# Domesticating wild rats caught at adulthood



## Kucero

I'm a rat owner...sort of. I caught an Eastern woodrat in (appropriately) my woodshop. Evidence of her residency became apparent before I even knew she was there. Cords and wires were severed, and almost every one of them looked like it was cut with a sharp blade, not chewed. A couple of the severed plugs were nowhere to be found. I started losing halfway-finished projects. Pen turning is the latest facet of woodworking I'm trying to perfect, and the hardest part is trying to get the perfect shine. Sometimes, I'll work on polishing several pen barrels at a time before I assemble them, but production was halted when I started losing pen barrels. And drill bits. And one half of a yo-yo I was making from purpleheart. Then my broom started balding; half its bristles were gone. The only two people that set foot in my shop regularly are 14-year-old son, and my neighbor, Jamie. I was getting plenty heated, trying to figure out which one of them thought he was doing something hilarious.








I guess I should be flattered that my efforts have been met with approval from the most discerning aficionados of shiny loot.

Then I found the first pack rat stash while I was straightening up the shop. Everything was just piled in one corner, even the broom bristles and electrical cords. I also found several blue shop towels, a lot of used segments of sandpaper rolls I had used on the lathe and tossed to the floor, packing peanuts, a pack of Jamie's cigarettes that was still halfway full, my new torch lighter that was only three days old when I lost it, several crushed aluminum cans (I recycle), some unused wood pen blanks I had actually ordered online and paid quite a bit for (Gaboon ebony is a frightfully expensive wood!) and one of my Kobalt screwdrivers. Even after finding the mess, I still had no idea how in the world everything had wound up in the corner. A few nights later, my shop guest made her first appearance. I work nights because Louisiana heat is murder when it's married to Louisiana humidity, and I was sitting at the workbench when she appeared two feet away from where I was sitting, smelled me, and scampered off. I had no idea what she was. I had never seen a rat before. I don't recall seeing one even in a pet store. She didn't look like any of the rats I had seen in movies or on TV, so I resumed my work, and thought about rodents.

A couple of nights after she made her debut, I saw her again around midnight, and texted Jamie. He had just gone to bed but decided that mystery rodents were more interesting...and he never has anything important to do, anyway. He brought a squirrel trap with him that looks like it was made before the wheel was invented. He ignored my suggestions to oil it, baited it with peanut butter, and set it a couple of feet from where I found the stash. Less than five minutes later, the rat came out, crawled into the trap without hesitation, and gleefully started grazing on peanut butter, perched right on top of the trip mechanism. I tapped Jamie, who stood up saw what was happening. It took about four seconds for him to realize what was happening, but once the light clicked on, he got mad and hollered something about "Yer not gettin' a free meal ya *******!" as he flailed his arms. The rat was out of sight before he got the third word out. Eventually, I came up with the idea to tie fishing line to the hook that restrains the spring-loaded door, and the next time she took the bait, I gave the line a sharp tug, and she was trapped.

I took this picture a few minutes later.








Poor thing was scared, and I was mystified. She looks like an overgrown mouse, not the beady-eyed things that come to mind whenever I think of rats. I worried that the trap's wires might hurt her feet, so I made a crappy box from 1/2" sheathing and hot glue, with a Plexiglass front and a lid that was too small to sit squarely on top. I skewed it a bit so it wouldn't fall in, and somehow managed to get the rat into the box.

Not long after dawn, Jamie came back into the shop with two baby rats he found outside. Instead of leaving them alone, he thought it would be a brilliant idea to pick them up and bring them inside. Damage was done, so I added two baby rats to the box. They were only about a week old, and they obviously belonged to the rat I had captured. Mama rat didn't abandon her concern about her predicament and immediately focus all of her attention on them, but I could easily see the familiarity she had with the babies.

About half an hour later, I looked up from the lathe just in time to see mama rat push the roof aside with her nose. She had actually climbed right up the sheathing and moved the roof enough to escape, and she didn't waste any time. "Screw you two kids, I'm outta here!" Gone.

At that point, the adventure changed from entertainment to responsibility. I hadn't researched anything about rats, and I just assumed that human scent would make her abandon her babies. So I immediately began learning how to take care of newborn rats, and even though they must be tended every 2-4 hours at that age, around the clock, I did a **** fine job. I actually got attached to them. They squeaked, they squirmed, they REALLY enjoyed the feedings, but they didn't make it. Poor things thrived for five days...their eyes were almost ready to open...but something (probably my fault) gave them a respiratory infection, I didn't have a way to help them, and the vet couldn't do anything (because it's illegal to treat wild animals) and I just watched helplessly as they gasped for air they couldn't get. I couldn't even give them a quick death because I was fervently hoping and wishing they would recover. But they suffocated in the open air before dying in my hands. I was both frustrated and depressed.









When I started noticing things were missing again, I looked in that corner and saw that mama rat had started a new stash. I set the trap, baited it with peanut butter, and caught her again, but she escaped as I was trying to transfer her to a different box. I caught her a third time. Got her in the original sheathing/hot glue box, but the too-small roof fell in, and the surprised rat took the opportunity to escape before the surprised woodworker could make any attempts to prevent it. I caught her a fourth time, she escaped a fourth time. When I caught her for the fifth time with the same bait, (peanut butter = crack for rats), I made a pretty decent rat habitat with solid wood and Plexiglass. I made an "external" room that had a screen floor (fireplace screen, not screen-door screen) for those private moments in every rodent's life (it was the bathroom, haha). The "bathroom" had a hinged ceiling so I could reach into the lower level of the cage to put food and bedding inside, and I put a heavy box of drill bits on top of that ceiling so mama rat wouldn't nose her way out again. The whole setup looked good for a hot glue job, but I was worried that there wasn't enough air flow because I used Plexiglass instead of wire (which I didn't have).

I didn't plan to keep her long, anyway, because it's almost impossible to tame a wild rat if it's caught in its adulthood, but oddly, she was showing a few domestic traits. She would approach the Plexiglass if I put my finger against it, she didn't shy away from my voice like she did throughout the first couple of captures, she was nibbling on the morsels I had put in with her, and then she was drinking water from a dropper I was holding for her through one of the many vents. I went to a hardware store to buy some hardware cloth to improve her air circulation, and stopped by the pet store for some rat treats. I brought the goodies into the shed, and...no rat. The entire bathroom had fallen off. Even if she wasn't in it when it fell, the sound of that box of drill bits hitting the floor probably scared her out of her mind.

I set the trap again, but I put it outside, in a covered area attached to the back of the shed. I caught her for the 6th time less than three minutes after I put the trap down, baited with more peanut butter. I was starting to think she was enjoying the dance. This time, I modified the box with the ill-fitting roof and made a decent habitat out of it. While she was chilling in that home (it was only about 12" x 12" x 12", I started working on a "tower" whose frame was an old waterbed headboard someone threw away. I spent many hours working on it, but she got away in transit from box to tower. For a few days after that, she wouldn't go near anything that smelled like peanut butter. But on day 5, I caught her again after baiting a trap with chocolate pie crust, and she got away again while I was transferring her, surprising me with her leaping prowess and climbing ability (she skittered straight up a wide sheathing board and was out of sight before I could even say, "You suck!"). Three more days passed before I caught her again...with peanut butter...and I successfully installed her in the tower. She completely bypassed all of the little steps and ladders I had put in, navigating by hardware cloth. While she was in the tower, I successfully fed her several kernels of sweet corn by hand, through the wires of the hardware cloth. I went inside the house, and when I came back out to the shop four hours later, she was gone again, having chewed through the sheathing I had used when I ran out of hardware cloth. I slathered an aluminum can with peanut butter and set the trap again, and caught her within the hour. She wasn't even panicking over being caught anymore. She's escaped nine times, but I've caught her ten times. I didn't even use a trap for #10: she hid inside a roll of roofing felt, so I put an aluminum can in each end to cut off another bid for freedom, picked the whole roll up, and held it vertically over the opening in the third cage I made for her until she crawled down into it.

That was two or three weeks ago. She can't get out of my latest cage, even after I added another level on top of it. So now, I have a trapped wild rodent. Killing her isn't an option for me. Dumping her in the woods far away from my house is almost a guaranteed death sentence. But I can't let her continue her mischief in my shop, so now I'm taking care of a wild animal. I had trouble giving her water, because she couldn't see either the dropper or the pipette I used, but I found that adding some fruit juice helped her find the tip by smell. I tried putting water in a clean juice cap, but she immediately spilled everything when she picked it up to "pack" it somewhere. After that, she just crapped in the water-filled lid and kept doing it every time I cleaned and refilled it. I spent two days teaching her how to use the water bottle, but she's a pro now, so I don't have to worry about dropper quenching.

I've made several modifications to the cages. I put an 11" mesh exercise wheel on the upper level, but she's not having any of that nonsense. She probably suspects another trap or similar horrible fate. She eats straight from my hand now, and she's very sweet and gentle about it. Corn is her favorite, but I know I can't give her too much of that. She licks my fingers clean and even puts her front paws on my hand so she can reach further back to search for other tidbits.








Too much corn makes a ratty fatty.

As completely comfortable as she has grown to being hand fed, she won't let me touch her. I'm disappointed by this; I love petting animals. I make cats and dogs melt in my lap. But the Force is strong in this poor little vermin, and her instincts run way too deep.

Most of the time, she seems content, even happy, but I'm not so deluded that I believe her #1 yearning is for anything other than freedom. So I've resigned myself to a rat's lifetime of obligation, and none of the love.

I named her Rita, after Rita Hayworth, who played indirect roles in The Shawshank Redemption via classic movies and wall posters. Shawshank was about prison, the rat in sort of a prison, so...Rita. That, and since rats can learn their names, I thought it would be an easy one for her to catch.

The fact that her name is an anagram of "I, Rat" is just a bonus.

She stars in my first YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QFW1QVWbIc

The next one will be better. I have plenty of footage; she's been a wellspring of weird rodent behavior.


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## webspinnr

Wow that's quite an amazing and humorous story! Something surprising I learned that I think's important for you to know though is peanut butter is actually quite dangerous for rats, as they can quite easily choke to death on it.


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## pip367622

I saw your video on the other thread, and brilliant it was too....what an amazing story, and patience of a saint for sure, Rita Skeeter Rat for short! (Harry Potter) 

Pip x


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## ratty213

Wow what an amazing story. It's incredible how she will let you hand feed her.


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## Mrs.Brisby

Interesting story. I've always loved woodrats. You should know it's illegal to keep wildlife though. She could also be harboring a host of different zoonotic diseases.


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## Kucero

Mrs.Brisby said:


> Interesting story. I've always loved woodrats. You should know it's illegal to keep wildlife though. She could also be harboring a host of different zoonotic diseases.


Maybe I'm being ignorantly optimistic, but I'm not worried about disease from the little pest. They're clean animals, she looks healthy, and has a wonderful disposition (i.e. doesn't act like she's sick or in pain). I'm aware of the laws against keeping wildlife, though, and I've chosen to be a rebel rather than kill her, drop her off so she can be eaten, or let her chew my shop to pieces and rob me blind.

But I guess that explains why woodrats aren't bred for domestication.


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## evander

She is beautiful!!! I love your story - you should be a journalist!!

I love your pens!!!! Do you have a website? Are you on eBay? I must have one!!!


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## Kucero

Thank you! I love making them! I don't think I'm supposed to ply my trade in these forums, but I'll be glad to share info via PMs (hope that's okay!)


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## inod3

Mrs.Brisby said:


> You should know it's illegal to keep wildlife though.


It sort of varies from area to area and what the "wildlife" is. I recall reading about a wild rat that was caught and the person who caught the rat called the local authorities to find out where to release it only to be told it was illegal to release it because the rat was an introduced species. I don't know what the law is in my area.


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## deedeeiam

Legality varies state by state. However, a wild animal deserves to remain wild. You should relocate the rat and release it immediately. If you really want a rat, go adopt one that actually needs a home. This one doesn't...and could very well have babies stashed somewhere that you already killed.


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## Mrs.Brisby

inod3 said:


> It sort of varies from area to area and what the "wildlife" is. I recall reading about a wild rat that was caught and the person who caught the rat called the local authorities to find out where to release it only to be told it was illegal to release it because the rat was an introduced species. I don't know what the law is in my area.


that would be true if she was an introduced species, but she is not. She is a wood rat, an older wood rat, and she very well could be harboring something like the hanta virus. Like someone said above me, she is wild and deserves to stay wild.


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## PawsandClaws

Can I get a pm on the pens too. :3


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## gotchea

I loved my little wild rat. I would seriously pay 20 grand just to have him back. But he was an infant when I found him. I wouldn't keep an adult wild raised rat. I was all about my rat making his own life choices. He is wild! He knows what is best for him. He wanted to go on a walk at night, which he had done before, and never came back. The neighbors think their dogs killed him. I'll never know. I loved him more than I ever thought possible. He was wild though, so I respected him enough to give him the choice to leave. He may have gotten himself killed. I loved him too much to cage him, that's a sad life for a wild rat or any wild animal. I know I hate it when I feel trapped. But this is all how I view things raising my little buddy. We had a great, but short life together. No one here knows Rita like you do.


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## bloomington bob

I would release him . Although there's no indication that wood rats carry hantavirus http://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/pdf/hps_brochure.pdf , it just doesn't seem right, as gotchea said, to keep and adult wild rat in captivity. There isn't a course of action that's risk free here since wood rats are very territorial, and he is at risk of being attacked. Maybe the best thing is to release him fairly close to where you are and hope he doesn't do further damage to your woodshop.


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## Mrs.Brisby

Oops, I got my diseases mixed up. Woodrats don't carry the Hantavirus but they do sometimes carry the Arenavirus. http://buginfo.com/article.cfm?id=3


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## deedeeiam

Also...that cage is dreadful. Plywood, small, cramped, wire bottom...


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## gotchea

deedeeiam said:


> Also...that cage is dreadful. Plywood, small, cramped, wire bottom...


 yes you are correct.... I actually was kind of impressed with the cage. I believe OP said he doesn't know anything about rats, so I thought it was really cool for someone to make that doesn't know much about rats. But that's my thoughts.  of course, people can always improve. But I thought it was kind of neat. Ya know?


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## evander

I feel some of your responses have been a bit harsh - yes the rat should be set free - but must you be down right rude to a new member who stated he had no idea about pet rats.

He obviously cares about the little lady - and torn on what to do with her - he doesn't want to harm her but his lively hood is also at stake.

Lighten up please.


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## ksaxton

gotchea said:


> yes you are correct.... I actually was kind of impressed with the cage. I believe OP said he doesn't know anything about rats, so I thought it was really cool for someone to make that doesn't know much about rats. But that's my thoughts.  of course, people can always improve. But I thought it was kind of neat. Ya know?


I thought so too, hey it may not be the best for rats but as far as just general craftsmanship it's way better than anything I could ever build I'm terrible with making things that don't fall apart


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## Kucero

deedeeiam said:


> Legality varies state by state. However, a wild animal deserves to remain wild. You should relocate the rat and release it immediately. If you really want a rat, go adopt one that actually needs a home. This one doesn't...and could very well have babies stashed somewhere that you already killed.


So you're saying you would have taken your captured rat and dumped her in unfamiliar territory "immediately", but you didn't mention your plan for the babies that could very well be stashed somewhere that you would've just made motherless.

Being a newcomer here, I'd like to tread softly, but there's really no gentle way to say that it's obvious that you simply jumped in on a discussion without reading anything of the original post, apart from the subject heading.


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## gotchea

evander said:


> I feel some of your responses have been a bit harsh - yes the rat should be set free - but must you be down right rude to a new member who stated he had no idea about pet rats.He obviously cares about the little lady - and torn on what to do with her - he doesn't want to harm her but his lively hood is also at stake.Lighten up please.


 I didn't read anyone's responses as rude :/ if I came off rude I am sorry op! That was not my intention at all. I don't think it was anyone's intention. It's crazy how everyone perceives things different. I'll try and work on my responses.


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## Kucero

deedeeiam said:


> Also...that cage is dreadful. Plywood, small, cramped, wire bottom...


Goodness, you truly are a ray of sunshine, aren't you? So now you've watched the video. If you had read the post, you'd have known I used a temporary cage. The wire floor was there before I read up on how harmful it can be. After educating myself, I worked on a new cage, then a third, and the habitat she has now has no wire flooring, melanine walls, and seven levels. It's a foot deep, a foot and a half wide, and three feet tall. Not sure what you have against plywood, but it's better than having wire on four sides.

She works hard in her efforts to arrange all the stuff pack rats like, but her cage still needs to be cleaned. I've added a couple of receptacles in which I fill with pack rat treasures after each cleaning so she can "find" them and decorate as she wishes.

I came here hoping to hear from people that have had experience with wild rats, not to listen to those without personal experience telling me what I should or shouldn't do. Maybe the little critter doesn't have her freedom, but at least she still has her life, and I'm doing my best to make it a comfortable one while I figure out what to do next.


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## evander

gotchea said:


> I didn't read anyone's responses as rude :/ if I came off rude I am sorry op! That was not my intention at all. I don't think it was anyone's intention. It's crazy how everyone perceives things different. I'll try and work on my responses.


gotchea - your response was not rude at all - I apologize if you felt like I was speaking to you for some reason. Most of know how much you loved your little rattie.

I suppose I was mostly speaking to deedeeiam who was quite rude and critical.


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## gotchea

Evander, oh okay! No need to say sorry at all! I've been told before I come off rude. So I guess I am insecure about it. Kucero, I hope you don't feel put off by our response. Only a few of us have had wild rats, and one member who responded, Mrs.Brisby, I believe works with wildlife. She even raised raccoons! Hopefully we can help you the best we can.


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## ksaxton

Just like when gotchea posted advice about Wilder awhile back, I remember lots of people got upset and were very critical. Someone else pointed out though her and Wilders situation was not common, this wasn't just your average story of a new owner with a domesticated rat, so we can't really treat it like it is. Different things have to be taken into consideration. I once took in wild mice, and I had no clue what I was doing, actually I released them back into the wild probably too soon and they're most likely dead. 

Kucero you might want to do some internet research on wild rats and see what their diet and behavior is like, since this is a domesticated pet rats forum we might not have the best knowledge of wild rat needs. Rita is super cute btw, those giant eyes are beautiful!


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## ksaxton

Or maybe what I just said made no sense, if so sorry it's hard sometimes to explain what you mean over text


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## rudecrudetattooedfatgirl

Good luck, maybe look for things rats don't like to deter her? I am pretty sure they hate the smell of spearmint.


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## bloomington bob

I have a friend named Reta who is not a fan of rats, but when I told her about Rita she wished her the best as we all do


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## Kucero

Thank you for the advice, K...believe me, I know more about wild rats than I ever thought I'd care to read.

Eastern woodrats are herbivores that enjoy the occasional insect. Rita's diet is a smorgasbord of fruits, vegetables, and treats. Carrots, potatoes, corn, green beans, dry oats, uncooked rice, apples, bananas, Goldfish crackers, grape jelly, strawberry preserves, peanuts still in the shell, and small pieces of Hershey's chocolate. The only vegetable she's turned down so far is green peas.

Behaviorally, these are solitary animals, but the still show the same signs of stress and contentment that fancy rats do. I've paid close attention to this rat, and I've made notes of behavioral changes. For example, she used to sleep with her eyes wide open.








Obviously, things have changed.

She has a particular spot she runs to when she wants to be fed, or when she anticipates being fed. She's not free, but she's not entirely unhappy, either, and I'm still learning whatever I can, so that I'll be better able to make long-term decisions for her, and better equipped to keep her loving life in the meantime.


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## gotchea

Hehe so cute! Well even if we can't help you, I hope you keep us updated! Like every move she makes I must see photos!


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## ksaxton

It's good you've done so much research. From the look of your pens and her current setup, it seems you are very skilled at building things. Maybe eventually you could build her a really nice habitat that mimics her natural environment as best you can. Good luck working with her, keep us updated on your progress


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## Mrs.Brisby

I certainly hope I didn't come off as rude. If I did then I truly am sorry. I'm usually on my not-so-smart phone so I have to keep my answers short and to the point. Gotchea is correct, I work to rehabilitate wildlife, mostly lagomorphs and rodents. As a wildlife rehabilitator I like to remind people that wild animals could potentially carry some pretty deadly things. If you're willing to deal with the possible consequences of contracting these diseases than there is nothing I can do about it. I commend you for not killing her and I understand why you wouldn't want to release her but, it is my opinion, that releasing her is the best thing to do. She isn't injured, malnourished, or unable to care for herself. Wild animals become very stressed when confined, no matter how large the cage is. it's unnatural and they don't like it. Wildlife rehabilitators release animals as soon as they possibly can because for some animals, especially the smaller ones, the stress of confinement will literally kill them. They eat, they drink, they seem fine but they aren't. I run into people like you all the time. they're good people, kind people, their hearts are in the right place! They just aren't experienced enough to take care of wildlife and often times they end up hurting the animal instead of helping it. Also, if you're **** bent on keeping her, aren't you afraid she'll chew through the plywood?


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## Kucero

I live near a sizable expanse of forest. The area is saturated with snakes, owls, hawks, skunks, and other menaces that would love to eat her. Without the predators, I have no doubt she would thrive if I released her somewhere else, but as densely populated as these woods are, I'm afraid she'd become a meal before being able to find shelter. I'm almost certain of it.

Her new cage and all its additions are made of melanine. She won't be chewing through that. I do add chewables here and there, though, mostly wood scraps


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## Rat Daddy

First of all, this is a story about a wild rat that invaded a human habitat. Which makes it fair game for killer traps and poison bait stations... Our new member gets points for not killing the little vermin.... It's not a matter of what he could have done better, but what he could have done worse and by the way, which he had every right to do, moral considerations aside.

Now what to do next... I catch mice in the house all of the time and I set them free far away in a nice park, next to an incinerator near and ice cream store and next to a river... It's not ideal, but food is abundant and there is shelter and no nearby human homes... it's the best I can do as my wife is both rat and mouse phobic, my daughter is 8 years old and is likely to get bit playing with the wild mice and my wife already puts up with two rats, bless her heart. It's not optimal, but it's better than killing them... 

Now, there may be human health issues involved, but there may not be. Those are risks the owner has to be aware of and assume. The fact is that most rats don't carry diseases and odds are in his favor. On the other hand if he does contract something terminal, his survivors are going to have an interesting story to tell their friends about how their relative single-handedly brought back the black plague... Not really likely to happen, but folks have the right to take their own chances; so lets lighten up a bit...

Here's where I'm going out on a limb... there is no proof that wild adult wood rats can't be tamed or befriended. In fact it would make for a truly interesting experiment and a wild stretch of immersion theory... In theory if the OP was crazy enough to lock himself into an immersion area and work with the rat, he might be able to bond with it and the result might be something that can co-habitate with him. Obviously, there are certain risks of getting bitten involved and it overall strikes me as sort of nuts, but if Kucero was willing to try and give this rat a decent life, which includes out of cage activity, a human relationship and a roomier cage, I'd be willing to play along and consult on the project. (I might not mind a reasonable discount on one of those nifty pens either...) But really I'd be interested in the project just for the information we all might gain from it.

I agree with everyone that this isn't a normal situation and I can find about a thousand reasons this shouldn't be tried, but I grew up in the mountains and there were some fairly unique types that preferred to live life just a little bit apart from the norm... I've seen pet deer, raccoon, squirrels and an old lady that let rattle snakes nest in her basement. So a wood rat isn't too far of a stretch. 

But, I am serious about socializing the wood rat. I don't think life in a cage would be fair to the animal. There have been several wild rats and my own part wild rat that enjoyed a full and happy life with a human family, but, to be fair, none were wood rats and all of them were socialized as pups. 

Now, to be entirely fair, lots of years ago, there was a group of city kids, driving their dad's new Cadillac that asked me if I knew the best place to find mushrooms... I told them about a very secluded place where they were likely to find any mushroom they ever wanted way back in the woods and they drove off with their field guide to poisonous and hallucinogenic mushrooms. Not seeing much of an up side to this adventure I didn't go along, but gave them excellent directions. A friend of mine who drove a tow truck, stopped by several hours later; he told me he had just towed a new Cadillac out of the creek with a bunch of teens speaking in tongues wandering around it... Now I suppose someone else might not have told them about the misty little gorge where all kinds of wondrous mushrooms grew, but then I wouldn't have this nifty story to tell 30 years later. So just because I think it's possible to socialize an adult wild wood rat, and I'll give advise from a safe distance, doesn't necessarily mean that things are going to end well... Although it would be very cool if they do.


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## lovemyfurries

Kucero, I think what you've done is amazing!! I read the whole post, watched the video and read all the comments. While I have NO idea on taming wild animals or keeping them in a cage etc etc...I do feel as well that some of the comments you received were pretty **** harsh!! Wilder's mommy, not you. We know how you feel.

Rita, certainly doesn't look like a caged wild animal pacing up and down trying to get out. She looked really content doing her thing and the fact that she is eating off your hand is also a really good thing as she could have taken huge chunks out of your hand had she wanted to. I think your cage is awesome too and the way she curled up to go sleep was so cute. Typically not on the nice bedding! What you have done in saving and giving this rat a home and to save your workshop is really so awesome. Thank you for not putting poison down to kill the 'vermin' as so many others would have done!

Please please keep posting pics and videos I would love to know how Rita is getting on.


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## PawsandClaws

Clearly some people have a lot of bias towards keeping wild animals and their passion on the subject shows. I do not know what I would do in this situation but I feel that regardless of what your opinion on the matter is, our goal as a community should be to educate and steer in the right direction. If OP has decided he wishes to keep the wood rat (and I feel his reasons for doing so are somewhat legitimate), lets band together and try to figure out the best captive environment for this little critter - at least for the time being. I cannot feel angry at this situation because it is clear that Kucero seems to mean well and is trying to take on board advice on the cage etc. 

My own personal experience in keeping wildlife is fairly small. I rescued a baby pigeon from some ravens who were brutally pecking it to death in the middle of the street. I was a child then and still received criticism from the people around me who thought that it was not my place to interfere with nature. Arguably they have a point but I also think it isn't ever that simple. We live among these creatures and whether we like it or not it is difficult not to invest ourselves in correcting something that looks like it needs interfering. I nursed the pigeon back to health for quite a long time and it eventually grew up into a wonderful adult. Whilst we rehabilitated him, he had full flight off our house and we did grow quite attached to him however when we felt it was time and his recovery was complete, we gave him the chance to leave us. Needless to say he chose to fly away and we never saw him again. I guess my point is that I myself believe a wild animal should stay wild but that does not mean keeping the wood rat comfortable for the time being whilst you figure out a humane release is a bad thing. If a release is not an option then I think providing it with the best captive environment you can should be a priority and it sounds like you are willing to learn and implement the kind of life it needs. 

Anyway, I wish you and the rat the very best of luck. I hope you figure out the right option for the both of you.


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## nanashi7

I'm inclined to say release her, but I think a good route to go would be to "rat proof" your workshop and maybe she can be tamed and be an out of cage wild rat - you can feed her and teach her destroying stuff isn't okay and she'll be your buddy but would still be allowed freedom and her natural habitat. There's a guy who rehabbed a raccoon who does this, the little bugger breaks into his house for food and love but spends the rest of it's time wandering freely like a true wild animal.


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## bloomington bob

I've been thinking quite a lot about this, and if you do decide not to release her, hopefully implementing the suggestions by rat daddy and nanashi will give her the freedom she needs.


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## deedeeiam

Kucero said:


> I came here hoping to hear from people that have had experience with wild rats, not to listen to those without personal experience telling me what I should or shouldn't do. Maybe the little critter doesn't have her freedom, but at least she still has her life, and I'm doing my best to make it a comfortable one while I figure out what to do next.


I ran a wild animal rehab for 15 years...does that count? I still work with DNR and wild life officials in my state on a regular basis and am an avid outdoors-man. 

Releasing her is the humane, ethical thing to do. After you caught her initially, you should have just shored up your workshop to limit her access and put her back out in nature. You took a _thriving_, _healthy _animal out of the local ecosystem (and quite possibly killed an entire litter). There is a reason removing wild animals is illegal in most states. 

I don't necessarily care if I come off as rude, and I'm slightly mortified anyone would support the removal of a healthy animal from the wild. This isn't a situation were the animal was in danger or it was abandoned. This is an adult now keeping a wild animal in a little cage, just like little kids try to do with bugs. That's not something to support, or even offer advice on, short of screaming RELEASE IT.


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## evander

Sorry dee but I think your advice would be better listened to if you did not come off so rudely - I can understand someone being passionate about the well being of an animal - but you NEED to also be aware that you are speaking to a person who truly means no harm.

There is NO reason to be rude!!


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## gotchea

deedeeiam said:


> I ran a wild animal rehab for 15 years...does that count? I still work with DNR and wild life officials in my state on a regular basis and am an avid outdoors-man. Releasing her is the humane, ethical thing to do. After you caught her initially, you should have just shored up your workshop to limit her access and put her back out in nature. You took a _thriving_, _healthy _animal out of the local ecosystem (and quite possibly killed an entire litter). There is a reason removing wild animals is illegal in most states. I don't necessarily care if I come off as rude, and I'm slightly mortified anyone would support the removal of a healthy animal from the wild. This isn't a situation were the animal was in danger or it was abandoned. This is an adult now keeping a wild animal in a little cage, just like little kids try to do with bugs. That's not something to support, or even offer advice on, short of screaming RELEASE IT.


You make a really good point, but being on the "owning a wild rat" side. I didn't take the advice of people who "didn't care if they came off rude or not." I actually just fought with them. It wasn't very "helpful."This is a pet forum so pets come first, I get that. But OP seems to have his mind made up, just like I did. Nothing else really to be said about the topic. So at this point, we can either help him make the rats first better, or ignore the topic. Yelling at him to release the rat won't do much good. I am sorry though. I can understand your point and how you feel about this topic.


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## Mrs.Brisby

Gotchea, your situation was completely different. Wilder was in need of assistance when you found him. The woodrat however, was clearly doing great in her environment. It also didn't matter that you kept wilder because he, being an invasive species, is not welcomed in our ecosystems and probably would have been killed by any wildlife rehabilitator you gave him to.


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## deedeeiam

gotchea said:


> You make a really good point, but being on the "owning a wild rat" side. I didn't take the advice of people who "didn't care if they came off rude or not." I actually just fought with them. It wasn't very "helpful."This is a pet forum so pets come first, I get that. But OP seems to have his mind made up, just like I did. Nothing else really to be said about the topic. So at this point, we can either help him make the rats first better, or ignore the topic. Yelling at him to release the rat won't do much good. I am sorry though. I can understand your point and how you feel about this topic.


You rescued an invasive species that was in need. That's a HUGE difference.


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## gotchea

Oh I know. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. Just that we can't change what op will do at this point anymore. Maybe op can take Rita to a wildlife center?


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## Mrs.Brisby

The wildlife center would just release her because she's healthy and there is nothing preventing her from being successful in her environment.


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## gotchea

Mrs.Brisby said:


> The wildlife center would just release her because she's healthy and there is nothing preventing her from being successful in her environment.


 hopefully in a safer area though. Op didn't want to release her because the area by his house is dangerous?


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## Mrs.Brisby

It's the wild. It is full of danger, especially for a small animal like the woodrat. But she actually most likely came from that area or a similar area. I doubt she grew up in his woodshop, it's not the only world she has ever known. She just found a nice place to have her babies.


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## Adeliek

From a kind of outsiders point of view this has all got WAY out of hand. This guy had a choice, the rat was persistently invading his workshop and causing trouble. So he either killed it, or caught it. I could never kill any animal big or small unless it was truly suffering. He caught this animal, and obviously became slightly attached...probably because it took so many attempts! So now he wants to try and do what's best for it, if you think that's to release it back into the wild. Then that's brilliant you've made your point so you can stop repeating yourself. If he chooses to keep Rita and give her the best life possible then we should try and help. It's called the rat forum, people come here for guidance and support if you don't agree with what they're doing then move onto another thread. Our fancy rat pets originate from wild animals lets not forget, so if someone sometime somewhere hadn't decided to 'keep' some, then we would not have them in our homes today.


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## lovemyfurries

Adeliek said:


> From a kind of outsiders point of view this has all got WAY out of hand. This guy had a choice, the rat was persistently invading his workshop and causing trouble. So he either killed it, or caught it. I could never kill any animal big or small unless it was truly suffering. He caught this animal, and obviously became slightly attached...probably because it took so many attempts! So now he wants to try and do what's best for it, if you think that's to release it back into the wild. Then that's brilliant you've made your point so you can stop repeating yourself. If he chooses to keep Rita and give her the best life possible then we should try and help. It's called the rat forum, people come here for guidance and support if you don't agree with what they're doing then move onto another thread. Our fancy rat pets originate from wild animals lets not forget, so if someone sometime somewhere hadn't decided to 'keep' some, then we would not have them in our homes today.


I agree !


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## DustyRat

So how is the fuzz ball now?


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## Kucero

deedeeiam said:


> I ran a wild animal rehab for 15 years...does that count?


Ever made any of those wild animals happy in captivity? Then no, it doesn't.



deedeeiam said:


> After you caught her initially, you should have just shored up your workshop to limit her access and put her back out in nature. You took a _thriving_, _healthy _animal out of the local ecosystem (and quite possibly killed an entire litter)


I should have just shored it up like it was a simple matter of shutting a door or closing a window? Ever spent any of your outdoor time in a non-ventilated box during the summer? Just a few minutes of that kind of experience is all you'd need to understand that sealing off my shop's natural ventilation would be pretty daft. Even if I were inclined to do so, though, it would be a major construction endeavor requiring lots of money, time, and help, and after finishing THAT project, the next step would be to do the same to my house. The "local ecosystem" I took her out of was from inside my shop. Let me reiterate something in the original post: this rat escaped nine times, usually whenever I was transferring her from trap to cage, or from temporary cage to better cage, but I've caught her ten times, and all ten times, she was caught inside my shop.



deedeeiam said:


> This isn't a situation were the animal was in danger or it was abandoned. This is an adult now keeping a wild animal in a little cage, just like little kids try to do with bugs. That's not something to support, or even offer advice on, short of screaming RELEASE IT.


Not a good parallel here. My next-door neighbor is an avid hunter, and "graciously" offered to shoot her when I told him I wasn't sure what to do with her. This is a rural area, and target practice isn't illegal here. I really didn't WANT to keep her and take on the responsibility, but I didn't want to dump her and have that on my conscience, either. A prey animal is ALWAYS in danger...except this one, because nothing can hurt her now.

She groomed my hand today. It was different than when she licks a finger free of vegetable juice; I could feel her teeth contact my skin like four times a second, for almost a minute, while she used her two front paws to manipulate. I took this as a positive sign.


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## Rat Daddy

Many years ago there was a debate on another forum on a different topic that raged for several years, so my friend and I went to some of the top experts in the field, each with many years of expertise and finally we talked to one fellow who commented that what made the debate so difficult to resolve was that both opposing methods worked just about equally as well. In other words the debate was essentially between two right answers... and therefore it wasn't one that either side was ever going to win or lose. In cases where one method did work better than the other, it was due to better implementation and execution not because of better theory. 

So the OP sets Rita free and an owl swoops down and eats her tomorrow... Would anyone really count this as a win for wildlife? Sure if you're really into owls it might be... But it's not really the best outcome for Rita. Nor is a life trapped in a cage the best life for Rita, but it might be better than being eaten by an owl... at least marginally...

There's no absolute right answer and no absolute wrong answer here. Every pet rat we own is the distant relative of a wild animal. If the first rats weren't taken from the wild none of us would own rats. That said, I think everyone was right in sharing their opinion and arguing their point of view. Just that I don't believe that it's a point that can ever be completely resolved. One might even argue that if a few more dodo birds or passenger pigeons had been taken into captivity those species may not be extinct now. 

Honestly, I don't know how the wood rat would do as a companion species. It's worked a treat for dogs and it's worked pretty well for our rats and Wilder proved that black rats can flourish among human friends. We're not talking about caging a wild Bengal tiger here.

Now the heading on this thread is regarding domesticating a wild adult rat. More specifically a wild adult wood rat not just caging it. Assuming that the OP is serious about domesticating Rita, I think he can provide an interesting life for her as a companion animal rather than just a cage animal, that would be a challenging and interesting pursuit. And we would all stand to learn a whole lot about Rita in the process. I for one, would be very interested to know if wood rats can befriend humans and how they would do as human companions. 

Sure the OP might get bitten, and there are some health risks the OP has to assume, but there's a real up side to both Rita and the OP if they can build a relationship. 

Given the choice between setting Rita free or locking her in a cage for the rest of her life, I think I would opt for setting her free, but given the third choice of actually socializing her and giving her a full life as a companion animal like a domestic rat or a dog, then this becomes an experiment I could support, at least up to the point it doesn't work out.

If gotchea had locked wilder in a cage and never let him out, I think she would have been very wrong, regardless of rescuing him as a pup. I think it's wrong for folks to lock domestic rats in a cage their whole lives. But I do believe that rats and humans can bond and share better and more interesting lives together than they often can lead apart. 

So folks, it's fine to debate the merits of your beliefs, but don't get hostile... Always keep in mind that there can be two or even multiple right answers. And there may even be certain right answers are are only right in certain situations or right because they are marginally better than other answers. Some right answers are even case specific to a particular rat and particular owner... All of our grand theories aside we can beat the daylights out of each other and all be wrong. Rita might be alive today because last night some owl went hungry. 

So, if the OP wants to lock Rita into a cage for the rest of her life or let her go, I'm out right here... If he's crazy enough to try and socialize her into a mutually rewarding domestic lifestyle, I'm willing to play along. I'm not pretending to be right or wrong or more right than anyone else. 

As some of your folks know, my interest and specialty is in rat bonding, socialization and behavior. I've learned from my mistakes and successes with a part wild rat and domestic rats and observations of wild rats. I'm prone to look at this as a fantastic learning experience. And as crazy as it might sound, this could turn out great for both Rita and the OP. But until someone actually tries it we'll never know....

So to the OP, take a look at my immersion thread at the top of the behavior section, consider armoring up so you don't get bitten and give it some thought. If you can build a real relationship with Rita the two of you might just have a real future together. Lots of wild brown rats have lived fun and rewarding lives with human families and so have some black rats... Can wood rats become house pets and live in domestic bliss or can you socialize an adult wood rat? Can immersion even work with wood rats? To be honest, I don't think anyone knows for sure... I suppose, I could even argue against wood rats becoming bonded to humans as they are more of a solitary species, but until someone tries it, we will never know.

Best luck to you and Rita whatever you decide to do.


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## gotchea

Awww she groomed you XD haha that made my heart warm!


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## Kucero

Rat Daddy, I read your immersion posts...that is exactly the sort of education I was hoping to find when I came to these forums. I've spent many hours learning as much as I could find about rats in general and Eastern woodrats in particular, and there is little to no information to be found on woodrats in captivity that weren't put there strictly for the sake of research.

One thing I did find interesting is that one of those captive woodrats lived for 8 years and 7 months.

My experience with Rita has taken a sharp turn. She just had two babies. All three are fine. Those babies are very red, but well-furred across the back and head. It's difficult to read a rodent's expression, so I'm watching her body language. I think she's a little tense, but not fearful. She's still being hand fed with no problems yet, but now my primary concern is whether I need to adjust her diet in a way that will help our newborn ratties.


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## Tesumph

I would assume more protein (nuts, insects, beans), as well as nesting material (fleece?) would be in order.


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## lovemyfurries

Don't have the time now, but WOW! Egg is also good for protein for mommy Rita so amazing that she nibble cleaned you, that's normally a sign that you've been accepted into her family. Will read or write more later


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## Rat Daddy

You've very much nailed it... there's very little behavioral information on wood rats out there when it comes to socializing them or bonding with them... To some degree it's make it up as you go along. What works with brown and black rats might be a good starting point, but certainly not entirely appropriate... 

To make things more interesting, being a new Mom, Rita is likely to become more protective and possibly more hostile towards intrusion.... Funny, when I saw Rita moving all the stuff around her cage I kept thinking she looked like she was nesting... And the pups she already had seemed to be too small a litter...

Congrats on being a dad!

I'm thinking she was attracted to the peanut butter, so nuts might be good for her now... maybe not peanut butter, but unsalted nuts in general... In nature, there would have been american chestnuts and acorns around this time of year while the species was evolving... (not horse chestnuts) I'm talking about the roasting kind of chestnut... I don't know if wood rats are seasonal in terms of when they reproduce, but if there's something abundant where you live in the woods, I'm guessing her pregnancy would be timed with that. 

Black rats and brown rats are pretty much tropical animals so their breeding cycles aren't tied to the seasons, wood rats however are more temperate, so they may need certain things to help them gestate and nurse found in nature... 

If all else fails go with lots of variety. Greens, seeds, nuts, fruits and grains... you can't go too far wrong that way. Rita will pick and choose what she needs. Interestingly enough this also gives you a couple of pups to raise... 

For now, I'd suggest monitoring Rita for stress or anxiety, she may like you, but don't bring too many other people around... Wild rats usually don't bond well with more than one or a few humans and still see other humans as a threat. We don't want Rita to neglect her kids because she's freaked out over something you can prevent. I'll assume she's used to your routine, so that shouldn't bother her too much, but don't break things up too much or she may stress out and do something undesirable at least until the pups open their eyes. Once they are eating some solid foods you are going to have to meet them and begin socializing them, by then Rita should be OK with it (hopefully) because socializing wild rats should start as soon as possible... As no one has done this, there's no rule about the right time to introduce yourself to the pups or how Rita will react. You have to play this by ear and watch for her reaction as you go.

