# Snake owners getting a bad reputation... (About feeder rodents)



## Xerneas

First off before I say anything else I would like to mention that I do not own a snake and don't plan to for a while. I already own a lot of pets and don't need any more. However, I am a lover of reptiles and own some other herps besides snakes and spend a lot of time talking to snake owners and lurking on snake forums and would love to own a snake for myself one day. However, I also own rats and have a passion for them just as big as my passion for herps and the two communities can obviously be a little "conflicted". I often get bothered seeing the negative attitude that rodent owners give towards people who own snakes and I would like to make a calm statement and try to clear up some misconceptions so maybe people can be a little more educated. I don't mean to sound like a know it all at all and I am not trying to argue and fully respect other opinions on this, but as I get peeved sometimes I want to express _my_ opinion.

To start off I want to point out that it's recommended to feed frozen rodents over live. A lot of snakes are more than willing to take frozen rodents. Rodents are fully capable of defending themselves and causing harm to snakes and by all means if a snake is willing to take F/T (frozen and thawed rodents) it should be done. F/T rodents are culled very humanely and painlessly usually by using CO2. Most reputable places that sell feeder rodents also give them lives that are much better than the cows people eat at McDonalds do. They are given fresh bedding, high quality food and clean water and culled painlessly. A lot of the beef that humans eat are cooped up in tiny stalls for their entire lives and pumped full of artificial hormones but yet people seem to have more concern for fluffy and cute things that have wonderful lives and feel no pain during their time. Some snakes will not accept frozen rodents but I'll get to that in another point.

My next point is that people often like to act like snake owners are cruel and soulless people who get a kick out of watching animals die. This is not the case for the majority of snake owners. On my times lurking snake forums or just the general web I have seen tons of threads of people asking how to cope with guilt about feeding their snakes rodents. I've even read of snake owners giving thanks before feeding to the animals that have to die to feed their pets. Lots of snake owners also own rats. What is cruel is going to the pet store and seeing the employees try and feed a snake crickets and mealworms and having to watch a lethargic and starved snake because people don't understand that lettuce and carrots don't cut it and the snake has to eat meat. As I said before feeding F/T is the best way to feed a snake and when you do there is really no need for guilt because these rodents did not suffer while being culled and lived very healthy lives. 

My next point is a controversial one and I do not believe there is a right or wrong to it nor do I believe my opinion is the best one. I definitely understand the attitudes that people have about it and the sympathy rodent owners may feel about the fact that some snakes will simply only accept live rodents.

A common answer for a snake owner to give about feeding live rodents is that it's "nature". And as someone with a great respect for snakes, I do not believe that throwing a rodent into a tank with nowhere to escape is nature and as I said the rodent is perfectly capable of fighting back and can cause a great deal of harm to the snake and it is unneeded suffering for the prey animal. This is why there are so many techniques to getting snakes to eat frozen rodents because it is humane to the prey and the predator. But some snakes will simply not accept it. So what can be done about this? Nothing. It must be accepted. I doubt many snake owners enjoy feeding live rats to their snakes but they care for their animals just like we care for our rats.

If anyone else owns geckos or beardies like myself, we must feed them insects. I'm sure those insects don't like being eaten either but it's done because the animal has to eat just like everything else on the planet. There will be billions of steaks and chickens placed on dinner tables tonight and I highly doubt every single one is killed painlessly or given a good and happy life. Even food for cats and dogs has meat in it but we like to deny the culling may be cruel because we don't see it happen. Even our beloved pet rats will eat mice smaller than them in the wild. There is no real way to end this statement because it is an open ended topic but the way I look at it is that people are very hypocritical about this because we often eat animals that are given much worse lives and treatment than feeder mice and rats are but we try to curb around it whenever a snake eats. 

That is all I really wanted to say. I just wanted to make a few points that snake owners are not all cruel people who just love to watch their snake food die. Most knowledgeable snake owners will try multiple methods to get their snakes to eat F/T rodents before ever feeding live because it's more humane. And as I said the majority of reputable companies that sell feeder mice keep them in clean conditions and feed them healthy diets and cull them painlessly. I love my rats just as much as I love snakes but I dislike seeing the squabbling that can go on between the two sides and wanted to share some of the things I've learned during my research so that people aren't as quick to jump to conclusions. Thanks for reading and as I said I respect all opinions, just throwing in my two cents.


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## Awaiting_Abyss

I completely agree. I just got my first snake recently and luckily he accepts frozen/thawed mice. I love my pet mice to death. They are probably my favorite rodent pet or they may be a close second to gerbils, but snakes have to eat too. I cried over the first mice that I had to put to sleep myself, but they died in their sleep so at least that way I know they don't suffer.


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## nanashi7

I actually don't mind legit feeder breeders as they take good care of their feeders. They understand a healthy animal is best for the reptiles. I do think, however, that it is best for both the predator and prey that the animals be fed F/T. I know it can be hard to get snakes to eat F/T (or impossible) but I think an increase in CB reptiles and less captured ones would lead to the problem being eradicated. I also disagree with the nature statement. Firstly as a philosopher due to the ambiguity of "nature". Next, nothing "natural" can be invoked in animal ownership - even with zoos that attempt to recreate a natural habitat.
Ideally, all feeders would come from breeders who know that it is risky to feed unhealthy rodents to pets. Ideally, snakes would be raised on F/T and be only captive-bred. Ideally, snakes would be recognized as more than predators as well, though.

However, where is a culture that I will call sick that is fascinated by and enjoys watching the live death of prey by the predators. I have witnessed this culture and it often goes hand-in-hand with ownership of "dangerous" snakes and of irresponsible ownership.

To be fair, I will explain my bias: I have owned snakes and owned lizards when I was younger. However, as I studied philosophy more I have become unable to feed live _anything_ to any animal. Even down to mealworms -- bizarre, I know, but I couldn't justify much on differentiating between life values. I am a vegetarian -- not vegan, though.


