# I'm faced with neutering one of my adult rats or giving him away. Help?



## watthemath (Jun 15, 2012)

Over the past few months, one of my rats has gradually become more aggressive as my youngest rat matured. I had to separate my one year old rat from my three others about a month ago. I don't have quite enough time to give the lonely rat, especially since my cats aren't rat friendly. So I feel terrible for leaving him alone so much. I haven't called the vet to ask about neutering cost, but I've also heard horror stories about neuters gone wrong. Should I see if the neuter isn't really expensive and get that done or should I look for a new home for him? I'm scared that the neuter will cause harm since he is older. How can I find a home that has the time to spend with him, since I don't think he will ever be able to love with other rats if he doesn't get neutered?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There are two methods for dealing with aggressive rats, there is immersion and immersion theory where you try to reign in your rats aggression through a long socialization session and then by being more of an in charge parent and managing your mischief hands on. This means you take charge and stay in charge but you have to be around a lot of the time. It's cheaper an has no health side effects but in order for it to work you have to be there. If you are going to do an immersion and get your rat all happy and properly bonded to you and you get on a jet and come back two weeks later you pretty much accomplished nothing.

Next there is neutering, an experienced vet helps turn the odds in your favor, but if your rat's problems are not hormonal in nature, again you are back to square one.

Rehoming may be a good idea, if you find someone who is experienced and knowledgeable about rats. Many new owners think they are doing something good by adopting someone else's problem rat. And they soon become overwhelmed by a problem they have no skills to deal with. And that can end badly.

So each method has benefits and drawbacks everything depends on your circumstances.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best luck.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

This sounds almost exactly like the problem I had. We had two brothers who were about only 3 months older than a younger boy we got later on. The younger one was a little bit of a sh*t, but not aggressive. He just liked to annoy one of the older ones, (he would like to just get in his face and stare at him and if that didn't get the older one to chase him off, he'd start gently touching at the older one's face with his paws lol. He would also be REALLY dramatic if he got the older one to react in the slightest, even if he just sat up to scratch. Kind of like if a person yells at someone to go away and the ther person starts screaming and acting like they've been punched instead of just yelled at), but he also loved his two older brothers and liked cuddling and sleeping with them too. After about 8 months, the older one finally got fed up and decided he wanted the little one gone and suddenly got more and more aggressive with him and was sidling, floofling, chasing and maybe even biting, but luckily nothing bad. Unfortunately we had to make the decision to give the younger one to another member on here, and he is supposedly happy with his new brothers, and the grumpy older boy is back to normal.

Is your boy being aggressive to just one rat, or to everybody? Is he aggressive towards you at all?


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## watthemath (Jun 15, 2012)

Sorry for the late replies. I might try the alternative to neutering after finals are over but I wouldn't have time till then. And this guy is aggressive to everyone. Even me occasionally. I think it's just when he is heated from being with the other rats. After I separated them I made an enclosed free roam space so that they could still interact under supervision. Well whenever I put the aggressive one in with the other rats he immediately fluffs up and runs sideways at them, kicks them, chases them. Before I separated them, the other ones would have bad scratched and possibly bite marks. I would definitely give him to someone better qualified to handle him if I must, because I know he must be unhappy in his lonely half of the cage. The other three rats have never been happier or friendlier though. It's sad.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Alpha aggression can be normal and healthy in the wild. The extra boost of hormones makes a normal rat more alert, stronger and more confident in it's roll as pack leader. In a world where rats are constantly challenged this extra boost is a good thing. In a cage the rat is all revved up with no place to go and no way to work off the extra energy and aggression. Although studies have typically been done on lab rat colonies just about every rat that takes the alpha role gets the hormone boost. Further studies show that when the alpha rat becomes de-throned his hormones tend to return to normal so he can retake a more subordinate place in the social order. And in fact, once the former alpha's hormones returned to normal he could often live a rather normal and mundane life with his pack (read as extended family).

