# Thinking about getting a harness for Bartok...



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Today, some kids came to the door and I had Bartok on my shoulder at the time... Loud noises ensued and Bartok stayed comfortably on my shoulder. So, long story short, I've decided I want to walk around the neighborhood with him on my shoulder. I'm not asking for any "shoulder rat" advice since he's never going to leave my shoulder (and I've read all through the Shoulder Rat thread and most of Rat Daddy's posts ), just advice for a harness. I'm not comfortable taking him outside without something securing him should anything happen.

So what type of harness is best? I'd rather it be one I can order off of Petsmart.com since I'm about to place an order (I'm avoiding going into stores until my GGMR syndrome subsides). Here's what I've found.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12289091&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2751755&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3074863&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753359&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753509&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3598013&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No

Those are all I've been able to find on Petsmart.com in the small pet section. Like I said, I would rather it come from there since I'm about to order food and bedding (free shipping on orders over $60!), but I could be convinced to order from Amazon.com or try to track one down at Petco (but I won't be able to go to petco for a while and I'm less likely to order stuff there).

Bartok is six months old, but thin (due to some health issues) so it needs to be able to tighten enough to hold his slim body. It'd be nice if it unbuckled easily so that I can take it off the instant we get back home so he can go to the bathroom (he holds it a long time and hasn't urinated on me in months). I might use it on Gus Gus, who is a lot thicker in build, but he's more jumpy so that's less likely... plus he thinks my shoulder is a perfect spot to use the bathroom. Yep...

Does anyone have experience with these? The breeder I got Gus Gus and Bartok from uses the first one I listed for Gus Gus and Bartok's father, I think, but I'd like to hear some more opinions on it. 

It'd be really nice if Bartok could encourage me to go for walks more. I have issues wanting to leave the house or deal with people and my rats have helped a lot with that and this would be one more step to these rats making me a better person.  Or... at least a person less afraid of her own shadow... maybe. haha.

Thanks for any help!

Oh, and in case anyone is worried (I'm trying to address any concerns people might have so people know I have thought this though a lot), I plan on wearing something that Bartok can hide in just in case. I have a hoodie he loves, but it's going to be hot here in Texas, so I'm searching for something else he'd feel safe in that would conceal him from any dogs, rat-phobs, etc but still not be too hot for me to wear in the Texan sun.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I've used the first one, it sucks. really all of them are not that good for rats. The "best" one of those would be the second to last one, but your rat would get out of that in a heart beat.

What I would recommend actually since I'm harness training Niko, Bentley, and Liam is to first start harness training him, since all rats when first in a harness will Freak out and can injure themselves. Make a simple figure 8 loop using yarn, and make sure it is loose enough to put 2 fingers or so through it on his shoulders, and put it on your boy. When he is in this make sure to give him treats.

When he is comfortable with this on you can either move on to an actual harness, or make a proto-type harness of the style your actually going to be using using either more yarn (I would crochet it then) or using fleece or fabric.

Just a note, I would recommend either going with a figure 8 one since it will hold him better. Or if you are crafty enough and can find a way to do it without risking him getting out of it, make your own to fit his shape. I would also recommend making sure that he does know to come when called just in case he gets off your shoulder and you want to get him back easier. (not required for harnesses but recommended)

Risk I could give a bit more advice, but the baby boys are only on the first step of training (well Bentley and Niko are, Liam hasn't actually begun his training yet).


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

I was hoping to avoid making anything. XD I'm horrible at actually buckling down and making stuff for the rats. They're lucky I cook for them!

I don't suppose you could have pics or a video to show what you mean by "a figure 8." I have lots of extra fleece right now since I stopped using it in the cages, so I probably could cut a few of the blankets up to make a harness, but I'm no good at making things without examples.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose if I trusted harnesses I'd recommend one, but my daughter has been dreaming about walking our rats on a leash since we first got them. And she's been trying to figure out a configuration they can't get out of... so far I've watched a rat twice the size of barbie get in and out of the doll's miniskirt like a greased pig through drunk tank so I have no confidence in leashes at all. I'm even slightly afraid that they might even make a rat want to run away.

Buy a leash, give it a try, but spend some time at a safe site just in case your rat gets loose. Wouldn't it be really nice to know your rat won't run away if it gets free? 

You might even find out you don't need the leash, or you might find out you should keep your rat indoors... either way, be safe and good luck.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

I'll definitely practice in a safe place, walking around the house where there's two dogs and plenty of other challenges that will show whether or not Bartok would be safe to take outside. The harness is nothing more than an extra precaution to ease my worried mind. I have no doubt that no matter what type of harness I use, Bartok could find a way to get out of it.

