# Why does immersion take hours?



## cccgina1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Not trying to be a smartypants, just curious. If rats are doing that to each other, it doesn't take that long. Whatever I did with my rat worked. She doesn't bite anymore. Lol she quit beating up other rats too. Maybe a stern talking to works as well.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I am unsure if you are asking a question.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

I agree. When rats are asserting their alpha status it only takes a few seconds. To me, locking yourself in a room with a rat for hours seems unnecessary. If they do something wrong. Simply give them a stern talking to. I think even the tone of your voice helps. Especially if you only use that stern voice when they do something bad. 
If you're locking yourself up with them in a room for hours. It's like punishing them for hours. They might even become confused as to what they did wrong and why you're punishing them. Some might even "freak out", displaying behavior they never would have and even becoming more aggressive towards you. 
In the wild the dominant rat asserts it dominance. The weaker rat can run away if it wants or choose to stay. When confined in a room. The rat can "try" to run away, but isn't allowed. The captive rat can only submit to your will or attack. To me, this seems cruel. 
My rat has never bit a human. The same can't be said for her behavior around other rats, but as far as humans. She really likes humans. I can't imagine what it would do to her demeanor towards humans if she was locked in a room for hours being "forced" to interact. She might grow to resent human contact. Or worse, she might become a frightened animal that only allows me to be near her out of fear. Fear of being taken back to that small room or fear of being punished. I already know what she does when "forced" to live with other rats. My girl definitely doesn't want to be confined in a small area.
I think if you can achieve the same results, without locking them in a room with you for hours. Then that's probably a better way to go. 

I'm sure there's rats that are well bonded with their owners that have never been subjected to "immersion". People have kept rats as pets for a very long time. I'm sure none of them locked themselves in a small room for 12+ hours in hopes their rats would "get it". They simply gave their pets love and attention. I'm sure their rats turned out just fine. 

It could be that people are just "over thinking" the way to properly bond with their pet. I know some people say their rats are much better after immersion. The question I'd be asking is, "Are they doing better because of immersion" OR "Are they don't better in spite of it". Do rats reach a certain point because they love their human or do they fear them? I'd rather have my rat love me. I never want her to be afraid of me.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Immersion is not to punish the rat it is to teach them you are the alpha and also to teach them they can trust you and you won't hurt them. Rat Daddy and Cagedbirdsining would probably be better at explaining this. Also I did immersion with my two newest rats and they are far more comfortable and let me play with them more then my other two that I got before learning about immersion. But it is up to you to agree with it or not at first I thought it was silly but now seeing the difference between my rats I don't think of it as silly anymore. Many people are successful with immersion and others are successful with other ways as well. As long as what ever method you use works for you and your rat I would use it. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

How quickly people forget... Not so long ago, before immersion socialization took weeks and even months. And if you dig back you will find lots of posts from people seeking help with biting rats they had for three months killing each other. You will also find every other post involving problem rats involved neutering or even spaying. And the standard for a good rat? Back then the bar was set pretty low, generally if it didn't bite humans or kill it's roommates it was a good rat. The idea of bonding with a rat in a single day simply wasn't even considered. If starting a life long friendship with an animal that starts with complete strangers and doing it in 12 hours seems like it takes too long, that's only because we've changed our world view on what too long is. Before immersion some people actually recommended leaving rats alone to fend for themselves in their cages for a week before even trying to handle them. Was this because rats were supposed to bond with the cage? Or get comfortable being on display in a wire box, in a strange place? And yes, we have successfully helped rats that had issues with other rats.

You make a good point, before immersion there were great rats and great rat owners and trainers. But they weren't leaving their rats to fend for themselves for weeks, they were actively being the pack alpha and they were doing long bonding sessions with their rats. Moreover, they were communicating with their rats and responding to their rats needs all along, and it worked back then as it still works now. Immersion theory and it's practices most likely date back to Jack Black. But without a name and set of principles the community was divided into people that got it and had great rats and people that didn't and were neutering perfectly normal rats or just giving up. I mean lets face it before the theory of gravity apples still fell to the ground, they didn't just float away when they were ripe. Immersion didn't invent something new it simply explains what has always been and creates a theory and a practice to take advantage of how rats actually think and how to communicate with them.

Another good point, in the wild rats can choose to leave and not join a pack. In captivity they don't have that choice. And you are right, you could give your rats the choice to simply leave you. The idea of giving your rats a choice whether to stay with you or go back to the wild on their own is an interesting notion. It might be well work a discussion, but I'm not sure it's ever going to become an accepted rat training technique. It might even be unlawful in some places.

As to force? Before immersion there was forced socialization, and it's nothing like immersion. Yes, you make the point that you might be starting out with a vicious and biting rat and it might take a dozen hours to fix during immersion and to get it to bond and communicate with you, but what's the alternative? Cage it individually, neuter it and if that doesn't work put it to sleep? Keep it as an exhibit animal that might get out and hurt someone? Is it really better to put down a biting rat or put it through a few hours of immersion?

As to rats that aren't being aggressive, why would you be forcing it to do anything during immersion? Basically all you are doing is engaging it in play. Amelia our most recent rat was neglected and very possibly abused for the first seven months of her life. She walked in the door terrified and alone, my daughter hugged her and stroked her and held her and in less than an hour she was running around the floor between my daughter and myself and exploring the space and getting skritches, a few hours later our big old shoulder rat rolled over and let Amelia groom her and they were chasing about playing together and when my daughter fell asleep and Fuzzy Rat was snuggling on my lap, after several hours Amelia was standing on my daughter's head looking at me to wake her up so that we could play some more. In seven month's Amelia had never had any human interaction or love before, she wasn't traumatized she was ecstatic. And that very night she snuggled up with Fuzzy Rat and slept in a fur ball with her new best rat friend. Immersion is a bonding process and for the most part it is fun and warm and rewarding for the humans and just as rewarding and liberating for the rats.

Immersed rat leave the immersion area communicating and bonded to each other, they go on to have meaningful relationships. People tend to find that their immersed rats are friendlier and happier and more affectionate and they give their immersed rats more freedom and respect and love and I'm pretty sure immersed rats are happier for it too.