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## Xerneas

A lot of your points are the ones I agree with and tried to emphasise on while writing this post. Even a simple google search can reveal tons of red flags about how bad it is to feed live rodents unless you absolutely cannot. There are plenty of methods that will make a picky snake take to F/T better. Not only is it more humane for the rodent but you could even be saving your snake's life if it's an adult rat/mouse. They are capable of serious blows. 

I can understand fascination with predators hunting prey in the wild. I can understand finding the hunting instinct of a predator beautiful and watching two amazing creations of nature fight. I love nature. But I can't find the beauty in feeding rodents to your snake that can also potentially seriously injure it if not kill it just to go rave about how cool it is to watch your snake kill something when you know the risks behind it. But on the other hand I also accept that no matter how hard people try some snakes will not accept F/T food. But then where can you go from there besides accept the fact? There are many, many worse ways to kill a mouse that you can find in Home Depot aisles but yet there is more remorse when an animal eats. It is impossible to try and place some ban on snakes just because they eat rodents. If that is what people believe then what can be said about our carnivorous cats or our poultry sections of the supermarket? 

I am also a big philosophy fan and I do believe that every single life serves some purpose whether it's a worm or a human. However, I try to look at things in the sense that if I eat something as simple as a tomato, I am eating something an insect could be feeding on. Maybe a starving worm will lose a life because I ate that tomato. However, I also deserve to eat as does everything else. The same is with snakes and other reptiles. Snakes bring people happiness and people love their pets and they have to do what must be done for their pets. Just show respect for what you feed and what you eat and never take it for granted when you have food to feed your pets and yourself.

Sorry that this took a more philosophical path than what the solid point is but I love a chance to talk with fellow people who enjoy philosophy.


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## elliekayy

It's nice to finally see a rodent owner not bash on snake owners I've had ball pythons, and I currently have two Colombian red tail boas and we feed them thawed rats. I also own rats as a pet, but I understand the difference between pets, and food. 
This was just a nice post to read  


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## Nimh

I understand completely. My roommate has a corn snake and I have been watching it for the summer and I feed it pinkies every week. 

I just see it as taking care of my animal. But it is hard to watch snake owners buy live rats. I just bought a young rat with a great personality because I knew I would just feel guilty for letting her be snake food. 

But in the end it's the circle of life and rats will always be bred for feeders.

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## Mitsy

I don't think it's the snake owner or the snakes that most people here are meaning to put down. Honesty I hate feeder bins in pet stores I wish they didn't exist because people that work at pet stores think that all these rodents that are in the feeder bin or cage are going to end up killed anyways which isn't true some live there until they are basically adults and they people working at the pet store shove them all in a small cage that's not suitable for them with tiny hide and a bowl with food. These are the things that I as a rat owner hate seeing yes maybe they will end up being killed but up until then they deserve a happy live. Now I would much rather their be feeder breeders but with rules that the rats should be in a suitable environment because it isn't fair to them to be kept in small containers or good for them anyways. I think even if they are being bred as feeders anywheres the rats should be happy and comfortable in the cage they are living in until they are fed or culled for animals to live. It's the feeder bins and ways some feeder breeders treat the animals that bug me the most. 

I understand they need to eat but the rodents need to be able to live a life up until that point and I know first hand their are some snake owners that find it so fun to watch a poor rodent be chased around in a tank where it can't hide from the animal that is trying to kill it or they find it interesting to watch the lump where the animal is being digested move down the snake. I know not all snake owners do this and I know that they must feel bad when they do give them a dead rodent but the ones that do love to watch a poor innocent animal scared for its life get killed are the ones giving the snake owners a bad reputation. 

I have nothing against people with reptiles and other animals that eat rodents but I do have something to say about the ones that treat the rodents badly.

Anyways that's my thoughts sorry if their all over the place but that is a touchy subject for any rodent owner or any snake owner or the owners to both.


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## tayloo

I have a ball python who eats only live rats. And to me its just part of life and I am used to having to feed live.


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## Xerneas

Yes Mitsy, I also have something to say to people who don't remember that even feeder rats are living things and deserve a good life and a painless death. I have owned many many rodents in my life and love them and I firmly believe it is terribly inhumane and cruel to keep feeders in horrible conditions. I wish I had made it a little bit more clear that I acknowledge the terrible side of feeder rat breeding and in no way encourage bad care and never will. What I am trying to get at is that more people should do research before acting like this is really the norm though, because most respected feeder breeders and even people on forums promise to take very good care of their rats and mice and keep them healthy as possible. People who love their reptiles understand nothing good comes out of feeding unhealthy rats to their pets and therefore they will take good care of them and hopefully cull them very painlessly.

I have no problems with your opinions whatsoever and in fact I agree with them. I understand this is a sensitive topic and I fully respect that some rodent owners will always feel squeamish about feeding snakes. That is perfectly understandable. But I also dislike the rumours floating around everywhere that like to make think people every snake owner doesn't care for or appreciate what they feed and just gets a cheap laugh out of feeding their snakes.


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## cagedbirdsinging

There are bad/irresponsible/mean owners in every pet species.

I own a snake and I am perfectly comfortable with feeding because I have gone out of my way to investigate every aspect of it. My feeders are chosen carefully based on their care pre-euth and humane euthanization.

As a result, I have a healthy and well-fed snake and zero guilt about feeding because I've done everything in my power to make it as positive of an experience as possible.


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## Voltage

I used to love snakes and had always wanted one until I finally got rats for the first time. Which is strange because I've fed a snake a thawed mouse before (my aunt owned snakes)
Since I've gotten rats I couldn't even think about snakes. The idea of my furry pal being eaten by a snake bothered me greatly. I didn't hate snake owners or anything. I've since calmed down about it but I could never feed a snake again.
I am not as fond of them as I used to be but again have nothing against people who do like or have them

It's the people who take pleasure in feeding live animals to their pet that bothers me.


