# i had an amazing yet maybe useless thought.....



## Alyssa_Rat

Oh.. well i might be getting a little over myself but I have a hunch/suspect that maybe Alyssas Prego... I mean like when I got her 13 days ago she was skinny and i even thought of maybe feeding her alot of goodies to help her gain some waight, but now shes like noticably fat ((that was mean, oops)). When i got her she was one of the female out of like 4 females and 8 males.. they were mixed together 8O . now, Alyssas my first female I bought from a pet store so idk if she could be prego.. could it be possible.
Heres a couple pics of her stomace if it helps...
Heres her before, a week ago:

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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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And heres her today:


















(((((Wow i noticed Alyssa brings more drama to my life than my own family does... but i still love her!!)))))
**I know this was under someone elses post first**


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## DonnaK

*Re: i had an amazing yet maybe useless though.....*

It is possible, but not necessarily probable. If you've been spoiling her a bit, she could quite easily get a bit of a porky belly.

If she was pregnant when you got her, and you've had her 13 days, she will only have about a week left until she gives birth. I would guess, though I don't know, that if that were the case you should be able to see a bit of movement in her belly? I would read up on how to spot the signs that a rat is pregnant and monitor her for any other changes.


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## JennieLove

*Re: i had an amazing yet maybe useless though.....*

LMAO...you should see my boys bellies! Hehe, they look prego!


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## Rodere

*Re: i had an amazing yet maybe useless though.....*

If she's pregnant, then her nipples will start becoming more pronounced. She might even start loosing a little hair on her belly around them. Is there any way you can weigh her (using grams or ounces, not lbs) and see if she is gaining weight gradually? That would be your best bet to see if she's pregnant.

You might want to start giving her extra protein in case. Scrambled eggs, that sort of thing. She'll love it.


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## Alyssa_Rat

*Re: i had an amazing yet maybe useless though.....*

Umm well she wont sit still so its hard for me to look at her stomace... in order for me to take those few good photos i had to give her a cheerio. Shes actually not that spoiled food wise.. like i give her her normal diet then a couple cheerios on the side... but i am ganna watch her more closely now. I cant really weigh her.. i dont have anything to weigh her with. thanks for the help though!! 
(( now i dont wanna keep my hopes up to high cause everytime i do something goes wrong, about anything. so im just ganna wing it through the next week or 2 to se what happens, but ill let you guys know when i know))


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## twitch

where she's a hairless variety you may want to look into a surrogate mom just incase. i know true hairless mothers typically are very poor mothers, some CAN'T lactate and others will kill the babies. there are the odd good ones but they're more uncommon. but where alyssa is a double rex i'm not sure if her mothering skills will be more like that of the average rat or that of a hairless rat. 

also if you think she may be pregnant try to find a place for a nursery now. sometimes it can take a while to build/find an approiate place and it doesn't take long for babies to grow to where they're crawling around and trough bars. 

and certainly do your research now, even if it turns out that she may not be pregnant. you'll want all your bases covered for omplications long beforehand and hopefully you won't need them. but research how to raise orphaned babies, as well as how to handle new babies, sexing them, deit for prego rats and nursing moms, socailizing for babies, how to handle protective mothers, what signs to look for with a mother in distress or babies in distress. and find yourself a good vet just in case there are complications during birth or afterwards. its a lot of work but if it turns out you need some of this information at least you'll hav eit and not have to waste time looking it up or not notcing the first signs of problems and losing someone. i don't mean to scare you, most pregnanices and deliveries will go off without a hitch but always better to be safe then sorry. 

keep us updated


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## Alyssa_Rat

Thanx for giving me that info, um yes i will keep you updated. i think shes more double rex cause she has little bits of hairless spots, but you could be right about the hairless rats not being good moms. I know the farm i vulinteered at was trying so hard to breed hairless rats and either they wouldnt breed or the one time they did breed the momma rat got loose the night she had them and by the time they found her the babies had passed away. so im just a lil worried.
I dont have any tissue boxes so whats a few things that make good nesting places??


