# Rat behavior: Aggression towards others, Hardwired or learned behavior?



## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

I have been looking at rats for adoption for quite sometime now. Doing my research on what they can eat, housing, and basic behavior. I even ask my dad questions here and there about what they are like(He had PEWs growing up), since I am more use to rabbits, hamsters, and guinea pigs. Basically, I found a rat for adoption but, they say he has to live single as he has aggression issues towards other rats. This really made me want to think and is quite intriguing to learn even more about how they love the company of others and live in huge packs in the wild..

Are these types of rats hardwired to just dislike others or is it a learned behavior?
Would one of these types of guys be able to survive in the wild?

+ Obvioiusly, if i adopt him he will be living single and very spoiled. I think it would be a good opportunity to care for one and get use to how they act etc.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> Would one of these types of guys be able to survive in the wild?


Not likely. There is far more then just aggression that goes into surviving. 

Our domestic rats have a very different social dynamic then their wild cousins. They are not the same, and it is not really easy to compare the two.
In the wild males are territorial and live in groups with females and will kill outside males.



> Are these types of rats hardwired to just dislike others or is it a learned behavior?


In these cases it is not so much they don't like others. There is an underlying cause. 

It could possibly come from bad experiences- trauma of some sort or negative associations i.e. if they were kept with aggressive rats, bullied, over crowded, not enough food, etc... or it could be that they didn't have contact with other rats for long period of time and/or pulled away from rats early & didn't learn key social behaviors so they just do not know how to act properly with others.

But on the other hand aggression is very much genetic. Sometimes it is just general aggression. Sometimes it is more hormonal aggression. Sadly many males end up with hormonal aggression, females can as well but it is usually quite different IMO. 

Not all cases are the same. For hormonal aggression, neutering the male is shown to severely reduce the issues and he could very well be introduced and live happily with others.
In other cases sometimes with a caring hand and proper intros they can be reintroduced with others and be happy and not fight. Sometimes their past owner just did not do things properly & never gave them a chance to be better. And perhaps the rescue just took their word for it or didn't try either. Ofcourse that is not always the case and there are some rats who can not live with others at all.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I read many stories of a make aggression toward other rats, but being the sweetest rat toward his humans. If you want only one rat for whatever reason, he is probably the way to go as having single rats is never recommended except in such situations. Good luck. Keep us updated.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

For the most part, I advise new rat owners to avoid problem rats. There are thousands of healthy normal rat pups that need good forever homes. They will bond with you and make friends with other rats. Overall they will make your first rat training experiences fun and your first rat relationship rewarding.

There are some folks here that can likely fix almost any rat... through immersion, or surgery or proprietary techniques... Mostly it's because they started out with friendly and normal rats and worked their way up to the harder cases.

I often work with people who own troubled rats, and we've fixed a whole lot of them and yes it's rewarding too, in it's own way. I respect people who take on challenging rats.... usually they pay for their kindness with their blood sweat and tears... and some do it over and over again... But that's not where anyone should start out.

As to wild rats, yes they do live in packs, read as extended families and the males of a pack have a loose heirarchy where one rat tends to be dominant. Often referred to as the alpha... Females have a similar hierarchy. But unlike wolves, rats don't have as rigid a pack structure. We've owned a part wild rat and in some ways she was very much like our domestic rats while in other's she was very different... 

Typically rats are learning animals, very much like humans... yes some have stronger tendencies towards aggression than others, but how they behave has more to do with how they are raised than just their genetics. Our part wild rat was vicious and she didn't trust or like anyone or anything she didn't know. But she was a very sweet rat and my then 5 year old daughter could squish her into doll clothing. She was part of our family and she was very sweet and followed commands faster than any of our domestic rats, but if someone provoked her, they were getting lots of stitches. Because she was so well socialized her violent tendencies rarely showed.

