# Immersion Training Tibbers



## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

I decided to give immersion training a try with miss Tibbers. I read the guide here and found it helpful.

So, I'm sitting on the bathroom floor with Tibbers and she hasn't explored at all. She will take a few steps away then run back and underneath my legs, then climb into my lap, then attemp to climb up onto my shoulder. I'm assuming that's partially good yet partially bad because I don't want her to be terrified of everything. I hope that once I get my own bedroom fixed back up again and put a door on that I'll be able to have her out and about throughout the day. She's usually very adventurous in the living room and in the bedroom but now that I'm trying this, she won't budge. Right now, she's perched on my shoulder. Haha. She won't really let me skritch her ears or belly but she's stickin to me like glue.

If anyone has any suggestions on anything to do with immersion, I'd love to hear them!! She also keeps climbing on me phone and sticking her head out like she's on the Titanic saying "I'm queen of the world!"

(TIbbers climbed onto my phone and hit submit before I was done!! Haha!)

Anyway, thanks in advance!!

Oh! Also! She climbed into my pants leg as soon as I put her on the floor. Is that normal for this sort of situation or?? 

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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

My rats do the whole trouser leg (pant leg?) thing all the time, theyre like big tunnels to be explored! great fun  Maybe shes a little nervous and trying to get close to you or maybe shes just curious, either way it pretty normal. She is bound to be a little nervous at first and come back to you for comfort, just keep talking to her and offering scritches and eventually im sure she will get bolder  Good luck!
(cute titanic rat image by the way  )


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks Moonferret. Haha. I don't mind her crawling into my pants but I just didn't want her to stay there. I'm assuming that it's a good thing that she kept coming back to me and crawling all over me. Maybe it means that she at least trusts me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry I was working on some other stuff and another immersion... But yours sounds like it went pretty well. It sounds like Tibbers really loves and trusts you.

What were the specific problems you were working on resolving? If they weren't fixed let me know what still needs to be done and I'll try and give you a plan to fix them.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Another idea-my rats are used to soft surfaces (fleece, towel, carpet) in their free-ranging places or cage, and are happy exploring on those surfaces. When in the bathroom, the hard floor surface seemed to throw them off, and the slick porcelain tub even more so. They were much less skittish when I put towels down on the floor, and more willing to explore. It's worth trying. 


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Sorry I was working on some other stuff and another immersion... But yours sounds like it went pretty well. It sounds like Tibbers really loves and trusts you.
> 
> What were the specific problems you were working on resolving? If they weren't fixed let me know what still needs to be done and I'll try and give you a plan to fix them.


She doesn't really want to be near me or be gotten out of her cage so I figured maybe she just needed to get used to me better and used to being out. When we first got her she was rather curious and liked coming out, but I'm not sure what changed that made her not want to come out. She hasn't bitten me or anything but she has sort of stood in a sort of threatening manor a few Times and when she's done that I've just left my hand in there to let her know "hey, I'm not here to hurt you. Just love on you." But apparently she's fine with me but for some reason just became timid/afraid of coming out. Which was strange. I guess I was hoping that doing immersion would help her become even more comfortable with me And understand that she's always safe when she's with me.

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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

karip said:


> Another idea-my rats are used to soft surfaces (fleece, towel, carpet) in their free-ranging places or cage, and are happy exploring on those surfaces. When in the bathroom, the hard floor surface seemed to throw them off, and the slick porcelain tub even more so. They were much less skittish when I put towels down on the floor, and more willing to explore.


Thanks. She was actually on a carpet and towel. She just didn't seem to want to explore or anything. Which is good I suppose but not because I don't want her to be timid and afraid of everything. She wasn't really sure how to take being taken in there with me to just get to know each other a little better and figure out what may have happened to make her more timid about coming out and playing. She's fine on my bed sometimes because I'd rather her be on my bed seeing as my room was recently filled with a bunch of junk. >_> So, she's fine with crawling and hiding in my pillows and blankets then coming back to me every now and then but she's just... I dunno. Odd I guess? Lol. I just want her to know she can trust me fully anywhere I may take her.