Keep in mind, even the best advise you are likely to get is only our best guess, based on theory developed with a completely different species, no one that I know has actually raised a wood rat so careful experimenting is going to be part of the process. I suspect we are all about to learn something about wood rats. Keep us posted.

And again congrats dad!


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## cccgina1

Pics! I think it's very sweet what he's done for Rita.


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## Lita

I just have to say this is amazing. And that is the cutest thing I have ever seen! I hope the babies do well! And I didn't see anyone say this but don't feel bad about loosing the first babies you tried to hand raise. We tried with a litter of 13 fancy rat pups who's mom died and it was hard and heart breaking when they died for no obvious reason. We were told when they are that small it's really hard, especially when their eyes havnt even opened, to keep them going. But that's so amazing you tried! Best of luck with her and the new babies!


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## Tesumph

I've been thinking about Rita all day lol. I don't condone keeping wild animals, but clearly you care about her and she seems "different" enough for this to be an exception to the rule... What does her current cage look like now? I wish I was as handy as you haha. Also, I'm curious, are you able to get into the cage? Do you give her food through the bars, or a door? Does she try to escape if/when you open a door? And how do you plan on cleaning up the soiled cage... eventually? I watched the video and WOW, she is beautiful. :3


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## Kucero

Rita and babies are doing well so far. It might be something rat experts are used to, but it tickles me when I see Rita walk around just dragging her newborns along with her nipples.

Rita is understandably extra tense, and has given me a couple of warning lunges for putting my hand into the cage too quickly. She's fed directly, not through the cage wires. Her dwelling is multi-leveled, and before the babies, it wasn't difficult to restrict her access to a certain area of the cage if I needed to clean it. Now, though, she's probably going to have to live without having her cage cleaned for who knows how long. I'm just playing it by ear and doing my best to determine her levels of tension and stress.

I'm not taking a bunch of pictures, because it would probably increase her anxiety. I did manage to get a decent shot of the babies while Rita was getting a drink, and she didn't seem to notice or worry. I'm surprised at how dark and thick their fur is already.


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## Hey-Fay

They're beautiful, congratulations. Do you know the age to separate? Unless of course you've gotten lucky and both pups are female.


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## Lita

I'm curious, I've been thinking about it all day, you said woodrat prefer solitary life to the group life other rats have. What do you plan on doing with the babies once they've grown? They are super cute to! I hope you post more pictures as they grow.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh they beautiful, so happy to hear Rita and her babies are doing well  Congrats again... They look gorgeous. I once put my hand into a pet store cage where the momma rat had babies and she bit right through drawing blood. Considering that was a domesticated rat you are doing very well if Rita's still eating from your hand. After a few days maybe when she starts to leave them for slightly longer stretches you could try? I'll leave that up to the experts to advise though. 

It's just sooo awesome. Are you coping okay?


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## evander

Aaawwww how sweet - nothing like sweet little babies!!


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## Kucero

I have no idea when separation would be a good idea. Eastern woodrats have a different cycle. Gestation is 33-36 days, lifespan in captivity is up to 8.6 years, weaning takes place at 4 weeks, sometimes three. Eyes begin opening during their third week. Females reach sexual maturity at 5-6 months, while males take a full year.

Right now, I'm just trying to keep mama as comfortable as possible, given our circumstances. She never has to leave her babies to find food, and she's certainly not going hungry.


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## nanashi7

Just a thought. The babies will never be good for release, but solitary wild
Creatures tend to violently evict their kits that don't leave so.


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## Rat Daddy

Nanashi7,

Your point is thoughtful and logical and may very well be more on target than off the mark...

But when my part wild brown rat went native she adapted to the outdoors very well, her indoor skills had her invading neighbor's houses to steal food and her outdoor skills born from instinct made her a force to be reckoned with. She was a supreme indoor/outdoor suburban rat. Remember, for these wood rats, being free might just involve invading someone else's wood shop and stealing their stuff combined with the basic instincts to not get eaten, they may actually do better than rats that never lived with humans. Where I would agree that a lion that never learned to hunt might be disadvantaged being set free in the wilderness, my experience with our part wild rat would seem to prove that rats benefit from all of their experiences and adapt to survive. 

Especially for brown rats, when we talk about wild, we might be talking about living in a warehouse or behind a McDonalds and foraging for native foods might be dumpster diving. Or in the case of my part wild rat, stealing my neighbor's dog food from his pitbull terriers.

We don't really know enough about wood rats to know if they can be released... if you think about it, all you have to do to return them into their native environment is to set them free in the shop. 

As to the part about solitary wild animals kicking their kids out violently... bunnies tend to be pretty solitary in the wild too, but my friend had 17 at one time and they didn't kill each other. You may be very much right, or not... we can't disagree here because we won't know what happens until it happens. 

In all reality, wood rats aren't rats as we know them... Some folks didn't think black rats could become true shoulder rats. And very likely some, many or most can't. But one did. Again we don't know much about wood rats in a domestic situation. We don't know if they can bond with humans or not... But folks have kept mice, hamsters, gerbils, ground hogs, beavers, nutria rats, pouched rats squirrels and even capybara's as pets and all of those have bonded with their humans... so I wouldn't bet against it yet.

It seems that most folks say that hamsters aren't social animals, and yet they have found a place in human households... But wood rats aren't hamsters nor are they black or brown rats... we simply don't know what we don't know.

For now, I think Rita is lucky to have found Kucero and not to have been trapped or poisoned. And I think he's really trying to take care of them. There's no telling where this is going to go... This could go terribly wrong or we may wind up welcoming a brand new species into the rat fancy...

For now, everything seems under control... and Kucero has assured me he is going to work on socializing his rat family so they won't wind up as caged prisoners... Which is a heck of a commitment when starting out with a wild rat of any kind. 

For now.... I'm hoping for the best. If wood rats are as intelligent and emotionally balanced as brown and black rats a rat with a good temperament and an 8 year life span might actually have a place in this fancy.... But we will never know until someone seriously tries...

Our Max is only a year old and she's already starting to get lumpy, the constant cycle of rats dying off can't possibly be good for my eight year old daughter, even though they make for perfect pets and friends... If wood rats can be socialized and can live with humans in a family structure other than as caged animals, having the same rat for more than two years might be something I would consider seriously.

Although for now, I wouldn't encourage anyone else to try and trap a pet wood rat for themselves, I'm more than curious to see how this goes. There are some real challenges ahead, especially if one of the pups is a boy... But until things actually start going wrong... I'm going to stay optimistic... Lets cross one bridge at a time as we get there.


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## Kucero

Things got worse before they got better. The day the vermin twins were born, Rita seemed tense. The following day, I guess the reality of her new role started setting in, and she began agressively lunging toward anything that moved. On Day 3, she was wound tighter than a deer streaking across a firing range. My hand doesn't go into that cage unless I'm offering food. I covered a finger in some delicious cream alfredo sauce I thought she'd like, and she lunged so violently, she overshot and made a mess all over her head. She spent a few minutes cleaning herself while I waited patiently with my hand as motionless as possible, then came back to partake of the treat the right way.

The problem is her vision, and it doesn't matter what kind of lighting is involved. The poor thing can't see. I usually keep it pretty dark, for the comfort of her and the babies, but she doesn't see my hand until it's about eight inches from the little bed she and the ratlings stay in.

As a precursor to feeding time, I say her name and click twice before releasing the latch that holds the door closed. On Day 4, she did a complete 180. Not a single lunge all day, no hesitation, and she's back to taking those edible tidbits as sweetly and gently as she always has. It seems that the best illumination is having a light source shine on my hand while keeping her in relative darkness.

Another positive change is that she's more comfortable cleaning and grooming the babies. Until Day 4, she would hover over them and conceal them as much as possible. Today, I was treated several times to the sight of two squirming babies getting baths while they squeaked and grunted in protest.


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## lovemyfurries

Aw man, I started getting really tense there for a minute but then when you said Rita did a complete 180 I breathed again. So happy to hear it that's a really good sign. You probably already know more about this little wood rat than anyone else and you obviously also have very good instinct. Rita's probably relaxed more into her role as mom which is awesome. Can't wait to see more pics.


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## Kucero

How's this one? I took it only ten minutes ago. I forgot the flash was on when I took it, though, so I left them alone after that. Rita didn't seem to even notice. She was too focused on cleaning that baby's foot.









See all that white stuff? That used to be several cotton balls.


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## darkiss4428

she is verry pretty


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## Kucero

New video! Rita has to redecorate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRdP11U7vY


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## RattieLover1331

Kucero said:


> New video! Rita has to redecorate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRdP11U7vY


Aw she is a cutie! Nice video by the way


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## bloomington bob

nice video


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## Lita

We have that hamster cage and used it temporarily as a home for my girl Cricket before we introduced her to her cage mates. I'm just so surprised and how...big yet tiny Rita is! She seems to have a very big head. Like a little cartoon. It is adorable, and if they really live that long, and can be social and friendly with people, I agree with Rat Daddy, might be nice new species to the fancy. Course that would take years, but hey, time breeds better results?

Anyway, that video is just adorable! and the pictures. and Rita. and the pups.


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## lovemyfurries

Kucero, that was the cutest thing I've seen in a long time firstly Rita with her baby's foot and the video. She she's so full of energy and has the biggest eyes and I love your little trash bins for new stuff for her to redecorate with. One of my rats is always trying to get into the garbage so you've given me an idea. And my other boy just after cleaning his cage he also does the whole redecorate thing. It's so entertaining to watch him. Thanks for the pics and the video really enjoy them.


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## evander

So entertaining!! I can see how you fell in love with those big brown eyes!!

Your next video should be accompanied by Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl!!!


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## Pan&Lou

This is so interesting. I posted a topic a long time ago about domesticating rats, all in theory of course. 
I'm going to be stalking this post for as log as possible! I'm like RatDaddy on the matter of experimentation and getting to observe this species in a captive setting. 
The video with her in the blue hut was so cute <33


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## Kucero

8-18-14














8-20-14




















8-24-14

I really wish I had taken more pics more often.


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## Kucero

8-24-14








8-29-14








8-30-14


























9-4-14 (three days before having babies)


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## Kucero

9-7-14 (First baby day)








9-8-14 (One day old)














9-11-14




















9-12-14 (almost 5 days old)

For four days, Rita sat on her kids in the little blue bed on the bottom level. I don't know why she switched nursery locations, but now they're all crammed in the blue hut up top that Rita can barely squeeze her own self into. The babies about the same size as the first two little ones were when my neighbor found them, maybe even a bit bigger. Should we start a pool to see how long she'll keep them there before she decides that being a family of sardines isn't as glamorous as she originally anticipated?


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## lovemyfurries

Aww thanks for all the pics... I absolutely love the one where Rita is sleeping with her legs outstretched, it's precious. She obviously really likes the blue house ( more private? ) let's hope that they leave before they all get stuck Keep posting


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## Rat Daddy

Oddly, I've seen this in mice a few days after giving birth in a next they build with great effort, moms often move their pups to the most cramped space they can find in the cage. I'm thinking they start worrying about the babies crawling away on their own.

There may also be some advantages in nature in moving your nest to tighter quarters before predators find it.

Just a guess...


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## Kucero

They'd have had a harder time crawling over the little bed's borders. It's so cramped in that hut, I occasionally see a baby hanging halfway out, little feet just a-kickin'.

Rita can't even get her entire head out in the open. Feeding her is much more difficult now because it's not only difficult for me to maneuver from the cage opening to where I have the hut bolted down, but since she can't lift her head, I have to bring my hand all the way to her until my fingers are almost beneath her nose. This makes me a little nervous because of proximity to the babies...I've had little tails and little feet press against me...but Rita hasn't given me any warning lunges or even indicated that she's nervous. To the contrary, she occasionally takes her sweet time during bites, pausing to groom herself or a wriggling baby before acknowledging whatever tidbit I'm patiently holding for her.

I don't mind it one bit. Grooming and cleaning isn't something she did at all during those first couple of days, so I think its a positive sign.


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## PawsandClaws

Definitely a positive sign I think. I really enjoyed the picture of her napping, she looked peaceful.


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## AznDonutBoy

Glad to see someone else take care of a caught wild rat 

I have a wild albino rat that a friend caught running down the street... somehow...

They make for... very interesting pets. Don't really know if shes fully wild or someones former pet rat, she isn't scared of humans nor was she ever to began with. When I first met her (a day after she was caught) she straight away licked my entire hand. She doesn't like being held though.


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## Kucero

Albinism is a mutation that does occur in the wild, but any wild rat unfortunate enough to live with it won't do so for long because white rats are REALLY obvious to predators. And although the sum of my rat knowledge comes solely from a few weeks of reading plus my experience with my own little wild pest, I'm 99% certain that no adult wild rat who has not been tamed would not be afraid of humans. It sounds like your rat is domesticated.


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## Kucero

Day 6 - Rita is still keeping the family in that cramped one-room apart-hut. At the rate the babies are growing, she's going to have to relocate back downstairs really soon, before they're too big to fit through the upstairs/downstairs porthole.
















It might look like levitation, but this little one is just "hanging out". Couldn't resist. 
















I'm really glad I got these last two. Toward the day's end, Rita tried something new, putting her head against the back wall of the hut, her hindquarters at the front door, and turned to lay mostly on her side so the little ones could easily find a nipple and latch on. This is the first head shot I've been able to snag since the one I got away with on their first full day. 









And here they are, both of them content and happy, and it looks like the ears are beginning to unfold. Evey resource I read from said this shouldn't happen yet, it's supposed to happen on the 9th day. Whatever the case, they sound healthy (I love all of their little squeaks!), they are uncoordinated but energetic, and they look beautiful.


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## Pan&Lou

Oh my gosh they are to precious!


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## Rat Daddy

AznDonutBoy...

First, being white or even albino is not a fatal handicap for a wild rat. I've seen captive raised snakes for example that only eat white mice and my best fishing lure was a dark green Rebel painted to look like a small pickerel. It worked in both fresh and salt water. Predators are looking for a certain color/shape pattern and white isn't likely what they are expecting to find. 
Secondly wild rats tend to burrow and move rapidly from one sheltered location to another as well as using shadows to their full benefit. Thus they wouldn't be exposing their white fur to present a target very often or for very long. I do however believe that the poorer eyesight commonly associated with being albino would be a handicap depending on where the wild rat lives. 

This also becomes a point of interest... because when we say wild rat... we aren't talking about giraffes we are talking about rats... Rats don't free range the vast plains of Africa and graze treetops with their long necks or stampede across the open plains like Wildebeest or Zebras. A wild rat might live in a warehouse or under a schoolyard playground or under a McDonalds dumpster or in a landfill... To a wild rat the "wilderness" may not look very wild to us. A white rat in a landfill full of waste paper products may be very well camouflaged and living in a warehouse might present no challenge at all for even a blind rat that learns it's way around be feel and scent and to avoid forklifts. The first albino rat was found in a cemetery... perhaps marble or cement tombstones also being white might have even given the albino an advantage.

Nonlethal genetic mutations occur over the course of centuries or even millennia, I suspect that most of the genes that provide the broad color and pattern palate have been around for a very long time. As they are recessive they aren't often seen in wild populations, but I'm guessing that there were some very rare hooded rats, for example, around long before humans bred for this trait and that they were successful in passing on their genes.

All of that said... I agree that your feral albino was a most likely a domestic rat that was released at one point. Adult wild rats are notoriously difficult to socialize. This isn't because they can't be socialized or that they can't bond with humans. It's just that wild rats tend to defend themselves and have a strong fear response when taken captive. Combined with sharp teeth, speed and agility this usually means the human is going to get really hurt before and during the bonding process. 

A few years back, my daughter found a pack of wild rats free ranging in the zoo parking lot, she was 5 years old and wanted another rat, she already smelled like out girl rat and when she went into the shrubs to "catch" herself a friend for her rat, I was astonished to see the wild rats respond very playfully, darting around her feet tempting my daughter to chase them and then dashing off into the bushes and rather than being chased off, more and more rats came out to play... until there were actually so many smallish wild rats darting back and forth that I realized my daughter's chances of actually grabbing one were getting all too good for my liking and I ended the play session... I'm substantially certain that if she actually grabbed one of these wild rats it would have been game over and things would have turned bloody serious instantly. And I'm not sure if she might not have gotten attacked by the pack or just bitten by the one rat she snagged. As a dad, this is one experiment I wasn't up for. It was crazy enough to let a 5 year old chase around with a pack of rats in the first place, even when I'm pretty good understanding rats and they weren't being aggressive.

Nothing is completely certain, but I'm guessing if you grab an adult wild rat that has had no human contact, you are going to get bitten 99.99% of the time. So, if nothing else, I base my opinion on that....

I also believe that most rats still have some latent wild abilities that a stint in nature will bring out so a domestic rat is going to develop it's skills by being outdoors over time. Our Fuzzy Rat could navigate vast distances outdoors. Max learned to find the car after several outings too. This kind of skill simply isn't something indoor rats develop, so I'm not at all surprised that your albino is a very interesting rat. And yes, it might be a recent wild rat back cross, like my part wild rat was. Accidental or even intentional wild x domestic crosses happen and although the vast majority of first generation wild crosses look wild second, third or subsequent generations are likely to look like a domestic rats, but aren't necessarily going to act like domestic rats, hence it was set free or escaped. So if your albino really does act wild, it may be the result of a recent back cross... but if it didn't bite you, I'll bet it has had some human contact before your friend caught it.

The world is full of some very interesting rats!


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## Rat Daddy

As to the subject thread, the pups do look great and it's really nice that Rita isn't freaking out around you. Every day we add something new to our knowledge-base. 

My mom told me stories about her pet squirrel that she hand raised before I was born eventually she set it free to live in the Oak tree in the back yard, but she said it always came into the kitchen for breakfast with her and it would often follow her around the house while she did her chores "like a puppy" until they sold the house and moved. That was about sixty plus years ago... and even before that, squirrels had been kept as pets as the term "squirrel cage fan" obviously comes from somewhere. So I don't doubt that wood rats have been kept as pets by someone before too, but most of the information folks gathered in their homes based on their actual experiences have been lost. The nice part of you actually doing this now and basically live and on line is that we are all learning with you and creating a record of actual fact, not second hand recollections from the son of someone that did something 60 years ago that is no longer with us to fill in the details.

Over the thousands of years of human experience science was done by everyday people. Everyone tried stuff and when it worked we learned and progressed. Now we've relegated research to a few researchers... which I find very sad. I'm thinking if the human race had assigned scientific research to a few research specialists thousands of years ago, we'd still be reading research papers on the potential of creating heat from fire off of sun dried clay tablets.

You are really doing good work here and I remain fascinated with where this will go. A domesticated rat that lives 8 years would most certainly find a good home in my household... As much as I love brown rats my daughter has lost 4 best friends in three years, that's a whole lot of loss for an 8 year old to have already experienced.

Friends who don't object to rats are telling me that this can't be good... and the other day when I brought up rats that live longer, my daughter said that might not be good because she might get too attached... Are 8 year old kids supposed to be worrying about getting too attached to their pets? I don't know the answer... but I'm getting concerned. 

I don't know if wood rats can become human companions, and lord knows I like my fancy pens and don't want them wandering off, but I've got an open mind and thanks for sharing your adventures with us. I can't wait until the socialization and bonding phase gets into high gear... 

Best luck.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh man those pics are cute. LOVE the baby feet in the 'levitation' pic. I love reading about the progress thanks for all the pics and keeping us updated.

Rat Daddy, my daughter has up to date lost 8 of our own ratties, 1 foster and we raised and had to give 7 babies to their forever homes. She's almost 15, slightly brain damaged and I have also wondered how this affects her. We also lost 2 dogs, a cat and a cockatiel. She remembers every one of her pets and we have a special story book where we write each name in as the pet goes and then read the story again each time. I keep thinking I can't do this anymore but the love and joy far outweighs the loss. She's always ready to get more. She's learned about the life and death from a young age. Heartbreaking at the time...but okay. She kisses them goodbye, then turns her back. Don't know if that helps at all, just wanted you to know I'm also concerned as to how this will impact her in the long run...and so you're not alone in those thoughts. Growing up with cats myself though and always loving animals in general I personally feel it's very important for children to have and love pets. Not the spoilt kids who ask for pets and then lose interest in two weeks but the genuine love for animals and how much we can learn from them. 

That's also why I'm loving learning step by step with/ from Kucero about Rita. We can learn so much.


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## deedeeiam

Holy novel ratman.


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## Kucero

Figuring Rita knows what she needs for her nursing diet, I tried a lot of different foods to see what she refused, what she ate, and what she ate a lot of. I'll typically give her several choices, going from what she prefers less of and ending with "dessert"...usually peanut butter, or an occasional milk chocolate chip. I know that a high protein diet is bad for a rat's kidneys, but nursing mothers do need extra protein and calories.

She starts out with a fresh slice or piece of something, like raw green bean, baby carrot (which I peel first), potato (no skin), apple, etc. When she's had enough, she either refuses the next one I offer her, or tosses the remainder of what she had started eating outside of her hut or nest. At that point, I offer something from the next tier; banana, canned green bean, whole grain sweet corn, and the like. After she's eaten her fill of that, I offer peanut or cashew butter or a small piece of milk chocolate. Since they also eat insects, I sometimes give her a cricket (not wild) or two, and she has access to all the uncooked Basmati rice or uncooked oats that she wants.

I purchased a 3-pound bag of Oxbow's Regal Rat, but she wouldn't touch it at first. Last week, I finally got her to try one chip. Today, she ate two of them. Only 2.999 pounds to go...

Toward the beginning, when I was first feeding her by hand, she would turn away from me when she was full. As time progressed and she began approaching me to get fed, the meal would end when she would take whatever was offered, eat part of it, and discard the rest. Since having the babies, if she doesn't want something, she will still take it, but drop it immediately ("No thanks. Next, please.") and that lets me know it's time to move to the next tier. This worked until I realized that the crafty little vermin has learned to ditch the first two "courses" in anticipation of having dessert. She didn't do this at EVERY meal, but it happened often enough that I had to teach her a new concept: no dessert until after you've eaten something nutritious.

This makes me wonder how much of her natural instinct to eat what she needs has been nudged aside by her taste for new and yummy treats she had not known before. Are there any thoughts on this behavior, or suggestions about anything I should be doing differently?


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## Kucero

More baby pics








If not for the chewed-up blue plastic, this pic would be good enough for Hallmark.














As the babies have grown, I've been seeing this kind of thing with increasing frequency. Overflowing ratties.

More to come...I've reached the maximum data allowed for a single post.


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## gotchea

I'm glad things are going well. She sure as heck wants to stay in that blue hut! Haha I love the color on all of them.


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## Kucero

I can't post any more pics, 'cause I've reached my maximum quota. I'm not sure if that means I'm at my limit for the day, or if we're allowed only so much for an entire thread.


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## cccgina1

So cute! Thx for sharing!


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## december333

I've been following but haven't said anything thus far. 
Babies are so cute!! 

I just wanted to chime in because I've had the same problem with the images and the app. I can no longer directly upload photos because of the quota. But you can upload to a outside site and post the embed codes. It's an extra step and kind of annoying but it works. Unless someone else has a better idea/method. Good luck! 
Looking forward to reading more about your story with Rita and pups. And seeing more pictures


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## pairaducks

I've been watching this thread for a bit and it's pretty cool seeing things progress as they have! Very cute little girl and babies as well!

and to add on to decembers suggesting, imgur is a good image uploading site. You can upload large amounts of photos and share the images that way. The upload process is also pretty user friendly and quick.


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## december333

I second imgur. It's what I use also


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## Kucero

Testing

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## Kucero

Per December333 and Paraducks' suggestions, I put images on imgur.com. I had to reduce the picture sizes, but any way I can show an image is a thousand times better than trying to describe it. Thanks to both of you!









"Hey, I'm nursin' here! Ya wanna get that light outta my face?"









Not really 100% dignified for Rita, but precious for the twins.









Rita was halfway to the bathroom (she's almost completely litter trained) when she turned around to detach the other baby back in the blue hut. I couldn't get the camera out fast enough, but even so, she was still moving fast enough to blur.


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## lovelyemptiness

This thread was an adorable read through at 4 am best luck with your loves


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## livenatso

I'm fascinated by the idea of human raised baby wood rats... Wonder what they're gonna be like temperament wise in comparison to pet rats


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## lovemyfurries

Rita's babies are gorgeous!!! Those little podgy feet are too cute. I had the same problem with photos and someone on site suggested tinypic.com, but glad you are sorted with pics now. I love seeing the progress. Can't believe Rita is almost toilet trained, that's great. I'm still battling with one of my boys, he is either very stubborn or just doesn't care. He always goes to the same place though, just OUTSIDE his toilet


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## ruffles

My goodness! I'm glad I logged on tonight and saw this; what an utterly fascinating read. While I personally have no interest in taming down a wild rat, your situation is unique, and I find Rita's tameness to be entirely amazing. Seriously -- it's incredible. I can't imagine any of the super-shy Wood Rats we had in FL (golly they were big; I swear to you one was bigger than our cat) acting like that. That she grooms you is wonderful and adorable.

And speaking of adorable, those babies? WOW. Their coats are utterly gorgeous, and their chunky little butts are so cute. Wow. I never knew a wood rat was actually even more beautiful than my boys!

Out of curiosity, have you given any more thought to any designs for a larger cage for her? I have interests of my own in a better cage design, and a wood worker's perspective on building would be interesting to me.


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## lovemyfurries

Kucero, how are you, Rita and babies doing?


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## Kucero

I haven't been as frequent with updates lately, partly because I've been wondering about the level of interest, but mostly because my teenage son set fire to the house while trying to burn a wasp nest, and it's been chaotic since then. The rat family is doing very well.









Still questioning how best to fill Rita's dietary needs, I bought a bag of 15 different types of beans, and a can of mixed nuts that contained no peanuts. I put an equal number of each variety in two separate little bins to see what Rita wanted to eat, but she never touched them. She'll eat nuts from my hand, but I guess she's not too keen on eating from a bin. Not sure I understand what that's all about.









"Thy hut runneth over..."

I've been handling the babies. It looks like I have a boy and a girl. The girl is a bit chubbier, more comfortable with me, and less vocal. The other one is a mama's boy; if he smells his mother, that's where he heads. The girl doesn't seem to care where she is, as long as she's warm. Rita doesn't stress out as long as I don't have both babies at once. As long as she has one to take care of, she seems content to do so. The first time I had both at once, she started bruxing, so I returned both of them quickly and waited a while before trying again.









They're two weeks old now. Eyes will be opening soon.


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## Roonel

They are super cute, thanks for the update! Aak about your son burning down the house though...


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## livenatso

Thanks so much for the update! I was wondering how the family was doing. I read that wild rats prefer to eat food that's been scent marked by other rats so that they know it's safe and not poisonous so maybe she's reluctant to trust the food you give her unless you personally hand it to her.


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## lovemyfurries

So sorry to hear about the fire....big oops I'd say? Hope there wasn't too much damage? There is a ton of interest  oh my word that pic of baby in hand is soooooo precious!!! It's wonderful that Rita's allowing you to handle them if only one at a time. I'm so happy for the progress thanks for sharing. I always wait for news.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh Rita, really, time for you to move girl....your babies are falling out! Such a cute pic. They're so chubby, wish it could hold them too 

If she's happier eating from your hand, I'd say let her she obviously trusts you. Leave the bowls in though she might eat from them when you aren't there. It sometimes takes even a domestic rat some time to try new food. Some just go and eat, but others take their time over it making sure it's safe.


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## lovemyfurries

I meant I wish I could hold them...not it !


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## evander

Still plenty of interest!! They all look like they are ding well!! I think it is very impressive that Rita lets you hold the babies at all!!


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## bloomington bob

Thanks for the updates!


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## Kucero

Rita has trouble deciding where home is; cramped but warm blue hut, or soft and roomy bed. Babies are 12 days old here.









13 days old.


















On Day 14, the little boy's right eye opened. Day 15, both babies opened their left eyes. Today, the little girl's right eye opened a bit.


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## Dan203

Wow what a cool story. Those little guys are super cute. I'm really surprised she hasn't been more against you touching them though.


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## cccgina1

Omg they're adorable! Thx for the update!


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## pairaducks

d'aww, that's adorable


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## lovemyfurries

They are so precious, look at those eyes. They're nice and chubby, Rita feeds her babies well. It's so great you getting to hold them. Praying for the day Rita let's you hold her too. That will be amazing  thanks for the pics!!


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## Kucero

It took months, but Rita finally bit me. It wasn't because she was defending babies or because she was simply feeling hostile; I think it's because I've been feeding her too many insects.

Eastern woodrats are herbivores, so they're foragers, not scavengers, but insects account for a small part of their diet. Those babies are fat in part because I've been feeding Rita very well, and she LOVES crickets and mealworms. Whenever I'm giving her veggies, she's a docile little lamb, but she becomes a deadly little hunter if there's a bug anywhere near her. The first time I fed her a cricket, she actually startled me. The poor thing can't see much at all; can't even see a cricket right in front of her face, but her sense of smell and hearing is better than I would have thought possible. She can detect the sound of a cricket crawling over the paper substrate three levels down, and she becomes the predator, moving unbelievably fast to get near it and barely slowing down as she relies on her sense of smell to lunge out and catch it. Once the bug is nabbed, she sits back on her haunches and enjoys the spoils of victory.

My hand must have made the wrong kind of sound as I was withdrawing it from the cage, because she lunged out and bit, but must have realized her mistake, because she barely grazed the skin.

On a positive note, the twins are not even weaned, and they're already bruxing to show contentment. All it takes is repeated light strokes on the head with a fingertip. Their eyes get heavy, their little jaws start moving, and I can hear the clicking sounds they make. Remember that these woodrats are born with their incisors already erupted...and those teeth have grown significantly. I have been trying to get this on video, but I have to stop stroking their heads to get the camera, and they stop bruxing by the time the camera is ready. It also won't work unless I'm actually holding them with the other hand, because they're not used to not having something warm next to them at all times.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh wow! The fact that Rita didn't draw blood and barely scraped skin is a HUGE sign. My boys will also do that if I'm offering a tasty treat, but the minute they realize it's my finger they stop and let go. Sounds pretty much what Rita did too. I actually got excited when I read that and the fact that you know her well enough also to tell she wasn't trying to lunge at you specifically well that goes without saying.

I can't believe her babies are so content, bruxing already, that's just plain amazing I am so very happy to hear. Don't worry about the video yet. You have such an awesome way of explaining yourself that one can picture it anyway. Photos for now are fine. I'm just so glad things are going so well

Well done little wood rat daddy!!


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## kksrats

My goodness, so much has happened since I read this thread last! I'm very excited to hear all the progress you and Rita have made in your relationship and those babies are just too plump and adorable to bear. As far as the insect incident, I have actually encountered the same reaction after giving mealworms to my rats. They're ferocious little things when it comes to live prey and I usually have to space the mealworms out as treats with several days in between or they will start lunging at my hands expecting worms to be there. Even the baked mealworms cause this behavior in my girls lol. Glad to see all is well and I hope there was not too much damage from the fire. Keep up the great work!


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## Rat Daddy

As a teenager my dad gave me a container of gasoline and a couple cans of raid and sent me off to exterminate a nest of yellow jackets living in a tree stump... I don't remember that working out too well either. I've got to bet your incident looked interesting on the insurance claim form but I'm happy no one got hurt and hopefully things are getting back to normal.

It looks like you are making great progress with the pups. And yes, even brown rats have a tendency to go into hunt mode. None of current rats eat bugs, but my part wild rat did, she didn't so much hunt them as just hoover them up.... I got bit blocking her mid attack on a white mouse I was holding which I'm sure she saw as a extra special treat. But if she only barely grazed the skin I'd take it as a mock bite and not a prediction of things to come when the pups get older and you'll have to start working with her more.

If Rita's eyesight is really that bad, it's going to be just a little harder working with her, she might be easily spooked. But with brown rats, their eyesight isn't necessarily bad, just different. It's low resolution and sometimes they just don't recognize things either from close up or far away. It's not that they don't see them, they just don't seem to register right away. Some of my rats have proven they can navigate vast distances outdoors and distinguish my car from other cars at a distance, but then I've put food right in front of them and gotten a blank reaction... Then when I tell them it's food they are all over it. Try doing some tests with Rita and the pups as they get older at some point the pups should look towards motion in the room and perhaps try and get your attention and follow your movement with their eyes. With brown rats, my favorite basic vision test is whether they cross a room directly, or dart object to object or follow the walls... Rats that follow the walls usually have the worst eyesight, rats that run object to object can see better and rats that cross the room willy nilly can usually see pretty well. With brown rats, their eyesight actually takes pretty bright light to be most useful, in low light they are appear to be more blind than we are. 

The same goes with smell, I've had some rats that could smell a few crumbs of food from several rooms away and come running, but when they got withing a few feet of the food they started running a search pattern to find it, then I've had rats that don't seem to be able to find food from a distance, but when you put them a few feet from the food they run straight to it. I think those rats with a super sense of smell get overwhelmed when they are too close whereas rats with a lesser ability at a distance can follow the strength of the odor like an arrow up close and personal... There are lots of fun experiments you can try. I take it the pups haven't shown any interest in sold foods yet. That should come as they start exploring a bit. With brown rats, I usually start with shredded wheat cereal soaked in milk (even the frosted kind if I have it in the house) but I've never had a momma rat around so it's eyedropper to soft cereal because I want to get them eating solids and off of KMR as fast as I can. You might be able to skip the mushy foods step entirely.

Judging from how well the pups are doing it looks like you are pretty well on target with Rita's diet I can't wait until the pups are ready to explore and interact with you and their environment more and you can start working with Rita more one on one. 

Thanks for taking us all along on the adventure.


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## lovemyfurries

Rat Daddy that's so interesting. I had a black hooded ratty that developed a Pituatary tumor, before he would always just run all over the place, but after he lost his vision he used to only go along the edges of the room depending on what room he was in though. My PEW will walk or run in the middle of the room but if he gets startled he quickly runs to the wall. Shame the one day he tried to run back to my room and misjudged the doorway, he ran right into the skirting. He didn't get hurt though and mom was there to quickly reassure him


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## Rat Daddy

Rat vision is actually rather interesting, brown rats apparently have an awesome depth of field and can see into the UV spectrum. But their vision is Low resolution like a really old black and white tv. This is often translated to mean that rats have something like 20 x 400 vision... Which really isn't true, because that would imply their vision is out of focus. I need glasses, and when I take them off, my vision is blurry. Rats vision isn't necessarily blurry, it's just not detailed. Working with shoulder rats outdoors our Fuzzy Rat could navigate quite well visually and was pretty good at identifying people she knew and liked at a distance. With time and experience she learned to interpret her low resolution images pretty well. Like when I was a kid and the tv was snowy most of the time I could still 'see' what was going on and who was who. When we walked places with her she would ride on my shoulder facing rearwards, so if I put her down she could navigate back to the house or the car. When you start working with any rat outdoors, they pretty much run to any building... buildings are big and at first they pretty much figure every building is your house and every door is your front door, then with time and experience they become more accurate in how they interpret their visual images, and learn that your house looks different from the neighbors and what your front door looks like. So it's not only low resolution but understanding what the images mean. To some degree, the better the rats vision and the more practice a rat has at using it's vision for navigation the more competent a rat becomes. Your best true shoulder rat can really 'see' quite well.

When the sky is very overcast or it gets darker, rats seem to lose their eyesight more quickly than we do. I don't know if this is true or if there are just fewer visual cues to see in the dark so their low resolution picture gets even less pixels to interpret. When it started getting dark, Fuzzy Rat went back to the car or the house, especially when she got older, otherwise she would hang out on us.... This wasn't nearly as bad when she was young, but by the time she was over a year old, she wasn't going to be on the ground at night on her own given a choice. I don't recall her ever getting lost in the dark or acting confused, but I think she was uncomfortable because she couldn't make out predators and distant movement and that's what unnerved her.

Humans have a huge portion of their brain dedicated to eyesight and interpreting all of the high resolution visual data we take in and we burn a lot of energy processing visual data. Low resolution vision requires less brain size and power to process. Low light vision is useful to humans whereas rats have whiskers to navigate in pitch blackness. I might add that we followed Fuzzy Rat home from a playground once and she navigated the trip, about half a mile, absolutely perfectly right up to the front door turn by turn on the first try... Unless she could smell our footsteps, not likely she did it by looking rearwards when we carried her to the playground. At a certain point in her life, towards he very end, she started short cutting turns... Rats have a very remarkable mapping process. In other words they can memorize spacial distances and locations very well. In shorthand they can run mazes like nothing else... To a rat the world is just a giant maze.

Interestingly... rats process spacial information when they sleep. When we parked the car in a different space, Fuzzy Rat would always go straight to where we parked the car the day before then start a search pattern from there. You can witness this interesting mapping behavior with indoor rats too. When you set your rats loose to free range, most will scurry around their entire play area to re-map their space paying particular attention to things that weren't there before and things that moved. They will appear to be examining new things and climbing under and over them before getting on with normal play. Basically rats build very detailed maps in their mind. I suspect they can map in pitch darkness too using whisker touch.

Pink eyed rats and ruby eyed rats have worse problems with their vision. I had a black/ruby eyed rat that never seemed to be able to make out details smaller than a small house or a tree, she was terrified of being outdoors in the open and would run to any building or tree she saw in the distance. There was one PEW true shoulder rat her a while back, but in general bright light can damage pink eyes and ruby eyed and pink eyed rats make for less competent shoulder rats.

Black rats (ship rats) are arboreal and therefore have better vision. I guessed they should feel more competent and confident outdoors than brown rats do. And although there's only been one black shoulder rat this seems to hold true. Wilder was apparently quite at home outdoors in more open spaces.

It's been a pretty cheap cop out to say rats have bad eyesight when it comes to brown rats with normal eye color. It's more like they are differently enabled... Their vision is low res, and different spectrum, and likely inferior to ours, but bad eyesight doesn't nearly tell the whole story. It is going to be interesting to learn how and what wood rats can see and how they interpret their visual world. Perhaps their vision is low resolution too, or perhaps its more useful in certain lights or at certain distances... I expect it is adapted to their special needs and isn't "bad" at all just species specific and different from ours. Rodents have been evolving a whole lot longer than humans there aren't a lot of bugs left in the design. Every part of a rat is perfectly designed for its purpose. If a wood rats have eyes, and we know they do... there's a reason for why they are the way they are, now the fun starts in terms of figuring it out.


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## bloomington bob

Anothr fascinating post Rat Daddy, particularly the part about mapping - so interesting that Fuzzy Rat returned to the spot where the car had been th enigh tbefore


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## lovemyfurries

I agree Bloomington Bob, fascinating read,and also,in particular the mapping. Imagine being able to build detailed maps in your mind while sleeping. I wish I could, I'd never get lost thanks for the interesting info Rat Daddy!


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## Rat Daddy

I think it's important to mention at this time that training shoulder rats is hazardous and you are likely to get the wrong rat lost or killed. That said, it's what we do...

A lot of rat learning studies are done with mazes... which is really funny because that's what rats do best, it's like their brains are designed to map.... When training rats outdoors they tend to pick landmarks and run from one to another.... They stare at and identify them and then run to them, then they will pick the next landmark and run there... Rather comically there is a tidal drainage ditch between two landmarks Max uses to get to the parking lot... At low tide it's less than half an inch deep and she can easily walk across at high tide it can be a few feet deep. And one day at high tide she literally hit the water, didn't even try to swim until she was completely submersed... Now when she gets to the "creek" she stops and checks first. Fuzzy Rat always took the bridge across. And I always thought she only followed landmarks too, but one day she also discovered low tide and that she could cross the water, then she started taking a shortcut through the mini golf field to the car. There is a fence so she couldn't possibly see the car so she was obviously mapping the cars location based on a much more complex system than I had first imagined. Somehow she was able to plot the shortest distance between two points without actually seeing where she was going. The same thing happened on the trip back from the playground, she did it a couple of times and then suddenly she started cutting a diagonal through people's back yards... as we couldn't allow that we had to stop walking her back from the playground. If you drew a straight line from where she was to the house she would have hit the front door, but it would have meant going through fences and through yards that might have had dogs etc and places we couldn't follow her..... Sadly the short cutting behavior started towards the end of her life, shortly thereafter she became disabled so we really couldn't do much with it. It's just interesting to note that rats not only map their movements but fill in the gaps in at least a two dimensional, possibly three dimensional spacial model. But this makes sense, if you put something in a rat's path it doesn't get lost. It goes around, over or through. It's also a skill set that "evolves" with use.

It's funny when you think that we tend to believe that we teach rats to run mazes... when in all reality running mazes or better referred to as "navigating" or spacial mapping is what rats do completely naturally. In order to find food and water a pack of wild rats might range over many acres, perhaps farther to find food and water and shelter... they memorize countless hiding places and dig burrows along the way so they are always near shelter. 

When we look at our little fur babies we tend to forget that these animals are really rats down deep... They are intrepid explorers, fierce fighters an survive and thrive in a world where just about everything is bigger, faster and stronger than they are. Rita and her pups aren't brown rats, but she's built to survive too, it's going to be so interesting to find out what their special skills are and how they can adapt them to life among humans.


