# Best age to adopt rats at?



## justcallmehim

I'm looking to adopt three males from a local shelter; they're listed as a month old and I was wondering if I should wait to adopt them (or work out something where they hold the rats for an amount of time) because of their age? Or is it better to adopt them this young?
I've seen mixed things of how old ratties should be before being taken away from their litter mates and mother, anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 weeks, so I wanted to know everyone's opinions?


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## Gribouilli

Do you know for sure they are still with their mom? Yes, 5 weeks is the minimum recommended, but since they are in a shelter where they are probably stressed and not socialized, I would go get them now. If they were in a loving environment where they were well taking care of, socialized, played with... than I would wait a little longer. Not here. Just my opinion.


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## justcallmehim

I'm not sure if they are honestly, theres very little information about them up on the site other than their age, color, and gender. (Ultimately if I adopt them it will be up to me meeting with them) They're actually being held at a vets office that works along with the shelter, so I don't know if that makes a difference in how much handling they receive?


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## Rat Daddy

We adopt rats as young as two weeks old, although I prefer three to four as it doesn't require eyedropper feeding them. * BUT* we socialize them around the clock... literally to the point of just about sleeping with them and giving them constant attention, like they would get with mom and rat siblings. We prefer not to let someone else screw up our rats before we get them.

So if you are going to adopt all three, so they will have each other and have the time to play with pups... and I mean a lot of time, then yes... grab them before they get screwed by neglect or worse. They should be eating solid foods, but will need extra protein and fat and lots of love and attention... 

By adopting early, you can form a better forever bond with your pups, but you can also screw them up. It's like adopting a human baby... sure it would be easier to adopt a 17 year old, but if you adopt a baby you can mold their personality.. for better or worse.


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## moonkissed

Adopting super young babies does NOT give you an edge on forming some super magic bond, as some may suggest. It is extremely sad to see people ever suggest this as it often leads to older rats (and other animals) wasting away at shelters because people are afraid they can not bond with them. It is simply not true. I adopted two boys who were close to 2 years old & they were the most amazing guys ever. My one boy Apollo would run to me the moment he saw me and give me kisses and just want to be held forever. Blue likes to just chill on my lap or near me all the time. 

Rats are extremely social animals. If they have good temperament then it is not going to matter their age, they want to bond with people and will quite easily and it will be the deepest bond. 


IMO it is actually very harmful to adopt rats so young. While sadly we do not have laws against it, there are laws giving a minimum age for puppies & kittens and it is for a good reason. Babies do need their mom for nutrition but also to learn rat social behavior and become amazing well rounded rats. We can do alot to teach babies but teaching them how to rat or communicate with other rats... not so much lol

As for personality, I really think many rats develop their own. If not then all of my rats would be exact clones since I've raised them all right? lol Temperament is by far mostly genetic. The only thing getting them young will help is if to prevent negative or traumatic influences but if they are coming from a good place that is unlikely to happen.

IMO 5 weeks is by far the minimum age to get a baby from. But it is far from ideal. I'd prefer to see 6 weeks. I am a breeder and going to be waiting between 8-12 weeks to sell my babies now even. I was just discussing it with other breeders and many agree the longer they stay with mom the better!

In your case, I would ask if they are still with mom. Sadly alot of people think they have to separate babies at 4 weeks so they may have already  If they already have and they are not with other adult rats, I would suggest taking them as it won't make a difference.


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## RatAtat2693

If they're with mom still, leave them be for a few weeks. If they're not, then go ahead and grab them at five. I get mine at around 5-6 weeks.

Do not get a two week old pup. Don't get anything under five weeks. Ever. Doesn't matter what formula you buy, it will never be as good as mom's milk. Doesn't matter what socialization you give them. You're not a rat, and from a behaviorist's point of view, it's imprinting at best. Which is really not best. You're basically giving an animal an identity crisis. I understand why RD does it, but really, just don't.

I have a whole menagerie of animals that were taken from their parents too soon because someone else thought it was cuter or couldn't wait. Why are they with me? Because they're (lovable) nut cases.

In all reality, pretty much any age is great, provided you get an animal that hasn't been traumatized. Babies are easier to bond with, but older rats are just as capable.

The only time I'm really specific is when I'm selecting a program rat because I use that rat to work with other, usually biting, rats. There's a bit of training that goes into that, so I need them under six months so that they're pliable and, more importantly, have enough time left with me that I get back the time I put into them. I love them, and they're pets, but they have a job to do. Like a working dog.


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## Andromeda

I've never adopted baby rats, but if I did, I would wait until 6 weeks. :/ It's the same thing as when people say you shouldn't adopt a puppy until it's 2 months old. That's because it needs those 2 months with it's mother and brothers and sisters to learn how to be a dog. xP

It's the same with rats. They need those 5-8 weeks with their mother and litter mates to learn how to be rats. If you separate them too soon, I imagine you could run into behavioral problems in the future when it comes to socializing them with other rats.


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## JAnimal

I adopted at almost 5 weeks from the shelter. They had about 15 rats and the mom looked like she needed to be deprived of babies instantly. So, I took them. They are great and I never had any problems at all with socializing or health issues. They were the only two left also. I feel like if I left them either a) someone was going to adopt them or b) they were not going to be used to humans because of the sheer number of rats and other pets the shelter had to look after.


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## Nieve5552

Id say at least past 5 weeks if they are still with their mother and suckling, because they need maximum amount of nutrients they can get from the milk. The milk gives them better immune system so if you want healthier rats, dont take them away from their mother too young. If they are already separated from their mother, I think itd be better to get them now because you will probably be able to spend more time socialising them than the shelter people. If they're currently at the vets, sounds like they would be getting good care (healthwise), but I believe vets or vet nurses would be too busy to spend extra time socialising them


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## Fu-Inle

I have to agree with moonkissed, you don't have to adopt a baby in order to develop a good bond with it. Though, I am a bit more understanding about prefering young over old when it comes to rats than say, a dog or cat, because of their short lifespans. But the whole thing about old animals not being as close to you as baby animals needs to die. Btw: not directing this at anyone, just speaking in general. I have nothing against adopting young animals, what I am against is the idea that old animals aren't as good as young ones.


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## Finnebon

I adopted a pregnant girl who was full grown. I'm guessing at least 6 months old maybe when I got her. She was the best animal I've ever met and had the blessing to share a couple years of my life with. Her babies are wonderful too, and I kept half of her litter who are now almost 3 years old, but she was just the best ever. I know I will never find any species of animal that can ever hope to match up to her (and I live with other rats, dogs, cats, and rabbits and have lived with others over the years who were special to me too). But I know that no one will ever match up to my Bijou, and my heart will never be whole again since she took a piece with her when she had to be put to sleep last year... I still cry over her and miss her desperately.

You can find your soulmate no matter how old they or you are. Give adults a chance if you get the opportunity. Young babies are a ton of fun to raise and see grow up too, but it doesn't mean you will have any more of a connection with them than one that is already full grown. Like I said, her babies are precious to me, even more so since one is special needs and gets special medical attention almost daily. It's been an indescribable joy to see her babies from birth to death and watch them grow and catalog their lives in pictures and notes, but no one can come close to my Bijou.