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## radical

it's really hard to tell.. i'd just keep an eye on her and if she gains any more tummy then maybe get a bit more worried hehe. my friend's rat tilly had babies, and we wouldn't tell she was pregnant until BAM! twelve rat babies.


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## lilspaz68

I would say if your girl was living with boys for more than 5 days its more than likely she is pregnant since they go into heat every 4 days. 

Start feeding her a higher protein diet, extra nutritional stuff, since it won't hurt her and could help her a lot. IF she is pregnant she will eat a lot, and will need the extra nutrition for herself and her growing young'uns. After the birth they often lose weight and condition since its very stressful on their body to feed all those babies.

if you can get your hands on a food scale or a digital postal scale you could weigh her.

Here is my thread on another forum when I was trying to figure out if my girl last year was pregnant. Lots of pics to compare to and lots of great advice. I use that thread as a teaching tool. You don't have to join to read it.

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4009992.0


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## Starghoti

What I did for Kitty was find a small 6-8" square cardboard box, and cut the 'bottom' out of it, and cut a rat sized door in one side and on top (they often like two doors) Don't be surprised if she blocks off the side door and uses the top one. They know how to keep the babies from falling out of the nest. and give her a pile of little shreds of paper towel and other soft cushy paper stuff (just be cautious of brown paper bag stuff. Lost a baby to that from it sticking to it while still wet. Kinda glued itself to the paper..  )
If she suddenly starts shoving EVERYTHING she can get ahold of into the nesting box, be ready for birth in a day or so.
Also be a little careful with handling around that time. Some mommas become defensive-nippy when birth is imminent, and for a while after.


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## Alyssa_Rat

um ok lilspaz.. the second set of pics of your ratty in that link is what Alyssa sorta looks like, probaly not that big but yea shes showing a little bigness but the nipples havnt started showing. im ganna make her a nest today i guess and how will i know if shes nesting for a litter or just making a bed for herself?? 
and i heard that after a couple days of the babies being born you can start holding them.. is that true??

(((cause i know with hamster if you so much as look at the babies the mama will eat them, eew it so gross, iv had it happen twice)))


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## lilspaz68

Alyssa_Rat said:


> um ok lilspaz.. the second set of pics of your ratty in that link is what Alyssa sorta looks like, probaly not that big but yea shes showing a little bigness but the nipples havnt started showing. im ganna make her a nest today i guess and how will i know if shes nesting for a litter or just making a bed for herself??
> and i heard that after a couple days of the babies being born you can start holding them.. is that true??
> 
> (((cause i know with hamster if you so much as look at the babies the mama will eat them, eew it so gross, iv had it happen twice)))


I handled mine from birth, but it can also depend on the mother. Is she becoming nippy and anxious? Some get very hormonally protective and will bite. My Bronny got sweeter and sweeter, and even when I handled the babies in the cage she would rush my hand and then stop, and say "mmm..ok its you, but be careful I'm nervous". After a week or so, she relaxed and let me take them from her...LOL

If this helps its the continuing saga after the babies were born. I did a daily pictoral of their life. I unfortunately changed the name of my photobucket folder and have only replaced pics up to 19 days old. There are sexing pics and lots of things asked and answered. And some darn cute Bronling pics if I say so myself. I still have mom Bronwen and 4 of her kids. *heart*

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4010369.0


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## Alyssa_Rat

Aww there so cute!!!! I want one... umm well i put that box in her cage, in the spot were she'll pull the cloth in her cage and curl up. and i gave her some shredded paper towel ((for now)) and at first she started bringing the shredded paper ((that was spread through the cage)) into the box then she like stopped and went to sleep in her hammock.. its weird cause she never sleeps in her hammock cause its at the top of her cage.

