with them.


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## Rat Daddy

bazmonkey,

To address both your posts...

BM - I must admit I agree. Notwithstanding the apprehension I have towards this approach to socializing rats altogether, I fear it is often further misunderstood. A 6-8 hour session (would a wild rat _everwillingly leave its home for that long???) in a room with little choice but to be exposed could easily cause problems itself if the handler is not aware of the warning signs.

RD - I honestly don't see that 6 to 8 hours is a long time. We do plenty of day trips with our rats and they are with us all day... When we went to the mountains with Fuzzy Rat she rode in the car for two hours went on a boat ride perhaps, took a walk in the woods with us swam at the beach and hung out for the party into the little hours of the morning... At one party all of the humans had passed out and Fuzzy Rat was licking spilled beer from the floor and grooming a curly haired fellow passed out on the couch... The next day we slept in a little, picked the larval ticks off her as she nursed her hangover and we all went back to the beach, then when that beach closed we went to another... She was on the road with us for 4 days and two fireworks shows... on weekends we often let our rats free range and play with them off an on all day... What's so special about 6 to 8 hours? Our rat do 16 hour days with us? How is that even an issue? When Fuzzy Rat got older, she would fall asleep in the car or on the bench next to me or even in the grass in the sunshine... then she would wake up and go on again. Rats and their owners do many various activities in immersion which includes playing skritching, grooming and even napping together. Many immersions go more quickly and some take longer... but how long did previous methods take???? How many biting rats were trust trained or forced socialized in 6 hours? 

BM - Outside of this forum I have never seen an animal behaviorist (within the last couple decades) recommend anything other than positive reinforcement, gradual training, and sessions of a duration that work with the animal's normal behavior patterns.

RD - Likely that's correct, most rat sites are still flogging outdated methods that haven't worked well for years, if ever... Trust train... forced socialize and neuter... "Positive reinforcement" was part of behavioral modification and operand conditioning from the 1960s as was negative reinforcement and aversion therapy and electrical shocks and gentile stimulation to treat homosexuality... I was there for that nightmare. It's time to toss the bathwater out, now that the baby had grown up and died of old age. Positive reinforcement isn't even being used correctly half the time and it never was a training method, it was only one of several relegated methods that sometime actually did work in modifying behavior quickly on a short term basis. It never made anyone love anyone else or build relationships operand conditioning assumed that humans are rats were simple stimulus response models that could have their behavior modified by associating rewards or punishment with certain behaviors... If positive reinforcement worked we would all marry vending machines. And by the way studies proved that dogs preferred to be with humans that played with them rather than humans the fed them. That research was also around back then although the rat runners of the day greatly ignored it. Positive communication is all part an parcel of immersion some folks like to give their rats treats during immersion other folks like myself prefer skritches and hugs and we don't wait for our rat to do anything to get their rewards... We always try to communicate our good intentions. Positive reinforcement requires rats to do something positive to reinforce... why wait, why not just communicate positively right from the start... I give my rats a skritch or a hug because I love them and treats for the same reason... my rats don't associate treats or affection with any kind of behavior at all. My rats associate positive communication, compliments, and play and hugs and skritches and treats with me just being there.. They don't have to do anything to earn my love. If you want to argue operand conditioning you have to buy the whole package, not pick the nicer sounding buzzwords. 

And gradual training??? Exactly what does that nifty phrase mean? Are you supposed to try to train a rat that has no bond to you? Perhaps if you try to teach it it's name it will let go of your finger? In immersion communication and bonding comes first... first you build a communication bond based on love and trust then you start training. Perhaps.. operand conditioning did work with training, negative and positive reinforcement did get rats to perform certain behaviors more often... and it works on humans too If I give you $1000.00 every time you clap your hands you will clap until your hands bleed... and if I shock your private areas with 1000 volts you will spend less time on the electrified toilet. 

Gradual training as a bonding method is obsolete, it was the basis for the most tragic failures in rat socialization ever. And specifically this is the way it went... A person took a rat that had never bonded to a human out of the cage and it bit them (out of fear or unfamiliarity) so they put it back and got bandaged up, every day they repeated the same procedure and every day the rat bit them, eventually the rat learned it didn't even have to wait to be picked up, it bit them as soon as they put their hand into the cage... And while people were futzing around with gradual whatever the rats in the cage developed a social hierarchy without human involvement and the rats actually stopped being afraid and started defending their pack, or rat extended family social structure from the humans they now saw as invaders... Until at least one rat went alpha without any human guidance started overproducing hormones and started tearing up its roommates. Most of the first extreme immersions we did were with rats that were gradually trained to attack their humans and tear up their roommates.

As to normal behavior patterns.. immersion is based on the animals normal behavior patterns moreso than any other approach. Rats meet they introduce each other no matter how long it takes and they bond. It's not about positively rewarding each other's good behavior although it usually ends with a positive communication of welcome to the new rat by belly grooming and it certainly isn't a gradual process.. rats don't bond over days weeks or months, it's pretty much a one shot deal and often they can do it in way under 6 to 8 hours.

_BM - I would be very interested if you did, because after reading many of your posts and also about flooding I truly strain to see what the difference is (other than the successes you mentioned). If I understand correctly, the core idea behind flooding was to expose the animal to something it does not like (such as human interaction in a rat's case) but that it *should* like or tolerate. E.g. force a dog that does not like grooming to be combed repeatedly, or put a rat in a place it can't avoid human interaction for a long period of time. Eventually the body simply can't keep up a state of stress response (this sounds like "a rat can't stay scared more than 15-20 minutes"), and the animal stops reacting to the stimulii (this sounds like an immersed rat that stops responding aggressively to people).

The process you describe sound somewhat familiar to forced socialization... not immersion. In immersion a rat is free to respond any way it wants it's not being forced to respond in a certain way. The rat can run away, or it can ignore you or it can explore you or it might even attack you. To each response the human makes the appropriate reply much like a human date. If the rat runs away in fear the human responds with soothing touch and vocalizations and with treats and reassuring gestures. No reason to wait for positive behavior to reward it's all about positive communication right from the start as the rat becomes more familiar and comfortable with the human and responds with a gesture of friendship too. If a rat is indifferent it most likely doesn't realize that humans are even capable of communications... usually all the human has to do is keep engaging, or basically saying hello until the rat realizes the human is taking to her.

Immersions are usually a playful process of engage, elicit a response from the rat and reply appropriately. The last immersion I did involved myself and my daughter laying on the floor with our new rat while she ran around us and all over us an climbed on us and my daughter chased her around and she chased my daughter up and down the stairs and then Fuzzy Rat joined in and got her immersion out of the way in about 15 minutes and the rats chased each other around for about an hour and then my daughter fell asleep on the floor while the rats climbed all over her and after about 6 hours of everyone having great fun I put the rats in their cage together, which was the very first time our new rat ever saw her cage and they fell asleep in a ball... NO there was no rat doing anything it didn't want to do. And no rat was forced in fact the rats tired my daughter out and she collapsed while the rats were still going strong. Where does the entire concept of immersion requiring force come from? And I've never met a rat that didn't want to bond with it's new family... Most rats the arrive at a new home are alone and afraid, they want a friend and a protector and are more than eager to meet and communicate with their new family members. 

Then there are extreme immersions... these are ugly, they start out confrontational and involve great risk to the humans doing them... They often build to a horrific climax and then they usually they taper into normal happy and friendly immersions... They work and they work fast and that's the very best that can be said of them... Rats and humans that survive the process (and so far we haven't lost one of either) tend to build great bonds where the rat becomes a heart rat afterwards, but that in part because rats that have gone antisocial before usually get more attention and love so that their humans never have to go through the nightmare again. The extreme part of immersion involves negative communication, and things that should never ever be done again or elsewhere... I would be just as thrilled if no one ever does another one, but many really screwed up rats have been saved so the practice will be continued by brave humans determined to save their rats.

BM - What are the fundamental differences to your approach? I understand it's rationale is from regarding rats as metacognitive beings and inter-species communication, but in practice, how is an immersion session not a form of flooding therapy? 

RD - Immersion does not require force or conflict, it can take as long as it takes and just about everything a human does is in response to what the rat does. A successful immersion session can amount to a rat climbing up on it's human and sleeping on her for a few hours while being stroked... or a little playful hand wrestling.. it might involve a rat being surprised and squeaking and jumping off when it is picked up the first few times, and if the rat has been damaged by abuse it might involve great patience by the handler... If a rat has a specific phobia, that might not get addressed in immersion and left for training later... The purpose of immersion isn't training it's bonding! Training comes later. 

BM - Besides my own curiosity, knowing the difference could be of great importance to a new pet owner seeking to implement this technique.

RD - The difference is in the way an immersion handler views his or her rat. When you go into the session your objective is to communicate not force... You are not trying to change your rats behavior, you are trying to get your rat to see you as a friend or better yet a parent. Once your rat recognizes you as it's parent it's behavior will change on it's own. Rats naturally bond with humans they love and respect... and yes I used the word respect and humans bond better to rats they respect...

My highly trained shoulder rat and her accomplice Fuzzy Rat's pet rat just destroyed my kitchen... they found a bag of chocolates and in a sugar induced frenzy knocked the plants from the windowsills. Attacked a couple of innocent sweet potatoes on the dishwasher, dumpster dove the kitchen trash and wreaked general havoc... when I went out to see what they were doing they actually solicited me to join in their madness climbing up on me and following me around and trying to get me to toss them more candy... They aren't afraid of me, they aren't shut down and they have never been bullied. When I put Fuzzy Rat or Max on the ground outside they may go and explore but they stay near me and come back to me... They don't hang out with me because they are afraid, they might be afraid of something else in their environment but certainly not me. Immersed rats are bright eyed, and spirited and excited to see their humans and they love to cuddle and they stick their heads into your mouth and they steal your stuff... Take a few minutes and read the threads of the rats and humans we've helped... Check out the posts on this thread from people that actually tried immersion... I don't think you will find a single zombie rat among rats that have been immersed.

I appreciate your questions; no theory, philosophy or practice can survive if it is unchallenged.... understanding needs to evolve. And there's no reason why you or someone like you might not find a way to improve on what we've done so far...


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## jorats

Rat Daddy, you've been keeping rats for a couple of years and have had maybe a dozen rats? If that in your care? How can you now consider yourself an expert with rats? Honestly... you need more experience. 
You actually believe that a rat will go around cutting wires because they are upset? A rat or any pet will do that only if they are bored and left on their own. And not because they want to teach you a lesson, they are simply curious and wires are nice and soft and easy to chew. Rats are intelligent but do not communicate like we do. 
When you allowed your 5 year old daughter to frolic in a colony of wild rats, first...wow. Second, those rats must have been tamed to begin with or they were pet rats let loose and started their own colony. Rats do not do immersion. I've had hundreds of rats and have them living in colonies as big as 21. When a new person comes in, only the curious will go and visit with that new person. They do not take their turn in sequence of their hierarchy to meet that person. That has NEVER happened with my groups. 
Positive reinforcement is out dated? Wow wow wow. That should be the only training method with all animals. Neutering is out dated? Have you ever cared for males? Have you only had females in your groups? Males and females are very different in how they behave. All rats are not one size fits all. Just because you had great experience with your handful of rats in the very few years you've been keeping rats doesn't mean this is the only way to handle things.


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## jorats

I have tried to find links on immersion and it's almost like it doesn't exist. I wish I knew exactly where this guy gets his information. 
Having out time for 6 hours a day sounds like what any rat parent would do when they have that much time on their hands. It sounds like normal out time, so that's always a good thing. There are so good points but being in the stressed out rats face constantly for hours is not a good idea, not for any animal. It can cause loads of anxiety and stress... and it's been scientifically proven that stressed out rats live a very short life. But I believe that some aspects is pretty much like forced socializing with a nifty new name. I don't know if I would do it to the point where the rat shuts down. That would be scary, I've seen rats give up and it's not good. They become sick quite quickly. 
People seem to follow you Rat Daddy for what reason I have no idea, you have neither the experience or credentials to back up your methods. I really hope the people here do more research before putting their rat's lives in your cyber hands.


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## jorats

I should mention, that 6 hours should include access to the cage. All rats feel more secure if they have access to their homes, their food, their water.


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## Charlottesmom

Jorats: EXACTLY on all points, people seem to blindly follow this guy and he only has experience with a few rats (not even well behaved rats if you ask me, one attacked a few baby rats, though I think that was mainly Owner stupidity), one chews wires because she is "neglected" um, try she is not being supervised...and on and on. I hate to say it but unless he can prove his "theories" with a hundred rats and have no negative after effects long term I will just consider him a fly by night cyber quack. Just because he can bully his few rats into good behavior (and they were probably already well behaved rats before he immersed them) I see no reason to dismiss tried and true trust training for some domineering training. I had my 19 year old son read some of the thread on immersion and he was shocked, he couldn't believe what was suggested. It was mentioned elsewhere that it sounds like RD saw a couple of that dog whisperer dude's shows (UGH!!) and ran with the concept, even though dogs and rats do not have the same social makeup. Cesar is very hard for me to watch, but some folks have had great results with his methods, I have an easy slug of a dog so I have never had to do much of anything training wise with her except 6 months of obedience, she did great due to her teachers methods (not domineering) and Charlotte's personality. If you have easy animals domineering is not needed or necessary, I'm just afraid that forced socializing is doing damage down the road, for animals that were placid to begin with but eager new rat owners read the thread on immersion, thought that was the way to go and decided to follow it and any trust that would have developed in time was smashed due to forcing and fast fast fast...WHY do you need to speed trust train? Building up trust slowly is a kinder gentler way, give the animal some choice in the matter. To put it in human terms, you adopt a ten year old, you bring him home do you A. Show him is room talk to him for awhile and let him decide how he wants to proceed, or do you B. bring him home, lock him in a bathroom with you and basically keep repeating "like me like me like me!!" I forsee rebelling in choice B. In terms of rats, let the rat have a choice in how the relationship will go. I will repeat it again, Rats do NOT bite just to be mean, there IS a reason somewhere, you the owner just have to dig and find it. Severe biters might actually need a trip to the vet to take care of hormonal issues (spay, neuter) or they may have internal injuries, tooth problems...really any number of issues. They seriously may just want to be left alone! Dragging an animal out of his home is begging for a nip. My parrot knows the command "up" and she steps on my finger to come out of her cage, if her pupils get tiny I know she doesn't want to come out at that point and I don't press the issue, if I grabbed her I would get nailed, and believe me an African Grey nip is a heck of a wake up call. At any rate, we will obviously never agree on most of this so I'll leave it at that. I'm kind of sick of even discussing it.


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## Charlottesmom

Off Topic: RD, I just reread you post above and had to laugh about you daughter being sick, sound like she has YOU trained ! My kids know that only a fever or barfing up a lung are resons to stay home (I do give them 2 "free days" per year to stay home and do whatever they like when they are not sick). Your daughter smarty that she seems to be, learned that mom and dad can be suckered into letting her stay home even if she fakes illness. You will learn as your kids get older, they will try to get away with whatever they can! With kids you do need to toughen up, be their friend but be their parent first and foremost. My mom always said "if you kids don't hate you at times you are not doing your job as a parent".


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## Charlottesmom

jorats said:


> I should mention, that 6 hours should include access to the cage. All rats feel more secure if they have access to their homes, their food, their water.


You know immersion WITH the cage in the room and acess to it wouldn't be half as bad IMO. I still wouldn't do 6 hours of though, and do truely believe the slow steady trust training method is superior.


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## Rat Daddy

JR - Rat Daddy, you've been keeping rats for a couple of years and have had maybe a dozen rats? If that in your care? How can you now consider yourself an expert with rats? Honestly... you need more experience. 

RD - The first immersion worked as I predicted it, as did the first extreme immersion and so have the many many that have followed... the proof is in the pudding.

JR - You actually believe that a rat will go around cutting wires because they are upset? A rat or any pet will do that only if they are bored and left on their own. And not because they want to teach you a lesson, they are simply curious and wires are nice and soft and easy to chew. Rats are intelligent but do not communicate like we do. 

RD - Honestly, I've seen more complex behaviors than wire cutting. With even more convoluted motivations... I was a psychology major, and I'm trained to be skeptical and test my theories some things I can "believe" and other's I can prove. Rats do communicate with us... we can debate to what level... and whether it's exactly like we do... but Max our current shoulder rat ran up to me and circled me, and then lead me down the hall, I followed her to her cage and she jumped up against the cage stand... I reached down and she jumped up on my hand.... I lifted her to her cage.... she jumped in grabbed something she wanted from her cage and jumped back on my hand, I put her down and she ran off to her secret nest to stash her prize... In what world wasn't that communication? I'm pretty sure if I were about 6 inches long and couldn't talk that's about the way I would tell you I wanted to get into my cage... Sure that's easier to believe than when Fuzzy Rat cut my computer cables when I was typing, my phone line when I was talking and my headphone wires when I was listening... it could be a coincidence... and I'm sure she also cut other wires simply because she was bored. Scientifically perhaps she could somehow sense the voltage going through the particular wires I was using... From actually being here and having it happen to me, I'm going with a more complex motivation... when I was soldering my headphone wires back together she came up on my desk and snipped off the plug and ran off with it... that could have been coincidence too... What I "tend to believe" based on everything else I experienced with her and what might be another "more reasonable" explanation can differ without backing off the point that rats can communicate with is. But when I assemble the entire experiences of her life, there are more than a few examples of rather advanced thought than basic stimulus-response behavior.

JR - When you allowed your 5 year old daughter to frolic in a colony of wild rats, first...wow. Second, those rats must have been tamed to begin with or they were pet rats let loose and started their own colony. Rats do not do immersion. I've had hundreds of rats and have them living in colonies as big as 21. When a new person comes in, only the curious will go and visit with that new person. They do not take their turn in sequence of their hierarchy to meet that person. That has NEVER happened with my groups. 

RD - Yes... that one isn't going to win me father of the year! But in my defense when I let my daughter chase off into the bushes after a wild rat I was pretty sure she wasn't going to catch it... Rat expert or not... kids can't catch wild rats in bushes. These rats were living in front of and most likely into a zoo surrounded by a nature preserve... they most likely have some experience with people, but none had markings that might indicate they were ever domestic. Secondly I couldn't tell one from another and I didn't see any one rat that was "leading" the others but the behavior was anything but random. Now if my daughter laid down and the rats groomed her belly, that would have conclusively proved my point, but I'm not that bad of a father. Why did the rats try to immerse my daughter? I'm assuming they didn't commonly play with children visiting the zoo, so it might have been that she smelled like our rat... or perhaps because she was a small child and they felt less threatened, or the way she engaged them. I was nearby and no rats ran up to me... But I have very definitely seen similar behavior when introducing new rats to old... both the tap and run and the playful chasing. Rat on rat introductions also usually include "boxing" which I didn't see but I don't know how that would have worked even if the rats wanted to do it.

JR - Positive reinforcement is out dated? Wow wow wow. That should be the only training method with all animals. 

RD - yes... the term positive reinforcement comes part and parcel with negative reinforcement, behavior modification and operand conditioning all wrapped neatly in the BF Skinner box... And it did work to modify simple behaviors and having been there back then, positive reinforcement usually didn't work any better than negative reinforcement... Rats could usually be taught to jump higher and faster and more often with electro-shock than treats. And the adversely modified behaviors generally persisted as long or longer as those rewarded... Experimental rats were destroyed by law in many states so no one paid much attention to the long term emotional consequences of the experiments one way or the other... Maybe, and just maybe behavior modification might still be useful to teach rats tricks... and positive reinforcement is less morally reprehensible than it's counterpart, but that's not socialization... If humans really responded emotionally to behavior mod we would all marry vending machines.

In terms of modern immersion techniques positive communication shouldn't be dependent on rewarding any specific behavior... in building a relationship from scratch why are we waiting for a rat to do something to reinforce? The baseline during immersion should always be positive communication... 

(Extreme immersions are stand alone different from all others, some of the trainers communication might need to more negative than positive to discourage biting whereas more positive than negative communication could be used to create the trainers parental status)

JR - Neutering is out dated? Have you ever cared for males? Have you only had females in your groups? Males and females are very different in how they behave. All rats are not one size fits all. Just because you had great experience with your handful of rats in the very few years you've been keeping rats doesn't mean this is the only way to handle things.

RD - Simply neutering any rat because its aggressive and you have no other options is outdated... Immersion is an option and many if not most of the successful extreme immersions were done with males. Neglected or mistreated normal rats can develop social status issues which can confuse them into thinking that they are alphas and that can bring about the over production of hormones... studies done even in my time showed that when an alpha rat was dethroned his hormonal levels usually returned to normal as did his behavior. Therefore a normal rat that is suffering from an over production of hormones due to environmental and social circumstances can be helped through immersion. Rats that are suffering from physical abnormalities or mental disorders that are causing their hormonal imbalance should not be improved through immersion. And there will be aggressive rats that won't be fixed by either immersion or neutering due to extreme trauma or physical illness. 

Lastly... it's not one size fits all... there are several methods that work on certain rats... and there are certain people that have worked out wonderful personal and proprietary methods for socializing all kinds of rats. There are multiple methods to pick from and plenty you can invent by mixing and matching... Positive communication vs positive reinforcement both may still have their place depending on whether you are socializing a rat or teaching a trick... I think we both tend to discourage both the reciprocal negatives. 

So why should anyone choose immersion? Well it works fast... 2 to 8 hours to socialize a rat and create the foundation for a loving relationship, while not being magic, is a pretty good deal... The extreme option for certain people to save a rat that otherwise cant be saved, while I don't even recommend it... has proven it's worth over and over. And the fact that non rat experts seem to do well with immersion goes to it's credit... most successful immersions are still being done by first timers and people new to rats... And lastly people who have done immersion with their rats report that they have great and loving relationships with them afterwards, most move on to name training and trick training and some even become true shoulder rats. 

Jorats, you have had 300 rats... you have a technique that works for you. And I'll bet I won't find exactly what you do anywhere on the internet either. And I'll bet you can fix most of the rats I can and some immersion can't. And we will both fail with some. And some day someone is going to come up with something even better... perhaps something in pill form. I don't expect behavioral modification to ever go away, nor do I foresee trust training going away any time soon and 20 years after we are both long dust someone is still going to be using something akin to forced socialization. You have a method or methods that work for you and you aren't going to change. And I would never expect you to. And even if I feel immersion is better than other methods and other people agree with me, (and some people won't) lets leave it at: There are multiple methods and people will choose the flavor that suits them.


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## nanashi7

My very first post on this site was apprehension on what to do, having read both theories that dominate rat ownership. I ended up doing immersion with my first two rats, their 8 kits I own, and their adopted aunt who was aggressive. It didn't feel like I was forcing the rats, especially with my first doe who was timid. She didn't want to be around me so I let her explore our little hallway and me while I interacted with the more outgoing buck. I didn't force her to do anything or really bother her at all. Ecentually, she came over checked out my face and decided I was normal enough and groomed my wayward hair and teeth. 
The aunt was another story. No doubt she would've been euthanized after spending months in the 5 gal tank she called home. There wasn't a second way to communicate with her - she's blind and deaf. Food just reaffirmed her behavior (a fact she just spent twenty minutes refusing to end free range over...). It took a week and neither of us were happy when our two hour sessions were ready to occur twice a day. She completely closed me out, I don't have a clue what she thought of me but it wasn't much. 

My only point is RatDaddy doesn't stand alone. He may only have a few rats, and only have one gender, but his theory has been applied by others successfully. I have males and females, kits and elders. I believe (though it was long before me) a different member originally wrote the guide to immersion, RatClaws?

I'm sorry you think this forum is full of zombies that praise his every word, especially as many don't actually advocate immersion. In fact, when RatDaddy first replied to my post I called my mother and said he was a lunatic (sorry!) Shoulder rats? Did he really expect me to believe his rat walked around outdoors freely when even my best behaved dog needs a leash? I will say the photos convinced me and I showed everyone how cool rats could be, despite never venturing out with my own 11 rats. 
In any case, I stepped lightly into it. I said "I don't like that aspect so I'm not going to use it!" And had my own immersion. This is what everyone does who has used it. It's not a guide so much as a theory of what to try, steps to be decided as you go. None of my rats needed the same interaction as the others 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Rat Daddy

Nanashi7,

No offense taken... I realized when I wrote immersion it turned several old standards on their heads... And you don't really see how it works until you experience it... and yes I have no doubt that out of however many immersions there have been each one was different, with each having the flavor of the human that lead the session...

And historically RatClaws guide was first! As I was otherwise occupied RatClaws, compiled the information from my various threads and wrote an excellent practical guide. It's much more to the point than mine which involves more theory and makes for an excellent quick reference when you're neck deep in fur. I very much appreciate him contributing it to this thread. 

I haven't been able to get the message across that people who do immersion aren't torturing their rats... Thanks for hopefully helping me get that point across.


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## Gannyaan

This message is not directed to people who disagree with immersion and have openly commented about it. I respect you guys.
Its for the people who are just flat out being rude about this issue....

When I first read this... I was taken aback. Whoa! Did all the respect for each other just fly out the window? That is what makes this forum good; people share their experiences openly. Rat daddy has his own opinions, and for a long time has been a forum member that many of us respect and enjoy interacting with. I have no idea where all this hostility is coming from. Don't like immersion? Not the method for you? Don't use it, and recommend trust training instead. People have their own minds; trust training is on the forum as well. Please realize this is only one corner of the huge information source available both online and offline. I think people realize it's not the usual method before they employ it.

Disagree all you like; many people have disagreed here respectfully, and it's good to see people so interested in finding the best method for their fur buddies and other rats. But if you want people to be civil with you and respect your opinions, you should be respectful as well. 

I honestly don't care one way or another about methods of training... But I don't see why a sticky on immersion training has earned so much hostility. It's kind of concerning to see people have no regard for each others feelings and be disrespectful. Where's all this negativity coming from? *smh*. 

Civil conversations are what makes this forum great. I hope we keep it that way. 


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## bazmonkey

Gannyaan said:


> Please realize this is only one corner of the huge information source available both online and offline. I think people realize it's not the usual method before they employ it.


It has been touted more than once as a faster, more convenient method. I don't think a lot of casual members of this forum realize that at all.

For my part I have tried to keep my conversation impersonal and directed at the topic on hand. I certainly don't mean disrespect, only disagreement.

That said, it is the honest opinion of more than one person here that this method of socialization is needlessly risky and has the ability to make things worse if not done the right way. It would be disingenuous to have a sticky about immersion and not include this sentiment, for it gives the impression that Rat Daddy's theories are generally accepted by the larger rat community.


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## Gannyaan

bazmonkey said:


> It has been touted more than once as a faster, more convenient method. I don't think a lot of casual members of this forum realize that at all.
> 
> For my part I have tried to keep my conversation impersonal and directed at the topic on hand. I certainly don't mean disrespect, only disagreement.
> 
> That said, it is the honest opinion of more than one person here that this method of socialization is needlessly risky and has the ability to make things worse if not done the right way. It would be disingenuous to have a sticky about immersion and not include this sentiment, for it gives the impression that Rat Daddy's theories are generally accepted by the larger rat community.


Baz.... I wasn't referring to you. You're not hostile or rude, you simply have your opinions and are expressing them. No harm in thinking critically and raising concerns. In fact, that's how we all learn... If multiple people feel it's "needlessly risky" then it's good to voice it so we can all discuss and learn. I was simply saying to the people that this applies to that hostility and rudeness are unnecessary in such a discussion. Hope I'm clear. 


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## Charlottesmom

Gannyaan said:


> Baz.... I wasn't referring to you. You're not hostile or rude, you simply have your opinions and are expressing them. No harm in thinking critically and raising concerns. In fact, that's how we all learn... If multiple people feel it's "needlessly risky" then it's good to voice it so we can all discuss and learn. I was simply saying to the people that this applies to that hostility and rudeness are unnecessary in such a discussion. Hope I'm clear. Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It was me, I deleted the message and will PM an apology to RD, he has never resorted to personal attacks in our messages, even when totally disagreeing with what I said and I truely respect him for that. We can agree to disagree but I can do it in a more grown up fashion and not rely on mud slinging. I also apologise to anyone who saw the message, it truely was a rotten thing to write. Apologies.


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## Gannyaan

Charlottesmom said:


> It was me, I deleted the message and will PM an apology to RD, he has never resorted to personal attacks in our messages, even when totally disagreeing with what I said and I truely respect him for that. We can agree to disagree but I can do it in a more grown up fashion and not rely on mud slinging. I also apologise to anyone who saw the message, it truely was a rotten thing to write. Apologies.


I'm sure you didn't mean to  no hard feelings at all!! 


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## Charlottesmom

Gannyaan said:


> I'm sure you didn't mean to  no hard feelings at all!! Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I just PMed RD, he deserves an apology even if he didn't see the rottenness I wrote, I feel very bad for writing it and he never bad mouthed me so and apology was totally in order. Thank you for the no hard feelings.


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, I should thank Jorats for coming over from another board that doesn't have immersion, where he is an administrator to research and discuss the topic with us here. I hope he found at least something slightly useful, even if his preferred methods differ from immersion. I'm sure there are other things we might agree on and some day I look forward to finding them.

Some folks have been raising rats a long time and they have mastered their own methods. And when something new comes along they might feel threatened. That's understandable seeing new things appear in the landscape can be disconcerting and always have a way of looking or feeling bad at first. I hope that when they get a chance to think about it, they should know that on this forum no one is going to attack them for their methods and they can keep doing what they are doing forever, regardless of what we are doing here with immersion. And there are more than plenty new rat owners out there for everyone to coach. Hey the more of us helping the better, right?

Thank your Chyarlottesmom for the gracious apology. If we can't find common ground on rat socialization, perhaps we can find some agreement over our parrots. And if I got curt with anyone I'm sorry too... my rats found my daughters candy stash and were having a sugar fueled fiesta in the background while I was trying to provide thoughtful and cogent replies to the questions posed here.

I also would like to add that this thread continues to be open for people to post questions and get help and it is also for people who have improvements they have tried and tested and want to add. Immersion isn't a monolith, its actually developing many flavors depending on who is doing or coaching it. It can evolve organically with the contributed experience as more folks add their expertise.

After countless successful immersions, extreme immersions, on line real time immersions and video immersions the speed of the process and the success record speaks for itself. Reports of zombie rats and mauled owners or zombie owners and mauled rats have been greatly exaggerated. And I feel pretty good about all of the people we have been able to help here on Rat Forum. Not only those I've worked with personally but people that were helped by people who have done immersion, understand it and are now successfully coaching others. 

For my friends who added their kind words on my behalf.. thank you!


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## jorats

Immersion is not a new technique. Flooding has been around a very long time. Call it what you like, it's bullying. I came over here because I was trying to figure out why two well adjusted rats started to fight each other and bite their humans. I needed answers and found them here. Hormonal males do not behave like females. And the day you come across a hormonal female...good luck to you. They are even worse! Animals need respect, need their space and need to learn at their own pace. Most rats are happy and well adjusted, even the abused ones so yes, your flooding will work on them, in fact probably won't eve affect them at all. But there are those where flooding will cause harm. Will cause an otherwise good rat to become anxious and bite first without realizing he's biting. 
I believe this forum should have a disclaimer on this particular thread, it is the responsible thing to do. Immersion is dangerous depending on the rats you deal with. 
Also... Rat Daddy, you anthropomorphize your rats too much. But you are certainly allowed that thought, I just hope that readers don't fall for that romantic notion that rats are like that. Rats are animals, bred for over a thousand years to be a human's companion. They are not similar in behaviour to the wild rat. There is no alpha over humans. They want to live as comfortably as they can. If they bite or are fearful that is because it is part of who they are, not because they want to hold domination over you. Rats use two senses to navigate in life, sense of smell and touch through their whiskers. Their eyesight is so poor they don't rely on it at all. This is documented facts.http://www.ratbehavior.org So they don't sit there and stare you down or watch you. When a rat is in the process of grooming, they do so for two reasons, to clean themselves and when stressed. They don't rationalize or strategize or analyze anything, they are worried and want to find a happy comfortable place. Comfort is all animals want. Comfort, shelter, habitat, food and water. Love, interactions, play...those are bonuses and make rats the best possible pets because they are open and willing when they are comfortable to do so. 
I really hope your readers are made aware that your method can cause more harm than good. I hope that when someone comes to you with a severe case, that you tell them to do more research and find more solutions before trying to flood the poor animal into a complete shut down. Immersion is the very same as forced socializing, the only thing you make it last far too long. I hope you offer water and food during your immersion marathons. I will leave you now, I need to help one poor rat who has started biting, a rat who was well adjusted according to the SPCA rep I've been chatting with, trying to get answers as to why he has become the way he is. It's a first for me. I fear it will not be the last with people doing flooding now. 
Good luck to all.


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## Xerneas

I agree with jorats... If they have had over three hundred rats and huge colonies and never see this it makes me very doubtful. The idea of a humans becoming alpha to rats or the other way around completely baffles me as well. I just don't see how it's possible. Saying a rat wants to be alpha to, say, a group of cats is clearly bogus but yet they want to be alpha to humans? It's really difficult for me to grasp. If the theory of being an alpha to dogs has been disproven I don't see how it's different for rats. Frankly I don't have as much experience or knowledge on this subject but after doing a little reading it does really seem like it's identical to flooding but it's being sweetened with saying it's playing, etc. 

I also think that people blow neutering/trust training not helping way out of proportion. It's clearly very true that sometimes rats get overflown with hormones to the point where they don't know WHY they are behaving badly, they feel uncomfortable in their own skin and they aren't themselves anymore, and there are plenty of examples where neutering HAS solved the problem. Plus, this whole method exists on one corner of the internet. When I first joined this forum and saw it I tried looking for it all over the web and found nothing else on it. Rats are studied immensely, so why can't I find anything else on this supposed way of how they interact in the wild? There are hundreds if not thousands of people who haven't heard of it and have rats who just as sweet and bonded through trust training...

I understand that there's pretty much always a point where we have to put our pets through something they don't like, be it meds, vet trip, what have you, but if there's no need to rush it as has been said, why rush it through a forced six to eight hour session when I can EARN their trust and love? It doesn't matter to me if it takes longer because if I was a rat I wouldn't want a big scary giant waving themselves in my face for hours on end. I feel no need to take an easy way around when I can do it in a way that earns me their trust and I'm sure also saves them a lot of anxiety. I tried immersion once, and it lasted for maybe half an hour when it hit me that my rat was clearly very scared and uncomfortable and that I had two other rats who are some of the most loving pets I've had and groom me, cuddle with me and play with me through trust training and have never seen me as alpha. Yes, it did take a bit, but I am very proud of how I've earned their trust and the progress we made. So I decided to let the new girl be, took it gradually and slowly and we were already quite bonded within a few days and at this point she's as much as a playful doll as my other two girls. Like I said, I think an aspect of uncomfortableness comes with all forms of bonding and for me that was taking her out and making her sit in my hoodie or a shirt pocket for a ten or fifteen minutes but she was allowed to do as she pleased, hide and come out on her own terms when she was comfortable. I think immersion is too endorsed on this forum and that people do forget that not everyone feels the need to be a leader over their rats. This sticky is huge and full of a lot of intimidating information and IMO it's very overwhelming, especially for new owners and I dislike it being seen as some kind of miracle on here. If someone wants to do trust training but they get linked to immersion that's not quite right or fair in my eyes.

So, that's just my opinion. I don't control what people do with their pets and everyone is free to make their own choices but that's what I have to say on it. I've been a bit suspicious of this ever since I didn't find it backed up anywhere else on the internet and when someone who has been keeping rats since 2002 has very valid points I'm going to go about bonding with my rats differently for sure. But like I said, just my opinion and I wanted to voice it, and I respect whatever disagreements people have.


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## nanashi7

(Perhaps this discussion would best be taken to the rants/raves section for a proper discussion?)


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## bazmonkey

nanashi7 said:


> (Perhaps this discussion would best be taken to the rants/raves section for a proper discussion?)


Perhaps that would make this sticky look "official", and the disagreement merely a "rant/rave".


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## nanashi7

bazmonkey said:


> Perhaps that would make this sticky look "official", and the disagreement merely a "rant/rave".


Perhaps address the mods to add to the Trust Training, a warning about flooding and negative reinforcement. I simply meant filling this with bickering seems quite useless and needless. This is a guide and the mods saw fit to sticky it as a theory of socialization right next to trust training; this isn't an area to debate and argue.


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## Charlottesmom

jorats said:


> Immersion is not a new technique. Flooding has been around a very long time. Call it what you like, it's bullying. I came over here because I was trying to figure out why two well adjusted rats started to fight each other and bite their humans. I needed answers and found them here. Hormonal males do not behave like females. And the day you come across a hormonal female...good luck to you. They are even worse! Animals need respect, need their space and need to learn at their own pace. Most rats are happy and well adjusted, even the abused ones so yes, your flooding will work on them, in fact probably won't eve affect them at all. But there are those where flooding will cause harm. Will cause an otherwise good rat to become anxious and bite first without realizing he's biting. I believe this forum should have a disclaimer on this particular thread, it is the responsible thing to do. Immersion is dangerous depending on the rats you deal with. Also... Rat Daddy, you anthropomorphize your rats too much. But you are certainly allowed that thought, I just hope that readers don't fall for that romantic notion that rats are like that. Rats are animals, bred for over a thousand years to be a human's companion. They are not similar in behaviour to the wild rat. There is no alpha over humans. They want to live as comfortably as they can. If they bite or are fearful that is because it is part of who they are, not because they want to hold domination over you. Rats use two senses to navigate in life, sense of smell and touch through their whiskers. Their eyesight is so poor they don't rely on it at all. This is documented facts.http://www.ratbehavior.org So they don't sit there and stare you down or watch you. When a rat is in the process of grooming, they do so for two reasons, to clean themselves and when stressed. They don't rationalize or strategize or analyze anything, they are worried and want to find a happy comfortable place. Comfort is all animals want. Comfort, shelter, habitat, food and water. Love, interactions, play...those are bonuses and make rats the best possible pets because they are open and willing when they are comfortable to do so. I really hope your readers are made aware that your method can cause more harm than good. I hope that when someone comes to you with a severe case, that you tell them to do more research and find more solutions before trying to flood the poor animal into a complete shut down. Immersion is the very same as forced socializing, the only thing you make it last far too long. I hope you offer water and food during your immersion marathons. I will leave you now, I need to help one poor rat who has started biting, a rat who was well adjusted according to the SPCA rep I've been chatting with, trying to get answers as to why he has become the way he is. It's a first for me. I fear it will not be the last with people doing flooding now. Good luck to all.


LOL! I knew rats had very poor eyesight but my husband always insisted they were "staring at him and plotting against him" my reply, yes, yes they were!


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## Charlottesmom

My one question is why can't we post on the trust training sticky?


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## Gannyaan

Charlottesmom said:


> My one question is why can't we post on the trust training sticky?


I thought there was- just ask for one. 


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## Xerneas

Gannyaan said:


> I thought there was- just ask for one.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There is a trust training sticky but it is locked so it can't be replied to. I think that's what she meant.


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## nanashi7

Probably to prevent this sort of extension in pages...


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## Charlottesmom

Xerneas said:


> There is a trust training sticky but it is locked so it can't be replied to. I think that's what she meant.


 Yup, exactly.


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## Rat Daddy

Jorats,

I've really tried to be patient with you and to try to help you. Being an administrator on another web site you are in a better position to help people than I am and yet you go out of your way to criticize a new ideas and methods. And by the way methods that have already helped hundreds if not thousands of rat owners to have better relationships with their rats. 

JR -Immersion is not a new technique. Flooding has been around a very long time. Call it what you like, it's bullying. 

RD - Respectfully, Immersion is not flooding and it when a human sits down and plays with his new rat in order to introduce himself he is NOT bullying it. And when a human tries to communicate to her rat to improve his behavior she isn't bullying it.. I understand that it is easier to attack someone or something by calling it a derogatory name, so you are trying to call immersion flooding, which most people here have never heard of but you claim it's evil and you intended to somehow cast a dispersion on a great theory and practice with and OUTSTANDING TRACK RECORD that helps people every day. By the way even if you cant see the difference you could use the term immersion on a thread about immersion when we are talking about immersion just out of simple respect to the topic you are discussing and the people you are writing to. If you are trying to use anther name to cast dispositions on immersion, name calling is a technique to discredit something or someone you don't like, plain and simple. It is a form of bullying... Is this the way you treat people on your board? If you don't like what they have to say or they disagree with your opinion do you call them a name or call their ideas names?

JR - I came over here because I was trying to figure out why two well adjusted rats started to fight each other and bite their humans. I needed answers and found them here. 

RD - If you are implying that the problem had something to do with immersion. That would actually interest me! And even if it only has to do with helping someone with problem rats, I would have been happy to help and still will be. No need to rant, just have the people ask for help or discuss the problem in a calm and rational manner.

JR - Hormonal males do not behave like females. And the day you come across a hormonal female...good luck to you. They are even worse!

RD - Studies have shown that when a rat becomes an alpha (as in the common usage of the word as in alpha rat not alpha wolf) it's hormone levels tend to increase. And increased hormones in males are in fact linked to more aggressive behavior, among other things... The same studies showed that when a rat was replaced in it's dominant role and supplanted by another alpha it's hormones will reduce back to a level similar to other subordinate male rats. And the aggression attributed to the increased hormone production should reduce accordingly. Addressing rats with elevated hormone levels through immersion is based on this concept (not flooding). Furthermore, not all aggressive behavior is caused by elevated hormones some of it can be due to human abuse or neglect. In the case of neglect immersion theory recommends that humans play a more active roll in their rats lives and spend more time with them on a daily basis. Often when rats spend more time engaged with their humans their behavior tends to improve... 

Oddly although you suggest that immersion can't help male rats with elevated hormones yet you are offering nothing that can! If you are suggesting that all aggressive male rats need to be neutered I can provide you plenty of cases where immersion worked. In some of those cases people couldn't afford neutering and didn't even have that option. Sometimes neutering is the best or only option. And there is an on line - real time immersion here with a rat that had already been neutered that we fixed. If you are really here for a discussion on the topic I would be happy to discuss it with you? But I"m not sure at this point that's your intention.

As to female hormonal aggression I don't know that we have ever had to address that in immersion, but most of our posters don't have their rat's hormone levels measured so it can be ruled as the only cause for the aggression. There are other health issues that can cause aggression in both males and females, but again other posters don't often bring medical records with them either. It's not a cop out when immersion can't fix every rat, there are rats beyond all help, yours or mine, some of which may have physical, neural or other "mental" (shorthanded) issues. Again under "normal" circumstances I would love to hear about your experiences with hormonal female rats... But you aren't even offering to discuss them... If we had the benefit of your experience here perhaps immersion could help or more likely we could form a model of behavior that we can save people from wasting their time with something that won't work... If I see a problem with someone's car. based on my 40 years repairing cars and owning antique cars, I offer help... I don't stop by to call them names.

JR - Animals need respect, need their space and need to learn at their own pace. Most rats are happy and well adjusted,

RD - Agreed. First of all that's why immersion takes so long and second immersion is only the first step in the process, after immersion comes training and daily play. The immersion session isn't the end of the process, it's only the beginning! Immersion theory is a life long relationship between an animal and it's human... Hopefully at the end of immersion we have formed the basis for a life long bond and in extreme immersions we have stopped a rat from attacking it's owner and forming a healthy basis for a further relationship... but immersion is all about creating, evolving and maintaining a life long bond. Rats the graduate from the immersion session aren't robots or zombies or magically altered, rather they are ready to learn all of the skills they will need to develop further with their new families at their own pace... 

JR - even the abused ones

RD - I'm not sure most abused rats are happy or well adjusted, but your experience may be different than mine and we can choose to disagree congenially.

JR - so yes, your flooding will work on them, in fact probably won't eve affect them at all. 

RD - Again I don't appreciate the name calling, but if you mean immersion by "your flooding" at least you acknowledge that immersion fixes "some rats" and doesn't hurt others, at least that minor progress.

JR - But there are those where flooding will cause harm. Will cause an otherwise good rat to become anxious and bite first without realizing he's biting. 

RD - Again "flooding", seriously if you wanted to discuss immersion why couldn't you just write immersion, and I have no cause or interest to defend "flooding". Immersion done correctly or even anything that resembles nearly correctly, does not cause good rats to become anxious and become anxious and bite first without realizing it's biting. Immersion with a good rat is nothing more than a slightly longer than usual play session... Most are over or vastly successful in about two to three hours. To restate your point if you play with your rat in a reasonably spacious room for a few hours while you get to know each other and build a relationship, the rat will become anxious and bite you without knowing it's biting? Seriously? I have no clue what happens in flooding but that never happens in immersion!

RD - I believe this forum should have a disclaimer on this particular thread, it is the responsible thing to do. Immersion is dangerous depending on the rats you deal with. 

JR - Perhaps you underestimate people, but in the event of extreme immersions people know that they are taking risks to their own health and well being when they armor up and sit down with a biting rat that is attacking them. As far as the rat goes, mostly people are as gentle with their rats. They are putting their own safety at risk for the love of their rat in the first place. It's emotionally draining for people to stay engaged and reach out to their beloved animal that's attacking them. Although the vast majority of extreme immersions end in tears of joy, the people that go through it have a much rougher time than their rats. No rats are beaten into submission or tortured in an immersion session ever!!!!! We could discuss this at length, but again you aren't asking a question... YOU ARE MAKING A CLAIM THAT YOU CAN NOT SUPPORT!

JR - Also... Rat Daddy, you anthropomorphize your rats too much. But you are certainly allowed that thought, I just hope that readers don't fall for that romantic notion that rats are like that. 

RD - I find that people understand simple English and relate to actual situations in their lives... When I suggest that people act like a parent I don't mean they should try to give birth to a rat... rather that they adapt a familiar role they mostly can relate to to the way they communicate with their animals.

JR - Rats are animals, bred for over a thousand years to be a human's companion. 

RD - My research tends to indicate that the oldest component of our current domestic rat strains come from those captured by Jack Black and his contemporaries and the albinos specifically from one found in a British cemetery in the late 1800's. And those are the oldest genes, theres no reason we cant assume that breeders haven't added in more genes since the 1800's from wild rats. As a matter of fact I owned a part wild rat. Where I do agree that there is a temple in India where rat have been more of less domesticated for a very long time, those are Rattus rattus not our Norway rats from what little I've read. And although witches were indeed claimed to have rat familiars (pet rats) going back a few hundred years. Those were wild rats. And to my knowledge none of them ever entered the current gene-pool our rats stem from. If you know of a thousand year old strain of rats that's part of the current gene pool.... that would be great and I think lots of people would love to hear about it.

JR - They are not similar in behaviour to the wild rat. 

RD - Species take millions of years to evolve and some human behaviors go right back to ancestors thousands of years ago. Even with rats having a shorter generational cycle 150 years in captivity hasn't changed them so as they are different animals... My part wild rat was different in some ways to my domestic rats, but she had plenty of similarities to my domestic rats too.

But why argue when we can watch the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjvz26FVZs

JR - There is no alpha over humans. 

RD - Tell that to bosses I've had and some of the bullies in my high school.

JR - They want to live as comfortably as they can. If they bite or are fearful that is because it is part of who they are, not because they want to hold domination over you. 

RD - OK, you are talking about rats now... Apparently you feel that rats can't see humans as "like themselves" Whereas I tend to think the exact opposite. Domestic rats see humans they have bonded with as "like themselves" I think that's the basis for their ability to bond with us. We can't actually get into our rats heads so we can't settle this debate here. Immersion is based on the theory that rats can relate to humans in a similar way as they can relate to other rats. Rats and humans can integrate into a single bonded unit. Therefore a rat that is alpha (as in rat alpha, now wolf or other alpha) aggressive might very well express it's aggression against humans. With as many rats as you have had, have you never seen a rat that was both aggressive towards its fellow rats and it's humans at the same time?

JR - Rats use two senses to navigate in life, sense of smell and touch through their whiskers. Their eyesight is so poor they don't rely on it at all. This is documented facts.http://www.ratbehavior.org So they don't sit there and stare you down or watch you. 

RD - I am familiar with that web site, and as usual I read it differently Rats have a different visual color spectrum they also have much grainier vision like a newspaper photo vs a high resolution PC monitor, they do however have excellent depth of field. Either way rats can's see like or as well we do. But I am a shoulder rat trainer. I do work with rats in vast spaces we are talking about acres not square feet. And the rats I've had have demonstrated vastly different eyesight. My black-ruby eyed rat would run to a LARGE (We are talking small building large) place of cover if set lose in an open area that was about 25 feet away. If you went much over that she would pretty much stay frozen in place seeing nowhere to run or hide. So far Max (natural brown eyes) has identified an area of tall grass at over 50 feet and a small tree at well over 100 feet. Fuzzy Rat (narural brown eyes) could identify individuals she knew at over 50 feet and regularly crossed extensive open areas to get to specific places. She even jumped in the water and swam over 30 feet to get around us to reach a patch of shrubs on top of a wall and behind a chain link fence she wanted to explore... she was swimming she wasn't sniffing her way along! And I'm being very conservative with my distances! I might add, if you are interested, in the dark rats visual acuity drops radically. At night in a poorly let area Max can not identify a small tree at 20 feet or at least she won't run to it to explore. Fuzzy Rat always went back to the car or home at twilight or if the sky was overcast. Rats are blind in low lights or in the dark. Feel free to do your own test. Now I have never had a pink eyed rat. But with the lights on or outdoors my rats have no trouble seeing me at reasonable distances and at distances of over 3 to 5 feet they will commonly focus on an interesting object I might be holding in my hand. Regardless of whether you agree with my own experience... a rat with normal eye color and some other can see you, especially if you move from half way across a normal size room.

JR - When a rat is in the process of grooming, they do so for two reasons, to clean themselves and when stressed. They don't rationalize or strategize or analyze anything, they are worried and want to find a happy comfortable place. Comfort is all animals want. Comfort, shelter, habitat, food and water. Love, interactions, play...those are bonuses and make rats the best possible pets because they are open and willing when they are comfortable to do so. 

RJ - FINALLY!!!! Why didn't you start out with that? You have stated the entire crux of your position. Rats don't think, they have no level of understanding, they are not rational, not metacognative, not capable of advanced emotions, not capable of formulating plans or strategies, not capable of identifying humans as similar to themselves, certainly not capable of communication with humans... the long and short of your disagreement with Immersion is that you have a very narrow view of what rats are and what rats can be. You don't grasp the concept of immersion because you can't get past the rat being nothing more than a stimulus - reaction organism like an amoeba. I'm surprised you listed love in your list of list of bonuses.... In your model ,rats are only capable of experiencing stress and moving towards comfort. That was the entire bases of operand conditioning its a model even current science rejects. When you take away all of the theory and all of the experience shared by countless rat owners and all of the modern science you come down to a very primitive animal and immersion appears like flooding to you... Maybe you weren't name calling... I'm starting to think you are serious. Maybe you have had too many rats and not spent enough time with any one on one... I learned exactly what you are proposing back in college, but I've evolved. I have worked with intelligent metacognative rats one on one for countless hours and under all kind of indoor and outdoor conditions. While I never met a rat that didn't like comfort, I've also never met a rat that was nearly as primitive as you make rats out to be. OK... there's no way we are going to agree on anything... at least I understand your frame of reference and I can see how in your view of the world what you are saying makes sense. As the human co-founder of immersion... as a former psychology sociology double major... As a rat trainer with thousands of hours of one on one experience with rats under all kinds of situations as someone that has owned and trained two, not one, true shoulder rat I absolutely, unequivocally reject your very limited and unenlightened view of rats too. I'm not being unkind... I understand your view of the word, and it is after all coherent, I mean no personal disrespect to you... But your view of rats is wrong. Seriously I don't disrespect you, you may be a very experienced rat owner and you might be a really intelligent and charming person otherwise but for what ever reason you are clinging on to the 1950s model of what a rat is and that's blurring your entire view of immersion.

JR - I really hope your readers are made aware that your method can cause more harm than good. I hope that when someone comes to you with a severe case, that you tell them to do more research and find more solutions before trying to flood the poor animal into a complete shut down. Immersion is the very same as forced socializing, the only thing you make it last far too long. 

As you don't see the differences between our objectives and can't grasp that the humans and the rats in immersion are actually interacting and communicating with each other, you can't see immersion as different than flooding or forced socialization. As you can't see how the rat can react to the human and how the human can respond to the rat you can't see that changes are happening in the relationship not just the rat. As you can't see that the rat actually comes to understand and participate and even drive the action, you think it's being tortured. As you don't see that the human is actually responding to the rat in a way it can understand you can't see how every immersion can possibly be different. And I understand why you would predict dire results..... But that's not what happens, immersion is based on advanced theories and produces advanced results!!! And the success of immersion as a practice goes towards proving the theories.

Seriously, you have rats handy, take a few hours out of your day and sit down with one that isn't particularly well bonded to you and just be open to communication with it. Be engaging, no don't bully it, but stay in contact as much as you can, play with it, try to understand it as more than an amoeba gravitating towards the light. Play with it, give it a few treats room permitting bring the litter-box and a dish of water along... no reason you shouldn't... and try to just have fun and get to know your rat and let it get to know you... And over the course of the time you will watch the rat start to respond to you with more confidence and in a more relaxed fashion and you may develop a better bond. And there you have it... you have done immersion! I predict, with reasonable certainty that your rat will not become a zombie nor will it be harmed in any way. Your dire predictions don't happen because your view of rats isn't current.

JR - I hope you offer water and food during your immersion marathons. 


RD - Treats, water food litter box even kids and toys are all welcome in the immersion area.

JR - I will leave you now, I need to help one poor rat who has started biting, a rat who was well adjusted according to the SPCA rep I've been chatting with, trying to get answers as to why he has become the way he is. It's a first for me. I fear it will not be the last with people doing flooding now. 

RD - I know your hearts in the right place.... On my end, our non-shoulder rat who was a screwed up adopted rat, just came out of her secret nest, where she slept the day away an pounded on my foot to be picked up. When she got up on arm she climbed my shirt and put her nose to MY lips which is the way she tells me she is hungry and when I asked her "where do you want to go" she pointed her nose right at the cage where went potty, drank her water and sat next to her food bowl waiting for dinner. I was just in communication with one of my rats... I do so very much hope some day you come around, the world is so much warmer and more colorful on our side of the fence... 

I wish you the best of luck with the biting rescue rat. And regardless of our different opinions my curiosity is genuine in the two problem rats you mentioned early on in your post. If the problem was related to immersion or not, I am 100% at your service to help. PM me anytime!


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## hiddenjumprope

I'm trying my best to immerse my two new pet store ratties. I wanted to get younger rats (and I probably still will, as I'm getting two more) but my gf and I fell in love with these two. Since I don't have permission to have them at my place yet they are at my gf's. Until my gf get a job she is living in the public area of the basement (she'll move into the spare room when she can pay more rent). So we don't have the best place to do immersion, though we did do a short one rat at a time in the bathroom. 

Right now we're opening the cage and letting them come out when they want to, or take them out. They don't squirm so much anymore when I grab them. Sadly since their temp cage has a small opening I can't do the scoop method, but I'm being as gentle as possible. Pippin likes to come out, but most times when I try to pet him he gets scared and runs back into the cage. He's getting more used to pets now, but is still scared sometimes.
Merry rarely comes out on his own, so usually I take him out. He usually runs right back in. 

I try to at least put my hand in there and pet them as much as possible, and they do sniff my hand and lately have been licking it (probably looking for food or water though, as sometimes I put water on my finger for them to lick off). They are on the floor right next to my gf's bed, so they are always around my girlfriend (and me when I'm there). 

I'm just nervous they wont grow to really like us or want to come out much besides to explore in pippins case. They seem to prefer their cage more than anything else. When I did the small immersion in the bathroom, Merry was great and kept coming to my girlfriend and I and we would pet him (mostly he would come to me). Pippin liked to explore more but did come to both of us for pets. Though as we left the bathroom he diarrhea'd on my gf, poor baby. It might have been the chocolate chips we gave him though, he's probably never had them before (we only gave him 3, and they are super small. So 3 of these guys is 1 normal chip. And we aren't giving more to him for awhile. Funny enough Merry did not want the chocolate chips at all. He was not interested. Pippin wasn't either till I spread some chocolate on a baby puff treat that he already likes.)

But when their cage is around they are more scared of us. I'm trying to remember they are Petsmart rats and they are already doing better than usual considering that and they are 6mo or older, it's just hard because I read all these wonderful stories on here about rats and these two don't seem to like pets and run away (especially Merry when near his cage, again funny enough in the bathroom he liked to be pet and cuddle more than Pip).


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## bazmonkey

Rat Daddy said:


> Seriously, you have rats handy, take a few hours out of your day and sit down with one that isn't particularly well bonded to you and just be open to communication with it. Be engaging, no don't bully it, but stay in contact as much as you can, play with it, try to understand it as more than an amoeba gravitating towards the light. Play with it, give it a few treats room permitting bring the litter-box and a dish of water along... no reason you shouldn't... and try to just have fun and get to know your rat and let it get to know you... And over the course of the time you will watch the rat start to respond to you with more confidence and in a more relaxed fashion and you may develop a better bond. And there you have it... you have done immersion!


How is this different than trust training done in a neutral (not the cage) location? I don't think this is the stage of your theory that JR has an issue with.

During this session, what should I do if my fearful rat snaps at me? I think the answer to this question--and the theory behind it--is part of where the objections lie.

What is your basis for claiming rats are metacognitive? I am aware of the Foote-Crystal study, but this has been challenged as being interpreted incorrectly and others have claimed that this behavior can be explained via simpler models that do not assume metacognition. EDIT: I'm not asking for a research citation, but rather what in your experience has led you to conclude that rats are capable of thoughts on this level. There are many non-metacognitive species that produce quite complicated behavior that smacks of higher thought but is not. A quick example would be insect colonies. 

Also, how does your rat communicate with you and vice versa? You talk about it as something separate from simple positive and negative conditioning. What would be an example of "communication" as something beyond that? Do you convey actual information beyond "that was good", and "that was not good"?


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## Rat Daddy

Immersion is a new method and we wanted people to feel free and add their questions and to post answers and explanations. Mostly we wanted to help people having difficulty with the process and avoid them having problems. Although this thread has gotten a bit convoluted. It turns out that Jorats objections are something we have heard before, and they belong on this thread for other people to evaluate on their own... you can save the long read... here's the shorthand version:

If you don't believe that rats are intelligent, metacognative animals capable learning and of seeing humans as " somewhat like themselves" and communicating with us... Immersion boils down to something called flooding or forced socialization. As you can't picture yourself communicating and building a bond the rat wants as much as you do, you are going to think you are bullying a rat rather than reaching out to it and teaching it... You can't view the "alpha rat" role you are emulating as one that is parental, consensual, friendly and loving, because you can't accept that rats can comprehend that. If the only way you can appreciate "alpha rat" is through the idea of "bringer of fear and pain"... immersion seems harsh and brutal... Which of course it is not!

It's good that we got this out of the way... And hopefully put it behind us. Immersion is based on metacognitioin and communication and on rats being intelligent. It assumes that the human is going to reach out to the rat and let it participate in determining the direction an immersion takes and not just push it around. 

Theories are interesting in that if you don't believe in gravity you won't float away If you don't believe in rats being intelligent and communicative creatures, you can still do immersion. if you use good judgement, common sense, patience and try to understand your rat's basic body language and don't act like a dictator... it might still work perfectly for you. 

But in order to truly understand the true benefits of immersion you really need to start out with grasping the modern concepts on which it is based. 

With the glaring exception of last disembodied vestiges of "positive reinforcement" or "positive conditioning" still haunting us (because it was the best part) the operand conditioning behavioral model of rats and humans is dead! We all agree that negative conditioning and negative reinforcement shouldn't be the focus of socialization or animal training, we've let go of that half of behavioral psychology and we aren't trying to cure abhorrent human behavior with electrical shock therapy and genital stimulation anymore and most certainly we don't see ourselves as simply responding to stimulus anymore... I mean we all accept we are intelligent and metacognative... It's time to let go of the whole construct. Accept that rats can think and communicate and that they can love you. Take the leap of faith... and immersion will make perfect sense to you too.

And if you can't there are other methods that have been around since BF Skinner that have a track record too.

I don't know how many folks are really going to read all of the way to page 17 to get this far, but for those truly interested in immersion it might be worth getting to.


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## bazmonkey

Rat Daddy said:


> I don't know how many folks are really going to read all of the way to page 17 to get this far, but for those truly interested in immersion it might be worth getting to.


I for one want to thank you for continuing to respond to all of us. All conclusions aside it is nothing but informative and healthy that the conversation in this thread is available for immersion supporters and naysayers alike.


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## Rat Daddy

TatsuKitty,

That's about how it works, your rats are afraid of you, pretty much until they aren't... I know that sounds strange.

But when you and your rats are apart or on opposite sides of bars, nothing good happens. It's not until you are engaged together that things can change.

It sounds like you made progress before you stopped which is a good thing. The long session concept is intended to give your rats time with you to first not see you as a predator, then not an enemy, then not as furniture and eventually as their best big buddy. That takes time for rats that haven't a clue what a human is. Most rats people bring home really have no experience with humans beyond being moved cage to cage by the tail. And this takes time to overcome.

Short sessions don't usually make any progress, your rat is afraid when you start and afraid when you stop and the next session is a repeat of the first. After a while rats get sick of being manhandled by a stranger and actually can get more hostile towards you. Yes, short sessions can actually turn fearful rats into biting rats. A rat that isn't afraid of you, but doesn't like you is worse than a rat that's afraid of you.

So keep up the good work, if when you pick up again your rat is still licking you reward it with treats and affection, verbal and tactile. Really try to spend time getting to know each other and try to become friends. That's where communication really begins. The object of the exercise is to replace fear with friendship and trust going both ways.

I wouldn't wait until Friday or Saturday, that's 3 days where your rats are being left alone without the benefit of your protection and emotional support. Rats often get so bonded they really get unhappy when you aren't there for them every day, if not all day. 

I went out last night without our shoulder rat and as soon as I walked in the door I was overrun by her because I apparently wasn't where I should have been last night... she's not much of a lap rat, but she figures I should always be there when she wakes up from somewhere under the furniture. She followed me around the house until I went to bed and I almost stepped on her several times as she wouldn't leave my side and intercepted me every time I headed for the door. She wakes up, poops, pees, drinks, climbs on me to check in, says hi to her roomie, runs around to explore if anything changed while she slept and then eats. I suppose I wasn't there and she didn't want it to happen again.

When I lock my rat up even for a few hours, she sits there glaring at me, then chomps the bars and then starts climbing the bars and making noise to get my attention... she just doesn't understand that sometimes she has to stay in her cage when my rat phobic wife is around. In fact she's got pretty good at evaporating when the wife comes home so she doesn't get caged. Avoiding the wife and staying in hiding until she leaves works just about as well as being locked up for everyone concerned, so it's slowly becoming the new normal. Rats are actually very clever.

Best luck and spend as much time as you can with your rats, and try to keep the sessions as long as possible... I know it's sometimes inconvenient, but it will pay off when you can hang out with your rats every day and just enjoy each other's company.


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## LilCritter

I'm planning on getting a mischief of maybe 6 rats. Could I do an immersion session with them all at once? If I wanted to do it one-on-one, how would I go about that?


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## Rat Daddy

With one on one you go from most outgoing to most shy... you co-opt the natural leaders to help you with the natural followers.

If you multitask well you can do all six at once, plan for a very long session or a couple long sessions. If you don't multitask well, do one at a time or you might get swarmed.

Of course eventually you should be able to have all your rats out at once for play time, so whatever your immersion strategy it's going to end in a group event eventually.

Naturally biting or aggressive rats are always immersed one on one for safety reasons and those get first and top priority.


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## TatsuKitty

ok, I'm definitely stealing a good chunk of time for them! It's midterms week so I can't do a HUGE session again but they get attention and love from me everyday. (How could I ever say no to those sweet little faces?!) I'm really glad my room is pretty rat proofed now toO!


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## LilCritter

Rat Daddy said:


> If you multitask well you can do all six at once, plan for a very long session or a couple long sessions. If you don't multitask well, do one at a time or you might get swarmed.


How would working with multiple rats look like? Do I wait until one approaches me and initiate with that one? And "play" with them as they come? Or do I just let them crawl around/on me while I focus on one?


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## nanashi7

I multitasked with six girls. The shy ones, two girls, I stuck down my hoodie so they could slowly acclimate to me by their comfort but weren't sitting in a corner alone. The others you want to engage in some form. You want a smaller place than others would use, so half a bathroom. This is so you can reach all at all times. You engage first, don't wait on them. This could mean skritching them, treating them, initiating play, reading to them, all of the above or an activity the rat seems interested in, like exploring your bizarre fur less face with no whiskers. 

It might be better to determine who has what personality and split into two or three groups, I usually pair an outgoing rat with a shy rat in a pair immersion again cuddling the shy one while engaging the more social one.


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## Rat Daddy

You are asking a great question but one that doesn't have a good answer. Each rat has it's own personality, you might wild up with six rats jumping all over your for attention or six rats huddled in a distant corner or any permutation of possibilities. Yes you may have to fend off an overly affectionate rat while addressing the needs of an overly shy one... That's the reason for my remark about your multitasking abilities. You can only do what you can handle.

I met a fellow with 11 kids, to some extent his kids terrorized the playground, but my daughter made friends with his youngest little girl and I got to hang out with their dad, he was relaxed and confident while the kids watched over and protected each other. He didn't manage 11 kids they managed themselves in a strange kind of military order... So he could relax and chat with me, while my daughter and rat were part of his pack I could relax too as they had the extended protection and supervision of the herd.

On the other hand I've seen haggard moms chase only one or two kids around the playground completely out of control and because of the chaos, I've stepped in to create order before my daughter or our rat got hurt. 

Some folks multitask well and can remain calm and focused on what needs doing in the middle of what would otherwise become chaos, other folks really can't and easily become overwhelmed. If you think 6 rats are going to be too much, don't overwhelm yourself start with two.

You see, I enjoy one on one time with a single rat. Yes we have two rats, but so far we have only had one true shoulder rat at a time and another rat that keeps our shoulder rat company, she's a fine rat and a good girl but doesn't usually require or prefer too much attention. We give her one on one time every day but still for me six rats would be overwhelming. 

I also have one daughter and the idea of 11 children would be a nightmare, for the fellow with 11 kids he couldn't comprehend the idea of having any less... If you are already getting uncomfortable about dealing with so many rats, take a break and think it through....

This was Fuzzy Rat (the rat that taught us all about immersion)... 

She was an only rat for much of her life...

She liked to climb trees









And she swam at the beach and walked at heel 









She hung out at the playground and played with the kids there








and ate dinner with us









and she napped on my desk when I was working 








and she loved us and was loved until the very last minutes of her life...








I'm not sure what 5 more rats would have done for us or what we would have done with them... We were more than happy to spend every minute we had with one very special friend that was as much a part of our family as the humans and even after she had a rat friend she always preferred to spend time with us anyway.

Someone wrote on this thread that they had over 300 rats a few of which were special, we had one rat that was amazing and all of the rats we've had were special, but we'll never have 300 rats most of which aren't special to anyone...

I feel you stressing... so, I know this isn't the advise you asked for, and it might be wrong for you, but if you're concerned about being overwhelmed, think about taking it a little slower.... Start with two rats and really get to know them, immerse them and train them and if you still can handle more go for it! Surviving immersion isn't the goal it's just the beginning of a new life with a new best friend or in your case a pack of best friends.

Best luck.


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## Rat Daddy

Or, you could do exactly what Nanashi7 did... that's what effective multitasking looks like.


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## LilCritter

Haha, the stress is from a different aspect of life that's just sort of complete chaos at the moment. My multitasking is usually pretty good.
If I were to only do 1-2 at a time, what would the others be doing? Would I put them in the cage while I immerse the two?


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## Rat Daddy

Nanashi7 might give you better blow by blow information, as I generally adopt one rat at a time.

Not many people bring home a six pack of rats the same day... so there isn't going to be a vast knowledge base on what happens when you do.

And I'm going to assume that none of the rats in the group are aggressive or biting rats... or this will get even harder.

I'm thinking by theory, it's best to get everybody immersed as soon as possible and make first contact as soon as you get your new rats home. If the rats have never been housed together before, that will make things even more interesting as you will be dealing with immersion and introductions at the same time... 

Now, I'm wondering... do you have any more humans you can recruit for a mass immersion -introduction session? If the rats have never met before things could get messy in the cage while you immerse one or two at a time... Kids, parents, or friends who own rats could come in handy to manage the confusion while you try and get to know each rat. I suppose you should dedicate the better part of a day for the first session and I think the principle goals should be to break up fights and try to get everyone playing with you and the other humans. I'd likely measure success by how interactive you can get each rat to be with you and try and get at least the most dominant ones to bond to you as much as you can. You don't want to be competing with would be pack leaders for hearts and minds later.

It would be nice to have everyone napping in your lap after a few hours, but that might just not be doable in a single day, if ever. But if you can get all six rats to acknowledge you and interact with you, start to get the potential leaders onto your team and get all of the rats to peacefully cohabit the same cage... That might be an impressive first days work. After that, depending on how that goes and how well you managed it, you can do both larger and smaller groups, you can start with one and bring in the rest one at a time if you prefer or you can spend extra time with problem individuals until you get everybody socialized.

The theory holds that you want to start bonding with your rats as soon as possible, you want to be there for them to facilitate their transition into your home and to offer them your guidance and protection. You want to make as much progress as you can in long rather than short sessions... but six rats are a big challenge and there are only so many hours in a day and you need to sleep and eat too... I'd bring treats, food and water into the session with you and address the fact that your rats may not be housebroken... I'd likely plan to bring the rats home first thing Saturday morning and not make plans for Sunday either and dedicate every evening for the rest of the week to your pack. And you want to engage every rat until you get communication established and a dialogue opened and the depends on the rats you bring home almost as much as your dedication and determination when it comes to how long it will take.

After immersion, you're then moving on to training six rats and after that you've got daily free range and play time with six rats. 

Somewhere you are going to have to apply theory into practice and change the formula to suit your situation. But your rats actually will want to join your family and they will want to love you and they will need you to guide them and keep them safe. The odds are massively stacked in your favor at the outset but the road from here to there is going to be a trip for sure. Basically, you are going to have to play this concert by ear and manage whatever comes up as it does. If the octomom can raise how many kids without losing one? this should be doable and who knows it might even be great fun, but it will definitely be challenging.


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## LilCritter

The rats will all be coming from the same breeder, and from what I've seen are generally curious and willing to interact with anyone who comes by. I'm not sure if I would be able to get them housed together, so it will definitely be an experience.
I have people who are willing to help out, but none of them have owned rats before.
Also, in regards to dominance, how would I pick the more dominant ones out from the group? Are they the ones that are more outgoing?


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## Rat Daddy

If the breeder can try and assemble the group into one cage before you adopt them that might be nice so you won't have to deal with the intros, and then she can tell you who the natural leaders are, otherwise yes, among any group of rats, those with leadership potential will often be the most active and outgoing, they will usually be getting preened by or preening the most other rats... With males they can sometimes be standoffish with their human competition before they make their power grab. Some humans who do larger mischiefs tend to recruit these potential competitors as their lieutenants devoting more time to them and feeding them first for example.

Recruiting extra help for the immersion will make everything go easier, it's best if you get family members or close friends who are going to be interacting with your rats after the immersion anyway. This way it's a more complete getting to know the family experience for everybody... but you take what help you can.

The fact that these rats are from a breeder helps, if the breeder is good and has already started their introduction to humans. Talk to her beforehand and try to get as much information about your new rats as you can but don't assume anything for certain. Rats react differently to different people so they may act differently with you than they did with her.


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## nanashi7

If the rats are social and curious, it may be not worth fretting over who's what and groups with immersion. Try to make group activities, some involving treats are a hit, and just have a play and explore session. Bobbing for peas can be fun, especially if they've never done it you'd need to show them. I also use these group activities to enforce a bond when I do intros. I let them meet and wrestle it out a bit then I give everyone lavish attention and ask them to play. 


Even forgoing a massive immersion, you could do well with splitting into pairs. You won't need to know who is what in the cage hierarchy while you do it in pairs, just get rats that compliment each other in socialness. At the end of which, I'd advise a supervised huge immersion where everyone comes out. That will reveal more who is what and then you can shape the interactions. I have a huge mischief but Remus, my male, is mostly in charge. I don't like extended tense interactions and excessive squeaking upsets me. Normally, by the time I wake up and run to the cage Remus is standing whisker to whisker with the aggressor and enforcing the rules. That's what is meant by a Lt. He is like the eldest child helping me manage the myriad others. I still have to set rules and enforce them, but usually he doesn't have them be broke. 


The great thing about immersion and part of the very important reason this thread has comments on it is it is almost like you make it up as you go. We can tell you what we've done, we can tell you the basic "sit and interact", but once you leave the computer and go to reality the rat and you are in control. If your rat isn't really feeling the group activities and would much rather explore your strange tiny human teeth, you can bet your going to get some rodentistry done. If you are unable to convince the rat to chase your fingers, you'll be clever enough to try something new that we haven't.

Good luck!


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## TatsuKitty

Had the best moment today! I was working with the girls and going them treats and pocky let me stroke her forehead while she was eating! An then I tried scritching her back and noticed that she wasn't skittish, she was playing! She feinted back and forth for a bit and did a couple little boxing moves and then darted in an out of her house with my hand tickling her every time she came out and then she just sat and let me give her skritches for a bit!


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## Rat Daddy

That's exactly how it works, rats are really very smart and thinking animals... you keep engaging them and they understand you want to be their friend, sure they like treats, but they also really fall in love with you even when you aren't holding something tasty...

And she told you she trusts you and wants to be your friend... and you understood her just like you are beginning to understand you... Every day it just keeps getting better as your rat becomes more attached to you and more competent around you and you learn to understand her better.

Immersion theory is based on humans and rats bonding and understanding each other on multiple levels, that's why it works so fast and so well... You aren't operand conditioning a simple animal with rewards or punishment... you are communicating with another intelligent and emotional being... She doesn't trust you because you bring treats, she takes treats from you because she trusts you. It's the touch, the play and the soft voice that builds the real relationship... That said rats and humans both still like treats... so don't forget the goodies, you aren't buying love, but you are making a friend happy.


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## pookycb

I have a question. Still doing some immersion with my boys. I think we have made pretty good progress so far. In the beginning they would run from being pet and picked up. They now let me pet them when they are out and won't run when I put my hand in to pet them in their cage. When we go into the bathroom they still like to run along the perimeter but will come over to be and crawl on my legs and hands. Today they hid behind my back when they heard a loud noise (which I took as a good thing because I was their safety). But then when I decided they shouldn't hide anymore I moved away and I guess I scared them and they hid under the little nook under the bathroom cupboard. I lay on my belly and put my face close to them and just kept saying not to be scared. Eventually the one came out and continued to explore and cone near me. The other one wouldn't come out. I eventually grabbed him and just held him close to me and he'd keep squirming and I'd keep picking him up. I did this also with his brother even though he would leave the nook on his own he would always go back to his brother. My question is: is this what I should do? Just keep picking them up even when they squirm away? And if they hide in the nook under the cupboard I should force them out?


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## Rat Daddy

Of course you should always be trying to engage your rats during immersion... There's nothing gained by sitting in opposite corners of the room. It's OK if they do some exploring on their own, it shows that they are building confidence outside their cage. So some exploring is to be encouraged and you can explore along with them and keep talking to them and reassuring them as they go so you are still engaged. A certain amount of moderation is good with everything you do.

(The object of the exercise is not to overwhelm your rats by restraining them for 4 hours and it isn't to watch them play for 4 hours on their own either. Absolute extremes are never right.)

Still, there's something in the way you used the word 'force' that makes me feel just a little bit uncomfortable... 

Oddly a lot has to do with mindset... Our rats don't seem to like it when I restrain them and will make every effort to pull away and keep moving under their own power.... they are girls, so for the most part they are late for something else they just have to do, but my daughter can flip them on their backs and cradle them in her arms, and manhandle them like rag dolls and they just go limp and play along for however long she wants. Frankly, it looks like rat abuse of the worst kind, but when she puts them down they run right back to her for more...

I don't know how rats can tell the difference between play and manhandling otherwise, but they can... Somehow they like to play, even when you are controlling their activity, but they tend to resist "restraint".

One of the rats in the photo below is part wild, and actually lived outdoors for 5 months, she tore up my neighbor's hand and even bit me once... She had a quick and vicious temper...


Can you tell which one?








Most likely not...

Somehow rats know when you are being playful and they seem to enjoy it. I'm thinking that posing for the photo in that position might not have been their first choice, but they aren't objecting either. They aren't being "forced" because they aren't resisting.

So, I'd say if you are bringing your rats out from under the furniture for play and snuggles and treats then you are right on target... You are engaging them in a fun activity and bonding and they will learn to appreciate you more for it. If you are forcing them just so you can restrain them, they are going to struggle and resist you which isn't good.

I might add that rats really understand us better than we often realize, as soon as I start typing on my keyboard, our current shoulder rat walks away, she somehow realizes I'm busy and not playing and she's gone. If I'm sleeping she usually leaves me alone, but when I wake up she's right there climbing all over me... She's taking subtle cues from whatever I'm doing to decide how she should approach me or not. 

This is one of those things that's just hard to put into words... but if you feel like you are being too forceful and controlling you very well might be, if you feel like you are engaging them in playful activity you most likely are... Sometimes the difference is very subtle... kind of like a loving hug, a friendly hug an insincere hug and a creepy hug, they might not look too different in a photo, but for the most part you can tell which is which without watching the slow motion replay...

I hope that makes sense.


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## pookycb

Rat Daddy said:


> Of course you should always be trying to engage your rats during immersion... There's nothing gained by sitting in opposite corners of the room. It's OK if they do some exploring on their own, it shows that they are building confidence outside their cage. So some exploring is to be encouraged and you can explore along with them and keep talking to them and reassuring them as they go so you are still engaged. A certain amount of moderation is good with everything you do.(The object of the exercise is not to overwhelm your rats by restraining them for 4 hours and it isn't to watch them play for 4 hours on their own either. Absolute extremes are never right.)Still, there's something in the way you used the word 'force' that makes me feel just a little bit uncomfortable... Oddly a lot has to do with mindset... Our rats don't seem to like it when I restrain them and will make every effort to pull away and keep moving under their own power.... they are girls, so for the most part they are late for something else they just have to do, but my daughter can flip them on their backs and cradle them in her arms, and manhandle them like rag dolls and they just go limp and play along for however long she wants. Frankly, it looks like rat abuse of the worst kind, but when she puts them down they run right back to her for more...I don't know how rats can tell the difference between play and manhandling otherwise, but they can... Somehow they like to play, even when you are controlling their activity, but they tend to resist "restraint".One of the rats in the photo below is part wild, and actually lived outdoors for 5 months, she tore up my neighbor's hand and even bit me once... She had a quick and vicious temper...Can you tell which one?
> View attachment 122018
> Most likely not...Somehow rats know when you are being playful and they seem to enjoy it. I'm thinking that posing for the photo in that position might not have been their first choice, but they aren't objecting either. They aren't being "forced" because they aren't resisting.So, I'd say if you are bringing your rats out from under the furniture for play and snuggles and treats then you are right on target... You are engaging them in a fun activity and bonding and they will learn to appreciate you more for it. If you are forcing them just so you can restrain them, they are going to struggle and resist you which isn't good.I might add that rats really understand us better than we often realize, as soon as I start typing on my keyboard, our current shoulder rat walks away, she somehow realizes I'm busy and not playing and she's gone. If I'm sleeping she usually leaves me alone, but when I wake up she's right there climbing all over me... She's taking subtle cues from whatever I'm doing to decide how she should approach me or not. This is one of those things that's just hard to put into words... but if you feel like you are being too forceful and controlling you very well might be, if you feel like you are engaging them in playful activity you most likely are... Sometimes the difference is very subtle... kind of like a loving hug, a friendly hug an insincere hug and a creepy hug, they might not look too different in a photo, but for the most part you can tell which is which without watching the slow motion replay...I hope that makes sense.


Thank you ratdaddy Force may hav been the wrong wording as I do not restrain them. Every time I took them out from under the cupboard I'd hold them close to me and cuddle and talk to them gently. They allowed me to hold them like that for a while and then would squirm and crawl back to the floor. I would allow them to explore and they would come back to me and crawl on my legs but they did like to retreat under the cupboard.


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## Rat Daddy

Playing and retreating is a normal behavior for many well socialized rats. Our shoulder rat Max does it all the time. She will play with us and then scurry back under the furniture and then poke her nose out and climb all over us again and then she'll dash for cover... I like to swat at her while she dashes off to make it feel like more of an authentic chase for her, naturally I miss her every time, but she seems to enjoy the thrill of being chased.. and she scurries like she's got **** hounds after her. It's quite a lot of fun for us too. I suppose having no real predators to chase her she just likes to pretend. 

With new rats it can also be a matter of cumulative stress... The longer your rat is out from safety the higher it's stress level builds up and at some point it needs to run for cover and de-stress for it's next foray out to you. We've seen this with some rats we trained outdoors; where they will suddenly lose their composure and run under something nearby for a few minutes, then come out as if everything is normal... In rats stress builds up like a clock spring (do people still have wind up clocks?) they are perfectly fine until the spring gets too tight and needs to unwind. A few minutes of safety and the rat is back to it's normal playful self for almost the same amount of time as before. Some rats we have worked with can play for 15 to 30 minutes and then run to hide for another 5 to 45 minutes after which they will come out as if nothing ever happened and keep playing and exploring.... If you work with a rat long enough you can see the signs of stress building and can predict when he or she is going to lose his or her cool before it happens. I think this is a genetic adaptation to keep rats from getting too comfortable out in the open, kind of like a timer... And I've seen it in wild mice too. In college we had a wild mouse that was quite used to us and would clean food scraps off our floor and counters... He or she would come right out and eat popcorn off the floor after a party, but every few minutes he or she would dash back to his or her hole as if being chased, then slink back out and resume the clean up. Over the course of the night the entire carpet was cleaned and left crumbless, the mouse had no problem with us sitting right there watching her and talking while she was working... but over the course of the night I'm guessing she made at least a hundred frantic retreats without any cause we could find... again, fun to watch and nothing for you to worry about.

I realize that it's hard to get wording right in a post, what you intend to say and what I gather depends on our frame of mind while we type and read. "Force" is one of those red flag words. With normal rats, immersion should always be about play... perhaps perseverance pays off but when you feel you are forcing something that isn't broken you are usually pushing or pulling too hard in general. But it sounds like you are doing everything right.


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## pookycb

Thanks ratdaddy. I never force my animals to do anything and as I sit and type this reply my boys are happily napping in my hoodie pouch so I guess they aren't scared of me as the retreating under the cupboard made me feel. So I guess I am making progress even though it sometimes doesn't feel like that. I don't know when they will come out of my hoodie pouch lol. But so far this session is going well with them taking Cheerios from my hand (although they didn't eat them) and even some gentle nipping and licking on my hand. So I am pleased with that.


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## Rat Daddy

Sometimes we don't think things like napping on us is progress, but when you really think about it... you are gigantic and vastly powerful compared to a rat. It's more extreme than if you were in a room with a full grown grizzly bear. Most likely the last thing you would think about is snuggling up to the bear if you found yourself in a room with one. Feeling safe enough to snuggle with the grizzly would be a major feat on your part and no small trick for the bear to make you feel confident enough to actually sleep on him.

This really is a major accomplishment in the bonding process even though not particularly exciting.

Advertisers have found that modern humans actually get bored with TV commercials that last longer than 15 seconds. We live in a pretty faced paced world, we react fast and compared to our predecessors who would plant in spring and harvest in fall to make bread in winter our lives are in warp speed.

Socialization often took weeks before immersion, now it's fast forwarded into days or even hours... it's easy to forget that a little patience still goes a long way towards riding out the minor setbacks. 

From what I'm reading you are doing great and you are right on target towards name training and basic commands after you finish socialization. But there's no rush... one step at a time, even if a few steps seem to be in the wrong direction, it's perfectly OK... immersion is a process, or somewhat of a journey you and your new rats take together, it's one of those things that just works because it does. Since the first humans formed tribes and the first rats formed packs they engaged each other, they slept together and they bonded to one another, it's in our DNA and in your rat's DNA to form strong permanent relationships. Immersion just facilitates what nature already gave us. 

I think you are well on your way to sharing the special relationship with your rats that makes rat training and handling one of the most rewarding friendship experiences humans can have with animals of any size. Keep up the great work or rather just have fun with your rats.

Best luck.


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## pookycb

Here are some photos I managed to take of the boys. I think we had great success!


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## Rat Daddy

Not so long ago, I got to live with and learn from a truly amazing rat... Fuzzy Rat taught me that rats and humans could develop a truly special bond and how just about anyone could achieve the same for themselves and their own special rats. One might think that such novel theories should come from years of research with hundreds of rats, but no, it was one very determined rat working very hard and reaching out to communicate to one human... and immersion and immersion theory were born. 

We had a truly wonderful life together, one I wish for you and your little guys too... And I think from the pics you are well on your way to getting there. Soon they will know their names and be housebroken and you will teach them commands and all kinds of things and they will enrich your life in return. Cherish every moment you can share together, a rats life is so short you don't want to miss out on a minute of the fun and love they will unconditionally bring you. 

I'm gratified your off to such a good start.

