# Having trouble with immersion, is this normal?



## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

Hello! I have three little boys who turn 7 weeks old today. I originally got two, but there were three in the pet shop and I ended up going back the next day because I felt terrible leaving their brother alone in the store. This is my first group of rats and so far it's been a very nice experience. I have had some difficulty with immersion, though. 

They haven't been handled previously so I have been taking them out one at a time. I figure I'll probably do this until they get more used to me individually and then I'll take them out in pairs or all together. So far immersion has been very hit-or-miss. The first day I attempted it, it went okay. They had a difficult time warming up to me but eventually calmed down. Although, when attempting to engage them, they were uninterested and skittish. The next day didn't go well at all, they were restless after 15 minutes of being out, and then started to dart away as fast as possible. One of them (he's an albino so he's been the most difficult) nipped me pretty hard when I was trying to intervene and turn the stress into calm. The day after that was lovely, I got two of them to brux and run around playing while they were out, but the albino was just kind of nearing content. And then last night, I had a difficult time again! None of them seemed to want to be out at all and the more I protested, the harder they worked to get back to their cage.

I'm obviously not going to give up but this frustration is killing me! What can I do other than be patient? They will eat out of or take treats from my hand, and they sniff me and rub on me if my hand is in the cage. I can be moving around my room doing things and they are curious rather than scared of me. They even seem to like to lay and watch me, or come to the side of the cage when I get close. It really seems like they're starting to legitimately enjoy me; why is immersion time so difficult for us? Thanks for any advice!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Is it handling that they don't like? Just sit and let them play, if you already have them taking treats and comfortable. Don't stop when things are good, stop when you feel your rats must love you (wait until they sleep even). 


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

That seems to be it for two of them. I read somewhere that you should try to pet them early so that they'll get used to it and learn to like it, but I don't really force it. The problem is that I'm not sure if I should let them out in my room. There are lots of places that they could potentially get into and I wouldn't be able to get them out; should I block them off somehow? I've also been thinking that they might not even be interested in getting into places like that. I know they're curious but they seem to want nothing but to be in their cage, if they end up exploring will they get lost?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

You either should rat proof your room, or use the bathroom or a blocked off hallway. 


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## hrl20100 (May 1, 2013)

I don't know if this will help, but when I was doing immersion with my girls Roxi and Rosie I always had them out together to start off with. I put them on the sofa and I sat with them. I wore a baggy hoody and Rosie would fall asleep in my pocket (or next to me), whilst Roxi would climb all over me exploring. They were 10 weeks old when I got them and now are tame to the point of becoming annoying! XD

I just found that rather than doing one at a time, having them both out at the same time was easier for me. Because they had eachother, I found they relaxed more. I geuss it was less stressful for them being out alone with me (a complete new, strange, scary person!) than them being out together.

Whenever something was to scare them (sudden talking, TV suddenly coming on etc) they would run and huddle in a corner together. Then 2 minutes later they would come and explore again. Whilst when something scared them when I had them out alone, it took them a lot longer to regain the confidence to come back and explore.


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, my biggest problem at the moment is that my living situation kinda sucks and rat-proofing my room may take longer than what's ideal. For now I'm going to (attempt to) keep them on the bed and rat proof as best as I can and yes, I'll take out two at a time tonight. Three might be a little much, especially because the dynamics between the three are quite interesting.


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

I had more problems today  I took all three out together today. The first two or three minutes they all stayed in my hoodie pocket together and seemed happy, I gave them some little pieces of strawberry and they loved it. Tree, the most adventurous, jumped out first and started to check things out. Isaac and Herb followed and they all ran around frantically sniffing everything. This went on for two to three minutes, then Tree ran for the cage again. Once the other two saw where he was going, they followed. I persisted and attempted to lead them away from the entrance to their cage, but they're relentless and with three vs one, it was difficult. They run all over me and explore me, eat food from my hand, and seem to like me when they're in the cage; why won't they socialize at all? Like I know they're small animals but it seems like I'm putting out a lot of effort just to keep them out of the cage. For now they're all back in, the door of their cage is wide open and they're huddled in a corner on the top level, as far from the door as possible. I don't seem to be the problem, what is? I don't know if my room freaks them out for some reason or something, but this is beyond discouraging.  Advice?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Close the cage. If you can't take them from the room, take the cage away. Don't let them back in and try to move it out of reach. 


Maybe you could start carrying one around the house while you did chores or something. 