Idk if youv seen my post about her flipping out whenever i feed her..?
well she does that.. when she knows its feeding time shes get really excited and when i give a peice of food to her while i feed her bowl she take it and flip out running oround her cage and at one point she tried to take my finger, like i know she confused it for food but she like wouldnt let go. she didnt break the skin and it didnt hurt its just she like sat there pulling at my finger... it was weird.

could any of this have to do with being prego??


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## KayRatz

Well my rat tries nibbling my finger on occasion, especially Zinc, rat of many strange habits. They're just testing to see if you're edible :]


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## fallinstar

any updates?


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## Alyssa_Rat

actually shes ignoring the nesting box i gave her and shes umm what im ganna call "nesting" in her hammock. like all of a sudden out of no were she just started dragging the shredded paper towels up to her hammock... have you ever heard/had a rat have babies in the hammock?? im afraid IF she does have babies that they might fall out of the hammock ((3 storys)) and like die or get badly injured... what do i do if she does have babies there?? and i would like to say she gained some wait but idk if thats just me thinking that... although my mom says she does look a little bigger, so im still waiting to se what happens.


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## Alyssa_Rat

ok... i jinxed myself ((i think)) now she like made a "nest" at the bottom of her cage.... out of the paper towel strips. It like connects with the box that she now made into what i call the "food-hall" also known as the place were she hides her food. its sorta funny looking.

And she doesnt wanna come out of her cage!!!   since when?? im shocked cause usually when i open her cage door she right there ready to come out and play, now she just peeks her head out of her nest and wants me to pet her... weird. have any ideas on why shes acting this way?? i wanna say she is prego... but i dont wanna get my hopes up.


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## Stephanie

*crosses fingers* maybe soon she will have babies


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## Alyssa_Rat

i hope so *crossing fingers also*, that would be nice!!


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## Night

You're hoping for babies? Why? A litter is *extremely* time-consuming, expensive, and not for the novice rat owner at all.


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## Poppyseed

Yeah, I kind of hope she doesn't to be honest because of her age and the tendancy for hairless rats to not be great mothers ^^;; Even if she is a double rex I'd still be worried.

If she is pregnate maybe see if anyone you know has a lactating mother just in case? I know it's not as bad with double rex's as hairless but it's better to be safe then sorry.


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## Alyssa_Rat

Yea.. like i would love for her to have babies but i also hope not. umm and i dont know anyone else with rats, everyone i know is afraid of rats.. im alone in the world  ((or mine at least)) lol. but yea, idk what happens happens. ((not to sound mean))


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## Night

Have you been researching about this, about pregnant moms and litters? 

So many things can happen with a litter - you especially need to have a really good emergency vet fund, since sometimes c-sections are needed in case a baby gets stuck in the birth canal.


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## Alyssa_Rat

Yea ive been researching... but i bred hamsters for years and never had any problems but yea ill keep that in mind. she keeps moving back and forth from the hammock to the floor.. like moving her nest. I did have her cage in the living room but i moved it to the bedroom were its quieter... and for the first time in what has it been 3 days she finaly asked to come out of her cage so i let her out to play for a lil bit.


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## Night

What sort of cage is she in currently? If she really is pregnant, she needs to be in a one-level cage. Some moms will drag their babies all over a large cage, even into hammocks. This can lead to babies falling and getting hurt. 20 gallon tanks (or larger) are most recommended for birthing mothers.


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## Alyssa_Rat

Shes in a 3 story cage but i can take the 2 storys and the hammock out. and the base of the cage is pretty tall.. like she can barely se over it so the babys will be fine at the bottom of the cage.

This is what type of cage shes in ((exactily the same thing))
http://image.bizrate.com/resize?sq=400&uid=22891017&mid=25818


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## Night

Well, after this, please keep in mind that she needs a much, MUCH larger cage.


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## Alyssa_Rat

well of course im ganna find the babies homes... except for one ((to be her cage mate)). her cage can fit at the most 2 small rats so i think shes fine for a while.


