# Genetics, and genetic code, of mink rats



## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Can someone explain these to me?

I wasn't breeding for mink, they supposedly popped up in one of my hairless _(what I -was- breeding for, which is why colour wasn't a main concern)_ litters_ (several people have suggested that the babies are mink)_, and I'd like to understand it better, so that I can decide on a genetic level, whether or not the pups are mink, or something else.

What combination of genes create mink? Are there recessives involved? Dilutions?
What genes can affect the shade of mink?

I am very well versed in mouse genetics, so I can take a pretty intense explanation.
No baby talk needed here. 


EDIT: I'd also like to note that, that the history of these rats is as follows

Amber berkshire female X Hairless (presumed black) male (carrying RED)

Black marked Female X Black male (both carrying RED)

Litter containing light brown 'mink', amber, hairless, black, marked black, and marked light brown 'mink'


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

Two copies of the mink gene are needed to make a mink rat. Mink + black + RED make a lighter colour called Havana. Amber is agouti + pink eye dilution. Beige is black + RED.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Ooooh my gosh that makes perfect sense now! 

Maybe that's what I've got. Havana. The babies are much lighter than the photos of mink that I have seen before, and I was wondering if the RED had an influence on that. 

Very good. Thanks so much for that explanation!

So potentially it's possible to have both beige, and amber babies in these litters. I guess I'll have to let them grow up to be able to tell the difference. They look pretty much the same as babies.


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## Nekopan (Mar 18, 2010)

Amber, beige, and fawn can be hard to tell apart. It really just depends on if they're agouti, and whether it's a pink or RED.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Gotcha. ;D


I have RED, PED, and black eyes in these litters. 
Craziness, I tell you! Craziness!


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## Legends Of Rock Rattery (Oct 18, 2010)

Most of the rats I have are from a mink line and I love them. They throw a rainbow of kitts every time. Ive gotten blue beige,a few shades of dove,platinum,a few shades of mink,russian blue,a few shades of blue,black. and a few others.

I had a hairless mink pop up in a siamese breeding I just did. didnt expect that at all. I knew the kitts dad had mink far back in his pedigree but didnt expect it to show up in any new litters. Pleasant supprise!

anyway here is a pie O Kitts from 2 of my mink breedings


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Mine look a lot like those critters there! ;D
I love those cute little white feets!

Here's a photo of them (they're a few weeks older now, but I'm too lazy to get new photos! )










I love getting rainbows of colour. 
I'm so good with mouse genetics, that nothing surprises me any more when I breed mice. I can predict every single baby at about 90% accuracy.

Rats are still throwing me some oddballs since I'm not nearly as experienced with them. It's exciting! Lol!
On top of that, colour was not an issue with my breeding plans since I was aiming for hairless. 
I did get a clump of hairless bubs, too. Great success. ;D


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## Legends Of Rock Rattery (Oct 18, 2010)

I can predict every baby in every litter except the mink ones. Getting there though.
http://www.hawthorn.org.uk/articles/genetics.html
Article on Mink rats

http://legendsofrockrattery.weebly.com/ratteries-and-other-links.html
On my links page I have a bunch of info on genetics


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

The babies you have in the litter are mink. Although maybe you should read the rules of this forum, no talking about intentional breeding... some members really don't like it. And rightfully so, they witness first hand the amount of rats already needing homes. 

I find beige and fawn babies quite easy to tell apart. The beige are always lighter, they almost have a bluey tinge to them. The fawn are brighter (like your bub pictured, I know its not beige)


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes. Several people mentioned beige, but I thought they were much too light.

Side-note, it's strange that 'Ratforum.com' doesn't allow talk about intentional breeding. Especially when it's the first forum to come up in a search for rat forums. Maybe the name should be changed to 'RescueRatForum.com' or something. 

But that's off topic, and I don't want to start an argument, or long debate in my thread that is about genetics. 
If someone is looking for a debate, though, Pms are free! 

Back on topic, thanks for all of your input. I appreciate it greatly.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I thought the same thing when I joined, but really when you think about it.. all the info is available on the web if you search for it and your mentor or which ever breeder you got the rats from could go through it with you. I think if threads were made about breeding it may encourage/enable the wrong kind of people to breed. People who generally have a passion for genetics would of studied that all first before they bred, or discussed with the rats original breeder that particular line in depth.. so they have an understanding of what they are doing. Its a really touchy subject, theres a huge over population issue... yet the species really needs to be improved. So I can totally understand people's objection to breeding, if the rats produced are not an improvement to the species (not just 'starting somewhere')... then whats the point? 

Do you have a website? I love checking them kind of things out... you have very adorable babies!


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

That's a respectable way of putting it. 

I don't have a website for two main reasons. 
1) Too much work keeping it up to date!
2) I prefer not to advertise my animals too widely. I prefer selling and trading with people who I know, or who someone I know knows, because this keeps my animals in good hands, where I can check on them if I need to ;D

I am more interested in mice. Though, I do own rats, Spiny mice, and ASFs.
ASFs are my second most populous critter. I'm working on improving temperment and colours in them. Temperment is a HUGE deal with them, because they are only a few generations out of the wild, and are known for being ABSOLUTELY ferocious. Mine, are completely tame and handleable. ;D

I might post some photos in the 'other pet' section for curious peoples. 8)
I also have a short tailed opossum, I'm sure that'll be interesting. 


