# is it a mouse, is it a rat?



## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

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this is our visitor that has been around nearly 2 weeks. hes grown alot and was only thinnly haired when we got him. 
our biggest rat has adopted him and now he even lives in the cage with our boys. problem is, a) dont know where he came from, rang spca and they have no reports of lost critters like him. b) and more importantly, is this a rat or a mouse? XD hes definitely a boy, we have very big balls, but im not sure whether we are another rat, or just a mouse. either way, our biggest rat LOVES him


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## AttackRat (May 21, 2012)

He's a rat!


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

Baby Rat


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

lol ok, looks like we have another rat going to become part of the clan then XD he appeared a few weeks ago, and has even been dragged into the bed when my rat boys were in there. any idea what colour he is? he started looking just white, but now, the back is slightly darker, creamish, and the belly is still white


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## Rat-1- (Jul 22, 2012)

He is adorable. That's so funny how he turned out to be a rat


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## ILoveMyMonsters (May 25, 2012)

How did you find him?


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

he just turned up one day, and hasnt really left since.


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## YellowSpork (Jul 7, 2012)

Well I'd certainly say he doesn't look like wild rat offspring.  That's adorable, and mysterious. XD


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

took him to a vet this afternoon just to get him checked out, now that we have decided to claim him as our own. when we described what part of town we live in, he said there has been many cats and dogs dumped there and maybe someone dumped a rat mommy or something? if someone did that, i wish they had taken them to the spca instead


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## elliriyanna (Jul 27, 2011)

Looks like he is a cream or Beige


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## CherriBomb (Nov 13, 2012)

What a cool story!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There's no way to tell if he's part wild or domestic at this point. Looks can be decieving, as he grows up if you notice strange behaviors or abilities or if he just seems to be "wrong somehow" he's a mixling and will require special treatment. Even baby wild rats can make great, if not different pets. So not to be worried, but don't be too complacent either. Mixlings are special needs children and can seriously hurt someone if mishandled.


My mixling killed mice on sight. My other rats tended to ignore them or push them around, now it makes more sense that your big guy adopted this baby. He either ran away from his owners or was discarded and as it's cold outside came into your home for the warmth and the smell of your rat pack likely encouraged him to pick your home over others. Otherwise, someone in your household fell in love with him and snuck him in... surprise!

In any event, he looks cute and healthy and if he's friendly most of the battle is won mixling or not. Keep an eye open for unusual scratching among your rats or scabs, whereas virulent rat diseases are actually pretty rare, mites are pretty common and they can take weeks or longer to show up. Some rats seem almost immune while others are very succeptable so he may not be the first one to show the symptoms.

So congrats on your new boy!


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

He is not half wild- he would be agouti with a lighter colored belly if he was.


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## Caz4500 (Jul 28, 2012)

aw he is gorgeous x


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## fluffy470 (Feb 24, 2012)

Georgeous little boy  makes me wish for more baby ratties... Then again... My current three produce enough stink...


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## Mousey (Oct 23, 2012)

Awhhh that's precious! Sounds like he found YOU!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

He looks like a light fawn hooded.

And yes there is no way genetically for him to be a true half wild. The only way for him to be "wild" is if his father (or mother) was an abandoned/released domestic rat and his mother (or father) was also a domestic rat. He could only be Agouti Self (Maybe a Berkshire if his mom was hooded), Fawn Self (Very rare chance though), Black (Uncommon but not unheard of in Half wild rats), or Beige (once again, very rare for him to be).


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

What a great story and so nice that he found you! It warms my heart to hear nice sotries like this... he could of turned up at someones house that hates ratties!