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## Xerneas

I don't find it strange that you would feel more remorse after owning rodents. In fact, before I owned my rats I had always wanted to own a snake and had absolutely no problem when I thought of feeding it but when I began to think about owning a snake afterwards purchasing my rats, I began to think "oh god how am I going to handle this." But after doing a few simple searches of learning about coping with the guilt I learned that there are way more snake owners that have this problem than people think and discovered that some people even keep the ones they find too cute to feed as pets.

It's true that there are people who actually enjoy feeding live despite how inhumane it is for the mouse and dangerous it is for the snake and won't even attempt to try feeding F/T just because "wow look my pet can kill something." I dislike seeing people feed animals that can eat mice, live mice even if there are much better options just because they want to watch it. And I tend to get more irked when people use the "it's nature" argument because yes, if you're watching Discovery Channel maybe it's nature but people know better than assuming throwing a rodent into a cage is nature and the rat has a real chance of surviving (causing real damage to the predator yes but 9 times out of 10 I think the snake will win). I don't understand exactly why people have to take a video of it either, I think it should really just be kept private.

But you can't throw that stereotype onto every single snake owner because it's not as easy and fun for snake owners to feed their pets as people assume it is. As rat owners I think most people on this forum know how annoying it is to have friends and family acting like our pets are disease ridden vermin infected with the plague and complain about their tails just like snake owners don't like people who don't do their research and enjoy spewing nonsense about animal cruelty although they wouldn't think twice about stepping on spiders or eating at Burger King and placing rat traps in their house that can do much more gruesome things to a rodent than an eating animal can.

I don't like the idea of feeding my rats to snakes either. My rats are pets and I love them. But I also enjoy my computer and my house. And many animals died due to the buildings where my computer was built. Every time I step in the dirt I probably kill millions of living organisms. Death is all around us, it is a part of life too, and as long as people learn to respect what they feed to their snakes and understand even if it'll end up dead soon it deserves a good life, there is nothing wrong with people feeding their snakes.


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## cagedbirdsinging

Just about everyone around here knows my stance on processed foods and foods that go against the natural feeding habits of individual species, but I found some interesting information leading to "snake sausages". Apparently some folks have success with them.

Interesting to think about!

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/product.aspx?ProductId=23&product=Reptile+Diet


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## TheZoo

Well the way I see it is I thank every rodent the comes in our home for sacrificing their life for another's I also name them even though there already passed I treat there bodys with respect as if one of my rats passed and I was readying them for burial. My feeders come from a good place who puts them down humanely or sells live if you need them. They also respect them and treat them with care till there last day weather there a newborn or retired breeder.


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## Xerneas

cagedbirdsinging said:


> Just about everyone around here knows my stance on processed foods and foods that go against the natural feeding habits of individual species, but I found some interesting information leading to "snake sausages". Apparently some folks have success with them.
> 
> Interesting to think about!
> 
> http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/product.aspx?ProductId=23&product=Reptile+Diet


This is interesting, but really it is probably terribly processed and upon reading the ingredients it just looks like it has way too many additives in there. Snakes require the whole rodent including the fur and bones for proper nutrition which a processed sausage simply isn't going to supply. However, the real reason why I find products like this fishy is because often times it just makes snake owners think because there is an alternative that the snake _might _accept because they don't want to feed rodents they can go ahead and buy the snake. Plenty of snakes can be picky and even if they ate this once they might not ever want to eat it again and then it's just not fair on the animal's part that their owner won't feed them what they really want.  

If it were possibly to make something like this that was as nutritionally complete as a rodent is for snakes and wasn't pumped full of stuff by all means go ahead but I can't realistically see something like that happening any time soon... I guess what I'm really trying to say that if you don't want to feed rodents don't get a snake.


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## Daniel

This is an interesting topic and one I would have replied to earlier if I had seen it.

I think part of the problem with snake owners is that at least with the internet, they can attract a 'Beavis and Butthead' sort of crowd that get a laugh out of live feeding. And I think some newer snake owners may have been gotten into it for that reason (though I suspect they will be the first ones to abandon their snakes once they get bored with them or it becomes expensive) Don't believe me? Just type live feeding _________ on youtube and you will get a number of live feedings set to heavy metal music, or shot in a way to look 'cool'. One thing I hate about YT is that you will get some of these videos in 'suggested' videos when looking up general rat topics, largely because of view count. Some will say that is just 'cycle of life', which is true, but there are some videos that go out of line - there is a well known one of a guy feeding live rats to a large turtle (not something they should be fed) who is literally tearing the rats in pieces. It's graphic, and frankly disgusting.

For me, there is a certain cost of care I am not willing to go over for affectionless pets. Fish and fire belly toads (which I own several of) show zero affection, but only eat either fish food or insects and their cost of keeping is inexpensive. I also suppose I have a soft side for the aquatic reptiles. But for snakes, especially ones that grow to need rats, this would end up getting very expensive quickly - all for a pet that just lays there most of the time. I don't begrudge those who own snakes, only that I am not willing to spend that kind of money for a pet that shows nothing in return.


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## Voltage

Out of morbid curiousity I watched that video where the person feeds rats to his snapping turtle.
I had it muted and the beginning was deceiving, showing a bunch of cute small pets in happy conditions. 
I regret watching the video. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen.
Every single rat was alive when thrown into the tank. And they were alive while being ripped apart.... And then still alive after....
I could not imagine the pain those poor babies went through....
It is just beyond sickening.
Snakes probably kill their prey much faster. 
But I have complained about it before but I despise that these videos end up in the related/suggested list.
There was one video titled "Piranhas destroy rat" or something a long those lines. And I just... Can't believe how many disgusting people there are.

Not all rodent owners are decent either. I have no doubt there are probably people who feed mice to their rats. There is one video on youtube that I know of where someone fed their rat a wild mouse....
And I know of these videos because they end up in the related videos...

What is wrong with these people?
I see no harm in feeding rodents to snakes seeing how that is what they are supposed to eat.
But feeding pets to pets who DON'T need to eat that animal, especially alive.....

