# Bad URI - I'm questioning my rats' treatment, need advice please



## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

(I apologize in advance for the long post, but I felt I had to give all the details.)

Hi folks. I’ve been reading this forum for months, and I’ve meant to de-lurk and introduce my ratties but I never imagined my first post would be in the Health section. Long story short, my boys are very sick and I need urgent advice, because I am questioning my ratties' treatment.

My older rattie, Sigmund, is 7 months old and has suffered from respiratory problems since he was a baby. I took him in when he was 5 weeks old and he was sickly right from the start. I am now convinced the lady who sold him to me was a completely irresponsible breeder, and I suspect he may have ended as snake food had I not bought him. I am pretty sure he wasn’t raised in good conditions judging by his poor health and his lack of socialization. I also have reason to believe his parents might have been ill, which explains his sickliness. Anyway, by the end of his first week at home his sneezing – which I’d hoped was just a case of new home sneezes – turned out to be a very bad case of URI and we were barely able to save him. He’s been struggling with bouts of myco ever since and he’s been on meds three times already. He also has skin problems, which we thought were mites but turned out to be a fungal infection. Despite all his problems, Sigmund is the sweetest, kindest and gentlest creature on earth. He never stopped sneezing entirely though and whenever he plays and runs for too long, he starts making these grunting noises, which I understand are from insufficient oxygen to the lungs.

My other rattie, Erich, is 4 months and a half. He and his sister were orphaned and they were hand-raised by a guy I know when they were babies; I took Erich when he was about 7-8 weeks old (his sister remained with my acquaintance who has girl rats only and couldn’t keep Erich for obvious reasons). He was very healthy when he came home (and he’s still definitely the more robust of the two), but I guess Sigmund passed the URI to him too (as well as the fungal infection). He’s been on antibiotics once, when he was about 2 months and a half. He is the more playful and active of the two, and he's not a huge cuddlebunny like his cagemate, but he is also very loving and friendly. I could go on forever, but I would have to open a whole new thread to tell you how wonderful they are (hopefully I'll do it in the Introduction section soon, but for now their health is a priority).

Now for the past few weeks Sigmund’s health has deteriorated – he started sneezing more, he makes more wheezing and grunting noises; for the past 2 or 3 days he’s also become slower and less playful, he prefers to hide and even sleep on the floor under the stairs of their 3-story cage (usually he prefers sleeping on the top shelf or in the nestbox), where they usually poop. He's never done that before and I'm afraid it might be some instinct when the animal is feeling very sick. He had a bout of diarrhea (not very bad though) and he also feels much lighter in my hands so I’m sure he’s lost weight as well. The vet weighed him yesterday and he was only 350 gramm – I’m not sure how much he weighed before he became ill, because I don’t have a scale at home, but I’m sure he felt quite a bit heavier. He just feels very frail in my hands. Erich is a bit better – he started sneezing as well a few days after Sigmund, he has a bit of porphyrin around his nose and for the first time tioday I heard him making grunting noises as well (last time he was sick it was only the horrible sneezing, no other symptoms). Still, he sounds much healthier, is stronger and more playful and his appetite is as good as it has always been. He weighs 390 grams now and he is not what anyone would call "thin". ;D

I blame myself for not taking them to the vet earlier; I was preoccupied with my exams and then the Easter holidays came (they were this weekend in my country) and my vet’s were closed. Yesterday Sigmund nearly died – he suddenly started sneezing horribly, something red which I’m inclined to believe could have been real blood rather than porphyrin was pouring out of his nose in copious amounts when he was sneezing; he nearly suffocated, he was open-mouth gasping, his eyes were huge from the lack of oxygen and he was squeaking terrified the whole time. It was a nightmare. I rushed him to the clinic and the vet gave him a shot of corticosteroids and another shot of antibiotic. I brought him to the vet today as well, for another shot of steroids and antibiotics. I also brought Erich and he was examined as well. The doctor listened to their lungs and said they didn’t sound clear (I was hoping that at least Erich’s infection had not progressed to the lower respiratory system).The doctor didn’t give shots to Erich, said he didn’t need steroids for now, and prescribed antibiotics to him as well (orally). For the next two days I am to feed them both antibiotics and I am to bring them for another check-up on Sunday. The whole treatment with the antibiotics would possibly take about 3 weeks, according to the vet.

