# Rat Study in the Classroom



## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

I am a permanent substitute for a fourth grade teacher who is on maternity leave. Ourr fourth grade classes are participating the “The Great Grow Along: A Tale of Two Rats & You”. It is a unit on health and nutrition designed by the National Dairy Council to “bring together the scientific method and nutrition concepts ina fun and exciting, six-week educational program… Through an animal feeding project that lasts four weeks, students witness the effect of nutrition on growth and are challenged to reflect their own food behaviors.”

Basically, this experiment uses two young female PEWs as “test subjects”. They are kept in separate cages and are fed restricted, carefully monitored diets. Their food is identical, but one rat is given milk and one is given sugar water. The students then observe the rats as they grow, noting differences between the two rats. Supposedly, the sugar water rat will be much less developed--she will be much smaller, have a duller looking coat, and apparently will not as friendly.

I am worrying a lot about this. As a maternity leave teacher, I don't have a say in what I do and don't teach. In the packet of information we got about the unit, there was not a single bit of information regarding the ethics of this study. It says nothing about what happens to the rats after the experiment is completed. Eventually, the sugar water rat will be put on a normal diet, but not before she has stopped growing. I worry about the long-term effects this could have... Will she always remain small? What will the sugar water do to her health? How will she do without much calcium? Will her personality suffer? What lasting ill effects could there be? What about the effects of keeping them separated? Also, I am worried that the students will regard the rats only as parts of an experiment, and not as living, breathing creatures just like us. I plan to spend some time talking with the students about rats… To dispel myths, explain what they’re like, how to properly keep them as pets, etc. I want them to respect them, even if they don’t like them. I also want them to appreciate what these rats are “doing” for us for the sake of education.

The instructions on how to keep the rats is depressing:
*a cage—it gives directions on how to make a cage made from baking pans (resulting in a floor surface of ten inches in diameter)
*a place away from drafts or direct sunlight
*bedding of shredded paper or paper towels
*food jars—they suggest glass baby food jars—and no suspended water bottles
Oh, and if the rat begins sneezing or coughing, you can put in an old sock or mitten to provide some extra warmth. I understand these are only the “minimum” requirements, but for people who aren’t knowledgeable about rats, they’d probably think this was sufficient.

I’ve sent an email to the NDC about this and will hopefully receive a response soon. While I have no choice but to teach this unit, I fully intend to make the best of it and insure that the rats are given the best life possible given the circumstances. I have two rats at home, so I have a lot of extra rat things I can use. Their cages will be as lavish as possible (I have two big rabbit cages lying around that I can use) with hammocks, wheels, and toys. I plan to have them out to play as often as possible (they can run around on my desk after the kids leave!). Still, does anyone have any suggestions on how to make sure we get as much out of this as possible, and how I can keep the rats happy?

Thanks!
Rachel


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I worry not only about the rat being given sugar water (which may horribly increase the chances of her developing tumours later on in life) but the rat being given milk. Dairy is not something a rat should be given long term .. it's not going to increase the health of the rat .. soy milk would be a better alternative or hey, what about regular water? Where is the base group for these rats?

In fact, as far as I can see, the experiment is pointless cruelty as neither of these diets are at all healthy for the rats in question. Therefore, how can you encourage healthy eating in the children? Milk = bad. Sugar = bad. Too much calcium can be as bad as having not enough ..

I don't understand the ethics of point of this at all. It doesn't seem like much "fun" or "excitement" to me at all. The benefits of the experiment certainly don't outweigh the negatives, even if is for 4 weeks.

To answer some of your questions though .. rats should be fully grown by about 8 months. The 4 week period of the study shouldn't effect them much, but depending upon the age of the rats it could have an effect. I hope the experiment isn't intended to be continued after the period of 4 weeks by someone else? A 4 week period of being alone isn't ideal, but the rats will cope. You could probably give them play time together outside of the cage (even in a pen perhaps?) together every day so that they have SOME interraction. Perhaps at the end of the study they could be housed together without much need for introductory processes if this is prepared beforehand also. As food or liquids aren't involved in playtime, it can't effect the "study".

You are doing what you can considering the restraints placed upon you, but I think you are definately right to raise the ethics of this expermiment.


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## DiscoAvenue (Dec 7, 2008)

this is sad. total bs. and. im sorry to bring you down but you cannot take the rats out or make them interact with each other as you stated that the sugar water will be less social. and therefore flaw the experiment. i think having rats as pets in a classroom is a great idea. not doing scientific experience in front of a public. 

basically what im trying to say is this experiment is flawed and pointless.
1. considering you only have them for 4 weeks you will most likely not see mush difference(hopefully).
2. neither sugar water or milk is part of their natural dietary habits. it is irrelevant.
3. teaching children to treat pets as scientific experiments is morally wrong.

could you possibly modify the experiment? feeding 1 rat with only basic nutrience and the other with fresh fruits vegetables cooked meats.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Reading about this horrible "experiment" makes me sad and like Ration I don't see the point to it nor do I understand what is meant to be scientific about it. Unless I’m missing something it’s just a shameless plug for the dairy council at the expense of a couple of rats. 

Anyway well done for writing to the dairy council. I do hope they will address your concerns but you may be fighting an uphill battle because it looks like they're been running this nasty experiment for over 10 years already so they obviously can’t see anything wrong with it.

http://www.indianadairycouncil.org/dnci_page02.html

http://www.doe.in.gov/milken/minutes_2003-12-04.html

For what it’s worth I reckon the two rats that end up in your class will be the lucky ones. (I assume this is a state-wide thing so who knows how many schools are participating.)

Under the circumstances probably the best thing you can do for those rats is keep them stimulated. Using bigger cages with toys is a great start, as is spending time with them after school as you've mentioned. Would taking them home overnight be an option too? And what happens on weekends?

According to that top link the rats are supposedly adopted by a student after the experiment. I don't know who would be responsible for deciding which child they were adopted to (if that is what happens) but perhaps you could be involved in the process so you can ensure the child and their parents are aware of what is involved with properly caring for a rat. ( For example you need to treat a possible respiratory infection with antibiotics and not old socks.) That way at least you’ll know the rats should have a happy future after the 4 weeks is over.

