# Skipping Quarantine. On Pins and Needles Now



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

It's been 5 days now since I brought home 2 new baby rats. I didn't quarantine them before introducing them to the mischief. 

I was really excited and anxious for the girls to have playmates and suffered from 'It Won't Happen To Me' syndrome. Everything is fine. But I've been reading up a lot on rat health care to get a first aid kit together for them. Now I'm having anxiety over the possibility of one of the new ones having something. Which has also put a fire under my behind to get a kit ready in case they DO have something. And I'm so attached to them all! It kills me to think that my 3 healthy rats could get something from the 2 new ones and I could end up with 5 sick ones 

*I will Never EVER do such a stupid thing again! *


----------



## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

The odds might be low but it is definitely never worth skipping. 

Not long ago alot of people I know, ended up with very sick rats, rats were just dying and others were just so sick. I posted on it here http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?291433-Why-quarantine-is-so-important!

It seriously terrified me. I am beyond ultra careful now. It can be really scary.

But I hope all of your girls are fine. if none of them have been showing any symptoms it is likely ok.
i would not let it eat away at you. We all make mistakes but we learn from them


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> if none of them have been showing any symptoms it is likely ok.
> i would not let it eat away at you. We all make mistakes but we learn from them


Thanks.

I'm not going to be able to really relax until the 3 week recommended quarantine time is up.


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It is stated in the links Moonkissed provided, but I want to say it here anyway. You put your pets at risk EACH time you go to a pet store- whether you buy something or not. The viruses stay active on your clothes for 3-4 hours. So if you go to the pet store after work, and go home, you could be carrying deadly viruses on your clothes that would kill all your rats. Better to buy online.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Well, I've been reading your thread, following links and reading and looking stuff up on my own.............

All I can say...............you have a *LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT* of questions coming if I can't straighten all of this out in my head. And then there are the comments about _other diseases_ on the same thread......

I hope you're a good teacher and a patient one at that! My poor little brain can't handle it all!


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I always wondered about people doing rat rescue. They often have a quarantine home or external building. However, rats keep coming in the quarantine homes, so unless there are no other rats coming in in a 3 weeks period, their quarantine is pretty much useless as the rats coming in can contaminate the rats that will be graduating from quarantine in a couple days/weeks, right?


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I haven't finished looking at everything on that thread and the links! 

I understand now why people are so cautious about getting a rat at a pet store. Not going into one again. I adopt my next rat from rescue.

I originally studied biomedical science, so everytime I see something new, it just creates another question for me find an answer for. My mind can be a tad bit over analytical........but I'd rather understand as much as possible than be in the dark about this stuff. 

Does anyone know where to find current statistics concerning how many states Sendai & SDA have spread to since last year? The last I was able to find is that sometime last year it was as far south as Georgia. I'm sure it must have made it to Texas, but I haven't found anything yet. 

Is this thing as prevalent as it was this time last year?


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I always wondered about people doing rat rescue. They often have a quarantine home or external building. However, rats keep coming in the quarantine homes, so unless there are no other rats coming in in a 3 weeks period, their quarantine is pretty much useless as the rats coming in can contaminate the rats that will be graduating from quarantine in a couple days/weeks, right?


One of the links in her thread leads to a Rat Rescue group on FB. It appears that the rescue made announcements about everything as they happened. So _of course_ I went their home page to find out more and _of course_ saw other things on their site. It appears that this group is dealing with quarantine responsibly.


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> One of the links in her thread leads to a Rat Rescue group on FB. It appears that the rescue made announcements about everything as they happened. So _of course_ I went their home page to find out more and _of course_ saw other things on their site. It appears that this group is dealing with quarantine responsibly.


Oh I didn't look at it- I wasn't talking about any rescue in particular. I just saw some rescues getting rats each week so none of the rats have a full 3 weeks by themselves.


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I hesitate between reading all those posts as I already know most of it I'm sure, or not...I don't want to scare myself too much, especially since I don't buy rats from pet stores or even go to any pet stores. Oh well, I will read it all anyway, now I want to know if I knew it all about it or not.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

The other disease that I would encourage everyone to know about is bordetella, aka parvo aka kennel cough in dogs. Apparently if your dog has just been vaccinated for it, it can be passed on to your rats. Even if it is just a dead virus, it can _still _infect your rats. So we have to quarantine the dog and the rats now, too. Our dogs are going to need their updates soon. 

Someone's going to be spending some time outside!


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I was used to volunteer at an animal shelter and at avwildlife rehab center until 2 months ago. I was planning on doing it again starting in a few weeks. I always took all the precautions possible like changing clothes and shoes, washing dirty clothes, taking shower, blowing nose. Not sure how safe it is even with all those precautions. I didn't know about bordetella.