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## cagedbirdsinging

Xerneas said:


> This is interesting, but really it is probably terribly processed and upon reading the ingredients it just looks like it has way too many additives in there. Snakes require the whole rodent including the fur and bones for proper nutrition which a processed sausage simply isn't going to supply. However, the real reason why I find products like this fishy is because often times it just makes snake owners think because there is an alternative that the snake _might _accept because they don't want to feed rodents they can go ahead and buy the snake. Plenty of snakes can be picky and even if they ate this once they might not ever want to eat it again and then it's just not fair on the animal's part that their owner won't feed them what they really want.
> 
> If it were possibly to make something like this that was as nutritionally complete as a rodent is for snakes and wasn't pumped full of stuff by all means go ahead but I can't realistically see something like that happening any time soon... I guess what I'm really trying to say that if you don't want to feed rodents don't get a snake.


I am in complete agreement, but you can say this with any pet.

Cats and dogs are carnivorous and ideally, naturally, require whole prey. Yet, it is commonplace to feed kibble and canned processed meats with additives rather than the prey that they are designed for, and this is deemed acceptable to the masses.

The same goes for rats. Blocks, fortified with artificial ingredients to complete the diet, go against their natural dietary biology.

Does this mean that no animal owner, regardless of species, should own an animal if they are not prepared to offer it the 100% natural diet that the animal was designed for? How is that line drawn?

"Food" for thought.


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## Voltage

Wow, I've never thought of it that way, cagedbird

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## Xerneas

cagedbirdsinging said:


> I am in complete agreement, but you can say this with any pet.
> 
> Cats and dogs are carnivorous and ideally, naturally, require whole prey. Yet, it is commonplace to feed kibble and canned processed meats with additives rather than the prey that they are designed for, and this is deemed acceptable to the masses.
> 
> The same goes for rats. Blocks, fortified with artificial ingredients to complete the diet, go against their natural dietary biology.
> 
> Does this mean that no animal owner, regardless of species, should own an animal if they are not prepared to offer it the 100% natural diet that the animal was designed for? How is that line drawn?
> 
> "Food" for thought.


Yes, this is very true and also quite interesting to think about. I believe the reason for this is that cats and dogs (and I suppose rats to an extent but aren't rats scavengers by nature? I suppose a lot of them are willing to put anything that smells appealing into their mouth...or at least mine are ) are very domesticated and I guess adapted to eating kibbles. I am really not the most knowledgable on how the foods are made or how cats/dogs went from eating real prey to kibble but as cats/dogs have been pets for thousands and thousands of years maybe their bodies have grown more adapted to it. I don't really know if that's a reasonable hypothesis but for this reason I try my best to make sure my cat food doesn't have any or at least minimal additives/preservatives. I am a person with a lot of food allergies so I have to be careful and watch what I eat and I guess I try the same for my pets.

Snakes obviously have a different biology than mammals and different dietary needs so I guess that's why no "snake kibble" has been invented yet. Nor do I think it ever will be considering the way snakes eat. Since snakes get their nutrition from all the organs and the bones and the fur I imagine it's harder to give the snake everything it really needs in some kind of processed form where as generally the same can be achieved with well made dog and cat foods. It's hard for me to explain but since snakes swallow the entire rodent whole I have a hard time fathoming an alternative that could have everything a rat has. If it were achieved it would be interesting to see people begin to breed snakes that ate alternative foods but as I don't believe snakes can or ever will be as domesticated as cats or dogs it would be more difficult than it sounds.


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## Voltage

I just want to share my opinion on something.
Rats are just like dogs 
They are just as playful, just as intelligent, clean and affectionate. They are everything a dog is in a much smaller form.
I prefer rats over dogs and I LOVE dogs.
And it is viewed as wrong to say feed a dog to another animal. Alive or otherwise.
So I think that is why live feeding bothers me so much. 

Snakes on the other hand are not affectionate. They don't do tricks or compete for your attention. They just sit there.
Same with fish, snapping turtles and a lot of reptiles.
While I have nothing against owning any of those animals or feeding them what they are supposed to eat.
Knowing how amazing rats are and how they are possibly as emotionally complex as us, and how they all have distinct personalities. 
I just hate that people will record their animal killing and eating them for entertainment....

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## Xerneas

Voltage said:


> I just want to share my opinion on something.
> Rats are just like dogs
> They are just as playful, just as intelligent, clean and affectionate. They are everything a dog is in a much smaller form.
> I prefer rats over dogs and I LOVE dogs.
> And it is viewed as wrong to say feed a dog to another animal. Alive or otherwise.
> So I think that is why live feeding bothers me so much.
> 
> Snakes on the other hand are not affectionate. They don't do tricks or compete for your attention. They just sit there.
> Same with fish, snapping turtles and a lot of reptiles.
> While I have nothing against owning any of those animals or feeding them what they are supposed to eat.
> Knowing how amazing rats are and how they are possibly as emotionally complex as us, and how they all have distinct personalities.
> I just hate that people will record their animal killing and eating them for entertainment....
> 
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I can understand your viewpoint about this but at the same time some things about this post are just irking me a lot that aren't fair to snake owners so I'd like to try and respond with some sensible arguments...

First off, I don't think it's right at all to compare feeding rodents to feeding an animal a dog. Yes, to many people rats are pets, to the snake the rat is food. End of story... It is what the snake eats. It is an unchangeable fact of nature and nothing can be done about the way that the snake eats rats. On the other hand there is absolutely no reason to feed a dog to any pet exotic or not because honestly I can't think of any animals that can be kept as pets that would commonly ever find dogs in the wild to eat. That's why it would be considered cruelty and wrong but on the other hand you can't feed the snake alternatives to meat. 