Best luck and keep us posted.


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## ratty_milkshake

So we did some more immersion (Bath Bonding) last night. And there was loads of preening going on. It so amazing when you learn that it means they are thinking. I was like staring at them in amazement everytime they would start washing themselves  Milkshake would sit in a corner, start preening and then start climbing on me. One moment she seems skittish then after the preening she is more confident! It blows my mind!

We were all just chilling in the bath, them running around, me petting, talking and lightly wrestling with them when *something happened that never has before when i've taken them out* - Seun started preening Milkshake. I have never seen this happen outside the cage. It somehow felt like i was watching a very intimate moment - it was very loving and gentle. They then went on roaming around the bath and me for a while. They walk along the edges of the bath and sniff everything. T*HEN another thing happned that never has outside the cage* - Seun laid down on the ledge of the bath next to my head and fell asleep! I was like HOLY CRAP YAY!!!!!!! Milkshake then continued to preen him as gently and lovingly as he did with her.

I really feel like this is great progress! Surely when they preen each other that means they are comfortable with me - not to mention the sleeping!


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## Rat Daddy

Humans have thinking behaviors too... some guys sit quietly in the dark for hours, while some ladies talk their way through important decisions with their friends... for the most part rats preen while making life choices. 

Fuzzy Rat was a deep thinker. She stopped everywhere she was and preened and after a deep preen would come back with a totally different and novel approach to the problem at hand... It was sort of funny, because she wasn't really a very well groomed rat despite all of the preening. Unlike Fuzzy Rat, Max just tends to get many things right on the first try, but she's not much of a thinker. She just kind of blunders her way through life and leaves hard problems for someone else to solve. She has a happy go lucky personality and does exactly what she wants when the mood strikes her.

I locked Max out of the cage the other day, she tried to get in and realized she was locked out, she came over and glared at me accusingly for a moment and moved on to something else to do... Fuzzy Rat would have freaked out and been all over me until I opened the cage door. If it took all day and all night she would never have let me get away with locking her out of her cage. And she would have run back and forth from me to the cage first, then she would have preened, then she would have jumped on my feet, then preened, then she would have crawled up on my neck and scratched, then preened, then she would have shredded some papers on my desk, then preened, then finally she would have cut my phone wires and got tossed back into her cage... 

That uncompromising determination is what got me to notice her and learn to understand her. When your rat walks right up to you and snips your headphone cord when you are listening to music and stands there staring you in the eyes, she's got your attention. And that was an actual event, and when I continued to ignore her and I got my soldering iron out to fix the headphone wires, she snipped off the plug and ran away with it... She wasn't going to be ignored or misunderstood, no matter what it took.

Now yesterday when I got my coat and keys Max was standing at the door, we couldn't take her and had to put her inside and she kept running for the door, so if there is something she really wants she will insist too, but compared to Fuzzy Rat she's downright laid back and easy to overlook.

I don't think one rat is necessarily less intelligent than another, just some rats put more effort into solving problems than others do. It's more personality than IQ. But yes, when you see the preen, and watch your rat shift gears or do a 180 degree turnaround after coming out of a preen, it's like watching learning happening, it's rather amazing.

By the way, way back in college, preening was considered zero sum stress behavior... it was taught to us that when rats don't know what else to do and are under stress they preen out of fear and instinct... something to do when there is nothing else to do... As behavioral psychologists couldn't comprehend that rats were actually thinking, stress preening was considered a peculiar mal-adaptive behavior that had no meaning... It's only when you can permit yourself the possibility that rats can really think through complex problems and observe the way they change the way they approach the world afterwards that it all begins to make sense. And I've seen this behavior, many times when Fuzzy Rat wasn't stressed or fearful, just working out a complicated problem.

Immersion theory is based on a different way of seeing rats. Once you open your mind to the idea that they are intelligent, emotional and can and do actually try to communicate with you... EVERYTHING changes... Bonding takes hours not weeks, you form a much deeper relationship with an actual friend and you and your rats actually become a family...

To a behaviorist who is stuck on reinforcement... you are just a vending machine your rats like to come to for goodies... once you drink the Kool-Aid and walk through the mirror, the most remarkable things are possible and actually happen. People who do immersion, usually report having the most amazing rats afterwards... it's all about the mindset... From the fertile mind of Fuzzy Rat understanding me and making me understand and fall in love with her, to me sharing immersion with you, to you opening your heart and mind to your rats to them falling in love with you... It's so easy a rat came up with it.

And that's why it works, and why I enjoy reading about all of the successful immersions so much. I was blessed to know the real life Fuzzy Rat, who died with hundreds of friends and now your rats are blessed to have you and you them. Knowing that you are off to such an auspicious start really makes my day.

Best luck and keep us posted on the amazing adventures you and your rats undertake in the bath tub or at the park... the best is yet ahead.


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## Silverdraconian

Hey,I've recently found this site, and have been reading a lot about immersion.. I want to be closer to my two rats Isaac and Tarzan,and wondered if immersion is needed or desired for two rats that already sleep on me, snuggle with me, and run to me for protection..also upset because I want to get them to play together, but when I tried letting them play,the "dominance" fighting was horrid to hear..I couldn't stand it. The fourth time I tried letting them mingle, Tarzan bit Isaac's toe, and it ended up bleeding and swollen for three weeks. I wondered if lack of immersion and my recent findings that I'm apparently not the alpha contributed to this.


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## Rat Daddy

I'd have to say you sound like your past immersion socialization at this point. And being the alpha to two otherwise good rats is pretty much being their parent, so it doesn't sound like that's the big issue as they apparently seem to enjoy being with you... I'm somewhat confused about them fighting when they get together. Am I right to assume that they are living in different cages? If so why? And if they are living in different cages, I'm thinking we are talking about introductions. 

The object of the exercise is to get your rats to live together harmoniously. Basically, you can go back to the immersion area and supervise the introductions very much hands on so no one gets too badly hurt... Rats are going to fight when they meet, but your influence and control should minimize the injuries and once they get through the combat phase of establishing a pack order under your supervision you should be able to move everyone into the same cage.

Best luck.


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## Silverdraconian

They are in different cages.. Introduction guides I read elsewhere said never just come home and put them together, so we got two cages.They do love ME...ride on my shoulder, and allowed free roam on my desk. Once, we let them fight it out..afterwords isaac, the more dominant rat, just ignored Tarzan like he didn't exist... Tarzan sat there,statue-like,and just whimper-squeaked when I tried to touch him.


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## Rat Daddy

Rats need to fight it out a bit, but you can supervise it and show your rats you want them to get along part of being the alpha is deciding who joins your pack. In a rat pack once the alpha accepts a new member the other rats pretty much have to go along, sure there are still more minor fights for status, but the worst is over.... Subordinates don't get to beat up the newcomer because the alpha rat is there to keep order. Once your rats fight it out (and you win by exercising proper control), and they are playing or at least getting along, they go into the same cage together. Intro's over... (but I stay close for a few hours just in case)

I handle intros like I do immersions, a long session that might start out rough, but ends in play until everyone falls into a single heap. The rats wake up snuggled into a single ball and they may not be sure how they got there but it feels good so they usually just go with it. During the session, I'll let basic boxing and chasing go unchecked, but if it gets more heated, I cut in between and forcefully break up the engagement if necessary so that both rats know I'm not putting up with too much aggression. If you don't want to put your hands in between, you can literally toss in a towel. Being an alpha isn't being a bully or inspiring fear, but it can mean exercising leadership and control.

Yup, and I've read those guides too and I tried keeping rats in separate cages etc... and after a while they were clawing at the bars trying to get at each other. The longer they saw their potential enemy the angrier they got. Mostly these are older guides... Before immersion it took rats weeks to get to know you and for you to bond with them, so in a round about way it was a good idea for you to bond with your rats first. But now with immersion you can bond with your rats in a matter of hours and move right on through introductions.

It's important to understand that immersion and introductions have been taking place in nature since the dawn of the rat species, although I doubt it was a daily event... Rats occasionally leave or get separated from their packs and join others. I can't see this process taking weeks while they snarl at each other from a distance or separated by some freak of geography. New rats walk in, get jumped into the pack gangland style and in a matter of hours it's over... The pack has a new member and the lost rat has a pack and everybody snuggles up together. 

Humans devised methods that took weeks or even longer to bond with their rats and it follows that it was in fact natural for humans to bond with their rats before doing intros so intros took weeks too. 

Immersion theory is based on communication and reaching milestones as quickly as possible, not on an artificial timeline.

Fuzzy Rat the rat co-founder of immersion demonstrated the classiest introduction ever... 15 minutes soup to nuts. We did the immersion on the lower landing of our stair case and Fuzzy Rat sat quietly on a higher stair for over two hours while we played with Amelia. Once Amelia was a bit tired and relaxed and playing with us, Fuzzy Rat hopped down the steps and boxed with Amelia for a few minutes (I might have intervened once) then she showed Amelia her broadside and Amelia tapped her with a single paw and Fuzzy Rat rolled over like a tipped cow, onto her back. Amelia instinctively started grooming Fuzzy Rat's belly and when Fuzzy Rat rolled back over Amelia followed Fuzzy Rat around like a little puppy. My 6 year old daughter and I continued to play with the rats until my daughter fell asleep on the floor and I put the rats together in the same cage and everyone slept peacefully pretty much through the next day... The immersion session had started at around 10 PM and ended at around 5 AM. With the exception of less than 10 minutes of boxing it was a just rats and humans romping around with each other... Fuzzy Rat, being the most brilliant rat I've ever know, knew she had to put up some kind of a fight for the sake of tradition, but she was old and Amelia was young and very large and very fit and Fuzzy Rat knew she wasn't going to win any real fight, so she played the game, rolled over and moved on... And by the way... Fuzzy Rat stole Amelia's food at every occasion she could and as soon as Amelia got upset, she would just roll onto her back and get groomed. Then she would prance off with Amelia's food while Amelia stood there trying to figure out what happened. 

So yes, an actual rat did her own introductions without bloodshed in under 15 minutes. I'm not going to suggest your experience will look like ours, as we've had intros that took over an hour and got a bit out of control with other rats. Still, there are no set timetables involved, it's all about communication and reaching milestones. Rats don't wear watches, they live in the now... it's get it on, get it done and move on to nap time.


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## Silverdraconian

Thank you for the information.. I'll try putting them together again tomorrow, and try to resist splitting them up at the first squeak..it just bothers me how Tarzan is a whimpering wreck after being bit on the back over and over, then ignored..hopefully if enough time passes they'll cuddle, not one ignore one cower.


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## Rat Daddy

Silverdraconian,

Remember, be hands on don't let Tarzan get beat up. And try to lead Isaac to play with each other and with you... You are the alpha rat in the room and you can guide and shape the activity, keep a towel handy and if you are afraid bring oven mitts... But don't be a spectator. Yes the rats will work things out for themselves... but it's your pack and you participate too. Isaac will get that you are in charge and you have accepted Tarzan into your pack and he will respect that and hopefully treat Tarzan as a pack member, and Tarzan will feel protected by you and be more confident.

Immersion theory is about building a rat family unit around you as a participant, not as an observer. You are the hub of the wheel and you set the direction. 

So, it's a kind of balance between letting the rats establish their place in your pack and you setting the rules... Hands on, but not over-controlling. Think of it like a dance, someone has to lead, but shouldn't drag his partner around the floor either. You will be making a lot of fast decisions on the fly, so clear your mind... set your goal to "We are going to become a family and learn to play together and no one is getting hurt today" and then with that in the back of your head react and respond to precisely what's happening in front of you... forget everything else and stay in the moment and you will instinctively make the right calls as you go along. Rats have been doing and surviving intros for thousands of years... your job is to make it go as smoothly as possible.

Best luck.


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## Silverdraconian

Well no one got "beat up" and now they are in the same cage.. However, isaac seems to be desperately trying to snuggle with Tarzan.. Who acts like he's being killed every time Isaac slightly touches him.


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## Silverdraconian

Or not..mom watched them,and noticed Isaac would roll over all submissive... then every once in a while go over and bite Tarzan. Tarzan has been clinging to the bars for hours..same thing over and over. Isaac nearby,rolled over, then runs over,bites, and goes back to being rolled over. I thought he was just trying to lick,but apparently he's biting.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, the problem is with Tarzan not Isaac the way I read this. Isaac is trying to engage Tarzan and he expects Tarzan to groom his belly. Tarzan for some reason isn't getting with the program. This is of course going to upset Isaac and he's going to get more insistent out of frustration.

Not having a complete history on a rat means you don't know how or why it's screwed up or who did it. When Isaac rolls over, Tarzan should go over and preen his belly, then the two rats can be friends. And that should end the introductions. Tarzan's failure to respond appropriately is a real problem. This is basic rat communication and is hard wired into every rat. "I roll over and you preen me." It likely took some real trauma to mess up Tarzan to the point he isn't responding to such a basic rat interaction...

Now how to fix it? 

One might assume that both Isaac and Tarzan are rats, and Isaac should know how to get through to Tarzan so you stay hands off and let Isaac do his thing until Tarzan understands him... or unfortunately until Isaac loses his cool and hurts Tarzan.

Or you can bring both rats out of the cage and try to snuggle with them together on top of yourself. Maybe I'd bring Tarzan out first and calm him down and get him to be relaxed then bring Isaac into the mix and try and get them together as much as possible so that Tarzan can see that Isaac isn't actually attacking him and feel protected by you... Certainly if Isaac gets too pushy you can gently discourage his enthusiasm a little...

I'm going to be entirely honest, we've seen super fearful rats in immersion, but that's fear of humans, not other rats, or at least that's been the assumption all along. These rats take quite a bit of effort to reach, using repeated gentle engagement over time, sort of what Isaac is trying to do. Poke to engage, then roll over to invite Tarzan for a belly preen and showing him he's on his back and not going to hurt him... That actually seems like Isaac is really trying very hard to get through to Tarzan. I can't say how often this happens between rats, I haven't seen it personally, I think you have two options... let Isaac try and get through to Tarzan or try and get hands on to facilitate the introduction. I'd watch to make sure Isaac doesn't get too frustrated and hurt Tarzan. The last option would be to separate the rats and try and build Tarzan's confidence over time and then try introductions after Tarzan is more emotionally stable. So I suppose there are three options... The right option depends on just how messed up Tarzan is. 

I might add you did a very nice job of observing and describing the situation. Most people would have only mentioned Isaac being aggressive and Tarzan being afraid and would have missed how Isaac is trying to offer Tarzan the opportunity to be his friend... and Isaac would be taking the blame now instead of it looking like Tarzan is failing to reply appropriately. Knowing what's going wrong, doesn't fix the problem, but it's a start in the right direction. Depending on how badly screwed up Tarzan is, and how patient Isaac is, this should still work well in the end, rats are pretty smart after all. But when we adopt rats, they come with luggage and we have to deal with problems we didn't create. Maybe having defined the problem someone else who has seen this might chime in with what they tried and how it worked. 

Best luck and keep us posted.


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## Silverdraconian

I will try what you said, thank you..Do you think maybe before we got him, Tarzan might have been severely injured or viciously attacked by another rat, hence the wild fear of Isaac? even the first time they met, almost a year ago, before the initial fighting even began, Tarzan just saw Isaac a few inches away(where we put them) and he ran and jumped up to my shoulder, trying to hide on mommy away from isaac.


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## Rat Daddy

That's as good an explanation as any. When Amelia first saw Max as a pup, she gave her a terrible bite, the next time they met, a month later Max pounced on Amelia and bit her back. They eventually worked it out, but Max certainly didn't forget what happened to her as a pup... Accidents happen and Tarzan might have been put in with the wrong rat before you got him... There's really no way to tell. Other than to say if Isaac is nudging Tarzan and rolling over for him, I can't think of what else he can do to show good will...

Best luck


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## CJMoore

How old does my new rat (4 to 5 weeks) need to be before I introduce her to my adults (9 months)?


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## CJMoore

Nevermind. I found the answer - 8 weeks. I guess I will have to hold her a lot for the next month so she doesn't get lonely.


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## TatsuKitty

I have a question... my girl Pocky is SUPER food oriented. Doesn't matter what kinda treat, she usually wants it. The only thing I have is these apple treats that she's just not a fan of. So, immersion with here was pretty easy. She learned immediately that I was where she got good stuff. She's not cuddly, I don't think she'll ever be; she's just too excited, but she loves to climb all over me and poke in my ears and my hair, so I'm pleased as punch. 
Mochi is really not food motivated at all. She will take treats, but they have to be really specific and she usually only wants one. I know she likes cherry yogies and strawberry, but even those aren't enough that she wants to come and get them from me when she's out of the cage. She gets out every day, same as pocky but she NEVER wants to leave the cage unless it's to hide somewhere...


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## pookycb

Rat Daddy said:


> Not so long ago, I got to live with and learn from a truly amazing rat... Fuzzy Rat taught me that rats and humans could develop a truly special bond and how just about anyone could achieve the same for themselves and their own special rats. One might think that such novel theories should come from years of research with hundreds of rats, but no, it was one very determined rat working very hard and reaching out to communicate to one human... and immersion and immersion theory were born.
> 
> We had a truly wonderful life together, one I wish for you and your little guys too... And I think from the pics you are well on your way to getting there. Soon they will know their names and be housebroken and you will teach them commands and all kinds of things and they will enrich your life in return. Cherish every moment you can share together, a rats life is so short you don't want to miss out on a minute of the fun and love they will unconditionally bring you.
> 
> I'm gratified your off to such a good start.
> 
> Best luck and keep us posted.


I thought I'd give an update about my boys. Denny has really come out of his shell and is a super daredevil and will try to explore new places and jump on things. He also loves to come up to me and climb on me and groom me. The other day he was rearranging my hair-do for me. Denny is also becoming a good little shoulder rat!








Shaun is also very friendly and will lick my hands and run to me but he likes to do things on his own time. He is also quite a lazy guy and likes to sleep when they are free ranging sometimes I have to really encourage him to come over and play.








Another update, I got a third little guy. And he is now been introduced to Denny and Shaun and they love their new little brother. Denny at first showed the new guy that he's incharge so I stepped in and now Denny loves the new baby and the three of them all sleep together and preen each other and sometimes they will all groom me ;D

Here's a photo of the new baby (I named him Ricky) meeting his new brothers for the first time






and they are living happily together in their cage now


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## Rat Daddy

Pookycb,

I love the photos, you have developed the perfect human lead rat pack. Each rat has his own personality, but they are a family with you as the mom. It's actually easy to feel the love and the closeness just by reading your words and seeing the pics. It's all based on communication between intelligent and emotional beings and a trust based on understanding. One truly remarkable rat, showed me the way of understanding and communication as the basis of love, mutual respect, leadership and trust. I suppose it seems strange at first, with rats being so small, but once you open your mind and your heart your rats will too. Once you are the mom, you set the rules and intros even go smoother. I think I could write another 10,000 words on the topic, but your photos explain it best. 

We were blessed to know and live with the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat. Her work on earth done, she is sorely missed, her friend Amelia passed away last week too... but it brings me great joy to see the lessons from her life still bring mixed rat and human families together. You are on the right path to being an amazing rat mom and raising amazing rats of your own.. Thank you for sharing your family with us, it really brings me great joy to see the legacy live on...

TatsuKitty,

Some rats aren't motivated by food. And in fact, some girls are much more independent than some boys. It's just in their nature to be the explorers and care givers and some just hate to be pampered. Even Fuzzy Rat preferred to groom me than to have me groom her. She explored, given every opportunity and outside she would lead us around rather than follow when she knew the terrain. 

That said... rats that aren't food motivated are still play motivated. You don't have to be a vending machine to be loved, in fact few people or rats actually ever fall in love with vending machines... I might add that it's uncommon for many rats to ever share their food with each other and yet they build strong pack/family units even when they will steal food from one another. It really is the playful interaction and the understanding that works with rats that aren't food motivated. You will find that once Mochi bonds with you better she'll be more likely to take food from you too.... yes... take food and run off with it, but still be more receptive to treats as a whole... This kind of rat would rather take food from a trusted friend than a stranger or competitor.

Amelia, was Fuzzy Rat's hand picked friend. They were nothing alike. After Fuzzy Rat passed away, Amelia spent most of her time living a pretty solitary life. Sure she came out to play and get occasional skritches and hugs, but for the most part she was pretty reclusive. Which was OK because we had Fuzzy Rat and then Max to play and work with. A few weeks ago she started greeting me every morning when she got up and hanging out in my lap more, then she went into congestive heart failure for 5 days, and she clung on to me for dear life, when I tried to put her in her cage she would lunge at the bars between seizures until we picked her up and then relax in our arms or rest next to us where she could see us... I lay on the floor next to her and she struggled to climb up on me with every ounce of energy she had left, I cupped my hand over her so she wouldn't fall off, and she went quiet and soft and was gone... Unlike her amazing roommate Fuzzy Rat, Amelia was pretty much what you might expect from a girl rat that had been neglected for the first 7 months of her life, she was never a true shoulder rat, she never really got over her abuse and wanted to be cuddly, she came out for affection almost every day and would sometimes visit me when I slept, but 10 to 15 minutes was her limit. She took very good care of Fuzzy Rat when Fuzzy Rat got old and sick, and she sometimes hung out with Max, she was a very good girl... But up until the time she got sick and needed us, we really didn't feel much love from her. Over 5 days of holding her in my arms, letting her nap next to me and sleep in my lap, I got to understand and appreciate the bond and love she felt towards us. I suppose, staying out of our way, was the way she showed her love. Lurking in the shadows near us was her idea of what we wanted... maybe it was just her nature to be independent... and what she needed... I don't know... but thankfully we had 5 days together to clear up any misunderstandings. It was a difficult and a rewarding time we shared at the end.

So don't give up on Mochi, Mochi will love you or already does. Try to build bonds with play and affection rather than treats and try to encourage interaction as much as possible. Show her your love physically.

Max, our current true shoulder rat, would rather starve to death than compromise her integrity by taking a treat as a bribe. But when my daughter walks in, she's all over her, my daughter is 8 years old and very playful and interactive which Max loves, I give Max her meals and her treats, and sometimes I get treated like a vending machine (or a parent) while my daughter get's to be Max's playmate. And this has been true with every rat we've owned. 

You would think that with the great relationship I shared with Fuzzy Rat, she was my rat, but that was never the case... She might have spent all day napping on my desk, but the moment my daughter came home from school all I saw was tail... She came to me when she wanted something, or for protection or to keep her company, but she dove into a lake to swim after my daughter and chased her around the playground... That's the kind of loyalty and love treats can't buy and rat dads don't get... So, just stick with play and affection and you will get the most out of Mochi, no matter what her limits are.

Best luck.


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## brundlefly

I've read through this whole thread and it's amazing. I always would put my rats in their cage, let them settle down, then try. I'm getting a batch of baby rats next week when they're old enough to go home. Since i'm getting more than two most likely, do i do immersion with all of them at once? Just kinda sit there and scritch and handle all of them? Thank you!


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## Kinsey

Love to see a thread with such solid advice on handling.

I like to think I'm good with my rats, they seem to get me and I understand them pretty well. I have had rats like your Amelia. I had Rosebud, who was very aloof and energetic, but would always stop for kisses and grooming in between causing trouble. She didn't die quickly, cancer ate her up, and for about two weeks she slept in my bed and was my constant companion- like your girl she really made it clear how she felt about me as her family, even though she showed it in a weird way her entire life.


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## Rat Daddy

Brundlefly,

The only hard and fast rule is that biting rats are immersed individually... always, it's just a matter of safety.

As to group immersion, this depends on you first. If you multi-task well you can do immersion with a group of rats, it might take longer, because you still have to bond with everybody, so you have to time share yourself and distribute your focus. On the other hand, some people are best one on one and multiple rats will be a real distraction so that no one gets the special treatment they need. You can start with one and bring the other's in or you can start with everyone and if it gets too crazy or you find you can't address everyone's needs break it down into one on one sessions. 

No matter how you approach your immersion sessions, the theory never changes, but the actual practice has to play to your strengths and of course the personalities of the rats involved too. Four well adjusted young rat pups might make a group immersion lots of fun. Two abused and fearful rats at the same time might be too many in the same room at the same time to effectively draw them out and build a bond of trust. So the rats you are working with matter too... but you will only know what you are really dealing with when you get down on the floor with them. 

Remember immersion is about communication, which means being flexible and responding to your rat's needs. I know some folks like to play by sheet music, but immersion is more like dueling banjos where what you do depends on what your rat does. It's a dialogue, like a conversation rather than a prepared speech.


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## Rat Daddy

Kinsey,

No one was more surprised than me when Amelia wouldn't let go of me... Just when you think you know everything about your rats they throw you a curve ball. I suppose I knew Amelia loved us somewhere down deep, but in those final days I realized just how much... And now I wonder what kept her from showing that affection all her life... 

Strangely makes you wonder if people who aren't affectionate have the same problem...


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## TatsuKitty

SHe does take foodbut she doesn't really explore. That's what I'm worried about. She's SO slow and very tentative and furtive. She tends to stay in the cage or on top of it if I make her come out. She squeaks in fear when I move too fast. If I make a sound, she runs away... She did climb up on the bed with me the other day but she was shaking with fear. :< it breaks my heart! She just seems like she's on ratty slow mo, especially next to pocky who runs and jumps and sniffles. I did get a bit of grooming from Pocky tonight though! she licked all over my hand. and then seems to want very badly to be up to areas of my body that I don't really want her near!! >///<


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## Rat Daddy

Being taken from her mom too young or a childhood trauma caused her skittish behavior. She's always going to be fearful of new situations. But once she becomes comfortable with a place and certain people she will develop a limited confidence in her world and act very much like a normal rat. This will take several weeks of consistent and patient interaction to achieve.

When you change the play area or bring in new people or change something substantial in the routine, she very well might turn skittish again for a while. That's normal with these kinds of rats. The key to progress is consistency.

Our girl Amelia suffered from this problem, when we took her outside she panicked and new situations really upset her, but indoors in our home when only her family was around she was perfectly fine and you really couldn't tell she had deep seated emotional fear issues. 

Be reassuring and consistent, try to establish a schedule and stick to it so she knows what to expect every day and try to shield her from new and different experiences that will stress her. Then she will be fine. Also if you do change something, expect her to get stressed and take longer to adapt to the new situation.

Fuzzy Rat thrived on novelty and challenges. Amelia was happiest when everything was quiet and nothing was ever moved or changed... By the end of her life.... every morning at 9:30 AM she crawled out of her secret nest and came up to my foot to be put in her cage, she drank and ate, used the facilities and went back to sleep... she liked to be skritched and handled in the evening and set loose at night to patrol her home when everybody was sleeping and retire to her nest where she would shred paper and rummage about until 9:30 AM when she went back to her cage for the day... Within this routine, she was happy... Fuzzy Rat thrived on chaos and excitement, Amelia needed a quiet routine, both were truly loving and charming rats. When they were together they sort of balanced each other out.

Just be patient...


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## TatsuKitty

ok, that does make me feel a bit better. <3 she's starting to slowly drift away from the cage for a bit before running back and grooming in her little hidey spot on top. I've been working with her and found some treats that she does like, and she'll take them from me, even if she has to walk on my hand. I just want her to be happy so much!


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## Rat Daddy

Rats balance fear(stress) with their nature to explore... happiness is achieved somewhere in between. When they are preening they are thinking important rat thoughts... sometimes they are considering risks ahead or doing a post game review of what they just accomplished.

As humans we are better at predicting the future than our rats are... We're older and have more experience. You know that no one is going to pounce on your rats for exploring the room... and you know they will both have more fun playing with you than hiding in their cage... But they don't know that yet. So when you're working with a low stress tolerant rat, you coax and reassure more and pull and push gently along until you get her to see that it's safe and fun to play with you...

Experience tells me that she isn't likely ever going to fireworks shows and she will likely never enjoy entertaining human crowds, but that's OK. She will probably be fine playing in a rat safe room or even exploring your whole house in time. And she can become very affectionate with you and a select group of people she gets to know. And that's not bad at all. Having two rats is very much like having two children... Like Fuzzy Rat and Amelia... Fuzzy Rat entertained handicapped kids, went to fireworks shows, jumped in the lake to swim after kids, explored the underbrush on her own and found her way back to the house from half a mile away... She was an intrepid adventurer... Amelia liked to sleep in the closet, come out for skritches occasionally, climb to high places indoors, play with my daughter and steal stuff. She also meticulously preened Fuzzy Rat and Max's tail. She liked to be safe indoors. Each of our children and rats have different personalities and abilities... And we do best loving them for who they are. 

We tried very hard to bring Amelia out of her shell and to get her outside, but we had only very limited success. It rarely was fun for her. Mostly it was just terrifying for her to be on the ground outdoors away from cover... And when Fuzzy Rat died and we gave Amelia the opportunity to step up and be the family rat, she nearly had a nervous break down... 

I know we all have high hopes for our rats and kids, and certain rats and kids exceed all of our expectations and we become very proud of them. Sometimes we have a rat or a kid that's "special" and has limits, they sometimes seem less lovable. And sometimes it's hard to understand why they just can't make the top grades... but when you let go of your agenda and just help your rat be the best she can be you will find the same kind of rewards being with her that you get with your superstar.

This is Amelia being posed for a photo... she's frozen in place, ears peaked and near her stress limit and she's indoors sitting on a pillow on a chair...








And this is Fuzzy Rat, calmly preening in a tree, munching leaf buds and swinging in the breeze...








And this is Max at her first fireworks show and she's pretty stressed by the loud explosions and bright lights... but she's handling it all and not freaking out as much as Amelia was in the chair getting photographed...








Fuzzy Rat was a superstar diva... Max is scary smart and competent, but less of a people personality and Amelia was a shy little girl that preferred dark places, routine, and quiet and actually was distrustful of too much attention... 

Immersion will help your rats understand you and bond with you. It will help them to be the best they can be, but it can't change their basic personalities or abilities... Immersion theory was taught to me by Fuzzy Rat, and it helped Max to grow up to be a striking true shoulder rat, but with a different personality and it helped Amelia adapt to living with our family indoors, but it didn't create more Fuzzy Rat clones. 

Yesterday, we took Max to the playground and it was warm and we got mobbed by kids... This was Fuzzy Rat's element and she would have been in seventh heaven.... Max not so much, she climbed a bush and was chased around by the kids (but didn't chase them back) but she spent every free moment she had looking for the car... She found her way to the bridge and crossed the bridge and followed the guard rail all of the way back to the car... As soon as we got to the park and got home, Max was waiting at the car door to get out... Her skills are rapidly approaching Fuzzy Rat's skill set. After a while she even started giving certain kids kisses and approached a few strangers to sniff their shoes... She let one little girl pick her up and carry her around. After spending the winter indoors, she might loosen up more... and we will continue to encourage her, but we're thrilled with her progress whether she becomes a superstar or not.

It was actually funny when some people told us about another friendly rat that used to come to the playground, they recognized that it wasn't Max, but didn't remember either my daughter or myself. Work with your rats to make them the best they can be, give them challenges in accordance with their abilities and don't push them beyond their limits... Mochi may wind up a star, and Poky might not, but if you love them for who they are they will love you the same for it. And yes, they will be happy, like Fuzzy Rat was happiest surrounded by a mob and Max was happy to find the car and Amelia was happy to see the other rats go out while she stayed safely home.

Keep up the good work.


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## brundlefly

I'm not too sure if I'm doing immersion correctly. Friday I brought home two boys, and Saturday I brought back three more who were slightly older. I sat in the bathtub both nights with the new rats for a few hours, skritching and petting and following them with my fingers. I gave them breaks often but I tried pretty persistently to keep hands on. I would also pick each rat up and set them on my shoulder. Two actually decided to stay up there for a long period of time, which I take as a good sign. I also would pick one up, cup him in my hand and just rub his head and jaws. Some of them wouldn't have that, but a few did stay and I caught one of them bruxing while I did it! Am I doing this right by consistently bugging them?


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## Rat Daddy

Yes, and with that many rats, you might want to spread out onto the floor and out of the tub... A little more room can't hurt.

One of the problems with socializing rats is that you only make progress when you are in actual physical contact or otherwise interacting...

If you sit in one corner of the room and your rat sits in the opposite corner of the room for six hours nothing happens. That's six hours neither you nor your rat will ever get back. Every time you engage your rat, it's being forced to think about you.. Why are you engaging him or her? What do you want? Who are you? What are you? What are you saying? What are you doing? Every engagement gives you the opportunity to reach out and make friends with your rat and gives your rat an opportunity to contact you...

And yes, you can go overboard and be too in your face, some rats need time to process and a little space during immersion, your not trying to overwhelm your rats. But the number one mistake people make with their rats during immersion is to sit there an watch them from a distance. So I find myself encouraging them to interact with their rats more. I don't often find the case where people are too interactive with their rats to the point of overwhelming them... If that's really your concern, with normal rats your experience should feel playful to you and your rat should become inquisitive and start approaching you for attention after a while. If you see your rat becoming more and more withdrawn and it feels like you are hurting him or her, slow down a little bit and give it time to process the changes...

Overall it sounds like you are on the right track, 5 rats is a lot of rats to immerse and it's going to take a while. Each rat is going to require slightly different treatment, one will get right on board, another might be shy and slow to understand you or reach back out to you. That's entirely normal. And again, I'd try and get yourself and your rats more room to play and explore each other... And remember, you are making the calls on the fly, stay attentive to your rats and watch for signals from them for you to respond to. Don't accidentally push anyone away when they want your attention, that would send the worst message.

Keep up the good work.


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## brundlefly

You are the best, rat daddy! I'm only concerned with getting out of the tub and expanding to the entire bathroom that they'll huddle and avoid me more. In the tub there was one (Anakin) that consistently jumped up on the bathtub edge to avoid me. A few would hide under my leg sitting indian style, and some just sat on the other side of the tub grooming themselves or each other. I have noticed since reading about preening=thinking that they did it the most right after I was handling them. They don't all seem completely terrified of me, but trying to catch them in the cage is a nightmare. Do they grow out of this jumpy and flighty stage? None of them will take treats from my hand, either. I was prepared with yummy cereal during immersion but they showed no interest. I also try my best to show the jumpy rats that try to squirm out of my hand that I control the situation, not them. If they manage to wriggle free, I pick them right back up, wait until they calm down and then let them down to run about and think. Should I bring unusual objects and toys into the mix too?


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## Rat Daddy

Mostly its you getting to meet your rats... and yes with more room some will avoid you and some will approach you, but you will get a better handle on their behavior. A 5 way immersion sounds like you really don't have that much one on one time with each, which I suspected... so multitask as much as you can trying to engage everyone... but if you are making a breakthrough with one... let the others explore on their own for a while. One rat that really trusts you might even help lead the others in the right direction. Rats can teach each other.

I don't have a problem with props or toys, if they help you interact with your rats better... If they don't remove them. Immersion is a very subjective process for you and your rats. You are relying on the fact that rats naturally bond with humans once they understand you and feel understood too, but for me it's like teaching different people how to paint. No two students are going to create the same canvas. Much of what you are doing is by 'feel' so let yourself be intuitive Try and understand what your rats are telling you and what they want. Make the call if someone looks like they are ready for a hug, they most likely are, if they are thinking, let them think... if they look shy try and engage them softly, if someone wants to play harder, give them a little chase... If someone gets nippy or pushy, push back a little... If anybody gets out of line, clear the room and address them individually until they are back on plan otherwise communication not control is the objective with friendly rats during immersion. 

For the most part, rats that haven't been handled by people are skittish and jumpy. That's normal. You are the grizzly bear in the room. They don't know if they can communicate with you or if you are even capable of understanding them. They don't even realize you are trying to communicate with them. You are huge and might be dangerous. Also, unless you got all of your rats from a reputable breeder, the only time rats got pulled out of the cage... they didn't come back. Rats know that their friends have been taken away by humans. And when they got taken from their cage they never saw their homes again either... This is pretty scary stuff for a small animal. Learning that they will be coming home again after being pulled out of their cage and learning that you are their new forever parent will take a while, but it's what they need and want. They want to like you and trust you... Think if I locked you in a bathroom with a grizzly bear, you might want it to love and protect you, you most likely really want to be it's best little buddy, but it's a grizzly bear! And that alone is going to make you jumpy and skittish, worse yet if every grizzly bear you've met dragged off some of your friends or took you away from your familiar home and dropped you in another strange place.

That aside, try to have fun with all of your new rats. If you are having fun they will feel it from you and they will have fun too. 5 rats at once has rarely if ever been attempted. But you are making progress so I'd say keep going as long as you can enjoy the chaos. It may turn out to be a great pack building experience for your rats too, especially as you haven't had any in fighting with your new rats... that in itself might be worthy to note. Some folks have nightmare introductions when they bring 5 rats home and put them together, so far you don't seem to have any problems there.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5 rats take longer than one rat, but as long as you are making good progress, don't change things up too much...

Hang in there and enjoy the craziness you only get to meet your rats and build a lifelong relationship once with a new rat... in your case it's bonding times 5 which elevates the experience to an outright adventure... 

Keep me posted.


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## brundlefly

It is a lot of fun so far, and I've been taking out the ones I feel have some issues individually as well. They came from accidental litters so they were handled as far as I know. How much I really can't say. I'm starting to tell who the shy and outgoing ones are, and they're getting easier to catch and pick up. I did what you suggested and ratproofed the bathroom. I kept a box in there as well, and the three older boys hid in there while the younger ones explored and climbed my legs. Go figure. I ensured I scratched and petted every single one, and nobody tries to run away when I'm calmly petting them. I can already tell a difference in personality than from my two females, who were adult pet store purchases and are still wary of me after a lot of time put into immersion with them as well. I can't thank you enough for all your support and very detailed answers  I'm looking forward to when they're big squishy lazy boys


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## brundlefly

And to add onto the five boys not fighting, that sort of surprised me too. They came as a pair, then a group of three the next day. The pair I suspect is incredibly young (which I didn't really notice until they were brought home), and the trio are 5 weeks old. I hear a couple peeps and squeaks in the cage, but they seem to be in harmony. I notice the young pair tend to stick together moreso than with the others, but they do all share the same basket for bedtime. I also see a lot of follow the leader. My young boy Ghost was leading the two bigger boys around the outskirts of the bathroom, it was really interesting to watch. I really hope that this is a good sign and I won't have any issues in the future.


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## brundlefly

I just wanted to give a quick update. If I wasn't a believer in immersion before, I sure as heck am now! One of the older boys, Anakin, I felt was the most skittish of the bunch. He stayed as far away from me as he possibly could, and squeaked a few times when picking him up. I've had the whole group out together every day, but I've been taking him and another rat out at a time to do some serious immersion. Thirty minutes ago I had him laying in the crook of my arm, back leg cocked up, on his side sleeping. He would have stayed a lot longer, but I had to get up. I was also making great progress with another skittish one, Brisby. While he wasn't as relaxed as Anakin was, he did lay in my palm or the crook of my arm and allowed me to stroke him.

I knew things were going good with Anakin when in the beginning of tonight's immersion, I was rubbing Brisby in my arm and he decided to come over and leap on top of him and snuggle down. Big improvement from running in fear from me! I will post more updates, and hopefully will have pictures next time.


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## Rat Daddy

Immersion with 5 rats, and you are making really good progress... that's excellent! I can't wait to see the photos of your new mixed family.


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## TatsuKitty

Pocky is being so frustrating!! She does not seem to respect my authority at all anymore. I finally got fed up and flipped her on her back and scritched her tummy earlier for her getting in one of the few no no areas in my room. She keeps going into this like hyper drive mode or coming and nipping (no real pressure) at my fingernails. And peeing all over me!! Like every time she is near me she will pee! Like one or two drops all over my arms and legs ( and in my HAIR the other day ugh!) is the tummy scritching something I should repeat? She HATES it and squirms to get away and then goes into hyper drive again afterwards.


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## TatsuKitty

Well scritching actually seemed to help. She went off in a huff but then came and crawled all on me and begged for treats and let me pet her while she ate then and sat on my tummy. Mochi has actually opened up a lot too! And let me pet her with no fear!


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## Rat Daddy

A few drips of urine, is a scent mark so your rat doesn't accidentally misplace you or confuse you with someone else. Some rats don't have the best eyesight, and I suspect that humans look somewhat alike to rats, so a few drops of pee and you are wearing a rat ID tag.

Some rats do tend to go into rat hyper-speed as my daughter likes to call it, once they get older they don't do it as often, but it's always fun when they kick into high gear. Mostly it means they are excited. When Max gets stuck in rat hyper-speed she usually starts stealing things as fast as she can and she always bonks her head as she dives under the metal cabinet which makes a peculiar thunk... So it's snatch dash thunk, it's so predictable mostly we start laughing before impact. She apparently never gets hurt so must have a very hard head...

And yes, sometimes rewarding your rat by rubbing her belly helps, some rats struggle with belly rubs, but I've always felt they enjoy them just the same. Max will only let me rub her belly when she's grooming my teeth or lips... but my daughter can skritch away any time. It's odd, but there are very few rules to rat communication... for some reason you just know you should try something, then you do and it works... Basically it's intuition, somewhere down deep your subconscious brain knows what to do and when... My eight year old daughter has the most amazing relationships with all of our rats, far better than mine... She skritches, hugs, snuggles, whispers, shouts and even bops the rats exactly as her feeling dictate in the moment and the rats just get it instantly. So don't over think things stay in the moment use you intuition and watch for your rat's reaction. You might be surprised what a great rat whisperer you really are when you don't over think things.

So, it seems like you and your girls are really making progress. Girls can be confusing sometimes, but they are well worth it. Have fun with immersion and your rats will too. Keep us posted and don't forget to post a pic or two of you and your rats doing stuff together. I love to read the stories and see the pics. It brings back fond memories for me of the immersions I've done. 

Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## GypsyBoo

I have a question please if someone could help me. I have had my two girls Gypsy and Boo for like 11 days now, they are both I want to say near perfect from using the immersion training, they come to their names, they seem to enjoy my company , I still struggle a bit with getting them out of the cage they come to the door eagerly but when I go to pick them up they make me chase them. BUT my real question is this. My other two girls Bubbles and Jinx I just got on Friday night well today I started their second immersion training and Bubbles did great, yesterday she had spent almost the whole time cowered in the corner but today she was climbing on me and responding to her name etc butttttt Jinx escaped the play area, I do not for the life of me know how she did it because I was right there and didnt see or hear a thing, suddenly she was just gone, well she went missing for a good 8 hours or so when I finally found her in my closet , my closet is a total wreck of boxes and clothes so it was a slow painful process emptying it out and making sure nothing fell on her, she would come out of hiding, sniff my hand but run before I could grab her, to make a long story short it took me and my two teenage sons almost 45 minutes of trapping and coraling her before we caught her and returned her to her cage sooo here is the question, when I do immersion with the girls tomorrow do I include Jinx OR do I leave her in the cage since she had a pretty traumatic day? I dont want to stress her out but really want to make progress with her also. Also any clue how high the walls should be on the play area, I am thinking she must have just jumped right over, they are currently two feet tall. None of the other rats have been able to jump them but I dont see any other way she got out without me seeing her. Thank you so much for anyone kind enough to help me with this..


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## Rat Daddy

First Jinx's little adventure may have been traumatic to you but it was probably a great deal of fun for her. Rats love to explore clutter, in fact it's their natural environment... My rats live in the junk room rather than their cage. And if you get really lucky and your rats aren't destructive, your cluttered closet is eventually going to be your rats favorite playground...

So continue on with immersion, your rats are more stressed to be out in the open in the playpen than they would be in your closet. Most likely Jinx was coming out to tell you she was fine and trying to get you to follow her to the really cool place she found.. Rats aren't big on physics... I had a rat that always tried to drag me into her cage... I'm twice the size of her cage so there was no way I could follow her in.

My domestic rats really can't jump, but I had a part wild rat that could easily clear two feet and most likely closer to three. She was quite a bit leaner than my pudgy domestics, but I believe her abilities were as much in her mind as in her muscles. If Jinx believes she can clear two feet, she will try and most likely she can do it if she tries. Remember escaping is also part of what rats are designed to do....

In time, hopefully your rats will be better trained to come when called and you can take them past the playpen. For now I'd try to keep an eye on them and try and ratproof a room rather than build a better rat fortress to lock them into... But that's up to you.

We had a rat that chewed wires and was a fire hazard, but we still gave Max a fair chance and she's pretty good about not destroying stuff... and she doesn't chew wires and lives in the junk room. So you have to take a few chances to see just how competent your rats can get. Everyone has their own idea of how they want their family to be, in our house our rat lives much like my dogs did when I was a child. As I recall sometimes the dog chewed or messed something up too... but nobody is perfect.

Don't stress, you are doing fine... by doing immersion and bonding with your rats you make them feel safe and secure... yes, it's stressful at first but the object of the exercise is to reduce stress for them for the rest of their lives... Every day they aren't pack bonded to you is stressful to them, way more stressful than sniffing about in your old shoes and sports equipment...


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## GypsyBoo

WOW thank you so much , you would not believe how much I have been stressing and stressing over this. I did immersion training last night with Jinx and the entire time was a nightmare because all she wanted to do was get out of the play area again, she couldnt focus on anything else, and so I stressed all night wondering how in the world I was going to build an enclosure that she could not escape from while we try to bond with her. So am I reading this correctly that I could try basically just rat proofing the areas of my bedroom ((thats where we hang and live)) such as dangers to them cords etc and forget the play area completly enclosed? Will I make any progress with the immersion or do I get them fully into the immersion and then graduate because I just dont see this immersion in the enclosed area working with Jinx at all, two of my girls are all good, come to their names etc , and Bubbles is getting much better but Jinx she is her own little person and really just looks at us as those big people who keep foiling her escape plans, which are 100X worse now that she got the taste of freedom LOL! I am going to be a very happy camper indeed if I can get this little bundle to warm up to me/us .


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## GypsyBoo

I hate bothering you again Rat Daddy but I have read almost every thread you have written on this and I love your advice and I just listed this over on the health forum but would love to leave it here for you as well, I am a nervous wreck and really really worried if you wouldnt mind this is what i posted there and I am hoping someone will get back to me soon, I am almost in tears so worried. 43 years old and crying over my little ratties.. uh oh I am a goner.. anyways here is the post, anyone that can help please do. 








I am so worried, frustated and scared, please any advice at all. I need it again SOONBTW not sure if I should have posted this under health or beahvior, not sure which it is. Ok so after reading about free roaming etc and having major issues with one litle rattie that just would not quit trying to get out of the coordined off playpen I decided to ((what I thought anyways)) be an awesome mommy and give my four girls entire free roaming in my bedroom, last night I moved their cage to the floor to get them prepared, everything was fine, then I spent most the night and early morning making sure all cords were put away, checking for any dangers, blocking off any thing that could hurt them.. so excited so late this morning I open the cage door and nothing...well after awhile my little gal Bubbles jumps out and disappears, I am totally secure with it knowing she is safe and so excited to see what she does.., if you would like to see this check here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-tv...ature=youtu.beand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDfq...ature=youtu.be ,, it went awesome she went and hid for awhile and then she would come out for just a minute and run through as fast as she could I suppose scared I would grab her and then as you can see she had a blast....so an hour or so later my other new girl Jinx joined her and I found them in a corner creating a nest. It was really hot in here so I opened the window up which I hadnt done yet this spring and both Gypsy and Boo my other girls both about 2 1/2 months old started coughing and sneezing pretty bad so I closed it up and turned on the fan, I live not too far from the freeway so thought maybe they were getting some freeway smog or something that wasnt agreeing with them. Well Gypsy and Boo are both Mamas girls, they will come to me at ANYTIME and they are both now fully immersed, both of them slept all day, seemed to be breathing heavy and not reacting to me at all , they finally woke up and Boo came out for a minute or two and acted somewhat normal and Gypsy took a carrot from me but she would not take anything else, nor would she come to her name or eat any of her favorite treats. They are now both back in their cage, in their house sleeping and just not looking right, seems they are breathing a little heavy but I am not sure but just not acting themselves. Could this be stress ? The window open? I dont know and I am so so worried. For Gypsy not to respond to me is just heartbreaking, she has to come to see me at least 15 times a day at the cage and when she is let out she has to be on me, in my shirt or with me the whole time, today no raction. Help please.. I mean really ANY advice at all, I am so worried for my girls.​


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## GypsyBoo

OMG now I just feel silly, I am sorry I was freaking out AGAIN for nothing the girls are fine and all is well,. The open cage is working great, two of the girls are nesting near my bed and the other two back in their cages on their own., still alittle nervous leaving them out all night but they have been out all day long making lots of trips to the cage and back with no problems so for once I am NOT going to worry and it will all be good, Really sorry for going on and on again. Thanks so much


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## Rat Daddy

I know this sounds a little crazy... but try to remember your little fur balls are actually the second most successful animals on earth. Rats live in subways and learn to avoid trains, under highways and don't get hit by cars, in fact I once watched a big wild rat stop roadside and look both ways before crossing a road, rats live in all kinds of human homes and go unnoticed, they survive in jungles and subarctic climates. I've actually watched one of my rats teach another how to climb an extension cord when it couldn't follow.

No, rats aren't necessarily born competent, much like human babies, they need to learn survival skills. But rat brains have evolved over millions of years to be super survivors. And their bodies are likewise hyper-efficient. They can compress themselves to fit almost anywhere and can fall from tremendous heights and they can move fast, react fast and bite with serious effect, disabling or injuring much larger animals. And rats can work in social groups.... and defend themselves in force. And wild rats can roam many acres every night to find food and water, they might travel miles every day going from one burrow to another... And I once watched one of my rats dig a burrow under a large rock... in under 10 minutes she was over a foot underground...

Yes... as a rat mom you are raising babies that need your guidance and support, but never forget you are raising *rats*. Yesterday, I was outside talking to the furnace repair man, and Max insisted I put her down, so as not to get peed on, I did, she ran under across the driveway, under my car around to the front of the house up the front stairs and waited by the door for me to let her in. While we were in the basement, I let her explore the clutter... she disappeared for a few minutes and came back... She's a very competent animal that lives free range in our house... But what exactly should be surprising about this? After all she's a rat! 

Now when rats get exposed to new smells, they often sneeze to clear their noses... sometimes they might even have minor reactions to certain things, but again, they are rats... they are literally designed to live in dumps, sewers and hostile environments that would kill humans. 

I realize that this is a stretch off the immersion topic, but it goes to your mindset and that of other people reading this far along... If you see your rats as small helpless animals, it's hard to respect them and see their amazing potential. Sure it's your job to keep your rats safe, but like any children you have to give them the opportunity to grow up and explore and to develop into competent adults. 

As you are finding out, each rat is different. Our Amelia hated the great outdoors and would panic and run for shelter, Fuzzy Rat was much more like a dog, she liked to explore and meet people. Max doesn't panic and she's nearly as outdoor competent as Fuzzy Rat, but she has a much more rat-like personality and prefers to be in a more sheltered place away from crowds... Much of how a rat acts depends on it's ability and the rest on it's personality. So among your rats you may have an explorer, a snuggler, a leader and a recluse... and each one is just as "normal" as the other. It's just like the differences you will find among your children... You teach three kids to drive and one will buy a van and start a delivery business, the next will buy a hot rod and go drag racing and the third will drive their Toyota several States away to college... All you can do is teach your rats to be as skillful as possible and watch them grow up and always hope for the best. You can and should expect all of your kids and rats to love you, but you can't expect each of them to show it the same way...

I hope that helps...


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## GypsyBoo

Thank you Rat Daddy, it did help ALOT and I needed that. In fact it helped so much I am going to print it out to put near the cage for my near freak out moments,(( because I am sure I will have more.. ))to remind me I dont need to worry so much. I really really appreciate all the help you have offered me. Your the best !!


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## Rat Daddy

You're most welcome. Rats are amazing little beings, with intelligence and emotions, part of the great adventure is to help them to grow into competent little friends. It's so much fun to see them learn new things and to explore their universe with them and to find new and better ways to interact and communicate. I think you'll do just fine...


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## TatsuKitty

Ok, so i think my girls and I are finally on the same page! I just wanted to update again cuz i'm super happy. XD they told me they were ready for playtime today and my reward for getting them out has been grooming, hair burrowing, lap crawling and kisses! Pocky and Mochi BOTH let me snuggle them! and I seem to have communicated that my dresser of clean clothing is off limits! XD not that they've stopped TRYING but they are indeed way too smart!


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## Rat Daddy

There was once a silly little rat that thought she could communicate with humans and she never gave up until her humans understood... and when she finally got through, in that moment the theory of immersion was born. I'm so proud and lucky to have been there and to share that insight with you. And when I read each and every success story I really feel joyful that another great friendship is born from the life's work of a single silly little rat that absolutely refused to be misunderstood.

Yup, you've got it! Your rats are way too smart! And now you've found that special bond that we shared with our truly amazing Fuzzy Rat, with your help, your rats will become amazing too... Thank you for sharing.

Best luck to you and your mixed species family.


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## ante_luce

Hi, I've been going through immersion sessions with my two boys, and now they will wander up to me, climb over me if I'm in their way, then nap in the furthest corner of the shower stall about 2 hours into the session. Sometimes they play fight, should I be inserting myself into these 'fights' to show them that I'm the alpha rat? Going through the thread here, I figure neck and belly grooming should come after winning, but how does one win a play/dominance fight?


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## Rat Daddy

Because you are gigantic compared to your rats, you've got the inside track on being alpha already. Unless your rats are screwed up there isn't much if any force required... you just naturally take charge by being there and directing the action and the play.

Yes, some rats get confused, despite your massive size and obvious control of the cage door, they think they should be in charge, this is where nice mom or dad has to become the big bad bear for a little while to set all the family members back on the right path. Basically, most kids and rats respond well to the nice and permissive parent, but when you find your kid setting the microwave timer with the cat inside, the gloves come off and you do everything it takes to correct that kind of behavior before you raise a serial killer. Same with rats, if they are nice no force is required, if they start attacking you, you make sure they never think to try it again....

So in your case being the alpha seems pretty easy, just guide the play hands on.

From what you are describing your rats aren't being anti-social and they aren't afraid of you, and this is good, but they haven't gotten that you are a sentient being yet. They aren't interacting with you or communicating with you yet. They aren't coming to you for interaction. This needs to be corrected.

Sure, get your hands into the playfighting, poke, scoop, skritch and inject yourself into the play. If you can't think of what to do, pretend your a giant rat and you want to play with your new friends and don't take no for an answer. Once they get that you are reaching out to engage them they will respond to which you reply. You engage until they respond then you reply appropriately...

I understand that this might feel a little pushy for adult human sensibility... But kids and rats do pushy and understand pushy. What's the best kind of engagement, to be honest it doesn't matter as long as you are reaching out to your rat and trying to communicate. The only thing that doesn't facilitate immersion is doing "nothing"... When you do nothing, nothing happens. No engagement, no response, no reply.. no communication.

(Well, strangely enough we did one immersion with a rat phobic rat owner who bundled up in several layers of clothing and gloves and sat in a corner under a blanket, after a few weeks her rat actually started licking her face as she cried frozen in terror, which I convinced her was a good thing and she finally took the big chance of petting her rat and they became best friends... I'm thinking it was one of the more unusual cases where the rat had to immerse a terrified human.... The rat engaged, the human finally responded and the rat replied... But this took weeks until the rat figured it out on his own.)

We brought home a new rat yesterday, we carried her on shoulder to the car and wound up stopping traffic on Main Street in urban East Orange, where my daughter introduced her new rat to a little boy and showed her off to strangers, on the ride home the rat rode on my daughters lap and hid under her back, when we got back my daughter had the new rat napping on her lap and both of us handled and played with her very much hands on... The new rat is currently napping on my desk as I type this. She comes to hand and when she wanted to cross from one desk to the other I put my hand in between and she crossed it.... We've had this new rat for less than a day but she already knows we're sentient beings and she's interacting with us. She sat under my monitor and drew my attention and when I moved my finger to her she preened it.... Now on to name training... We tried intros, but after a few seconds Max realized the new rat was still a pup and pounced on her... When we broke them up, Max got all offended and wandered off.... at 7 weeks old Max has decided the new pup is too old to kill and too young to play with... 

So, we brought the new rat (her working name is Cloud) home at about 8:00 PM last night at around 2:00 AM I evicted Max from her cage and moved the new pup into it for the first time and she wasn't very happy to be left alone in the cage, she actually climbed after me, she would already rather be with her new humans than on her own... And yes, Max is going to have to live in the store room for a few weeks, which I'm sure she won't mind, she practically already lives there.

Basically, you need to engage your rats more... Cloud didn't get put down for 6 hours before she finally saw her new cage for the first time... She's already done a meet and greet in public and a long car ride free range, and she's explored my desk and played on the floor with my daughter and Met Max... And when my daughter let Cloud loose on the floor, Cloud already ran to her for protection.... (We did take her to our immersion area to meet Max, but as Max wasn't having it and Cloud was already all over us, we didn't stay there long.)

OK, so Fuzzy Rat and I came up with Immersion and shoulder rat training, and we picked Cloud because she had a wonderful calm disposition, and I'm certainly not recommending anyone do immersion in the middle of Main Street... with a rat they have known for less than 5 minutes... But it's all about the interaction, the space is just to make it easier to facilitate the interaction. 

Was this all stressful on Cloud? Well I'm guessing yes. But she happily explored my desk this morning and is napping right in front of me in Fuzzy Rat's old litter box which for some reason Max stuffed with paper towels. I'm going with, the worst is over and there's good times ahead. 

At about 5:30 PM yesterday, Cloud was separated from her home, most of her sisters and plunked into a Tupperware box by 6:10 PM she was separated from her last two siblings and friends at 6:10.01 PM she was welcomed into her new mixed human / rat family. I don't think it gets too much less stressful for a pack animal than that.

Best luck.


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## ante_luce

Thanks for the advice Rat Daddy. I tried the constant interaction today, and 2 hours of near constant poking, scritching and generally being in their faces later, Tempo still prefers lying down on the tiles and napping. But it's been a warm day and they might just not have had the energy to play much. Milo backs away from my hand sometimes and presses himself against the wall, and today he pressed so far he ended up on his side, back to the wall, belly exposed. I rubbed his belly when he did this and he didn't move. Scritching Milo sometimes results in him 'hunching up', his back curves up although all four feet are on the ground. Both will let me pet them and poke them, and I can dangle them for about 2 heartbeats, but instead of immersing them, have I conditioned them to think that I'm something to be endured until I have to end the immersion session?

ETA: I can't hold immersions for more than 3-4 hours, unfortunately. The bathroom is shared with my family and nowhere else is rat-safe or able to be made so right now. I usually have to wait until everyone else is out for the day, which leaves me with weekends mostly.


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## Rat Daddy

Some rats are just harder to get through to, older rats, and rats that have been unloved for a long time really have trouble getting that you are trying to communicating with them. Try to mix up the interaction, more picking them up, try a few treats, whatever...

Rat are like humans, they have a light bulb moment... You're basically furniture until you aren't. The change can be rather sudden.

The problem is that we usually don't know what our rats have been through before we adopted them. I usually can tell when I've got a problem as soon as I pick it up at the store. I look for rats that aren't afraid and start to interact with me right away. But sometimes you can't always do that. Older rats that have been neglected or mistreated just assume that people can't or don't want to interact with them and you have to break them of this notion. Some rats that have been mistreated are literally afraid of you and with these you are going to have to spend a lot more time because they have to overcome their fear of you, and you can't push a frightened rat too hard or you frighten it worse... Fearful rats are better than aggressive biting rats because they involve less blood loss on your part, but they can be very frustrating and time consuming to get through to.

You're most likely doing everything right but you have to work with the rats you have. 

Be patient and persistent and they will come around.


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## ante_luce

I think we made progress today. Both boys perk up for treats, though they haven't quite figured out that box shaking noises means treat time and they need to catch scent of the munchies first. Tempo eats them sitting on me (so as to be first in line for the next bit) while Milo alternates between dashing for the floor with his goodies and sitting on the furthest part of me he can manage without falling off. Tempo will let me flip him and rub his belly after scritching his neck, and he's willing to nap next to me. When I moved him from napping by the wall to my side, he didn't immediately run off but stayed put and half shut his eyes. Milo is still being skittish around me, I can flip him too, but there's less belly rubbing allowed. I get the feeling they think I'm furniture that is somehow acting alpha, rather than alpha rat parent. I worry that Tempo allowing me to rub his belly is a sign that he's shutting down because he thinks he can't really get away from me.

I might have had a setback with Milo. He ran off while I was returning them to their cage, and in the process of fishing him out, I had to drag him away from some wires (live, plugged in and humming) by one leg, and he squeaked pretty loudly. Hopefully the treat I gave him helps him forget about that...

Both rats were the same age (8 weeks) when I got them from their breeder. I didn't know what to look for then, so I picked for colour rather than temperament. They told me their rats had free range of a pretty big room during the day, and were only caged at night. They were handled enough to not be completely afraid of humans, but the breeder did say they hadn't been able to socialise them very much, and their older, well socialised rats were all too old to put up with curious pups. My rats also spent the first 2 months with me going through trust training as I hadn't found out about immersion.


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## ratmode

I have had two young male albino rats for about a week. They are really great, for the most part, and have begun licking my hand when I put it into their cage. However, they still freak out when I handle them and one of them is a little more timid than the other (I figure that's just personality). I would like to do an immersion with them, but the catch is that I live in a very old house from the 1800's, and since they are smallish rats at this point, there is not a single room in the house that can be rat-proofed. Not even the bathrooms...the house uses radiator heat, so there are pipes running through all the walls, and holes by the pipes. Plus there are cracks in everything. I found this out when I let them out in the bathroom and one of them disappeared! It took me 24 hours to convince him to come back out.

So, that being said, how would you recommend I proceed? Should I maybe use a large plastic bin, or a bathtub or something?

By the way, a recent study shows that rodents - rats in particular - exhibit higher stress hormone levels when they are in the room with a human male than a human female. Just thought that would be an interesting tidbit to add to this thread.


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## Rat Daddy

Generally, I'd go with duct or masking tape for rat proofing the immersion area depending on the age and condition of the paint you are taping to. Duct tape is stronger, but it pulls off paint when you remove it. If you have a tub where the rats can get behind, think hallway or kitchen or one of those small bedrooms common to many old houses You really should have some maneuvering room. You might be able to get some fridge boxes from a local appliance store for free to zone off a part of a room. There are also little split washer things to put around holes where pipes go into the floor and walls, they are cheap and make for permanent fixes that will come in handy when you free range, premixed Spackle compound is also cheap for cracks in walls if you'd rather not just buy a bag of plaster also for cheap. I'm pretty good with plaster, but honestly Spackle is a no brainer, if you screw up, you can just wash it off. Buy stainless steel tools because plaster will rust the cheaper tools fast.

And I have no doubt that rats can tell the difference between human males and females and even children. Our rats are much more affectionate with my daughter than me, even though I do most of the care giving and socialization. Thanks for bringing it up.


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## ratmode

I might spackle some of the pipe holes if I ever let the rats free-range unsupervised (later on in their lives), which is doubtful, since the house is chock-full of rat hazards. However I'd have to remove the spackle if I ever needed to do maintenance on the heat system, as the holes by the pipes are usually necessary to access the pipe joints, regulator valves, etc.

Good idea on the tape. Some of the paint is old, but needs re-done anyway for an upcoming home inspection. Still might go with painter's tape. I'd imagine gaffer's tape wouldn't leave marks, but may pull off the paint. For now I think I'll make a barrier using cardboard boxes. All the tools I use are stainless steel...learned my lesson on my first job a little while back where I had to buy tools, got the Harbor Freight cheapies and almost immediately regretted it.


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## Rat Daddy

Don't underestimate your rats, rats lived in houses way back in the 1800s too and didn't get themselves killed. Domestic rats have about 25-35% of the innate survival skills and abilities of their wild cousins... but they aren't small helpless animals either. As you slowly let them explore they will become more and more house competent... And as long as you don't leave bait stations, glue traps or rat traps laying around they will likely do better than you think. I currently have two rats that aren't through intros yet so one rat in the cage while the other free ranges.. Once they are through intros, most likely it will be two free range rats full time, as long as the new rat doesn't eat wires or destroy stuff... and my house was built around the turn of the last century too.

But for purposes of immersion, it's nice to have some play room where you can sit on the floor and interact with your rats especially if they are older than pups. Rats are designed to scurry and run around and it's nice to move without crushing someone. If an area is too big, it's hard to keep in contact, but if it's too small it's hard to gauge what's actually happening in terms of bonding and communication. I mean in a bath tub, it hard to tell if your rat is coming to you or running away from you...

In the long term, aluminum flashing is a good rat block, it's easy to shape, cut and tape or glue into place, and rats don't usually chew through it. To close off doorways, I just use old plywood scraps but Masonite or cardboard should work as well short term and under supervision.


Have fun.


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## ratmode

I built a big pen out of large plastic bricks (think Legos, only like 50x bigger) that I got a long time ago and the rats seemed to like that! So I think I'll try it again. They live in a big plastic tub with a hardware cloth lid right now, but I'm working on building them a bigger cage out of hardware cloth. I'd say they have a good 4x3 feet on the bottom, but obviously need a lot more.

Also the reason I mention rat hazards is that I've found the odd dead rat or mouse in the house over the years. There may be rat poison left by the previous owners, however - the house is very old after all. I've used mousetraps too but have only ever caught mice. In fact I think I've only ever seen a rat in the neighborhood one time. So it's possible that was just a fluke! I'll try letting them free-range over larger and larger areas as they get older. They are still juveniles and not properly bonded to me yet (though one of them mostly is!). Thanks RatDaddy!


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## ilovescience

Just for clarification, you believe trust training is best for timid rats? New rat owner here and I'm sort of overwhelmed about how I should go about handling my babies.. I've been trying both trust training and immersion with Algae (short for Algernon). It's the fourth day and as I'm currently in between jobs, I've been spending literally all day with her (from 7am to 1am with an hour or so of alone time while I'm doing chores and whatnot). I've been getting mixed signals from her.. She'll climb over me and stuff if she thinks I have treats but at the slightest noise or movement, she'll zoom away and run to hide underneath the covers (I free-range on my bed). She'll let me groom her belly (she goes all floppy, it's the cutest thing) - but thats only sometimes while she's in my shirt. Other times, she'll squirm like mad trying to get away until I have to put her down. I don't know how to make her see that I'm safety/family for her.. I feel like the more I handle her, the more she gets scared of me when I finally put her down.


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## Rat Daddy

Trust training was around for a very long time. When it came to aggressive rats it was horrible. Aggressive and hormonal rats actually started biting their humans that were being very submissive and trying to build trust. In the worst cases, trust training lead to neutering or even some rats being put to sleep... But everything that survives for any length of time has some basis for it's existence, in other words it has to do something reasonably well... In those cases where rats came into their new homes severely traumatized and overly shy a very slow and cautious approach actually worked to slowly draw them out over the course of weeks. It worked best with folks that had a naturally soft voice and touch and lots of patience and had time for longer sessions... It also worked for some people better than others, these were the 'rat whisperers' who had a natural talent for understanding their animals. 

Trust training still has some ardent supporters, I know a few and to be honest, they are gifted animal handlers and what they call trust training is light years ahead of any method you will read posted on line. In fact, it's more like immersion than plain vanilla trust training, but even then mostly it's a propitiatory approach. Immersion is teachable and learnable and can be replicated by lots of different people, there are already countless immersion morphs being done by different people world wide.... They are all flavors of immersion because they start off by assuming that rats are intelligent and emotional animals and are based on communication and understanding. When dealing with traumatized and super shy rats, immersion needs to be done gently and patiently and it can look similar to trust training... but it's different because it has a different philosophy and goal set.

Alright lets try and decipher what's going on with your Algernon... 

"She'll climb over me and stuff if she thinks I have treats" So that's fine and normal, rats like treats...

"but at the slightest noise or movement, she'll zoom away and run to hide underneath the covers" also normal for new rats, some rats spook easily. Your home is a very scary place for a rat that's never been out of a cage before...

"She'll let me groom her belly (she goes all floppy, it's the cutest thing) - but that's only sometimes while she's in my shirt." That's very nice and I'd say she basically trusts you already. Work on building on this kind of interaction it's great when a female rat is snuggles with you...

"Other times, she'll squirm like mad trying to get away until I have to put her down. I don't know how to make her see that I'm safety/family for her.. I feel like the more I handle her, the more she gets scared of me when I finally put her down." The joys of owning girl rats! Girl rats are natural explorers and adventurers and they have lots of energy to burn. And they need to run around and experience all kinds of things and find secret places and build secret nests... It's likely not that your girl wants to get away from you, but she needs to explore her new world.

Max is our current super competent true shoulder rat, she's not generally cuddly or too fond of people, but she will grudgingly do meet and greets in public especially if there are little girls for her to meet. Today we had her at the playground with my 8 year old daughter and she was resting in my arms, after about 20 minutes she got bored and hopped down to the ground and lead me around the playground while she explored. She did get picked up by a little girl or two, but mostly she kept to herself and just wandered about sniffing stuff and going under the play apparatus. She lives in our storage room and comes out for food and occasional play. She loves us, comes on command outdoors, is safe around the house and is a great rat, but to be entirely honest she's not a big snuggler... 5 to 10 minutes of snuggling is all your about to get, then she has important exploring or napping to do. It's just her personality.

So when Algae wants to hit the floor, it's less about not trusting you and more about wanting to know whats under your bed, behind your dresser or in your linen closet. 

It's important to remember that a wild rat will live it's life over many acres of territory... It may wander half a mile to water each day and another half a mile to find food, it might explore vast subway tunnels or barnyards, it will maintain several burrows. Rats are truly big animals that come in small packages. We've had our newest rat for about a week now, I last saw her about an hour ago when she slid down the computer power wire and vanished behind my desk... I have no clue where she is... In a few hours I'll call her back and put her into her cage for the night... I did play with her on my bed the first few days we had her. But by the third day, I dozed off and when I woke up and called her she popped out of my dresser drawer. We've never had a rat that stayed on the bed for more than a little while... Girl rats love to run around and explore, they are the second most successful species on earth and no girl will ever be happy in bed when there are so many things to do around the house. Don't take it personally...


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## ilovescience

Oh wow, thanks for the lengthy response! It was fun and informative to read 

I think I left out a few key points, though. When Algae spooks, she runs /away/ from me. In the bathroom, she'll run to the farthest corner from me. In the bed (I've placed my and my sister's beds together with our blankets stuffed in between so she can't fall/climb through), she'll explore - which I think is the most adorable thing to watch, but once she's done exploring, she finds a tunnel-like place (behind our pillows, inbetween the folds of our blankets) and sleeps. She doesn't come when called (even when I have treats) and many times I thought she'd escaped somehow only to find herself burrowed somewhere in the blankets - and which point, she'll blearily look at me and when I reach to touch her, she scurries away to another tunnel-like place. I tried sectioning off my sister's bed while lying in my own, but she ended up just sleeping at the foot of my bed, furthest away from me. She avoids my hands at all costs (unless she thinks I have treats and even then she'll run away when she thinks I'm going to pet her) besides the rare times she'll let me groom her (but only when she's trapped in my shirt and falling asleep after attempting to escape like a mad rat). She chatters with anxiety all the time (she's only bruxed once in the very beginning before I started Immersion and even then I feel like I may have mistaken chattering for bruxing). I've also tried forced power-grooming twice and both times I feel like they made her worse and like I was terrorizing her. Are you not supposed to use aggressive immersion methods on timid rats?

Also, whenever she tries to squirm away, I don't think it's because she wants to explore - I can feel her heartbeat and it's beating so fast I was scared she'd go into cardiac arrest (as opposed to her base heartbeat when she's napping), like she's terrified of me.. Esp considering she runs and hides as soon as I put her down, instead of exploring or scoping out the place.. 

So yeah, definitely feel like I'm getting mixed signals from Algae 

P.S. I know this is the behavior section, but do you by any chance know why she shakes her head viciously from side to side (like a wet dog)..? Could it possibly be health related..?

P.S.S. Do rats ever acclimate to loud noises? Our household is rather loud and noisy..


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## Rat Daddy

So to answer your questions in random order...

" Are you not supposed to use aggressive immersion methods on timid rats?" No you use aggressive immersion or extreme immersion on biting and aggressive rats not on timid ones... Yes you still engage timid rats, but less forcefully and more gently. There's just about nothing useful about watching your rat avoid you from a distance, but you don't bully them. Try to be more gentle and reassuring, keep the contact going but don't try to power groom or overpower them, just be a constant companion and try to get your rat to see you as a friend and a companion.

My wet rats do the wet dog thing and will spray me wet, but I've never seen a dry rat shake herself off like that. 

Loud noises are impossible for wild rats to cope with. Our half wild rat would evaporate into thin air when the neighbor living in the house next door dropped a dish... She couldn't tolerate any sudden loud noise at all. I couldn't even raise my voice or she was gone for at least an hour.

This is Max passing her final true shoulder rat test... That's a full side commercial town size fireworks fountain finale going off behind me with rockets and aerial bombs. Some rats do learn to handle loud noises and true shoulder rats have to, to survive.

I'd go with more playful interaction for now, take Algae under the covers with you and play with her and let her explore you. Stay in contact but try to be reassuring as well as engaging. 

Immersion requires you engage your rat to get her to realize you are sentient and trying to communicate... engagement needs to be appropriate... you engage and your rat replies then you react appropriately. If you try to pet your rat and it replies aggressively you respond aggressively. If you engage your rat and it replies in fear, you respond by trying to reassure it you are friendly. 

Immersion is about communication and every dialogue will be different and the conversation is going to change as you progress. Imagine if you were talking to someone about going out to lunch and the person keeps repeating "I don't like tuna." He might actually not like tuna, but without both of you reacting and responding to each other you are never going to agree on a restaurant. Communication is an interaction and an interplay of actions, you may be reading that your rat is afraid of you, so think about it, how would YOU tell your rat you are her friend? and how would you expect your rat to respond if she understood? 

Keep in mind Algae might have been neglected or mistreated before you got her... you might have done nothing wrong and most likely you haven't, but you have to undo the damage other people have done to her, and that might not be easy. She might have very good reason to be afraid of humans and you are going to have to convince her you are different.

Hang in there and best luck, rats are smart and emotional beings and they understand love and affection, it just takes some longer than others.

Best luck.


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## phoenix73182

I have two female rats that my boyfriend and myself adopted about three weeks ago. One is calm and shy, the other is hyper and likes to bite. Our bitey rat started out only biting if you stuck your fingers through the cage bars, but has gotten to the point that you can't open the cage or put your hands in without her biting. I've had to distract her somehow, or put thick gloves on to open the cage. She has even started to bite me randomly, even when I don't see a reason for her to do so. I'm a first time rat owner, and was not aware that you needed to immerse them into your family when brought home, so unfortunately didn't do this. I'm getting upset because one rat doesn't seem to mind us, but the other is biting us, and beating up her sister/steal food from her/etc. I attempted to take our biter out into our bathroom to show dominance, but she just ran around the room mostly ignoring me. I'm not sure where to go from here, so any advice is welcome.


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## ilovescience

I wish you did house visits LOL Having such a hard time with Algae. Indeed, a scared/fearful rat is more difficult to work with than an aggressive one. At least you can /do/ something with an aggressive rat. I've tried bribing her with all sorts of treats and the only one she consistently responds to are Yogies and I'd rather not load her up on those. She hides & sleeps *all* the time - both day and night. I'm starting to wonder if she's sick.. I also need to find her a friend, as the previous arrangement did not work out (but blast it I'm having such a hard time with just one rat, and there are no reputable breeders in Chicago). Thank you so much for your insight. I feel like it would be helpful if you made a separate sticky/thread dedicated for timid rats (since there are different handling methods for timid vs aggressive rats) - so that everyone can benefit from your knowledge


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## Rat Daddy

I'm envisioning a scenario where you have two rats locked in their care most of the time because you really can't handle one of them.... which is of course going to make things worse...

Basically your biting rat, bites because of fear or aggression... A fearful rat runs away and bites when cornered. An aggressive rat attacks you. It's setting the tone of the interaction.

As you are telling me your rat is attacking you, I'd start by handling it as if it were aggressive. Armor up and bring it into your immersion area. Ignoring you is better than attacking you. But don't sit there and watch her, engage her. Talk to her and try to keep touching her, picking her up, giving her treats and do whatever it takes to get your rat to react to you. Most likely she has no clue that you are capable of understanding her or communicating with her... If she is from a pet shop, she has most likely been neglected or abused. In any case she's not likely to assume you are a potential friend.

You are engaging her to get a response.... If the response is friendly and inquisitive reply in kind, treats, petting even hugs and snuggles... If the reply is offensive and aggressive... fight back. Bopping and swatting and shouting all serve to communicate that you are in fact alive and intelligent. Moreover your not only sentient, but you are taking charge. 

Understand that you are not trying to punish your rat and you are not trying to hurt your rat!!! Rats are strong and durable animals, but they are very small compared to us, use only sufficient force send a message, NOT inflict injuries.

I'm currently going through intros with a new rat... she's particularly stubborn and won't submit to my much larger rat, when they meet they fight, about 5 minutes after the fight the smaller rat turns red from blood seepage from tiny wounds inflicted by the much larger rat's mock bites. This would seem incredibly cruel to us, but the large rat could easily just kill the smaller one, she has moderated her attack to exercise authority not kill her new frenemy. 

Eventually, assuming the larger rat can maintain sufficient composure, the smaller one will fall in line and social order will be established. 

Extreme immersion is similarly unpleasant to us. We want to be good rat parents and show our rats love, not force. But we have to establish order first. As soon as your new rat stops attacking you and shows you respect, reward it with treats, love and all of the kindness you can muster. I know it might feel strange, but even in human conflicts where there are bodies strewn about the battlefield the moment a white flag goes up... everybody stops shooting and doctors start patching the wounded. It's combat until your rat gets it and then it's bonding as usual. Once the biting rat is brought into your family, you do the same with the other... most likely there won't be any combat involved there. It will be more playful right from the start.

But remember, you have to fix the biting rat first or it will attack it's friend for bonding with you.

There are several posts involving extreme immersion. There's even one that was done live on line... do a search on immersion or extreme immersion and you will find lots of them that will give you more of a play by play...

Remember, engage your rat... (nothing happens when you and your rat are ignoring each other) elicit a response (either friendly or aggressive) then you reply (if your rat is nice then you are nice, if your rat attacks you, you do shock and awe with love and compassion in your heart) 

From what you have written, I'm assuming your rat is aggressive, but I'm not there so I may have misread what is happening. Remember, react to what you see... you don't overwhelm a frightened rat, you comfort and reassure her and you don't back down from a rat that's attacking you... By engaging you only initiate contact, your rats response sets the tone of your reply and how immersion goes. If you get neither fear or aggression you just play and snuggle.

Rats aren't stupid, they eventually get it. You and your boyfriend are huge and powerful and smart, this is a fight your rats can't actually win and the sooner they realize it, the sooner they will respect you and start looking for your love and protection. Social order is you and your boyfriend on top with your rats under your protection... Remember being an alpha is being a parent, keeping order but mostly showing love and protecting your family. 

I've seen intros and extreme immersions take minutes or days... When we brought Amelia home, she was a year younger and larger than Fuzzy Rat, the co founder of immersion, Fuzzy Rat boxed with her for about 5 minutes then rolled over on her side and got groomed, the rats were best friends in under 15 minutes... The current battle has been going on for a week... I tried to do it hands on, but when I calmed down Max, the big rat, the Cloud, small one tried to dominate her, when I put my hand in between, I got mock bit by my large girl and real bit from the rat I was protecting... The small rat insists on challenging the larger one and the results are predictable... she gets squashed like a bug and winds up running off to lick her wounds... At some point, the new rat is going to understand she's not going to be the boss and she's better off being friends. Then the large rat is going to play nice too. In the mean time there's going to be fighting and chaos. It's just the way rats work things out, and in immersion we communicate with rats the way they can understand.

Finally, in order to integrate your human and rat family, you should have the rats out of the cage for as much time as possible with you. Rats trapped in a cage is about the worst thing you can do to socialize them and keep them social. 

Best luck.


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## ilovescience

So.. I don't know if Algae's getting better or worse.. if she's getting friendlier or if she's starting to show signs of aggression? Trying to take a video but my sister's nice camera doesnt have auto focusing while shooting a video (and with how much Algae moves, she's just a blurr). I'll see if I can use my old camera..


1. She's starting to sprinkle pee all over me and my bed. I understand that this is a sign of territorial marking, but does it also imply dominance? Is that her way of saying she's Alpha?


2. When she's in the cage, she still only comes up to me when she thinks I have food. I've taken to feeding her veggies (which she really likes) by hand, but she'll still take the veggie and then zip away to eat in her hiding place.


3. She's starting to move real fast.. Whereas she was weary and would freeze with terror before, she scurries around, trying to avoid my hand (unless, again, she thinks I have food - and even then, as soon as the food's in her grasp, she runs away). 


4. When I try to pet her head, she used to let me do that.. but now she like.. shakes it off and puts her head above my fingers, if that makes sense.. Kind of like what a dog does.. It's not playing.. It almost seems like she gets defensive.. Her back haunches up and once, it almost seemed like she was in a boxing stance??? I could be wrong, as it happens so fast and the runs away so quickly. Is this also a sign of aggression/dominance?


5. Are you not supposed to play tug-of-war with rats? I know you're not supposed to tease with treats.. i think because they can learn to get aggressive about treats.. But what about fabric and stuff? I dont know if it's just coincidence, but ever since i've played tug of war with her, that's when it seems like the potential signs of aggression have been popping up..


FYI: She doesn't have a cagemate.. I'm still looking but having a hard time finding a friend for her. I'm also waiting to buy a wheel, as she might have built up energy. She also doesn't play with the myriad of toys that I've bought her.. She just sleeps in her space pod.


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## Rat Daddy

First, unless it actually involves you bleeding just about any behavior change is good when you are dealing with timid or new rats... That can include tug of war, or even mock fighting or mock biting you... It's interaction and that's what you want. The more you interact the more you understand and the more your rat understands you.

Running away and running towards you are actually less fearful than standing frozen in place while you touch her. When she moves you can try and judge what she means....

I don't put much stock in peeing... sometimes rats mark you so they know it's you, other times they just have to go potty... My first rats loved to mark me, somehow I now must give off a signal that I don't like to be peed on so my current rats don't do it or do it in some sneaky way I don't notice... 

Don't drive yourself mad trying to understand every action your rat takes... watch for patterns or really unique or commonly repeated behaviors and try to see what's causing them. Also keep in mind your rat may be trying to communicate with you. Oddly, you'll just start to get it, like when you suddenly realize you understand your dog better than your relatives... 

Other miscellaneous comments... 

Some rats always eat after running off with food, others will eat right on you... that's just a rat thing. 

Girl rats have lots of energy, it's part of having girls, but they also sometimes sleep a lot, so it's off and hyper go... switch on - switch off... Some rats sleep when bored and some rats just sleep a lot. 

I wouldn't worry too much about aggression, timid rats rarely switch to aggressive. Many new rat owners tend to have a little secret fear of their rats, well because rats have huge razor sharp teeth, but rats know how sharp their teeth are and only bite when they mean to hurt you... Dogs have sharp teeth too, but mostly we don't worry about our pet dogs, same goes for rats, most will never bite their humans... ever. The aggression you are worried about is more likely imagined than real.

As to toys, my daughter wanted a cat ball with a bell inside when she was two years old, since then every rat we've had has rolled it into her secret nest... when a rat passes away another rat adopts the toy and rolls it to her nest... Aside from the strange journey the ball takes from nest to nest, no rat has ever actually played with it as far as I can tell... It's just a coveted trophy. I've also never had a rat run in a wheel. My rats love to explore but don't play much except with their humans and sometimes with each other. As to buying your rat a friend, if your rat is an adult you can't introduce her to a pup, but otherwise check out any rat you buy to make sure it's friendly to you first... I've had all kinds of rats and some of the best have come from snake food bins... I don't know where rats can be found near you, best luck, wish I could help....

Best luck... gotta go cut the lawn.


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## ilovescience

As always, your replies are always so informative (as well as entertaining to read).

The problem, I suppose, is that I'm a completely new rat owner (pet owner, even).. So common sense things, like certain things being personality differences, while other things being indicative of a behavioral issue or miscommunication, etc, is unknown to me.. I suppose that might come with experience and guidance from rat veterans such as yourself xD


I read in one of your comments to a thread that you got one of your rats to stop peeing outside of her litter box? How in the world did you manage that? As of right now, I have to take a shower right before I go out anywhere, otherwise I'll reek of pee (and poo, since my new babies fear poop and pee all over me). My bed also stinks like rat pee, even though I'm changing my sheets every few days. I'm considering getting a waterproof cover or something so that the pee doesnt sink into my foam mattress topper. I already have asthma and allergies.. old rat pee compounded with human sweat and dandruff would wreak havoc on my body (sorry if TMI LOL).


I honestly can't wait till the day I'll understand my babies <3 You have to understand, though.. I fail at communicating with other humans (majorly socially awkward, here), so this might take longer for me. But incredibly excited for the light bulb moment for myself XD


Also, I'd like to say, I believe Algae's making progress DD Even if it seems like with every step forward, we take two steps back, it's still encouraging.. I ended up getting two baby rats for Algae. They were promised to be well-socialized and regularly handled (they're even more fearful than when I first got Algae and it's in comparison to them that I've noticed Algae's progress). One of them also turned out to be a boy - but that's a whole other topic with it's own thread heh. After initial introductions, since I caught them sleeping atop one another, I thought they might be okay. But I'm considering separating them, since Algae keeps making Basil squeak frantically by pinning her down (Dawson, the male, has already been separated to prevent any pregnancies). If I do separate them, when do you think would be a good age to re-introduce them?