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## KayRatz

I sure hope she doesn't have babies, and also that you get her a bigger cage even after the babies have homes, if she has babies. :] Stephanie, I thought you'd been owning rats for 10 years? Wouldn't you know that rat babies aren't a good thing for a novice rat owner?


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## Stephanie

KayRatz said:


> I sure hope she doesn't have babies, and also that you get her a bigger cage even after the babies have homes, if she has babies. :] Stephanie, I thought you'd been owning rats for 10 years? Wouldn't you know that rat babies aren't a good thing for a novice rat owner?



Did i ever say i bred rats??? you can seriously stop talking to me from now on 
thanks buh bye


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## KayRatz

I never said you said that, either.


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## Night

Alyssa_Rat said:


> well of course im ganna find the babies homes... except for one ((to be her cage mate)). her cage can fit at the most 2 small rats so i think shes fine for a while.


Actually, per all of the rat cage calculators, that cage can't hold ONE rat. It's a hamster cage. She needs to get out of there ASAP.


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## KayRatz

Agreeing with Night.


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## ladylady

*I would say if your girl was living with boys for more than 5 days its more than likely she is pregnant since they go into heat every 4 days. Razz

Start feeding her a higher protein diet, extra nutritional stuff, since it won't hurt her and could help her a lot. IF she is pregnant she will eat a lot, and will need the extra nutrition for herself and her growing young'uns. After the birth they often lose weight and condition since its very stressful on their body to feed all those babies.

if you can get your hands on a food scale or a digital postal scale you could weigh her.

Here is my thread on another forum when I was trying to figure out if my girl last year was pregnant. Lots of pics to compare to and lots of great advice. I use that thread as a teaching tool. You don't have to join to read it.

www.goosemoose.com/com...,4009992.0*

read it-i bet you cry!


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## twitch

the link doesn' work

why would i cry?


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## ladylady

i was, i think my hormones are off im baby mad at the moment!


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## dkirschling

When I got Sprinkles, I didn't know she was prego. I got her and Miffy and Becky on a Thursday, and on Saturday she had 9 babies! Everything worked out great. Sprinkles knew just what to do. I had never seen any animal (other than human) from the moment it was born until maturity. It was so fun, and since I don't breed, it may have been my only opportunity. You obviously love your rat; trust your instincts. You're getting some great advice from other folks who care about rats, you'll be able to figure everything out. I just wanted to offer some encouraging words! Yay!


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## ladylady

Unplanned pregnacy=Cloud with a silver lining


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## Night

I wished the link to your Goosemoose thread worked, since I'm on there also and don't seem to remember you or your post


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## ladylady

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4009992.0

Sorry it was thay quoteing issue


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## Alyssa_Rat

I dont think shes ganna have babies... ive had her over 3 weeks now and there pragnancy last what? 23 days. so I think shes not prego and im just ganna go get a friend for her. ive had her for 22 days.. she should have had them already.


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## Sara_C

Please get her a larger cage, whether you get her a friend or not. That cage is far too small for one rat, let alone two.


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## Alyssa_Rat

The cage is not to small! if anything i thought it was to big for her. I know it looks small in the pic.... but its bigger than you think. She'll be fine. Yes, eventually ill get her a lager cage but for now shes fine even with a friend.


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## reachthestars

Alyssa, my friend has that cage and ONLY uses it as a QT cage for babies. It is *tiny*, and way too small for one adult rat, let alone two. I used it while I fostered a 6 week old girl and put Amelia in it to see what it was like (for all of about 2 minutes), and my _petite 300 gram girl_ was cramped for space!

Rats need a minimum of 2 feet of space, which that cage doesn't provide. There are many cheap options for larger cages, such as www.martinscages.com. Please, PLEASE get her a larger cage.