Judging by past experience, Bartok rarely _wants _to leave my shoulder. Like I said, while out and about, I won't set him on the ground or anything. Shoot, I don't even set my teacup poodle on the ground when she has a leash on, knowing she's so tiny no collar would properly hold her if she decided she wanted to get away. I'm really paranoid. I'm honestly surprised I'm even considering this... It took me forever to feel comfortable even getting the rats out of the cage at all!

I guess I don't really need a harness that I'm "confident" in as much as one that will at least make Bartok have to work harder to get away from me if he so decides. I suppose the goal is that if he decided to get out of it, it would take him long enough to do so that I would realize it and be able to prevent him from getting away from me.

I tried using a string like LW described, but I can't exactly picture what I'd need to do to make it properly mimic a harness. However, Bartok paid little to no mind to it around him. I really don't have any reservations about putting a harness on him since Bartok is the chillest rat I've ever met. Very little startles him.

Thanks for all the input.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

For rats you need a figure 8 harness as suggested already. In the UK a brand called Ferplast sell one for hamsters that is versatile and fits a wide variety of rat sizes - for extra big boys there's a slightly bigger variety for ferrets. One of the loops goes round the neck and the second behind the first set of legs. Here's a couple of pictures. I think they sell one called "Four Paws Safety Leash" in America that's for bearded dragons and iguanas that's exactly the same principle: http://www.monsterpetsupplies.co.uk/images/PRODUCT/large/13020.jpg
http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/10/2449/fpl-hamster-harness-set.jpg


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Ah, those images make it make more sense. I probably could whip something up similar to those without spending extra money... which means, I could make several so I could take both Bartok AND Gus Gus for walks if everything works out. 

It does seem that the other harnesses, like the ones I linked to, would be more secure, though. Like I said, however, I only need a deterrent and something to make me feel better, whether it works well or not.

Thanks RatClaws!


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Of my 3 rats, only 1 likes the harness. I use the Critter Ware Jean Harness. My guy, Armageddon, loves it. He bounces when he sees it. He loves going outside, but he needs to be on a leash to do so. Our neighbors love rats just a little too much. He'd be in danger if he wasn't on a leash. He never tries to wiggle out of it and it fits him perfectly. My girls fight it and it's very hard to even get it on them. I did it once, but it only stayed on a few seconds. 

So, part of it seems to be the harness and part seems to be if they'll "allow" you to put a harness on them. I think if they absolutely hate it, they'll wiggle out. If they like it, they'll keep it on. You'll just need to see how they feel about it.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

lol, I've found in the past six months since I got my first rat that if I rat doesn't want to do something, no force in heaven or earth will make them.

Bartok is so chill, he lets me do whatever I want to him, so I really don't have any worries about him in a harness. I wouldn't expect the same from Meeko or Cricket or any of my girls, though. I just now tried the whole string/harness training with Gus Gus and he didn't mind it. He'll need a bit of desensitizing before he could go outside, though. One time, for no apparent reason, he was freaked out and jumped from my shoulder to his cage. I don't know what he would do if he didn't have the safety of his cage to flee to. Bartok has never had that issue, though.

I'm thinking I might as well buy one of those petsmart harnesses to test out, if I have the money. It can't really hurt to get one and see if Bartok will tolerate it, right? Besides, like Rat Daddy said, I might find either he shouldn't go outside or that he doesn't really need a harness.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If you find the right safe site, you don't have to worry. Just play it by ear. Your rat will tell you exactly what it's limits are, how well it's bonded to you and how comfortable it feels outdoors with you. Fuzzy Rat took to the outdoors like it was her natural environment and she played with people and kids just like a puppy dog. Amelia is absolutely agoraphobic. Every rat is different. There are even some rats that will just leave you even if they aren't spooked. I mean, they just say good by and walk away. They don't want anything to do with you and will prefer to be on their own. Some rats are wired to change packs, I suppose it's a genetic imperative. Just like true shoulder rats that are perfect travel companions, certain rats that can't bond with humans happen too. This is a good to know fact at the safe site if you have one of these. Assuming you really want to keep him.

The only thing you learn from being in your home with your rats is how they act in your home... you need to see what happens under real, but safe conditions.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

That's a very good point.

The only "safe sites" around here though is my backyard and front yard, which are basically the only places I was going to take him anyways and I'm not sure exactly how "safe" they are for testing purposes.