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## Rat Daddy

From the perspective as a pet, I agree... age doesn't matter much, perhaps at all. 

But please keep in mind, my girls aren't just pets... they have to do things normal rats, even wild rats wouldn't ever dream of.... The kind of self confidence that a rat needs to be a true shoulder rat needs to be developed nearly from birth... Older rats that haven't been exposed to high stress situations are often a lot more reluctant to engage in them. It's also MUCH easier to work with a pup rather than a fast and agile adult that can easily out-sprint me if it wants to.

Cases in point:

This was Max when we adopted her at two weeks old:









This was Max at six weeks old:






















Max was in a feeder bin in a store that didn't hold rats... so it was take her or leave her... She was a lot of work to raise, but she was worth it. We learned a lot about raising very young rat pups in the process and a lot about their emotional needs... She had two rat friends Amelia and Cloud. 

And this is Misty adopted between 3 and 4 weeks old with her friend Cloud... she's now leader to her pack of Bunny and Lucky and having the time of her ratty life.










And Fuzzy Rat with her friend Fluffy, both adopted at 3 weeks old and my daughter when she was only 5... (not adopted)










Our rats speak rat just fine and became social with rats as well as humans... I'm not pretending I got lucky once.... We put in the hours it takes to raise great pups and I'm pretty proud of our success stories.

It is however much easier to adopt an older rat... We adopted Amelia at 7 months old and although she never became a shoulder rat she loved us and bonded well with us... She would play and come when called. Otherwise, she came out of hiding every day... said hello, ate, went to sleep took care of the aging Fuzzy Rat overnight and evaporated into the woodwork like clockwork when we opened her cage in the morning. She was the perfect 'no maintenance' rat for people who don't want a rat around. And she could be lots of fun when you did.

As to keeping rat pups with their mom for 8 weeks... We adopted Bunny at 8 weeks old and she was already two weeks pregnant. We separated Spot from his mom and his sister at 5 weeks and he was already getting frisky... I might add that Bunny pretty much stopped hanging out with her pups at 3 weeks anyway and left them to our care... Even now, Lucky spends as much time if not more with her great aunt Misty than her mom. 

Maybe an accidental litter isn't such a bad thing for a breeder, but I'm not a breeder, nor do I want to be a breeder. We still have Spot with us who needs a forever home and is in no way benefiting from being a single rat. And honestly with Bunny and Lucky we don't have the time to care for him the way he should be cared for. He should have gone to a great forever home two weeks ago like his brothers and sisters.. now he's treading water and wasting his life in a cage. He's so sweet, smart and wonderful, it hurts my heart.

I've now raised rats from birth and adopted them at two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, seven weeks and eight weeks and 7 months old. We have loved and bonded with all of them. The seven month old never passed muster as a shoulder rat and took the longest to even house train... She came with a lot of luggage that never went away... but she was sweet and smart and I'm happy we knew her. 

On a side note, I agree that personality is partially predetermined from birth... but how a rat is raised makes as much or more of a difference than it's genetics when it comes to how that personality is expressed. Our part wild rat Fluffy was ultra high strung and she was vicious when upset. She ate bugs, killed and ate smaller animals, and mixed it up with feral cats... not to mention she hung out with the neighbor's pit bulls while she lived on her own outdoors and in other people's homes... She was absolutely the kind of rat that inspires fear in people's hearts... But she was hand raised and my daughter could and did stuff her into doll clothes. I once even did a meet and greet with her at my daughter's school... and she met a lot of kids that when properly introduced, she even liked... (we got accidentally mobbed, this was anything but planned) She never did our shoulder rat program, but as you can imagine, after 5 months on her own, outdoors didn't bother her in the least. So, if a vicious wild type rat... with a dangerous personality can become a loving furry friend to a little girl, I'd have to say proper socialization counts for a whole lot. No, it won't change a rats "personality" but it will change the way a rat will express itself and in the end that's what matters most. A rat with a great natural personality can be mistreated and start biting... Which is better a nice rat that bites or a vicious rat that snuggles?

If someone has an agenda that says that older rats make wonderful pets... I can support that wholeheartedly. If someone wants to keep their rats with their moms for longer and doesn't mind the risks of accidental pregnancy... as long as they are willing to raise the litter, that's their choice, so I have no issues with them... If someone says that it's easier to adopt older rats... I agree that's true. If someone has personal experience with a mom that did a better job of raising their pups than they could... again I'm no breeder and I won't dispute that... 

But I've trained 4 true shoulder rats, all have had multiple rat friends, all have become remarkable best furry friends to us. So, I'm pretty sure my way works too. I'm not saying it works 'better', just better for us and our rats. And yes, Cloud who was adopted at 8 weeks old became a terrific true shoulder rat too and we're still working with Bunny as well as Lucky. And to be honest... Spot has lots of potential with the right forever family.

Anyone is more than welcome to come over and meet Misty or see her doing her thing at the park or safe site and meet and even adopt Spot. I'm more than happy and enthusiastic to back up my methods with living proof. 

So to be perfectly clear... _I'm not saying that anybody else is wrong_, just that our way works just fine for us.

Still shamelessly promoting Spot to a great forever home... I've got to get some new pics and vids from my daughter, but I think she's getting attached.. he's a lot bigger and handsomer now....

https://vid.me/VmDd


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## Gribouilli

Research shows that rat temperament is mostly genetic. Any good breeder will know that from experience. That's why scientists breed neurotic rats to research depression. Or aggressive rats to test meds that decreases aggression. There are plenty of research about depression and lack of nurturing during early childhood as shown in animals that have been taken from their mom too early in their development.


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## Rat Daddy

Nature vs nurture... it's been debated since the dawn of time... Both matter equally in my opinion... And one influences the other... If raised in a vacuum, certain rats should be genetically predisposed to being calmer and easier going than other rats, and certain rats are likely to be naturally more aggressive or even vicious... but who would raise a rat in a vacuum? And how would anyone even do it? And again, why....? On the other hand, does anyone doubt that someone can screw up a naturally friendly rat by neglect or abuse?

Just because someone adopts a rat that doesn't have a natural easy going personality doesn't mean they can't work with their rat to make them fabulous pets and best furry friends. People shouldn't just give up on rats that aren't naturally as sweet as another. Some rats will take more work than others, but they are well worth the trouble.

In the photo I posted about with my daughter one of the rats was naturally friendly from birth, the other was born vicious and actually hurt people... badly... I'll bet you can't tell the difference....

Here's another photo...









Both rats adopted at 3 weeks old... one vicious one sweet. My neighbor made the mistake of grabbing the wrong one and got his hand shredded for the mistake... The other was Fuzzy Rat, who loved everyone and despite several serious injuries, she never bit anyone... Very different nature, same nurture... can you tell them apart?

And yes, if they didn't know you... you would be able to tell by the searing pain and blood squirting everywhere when you picked up the wrong one... And if you dropped something there would only be one anywhere to be found... but both rats were wonderful furry friends to our family. Good nurture can overcome bad nature up to a point. And this was likely the most extreme case of opposites anyone is ever going to experience.

As to lack of nurturing being detrimental to pups... I STRONGLY AGREE! I just don't agree that healthy nurturing can't come from humans as well as from their natural mother. 