Sigmund looks only slightly better today. He’s still sneezing, wheezing, grunting and making other horrible sounds when breathing. He hasn’t had any nosebleeds today, thankfully. I saw him open-mouth breathing a few times (for only several seconds or so) today, but it was nowhere near as the horrible gasping for air yesterday. He still looks very weak, is not very playful and doesn’t eat much. I gave them baby foods, several types of fruit-flavoured yoghurt and cooked green beans with tomatoes, because they seem to prefer softer foods. They showed only minimum interest in their lab blocks.

Now here’s the problem. I don’t particularly trust said vet. He’s well-meaning and he’s doing the best he can but he just doesn’t know everything about rats. A colleague of his seems more knowledgeable (though I don’t trust her 100% either – I’ve caught them both not getting important facts about rat health right) and I usually bring my ratties to her, but now she works only on weekends because she has a small baby. Anyway, they are both not the dream vets I would like to treat my rats but they were the best I could find, everyone else I’ve questioned sounded completely ignorant. The vets at this clinic at least knew about myco and had some idea as to how it should be treated; they also have at least some experience with rats which is more than could be said about other vets in our city.

I read a bunch of info on myco and URIs, but I’m still unsure about many things and I don’t want to get their treatment wrong, which is why I wanted to ask you guys a few important questions. I’m giving you all the details I remember. The antiobiotic they were prescribed is Hipralona Enro, which I understand is Enroflaxacin. The shots the vet gave Sigmund yesterday and today were some injectible version of it (0.3ml, I think he said), and he gave me some oral solution of the same antibiotic to give to the ratties for the next few days. He was completely unsure what dosage he should prescribe for their weight (he even asked me if I remembered how much we gave them last time they were sick???). In the end he decided to prescribe them 0.5ml of the oral solution to be given every 12 hours (starting from tonight for Erich and tomorrow morning for Sigmund – because he already got a shot of the injectible solution today). Is that dosage okay? Too much? Too little? I looked up Hipra’s website here and here but I’m still not sure how much mg is 0.5ml and whether the prescribed dosage is okay for their weight, age and condition. I also asked the doctor about combining the enroflaxacin with doxy which I’ve read is given in severe cases (like Sigmund's case seems to me), but he seemed unsure about using both meds in combination and said for now the enroflaxacin should do. I’ll ask his female colleague too when I bring them again to the clinic on Sunday.

Another thing that bothers me is that he didn’t dilute the antibiotic, he just gave me some of it as it was. I read somewhere today that baytril was very strong and could even melt the rat’s tongue. Should I dilute the antibiotic in something? And how? Or maybe it’s already diluted enough in the solution they are selling? I am very worried because the doctor didn’t know about diluting it and injected it into Sigmund, and maybe he shouldn't have. And we’ve already treated Sigmund and Erich on previous occasions with this antibiotic and I never thought about questioning it. They’ve always hated it and I recon it must have tasted foul to them.

Please, I need some advice urgently because it’s already 10pm where I live and I need to give Erich his medicine tonight. What should I do? Any information would be more than welcome. I love my ratties to bits and I would never forgive myself if they died because of my ignorance. It feels horrible to not be able to rely on anyone – not even your own vet.

(I’m sorry about any grammar mistakes I might have made, I’m not a native English speaker)


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## skirised (Apr 14, 2012)

I can't help you much. My 2 month old females have mycoplasma as well (I keep calling it microplasma ) 
They're on 1-2mg of Baytril a day, but due to problems with getting the baytril down small they're probably taking more like 3-4mg. 
They would be a lot smaller than your boys and they've taken that much fine so far, they're improving rapidly, so maybe that could help you work out the dosage? My girls probably weigh about 200-250g at most.
I'm sorry I'm not that helpful, I don't know much about this plus it's 5am. If I find out anything else, I'll be sure to let you know.