Most domestic rats with behavioral problems haven't been properly socialized or they may have been neglected or mistreated. Some rats have major issues with intros and will hurt or even kill a new rat, but if the new rats survives the intros the formerly aggressive rat will learn to accept and even love them. When we brought Bunny home about a month ago, Misty tore a chunk out of her flank and another one out of her back... she attacked her the moment she saw her... now a month later they are snuggling together.. It took a lot of work on our part... but we got the two through intros alive... Sometimes intros just go bad... but with work, intervention and to some degree experience you get your rats through it. It's not that the rat wants to live alone, it's just some rats don't do intros well.

There's a whole lot for a new rat owner to learn. More than I can hint at in one post and in time you will understand a great deal more, but personally the best advise I can give you is to find yourself a pair of healthy friendly pups to start out with and raise right in the first place. Leave the problem rats for people with more experience who are better suited to address their special needs.

I currently have a 4 week old boy pup up for adoption, we've pre-socialized him and he is sweet and friendly... he comes from a line of very healthy rats, if you were near NJ he would be perfect for you because he will bond to you and start loving you and be playing with you pretty much on the car ride home... He has been with his brothers and sisters and he already loves and trusts humans... That's the kind of rat you are looking for.


This is a video of him...

https://vid.me/YTwS

Best luck.


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> For the most part, I advise new rat owners to avoid problem rats. There are thousands of healthy normal rat pups that need good forever homes. They will bond with you and make friends with other rats. Overall they will make your first rat training experiences fun and your first rat relationship rewarding.


I don't think there's anything wrong with taking on a 'problem' rat as a new owner. As long as you're prepared for it, and understand that it'll take a lot of extra work. Who's to say OP won't be able to handle this guy? Just because you've never had rats before, doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing.... And in fact, they might be saving this rat because let's face it. Rat lovers (who also know enough about rats to keep them properly) are few and far between.

Also, it seems a bit dubious to me that you're advising this person not to adopt this rat, but to adopt one of your babies....


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

I did end up contacting the rescue to see if they have had experience with him acting this way. Unfortunately, It seems like they are just going on what his previous owners have stated. He is only 7 months old, and I'm thinking it could be a hormonal thing, as there is another boy ufa that is the same age and stated to have the same behavior. I'm presuming they could have been cagemates that got into some fights.

I have had many experiences with taming nasty hamsters/rabbits, had a pregnant/accidental litter (adopted hamster). So, just because I dont have as much experience with rats, doesn't mean I dont have proper knowledge of handling small animals. Also, I am an equestrian, problem horses have taught me a few things over the years.Every animal needs patience, dedication, and time to get over issues. Plus, my dad has experience with rats and loves rats a lot. (So, I would be getting help from him, if needed.)

Saving animals is something that is near and dear to my heart..Just because,this guy has some problems shouldn't correlate that he doesn't deserve a loving home. Adopting this guy or adopting other rats would allow the shelter an empty space to help others. Saving lives and giving second chances to any animal is rewarding in its own way..


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

NFCRattie said:


> I did end up contacting the rescue to see if they have had experience with him acting this way. Unfortunately, It seems like they are just going on what his previous owners have stated. He is only 7 months old, and I'm thinking it could be a hormonal thing, as there is another boy ufa that is the same age and stated to have the same behavior. I'm presuming they could have been cagemates that got into some fights.
> 
> I have had many experiences with taming nasty hamsters/rabbits, had a pregnant/accidental litter (adopted hamster). So, just because I dont have as much experience with rats, doesn't mean I dont have proper knowledge of handling small animals. Also, I am an equestrian, problem horses have taught me a few things over the years.Every animal needs patience, dedication, and time to get over issues. Plus, my dad has experience with rats and loves rats a lot. (So, I would be getting help from him, if needed.)
> 
> Saving animals is something that is near and dear to my heart..Just because,this guy has some problems shouldn't correlate that he doesn't deserve a loving home. Adopting this guy or adopting other rats would allow the shelter an empty space to help others. Saving lives and giving second chances to any animal is rewarding in its own way..


If you have experience working with animals who have issues, I personally would encourage you to adopt him. 

Granted, I've never had a male rat, but my understanding is that hormonal aggression begins at around 6 months of age. It doesn't mean he will stay that way or that neutering won't help. 

It's also my understanding that it's not unusual for intact male rats to live alone.