As to being a good alpha, a good alpha isn't about maintaining discipline, it's all about being a good parent and creating a cohesive family. Sometimes a little discipline is required but for the most part rewards and affections works best.


Lastly, yes, I suppose someone could really screw up immersion and turn it into some kind of medieval torture session. But I doubt there are that many sadists who would do that here. It's a process of engaging your rat, not torturing it. It's a process of evaluating it's needs and responding appropriately and mostly it's a process of bonding and communicating. Read through some of the on line immersions that are posted here, and watch how they evolve. Yes some start out stressful, but then check out the results. Immersed rats become great rats and immersed rat owners become great rat trainers. Have there always been great rats and great rat trainers, of course, but if you really look into what they were doing all along it looks a great deal like immersion without the name, and the name isn't the important thing, its the bond and the communication.

With immersion we deal with lots of different rats that start out in different mind sets and with different baggage. Some were abused, others neglected others are just afraid of the great big strange human, some are friendly and inquisitive. Some immersions have started out as horror shows with the humans fighting for survival, other's with terrified rats hiding in the corner, some begin with friendly play and each is handled differently. You are not forcing your rat to do anything other than to respond to your presence and interaction naturally and then you respond to your rats needs based on what it's doing. You aren't breaking your rat or hurting your rat or stressing your rat, you are reaching out and offering your love and friendship. Immersed rats aren't robots or crushed animals, they are empowered and inquisitive and confident. They love their humans and they are loved in return. 

Can immersion theory help your rat be more accepting of a new friend? It might. If your rat loves you and is bonded to you and you are it's alpha and you personally introduce another pack or family member to it and supervise the interaction and "explain" to your rat that this is another accepted member of your pack or family you have a better chance than any other approach. Might it take half a day playing with the rats to facilitate this kind of bond? Sure it might even take a little longer. Are there other approaches out there? Absolutely. And can you just decide to raise a single rat? Again the answer is yes. 

I don't have any problem with anyone that doesn't do immersion. It's a personal choice. But I really don't like to see the process characterized as cruel or as punishment, that's what we have gotten away from. Immersion is a process of building a bond of love and trust through active bidirectional communication. I'll very much bet Mitsy never tortured or tormented her rats and they aren't rat zombies now, and there's a tread about an angry rat named Gus that was even neutered and couldn't be tamed, he's immersed and now he's a cherished family member and loves his mom. And there were other rats that did immersion that otherwise would have been neutered or put to sleep that now live happy rewarding lives with families that are blessed to have them. 

Lastly, take a look at the photos of Fuzzy Rat below, she taught me about rat communication. And yes, we are outdoors, and in the photos she was very fast and there were plenty of places for her to run away to if she wanted to, she was even a good swimmer so she could have swam away. This is what an immersed rat looks like...


Walking at heel









Just exploring and looking for food scraps people have dropped unsupervised and on her own.









Making new friends










Hanging out by the tree









Having dinner with her family and just being loved now that she's old.









NOTE: Fuzzy Rat is a trained shoulder rat, she is fully competent to be outdoors. Please don't try this with untrained rats, you will get them killed.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Almost forgot... I think rats bonding to each other might be faster because they are both rats they pretty much speak the same language. Kind of like making friends with another human that speaks English would be easier for you than becoming buddies with a bear.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Well said as per usual, Rat Daddy.

And yes, to the OP, we are not rats interacting with rats. To rats, we are a large predator attempting to bond with them. Apples to oranges.

Every rat and every owner is different and it is unfair to dismiss one method of training and even going so far as to say that it is torture. There are many different methods and this is just one that works for many people.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

I never used the word "torture". 

What I said was, "TO ME, this seem cruel". I feel I'm entitled to "my opinion". I'll continue to treat my rat with love and attention. She seems to enjoy it.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

They had said that it is not for everyone and what works for you works for you. They didn't say you had to do immersion or that not doing it was wrong. All of us here are open to everyone's opinion and don't mean to offend people in anyway. Sometimes things are taken wrong. No one had said that you were not untitled to an opinion and no one expects you to change what you think. We were all just explaining what immersion is for and what it means.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Mitsy said:


> They had said that it is not for everyone and what works for you works for you. They didn't say you had to do immersion or that not doing it was wrong. All of us here are open to everyone's opinion and don't mean to offend people in anyway. Sometimes things are taken wrong. No one had said that you were not untitled to an opinion and no one expects you to change what you think. We were all just explaining what immersion is for and what it means.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What was I suppose to get from the post just above mine. 

Here's "'EXACTLY" what is says, "Every rat and every owner is different and it is unfair to dismiss one method of training and even going so far as to say that it is torture. There are many different methods and this is just one that works for many people."

"TO ME" that seems to "suggest" that I said it was "torture"...... 

So really, What would you think if you read that? I never used the word "TORTURE". I believe it was "Rat Daddy" that did that.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I am sure that cagedbirdsining was not using the word torture to offend you and probably used it from just finishing reading Rat Daddy's post. Also they just mean not to say that immersion is bad just because you don't agree with it. Also to many people the word torture and being cruel to an animal or human are pretty well the same just torture is more serious and harmful. I know I would use the words for the same kind of thing because to me something or someone that is being treated cruelly is in some way being tortured. Like I said before no one is here to offend anyone and I am sure if they see this thread again and see that what they had said offended you they would apologize to you for it and I am sorry if this upsets you in anyways because that is not what I want to do.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Daize said:


> I never used the word "torture".
> 
> What I said was, "TO ME, this seem cruel". I feel I'm entitled to "my opinion". I'll continue to treat my rat with love and attention. She seems to enjoy it.


You are of course entitled to your opinion. Love and affection are always good methods to use, especially if you and your rat are both enjoying them.  Immersion type training is not for everyone but it does work very well for many, and for some it's the only thing that does work. Whatever you find to be successful and whatever makes you and your rat happiest is what counts. It sounds like you are doing a great job, so keep at it!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Respectfully submitted.....

