# How far along does she appear to be?



## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

My darling little Rhea is pregnant, of course, and I'm wondering about how much longer you guys believe she'll be? She's really blossomed over the last few days, so I was expecting her to give birth today, but she's not showing many signs of going in labor.

I put her in a ten gallon tank last night, half of which is covered by fleece on the outside so it's dark and cozy for her. She seems to be building a nest of sorts, kicking away all the bedding from her corner, pulling it back. Today she even decided to use the fleece I have in there for her. She isn't spotting and her nipples don't seem all that exposed.

Here are some pictures I just took of her belly.















I'm sorry they are poor quality, they were taken with my webcam. :x (Also, isn't that heart on her tummy positively adorable?) She wasn't out for long, she was getting far too antsy for anymore cuddles.

So, reasons I think she's going to be in labor somewhat soon:
- Being a weirdo with her corner/nest.
- More active than usual, slightly less patience for repeated cuddles and kisses, etc.
- She's just FAT. I'm worried if she gets much bigger, she'll have a colony instead of a litter.
- She's spending more and more time in the dark part of her tank.

Also, she's stopped eating and drinking so much. I've hardly seen her doing either, but she's still crazy active, so maybe she's just doing it while I'm out or asleep. She's very eagerly accepting treats. (Marrobones with peanut butter is her new favorite.) Her food looks untouched, though.

Based on your experience and the signs she's giving, how long do you think it will be before she goes into labor? 

(Also, her tank is filled with aspen wood chips for bedding. Is this not a good idea? I've had litters in aspen before no problem, but I've heard of people using paper towels and what not for litter bedding. Is there a reason for this, other than comfort? Should I dump her bedding and give her paper towels, or would the change stress her out too much right now? Any help there would also be greatly appreciated.)


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I would say between 5-10 days. Haha that's not exactly precise. I'm just comparing her to what my girl was like.

I am personally adverse to aspen bedding, and think that little ones definitely shouldn't be on it due to smaller noses and higher sensitivities. Also without freezing can pass mites. 
I preferred to use paper-based bedding. I wasn't wild about trying fleece or anything as she would either shred it to bits or hide under it which is not what I wanted. My girl changed cages 3 times and even made a vet trip about a week prior and was fine. Of course, mix a bit of the old bedding in with the new. Paper was also easier to spot-clean the birth stuff up -- you want something like that, because you are really not supposed to clean the cage for two weeks. Having white paper made it easy to spot any soiled bedding (red, yellow, or poo). The paper is also softer and more comfier. Having it laying around was great when the babies were supposed to move cages, since I could create a deep soft landing zone for their climbing misadventures. 

(Also, my momma took to hiding babies underneath. Eck if that was aspen -- which always had an underlayer of dust/flakes.)


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

That is all very, very helpful.  Thank you so much. We just got done running a bunch of errands, so her cage will be cleaned and paper based bedding will be added after I cool off for a bit. ^^ Iowa summer heat is absolutely horrid, especially with a broken AC in the car.


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Darling little Rhea boo gave birth this morning! 

Two days ago I did as nanashi suggested. I lined the tank with several layers of newspaper and then used shredded toilet paper as the main bedding, with dashes of aspen on top so she would feel comfortable. That night, she nested like crazy, tearing stuff up, rearranging things. Last night she was happy and chipper, grooming me excitedly and cuddling. She's affectionate, but not usually this affection.

I was up until about four in the morning and just woke up at eleven. I was trying to go back to sleep when I heard the tiniest little squeak. Now, Eros squeaks a lot when Apollo is grooming him, so at first, I didn't think anything of it. But this squeak was so quiet and delicate. <3 Looking at the boy cage confirmed that Apollo wasn't even on the same level as Eros. My attitude quickly changed from "Ugh, so tired..." to "OH MY DEAR LORD JESUS RHEA HAD HER BABIES."