I also have a lot of experience working with abused/neglected animals. Having never had rats before, I adopted a terrified, unsocial rat that bit me the first night home. I used Immersion Training followed with immersion/ trust training. She is great rat now! 

Please don't let pedigree prevent him from getting a great home and love.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Also, the person taking an aggressive stance against your rat is a breeder with a litter of rats for sale. 

I _think _Rat Daddy's baby has been weened by the mom rat. I can't possibly imagine him not caring about a rat. When his first rat was dying, he jumped through hoops of fire trying to save her. He went to extreme lengths to give Fuzzy Rat more time. It appears that everything he did gave her another 6 months of happy life.

Finding a home for a rat and getting rid of a rat are two entirely different things. I'm pretty sure Rat Daddy's not going to toss a rat in the trash just because he hasn't found a home for it yet.


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> Also, the person taking an aggressive stance against your rat is a breeder with a litter of rats for sale.
> 
> I _think _Rat Daddy's baby has been weened by the mom rat. I can't possibly imagine him not caring about a rat. When his first rat was dying, he jumped through hoops of fire trying to save her. He went to extreme lengths to give Fuzzy Rat more time. It appears that everything he did gave her another 6 months of happy life.
> 
> Finding a home for a rat and getting rid of a rat are two entirely different things. I'm pretty sure Rat Daddy's not going to toss a rat in the trash just because he hasn't found a home for it yet.


I completely agree, my little explanation was not meant to be taken in context of attacking him. just explaining that I do have experience with other animals with behavior problems. all rats whether breeder/accidental litters/rescue deserve a chance to have a loving home. re-reading my comment it can be perceived as passive aggressive- Which is not my intention!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

NFCRattie said:


> I completely agree, my little explanation was not meant to be taken in context of attacking him.


I didn't perceive any aggression in your response at all. I interpreted it as sympathetic for the rat.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

NFCRattie said:


> just explaining that I do have experience with other animals with behavior problems.


This is why I would encourage someone like you to adopt that rat.


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> This is why I would encourage someone like you to adopt that rat.


Thank you, I was up late from taking my dog to the vets and was just making sure i didn't sound passive aggressive lol

Does anyone think in the future there could be some hope for him to have cagemates after a neuter? And working closely with a vet, that has experience the bonding/introduction process..


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

At 7 months of age he is just starting his hormonal overload, unlike a rat that is say 14 months or so. I think you sound perfect for him. I have a boy at home who was neutered a year ago for hormones and still has issues with other rats, but is lovely with me. A lot of these issues are fear aggression but hormones can really make a mess of things.

If he seems good with people, and you have the ability to have him neutered he could end up with lots of lovely cagemates in time. I work with these difficult rats, and often take in "biters" that are not biters a LOT of the time, so "aggression" could be just an inexperienced owners impression. If he truly is rat aggressive and a neuter doesn't help (VERY rare) you are going to have a wonderful ratty friend anyways.

We are always here for questions about anything, and since you already have experienced and love caring and helping these difficult animals, I think he's right up your alley. If he was confirmed hormonal, rat and human aggressive, I would say he might be beyond your experience levels without a neuter as an option.


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> At 7 months of age he is just starting his hormonal overload, unlike a rat that is say 14 months or so. I think you sound perfect for him. I have a boy at home who was neutered a year ago for hormones and still has issues with other rats, but is lovely with me. A lot of these issues are fear aggression but hormones can really make a mess of things.
> 
> If he seems good with people, and you have the ability to have him neutered he could end up with lots of lovely cagemates in time. I work with these difficult rats, and often take in "biters" that are not biters a LOT of the time, so "aggression" could be just an inexperienced owners impression. If he truly is rat aggressive and a neuter doesn't help (VERY rare) you are going to have a wonderful ratty friend anyways.
> 
> We are always here for questions about anything, and since you already have experienced and love caring and helping these difficult animals, I think he's right up your alley. If he was confirmed hormonal, rat and human aggressive, I would say he might be beyond your experience levels without a neuter as an option.