Oh, and I was wondering if you knew anything about bum-touching and hind-leg kicking? She squeaks and kind of arches her back (cat-like, not lordosis) and raises one of her legs and does a rabbit-like kick. At first, I thought it might be because she was in heat, but I've noticed it's a continuing behavior (even when she's not in heat). Having a hard time figuring out what she's trying to communicate to me, and how I should be responding.. =\


Thing about dogs: I've seen some incredibly aggressive dogs with incredibly ignorant owners. They'd laugh when the dog reacted to taunting by turning vicious, while I stood there frozen in fear. They weren't abusive to the dog or anything, but they didn't recognize the aggression as a problem - they thought it was just play. I've seen other dog owners that were scared of their own dog because they didn't know when s/he would act out. It wasn't until I watched the Dog Whisperer that I realized that aggressive behavior is NOT okay. And apparently, you have to make sure you raise the dog properly so that you don't have to worry about aggression or biting later on. I guess I'm really nervous and anal about making sure I care for my rats properly to prevent or curb any inappropriate behavior..


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## Cyrix

Hi Rat Daddy, could I get your advice on our rats? I really love them and I have been having a ton of fun with them but I keep worrying we are doing everything wrong and it's starting to really bring down my mood. My girlfriend and I live together and have two rats, no other pets.

Nibbles is somewhere around 8-9 weeks and Jesse somewhere around 10-11 weeks. They live in a 6'x10' walk-in closet that we converted to a playroom. There are two cages in the room, one that is too small for both of them and one that is too big and they can fit through the bars, so we just let them free-range in the room 24/7. We keep the door open but the bottom is obstructed with boxes; they've never escaped.

Jesse is very skittish and hyper - he was afraid of us for weeks and it was very difficult to coax him out to play. Nibbles is much braver and more social; he was friendly with us almost immediately and likes to climb on us, play in our clothes, etc. A few weeks ago we had them both doing great and Jesse was being nearly as social as Nibbles, often climbing on our shoulders and occasionally our heads. They wouldn't always come when called but seemed comfortable around us.

Recently we've been trying to teach them to be picked up and petted, rewarding them with treats afterward. Jesse is impossible to pick up, too fast and wriggly, but Nibbles will put up with it sometimes and occasionally even jumps into a hand if he expects treats. Neither likes to be petted; Jesse puts up with it slightly more but Nibbles spins in a circle and tries to find treats in the hand doing the petting. If being petted while eating a treat they often run away.

There were several days last week where I was only able to play with them for about 20 minutes because I had too much schoolwork and homework (the GF was threatening to break up with me for not spending enough time with her - as if I had a choice!). I don't know if that affected anything. I think she's also been playing with them less. Generally we give them 1-2 hours of playtime with us, sometimes both in there together and sometimes separately.

I feel like our attempts to teach them being picked up or petted are backfiring - Jesse is getting much more skittish and it's harder to coax him out. If I try to make him do anything for a treat, he usually runs away instead. He won't climb on my shoulder anymore, mostly ignores me calling his name or saying "come get treat", and spends a lot of time trying to hide under the fleece blankets. He was 'bullying' Nibbles for a few weeks (trying to playfight Nibbles while Nibbles wasn't interested) but Nibbles has gotten stronger and keeps kicking Jesse's butt despite being smaller, although they still trade off winning. I've also noticed Nibbles hoard all of the food in his favorite cardboard box, while Jesse tries to stash food under the blankets.

Over the last few days they seem to spend most of the time they are awake playfighting. Even if we are in the room with treats they'll be going at it constantly. Again, Jesse seems unwilling to work for treats, less willing to climb on us, and often more preoccupied with fighting or getting under the blankets. Today Nibbles was doing basic tricks (climbing on my hand or shoulder) for treats, while I could barely lure Jesse onto my lap and he would run away if I tried to pet him or lead him to my shoulder. He ended up stealing treats from Nibbles stash while Nibbles was playing.

One thing I've noticed is that Jesse has a huge amount of trouble getting through the bars on the big cage as he's getting bigger and he seems... depressed about it? He would rarely use the front entrance before, but now I often see him try to climb in through the back or climb up top and realize he can't drop through onto his shelf. He'll then sit there on top of the cage for a while and not struggle much if I pet him.

Being new rat owners, we haven't tried immersion yet. It seems like every day several new rat owners who have tried immersion are posting that their rats are scared of them and they don't know what to do. I thought trust training would be a better approach for us as new owners but now I feel like things are going badly. Or is our rats' behavior normal?

Since we have two owners with two rats, how would we approach immersion? You mostly describe immersion as a one-on-one approach - can both owners be treated as the alpha rat or would the rats only accept one alpha? Should we attempt immersion with both rats together or separately? Should we do it in a different room than the play room?

Thank you for your expertise and any advice you share. I want to be a good owner but I feel overwhelmed.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually given the situation you are reporting, your rats strike me as pretty normal. Trust training tends to take several weeks up to a few months to work and longer when you don't put in several sessions every day. 

This isn't a thread on trust training, but I suppose folks should understand something about it. First of all "trust training" is a super cool name, I wish I had thought of it first. Everyone wants to trust their rats and to be trusted... so it's the first choice of many new rat owners by default. It has a name appeal similar to "get rich quick", but like "get rich quick" trust training isn't exactly easy. Trust training's single strongest virtue is that it addresses the very special needs of shell shocked and terrified, super shy rats. The kind of rats that spent a few weeks in with a python and didn't get eaten. Many very low stress, multiple times a day shorter sessions can bring these rats around over the course of weeks to months. On the other hand, if you are in any way inconsistent, you make no progress at all. And trust training has the dangerous side effect that normal rats can get aggressive while you are trying to teach trust while they are establishing dominance over you. Many of our original extreme immersions were done with trust training victims. 

After talking to several trust training "experts" it turns out that they actually do a much more balanced propitiatory approach. Most did longer sessions, most never let their rats push them around and most actually were pretty good at communicating with their rats. They just didn't have a name for what they did, so they called what they were doing "trust training" too. Some haven't changed their approach, but now call it immersion. 

With very shy rats the techniques of trust training and immersion might even overlap to some degree.. immersion theory never rejects anything that works. But immersion has a theory that trust training doesn't. Immersion is based on communication and an integrated social structure for a mixed species family. So by understanding your objectives and working with your rats to achieve your goals as mutual participants you can adjust your tactics on the fly to build an actual relationship... 

So, now you've trust trained, and like most folks you were a little inconsistent and your rats more or less trust you, but you aren't communicating much. Your rats more or less play with each other and take treats from you and run around on you when you visit them. 

So why don't they communicate with you more? Why don't they like being on you and why don't they like being picked up? Mainly because it's not natural for rats to ride around on humans, or to get picked up or to communicate with us. This is something rats have to learn and it's something you have to teach them. 

Stress and learning go hand in hand for rats, rats and humans resist change. You should expect your rats to resist your efforts to better socialize them. Immersion takes advantage of your rats disorientation when they get to your house. As there are no established norms, you teach them what to expect right from the first moment in your house. We carry our rats into our home and then my 8 year old daughter carries them around for the entire rest of the day... There's no such thing as NOT being carried by humans as an option. By the end of our first day of immersion our rats have hardly been put down other than to be played and interacted with. Our rats learn that it's safe to be handled and fun to ride around on us. And most of all they realize that we want to interact with them and they start trying to communicate their desires to us as well as trying to understand what we are teaching them.

Your problem is now compounded because your rats are already established in a social dynamic that isn't centered around you. Now you have to shake up your rats understanding of the rules to change them. And they may resist change.

If I may give you an example... we have a 11 month old girl rat named Max she was hand raised from 2 weeks old by humans and her former roommate was old and had a large tumor and didn't play much anymore. And after losing her best friend, Amelia pretty much spent the last 7 months of her life being reclusive and fading away. Max got very independent and got pretty much used to being alone. She comes out to play every day sometimes a couple of times, but then keeps to herself. We brought her a new friend Cloud, a playful energetic rat pup... So when Cloud got old enough to start intro's Max attacked her... Then Max stalked her and chased her to drive her off, then Max more or less got tired of chasing her, so now Cloud invades Max's private nest and pokes Max in the face until Max gets angry and chases her... Yesterday after two weeks of insanity, Cloud tried to preen Max before Max started chasing her... Max is resisting change with all of her might, but Cloud keeps poking the bear... And every day Cloud is closer to moving into Max's nest with her. Naturally, Max can easily kill Cloud so Cloud has to back off and run away until Max cools down so this is taking a lot longer than immersion with humans. But the basics are the same, Cloud engages Max, Max communicates that she wants to be left alone and Cloud backs off... then reengages Max and this will continue until Max finally understands that Cloud wants to be her friend. Now keep in mind Max is unusually stubborn. Normally intros are over in a single day around here, but due to the size difference in the rats and the fact that Max never really had a rat playmate and she's had 11 months to get used to things the way they were this is taking way longer. Almost like trust training this is method of touch and run is likely to take about a month... I could accelerate the process by locking both rats in a small space together and doing more of an immersion approach... but Max is so much bigger than Cloud that Cloud just might get hurt.

So, if you keep doing what you are doing, except several times a day for at least a half hour each you will continue to make slow progress. If you break training your rats will backslide and become more independent of you... 

Now alternatively, you can immerse your rats... that means a long session or a few long sessions. You engage, they respond your reply and it's "rinse and repeat" until your rats get it. But once your rats understand that you are part of the family your daily play sessions are going to be more fun and you can take them with you around the house to explore together. You have to break down the dynamic you have established and replace it with a relationship you want and overcome the resistance.

But what about what your rats want? How about if they don't want to play with you? Again an example might help... When my daughter was 2 years old I took her to a buffet and I offered her shrimp for the very first time... She had never seen a shrimp and she resisted even tasting one.. Getting that first shrimp into her mouth was no easy trick, but the second one was a whole lot easier and by the fifth, she decided she really liked shrimp. Sure your rats may resist playing with you, but once they see how much fun you are and see all of the cool places you will carry them to they will change their minds. 

As to doing immersion with multiple people and multiple rats, I always include my daughter. Two people working with two rats is absolutely fine. Remember, nothing happens when you aren't engaging, yes you can give your rats some time to rest and eat and pee but you make progress whenever you are hands on engaged with them. Try to be playful. Try to think like a rat and try to get them to understand that you are just another giant, awkward, oddly shaped rat and try to get them to understand that you want to play too. You missed your best window of opportunity to make this easy, but you haven't lost the battle, don't get discouraged and be persistent... Cloud has lost a few chunks of fur and a tiny piece of her ear but she most certainly hasn't given up on Max. It's just a matter of time before both rats are napping together and preening each other like best friends... No matter how much Max resists, change is good and she will be much happier with a rat friend again even if she doesn't realize it yet.

Best luck


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## Cyrix

Thank you so much for your patience, expertise, and thorough responses. You are truly a godsend.

The GF was out of town for a few days so we haven't tackled full immersion yet but I've been trying to be in their faces more and it seems like it's helping. They don't seem put off if I do something they don't like and I feel like they're hiding less.

A few questions before we start the immersion, if you don't mind:

Their fight are getting a bit rougher and I think they both are a bit sore; they are squeaking a lot when fighting and occasionally Jesse squeaks even from Nibbles touching him in a non-hostile manner. I did find a few tiny spots of blood on some tissue paper they had pulled into nesting area, but neither has a visible wound. If they are fighting and one is squeaking enough to worry me, what's the proper course of action? Right now I've been pulling them apart, then getting low to the ground and getting in the offender's face. It seems to deter fights better than just pushing the offender off the squeaking rat.

Secondly, how do you recommend going about picking them up? I simply cannot scoop Jesse and I can only scoop Nibbles when he knows there is baby food on my finger. If I scoop them slow they just dodge; fast and they jump out of my hand, sometimes falling more than a foot and landing badly on hard objects (no injuries thankfully). The only way I can even semi-reliably pick them up is by wrapping my hand around them but of course they hate it and I feel bad doing it.


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## Rat Daddy

The entire socialization experience prepares rats for easier handling and accepting your role as their alpha... read as parent not dictator. Once you do immersion and spend more time with your rats they will become more trusting and accepting of you and of your handling. As your rats will eventually need to be handled you might have to get insistent on it, but after you work on being their friend and leader first. Make friends establish your social order before giving commands or making demands... the same goes for breaking up fights, but you are on the right track.. Rats will always squabble a little, but when both your rats know the humans are in charge they won't fight for the alpha job that you already have. 

When I shout "stop fighting" my rats stop fighting: That doesn't mean the big one will get off the smaller one but she will freeze in place until she certain I'm gone or until I pull her off. It's like when you have kids and you tell them to stop fighting. On the up side my big rat could easily kill the smaller one, but I'm guessing she knows that would be against the house rules.

And this might sound stupid, but rats and humans tend to listen to you better when they love trust and respect you as their leader first rather than a stranger giving orders.

Make sense?


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## cagedbirdsinging

So, I have a few thoughts to throw into this thread that I follow closely both as a moderator and as a fellow immersion user. I have no clue why there is so much controversy over this method of training. Rat Daddy coined the term for us, but he will tell you that he didn't invent this. RATS invented this.

When you have had enough rats in your life and have done dozens of successful introductions, you will begin to notice a pattern. There is a very specific way in which successful introductions play out.

If you've never experienced a wildly successful introduction, I'll lay it out for you. We start with a small, neutral space. You don't introduce rats in a huge, open room. Pretty much everyone knows that much! But, here's what tends to happen next. Your alpha swarms the new rat, getting up in its face to greet them. The new rat tends to not be a fan of this! The alpha doesn't care, and just keeps pestering the new rat while he/she sniffs the bum, examines the extremities, etc. The new rat squeaks? Alpha doesn't care. The alpha keeps on pestering, stressing the new rat out until eventually, it gives up and accepts the fact that it will be sniffed, groomed, and knocked around until the alpha is satisfied. In a few hours, when the new rat has surrendered himself to the inevitable, they all pass out in a pile.

Here's what doesn't happen. The alpha doesn't approach the new rat for a few minutes each day, placing its hand in the cage to allow some sniffing and a treat. Sure, it may work eventually, but it isn't nearly as effective and bonding as immersion. What takes weeks for the new rat owner doing trust training, an alpha rat can complete in a matter of hours.

Now, as the new alpha of your rat pack, what method are you going to choose? Will you go with the method of introductions that rats themselves have invented? I will.


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## Toblerina

Quick question!  Should I re-immerse my young boys? I did an immersion session about a week ago and they both seem to trust me... Not sure if they totally see me as a sentient being they communicate with though! Some days they groom me... Some days they don't. The reason I ask is because they were being much more adventurous and curious a few days ago... Now when they're out they just hide in my jumper, and they don't seem so keen on coming out. They also seem to be sleeping a lot more. What's going on? I really want them to want to come out and to have fun... They don't seem too bothered about doing anything at the moment.... Any help appreciated! Thanks x


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## Rat Daddy

As rats get more competent they get more independent so sometimes they actually go through phases where they will spend less time with you than they did at first.... If you want to keep your relationship strong and interactive have long and fun play sessions every day... It doesn't necessarily have to be an immersion session but don't forget what you learned about communication... immersion is the beginning, then comes training, then comes just being a family.

Keep in mind that when everyone is busy, a family can grow apart in the same house... There's been a lot on my plate lately and I haven't spent much time with my ratty girls... So at least once every day they check in with me to say hi before slinking off to their own secret lives around my home. They live free range in the house... The other day I was playing with my daughter and the rats saw us having fun and they immediately rushed out to join in. Its not that our rats don't want to be with us, it's just that they have more important things to do than hang out and watch me type this message to you... Rats will become more independent as they become more familiar with your home, but the more you play with them, the more they will play with you...


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## Cyrix

We tried a 1.5 hour long immersion session with Nibbles and Jesse. We pulled them into the bathroom, which seemed to suitably throw them off balance. They were both scared at first and pooped everywhere. When they seemed a bit better, we started petting and skrit ching them a lot and I tried to get low and chase them around, but the bathroom wasn't really big enough for me to do much on my hands and knees (I'm 6'2"). My girlfriend remained seated cross-legged for most of the session. We ended up in a good-cop bad-cop pattern where I did more of the chasing and skritching and she did more of the gentle petting and giving them treats. She was more concerned about their level of fear than I was; I thought it was good to have them be confused and uncomfortable but Nibbles was just terrified and kept trying to squeeze out of the bathroom under the door even though we were being pretty gentle with him. Eventually he seemed to calm down some but still didn't like being petted or skritched. For the most part attempting to pick up either one did not go well; I did manage to snuggle each of them against my chest and talk softly to them for 10 seconds or so before they climbed out.

Eventually they started grooming themselves by the door and I was able to skritch them both on the side and belly. Afterwards they laid down next to each other and I skritched them behind the ears; I thought they were submitting but I think they had just been planning to go to sleep. We gave them some treats and they played around more. Jesse seemed to submit to me once; I was down low near him and he looked at me and laid flat and let me skritch his neck for a bit.

The next day, Jesse seemed a little bit more social and trusting; he was climbing on us more and particularly on our shoulders. He even stayed on our shoulders to eat his treats, instead of running away like before! However, that's the only change I noticed. My girlfriend accidentally stepped on Nibbles when he was sleeping under the blanket in the doorway and he ran and hid and wouldn't come out for an hour.

Today, they both seem back to how they were before the immersion, except that Nibbles is more afraid of being petted. He used to spin in a circle and try to check my hand for treats if I tried to pet him but now he just runs away immediately.

Do you know of any good videos of immersion training so we can compare our lame attempts to someone who is doing it right? Thanks again for your expertise. I hope we can assert the social order before too long.


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## Rat Daddy

There are a few short vids on youtube on immersion, which are linked from the immersion thread. And btw stepping on your rat can slow down the socialization process just a little. But don't beat yourself up over it, we've all done it. It's not something anyone does on purpose... but you should always try to watch for your rat when you walk in the dark or open and close a door, a door will kill a rat faster than stepping on it. It has to do with leverage.

Unless your rats are behaving aggressively, don't worry too much about getting them to submit to you... First try to get them to interact with you, any communication is good communication. Try being playful. And I like the tag team approach... I'm 6'2" also, I let my daughter do the chasing while I'm base as in a game of tag. Keep using their names, which will be useful when you start training them and calling them. Engage your rats like a child or puppy and follow your gut instincts... your girlfriend has intuition that as a guy you most likely don't, ask her what she thinks the rats are thinking or feeling.

And yes, you are right not to get too bent our of shape over the rats being a little stressed. Learning and change always requires stress. Remember rats are designed for stress. Every day wild rats encounter humans, cats, snakes, dogs, owls and a host of stressful things in their pursuit of food and water. They might get stressed, but they react and adapt and move on with no harm done. When your rats really get stressed they will preen and think and figure a way to solve their problem. Eventually they will decide to test you and interact with you more and that you are a friend.

One and a half hours is a pretty short session for immersion, you really should push for more progress in a single session, but it's better than really short sessions of less than an hour. Remember until you make progress each session resets to where yesterdays session started off at, you always go back to the last milestone... So if you don't make progress in a session, it's the same session all over again next time. 

If I put you in a room with a friendly bear, you will hide and run until you realize it is friendly. If I take you out before you learn the bear is friendly, the next time I put you together, you are back to running for your life. But once you realize it's a friendly bear, the next time you see him you go right up to him and give him a big hug. That's what I mean about milestones or progress.

Some rats aren't thrilled about getting picked up, but they get used to it and will even ask for it if it suits their needs. Max prefers to weeble along under her own power. But when I'm handy and she wants to get up into her cage she's ask for a lift into the cage. If I'm going down stairs to get food, she'll hitch a ride on my shoulder. She never protests getting picked up, basically because it's been happening to her since she was 2 weeks old. She might duck off if she thinks I'm going the wrong way or doing something she doesn't want to do, but that's more about why I am picking her up, not the picking up itself. Picking up and carrying around is such a basic thing around our house from the minute the rats get carried in, there's no debate over it. I just asked my /8 year old daughter if she ever thought about whether the rats want to be picked up, she said "No, I just pick them up." Sometimes you just take the lead, and your rats learn to live with it... 

I think you are headed in the right direction, some of the things you mentioned sounds like your rats are really not too uncomfortable with you already, It's no home run, but you are on base... Remember, engage, understand the response and reply accordingly. And try to push your sessions as long as possible.

Best luck.


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## artistwolf

This is such a useful conversation! But I still have a few questions. I am probably getting my rats off of Craigslist, so they will be already socialized to at least some extent. So what do I do? Should I still do immersion? The rats will probably think that their old owner is their Alpha! How can I change that? Also, I was wondering about leashes and harnesses. Before they have learned to heel properly, would it be okay to put on a harness and leash? I can make it out of a soft fabric if that would be better. Also can I carry them around with me in a purse or something? I have an old one which is small and has nothing in it. Could I use it as a carrier? My last question is, I will pick them up from the person's house in thier cage, so what should I do while driving home? It will probably take at least 15 minutes to get home. I'm 15 years old and no one else in my family will really be interested in my rats (except maybe my older sister, who might want to hold it every once in a while). So I'm pretty much alone in this. My family might think it is weird if I'm talking to my rats as we drive home, but I'll do it if it would help at all. Thanks in advance for any help!


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## Rat Daddy

First off, assume nothing about rats from Craig's list! Many people who have screwed up biting rats dump them on Craig's List with a free cage. Most folks with happy well adjusted rats don't give them away. Ask questions before you go to see them and don't get the bum's rush, get to handle and know the rats before you take them home. As you are new to rats, believe me you aren't ready for screwed up biters. You deserve for your first rat experience to be a good one... Try and find a couple friendly rat pups to start with. You can still get the cage from Craig's list. Most people loved to meet our friendly, charismatic Fuzzy Rat. She was charming and engaging to everyone she met. Most people never realized that she was actually quite strong and fast and agile and she had teeth that could bite down right through to the bone in their fingers. Happy, well socialized rats (almost) never bite. They are kiddie safe and friendly. But like a pet pit bull terrier, they can really hurt you or someone in your family. Extreme immersion can fix most screwed up rats, but it's a nightmare experience you really shouldn't go through. I'm pretty good socializing rats, but I have an 8 year old daughter in my house and I wouldn't adopt a biting rat. There are folks that thrive on challenges, they have experience and don't mind sacrificing a few fingers to save a mistreated animal... These are not rats for you and your little sister. Rat pups from Craig's list... maybe, adult rats with a free cage should raise warning flags. I'm not saying you shouldn't check them out, but don't assume they are well adjusted and pre-socialized. As to what to do when you get them home, lets see what you adopt first, and then we will deal with how best to socialize them. Ideally they should be friendly and healthy pups and you should just settle in with them for a few hours and get to meet each other and play until they are your friends... That's the kind of first rat ownership experience every new rat owner should have.

Rats are designed to escape from tight spaces, they can even spread their ribs to slide under doors and such... Leashes and harnesses almost never work. I wrote a thread on shoulder rats and outdoor activities, you can learn how to train your rats to go outdoors there... Don't short cut the process or you will lose or kill your rats. There's a very good reason you don't see lots of folks carrying their rats around outdoors or walking them on leashes. It's a great way to get them killed... I'm working with two rats outdoors now, and I've trained other shoulder rats, it isn't as easy as it looks. Things go wrong very fast, and your first mistake may very well be your rat's last. Training a shoulder rat takes good planning and lots of time and you need to start out with the right rat. Then there's a very rapid learning curve. It's great fun, but it's a big responsibility.

My daughter usually plays with the rats in the car on the way home... I'm used to rats running around the car when I drive, for safety's sake you can keep them in the cage and talk to them or reach in and pet them until you are home.


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## artistwolf

Thanks!! I have actually been looking at a pair of rats who cost a little bit of money. I'll make sure to thoroughly check them out before rushing into a decision. I will make sure I email extensively with any proposed buyers. I will just pretty much do what you said then!  I'll probably make another thread when I get them.


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## Rat Daddy

You can't beat a friendly and healthy pair of rats, even if they come from a snake food bin. Sickly rats can cost hundreds of dollars in vet bills in a single day and screwed up rats can turn your life into a living nightmare. 

Remember rats are big animals in a small package... they are fast and agile and have very sharp teeth. A friendly pit bull terrier makes for a wonderful child's pet a screwed up one makes local headlines. A couple of great rats will be the best pets and friends you will remember for your whole life. A $500.00 vet bill or an emergency room visit for your little sister is going to make your live a whole lot harder. Leaved the sick and problem rats to the experts. You aren't doing the rat any favors if you can't fix it. 

As a new rat owner, you need the best, friendliest healthiest and generally nicest rat you can find. It doesn't matter what it looks like, except brown eyed (natural eye color) rats see better and can go into direct sunlight so they are more desirable if you ever want to take your rats outside during the day. A free cage isn't worth taking any chances with the wrong rats. The right rats are priceless. 

And to be clear, I can fix more rats than many rat owners can, I wrote this guide, and we've fixed any number of screwed up rats, and I go out of my way to find the perfect rats sometimes passing by many charity cases I feel sorry for and many more average rats. I'm not heartless, but I have an 8 year old daughter to consider and I know if I start out with the perfect rat, my life with be much safer and easier as I train it to be exceptional. 

Mostly, take your time and handle the rats when you meet them. They should be bright eyed, and active and inquisitive. Friendly is a very big bonus. When you find the right rats, pounce on them and take them home whatever it takes, you won't be sorry. 

Best luck.


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## Aeyna

Rat Daddy, I've been reading through this thread for a few days now, and trying to apply lots of things to my bonding with my new rats. With Olivia and Penny, it's worked great. Olivia falls asleep on me and lets me pet her while sleeping, both Olivia and Penny groom my hands when I reach into the cage, and as soon as the door is open they are up my arm, on my shoulders and ready to play. They are starting to learn their names, and if I say their name and make clicking sounds at them, they've learned to come, so I can get them close if they are getting too far away and too close to a cat that I can't reach. 

My problem child is Gadget. We got her from a couple who said that she was too shy, skittish, and didn't like being handled. I've found that that's not the case, she just has some trust issues. We've been working with her, and we're at the point where she loves to hide in our shirts. While there, she sleeps, grooms, and hangs out. She has started to peak out a little, and sometimes venture out, but then runs back really quick. If Penny is nearby, she'll follow after her and cuddle as if to comfort Gadget. It seems like Gadget always wants to be under some sort of fabric (I've ordered a bonding pouch that should be here tomorrow, I'm hoping she'll like it). Is there a way to get her comfortable with running around with the other girls? 

Also, today I looked into my shirt to see how she was, and got bit on the nose. It only drew a little blood, but it hurt and she got bopped on the nose and told no right away. I'm wondering if it's a monkey see monkey do thing, because Olivia and Penny lick my nose all the time, like kisses. And I've noticed that Gadget has been learning from their interactions with us, for example, when I reach in the cage in the morning, Gadget has started to come out of the igloo to see what the fuss is all about. She'll watch them groom me, then come over and bite softly. It never hurts, and it's always really slow and doesn't feel aggressive. It does seem like she watches what her cages mates are doing, and then tries to follow suit, but with teeth. I'm not sure how to handle it, because it's not really an attack. Even when she got my nose, she moved very slowly like she was saying hello, then bit. I'm not sure if the immersion training where you are aggressive and don't back down will work because she doesn't fight. 

Do you have any suggestions?


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## Rat Daddy

Rats have a very broad spectrum of personalities. Some are natural and some caused by mistreatment. It would be nice to have simple categories as in shy, aggressive, friendly etc... But reality means that a rat with a friendly gregarious personality might be mistreated and become distrustful and thereby appear to be a shy or an aggressive rat. Normal shyness is often caused by a rat being hypersensitive to it's environment and isn't something that's treatable. Yes you can keep things quiet and try to avoid loud noises or sudden motion, but certain rats, like wild type rats are going to be reclusive to avoid over-stimulation.... A normal friendly domestic rat that has been mistreated may also appear shy, but can actually more easily overcome it's issues with lots of work and patience on the part of it's humans. In either case, luckily the treatment is similar, only the outcome will differ in degree of success. We hand raised a part wild rat and she became quite friendly towards us, but if there was a loud noise even outside the house she would evaporate into thin air. That's just the way she was wired. If we called both our rats at the time, the domestic rat walked from room to room right across the middle of the room, the other darted from one hiding place to the next or slunk through the shadows. Strangely the part wild would be up on my hand first, but I never saw her coming.

First, you are correct that Gadget is learning from your other rats, this is normal and second you were right to correct her. If she's breaking your skin because she doesn't understand how thin your skin is, this should fix the problem. I know I sound like a broken record, but biting for whatever reason is never OK, ever and never! If your rat bites your neighbor's toddler, you can be looking at a very expensive emergency room visit, not to mention that humans have sensitive parts that might not regrow easily, like their eyes... Biting rats can be a very serious liability and it's the most common cause for healthy rats to be re-homed or even PTS. All biting needs to be addressed immediately. It is a matter of your rats life or death. So whether it's little nips or out and out aggression it goes right to the top of your priority list. For now, a gentle bop might do the trick, but if it continues treat the problem as if your rat's life depends on it. If your rat takes out your neighbor's kid's eye, or yours, you won't get a do-over to fix the problem later. Again, not that your problem seems too severe, but it needs to be priority one, never-the-less.

As you got Gadget second hand, we might as well assume she wan't treated right. I'm not suggesting that her previous family mistreated her on purpose, perhaps it was neglect, or it might have been worse, but most likely there was a reason she was afraid of them, and now you by association. This will take some time to overcome. Fuzzy Rat adopted a 7 month old neglected rat that never really got right. After 7 months of being left alone in a cage with only another rat to keep her company, she really didn't expect humans to want to spend too much time with her. She took good care of Fuzzy Rat when she got sick, but otherwise was a no maintenance animal. In fact for much of her life we hardly saw her. She was friendly and she didn't bite, but for the most part she just wanted to be left alone. Sometimes she would come out for a little attention, but after just a few minutes she would take off again, like she was afraid of overstaying her welcome. She was a very fine rat, with a nice personality and she was smart. But simply put she was never "normal", she was always easily frightened, never got confident or outdoor competent and she was pretty much what we got her as... Fuzzy Rat's companion animal; read as "our rat's pet rat". 

For right now, discourage any biting, use appropriate force to communicate that this behavior will absolutely never be tolerated (obviously with love in your heart) and this should fix itself promptly. If Gadget becomes more aggressive, so do you. Hopefully it won't come to that. Don't worry too much about stressing or upsetting Gadget. You can worry about mending any hurt feelings later. You can always work with a shy or even mistreated rat that isn't biting, but a rat that bites simply shouldn't be kept in your home. Once you have resolved the biting or nipping issue, then you can work on the shyness issues or other issues. Shy rats take time. Those that have been mistreated will warm up to you slowly as you go, but they will improve and become more brave and competent with constant reassurance. Hyper-sensitive rats will have limits, they will also be friendly under quite conditions, but they will never get over loud noises and such.

The last issue is that some rats have rather poor vision, pink and ruby eyed rats can have awful eyesight, they still shouldn't bite, but they will always be more wary of their environment and prefer to be under cover. Even totally blind rats should not be permitted to bite.



Best luck.


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## Aeyna

You might be right about the eyesight, She does move in a kinda cautious way, and the more I watch her around the cage this morning, the more I think that she might have less eyesight than her cage mates. Before going somewhere, like off of a ledge, she stretches out her neck really far and looks for a long time before moving. 

The people I got her from say that they only had her for a few months, she was in a 50 gallon fish tank (they really wanted to sell that to me, I declined), they said that she like to barricade herself into her igloo at night, and she was alone. Also, she is missing the tip of her tail, they claim that she was always like that and they're not sure what happened, but it could be a clue as to why she's so cautious. 

I have another question about discouraging the biting. When I go and open the cage and let the girls come say hello, she is starting to come over to my hand, slowly move her head, and I start to worry about getting bit. Usually I can just twitch a finger and she backs off because she doesn't like movement. What I'm worried about is that if I punish her when I think she's about to bite me, she'll never learn that it's okay to come to my hand. But I also don't really like the idea of letting her bite me so that I can teach her that it's bad. 

Just now I was saying good morning and letting Olivia and Penny climb all over my arms and shoulders, and she was trying to say hi, but I was worried about biting. I moved away before she could bite, and then reached up and pet her to let her know I still love her. She then went down into the igloo, got all of her fluff and made a giant pile in front of the door to her igloo. As I'm typing this, she's still working on it. I know that she's trying to tell me something, I'm just not sure what.


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## Rat Daddy

I'd say that she's saying... if you don't want to play with me, I'll just hunker down in my nest. I've seen this behavior when I'm too busy to play with my girls, they shuffle off like I've hurt their feelings... Sometimes they don't come back out for the rest of the day... 

And yes you do describe a living situation conducive to screwing up a rat at gadget's former home. I know some folks think I'm just a little bit cruel regarding my opinion on rescue and Craig's list rats when I tell new rat owners to avoid them. In my experience many rats that people are getting rid of haven't been great house pets or best furry friends. Mostly that's the human's fault. But people don't give up their best little buddies too often, they re-home the rat that bites or the rat that nobody plays with or cares about. So, you wind up with an animal that comes to your house with problems, first caused by being torn away from their first 'forever' family and second because that first family neglected, mistreated or abused them. Certain people live for these kinds of challenges and often their hard work is rewarded. But new rat owners are ill prepared to fix what someone else broke. Statistically few teenagers get adopted as compared to babies. Most new parents don't want kids that come with anger issues and drug problems. It's not that these kids can't be helped, but they are 10 times the work than a well behaved toddler or a newborn. You did a very fine thing by giving Gadget a good forever home, unfortunately now you get to pay the price for your kindness. So now that you are committed to the project all you can really do is to focus on getting through the hard part and try and get through to the good stuff ahead.

Now I have two pieces of conflicting advise for you. First of all you always have to handle rats with confidence. Hesitant hand movements tend to get you bit. That's true of all animals. There's something about confident and self assured movement that inspires confidence in animals and tends to prevent bites. I was one of the only customers ever allowed to reach into the feeder rat bins at my pet shop. And I even did a demonstration at a chain pet shop. I tend to reach in with some certainty and rats will either submit or run away, either way I don't get bit. People that half heatedly reach in and pause and withdraw multiple times tend to get bitten more often. I think animals can sense fear or at least get confused by it. It's more a matter of how you move than how you smell. As a kid I used to catch snakes, one day I came across a really odd one, it was all light tan with no markings... It was obviously some kind of genetic morph. So I went to scoop it out of the lake with a net, and it didn't move... so I decided to just pick it out of the water with my hand, and in fact I just about had my hand around it's neck and it still didn't move. I had never seen a snake that didn't try to escape or strike. It just ignored me completely... suddenly I was quite overcome with a feeling of dread. Why isn't this thing afraid of me? I began to wonder... and the closer I got to lifting it out of the water the more it's calm demeanor unnerved me. I finally just left it in peace and rowed away. The fact that the snake wasn't afraid of me tapped into some kind of primordial fear in me that prevented me from catching a very novel reptile. I've used this trick in reverse with both dogs and bears. I just calmly stand my ground and both bears and dogs tend to either back away or in the case of dogs, act friendly. Some years ago my daughter saw a black bear down the road and ran after it, the bear ran away climbed over a tall fence and disappeared into the woods. Yes, there was something subtly peculiar and a little bit disturbing about a 40 lb 5 year old little girl chasing a full grown black bear, but it goes to the point, the bear figured if something is chasing it, it best run away. Now, before anyone hands me the worst parent of the year award... again... kids do things faster than you can stop them and I did go after her, but as the chase was going in the right direction right from the start and black bears are a whole lot faster than little girls it wasn't nearly as frightening as it sounds, my daughter never really got close enough to catch the bear. You never have a video camera when you need one. And btw, don't send your kids out to chase away bears, although it actually funny to watch when it happened, I can't even imagine how badly things can go wrong if you do it once too often.

The second thing is that with my part wild rat, I introduced myself first by talking to her so she knew it was me, then I would let her sniff me, and then she would lower her head for skritches and I would skritch her neck and I knew she was ready to be picked up and handled. This was the same process that anyone touching her, except my daughter, had to go through. I actually carried her out on a few occasions and let her meet people, but it was always speak, sniff, touch. This trick works with blind rats too. In the case of my part wild rat, she clearly lowered her head to indicate she was ready to be touched. One person who she didn't know once grabbed her, he payed dearly for this mistake in lots of blood loss.

But what you are experiencing is the downward cycle that biting rats go through, they bite, they get handled less and less, they become more alone and anti-social and then they bite more and more fiercely. It's a feedback loop. It starts with nips and winds up with full on aggression.

You might try oven mitts, hocky gloves or other hand protection to give yourself more confidence to handle Gadget. That's what many people use for extreme immersion. It lets you move with self assurance and take charge without sacrificing a finger or two. But you do have to keep working with Gadget to overcome her issues.


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## Aeyna

Okay, I'm ready to be brave and confident and hopefully help Gadget. I truly think that Gadget is a good rat. You can tell that she's learning, that she wants to engage in activities like her cage mates, and that she tries to be good. Hopefully she'll continue to open up. 

I had to bop her on the nose this morning for grabbing my finger with teeth, and she looked at me, then went and sat in the corner of the cage behind her igloo. So I think she gets that its wrong and feels bad (or she's mad for getting bopped on the nose), and then later when I was playing with her, she didn't try to bite again. I think we're slowly going to make progress. 

Thank you so much for all of your advice. I really think it's going to work.


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## Rat Daddy

If every rat owner that adopted a neglected or abused rat prepared themselves for a real horror show, most would be happily impressed on how easy and quickly they can fix their rats through immersion and immersion theory based methods. But people don't think about how hard it can be to work with rats other people have hurt and screwed up and they expect to get well adjusted pre-socialized rats and they aren't prepared for what happens when they get their new rats home. If you prepare for the worst and hope for the best and stay resolved and consistent you will usually succeed. I'm betting you will make it work with Gadget, remember oven mitts or thick gloves can come in handy.


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## SGxyz

Hi! Thanks for this amazing guide!

Will this work with rats you’ve had for a while? I’ve had my two girls for a couple of months, and I think they’re about six months old (their previous owner got them from a pet store). They seem to trust me fine – they scramble around in my clothes, they groom my fingers and my face and my ears, and they play in my bed for a couple of hours each night while I sit with them and chat, or play, or just tinker with my guitar while they climb all over it! However, I just can’t get them to really respond to me. Kimchi is doing better; she still doesn't know her name but she does respond to kissy noises. Soju is much more nervous; she doesn't respond to anything and seems to ignore me if she’s not actively exploring me. Neither of them are particularly happy about being picked up; Kimchi will put up a bit of token resistance but Soju really squeaks and squeals and still pees a bit if I try to lift her up.

Will immersion training help with this, or should I be looking at something different? I’m not sure where to start to be honest!


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## Rat Daddy

Immersion as discussed in this thread is tailored generally towards socialization, but the principles of communication and methods like the long session don't suddenly stop working after your rats have been generally socialized to you. 

In training your rat to be picked up, a long session of coaxing using voice and treats and engagement will get your rats over their fear of being picked up faster than if you either don't do pick them up or do it only occasionally. Repeating their names over and over when addressing them will help them learn their names faster. Methods like engage, reply and respond to establish communication always work. Encouraging certain activities while discouraging others will continue to improve your rats behavior. 

Most importantly it all starts with the immersion mindset. Before you accomplish anything with your rats, you have to start by recognizing that your rats are very smart animals and they can learn. And then you have to put in the effort to make them understand you and what you want from them. It also helps if you try and understand them. 

I've seen several well trained and well behaved rats, and in each case the human believed he or she could actually teach their rats and then set out to do it. I have also seen screwed up or untrained rats that belong to humans with the mindset that "they are only pocket pets" and can't learn. As an example, if you have a human baby and decide it can't be potty trained or educated you will eventually wind up with an adult in diapers. But parents often spend weeks or even months dedicated to teaching their children to use the toilet. When parents don't give up, kids become potty trained and don't need to wear diapers to their prom. 

Now, as a second part of this answer, is that it will be a little harder to teach your rats now than if you started right away when you got them. When a rat or a human goes to a new place, it realizes and quite naturally accepts the "new rules" of the new place. After a couple of months you have already set the "norm" and your rats have gotten used to it. They are not going to understand change at this point and may even struggle against it. It's like some new policy at work. You have been doing something a certain way for 10 years and now someone changes the policy. Something simple like changing the company lunch hour to staggered lunches can cause the staff to revolt. Why should I have to take lunch at 11:00 AM or 1:00 PM someone will ask, when we closed at noon for an hour everything was better. In fact, I've seen smaller changes than this throw an office into chaos for a while. But if management stays committed and explains how much business was being lost by all of the bank tellers going out at the same lunch time the change will eventually take hold and things will get better than they were before.

And yes... amazingly enough bank tellers want to take lunch when everyone else takes lunch.. And they want to go out together... and that's the busiest time of a bank branch's day... And I've actually watched 6 experienced tellers sitting in the cafeteria while the lobby fills to overflowing with lunch time customers with only one part time swing shift teller desperately trying to service more customers than the other six did all morning... And believe me it was no easy trick for a manager to stagger the lunches so customer service wouldn't stop when customers actually had time to do their banking. People and rats will resist change, even when it is for the better. So yes, it will be a little harder to improve things now than it would have been when you got your rats. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try or that it won't work.

My rats have somehow learned that when I'm typing on the keyboard that I'm busy and they leave me alone, that's the norm here. They will wait until I leave my office to approach me... I never intended to teach them they are unwelcome in my office when I'm working, in fact I might sometimes appreciate a little distraction... but that's what they believe and that's what they do... There's a rat under my desk right now that won't come to me because I'm typing this post. When I stop, she'll come and visit me... I could change this behavior by trying to bring my rats in and focusing on them more instead of finishing this message. But rather, I stopped typing, she came and said Hi and she roamed off and I'm typing again and all is good with the world... I suppose it's a "norm" we can all live with. 

If you want to change your "normal", first accept that it is possible, then start with one challenge at a time, expect some resistance but try and sell your changes with lots of love and treats. Do longer sessions and don't get easily discouraged. It took one bank branch manager, I knew, a very long time to successfully stagger the teller's lunch hours, she wound up hiring every new teller with an offset lunch hour right from the start and then the remaining old tellers fell in line too. Eventually, lunch time customers were greeted with a smile rather than a row of signs that said "Next Window Please =>" and customers got back to their own jobs on time again. As long as branch managers believed they couldn't change the way tellers worked, nothing changed, once managers embraced change, and stayed focused on it, the staff followed suit.

Immersion theory doesn't end in the immersion session, it only starts there, same principles, same tactics, loftier goals when you move on to training.

Best luck.


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## SGxyz

Wow, thank you so much for your detailed reply! I will definitely bear that in mind.

Actually since I made this post I've been thinking, and now I've had a chance to spend some time with my girls this evening I'm starting to think Soju is actually deaf. Not only does she ignore my voice, she also appears to ignore the clapping and whistling noises i made that frightened the life out of Kimchi! So I will have to think of some alternative ways to get her socialised and trained!

Really, thank you so much for your response.


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## anniedog

I want to start immersion with my new rats, but they are terrified of being picked up. Every time after I have had to handle them they get scared, and I feel like they don't trust me much. I have been able to coax them out of the cage into a cardboard enclosure type thing I made for playtime, but the entire time they just try to escape. One of them was brave enough to climb on me, but only so she could try to jump out of the enclosure. (I can't let them free range completely because my parents won't allow it at this point, and also because they would run and hide.)Any tips on overcoming this so I can begin immersion?


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## Rat Daddy

Find yourself a smallish room like a bathroom get yourself a pillow to sit on and settle in with your new rats there. They will have a little room to run away from you and you will still be able to reach and engage them. Bring some treats and settle in and start making friends with them. Pet them, pick them up a little, chase them around a little and let them climb on you and take treats. Try to show them you are friendly and want to get to know them... 

It will take a little while, sometimes a few hours, but they will start getting over their fear and get interested in you. Be patient and most of all have some fun with your new rats. Engage them, let them reply to you and respond to them, it's all about building a relationship with your rats. They will want to be your best furry friends, they just don't know you yet.


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## ratmode

I just came here to testify to Rat Daddy's training methods. I brought home two young (<3 months) rats around the first week of May and had never heard of any specific rat training methods before then. But I chose rats over any other small pet because rats are smart and can learn - I knew that I would be able to bond with them in a significant way.

Well, after about two days of having the rats home, I stumbled on Rat Daddy's thread. The rats were still terrified of me at this point, wouldn't eat from my hand, wouldn't come up to me in the cage, wouldn't do anything but run away from me and try to dig under the bedding. So when I read Rat Daddy's thread I immediately decided to have an immersion session. This only lasted for about five minutes before one of the rats found an opening into a small pipe access space and got stuck there for a day or two! But after I got him out, I found a way to rat-proof the area, and started doing immersion sessions again.

Now, just like a rat, I'm easily distracted. Each of the early immersion sessions was 1-2 hours in length, and like Rat Daddy said, this makes it harder. Fortunately my guys are very easy-going and after about a week of daily "short" (two hours or less) sessions, they started to trust me. Before the end of May, they would come up to the cage door to greet me at playtime, they would willingly run out the cage up my arm and sit on my shoulders and groom my face. Best of all, they listened to me and accepted me as their authority figure, provider, and protector!

Now the thing that helped me most was learning about how rats communicate with each other, and communicating with the rats in ways that they would understand. For example: when my rats do something dangerous, my first instinct as a brutal hairless primate is to flip them over and yell at them. But rats don't behave like this in ratland - if a rat is on his back, it's because he's trying to protect his neck or his rump from a rival. Lying on the back is a defensive strategy for a rat, when it is communicating with another rat. I observed that my rats would play by grooming furiously on the back of the neck, so when I wanted to play with the rats, I did this.

The first time I did this to my more curious boy (Trey), he was confused. Up until that point, he'd been terrified of me - a big predator with hands twice the size of his body and a loud scary voice! But when I set him down on the floor, chased him around, and scritched the back of his neck, he stopped, turned around, and looked at me. I could see the little gears turning in his head. He turned and ran away from me again, but this time would stop periodically to see where I was, instead of running blindly. I scritched his neck again and continued doing this until one time, he just turned around and started licking me! After that, Trey and I were officially bonded, and it was time to start working on his brother (Page).

I worked with Trey for a day or two until I got him to trust me - eating out of my hand, grooming me, even starting to wrestle with me a little bit. Then I decided that to get Page (the timid one) to be my friend, I would have to meet him where he lived - literally. I waited at night until the boys were grooming each other inside their nest box, and I stuck my hand inside and started petting Trey. Page ran to the opposite side at first, but when he saw Trey grooming my hand, he came over and gave me a couple of tentative nips. (Page is still learning that nipping and licking are not the same thing for a human.) I squeaked when he nipped me, and he became cautious (NOT the same as fearful), licking my fingers gently instead. It was still another day or two before I got him to realize that the face with the big voice was the same as the hand that would cuddle him at night, but eventually it took.

Now I've noticed their personality differences: during free-range time, Trey will periodically come back to check in with me, but is very adventurous. Page is much more timid - if I want him to leave the portable nest basket that I made for them, I usually have to pick him up and put him on the floor. He will roam around, but doesn't go far from me unless Trey's marked the area first (he sniffs for Trey's pee when he runs along the floor, and doesn't stray outside the boundaries that Trey has already set). But while he's roaming, he makes no effort to check in with me - though when I make two quick "here kitty" kissy sounds in succession, he looks at me and runs over to me if my hands are down.

I mostly communicate with the rats nonverbally - they seem to like this better. They do know their names, but I rarely use them - I've found that I can call them just by gesturing or clicking in their direction. I make a high-pitched squeaky "kissy" noise if they need to stop doing something - it sounds like the scream that Page makes whenever I try to give him a bath (rat in distress sound) - this is a sound that they recognize as meaning "danger ahead". I also make a quick version of the same noise if they nip me too hard, they recognize this sound as meaning "stop that, it hurts".

All of these behaviors that I use to communicate with my rats are my best efforts at replicating behaviors that I see the rats use with each other. Think back to the first time you tried to speak another language with a native speaker - it wasn't perfect, but the other person recognized that you were trying, and probably understood what you were trying to say. I am learning to speak rat by immersion, and my rats are learning to speak human by immersion too (they know that when my alarm goes off in the morning, they get food - for example). I am a science student so I'm accustomed to systematic observation, and a computer nerd by trade so I'm accustomed to reverse-engineering complex systems to learn the basic inputs that make them work. But anyone can do it - all you have to do is watch your rats to see how they communicate, then try to speak their language.

So, immersion training really works, and for me the most important thing was getting into the "rat" mindset. Now that I know what it's like inside the rats' heads, I can communicate with them effectively, and understand what they are trying to say to me. (Most of what they say to me is "I want treats" and "I want to play")

Thanks Rat Daddy!

EDIT: one more thing, a fringe benefit of having rats is that learning their language has helped me to communicate with my girlfriend's guinea pigs better. The piggies are mostly afraid of me, but learning the observe-engage-repeat cycle of rodent communication has helped me to learn their language. They are still very timid but now I think she gets a little jealous because they purr for me when I pet them (they never do this for anyone else). The reason this works is because I have observed the guinea pigs' behavior and learned how they talk to each other. One of her pigs is a social deviant and tries to kill any other pig in her path (literally), but I've at least learned how to get her to shut up and cuddle. Fascinating to me to see that social disorders can develop in animals as well as in humans. That pig is a psycho.


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## Rat Daddy

Thank you Ratmode for sharing your experience. Last 4th of July was Fuzzy Rat's last public appearance, and she was on my mind as I brought two rats to the town fireworks show the other day, neither were nearly as enamored with the fireworks as Fuzzy Rat was, but despite the inclement weather we did a little meet and greet with some kids afterwards.

When Fuzzy Rat first tried to reach out and communicate with me, I was first confused and then borderline shocked. I did several reality checks and tests to see if just maybe I was losing my mind. But no, there was a little one pound animal actually trying to get into my mind space and find some way to make it's wants and thoughts understandable to me. I was a psychology major when rat running was at the core of operand conditioning and behavior modification, and I've read more rat studies than I'd care to recall. And honestly nothing prepared me for a rat trying to communicate with me or seeing me as a friend or a being capable of communicating with. 

There's no way to describe what made Fuzzy Rat so unique, she had an ability to handle stressful situations with calm and composure, she was always thinking and adapting her behavior, she was raised as an only rat in a human household and she traveled with us so she saw us in many different situations and had a vastly broader experience set than most rats have, or maybe there was just something different in how her brain was wired. But she clearly didn't ever distinguish between human and rat friends. If she had something to say, she found a way to get you to understand her. And when I did something she liked and I understood her, she would always give me a rat kiss or lick me to tell me I got it right... Imagine the rat rewarding the human for performing the correct behavior.

Obviously, I had to re-think everything I 'knew' about rats. Socialization, bonding, training, social structure, it was all based on communication, and bi-directional communication was possible between our two species. What was strangest about it was that a rat would want to communicate with it's human as much as we would want to communicate with it. We just have to reach out to our rats and let them know we are listening and talking to them... like Fuzzy Rat reached out to us. Once both humans and rats get it, the entire relationship changes. It's not simply a matter of 'trust training' where a rat just stops being afraid of a human, it's actually a social dynamic that evolves. And with a new paradigm based on communication, so much more is possible, there are very few limits to what you can teach the right rat or any rat and there are very few problems you can't fix if you can figure out a way to get your rat to understand you. Or present your case in a way your rat can understand it. And once you start 'listening' to your rats you can accommodate their needs, give them a sense of family and make them happier too.

The hardest problem Fuzzy Rat had to overcome was my disbelief that she was actually reaching out to me. But by the time she became completely disabled, she had a large vocabulary that included, pick me up, put me down, lift me for food, lift me for water, take me to cage, take me to my secret nest, I want to snuggle, I need to potty, I want to go outside or downstairs even introduce me to someone. She was 21 oz of tumor and only 6 oz of rat and could barely move her head and tap her fore paws. Amelia her roommate kept her groomed and we did the rest and her ability to be understood extended her life at least a few months. We took her outside so she could lay in the clovers and meet new people and see old friends and she remained active and engaged despite her disability until she died.

Maybe not surprisingly, the hardest thing I've had to do is to get other humans to change their mindset too. Most humans see a little furry rat and think 'unintelligent pocket pet' rather than complex metacognative mind in a small package. Size seems to go against rats in our minds, but my daughter's I-pad has hundreds of times the processing power than the IBM AT in my attic and can do things the mainframes couldn't when I was in college. Millions of years of rodent evolution has constructed a rather remarkable compact brain design that can be tapped into. It's more similar to ours than it's different. We are both social creatures, that process our environment in a similar way, we experience similar emotions and have similar needs and we are interactive. 

What's great about your post is how you describe your efforts to reach out to your rats and get them to understand you by trying to present yourself in a way they could understand and how you adapted your understanding of them and communications to them by observing they way they communicated with each other. I think some people are going to understand your post better than my explanations. I really like the way you put it... "getting into the rat mindset". And I like the way you described how you have become a part of their lives as their authority figure, provider and protector... you may have left out friend, and I may have added parent, but you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Some folks read immersion as some form of trust training, some focus on the extreme variant and liken it to forced socialization, some folks get stuck on the techniques and see elements of operand conditioning, but that's not what it's all about at all. It's all about establishing communication and building a relationship, then building on that relationship to make your rats more competent to live in your human household as part of your family. You used slightly different techniques and you customized them to your personality and to your rats, but they worked just as well because you followed the right fundamental paradigm of immersion theory. It's all about communication.

On a personal note, we were incredibly privileged to have lived with and known the real Fuzzy Rat. She climbed trees, and swam in lakes, and entertained handicapped children. She liked fireworks. She liked to run away outdoors, but she always came back. She could find her way back to the car or the house from great distances. She was a lush with a fetish for hard liquor and junk food. Sometimes she was stubborn and a real primadonna. She made hundreds of friends from all walks of life. She chose her own rat friend and thereby saved her from a neglectful home. She changed hearts and minds where ever she went. She was a genuine member of our family and she loved us and we loved her. And her determination to be understood and to get through to us formed the foundation of immersion theory. How could I NOT share what she taught me with other rat owners? 

I recall the moment when I first realized my rat was trying to communicate with me. I recall re-configuring my paradigm of rat psychology and how everything just fell into place for me. I remember the first time I shared my "new" understanding and we fixed the first aggressive biting rat overnight. It was a real thrill. And now nearly 33,000 reads later, it's still incredibly gratifying to experience the amazing bonds people are building with their own rats, like the ones we have with our current rats and see how much joy the experience brings them. There are more true shoulder rats than ever before and lots of well behaved rats are living free range in their homes like ours do. And people are treating their rats better and giving them more opportunities to be much more than pocket pets. 

My wife told me to go out and find a pet for my daughter to love, something furry, she actually said "Don't bring home a rat." But my daughter was only 5 years old and I honestly had no hope that any pet would do well in our home. I felt sorry for all of the animals in the pet shop and finally wound up in front of the snake food bin. My daughter instantly fell in love with a little rat pup. I didn't give it a week... But then there was Fuzzy Rat chasing my daughter around the playground a few weeks later with the other kids just like a puppy... She not only survived, but thrived on a lifestyle that would have been hard on a dog much less a rat.... and now a year after she's gone, I still get to share the legacy of her life with other people and improve the lives of so many mixed rat and human families... so you are most welcome, I'm very happy I could help you to get to know your best furry friends better, but keep in mind, we were amazingly lucky to find a truly special animal in a snake food bin, we were proud of her every day of her life and we are doubly blessed that she left us a legacy to share that still helps other people and rats... It really has been a strange trip, but getting to share in the bonds of love and understanding forged out of immersion, based on the life of our best furry friend is more rewarding than you might imagine. 

Remember, your rats' lives are short, make the best out of every day with them and you will have a great legacy of your own to recall for the rest of your life too.

Again thank you for sharing your experience, I'm sure it will be helpful to others and that's what it's all about. Immersion is all about communicating and sharing. Once you do it, you want everybody else to have the same wonderful rat experience. 

(And BTW, I'm pleased, but not surprised, immersion theory works on guinea pigs too. I'm sure you can help guinea pig owners with their pets too. I've never had one, so I can't help anyone with them from personal experience.)


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## ratmode

I like the way you describe bi-directional communication between rats and humans. My rats definitely reached out to me once they realized that I was smart like them, and not just a big dumb piece of furniture! Now they reach out to me all the time and tell me stuff every day.


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## Rat Daddy

It's sort of funny, I've noticed that when my rats show up, I usually say "Hi" first, and then ask them what they want. It's a reflex. From the moment they come to me I automatically assume they have something to say. Max is funny in that sometimes she just wants to say hello and does an "inspection" of me and doesn't want anything other than to make sure all of my parts and smells are in the right places and then she weebles off to finish her daily patrol. But generally, when my rats show up, they have something important to ask or tell me.


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## ratmode

Just an update to this thread, I taught the basics of rat immersion (my understanding of it) to my girlfriend and the rats are like family with her now, too! My theory is that since they've already been immersed once, they recognized her as a human attempting to communicate with them much more quickly than they did with me. Have you experienced this Rat Daddy?


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## Rat Daddy

Absolutely. Rats don't natively recognize each other as friends, much less humans, but once they get that humans are friends, with the exception of wild rats, they tend to actually generalize with humans more than other rats.... One human is nice and communicates so they all do. 

This tendency to generalize with humans can also work against you... one human was cruel and mean and you are going to have your work cut out for you in immersion.

Wild rats and part wild rats are likely to be more distrustful of humans in general and make exceptions for a few they know and trust.

But overall immersed rats tend to make friends pretty easily. Good observation.


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## Erik Ezrin

You must have said it somewhere, but the thread is so long, with so much info, so I will ask it anyway... 
My black hooded rat Snoopy is the most fearful of my two rats, and she also poses quite a biting problem. Most of the times when I just offer her my fingers (without a treat) she will try to bite me in a non-friendly way. She appears curious of me as long as I'm outside the cage, don't try to touch or grab her, or if I have a treat. When I reach into the cage without a treat, she will try to bite, and if I try to pick her up or even just stroke her, she will completely freak out in fear (I tried to grab her today, as I wanted to do immersion with her, but she wouldn't come out of the cage. So no succes :/ I think I made her even more scared of me, and I feel a bit guilty now for scaring her like that) Also are the doors of my cage rather tiny (worst thing of my cage. But I got it secondhand for a discount, so I didn't complain) which makes it hard to reach for her.

Should I try to force her into the transport box regardless of her fear (I am afraid that will only make her problems worse), or should I wait till she comes out by herself (and I am afraid that might take quite a long time)
How 'forceful' should I be with a skittish rat like Snoopy? If I did what she wanted, then I can give her to someone else already, cause there won't be any interacting or bonding, but she is definitely scared of me, and I am afraid that if I force myself onto her she will get even MORE scared.
How can I bond with a rat that doesn't want to bond? How can I gain her trust if all I do (giving treats excluded) will make her distrust me?


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## Rat Daddy

First we have to get over biting before bonding... Fearful biting is one of the hardest issues to deal with. This means that someone has really hurt her before you got her and she has a reason to be defending herself.

Yes you have to get her out of the cage, don't worry about more fearful... she's already fearful.. so more or less isn't the issue yet. Once you get her to the immersion area, if she is truly fearful, she will run from you and find a corner to hide in and only defend her position when backed up to the wall... IF she attacks you, this isn't fear, it's aggression.

But once you have her backed to the wall, try to coax her out, offer treats and be very friendly. Speak softly and try to show her you won't hurt her... Depending on how badly someone has hurt her this can take a very long time... To be honest, aggressive rats take less time to fix than fearful ones. Keep engaging her, give her a little time to relax between engagements, but stay with her... show her you are the nice human... Still if she attacks or tries to bite you respond forcefully. It's OK for her to be afraid but not OK to bite you at first, then you work to overcome the fear...

Biting is always priority one, then you fix every other problem next. There is nothing you can do with a rat that bites... once you aren't getting bitten you can fix just about every other problem with time and effort.


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## Pandorascaisse

So, basically when I started out with Dovian - my new rat - I couldn't even get him to take treats from my hand. I was stupid and let him "settle in" for a day first. I tried puffed rice, pretzels, cheeze-its, tiny little crouton things, and even Ritz crackers. He wanted nothing to do with me, in fact, he ran and hid and I spent a good hour just trying to get him again. So, after that, we moved to a new room, a smaller room.

I sat with my legs in a V, and every time he would touch my knee I would lift my knee so he could pass under it. When he looked at the tub, I picked him up and put him on the edge, and when he looked into the tub, I would put him in there. We eventually started playing a game where I had a shampoo bottle and if he tapped it I would put it on its side, and if he tapped it again I would pick it up. He was just running around for awhile, but then he suddenly sat and had a really long grooming session. Then, suddenly, he bruxed a bit. I was surprised - it came out of nowhere, but I kept up the "game" with him. Eventually he started bruxing and wouldn't stop, so I reached down to pet him. 

He flopped onto his side and let me pet his belly. He almost fell asleep, but stupid me shifted my leg that was falling asleep. 

Long story short, the thing that ended the session for me was that I leaned down and kissed his back, and he rolled over and let me kiss his side. Then he got up and licked my nose and played with my hair. I stood up, and he trotted with me over to the door and hopped into my hand so I could take him with me.


I'd like to say thank you, Rat Daddy. Immersion is something I didn't try with my other two, but maybe its not too late? Is this what I was looking for, do you think he's immersed? I went back into the cage after and he came over to me and to me and took a ritz - what do you think?


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## Rat Daddy

That's exactly how it should go. You established communication. Dovian now knows he can communicate with you and he will be trying to understand you too. He was bruxing because he was just as happy as you to have made a gigantic new friend. You started out as a potential predator and became his new best human buddy... Of course you should follow up your immersion session with lots and lots of play and name training and communication... The immersion session is how you connect, then you build on that every day in your play and training sessions until he literally becomes part of your family... 

As to your other rats, I don't really know what your relationship is right now, but we have yet to find a situation where immersion has done any harm, keep in mind they are already used to things in your home the way they have been, so it might take a little bit longer to change the relationship that is to what you want it to be. In any event it should still be a fun play session which will improve your bond.

Immersion works most quickly when a new rat is in a new place and frightened, he wants to make a new friend very badly, he's alone and afraid and really needs you to be there for him. Perhaps it's a human kindness or perhaps it's taking advantage of a situation or it might be a little bit of both but being there when your rat most needs a friend kicks the bonding process into high gear. But we've fixed some really screwed up rats that have been in the same home for quite a while... So it really becomes a judgment call with rats you have already established a relationship whether to do a full immersion or just concentrate on building what you have during your regular play sessions.

And of course you are most welcome, I enjoy reading stories like yours. I knew the real live Fuzzy Rat, and I know how hard she struggled to get through to us and establish communication with her human family... I love to see that same bond rekindled in other homes with other rats and humans. It's actually very rewarding to see our little furry friends legacy change and improves the lives of other people and rats.


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## Little Bit

I'm struggling to immerse one of my new rats. Gadget, while he no longer thinks I'm evil, does not seem to want to even try communicating. He has no use for me other than a jungle gym. He likes to use my shoulder and head as vantage points over the bathroom and that's about it. He doesn't like me to pet him or take him out. His brother however actually likes me and likes cuddles, won't stray too far from me, and even lets me flip him over for a skritch. How can I show Gadget that I'm trying to communicate when he won't try? Like just now, he wanted up to get a yogi so I raised him up and gave him part. The next time he wanted one he ignored me and jumped for them instead without asking for my help. Once he knows he can do something without me, he ignores me, or he never asks in the first place. It's kinda like he thinks I'm incapable of communicating period and when I do answer him its by accident.


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## Rat Daddy

Rats start learning from the moment they are born, and somewhere along the way Gadget may have learned humans can't or don't interact with him... At the place where he was born or at the pet shop or with a former owner, he was most likely not handled and he learned that humans don't respond. Most likely when you do do what he expects, he's thinking of it as coincidence too... He may also be one of those rats with a very independent personality. One of our girls likes her skritches, but prefers to be standing on her own feet when she's skritched rather than held... Outdoors she prefers to be held rather than set on the ground and she commonly asks to be lifted to get to places she can't reach. So she has no problems with being lifted, held or carried but prefers to be skritched on more equal footing. She is a very independent rat, it's part of her personality. 

Immersion won't change Gadget's personality, and you will find that different rats will have different final outcomes. There's no brainwashing involved and your rat came to you with whatever luggage he acquired before you met him. But all rats will learn that you can communicate with them and they with you. So I don't think you are there yet. 

I don't know how long you have been at it, but I would keep going, try bringing in some toys as well as treats, keep talking to Gadget, keep using his name and see if he responds to it, keep engaging him. If he has to unlearn what he knows about humans this process will take longer...

So how do you know when you have hit the wall? Basically when he responds to you. It may not be the response you prefer, but it will be a response never the less. 

For example... When I get out of the car, I like the rats to come to me so we can go somewhere or back into the house... Usually they do it, but sometimes Max prefers to stay under the dash board. Call as I may she won't come out... Now you might think she doesn't understand her come command but one night I was going to bed and I wasn't going to wait any longer and I got upset, so I shouted at her, really I was getting pretty angry. A few seconds later she slunk out from inside the dash board and came to me. It wasn't that she didn't understand me, she clearly did... It was a matter of I was asking her to do something she didn't want to do. I engaged her by calling her and she replied with a surly "get lost". I engaged her again, this time with anger in my voice and she replied "well if your that insistent, I might as well come out." So with Max, it's not only the command, but my tone of voice that she responds to. Outdoors Fuzzy Rat was very responsive to commands, that is when she wasn't off on one of her solo adventures, but indoors if my come command wasn't accompanied with the crunching of a candy or cookie wrapper or the smell of something yummy she didn't take me very seriously. It's actually remarkable how much human language a rat can learn... One day my daughter and I were sharing a few cookies, Fuzzy Rat smelled them and came to me for a treat. I looked at her and said "Emily has the cookies". And Fuzzy Rat turned around on the spot and ran to the other room looking for my daughter and the cookies. There's no doubt in my mind she understood exactly what I said. She understood Emily and she understood cookies and the response was completely appropriate... mug kid for cookies.

Rats also understand pointing and follow the hand, try pointing to a treat or leading Gadget to a treat with your hand or tapping by the treat to get his attention and see if he responds to your hand gestures... Hopefully he will get that you are communicating with him. Use his name and see how it affects his behavior and rinse and repeat until he realizes you aren't furniture.... It's good he isn't afraid of you, but you should get more out of him if you continue to work with him... When I pick Max up and try to skritch her, she struggles to get down, but then she will stand there and expect to be skritched on her own terms. She clearly understand what I want, and she likes it too, and she responds consistently, but her behavior isn't exactly what I want... still there is bidirectional communication going on. She's immersed, but not obedient. It's just her nature to be independent and to want things done her way.

Hope that helps.


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## Little Bit

Thanks Rat Daddy, I'll give it a shot. Independence is completely fine with me, however I'd like to be promoted to something other than an awesome piece of furniture lol. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Capistrono

Just wanted to add my comments to the disscusion...I've always considered myself a good rat owner. Our rats have always been very bonded with us. They used to be on my shoulder or in my hoodie hood when I was house cleaning or cooking, if you put them on my mom's shoulder they would try very hard to get back to me. We have always recieved kisses from them, they each had their own special way they liked to be scratched, one of ours was crazy about tummy tickles, they stay near us, and have had a few nap on us as well. The only problem rat we've ever had is Brown Jenkin, we got him from someone on craigslist. I know he was a single rat and suspect he was in a too small cage and not very socialized as well. He gets along pretty okay with people, but if startled or bothered too much he will bite. He was with our other rats for a bit but when we began giving our PEW some nasty looking wounds we seperated them. We tried to reintroduce them with little success. I just wanted to say that reading the success stories here has given me some new hope, I'm going to try your methods and hope that he will calm down again and can be part of a mischeif once more. Thanks to everyone in this thread for giving advice and hope to problem rats!


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## Rat Daddy

Rats that have survived abusive or neglectful homes or long term pet shop stays present a terrible conundrum. While the correct ethical and moral thing to do is to give them a good forever home, they can be the most difficult rats to work with. I can't think of a worse place to start out than with a rat that already hates me because I look and smell a whole lot like his previous owner or someone that hurt or neglected him and perhaps put him with my other rats when he has no social experience with other rats.

Rats are intelligent learning animals, I've worked with a neglected rat... It was the only rat Fuzzy Rat wanted as a roommate. And it sat on my desk like a flower pot for three weeks, terrified to move from the spot I put it. Fuzzy Rat was actually very correct in her assessment of Amelia, her hand picked pet rat... Amelia took excellent care of Fuzzy Rat when she got sick and cuddled with her and preened her and cleaned her where and when she could not. Amelia was always somewhat unsure around humans and never really developed an outgoing personality or became very affectionate until her very last days, she pretty much kept to herself and visited me every day for a few skritches and to say Hi. She never really got over the neglect and always assumed that her humans didn't want to spend any time with her, so she kept her contacts sweet and brief. She also never developed the self confidence to be a shoulder rat. It was the luggage she carried all of her life. It in fact became her personality.

But after Fuzzy Rat passed away, she did almost no damage free range living in the house and became that odd uncle that lives in the basement (in her case storage closet) that comes out every day to say Hi sits in on occasional meals and then keeps to himself. While never being entirely right in the head, she was also never too far off and came when called, never bit and took good care of out old sick best friend like no human could do. She was a very good girl and oddly we miss her since she has passed on too. 

While a screwed up rat may bring luggage into your house and a bent tree may never grow straight again, trees grow towards the sunlight and rats respond to love, affection and patient handling... 

For the most part with enough effort things can be improved. It's several times the work than starting with an emotionally healthy pup. You never get all of the kinks completely out of their personality, but many screwed up rats have been fixed to the point of leading normal healthy lives with a mixed family of humans and other rats... Amelia took great care of Fuzzy Rat, and when she went into heart failure spent the last six days of her life needing to be held by us and clinging on to us and her heart gave out as she climbed on to my shoulder one last time... It turned out that despite always keeping her distance she loved us and trusted us very much... Fuzzy Rat was right, she was a fine rat after all and incredibly low maintenance, not that that was what we wanted. So screwed up rats can be fixed to the greater degree, but it's not easy and it takes more understanding. Damaged rats are not for everyone, but there are rewards to compensate for the extra effort they require. 

I personally wouldn't have adopted a 7 month old neglected and emotionally damaged rat, but it's who Fuzzy Rat wanted, so I went along with it, I put in more work than I normally do, but I couldn't have hand picked a better friend for our old and sick best friend, and she eventually found her place in our family. So, I suppose I grudgingly have to admit she was well worth the extra work and effort. And while I'd never recommend a screwed up rat to a new rat owner, if you have the patience and are willing to put in the work, and understand that there are certain risks I do believe it's a good deed that can be very rewarding.

Best luck with Brown Jenkin... if you expect this to be really difficult you will find it most likely won't be half as bad as you expect. If you expect fixing a rat that someone has really screwed up will be easy, you will be disappointed and might be more prone to give up. Much of working with a screwed up rat is managing your expectations as much as fixing the rat. I was disappointed that Amelia never became a true shoulder rat, but when I think how far she came, from where she was emotionally when we got her, her live with us was an impressive achievement in rehabilitation. Glass half empty or half full... it's all how you measure your progress.


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## Capistrono

Yesterday I set up the play pen and climbed in with Brown Jenkin. I picked him up and talked to him and he sat on my lap and bruxed and groomed me for a good 5 minutes. Problem rat or not, it's moments like that that make all the trouble and fear about him worth it. I just wish he would allow himself to have some rat friends as well.

It sounds like Amelia made wonderful progress with you, despite never becoming as bonded as Fuzzy Rat. I enjoy reading all your stories, Rat Daddy, you've done some amazing things. Thanks again for the fantastic advice and for the hope for these abandoned ratties.


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## Rat Daddy

Capistrono,

As you seem to have a pretty good bond with Brown Jenkin start to include your other rats in your play session with him... Take the role of any good alpha and try to bring your pack together around you for play and fun.... If Brown Jenkin gets out of line address his aggression with a stern voice and if need be sufficient physical dissuasion to bring your point home that you won't put up with his aggressive attitude. But again not to hurt him or punish him, just to communicate that everyone is part of your pack.... Pretty much blend immersion with introductions. Depending on how aggressive he is you may want to have thick gloves or oven mitts handy. I've had good success with this method and I've also gotten nipped with a different pair of rats, oddly by the new rat I was introducing.... I'm blocking a big rat that's being aggressive with the back of my hand during intros and the new little one I was protecting bit me in the palm... If all of the rats in the pen with you are well bonded to you you should be pretty safe, but when rats really get worked up they make mistakes. So be careful. Once you have everyone playing nicely around you, then you can work on getting everyone into a better living arrangement. Basically your goal is to build a natural rat social structure around yourself.

Best luck.


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## Pandorascaisse

Rat Daddy - I would like to ask you a question concerning my rat, Tarot. I decided that, since he's been being aggressive towards other rats lately (and nipped myself and supposedly bit my father) I would try immersing him again and see what would happen. I considered that maybe he's older now and with the hormones changing and whatnot maybe he just needed a recap.

To my somewhat joy and somewhat dismay, once he was done wandering around, he let me cuddle him and pet him. He was bruxing and boggling all over the place. I decided to test something and (we were doing immersion in a tub, because it was the smallest space I could find and I was kind of worrying for him) I laid down on my side. He hopped onto the little inlet my tub has (which was face level with me) and I pet him behind the ears and he kind of flattened out and almost went to sleep, bruxing like a maniac. Then my entire family decided to make noises at once, and he moved to the crook of my neck. Then, because I was moving my shoulder a lot petting him, he moved to the top of my head (laying against the back of the tub, and against my head), and fell asleep. 

I. Am happy that he's like this, but? As soon as I put him back in his room he couldn't wait to get away from me and he ran off to hide as soon as he got into his cage. I don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, I hardly recognized the Tarot I saw when I was "immersing" him. The normal Tarot I see is neurotic and skittish and hates being picked up... but he was so relaxed and happy. The vet today cleared him of anything medical... but said perhaps he would be better off living on his own. Perhaps he needs to be away from rats and have a human companion instead.

I kind of agree with her after what I saw tonight. What do you think? I would really appreciate your opinion - I know it's only like 40% to do with immersion, but. I still felt it could reasonably go here.


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## Rat Daddy

Your situation occurs because there are two sets of rules in your house... One set in the immersion area where he's getting your full attention and being treated with lots of affection and he's happy. Then there's the real world where he has to fight to maintain dominance and status... It's a situation that created itself, mostly when you weren't with him and he was fending for himself.

So now you change the rules for the cage and play area too, bring all your rats out for supervised play time and manage it hands on, be the alpha in the play area and set the rules there too. I realize you can't fit into your rat's cage. But if you keep the doors open you can make the cage less of a different space from the play area... and you can reach in and use voice commands. My rats free range the house, when I hear them fighting I just shout "Stop fighting" and they do. They know the rules...

Now I won't pretend that my rats always follow the rules 100% but for the most part my control extends to anywhere they can hear me. And they know I don't shout at them often so If I'm shouting they pay attention.

I think you made a very good start back in immersion, now bring it forward into the real world and build on it. Some folks tend to think immersion is the end of immersion theory, but it's only the beginning, step two is to manage your pack hands on and to be the alpha, and alpha usually means being the parent, but sometimes it means being sheriff too. Remember you never punish your rats, but you can shout or bop (with love in your heart) to communicate what you want or need your rats to do or not do.

As there is already a social dynamic in place, it will be a little harder to change the rules than if you were working with brand new rats, but rats can learn that now things are different. So again try to bring everyone together around you for supervised play and build on it from there.

Best luck.


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## ratlovergirl

Rat Daddy said:


> This is a very fine question and it depends on the severity of the condition you find your new rats in and your experience level. With normal, friendly non-aggressive rats, immersion can be done as a group romp with lots of one on one time with each and time with both as the format allows, but you should be prepared for it to take longer, think ultra-marathon. However if one of your new rats is aggressive and/or bites, you take him or her on first. Then once you have immersed him bring in the second less or non-aggressive rat and take him through the process next, the first immersed rat can participate after you get the immersion done with the second. This immersion and introduction process can be done in one extended marathon and it ends with everybody playing nicely together as long as you can maintain control of the action.
> 
> This isn't a matter of better science or theory, its simply a matter of personal safety. Rats can be fast and agile and can maneuver around you and take a nasty bite out of something important to your physical well being. So you want to challenge the nastiest most aggressive one first while you are at your sharpest and fastest and you don't want to get distracted by a second anything in the room with you. Towels, gloves and thick clothes and boots help, but quick reflexes, focused concentration and nerves of steel are going to make much quicker work of immersing a vicious rat.
> 
> I've owned a part-wild rat and her normal pack order play fighting consisted of her lunging at my face from four feet away. Gladly the first time it happened and I missed the catch I discovered that the 10 or so bites she took out of my face didn't actually draw any blood and she was only pretending to tear me to pieces. She was barely 6 weeks old. Several months later I blocked her from killing a small animal I was holding in my hand, her strike missed that animal and I found out just what a real rat bite feels an looks like. It's something you seriously should try to avoid! If you are working with a dangerous rat, it's one on one and you stay on the attack and I mean attack until it backs down and acknowledges your authority, one second of distraction can take you to the hospital with an unfortunate piercing. If you somehow find yourself starting out with multiple vicious rats at once you do one at a time keeping the immersed rats isolated until everybody respects your authority and then you do the immersion rat introductions bringing one rat in after another until everyone plays as a group.
> 
> So while theoretically you should be able to lock yourself into a room with a pack of wild rats and assert your alpha status and do a single immersion/introduction ultra-marathon session... theory must give way to safety or you will be spending quality time explaining immersion on your insurance claim forms.
> 
> You form your plan of attack based on the rats and your confidence and experience level. Group, or one on one and then group both will work well and quickly... but one on one and then group is always safer and easier. It may not be the way I might go personally, but it's the way I would recommend it to anyone less experienced than myself.


What do you suggest with a rat who is very loveable and sociable outside of his cage but territorial and aggressive inside of the cage


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## Rat Daddy

There's really nothing magical about a cage. Especially if the door is kept open and the rats can come and go as they please and the cage is large enough. 

Rats pretty much only defend "territory" against "invaders" which would be humans or other rats they are not bonded with. Once rats bond with other rats or humans they pretty much don't defend much personal space and often prefer company or to snuggle with friends. I've had rats try to pull me into the cage rather than try and keep me out. You pretty much see rats defending their territory during free range introductions. It's a horrible way to introduce rats, but sometimes necessary if the rats are badly mismatched. First the pre-existing rat will defend the whole house trying to drive the invader out, and then slowly concede territory until the new rat gets to the original rat's private nest and make a last stand there. After the final conflict is over both rats will usually wind up sharing the cage or nest as family.

Territorial aggression isn't cage related in my home where my rats defend the metal cabinet in my office where they prefer to sleep rather than the cage which is only where they eat. And it's actually less of a form of aggression than assertive defense against invaders.

Aggression in rats is generally status related. It's based on a conflict over who is the boss or who is the alpha. Again it's not limited to the cage, but it can be concentrated there as either the human or fellow rat has less room to escape or back down and run away. It's less severe when rats and humans have lots of room to maneuver and avoid or minimize conflict.

I realize that's a pretty generic answer, but it was a pretty generic question.

If the problem is between you and your rat, you really have to work with him or her outside the cage as much as possible, simply because you can't fit into most rat cages. Once you have established a solid and affectionate bond try to include the cage into your play, going out and in together as much as possible.... If necessary take the top off off the cage or keep the doors open to make it less "private". The idea here is to diagnose the problem. Are you dealing with a actual territorial issue, where your rat sees you, or other rats as invaders or outsiders, which would be fixed by better bonding and stretching your play area into the cage or is it aggression which needs to be addressed by adjusting his or her concept of his or her social status.

Sometimes problems are not obvious at first. In the case of a flat tire, no matter where the air is leaking out, the tire always looks flat on the bottom. If my pretty generic answer doesn't help, give you an action plan, please include more details. How long have you had the rat, is it a he or a she, how old, how many roommates, how long your play sessions are, what do you do together, how do the other rats interact outside and inside the cage, size of cage etc... I realize it can turn into a rather longish post, but it's important to address the correct issue. I only covered the two most common causes of so called cage aggression. And I honestly can't help much with a specific play of action for you based on what little I know of your situation so far. There might still be something else going on, but listing all of the reasons a rat might misbehave wouldn't do anyone much good.

I hope I helped. If not post more details and maybe we can help diagnose and fix the problem.

Best luck.


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## CatsRatsVeggies

Hello RatDaddy 

Just a question really. We're due to get some little rat angels (males) in about a week, we have the Savis Rat & Ferret Cage Royal Suite 95. We were going to get 3/4 young males but after reading about Immersion, I can't and don't really want to go in any other direction than that! My question is, is it best to get the 3/4 and do Immersion together or is it better to get 2 for now (which is fine by us), do the Immersion of those two together, give them 6 months or such to warm to us and the house, then get 2 more males and introduce them. 

I just wondered which way you would go about this. I've never done Immersion before and I am, as I can imagine many are, quite jittery about doing it in case I do something wrong and back track the progress. So literally, any wise worse off yourself would be more than amazing 

Thank you.


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, immersion is pretty hard to screw up, it's the way rats naturally introduce themselves to each other. As to doing it one on one or in groups this depends on the rats and yourself... Some folks have high energy and love to multitask and they are smart enough to adopt very friendly and social rats. This makes a big group immersion with several rats and the whole family something of a grand play session. 

Some folks adopt dangerous screwed up and biting rats that have to be very deliberately socialized one on one for safety reasons. And some folks aren't good at multi-tasking and work best with any rat one on one.

The size of your group depends on you. I personally prefer owning two rats at a time, it gives me more one on one time with each and more time for training and interacting with them. As rats live about two years, and my rats are about a year apart in age, it has us replacing one rat just about every year. So there's a constant cycle of one rat aging out getting sick and a new rat being socialized and joining our family... Starting out with all of your rats the same age puts you on more of a two year cycle. Again, better is a matter of your preference.

Buying a group of 4 rat pups is nice because you don't have the issue of intros after six months. But again, the question boils down to how many rats can you really have a meaningful relationship with at a time? It is very true that it's best to have at least 2 rats, this gives you freedom to go out and leave the rats together so they aren't alone, but the more rats you have the less time you will have with each. The food costs aren't too much, but the vet bill can run up with 4 rats.

My dad was born in 1918 as the second youngest of 7 children, which was quite common at the time, although my mom, born in 1921 was an only child, I have one daughter and can't imagine how I could handle another child. My dad's dad was a ship captain and was away most of the time sailing the world, my dad's mom put the kids to work and ran a very efficient household with her large "crew" of kids.... older girls raising younger children and the boys working the garden, doing maintenance. The kids went to college or got jobs and helped support the family when they were old enough and as my dad recalls it was a very efficient lifestyle, that even worked after his dad passed away when he was only 13. So 7 kids to me would be a nightmare, to my grandmother it was a salvation. The children distributed themselves all over Europe and the world and they all survived WWII being able to help each other move around and not get killed, and eventually migrate to the US, UK and Canada. My grandmother was taken care of by her children until she passed away. Although my grandmother, born in the late 1800's never had much of a formal education, or worked a "job" she spoke 7 languages fluently and had amazing organizational skills. There are those that might say managing a family of 7 children was a full time job. My point is that the number of rats you own becomes a life style choice and depends on your personality. Balancing a career, a part time job or school, a few kids and 4 rats is tough, but if you'r retired and have lots of time 4 rats can keep you busy and fill your days with love and activity. 

There was a case of a fellow who was hoarding over 3000 rats, as it turned out he only throught he had about 1000... imagine owning over 2000 rats and not even knowing it... that's about how bazaar it can get when you take the rule of more rats means less time with each to the absolute extreme... If you don't know how many rats you should adopt then yes start with two and see how it goes, and yes again introductions can be difficult, but perhaps no more so than raising 4 rats you can't spend enough time with... it's a judgment call... 

Fuzzy Rat was raised as an only rat, she went everywhere with us and had a very intimate relationship with her humans, the time we spent together helped us really understand her and she us and she truly became an amazing personality. The 24 by 7 time price tag that came with that relationship was way too high for most people to consider, but the relationship that developed was remarkable. So it's a trade off between fewer rats and a deeper relationship and more rats and less of a one on one experience... Only child, vs two kids that keep each other company to 7 kids raising each other... it's your choice, each way works best for someone....

