# increased fighting



## jfoahs04 (Jan 25, 2011)

I know, another "my rats are fighting!" thread. I've read quite a bit but I'm still not sure of what's going on.

My two males are about 5 months old. I got them 1 day apart from each other back in February (so I've had them nearly 4 months) and had them (briefly) in a 30 gallon aquarium together before moving them into a large MW Homes 3 story cage (according to calculators, it's roomy enough for 10 adult rats) about a week and a half into owning them. 

*The Problem:*
For all intents and purposes, they've lived their lives peacefully together in the same roomy cage. Of course, one is the dominant rat- Pierre- (ironically, he's the smaller one) and they have occasionally "boxed" and tackled each other and play fought. Only occasionally would I hear a brief "chirp" of protest (usually from the same rat). However, their fights are becoming more and more serious. They don't happen all the time. In fact, I'd say maybe it's once per day. However, the protest "eeps!" from the more submissive rat- Francois- are louder and longer. It really seems like he's in pain. To be honest, he's kind of a whimp (I find it almost endearing) When I have them on my bed and they play wrestle, he may peep before the other rat even touches him. Still, now the "eeps" sound much more desperate and pained. When I hold him (the submissive one), he has some scabs (not mites/lice... I know what that looks like) and a couple of small patches of missing fur presumably from claws in the scuffles. It's worse than it's ever been. Sometimes it wakes me up at night since its so loud and prolonged. Today, for the first time (the catalyst inspiring me to write this), Francois actually puffed up and walked sideways at and away from Pierre (who was tackling him). That's an obvious sign of a non-playful aggressive rat and I've never seen that before.

I'm wondering if this is normal (i.e. the other rat is just reasserting his dominance) and will stop, or if I need to take real action. 

*Other Information:*
Nothing has really changed in the past 4 months. They're in the same big cage they've been in almost all along, I'm fairly consistent (and generous) with attention and free range time. Their cage is even in the same spot in the same room that it's always been. I even use the same bedding (carefresh) and cycle through the same 3 types of food.

Given that they were fairly young when I got them, They've both grown. In fact, Pierre was larger early on and Francois is actually quite a bit larger now. From a personality standpoint, Pierre has always been the outgoing one and Francois was VERY timid (wouldn't come out of the cage, freaked when picked up, etc). Their personalities are the same. Pierre is by far the more "personable" rat and Francois is more timid. However, Francois does love to come out of the cage and be held now. Early on, Free range time was just Pierre because Francois wouldn't come out at all. Now it's both of them. They wrestle a little outside of the cage (play), but inside is where it's most serious.

It REALLY doesn't seem like Francois is challenging Pierre's dominance. Pierre is most always the aggressor. 

They DO still cuddle in the same small hammock and groom each other. There are 3 different "houses" in the cage, but they both prefer to share one. 

It's not affecting how either of them act one on one with people. They're still as sweet as ever. 

These rats rarely ever have an empty food bowl (MAYBE once or twice early in the morning when I get up it'll be empty, but I always make sure they're fed) and they are never out of water. The cage is super clean (at least once a week for changed bedding and complete scrub down plus litter box). Neither of them have any health issues aside from the occasional sneeze.

*What I've done*
Well, not much. Due to the scabbing from scratches, I've placed their food bowl on a large, flat rock so they have to walk on it to eat. I'm hoping this helps file their nails (I REALLY don't want to have to clip them). I also try to handle them twice a day... One time with them together, and then some time with me by themselves. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do.

*The Solution?*

I'm inclined to believe that Francois "free ranging" now (he only started in mid April) is bugging Pierre. Pierre had all of this territory to himself while Francois was afraid to leave the cage (don't worry, I took him up to the bathroom daily for one on one time to help get him comfortable. It's not as if he never got out of the cage.) and now shares it. While there are no real fights while free ranging, I think it bothers him. Still, I don't get the increased severity of the fighting when they've been together for so long with no problem. What do you think? This will pass, or do I need to intervene more.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

Consider neutering them both. Do they sleep together?


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

At 5 months they are at the beginning of that 'hormonal' stage and chances are you will see an increase in fights. From what you're describing with the increased wounds, puffiness and sidling I think you need to intervene sooner rather than later before it escalates to serious injuries.