----------



## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Isn't parvo and bordetella/kennel cough two different viruses?


----------



## Rugrats (Jul 29, 2015)

Fu-Inle said:


> Isn't parvo and bordetella/kennel cough two different viruses?


Yup. Parvo is much much much worse.


----------



## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> Does anyone know where to find current statistics concerning how many states Sendai & SDA have spread to since last year? The last I was able to find is that sometime last year it was as far south as Georgia. I'm sure it must have made it to Texas, but I haven't found anything yet.
> 
> Is this thing as prevalent as it was this time last year?


I don't believe any statistics are kept. It can be hard to track as well since pet stores/rescues may not be as forthcoming sometimes, many owners may not go to vets & just think it was a URI or just "dropped dead"

It doesn't seem to be as big of an issue this year so far, as in I am not hearing much about it in any of my rat groups. But the risk is always still there.



> I always wondered about people doing rat rescue. They often have a quarantine home or external building. However, rats keep coming in the quarantine homes, so unless there are no other rats coming in in a 3 weeks period, their quarantine is pretty much useless as the rats coming in can contaminate the rats that will be graduating from quarantine in a couple days/weeks, right?


Im not involved with rat rescue but I imagine the good ones would only take in rats when their quarantine space is open. So take in 3 rats from a single location wait the quarantine time and then accept new rats.
I also think many use foster homes for quarantine as well.

But I bet most do not do true (no airflow) quarantine. 

I think just alot of people consider it low risk. But the risk is still there and it only takes that one time for everything to do to ****. 

I quarantine all of my new rats. The new rats I bring in all come from very trusted & respected breeders but I still quarantine just in case.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I sadly rescue in Toronto, with no option of QT. I cannot even find qualified foster homes but mostly do hospice rather than adopt out rescue, as there's plenty who can take in the well and socialized rats and rehome them quickly. A few years back viruses were practically unknown in Ontario, but the local breeders have been travelling to the US and importing rats from these wretched Rat Meetups or Roundups they call them (the latest I know of was in OH on October 3rd, 2015). I got nailed with Sendai in Feb 2010, and 2 bouts of SDA in Feb 2013 (one right after the other, as I took in a rat with visible signs from another rescue who SHOULD NOT have sent her to me).

So I can advise on the virus symptoms, how it progresses, even post pics of SDA eyes and lumpy throats. Once a rat is exposed it usually shows symptoms within a week, then a week later the virus sheds that rat and the rat is immune to that particular strain of the virus. Then the secondary infections kick in and the long haul is started. The rats dying suddenly usually happens within the first week.

I haven't actually been tracking the SDA virus which is the prevalent one but have been watching it roll across the US and into Canada. There are also some other serious contagions that were discovered during the Ohio Roundup debacle. let me know if you want to know more about them.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Rugrats said:


> Yup. Parvo is much much much worse.


I'm sorry, I should have checked this before posting it.

I'm a bit confused right now and last night I was taking in too much information at once I guess. 

After checking this.........

Bordetella, also known as kennel cough affects the upper respiratory infection affecting dogs. Parvo is intestinal.

I saw a post in another thread stating that rats need to be separated from dogs when they are vaccinated for kennel cough. 

I haven't verified this at any other websites, as of yet. 

I'm sorry for causing unnecessary concern.

However, I DO KNOW this.

Kennel cough, a respiratory infection, is a common problem in animal shelters. So if anyone visits a shelter, I personally would want to know more about this. And since I'm such a sucker for strays, I'm going to look into this.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I always wondered about people doing rat rescue. They often have a quarantine home or external building. However, rats keep coming in the quarantine homes, so unless there are no other rats coming in in a 3 weeks period, their quarantine is pretty much useless as the rats coming in can contaminate the rats that will be graduating from quarantine in a couple days/weeks, right?


Also......In my experience, people involved in rescues are typically a lot more cautious about diseases, etc than city/county shelters that _can not _turn away animals. Because rescues tend to be operated by volunteers alone, space is not always available to take in more animals. If the rescue doesn't have the means or funds to treat sick animals, they are often returned to the shelter and sadly, end up getting euthanized.


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Dog parvo and Rat parvoviruses are different and not transmittable to the other species.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

What about Bordetella, 'Kennel Cough'?