I think, I'd like to address the question you didn't ask... the most important thing you can do is to choose the right rats to start with... pre-socialized rats from an ethical breeder are great, as are young friendly pups that are easy to socialize, and sometimes you can get adult rats with a wonderful personality from very unlikely places... but much depends on the rats you adopt. If you find 4 friendly and inquisitive rats right off, that might influence your decision too. But some folks find one really nice rat and adopt a few more to keep it company that aren't friendly so instead of experiencing one great rat they wind up spending most of their time socializing 3 rats with issues... Bulk buying your rats based on a pre-determined quota can shortcut your better judgment. Each rat you adopt should be as perfect as possible when it comes to personality... Remember, it's just like with children... the problem child will take up most of your time and the rat or rats that really want your attention will get neglected. If I had no time or financial concerns and I found 4 perfect rats, I might be tempted to adopt them all, but I certainly wouldn't ever take a rat home unless I was reasonably certain he or she was the right rat for our family. It's easy to get hung up with theoretical scenarios but it's the practical ones that really matter...

I know that was a round about way to give you an answer, but there really is no right answer and I hope it gives you an idea of how to make the decision that's right for you and your new furry friends.


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## zieo92

I've had two rats for about 10 months, although we don't have the best situation, so they have had 6 different caretakers and homes during this time. I know that all of the changes have probably had a negative effect on them, especially Orbit since she is the one I am having some difficulty with. Luna and Orbit were both about 3 months old when we got them from PetSmart (we are first time rat owners and didn't think about pet stores as being a bad option) and it took about 2 weeks before Orbit was willing to come out of the cage to be on our arms and laps. She stopped biting once she got comfortable, but after taking care of them for about 3 months I had to go away for 5 months and they were shuffled around a bit (although they always had their other owner, my roommate, around as much as she could). They've been back with me for 2 months now and Orbit has gone back to biting. She was defensive around her cage at first, but once she got used to me again she stopped biting when I reach in the cage. I moved their free range area to the bathroom since Orbit was getting stressed about places in my room that were off limits and was biting me out of frustration when I would pick her up to remove her from those areas. Now, she is afraid of my hands and bites me whenever I pick her up and occasionally after she sniffs my fingers. 

The other day, Orbit bit me as I was holding her and I inadvertently shook her off my finger and she hit the door (not too hard) on her way down and was afraid of me fot the rest of the day. Yesterday we were in the bathroom and Luna went to sleep in a corner, so I had lots of time to interact one on one with Orbit. She is always perfectly happy being around me, and on me, as long as I am not holding her or picking her up. She is ok with standing on my hand as I help her get from my shoulder to my leg. She was spending a lot more time with me than usual and eventually came up beside me and flattened out on the floor while looking at me and bruxing so much that her eyes were vibrating (the first time she has ever done that). She let me scratch her on top of her head and closed her eyes as I did, and after a minute she rolled over on her back. This is so far away from anything I have ever seen her do that I'm hoping she's rethinking where we each stand in the group. However, a few minutes later she was standing nearby so I moved my hand toward her and she flinched as though she was scared. When I moved my hand closer, she sniffed my fingers and then bit one. I blew on her and said "no", but I don't think that she really understands that method very well. Today, she was eager to see me and I could see her eyes were bulging a bit from bruxing but she still bit my finger after sniffing it when it was simply flat in front of her.

I am confused about whether or not we have made progress and would appreciate any and all help with creating a better relationship with Orbit.


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## Rat Daddy

I'm not sure I understand your use of the word bit or bite... most folks who have bone deep gashes tend to be more descriptive of the event... I'm not sure if we are talking about nip or bite... I understand some folks are more understated and might refer to a river of blood as a nip... 

Rats sometimes nip to communicate all kinds of things, like take me out of the cage, I want food, or whatever else... Your rat may be used to more free range with your roommate and be unhappy with not being able to explore... A nip might be communication... a river of blood and a bite to the bone is almost always a rat being angry, terrified or controlling... It's either saying get out of my way or go away...

Either way, it's important to try and understand what your rat wants as it is also important to discourage the behavior.... I have a wild born parrot that gets lonely sometimes, so when he wants attention, he bites... Likely if he were biting another parrot's feathers it wouldn't hurt, but skin is soft and the kind of attention he gets isn't always what he wants.

Having different owners means Orbit has lived under different rules. Max our big girl has lived free range in the house since she was a pup. She's the first rat we've ever owned that has never cut a wire... she has tried to chew through a locked door because I made a room off limits, but I sort of understand that she wanted to get to her nest in that room and it was part of her play and living area and she's now locked out... If I were to change her life and keep her in a cage she would most likely be very upset... I'm not sure she would bite, but it is certainly possible. She has been very good and earned our trust and she has almost complete freedom to come and go as she pleases... and I honestly believe she understands the deal we have, breaking the deal would be a breach of trust and I wouldn't blame her for freaking out one bit. With different care takers Orbit has had different rules and this plus friends coming and going is likely causing the behavior. Try and find out what rules she was living with and what she was doing when the other people cared for her to see what might have changed... Maybe she used to free ranging a house or bedroom and doesn't understand why she can't do it now?

As to discouraging the biting behavior, again that's not to say you shouldn't try and understand her, a gentle bop (with love in your heart) accompanied with a loud "NO BITING" usually helps to tell a rat that the method of communication is off the table. Obviously if she's attacking you to push you around, you have to be a bit more forceful until she understands you are the parent (alpha) now.

Again, it's hard to interpret the level of your problem, from the calm and composed way you write... 

Remember when she rolls over, she is offering you her friendship and she expects you to really skritch the heck out of her belly and to show your love and appreciation. This is not a simple act of submission, it's an offer of friendship, its a very special moment to a rat and it expects to be rewarded in a very big way... If you don't respond by fawning all over her, you are rejecting her offer of friendship and that's a big offence. Imagine if you honestly told someone you love them and they just walk away... this is what ending an immersion session abruptly with a rat rolling over or not properly rewarding the behavior feels like to your rat... 

But in general, you are on target... it seems like you are re-building your bonds. You still have to address the biting issue, both by trying to understand why Orbit is biting and by strongly discouraging the inappropriate behavior and you really need to build on the rollover event. Once it's safe to handle Orbit, I'd try and challenge her by carrying her around more and maybe letting her do more exploring... 

Being a rat parent isn't always easy... especially when you have a rat that's been trough a unique situation or series of situations... So, it's "I love you, and I want to understand you, but no you can't bite me..." 

Which message has priority? Sounds odd, but it's actually NO BITING. Rats that bite are dangerous and should never be kept as pets. My part wild rat went right for the face when play fighting... She was only playing and never broke the skin... but she could have easily blinded my (then) 5 year old daughter if she wanted to... In all reality she loved my daughter and would never hurt her... but she shredded my neighbor's hand, punctured our other rats trachea and took a chunk out of my palm... she was part wild so we had to cut her more slack, but if my neighbor went to the hospital it would have cost me big money in the emergency room and that was only for his hand... if she got to his face, it would have even been a lot worse. That rat was very special and we had to make allowances for her, she had a reason for being what she was... but there's no excuse for domestic rats to bite... having come that close to a thousand dollar plus emergency room bill... trust me when I say biting is always your top priority.


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## zieo92

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm not sure I understand your use of the word bit or bite... most folks who have bone deep gashes tend to be more descriptive of the event... I'm not sure if we are talking about nip or bite... I understand some folks are more understated and might refer to a river of blood as a nip...


I think I've gotten so used to talking about her bites that I don't get overly upset about them anymore, which is helpful with dealing with it. Every once in a while when she sniffs my fingers and then bites it is just deep enough to draw blood and heals very quickly. I'm not sure what the cause of that is since those bites are when I am offering my hand to her so she can sniff it. When I pick her up, however, it is a bigger bite that produces a lot of blood (luckily she's not completely splitting my finger open though). She used to give me warning nips when I would pick her up, no blood drawn, but has given up on that step since nipping wasn't getting her way. She only goes after fingers, and for some reason my thumb in particular.

I will have to talk to the people who took care of her before, because I think she did have different areas to explore and different rules. Thank you very much for your input, I have learned a lot from reading your posts! I will continue working with Orbit to help her understand our relationship and hopefully she will offer her belly to me again so I can fix that mistake.


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## Gannyaan

That's really strange behaviour ; there should be some kind of improvement or change over time, but since she's moved around a lot it's hard  

Can you devote some time to spend with just orbit daily? Even half an hour per day to give her treats, watch her explore a small room etc... You can get to know her and build trust that way. 

I have a very weird girl who has a strange personality due to her living conditions before I got her. She's jut "different"- will not let anyone except me hold her, is startled by new people. But, as I got to know her, I realised she actually loves being talked to and touched extremely gently, and is okay with being picked up if you move very slowly. She loves me now, and I love her, but it took time and patience. 

Most rats can acclimate to being great pets really quickly. But some rats have "issues".


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Rat Daddy

I agree with Gannyann that you should work with your rat every day to play and explore together and build on your bond and relationship... But I don't believe that half an hour a day is sufficient to really make a major behavioral change within a reasonable time... In fact being put back in the cage that quickly might confuse a rat into thinking it's being rewarded for biting you by being put back into it's cage.

This in fact was one of the big flaws in trust training and forced socialization, people put their rats back into their cage before real progress was made... 

So every day folks would take their rats out of the cage, then they would get bitten or nipped and put their rats back into the cage to tend to their wounds, then rinse and repeat the same thing every day... Rats learned to bite faster and folks eventually learned not to take their rats out to avoid getting bitten... 

The post that I replied to, that was actually the first time I posted was a person that had been rinse and repeating getting bitten for 3 months... Needless to say they were at wits end. One night of extreme immersion fixed that rat and the next morning the OP wrote that he had spent the whole night up with his new best buddy.. In fact lots of folks read that thread, and started doing extreme immersion successfully with their problem rats and it's actually why extreme immersion was introduced before normal immersion. 

Use the long session to bond and fix the biting behavior. Then the short ones to maintain your relationship. Most folks recommend a couple of hours out of the cage every day anyway... My rats free range all day, and Max lives completely free range... so to me half an hour seems short for even a normal play session.

Nothing can screw up a good immersion result faster than failing to follow it up with play, training and out of cage time. Immersion isn't the end of socialization, it's only the beginning.


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## theAfanc

I really wish I had found this a week ago, before I got my boys.

My big boy was warming up to me great. He came up to me and cuddled my hand and took treats. But he has been at the vet for two days and I probably won't be getting him back for at least four days so when he gets home, I plan to try this with him to reseal our bond.

My little boy is scared. He really loved cuddling the bigger one and now he is gone and alone. I have tried to reach in to pet him but he squishes into the corner to get away from me. When I reach more and he realizes that isn't working, he climbs up the side of the cage, just barely out of my reach. I want him to love me and to trust me but I don't want to scare him any more. I gave him a bed that I made and slept with and carried with me for a whole day so it would smell like me and he slept under it last night and seems to like it but he still runs away. I can't get to him to take him to a neutral place or to try the immersion training. What can I do, at this point in our relationship, to tell him that I am his friend? I was hoping that with the big guy gone for a few days, we could bond but I think it has only set us back.

Thank you for your help, this article is fantastic and I will always use this technique with my future babies!


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## Rat Daddy

It sounds counter-intuitive that you sometimes have to scare a rat to befriend it. But sometimes that's what you have to do.... As long as your rat is hiding from you you aren't doing much socializing.

There's a certain school of thought which says that a rat will just sit in a corner for so long and then it will approach you out of curiosity. And in fact this works with rats that basically aren't afraid of you. But with fearful rats they can stay in their corner for a very long time and practically never overcome their fear to meet you and find out that you are friendly. Over the years I've had lots of wild mice in my house and to be completely honest, none ever came near me. Similarly I know folks that have had rats in their house and none ever just decided to meet the human family members out of curiosity... A rat that's afraid of humans, left alone, is more likely to become more antisocial over time than it is to become your best friend. 

Of course you don't want to terrify your new rat, but sometimes you do have to take the initiative and make first contact. Sooner or later you are going to have to get your frightened rat out of the cage and into the immersion area and introduce yourself. And it may go slow, depending on how frightened he is, or why he is afraid of people, but chances are that until you do, nothing is going to happen if you do nothing. Yes, be gentle and comforting, but also be engaging and challenge his perception of you as a threat. There is nothing worse for a rat or a human to be alone and afraid so addressing your situation sooner rather then later will actually make it easier in the long run.

Congrats on your new boys and best luck.


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## theAfanc

So I took him into my bathroom and sat with him. He ran up my body and sat on my shoulder and snuggled into my hair. he kept nuzzling my neck and nibbling my ear. I moved him to my lap and he ran back up. I put him on the ground and he tried to climb my leg but couldn't and ran I a corner and stayed there until I picked him up and he ran to my shoulder again.

I stood up and walked in circles and he was fine. I took this picture of him and I don't know if he is comfortable or freaking out :/


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## CatsRatsVeggies

If he runs into a corner, instead of picking him back up, why not sit in the corner with him and give him so love? I almost try to shelter mine in the corner to let them know I'm trying to protect them whilst giving them some stokes/skritches to let them know its okay and I'm not going to hurt them. My Arthur will happily sit in my lap/pocket for a while then walk off me and back into a corner, so this tends to be what I do. If he doesn't venture out the corner in (I tend to do) 10 minutes, thats when I then scoop him up again for loving on my lap.  He's still very very scared but with rats that are timid, I find the softly (but always in their face) approach will work better for them.


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## Rat Daddy

Because immersion was breach birthed, via extreme immersion, fixing really screwed up biting rats that were in emergency need before I worked up this guide, some folks think that engaging has to be aggressive, which it most certainly doesn't when you aren't dealing with a screwed up biting rat. Gentle and playful is the best way to engage most rats.

Actual screwed up rats were going to be pts or given away and I couldn't very well ignore them when I knew how to save them because I hadn't gotten around to writing a more complete guide. Then when I got around to doing what I intended, writing a guide for humans to bond with normal rats the extreme variant was already the core element most people thought of when they thought immersion rather than the special case footnote I had intended it to be... To be clear immersion should be engagement through play and friendly interaction, building bonds through communication and trust... In the extreme varient the first goal of your communication is to develop respect and pack order so you stop getting bitten and can start to build your bond of friendship and trust. So yes softly but always in their face is a good way to put immersion for shy and timid rats... I like that wording...

theAfanc,

Your rat is both afraid and coming to you for protection. Folks often wrongly assume that rats feel safe in their cage or in a corner because they assume their rats are afraid of them. This is often far from the truth. Rats are often way more afraid of being alone than being with humans. They may not be entirely bonded to you and they may even be afraid if you but they are way more afraid of being abandoned... Rats are social animals and derive security and strength from their bonds with their humans and other rats.

Be happy your rat wants your protection and capitalize on it. Be gentle and comforting and when he starts looking more comfortable be more playful and lead him in his exploration of the immersion space and eventually your home. Making a lost and frightened rat feel welcome in your home and protected by you is a great way to kick start your friendship. Rats like and fall in love with people who protect them and make them feel safe, I think humans do too. Communicate the message, "I'm here for you" and "you are safe with me." And you will be on the right foot to begin a life long friendship.

Best luck.


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## Rattienewby

Thank you so much for this guide! I just got my first 2 rats, they're babies...only about 4 1/2 weeks old at this time. They're doing GREAT!! Have come up to me since day 1, will eat from my hand, etc. During our free range time in the bathroom they tend to stay near me 95% of the time, but I've lured them out with some of their favorite toys to have some fun. They're just SO tiny that time out of the cage right now is limited to only a bit of time in the bathroom. Definitely playing a ton though with the big door of their cage open. And they like to snuggle for a few minutes at a time in a little pouch I made for them. Feeling pretty good about how things are going, hoping this continues


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## Rat Daddy

You can also carry them around the house and try and expand their play area so they become house competent... don't worry too much about them getting lost... rat pups do get under and into stuff, but they really don't get lost, they turn up when they are hungry or better yet when you call them... Remember rats are born explorers and adventurers, try to pick places where they are easy to recover but try and make their world as big as you can. Rats really love to explore with their human parents. In any case it sounds like you are doing a great job so far.


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## ratsaremylife

I have a rat, she is not quite aggressive but not quite ignoring. When she is in the cage, she will most likely bite you, or run away. When she is out she just nibbles lightly before heading off to explore, she'll come over and visit now and then but if you make a sharp movement she runs. If I get in her face, pet her, and stuff, she squeaks and runs. I can't really pet her because she scrunches her back and squeaks. What can I do?


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## Rat Daddy

Basically, she sounds like she's a pretty normal rat that hasn't been fully socialized or bonded with you (not knowing the details)... I'd just start the basic immersion process and see how it goes. After 35 pages, recapping the entire process seems a little repetitive. But you might consider starting a new thread on your immersion session and get help from the entire community as you go along. Pretty much start out doing the immersion and folks will help you cross whatever bridges you come to when you get there. Also start the thread by providing as much information as you can about your rat. That will help us to give you better answers to what you are seeing as you go along.

Best luck.


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## Cyrix

Hey Rat Daddy, would greatly appreciate your advice in this thread: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?222745-How-much-immersion-is-too-much&p=1578601 In short, my GF has doing these sort of 5-15 minute "power-immersion" sessions with the rats, up to 3-4 times a week, with the intent of making them brux. She hardly speaks to them or offers them treats during the sessions, and the whole thing just concerns me - but the rats seem to be improving...


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## Rat Daddy

I've commented on your thread. But for the general purposes here, there's no such thing as "power immersion" after immersion which is a long session, you move on to training and play sessions which are always better longer than just 5 minutes... Our girl Max likes 5 minute encounters and then she moves on but she may do a couple to several a day depending on her mood and what kind of food I have on my desk or where she needs me to carry her to. She's just not a touchy feely rat, and she doesn't brux or boggle, she prefers to mostly keep to herself...

Now today we went out and left her all alone and she's giving me the cold shoulder and not coming out... when I'm not around when she wants me she gets all huffy and avoids me. If I really upset her I might not see her for days. She may not want to be in my lap or around me all of the time, but she likes to know I'm around and available when she does. Max was bottle fed and hand raised and slept with me as a pup, we have no issues with bonding and she's a true shoulder rat... she's also a recluse that prefers to be left alone most of the time.. it's her personality and not something I'm going to change. So yes it's 5 minutes, but more than just a few times a week when it fits into my schedule.

Best luck.


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## Cyrix

We do play with them for at least an hour a day, the immersion sessions are not the only time they get out of the cage.


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## Rat Daddy

I didn't think it you were only spending 5 minutes every few days with your rats, but I wanted to address the "power immersion" terminology... it's catchy and catchy phrases take on a life of their own on the internet... So to be clear there's no such thing as power immersion... it's a cool term, but not a real technique...


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## Cyrix

Ah, ok, sorry for the confusion. I was just trying to think of a short phrase to describe it.


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## new_rattie_mommy

This is more of an alpha question as I have already completed immersion. I got my first 2 rats about 3 months ago. i didn't know about immersion at the time so I used whatever I came up with on my own, which was basically trust training. I spent tons of time with them, feeding them treats, and handling them every so often. They were both pet store rats so it took a while but my alpha, more outgoing, and very hyper rat came around within a couple weeks and we have a great relationship. He is very mischievous though, because I think he gets bored easily. I am working on using his mental energy for learning tricks but he tends to get into anything he shouldn't. My other boy, Lily, is very timid and calm, and used to be the dominant one because he is bigger but he has now taken a completely submissive role. They live in peace without many play fights because of it. Lily never warmed up to me in the way that daisy did. He trusts me as his alpha and gives me affection by hanging out by me and giving me a few kisses and maybe a grooming but he absolutely hates being pet or held. Idk if it is a fear thing and he doesn't completely trust what i'm doing or if he just doesn't like it. I did a couple immersion sessions with him, although I didn't stay hours with him, and I definitely had a lot of progress. Now I am just respecting his wishes most of the time, giving him affection by talking to him and such, but I still hold him a few times a day and love on him for a minute and I would never let him go until he submits to me, which he does very quickly now. He always holds still once I caught him but he puts up a fuss as I try to catch him. I know that he understands I am in charge though, because he is very well behaved and when he does start to do something naughty (his favorite thing is digging in the corner of my carpet) I can say Lily no! and he will immediately look at me and move on to the next thing.

I have a question about both of them. My question about the timid Lily is, since it has already been almost 3 months, and I know he loves me but still doesn't like to be pet, is he going to possibly come around? Or is he just a rat who doesn't like a lot of affection? He is making slight progress even at this point because he used to not come by me at all during playtime and likes to go hide in my closet but lately he has been coming by me and hanging out for a bit several times a day. he even occasionally lets me pet him, although he looks at me like Im a crazy person. I'd like to know whether I should push him to get better with that or respect his wishes?

My question about my alpha boy daisy is, he loves me to death and when I get up to do something he jumps at my feet until I pick him up and take him with me. he is constantly grooming me and giving me kisses. But he can be so naughty, getting into things he shouldn't. Even though my room is rat proofed he always shows me he is capable of something naughty I didn't think he could do. he actually climbed my 4 foot tall dresser today by using the handles lol. When he does something absolutely unacceptable and I try to stop him with just my voice he suddenly pretends he doesn't know his name. But yet I could call him from the top shelf of my closet and he will get down and come to me. He ignores me completely until I actually go pick him up to stop him. I want to know if he understands I am in charge or if he thinks he is alpha and if my correction is a good way to go about stopping him from behaving badly. When I can't get him to listen to me I pick him up and tell him no firmly. I try to boop his nose also. Then I'm confused about when to give him love because I have heard you need to also give them love after you correct them. I usually correct him and then put him on my shoulder for a minute and then I give him positive attention. Idk how long to wait though before you should reinforce with positive and am I correcting him right? also do you think he knows I am in charge or if he thinks he's the boss over me and lily?


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## Rat Daddy

First to Lily, some rats are more retiring and reclusive than others... this is a personality issue and not a leadership issue... Keep being engaging and available and things will keep getting better slowly and then up to a point. Our big girl Max is lazy, and will come to me to be picked up and she knows how to point to where she wants to go and be taken there, she also asks for food when she's hungry, but she mostly keeps to herself and only allows me to per her when she's on her own feet... No petting while I'm holding her, unless she's grooming my teeth... then she's fine with it... She is a brilliant rat, and she lives completely free range in the house but her life is full of rules and if I break them she will go into hiding for days... No she's not the alpha, but she's strongly independent and confident, not to mention capable.

Now Daisy is a different story, he's bright and bored and he's making mischief to get attention. Fuzzy Rat the actiat rat co-founder of immersion was a rat like Daisy.. left to her own devices she was destructive, and she would slash her way through every wire in the house to get attention... she targeted telephone lines and computer cables and headphones as she saw those as being the most distracting to her humans. And she learned to ignore little bops because she knew no one was really going to hurt her. 

So she became a true shoulder rat, she climbed trees, and swam in the lake and walked a heel and hung out with the local stony teenagers and appeared at public events and entertained handicapped kids she would even disappear and go off on adventures of her own but she always came back. She enjoyed a fabulous life of adventure and went everywhere with us.... and in winter or when we were otherwise occupied, she kept herself busy by building secret nests out of stuff she stole and generally destroying the house....

Hopefully, for your sake, Daisy isn't quite as "gifted" as Fuzzy Rat was... But I wrote a thread on shoulder rat training and out of home activities. A visit to a safe site might be a good challenge for Daisy. And he might be a good candidate for further shoulder rat training if you can't pose enough worth while challenges for him indoors.

The situation you describe doesn't appear to be an alpha issue, but a personality one... Just because your kids are different and act up doesn't mean they are challenging your authority, nor do you want to be overly controlling. Some times the right parental thing to do is to support their individuality and keep the bored ones challenged and the more withdrawn ones feeling protected so they come out of their shells more. 

I know there's a certain mental image that comes to mind when we use the term pack. But rat packs are more like human families than military units. You are more of a mom than a sergeant. Remember your rats are communicating with you and some times you have to follow their lead so they feel empowered too.

I hope that helps.... best luck.


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## travail.cat

I just got my rats yesterday they are pretty smal






rain is the grey one and cloud the lighter one... cloud will readily take treats and cuddle and love even brux. rain on the other hand is pretty skittish. while in emerssion she still didnt take any treats but constantly does run and sit in my lap and groom herself. she does jump at every sound made (I have a snuffly nose right now and when I sniffle she gets realy scared.) any tips on this?


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## Rat Daddy

Sooner or later all of your rats will have to get used to the strange sounds you make, just keep engaging Rain, try and be reassuring and welcoming... Sometimes new rats are skittish, sometimes they were handled roughly at their former home and you have to work through a little initial apprehension. Just because she's skittish now doesn't mean she won't come around and be just as warm and friendly as your Cloud. Usually when rats groom they are thinking so that's good, and she's on your lap which is even better. Some rats warm up faster and are overall friendlier than others. Sometimes the reluctant ones become the more attached rats, there's no hard and fast rule and every rat is different. It sounds like you are doing just fine... Keep up the great work try and be playful and have some fun while you're at it

Best luck.


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## Jackie

I just got a negative reaction to suggesting immersion and linking this thread in which a fb admin said: *"Briefly, immersion is a form of "flooding" and causing the recipient to go into "learned helplessness" as in giving up because choice has been taken away. It would be the same as putting me in a crowded elevator, forcing me to stay there until I gave up my feelings of claustrophobia. Or I might get so stressed I get sick."

*For a brief moment I forgot the rule in the group of only using medically sourced and etc. accredited sources and what have you. I wasn't going to argue because I was in the wrong there for not posting something that is from a legitimate source, but I do just see it as bonding. I thanked her for her perspective. I was kinda sad that I was essentially told it was opposed in the group so I deleted the post. Now that person won't be able to try it at all unless they just look it up for themselves. If spending time with a problem rat is wrong, I don't want to be right! Mind you my girls have been very sweet (all used to people before I adopted them, so I haven't had to use this method). But I regard it as a safe method and regard you as a rat guru. What are your thoughts?


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## Rat Daddy

I'm saddened and disappointed that some folks still feel that immersion is a personal challenge to their authority. By trying to protect their own status and blocking the open discussion of immersion and immersion theory on their sites, they are denying other folks the help they and their rats need. It's 1:00 AM and those are my first thoughts... If I get a chance I might better address this tomorrow...


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## CCoyle

Rat Daddy,

First I want to say that I've read much of what you've posted here and I greatly respect your experience and insight on rat behavior. It certainly exceeds mine. I did have some concerns about flooding when reading about the immersion method so I would love it if you could address that. Also, being more familiar with what's going on in the dog training world, the talk of alpha, dominance and submission concern me as well. Of course, rats are not dogs. Do you have sources that I could look at to better understand these issues?

Thank you!


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## Rat Daddy

We've known for a long time that certain web site owners have been blocking any discussion of immersion or immersion theory. They are promoting practices of their own and actively discourage competing points of view, immersion included...


But let's backtrack for a moment...

At this stage of the game, I don't think I have to defend either immersion as a method or as a theory. Simply put it's been tried and tested and by far, most people report developing excellent relationships with their rats, often seeing improvement in one session. Immersion has been successfully done by many different people with many different rats in many different variations. Even the most controversial flavor of immersion, extreme immersion has fixed rats that would otherwise have wound up being put to sleep. It's even worked with neutered rats that weren't fixed by surgery. There still have been no reports of either humans or rats being turned into zombies by immersion. 

There comes a point when the overwhelming body of evidence speaks for itself. If someone insists that the world is flat or that the Sun circles the Earth, there comes a point where it's best to leave them to their point of view. Mostly people don't understand things they don't want to understand. It gets even harder when they feel they have a vested interest in their point of view. It's easier to sell rooms at a local beach resort if you can convince people they might accidentally fall off the earth on the way to the Bahamas. 

When people call immersion "flooding" they are simply looking for a derogatory name to call it. Like operand conditioning and behavior modification was once called "brain washing". I'm not sure that either brain washing or flooding are the appropriate terms for anything, but they sure sound sinister, don't they? If you don't like someone and you don't have a legitimate rationale to defend your position, call your opponent a derogatory name. Kids do it every day on the playground. It's an ancient propaganda technique. If you start out a debate by re-branding your opponent as a Nazi or a Communist or a pedophile, you don't really need to argue against his or her positions or logic. By likening immersion which is a common and successful technique to an obscure derogatory term, the object of the exercise is to redefine something good as something inherently evil without presenting a single shred of evidence against it. One would suppose that if someone would legitimately argue against immersion they should be able to produce some zombie rats by now to prove their point. 

Another technique is to draw a logically absurd analogy like the elevator example. First of all rats prefer small spaces, I have never met a single claustrophobic rat. In fact, as a shoulder rat trainer and handler, I can say with great certainty that more rats are agoraphobic rather than claustrophobic and it's much harder to train rats out in the middle of an open field than in a small space. If you want to induce a panic attack in most rats take them out into the middle of a mall parking lot on a Sunday when there are no cars... The immersion area is chosen to be as comfortable for the rat as possible so it doesn't feel threatened and can more easily get to know it's human. Most people use bathrooms or hallways where a rat has plenty of room to withdraw when it needs to, preferably without getting lost in the furnishings. In any event, the immersion area is larger than the cage most rats are already accustomed to... 

If we were to stretch the elevator analogy to some bazaar point and suggest that it's intended to suggest that immersion works by introducing a rat to a human it's afraid or uncertain of, this might be vaguely relevant. You want your rat to get to know you and feel comfortable around you so you introduce yourself. Which seems to make sense. I suppose if I were treating someone for claustrophobia, I might consider at some time making that person feel more secure in a smaller area. In fact that might even be the object of the exercise. Even if an elevator might be uncomfortable for the patient, I'm not sure anyone has ever suggested treating claustrophobia on an airport runway. Likewise, if you are going to get to know your rat and your rat is supposed to get to know you, you might want to spend some time in the same room together. 

I think that many people tend to think that all web sites are alike, which they are not. Some like Rat Forum allow a wide variety of open discussions and encourage people to innovate and share their experiences. But web sites are actually the property of their owners. And certain web site owners, including moderators and administrators use their web sites as a platform for their opinions and practices and as a tool to gratify their egos. In fact, I tend to believe that some feel their status depends on everyone respecting them and doing things their way. So when a new method or theory turns up they feel personally challenged and undermined. It's even worse when the new method works better than what they have been flogging for decades. So when you suggested immersion, someone basically tried to shut you down and perhaps insult your intelligence and experience and got you to take down your post by setting up some rules by which you couldn't express your honest opinion. If everyone had to footnote every post they made with clinical studies I dare say there wouldn't be many posts or discussions on the internet. And if no one could present a novel idea, there wouldn't be any. It isn't that people can't document their positions, it's just not worth the bother. Sure, I could go to whatever web site you visited and add any number of links to successful immersions anyone would want... but seriously... no one is paying me to do that much work, and as it undermines the powers that be there, I'd fully expect for my remarks to be deleted or at the least severely unwelcome. Secondly by attacking immersion, people are being discouraged from going elsewhere where immersion is practiced.

A friend of mine, is one of the best and most famous fresh water tropical fish experts. He has two species of fish that he described and named after himself. He's explored the jungles of South America and even Cuba to discover new species. He's about the best in his field and he's an older gentleman. He's current with the newest medications and developments and spends much of his time keeping up on new approaches and treatments, that's not to say he doesn't still use 50 year old methods that work, but if you want to know what cutting edge or state of the art is or what works best, you can safely ask him and rely on his advise. He was the best 50 years ago and he's still the best today because he adapts and constantly improves what he does. His status isn't dependent on him having been right long ago, rather people come to his lectures to find out what's new and improved as well as what methods he's tested and proven. He would make a great example for the folks that feel their expertise and status depends on defending ideas that had their time in the sun and don't work as well as more modern methods. Basically, some folks are clinging to respect and status by blocking all discussion of immersion, like someone might block the sun with their hand and deny it's existence. 

Rat forum has an excellent thread on trust training and forced socialization and it was written by the site administrator a rat expert I do very much respect. It was posted before immersion, but it is still there so everyone can read the alternative approaches and judge for themselves what they want to do. No one has ever been forced to try immersion. Folks try it and they succeed, and other folks try it and have similar results. That's the only reason it's being done. And I suspect that's also the only reason immersion discussions are banned or discouraged on a few other web sites. 

I know I've been personally insulted and attacked on certain other sites... on the other hand I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable being called a rat guru either... But none of the methods I've ever proposed work because I proposed them; rather folks ask me for help because my methods work for them. If immersion and my other unorthodox methods didn't work, no one would be suggesting I was a rat guru.

I don't run a web site, I don't get paid by clicks. I'm not selling anything. If immersion helps people, I'm gratified and happy that I've helped someone, that's the only reward I get from it. No one knows me as Rat Daddy locally, so you can bet I don't get a whole lot of respect or adoration for my contributions to the rat community in real life. I'm not flogging a book or lecture tour. I personally have nothing to lose or gain from immersion. Hopefully, the last remaining hold out sites will see how immersion can benefit their members and let go of their resentment and hostility. It really is easier to accept change than to stop the rising tide even if you prefer another method personally. No one is suggesting that anyone gives up what they believe in, just that they present all of the options fairly and let people choose for themselves. Let the best method win.

Lastly, consider for one moment what you have experienced, if you have any doubts... you went to another web site and brought up immersion and you wound up saddened and deleting your post. You came here and re-posted their reply here and we're having an open public discussion about it. Immersion advocates are open minded and happy to discuss any other approach, and even willing to take good ideas and adopt them when presented. Immersion is evolving and even branching into flavors like group immersion, immersion introductions and even immersion with other animals involved... and people are constantly reporting various morphs that worked exceptionally well for them. And immersion and immersion theory have become a much larger umbrella than I originally envisioned them to be, sometimes fixing problems they weren't originally intended to solve. And everyone is welcome to bring in their own tweaks to improve the process or modify it to their special circumstances and personality... It's an organic socialization process that's growing organically. 

I'm going to be the first to admit that before I was ever right, I was usually wrong first. And I've appreciated every effort anyone has put into setting me straight. But I know it's hard to change and it's human to defend you opinion. And it's easy to get confused that your status depends on you being right all of the time... which simply isn't possible, nor is it true. I suppose I feel sorry for anyone painting themselves into a corner and sad that some folks are being denied the benefits of immersion and immersion theory, but for now and until certain site owners open their minds and their sites to competing theories people will just have to come here to learn about immersion and to feel free to express their own honest opinions and start discussions just like you have done... 

When it comes to web sites that actively block immersion discussions... I'm apparently better at fixing rats than certain humans. At least rats will eventually give you a fair chance to change their minds.

History is full of cases of intolerance I can recall the time before civil rights and gay rights and long before my time, Christians were once fed to lions and witches were burned... It wasn't so long ago when an amazing little rat insisted on reaching out to me and being understood and when I shared the benefits of my epiphany with one other person. 42,000 reads later and countless successful immersions all over the world, and there are better mixed human and rat families as a result and actual rats have been saved from being put to sleep or worse. Frankly I'm amazed how fast immersion has spread and is spreading. There are even YouTube videos. I may be sad that some sites are still failing to accept progress, but I'm certainly not discouraged. Immersion works, has great results and until something comes along that works better it's going to keep spreading. And if something does come along some day that works better, it's most likely going to be a morph of immersion, and you can bet I'll be a part of it. It's all about making the world a better place for rats and their humans.

Once there was a rat that wanted to be understood and to communicate with her humans, Fuzzy Rat was a feeder bin refugee rescued at only 3 weeks old, she lived an amazing life as a true shoulder rat, she entertained handicapped children and was welcomed almost everywhere she went, she taught my daughter how to make friends. She made hundreds of friends of her own. Some children that met her still ask about her and tear up when they hear she is gone... Her life was all about overcoming challenges and adversity and most of all it was about love. Immersion is based on communication, understanding, respect and love and it's still true to it's most humble beginnings. It's all about building and building on a genuine emotional relationship between a rat and a human. She's gone and we're still building bonds and fixing rats... and that's way more than good enough for me... In fact knowing the real Fuzzy Rat and sharing her life with her, was one of the best experiences of my life.... even if no one ever tried immersion... ever. You see, I won this debate before it ever started. All I've ever done is to help other folks have the same kind of relationship we have with our rats... no one has ever been forced to try immersion. Whether some web sites ban immersion or not, there's nothing they can say or do to change the reality or our track record of successes. We, collectively as people that have done immersion have improved our own lives, and we've improved the lives of our rats and we help other people with their rats and there's no sign of it slowing down. So while I may feel sad for people that don't get the opportunity to try immersion, I was blessed to know the real Fuzzy Rat, I was happy to help the first person fix their biting rat based on that relationship and my other observations of and experiences with other rats, I was thrilled to see so many people try it and have so much success and I'm ecstatic to see other people coaching more people in the theory and the techniques. Building one lifetime relationship or fixing one problem rat at a time... that's what we do best and we're having a great time doing it. Maintaining control of a web site you pay for or fending off newer and better methods in order to maintain your status and feed your ego may be rewarding, but nobody is having more fun with their rats and helping each other than we are. 

As to the future... with a core philosophy based on communication, understanding, respect, the inherent intelligence of both rats and humans, community, love and success, rather than a rigid methodology, I'm thinking we're on the right side of history too... From an amazing rat with a silly name to where ever this goes, we're all going to have a great time getting there and building relationships and fixing rats along the way... 

It might sound pretty simplistic for a supposed "rat guru" but those are my thoughts. I suppose, I learned most of what I know about rats from rats... and rats have a way of keeping things pretty simplistic. When we bring a new rat into the immersion area, we are asking it to let go of all of the things it thinks it knows about humans and open it's mind to who we really are and rats can do just that. They even learn to love us, faults and all. For the most part I think most humans can do the same. When it comes to certain web site owners and administrators... I suspect that still remains to be proven... When they are willing to give immersion a chance we'll be happy to help them and their members too.. there's no reason to be afraid of immersion and those folks that have done immersion, our rats don't bite and either do we.


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## Rat Daddy

Ccoyle,

I'm no expert on flooding and I don't actually recall ever seeing the term in any of my psychology text books as a legitimate or successful method to socialize anyone or anything. I suppose the best explanation that comes to mind is when a bad cop brow beats or sweats a false confession out of an innocent person. It practically connotes a sinister purpose. I mean you don't generally "flood" a mass murder into confession. And lots of people have been questioned about crimes they didn't commit and they didn't make false confessions or have psychotic breaks. Just because you are in the same space with someone and the situation isn't of your choosing originally doesn't mean you are being 'flooded' or harmed.

I've had police officer friends and I've hung out with them and have gotten to know them pretty well. Just because I've sat around drinking beer for a few hours and we got to know each other does't mean I was flooded as far as I can tell. Well, I suppose that depends on how much beer I drank.

Sitting down and spending time with your rat and getting to know each other is about as far from "flooding" both in intent and actual interaction as you can get. Yes you are engaging your rat, with good intention and in hopes of initiating meaningful communication and pleasant interaction. Your not punishing your rat or making things intentionally uncomfortable for him.... you can bring treats and water if the session runs long to make him more comfortable... certainly you aren't shining a harsh light on him and denying him water and cigarettes or beating him with a hose.

Again I'm not expert on flooding, but the term as it's being used is nothing more than name calling. Seriously, our rats are happy, well adjusted and friendly true shoulder rats, that mostly live free range in our house and come to us to play and for affection and food and they travel with us outdoors, am I to assume that our rats suffer from Stockholm syndrome too? 

When you do immersion you control the engagement not necessarily the interaction. The rat is pretty much free to respond how it will to you engaging him to which you reply in the appropriate way to show him you are a friend. In the case of extreme immersion you defend yourself when your rat attacks you so he understands that you are the parent in the relationship... which brings me to the next question...

I think some dog trainers have taken the pack order thing way over the top. Having seen a couple of packs of "wild" dogs roaming about in a bad neighborhood I lived in some years ago, they do seem to have a pack structure and they do tend to follow one dog. But it's a consensual relationship based on leadership. I never saw the lead dog chasing or herding the other dogs, they just seemed to follow the leader. Taken to that level, asking our dogs to follow our lead and to show us the kind of respect good parents deserve, is a long way from some of the things some folks are saying about being an alpha. For the most part, my dogs have responded best to encouragement and love with only the least reliance on occasional reprimand when absolutely necessary. Of course I deserve some degree of respect and usually I always got it. I have seen a case where the human was afraid of his dog and it actually pushed him around. Once you see what a relationship looks like with a dog in charge you will most likely never let it happen to you.

For the most part the parental relationship evolves naturally between humans and rats, rats just get that we are a whole lot bigger and we can open and close the cage door and we can provide food, and treats and skritches and hugs... Most rats intuitively look up to their humans as their leaders and the human becomes the alpha or parent by default. No force is required.

On relatively rare occasions... something goes wrong with the process. Most of the time it's due to neglect, other times it's because humans act very submissively and sometimes it's because a rat has reached puberty and it's making a power grab for status. The net result is that the 1 lb rat actually attacks the 150 lb human and often starts biting to get it's way. 

Neither a rat, nor a dog, nor even a toddler can run a human household and always get their way, this is a challenge faced by even the best parents.

When you are facing a rat that's aggressively attacking and biting you you have a special situation. And this is addressed by a particular variant of immersion generally called extreme immersion. This isn't for rats that are running away and biting in self defense... this is for rats that are aggressive. Before you can build a bond based on love and trust you have to get the animal to stop attacking you... so first we work on respect. Not fear, but respect. You don't chase a rat around to terrify it, but you make it clear that you are not a chew toy either. A rat doesn't need to be afraid of you to understand that you aren't going to let it push you around. And that attacking you isn't going to get them what they want.

Rats get the message pretty quickly. When a young buck goes head to head with an established alpha rat, usually it ends with the young buck being groomed by the old alpha rat and rewarded for submitting. Between the challenge and the resolution things might get a bit heated. We often see this during introductions. So in the special case of an aggressive rat, first you armor up, then you get together with your attacker and you repulse his attacks until he understands that you are in charge. In his mind you are the alpha and he is subordinate to you. Not surprisingly many rats that start out attacking their human roll over onto their backs and ask to have their belly rubbed. And a smart human understands this is the time to take off the gloves and reward their rat. And this is where extreme immersion ends and normal immersion begins. Your alpha role goes from defending you status and gaining respect through aggressive communication to communicating through gentle persuasion and lots of rewards and treats and skritches. You go from enforcing basic discipline to being the good parent that you really want to be. 

Most people with aggressive rats have taken a submissive or absentee role and need encouragement to engage their biting rat. I don't think I've had a single case where I've had to tell someone to back down and be less assertive. Mostly I've had to coach people to step up and take charge of the situation and stand up to their 1 lb bully. So I often have to encourage someone to "be the alpha" during the extreme phase of immersion. It's very hard for some people to take a leadership role in their relationships.

But once extreme immersion is over the alpha role is always parental. There's no need to bully your rat and it's not used in training techniques like some dog trainers suggest. A good human alpha leads his pack, and he doesn't abuse or intimidate his pack members. 

To be entirely honest, I have a pretty solid background in operand conditioning and behavior modification from my undergraduate studies at Rutgers University back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I really assumed that those skills would come in handy training rats. And then I realized that I was way off base. Rats are far more intelligent than we ever gave them credit for and they are social creatures and are capable of communicating and understanding at their level. And most surprisingly they could form actual emotional bond with humans. I'll even go along with recent studies that say they are metacognative. But to be entirely honest I was complacently and smugly sitting on my lazy butt when a brilliant rat decided to challenge everything I thought I knew. I started from scratch, finding ways to understand my new little friend and communicating with her, I know I sound like the crazy cat lady down the street, but I tested everything empirically and found that Fuzzy Rat reliably did the same thing to communicate the same message and she even rewarded me when I did what she wanted. So I'm afraid I can't help you much with studies done on immersion theory or technique, but there are plenty of threads you can read here so you can see for yourself just how well it works. Or you can try it for yourself. 

If you sit down with your own new rat and begin to engage her and she responds and you are working one on one getting to know each other, I'm pretty sure you won't be flooding your rat or hurting her... with any luck you will be having the time of your lives getting to know each other. Immersion is supposed to be engaging and playful, I've never heard anyone use those terms with regard to flooding... but then I'm no expert on flooding.


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## PawsandClaws

Flooding is a therapy technique used on both animals and people to 'cure' them of anxieties and fears. The idea is that if you expose the animal/human often and for long enough to the stimuli it finds frightening, the body will not be able to keep in a state of stressed alarm forever. In some cases this works, but in a large amount of other cases it only serves to force the human/animal to develop a different coping mechanism. It can make the animal very volatile and unpredictable since you have not effectively managed or cured its fear, simply suppressed it. You can see how this applies to the socialization methods you preach. Just because something works, does not mean we cannot deem it to be unethical as our understanding of the subject grows.

More than anything though, I just want to address your comment about dogs. Dogs do not take charge and wait for an opening to become leader. The alpha dominance theory has been debunked time and time again by numerous credible scientists and behaviorists. Dogs are intelligent enough to understand that we are not just a larger dog and I am certain this holds true for rats also. Just because bullying a dog into learned helplessness works, it does not mean that it is an effective form of training. Why would you intimidate your animals into doing what you want when setting them up for success and rewarding the desired behavior you want nets equally successful results? Many people who opt into Cesar Milan's method of training swear they have fantastic relationships with their animals. Whilst I agree that aggressive rats should be encouraged to come out of their comfort zones in order to happily co-exist, I do not think it is necessary to intimidate my rat into 'accepting me as an alpha' at all. I have dealt with both aggressive and territorial rats, none of which had to be forced into compromising situations that made them fearful or distressed. I set the rats up for success and rewarded good behavior - step by step. Yes, this takes longer but at least I did not ever have to feel like I had compromised our relationship (at any stage of the process) or forced the rat into a certain state because there were no other options. 

It is rather unfortunate that these alpha theories remain so popular. I have always thought of immersion as 'exposing your rat to you and the strange environment (but in a positive way) - at which point the animal can see a lack of danger and grows less weary on its own terms'. It makes me really uncomfortable to refer newcomers to this guide when so much of it is fueled on the basis that rats believe their social hierarchy applies to humans where there is a general lack of evidence to suggest or support this in other animals let alone rats. Whilst immersion is 'supposed to be engaging and playful', many of your methods suggest intimidation tactics in enough of a dose as to make the animal submit. This makes me feel very wearisome as your only proof is 'that it just works' despite numerous credible sources stating that application of the alpha theory on animals just teaches learned helplessness. Yes, it works but so do a lot of other things. I am by no means suggesting you abuse or torture your animals into submission. So when you say that they are loved, I believe you and am not implying otherwise. I just want you to at least consider the idea that holding an animal down on its back (for example) is something that will instill fear and helplessness. When you put an animal in the position it finds most vulnerable and compromise its ability to flee or hide from you - this IS intimidating and it IS flooding. If a rat does not need to be afraid of you for this to work, you would never need to impose such methods on it in the first place. 

When you spoil your animal or your child and they act out, they are not trying to dominate you and rule the roost as alpha, they are being bratty little individuals who were never taught structure. Positive reinforcement does not mean that there is a lack of control or structure in your relationship with another living thing. Your rats do not need to be rolled over until they give up and become rag dolls against their will, it is just not necessary. For whoever is reading this, just know there are other options of dealing with aggressive or fearful animals and if any step of the process makes you doubtful or uncomfortable, I encourage you to back out and look for other methods. Instead of flooding, try rehabilitation and simple bonding exercises which do not make you feel like a villain and have long lasting, reliable results.


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, I can't see how your definition of flooding has anything to do with immersion. I do recall that there were behavioral modification approached to managing phobias that involved prolonged and repeated exposure. And although at the time they were being haled as breakthroughs, I was more than a little suspect of them too. I deal with a real life standing on a chair screaming rat phobic every day and years of constant exposure to rats has perhaps diminished the phobia but it's evolving into a certain resentment and the latest morph is a claim that rats are bad luck... I doubt this is progress, but it's what I would expect the long term results to most behavior modification approaches to look like. So while I can agree that "flooding" by your definition would be a dubious process at best, it's not what we are doing. We are introducing ourselves and establishing communication and understanding between ourselves and our rats... that's a whole lot different than throwing an arachnophobic person into a room full of spiders or locking my wife into a room full of rats. In the case of my wife, I can certainly see it ending in sudden divorce as a side effect of the therapy.

I would much prefer if you address your comments to immersion rather than redefining it for your convenience. 

Next, I addressed my take on alpha as it relates to dogs as a group leader. I've watched groups or packs of dogs foraging around and I've seen that they tend to follow a lead dog. I've even seen it at dog parks where groups of dogs regularly come together. I don't recall ever suggesting that anyone should be training their dog through fear and intimidation. Nor would I ever suggest that a dog learn helplessness. The alpha role for a human, a dog or a rat is basically a leadership or parental role, not a dictatorial malevolence. When a rat rolls over and submits to an alpha rat, it's not becoming helpless, quite to the contrary it's joining or maintaining it's position in the society or family. And when a dog takes a submissive posture to another dog, it's also not becoming helpless, nor does the dog that it submits to normally abuse or mistreat it's new friend. Alpha status is just part of the social order among social animals and that includes humans. A good president leads his population, he doesn't intimidate them or rule through fear. Sure he's accorded alpha status and respect, but a good president is more of a parent or teacher and definitely a protector for his people and not a Draconian despot. I don't think dogs follow their pack leaders out of fear, rats don't live in dread of their alphas and most humans don't live in fear of their presidents or leaders. It's a matter of respect, which I believe goes both ways in a good relationship.

I have seen a situation where a very large dog and a very submissive human had an upside down relationship. It was rather comical that the dog would bite his owner for entering the apartment in the wrong way or that it would tree his dates on the kitchen counter and he had to be home by a certain time to feed his dog or it would tear his apartment apart. And the dog wouldn't walk on a leash and could only be let out to go to the bathroom on it's own... As the human didn't take charge the dog most certainly did. I'm not suggesting the dog was all bad at it either... The dog could be very friendly and affectionate when his owner came home on time and fed him and entered the apartment from the correct door and complied with all of the things the dog wanted. And yes, it could even be persuaded to let the fellow's dates down off the kitchen counter. This is the most extreme example of leadership being turned upside down I've seen in dogs. I'm thinking it wouldn't happen in most households. My other friend was a attack dog trainer for the US military in Korea and he actually took dogs on missions. It was actually his diagnosis that the situation my first friend was facing was a reversal of alpha or leadership roles, a diagnosis with which I concur... Still this isn't a dog training philosophy or a practice. Its just a matter of establishing social status the way both a dog and a human can understand it... nothing more. 

I like to train dogs and rats by both encouraging and rewarding them and to make activities as fun as possible by challenging their natural curiosity and intelligence. I do believe my animals respect me, and I think for the most part they follow my lead, but I can assure you they don't fear me... if my rats have something better to do, they will ignore me and do their thing first before getting around to what I want them to do... Just because I'm the alpha, doesn't mean I have any magical control over them... rats will be rats although for the most part, if they aren't eating or sleeping they come when called if I keep calling long enough.

Now I can't possibly believe that a rat or a dog can comprehend what it is to be a human. A termite sees the world as a termite might see the world and a rat sees the world as a rat does. As a human we expect other humans to think like we do and act pretty much like we do and I'm assuming that a rat would expect other rats to think and act very much like he does. And as humans can't think like rats and rats can't think like humans I believe that humans tend to see similarities to themselves in other animals and quite frankly I can't see why rats wouldn't do the same. I've seen rats submit to other rats by rolling over and getting their belly skritched and I've seen rats roll over for their humans the exact same way. In fact, I can't see why we shouldn't assume that a rat view a human to be like itself. Just as we see rats to be very much like us. Therefore I have no difficulty at all suggesting that rats expect us to act a certain way and can understand us when we do. Most of my rats have learned to point to where they want to go. So they know they can influence out behavior through their actions too. This is communication. 

Immersion fosters communication, understanding and bonding and I'm glad we agree that it works....

Towards the special case of extreme immersion. The exception by which some folks want to challenge the rule... Pretty much during extreme immersion we do the exact opposite of what we normally do. But we don't take it to the point of teaching helplessness. Rather we simply assert ourselves in a fashion a rat can understand. An alpha rat stands his ground and backs down a challenger, when the challenger shows respect and submits and rolls over the alpha graciously grooms his fellow pack member and subordinate. Alpha rats aren't teaching their subordinates fear or learned helplessness, they are simply defending their status and maintaining respect. And this is as far as an extreme immersion should ever go. And like any good alpha rat after the status issue is resolved we return to promoting positive experiences and rewarding mutual experiences. 

Fuzzy Rat was a very clever rat, when we brought Amelia home... a rat that Fuzzy Rat actually hand picked... Fuzzy Rat hung out on the stairs while we were doing immersion with Amelia on the hallway floor. My 5 year daughter was laying on the floor and her and Amelia were chasing each other around and occasionally Amelia would jump up on me and I'd skritch her before she returned to playing on top of my daughter... Finally Fuzzy Rat came down the stairs and boxed with Amelia for just a few minutes and the she turned broadside and Amelia tapped her with one paw and Fuzzy Rat rolled over onto her back... I was shocked that our brilliant and wonderful rat would just roll over like that. And I watched as Amelia groomed Fuzzy Rat's belly... Then Fuzzy Rat flipped over and began to lead Amelia around. And they played like old friends. Fuzzy Rat was clearly the leader, but she wasn't about to fight a rat twice her size and half her age. 

Oddly this submissive rolling over behavior continued throughout the course of their relationship... Amelia would get a treat or have food and Fuzzy Rat would steal it, when Amelia caught up to Fuzzy Rat, Fuzzy Rat would roll over onto her back and Amelia would groom her... as soon as Amelia was finished Fuzzy Rat would continue to run off with the food she stole and Amelia would sit there looking all confused. It was hysterical to watch. By manipulating rat communication Fuzzy Rat outsmarted Amelia at every turn and she did it over and over again... There was nothing helpless about Fuzzy Rat, not was she ever not in charge of any relationship with another rat. She was a very clever and crafty alpha and maintained her position long after she was almost completely disabled. Being a good alpha doesn't require any force at all it doesn't require fear or intimidation, Fuzzy Rat did it through strategic submission. Its just a social status and not a training method when it comes to immersion...

Do rats understand respect? Can rats understand and communicate with humans? Are rats capable of rational decision making? Can rats establish a social order in a mixed rat and human family? Can rats love? YES, I do believe they can. And you either agree or immersion doesn't make much sense. 

If your working with an operand conditioning model where rats simply respond to positive and negative stimulus, you don't have to worry what rats understand or feel. The are attracted by positive reinforcement and repulsed by negative stimulation. That's pretty much it. There's no need to try and communicate with or understand your rats and you don't have to worry about respect and I'm guessing you don't really believe your rats love you. But most of all you don't believe in immersion, which is based on everything you don't believe. 

If you don't believe in the basic tenants of immersion it all boils down to alpha training and flooding all kids of mixed positive and negative reinforcements that the rat doesn't understand. And good grief we are beating our rats into learned helplessness... 

I don't know how to reassure you that that's not what we are doing... People that do immersion love their rats and it's a whole lot more than "exposing your rat to you and the strange environment (but in a positive way)" it's communicating in a way a rat can understand. 

I understand your concern... I was a whole lot like you once.... I didn't believe that animals could understand humans and I certainly didn't imagine mixed species families and I didn't realize that rats could work out ways to communicate with us. And immersion was the farthest thing from my mind. Heck, a few years ago, I might have written the same post you did. Then something actually changed, I met a rat that climbed trees, and jumped into the lake after my daughter and swam around with the children, who walked at heel and waited at the front door to be taken outside. A rat that chased kids around the playground and rejoiced in getting them to crash into each other. A rat that sat quietly and patiently in an abused little girls arms as she cried. And most of all a rat that found ways to reach out to me and become understood. I really thought I had lost my mind... and perhaps while you are reading this you may be thinking I have.... But I can assure you I tested my new reality and then I rethought all of the things I thought I understood about rats and fit the studies and all of my education into my new model based on rats being intelligent and emotional beings.. and it worked... And as we both agree immersion works too... And so far no one has reported any of the kinky side effects associated with operand conditioning and behavior modification, because they simply don't exist. My rats are respectful in that they don't bite or challenge me, but they are independent and competent and brilliant and they are happy, as far as I can judge a rat's level of happiness and with the exception of my wife we live in a mixed rat and human family... 

Could immersion become flooding or something even worse, the answer is yes and no. If the human enters the immersion session with the intention of building a relationship and with love in their heart the answer is a resounding NO! Even extreme immersion always works towards a rewarding mutually beneficial resolution. People that respect and love their animals are not going to torture them. And when defined as a loving parent being an alpha is not a bad thing. Nor is submitting into the love and comfort of a warm family. Then yes... if you were not trying to communicate with and bond with an animal you love and you locked them up on a small room and mercilessly beat them up and chased them around long enough I'm sure you could do irrevocable harm. And perhaps that would be flooding, but it certainly wouldn't be extreme immersion... Like I said, I'm no expert on flooding, but we've helped lots of folks build great relationships with their rats and we've fixed a few that would have otherwise been PTS.

You can buy into normal immersion without extreme immersion... most rat owners need never do an extreme immersion and even I agree it's only a last resort for a certain type of rat. And for the most part, as the human you will be the alpha by default, so you may never have to consciously assert yourself as the alpha, just be a good rat parent. It's extremely unfair to compare immersion to flooding or rat owners that do immersion to people that beat their dogs. Or to cherry pick certain things that we do out of love and take them to the extreme until they become malevolent. 

I'm old enough to know that people beat their dogs long before anyone ever suggested the idea of pack order or the human being the alpha... Some people don't seem to need any reason at all to beat their dogs but might be happy to jump on any one that comes along. 

I spent all day yesterday soldering wires in my wife's office, she mistreated Max the other day and the next day I woke up to find all of the wires under her desk slashed. Of course I'm not going to further mistreat Max. I'm going to try and find a way to try and teach Max to stop chewing wires and to reassure her that she is loved and respected. That's not to say if I catch her with her jaws wrapped around a wire, I'm going to give her a snickers bar. I'm not that understanding an of alpha either. But I'm not going to punish her or hurt her or inflict suffering on her that she can't understand and will most likely cause her to react more adversely to. This isn't an alpha dominance struggle.. just a matter of miscommunication that needs to be corrected.

Immersion done well, and overwhelmingly it is, creates bonds of communication, love and respect that last a lifetime, it produces competent and independent rats. No one has reported any kind of strange side effects and there certainly haven't been any learned helpless zombie rats reported anywhere... Oddly you close by arguing that just because something works well you shouldn't do it. And that somehow some studies done on something completely different should take preference over personal experience. Really? Are you entirely certain that's the way you want to conclude your argument. Are you completely certain you couldn't sit down and introduce yourself to a new rat without causing it irreparable harm?

If you are arguing that people should use appropriate restraint and treat their rats with love and respect... we really are on the same page. If you're arguing that the concept of pack order and human alpha status can be subverted into something abusive, again we agree. If your suggesting that immersion is flooding, we don't agree. And if you don't see rats as intelligent emotional animals capable of understanding and communicating with their humans.... we can't agree.

Browse the old threads and you will find humans broken to tears by their rats attacking them... See how reluctantly humans exert themselves when faced with an aggressive rat... Follow the progress of an online immersion and watch how the interaction changes and improves for both the rat and the human once they establish basic communication and understanding. And then ask someone who has done immersion if their rats are learned helpless zombies... or if they are exhibiting anti-social side effects... 

I'd like to conclude that I have gone to other web sites and I've followed threads on PRO positive reinforcement only, which is a step child of behavior modification as I see it. From what I gather it focuses only on rewarding desirable behavior and tends to omit the equally if not more effective negative reinforcement aspect of the model in order to avoid the negative side effects... To be honest, even though I don't believe you can make anyone love you by giving them gifts or treats, I gave it a chance and in almost every case before the thread hit the second page the PRO advocates were chanting neuter, neuter, neuter... As a matter of fact I followed one thread where the aggressive rat was neutered, then the submissive rat became aggressive and was also neutered and then when both rats remained aggressive the owner started over with a fresh pair of rats. I'm not sure how positive reinforcement is going to turn around an aggressive rat that's flying high on hormones and chasing you around the house as you trail blood behind you or how you are going to reward a rat into not tearing up his roommates. And when you say it can be done but it just takes longer, do you mean it will work before or after the aggressive rat rips your babies second eye out? (OK, that's over the top, but so is calling folks who do immersion sadists and comparing us with people who abuse dogs.) I don't know if PRO really can fix a seriously troubled rat. Or if a person with an average skill level and patience can accomplish it, so far I haven't seen it done. But I've never seen a black swan either and I do believe they exist. That's still not to say I expect to see one flapping by any time soon, often or even ever... Offer your biting rat a Twinky and it must might let go of your finger or it just might learn to bite your finger when it wants a Twinky. I'm thinking both are equally possible, but for sure I'm not trying that experiment.

Most people will never face an extreme immersion situation, but some people need a fast and effective way to fix aggressive biting rats. And neutering isn't always an option or even the best option. I don't like extreme immersion any more than you do. No one in their right mind ever wakes up and decides that they want to lock themselves into a small space with an aggressively biting rat. But people that really love their rats do it and it works and as ugly as it looks it still isn't close to what some twisted people do to their dogs and it still isn't flooding. And there are no permanent side effects and the rats don't become helpless zombies... I just can't find the words to better express what really happens. You either believe that rats can understand and communicate with humans or you don't and you either believe we're sadists or you don't. 

So I will conclude my remarks by saying that when personal experience and hundreds if not thousands of actual sessions prove that a method is successful and studies on related but dissimilar topics or animals suggest something else... go with personal experience and a track record of success and do what works best, do what works fastest and do what produces the best results...


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## Rat Daddy

I might add as a footnote, today's discussion was about web sites that discourage discussions on immersion. Someone has proposed their competing method here, and has made their case as compelling as they can... even if I don't like their tactics, they were free to post their opinions here and no one asked them for a single footnote or citation... and no one is going to delete their comments. It would be only fair if immersion were given and equal chance elsewhere too. 

I personally don't believe in PRO, it's just the rat runners re-branding the same old Clockwork Orange. Sure they don't zap rats any more to induce fear of a light bulb, but these are the same folks that originally brought you flooding... So half their philosophy has gone down in flames and their clinging to the shreds of what's left.. they have disavowed all of the studies that proved that negative reinforcement worked and are clinging to the ones that support positive reinforcement.... 

Pro was around long before immersion and it worked so reliably and long lastingly that they're running scared and blocking our discussions on their web sites... and predicting a sudden rat apocalypse for folks that do immersion to try and scare people away by name calling and banning open discussions... They admit that immersion works... but they are arguing that faster and better isn't better... They argue against their own flooding technique and against folks that abuse dogs because they don't have a case against immersion. But they can do it here!

But just to be clear, despite my opinion, PRO advocates have every right to post here... And every reader has the right to decide for themselves which way to go. If you ever feel like you're harming your rat, do stop, your doing immersion wrong... and if you can't find a flavor of immersion that works for you, by all means try something else... There are also other options that don't involve drinking the clockwork orange juice... And you can find them here, where free speech and competing ideas aren't banned.


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## sarah424

I don't really know much about immersion or how to do it properly, I read the thread and tried it with my girls who are my first rats ever, and mostly all we've done every day is I just sit and try to pet and hold them while they rocket around all over the place lol. They were stressed the first day or two, I think, but I just try to be very gentle and let them run around and touch them when they come to me. I don't know if that's flooding or cruel to them but I never hurt or scared them without a reason (mostly just picking them up, they are not big fans of that, or a bop on the head with a finger when they nibble on me too hard) and they seem to trust me and come to me now when they are startled... My boyfriend walked in on our free time today, he's never done that before and even though the girls know him they have never really spent much time with him other than running on his shoulders and the occasional treat when he walks by. Delilah and Dahlia scrambled up onto my shoulders and buried themselves in my hair and Doralita, my newest and shyest girl, actually ran into my hands and peeked out over my fingers lol! She sat there for almost a full minute, considering that I can't hold or pet any of them for more than 5-10 seconds that was huge! So I don't know about all the alpha or dominance stuff but immersion has seemingly worked out well for me and my rats seem very happy  Still working on our bond but I'm seeing more trust every day!


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## Rat Daddy

Sarah, you aren't flooding your rats, what your doing is sweet and kind and exactly what immersion is all about. And you are seeing the kind of results you are supposed to get. Basically you are doing a great job and you are socializing great rats!

But there's a certain group of people that are clinging on to the scraps of a half debunked theory. Many of them can't see rats as intelligent or emotional beings and they don't believe we can communicate with or understand our rats or in mixed rat and human families. I know them because I was once one of them... So now they are looking for any way to block immersion from retiring their worn out methodology to the history books... and they are getting pretty animated about it. Unfortunately innocent people like you are getting caught in the crossfire and if you went to any one of their web sites you wouldn't have heard about immersion or be doing immersion now and you wouldn't be building the same forever bond with your rats you are now. 

Don't let anyone call you a name or label you as something you are not... you love your rats and your rats are learning to love you back... Your their mom and their alpha and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as you are a loving parent. 

We don't go to their web sites to attack them. But when they come here to attack us we're going to defend ourselves. For my part in the drama, I sincerely apologize to you and anyone caught in the middle.


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## PawsandClaws

Right guys! You can all have other opinions and they won't be deleted but there will be plenty of personal attacks on your view points worded in a passive aggressive way. That's fine. I should have known that debating an issue with someone who's only evidence is their own experience and a total disregard for any legitimate research would never have gone down well anyway. I still encourage people to part take in their own independant research and make their minds up by themselves. If it works for you and you are satisfied with the road that took you there, then I am happy for you, truly - I say that without any sarcasm. I would never delete an opinion different from my own on any public forum as I think we should all be critical thinkers. To say that I do not think animals are capable of complex communication (where on earth did you get that from?) or that I am somehow less enlightened then you are because I refuse to believe the notion that rats see us as a threat to their alpha position is strange. At the end of the day it does not matter what my argument is since you disregard any opposition and ridicule those who propose it. I am going to bow out of this ridiculously biased discussion while I have the opportunity.


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## sarah424

Thank you Rat Daddy! That means a lot to me, these girls aren't my first pets but they are my first rats so I want to do everything right but feel like I don't know anything lol... But I am so glad I chose this forum (it was the first rat forum I found and I never left lol!) and read about immersion, who knows where I'd be with my girls without it! I really don't like forums or groups that don't let people at least share their point of view even if it's not popular. I have always believed that there is no technique that works for every animal, all the time and you should always be open to something new  My grandpa asked me every time I saw or spoke to him what I learned today, he always told me how important it was to learn something new every day


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## Rat Daddy

PawsandClaws

Most of the behavior mod crowd don't recognize a rats ability to rationally think or communicate... I'm surprised and just a little bit encouraged that you do... you are way more enlightened than many of the people I've debated with in the past. 

Watch how an alpha aggressive rat treats other rats and see how he treats you, then make up your own mind as to whether he sees you very differently than other rats... Since the first immersions there have been folks coming here to attack us and call us names and compare us to dog abusers... perhaps that wasn't you intention, but it sure sounds like an attack... and as we are banned on PRO web sites the least we can do is defend ourselves here.

You can't really expect gentle folks that love their rats and do everything they can to build a better relationship not to be insulted when compared to people that beat their dogs.

All immersion proponents have ever asked for is to have the same free speech as everyone else has... to allow people to choose for themselves, without being deleted or flames or called names or compared to monsters... I don't think that's a whole lot to ask for.

Propose your methods and don't attack ours and we won't attack yours. If you wouldn't delete our comments on a public forum and you support critical thinking, then we're fine and I apologize for casting you into the same lot as the folks that do.


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## Rat Daddy

Sarah,

Your right, and you may have put it better than I have all day....

Thank you.


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## CCoyle

Rat Daddy,

Thank you very much for your reply! I think I understand better where you are coming from.  I have a lot to think about. My new rats are babies so hopefully they will be forgiving of any mistakes I make.


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## Rat Daddy

CCoyle,

Your not likely to make any mistakes that your rats won't gladly forgive. You won't badger or abuse your rats or dominate them because you are going to fall in love with them and they with you. You are basically going to play with them and get to know them and learn to understand them and they will get to know and learn to understand you... it's actually all very organic and very rewarding and hopefully even fun.

If things do get more complicated we are here to help.


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## Nijidoragon

Hi, so I read some of this guide but its really long and confusing and I'm still not %100 sure what immersion is. Is it just playing with your rat in a rat-proof room until they fall asleep on you? I don't know if I can read all 38 pages , and I want to do immersion as soon as possible. How long will it take ? My rats aren't aggressive . they take treats from me but run away when I try to pick them up. One of them sometimes comes onto my hand when I make a noise she associates with treats. I just want to know in simpler terms, what immersion is. I will try to read this whole story thing when I have time . the first page was interesting but it didn't really teach me how to do immersion.


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## Rat Daddy

Immersion is a way to introduce yourself to your rats and to learn to understand them and have them understand you....

Obviously, I'm not going to rewrite everything in just a couple of paragraphs.

Make yourself comfy with your rats and engage them, get their attention and try to get them to play with you or climb on you, once they react to you try to figure out what they are saying.... if they run, they might be afraid... if they approach you they might be interested... if they popcorn around they might want to play. Basically you try to respond appropriately... If they are afraid you try and reassure them, if they want to play you play. But keep trying to engage or reach out to them... naturally don't terrorize them, but try to get to know them and try to get them to know you.

If they roll over make sure to skritch their bellies, if they nap on you snuggle with them, if they are preening they are thinking so leave them be until they finish. But otherwise you play it by ear... You can bring water and treats with you so neither you nor the rats suffer of dehydration or starvation. Remember, you are trying to understand them and what they are telling you and you are trying to communicate with them in a way a very small animal can understand you...

If you have never worked with rats before think how a puppy or a small child might act and understand you.

That's a very shorthand version... 

Your session should last a few hours, some go longer, some shorter... but you want to make progress with each session... I mean something got better between you and them... this way you pick up where you left off next time and you don't re-run the same session over and over.

Do try and make it through the first few pages if you can, most of the basic stuff is there.


Remember, it's all about making friends and having fun.

Best luck


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## Nijidoragon

Rat Daddy said:


> Immersion is a way to introduce yourself to your rats and to learn to understand them and have them understand you....
> 
> Obviously, I'm not going to rewrite everything in just a couple of paragraphs.
> 
> Make yourself comfy with your rats and engage them, get their attention and try to get them to play with you or climb on you, once they react to you try to figure out what they are saying.... if they run, they might be afraid... if they approach you they might be interested... if they popcorn around they might want to play. Basically you try to respond appropriately... If they are afraid you try and reassure them, if they want to play you play. But keep trying to engage or reach out to them... naturally don't terrorize them, but try to get to know them and try to get them to know you.
> 
> If they roll over make sure to skritch their bellies, if they nap on you snuggle with them, if they are preening they are thinking so leave them be until they finish. But otherwise you play it by ear... You can bring water and treats with you so neither you nor the rats suffer of dehydration or starvation. Remember, you are trying to understand them and what they are telling you and you are trying to communicate with them in a way a very small animal can understand you...
> 
> If you have never worked with rats before think how a puppy or a small child might act and understand you.
> 
> That's a very shorthand version...
> 
> Your session should last a few hours, some go longer, some shorter... but you want to make progress with each session... I mean something got better between you and them... this way you pick up where you left off next time and you don't re-run the same session over and over.
> 
> Do try and make it through the first few pages if you can, most of the basic stuff is there.
> 
> 
> Remember, it's all about making friends and having fun.
> 
> Best luck


Okay ! Thanks so much


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## Trenix

Your whole idea of Immersion Training does work but over the years I realized that it may be a little too in-depth and asks an awful lot from rat owners, more than is really needed. I mean doing a session for hours is stressful for the owner as well as the rat. When I first read this guide, I was a little hesitant. Also let’s be honest, I didn’t do it for hours and I’m sure many owners didn’t either. It’s not that I’m lazy or irresponsible, it’s just not believable that a session about domination would last for hours in the wild for these animals.

I found a rat outside, she was probably an escaped feeder and she was a biter. She would strike a lot and would make people bleed. Now, she wouldn’t even dare bite me even if I took food right from her mouth. A simple shout will also make her stop misbehaving with my other rats. What I did was much simpler and it was just as effective. Basically all I did was punish her when she did wrong, it was that easy.

The punishments were as follow…

1) Push Around & Shout – When the rat attempts to strike you, push it around and shout “No” or my favorite, “Hey”. Continue to do it until the rat begins to flee from you, this should not take more than 5 minutes. If it does, you’re most likely not allowing the animal to escape, so give it enough room so it’s capable of walking away when it’s given up. Obviously if you are surrounding the animal, it will continue to fight for its life and that’s just wrong to continue to punish an animal for doing so.

Once the animal begins fleeing, then you should leave it alone. Allowing your rat to flee doesn’t mean you lost the fight like the immersion training says you did. I don’t care where you’re from or what animal we’re talking about, fleeing always shows submission, which is exactly what you want to see. After your rat stops biting you, stop doing this punishment.

2) Pinning Down – I don’t recommend this at all since rats can easily be mishandled and otherwise hurt because they’re small animals. I, myself, hurt one of my rat’s toes somehow from pinning. It was nothing serious, but it shows that even someone with years of experience with rats can easily mishandle them.

This is to be done with extreme caution and should never be done to punish a rat which still bites, but it’s good for a rat that’s misbehaving with others. I did this, but I still do NOT recommend others to do it; at all. This skill is not something that should be practiced, because it isn’t even necessary. Just don’t do it, some rats may even harm themselves to get out of it.

3) Grab & Shout – Some rats may not bite when grabbed, like mine for example, but I’m not sure if it’s different with others. So grabbing a rat and shouting at it, is a great way to make the rat stop what its doing and be dominated instantly. This will make them quickly realize that they’re not a match for you, but just obviously don’t shout directly in their ear. They’ll calm down as soon as you put them back in their cage and this method works every time for me.

4) Shout – There will come a time where your rat will listen to you by simply shouting at them. When my rats start fighting I simply yell, “hey” and the fighting completely stops. My fiancé and I even laugh about how we raised our rats better than some people raise their own children.
And that’s all with my simple guide. There is no need to stress your animal, just dominate it when it’s necessary. It will take time, none of this will happen instantly, but dominating your animal is pretty much all you need to do. Rats are really not that overly complicate as this guide makes it seem they are. You just do Push & Shout, Grab & Shout, until you’re down to simply shouting and very rarely grabbing and shouting.

I completely disagree with cornering your animal, doing hour long immersion sessions, and not allowing it to flee. Honestly I find it kind of cruel and would hope the OP would consider changing that aspect of the guide. Clearly it’s wrong for that fact that I didn’t do it and my rat no longer bites me, at all. If my rat truly felt like she won after fleeing, she should then technically be still biting me.


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## Kitterpuss

It's not the fleeing that's the issue, it's the fact that most people place their rats back inside the cage after they get bitten, thus the rat learns that biting is a shortcut to being back in their cage. 

There are many methods that work in bonding with your rats, just because your way worked doesn't mean that the others are wrong. To be honest your way sounds fairly aggressive, so I'm surprised that you take issue with the 'cruel' immersion techniques. Look at the language you have used - 'dominate', 'shout' and 'grab', 'punish'.


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## Rat Daddy

Preamble: The following is a discussion on extreme immersion only. Normal immersion is friendly and playful and doesn't involve any force, punishment, negative reinforcement, aggression, status issues or alpha conflict. The following discussion pertains to biting rats that are a danger to their humans and cagemates. Extreme immersion is a special case situation and is used only for fixing aggressively biting rats. It's also not to be used for rats that are extremely fearful and bite when cornered.

Trenix,

I actually recognize what you did and have no doubt that it was very effective. It really is good old fashioned behavior modification, basically you punish a bad behavior until it stops. And studies show negative reinforcement is incredibly effective (when it works). 

It also tends to have side effects if done wrong. You can fix one behavior and create another that can be worse. But that's not always the case. Negative reinforcement behavioral modification was actually touted to be very successful in many cases and you really had to do a bunch of experiments to see just how badly it can go wrong, when it does go wrong. So if you take this kind of approach you might wind up with ten or even one hundred wins for every one that goes sideways depending on your skill level at applying the technique. 

Mostly where immersion differs from what you did is that immersion is a bonding and socialization technique not just a behavior modification approach. You are trying to do more than just fix the biting. 

I suppose the difference would be teaching a teenager to drive responsibly. You could give the kid speeding tickets and hopefully the young person learns that speeding and reckless driving results in tickets, fines, increased insurance rates and license suspensions. This usually works to stop speeding and reckless driving. But some young people learn to look out for cops or find routes that are not often patrolled or buy radar detectors which may not have made things any worse, but then some people learn to run when chased by police to avoid the ticket. And this leads to high speed police chases and even mass fatalities. 

In this model of negative reinforcement operand conditioning the vast majority of folks pay their ticket and drive more carefully, it's used by law enforcement all over the world, but you have those cases that go sideways badly. To be honest, I was one of those kids with a very fast car and I actually won a couple of police chases. And I learned if the police couldn't get close enough to read my license plates, I wouldn't get a ticket. And the best way not to get a speeding ticket was to drive really fast and completely recklessly. That and to know your side streets and never go down a dead end with a police car behind you.

Then one day while I was stopped to make a left hand turn, the lower control arm of my car broke and the front wheel snapped off at the lower ball joint and the car fell softly onto the pavement caught by the spring and lower control arm, that dug itself into the pavement. Just 10 minutes before I had been driving at over 80 MPH. I got incredibly lucky. At 80 miles per hour I and my 5 passengers would have all been killed as well as anyone else I hit. This was learning through understanding, not reinforcement. And I haven't had another speeding ticket in over 30 years. It's not that I've never exceeded the speed limit since, but now I need a pretty good reason to put my life and the lives of my passengers at risk.

Likewise immersion is a communication technique, you don't just want the rat to be afraid of biting you, you want to develop a relationship with you and to understand you.

Let me give you another example of how negative reinforcement might go wrong... So lets say your wife doesn't have dinner waiting for you when you get home, so you beat her until she cooks dinner. If you are bigger and stronger than she is, it's going to work more times than not, as long as you apply sufficient punishment. And fear of the predictable beating should mean dinner will be on time going forward... How could this possibly go wrong? Well when the cops drag you out of the house in handcuffs, for domestic violence you might experience just how wrong things might go. You see behavior modification doesn't take into account things like self worth, social status, personal dignity or resentment. Where some wives might learn to start dinner earlier, other's are going to call the cops. And even if your wife doesn't call the cops, sooner or later you are going to sleep and leave her alone in a house full of sharp objects and you might wish she called the cops. 

Now, if cooking is one of your wife's responsibilities you might otherwise communicate with her so that she understands how important dinner is to you when you come home so you can go to your second job or help the kids with their homework and get to bed on time so you can do your job well. Even if this does turn into an unpleasant heated argument, this is communication not operand conditioning. But even if you argue over dinnertime which isn't pleasant, you resolve your issue by building understanding.

If you simply want to modify a behavior quickly, behavior modification works and negative reinforcement works faster then positive reinforcement in most cases, but if you are trying to establish communication and correct social order it takes longer. Both extreme immersion and negative reinforcement can be unpleasant for the rat and the human, but in one case you just want to stop biting behavior and in the other case you are building a life long bond and a social structure.

That's also why an immersion session is longer than a behavioral modification session, in extreme immersion you aggressive defend yourself, where as in behavioral modification you actually punish the rat. Behaviorists actually prefer the terms negative reinforcement or aversion training. Aversion training or negative reinforcement is pretty short and to the point... if the rat bites then it gets zapped. The rat stops biting to stop getting zapped. In immersion you are exercising self assertion rather than punishing. The focus is in the relationship as well as the behavior. You want your rat to *understand* that you are the parent or alpha and not just that biting equals getting zapped. Once the rat stops attacking you in immersion you don't end the session because that's were the session moves on to the bonding phase. You might argue that it takes longer because immersion usually uses less force and is therefore less effective, but it takes longer because there are more breaks where you aren't chasing your rat and where the rat can back off and understand what's happening. The the session continues after the biting has stopped to build healthy communication and social ties.

I'm also not a big advocate of pinning, I prefer pushing back, and bopping or swatting (with love in my heart) to pinning, but lots of people have had success with pinning as they have seen rats do it to each other. It works well for some people and they don't take it to the point of doing any actual harm. As long as it's used in the framework of establishing communication and it's done with appropriate care for the rat and not to get bitten, it can be effective. It's actually a legacy from an earlier socialization method that snuck into immersion like bonding pouches. 

Trenix, I'm actually very pleased you posted here! Your actually a behaviorist after my own heart. The kind I was "raised to be." We were taught that there's no difference which approach you use as long as you fix the behavior. And as you've demonstrated with your experience, negative reinforcement and outright punishment actually often work unlike the politically correct step children of behavior modification and operand conditioning who are flogging positive reinforcement only which usually doesn't work to fix biting rats. I suppose after you fixed the biting behavior you did some form of bonding and socialization too that went beyond basic behavior modification if you have normal healthy well behaved rats.

There is a point when an extreme immersion session and an old fashioned behavior modification session might look similar, the hands on element differs in that each trainer has different goals. A behavior modification trainer is working to eliminate a negative behavior, while the immersionist is working to establish communication and understanding, both can look and feel pretty ugly. With the right rats both methods will actually work and with some rats behavior modification might actually work faster. But with the wrong rat you behavior mod can produce a negative result and a rat that bites worse or a rat that becomes emotionally unstable and withdrawn if you are only fixing a single behavior. With extreme immersion your looking to extend the session and establish social order and your position as the good parent or alpha. Which is the status you will build your future relationship on. As the rat actually finds better ways of communication with you and understands why you are doing what you are doing, you are far less likely to wind up with negatives, or really screwed up rats.

So for folks reading along who aren't psychology majors, first came behavior modification, it used a variety of techniques including positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and stimulus association and aversion models and rats pushed bars for treats and jumped to get away from electric shocks, I suppose it started with Pavlov and his dog and was refined by B. F. Skinner and his minions into a very successful group of techniques. Then things started going really wrong, watch The Clockwork Orange for an ironical portrayal of how it was supposed to work. And long term results showed that over time the best results usually faded while the side effects often didn't go away. The next evolution was the positive reinforcement only group who were intent on salvaging the best of behavior modification and rejecting the rest, but this produced a coin with only one side. Treats work to train rats to do tricks, but no one (rat or human) falls in love with you because you give them sweet treats when they do something nice. Then somewhere a whole school of animal training developed from training social animals based on one part of animal social behavior, the concept of the alpha, which gets pretty screwed up in that alpha animals are not drill sergeants and alpha animals don't train their pack members. It's actually not a training technique at all, and it can lead to animal abuse. Now there's immersion based on a philosophy of communication and social order. In immersion an alpha is a parent or a leader not a dictator. Animals naturally follow their leader but training is based on communication not command. Animals do as asked because they want to for their own benefit and because they want to follow their leader or parent or alpha if you prefer.

Does immersion have similarities to other approaches? The answer is yes. But the defining difference is that there's a core philosophy of communication and bonding that dictates which tactic is situationally correct and achieves the singular goal of creating an integrated human and rat family. If your rat is normal and friendly and is well behaved you never assert your alpha status, if you want to get your rat to do a trick, you can reward his behavior with treats and if he attacks you, you can discourage his attacks while you correct his understanding of your status in the relationship. Mostly when you understand your rats and they understand you, you are just having fun and enjoying each other's company. They ask for food, or treats or love or attention or to be taken somewhere and you make sure they get what they want and you get love and companionship in response. And as someone once said it's a win - win situation. Because immersed rats feel understood, they become competent and independent and they love you because that's just how rats treat their pack (family) members (and possibly how humans should treat each other too)

Again thanks for posting. It's refreshing to see good old fashioned effective behavior modification without the touchy feely PRO spin that makes it so much less effective when it comes to aggressively biting rats. It's strangely pleasant explaining immersion's benefits to a real model that actually works with aggressive and biting rats more times than it doesn't.


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## Trenix

Wow didn't expect lots of text. I can see how you're very interested in Psychology as I am. I took a few courses in it and wanted to go further but practically everyone told me it was a dead end job. Sometimes I wish I was able to continue it. Anyway, yeah what I'm trying to show is how to fix the behavior, obviously it's not much to do with building a relationship, but you can't really build a relationship without fixing the bad behavior first. The idea of providing positive reinforcement to a biting rat, even gives me the impression that the person is inferior and being submissive to the rat. After she stopped biting I was able to give her treats, make her recognize her name, and even taught her tricks. Surprisingly, she's the smartest rat I have, she's an unbelievably fast learner.

Also another thing that I must mention is that you feel that a parent and an alpha are two different things, when I think they're the exact same thing. As a parent you need to be dominate one, the alpha, or else you're technically not really a parent at all. I see plenty of parents who have absolutely no control of their children and it's for that reason, they're simply not frightening to them. There is a time to be loving, but it's not during the time when your pet or your child is challenging your dominance. I'm not saying to go flat out and beat up your child or abuse your pet, which I'm seeing that some people are getting the impression that I'm saying, no that's wrong. Punishment has a limit but I'll admit it, I honestly believe that children should be spanked when not behaving appropriately and therefore it's no different for animals. Of course I don't believe in the idea of hitting an animal, especially not a rat, but shoving the rat around is a physical punishment that should be used when necessary.