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## TachisMom (Oct 17, 2012)

What a fantastic story!!! I've been following your new foundling thoughout the posts, so sweet! Congrats on your new baby rat


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Korra, agouti is not always a dominent trait when it comes to rat appearance and rat genetics are pretty complex. Although when you cross an agouti with any other type of fancy rat, you are likely to get some agouti offspring, there's no guarantee that all of the babies are going to be agouti. Also, with so many fancy rats having escaped into nature over the generations even if the wild rat looks agouti it doesn't mean that he doesn't have some recessive genes that would express otherwise if mated with a fancy rat with similar recessive genes. Lastly, and I realize it's counterintuitive, just about all of the markings we are familiar with have likely existed in nature for thousands of years. Successful gene mutations appear in geological time with so many varieties of fancy rats to choose from, it's safe to assume that most have been kicking around in the rat genepool since before Christianity. Some PEW rat strains in captivity started out as albino's in the wild for example and likely there were already albino or blazed rats stealing scraps from the workers building the great wall of China. If you were to find a PEW running around in a cemetary for instance, you most likely shouldn't assume it's a domestic fancy rat, although in all probability it is. 

Genes tend to mix and match... So if a wild type with agouti appearance were to mate with domestic rat you very well can wind up with a rat that looks like a fancy rat but has all or most of the personality traits and abilities of a wild type.

Even among the so called domestic rats we all know and love wild type genes are far from extinct. Rather, it's a sliding scale. Certain lines that have been bred for generations to have nice personalities tend to be very docile, whereas other strains that have resulted from more recent back crosses to wild type or haven't been line bred for personality nearly as long still have some personality characteristics more similar to wild type rats. 

I think another good example would be agouti fancy rats, the case is reversed here. Just because a fancy rat is agouti doesn't mean it has any significant wild type personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of people in this forum who own very charming and docile agouti fancy rats. 

Just like you can't assume that an agouti rat you buy in the store will behave like a wild rat, it's just as unreasonable to assume that a bareback rat you find at the city dump is a tame domestic pet. As I recall rex is a dominent trait, so if you were to cross a completely wild type rat with a double rex, most of the babies should be wild-type in personality and rexes in appearance. If you cross a fancy rat with recessive markings with a wild type and some of the second or third generation breed with eachother you are definately going to have wild type fancy appearance rats in the mix. 

In my case, I bought a rat from a store that was brought in as part of an accidental litter, she certainly wasn't agouti. Certain of it's littermates were agouti though and most likely so was her father. She did however have a pretty full blown set of wild-type personality traits, adult body type, instincts and physical abilities. In fact, if you saw her you would be very, very tempted to scoop her up, which my neighbor found out was a very bad mistake when she tore up his hand faster than he could drop her.

I had intended to avoid going into rat genetics as it's stretching the topic, the purpose for my comment was to express the caution; just because a rat looks domestic doesn't mean it is. If you don't know a rat's history appearances can be deceiving. With the number of domestic rats that escape or are set free, and the likelyhood that some will survive on their own at least long enough to reproduce, combined with the fact that most mutations already exist somewhere in nature and the elimination of many preditors in urban environments, I have every certainty that the rat fancy is going to have some impact on the diversity of the general wild rat population in certain regions. So chances are that someday that blazed, dumbo, Russian blue, berkshire, chewing up your boots, might never have been someone's pet at all. If you see any rat, regardless of what it looks like, wandering by when you are at the park, and you want to grab it, you do so at your own peril. Same goes for one that turns up uninvited in your home.


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

Look at any half wild litter anyone on here has. They are all agouti babies. Agouti and black are the two most dominant colors in the rat genome. Even a rat that isnt agouti can make an agouti baby due to the combination of dominant wildtype genes. For example, the fawn mother I rescued who was mated to a blue. 4 agouti pups. 
furthermore, if this rat had been black there is a TINY chance it could be half wild, but this light of a fawn her champagne...not likely. That requires a large combination of recessive genes(hair color is a polygenic trait) and agouti is all wildtype(with perhaps a few small recessive mutations. If you can give me documented proof of half wilds being that color I will believe but otherwise I say no way.