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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Ok. Instead of immersion, I'm doing Trust Training to see if that will work a little better than immersion. Seeing as she just sort of became more timid and that may be better for this situation.

One of my questions is... When you have the treat on your hand in the cage, do you leave your hand in the cage as she eats or take it out?? She will either run away to the other side of the cage or she will sit next to my hand and eat. xD so I'm not really sure what to do when she takes the food.

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, I'm not a fan of trust training... Lets start with that. It has it's place with a select group of really screwed up rats, but with normal rats often leads to pack order problems.... But I'm not sure we are dealing with a socialization issue here yet.

From what I gather Tibbers is back sliding and that's wrong.... When a friendly curious normal rat becomes anti-social we're not not necessarily dealing with socialization anymore.

So let's see if we can identify the issues.

1. How is Tibbers health? Are there any signs of something being wrong there?
2. Does Tibbers have any roommates and if so how are they acting and how is Tibbers interacting with them?
3. Describe your daily play sessions with Tibbers and your other interactions, if you aren't doing daily play, try and explain what you are doing with her, especially out of her cage. The time of day you play, and how long and how much time does Tibbers free range supervised vs unsupervised... add as much detail as you can.
4. How long have you had Tibbers? And when did she start changing?
5. As I take it Tibbers is a hairless rat, what is the temperature like in your home and how has it changed over the time you have had Tibbers?

Please, I promise I'm not trying to pry into your life and I'm not going to judge you, but if we're going to be of any use to you at all, we need to get a handle on what is going wrong so we can fix it. So please try to be as honest and complete as possible with your answers. I may have more questions depending on how you answer the first 5, but at least I or some of the experts here might be able to give you the best fix if we know what's happening.

Now let me add that many rat problems are caused by improper socialization... but even if you completely screw up socialization but keep working daily with your rats and build a relationship with them, things eventually tend to improve. On the other hand even a perfect immersion will fail if the rat owner doesn't do the right follow up and give his rats the correct emotional support and physical care.

I'm going to have limited time for a while, but I will check back to this thread as best I can. Re-socializing Tibbers might be the answer, but just as likely there's something else going on that we need to fix first.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

PandaCobain said:


> Ok. Instead of immersion, I'm doing Trust Training to see if that will work a little better than immersion. Seeing as she just sort of became more timid and that may be better for this situation.
> 
> One of my questions is... When you have the treat on your hand in the cage, do you leave your hand in the cage as she eats or take it out?? She will either run away to the other side of the cage or she will sit next to my hand and eat. xD so I'm not really sure what to do when she takes the food.
> 
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Trust Training can work very well. I've used it for years on horses that had "voices in their heads'..... BTW that's just a nice way of saying they're pretty crazy. 

The thing with trust training is consistency. It doesn't take long, but you have to be consistent and handle them daily. In as little as 20 minutes a day you can gain your rats trust. 

There's generally no kicking, squeaking, biting, or fighting. It's just pleasant interaction with your pet. For me, it's the best way to go and that's the way I choose to socialize my rats. 

I've used this method with all my rats. My rats don't bite or run away. Mine are very sweet and personable. When I open the cage door, they run to be picked up. They really enjoy spending time with me. I've even been teaching them tricks. They love the attention and they never get stressed. They don't even fight in their cage.... Of course, my girls do that breeding thing... Not sure what that's about. LOL. 

My one guy, Armageddon, still doesn't like my hubby too much and he will try to bite him..... Of course, he only handles Armageddon for about 5 minutes every few weeks. Each time my hubby tries to handle him it's like a stranger coming by. He handles the girls daily and they trust/love him. They get along with him very well. So, it's all about consistency. 

