# They're so unhappy



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

I've had my two boys for almost two months now. One of them still cries pretty much all the time and shrieks whenever I touch him (I've never successfully picked him up) and the other one can be picked up but is extremely aggressive (during free range time he ran over and attacked my hand. I had to get 4 stitches in my finger). I do free range time (in the bath or just the bathroom) twice a day for a total of about 2 hours. And we're getting no where. They are evidently very unhappy. I am very unhappy (I just had to say a final sweet dreams to my hamster with whom I had an amazing bond with which definitely isn't helping the situation). Everything I do scares them. I really am at the end of my tether with them. I'm not the kind of person to get rid of pets as, to me, they are family. But they're so unhappy I just don't know what to do. Any ideas?


----------



## BearNecessities (Dec 6, 2016)

Have you read the trust training thread in Rat Behaviour? It's very helpful. How old are they? Male 2 sounds like he may have aggression issues, these usually come to light at 6-9 months should they be present. Getting him neutered may be your only option. Then again, he just may be incredibly fearful of human interaction and acts out with violence. Where are they from? It's not uncommon for pet shop rats to be untame.


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm sorry you have to deal with that, I know it would be really upsetting. Maybe we can try to help but could you let us know what steps you've taken so far to try to socialize these boys (like trust-training or immersion etc.)? And the one who is aggressive, does he act hormonal? Does he puff up a lot? Any fighting between them? Territorial? It's rare for a rat to act out like that so hormonal aggression is the first thing I'd suspect with him. Also, who did you get them from? Were they rescues, were they babies when you got them, etc.?


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

BearNecessities said:


> Have you read the trust training thread in Rat Behaviour? It's very helpful. How old are they? Male 2 sounds like he may have aggression issues, these usually come to light at 6-9 months should they be present. Getting him neutered may be your only option. Then again, he just may be incredibly fearful of human interaction and acts out with violence. Where are they from? It's not uncommon for pet shop rats to be untame.


I don't think I have, I will definitely go and have a look. They are about 6 months old I believe (I got them at 16 weeks old) They're from a pet shop however it is a highly reputable one, for example they rescued a hamster from student accommodation and then wouldn't let him go to anyone unless they were interviewed to make sure they would look after them properly. I have photos of the people in the shop holding them - I have never been about to hold them from more than a couple of seconds (and that's only the aggressive one, who is called Ignatius. Templeton, my little cry baby, completely freaks if I go anywhere near him. Really don't want to get them neutered unless it is essential, not because of cost but because I've looked after past ratties who have had operations and they are nightmares. Plus if I can't hold this lot and something went wrong I wouldn't be able to give them meds.


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> I'm sorry you have to deal with that, I know it would be really upsetting. Maybe we can try to help but could you let us know what steps you've taken so far to try to socialize these boys (like trust-training or immersion etc.)? And the one who is aggressive, does he act hormonal? Does he puff up a lot? Any fighting between them? Territorial? It's rare for a rat to act out like that so hormonal aggression is the first thing I'd suspect with him. Also, who did you get them from? Were they rescues, were they babies when you got them, etc.?


Okay, so socialising wise I have tried a couple of things:

Initially I was trying the gently gently approach, leaving food in the cage whenever I went past, waiting until they'd run and get it straight away until I started leaving the food on my hand for them. Then waiting until they were confident with this to get them to the cage door, then try the stroke, then try to pick up. After 3 weeks of having my hand attacked I gave up on this one. They seemed to be regressing. Templeton yelps like a puppy crying all the time and physically shakes when go near them. 

I don't feel comfortable with forced socialisation so I tried a sort of in between tactic. I moved their cage into the bathroom and for a couple of hours a day I sit in there with them with the doors open. They're more than happy to come out and Ignatius is more than happy to take treats from my hand (when he isn't randomly attacking me). I can pick him up but he does fight me and is obviously very scared so I only do this if I have to get him back into the cage. He will run around and explore. Templeton will run until he finds a hidey hole and then he will sit there and cry. 

I did try the bath technique which I've had great success with in the past, I thought this was working as they climbed all over me until I realised they were actually using me as a means to throw themselves out of the bath. I was worried they would hurt themselves so haven't tried this again.

I have heard success stories of people putting rats down their tops but right now that seems like it wouldn't work.

In terms of Ignatius being hormonal I'm not sure. I've had two rats in the past but I always had singletons (I know this is awful, one I got when I was 9 and I didn't know better and the other was a rescue and a very old lady) so when they 'play' I'm never sure if they are actually fighting. Ignatius pushes Templeton around a fair bit (he steals food from his mouth and literally pushes him off of their rope bridge.) They both have a fair amount of scratches but they are double rexes so I believe this is normal and none of them are particularly deep. He never puffs up and doesn't seem too territorial, although I'm not entirely sure what that would look like.