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## Kucero

I've been trying to figure out how well Rita can see. I've read about the way rats perceive with their vision compared to our own sight, and I still don't understand it completely. I know Rita can't see past six feet in normal lighting, not even simple movement, and despite what I've read about their superior night vision, I haven't had any reason to believe she can see better in dim light than she can in standard room lighting. I'm sure she can see better than WE can with limited light, but I don't believe her night vision affords her more information than lighted vision.

On a side note, these woodrats are one of the few wild animals that can see red light.

I know I keep going on and on about how much online research I've done in my efforts to learn everything I can about rats. I can't tell you how many links I've clicked on, but a Google search for anything rat-related on this computer would probably require navigation to the 20th page before an unused link could be found. Though they belong to the same order, there are vast and significant differences between pack rats and Norways. I haven't made a list, but it wouldn't surprise me to find more differences than similarities.

Rita was almost impossible to read, at first. If she wasn't sleeping, she was on Defcon 1, with no stages in between. As I've mentioned before, toward the beginning, she slept with her eyes open, then partially open, and now she shuts them completely. If she's not sleeping, her eyes are wide open, with one exception:









This is the only time she's registered a different facial expression. Her babies were just born...you can see one of them beneath her...and she squinted like this for the first couple of days. This was Rita at her most dangerous level. She doesn't have sleepy eyes upon waking up; she's on full alert in an eyeblink. She wasn't squinting because of the light, either; her eyes actually narrowed like this during feeding times, and both of us were tense. I never did put gloves on; I figured the foreign smell might stress her more. It's possible that squinting like this aided her vision in some way, but I don't think it's likely. I think this was a conscious effort on her part to let me know she was ready to throw down if I stepped out of line. She had no trouble communicating two messages to me: tread very softly, and stop taking pictures.

I have no real experience with fancy rats; I've never even touched one, or known anyone that had them as pets. Despite this, I can speak from a semi-educated (maybe pseudo-educated) position in describing some of the physical differences and tendencies between species. I also want to add that Rat Daddy has been instrumental in my education, and he is essentially what I was looking for when I first visited these boards. He invested large chunks of time exchanging messages with me, and my knowledge base was greatly enriched not only by the literal content of his messages, but also by the alternative research venues I pursued as a result of the questions I came up with while reading those messages. He made no pretense of claiming to be an authority on things he had limited knowledge of, which would have hindered my efforts and/or steered me in the wrong direction, and I wanted to recognize the huge part he played in helping me, just by sharing some of his experiences relevant to my situation, which was once a predicament, but has become an adventure.

Rita can't see things that are inches from her face, regardless of the light. She knows when I'm going to feed her when she hears her name followed by two clicks. She hears the sound of the latch disengaging. But she doesn't know my hand is in the cage until she smells the food. If she's upstairs, she's inside the hut, and waits for me to put my hand right by the door. If she's downstairs, though, she's developed a bad habit of running straight to the door, which I won't open until she backs up. It's very unlikely that I have ever seen her move at full speed, but I have seen her move so fast she was just a blur, and even if she's a respectable distance from the open door, I'm sure that if she decided to bolt, she'd be out before I could react. To her credit, though, after I say "Back up" a couple of times, she moves to the second level and waits for me to click twice before she comes back to the bottom level, where I'm prepared with a tasty morsel and a semi-blocked doorway.

Now this is where educated guessing comes into play, so before I go on, I want to be clear when I say I'm not trying to invite a "which rat is better" discussion. That said, I think Rita has more heightened senses when it comes to smell and whisker proprioceptor sensitivity than introduced species. Some of her mystacial whiskers (the whiskers on the sides of her face) are over three inches long, more than half her body length, and she can "hear" sounds with them. On average, Eastern woodrats survive three times as long as Norways in the wild. Rita is geared toward predator detection and flight. Her skin is loose to aid in preventing predators from getting a good hold on her. She's not a fighter, and while I'm sure she would put me in a world of hurt if she ever had a mind to bite me aggressively, I don't think she would stand a chance against a Norway or roof rat. The latter two rats are more streamlined and muscular, and probably have better fighting instincts than Rita does. I think this is a HUGE factor in explaining why she has not intentionally bitten me. I think it would take a lot more for her to cross the "fight or flight" line that all rats have than it would for introduced species, and I've often wondered how successful my attempts to earn her trust would be if she wasn't a woodrat. I'd like to claim that the combination of my patience and methods have been the only key element in how well our relationship is progressing, but I have to admit that a substantial portion of my success so far has been due to her temperament.


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## Kucero

That was a long post, and I didn't even get to write an update on how the twins are doing.

They will be 3 weeks old in two days, and that's when weaning begins. Rita finally moved them downstairs two days ago, and I haven't been able to clean the cage since. It's not too much of a problem, though, since she is naturally litter trained and still toileting the babies. I put a box over Rita's latrine area and stuck a block of oak in it so she could perch on that while she did her business into the box. Sometimes, she faces the wrong way and leaves her gifts on the outside of the box, but most of it goes where it's supposed to.









Toward the last few days, the view from the outside alternated between Rita leaving her hind end hanging out...









...or leaving the babies hanging out. These pictures were both taken three days ago.

Most of the time, when she heard the feeding call, Rita would yank the babies inside so she could stick her head out. The other times, she'd be lazy and just wait for me to bring the food to the doorway (which she widened even more since my original expansion of the entry with a razor knife). During those feedings, it was virtually impossible to avoid touching the babies, not that doing so bothered either her or them, but she never failed to clean them of the remnants of whatever food had come in contact with them. She's become so funny about refusing food; if I'm offering something she doesn't want at the moment, she'll take it and drop it outside of the hut immediately, but she'll still clean her babies. Not that I would ever do this, but I'm pretty sure she would even clean vinegar off their little bodies.

I bought a bag of cat toys, which was mostly plastic balls with jingle bells in them. There was one ball made of a thin piece of wood that was wrapped in circles...you can see it in the edge of the first picture in the update I posted on 9-22. I thought she'd like to chew in it, and she exceeded my expectations when she grabbed it and pulled it into the hut with her and the babies. Since it was cramped in there to begin with, the claiming of her new toy was immediately followed by squeaks of protest from the little ones.

Newborn woodrats immediately attach to a nipple when they're born, and they remain clamped on until they are weaned. Their front teeth are erupted at birth, and they stay attached to a teat even when they're sleeping. If mama moves, she drags them along with her unless she needs some alone time, in which case she'll turn in a circle and pull them off. Everything I've read says that a mother Eastern woodrat turns circles and pushes them off with her nose, but I've seen her exit the hut, sit down, open her jaws, grab a baby, and pull hard enough to make me wonder why her nipples aren't as long as her whiskers by now. Without fail, removing a baby from her undercarriage is accompanied by loud protests, every time.

She's eating more now than when they were smaller. I don't know whether this is because she requires more due to the kids wanting more from her, or if it's because she's not having to forage. I hope it's the former.

It's amusing to watch her interactions with them whenever there's any kind of activity. She steps on them (squeak!) when repositioning herself in the hut, and when she's doing some baby cleaning, she just grabs it and tosses it around so she can access whatever needs to be cleaned. The contrast between how roughly they're handled to how we coddle our young just tickles me. This same contrast is also demonstrated in how I handle them. They like being rubbed behind the ears or on the tailbone, and stroking their heads makes them start bruxing until they fall asleep.









This was taken two days ago.

Even though weaning doesn't take place (under normal circumstances) until the young are between 3 and 4 weeks old, the kids have separated from Rita of their own accord lately so they can explore their surroundings on the bottom level. Earlier today, I saw one of them holding a small piece of a corn chip Rita didn't finish and nibbling on it, which subtracted one of my worries about how I was going to introduce them to solid foods. It took two days of persistent effort to teach Rita how to use a water bottle (woodrats typically get their liquid requirements from dew, rain, and succulent vegetation), but I'm prepared with alternative means of keeping the babies hydrated if I have any similar problems teaching them.









This was taken yesterday. I've noticed differences between the two of them already. I've read that male fancy rats make better lap rats than females because of the females' tendency toward exploration. I'm not sure if this behavior parallels all the way back into their infancy, but the opposite holds true so far for the twins. The little girl pushes her nose into my hand to hide from the light and will go to sleep like that if she's left undisturbed, but her brother wants to look around and wander, although he has yet to travel more than two feet away from me. Both of them will lightly gnaw on a finger, but the he does it twice as often as she does. Both of them are startled by certain noises, and they don't necessarily have to be loud noises, but neither of them shy away from me.

It's too early to tell if I will ever be able to handle Rita. She won't eat anything that I haven't given her by hand, so she understands the connection between a full belly and proximity to me, but I did make a few attempts at touching her before the babies were born, and she didn't take to it. She doesn't know what it means...how could she? But even though I haven't made any effort toward touching her since she tripled the rat population in my household, there have been some changes in her behavior that I see as a positive sign.

I used to feed her small things (such as corn) one grain at a time. Now, I just put a small pile of it in my hand and let her take what she wants at her own pace; corn, uncooked rice or raw oats, etc. Once upon a time, she would maneuver around so she could reach everything with her mouth with as little contact as possible, but now she takes the direct approach and puts one or both of her front paws on my fingertips so she can reach. The first few times, I could actually feel slight trembling through her little hand, which might have been fear, or it might have been muscle strain, but whatever the reason, she doesn't tremble anymore. Sometimes, she'll take a mouthful and retreat to chew it, but most of the time, she just stays there with her paws on my hand while she grazes, and her little jaw sometimes rapidly rubs against my fingers while she's chewing.

Another change came about around the time she couldn't stick her head all the way out of the hut because her babies were in the way. Rather than pull them inside so she could reach with her mouth, she reached out with one paw to pull my finger closer so she could eat without having to reposition the babies. I took this behavior a step further after she moved to the bottom level when I dabbed a fingertip with peanut butter and held it very close to the "ceiling" of that level (which is the bottom of the board that serves as the floor for her "safe" area). She twisted this way and that to get all of the peanut butter she could reach while I held that position, then put a paw on top of my finger and pulled downward so she could get the rest. I think that as she gets more comfortable with that, she'll get more demanding. Next thing you know, she'll be using both paws, and things will progress until she's just ordering me around.

Getting stuff on video is difficult, but I'm working on making a new one featuring all three of them.

As kksrats mentioned a few posts ago, much has happened since this thread originated. I've come a long way, but I still have a long way to go to reach my goal, which is to give Rita freedom to roam, but provide a space she considers home that she'll always come back to. I still don't know enough, but I want to express my gratitude to Rat Daddy for sharing his knowledge, gotchea for sharing her experience with Wilder, and everyone who has given me encouragement and/or shown interest in staying updated on how Rita is dealing with her abrupt change in lifestyle.

To anyone who expressed an adamant opposition to keeping a wild animal in captivity, I might have been just as unyielding about my reasons for keeping her, but you still gave me another perspective to consider, which paved the way for some deep thinking about making the right choices and whether the path I'm taking will be better for her in the long run. I don't know how Rita would compare her current life vs. the pre-woodshop life. I wonder what her pro/con list would look like, if she could write one. I know she'd rather be free, but I also believe she is no longer scared, she is far from miserable, and she is cared for. As someone I trust told me, I'm in uncharted waters, and I'm playing this by ear, but there have been some extraordinary developments in these past couple of months. I still don't know enough, but I am open to suggestions from -anyone- who has them.


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## lovemyfurries

Fascinating to the end, a really enjoyable read. I love hearing about the progress, seeing the photos and learning along with you. It's an awesome journey you're on and I count myself privileged to be able to be a small part of it, if only by reading the updates and marveling at how amazing these little creatures are.


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## cccgina1

Always glad to read the updates. The babies are so cute!


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## Rat Daddy

Overall, my rats are free... they go outdoors and can range the house at will. Today we took the girls to the public dock... Max went up under the dashboard and Cloud came out to play She had a blast scurrying around the dock chasing us about and even met a couple of people along the way that gave her a nice skritch... Max stayed in the car until I practically dragged her out kicking and screaming at about 1:00 AM... she prefers to nest in the dash rather than play outdoors at night or even go inside her home sometimes... Max is a strange rat... I think she got dropped on her head one too many times as a pup sometimes. But in any case I don't think she or Cloud see their life as "captivity". They've both had plenty of opportunities to "escape" if they wanted to... Max actually runs away from us and straight back to the car or house. Her idea of escaping is escaping nature and going home. 

Rats aren't unique in this regard, my dogs always came home as did my pigeon and when I was a little kid, my mom "set my pet mouse free" and I found her under my bedroom window when I came home from school. Lots of animals will bond with humans and willingly cohabit with us. I'm thinking Rita might prefer a larger territory than her current cage, but that doesn't mean she would prefer life outdoors or on her own. But that is just speculation... we honestly don't know how wood rats think. This is one of the things Rita and her pups will either prove or disprove. One might argue that wood rats are solitary animals and will roam off to seek their fortune on their own, another guess might be that they might just build separate nests around your wood shop or divide the cage into territories.... Anyone's guess is as good as mine here.

Research on brown rat eyesight revealed that they have less pixels in their field of vision and despite having a greater depth of field than humans some author long ago likened fewer pixels to 20x400 eyesight... 20x400 eyesight is nearsightedness... I'm nearsighted. I can see things close to my face very clearly but at any distance I still have high resolution vision, it's just out of focus... so despite lots of pixels, it's a blur. Rats can have perfect focus, it's just that they see the picture like old newsprint photos. Yes small objects in the distance are going to be harder to identify. But something the size of a tree or a house is still going to be readily clear and in focus. So yes there's some similarity between low resolution vision and nearsightedness, but they are different things. 

My experience with brown rats is that their eyesight degrades as fast or faster than ours in the dark and works best in bright daylight. Rats have their whiskers, mapping ability and sense of smell to navigate in the dark, they don't need good night vision. Max doesn't like to get out of the car in the dark and Fuzzy Rat always went to the car around twilight. It's during the daytime that they need good or at least better vision for the eventualities they have to maneuver quickly out in the open during the day. Sure rats tend to rely on their other senses above eyesight and they prefer to move furtively during the dark or twilight hours, but day vision really does complete their sensory package rather than support their other senses. So if it's noon or midnight brown rats can navigate a very dangerous world.

Part of the problem with getting a good read on rat's vision is that they don't respond like humans, so we have to make inferences... Fuzzy Rat almost always responded to someone entering the room, unless she was napping. Max and Cloud on the other hand don't always respond... sometimes they just stand there hanging their heads off the edge of the furniture and stay perfectly still until I tap them on the head. It's like I'm invisible. Humans respond to almost every stimulus by moving or by doing something, sometimes rats respond to stimulus by not moving or by doing nothing. This makes it difficult to read what a rat is seeing or not seeing. Rita may very well see you moving around your workshop but just be giving you her null reaction until the food is close enough to her mouth to take from your hand. The best test of her vision was when she got away from you... did she run straight for cover or did she run into things while she was escaping? If she were blind you would expect for her to have made a very graceless exit, if she could see she would have gone straight to the exit. Shortsightedness would most likely have her running the wrong way at first, finding her bearings and then moving rapidly and with purpose. Again Rita is a wood rat, her vision may be completely unlike brown rats and brown rats can see into the UV range, but not into the red range. Which makes for a very curious difference right there.

Basically, there's some pretty good science that's been done on brown rats, but sometimes it gets shorthanded like when someone writes rats see in 20X400 vision... It's a nice analogy and it's what people remember, but it isn't exactly true. In some cases out of focus human high resolution vision may be very much better or worse then a rats low resolution vision. A low resolution newsprint photo of Manhattan taken from NJ is still way better than what I see without my glasses. But none of this might be relevant to wood rats at all. It all comes down to doing the various experiments that will tell us what we are really dealing with. There really is so much we can all learn here. 

I don't think any rat or any animal does well in "captivity", but most of our brown rats aren't in captivity and Wilder was never in captivity, they choose to live with us and share their lives with us, and for the most part they prefer to be with us than on their own... For all we know Rita and the pups, who live in a non rat proof wood shop are getting nightly visits from dad and the extended family to keep them company... There's so much we don't know and so much we have yet to learn... The most interesting part for me is yet to come.

As to brown rats being more fierce than wood rats, this is likely true and where brown rats go, other species often get wiped out. Brown rats can be aggressive and strong fighters, but they also work in packs which gives them one heck of an advantage. Black rats survive in places that are basically too hot for brown rats, but even with their superior eyesight and climbing skills they generally lose out in a brown rat invasion. Your observation that wood rats are more reserved than brown rats may not bode well for their survival in areas where they will have to compete with brown rats. It's going to be interesting to see how adaptable wood rats really are, it might give us some idea of what we can predict for their future success in a world of invasive species.

Kucero, it looks like you are doing a great job so far and I do love the pics...


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## Kucero

This isn't going to be a good update. I messed up bad.

Before Rita decided to triple my household's rat population without my permission, I used to bring her (read: I'd bring the entire cage with her in it) to wherever I was going to be for a while. She'd stress for 5-10 minutes after being moved, after which she'd be fine. After about 20 of these rodent withdrawal/deposit transactions, she wasn't showing any signs that she was any less stressed than she was after the first, so I decided to leave her in the house full time. I haven't moved her since she had the babies.

My bonding with the kids was smooth sailing since the first time I handled them. Even that first time, they were completely relaxed, and would take an occasional nap in my hand. As they matured, the little girl became progressively "twitchy," darting from this place to that object. Whenever I'd give her free roam on the bed, she would take a few steps away from me, sniff the air for half a minute, come back, and bury her face between my arm and the mattress.

Things started to go wrong when I came up with the bright idea to introduce the babies to the woodshop. They had never been outside before. So I took an empty 5-gallon bucket, dropped a clean sheet in it, added rats, and brought them with me to the woodshed, observing their reaction the whole way there. I took the boy out and held him for a bit while I rubbed him, and he didn't seem stressed, not even a little bit. I put him back in the bucket and took his sister out. Three seconds later, she suddenly jumped! Rather than allow her to plummet to the concrete floor, I caught her, which (as it turns out) was the worst thing I could have done. The next thing she did just broke my heart. She started screaming and didn't stop for about 20 seconds, during which time she was frantically trying to get away. She was completely terrified, so scared that she actually peed a couple of drops. Quite a feat, considering that she still can't relieve herself.

She eventually calmed down in my cupped hands, finally realizing that she wasn't going to be eaten, after all. I held her for a while like this, just quietly talking to her and giving her fingertip rubs, and then I put her back in the bucket and let her brother take a look at her so he'd know she was okay.

I took him out of the bucket one more time before going back to the house. He suddenly started struggling, which paved the way for screaming, and that's exactly what he did. I felt even worse than I did the first time.

I gave them back to mama and haven't touched them since. I'm still trying to make sense of what made them revert to wild while asking myself if I could have done anything differently to avoid what happened.


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## ksaxton

Well if anything I'm glad it isn't as bad as I was imagining! The entire read I was waiting for the worst to happen. Every rat has their limit before they become overwhelmed, so maybe this was too much for them? From my experience, rats will also freak out if you grab them suddenly and toughly and when they resist and can't escape it makes them panic even more. At least they weren't killed or lost, that's what I was thinking happened . Maybe With wild animals you just have to take it slow, two steps forward, one step back sort of thing?


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## ksaxton

*roughly


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## Kucero

Being overwhelmed is probably pretty close to the mark. They had never been outside, never been in the shop, weren't used to hearing outside noises, and all of that probably put them both on edge. The little boy shows a lot of curiosity, the girl has always been timid. I don't know where she was wanting to go, but I was afraid she'd hit the floor and get hurt. Of course she doesn't understand that.

I'll probably try again tonight, slowly, so I have plenty of time to read their cues. I hope they've forgiven me; feels like I betrayed them.


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## Rat Daddy

Every shoulder rat trainer will tell you that brown rats build stress... It's odd in that you take them somewhere and they seem fine, then they start to wind up and get more and more stressed out... At this point a true shoulder rat starts to calm itself down and relax and gets accustomed to the new situation while a normal rat works it's way into a frenzy and completely freaks out. Holding the rat quietly under your jacket will help it calm down or stay calm...

I have guessed this is a normal timer mechanism that rats have. In other words a rat can work up the courage to leave the safety of it's nest to explore or find food, but then the timer kicks in and at some point the rat scurries back to it's nest or safe hiding place. This keeps rats from exposing themselves to danger for too long a period of time.... So you will see a rat leave it's nest, eat or steal food then dart back for cover... rinse and repeat rather than just sit there on the counter eating your while pie.

It takes experience to actually see the stress build up, mostly it looks like the rat just panics out of the blue. I'm guessing the moment you took the pups out of the house you started the timer and you just happened to be holding them when the buzzer went off... Again these are not brown rats, but it's a working hypothesis. On the up side it's nice that you were able to calm the girl down... 

Don't beat yourself up over this "experiment"... unfortunately this is how you are going to lean about your rats. There's no manual, so you are going to have to screw up as you go. 

Lastly consider that true shoulder rats in total at any time compose a tiny fraction of a single percent of the domestic world brown rat population and to my knowledge there's only ever been one black true shoulder rat.... at least in the last 100 years... Therefore, I'm far from surprised that your wood rat pups might stress and panic at this stage of the game. This should improve with time, but every rat I've worked with that didn't become a good shoulder rat hit it's limits after which improvement was marginal at best, some actually got worse with age. When Fuzzy Rat was young she would suddenly bolt off into the bushes or shrubs and then calmly come back after about 45 minutes, for the most part I've always guessed she went exploring, she was always very clever about it, but it might have been triggered by her stress alarm. Then after she was able to do a reset and do a little exploring she came back all relaxed and confident again. As she got older and more confident she ran away less and less to the point it almost didn't happen anymore. She always liked to explore, but she would weeble away, rather than run. Amelia on the other hand hit the ground running anywhere other than the safe site, it got worse with age to the point she would start to pee on us the moment we walked into a store.

By the way, it's about time you were calling the pups by name, I may have missed it, but have you named them yet? Brown rats respond best to a single name they hear repeated over and over, preferably from a young age. Try to make the names distinctive sounding as brown rats don't entertain the possibility of two things having the same name very well. A name like Cher could be confused by you referring to other things as chair... The abundance of fuzzy things my daughter had eventually meant that 'Fuzzy' became 'Fuzzy Rat' to eliminate the confusion. Again this may not apply to wood rats, as wood rats may or may not even respond to their names, but it couldn't hurt just in case.

So relax dad, take a deep breath, lots of things are still going to go wrong as you lean more about your kids. Screwing up is normal for every new parent and in your case you're raising a different species... 

In shoulder rat training, we consider it a bad day if we come home one rat short... this leaves us with a really wide latitude for success. "Messed up bad" is almost always defined as ending in a rat funeral or a long fruitless search... And Alfred Nobel literally defined success by being able to blow up his lab...(not always encouraged in chemistry class). Every rat trainer has learned as much about their rats when things went sideways as he or she has learned when things went terrific. You still have three rats so you are doing just fine...


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## lovemyfurries

Don't start off like that again... I was on the edge my seat expecting the worst too, like ksaxton said. ! Like Rat daddy said at least she calmed down again in your hands. 

You must have had one **** of a shock though! Glad that all is ok, apart from the initial shock to all of you. You caught her, she screamed, but at least she didn't fall and break her neck on the concrete....or landed ok and run away. 

You're all fine! Nerves a bit shredded...but fine


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## Hey-Fay

My girls sometimes get into things they shouldn't, like when Mica found a small hole in the cover of my box fan and jumped into it while it was still on. I made a mad dash to grab her as the fan spit her out and she screamed when I caught her and tried her best get out of my grip.
It was pure panic that made her scream and on several other occasions the other three would do something that caused me to nab them and they would scream too.

It's instinct that kicks in, we're huge creatures that have swooped down and caught them up and for a brief instance they feel like prey and you the predator. It's important to hold them once caught and pet them while speaking softly. 
You haven't ruined the relationship between you and them; keep handling, speaking and offering treats. They'll soon see that you're not going to eat them and come around again.


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## Kucero

Thanks, y'all. I was sure that I had ruined our relationship, and I'm not normally the pessimistic type. I've been feeling a lot of guilt; I shouldn't have caused sensory overload in the first place, but at least I'm wiser now.

There's a "cute name" thread a few days old in which I posted names I was thinking about at the time, but I'll make it official here. One boy, one girl, and their names are Quad Rattus and Appa Rattus, or just Quad and Appa.

To my knowledge, Appa has never voluntarily separated from Rita's underside, but I've seen Quad roaming around on his own while the other two slept. He's always been the bolder of the two, which contributed to my overall surprise when he started screaming and struggling to get away. Appa leaked a few drops of fright pee (what's the approved term for this?) But Quad pulled out all the stops. He dropped a couple of pellets, and when his bladder came online, he went for high streaming. I mean, he really let go. It looked like someone had shot a small water gun, and yes, he nailed me with it.

There's too much activity around me right now for a proper update, but I still have PLENTY to write.


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## lovemyfurries

Ha ha  I just had a pic in my mind of a first time dad changing his babies nappy when the boy baby pees on him. The look of shock on his face. I know different in your case, but couldn't help tell you what came to mind. I love their names.


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## Hey-Fay

First off, I love the names! Second, don't worry yourself into sickness over it. They're young and curious and they had a moment of panic but they'll come 'round! They're still learning; from both mummy and you. The key is that you need to keep building their trust and confidence in you. Pet and handle them often, offer treats, talk to them; you could sit next to the cage and read a book softly to them, this way they get used to your voice and presence. This would benefit Rita as well and help build her trust in you more. 
One of the main goals is to get all three to trust you and perhaps later on get them to where you can free range them of sorts, right? There are many ways to build trust, you just need to find the right technique. All three will come around, just be patient and diligent. 
Looking forward to reading new updates; good luck!


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## Kucero

Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boyohboyohboyohboy...the twins are being weaned, and all **** has broken loose in the form of a triple ratstorm.

I don't have any new pics to post...been taking video, but I haven't had time to edit anything. There is one clip I'd like to show, but I don't want to put it up for public viewing on YouTube. It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen, and I can't do it justice by describing it, but I'll try anyway.

As I've mentioned, Rita becomes a little terror when it comes to crickets, or any bug, really. I wanted to try to get some of her cricket hunting recorded, for two reasons: it demonstrates how blind she is, and I'm hoping for feedback from rat parents letting me know if their ratties have similar problems, and maybe I'm warped, but it's entertaining to see her succeed. Holding a camera in one hand and feeding a cricket with the other just isn't the same, so I dropped a few crickets into the "penthouse" and started recording the carnage.

There wasn't much to record...crickets could pass within two inches of her and be gone while she was pinpointing the source of cricket body odor. She stuck her head and front paws outside of the blue hut and tracked two of them this way, but gave up and started retreating back inside when something must have spooked her, and she bolted out of the hut like a baseball that had just met Ted Williams's bat, and went through the hole leading to the lower levels as though she had been vacuumed in. When something happens so fast it's said to have taken place in the blink of an eye, this kind of speed is what's being referred to. What made it so funny was the sight of Rita using her nipples to yank the twins out of the hut, where they were probably sleeping, and seeing the one on the outside swing wide before being sucked down into the hole after her.

Any suggestions on where I can put this video besides YouTube?

Now for the weaning part. The twins are acting like they just woke up for the first time ever. They are all over the place, literally climbing the walls and traveling the perimeter of the cage vertically. When it's naptime, they still go back to mama, and the three of them sleep soundly, but when they're awake, Rita sometimes slaps them around a bit when they go for her undercarriage, especially Quad. Appa and Rita have mother/daughter naptimes while Quad makes a nuisance of himself doing his own packrat thing on the bottom level, but I've never seen Quad and Rita in the hut alone. I have always been amused at the way Rita moves things with her little paws, and now Quad is doing it, too. The best example of this is in the first video at the 14-15 second mark; she uses her nose to shove at an empty cigarette pack, pauses, then sidearms it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QFW1QVWbIc

Second vid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRdP11U7vY

I've been trying to make a third, but they're keeping me too busy!

Rita did something the other day that just baffled me. She had just woken up, and after I started talking to her, she removed the kids and left the hut. I thought she wanted some food, but she backed into the small space between the hut and the edge of the cage and froze like she was about to relieve herself. I actually said "Now what are you doing?" out loud, then saw the puddle. There was enough there to make me wonder whether she was abusing the water bottle. Rita has a designated latrine area, and I've never seen her to pee on anything other than the substrate on the bottom level, but I think I understand now that she was ready to start weaning, and this was a preparatory step. She had taken everything edible that she could find and put it in the spot that she had started construction on a swimming pool.

I haven't handled either of the twins since that terrible day, and now I'm wishing I had made a gentle attempt or two; they're both shying away from my hand, and I'm having trouble getting Appa to eat. Even Quad is uncertain, and I've successfully fed him by hand only a few times so far. I don't know whether to try handling them now, or wait until they're comfortable eating. My gut tells me that sooner is better, but my gut isn't any more experienced with rats than any of the rest of me is. Thoughts?

When they're in full tilt, it's hard to know what to watch, because all three seem to be in several places at once. There's Appa hanging by her feet from the hole leading to the penthouse. There's Rita with a paw in Quad's face, shoving him away. There's Appa being pulled the rest of the way through the hole by her mother. There's Quad climbing the bars of the penthouse...how did he get up there with the other two in the way? There's Appa deciding that the penthouse was better after all, there's Rita missing the litter box, there's Quad jumping off the bars to land right on top of his unsuspecting sister, and there's me leaving the house to work some more on the new cage I've been building, hoping the existing cage will still be intact when I return.

This new cage will be something special, but there might be a problem with the wire I purchased for it. The hardware cloth on the current cage has proven itself to be verminproof; Rita can't even scratch it. The new stuff I want to use is vinyl coated (which is why I got it), but it's quite a bit thinner than the current stuff, and I worry, so I'm putting it to the test. I made a small box, smeared some peanut butter inside it, covered it with the new stuff, and put it in front of a hungry Rita. That was before I started on this post. Time to see who won, and give Rita plenty of treats if the wire bested her.


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## Hey-Fay

I love these updates, they never fail to make me grin. I'm excited to see the new cage, I feel like a kid on christmas with these posts!


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## lovemyfurries

Hey-Fay said:


> I love these updates, they never fail to make me grin. I'm excited to see the new cage, I feel like a kid on christmas with these posts!


Me too


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## Rat Daddy

Every day the pups are getting more agile, there will come a point where they will be very hard to handle. More hands on now will likely make it easier to handle them later. That's my thinking...

Remember there's no reason to think that even an adult wild brown rat can't be tamed and socialized other than one... it's going to tear the living stuffing out of you while you are trying to bond with it... Rats are fast and they have sharp teeth so it's best to become fast friends before they can tear flesh or leap vast distances. Now that the pups are being weaned is the beat opportunity to bond with them you are likely to ever have. If you can't build your relationship now, odds will start going against you fast. Two weeks from now the pups are likely going to be too fast and agile to handle against their will and if they start biting, well lets just say the project is in jeopardy.

Yes, I realize that we don't know much about wood rats, but bonding young seems to be critical for all wild born brown and black rats, and it seems to be true for cats, dogs and even wolverines, tigers and bears. So I realize it's just a best guess, but lots of hands on strikes me as the way to go right now.


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## Kucero

Quad seems to be fully weaned now, but I have yet to see Appa eat anything. It shouldn't be long now, though. Even after pups are weaned, they stick around the nest for up to 70 days, so I figured it was time to introduce them to a bigger and better habitat.









Introducing the Vermin Villa 3000! It's larger than the old cage + penthouse combined, but surprisingly, weighs about the same. I'd like to claim that a lot of planning went into the construction of this cage, but the truth is I just made it up as I went along, with the exception of the vinyl-covered wire, which I purchased before I started.

Knowing that pine is bad, the structure is made entirely of Louisiana cypress. The lower level is a large removable tray for holding litter, and the lower panel on the outside comes off completely to allow easy removal of the litter tray, which is made from whiteboard for easy cleaning.









The center level is where feedings will take place. Older rodents might have a tendency to make a bid for freedom while the feeding door is open, so there is no floor immediately behind the door. On the other side is the large wheel that Rita never took to, but will hopefully be an activity the kids will enjoy. 
The hamster tubes were a donation. There are two paths that lead to the enclosed nesting capsule, and the only ways to get to it are either up the spiral thingy or up the rope. The PVC surrounding the top part of the rope is to aid the victorious climber into entering the tube, and also to prevent crafty little varmints from "cheating".

There are several hidey spots for sleeping, some that have been put in since these pics were taken. There is a "space pod" that I spotted on Amazon that fits nicely into the top level, along with four little drawers that were designed to go on a pegboard.

The doors on the front of the cage are held shut with sliding latches. I don't know what their original purpose was, but they hold doors shut nicely.

I'm gonna try transferring the three of them tonight to see how they like it, and after the old cage is empty, I'm going to put the blue hut in the new cage with steps leading up to it.


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## Hey-Fay

Wow!! You are one heck of a handyman; I am seriously impressed! They're going to love it! I think we'd all like to see a video or two of the trio in the new cage


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## lovemyfurries

WOW!!! That is so awesome! Have you by any chance seen Wallace & Grommit, curse of the were rabbit? LOVE THE NAME OF YOUR CAGE. reminds me of Wallace's invention. Brilliant Kucero we love it.  wish I could be there to see Rita Quad and Appa when they explore their new cage.


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## Kucero

I went ahead and uploaded the video I mentioned to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8epk5f_ABo

Thank you for the compliments on the cage! I've never seen Wallace and Gromit...but the name I picked seemed more appropriate than "Rat's Retreat" or somesuch.


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## lovemyfurries

Wahahahaha!!!! The video is hilarious. Poor Quad and Appa.


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## Kucero

It's hard to believe it's been only three days since my last update. So much has happened, both good and bad.

Quad is in what would be the mouse equivalent of the hopper phase. He actually "pops" when he moves. He has two speeds: teleport and sleep. He now enjoys the same full menu that Rita does.

Appa, on the other hand, was not in any hurry to let go of Rita's nips. Eastern woodrats wean their young between 3-4 weeks. A baby still nursing after the 3.5-week mark is rare.  When the fourth week gave way to the fifth, I figured the anomaly was due to being in captivity. To help spur things along, I separated Rita from the twins, intending to evaluate mother/daughter behavior for 24 hours.

I didn't make it very far, though. After returning from a trip to the store, I saw Quad on the wheel again (he really likes it) but Appa was nowhere in sight. She was gone. I couldn't see any way she could have escaped. Nothing was damaged, all the locks were secure, and Quad didn't look fat enough to have eaten her, which meant that Appa was let out. My 14-year-old son is scared of Rita, and won't put his hand in the same cage she's in. He saw the trial separation as an opportunity to pet the babies without fear, but Appa had enough fear for everybody, and she bolted. I stayed up all night trying to find her. I set several live-catch mouse traps and a couple of Havahart rat traps, but the peanut butter I used as bait is still untouched. Appa wasn't used to solid food, so of course the bait wouldn't do anything. I put Rita's cage on the floor, hoping mama's smell would attract the baby, but that didn't work, either. I haven't seen or hear any evidence that Appa is still in the house, and the thought of her outside scares me more than anything else, because she's a baby, and she won't make it by herself.

My child has done some dumb things, the most recent being when he set fire to our house in his attempts to burn a live wasp nest, but I can't remember being more upset with him than I am now. Each room in my house is now ratproof and has only one entry/exit, which is blocked by a gravity trap of my own . I used more than half my lumber stock doing that. And now, I can't think of anything else I can do, but I'm hoping someone has a good suggestion or two. I'll even take bad suggestions. Please.


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## gotchea

I'm so sorry


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## gotchea

Words can't express what I want to tell you. I'm just so sorry that happened.


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## kksrats

I really wish that I could offer some sort of easy solution for you. I know how stressful it can be losing a rat that likely can't fend for itself and is so terrified of humans that catching it by hand would be impossible at best. Perhaps set some of your gravity traps around mom's cage if you haven't done so already? I really hope that you're able to catch her


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## bloomington bob

I'm so sorry - it seems that you are doing everything you can possibly do to get Appa back - it's good to hear that Quad is doing well


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## Rat Daddy

There are generally two guesses that come to mind, first is that Appa is hunkered down somewhere in the house, my second guess is that your son might have left out some details of what happened and you don't know the whole story. Make sure to leave out some food and water and try and find out exactly what happened. I recently had some foreign contractors in the house, and amazingly no one was ever near anything that mysteriously broke on it's own or simply took it upon itself to evaporate and all of the work done wrong was always the fault of the guy who wasn't there and both my wife and daughter tend to leave out the really stupid part of any story... not knowing what happened might have you searching the wrong places.

As wood rats tend to burrow, I'd check the dressers, and closets and under stuff, there's usually a gap under kitchen sink cabinets rats can get into and they can tunnel up into plush furniture and box springs. Leave a few plastic bags on the floor so you will hear her crunching if she walks over them. Keep in mind wild rats are like ninjas the move between shadows and are generally silent by nature. Just because you don't see her doesn't mean she isn't there... also make sure by rat proofing you haven't built her into someplace she can't get out of or come back from.

If something else comes to mind, I'll let you know, but rats don't get lost and they usually don't run away from home, and your home is the only home Appa knows. Again, that's based on brown rats... 

Having lost a couple of rats in my time, one that came back after 5 months and one that didn't I know what you are going through... Try to keep calm, get all of the information you can as to what happened (so you aren't looking in the wrong place for example) and search methodically remember, rats are small and hide in small dark places and they can hunker down for quite some time.

Likely Appa can survive for about about a week on her own, longer if she can find food and water. I lost my part wild rat in a bedroom once, she turned up inside a box spring. She just slashed an opening and was sleeping right under me. She eventually got out of the bedroom and the next day when I called her she slunk out of an armchair, she had also tunneled her way into. Luckily she usually came when called, but otherwise she was silent, moved like a ghost between shadows and could evaporate into thin air. She was even smart enough to avoid the plastic bags my domestic rats trudge over. Try being very quiet when she's normally most active and listen for her movements... 

Lastly, if you leave food out, try and do it in some way that you can tell if some of it is missing, or eaten. Rats have a way of dragging bits of food off to their hiding places and nests, so if food goes missing Appa is the likely thief.

Best luck.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh my God, please let this little baby be safe and return her to her family. This is beyond tragic I'm so sorry this has happened. 

The up side I guess is yes she might be hiding somewhere in the house. I just don't have words. 

I couldn't find my one boy one morning and I had to leave to get my daughter to school, we'd searched everywhere and he always came when called by name. Fortunately I live in a flat so I had to lock up and go. As soon as I got back I went back to calling and searching. Somehow he had gotten into one of the cupboards second shelf and couldn't get down when I called him. I heard a faint little noise and found him sleeping in my hubbies shirt. Since he couldn't get out he made a bed and went to sleep.

I know that's not going to change your situation, but hopefully offer a bit of hope that she's there somewhere. You, Rita and Quad are the only family she's known. If she got really frightened she probably dashed to the nearest dark space and stayed very still. 

Please please let us know what happens. You must be distraught!


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## ksaxton

Wow it's been awhile since I checked in on this thread, every time I pop in a ton has happened. I love the new cage too btw. With unlimited materials and money I would love for you to build me a custom rat paradise. But I'm so sorry to hear about Appa! I hope she comes home soon  keep us updated


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## lovemyfurries

They were in the main house right? Access to kitchen? When one of my boys got spooked he climbed into the back of the fridge. Or behind the stove. In the grooves of the couch? Sometimes they can get right inside. Ugh...just thinking of ideas. Were Rita and the babies still in the same room but different cages when it happened? If so and you've rat proofed, you could try let Rita out and maybe they'll find one another. Make sure no one opens the door and then you could either try catch both of them or leave Rita's cage on the floor. I know that in itself is a risk as Rita hasn't had time to run around yet, but if the room is rat proofed and she's been eating out of your hand and trusted you with Quad and Appa, you stand a good chance of her not making a dash for it. I don't know! This is so wrong after all you've done, it's just breaking my heart. The really scary thing is the longer a scared rat is loose the more difficult to they are to catch. 

Please keep us updated. We're thinking of you.


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## annageckos

I know it won't help to catch her but to get an idea is she is still in the room try putting down some flour on the floor. Then if you see foot prints you know she is still around. Put some food and water in the middle of the flour, and try along the walls too. Good luck, I know how heartbreaking it can be to loose a rat. I had lost (actually it was my mom, long story.) my first rat outside at someone elses house. He was gone for a week in 100degree + weather. Then he showed up on the persons back porch. I wish you luck finding Appa.


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## Kucero

10-6
This probably won't be nearly as polished as I try to make most of my posts. I'm weary, I'm frustrated, and I still have no indication whether Appa is still in the house or not. She was dropped next to the couch and ran under it, and she might very well still be there.

I can't simply move the couch to see if I can find her. It's one of those U-shaped monstrosities that weighs more than an African Grey elephant. It's the Swiss Army knife of living room furniture. Recliner, fold-out bed, stuff I don't know the proper names for, etc. If she's somewhere in the couch, then I would put her at risk by moving any of it. So the couch has to stay where it is. I used a bunch of spindles to make a border around the bottom of the couch, "sealing" all of the spaces. When I was finished, the back of the couch was the only space still open. I left the sides open and put a couple of two-way traps I made on the only part of the floor she could use to travel "outside the couch".

Thank you all for the suggestions and well-wishes. She hasn't responded to peanut butter, so I'm not sure what type would lure her out. She had never eaten solid food before, which is what prompted the cage change in the first place. As far as I know, she has no concept of locating a water source. I have flour all over the place...thanks, Annageckos!