For trust training. All you do is allow your rat to come to you. You never force her to do anything. You just hold her and cuddle her. Talk to her as well and give treats. This only takes 20 minutes a day. If your rat is nervous about being picked up out of his cage. Use a cuddle bag for her to crawl into and remove her that way. Then allow her to come out of the bag in her own time and her own way. It's about being gentle with your pet and allowing her to trust you. If your rat is cage shy, you might have to take a few more minutes each day. BTW she will get over being cage shy after you've gained her trust. If you're afraid she might bite you. Just hold her in a position that won't allow her to do so. I like to cradle mine like a baby. Gently stroke her body and comfort her. Wear long sleeves and if she does try to bite, she'll get the fabric and not your arm. I've found that gloves make it worse. If you can avoid gloves, then it's best. When you're trying to earn their trust, you don't want to stress them out. 

Since your rat is basically sweet and doesn't bite... no voices in her head..... Trust training should be very easy.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose my gripe with trust training, other than it takes too long, is two fold.

First if you have an issue where a rat is morphing into an alpha, acquiescing to it emboldens it to become more aggressive... as in a thread where people talk about the nice rat that is getting more and more anti-social and beating up it's roommates and attacking it's owners.

Secondly, many people are very inconsistent about the way they handle their rats... yes everyone says they play with their rats two hours every day... but in truth, yesterday it was only five minutes and the day before they got home late from work and tossed in some food and went to bed and the day before the kids were sick and rat play time was averted by a trip to the emergency room... And when I read that someone plays two hours a day with a rat that bites, boy that raises some red flags in my mind...

The truth about successful trust trainers is that they are very good with rats, they usually understand rats pretty natively or through previous experience. So first they rarely buy vicious blood thirsty screwed up monsters. Then they put in the time to work with their rats with consistency and no small amount of dedication. And all of the time they are spending with their rats they are interacting with them and making all of the right decisions based on their experience and reading their rats behavior and responding appropriately. And lastly successful trust trainers aren't letting their rats bite them or beat each other up, they are hands on managing their pack daily.

The problem is that the kind of native ability and discipline that successful trust trainers have is very hard to teach and to some extent it requires starting out with the right rat. 

So what happens is that the newbe who purchased a screwed up rat, reaches into the cage after giving it a few weeks to settle in and become territorial and gets bit, so he reaches in the next day even more apprehensively and gets bit again and withdraws again and after a couple of months of this, the rat knows that it can drive off the intruder and the human learns not to put his hand into the cage. With the human firmly out of control one rat becomes the alpha and tears up his room mates. And by that point even immersion becomes a nightmare.

So, I have no doubt that trust training works for the right people and the right rats. Good trust trainers tend to be among the most knowledgeable and successful rat owners and usually have great rats. But, trust training with the wrong people and wrong rats is likely to do more harm than good. I still think; based on what PandaCobain has written, there's something more going on... immersion, trust training or no method at all; things shouldn't be going backwards.

Let's see if we can pinpoint the problem and then figure out how to fix it. I'm sure building more trust will be a part of the process, but I suspect that there are issues here we aren't aware of... So far I'm not even sure if her other rats are mistreating Tibbers or if Tibbers is a lonely single rat which could be the whole issue in itself. The problem might even be a temperature or health issue... I'm honestly not convinced we are dealing with a conventional socialization issue at this point.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Only a newbie who knows "nothing" about rats would leave an animal, screwed up or not, in their cage for 2 weeks to settle in. That's just wrong on sooooo many levels. 

Just as with Immersion Training, Trust Training starts as soon as you get your new pet home. 

A newbie should never start with a screwed up animal in the first place. They should always start with a young animal and bond with it early in life. 

Whether a person chooses to do Immersion Training or Trust Training..... They need to be consistent. They need to choose a method of socialization they're comfortable with and will stick to. 

It doesn't matter which method a person chooses. Both are effective and neither is definitively better than the other. 

It's a matter of which one a person will be consistent with. 

Some people can't or won't spend hours socializing their animal in a single day. If their goal is to do Immersion Training..... It might not go too well. 

Almost everyone has 20 minutes a day, but as you said.... That doesn't mean they'll spend that amount of time each day. 

My rats get hours each and every day. Just like the horses I used to work with. 