Or... perhaps you could even consider adopting them and taking them home to join your rats?

Anyway well done for speaking up and trying to make the best out of this unpleasant situation. Best of luck with it.


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

I am so distressed over this information, it's difficult for me to respond. 

This can't even be considered a scientific experiment. It's abusive, unethical, and simply put... completely unscientific. 

What is the purpose of the experiment (what are the children supposed to learn)? What is the hypothesis?

Where is the control group (I hope to god that the rats at least have access to normal water on top of the other options) - there is no rat that receives the same diet and water alone, this is BASIC scientific method! 

Soy milk is a much better option - some rats can be lactose intolerant. It sickens me that anybody would be promoting this "experiment" and that somebody can even pass it off as scientific. 



> could you possibly modify the experiment? feeding 1 rat with only basic nutrience and the other with fresh fruits vegetables cooked meats.


I second this idea. 


And also - I'm not yelling at you, Rachel, I'm just completely overwhelmed with the stupidity of whoever designed, and is encouraging this experiment - and the fact that it is these people who are 'managing' our school systems. I'm happy that you've taken the time to post here - we need more people like you teaching children. 


ETA: Is there any way we can get a lot of people to call or email the dairy council about this? Julie Hardin is the contact on the website outlining the "experiment". Phone number is 317-842-3060 email is hardin @ mpsiinc . com. I'll be calling her tomorrow.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Phew! I'm SO glad for some support! The other teachers don't seem to be bothered in the slightest.

The "point" of this experiment is to teach the children the importance of a well-balanced meal, focusing of course on being sure to get plenty of dairy products. Also, it is supposed to teach the children about the Scientific Method and how to document observations and change.

Unfortunately, the rats are given ONLY milk (whole milk) or ONLY sugar water. The milk rat is supposedly the control.



> im sorry to bring you down but you cannot take the rats out or make them interact with each other as you stated that the sugar water will be less social. and therefore flaw the experiment.


Don't worry, they will be VERY closely monitored when they are out together, to be sure that the sugar water rat doesn't cause problems. Maybe it will flaw the experiment, but since I won't be feeding them anything while they're out to play, I'm going to do it anyway! 



> could you possibly modify the experiment? feeding 1 rat with only basic nutrience and the other with fresh fruits vegetables cooked meats.


I'll see what I can do about modyfing the experiment, but I'm not sure the teachers will go for it. Honestly, that's what I thought this project was when they first told me about it... That one rat would be on a traditional lab block diet, and the other would have a variety of healthy foods.



> Under the circumstances probably the best thing you can do for those rats is keep them stimulated. Using bigger cages with toys is a great start, as is spending time with them after school as you've mentioned. Would taking them home overnight be an option too? And what happens on weekends?


I'm using the two biggest spare cages I have for them (they're both this cage: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753290). I have an extra pen for them to run around in, and I think I will allow two or three of my most responsible kids to stay in during recess and play with them. As I live about 40 minutes away from school, it will be difficult to haul them back and forth every day, since I'd have to bring their cages with me. I will take them home on the weekends though!



> According to that top link the rats are supposedly adopted by a student after the experiment. I don't know who would be responsible for deciding which child they were adopted to (if that is what happens) but perhaps you could be involved in the process so you can ensure the child and their parents are aware of what is involved with properly caring for a rat. ( For example you need to treat a possible respiratory infection with antibiotics and not old socks.) That way at least you’ll know the rats should have a happy future after the 4 weeks is over.
> 
> Or... perhaps you could even consider adopting them and taking them home to join your rats?


I will be creating an application for the students and their parents to fill out if they are considering adopting them. They will be adopted out together. They will also be receiving a giant packet of all the information I've collected on PROPER rat care. I would LOVE to take them myself, but my rats are males, and I simply don't have the money or space for a new "girls" cage. The boys' cage is big enough that the girls could join them, but I can't afford to get the boys neutered.

I should clarify, now that I've read through the packet, that the rat feeding part only lasts TWO weeks. The first week is an introduction period to lead up to the rats, and the last week is a follow-week. So, maybe it's slightly more comforting to know that the rats will be subjected to this for two weeks instead of four.

My dad is a toxicologist, so he has been around animal testing for a long time. I don't bring this up to start arguments about medical testing on animals, only to say that my dad knows all about TRULY scientific research with a point and even he agreed that the project was ridiculous. Even lab rats used in medical testing receive better housing and are always never kept isolated. Anyway, he's friends with a man who works from the company that will be supplying the rats for our school, and I'm going to talk to him to see if he would come in and talk with my class. He is a veterinarian with a great love of rats--has has personally come to my house to examine one of my rats with a URI and gave a prescription for me--and he would do a great job of explaining the respect we must have for rats.

Also, I talked to one of the teachers about how I would be leading into the project by spending plenty of time talking with my students about how fabulous rats are and how they should be properly treated, and she asked me to come speak to her class about it too! So, at the very least, I might be able to speak to most of the fourth grade and provide them with information their teachers are probably unaware of.

Thanks for the suggestions, and thanks for the support!! I'll re-post when I get a reply from Julie Hardin (317-842-3060 email is hardin @ mpsiinc . com, if anyone else would like to talk to her).


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm glad these two rats are going to get some care out of this.

I'm not too ethically minded (towards humans) if animal welfare comes first. In your position, I would be incredibly tempted to switch water bottles overnight or water them down a heck of a lot (when rats do most of their drinking anyway) and at weekends ... the kids would still learn about the rats, they would still spend the time studying them and observing for differences (you would probably get enough from individual differences anyway). It would be win win for everyone, including the rats.

I hope they reconsider the experiment and make it a little more ethical, even if it's just within your school.

Good luck


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

Idea - Can you send home the experiment to the parents, explain your concerns, and outline an alternative, asking for support?? 

The milk rat is not a control in the slightest - In effect, you could be comparing candy canes and vodka, saying that the candy canes are part of a balanced healthy diet. 

Sure, the rat who only ate candy canes is probably going to live and develop better than the one who only had access to vodka (or rather, just not regress so quickly), but does that mean that they are healthy?? Milk for rats is not healthy, even if it is for children (and again... you shouldn't feed milk to MOST animals, including most people that aren't of western European descent). 