They're from a pet shop however it is a highly reputable one, for example they rescued a hamster from student accommodation and then wouldn't let him go to anyone unless they were interviewed to make sure they would look after them properly. I have photos of the people in the shop holding them which suggests to me, along with their reputation, that they would have been handled a fair bit. I got them at 16 weeks old so they are about 6 months old now.

Sorry for such a long reply, I want to make sure I get all the right information out. I pretty much end up crying every night over them, I'm so stuck on what to do.


----------



## Coffeebean (Jan 6, 2017)

Hormonal aggression can manifest as hair-raising, boxing, chasing, sidling, rubbing against things, digging with front paws, huffing, and generally lots of harassing. Do you seem him do these things? I don't deny that the shop is good but if their parents had behavioral issues in their lines it could easily be passed down. It sounds really abnormal and it's just very suspect that they both have these issues. Pet rats shouldn't be sending their owners to get stitches. It's even possible that it's become a learned behavior, that he has found that chomping down on you may get him where he wants to go, if you put him back afterwards (and I don't blame you if you put him down after being chomped on!). So it's a question of whether it could be fixed by neutering or if this is just their born behavior. Because it sounds like you are doing a lot for them to try to help them and they just aren't improving. Like I said, it's bizarre... I'm sorry, I don't know what more you can do besides neutering (that doesn't fix Templeton though). If you don't want to stick anyone into your shirt, you could always invest in some ratoobs/bonding pouches. If you don't feel comfortable with forced socialization (it think it would be difficult with these kisd) I'm not sure that there's a lot more that I can suggest. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time with them. Hopefully someone with more experience with these issues can chime in.


----------



## teniosa (Apr 7, 2017)

When you say the timid one cries all the time... Do you mean all the time he's near you, or all the time, even if you're two rooms away? I'm wondering if all the time, if it's a medical concern or that your other guy isn't ever giving him a break and the stress is carrying over to you.


----------



## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

It sounds like his aggression could be a fear issue from not being handled by humans rather than a hormonal issue.


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

Coffeebean said:


> Hormonal aggression can manifest as hair-raising, boxing, chasing, sidling, rubbing against things, digging with front paws, huffing, and generally lots of harassing. Do you seem him do these things? I don't deny that the shop is good but if their parents had behavioral issues in their lines it could easily be passed down. It sounds really abnormal and it's just very suspect that they both have these issues. Pet rats shouldn't be sending their owners to get stitches. It's even possible that it's become a learned behavior, that he has found that chomping down on you may get him where he wants to go, if you put him back afterwards (and I don't blame you if you put him down after being chomped on!). So it's a question of whether it could be fixed by neutering or if this is just their born behavior. Because it sounds like you are doing a lot for them to try to help them and they just aren't improving. Like I said, it's bizarre... I'm sorry, I don't know what more you can do besides neutering (that doesn't fix Templeton though). If you don't want to stick anyone into your shirt, you could always invest in some ratoobs/bonding pouches. If you don't feel comfortable with forced socialization (it think it would be difficult with these kisd) I'm not sure that there's a lot more that I can suggest. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time with them. Hopefully someone with more experience with these issues can chime in.


He doesn't do any of those things that I am aware of. So is he just a nut job? They do both absolutely stink, I was wondering if that was hormonal? Yes biting does often get him what he wants (to be put down). 

I try my best not to but it's a knee jerk reaction. I would happily stick them down my shirt but I can't pick them up so I'm not sure how well it would work. I've never heard of bonding pouches so they're something I will definitely look into, thank you!


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

teniosa said:


> When you say the timid one cries all the time... Do you mean all the time he's near you, or all the time, even if you're two rooms away? I'm wondering if all the time, if it's a medical concern or that your other guy isn't ever giving him a break and the stress is carrying over to you.


He literally sobs, it's horrible. It's when I open the cage, when Ignatius steals his food, when someone looks at him funny. He generally only stops when Ignatius goes and cuddles him. When I'm at university they live in my en suit bathroom (for free range time, I have a whiplash injury so I struggle to lift the cage multiple time a day) and I can hear him crying from my room. 

I spoke to the vet on the phone about this and she said as he stops whenever he gets what he wants then she thinks it is just attention seeking and not a respiratory disease like I was worried about. 