Yes, it's true that snakes aren't exactly affectionate. I say exactly because it's currently debated and speculated how well reptiles can show affection. But I don't believe snakes are animals that "just sit there" and I dislike this mindset because even if they don't roll over and bark they can still be entertaining animals. They enjoy exploring their enclosures and climbing on branches and if they are tame they will slide into your sleeves and sleep on your head. And even if they don't many people, including myself, enjoy keeping reptiles and fish because you get a sense of pride when you manage to maintain a suitable environment and successfully keep pets that are out of the norm and more difficult than owning the usual pets. It is a responsibility and people are satisfied when they fulfill their responsibilities. It is fun and rewarding to watch the animal thrive and know it's thanks to you. 

To put that into perspective, a lot of people will say "wow" when they see an aquarium and marvel about how cool it is and it's relaxing and beautiful to watch. A lot of work goes into those aquariums. People can spend hours cleaning them, thousands of money on the tanks and fish, go through trouble with algae and harmful aquarium bacteria, all for pets that probably don't acknowledge it. But it's still awesome to see the results of your hard work and have something beautiful that you put work into making. The same can be said for reptiles (although probably not as dramatically as huge aquariums).

It's true that a lot of rats that become food for snakes could have amazing personalities. Although it's a bit practical, even the cows and chickens that are eaten every single night without a second thought could have been cool to raise and provided entertainment and made people laugh. A lot of humans could also become presidents and cure illnesses or set world records but aren't given the chance to either. It is hard to stomach but there must be sacrifices and chances that can't be taken in certain circumstances. If people focus on saving every single animal that is food in another one's eyes, the predator will starve. Snakes are important to the ecosystem and in captivity they also provide their owners with entertainment and happiness just like our pet rats and they have to eat. If you are feeding your snake, look for the rodents that are culled painlessly and given clean water, good food and fresh bedding beforehand, say a thanks to the animal for giving its life for your pet, do it quick and then learn to move on because the guilt is not necessary. If you don't want to do that don't own a snake.

I understand how terrible it is that people record live feedings for amusement. I don't like it either. Live feeding is also, as I have emphasised, dangerous for the snake and often times unnecessarily cruel for the feeder animal. That's why I believe before you feed live try every single thing you can possibly do to feed the frozen rodents. And if no matter what you do your snake will only eat live rodents, as I said say a thanks for the feeder giving its life for another, do it quick and learn to stomach that it's what your snake eats. Just be respectful and don't record it and set it to heavy metal music so others can get a sick kick out of it. 

I love my rats, they are my favourite pet that I own and they provide me tons of entertainment and even know tricks, but yesterday I went to the pet store and saw a corn snake skinnier than a pencil with crickets biting it in its cage, looking for a way out and I seriously hoped somebody would buy the poor thing soon and get a mouse in it. Yes, there are a lot of sick people who get disgusting laughs out of live feedings and give a terrible name to all snake owners, even the ones who feel guilt feeding their pets, and there are also snakes who are starved because of the mindset that giving the snake its food is cruel and disgusting.


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## nanashi7

I think snakes definitely have personalities and would go so far as to say some can be affectionate. Same with amphibians and other reptiles. 

I've seen snakes that strike at the cage just when you approach. My friend, however, had a snake that would come to her to be picked up. I had a lizard that was super complacent and could be held. On the other hand, my friend had a skink that only came for food and if you didn't have any would meander back to its cage. My friend really loved her bearded dragon and would let him out of his cage daily to play. Now, it wasn't like playing with any other animal but it was playing nonetheless. And when he passed, she cried. She spent a lot of money on medical bills attempting to prolong her life. I have to think that the affection must've been felt both ways.

I think your perception of animals greatly has to due with your first experience with them. I personally wouldn't own a hamster or a guinea pig: as a kid, all my hamsters were mean; my sister had guinea pigs and they just struck me as fat and dumb. I hear they can learn tricks, but I just saw them sit there and whine for food. However, I would love to own a cat again. I had so much fun with one named Apollo that cuddled me. My sister though would never own another one because of the second cat we had, Sam, whose hobby was to stalk and attack everyone in the house.
I think you also have to modify your expectations from what you get back from animals. I have four parakeets and on a good day I can get them to perch on my finger. That's it. However, they are treated no worse than my rats. They are quite spoiled. My family thinks I should get rid of them and try to recoup the hundreds of dollars that I've spent in top quality food, treats, playpens, cages, and vet costs. Especially since they are "mean": I won't, though. They may not show affection to me like I would like but none of them hate me and I quite love them just for the beautiful, noisy, irritating clowns they are.


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## Kiko

I feel I can have a lot to offer to this discussion, as I am a huge active member of the reptile AND the rat community. I own leopard geckos, I have a bearded dragon, a blue tongued skink, several ball pythons, several hognose snakes...I could go on.

I have actually never really ran into this "Rawr we hate snake owners!" mindset from ANY of my rat loving friends, most of the people I have met on forums are very open minded about other people having snakes. 

The live feeding discussion is a dead horse that's been kicked to a pulp honestly.

I am very passionate about my reptiles, and i will give them the same level care I give to any of my pets. While my ball pythons are not as affectionate as a dog or a rat, they are still my pets. And I argue the point that my bearded dragons and skinks, while they may not show love like a mammal, are just as loved by ME as my rats were. And that is my obligation as a pet owner. I can't fathom why some people would want an animal like a macaw, but it does not mean I don't understand why those people who do choose to keep those birds love and cherish them, just as I love my reptiles.

Everything has a purpose to me, I am not a typical pet owner who wants to kiss and love their pets, I tend not to humanize, or baby talk, or even cuddle really with my pets. It does not make me any less of a pet owner though.
I have filmed my reptiles eating before, because it can be an interesting subject among other reptile owners to see, compare, observe, and sometimes be amused by weird quirks our pets have. It has nothing at ALL to do with me getting some sick enjoyment out of seeing a frozen rodent being consumed.
On the other hand, I have also recorded many images of rats after they have been necropsied by my vet for educational purposes. What a diseased lung looks like, a diseased brain, a sick reproductive system, ect. All for the purpose of education, not for the purpose of enjoying seeing dead animals.