Snip quote from the original remark: 

"It's like punishing them for hours."

Paraphrased by cagedbirdsinging as:

"torture"

I do believe this is about how I read your the original remark too Daize. I was also reading punishing for hours as implying torture. 

If this isn't what you meant please feel free to clarify your remark. I often use the wrong choice of words and have made my fair share of apologies. If you actually meant torture, please don't argue semantics. It's your opinion and you have every right to defend it.

But if torture is what you were implying I also have a right to my opinion and I'm happy to defend the theory, the practice and all of the great people and rats that went through it...

I've taken my rats on trips where we left the house Thursday morning and came back Sunday evening, and they rode in the car, and walked through the woods, and swam at the beach and roamed the cabin attended all night parties and rode on shoulder for four days straight. And as the photos I posted taken on one such long weekend show Fuzzy Rat wasn't being tortured or punished, she was having the time of her life! I don't know about anyone else's rats but our rats enjoy our company and we enjoy theirs. She had every opportunity to run away and instead she went about meeting and greeting strangers and walking around with us and swimming. 

Daize, it's often harder for the humans doing immersion than it is for the rats. It's hard to see your beloved rat afraid of you, or attacking you or ignoring you. Sometimes it's difficult to stay engaged with an animal that doesn't immediately return your affection or appreciate your intentions. It really is common for people to feel that they are being cruel when they start out with immersion, but in all reality they are not. Cruel would be to leave their rats locked in their cages killing each other or living alone and snapping at the hand that feeds them. 

Some of the humans who have done immersion have taken great personal risks and endured hours of rat attacks in order to save their rats from being put down. They felt and shared their rats confusion and fear during the first phases of immersion and suffered through sitting on a cold hard floor for hours until they finally got through to their rats. I can think of one case where a person actually sent me photos of his hand torn up and bleeding before immersion, in fact his rat was biting him for three months and rather than put his rat down he engaged his vicious rat in immersion for a few hours and he wrote me the very next day that he had a new very best friend. I actually told him immersion might be too dangerous to even attempt, but he put his own well being at risk to save his rat. 

And what of the immersed rats afterwards? Ask their owners. Most live happily with other rats now. Most have owners that they love and that love them. Most are still intact. Most move on to learn their names and to learn their commands and free range around their homes for hours every day. Immersed rats go on to lead great lives and their owners are especially proud of them. I'm pretty sure I haven't read a single thread that starts with "immersion screwed up my wonderful rat" yet. To be entirely fair, if you had a rat that was affectionate and getting along fine with it's roomies you probably wouldn't be doing immersion in the first place, but even if you did, immersion with a happy well socialized rat it would be like several hours of play time, why would you think your rat would get stressed out by playing with you? To be honest, if I took my rats and locked myself in a room with them for a dozen hours they would be happy for all of the attention. I wish I could dedicate more time to them. 

I never set out to introduce immersion, I just helped a few folks on line, but other folks lurking in the background tried it for themselves and it fixed their rats too and it caught on despite my being too lazy to write the guide for a long time. Immersion worked before it even had a name. It was already a success story before the guide was written. It's not my opinion, its a fact; immersion has saved rat lives and it's produced some awesome rat on human relationships and it's stopped rats from fighting and killing each other. Ratclaws and I collaborated on the guide not out of vanity, but rather out of popular demand. And the success stories that are posted there and elsewhere on this forum aren't solicited, they are genuine success stories by people that love their rats as much as you do.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but for those of us who have done immersions and for all of the rats that are leading great lives now because of immersion calling us cruel and immersion a punishment feels very unfair. Immersion is an accomplishment, it's done out of kindness and affection and the success stories speak for themselves. Speaking for myself, I'm proud of the rat that taught me the basics for immersion and the rats I've immersed and I'm proud for the other folks and rats that have accomplished it.

Now from what I understand your rat doesn't like to live with other rats, immersion theory would have it that she hasn't been properly socialized into a well run pack with a single human alpha in charge. Some folks might even think that is cruel and that living a solitary life is a punishment. I'm NOT suggesting it is, I'm just making the point that sometimes the opinions we have might be hurtful to others.

Seriously, if you want your rat to live a happier life with rat friends as well as being with humans I'll be happy to help you, you can do immersion and immersion introductions in a great big space if you want to and don't mind the exercise and I'm sure you wouldn't be cruel nor do I believe that no matter how long it took, you wouldn't make it all about punishing your rat. In fact it's more likely to be loads of fun, as your rat already loves and trusts you. But the choice is yours, and in "my opinion" you are free to do as you please without my criticism either way.

All the best to you and your rats.


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Apparently you took that one sentence out of context. 

What I said was, "If you're locking yourself up with them in a room for hours. It's like punishing them for hours. They might even become confused as to what they did wrong and why you're punishing them. Some might even "freak out", displaying behavior they never would have and even becoming more aggressive towards you."

If you just "snip quote" that one small sentence "It's like punishing them for hours"..... See the difference. You have to read all of it. 

So to clarify. By putting them onto a situation that makes them uncomfortable/nervous/frightened when they've done nothing wrong. The rat might feel like it's being punished. In immersion the sessions last for "hours". I never said anyone was inflicting pain on them. I said "locking yourself up with them for hours". The confinement is what I was referring to as the punishment. 

Then I said, "In the wild the dominant rat asserts it dominance. The weaker rat can run away if it wants or choose to stay. When confined in a room. The rat can "try" to run away, but isn't allowed. The captive rat can only submit to your will or attack." 

In this instance. The rat is confined to a small room. It can't run away if it feels threatened. It can't hide to feel safe. It's only choice is to submit or attack. If the rat has done nothing wrong, why should it be forced into such a situation. If it wants to return to it's cage, where it feels safe, it should be allowed to. To keep it in a small room and force it to submit. To me, this seems cruel. I"m not suggesting releasing the domestic rat back into the wild. I'm saying if it's frightened. It should be allowed to returned to it's cage, if that's where it feels safe. 