As to the studies on nurturing... one actually proved that a piece of carpet disguised as a monkey provided some degree of nurturing to baby monkeys... I think we can both agree that the study was despicable, but we provide our pups with a lot more love than a chunk of carpet. Studies and experiments done in a controlled environment are fine and well... but I have actual rats raised in an actual household to back up my theories... and anyone is welcome to meet them, hold them and fall in love for themselves.


I'm not saying that anyone is wrong... I just know my way works too.


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## moonkissed

> Maybe an accidental litter isn't such a bad thing for a breeder, but I'm not a breeder, nor do I want to be a breeder. We still have Spot with us who needs a forever home and is in no way benefiting from being a single rat. And honestly with Bunny and Lucky we don't have the time to care for him the way he should be cared for. He should have gone to a great forever home two weeks ago like his brothers and sisters.. now he's treading water and wasting his life in a cage. He's so sweet, smart and wonderful, it hurts my heart.


A breeder doesn't keep boys and girls together for 8 weeks, if that is what you took from my post? Generally it is accepted to separate the sexes at 5 weeks. I know a few breeders who wait 6 weeks. 

I think when one decides to take on the role of raising a litter they should be prepared for all that comes with it, including keeping all of the babies if it has to be. We can't plan on how many babies or what sexes we get. It comes with the job- having the time, money, effort, space to care for all of the babies if need be, having multiple cages to separate sexes, planning who to keep/who to sell so everyone goes to a good home but also so no one is going to be in a situation where they are alone IMO. So that would mean selling in only pairs or even selling 3 or keeping 3 if it meant they could stay together. IMO it is always ideal to do what is best for the rats mental & physical well being.

Or perhaps getting your boy neutered so he can live with your girls? 




> But please keep in mind, my girls aren't just pets... they have to do things normal rats, even wild rats wouldn't ever dream of.... The kind of self confidence that a rat needs to be a true shoulder rat needs to be developed nearly from birth... Older rats that haven't been exposed to high stress situations are often a lot more reluctant to engage in them. It's also MUCH easier to work with a pup rather than a fast and agile adult that can easily out-sprint me if it wants to.


First how many people are going to do anything like that with their pets? So giving advice on it from your perspective but for a completely different situation seems kindof strange no? Shouldn't you atleast clarify that when giving advice?

Secondly sure a baby may be easier to train, a bit of a blank slate but how much easier? eh it depends alot. I saw a video of this amazing animal trainer who trains them for movies and tv and gets all their stars from rescues and shelters. Adult animals! You can teach an old dog/rat lol new tricks! I just started teaching my girl over a year some tricks even. 



I wonder Rat Daddy with all your depth of knowledge on this subject... how many rats have you had? How many rats have you raised as a tiny baby vs gotten as adults? 

I would think it is really easy to see things in a certain light when looking out a small window but if you step outside & can see the entire yard, street, etc.. from every direction it is going to give you an entirely different picture, no?



> On a side note, I agree that personality is partially predetermined from birth... but how a rat is raised makes as much or more of a difference than it's genetics when it comes to how that personality is expressed.


why? What makes you believe that? 

Actual Scientific studies have shown that genetics play by far the major role. I was just reading very interesting articles on the silver foxes. Where someone separated foxes into two groups and bred one for tameness and the other aggressive. It is very interesting. They did the exact same study with rats as well.

I raise babies. I do fairly much the exact same thing with all my babies. I have a pretty solid routine & timeline so babies pretty much get nearly the same upbringing and experiences. Yet babies from different lines can be extremely different as night from day! How do you explain that?
One line I was working with did not have the best temperament (not aggressive but not ideal to me) & I removed them from my breeding lines because of it. How would you explain how ALL of the babies from that line have such hugely different temperament then my other lines? 

And it is just not my opinion, like 99% of breeders I have ever met agree that genetics play a major role. These are not people who have had a handful of rats, but some of the most experienced rat breeders in the country who have raised countless litters for years and years now. Not saying anyone is perfect but that kind of experience has to say something. I even know a lovely breeder who is working on raising/breeding Black rats (_Rattus rattus)_. These breeders are not raising their babies in controlled labs  I am not either. Breeders even suggest people raise a litter completely hands off to test it. This is not some magical theory that can not be proven  It is proven daily. My two different litters with completely different personalities can show that. If nurture played a heavy role, every rat I produced would be absolutely perfect. But they are not. I wouldnt have to do temperament testing on babies to see who I keep. Some of the new lines I got, I am fairly sure I am going to have to go several generations in before selling any before I am happy with their temperament. They are lovely but not ideal to me. I am not an expert by any means. Breeding plays a heavy role in my life, I dedicate an insane amount of time/energy to learning all things rat  Honestly I do spend every day as if it were my job, because it is my life. But I am not speaking only with my own thoughts, but from other breeders opinions on the subject. And if anyone is curious on these other breeders opinions, PM me I will give you groups where these breeders have discussed these topics and you can read what they truthfully have to say. 

I do believe nurture plays a role but I have heard this beautiful quote that says something like: "nature determines how far nurture will get you" I think that sums it up perfectly. 



I am very confused by your posts...



> Both rats adopted at 3 weeks old... one vicious one sweet. My neighbor made the mistake of grabbing the wrong one and got his hand shredded for the mistake... The other was Fuzzy Rat, who loved everyone and despite several serious injuries, she never bit anyone... Very different nature, same nurture... can you tell them apart?


eh what? Does that not prove everything I am saying? lol 

If nurture plays the stronger role then both of those rats should have sweet?


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## Rat Daddy

To answer your last question first... yes both rats were sweet. They both adored my then 5 year old daughter. So I could leave her alone with either of them. Imagine leaving a 5 year old little girl alone to squish a vicious rat into dolls clothes or pull it around in a little toy car... But yes I could do that. Her temperament, or perhaps what you might be calling 'personality' was volatile and her instincts were not only to bite, but to tear flesh. Even during play fighting she went straight for the face and eyes. And there's no way she belonged in anyone's breeding program. But because she was hand raised and treated with constant love and attention she would actually nap on my lap and snuggle to sleep with my little girl every night. In general she didn't trust anyone she didn't know, she had a relatively short fuse and went berserk snapping and clawing like the Tasmanian devil when she got upset, but she had wonderful manners and had a very gentle and loving side too. Through tender care and lots of love she learned to control herself and manage her violent tendencies. One rat was sweet by nature the other through nurture.

As to being a breeder... I'm not, don't want to be one and have no interest in ever doing it again. I currently adopt rats from a very gifted breeder with a super healthy line of rats that do exceptionally well in training. We adopted an 8 week old rat that shouldn't have been pregnant... well accidents happen and we are trying to give the terrific pups good homes. That's it. No spare cages, and no accommodations for surplus rats. Three girls tearing up my home is way too much already. I train shoulder rats for competency and self confidence, and I don't ever pretend otherwise. Those that don't make it through the program do get to live out their lives in comfort and receive all of the love and attention they deserve. A shoulder rat is first a best furry friend before it ever goes outside so we don't hold it against any rat that can't perform as well as another. It's nice to have two true shoulder rats to work with, but one is just fine and I'm happy to have two rats that we love even if they can't be TSR's. But as I'm sitting here typing, I'm hearing things falling all over the house and its unnerving... the girls should be better behaved already and the whole breeding thing has set my progress back weeks.