Think about the idea that they're only getting milk or sugar water too... you're teaching kids that if they drink JUST milk, that's a balanced, healthy diet. Even aside from the ethics of the experiment (I'm happy it's only 2 weeks, but not thrilled), it's just plain and simple a bad experiment, and teaches the children nothing. It's a *propaganda* experiment, done improperly, to try and sway the minds of children who may not know how to ask the right questions.

(When I was little, my mom told me that the cows would die if I didn't drink my milk... a bit of a stretch, but I argue still more accurate than this experiment)

*So - What you can do is outline a better experiment:*
-One rat gets a staple diet (Can be a Suebee's mix or a variation, or lab blocks if you have them at home for your boys)
-One rat gets fresh fruits and veggies added daily
-BOTH rats get water, appropriate bedding (aspen, yesterday's news, or better yet, fleece sheets from the fabric store

*Your control*: the rat that doesn't get fruits and veggies.
*Your hypothesis:* Rats fed fresh fruits and vegetables in addition to their base diet grow larger and develop healthier (word this to be kid friendly). 
*Your purpose:* To show kids the importance of a balanced, healthy diet, as well as encouraging proper pet care, that animals (no matter the size) are not disposable. Even taking the rat to the vet to get antibiotics instead of giving it a sock would be teaching children how important it is to go to the doctor when you're sick, and that the doctor makes you better, instead of trying to be scary (this hopefully never happens)

If you can explain this to the parents, and get as much approval from them as possible, explaining the dangers of the experiment, and that it isn't teaching children the right message, coupled with the benefits of the modified experiment, the school board can't do anything about it. Parent's ultimately decide their childrens' educations, if you can get them to get involved in them first. Pass out printed sheets with all the information, and ask parents to get back to you in a week (or whenever before the experiment so that you can go get the supplies). Talk to the parents, not the other teachers.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

madcatters last response mirrors my feelings exactly. her experiment would be a proper and much better experience for the rats adn the children. the experiment with the milk is not only not teaching the children anything positive, it is also wasting time and money that the school system is in great lack of. 

as for the sugar water rat being less friendly then the milk rat, that's bull. both are going to have belly aches, neither are going to grow properly, neither would be healthy if the experiment were to continue and without proper interaction and socializing neither would be friendly. the milk vs sugar water would make no difference on their "friendliness". the most difference i could see would be that the sugar water rat would be more hyper and the milk rat would be more sedate. the sugar rat would be hyper because of the sugar of course and then crash, like any kid with too many pixie sticks in their system. while the milk rat would be feeling sick from the milk. however, given that neither rat is actually getting FOOD but only milk or sugar water, they may actually see the effects of starvation. so both rats would start to sleep more and their coats would get rough, their immune systems would lower and both could easily get sick. the milk rat would be a little better of as there are SOME nutrition in milk, but only if she's not too sick from the lactose. this is probably where they see the difference and how they have gotten their results actually in the past. both rats are sick, both rats are not as social as they should be, but one would be closer to death then the other and so one would be a bit more active and "friendly". 

they have done this experiment for 10 years, in 10 years they have not even thought about what is actually going on with these rats.... my god, do your teaching units have no screening process? i'm not yelling at anyone, i'm just stunned that that simple logic was not seen and corrected before. the only way i can see that happening is that, as madcatter said, this is only milk propaganda. 

i think madcatter also has a good point about taking this to the parents. if my son's teacher sent the "experiment" outline to me i would be appalled and demand the school to STOP IMMEDIATELY. i would drag it through every parent, daycare, grandparent and system that i could to get it to be changed. i would even take it to the radio and paper, show it to vets and animal welfare groups. i work hard to teach my son the value of life and that you must respect all forms of it. i work hard on teaching him empathy for others and how to properly care for others. i also work hard on trying to teach him the importance of variety in one's diet. the "experiment", as far as i can see, undermines everything that i am trying to teach my son about the value of life, the respect for all living things and proper nutrition. i'm sure many other parents would feel the same as i do. on the other hand, if an experiment as madcatter had outlined was presented to me, i would be much more agreeable. i think i would want to talk with the school about it to be clear on all the points, such as what happens to the rats afterwards and how would they be cared for during the experiment, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense and has a possibility of actually teaching my child something positive then the other dairy propaganda.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Oops, I take back what I said I said about the time frame... It IS four weeks with the rats, not two like I'd hoped.



> however, given that neither rat is actually getting FOOD but only milk or sugar water, they may actually see the effects of starvation.


Well, they do get food... Week 1 they get uncooked oatmeal and milk/sugar water, week 2 you add two fruits and two vegetables + milk/sugar water, week 3 you ad a meat or meat substitute (carnivorous rats?!) + milk/sugar water, and week four you keep the food the same but switch which rat gets milk/sugar water. Mmm, tasty, right?



> Your control: the rat that doesn't get fruits and veggies.
> Your hypothesis: Rats fed fresh fruits and vegetables in addition to their base diet grow larger and develop healthier (word this to be kid friendly).
> Your purpose: To show kids the importance of a balanced, healthy diet, as well as encouraging proper pet care, that animals (no matter the size) are not disposable. Even taking the rat to the vet to get antibiotics instead of giving it a sock would be teaching children how important it is to go to the doctor when you're sick, and that the doctor makes you better, instead of trying to be scary (this hopefully never happens)


MadCatter, I LOVE this idea. This way, I'd be able to take what I'm given but turn it into a much more sensible project. I'm going to run this by the other teachers and see if perhaps I can get them to do the same.

I feel so guilty about this, because had I known I wouldn't have been a part of this. When I first heard about this, I actually thought it might be an okay idea... I figured it was similar to what MadCatter suggested, something along the lines of giving one rat regular lab blocks, and the other a "super food" of sorts. Sigh...

Oh, and still no reply from the NDC.


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

An email I put together for anyone who is interested:

http://www.basicrat.com/greatgrowalong.html

Please please please message me if you notice any errors, or have any suggestions, as I've just sort of quickly tossed this together.


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## keysong (Jan 10, 2009)

Awesome email. I'll send it 

The only mistake I noticed was the wrong from of "effect".