10-7
I was trying to update last night/this morning, but I kept nodding off. I noticed that Rita wasn't "pointing" at me like she usually does...she had her nose pointed off to the side. I moved her cage and turned it a little bit, after which her attention was focused on me, probably wondering why I'd do such a rude thing for no apparent reason, but she eventually started pointing in the same direction as before. I figured she must smell Appa, who was inside the bed part of the couch.

Long story short, I loosened a latch, Rita let herself out, she couldn't go underneath the couch because I had blocked it off, and she went all the way around to the back of the couch instead of looking for a way outside. So now I have two rats loose in my house, but at least that baby has something to eat. I don't have a plan for getting them back yet. I didn't think this through very well.

Meanwhile, Quad is in full pack rat mode. He's doing the same stuff Rita does with a messy cage, except twice as fast. Seriously, he looks like he's on foward-scan. His eyesight is much better than Rita's, but he is a jittery little thing.

Now I have to figure out how to get the other two back. I haven't seen Appa yet, but I'm sure she's alive, well, and only a couple of feet away from where I am. I'm glad she's okay, 'cause now I can let my child live, after all.


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## lovemyfurries

I want to laugh and cry! Hopefully Rita can find, reassure Appa and when she, Rita, is hungry she knows where you are. Keep her cage close by and maybe put some her favorites inside. If Appa attaches herself to Rita like she used to you only need to get one plus attachment into the cage. I'm sure after all this time Rita trusts you enough. Such a relief though that they're together. Thanks Lord. Will keep praying for the best outcome. Happy to hear Quad is content and happy since being weened. He'll look like he's in fast forward mode because they are so much faster at such a young age. Sure you and your son are majorly relieved that he can live...ha ha. You must be so exhausted!!

Waiting and trusting to hear even better news


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## Rat Daddy

I pretty much thought of letting Rita go after Appa too, but as I didn't have a part two of the plan either, I suppressed the suggestion. On the other hand, that's an example of rat communication, my rats point at where they want to go and what they want to show me so I can understand and take them...

Now I'm not entirely sure about the logic of keeping them under the couch... isn't that about the worst place they can be? It might actually be easier to recover them if they were roaming the room or going to their cage for food and treats. Just a thought.... Not necessarily a good one.

Around here we call what Quad is going through "hyper rat speed". It's rather fun and as rats get older you see it less and less, but even older rats can surprise you. 

I'm also not surprised that Quad is showing signs of having better vision than you have seen from Rita, he's less afraid of you and more likely to respond to what he sees by doing something other than staying still. Just like everyone else, I bought lock stock and barrel into the idea that rats were nearly blind... and then came Julius... Julius was more or less the happy drunk that hung out at the park, but Fuzzy Rat liked him. He would always try and sneak up on us from behind, but when he was anywhere from 50 to 100 feet away, Fuzzy Rat would get all excited to see him approaching and start bobbing up and down in anticipation of seeing her friend. She didn't do that for just anyone, just the people she knew and liked... Now smell might have had something to do with it, but the park was waterfront and the winds weren't always from his direction so at least in part it was visual as she would be looking and pointing right at him... Basically, it became clear that she could make out a certain individual human from a pretty fair distance. Way farther than I would have suspected having read how bad rat's eyesight was supposed to be. Maybe it was the way he moved, or the clothes he always wore, or maybe she could make out his face... that I can't say... but over an entire summer, she spotted him, usually before I did, every time. Mostly she didn't react to humans at a distance, so if it hadn't been for Julius, and his odd little game of trying to sneak up on our rat, I would never have known how good her eyesight really was. That's when I started looking into what rats can and can't see... and realized that low resolution doesn't necessarily mean bad vision. When I was a kid, I had a small black and white TV, and the reception wasn't always good, compared to modern hi-def big screens there were hardly any pixels at all and yet somehow I always knew who Captain Kirk was and who the Klingon was. I suspect my mind was filling in most of the gaps and I think rats may actually have to learn to do that too. In other words before a rat reacts differently to different people, or looks for differences between different people, it first of all needs to realize that there are different people in the first place before it starts trying to tell us apart... 

So... now you've got rats in your couch... did you ever think, in your wildest dreams you would ever find yourself here? I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been in similar situations. One fine day Max climbed up a thorny tree and curled up and went to sleep, and as it was getting dark, I heard a little boy ask his mom... "Mom, why is the man throwing pine cones at the little white animal in the tree?" It's moments like that that start to make you wonder just how far down a rabbit hole your rats can drag you. Yup, 40 acres and one tree covered in spines and somehow my rat found the singular tree my daughter couldn't climb and decided it was nap time... I'm not even going into the time I removed the wheel well from my car in a parking lot during a rain storm... that's another story for another day. "Why?" you ask. Because it was easier than taking off the fender of course.

I'm glad to hear your son is still alive... but he's only 14, so you shouldn't make too many promises you might not be able to keep, you've got a few years yet before he's completely safe.

Best luck.


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## Kucero

Thanks, Rat Daddy, it was actually your tips on communication that have made me "listen" and realize what Rita was doing.

So at this point, I still have two rats under the couch, and I finally pinpointed where Rita made their nest. It was on the very end, not the middle, which makes things easier, or so I thought. I figured they would stay in there while I turned that end of the couch over, but I was wrong. They simply moved two feet to the left, and now they're under the middle portion, with the bed.

I'm much better at catching rats in my shop than I am at catching them in the house. I actually bought one of those ultrasonic things that supposedly drive rodents away, hoping to flush them out that way, but the thing doesn't work. I tested it on Quad, but he just continued happily munching away on his treat and wasn't affected in the least. So I lost twelve bucks and learned a lesson.

I've been keeping food out, and they've been eating it. Rita isn't going to go back inside the cage, though, and she's too wise now to fall for any traps. Appa is benefiting from Rita's experience. I'm not sure what my next step will be, but I hope this doesn't end up like one of those children's movies that ends up with an entire house destroyed and a rodent that never did get caught, haha.


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## gotchea

Do you leave the food out on the floor or in the open cage?


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## lovemyfurries

Hey, I'm sorry you haven't got them yet but relieved you know where they are and that they are safe for now. Maybe one idea would be not to put food out for Rita so she can come to you if she is hungry? She's a very clever girl isn't she?


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## Rat Daddy

The number one problem with socializing wild rats is that they are so darn capable. They are fast and they can jump and they can bite which is why you have to start them out young. This would have worked so much better in your bathroom than your living room. And yes, Rita was telling you exactly where Appa was or rather exactly where she needed to go. 

Honestly, I had hoped that your rats could eventually free range in your home, but I thought it might be best if they were more socialized first. But your son's little twist on the experiment makes it even more interesting if not a whole world more complicated. I'm guessing your trying to coax the girls out and your wife is supporting your efforts in that special way wives do... 'nuff said.

Oddly, Rita and Appa are going to become more comfortable in your living room with time and come out on their own... that doesn't mean they will let you pick them up, but it's something that might be useful to know and consider. My rats are always hiding somewhere around the house and I'm quite used to it, my wife prefers it when they don't come out. My rats do go to their cage to eat, it's where the food dish is, even if they hate to be locked inside.... I don't know if that might be useful information. Maybe move the food closer to or even back into the cage. 

I suppose I've learned a whole lot about rats when things went wrong because things have gone wrong a lot. Keep in mind you are dealing with very intelligent animals that won't easily be outsmarted. Somehow I suppose the object of the exercise is to get them to want to come out? Will Rita still come to your hand for food?


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## Kucero

Rita won't come to me if she's not in her cage. Y'all should see my living room; it is in shambles. The couch is in four different pieces, cushions are everywhere, I might never find the coffee table again, but I did manage to get Appa back. She was not a happy pack rat...she tried to bite me and screamed a little, but I did the same thing as last time and "cocooned" her in my hands while I whispered to her. She stopped screaming and biting instantly, but she was still scared. Almost all of my efforts at socializing have been undone, but she's a lot bigger.

Rita was another matter. I managed to flush her out, but she's fast, especially now that she's not dragging two babies around anymore. She -almost- came right up to me from beneath the couch a couple of times, but changed her mind. I'm not sure where she is at the moment, but I'm sure she'll be back.

Even so, I'm going to put my living room back together anyway. I'm not married, but if I was, I think this whole adventure with wild rodents would probably have ended it.


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## lovemyfurries

Eeeee, sorry that's me screaming! I'm so glad you've got Appa back!!!  the fact that Rita almost came to you is a good sign. Be patient keep her best treats on hand and she might well come out knowing her bubs are safe and you mean no harm. I don't think all your work at socializing is undone otherwise Appa wouldn't have settled so quickly she would've/ could've bitten a lot worse had she wanted to. I am so thankful you have her back, give her a day to settle, but don't shy away from handling them now, otherwise it may be harder to re establish the contact again. 

Really hope Rita comes to her senses before too long. When I had a fostered rat who used to go out on free play in the lounge, I sometimes battled to get him back. He hated being picked up in the lounge, strangely enough if he was out the lounge and in the passage he wouldn't mind being picked up. He took quite a few months to tame and now when I pick him up in the lounge he doesn't squeak or object anymore.

I know that won't help you now but hopefully offer a bit of hope. What did help at the time was when we put his cage on the floor and he could go in when he wasn't feeling pressurized. 

Awaiting more good news


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## lovemyfurries

Another thing that helps when one of my boys get spooked and hide under something, is instead of trying to grab them I sit on the floor close by while doing something else, but talking to them quietly and calmly and having a treat handy. It's a trust thing. They will almost come out but the minute they feel like you're going to reach for them they run back under again. I learned by trial and error and lots of cold sore bums.


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## Kucero

I put the house back in (some semblance of) order, and got to work re-socializing Appa. She's always been the shy one, but she took food from my hand for the first time a couple of hours ago.

I waited and listened for any indication that Rita was back underneath the couch, but she never came back. That was a bit confusing; the fact that I caught her ten times in my woodshop indicates that Rita is not the type to leave a location once she's established it as a home.

To distract myself from wondering where she was, I went to the woodshop to finish a batch of pens. I'm an active member of the Freedom Pens Project, and I'm almost finished with 20 pens that will be given to our men and women serving overseas.

I didn't get very far when I suddenly realized why Rita never came back to the couch. The evidence was irrefutable when I saw her dash from beneath one of my workbenches with a blue shop towel in tow.

That's right. The varmint is back in my woodshop.


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## lovemyfurries

Ha! I got such goosebumps now!! So glad Appa ate from your hand and little momma Rita is back in 'her' wood shop. That is such good news  

I know you haven't got her back yet but you have got her back...does that make sense?? I'm soooo happy for you!


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## lovemyfurries

YAYAYAYAY!!!

Also awesome to hear about your freedom pens project. It's amazing. We even showed JP's dad your pens. They're amazing.


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## Kucero

Happy?? I'm back to square one! Mark my words, if I don't get her back soon, she's going to chew more wires, steal more stuff, gnaw at my tiered shelf supports, find another boyfriend, make poor decisions, and drop another pair of babies on me in 5-6 weeks.


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## lovelyemptiness

oh no... hoping for her sake and yours that she doesnt end up pregnant again.. other than that im very glad shes been located


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## lovemyfurries

Oh no! Not happy for for that reason just that you know where she is and if you caught her before you can do it again. Praying it will be soon, as in, before she gets up to too much nonsense and ends up pregnant again and damaging your goods!


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## Rat Daddy

First question that comes to mind... are you sure it's Rita in your workshop? Or has the word gotten out that life is good around your home? Free food, good accommodations, top notch maternity care etc?

I've got a standing on the chair screaming rat phobic wife... My wife likes to keep tasty foods near her for snacking, which of course attracts the rats. You would really think after years of living with the rats she would stop screaming and jumping on the furniture... On the up side the rats don't seem to get upset at all and almost look forward to all of the commotion they can cause by sneaking up on her.

Now, next useful bit of information regarding brown rats that hopefully applies to wood rats... Humans build up stress levels over time. Many become depressed or suffer from several varieties of "mental disorders" from too much stress over too long a period of time another typical stress condition is PTSD, but there are several by various names that exhibit differently, but are from the same cause. Rats also experience stress, they seem to have a stress alarm clock that starts when they leave their safe place that rings and makes them go back under cover... But for rats stress is short term... it goes back to zero after unwinding. So you can have an ugly incident like you did recovering Appa and a few hours she can be pretty much completely relaxed and normal again. Yes, a traumatic experience might freak you and me out for a lifetime, but rats just get over it in a few hours. Consider for a moment how useful this is... Today a rat might get chased by a fox, if it learns never to go back outside it will starve to death... so after a few hours, the stress level reduces and the rat is back out looking for food. If you or I went outside and got chased around by a lion, we might never do it again. 

Don't confuse this phenomenon with a rats ability to learn... Rats do learn from their mistakes and they can even learn from another rats mistakes. Fuzzy Rat always got her tail pinched, it's like she forgot she had one... car door, house door and she even had the very tip snipped off by the wheels of my office chair... Well her tail had a curious kink in it towards the end, but the tip thankfully grew back. But she never got her tail caught in the same place twice... As soon as the car door moved, she jumped back, and she kept back from door jams and scurried through without pausing and she never walked under my office chair again... She clearly could learn about danger and adapt on the spot, but it wasn't the kind of debilitating stress humans suffer.

So odds are that if Appa didn't actually get hurt in the capture, there may not have been any serious harm done... to the contrary, when she calmed down she realized she wasn't hurt and chalked the whole experience up in the win column. Which may have also been the reason you were able to trap Rita so many times. Go into the trap, get peanut butter, escape, rinse and repeat. 

The other day, I saw a pack rat nest on TV, it was not an eastern pack rat, but it may be similar. It seemed to be a pretty complex structure with many small spaces inside. I'm thinking pack rats might be instinctively driven to build these kinds of structures, like beavers build dams... You might want to consider giving Appa and Quad nest building materials so they can decorate their home. Brown rats aren't big nest builders. They dig burrows and plush them out with soft materials. Compared to the pack rat mansions I saw they are at best basement apartments. And if Appa and Quad are going to be driven to start construction soon, you might want to get ahead of their enterprise before their inability to do something they need to do starts affecting them... just a thought.

On the up side, you have two young rats now at the correct age for proper socialization. As you've learned, they will only get faster and more competent every day... the clock is ticking.

Last note, don't forget to put some iodine on the bites... Appa and Quad have been raised indoors and aren't likely to be carrying anything too gawd awful, but they were raised and groomed by a wild wood rat and if you feel sick get yourself checked out. I know it's super unlikely that you will have any problems but iodine is dirt cheap and always having a plan B and a plan C for things that almost never go wrong is part of training rats.


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## Kucero

I've never worn gloves around these rats, and none of them have ever broken the skin. Rita grazed it a tiny bit when she mistook me for a cricket, but it didn't draw blood, it was a few weeks ago, and I haven't started growing a tail or a desire to start packratting. I'll keep it in mind for future reference, though. If nothing else, I really should have iodine in the house to begin with.

Appa recovered remarkably fast. After that first feeding, she was more comfortable with the second, and now she actually comes to the edge of the cage in anticipation of being fed. She and Rita sit quietly and wait for whatever is coming. Quad starts out that way, but once he smells something he approves of, he goes berserk and hops from level to level, from one side of the cage to the other, running laps in random circuits. More than once, he's come skidding to a halt to avoid running into my hand.

They are now a month and three days old. They gain weight rapidly for the first three months, but won't be fully grown until about eight months. Their first molt will start soon, between 5 and 6 weeks. Not sure what that's gonna look like. The problem is that they are completely skittish. Appa just got back with me, so I'll describe Quad's behavior. He usually takes food pretty boldly, but sometimes, he'll sniff, retreat, sniff, retreat, sniff, and grab. He doesn't have a problem putting his front paws on my hand if I have a small pile of oats or corn in my palm, and I can even move a bit. But any attempt to touch him, and he squints his eyes nearly all the way shut and retreats.

A few days ago, I was persistently trying to pet him, despite his discomfort with it, and he would eventually turn belly up and let me stroke behind his ear. His eyes would usually close. Once, he tried to bite, and I quickly picked him up and cupped him in both hands, again stroking him with one finger while I talked softly to him. When I put him back in the cage, he didn't retreat; he actually turned around toward me and burrowed into my hands, then eventually fell asleep while I petted him. That was the last time I pet him, because he's in a bigger cage now, and I can't catch him unless I grab him again, which happened to work out last time, but I'm not sure if he favors the overall experience.

It is definitely Rita in my workshop again. I've long since cleaned her "stash" spot out, and that's where she's building again. I called to her a couple of times when I saw her out in the open. She stopped, sat back on her haunches, and sniffed in my direction for a moment before going about her business. The only time she didn't do this was when she was carrying a crushed aluminum can from my recycling bin, and was too busy to pay attention to me. And...she's already started gnawing on the shelving support post.

I've been providing all the kids with "packing material" for several weeks now. When the cage gets cleaned, I have a few spots that I fill with plastic caps, brass tubes, Q-tips, fabric that I cut into small pieces, and so on. Sometimes, I'll hide a treat in a piece of cellophane wrapper for them to find, but when all of that is done, I scatter a few cotton balls here and there. None of them have made anything resembling a structure; they seem to be content gathering everything in one place and throwing it here and there.

Rita seems to be done for the night. I don't see or hear her, so she's probably sleeping in her favorite forbidden spot (anywhere outside of a cage and in my workshop is forbidden). I still can't have her running loose in the shop, but we're okay for now. As long as she's sleeping, she's not getting pregnant.


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## sarah424

Oh good, I have silently been following this thread and I was so sad to hear Appa was lost. At least you got the baby back and you know where Rita is  I hope you can catch her soon!


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## Rat Daddy

There's a big difference between when your socialized rat take offense or rejects your attention and when an unsocialized rat does it. Your socialized rat knows you and hopefully likes you and is asking YOU for space or to be left alone and you might respect that.

An unsocialized rat is afraid of anything it doesn't know and is likely to run from or reject you because it doesn't know you are a friend. So when my rats show me the tail and blow me off, they know exactly what they are doing and I usually just let them scamper or weeble off...

In your case you are going to have to be a bit more persuasive. At this age your pups should already be comfortable on you and in your hands. It's about time you got them out of the cage and into a neutral space with some room and try to engage them in some play and other activities that will be useful and necessary to their safe handling going forward. I know you are going to feel uncomfortable and your rats are going to be frightened at first... but they have to get over it. When the pups are as agile and fast as Rita it's going to be even harder to build a solid bond.

Brown rats don't make good exhibit animals and I doubt wood rats will either. Rats need stimulation and adventure in their lives which means they have to get out of the cage... which means you have to be able to control them... It's going to be rough going at first, but if you can get through the rough spots it will be worth it in that Quad and Appa will get to live richer and more rewarding lives.

It goes without saying, that this really hasn't been done before and wood rats might not be capable of bonding with a human. But the pups are weened and are going to be growing like weeds now... time is going to start going against you fast and you don't want to wind up with look but don't touch animals.


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## Kucero

Whenever I take note of weird behavior that doesn't seem to have a reason behind it, I don't know whether there is an actual reason, or if it's simply a rat quirk, or if it's a quirk specific to these woodrats. For example, all three of them squint whenever they take food from my hand, unless they're eating from a pile of something in my palm. When it was just Rita, I figured it was because her vision is so poor, but the twins seem to have much better vision, so I've no idea why they squint like there's a water gun trained on them from behind whatever morsel they're about to snatch.

I was working pretty diligently on Quad when the girls were doing their thing, not picking him up, but petting him with a finger and offering something yummy afterward (which he never took). He'd squint, dodge me a couple of times, and eventually roll onto his side, clearly uncomfortable with being touched, but I figured it would get better and then he'd have a wealth of endless scritches. It didn't get better, though, it got worse, until the last time, when he gave me a warning bite. I pinned him with one hand, put the other hand beneath him, and picked him up. He didn't try biting again, and never made a sound. I gave him a good rubbing and watched his eyes getting heavy. He gave me some bruxing for about 15 seconds and fell asleep. I continued for a few minutes and then started to move to put him back. He awoke with a start, but didn't struggle until his feet were on the floor of the cage. He turned around and bulldozed my hands, which were blocking any attempts at escape. I was confused at first, but I realized he was trying to burrow under my hands and clearly wanting more petting.

In my first post, I claimed I could make cats and dogs melt in my lap. I think it's just because I love animals so much, and I'd be happy to add Quad to that list, but he didn't stay docile.

So today, or last night, rather, I was ready to begin the extra-insistent method of domestication, but since Appa had been back only a day, I finally took precautions. I used a T-shirt as a barrier between my skin and Appa's teeth, and was glad I did. She tried biting, but she didn't start screaming until her feet left the floor. It wasn't anything like the first time, when she was the very definition of terrror, but she was obviously afraid, and even though getting her to stop squealing was easy, trying to get her to relax was an exercise in futility. The best I could do was to get her into a "composed but alert" demeanor, and she refused treats afterward.

Then it was Quad's turn. He also tried to bite. Furthermore, he had heard his sister crying and didn't want to be left out. It took a long time to get rid of the barrier shirt, but when I did, he put his nose between my hand and my chest. After that, it took 30 seconds for his eyes (or at least the one eye I could see) to start closing. Less than a minute after that, he was asleep. Didn't even have time for bruxing. And once again, when I put him back, he turned around and demanded an encore, which I happily gave.

All three rats have their own specific way of letting me know they're hungry. Appa just approaches and stares at me. Rita does the same thing, but she also lifts one paw off the floor. Quad actually puts his nose between the wires. I love having hungry rats talk to me, even if it's only "Feed me!" so far.

I hope they don't start running from me every time I'm close by, hoping to avoid having another cuddle session. I'm hoping they'll catch on quick.

The biggest problem I'm trying to find my way around is that in order to grab one of the twins, they have to be in one of the Havahart-type traps. I won't catch either of them in a larger cage. They're too fast! I have plenty of traps, but I'm trying to figure out how to make a temporary cage that will hold both of them together, but easy to partition so I can take one of them without risking the other one getting loose.

Three months ago, I had never even -seen- a rat. And now, I'm about to start on my 6th rat cage.


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## Kucero

Rat Daddy...clear some space, please. You're at your private message limit!


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## Stefan

This was an amazing read! I wish you the best of luck Kucero!


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## Rat Daddy

Thanks, for the heads up, I've made some room, sometimes I don't notice and messages tend to pile up.

Remember, if immersion works with wood rats like it does with brown rats, you want to stretch out your sessions as long as possible... your fighting thousands of years of instinct here and the little ones are going to have to really overcome some pretty primal fear and get very used to you. I'm not sure trapping them might not be stressful... You really want them to come when called... keep using their names around them and try to associate verbal commands with your intentions and actions... 

Brown rats do communicate verbally, so understanding that humans use sounds to convey meaning is natural to them... I don't know if this holds true with the less social wood rats. It's apparently part of your experiment.

And yes, sadly it's going to be a little hard to overlook your little guys objections to being handled... no one really wants to stress their rats, but it's unfortunately necessary at this point. If Quad and Appa are going to have good lives, I'm afraid that they are going to have to get used to being handled and coming when called... That's a whole lot to ask from an animal from a species no one else has apparently ever socialized, but that's at the crux of what makes this experiment so very interesting.


As to squinting, it might be to better focus, or it might be to protect their eyes in preparation for being hurt. It might just be a preparatory fear or stress response. I suppose you would have to try and see when they do it and try to make the appropriate association.

Quad sleeping on you sounds promising. Brown rats cuddle together to express trust and for emotional support. Big group snuggles are where it's at for a happy pack of rats. I didn't so much expect it with the more solitary wood rats, but you take your wins where you find them.

You can't really assume that wood rats will respond like brown rats, but you can't assume that what you've read about wild wood rats is going to apply in a domestic situation either.


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## lovemyfurries

Well done on all the cage building, considering you hadn't seen a rat till recently! Any more Rita sightings? The fact that all three have their own unique way of telling you they're hungry goes again to prove how any rat, be it a fancy rat or a wood rat each has it's own distinct personality. Which basically means then... What works for one may not necessarily work for the other. A lot of this is going to have to be trial and error. Lots of patience too 

Thanks for all the updates. Don't always have time to answer in length but I always read them.


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## lovemyfurries

How's it going?? Anything new on Rita?


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## Kucero

I'm finished with the main part of the new cage. I was going for a dynamic design, and it's looking good so far.









There are eight panels, two feet wide and five feet high. They can be folded into a flat stack for portability or opened up into an octagonal shape, but for their intended purpose of spending time with the twins, they'll be in a simple square.









Rita has been keeping me company in the shop while I worked on this thing. She won't come all the way up to me, but she'll get pretty close, staring at me and sampling the air, raising a paw up if she smells food, going about her business if she doesn't.

I gave Appa a frozen precooked egg noodle, and she sat down and began to munch on it, when Quad lunged out of the the "space pod" where he was sleeping, snatched Appa's treat, and quickly retreated to devour it. Poor Appa gave me a look like "May I have one for myself now, please?"

Quad on the wheel has been the biggest surprise...not only does he like it, but he's using it in ways that just don't make any sense. He sometimes climbs on the wall, position himself with a foot, and use the other three limbs to run on the outside of the wheel. When he gets tired, he lets go of the wall, grabs the wheel, and comes to a stop upside down beneath it. Sometimes, he gets a running start, then does a "stop & clutch," and lets the weight of the wheel send him into a loop.

Appa is getting into it, too. If Quad is running full tilt, she taps the wheel, and he stops long enough for her to get in. I haven't figured out how they signal their looping trick, but one of them will jump high on the wheel while it's spinning, and the other grabs on and makes a loop or two. Once, I watched Appa get behind a running Quad, grab the outside of the wheel, and go sailing over the top.

Got some of it on video...I'll make one later.


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## Rat Daddy

It's interesting that Rita is still engaging you... it seems you did forge some form of relationship. And this is promising for Appa and Quad.

I'm thinking your rats have somehow back ended into inspiring your woodworking interests... who knows maybe there's a future in building custom rat cages? Just remember, big is great, but rats need small private spaces to feel really at home too.


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## lovemyfurries

So good to hear from you again, I was getting worried! Rita still around, love that she lifts her paw still when she smells some good food, gives you a bit of hope. She knows she had it good. I love how the new cage is coming on. And I laughed out loud at Quad and Appa's wheel antics


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## Kucero

The new cage wasn't intended to be a permanent domicile; it's a safeguard for when squirming and wriggling babies get loose. I've been handling them 2-3 times a day, and they've gotten loose many times. So here's the latest:

Rita is , once again, in custody. She had been loose in my shop, and I didn't mind while she filched some of my stuff, because I knew where to get it back, and I even tolerated her bad habit of chewing through the power cords on my machines and power tools. But when I went to the shop last night, I noticed two severed cords that were still plugged in. I would have worried that Rita had electrocuted herself if not for the sounds of my favorite pest gnawing (again) on one of the shelf supports. Can't have either of those happening, so I baited the same old trap with the same old peanut butter. The sounds of gnawing stopped when I set the trap in front of the entrance she was using. I backed up, and not even thirty seconds later, she just walked right into the trap as though she wanted to be caught.

Every time I have a session with the twins, it's been a chase & grab game, one that they don't particularly like to play. They bite hard enough to draw blood; their teeth are like little needles. The first day, both of them let loose with the bladders and bowels, and screamed like they were being skinned alive, but quieted down after a few gentle strokes on the head. The only other part I'm able to access is just behind the right ear; if I let go any more than that, they escape and/or bite some more.

Day 2 was pretty much like the first. Day 3, they were still biting, but panting instead of screaming, and they didn't wet themselves.

Today, I had a breakthrough with both of them. Appa is always the first one I catch, because she runs so much. This was no exception; I held her for a bit, petting her head and rubbing behind her ear, then I set her down in front of a live trap, where I planned to keep her while I handled Quad. She knew it was just a wire box, and just sat there in the entryway. I took this opportunity to give her a few strokes on her back, and after about 30 seconds, she turned and slowly bypassed my hand to avoid going inside the trap. Quad was even better; instead of grabbing him like I usually have to, he ran from the cage and found himself on top of my hand. I waited to see what he would do; he walked off my hand to the side of the cage, then climbed to the top and sat there. I spent a long time trying to get close to him, and when I figured he wouldn't run, I dabbed a raisin in some peanut butter and held it out to him. For a long time, he sniffed and sniffed, then finally took it and immediately dropped it through the top of the cage. I got another one, but he didn't take this one, so just to let him know what a brave boy he was, I left it on the edge of the top of the cage so it wouldn't fall, then backed off. Appa appeared from nowhere and scarfed it. I got another one, but instead of taking the raisin, he just licked the peanut butter off. I did this two more times, working with him while Appa hovered nearby, trying to figure out how to get the treat without getting too close to me.

Quad finally decided to climb down. I held my hand under him, and somehow, he fell right into my palm and froze. He was quivering as I took my hand away from the wall he was climbing, and he let his bladder go, but held his ground as I brought him back to the cage. He slowly walked inside and immediately went to the exercise wheel. I never thought I would be so pleased to have a hand glistening with rat pee.


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## sarah424

Awesome! Was wondering how Rita and the babies were getting along  Glad Rita is back with you and very excited about your progress with Quad & Appa! I want to see a video of them playing on the wheel, too, sounds hysterical lol!


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## lovemyfurries

Yay you have Rita back!! Happy also to hear about your progress with Quad and Appa. You really sound like you've been busy, but as soon as you have some pics or short video please share it. I love your last sentence


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## Hey-Fay

Oh wow, I missed quite a bit on vacation! Thrilled you've recovered both Appa and Rita and the progress you've made with them all!


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## Rat Daddy

I really can appreciate just how exciting this is. I was working with our first true shoulder rat Fuzzy Rat when I went on line to find some help in training her and I was told on another web site that there was no such thing as a true shoulder rat, that shoulder rats were only a myth and that Fuzzy Rat couldn't possibly exist. There were a few choice quotes that I won't repeat that folks had about someone who would claim they had a shoulder rat and would mislead innocent new rat owners into getting their rats killed... That day I sat on the park bench with Fuzzy Rat next to me and I tried to explain to her that she didn't exist... it didn't bother her much, so I followed her lead and kept going and doing things few people and rats had ever done before. It was actually rather exciting to be going where few rats had gone before. 

Every session you and your wood rats have really is new ground. Your writing the manual as you go. I realize this isn't the first trip to the moon, but it's rare in a human lifetime to be pretty much the first to do anything. And I think there are many readers here who are truly privileged to be able to join along on your adventure, myself included.

It's hard to measure progress without a yardstick, but it sounds like you are definitely making headway. Keep in mind with brown rats, progress is more in discreet steps rather than steady... One minute a rat is afraid of you and then suddenly it gets that you aren't a threat and it's behavior suddenly changes. Then one minute you are something big and different and then suddenly it gets that you are a friend and again everything changes. It looks sudden to us, but it's all about working your way from one step to another. Keep in mind that longer sessions are often better than shorter ones... When a rat sits down on you and lets you skritch it's belly or naps on you, this is the perfect time to settle in and reward the behavior and reinforce the bond to build the relationship... it's a horrible time to take the rat back to the cage and undermine your progress. The rat thinks it did something wrong and isn't going to do that again for a long time. 

In the days before immersion's long session approach folks often did short daily sessions that went something like this... They took the rat out of the cage, eventually it would bite them and they would return it to the cage... The very clever rat determined that the faster that it bites the human the faster it gets back into the cage, so it would bit faster and eventually not even give the human a chance to pick it up. Every session went faster and eventually there were no sessions at all. The at never learns that the human is a friend and there's a new listing on Craig's List that reads "Rat Free with Cage".

Every session has a tendency to start off at the point where the last one left off, well rather at the start of the lower step. So if you are teaching 6X8= to a human student and they have mastered 6X7= and the kid doesn't get 6X8= today, you basically start off with 6X7= again tomorrow. There's no way half way to understand 6X8= you either get it or you don't. Rats either are afraid of you or they aren't and they either get that you are a friend or they don't... I suppose there may be degrees to some extent, but they are very hard to quantify. If you find yourself making progress try and stick with it and reinforce it as long as you can. Remember a session that doesn't drive progress home is going to be repeated. And that ending a session at the wrong time can send the wrong message.

Yes, I realize this is based on my brown rat experience, so I can be completely wrong when it comes to how wood rats learn, so be sure to temper any advise I give you with appropriate skepticism. And respond to what you are seeing not just advise from me or anyone else. (Wood rats may not be able to tolerate long sessions.) I don't mind being wrong; being wrong is the first step to learning something new. And that's in part what we are all here for.

It does look like you are making progress. And chances are that Rita missed the good life you provided her. And Appa and Quad are starting to show signs of being more comfortable around you. The big question as to whether wood rats can really bond with humans remains to be answered. But so far I'm hopeful. We still have no reason to think they can't.

Keep up the great work and keep us posted and as always... best luck.


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## lovemyfurries

Haha...Rat Daddy I have to say ( blush blush ) some of your posts in the past left me with the feeling that you were possibly a bit of a hot head. Sorry. I too can admit when I am wrong and I don't mind, like you say if we can't ever admit we have things to learn we will never learn them. My own words. But yeah basically if people think they know it all and know one can teach them anything just based on what they know.... Well I'm sure you see where I'm going with that. I've known too many 'know-it-alls' 

The reason I'm writing it down here now for all to see is because I can admit when I'm wrong about someone whether in thought or not. Please forgive me thinking you're a know-it-all.

I really agree with your post, I like what you said and in fact I do say a very similar thing sometimes when someone is a new rat owner. You're going to get tons of advice from every well meaning person who's ever had a rat. But there is no one size fits all. You have to sift out what advice is good for you and your situation and take what is needed even though I'm sure it's all well meant. But... Every rat is different in temperament and every person is different not even to add circumstances to the equation. My best advice is ....thank everyone who dishes it out, take what works for you and always trust your gut instincts as well. ( assuming of course the person in question has good gut instincts  )

Kucero, all good

I'm sick, I'm on medication, so I may have repeated myself a few times. Sorry about that


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## Kucero

I'm still making progress with Quad. He still runs when I first reach into the cage, but once I have him between both hands, I can (ever so slowly, so I don't get peed on again) scoop him up and bring him in against my chest. If I try this open-handed, he'll wander off, but if I keep him covered, he seems content to be still.

Appa still bites, she still usually relieves herself, and she stays tense the whole time. But there is something else going on with her that is starting to scare me. When she first wakes up, she appears stiff and uncoordinated. She actually fell out of her bed the first time I noticed this, but I didn't become alarmed until this morning, when my son told me that she was moving "like an old man". By the time I got inside, she seemed fine, and when I opened the cage, she was lightning-fast, as usual. But this afternoon, she was fumbling about like she did when she was a week old. She didn't even try to flee when I picked her up. She didn't bite, she didn't wet herself, and she didn't even try to escape until after a few minutes, when fluidity returned to her limbs and I put her back in the cage. Her coat doesn't have the smooth sheen that Quad's does. Something is very wrong with my little girl, and the vet won't look at her because she's wild.


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## webspinnr

Oh no. Here's pulling for your little girl! I've never heard of anything like that.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear about your little Appa! That doesn't sound good. At first I thought very early onset arthritis, but I don't know. Maybe that's why her coat is not as sheen as Quad's because she can't always maneuver well enough to clean? Is she still eating ? 

**** the vets and their policies, is there no way one will see her if she was born in captivity? That doesn't make her completely qualify as wild does it? A vet needs to look at her.

Thinking of you and sending good vibes to little Appa! Praying too!


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## bloomington bob

Hoping that everything is OK with Appa


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## Kucero

Darlene Watts runs a rat rescue only a few miles from where I live. She took a look at Appa tonight and believes that whatever it is, its neurological. She said there's no reason to believe it's not treatable, and might be able to talk to the vet she uses for her rats tomorrow.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh good, so glad she looked at Appa for you. Hope the vet will be able to give you something for her. Wishing you all the best. It's so sad because she's such a baby still. Keep us posted.


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## Kucero

I never did receive anything further about Appa's condition, but whatever it was, she seems to have recovered from it. She's still faster, stronger, and more likely to bite than Quad, but doesn't seem to have any problems with coordination at any time anymore.

Unfortunately, my progress with them seems to have leveled off. None of the recent sessions show any progress. They are still calm once they're caught, and even get droopy-eyed after a few minutes. They released gently and given treats immediately following being handled, but they still avoid capture as though failure means being thrown into a stew pot.


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## lovemyfurries

So glad to hear that Appa doesn't seem to be showing any of those systems anymore. I wouldn't worry too much about them 'avoiding' capture. Some rats just don't like to be picked up and taken out of their cage, but once out they're fine. Maybe they fall into that category. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. No mention of Rita in a long time, how is she? Are they all together in the same cage?


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## Kucero

I did have them in the same cage, but Rita didn't seem to want to interact with the babes, so I made a new cage (#7!) for her, and we've settled back into our old routine.

I made a new video; I still need to make one dedicated to wheel activity, but a baby vid needed to be done, also, so here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s-YeXtAN7w

Here are the first three, all in one place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QFW1QVWbIc
(Rita's introduction)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRdP11U7vY
(How to clean a cage with a wild rat still occupying it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8epk5f_ABo
(Rita "pulls" an unusual and painful-looking trick)


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## cccgina1

Omg that baby video is so cute!


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## Hey-Fay

So good to know everyone's doing good! I do love these updates!


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## lovemyfurries

Hey... Such an awesome video of the babies  . I can't believe you've built so many cages already!! So now you've gone from never having seen a rat like you said to having 3 one on her own and well....let's see what happens when the babies get older whether they continue living together.


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## bloomington bob

What a sweet video!


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## sarah424

I love catching up with Rita and her babies  Awesome to see everyone doing so well!


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## Kucero

I haven't picked either of them up in days. I changed tactics after I was certain I wasn't making any further progress toward domesticating them using the old method. I never caught them in the cage; they're too fast. The only way I could catch them was to let them run out of the cage into the 4x4 enclosure I shared with them during these sessions, and wait for them to run in a straight line (usually up the wall). Even though they had stopped squealing and soiling themselves, they were still terrified over being chased and grabbed, and despite giving the appearance of enjoying the subsequent "calm the ---- down" treatment, whatever pleasure they got from it was far outweighed by the process by which they got to that point in the first place.

I'm using the same method that worked for Rita; they get fed and watered by hand. The difference in the twins' reaction to this change has presented a new set of problems. Quad took to it immediately and has progressed a few steps:

1. At first, he approached the food nervously, and once a bite of the offering was taken, he'd scamper off to a corner to eat it before making the second trip. Wash, rinse, repeat.

2. The next day, he became a little more confident around feeding time, and wouldn't run off after grabbing something, choosing to eat right where he was.

3. Later that same day, he was putting his front paws on my hand to reach his supper. He was also trying to get out of the cage of his own volition.

4. He got his food while I supported his weight completely.

5. He was allowed to leave the cage to explore; I didn't attempt to feed him while he was out of the cage.

6. This morning, he took a couple of bites while he wasn't in the cage. All three of these woodrats feel much safer in the cage. Once outside, they know they are more vulnerable without walls to protect them, and this realization makes them very nervous. This was a significant step; I've never even managed to feed Rita outside of the cage.

The problem is that Appa is still stuck between 1 and 2, and Quad is actually compounding the problem. Because he's so much more at ease around me than she is, he often shoves her out of the way. She doesn't like it, being upset makes her nervous, and Quad doesn't share. I didn't often have the luxury of time to wait for her to come around because Quad kept making a pest of himself trying to get out of the cage while she was building up her courage, and every time I'd move to prevent his sneaky attempts at escape, Appa would run back to a safe spot. This behavior is what made me finally give up and allow him to leave the cage, so I could feed Appa while he was doing his own rodent thing.

Quad has also developed a bad habit of hoarding food, and I'm trying to change that. I held a small pile of sunflower seeds and offered it to him while he stood on top of the cage; this was the first thing he took from me while he was outside. He wasn't content with one sunflower seed, though; I watched bemusedly as he took a second kernel without eating the first one, then a third, and was struggling to get a fourth into his mouth. He's trying to be a hamster.

Rita has no problem eating, and she gets all she wants. The twins have the large wheel in their cage, but I ordered a new one for Rita, which should arrive tomorrow.

I haven't taken many pictures lately, but I'm piecing another video together, dedicated to wild rodents and their interpretation of how an exercise wheel should be used.

Rat Daddy speculated that my dealings with these rats has back ended into my woodworking, and he is absolutely right. I gave myself a pat on the back for making an eight-panel accordion-style enclosure. The novelty of its collapsibility made me wonder if I could do the same with an actual cage. What I have so far is simply a prototype, but I'm still going to refer to it as Cage #8 until I can make something worthy of having its own name.









I've noticed the popularity of Critter Nation cages, so I used its measurements for reference.

A quick side note: when I compared the single and double Critter Nation cages, I noticed that the single cage measured 39" high, and the double cage measured 63" high, yet looking at the images the cages are the same size. The 39" height they give for the single cage is deceptive, because this measurement includes the legs and casters. There's only 24" height of actual living space.

The INSIDE dimensions of this prototype are 34x24x24. Up to this point, the cages I've built were just boxes with small doors here and there.









I made a cage earlier this month that I called the "Vermin Villa 3000," which had a removable litter tray. I've included that feature in the prototype, with enhancements. Plexiglass is kinda expensive, so I didn't put any on this model, but I plan to put a plexiglass "blast shield" around the perimeter of the tray to prevent stuff in the cage from getting flung outside. I can also hinge the front of the tray for easier cleaning, or "hardwire" the litter tray to the body of the actual cage, since the entire floor can be opened from the front because it's hinged at the back. And finally, I reiterate that this is a prototype; obviously, the real thing won't have holes in the litter tray.