So for everyone who's reading what I'm saying and getting angry, understand that I kept my troubled rat that I found outside in the hot Arizona heat where it was clearly going to die if I didn't save it. I fixed her behavior without even considering a senseless operation. She's the one that left me with numerious of bloody bite marks and I did nothing abusive to her. She now is my pet that's well trained and now has other rats to live with. So believe what you want, but I believe in dominance and that doesn't mean I'm a control freak who's going to beat up his spouce. In fact, I never liad a finger on my fiance or any other another women, not even once. I have no criminal background and I'm not an aggressive person. I myself was spanked as a child and I truly don't feel it was wrong and I really don't think I'm a bad person so that concept is just thrown out the window, it's all bullcrap that media wants you to believe. Dominance is not wrong but it does has limits, it's necessary especially in these situations. When a parent is incapable of showing dominance, this is when things go wrong such as "I don't know why my dog bit my face off" or "it's not my fault that my kid stole from a store". In fact, I believe that anything your pet or child does, you should legally be held accountable for since they're your responsibility.


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## Pandorascaisse

I have to bounce in and say that, while yes, pure negative reinforcement can work on things - there's a hidden factor to "training", no matter what method you use. And that is personality. A rat with a naturally bidding personality but who got a bad start in life may react much differently to a rat with a more defiant personality who got a great start in life. Things are not black and white and negative reinforcement, nor positive reinforcement, is any sort of be all end all.

For example, I have my parent who believes in negative reinforcement and has dished it out verbally as well as physically for as long as I can remember. I, having a more meek and bidding personality by nature, have thoroughly been screwed up by it. And I don't believe anyone who tells me that negative reinforcement can't have these types of consequences - because I have SEEN the results negative reinforcement can have. I once encountered a horse who was beaten with a 2x4 for biting someone as a young, untrained and practically untouched ever two year old. The ONLY thing that worked on her was slow, steady, positive reinforcement. Jerky movements or yelling would put your life in danger. Now, I was not her trainer exclusively, rather she was more a case I was observing, but negative reinforcement, I truly believe, would have broken her completely. 

In cases such as the horse, Charlotte, you may get the response you want. However, I believe that when you take negative reinforcement too far, you are NOT creating respect. You are creating a fear response. And, as we all know, fear responses CAN lead to more biddable personalities and willingness to do things. But, is that what you really want? The reason that trying positive reinforcement first, and then GENTLY adding negative reinforcement if the positive reinforcement doesn't work, is because you are TRYING to earn respect and set up communication with your rat - or _any_ animal, for that matter. There is nothing WRONG with negative reinforcement, that's not what I'm saying. But for most rats and domesticated animals, who have been bred for hundreds if not thousands of years in attempts to have more gentle natures, it can produce unwanted behaviors. Animals who feel fear do stupid things. Animals who don't learn that you are their parent or alpha may come to be "comfortable" around you. However, I kind of look at it like playing guitar.

Your hands start hurting after the first session. They ache, but it's not so much that you can't pull through or anything - and because of this, they become tougher. And tougher. For some rats, "becoming tougher", from what I've seen, from negative reinforcement is to simply become more squishy so they don't HAVE to deal with it anymore. Eventually, like a finger callousing over, the rat becomes what you want - a squishy lump. But it's not because you've earned their respect or their love. It's because you've conditioned them that being squishy means they won't get shoved around or taken down, in a way. They put up more of an act of what they believe you want to make you stop, like your finger callousing over to make the guitar strings hurt less. 

Now, I don't believe that parent and alpha are two different things. If a parent is an alpha, you end up with problems. If your parents raise you like a dictator (and we've all seen this), when you get out into the "real" world, people tend to go absolutely crazy with all their new freedom. 

An alpha rules through respect, a parent rules through affection, or at least, that's how I interpret it. You become a rattie parent, in my mind, when you use positive reinforcement, and the rat learns that you are just a bundle of love and affection, and so they come to regard you all warm and fuzzy-like. Alphas are not afraid to use negative reinforcement _*only when necessary*_. Rats know with alphas that they will get affection if they're not doing anything bad. Alphas prove themselves to be worthy of leadership by showing that they dole out punishments only when needed, and are fair and just in other situations. Rats know this, and they try not to defy you not out of fear, but out of respect of your decisions and your leadership. 

I also take issue with spaying (assuming that's what you're referring to, since your rat is a girl) being a "senseless operation". Female rats often don't fall into the extreme hormone pit that boys do, though they do go into heat frequently and that may cause behavioral changes, but spaying has *real health benefits*. The most common form of tumor in female rats is mammary tumors, which spaying pretty much eliminates. From a behavioral standpoint, perhaps it has little impact, but it is NOT a senseless operation. In the end, it can save lives. 

I would also like to say, again, that I do believe negative reinforcement can work. But it should never, EVER be the first option you try, and should always be used in conjunction with some other method. For rats that bite, it is unfortunately a needed step (if not the FIRST step), as the behavior is unwanted, and positive reinforcement can also help or hurt in these situations. I'm not saying that what you do is wrong, Trenix, or what Rat Daddy does is right. What I AM saying is that *no* behavioral modification method should be used without first a clear knowledge of the animal's personality and hopefully their back story. A rat, for example, that is, say, only food aggressive, but is totally passive in other aspects of their lives, needs to be taken care of VERY DIFFERENTLY from a rat who is aggressive in nearly every area of their life. 

I'm also only on my second year of psychology, but... just my two cents. Animals that are capable of rational thinking should never have negative reinforcement used as their first mode of training. It can result in a lot of bad things. Positive reinforcement, like Rat Daddy displayed, can also lead to a lot of bad things... but I would much rather have a rat that wanted treats before dinner than a rat who I proved to I wasn't capable of leading without being ruthless and wrapping myself up in an even more aggressive flurry of fluff.


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## Trenix

Just something that I want to add. When I was taking psychology courses, they did touch upon parenting. The types were Authoritarian, Authoritative, Permissive, and Uninvolved. Authoritarian is the typical strict parent, you do this because I said so; end of discussion. Authoritative is a little more lenient than a strict parent, it's more like you do this and I'll tell you why you must do this. Permissive are those parents who barely discipline their children and allow them to do whatever. Uninvolved is pretty much self explanatory. You can look into it more here... http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm

It's not a shock that authoritative parenting is the best parenting around. It requires dominance, but has it's limits like I was saying. In my honest opinion, permissive and uninvolved parenting is flat out abuse. Even a authoritarian parent is better than a permissive or an uninvolved one as you can see on that website. Why do I find it abuse? Because once someone grows up, it goes back to the old saying, "It's hard to teach an old dog tricks". These parent lacking children are going to be our future criminals.




Pandorascaisse said:


> For example, I have my parent who believes in negative reinforcement and has dished it out verbally as well as physically for as long as I can remember. I, having a more meek and bidding personality by nature, have thoroughly been screwed up by it. And I don't believe anyone who tells me that negative reinforcement can't have these types of consequences - because I have SEEN the results negative reinforcement can have. I once encountered a horse who was beaten with a 2x4 for biting someone as a young, untrained and practically untouched ever two year old. The ONLY thing that worked on her was slow, steady, positive reinforcement. Jerky movements or yelling would put your life in danger. Now, I was not her trainer exclusively, rather she was more a case I was observing, but negative reinforcement, I truly believe, would have broken her completely.


What it seems to me is that you're not talking about Authoritarian parenting but rather abusive parenting. You can be dominate without being full blown abusive. Just take a look at our own rats for example, they can show dominance by simply pinning each other down. You know they're capable of flat out killing each other to establishing dominance, but they don't. Also take a look at Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer. He dominates animals without beating the crap out of them with a 2x4. Instead he just makes his hand something similar to a dog's jaw and nips them. Dominating a person or an animal does not equal abuse, that's just stupid media crap that we've been taught. It's the reason why people can no longer raise their **** children correctly.



Pandorascaisse said:


> In cases such as the horse, Charlotte, you may get the response you want. However, I believe that when you take negative reinforcement too far, you are NOT creating respect. You are creating a fear response. And, as we all know, fear responses CAN lead to more biddable personalities and willingness to do things. But, is that what you really want? The reason that trying positive reinforcement first, and then GENTLY adding negative reinforcement if the positive reinforcement doesn't work, is because you are TRYING to earn respect and set up communication with your rat - or _any_ animal, for that matter. There is nothing WRONG with negative reinforcement, that's not what I'm saying. But for most rats and domesticated animals, who have been bred for hundreds if not thousands of years in attempts to have more gentle natures, it can produce unwanted behaviors. Animals who feel fear do stupid things. Animals who don't learn that you are their parent or alpha may come to be "comfortable" around you.


You're making it seem like I'm saying to just randomly punish your animal. If while you're building up your communication with the animal ends up getting you bit, that's when you punish the animal.



Pandorascaisse said:


> If a parent is an alpha, you end up with problems. If your parents raise you like a dictator (and we've all seen this), when you get out into the "real" world, people tend to go absolutely crazy with all their new freedom.


Not true and I'm the living proof of it. I was in a strict household and I didn't go crazy with my new freedom, in fact I always felt more well behaved than anyone else. Strict parenting is bad parenting, but not the worst. What I can tell you is that I never beat up my parents or fought with them like some other people I know. That crap is so insane for me to even wrap my head around. Still to this day I respect my parents.



Pandorascaisse said:


> An alpha rules through respect, a parent rules through affection, or at least, that's how I interpret it. You become a rattie parent, in my mind, when you use positive reinforcement, and the rat learns that you are just a bundle of love and affection, and so they come to regard you all warm and fuzzy-like. Alphas are not afraid to use negative reinforcement _*only when necessary*_. Rats know with alphas that they will get affection if they're not doing anything bad. Alphas prove themselves to be worthy of leadership by showing that they dole out punishments only when needed, and are fair and just in other situations. Rats know this, and they try not to defy you not out of fear, but out of respect of your decisions and your leadership.


You can use love and affection all you want and you may even exercise this with years to come. However the worst people I've ever met have been raised with this idea in mind. They grow to be highly inconsiderate, annoying, lack manners, and are highly disrespectful. A parent shouldn't be your best friend and if the parent is, then they've officially failed at parenting. Leaders are more dominant than they are caring and loving. In fact, my most loving rat is the weakest and gets bullied by the rest. There is a time to love your pet, but it's abosultely worst time to do so when they're challenging your dominance.



Pandorascaisse said:


> I also take issue with spaying (assuming that's what you're referring to, since your rat is a girl) being a "senseless operation". Female rats often don't fall into the extreme hormone pit that boys do, though they do go into heat frequently and that may cause behavioral changes, but spaying has *real health benefits*. The most common form of tumor in female rats is mammary tumors, which spaying pretty much eliminates. From a behavioral standpoint, perhaps it has little impact, but it is NOT a senseless operation. In the end, it can save lives.


Surgeries are unnatural and therefore will only go with it unless it's completely necessary. I'm not going to spay my rats because it "may" stop a mammary tumor. For all I know, they all my live happily until the day they die so that surgery would have been meaningless.


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## Pandorascaisse

In the classes I've taken, there are ONLY three types of parenting listed: Authoritarian, Permissive, and Authoritative. Uninvolved is abusive and is not considered a form of parenting. Authoritarian can be considered abusive depending on how you are framing it and what falls under authoritative or authoritarian for you. About.com isn't generally a good source for these things (in fact, for all of our assignments, this website was forbidden from usage); I wish I still had my old psych book, I'd copy the text right from there. 


Authoritarian is borderline abuse. These types of parents are most likely to say, "because I said so", "because I'm the parent and you're the child", etc. Should parents be friends? No. Should parents be complete walls of brick that you can't talk to? No. On the same turn, uninvolved is abuse as well, as it involves neglect of the child. 


I just actually read a fascinating article summary about a group of Chinese adolescents posted by onto the Chinese Sociological Review. The study found that democratic parenting (another sort of subset of authoritative, I would say, though there are many different types of parenting out there, the main three still taught at least around here are limited to only authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive) actually increased academic achievement and lessened delinquent behaviors. 


I think the most relevant portion of the abstract is this: "Sons of democratic fathers have better academic achievements than sons of other types of fathers, including authoritative fathers."


So, parents and children shouldn't be friends. However, parents treating their children as EQUALS results in BETTER academic achievement and less delinquent behaviors. 


The journal of educational psychology reports that a "warm" parenting style results in better academic achievement among younger children. A report in the Journal for the Education of the Gifted shows that authoritative results in higher testing scores/placement tests for older children.


Now, why does any of this matter?
Because rats do not have intelligence similar to older children. While they are intelligent like humans, and are aware of what they do, and can be altruistic... I firmly believe they have intelligence more akin to a child; even a (nicer) toddler likes sharing and making their friends happy. I couldn't find any evidence on how they compare to humans, though knowing that dogs are around 2-3 years old in intelligence... I'd probably place rats somewhere around 4-5 years old, maybe even a little older, but certainly NOT a human teenager (though they can surely be bratty like some!). 


And what parenting styles work better on younger children? The ones that fall on the more "permissive" side of authoritative - democratic, and warm. Which suggests that these types of "training" styles may work better on rats, as they are of similar cognitive reasoning and ability to younger children. 


Again, I'm not saying it's RIGHT. But if we're going off of things based on published psychology, it definitely makes more sense to try to take a positive aspect BEFORE you jump into taking a negative aspect. I'm happy for you, that you beat the odds, but there are a lot of children that extremely strict parenting has messed up. I've seen it myself. We all have. 


I'm saying that skritches and warmness are a better way to deal with new rats to begin with. And then, if it doesn't work, negative reinforcement should be applied. You should observe and actually learn about your rat's personality, what's causing the biting, if there was something you could have done (other smells on your hands, new animal in the house, new rat in the house, illness in the rat in question) BEFORE choosing how to address it. There is no need to flat out smack a rat who's bit you because YOU were an idiot and left food on your hands. A gentle bop, yes, but that is a gentle negative reinforcement. There are levels to things. You don't start weight training by going to the GYM and trying to bench press 300 pounds! 


Also, here's a little tidbit about "may": http://www.ratbehavior.org/TumorSpaying.htm#Incidence
At least according to this, the most current UTD measurement on any strain of rat and their incidence of mammary tumors is 45%. Of course, diet, living conditions, genetics, etc all play a part - but that is still an extremely high number. Spaying is NOT unnecessary because mammary tumors tend to appear later in life (I've heard after 18 months, but I can't be sure), at which time surgeries to remove the tumors have a HIGHER CHANCE of resulting in death. It's less stress on the rat (and you) to do a spay than to remove an entire lump which may get infected from rubbing on the ground, have the incision get infected, etc, etc.


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## Trenix

Pandorascaisse said:


> In the classes I've taken, there are ONLY three types of parenting listed: Authoritarian, Permissive, and Authoritative. Uninvolved is abusive and is not considered a form of parenting. Authoritarian can be considered abusive depending on how you are framing it and what falls under authoritative or authoritarian for you. About.com isn't generally a good source for these things (in fact, for all of our assignments, this website was forbidden from usage); I wish I still had my old psych book, I'd copy the text right from there.


Yeah yeah, as is the wikipedia ect. Unfortunately I challenged one of my teachers stating that anyone can make a book and put anything in it, similar to anyone can make a website and put anything on it. Therefore if a book is a reliable source than so should the wikipedia. I won the argument and was fully supported by my class, which made that one particular report extremely easy from previous ones. Think that was my last year of college too, got a little fed up with that wikipedia hatred they had.



Pandorascaisse said:


> Authoritarian is borderline abuse. These types of parents are most likely to say, "because I said so", "because I'm the parent and you're the child", etc. Should parents be friends? No. Should parents be complete walls of brick that you can't talk to? No. On the same turn, uninvolved is abuse as well, as it involves neglect of the child.


On the contrary, the parent is actually fully involved in the child's life, the problem is that it's a tad too much so much that the parent is telling the child exactly how to live it's life. You see neglect is a very misleading word to use, because to me neglect is a parent who has no responsibility or even gets involved in a child's life. You keep making it seem like being upright dominate is abusive continuously, so I'll show you were it isn't. Here is an example, your teenage daughter wants to go to a party tonight and she's dressed inappropriately and you know her friend that she's going with gets into trouble a lot. So you tell her she can't go; end of discussion. That authoritarian parenting wasn't abusive or for a bad cause, it was just simply a style of parenting. Are you going to tell me that anyone who says these exact words to their daughter should be locked away?



Pandorascaisse said:


> So, parents and children shouldn't be friends. However, parents treating their children as EQUALS results in BETTER academic achievement and less delinquent behaviors.


I don't really see how parenting can be Democratic when the two parents will always out number the child and if you're a single parent with a child, you'll always bump into ties. I understand the idea of putting up for discussion something, but still the parents are going to be in control regardless. Still the idea of putting up for discussion is the best way to go, so the child actually knows what's going on and figures out exactly why they can do this or that.



Pandorascaisse said:


> The journal of educational psychology reports that a "warm" parenting style results in better academic achievement among younger children. A report in the Journal for the Education of the Gifted shows that authoritative results in higher testing scores/placement tests for older children.


Yes authoritative is best, however you're making it seem like authoritarian is the worst, which is not entirely true. Children who were raised permissively which is a very "warm" parenting style, also weren't the best in testing scores. Also I don't understand how testing scores matter whatsoever when it comes to parenting styles. When children are in school there is a whole different parenting atmosphere all together from each teacher.



Pandorascaisse said:


> And what parenting styles work better on younger children? The ones that fall on the more "permissive" side of authoritative - democratic, and warm. Which suggests that these types of "training" styles may work better on rats, as they are of similar cognitive reasoning and ability to younger children.


Now you're just making things up. Even in my own classroom every style of parenting was frowned upon aside from authoritative. There is no permissive side of authoritative, stop making it seem like permissive parenting is a good thing. It's a downright terrible thing and I seen the effects of it. From what I've seen without using books or other sources, is that people which were raised permissively are inconsiderate, bad mannered, annoying, and disrespectful. In addition, all the "warm" parenting they receive makes them truly not accept failure. I welcome failure, because in psychology you learn that failure is a good thing since you're capable of learning from your mistakes. Since they don't accept failure, they don't learn from their mistakes, so those are the exact people which don't realize something is a bad idea until something bad happens to them, usually when it's too late.



Pandorascaisse said:


> Again, I'm not saying it's RIGHT. But if we're going off of things based on published psychology, it definitely makes more sense to try to take a positive aspect BEFORE you jump into taking a negative aspect. I'm happy for you, that you beat the odds, but there are a lot of children that extremely strict parenting has messed up. I've seen it myself. We all have.


I haven't, but I've seen people get messed up from being abused. I mean just look at the army, they'll teach you what it means to be dominated and respected. Do you think that's abusive as well? 




Pandorascaisse said:


> I'm saying that skritches and warmness are a better way to deal with new rats to begin with. And then, if it doesn't work, negative reinforcement should be applied. You should observe and actually learn about your rat's personality, what's causing the biting, if there was something you could have done (other smells on your hands, new animal in the house, new rat in the house, illness in the rat in question) BEFORE choosing how to address it. There is no need to flat out smack a rat who's bit you because YOU were an idiot and left food on your hands. A gentle bop, yes, but that is a gentle negative reinforcement. There are levels to things. You don't start weight training by going to the GYM and trying to bench press 300 pounds!


I truly think you're confused with authoritarian and abusive parenting. Just because someone is an authoritiarian parent, doesn't mean they abuse thier children and leave them with bruises. Authoritative parenting is exactly like authoritarian aside from the whole explaination aspect, that's really all. Discplining is otherwise completely the same. Authoritarian parenting doesn't mean you're going to be more physically abusive than authoritative.



Pandorascaisse said:


> Also, here's a little tidbit about "may": http://www.ratbehavior.org/TumorSpaying.htm#Incidence
> At least according to this, the most current UTD measurement on any strain of rat and their incidence of mammary tumors is 45%. Of course, diet, living conditions, genetics, etc all play a part - but that is still an extremely high number. Spaying is NOT unnecessary because mammary tumors tend to appear later in life (I've heard after 18 months, but I can't be sure), at which time surgeries to remove the tumors have a HIGHER CHANCE of resulting in death. It's less stress on the rat (and you) to do a spay than to remove an entire lump which may get infected from rubbing on the ground, have the incision get infected, etc, etc.


There is also a section about pet rats and it reads, "The studies listed above show that a laboratory rat's susceptibility to tumors varies widely depending on the strain, from 17% to 75% for mammary tumors, and from 39% to 66% for pituitary tumors. But pet rats are not laboratory rats. Rats within a laboratory rat strain are closely related and therefore will be more consistent in their risk for developing diseases with a genetic component than pet rats, which are genetically more variable." Also read this http://www.ratbehavior.org/SpayTumorIncidencePetRat.html. It tells me that even after my rats is spayed, they still may get a mammary tumor.


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## Trenix

Here is my updated response...



Pandorascaisse said:


> Also, here's a little tidbit about "may": http://www.ratbehavior.org/TumorSpaying.htm#Incidence
> At least according to this, the most current UTD measurement on any strain of rat and their incidence of mammary tumors is 45%. Of course, diet, living conditions, genetics, etc all play a part - but that is still an extremely high number. Spaying is NOT unnecessary because mammary tumors tend to appear later in life (I've heard after 18 months, but I can't be sure), at which time surgeries to remove the tumors have a HIGHER CHANCE of resulting in death. It's less stress on the rat (and you) to do a spay than to remove an entire lump which may get infected from rubbing on the ground, have the incision get infected, etc, etc.


There is also a section on the website about pet rats and it reads, "The studies listed above show that a laboratory rat's susceptibility to tumors varies widely depending on the strain, from 17% to 75% for mammary tumors, and from 39% to 66% for pituitary tumors. *But pet rats are not laboratory rats.* Rats within a laboratory rat strain are closely related and therefore will be more consistent in their risk for developing diseases with a genetic component than pet rats, which are genetically more variable". Basically what that means is that what's going to happen to my rats is completely random. Also read this: http://www.ratbehavior.org/SpayTumorIncidencePetRat.html. It tells me that even after my rats is spayed, they still may get tumors anyway. You make it seem like it's going to be my fault if my rats get a tumor because I didn't spay them. Let nature take it's course, who am I to put my animals into surgery because it may oppose a health risk when the surgery itself can even kill them.


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## Pandorascaisse

Most things work on a spectrum. From my perspective, the spectrum of parenting is like this:

Authoritarian - Authoritative - Permissive
With all of the different parenting "sub" styles falling in-between. There are a million and a half ways to raise a child. I'm saying that democratic and "warm" parenting styles, as they are called by those who study/use them, would fall more _towards_ permissive and less towards authoritarian. I'm not making anything up; I was going through a bunch of journals on a scientific database to write that. Rats have similar intelligence to a young child. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that discipline/parenting styles that work best (as far as academic achievements/happiness of the child, studied through surveys) for human children of that age group as far as setting up communications, teaching, etc would work best for rats as well? I can go dig up the abstracts, if you'd like. This is not about.com, this is actual peer-reviewed scientific-based evidence we're talking about here. I would hope you could see that's at least a little more reliable. 

You seem to believe that every single authoritative parent will be the same as any other, or that every authoritarian parent will be the same as any other - same with permissive. Abuse tends to fall more towards the authoritarian side because people who are abused need to be under complete control of the abuser. I'm not saying authoritarian parents are automatically abusive, but that the styles of that type of parenting would certainly mesh well with it. My own mother was brought up under such a parenting style... and she and my uncles have not faired well from it at all. 

Like I said. Your "authoritative parenting" isn't the be all end all. There are other parenting styles proven more effective, but out of the three you've listed, it IS the best. But it works off of give and take. You are not the ultimate ruler of everything as an authoritative parent. It allows you room to see both sides of the coin.

I don't even see why you're continuing to argue with me about this; this is not about parenting of children. This is about helping rats. All I am saying is that, from my point of view, the styles and ways of "conditioning" used on creatures of similar intelligence(s) and mindsets should seem to work best with others. There is no one way that will work with any child, or any rat. Immersion, from my point of view, is about learning who your rat is, just like a parent needs to learn about their child. A child with a more naturally rebellious nature will perhaps work better with a stricter parent, or a less strict parent - it all depends on the complicated facets of their personality. Are they rebellious because they're actual rebels? Because they're curious about the world and want to see it? Or are they rebellious in the sense that they just don't fit into the norm? On the flip side, a child who is more shy might benefit from stricter parenting or less strict parenting in the same manner. Are they shy because their self esteem is low? Are they shy because they're more attached to mom or dad? Are they shy because they don't like social environments or don't feel as comfortable in them?

Jumping straight into pure negative reinforcement can really hurt your relationship with your rat. If you understand what is causing a behavior (i.e., "my rat only bites when I wear nailpolish", or "but the biting stops after I wash my hands"), it is much easier to fix it. Sometimes, it's not the rat's fault and there are things that make rats uncomfortable to a point where they can't stand it just like there are things that make humans uncomfortable to a point where they can't stand it. Jumping straight into smacking a rat or yelling loudly and scaring them just because YOU made the mistake of leaving your hands covered in some food can have bad consequences depending on the rat. Is biting ever acceptable? No. But if the only reason the rat bit is because you were performing an incorrect behavior, who's the one who deserves to be punished for it? Observation is key in any sort of psychology technique. 

That being said, I'm not even going to bother discussing the spaying issue further with you. It's not relevant to this topic whatsoever.


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## Pandorascaisse

Also, you seem to forget that books may have a whole team of people to edit them, just like online journals in databases are all peer-reviewed. There is no one out there to peer-review a random webpage on the internet. Text books often have many authors, or if there is only one "author", many many editors. This is because textbooks (as well as online journals) are red scrupulously front to cover by many experts that examine every single thing about them. Web pages are simply no more than we are stating here on this thread; things that could be academically right or things that could be academically wrong. No one can go in and alter a textbook or a report after it has been looked over, edited, looked over again, peer-reviewed, and posted. In fact, for the database I use for my research into things, an article has to go through an entire board of experts in the field and if they find anything wrong with it it is rejected, and must be edited and re-submitted and only when everyone on the council agrees can the journal or report be added to the database.


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## sarah424

I've always heard and believed that the best trainers use the least amount of force necessary... If a gentle bop and a stern (but not yelling) voice work to stop biting or nibbling too hard, I don't really see why you would have to pick up your rat and shout at it. The mental picture I have of that is a bit silly! I've never had a rat that bit and drew blood, though. I can tell it takes a bit more than what I'm talking about, and yes they can give pretty nasty bites but I also agree that some of that you're saying Trenix is a bit excessive... Not I am against negative reinforcement! My GSD is so large and so much stronger than me that I can't physically stop him when he decides to take me for a ride and had to use a prong collar to give him serious incentive to stop pulling me into cars or charging at other dogs to attack them! But that was turning into a life or death situation, and he was being trained along with the collar to ignore those things. He doesn't wear it anymore. 

My dog Xena is so pain tolerant that the amount of force I would have to use to physically correct her would be animal abuse! Not to mention she is epileptic and I need her environment to be as low stress as possible... I don't know, I just like to think that I can get my dog or rat to do the same thing yours can but with less force. Maybe that's soft but that's how I feel! I like how immersion is trying to communicate with your rat so that they understand 

The whole thing about kids frankly lost me because these are animals, and not people!


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## Kitterpuss

My mum is a retired teacher, and always said that the teachers you could hear screaming and shouting from the other class rooms where the once that had lost control  

My boys respond very well to the change in tone in my voice, no need for shouting or to really raise my voice at all. They've never bit me right enough, so I can't really pass judgement on what it takes to stop a biting rat.


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## Blackthorn

I have no wish to get involved in this discussion (though it disturbs me how many people on here think it's ok to smack around their rats) but a pet peeve of mine is nagging me here.  Negative reinforcement and positive punishment are two different things. "Negative" and "positive" are not referring to "bad" or "good," it is strictly taking away or giving a stimulus that either encourages or discourages a behavior. Positive punishment is hitting, yelling at, etc to decrease a behavior (ie, biting) - adding the stimulus of hitting to decrease the behavior (biting). Negative reinforcement is *taking away* a stimulus that results in *increasing* the behavior.

http://bcotb.com/the-difference-bet...einforcement-and-positivenegative-punishment/


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## Blackthorn

An example of negative reinforcement: You put away a fearful rat when it bites. The aversive stimulus (handling) is removed when the behavior occurs (biting) thus the behavior increases.

http://allpsych.com/psychology101/reinforcement.html


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## Rat Daddy

Blackthorn is actually correct. We aren't using the term negative reinforcement properly, but rather we are using the pop-psychology misuse of the term. What we are really talking about is the use of negative or more correctly aversive stimulus to cause an aversion response. 

Most people associate punishment with justice and revenge and all sorts of ideas and value judgments that have nothing to do with behavior modification or immersion. As in "Murderers deserve to be punished" or "Death is the right punishment for murder" or "I think castration is a fair punishment for a sex offender." 

Up until now, everyone understood what we were all talking about, but I suppose I knew it couldn't last... (insert appropriate similey face here.)

Going forward, lets use the immersion terms "positive communication" to indicate a reward or an experience a rat would want more of and "negative communication" to denote an experience that a rat would want to avoid or receive less of.


I was actually working on anther comment in which I wrote a single sentence 3 paragraphs long (metaphorically speaking) to explain the use of the term "alpha" in another sentence, then I noticed that I used the term "parent" in that sentence and realized based on the current discussion I would need another 3 paragraphs to define what I meant by parent and at the end, I think I pretty much did a pretty good job except no one was ever going to understand the message of the original point I was making.

So, as we've gotten gotten busted, going forward it's negative and positive communication or stimulus. I realize it's going to make a paragraph longer and be a little more confusing to some people, but in the end we should use words and terms properly to convey their original meanings.


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## Rat Daddy

I suppose to weigh in a little further regarding definitions... alpha is a term which denotes the highest status accorded in groups of social animals. The actual roles of the alpha vary from species to species. In some cases it includes first access to food or mating partners or a leadership role. Depending on the species an alpha may be more or less controlling or dominant and this no doubt would vary from one individual alpha to another. Rats have a fairly loose social structure where individuals act fairly autonomously. When my daughter encountered the wild pack of rats, I certainly couldn't pick out the alpha from the rest. All of the rats looked very much alike and acted very much alike, but that doesn't mean that the alpha wasn't there or that he couldn't have sounded an alarm or wouldn't have eventually stepped up and introduced himself.

The rats were obviously moving in a group and acting as a group, there's a fair chance that the alpha was leading the foraging party that my daughter came across and if so was likely one of the first rats to begin the game with her which the other rats were joining in. But in no stretch of the term alpha was there a Ben-like rat general standing around squeaking orders.

Usually when I refer to a human alpha to a group of domestic rats I'm referring to something like a parental role. And by parental role I'm talking about a reasonably normal middle of the road 1960's TV parent. The kind I grew up with or watched on my black and white TV when I was a kid, as in Dennis the Menace, Leave it to Beaver etc... The kind that is understanding, comforting, reassuring and sets appropriate limits which are appropriately enforced. Sometimes I might stress that a human alpha should be a leader, sometimes he or she might have to reinforce their status and defend challenges like a rat alpha might, but he or she always should let their rats explore and become competent and independent individuals while protecting them from harm.

I really is amazing how we can get all tangled up in trying to explain what we mean by complicating things more than they have to be.

Next I'd like to address the use of negative communication or negative stimulus (again I'm purposefully avoiding using the word punishment because it has too many connotations for my purpose). There are simply times I have to say "no" as a human dad to a human child. I don't like to say 'no' but sometimes it is the appropriate response. My wife will negotiate and deflect and convolute matters and offer alternatives until my daughter gets all confused about what she wants, I just say no. My daughter has learned that when dad says no, something isn't going to happen unless she can get Mom to do it for her. Likewise as a rat alpha you have to set certain limits on your rats behavior. My experience indicates that rats don't understand the generic term "no" but they can learn phrases like 'no fighting' or 'no chewing'. When my rats are fighting I don't offer them a snickers bar to stop... I shout 'no fighting' and they stop. Rats respond perfectly well to negative communications they understand. And obviously a gently bop or swat in response to attacking you is a negative communication in response to their negative communication to you. And for the most part rats understand, moreover they need to understand who is telling them no. If your child says no to you it's not something you need to be guided by. "As in no daddy, don't go to work today." but when you say no to your child as in "No you can't play in the street" it's more appropriate that the parental 'no' should be more binding.

We all like to say yes and reward our children and our rats whenever we can. But that isn't always possible or appropriate. After taking the appropriate time to understand that your rat actually is communicating aggression towards you, there are generally two responses that will stop the biting... submission or negative communication back. Lets face it you can't submit to a aggressive and biting rat as in give him the keys to the place and get out of his way or move out. That's not going to work. Likewise you can't turn over control of your household to you 5 year old either. So your best and likely first choice would be to defend against the aggression with negative communication on your own part. First you are communicating that you need the aggression and biting to stop and second you are communicating that you are the appropriate authority figure to be making this demand, the alpha as defined above. By defining your status at the same time as you are communicating negatively about the biting you are building a basis for the continued relationship. As the human alpha you should almost never need to use force again and as your rat respects you a stern 'no' can go a very long way.

To address a few other terms lie bop or slap or pin... For the most part this is an issue of one person saying one thing and another hearing something else entirely. My version of the rat bop was something I observed from my 5 year old daughter. When her rats 'misbehaved' she gave them a little bop and they almost instantly changed their behavior. It was out and out amazing how instant the response was, and there wasn't even an interruption in the play session. When bopped the rat just stopped doing what my daughter disapproved of and the two kept playing on completely as if nothing had happened. There was no trauma, no side effects no fight back, in fact the rat didn't even stop moving, it just changed direction. I made notes of these rare occurrences and I found that not only did the rat stop doing a particular behavior, for the most part it never repeated the behavior again! Not that I intentionally set out to test the effectiveness of the rat bop, but it was such a successful procedure I sure noted it and I've recommended it....

But keep in mind, we are talking about a very little girl, bopping a very fat rat with love in her heart and no ill will or malice intended. It was nothing like the kind of force I could inflict with my fist or even my open hand. When one of our rats decided to dig through the carpet, I sat next to her and bopped her over 10 times before she even looked up from her destruction, intentionally ignoring me. She learned that I was never going to hurt her so bops from me didn't actually deter much. But when I say "bop a rat (with love in your heart)" I'm not even remotely suggesting that someone should inflict injury on their rat.

Likewise when folks use terms like bop, smack, pin, grab etc. I'm assuming they aren't intending to be misread as abusive or implying that anyone actually injure or abuse their rats.

It really is important that we give each other the benefit of the doubt or there will be no way to communicate here. We really need to understand that we are all rat parents and animal lovers and none of us are intentionally hurting our animals.


I'm sure there people out there that do mean 'bop with a baseball bat' and 'smack with a golf club' and 'pin with a car' but lets assume they don't come to rat sites to get and give good advise. If you have any doubts about what someone means ask, don't assume the worst.

English is a very imprecise language. There is a big difference when a rat trainer says "bop a rat" and an exterminator says "bop a rat". The words are precisely the same but the message and the action that they are conveying is vastly different. 

I've felt slighted or offended from time to time and I know I've been misunderstood from time to time too. And certain comments have really upset me at their face value, but then I stop and try to remember that I'm addressing another rat owner, someone who shares my own love and respect for our furry friends and I try to re-read their post in that light and more times than not I realize they didn't intend to offend or weren't suggesting anything cruel or abusive. 

There are a whole lot of people out there that don't share our fondness for our furry friends and in fact aren't very fond of us. If we really have adversaries or even enemies... they are out there and not here on Rat Forum. Lets all try to assume the best possible scenarios going forward, not the worst when we read something we might find ambiguous.


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## tiquanunderwood

Is it suitable to do immersion/trust training on my bed in my room? I give them a blanket to seek refuge in if they please. Was just wondering if this a big enough spot.


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## Rat Daddy

A bed can work, but if you are chasing your rat around trying to keep him or her off the floor and not interacting for the fun of it and to promote communication you are defeating the trust building qualities of immersion. Your being the spoil sport or the big predator in the room.


Put another way...

If your rat hangs out with you above and under the blankets and you can be playful and interactive it will work just fine... if you are playing cat and mouse you are stressing your rat for no good reason. 

There are many tweaks on immersion that work, depending on the rat and the human, it boils down to the theory of building trust based on interaction and communication.... If your rat keeps saying "I want to see what's under this bed" and you keep saying "Get back here!", you can miss the point of "Hey, I'm lots of fun let's play together". If your rat is friendly and inquisitive and engages you under the sheets and you are having fun together it's a perfect immersion area. 

It's perfectly OK to be flexible as long as you keep your objectives and the theory in mind, but if it starts going sideways, be ready to switch back to proven methods before you do more harm than good. In a small room the walls passively manage the action for you and you don't need to do as much rat management as you work on bonding.

Best luck!


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## sarasmithhh

Last week I adopted two baby rats and one of them is coming along great and will come to me when I open the cage door, she will sit in my lap and allow me to pet her. But her sister on the other hand is very very scared.. She won't come to me, she will rarely come up to me, and just wants nothing to do with me.. I've tried one on one bonding with her but she just tries to run away the whole time. I want her to come out of her shell but I don't want to be forceful on her.. I've tried the hoodie method but she doesn't like being in the pocket, I've tried to just carry her around while I'm cleaning or doing whatever but she tries to run away the whole time. If you had any advice what so ever Id be grateful


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## Rat Daddy

This is actually quite common when you adopt two rats at the same time. One steps up and becomes quite intrepid and the other falls back and becomes shy or fearful. I don't know if it's a social mechanism in rats that causes one rat to step up and take a leadership role or if it's "I'll take that one too" syndrome in humans; where the human picks the most active and engaging rat out of the litter or bin and then picks her a friend from among the more timid rats. I'm oddly observing this peculiar role reversal going on in my home now... As our younger rat is stepping up into a leadership role the older rat is becoming more reclusive. I bring it up because sometimes the way your rats react to you isn't always a matter of fear, neither of our rats are afraid of us and they have spent most of their time free ranging the house so they have nothing to fear there either...

There is a possibility that one rat will always be more intrepid and engaging than her sister. Still, your situation with your more shy rat may be vastly improved through proper bond building and communication.

Before immersion the bonding pouch method was actually very effective with certain rats. It had the benefit of long sessions and the rat in the pouch was usually more frightened of it's surroundings than the human she was attached to, so she learned to cling to her human and stay in her pouch for security and safety. The pouch was less successful when the rat was more afraid of the human than the surroundings and with rats that were always stuck in high gear. Yes, some female rats just seem to be jammed into high gear, they can't stop going and going and going... They may not be afraid of anything, but they can't sit still in a pouch either.

It's important to note, that this doesn't have to be read as your rat being stuck in gear, overly fearful of you, or socially withdrawn, she can be any combination of these elements at the same time, and we can never discount the possibility that she was mistreated in some way before you adopted her.

Naturally I realize you are more concerned with building a relationship with your skittish rat than diagnosing her, so lets move on...

First choose your immersion area. It should be large enough for her to explore a bit, but not so large that you can't stay engaged. This means you may not always be able to reach out and touch her, but that you can slide or crawl to follow her. You want to be down on the same level as she is and be accessible to her. You're not towering over her, but rather she can climb all over you if she wants. And rather than having to chase her around let the walls do the work of keeping her out of trouble. I like a hallway, some folks use bathrooms other's have large closets, some folks use large pens or small bedrooms with hiding spaces blocked off.

You should expect that your rats will explore their surroundings first when you get them into the immersion area, if they don't have any basic bond to you whereas rats that already feel comfortable with you will stay on you before going exploring. But in any case they need a while to adjust to their surroundings and feel comfortable and secure there. 

To some degree the immersion space is intentionally boring, which makes you the most interesting thing in the room by default. Bring a few treats along, and maybe a feather toy or whatever might make you more interesting to your rat and give her a little time to adjust... It's really best with a fearful or shy rat that she engages you rather than you chasing her, but this can literally take hours or even days. So we're going to speed things up a little by you being a little bit more engaging and assertive.

You mentioned your concern about being forceful, but the term appropriate force is a matter of degree which depends on the rat, the human and the situation. Lifting a feather requires some very tiny degree of force while jacking up a dump truck requires a whole lot more. Similarly pushing in a thumb tack takes less force and control than driving in a railroad spike... With shy and fearful rats we're picking up feathers or pushing in thumbtacks not doing heavy lifting or driving spikes. Your aren't trying to overwhelm your rat, but you need to be interactive or you can wind up with you in one corner of the space and her in the other. Engage by offering treats, skritches, scoop ups and gauge her reaction. This is very basic communication... Engage, observe her response and reply accordingly... It's absolutely normal for her to respond to your first overtures of friendship by telling you she's afraid of you; she's tiny and you are huge. So you pretty much respond by telling her, "I'm right here and I'm not hurting you... I just want to be your friend." If she stops to preen think, don't disturb her. Rats think their deepest thoughts while preening, it sounds odd, but I've observed rats do some pretty amazing 180 degree turns in their behavior after a long preen session. 

The reason this is a guide and not a cookbook is because every human and every rat that goes into the immersion area are different, so each conversation or dialogue is different. I've had some rats run right up to us as soon as we sat down or laid down with them while other's needed more coaxing and gentle engagement. Some rats outright attack their humans so engagement takes a very different course, it's more like combat than dating. Some folks are inherently very sensitive and shy themselves and have trouble even reaching out to their rat while others have aggressive personalities and have a tendency to overwhelm anyone around them.... That's why we are cooking to taste, not by recipe.

By watching how your rat is reacting to you, you can measure how effective your communication is being. You are looking for a certain degree of cognitive stress. Because without some degree of stress we don't change and we don't think... Like final exams tend to make students study harder, and an upcoming driver's test makes people practice driving more often and a speeding ticket or three makes people drive more slowly. Stress to a point is a very good thing, but if your rat is panicking and cowering in a corner snapping at you, you need to dial back the level of engagement.

My daughter was small and playful but she had a good intuitive sense about animals, she would scurry around after her new rats and in almost no time they would be climbing all over her, after a while they would approach me more apprehensively to see who the big quiet human was, and it always took me longer to break through the ice with them, but eventually they would climb on me when my daughter was being too engaging... "Help Daddy, Mommy's lost her mind..." and a few minutes later they would charge off to play with my daughter again... as in "You're too boring... give me more crazy." Immersion was a fun three way dynamic. An engaging little girl, a safe and secure adult and a rat bouncing between the two for the attention it wanted or needed. And our hallway is pretty good size so the rats never feel trapped, but it isn't too large where they feel afraid of wide open spaces either.

So schedule at least a few hours, because long sessions make more progress than short ones, (it's OK to take a few short breaks if you must) but better to play through... and get started.

Progress and success are measured by the nature of the communication, some rats will roll over for skritches on their bellies, if that happens skritch them and make a really big deal over it... This is a rat's way of offering you her friendship and loyalty, it's the ultimate expression of trust. It's a very big thing for your rat to offer you this kind of love, so she expects that you really reward her for it in a super big way. Some rats will climb up on you and nap, again this is another super expression of trust, just hunker down and snuggle for as long as you can or for as long as your rat wants to be snugged in to you. You've put a lot of effort to get to the belly rub or nap... don't blow it here, even if this takes immersion into overtime, rejecting a rats affection at this point is akin to tossing a guys engagement ring into the lake when he offers it to you.... you might not get another one for a very long time. And some rats are just going to play on and with you... no grand gestures, but they will be engaging you rather than you needing to engage them, they will be asking for treats, and trying to get you to follow them around and exploring under your clothes and being very different than they were before... Again every rat is different.

Remember, immersion is a process of communication.... engage, let your rat respond and reply appropriately. It's like dating. If you never get together you won't build much of a relationship, but you might not want to start out by clubbing your new boyfriend with a baseball bat and dragging him back to your apartment either. When you see that he likes what he sees or what he hears, show or tell him a little bit more and engage and intrigue him in the right direction... Remember your rats really want to be your family and friends, just like you want to be theirs, rats and humans are social animals and they like to be together and bond to each other quite naturally... The object of the exercise is to facilitate this organic interaction.

Congratulations on your new babies and best luck on your new family.


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## Rhonwen

I've been doing some research on health and behavior in rats and recently stumbled across this thread. WOW. A LOT of good information to be found here, and it's beyond valuable to get it all straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I haven't read the full thread (there's 40 pages and my eyes are strained now), but Rat Daddy, your knowledge on rat behavior has been hugely enlightening. I moved into a new house 2 months ago, and am planning on introducing some ratties once the last of the repairs/construction is done. I have had minor exposure to the rodent-kind when I was a kid and teenager, but wasn't sure what I was getting myself into with this new adventure. I'm feeling more confident of how to proceed in actually picking out my rattie friendswhen the time comes. I'm also pretty relieved you're such a fixture on this thread and I'm sure I'll be back with questions once the new family members have arrived!

I do have a question now for you though if you wouldn't mind? I have a square hallway between the bathroom and bedrooms, each wall is about 3' long, is this a suitably sized place to do some immersion work once the ratties are home?


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## Rat Daddy

The first rule for the immersion area is that you have to work with what you have. I prefer a space that's a bit larger because my daughter who is 9 is agile and likes to play and it give both little girl and rats some running room to interact in. An older person like myself might prefer a smaller space.

Contrary to the opinion of some folks that don't understand the process, this is a bonding process based on communication and rats communicate with their feet. They can run away, or charge you or approach you apprehensively or run around playfully or just have space to stop and preen thing, they need to be able to explore you as well as withdraw and have a little space to relax.... 3 feet by 3 feet is a little tight but it can work as long as you don't overcrowd your rat and manage the small space properly. Remember you want to engage your rat, then let it respond and reply appropriately depending on what it's telling you. When the space is too small you run the risk of not getting the best feed back from your rat or intimidating it. 

Once you get into the space with your rat or rats see how it feels, if you can relax and interact and your rats generally calm down and become comfortable there, it will be fine. Remember your looking for a natural organic interaction, not a forceful one.

Remember, immersion theory is based on the life of a truly amazing real rat who developed her own strategy of communication with people. She was a social animal that had a real need to belong to her mixed human and rat family, and she actually understood people and other rats and situations and she had emotions just like the humans do. Perhaps she could be compared to a really smart dog or even a child, and as she aged she became more mature in her understanding and she learned a surprising number of human words and gestures along the way. Not to mention that Fuzzy Rat became a true shoulder rat and was competent enough to explore outdoors with only limited supervision. She was in fact a most uncommon rat, but the core elements of her being are common to all rats... They are smart, social and emotional animals that can actually understand and don't just react to stimulus. There's no common language for us to share with our rats, so we make it up as we go... At the end of her life Fuzzy Rat was practically paralyzed by tumors. She tapped her fore-paws and pointed with her nose and licked to tell us what she needed and where she wanted to go. She made her last public appearance at the town 4th of July picnic, one boy asked if she was an animated toy because she could only move her head. But she still gave kisses and did a 6 hour meet and greet making new friends among the children and adults and she seemed particularly happy to see her old friends one last time... She tapped her feet to be put down to potty, she insisted on a piece of sausage sandwich from a vendor and even asked to be put on the ground to snack on a piece of corn on the cob someone dropped. If she hadn't learned to communicate so effectively, she would have died or had to be put to sleep long before her farewell appearance... She passed away peacefully only two weeks later after asking to be put back in her cage for the last time.

Immersion is about introducing yourself, showing your rat that you are his or her new friend, building a bond and getting your rat to understand that you can understand him or her as well as getting your rat to start understanding you. It's not the size of the space that most critical, it's how you use it. I doubt most rats really ever understand what a human is, but for the most part they can come to see us as something like giant rats... like themselves. And that's where you start to build a great lifelong relationship.

Best luck.


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## Duramater

My family & I adopted 2 baby girls (7 weeks old today) from a breeder. We've had them for about a week and a half. Since the girls were handled from birth, they were already pretty friendly & well-socialized when we got them. But, like any new pet, they were a little timid with us in the beginning. I tried some of the immersion techniques with them, & now have ratties who will take treats from our hands, accept scritches & belly rubs, play with us, ride on our shoulders, and burrow into our clothes & fall asleep. They brux often during playtime, & will run to us when startled. I feel like we're doing pretty well, except one thing: the girls still won't come out of their cage willingly! I've made it a point to have them out with us everyday for at least an hour or 2, and they seem to enjoy playtime (or nap time on us, depending on their mood) as much as the humans do. But try as I might, I can't seem to coax them to come out of the cage on their own. They'll greet us through the cage bars, & will even step partway out into a hand to reach a treat, but will immediately dart back in if we try to carry them away. Knowing how important daily play is for building a relationship, I've been "forcing" it a little, & just scooping them up. They might squirm a little, but they never freak out about it, so I didn't feel too bad about it at first. But as more time goes by & the girls continue to be "cage bound," I can't help but worry that I may be doing more harm than good. Am I doing the right thing here? Will things get better on their own given more time? Are the girls just nervous about the "big predators" (dogs & cats) that they smell in the home? Or does their reluctance to come out of the cage mean that our immersion didn't go as well as I had thought it did??


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## Rat Daddy

I can't honestly say what impact your other animals are having on your new rats. Some rats actually seem to enjoy getting to know dogs and cats while others are terrified of them. 

Without other animals involved, it's normal for rats to stress out whenever you introduce anything new to them... Stress and perhaps fear is just the way rats and humans respond to change. It's not something to worry about unless it turns into panic.

Bring a blanket with you and let your rats explore on you and under it first then just let them explore away from you. Normally it can take from a few hours to a couple of weeks for them to become relatively competent and confident exploring your room or house...


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## Rhonwen

My first rat is home and the first immersion session completed. He was super inquisitive about my hallway space (And rat daddy, I was wrong about how big it is... it's closer to 5' x 5', plenty of room for my to stretch my legs out, and not touch the other wall.) At first alfie was not in the least bit interested in me, which I kind of expected, new scents and space to explore after all. I scritched him when he'd come close, praising him when he'd claim over me, and offering treats. He had absolutely no interest in treats, although he'd take them from me the first few times I offered, he's promptly put it down and go about exploring. I guess about half way through he came to me, crawled into the space between my criss-crossed legs and settled down to cuddle. At least, I assume he was cuddling. No rapid breathing, not quivering like he was when I picked him up from his previous owner's. He really really loves having his cheeks and chin scratched... not as big on the ears. While I was petting him his eyes got slitty, but not quite closed. 

I do have a question. During our playtime he would lay down on the floor against the far wall, and peer at me. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that, maybe he was feeling threatened? Prior to his lying down, I'd been following him around the space, attempting to get him to engage in play. If I retreated, he didn't do anything, just lay there and watched me, nose going a mile a minute. (FWIW, rat noses when they are engaged... SO CUTE!). Once he started moving around again, he'd soon come back to me and curl up in my lap, or run around between my legs. 

His previous owner thought he was about 6-7 months old. He was full grown when she got him, and she's had him for about 4 months. I'm thinking he's closer to a year than what she estimated.


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## Rat Daddy

Most rats will preen when they think, but it sounds like Alfie was just laying against the far wall trying to figure out what was going on... During immersion rats get more attention and affection than they have ever been used to and it's not uncommon for them to be a bit confused about suddenly being the focus of a humans interest... When rats aren't sure what to do they sometimes do nothing other than try and gather more information... he's sniffing and looking around to try and get a clue what's going on... Then quite appropriately after figuring you are really there for him, he's approaching you and offering you his attention and affection. It can be a bit of a dance. Just like you aren't sure what he's doing, he isn't sure what you are doing and you are testing each other looking for responses to reply to.

Remember you are sharing an experience with an intelligent learning animal much like yourself. Immersion has given you a bit of a script to follow, Alfie is working with his instincts and experiences. You're engaging each other, you are testing each other and you are both responding to each other, you are asking if your new rat understands you and he's likely wondering the same thing... You don't want to screw it up and neither does he. But keep in mind you know a whole lot more about what's going on than he does, he doesn't know where he is and he doesn't even know how long he's going to be with you or if you are going to take him back to his former home. This is a very stressful time for Alfie, he needs you to comfort him and show him you are his friend. 

Just keep in mind he's really smart, he's trying to understand you and he'll get it really fast. In fact, I'd say things are going really well so far. 

As to not taking treats, this is also pretty common, if you think about it rats bond most naturally with each other and rats almost never share their food... Feeding each other treats isn't really part of rat bonding... somehow I've always thought that rats think we're suckers for sharing our food and that they slink off with their treats before we come to our senses and take the food away again... In any case, your his friend and not a vending machine, the physical bonds of touching and grooming and play are the best measures of success during immersion. Once you build trust and mutual affection, your new rat will have plenty opportunity to rob you blind or seduce treats from you...

Nice work, it sounds like you are well on your way towards a beautiful friendship...


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## ilovescience

Is there a difference between fear biting and aggressive biting?

My girls have *never* bitten hard enough to draw blood, despite *what* I do to them.. be it rudely awakening and pulling them out of their hammock for medication twice a day, restraining and sticking a syringe full of medication in their mouth, grabbing them by their scruff (by the vet tech), smothering them with kisses, etc etc.

But yesterday, I tried to take my new rat out of his cage to wipe his feet, since he stepped all over his poo. I havent had a problem taking him out before, when I had to clip his nails (which were so long they were curved around and made him walk funny). But yesterday, he lunged at the fleshy part of my palm, right under my thumb. At first, I just thought, "oh dear, he's bitten me." But then he bit down harder and tugged, at which point I heard a sickening crunch and a ripping sound. I started to panic because he was NOT letting go, and I stuck my other hand in the cage to stop him. He turned and bit a finger from that hand - just as deep, but fortunately, it was a quick bite. I genuinely believe that if I hadn't stuck my other hand in there, he would've tore out a chunk of flesh from my hand, necessitating a trip to the hospital. 

I was a bit stunned, to be honest.. I thought rat bites would've been more like a striking bite - with possibly multiple bites, but short bites. This bite reminded me of a dog bite, where they chomp down, don't let go, and start tugging.

As I sat there, literally dripping blood from both hands onto the floor and whatever was in front of me, I just wondered, "How in the world is someone supposed to go through immersion with an aggressive, biting rat without bleeding all over the rat and everything else??"

This morning, when I stuck my hand into the cage to clean up some poo, he gave me kisses, as if yesterday never happened. -_-

So I'm confused if that was a defensive move or if it was an aggressive move? Would the style of biting differ?

Just FYI: I've only had him for 2 days. He's scheduled to be neutered tomorrow, which was planned in advance, so that he could live in the CN with my girls.. I'm hoping that if yesterday *was* some sort of aggressive act, neutering might help in that department, too..


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## nanashi7

The difference is in how you fix the problem. Immersion is more for aggressive than fear biting. Fear biting needs patience and love, and can be unpredictable. You don't want to overwhelm a fearful rat. Do long loving immersion of cuddles, and try to build the trust you have with the others.


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## Rat Daddy

Lots of good questions...


Yes there's certainly a difference between fear and aggression. Mostly a rat will try to withdraw from you first if it's biting out of fear while an aggressive rat will attack you head on. As to the nature of the actual bite, it's more a genetic thing I believe. Most rats that have been the result of long lines of domestication tend to bite once, pierce and let go... my part wild rat would bite, tear, twist and bite again as fast as she could to create the most possible damage and blood loss she could inflict as fast as she could... Don't get me wrong, she was a lovely rat and very well natured, but she shredded my neighbor's hand so fast and fiercely his blood soaked a white bath towel until it was evenly red. I might add he was special forces just back from Iraq at the time. He was about 24 and had pretty quick reflexes... He was way too tough to go to the emergency room and explain to a doctor a half pound rat did that to him... I might add that that was defensive biting. Being part wild, her defensive strategy was to do as much damage as possible to her attacker then escape while whatever attacked her licked it's wounds. Wild rats may not be able to kill large animals, but they can sure make it very clear that they aren't to be fooled with. During playfighting she always jumped at my face, even when she was only mock biting. So the style of biting depends pretty much on how many wild genes your rat has in his genetic soup, not so much on whether the biting is aggressive or defensive. Again, a wild or part wild rat can be a friendly and a very gentle one owner rat... they tend to distrust strangers... just keep in mind, if it ever goes ballistic expect a body count.


Sometimes in close quarters it's hard to tell defensive from aggressive biting, that's where the immersion area is much better for a diagnosis. Here the rat has a chance to withdraw and run away and you have time and space to build trust and approach it with some degree of caution or let it approach you. In other words with a fearful rat you can engage it without cornering or terrorizing it and it gives you a bit of running room if you do overstep a little. You can evaluate it's behavior because it has room to behave.


In immersion a truly aggressive rat will attack you, it's fighting for status or control and it's an exercise of power... this is actually very rare, but it's where extreme immersion comes into being. In this kind of a combat situation where coats, work boots, towels, oven mitts and welding gloves come into play. You still don't attack your rat, but you just defend yourself aggressively until the rat gets you are not his chew toy. Once he gets that you are bigger, stronger and more persistent he will usually back down and fall into a social role in keeping with you being in charge. After the combat is over a formerly aggressive rat can become a very best furry friend. Your the boss and he's your number two.


It's hard to diagnose a rat you have only had for two days based on an in cage interaction. Whereas it would be a good idea to take safety measures into the immersion area with you, I can't say for sure you will need them. 


There are many reasons a rat can be aggressive or fearful. Mistreatment, neglect, abuse, poor eyesight, illness, brain tumors or likely any reason a human might become aggressive or fearful. Both immersion and neutering can be effective with status driven hormonal aggression in male rats. I'm not aware of any correlation between neutering and any other kind of biting. Extreme immersion helps break the hormonal bio-feedback loop that causes hormonal aggression as does neutering... Normal immersion can help to form a better bond and relationship that will help with other kinds of behavioral issues.

As mentioned above when you are dealing with a fearful rat, it can take a lot of patience to work through the rats trust and fear issues. Usually some other human has already screwed up your rat for you, which makes it so much harder to develop a real relationship... once burned twice shy, true of humans and rats.

Sorry for my late reply, I've been dealing with a very sick rat of my own.

Best luck.


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## Rhonwen

First off - thank you Rat Daddy for being such a fixture on this thread for so long now. And my sympathies for what you're going through with Max now (I think it's Max, my apologies if not). 

I've spent at least an hour with Alfie every night this week trying different things, figuring out what he likes best. Exploring the bathroom - not his thing. Hanging out in my lap - better! Hanging out in the hood of the sweatshirt I bought to wear just for him... BEST! My goodness he went from being pretty reserved to being one happy little guy. I pulled him out of his cage tonight with some minor tail "helicopter-ing" and cuddled him to my chest. He promptly started sniffing, crawling around my front and soon enough made his way to my shoulder... And my goodness, you would think he found a pile of candy or cookies when he saw the hood. It took him zero seconds flat to check it out. He circled a couple times, settled in, I think he did some preening, hard to tell by just feel. And then he started bruxing. Proud momma right here folks! I wandered around the house for a bit, then sat down at the computer. A few minutes later, he came out, pee-ed on my chest, and went back to the hood. I couldn't decide whether to be annoyed that I just got pee-ed on (and this was no marking, this was full out - I have to pee, so I'm going to), or amused that he actually came out of the hood to do so. I can't fault him - I wouldn't want to pee where I was hanging out and relaxing either. 

Tonight I also got his Feisty Ferret cage set back up, at least the top half. It surprised me how obviously happy he was back in a familiar space, he checked everything out, ran around the cage a few times, and then disappeared into the temporary hidey-hole I have for him now.


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## Rat Daddy

Rhonwen, Thank you, I'm doing everything I can to keep Max comfortable and near me and where there is life there's always hope... in her case... just not very much of either likely left. With every bouncy baby rat comes the promise of sadness some day. I nursed her with an eyedropper when she was a two week old pup and took her under my covers to keep her warm... I suppose we've come full circle. Max is a great rat. I like to say that, because it's both true and still in the present tense. 

It's funny how immersion seems so complicated and perhaps a little bit daunting or confusing going in and when it's over it all feels so good and natural. You just can't help yourself but feel proud of yourself and your new best furry friend. You've made the connection, you understand each other on a very fundamental level and going forward almost anything is possible. I suppose I was lucky to know the real live Fuzzy Rat. She was truly remarkable, she insisted on being understood and kept reaching out to me until I got it... I wasn't an easy convert. Like most humans I didn't understand that she really wanted to bond with her family or that simple communication and understanding were possible... I mean let's be honest... she looked like a small animal. Imagine my surprise when I finally got that she was capable of a genuine emotional bond with us... and yes it's the same bond you are building with Alfie. 

I can't imagine a rat owner or a rat that should ever miss out on one of the greatest friendships of a lifetime. And even now with my own dear friend Max so sick, your experience brings a bit of brightness to a dark time... I still enjoy reading all of the success stories and perhaps playing a little part in people's immersion experience... It's always a happy time for me to do immersion with a new rat and gratifying when folks share their own experiences with me...

Best luck to you and Alfie.


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## toripadams

Hi, recently one of two of my rats died and i am soon getting two rescue rats from a breeder. i definitely want to do immersion but the breeder described the two girls, rue and lilly, as fearful. they'll take treats but wont tolerate being picked up or pet. i was wondering if you could go into more detail in how to immerse a fearful rat. like if shes cowering in the corner what do i do? is there signs to look for if shes to overwhelmed?. how much is too stressful? they had a hard life and i don't want to cause anymore damage. sorry if this question has already been asked and answered this thread is huge.any advice would be appreciated.
thanks


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## Rat Daddy

I suppose you're going to have to get your new rats settled in to the immersion area and diagnose the situation for yourself. I'm sort of surprised that breeder rats should be so frightened or fearful, usually breeders work with their pups to pre-socialize them. I might add that some really fearful rats are actually screwed up rats and are best adopted by very experienced rat owners... they can be a bit of work.

Pretty much I'd start by engaging the new rats and see how they respond. I start this way with any rat... With the rare exception of aggressive rats, you are working on building a friendship. Let them explore a bit and try and get their attention and be playful or friendly as best as you can... The truly terrified rats that hide in the far corner and bite to defend themselves usually have been mistreated which makes your work much more difficult... not only to build trust but to undo what someone else has done.... Basically you offer treats and skritches and talk softly try to be as engaging as possible and work them towards you... Don't push them to the point of biting to defend themselves. Stress is normal, but it's not all bad because without some element of stress rats nor humans change anything and we want change in your relationship.

Certainly biting is a really bad sign when working with a very frightened rat, as is curling up in terror, but mostly you have to play it by ear... engage, let them respond and then try to reply appropriately. Rats that have been mistreated and are terrified of humans can take a very long time to bond with, you can't push as hard as with normal rats... take lots of short breaks, offer lots of treats, keep engaging and back down if you see you are pushing too far...

When my dad taught me auto mechanics he would tell me to tighten a bolt tight but not to strip it... I suppose I might have over tightened a bolt or two but for the most part I figured out what tight was by feel. You want to get your new rats to become interested in you without terrorizing them... It's something that's hard to put into words... like tight but not too tight... Settle in on the floor with your rats and see how things go and then play it by ear... If things really start going sideways stop and let us know what happened so maybe we can help you reply to what your rats are doing appropriately....

Again, I'm a bit concerned that a breeder is telling you these rats are fearful... My breeder raises mostly snake food and he guarantees all of his rats have a sweet disposition.... And to be honest, we carried the last rat we got from him down main street without a cage and stopped to introduce her to passers by who had never seen anyone carrying a rat around before... Yes she was a bit shy on the car ride home, but she was romping around the house with my daughter within hours of being home with us... She was our first breeder rat, even if the guy was more of a BYB than an "ethical breeder" and it was a real pleasure to work with a rat that had been handled before. I would meet the girls before making any decisions... but there's something really wrong when a breeder warns you that the rats they are adopting to you won't tolerate being picked up... that's a big red flag.

Immersion and extreme immersion will fix most rats from terrified rats to aggressive rats but both ends of the spectrum require a lot of work. There are a few rat owners that enjoy the challenge of fixing problem rats and some are rather good at it. I can fix rats lots of other people shouldn't play with... but to be honest I prefer starting out with happy well adjusted rats and teaching them to be highly competent true shoulder rats more than getting a screwed up rat to stop biting me and to tolerate being handled and perhaps eventually work out most of the kinks... Screwed up rats can become wonderful friends, but few ever get entirely right... like very few abused children ever get 100% well. If you feel you can't handle the new girls when you meet them, you might want to consider other options.


Best luck


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## toripadams

Thank you for the advice ill definitely put it to good use. the rats were actually rescued by the breeder after being in a bad situation with another breeder, overcrowded cages and stuff like that. the breeder i was getting them from says shes tried to work with them everyday and they've come far but they need a lot of one on one time and because this breeder has other rats of her own and other rescue rats she wasn't able to give that to them. she really is a great breeder and cares a lot about her rats temperament health etc. I'm going to meet them soon so hopefully i can feel out how bad the situation is then. my two rats used to be pretty cautious and scared coming from a pet store but became my best friends and really great rats. hopefully this works out just as well. thanks again


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## Rat Daddy

Your welcome, I don't ever want to discourage anyone from adopting a rat. On the other hand good rat breeders know what they are doing better than most rat owners and I suppose I've seen too many people in over their heads with rats they can't handle, usually rats that someone else neglected or screwed up. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I'm pretty good at fixing screwed up rats, so you wouldn't want to take on a rat I couldn't fix unless you are up for a real challenge. Pet shop rats are generally neglected, but they have been with other rats and are usually pretty young. Neglected means unsocialized, but also generally not abused. Rats that have been in other homes before may have been mistreated or even abused. A really good rat rescue works to evaluate and fix the rats before finding them forever homes.

Now I know someone who is a good rat rehabilitator is reading this, and they are likely chomping at the bit for a good challenge. There is a tiny group of individuals that think of extreme immersion as a sport and one person wrote me he doesn't mind getting bitten and refuses to wear gloves... Some of these folks have gotten fabulous results in record times. They save rats that no one else wants. But don't be fooled, these are special people who have developed special skills... like special forces soldiars. Most people would rather not be para-dropped behind enemy lines, swim 5 miles to a beach and have a firefight with live ammo before breakfast. Most people are far better off adopting friendly rats that are easy to immerse and bond with. 

Keep your needs in mind when you meet these girls. Your natural instinct will be to help them and you will be tempted to take them home. If you get the feeling that these girls are going to be a problem they will most likely be better off where they are and you might want to talk to the breeder about adopting a pair of rats she bred for temperament and raised loving humans. Again if you think a challenge is a good thing, and you feel ready for it don't let me discourage you. Meet the girls, spend some time with them, talk to the breeder and don't commit to anything until you are sure you can work with these girls. I very much want them to go to a good home, but the world is full of rats that need a good home and you can only adopt so many of them. The trick to being successful is to take on challenges you can handle. 

When we go to adopt a new rat, we pass by lots of rats that need good homes, most of our rats came from feeder bins, so for every rat we took home we passed on dozens we didn't... I always felt sorry for the rats that we left behind. But if I was going to give only one rat a chance at a wonderful life, I tried my hardest to pick the best of the best to start with. I'm always tempted by the runt or one that is obviously in need of special attention but if I pick her, the healthy, smart and friendly rat is going to be fed to a snake... I know I'm going to feel guilty either way... so I try and pick the most friendly and active one. I'll always wonder about the rats I left behind with a certain amount of regret, but then when I think about the wonderful rats we have had and have, I'm glad we chose them. 

Adopting the right rat is best for the right rat and it's best for you. Adopting the wrong rat often ends in heartbreak. I do hope these girls are right for you, but choose wisely.


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## toripadams

Thank you. I feel a lot more prepared going into this now. Your a seriously amazing rat owner. Hopefully everything works out for the best


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## RatWhisperer

Hi there,

First i wanted to thank everyone involved in this thread and esspecially Rat Daddy.
Because i read it, i believe i had no problems with my two lovely rat ladies which were free ranging almost all of the time when someone was at home.
Unfortunately one of my girls died of cancer, i decided to get a new cagemate for my other rat.
Because the rat we had is two years old we decided we would get one that was similar age. There was an opportunity to adopt a 1.5 year old female rat from a laboratory rescue. The rat was used for behavioral experiments but was said to be friendly to humans. That may have been the case, which it no longer is....
Once we picked up the rat the poor thing was petrified. I started to handle the rat from the beggining i got it, it was either too scared to bite then or it felt no need to. I along with my fiance tried to stay proactive and engage the rat for the whole drive back home.
Here's where my lack of "negative" experience with rat territorial aggression kicks in... 
Once we got home i thought it was a good idea to get the girls to know each other so i let my old lady sniff the newcomer.
She puffed up like a squirrel , performed a quick "war-dance", and in mere seconds bit the new girl on the rump leaving a nasty open wound.
A great idea it was indeed... After one week i am now struggling with a petrified biting rat, who already did one visit to the vet resulting in anesthesia and cleaning of the wound. The wound is healing well and right now is the least problem of this new rat of mine. Until today (day 8 )she was only trying to bite me while i was messing around inside her cage, she got a tender slap immediately after the nip on the glove . When i was working with her outside of her new cage, she was petrified even more but mostly considered me as a better alternative and "hiding place" rather than explore the surroundings. I did about one to two hours per day with her outside the cage and thought i made some good progress. Today i had a lot of more time on my hands so i decided to do a long session, it resulted in about 3 hours of her trembling on my knees with me speaking in a soothing voice and petting her. Although she still trembled she hid in my arms, drank a little , ate a little, preened herself, all this while sitting on my knees so i really started to believe in big progress. After that i got her in her cage, and while giving her food without wearing a glove she went for my finger and chomped down hard. This did not look like giving "afraid" bites anymore, it was definetly a way of saying - stay out of this cage, so i just opened the cage up and literally fought her... After much squeaking and after she stopped trying to bite me and hid i just grabbed her and took her out again and sat for another 3 hours at the pc with her on my knees covered in a blanket and calming down. After i tried to handle her on my knees i think she wanted to go for my hand again but i just pulled it away soon enough, she started to run away (both biting and running away for the first time outside of the cage). I grabbed her and put her in the cage again. The situation is going to get worse and worse every day so i ask for your assistance, moreso because i again will not have a lot of time on my hands in the next days. In the cage the rat is hiding from me again, which was not the case earlier this day.


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## Rat Daddy

Wow, you really picked a challenge. Way back when I was a psych major, the lab rats were intentionally isolated from other rats and human contact was intentionally limited so that the rats didn't accidentally learn something that might screw up the experiment. 

Imagine raising a human child in a box until it was an adult and then doing some behavioral tests on him or her. No wonder the behavior mod folks go so many things wrong when it comes to actual rat socialization... they were intentionally working with unsocialized rats.

First I want to say that a friend of mine adopted her lab rat and he was a real sweetheart despite his upbringing, so not all lab rats are screwed up.

That leaves us with one of those that most likely is... Likely no rat communication skills and all of her human experience was most likely bad. Like other lab rats I've seen she's cage defensive, terrified of being out of a cage and bites, mostly out of fear, but sometimes to defend her territory. She sees you as something very different from herself and has no concept of human friendship and compassion, and she really has no skills at dealing with other rats.

So, I'd forget about intros and I wouldn't put my hands in the cage when she's in it for now. And thick gloves are a must, that's most likely the only way she's ever been handled.

This rat will require long sessions, with treats and infinite patience. There is no quick fix, but a breakthrough is possible at any time, just not likely. Once you can come to some basic understanding outside the cage, you can work on inside the cage and eventually to intros. 

It's OK to discourage biting when she's outside the cage, and eventually inside the cage, yes it's going to make her more scared, but you really can't work with a biting rat. You have to take a little risk at a setback to move forward, again don't attack her... just make sure she knows you aren't a chew toy. And really you can't back slide too far from where you are.

Honestly, I hate when rescues adopt out animals like these, they give rescue rats a bad reputation. You have very possibly adopted a rat that's practically been raised to be or driven to be anti-social on purpose, then trained to do some trick or even avoid electric shocks. People reading along should really avoid x-lab rats or at least x-lab rats that aren't people friendly. Being terrified when you meet them is a bad sign and it tells you the rescue hasn't worked with the rat enough. 

If it's an albino, it might also have vision issues, so it might be even more fearful, because of it's bad eyesight.

Thick gloves... lots of patience and lots of time and treats, that's where you start to socialize your new rat. As it most likely hasn't ever lived with other rats, it's going to have trouble with rat intros too. Not understanding how the game is played puts her at a disadvantage. But that's a bridge for another day. In the interim, expect your rat to have some wild behavior and mood swings as she tries to figure out what's going on. She's about as clueless about being a pet rat as you would be if dropped into a wild baboon troop in Africa.

I'm not suggesting she's a bad rat that can't be fixed, just trying to give you a heads up for what to expect. Some of these rats do come around pretty quickly, others are every bit the challenge.

Best luck.


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## Rat Daddy

Sometimes, in focusing on the problems of a particular case, I tend to overlook it's brighter points, which after a few hours reflection, I suppose I have. I suppose that there is something inherently good and perhaps a bit heroic about a person who would rescue a lab animal, especially knowing the kind of commitment it takes. I think, I might be overly quick to recommend against taking this kind of risk, when it's exactly what some really fine people are looking to do. 

With all of the really friendly homeless rats out there, I'm not sure I can bring myself to recommend that the average rat owner undertake a project like an x-lab rat, but I suppose I also should add that I'm kind of proud of the members of our little fraternity that do.

It's a really fine thing to adopt any animal in need of a home and a particularly noble one to adopt one that's troubled. If anyone is up for the challenges involved, please don't let me discourage you, we're here to help.

Again best luck.


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## Rat Daddy

*The Blanket Corollary for Generally Fearful Rats*

So, It's been a while since I added anything useful to this thread, which doesn't mean that I'm not still working with our rats to improve my own techniques, but rather I prefer to respond to the actual issues raised by people who are having problems with their rats. 

But over the course of time, one of the nagging questions that occasionally turns up is regarding fearful or even terrified rats. Personally, I don't see this problem that often, as we tend to try and adopt friendly outgoing rats where possible. This makes immersion kind of a fun activity and more of a play session than anything else for us. 

It really isn't a cheat to choose a rat that is likely to be friendly and easy to socialize. Friendly, sweet rats need good forever homes too. And to be entirely honest some of the sweetest most charming rats you first meet are also going to become some of the best heart rats you'll ever share your life with. Socializing a gentle and charismatic little fur ball often turns into a matter of making a good rat into a great friend. In fact for anyone new to rats, this is the absolutely perfect place to start out at. 

I realize that I originally introduced immersion or rather it's extreme variant to fix screwed up and aggressively biting rats and we have had great success there and immersion has become the golden standard non-surgical approach to fix serious problem rats. Most of the people that fought their way through extreme immersions report that they have built wonderful and lasting relationships with their former nightmare rats. But to be perfectly clear, you don't need to adopt a monster and battle your way through to establishing social order to get to the really good part of building a bond through communication and play if you start out with the right rats and stay hands on with them as their parent or leader, I'm trying to avoid the use of the term alpha as so many people seem to have so much trouble with the term.

So we just adopted Misty, the breeder told us he had some pups coming up at about 3 weeks old, so we waited a bit over a week and arranged a meeting where he produced a batch of pups that were scarcely over an inch and a half long and barely more body than head... but he promised that they were eating some solid foods and in fact once we got Misty home, she really was good to go.... just ridiculously small for her age. Our first week was great, she loved to run around and play fight. She's actually a very fierce little combatant and she'll lay dozens of mock bites on each finger in rapid succession and even charge my face when I'm laying down, then she would just start licking us and fall asleep on us mid-combat. This was as good as it gets for adopting a very small pup. And she's growing like a weed, better than tripling her size in the first two weeks pf having her.

Then after having her for a week things suddenly went sideways. We were already starting to take her outside and starting to let her explore the floor when she apparently had the dreadful realization that she was in fact a very tiny rat in a great big world. And that seemed to terrify her. On the up side, we're not talking about outright mindless panic, but high stress fear none the less. This is a real setback if not a nightmare scenario for a shoulder rat trainer. She would hide under my sweatshirt and refuse to come out and would run for places to hide as soon as I tried to engage her out in any open space. Clearly she wasn't afraid of us, but she was afraid of *everything* else.

Few rats can become true shoulder rats, and I don't hold it against those that can't. They are going to have a great indoor life with us too. And they are still going to get to go to the safe site and have modest adventures suitable to their abilities, but they won't have the grand adventures that only a top notch true shoulder rat can.... In any event, Misty still hadn't washed out of the program and no matter which way her training goes, socialization and training has to continue. So I covered my bed with beach towels and brought her under the down comforter, which is thick and dark and she instantly reverted to her former combative self. She ran around attacking me with reckless abandon then kissing and snuggling and then passing out and napping with me just like she did before. When I tried to move the covers, she tunneled her way back under or under my clothes. This has gone on for a week now and around 7 AM this morning after spending most of the night under my shirt she started to come out and we had a rather lengthy play fight above the covers and she rode around on my shoulder rather than under my shirt... It's taken a week but she's definitely showing progress again. This afternoon she actually jumped from my bed to her cage and went back into it herself. That would have been unthinkable just two days ago.

I'm telling this story to illustrate the point to follow...

Most people who bring home fearful rats are likely to conclude that their new rats are afraid of them, which most certainly may not be the case at all. Your new rats may be terrified of their new surroundings or of well lit wide open spaces in general. Your new rat may be hiding in the corner or under the toilet because they are afraid of being exposed out in the open. While they may not exactly trust you yet, their fear reaction may have a lot more to do with the immersion area itself than it has to do with you. So, I'm going to suggest my particular technique to help as follows:

The first part of any immersion is to diagnose the rat you are working with... Naturally if your rat is combative and attacking you head on, you aren't dealing with a fearful rat. This rat has social status issues and is challenging you... You definitely don't want to be under the same dark blanket with this rat. You are going to get bitten. If your rat is a little hesitant but otherwise seems OK with exploring the area and lets you engage him or her, just be playful and engaging and work the immersion formula normally. But if you find yourself with a rat that's hiding in some dark corner in terror, bring in a blanket and cover yourself with it and try and bring your new rat into the makeshift shelter with you. You might just find out that your rat is more than happy to be sheltering with you and that he or she will become playful when the issue of rat agoraphobia is addressed. Communicating that you are a friend and shelter in the storm is not a bad place to start your relationship. 

Under the covers, you can be engaging and playful and perhaps even offer treats, try not to squash your new rat when you move and still take it a bit slow as your rat might still be a bit afraid of you... Don't be discouraged, fearful rats rarely take treats, but they will still respond to gentle touch and soft tones coming from you. 

So lets break it down... you take your rat to the immersion area and you engage him or her. He responds by running away and hiding. communicating that he or she is afraid. You, reply as reassuringly as possible trying to maintain contact, offering gentle touch, soft vocalizations and treats, but your rat keeps replying that he or she is in apparent distress. When you see that progress has stopped and things are going sideways, try to introduce a thick blanket and let it form creases your rat is going to see and is likely to hide under with you. Don't be too rough, as to frighten your new rat into biting you. Be gentle and try and let your rat find you under the covers, then patiently keep engaging him or her to move things along. Remember, rats are designed to function in complete darkness and in small spaces, they are less likely to be afraid under the covers than out in the open. 

I've used this technique mostly on very young pups... as I'm doing now, so I use my bed rather than the floor... Most pups from two to five weeks old will respond very well to undercover play and hopefully outgrow their agoraphobia. By the time pups are over six weeks old, I can usually tell their personality and don't adopt fearful rats, so I haven't tried this with older rats myself, but the theory seems sound, so I think it's worth giving a try. I might add that when rats are really sick or dying they also appreciate being brought under the covers to snuggle with you. It's a warm and reassuring place for them to be. Most of our trained true shoulder rat girls really won't stay put under the covers. They aren't afraid of exploring and will have little patience for the delay in getting onto the floor and off on an adventure. 

And lastly, I'd like to remind anyone considering this approach, not to do this with rats that are aggressive or biting. In the dark, rats have a serious advantage over you and things can get bad, very quickly with the wrong rat.

Now, I know some folks here may be thinking about dimming the lights in the immersion area or creatively morphing this approach to suit your individual rats needs and honestly I encourage people to try it. I wrote immersion to be a guide rather than a cook book. Some of the ingenious morphs some folks have come up with in the past have really improved the process with certain rats. So don't be afraid to be a little bit creative.

Remember, immersion is all about bidirectional communication. Engage, let your rat respond and then reply appropriately, then rinse and repeat. You are building trust through understanding. The blanket corollary isn't likely to be the right one for most rats, but it's another technique in the immersion big bag of tricks you can try when things aren't moving along as quickly as you might like and it's something that might help for those fearful rats that seem to take forever to get through to.

Best luck and most of all have fun!


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## YellowSpork

Hey RatDaddy,

I am about to embark on an adventure to try and immerse a feral rat who has been foraging on his own for the last year in the back room of my workplace (a pet store). He escaped before I started working there and they just now got around to catching him with a live trap because he annoyed the owner badly enough by destroying some extra shelving  He is very curious and will take treats from me in his cage, but that's about as far as I've been able to get with him so far because I wanted to wait to bring him home until I had a whole day off so I could devote it all to immersion  It will be the first time I have officially used this technique, but I feel after reading about 14 pages of this thread (so far!) I know the basics of what to expect. And I unofficially did this with my current boy, Boo Radley, who I plucked out of the feeder bin and started carrying around on my shoulder at work when he was three weeks old. And 9 months later he's still there every day. XD

I do, however, have a question... today when I stuck my hand in his cage and let him sniff me, he bit me. It wasn't a terrible bite but I bled a small amount. If he does end up acting aggressively at first during immersion, what is the best way to let him know it's not an acceptable behavior and to stop? Bop him on the head? Say "No!"? I hadn't been able to find any specifics about that anywhere, or maybe I had missed it. Though I'm not convinced he was acting aggressively; he munched and ran into his hide so I think he was just scared as he has Ruby eyes and I smelled of other rats.  But, I would like to be prepared just in case! And also in case he bites out of fear again. <_<

Thank you so much in advance! This thread is really wonderful and I've heard great things about immersion!


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## Rat Daddy

You are of course welcome. It's been a really unique privilege to help so many rat owners find better ways to build loving relationships with their furry friends.

I've commented on your new thread where apparently your immersion has taken the more extreme route due to the biting issue and at the last reading it seemed like you were making some pretty good progress. Naturally, working with a rat that's never been socialized and has lived by his wits for a year isn't going to be easy, but I'm really delighted to see you working your way through the process. Fixing problem rats is never easy, you have to have a really big heart to take on the challenge.

In general...

Biting out of fear or aggression are actually two different things. I realize that some philosopher might see everything anyone does as motivated by fear, but there is a distinction. A fearful rat is reacting without control, it's a matter of panic and in that state oi mind there isn't anything he are going to learn or anything you are going to teach him. Calming panicked rats down and giving them space and trying to keep them feeling as sheltered as possible until they gather their senses is your priority. Naturally this can extend your immersion session(s). 

An aggressively biting rat is in control of his faculties, he's acting with intent and in an effort to communicate to you or control his environment. This is a rat that can learn and be taught better ways of communicating and the proper social order in your household.

So assuming your rat is of the aggressive biting variety, first of all you want to try and show him attacking you is futile... Thick gloves or oven mitts help... Next you want to discourage his anti-social behavior. Try shouting NO BITING, try a gentle bop or even a swat... You don't want to hurt your rat! You just want him to learn that biting doesn't work at getting him what he wants and the it gets him a swift and unpleasant reply. 

Immersion is communication... You engage... lets say by offering him a treat... he responds by attacking your hand and you reply with a shout and maybe a gently bop... until the pattern of communication improves. You engage by offering a treat, he responds by taking it gently and you reply with another treat, lots of complements and if you can, a gentle skritch. So he gets that he will better control his situation by being gentle and friendly. You are never beating a rat into submission, you are showing him a better means of communication that gets him better results. Once you get through the biting phase, then you move into normal friendly immersion and build your relationship. 

I also might add that rats are social animals, and they understand social status and order. They expect someone to be in charge and they know it might not be them. Although rat social order isn't like military discipline, the 'alpha rat' doesn't get picked on. He doesn't get to run around giving commands, but he gets respect and generally leads while the other pack or family members tend to follow his lead. Unlike certain primate societies, rat alphas can sometimes maintain their status long after they aren't the fastest, biggest or the strongest rats. Really good alphas don't seem to get challenged. Rats like social order and they like good leaders... Part of dealing with an aggressively biting rat might include establishing yourself as the group parent or 'alpha'. Don't think of this role as being an alpha wolf or Sargent Major think about is as being a good mom or dad, you encourage your rats and your children to grow and become more competent while keeping them safe and setting the reasonable rules of behavior in the home. You absolutely wouldn't let your kids build a fire on the dining room table or play baseball in the living room, but you might be a little flexible about bedtime on Friday nights... and certain bad behavior might get a stern look and certain bad behavior might require stronger corrective communication. But as a parent you make the call on the fly and always with love in your heart. A gentle bop that stops a rat from biting, so he can live a better life with your family, is more likely to hurt your heart, than him short term and will make his live vastly better in the long run.

Generally every rat pup we have had got yelled at a couple of times and a few got a couple of bops, but overall our rats learn the house rules really fast and I almost never have to even raise my voice with them for any reason. 

I'll keep following your other thread regarding how your immersion is going.

Best luck.


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## 2ratshack

Hi RatDaddy,

I was wondering what your opinion was on doing immersion with a group of 6 rats at once?
I just picked them up yesterday, so I have only done 2 sessions. (One when they got home, and one this evening). They are very sweet boys, but just a bit skittish/nervous around me. Especially in the cage. I ended the first session with everybody bruxing and lounging around near me. I ended the second session with everybody asleep in my lap. I have done my best to communicate with them as clearly as possible. Doing things like when they hop up to me I offer a treat. If they pushed on my leg, I lifted it for them to move around. Lots of scritches, ad reassuring hugs as well. I don't think the number of rats is a problem, seeing as they have already been socialized. I'm assuming that since things are going well with all 6 of them, that it will be fine to continue as I have been. I also plan to do some 1 on 1 sessions, just to get to know them a little better outside of their big group.
Anyways, that's about it. Just wanting an expert opinion on the matter.