_(edited because I left out the '2' in 2 feet)_


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## Sara_C

_"The cage is not to small! if anything i thought it was to big for her. I know it looks small in the pic.... but its bigger than you think. She'll be fine. Yes, eventually ill get her a lager cage but for now shes fine even with a friend."_

And what do you base this on? How do you know it's the right size for her? Have you researched cage sizes? It's a well known fact that rats need a minimum space of 2 cubic feet, PER RAT! Just use the cage calculator: http://www.rattycorner.com/odds/calc.shtml

You are being given some good advice from people that understand the needs of rats. All we are trying to do is ensure that your girls have the best possible life. That cage is far too small, please look into getting her a larger cage, or at least start getting the money together.

Just out of curiosity, what made you get that cage in the first place?


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## ladylady

Yay my cage is enough for 5! That calculator is handy


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## Alyssa_Rat

Guys comeon.. ive owned rodents my whole life, shes fine in that cage! yes when she gets bigger im ganna get her a bigger cage but shes still young so she doesnt need a bigger cage for a while. I got the cage from a lady who held 3 small rats in that cage till they got bigger and she baught them a bigger cage. Im sick of you guys ruining the fun of owning rats for me... rodents are suposed to be pets for people who live in apartments and dont have alot of money for a fancy pet... so guys please keep to yourself when it comes to this, i may not be a perfect rat owner but i know how to keep them happy and love them. Shes fine in her cage.


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## Night

Uh... rats, although small, deserve just as much care and respect as a large animal. We aren't "ruining" anything. You're doing something wrong, and we're trying to help you. She's not fine in her cage. She needs toys, hammocks, tunnels, digging boxes, et cetera. It's a HAMSTER cage, NOT a rat cage! The cage can't even hold one rat. Simply because you've had rodents "your whole life," doesn't make you a superb, or even okay, owner.

Rats are usually very pricey (or at least not inexpensive) pets to keep. Just like any animal, if you care for them properly, it does take quite a bit of money and time. Rats aren't "for people who live in apartments" or "for people who don't have a lot of money." Rats are for people who want intelligent companions, and who are willing to pay for all vet bills, surgeries, food, bedding, and most of all, PROPER caging!

Saying you've owned rodents for years doesn't show us anything besides the fact that you've been caring for them incorrectly for a long, long time.

A cage for two rats is fairly inexpensive. It'll probably be under $100-$150.


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## reachthestars

Alyssa, your attitude is disgusting . You're not even giving her the minimum amount of space or a companion. Rat's aren't a 'cheap' pet, and infact, there is no such thing as a cheap pet if you care for them properly. 

My HUGE cage that can hold 12 rats cost under $150 and I have 3 rats in it, so I *will* get touchy when I see one rat stuck in a hamster cage because her owner claims 'bigger cages are too expensive'. I saw this attitude all too often when I worked at the petstore, and would not hesitate to let people know they should reconsider pets if they don't want to spend the money required.

What will happen if she gets sick again? Can you afford vet care? 

Frankly, people who do less than the minimum for their animals DO NOT deserve to own them. Do you realize I've spent over 6 hours the past 3 days cleaning rat messes alone? I wouldn't have half the mess I did if I didn't have the rats, but because I love them I don't mind, heck I even enjoy it.

Just because you've "owned rodents your whole life" *does not* make you the least bit an expert on them, in fact I question if you know much at all based on what we've seen here. I've had rats just 2 years and mice for two years before that, and I can honestly say I was an awful mouse owner, even after having them for a few years. Time does not equal wisdom.

I'm not trying to attack you, but it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall. We're trying to help you be a better owner for Alyssa and any other rats you may get.


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## ladylady

I got my massive cage for Â£61 if that helps


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## Sara_C

She doesn't need a bigger cage because she's young?! So i assume that she doesn't need to climb, jump, run or explore, either? She needs space to exercise and have fun - being cramped up in a HAMSTER (note: not a RAT cage) won't let her do this.

Even if you have owned rats your own lif (which i find highly unlikely), that does not mean, as Night has said, that you were doing everything right. It also does not mean that you know everything about rats. Owning rats means we all have to learn new things, all the time, as well as take advice from people. We've probably all gone through steep learning curves at some point or other about how to care for rats. This is yours. You need to learn that your rat needs much more space, and take our advice on board. 