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

This is from a rat health care website in the UK

*Quarantine and Other Species*
While most viruses and infections are species specific, there are a few that can be transferred between species. The main one that rat owners need to be very aware of is Kennel Cough in dogs. This can cause Bordetella in rats and without very rapid antibiotic treatment and rehydration, this can kill within a 12-24 hour period. Dogs that have recently been vaccinated against Kennel Cough can also be of great risk as the will 'shed' the infection for around 2 weeks after immunisation so it is very important to keep any dogs recently inoculated or that have come into contact with Kennel Cough away from your rats. It is also worth being a little careful when at the vets and the waiting room is full of dogs (particularly if one happens to be coughing!). Normal quarantine periods as above would apply. 


http://www.ratz.co.uk/quarantine.html


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Okay, from what I can tell, Bordetella can cause pnuemonia in rats with a compromised 'sub' imune system. I don't quite have a comprehensive understanding of what a sub imune system is, but it is part of the immune system. 

This is from the Ratguide.com

"....In rats, where severe respiratory disease or pneumonia is present, more than one organism or infection is involved. The most prevalent and naturally occurring organism in the rat that contributes to the development of pneumonia is the bacterium, Mycoplasma pulmonis. 
Other bacteria that contribute to the development of pneumonia in association with Mycoplasma pulmonis are Ciliated-Associated Respiratory (CAR) Bacillus, Corynebacterium kutscheri, Streptococcus pneumoniae, Pasturella pneumotropica, Bordetella bronchiseptica..."

http://ratguide.com/health/lower_respiratory/pneumonia.php


----------



## Rugrats (Jul 29, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> This is from a rat health care website in the UK
> 
> *Quarantine and Other Species*
> While most viruses and infections are species specific, there are a few that can be transferred between species. The main one that rat owners need to be very aware of is Kennel Cough in dogs. This can cause Bordetella in rats and without very rapid antibiotic treatment and rehydration, this can kill within a 12-24 hour period. Dogs that have recently been vaccinated against Kennel Cough can also be of great risk as the will 'shed' the infection for around 2 weeks after immunisation so it is very important to keep any dogs recently inoculated or that have come into contact with Kennel Cough away from your rats. It is also worth being a little careful when at the vets and the waiting room is full of dogs (particularly if one happens to be coughing!). Normal quarantine periods as above would apply.
> ...


That's kind of scary to think about. I adopted a shelter dog a couple months ago and she got vaccinated and walks around the rat cage sniffing them. They didn't get sick but it's scary to think they might have. I wonder if it's highly contagious or spreads more by contact/coughing?


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

http://www.criver.com/files/pdfs/infectious-agents/rm_ld_r_bordetella_bronchiseptica.aspx 

Here is the Charles River write up on Bordetella Bronchiseptica


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Well after all of this, I'm not going into a pet store or a shelter. I won't take my rat to parks where dogs are, our dogs are staying outside for 3 weeks after they get vaccinated. And I will always QUARANTINE FROM NOW ON!!!

Don't know how to get around taking my rats to the vets office! 

Thankfully, this does not seem to be something to worry about if your rats are not infected with Mycoplasma pulmonsis. But how would you know without testing? I'm just gonna' play it safe.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

According to the MSDS on B. bronchiseptica, it spreads by direct contact. It is not air-born. It does not live long outside of the host. I appears to be easily killed with disinfectants. 

Here's a link to the data sheet

https://www.msdsonline.com/resources/msds-resources/free-safety-data-sheet-index/bordetella-bronchiseptica.aspx


----------



## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

catty-ratty said:


> Well after all of this, I'm not going into a pet store or a shelter. I won't take my rat to parks where dogs are, our dogs are staying outside for 3 weeks after they get vaccinated. And I will always QUARANTINE FROM NOW ON!!!Don't know how to get around taking my rats to the vets office! Thankfully, this does not seem to be something to worry about if your rats are not infected with Mycoplasma pulmonsis. But how would you know without testing? I'm just gonna' play it safe.


All rats are infected by mycoplasma except lab rats. It is only when their immune system gets weak, or their lungs are damaged by ammonia from a dirty cage, or another infection lower their immune system...that mycoplasma can overwhelm their system and make them sick. Maybe you meant actively showing the signs of mycoplasma? I haven't read what you are referring to, so I'm not sure.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> All rats are infected by mycoplasma except lab rats.


I'm still learning about rats! This is something I didn't realize. Thank you!

That's one of my reasons for joining this forum, to learn from people like you who have so much more experience than myself.


----------



## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

So basically what you need to do is either don't go anywhere because you can pick up anything or install a sterilizer in your home to hose you down every time you come home.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Verucasdad said:


> So basically what you need to do is either don't go anywhere because you can pick up anything or install a sterilizer in your home to hose you down every time you come home.