Her nest is hilarious. She uprooted the newspaper in her favorite corner, smack in the middle of the newspaper layers. The top half folds over her nest, hiding it very well while still being easy to access. She needs another layer of newspaper under them later today, but I didn't want to bug her too much. I took a quick count of the babies, adjusted her water bottle, moved the bedding out of her food dish and gave her a treat.

Eight chubby little bubs!  Fat, chubby, chatty little bubs. <3 I can't wait to get pictures of them up here for you guys.  Half of the babies will be agouti, half will be black. There's the slightest chance that I could get a fawn or two, but I don't have my hopes up about it. I'm just so happy she delivered, I was starting to get worried. ^^; Maybe she just needed to make the perfect nest.


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## TexasRatties (Jun 2, 2013)

Awwww babies  Hope she is a good momma


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## CJMoore (Jul 30, 2013)

Congratulations!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Ah, I was close. I can't wait for pictures!


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Thanks everyoneee.  She seems to be a great momma, although she's still very excited to see me and get out of her tiny tank for a few minutes when I check on them. She doesn't mind me messing with the babies and likes to groom me when she sees me. 

There is actually NINE little bubs. Eight fat ones with big ol heads, and an obvious runt. I really can't wait to see what the runt looks like, but I'm very scared she won't make it. She seemed plenty active, I'm just a worrier.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Begin supplementing with kittens milk or soy infant formula heated and suckled from your skin to help her along.


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

I'll have to go and buy some while I'm out... Will do! :3 How many times a day should I give her formula?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Since she isn't orphaned or being mistreated, I would just do it twice or three times a day. This should be the right link: http://ratfanclub.org/orphans.html


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

THank you.  I'll start giving it to her tonight, I think. ^^ I haven't read the link yet, I'm about to leave for a few hours, but yes. :3


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Small update. I didn't have enough money to buy the kitten milk.  It was $13 while I only had $6. Is there anything else I can to try and boost her chances?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

What about puppy or kitten milk?  
I don't know of anything else during the first two weeks. 


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

The puppy milk was actually even more expensive.  I was thinking about buying kitten milk a week ago, and now I wish I would have. :C


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

No use worrying about it. Any nursing moms nearby (human?) 


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Afraid not.  However, I did take a peek at them just a few minutes ago and couldn't find the runt! (Same number of babies, they just all look the same size to me now.)

Here is a picture I took of them late last night.  It was taken with my 3DS, so the quality isn't the best, but still. Babies! :3









Out of the nine babies, four of them have dark spots where their eyes are/will be developing. Five of them have eye slits forming just fine, but have no coloration there. If I remember right, isn't this a sign that they could have red eyes? :O If I remember this right, as well, it is also a sign about their markings, yes? So they could either have red eyes or just have white in their fur there? Yes/no/maybe?


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Ahhh my computer freaked out and I posted twice.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hm all my babies had dark eyes. They all had dark over the eye openings like a mask. 

I did have one "runt" who kept managing to get lost or misplaced. She did just fine in the end and is normal size. She just managed to miss a few feeding a. 


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

So far I don't have a runt in my girl Lilly's litter. Then again there's only three of them. They're all three very healthy and active. Congrats on your babies! They're all adorable!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Alright, now I'm on a proper computer. My Oops Litter thread has picture updates almost daily from their first day. 
This was day three: http://www.ratforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61314&d=1374757503

Dayfour: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0571_zpsb046314a.jpg.html http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0572_zpsaabc5c86.jpg.html

Day 5: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?91410-Oops-Litter-in-NW-Ohio&p=757322&viewfull=1#post757322

As you can see, they don't have dark eye markings on the third day but more pop up as days pass. They then fade away except for my masked male.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

for the question about what to feed them for milk, you should buy soy infant formula or goat's milk. Both of those should be on the cheaper side (closer to $6). You can usually get either at grocery stores like Safeway. I just bought a single can of concentrated soy infant formula (it had a picture of a duck on it, if that's helpful!) where you mix it with water and it makes quite a bit. Mix it with water and keep it in some kind of glass bottle or jar and it should be good for a long time. Good luck with your babies, they're so cute


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

That is such a beautiful litter. :O I want your little Persephone so badly.
That's actually insanely helpful. :O How often should I handle them on daily basis?