This refers strictly to "MY" rat. 
"My rat has never bit a human. The same can't be said for her behavior around other rats, but as far as humans. She really likes humans. I can't imagine what it would do to her demeanor towards humans if she was locked in a room for hours being "forced" to interact. She might grow to resent human contact. Or worse, she might become a frightened animal that only allows me to be near her out of fear. Fear of being taken back to that small room or fear of being punished. I already know what she does when "forced" to live with other rats. My girl definitely doesn't want to be confined in a small area."

My rat would have, what I would call, "panic attacks". When I first got her. She didn't feel comfortable out of her cage for more than 10 minutes at a time. I wanted to hold her more, but her breathing got really fast and her heart felt like it was about to burst, it was beating so fast. I'd put her back in her cage and she'd go back to normal. She'd come back up to me in a minute or so and I'd pet her. Then I'd hold her for a couple more minutes and then let her go back to her cage. If I tried to "keep her out for HOURS". It probably would have very negative impact on her demeanor. She might even have become aggressive. I allowed her to got back to her cage and "feel safe". I gave her what she wanted/needed. Now she comes out all the time on her own. She's comfortable being out of her cage. Had I forced her in the beginning. She wouldn't be the wonderful rat she is now. She'd probably be a frightened animal that wants nothing to do with humans. 

Then there's this line.
"I think if you can achieve the same results, without locking them in a room with you for hours. Then that's probably a better way to go."
Note I said, "I THINK". Which is me giving me my opinion. I do believe that if you can bond with your rat without causing undo stress, then that's the best way to go. 

This part is self explanatory.
" I'm sure there's rats that are well bonded with their owners that have never been subjected to "immersion". People have kept rats as pets for a very long time. I'm sure none of them locked themselves in a small room for 12+ hours in hopes their rats would "get it". They simply gave their pets love and attention. I'm sure their rats turned out just fine."

Then the last part. 
"It could be that people are just "over thinking" the way to properly bond with their pet. I know some people say their rats are much better after immersion. The question I'd be asking is, "Are they doing better because of immersion" OR "Are they don't better in spite of it". Do rats reach a certain point because they love their human or do they fear them?"

Could people be "over thinking" the bonding process? It could be. It could be as simple as some rats bond more easily than others. Also some people have had good results with immersion and other's haven't. Could it be that those that has good results would have had the same results "without" immersion. Were some rats going to bond easily regardless of the method used? What ever method was used will be the one credited for any change in the behavior of the rat. So, I'd ask, was it because of or in spite of? Maybe some rats just mature to a point and their temperaments change. 

Last sentence is 100% true.
"I'd rather have my rat love me. I never want her to be afraid of me."
That's what's important to me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Without the implication of torture or cruelty, I like your reply, it's cogent and well thought out and makes for a reasonable basis for discussion. 

So I'll reply in no specific order other than what comes to mind at 2:30 AM...

When I first introduced immersion I did so only to help people with severe problems. It was different and radical and basically my propitiatory approach. The rats we fixed first were all failures of trust training and forced socialization. Some had been with their owners for over three months. All were either biting their humans or harming their cage mates. Some were on death row. And generally we fixed them in a few days, some overnight. Before the guide was published the links to these threads were hotly sought after and shared around the forum.

It actually took quite a while before people started trying immersion on normal rats as I had intended it, but the results were just as spectacular, producing proud owners, well adjusted well bonded happy rats and orderly packs overnight. People did immersion, not because I recommended it, but because it worked for other people. 

The concept of a single session was based on the failure of short sessions. People would take a rat out of it's cage and it would bite them and they would put it back and repeat the procedure day after day. The only thing the rat learned was bite their human in order to go back to their cage. It also taught the rat that it was in charge and that it should beat it's roommates into submission too. When biting and aggression work rats keep doing it. The long single session put an abrupt end to this behavior. Rats are smart and they learn to adapt when something stops working. Moreover once rats saw their humans in a new light of being alphas they began respecting them and loving them. 

Second misconception is that immersed rats are afraid of their owners. Nothing is further from the truth, in fact it's 100% backwards. When you bring home a new rat, it very well might be afraid of you. And if you do nothing about it, it's likely to stay afraid of you no matter how long you lock it in a cage. Rats don't learn to trust people through osmosis! They learn to trust people through hands on contact. Now you did it in multiple sessions, immersion does in in one, but the theory remains exactly the same. Without contact there's no progress. The first big change in your rats during immersion is when they stop being afraid of you. That's when they start approaching you looking for treats or skritches or hugs or they even nap on you. Read the on line immersions and watch for it. You can actually spot precisely when it happens. The rat stops running away and hiding and starts engaging his human and opens up the dialogue. The human accepts the rats affection and returns it and welcomes the new rat into the pack. 

As to the cage being a rats home or safe place, I've never seen any evidence of that being true. When we got our new cage I left the old one where it was, door open for months. My rats each went back to their old cage exactly once. They looked around and found no food dish or water and they hopped right back out and never looked back again. After living all of her life in that old cage it wasn't even worth taking a second look back for her. Secondly I've allowed my rats go dig their own burrows, Amelia pretty much finished hers in less than a half an hour and it was a deep burrow under a big rock and it didn't look anything like a cage, it was cool damp dark and safe. As to Fuzzy Rats burrow, she was already disabled and it didn't amount to much, but after hanging out in hers for about half an hour she came out and started weebling back home. Cages barely resemble real rats nests and even when a rat digs a real nest, it doesn't get all attached to it. Your rat was mostly just relaxing because it was off your hands, not because it had a special relationship with it's cage. Rats bond with people or other rats not real estate. As a rat can dig a burrow in minutes, I have to assume that rats may have several burrows all around their territories to provide for a quick disappearance. I will grant you that our rats see the car or the house as a safe place, but that's more like a home range than a burrow. And our rats were just as at home at the cabin in the mountains or my dad's house or for that matter anyplace they were at overnight. As long as we were there they moved right in.