Thanks,
-Mariah


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## Rat Daddy

Hi Mariah,

First for those folks that haven't read the entire thread, it's important to note that when you are dealing with rats that bite, immersion is always done one on one. It's too easy to get distracted by multiple rats and thereby needlessly bitten. Although this doesn't apply to your situation, it's important that no one try a group immersion with rats that bite. I might also be hesitant to do a group immersion with rats that come from different places or don't know each other... You really don't need to complicate your immersion by doing introductions at the same time. I'm not saying it won't work... it will just get more complicated if your rats start fighting each other.

Now to your situation... and group immersion with friendly rats that have been together or otherwise don't fight or bite; for the most part, it's up to the person doing them. Some folks are high energy and multitask well. They can play with a group of six rats and keep everyone engaged. I suppose it's like the juggler that can keep 12 balls in the air, when done by the right person, it looks easy. Some folks, on the other hand, are perhaps a bit older or don't multitask well and they really will do best one on one with their new rats, at least to start with. 

To the extent that the rats don't bite and get along, the issue comes down to your personality and ability. If you find yourself engaging one rat while the other five entertain themselves you are missing the point of immersion, if you have them circulating like balls being juggled and everyone is getting engaged by you then by all means go the group route... I suppose if it feels good and fun you are doing it right for you, if you feel yourself getting overwhelmed break it down to something you can handle.

While there have most likely been volumes of literature written on dating, no one can really tell you how a single date will go. There's no cook book recipe. At some point every date takes it's own course. So everyone needs to set up their dates and immersions to suit their personality and the personality of the other person or rat to make things go most smoothly. I may be best working one on one and you may be even better surrounded by a huge group. So what works best for me, might bore you to tears... And yes, I am most likely older and slower than you are and a single high energy active rat can test my limits, much less six... But so many people have had great results with groups, like you are having already, that I would likely say you are already doing what's best for you and your group.

In the end, your mixed rat and human family should all be able to play together and interact as a group. So you are eventually going to get there one way or another, starting out as a group and working with a group might take a little bit longer, but it should have the same results. 

As to one on one sessions later on, that's also a great idea, every rat will have his own personality and sooner or later each will learn to interact with you his own way... one rat may become your heart rat, another might be shy and another may always keep more to himself, there will come a point where you will get to know your new rats as individuals and possibly have very different relationships with each... Not to worry that comes with time, remember immersion is only the beginning, it's how you get the relationship kick started. After that, you build your relationships day by day and they will continue to evolve over the entire lifetime of each rat.

Overall, it sounds like you are doing great. Keep up the good work and congrats on your new rat pack.

Best luck.


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## lost_whisper

Though Sake is a sweetheart and would take food from my hand and even understand some commands, I knew she wasn't properly socialised because she didn't much like being petted and whenever I gave her a treat, she would run to my hoodie and eat it all alone. 
I read the first 4 pages of this thread and sat with her for little more than an hour. At first, all she wanted to do was to run and hide in my clothes, or under the bedsheets, but I insisted her on playing, grabbed her when she hid and said "no, stay here" . Also I gently bopped her nose when she seemed anxious and after 30 minutes I started seeing her preening a lot; I also took her and put her where I wanted her to stay and gave her treats until she started eating them on my lap where I could finally see her!

And then the click moment came. She just curled up between my legs and started to sleep, allowing me to pet her entire body. The best part is that after that, she doesn't hide any more unless it's cold, and she doesn't want to stay away from me for too long and she now bruxes and does that alien thing with her eyes all the time and she's been acting like a tiny and very affectionate dog in general.
Before our little immersion, she would play by herself on my bed after an hour of hiding in my clothes, but now she wants me to engage in her games and investigations, and even wants to play right after I take her from her cage! I noticed that she also points the direction she wants to go when I have her in my hands. And she does something funny with her hands when she wants a treat, she sits on her rear end and moves her hands to her mouth and wiggles her whiskers a bit, it seems she pretends to be chewing ;D

I am so thankful for this, it's like magic. I know Sake took a really little time to adjust but I feel so much improvement, she now trusts me a whole lot and I can see it in the tiny details, like how now she lets me grab her and lift her in the air without getting scared, or lets me roll her to her back so I have access of her belly and she doesn't need to be sleepy so I can pet her. Now I can call her in the middle of her rat business and interrupt her to have a long cuddle session. 
It's almost hard to believe how well this immersion went. I'm definitely going to do it as soon as the new girls arrive this week. 
Thank you Rat Daddy, I think I talked so much about you that my partner will start getting jealous (not true, he agrees that you might be a genius), but you and your daughter are awesome!


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## Rat Daddy

You are most welcome. But I do have to share the credit with the most amazing rat I've ever known.

Fuzzy Rat













__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content








Our inspiration and the rat co-founder of immersion.

I wish you and your rats the same wonder and happiness we shared with Fuzzy Rat and still share with our current best furry friends.


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## CynDaVaz

YellowSpork said:


> Hey RatDaddy,
> 
> I am about to embark on an adventure to try and immerse a feral rat who has been foraging on his own for the last year in the back room of my workplace (a pet store). He escaped before I started working there and they just now got around to catching him with a live trap because he annoyed the owner badly enough by destroying some extra shelving  He is very curious and will take treats from me in his cage, but that's about as far as I've been able to get with him so far because I wanted to wait to bring him home until I had a whole day off so I could devote it all to immersion  It will be the first time I have officially used this technique, but I feel after reading about 14 pages of this thread (so far!) I know the basics of what to expect. And I unofficially did this with my current boy, Boo Radley, who I plucked out of the feeder bin and started carrying around on my shoulder at work when he was three weeks old. And 9 months later he's still there every day. XD
> 
> I do, however, have a question... today when I stuck my hand in his cage and let him sniff me, he bit me. It wasn't a terrible bite but I bled a small amount. If he does end up acting aggressively at first during immersion, what is the best way to let him know it's not an acceptable behavior and to stop? Bop him on the head? Say "No!"? I hadn't been able to find any specifics about that anywhere, or maybe I had missed it. Though I'm not convinced he was acting aggressively; he munched and ran into his hide so I think he was just scared as he has Ruby eyes and I smelled of other rats.  But, I would like to be prepared just in case! And also in case he bites out of fear again. <_<
> 
> Thank you so much in advance! This thread is really wonderful and I've heard great things about immersion!


OH! I saw an article about Boo in the News & Observer. We were going to swing by the store one day to see him!  I still have his picture from the article here in my office - it's on the desk beside me as I type this out. haha! What a funny coincidence that I'd see this post of yours. How's Boo doing, btw?


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## ajack

Hello all!

Just wanted to share my so-far positive experience with immersion, and also to ask Rat Daddy a question?
I got two 8-weekish old females 5 days ago from a breeder who had amazing reviews and promised no-bite rats. One I picked out, Tarzan (she's a dwarf rat if that makes a difference), was curious and came to me out of the cage and seemed fine while in my hands. The other, Cleo (not a dwarf rat), was taken out of the cage by the breeder so I did not see how curious she was, but was totally fine when being held in my hands. When I took them home, however, I realized that they both are incredibly frightened of hands and were obviously hardly handled at all by this breeder. Super disappointing  

For the first 3 days I tried trust training methods and that seemed to be working. My first two immersion sessions were okay, as I struggled to make a stable perimeter in my room and the rats spent most of their time just trying to get over the perimeter. It did seem as though Tarzan was much more comfortable though! Tarzan is naturally more friendly and active, just wants to climb on everything and be up high (it's a perfect name, really). Cleo, on the other hand, is super super timid and during our first two immersion sessions she was either a) desperately desperately doing anything she can to climb the makeshift "wall" of the immersion area, or b) hiding underneath a blanket, anywhere she could hide her face.

However, last night totally changed! Rat Daddy, I have read through literally all 40-something pages of this thread to look for suggestions to help with my super shy Cleo baby. I tried the blanket thing where I would come under the blanket with her, but then I just had this feeling that that wasn't working, so I tossed the blanket out of the immersion area. What happened next was AMAZING. Cleo totally came out of her shell and started actually ENJOYING herself, running around me, pausing underneath my legs or arms, any "secure" area. She loved playing with my hair and even gave me little mouth kisses. It was truly unbelievable. And in this 2.5 hour session Tarzan was even more friendly- she now likes to climb the length of my body while i'm lying down, and is much more comfortable spending time on my shoulder and the top of my head (lol).

There are a few things I want to ask about though: In this great session, 2 times (about a half hour apart) Cleo would just stop playing around/with me and retreat to a corner to put her nose into. Literally, curl her tail underneath her and put herself into a little ball with her face in the corner. It was obvious to me, some sensation was too much for her. Both times I had the idea to make a safe-looking environment while lying on my stomach with my arm making a little "nook" with my hair offering more shelter. The thing is though, I couldn't coax Cleo away from the corner no matter how much I tried or how many minutes I waited. Both times I ended up picking her up (she squirmed a bit) and placing her near this little "nook" I had made with my arm and my hair. And both times she totally felt more comfortable and stayed in this little nook cleaning herself and looking at me/sniffing/kissing me until she wanted to go run around and play around again, coming back to the "nook" repeatedly. My question is: should I have picked her up like that? Did I do the right thing? Any suggestions on what to do next time or what she is thinking?


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## ajack

oh, wanted to add- these babies totally do not bite and do not show any aggressive behavior  so that's one great thing from the breeder!


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## Rat Daddy

It actually sounds like you are doing a great job. Immersion is a guide, not a cook book because once you understand the basic concepts and principles you have to make most of the important calls on the fly. Do you wait, do you go in for a hug and a kiss? It's almost like being on a date... You are trying to guess what the other person or in this case rat is thinking. Usually in both dating and immersion it pays to be a little assertive, but remember to watch for and then correctly respond to the way your rat replies to your advances. It is a matter of feel... test and try again and again... If it felt right to pick her up and she responded well, it was the perfect call, when they don't respond well it's OK to give them a few minutes to rest on their own then entice them back to you... It's an on the fly call... engage, let them respond and then reply appropriately as best you can. With all of my own experience I usually can tell what a rat is thinking, but even I'll admit that with a new rat sometimes I'm as clueless as anyone else and I have to try to figure it out by trying different things to see how she responds.

To address the barrier thing...yes good barriers are really important in immersion, basically you are letting your walls passively control your rats so you don't have to be the disciplinarian. If you have to be constantly chasing your rat and controlling every movement, you are taking away from the playfulness of the experience. Always try and use barriers like walls and doors or something really high and stable so you don't need to be the bad guy that keeps your rats from exploring and having fun... I'm not saying that is your situation, it's just a general comment for other folks reading this guide. Good barriers just make it easier for you to be a friend and a pal.

I think you kind of did a good job of explaining the light bulb moment when your rats get it... and the real purpose of the long session... When rats first start immersion most don't have a clue of what you are, I mean you really don't look or smell much like a rat. They don't know you can think, or feel or understand them and for sure they don't understand you. But the more you interact with them the more they begin to suspect that there just might be a method to your behavior. Then they might test you, and suddenly they realize that you are reacting to them and responding to their behavior... They realize that you are sentient too... I know this sounds strange and most likely they see you like a really giant rat not a human, but still they get it... It really is more than trust, it's a very basic form of communication. Once your rats realize that you are capable of understanding they start interacting with you. Now they actually engage you, observe your reaction and respond to what you do. For me, and most people who practice immersion, this is a wonderful moment, it's when the relationship really begins. Yes it takes time... and patience but it's so worth it.

Apparent setbacks are common mostly because rats have a stress fuse... It's a survival mechanism that keeps rats from getting killed. In working with shoulder rats outdoors, I see it all of the time... When we go out the rats are confident and explore then as time passes their stress level builds for no apparent reason until they will run to us for protection or head for the house door or back to the car. This is quite normal and I've observed it in wild rats and mice too... 

Years ago, we had a mouse living in our college apartment, it was really rather handy because with 4 guys living together it came out every night and picked up the food crumbs from the floor and counters. We didn't chase it and it became used to us. So finally it didn't even wait for us to go to bed and would come out to clean up the popcorn off the floor while we were watching TV. It would come out and forage the carpet calmly and then suddenly bolt back to it's hole like all the bats from Hades were chasing it even when we would sit very quietly just watching. It was like a stop watch started the moment the mouse came out of its hole and when the clock ran out, it had to bolt. Then a few minutes later, once the clock reset, the mouse came back out, totally relaxed again and the process started all over again. I think that in the wild a rat or a mouse that just hangs out out in the open too long is going to get picked off by some predator. So the "stress clock" is designed to keep the rodent from just hanging out and chilling where bad things can happen. It's the way their brain is wired. 

It's nice when the rat runs to you for protection when the stress clock runs out, but don't take it as a failure or offense if the rat runs to a corner or a dark place... It's not a put down on you, it's just normal rat behavior. And girls are more hyper than boys, again that's normal. 

Keep in mind what a rare process immersion is in nature... two species building a family bond and bi-directional communication with each other. And when you think about how different humans and rats appear to be, it's actually quite remarkable. We've come to expect it with dogs and to some degree with other larger pets, but rats are really quite unique in that they are metacognative and build a complex multi-level emotional bond with us. Our rats really do become family members over time and grow into rolls in the household that they assume for themselves. But keep in mind they are in fact rats and there's a whole lot of evolutionary survival programming that's telling them they shouldn't be exposed out in the open too long and that exposing themselves to unseen danger is a very bad idea. Yes, some rats have very long stress timers and can go for a very long time compared to others, but even the most amazing true shoulder rat Fuzzy Rat had a limit. She loved to run away when we were outdoors and go exploring on her own, but she always came back within an hour. I'm guessing that's when her stress alarm went off and she needed to come back to us to reset the clock. Cloud comes out to play with us, but every 10 minutes or so she disappears for about 5 minutes then she comes back out to play some more. Similarly, outdoors she will explore for about 10 minutes and then come back to us or head for the house. She doesn't have the same limit as Fuzzy Rat. Misty can play for much longer, but she runs off too but she seems to be able to reset her stress timer in just a minute or two, so we hardly notice she's gone. To some degree, with work the clock time can be extended and to some degree it's hard wired. A good shoulder rat has a longer trigger time and runs to you when the time comes... a bad one freaks out and panics quickly and bolts off for cover anywhere. In any case this isn't a big issue with indoor rats. Just keep in mind that they are rats and not dogs and sometimes it's normal for rats to act like rats...

You have come a long way. And I think you are doing a great job. Before I introduce immersion folks and rats struggled with other methods that took weeks and sometimes months to build "trust"... Now there are so many reports of nearly instant immersions that a few hours seems like a long time... In fact, I've had rats partially bonded on the long ride home from the breeder and almost always by the end of the first day home, but that wasn't the goal of the program at all. The goal was to build a bond based on communication, usually within hours but sometimes it takes a few days and sometimes a little bit longer depending on the rat or rats you are working with. The most important thing is to enjoy the process and have fun along the way... (and yes, I know there's nothing fun about the beginning of extreme immersion with aggressive biting rats) but even those usually end in rewarding experiences being had by all. 

It's great that you are working with overall friendly rats and to be honest, I don't usually expect much more than that from most breeders, although some are really excellent, they are the minority and even then your rats have to get to know you... so just have fun and do what you are doing, every day you will better understand each other and I think you are well on your way towards a beautiful friendship.

Best luck.


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## ajack

Thank you so much for your insight.

I did another immersion last night, about 1.5 hours, half hour less than usual. Cleo did not put her face in a corner at all! She did do some digging at the carpet, which I read is a sign of boredom. I think it's definitely time for me to put some toys in the immersion area with us. 

Do you have any tips on getting rats comfortable with being picked up? Or coming to when called? I feel like they're so close to being able to free-range in my room which is what I want so I can continue to be semi-productive as well (being in school and all); however, Cleo is the one that makes me nervous in case she gets into one of those moods and goes into a corner where I can't reach her well or find her. And she also sometimes spooks when my hands get too close to her, and definitely isn't fond of me picking her up.


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## Rat Daddy

Building a strong emotional bond with your rats is the first step to everything else. Some rats are and stay reclusive all of their lives while other's are happiest showboating in front of crowds. Each and every rat can become more comfortable with you and with their surroundings in time, but not every rat will turn out the same. As a good parent you work with each rat to bring out their best potential. Just about all of them will learn their names and basic commands, which some will obey while other's might not. Just because a rat knows what you want doesn't mean they will always do it. Also most will become pretty adept at free ranging, it's kind of what wild rats do for a living. The potential is there and no rat is going to get lost or hide until it starves to death.

Expect every rat you work with to be different, some are cheer leaders and other's are goth. Just about all rats get used to being picked up, most will even ask for it, when they want to be taken somewhere. Some rats love to be held and cuddled, others just about never stop their feet from moving when they are awake... Use repetition and treats to convey the meaning of commands and reinforce behaviors you like... use your stern voice to tell rats what you don't like, and mostly they will get it as they learn to understand you. And keep in mind each rat has it's own special personality... No, parent's really don't love their kids the same way even if they love each equally. Be patient, be encouraging take calculated risks to help your rats grow and watch your rats grow their own personality. Remember, it isn't a goal, it's a process. It's like raising kids, you never know who you will wind up with, but most of the fun is making them better and more competent adults. Sometimes you wind up chasing your rats, sometimes they wind up chasing you. Sometimes it's frustrating and sometimes it rewarding beyond words. Just remember that rats are the second most successful species on earth, they are really very smart and emotional little beings. Encourage them and don't limit them and your rats will become amazing too.

Most of all communicate and try to understand them and have faith that your rats will become more than you ever hoped for.


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## Drakmanka

Is it normal for a rat to drool while doing immersion exercises?


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## Rat Daddy

Generally rats only drool when they are overheating. It usually happens right before they go all squishy and pancake. If the temperature in your immersion area is over 82 degrees, it's too hot for your rats. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 82 degrees can kill your rats.


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## Drakmanka

Okay, good to know. I'll make sure the temperature is better-controlled before we do more exercises.


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## Ingy

I know you mentioned immersion when you first get rats, but I wasn't aware of it when I got my boys.. I love them to bits but worry I don't understand them properly and they both dart when I go to pick them up (when I go to pop them back home in the cage) .. I've had them a few weeks now, is immersion a good idea despite the time passed or is it good to do regardless..?Bacardi and Pepper are pet shop babies, and when I got them, the carer didn't know anything about them and said they were 10-12 weeks old.. The vet gave me more info than she did.. Either way, I've had them out on the sofa running around, I can now give them bits of digestive biscuits and Pepper will drink tea from my mug if I have one while he's about and he spends ages licking my face and arms and hands, he spent ages licking my partners forehead the other evening.. But after hearing how close some owners and their rattie babies are, I'm just wondering if immersion would help solidify bonding or if it's just a bit too late now...?


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## Rat Daddy

Immersion evolves into normal play. The same techniques of communication always apply in the immersion area or outside it. The smaller confined space of the immersion area helps to keep you more engaged with your rats without chasing them around. So it's always good to engage your rats then to let them respond to you and then to reply to them appropriately, so they get that you understand them and you work up a genuine relationship. If your rats already enjoy playing with and on you, you don't need to go to a seperate area. But we still lay down on the floor and play with our rats so they can climb on us and run around us. They are girls and prefer this to being held. In fact, our rats wait and watch for us to go to the bathroom where they have us trapped so they can climb all over us when we can't get away. And yes they can climb the radiators and exposed plumbing so nowhere in the bathroom is safe. 

If you find that you are chasing your rats instead of playing and engaging, then move to an immersion area, if your rats are already all over you then just keep engaging them where you are. There are some folks here that carry their rats all around the house and we sometimes play with our true shoulder rats like this:

https://vid.me/SgmU

or this:

https://vid.me/3edL

Or

https://vid.me/BzNQ

Most certainly this goes beyond basic immersion and bonding... but it's simply the continuation of the same theory and practice of communication and building on the same bond you created in a small room. 

Please don't try this with brand new rats... The rat in the lake is the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat... the rat that taught us all the principles of immersion and it took us several weeks before Misty was ready to even come out from under the covers much less play safely outdoors... But you can see how we are working with the same bonds and engagement principles to turn basic immersion techniques into more complex fun activities... And by the way... Fuzzy Rat jumped into the lake on her own and swam out to the kids... She was the only rat we ever had to do that... 

So, it's never too late to apply immersion theory and practice. It's all about developing a mind set for you and your rats that allow you to better understand each other and to build on that relationship to achieve higher goals. No, not all rats can become true shoulder rats, likely most can't... But Fuzzy Rat was a lot more like your rats than you may think and lots of exciting adventures are possible when you have the right relationship to build off of.

Before Fuzzy Rat, I, like most people, didn't really understand just how intelligent rats were and how they could build real relationships with their humans. When I did something she liked, she would give me kisses to reward me... in order to get me to do the things she wanted more often. Fuzzy Rat actually chose her own roommate. She had hundreds of human friends from kids to cops to a chapter of a motor cycle organization. She was welcomed in stores and restaurants. She was actually very charismatic, but it was all about how well she learned to communicate with humans and how well she could express her beautiful personality... 

Because we could understand her and trust her we could give the the opportunity to become truly amazing. Yup, we got to know each other in a small space engaging each other, trying to understand each other trying to get each other to understand us... but that never stopped until the evening that Fuzzy Rat preened my lips for the last time and asked to go back to her cage, she waited for my daughter to say good night and gave her one last kiss... and she quietly slipped away. When we met Fuzzy Rat she asked to be picked up in the feeder bin, the very last thing she said was that she loved us... And all of our relationships with our rats after her have been better because of bonding and understanding... adapt what you have learned in this thread to your situation and things will just keep getting better.

Lastly the reason your rats might run from you is that they don't want to go into their cage and they know it's coming. Don't take that personally... even Fuzzy Rat didn't always want to go into her cage, in fact she never went back to her cage at night without a tasty treat bribe.... ever. As soon as the TV or computer turned off she evaporated and wouldn't come out without smelling the treat in my hand... No treat, no bedtime and if she didn't smell the treat she wasn't coming out... she wasn't going to be fooled... so much for trust. She was actually a very crafty old rat in the end.

Best luck.


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## Ezray

So I haven't been doing immersion in a strict sense due to time constraint's, but I have been trying to spend at least an hour most days with my two girls, and I've been trying to make every interaction a communication, to see it through immersion eyes, as it were! I think we made some good progress last night, so I thought I'd check in here!

I usually get them out in my hallway, which I block off so it's small enough to reach etc. They are now comfortable enough to run around and climb on me, they like to hide under my knees and climb up to my shoulder. Daisy is my sweet girl, and is getting more at ease with being touched, and happily takes herself off for a nap in the corner, where I can stroke her. She also walks out of the cage onto my hand sometimes. Lara is an adventurer, and doesnt like being touched so much, though she's much less scared of movement/noises than Daisy.

I noticed last night that Lara was getting a bit nippy. She was exploring the space, trying to dig the carpet, climb the walls etc, and when I touched her shed nip me gently. I think she was getting annoyed I was bugging her, like she was telling me to go away, she's busy right now. I tried to admonish her each time, maybe bop her gently or squeak at her, bjt she actually seemed to escalate- Once, she nipped me hard enough to break the skin a little. Then Daisy laid down in the corner to nap, and Lara wanted to join her. I tried to stroke them both, but when I tried to touch Lara she started nipping me again. I thought to myself, no, I want her to accept me snuggling them, so I kind of ignored her teeth and wrangled around until I could scratch her belly. Then all of a sudden, she was in bliss! She let me scritch her tummy and her ears, and closed her eyes and snuggled down! So I spent as long as I could fussing them and snuggling with my hands, before I had to take them back to the cage. (And they both wanted to come out straight away!)

I figure that though they might not want to sleep on me, which I my secret wish, I kind of joined in their snuggle with my hands! I've never petted Lara so much, and she seemed so much happier for those few minutes! She's still pretty difficult to pick up, but I think she genuinely just wants to run around all the time instead- she literally sleeps in her wheel, wakes up, runs, sleeps repeat haha!

Here's some wobbly photos of our snuggly moment- Daisy is the bottom rat looking a little wary, and Lara is on top, chilling out!


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## Rat Daddy

Ezray,

I think your photos pretty much show how much progress you are making... With only one hour each day progress is slower, because every day you have to back track a little bit before you make more progress, but you will get there. I don't see any real signs of fear or aggression and although they are in a corner, they seem pretty happy to be with you.

Some rats can be a little bit nippy or pushy, and shouting NO! or a gentle swat or bop will get the message across that you aren't a chew toy, without really breaking up the overall love fest. You want to encourage any interaction, except biting or nipping.

For your more active rats try and be as playful as you can, scoop them, chase them with your hands and get them to chase you... Help them to burn some energy playing with you.

It sounds like you really are doing great, keep up the good work!


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## StonerGirlandHerRatties

One of the most usefully posts on here, well done  x


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## Ezray

Thanks again Rat Daddy for all types advice and encouragement, it's so great for new owners to have somewhere like this to get info! You're right about the slower speed of progress, we definitely spend a while getting warmed up again each time! Still, it's very rewarding, building a relationship with a tiny, independent creature!


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## mis.kay

Not even 15 minutes into immersion and my new boy Cheshire won't leave my side. I got him bruxing and waggling his tail. He was actually seeking out skritches and pets from my hands as you would see a cat do, rubbing his face into my fingers. Also, I already tried typing a response to this and he wouldn't have it! Its absolutely amazing after reading this so many times and actually witnessing communication first hand. I can only type this out now because he has nestled between my legs, he isn't going to sleep, simply laying there relaxed.Now for my other new boy. They are opposites. Though he will run back to me occasionally just to climb on me and get some pets, he mostly keeps his distance. He won't run from me when I reach to pet him but he will walk away if he's had too much. Are these good signs? Should I do an immersion just him and me so I can 'get in his face' as you said?


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## Rat Daddy

It's sort of an odd dynamic that often occurs with two rats, one often becomes more snugly than the other. It might be a pecking order thing, or just a personality thing, I haven't worked it out... But I have seen it and it's usually the more outgoing rat that is most interactive with the humans in the family... I don't want to use the word dominant, because that would be overstating my point.

But yes, a little bit more time together with your more retiring rat will help improve your relationship and you can do it one on one or even together, just keep interacting with him until he understands that you are reaching out to him...

Also remember immersion doesn't end with the formal sessions, it should become the basis of your continued play and interaction... never be afraid to get down onto the floor or at least onto the same level and engage your rats in fun activities, like chase, snuggle or just silliness. And always react to how they respond to you... In between, keep teaching them... their names and commands and gestures and words, some rats can pick up pretty quickly, other's not so much. Language skills vary from rat to rat, but they all get better at understanding you as you will get better at understanding them...

In any event, it sounds like you are making great progress, so just keep up the great work... There's nothing better than building a real bond based on understanding with such a clever and sensitive animal.


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## frenchyy

This thread is really great and I've learned quite a bit just reading a few pages but I'm a bit confused. I don't see anything explaining how to deal with skittish rats. Someone said to read this thread that there is some advise here but maybe they were thinking of another I'm not sure...I'll post again to explain in detail my situation.


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## frenchyy

My first baby boy is Chandler. He's the fatty of the two lol he's a beige Berkshire and he is the alpha. He's more outgoing than the other id say. They are about 5 months old and I've had them for about two weeks now. Anyways as I was saying Chandler is not as shy as Joey but still neither of them like to be touched or pet! When I try nd touch Chandler inside his cage he won't do anything but I don't think he's enjoying it. When he's free roaming on my bed he doesn't stay still enough for me to pet him. He does crawl on me and sniff me and stuff but he does not like being picked up and does not go on my shoulder. I seem to be able to touch him more than the other one who is the most skittish of the two. I feel like Chandler is making a little progress but it's hard to tell :/ on to the next lol Joey is the small one. He's a black and white Broken hooded and he is kind of a scaredy cat lol when I try to touch him in his cage he just stays very still leans a way a bit or he'll push me away with his nose or paw! When he's on my bed and I try he'll flinch and or run away. I barely try to pick him up because if Chandler doesn't like it, Joey likes it even less! :/ again I feel like he's making a little progress but it's hard to tell. What I've been doing is feeding them treats talking to them and interacting with them every day. They also have access to my bed every day. I try to interact with them when they are trotting around on the bed and crawling on my legs and stuff and I try to touch them and pet them quite a bit. Not to the point where I'm over doing it though. I just need to hear people's advise oppionions and thoughts. I don't have any friends or family who have owned rats. Do you think they will ever be used to me? Will they ever sit on my shoulder or on my lap and enjoy me petting them? I need some advise I'm what to do. I'm looking forward to hearing what you all have to say!


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## Rat Daddy

There's a difference between rats that are afraid of you and those who don't like to be handled and those that aren't accustomed to being handled. Mostly rats that haven't spent a lot of time with humans aren't accustomed to being handled and they will get used to it and often learn to enjoy both play and handling. Rats that are afraid of humans will also come around, while some rats just don't seem to prefer a lot of handling. Our current girls will climb up my legs when they want to get picked up, but are more likely to prefer to walk behind or even ahead of me. They prefer to be held by my daughter rather than me but that's who they are. They aren't afraid of being picked up or skittish in the least, they usually just prefer to scurry about under their own power.

I don't much like working with new rats in a cage or on a bed. In a cage you get an odd dynamic, mostly because you don't have much freedom of movement and the rat can feel trapped or cornered, which doesn't give you valid feed back as to what he or she is communicating. I work with small pups on the bed, but when rats get older they usually just jump off the bed and I wind up chasing them so I'm playing prison guard rather than being a playmate. I like to get onto the floor in a smaller space where the rats can free range a bit but not get out of arms reach...

If you are dealing with a really skittish rat, in an immersion area, it will pretty much cower in the far corner from you and not come out... this is definitely a problem that takes time to work through. Often it's caused by neglect, abuse or mistreatment before you adopted your rat. You just have to be very calm and reassuring and try and encourage interaction with gentle touch, a low voice and lots of treats... You both have to go into the corner and engage your frightened rat as well as coax it out to you... Long sessions work best, but they can be boring at first because all of the effort is on your part. Just remember you are huge compared to your rat and if it has been mistreated it may have good cause to be afraid of you.

All rats will become friends, and all rats will become accustomed to being handled. Some will become snuggle buddies, while others will be playful, while still others will become independent and reclusive. Oddly the same rats will often react differently towards different people, but they will all develop their own personalities. Unlike animals of less intelligence rats are learning animals that develop personalities based on their experiences and environment. When I'm watching TV or typing on the PC my rats tend to keep their distance, but if it gets too quiet they turn up and want to play or sometimes just hang out on my desk next to me. Somehow they kind of figured out when I'm busy. If I'm laying down Misty creeps up on me very quietly, if I don't move she slips away, if I respond she jumps on me. I don't think I ever gave them the idea that I don't want to play with our rats, but they have developed rules about when to engage me and when I might want to be left alone. Much of how your rats act towards you is learned, sometimes because you teach them and sometimes they pick up on your subtle body language. 

I think you are doing pretty much OK so far. If your rats don't jump off the bed, and you don't have to chase them around then it's also a good place to do immersion, otherwise you should find a small space with doors and walls to control the action and get on the floor with them. But mostly just get on their level and engage them, even if it can be boring for now... try games like toilet paper tug of war or hand wrestling... but just keep trying to reach out to them and try and schedule a long session or long sessions. After a few hours rats tend to get bored too or at lest get over their fear and then they might be more open to playing with you or snuggling with you. If your rats are really shy, you can even try to bring them under the blankets with you, sometimes the darkness and smaller area gives them more confidence.

Best luck.


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## raindear

When I first got Petey he was about 3 months old and hadn't been handled at all. I am 65 so I blocked off about half a small bathroom and put pillows down to sit on for our sessions. The first couple of immersion sessions I would just pet his head, he would run and stay in a corner frozen. After a few minutes I would pet his head again. I was trying to let him know I wasn't going to hurt him and get past his message that I was a big scary bear. When he was able to let me touch his head without running or trying to bite me, I started to pick him up and set him on my lap. Of course at first he would just run away, but I would wait a few minutes and do it again. We progressed little by little. When he was no longer running away all the time we moved to my chaise and kept getting acquainted.


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## frenchyy

When I first started to do the bed thing I was worried they would fall off but no they are so good they always stay on the bed! I'm glad they aren't scared of me cuz they do crawl on me and come to me but they're just a bit skittish...ok so just keep playing with them and doing what I'm doing and they'll get used to me? Thank u for the advise!


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## Rat Daddy

Remember, you are also working on building communication and understanding... keep using their names and use words and hand signals to try and convey simple messages like "come for a treat" and always observe their reaction to you and watch for simple messages they may be sending you through their body language. At this point communication is pretty rudimentary, but being understood makes both you and your rats feel more comfortable and it will form the basis for competency training later.


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## KatnissRat

Just wanted to say, thank you for posting this guide! Immersion helped me incredibly when I discovered it about a year ago and it just transforms a rat... all my girls went from scared of me to bonded with me in a matter of about an hour. It's really helped me with my bond to my rats, so thank you so much for posting the guide! And I love your tales of Fuzzy Rat and all the other shoulder rats


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## frenchyy

I use their names a lot and I think they are starting to know them already! And when I shake the treat box they know what that means lol they've made a lot of progress in the last few days the outgoing one will stay longer and let me touch him more. The other one hasn't made as much progress but it's still something. I think we're moving forward!


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## Rat Daddy

Frenchyy,

I'm glad to hear you and your furry friends are getting on the same page, sometimes it takes a little time to get started, but never forget your rat's potential is limitless. They really are big smart animals in a small package and they really want to bond with you and become part of your family. They just have to get to know you.

And Katnissrat, you are very welcome. I was blessed to know and live with the real live and truly amazing Fuzzy Rat. She brought wonder and love into the lives of almost everyone she touched. She taught me that rats are intelligent, emotional and communicative animals that can really understand you and that they want to be understood by you... and most of all they thrive best when they are part of your family. I enjoy sharing immersion and her stories, because I think they inspire other people to build a better relationship with their own rats. 

Fuzzy Rat was a very special soul... and I think her legacy burns brightest when other people realize just how special their own rats are. Even though she's no longer with us, I still get a real thrill when someone builds that same special relationship with their new best furry friends. And I'm always gratified to read other people's success stories.


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## rimjet

This is an amazing guide and I wanted to take the time to thank you for writing all of this!

I adopted a rat from my friend's boyfriend. He had 4 rats in a 10gal tank and one of them was being aggressive towards the others and antisocial towards people, so he separated them from his three other girls. I offered to adopt, and after some negotiation, I adopted Lapis. She's 10 months old and very cute. I took her to a vet that keeps rats in his own home and talked to him about her past. He gave her a clean bill of health and also agreed with me that despite her past history of aggression, I should still try to adopt a cagemate for her. So next weekend I'll be going to do that.

Her behavior has improved from when I first got her. At first she ran around her cage, hid from my hands, would do anything to not be picked up. Sometimes she still does run and hide, but she's started to stay still and let me pick her up out of her cage. When she's out, she'll often explore, but come running back to me as a "home base" if something scares her. She's still a scared baby but she's putting herself out there and investigating new things. She'll also take food/treats from my hands which she would not do before at all.

I'm wondering if it's good or bad to take her out of her cage even when she runs away from me. Is it important to assert myself all the time? Or should I let her win and leave her alone if she's really trying to avoid me? Also, she tends to lick my fingers, but she'll bite down pretty hard on my nails. It doesn't hurt, she's only biting the nail and not my fleshy finger. I almost wonder if she's getting confused and thinking it might be a treat? I've been saying "ow" when she does this to discourage biting but it doesn't seem to deter her at all. Should I pull my fingers away when she does this, or should I let her figure out that it's a part of my finger on her own?

Thank you again for all your insight & help.


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## Rat Daddy

I'm glad to hear you've found this guide useful and you are making real progress with Lapis. When you start working with a new rat, you have to be a bit on the assertive side to promote engagement, interaction and of course bonding. As you achieve a relationship of trust and understanding, you have to let go a bit. In fact you really can't teach "come", unless your rat isn't with you at the moment. As you work on your commands you also give your rat more freedom. Actually I should say strong suggestions, as rats don't really do commands... but Lapis knowing what you want will make managing her a lot easier.

And it is typical for girl rats to be intrepid explorers... they have to check out everything and love to build secret nests in your furniture or cabinets... Don't take it too personally. Our girls mug me a few times a day, usually when they want something, then they evaporate into some dark corner to nap for a few hours, then the cycle repeats. Oddly, I have a human daughter that kind of does the same thing...(except she doesn't evaporate into a corner, it's more like her room with her tablet)...? 

Rats tend to chew human nails, it's their way of preening you... If it hurts or she's damaging your nails you can insist she stops with a little "NO Chewing Nails" command and perhaps pushing her away with a little authority... Some rats love to preen us, I've had some that will neatly preen the skin off my lips, and one that actually manicured my fingernails.... I woke up from a nap once to find my rat had very neatly removed the top layers of skin from my forearm... and with it my tan on that arm... Rats have super control of their razor sharp teeth as in not waking me while she was skinning (defoliating) my arm.... 

So as long as it's welcome affection, it's ok if she preens your nails, if it hurts or goes too far, you should stop her before she does any damage...

Best luck with Lapis, it sounds like you have the makings for a beautiful friendship.


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## Binky

I have a question... I started immersion with my new female (probably 10 weeks old) who was interested, yet very timid and nervous, from the start. On our way home I kept her in the box in my lap but with the lid opened and she was interested in me as I was her, thought coward down at pets. She is always letting go and releasing TONS of scared poos on her time out of the cage (which for now has just been her being out on the surface that the cage sits on). 

Now, about 30 minutes into immersion (and she has come around! not squealing anymore when picked up, eating treats which she wouldn't do before) she is beginning to 'test' her teeth on me like a very young pup may do. Is there a reason for this, and any advice? She doesn't bite enough for it to hurt but I don't want to keep letting her taste my fingers and toes if she decides she is going to bite harder.

BTW we are sitting in the bathtub together, just in case that made any difference.


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## Rat Daddy

Nibbling, licking, sniffing and various grooming behaviors are normal social activities between rats and in your case between rat and her new human. I think it would be safe to assume that she know that if she chomps down on you she can hurt you, but she may not know exactly where the line is in humans between social interaction and pain. So if it hurts, flinch, or say Stop, that hurts! or pull back of even give her a very mild smack or push back. This way she will know she hurt you. Most likely she'll crawl right back to you to apologize. But keep it appropriate to the harm she really does to you. A hard bite deserves a strong reaction while a little discomfort only a push and a verbal reminder... Don't terrorize your rat if you haven't really been injured. 

This rule applies to play fighting too. Well and for the most part rats are very good with their teeth and never apply too much pressure, even though they may jump at your fiercely and fight like the devil, it's only a mock fight and you won't get hurt, it's just a game... but if your rat goes overboard or confuses fun for real conflict, (which almost never happens) you react and push back with enough force for your rat to know she hurt you and if it happens twice, with enough force to make sure she knows you don't approve and you aren't a chew toy.

It's kind of like dealing with two year old kids, they love to play and they always want to get their way and for the most part we let them, but then they kick mommy or roll on the store floor screaming when they don't get the toy they want and parents have to step in and correct the social situation. It isn't that parents want to be cruel or harsh, but there's a point between cute and playful and painful and offensive. Sometimes we see moms with out of control kids or dads who are too overbearing, it happens. But most of us are pretty good at knowing where the line is. Good kids can both be respectful and still have lots of fun with their parents. So play along with a little nibbling, but don't put up with anything that hurts you. Basically as in with anything immersion... let your rat respond to you and reply appropriately. 

Happy holidays


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## MarinaNeira

Hello Rat Daddy --I sent you a PM but please disregard it as I seem to have finally figured the forum out.  On to my actual question.

So far we've had a couple of short sessions, as long as I could make them given my circumstances (2, 2 1/2 hours... not ideal but better than nothing I hope.) I've seen excellent results, and now I can hold my rats for short periods, as in a few seconds, long enough to give them a medicine they are currently taking. This may seem like nothing but I've only had my rats for a little over a week, and they are my first. I would not have been able to give them their meds at all without immersion. Both are males, maybe 3-4 months old, and they are happy rats, but very skittish and occasionally nippy. They were alone in their cages at the store and were clearly suffering from the isolation. Within 3 days I had them together, and this did wonders for their mental state and their attitude towards me.

This video is from the end of our first hour of immersion which was with Praline only. I only later realized that, while Praline could be persuaded to be petted, he simply would not really enjoy himself during immersion without Pancake present. I assume this is because he was so lonely before, and perhaps fears being separated. He is actually very protective of Pancake. So he looks a little happy here, but would soon perk up amazingly, since Pancake came into the immersion a few minutes later:






At the very end of the session, about an hour and a half later, both ratties were happily exhausted, I even got some boggling at the very end, though I'm not sure if it's on this video:






They never sat on me, but I was able to scratch their bellies (I am not sure they enjoyed it but since they are biters and didn't tear up my hand, I am greatly reassured!) They do walk over me but they can never really investigate me. The truth is, I don't let them.

On the first day in their new home, Praline bruxed when I petted him in his cage. He took treats from my hand... Boggled while eating one of them. Still, he was terribly jumpy and easily frightened. In view of all the good signs I lay my hand on the cage. He bit it, a bit hard, not enough to draw blood. I had just given him a treat, perhaps he smelled food. The next day, when I put my hand in to pet him, he lashed out and actually drew blood. Since then, I didn't dare give him my hand to sniff again. I realize there were several mistakes I made. All of this I did prior to finding this forum, and immersion. However, my fear now stands in the way of further progress. My fiance can let them smell his fingers and doesn't get bit. I want to. We've progressed a lot and my ratties are trying to communicate with me. How can they if I don't let them smell and lick me? When they truly show interest, I know what I am doing is basically refuse their advances. It's not pettings, or treats they want. They want to interact with me. I am the problem. What can I do?

During the immersion I took video of, I had gloves at first. I did get brave enough to finally take them off. Do I just need to bite the bullet? Those little teeth hurt. How do I get past my fear?

Also, is it normal for my ratties to be desperate to escape whatever immersion area we are in for over an hour before they pay attention to me? They do groom a lot during this time (and I don't bother them when they do) but they aren't even interested in taking treats from me outside of the cage. Inside, they do.

Thank you so much for all the help you've given me and my ratties through your exhaustive guide so far.


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## Rat Daddy

First of all congrats on your achievements so far.

Actually, I tend to have a relatively confident and assertive way of handling rats and other animals and for some reason I don't usually get bitten. Animals tend to pick up on your cues when you are tentative and some will take the initiative and become assertive, if not even aggressive towards you. Rats are social animals and they live in societies where someone has to be in charge and that will have to be the humans in your relationship. Bad things sometimes happen when rats think they are in charge.

Gloves can be useful in working with nippy or biting rats as can towels and other forms of body armor. Like dogs rats can bite and they can really hurt you, but like dogs when properly raised and cared for they just about never do. Even the part wild rat we had, who could be vicious around strangers was perfectly kid safe around my 5 year old daughter who she loved. 

It's fine to wear gloves or to armor up if it helps you feel more confident. As you work with your rats you will start seeing them reacting towards you with more trust and with more respect as they begin to see you as a family member too. Then as you feel comfortable you can start to work bare handed and more intimately. 

Rats will sometimes nibble a little and some youngsters will even engage you in mock combat, but when they go too far react honestly. If something hurts, shout NO BITING" and bop or swat them (with kindness in your heart). This isn't punishment or revenge, just letting them know they hurt you and you aren't a chew toy. Moreover you don't tolerate biting in your home.. never and not ever. This is the most important rule every rat has to learn.

For most new rat owners, I tend to recommend young pups or rats that are pre-socialized by a breeder. Big rats mean big teeth. So your fears are perfectly natural. But most rats are adopted as adults and from stores and most of the time things work out wonderfully for everyone... it just takes a little longer.

I'm betting your fiance has a more assertive attitude your rats pick up on, so make immersion a family affair, bring him in to your sessions, bring some string, big feathers, treats and toys into the immersion area with you and try to be playful and engaging as best as you can, let your fiance do some of the work, and hopefully have some of the fun too. Your rats seem to be drawing confidence from each other, so why shouldn't you do the same with your fiance?

Remember, your rats are very smart, and they have emotions just like you do. They come from a place where humans ignored them, likely neglected them and may have even mistreated them... They really are trying to figure out what and who you are and what you want and they haven't a clue what the new rules in their new home are. They have a lot to learn about you and their new home and their new life. And you and your finance are going to make their new life wonderful and you are going to love them and as soon as they get it, they will love you and teach you too. Always remember, your rats are going through the same experience you are. You are asking a lot from them and they need the same from you.

Best luck.


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## kali mabel

I have a hostile rat no one wanted but I couldn't just leave her there to be neglected, here she is fine with cage mate she isn't so hostile with me that she draws blood but she doens't like the idea of humans at all. I want to do immersion training on her but a lot of the rooms are too big with lots of stuff she can get lost (unmovable stuff) or has no door, someone suggested finding a big box to put her in and trying it but that doesn't sound like it would work :/


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## raindear

If you can't use a bathroom or even a bath tub, then buying a sheet of this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-16-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Plastic-Panel-63003/202090190 cutting it in half with a pair of scissors and using tape, velcro, or clips to put the two pieces together will give you a playpen to sit in with her for an immersion session.


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## KayRatz

where is the article about true shoulder rats?

i find it interesting that i have done this all along. i never did the side by side cages and i never heeded the advice to leave new rats alone for a few days. it's always been day one i start carrying them around, right.out of quarantine i introduce, and it has always worked great. this article did not exist when i got into rats... i have never had any trouble with any of my rats.


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## KayRatz

I found the article. It was pretty interesting. I've always taken rats out and never did any special training. I only had one incident and that rat was just too nervous for outings. On our last outing he spent the whole time drooling so I quit trying after that. He was smart but not outgoing towards anyone or anything but me. The incident was that he leapt off my arm and started taking off across a busy Petco parking lot.


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## Rat Daddy

When I first started posting online even the mention of shoulder rats was taboo. The general consensus of thought was that rats were indoor pets and should never be taken outdoors. It was also generally assumed that if someone took a rat outdoors it was going to get lost or killed more often than not. And generally anyone that took their rats outside was unfairly exposing them to danger and most likely a really bad person. Any person that would post about taking the rats outside was pretty much considered the spawn of Satan for misleading other people into getting the rats lost or killed. And believe it or not, there are still lots of places on the Internet where that kind of thinking still prevails.


When I first introduced Fuzzy Rat on another forum, not only was I flamed for claiming that I had a true shoulder rat that was outdoor competent, but several so-called rat experts wrote dissertations on why shoulder rats could not possibly exist. Then my threads were shut down and I was warned against posting photos or bringing up the topic again.


You can imagine my confusion that afternoon, at the park sitting on a bench with Fuzzy Rat next to me trying to explain to her that she didn't exist. Surprisingly, she didn't seem to be at all bothered by her non-existential nature. Then she ran off to chase my daughter and the other kids around the park. Watching Fuzzy Rat do what she did so naturally and so happily help me get over my confusion pretty quickly.


At that point, I realized that although there were not many true shoulder rats out there, I most certainly wasn't alone and Fuzzy Rat wasn't the only true shoulder rat in the world. Moreover, some people were always going to take their rats outside and in fact a certain number of very special rats deserve the experience. Pretending that shoulder rats don't exist was a horrible way to deal with the situation. This left each and every shoulder rat trainer and handler completely on their own, without the benefit of anyone else's experience, to devise their own methods and keep their rats safe. In other words, pretty much everybody who took their rat outdoors had to learn from their own mistakes. Working outdoors with rats is dangerous and a single mistake will get you rat killed or lost. And to be clear, that's not an exaggeration.


With the very kind permission of Rat Forum I wrote and posted the thread on training shoulder rats, certainly not to encourage people to take their rats outdoors, but to share the benefit of my experience and start a knowledge base on the subject. Although there may be no safe way to take your rats outdoors, the idea is to manage the risks and the dangers and put the odds in your rat's favor. We train our rats at a safe site, where they can't get killed or lost, we teach them to be competent and confident, we weed out rats that are too nervous or otherwise not suitable to be shoulder rats, we test our rats under controlled conditions and then we carefully manage the dangers we encounter in our travels. This is no guarantee that a true shoulder rat will die of old age at home, but Fuzzy Rat did, as did our second true shoulder rat Maxi Rat and both Cloudy Rat and Misty Rat are both still alive. And even Amelia who never qualified as a true shoulder rat went outside on limited excursions and died of mammary tumors and old-age.


Shoulder ratting has a very steep learning curve, I can't stress it enough, your first mistake can very well be your rats last mistake. If you're otherwise not interested in taking your rats outside, just don't do it. But if you think you have the right rat and you're going to do it anyway, take a little time and read my thread on the subject and do it as safely as you possibly can.

And lastly, I'd like to add that Fuzzy Rat, our most competent true shoulder rat was also the co-founder of immersion... and since her passing, I've worked with some very skilled new shoulder rat trainers with amazing TSR's that built their relationships on immersion and trained their rats with the safe site method. Our home has been blessed with some wonderful rats and we have had some fantastic relationships and amazing adventures with them... 

Fuzzy Rat and I may have brought you immersion and introduced shoulder rats to the internet... but seriously, for me it's all about getting the people who read my posts to help their rats be all they can be, to live their best possible lives and build better relationships with their rats and to take their rats and this fancy to the next level, where rats are truly considered human companion animals on equal footing with 'the big animals'. Rats may have to work harder to be considered equals... but thankfully it's easy for them if given the opportunity.

As I've learned, sometimes the hard way... nothing's impossible for a truly determined rat.

Always play safe, but never be afraid of doing better for the sake of good enough.


Cloudy Rat and her sidekick Misty Rat














Maxie Rat passing her true shoulder rat final exam and doing a meet and greet afterwards...















And Fuzzy Rat just being Fuzzy Rat... high in a tree or making friends at the beach....














True shoulder rats may be very rare... but they are not a myth.


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## kali mabel

ah thank you! thats a great idea !


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## RatWhisperer

Hey there again!

I just wanted to drop by and thank everyone for contributing to this thread (again).
The screwed up lab rat i adopted and wrote about it here in september 2015 has integrated into our family.
It was not easy nor pleasant, but in the end it came out just fine.
Again big thank You and keep up the good work!


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## Rat Daddy

It seems like a long time ago now. There was a post from someone who had an aggressively biting screwed up rat that was biting him every day for 3 months.. someone asked him to post a photo of his hand to show how he was getting bitten, and wow, it was an ugly photo... these were nasty bites... and the OP was considering having his rat PTS... 

I was working the kinks out of immersion theory with Fuzzy Rat at the time. It was kind of my own personal project and I hadn't considered sharing it... especially the extreme variant. But looking at the photos of the aggressive rat that was going to be PTS and the photo of his owner's hand... I decided I'd take a chance... I wrote my very first post on immersion.... and then deleted it... I tried again to make it sound "friendlier" and more "PC" and deleted that too... Then I wrote it for the third time... and no matter how I re-read it it still looked ugly. But I hit 'Post Quick Reply' and went to bed.

The next morning when I got up, as you can imagine, there were a few critical replies and a few choice unsavory comments... But then there was a post that read.... "I spent the whole night up with my new best friend..." And suddenly other posts popped up linking that thread and talking about having fixed their screwed up biting rats too... And I was asked to help some more folks with extreme immersions and eventually asked to write this guide. If it wasn't for that single success story post, the day after I first wrote my post, perhaps immersion would never have happened and this thread wouldn't be here. 

Mostly, I wanted to write this guide to introduce immersion theory and normal immersion... bonding with rats through communication and fixing rats through proper social structure in a mixed human and rat family... but fixing screwed up rats has always remained important to me, even when extreme immersion isn't easy or pleasant.

I'm really gratified to have helped you with your problem rat... you did all of the hard work and deserve all of the credit. I know how hard it must have been and you should be very proud of yourself. 

And most of all, thank you for coming back and sharing your success. Posts like yours give other people hope and the encouragement to make their rats lives better and not to give up when things get hard.


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## Ratticus Finch

I did not read all 47 pages of this thread, just the first three. In Rat Daddy's instructions. My rat bites, and when he bites, it draws blood. Lots of it. I followed the instructions about going to war. I even put on a little war paint. I very quickly leaned that he bites, not out of aggression, but because he's cone red and scared out of his tiny mind. I've been going at it for a couple hours and listening to his horrible screams. Even without touching him, he screams and screams. I don't know what to do. There's not going to be a moment where he realizes I'm the top dog because he already knows and that literally scares the crap out of him.


Help me, Rat daddy. Your our only hope.


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## Ratticus Finch

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but we need to talk about the majestic, mystifying power of the rat burrito. The very same rat that spent the last three hours screaming, taking chunks from hands, and absolutely refusing to let me touch him, practically just fell asleep in my arms for half an hour. 

Once I managed to get him all wrapped up real snug in a towel, restrained from escape, he instantly relaxed. Allowing me to get a few bite-free stitches in on his head. Then he just melted into my arms, out of his towel tortilla, and enjoyed a good scritching for the first time in his life. I can't explain it. Hours ago he was the rat from ****. 

Anyways, Rat daddy, if You're out there, I no longer need your help. ='-)


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## Rat Daddy

It is sometimes hard to tell if you are dealing with a frightened rat or an aggressive rat... but I think you made the right call... Aggressive rats attack you while fearful rats tend to "defend themselves" by biting when cornered. For the most part a less aggressive approach is warranted with fearful rats than the aggressive ones... but you really do need to remain on the assertive side. The basic rule is that nothing happens if you do nothing.

I'm sure some folks will see the towel burrito as just as aggressive as combat, and in some ways it is, but I think it was a great call on your part... you initiated contact and got your rat to understand that you weren't going to hurt him and he responded to you appropriately as soon as he understood you wanted to be his friend and protector.

There's a natural instinct that people have to want to give a fearful rat space or time, and to a degree it's true, but in all reality while you are giving your rat space and time, it's not getting to know you or making any progress in understanding you. 

Although the towel tortilla or rat burrito is a bit of a new twist your experience is very typical of immersion. Your rat just suddenly gets that you aren't the enemy and that you want to be his or her friend and suddenly everything changes. Rats are brilliant animals and they have intelligence based on understanding. So once they learn something they can almost instantly change their behavior. 

Last night I was teaching my daughter to divide fractions. She's 10 years old and hadn't a clue what dividing fractions was about... So I discussed the theory and why anyone would do it and went through a few examples... somewhere between my second and third example she suddenly got it... and did the fourth on her own... it's a skill that will last a lifetime and an ability she will always have... one second she didn't understand and the next it was second nature. That's how humans learn and it's the same with rats... You just have to be persistent and work out a technique that works for you and your rat. 

Viva the towel tortilla.


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## Angel_Rat

Sry if this was already mentioned, but I just didn't want to go through 47 pages 😀, and was wondering how long you should wait till you start the imission process. Also say you have two normal rats who aren't scared or aggressive, can you go into more detail about taming them? And say the normal nice rat fights back (not aggressively) like you said to see who the alpha is, how to you fight back and show them your the boss and how do you know when they are submissive? If this has already been answered then please derict me to the page(s)! 😀Thanks!


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## Rat Daddy

To answer your first question, rats are not tropical fish. They don't have to adjust to the pH or acclimate to the specific gravity of your home, mostly they need a friend to reassure them and guide them through the adjustment process. The sooner you start your relationship, the sooner you can help your new rats to adjust to their new environment. For the most part, we adopt rat pups and my daughter starts handling them on the ride home. Usually we settle in for our first immersion session before we even introduce our rats to their new cage. Hopefully by the end of their first day with us, our rats know that they are protected, cherished and loved. Moreover, they know that they are not alone.


I don't like to think of immersion as a taming process. Many experts consider rats to be metacognitive. In other words they think very much like humans. And like humans, rats are social animals. Immersion is a process of socialization through communication. It's very much similar to raising a child. The object of the exercise to create understanding between you and your rats. I'm not suggesting that rats are as complicated as human beings or that they can comprehend everything we can, but their thought processes are very similar to ours. Think of the human brain as a UNIX mainframe computer and the rats brain as an android tablet. Although we have certain differences in our capacity to learn and understand overall, the objective is to exchange information and understanding between devices that work in a very similar way.


For the most part, normal rats don't challenge humans for status in any serious or meaningful way. Most humans are at least 100 times larger than their rats are and most rats aren't blind and are keenly aware of that fact. Normal rats will often hands wrestle or play fight with their humans to test their limits, but this really isn't mortal combat, it's just a game. It's likely safe to say that most rats work out there social status issues in a playful way, our younger girl, Misty, still likes to challenge me and steal tissue paper right from my hands. I'm not suggesting that Misty is challenging my status as parent, she's just having fun, testing her limits and getting one over on old dad. If you feel your rat is pushing you too hard, sometimes all you have to do is change the tone of your voice, sometimes a tender swat or bop will get your message across and sometimes just picking them up, holding and scritching them a little assertively will get your message across too.


The vast majority of rats that get adopted are actually normal to fearful and are never likely to challenge you for status. However, there are a few that have been screwed up in their previous homes and see themselves in a leadership or alpha roll. Unfortunately, sometimes they will defend their status very aggressively. In general, these rats will not only bite, but they will attack humans and sometimes even other rats. To some degree, we've addressed these particular problem rats in greater detail, not because they are very common, but because of the severity of the problem. Aggressively biting rats aren't pets. Unfortunately socializing this kind of a rat can be both hazardous and unpleasant. Extreme immersion should never be done with normal rats and for the most part, most rat owners will never need to attempt this procedure. Generally, I suggest that most rat owners try to get to know the rats before they adopt them and avoid bringing home screwed up and dangerous animals. Extreme immersion is only one tool in the immersion toolbox. For example, every good mechanic owns a really big hammer that he very rarely uses. For the most part, big hammers break things, but every once in a great while, they are the perfect tool for the job.


The first part of every immersion is to diagnose your rats particular issues. If it runs away from you, it's very likely afraid, if it ignores you, it probably doesn't realize that your a sentient being or that you want to be it's friend, if it out right attacks you and tries to bite you, it might be challenging you for social status and attempting to dominate you. Again this is a very unusual situation. Once you fix the social relationship between you and your rat, it's behavior will change. Often it will change in a big way, and often this will happen almost spontaneously. Some rats will crawl on you and fall asleep, while others will rollover and want to get their belly scritched. It's very important that you reward your rat's new behavior with lots of time, love and attention so that it understands that it's part of your family and that it's both cherished and loved. This isn't really a process of beating a rat into submission, it's really just a matter of establishing a normal family hierarchy. For example, as a parent you have to send your kids to school every day, help them choose their wardrobe and plan the family meals. In general, younger children don't get a lot of say in these decisions. We might say they have to submit to their parents authority. Likewise you have to submit to the instructions of your boss, professor or teacher. Every day we each have to submit to some authority that's greater than ourselves. This doesn't make us mindless drones or victims of Stockholm syndrome, rather it provides us with a comfortable place in our society. To some extent submission to authority is an important part of social order and just like humans rats understand that. Misty likes to challenge our social order by stealing stuff and Cloud loves to build extravagant nests out of plastic bags and tissue paper. As a good rat parent I let our girls get away with their little preoccupations because it makes them happy. For the privilege of living free range in our house, our rats don't chew wires, tear up the carpet, or kill my plants. Nor would they ever consider biting anyone. Maintaining proper social order doesn't actually require much, if any, force at all, mostly it's a matter of communication and understanding. In fact, by submitting to our social order our rats have a much higher degree of freedom than most. Similarly, most humans that follow the law don't spend too much time in jail.


In addressing rat socialization we often use terms like alpha, dominance, submission and social status for lack of better terms, but it's important to note that relationships are organic and complex. If we were to sit down and analyze the relationship you have with your parents or your best friends we very well might use the same terms, but in all reality when your parents or partner decides what you're watching on television you don't generally think of them as your alpha and you don't consider yourself in submission when you go along with their decision, likewise a well socialized rat shouldn't feel oppressed by being part of your family. The principal purpose behind immersion is to establish communication and promote understanding between two or more intelligent and metacognitive individuals. As the human you have to be in charge, mostly because rats can't run a human household, but it is a give-and-take relationship and you have to accommodate the needs and interests of your rats as well. If your rats push you too far, sometimes you have to push back and when your rats break the rules sometimes you have to be the disciplinarian, or the parent or perhaps even the cop, but mostly when your rats are good you have to show them that you respect them, that you care for them and that you love them.


In immersion, we often focus on having to enforce the rules and establishing proper social order, because more often than not, that's what humans have the most trouble with. Most of us love our rats and will do anything for them. We want to be gentle, we want to be kind, we want to show our rats how much we love them and care for them. So I rarely get asked the question "How much time should I spend rewarding my rat or reinforcing their good behaviors?" In reality the good rat owner is constantly rewarding their rats and reinforcing their good behavior. The last time I raised my voice to Cloud was in 2014 and I think it's been about four months since Misty attacked my orchids and we had to have a meaningful conversation about it. But every time I see them, I make sure they get a hug and some scritches and are reminded of just how wonderful they are. We don't train our rats with treats, but they get treats every day, just because we want them to feel nurtured and loved. So I suppose that, as much as we occasionally have to reinforce appropriate social relationships and enforce the house rules, mostly immersion is about communicating to our rats that they are cherished family members and that their happiness is important to us.


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## RatAtat2693

Rat Daddy said:


> It is sometimes hard to tell if you are dealing with a frightened rat or an aggressive rat...
> 
> Viva the towel tortilla.


Hahaha. Yeah. The burrito is awesome, especially for fear biters. I do a mixture of trust training and immersion, but I reserve real immersion for the fosters that want nothing to do with me. Ignoring humans does not get you adopted, so we have to learn to love/tolerate it. (I'm a lot more lax with my personal rats. They do as they please during free time, provided it doesn't hurt anyone.)

I have a trio of biters that wouldn't get anywhere near me. They're cage aggressive, so we skipped the whole "let's hang out next to the big box thing" and went straight to the bathroom. Instead of the rat burrito, I just stick them in my hoodie. Worked for 2/3. Had to burrito the last because she's actually an angry rat who I believe is food protective. Took about ten bites before I realized that nine of them were when I was reaching for food. #10 was while pulling her out of the carrier. The woman who surrendered her got them from someone else who gave her a seed mix and shipped them in a hamster carrier, so who knows what they, and if they, we're eating.

(Note: I have an extremely high pain tolerance and really thick skull. After working with scared animals for as long as I can remember, I am definitely accustomed to being bitten, kicked, and clawed by animals, big and small. _Please_ do not stick a potentially aggressive biting rat down your shirt and expect it to be butterflies and rainbows.)

And by the way, RD, I don't know how you deal with girls. I've only had one girl, but she was no where near as crazy as these three scurrying lunatics. Won't sit still for a minute, even when they're not running from me. Makes me love my boys even better. They do seem a little brighter than all the boys I've had, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.


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## Zanie

I'm sure this has been asked and I did read the first 5-6 pages, then every other..and every fifth..and so on.. untill now.. but I'd appreciate some thoughts of my own situation  And immersion..

Ok, my first, quite basic question: What does the word "immersion" mean? I've understand the method (well, partly I guess since I have questions) , but it's not a word I've heard before and google wasn't helpful 

So, I'm sitting here with Zanie and Niftie and pondering what I've just read. They're both very quiet, Zanie's fishing some peas in a watr bowl, Niftie's hiding away in a blanket. The other four ladies are upstairs in the cage, likely sleeping (it's noon and they're often sleepy at this time). 
This will be a long post..I'm sorry. (oh, Zanie just climbed up on my shoulder and sniffed my face..cutiepie) Where was I.. uhm.. yeah. I have a need to try to explain my standpoint and situation as well as I can.. sometimes it just makes it confusing since I can't really sort what's most important or what the recipient will make of it.. but it's a need I have..

I don't quite believe in alpha, in the way it has been used throughout history. I'm not sure if your take of alpha is the same or not, I do sense a differense..but in some sentences - like that rats try to get alpha status over people - it just feel to me like this old fashioned view.. Anyway, my take on it is that most beings want to rely on someone for safety and guidance. If they can't rely on someone else, they'll take the role themselves - and it might just be very stressful because they're not really sure they're doing it right. (For example a horse that takes on the role as ''watcher'' and constantly tries to foresee any danger, will be nervous and skittish. But if you convince him that you're better equipped to watch out, he'll relax and can focus on you... Or the example with nervous-aggressive dogs that can't relax because they have to protect the owner from intrudors. Once the dogs realize that the owner can protect her/himself, the dog can relax and listen.) Maybe you call this alpha? The word alpha to me means more a rigid boss-employee type of relation. 

However I think of alphas, I do count rats as thinking, communicating beings. All animals communicate. While I don't believe they can reason out a strategy in the way humans can and think about past and future in the terms we've constructed (which is why we need to start the change in our relation), I do believe they can feel empathy in several steps (= recognize that other beings have emotions that's not the same as their own). Scientific studies suggest this, and everyday experiences with animals and rats tell me that they are able to put two and two together. It's learning creatures with memories and recognition, wants and needs and individual taste. Different from us in some needs (chewing, climbing, not playing videogames or reading books) but similiar in others (companionship, mental stimulation, food, water, rest, safety). This is I suppose basically my view on rats. 

Omn to the immersion... I'm not sure where I am or how to do. My rats doesn't prefer my company. They'll investigate me and they'll come to sniff my hands when I open the cage. That's often more important to Zanie, Niftie and Spell than to get the treat I'm holding, right away. (Magic, Blaize and Oddity just want the treat). They're friendly in the sense that they don't bite, they'll let me pick them up athough Spell, Blaize and Magic doesn't like it and Oddity gets really stressed (poops and pees and brathes hard. I avoid picking her up, she's at least two years old and seem happy to be in the mischief, come to my hands in the cage, letting me pet her in the cage and she's the only one who's boggled for me... she's coming out to free range on her own and then goes back on her owm. I think that trying to get her used to being picked up and carried around at this age and time will just make her life worse more than good). 
I have a hard time seeing them trying to tell me anything. Even now - Zanie's still on my shoulder - I don't know hat she wants from me.
When they're out, they're generally not interested in me. I might have hd a lightbulb moment wih Spell - she always was skittish, runny and not coming back to me at all. Now she seems curious about me even if I suspect she's mostly interested in the treats. I think Blaize is trying to figure me out as well, after watching Spell.
I'll just post a video of free range time with mainly those two, because I have one. Watch it if you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNHskl5mSZc (she would not dream of coming to me before this, which is why I started filming)

Magic will sleep next to me on the couch. None of them really plays with my hands or - as far as I see - try to get my attention except to make me give them treats and open the cage.
I think Niftie's more nervous... she comes to me in the cage but rather stay on her own during free range. 
I can't tell if they like when I pet and ''groom'' them or if they just accept it..
I'm not sure if they see me as someone who tries to talk with them, or just some obnoxious giant with treats that sometimes bring them along..

I can take them to the bathroom and use that as a play area where they can't get out of reach (the free range room has spots where it's hard to get to them, but not impossible) but even though it's quite a booring place after the first investigation, they don't really care about me or my previous attempts to play with them.

I'm not sure how to start trying to communicate, and get us all to try understanding each other. I've taught Zanie a simple trick (getting up on my hand to get a treat), and the others only get treats if they put both front feet on my one hand. If nothing else it has helped making them keen on coming to the cage after free range time, as I'll give them treats from their level there, and they understood that they could do something to get the treat (come to my hand) instead of just hoping it will ''fly'' in their direction.
But to be honest, I'm not sure how to interact with them, other than stroking their backs when they come, rubbing their chins when they're in ''cosy mode'', or just sitting there handing uout treats. I don't want to be a vending machine, but I of course don't mind giving treats either..

They probably think I'm stupid.. 

Soo... sorry for the long post..


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## Zanie

I guess this is some of their normal action when I'm opening the cage. (you can ignore at 3.37 and onwards unless you're super interested in my view of wheels  . They're really hated here in Sweden so I felt a need to explain why I have a running disc, as well as explaining why I wouldn't put a regular wheel in.. no matter what choice I make I get hate from people *lol*) Or ignore the whole video..just thinking that it might show my rats behaviour towards me, since I ave some trouble evaluationg our relation )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-ke4-hn3sQ


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## Angel_Rat

RatDaddy you should make a video or video series about immersion training, because even though you describe things really well some poeple understand things better in by watching not reading 🙂


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## LyNuth

Hi Rat Daddy,

We (my boyfriend and I) have been reading this thread for a while now. 

We got out first pair of rats (Ein and Kero) during last Christmas (they were 6 weeks old). Everything seemed pretty good, even though we hadn't find your guide to immersion yet we made sure to spend time with them. They are both pretty friendly, Ein is very energetic and likes exploring while Kero (a red eyed Siamese) is a lot shyer and prefers staying with me and get cuddles. 

However about four weeks ago Ein has started developing a biting behaviour. He is the most outgoing of the two, but he is most of the time very friendly and inquisitive. He learned his first little command first, loves riding in my shoulder around the house and even though he is too energetic to stay still for long he is ok being pet most of the time. We think the issue started from play-fight since we noticed he likes chasing things so we would drag a rope for him to chase or sometimes our hands. Soon he was nipping our hands but we knew it was normal, but soon after he started biting harder and harder until he drew blood. At first we weren't sure of how to react and deter him from doing so. We certainly don't feel he is a purely aggressive rat but he gets very worked up at times. We set to do more research (a lot of reading and we found your guide). 

About two weeks ago I set myself to do my first immersion with Ein. I spent about six hours with him, and all throughout I thought it went very well. He explored all my room and I engaged him, he would climb to my shoulder and down, explore more, get some treats and when he finally started getting tired he napped in my lap and would become a pancake for scratches and love. Then he would resume exploring and come back for more sleep and love. He did not try to bite me not once even if I was actively engaging him or making play with a rope. 

During the next week even though I couldn't immerse with him we spend as much time (at least a couple of hours during the day) with them as we could, and after a few days he started biting again. Sometimes it would be quite unprovoked and last Friday he actually bit me the hardest so far, and wouldn't let go and I had to swat him to let go of my wrist. My boyfriend thought maybe I wasn't asserting myself that well as the parent and he set to do immersion with Ein. He spent 6-7 hours with him on the weekend, and this time Ein did try to bite him but he used a very assertive 'no' and Ein would stop but get all puffed up, then calm down and back to normal and he would get some love. At about four and a half hours he finally got cuddlier and fell asleep for the remaining time, getting much affection and actually waking up if he stopped being pet. 

Ein seems to have understand what 'no' means, but during the week he has still tried to bite us, he would get a 'no' and he would stop but you can tell he is uncomfortable and angry, he puffs up and stares, sometimes deep breathing. We have been worried all along about Ein also lashing into Kero, and today he got very worked up when he was free roaming and I sat closeby, Kero (usually so shy) was brave and took of from my lap and approached Ein just for Ein to attack him. It wasn't their usual boxing and side kicking, but Ein actually tried to bite Kero, who freaked out and squealed and tried to run away but Ein wouldn't let go until I picked him up (he did not try to bite me and calmed down immediately when I had him in the air). We kept Kero separate for a little while to comfort him, and later we put them back together in their cage. They avoided each other for a couple of hours and Kero was a bit nervous but now they are both sleeping together.

We would love if you could give us your input in our particular case. I've read a lot in this thread and in a lot of other places. I do agree with the way you think in how we should come to understand our rats, building a bond with them from communication. I would love to get this with our rats, but we are quite lost as to how to read Ein's behaviour. We aren't sure if he is just refusing to let go of dominance, or might be hormonal, or both. We are unsure of how to proceed. 

Thank you for taking so much of your time to help all us rat parents.


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## Rat Daddy

First, I'll address LyNuth's question as biting rats get priority.

First consistency is important in every rats life.. Your rats need interaction with you every day. While they don't need a long session every day a little bit of routine is good for rats to feel comfortable, this is likely true of humans too. But even with routines, certain rats seem destined for greater things in their own mind... they have a tendency to want to take charge of things when they hit puberty. This can be supported by giving them greater challenges and adventures to burn up their extra energy, but at some point, where assertiveness borders on aggression... a shout, a bop or a swat (with love in your heart) goes a long way to wake a rat with dreams of personal conquest up and get his feet back on the ground. Naturally you aren't trying to hurt your rat, but you want to be very firm, just a little shock and awe goes a long way. Rats learn that there are things they get rewarded for doing, things they can sometimes get away with and that humans will often give in and let them do if they push hard enough. Like kids that keep pushing mom and dad until one parent gives in. Rats need to learn that biting is never acceptable... NEVER and NOT EVER... and when they bite teddy bear mommy and daddy become grizzly bear mommy and daddy. And no one wants to see grizzly bear mommy and daddy. Rats realize their actions have consequences and they quickly learn what the taboos are if you are consistent and don't back down. So our rats will sometimes steal our food... sometimes it's cute, sometimes it isn't when my pork chop gets dragged across the table cloth... Naturally I object and recover my meal, but over all it's a minor crime and I might raise my voice a little, biting is a taboo and is a special case. Rats that bite really can't safely be kept as pets and for this special case more extreme measures are acceptable... naturally up to a point.

Hormones do come into play, especially with males. But hormones don't happen in a vacuum. Nature has a mechanism to make alpha rats bigger and stronger so they can more effectively carry out their function. When a rat becomes the alpha, or leader it's body releases hormones that make it larger, stronger and more aggressive. Conversely, when an alpha rat get's dethroned, it's hormone level drops back to normal. 

It's unclear why some rats are more likely than others to try for alpha status, but experience shows that it's important to back them down when they do. The longer they are allowed to go unchecked the harder it is to get their behavior under control again.

This brings us to legitimate disorders. Some rats, just like some humans can have mental health issues the can affect their behavior. If their body produces too much hormone or if something like a tumor is growing in their brain they can bite without good reason and it may be beyond their ability to control themselves. Neutering can help a rat that produces too much hormone and only a vet can advise you regarding other health issues that might cause biting or aggressive behavior.

Most rats can be fixed by reinforcing your social status as parent and by you maintaining proper discipline, some rats might need to be neutered and sadly some rats can't be helped even by a vet. Likewise most unruly children get corrected by their parents and teachers, a few can't be socialized and wind up in prison or a mental hospital or even on death row... Generally we don't execute or castrate humans.

Be consistent... be the big best friends your rat needs, but as soon as he gets out of hand... be the grizzly bear... Make sure he knows in no uncertain terms that he can't bite you or his friend... act quickly, immediately and decisively and leave no margin for misunderstanding. 

To give you an extreme example... we adopted a part wild rat that my daughter lost outside... she was on her own for 5 months or rather all summer and she chased away the feral cats from our yard and she moved in with the neighbor's pit bull terriers... stealing their food and rolling in their scent. When my neighbor brought his dogs in for the winter, she moved into his apartment too going through the walls of his house. When he tried to catch her for us, she shredded his hand and he was special forces just back from Iraq... She bit hard, fast and often and turned from nice to vicious in an eye blink... And yes, she came out of his walls and back to me on command and moved back in with our family... One day I pulled her out of the towel closet and she turned into a blur of fangs and claws.. like the Tasmanian devil cartoon. She didn't bite me, I dropped her, but she could be quite terrifying.... Then one day I was holding a white mouse while she was on my shoulder.... she charged down my arm to kill the mouse, I turned my had to block her and she took a nasty bite out of my palm... by reflex, I launched her across the room and somewhere between hitting the far wall and falling to the floor she realized what a stupid thing she had done... and scurried right back to me... and yes she was licking my ear and snuggling my neck as I was working to stem the flow of blood from my hand... She never flew into one of her rages with me again or attacked me to get her way... She may have been dangerous and vicious... but she wasn't stupid. Cats may run away, and dogs and other humans may back down... but really bad things happen when we bite he otherwise nice and friendly daddy... And it only took her a split second to figure it out... 

Again.... no one should ever throw a rat into a wall... I didn't intend to do it, it was a reflex to my extreme and unexpected pain... but despite it being an accident it shows you how fast a rat can learn and adapt. 

I might add, that when she wasn't surprised or trying to hurt or kill something she was really a very sweet and loving rat... and although she had a tendency to disappear and lurk in the shadows and in high places, she made a wonderful friend to our other domestic rat and our 5 year old daughter... Even nice rats can learn to bite, and biting rats can be fixed and make wonderful companion animals.

Remember... biting can never be tolerated... NEVER and NOT EVER. Rule 1, Top Priority... what ever it takes. For a domestic rat, it's a matter of life and death.

Best luck.


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## Rat Daddy

Angel_Rat,

There are so few videos on immersion because it's a personal and intimate experience, likewise there are very few people who video their first dates. First dates and immersion are interactive and unpredictable, everyone is hands on and in the moment. Weddings on the other hand are staged and choreographed and work to a predictable conclusion. And even then, it's uncommon for the bride and groom to snap selfies at the alter.

I know it might seem simple to stage an immersion...Like just buy a rat at a pet shop bond with him or her while someone is filming and then bring him back... but I can't imagine anyone doing something like this... It's emotionally unhealthy for both the animal and the human involved, like finding someone to go out on a date so you can document the action. It either won't be real or it will be really screwed up...

I hope that makes sense. If I can get someone to film it when we adopt our next rat, I'll try but I know I'll be participating rather than filming. Maybe I can film a little while my daughter is playing with the new rat... I'll see how it goes, but no promises in any event.


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## Rat Daddy

Zanie,

My experiences with the truly amazing and communicative Fuzzy Rat, observations of and interactions with wild rats as well as other domestic rats started me down the path of communication and understanding and seeing rats as interactive social animals... perhaps a change in focus from behavioral psychology to social psychology... I originally introduced immersion on a one to one basis to help people with their problem rats and it was very successful and took on the nicknames... 'Rat Daddy's method' or simply 'the method'... And one night someone asked me what "the method" was called and it suddenly occurred to me that most of the really cool names... like 'trust training' had already been taken... So I went with something more functional and representative of the actual procedure. The purpose of the long session is to fully immerse a new rat into his or her new family where he or she can feel warm and safe as well as learn about his or her new human friends and likewise the humans are also immersed into the experience of learning about and bonding with their new little friend. I wanted the name to represent a bidirectional and multilevel experience because bonding actually takes place in both the human and rat participant... And best of all the name hadn't been taken before as it applied to rats. I suppose if I got it wrong.. a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.

As to your first video, you are in fact, pretty much sitting still and being a vending machine and your rats are responding very appropriately and treating you like one. I'm sure if you weren't holding the camera, you would be on the floor with them and chasing them around a bit, perhaps snuggling and skritching them or chasing them around, maybe playing tug of war or some other ratty game... My daughter dances with her rats and sometimes tosses them up and catches them. It looks a lot like rat abuse to me, but the rats seem to love the rough handling. I hike around the house with them and carry them about and play tug of war.. I also teach the rats to point where they want to go when they get older.. they point with their noses and I go that way until they learn to tell me which way they want me to go... they scratch a door they want opened and for the most part look right in my eyes if they are about to do something really stupid to remind me to stop them... Kind of like, daddy do you mind if I spill your coffee all over your desk...? When the cup is full and in no danger of tipping, I let them sip my coffee, if it's mostly empty I tell them to stop and they do. Right now Misty is telling me she knows I have a Big Mac somewhere in the room and she's going to lurk just out of sight and in striking distance until I open the bag.

In the second vid, the PEW is definitely telling you she (looked like a girl) wants your attention, she wants out of the cage and to go somewhere and do something with you... And I think you got it and picked her up. She was likely up to a walk around the house or a little fun on the kitchen table or a romp in the play room... She was initiating an interaction and you responded by picking her up handling her a little and putting her back in the cage... and then she tried again... she finally understood that you were busy with your camera and went back into the cage... You communicated and she understood.

Different rats have different interests and abilities when it comes to communication... Fuzzy Rat understood over 50 words and phrases while most rats learn under a dozen. Misty responds best to hand signals, I wave her to come or point in which direction she should go. She's pretty indifferent to most words other than her name or her come command... If I'm bringing in food and point to the cage she goes there, while Fuzzy Rat understood, "food is in your cage" and would sprint to her cage for dinner. I can't say why Fuzzy Rat learned words and Misty cues in on hand signals, but each rat communicates differently. Misty asks permission to do something, Fuzzy Rat would always wait until we turned our backs and do what she wanted when no one was looking... She knew the answer might be "NO" and she wasn't interested in hearing "NO". 

The term 'alpha' in immersion is used for lack of a better word... and needs to be interpreted in context. A rat alpha is not a wolf alpha, and members of rat packs are typically more independent than stereotypical wolves on nature shows would seem to be. Some years ago, my daughter encountered a pack of wild rats and chased them around.. she was only 5 and likely smelled like our female rat and the young wild rats seemed to have a lot of fun playing chase with her, in fact one rat became many rats in just a few minutes and they actually jumped over her feet... their game looked coordinated to a point, because as soon as she chased one, another ran across her path to distract her, but I couldn't see one rat directing traffic... Likely there was a leader that could have sounded an alarm or signaled danger, but he or more likely she as somewhere in the chase enjoying the game, leading the others through the encounter.

When I use the term alpha in context to humans, I see it more as a parental role, not a military officer or boss... Alpha isn't a great word as it has too many connotations that don't apply to either humans or rats, but it serves the purpose until we all agree on a better one...

In the end, the purpose of words is to convey a message or a thought, not necessarily to simply define the syntax.

As to a rats cognitive abilities... we were blessed to work with one of the smartest and most determined rats. So I'll cite an example... 

It was late autumn and the weather was cold. We were on the beach with her and she was foraging through the disgusting stuff that washes up on the beach for nasty things to eat... Then suddenly her attention shifted to a clump of bushes on an adjacent private property and went towards it... Naturally I blocked her and she tried it again a few times. Once it was clear I wasn't letting her off the beach onto the private property, she tried deception, heading back towards the car and then making an end run around me, but my daughter caught her and blocked her. She tried that a couple more times too... Then she started to wander the beach in the opposite direction until I followed, and then just as I got close, and out of position she jumped into the ice cold lake and swam around me.. she got out just before the 5 foot stone wall and scampered up it, then through the chain link fence into the clump of bushes that she wanted to go to... 5 minutes later she came back wet and cold and shivering, but thoroughly satisfied at her accomplishment.. I dried her in my t-shirt. There's no debate in my mind that that rat formed a plan, which evolved from simple to complex, she had a goal, and she achieved it, first by trying the direct approach, then by deception and finally by forming a strategy. And frankly, I was caught slack jawed and flat footed just like she knew I would be. She may have misjudged the shivering and freezing part, but she knew enough to come back and get dried off pretty quickly. And we never did find out what was in those bushes that was worth all of the effort... And it isn't only Fuzzy Rat that can plan and devise strategies, I've built very elaborate barricades only to watch Misty defeat each one in turn... Sometimes her strategies involve several steps but she doesn't give up and starts out at the foot of the barricade and works her way backwards and upwards until she finds a way over under or through... I've watched her do it and you can see the wheels turning in her small but intricate mind. In my experience rats' brains and minds are laid out very much like ours... maybe like the android version of a UNIX mainframe, the code might be lighter, the memory more limited and the processor slower, but for the most part the architecture is all there. Intelligence, comprehension, emotion and communication are all part of a rats hard and software. The inter-species networking might be a little tricky as neither humans or rats come with a USB interface, but with patience a lot can be achieved.

As to how to improve your relationships with your rats through immersion: Basically engage them... get on the floor chase them a little, talk to them, teach them their names and teach them basic commands like come... Try to evaluate how they respond to you and try to react in a way that they might understand you. Show them you can understand them and that you get it... Show them that you are sentient. Even being a vending machine is a form of basic communication, but you can really do a lot more with most rats.

Next, everyone is uncomfortable with change. Your life might not be great, but it's the life you have come to know and it's comfortable. This is also true for rats. And most likely your normal routine with your rats evolved for good reasons having to do with your work schedule your sleep schedule and your personality. When you start to interact with them differently, they might get uncomfortable or even frightened... It might even be uncomfortable for you at first. That's both normal and acceptable... be persistent and consistent in the changes you make and create the new "normal" you want. Even our rats have a routine, they don't like when I go about upsetting it for no reason, but if something new is fun, exciting or rewarding, they tend to go with the flow and have fun with it eventually.

Lastly, every rat is different. Fuzzy Rat was the popular cheerleader and honor student while Max was the emo/goth girl. Fuzzy Rat loved to be in the center of mobs and to lead crowds of teenagers around the park. Max preferred to brood in her dark and dank secret nest and if someone upset her, she didn't come out for days. That's not to say she couldn't be sweet and playful or even enjoy being around a crowd of people if the mood struck her, but for the most part she liked to watch the world around her from a dark and secure location. And just as a footnote, rats that don't see as well as others tend to be more hesitant in open places and rats tend to get more reclusive as they get older and their faculties fade. Also true of humans... 

I hope I answered a few of your questions.