Also just because some 'lady' kept three rats in the cage doesn't mean it's right, either. She sounds like a worse rat owner than you.


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## Poppyseed

It's a good idea to listen to advice on this forum. We're trying to make your rat more fun by having your rat be the happiest she can be, what is so wrong for that? Don't you want what's best for your pet? Don't you love and care for her? Would you be fine living in a... well basically something similar to a closet most of your days with only 1-2 hours out at a time? Even if you do let her out more often than that, there is still all those hours she spends cramped in the cage. It maybe tall yeah but it's still not enough room and not tall enough to make up for it. Width and depth make a larger difference than height for rats, as they like to run as well as climb.

So yeah, it would be best to get off the defensive, no one here is attacking you and we really didn't think any less of you until you started holding your ears and told everyone here we didn't know anything about rats. Everyone here has something to learn, that's why we are here to learn from eachother and help out.

I'll give you some links to some cages that are fairly inexpensive and according to the cage caculator can hold up to two rats:

*Martins* 
http://www.martinscages.com/products/cages/rat/
All the cages I am listing are under $100, GREAT deal and many people love them. Choose the PVC coated option. It adds on a little bit but will keep the cage from rusting
On this site: *Two Rats*: the rat cabin (r-670)
*Three rats*: The rat lodge (r-680), the Rat Retreat (r-685), the rat Tower (r-690)
There are others that hold more, but you get the idea. I also did not list the ones that held just one rat or didn't even hold one rat so if you see cheaper ones there than those listed, they probably only hold one rat or no rats D:

On this page: http://www.martinscages.com/products/cages/ferret/
*Two rats*: The Ferret Bungalow (F-410), Two-Story Barn, Large Ferret Carrier (CC-3018)
*Three rats*: The Ferret Cabana (F-420)
*Four rats*: The deluxe Barn (F-BarnDLX)
*Five rats*: The Ferret Manor (F-430), the ferret villa (f-435)

And then there are the commonly found in pet stores cages:
 Four Rats, $60! I think it may need to have a level added or hammocks to utilise the vertical space though
Four rats, on sale at PetCo
Five rats on sale for $72 right now
Two rats, only $70

Four rats at PetCO for $45!! Just until 14th

Agh, so that's enough for you to get the idea. You don't HAVE to spend over $100 on a cage to get a nice roomie space for your girl if you shop around. I would recomend getting a new one ASAP even if you have to beg your mom like crazy to get one, it would be worth it for your little baby who would be 100x more happy. 

This was already posted here but the cage caculator: http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/habitat/cagecalculator/

And there is also the option of making a cage, be sure to run your measurements through the cage caculator first though. You can make some good ones for as little as $40 if you shop around ^_~

Hope that helps you find the much NEEDED cage space for your girl. Please listen to people, usually when people here tell you it's not enough it really isn't. They know their stuff.


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## Alyssa_Rat

Now 1. i live in amarica so theres almost no such thing ((that i can find)) of a rat cage that cost like $60, and 2. i NEVER seid i was a perfect rat owner, cuz im not a perfect rat owner. i just know enough to know that ALYSSAS FINE!!! idc what you all think, i just know shes happy. and yes her cage does have toys.. she has a hammock, a large peice of cloth on the bottom of her cage, a t-p tube, and a clinbing rope in her cage, and not to mention my whole room to herself, SO BACK OFF!!!!


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## Vixie

Alyssa_Rat said:


> Now 1. i live in amarica so theres almost no such thing ((that i can find)) of a rat cage that cost like $60, and 2. i NEVER seid i was a perfect rat owner, cuz im not a perfect rat owner. i just know enough to know that ALYSSAS FINE!!! idc what you all think, i just know shes happy. and yes her cage does have toys.. she has a hammock, a large peice of cloth on the bottom of her cage, a t-p tube, and a clinbing rope in her cage, and not to mention my whole room to herself, SO BACK OFF!!!!