While yes, I definitely have seen some of the unsavory folk you all are thinking of, the ones who giggle and laugh as they toss animals into to fight to the death in a horrific youtube video. Those people make up a very small minority of educated, moral reptile owners.


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## Voltage

Xerneas said:


> I can understand your viewpoint about this but at the same time some things about this post are just irking me a lot that aren't fair to snake owners so I'd like to try and respond with some sensible arguments...
> 
> First off, I don't think it's right at all to compare feeding rodents to feeding an animal a dog. Yes, to many people rats are pets, to the snake the rat is food. End of story... It is what the snake eats. It is an unchangeable fact of nature and nothing can be done about the way that the snake eats rats. On the other hand there is absolutely no reason to feed a dog to any pet exotic or not because honestly I can't think of any animals that can be kept as pets that would commonly ever find dogs in the wild to eat. That's why it would be considered cruelty and wrong but on the other hand you can't feed the snake alternatives to meat.
> 
> Yes, it's true that snakes aren't exactly affectionate. I say exactly because it's currently debated and speculated how well reptiles can show affection. But I don't believe snakes are animals that "just sit there" and I dislike this mindset because even if they don't roll over and bark they can still be entertaining animals. They enjoy exploring their enclosures and climbing on branches and if they are tame they will slide into your sleeves and sleep on your head. And even if they don't many people, including myself, enjoy keeping reptiles and fish because you get a sense of pride when you manage to maintain a suitable environment and successfully keep pets that are out of the norm and more difficult than owning the usual pets. It is a responsibility and people are satisfied when they fulfill their responsibilities. It is fun and rewarding to watch the animal thrive and know it's thanks to you.
> 
> To put that into perspective, a lot of people will say "wow" when they see an aquarium and marvel about how cool it is and it's relaxing and beautiful to watch. A lot of work goes into those aquariums. People can spend hours cleaning them, thousands of money on the tanks and fish, go through trouble with algae and harmful aquarium bacteria, all for pets that probably don't acknowledge it. But it's still awesome to see the results of your hard work and have something beautiful that you put work into making. The same can be said for reptiles (although probably not as dramatically as huge aquariums).
> 
> It's true that a lot of rats that become food for snakes could have amazing personalities. Although it's a bit practical, even the cows and chickens that are eaten every single night without a second thought could have been cool to raise and provided entertainment and made people laugh. A lot of humans could also become presidents and cure illnesses or set world records but aren't given the chance to either. It is hard to stomach but there must be sacrifices and chances that can't be taken in certain circumstances. If people focus on saving every single animal that is food in another one's eyes, the predator will starve. Snakes are important to the ecosystem and in captivity they also provide their owners with entertainment and happiness just like our pet rats and they have to eat. If you are feeding your snake, look for the rodents that are culled painlessly and given clean water, good food and fresh bedding beforehand, say a thanks to the animal for giving its life for your pet, do it quick and then learn to move on because the guilt is not necessary. If you don't want to do that don't own a snake.
> 
> I understand how terrible it is that people record live feedings for amusement. I don't like it either. Live feeding is also, as I have emphasised, dangerous for the snake and often times unnecessarily cruel for the feeder animal. That's why I believe before you feed live try every single thing you can possibly do to feed the frozen rodents. And if no matter what you do your snake will only eat live rodents, as I said say a thanks for the feeder giving its life for another, do it quick and learn to stomach that it's what your snake eats. Just be respectful and don't record it and set it to heavy metal music so others can get a sick kick out of it.
> 
> I love my rats, they are my favourite pet that I own and they provide me tons of entertainment and even know tricks, but yesterday I went to the pet store and saw a corn snake skinnier than a pencil with crickets biting it in its cage, looking for a way out and I seriously hoped somebody would buy the poor thing soon and get a mouse in it. Yes, there are a lot of sick people who get disgusting laughs out of live feedings and give a terrible name to all snake owners, even the ones who feel guilt feeding their pets, and there are also snakes who are starved because of the mindset that giving the snake its food is cruel and disgusting.


I don't see any problem with feeding snakes their natural diet. It's feeding them to animals who DON'T need to eat them that I take issue with and feel is like feeding a dog to a shark.
Like there are youtube videos of people feeding live rats to a snapping turtle, piranhas, ferrets, cats..... The list goes on I'm sure.

The ONLY issue I have with snake feeding is when it's recorded as a live feed and is in no way for educational purposes.

I had always wanted a pet snake because I thought they were awesome. I had even fed a frozen mouse to a snake before.
But upon owning rats I could never own snake knowing they eat mice and rats.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Awaiting_Abyss

I don't feel that its wrong to feed a rodent to any animal that would normally eat them in the wild whether its a snake, a dog or a cat. As long as the rodents are treated well while they're alive.

Snakes and other reptiles do feel love, but they show it differently than mammals do. I can tell that my snake loves me, and he definitely has a huge personality. My old leopard gecko (who has now passed) loved me very much. She would really enjoy when I stroked her back or rubbed her tail. She would arch her back like a kitten to my strokes.


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## Xerneas

Awaiting_Abyss said:


> I don't feel that its wrong to feed a rodent to any animal that would normally eat them in the wild whether its a snake, a dog or a cat. As long as the rodents are treated well while they're alive.
> 
> Snakes and other reptiles do feel love, but they show it differently than mammals do. I can tell that my snake loves me, and he definitely has a huge personality. My old leopard gecko (who has now passed) loved me very much. She would really enjoy when I stroked her back or rubbed her tail. She would arch her back like a kitten to my strokes.


That's very cute.  I also own leopard geckos (sorry to hear about yours, RIP) and they are the cutest things. Honestly I don't know if I can believe reptiles can ever be as cuddly as our rats are but it's 100% obvious that they can feel trust and safety. My leopard geckos and my bearded dragon fall asleep while I am petting them or stroking them and I have heard about snakes retreating into the safety of their owners' laps or into their shirts when frightened by a sudden noise or object. So no I don't believe snakes only view their owners as a source of food or don't enjoy attention... Just my two cents.