So by engaging and handling your rat and letting it go back into the cage and then letting it come back to you and handling it some more you were engaging your rat, you were communicating with it, you were giving it space as it needed it and you were engaging it again... sound familiar? The cage was your confined space. There's nothing magical about bathrooms. I actually don't like working with cages because they are too cramped and because immersion areas give both rat and human more room to maneuver. You are actually more likely to corner a rat into a tight spot in a cage than in a bathroom or hallway or bedroom and get your fingers into a place you can't get them out of fast enough if your rats is violent or aggressive. Immersion areas a chosen because they are large enough for interaction, not because they are small and cramped. If we wanted small and cramped, we'd just reach into the cage and do it there.

So no, people would not have had the same results without immersion in some cases. In other cases, yes but it most likely would have taken a lot longer and way more things could have gone wrong like failing to make a good alpha bond. And yes, people have been socializing rats long before immersion, but lots of rats got neutered needlessly and Craigs List is full of rats that didn't get properly socialized. And most strikingly it's the people that have been doing rats successfully for years that recognized their own techniques in immersion and were among the first supporters of the practice. It turns out that most successful rat owners never locked their rats in cages for weeks to acclimate, and they did long sessions and they actively engaged their new rats and some people have been communicating with their rats for years. History tends to indicate several cases where lonely old ladies had relationships with wild rats and claimed to communicate with them. They were burned as witches and their rats were called their familiars all the way back to the 1300's when rats first appeared in Northern Europe. The various elements of immersion have been around since Jack Black or even before. Like gravity was around before Isaac Newton the elements of immersion were around before I assembled the theory. 

Lastly would immersion have hurt your rat? No, I don't think so. I honestly believe you would have handled it with compassion and finesse. I don't think you would have rushed it or forced your rat to do anything it didn't want to do. I think you would have given it a little more space because it needed it, but over the course of a few hours your rat would have stopped being afraid of you and you would have bonded. I think it would have been and gone exactly the way your method did, only in fast forward. Well maybe not in fast forward, but if you compress all of time you spent socializing your rat into one session, that's about how long it might have taken you, maybe quicker, but definitely not longer.

Before immersion there was a practice known as forced socialization, honestly it usually worked better than trust training but it was based on an entirely different theory. Every point of your argument might have been valid against forced socialization. But immersion is the exact opposite of forced socialization. Immersion is not about force, it's about opening a dialogue and building communication with an intelligent and emotional animal. And the object of the exercise is to build a bond of affection, respect and love and to eliminate fear from the relationship. Yes, with biting rats it sometimes involves aggression to stop aggression, but when you are socializing a biting rat you are taking extreme measures to save your rats life. Immersion can be very delicate and finessefull with timid rats, or it can be all out war with nasty alpha wanna-be's, for some rats its playful and fun from start to finish. But you never wind up with a rat that's afraid of you, respectful and loving yes, afraid no. 

So to your final point "I'd rather have my rat love me. I never want her to be afraid of me." that's exactly why we do immersion!

This is our big girl having dinner with us and haphazardly stealing our food... does she look afraid to you?


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I think Daize what you mean is that you think it is unfair to the rat to not be able to hide from you when it is scared. But in most situations when the rat hides that is when the human gets bit because you are trying to get it out of the small space it is hiding in and out in the open so you can see it, but the rat gets scared and bites. I think what you are missing is if the rat is showing that it is stressed, acting strange or breathing heavily. We do put the rat back to the cage so it can calm down and relax. We do not force it to sit there in the room and panic that way. Also we are being open to your opinions and are not forcing immersion onto you but we are more then less trying to explain immersion to you in away so you do not think about it as being cruel to your animal.

Also which ever way of bonding with your rat worked then stick with it, When i first heard of immersion I thought the same way you did but once I did it I didn't see any signs of my rat panicking or being stressed I did it on my bed so their was blankets the rat could hide under or play in if it wanted to but after like half an hour the rat came up to me and curled up and fell asleep next to me on my pillow. Again which ever way works for you then use it don't feel like you should switch what you are doing just because of what we are saying but what I am asking is please don't put something down before trying it or at lest reading about people doing immersion. I will be one to admit I have seen some people try immersion and fail at it and scare their rat but only because they kept it in their hands and never let it down or away from them to breath and relax. I think for immersion to be cruel in anyway emotional or physical it starts with the person who is doing it not the whole method it's self.


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## Hephaestion (Jan 27, 2013)

I can understand one being sceptical of the new idea of immersion, particularly considering that there have been other methods to socialise rats around for years. Immersion is a method which is particularly unique to this forum. I think there is a danger in a technique acquiring the status of a panacea as the theory becomes somewhat moot, i.e., it describes nothing by virtue of it describing everything. But these are 'academic' concerns. I think it vital to respectfully question ideas, new and old.

The proof ultimately lies in the proverbial pudding and there are countless tales of the success of immersion to be found in this forum, my own included. Could many of these rats have been successfully socialised without immersion? The truth is they probably could, cheerio after cheerio, unsatisfying rat-human encounter after encounter or indeed immediately (some rats just like hoomins!).

I don't think immersion is in any way cruel in terms of its description here, but cruelty ultimately depends on the methods and attitude of the owner. In a bizarre way, not addressing the socialisation of pet rats is a manner of cruelty as it deprives them of an exciting life which is dependent on our being able to 'easily' interact with them. Immersion is one such way to do this and to do it quickly.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Of course Mitsy is correct, it's a communication process and everyone's style alter's the procedure. And no two rats go through immersion exactly the same way. 

Most people that do immersion need to be encouraged to interact and keep hands on when their rat becomes aggressive or withdrawn. But I suppose there could be too much in your face hands on. When a rat is preening and thinking, I usually never disturb it. If it's roaming and exploring, I give it free range and try to coax it to me. If it looks super stressed I can lay back for a while and relax a little myself. But you do have to keep the action moving along. Rather than being too aggressive, the number one early immersion comment goes something like "So I've been sitting here for three hours and my rat is still ignoring me." So at that point I'm telling people to engage. Get in the rat's face and get it's attention. People that do immersion love their rats and usually try to be too laid back rather than too hands on. 