If a newbie chooses to start out with a rat that's "hearing voices"...... I feel sorry for that newbie. That same newbie is the one that might not be consistent. They might even let their new pet sit for 2 weeks alone in the cage...... and as it's sitting in that cage all alone...... The voices will only get louder.

A person that's experienced in either method of training/socializing can work with "any" animal. They know how to silence those voices and make their voice the only one their new pet hears.

Those that are new to either method.... They'll have to learn as the go. They'll most certainly make a mistake here and there. In the end, if they're consistent, they'll succeed.


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Hey, so sorry to have taken so long to reply. Only really had my phone to use and I've been having trouble with it lately. Anyway...

To answer your initial questions::

1) There honestly aren't any signs of anything being wrong with her health wise. I do believe we got her about 2-3 weeks ago and when we first got her she seemed to sneeze quite a bit but she no longer sneezes at all. But the heat coming from her body is ridiculous. I'm hoping she doesn't have something wrong with her that isn't really showing yet somehow. I mean, I've literally never felt a rat as hot as she is. Ever. And I don't want to take her to the vet and there being nothing wrong with her. It's really hard to find a vet around here that caters to rodents or small mammals. We knew one when I was in high school because we would take certain rats in for check ups throughout our time of owning them when they started showing signs of possibly being sick. We try to not overreact if it's normal for the pets to be certain ways but... My family is full of worry warts. And since she seems fine except for her body temperature and the sneezing when we first had her I'm not sure if that calls for a trip to the vet if it's nothing to worry about.
2) Tibbers currently has no roommates, when we got her the pet store actually had called because we were hoping for a hairless and they didn't have any other rats that seemed like they would be ok with her (she was actually the only rat they got in from the litter so we couldn't get a brother or sister of hers). At all. Most of the rats they had were either large or nasty. I had my dad check a few times but I just wasn't ready to deal with a nasty, mean rat and a new rat. I didn't want her to get hurt. And all the other rats were older. It was weird that there wasn't really any others there. I let her play with the boys today but I'm still worried about her health and I don't want her to get the boys sick somehow. And I'd let her stay with the boys some but they're much larger than her and they aren't neutered so I don't want her to end up pregnant. Especially with how young and small she is at the moment.
3) I try to get her when she's most active, it's usually around midday that she gets really active and seems to actually want to come out and play. I usually spend time with her in my room on my bed and sometimes set up an area on the floor with a towel or two with a few things to climb on and run around. I was at the hospital with my sister for about 4 days BUT I didn't stay there the whole time. I did go home every day to take care of not only my needs but my pets' as well. I would bring Tibbers out while I was home and let her run around my bed and on me. She seemed fine then even. Didn't seem timid or unwanting to come explore. I like to watch her closely because I just would rather watch my little one run around with a watchful eye on them. I make sure anything she can get into that may cause her harm is out of the way and then let her do whatever she wants. Sort of. Haha. She loves running around on my bed once I have her out and loves to explore. When I had her out and on the floor today, she was running all over and jumping and nibbling on pieces of cheese that I would put in my hand and she'd come take it and some times she'd sit there and eat it and others she'd run away with it like she does in the cage. She sort of seems like she goes back and forth about wanting to come out. She will literally act like she's ready to come out and play and then when I go to let her out, she backs away. Other times she'll come to my hand and willingly let me take her out. She's wishy washy. And today I let her and the boys run around together and she loved that. She was trying to cuddle up to the boys but the boys were having too much fun running around. Haha. When they're out they're crazy and love running around. they usually run around the whole time they're out without getting tired or wanting to just lounge about. They're pretty hyper. I also take her out later in the day when she's awake. I just don't really feel like/right waking her up.
4) I've had Tibbers for maybe 3 weeks now. She started changing maybe the day after I came back for good from being at the hospital with my sister. But while I was at the hospital I mean, I literally came back home for hours and hours and would play with her for an hour or two depending on what else needed to be done that I could do. And my dad would take care of her as well... Checking up on her simply because I was worried about her body temperature. And since she hasn't been showing any signs of anything being wrong, I'm just not sure what to do. We also have a heating pad just for our pets if it needs to be used and we usually try to keep the temperature at a steady, comfortable temperature. So that it isn't too hot and so that it isn't too cold. Though, there's no telling how much my grandfather messed with the thermostat while he was here alone. I can't work so I stay home and keep an eye on all the pets. That's also a way of making sure it's not too cold or too hot in the house. We have pets in our dining room (our snakes who have their own heat lamps) and we have pets in our hallway (feeder mice and gerbils - gerbils are temporarily in there), and we have some in the living room and front bedroom. I will move the rats depending on if the front bedroom is getting smoke from where my grandfather likes to burn stuff to the side of the house like an idiot. And that's really hard for me to do thanks to this really bad chronic pain in my rib and back. So despite my pain, I make sure they're in a good area where they aren't going to be effected by the air around them or the temperature.
5) The temperature as I said above generally stays the same and is a good temperature for all here. We have felt for her if she needs to curl up in it to keep warmer and I'm working on making a pouch for if she wants to go in there but I'm just afraid that simply from her body heat that she'll get too hot and get sick. :/

