# Can Rats have Tums and, if so, what strength?



## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

I have my rat on a kidney diet that is from the UK and one thing they say to feed them daily are "Rennies." I think these are a lot like Tums, or are Tums.

Anyway, I bought a jar of Ultra 1000 mint Tums. I would instructed to feed 1/6th of the antacid. I wanted to double check with my vet but she for some reason is not replying to my emails or returning my calls, so I was hoping I could get info here.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

nicodemus said:


> I have my rat on a kidney diet that is from the UK and one thing they say to feed them daily are "Rennies." I think these are a lot like Tums, or are Tums.
> 
> Anyway, I bought a jar of Ultra 1000 mint Tums. I would instructed to feed 1/6th of the antacid. I wanted to double check with my vet but she for some reason is not replying to my emails or returning my calls, so I was hoping I could get info here.


What is the Tums supposed to do in this "diet"? I personally wouldn't use it.

Can I ask why the kidney diet?


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

He had high concentration levels of protein in his pee. The vet said he has prelim kidney disease and that I could abate the symptoms with diet. He started feeling pretty good after I started him. I'm just supposed to give him very low protein (10-12%) and low phosphorus foods. Also, B complex vitamins and glucosamine/chondroitin. I think the tums are just supposed to help with calcium.

She's the best rat vet in town...I guess I don't have much to choose from. The other one proposed to give my rat metacam every day so I left her fast. The new vet thought maybe the metacam helped make an already-forming kidney problem worse.

Ugh. I love this guy so much. I just want to do what's right.

I've been giving him Oxbow, flax seed, fresh fruits and veggies, and little corn flakes for treats.

I give the little guys extra protein when the old man is out of the cage with me.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

nicodemus said:


> He had high concentration levels of protein in his pee. The vet said he has prelim kidney disease and that I could abate the symptoms with diet. He started feeling pretty good after I started him. I'm just supposed to give him very low protein (10-12%) and low phosphorus foods. Also, B complex vitamins and glucosamine/chondroitin. I think the tums are just supposed to help with calcium.
> 
> She's the best rat vet in town...I guess I don't have much to choose from. The other one proposed to give my rat metacam every day so I left her fast. The new vet thought maybe the metacam helped make an already-forming kidney problem worse.
> 
> ...


Since sadly renal failure is a slow and progressive issue for most rats, I just keep them on a low protein, low fat, low sugar diet, but if you want to add the calcium to the diet (you are already using flax seeds), why not try probiotic yogurt instead or kale?

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-calcium.php


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

Rennies are for heartburn- they do have calcium carbonate in them but they also have a gazillion other chemicals that I just wouldn't feel happy giving to a rat.
I would just stick with what lilspaz suggested as a way to increase the calcium. At least yoghurt or kale is natural.


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

Kale and yogurt have high phosphorus...I was told feed low phosphorus foods. They get stuff like tomatoes, corn flakes (as treats), puffed rice cereal, apples, blueberries, carrots, kale in moderation, bell peppers, and other things.

I'll heed the Rennies advice. I didn't think it sounded quite right. I'll keep him on the B vitamins and add the glucosamine.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

What I don't understand is that I understand a preventative diet for kidney issues, but this rat is Pre-kidney issues so you should be able to bend the rules a little...

Broccoli is low phosphorus and has calcium...just keep looking.


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm confused too, lilspaz. And that's why I'm so frustrated. I'm not sure if he has pre-kidney issues or not...I assume he does because he was excessively peeing and had high levels of protein in his urine.

I was told broccoli wasn't Okay...I don't know. I keep finding conflicting information. Feed cucumbers...then I see cucumbers aren't good for rats. I don't know what to do exactly. There is a dearth of rat vets around and I am seeing the best there is...apparently.

So, what should I do? He has seemed to be really healthy and happy. Just today, though, it seems he hurt his foot. We're buying a Critter Nation for him so the cage will be horizontal and give him a nice little pad below while the little boys can have the upper area.

*Sigh* I'm so sad. I love him so much and I feel helpless. Taking him to the vet tomorrow about his foot. I guess we'll see.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

nicodemus said:


> I'm confused too, lilspaz. And that's why I'm so frustrated. I'm not sure if he has pre-kidney issues or not...I assume he does because he was excessively peeing and had high levels of protein in his urine.
> 
> I was told broccoli wasn't Okay...I don't know. I keep finding conflicting information. Feed cucumbers...then I see cucumbers aren't good for rats. I don't know what to do exactly. There is a dearth of rat vets around and I am seeing the best there is...apparently.
> 
> ...


How old is he? Is his urine dark and concentrated and even has a stronger smell?