He 'mutters' to himself as he walks around sometimes so I think he's just super vocal. He does however shriek whenever I touch him (at first I thought he was hurt but after some experimentation he shrieks wherever I touch him so it definitely isn't a pain thing.)


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

Fu-Inle said:


> It sounds like his aggression could be a fear issue from not being handled by humans rather than a hormonal issue.


Do you have any suggestions for how to make him less scared?


----------



## teniosa (Apr 7, 2017)

With my timid rats, I wear comfy (heavy, old) clothes and put on an old robe over them, tying the belt nice and tight, but with lots of loose space above the belt. Then I stuff them in my robe and let them chill. They're usually too scared to come out much, so they spend lots of time getting used to my smell and warmth and heartbeat n stuff. All 3 of my girls got super friendly in no time. I'd try that with the timid guy. Maybe throw some of his favorite treats in with him when he's ready. 

For the aggressive guy, I'd try the immersion therapy from the sticky. While wearing heavy gloves and stuff. I know you don't like forced attention... but at a certain point I think they need the lesson. Another rat wouldn't respect his wants if he was attackig them. They'd pin him and tell him to cut it out.


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

teniosa said:


> With my timid rats, I wear comfy (heavy, old) clothes and put on an old robe over them, tying the belt nice and tight, but with lots of loose space above the belt. Then I stuff them in my robe and let them chill. They're usually too scared to come out much, so they spend lots of time getting used to my smell and warmth and heartbeat n stuff. All 3 of my girls got super friendly in no time. I'd try that with the timid guy. Maybe throw some of his favorite treats in with him when he's ready.
> 
> For the aggressive guy, I'd try the immersion therapy from the sticky. While wearing heavy gloves and stuff. I know you don't like forced attention... but at a certain point I think they need the lesson. Another rat wouldn't respect his wants if he was attackig them. They'd pin him and tell him to cut it out.


I was thinking about this technique, for my aggressive boy, Ignatius, it would work and I am planning to try it but I have never been able to pick Templeton up so I have no idea how I would get him in there  

Thank you so much for you advice - I've just purchased a very thick pair of gloves haha


----------



## RattyMomma1 (Apr 13, 2017)

I have 4 females, and one of my girls is a mean girl. She was attacking me as soon as I put my hand into the cage. I kind of figured it wasn't out of fear because I have a very large cage and I could be on a totally different level as far away from her as could be and she would intentionally come after me and attack me. I've never had to get stitches thankfully, but some of the bites were pretty nasty.

I decided to use the forced technique with my trusty robe. I had a heck of a time getting her out of the cage, so I got a towel and threw it over her then scooped her up in the towel, kept her wrapped up and transferred her into my robe, then removed the towel. I zipped the robe up almost the whole way and went about my business for about 2 hours a go. After two days of doing that twice a day, I could then go right up to the cage with my robe on and invite her in, and she would crawl right in ... didn't even have to pick her up. Lol. Also, to get her back into the cage at first I would just open the cage and open the robe to the cage door and she would return to her cage without me having to pick her up. I would definitely recommend you trying that with your mean boy.

Also, just a thought ... but I've read that some ratties are very territorial of their cage and some groups of ratties actually have one rat that is basically the designated guardian of the home .. kind of like an attack dog or in this case attack rat. Well, since you've been keeping your cage in the bathroom, and you do have a lot of free range time .. therefore he is out of the cage quite a bit .. plus idk about you but my bathroom isn't that big of a space .. I think that he may feel he has to protect the entire bathroom instead of just his cage because maybe to him, the entire bathroom is his home and his cage is just his hideaway area. Kind of like normally the entire cage is their home but their little igloo or box or whatnot is their hideaway area.

Also with the territorial guardian rattie, the bigger the area he has to protect, the more stressed out he will become and the more stressed out he becomes, the more likely he will be to bite. 

Now since you go into the bathroom .. aka his cage in this example, you are technically going into his home uninvited and so he attacks you. I really think that that might be what is what is going on with your mean boy. Can you rig up some other area of your house for a session of free range time and see if he acts the same way in a different area of your home? That way you are not invading what he feels like is HIS space... I would definitely try that out and see if he acts any differently. And stop using your bathroom all together for play time for a while and maybe try covering the back part of their cage too so if he is being the watchdog, his stress level may go down if he doesn't have to guard the whole bathroom if you quit letting them out for playtime in there, and also he won't have to guard 360 degrees around his cage because the back will be covered. That may greatly reduce his stress level if this is indeed his problem .. which will also help cause less attacks on you.