NO ONE is a perfect rat owner, but they are trying to help you be the best you can be.

Honestly, you just haven't looked hard enough, I have a cage right now that has perfect room for two and was just under $60.

Please don't be offended or irritated, if you don't want to take the advice given, just move on and don't waste your time saying anything.


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## Sara_C

How do you know that she's happy? If you really caerd about her happiness you'd at least look for some other cages, and start savng money.


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## reachthestars

Alyssa, all the cages Poppy listed are availble in the US. They're all affordable. Can you save up your allowance to buy her a cage? Or maybe your parents will lend you the money and they just keep your allowance each week until it's payed off?


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## Night

Oh wow! She has a large piece of cloth! Woohooo.


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## Stephanie

OMG she is doing the best she can just because she doens't have alot of things doesn't mean she isn't happy and just because alyssa rat doesn't have alot of money doesn't mean she isn't doing everything she can you guys are acting as though everyone has to do what you do and that is not always the case! calm down and back off of her for a bit heck I don't ecven know how often she comes here any more it is the same thing that happened with wiccan wolf you guys jump down their throats about details they aren't asking about and they just leave you do it with sky (who granted needs some help on how to do things properly with her rat) and you chase them off and that helps nobody. Be a bit more polite and maybe you can share your extensive knowledge in a better way. I know that everyone ehre is trying to help but hurtful words and sarcasm are not the way to help.


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## Sara_C

What are we saying thats hurtful? We suggested that she get a bigger cage, as the cage she has far is far too small but she won't accept that - she thinks she knows better. None of us know everything about rats, and we don't claim to, but we know for a fact that that cage is cruelly small for a rat, and Alyssa (Izzie...whatever) just isn't accepting that she needs a bigger cage.

The conditions Wiccanwolf's rat was kept in were heartbreaking. We weren't exaggerating when we were appalled by how she was kept - something needed saying, and it was said. I know that Izzie truly cares about her rat, and thats why we can't understand why she won't take out advise on board and look for a better cage. A decent cage is the most basic of needs for a rat - if she couldn't afford to get a proper rat cage for Alyssa then she should have saved up/start saving up for a bigger cage.


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## Stephanie

I am just saying that between you and night some very hurtful things have been said on more than one posting. Advise is something that should be given only when asked and i agree that a cage is important and it should be kept in proper conditions but the way advice is given here is appaling as well. I would hate to see what you and night would say about jackson right now. You are extemely hurtful not in what you say but how it comes across. It seems like you two just sit there and wait to pounce on people the second they say the word aquarium. I know it is not ideal but it is better than in a snakes belly. Also as soon as anyone says they only have one rat you guys pounce well yes it's true that MOST rats enjoy the company of others BUT there are a number of rats i personally know that would rather just be squishy little blobs all alone. I just hate to see people driven away from a forum that has sooo many helpful topics because two people start attacking them the second they post a picture of a cage that isn't up to the highest standards. I am not saying that you are not helpful in most cases but I am saying that perhaps you could stop jumping the gun and wait for them to ask the questions almost every new rat owner asks. OR put it in a way that doesn't seem so attacking and more like. . . oh and by the way not sure if you are aware of this but it may be more beneficial to your little one if you did this . . . (insert suggestion here.)


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## Sara_C

I don't think i've _ever_ jumped on anyone, and i pride myself on tact - if i have anything to say i won't just abruptly say it, i'll find a way to say it that's construcive, and not negative. But at the same time, people don't need to be babied - i know i'd just rather hear the truth than have people beating around the bush to tell me something. I don't sit waiting to pounce - in fact there's only Alyssa and Wiccanwolf who i've immediately felt the need to give advise to. Advise may not be asked to, but we have a duty to inform people and help them learn about proper rat care - for the rats sake. 