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

I was thinking that I'll just put the cage out of sight, that might work. I had the cage door closed while they were out, but if they get to the door at all they seem to be crazy about getting in and won't focus on anything else. I might try having them in the bathroom tonight, and walking around with at least one in my pocket. It might be easier to have Isaac and Herb out without Tree. They're much less rebellious without him.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all, I don't read anything going wrong or badly with what you are doing. Basically you have 3 rats each with it's own abilities that will socialize at a different rate and develop it's own personality. Remember, regardless of what critics have written about immersion, you don't get zombie rats. Each rat will bond with you in accordance with it's personality. Some rats become lap rats, other's shoulder rats and some will sort of become roommates that only come to you for food and necessities preferring a more solitary life with only limited interaction. 

Immersion is the basis for you to get to know your rats and for them to understand you and bond with you after the bond with you how they interact with you depends on who they are inside. But you aren't there yet...

I'm reading about what happened after 15 minutes rather than what happened after hour 3... So I'm not sure how long your sessions are. But immersion is built around the long session. And if I may, I will explain...

Before immersion there was trust training and forced socialization and both worked or rather didn't work because of the short session. Short sessions are in fact convenient and easy to schedule and therefore made both approaches popular... But rats need time to get comfortable and acclimate and actually begin exploring. Sometimes in the short session the rat never even got a chance to settle down before it found itself back in it's cage, much less start interacting with it's human. And in some cases the rats would start to explore their humans and start to get used to them and find themselves locked up again... Eventually many rats found these short terrible interruptions in their day intolerable and actually started biting their humans to get put back into their cages more quickly. Yes, some of the first biting rats we fixed in immersion were actually normal rats that had gone antisocial due to short session trust training. 

You see if you put a rat back into the cage before it learns anything new about you or comes to deepen it's relationship with you it really has learned nothing or worse yet, it's learned that you don't really want to play with it... you are just stressing it and re-caging it. And as nothing is learned or worse yet it was stressed for nothing the next day you start over at square one or in some cases you are actually worse off than you were the day before...

It's quite normal for rats not to have the foggiest clue as to who or what you are when you bring them home from a pet shop. Sure they get fed by humans but humans have always avoided any meaningful interactions with them.... And most pet shop rats have never been out of a cage and might very well be terrified at the prospect. So don't get disheartened, that's why you are doing immersion in the first place. Try to schedule a very long session or sessions where you can make meaningful progress, if your rats need a little while to get used to being out of the cage, that's fine... you have time. Engage them playfully until they respond to you and once they start initiating playful interaction with you don't just plunk them in their cage... hang out with them and keep interacting. Rats learn to take cues from you...

Today my daughter and I spent much of the day playing with our rats... but as soon as my daughter brought out her iPod, both rats walked off immediately and disappeared into their secret nests somewhere under the furniture. They know that when I start typing on the computer or my daughter starts playing with the iPod they are going to get ignored or worse yet put in their cage and they don't even wait for it. The iPod comes out and the rats are gone. There are many things our rats learn from us we don't intend to teach them. So beware the short session, it can very badly backfire.


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

I've been trying to keep them out as long as possible, I won't put them back unless they've been out for at least 45 minutes and I try to wait until it's been an hour and a half unless they're way too rowdy. I know that this still isn't hours, but it's better than 15 minutes, right? I didn't even think about them not being out of a cage before. I got them from a local petshop; it's much better than petco but it's still not a breeder who handles them from a super young age. So far the real issue isn't so much how comfortable they are with me but it probably is being out of the cage. I'm afraid to let them fully explore my room (I moved in with my boyfriend a couple months ago and collectively we just have too much stuff and losing them would be a nightmare) so I keep them on the bed or on our big table. Any time they venture too far I get anxious and then they probably feel my anxiety and that's when things get bad. Once they're on the bed, they'll calm down and not be stressed after just a couple minutes, but when they start trying to get off the bed I get anxious and they get anxious and want back in the cage. Tonight I'm going to spend a few hours with them in the bathroom; that should be way better.

Thanks to everyone for all of the advice so far!


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## ahrat (Aug 12, 2013)

A good thing, that I do when I'm in my apartment with roommates, is get a bunch of cardboard boxes (just go to literally any store, and they will give you giant ones for free), break them down so you just have a long piece of cardboard then tie them together, or use binder clips to put them together. It's a free playpen! You can make it as large as you need, but I would think a smaller one to start they have have to be close to you, would be good. 
This is how I got my boys to realize I wasn't a monster. As they started trusting me, I added more boxes to the pen so they had lots of room to run. It's now basically as big as my living room. Just be careful, some ratties will jump over the tops. You can always double up the boxes for height, or just snatch 'em up when they jump. My boys aren't very sneaky about making a jump for it, so I have time to reactXD


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

That's perfect! I've been thinking so hard about what I could possibly use as playpen walls without spending a bunch of money. I'll definitely look into that, thanks so much for the suggestion!


