# What Are the Chances?



## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm not the most popular member here but I really would like some advice. My current situation is with 2 young girls that I got at a pet store (they are sisters). I've seen the litter grow up for day 1 because the pet store breeds their own. 

I didn't know until after I bought the first girl, that people are supposed to separate the babies at 5 weeks. So, when the pet store employee told me the babies were 20 weeks old, I didn't think anything of it. Well, since perusing this forum, I learned the truth of the matter. Well, my girls were in with their brothers & another bigger male that was in there. He was new, I had never seen him before. Given the time frame, & the fact that they were in with their brothers & a foreign male. What are the chances that one of them is pregnant? IF they are, what the odds of them being healthy if was inbreeding with their brothers? (I'm worried about their possible health the most.) 

I went back to today to get the sister to the rat I bought at first, & I asked him if my girls were pregnant would the pet store take back the babies & sell them as pets. (Since it was the pet stores ignorance.) He said, yes, that they often take litters from people & sell them for them. So, I'm safe if I can't find quality homes for them all. 

Now, none are FOR SURE pregnant at the moment, but I just wanted to know the chances. Should I save up money to take them to the vet to see if they are pregnant, or would that be a waste, should I just wait & see?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

you need to buy a digital scale (I use a postal scale myself), that weighs in grams.

Weigh each girl every day at the same time (and just once a day) and record their weights. This is how you will know if either are pregnant, potentially pregnant, etc. We will help you decipher the pattern of the weight gain.

THIS teeny little baby came to me pregnant...


















VERY likely they are pregnant. Rats tolerate inbreeding very well so don't worry too much about that.


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

Thank you for your help. I'll try to find a scale.. though I'm not sure where to get one. What type of store should I look in? 

In the mean time, should I just be keeping an eye on their stomachs? 

I was worried that it was very likely.. :-\ 

I gave the pet store a stern talking to, however. About how they MUST separate the babies at 5 weeks or else there will be more inbreeding. Plus, they shouldn't be giving away pet rats that might be pregnant to perhaps beginner owners or impulsive buyers. It's just not ethical. I, fortunately, have many cages/tanks, so I can handle a pregnancy at the moment, even if I wasn't prepared for it yet.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

we have Business Depot/Staples in Canada, I am not sure what you have in the US? That is where I got my scale from.


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

We do, indeed, have Staples here. I haven't been in one in ages though! I'll give it a look.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

http://www.staples.com/Pelouze-2-lb.-Mechanical-Postal-Scale/product_188599?cmArea=SEARCH

Here's a cheap postal scale for a little over 22USD. I don't know if your Staples will have it in-store, but you can call and ask before you go. I can't imagine you'd need one that weighs for over 2 lbs.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It sounds like the one I have.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Walmart, target, and stop and shop have them too. I have a nice digital one from walmart.


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

I don't have money at the moment for a scale. I already have to pay my mother back for buying me a proper tank top & for buying Bluebell for me. (She was 20 bucks because she was Blue.) 

I'm not sure if Daffodil is pregnant. She seems skinny. Although she could be recently preggos. Bluebell on the other hand has a pretty hard stomach that protrudes just the slightest bit. I'll post some pictures today if I can get some help taking a pic of her stomach, she's a squirmer.


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

Here is a picture of Bluebell, the suspected preggo. It's not the best picture because she's kinda sitting on her butt in my hand instead of standing, but its the best I could do because she's still nervous with me. What are you guy's opinions on her belly? I can see she has visible nipples as well.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Unless she just ate mass quantities of food, I'd say she looks pregnant. She even has the 'turtle belly' look which seems to be popular with smaller animals when pregnant, also common on engorged puppies.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ummm no offense but how are you going to afford to raise this litter? The extra wire cages, the food these little growing machines will eat, etc...its expensive!


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

lilspaz68 said:


> Ummm no offense but how are you going to afford to raise this litter? The extra wire cages, the food these little growing machines will eat, etc...its expensive!


Wire cages? I have a lot of tanks I was planning to use. We usually get plenty of food for my rats since I have 5 now & have 2 mice. We are used to buying lots of food. I won't be keeping the babies for very long. If people express interest in adopting them, then thats so great, but ultimately, I'll be giving them back to the pet store that sold me the pregnant baby. So you think she's preggo?


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Tanks are not appropriate cages for rats. There is a sticky in the housing section that explains why.

Lilspaz has a legitimate concern. So much can go wrong with pregnancies, so if one can't afford a ten-twenty dollar scale, what will happen if the rat needs a C-section, a shot of oxytocin, etc?

Also, just so you know, Daffodil is black not blue. It also looks like she has a blaze, so she might be high white and at risk of having babies with MC 

As to returning them to the store, they very well may be sold as feeders, regardless of what the store is telling you. They also sell to just anyone, it could be a great home, but it could also be a home that neglects or abuses them. Also, since the store does not seperate by sex, these poor babies may end up being bred way too young, which is very dangerous.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

smesyna said:


> Tanks are not appropriate cages for rats. There is a sticky in the housing section that explains why.


If I'm thinking of the sticky you're talking about, it actually says glass aquariums are good for new mothers...