> To my understanding, the purpose of the experiment is to compare the affects of drinking either milk or sugar water (soda pop) and its influence on growth and development.


Should be:



> To my understanding, the purpose of the experiment is to compare the *effects* of drinking either milk or sugar water (soda pop) and its influence on growth and development.


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

keysong said:


> Awesome email. I'll send it
> 
> The only mistake I noticed was the wrong from of "effect".
> 
> ...


I struggle with affect and effect - thanks for pointing this out


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Fabulous letter, MadCatter!


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## keysong (Jan 10, 2009)

No problemo 

Glad I could help in some little way. This experiment is baaad.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

These types of thingd should be banned. People dont understand how intelligent and sensitive rtas really are. When people think rats they think sewer rats adn tend to not care as much, they dont realize how wonderful they really are. Hopefully these poor rats wont be put through to much.


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## pwrliftinratties (Aug 24, 2008)

Unfortunately, laboratory rats, pet store rats, and wild rats all have different "rights". Laboratory rats are protected under the law, but a wild rat that gets into a laboratory is not. A pet store rat is protected under the law insofar as cruelty to animals, but that doesn't bar being fed to a snake. A wild rat has no protection under the law. Your study looks ethical to me...no undue harm to the animal, there is a benefit to society, and you're meeting the minimum requirements for sustaining life. Take it from someone who has/is doing studies (with people)--you REALLY jump through hoops to get an experiment accepted. 

I am not here to say ratties aren't wonderful, I am just letting you know that you probably won't hear anything positive about this. We either test on animals or people, and we are bipedal with opposable thumbs, know what I mean?


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

pwrliftinratties said:


> Unfortunately, laboratory rats, pet store rats, and wild rats all have different "rights". Laboratory rats are protected under the law, but a wild rat that gets into a laboratory is not. A pet store rat is protected under the law insofar as cruelty to animals, but that doesn't bar being fed to a snake. A wild rat has no protection under the law. Your study looks ethical to me...no undue harm to the animal, there is a benefit to society, and you're meeting the minimum requirements for sustaining life. Take it from someone who has/is doing studies (with people)--you REALLY jump through hoops to get an experiment accepted.
> 
> I am not here to say ratties aren't wonderful, I am just letting you know that you probably won't hear anything positive about this. We either test on animals or people, and we are bipedal with opposable thumbs, know what I mean?


I highly doubt anybody had to jump through hoops to get this experiment accepted. Sure, biologists, psychologists, anthropologists, whatever, DO need to jump through hoops because they are asking for money from the government. 

This is NOT an official experiment - it is an invalid experiment (see again - no control group, obvious lack of research, feeding MILK to rats, sponsored by the DAIRY council - who PROVIDES the rats for $10). The schools doing this experiment don't have to ask anybody - they buy the rats, and *pretend to teach*.

*Again, this experiment at the most primitive level violates the scientific method.* Not even talking about ethics, it is flawed. Easy as that. 

Animal testing is a necessary evil, BUT I only support animal testing if it's purpose is legitimate. Makeup is _not excusable_. Researching HIV/AIDS, TB or Leukemia _is_. Trying to prove to school children that milk is better to drink than coke is *BS* - If they were actually asking the government for money to fund this as an actual experiment, there would be no chance in **** that they'd get the money.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Im just so angry with this I cant even explain I want to do soemthing if there is anything I can do someone let me know!!!!!!


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## pwrliftinratties (Aug 24, 2008)

Oh I agree with you that it's a BS study--but do realize that most studies are funded by a 'cause', whether it's people saying corn syrup is bad or good, or aspartame is bad or good, or milk is bad or good. Studies are easy to fudge and often manipulated. This isn't a special case. Few studies get actual federal funding...funding comes from smaller organizations in the form of grants.

I have to jump through hoops for undergraduate, unfunded research. Very high, flaming hoops.  It's not about being funded. The NIH genuinely wants ethical research. But classroom studies don't have to abide by the same rules, so it may be a mistake that your school system has made. 

Again, I agree that the situation sucks. But I'm just preparing you for the possibility that this experiment, although poorly designed, may still meet ethical criteria and get the OK to be carried out.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

However they are supposed to be teaching and its not. Its treating animals badle and teaching false STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS information. It should not be allowed!!!!!!!!!!


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

I, too, fully understand the necessity of animal research... I think I mentioned this, but I've grown up around animal research. My dad is a toxicologist and he has spent his life supervising drug research. However, we're talking legitimate causes with this--medicines to help people with cancer, HIV, MS, diabetes, etc.



> But I'm just preparing you for the possibility that this experiment, although poorly designed, may still meet ethical criteria and get the OK to be carried out.


Okay, I suppose in the eyes of the law it may be "technically" ethical, but I guess I'm speaking more the general principles of the thing. Regardless of whether it meets ethical criteria or not, it's still morally unacceptable in my eyes, and I don't think it's sending the proper message to the kids. Plain and simple, I'd rather not teach it, and I'm grateful for everyone's suggestions on what I can do to tweak the experiment to keep the rats as comfortable as possible. Thanks, guys!

Oh, and by the way... Still no reply from the NDH.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't think you should be expecting one. If this has been going on for 10 years ... I doubt they'll care to think about a few extra.

I think the best thing you can do for you rats is tweak what they are being given while no one is supervising them. Unless you take it home to the parents, or make the teaching element of it one that actually involves the children in research of PROPER care (and diet - human and rat), then you discuss with the children how to adapt the study to make it truly beneficial for the rats. That is teaching morals, diet and ethics .. win win.