Still, I don't plan on letting him off my shoulder. My heart can't handle the stress of him being out of my reach should something happen... I still have trouble free-ranging my rats inside my house without scooping them up when they get too far away from me. -paranoid-

Anyways, I'll be getting a free harness for Bartok next week. XD I emailed the breeder I got Gus Gus and Bartok from to give her an update, offered her their old cage (a luxury rat home) for free, and mentioned I wanted to buy a harness like the one she uses and she said she'd give me her harness when I give her the cage.  I'm so glad I won't have to spend $8 just to see if a harness will work. 

So, step one: see if Bartok (and/or Gus Gus) will tolorate their father's old harness (aw, it seems sweet that they're getting something their father used to use!), step two: test the waters by finding a safe place to experiment. Step three: scare the neighborhood children with my rats! Sounds like a plan.  Haha, I kid, I kid: it's the parents I'm going to scare.  (Well, actually my goal is to use all this as an excuse to actually leave my house. As I said, I have issues with that...)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Simple math for about 50 feet a young healthy rat can outrun you. Then you will catch up and overtake it. Say for safety's sake give your self an extra 100 foot margin of safety for being old and overweight. So as long as your yard is 300 feet long and wide and you work right dead square in the middle, your rat may not:

A) run into the street
B) run onto your neighbors property
C) Dive under your house
D) dive down the storm sewer

Now if you live on a large farm disregard the above and go for it. 

Otherwise see below for a map of our safe site:

http://www.co.middlesex.nj.us/parksrecreation/Alvin Williams Park map.pdf

It's only about 39 acres, has two gazebos and heated bathrooms and deep water on three sides... and an outdoor shower for emergency rat cooling, be it ever so humble, its safe for rats. Safe sites should be big with lots of room to work with your rats safely.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

My backyard is teeny tiny (definitely not three hundred feet... I'm not good with judging size, but I feel like our entire _lot _isn't that big) and I live in a very "crowded" neighborhood where the houses are all far too close together. There's no highway nearby, though, and I'm far enough into the neighborhood that very few speeders come through here. That reminds me... I probably should avoid the one place I go for walks that speeders frequent. I don't know why people feel the need to speed around a corner in the middle of town where lots of kids ride bikes. =/ And to think my family almost lived on that corner!

Anyways, *I will not be letting him off my shoulder*. The instant I sense he wants to leave, I'll go straight into the house and put him in his cage (one reason being that usually when he wants to get off my shoulder, it's because he needs to use the bathroom). I'll be on high alert for any signs he wants to get off my shoulder and hope the harness will deter him slightly so I'll have enough time to get someplace safe. That's why I'm going to practice in the house a lot before taking him outside: so I can learn the signs of when he's either had enough or wants to get away from me. He pulls on my sleeve when he needs to go to the bathroom, though. 

I understand there's always a risk. As you said in your Shoulder Rat and other outdoor activities post, taking your rat outside is a good way to kill it. I just feel like Bartok is such a good, calm rat and has such potential that he's not living up to because of _me_. In addition, I hope he can help me be braver. I'm terrified of even letting my teacup poodle outside in the backyard thanks to a certain incident. I personally hate going outside and especially hate having to talk to people. My rats have helped me with so much, that I feel like this is something else Bartok could help me overcome.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm actually trying to help here.... so you don't have a big problem later. There is absolutely nothing you can learn about how your rat will behave outdoors inside your house. I am a very experienced shoulder ratter, and I have a true shoulder rat and a rat that isn't. And I'm crazy enough to send my rat up trees, let her swim in mountain lakes, walk at heel and play tag with children. And *I'm* telling you your plan is too dangerous.

Seriously, study the attached photos closely... and think about who is giving you this advise...

You have no contingency for what will happen if your rat jumps off your shoulder and slips the leash. That makes you about half a second away from going home ratless. 

I know the signs when a person is stuck on a bad plan, and I realize that for the most part they just can't listen to other people with lots more experience. I've been there and done that myself. There was no one to teach me outdoor rat safety. And honestly, if it weren't for Fuzzy Rat's superior survival skills, we would have killed her long ago, while we were still learning the craft. So it's your rat and your risks to take.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it. My last post was written when I had just woken up, so I had numbers wrong and... pretty much everything came out wrong I realize now. >.< No more going on forums when I'm sleepy...

And I _don't _have my heart set on doing this... I'm not _stuck _on it, but I am determined to see if it's possible. I've read all your posts (I even go to your profile to see if I've missed anything you've said) and it looks like Bartok would be a candidate for this.

This thread went way off of what I wanted. =/ and I definitely didn't mean to get in an argument with you, Rat Daddy, since I greatly respect you and all that you've done with your rats.