Gr. I'm so confused as to what to do with her. I am actually looking for a rat companion for her that is around the same age and size. When we got her she was 8 weeks according to the breeder that the pet store got her from. The pet store called my dad immediately to let us know that they had a hairless in. They know us from one of the managers moving from a different store and remembering how much I loved rats and knew that I loved hairless rats and always took great care of mine. They even gave me an elderly rat to care for until the end of his days that they had gotten from a couple who could no longer care for him. He loved being on my shoulder and lounging around on my lap and on the couch and anywhere he could just chill.

And she's still fine with me once she's out of the cage. It's getting her out of the cage that she doesn't seem to like. I'm very patient with her and I don't rush into the cage to get her out or anything like that. It's just odd to me that she suddenly doesn't like to be gotten out but she's fine with being out. She'll run away and then come back to me and then she'll run away and come back. She'll climb up onto my shoulder and then she'll crawl into my lap and curl up in my lap and lay there. She doesn't fall asleep usually but will just lay there. No speedy breathing or anything. And once she's had her fun adventuring if I have a small treat or two to give her, she'll take it from me and sit there and eat it like I said before. I've never run into this. So that's why I'm so confused as to handle the situation.

And thanks for any and all help. The reason I started this thread was so I could get some help. Ask any questions you need to.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't know what the correct body temperature is for a rat, but I suppose someone must. I have a multi-meter that does circuit temps but you would be better off finding the number out of a text book rather than rely on my meter and my rats. Then measure your rats temp, with one of the digital snap shot things if you have or can borrow one. If Tibbers is sick, you are chasing your tail with training. Our Fuzzy Rat has massive tumors and some days she's just not up for much anymore. Other days she can still pull herself together for a play session, but she's not the active, self confident, agile and inquisitive rat she used to be. Walking is hard for her, much less play with the kids. Illness affects your rats personality.

Second if Tibbes is an only rat she needs several hours a day out of the cage with you. When Fuzzy Rat was alone, we kept her out of the cage for at least 6 hours each day and sometimes she was with us from morning to night and fell asleep with my daughter in the easy chair. I realize that some immersions take less that 6 hours, but for an only rat, 6 hours may actually be a normal day of human contact.

Well, you also had a break in your routine... basically 4 days away, that's a long time for an only rat. When we went out Fuzzy Rat always came with us. We never left her alone for more than a few hours at a time, much less 4 days. Even with a roomie now we've never been away for a whole day.

Pretty much, you really have a little of everything in play. Health, no companion, too little and irregular together time (compounded by your sister's hospital stay). 

I won't address the health issues, many young rats get the new rat sniffles and sneezies, which goes away in a week or so, but I have no real experience with hairless rats. As to temperature issues, furry rats go down at 85 degrees. If you are over 85 degrees I suspect even a hairless rat might be in trouble.. I'm guessing a temperature in the mid 70 degree range should be about right for a hairess, but that's based on where my furry rats seem to feel most comfy which would be about 5 degrees cooler. Someone with hairless experience could better answer this question.