If I want to be absolutely certain that I don't bring anything home to my rats, yes. But I would have to go even further than this. I would also have to disinfect and quarantine every person, animal or thing that comes into my house or even anywhere near my house. 

That's not realistic. 

But it doesn't mean I can't take realistic measures to protect my rats.


----------



## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

True, but fear mongering does no good. My girls have been healthy up until Esmerelda got this URI which was my fault for thinking they needed a fan to move the air in the room and I caused a draft instead. I take measures to make sure my rats are good. I visit the pet store every week to get crickets for my nephew's lizards. I am now working as an Animal Control Officer. I do what I can but I will not be paranoid at every little thing that goes on. Someone made a mistake and didn't quarantine. There is no need to put the fear in them that they screwed up so bad their rats are going to die. Be supportive and tell them to watch them. If there is ant sign of anything then go to the vet. Stop making them feel like they murdered their babies.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

What gave you the idea that I'm trying to make someone feel like they murdered their babies??

*I'm* the one who decided to forgo quarantining. I'm the one who shortly after, found out about an outbreak of SDA and Sindai virus. I'm the one that brought home two rats from a pet shop, where the possibility of them having a disease is higher. I'm the one who put them in with my other perfectly healthy rats. 

When I started this thread, it was my understanding was that this had just happened recently. I think that is plenty to be scared about. 

I didn't realize that the outbreak was last year and has since calmed down. 

I have never had rats before, so maybe I'm being hyper careful. Just because I was scared, that doesn't mean I'm trying to scare other people. I joined this forum to learn from other people with more experience so I can better care for them AND so I can find out if my fears are valid. 

If I wanted to scare people, I sure would look like a hypocrite for openly telling people that I take one of my rats with me to go shopping or that she free ranges the entire house with 2 dogs and multiple cats. 

If I was paranoid, I'd keep my rats locked up 24/7.


----------



## erose (Dec 31, 2015)

the first time i introduced a new rat to my crew (i was a very new rat owner at the time) one of my rats got extremely ill and died very quickly. my other rats did not get sick and the new baby didn't show any signs of illness. to this day i'm not sure whether or not the new rat caused it or if he was already sick. 

i've had rats for the past 6 years and that was the only negative experience i've had introducing new rats. i now live in a very small apartment and i actually can't qt because i don't have the space to do so. it would be counterproductive because the rats would still be sharing the same airspace if quarantined them here. so what do i do? do i just keep one rat because i can't quarantine new friends? when i introduce rats now i just add tetracycline to their water and let them drink that for a week. i actually added two new babies recently and everyone is fine. no sneezing or URI symptoms. i have antibiotics on hand and the ability to take them to a vet if anything happens.

you guys will probably hate me for this and say i'm an irresponsible owner. i do take good care of my rats and i love them very much. sometimes we just don't have the proper living space to carry out a proper quarantine procedure. i do know how important it is, but when i have one rat that's losing his mind because he's all alone i'd rather take the risk.


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Verucasdad said:


> Someone made a mistake and didn't quarantine. There is no need to put the fear in them that they screwed up so bad their rats are going to die. Be supportive and tell them to watch them. If there is ant sign of anything then go to the vet. Stop making them feel like they murdered their babies.


You are talking to the person who made the thread. Can we try to give a little more consideration before hitting that reply button?


Quarantine is always recommended, but rarely ever able to be implemented properly in a home setting. Doing it "properly" means going the whole way - separate airspace with its own filtration as well as a shower, change of clothes, and preferably even waiting a few hours before handling non-QT rats. It's easy to see how the average person wouldn't be able to do this, and it's really no fault of theirs. Doing it less than properly might not be any more effective than not quarantining at all.


----------



## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

Jaguar said:


> You are talking to the person who made the thread. Can we try to give a little more consideration before hitting that reply button?
> 
> 
> Quarantine is always recommended, but rarely ever able to be implemented properly in a home setting. Doing it "properly" means going the whole way - separate airspace with its own filtration as well as a shower, change of clothes, and preferably even waiting a few hours before handling non-QT rats. It's easy to see how the average person wouldn't be able to do this, and it's really no fault of theirs. Doing it less than properly might not be any more effective than not quarantining at all.


 In my post, I am asking the same. I will not point out whose post got me on this but it isn't the original person. I am also entitled to my opinion and I am also entitled to defend those who I feel are being dumped on. MY POINT is they made a mistake and this forum needs to be supportive and not negative.


----------



## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Verucasdad said:


> MY POINT is they made a mistake and this forum needs to be supportive and not negative.


The rest of the forum _is_ being supportive. But thank you for your concern.


----------

