# Biting!!



## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

So I'm spending the day in the bathtub here getting Hank and Dean used to me, but Hank bit me twice last night and once just now. Each time he's come up to my hand, sniffed me very calmly, and then but down hard. I shouted no sternly at him and now I've been holding him very close to me while wearing gardening gloves (he has not tried to bite the gloves). Is there something else I should be doing? How can I know when it's safe to take the gloves off, because otherwise he doesn't seem very aggressive. I need help! I've never dealt with a rat that bites before!


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Now whenever I try petting him with the gloves on he gets in a wrestling stance. Should I pin him with my hand to show I'm in charge? Help!


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't really know what to say however mumble got quite aggressive to me, I ignored him and he soon came around but I don't know if that was because he knew me etc, hope he calms soon 


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

He bit straight through my gloves now, can someone please tell me what the right thing to do here is? I just got these guys last night it I'm already fed up with Hank's behavior and I have no idea how to fix it. I don't want to have to just throw him in his cage and ignore him his whole life but I can't deal with constantly getting bitten.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

He hates the gloves. It's the gloves that are freaking him out. I know you don't want to get bit again, but losing the gloves may be the best way to calm him down. 

Also, don't let him sniff your fingers. Put a "flat hand" for him to sniff. It's very difficult for him to bite you if your hand is flat and your fingers are as far back as possible. Also, only allow him to sniff the palm of your hand. 

If you want to "pin him with your hand"...... I wouldn't do it, but that's up to you. I would think that would just freak him out more. 

If it were me.... I'd just work with one rat at a time. Less chance of getting bit. When it's a choice of taking more time to socialize and getting bit.... I always choose taking more time.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

I tried taking off the gloves right before I got bit but he started acting super aggressive (puffing his fur and clearly making motions to try to bite me) so I put them back on, figuring if he was gonna bite me anyway I might as well have the on. I've been letting him sniff my flat hand, how should I make it so he only sniffs my palm? I hold my hand flat but then he just bites the sides/tips of my fingers anyway.

For now I put him back in his cage, but do you suggest I work on him or Dean first? Dean is not aggressive, just very timid. I'd rather just deal with Hank tomorrow/another time but I don't want to make things worse by leaving him alone the rest of the day.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Actually Hank has been biting Jenzie before they even put on the gloves, they put them on for protection after. Also they said Dean is fine so there's no problem with him being there alongside Hank, but yes I'd focus on just Hank for now. As for the flipping, definitely don't do this. It'll only make an agitated and skittish rat even worse. Pinning a rat down that's nervous is just asking to be bitten believe me. Rats like it when you rub their bellies if they've accepted you and they see it as playing; for example my girls Storm and Ellie nibble my fingers when I flip them and rub their bellies. This is something you must work towards. As for the biting, that will take time to subside as he begins to trust you. You'll need to give him treats whenever he does something good such as licking you or bruxing/boggling (when you get to that stage). Just keep handling him over a period of time and he'll get used to it.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks Ratclaws. Yeah, he bit me twice last night and I didn't try gloves until today. Well for now I put Dean back in the cage and I have Hank out. I used the gloves to get him out of the cage but I'll try not to put them on again since they don't seem to help much anyway. For now I'm not gonna offer my hands for him to sniff but I'll try that again in a little while, when my wounds don't hurt as much.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

ratclaws said:


> Actually Hank has been biting Jenzie before they even put on the gloves, they put them on for protection after. Also they said Dean is fine so there's no problem with him being there alongside Hank, but yes I'd focus on just Hank for now. As for the flipping, definitely don't do this. It'll only make an agitated and skittish rat even worse. Pinning a rat down that's nervous is just asking to be bitten believe me. Rats like it when you rub their bellies if they've accepted you and they see it as playing; for example my girls Storm and Ellie nibble my fingers when I flip them and rub their bellies. This is something you must work towards. As for the biting, that will take time to subside as he begins to trust you. You'll need to give him treats whenever he does something good such as licking you or bruxing/boggling (when you get to that stage). Just keep handling him over a period of time and he'll get used to it.


I think we need to know under what circumstances he bit the first time. 

Was he out of the cage? Was he still in the cage? Was he being held and then suddenly bit or was he in the process of being picked up? 

Rats bite for different reasons. Sometimes new rats feel territorial and they'll defend what every cage they happen to be in at the time. Some will just be nervous and if you go to pick them up, it's like a reflex action. Some are just bitters. You can be holding them and then decide they don't like being held and go for your fingers. Some are just scared because they're in a new place and this stranger is trying to touch them. We also need to know if this rat has a "history" of being a bitter. 

I've always found that gloves are a "last resort". If at all possible, you need to figure out what caused the first bite and work from there.