The "roof" opens from the front much like the floor does, with the obvious difference in that the ceiling is raised while the floor is lowered. It is held shut by rare earth magnets on either side, and the magnets I used for this are actually too strong. The front doors open up all the way on piano hinges, and are kept from swinging inward by small metal plates attached to the inside of the door frame. These plates also attract the magnets in the doors, keeping them shut.









Here's where it starts to get fun; it wasn't enough to make a collapsible cage; I wanted something that could be fully assembled in seconds, without needing ANY tools or hardware. Magnets hold the top and bottom closed, and I used window sash locks for holding the sides together.









Fully collapsed, the cage is compressed to less than 4". Assembly isn't a "put it together" process; it's simply a matter of swinging each panel against the hinge that supports it, engaging two sash locks to keep the sides secure, and two more to keep the bottom from dropping.

I don't know if there's a market for this. I've never seen anything like it, but that doesn't make it useful. If I received a check in the amount of our current minimum wage for each hour that I spent on planning, experimenting, and actual labor, I'd have enough for a couple of payments on a 2015 Corvette Z06, and I'm not finished with it yet. I'm working on the next feature: shelves. Not static shelves, though...they have to be fully adjustable. This means that not only can the height be changed, but so can the actual shape of the shelves.

Having never owned a REAL pet rat before, I'd greatly appreciate any (including "nice to have" and "need to have") features I've missed pointed out!


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## lovemyfurries

I'm totally speechless, I can't think of any 'nice to have ' and 'need to haves' at this point . Wow!


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## cccgina1

You're not married? How is that possible?? Lol


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## Hey-Fay

Again I'm both impressed and envious of your skills. If you taught a class I'd sign up. My girls like tunnels, I'm planning to attach large pvc pipes to the walls of the rat room eventually. You could do a small scale version around the cage, make it so that they could climb the tunnels to levels or even make a bottom (or top) level full of nesting material with the only in and out way be a tunnel; think of an enclosed ball pit for mental reference.


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## Rat Daddy

There are only two major concerns with a wood cage, first that the finish is non toxic and second that the rats can't sink their teeth into the wood. I have a great cage that had a plastic components, it took a couple of years and several rats until one found a place to sink her teeth into, a couple of days later, there was a hole through and a wandering rat. I rebuilt the missing section of the cage with aluminum flashing and it worked a treat. 

Although many rats don't chew their cages, sooner or later you find one that will... if a rat can bite it they can tear through it... They don't much like going through glass or metal, and if they can't get their teeth into the surface it's safe. Otherwise sooner or later you'll be dealing with issues.

On the other hand I paid about $100.00 for a cage that my rat tunneled through in just a few hours once she set her mind to it...


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## gotchea

cccgina1 said:


> You're not married? How is that possible?? Lol


 hahhaha. I think that's the best comment I've ever read on this forum. You get a thumbs up from me!


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## Kucero

Lovemyfurries, I think "totally speechless" is just as good a compliment as any that you could have found words for. Thank you.

Gina, I suspect women are put off when they notice that I have so much dandruff that it's all over my body. But it's not what they think...it's just sawdust.

Fay, it's kinda funny that you mention classes. I had been intending to begin making instructional videos, but kept procrastinating because I know nothing about video editing. Along comes a rat, and now I've posted a few edited videos...about rats. I love the tunnel idea; I had a length of rope running through a vertical piece of PVC in the VV3000, but they weren't used. I fill the "secret" stashes with packrat junk when I clean the cage, and one of these days, I'll remember to record it when I see one of them digging through the treasures and taking off with a prize. The most likely problem I can think of with a "restricted access" hoard of nesting materials is the considerable possibility that the intended recipient, rather than make all those trips back and forth with nesting material, will simply nest where the materials are. Regardless, I'd probably have a blast making it, anyway.

RD, thus far, my rats have spent a lot of time gnawing the green vinyl off the mesh, but they haven't touched the wood. If I cover the inside area with wall-to-wall mesh, chewing should never be a problem. Rita in particular is fond of chewing plexiglass, which is what I planned to use for the "blast shields" around the litter box. I have a bit of glasswork experience and could make the shield from glass instead, but I worry about the weight. I haven't given a lot of thought to ratproofing the cage just yet; been busy trying to make a working model first before making one that's consumer-worthy. I'm a better ironworker than woodworker, and using steel to copy the prototype would definitely solve the chewing problem.

I think that for a cage this size, legs are a "need to have," but I have my doubts about the casters being a necessity.

Quad was being an exceptional pest earlier tonight, but I'll save that for another post. He spent maybe 30-40 minutes in the enclosure with me getting into everything while I was trying to feed his gunshy sister, and I had plenty of time to observe him. I've read a lot of nightmare stories about male rats just peeing everywhere. When does that type of behavior usually start? I want to know how long I have before I start putting Quad in diapers.


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## lovemyfurries

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Firstly a pleasure  

Love the dandruff/sawdust 

You would definitely be able to do the videos based on what we've seen, not only of your actual handiwork but how you put your videos together. I've seen some scary stuff in the 'how to' section on YouTube !

Quad in nappies/ diapers  heck if only...we have one boy who is an 'old man' already and we'd love to put him in them too, we've often had a laugh about it. 

I know have two 4 week old girls, separate to the boys, and oh my goodness. Their little paws and mouths are everywhere. They chew my hair try to lick inside my nose, inside my mouth, my eyelashes inside my ears... Too precious for words.

Actually don't have time to be doing this now, about to go fetch hubby at airport. But it couldn't wait!


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## Rat Daddy

I pretty much predicted that the vinyl coated mesh would become an issue. I was hoping I was wrong. As to plexi, you will be reasonably safe if the rats can't find an edge to start chewing on. Glass would be more durable, but sheet metal is you safest bet, roll the edge to prevent cuts. So far aluminum flashing is working better than I expected. It's soft but rats don't seem to like to chew on it.

As to scent marking, about every mammal that either protects a territory, entices mates or explores and leaves a trail scent marks. I'd say when Quad gets to that stage of life, he'll start. I suspect it would be when he starts nest building, I'd also be concerned about him becoming reproductively mature around the same time. But again, it's just a guess and not something to set your watch by. 

The advantage and likely profit in custom cages is that they can be produced to custom dimensions. So one person can order a cage for a large colony while someone with an odd space can utilize it better, as in a tall cage for someone that lacks floor space. For shipping it has to disassemble and reassemble easily. I'm thinking a panel system you can assemble on a jig would be the most practical approach. Just a thought.


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## Kucero

Can't believe it's already been a week since I changed tactics. There's enough significant change for an update.

Bad news first; Appa's "condition" is back, and it seems Quad has it, too. But now, I don't think it's anything to be alarmed over. I noticed that it lasts for only a few seconds, and it's more likely to happen if they are awakened suddenly. The symptoms are identical to myotonia congenita, the genetic disorder most commonly found in "fainting goats." If you haven't heard of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_goat

And a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

Unlike the people in the video, I never scare my lambs intentionally.

The good news is that both of them have made progress. Appa continues to approach feeding times with trepidation, doing her species credit by stomping that back foot whenever she's nervous, but she will put both of her front paws on my hand to reach a pile of corn, oats, sunflower seeds, or whatever, and she will usually stay that way in between bites instead of scampering off to chew and coming back for more. Continuing the trend, Quad is the opposite; he plasters himself against the front of the cage and immediately scoots out of the door I open up to feed them, usually ignoring the tidbits. Two days ago, he was crawling all the way into my hand so that I was supporting his entire weight while he grazed as long as my hand was inside the cage. He's much more confident outside of the cage, though, preferring to climb to the top of the cage to be fed. The most significant step he's taken so far is allowing me to support his entire weight outside of the cage and (very nervously) wait while I lower him back to the open door so he can get his adventurous self back inside. There hasn't been any petting or similar shows of affection lately, but neither has there been any chasing and grabbing, either.

Incidentally, they are two months old today.

I made a new cage (#9) for Rita when the new exercise wheel arrived. She hasn't used the wheel even once, but she's been busy with the other stuff I put in there. Her new cage is separated into two levels; the only way to the upper level is through a twisty tunnel I made with thick cardboard tubes. At the end of the tunnel is a rat maze with three floors. Aside from the entrance/exit tunnel, the maze has three destination areas: the feeding spot, a nice spot for sleeping that is almost completely enclosed, and at the center of the top level is an open area in which she finds nesting materials, toys, shiny objects...basic pack rat treasures. It didn't take her long to memorize the paths; she can go from any point to any point in seconds, even though I underestimated her size and made some of the turns a little too tight. She's managed pretty well, though.


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## Hey-Fay

It doesn't feel like two months! Man, time sure flies. What will you do with Quad when they reach sexual maturity?


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## bloomington bob

Nice to see an update about Rita and family - I do know about the fainting goats - I once had a nice conversation with someone who owned one


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## tiquanunderwood

This has been an amazing read! So happy to read about all the progress. Please continue with the updates! I'm so anxious I don't know if I can wait another week for one


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## Kucero

I still have another ten months before Quad starts getting that gleam in his eye, so the twins will be safe together for a while yet.

I just uploaded video #5. This time, I played around with sound editing. Appa tried to get Quad to share part of his supper, and after being rejected a few times, she got frustrated and attacked! They didn't hurt each other at all, as far as I could tell; it was a flurry of body throws and feet to the face. The coveted item (a bean) was abandoned during the skirmish, but Quad reclaimed it, sat down, and started thrashing his tail around like I've never seen before or since: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5r7Wlw3Fm0

On a side note, being as this is my fifth video ever, I obviously have a long way to go before I'm proficient at making these, but I don't understand the reason some people are disliking them. I've had a FaceBook account for a few years now, but I've never been into begging for "likes" for anything. "Like my pics!" "Like my posts!" I'm not bashing those who try to get as many "likes" as possible, it's just not something I find useful for myself.

But I don't get why I'm getting "thumbs down" on every video I've posted. The only vote I have for the baby video is a "don't like". Someone went out of their way to express their disapproval of the babies. They are the epitome of delightful cuteness, and sweet enough to cause cavities. How could anyone NOT like them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QFW1QVWbIc (Rita's introduction)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRdP11U7vY (How to clean a cage with a wild rat still occupying it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8epk5f_ABo (Rita "pulls" an unusual and painful-looking trick)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s-YeXtAN7w (Baby video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5r7Wlw3Fm0 (Sibling rivalry)


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## bloomington bob

Another excellent video - I really look forward to these and all your posts!


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## lovemyfurries

I love your videos I can't understand why anyone would put a thumbs down!! That's weird! I'm glad nothing to worry about the condition that Quad and Appa have. Awesome how they've adapted to the feeding and that Quad allows you to lower him back into the cage without trying to jump off or anything. It's hard to believe they are two months already. Thanks again for the update.


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## Hey-Fay

Kucero said:


> I still have another ten months before Quad starts getting that gleam in his eye, so the twins will be safe together


Oh! For some reason I was thinking they reached maturity at three weeks, not sure where i got that from!


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## Kucero

Quad made a HUGE step yesterday...right outside of my enclosure and straight underneath the couch. I guess since Rita and Appa both had a leave of absence for a while, it was his turn. I made the enclosure to be both flexible and versatile, and after being moved several times a day for weeks, a knot in the wood at the bottom of one of the panels worked itself loose. I didn't notice it, but Quad did. My attention was focused on Appa when I saw Quad on the wrong side of the enclosure. If it had been Appa, or even Rita, the mode of travel would have changed from a casual stroll to quick, furtive bursts of movement indicating all self preservation instincts in overdrive. But no, after sauntering through the new escape hatch and figuring out that the couch was on the other side of the enclosure, the little vermin just nonchalantly made his way to the other side, his manner calm and his pace steady as I watched in helpless disbelief. I couldn't even try to open the enclosure to catch him; Appa was halfway on my hand with a mouthful of sunflower seeds. I didn't want to scare her, and I didn't want to scare him. I wanted to strangle him, but I'd have done so in the most loving way possible.

Several hours later, the same vermin that was letting me carry him back to the cage after eating is too scared to come out. I've set live traps out, baited with his favorites, and he won't go near them. With all sincerity, I am absolutely amazed at how deep their natural instincts are rooted. Being trapshy at 2 months old is one of many impressive things I've noticed about them.

But I really wish they'd hide someplace else. I just put everything back in order like it was before I tore up the living room getting Appa back, and it looks like I get to do it all over again, yay! I can't let him stay out as long as Appa did, because these woodrats revert to wild VERY quickly.

I posted Video #5.5. It's part of the same bean fight I had posted earlier, but devoid of music and Mortal Kombat sounds of Sonya and Liu Kang kicking and throwing. Combat squeaking is too funny to not share with everyone still keeping up with this adventure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boLvS1KU33Y


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## Kucero

I went out of town Saturday night; it was the first night I left the rats unattended. I put healthy doses of a few different food types in the cage for Appa and Rita. Quad is still loose, making nests under my couch. There are five traps baited with his favorites, but he has yet to touch any of them. I doubted Quad was starving, but I worried anyway, and dropped a small pile of oats on the floor a couple of inches from the couch, so he would have something to eat that didn't look suspicious. When I came back home Sunday afternoon, I noticed that Rita and Appa had cleared their plates (so to speak), but the traps were still untouched, as was the pile of oats.

The first thing I did was settle down to feed the girls. I was in the middle of their first course (green beans) when I saw Quad dart out from under the couch about four feet away from me. He stared for a moment, then darted back underneath. Since Quad is the only one of the three to eat from my hand while outside the boundaries of the cage (but still within the enclosure), I wondered if he might be brave (and hungry) enough to actually approach me to eat. And he was. He remembered the "get over here and eat this" noise I make for all of them, and it only took 20 seconds from the time I called to the time he grabbed the first bite. Unfortunately, his meal was cut short by the sounds of my shop cat Agilarr self feeding from a bag of dry food he knocked off the table.

I abandoned my plans to snag him and put him back in the cage, at least, for the time being. I'm going to see if he'll do it again. It might be a while, though, because the pile of oats is no more.


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## Rat Daddy

I'm just a little bit confused... do you have a cat roaming about in the same room as Quad? Or even in the same room you are trying to train your rats?


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## Rat Daddy

Now, assuming the cat (giant feline predator) isn't around, I'd try treating the situation outside the cage the same way you would treat Quad inside the cage. If he comes to hand to eat inside the cage he should respond in the same way outside the cage. Try to use the same tone of voice and repeat the same commands and behave like you would with him when he's locked up and hope for the same response on his part. Oddly, getting the rats out of the cage is part of the exercise and I have to think Quad getting it. 

Although your couch is a perfect pack rat habitat, I don't think there's anything magical about it nor is there any big difference between inside the cage and outside... I don't think Quad would see one side of the cage as freedom vs the other as prison. Chances are if you left the cage open with food inside he'd go back in on his own. 

I'm starting to get concerned that you aren't able to exploit your bond with your rats. There's a big difference between taming a wild animal and building an actual bond with a rat. Brown and black rats are pack animals, it's in their nature to bond with their family members. So you don't actually tame them. My part wild rat had a full set of creepy wild instincts. She could leap off my desk and evaporate right into thin air, flitting from shadow to shadow, so I could barely detect movement out of the corner of my eye. And every now and then I'd catch a glint from her eyes looking down at me from some high place like the top of the fridge. She also dug a hole into the underside of every piece of furniture in the house including the box springs so once she hit the floor anywhere she had a secret place to disappear into every few feet. We found some of these after she was already gone. Whenever we turned over a chair or couch there was a similar small hole in each. One night she evaporated into my bedroom, and for whatever reason didn't want to come when called I found she actually spent the night sleeping under me in my box spring. I suppose she figured I should have known she was there and didn't need to actually come up when I called her... 

But generally when I called her... poof... she would just turn up on my desk out of nowhere... check in.... get a few skritches and then leap off into the shadows again. Stealth and invisibility really were two of her remarkable wild abilities, having a rat phobic wife and a rat cohabiting under the same roof I learned to appreciate these skills ever the more. They could be mere feet apart and my wife never knew it. I might add that if things got loud or too active she wouldn't appear even if I called. She liked things to be quiet and dark in order to act normally. Or at least as close to a domestic rat as was possible for her. Basically she was wired hot. Little things that I barely noticed like crunching a plastic bag sent her into oblivion. If someone downstairs dropped something she reacted like someone dropped a Buick in the same room we were in.

So, try to get the cat out of the picture, try to make things as dark and quiet as possible and try to call and lure Quad out. If he's wired like my part wild rat, the quiet might give him more confidence and he might respond to your commands and offers of food and treats.

There's really nothing wrong with your rats wanting to explore their home at this age, in fact they should be free ranging by now, it's normal and healthy for them, unless your cat eats them. But you should also be developing a bond where they should start responding to command, at least if it's quiet and safe to come out. Most rats will never do anything to put their safety at risk so make sure there is nothing threatening going on.

Keep in mind our part wild rat was only part wild and she was a brown rat, so we knew she could bond with humans. Well at least with two humans. She never trusted humans in general and would tear up strangers who tried to pick her up. She also liked to hear our voice before we picked her up, so we always introduced ourselves first, so she knew who we were and then let her sniff us, and then she would jump up on hand or let us safely pick her up. No one in their right mind would have ever snatched her out of a nap, that would have ended in bloodshed and tragedy. Once she was engaged and knew who we were, my daughter even squished her into Barbie Doll dresses and accessories. She was actually a very loving and friendly animal, but we always had to take into account that her wild instincts would kick in when she didn't know what was going on or if she got spooked an in general that was always bad.

Give some thoughts to trying to work your relationship to your advantage and things that might be stressing the situation and keeping Quad from behaving correctly.

Lastly, there is a possibility that wood rats can't bond with humans... I don't think you should give up yet, especially if you are making progress... but if they can't develop a human bond like black and brown rats, this is about as good as it's going to get. By now, if it's really quiet and safe, Quad should already be responding to you and shouldn't be afraid to come out when called. Maybe it will take a bit longer with wood rats, but still you should see some signs of progress. He should at least be peaking out to see what you want.

Keep us posted.


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## Kucero

Rather than go into everything to support my argument about my cat, please trust me when I say that Agilarr is neither predator nor problem.

But before I get into my speculative summary, an update: I have Quad again. He'd was coming out whenever I was feeding Rita and Appa, and letting me hand feed him while he was being a free rebel ratling. He continued his hoarding behavior, taking whatever food I was holding out for him, then trying to stuff a second and third in his mouth before running back to the couch and then reappearing only seconds later, apparently stashing whatever he could get away with. I was holding a handful of Cheerios that Appa was grazing on when Quad walked right into the cage, over my wrist, and bullied Appa out of the way just as she was approaching him, her nose twitching. This startled Appa, who did a violent 180, which scared Quad, who also did a 180 (but in the opposite direction, right back out of the cage) and they both startled me, because feeding time usually goes without incident. They were both out of sight almost instantly. They move faster than I can see.

The rest of the feeding went without a hitch. A few hours later, during the next feeding session, Quad presented another opportunity by crawling into the cage. I shut the cage door, glad to have both babies again, but feeling kinda guilty, knowing he was going to take exception when he realized he was, once again, confined. Then I thought about the chewing he had been subjecting the couch to, and the cleaning task ahead of me, because I know he's been packratting and pooping, and that reminded me of how necessary it is to keep him in the cage for a while.

It's looking like it's not possible for Eastern woodrats to bond. Tamed? Yes. Domesticated? Quite possibly. There are significant differences between woodies and Norways. Not only are they different species, they're different genera (Rattus vs. Neotoma). Woodrats are keyed (HIGHLY) toward self preservation, and there's not much left in their skillset for things like a desire for love and companionship. Except for the reproductive cycle, they don't socialize, and that is the key reason they lack the capacity to bond with anything. For these guys, there is no Alpha rat, no heirarchy at all, no play, no affection. I'm not sure they even understand the concept of "play". Their desire for solitude is so strong that fights over territory sometimes become lethal. Adults are soundless, and my belief is that this lends itself to a less developed understanding of communication by voice. No matter how many times I've repeated it, I am 75% certain that Rita doesn't understand her name.

An animal isn't going to go against its most powerful instincts "just because". If I want these rats to defy their intuition, I have to offer something that forces them to contradict it, but it has to be more appealing than the call to keep instinct intact. For example, there's a popular belief that putting two male mice in the same cage will cause them to fight. But if they understand that it's just the two of them, they can support their social needs over their want for territorial dominance. 24 hours after being introduced to each other, they'll be sleeping curled up next to each other. Being devoid of that desire for companionship is probably the key reason that no one has met with success in their endeavors to completely domesticate them.


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## bloomington bob

I'm continuing to be extremely interested in the adventures of Rita, Quad, and Appa. You may very well be right, and eastern woodrats may not be able to form bonds, due to their solitary nature. I hope you keep it up for a while, as Rat Daddy said, and see if it's the case that bonding takes much longer then it does with the Rattus genus, or if it's just not possible at all.


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## Rat Daddy

It wasn't until I started working with brown rats outdoors that I really understood how strong their bonding and pack instincts were. My 4 week old rat made a clean getaway and then came back all on her own 45 minutes later after we only had her for a week. Basically like a puppy would or rather better than most puppies. Two things became immediately clear to me, first that rats don't get lost and second that their bonding instinct was stronger than any instinct to "be free" You don't come home with a shoulder rat because you can outrun her, you come home together because your rat wants to come home with you. And yes wood rats being more solitary animals concerned me right from the start. 

I wasn't too concerned about the domestication issue, Wilder the black rat and my own part wild brown rat weren't domestic but both bonded to humans. To which I might add that my mom had a pet squirrel that she raised and it came inside every morning to have breakfast with her after she "released" it into the back yard. Squirrels aren't pack animals, but apparently they can bond with humans to some extent likely based on the parent child relationship. But to be honest I don't know too much about squirrels and say that with the very real risk of being wrong. Cats and hamsters don't generally strike me as pack animals either and some seem to develop human relationships too, perhaps not to the degree of a black or brown rat or a dog, but there's definitely something there. And I believe that's my reason to believe that some sort of relationship with wood rats is possible. Again, it's a supposition based on no real evidence and the very nature of your current experiment. 

I think if I were building the perfect rat cage, I'd start out with an old cabinet or sofa. My rats have a perfectly good cage but prefer to live in an old metal cabinet or at the bottom of a box of junk. What humans see as a great cage isn't what rats see as the perfect home. A perfect rat home is dark and cramped and has little crawl spaces and soft stuff to tear up and nest in. I don't think that either Quad or Appa actually escaped from their cage, they just found a better nesting place in your couch. As I predicted, Quad responded to you the same way outside the cage as in the cage, coming to you at feeding time. It's a good thing to know, and hopefully might become the basis for letting him out of the cage in the future. I see this experience as having a positive outcome... Quad wasn't escaping, rather he was moving into more wood rat appropriate digs. I think rat cages are designed for humans, who want to watch their rats not so much for the way rats see their homes. Perhaps if the next cage you design were built more like a sofa, your rats would run into it rather than out... just a thought. 
Also to some degree or another you have to consider a rats fear of open spaces to be a handicap in bonding with them as you can't fit under the couch and your rats are going to be on high alert when they are out in the open. In immersion we use a relatively small and therefore safe space for bonding. Large enough for a human to fit, but small enough so the rat can see he's relatively safe and can get comfortable. I'd think your large cage should do the same thing as your little ones should feel pretty safe there....

As to the cat, I absolutely understand that he won't attack your rats and that they are safe, but are you sure they know that? I just raised the issue because I don't know how high strung your wood rats are. My part wild rat actually attacked cats, Fuzzy Rat pretty much ignored them, but Max won't even go onto the ground if there's a cat withing 100 yards. We take our rats to two different parks, one which has no feral cats and Max is confident and explores the other which has feral cats and where Max will either stick right on us or bolt for the car. It took me a while to understand the difference until I noticed a cat in the tall grass. So the question becomes, if your rats aren't afraid of you, is there anything else that might be frightening them that might be affecting your results?

Mainly the difference between wild brown rats and domestic brown rats is their ability to manage their stress response. When you raise both together, you find that they are substantially similar. Well, to be sure wild rats have more inherent abilities and instincts, but most importantly it's how their stress response is wired.. If I crunch a plastic bag, my domestic rats come looking for food, whereas my part wild rat would evaporate into the woodwork. The very same sound that attracted one rat sent the other off in terror. Likely the crunching sound is unpleasant to rats, but the domestic ones can stay calm and learn that it's also the sound of food being liberated from packaging. It's not that basically wild brown rats and domestic brown rats were too different, it's just that the wild one was high on speed while the domestic ones were smoking pot. Pardon the drug reference... I'm just trying to illustrate a point. I'm thinking if your rats are wired as hot or even hotter than my part wild rat, you may have to adjust the lighting and make sure everything is very quiet when you try and interact with them, so the TV in the other room isn't keeping them from feeling comfortable enough to interact with you... 

I may be grasping at straws, and I'm guessing you have already considered the environmental influences that could be getting in your way, but there was a famous experiment that was done with mice that wouldn't run a maze when the elevator in the building was in use. It turned out they were just as smart as any other mice, they just froze up in panic whenever the elevator moved. I might add that the psychology building in my college had the worlds slowest and quietest elevators anywhere on campus at the cost of who knows how much to prevent their interference with animal experiments... Every psychology student, was reminded of the mouse experiment as they stood their patiently in the elevator waiting to get from one floor to the next... It was about the only building on campus where the stairs were more popular than the elevator. 

Those are just a few thoughts from the peanut gallery... 

Overall Quad coming back to the cage is promising, but if it turns out that wood rats are wired so hot as to be unable to function in a normal household, it may not be much better than if they can't bond at all... still it's something that can be worked on...

Best luck.


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## tiquanunderwood

Please continue with the updates! This is such a great experience. Gotta commend you for having the courage, time, and patience to take care of these beloved woodrats.


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## Kucero

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm guessing you have already considered the environmental influences that could be getting in your way


You're absolutely right. Anyone who's read this thread could guess that the amount of money I've spent on these rats is pitiful compared to the amount of time. I try to think of everything that could possibly have a negative impact on the rats whether I am interacting with them or not, and the presence of a predator is too conspicuous for even me to have overlooked. What I said was that my cat is neither predator nor problem. Not being a problem encompasses more than simply not eating them. Agi and Rita have met, and surprisingly, there was neither fear nor aggression shown by either party, only curiosity. After 30 seconds of sniffing through the wire between them, I took the cat away to save some of that curiosity for next time when I would have my camera with me. But when I brought him around the cage, Rita waited patiently at the front, and Agi never noticed her again. The noise he made with the bag when I was spending time with the twins was an isolated incident; it just happened to be bad timing. Truly, he is in no way compromising my progress with any of the rats. My teenage child can be a distraction, but not my cat.

Any guesses why wild rats and mice are so fearful of the sound of a rustling plastic bag? Rita was terrified of them at first, even plastic shopping bags. All three of them know now that it means food, and the sound brings them to the front if they're hungry.

Rita just taught me something else about woodrats; they can cough. I had read an obviously inaccurate newsletter that declared that rats could neither vomit nor cough. I watched a few videos of pet rats coughing for comparative purposes, and Rita sounds nothing like any of them. Hers was much slower, harder, and louder, and it filled me with worry when she started doing it, but it didn't last long. What was she choking on? Canned sweet peas. They're very soft and difficult to pick out of a can intact, so I fed her a glob of "pea mash". She decided it would be easier to grab a mouthful than lick it off, and that's what happened. I'm going to drain the juice and just dump them in my palm from now on.

Appa hasn't made any more progress. I'm still getting Quad to climb onto my hand to be moved to the cage entrance, he still goes in without a problem, but it takes a while to do it without scaring him. The BEST time I've made from the first pursuit to the baby in the cage is still 20 minutes, but that's not too terribly bad, considering that the first time took over an hour.


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## Rat Daddy

No, I can't say what makes bags crunching so frightening to wild rats. Whenever I crunched a bag, my part wild rat evaporated while my domestic came for food. In time it got better.

Brown rats tend to play and snuggle together as well as follow each other around, it's part of their bonding behaviors... do you see this with your wood rats? It would be interesting if your rats treat you like they do each other or if they treat you differently. If wood rats don't play with each other, it might be safe to assume they wouldn't play with you. But if they are playful together, then you should be looking for a similar interaction with you.

Brown rats pretty much interact with their humans like they do with other rats. It's not an exact match but it's similar given the size and shape differences.


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## gotchea

I assume they run from the bag noise because it sounds like leaves and branches breaking under someone's foot.


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## lovemyfurries

I tend to agree with what Gotchae said, because being in the wild their first reaction would be one of fear that someone is getting close and they need to hide.

So cute how Rita was waiting for your cat  and Quad going so comfortably on your hand back to the cage is amazing. Three of my boys were running around the lounge the other night while my daughter was watching TV and one must have gotten a fright so he hid under the couch. They normally always come when I call, but it took about half an hour of coaxing to get him to trust me enough to come out. He's been fine ever since and still comes when I call, so all I can think is that something scared him that night, but there's me on all four, blowing smells of yummy treats and calling him. Then I was sitting on the floor talking to him assuring him I was there and there was nothing to be afraid of. Fortunately I'd just that day made some rat treats in the oven ( a mix of peanut butter, banana, cinnamon, flour and a bit of sugar rolled into little snakes. Yummy for them, that got him out


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## Kucero

Rita was the star of the show before the babies came along, and it's been difficult to establish equal amounts of time between them. I decided to modify the "maze" cage I made for her. She had no trouble at all when it came to navigating her way around, but I noticed she never spent any time outside of the maze area. The entire lower half of the cage, including the wheel, went untouched. I also wanted to make something that offered a little more privacy, so in the interest of making everything as private as possible, I made a new "holding cell" for her to chill in while I made adjustments to her domicile.









I knew it would take a while, so I made it fairly large, but since it wasn't meant to be permanent, it's put together with hot glue.









The only thing that makes the temporary arrangement noteworthy was Rita looking like she was in jail. She just wanted to be fed, and I was happy to accommodate her.









So heres how I finished Cage #10: Rita's Retreat. She finally decided to nest in the place I intended for her. She even uses the steps leading up to the little cottage. The side tunnel leads to the feeding area, and beneath that is a network of shinies and toys she likes. The cottage is divided; the lower level is her nesting place, and the attic (accessible from the back) is where I've been adding more valuables for her to distribute wherever she likes. So far, so good; she's resumed her usual packrat activity, and seems to like her new domicile.

The problem is that I might have added a little too much privacy. I put cardboard over the sides and the top. The front is acrylic, which offers no air circulation except for the bottom 1.5", which is there for removal of the litter tray. Other than that, the back of the cage has the only exposed mesh. I didn't take ventilation into account when I was making her home nice and dark, but I think there would be adequate ventilation if I remove the lower half of both sides. Would that be enough?


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## Rat Daddy

For the most part rodent's in general seem to like cramped dark spaces without too much ventilation. I've experienced the same with my rats, they have a nice airy cage and prefer to nest in an old cabinet. 

The common wisdom is that brown rats prefer lots of ventilation despite my personal experience to the contrary. Now as to what brown rats do in nature... I've watched mine dig burrows... you would be very surprised how quickly they can tunnel, for sure these tunnels are dank and not too well ventilated which tends to support the idea of rats not liking too much cross draft in their homes. But I will add one final note, in nature a rat can come out of it's burrow any time it wants too and lie around in the sunshine to warm up and dry off... not that I've even seen a wild rat do it, but it has the option to do it if it wants. 

Judging from my own rats, they would prefer solid roof and four solid walls and only a tiny entrance... ventilation wouldn't be their first preference, but I would still have a dry ventilated place in the cage for my rats to go if they wanted to... Given a cage or a big box, my girls will choose the box every time. Go figure...


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## bloomington bob

It's great how you keep making these cage improvements


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## lovemyfurries

I love her little cottage  so cool. I like it


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## Kucero

Appa finally took a big step...a few hours ago, she perched her entire body weight on my hand and grazed contentedly. Still nervous, but comfortable enough to shove Quad away when he tried to join her.

Since it was just about time to replenish their fresh fruits and veggies, I went to the store. By the time I got back, they were gone. In my excitement, I forgot to latch the door. Sure enough, I found them under the couch, or rather, I saw them. They were not being shy at all, darting in and out, climbing on top...they were both all over the place. I called to them and watched as they tentatively approached, but when they didn't smell food, they went back to their business. I saw Quad pick up a piece of cellophane and cart it away toward the couch. I left their cage open and put some food in it for them, then moved way off to the side. They ate it. We've done this routine three times now. It would be easy to simply catch them in the cage, but after I try a couple of things first. It'll be interesting to see if/how this pans out.


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## Rat Daddy

The object of the exercise would be to make family pets out of wood rats.... They should be able to free range and interact with you outside the cage.... Obviously adult rats aren't manageable unless they want to be and wild rats are way faster and more agile then domestic ones. This is where it really gets interesting.


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## Kucero

It didn't take long before they were leaving the confines of the couch area and exploring other rooms. I cut off their access, because even though Agilarr doesn't have any interest in them when they're caged, he would very likely want to play with them if he saw them running loose. He wouldn't hurt them, but he'd scare them into seizures.

At first, both of them came out when they heard or smelled me, but kept their distance unless I had food for them. They were very nervous, even Quad. They'd run and stop about three feet away, then dart back and hide for half a second, then run up and stop two feet away, and repeat this process until they got a bite, after which they'd usually hide under the couch to eat it. It's quite funny to hear the sounds of happy grazing.

No one has verified whether fancy rats do this, but Eastern woodrats will thump the ground with one or both back feet whenever they are nervous or agitated. I'm inclined to believe they cannot control this reflex, because it gives their position away if they are concealed from view. They never did this a single time while they've been out of the cage for the last few days, not when it was just me. My son Auron, on the other hand, seemed to inspire fits of thumping just for smelling different than me. He often complained to me about how distracting it was when he was watching television and hearing the constant thuds of little feet against the floor. When Rita does this little footstomping dance, you can actually feel the floor vibrate in response.

It's a positive sign that the twins didn't thump at me, but I've been trying to figure out what makes them so nervous. It could simply be my size (from their perspective,) or something else completely. I saw Appa appear less frequently; she skipped a few meals and finally stopped appearing beside Quad completely. He didn't mind...more food for him. I wasn't worried about Appa's health, because I could still hear her moving around while Quad was in full view, and there was also the occasional burst of annoyed squeaks from scuffling siblings. It didn't take long to figure out why Appa was snubbing mealtimes; Quad was feeding her. I could hear her chewing while he was back for more. That kind of defeats my efforts at earning trust, so I'm going to cage them again and pick up where I left off.


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## bloomington bob

It does seem that you are making slow but steady progress - to be sure there is some regression, but you are venturing into unknown territory - it just may takea lot longer for the rats to feel comfortable around your son, and for Appa to trust you.


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## Kucero

I was about to begin this update with another "interesting turn of events" opener when I realized that half the time I'm writing an update, it's because something didn't go according to plan, or the plan didn't have expected results. Veteran rat owners will probably love this one.

Catching the twins again was easy. They were used to going in and out of their cage to eat, and comfort replaced caution. After making sure there were no tails in the way, I tugged the length of fishing line that was tied at the other end to the cage's open door. It was quiet, just loud enough to make them both reflexively twitch a little, although neither of them stopped eating.

I began straighten up the living room, not really looking forward to finding their latrine area, but resolved to do it sooner rather than later. I cleaned up an area for the enclosure, but I fed Rita first, and took my time doing it as I watched Quad rattling the cage bars like a crazed inmate. When it was their turn, I decided to try to coax them (Appa in particular) from the safety of the cage to eat. 

Since Quad doesn't have the trepidation issues his sister does, he gets full faster, so he got to run around while I fed his sister. Then I could chase him around and let Appa do some exploring after she was full. That plan didn't work, though, because by the time Appa was full, Quad was under the couch again. I was trying to figure out how he did it when Appa lent a helping hand by showing me. She was about to offer a demonstration when I intercepted her efforts. She bolted, and I used both hands to try to corral her to the cage. She had other ideas, though. She was at the top of the cage when I moved to get her, expecting her to retreat the same way she had come in. No such luck. She launched herself toward my hand. I thought I had won, until she bounced off my hand like a flat stone on water, sailed right over the enclosure's wall, and landed right in the middle of the coffee table. She didn't immediately run for cover, but sat there staring at me for a moment, probably thinking, "YEAH! NOW WHAT!! 

I was more than annoyed, but I couldn't be mad at them for doing what was natural. It took nearly two hours, but I got them again. I talked to them the whole time, using my lightest, friendliest voice to promise them death. Regrettably, I had to grab them, and surprise surprise, they still don't like it.

I caught Appa first, still using my best preschool teacher voice to try to sooth her. Predictably, had lots of fear pee and fright poop for me, but I was already prepared with paper towels already on the floor. I kept cleaning her up as she went, talking to her, and noticing that she didn't seem to be stricken with terror. For that matter, she actually appeared somewhat calm. So...why was she still bathrooming on me? Maybe it's the woodrat's version of giving me the finger. Even so, she had limited resources, so when she was finished, I removed the glove from one hand and began petting her. The response surprised me yet again; her eyes started getting heavy almost immediately, and they were completely closed within 15 seconds. When I stood up, still holding her, she didn't struggle. I brought her to the open door, opened my hand, and she simply strolled off my palm and into the cage, then climbed to the top level so she could sit and stare at me.

Neither of the twins would ever eat anything immediately after being handled, but Appa's actions seemed to convey some kind of expectancy, so I gave it a shot and offered her some pumpkin pie...and she actually took it and ate it. Everything she did the whole time, other than the surrender of her bodily functions, was completely opposite of what I had expected.

That same trend in surprises continued after catching Quad. He fought like the devil, struggling and biting and testing the limits of my paper towel supply. I tried something new; when he bit one of my gloved fingers, I gave him a very loud, firm "No!" The first one made him pause, the second one made him release and give me a look that said he clearly thought I had lost my mind. I didn't have him in a position that was comfortable for him, so I started maneuvering him into petting position, he bit again, I told him no again, and he stopped. After three or four of these, I noticed that in his struggles to free himself as I was trying to get him comfortable, his head moved and his mouth opened as though to bite, but he never bit again. It wasn't simply wishful thinking; he had just learned about unacceptable behavior. He accepted the petting session, but stayed wary, and when I brought him to the cage, he strained against my grip and bolted loose once he was inside, then refused any treats while he sulked out of view. It was like he and Appa had switched roles, and I still have no idea what to make of it.

I didn't have the energy left to put the living room back in order. Every piece of that couch is still standing on end.

I still haven't found their latrine area, either. It's possible that they cleaned up as they went.


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## bloomington bob

Ah more progress here re Quad stopping biting you and Appa eating after being handled - really interesting to see how difficult it is to overcome instinct and to trust.


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## lovemyfurries

I was like "aww" when I read about Appa and then Quad learning NO. So awesome  none of my rats ever did the foot stomping thing. When my now 'teenage' boys still get spooked every now and then when having a run around. Sometimes they'll come when I call but then run away, then come again. Sometimes I think it's a game though because when I do pick them up they don't try get away. Maybe the trust is easier or quicker with domestic rats?


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## Kucero

I really need to start taking pictures again. The problem is that I need four hands to interact with them.









This was my living room after the last time I caught them.

Progress has been steady. Both of them are pretty much immune to loud noises now. They don't even look up when I turn the vacuum cleaner on. They seem much less skittish overall.

I just finished another session with them. Appa is now comfortable enough to climb all the way into my hand, and there is no longer any hesitation or foot thumping in her initial approach. Once she's full, though, she still runs from me. That's fine, because she's miles ahead of where she was a week ago.

Quad is almost acting like a pet now. The first time I lowered him from the top of the cage to the open door, he was trembling in addition to peeing all over me. He seems to have the hang of it now, especially since I give him treats after he goes inside the cage. Tonight, it was pieces of an apple cinnamon rice cake. The first couple of times, I lowered him to the open door, he sauntered in, turned around, and took the treat. After that, he stopped confining himself to just my hand and started running up my arm. He'd turn around to get his treat before I even had him at the door. Then he started stashing, but I was having so much fun with him, I let him keep doing it. He'd take the treat, hide it, run out of the cage, climb to the top, and stare at me until I put my hand where he could climb on. I finally shut the door behind him so I could focus on Appa.

I tried convincing her to take a short ride, but she's not into that yet. On the positive side, she's not terrified, either. I gave her some treats in between, and she always took them with minimal hesitation. I finally opened the cage so she could go in on her own, and Quad bolted out immediately, scaring her worse than I had done all night. He explored a little bit while I listened to the crunching sounds of Appa eating his stash.


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## bloomington bob

Great to see that things are progressing so well!


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## Nessa

Test post sorry


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## Nessa

Yay! I can post now. I've been reading this thread since a couple days ago and am so happy to hear about your progress and eagerly await your updates.


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## Rat Daddy

Finally! I think your wood rats are getting it. They are starting to interact with you and their larger environment. Fear is a hardwired response in rodents, but unlike humans it comes and passes quickly... It doesn't particularly cause stress that debilitates humans.... rats react and then get over it then move on.... If a wild rat sees a predator it runs for cover then when it assesses the treat has gong it goes right out and forages again. Life for a small animal is dangerous, so it's hot wired to respond, but also wired in such a way that it doesn't let fear debilitate it.... Episodes of fear aren't necessarily a bad thing, just something that you have to work through... and now something you can start to teach through... 