I could almost afford some liquid stuff, but the can said it had to be thrown away within 72 hours so I didn't get it. Would it be okay to get that, poor it in a bottle like you said and keep it that way?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I can't answer the liquid question.

Here's this: http://ratguide.com/breeding/baby_development/birth_to_weaning.php
My babies didn't conform to their schedule too much, but if you feel like reading 30 pages of rambling my adoption thread has my updates.
As for handling, during the first week I simply held them twice a day. Since they've no fur, they cannot be out of the nest (individually) for long. A rule I read is the first day they can be out for 2 minutes starting on birth day, and every day thereafter you add one minute. So about five minutes each right now.
When they get fuzzy and can hear around the 12th day, I would say have them out about 15 minutes. Try to still check in and let them sniff you twice daily. 
Soon thereafrter when their eyes have all opened I would move them into a fun cage with levels, hammocks and toys and start free ranging them. Usually I free ranged them for as long as they could stand, which was about 30 minutes. I still handled them twice daily, even if that just meant sticking my hand in the cage to let them play with it. 
Week four is the fun week when you've mini-rats. They don't need to be left to their own devices much so if you are like me and bug your rats every time you walk past the cage, go for it. They'll free range longer and longer -- we've done two hours before. They will take treats from you and such.

These times also are great to give momma respite to have fun, so just think that every time you mess with them momma gets a break to run around or have some eggs alone. Especially as they get older, it's important for momma to have her space. My girl got very tired of her babies and only was a sweet rat once she got moved into the big cage (plus my neuterd male took over helping care for them).


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

I love the slightly older babies. This isn't my first litter, it's just the first time I've been taking care of them alone. ^^;

But yes!  Thank you, I'll follow that additional minute a day rule.


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Bad news. A pup had died. 

The day before yesterday, I looked into the tank to see seven babies all curled up, while two babies were seaparated from them. The two were chilly and upon inspection, three of the nine babies had small or empty milkbands. I fed the three that needed it, then moved momma and the babies to the small wire cage I had available. It's one cubic foot, so it's pretty small, but the chances of that happening again are nearly eliminated. Their heads are already too big for the bars, so no worries there. When the time comes, they will all be placed back into the ten gallon tank. But that's besides the point.

Because the cage is wire and I keep my fan on constantly, plus we always have the Air Conditioning on, I placed a heating pad on low under the cage. They did fine the night before last, so I barely gave it any thought when I had to leave for the night last night. I just came home a bit ago and could only find eight babies. I searched the cage and recounted, still only finding eight. I started pulling the bedding out and found the little girl, I knew she was gone instantly.

Her body was slightly flattened, very warm, and the texture of the cage had been imprinted onto her side. Her ears were nearly white and her body was pale. I'm afraid I cooked her, but that confuses me, because she could have easily crawled away, onto some bedding and been alright like the rest of the babies. The flattening also confuses me, but I imagine that could have happened with being overheated and dehydrated. Her milkband was about half full. The possibilities I've come up with are:

1. I overheated her by leaving the heating pad on. This seems to be the most probable. 
2. Momma or the other babies suffocated/squished her and she overheated after death, or the overheating helped it along. This seems the least likely.
3. Something natural killed her, Momma separated her from the nest and she overheated after death. This seems just as likely as option one, which scares me.

The heating pad has been removed. I'm about to replace the bedding and put a small baby blanket over the cage.

Any opinions or advice at this point would be greatly appreciated. I'm disappointed in myself, but I know things like this do happen. It's a lesson learned, no matter what happened, I shouldn't have left the heating pad on.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I had a similar overheating problem, but luckily caught in time. What likely did happen is that she was fine and dandy beneath the babies and momma, maybe not able to eat but still in the rat pile. However, she was now warm on top and the heating pad on bottom... You guessed what happened next.