At the end of the day, this experiment is about teaching the kids diet (milk or no milk - milk can be a bloody treat if the Dairy Council want their propaganda) and scientific methodology. Preparing a hand-out that you know to be correct, setting up the "experiment" verbatum prior to starting it, then asking the kids what they think is wrong with it, how it can be improved, what they think should really be monitored ... could that be an option for you?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i honestly don't think you are going to get a reply from the NDH. but i really think that taking this to the parents would be the best way to go. outline the dairy experiement, point out what is wrong with it. and then give other options. involve the parents. schools are trying to do that more and more these days and i think most parents appreciate that. both madcatter's and ration's alternatives seem like a good thing to offer the parents for alternatives. talk to the other teachers and the principal too of course, taking this above their heads and directly to the parents may making the working environment problematic. i don't see why they would be opposed to a better learning experiment, but not including them in something that would affect the whole school could certainly ruffle feathers. you don't need to preach the gospel about rats, simply point out the flaws in teaching the unit as is from the child's benefit point of view. as is, it is a poor example of the scientific method and teaches negative attitudes towards animals and does not teach anything about proper balance of foods or needs for doctors. the method that madcatter does teach all the things that the dairy unit is lacking and ration's method would greatly involve the students in all aspects of the experiment, from the set up to the conclusions. i'm sure you would even be able to blend the methods together. 

good luck with this all, please keep us posted on how this all works out.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

> At the end of the day, this experiment is about teaching the kids diet (milk or no milk - milk can be a bloody treat if the Dairy Council want their propaganda) and scientific methodology. Preparing a hand-out that you know to be correct, setting up the "experiment" verbatum prior to starting it, then asking the kids what they think is wrong with it, how it can be improved, what they think should really be monitored ... could that be an option for you?


That sounds like a great idea.

I hesitate to go to the parents about this only because I do not want to seem like I am going against the full-time teacher's plans or doing this "behind her back." This is something the fourth grade classes have done for several years, and if she doesn't see a problem with it, I don't think she'd be too keen on me getting the parents riled up about it. If I were a full-time teacher, I wouldn't have much of a problem, but as a sub I feel extremely limited to how much controversy I can bring up. Like I said, I need to keep a good name for myself if I'm ever going to get a teaching job. Still, I think I can alter the experiment like you guys mentioned and make the best of a bad situation.

Oh, and while I haven't heard from Julie Hardin, I did receive a letter today informing me of when the rats are coming. The letter requests that the teacher reserves about 15 minutes for the deliver/NDH representative can speak to the children about the rats. I have no idea what that means, so I don't know what she's going to be saying about the rats. I'm very, VERY hesitant to let him or her speak to my kids. Lord knows what kind of BS he might say. Of course, I could use that time to ask the representative all these questions you guys have brought up... I'd be interested to hear what kind of answers they give on the spot like that.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

in that case certainly don't go to the parents without first talking to other teachers and principal and all first. you could probably get it so that the other teachers and staff would be wanting to change the experiment and have the parents be involved as well. it could be a great avenue for parents and children to come together over if approached properly. something to talk about and expand upon at the diner table, you know. even if its just something like the notice they send out when the kids start the sexual education unit (or at least they did that for my school). 

but it would be a very effective tool, going to the parents, if ever you had the ability and need to do so. i can understand not wanting to ruffle feathers though when you need to keep a good working image of yourself to be hired by. i don't know exactly how subs are chosen but from what little i do know, its a hard job to be in.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

I finally received a reply to my email, although not from Julie Hardin. This is from the woman who will be delivering the rats to my classroom. Here's what she said:

_I would also like to address your other concerns regarding the rats.
Because the controlled diet is so short term, there have been no
reported long-lasting ill effects from this program. Similarly, because
the treatment rat receives other non-sugared foods along with the
sugar-water, there have not been any negative reports regarding problems
with any of the rats' teeth. Many times we hear stories from teachers
who have conducted this program for several years of how well the rats
have done after the program ended and the rats were adopted by caring,
responsible students. Regarding the separation of the rats, depending
on the classroom, the rats usually receive a lot of socialization and
stimulation from the students who handle them._

Well, that's something atleast. Not sure if I feel very comforted by that at all, though.

Also, I just realized that I won't be with the class for the duration of the project!! It turns out that the teacher I'm subbing for will be returning during the last week of the project, so I won't even get to finish it out!! I'm SO worried about what could happen without me there to "stick up" for the rats. All I can think to do is make sure I have EVERYTHING planned out and ready to go for the end of the study so that the teacher doesn't have to think about much. Maybe that way she'll do things the way I'm doing them, and not the way the stupid manual says to.

I'm also scared to think about how she'll handle adopting them out. I will make an information packet about proper pet rat care (anyone know of a good link with the info all ready?) and an mini "adoption contract" informing the parents of the responsibilities involved. Typically, the rats are given away to the lucky student whose name is drawn out of a hat (buh!), but I had planned to send the contract out to the interested students, then rig the drawing to the student I feel would provide the best home. Maybe if I have it all ready to go, the teacher can do that.

Still, I'm so worried!!


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## MadCatter (Aug 12, 2008)

The response still didn't explain how they could possibly teach the children anything useful. Gah. This is so upsetting.

I specifically put my website together to hand out to customers at work (Petco), has really basic rat care stuff, with links to forums and other helpful websites with more in depth info. It is aimed at people who are completely knew to rats (such as someone who just took a rat home for the first time from a class experiment), so feel free to use it: http://www.basicrat.com. 

Stress the importance of them going home together, please. I have a study I can send you over email explaining that rats separated too early from a social group can start to show signs of schizophrenia - NO amount of human interaction can replace the company of another rat (this is also explained in greater detail on my page). 

If at all possible, send home all this information to the parents BEFORE the experiment ends, so that you know that you get all this info to parents before the main teacher comes back, stressing the "Quantity/How many" page.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Your website will be a huge help, MadCatter! Thanks so much for letting me know about it. I'll be sure to cite you.  I'll send the info home plenty early, and let the teacher know which student I think would provide the best home.

Side note: When I told them today that we'd be getting them, several of them were very grossed out (as I expected). After talking with them for about 15 minutes about my rats and my experiences with them, they were all totally intrigued with them! They were floored that my rats knew their names and would come when I called them, and were surprised when I told them how cuddly my boys were. By the end of our little Q&A session, there were no longer any grossed out students. In fact, the main thing they seemed to be interested in was who would get to take them home on the weekends!  Any time I can convince someone that rats are way more fun than most "pocket pets", I feel like it's a mission accomplished, lol. I'm seeing some perfect opportunities to teach about proper, responsible pet ownership here, and I'm pumped about that.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't feel too comforted by the email at all, but I am so glad you are trying to do something!