I almost forgot. If you allow him to smell your hand. Open your hand as far as possible. Don't make it a "soft" open palm. Make it a "tight" as far as you can open it. Then have it flat in front of his face, like a wall. He can sniff that way, but he can't bite.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

The first two bites he was in his cage, I put my hand in (flat, palm up), he calmly sniffed me and then bit hard. He seems to want to do the same thing every time I offer my hand for him to sniff. This was after I'd had him and Dean out playing on the bed with me for two or three hours.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

With mumble I offered my fist, and actually let him bite me but if it was to hard I moved my hand after about a day or so he got bored and only now (because of hormones) is he getting nippy again, 


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Does Hank have a history of being a "biter"??


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Hm, yeah I have heard of doing the fist thing. I may try that but I'm not sure I'm brave enough to let him bite me lol. I thought if I ever got a nippy rat it wouldn't be too bad because I grew up with an aggressive cat in the house who bit all the time, but rat bites are so much worse!

Now he's sleeping next to my foot, looking so sweet that I feel bad for being mad at him. Just before he fell asleep he sat on my foot and started eye boggling, but again when I offered my hand he acted like he wanted to bite me (I know pulling back from a bite is not the best way to establish dominance, but again... It's scary!). So confusing.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Also I don't know his history. I got these boys from someone on Craigslist who needed to get rid of them because they were moving to an apartment with no animals allowed. Obviously I asked about temperament but someone trying to get rid of rats is probably not gonna be super up front about them biting a lot if that's the case.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Jenzie said:


> Hm, yeah I have heard of doing the fist thing. I may try that but I'm not sure I'm brave enough to let him bite me lol. I thought if I ever got a nippy rat it wouldn't be too bad because I grew up with an aggressive cat in the house who bit all the time, but rat bites are so much worse!
> 
> Now he's sleeping next to my foot, looking so sweet that I feel bad for being mad at him. Just before he fell asleep he sat on my foot and started eye boggling, but again when I offered my hand he acted like he wanted to bite me (I know pulling back from a bite is not the best way to establish dominance, but again... It's scary!). So confusing.
> 
> ...


I was scared at first because mumble and blue were my first rats and I didn't know how hard he could bite, but if you know he's sniffing your fist mentally prepare yourself for a bite and then it's not such a shock, I worked great for me, blue started being nippy and it took my less then a day for him to get fed up  


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

My guy started being a "cage biter". He'd bite if he was in his cage. He got over it, but it took about 3 weeks of working with him. He didn't start out as a cage biter. He just started biting after I separated him from the girls. Holly was horrible to him and I think he bit from being nervous. Fortunately, he was still young and easy to work with. He still gets nervous from time to time. 

With working with my guy. I've learned that gloves make it worse. They should only be used as a "last resort". For my guy. the only thing that worked was "trusting him not to bite me". I used a cuddle bag to get him out of his cage. I allowed him to come out of the cuddle bag in his own time and his own way. He learned to "trust that I wasn't going to hurt him". From being with Holly, at an early age, he was very skittish. He needed to learn to trust. If I tried to force anything on him..... It only made it worse. 

Now, my guy looks forward to coming out to play. He's leaning tricks and greets me happily when I go to remove him from his cage. He still get nervous, from time to time, but he doesn't bite anymore.

BTW How old are your new rats?


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Kaliloca said:


> I think we need to know under what circumstances he bit the first time.
> 
> Was he out of the cage? Was he still in the cage? Was he being held and then suddenly bit or was he in the process of being picked up?
> 
> ...


I already know all this, gloves are definitely only for when you already know that a rat is a biter; that was my original point in that he bit, so they used gloves. As he's an adult there's a chance he may have been biting people for a long, long time and that it may take quite a while to get him out of this behaviour. Unfortunately there's no way of knowing for sure now. With rats that are both scared and just badly socialised, the only way to train them out of the behaviour is through trust and repeated exposure to situations that they know puts them on edge, until they learn that it's not threatening to their lives and that biting is acceptable. They need to learn that Jenzie is the true alpha overall and when they do, they'll behave differently.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Well he woke up from his sweet little nap on my foot... I held out my hand extremely taut for him to sniff, as flat as I possibly could, he calmly sniffed me for a second, then reached out and chomped down so hard on my finger that I heard my skin pop. I can't feel my finger at all. I've got two huge puncture marks and flaps of skin on either side on the base of my hand.