Try to get them to learn their names and to come on command or at least on suggestion.... Quad is about to start to communicate with you (hopefully) staring at you to get your attention to be picked up is a good start. Brown rats like to be understood, but this comes very natural to them because they are social animals... I'm not surprised that this takes longer with wood rats being more solitary beings.

I'm also kind of happy your rats aren't fighting for territory, which is also common for small non-typically social rodents. I don't think there are many cases where wood rats live in an extended family structure, but hey, the big surprises are the things that happen when you try new things. I learned more about brown rats in a few hours at the beach than I might have learned in a lifetime of observing them in a cage. Rats are dynamic animals that need to interact with their environment to actually learn something and to adapt. If you never engage them with new activities you don't stress them, but they don't learn anything new and they don't adapt or grow intellectually... 

I know that sounds harsh to some folks, but it looks like it's paying off for you. Remember, way back when I told you it's all about competence and getting out of the cage and learning to interact as small independent household members? This is pretty much what I was talking about. 

Don't take offense that your rats run to stash food, oddly even the best brown rats will often do it.... rats steal from each other, so even if they love you and see you as another rat they still aren't necessarily going to trust you with their food. 

I think based on my part wild rat, you are going to find your guys are always going to be wired hot... and fast to take cover and hypersensitive to their environment, that's how they survive in the wild... but they are also going to start learning more every day. Try verbal commands and hand/body gestures to see if you can get them to understand instructions/commands... Keep in mind rats don't actually follow commands, but they do learn to understand and to take suggestions... 

Training is going to have it's own challenges, and maybe you shouldn't rush things too much, and there are going to be some setbacks but that's where you are headed next... keep in mind wood rats may never understand verbal commands but may learn body language instead, also keep working on understanding them and try to react consistently to their behaviors so they know what to do to get you to do something predictable too. In other words so they know you can understand them too.

It's taken a while, and I suspected that it would take them getting out of the cage before real progress could begin, but it looks like you are getting there. Being able to keep wood rats alive in a cage as an exhibit animal would not have been much of an accomplishment, but actually raising them to be interactive house pets is a milestone, and perhaps a first ever achievement. 

The greatest shortcoming that brown rats have is their short life span. It's especially hard on children to lose their best furry friends every two years or less... I see it with my daughter who loves her rats, but is beginning to see them as a never ending series of tragedies. At nine years old she's already lost most of her best friends, made new ones and lost them again and again... As adults we cope better with loss, but the idea of a rat that can live a whole lot longer is a great bonus. I realize your experiment has been trial and error, but if socializing wood rats is possible, it's likely a process that can be streamlined too. 

I've sort of been watching with abated breath since things started to move forward with Appa and Quad, but you might really be on the verge of a major breakthrough... 

It wasn't too long ago when common wisdom held that wild brown rats couldn't make good pets, but we've seen enough examples of them becoming great friends to humans to know better now... and then there were those that held that black rats couldn't live as companion animals and that myth has been dis-proven in a big way by Wilder and a few others that have really shone... Last year, I'd say no one would have ever thought of wood rats as pets much less furry friends, and now here we are thanks to you and Rita and Appa and Quad, one step closer to having to rewrite the rules again. 

GREAT JOB!


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## Kucero

Quad is now at the point that I don't have to be holding anything for him to jump on my hand or climb up my leg and start crawling all over me. The difference in his behavior before and after the breakthrough is phenomenal. There was a certain line he crossed after taking one of those short rides that switched his mentality from "Wow, I barely escaped with my life" to "Hey, that wasn't so bad after all." His motivation is still food, of course, so we haven't gotten into play just yet, but when he starts stuffing himself to the gills with the obvious intent to stash, I have to use my free hand to push him back into the cage.

The reason behind cutting his packratting tendencies short is because it's having an adverse effect on my interactions with Appa. She's figured out that if she just waits, Quad will drop a mouthful and run back to me, leaving his hoard-in-progress unattended and free for Appa's grazing pleasure. She's not yet at the point that she will put all fours in one hand, but if I hold the food out far enough, she'll put her front paws one hand and her back two in the other. She's been doing this with increasing confidence, but she's still so skittish I usually find myself holding my breath while she eats, because the slightest movement sends her scurrying back into the cage.

Not only do they not fight over territory, but they snuggle up together in the same bed. I'm not sure if this is an artifact of their environment, or if they're simply not old enough yet for those solitary instincts to kick in. They will be 3 months old next week, and that is about 20 days past the point in which Rita would have kicked them out of the house had they been born and raised in the wild.

Calling the rats by name isn't difficult; I've always been able to tell them apart, and the differences between their appearance grow more pronounced as they age. Getting them to recognize their names, or any word, will be tricky if it's even possible at all. Because of their instinctive solitary nature, they don't possess the broad variety of communication methods that fancy rats do. Even now, I'm not sure whether Rita approaches me because she recognizes her name, or if she simply recognizes my voice and wants to be fed.

In an earlier post, I mentioned that woodrats and fancy rats don't share the same genera (Neotoma vs. Rattus). From a couple of old archives published in 1952 and 1961, I've since learned why there is a distinction. Woodrats were first noted in 1749 by Peter Kalm, and they were first designated as genus Mus, which is particular to mice. Eastern woodrats in particular weren't discovered/recognized until 1818. In 1819, Thomas Say, widely considered the father of descriptive entomology in the United States, gathered the collective knowledge of the known types of woodrats, and designated the new genus Neotoma. From everything else I've learned through both study and observation, these critters are as different from fancy rats and fancy mice as rats and mice are from each other, and despite how they are named, I don't believe they are true rats.

Finding this forum was part of my ongoing search for an authority on native rats, but I now know that it's not enough to find someone with knowledge of woodrats in general. The differences between the different species are profound enough to necessitate finding someone with detailed knowledge about Eastern woodrats in particular. A few weeks ago, I started contacting higher universities in hopes of speaking with someone who knows more about them than I can learn in cyberspace, but I haven't had so much as a false alarm. The most recent published research I've found on Eastern woodrats is from the 80s, but since it is in no way complete, I'm sure there are people in possession of a wealth of information about them. I just haven't looked in the right place yet.

The most logical approach toward developing any kind of relationship with these critters is to first go with the tried-and-true methods that have worked for pet rats and mice, especially those practices that should logically work with any sentient beings. For Eastern woodrats, sound is third in the list of senses they rely upon for survival, and vision is even further down the list. If I can't communicate with them by sound, I doubt that movements and gestures would produce more positive results. I haven't even been able to modify their behavior with consistent placement. For example, the feeding area for Rita's new cage spans its entire width, but even though I feed her specifically on the left side, she still hasn't developed a habit for approaching me from that same spot. Sometimes, she'll retreat a few inches to graze on the bite she just took, but comes back to the front of the cage in whatever direction she's pointed, not where she should know by now that the next bite will be offered.

I think it's worth noting that Eastern woodrat vision is inferior to fancy rat vision, as far as object detection and identification goes. But while Norways are dichromats, Eastern woodrats can see red, and might very well register the same color spectrum that we do. It might be possible to use color to aid in their training, but I'm not quite ready to start wearing different outfits for them yet.

Even with everything I've already tried and failed with, it's also possible that Quad's breakthrough could be a game-changer. Since he perceives me as less of a threat than he did before, he might respond to stimuli that previously had no meaning for him. I'm glad I didn't erase the drawing board I have to go back to.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually the breakthrough with Quad is typical of brown rats too... It's just that during an immersion session it often takes place within minutes to hours... One minute the human is a threat or a piece of furniture and then suddenly a light bulb flicks on and the rat realizes that the human is another sentient being that is not a threat, but will act and react predictably and therefore can be communicated with and trusted. In extreme immersions this is a rather bazaar phenomenon because a rat can go from literally attacking to cuddling up on their human in a matter of seconds... Once you make the breakthrough all of the rules change when dealing with brown rats... This realization is the very core of the immersion bonding experience. It's likely similar to the bonding experience humans have with dogs and perhaps birds... With wood rats being generally solitary animals, I didn't know if this was possible, but in order for wood rats to become friends with humans, it was what I was hoping for... I do think it's more than just Quad searching you for food, as you pointed out Appa doesn't always look for food in the same place and Quad doesn't seem to be interacting with you as just a food dispenser. One early communication lesson I use with brown rats is to walk in the direction they point their nose until they learn to lead me around the house. They actually get very excited about being able to direct where I go by pointing and tapping their feet. Fuzzy Rat was able to direct us to where she wanted to go even after she was disable and could not walk, she would also use the pointing trick to ask for things she wanted, to be lifted higher or put down and she would tap her feet for us to open a closed door and carry her through. But again she was a brown rat with communication as a core competence already... all she had to do was to find a method we could understand.

You are very much right, wood rats are a different species and what we know about brown and black rats may not be relevant. I've got to think someone has worked with wood rats before, but there's a very good chance that there are no good records of it available. Perhaps someone like yourself found a wood rat pup and raised it, who knows if he kept notes, my mom raised a squirrel, she passed away in the 1991 and my dad passed away since and there's nothing more than a couple of photos with mom and her squirrel at the bottom of some old box left... How she did it and the detailed nature of their relationship is lost to history. It's a good idea to keep looking for information, but beware of misinformation too. After I had trained my first true shoulder rat, I was informed that it couldn't be done. I'm pretty sure I'm glad I didn't know that until after I had already done it. So maybe sometimes less information is actually better.

Honestly, one thing I have learned about working with rats is that they are each individuals and will develop different ways to interact with humans. They will pick up on cues from you and where one rat might pick up on your sounds another will watch your behaviors, there's no rule for how communication takes place even with two brown rats. Two brown rats will develop two completely different strategies to tell you the same thing and some don't really seem like they have a lot to say and never become nearly as communicative as Fuzzy Rat was. Amelia once pounded on my feet and ran back and forth from me to the closet, she kept repeating the same procedure until I opened the closet and found Fuzzy Rat locked inside, it was a brilliant communication strategy and yet it was one of the very few times she ever tried to reach out and tell us anything other than she wanted food or to be lifted into the cage or taken out. For the most part she kept to herself and hung out in the pantry. She was capable of communicating and knew we could understand her, but she really never had too much to say to us whereas Fuzzy Rat was constantly looking for productive interaction.

Quad might become very interactive and Appa may never become too friendly, and there may even be differences between girls and boy wood rats when it comes to how they interact with humans that aren't specific to Quad and Appa.

So for now, I suppose you are fast becoming the expert on the subject and unlike any hypothetical predecessors, you are leaving a record behind for as long as the server doesn't crash and the site stays up there's a diary on how to socialize wood rats someone else can find. Who knows, maybe tomorrow someone that's done it may find this tread and add valuable information to the knowledge base... 

It really is quite funny with how long humans have been around and with how many humans there are on earth, just how little we seem to collectively know about so many things. And with knowing as much as we do, how much we still get wrong.

But as far as Quad goes, I'm thinking the rules have changed because the relationship has changed. I admit my actual experience doesn't extend to wood rats, but I actually don't see any kind of a rodent being much of an exhibit animal like a tropical fish. I think rodents are just too smart for that. I believe that in order for your wood rats to be happy and mentally healthy they need to have a richer life and thereby interact with their human(s). So you are very much on the right track, be it by trial and error. And best of all, by sharing your experience you are creating a guide of sorts to how it's done.


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## Kucero

The game has changed again. Yesterday, I was basking in what I thought was a significant achievement, but I should have known it wouldn't last. I thought the recent accomplishment was a turning point from which I could start making RAPID progress, but I feel like I'm the one being trained.

Appa will now crawl up my forearm to get at the food the other hand is holding, as long as she doesn't touch the floor. That might sound good by itself, but there's a huge caveat. Mealtime has become a competition. Appa is no longer being passive; she's jumping on my hand and climbing on me to stuff as much food into her mouth as possible, but then she'll retreat back to the cage to drop it and come back for more. The last session (which ended about half an hour ago) was actually alarming; the feeding frenzy grew so fierce, I was afraid I'd get bitten accidentally. They both bit me, all right, but not accidentally. I was trying to dole out their supper in small increments, giving them one piece at a time while the rest was concealed, but they weren't having it. Both of them bit a finger (at different times, though) and pulled in an effort to get me to open my hand. Quad even used both front paws to try to pry my hand open. I followed their wishes all three times. It was counterproductive to the way I wanted to feed them, but it was still communication, regardless, and communication progress trumps everything else.

Rita showed me a new behavior this morning that indicates that there might be hope for word recognition/commands/requests, after all. I'm familiar with her eating habits; once she has had enough of one food type, she'll stash any subsequent offerings of the same type in anticipation of whatever is coming up next. She's not as fond of green beans as she is of corn, so when she ate two green beans, dropped the third, and stashed the fourth, and then approached the window with her "Feed me" stance, I knew she was telling me "Enough beans, bring on the corn!"

But instead of letting her have her way, as I've done hundreds of times before, I told her to finish her bean. No response. I pointed and repeated, "Eat that bean." Rita shelved the feeding position and took a step back. She was baffled. "Eat your bean." Baffled. "Eat that bean." She spun in a circle. I was baffled. "Eat your bean." Spin. Baffled.. "Eat your ean." This time, she ran to the lower level of the cage and came back from the other side. I guess that was a big spin.

This opens up a whole new bag of possibilities!


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## Rat Daddy

I suppose there's an up side and a down side to your rats seeing you as another rat rather than a big scary human. Now your another rat withholding food and without the fear factor they are going to try and push you around. Of course teaching your rats to bite you for food is not necessarily the communication you are going for. Keep in mind, like any other rat you have the option of fighting back... just don't go overboard with this advise.

With brown rats, you can't expect them to try and communicate with you until they realize you are sentient, I suspect the same goes for wood rats. Quad and Appa are just getting the idea that you are capable of understanding them and yes, the game has changed and there are now many more possibilities for you to explore beyond feeding time.


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## bloomington bob

It's good to see the progress in communication


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## Kucero

Not much change to report, but since the twins are a day away from being 3 months old, I thought it would be a good time to post some updated pics, taken today.

Appa pics:



























Quad pics:


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## bloomington bob

Aww very cute!


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## lovemyfurries

Aww they're gorgeous  love the way Quad perches on your hand.


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## MOA

Aww! They have the biggest eyes!


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## Roonel

They are gorgeous!


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## Grawrisher

So it took 3 days but I finally read through this (YAY) so happy to hear all of the progress I certainly hope domestication is possible with this species! The longer life span would be really nice


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## Kucero

Three days to read it?? Now I'm wondering how long I've spent writing my part of it, and I don't need to be wondering that. It's one of those thoughts you try to push aside, but I might as well try to drown a ping pong ball.

Quad might have had a breakthrough, but I'm still just a food dispenser. We're still working on trust development, and he's progressing, but I'll get to that in a minute. The biggest thing here is that he allows me to pet him while he's perched on my hand, grazing. The next (and possibly last) line he needs to cross is the point that he considers petting to be rather nice.

Appa is standing near a line that she's having difficulty crossing. She'll run halfway out of the cage and stand there with her front paws in my empty hand, and if she doesn't suspect food is being offered, she retreats. This is hindering progress. The goal is for her to get on my hand and wait for me to bring her to where the food is. I've made a game of it with Quad. The latest: I put my hand on the floor, he crawls on, I lift him up and bring him to where I've put his food. He grabs it, and will try to grab whatever's next to it if I don't move him away, so I bring him back a couple of inches. If he turns around, I guide him back to the cage. Otherwise, I'll wait with him perched there while he eats, then guide him to the next bite when he finishes. This way, he is truly communicating with me.

With the advent of the Christmas season comes an influx of requests for custom woodwork. For one of the projects, I had to dust off the laser engraving machine for a personalized walnut and dry erase board calendar. The water pump's power cord had been severed. ::sigh:: Rita...

I have plenty of everything needed to repair power cords, though, so it was just a temporary delay. Before long, the machine was doing its thing. And not long after that, it decided it had done that thing long enough. I was engraving the days of the week on seven walnut plates, but only got halfway through "Tuesday" when the laser quit burning. I won't say how much this machine cost, or long I had to save for it, but I will say it's almost $1500 to replace the laser tube. So what went wrong with this thing? What happened? Rita happened. She had chewed through the water line, which is how the laser tube is cooled. That might make her one of the world's most expensive rats ever.

And that brings me to her progress report. I've been at a crossroad with her for a while now. Since I've been spending so much time with the babies, and since all indications point to my efforts ending in futility where she's concerned, I've been wondering if it might be time to let her go. No matter how content she might seem to be in my care, I know she wants her freedom more than anything else. I considered my reasons for keeping her captive in the first place and considered whether any of them had changed. They haven't. I still don't want to kill her, I can't let her run loose here, because she'll find her way back to my shop and start tearing stuff up again, I can't ratproof my shop, and I don't want to dump her someplace unfamiliar to her and let her get eaten because she doesn't know where the safe spots are. And I have even more to add to that list. It's almost winter; food is harder to find, and she doesn't have any food stores. And finally...I've grown attached. We're not friends, but she always seems happy to see me, regardless.

I have never tried using the enclosure to interact with Rita outside of the cage like I do with the twins. It's not just because she's terrified of me without her cage, but she's proven her capacity to do things that surprise the heck out of me, and those surprises usually precede an escape. Still, I know it won't sit right with me if I don't even try it before admitting defeat.

On the positive side, she now spins on command. Sometimes, it takes a couple of repetitions because she'll balk after starting the spin, like she's going to miss something in the milliseconds that her back is turned, or that I'll take off without feeding her, but she's honestly learned how to do a trick.


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## Grawrisher

It only took that long because i couldnt dedicatr the whole day to reading it  nonetheless the thread is quite lengthy.

Do you have an entry way or a closet where you could interact with rita? Somewhere with solid walls that she can't hide? When I was working with my first rat my grandma's entryway made a wonderful spot because we were both shut in and couldn't go anywhere.

Good to hear about quad what if you pet him before "dessert" so the pet meant a treat? Now it's possible you've already thought that just throwing out anything that might be helpful.


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## lovemyfurries

Aw Rita's learned a trick! That's awesome! I would imagine that after all this time you'd grow attached to her. It must be quite a dilemma as to what to do next. She has cost you an awful amount of money!! Let us know what you decide to do.


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## Kucero

The twins have started fighting. They roll, squeak, and stand on hind feet in boxing positions. They fight in the cage, in the enclosure, in my hand...and then they snuggle up in the same bed together. I'm wondering if that solitary nature is kicking in.

Appa is improving. She's still terribly skittish, but she'll stay perched in my hand while she eats, and doesn't bolt at the slightest movement anymore. She tenses up, but doesn't run even when I start coughing (I'm getting over a cold). Earlier tonight, she was balancing in the same hand that was holding a pile of green sweet peas, and I used my free hand to start taking peas from the pile and feeding her one at a time. She seemed more inclined to take them singly by hand rather than from the pile. I have to shut Quad inside the cage while feeding her like this, or he'll bully her into retreating far away.

Quad is even more comfortable with me now. Until a few days ago, I'd put my hand in front of him and he'd climb on. Sometimes, he wouldn't even wait for that; he'd crawl all over me looking for whatever food he smelled. But he had another breakthrough that I had neither foreseen nor planned; I fed a good bit of his most recent meal to him while he sat on my shoulder.


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## lovemyfurries

That's really amazing to hear as even some domesticated rats don't eat when they're being held but hold the food in their mouths till they get back to the cage. 

I wouldn't worry too much about the fighting and boxing, lots of sibling rats do that. Especially if they still cuddle up and sleep together. My two little girls really rough and tumble when they're on my bed or even in the cage, rolling around, pinning each other down, squeaking the lot. As long as there's no blood and they are still cuddling or sleeping together and not full of scabs they're fine. 

It can of course turn, not knowing these rats but just watch them for signs of real aggression like they puff up their fur to try look bigger and more intimidating and they have sort of a sideways crab crawl and bare the teeth...that's a good time to start worrying.

Good news about Appa trusting you more and especially Quad on your shoulder. You can be really proud of yourself


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## Rat Daddy

I refuse to add up all of the rat damage in my house over the years... Every wire is pretty much soldered and taped, I just bought the jumbo roll of electrical tape, without even considering the normal size one... and I'm sure I've gone through at least half a spool of solder since I've owned my rats.... But that laser tube must have really hurt... ouch! At least my rats have had the kindness to space out the damages over time...

And yes, if wood rats are like brown rats and humans, progress comes in breakthroughs... It's like they suddenly change their understanding of something or someone and then act completely differently from one minute to the next. I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly, but it sounds like your rats are getting out of the cage more and exploring the house more and if I'm right that's a great achievement (property damages aside). I really didn't want your wood rats to wind up as caged exhibit animals... The indoor world is still smaller than the great world beyond, but it's a compromise where they can explore and live with you and engage you in interaction when they want and need to... There's never been a true shoulder rat (indoor/outdoor) wood rat but some day it might be possible. In any event it's nothing to worry about at this stage of the game and that might be generations away, if it's even possible. A true shoulder rat can't freak out and needs an iron bond with it's human to keep from getting killed or lost, and that's rare even with brown rats.

As to fighting as in mock combat, in brown rats this occurs during the socialization process around 6 to 10 weeks old, it goes to the rats becoming aware of social status and play-fighting prepares rats to take their place in their family hierarchy and they just seem to have so much fun doing it. Pretty much every brown rat pup I've ever raised has "mock attacked" me out of the blue and then gone through a phase of play-fighting me, no matter how fierce they seem I've never actually been bitten during this phase.... I'm usually sad when it's over, I enjoy it too. The next time some brown rats fight is often concurrent with the onset of puberty around 5 to 6 months old, this is usually a little bit more serious and the rats are playing for keeps now... they are establishing their social status for their lifetimes... 

I don't know how that relates to wood rats, not generally being considered social, but I put it out there anyway... Wood rats don't typically live in cages, so who knows if they develop social behaviors when kept in smaller quarters... I also used the term puberty, which might also be of some concern as we don't know for sure when well fed and comfortably housed indoor wood rats become sexually mature... 

As to Rita, I believe that the progress you are making with the kids is an indication of the progress you should be able to make with her too, but she has seen the great big world and it may be harder to keep her on the farm now... As to relocating her and letting her go, I suppose all rats are intelligent and adaptable and she has all of the skills she needs to survive... but a rat's life in the wild is dangerous and often short in the best of circumstances. She might find herself someone else's warm workshop or woodshed to call home or an owl might find her delicious... either way it's nature and once you let her go, it's out of your hands... You didn't poison her or catch her in a snap trap so what ever happens really isn't your fault and once you set her free not your responsibility either... that said I would have a lot of trouble doing it. There's a big difference between what the head knows and the heart feels.

Still you are doing amazing and groundbreaking work, thanks for keeping us posted.


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## bloomington bob

You really have come a long way with Appa and uad, and I'm really looking forward to continuing updates


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## Kucero

It's been a while since my last update; holidays keep me busy, and I had a brief touch of something that defied the flu shot I got a month ago. Unfortunately, the demand for my woodworking cut into the time I spend with the trio, but I'm ready to get back on a regular schedule with them.

The fighting I had mentioned previously was nothing to worry about after all, as lovemyfurries pointed out. Quad especially seems to take great delight in sneaking up behind Appa and pouncing on her in a very catlike manner, but this has increased her awareness, and it's difficult for him to catch her by surprise anymore. She's even turned the tables and launched a few stealth attacks of her own. What follows is awe-inspiring, watching their acrobatic feats in the distance they can leap and the blinding speed at which they chase one another. Some of these squabbles take routes that run right across my leg, arm, and one time, it stated to go up a pants leg (I'm not even kidding), but what followed resulted in a mutual agreement between all of us that pant legs are bad places to take horseplay.

I've taken to playing with them, sort of. When I see that they're both in this frisky mood, I'll run my hand quickly over the carpet, which startled them both the first few times, but they soon realized there was nothing threatening in either the noise or my sudden movement. Quad has made a few uncertain attempts to reciprocate, and I sense that he wants to interact, but doesn't know how. I'm equally clueless...how does one play with a small wild animal? The only thing I can think of, and the goal I've been trying for, is to get him to chase my hand or whatever I'm holding (paper towel, feather on a string, etc), but beyond that, I have no idea. I've been hoping he'd find something that's comfortable for him and build on that.

I've made sure that I don't make any horseplay attempts with either of them until they are both full. Quad usually fills up first, but he usually likes to explore while Appa finishes her meal since she's become more difficult for him to pick on, but I want them both on equal status before making attempts toward progression.

There was one day that I didn't want to move, much less spend a few hours with the twins. On that day, I was a bad, lazy parent, but I don't think the twins minded much.









It turns out that they love peach pie. They actually consumed that entire chunk before lunchtime.


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## bloomington bob

You really seem to be making progress here - hope you are fully recovered from the flu!


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## lovemyfurries

Aww that's awesome to hear it really gave me a giggle. I also do the finger thing when they're on my bed and then they chase and get all excited. I don't know about wood rats but girls in general are way faster and more energetic. It's incredible how fast they can move.
They really look like they were enjoying that peach pie


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## Rat Daddy

As adult men, we tend to be careful around our rats, perhaps even gentle and cautious to the point of affection for our furry little friends... My daughter, now 9 years old, is quite the opposite... she's still playful and she pounces on our rats and tosses them and squishes them and chases them and flips them over and skritches their bellies and generally handles them like rag dolls... it's all quite horrific to watch. And sometimes, the rats truly look like their having a gawd awful time... sometimes they bound over to me for a break but then they bounce right back and charge at her for more... 

In our minds as adult humans, we see these little critters as frail and delicate, which is far from true... they are actually really tough little animals... I'm about 200 lbs and I sat on one yesterday by accident, it pretty much felt like sitting on a pack of cigarettes and even I was shocked to find that it didn't phase our rat in the least, aside from a little surprise at getting squished... If I listed all of the mishaps that should have killed our rats through the years, I'd sound like a pretty awful rat parent, but for the most part rats are pretty much made of super ball rubber. And rats love to play rough. They love to run and chase and kick it into high gear as they scramble around... My daughter calls it hyper rat speed.

This is where it becomes important to remember that rats are thinking animals... and they are always interpreting their experiences in context... Before you bond with them you are seen as a threat so any fast movement on your part can be interpreted as aggression or danger. Once you have bonded and your rats see you as... well... another rat or part of the family, your fast movements are interpreted as play and your rats will respond to you playfully. 

There are obviously limits to your rats durability, you can hurt or even kill them accidentally and we can't be entirely sure how well bonded your twins are as compared to how well a brown rat can bond and you might get nipped a little during play fighting or chasing around as we don't know how aggressively wood rats play, but overall, if wood rats are like brown rats their idea of play is pretty frantic and high speed. I would assume they would enjoy your participation in their games.

I just might want to add a particular warning... doors kill rats! When they get frisky and start chasing you around, they will pick up a natural tendency to dart through doors behind you... so always close doors slowly when your rats are out and about and watch where you step in the dark. It's great when your rats start chasing you around or playing with you, but they don't realize you can't see them in the dark or you may not notice them ducking through a doorway. You are actually much more likely to kill a playful interactive and friendly rat than one that's keeping it's distance to protect itself. Just a heads up... always remember how fast rats are and how quickly they can get into serious trouble by trusting you too much. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but I've seen more accidental rat injuries to rats that aren't afraid of what they should be, like chairs with wheels, doors or human missteps. Once your rats truly believe you won't hurt them, it actually gets harder not to.

It seems that wood rats share a similar appreciation of junk food with brown rats... Pie is an all time favorite for brown rats... pecan pie, french apple pie, peach pie... it doesn't matter... to that add candy bars, hard candy, anything from McDonalds and fortune cookies, or any cookies for that matter... I suppose this shouldn't surprise us as rats and humans are both primarily opportunistic scavengers and as such share a similar diet and have similar tastes. I'll let someone else list the dangers of obesity and improper nutrition, I'll just add that once your rats wrap their minds around the wonders of, you will never eat a pie in peace again when your rats are out of their cage... Rats can get quite aggressive if they think you are going to finish a pie without their help.

Lastly, I think you're really on the right track with the twins, I think in part it's taken a while because you haven't pushed them too hard, which may be the right or even only way to go about building a relationship with a wild wood rat... in any case you didn't have a guide to work from. But we are starting to see the kinds of interactions we would expect from wild brown rats or even domestic brown rats which makes me feel pretty good about wood rats as indoor human companion animals. I suppose Rita will be more of a challenge. Keep in mind, I've never heard of a case where adult wild brown rats have been socialized. If I have to make a guess, because brown rats are so smart, it can be done; the problem is that they are so fast and agile and they have such sharp teeth they are a real danger to the humans who are working with them... That's not to mention the kinds of infections wild rat bites can cause. I suppose the same can be said of wild adult tigers where the socialization process might get interrupted when the tiger shreds and eats the trainer. I think if you can safely handle Rita you can still socialize her to some degree, I doubt that she will ever get as friendly as the twins, but progress should be possible as you are starting to learn the kinds of techniques that work and those that don't with the twins...

I hope you had a great holiday and happy new year.


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## lovemyfurries

Hi....this is love my furries husband.....this has nothing to do with love my furries. I just picked up her I Pad and read this guy Rat Daddy's Monologue that could've been summed up in the following : Rats are small and get squashed. We don't know all that much about them cos they can't speak and Rat Daddy's name should be Captain Obvious.......it's painful.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, thanks for the synopsis lovemyfurries husband... I had rather intended to to suggest that rats were pretty durable small animals that enjoy rough play with each other and their bonded humans. Kucero is working with a different species of rat here and this is the first time anyone is actually socializing wood rats. And I was looking to address the kinds of activities that his rats might enjoy now that they are hopefully bonded and no longer fearful of him.

And yes, you are correct, many of the things I cover are obvious to some people. But some not so much to others. When I first started posting on line, I had a tendency to short hand my replies and comments, but as I can't see who is reading what I'm writing, I learned that it's easy for someone to misunderstand a remark like 'rats are durable' some folks mistook a comment like this to mean it's OK to hurt your rats... which it isn't... 

If we were sitting around talking about our rats, none of us would be speaking in monologues... You might say something, I might reply, if we didn't understand each other we'd ask questions and if anyone was listening along they might chime in or ask for clarification... unfortunately lots of people lurk and can misunderstand things and don't ask, so it's more explain what is obvious to some, and less so to someone else than just make a point. Which means it takes me a lot longer to write a reply that hopefully most people will get.

I have asked the site administration to turn on the chat function which they haven't done yet. I do look forward to them doing it. This way it would be easier for me to just post a short answer and clarify if necessary, (as in get straight to the point) and it would be easier for someone to ask what they aren't clear about.

Lastly, some of us really enjoy reading about and talking about rats, it isn't much of a hardship for us to share and read rat stories. It's what we do for fun... I suppose if it isn't your thing, it would be like me shopping for shoes with the wife... painful even in moderation. Even to clarify that.... I'm all in favor of my wife wearing and buying shoes... I just feel the urgent need to be far away when she does it.

Hope that makes sense.


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## bloomington bob

I really enjoy the extended comments and discussion here. My posts tend to be pretty short since I am a rat lover but not an owner, so I lack the hands on experience most have. I continue to learn a lot and look forward to reading about the continuing adventures of Rita and family and everything else in the forum.


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## MOA

Hoping all is well with Rita and the babies!


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## lovemyfurries

Me too.


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## Kucero

I know it's been a long time since my last update. Rita and babies are fine, but Agilarr died last week, and this is the first I've been online since then. My son and I were watching a movie together, and Agi was in his usual position, cradled in my arms and purring steadily, when he stretched and then went completely limp. He died in my arms in less than a minute. He's the only pet I've ever had, and I had him for 16 years. His latest vet visit was only a few weeks ago, and the results from all of the lab tests indicated that he was the picture of health, despite his age. Since he always accompanied me in the woodshop whenever I was working, having grown so impervious to the noisy machines that he slept right through them, I know it's going to be a while before I open the shop doors again. It was so sudden, I was completely unprepared for it, and I didn't get a chance to say goodbye.









I hope Jaguar will allow me this indulgence; showing a picture of Agi in memoriam, tail full of sawdust, giving my laptop a cat scan.

The twins are 4 1/2 months old now, and almost as big as Rita. I have a harder time telling them apart by sight alone now; Appa has always been larger and further along the developmental scale than Quad, but they seem to be on the same plateau now. Quad's head is becoming less rounded and more angular like his sister's, and both of their heads have sharper lines than Rita does. I will try to get some good headshots of all three critters for comparative purposes.


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## ALLOisaSAURUS

Sorry for your loss. Glad to hear Rita and the twins are doing well though.


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## untidyvenus

She's beautiful! and such a great story! All rats, domestic or wild, are suckers for treats. Since your such a great woodsmith (is that a thing?) if you want to have some fun, you may make her a toy like they use for parrots-

http://www.myparrotshop.com/hanging-toys/can-o-nuts-small/prod_141.html

its a little cylander with holes in the sides just to small to get a peanut out. in the top theres a bigger hole to shove them in through. I used to have this toy for my rats and they go NUTS for it (pun intended) plus shell on they have to work harder :3


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## Rat Daddy

My deepest sympathy and condolences.


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## littlekirari

I've just been catching up, what a lovely story and you're doing so well with your ratties! I can't wait to hear how they get on 

Also, I'm so sorry for the loss of your cat!  Cute fluffball.


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## lovemyfurries

Oh no!! I'm so sorry for your loss, the only consolation is the fact that she died in your arms. I've heard that cats like to go away from their homes and die alone when their time comes. She didn't. 

Really really feel your pain I lost my sable siamese on New Year's Eve, he was my hubby's heart rat, he can't even bear Mischief's name being mentioned, but he carries his little teddy and name tag in his bag wherever he goes.

Strongs to you! Glad the ratties are doing well. Your kitty cat was a beauty sawdust and all.


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## bloomington bob

So sorry about Agi Glad that Rita and family are doing well, and looking forward to hearing more about them.


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## Aenoria

Just finished reading through this thread. Amazing read. Glad your ratties are still well and I am sorry for your loss.


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## lovemyfurries

Sorry again I just realized I said she and not he!! That was stupid! We're really sorry to hear about this news


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## Kucero

Toward the beginning of this thread, there were a few who were very vocal in their displeasure over my decision to keep a wild animal captive. I have little doubt that this post will raise a few eyebrows, for similar reasons.

In learning everything I could about Eastern woodrats, I also studied Norways and roof rats and learned a great deal before I realized that woodrats and invasive rats aren't as closely related as I believed. I had spent a LOT of time working with the Eastern rodents and continuing my research, yet had never actually touched a real rat. I looked for ratteries near my area, and that's how I found a rat rescue about 15 miles from my house.

Darleen runs her rescue from inside her house, and does pretty well keeping everything running. At some point, some roof rats moved in and started chowing down in the storeroom. Time passed, and the invading rodents did what rodents do. They were very fruitful, and had a knack for multiplying. Pest control is out of the question, so I lent my assistance in the form of a few live capture traps. I started out with three; now I have 15. I don't know if I'm trapping them faster than they're breeding, but I've caught and released dozens of the critters.

I wondered if black rats, being social animals, would react differently toward attempts at domestication than the woodrats, so I started keeping the rats I caught for a while before releasing them. The difference between the species is interesting, but not nearly as remarkable as the difference rats of the SAME species have from one another.

I would be here for a long time if I relayed everything I learned, but I can lay out a few key points. Out of the 40-something rats I kept with me, only three of them seemed like they would never be domesticated. All three were males, two were adults, one was a juvenile. All three were terror-striken with no indication of relaxing, so I didn't keep them long.

Roughly 70% of the rats were babies, some as young as about six weeks. In all cases (except the three mentioned above), it took no longer than six hours before they agreed to hand feeding. About half of them were comfortable enough for hand feeding in less than two hours. The interesting thing is that there was absolutely no parallel to link age or gender with comfort level, which indicates that even in the wild, roof rats have vast differences in personality. Four juveniles and five babies became comfortable enough to hop on my hand to eat, and from that crowd, two juveniles and two babies were sitting on my shoulder, grazing on morsels, and not running away, in less than five days. None of the rats ever bit me.

Plenty of them did run away, but but never left the shop. Some stayed hidden for 7-8 days before I re-caught them, but most of them didn't revert to wild like I expected. Of those that I had to re-trap, I gave them a good meal and released them; I didn't keep them around to continue the domestication attempt a second time.

Only twice did I have a problem with incompatible cagemates. Maybe they were from different litters, but once they had their squeakfest skirmish, I separated them. Other than that, they were all very quiet.

In each of the cages I built, I had a wheel of the appropriate size. Babies were MUCH more likely to use an exercise wheel than the bigger ones, and those that did make use of the wheel were split into two groups: runners and riders. The runners' task is self-explanatory. The riders get inside the wheel, grab hold, and get flip over and over again while the runner supplies the power. It's actually intentional behavior; the riders seem to really like looping.

One other note on the wheel; a runner won't hesitate to dart over to the wheel and start running if it's startled or spooked. If he's already running when something startles him, he doubles the speed.

Two weeks ago, Darleen gave me a couple of juvenile rescue rats to foster (I asked for them). They have been nothing but adorable and loving, and I really need to return them before I get too attached. I didn't include any ramps in the cage I made for them because every ramp I ever made for the woodrats was ignored; the preferred method of vertical travel was the wire mesh I use to make the cages. The roof rats, like the woodrats, can even move around upside down, gripping the mesh at the top of the cage. So it surprised me to see the fancy rats straining to hoist themselves between levels, and they could only go up, not down. Needless to say, they didn't have to do without ramps for very long.

In two weeks, neither of them has shown any interest in the wheel. I've seen them go through it to move from one side of the cage to the other, but neither of them has done a single revolution.

All of the interaction with the wild roof rats raised a question whose answer I have no way of finding out. The personalities of the roof rats varied greatly, which made some more biased toward being comfortable around people than others. Quad and Appa have different personalities from one another, and both of them are different than Rita, so by extension, I'm comfortable assuming that personality differences between Eastern woodrats is common. So now I'm wondering where my three woodrats sit on that domestication bias scale.

Sorry to leave this unfinished, but I feel like if I keep typing, my eyes are going to start bleeding.


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## bloomington bob

Great to see you posting again. As you know, I was one of those who strongly objected in the beginning to yourkeeping Rita captive, but totally reversed myself. Your experiences with the roof rats is very interesting. If you haven't done so, you should read gotchea's posts about her wonderful roof rat Wilder.


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## mimsy

I think the fancy rats you got just are not accustomed to a lot exercise. Many can and will climb up and down wire cages and can easily climb along upside down along the top.

I have a mix of 3 fancy rats and 12 half wild rats. Differences -well I don't really think there are any to be honest. The personalities of course differ from each other, but as you suggest I think that is just rats -they differ. I also have several runners of the wheel. 2 of which are both runners when something upsets them. One is a domestic and one is a half wild-both are girls. Vacuuming in the same room and its definitely time to run the wheel. I love you noticing the ones who obviously like to loop.  I have one of those (1/2 wild girl) and it's just funny...much like us humans on a roller-coaster I suppose. Now my 2 biggest runners are a 1 year old female domestic (so no youngster) and a 4 month old 1/2 wild girl. 

I hope to hear more of your musings. I like comparing to what I see from my group and causing me to consider what makes each so uniquely different from each other.

We had a few years back a much smaller invasion (than the one you speak of) of roof rats at our home. We managed to catch them all with traps. It was 4 young rats, probably around 6-7 weeks old and 1 who was probably 3-3 1/2 month old one. It was the dead of winter here and we kept them through till spring and then released them in a nearby forest. We did not try to tame them, since we knew we would release. But I did find it interesting how most were of course quite frightened when I cleaned out the cage or fed and watered them. However one was completely unperturbed by me and even would allow me to pet it without seeming to be all that upset by it. As hard as it was I kept myself from doing much with him however cause I didn't want him to "tame" really. btw-no one ever bit us out of those either, even though most were quite frightened.

My 1/2 wild were raised from babies here and handled from day one so they are all no different from any fancy rat as far as tameness except that they are all the typical agouti wild looking rats.


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## lovemyfurries

Very interesting and informative read. Gosh I can't believe you've done so much already and to think you only started out by catching the little 'vermin' that was destroying your shop. Speaking of your workshop, have you managed to go back yet hard as it is/was? Good to hear from you again and wow you've been busy


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## Rat Daddy

In the earliest days of the rat fancy, black and Norway rats were in head to head competition for which would become the "pet rat". There were classes for both in shows. With the now almost legendary capture of the first albino Norway rat in the cemetery and the creation of a lab rat strain from it... Norway rats found a safe and stable place in commerce. Business were breeding them for profit. This gave them an anchor. During WW1 and the Spanish Flu the rat fancy took a big hit as did every hobby in GB. To make matters worse for the black rat changes in architecture gave the stronger and more aggressive Norway Rat the ability to pretty much wipe out it's black rat competition "in the wild". Although there's a strain of green, black rats that someone managed to develop, that and black rats in general pretty much evaporated from the fancy while new varieties of Norway Rats attracted the attention of hobbyists. 

I suppose, black rats also tend to need a more varied diet, prefer a warmer environment and may or may need a larger gene pool than their Norway counterparts. During WW1 we can assume that heat and food were at a premium and keeping a large and diverse rattery was a luxury few could afford. I haven't seen any real documentation that describes the extinction of the black rat in the rat fancy, but there's also nothing that would indicate that they made for bad pets. There were other small animal pets to be had after the war and pretty much no one missed the black rats... You also don't see too many squirrel cages made after WW 1 and people were more likely to own parrots than ravens. As there were domesticated options, people stopped trapping their own pets...