I have no problems with aquariums - if they are large and have a topper. What i do have a proble with is a rat being kept in a tiny 10 gallon with nowhere to express their natural behaviour. Call me picky, i just think we have the animals best interests at heart.

It's not, and never will be my intention to hurt other people's feelings. I didn't mean to do that at all, i just can't understand why someone wouldn't want the very best for their pet. It's frustrating.


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## Night

Stephanie said:


> yes it's true that MOST rats enjoy the company of others BUT there are a number of rats i personally know that would rather just be squishy little blobs all alone.


Those rats need to be spayed/neutered and socialized 

I've worked with a rat rescue for a long time, and have fostered NUMEROUS rats. Every single one of them enjoyed the company of other rats. I had a rat last year that sent me to the ER at 3 AM for ripping into my hand. He was aggressive toward humans and toward other rats. All he needed was to be neutered and socialized. Now he's a sweet boy who lives with eight other buddies.

People who think their rats are loners, 99.9% of the time just aren't trying hard enough, or at all.


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## Poppyseed

Thanks for the appreciation for the HOUR I spent putting together that post in an effort to help you find a cheaper cage in AMERICA. You didn't even read it Alyssa D: I geuss that's one hour of my life I've tried to help someone that was totally wasted, all I got was you glancing at it and putting 'no cage in America is $60!' but a ton of the links there were cages, in common pet stores in AMERICA on sale or reasonably priced D: I also put every cage that seemed reasonabably priced through the caculator for you D:

Gah, sorry I was trying to be helpful but it really irks me that you didn't read it and look into it at least (I'm also really hurt by the fact that you just ignored a huge post that took a ton of time to put together and I did it just for you, to help you out D: ) I never said 'omg you suck at taking care of your rat' She may be fine for now, as she is small and female but she will outgrow that cage. It's a fact.

Sorry if that came off as mean but that just made me a little upset D: I had to say something.


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## Stephanie

I already have a cage (a huge six footer for that matter) poppyseed I didn't post anything about needing a cage and night mister sniffles does NOT need to be nuetered or socialized he is COMPLETELY happy. He prefers to be alone wether or not you have worked with rescues. Mister sniffles has NEVER bitten anyone and he is not the aggressive one he sits in his cage and quivers if there is another rat around him. I understand that nuetering helps out ALOT but there is not a need for it every time I was simply saying that you guys are not always right and if this is how people are going to be treated for coming and asking a simple question I think you should be ashamed of yourselves I know that you are trying to help but jumping all over people is not the way to do it. I have sat by saying nothing but I just can't do it anymore. I know you guys have the rats in your hearts and I love that BUT the people you are trying to reach are not going to be reached by being sarcastic, rude or snippy. Sara I know you have been as nice as possible and perhaps it is just the way it seems to me but I can see why people would come here post something and then run scared thinking OMG the crazy rat ladies are gonna kill me in my sleep!. I want to help just as many rats as you guys do and I can understand the sentiment behind it all but you may need to rethink the way you go about it especially you night. I mean the over the rainbow bridge post you made to twitch was completely uncalled for. This place was helpful at first but now I think it may be time for me to take my leave of this place. I hope you take some of my words to heart and really look at it in a different perspective. Put the shoe on the other foot so to speak.


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## Stephanie

oh and Poppyseed I only have male rats you have me confused with someone else. Sorry you "wasted" your time helping someone other than me


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## Poppyseed

I'm sorry, I meant Alyssa >_> I didn't mean you Stephanie D: I have no idea why I put Stephanie in the first place.

And yeah I was just venting. It's a little upset to put so much time into helping someone and for the post not to even be read or the links I have found to be seriously looked at. I geuss I really didn't expect it then so I should just shrug it off and move on but oh well.


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## 2manyrats

Your time isn't wasted - all of that info is compiled and available for other people to see & use, even if it isn't being used by the intended person.


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## Poppyseed

Very true! Maybe other people could use it.


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