The fact is I'm looking for work, applying for factory jobs. I need to be able to use my hands. I can't be in horrible pain all the time from these bites. His behavior is so confusing because he acts perfectly sweet right up until he bites. I hate to say it but I don't think I can fix him, I'm really worried I'll just have to leave him in his cage forever. I feel so bad. At least for right now I'm done for the day. I don't want to give up on him but I'm scared I might have to. I feel like such a terrible rat owner.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Jenzie said:


> Well he woke up from his sweet little nap on my foot... I held out my hand extremely taut for him to sniff, as flat as I possibly could, he calmly sniffed me for a second, then reached out and chomped down so hard on my finger that I heard my skin pop. I can't feel my finger at all. I've got two huge puncture marks and flaps of skin on either side on the base of my hand.
> 
> The fact is I'm looking for work, applying for factory jobs. I need to be able to use my hands. I can't be in horrible pain all the time from these bites. His behavior is so confusing because he acts perfectly sweet right up until he bites. I hate to say it but I don't think I can fix him, I'm really worried I'll just have to leave him in his cage forever. I feel so bad. At least for right now I'm done for the day. I don't want to give up on him but I'm scared I might have to. I feel like such a terrible rat owner.
> 
> ...


If you decide to try with him later. Don't allow your fingers to be near his mouth. Only the flat palm of your hand in a vertical position. If you have your hand in a horizontal position, he'll be able to bite you. 

I really wish I lived closer to you. If I did, I could come over daily and help you work with him. I know how frustrating it can be when your rat bites. Then if you don't see results or the biting gets worse..... It just adds to the frustration. 

Hopefully Hank will come around. All you can do is keep trying. The rest is up to him.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

I tried with my hand vertically, he just sort of cocked his head to bite. Right before that he was sniffing nicely, and I was trying to just show my palm (he got my finger, but right at the base).

Thanks for the advice though. I was prepared to deal with some behavior problems since I got them off CL, but I never imagined it would be this bad. I feel horrible even thinking of giving up on him, but if I can't even tell when he's about to bite me then it's just hard to have him out at all. Either way I'll still take care of him as best I can, I'm just scared I'll never be able to take him out of his cage (and I'm dreading the first cage cleaning...).


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Maybe sense you just got them you should try a more relaxed approach to getting hank used to you like offering treats in the cage letting him take them from your hand and slowly work on him till he actually climbs onto your hand and for as picking hank up gently and quietly and talk to him. Also have you left him in the cage for a few days when you first got him to get used to the sounds in your home and talking or even reading a book out load net his cage so he gets used to your voice while you pick him up and let him sniff your hand


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

I did have one other thought. I used to groom dogs and some of them were pretty vicious. We'd have the owners get them a mild sedative from the vet to calm them down. Not totally knock them out, but just something to take off the edge. 

Anyway, I was wondering if there's something like that, that's safe for rats. That way you could use that to calm him down, then try working with him. I know you're looking for a job and probably can't get anything right away, but maybe later you could. That is, if there's actually something like that for rats. Anyway, it's just a thought.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Mitsy said:


> Maybe sense you just got them you should try a more relaxed approach to getting hank used to you like offering treats in the cage letting him take them from your hand and slowly work on him till he actually climbs onto your hand and for as picking hank up gently and quietly and talk to him. Also have you left him in the cage for a few days when you first got him to get used to the sounds in your home and talking or even reading a book out load net his cage so he gets used to your voice while you pick him up and let him sniff your hand
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He takes treats from my hand fine, but if I was to put out my hand for him to climb onto/sniff he would just bite me. At this point he'll definitely be having at least a few days in his cage uninterrupted, I just didn't do this at first because I was going for more of an immersive method. I'm just scared that if I leave him alone in his cage without physical interaction from me for several days he'll just become more aggressive when I try again.



Kaliloca said:


> I did have one other thought. I used to groom dogs and some of them were pretty vicious. We'd have the owners get them a mild sedative from the vet to calm them down. Not totally knock them out, but just something to take off the edge.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if there's something like that, that's safe for rats. That way you could use that to calm him down, then try working with him. I know you're looking for a job and probably can't get anything right away, but maybe later you could. That is, if there's actually something like that for rats. Anyway, it's just a thought.


That is definitely an interesting thought. I don't know of anything like that but it's definitely something to think about.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Mitsy said:


> Maybe sense you just got them you should try a more relaxed approach to getting hank used to you like offering treats in the cage letting him take them from your hand and slowly work on him till he actually climbs onto your hand and for as picking hank up gently and quietly and talk to him. Also have you left him in the cage for a few days when you first got him to get used to the sounds in your home and talking or even reading a book out load net his cage so he gets used to your voice while you pick him up and let him sniff your hand
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Leaving a scared, unsocialised rat in its cage is a bad idea, it reinforces the fact that they should be away from you. The best way is hands on. Think of it like this, if you had a new puppy, you wouldn't just leave him in his bed for a few days straight would you? You'd get him out immediately and start playing with him for hours. It's the same with rats; the sooner you get them used to the feeling of being picked up and socialised the better. Some rats are however too screwed up to solve; an example being my ex-girl Hazel. Even though I socialised her and my alpha Storm the same, she is still very skittish and hates being picked up. She bit me a couple of times and she's now living with my girlfriend's pack; she likes her and doesn't get as skittish and also fits in better with her rats (Storm can be a bit of a bully at times). However, this was after almost half a year of trying to get her to warm to me but it never happened.