Of some interest was that these studies came to light in support of castration as a treatment for violent criminals and sex offenders who were thought to also have abnormally high hormone levels. After a great deal of debate, and court rulings that forced castration just might be cruel and unusual the debate is pretty much behind us and I'm not sure that the practice is still employed anywhere in the US. In part, because it was found that many forms of human male aggression were actually learned behaviors and the increased hormones were secondary to the original mal-adaptive behaviors which could be corrected through more conventional means like incarceration and monitoring via parole etc.

This is of course not to imply that rats and humans are exactly the same. Further if either the human or the rat had a particular defect that caused the increased hormonal level and resultant aggressive behavior such as a brain tumor etc that castration wouldn't work. In fact, and I hate to admit it, it would work better than any other procedure that didn't otherwise address the hormonal defect like removing the brain tumor or addressing the chemical imbalance in the brain. Thorazine, although it was mostly used for schizophrenics, did a very nice job of controlling aggressive individuals both male and female and pretty much made castration unnecessary in humans.

That said, immersion targets the normal rat that became aggressive and then hormonal which took it over the top by replacing it's "alpha confusing" by re-introducing a strong human alpha role. The rat, which of course is a smart learning animal, learns it is no longer the alpha and it's hormones drop to normal and it returns to being a normal member of it's society. Of course if the rat is suffering some form of defect that causes the behavior and increased hormones, or the human is unwilling to take the risks involved in straightening out a vicious and biting rat, neutering remains a very viable option. Keeping in mind that neither method will work depending on the severity of the physiological defect causing the behavior.

In reading many threads (and there are many here and elsewhere) and in my own personal research, there seems to be a kind of a split between people who have experienced more aggressive male rats and people who have experienced very few or none. If I had to split the group, people with strong personalities that stay at home and hands on manage their rats for many hours per day as well as keep very few rats so each rat can have almost constant exposure to their humans don't tend to see male aggression as often as folks that keep larger mischiefs and are either out of the home or busy more or most of the time. Sometimes these kinds of problems tend to occur when students go back to school or when someone takes on a new or a second job. 

That's why I tend to like to go into the cause of the aggression more than most people... If a rat became aggressive at puberty despite no changes in their environment and a constantly attentive human being involved in a leadership role, the elevated hormones and aggression are likely to be a result of a physiological defect in the particular rat. And neutering is most likely to help. When the aggression tends to coincide with a human withdrawing from hands on managing the pack or some other form of perceived neglect or some change in the rats environment that would upset the normal social order in the cage that "confused" the rat into triggering excess hormonal production and assuming the alpha role, then the chances of fixing the problem through immersion are greater. 

So, diagnostically... if the aggression occurs when the rat reaches puberty and there are no other changes in it's environment and it's getting lots of human interaction, leadership and love, it's likely something best fixed with neuter.

If the aggression coincides with a particularly stressful experience, like rehoming or change in pack structure or the quality and amount of human interaction decreases the problem is likely to be caused by environmental factors and cured through immersion and lots of follow up attention and hands on human leadership being restored. Environmentally caused aggression can also occur at almost any age at puberty and thereafter. If a year and a half old rat becomes aggressive, becomes aggressive environmental changes or health problems might be the culprits of first suspicion.

If the onset of the aggression is extremely severe and rapid, there may be other health issues causing the problem and a thorough medical work up may required to determine the problem.

Now, I do want to add an important footnote... environmental issues are not caused by people intentionally being bad rat parents... we all have changes in our lives that affect our rats. Some families require mom or dad to take on a second job or work out of the home, and sometimes school can put a real burden on someone's time. And then there are other social activities like dating or having triplets that can stress your relationship with your rats. People should not blame themselves or each other when their male rats become aggressive.

I hope that helps...


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

If you choose to do neutering, the risks I believe are greatly overstated. There are no official reports that I can find. Ring up your vet and ask if they've done rat surgeries and their success rate.

My vet is a retired zoologist who I guess got bored in retirement. He neutered my rat and it came just under $200. He'll soon be neutering that rats two sons.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In my neck of the woods, my local vets generally seem to hate operating on rats although they all claim to be expert at it.... Around here any conversation about rat surgery starts with .... you know rats don't take well to anesthesia so there is a good chance that they will die even though we will do everything right... after they get past that part of the disclaimer they start the sales pitch... 