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## cagedbirdsinging

As far as domestication in relation to kibble goes, cat/dog kibble is a relatively new "invention". It wasn't particularly in the interest of pets, but rather as a method of profiting from the byproducts of other industries. That is why all but the most expensive food options are nearly 100% byproducts from to food industry as well as "recycling" other unmentionables. It's a tough pill to swallow, but that is how kibble came about. Before that, our domesticated carnivores ate what we ate. You tossed a chicken back to the pup after supper and set the gizzards outside for the cats to supplement their rodent intake.

The pet industry rarely, rarely exists for the betterment of animal husbandry. That is the way it started, and while a handful of companies are making great strides, any significant movements in the industry won't be on the horizon in the near future.


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## rat-fiend

elliekayy said:


> I've had ball pythons, and I currently have two Colombian red tail boas and we feed them thawed rats. I also own rats as a pet, but I understand the difference between pets, and food.


 It's certainly good to distinguish between the two. Speaking of such, something really disturbed me while reading another forum. Someone had admitted that he bought two rats from a pet store specifically to feed to his snake. Yes, I know that snakes have to eat (admittedly rodents) but come on, these animals were meant to be pets. They could have gone to a good home and be well cared for and loved. Well...as it turns out, there was a good ending. The rats weaved their magic on the snake owner. He thought that they were too cute to be used as snake food. So he had a change of heart decided to keep them as pets instead. But it was his original intention that I have a problem with.


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## Xerneas

rat-fiend said:


> It's certainly good to distinguish between the two. Speaking of such, something really disturbed me while reading another forum. Someone had admitted that he bought two rats from a pet store specifically to feed to his snake. Yes, I know that snakes have to eat (admittedly rodents) but come on, these animals were meant to be pets. They could have gone to a good home and be well cared for and loved. Well...as it turns out, there was a good ending. The rats weaved their magic on the snake owner. He thought that they were too cute to be used as snake food. So he had a change of heart decided to keep them as pets instead. But it was his original intention that I have a problem with.


Phew I can't believe this thread has almost 800 views. Anyways.

I can only make assumptions because I don't know the full story but my guess as to why he would buy pet rats from the store is because it can be difficult to find live food. But if that wasn't the case I have no clue why he would buy the ones being sold as pets considering how it'll just be more money. But it seems like what you're hinting at here is that he bought them FOR the "enjoyment" of feeding a cute cuddly thing that was meant to be a pet but yea I have no clue. A link to the forum would have been helpful but I'm trying to go by my instincts here. 

As rodent owners I think many of us are much more easily sensitive and disturbed about feeder rodents. As I think I mentioned before in this thread before I had rats I was obsessed with snakes and never thought twice about it. After owning rats when I got back to herps it was much more difficult for me to swallow that when I own snakes I will have to feed rodents, possibly even live ones if my snake is picky. To be honest. I think it is difficult to understand when you don't have the same passion, just like how many people cannot fathom why we keep pet rats. I don't like the gross crunch it makes when my geckos bite into a mealworm, but it probably tastes like a steak to them. And I know many people who couldn't stomach feeding insects but to me, someone who loves her lizards, I accept it as routine and keeping them alive and thriving. The same is true for people who own snakes. Doesn't mean they enjoy it.

I also do not necessarily agree with buying the pets that were for sale as PETS as food but if we have a big soft heart for every single feeder ever just because lots of them have beautiful coats, or can be very affectionate and smart, what can be said about keeping snakes as pets? Many of those feeder mice could go home and be cared for and loved too. Although I definitely don't agree with it I'm sure some people argue that no feeder mice or rats should be sold because they are meant to be pets and snakes should be kept in the wild. Something has to die for the snake to eat... it's hard to stomach, I know, but yes there are going to be very intelligent and beautiful rats euthanised for a snake to eat it. That's how it works. It sounds very harsh and even for me, a huge lover of snake, it's not easy to think about, especially after owning these wonderful pets. But life will go on anyways and many other rats will be given the opportunity to shine apart from those sacrificed to feed another animal.

Anywho aside from my ramblings... I don't agree in buying the rats being sold as pets as food especially if he was doing it for enjoyment, also considering you can buy live feeders for way cheaper but I just wanted to voice my opinion on another part of the argument.


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## SheWroteLove1

Maybe someone could clear this up for me.

How exactly are feeder mice/rats raised and culled? What is the process of humanely culling? 

I'm familiar with what culling is, but not informed as much as I'd like to be.


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## nanashi7

SheWroteLove1 said:


> Maybe someone could clear this up for me.
> 
> How exactly are feeder mice/rats raised and culled? What is the process of humanely culling?
> 
> I'm familiar with what culling is, but not informed as much as I'd like to be.


Well, the ideal feeder breeder uses healthy rats in nice set ups. They breed a bit like breeders do, minus socializing. This is because healthy rats make healthy meat. More often than not though it is a large-scale set up with girls and boys kept in small small cages and in filth. They pull out rats as needed to sell. Think of the mills that supply pet stores, sometimes worse.

The culling process ideally takes place using a means of euthanizing with aneasthetic but I've heard of suffocation/drowning used.


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## Xerneas

Most ideal feeder breeders use CO2 chambers. The rat/mouse falls asleep and dies in its sleep and feels no pain. From what I've read this is the most preferred method too and very easy.

Suffocation/drowning is not humane at all and I do not agree with it.


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## nanashi7

Xerneas said:


> Most ideal feeder breeders use CO2 chambers. The rat/mouse falls asleep and dies in its sleep and feels no pain. From what I've read this is the most preferred method too and very easy.
> 
> Suffocation/drowning is not humane at all and I do not agree with it.


