# Male issues :-/



## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Hello everyone.. long time lurker here. I have two boys (brothers), who are nearly a year old. They got along fine up until they reached about four months old, then Skipper (big black berkshire) started picking on Scamp (very small runty variegated black capped blaze). Scamp lost weight, wouldn't settle down to sleep, started obsessively grooming and pulling hair out of his tummy. I was used to them playfighting and playing rough, but I thought as long as they weren't drawing blood, it was a fair game. Thinking it might be their environment, I gave them a bigger cage. I put lots of toys in with them, and lots of hiding places. I took them back out. I put them in another room. The fighting just kept getting worse. Scamper was a huge instigator. He'd run up and start trying to hump Skipper, who would turn around and pin him down. I figured, they were just establishing dominance. Scamp kept picking, and picking, and picking, and it got to the point where they were honestly, earnestly, fighting. Scamper to this day has the scars from that battle. I separated them out into separate cages (stacked on top of each other). Skip sleeps a lot and otherwise appears to be fine. Scamper grooms, and preens, and bruxes, and chews himself to pieces, and looks miserable and dejected. I do not have room for a third cage and don't want to get a third rat I would have to keep solitary if they didn't get along. I have tried re-introducing my two boys, first by letting them socialize during the three hours of play time each day, then when they started fighting through that too, I switched them from one cage to the other every couple of days trying to keep both boys' scent in both cages. After that, I thought I would try to give them a "difficult" situation (bathtime) that they could get through together and hopefully strengthen that bond. When both were wet and miserable and cleaning themselves, it was a marvel. They were fine together. I watched them like a hawk, ready to intervene at the first sign of trouble. Sure enough, when skipper was done cleaning himself he puffed up, did the "war dance" and tried to barrel into Scamp (sidling angry hissy-fit) but I stuck my arm in the way. Bad move. I learned exactly what sort of intent he had after a three inch long gash and several scratches opened up in my forearm (ouch!). He stopped when he realized it was me, and that Scamper had run off in a tail-twitchy panic.

I truly think Skip didn't mean it for me, and he instantly dropped the alpha stance when he realized what happened, I just also don't want him to intend that for Scamp, either. I'm so torn. Both boys are sweet and amazing on their own, but just seem to hate each other. I'm torn between knowing they need companionship, and this seemingly monumental task of trying to get them to get along. I guess my question is, what causes them to stop getting along in the first place? And is there any possible way to salvage their situations? I feel terrible because I just don't have the space for more cages if other introductions go wrong, and guilt because Scamp seems to be the only one who's suffered. Skip hasn't gotten a scratch through any of this, and doesn't self harm when left to himself. ~big sigh~. Okay, rant over. Thanks for reading, and I would sincerely appreciate any and all advice!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think perhaps the aggressor should be neutered, as you have attempted to correct the behavioral problems rather unsuccesfully.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

I think Skipper is having some hormonal issues. Challenging me and pinching the skin on my wrists in his teeth while trying to mount my hand. Rubbing against walls, the floor, his toys, etc. He marks everything now, on each pass through the playroom. I play with them barefoot but now he's started the puffy siddle-hissy dance with my feet. My face gets the boxing stance. Is there *any* other behavioral modification I can try short of getting him clipped? I reinforce my dominance over him by flipping him on his back and scritching his throat or hugging him close until he stops struggling. I have always kept a "firm" hold on their behavior with being consistent and patient. They are both potty trained except for now with the constant pee marking. I realize castration is a big risk, but I also don't want to have a frustrated, unhappy boy with few or no outlets. I know he doesn't mean it as we still have grooming cuddle sessions, it's just when he gets into his crazy mood.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I mean, you are already asserting your dominance over him and he is still being cheeky. You also said they are nearly a year old, which makes this a bit late for being puberty and something they'll grow out of. I think eventually he is just going to continue to get more and more out of hand, especially if you have to isolate him from Scamp, who I presume is close to a life long friend.

Castration is without a doubt risky. You hear about rats passing away. However, in a pinch it is something to seriously consider. A good exotic vet who is familiar with rat neuters minimizes this. My vet had 25 years of experience and my male was fine (and still is). Within a week or two the levels of testosterone will stop raging through his body and you should have a rat who is back to his good ol self. My male did not decrease in playfulness or activity and is still the same rat I took in months ago.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

I went ahead and scheduled him for Friday, after speaking with the vet. She seemed very knowledgeable and all, and I'm gonna spoil him rotten over the next few days. Hopefully everything goes well!!! Thanks for your help. Yes, Scamper's been his companion forever (though the last couple of months they've been separated due to the aggression). Hopefully once his hormones recede a bit we can try it all again.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Just dropped them off after an hour long wait just to get them settled in for surgery tomorrow morning. They still haven't given me a definitive answer on how much it will cost. Not very impressed at the moment, but they're supposed to be the best in town for ratties and small pocket pets/exotics. I guess we'll see how they do. Is it normal to feel like I've completely betrayed my boys knowing they trust me to keep them safe, and yet I've left them in a strange, scary place where there are no guarantees? I'm beating myself up over it


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I feel that way for every animal at all times.NVets, groomers, everything. ESPECIALLY the neuter was hard. I felt like I failed them and was putting him at risk because of it.