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## marcp1956 (Oct 12, 2012)

ALL the domestic rats we have now originated from wild rats. The genetics of the wild rat contains everything we know and see in our domestic rats. I we had to, and had enough time, we could create (bad choice of words) the domestic rat from wild stock once again. I am saying this just to emphasize that with rats there is alway a chance of getting what may seem impossible offspring. We didn't "create" the colors we have now, it was alway within the wild rat and still is. Ratandseekersmum, I would really be surprise if your new rat was full wild, but I would not dismiss possibility of it being a wild cross even if it seems unlikely. Regardless of the color, from you description so for, it does not seem to behave like a rat with a lot of wild blood in it. If I were to guess I would say it was someones pet that got loose or the offspring of someones pet that got loose. Or depending on your friends ... it may have came from them???


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## marcp1956 (Oct 12, 2012)

Oh, and it is NOT a mouse, it IS a rat. Enjoy your new friend.


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

No wild rats do not have the exact same genes. Some of the mutations we had were made IN labs by mutating genes through reverse genetics. Yes the chromosome is still the same, but the genes on it are much more different than the one on the wildtype. This could have very well happened in the wild, but it is nearly impossible. Reverse Genetics is how we ended up with dumbo. It is a results of us breeding for what we want. Saying this rat is half wild is saying like a cocker spaniel could be half wild. It isnt in the genetics. You know to have a wolf dog it has a phenotype similar to a wolf. It is not gonna come out looking like an Australian Shepherd. Just doesnt happen. Yes they are the same animals but this one is a larger percentage difference from a wild rat than for example an agouti rat. Yall need to bring up color charts. Genetics is a fairly straight forward thing. Just like we know what a dumbo mating with a dumbo will make, we know what a wild mating with just about any color rat will make.


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

But either way I am not gonna argue it anymore  We will have to agree to disagree on this I guess. I can find pictures of every single half wild litter I have ever seen if you guys want, but I wont unless asked


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

how old would you suspect him to be?he arrived 2 or so weeks ago, and had peach fuzz sort of stuff, but now its full on fluffy fur. hes now grown to about the size of my palm, including tail


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## marcp1956 (Oct 12, 2012)

He looks like he may be small for his age. By the size of his testicles, I would say he is over 8 week, perhaps 10. He does look much smaller than the average 10 week old though. Hard to tell from pictures. That's my guess though.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I'm actually going to go with 5-6 weeks. If he still only had peach fuzz two weeks ago, there is no way he's 8-10 weeks old.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Korra, there is but one very small flaw in your argument. I had a part wild rat and it was not agouti, in fact it was a perfect agouti bareback rat. Other than its coloration, it's temperament and body type were almost completely wild type. In fact it lived outdoors for an entire summer. Basically all she was, was a wild type rat with the gene combination for bareback at the right locus. When I bought her, even though she was only a few weeks old the pet shop that had taken her in as part of an accidental litter give me a stern warning that under no conditions should I open the box until I got her home. Although they neglected to tell me exactly who her parents were, most likely because they knew nobody in their right mind would adopt a half wild rat as a first pet rat, and they did give me a song and dance about how she was raised by a little girl like mine, I'm pretty sure they knew exactly what they were sending home in the box I wasn't supposed to open.

While I tend to agree that most free ranging rats bearing fancy markings are escaped pet rats, my neighbor got his hand shredded when he tried to pick up and return my rats to me. And if you saw the towel soaked in blood wrapped around his hand or you witnessed my girl turning into a ball of fur, fangs and claws when she got upset, or you saw the way she hunted small animals, or the way she wouldn't eat new foods, or the way she could jump and climb and squish under doors, or the way she could evaporate into thin air, you would very quickly stop judging rats by their appearance. Also, although she came back in perfect health and neatly groomed she was outdoors for five months, if in the unlikelihood that she had a litter of pups, I wouldn't have the first guess as to what they would look like. But if she did reproduce, there is no doubt that she has introduced the bareback gene into the wild local rat population.

So, if you amend your comment to say that most part wild rats are agoutis I'll be happy to agree with you but after having raised a part wild that wasn't, I can reassure you from personal experience that recent mixlings are not all agouti.


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

I guess I am getting lost in these big novels you write but who do you know it was half wild? Temperament does not prove domestication. Nor does the behavior. 
Further more, you are not even talking about color anymore you are talking about markings and there is no way a bareback from come from a wild parent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjvz26FVZs
Watch this and you will see that behaviors are innate and can come out of domestic rats. 