But I'm thinking that your problems are not socialization, if they are not health related. Tibbers is an only rat that needs several hours a day of companionship. She either needs a roomie, or she needs you to step up to the plate and attach her to you pretty much full time. If she's healthy and you keep her out of the cage whenever you are home, and you said you are home a lot then the issue should resolve itself. Even a perfectly immersed rat or a trust trained one will get squirrely if you leave it alone too long without a companion. A furry rat of similar size and age might work to keep Tibbers warm and happy if another naked one is unobtainable or you are going to have to work her into your daily activities.

I realize my reply isn't a silver bullet, and I'm sure you already thought of most of the things I said, but as I'm not in your house to really give you a precise diagnosis this is what comes to mind off the top of my head reading your comments... Hopefully someone with a specialty in hairless rats can add more.

Best luck.


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

She's been out with me almost all day every day. I'm working on making her her own space so she can run around and play a little more freely. She's still running hot and sadly we don't have one of the temperature laser things. My uncle does but... He's in Florida. >.< Haha. But she seems to be quite a bit happier about being taken out of her cage when I get her. She's been falling asleep in my lap too. Lol. So that's good I guess. We have neen looking for a furry girl. I just want one that is good tempered and wouldn't give me a really hard time when getting them prepared to live together.









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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Hairless should be warmer due to higher metabolism because they lack hair...no? I've always heard they have higher metabolism, so it seems to make sense... Anyone know? 

Honestly, do the training you're comfortable with and you feel is working ! Just make sure to spend lots of time with her at first, so she can bond to you and get used to you ... Sit in the bathroom with your ipad and at cheerios with her and chill (ahhh, fun times with my babies ) have fun with her! If shes timid, just keep working on her... Pick her up every day, read her body language...

I have two babies: one i used a kind of immersion with, and one i did not. Keep in mind, neither would dare bite me, and never has.

The one i did not:
I have a very timid girl who would not let me pick her up before, and would wriggle out of my hands like i was trying to kill her! I did not put up with this behavior... I moved slow at first, and still picked her up briefly every day, pet her while she was in the cage, give her treats off my hand like thin layers of peanut butter or jam ... as more time went on, i just made it clear to her that 1) i wont hurt you! and 2) im boss.....I'd still pick her up every day, but i kept her with me for a minute or two when she started wriggling.... id keep holding her firmly against my tummy and tell her "No!" When she starts flipping... Then, when shed calm down, I'd give her something incredibly yummy! I didn't do immersion with her, because she's the kind of rat that gets traumatized easily... She was very timid, scared, not used to being touched by humans, not affectionate, etc...

Now she knows, when mom picks her up, its against the rules to launch herself. She often comes to me when they're out for free time, checks on me... Sleeps underneath blankets with me.... She's not scared of me because I forced her to get to know me  Every day, i just upped it a notch.... i didn't really do immersion with this one, i just did it in my way..., but I knew her personality was different than my other girl, who i did do a kind of immersion with. 

The one i sort of did:
She's my other wild child, who voluntarily ventured out of her cage, and wanted to explore, and wasn't afraid of me for more than a day or two  but... The reason it probably wasn't pure immersion is that, although I did do the long marathon session , I only started bugging her to interact constantly once she was a bit more comfortable. I kept the cage door opened and talked to her, put my hand near her... And I waited till she came out,.,, bribed her with treats, mostly... Etc  

I DO see a difference! The one i sort of forced her to socialize with me in a long marathon session, I can grab her, flip her over on her back and tickle her belly, kiss her all over, bug her, etc... And she'll come back for more  the other girl IS getting there, its just taking more time. I'm sure if i played rough with her, shed be traumatized. She's a little princess *rolls eyes* .





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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Oh wow, I didn't see that last post... Dude, if she's sleeping on you, you got nothin to worry about! You guys are bonded/bonding naturally  


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks for the responses!! 
She fell asleep on me the first time a few days ago and I was so excited. xD Then she fell asleep for a long time yesterday in my lap. She's a sweety pie.

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