I appreciate your comment. A few people really bristled me up with some . . . less that respectful comments towards me, only in my first post. You've really put it across in a better way.
I'd like to note though, that the rules section is very difficult to read through. Mostly because the 'breeder' rules aren't really in the rules section, and you really have to dig around to get the full scoop. Someone should edit the rules post, and add some information about it in there, to make it easy to access.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Yeah I know first hand how much of a pain websites can be to maintain 

You should defiantly post pictures of your other critters, I'd for one love to see them! I have always thought African Soft furs were beautiful but I had read too much about them having poor temperaments.. along with chewing/neurotic behaviors to actually get some. I'm glad theres breeders working to improve on that! Will be interesting for sure to see how domesticated they will become as a species - do you find them more rat like or mouse like in their personalities? 
Also what sort of colors are available? I take it their genetics work totally different than rats? 
(Hey the rules don't say anything about talking about breeding ASF's! )

I had to 'google' Spiny Mice, they look quite a bit like ASF's... what are the main visual/size/temperament differences between them and the ASF's?


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

My ASFs have come a loooong way!
I love to scoop them up, and bury my nose in their fur and just rub against them like that. They really love that! Sometimes, a hand can look threatening to them, so holding them, and bringing them up to your face is a good alternative. Some of my boys will hold still long enough to get cheek rubs and ear rubs, and they'll sometimes even start rolling to the side because they're just so into it, that they almost fall over! 
Their personalities are more mouse like, but once you hold one, you'll notice they're actually almost like. . . a timid cat maybe? They're very slow moving, each step is taken very carefully and they like to feel around where they're going before they go, or before they get comfortable with their surroundings. They have a natural reaction to JUMP when they get mad at you (which is better than bitting, I must say) and they just randomly fling themselves into the air, and often do little flips before hitting the ground. LOL.
Good thing my mouse room is carpeted.
Colours available are Piebald (standard brown and white spotted), Head spot (has three stripes on the face, one over each eye, and one in the middle of the head), Agouti (same as mice and rats), Cinnamon (same as mice and rats), Argente (pink eyed agouti), Ruby eyed agouti (slightly grayed agouti, with blue undercoat), Platinum (solid white with black ears and eyes), High white or Black eyed white, Pink eyed white (not albino), Ruby eyed white (not albino), and every shade of agouti you can imagine, lol!

Spiny mice are great. They really love being handled. They'll climb into my hand and go straight up my arm if I put my hand in their cage! They have a very similar look in their shape to ASFs, but are very different otherwise. 
For instance, you can't hold them, or even steady them by their tails, because they have a defense mechanism, where if their tail gets pulled, it falls right off. Unfortunately, it's very easy to do, and it's very painful for the spiny mouse. :/
They're very sweet, and not nippy at all from my experience (with three generations now) and they give birth to babies with open eyes, and full coats of fur! 
They have 1-6 babies in a litter, with an average being 1-3.
They also have spines on their backs, a lot like hedgehogs. But they're so small, they they really don't hurt at all, and petting a Spiny mouse is no trouble at all! ;D


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## catsandscales (Oct 21, 2010)

I decided to glance through this thread out of boredom and I have been introduced to a whole new world! =O Spiny mice? African Soft Furred Rats? Holy cow! And I love genetics... I don't have time or energy to do a breeding program, but it's still amazing.

Too bad ASFs are illegal in CA... they are fascinating.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Oh! Forgot to mention that ASFs can be housed together with Fancy mice, or with Spiny mice, but NOT with both. The Spiny mice and Fancy mice tear one another up. :-\

I also think they cannot be housed with rats, because the rats attack them.

I believe, they can be housed with degus too, and so can fancy mice if introduced very carefully.

I've housed gerbils and fancies together before, and even had gerbils fostered on a mouse mother before! ;D


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

once upon a time, a scummy pet store here decided they wanted to start breeding and selling asfs, but they quickly stopped that after realizing they don't make the best pets because they've not been domesticated for very long at all. i had a wee boy for a couple of days, before i was aware of the huge difference between them and standard norway rats.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I wouldn't intro mice or natal rats to degu's just for the size difference. I don't think they would be happy together, different environment, different diet, different species communication, and the danger of a degu kicking a smaller rodent by mistake? Not worth it.

I have my rescue natal girl in with 3 mice...I was told its best to have opposite sexes but Mini doesn't care Her Mice are all girls. 

She's handleable but that's just a fluke, and only by me. If I hand her to someone else, she's terrified and skitty and fights to get away (just struggling), if I put out my hand she hops on it and instantly calms.

She was younger here










Here she is all grown up 









As for mink...unless you are breeding specifically for mink, it can really muddy up a line. The big breeders I know of try to avoid introducing mink to their lines because it can ruin colour lines and be incredibly difficult to get out of again.

Rainbow litters are also not good (unless you are a rescuer, which makes them appealing), but as a breeder that means you have too many genes in the mix, and you should be limiting them as much as you can to keep your line pure.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Aww, what a cute little ASF girlie! ;D

The mink popped up as a fluke, colour in these litters wasn't calculated, because the goal was hairless. 
Interestingly enough, all but one of the hairless babies turned out PEW. The other turned out black.

Jaguar - Yes. Typically it's the 'scummy' stores that sell ASFs because they see that they are the same cost of raising as mice, but sell for twice the amount of money, or more. :-[
Mine are all pets, have have been pets for at least three generations, probably more than that! So they're all very used to being handled and played with and carried around. The boys especially love cheek rubs! ;D


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