# Why does this always happen to me?



## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm not talking about Mocha getting pregnant. I can deal with that. What I'm talking about is how the universe seems to hate me sometimes. Let me explain.

Yesterday was day 21 for miss Mocha since she got pregnant. I had the whole day off so I did some cleaning up and stayed nearby to keep an eye on her. Nothing. Tomorrow is completely open as well. Today I have a full schedule, can only drop by the house briefly for lunch and then won't be home until dinner. So what do I find when I wake up this morning? Mocha in her nest with a single baby and still in labor. Of course! Why Mocha? Why did you have to go into labor the one day I can't stay home with you?

I know this feels a bit like a rant but this isn't the first time this has happened to me. I once fostered a pregnant cat and the same thing happened. She came to me pregnant so no idea what her due date was. I wake up to find her with a single baby still in labor. I came home later that day to find her with 4 healthy kittens so wasn't the end of the world but still worrying.

I am worrying about her so trying to get myself as much time at home as I can but if things go smoothly she should have finished giving birth by the time I get home. We will see.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Im sorry. Usually my girls have always given birth at night/very early morning so I always missed it. Only my last litter did she give birth when I was up to notice. 

Rats usually have very easy births so you shouldn't worry too much. 

Hopefully no more oops litters!

I hope all goes well


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I hope your rat and her babies will be on. Keep us updated


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Just checked in on her as I passed through. I counted 14 and I don't think she's quite done yet. That's a quick head count didn't want to touch them yet. I will have a more concrete number tonight.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

That's a lot. Have you moved her into a nursing safe cage like a plastic/bin storage box with the top replaced with chicken wire fencing?


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I put her in a small animal cage with 1/2 in bar spacing and a 5 in deep base last week because she was tearing up the DCN trying to make a nest lol. I have a second cage set aside that I can use to hold the males when I separate them at 5 weeks. It's a tank with a wire topper so they'll have 3 levels.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> I put her in a small animal cage with 1/2 in bar spacing and a 5 in deep base last week because she was tearing up the DCN trying to make a nest lol. I have a second cage set aside that I can use to hold the males when I separate them at 5 weeks. It's a tank with a wire topper so they'll have 3 levels.


A 5" deep base will be enough to keep the babies in. However the mom can still throw some babies out herself. If mom willingly throw them out it means that either the baby has something wrong with it or that the mom is overwhelmed with 14 babies. I would place the cage in a way that no baby could end up on the ground and be potentially saved if you find it on time. Give the mom lots of food including a good source of protein like chicken or egg (yolk too) and veggies/fruits with some flax seed oil or olive oil for healthy fat and hydration. Rat pellets too of course. I would put two water bottles in her cage in case on start malfunctioning (more common when we think). If the mom gets dehydrated, the babies could die within hours.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I put her on my desk so plenty of space around it but not enough for the cat to jump up and bother her. I've been giving her 1/12 of a hard boiled egg daily for the last week. Is that enough? Should I up it to 1/8? I hadn't thought about the olive oil I'll start adding that to her nightly veggies.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

The official count is in. 16 live and 2 stillborn for a total of 18. Some of them don't have dark spots where their eyes should be so I'm assuming those are going to be pink-eyed like daddy. I can't wait until their fur starts to grow in and I can see their markings. I'll be posting pictures later tonight. At the most I can keep 4 so I'm going to have a lot of babies to rehome.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would give her 1/6 or even 1/4. She needs the calories from the yolk and egg protein is the purest form of animal protein there is- it won't cause kidney disease. If she eats the egg and leave the veggies and pellets, give her only 1/6 to 1/8. Even in older rats who are likely to have kidney problems, egg white is safe (within moderation, of course). A little olive oil will bring her healthy fat. If you have a grocery store that sell bulk flax seeds, I would buy a small hand full and add it to her diet for the Omega3. I put flax seed oil in my smoothy each morning and feel great since I started it I really needed the omega-3 fatty acids.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Another update. Almost all of the babies have milk bands and she's still nursing. I moved the four without milk bands to the top of the pile but if they don't have milk bands by later tonight I'm going to remove half. The ones without milk bands included the runt of the litter. I included some pictures this time so enjoy. In the one where I'm holding them you can see some don't have dark eye spots. Am I right in assuming those will be pink eyed like dad? I gave her some baby food with olive oil mixed in and she's enjoying that. I'll hard boil another egg while I cook my dinner and she can have that for the next 4 days.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Thanks for the update The pics are amazing. Yes they are going to have red eyes. At what time did you notice they didn't have milk band and when is the soonest you can make sure they get some milk in? A few hours without milk could be enough for them to die14 babies is a lot, especially if she is a new mom. I hope it goes all well.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Yes this is her first (and only) litter. I neutered the males just days after Mocha got pregnant. The official count is 16 babies. She's 10 mos old. I last checked about an hour ago and she was still nursing at the time. I'm planning to check them again in 5 mins.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok. I hope they all get a milk band. 16 is a very large litter. You might have to help her feed the babies, but they need to be at least 10-14 days for that, as it is extremely difficult to hand feed new born ratties.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Worst comes to worst and Mocha can't care for them all, I do know a very good pet store that also sells feeders. I could see if they were willing to give me a mom who has had her babies sold but is still lactating to see if she'll adopt a few. I'd rather not do that if I don't have to though.