Having had a part wild rat, I absolutely concur, she was one of the sweetest rats we have ever owned... I'll still caution anyone against frightening one or angering it, mine bit hard, fast and repetitively when pushed too hard, she could easily out jump and out climb any domestic rat I've ever owned... she was actually quite remarkable, if not a bit of an insurance liability.

With Norway rats, I have always suspected that someone could tame an adult, but because they are darn fast and can really hurt you when they bite, it would make for a real hazardous project. Conventional wisdom for the past 100 years or so has been to avoid wild Norway rats. Having raised a part wild, I've done a bit of research and I'm pretty firmly convinced that half wild and even all wild Norway rats can be very successfully socialized if adopted young enough without much real risk to the humans as long as they exercise a little bit of care and have some experience with rats. 

Gotchea's experience with Wilder actually proved that a wild black rat could be raised from a pup to become a true shoulder rat... Not many brown rats can become true shoulder rats, and a black rat proving he could do it was really enlightening.

Unfortunately when you introduced wood rats to the equation, I think you found out just how conservative this fancy can be... Things are done a certain way... well because things have always been done a certain way. There were those that protested when I introduced indoor/outdoor shoulder rats, those who objected to Wilder and those who displeased about wood rats joining the fraternity. They are actually well meaning people who care very much about animals, but they forget that long ago all rats in the fancy were essentially wild rats and that like anything else, the fancy has to evolve. 

Domestic wood rats that live 9 years would make an excellent addition to our fancy, as would black rats, that can handle warmer temperatures would be great furry friends for folks that live in hot climates. But someone has to be the pioneer, and I for one think we should support every well thought out effort to do the research.

Having trained rats outdoors, I completely concur with your findings about rat personality. My observations pertain to how rats handle stress. Rats seem to have an individual stress threshold or a point at which they panic. Our best true shoulder rat just didn't panic. Yes she got frightened, but she always acted predictably. I took her into a tire shop where compressors and air guns terrified her, but she didn't lose self control and bolt off. She rode home under a blanket shaking until we got back to the house, but she never broke training. Amelia, panicked and bolted off in any random direction as soon as her feet touched the pavement and she would let her bladder go as soon as we walked into a brightly lit store. Our part wild rat was also pretty well self controlled, but when she lost it, she would attack first then run. The black rats that ate from your hand and climbed up on your shoulder were those that could handle a high stress level. They were exploring the big interesting human. Those with a low stress threshold, panicked and bolted or cowered in fear. The fact that you made so much progress with older black rats does explain their early success in the fancy. I can't imagine that all of the rats brought into captivity were pups, if wild black rats can be socialized as adults, that would explain how they got popular so fast. And if they don't attack or bite, so much the better! Your work with black rats really does explain a lot about how the fancy got started and the part black rats played in the early days. With modern breeding know how and a wide variety of available foods, not to mention central heat being common, I think you're laying another cobblestone in the path for the eventual return of the black rat to the fancy. And of course your work with the wood rats is absolutely pioneering.

I'm glad you have the opportunity to work with a couple of domestic Norway rats as a frame of reference. It is no doubt giving you a better idea of how the wood rats differ from the fancy's standard rats.

It really is rather odd how things happen... we picked two rats out of a feeder bin, one turned out to be part wild, the other was the brilliant and intrepid Fuzzy Rat. They made me re-think everything I thought I knew about rats. Gotchea found a discarded black rat pup in her barn and we got Wilder, the first black true shoulder rat... and you had Rita invade your workshop giving us our first hands on experience with wood rats, not to mention Appa and Quad. And we all wound up here on the same forum... I know it all seems like a random chain of events, but in the past few years, this fancy is really beginning to change. 

Wild, part wild, half wild Norway rats, black rats, true shoulder rats of two species and more people really pushing their rats into more interesting life styles coming into the mainstream of a fancy that hasn't essentially changed since World War 1 makes this a very exciting time to be a rat parent. 

Lastly, how are Appa and Quad doing when it comes to "domestic living" are they indoor competent yet? Are they safe to explore the house or workshop and come back without tearing the house apart? Do they come to you for more than just food? Do they ever ask to play or snuggle? How far has their socialization come? And of course, how's Rita doing?

Thanks for keeping us posted.


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## Rat Daddy

I just received a private message from Kucero. He has asked me to let everyone know that he's presently attending to an urgent, private and deeply personal family matter which will prevent him from posting for a while. He has asked me to let everyone know that Rita, Appa and Quad are well and he is caring for them; top priority, as always.

I don't know when Kucero will be posting again, or if he will be responding to PM's for a while. Sometimes things just happen in our lives that need our undivided attention and our priorities have to be adjusted. Like everyone else, I look forward to his return to our community as soon as he is able. 

I understand, there's a certain degree of ambiguity or concern that some folks might feel regarding this post. Kucero, Rita, Quad and Appa have become a part of our collective experience and our extended internet family. We will all miss them while they are away. 

I'm sure Kucero will address any questions anyone might have as he feels appropriate when he returns, or not address them... that's his choice and we all need to respect his privacy.

Until then, I'm sure Kucero would like me to express his thanks and appreciation for your interest in and support for him and his furry family.


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## bloomington bob

Sorry to hear this Rat Daddy - all the best to Kucero


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## Kucero

I just re-read my original post on this thread. It was almost like I was reading someone else's post. Until I lost Agilarr, it was a joy to share my experiences with anyone interested enough to read about them.

The family matter Rat Daddy mentioned was a suicide. On February 9th, I found my son on his bedroom floor after he shot himself in the head with a 9mm he had smuggled from his grandfather's house. Searching his name, Auron Jacob Land, puts his obituary at the top of the screen. He would have been 15 in March. Auron was a happy kid, had his head in the clouds a lot, but he was profoundly moved by Agilarr's death and the effect it had on me, and he had an impulse control problem. I still wasn't able to get back into woodworking so soon after losing Agi, but the woodshop was where I happened to be when Auron pulled the trigger. I was working on some model rocket kits I had ordered with the intent to fly them with Auron that weekend.

It's not necessary to post replies expressing sympathy; I'd rather not have this thread locked or deleted for getting off topic. I don't have much of an update to offer, but I still plan to resume writing about my rodent escapades once the dust settles down, as long as I have a thread to return to. PMs are welcome, but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.










I had to buy a new house that still isn't ready yet; couldn't live in the place I used to call home. I haven't cut so much as a toothpick since January, and I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever. I still have my woodrat trio; they're all I have left. But since I have not had a place of my own, I have not been able to let them run free like I used to, but it won't be much longer before I'll be able to give them ample space.

The babies are nearly ten months old now. All available resources say that male woodrats won't reach sexual maturity before a full 12 months, but I don't see him getting bigger than he already is. Not fat, just...big. He caught up and passed Appa in size and weight, and both of them are bigger than Rita. Their fur is thicker, especially Quad's.

I will try to come back with pictures and more details soon.


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## Rat Daddy

Kucero,

You know, of course, as a dad myself, you have been in my thoughts and prayers. I'm very happy to see you back and I look forward to hearing all about how you, Rita, Appa and Quad are doing and what you have been up to. I look forward to your further adventures together.


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## lost_whisper

Since I joined the site I read all through the thread amazed at your stories and everything you came to find about roof rats and how you progressed at rat care-taking . I am glad that you came back and I'm looking forward to reading more about your furry friends soon. 
It seems that the availability of quality foods had a great impact on Quad and Appa's health. I figure that's the reason of their size and furs. If I were you, I would keep an eye on the babies. Animals (including people) often reach sexual maturity before than expected under certain lighting and feeding conditions. Female cats that receive artificial light for 8-10 hours a day tend to be on heat even in certain times of the year when feral cats would supposedly not. I know it's not the same, but since female humans that are well-fed also reach sexual maturity before others with a poor diet, I would just have it in mind.

I hope you and your critters can settle on your new home and that we hear from you very soon.


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## raindear

Words cannot express how sorry I am for what you are going through.

I am fairly new here and hadn't seen your thread before your post bumped it back to the top of the forum. I am glad it did. I have spent a few days reading the entire thread. I have enjoyed watching your adventure. Rita and her family are such beautiful little animals it is amazing no one apparently has made an attempt to make pets of them before. I look forward to seeing more of your adventures with them.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, Rita, Appa and Quad have another wood rat companion here at rat forum, I believe it's of the very uncommon Florida variety. It is an injured wild rescue rat that can't be released. As I recall the same person also has black rats... 

Sadly, I can't recall the person's name right now.. it's part of getting older...


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## KNITTYGIRL2

You are a brilliant writer! Love your story! Thank you!


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## MinorRobot

Rat Daddy said:


> Actually, Rita, Appa and Quad have another wood rat companion here at rat forum, I believe it's of the very uncommon Florida variety. It is an injured wild rescue rat that can't be released. As I recall the same person also has black rats...
> 
> Sadly, I can't recall the person's name right now.. it's part of getting older...


It's me! I have an Eastern Woodrat, Gus, (Neotoma floridana) and two roof rats, Claudia and Paula.

I haven't been around much, got busy with school and stuff, but I wanted to come back and give an update on Gus, for posterity. Thought this thread would be a good place to do it, might help Kucero with his efforts. And I'd like to say briefly, that my heart goes out to you Kucero, and I'm very sorry for your loss.

Gus is full grown now, or nearly so (not sure of their growth patterns), and he definitely built differently than my two roof rats. While my girls are light and lean, Gus is more robust. He has a much shorter tail. He's softer, almost squishy. His fur is softer as well. 

I made a thread a while ago about his issues with balance and spinning and his malformed eye. Took him to two vets, did some medications, but no change. I suspect either a birth defect or neurological damage due to trauma (leaning towards the former). At any rate, he's definitely a little "special", but it doesn't seem to slow him down much. He is playful and active, and very affectionate. His balance and motor skills are definitely affected, and probably his vision in his bad eye at least, but besides that he seems pretty normal in his behavior (not that I have much to compare it to).

He is content to run around my bed while I do homework or whatever. Unlike my roof rats, he doesn't try to venture off. While Claudia and I have a close bond and she is definitely affectionate towards me, she likes to go off exploring and she's constantly on the move. Like I said, Gus will run around, but he seeks me out much more often and likes to cuddle up next to me or spin in circles on me. I don't know if it's a male vs female thing, a species thing, or related to his condition, but he's definitely more of a lap rat. He doesn't know his name the way Claudia knows hers, but he does seem to understand when I am calling him.

Overall he's very tame. Sometimes when I wake him up from a dead sleep he seems a bit out of it and can be aggressive, but I don't think that's that strange. If I'm not careful he will bite me, but not very hard. I think it's just confusion and a natural reaction to being woken up unexpectedly. He is also not neutered, so maybe there's a bit of a territory thing going on (but he never bites at any other time). He makes these really weird noises when he's in his cranky just-woke-up state. Almost like a sneeze or a snort? I was worried he was having respiratory issues when I first heard it, but I've realized that's just the noise he makes.

He does have more of an odor than my roof rat ladies. Musty, but I wouldn't call it unpleasant as long as it doesn't get too strong. I've found keeping the cage clean helps not only with the cage itself but also on him.

My (limited) experience with roof rats has taught me that to really tame them and have them be handleable you have to separate them from the litter while they're still very small (basically when they first start jumping). I was a softy and left Paula with her siblings for too long. While she'll come to me on her own terms and let me pick her up, she is no where near as tame as Claudia, who was raised alone almost since birth and lets me grab her and pretty much handle her however I please.

Gus was not separated from his siblings until it was time for them to be released (between 1 1/2-2 months I think). It was during the release that a staff member noticed his spinning and brought him back for me to take. I'm not sure if Gus' friendly nature is another result of being "special" or if it's a species thing. I know woodrats aren't as social as roof rats, so maybe they don't socialize with their siblings the same way?

I've raised other roof rat and woodrat litters, and the woodrats do seem a bit more laid back. Roof rats are constantly trying to escape, even as babies, and are very very good at it. If left together they develop a fear of people early on and, given the chance, will run away as soon as they are able. Woodrat babies don't seem nearly as concerned with escaping, and while I'm sure they would run if felt threatened they don't seem to develop the same flightiness the roof rat babies do, at least not at as young and age.


That's about all I can think of for now. Hopefully someone finds this useful. I might post some links to pictures and a video on him spinning, I just got to get them off my phone.


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## MinorRobot

So I was doing some rat research the other night, and I found something that I thought might be worth sharing here.

I was wondering about "8.6 years" thing for the captive lifespan. Is it true? Was that just one really old outlier rat that was documented? Did someone smudge their clipboard and turn a 3 into 8?

I decided to see if there were any academic/scientific papers out there working with captive wood rats that might mention their lifespan. Turns out the Key Largo subspecies, _Neotoma floridana smalli_, is endangered and they have instituted a captive breeding program at Disney's Animal Kingdom (kinda cool!). 

Anyway, an article on renal disease in aged Key Largo woodrats from this breeding program was pretty interesting (they use the abbreviation KLWR to mean Key Largo Woodrats btw)...



> Thirteen adult KLWRs (greater than 1 year old) were necropsied from August 2005 to April 2009. Seven animals were 4 years old or younger at the time of death and showed no evidence of renal pathology. Six animals were 4.5 years of age or older at the time of death, and 5 had evidence of severe renal pathology.


That's nearly half the animals older that 4.5 years (and in some cases this is minimum age, as they were wild-caught). Of the 5 that showed evidence of renal pathology, three were over 5 years old.

Later in the paper....



> The expected life span of KLWRs in the wild or in captivity is not definitively known. A retrospective review of husbandry records from the captive-breeding population indicate that 5.5 to 6 years of age may be the maximum life span for this species. It is concluded that the animals in this report were of advancing age for this species and that chronic renal disease is an age-limiting condition.


It's no 8.6, but 5.5-6 years is still pretty impressive! Not sure how relevant this is to regular old _Neotoma floridana floridana_, but since they are so closely related I'm going to assume they have similar lifespans.


So that's neat, but I also wanted to touch on this renal pathology thing that keeps getting mentioned. Basically, most of the old rats (and none of the young rats) had jacked-up kidneys and their issues closely resemblemed something seen in lab Norway rats- Chronic progressive nephropathy or CPN. I don't want to get too technical, but I'm mentioning that so that this quote will make sense...



> The woodrats in this report were considered aged animals and were fed an ad libitum diet high in protein. Since age and inherent susceptibility of the species to this disease cannot be controlled, dietary manipulation may be an important management tool for CPN in KLWRs. Although it was believed that the high-protein diet increased the reproductive potential of the captive KLWR population, this diet may have inadvertently limited the life span of the adult animals and exacerbated the development of renal pathology. Reduction of dietary protein and/or restriction of caloric intake decreases the progression and severity of CPN in laboratory rats and should be considered for captive populations of KLWRs.


Basically, limiting protein and caloric intake helps CPN in Norway lab rats, so they suspect the high protein diet is a factor in the kidney issues in these Key Largo Woodrats.

So what counts as high/low protein diets? Well, here's the numbers used to curb CPN in the Norways...



> Decreasing the dietary protein concentration from 23% to 15% in [Norway lab rats susceptible to CPN] decreased the severity of CPN lesions.


and here's some number on what the KLWR were getting vs. what they get in the wild...



> The composition of the KLWR rodent block was 26% protein, 7.7% fat, 33% starch/carbohydrate, and 10% neutral digestible fiber... ...Wild diet items of the KLWR are generally lower in protein, lower in starch, and significantly higher in neutral digestible fiber than the diet fed to the animals in this report.


(they also mentioned limiting caloric intake but I didn't see any numbers)

Not only was the KLWR's diet higher in protein than their wild diet, but it was also higher than the "high-protein" diets used to study how diet affects CPN in norway lab rats.


So, basically, watch the protein. I think most rodent blocks are well under 26% protein anyway (I know the stuff I get is) but I thought this was some pretty interesting info.

They do leave us on a bit of a downer, though...


> Even with dietary manipulation, chronic renal disease may be a significant age-limiting condition in captive populations of this endangered species.


So kidney issues might happen anyway, which sucks, BUT I think 5+ years is still pretty good!

OK hope this wasn't too confusing to read. If anyone wants to actual paper let me know, I can send you a pdf or something (can't link it though, it's behind a paywall but I have access through my university library).


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## bloomington bob

This is really interesting. It's seems they do have a pretty long lifespan though. Lowering the percentage of protein in the diet is also used as a treatment for kidney disease in humans. It would be interesting to see an age comparison between wild and captive wood rat populations, or at least a study where captive populations were fed a similar diet to wild wood rats.


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## Mannie'sMom

You're a natural born story teller. I enjoyed this so much I blogged it--giving you credit, of course--so others who wander by my spot can enjoy your loving behavior and Rita, of course. ✍(◔◡◔)


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## lost_whisper

I named one of my girls Appa for your rat, just couldn't resist it.


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## Kucero

I'm really glad I came back today. Some of the comments here have managed to brighten my day in what has otherwise been an unyielding flood of darkness.

MinorRobot, have you treated us to any Gus photos yet? From the way you've described him, I'm 99% certain you have an Allegheny woodrat, neotoma magister. They are very similar to Eastern woodrats in appearance, but typically larger in size. But what really sets the Magisters apart is how they interact with us. This is taken directly from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation's website:

"Allegheny woodrats have an agreeable disposition around people and are generally docile when handled, and easily captured in live traps. When captured they are usually calm, and often thump their hind feet in response to perceived threats. Woodrats are remarkably unafraid when free ranging and are often in no hurry to head for cover once released. We once watched a woodrat take bait containers from our trapping pack, and have heard of animals trying to remove buttons from a person's shirt and drag away the blanket of a sleeping camper."

Meanwhile, a wild Eastern woodrat who has no previous interaction with people is 60% likely to soil itself upon being given a dirty look in a first encounter, 100% likely to flee in terror, and 75% likely to soil itself while fleeing in terror. Okay, so that is a huge exaggeration. I don't remember whether I went into detail about the first few times Rita and I crossed paths, but she didn't seem very perturbed by my presence, as long as I was at a distance. She and Quad seem to be 100% comfortable with me now. Appa, maybe 80%. But I'll be able to tell soon enough whether that translates into being handled.

The 8.6-year lifespan might be a mistake, but not mine. It's what I read. I saw this same figure on several sites, which does less to prove its veracity than it does to indicate that it was a single example that provided the statistical tidbit for everyone else, myself included. But if a deer mouse can, according to Wikipedia, achieve a life span of 96 months, it's not so farfetched to believe a woodrat can live a few months beyond that.

If you "wood" (haha), compare the differences in N. floridana and N. magister. The Allegheny isn't rare or endangered, but it's less common than Eastern woodrats by a good margin.


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## JAnimal

I just read the whole thread. Wow you have done an amazing job with those rats. You have so much passion, will, and determination just to get them captured. Then you managed to care for them and make them as bonded as they can be. Me? If I had those rats they would have been dead because of my lack of most things needed to care for wild rats. Now I must express my condolences for you beautiful cat and a wonderful son. And now to get this more cheery. You building the cages made me inspired and now my rats have a new set of wood toys. Completely safe of course. I look foreword to more of your posts good luck with the little scamps


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## MinorRobot

Kucero- yeah, I didn't mean to imply the 8.6 year number from life span came from you. I'd seen it on a number of sites, and like you kind of mentioned, wondered if it was a commonly documented occurance or an instance of it just being repeated by many sources. So that's what prompted me looking it up.

I'm on mobile and about to get ready for work so I can't get too into is now but I am pretty positive it's not an Allegheny woodrat. For one, I live in Florida and I don't think we really get them down here (but an could be misinformed). The behavior difference could be from his neurological issues or the fact that he was hand raised, and once adopted by me I spend a lot of time with him every day (hours, sometimes). So maybe that's it? And fwiw he does like to be under cover a lot of the time, especially if I leave him alone.

But, anyway, you have given me doubts that he's a woodrat at all! I was told he was, and he definitely looks like one, but at first glance all rats sort of look alike don't they? I've never really questioned it before. In the past hour I've swung from woodrat to norway rat to roof rat back to woodrat! It's quite the existential crisis over here lol.

I'll do some more research and get back to you (with pictures) when I have a moment. In the mean time, if it's possible for you to post pictures of your rats' tails so that I could compare them to Gus that'd be really helpful!


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## bloomington bob

It's great to see you back Kucero! I'm really glad Rita and Quad have come along so far and that Appa is progressing as well.Thanks for the interesting info on Allegheny woodrats.

Looking forward to a further update on Gus MinorRobot!


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## Kucero

I could double the length of this thread if I went into detail about everything that went wrong with my attempts to get the new house situated, but I can paint a general idea by saying if I had written a list (before making the purchase) of everything I could think of that could possibly go wrong, the list would not have been half as long as what actually did go wrong. It's still not settled, but at least it's finally livable.

I thought for a long time about letting Rita go. Since I didn't see myself getting back into woodworking anytime soon, if ever, maybe I could just let Rita have the run of the place, as she was so determined to do throughout the catch-and-escape game we played. When a backhoe operator severed the power line running to the woodshop, I figured it was time. I set her cage down inside, opened the door, and sat a couple of feet away. It took a couple of minutes, but she emerged from her little house and approached the open door, her whiskers a blur, and when she finally made her exit, she didn't seem like she was in a hurry. She actually went back toward the cage a couple of times, but didn't go in, and paused to look at me once or twice. Eventually, she disappeared from sight; she was finally home. I left her cage there as I got up to leave, and knowing that she would be so much happier being home and having the whole place to herself didn't stop the ache I was feeling. I had told myself I wasn't going to cry over a silly rat, but as I walked back to the house, I asked "Why not?" of myself, and let the tears come.

The babies didn't seem to notice; at least, they didn't act differently until a couple of days later when I heard Quad making "woodrat sounds". At first, I thought he must be super hungry, but no, he was talking to his mama. And there was Rita, casually nibbling on a tidbit that must have fallen out of Quad's cage. Of course, I was very happy to see her again, but I couldn't have her loose in the house, not with the cat my dad had insisted I adopt. She must have climbed in through the dryer port, but I have no idea how she managed to sneak past that ever-watchful cat. Long story short, I retrieved her cage and put it back where it was before, left the door open, and she went back to her little house. I didn't see her actually get in the cage, but she's stealthy.

The twins had their first birthday last month, and they're full-grown now. Unfortunately, I've had to keep the three of them in separate cages, and I can't let more than one out at a time because I'm afraid they will hurt each other. The last time I did that, the twins went right at each other, formed a ball and started rolling while they tussled for less than two seconds before I separated them. It was alarming because they didn't make a sound, not like the squeaks that accompanied their disagreement over a green bean (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boLvS1KU33Y). Not only that, but they completely forgot all about me, and even though I was sure I was going to get a nasty bite or two by separating them, it didn't happen.

Whenever I let them out separately, most of the time, they head straight to the other one's cage to see what's happening there. But they do like to eat, and they have several ways of telling me they're hungry. Rita found a spot on her cage that she likes to chew, and she does this to get my attention. She does this rapidly, like 4-5 times per second, and this produces what has to be in the top 3 most aggravating sounds in the world. Appa goes to her water bottle. If I look at her and she keeps going on with the bottle, she's fine. If she comes over to the side of the cage closest to me and climbs up the wall, she's demanding food. Quad has a couple of empty tin cans that he likes tossing around when he feels neglected. He literally makes them airborne.

All three of them are constantly rearranging their homes. Whether I let them out for feeding or pass tidbits through the mesh, I still can't feed them all at once, so while one's being fed, the other two get cranky, and they show this either by moving stuff around aggressivly, or bouncing off the walls and floor, trying to get my attention. Quad actually talks to me sometimes by making those woodrat sounds that are so hard to describe. It's not really chittering, but that's the closest description I can come up with.

Sometimes, if I've been away for a few hours, am usually greeted by three white bellies when I return. What happens when you take a handful of wet toilet paper and throw it at a wall? That's what these woodrats resemble when they greet me; all three of them cling to the wall and just hang there until I bring food.

And all three are different when they're actually being fed. When Quad gets a bite, he stays where he is and chows down, then wants more. He's the most enthusiastic by far when it comes to filling the belly. Rita is much more calm about it. Appa can be downright rude about it. She'll take a bite, then run off to eat it. Sometimes, she'll stop before taking whatever I'm offering and **** her head to the side, as though listening to the voices in her head telling her whether to eat or not, crazy thing. I still try new things with them. So far, Quad has eaten everything I've offered. Appa is much more particular. A couple of times, and I am not making this up, she has expressed her disapproval by putting her back to me and deliberately relieving herself.

Quad and Appa show feats of strength that still amaze me. They climb up, down, and sideways. Going down is usually nose-first, and I've seen both Quad and Rita actually hang by their back feet. At the end of every meal, each of them gets as many nuts as they can carry in one trip. Appa, being the hide-and-go-eat type, doesn't get much. Quad and Rita both will fill their mouths, and it really is a sight; they will actually use their paws to shove them into the best carrying position, and each of them can carry several peanuts in one trip. Quad is usually on the wall during this time, usually in a corner, and will keep himself perched using only his hind legs while his little "hands" are busy stuffing his face.

I have a few pictures to share, but imgur.com is down, so I'll have to put them in the next post.


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## mimsy

It's interesting that Rita decided by choice to live with you. What an honor! Being a wild wood rat she knows the dangers and hardship of taking care of herself. She must of decided that living with the big hairless rat is a much better life.


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## Rat Daddy

I'm kind of sure I once wrote that rats made pretty bad display animals but do make for very competent companion animals... Wood rats might not be brown or black rats in this regard, but it sounds like Rita's moved in to stay... life is just better with the big guy in the comfy home and her family than outdoors on her own. I'm not entirely surprised, as I don't think rats think see living with humans and "captivity". Still, it's promising to note that Rita is of course a wood rat and as such doesn't need to follow the rules typical of brown or black rats... 

I also mentioned that brown and black rats will both understand you and learn to communicate with you. And it sounds like your woodies have managed that too. Even with brown rats, every rat is different in this ability and makes up it's own language, but to some extent it sounds like your guy and gals have gotten the idea that they can influence your behavior. Again, it's a pleasant turn of events and a real success on your part and theirs.

I can't say whether Quad and Appa were fighting, playing or mating at this point. They should be pretty much adults now and anything is possible. You not getting bitten and neither of them getting hurt suggests that they weren't necessarily in the heat of mortal combat. This is a tough call and most certainly not without it's risks. I wouldn't dream of giving advise here... and I doubt there are many experts on the subject, well more expert than you are at this point. So you have to call it as you see it.

As to domestic cats and rats... mostly cats killing brown rats is a myth. In fact when our part wild rat went native outdoors, she chased all of the feral cats out of our yard... First she rubbed herself with the scent of the neighbor's pit bull terriers, but mostly she tore up anything that came close enough to touch her. No, rats don't kill cats for the most part, but they do attack the face and they are very fast and vicious, biting deep fast and often. When upset, our part wild rat turned into a ball of fur, fangs and claws. She was a blur of nastiness. In fact she looked like the cartoon tazmanian devil. Smart cats stay clear of rats and stick to mice and more defenseless rodents... Again, I can't say if wood rats are as capable of defending themselves as wild brown rats are, and I certainly wouldn't take and chances, but there's a possibility your cat might get hurt during a mixup with your rats as much as there's a chance your cat might kill your rats... or it might be smart enough to keep it's distance. In any event, despite my curiosity, this is an experiment that's absolutely not worth doing.

Our brown rats do tend to develop individual personalities, mostly because they are learning animals. The more an animals learns from it's environment and peers and the less it relies on pre-programmed instinct, the more individual it's personality will become. The fact that each of your wood rats is developing it's own individual personality actually says a lot about his or her ability to learn and adapt and that perhaps that they do have a future as human companion animals. 

As to moving into a new home... been there and done that and surprises come in the package deal. When my wife pulled down the wall paper, the plaster walls came down with it... and that was only day one. And while I was appreciating my wife's handiwork I realize that someone had left the doors open and a breeze from the salt marsh had blown in a cloud of biting mosquitoes. So much for night one... And then things got really interesting... but you know what I'm talking about.

I'd just like to add that I feel it's unfortunate that you aren't woodworking any more. Despite what happened, I think it was a real passion of yours and will bring you comfort in time. When we tend to get distressed we tend to give up our passions and our interests and I think that may do us more harm than good when we stop expressing ourselves creatively. But that's just my opinion, you should do what feels right when you are up to it again.

"Congrats" on your new home... may you find happiness there and of course...

Best luck.


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## MinorRobot

I logged in today to finally come back to this thread and it looks like I wasn't alone! What a coincidence!

Anyway, I wanted to give an update on Gus, the mystery rat! After talking to someone who has a lot of rat experience, and who has kept both brown rats and roof rats (as well as pouring over google images) I've come to the conclusion that he is... *drum roll* a roof rat!

I feel sort of silly that I didn't recognize him as one, seeing as those are the only rats I've ever really known, but in my defense I was going off information from someone I know to be pretty knowledgeable about wild rats. And he really did look much different as a baby! I think this could be due to perhaps being with mom longer, so he was getting better nutritional than rats who were orphaned earlier and therefore much rounder/bigger. Plus normal variation.
Even as an adult he looks different from my girls, but again, I think this can be explained by normal variation and sex difference, plus the fact that he's got a slight deformity and whatever issue he has causes him to move much differently than my girls do. So visually he just leaves a very distinct impression.

Anyway, here are some pictures! A rare moment where he was still (usually at least his head is waving around), and actually looks very handsome! You can see his eye deformity as well.
















And here is a video of him spinning:




It's a short one because it's Snapchat to my friend, showing her how much he loves to whack me in the face!

So, I guess the case is closed. I was initially a little bummed I wasn't going to get all those extra years with him, but it is what it is!


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## beardedrage

I stayed up until 4 am last night reading all of this and I was too tired to reply then, but I feel like I should now since I can't stop thinking about this story. I dedicated at least four hours of my time laying in bed reading though all 33 pages and I'm so glad I did. it was an emotional rollercoaster but a great read. thanks so much for sharing, even the parts that I know were difficult. I hope all is well with you. by the way, since Rita came back, are you keeping her for good?


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## bloomington bob

Thanks for the update Kucero! I'll respond in detail when I have more time - and thank you too Minor!


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## Kucero

I used to call each of them individually when it was time to feed them, but it didn't work very well. After a few months and several alterations, it got shortened all the way down to the dinner call they recognize today: "It's babies!"

Whenever that announcement is made, Quad's head immediately appears from inside his tunnel house. Sometimes his head just pops out and freezes while he seems to stare at nothing directly in front of them; at other times, he'll look in my direction as though to say, "Wait, really? What're we having?" Appa will sometimes skitter from the back of her cage to the front, running on the wire mesh wall sideways. If she was sleeping, she will take her time, stretch, yawn, and hop toward the front. She definitely moves faster if I've given Quad a bit of tortilla chip or fortune cookie, because she can hear him crunching. Rita sometimes waits to come out of her house until after the twins have been fed and I've put everything away.

Of the three, Rita is the most particular about her food. If it's something new she's not sure about, she will open her mouth for a taste ever so slowly (I mean REALLY slow) before gently taking it from me and settling down to consume it. Appa doesn't hesitate quite so much, but she won't take anything if she's not hungry, or if it's not what she wants. Quad takes anything I give him with great enthusiasm.

The difference in their eating preferences is both interesting and frustrating. Appa is the only one that really likes banana chips. Quad and Rita both like pickles. But their favorite treat, bar none, is a few peanuts. If Rita is being a diva and refusing to leave the house because she doesn't believe I have something good unless she can smell it, all I have to do is rattle a can of peanuts. She sometimes comes out in two stages; first the head pops out so she can look at me, followed by the rest of her. Appa climbs up and down the wall in anticipation. Quad just falls apart; he runs and bounces here and there, throws things around inside his cage, and he'll even chitter at me if I don't feed him first. He's still the only one that has "talked" to me.

When I tried to figure out how to get some oats into their cages without making a mess, I inadvertently came up with a toy-treat. Take some oats, roll/fold them up into a piece of paper and crimp the ends, then watch them gleefully shred the paper to get to the yummies inside. I wryly thought to myself that it looked like I was rolling a large "illegal cigarette" after the first one was finished. Gives new meaning to the term "rolled oats".

They also like the paper for nesting material, especially Quad. He sat down with the first piece of paper I gave him and gnawed it into confetti in seconds. It looked like an old cartoon with a crow eating an ear of corn.

I finally got some pictures to work:












This was taken in March, when Quad was just six months old.




















And these are new. He's full-grown now. I just love his cute little face!












It might look like Rita's eating in this picture. Not so. She was using her tiny little hands to cram as much corn as possible into her mouth, as though making two trips was impossible.












She's always loved the little "house" I made just for her, but she didn't likee the perfectly round 2" doorway I made. She knocked her house off the top level of the cage, and instead of hitting the basement, it jammed between the first floor and the cage wire. I left it like that to see if she'd do anything interesting, and she didn't disappoint. She took a LOT of substrate and filled it to the point that she couldn't get in without gnawing at the top of the doorway. What used to be a perfect circle now looks more like a two-tiered snowman. Obviously, this picture was taken before she did her remodeling, but you can see evidence of rodent gnawings along the top part of the circle.












Appa at six months...












...and Appa just a couple of weeks ago. This is a good example of the wet-wad-of-toilet-paper-thrown-against-the-wall analogy I used in a previous post, but I just thought of something else these critters resemble when they're demanding to be fed; those aquarium fish that suck on/stick to the glass.

Don't be fooled by that pudgy little body, though. I've seen all three of them climb straight down, nose pointed at the ground, but Appa seems every bit as comfortable climbing down face-first as she is climbing up...or running sideways. She grew up racing up and down the cage every time Quad got on the wheel. I don't know if it was a nervous reaction or something else, but if Quad was exercising, so was Appa.

After deciding that Quad had outgrown his cage, I bought one online; not a genuine cage made specifically for rats, but one for g-pigs and rabbits. The bars are spaced an inch apart from center to center, so there's a little less than an inch of space for him to try to squeeze through. He won't be able to do it. But I have a problem; the cage is MUCH bigger than I thought it would be. It's two feet wide, two feet high, and four feet long. Sixteen cubic feet. There's a place for a divider in the center...I could put two rats on each side of the divider, and they'd still have 8 cubes each.

The problem I'm having is that I don't know what to put into the cage, besides substrate and random junk that I know pack rats like. I have a really nice chinchilla wheel to put in there, but I wanted to put something else that he'd be happy with, and I have no clue what to do. Maybe he'd like some old towels thrown in there. I'd really love some suggestions!


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## bloomington bob

Thanks for these updates! Great see see all the photos - so cute!


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## susb8383

I agree with deedeeiam. Any animal living in the wild is used to things you just can't provide, especially lots of space. To keep a wild animal caged up isn't good, unless you have no choice like if it is too injured to release. I've caught wild rats and released them a few miles away in a forest.


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## Rat Daddy

susb8383

I'm a strong believer that animals of any significant intelligence shouldn't be caged. But rats, dogs, cats and likely several other species of animals tend to enjoy living with humans and sharing a household. In the case of these wood rats, Rita, the mom actually moved in with Kucero and Appa and Quad have lived with him all of their lives. I'm more than certain that they could have escaped if they wanted to, rats being smart, small and crafty and a house is not too much of a barrier to a rat that wants out or in.

We had a part wild rat that lived outdoors in our yard and neighborhood all summer, for some reason she didn't come when called or back in until winter. But when it turned cold outside she was happy to be home again. 

It's important that we don't lump all animal - human relationships into the same trash can. My mom raised a squirrel for example back in the 1950's. When the squirrel was old enough she let him go... He moved into the oak tree in the yard, but came into the house every morning for breakfast with my mom and often followed her around when she did her chores. She didn't even have a cage for him. And although we do have a cage for our rats, they are very rarely in it. Mostly they prefer to build nests of their own around the house.

I realize the myth of the grand life in the wild is forever stuck in our imagination, maybe that's why so many people watch "Alaskan Bush People" but in reality most rats prefer the easy life with their human families and given a choice they love their comfy homes.

We've trained 4 true shoulder rats and here's a video of Fuzzy Rat...

https://vid.me/BzNQ 

We were out at the park and you may notice she's tired of free ranging in the rain and is leading me back to the car. Yes when the weather was nicer she often ran off to explore on her own, but she always came back on her own too. About the only thing we ever didn't let her do was to date wild boy rats. And with all of the times we lost her, I can't say for certain if we were successful or just got lucky.

Now, I'll grant you we did raise one pup that really didn't want to live with us.... she spent her time around windows and doors and looking for ways out of the house and as soon as she was old enough and became outdoor competent she ran off... and perhaps, I don't disagree, maybe she belonged on her own... but all of the other rats we've raised, domestic and part wild were happy to be part of our family and they all had the option of running away at some time or another. And yes, I very much do mean that. During shoulder rat training every rat has several opportunities to run away and it isn't until they have proven that they won't and don't want to that they take their final true shoulder rat exam which looks like this...









And yes, that's Max AKA Maxie Rat taking and passing her final true shoulder rat exam, she outdoors, at night under the fireworks, no leash or tether... and she was only 6 weeks old at the time. She lived just about her whole life free range in the house and was never a captive of any kind... She was a family member, like Rita, Appa and Quad are part of Kucero's family.

While no rat should ever be kept captive in a cage, both domestic and wild type rats can become part of a human family.


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## Kucero

I thought everything related to the evils of keeping wild animals caged up had already been said. "To keep a wild animal caged up isn't good" is not an absolute whose only variance depends on the animal's capacity for independence. I could just as easily argue that to capture a wild prey animal and dump it miles from its home into unfamiliar territory where it is very likely to be eaten before it can even find temporary cover "isn't good". If you've no problem having that on your conscience, rest assured that you're pursuing the popular venue. I chose to take on the responsibility of keeping her alive while preventing her from destroying my woodshop, where she was determined to stay. I was never 100% certain I made a good choice until I released her inside the very woodshop she loved so much, just letting her have her way, and she showed me what she really wanted by finding her way inside my house and went right back inside the cage I had made for her. She was free again, and she CHOSE to return to me. Please don't try to cheapen it by saying I've skewed her natural instincts. Who's to say that any other woodrat wouldn't make that same decision if they knew what Rita does? Maybe there are things I "just can't provide," but Rita seems to think that what I do provide outweighs what I can't.

My selfish perspective plays a part in this, of course. I had a beautiful, gentle cat that died suddenly and unexpectedly in my arms four days ago last year. Then on February 9th, I found my only child's body with a hole through his head. No amount of hindsight shows any indication he was even contemplating suicide, and the last words we said to each other were expressions of love, but no amount of therapy and support groups can make those memories of when I found him any less raw or painful. He LOVED these woodrats. He would often declare "They're SO CUTE!" through clenched teeth, almost like he was frustrated with them for being more adorable than he could tolerate. Now, interacting with them brings me some small comfort. If I thought they were miserable, I would not have kept them this long, but I can promise that these wild animals are happy with the arrangement we have. They communicate with me, I interact with them, and I'm pretty good about introducing new things to them to stimulate interest and activity.

It might not be ideal in everyone's eyes, but the matriarch has honored me with her seal of approval, and that "is good" enough for me.


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## Rat Daddy

I think it would actually be interesting for some people if I were to add a historical footnote here. Some years ago, when doing research for a term paper on American and European witch trials I came across several references to animal familiars. Rather than being the black cats that were popularized in movies and more recent fiction, they were often rats.


These events happened long before rats were domesticated and kept in cages. As best I could determine it pretty much just seemed that certain lonely older ladies developed special relationships with the wild rats that moved into their homes. Having had a part wild rat that lived outdoors for five months and then came back inside to live with us I now have no difficulty at all in believing that there was every truth to these events.


While I honestly don't believe that animals prefer captivity to freedom, I do believe that rats can feel both free and comfortable living in human homes with human friends. In fact, historically the evidence suggests that rats chose to live with humans long before humans ever chose to live with rats.


As I recall, what got me interested in this project from the start was to find out if Rita could be integrated into Kucero's family. To my knowledge, this had never been done with wood rats. I wasn't sure it was possible, but given Rita's precarious situation in Kucero's woodshop it seemed more than justified at the time. To be honest, I think it's been a great success. Rita may have been born free, but she has proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt that she's happiest living with Kucero. I think the same goes for her children.


I suppose, this would've gone entirely differently if Kucera hadn't put in an extraordinary effort into socializing his wood rats and making them feel at home in their new digs. I can also see where some people might've been skeptical about the project in the beginning, but I think that all of the things we've learned up until this point have more than justified the risk. Perhaps, someday domesticated wood rats living in human homes might not be uncommon, but for now I consider this an extraordinary success story, and I think it teaches us all that special relationships between humans and animals long considered wild can be rewarding and beneficial to both the humans and the animals involved.


Regardless of where you got your own rats from if you're keeping them prisoners or captives in a cage I don't think you're doing the many favors, but if you're integrating them into your family and giving them the opportunity to lead an interesting and fulfilling life with you, in your home, I believe they may actually be better off than scrounging around in some toxic dump site for their next meal.


Lastly, I don't think anyone would seriously argue that a cat or a dog would be better off set free and left to fend for themselves, even if they could find their own food and shelter. A healthy human relationship is a good thing for dogs, cats and rats and perhaps other animals too.


I think we have all been incredibly lucky to have shared in this extraordinary story, and I sincerely thank Kucero for keeping us updated and I look forward to reading about the further adventures of Rita, Appa and Quad.