Do you have a chance to speak to the teacher who you are subbing for to explain the situation, or at least how you are improving the experiment for the benefit of the kids and their education? Good plan about getting those adoption forms out to the kids who are interested in the first week or so of the experiment. Hopefully it'll make her less likely to turn around and say no to the kids who have already applied.

Common sense says you should treat animals to the best of your ability, and if you're setting her up for some good ethical teaching, I very much hope she'll see opportunity in that.

Good luck! Keep us updated and intro us to the already-famous duo when they arrive


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

UPDATE ON CONTACT INFO:

Apparently, Julie Hardin no longer works at the NDC. Oops.  I didn't realize the reply I received wasn't from Julie--it was from a woman named Mary Nicholson. I'm going to guess that MadCatter's email has been sent to her several times, as she seemed intent on making sure her information wasn't on the NDC website. Thanks to everyone who's voiced their concern! So, to update everyone...

According to this website: http://www.indianadairycouncil.org/04_Contact_Us/Contact_Us.html, there are several different people to contact:

*Jo Bottorff, The Great Grow Along Coordinator Northwest Indiana
bottorffsbdairy @ sbcglobal . net

DeDe Hausmann, The Great Grow Along Coordinator for Northeast Indiana
hausmannsbdairy @ sbcglobal . net

Mary Nicholson, The Great Grow Along coordinator central/east central Indiana
Nicholson @ mpsiinc . com*

So I guess we need to be sending out complaints to these people! Mary Nicholson will be the person delivering the rats, I'm interested to talk to her in person! Let's keep on them till we get something done!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Have the rats arrived yet? If so, how is it going?


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

The rats came today, and guys... I don't know if I can do this. They're only three weeks old. 

Three.
Weeks.
Old. 

I've never seen rats so small in my life. So small, in fact, that the cages I have don't work for them because they could squeeze between the bars. It breaks my heart to think that not only are the away from mom way earlier than they should be, but they don't even get each other for company. I brought them home with me tonight, and they're sharing a cage. I think they'll probably be doing this every night, whether it botches the "experiment" or not.

Maybe a small piece of good news: Two of the other teachers are also a little concerned about how little they are. They didn't realize how small they'd be either. The teachers who have done this before knew what to expect, but those of us who are new to the Great Grow Along... We knew they'd be young, but not THAT young.

I'll keep you guys updated. By the way, the students named them Ruby and Oreo.


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## HappyMooCow (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont know much and I can't add much I just wanted to give you kudos for doing everything you can to protect the little ones.. I have been following this thread and will continue to do so... 

I hope you guys get a respnse soon!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Do what you can, at that age to grow healthy they are going to need supplementing anyway .. if you can sneak in a little protein or there are even some kitten milks that can be used to supplement baby rats.

I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone cannot construde this as cruelty - simple cruelty. To put 3 week old babies, in the prime of their growth, and deny them vital nutrients which could have a devistating effect on the rest of their lives

I'm gunning for Ruby and Oreo, I hope the other teachers join you on the dark side. All I can suggest is keep implanting the idea in their heads that everything about this experiment is *wrong*

Good luck!


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

If you are keeping them with you at night you can hopefully then give them the extra nutrients they need. And care for them properly. Maybe when the kids are out for recess or away at gym or art or something give them a few peices of produce and fresh water. Then at least the bad stuff they are being is limited adn you can add in some extra good stuff for them. My heart goes out to you adn the rats.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Ration1802 said:


> Do what you can, at that age to grow healthy they are going to need supplementing anyway .. if you can sneak in a little protein or there are even some kitten milks that can be used to supplement baby rats.


I had planned on mixing rat blocks in with their oatmeal, but I've also never had to feed babies this young. If you think they need more protein than what the rat blocks supply, what about some hedgehog food? My hedgehog just passed away not long ago and I have all her extra Spike's Delight (http://hedgehogsbyvickie.com/spikesdelite.htm) in the freezer. Spike's Delight is the best of the best in hedgehog food (it's like the Harlan-Teklad or Oxbow of the hedgehog world), and it's got double the protein of most rat foods at 32% crude protein (crude fat 12%, fiber 6%). Should I mix some of it in with their oatmeal instead?

Ruby and Oreo have come home with me the past two nights and have spent most of the evening exploring my couch or sleeping curled up inside my sleeve.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

I've never had to feed babies that young either but pretty much any addition to their sad oatmeal and milk or oatmeal and sugar water diet is going to be an improvement so mixing in a bit of Spikes Delight certainly can't hurt. You can also offer them the lab blocks along with egg, avocado, baby food, chicken etc.

Meanwhile I'm really hoping it was just a really horrible mistake that the rats delivered to you were so very young. To think they have been using such young rats for this ridiculous pseudo experiment over the years makes me feel quite sick.

Good luck with it all and please keep us posted with how the girls are doing.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Im new to the whole "what action can we take" idea so Im going to throw this out there and if its a bad idea oh well. Obviously a lot opf people on this forum (probally all of us) are exteemly bothered by this study which as we all know is bad anyway not just for the health of the rats but the education of the students as its false information. What if we all write our own letters to the the corporation or whoever to express not only the concern of the animals and kids education but aslo the ethical responsibilities they should have and. Maybe even send in all the posts on this topic as well as other sources so they can see for themselves how ridiculous this is? Sadly I know it may not do much but I feel very strongly about this and want to do something.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, we're beginning week two with the rats. They're growing so fast! Here's what I've been doing:

FOOD - The rats are getting milk and sugar water, but not "full strength". Ruby is getting skim milk instead of the recommended whole milk, and Oreo is getting very diluted sugar water. They are both getting oatmeal, but I have been supplementing that with lab blocks and some super high-protein hedgehog food. 

CAGES - They were so much smaller than I anticipated that the cages I had were too big. They could easily squeeze through the bars! So I bought a whole bunch of aluminum window screen and covered on of the cages and put up a divider in the middle. This way, they share one cage and are literally right next to each other. They spend the majority of their time playing with each other through the mesh. 