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## Rugrats (Jul 29, 2015)

Rats only have twelve nipples, so make sure all those extra babies are getting something to eat! That's a lot of babies. Wishing you luck!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> Worst comes to worst and Mocha can't care for them all, I do know a very good pet store that also sells feeders. I could see if they were willing to give me a mom who has had her babies sold but is still lactating to see if she'll adopt a few. I'd rather not do that if I don't have to though.


Yes, you can try that. Mom rats usually adopt babies easily. A person who breed feeders (see Craigslist, or local reptile club) will most likely have many nursing moms too.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I will see about it. I don't want to mess things up by waiting to long but I also don't want to make hasty decisions and do something unnecessary. Only 2 don't have milk bands so I removed 8 (half) and I'm keeping them warm with me to see if she'll feed the other two now. Since one is the runt it probably just can't get nipple time. I hope. What is the time limit again for keeping newborns separated?

The store is open 2 more hours so if they don't have milk band in the next hour should I go ahead and try to get a surrogate mom?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> I will see about it. I don't want to mess things up by waiting to long but I also don't want to make hasty decisions and do something unnecessary. Only 2 don't have milk bands so I removed 8 (half) and I'm keeping them warm with me to see if she'll feed the other two now. Since one is the runt it probably just can't get nipple time. I hope. What is the time limit again for keeping newborns separated?


I would 't do it for more than 15 mins at a time for now. You can rotate the others that have milk bands and let the ones without one have priority for that time. Keep them with you so they stay warm in your hands or put a heating pad on the lowest setting under some fleece so they keep warm. Let the ones without milk band with their mom and 8 siblings (switch them after 15 mins with the other 6 siblings) for those 30 minutes and see if they get fed.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would go ahead and try to get a surrogate mom if I were you. Without a milk band they won't survive the night.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

The surrogate is a no-go. The store I was talking about wanted 15 dollars for a female that was already pregnant since they keep them with the males full time. There are no other stores around here that sell live feeders.

On the plus side they all have milk bands now and I just discovered that momma put a hole in the fleece under the nest so she has a back entrance. Sneaky girl lol.

Another plus is she trusts me enough that she doesn't mind me touching the babies at all. I can reach under her and pick up a squeaking baby and she lets me, although she does try to block me if I take more than two at a time.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

On the plus side all of the babies have milk bands now. Splitting the group worked.

Another plus is mocha will let me pick up her babies while she's in the cage or riding on my shoulder, although she does try to block me if I take more than two.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Oh that's great that she trust you and let you pick up her babies Continue doing that as many times as you can. Every couple hours when you are around. Not only you are saving them, but they will be super human friendly ratties
Once they are around two weeks old, you can supplement their diet with human baby soy formula if some babies are underweight compared to their siblings.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I also have kitten formula from when I fostered cats would that work as well?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> I also have kitten formula from when I fostered cats would that work as well?


It would work too. The carb/protein/fat ratio in baby soy formula is closer to what nursing baby rats get from their mom. However, since you will be supplementing and not completely replace, kitten formula will work too


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How are they doing this morning?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

You can rotate the babies out to help them all eat as well. So if you check on them and see half with good strong milk bands, remove them and let the others spend time with mom alone. Make sure to keep the babies warm and don't keep them out too long. As they get older you can keep them away longer.

I had to do this with one of my babies and she made it!

Also don't overfeed mom but make sure she gets alot of really healthy good foods because so many babies will be a real drain on her. 

idk if I have already given you these links, so I apologize if I have lol but they are super helpful.