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## AshleighNicole (Dec 3, 2013)

This post has helped me SO much. I just wanted to say, thank you for asking, and thank you Rat Daddy for all of this information! Its exactly what I needed, I definitely wasn't giving them enough time to be out and get comfortable with us.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all, I train rats outdoors and sometimes work with my rats over many acres... I sometimes play with them on my king size bed, but for the most part they can hit the floor within a few jumps in any direction, so I can't really comprehend doing any real socialization on a couch or bed... but other people have done it so it can be done. 
And yes, a revolutionary part of immersion is reliance the long session where the emphasis is on actual progress. I observed early on that rats need time to adjust to situations and to become comfortable and change their minds very slowly. Fuzzy Rat was a methodical thinker, she would try something precisely the same way up to a dozen times before she tried something else. Then she would experiment with minor adjustments on her new strategy until she was sure that didn't work and then try a third approach and a fourth until she accomplished her desired results... Basically during immersion you are changing the fundamental way your rats see the world. You start out as an unthinking monster and the outside world starts out as hostile and dangerous. You are asking your rats to re-think everything they know about the world and about you when you bring them into immersion. First they are going to fall back on things they think will save them and perhaps protect them from you... then they are going to start getting more comfortable and start testing their reality... often rats will jump on their humans only to scamper off... They are testing you... then they may approach more slowly and see what happens... and then they may have one or several stressful preen thinks as they take bigger and bigger risks to see if you just might be friendly and sentient...

Imagine if I lock you in a cage with a friendly grizzly bear, without telling you it's friendly, how long do you think it might take you before you decide to walk up to it and snuggle? Think your way through the process from that view point... If I put you in the cage for 10 minutes and take you out and you survive, the only thing you've learned is to keep away from the bear for 10 minutes, no matter how often I repeat the 10 minute session... But after a few hours, of the bear not eating you, and following you around in a non threatening manner, you might try to touch it from behind to test your theory that it might not want to eat you... then perhaps you might try to pet it, and if you still don't get disemboweled, you might try to snuggle with it etc.... 

Immersion is a stressful and scary time for a rat, it has to change it's entire view on the world... you need to be patient and invest some time. It's easy for you because you know why you are there, whereas your rat is clueless as to why it's out of it's safe cage. 

One last thing... before immersion people spent weeks and months socializing rats, immersion often boils it down to hours. Because I can recall how things were before immersion with so many rats getting screwed up worse and neuters being common, I see immersion as a pretty rapid process. I know that now that some people are making so much progress so fast that several hours suddenly seems like a long time... but really it isn't. Immersion takes a process that took weeks and reduced it to hours, but if you cheat and try to short cut the process too much you will actually be going back to what didn't work in the first place... You will be short cutting the shortcut back to the original process that took forever or didn't work at all...

I hope that makes sense.

Best luck.


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## Hitmanthe3rd (Jul 16, 2013)

I immersed my boys on my bed for a few hours the first 2 weeks. One on one, then I started them off with eachother. When they would run from me I would just let them come back, The best way I found was to sit on a chair with them and let them crawl under your shirt and stuff, and keep regular cheerios near you so when they sit and decide to take petting let them know petting is good! Give them a cheerio. That's how I got my guys to come to me now by name, enjoy petting (To a certain degree, or being submissive? See: thread post) And now they spin and climb onto my shoulder on command!


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

Today I found a bunch of tri-fold poster boards for science projects and the like at Dollar Tree and I put five of them together using binder clips; I now have a lovely and tall play pen! I have all three of my babies out with me, they're being so great!!!! Since the walls are so high the setting isn't stressing them out and they're having a great time! I knew I wasn't the problem, almost immediately after setting them down I became a big jungle gym. They are enjoying running all over me and shredding my hoodie strings. I have a box, paper bag, a double toilet paper roll tube, some toilet paper to shred, and a pocket cut out of a robe in here with us. They're all running around in and out of things and bruxing. My littlest guy keeps climbing on my shoulder, he's already shown he'll be a shoulder rat a few times. It's only ten minutes in and things are great! I have a few more hours of fun socialization ahead of me. 


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## slothxing (Dec 29, 2013)

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You know, this is pretty much my favorite part of immersion... when the rats and the humans finally start to understand each other and play together. 

Honestly, I even find myself impressed how many ways the folks here have tweaked the process to meet their individual needs and achieve outstanding success. 

Great job!


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