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## RatAtat2693

Rat Daddy said:


> Angel_Rat,
> 
> There are so few videos on immersion because it's a personal and intimate experience, likewise there are very few people who video their first dates. First dates and immersion are interactive and unpredictable, everyone is hands on and in the moment. Weddings on the other hand are staged and choreographed and work to a predictable conclusion. And even then, it's uncommon for the bride and groom to snap selfies at the alter.
> 
> I know it might seem simple to stage an immersion...Like just buy a rat at a pet shop bond with him or her while someone is filming and then bring him back... but I can't imagine anyone doing something like this... It's emotionally unhealthy for both the animal and the human involved, like finding someone to go out on a date so you can document the action. It either won't be real or it will be really screwed up...
> 
> I hope that makes sense. If I can get someone to film it when we adopt our next rat, I'll try but I know I'll be participating rather than filming. Maybe I can film a little while my daughter is playing with the new rat... I'll see how it goes, but no promises in any event.


This is especially true for biters. Trust me, I considered filming the immersion of the three biting girls, but between getting my pinky ripped open and making sure I still have my nose/toes, I kind of forgot about camera angles and lighting. :relaxed: (I don't generally use gloves or shoes after removing them from the carrier since I hate myself and want them used to my scent.)

And I've found cameras/camera phones tend to freak out even my tame rats. 

Besides, do you really want to watch me throw a rat down my shirt or start swearing when I'm dripping blood on the bathroom carpet? The reality is that not all immersions go down as a pretty dance of tickles and awkward curiosity. Sometimes you have to check and see if you need a tetanus shot. Even if it is butterflies and rainbows, I'd want to focus on making sure my rat knows I'm listening to it instead of checking the white balance on my camera. (Filming is an art on its own.)


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## Zanie

I understood the point of the method (mostly at least, creating a bond) but immerse or immersion isn't words I know. I've never heard them before.  I'll try to google them again... (english is my secondary language)

Thanks for your reply 
Yes, I'm definetly a vending machine for Spell in the first video (and that's, like I said, an improvemrent from being ignored completely). But you're unfortunatly wrong in the assumption that I'd play with them if I wasn't filming... thy don't play with me. If I try to initiate play, chase or just touch them, they're more likely to just run away where they know I have trouble reaching them.. Spell coming back after I rubbed/messed with her back when she took the treats is the most ''play'' I've seen. I'm not sure why they don't want to play, I'm not going after them to put them back in the cage (in the start they all went back on their own, and now they come when I give them treats there). I've made sure fro start to not grab and hold but to try and listen to them, so if they want to get down I let them down (unless it's super important not to) and to not pick them up all the time but just touch, retreat, scratch a bit, let them investigate etc. Not that I havn't worked on picking them up, but I don't want them to think ''ugh, that human who's always coming here just picks us up all the time"... *They play with each other but I'm not invited.*

Yes, the red eyed is a she  They all are. She's Zanie, who's name I've stolen for the board. Pretty much the one I feel most connected with.. but sometimes I get unsure. She's quite quiet normally..she seem to like coming along and do stuff, but she's not volunteerily climbing up on my shoulder or so.. unless I have a treat. (except when I wrote my last post, then she came up to me).. she did at some point but maybe I've somehow taught her not to? Not sure how though because I appreciated it.

I read about the episode with the wild rats, fascinating  Alpha is a problematic word.. I think most of the issues when humans think of leaders, is that we think of power and leader as someone who makes others do stuff (like..writing an essay or fetching shoes..whatever) while animals just don't have that structure. Animals don't say ''bring me food''.... they can however say ''don't stand in my way when I'll eat the food you hunted" (be it dog or rat.. wolves don't quite have the alpha roles we've preiously thought either).. and if they're in a power position they'll be obeyed. But there's a differense between moving someone out of the way and making them do stuff for you.. as we tend to train animals to do stuff I think that's makes it complicated to think about a natural leader role. But I see what you mean, I don't have any good word either... we should invent one. But animals in general seem to have different ''leader roles'' depending on the task ahead... with rabbits for example, one rabbit might have the power to move another from a food bowl, but in another context, let's say chosing a resting spot, the moved rabbit becomes the one moving the first. A buck might be the one breaking up a fight, but he has nothing to say when one of the does want him away from a lookout spot...
Well..anyway.. I get your point. 

I don't have the same idea of strategy and time concept as you. I have no doubt that rats can solve problems, but I do not believe they have the same thought process and way of planning as humans. Most of our ideas, such as time, are social constructions... just an example as seeing time as linear (from yesterday to today to tomorrow) is a social construction. In some times it's been seen circular (I believe the belief system of reincarnation is an example).. This is just an examle which makes me believe that rats and animals do not think in the same manner as us. In your example she had a goal, and she solved the problem with you standing in her way. I don't see it as a sign that she has the same abstract thinking as humans. But this is probably quite unimportant, *we can both agree that rats are problem-solving, thinking creatures that live with complex social structures and are capable of forming bonds with other species (such as humans).*

We're coming back to the engage issue.. I seem unable to do so. I've tried.. I let them out, I sit for a while like in the video and when they seem to have explored most of the room I try to play with them. Calling, giving treats (which works sometimes) playing with my hands, or just trying to interact in any way like I've seen my friend do with her rats and I've done with her rats... but I just seem to annoy them or to be of no interest whatsoever.
Only in the cage will they show interest for me, and probably because I usually have treats (even though they don't always want treats but just want to check my hands and my scent). The exception is Zanie who sometimes comes to me outside the cage, but still not for play.
I've tried trick training with and without a clicker, to create some sort of interaction or bond. They probably just think I'm stupid and usually just go to sleep in a corner. I wake them up and they walk around for a bit but ignores me.. For most of them I'm probably just an annoying part in their life that tries to bug them.. 



> they don't like when I go about upsetting it for no reason, but if something new is fun, exciting or rewarding, they tend to go with the flow and have fun with it eventually.


 I seem unable to make it fun and rewarding.


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## Zanie

I really appreciate that you take the time to discuss it with me  
I think my number one problem simply is my inability to engage them in play or anything. I can't make myself fun and interesting for them.. I try to be like ''Hey, come play with me! Let's snuggle to watch TV, or play catch, or just do stuff!" And they respond with ''Ugh..." or ''No, leave me alone!"


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## Rat Daddy

Understanding time is simply the ability to predict events in order. Managing time is the ability to cause events to occur in a certain order. And in that regard rats both understand and manage time. Rats develop very interesting routines that might include patrol time, sleep time dinner time and play time. I had two rats that decided that play time should be 5 AM... and they would wake me up to play for about 15 minutes and then they patrolled off to finish their AM exploration. 10 AM was not play time however... I was supposed to be working and they were supposed to be sleeping and they got annoyed if I upset the schedule. Some rats are more time flexible, but some rats really get hung up on what should happen and when. Rats will adapt to change but it isn't as easy for some as others.

One of the big problems people have when interacting with rats is that they can't see what they don't expect to see. Most people would assume that a rat would get lost outdoors for example or a well socialized rat would follow you. In the following vid, I'm out with my daughter and Fuzzy Rat. Do keep in mind she was exceptional, but all rats have similar abilities.

https://vid.me/BzNQ

Notice how she understands that I want to go back to the car, then how she leads me and waits for me to follow and catch up and how she communicates that she wants to be picked up. There's a constant dialogue going on between us even though it is subtle. She understands me perfectly and I understand her completely. I'm not saying we could have a conversation about physics or we could read each other's minds, but we would sometimes disagree or agree and became expert at predicting each other's needs, desires, behaviors and even emotional responses. 

Fuzzy Rat learned at a very young age that humans were sentient and that she could communicate with us, actually she figured it out well before I did... I finally got it when I realized that she was rewarding me for doing something she wanted. In fact she was training me. She engaged me, until I responded and then she replied and she always had a plan or a goal in mind.... Up until the moment I realized what was going on, I didn't think it was possible, so I didn't see it happening. 

It's strange, but we don't approach situations with an open mind. We have preconceptions that determine how we see things. If we don't think rats can grasp time, we don't see how they manage it. If we don't think that rats can navigate long distances, we won't let them lead us back to the car from the playground. If you think your child is unintelligent, you won't send her to college and she won't ever become a philosophy professor. The biggest handicap Fuzzy Rat faced was actually me trying to keep her safe. Mostly she had to figure out ways to get around me to do what she wanted. After she escaped and came back a few times, we got used to her going off to explore on her own, not happy about it and always concerned, but she proved she could do it. Similarly, when you don't see a rats behavior as communication you fit it into your mental construct as something else and don't respond. Your rat realizes you don't get it and stops trying to communicate. And you wind up sitting in your chair watching your rats do their thing while they watch you doing yours.

I'm older and likely not all that playful, but when I lay down on the cold kitchen floor our rats know I want to play. It doesn't happen all that often, but they get that it's play time and they come out and romp on me. If I'm laying down under a blanket however, our rats get that it's my nap or sleep time and they leave me alone. Rats factor in many things when they communicate, words, body language, time, whether the TV is on, whether I'm typing on the computer, etc. in order to determine what they should do to interact with me or sometimes if they should leave me alone.

Just like you have made up your mind about what your rats are thinking and doing, they have similar opinions about you. And they are predicting what you want and how you want them to behave. 

Now, I'm going to address an interesting thing about humans.. we tend to stand back and wait to be invited. Back in the 1970's I went to a lot of clubs and there would be girls waiting for guys to ask them to dance and guys hanging around waiting for someone to talk to them... At the end of the night most girls and guys went home with the same friends they came with... I had a friend, and I might add that she was both attractive and a lot of fun to be with... but from the moment she went into a place, she would just grab someone to dance and by the end of the night she would be surrounded by a crowd. She was charismatic and constantly surrounded by a crowd... in fact, I don't recall her not being engaged (she always claimed to be engaged to someone no one knew) but she was always out with 20 or more other friends just having fun. She was fearless in social situations and people responded by flocking around her. I'm sure there were always other pretty girls around, sitting quietly at their tables not having much fun, but for the most part nobody noticed them... 

If you sit back and watch your rats, they will pretty much watch you in return, if you engage them, they will engage you back. You have to put yourself out there and change the rules and start a new dynamic. Sure, your rats are going to be very confused and perhaps a bit surprised, you are breaking the rules and changing their preconceptions and they are likely to resist at first, but you have to keep trying... grab a partner and drag him or her out onto the dance floor and just have fun. Fuzzy Rat was unique in that she was like my friend who had no social hang ups. She just went for it and dragged humans out of their shell...

In this photo she found a little girl who she wanted to meet... the little girl is confuse and apprehensive, but Fuzzy Rat is engaging her anyway.









I would often translate for Fuzzy Rat when we were outdoors or traveling together, she would walk up to people or point to people she wanted to met and I'd say "This is Fuzzy Rat, she's a highly trained fancy rat and she would be happy to meet you.." And people would be delighted and they would call their friends and groups over and large groups of adults and children would gather around her and she would be in her element.... She would climb from person to person giving kisses and have the time of her life... she made hundreds of friends because she engaged without reservation. 

This is actually Max in the photo during one of her rare outgoing moments doing a meet and greet but this will give you some idea of what it looked like...









You really can change the dynamics of your group, take your rats into an immersion space if necessary and get on the floor, bring treats and toys and mostly yourself and engage your rats, upset their little world but show them you can be fun... Basically say... "Hi, I'm a big friendly human, I want to be your best friend... lets play together!" If they resist, overcome their resistance by coaxing, prodding or dragging them out of their shells and get them to know you... 

I was very lucky to have randomly adopted the truly amazing and brilliant Fuzzy Rat who reached out and engaged me... Most rats aren't nearly as confident or outgoing as she was and most humans have to make the first move... First you have to understand what's possible and then you just have to get out of your comfort zone and do it...

The first rule in immersion, is that if no one does anything, nothing changes.

Best luck.


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## raindear

Zanie said:


> We're coming back to the engage issue.. I seem unable to do so. I've tried.. I let them out, I sit for a while like in the video and when they seem to have explored most of the room I try to play with them. Calling, giving treats (which works sometimes) playing with my hands, or just trying to interact in any way like *I've seen* *my friend do with her rats and I've done with her rats*... but I just seem to annoy them or to be of no interest whatsoever.


Ok, neither your rats nor your friend's rats were born knowing how to play or interact with humans. They had to be taught. Rats that were bred to be feeders may not even get a chance to learn to play as babies. Good breeders play with and socialize babies from an early age, feeder breeders not so much.

When you try to play with your rats, they run away perhaps think about it a bit and come back. Do you try the same move again, or do you try something new? Maybe for a period of 30 minutes or so you should retry the same move to see if they "get" it. If they don't get that move then you can try a new move for a while. Run a piece of yarn, fabric, or feather in front of them to see if they will chase it. Roll a ball across the floor to see what they do. Brush a tissue across their face and see what they do. But, whatever you do try it again and again to see if they get it before trying something new. Depending on their background it may take awhile, or they may never get it. Can you have your rats play with your friend's? They could learn from the other rats.

I have a dog that was rescued from a breeder mill. She did not know how to play. I tried many things, but only succeeded in frightening her. She has learned to chew on and play with stuffed toys from another of our dogs, but I have to be really careful when I see her playing with one. If I notice and say "good dog" or "having fun?", she will run away as if "no, I wasn't doing anything". Another game she has learned is a type of "fetch". I throw a treat to each of our dogs in turn and they try to catch or find it and gobble it down. They all get this game and love to play it, even to waiting their turn to get their treats. So, don't give up. Keep trying. Hopefully you will find something they react and respond to.


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## Zanie

Thanks for your replies, both of you.
I'll have to ponder about this a while


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## catty-ratty

So I read nearly this entire thread...I skipped through all passive aggressive mud slinging in the middle........

I've been mulling over immersion in my mind and thinking about how to approach this terrified rat that bit me the first night she was here. I don't mean nip, I mean she BIT ME HARD! Blood everywhere! If I wasn't more concerned about her safety than the state of my finger, I would have dropped her right then and there! 

I'm a new timer to the world of rats. I get on well with all types of animals and can generally win over their trust quite easily. But for some reason, I've felt awkward about approaching this terrified girl. 

Tonight, I finally decided to just go with my gut like I always have in the past. The thing is, I'm not really sure what just happened. Like I said, I've never had rats before, so I don't speak 'rat', so I don't know how to interpret this.

For a week, I let Tess get comfortable in her cage with the other 2 rats. I would interact with her through the bars, talk to her give her treats when she would take them. She let me give her quick pets on the head through the bars before running off. Then she started coming to the open door and stared at me when she didn't know I was watching. Last night, she was really comfortable playing out of the cage with the other girls, more comfortable than I've seen her since I got her. 

During play time tonight, Tess came out for a bit. I decided it was time to get on the same page with her. As delicately as I could, I grabbed her to bring her out. She didn't try to bite me again. I had her out and cornered in a box in the play area. She could see Anga running all over me and us loving on each other. I was also 'forcing' Tess to let me pet her. Easier to do when she was cornered. I kept getting in her face, trying to play with her, talking to her, petting her. I actually picked her up and forced her to let me hold her and pet her. She was all squirmy, trying to get down. I decided that we should have more room so I moved the cage and the girls out. When I got back, I told Tess it would be nice if we could be friends, that I'm not like all those creepy people who tapped on the glass at the pet store. That I just want her to be happy. 

I told her to think about it while I played a game on my phone. She went to check out my feet. A bit more of the same as before went on. Until she nearly got out of the play area! I picked her up and held her very close. She seemed to be trying to hide in my hands. So I wrapped her in a shirt and sang 'Mercedes Benz' by Janis Joplin and 'Dream a Little Dream'. She fell asleep burrowed in the shirt in my hands. I put the bundle down in my lap to see if she would leave. She didn't. So I put on a long sleeve button up shirt, tied it at my waist and the bundle in my shirt.

It only took about 30 minutes for her to end up in my shirt. That was about 3 hours ago. She seems to be pretty content in my shirt. She is less and less shy about me petting her. I've heard of bonding pouches. Have inadvertently been trust training with her???

I'm not sure if she is actually just comfortable with me, or is trying to hide from me in my shirt. She is mostly either in my arm pit or in the back of my shirt. 

I hope someone sees this and helps me understand what is going on. 

I'm going to keep talking to her and petting her. 

She doesn't seem interested in treats.


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## catty-ratty

Also, there has been no fear poo or peeing going on. It sounds like she might be bruxing........but not loud and continuous like Anga does. Just kind'a quietly.


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## catty-ratty

Peeking out


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## catty-ratty

I just put everyone to bed. Tess definitely seems much more comfortable with me now. We'll just have to keep working on it.


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## Rat Daddy

That's pretty much how immersion works... You sometimes have to be a bit pushy in a tender way to get through to a rat that doesn't understand that you are another sentient and feeling being. But once you you get the first spark of recognition your relationship can change almost instantly. 

And rat speak and human speak isn't very different when it comes to napping or cuddling together. 

Bonding pouches, rat burritos, ratoobs, snugly blankets and hoodies are fine tools to use in immersion to facilitate a more intimate experience. I don't think they are a good substitute for the immersion area or the long session, but within the general context of the immersion process it's perfectly fine to use whatever tools help you facilitate communication and bonding. 

Before immersion, most socialization methods were based on what humans thought about rats and techniques built on changing a rat's behavior. Immersion started out as a theory or perhaps philosophy that rats are intelligent, emotional and thinking social animals that could communicate and bond with each other and even humans. In other words that you could build a real relationship with your rats and that they could have one with you. This gives us a pretty large tool box to work with because you can adapt the process to your personality and your rats special needs. Every rat and every human is different and so each immersion is slightly different just like every human conversation and relationship is different.

Earlier socialization methods were often all about the techniques or methods, sometimes they worked with the right humans and the right rats and sometimes they didn't. In immersion, you engage your rat, you let him or her respond to you and then you reply appropriately, so you conversation can follow multiple paths to achieve understanding. You adjust your methods and techniques to fit your particular situation, your personality and your rat's needs. Because both you and your rat are adapting to each other and evolving your relationship throughout the process you're building a deep bond and a meaningful relationship rather than just trying to change a rats behavior. 

When I started out there were a few rat whisperers and a few amazing rats. Immersion is the "science" behind making everyone a rat whisperer and every rat amazing. Once it was common for people to wish that they had a real relationship with their rats, now it's almost taken for granted that they can and will. If trust training was focused on getting a rat to stop being afraid of you, immersion is focused on helping your rats to become part of your family.

All in all catty-ratty it looks like you are making great progress and have achieved a real break through. Nice job! It looks like you are on the verge of a beautiful friendship or rather a happy mixed rat and human family.

Keep up the great work.


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## catty-ratty

Just thought I'd give an update on my terrified rat, Tess. Although she is still some what skittish, she will let me pet her. A few days ago, she started giving me kisses. She comes up to see me when I come to the cage. She is still a bit timid and not big on being picked up, but we have come a long, long way since the initial immersion.

I just thought I would mention this if it's helpful to anyone...........

Tess was a feeder rat and I'm pretty sure an adult rat. This method is a miracle!


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## Samlovesnemo

I just got two young rats that are very skittish. All they do is hide in there houses, they won't even take treats from me or when I'm around. 
Would immersion do them any good or just stress them out more? 
I can't take them out of the cage without having to move there huts, and it would just freak them out..


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## Rat Daddy

If you do nothing, nothing happens and a month from now your rats will still be hiding in their huts. And that might be true in a year as well. And maybe they will start defending their huts by biting.... So that might not be the best plan....

You are going to have to stress out your new rats... no way around it. But the object to the exercise is to show them that you are nice and friendly and that you will protect them. You can even take them under a blanket with you in the immersion area. They are likely more afraid of their new home and wide open or brightly let spaces than they are of you. In fact, in a session or few they are lilely to huddle to you for protection and comfort.

So yes, immersion will help with very skittish rats. It will definitely freak them out at first. Your goal is to interact and be sweet, friendly and protective.... and use a blanket if necessary. When we started with Misty she bonded with me in just a couple of days, but she freaked out when I tried to take her out from under the blanket for almost six weeks. Shy and skittish rats can be a real challenge. Don't take it personally and don't be afraid to stress your rats as necessary. Stress is pretty much the way rats cope with change... likely true of humans too.

Best luck.

BTW, the irony of terrorizing your rats to show them that you are their friend isn't entirely lost on me... it seems so counter-intuitive. And it's going to stress you out too... but going off to college is stressful as is taking a new job, or dating or weddings.... No stress, no progress. Make sense?


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## raindear

Before I had heard of immersion, I had two little girls from a feeder breeder. Each of them hid in a tissue box with a clump of tissues blocking the opening. I spent about two weeks taking the tissue box into my lap and talking to the box for 45 minutes to an hour. Eventually, a little nose would appear in the opening and I would touch it. It would vanish, come back. I would touch it. After about 2 weeks I could pet the girls' heads. After about 3 weeks, I could remove the tissue box and play with the girls.

Then I got a biting, frightened feeder rat that had been refused as dinner. I read the immersion thread and started to work with Petey. In about 10 days we had resolved his biting issues, he knew I was not a boogeyman and we started making friends. I consider immersion a miracle approach. At first, you may have to drag them kicking to the circus, but eventually they will get that this/you are fun, and the adventure can begin. I have some of my story with Petey here: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?267114-I-m-not-sure-I-can-do-this. If you are interested. Wow, it's almost been a year, but it's been a great year.


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## Samlovesnemo

Rat Daddy said:


> If you do nothing, nothing happens and a month from now your rats will still be hiding in their huts. And that might be true in a year as well. And maybe they will start defending their huts by biting.... So that might not be the best plan....
> 
> You are going to have to stress out your new rats... no way around it. But the object to the exercise is to show them that you are nice and friendly and that you will protect them. You can even take them under a blanket with you in the immersion area. They are likely more afraid of their new home and wide open or brightly let spaces than they are of you. In fact, in a session or few they are lilely to huddle to you for protection and comfort.
> 
> So yes, immersion will help with very skittish rats. It will definitely freak them out at first. Your goal is to interact and be sweet, friendly and protective.... and use a blanket if necessary. When we started with Misty she bonded with me in just a couple of days, but she freaked out when I tried to take her out from under the blanket for almost six weeks. Shy and skittish rats can be a real challenge. Don't take it personally and don't be afraid to stress your rats as necessary. Stress is pretty much the way rats cope with change... likely true of humans too.
> 
> Best luck.
> 
> BTW, the irony of terrorizing your rats to show them that you are their friend isn't entirely lost on me... it seems so counter-intuitive. And it's going to stress you out too... but going off to college is stressful as is taking a new job, or dating or weddings.... No stress, no progress. Make sense?


That makes alot of sense! It's like trying something new or getting up in front of a class for a presentation, your nervous and scared at first but you settle into it and usually end up enjoying it.
Thanks! I will keep updated on my two angels.?


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## Rat Daddy

As new rat owners we want to make our rats feel at home and relaxed... We all want to be nice and supportive and not stress our new furry friends. And I suppose in a perfect world and with the perfect rat, that's the way it might be sometimes, but the world isn't perfect and as good rat parents we have to do what has to be done, even if it isn't the way we would like to do things. 

So... we just adopted a super shy little girl of our own and I've been making some progress with her under the covers and last night I got her out onto my desk and she started exploring a little, but then she fell off my desk and wouldn't come back... So today I sent Misty Rat after her, and Misty Rat herded her back to me, slightly worse for wear. In any event, our new girl Bunny was pretty terrified of Misty, but she attached herself to us like glue. I suppose it was a bit traumatic and painful... and not my first option... but she's learned the first most important lesson... Her humans are her friends and they are safety. She's spent the rest of the day napping on us. 

Misty Rat's not so certain she wants a new friend yet, she misses Cloud and I cleaned out her secret nest and we brought in Bunny and she's really not happy with me right now. This week has been a real trauma for her... but through stress and perhaps a little trauma, comes progress. It's all about keeping your eyes on the goal.

And yes, we'd love to hear how your angels progress. Everyone tells their story differently, every story is a little bit different and for every way to tell it, someone else better understands what to do and how to get it done.


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## Samlovesnemo

I made progress with my little beige girl, she enjoys sitting on my shoulder and hiding in my hair, she found this out by crawling up there on her own. She also enjoys being pet and comes to me for comfort. My little hooded on the other hand is much more independent and still not fond of me. I ended her session yesterday after her running around the bathroom like a crazy trying to get out she finally came and hid under my legs. I think she will be my challenge.


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## Rat Daddy

Some rats take more work than others. In fact when there are two rats, one almost always is more outgoing and the leader and the other more shy. It's all about progress and having fun while you get to know each other. Your bond and relationship will last your rat's lifetime, be patient and be engaging and your first immersion will become a fond memory for you and your rats to look back on.

Keep up the great work!


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## catty-ratty

An update on Tess:

She is now running up to me and jumping up on my chest for treats! If I don't have one in my hand, she patiently waits for me to get one out of the jar for her.
It's been slow going, but it has been soooo worth it!


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## Rat Daddy

I don't think there's a better way to describe the feeling you get when an immersion turns into bonding. Sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's frustrating and there's always that point where things are going sideways or backwards, but then when everything starts coming together.... yes... it's so worth it!

Great job!


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## Samlovesnemo

I have a question, should immersion be done 1 on 1 or with both rats?


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## Rat Daddy

If you are dealing with a rat that bites, it's always one on one. You can't let yourself be distracted when you are working with a dangerous animal. That's a recipe for getting hurt unnecessarily.

When dealing with normal rats it's pretty much up to you. Are you high energy? Do you multitask well? Some people have no trouble dealing with two rats or kids at once and enjoy the extra challenge. Other people don't handle two or more things going on at the same time very well. Usually one rat is more outgoing and one is more shy which makes it a little easier to split your focus, but there are no guarantees. We usually adopt one rat at a time, so I usually do one on one, but many people have done pairs or even groups. And I'm also older and prefer to focus on one thing at a time. But again, that's my situation and personality. I can easily see where someone younger who enjoys things on the more exciting side would prefer to work with multiple rats at once... 

I am of course assuming that the two rats already know each other and that you aren't introducing them to each other at the same time as you are doing immersion. Immersion is usually done before introductions are made between rats. Once the rats are bonded to you it makes them easier to handle during intros.

So I suppose, it's your call. 

Best luck


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## catty-ratty

catty-ratty said:


> An update on Tess:
> 
> She is now running up to me and jumping up on my chest for treats! If I don't have one in my hand, she patiently waits for me to get one out of the jar for her.
> It's been slow going, but it has been soooo worth it!


Last night, she jumped up on my shoulder for no reason at all. She is so much more relaxed than she was. 

Wondering if maybe she's getting used to the idea of living in a calm environment with love instead of being handled and shipped around like cargo. What ever the reason, I'm glad she seems happy now instead of being full of anxiety, worry and depression.


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## Samlovesnemo

catty-ratty said:


> catty-ratty said:
> 
> 
> 
> An update on Tess:
> 
> She is now running up to me and jumping up on my chest for treats! If I don't have one in my hand, she patiently waits for me to get one out of the jar for her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been slow going, but it has been soooo worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> Last night, she jumped up on my shoulder for no reason at all. She is so much more relaxed than she was.
> 
> Wondering if maybe she's getting used to the idea of living in a calm environment with love instead of being handled and shipped around like cargo. What ever the reason, I'm glad she seems happy now instead of being full of anxiety, worry and depression.
Click to expand...


I'm so happy for you! Your story gives me hope for my girls. I can't wait for them to be more relaxed and comfortable with me too.


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## catty-ratty

Samlovesnemo said:


> I have a question, should immersion be done 1 on 1 or with both rats?


With your other rat, do you think she might be more scared than the beige rat that is comfortable with you?

I think an independent rat will have it's own mind and make a decision about you pretty quickly: they either like you or they don't. But that doesn't mean she isn't terrified.

Tess was more terrified than any of the rats I have. (These are my first rats) When I brought her home, she pretty much hovered somewhere hidden away from everything and everyone. It wasn't until about a week later that she finally started nesting with the other rats. She wouldn't be away from them if I was around. I can see how this could be interpreted as independence. But, I think her environment was probably always changing. Different locations, no one cares about her, her friends would come and go with little time to bond. She was the oldest rat in the bin when I got her. All the other ones were young. I doubt she would have had any meaningful connections with rats, let alone a person.

I think it would be helpful to weigh the pros and cons of working with her one-on-one, as opposed to working with the other rat around.

If I personally were terrified of my new home and the huge person I don't know who seems to have complete control of my life, I would staying with the one friend I know I have. My focus would be sticking to her like glue! She is the closest thing I have to safety and protection from you.

If you took both of us into immersion, and my friend decides she likes you, I might feel abandoned by my friend, especially if she a new friend and cage mate. It might appear to me that my friend chose you over me. I think losing my friend to you would be more stressful than meeting you alone. If you have me alone, at least I know my friend is somewhere and hopefully I will see her again. I have to interact with you and pray like **** that you are an okay person who won't hurt me. I have no other choice!

_Or,_ I might see my friend playing with you and I might be relieved that you seem to be an okay, safe person. I would be more willing to have anything to do with you. But that would probably be if I'd known my friend and cage mate long enough to trust her.

If I were an independent rat, and the other rat was not a new friend, I might think my friend is deluded! If I'm independent, you have to convince me that you are worth my time! "I'm independent, I don't need you! Give me a reason to want your company! You're going to have to be pushy with me because I couldn't care less about you!" With this rat, I would think it wouldn't matter if another rat is around or not. For the independent rat, you and my friend might just be a good distraction for each other so I can check out this new place. "Yeah, you don't think there is anything here, but I _smell all kinds_ of things to check out! I don't have time for you right now so busy yourself with my friend!"

If immersion with both of them isn't getting you very far, then try them separate.

I would want to know with _reasonable_ certainty if my rat is an independent rat, or a terrified rat and then decide how to go about doing immersion.

My most independent rat, Anga, is also the most outgoing and bonded to me quickly, as in the second they handed her over to me at the pet store. She liked me instantly. She was a feeder rat, so I doubt she had any handling other than to move her from one bin to another. She uses her own mind to make decisions regardless of other rats, and sometimes me!

She never hid with the other rats. I rarely saw/see her nesting with them. She doesn't even play much with them. She mostly sees them when she goes to the cage to eat. The rest of the time she's lurking around the house. If she's not sleeping in one of her secret places or on my lap, she's harassing me by running across the key board or in any other way she can think of to get my attention. If she's not doing that, she harasses the dogs and cats! She plays tag and wrestles with the dogs and cats, stealing the cat food and hiding it from them.

Does your rat hide with her friend, or does she just go about her own business in the cage?

With Tess, immersion 1-1 was the initial break through. It was only in the first immersion with her that I 'forced' her to interact with me. Once she cuddled up and fell asleep in my hands of her own accord, it was pretty much the end of the first session. She agreed to going in my shirt to hang out for an hour, two hours? Then I put her to bed. Outside of immersion, I never 'forced' her. I only tested her comfort level, gently pushing her more a little at a time, with a few immersion sessions in between. Every morning, I gently 'tap-scratch' on the drawer of the night stand she and her best buddy moved into and softly call her name. Then I slowly pull out the drawer to give her a treat. Now, she's usually the first one poking her nose out looking for her morning treat. She has become more and more trusting of me a little at a time.

OMG! This is long, I'll push on in case it's helpful!

With my last two rats, I did immersion together. They were pet store rats, not sold as food. They were caged together in a pleasant environment far from being crowded. One rat, Pebbles, is very out going, but I wouldn't say she is independent. She is more optimistic. She came up to me at the pet store and showed interest in me first so I took her home along with her oldest cage mate, Tin-Shine. Tin-shine is shyer than Pebbles. At first she stayed clear of me. It didn't take long for her to start playing tag with me and running on me. She doesn't seem to like hanging out on my shoulder like Anga and Pebbles do, but she does like me, especially when I have food!

So, IMO whether you go 1-on-1 or in pairs depends on the rats' personality and how you feel about it. What does your gut tell you? That's usually the best indicator for me and usually proves to be right way to go! And only you know what your gut is telling you!

Good luck and let us know how it goes. 

I'd like to know what worked for you and what didn't. It might help me later with another rat.


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## Samlovesnemo

So my sessions today had there ups and downs. First I decided to take turbo out separately because last time I took them both out they fed off each other's anxiety. She was good, only venturing from my legs or sweater pocket a few times. At one point she almost fell asleep in my hands which is a big thing for her she normally squirms out of my hands and just tries to burrow herself somewhere. I kept her out for about 3 hours. And decided it was enough stressing her out, she only stopped breathing heavily a few times.

Next I took out echo and it was awesome! She opened up so quickly! Started running around the play pen and on me, in my shirt. She was trying to get out almost the whole time but I'm assuming that's normal lmao

After I took them both out together hopping echo would help turbo open up abit, and she did a tad, but once again rarely left the comfort of my legs.

There definitely doing better tho. 
I've had them out before but this is the only immersion session I've done. Aha 
Looking forward to tomorrow for the next session. Just wish turbo would chill out :/


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## Slimke

I am not able to read the full 51 pages, but need some advice.
I started reading, but things are not yet totally clear and I want advice for my own situation.

Next week I will get 2 rittens (youngsters) that are 6 weeks old by then. Once they are 200 grams or 12 weeks, they will be introduced to my 2 other girls, using the carrier method. 
My plan is to put their cage in the same room (living room), because my room is way too quiet, so they wouldn't get used to all the sounds. Also I am almost never upstairs. 
But they can smell and hear each other in the living room, without interacting. Is that really a bad thing?
At the breeder for example; females and males are also situated in the same room without interacting...

Okay, about one of the first posts. Is preening just washing? Or is it a bit different? And does it also involve scratching?

Okay, now my situation. I have 2 female rats who are skittisch. They are not so scared that we can't approach or hold them, but they get scared easily by almost anything (sound/movement/dog/etc.). Lilo likes to be scratched and cuddled for short periods of time, Luna is not really into it. I also actually never have play fights with them, I thought because they have never learnt to do it with humans, because when I try to provoke them, they want to turn away instead of play back. 
We tried getting them looser with forced contact, which is working a bit, but I still think my group is not yet balanced. 
What I also notice is that once every few months, they get thrown back by something. I don't know what is causing it, but then they are extremely skittish for a few weeks, scared by almost anything. 

I want to have less skittish rats and a better balanced group. Hopefully I will have 2 balanced groups of 2 until introduction time, so I will have a balanced group of 4. 
I know a few weeks probably aren't a lot to get them all balanced, but I definitely want to give it a shot and continue with my group of 4 to improve if necessary. 

Where should I start?
And does anyone have a vid of doing immersion with their rats? I am not totally sure I get the idea of it.
Thanks a lot in advance!


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## catty-ratty

From my understanding, immersion is going to vary from person to person and from rat to rat. 

It's also my understanding that immersion establishes you as the pack leader, protector and parent. It usually recommended to do immersion with your most outgoing rat, the leader, or which ever rat seems to be the dominant rat. After you are immersed with that one, then do the others. Once the 'follower' or less dominant rats see the first rat treating you as the pack leader, the others will be easier. 

As far as what immersion is, I'll explain it as I understand it and what worked for me with my terrified, abused rat and 3 of my other rats. I liken it to being kids at a play ground. You need to establish yourself as the one the other rats, or kids will follow. The one who looks out for everyone in the group and the person people look to in unfamiliar situation. 

With my rats, I played with them. I also got bossy with them. For me, that was picking them up and flipping them on their backs and tickling their belly. They would squirm away, run off and then run back, like playing tag. This seems to be how they play with each other. Play with them the way they play with each other. 

Watch what the dominant rat does. 

Preening is what they do when they are considering something. It looks like they are cleaning themselves, but it is brief. I liken it to the expressions we make or behavior we are unaware of when are thinking about something, trying to make a decision, like tapping a pencil, furrowing your eyebrows, biting on your own lip. 

I got a lot of behavioral information at this website. 

http://www.ratbehavior.org/

A YouTube video for immersion. In this video, they are dealing with an aggressive rat. The girl in the video is wearing gloves. If you don't have an aggressive rat, you don't need gloves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iEFAaPiH_0


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## raindear

I posted pretty much step by step, day by day the process I went through with Petey here: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?267114-I-m-not-sure-I-can-do-this. Looking at that may give you some idea. The thread is much shorter than this one. You can do immersion with more than one rat at a time if you are comfortable with doing so. A great deal of immersion is situational and case by case. It's all very personal and changes as each new thing arises.


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## Rat Daddy

I tend to believe that everyone does introductions differently, but I have noticed that in some occasions rats actually get more irritated and worked up when they are located in proximity to other rats that they can't get at. Perhaps, sometimes it might be a very good idea to let rats see each other through the cage bars, but I have more often seen rats go psycho killer crazy while watching other rats at a distance. My rats live pretty much free range in the house so I have a tendency to let them chase each other around until they work out their issues. For most people, especially people with breakable's, my method wouldn't work as well as some other people's more conventional methods.


When I was about 10 years old, I spent the summer on an ancient farm in Germany. One day I saw a mouse running across the cobblestone farmyard. I decided to chase it around playfully and suddenly it stopped and started printing itself. Naturally, as I had no intention of actually hurting the mouse, I also stopped and observed it. Then suddenly it bolted into a woodpile and was gone. I don't know why that particular experience stuck with me; perhaps, it was because it just didn't make any sense. Some years later when I went to college, it turns out that the behaviorist rat runners had noticed this behavior in their lab rats. When rats were confronted with new situations they often stopped and preened. The textbooks pretty much wrote it off as a stress response. I suppose, I pretty much went along with that until I started working with Fuzzy Rat. Fuzzy Rat traveled with us a lot and she experienced lots of novel situations and she did a lot of preen thinking. Fuzzy Rat sometimes did it several times a day. Generally, she would do something pretty much the same way a few times. Then when it didn't work, she would stop and preened think. After preen thinking she would suddenly change her entire approach and do something completely different. In the case of immersion preen thinking often occurs when a rat is about to change its mind or at least its tactics. Because we want our rats to change their minds about us during immersion, we want to encourage preen thinking. Perhaps, preen thinking is like pacing, or dishwashing or housecleaning for humans when they have a difficult decision to make. It does seem like an odd behavior, but I've seen it in every rat I have worked with from one degree or another.


Sometimes preen thinking does involve the ear scratching or other preening behavior but it usually occurs when a rat is trying to figure out a problem. It is usually punctuated by a sudden change in behavior after the preen think. I can't say that rats aren't thinking when they do their normal routine preening or they might be scratching at mites, the behaviors look very similar. The way to tell the difference is basically when they are doing it.


In short immersion is a method of socializing rats through communication. Rats are intelligent, emotional and social animals very much like humans or even dogs. We have a great deal in common and in fact we can bond to one another. The object of the exercise is first, to teach your rat that you can understand him or her, and then, hopefully, try to make yourself understandable to your rat. The second objective is to establish a healthy social order with you and the parental role. Some people prefer the term alpha. If you see alpha as meaning leader or protector or perhaps guardian, then it's as good a term as any. Without trying to recap 51 pages in one paragraph, basically you engage your rat, then you let your rat respond to you and you reply appropriately. By observing how your rat responds to you, you are learning a lot about his or her behavior and by replying to his or her response your rat begins to understand that you are sentient to and you are listening.


The first few pages of this thread pretty much lay out the theory and the basic practices used in immersion. Everyone really should start there. After the first few pages you will find examples, stories, videos and even debates on the topic. For some people, the first few pages will be all you need. Other people might read until they find an example that best fits their situation and other people might want to read the whole thread as it has become sort of a historical document on how immersion evolved.


Immersion is a guide not a cookbook. Every rat and every human are different, so every conversation is going to be a little bit different. Perhaps, think about it like dating. We might all agree on where a good date might start or how it might end, but every date it will be a little bit different. Some girls might prefer being taken to a Broadway show, others might prefer a camping expedition and every conversation is going to be different depending on the personalities of the daters. There is most likely a certain commonality between all successful dates but there's definitely no cookbook recipe. Basically on a date you engage your partner, you let him or her respond and then you reply appropriately. In certain ways that means the same thing for every date, but it will be executed differently every time.


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## Ziggurat

Oh.
My.
Lord.

I did it.
I read ALL 51 pages. Every post. It took _weeks_ of spare time... but it was worth it. 

First off, to echo what many others have said... thank you, Rat Daddy. I can already see that the techniques you posted here will be invaluable to me as a (hopefully) first time Mischief Manager. ; )

In September, my family may well be adopting a pair of babies. I say "may be" because I'm very allergic to cats and dogs. I'm hoping I can avoid it with ratties. I've found a breeder who understands my predicament. She's going to allow us to come in and I'll be able to handle some rats to see if I end up with a reaction. I want to do this before adopting any because (a) I can't have an animal in the house I'm allergic to and (b) it wouldn't be fair to the rats to bring them in and ship them back out soon after. I won't take prescription allergy medicine, and OTC medicines don't work for me for more than a couple hours (long enough to visit with friends who have pets).
I find rats adorable, though... so, fingers crossed.

We're waiting until September because we are going on a 2 week European vacation at the end of August, and it just wouldn't be fair to the rats. I have nobody who can reliably watch them.

All that said, when the time comes that we hopefully DO adopt them, I know that what you've posted here will be worth the time I invested in reading it all. So, thanks again.

Zig


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## Rat Daddy

You are most welcome Zig... I really hope you aren't allergic to rats, they make such wonderful furry best friends, it would sadden me if you couldn't share your live with one.

I don't know if this might help you, but I was once allergic to lots of things.. I mean my throat closed up and I couldn't breathe kind of allergic. I saw an allergist and got a series of shots to 'cure' me... I didn't much like the shots but they were worth it. I've been pretty much allergy free for 40 years now... 

Best luck.


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## Kamira

Hey Rat Daddy. I have two girls right now and am planning on adopting two boys this fall- do you have any recommendations for immersing my rats that I've had for a year? When I got them I didn't even know about immersion and now I fear it might be too late. They aren't scared of me, Navi will play 'chase the hand' but I've only been groomed a handful of times and only get bruxs and boggles when they are inside their cage. I'm going to try immersing them soon but I'd like to know what to actually look for. You mentioned in some of the early posts that its when everything seems totally different that immersion is complete. My rats aren't starting from a complete left field, so I am really having a hard time imagining what that would feel like.

I think my main issue is that the girls just sort of run all over me and don't respect me as the alpha rat. How do I establish that I'm the alpha rat? Recently, whenever I give Zhu-Li treats, she would try to run off away from me to eat them. It sort of made me upset so I just kept picking her up and putting her back in my lap. She eventually started squeaking when I picked her up, but no aggression. She did eventually get the hint and sit in my lap to eat her treat, and I skritched her neck while she ate it.

I did read to page 5, but these questions didn't seem to be answered and though I deeply respect and am a little jealous of Ziggurat, I don't think I could read all 51 pages XD


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## smoteymote

Ziggurat said:


> Oh.
> My.
> Lord.
> 
> I did it.
> I read ALL 51 pages. Every post. It took _weeks_ of spare time... but it was worth it.
> 
> First off, to echo what many others have said... thank you, Rat Daddy. I can already see that the techniques you posted here will be invaluable to me as a (hopefully) first time Mischief Manager. ; )
> 
> In September, my family may well be adopting a pair of babies. I say "may be" because I'm very allergic to cats and dogs. I'm hoping I can avoid it with ratties. I've found a breeder who understands my predicament. She's going to allow us to come in and I'll be able to handle some rats to see if I end up with a reaction. I want to do this before adopting any because (a) I can't have an animal in the house I'm allergic to and (b) it wouldn't be fair to the rats to bring them in and ship them back out soon after. I won't take prescription allergy medicine, and OTC medicines don't work for me for more than a couple hours (long enough to visit with friends who have pets).
> I find rats adorable, though... so, fingers crossed.
> 
> We're waiting until September because we are going on a 2 week European vacation at the end of August, and it just wouldn't be fair to the rats. I have nobody who can reliably watch them.
> 
> All that said, when the time comes that we hopefully DO adopt them, I know that what you've posted here will be worth the time I invested in reading it all. So, thanks again.
> 
> Zig


First of all, massive amount of respect for you. I'm still chugging my way through this.


Secondly - go more than once to see the rats or visit people with rats. Some people don't have a reaction at first but find, after a few times of repeated exposure, that they do.

I also know, because of the pee and their little nails lightly scratching, that you can get rashes and such and your skin might itch. It's not so much an allergic reaction so much as it is a skin sensitivity. You might consider, if getting ratties, that you've either provided a good way to file their nails, get them comfortable enough that you can trim them with clippers, and/or always wear long sleeve and such. If getting boys, I'd get them neutered as it will reduce scent marking. I'm not sure if spaying girls also helps with that or not in them.


GOOD LUCK! I really really hope it works out for you! Crossing my fingers (and also have a good vacation!)


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## Rat Daddy

Kamira,

Mostly immersion is used to initially socialize a rat, but it can be used to improve an existing relationship too. The problem is that relationships are based on experience and history. In your case it's the year you have already spent together. So basically you want to change your relationship, or rather improve on it. Which is going to take a little bit of effort and time on your part.

First of all I'd set up your immersion sessions as fun play time, bring treats and mostly bring yourself... get down on the floor with your girls and be fun and most of all have fun... then try to engage them in your activities around your home with you. You don't have to be oppressive to be the alpha, you just need to be the leader... a fun and engaging leader is a leader too.

Lastly, do keep in mind you have girls and girls like to explore and be independent. This is normal. Our girls spend most of their day free ranging the house or sleeping in one of their secret nests... then they suddenly pop up and overwhelm me, usually a couple to a few times a day... For the most part it's hit and run loving and sometimes they want to play for a while. Sometimes it's one on one and other times I get the whole coven, but a lot of the time I have no clue where they are... And basically that's the way I like it, even thought the rats are always around I can't spend the whole day playing with them either... so the relationship is to some degree the way they like it and the way I like it. 

To some degree you established the relationship you have with your rats as much as they have, so you are going to have to change the way you approach it as much as you want them to. Use the long session to announce that things are changing and then change things. It may take a bit of time, but things will change to the way you want them... rats are smart and they will follow your lead.


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## Estrid

Hello!
I have skimmed through the whole thread those last couple of days. I found it a bit late since I got my 2-month-old boys, Raz and Ruf, a week ago and I have already spent quite some time with them (although not something you would call immersion I guess).


On their first day at home, I had 2 one-on-one sessions with them (each session was 1 hour long) on my bed and even though Raz was a bit skittish and squeaked when I picked him up, they both were fine, by the end of the day they climbed on the sides of their cage to catch my attention and be put outside and they hid and wrestled under my shirt on day 2. I have to add that I had not put many things in their cage (which is quite modest) so they were more interested in what was going on outside. Unlike the guinea pig I had in my teens, those 2 boys seemed to be interested in me as soon as I put them in their cage (even Raz, who had diarheaed in the transport box during the trip from the petshop!)


Ruf quickly figured out how to leave his cage alone (the door is on the top... they need some ahtletic skills and boldness), how to jump from my bed and he explored my whole bedroom (which is also my living room and my kitchen, I live in a shoebox myself ^^) before finding a good hiding spot (the second mattress right under my bed!). Soon Raz learned to do that too (even though he was petrified at first when I had him on my lap and tried to make him walk on the floor, while Ruf was happily running around us in the room like a crazy puppy dog !) and they are now both free ranging in my place, hiding small pieces of cardboad (that I throw on the ground) in their hiding spot (little thieves they are!).




First I gotta say that, even htough I don't understand all the things I read on this thread about immersion, from what I experienced with my rats (who seem to be quite healthy and curious even though they come from a petshop), I am pretty convinced that you don't need to spend the first few days not interacting with your (healthy) rats, watching them from outside their cage.
I like the idea of trying to spend as much time as you can with them and to engage them to get them used to you. It worked fine with me, I don't think I have traumatized my rats, on the contrary !
Besides, I stumbled upon that (old) youtube video yesterday : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neA7tl6H94M
The girl describes a situation you have already stated several times, Rat Daddy. She's got 2 "decent" rats from a petshop that she's put in a very nice cage and she did not dare to really interact with them for several days. They started biting her to be left alone in the comfort of their cosy house !



Second, I think I am past the immersion thing, but I've noticed that even though my rats don't seem to fear me and let me pet them and tickle them on the back, they won't sit still, and they won't really snuggle with me or groom me (unless they smell food on my skin), even less sleep on me or let me strach their belly (unless I grab them to do so). 
Ruf (the lighter one) is a real explorer, he is quite hyper, always on the move.
Raz (the brown and white one) is more reclusive, less bold, more « brutish » and always up for food ! (he is also quite the rodentist unfortunately -_-).

I took a video of a typical playtime on the ground as I was wondering if they only saw me as a big moving furniture (the vending machine is not an option as I rarely give them treats, I actually tend to give them yummy food when they are in their cage, so that I can calmly eat my own share without being harrassed by ratties climbing everywhere on me !).
Here it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2npr3oz_G7Q
Suggestions welcomed


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## Rat Daddy

Thank you for posting your video, and yes that's what rats who have been with you a for a week should look and behave like. Immersion began when a very special rat came to me for attention and simply refused to give up trying to communicate when I didn't understand her. There were a lot of popular competing theories about rats around at the time. Some held that rats were overall simple stimulus response organisms that responded only to reward and punishment... Yes everyone responds to reward and punishment, but we are all a lot more than that. Some folks held that rats couldn't actually bond with other species and they would never see humans as "other rats" or as creatures they could interact and communicate with. Well I can't say if rats see humans as other rats, but they can and will interact with and communicate with and even learn to understand us. I think early on a lot of people resisted this idea. In your video, to be honest, it looks like your rats are interacting with you as much or even more than they are interacting with each other, which is a great thing. Your rats may not be constantly snuggling with you, but rats don't go around constantly snuggling with each other either. Basically they are staying near you, keeping an eye on you for guidance and security and exploring their home just as rats are meant to do. 

People often get the alpha rat thing very wrong. An alpha rat is a parent to it's clan, an elder in human terms and perhaps a wise friend. Alphas do break up fights, set boundaries for anti-social behaviors and keep social order, but they are not military officers or dictators that are followed blindly and obediently. You might say their suggestions are highly valued, but not necessarily obeyed. Any good parent can tell you what that's like... 

In developing immersion methods and practices, basically the idea was to facilitate interaction and communication. I developed different strategies for rats with different backgrounds and with different emotional issues. For screwed up biting rats, the first priority was to establish a healthy social order with the human in charge and to get the channels of communication open. By fixing the social order and getting neglected or confused rats to understand you were their friend/parent, they became more confident and relaxed and happy. It really is amazing how fast some real problem rats turn around. But mostly my goal was to build great bonds and interdependent relationships with normal rats. You may or may not have noticed that you are starting to pick up on your rats cues too and they are beginning to make you happy when they are with you.... And yes, believe it or not, you are bonding with them as much as they are bonding with you. Bonding and communication goes both ways.

Leaving rats alone in their cages to acclimate felt like a terrible idea to me... If you rip a rat away from it's family and home and take the terrified intelligent animal and lock it into a strange cage in a strange place and leave it alone to imagine the worst it's only going to get more frightened and anti-social. If you are there to be it's friend and protector through the traumatic change, it will appreciate your kindness for the rest of it's life. This otherwise traumatic experience is a once in a life time opportunity to begin building a bridge of trust. And I think you did that very well.

Immersion is based on a theory that rats and humans can communicate and bond and understand each other and that both species need some social interaction and order... Strangely, it seems pretty simple now. But, as you can tell from some of the posts back in this thread that was once very controversial. Some people claimed that we were going to create a population of rat zombies... Which obviously never happened... not one single brainwashed zombie rat was ever reported. 

Basically, once the human (and rat) gets the idea behind immersion, the practice becomes very flexible, especially with normal rats. Everyone seems to tweak the procedure to their own particular rats, their own personality and their own particular circumstances... and it still works, a little faster or a little slower, but the results are just about always the same. When I started out, there were a few "rat whisperers" who had amazing rats and special relationships with them, now it's common for people to not only want, but have that kind of special relationship with their amazing rats. And I can't say how proud I am of this community for the effort they put in to build special relationships with their rats and build mixed human and rat families. It's easy to keep a small animal in a cage, but it takes a lot of effort and time to integrate them into your life and home. I think it's well worth the extra work and it's immensely rewarding when you accomplish it both for you and your rats. When I first introduced immersion, I really wondered if people would care or even want a special relationship with their rats and the response from and progress made by people all over the world still gratifies and impresses me.

So where do you go from here? That's up to you. Our young rats like to play toilet paper tug of war, unlike dogs, you have to let them win and steal the toilet paper so they can hide it or build nests with it... unlike dogs your rats really want the toilet paper, thinking they are stealing stuff from you is more than half the fun for them. You can integrate your rats into you daily activities more and you can find challenging things for them to do with you. Like humans rats learn all of their lives and they become smarter and more competent as they are exposed to new situations.... So how far can you go?

I suppose I tested that with the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat, the actual rat co-founder of immersion....

We took Fuzzy Rat to the park, where she loved to hang out in trees and munch tiny leaves and swing in the breeze...








We took her to the beach and all over the place and she loved to meet new people and make new friends...









She liked to take walks with me and go places...








And yes, that tiny white dot is her going back to the car on her own... She did like to explore on her own.








And she ate dinner with us...








And she loved to snuggle with my daughter...

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









And even after she got sick and was more tumor than rat, she still liked to lay in the sunshine in the grass and pose for photos...








Fuzzy Rat was truly amazing, She had a passion for hard liquor and beer and she was the life of any party. She learned many human words and she lived a remarkable life. Most rats really can't live this kind of a life, but some rats can... When dog walkers at the park used to boast about how much smarter their dogs were, I'd remind them that our rat wasn't on a leash, came when called and walked at heel... and fit into my coat pocket.... Restaurants used to give her special treats and we were often mobbed by children and adults wherever we went. At her farewell public appearance, when she was dying... children that had known her teared up and cried... Despite not being able to walk anymore she entertained the public for almost six hours that evening and we didn't take her home until almost midnight.

Taking rats outdoors is a great way to get them killed or lost... this is a very dangerous thing to do! But Fuzzy Rat was very special and we trained and tested her as we went along and no matter the challenge she thrived on it... She lived for the adventure and she would wait at the front door to be taken outside. If she didn't get excitement and adventure, as in the winter, she would trash the house out of boredom...

So my advise is just to let your rats evolve with you an to never underestimate them... You most likely never should take them outside to the kinds of places we took Fuzzy Rat, but don't sell them short either. Fuzzy Rat was a rare animal, perhaps one of a kind, but her life inspired immersion and hopefully her example will help give you some ideas of what your new little friends can grow up to be...

You have done a great job so far, keep up the good work and most of all just have lots of fun with your best furry friends.

Play safe and best luck!


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## StormWolf

I've read several pages of this. I'm still a little confused I guess. The video helped a bit as I am much more of a visual learner. I like to see things done as to reading them.

I got two 5 week old girls about 2 weeks ago from a feeder breeder who also breeds colors for pets. A standard black and white (Panda) and a black dumbo berkshire (Onyx). Before i found this thread I read that I should let them decompress in a semi low traffic area. So I kept them in a smaller transport cage in the kitchen. Any time i was in the kitchen that day I would chat with them and attempt to feed them treats. They were to frightened to leave the hidey i made for them. With more reading it said to put them in an enclosed, safe space and interact with them for 30 to 40 minutes. The only suitable place was my bathroom/tub. So I set out and it seems to be going well...with Onyx. She's still a bit flighty but doesn't try to get away when I pick her up. She allows me to hold her for a short time period and allowed me to flip her over and rub her belly...a bit apprehensive but allowed it.

Panda is much more skittish. She will come to the cage door for treats and seems excited to see me when i come home from work but her nature doesn't reflect that outside of the cage and tub. Inside the tub it takes her about 15-20 minutes to "warmup" but she will climb all over me and investigate. When i make a move to pet and give affection she scurries away.

Last night during our session she was walking the rim of the tub and fell out. I put my hand down and called to her. She hid under a rolling cabinet and would not come to me. She explored the bathroom but still wouldn't come close. Finally I got out of the tub and had to do things the hard way. She didn't squeak or bite but it was like trying to catch a terrified bar of soap.

Today I decided to move them to the large cage that will be their home. I did about a 30 minute session in the small room. Onyx, naturally was the first to come out and see if i had any goodies. Panda explored a bit an then hid until i fished her out at the end of the session. I tried calling to her and offering sunflower seeds. Nothing.

Am I doing this right? I don't want to frighten them and make things worse.

Neither are aggressive at all. Any tips? Also....what is a general time frame of how long immersion should take? I don't want to push to hard an regress.

My Rats in the past were already very human oriented so this is all new for me.


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## Rat Daddy

Short of physically hurting your girls you aren't going to make them regress. Otherwise any and every interaction is good. They have to get used to being picked up and handled and they have to learn that you are the huge friendly strange looking rat in the room. That doesn't mean they will always agree with your intentions. Girls love to play and explore and sometimes you have to be the bad parent that puts them back in the cage or sets limits... Sometimes when they feel you are headed in the wrong direction they aren't going to follow your lead or come to you... that's normal. Just because all of our rats understand the come command, that doesn't mean they always do it. At bed time when I want the girls in the cage, sometimes they evaporate... they know exactly what I want, but they would rather sleep inside the furniture or in their secret nests. And this is part of communication too. Just because your mom wanted you to eat your veggies didn't mean you ate them first or even at all when you were a kid.... But you understood what she wanted, even if you didn't do it.

The purpose of immersion is to break the ice and to open the channels of understanding and communication. Basically to get your rats to realize that you are a sentient and interactive being like themselves. This becomes the foundation for everything else you do with them. Once they realize that your noises and behaviors have meaning and you are family they are more likely to listen to you. But that's where socialization moves into training. I've known perfectly socialized rats, especially girls that are very independent and commonly ignore commands. They are sweet and friendly and will steal food right out of your mouth and they will come and play regularly, but on their own terms. They are perfectly socialized. even if they aren't well trained. On the other hand, I've seen rats that don't even realize that humans can communicate with them or that their behaviors mean anything to their humans... I've even seen rats that get aggressive or defensive around humans and regard them as enemies... naturally rats in this state of confusion can't be trained or often even handled.

To be honest, I've also met humans that don't realize that their rats can understand them and don't even try to socialize them or train them... They keep their rats in cages and handle them with gloves... this knife cuts both ways.

It sounds like you are making progress. Some rats don't like taking treats from humans... For some reason Spot will sniff a treat and then wait patiently until we put it into his bowl before he eats it. I have no clue how he learned this odd behavior. He'll make an exception for chocolate though. He'll take that and eat it right away. Everything else he wants put in his bowl. It would be easy to say he wasn't treat motivated or that he doesn't like us because he won't take treats, but this is most certainly not true. He just thinks that he has to wait for the food to be put in his bowl. He thinks he knows the rules and he's trying to be a good boy and follow them... How we taught him this behavior escapes me at the moment, maybe someone swatted him back when he tried to take food before it was put into his bowl once and now he thinks he always has to wait... Part of learning about your rats comes from observing them and trying to understand what they are doing or telling you. Rats are consistent and over time you will understand them more and more.

As to skittish.... this depends on how your rat is wired. We had a part wild rat once, she was wired for fight or flight. Someone turned on a light in the other room and the click would send her several feet into the air and she would evaporate into the shadows before she ever hit the ground. Eventually she leaned that a light switch wasn't anything to be afraid of, but any new sound would freak her out. She was perfectly sweet and friendly however. Naturally it took more time to train her and work with her because of the way she was wired, everything took getting used to and patience. The truly amazing Fuzzy Rat was wired cool, nothing spooked her, she was almost completely fearless. She was very easy to train and work with, pretty much just like a dog. 

Please don't be too concerned... skittish rats will come around and are just as smart and loving as calm ones, they will get used to you and your home and become great furry friends, but they will take more time to do anything with. Of the 4 rats we have now, two are wired cool and two are tweaky. If I clap my hands, Spot and Misty are likely to come to me while Bunny and Lucky disappear into the wood work. Bunny is calming down a lot already while Lucky will only appear when things are perfectly quiet. Even TV upsets her. Once everything is quiet, Lucky will come out and be very playful and hand wrestle and climb all over me... usually late at night. If the TV is on, she won't be found anywhere. Again we're working with her, but it is going to take a lot longer.

In my experience, the true nature of rats is to be skittish. It helps them to survive in the wild. Perhaps it's also natural for some rats to be more intrepid, which is what makes them alphas and pack leaders. Although behavior in rats is to some degree genetic, I've seen both hot and cool wired rat pups in the same litter. So in any given group of rats you are likely to have both types. I might add that hot and cool is a matter of degree and isn't black and white. Perhaps I should say hotter and cooler, instead? 

So take you time and try and do long sessions so your more skittish rat has more time to get used to you and to overcome her fears. Don't worry too much about stressing them out. Stress is good, to a degree. It's when we are stressed that we lean and adapt the fastest. And unlike humans rats deal with stress very well. They run or fight or hide or cope and adapt, they don't carry it around with them forever like humans do. So stress is a natural part of the socialization and learning process for rats... again up to a point. 

How long does immersion take? Is a great question, but it depends very much on you and the way your rats are wired. Some humans are very laid back and they kind of let things move along slowly giving their rats more time and space to explore and that takes longer, but it can be a lot of fun if that's your style. Some humans, kids especially, are very hands on and impatient and really push the interaction process along much faster. And some rats are calm and respond quickly to human interaction while some really skittish rats can take what seems like forever to return your efforts to engage them. Immersion can take as little as an hour or it can take the best part of a whole day, sometimes longer if the rat was mistreated, abused or neglected. But in the end, it just about always works out really well.

I don't know if I ever posted this case, but it was the record longest immersion ever. A young lady adopted a pet rat, but she was actually rat phobic. She was absolutely terrified of her new pet and was afraid to handle him. So as she couldn't touch him someone convinced her to adopt a friend for him, so now she had two rats she was terrified of. So she wrote me for help.

I managed to get her and her rat into the immersion area. She wore several layers of clothes, and oven mitts and covered herself in a blanket and set her rat free. She texted me from under the blanket... And this went on for days, perhaps a few weeks.... Then I got a series of distress texts... she was frozen (except for her thumbs) shaking all over and crying profusely and under attack from her rat... it was trying to get under her blanket.... every sentence started with "help!" Then the rat succeeded in getting under her blanket.... she couldn't move.... Then I got a message that it was "tasting her" I finally convinced her that her rat was actually licking her and was being friendly. And I got her to try petting him.... She finally worked up the courage and tried and when she finally got her oven mitts off she got her hand licked. And within just a few more hours, she managed to get out from under the covers and pick him up and hold him. She finally realized her rat wasn't her enemy and that he was reaching out to her and she finally got over her fear and responded and he replied by showing her lots of affection. Imagine how happy the rat was when his human finally responded to him. She became best friends with her rat and they lived happily ever after, immersion complete.... Oh yes, I almost forgot about the other rat she was afraid of... She took in a roommate who wasn't afraid of rats who had no problems handling and playing with him. And the two humans pretty much cared for one rat each. And the heroine of our story eventually managed to be able to handle the other rat, up to a point too.

I know this is an odd story about a reverse immersion, where a rat actually immersed a human. But I'm posting it as kind of an insight to how a rat feels when you immerse him or her. It's pretty scary at first and it's stressful, but then there comes a point where the rat realizes the human is trying to reach out and communicate and is friendly and everything changes. Apparently it takes a lot longer for a rat to immerse a fearful human than the other way around...

Basically, you are making progress with every session, there has come or will come a change when your rats begin to understand that you are sentient and a friend and that you are communicating with them. Usually there's a marked change in behavior when that happens. That said, with girls they will typically enjoy exploring and adventuring as much as being with you. And every rat will have it's own personality. One may always be on the skittish side while the other will be a lap rat. Some days they may play with each other more, and some days they will want to play with you all day. But they won't be afraid of you and they will learn to understand you and you will learn to understand them. Remember, right now you are working to get through the fear and build bridges of communication and understanding, then you start on name training and teaching them to come etc... With time and exposure your most skittish rat will become more calm and confident, and that can take a very long time, but you absolutely can't change a rats personality, you can just teach it to become less fearful of you and sounds, smells and sights of your home.

The last tip I'll give you is to have fun with immersion. Be engaging and playful, your rats understand play and fun. Whether it takes an hour or a few days, don't make it a race or a chore, your rats will feel that too. Try to be interactive and friendly and enjoy the process. It's OK if you don't understand your new rats right off and if they don't understand you yet, that's normal. Don't get frustrated and don't overthink things, immersion is a natural process. You want to be your rats friend and they really want to become part of your family, even if they don't know it yet.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress.

Best luck.


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## experimentallain

so ive realised i messed up when i got my rats. I went off the info I found on the internet + the info I got from a breeder last time I got rats and left them to settle in, limited first interactions to short bursts so as to "not stress them out", etc etc.

I've had them about three months (i think? time is difficult for me) and just recently have i started spending lots of time with them, as before i was scared i'd traumatise them with love i guess haha. They dont cuddle on my lap or brux or groom me, but they sit happily on shoulders and are fine with petting and being picked up (and even climb happily into my hands from their cage) and such. I'm trying immersion type situations with them individually to try and bond with them better, is it still a good idea? I feel like it is. 

The other thing is I think the home they came from wasn't great. Wasn't abusive but was definitely neglectful and ignored that they were real living critters rather than something to look at occasionally. They came to me not bitey but super frightened and not at all recognising that people were a thing love could come from. (they also werent fed properly so my main goal when I got them was to bring their weights up). They also seem to tune me out when I talk?? Hm.

Either way I am so so glad I came across this thread this just makes so much more sense for ratty introductions and such than other things did.


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## Rat Daddy

Sometimes it's harder for humans and rats to change once we get into a rut. We get used to the way things are and don't see the benefits of things being better, at least at first. So once you have a certain relationship with your rats, it can sometimes take a little longer to improve it than had you established it on the right footing in the first place. My dad worked days, my mom worked nights, they lived pretty independent and separate lives for a few decades, other than weekends. Things got interesting when they retired and had to actually see each other every day.... but they worked it out in time.

If rats get used to being ignored, they learn that those are the rules and often resist "too much" attention. But not to worry, they come around too. You can and will improve your relationship, but it will take a little bit of time. Your rats are used to the way things are and are going to resist change as they don't understand what's going on. In time they will adapt to the new and improved situation in your home if you are consistent. Rats that have never been let out of a cage often get terrified when you let them out for the first time and run back into their cage. They think they aren't supposed to be out of their cage, so something has gone terribly wrong. But just about every rat learns to explore and free range eventually. The longer a rat has been locked inside a cage the longer it's likely to take before it free ranges on it's own. Similarly, the longer your rat has lived by the rules of your house, the longer it will take for your rat to adapt to the new routine.

When someone adopts a new rat, all of the old rules from the old home go out the window and the rat or rats have to learn all new rules, this is always the best time to get off on the right foot and to be there hands on comforting your new rat and helping to make all of the changes less scary. Establishing the rules once and defining your relationship up front is always easier than changing things later on. Imagine finding out that someone is or isn't your mom after you have lived half your life with them. If you've been the maid for six months, bringing food and cleaning and now you want to be their mom, you should expect a little apprehension from your rats when you try to change the relationship. But again... rats adapt, especially when things get demonstrably better for them. It kind of goes from why is the maid hugging me? To hugs are nice and eventually, to thanks for the hugs mommy... Rats do understand relationships. Our rats love hugs and snuggles from my daughter... their mom, less so from me... mostly they want things from me, food, water, security etc... I'm more of their dad and for the most part they don't want to be touched by strangers at least until they learn that strangers can be friends. If you want to be treated differently you have to occupy a different role and be consistent about it.

When people talk around their rats and not to their rats, rats learn to tune out what people say. I mean people are constantly making noises, most of which aren't relevant to their rats, so why bother to listen? Mostly our rats tune us out too, unless I start a sentence with their name. As in "Misty come here." I might use the word come a hundred times a day and the word here just as many, but most of the time I'm not talking to the rats, so they learn not to respond unless 'come here' is associated with their names... It's like being in a crowd of people talking, mostly you ignore everyone around you until you hear you name called. But rats do listen, they mostly just don't understand or react. Most rats learn about a dozen human words, some may learn a few dozen, perhaps some learn more... But humans use words in context. For example for us a chair is a place to sit... rats pretty much don't need or use a chair to sit. Fuzzy Rat learned the word "chair", but to her "chair" was the one in my office. Therefore every other chair needed a different name... She couldn't understand the logic in the idea that chair was a place for humans to sit, I mean it wasn't a place for her to sit... so she didn't understand the similarity in one chair to another based on her own experience. Humans are likely to be able to tell the difference between chair and foot stool based on whether we rest our feet or butts on it. To a rat both are equally the same and equally different. So chair, footstool, desk, table, sofa and bed are equally ambiguous in terms of how rats use them. If you manage to teach a rat "chair" don't be surprised if it runs to that particular chair every time you tell it 'go to chair'. Remember, rats see the world differently than we do and they group things and generalize differently, so you have to take that into account when you work on more sophisticated communications.


When I taught Fuzzy Rat not to slice a wire, she would leave that one alone and slash another... unfortunately there are lots of wires in our house... but to her No cutting wires" meant that one particular wire.... On the other hand Max understood that she shouldn't cut wires in general... so different rats do see things differently and understand humans differently which can also add to the confusion.

Don't give up and keep up the good work.

Best luck.


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## experimentallain

how do I go about talking to a rat that's learned to tune out everything humans say? I've been trying with Winston tonight for about an hour so far (after a two hour session yesterday) and still no real response to his name. However he ended up super set on climbing to the back of my neck just before! at first i was worried he was trying to jump off the chair like he had been previously but I ended up letting him go, and he started grooming me for the first time ! He just really wanted to groom the back of my neck apparently. I'm just so excited and happy! He groomed me for literally five minutes before stopping.


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## StormWolf

Rat Daddy, thank you so much for your reply! I've read many of your posts and what you posted makes me feel so much better about how this process is going! I know I need patience and time but I'm just so eager to have a squishy rat friend to hold and play with!

A small update: My session last night started out with Panda. I took her by herself for the first 30 minutes. I don't think she is as frightened of me as i first thought. She is very exploitative and I think most of her attempts at getting away are just for that reason. She did come to me several times and even sat on my shoulder for a minute or two. She did attempt to escape my barrier a few times. I feel like the moving them to the large cage was a great choice. Panda seems less nervous and doesn't skitter away when i reach in to pick her up. However still seems hesitant to accept affection outside of the cage.

I'm guessing baby rats are like most baby animals? The desire to play and explore is usually stronger than the desire for cuddles and affection for most young.


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## Rat Daddy

We've had several girls that didn't/don't cuddle or snuggle for more than a few seconds at at time. They will play fight and hand wrestle and ride around on me, they will even nap next to me on my desk or in my top drawer, but when I skritch them they slink off. Some girls don't snuggle until they get old and comfortable in their own skin. On the other hand our part wild girl who you would think should have been the least snugly, would just nap in my lap sometimes for hours. 

There's no hard and fast rule... some girls wake up and their feet just start moving. They play, climb and explore pretty much until they fall asleep again, and that's perfectly normal for them. That's not to say they don't show affection, they will bound all over you or climb on you and lick you and sniff you and explore you and preen your teeth.... It's kind of hit and run loving. And these kinds of rats can be a lot of fun too. It comes down to understanding your rat and the way it is and the way it communicates, rather than what you would think you want your rat to be or how you think it should act. You should always offer snuggles and affection, so your rat knows they are available, but don't get offended if the world is full of really cool smells and important places to go and things to explore. 

Think about it like raising kids, some kids become great momma's little helpers or momma's boys while some kids are always out playing in the woods or sandlot... or these days, lost in cyberspace. It's not that one kid loves you less, it's just that each kid will be different and as a parent, you have to learn to understand their personality.

By understanding your rats better, you give them more of what they need and they love you more for it. Once a rat comes when called you can take it more places and it can have more rather than less freedom. When it's more free to explore, it's more likely to come and play with you too. Actually, even very independent rats will sometimes come to you when you need a hug. Somehow they will learn your moods, and they will even learn to avoid you when you are busy or in a bad mood. Rats are very intuitive animals.

I think your rats are beginning to understand you better, and I think you are starting to understand them too. And that's really great. The more you interact with them, the better they will learn what you want from them and the better you will understand what they need to be happy too. I think being a parent is part raising your kids to who you think they should be and part letting them be who they are. It's kind of a balance that involves setting certain limits and gentle persuasion. On the other hand it also has a lot to do with accepting their personalities. I have a friend with two kids, one is going to medical school and the other one paints houses. She's very proud of both, but some parents might not be so understanding. She recognized early on that her kids were different and did her best to help each one to be successful. Likewise as a rat parent you encourage your rats interests as best you can within certain limits. One might become attached to your shoulder, while the other will only show up a couple times a day for a little hit and run loving. 

Fuzzy Rat was brilliant, she loved meeting new people and going places and doing things and hanging out with us... she was like the head cheerleader honor student every parent wants. Then Maxie Rat came along, and she didn't much like people or going places and she would hunker down in dark places and brood for days at a time... she was like the strange goth girl no parent can understand. Still every now and then Max would do a meet and greet and be very charming with people and sometimes Max would come out and play and snuggle with us and she was really great. You just never knew when... but when it happened it was extra wonderful because it was uncommon. Don't get me wrong, Max was smart too and a very competent true shoulder rat. To give you an example, when we went to the park, Fuzzy Rat would walk right up to people to meet them and chase kids around the playground. Max would hunker down in a small tree and wait to go home... One day she was roosting in a birds nest and a little boy asked why our rat was in a birds nest, I explained she was hatching her eggs... I wish his fourth grade teacher a lot of luck explaining that to him.... Then Max would get bored and hike back to the car on her own... Both Fuzzy Rat and Max could find the car without help... but they were different in every way. Sure we would have wanted a second Fuzzy Rat, which was never to be, but we got Max instead and Max was a great rat too. There was no way to make Max into Fuzzy Rat. The more we tried the more unhappy Max got. But once we began to let Max be Max, things got better for everyone. On the flip side, Fuzzy Rat got bored and slashed wires and trashed the place, while Max never damaged anything in the house, never stepped in my keyboard and would actually push stuff that fell on the floor into a neat little pile to be picked up. Fuzzy Rat loved chaos, while Max loved order. And Max disappeared for days at a time, talk about low maintenance. For lots of people Max would have actually been the better rat.

So let go of your preconceptions a little bit, and try and understand who your girls are. Engage them and see how they respond and then try and reply to their individual personalities. In the end you are going to find that you will come to like one rat more than another, but you will love both the same. You might wind up with a homemaker and an astronaut, or a cheer leader and an emo... or any combination of personalities... Basically enjoy them for who they are... And lastly, rats evolve as they go, sometimes hyper girls settle down and become lap rats, and sometimes insecure mommy's rats outgrow their insecurities. Don't be surprised if your rats change over their lifetimes.

Most of all just have fun and enjoy your girls. You might be surprised which one becomes your heart rat.


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## experimentallain

the biggest change happened in my boys recently. They've started hearing me! They may not understand yet but they're paying attention when I call their names. Used to be, they didnt move their ears or twitch or anything when I spoke (I suspect from not being socialised/talked to when they were young. I've been talking to them in the cage and stuff for the three months I've had them though)

After two immersion sessions each (i guess immersion? They were 2 hour sessions with an individual rat each time with me giving them lots of attention and not letting them ignore me and use me as furniture as much) they have started, when I say their names/talk to them, their ears twitch and they usually look at me! This is such a big change in such a short time


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## Rat Daddy

Rats know that humans are noisy, but so are cars, planes and vacuum cleaners. That's not to say they are completely ignoring the noises they hear, because they aren't. Rats are actually very tuned in to noises, but rats eventually learn that most noises aren't signs of danger and more or less don't affect them... again like planes and cars outside the house....

In immersion, when you work with your rats hands on your rats start to notice that you don't just move or make noises in a random fashion. They start to understand that you do things repetitively or something that resembles order or goal directed activity... And rats start wondering if you just might be thinking and doing stuff on purpose. Now maybe if you can think, they might be able understand you and maybe communicate back to you... It sounds like a pretty crazy idea, but isn't that what you are doing with them? I doubt rats can grasp what it means to be human... but I think they can get... big funny looking rat... And if you really are a big funny looking rat, you must be trying to tell them something, and they have things they want to say to you. So they begin to associate some of the sounds you make with the things you do... and some of those sounds only happen when you engage them... So they respond... we call it learning their names... and essentially that's what it is. 

Remember rat brains are smart phone versions of our super computer brains. Both brains work basically the same way, but our brains store a lot more memory and have a lot more sophisticated apps... Rats are running Lotus 123 version 1.0 while we run Excel 2016... Both programs can do the same basic jobs and even exchange data to some degree... but the rat version of a spread sheet doesn't have wysiwyg fonts or 3D charts... so in order to exchange data with them you have to keep it to the basics. You should only call them one name and avoid abbreviations and nicknames for example... and one command for one thing you want to communicate. You and I know Rich, is Ricky, is Rick, is Dick and is Richard, but a rat doesn't... to a rat these are 3 different noises and only one is what they should respond to. Once they recognize that your sounds are addressed to them they will try and decode the rest of the noises you make... Like "Spot, up on hand" and they will respond appropriately. Rats will also learn hand signals like waving or pointing. 

In the mean time you should be trying to understand what they are telling you, they will repeat the same behavior when they want something, and you should try and respond by doing something they may want. Fuzzy Rat became pretty much immobile due to her huge tumors, so she pointed with her nose and we took her where she wanted to go... to the water bottle, to the food dish and even to places in the house she wanted to check out. Her ability to communicate her needs kept he alive for a couple of extra months. We would say "Fuzzy Rat what do you want?" and she would point, when we got it right she would lick our hands.

Misty just came by and tapped on the dish I have on my desk, she was telling me she wants to be fed. Most rats can learn to communicate with you and understand you, again to a somewhat basic level, but how basic depends on each rat.

I understand that months can go by and you won't see any progress, because learning really doesn't happen by osmosis. It takes repetition and concentration. Your next door neighbor might be a master plumber, but unless he takes you out and teaches you step by step your never going to fix a sink based on what he knows. He needs to get into the same space as you and teach you what he knows. And likewise immersion puts you and your rats into the same air space and head space. And it tunes out all of the extraneous noise and activity that might be happening at random. 

It's amazing how smart rats are... and how fast you will see progress. Just like humans, rats learn in light bulb moments... First they get that you aren't a threat, then they realize you are sentient too, then they realize that you can and are trying to communicate with them and then they realize that you might be able to understand them... each Epiphany takes but a moment and then everything changes forever and you move on to the next stage of your relationship. Some times your rats will test you just like you will test them to see if they understand you... 

The longer rats are ignored or neglected or worse yet mistreated, the longer it usually takes to make a break through. If a rat has been ignored in a pet shop for months, it's not going to see humans as sentient right away. I mean it's pretty much learned that humans don't see them and understand them and that the things they do and noises they make are pretty much completely random. It's great to work with pups, they pretty much get that you can understand them right away, they don't see any real differences between attentive humans and rats right from the start. By the time they are weened, some will already know their names and come when called. Still, I've worked with older rats that have learned their names in just a single session... Things move fast once rats understand that you can and are trying to communicate with them.

It was a long time ago now, but I recall when I first realized that our rat was trying to communicate with me. She was trying to tell me she wanted to be picked up or to be fed or something similarly simple... But she kept repeating the behavior until I responded appropriately. And I realized she could think and she realized I could understand her and we began our dialogue that continued until the last day of her life, when she pointed to her cage with her nose and tapped my hand to go there... I put her in her cage and shortly thereafter Fuzzy Rat passed away... Three years ago, yesterday... 

I think you are doing great! Keep up the good work. I think you are on your way towards building the same kind of relationship we had with our truly amazing girl... Your rats are amazing too and once you can communicate with them, the amount of affection you can share and the amount of things you can do together will surprise you.

Best luck.


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## Lucozade126

Unfortunately I didn't know about the Immersion Theory and read that on the first day rats should be left to acclimatise. It went against my instincts but I followed the advice that was given by an experienced rat owner online. I've since been trying to socialise them but it has been difficult. The alpha of the two seems to have been more aggressive towards the other girl today and I've heard several squeaks but no blood has been drawn and I saw some pinning at one point. Now I know about this technique I definitely want to get it sorted out!! 

Do I need to start with stage 3? Also, can I do both girls together as they are not aggressive, the same age and were brought home the same day, or should I start with the more alpha of the two?

I'm really worried I've done them some lasting damage. They weren't socialised as well as the breeder usually does because of a family loss, so they are a little scatty to start with. I really thought yesterday we were getting somewhere, but today it seems they have taken a back-step. They wouldn't come out of their hide or voluntarily come near me today until after I had them out for play time later on and they were in their bag around my neck.


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## raindear

Immersion can be started anytime. There is no time limit to starting. You can still make this work. In taming several of my pets, I have had times when I seemed to be back on square one when I had thought things were going very well. I like to remind people that rat's fear response can be held for 20-30 minutes, so longer sessions are better. A 30 minute session has almost no "quality time". A 1 hour session has 30 minutes of quality time. A 2 hour session has 1 1/2 hours quality time.


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## Rat Daddy

Sure you can still start to change your situation, just make the change and be consistent... New rules, new order and you start with your first long session. Show everybody that things are now going to be different and better and let your rats get to know you as you really start bonding with them... It's harder to change the status quo than it is to establish it in the first place, but it's been successfully done countless times. It's never too late to make things better.

If you do one rat at at time, yes... you should start with your alpha... she's going to be your new second in command... and leadership trickles down from the top. Once she's onboard with the program she may even help you keep order... you don't want to be fighting her for the loyalty of her subordinate if you can help it.

Doing both rats together is perfectly fine if you are a multi-tasker. Good teachers for example handle 30 kids at once. They can react on the fly and address the needs of all of their students in order of priority and need and they can make it fun for everyone in the group. I'm better one on one... We took 3 rats to the park today, while I was attending to one rats pressing needs, another went off to explore a storm drain while the other caught her first bumble bee... No one got lost or stung, but when I'm working with only one rat, I don't typically lose two in the process. Eventually you have to work with your rats as a group, like I'm doing now, and it's really easy for some people. Some people are just better one on one at least at first. It's a personality thing... When you have a rat that bites or attacks you, you can't be distracted by anything else, it's a safety concern, but otherwise it depends on you... you can always start with one rat and bring in a second or start with two and put one back in the cage if you get overwhelmed. Occasionally, rats can also feed off each others confidence or fear. So sometimes if you have a well socialized rat, it can help the other rat to accept you faster and sometimes if you have a totally terrified rat it can make the other rat more afraid of you... In those cases you might want to do two at a time or one at a time respectively... but that's a judgment call you have to make on the fly.

Remember, this is a guide and not a cook book... rather than a fixed recipe, it's more of an if/then flow chart. If you multi-task well then do groups, if you are best one on one then you do one at a time... if one rat is scaring the other then...
Well I think you most likely have gotten the idea.

Assess your situation, try to work to your own strengths and engage your rats, let them respond to you and then reply appropriately... get a dialogue started and build on it... every immersion is different.

And most of all, try and have some fun... rats can sense when you are having fun and are more likely to enjoy the experience too.

Best luck.


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## Lucozade126

Thanks for your reply I'm just a little confused at what stage I start immersion with them. What stage do you think would be best? I don't want to pick the wrong stage and have to start all over again.


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## Rat Daddy

Start every session at the beginning. Get on your rats level and see how they respond when you engage them and then just work on building your relationship. At first it might take some time for your rat to even notice you, or she may run away or to you... but you assess as you go... and change your approach as appropriate... It's not really a matter of following precise steps, more a matter of opening communication. With a fearful rat you will be doing a lot of following and coaxing and being patient, with an aggressive rat it's more like mortal combat... But you always engage and wait for a reply... depending on the reply you respond appropriately... I've done some sessions that go from meet and greet straight to chase games and cuddles in minutes. The rest of the time is spent just playing and getting to know each other... I've done other sessions where new rats will just sit in a corner and stare away from you seemingly forever and squeak if you try and touch them and explore around you... and it can take hours before they will really acknowledge that you are even in the same room or at least pick them up. Every session always starts at the beginning and then moves along at it' own pace... 

I wouldn't worry too much about doing anything wrong... When you think your way through all of the things that go into baking a cake, it seems like a daunting task. but once you start mixing the ingredients it's rather quite easy. And yes, sometimes you misinterpret something your rat is telling you and sometimes you get it a little bit wrong, but you adapt as you go. If something isn't working you try something else. With the exception of extreme immersion, which is a special case only for screwed up biting rats, there isn't anything you would do in normal immersion that could make things worse. A little trial and error is normal.


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## PastelRat

So I had a question. In a few posts after the OP, you talked about having them out of the cage and interacting with you. Should you do this right away? I thought you always had to wait a few days to hold your rats.


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## Lucozade126

Soooo I think I've done it. I can now hold both in my hands and stroke their bellies and scratch behind their ears. They don't run away when I get close to them anymore and allow me to pick them up without me chasing them around the cage first. The alpha of the two seems calmer and actually comes to me and climbs inside my shirt without being prompted. She will also let me cuddle her, they both will Do you think I should do anything else really important? After I "sorted" it this morning the alpha of the two came and pointed to the wheel with her nose and then proceeded to jump in and show me that it wasn't working properly. I told her daddy would fix it when he came home and she jumped straight out. I managed to sort it myself after a bit of fiddling, but I was glad she showed me, it seemed like the next step.