As to studies, I'm familiar with the fox study. But it never actually determined what quality of personality that made some foxes vicious and other's more docile, as best I recall. I also recall that both populations were derived from the same original group of "domestic" fur foxes. So both docile and aggressive traits were part of at least the original population. It also didn't take into account for the level of socialization and interaction the different groups of foxes got. I like the study, I think it's valid, but I wouldn't read more into it than is there.

When I was in college, the idea that all babies are born tableau rasa was popular. Everything was nurture... It justified the concept that all people were created equal and the idea that genetics played a roll in intelligence or personality was considered eugenics. When I was in College you could have gotten expelled for suggesting that human personality traits might be related to their genetic history, race or ethnicity... I got over that a long time ago... but I'm not a fan of eugenics either. 

One of my favorite studies between line bred smart mice vs line bred stupid mice only proved that some mice are more sensitive to elevator movement. When the elevator moved the stupid mice wouldn't perform and the elevator in the building where the lab was moved a lot. When the study was replicated elsewhere both groups of mice performed equally well.

Qualities such as environmental sensitivity seem to have been proven to be genetic. When there was a loud noise outside the house, our "vicious" rat disappeared for hours, while our calm shoulder rat didn't even flinch... this was most likely a genetic difference. There are absolutely differences in the characteristics of every rat, even from the same litter. 

Eyesight, hearing, adrenaline boost, anxiety level and fear threshold and perhaps even to some degree intelligence can have genetic components. But nurture is important too....

An interesting study on humans found that there may be a genetic component to sociopathy. There appears to be a sociopath gene... people with this gene tend to lack empathy. Interestingly many (most?) diagnosed sociopathic criminals tend to have this gene, but so do many very successful people, including the researcher who discovered it. So if you have the the sociopath gene, you are either pre-disposed to becoming a serial killer or a successful scientific researcher... Businessmen often talk about having a killer instinct... maybe that's very much the case... 

In breeding for better personality, you might be breeding rats that are less sensitive to environmental stress, so they are less jumpy, you may be selecting rats with lower hormonal levels that might produce rats that are less aggressive, you might not select for rats that bite fast, often and tear flesh and are super high strung. Certain traits can be bred for, while I'm far from sure that you can actually breed for 'personality' per se.

The danger with eugenics is that it creates pop culture excuses for racism and discrimination. Some people and some rats are just born bad... Some groups are just worse than others.. and finally lets exterminate the inferior lines.... Does anybody else see any problems with that? In fact our vicious rats nasty qualities let her thrive outdoors for 5 months, they were an essential part of her make up and were perfectly valid adaptations for rats to have. Maybe, we might not want to breed all of those qualities out of our rats. Just a passing thought...

But if someone adopts a problem rat, eugenics is a easy answer and provides an easy justification to do unthinkable things to that rat. It was genetically defective and can't be helped so why not just take it back to he pet shop or set it free or worse... 

So yes... nature matters, but I have to side with nurture because of my own experiences and because I think it gives people incentive to work with their problem rats to make them better furry friends. If someone does adopt a screwed up older rat, how do they know it is a problem of heritage and not some creepy kid working at the pet shop that played rat toss with it? Why should anyone give up when the vast majority of rats can be fixed or at least vastly improved through proper socialization? Eugenics exists because there is a certain body of empirical evidence to support it, but it's not a social mantra because it isn't the whole story and nor is it beneficial to real world situations.... Should we lock up people with bad genetics forever? Or exterminate them? Or do we concentrate on rehabilitating people.. and rats with unfortunate predispositions. 

Although empirical science shouldn't be dictated by philosophy, sometimes we need to adjust our focus on what we can fix to provide the best likely outcome. As a breeder you work on genetics as a trainer, I work on nurture. We see things differently because we have different perspectives.

Question...
I'm not sure why you would keep rats you separate from their mom at 5 weeks, why wouldn't they be better off in their forever homes bonding with their forever families and new rat friends? Bunny pretty much moved out from the pups at 3 weeks old, by 4 weeks old they were already pre-socialized
and ready to bond with their forever mommies and daddies, and friends, why should they be treading water with us when someone could be devoting full time love and attention to them and doing a better job for them in the long run?

And by the way...








(daddy please pay the ransom an get us out of here)

Misty, Lucky and Bunny... getting along... Great Aunt Misty is a year old, adopted at 3-4 weeks, Lucky is almost six weeks old and Bunny... Lucky's mom.


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## Andromeda

Rat Daddy said:


> So yes... nature matters, but I have to side with nurture because of my own experiences and because I think it gives people incentive to work with their problem rats to make them better furry friends. If someone does adopt a screwed up older rat, how do they know it is a problem of heritage and not some creepy kid working at the pet shop that played rat toss with it? Why should anyone give up when the vast majority of rats can be fixed or at least vastly improved through proper socialization? Eugenics exists because there is a certain body of empirical evidence to support it, but it's not a social mantra because it isn't the whole story and nor is it beneficial to real world situations.... Should we lock up people with bad genetics forever? Or exterminate them? Or do we concentrate on rehabilitating people.. and rats with unfortunate predispositions.
> 
> Although empirical science shouldn't be dictated by philosophy, sometimes we need to adjust our focus on what we can fix to provide the best likely outcome. As a breeder you work on genetics as a trainer, I work on nurture. We see things differently because we have different perspectives.


I think you're correct to an extent. I believe that you can take almost any rat, regardless of previous treatment, and with proper care and handling, rehabilitate it into a friendly pet. I do not, however, believe that every single rat is capable of becoming the ideal velcro-rat that loves to be handled and cuddled. I think that's where genetics comes in. If you have a rat that is naturally timid, it's just never going to be as trusting as a rat that is bred to be friendly. That's the reason so many breeders focus on temperament, and why a lot of pet store rats with poor genetics are nervous and harder to tame.


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## moonkissed

> To answer your last question first... yes both rats were sweet. They both adored my then 5 year old daughter. So I could leave her alone with either of them. Imagine leaving a 5 year old little girl alone to squish a vicious rat into dolls clothes or pull it around in a little toy car... But yes I could do that. Her temperament, or perhaps what you might be calling 'personality' was volatile and her instincts were not only to bite, but to tear flesh. Even during play fighting she went straight for the face and eyes. And there's no way she belonged in anyone's breeding program. But because she was hand raised and treated with constant love and attention she would actually nap on my lap and snuggle to sleep with my little girl every night. In general she didn't trust anyone she didn't know, she had a relatively short fuse and went berserk snapping and clawing like the Tasmanian devil when she got upset, but she had wonderful manners and had a very gentle and loving side too. Through tender care and lots of love she learned to control herself and manage her violent tendencies. One rat was sweet by nature the other through nurture.


I do not understand what you are trying to say here I guess, just a miscommunication?

Because a rat that is aggressive is not sweet? That is not a good pet IMO. It seems like you are saying she became a bit calmer but was still aggressive? That doesn't seem like a success to me? 

I am not saying nurture does nothing, ofcourse it plays a role. But like I said- "nature determines how far nurture will get you". Why was that 3 week old baby aggressive? Did something traumatic happen in that short span to cause that? Did something super wonderful happen to make the other sweet? It was their genetics that laid out the path. 