Aside from this, I don't think that mild sedative idea is a good thought at all. I know you were trying to help but really the only way to cure a rat that's skittish and bites is through trust. Sedating a pet would only leave it in a mental state which is not natural, so it wouldn't be acting in the way it's supposed to anyway during training. We're looking to treat the behaviours of the rat in a normal manner.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

My guy has a vet appointment on May 1st. When I'm there I'll be asking about sedatives for my cats. They get upset on the 4th of July. 

I'll also ask if there's anything available that safe for rats as well. It couldn't hurt to ask.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't think sedating a rat is a good idea at all. Aside from the fears of wrong dosages possibly killing it, there's also the main factor that it wouldn't be truly teaching the rat correct behaviour, it'd be more like "cheating".


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

ratclaws said:


> I don't think sedating a rat is a good idea at all. Aside from the fears of wrong dosages possibly killing it, there's also the main factor that it wouldn't be truly teaching the rat correct behaviour, it'd be more like "cheating".


Actually it doesn't have to be a "sedative".... It could be a natural herb.

I know catnip helped with a cat that was totally unsocialized. He had lived the first 8 years of his life in a small cage. With just using a catnip spray we were able to socialize and rehome him.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Well just now I went over to the new guys' cage to pick up Dean for a minute (who is doing okay, but still nervous) and Hank let me pet his back nicely for a few seconds. Of course this is not really an improvement, since he was letting me do that before, but I will definitely try petting him for at least a few seconds a few times every day, and I'll try giving him treats in the morning and at night, but I don't think I can handle taking him out of his cage for at least a while.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Also, could it be helpful if I put something that smells like me into their cage? I'm also thinking of starting to save up to possibly get him neutered.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

It should help. If he gets used to your scent, then he might be more accepting of you. 

Neutering is a really good idea. That just might be the best way to go. 

I've don't know if it's true, but I've heard that lavender has a calming affect on rats. Also, at PetAlive.com, they have natural remedies to help with aggression and helping make them more calm. Pet Alive is on the expensive side. Also, the remedies are made for dogs and cats. You'd have to check the ingredients to see if it's safe for rats.

Of course, in the long run, it might be less expensive to just neuter him.


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Cool, I'll see if I can find a piece of clothing I'm willing to part with, and I'll wear it tomorrow so it'll really smell like me when I give it to him.

And yeah, neutering is what I'm leaning toward. I'll have to talk to my boyfriend about it since he would have to contribute to the fund. How likely is it that it would fix the problem though? I know it can be very effective but I've never really heard whether or not it could actually fail to curb aggression.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't have a neutered rat, so I don't know what behavioral changes will or won't happen. 

Not sure what vets charge to neuter either. I checked into it a while back though. One vet wanted 265.00 and another one wanted 61.00. The rest were in between those 2 amounts. 

If you have a Petsmart near you, ask what vet they use/suggest. The one that Petsmart here suggested, is the one that charges 61.00 to neuter. BTW That wasn't a vet that's inside Petsmart.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Actually, it didn't even cross my mind that he could be biting you for purely hormonal reasons - the age he's at would explain a lot actually. Getting him neutered may actually solve this issue, alongside persisting with socialisation training.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

ratclaws said:


> Actually, it didn't even cross my mind that he could be biting you for purely hormonal reasons - the age he's at would explain a lot actually. Getting him neutered may actually solve this issue, alongside persisting with socialisation training.


Yeah,
It didn't cross my mind either. LOL.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Haha, probably because most of the time we're used to sorting out people who get young rats who bite, so it's a different story then!


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## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Haha, yeah it took me a minute to think of that too. I know you can't necessarily believe what the people on CL say about the pets they're getting rid of but the girl was saying that the home they had previous to her included a 5 year old child who they were totally fine with. I've also noticed him being pretty aggressive with Dean - nothing I'd be too concerned about, but similar to what Fievel recently went through with asserting his dominance over Ratigan, and Fievel is about their age. Anyway I emailed one place to ask if they'd do it/how much it might cost and I'll call my normal vet in the next few days to get some estimates. Thanks a lot for your help everyone, hopefully he starts improving soon, one way or another!


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Ratclaws I didn't mean for it to sound like I meant leave them alone with out going near them I just meant maybe the rat does not feel safe so if he gets used his cage with also trying to handle him but in small stages it would helping know it gives them time to think that they shouldn't be touched if they stay in the cage with out being handled but I was just thinking a more calm approach at getting the rat used to people with out biting would be easier and more relaxed for the rat. 


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