We use the term aggressive engagement not to overwhelm the poor animal but to get it to respond and adapt. You need the rat to be thinking about you and to try to understand your behavior. You are acting like an alpha rat, you are doing exactly what it's pre-programmed to expect when joining a pack. You are trying to get your rat to have a light bulb moment and realize "the human is talking to me!" 

Sure when you go into immersion the rat thinks it knows who you are. You are the enemy or you are a predator, or a subordinate, or you are the food machine. But generally it doesn't think of you as being it's alpha, intelligent or even sentient. It certainly doesn't realize you are capable of meaningful communication. But by acting like an alpha rat you are challenging it's preconception of you. 

After a while the rat starts thinking "this looks familiar". Then it tries to engage you and low and behold it gets a treat or a skritch or a hug. Now your rat starts thinking this is a good thing and tests the waters again and gets rewarded for it's courage again. It might run in a little circle and you follow. And again it's thinking you are responding to it. Finally it's going to do something completely crazy, it's just got to know if you are for real. It's going to climb up on you and see what happens and again your respond with affection and play. And finally it's going to try to tell you it wants to join your family. It might roll over on it's back for skritches, or it might start preening you or if you don't get it it might curl up on you and close it's eyes. It's telling you in no uncertain terms that it wants to be your friend and be part of your family. It expects you to snuggle down with it and show it affection. Some people have even screwed up at this point thinking "my rat is tired so I'll put it back in the cage"... Your rat is showing you absolute submission and affection and you are dumping it into it's cage. That's about the worst thing you can do. At this point engagement means curling up with your new friend and settling in for a snooze or a snuggle fest.

Can you take breaks? Sure. Do you give your rat space during immersion? Again yes. But the problem in explaining immersion is that people are too prone to take too many breaks or take breaks at the wrong time or give up before they achieve their goals and make meaningful contact or give their rat too much space. 

I suppose the worst case failure is when the human quits or gives up before they make any progress. So you spent two hours scaring your rat, then you dumped him back into his cage. It's learned that for no good reason you dragged it out of it's cage and harassed it. It withdrew or it attacked you and you put it back in it's cage. So the next time you try to make contact, it's going to try the exact same thing. The next time it's going to try even harder and longer to resist change. And this is where you slip off the immersion platform and into the old forced socialization model. You're just beating your rat into submission by harassing it over and over again and never really getting through to meaningful communication. 

If you go back to Gus's on line immersion... Gus was a problem rat that had even been neutered. He had a life time of experience with his family and I'm sure he never established a meaningful and healthy relationship with his humans and was acting out and confused. It turned into a very long and very difficult immersion for Gus to rethink his entire life and give his human another chance. But eventually he did and he's living the good life now with a human that absolutely loves him. 

Mitsy's technique was nice and personal for her, she chose her comfy place, a bed. During a long immersion this doesn't bode well for the sheets, but she took the risk. She provided easily accessible soft hiding places where she could easily get to her rat with the blankets. She engaged her rat in a friendly playful way and it almost immediately realized what was going on and rather than panic, it knew exactly how to respond. It offered her affection and submission like a good new pack member should and it was rewarded by affection and acceptance in return. As soon as that happened contact was made, communication took place and the bond was forged and fear was over. In Mitsy's home life makes sense to her immersed rats. Mitsy is the big loving alpha and they are her family. She protects them and cares for them and they love her and trust her. This is exactly how immersion should go! 

So why do we stress the 'long' session. Because not all immersions go as well or as quickly. When you pick up a rat from a pet store you don't know how it was treated. Perhaps it was neglected or it was used in a few rounds of "tease the snakes" or "toss the rat" games. This kind of a rat is going to have really big issues with humans and is going to be hard to engage. If everyone prepares for a long session they will be pleased when it goes quickly and they will have plenty of time for snuggling and bonding. If people only block out two hours for an immersion chances are good that they might fail and when they fail the next try will be harder. So the more time you allocate the better your chances get. If you are already good with understanding your rats and you pick a friendly rat you might do an immersion that only takes an hour or two. But why risk your success in the planning phase?

Immersion isn't trust training, although it builds trust and it isn't forced socialization although sometimes it involves the human to act very assertively. Both of these methods don't take into account your rats role in the interaction or bi-directional communication. They don't recognize the rat as an intelligent and emotional being. That's why different immersions work differently. The human is constantly making judgment calls on what to do next and how to react to their rat within the general guide lines. If you need to put your rat back in it's cage for a few minutes for health reasons, it's OK. As long as you continue as soon as your rat is up to it again.


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## RattieLove* (May 1, 2013)

Wow, I've never seen an argument like this on the forum. I understand everyone's trying to be professional about it but still lol

I'd just like to add in something. I was a huge skeptic of immersion when I first learned about it. I thought the exact same things as Daize. I thought "well my rats already love me and I didnt do that it seems so pointless and cruel". But you have no idea how wrong that was, for me at least. After acquiring a new rat who had a not so great past and knowing she'd need to be socialized well, I thought, hey, I'll try it. She went from not even looking at me and sitting as far away from me as possible to sleeping in my shirt against my chest and eating in my hands within 5 hours. She accepted me as her own and I could feel it. I don't think its fair to judge immersion without any experience in it because you really dont understand it until you've tried it. But I do respect you for having and sharing your opinion. 