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## skirised (Apr 14, 2012)

I think 0.5ml sounds fine, really. Though to be honest, for the first little while you might want to increase the dose a little bit to try to kill off the mycoplasma quickly. That's what I've read anyhow. So maybe more like 0.7-0.8? But don't take my word for it, do some online research.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reply.
To be honest, I read a lot of info online on various websites, forums, blogs, etc, but it only confused me even more.:/ I need someone experienced to tell me what to do, but I can't rely on my vet for that unfortunately.
I guess I'll give Erich his dosage of enroflaxacin mixed in something sweet tonight, because it's getting late and I don't want to delay it any longer.


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## skirised (Apr 14, 2012)

I think that's a good idea. 0.5ml will be fine at least in the start, until someone more experienced can give you advice. 
Vet's tend to go lower rather than higher when they're not so sure, so it'll probably turn out that you should give them a bit more. But I think just sticking to what the vet said is safest for the moment.


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## JessyGene (Feb 27, 2012)

I mix my rat's baytril with baby food and she really likes it like that; I don't have any problem getting her to take it like that. I don't know what the right dose would be for you either...sorry I know how painful it is to want to help your rats but not be able to trust your vets judgement; I am in the same position. Perhaps one of the administrators will know? Jaguar helped me figure out the proper dose for my rat's meds...maybe you could message her?


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## skirised (Apr 14, 2012)

My vet isn't so knowledgeable about rats either. It's really disappointing. Jaguar seems to know a lot, so messaging her is a good idea.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Jaguar and Lilspaz, both good people to query.

Enroflaxin is baytril right? That's a good one for myco, because your boy sounds like he has pneumonia, another good med to try is amoxicyllin which, I think, zithromax might belong to the same family of ABs (someone correct me). I've seen baytril alone bring a rat back from death's door although to actually give her infection the flick, we ended up switching to zithromax (3 times a day for a solid month). Keep hassling your vet for the doxy, doxy and baytril together are a good thing.

Don't stress about the dilution thing. Injectable baytril causes rats to scab up, my vet has tried diluting and not diluting and currently feels undiluted is the least detrimental, I don't see any difference and push for oral meds, presumably, dilution isn't an issue with oral baytril.

To fatten your guy up, give him some Ensure.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks a lot, guys!

I'll be sure to message both Lilspaz and Jaguar. Yes, Baytril is one of the commercial names of Enroflaxacin.

Giving my boys meds is a pain for both them and me. Last night I tried mixing Erich's meds with a bit of strawberry jam (not very healthy for rats, I am sure, but it was the sweetest thing I could find in the fridge). He ate part of it, but I have the feeling he avoided the parts where most of the antibiotic was located. I ended up syringing the remaining part down his throat, but I'm pretty sure he didn't swallow all of it.: I bet they can smell the antibiotics even under layers and layers of yummy smelling baby food or yoghurt or jam. I think they can tell I'm trying to trick them. Even my cats were not _that _tricky with meds.

Unfortunately they don't sell Ensure where I live, but I'll try to look for some equivalents. The most nutritious things I could think of were baby foods and I've bought several types of them, as well as other soft foods.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Where are you located Saskia?

A few questions before I can really help...

1) I shall assume injectable baytril was used each time for Sigmund? Did he respond quickly at first? How long were the treatments each time?

2) Is there any mg/ml on the bottle you were given? THIS is vital before i can determine if .5 ml is accurate, overdosing or underdosing. I *thnk* 22.7 mg/ml or2.27% is the lowest of the injectables and baytril should be dosed at 10 mg/kg (the other person in this post is underdosing)

Using 22.7 mg/ml and your 350 gram weight I am gettng a dose of .16 cc twice a day. Are you giving .5 once a day?

As for baytril alone with such a sick rat, its not going to work, he needs a hard hitting combo. Either doxy/baytril, zithro/baytril (My personal fav), or clavamox/baytril..you might have to insist.

Poor lovey. I am so sorry he's this sick.