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## lost_whisper

It is always nice to read about your wood rats Kucero!


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## DVirginiana

This has been an interesting story to read. There is definitely a difference between keeping an animal caged or trapped and living with an animal. 
It seems natural to me that humans and wild rats would develop friendly relationships. They've adapted to follow us across the globe, expanding where we expand. It sounds like Kucero's wood rats enjoy their environment. The thing is animals don't want to live 'in the wild'. They have no idea what the heck that means. They want to live where their needs are met; housing, food, water, companionship, and sufficient space and mental stimulation (maybe mating but how strong that particular drive is can be pretty different between species and sexes). If those things are offered, the animal doesn't care if that's how their ancestors lived or not, they just care that they have everything they need.


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## Kucero

I can't think of a more appropriate time for an update; today is Quad and Appa's second birthday! It just doesn't seem like two whole years have passed since Rita surprised me with those two little bundles. Even though it has been a very long while since I've posted anything here, I was pretty diligent in taking pictures and videos that I had planned to present with my next post, but that's not gonna happen. After all the trouble I had putting a second residence on my property, Mother Nature must have thought it needed a bath, and she used a good ol' Louisiana flood to do it by filling it almost halfway with 100% natural muddy water. In my haste to get Rita, Quad, Appa and Jago (the cat) to higher ground, I neglected to rescue the two devices that had several months' worth of animal footage.

But now, life is almost back to normal, minus carpet, furniture, etc. The only thing preventing the same routine we had before isn't even flood-related; it's fruit flies. I can't get rid of them, and I can't explain their tenacity. Chemicals in every drain I have prevents them from access to water, and there's no food laying out, but the insects are laying eggs, hatching, and growing in the substrate moistened by woodrat urine. I've cleaned the cages repeatedly, and they still keep coming back. It got so bad I had to put their cages in one of the unused bedrooms and open the windows, hoping the insects would fly to freedom as soon as they were able, but that's not working, either. They won't leave! Setting up a couple of electric fans to encourage them to vacate has helped thin them out a bit, but not even the fly paper and traps I have added to the air currents prevent them from repopulating. I don't want to risk insecticide, and I'm beyond financially stretched after all of the flooding business, but the only recourse I seem to have left is to purchase three brand new cages, and even then, I don't know how I'm going to keep the fruit flies from relocating to the new cages when the woodrats do.

The woodrats don't seem to be bothered at all by the unwelcome pests, but I'm now cleaning their cages every other day. As always, I can only let one of them out at a time, but despite this procedure being done in a totally new room, each of them is less interested in exploring their surroundings and more interested in agitating the other two that are still in cages, and it takes zero effort for the one doing the agitating to get a reaction. There's also a gender bias; when I let Rita out, she will spend about 10% of her free time around Quad's cage, splitting the rest of it between visiting Appa and seeing what I'm up to.

Here's a typical cage cleaning, and I'll use Rita as an example: After making sure I have everything I need, I open a cage door and wait. When Rita makes her exit, she isn't in a hurry. That doesn't mean she moves slowly, though. They all have two speeds: Fast, and Mach 1, which I'll describe in a moment. She disregards me completely at first, stops by Quad's cage, and goes to see Appa. They all know when cleanings are about to happen, and since I always go in the same order, Appa is already in position in anticipation of Rita's arrival. Rita shows an occasional vague interest in Appa; the situational behavior is identical in all three. The one on the outside explores the area around the cage (not their own cage), pausing to sniff here or inspect a bit of debris there, finding an occasional tidbit worth gnawing on for a few seconds. They'll take a few strolls on the outside of the cage, and wherever they go, the one inside the cage follows closely, as though they were magnetized. Very rarely will the one outside actually focus on their counterpart. Meanwhile, the one being visited shows their displeasure with short bursts of lunges with the front paws and thumping with the back, but apart from the noise resulting from the lunges and thumps, they don't make a sound. Their little toes might protrude a bit from the other side of the cage when they're climbing, but never once has a toe been nipped. And while two of them are doing their thing together, the third spends a small fraction of that time expressing interest in their antics, but most of it focusing on what I'm doing.

None of them have any fear of me anymore. I can tickle Quad for a couple of seconds, but for the most part, they don't want to be touched. They have no problem crawling on me, though, and I have to be very careful whenever I move, because it takes only a second for any of them to move from one side of the room to a "potential squish zone". All of the doors to the cage I'm maintaining are open during the process, and when I'm finished, I close all but the smallest and then offer some food. I don't herd them; they take whatever I have and bring it inside their newly-cleaned house, and wait for me to give them more. I shut the last door, pass a couple of morsels through, and move on to the next cage. Once the cleaning for all three is done, their work begins. This is when they begin reconstruction with the new stuff I've put in their cages; they won't do this as long as one of them is still free.

In an earlier post, I asked for suggestions about what to use to fill the new cage I bought for Quad, since it was so much bigger than I thought it would be. I ended up putting his old cage in its entirety inside the new one, which still left large empty gaps on both sides. I added random toys to one side, and the expensive chinchilla wheel to the other. I've seen him jog on it once or twice, but he spends more time shoving it around and trying to turn it over. Once, he managed to trap himself underneath it, like a ball beneath an overturned bowl.

I thought I had a good measure of their abilities, and I'm still amazed by the feats of strength and speed I've seen in them, but since my last posting, I realized something new; they can retract their eyeballs, and they can force them to bulge more than they do normally, presumably to expand their field of vision. And even though I've had them for two years now, it was only a few nights ago that I finally bore witness (or almost did) to their capacity for speed. We were in the middle of a feeding at the time. It was disrupted when a large moth flew in via an open window. All four of us noticed it at the same time when it flew close to a light bulb, casting a shadow. I looked up at the same time that I heard (comparatively) loud movement from the cages, which jerked my attention back downward, but they were gone. The moth had startled them into their hidey-holes, and my reflexes weren't fast enough to see ANY of them at any stage of making that trip.

I often wonder if the flood had purged the remaining wild woodrats from around my area. Three of them did survive, though, and I'm very glad that I had the means to make that happen. But as grateful as I am for that, I still wish they would develop an appetite for fruit flies.


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## Rat Daddy

It's great to hear your guy and girls are doing well... It strikes me as a long time ago when we both wondered if wood rats can become friends with humans... or find a place in a human household... I don't think it's ever been done before, or at least as successfully as you have done it. I think it couldn't have been easy blazing your own trail... In any case it's great to get an update! Moreover this thread is likely the only one of it's kind for other people in the future who might be interested in wood rats to learn from... 

I just wanted to add that my favorite trap for fruit flies is to take a wide mouth soda or juice bottle (snapple works great) and insert a straw through the top, seal around the straw with polyfill fiber or porous sponge type material... The straw should be flush at the top so the fruit flies can easily find the entrance. The straw should go a few inches into the bottle.

At the bottom of the bottle you can put some oatmeal and yeast or some fruit to rot... The smell from the rotting fruit or fermenting oatmeal will attract the fruit flies like gangbusters... and they will go down the straw into the bottle and they won't find their way back up the straw... One trap like this usually clears out my house of flies in about a day... Naturally you will need to leave the trap several days.

Once the trap is full, you can freeze it and you get tropical fish food or you can open it outside. Note the fruit flies will lay eggs in your trap and the food you put in will spawn a new generation of flies in a couple of weeks, so you have to wash or replace the bottle so you don't wind up in the fruit fly business. 

Funny, I actually didn't much care about trapping fruit flies because they bothered me, I wanted free fish food and didn't want to bother raising wingless fruit flies, so I designed the traps and just caught what I needed. When there weren't enough flies in the house I'd put the traps in the windows to get the full. Rather than wash the bottles, I save the bottles and feed the next generation of flies to the fish too...

Best luck.


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## Kucero

Alrighty, I'm back with another long-overdue status report. I'll begin with some disappointing news; I won't include any pics this time, but on the positive side, I did manage to consolidate every rodent-related pic or vid that I could find into one place. The Rodent folder contains a couple hundred megabytes of fairly new (less than a year old) woodrat activity, scattered amongst 44 gigs of everything else I recorded over the last three years. A lot of the 967 files are duplicates, but sorting through it all is still going to be pretty darned tedious.

This post isn't about my own little rodent family this time; it's primarily about a compilation of information I've gathered and placed in a comparative format. My efforts to learn about Eastern woodrats have been supplemented by also learning about wild black rats and brown rats, with more focus on the black rats ever since I began catching them from where they had (ironically) infested a rat rescue establishment only a few miles from me.

Take a moment to answer this question, and "lock in" your answer before continuing:

1. How many species of invasive rats exist today?
a. One
b. Two
c. Three
d. There's no such thing

Got an answer? My answer would have been (b. Two,) thinking of brown (Rattus norvegicus) and black rats (Rattus rattus). I might have been tempted to answer with "D" if I thought it was a trick question. I might have selected "C," believing they were black, brown, and fancy rats, and it would have been the correct answer, but faulty reasoning. Fancy rats do not have their own scientific taxonomy, although I believe they should. "Rattus heartmelterus" is long overdue. Not only that, but they are not invasive, so they can't be the third species. Woodrats, specifically Eastern woodrats (Neotoma floridana) don't count because they are not true rats, and they can't reproduce quickly enough to be invasive anywhere. If anyone reading this already knows the identity of our third invasive species, I hope you'll also be able to add to what I've compiled about them (link below).

So who's the third? Meet the Polynesian rat (Rattus exulans). We don't have a problem with them here in the United States, thankfully, but they've been very naughty indeed in those places where they thrive. According to Wiki: "The species has been implicated in many of the extinctions that occurred in the Pacific amongst the native birds and insects; these species had evolved in the absence of mammals and were unable to cope with the predation pressure posed by the rat. This rat also may have played a role in the complete deforestation of Easter Island by eating the nuts of the local palm tree, thus preventing regrowth of the forest."

I started writing notes, making side-by-side comparisons to see if true rats were as different from each other as they are from Rita & Co. I found the differences interesting, and figured it was worth sharing. I didn't want to simply scan the notes I had jotted down; my handwriting tends to encourage sympathy and squinting rather than education. I made a remedial spreadsheet, designed specifically to make perusal simple. There are a lot of footnotes, but I didn't know how use Google docs before starting it, and never figured out if it was even possible to use superscripts, so the reference aspect is kinda awkward, and I apologize for that. To mark footnote references, I used {*?} to take the place of superscripting, where "?" is a number to direct attention to the matching footnote. There are a few gaps on the reference sheet; it's hard to find reliable information on Polynesian rats, so if anyone knows the answer to any of the vacancies, let me know, and I'll update the spreadsheet and edit this post to give credit to the educated.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jlu5HCs5vRyU2pAsQR5WcGc8iBZ9oZZVA2ATvt8sdhs/edit?usp=sharing

Now that the official and semi-official information I gathered is semi-public knowledge, I can use it to refer to the most interesting thing about Quad that there is to know. Footnote #2 says that the heaviest recorded weight for an Eastern woodrat is or was a male who weighed 354g (just over 3/4 lb.) That little tidbit made me curious enough to weigh Quad twice, once on a postage scale and the other on a food scale. Surprise, surprise, Quad weighs exactly 370g, making him a potential Guinness world record holder.

There are several things I believe that made him such a heavyweight, but being a fatty isn't one of them. Quad is a stocky, muscly thing, and even though I like to indulge them all with small amounts of sweets that aren't good for them nutritionally, the diet they've been on for almost three years is vastly superior to what they'd find by foraging in the wild. From Wikipedia: "As with most members of the genus, the Eastern Woodrat feeds opportunistically on nuts, seeds, fungi, buds, stems, roots, foliage, and fruits."

Compare that to garden-grown tomatoes, carrots, green beans (sometimes cooked, sometimes not), potatoes, apple slices, sunflower seeds, organic oats, corn on the cob (I always steam it first, just to be safe), walnuts, peanuts still in the shell which they all take such delight in "unwrapping," purified water...the list goes on, but I think his diet is one of the primary contributors to his weight. Everything I've read about Eastern woodrats, which includes the majority of what the Internet has to offer, leads me to believe that all of the statistical findings, such as average weight, came from woodrats who were caught, measured, and released. I haven't seen anything about babies being born into captivity, nor anything mentioning observation over time. It probably wouldn't be difficult to surpass Quad's weight if someone were to raise another woodrat from infancy. I suspect that the very reason Quad has a claim to to the throne is, by itself, an indication that such a thing has never been done.

Up next: another significant development in the Eastern woodrat drama that still has me scratching my head.


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## Kucero

I've split this post into two parts. I have to apologize again, because neither is an update on Rita and the kids. The second half is about a recent development that is a potential game-changer. The first part, this part, goes into more detail about my first meeting with Rita, and how I dealt with her first set of twins after she bolted.

I went back and re-read all of my posts in this thread again, from beginning to end. It's a roller coaster of a read, just as it has been to actually experience it. I still remember the first time I saw Rita in the middle of the night. I had cleared off part of my workbench to do some paperwork, possibly drafting a new listing for my pens on Amazon, or perhaps I was sketching a few woodworking ideas rolling around in my head. Whatever I was doing was instantly forgotten when I detected movement on the edge of my vision, and glanced over to see what looked like the biggest mouse in the world making her way toward me in short bursts.

Many uninvited guests had visited me in that woodshop; rabbit (just one), raccoons, lots of frogs, mice, an occasonal snake during the day, turtles, skunk, more possum than anything else, and I even surprised an owl in there a couple of weeks ago, and he surprised me right back (startled me out of ten years of my lifespan). But this was definitely a first. I just froze, fascinated almost to the point of being spellbound, and waited to see what was going to happen. She skittered to a stop only about two feet away from where my feet were planted on the floor, and rose to a standing position to sample the air, facing straight in my direction. Her whiskers were a blur, and I remember thinking they looked more than half the length of her body. She sniffed for four or five seconds, dropped back down to all fours, and retreated exactly as she approached, not in a hurry, and not worried about the fact that I was there.

If anyone had told me that little animal would end up changing my life, I'd have rolled my eyes and said "No, THAT right there changed my life the day I brought it home," pointing at the wood lathe. While it's true that learning a completely unique facet of woodworking by using the lathe captured my interest completely, it's still a machine, and machines can't capture my heart, as Rita has. At first, she was a curiosity, but the cost of her gnawing habit cut too deep. By the time I realized that the damage rolled into the thousands, I was already taken. 

If she had never come back after the first time she escaped, I probably wouldn't have thought about it much. I really didn't expect to see her again after that first hasty exit, and the only reason I was hoping to capture her again was to reunite her with the two babies that my neighbor picked up with his bare hands and brought to the workbench. Incidentally, the picture in my original post was taken not long after Rita left them behind, after I resigned myself to being responsible for them unless I could catch her again. The baby was still very much alive, but exhausted, and had not been fed in a while, which was the first thing I remedied. I dropped my woodworking and made them my project for almost a week, feeding them every two hours night and day, toileting them with Q-tips, tissue paper, and a lot of latex gloves (which were tossed after a single use, to keep the babies germ-free,) and keeping the temperature of their habitat strictly regulated using nothing more than a light bulb and some common sense. I had already read up on respiratory infections before they got it, and I wasted no time seeking treatment, but the vet wouldn't help. It's possible that he -couldn't- help, legally, because they were wild. Antibiotics would have saved them, because they were improving before they got sick. How different might my story have been if those babies had lived?

If they had, I might have ended up with two rodents that I would not have been able to identify until they were fully grown. By the time I figured out what they were (if ever,) I wouldn't have had any need to ask for advice, and probably would never have even posted here in the first place. In my mind,they should have lived. Sickness was the only thing that could harm them while I was caring for them, and I did my best to keep that at bay with regular feedings, healthy temperature, and as sterile a nursery as anyone could manage. Turns out that the babies get the bacteria that causes the infection from their mothers at birth (the only reason our first germ-free lab rats ever existed was because the babies were taken by C-section while the mothers were sacrificed, submerged in disinfectant). But after they succumbed to illness, I picked up the traps I had set out for their neglectful mama, and resumed normal shop activity. I never did ask Jamie exactly where he found those babies, and in retrospect, I wonder why Rita had separated from them in the first place. New woodrats attach to one of mama's nips immediately when after they're born and, except for bathroom breaks, they stay there. We've seen it. All woodrats have food caches, and pregnant woodrats will stash specific things in anticipation of impending babies, so Rita didn't have to forage, and she already knew there was no water to be found inside the shop.

Rita didn't make another appearance until two or three days after I picked the traps up. I can't remember whether it was two or three; a week of using a two-hour timer to ensure twelve meals a day kinda got my days and nights mixed up. She might have been in the shop the entire time, for all I know, but I didn't see anything indicating her return until I noticed things that were knocked over, moved around, my broom missing so many bristles by this point that I had to replace it, and the reincarnation of the stash she had made before.


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## Kucero

Part 2 - current events

Earlier this year, I had the power to the woodshop restored, and I started spending time there to clear spider webs and get rid of the polishing compounds, resins, and glues that had dried up. It didn't take long to spot signs of rodent activity, and setting a few traps yielded a few mice, which I released near a creek about a mile away. Some of the mouse traps I had set in the lean-to behind the woodshop got knocked over, so I set rat traps. Those got knocked over, or tripped without catching anything. It didn't matter how well I anchored the traps or restricted access to the trip mechanism from the outside, they still got knocked over or triggered with no sign of the culprit. I bought a BIG trap that was about a foot wide, a foot tall, and three feet wide. I thought it was probably a raccoon or possum, but please, please don't let it be a skunk...

Amazingly, it got knocked over. Granted, it wasn't placed on solid ground; I had put it on top of a stack of styrofoam to discourage ants from getting at the peanut butter. I couldn't think of anything larger than a raccoon that ate peanut butter, but I certainly was curious to know what was outwitting me. Standard trapping procedure wasn't helping me, and in order to know how to adjust my methods properly, I needed to know what I was dealing with. So I bought a security camera with nightvision and installed it, pointing it directly at the trap. That's how I found out I was getting tag-teamed.

Up to this point, any baited traps I left in the lean-to were tripped or knocked over by morningtime. Once I got the camera in place, though, the traps stayed untouched for a few days. The camera was only $50, and the device itself was a steal for that price. But it was difficult for me to network with my cell phone using my WiFi. By the time I had the settings like I wanted, I was able to pull up an app on my cell or laptop to see a live feed from the camera, use those devices to pan the camera remotely, and best of all, motion detection recording using a micro SD. I didn't think there would be a lot of activity, so I only used a 2GB card, but I didn't account for the camera's ability to sense and record every flying insect that zooms across its view. A spider decided to spin its web in front of the camera, which filled up the memory card pretty quickly. No problem, I can format it remotely and start over again.

Unfortunately, when I checked the screen and saw that the large trap had been tripped, the spider had been especially busy that night, and so the memory card filled up before the mystery creature stopped by to do his thing. I love animals, but that spider had to go. I reset all three traps, one big, two rat-sized, and waited. It wasn't long after midnight that I looked at the screen and saw that the critter had visited again, but this time, oh ho, I had recorded it. All I had to do was go outside, get the SD card, plug it into the laptop, and solve the mystery. I left the phone on when I left the house and made my way to the woodshop. I had set the large trap atop two five-gallon buckets, still trying (successfully) to discourage ants. I reset the trap, took the memory card with the camera still running, and wasted no time going through the files on the computer once I was back at the house. There were a lot of them, and even if it was just an insect that the camera first detected, recording continued for a few minutes afterward, so the videos were all of a similar length.

And there it was, finally! A big ol' creepy-looking, stinky possum. I watched the recording, which had started at 10:15, and smirked over my confirmed suspicions when I saw it enter from the side of the screen. It slowly waddled in, knocked everything over actually slipped and fell once, and wandered out of view. At this point, I wasn't worried about catching the tenacious trap-tripper anymore; I had no use for a possum, and it wasn't damaging anything, so I figured I'd just pick up the traps and camera, and leave him to do his thing.

Then the second animal appeared. I had left the phone on when I went to get the memory card from the camera, I had left the camera on because I was too excited to worry about finding that tiny switch in the dark when I could power it down remotely. So the screen on my phone had been on the entire time, showing a live feed of absolutely nothing while I was going through files on the laptop. Movement on the small screen caught my attention, and I picked it up, wishing now that I had been recording my facial expression as I watched another Eastern woodrat perch right on top of that large trap. I recognized it immediately and with 100% conviction. I wish the memory card had been in the camera for what came next; the woodrat dropped down into the big trap, skittered to the back, stepped on the plate, and did it all like he was part of a performance.

So I went back outside, flashlight in hand and a million thoughts in my head. And there it was; one trap big enough for a cocker spaniel, and a woodrat inside it, facing me on hind feet, whiskers a blur but otherwise completely motionless. I had just enough time to realize that this woodrat wasn't even fully grown when it decided that I was unacceptable company. Remember that I had placed this trap across a couple of tall buckets? The woodrat certainly did. He stuck his head straight down between the bars and let gravity help wriggle his way to freedom, only having to drop about 15 inches or so to the ground below. There was a brief pause when his belly got stuck temporarily, leaving two hind feet, toes splayed, pointing straight up toward the night sky.

The lean-to is where I caught Rita for the tenth time, which was the only time I caught her without using a trap, and I'm certain there's a passageway that leads to the inside of the woodshop. Whether this newcomer had just arrived for the first time, or had decided to make it his home a while ago, I couldn't let him stay there. I picked up the big trap, left the two smaller traps, and had a fourth woodrat captured less than an hour later.

Seems almost like we've come full circle, doesn't it?

I knew Rita wasn't the only woodrat out there; she didn't get Quad and Appa by herself, after all. But the flooding we had last year was awful, and a lot of wildlife got wiped out because of it. Woodrats are survivors, though, and seeing an adolescent makes me wonder just how populated this area is with them.

This one's a boy, I'm guessing eight or nine months old, but either way, at least he doesn't have any babies to look out for. But he's...different. For one, his ears are a teensy bit lower on his head, almost giving him the appearance of a fancy dumbo rat. But it's his behavior that truly surprises. It took me a couple of days to get Rita to learn how to use a small animal water bottle, and this was after weeks of manually giving her fluids with a squeeze bottle or pipette. The little guy picked up on it not only on his first day with me, but on his very first try. Maybe he's super smart, or maybe he got lucky trying to grab something shiny and finding out there was water in it. But his disposition is wonderful. A little shy, but brave enough to eat from my hand just a couple of hours after he learned about water bottles.

I haven't given him a name, because to do so would be to admit that I'm keeping him, and I'm so much more conflicted about it this time than I was with Rita. I wouldn't even have Rita if not for her determination to live in my woodshop, chewing up and stealing whatever she pleased. Rita was a destructive little beast, and my decision to keep her was largely based on self-imposed obligation. The dozen (or so) hand-made cages that followed, each better than the one before it, can stand on their own merit as proof that what used to be resignation gave way to affection. This one sits on my shoulder (if there's food involved), but apparently more comfortable with it than Quad has ever been.

All of those wild black rats I captured and observed showed me that there is a vast range of personality traits that can manifest within a single species. There are many notable singularities in my woodrat trio, this new guy is trashing a few of my theories regarding woodrats and possible domestication.


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## Kucero

I sat on the fence for a while as I was deciding whether to update again. This thread hasn't seen any activity apart from my own in almost a year and a half. Obviously, I ended up voting in favor of updating, because I've just learned a very hard lesson that I can pass on, so that no one else gets surprised like I did.

Rita died a few nights ago, on February 22nd. She had already had a close brush with death four or five weeks before this happened, and I'll explain that in a moment. The last time I saw her alive was around 9:00 the night of the 21st, and I found her the next morning less than twelve hours later when I showed up to give them breakfast.

A few weeks ago, Rita seemed to be having problems moving around. She was almost always the first one to fly toward the front of her cage whenever she suspected that food was coming, but I noticed she was actually deciding whether to get out of bed or not, and moving sluggishly when she did. She wouldn't even leave her cage when it was her turn for cage-free roaming. The most she would do was poke her head out of her house and blur her whiskers at me. More than two days went by as I helplessly watched while she rapidly deteriorated. I started feeding her while she was still in bed when it became clear that weakness was overpowering hunger. It was when I tried giving her some fresh water using a syringe (just like I did when I first caught her) that I realized what the problem was. Rita had been out of water for days. I don't know how many days, but it could have been as long as a week. Her water bottle was still more than halfway full, but for some reason, the ball bearing was stuck at the bottom of the tube. The bottles I have been using for the woodrats are made by a company called "Choco Nose". Their brand is neither cheap nor cost-prohibitive. They claim to have a patent for their "no drip" bottles, but I had no idea they could accidentally convert to "no flow".

My first action following this revelation was to fill a small jar lid/cap with water and hot glue it to the top platform closest to her bed (so she couldn't knock it over). For the next ten days or so, I was giving her liquids with squeeze bottles and syringes in addition to keeping the small reservoir stocked. It was a while before she actually got out of her bed to relieve herself, but she didn't go to the bottom of the cage; she wet the platform at the top. Eastern woodrats have dedicated latrine areas, and they stick to that area like it's a religion, so to see that she was relieving herself that close to her bed was alarming, but also a bit encouraging because at least she was moving around. I went through a lot more gloves as I cleaned up after every incident. When she had to do more than just wet, she managed to go to the second highest platform for that, and from the appearance of her stool, it looked like she was having trouble. I changed her diet after that, giving her a mixture of raw honey, organic pumpkin puree and ground flaxseed with each meal, and after a few days of that, she stopped making messes upstairs and looked like she would recover just fine.

I kept up with that diet in the weeks that followed, until Rita was back to her normal self, with small differences. For example, she didn't antagonize the other woodrats quite as much as normal during her turn for free-ranging adventures, but at least she was up and about, and I was finally able to breathe a little easier. I had been keeping my mother informed of Rita's progress, and after feeding the rodents on the night of the 21st, I managed to get a picture of Rita that wasn't completely blurry as she nibbled on a small piece of peeled carrot on which I had spread a thin bit of peanut butter. Spreading peanut butter very thin over carrots (and the like) minimizes the risk of small animals choking on it, even if they opt to lick it off first.

She had already slipped away a few hours before I found her the next morning. She was wedged between the wall of the cage and the feed bowl that came with it. She wasn't stuck; for the two or three seconds it took for me to approach the cage, I actually believed she was trying out a new sleeping position, until I noticed that those long whiskers weren't moving anymore. The plastic bowl was something I used to put trinkets in for her to find, and I had hot glued it to the platform so she couldn't knock it over. Rita chose her bedding area right next to that bowl, and she had to climb over the bowl to get to where the water bottle was. Her feet were still in her bed, and she was halfway over the bowl. It looked like she was going to get some water when her candle suddenly got snuffed in transit. What could have caused this? She had not struggled, she had been keeping up with her grooming, both eyes were closed, and she was stretched out with her belly down, not on her side. I don't know what might have happened, but I keep wondering if it was the end result of a chain of events started by a defective water bottle. I wonder if I could have prevented it if I had been more observant.

I believe that at least whatever took her did it quickly. If I were a superstitious type, I might begin to wonder if it's something about me, because I don't seem to get to say goodbye to those I love before they leave me. Pet owners have such a hard road to walk when the love they have for their four-legged companion is eventually matched by their mercy, but even my cat literally died mid-purr while I was holding him at home watching a movie with my son. I was spared having to go witness Agilarr or Rita's suffering as they declined through age, but not having the closure of a goodbye combined with not knowing what in the world happened leaves a vast, hollow feeling that eventually diminishes, but doesn't stop aching.

I put Rita in a wooden box I had started making three years ago, but the two shovels I once had have apparently been stolen by someone that didn't think I should have them. I asked one of my neighbors if he'd loan his to me. I came unglued when he suggested I just throw her out with the trash, and wound up just buying a new shovel. Whatever portion of her audience remains, Rita had once provided a tale that piqued a lot of interests, and if it had been someone else telling her story, I'd have been one of those following it. I couldn't even comprehend the notion of throwing her in the trash like she never even mattered.

My other neighbor Moose helped me bury her. He was the one who supplied that ancient trap that caught her the first time, before I even knew what she was. I put her right behind the woodshed she loved so much, underneath the lean-to, where I had caught her the last time.

Supposedly, Rita's species can live for over eight years. All I can declare with certainty is that she was at least four and a couple of months, but she could have already had a couple of years on her when she staked her claim in my woodshop. The twins will be four this coming September, and I really hope they outlive their mother. I really miss her.


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## athenianratdaddy

Condolences for your loss. I think that Rita has had an amazing (and long) life, and that she passed without too much suffering. She also has a dedicated burying place, a grave of sorts. She knows in her little rattie heart that you truly loved her and took care of her and her liter.


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## Kucero

It doesn't seem like it's been four years since a certain wild woodrat caused me to experience a weird blend of chagrin and delight, but the board's timestamps don't lie; Quad and Appa were born literally the day after this thread's original origin, so they are four years old today. 
I finally gave the new woodrat a name; Oakley. He was probably about eight or nine months old when I caught him, but he's fully matured now. He's about Appa's size, smaller than Quad by a good margin. Quad's size could be genetics, but with an actual model for comparison, I'm more convinced it's because I've controlled his diet since birth.

Oakley's disposition is more mellow than the twins, who have always been excitable. In that regard, he's more like Rita, and he's taken great strides toward bonding with me. The twins just see me as a food dispenser, for the most part, and when they crawl on me, they're hoping I'm holding treats.

Before I get to the most interesting new development, I have to backtrack and provide a little more detail about my cat Jago, and how I ended up with him. One of my dad's friends mentioned a black kitten that had been hanging around his office building about the same time that my shop cat Agilarr died. Literally everyone that met Agi loved him; you know you had a good pet when other people are moved to tears when he dies. Dad was one of these, and knowing I was hurting more than he was, he suggested I take the stray cat his friend had mentioned. I declined, of course; I didn't want a new cat, I wanted to mourn the loss of the one I had. After three days of Dad's relentless attempts to change my mind, I finally understood that while a new cat wouldn't make me feel any better, it would put my dad's mind at ease, and I grudgingly caved, realizing that the introduction of a young predator would adversely affect my interaction with my woodrats.

Agilarr was a gentle giant type, and weighed maybe 17 or 18 pounds. Now fully grown, Jago is beautiful, he weighs just over 13 pounds, but he's more catlike (i.e. predatory) than Agi ever was. Jago is nice enough, but I'm much more attached to my woodrats, and wouldn't hesitate to give Jago up if I had to choose one or the other. I had been allowing limited interaction between cat and woodrats while the woodrats were caged, and progress was being made until my mother threw another complication at me with the introduction of a second cat.

Last year, I convinced my mother to take in a stray kitty that was hanging around my property. Mom named her Daisy, which, in my opinion, is better suited for a cow. Several months later, Mom noticed a new stray kitten hanging around her house and guilted me into taking her. Daisy was constantly beating up on the adolescent newcomer, and Mom felt I was in a position to give this new cat a much better home. So now I have two full-grown black cats that I can't even photograph because all you can see is their green eyes.

I named her Orchid, because there is a relationship between Orchid and Jago's names that one would never guess unless one had spent a significant amount of time in arcades in the early 90s. Orchid weighs less than 8 pounds, but she's fully grown. What she lacks in size, she makes up for in predatory instincts. The little beast is a viper that attacks anything that moves. She chases a laser point like it just yanked on her tail and owes her money.

But here's the twist; after months of smotheringly supervised visits, the cats and woodrats have become friends without the necessity of a cage's protection. I think this is mostly because the twins immediately asserted their places as household alphas, and both cats have a healthy respect for them. They literally play tag. No one's ever been bitten or clawed. The funniest thing is Quad's uncanny talent for losing his feline pursuers and maneuvering behind them. More often than not, the nervous cats are scanning 360 degrees and see his head peeking around a corner before he can surprise them, but when he does catch one of them off guard, he scares the fire out of them, especially Orchid.

There are downsides, though. I still can't let more than one woodrat out at a time, because they don't get along with each other. And even though I'm sure that both cats would love to play with Oakley also, he's not having it. The twins are still blindingly fast, and harder for me to put back into their cages at the end of play sessions. The cats get worn out before the woodrats do, and they'd be too tired to play with the twin that gets set loose second. So the cats take turns just like the woodrats do, and after the twins have had playtime, Oakley just has me to play with.

Orchid likes the woodrats so much, she often sits in front of their door and meows at me. Jago also does this sometimes, but not nearly as often, and without the meowing; just one of those Hallmark card looks.

This unexpected relationship is a blessing on many levels.


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## JiinLee

Glad to see you've posted somewhat recently and that you're still having your rat adventure. Your detailed account of bringing in these rats helped give me the confidence to take in a wild rat of my own. My situation started similar to yours, with a little guy who just kept coming inside and couldn't be allowed to do it unsupervised. After having incredible success with trust training and immersion he's become a great friend. Thanks for documenting your story. This rat-cat friendship sounds amazing and entertaining, I'll always check in to read your updates!


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## PolietEclaire

Very cute story, but yes, no peanut butter 
I feel like she could have gone on to be a come-and-go kind of "pet" but I do understand your concern about keeping up shop. 
They love to perch on bowls to drink and bathe. You may conciser a heavy dog dish or bowls that clip onto her cage bars.


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## Kirara

I seriously can't believe this is the first time I'm hearing of this woodrat adventure, but I just spent the last several hours reading through the entire thread.

What an incredible journey. Several others mentioned it early on but I've got to add my name to the pile: I would absolutely buy the heck out of a book about your experience with these woodrats. I feel like it would be not only entertaining, but highly informative given your extensive research throughout. It is a perfect story complete with humble beginnings, joy, frustration, humor, loss, and hope. I am terribly, deeply sorry to hear of those you had to say goodbye to along the way, there is hurt there that I cannot imagine. The fact that your heart is still open to new animals is a beautiful thing.

It's incredibly fascinating the different avenues that people take to experience what wonderful animals rats are. I don't think you or Rita could have ever imagined what walking into your shed one night was going to lead to! I am awed by your patience and dedication to these little critters that so rudely nosed their way into your life.

Even with fully domestic animals, sometimes the highest bond you can reach is something along the lines of "can tolerate being in the same room as you", so it's a serious achievement the level of trust you managed to reach with Rita and her kids.

Even though I do think taking a brief aside to reiterate the dangers of messing with wildlife is necessary, this was a very unique situation, and you were aware the whole time that you were interacting with a wild animal. In the end it was probably a better decision to keep Rita than to let her back into the wild, considering how heavily you altered her behavior. Though taking more from the wild, if you can prevent it, is going to be the best course of action going forward. If you long for the company of a rat, there are plenty of already domestic ones that will fill that role just fine! Despite your tenacity, I couldn't help but feel compelled to try and defend pet rat ownership - "it's not always this difficult, I swear!" 😂

I found it very interesting, your experiments with the roof rats as well, and all through reading this I couldn't help but wonder what might happen if you tried introducing other rats species to the woodrats. I have a friend who once rescued a baby roof rat, raised her, and successfully introduced her to other fancy rats. (Of course I wouldn't recommend trying that without extensive research, I am not versed in how well the social roles of different rat species can mesh.) 

As I said this is the first time I'm seeing this thread, so please excuse me as I comment on things that are, to you, now years old at this point!

"It's babies!" as an attention-grabber for food time is hilariously similar to what I'm betting a lot of us rat owners do, which is devolve individual names into a collective excitable phrase. Some of mine in the past have been: "Berbas", "Jelly Beans", "Baby Boys", "Wee Babs", "Oreos", and most recently, "Tinies". A true sign of a rat owner, that is!

Also, "eat the bean" turning into a spin move is probably one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

You mentioned in a post hoping to find someone knowledgeable on woodrats, or some resource for information. She is not an expert on rodents specifically, but I have to give a shoutout to Rachel Garner. She is experienced in animal sciences, education and outreach, zookeeping, animal biology and cognition, and has a community of sources that are active in everything from veterinary work to endangered species breeding programs. She runs an educational website called "Why Animals Do the Thing" and you can email her at [email protected]. I can't guarantee you'll get an immediate response because she's currently doing a big project about zoo facilities and tiger populations, but she's the absolute best resource I know on accurate, scientific, up-to-date research of animals, and if she can't provide you with information, she most certainly will know someone who can. I feel like she'd be just plain interested to hear about your story, too.

With that said, thank you so much for sharing your woodrat journey with us. I hope you continue to experience good fortune with your ratties and other pets, and keep us updated when you have noteworthy things to post ♥ Rita's story certainly spread farther and touched more people than one could think for a little wild woodrat! Still got tears in my eyes thinking about her as I type this, I wish you all the best!


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## Kucero

The twins are now less than a month away from reaching their fifth birthday(s), but one of them seems determined to cease being a living thing before that day arrives. Of course, it's my problem child, Quad. Not only did he take on one of the cats (and won, but more on that later), but he went and allowed himself to become a host for what appears to be a rapidly growing parasite. 

Before I forget to mention this, I did take Kirara's (previous post) advice to reach out to Rachel Garner, but did not get a respone. I'm neither surprised nor disappointed, though, because just five minutes of reading about her made me believe she's one of the busiest, most active people on the planet. 

In contrast to what I just suggested about the possibility that Quad might have a death wish, I don't actually believe his life is in immediate danger. That said, I am 90% convinced that he is suffering from a botfly larva. Botflies are common in Central and South America, but they are occasionally seen in a few of our southernmost states, a category that Louisiana easily claims membership. Their (alleged) scarcity here is the primary contributor to that 10% of doubt. 

There are plenty of botfly extractions on YouTube, but I don't suggest anyone with a weak constitution run there to see. For me, it was research that was a little disturbing to watch, but sometimes...oddly satisfying. Between YouTube, Wikipedia and a few independent reports, here's an abbreviated summary of what I learned: 

Mama botfly didn't even have to be in the house to get Quad pregnant, so to speak. Botflies usually lay eggs on an intermediary bloodsucking vector, such as a mosquito, who in turn feeds off the host. Botfly larva sense the warmth of the host from inside the egg, which causes them to leave the intermediary and burrow into the warm-blooded host, without actually causing permanent damage to said host. As the larva grows, it widens the point of entry, which enables breathing, but makes it visible. This is why it took so long for me to figure out what was causing the problem; I couldn't see the point of entry beneath Quad's fur. 







I had to tempt him with some peanut butter to get a decent shot beneath his chin. 

After watching a few disgusting yet compelling extractions, I felt ready to give extraction a go, myself. But there were two major issues preventing me from making the attempt. To begin with, I didn't have any sort of anesthetic for Quad, and I didn't think it would be to find said anesthetic at Walmart. The second issue was something not actually filmed, written, or posted on YouTube. Quad isn't a crafting problem that I need to find a solution for, and he's not something that can be fixed with table saws and clamps. Thus, I owe it to him to bring him to a professional. 

But with that decision came more roadblocks. First and foremost, veterinarians do not treat wild animals...officially. Species is irrelevant; if it's something that was taken from a natural habitat, even if said habitat happens to be my woodshop (I'm talking about you, Rita), it doesn't matter if it's a field mouse or a unicorn, they don't get treatment, period. 

So I reached out to Darleen, who runs the rat rescue not far from where I live. She suggested I talk with her vet, who (she claims) would have no problem helping Quad out. It's a long trip, though. I'll definitely take Quad to see her in the absence of a more convenient (but also qualified) venue. With that in mind, the first call I make tomorrow morning will go to the veterinarian I've been dealing with for several years. 

Why bother trying? Well, it's been over five years since my regular vet declared his "anti-wild" treatment policy. It's possible that his standard in this regard has been softened somewhat, especially considering what has changed in that time. I'm someone he knows now. If I walk in with a wild rodent begging for his help (the vet's help, not the rodent's) five years after the previous attempt was denied, either the circumstances are changed enough to make me believe a second inquiry has merit, or I'm part of the longest "catch a shady veterinarian" sting operation in the history of Louisiana. Whatever the outcome, the goal is to get rid of Quad's uninvited freeloader. If (by some miracle) I'm given my choice between the two available possibilities, I'll probably go with whichever one will let me set fire to the intruder once Quad is in the clear.


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## Kucero

It looks like I was wrong on every level. Quad didn't have a parasite that could be extracted and squished, after all. It's a "submandibular mass" that looks like (i.e. best "out of lab" guess) aggressive fibrosarcoma, something that doesn't seem to be a common thing found in rodents. I was given antibiotics and anti-inflammatory to last for a week, but the vet doesn't have much hope for any sort of recovery. But I feel like I owe it to him to do whatever I can to help. 

He's still eager to see me every time I enter the room, but knowing now what I didn't know then, i can see the differences between his behavior and Appa's with much more distinction. In contrast to her brother, her coat is still fluffy and clean, and she still moves with blinding speed. She doesn't stick around, though. Quad usually looks like he's waiting for a bedtime story, and always up for anything, whether it's free-roaming, playtime, or getting more stuff to stash somewhere. Appa sometimes seems to direct an unfocused gaze into another dimension, as though trying to remember where she buried the bodies, then darts off to hide somewhere, having no time for nonsense. 

In the past, I've made the complaint that I never get to say goodbye to those that I care about. It doesn't seem like Quad is ready to admit defeat yet, so I won't, either, and I'm being given ample time for his final farewell. A large part of me feels selfish. I've enjoyed his company for five years. Considering the maximum life expectancy of a genuine pet rat, combined with the fact that I had not expected him to begin with, it seems like I should be more grateful, and celebrate what I was lucky to have in the first place. And yet, it seems all I can do is lament that there probably won't be much more while fervently hoping these antibiotics will turn things around.


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