Maybe I'm just a little hyper-sensitive to the "die" thing and that's just a normal disclaimer... but yikes!

Your vet experiences may be way better.

And by the way $200.00 for a surgery is no small matter especially if there are complications... my vets charge extra for those and the emergency vet that takes the rats overnight practically starts out at another $200.00 if the rat can't be sent home same day.


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## watthemath (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank you both for your replies. The aggression really began when my youngest rat hit puberty. Him and Al are both now the largest rats. Personally I think that the youngest rat wants to be alpha, but Al wouldn't give up his throne. And then the other two older rats started hating Al too. I don't know if that's really possible, but to me that is what it seems like. I would like to avoid neutering. How do I go about giving Al this extra attention? Is there a website? How do I know when he might be ready to rejoin the other rats? I'm assuming I will have to introduce him all over again. That's fine with me. I don't know if it matters, but he is the only rat I got from a large chain pet store. Which I now realize was a mistake. But I'm just wondering if that's a main reason behind this aggression. Thanks again! You guys are really helpful! I actually think I might rehome before I neuter. I really have heard stories about rats not taking to the anesthesia well. Maybe someone more experienced could straighten Al out if I can't.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion is a process I worked up in collaboration of a very communicative and special rat. The foundation is that rats and humans can bond and communicate. Not like human friends can, but some might argue better than some spouses do sometimes... That's a feeble joke... but it makes the point.

Immersion theory is that humans and rats can build sort of a pack or some prefer the term extended family structure. And in such a structure that there can be one leader, some say alpha, I prefer parent. The first step is to connect with your problem rat through a long session of bonding. If your rat isn't being aggressive towards you, it's mostly just play and sharing and snuggling and treating... If your rat gets aggressive with you and attacks you, that's ok too, you armor up and bring along oven mitts and remind your rat that you are the parent when he attacks you, but mostly you still want to encourage a good relationship through play rather than hostility. Eventually your problem rat gets the message that you are the alpha, read as leader or parent and you have the moral authority to be in charge. Or at least you are bigger and stronger and nice and friendly and that's what rats like in their leaders...

Once your problem rat starts to behave towards you with friendship and deference you re-introduce everyone and manage the order hands on until everyone gets it, you and not one of your rats is in charge... you are the alpha... again not some cruel dictator, but parent who settles squabbles between their children... Once no one is fighting to be the alpha anymore, rats tend to get along better... Basically rats don't fight for second fiddle.

So you have two steps, first the immersion session where you fix your relationship and then you manage your mischief hands on. Many folks who are respected alphas to their pack only have to shout "rats stop fighting" from another room to settle a squabble and for peace to be restored. That's how it is in my home... I hear the ruckus and I shout "stop fighting" and there is peace. 

Keep in mind that it might take a while until your alpha aggressive's hormones return to normal so he might slip back for a week or two. And that you might need to spend time with your whole group in the immersion area to get everyone on the same page and finally once you become the alpha... you are going to have to be there and be hands on as much as you can. Being a great leader or parent doesn't mean much when you are not there.

Lastly remember immersion is written for rats that range from hyper aggressive to terrified and withdrawn... by engaging a rat involves responding to what your rat is telling you and not just overwhelming it.. you want to leave the are as best friends, so a little tough love might be required to gain an attacking rats respect, but if your rat isn't aggressive towards you it's overwhelming him with love not hostility. The same goes when you manage your group events, be firm, make sure your rats understand you even when you object to their behaviors as well as when you otherwise show them love. So it's just like parenting human children... consistent, fair firm and always loving. Organize your family structure around your leadership and manage hands on and things will usually work out.

If you check with rat owners that don't have problems with fighting you will find that's what most of them do. You can read the sticky thread on immersion for more information and feel free to ask any questions to help tailor the process to your needs.

Best luck.


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## watthemath (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank you thank you! I'll definitely try and start that this weekend. My aggressive rat loves to run around and get into everything, which kind of annoys me. But I'll move the tables and set up an immersion area on my couch and let him run all over it. Thanks again, it was super helpful.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Best luck!


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