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

As a temp home, they are not to be used after the babies start walking. So within 3 weeks they become useless.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

I understand that. I've talked to Monroe and that's all they'd be used for. She has other cages, but can't use them because of the bar spacing.

I used an aquarium as temp homing for one rat. I cleaned it twice a week, spot cleaned two or three times a day, wiped down the inside twice a day, was very careful about removing uneaten food, and had a fan circulating air. I think as long as it's done right, it works.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Even with the best care it's just not good enough. Rats are climbers, denying them that is cruel. Also tanks need to be at least 30 gallons to be a good enough size anyway.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

It was a 55 gallon tank, with hammocks hanging from the wire lid, suction-cup shelves, and a ladder to get to the first floor. It was a temporary home while I saved up enough cash for a cage. I'm not saying it's the best, but it doesn't seem out of the question as a temporary home for an adolescent in QT, a new mommy, or a medical emergency. That sticky doesn't explain why aquariums aren't appropriate for rats, it just gives pros and cons of both wire cages and glass aquariums.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

tanks are not appropriate long term, but large/wide aquariums with mesh lids are acceptable as nursing cages if you have nothing else. it will need cleaned out multiple times a day and that can be disturbing to mom and new babies. they would need to be moved into something much larger once they were big enough to move around.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

AND if you have ever raised a litter...baby poop REEKS...smelly stinky baby poops. 

I don't use tanks for my rescue moms and their litters, I use small cages, with a deep base that the wire part sits on top of, and narrow spacing.
Tanks do not have enough air flow and I really don't recommend them even as temp cages. I would prefer a bin cage for an expectant mom but Monroe cannot afford a scale, much less a bin and the fixing's to make a proper cage. Plus what if there is issues with the pregnancy (mom reabsorbs but not properly and that means she has a belly full of dead babies that are poisoning her), or if she doesn't have enough milk production, you would need a foster mom (more expense) and likely her litter of pups as well, or you would be handfeeding, buying special syringes, a scale (yet again!) to make sure they are gaining, expensive soy milk formula, etc. What if a pup gets stuck in the birth canal, she dies while Monroe rings her hands? Nice "save". Monroe should NOT have adopted these girls if he/she couldn't afford vet care, much less anything else.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sorry "bought". :


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

while i won't disagree... let's not make this personal. stick to the topic, please.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

I feel like offering advice instead of attacking her financial situation and whether or not she did the right thing, would be more productive. Maybe tell her what to do, how to prepare, instead of just going on about how she's not going to be able to do anything right?

As I said before, I've talked to Monroe and I offered to foster however many she needed me to take, at whatever point in their lives. I'm looking to adopt three boys from her if she has a litter. So there's a little head start.

Monroe came to this forum expecting advice because she DOES want to do the best she can, but all she's getting is people telling her that she won't be able to do it and she's always wrong. I'm not looking for an argument. I agree with you when you're saying that it's not a good situation, and that maybe there hasn't been enough preparation, etc. But getting discouraged and winging it is more dangerous than doing the best you can, don't you think?


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Advice has been given in the multiple threads about these pregnant rats. Our advice is limited though, by her financial situation. Normally we suggest cheap things like bin cages, etc. But even that is out. Pointing out what is going to be an issue isn't an attack. It is important to know. Knowing ahead of time that she doesn't have the money for an emergency that could come up with birthing, she could consider rehoming, borrowing money, selling things, etc.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

I understand all of that. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be discussed, but the way it's being brought up might not be very productive. I don't know. I guess I'm just thinking that it seems as though a few people are ganging up on her. If only because they're so worried about the complications of the situation. It seems to be getting more personal, instead of just neutral advice. I'm not sure if I explained that right... Do you know what I mean?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

we understand where you're coming from. but your friend monroe here also admitting to wanting to intentionally breed these females in her current financial situation, which is what crossed the line for many users. do you understand now why the whole "no breeding talk" rule is in place? many people are very opinionated about it, and it is a touchy subject that usually ends in an argument and the thread needing locked. it is understandable that sometimes we as human beings will struggle with money, time, and resources. we've all gone through it at one point or another. that's not the issue. the issue is that she, in her current situation, wants to bring more rats into the world from parents with unknown genetic lineage, potentially setting up for disaster... especially without the emergency funds. everyone is trying to be realistic, and just want what's best for the rats.


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## halfmoon (Mar 29, 2010)

I've seen arguments on here about intentional breeding. I know _exactly_ how passionate the users on here are about not intentionally breeding. I think that posting about intentionally breeding on this forum was a mistake on her part. The emotion is sort of making the advice come off harsher than it's meant. I know what everyone is saying, and I'm I think we're all essentially on the same side.


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## Monroe (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm not gonna post here anymore. I'm obviously not welcome. 

I'll continue to log on to update halfmoon on the subject because she showed interest in helping me out personally. 

The moderators can close this thread if they wish since I'm not visiting/replying anymore after this.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

What is with all this back seat Moderating?

No one attacked, people gave constructive criticism, and unfortunately it often comes of harsh. 
Locking this.


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