I did up a video on how to syringe meds into your rat, maybe it will help you sort out something so you can make sure he gets it all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-_bFMkutKk


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Hi and thanks for the quick reaction. I'm in Bulgaria. Alas...

1) No, he's never been given injectible Baytril on previous occasions, only oral solutions. His treatments took about two weeks, if I recall correctly. I wouldn't say he would respond very quickly to the treatment, but after the full course the wheezing, the grunting and other symptoms would stop. He never completely stopped sneezing unfortunately. There would be days when he doesn't sneeze at all, and then there would be days when he would sneeze a couple of times a day.  But I've never seen him this sick before. 

This is the first time we're using injectible antibiotics and steroids on him. They were used only for the first couple of days of the treatment (Thursday and Friday) and for the rest of the treatment I would be giving him the antibiotics orally - unless the vet decides something else.

2) That's the problem. The vet didn't give me the whole bottle, he only gave me small amount of the medication that would last me until Sunday, whem I'm bringing the rats again for re-evatluation. I'm pretty sure the bottle he took the injectible solution out of said something like "5%", but I have no idea how to read such things. I found it on the internet though, and I'm 99.9% sure this is it: http://www.hipra.com/wps/portal/web/inicio/nuestrosProductos/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDU8dASydDRwMLpwADA09PC2cXA3MnAwtDM6B8JFAeB3A0wKc71ASqG7u8gb8RUXbjNh2_7nCQX_HbDpbH7Tc_j_zcVP2C3NDQCIMsEwDUU3Yx/dl3/d3/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS9ZQnZ3LzZfMDVBUTlCMUEwOEJQMDBJSThDRDA3QjA4MTY!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/productos_en/hipra/secciones/nuestrosproductos/00/127562/121353_00/44400_00

And I think this is the one they gave me to feed him orally: http://www.hipra.com/wps/portal/web/inicio/nuestrosProductos/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDU8dASydDRwMLpwADA09PC2cXA3MnAwtDM6B8JFAeB3A0wKc71ASqG7u8gb8RUXbjNh2_7nCQX_HbDpbH7Tc_j_zcVP2C3NDQCIMsEwDUU3Yx/dl3/d3/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS9ZQnZ3LzZfMDVBUTlCMUEwOEJQMDBJSThDRDA3QjA4MTY!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/productos_en/hipra/secciones/nuestrosproductos/00/127562/121367_00/44430_00

I read the info but I have no idea what it means.???

I'll be bringing the ratties again to the vet's tomorrow and I'll make sure to check what the bottle says, to be on the safe side.
I'm giving him 0.5ml twice a day (every 12 hours), which makes 1ml a day.
I'll definitely insist for zithro then. Is there any chart I can use as referrence? I'd like to bring one to my vet to avoid further mistakes.
Thanks for the video - I've already seen it, I just didn't know it was you.;D That's exactly how I'm trying to syringe the meds to my boys, but I have yet to perfect my technique obviously, because they still manage to squirm out of my grasp or push the syringe away. 

I actually found they DO sell Ensure where I live - I've no idea why I haven't noticed it before. There are several types of it - which one would you recommend for a very sick rattie?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Hmmm I wonder if they just saw the .5 ml on the directions which is what should be put in a chicken's drinking water? Once you find out the real concentration, PM me again?

My rats prefer strawberry Ensure with vanilla a distant second LOL

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/azithromycin.php

For zithro its best to get a prescription from your vet for pediatric powdered zithromax at the drugstore/pharmacy. Make sure he/she writes down that the powder must be split into 2 parts (as its only good for 11 days) and only 1 bottle rehydrated (make sure they tell you how much distilled water to use when rehydrating the 2nd bottle).

It says doxy and amoxicillin for combos, but baytril actually works the very best with the zithro  I have tried all 3, and saved a very very sick girl with pneumonia with this combo.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Hi, we just got back from the vet. Sigmund has lost another 20g  Erich has gained 10g.