But you are saying it yourself, even with a loving home she was not the same as your other girl.



> We adopted an 8 week old rat that shouldn't have been pregnant...


Yeah but you made that choice to adopt her... still your responsibility when you agreed to take her. I would assume a good breeder would by far have better resources for her even if her litter was not planned. But you still decided to take that on, and should have excepted all that comes with having babies- meaning spare cages, choices on how to rehome, and what happens if you couldn't. I mean what if you couldn't find homes for any of them? What would you have done then? What if she had 20 all boys.... 



> So both docile and aggressive traits were part of at least the original population.


Well yeah that is how it works  They kept choosing the most tamest to breed in the one group and the most aggressive to breed in the other. I highly suggest everyone read up on it as well as the studies on rats that relate to it. 
That is the same way breeders work though, I choose the babies with the best temperament (among other things) to keep and breed. Keep choosing the best of the best. And then each generation gets alittle bit better.
It is pretty exciting info in the scientific community & even goes along with how we first began domesticating animals at all. I think it is a truly amazing piece of science that we should take seriously.



> The danger with eugenics is that it creates pop culture excuses for racism and discrimination. Some people and some rats are just born bad...


People are not the same as animals. Humans are far more complicated. Even very intelligent animals are still much more simple to understand. We can also narrow what makes a good pet vs what doesn't pretty easily & focus on that. What do we want in a good rat? Being super tame & friendly, not being anxious, not fearful jumpy, not aggressive, doesn't bite, no hormonal aggression. Confident and seeks out human attention. That is what we can control and shape in genetic temperament. As breeders we are looking for these things. Like obvious things- no hormonal aggression, never breed a biter, moms who are not stressed or aggressive in any way, and then other things on how they react not being anxious or fearful. One test for example is the scruff test. You scruff the baby & some rats will fight- squirm, wiggle, try to get loose, spread their arms/legs and flay about, their tail going mad, etc... other rats will right away relax and curl their feet up, gotta love those feet curls. Another test is holding a rat on their back. These are not the only things but a good example. (** please don't go around scruffing rats lol it is not super nice, but can be useful in some cases to check them over, support their butts if you do)










I'm not discussing politics or religion with the rats & seeking their view to judge  lol It is just as simple as how they react.

And you are right...



> In breeding for better personality, you might be breeding rats that are less sensitive to environmental stress, so they are less jumpy, you may be selecting rats with lower hormonal levels that might produce rats that are less aggressive, you might not select for rats that bite fast, often and tear flesh and are super high strung. Certain traits can be bred for, while I'm far from sure that you can actually breed for 'personality' per se.


I would agree personality does not equal temperament exactly, while there is some overlap.

When breeding for temperament we are breeding for things like less anxious rats, which can rule and affect a wide range of factors of their personality. The licking rat study is my fav. It shows how less anxious moms bathe their babies more often and are more nurturing and this actually changes the babies and makes them less anxious themselves! So if you already have a mom that is less anxious and she is in a good environment and not stressed she is going to in turn make those babies less anxious. That is both nature & nurture. But if a rat is already anxious, giving her a wonderful loving environment is unlikely to make her calm enough and as nurturing & as ideally less anxious to pass that on. if that makes sense?




> In fact our vicious rats nasty qualities let her thrive outdoors for 5 months, they were an essential part of her make up and were perfectly valid adaptations for rats to have. Maybe, we might not want to breed all of those qualities out of our rats. Just a passing thought...


Well a pet is alot different then a wild animal. A pet should not in any way need to thrive on its own in the wild. If so we should keep them all agouti/black lol. The same thing is done with dogs. I have a tiny 10lb dog. I read an article that said in the apocalypse, these little dogs would die off very fast  But that is what we do when we breed pets, we choose qualities that make them good pets. I love my tiny little dog and she makes a great pet, she isnt gonna compete with wolves though lol



> Question...
> I'm not sure why you would keep rats you separate from their mom at 5 weeks, why wouldn't they be better off in their forever homes bonding with their forever families and new rat friends? Bunny pretty much moved out from the pups at 3 weeks old, by 4 weeks old they were already pre-socialized
> and ready to bond with their forever mommies and daddies, and friends, why should they be treading water with us when someone could be devoting full time love and attention to them and doing a better job for them in the long run?


I only separate the boys from their mom. The boys then go in with other older males.

Part of it is for health/safety. Just recently in a group I am in someone sold 2 babies boys (5 weeks old) to a woman with older males. She was supposed to do the normal 2 week quarantine which would let the babies grow quite a bit in that time. Instead she introduced them to her adult male, he attacked and killed one. A 5-6 week old is very small compared to an adult. How many people do quarantines, proper intros, etc...? 

Babies are hyper, energetic little things. I was just watching my 12 week old female bounce on top of my adult girl, like non stop as if she were a trampoline. lol She thought it was the funnest game. My adult is amazing, and just sat there tolerating it for a bit then just put her hand up and pushed her away, then held her back lol It was very silly to watch. But that girl is amazing and an amazing mom and is fine with babies (this was not her baby either). But not all adults are that good at tolerating annoying babies. I think it is worse for males, as adult males can tend to be a bit lazy but the babies are still playful. 

Two things happen here. One an adult doesn't have a good temperament and doesnt give a warning. or they do give a warning but they baby doesn't understand and doesn't stop. It can be very dangerous. While my rats are awesome, I can't speak for someone elses rats. Even more so if they haven't been around babies before & they are not sure how their rat will handle the intro. See how many posts we see with intros gone wrong.


I also think it goes into what is going on with their development. They are still babies even at 8 weeks old. While they grow very fast in a small amount of time, there is sooo much going on within that frame of time both physical and mental growth. 

this phase is really stressful on the babies with so much change so quickly.

I shared a story about a recent litter. I separated my boys at 5 weeks as normal. They had lots of build up to this moment- play dates with the boys they were going to live with, tons and tons of time away from mom before this. But the week after they kept going back to their moms/sisters cage and sleeping on/next to it and trying so hard to get back in. It was really sad. They are all kept in the same room, the scents are all over. They simply wanted their mom/sisters. They were also not interested in sex yet if anyone is thinking that lol. 

So for many babies this is a huge sudden change, get pulled away from mom and then boom you are in a new home with new scents and people. That can be quite stressful. But if you give them a larger window to adjust and grow slowly they will handle it better. 

And as a breeder one should have the proper time and energy to care for all their babies  Getting them off your hands fast is a huge issue that some BYBs do & the reason they sell babies so early. It is not in the rats best interest at all, but after 3 weeks they are eating food & then are going to need a second cage for the boys, and more time. So people wanna pass them off early. But it is not for the rats. it does not benefit them. 

You do not need your rat to be 4,5, 6, 7 etc... weeks old to bond to you. I am 100% confident in saying it is fine waiting until they are alittle more mature to get them and they will still bond with you just as strongly.
Perhaps even easier- 6-8 weeks is a bit of a silly phase for babies, it is like the awkward tween-teen years lmao I like to call it the terrible twos. Awesome rats may get alittle jumpy, test limits, etc... 