I don't plan on letting Bartok ever leave my shoulder and if I see that he won't be content with that,* then this plan goes in the trash*. I don't want a rat that will walk at my heel, climb up trees, or swim in the ocean. I just want to see if Bartok would enjoy meeting people on the sidewalk, while safely on my shoulder or in my hoodie. I'm not looking for a "true shoulder rat." I know this could be dangerous, even if I never let him off my shoulder purposefully. There's pit pulls that live across the street and my own dog sees my rats as food, not to mention the two hawks that live nearby, the countless kids that love to irritate me, and idiots speeding down the road. I need to be sure how Bartok would react to everything before actually going out of my safety zone. Before stepping out the front door, though, I will have a plan should the worst happen. I won't leave the house--in fact, I never leave the house--without a plan. I'm paranoid so you can bet I will have thought up as many horrible scenarios as possible before actually going through with this.

Thanks for your input, Rat Daddy. Again, I do appreciate it and I apologize if I made it sound otherwise. If I sounded argumentative, I really just meant to either offer a point of view or explain my reasoning.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So exactly what is wrong with taking your rat to a safe site where there are no pitbulls, pesky neighbor kids or traffic?

My safety zone is 39 completely handicapped accessible acres surrounded by a moat and patrolled by rat friendly park police. My safety zone has outdoor showers for emergency rat cooling, and two gigantic, bigger than house size, gazebos in case it rains... 

You however are going to walk your unprepared rat strait through your front door with no outdoor rat handling experience and face traffic, dogs and freaked out neighbor kids with only a leash and an untested plan. 

Somehow no matter how many times I repeat myself you absolutely can't seem to understand that most rats behave completely differently outside than indoors... You can't train a rat for the outdoor world indoors. Simple, end of discussion. I mean I usually hate to be rude, but I love rats including your Bartok... so trust me here, I know what I'm talking about!

Please think about the right answer, now that you are awake and hopefully not stuck on a bad plan... what part of taking your Bartok, safely in a carrier to a really, really safe place, putting him on his leash, spreading a blanket, and sitting down next to a small tree or large bush strikes you as worse than your plan? 

Picture it in your mind... and seriously think about it.... you're sitting in a great big field of neatly mowed grass, next to a small tree or large shrub with Bartok safely exploring... with acres of room to catch him if he panics.... and a picnic basket of snacks and rat treats or taunting kids and pit bulls? Perhaps you take him for a little stroll when he's ready to move away from the safety of his small tree or shrub... maybe a nice inquisitive young couple come up to you and ask about your animal and you have a pleasant meet and greet. Perhaps you meet a few well behaved kids with their mom who want to pet Bartok and you explain all about rats to them... Perhaps you see someone that doesn't like rats from a distance make a circle around you... no bother there's plenty of room for everyone to get by... 

So, I absolutely know my method works and I've posted photos to prove it. Are you absolutely 100% sure your idea is better? You are betting Bartok's life on it.

Yes, after you know how to handle Bartok, and he knows how to deal with being outdoors and he's confident and relaxed, and you have handled a few meet and greets at your safe site and maybe you've met a few dogs on leashes and you and Bartok have learned all you can learn from the safe site and you are confident and trustful of each other... then you walk out the front door and face the great big dangerous world bravely together or maybe not. But you are taking the final exam before taking the course and that's the program backwards.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm thankful for your advice and I am giving it all a lot of thought.

Since the original question of this thread has resolved itself, can this be locked? There are enough threads about shoulder ratting without this one unintentionally becoming one.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually I thought this thread was on the proper outdoor use of leashes, not shoulder rats. Very different subjects and yes there are better threads for that.


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

My only question at the time of posting this was what _type _of harness I should buy. The rest was is irrelevant at this point since I may or may not actually take Bartok outside (_and if I do, he will not be allowed to leave my shoulder. I have no intention of letting him explore at all_). The harness would also be very helpful indoors since Bartok and the rest of my rats aren't really allowed to leave the rat room for fear that they might get loose in the house. Shoot, they're barely allowed to explore the rat room since it's so messy! The harness might help me understand where all my rats want to explore so I can free-range them in the house more, safely. Right now, they only have a tiny couch to free range on because I'm afraid to set them on the floor since there is a bunch of places for them to hide.

Since I am getting a harness for free tomorrow from Gus Gus and Bartok's breeder, my question is irrelevant and so the issue has been resolved.

I do appreciate all your input and will carefully consider every aspect before even thinking about taking a rat outdoors. The first step, though, is seeing if he will tolerate a harness and if I feel comfortable walking around will him on my shoulder wearing a harness. The rest will come later. _Much later_.


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