Maybe I misunderstand how CO2 chambers work with rats, but in humans doing that is essentially suffocation on fast forward. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Xerneas

nanashi7 said:


> Maybe I misunderstand how CO2 chambers work with rats, but in humans doing that is essentially suffocation on fast forward. Correct me if I am wrong.


I am not an expert but it is definitely different between humans and rats. Rats fall asleep almost immediately and die in their sleep painlessly. Humans have more... tolerance? to it until the level gets raised very high and then they start to suffocate. (http://www.analox.net/carbon-dioxide-dangers.php) 

I've read that it's the only approved way to euthanise feeder rodents at home. It is definitely humane.

edit:

"The only humane way to euthanize a rat at home without veterinary help is with carbon dioxide (CO2). Euthanasia with CO2 is approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA).

Concentrated CO2 is a central nervous system depressant and actually causes anesthesia. You know how you yawn when you’re sleepy? This is the body’s way of getting rid of excess carbon dioxide in your system which is making you sleepy. CO2 does not cause suffocation. The rat will be able to breathe normally, will become anesthetized and will then die."

from http://www.ratfanclub.org/euth.html


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## nanashi7

Alright, thanks.


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## Awaiting_Abyss

I am not a "feeder breeder" but I am beginning to breed mice for pets and the culls will go to my snake. So far I've had to buy a good many live mice to feed my snake since frozen mice aren't easy to find in the size I need.

I use a CO2 chamber to put my mice to sleep. If done correctly, the mouse will fall asleep and pass in its sleep. The process needs to be done slowly for this to happen. I make CO2 with white vinegar and baking soda. If CO2 is made too quickly then it will cause gasping which is a sign that the mouse is suffering. However, CO2 chambers only work on rodents that have fur. Ones without fur, it is more humane to just put them in the freezer because they die in a few seconds. Pinkies are unable to keep themselves warm, but they are able to hold their breath for a long time (they have to be able to live while being stuffed under mommy with a bunch of other babies..).


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## Xerneas

Awaiting_Abyss said:


> I am not a "feeder breeder" but I am beginning to breed mice for pets and the culls will go to my snake. So far I've had to buy a good many live mice to feed my snake since frozen mice aren't easy to find in the size I need.
> 
> I use a CO2 chamber to put my mice to sleep. If done correctly, the mouse will fall asleep and pass in its sleep. The process needs to be done slowly for this to happen. I make CO2 with white vinegar and baking soda. If CO2 is made too quickly then it will cause gasping which is a sign that the mouse is suffering. However, CO2 chambers only work on rodents that have fur. Ones without fur, it is more humane to just put them in the freezer because they die in a few seconds. Pinkies are unable to keep themselves warm, but they are able to hold their breath for a long time (they have to be able to live while being stuffed under mommy with a bunch of other babies..).


Yea, I did read on that site that the CO2 has to be done correctly for it to be really humane but if done correctly it's painless. Also, have you tried http://rodentpro.com/ ? They have TONS there and for very good prices too. You probably already have but just an offer.

On a side note do you have any pictures of your Hognose? I am a big fan of the hoggies


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## Awaiting_Abyss

I have not tried that. I actually didn't even know they could be purchased online until a few days ago. lol Thanks for the link! That's quite cheap! How do they go about shipping?

I do 
Enjoy. He's a cute little guy.




































All of those pictures were taken at the beginning of August. He's grown a bit since then. Not sure how much though since I haven't measured him.


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## Xerneas

They come packaged in freezer bags and the feeders are frozen individually so they don't get stuck together. Then it's just delivered right to your door no signature required. I did have a situation once where I ordered feeder _worms_ and they were put in the MAILBOX (lol) and they all died (they were Phoenix Worms which require moisture and prefer cooler temps) but that's only happened once and you can put in the comment section that you want it delivered right to the doorstep when ordering. Ever since that happened to me I've advised everyone to mention specifically that it should be brought to the door if possible lmao. Something tells me a bag of frozen mice dethawed by a hot sun would not smell pleasant. 

And as for shipping dates they kind of long but it's explained why better on the site: http://rodentpro.com/qpage_shiphelp.asp Not really too big of a deal anyways since snakes only need to eat about once a week on average and once you order 100 mice you're good to go for a while so...

He is such a cutie pie!!! Very nice looking snake. Look at that cute little nose! I have to own one of these guys some day.


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## Awaiting_Abyss

Lol yeah I wouldn't imagine it would smell that great. The issue is, I live in South Carolina so it would only take a short time for the mice to get stinky if I happen to not be home when they are delivered. I wonder if there is a way to plan the delivery date for a day that I'll be home all day? Or maybe a day when my mother is home all day.. though she doesn't even know I have a snake. I'm trying to keep it secret for as long as I can.  She already hounds me about how its "unhealthy" to have rats and mice.
I currently live on my parents land, but I live behind their house and behind my dad's shop. The area where I live is surrounded by trees so my house can't be seen from the road. Usually if I order things the UPS or FedEx person will deliver my things to my dad's shop. lol They must think I live there or something.

I'm glad I picked a hognose.  He is so sweet and they have such huge personalities. He also has done a great job at keeping my cats out of the critter room. I have his tank right by the door, so when the door is open (which I usually keep it closed except for when I'm in there) the cats see the snake and they won't go in there.


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## Xerneas

You can ask for it to be labelled discreetly and it will come labelled as frozen meat. Tell them you're making hamburgers. Lol. Unless you're a vegetarian  

Well, as said, there is a spot when ordering where you can type any specific delivery instructions but you said it's hard to see your house from the road so I'm not sure. Once you order there's an estimated time of arrival tracker you can check so maybe if you have a friend or something? I've got no clue. But it is possible to plan the delivery for a day you'll be home by following the shipping schedule.


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## Jaguar

I appreciate the civility of this thread but it is still against the rules. Sometimes things slide under the radar with so few mods, and this thread is one of them. Please do not discuss topics relating to feeders on Ratforum. There are children and sensitive individuals on the website that should not be subject to these kinds of threads on a pet forum. Thanks.


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