Now I know you have a heck of a time even getting him out of the cage and that's why it's in the bathroom in the first place, but you have to find a way to get him out of there and take him into a different play area. I would use an entire bath towel and toss it right over him and scoop him up in the towel and make sure he is wrapped up real good to get him out. Heck even put on gloves even though you are using the whole towel to add another layer of protection.

As far as you cry baby (lol), I've never had one that cried that much, but I had an older rattie that I adopted that would cry a bit every time I picked her up. But once I had her with me she was ok. I would maybe try the towel to get him out as well and the robe technique with him also. Just do not do both boys at the same time! Lol. But if your lil guy is crying to get what he wants then maybe it's time you make him do things anyways. Try the robe thingy with him a couple times a day for a good amount of time. Make him have to snuggle with you for a while instead of his cage mate since you said the snuggling calms him down. Maybe the other rattie is stressing him out too much and he whines until the other one calms down and cuddles with him. Idk. It could be a lot of things, but maybe the little guy who cries a lot might really learn to love some time alone time somewhere nice and warm and safe with you .. and the robe is the perfect place for him to get that. Just cart him around for a couple hours and talk to him and rub him through the robe where he is hanging out even if he cries the whole time. As long as he isn't in pain that is. 

I'm definitely no expert and I'm sorry if this seems to be like I'm a no it all or something because I am definitely NOT! Lmao. I just feel so bad for you and I spent some time really thinking of some stuff to suggest for you to try out because you seem to be doing everything you can think of and trying so hard to no avail. I couldn't imagine what I would've done if my girl didn't ever change her attack attitude and I tried everything. It has to be more than frustrating! Please let me know if you try any of this stuff and if so how it works out. I hope you keep us updated because I really hope something works soon for you and your little guys!!!!! Good Luck


----------



## RattyMomma1 (Apr 13, 2017)

Oh, and I'm sorry for the run on paragraph at the end there in my last post. It's 4am and I'm obviously not that good at writing anything on no sleep. Lolol.


----------



## Ratologist (Nov 24, 2016)

Gwenfaire said:


> He 'mutters' to himself as he walks around sometimes so I think he's just super vocal. He does however shriek whenever I touch him (at first I thought he was hurt but after some experimentation he shrieks wherever I touch him so it definitely isn't a pain thing.)


Hi there. I think from your description that your rat is sick or in pain. Rats are not "vocal" in the muttering way that you describe. As I understand it, they squeak, peep, or shriek in response to play wrestling/grooming and pain. They brux (click their teeth) when stressed OR happy. They hiss. And they make some other noises outside the frequency range that can be heard by human ears. Other vocalizations: mutters, warbles, etc... are typically resulting from respiratory issues of some kind. It's not vocalizing stemming from vocal chords. It can get worse when the rat is stressed or upset because their breathing changes. And it can get better when the rat gets what he wants because he's more calm then.


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

RattyMomma1 said:


> I have 4 females, and one of my girls is a mean girl. She was attacking me as soon as I put my hand into the cage. I kind of figured it wasn't out of fear because I have a very large cage and I could be on a totally different level as far away from her as could be and she would intentionally come after me and attack me. I've never had to get stitches thankfully, but some of the bites were pretty nasty.
> 
> I decided to use the forced technique with my trusty robe. I had a heck of a time getting her out of the cage, so I got a towel and threw it over her then scooped her up in the towel, kept her wrapped up and transferred her into my robe, then removed the towel. I zipped the robe up almost the whole way and went about my business for about 2 hours a go. After two days of doing that twice a day, I could then go right up to the cage with my robe on and invite her in, and she would crawl right in ... didn't even have to pick her up. Lol. Also, to get her back into the cage at first I would just open the cage and open the robe to the cage door and she would return to her cage without me having to pick her up. I would definitely recommend you trying that with your mean boy.
> 
> ...


Hi, thank you for taking so much time to reply, it is so appreciated. I think it is definitely time to invest in a robe! 

My bathroom is relatively big. Unfortunately I'm a bit confined for space, I'm a student and I live with 3 other people. The downstairs is open plan with lots of places they could get into the walls (my housemate lost her pet snake that way so I feel a bit paranoid!) I have the en-suite which is reasonable big with a fair amount of floor space. My bedroom is literally a desk, bed and built in wardrobe so there no room for the cage to even be on the floor (I like to let them climb out themselves at the moment, I don't want them being scared of a giant hand invading there home.) I said in an earlier comment that I have a relatively severe whiplash injury so I'm unable to carry their cage around (hence why they got moved into the bathroom.) However, that does totally make sense as to why he would be so aggressive. Maybe I could invest in a puppy pen type thing and take over the living room for a bit. They do have a cat basket (they travel between uni and home with me) which they happily go into so maybe that would be a good way to get them downstairs. I do have a nice thick pair of gloves which I use when I have to pick them up.