Its honestly not anywhere close to cruel though, but its not the only way for socialization either. Like you said, you have your own way. You dont like it, thats not a big deal. A rat will adapt to you either way. And this is one way of doing so. You may not think its "necessary" but a lot of other people do. Kairi became my most loving rat in a few hours of immersion compared to my other 2 girls who I had for months that I just gave love and attention to and didn't trust me nearly as much at the time. Its all based on you and your experiences. I think its best if everyone just stops going back and forth about it. Everyones different right? Immersion isn't the only way of socialization but it is still one and an effective, humane way at that. Just my thoughts.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

RattieLove* said:


> Wow, I've never seen an argument like this on the forum. I understand everyone's trying to be professional about it but still lol
> 
> I'd just like to add in something. I was a huge skeptic of immersion when I first learned about it. I thought the exact same things as Daize. I thought "well my rats already love me and I didnt do that it seems so pointless and cruel". But you have no idea how wrong that was, for me at least. After acquiring a new rat who had a not so great past and knowing she'd need to be socialized well, I thought, hey, I'll try it. She went from not even looking at me and sitting as far away from me as possible to sleeping in my shirt against my chest and eating in my hands within 5 hours. She accepted me as her own and I could feel it. I don't think its fair to judge immersion without any experience in it because you really dont understand it until you've tried it. But I do respect you for having and sharing your opinion.
> 
> Its honestly not anywhere close to cruel though, but its not the only way for socialization either. Like you said, you have your own way. You dont like it, thats not a big deal. A rat will adapt to you either way. And this is one way of doing so. You may not think its "necessary" but a lot of other people do. Kairi became my most loving rat in a few hours of immersion compared to my other 2 girls who I had for months that I just gave love and attention to and didn't trust me nearly as much at the time. Its all based on you and your experiences. I think its best if everyone just stops going back and forth about it. Everyones different right? Immersion isn't the only way of socialization but it is still one and an effective, humane way at that. Just my thoughts.


I don't think it's an argument just more us trying to get our point across that immersion is not cruel. I understand that there is more then one way I have said it sense the beginning what ever way daize is using to bond with her rats is working for her then she should do it. But I think what we all wanted her to understand that immersion is not cruel and that she should give it a chance before putting it down, and I agree the back and forth should stop but we all just wanted to share the same point that immersion is not cruel at all. Anyways I am sorry if I offended or upset any body. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Daize*


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## RattieLove* (May 1, 2013)

Also, A rat will be afraid of you no matter what. You cant stop that from happening. Its afraid of you until it is familiarized with you and accepts you. No matter what kind of socialization you use. Humans are a giant freak to rats. Until they accept these humans. That is the point of immersion. You may think the whole process is over thought and unnecessary but there is a science behind everything and rat socialization is included in that. Bottom line, Immersion works and its not punishment.


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## cccgina1 (Nov 11, 2012)

When my rats were little, they played on my bed for hours. So was I immersing with them? They're nice rats, don't bite (except the one problem that's now gone). They are loose in the room pretty much 24/7, living happy and making nests. They come over and say hi, crawl on me, in fact this morning I was cleaning their mess off the floor and baby rattie poked out if a drawer and tapped me on the shoulder. Omg, so cute.... Soon they all came over to say hi. I don't know that I need to take them one by one in the bathroom for hours. I'm not saying it doesn't work. But maybe not every rat needs it...? 

I'm certainly no rat expert, but I think my rats are pretty happy. They share food with me, meaning if in have something they have no problem coming over to share with me. I'm not going to make any of them shoulder rats because I'm not sure they're right for it. Baby rattie would probably be the best, it not worth getting her scared or hurt to find out. I've also taken them in the bathroom when I'm taking a bath, they climb on me and have fun. Baby rattie falls in every time. I just bought them a baby bathtub to see if they want to use it. Lol I hope they like it! 


Anyway, I kind of lost my point. I guess it's along the lines of, are my rats immersed already or do I have to lock them up with me one on one? A couple of them are shy, always have been. I just accept them and don't push it, they come around every once in a while. I don't know if immersion would help or make them worse. I can see it working for aggressive rats though. 



Sorry for the ramble...


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Not all rats need to go through immersion at all your rats seem to have a really good bond with you to be able to come to you when they want and get attention when they want I don't think immersion is needed with your shy rats maybe just a little more one on one time with them when you are playing with them. Also baby rat sounds adorable haha and in away the way you bonded with your rats was immersion because you were with them for long periods of times but not all at once. Immersion doesn't always have to be all at once but for long periods of time enough to make progress with them and not just be at the same stage you were before. 


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Also you don't have to do immersion with every rat. If your rats bond to you in a different way that's great but for others that want a quick bond or a certain way to do things to make a bond with their rat or a troubled rat then immersion would be best for them it's not for everyone.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Before Isaac Newton proposed the theory of gravity apples fell on people all of the time, they didn't just float away into space. Before immersion was a theory people bonded with their rats by spending long hours with them and playing and learning to understand them and teaching them. cccgina1, if what you did with some of your rats involved long hours of interaction that created a bond between you and them, and they love and respect you as their alpha then yes you did immerse those rats. If you have rats that still don't trust you or are unnaturally shy, spending more time with them will most certainly help. Whether you do a full blown immersion or more guided play sessions is up to you. Play therapy pretty much has the same goals as immersion to stay engaged with your rat and to build trust and communication through interaction but you do it on a daily basis and you try to make your sessions as long as possible. Basically it assumes that you have already a meaningful relationship with your rats to build on. They already like you and more or less aren't afraid of you, they just haven't fully bonded with you yet. 

It really is common for immersion to be followed up by more successes and breakthroughs in the days following the big event. In once case the final big break through actually happened a few days after the immersion. Yes the rat was sleeping on his human during immersion and he had stopped biting and the human thought that was it, but it wasn't until three days later after additional daily play sessions, that her rat became the snuggler that she always wanted. Immersion stopped the biting and it opened the dialogue but trust and communication took additional play sessions to finally seal the bond.

So it's your call, but I'd likely try to engage your shy rats in daily extended play sessions first. It sounds like you are already doing pretty well with them... If you hit a snag immersion won't do any harm as its basically a very long play session in your case and your rats should actually appreciate the time with you. In an interesting twist of reason, if your rats really would be upset by spending a half day hanging out with you... then you do most likely have a problem you need to address.