Some helpful links for the babies development & sexing:
http://www.afrma.org/babyratdevdaily.htm
http://tigertailrattery.weebly.com/growth-picture-journal.html
http://ratguide.com/breeding/baby_development/birth_to_weaning.php
http://www.onceuponamischief.com/p/sexing-and.html
http://mainelyratrescue.org/rattieblog2/?p=42


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

They all made it through the night and when I checked on them this morning they all had milk bands without me needing to help out. I put momma out for free play with her sister and the other girls while I spent some time with the babies. Mocha has spent at least an hour each day with the other girls during free roam time so I won't have to reintroduce when the babies are grown up enough to not need her. I'm doing three 15 minute sessions for now until the babies can go 30 mins without her and then I'll go back to once in the morning and once in the evening. I tried to sex the babies when I checked them this morning but since I've never done this before I'm not 100% certain I got them all right. As far as I can tell I have 11 males and 5 females. Most of the pink-eyes appear to be males. The runt is a little girl and if she makes it I definitely want to keep her. I'm planning to put green food coloring on the tip of the females' tails so I can tell them apart without having to flip them and I'll re-check each week.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> They all made it through the night and when I checked on them this morning they all had milk bands without me needing to help out. I put momma out for free play with her sister and the other girls while I spent some time with the babies. Mocha has spent at least an hour each day with the other girls during free roam time so I won't have to reintroduce when the babies are grown up enough to not need her. I'm doing three 15 minute sessions for now until the babies can go 30 mins without her and then I'll go back to once in the morning and once in the evening. I tried to sex the babies when I checked them this morning but since I've never done this before I'm not 100% certain I got them all right. As far as I can tell I have 11 males and 5 females. Most of the pink-eyes appear to be males. The runt is a little girl and if she makes it I definitely want to keep her. I'm planning to put green food coloring on the tip of the females' tails so I can tell them apart without having to flip them and I'll re-check each week.


Sounds great still give a little more time to the runt and the smallest babies to be alone with mom if only for 5 mins a few times a day so they get a chance to catch up. As the other babies get stronger, it will get more difficult for the runt and smallest one to get any milk. Thanks for the update


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Wanted to post another picture. I just finished weighing and marking my babies. Here are the weights:

8g-1
7g-9
6g-5
4g-1

The little runt is only 4 grams. I marked all babies under 7 grams and that is the group that will get extra time with mom each day. I also marked the females. I took a picture of the runt next to the biggest who is 8 grams to show size difference. You'll see in the picture the runt is marked. The dot on top of her head means she's female and the line down her back marks her as one of the "under 7 grams group" I was planning to mark paw and tail but it was proving difficult so I switched to that so it would be easier to see and mark them.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Whoa great idea to weigh them and mark them so you know who need extra time with mom the 4g rat was easy to spot, but it isn't obvious between the 6g and the 7g ones.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

The babies are _SO CUTE_!!! 

Just in case you don't already know............a note on the kitten forumula....If it's the powdered kind that comes in a can.....if it's been opened it will have an expiration date. I think it's usually good for up to a month after it's been opened. I've hand raised kittens too!


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

We've got some pigmentation on them now and it's enough for me to know for sure who dad was. (There were 2 possibilities.) Daddy is Whiskey, my cream hooded. The other option is a pew so to have a hooded pattern on one of the babies makes it certain who daddy is.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Okay I'm really starting to get worried now. The babies will be five days old in the morning and the runt has not gained a single ounce in that time. The other babies have gone from double her size to triple and are developing quickly. She is developing too, her ears are spreading, she's showing pigmentation, and she's got a milk band multiple times a day. I've even seen her potty when I gave her some milk myself this morning. She's not wasting away, but she's not growing either. She does have some wrinkles too like her skin is growing but she's not. I'm just at a loss for what to do to help her. I haven't lost any babies from this litter and I don't want to start now. Also I'm just a sucker when it comes to rooting for the underdog and she definitely is the underdog here. I'm already in love with her.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> Okay I'm really starting to get worried now. The babies will be five days old in the morning and the runt has not gained a single ounce in that time. The other babies have gone from double her size to triple and are developing quickly. She is developing too, her ears are spreading, she's showing pigmentation, and she's got a milk band multiple times a day. I've even seen her potty when I gave her some milk myself this morning. She's not wasting away, but she's not growing either. She does have some wrinkles too like her skin is growing but she's not. I'm just at a loss for what to do to help her. I haven't lost any babies from this litter and I don't want to start now. Also I'm just a sucker when it comes to rooting for the underdog and she definitely is the underdog here. I'm already in love with her.


All you can do is to give her more time with mom, maybe even 1 on 1 time and of course supplement her diet if still not enough. I hope she will be ok. You are doing your best, no matter what happens.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm really rooting for you. My pregnant rescue female had a litter of 8 and 4 died and it was just awful (fingers still crossed for the rest, they're 9 days old now). I really hope all of your babies make it!!!