Ignatius (bully) does often push Templeton (cry baby) around and sometimes I have woken up to him crying only to find he's being pushed off their rope balcony or actually pinned against the wall. I hate it and always go and split them up but I don't really know how to stop it long term. 

I will go into town tomorrow and by a robe and get back to you on how it goes!

Thank you again! x


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

Ratologist said:


> Hi there. I think from your description that your rat is sick or in pain. Rats are not "vocal" in the muttering way that you describe. As I understand it, they squeak, peep, or shriek in response to play wrestling/grooming and pain. They brux (click their teeth) when stressed OR happy. They hiss. And they make some other noises outside the frequency range that can be heard by human ears. Other vocalizations: mutters, warbles, etc... are typically resulting from respiratory issues of some kind. It's not vocalizing stemming from vocal chords. It can get worse when the rat is stressed or upset because their breathing changes. And it can get better when the rat gets what he wants because he's more calm then.


I did phone a vet (with whom I have a very good relationship thanks to my hamster having long term health problems and needing several experimental operations) and after describing the problems she said she doubts it is a health problem. However, once they are able to be handled (and given medicine if necessary) I will be taking them both for a check up which I like to do with any new pet. For now this is just unrealistic, no one has successfully handled Templeton, who is the vocal one, and I wouldn't be able to give him medicine without mixing it in baby food, which I then wouldn't be able to stop the other one eating (I unfortunately don't have another cage and can't really afford to doll out another £80 in order to separate them.) Hopefully I will be able to get them there within a month!


----------



## RattyMomma1 (Apr 13, 2017)

Gwenfaire said:


> Hi, thank you for taking so much time to reply, it is so appreciated. I think it is definitely time to invest in a robe!
> 
> My bathroom is relatively big. Unfortunately I'm a bit confined for space, I'm a student and I live with 3 other people. The downstairs is open plan with lots of places they could get into the walls (my housemate lost her pet snake that way so I feel a bit paranoid!) I have the en-suite which is reasonable big with a fair amount of floor space. My bedroom is literally a desk, bed and built in wardrobe so there no room for the cage to even be on the floor (I like to let them climb out themselves at the moment, I don't want them being scared of a giant hand invading there home.) I said in an earlier comment that I have a relatively severe whiplash injury so I'm unable to carry their cage around (hence why they got moved into the bathroom.) However, that does totally make sense as to why he would be so aggressive. Maybe I could invest in a puppy pen type thing and take over the living room for a bit. They do have a cat basket (they travel between uni and home with me) which they happily go into so maybe that would be a good way to get them downstairs. I do have a nice thick pair of gloves which I use when I have to pick them up.
> 
> ...



I know you haven't been picking them up and just opening the cage so they can get out, but that may be another reason that they aren't moving that far along with the whole trust thing also. I know you shouldn't force yourself on them because that could mess up the trust training, but on the other hand you have to pick them up and handle them so they know that nothing bad is gonna happen to them when they're with you. Also that might help you with the whole dominating thing. Like ... I'm the boss of you, I'm picking you up .. and you're going to deal with it. Lololol!!! But as far as getting the barricade thing, that is a great idea!! That's how I do it too. I have my bedroom set up where I blocked off a corner of my room with two old closet doors, and I just take them in there for playtime. 

I think you should take them out and use the carrier to get them to the living room if you can make a playpen in there for them. Just put your gloves on and cover him with a towel and then scoop him up and wrap the towel around him to get him to the carrier. But I really think you should definitely try to start picking them up. I think it's fine to keep their cage in the bathroom as long as you take them someplace else for playtime. And maybe cover up the back of the cage so they feel a little more secure in case your mean boy is the cage guarding type. That will help with his stress level I think.

And I'm so excited to hear what happens with the robe! It's my favorite thing to do with my girls. And they love it so much. Idk why either. There's nothing to explore in there, it doesn't look like it would be any fun .. but they love it. They actually dive in when I come up to the cage with it on. And they spend so much time in there. I personally don't understand their fascination with it, but they can't get enough!

Definitely let us know how it goes with your boys! And I personally can't wait to hear about how they respond to the robe. Lolol!!! Good Luck!


----------



## Gwenfaire (Feb 24, 2017)

One on the lap, one in the dressing gown. We're not quite there yet (I got savaged yesterday - thank god for gloves!) but this is a huge improvement!

(Sorry for sideways photo, I have no idea how to get it the other way round)


----------