I checked the bottle of the antibiotics for the concentration - 1ml of Hipralona Enro has 50mg of Enroflaxacin. What is the recommended dose in that case? My vet raised his dose to 1.6ml every 12 hours. For Erich, who is somewhat better, she prescribed 1ml every 12 hours. I have't given it to them yet, because I wanted to check with you first.

I'm also ordering to buy Baytril, which my vet told me was better with rats, but I will have to get it on Monday or Tuesday because my vet didn't have it in stock, so for today I'm sticking with the Hipralona Enro.

I talked to her about combining it with something else and she agreed to try with Azithromicyn. Alas, I couldn't find Zithromax for kids anywhere (and most drugstores were closed as its Sunday), so I bought something called Azatril -it's in the form of capsules each of which contains 250mg of Azithromicyn (in the form of powder). Any idea how I can feed it to my ratties? I suppose I could mix it with water and syringe it down their throats, but I'm not sure how much of the powder I should use? ???


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

I've tried calculating the whole thing using your info, and I think what the vet prescribed is a massive overdose.??? Isn't 0.1ml (or even less) a more proper dose?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Saskia said:


> I've tried calculating the whole thing using your info, and I think what the vet prescribed is a massive overdose.??? Isn't 0.1ml (or even less) a more proper dose?


Wow, massive overdose!!

OK just to clarify

350 gram rat - 50 mg/ml enrofloxacin - his dose should be .07 (round up to .1 cc) twice a day.

For the zithromax capsules, can you get some type of syrup sweetner like we have here? I use strawberry Nesquik syrup...take a small bottle, put half syrup and half water roughly.

Then using a syringe, you would draw up 5 cc's of this solution and put into a medicating bottle (with a cap), add one 250 mg capsule and now you have 50 mg/ml zithro

350 g rat - 50 mgml zithro - recc. dosage 17.6 mg/kg - dose would be .12 cc twice a day.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reply! Yes, that's what my calculations showed too - about .07 for Sigmund and .08 for Erich (who is 400g as of today). Thank goodness I didn't follow up on the vet's orders; even with my horrible math skills I figured something was very much off with the dose. I gave them both a little under 0.1ml - it was a bit difficult to get the precise dose on my syringe. I mixed it with some stawberry-flavoured yoghurt and they lapped it up.

I am very worried because yesterday I gave them both 0.5ml twice. :'( What could the side-effects of such overdosing be? I'm terrified it could've burnt their throats and stomach. I read somewhere overdosing on Baytril could give dogs blindness and anorexia - I hope that's not true for rats too.

A few more questions: would a 0.5l bottle be good to dilute the Zithro in? (I'll get the syrup, no problem). Do you have any idea how long the mixture would be good for (like, could I use it for a couple of days or more)? Also, how many hours apart should I give the Baytril and the Zithro? And last, but not least - are there some products I should never give my ratties when they're on meds? I know some meds aren't supposed to be given along with dairy products - I couldn't find anything like this about Baytril and Zithro, but better be safe than sorry.

I'm sorry I keep bothering you with so many questions. Your help is priceless!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The huge dose might upset their tummy but only if it was repeated over and over would I worry too much about toxicity.

I would use a baby jar bottle or even a pill bottle with a good lid...5 ml's is not much liquid. and should be used up in about 4 days or so...I would make fresh every 4 days.

Doxy is the one you must be careful with calcium/iron, etc.

Also probiotics should not be given within 2 hours of any antibiotics.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks! Whew, I was starting to really panic about the toxicity. All kinds of horrible scenarios going through mu had.
I bought a medication bottle from the store for the syrup-meds mix and put it in the fridge. I was worried the syrup might have a bad effect on the medicine after a day or two.
I've taken leave of absence from work for the next few days to care for the ratties, and I'm really really hoping they will start getting better soon. They've been out of their cage for most of today. Erich has been his usual wild playful thing. I wouldn't know he was sick if wasn't for his occasional sneezing and noisy breathing. Sigmund looks a bit better too, he's climbing and jumping about and he ate a bit more than he did yesterday. He spends a lot of time thoroughly grooming himself too. He still looks very gaunt though, it's breaking my heart. And he keeps snuggling up to me, but instead of making me happy it only makes me more worried that it might be some indication he's not feeling well.:/
I suppose I owe all of you guys and Lilspaz in particular a big thank you, so I'll make a thread for my boys in the Meet my rat section with some piccies


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

lilspaz68 said:


> Also probiotics should not be given within 2 hours of any antibiotics.