Best luck.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Daize said:


> I agree. When rats are asserting their alpha status it only takes a few seconds. To me, locking yourself in a room with a rat for hours seems unnecessary. If they do something wrong. Simply give them a stern talking to. I think even the tone of your voice helps. Especially if you only use that stern voice when they do something bad.
> If you're locking yourself up with them in a room for hours. It's like punishing them for hours. They might even become confused as to what they did wrong and why you're punishing them. Some might even "freak out", displaying behavior they never would have and even becoming more aggressive towards you.
> In the wild the dominant rat asserts it dominance. The weaker rat can run away if it wants or choose to stay. When confined in a room. The rat can "try" to run away, but isn't allowed. The captive rat can only submit to your will or attack. To me, this seems cruel.
> My rat has never bit a human. The same can't be said for her behavior around other rats, but as far as humans. She really likes humans. I can't imagine what it would do to her demeanor towards humans if she was locked in a room for hours being "forced" to interact. She might grow to resent human contact. Or worse, she might become a frightened animal that only allows me to be near her out of fear. Fear of being taken back to that small room or fear of being punished. I already know what she does when "forced" to live with other rats. My girl definitely doesn't want to be confined in a small area.
> ...


After reading this post particularly, the two following things strike me:

1) You may be someone who has never actually tried Immersion at all
2) You do not fully understand the process of Immersion and what it means

As others have said, of course with new techniques and theories there is likely to be a backlash and criticism. I cannot blame you for being this way either, as the methods you employed personally seemed to suit your rats. However, please do not think of Immersion in the way in which you have conceptualised it. The way you seem to have visualised the process is actually more akin to Forced Socialisation, which really gives the rat no choice than to be on your person, to forcefully adjust. But in no way is that even cruel, as it is more like a way to allow your rat to adapt by your terms. In a sense, it may be somewhat forceful but it's also still harmless.

Immersion is not built around fear. I do not know where you have contrived this from but it is simply not true. It is built around a mutually trusting bond between yourself and your rat, but by allowing them to use their superior intellect to suss out the situation and to understand that we, as humans, are not scary. We are not monsters. We are loving members of the pack, and all are welcome and appreciated. The one thing that you stated in this quote which made me question what your view is, is the following:

*"In the wild the dominant rat asserts it dominance. The weaker rat can run away if it wants or choose to stay. When confined in a room. The rat can "try" to run away, but isn't allowed. The captive rat can only submit to your will or attack. To me, this seems cruel."
*
You are forgetting one vital piece of information here. Fancy rats, are not wild rats. They are domesticated animals, and as such should be developed to a point where they can be on a mutually trusting level with humans. Why would you purchase a pet, to let it run away? Yes, a rat is an animal and it has a free spirit, but it's purpose is to be a pet. So why not let it be the best pet it can be? The relationship should be mutually beneficial and compromise and development should exist on both sides of the spectrum. That means both animal and human. During Immersion, you are essentially providing it with all of the information and experience it needs to learn that you are not going to harm it, and that you are a caring leader. I have never understood of the idea that people treat their pets with special consideration, by babying them too much and by not allowing them to reach their full potential by allowing them to carry out behaviours which will reinforce their dominance. They are a pet, and they should live a life that complements being one. They are not an animal to be kept in a cage and allowed to take control of your environment. Rats are a lot different in this respect, in that given the right circumstances and socialisation they actually have their lives enriched by learning from us as humans, just like dogs.

Another way I tend to think about it, is like how Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer goes about things. In some respects, Immersion employs similar techniques. If you have not seen the show, basically he goes to dog owner's houses and stops their dogs from being too dominant. Most of the time, they think they are the alpha and the owners let them do what they want, when they want. But most of the time, this leads to bad behaviour and the animal actually asserting it's dominance using aggression, by biting or growling. Cesar gets the dogs to be submissive to the owner and in the end, it fixes the whole pack, humans included. Rats can be seen in the same way, especially with rats who are nervous and skittish. A rat that bites, that is put back immediately afterwards and not dealt with is never going to learn that this is the wrong way to act. Yes, NATURALLY rats act this way with outsiders in the wild but this should not be their first reaction.

Immersion takes a longer time with really messed up, or skittish rats. It does not make them more afraid, or fearful. It teaches them (and quickly might I add) that we as their owners are responding to their needs and as such, they should also respond to ours. As intelligent beings, they deserve this much.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Also, something I forgot to add is that you said your rats have never bitten. I can understand why you should think that Immersion is totally unnecessary if your rats have never even tried to display any aggressive behaviour towards you and that they bonded to you naturally. However, when you have had a rat that has been skittish, scared and has bitten for no other real reason than the fact that it is afraid because it does not understand you are here only to love it, then you will see why it can be a very impressive and useful method for socialising rats. I have experienced this myself with my girlfriend's rat Hazel, who was previously my own. All of these behaviours she expressed were not down to any kind of punishment, or pain or anything. They were the product of a naturally skittish temperament and the pot luck of pet shop breeding. It's like a pick and mix with rats; some are naturally accepting and nice and others need some work to make them realise you're just there to support them and bond with them.

I will give two examples of rats I own/ed to demonstrate this.

Hazel: From a very young age, despite attempted Trust Training and Forced Socialisation was incredibly skittish and untrustworthy. Jumped at every noise, squeaked when picked up gently and coaxed with treats (over a long period of time as many suggest), bared her teeth many times out of pure fear of what she didn't understand was just someone trying to love her. After a period of 6 months of this process, and by adjusting my behaviour to help her out (showing my hands before picking up, stroking her gently, putting her back when stressed), this climaxed in me receiving a hard, clamped down bite on my finger. This was despite me doing things "her way" as you would likely suggest; that is to react to her way immediately when she wants something, aka in my eyes (not your words) babying her. This did not work. She ended up being taken on by my girlfriend who had the time necessary to work with her. After a few Immersion sessions, she's now amazingly able to be picked up and stroked, and even BOGGLES when being skritched. The difference in treatment between me and my gf was the method of socialisation and the time given towards helping her (I was in my most intensive period of university).

Ellie: Had her from the same pet shop. She had to be alone because of female introduction aggression due to her young age. From the get go she was much calmer and relaxed, but still skittish and pooped on day one/two of having her. I had her out alone, for over 7 hours on the first day and for hours alone within the first week. Ever since, she's always been the most attached to me and comes straight to ME when she's out. She clearly values our bond the most and this is likely a mixture of her temperament naturally and the Immersion I did with her at the start of our pet/owner relationship.


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