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Quick random question. I'm spending some time with mom and giving her a break from the babies. As she walked accross my chest I realized she stank, really badly, like she had rolled in feces or something. Would it be okay for me to give her a bath? I'm worried it would mess with her scent enough that the babies would have a hard time finding her nipples. They're only 5 days old after all and their eyes aren't open so they're going on scent alone. There are two in particular who need all the help they can get when it comes to nursing so I didn't know if it was worth the risk.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I wouldn't do it. Baths are usually stressful for rats, and she must already be stressed enough with all those babies. I would wait a few days, chances are she will clean herself up by then.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How's mom doing? Is she still a stinker, lol? What about the babies?


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Lol the remaining babies are doing well. Mom took a couple days but she's back to her normal odor. I'm glad too. I took the lamp and unnecessary things off the desk so when I'm home I leave her cage door open and give her a little more room to move around. The babies are soft but not fluffy yet. So cute and growing well. They'll even sleep in my hands if I hold them long enough.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> Lol the remaining babies are doing well. Mom took a couple days but she's back to her normal odor. I'm glad too. I took the lamp and unnecessary things off the desk so when I'm home I leave her cage door open and give her a little more room to move around. The babies are soft but not fluffy yet. So cute and growing well. They'll even sleep in my hands if I hold them long enough.


Happy to hear they are all doing so well the babies will make really good pets with all the handling you are doing


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

My biggest worry is rehoming them. 11 babies is a lot to find homes for and I don't know at any rat rescues in NC to help out. Closest rescue I know of is in PA and I definitely don't want to post on Craigslist. I don't have the space or resources to keep 11 more males.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> My biggest worry is rehoming them. 11 babies is a lot to find homes for and I don't know at any rat rescues in NC to help out. Closest rescue I know of is in PA and I definitely don't want to post on Craigslist. I don't have the space or resources to keep 11 more males.


I understand how you feel, I would be nervous too. I hope you find good homes for all of them. Not telling you to get into debts in any way but I use CreditCare for all my medical expenses including vet care. There is no interest rates if paid in full within the set period (can be 4 months up to 18+ months depending on the amount of your bill). If you need another cage PayPal credit is also interest free for anything above $99 for 6 months. Anyway, if the worst happen and you are not finding good homes, that could help


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

I used my CareCredit card to neuter Whiskey and Martini. Someone at petsmart actually told me about CareCredit. I really don't want to have to neuter the boys because that is a lot of money. $135 per male would mean a total of about $1,500 for all of them. I really can't afford that.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

InuLing said:


> I used my CareCredit card to neuter Whiskey and Martini. Someone at petsmart actually told me about CareCredit. I really don't want to have to neuter the boys because that is a lot of money. $135 per male would mean a total of about $1,500 for all of them. I really can't afford that.


That would be a lot, I understand I was just thinking in case you can't find someone for a few, not all of them. It is good you already knew about CreditCare


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

By the way I don't trust PayPal anymore. Had a very bad experience with them. Started out as a misunderstanding but the customer service in trying to fix the problem was awful.

If anyone has any ideas where I can find adopters I'd be very grateful.


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Baby update! They're getting pretty furry but the fur is still thin enough I can see the pink on the white ones. The fur is now thick enough that I discovered two of the white babies aren't white at all. One is cream hooded like daddy and one looks like he'll be either a Berkshire or self cream colored. The dark hooded male is also an interesting color in the light. It's got a green/tan-ish sheen when under the lamp. It's a very interesting color.

Also included a pic of momma drinking milk. She jumped right into the container to keep the others from being able to drink and got her chest, chin, and front legs covered. She then proceeded to shake and get it all over the place. XD silly girl.


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## keegen456 (Mar 2, 2016)

They are so cute!!


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

At what point would it be okay to put mocha in with the mischief and leave her babies alone overnight? I know not before 3 weeks but I would like them to get used to being without her at least a little so they aren't so shocked to be without her when they go to their new homes.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I have an idea that might help with adoption and neutering.

I always use to tell people that if they were going to put an animal up for adoption on Craigslist or elsewhere, to charge them for the price of sterilization and current vaccinations, etc. A good candidate would be willing to pay for those services. A snake owner definitely would not.

I would get the money from them in advance and then take them to the vet myself for neutering and such. 

BTW. I want one! I want one! I want one! They are _sooooo _cute!


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

You can have one lol XD


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## InuLing (Dec 26, 2015)

Oh and I think that is a really good idea about charging to fix them since the parents are a pet store rat and a rescue. No idea about the bloodlines so I don't think they need to be having babies. Also it creates a commitment for the adopter. I'll see if my vet will give me a discounted rate since there are 11 overall.


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