The rescue says he is extremely sweet to handle and loves interacting with humans, his aggression comes towards other rats. Again, this is what the rescue is going off from his previous owner. I'm thinking the same thing, he is 7 months old and working with a vet that has experience as well with more than likely help this little guy out


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

Thank you to everyone who have given me advice. I really really appreciate it!!


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Go for it and let us know how things go. 

I also wouldn't normally advise new owners to work with "problem" rats, but in all honesty, we started somewhere - me with rough dogs. All three of my rehab girls went home to a guy who's only worked with one problem rat. We did a two hour meet and greet and went over all of the girls' quirks. Last I checked, things were going quite well. And one of them is an aggressive biter.

It just depends on the person. If he didn't have the ability to handle them, I would have called my supervisor and told her.

There's also a difference between being a problem for other people and a problem for other rats.

If he's just a problem for other rats but not humans, definitely go for it. You might be the one person who has the privilege of keeping one happy rat.

But if his aggression is directed at humans, well, those cases aren't even fun for me.


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> Go for it and let us know how things go.
> 
> I also wouldn't normally advise new owners to work with "problem" rats, but in all honesty, we started somewhere - me with rough dogs. All three of my rehab girls went home to a guy who's only worked with one problem rat. We did a two hour meet and greet and went over all of the girls' quirks. Last I checked, things were going quite well. And one of them is an aggressive biter.
> 
> ...


Thank you , I contacted the rescue again and asked them a bit more questions relating to if he has any other health problems. 

What are some good questions to ask because, my mind immediately wants to ask if there are any soundness issues..Im use to horse talk more lol


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Well, in keeping with the horse talk, you don't really have to worry about confirmation since I'm assuming you won't be breeding him. Health wise, you want to know how his lungs are, if he's had any problems with URIs. Any signs of tumors.

This animal isn't meant to bear weight. Unless there's something blatantly obvious with him, a young/middle aged rat doesn't usually have too many issues to deal with.

But rats are a nerds pet - they don't have nearly as many health issues to worry about as horses, and the most important thing to ask about is personality.

Has he ever bitten anyone? 
Have they tried to put him with other rats at the rescue, or did they just take the owner's word for it? 
Does he have any quirks?
Does he seem to want to be near people? Or does he get nervous when you try to handle him? The rehab girls fear pooped everywhere when they met someone new.

Those are the things you really want to know. Obviously health is important, but unlike horses where you're binding yourself to this animal for thirty or more years, rats live short, fast, fun lives. Invest in some Baytril, Doxycycline, and semi-annual check ups, and you'll be fine.


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> Well, in keeping with the horse talk, you don't really have to worry about confirmation since I'm assuming you won't be breeding him. Health wise, you want to know how his lungs are, if he's had any problems with URIs. Any signs of tumors.
> 
> This animal isn't meant to bear weight. Unless there's something blatantly obvious with him, a young/middle aged rat doesn't usually have too many issues to deal with.
> 
> ...


thank you sooo much! Going to definitely ask them these questions and let you guys know what they say and hoping it works out!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

NFCRattie said:


> thank you sooo much! Going to definitely ask them these questions and let you guys know what they say and hoping it works out!


I personally just want to thank you for not being scared off by a problem that might not actually even be a problem. Or, if it a problem, being willing to look into it before turning away what appears to me be a sweet loving rat going through puberty. 

Please keep us updated.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I apologize for my rant  It just very much upsets me to see people selling babies so young. It is a very upsetting topic to me, and breaks my heart to see.  I am a breeder & care very passionately for animals. I have strong opinions when people choose to not put the best interest of the animal first.

It was in no way directed towards you in any way NFCRattie. I didn't mean to hijack your thread with it. I wish you luck!


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## NFCRattie (Jan 25, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> I apologize for my rant  It just very much upsets me to see people selling babies so young. It is a very upsetting topic to me, and breaks my heart to see.  I am a breeder & care very passionately for animals. I have strong opinions when people choose to not put the best interest of the animal first.
> 
> It was in no way directed towards you in any way NFCRattie. I didn't mean to hijack your thread with it. I wish you luck!


Dont worry about it, I understand completely!


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