SOCIALIZATION - I have been bringing them home with me every night, so they spend plenty of time out of their cage every evening. They spend most of their time exploring the living room or curled up inside my sleeve napping.  I haven't had the students playing with them much yet because they make me nervous. So far, only three of my students have gotten to hold them... They stay after school every day, so they got to come in one afternoon to play with them. Two of them did a fabulous job as I expected, but one of the girls kept grabbing and squeezing them too tight. Even after I *repeatedly* reminded her about the importance of holding them gently, she was too rough! After she made Ruby squeak, I was done. I think I'll wait for them to get a little bigger before I try that again. (Okay, I'm done venting!)

LESSONS - I've been going along with some of the lessons provided, but I've been "supplementing" every lesson with my own. We've discussed proper housing for the rats, their behavior/personality and why they're such great pets, why I've been augmenting the experiment some, etc. I've also been telling them stories every day about what Ruby and Oreo did the past night or what my boys have done. They really enjoy hearing about the funny antics of all the rats, and I think it's really helped the students see the rats more as intelligent, affectionate living creatures. They never tire of "Lenny and Lobo" (my boys) stories. Plus, I point out the differences between Ruby and Oreo (Oreo is calm and cuddly, Ruby is a SPAZ), and I think the kids have been intrigued about how dynamic rats' personalities can be!










Now, a question. Do you think they could play with my boys? I think they'd probably enjoy the extra socialization, but I've only ever had two boys at a time, so I don't know much about the ways of introducing other rats, especially so young.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh good for you. It sounds like you are doing a fabulous job and those dear little rats rats are so very lucky to have ended up in your class. Make a note though - if squeezes-too-much-rough girl applies to adopt the rats after the experiment feel free to "lose" her application form !

Meanwhile regarding socialising with your boys its a nice idea but I would not risk it. Females can become pregnant as young as 5 weeks and at that age they are simply not big or strong enough to cope so it's likely both they and/or their babies will die. Sniffing through cage bars is fine, but I'd steer clear of anything beyond that.

Now is the normal teacher still coming back to ruin things before the 'experiment' is over? Will you be able to sort out a home for the girls before she returns so she won't need to be involved?


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

zoe9 said:


> Oh good for you. It sounds like you are doing a fabulous job and those dear little rats rats are so very lucky to have ended up in your class. Make a note though - if squeezes-too-much-rough girl applies to adopt the rats after the experiment feel free to "lose" her application form !
> 
> Meanwhile regarding socialising with your boys its a nice idea but I would not risk it. Females can become pregnant as young as 5 weeks and at that age they are simply not big or strong enough to cope so it's likely both they and/or their babies will die. Sniffing through cage bars is fine, but I'd steer clear of anything beyond that.
> 
> Now is the normal teacher still coming back to ruin things before the 'experiment' is over? Will you be able to sort out a home for the girls before she returns so she won't need to be involved?


Luckily, squeezes-too-much girl hasn't applied to adopt them. There were only four students whose parents checked "yes" on adopting them and I'm pretty sure I know who I want the rats to go to out of those four. I think I will probably tell the four boys that I drew a name from a hat, but it will most definitely be rigged. 

And I guess I'll keep my boys away. I've never had females before, so I had no idea they could get pregnant so young! I guess Ruby and Oreo can just admire my handsome boys from afar. 

Next week will be my last week with the students before the other teacher comes back--she'll be back March 2.  I'm depressed about it on so many levels, because I've really gotten attached to these kids. As for the rats, I am planning everything out, leaving complete lesson plans for the teacher so that she can pick up where I left off. That way, I can write the lessons out the way I want them to be done and just scrap the lesson plan book that came with the rats.  She'll never know or care. Also, I told her I'd get the adoption stuff figured out and ready to go so that all she'll have to do is make sure the rats make it to the kid's car. And I'll be sure to let her know that if she gets confused she can always ask, and if the adoption plans fall through I'll take Ruby and Oreo myself. I'm making it as easy for her (and as good for the rats, ha!) as possible.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

They look absolutely adorable! I'm glad you're doing so much for them, they are some very lucky rats


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## prncssplm (Feb 26, 2009)

I have had several rats as pets in my life, one in particular that lived for about 7 years (what's their life expectancy again???) I have a comment regarding this Rat Experiment in Elementary Schools. I remember doing this experiment in I think 3rd grade. I remember what an impact it had on my view of nutrition and eating a healthy WELL ROUNDED diet. There are several misconceptions in the posts on here. The rats used (there are actually 4- 2 in each cage) the Cages are not hand made, they are quality small animal cages similar to the ones you would find at Petsmart. The cages are not placed in a darkened corner, they are out of drafts and get as much natural sunlight as the rest of the class. 
The diets are not just milk and soda. They have identical diets consisting of high quality rat food (again, something that could be purchased from Petsmart), plus they are offered fresh fruit and vegetables that is changed out each day. The rats are handled daily (they have to be weighed, and the children love to pet them and talk to them) and enjoy comforts such as the exercise ball, and a wheel in their cage. They are given fresh water that is changed out daily- The only difference is one cage has an additional milk option, and the other cage has a soda option. 
While this isn't exactly a "scientific experiment" it is elementary school. Kids still see the impact of eating healthy and making good food and drink choices. It was also a huge side-lesson in learning to be responsible, cleaning the cages daily, changing food and water, and handling the rats in a safe and respectful manner. Something that you aren't going to get if you go to petsmart and buy a animal from one of their cages. At the end of the 6 weeks, the rats get to be adopted by a family from the classroom (with parent permission of course). Oh, there is no correlation in aggressiveness between the two groups- they are handled equally and receive the same amount of attention from the students. At the end of our experiment, I adopted the smaller rats, the ones who had the 7-up option. It was one of them that lived for some 7 years.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I think we've established that there is some individual differences in each experement depending upon the teacher heading the experiment.

You may have simply had a good teacher who cared about the rats. Since this thread was made I have heard from others who have also had part in this experiment and it is not at all so 'great'.


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

prncssplm said:


> There are several misconceptions in the posts on here. The rats used (there are actually 4- 2 in each cage) the Cages are not hand made, they are quality small animal cages similar to the ones you would find at Petsmart. The cages are not placed in a darkened corner, they are out of drafts and get as much natural sunlight as the rest of the class.