I would at the very least neuter Francois but preferably both. If you go that route just remember it can take 4-6 weeks before you start really seeing a reduction in hormones.

Good luck, boys can be a pain when they hit this age.


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## RatBastard (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm having the same trouble but mine were pals once before when they were small. I thought Wombat had a URI but ended up he was just nervous and also had allergies to the bedding. Even though he was peppy, playful and friendly, the vet said he could still be stressed and show the physical signs of stress. Anyway, Wombat was quarantined because we didn't know what he had. They were about 4 to 6 weeks old when they were first introduced and got along fine ( with the normal squabbles of course). They lived together for one month and then were they were separated for about 3 weeks ( not in the same house , Petey here, Wombat at my girls house.) They undoubtedly hit puberty in the time they were separated because now Wombat tries to attack Petey relentlessly. Petey has endured too much and he seems like he has given up because he is sick of being bit, he doesn't even really fight back anymore and Wombat still messes with him. They are both still sweet as pie to me and even wrestle with my hands without biting. I'm stumped too and I dont want to cut his nuts off for the simple fact that I wouldn't want anyone cutting mine off because I was "too" aggressive. I have tried the re Introduction steps to no avail so my question is will they have to stay separated forever now ??? Sorry if i jacked your thread but It all seemed relevant to your problem. I hope you get a solution too.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

RatBastard said:


> I'm stumped too and I dont want to cut his nuts off for the simple fact that I wouldn't want anyone cutting mine off because I was "too" aggressive.


I you were too aggressive you could go into therapy or any other form of rehab but with rats it's different of course. I would neuter them both if it meant that they could happily live together. And even if neutering wouldn't work you could give each male a female to live with in separate cages/rooms.
I know it costs money but we have to budget extra funds when getting pets.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

RatBastard said:


> I'm stumped too and I dont want to cut his nuts off for the simple fact that I wouldn't want anyone cutting mine off because I was "too" aggressive. I have tried the re Introduction steps to no avail so my question is will they have to stay separated forever now ???


I'm sorry to hijak OP, but keeping a rat separate because you are anthropomorphizing them and projecting your attachment to your testicles onto them is cruel.
You received advice in your thread that neutering would very likely reduce the aggression you are seeing and allow your rats to live together. You also didn't post that thread all that long ago, introductions between two intact males can take months. Slow down on the intros and if you don't see ANY improvement after a few more weeks either get them neutered so they can live together or rehome them. Keeping them both as lone rats because you have an issue with neutering is not fair to them.

OP, again I apologize for the sidebar.


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## jfoahs04 (Jan 25, 2011)

I know I'm about 3 months late, but I just wanted to say thanks to all of those who replied (no need to apologize for "Hijacking" the thread!). 

I also wanted to give a little update. After consulting with my vet, I decided NOT to go through with neutering them. 

The behavior for a brief span there (when I wrote the original post) was a bit scary. However, almost immediately after writing here and scheduling an appointment with the vet, the behavior improved. Even at its worst, the rats would still curl up together in the hammock or one of the houses, but the brief periods of fighting (somewhat one sided) made me nervous. 

After consulting with the vet, he said it was normal for younger rats to do what mine were doing. The recommendation was to insert objects into the cage to help them file their claws. Their food bowl now sits on a flat stone so the process of getting food also keeps claws in check (I appreciate this too). They really are buddies and although they box occasionally, there is next to no "fighting" anymore. 

For my situation, not neutering them worked out. They get along wonderfully (again with occasional boxing) and are nearly inseparable both inside and out of the cage. 

Thanks again for the help.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for the update. That was a close call for the guys. I didn't know they would ease drop when you were talking to the vet. They must have thought,"better to shape up or else....."


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

All of the boys I have had that were adults went through a period at about 5-6 months of age where they turned plain nasty. Romeo developed an obsession with attacking my feet but he quit after about two weeks and hasn't done it since. Snitch bit humans for a while then quit, although he was still mildly agressive.

I'm inclined to think a small amount of agression for a week or two is normal as the hormones increase.

I'm glad they stabilised a bit. <3


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

I'll stick with girl rats


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Ratjes, those two boys came from a BYB and a pet store. I'm sure not all of them do that and both were lovely boys. I still have on of them at 2.5 years!


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