Yes 3 weeks is a pretty big point of the babies lifes, again they are growing fast in a short amount of time. At 3 weeks moms start beginning to wean them. So they have to start pushing them out more, and taking more breaks from them. But good attentive moms don't just wash their hands of the babies. It is a slow process, for a weeks time frame lol. Most are weaned by 4 weeks. They are eating on their own now and do not need mom for nutrition. But as a parent I would assume you know, parents are for alot more then just food  

From 3- about 12 weeks the babies are developing important life skills. I've had lots and lots of babies and each week seems it brings a beautiful new step of their development. I do feel at 6 weeks they are still very much babies. At around 8 weeks they have settled down quite alot and 12 weeks seem to be the real turning point. And still some babies mature even slower. 

IDK what you mean by them being pre-socialized at 4 weeks? 

I am a strong believer in rats learning alot during this developmental stage from adult rats. I think it makes for a very well balanced and adjusted rat.

I think bringing these babies into the world you need to set them up for the very best possible start. You are building a foundation for the rest of their lives. Isn't that the entire nurture side of the argument?  

I wouldn't hate on someone selling a baby at 5-6 weeks old. I don't think it is appropriate to sell any younger. I think they should be kept even older though.


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## Nieve5552

The fox experiment does show that behaviour is based largely on genetics. Both groups of foxes received almost the same amount of interaction with humans, but the disparity in genetics between the docile and aggressive groups even showed in their physical appearances, not just their behaviour. Of course when it comes to the usual domestic rats, the behaviour differences between individuals may be determined by nurture more than genetics, because their base behaviour/friendliness is to be docile to humans. But this docileness is due to genetics, as the base line of domestic rats were selectively bred to be friendly to humans. Genetics IS the main determinant of behaviour, because no matter how exactly the same you treat a domestic rat + wild rat, or dog + wolf, they will never grow to show the same kind of behaviour. 

In terms of age, I think as late as possible is the best, so that the babies get maximum amount of nutrient from their mothers. Milk is not simply just food, it provides them with better immune systems which will determine the quality of life during their entire lifespan. People say get them as young as possible so they bond better or love you more, but I see a lot of people on this forum who have adopted older rats who still gives their humans infinite amounts of love and are still able to bond as easily as the babies.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually, I suppose what I'm saying is our 'vicious' rat became a lovable pet wolf. Despite her instincts and her nature, she was a great rat when handled properly. She would have been a terrible and dangerous pet for most people, even though she became a great friend to us. Proper socialization went a long way towards her final personality. If she could become a furry friend, I think there's hope for almost any rat.

Different breeders have different skills, and tastes. I used to breed rare tropical fish. I bred to produce wild looking and acting fish and to maintain as deep a gene pool as possible. Other people liked to work with my fish to tweak into something more exotic. Sometimes they produced something nicer, and sometimes they wound up with mules. Sometimes they wound up with pretty mules, that wouldn't reproduce. Most people who don't breed don't realize you generally don't create new genes, you mostly just remove the bad ones. You pull out a blood clotting gene along with an eye color gene or bad behavioral gene and you get friendly, blue eyed dead rats. Genetics is a science, a philosophy, an art form and to a degree luck to have the right genes to start with in your population. And most people don't get that genes tend to link or occur on the same chromosome so there are things you can't improve without screwing up something else. For the most part most people should steer clear of breeding rats. The other thing to consider is just how many rats you have to breed to make any substantial progress. You need to have something to do with all of your culls or lesser than perfect results. I liked to breed annual fish, I could have hundreds of fish at any time, but they pretty much all aged out and died in a few months anyway, leaving me with room for a new hatch. Rats age quickly, but there's no way to rotate stock like that with rats. Nor would I want to.

Luckily, I now work with a breeder who produces a strain I like. They are healthy, smart and they have a relatively high energy level I like. I like to work with them and so far I've trained up 2 true shoulder rats from his stock. 2 for 2 is a great track record for any strain. They tend to go through a crazy destructive phase, but then they settle down and go to work. And so far they don't need any special care and don't get mammary tumors, which is a nice bonus.

I understand your breeding philosophy, and if you are adopting rats to people who don't have a lot of rat experience, they are safer with you holding on to them longer. I adopted two girls to a long term rat owner who used to breed rats herself. She's skilled and experienced with pups. I think they got a great home. The two boys I adopted out at about 5 weeks went to fellow forum members, both with lots of rat experience and friends for the boys to play with when they got there.... they are doing very well and I'm glad to say bringing their new owners lots of joy. 

This leaves Spot. My daughter is working with him and he's become quite a little gentleman. We took him to the store today and he enjoyed the trip out. He comes when called and he's just a super little fellow...

Now here's the rub... Spot should be training with his forever family not us and we should be focusing on Bunny and Lucky. They should have been out with us last night. Instead, poor old Misty has got the job of raising two girls. I mean Bunny is hardly more than a pup herself. By splitting my focus, I'm not giving any of our rats the attention they deserve.

Now remember, I'm not a rat breeder. I never intended to adopt a pregnant rat, but Bunny is freakishly thin and she had a small litter and both her breeder and I didn't see she was almost two weeks pregnant... We adopted a rat that was older than we usually do, and we are paying for it. That said, we are doing the best we can and so far, we have all great pups to show for our efforts.

Our philosophies are somewhat different, I like to work with rats that have a little bit of an edge to them, they are going to do dangerous things and they need to be just a little bit street smart and a little less docile. They have to make decisions independently but they can't panic. They need to be able to form strong bonds, but they need to be outgoing too. On the other hand, you as a breeder, might not be thrilled by a trainer who likes to train pups as young as I do, or seeing your babies going to dangerous places. We look at the world differently.

By pre-socialized, I mean rats that aren't afraid of people and are happy to be handled, naturally they are weaned and to some extent independent and/or dependent on people. They are ready to learn their forever names, or already know them and ready for serious training. They are ready to form their forever bonds with their new human and rat families pretty much the moment they get to their new homes. 

From a breeder's perspective nature is a priority... and as a trainer I need rats to train that are in the right ballpark. I'm not looking for the exact same qualities you are, but pretty close. Sometimes our rats will lay on their backs and curl their feet. They usually do for my daughter, but they rarely do it for me. Mostly they have something more important to do. Usually, I will pick the most outgoing and active rat from a breeder's litter. But I then have a long way to take it to a shoulder rat. And when I screw up I kill a rat, so for me, nurture and training are serous business. 

Some folks are fast to dismiss many rats as inferior or unsuitable. I don't think they are right. Yes, certain rats might be easier to work with, but that's a long way from "junk your rat and start over". 

When you are talking to a group of breeders, like I do with fish breeders, we all are pretty much on the same page, not that we always agree. A friend once came over and looked at an aquarium and complimented me on a few magnificent fish, he then tried to take one of my nets and cull everything else for my own good. And thereby wiping out most of my precious gene pool. Like I said, we don't always agree, but we speak the same language... but I don't know if many of the young people here get it. Yes, many would be better off with rats from long established lines maintained by breeders with experience, but most have pet shop or feeder rats. And with some work and socialization those rats are mostly going to be fine too... Some are going to be shy... some will be skittish... a few might be a little bit on the aggressive side and a few will be outright monsters. But even most of the monsters can be fixed with work. 