There are no misconceptions on this particular experiment, provided by the National Dairy Council. This is an actual experiment have had to teach and am still teaching. It sounds like you were more fortunate and your experiment was sponsored/provided by a more credible group. However, we have not been exaggerating on the conditions the rats are kept in. I can even scan the pages of the teacher's manual to show you, but it does indeed instruct you on making incredibly small, unreasonable cages. We each received two rats, one per cage. The manual also tells us to put the cage in a darkened corner, or cover it with a towel. Nowhere in the manual did it mention rats being kept in groups of any kind.



> The diets are not just milk and soda. They have identical diets consisting of high quality rat food (again, something that could be purchased from Petsmart), plus they are offered fresh fruit and vegetables that is changed out each day. The rats are handled daily (they have to be weighed, and the children love to pet them and talk to them) and enjoy comforts such as the exercise ball, and a wheel in their cage. They are given fresh water that is changed out daily- The only difference is one cage has an additional milk option, and the other cage has a soda option.


In our program, the manual instructs us to feed whole milk and highly-concentrated sugar water. I kid you not, there is no place in the manual that ever mentions rat food. We are instructed to feed ONLY oatmeal, sugar water, and milk during week one. The second week, we feed only oatmeal, veggies, and milk/sugar water. Week three, oatmeal, veggies, meat (baby food), and milk/sugar water. Week four keeps the same foods but switches the milk and sugar water. During NO part of the experiment are they ever offered water. These foods--oatmeal, veggies, and meat baby food--are the only foods ever mentioned in the teacher's manual. A teacher knowing nothing about rats would most likely assume that oatmeal is a proper diet, or not even realize they make rat food.

Also, it does not mention daily handling in the manual. They do not suggest a wheel in their cage. They do not even mention nesting material or a shelter. They are to be weighed and measured once a week, but it doesn't suggest they be handled more often than that. Again, I am not exaggerating when I say that comforts like exercise balls, frequent attention, etc. are never mentioned in any of the materials we were given.



> While this isn't exactly a "scientific experiment" it is elementary school. Kids still see the impact of eating healthy and making good food and drink choices. It was also a huge side-lesson in learning to be responsible, cleaning the cages daily, changing food and water, and handling the rats in a safe and respectful manner. Something that you aren't going to get if you go to petsmart and buy a animal from one of their cages.


My concern is that it IS elementary school. I understand what you're saying, but I am not convinced that our "Great Grow Along" experiment is the best or only option to show kids the impact of eating healthy. While I have taught the kids as much as I can, our program does not mention it much. There isn't a single rat-related lesson or even responsible pet ownership mini-lesson of any kind. I'm quite sure the other teachers have not taught their students about caring for rats beyond the bare minimum.



> At the end of the 6 weeks, the rats get to be adopted by a family from the classroom (with parent permission of course). Oh, there is no correlation in aggressiveness between the two groups- they are handled equally and receive the same amount of attention from the students. At the end of our experiment, I adopted the smaller rats, the ones who had the 7-up option. It was one of them that lived for some 7 years.


As for the aggression, our teacher's manual does warn that the treatment rat might exhibit less-friendly or aggressive behavior. So even though we know there isn't any real correlation, the idea is planted in the minds of the unsuspecting participants before they even begin the experiment. As for what to do with the rats after the experiment, the manual mentions almost nothing. I will double check, but I'm pretty sure it says something along the lines of it being the "teacher's responsibility" to find them homes. I DO know that it does not say the rats should be adopted together.

The experiment you talk about sounds like what I _expected_ to be doing. I was shocked to read the manual. I don't say all this to butt heads or sound argumentative, only to show how incredibly WRONG this experiment is. This ridiculous excuse for a science experiment is actually true, and I've been struggling with how I can bend the rules as much as possible to help the rats.


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## AMJ087 (Aug 27, 2008)

Keep bending rthomas, its the best thing to do for those little guys!!!! I wish so much soon they nasty experiemnt will be over!


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## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Oh my. THis bothers me because while these two rats got really lucky, there are so many more that haven't 

I will definately be loking into this and writing, emailing, calling anyone and everyone I can to bring this to light. I don't have to worry about causing controversy, as I have no job. (lol) 

This "experiement" is utterly ridiculous. Rats don't eat the same things humans eat, they require different nutrition through different stages in their lives to grow healthfully. T

The only thing I can imagine anyone learning is that it's ok to treat animals in a substandard way to promote your own agenda.


I can't find anything online about this, does that mean they've ended it?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

How did the study go? ???


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## rthomas (Jan 22, 2009)

It went pretty well, all things considered. I had huge problems with the cage divider... I had taken one cage and put a screen/partition in the middle, but they kept getting through to the other side! So, the experiment was pretty much blown anyway because Ruby and Oreo kept sneaking into each other's sides of the cage.  There was a period where I came in every morning to find them both on the same side. 

The good thing about this is that I had a perfect excuse for why they weren't growing like the other teachers' rats were... I had been sneaking them so many extra things, as well as giving them water when I took them home, that they weren't going to be that different in size anyway. Oops, my bad.  When I left, Ruby was still slightly larger than Oreo, but they were pretty similar when you compared them to the other rats (the other classrooms' rats were like night and day--one was huge and one was pretty small). 

I've had trouble communicating with their teacher now that she's returned, so to be honest I'm not entirely sure what happened when they wrapped it all up. I do know that Ruby and Oreo went home with one of the students and I'm sure they are having a great time now. 

Thanks again for all your support. Has anyone heard back from PETA or any of the other groups they contacted???


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I haven't heard anything back from any of the emails I have sent - but I am not really surprised. After all, "they're just rats", right? :

Anyway, I'm glad these two enjoyed a good time with you - it's a shame the other teachers couldn't follow your example, but hey - I bet Oreo and Ruby thank you for it!


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## paralistalon (Mar 5, 2008)

Hmm. Keep in mind the whole point of the experiment is propaganda. You want to shock the kids into feeling guilty every time they pick up a soda. So it's best to make the comparison non-milk rat as sickly looking as possible. Screw the dilution. 

I'd personally rather show my class Supersize Me and have them read exerpts from Fast Food Nation about how large corporations get their hands into the schools to hook em young on unhealthy foods, but that's the reason I'm not allowed around elementary schools.


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