There is NO way that a FIRST GENERATION half wild can be any other color than agouti and could be berkshire but would not be bareback. Your rat was probably a f2 or f3 generation or could very well be a rat that was NEVER handled and let her instincts take over just as the rats in the video did. 
Also, my rats are totally domestic and when I feed them bugs they turn into crazy insane predators as well. That does not prove wildness

Cats can be feral and mean and wild and will tear you to pieces but this does not make them WILD CATS. They are still classified at domestics that are feral. They are the same species but genetically different than actual wild species of cats. 
Dogs can tear a human apart and be mean and want to be alpha. They can have insane pack mentality, but that does not mean they are wolves or have to be mixed with wolves. You see it in hoarding cases all of the time. The dogs are left to fend for themselves so they revert back to their wild instincts to survive. BUT they are still classified as CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS not CANUS LUPUS. 
Just saying that an animal is no longer a domestic species due to its behavior is not a true idea.


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## rattyandseekersmum (Sep 29, 2012)

ok, nicely korra and rat daddy, can you please stop arguing, as this isnt what i created this thread for. all i wanted to know, was if it was a mouse or a rat, and how old it was. didnt really care if its wild/half wild and what mum and dad look like etc, and the whole genetic build up of my rat. i simply wanted to know details that would be USEFUL so i know how to handle him, and how old he is if i have to take him to a vet. if you want to argue still, please use PM's and not my thread?


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

Do you mean part wild as in the rat was just a wild rat? And she lived outside and that caused her behavior to BECOME like a wild rat? 
Cuz I can believe you there.

But if you are telling me that the rat was a FIRST GENERATION cross between a DOMESTIC rat and a WILD rat(not wild-TYPE rat) then I am going to have to say neigh on that one. 

I mean possibly the exact wild rat that just happened to mate with the domestic rat AND the wild rat's somatic genes mutated to make his alleles match with the domestic so that a bareback was made. But it is like a .000000000001 chance. Ridiciously low. Like me winning the lottery 3 times low


EDIT: Oops already had this typed out. 
But honestly didnt your questions get answered several times over XD
Also, a bit of this will help you learn how to handle him. 



But yes, he looks about 6-8 weeks to me. And he is not wild so you shouldnt have any behavioral issues at all. All your others are males right, then you wont have to worry about a neuter


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

rattyandseekersmum said:


> ok, nicely korra and rat daddy, can you please stop arguing, as this isnt what i created this thread for. all i wanted to know, was if it was a mouse or a rat, and how old it was. didnt really care if its wild/half wild and what mum and dad look like etc, and the whole genetic build up of my rat. i simply wanted to know details that would be USEFUL so i know how to handle him, and how old he is if i have to take him to a vet. if you want to argue still, please use PM's and not my thread?


Please do not backseat moderate, if you have an issue with the direction your thread is going please send me or one of the moderators a PM. A forum is just that - an open means of discussion, and while I agree that it was carrying on a bit too much, this is something for a moderator to deal with, not yourself.

*Please stay on topic, folks.*


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## Korra (Dec 11, 2011)

Sorry Jag. Will do


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed... to disagree. Before I knew better, I would have just as likely argued on Korra's side of this debate. And statistically Rattyandseekersmum, I don't know what the possibility of your rat being a mixling is. The likelyhood of your rattie being a first back cross to a wild type rat is very low, especially as your's appears to have more "fancy" traits than mine did. But you really don't know it's genetic makeup and I tend to think a little bit of caution is a good idea in case there might be a surprise in the soup. If he's a mixling you will find out soon enough.

That was the only point I intended to make in the first place.


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## TheRatPack8 (Dec 10, 2012)

He could just be a small rat. I've seen them in the pet stores but never get them because I'm afraid I will break them. 


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## pocketmouse (Jun 13, 2012)

Wow, I remember hearing about when you found him a couple weeks ago, he is too cute! I wish friendly little rats would wander into my life! Hehe. Thank goodness he found such a loving home, and not somebody that was afraid of rats!


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