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## Chuck (Jul 15, 2013)

That's completely normal. All of my rats have gone in for surgery. Every time I feel horrible and so worried.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Thanks nanashi and chuck! I'm sick to my stomach right now. They were supposed to be out of surgery by noon and if both were in the clear, I could pick them up sjortly thereafter. It's currently 4:25 and they haven't even started surgeries yet. Ugh! I realize that rats aren't highly valued by our society, but I'd at least like to see some effort and compassion. Not waiting an hour in the clinic and getting bumped behind walk-ins when I made the appointment in advance, and maybe a call when they couldn't get them in surgery on time.


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## watts300 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hehe... Ask for a discount.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

They did that to me.
I sat in the clinic waiting to pick him up because they didn't call to tell me he wasn't ready by our pick-up time. I kept feeling like I was going to puke, thinking that maybe the vet couldn't figure out how to tell me something went wrong. I think it was just the perception of rats, since everyone else was walking through that door like it was revolving...


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Ack, this is driving me up the freaking wall. I'm gonna go crazy. 5:30 and still no word ~drum fingers~
...I know I'm overly emotional and frustrated. I just feel that a) as a customer, my concerns should be addressed, not dismissed, and b) as a creature care provider, they should be more sensitive not only to the patients, but to the clients as well. A cost for the procedure, a courtesy call when it had to be rescheduled, even a "it might be a while since we're swamped right now, we really appreciate your patience" instead of "take a seat it'll be a minute". Even on the phone it was "mumble mumble please hold" and then after five minutes I get a snarky, apathetic robot woman. Is a positive experience really so unreasonable to expect?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

ugh. demand to know whats going on (and find a new future vet)


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

So, I called at 6:30 with another hold wait of about 15 minutes. Finally was told that someone would call me back. Surgeon called at 7, said both boys "made it" and they can be picked up tomorrow afternoon. I'm honestly appalled, as a customer service rep myself, I can't wrap my head around this treatment. They still haven't told me how much it will cost. There is most definitely a new vet in my boys' future!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Man...
My vet had me drop them off at 9:30am (told me 8:30 but they didn't even open...) and pick them up THAT night at 5pm (turned into 6:30pm).
I don't think I could do two days without them in my care.


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## Chuck (Jul 15, 2013)

That is horrible! Are they keeping them warm? Did they get food from you? That is absurd! You need a vet that treats you and your ratties better

My vet performed the surgery the morning I dropped them off, called by noon and have me pick them up by 3pm. The vet techs hold the rats during recovery to keep them warm and make them feel safe. 

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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

I don't even know. When I started asking questions she cut me off and said again that they'd be ready tomorrow. I don't even know if they're being kept warm or held or even on pain meds. They didn't explain anything. I started crying after I hung up, I was so ready for cozy blankie cuddles and scritches and general making-upness for whatever they had to go through. At least they are in their cages, and my nervous neurotic runt has his milk bottle (his absolute most favorite thing except for the occasional french fry or bite of yogurt). They both have their mmicrofiber blankies. I just miss them


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

And by milk bottle I mean to hide in, not to eat from. They do have extra food because I'm a bit paranoid and neurotic myself. This is their first time away from home since I first brought them here in early December, though both were nervous and unhappy waiting in the lobby with strange dogs and cats.


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## Chuck (Jul 15, 2013)

Let us know how they are doing once they get home


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Finally got to bring them home! Finally can end the frustration and get back to spoiling by boys. So the total was $70. I don't know if they gave us a discount for the trouble or charged for the extra night, or anything. Though it seems to be a reasonable price. The neuters were done through the abdomen, which seems to have better rates as far as abscesses and complications go. They didn't send me meds or discuss care, which is concerning (though I did my research and have infant ibuprofen to help them out with the pain). They seem okay, just hurting and tired. Both are dragging their bellies everywhere so I took out all the sharp or rough surfaces so they can't hurt themselves. I'm keeping them very close to make sure they're doing okay


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

The first day home for my male he was still reeling a bit from the anesthetic and preferred to sleep all day. He bounced back to normal by the second day. Just keep an eye on fussing with the incision.

My vet sent me home with routine antibiotics in case of fussing/infection for 5 days :/


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah, I thought a small run of antibiotics was pretty standard, particularly with the abdominal surgery. I'm pretty miffed about the lack of pain meds though, particularly since they keep dragging their bellies and picking at the incision sites--obviously hurting.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe you could call tomorrow and try and act like they messed up their paperwork -- say something like, "Hello, I am calling to see if my prescription was filled? I was told my boys would be on a broad range antibiotic to fight against possible infection while recovering, but I was not given any."

I'll see if I can't find Remus's meds to see what they were called.


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## Chuck (Jul 15, 2013)

I am so glad to hear the surgery went okay. My vet gave metacam for pain and baytril as an antibiotic. You should call tomorrow and request pain medication and antibiotics. You shouldn't let the vet push you around. Although $70 is a very good price for a neuter especially for the method of surgery used.

It was a good idea to remove sharp objects. You should also remove all shelves and hanging things. They should have one level until they feel better. Check the incision at least twice a day and if it starts to open up have the vet glue it shut. I hope they recover quickly.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Update: both boys are doing well. They've been on Baytril since Monday and are showing no signs of infection. The aggression Skip was displaying towards me has completely stopped. He's back to his bouncy playful prepubescent self with a dash of squishy cuddle thrown in. Scamper hasn't really changed towards me, but the only serious issue he had was the incessant humping. He's always been a little neurotic in a cute way. He's less fearful now and will actually come out and explore when his cage door is open. He's much more active during playtime and more secure in getting cuddles. I want to be sure the hormones are completely gone before I introduce them back together. Still switching cages every couple days to keep the scents together. So far both are greatly improved though!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yay!


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