So no doubt you have some great pups coming up and I've got one special boy to share and there are a relatively few breeders around the continent that produce a relatively small number of special rats. My own breeder generally doesn't sell rats except to a few friends. And that leaves everyone else out there at pet shops, feeder bins, BYBs, or rescues. Now I'd prefer to say those rats are OK and can still be great with love and proper socialization. You might say there are better rats somewhere for people to start out with... both messages are good and don't necessarily have to contradict each other. 

I've had to field messages that started out.. "Should I get rid of my rats and start over?" For the most part I helped these people fix their rats, but if they read a thread on how defective their rats are, you know exactly what they would do. They might just dump their rats at a rescue, or worse and find a breeder for another try. And by the way, most of these people knew nothing about rats and they were a large part of why their rats were screwed up in the first place. Three months later, no doubt, they would be starting over again, looking for a better breeder.

You work on breeding better rats, I train shoulder rats and try and fix other people's screwed up rats... Your tools are genetics; mine is immersion. I respect what you do, so please consider what I do too. Nature is more important to you and nurture is more important to me... When someone tells someone that their rat is junk, it makes my job a lot harder. I'm not saying that you ever did it... but some people tend to build on the valid points about nature that are well made and in context, in a way that undermines those of us who have a lot of rats to fix with nurture.

Imagine if someone heard about the fox study and decided his rats were feral foxes and just dumped them. Do we know it hasn't already happened? I know that's not what you want and I know you are addressing me and you know I won't dump my rats.... but there's someone with a problem rat and now he has a scientifically validated solution to his problem. 

If everyone had top quality breeder rats, it would be easier for me, I could concentrate on shoulder rats and help make great rats awesome. I'd actually prefer that... I'm working with a strain of exceptional rats now myself... But as long as there are pet shops, feeder bins, BYB's and shabby rescues and people who know nothing about their new pet rats.... I'm going to be responding to threads that start with..."HELP, BITING RAT!!" 

Nature vs nurture, both are important, it's a great debate and there are different perspectives that are equally right... You know that someone can screw up your best rats through neglect or abuse and I know that most rats can be improved through socialization and training. So just about every rat can become someone's someone special.


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## Rat Daddy

Actually I hadn't intended to take this thread off topic. We adopted Max at two weeks old because she was in a feeder bin, and yes she turned out alright... She had a peculiar personality, but I can't blame that on any one thing, she survived some pretty traumatic injuries and developed mammary tumors pretty young. Her's wasn't an easy life... But it was far better than being fed to a snake at two weeks old.

When you adopt a rat pup very young, you have to be willing to be the rats mom and often it's litter mate. This is a huge commitment. With Max I slept on an inflatable bed with her for the first several weeks of her life and I adjusted my work schedule to be home most of the time. When I wasn't with her my daughter was, and that's not to mention the around the clock eyedropper feedings. At three to four weeks old, you don't need to eyedropper feed, but you are committed to similar around the clock care. Your mom and playmate and teacher all rolled up into one. You really can't pawn off rat rearing onto one of your other rats. Or in my current case, where Misty is doing her best, I really shouldn't be.

When you adopt a rat that's older... say closer to 10 weeks old, they are more ready to survive intros, so you can get more help from your other rats. And they hopefully have some mom and sibling experience under their belts.... that's assuming they had a good mom and a breeder to help pre-socialize them for you.

So, I have a good breeder now... but like almost everyone else I started out in the pet shop feeder bin. And our most amazing rat actually came from there and was the product of hand raising as an only rat. The truth is that people like Moonkissed is most likely losing money on her breeding hobby. It costs her money to adopt a rat to someone else. It's a no profit and to some degree thankless job, especially when unthinking people go and kill the precious babies she raises. So in all reality 99% of rats come from bad places and the longer they stay there the better the odds are that they are getting more neglected, abused and screwed up... and often the closer they get to the fangs of a reptile.

So... yes, if you are dealing with a reputable breeder, they will tell you when your rats are ready, but when you have to deal with the 'bad' places sometimes you have to adjust your plans. If you adopt an older rat, you may have to go through more work socializing it and undoing the damage caused by it's mistreatment, if you adopt a young pup, you are going to have to do a lot of work hand raising it. 

But mostly the world doesn't give you many options... the heart wants what the heart wants. You find a particular rat and you fall in love with it... it maybe younger or older and you have to do what you have to do. When we found Max, my daughter fell in love instantly, but I convinced her to leave Max in the bin... the store didn't hold feeder rats for anyone. When we got home, my daughter kept asking me if I thought Max had been eaten yet... I didn't want to raise a 2 week old rat pup, but I love my daughter... So the next day there we were at the store with a new pup and a couple travel packets of KMR.

In most cases for rats, there are the way things should be and the way things really are... There are the right choices, we rarely get to make and the best options we usually have to settle for.


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## moonkissed

> I've had to field messages that started out.. "Should I get rid of my rats and start over?" For the most part I helped these people fix their rats, but if they read a thread on how defective their rats are, you know exactly what they would do. They might just dump their rats at a rescue, or worse and find a breeder for another try. And by the way, most of these people knew nothing about rats and they were a large part of why their rats were screwed up in the first place. Three months later, no doubt, they would be starting over again, looking for a better breeder.
> 
> You work on breeding better rats, I train shoulder rats and try and fix other people's screwed up rats... Your tools are genetics; mine is immersion. I respect what you do, so please consider what I do too. Nature is more important to you and nurture is more important to me... When someone tells someone that their rat is junk, it makes my job a lot harder. I'm not saying that you ever did it... but some people tend to build on the valid points about nature that are well made and in context, in a way that undermines those of us who have a lot of rats to fix with nurture.


I am not sure where you got the idea that I am against nurture or training. I am no anti either of those. I do believe nurture has its place. I also train my rats- most of them will all come when called, do some tricks, etc... My itty bitty babies come when called even. When it is time to put them away from free range time I just go in and call babies and they come. I also am very involved in dog training & do some training with my cats. One of my dogs is so well trained she can be completely off leash and has a perfect recall. I have some fun videos of her doing perfect recall running straight to me & sitting in front of me. And the leave it challenge! I trained her all myself. My other dog came from a not great situation, is highly reactive and needs so much work lol I just got him afew months ago and he is coming along amazingly. 

I also do own some problem rats and I have posted about my one girls training process.

I've also posted a bunch on how I have worked very hard with rescue cats, I used to foster as well. 

I do not think they are two different sides or the opposite at all. 

My issue... is when it feels like you are encouraging people to do what I feel are harmful things or not good for rats. There is a difference IMO between say going to a pet store and seeing a 3-4 week old baby alone in a tank and deciding to take it home VS trying on purpose to find a baby that age for your own reasons. 

It reminds me of the very irritating people who say they have to let their cats have a litter of kittens because they wanna raise babies! I wanna slap them. It is so selfish and wrong. If they want to raise babies- go volunteer and foster kittens who need help. Same thing with lone rats- no you shouldn't keep a lone rat but if you are determined to do so go find a rescue rat who can't be kept with others.

The difference is that people are lazy and selfish and dont wanna wait to find that they want it now. But the animals suffer. 