Why is broccoli and cucumber not okay? broccoli is awesome stuff, in moderation because it can cause flatulence LOL Lots of vitamins, especially the very important vitamin K for clotting, iron, calcium, lower in phosphorus. Mine don't like cucumber but others feed it 

I think you should do your own research (with any help from us you need) and give him a slightly modififed diet. Unfortunately kidney issues happen to most rats...you try to prevent it but it happens but the thing is, its not usually a terrible thing, just a slow progression as they age.


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

He's a little over 2, and I don't notice anything wrong with his pee.

I got the broccoli info from this site:

http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/guides.php?subject=kidneydiet

The vet who was seeing Nicky is also not seeing rats anymore apparently so...hmmm.

Let me know if you know of any other good sites, as maybe this particular website is not accurate.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

> I tend not to give these rats other 'treats', though they do get a little fresh veg at times. Most mineral rich veg (such as kale, broccoli, pak choi) is rich in phosphorus, but the benefits of a small amount in the diet probably outweigh this. If fed at the same time as the wet food above some of the phosphorus would be 'removed' by the phosphate binders. Of these, kale performs best for highest copper (advantageous) and lowest phosphorus.


You can give him some Kale or broccoli 

The fancy rats forum is usually pretty accurate.


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## shawnalaufer (Aug 21, 2011)

I found this: http://www.livestrong.com/article/349693-foods-with-high-calcium-and-low-phosphorus/
Of course we would automatically eliminate the oranges, especially with a male, but what about the cabbage, cinnamon, and basil? 

And here is another link that is more specific to pets: http://www.nessexotic.com/docs/Calcium.pdf
It even has a "Foods marked with an asterisk (*) SHOULD BE AVOIDED IN ANIMALS WITH KIDNEY DISEASE due to their high phosphorus content." warning. 

Might help ya come up with some options.


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks, you guys are awesome!

We went to a new vet. We got some buprenorphine for his foot - the vet thought he sprained something pretty good, but it's not broken, fortunately.

We talked a lot about the renal diet, and she quoted the fancy rats article again. LOL

She said that if I feed kale and broccoli that I can, but in moderation, like the article says.  Yes, kale and broccoli are Okay but not all the time. I guess I realize that now!

We agreed I should go off the Oxbow simply because he doesn't like it too much and the Harlan Teklad is much easier to portion out. I know that rats are supposed to get between 4 and 7 blocks daily, so I'll give him four! And call it good. We also talked about me feeding him small amounts of crumbled up rice cakes and corn flakes and that it makes him feel special to be fed that.

I still don't know about those Rennies (the fancy rats article suggests it) but I guess I won't give them to him because I'm just not sure.

Do ya'll think I'm onto something good here? I'm also going to add glucosamine chondroitin and B complex vitamins.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

How about some lacto-free milk?Do you guys have that stuff for lactose intolerant people?He could get some calcium from that and I doubt milk is high in phosphorous.I mean I guess people have used the Rennies and it's worked otherwise people wouldn't keep going on about it, but just for some calcium? I have no problem giving children's medication filled with chemicals where a natural thing just isn't going to cut it, but calcium is natural and can be obtained from other sources so it makes me feel a bit uneasy. It's up to you I guess. I tell you what- I'll post a topic on the fancy rats forum for you (I'm a member) and see what they say about the Rennies

ETA: I read through the article properly and it says the Rennies are used to bind phosphate. I don't know if that's related to calcium or not :/
I asked about it on the forum anyway so we'll see what they say.


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

Maltey, that'd be excellent!!

What a great community this is. I'm so happy. 

I wanted to mention something too that I find a bit odd. On the link that Shawna gave me about calcium and phosphorous foods it says corn is a bad food to feed for kidney disease animals. But the Fancy Rats articles INCLUDES corn as part of its diet! This is why I'm confused. 

Also, I thought bell peppers, carrots, peas, tomatoes, squash, green beans, etc. were all fine, but the above link says they're not. HOWEVER, Mayo Clinic lists the aforementioned foods as low phosphorus (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/HQ01212). What end is up? LOL


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

They're quite a knowledgable bunch over there. 
They said:

The Rennies are supposed to increase calcium _and _bind phosphate- it's the calcium that does the binding. So that's that confusion cleared up.
Also, they suggested something called Ipakitine- it's made for cats/dogs with failing kidneys and they said they feel much more comfortable giving that because it's made specifically for animals. That might be something worth mentioning to your vet. Apparently you can buy it OTC here, but I don't know if you even have it there or where you'd get it from. Something to look up though


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## nicodemus (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks a lot, Maltey! I really appreciate your help.


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