That makes sense, of course. *slaps forehead* I suppose that means I shouldn't give my ratties their Baytril with yoghurt? That was the easiest way to trick them into lapping it up. They liked baby food initially but now they turn their noses up at it.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

If the rat can be restrained, syringing baytril seems to work the best, if it's a feisty little thing which loves it's independence, it might oblige to eat some ABs soaked bread.


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## katkandy (Mar 3, 2012)

may i just say, saskia, (off the topic completely) that your english is FABULOUS!

and, of course, all the luck in the world to your boys.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

Yeah, mine are feisty little things. Sometimes I have to syringe it to them, but I prefer not to, because I'm never sure how much of the meds they've actually swallowed, plus I'm afraid I might hurt them by pushing the syringe in their mouths. I haven't thought of using bread. Mine loved toast when they were little, but I'm not sure they care much for it now - not after I've introduced them to oh so many other treats. I'll try it though.



katkandy said:


> may i just say, saskia, (off the topic completely) that your english is FABULOUS!
> 
> and, of course, all the luck in the world to your boys.


Thank you, that's very kind of you.

Here's the piccie thread I made for my boys.


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## Saskia (Nov 5, 2011)

I have no idea why my latest post on the thread hasn't shown up.???

Thank you guys for all of your wonderful advice and your support. 

I bought a digital kitchen scale today (something I should have done long time ago anyway) so I can keep track of my boys' weight. Sigmund is now about 360g and Erich is about 417g - I can't be sure exactly because they were wriggling about the whole time trying to get off the scale. They don't seem to like it, that's for sure. If this is correct, they must have gained a few gramms over the past few days. Here's hoping all the nutritious foods I'm offering them are starting to help. I'm worried Sigmund is not eating much - he's never been a voracious glutton like Erich, but he still had a healthy appetite. Now he's completely avoiding his lab blocks and only seems (somewhat) interested in his yoggies, ensure and baby foods and also his favourite sunflower seeds and crab sticks. I got him to eat a bit of cream cheese, which he usually devours but now he was mostly sniffing at it suspiciously. I offered him some chocolate, but he didn't eat it. A boy who doesn't want chocolate must be really feeling unwell.

I haven't seen him drinking any water in days. And he only drank a tiny bit of milk. Of course, most of his "food" these days is rather watery, so he can't be dehydrated (can he?), but I still don't like it.

I have another question regarding the antibiotics. My vet obviously prescribed a massive overdose, so I ended up with a lot more of it than I actually need - I have it in a big syringe in my fridge. What she gave me was the injectable solution, so I guess it could last longer? I don't know the expiration date of the bottle (but I'll check it next time I go to the vet's which will be tomorrow or the day after), but still. _Presuming _the bottle doesn't expire any time within the next few weeks, and I keep it in the fridge in a syringe, will I be able to use it over the next few days or weeks? I know that's a lot of guesswork but I had to ask. I considered buying a whole bottle of Baytril, but seeing as it expires so quickly I don't see the point.

And another thing - I noticed yesterday my rattie has a bit of scabbing from the injections he got the first couple of days of the treatment. It doesn't look nearly as bad as the pictures I found online (ouch!), and it doesn't seem to be bothering him, he's not scratching it or anything else. His skin in the area of the shot looked a bit inflamed yesterday but now seems to be mostly back to its normal pale pink. There are still some scabs, though. I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help it heal faster. Saline, perhaps?



katkandy said:


> may i just say, saskia, (off the topic completely) that your english is FABULOUS!
> 
> and, of course, all the luck in the world to your boys.


Thank you, on both counts.

If anyone is interested, I posted pictures of my boys here: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?48578-The-Psychology-Guild-(Meet-My-Boys)


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