I do not think any animal is junk. I do think there are some that can't be helped. But for the most part animals just need love and patience. I think alot of people are junk. For ever person you helped there are probably 100 that do not have the patience or love and will give up because they don't want to put in that amount of effort. 

And ideally they shouldn't have to. There is a difference between trying to rescue and help and animal and just wanting a lovely pet and ending up with a mess of work. 

I think we can all agree that it would be amazing if we never saw another thread where someone needed help with their afraid aggressive rat. It bothers me that people make it seem like a normal thing. It hurts the image of rats as a whole. Rats are amazing smart sweet friendly rats. The shy, biting, fearful rats are not normal and shouldn't represent the pet rat


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## Gribouilli

Rat Daddy- when you say: "I have a good breeder now...", are you referring to the breeder who recently sold you a 5 week pregnant rat?


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## moonkissed

> So, I have a good breeder now... but like almost everyone else I started out in the pet shop feeder bin. And our most amazing rat actually came from there and was the product of hand raising as an only rat. The truth is that people like Moonkissed is most likely losing money on her breeding hobby. It costs her money to adopt a rat to someone else. It's a no profit and to some degree thankless job, especially when unthinking people go and kill the precious babies she raises. So in all reality 99% of rats come from bad places and the longer they stay there the better the odds are that they are getting more neglected, abused and screwed up... and often the closer they get to the fangs of a reptile.


Oh definitely I do not make money. I do not think any responsible breeder does it to try and make money. Money is not the reason at all on why I wanted to breed. I want to help improve rats. Working on better health and temperament and as well amazing varieties. 

The amount of food I go through in a month is shocking, and it goes up so much when I have a single litter of babies. Double that for each litter and your head would explode. How can something so little eat so much? lol Cages galore, bedding and accessories too, plus vet bills unending. And so much time. Playing with rats daily and I pretty much feel I just clean cages nonstop lol.

I couldn't express this more! People think ooo babies it is fun... and yes babies are adorable but it mostly is just work lol

But wait why are unthinking people killing the babies I raise? I only sell as pets. And while I cannever be 100% perfect on judging people I have a good process of choosing who I sell too and turn people away often.

All animals have to eat. (I do not own any nonfluffy pets for the record) But how many of us are vegan? Are we throwing a fit over the animals used in our other pets food? And while many feeder animals may not have a good life, many others will. But 100% for sure the meat we got from the supermarket- those animals did not have a good life. 

And if we want to see change we gotta make it. We are not helpless. We can speak with our money. Change can and does happen. There are lots of laws that have changed regarding animal cruelty, other countries have even gone farther. Many pet stores do not sell kittens and puppies anymore. The whole one person doesn't matter thing is nonsense. And you do not have to be one person, spread the word! Join all the others against it and someone else we see and listen and join too. And a difference can be made!




> In most cases for rats, there are the way things should be and the way things really are... There are the right choices, we rarely get to make and the best options we usually have to settle for.


I am not saying it is easy. I am actually super emotional and sensitive. I am also bipolar, which pretty much means my emotions drive me. I love animals. I have spent most of my life dedicated to them. If I had tons of money like all of it would go to helping animals. I never want to see an animal suffer.

But... I think being responsible is more important. Making the right choices are not always easy but step back, walk away & think it out. Sometimes that doesn't work  If I only thought with my heart, me & all the million pets I took in would starve to death in a week because I couldn't afford feeding them all!

But there are times I have thought with my heart too, so I do get it. I got my first guinea pig because a woman I knew had rescued him from a bad pet shop that kept a ton of pigs all in a very very small cage & they fought. My guy was beaten up badly and his ears are full of holes from being chewed on. Well the woman was an awful flipper where she would rescue get sick of them and rehome them. She couldn't find him a home so was going to take him back to that same store! i couldn't let that happen. So I took him in knowing nothing about guinea pigs. I had to get him a friend & after looking all over for rescues or even people selling them there was nada in my small town. I went to a different pet store but it was still a pet store. 

I do have rats I bought from a pet shop. 


Everyone has to make their own choices. But I don't think we should pretend they are anything other then what they are. I'd just wish that people thought with their hearts on a bigger picture!


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## Modernstar

I got two of my rats around 4 weeks, and they've grown up pretty well rounded and socially healthy. No matter the age, you're not going to "ruin" your rat by adopting them earlier or later. Half of their personality is nature and half is nurture.  

If they're at a shelther they're most likely already separated from their mom. Or, as someone else noted, stressed out and should be taken to a loving home ASAP.


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## Rat Daddy

I'ts kind of funny how people who care can debate and conflict over a problem, while the people who are the problem really don't care. 

As a former idealist, I've tossed in my towel in the fight to fix the world. I might help a folks help a few rats. I'm not ever going to stop car companies from building crap cars or get people to do proper auto maintenance, but I might pick up someone stranded on the side of a dark lonely highway and take them to safety.

I kind of concentrate the one person I helped and don't worry about the 100 that aren't interested in listening. I think a lone rat is a bad thing, but it can still be better than being fed to a snake.... Some folks might say it's a glass half full vs. half empty... but we both know the glass is nowhere near half full. 

If someone can't have two rats, you could well argue they shouldn't have the first one... or you could encourage the human to spend more time with their rat doing fun out of cage activities. Likely the second answer is the less right, but it might improve the life of a poor lonely rat. 

Rat mills and many pet shops really turn my stomach... But, if a few friendly rats get great forever homes out of the tragedy, in my book it's a win. No, it's not a big win, but someone got a loving pet and a rat got a second or rather first chance... and I'll take it.

Now I understand there are still idealists out there. I love their enthusiasm and their energy... Someone should be fighting the big fights and taking on the evil empire while I rescue a few casualties and patch up a few wounded. So yes, I would help someone raise a 3 week old rat... even to the point of suggesting they should rescue it from a feeder bin or rescue where it might be mistreated. If I were a breeder with a waiting list and a decent facility, I would certainly not adopt out 3 week old rats to average first time rat owners. 

Generally, I appreciate when people make the right suggestions about the right things to do... Someone should install a guard rail on the dangerous curve, while someone else tends to the latest crash victims... But installing the guard rail shouldn't get in the way of rescuing the victims of the current crash. 

So, yes when a good breeder is involved and a good mother rat is involved rats can and should be left with their moms longer... when a pup is in a dangerous or precarious situation someone should take immediate action if they can and know what they are doing. We could argue all day long if Max would have been better off with her mom instead of being hand raised by us... Max had a one off personality, and it might have been better given a real mom for at least another week and maybe more... On the other hand, if we didn't adopt her when we did, she would have been snake food and the point is moot... there would have been no Max.

I've gotten into a few debates with people I believe to have a genuine love for rats, like I do. I regret it, because I'd rather be upset with the people who don't care about their rats and neglect and mistreat them on purpose.

There's a place for advocating better breeder ethics and the's a place for hand feeding a tiny feeder bin baby...

This was Max when we adopted her at 28g








And this was her at 6 weeks old...








She very well might have been better off with her mom, but she did alright... 

I never meant to imply that you were ever wrong.. just that I don't believe I was either.

And for you true idealists... there never should have been a feeder bin and Max should never have been in it.... That was wrong in my opinion... That's a battle I can't win... but Max was one I did.


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