If you have a closet that can be closed, I would put the cage in there to protect from drafts and such. Keep the bedding plentiful and she should be fine.


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Unfortunately, my closet is not available.  It is totally crammed full of junk. The cage is now set on my dresser, above and away from the fan and air vent. All the old bedding was replaced with new newspaper, some shredded toilet paper and a lot of aspen. Momma is much happier with this new situation and has them under a corner of the newspaper again. No babies have been found apart from the pack and Momma has been feeding them constantly. :3

The babies are now eight days (nine, technically, but I'm rounding.) and it's darn time some new pictures were posted! Again, these were taken with my Nintendo 3DS, so the pictures are not brilliant, but they're clear enough. :3

The eight babies appear to be as follows:
1 Agouti
1 Black
1 Agouti / Black (Not sure.)
3 lighter fawns
2 darker fawns




















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In order:
Agouti
Agouti / Black
Black 
Only darks
All Together
All Together
All pales
Light fawn vs Dark fawn
Light fawn babies
Dark fawn babies

I didn't expect ANY fawn babies. I expected agoutis and blacks only! :O I kept thinking that the lighter babies would darken down to a pale agouti, but that definitely did not happen.

What colors do the "fawn" babies appear to be? I see silvered fawn in the first three and buff in the last two, but I really don't know and I can't make any further guesses, as Apollo and Rhea have unknown backgrounds. I don't expect you guys to know the answers, either, but if you have ideas, I'd love to hear them! 

Also, the darker babies all appear to be smaller than the lighter colored babies, particularly the third darker bub. I have officially deemed him the runt of the litter.


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

More pictures! This time with a camera. ;D

All the fat, happy bubs together. <3








Little runt. Pretty sure it's a boy, but we'll know for sure in a few days when I officially sex them all. He's a beautiful little agouti variberk. :3








Runt again.








The only black and the second agouti. :3








The three pale babies. I've decided to call them champagne for now. ^^








And these babies are such a deep color already, I love it. :* I'm calling them fawn, but perhaps they could be mink? I'm truly not sure.








And a picture of Momma caught in the act with a MarroBone.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I love the spotted blond/e (not great on coloration). Is it just the angle or is s/he a variegated?


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

One of the champagnes appear to be variegated, and one of the fawns appear to be so, as well. :3


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

Just got through sexing them all. ^^ I can't take pictures again today, so I'm going to use the pictures from yesterday. It's the smartest way I can think to do this. 

1. Runt, agouti varieberk. Male.














2. Agouti berkshire, female. 3. Black berkshire, female.








4. Champagne varieberk, male. 5. Champagne berkshire, male. 6. Champagne berkshire, female.








7. Topaz/fawn berkshire, male. 8. Topaz/fawn varieberk, male.









So we have three females and five males. I think I'm going to end up keeping a female and a male, although I only want to keep one baby. That topaz/fawn varieberk has totally stolen my heart, though. Especially since I expected NO topaz/fawn babies. At all. :3 And I'll most likely keep the female champagne. 

Everyone is doing fantastic! The runt is really catching up with everyone else, Rhea is being a great mom in the smaller cage. She actually seems more at ease with the smaller cage. She's having a blast free ranging in my messy room right now.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Man, I love watching babies grow 
Have you found homes for the others?


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## OwlEyes (May 4, 2013)

I believe I've found a home for the two females that are up for adoption, but I won't hold my breath. They have nearly a month, and that's plenty of time to change their mind.

The babies have gotten so big!  I'm keeping the only champagne female, who nearly look albino. Her name is Persephone, but I call her Pongo.  How those relate, I could not tell you.










I haven't taken individual pictures as of late, but I do have some random pictures. 



























That last one is definitely my favorite. :')


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Aw! I have a Persephone I kept.
Try posting on here (Adoption area), I rehomed 5 rats that way  (keeping four by choice, leaving only four to rehome)


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