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## Rat Daddy

Pastelrat, I've commented on a lot of threads and I assume somewhere I have ranted about the acclimation idea on this one, but there are a lot of pages here now and I suppose it might have been lost or missed.... So being this is a personal pet peeve of mine, I'm happy to do it again, for those who have indulged my rants before, thank you for indulging me again:

Rats are not tropical fish. They don't need to acclimate to your water conditions. Rats are a lot more like humans. When you adopt a rat you are taking it away from it's mom, siblings and friends. Even if you are taking it from a 'bad' place, it was your rats home and if it wasn't all alone it had emotional relationships there. And even if it was in a bin, the bin was it's home, a place it knew and possibly/probably felt safe. 

Now you know you are doing a wonderful thing for your new rat, you are giving it a great forever home... but your rat doesn't know that! He or she is lost, alone and terrified. The place is strange, the smells are strange, the other rats are likely hostile, and there are big dangerous humans circling around the cage... It's a scene right out of a kidnapping horror movie... Imagine if that happened to you. How can this nightmare get worse? It can drag out... minutes turn into hours and hours into days.... and some people long ago actually recommended that people wait a week or longer to meet their new rats....

Is anyone surprised when a rat under so much emotional stress goes anti-social or gets defensive. If you kidnapped me and locked me in a room for a week, there's a good chance I'd attack anyone coming through the door too. Acclimating rats isn't just a misguided idea, or a bad idea... it's a horrible idea! Rats are emotional and thinking animals and most of all they are social and they relieve and distribute stress by being with friends both human and rat... Again they absolutely aren't tropical fish.

As soon as we adopt our rats we carry them to the car and hold them on the ride home talking to them and petting them and constantly reassuring them. (OK, so we train rats outdoors and we're pretty good at managing rats outdoors, so you might want to use a carrier until you get them home.) And as soon as we get them home we hit the floor with them and start immersion. Some still run away, but some already run to us for protection. Then we keep engaging them for several hours... but it isn't a chore or a technique, its lots of fun. And it goes on because no one really wants it to end. My daughter and I are usually laughing and playing with our new little friend while we are assessing his or her needs and adjusting our approach to make us seem friendly and interactive to our new rat... and we snuggle and cuddle our new rat as much as possible. Or sometimes, it becomes more of a chase game with certain young girls that would rather run than snuggle. Lots of times after that, we carry the rats around until bed time, if they are calm and tired enough and finally we introduce them to their cage and hang out with them as they explore it and get comfy....

We try and make the experience more of an adoption and less of a kidnapping. Along the way we also try and introduce junk food... I mean super treats like snickers that rats really love to try and let our new rats know they haven't died, but rather they have gone to heaven... And we try to respond to them so they start to get the idea that just maybe we can understand them. Hopefully they start to see us more like themselves and as friends and their new family.

Rats bond with other rats, and they bond with people... they don't bond with cages... I don't know where the acclimation myth came from, but I suppose if it's what someone has always done, they just don't know how much more wonderful the immersion experience can be... You don't learn something new until you try something new... 

To add a little bit of history... when I originally theorized immersion with my then rat partner, the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat and first introduced it. It was primarily to help people with seriously screwed up biting rats. When things are going pretty well, no one is looking for a new theory or approach, but when everything else fails people start becoming more willing to accept more radical or just different approaches. We started out by fixing the most screwed up and biting rats, which is why extreme immersion was introduced first and before I published the theory. There were people with aggressive, biting and very screwed up rats and we fixed them in a few days... That got a lot of attention. For a while immersion was considered the method of last resort... the method that works when everything else fails... 

But there was a common pattern behind many screwed up rat situations... The rats had been brought home, tossed into a cage and ignored or neglected for up to a few weeks in some cases while they "acclimated" and then they often started to fight with each other and bite the humans when they tried to put in their hands... Good rats had gone 'Lord of the Flies'. To make matters worse, because the rats were attacking and biting, the humans wouldn't or couldn't handle them or take them out of the cage... One poster wrote... "Help, I've had my rat for 3 months and I've been getting bitten every day'. And she posted pics of her bleeding and bandaged hands... So every time she tried to take her rat out of the cage, she got bitten and she put him back into the cage where he felt safe... It only took one long session, that very night to fix that rat. It turned out he was a real sweetheart. And by 7:00 AM she posted that she had stayed up all night with her new best friend. Had she started working with him the day she adopted him, very likely there would have been no blood shed at all. He would never have wanted to hide in his cage or defend himself from her... To be perfectly clear, there was nothing wrong with the rat or his human. He needed someone to love and she wanted to love him, but because they got off to such a terrible start they couldn't communicate with each other. And I've seen this so many times... the long you put off bonding with your rat, the worse it gets... extreme immersion fixes this... but extreme immersion is an extremely unpleasant procedure and it's dangerous... it's something to be avoided except in the most extreme cases.

In posting the theory and practice of immersion, my goal was to avoid extreme immersions, and honestly we don't see that many any more, thankfully. The goal is to start on the right foot from minute one and start building a bond based on communication and understanding and of course love and trust.

Consider what you know about rats... how smart and emotional and social they are... then think about 'acclimating' them to their cage and lurking around them like a big predator for a few days... Did this idea really ever make any logical sense? Still bad ideas die hard... OK, rant over...

Lucozade126, VERY WELL DONE! NICE JOB! That's exactly what you are looking for. Your rats aren't afraid of you and they are looking at you as a friend and they are trying to communicate with you... and you are trying to understand them. And I'll bet they are about as thrilled as you are, possibly more-so. It almost seems silly-simple once you've done it... There's almost something 'magical' about making friends with your rats and how fast things turn around once you break the ice... The older methods often took weeks to make any progress, and sometimes didn't work at all, but very often immersion works in one long session, which is kind of the "wow factor" that made it so popular so fast... We've fixed a lot of seriously screwed up rats, and it makes for great theater, with all of the blood and tears, but it's the simple and friendly and most of all fun immersions that build great forever bonds I think I enjoy doing most.

But remember, the immersion session is only the start of a beautiful friendship... Your rats are smart, interactive, social, emotional and metacongnative animals.. they need a strong relationship with you to evolve and grow. They need time out of the cage and they want to be competent members of your family... more like a family dog than a hamster... They need challenges and stimulation and a big human friend or friends....

This was the real live Fuzzy Rat...

https://vid.me/3edL

and

https://vid.me/BzNQ 

She became every bit the family pet... she could do everything a dog could do and more... She learned many human words and survived despite a terrible disability by being able to communicate her needs and wants to us... In certain ways she was very special from birth, but she also logged thousands of hours out of the house traveling with us and doing things few rats get to do. She had countless human friends and was perfectly safe to explore outdoors on her own.. well up to a point.. she had an entourage of stony teenagers at the park and people stopped traffic to greet her when we walked down the street. It was actually rather bazaar... and I don't know if too many rats can do the things she did... but I mention it because she proved it was possible. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to take their rats outdoors and get them lost or killed, but I think everyone should know, what a real rat can really do and be.

So what's next? How much fun do you want to have with your new furry friends? Be a best friend, be a rat parent get your rats out of their cage, teach them to be more confident and competent and the sky is the limit.

Literally... the sky is the limit....









You did great, keep up the good work.


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## PastelRat

Thank you so much! I love how in-depth your responses are. I actually think I know where part of the "keep them in a cage for 1 week" myth came from. Other small pets. With hamsters, you're supposed to not hold them right away so people may have assumed the same for rats. That's what I assumed before looking further into it.


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## raindear

I'm not sure it works with hamsters either. The first hamster I ever had (60 years ago) I just put in my pocket and went to the park to play baseball. She was sweeter than any I tried to do "by the book" with my son.


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## PastelRat

True, with Tilly I held her a lot in the beginning and she lobes cuddles.


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## Lucozade126

Thanks RatDaddy for your kind words  

Had a little problem with the other rat today. I 'sorted' out both of them as I thought (definitely sorted the alpha Daphne), but because the other rat (our Omega, I don't like calling her Beta it sounds like she isn't worthy) was no longer alpha she decided to try it on, back to square one we went lol. I think I have it well and truly sorted out now though  Last night I watched them play in their cage and they didn't run away or hide because I was there. They kept coming up to the bars for their bellies tickled and hinting to come out, but seeing as they had been out twice already for well above an hour each time and I was off to bed myself I decided against it. Velma our Omega told me she would like a digging box last night too so I improvised until I can find/buy a suitable box somewhere later on today.

I have another question, I've asked on a separate thread but either no one knows, or no one is answering. What are they ACTUALLY supposed to do when they're in a bonding bag? I don't want them to just sit there bored if they're supposed to keep coming out or something.

As for your Fuzzy rat, VERY, VERY impressed! Well done you. I'd love to get these two to do tricks, even if I never get to the stage you did (which is doubtful, I don't think I'd risk taking them outside, too many cats and dogs around here). I don't know if they will though, they won't eat treats out of the cage usually, I've tried positive reinforcement instead which seems to work to a point, but I'm not 100% sure they've completely learned their names yet even though I use them at every opportunity. Although they did come in the correct order when I shouted them to give them a treat in their cage, so maybe we are getting somewhere finally after a week


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, having trained 5 other true shoulder rats, I can say with great certainty that Fuzzy Rat was very special... she wasn't so much trained as she was evolved. I don't believe she was entirely unique, in as much as there are probably more rats like her out there, but they are very rare. Kind of like kids that play Mozart at 4 years old. It's just a matter of extreme luck when you find one. But what I can say with certainty is that most rats are way more capable than what most humans will let them do. What most rats can learn and do is limited by our own imagination, not their abilities. If we don't understand that they can communicate with and understand us, we don't open the door to a higher level of understanding between them and us... and we keep them in cages rather than letting them become house pets... If we don't believe our rats can become outdoor competent, we don't take them outdoors... In other words we don't challenge them and they don't evolve. 

Imagine a child, never potty trained, and never taught to speak, and never sent to school or educated, what kind of an adult would you wind up with? I'm pretty sure that this child isn't going to make a very good date, companion, employee or parent. Likewise, I don't think rats that aren't challenged can become really good pets or furry friends. 

I'm assuming that there are a few other rats like Fuzzy Rat out there, but for the most part average rats are going to get lost or killed doing the things she did... and to be perfectly honest, we had more than our share of close calls with her. But I think people should know what's possible in the extreme... It comes down to training and testing and just challenging your rats to do more and be more... Maybe, one in ten thousand rats is going to go swimming at a beach, but most can become pretty great house pets and just about all of them can become best furry friends. 

If you never let a dog out of a cage, it's never going to walk at heel or learn to fetch or herd sheep or become a hunting or sled dog. And it's never going to become your friend. 

The bonding bag was an older technique... a spin off from trust training... and it actually wasn't a bad idea. It allowed a rat to feel safer in a dark place and still be with you for a longer time outside the cage. You pretty much carried your new rat around the house in a purse with you as you did your chores... It was often a lot better than short sessions sometimes done through the cage bars or in the cage that yielded generally poor results. But it doesn't really allow for your rat to communicate physically as well as the immersion area does and it doesn't give you the range of movement to interact with your rat as well either. I think it's a technique that can be improved, despite it's limitations. In as much as it's a long session method, it doesn't conflict with immersion theory. And if you have a bonding bag and you want to carry your rats around the house while you do your chores, I can't see any real harm in it... but once your rats get more confident and curious, I'm guessing they won't stay in that bag for too long. So while I have no objections to a bonding bag, I don't see it as being as good as an immersion area. Perhaps do immersion in a smaller space first and then introduce your rats to free ranging the house in a bag next? 

I think most people don't feel they need a bag once they have immersed their rats, so I haven't worked with any personally who still work with the bag much, if at all... But immersion is a living and evolving process and I would certainly welcome ideas from people who find a benefit from integrating the bonding bag into their immersion methods.

I might add that the bonding bag has more recently evolved into the rat doughnut a/k/a rattube or rattoob. It's also used for carrying rats around the house and for taking more marginal shoulder rats outdoors. The more fearful rats seem to prefer to hide in the doughnut rather than run off and get lost or killed. I've worked with several rats that tend to hide under my shirt or or coat while I'm training them to become more comfortable outdoors. And yes, I've taken my shirt off and sometimes I've looked like I ran through a brier patch without a shirt. So, as a guy, I think I'd look silly with a nice floral rat doughnut around my neck, but it might be a good idea for a shoulder rat trainer with more sensitive skin. Still I wouldn't recommend skipping safe site training, because if the rat panics, the doughnut won't prevent him or her from bolting off...

There is a rat training method called "positive reinforcement only" or PRO. Historically it's the step child of behavior modification and operand conditioning. Operand conditioning was a marginally successful method for training rats and humans using rewards, punishment, and withholding rewards and punishment. Philosophically, it assumes that rats and humans are reactive organisms that simply react to stimulus. Emotion and complex thought are just a byproduct of the stimulus response process. So if a husband beats his wife for not washing the dishes, she will wash the dishes to stop the beating and if a guy gives a girl pretty flowers and candy she will want to date him to get more goodies... And if humans and rats were simple stimulus motivated creatures, it should always work a treat. But we all know it doesn't. Yes a starving rat will press a bar to get food and will jump when shocked... but many lab rats eventually wind up attacking their handlers. As many wives have their abusive husbands arrested and many young ladies don't date guys just for candy and flowers. 

PRO aims to be a kinder and gentler version of behavior modification... and although it avoids the pitfalls of punishment, it has only certain limited applications in my opinion. It gives the trainer 1/4 of the tools to work with and it still suffers from the philosophical flaw of assuming that rats are simple stimulus response organisms... You simply can't reward a rat that's tearing at your eyes into stopping. And imagine if you gave a child everything he wanted and never said 'no'. Maybe you could give your kid a single snickers bar for burning down your house and two snickers bars for burning down someone else's... Maybe that would teach him not to burn down your house. If anyone has tried it, let me know how it worked out.

That said... positive reinforcement is an important technique in immersion. But it's used as part of communication with a sentient little being.... you are communicating you approval and appreciation. I'm constantly rewarding my rats and constantly treating and spoiling them. Mostly I'm showing them that I love them, and it makes me fell good too. To be honest, I think our rats think I'm stupid for sharing my food, as rats don't typically share. In fact I think they prefer to steal my food over my objections more than when I give it to them... But they love when I say "good rat" or talk to them softly... Fuzzy Rat literally melted when I said "good rat" and skritched her... she lived for compliments, attention and affection... I never trained her with treats, just kind words... She got lots of treats and became pretty portly at 21 oz, but she more than deserved them. And when I did something she wanted she would give me two little licks to indicate I was doing something right, and yes it was rewarding, but it was also communication.

Rats learn their names rather quickly. But it's more a part of basic communication than stimulus response. And verbal and physical rewards are often better than food treats. Always use lots of positive reinforcement in training and communicating with your rats, but do it as part of an interaction with another thinking being, not to elicit a response to a stimulus. Always repeat their names precisely, rats don't understand nicknames or understand that you can call them by two names. Mostly I think rats learn their names because they want to understand you better, not so much for a reward.

In short, positive reinforcement is a great technique, but it's not a stand alone method. Likewise punishment should be avoided except in the most extreme cases or when nothing else will work and then again, it has to be part of a communication strategy... In other words, many ladies do like flowers and candy and appreciate them if they understand that you are telling them that you like or love them. But if they think you are buying them drinks in exchange for participating in your after hours recreational plans... you're pretty much going home alone. When my rats realize I'm offering them treats to get them to do something they don't want to do, they run for the cupboards. Treats are just as likely to backfire for me because my rats evaluate my intentions when I offer them... If they think I'm trying to lock them into their cage, they aren't as likely to take them as when they know it isn't bed time. Rat and humans are metacognative, they are constantly thinking... they read your body language and they have a sense of time... and they try and evaluate your motivations... My best advise to positive reinforcement is to be sincere and not tricky. Reward your rats when you are happy and proud of them and don't try to trick them into doing what you want.

Lastly, keep one thing in mind... your rats want to communicate with you and they want you to be happy. In this regard they are a lot like you. Ask yourself why you want to communicate with your rats and why you want them to be happy. Basically, because it's just how we are wired. In training your rats you just have to build on that simple principle of our shared personality trait. A seeing eye dog trainer once told me "dogs aim to please".. people aim to please too... and so do rats... Think about that when you work up your training program and you will go a long way...

As to what you are doing, it sounds like you are making a lot of progress. You are re-structuring your rat society around yourself with you in charge, and as such you are becoming the alpha or rather parent figure. Rats always squabble a little, that's normal, but as long as they see you in charge they don't usually fight for status. I do tend to enforce social order, our family rat (top rat) usually gets fed first and gets skritched first to let everyone know what her status is, then number two gets loved, fed and treated and so on down the line. In a squabble, I usually back our number one, who then doesn't have to defend herself.... naturally that's assuming she's being challenged and not bullying... I don't permit bullying. Good social order keeps the peace... 

Keep up the good work.


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## Lucozade126

Thanks


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## Rat Daddy

I kind of felt like adding a little to this thread tonight, perhaps sharing a few thoughts in general. Mostly I tend to respond to people's immediate questions about their current situations and I give the advise I feel they need at the time. Which is good for them, but isn't always the best answer for everyone in general. It's important when reading the thread to read the question being asked and to read the reply in context to the question and the situation... So the right advise for someone with a biting and aggressive rat isn't the right advise for someone with a fearful biting rat, in fact it's the direct opposite. Being the "alpha" or parent to your group becomes an important issue when you have a rat that's bullying the others, but if everyone is playing nice, there's no need to be overbearing... basically it's fine just to be a play partner.... for the most part rats get that you are bigger and stronger than they are and are going to defer to your leadership without you being a disciplinarian. In the rare cases of biting aggressive rats the long session has to address some dangerous and nasty behavioral and emotional issues, while in cases of excessively fearful rats, it's all about calming them down and showing them that you are safe and a big protective friend. In the case of most normal rats, its a long fun play session... 

Overall an important part of immersion is to diagnose your rats mental and emotional situation and to address it appropriately and to establish communication the way your rat can understand it. It's not a cook book recipe as much as a topographical map or a guide. It pretty much is intended to read... if you have this problem then try this approach. It may all be part of a general theory and all operate under the same framework, but the particular treatment still depends on the particular diagnosis...

I think sometimes people get hung up on the unpleasant aspects of extreme immersion... extreme immersion should really be a footnote and not a central theme... It's actually pretty rarely used, and it only applies to certain special cases. But extreme immersions are great theater, they are big and bad and ugly and traumatic for both rat and human... and they are kind of a guilty pleasure to read, especially when most have a happy ending... For some reason when I introduced immersion, there were a lot of biting rat issues to address, so naturally I gave them priority. These aggressive biting rats weren't pets, they were dangerous animals, and fixing them, for the most part saved their lives. I didn't intend to introduce extreme immersion before regular immersion, but that's just the way it happened... I also never really liked the term 'alpha', but when trying to get passive people to take charge of their aggressive rats behavior it was a good term to get them into the right mind set to do what they had to do. I solved their problem, but it left the impression that for a human to lead their group they had to be aggressive, which is certainly not true. 

As a shoulder rat trainer, I do have to be assertive sometimes and I do have to lead the rats through dangerous situations and they have to respond quickly and appropriately, but a lot of the time I can just sit back and watch or interact playfully with them... in fact that's what I mostly do. Our rats literally walk all over me and steal my food and my things and they aren't afraid of me in the least. When someone is backing down a vicious and aggressive animal it can come down to who's in charge and who is bigger and badder... Just like rats fight for dominance, but when a rat fight is over, the loser rolls over and the winner grooms the looser's belly to make friends. In fact, most of the time in my experience the worst intros have turned into the deepest friendships among rats... And friends don't push each other around or dominate each other... 

Lastly, I want to address the issue of how rats see humans. To a large degree this is open to speculation because we can't actually talk with our rats and ask them what they think. From my experience rats can see other animals as threats or as prey... but I don't believe that they can see humans like humans see humans. Rats are very intelligent, but I suspect there's a limit to what they can comprehend. I tend to believe that the highest conceivable conception that a rat can have of a human is to see us as another rat. We may not look like other rats, but I think they come to expect and understand similar behaviors in and from us...

Is there science to back this up with rats... no not much to be sure. But there was a study done with dogs that proved that dogs preferred to go to the people who played with them instead of only go to people who fed them... to dogs playful interaction was more important then just getting food rewards... And I've seen the same with rats... my daughter gets on the floor and chases around with the rats and they prefer her to me. I think both dogs and rats enjoy being with humans that are acting like they expect from another dog or rat... I think while playing with us they are communicating with and understanding us and I think we are understanding them too... Can our rats see us as playful humans or are they limited to seeing is like strange looking oversize rats? In that I don't believe they can comprehend the complexity of being human, I'm going with the safer bet and say that they see us as really strange rats. To some degree, I'm sure this is to some degree actuality and to some degree a metaphor for how we can understand how they understand us... It's taking some science and some conjecture and a little leap of faith based on experience but I can't prove gravity exists either... just that when I drop something it usually falls on my foot. I have to take a leap of faith that because things always fall at a certain rate that there's such a thing as gravity... and I have to assume likewise that because there's gravity on earth and on the moon and Mars there's gravity on Pluto too... That might have been a long stretch once upon a time when an apple fell on Sir Isaac Newton's head, but we all pretty much count on it now so we don't just float off into space... Sometimes you have to take a little leap of faith to explain things we all see and know work.

To that point can a rat see a human as an 'alpha' or can a human be a rat 'alpha' and likewise I suppose the similar question can be asked about dogs... First... to be clear a rat alpha and a dog alpha and an alpha human are very likely very different things.... A good mom or dad can be a human alpha as can a boss or president or king or general or ship captain. And alpha can be a union leader or a mentor or a respected elder... Even an older sibling can be an alpha. Just defining alpha universally boggles the mind when you are talking about humans and the alpha can change from situation to situation. But this doesn't make the term completely useless. It implies some social order or structure. Social beings live in societies and societies are by definition structured, however loosely. Most people hate chaos as much as they hate a society that's too rigid. Likewise monkeys, apes, wolves, dogs and rats form troops or packs or some sort of social order. Some of these social orders are more rigid, like baboons perhaps, others a lot more fluid, like rats... 

So without precisely even defining what a rat alpha is, can a human become one? And I have to rely on personal experience to say yes... When we take a group of rats outdoors, they key off of our lead and run to us for protection. Is this a rigid pack or social structure, and I will have to say no, in my experience it isn't that at all. 

In this video, Fuzzy Rat is clearly taking the lead and waiting for me to follow and then waiting for me to pick her up on the rail...

https://vid.me/BzNQ

I may have suggested the trip back to the car, but she's clearly taking the lead. It's easy to see the amount of communication going on, When I said "C'mon Fuzzy lets go" and started towards the bridge, she understood precisely what I wanted, and when she waited for me to catch up and pick her up she expected me to follow her... That's not even going to the fact she knew which was the right car and found it in a parking lot... but then she waited to be carried to the car, which was my job to open doors for example... So was Fuzzy Rat the alpha? Well, no, I decided it was time to go to the car. Did she always do what she was told, again no, mostly she did what she wanted and did what I wanted when she liked my ideas... But when we disagreed, I mostly got my way and she got over it. It was a similar relationship to what I have with my daughter, lots of times we do what she wants, but when push comes to shove we don't stay home so she can play on her tablet when I have a doctor's appointment... My daughter hates going to the doctor with me, but for now, she doesn't have much of a choice in the matter... Likewise a good human alpha can manage aggression and lead his or her rat pack. I've seen wild rats in packs and they don't march in cadence and they don't salute their commander. They more or less form a motley crew and take cues from each other... like a group of teenagers. One teenager doesn't usually order the others around, but for the most part sets the tone of the activities, the dress code and the general behavior of the group, some times it becomes more formal and becomes a street gang, but that depends on the group leader's abilities and who happens to be in the group willing to follow him or her.

Rat packs are likely somewhere between groups of teens or kids and street gangs... they aren't rigid like the military. Rats don't see their alphas like baboons supposedly do and follow them blindly... (I don't know if that's even true of baboons or soldiers) They see their alphas as leaders at least situationally and they cue off of their leaders... 

So, based on my own experiences and without contradicting hard science, I can say that a human can take the role of alpha to a group of rats, such as it is... Is it the same as being a human general or a wolf alpha? No it isn't. But can a human influence his or her group or rats social behavior, of that I have no doubt. Do rats see humans as they would other rats and as a part of their social group? Absolutely what other choice do they have? I mean look at how your own rats play with you, and play fight with you and how they preen you and how they follow you around and what other reasonable conclusion can anyone come to? It's the exact same mechanism that bonds rats to humans as what bonds rats to each other at least I think it's what we have to assume until proven otherwise.

For those who disagree, I've made certain assumptions and arrived at some conclusions in developing immersion theory that haven't been well documented in scientific literature. And some might feel that immersion works despite immersion theory rather then because of immersion theory. Some people might say that because a human can't be a dog training type alpha, they can't be seen as a leader at all... but I think all of those people who are parents to their rat groups and maintain social order every day through kindness and compassion and attention and sometimes breaking up squabbles and generally leading their group would disagree. Different humans tend to have different management styles. But when you look at happy and harmonious mixed rat and human families or even happy human families there's some element of leadership top down. When there's no leadership, however low key and benign the family becomes dysfunctional without a boss a workplace becomes chaotic and without human leadership in an artificial environment for rats, as in living in a human home, rats can start fighting. Does this mean that one rat might not be socially superior to another, even with a human alpha, certainly not, but order comes from the top down and the human can set the limits of behavior. Can I get my daughter to like certain veggies or smelly cheeses? No I can't. But can I keep her from burning down the house? ...well, so far so good. Leadership may have it's limits, but it's an important quality of rat management never the less. When things are good, it's not something to focus on, or stress over, or get all draconian about, but if things start getting out of hand, there's a lot that a human can do about it.

I hope I've added a little general clarity to the thread... if you are facing a particular problem look for similar situations for the specific remedies and solutions. When in doubt, remember it's all about communication and understanding and applying the theory judiciously to achieve your goals.

-------------------------​
As I have a few more minutes and I'm in a mood for typing... I figured I would tell a short story about our rat Lucky... that might help a few people.

Lucky was a very precocious pup and she's very smart and agile and we raised her with unconditional love and affection, until a few weeks ago when she went bazerk and started slicing all of the wires around the house... I showed her the cut wires and I scolded her and although things got a bit better, she still cut wires, but she also got all tweaky around me and started keeping her distance for the most part. 

Then a couple of days ago, she cut my keyboard wire while I was typing, right in front of me.. and I shouted and even bopped her, right there on the spot... and something really strange happened... Instead of running away she came back to me and climbed up on me and I held her and skritched her for quite a long time and then she ran off and came back and started hand wrestling with me, which she had almost never done before... It took me completely off guard... And since she has been coming to me and hanging out with me and climbing on me every day... So what happened?

Basically she understood that the reason I yelled and got angry with her was because she cut my wires, and that it wasn't a random act of malice on my part. I'm predictable again. She understands that I was reacting to her behavior and she hasn't sliced a single wire in three whole days, which is nice for me... and she's coming when called and hanging out with me which is even nicer and she's not acting all tweaky around me anymore... She's realized that I'm responding to what she is doing and she can control how I treat her by what she does... and she feels safer and more empowered by that realization... 

Honestly, this is the first time I've seen a rat act like she did, she's apparently very sensitive and felt really betrayed when she got yelled at without understanding why... I suppose she thought I must have lost my mind, but now that she understands what I was communicating our relationship has really changed. 

I really don't like yelling at or punishing a rat, but she cut a computer monitor cable, two aquarium air lines, two phone lines my daughters headphones, an extension cord, a network cable a transformer cord and damaged several other wires I was able to tape up without soldering... it was either teach her to stop or keep her locked in the cage. If I had to replace everything or pay people to fix everything she broke she would have cost me hundreds of dollars... I don't get upset easily... but I had to do something. It turned out to be a pretty unpleasant experience and it messed up our relationship for a while... but the very second she understood what I intended to communicate everything changed... and by the way she sat on my shoulder and ran around my desk while I soldered the keyboard wires back together and I had my hands full to keep her from getting burned... 

This is a cautionary tale about how scolding or any kind of negative response on your part can go wrong, but also how it can work... I sat next to Fuzzy Rat bopping her head and yelling at her and she didn't stop chewing the carpet, I raised my voice once and Lucky freaked out around me for weeks.... Every rat is different and although punishment or discipline are still good tactics in special cases, if a rat doesn't understand what you are trying to communicate things can go really pear shaped... If Lucky hadn't cut my keyboard wire right in front of me and if I hadn't caught her in the act and disciplined her on the spot, we still wouldn't have worked out our relationship issues....

There are cases where certain unpleasant tactics work, like with an aggressive biting rat or a rat that's causing hundreds of dollars of damage, and some rats are going to respond to it better than others... but never try and kill a fly with a sledge hammer... Negative reinforcement is a big job tool, it breaks as well as it fixes, be very careful how when or if you should use it to make sure your rat understands why you are doing what you are dong or you will break more than you fix...

I hope this example will clarify a little bit about one of the more unusual and controversial tools in the immersion tool box. We don't throw the big hammer out, we just never use it unless there's a big problem that needs a big tool and even then... things can get more broken than fixed.... if it's not used with extreme precision. Rewards and positive reinforcement are almost always good and should be in everybody's tool box and the go to tools.....

Misty is telling me it's breakfast time... so I've got to go and make something... (but I'm still the boss... sometimes)


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## KimberlyKeidron

How would you go about immersion training a scared rat, one that sits in the corner and only becomes more terrified once you try to get in her face?


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## raindear

I had this situation with Petey. For the first few days I just touched him on the head every few minutes and when he responded with fear, I gave him time to settle down before touching him again. When he realized that I wasn't going to hurt him, I started petting and offering to play with him. One thing to keep in mind is that a rat's fear response can last for 20 minutes, so longer sessions have more quality time in them than shorter sessions. A half hour session has almost no quality time, and hour session has about half an hour quality time and longer sessions have more quality time. 

Some rats won't take treats from you until they are more comfortable with you, and some are just not as treat oriented as others. Petey will take anything I offer him, but Binx is so picky that I offer him a condiment dish with several different treats and let him pick one.


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## KimberlyKeidron

Lola will take treats all day long. And follow my hand to get the treat. But the second I start to touch her in any way she becomes terrified and you can tell it's genuinely stressing her out. She doesn't bite out of fear, and I can pick her up if I have to (like trips to the vet) but she'll almost always immediately pee and poop on me.


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## Rat Daddy

Some rats are actually more terrified of open spaces than they are of you. You can bring a blanket into the immersion area and see if he will come under it with you. You are showing your rat that the blanket is a safe place and you are kind of part of the package... the snugly blanket and the nice human come in a package deal. Naturally this isn't a great idea if you have an aggressive or biting rat. But it can help if your rat is more afraid of the immersion area than it is of you.

Raindear is right engage your rat gently and try to be more alluring or seductive than confrontational. I know those are odd terms to use, they are certainly not precise, but I think they convey the idea... If you do nothing, nothing happens for a very long time, so you do have to do something, but that something should be aimed at attracting your rat towards you and showing him you aren't a threat... Kind of luring him to you rather than forcing him to you...

As to a rat's fear response, that's entirely correct up to a point... It takes a while for a rat to get over it's original fear and explore a new situation. Likely the same would be true of any animal. Your rat has to get it's bearings and calm down before it can assess it's situation and react intelligently rather than just emotionally. "Hey, it's been half an hour and no one has eaten me... maybe that great big something isn't going to eat me, so maybe I should check it out. Or at least move around a little and see what happens."

There is a corollary to this particular rat stress behavior... it's the rat stress time clock. When you observe rats exploring open spaces or finding food they tend to wait until everything is quiet and then come out.... then every so many minutes they dart for cover... really for no reason. When we train shoulder rats, the same thing happens... First they are afraid of exploring, then they work up their courage and off they go, and then suddenly they run back to us or to some shrub or dark place like their tails are on fire. Then after a certain amount of time, they work up their courage again and want to be put down or come out to explore again.... I call this the stress time clock. As rats become more competent and confident this clock runs more and more slowly. 

Fuzzy Rat, out best and brightest rat, was super competent outdoors and she would literally evaporate and go off on adventures of her own... Not that we encouraged it, but she was fast and sneaky.... but she would always be back around our feet asking to be picked up in 45 minutes. New shoulder rats will explore on their own from 10 seconds to three minutes to give you some idea of how long certain rats can stretch out their stress clocks with training. Similarly, until the rats you are immersing see you as safety and protection, they will come to or towards you and then boomerang away... Don't be discouraged, this is normal... the longer they are in a stressful situation, as in meeting a human for the first time, the longer the stress clock runs and when the alarm goes off they may run away in fear.... This isn't a set back, this is normal and in a long session, you can wait for your rat to wind back down and come to you again, until your rat actually runs to you when the stress alarm clock goes off. Your bonded rat will hang out on you and then explore away from you and then run back to you when the stress level gets too high. And this is one of the tricks to training a shoulder rat outdoors. By being the safe place, your rats don't run away, they run to you...

(digression for those interested)

I've wondered why rats would have such a stress clock, but when you think about it, it makes sense... the longer a rat remains in a dangerous place, the higher the likelihood in nature that something bad will happen... So a rat finds a large piece of food in an open area, first it will try and drag the food into a small defensive place... This minimizes the amount of time it's exposed to danger from owls or cats or whatever.... If it can't move the food, and it has to forage or eat out on the open, the time clock starts... and every so often the alarm goes off and the rat runs for cover, just in case it's being stalked and hasn't noticed it... Then it waits, and observes again and repeats the procedure until all of the food is safely eaten. Our rats live pretty much free range in the house, they chase each other around and play wherever they want, but if you watch them over time, they don't hang out in the middle of the floor... every so often they dive for cover wait a few seconds or minutes and then come out again, when exploring the first floor, where they aren't allowed to go as often they tend to dart from under one piece of furniture to another. 

(back to the topic at hand)

So yes, it takes rats several minutes or longer to get over their initial fear and relax enough to explore a new situation, which included you, but don't be surprised or discouraged if they rinse and repeat this process several times before they see you as the safe place... then they will hang out on you and explore away from you... it's same evolutionary adaptation in reverse.

In this discussion, we are having two conversations, first is me communicating to you and the second is/will be you communicating to your rats and in both understanding is important. When I stress that you have to be engaging, I risk the possibility that you might become overbearing. Which isn't my intention. From having worked with a lot of people, the natural tendency of most people is not to engage and to give their rat space and time "to adjust"... Unfortunately, most people are too laid back and give their rats too much space and time and progress grinds to a halt. Three hours of sitting in the same room while you message friends on your mobile device, while the rat sits on the opposite corner is just a waste of time... no one is adjusting to anything after that long and most of that time has frankly, been wasted. So I know I usually come off as sounding pretty aggressive in my approach, but I'm being pushy because I know most of the people I'm writing to are going to be too reluctant to engage their rat enough. So yes, it's OK, correct and even good to give your rat some time to think and unwind during an immersion session, but you have to understand if you do nothing, nothing happens... Working with shy or fearful rats takes longer, and you do have to be less aggressive, and go more slowly, but you still have to be as engaging as possible. 

Oddly kids and young people tend to get immersion really well, they are intuitive and they are by nature engaging and run on a faster time clock than us older adults. Kids don't have unlimited patience, they back off when they 'feel' the animal is too stressed and they move in to play as soon as they feel the animal is receptive again... To an older adult this can look pretty assertive, but rats operate at an accelerated speed too, and it's surprising how quickly a kid can bond with a new rat. With smaller pups, my daughter would wrap the little animal into her sweater and just hold it instinctively in a safe dark cocoon, until it relaxed and then they would just keep right on playing... We've had rat pups that would want to hide in her shirt by the time we got home from the store or breeder. And half the battle was already won on the long car ride home. Naturally this won't work with a strong, healthy and agile adult that has fear or aggression issues. But I think you get the idea.

(another digression)

It is really kind of fascinating to me, when I first started out teaching immersion most of the rats we dealt with were aggressive and biting, Immersions were often about creating proper social order in a mixed human and rat household, it was a lot about getting people to take charge and manage their rat 'packs' from the top down... I don't see that nearly as often now, and I kind of like that... Lately we've been dealing with shy and fearful rats more, and in certain ways they are actually more tricky than the aggressive biting rats, but it's still immersion. You still have to engage your rat, let it reply to you, assess the response and respond appropriately until it understands you. In the mean time, of course, you are learning to understand your rat, so the communication still goes both ways. Your boots on the ground tactics change depending on your circumstances and the rat you are working with, but the overall mission plan remains the same. You are building a bond through communication and mutual understanding. 

Because this thread mostly evolved in a question and answer format, some tactics might be confusing to a first time reader. But its more of a menu than a recipe. Once you initially engage your rat, you assess or diagnose it's needs... If it want's to explore you and play with you, basically you just have fun and bond through play... if it attacks you, you armor up and correct the social order until it understands you are in charge and respects you... and then you play... If your rat is fearful or shy or even fear biting... it's slower going, being seductive reassuring and comforting and offering treats and blankets and safety and security... and then you play. 

In the end, remember not all rats will be the same, they will all have their very own personalities... Our rat Spot, is a big squishy boy, he loves attention and will hang out with me and is more or less a furry couch potato... When we have him outdoors, he likes to walk at heel and will actually run up to strangers to say hi... which can become awkward... Lucky his sister is tweaky and doesn't like being held. She'll squeak and kick when I try and pick her up, she prefers to come up on hand on her own, she prefers to keep her distance but if I'm trying to eat something she'll jump on me and literally steal the food our of my mouth. Both rats are perfectly well bonded to us, neither is afraid of us, but they really aren't anything alike personality-wise and they are brother and sister, born in our house at the same time from the same mom. To give you an idea of just how different they are, last time I had Lucky out, someone at the park asked me, "what happened to the big friendly rat you had here yesterday?" Even strangers watching from a distance see the difference in personality. With time and training I expect Lucky to get a lot better, but she's never going to be a furry spud like Spot. And neither Spot or Lucky are ever going to be another Fuzzy Rat... Immersion won't change your rats personality, but whatever it is, your rats will learn to bond with and communicate with and understand you. And from there you can work to make that relationship better and more rewarding every day. Immersion isn't the end, it's just the beginning.

Best luck.


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## Fayrie

Hi, could I get some advice on my boys? My boys are about 5 months-6 months of age, I've had them since they where 6 weeks old and they where born to a litter at a wonderful rescue and socialized amazingly. We have all been super bonded and immersion has worked great. One of my boys, Axel, has always been the problem child lol. Always pushing boundaries. When he was about 3 months old he went through a biting phase for a few days that immersion quickly cleared up. I have a senior rat who isn't in the best of health, he's horribly underweight but getting better. He started to not let me feed Remus, my old boy. I have had to feed him 4 times a day outside of the cage. Axel didn't listen to me at all when I would tell him no, just continue to be a butt face. I believe it is because of how food motivated he it. 

About a week ago Axel and Charlie got into a really bad fight, i've always had to break up fights during puberty and Charlie has gotten some deep cuts before. This was different, I had to rush Charlie to the vet, he has 3 stitches internally in his muscle and 6 to close the would internally. I've never seen a rat get this hurt before. I've separated Axel and continuing to work with immersion, its not a battle and hes is only being sort of aggressive towards me. (digging at the ground and bruxing and being puffy.) but he continues to come and sit in my lap and accept treats and let me tickle him on his belly. he even falls asleep next to me, same as he has always been. 

I Recently adopted two baby girls for a boy I have who's all alone, Francis who has epilepsy. They are spayed. (No accidental litters in dis house) (I tried intros to my boys but it was too much excitement and he had a seizure and then Axel got super dominant.) The boys seemed to go crazy to the girls in a different cage at first then calmed down now. 

I've tried group immersion again to address the aggression, but he immediately drew blood from his brother before I could intervene. Like .5 seconds because I split it up super fast. 

I've made the decision to get him neutered, I can tell he's fighting hormones. He's become super smelly and covered head to toe in buck grease. and I don't want any more lone sad boys or anymore emergency vet visits at 11 pm. He is my baby and I'm refusing to let him be alone or overly hormonal. After the neuter should I still work with immersion? I can tell that you say neuters can be avoided with immersion but I just don't see a way. Will it still help him?


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## Gribouilli

Fayrie said:


> Hi, could I get some advice on my boys? My boys are about 5 months-6 months of age, I've had them since they where 6 weeks old and they where born to a litter at a wonderful rescue and socialized amazingly. We have all been super bonded and immersion has worked great. One of my boys, Axel, has always been the problem child lol. Always pushing boundaries. When he was about 3 months old he went through a biting phase for a few days that immersion quickly cleared up. I have a senior rat who isn't in the best of health, he's horribly underweight but getting better. He started to not let me feed Remus, my old boy. I have had to feed him 4 times a day outside of the cage. Axel didn't listen to me at all when I would tell him no, just continue to be a butt face. I believe it is because of how food motivated he it. About a week ago Axel and Charlie got into a really bad fight, i've always had to break up fights during puberty and Charlie has gotten some deep cuts before. This was different, I had to rush Charlie to the vet, he has 3 stitches internally in his muscle and 6 to close the would internally. I've never seen a rat get this hurt before. I've separated Axel and continuing to work with immersion, its not a battle and hes is only being sort of aggressive towards me. (digging at the ground and bruxing and being puffy.) but he continues to come and sit in my lap and accept treats and let me tickle him on his belly. he even falls asleep next to me, same as he has always been. I Recently adopted two baby girls for a boy I have who's all alone, Francis who has epilepsy. They are spayed. (No accidental litters in dis house) (I tried intros to my boys but it was too much excitement and he had a seizure and then Axel got super dominant.) The boys seemed to go crazy to the girls in a different cage at first then calmed down now. I've tried group immersion again to address the aggression, but he immediately drew blood from his brother before I could intervene. Like .5 seconds because I split it up super fast. I've made the decision to get him neutered, I can tell he's fighting hormones. He's become super smelly and covered head to toe in buck grease. and I don't want any more lone sad boys or anymore emergency vet visits at 11 pm. He is my baby and I'm refusing to let him be alone or overly hormonal. After the neuter should I still work with immersion? I can tell that you say neuters can be avoided with immersion but I just don't see a way. Will it still help him?


Looks like you are way past immersion here. You got very serious injuries here. Next time one rat could get killed...I would neuter and wait 2-3 weeks for the testosterones to leave the body before reintroducing them. You could start by neutering the most aggressive rat, or neutering both at the same time. I would neuter both.


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## Rat Daddy

Pretty much every boy has increased hormonal levels during puberty... and this can get out of hand and result in biting or aggression... It's normal for hormones to increase again when a rat becomes 'alpha', which would be good in the wild with lots of dangers and challenges to face, but not so good in a small cage in a private house... It's all revved up and no where to go...

That said, some rats can have brain tumors or even abnormally high hormone levels that cause them to be aggressive... This would be what we might call mental illness in humans... 

Most aggression in rats isn't caused by a brain tumor or a defect in biology that causes their hormones to rage out of control... In fact such cases are rare... Usually once proper social order is restored the aggression subsides... and the hormone levels return to normal... But a behavioral or social therapy (think software upgrade) isn't going to fix a biological (think "hard wire") problem. 

Sometimes neutering can help, and sometimes it can't, in the case of a brain tumor for example... In a few cases where neutering didn't help because the problem wasn't actually hormonal, immersion definitely helped after surgery. 

But your case is interesting because most rats with a hormonal defect or rats with biological problems become aggressive towards their humans too, which hasn't happened here... Your rat still behaves properly with you, which means he can still maintain self control. If he can maintain self control with you... he shouldn't be losing his mind and trying to kill his roommate... unless he in in the first stages of a progressive problem...

Has anything changed in your household that might be freaking him out? It seems unlikely, but it's worth thinking about... Is there something wrong with your other rat that might make him a victim? And yes, I know that's a stretch... 

I'm thinking you have to separate Axel and Charlie... to keep Charlie safe... But I'd personally try and spend a few weeks working with Axel to see what happens... I mean spend a lot of time with him every day. There's a chance things will get better, which would be good... but there's a chance things will go from worse to worst... as in you might save money not neutering a rat with a brain tumor, for example. 

I'm not a big fan of separating a rat or having it live alone, but sometimes when a rat doesn't properly fit into a category it's a good idea to watch and wait until it does in order to properly treat it. If your rat was a human I'd suggest blood tests, a CT scan and an MRI to get a better picture of what's going on... but rats aren't humans and such tests aren't commonly available to rats... 

In my years of having rats and talking to lots of people and commenting here, I've only known of two cases of aggression caused by brain tumors, so it's pretty unlikely, but in both cases the rats attacked their roommates first and then turned on their humans about a week later... and then they pretty much died.. details omitted to protect the innocent. 

So, if the problem is "normal" hormonal aggression, working intensively one on one with Axel might help... If his problem doesn't get worse and immersion doesn't help then neutering and immersion should help. If his problem gets worse either way it might be something that can't be fixed... 

You might also look for balance issues or other strange behaviors that could be a sign of something wrong with him health-wise...

I understand I brought up some particularly unpleasant possibilities... don't stress out, because they are very unlikely... odds are that Axel will be fine... There's only a very small percentage of rats that get abnormal hormonal disorders, that can't be fixed through immersion, but those can be addressed by neutering and a smaller percentage that get brain tumors or other mental illnesses.... that can't be fixed... For now protect Charlie and try and get a better read on Axel's problem. If he stays perfectly fine with you, but can't tolerate another rat around him... that would be an unusual situation that neutering may or may not help... 

On the other hand... over the years, I've heard more than a few stories of rats that were perfectly fine with humans that couldn't stand to be around other rats, I usually wrote these off as improper intros... but there may be some rats that actually fit this category and aren't broken... and therefore aren't fixable. They simply can't be kept with other rats.

I know we all want to do what's best, and to do it fast... but a few weeks of separation, isolation and observation isn't going to hurt Axel, especially if you spend lots of time with him... Who knows, you might even come up with other options like a female companion... But for now, stop the bleeding and give yourself a little distance to see the big picture and time to think and observe... hoping for the best but ruling nothing out, and hopefully the right option will become clear.


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## CraniumRex

RatDaddy, thank you so much for your posts. I am currently up to page 27 - and although I didn't read every single post, I found the early debates on pp. 12 through about 17 fascinating to read. I absolutely love your approach (both to rats _and _humans, lol). 

Your observations about the metacognitive abilities of rats far precedes the scientific studies that demonstrate them (your use of the term prompted me to go Googling). And I think that _observation_ is a key element to immersion training, something that would work with any species where we wanted to bridge a communication gap. I have cats, dogs and parrots and for some reason I feel like rats fall somewhere in between, at least behaviourally. They are not exclusively prey animals, but I hope to draw on my 12+ years of experience with my African Grey -- they are so similar in some ways! And yet, rats are also part predator, so the similarity of not just leaving a dog or small child in a room to hide for days on end also strikes a chord. I just watched a series about humans who interact with different species and they were all successful in forming a bond by speaking in the language of that animal. In particular, there is a gorilla sanctuary in England that raises captives to be reintroduced into the wild and he and his daughter have gone back years later and been recognized by their "kids" -- I noted in the footage they didn't ask the gorilla to give a human handshake - they used gorilla ways and customs.

I admit I was at a bit of a loss as to how to begin with our new ratties, but I believe this is the approach that best works for me and my philosophy about companion animals in general, namely forming a bond, setting limits but accepting each species - indeed each individual within that species - without imposing ourselves too much. Basically what a parent would do. (Yeah, I'm the kind of parent who expects her kid to do the dishes, not pay her an allowance for it.) Much of what you wrote three years ago may seem counterintuitive to some, watching the debate in this thread really sealed it for me. Thank you again. I will probably have questions!!!


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## AmbientWanderer

Like the poster above, I had been at an absolute loss of how to bond with my rats. My previous rats were given to me by someone who could not handle them, and at almost 2 they weren't the youngest of unsociable rats to be given. They were very hard work, and I never really developed a bond with them, until there was one left and in her final few days, we spent a heck of a lot of time together. Unintentionally, doing exactly what I should have been doing all along.
Tonight, on night 2 with my new rats (thankfully much more sociable), I've played with and stroked all of them, they've all had a cuddle and settle down. So far, they've been sleeping on/near me for an hour. The oldest of the group was very wary of me, and yet I stroked her head every so gentle for half an hour until she drifted off in to the land of nod, heck I even stroked a ratite belly without being squeaked at! 
I just want to say an enormous thank you! I never quite knew how to undertake the mammoth task of "bonding" until I've had a good old read and realised, it's not a mammoth task at all. It's finding that mutual respect and communication that works for two species.
I finally have rats I can touch!


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## catty-ratty

Fayrie said:


> .........I've made the decision to get him neutered, I can tell he's fighting hormones........... After the neuter should I still work with immersion? I can tell that you say neuters can be avoided with immersion but I just don't see a way. Will it still help him?


I just want to address the hormone thing 

First, I don't have and never have had male rats. Second, I'm not an expert on Immersion. 

But.... I know A LOT ABOUT HORMONES!!! 

I'm one of those unfortunate women who used to deal with severe symptoms of PMS. At times, generally once a month, my raging hormones gave me an angry, distorted view of reality. I would fly off into rages over what I interpreted as attempts to sabotage me. I was absolutely convinced that I had every right to be angry. In the next day or two, my hormones would calm down and so would I. Then, I'd have to go make amends for my irrational behavior and pray that I wouldn't lose my mind again in 30 days.

I think I can relate to your hormonal rat. 

I know people have differing opinions about neutering and spaying pets. My personal opinion...Why waste any of the precious time you have with your rat. One month is approximately 10% of a rats entire lifetime. You could end up spending much more time than that dealing with a hormonally aggressive rat, battling with testosterone that your rat is helpless against.

I say helpless because I know how hormones can take hold of the mental facalties, the abiltiy to reason and think clearly. It was only after the fact that I realized what was going on, rarely before hand. Actually, I can't think of a single time that I realized I was being irrational and angry because of hormones. And even if I did, I'm not sure it would have done me any good in curbing my behavoir.


Or, you could get him neutered. Pets recover from neuters fairly quickly. He wouldn't have much time lost and he wouldn't be a slave to hormones.

And I don't personally think being neutered should be any sort of bar to Immersion. I would think he'd have an easier time of it without those evil testosterone hormones swimming around in his body.


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## Fayrie

Oh thanks so much everyone. Axel has been separated since he hurt Charlie, and he has an appointment with the vet to get neutered. I've been working with him a lot and he's actually showing more signs of aggression towards me today. I think what brought about a lot of his aggression could be the fact that there are now girl in the house. I think a long session is in order.


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## catty-ratty

Fayrie said:


> I think what brought about a lot of his aggression could be the fact that there are now girl in the house.


I suspect this has a lot to do with it! 

My male neutered cats will still get aggressive when I bring home a spayed female! They still know!


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## Rat Daddy

I lived with someone who had the hormonal issue catty-ratty describes. In her case it was most likely genetic, her mom suffered from the same "disorder"... Catty-ratty you have my profound sympathies.

Aggression in rats isn't always hormonal, in fact much of the time it's learned. A rat at a rat mill or in a store might have had to fight to survive... or it might have been neglected or abused... And it might just be as simple as a good offense making for a good defense. Neutering won't fix this kind of problem. In fact in a group of rats where aggression has become the "norm" the power balance can shift and one rat after the other can become aggressive until everyone is neutered and the problem continues into another round.

Less frequently, environmental factors can sometimes influence aggression... When a rat owner who has been very hands on changes their routine some rat will step up to fill the leadership vacuum. During our lives our lifestyles change and we take second jobs, or go off to school or start relationships and sometimes this means changing the dynamic we have with our rats... Rats that are used to long free range sessions and lots of face time with their humans can react badly when their human mom or dad disappear for days at a time. I'm not sure if spayed females in the house will cause male rats to become aggressive... I've known breeders who have both intact males and intact females in their house and they didn't mention having issues with unusually aggressive males. We currently have a boy and three girls and so far, so good, he's as sweet as pie. But again, we only have one male and we spend a lot of time with him....

Hormones are a tricky thing, because both rats and humans have them normally, in fact it would be hard to live without them. For most ladies, from what I've been given to believe, hormones cycle their reproductive system and make child bearing possible. For the most part they don't, or rather shouldn't cause a young lady to substantially lose control of her better judgment, even if they may affect her moods. Likewise hormones play a role in a male rat's development. They help him get bigger and stronger, faster and more alert and they may drive him to take on or fight for a leadership role. And this may be true of alpha male humans too. Like a woman during a certain time of her cycle having a mood swing, an alpha male human or rat might be more prone to aggressive behaviors while under the influence of testosterone and other related hormones. But for the most part women, human alpha males and boy rats really do pretty well with managing their behaviors and functioning in society. 

Moving on to rats in particular, when a rat takes on the alpha role, it's testosterone level increases, it builds more muscle and it gets stronger and perhaps larger. It's senses become more keen and it has more energy... This is useful to an alpha rat both to maintain it's status, and to lead and protect it's pack. But living in a small cage in a human household, this poor alpha rat is all revved up with no place to go... To make matters worse, the other boys may be bonded to their humans, so he doesn't even have anyone to lead or that needs his protection. This is a normal rat, with normally elevated hormones in an abnormal situation. 

Lucky for this rat, nature provides him some relief, because when he's dethroned and another alpha takes over, his hormones will reduce to normal again. In a human household, the human should fill this "alpha" or parental role. During extreme immersion we are dealing with a rat that has most likely become aggressive due to neglect or abuse, or perhaps mistreatment or too much competition from other rats. For the most part it's a socialization treatment for a situation that has a social or perhaps environmental cause.... But once the rat has become alpha aggressive the trainer is also most likely dealing with elevated hormone levels. The rat may present as hormonal, because it is hormonal. But because the hormones are elevated due to social or environmental causes they can be reduced through extreme immersion. Once he gets dethroned his hormones return to normal and he becomes a happy socially adjusted rat again. 

In the case of my ex-girlfriend, both her and her mom would lose emotional control to the point that they would injure themselves, lose their jobs, damage property and hurt the people around them. Irrational, irate, out of control, and perhaps paranoid might have been a good way to describe them... The episodes came on abruptly and ended just as quickly... There's no social fix or emotional support for this kind of problem. Trust me, I was young, stupid, stubborn and in love... and I tried... It's a disorder where hormones go out of control to abnormal levels. Likewise some rats can have abnormal hormonal levels that can cause aggressive behavior that's beyond their control. This may be a genetic condition, or it may be some other defect of biology... but immersion isn't going to easily fix this kind of an issue. It might help, but that rat is always going to have problems with emotional control. Maybe if all of the triggers for aggression are removed it might do OK as an only rat or it might be able to get along with some rats and not others. It might not aggressive, but it might be short tempered and tweaky... it might be antisocial and brood but not bite... depending on how hormonally stressed it is and how well it learns to manage it's condition. Sooner or later we all have rats that aren't quite right... that doesn't mean they are bad or aggressive, but they just don't seem to fit into their fur... and this can be caused by a less severe hormonal disorder among other things.

Lastly, there are other medical conditions that can cause aggression or biting... pain or brain tumors for instance. Immersion isn't likely to fix these issues and either is neutering. And these kinds of things can be diagnosed statistically or in a flow chart fashion... Statistically most aggressive rats have learned anti-social behaviors... so immersion will fix most aggressive rats, if immersion can't fix a rat, the less common problem can be a hormonal disorder, so neutering can come next, if that doesn't work, and the rat becomes more erratic or aggressive then a rare condition that may be more severe might be the cause.... and the rat may need to be treated for a tumor or a painful condition or even PTS. 

Naturally, if you can diagnose the problem through interaction and observation you can more appropriately target the problem straight off. This is easier to say than it is to do... It's little easier when you can take age related, environmental and social factors into account, because you know the rats background and the rats age. A two year old rat that suddenly becomes anti-social and aggressive is more likely to have a non hormonal health issue, if nothing has changed in his environment for example. And hormones may be interacting with changes in a rats life style if the problem occurs at around 5 or six months old and you just took on a second job... and yes, interactions between environment, hormones, health issues and social status can complicate a proper diagnosis. 

The important thing is not to rush to judgement or assume the worst first... An old mechanic once told me that if you really can't figure out what the problem is, start by checking the fuses, cleaning the wire connectors and replacing the cheap filters... not by replacing the motor or the transmission. A good set of meters, gauges and a diagnostic computer will make the job a lot easier. Likewise a good vet who can run tests and do exams might find something you can't diagnose at home...

So in short, immersion will fix problems that are social and environmental, up to and including normal hormonal aggression that's interdependent with the rats perceived status, something I sometimes call alpha confusion... It might help, but can't really fix aggressive behavior caused by hormone levels that are in turn caused by a biological defect or genetic abnormality. The degree to which immersion will help is likely dependent on how far from norm the hormone levels are... And it isn't likely to help a rat that's in severe pain or has a brain tumor or other mental illness caused by a defect in it's biology. I hope that might add a little more clarity to the situation.


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## Rat Daddy

CraniumRex... You are most welcome... The important thing to remember about science is that it needs to explain and predict what will happen in the real world... not limit our imagination. When we find something in the world that doesn't fit science, the real world is always right and science needs to catch up. When you want to do something better than it's being done today, sometimes you just have to make your own observations, test your own theories, incorporate cutting edge research and step out ahead of common knowledge or best practices. If you've got it right the smart people will be right behind you... other's are going to resist change, at least for a while. No new theory or practice should go unchallenged, and the best arguments against immersion are there for everyone to see and judge for themselves. Immersion is pretty well main stream now and it has a pretty phenomenal track record of success, but people can still see were we came from and how we got started and it makes for an interesting history lesson, as well as an object lesson so people can see what's likely to happen when they introduce something new or different... 

Best luck, and try and have some fun while you do it. I look forward to your questions and insights.

AmbientWanderer... I'm really gratified you have made so much progress so quickly... that's what immersion is all about... building a real relationship with a special furry friend or furry friends... and despite the length of the thread and all of the side discussions the actual process becomes really simple and intuitive when you just get down on the floor and do it with your rats. And the results speak for themselves... It really is all about communicating, understanding and bonding. And it's really a very organic process. And to be honest, except for some of the extreme cases, it's a lot of fun., not to mention rewarding... I'm bias, but I honestly believe that immersion produces the best rats and the best humans for their rats and the best relationships... Since I introduced immersion, people seem expect more from their rat-human relationships and it always make me happy when I hear they are getting it...

And by the way, after several immersions of our own and helping people with immersions of all kinds... I still get a real kick out of reading other people's success stories... and that's why I'm still here doing it... 

Keep up the good work and remember immersion is only the beginning... the best is yet ahead.


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## MrsWeasley

Okay so, I'm not gonna lie, I did not read all 56 pages of this and I apologize if someone already asked this! I got 2 boys, very young (not sure EXACTLY how old), this past weekend. George is a little smaller/younger and seems to be more interested, more brave, more playful. He'll come out of the cage on his own and crawl on my lap and responds pretty well to my "bothering" him. He thinks it's funny to jump at me because it startles me, but doesn't bite. (he's just like my puppy) He'll sit in the opening of his cage just looking at me while I rub his little head. I even started touching his belly tonight! I want to do true immersion with him when I'm off work on Friday. 

Freddie (a bit older/bigger) not so much. He's not outright aggressive, but he really doesn't want to come out and play. He also seems a little more interested in using his teeth, which I've been avoiding. He's pretty deliberate, no quick turn-and-snaps, but I'm jumpy lol. I guess my point is... I don't want to focus on George and leave Freddie to become anti social and mean, but I don't really know where to start with him. If I start pestering him on Friday is he going to start really using his teeth? I don't not have "nerves of steal". Since he's not actually aggressive can I get some reassurance he won't legitimately go after my hand? Or do I just have to get over it and embrace the process? Any advice is appreciated! I'm impulsive and went in blind getting these guys lol but I want to get to the point where I can give belly tickles like I saw in that video!

*** I should add that I accidentally hurt Freddie's little paw in a cage fixture the other day and he's been more upset since then  I posted about it but everyone said it sounded like a vet trip is unnecessary.


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## Gribouilli

MrsWeasley said:


> Okay so, I'm not gonna lie, I did not read all 56 pages of this and I apologize if someone already asked this! I got 2 boys, very young (not sure EXACTLY how old), this past weekend. George is a little smaller/younger and seems to be more interested, more brave, more playful. He'll come out of the cage on his own and crawl on my lap and responds pretty well to my "bothering" him. He thinks it's funny to jump at me because it startles me, but doesn't bite. (he's just like my puppy) He'll sit in the opening of his cage just looking at me while I rub his little head. I even started touching his belly tonight! I want to do true immersion with him when I'm off work on Friday. Freddie (a bit older/bigger) not so much. He's not outright aggressive, but he really doesn't want to come out and play. He also seems a little more interested in using his teeth, which I've been avoiding. He's pretty deliberate, no quick turn-and-snaps, but I'm jumpy lol. I guess my point is... I don't want to focus on George and leave Freddie to become anti social and mean, but I don't really know where to start with him. If I start pestering him on Friday is he going to start really using his teeth? I don't not have "nerves of steal". Since he's not actually aggressive can I get some reassurance he won't legitimately go after my hand? Or do I just have to get over it and embrace the process? Any advice is appreciated! I'm impulsive and went in blind getting these guys lol but I want to get to the point where I can give belly tickles like I saw in that video!*** I should add that I accidentally hurt Freddie's little paw in a cage fixture the other day and he's been more upset since then  I posted about it but everyone said it sounded like a vet trip is unnecessary.


No need to apologize no one is reading those 50+ pages or even 5 pages... and that's exactly why there are so many posts here lol- the method is supposed to be explained in the first couple posts- but those posts are so long and vague that people just give up and ask all over again. Try the trust training method, it worked for thousands of people and it is well explained, and concise. I personnaly use only soft foods from the start. It should work for you. Try it for at least 1 hour at the time. http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?39776-Timid-or-Aggressive-Rat-Trust-Training


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, I don't think Freddie is going to bite you, but if you are afraid or uncomfortable immersion isn't going to be much fun for you and you are most likely not going to be as friendly and engaging as you otherwise might be. 

Most rats tend to be a little mouthy until they get the feel of what they can do with their teeth and what hurts you. They pretty much get that when you pull your hand away and shout something off color, they nipped too hard and they don't do it again... But I think every rat owner can expect a little uncomfortable nip or two until their rat gets it right. Our big boy has a powerful bite and likes to pull my hand along and as he grows he's getting stronger... so he comes pretty close to hurting, so sometimes I have to say "Hey! that hurts' and he'll release some pressure right away.... He's not trying to hurt me and he's never broken my skin.

That said, rats have razor sharp teeth and they can really hurt you, if they want to. If you are afraid or even just uncomfortable, wear some thick gloves or oven mitts to protect your hands and take them off when you are reasonably certain your rat is safe to handle without them.

I'd like to add one more thing. One of our girls, Lucky, was just preening the dead skin from my lips... Human lips are soft and sensitive and shaving off the dead skin is very delicate work... and yet most of our rats do it to groom us and they do it painlessly. I've even had one rat literally shave the tan off of my forearm without drawing blood or waking me up... I woke up with a white blotch on my arm... Rats have amazingly precise control of their teeth. For the most part if a rat bites you, it's because it means it and not by accident. So once you know your rats are friendly and don't want to hurt you, you don't have anything serious to worry about.

And by the way, that was a very good question... some people don't like using gloves, and they have good reasons... mostly they want their rats to get the smell and feel of fingers and hands faster. On the other hand, some people start out with more aggressive rats or are more risk averse and they would not prefer their rats start out with a taste of their blood... 

I prefer that when in doubt wear gloves, there's no reason to get hurt while socializing your rats, eventually you will take the gloves off and your rats will get to know your hands. But you do it in your own time and when you feel safe... that's my take on the subject.

As to "pestering" no one wants to be pestered including myself... and while I'm trying to type this I have three rats pestering me... to some degree they want to preen me and hang out with me, to some degree they are reminding me they haven't had their warm breakfast yet... but they are actually engaging me to communicate with me and to have me interact with them. People and rats do things for a reason. You aren't pestering your rats, you are engaging them to see how they respond to you or to elicit a response, which is perfectly fine and the exactly right thing to do. When you see how they react to you, you take the next step, just like you are doing... You touched Georges head and he liked it, so you touched his belly, if he like that you can pick him up and maybe carry him around or even hand wrestle of play other games rats like... or teach him games you like. It is very much like you would work with a puppy. 

As to hurting Freddie... rats are small and to some degree fragile and they often get hurt, but rats are more durable than they look, most injuries are pretty minor and they heal amazingly fast. I doubt there's a single long term owner here who hasn't dropped a rat, kicked a rat, stepped on a rat's tail or got some part of a rat caught in a cage door... And for the most part rats don't hold grudges.... Well, some do... my wife accidentally drop kicked Max and he next morning all of the wires to and on her desk were slashed... But Max was a strange rat, she was always offended by something or someone and sometimes didn't come out for days at a time... Most rats get over accidental injuries before you even finish apologizing... Because rats heal so fast and typically don't show injuries, if your rat is still looking injured after a couple of days you do want to go to a vet. Otherwise watch where you step, and be careful closing doors don't let your rats on the stove while you are cooking and you will avoid most of the more common injuries in the future. 

As to giving belly tickles... you should be able to do that and a whole lot more. You pretty much can expect your rat to become very interactive with you pretty much like a dog. Rats can play tug of war, walk at heel, do lots of tricks and even fetch, just to list a few activities. Rats may be small, but they have massively efficient brains... They are big animals in small packages. 


Unlike trust training which is more of a cook book recipe that either works or doesn't depending on the rat, immersion is targeted at the particular needs of your individual rat as well as your personal needs and situation. Rats don't neatly fit into any one mold nor are their owners one size fits all. This thread is open so people can and should ask questions, add comments and methods and ideas to benefit other readers. The basic information is contained in the first few pages, but after that you may read lots of examples until you find one or a few similar to your own situation that might answer your questions. But you should definitely feel free to ask your questions. The answer to your question might not be in this thread yet, or it might not be explained in a way you understand. After all each answer is written with one individual poster in mind and isn't tailored to your particular needs. 

Addressing the same question multiple times does lengthen the thread, but it's better than not answering someone's question at all, or not addressing a situation that hasn't been addressed before or missing some innovation someone wants to add. I concur, if we were writing a book, this wouldn't be the way to go about it... mixing in theory, techniques, examples, history and innovation... somewhat ad hoc and without an index or glossary might turn the thread into a bit of a slog to read for some, while it's going to be interesting or even fun for others... I'm happy to respond to every question, as best as I can, but with over 100,000 clicks, I obviously can't write an individual guide for each and every person or rat. And some people might prefer finding their own answers in the thread over asking questions "in public." 

I suppose I could summarize "Romeo and Juliette" by saying that two young people from competing families fall in love and (spoiler alert) things end badly... Or someone might appreciate watching the full play, the movie, or reading the entire text... or even reading some or all of the countless books that have been written about the play. Someday, when I have time, or if someone is willing to help, we'll organize this thread into a slicker, searchable and more concise Cliff Notes version with chapter headers and such... but for now this is what we've got... and we are more than happy to answer anyone's questions as they come up. Hopefully something in your question or this reply might help someone else too. 

Best luck with George and Freddie and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Fayrie

Axel is being a recovery nightmare, but in doing so he has become completly immersed... lol good job fighting the system lil one. i think i found a way immersion is working well for me. its a little different but amazing. Axel is under 24 hour survalence to make sure he doesnt open his incision, hes in a carrier on my bed or couch or wherever I am. Hes also on some heavy pain meds that have a sedateing effect. (he has opended his incision 6 times now and wont calm down and stop without heavy meds) anyways we have bonded an extream amount. it might be my lack of sleep last night but i think hes my best friend.


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## Gribouilli

Fayrie said:


> Axel is being a recovery nightmare, but in doing so he has become completly immersed... lol good job fighting the system lil one. i think i found a way immersion is working well for me. its a little different but amazing. Axel is under 24 hour survalence to make sure he doesnt open his incision, hes in a carrier on my bed or couch or wherever I am. Hes also on some heavy pain meds that have a sedateing effect. (he has opended his incision 6 times now and wont calm down and stop without heavy meds) anyways we have bonded an extream amount. it might be my lack of sleep last night but i think hes my best friend.


What you did was Forced Socialization. Forced Socualization is a method of bonding with your rat by forcing him to stay with you. Typically forced socialization is made over a short time (less than a hour at the time, many days in a row IF needed), but there's no rule as to how long it can be done, and your experience is a great example of that. Looks like you incorporated some variation of Trust Training here too (I read your other posts), but mostly Forced Socialization. Now, your rat knows that you care deeply about him and that he can count on you to help him when things are tough


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## Fayrie

Okay  I'm just glad it worked well for us. Hes being a but head always and this 24 hour monitoring thing is seeming to have to last longer than i though it would. Its funny he went from evil genious to sweet butthead in like 48 hours. My only complaint is i wish he wasn't on such a hard painkiller for the process, i hope he still acts the same when its out of his system.


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## Gribouilli

Fayrie said:


> Okay  I'm just glad it worked well for us. Hes being a but head always and this 24 hour monitoring thing is seeming to have to last longer than i though it would. Its funny he went from evil genious to sweet butthead in like 48 hours. My only complaint is i wish he wasn't on such a hard painkiller for the process, i hope he still acts the same when its out of his system.


The importance is that it worked for you Being on hard painkillers might have help by making him more docile than he would have been, but if you continue to spend lots of time with him, the trust and love will stay and actually get much stronger. All methods are just to kick start your rats into wanting to spend time with you and trusting you, BUT if you don't actually continue to spend quality time with them, nothing will work. You got to see rats much more like small dogs, and not big hamster would summarize it well in my opinion Rats are pretty much as smart as dogs, and I had rats that were much smarter than any of my grandma's dogs, LOL.


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## MrsWeasley

Okay so I feel like I'm doing some kind of weird mix between trust and immersion. Mostly for Fred's benefit, but I also don't know exactly what kind of interaction they got from people. I know all the people where I got them would never be intentionally careless or cruel, but they also have some volunteers that help out and ignorance is bliss for them, but maybe not the rats they're handling. They seem trusting enough, but who knows. I let them run back into their cage if they want, but George eventually always chooses to hang out with me. He runs around, tries to initiate play with me, and even displays immersion behavior himself. He's much easier to engage on all levels. I've even let him use his teeth a bit because I recognize how careful he's being and it's all play and testing out. Currently we are working on belly touching and picking up (which he's SO much calmer for now), but I can see a good (real) immersion session working for him. 

Then there's Fred.... Freddie makes me sad. He doesn't really have any interest in playing with me, but is very engaged with George. He also uses his teeth on me more and I get a vibe that it's not exactly friendly, more nervous and testing. He doesn't really want to come out if he feels I'm paying a lot of attention to what he's doing. I'm almost thinking some forced socialization might be in order. Thank god we're going into hoodie season! I got a video of myself trying to interact with Freddie, but I have to figure out a way to upload it. In the mean time here is a picture that really shows you their dynamics. (Notice that George is much smaller, lol!)


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, as was pointed out in the prior post, forced socialization was typically done in short sessions... less than an hour at a time. By the time you started to make progress you put your rat back into the cage and started all over the next day, rinse and repeat.

I think what Fayrie is talking about is the length of her sessions... Literally around the clock. And I know that takes commitment because we do it with our very young pups and it absolutely does build some especially bonds. And I think we see this kind of bonding between our rats too... they don't only play together or groom each other they nap and sleep together. This is true of our current rats in how they interact with me. They don't always want to play or be petted, sometimes they just want to climb into my desk drawer and nap in a dark safe place that's withing arms reach of me... With two cages and a whole house to sleep in, they choose to be right next to me even when we are not otherwise interacting. It's not just about quality time, it's about sharing more time together.

Long sessions are one of the keys to immersion's rapid success. When doing immersion with wood rats, something only ever tried once, the person built a giant cage he could go into and hang out with his rats... Wild wood rats were to fast and too agile to bring out... and he was able to actually build a relationship with them... Not as close as we have with our brown rats, but to the point the wood rats can now manageably free range in the house. Impressively, that remains the only documented case of wood rats sharing a home with humans on record. And that relationship is still ongoing. 

Immersion introduced it's own innovations... principally, a philosophy based on rats being intelligent, metacognative and emotional beings that can and want to communicate with and understand their humans and moreover can do it in ways within the framework of how they see the world... And that real bonds are formed through communication and understanding. Everything else flows from that foundation.

Immersion got away from the cook book approach of one size fits all socialization and tailors each immersion to the needs of each individual rat and human. And made socialization a participation event for both rats and humans... socialization shouldn't be a one way communication where a human imposes his or her will on a rat... The rat gets to participate by communicating back and having it's needs addressed throughout the process, in fact in many ways the rat directs the activity and drives the process. 

Immersion introduced the long session to get around the ground hog day phenomenon, typical of other methods and to make more progress faster. Immersion introduced the concept of a blended human and rat social structure and hierarchy to address rats with aggression issues. It introduced the immersion area, the engage - respond and reply technique, armoring up... and some novel and interesting techniques to meet special needs like group immersions the "immersion helmet" or immersion with rats and dog... 

That said... immersion didn't evolve in a vacuum. And humans and rats have a shared history that goes back for hundreds, if not thousands of years. In Europe "witches" kept rat familiars and in India there's an ancient rat temple where humans and rats get together and interact. Humans and rats had relationships long before immersion came along. So even some of the worst socialization methods had some good techniques to cherry pick from... Rewarding rats with treats is a useful technique, although in the long run affection works better for most rats.. Immersion certainly "borrowed" that. Forcing rats to like you and imposing a top down situation is against immersion principles, but the human has to establish some control of the environment to facilitate the engage, respond and reply learning interaction. and building trust is important with many rats, but it's only the first step to communication, understanding and real bonding... Doing immersion isn't a matter of rejecting every other method, sometimes it's about cherry picking techniques that work from methods that don't or rather don't work as well. Trust training and forced socialization were around for a long time, and they had some things right that worked for certain rats... Where we didn't have to re-invent the wheel, we didn't. Immersion never went after other socialization techniques, in some cases it kind of absorbed their best parts and incorporated their techniques where they fit into our philosophy. In fact a good understanding of the historical socialization techniques made it easier for many old timers to transition into immersion more easily.

On a side note... Although I don't think a bonding pouch or rattoob provides enough space for a rat and human to properly interact for an immersion session, I've been working with a few people privately on the topic of a phase two method that involves introducing shy and fearful rats to free ranging with their bonded human after success in the immersion area. It involves introducing rats that have lived their entire lives in a cage to the wonders of exploring a big human home... the down side being that fearful rats can panic and get under and into things to hide and getting them back can be traumatic. A bonding pouch or rattoob, might be an excellent tool to facilitate the transition... If someone has an immersed rat that's really still afraid to explore, as in shy or fearful, and has a bonding pouch or rattoob, message me. Or if someone has ideas on the subject or experience with bonding pouches or rattoobs and wants to add to this thread, please feel free to add your expertise. I don't think bonding pouches or rattoobs are necessary to immersion, but more tools in the box are always better. So certain similarities between immersion and older methods may be more than just coincidental and some good old ideas may have yet to be resurrected and incorporated. As to the hoodie, it might work as well, it's the same general concept. And rats do bond with each other as they explore together too... so it might help to tighten your bond with Freddie.

A good friend of mine, is one of the world renowned authorities on exotic tropical fish, in fact he has two species named after him that he actually discovered in the wild. He's been at the very top of his field since before World War II. And some of his innovations have survived the test of time. 

Fayrie, I actually love your posts. They brought up the concept of more time over quality time and the importance of just being together, which is normal for rats, but unusual for people and their rats... I love the idea of twenty four hour around the clock bonding, with breaks for meals and bathroom... It's something we have only done with very young pups, but I think the idea of a super-marathon session might be very helpful for some people and rats who can do it. I know you didn't set out to prove a point, or invent a new technique, but sometimes we discover good things by accident or from unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. I don't know how many people are going to try it, but now it's here and part of the guide for those people who might want to give it a go, when other things aren't working... And I'd like to thank you and Axel for sharing.

I hope Axel feels better soon, and I hope you eventually get some sleep. Our best wishes are with you... As this post is getting too long, I'm going to address Freddie in a separate post.


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## Gribouilli

MrsWeasley said:


> Okay so I feel like I'm doing some kind of weird mix between trust and immersion. Mostly for Fred's benefit, but I also don't know exactly what kind of interaction they got from people. I know all the people where I got them would never be intentionally careless or cruel, but they also have some volunteers that help out and ignorance is bliss for them, but maybe not the rats they're handling. They seem trusting enough, but who knows. I let them run back into their cage if they want, but George eventually always chooses to hang out with me. He runs around, tries to initiate play with me, and even displays immersion behavior himself. He's much easier to engage on all levels. I've even let him use his teeth a bit because I recognize how careful he's being and it's all play and testing out. Currently we are working on belly touching and picking up (which he's SO much calmer for now), but I can see a good (real) immersion session working for him. Then there's Fred.... Freddie makes me sad. He doesn't really have any interest in playing with me, but is very engaged with George. He also uses his teeth on me more and I get a vibe that it's not exactly friendly, more nervous and testing. He doesn't really want to come out if he feels I'm paying a lot of attention to what he's doing. I'm almost thinking some forced socialization might be in order. Thank god we're going into hoodie season! I got a video of myself trying to interact with Freddie, but I have to figure out a way to upload it. In the mean time here is a picture that really shows you their dynamics. (Notice that George is much smaller, lol!)
> View attachment 265618


Some rats don't play with you, it is just how they are. I have a rat, Grizzou, who never plays with me but who will play with his two rat friends. If Fred is very engaged with George, it's wonderful- that is just the way he is


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## Gribouilli

A quick clarification on the use of a Ratoob. A ratoob shouldn't be seen like just putting your rats in and that's it. I use my ratoob to spend more time with my rats when I do stuff around my house. For instance, I put them in the ratoob and go to my computer. I do my stuff on my computer while they explore around, going in and out of the ratoob as they please. Sometimes one or two rats will go back to the ratoob and take a nap there. Same when I watch TV or do other activities that aren't just playing with my rats- a ratoob is a way to incorporate your rats in more of your life than you would normally do by just playing with them during rat time


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## Rat Daddy

Regarding Freddie, keep in mind the dynamics of a blended rat and human family are social and to some degree hierarchical. Our rats spend much of their time free ranging and living pretty much free in the house, so they have become very confident, competent and situationally aware. For the most part when I call them, they know precisely why. If food or treats are involved they come fast. If it's bed time or something unpleasant... they are ghosts. But Bunny is our new rising star and is in competition with Misty our family rat.... If I want Bunny, all I have to do is call Misty. And Bunny might even drop tackle Misty to get to me first or try and drive to drive Misty off... Yesterday, Bunny was standing on her hind feet and boxing with Misty when she tried to come and hang out with me... Bunny is becoming my little body guard. When I'm not in the picture, they are best friends and get along great, in fact Misty leads and Bunny follows... and Lucky tags behind. And if Lucky hangs out with me she's likely to get beat up by both Bunny and Misty... I know I'm a human and not a rat, and the rats pretty much have that figured out too, but I'm both the source of food and affection and the parent in the situation... and being next to me involves status in the order of things in our rats minds. Lucky, destroys stuff to get attention, which might sound familiar if you have multiple kids. Getting yelled at is better than being invisible especially if dad feels guilty later on and plays with you more afterwards. In any case I generally only see Lucky when the other girls aren't around... when we are all together she usually hides from me because she knows she's going to get beat up by the bigger girls.

There's a social dynamic going on in your home too, and it's unique to your situation. Freddie might be competing with you for George's affection, or George might be coming between you and Freddie on purpose. Or Freddie might even be trying to protect George from you... Or one of any number of scenarios might be playing out. But sadly, situations like yours are typical. When Max was our family rat, Cloud pretty much kept her distance from us and hung out with Max, When Max passed away, Cloud became my best friend Misty hung out with Cloud... and when Cloud passed away, Misty attached herself to me 24X7 And now that Bunny and Lucky are here, Misty has her hands full competing with Bunny who is faster, more agile, larger and stronger... and she often acts more aloof to avoid conflict with Bunny... It's actually weird that I get one rat at a time when the other's are sleeping or otherwise occupied... and when the second rat shows up, the first one takes off...

I'm not usually up for taking 4 rats outdoors... it's a lot of work. So we take one rat out at a time mostly. The other night was Misty's turn... No Bunny or Lucky around and it was a super treat for me... Misty is a pro... she walks at heel, she leads when she knows where we are going, she waits for us and she hangs close after dark... she rides on shoulder and gives kisses at meet and greets.... My daughter and I were actually able to have a conversation while we walked Misty through the tall grass at the park... Bunny is a lot less experienced than Misty and needs more supervision, but is still easy to work with, but when you put them together they bounce off each other and Misty starts heading for the car while Bunny starts digging herself a burrow. Lucky won't get off my shoulder when we take her outdoors, unless Misty and Bunny are there, then she'll take cover and plant herself in the nearest shrub. When we take multiple rats outdoors at once training and order turns into three rats going in 4 directions at once and has my daughter any myself playing a zone defense... Or sometimes they will all just ride along on shoulder or explore together once we finally get everyone onto the same page... That's the goal, but that's no easy trick...

My point is that we like to see our interactions with rats as a one on one transaction. It's how we relate to our rats and how we want them to interact with us... But that's not really the case... it's a constant interplay of personalities and everyone's competing goals. Having three well trained true shoulder rats that are easy to handle should produce a group of well trained rats that is easy to handle... but if you think that's what's going to happen, you are in for a rude surprise... Every personality comes in to play and everyone is interacting with everyone else... 

I know my example didn't directly address your situation... mostly because I don't know exactly what's going on in your home... but start to look at how your rats react to you when you are alone with them verses when you have both together with you... and start looking for how one rat might be impacting on how the other interacts with you.

As to fixing the problem... that's not easily done... In my case if I want to have fun with a shoulder rat, I take one out alone, if I feel like I need some excitement, I bring my daughter and we go to the safe site and herd rats... Indoors, I try and support Misty, as she's getting older, but I also keep Bunny close to me because she's next in line to be the family rat and if I try and drive her off she might take it out on the other girls, and I try and spend as much time with Lucky when the other girls aren't watching... and I sometimes break up squabbles before they get out of hand... even though I know I'm the cause... If I had to make a suggestion, not knowing the dynamics in your home, I'd try more one on one time with Freddie with George out of the room, just to see how it goes...

As to our boy Spot, he only gets one on one attention... He's my big furry spud, he's great to handle outdoors and indoors and he's napping in my desk drawer next to me right now waiting for me to finish typing this post. Our relationship is easy... because there's no multiple rat dynamics to contend with. 

And by the way the dynamics in our house change when my daughter come into play as when the rats play with me it upsets my daughter... that they might prefer to be with me and she'll leave, whereas if I'm not around she will play with the rats longer... If the rats are playing with her instead of me, she'll show off the tricks she's taught them to impress me... so my presence influences the way my daughter interacts with the rats. And when my daughter is having fun with the rats I might move away so as not to interfere with her fun, so her presence affects the way I interact with the rats too...

This actually goes beyond basic immersion, but it's still part of socialization and immersion theory so it's worth discussing here.

Don't give up on Freddie, you can definitely make things better with a little communication, understanding and patience, but there is no way to completely side step the social component of your mixed rat and human family.


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## leighanna

Hi there! I have read through most this thread and plan to use immersion when I pick up my baby boys this weekend. They will be six weeks old when I get them. I am going on the assumption that they will already be accustomed to being handled by the breeder (she said so at least and from videos I have watched they were all over and in her hands). 

My plan is to take them straight into immersion once I am home with them. Which leads me to the question that is on my mind currently. It’s a 3 hour trip back and I will be driving alone. I am wondering how this will affect the beginning of the immersion, as I am positive they are going to be stressed just from the car ride alone. I’ll be talking to them, but handling I will not be able to do, though I do plan to make rest stops to offer them water. Should I put something that I have worn (my scent) in the carrier for them to snuggle in? Would that help or would that just stress them out even more?


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## shimmyjames

Hi, I was hoping for a little advice on my two new baby boys 
I bought them from a breeder, they got quite a bit of play time and people holding them before I picked them out but probably not much individual play time. I've been opening the cage and letting them take food out of my hand, but they seem to be backing off from this a bit. I've had them for less than a week and they were pretty shaken when I got them home so I just let them settle into their cage. Things seemed to be progressing and they'd let me even pet them a little, but I had to clean their cage a few days ago and during that free roam session they were super nervous and when it came time for me to put them back they kept trying to get away from me. Now it seems like when I open the cage they aren't nearly as receptive as they were before...I think I confused them.

I was thinking to set up some sort of playpen area and just open their cage, have some treats ready, and let them try to wander out toward me on their own...I know they like consistency so I just don't want to confuse them because it feels like I have been haha.


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## shimmyjames

Hey leighanna,
I only bought my babies about a week ago so I can't give super solid advice but I can tell you I had a similar situation getting my guys home and they were fine the next day. Freezing temps, bumpy roads, by the time I got the carrier in the house they were both curled up in the fleece and shaking...I was so nervous for their little bodies that I just picked up the whole fleece and set it in their cage, left a few treats, and let them chill. The next day they were both moving around, curious, albeit very sleepy. Is there anyway you could bring a friend along to hold their carrier or something just to prevent the bumps?


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