# 2 and started biting!!



## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi.
My boy is 2 and has just starting biting me! Both times it wad just after cleaning their cage and I was setting the hammocks in. Last week I thought it was because I might have scared him but today he went for my finger! Both time have been pritty bad, blead and been very sure. 
Why is this happening?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Is he showing any other odd behaviour, eating oddly, lack of coordination or balance?

How is his vision, can he still see?

Does he seem unwell or in any pain or discomfort?


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

He seems fine. The only thing I can think of is that in December I got a new baby dumbo and I think he will eventually take his place as macho alfa. Could he de noticing this and is angry? But then why only when I have just finished cleaning? And why me and not the baby dumbo?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

did you use of new cleaning product? Could your fingers smell differently as a result?


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

It could be that! I have started to use vinegar which I hadn't used before but I wash my hands well and even use gloves.


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## Dan203 (Jul 10, 2014)

Is he biting you through the gloves? My boys always go after me when I wear gloves. Not sure what it is. The sound or the smell or what. Nibbler has bit me pretty hard a few times.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

vinegar smell is very strong and some will linger on your arms/sleeves or maybe the gloves are defective...next time don't use it and see how it goes.

Also it could be the gloves. Were you wearing gloves before? My rats always go for my bandaid if I have one- maybe in their heads they want to help me by getting rid of something strange on my finger...might be the same with the gloves.


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

I take the gloves off before I see the rats so it must linger. I had read that we should use vinegar to eliminate the smell before the intro and to help potty train. What shall I use instead?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Did you rinse the cage really well before putting your rats back into their cage?I personally don't use vinegar anymore because even after rinsing it well, it still made my rats sneeze. I use liquid dish free and clear and 3% hydrogen peroxide mostly. Also vinegar being an oxydising agent, it could rust your cage if it is not coated or in spots where the coating might be missing. I have a few tiny spots on my critter nation where it happened.


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

I have been using it on the plastic bits but to be on the safe side I will stop using it but here things are different. We can't get the same products as in the US I would need to find an equivalent. 
I don't know where I would be able to find the peroxide but what is the dish free and clear? Anything else that I could use? 

Thanks to everyone who has answered. Very thankful!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The peroxide can be found in the band-aid section of any pharmacy like Walgreens, CVS or grocery stores...it is meant to disinfect skin after a cut...The dish detergent is from Seven Generation brand with no perfume or scents, but many people use the Dawn blue detergent without any problem.


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Sorry is the hydrogen peroxide "Agua Oxiginada?" Like the stuff you put on cuts? Sorry I'm Spanish....

On the otherhand, should I be worried about the macho alfa situation?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yep that is the same has Agua oxiginada. Are they any signs of aggression like puffed hair, walking sideway, hissing, pushing against the body of the other rat.... If not they are probably just estsblishing dominance without trying to hurt each other. There is always neutering too.


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## Veileddreamer (Sep 21, 2015)

My rats aren't biters at all but once I reached in the cage with gloves on to do some light cleaning and they definitely bit me. Usually I take them out bare handed before I clean the cage so they must not have recognized the glove smell. When I took off the gloves and petted them, they were super loving again, licking me, etc. Definitely agree with them maybe not recognizing your scent that they know and love and biting the "stranger."


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Gribouilli I haven't hear any puffing or hissing. What he does is push the smaller ones out of the way and even pin them down. He has even pushed them off the shelves! No biting or injuries just smaller ones complaining. See Ivory is the largest and there was never any dominance when it was him and his brother but once Yoshi came he started with the dominance. I even feel like he bullies Yoshi at times and I thought it would stop once baby Sparky came but Sparky seems to be in charge at feeding times. Like he will push all of them out of the way and gets in the bowl! He lets them all eat obviously but he actually pushes his way in and pushing against Ivory.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Babies tend to be allowed a fair amount of free reign by adults. So are cheeky and will steal food even directly from there mouths. This tends to change when they hit the three to four month mark and start to be taken seriously. There's likely to be a bit of stamping his authority for a bit whilst that sorts itself out, but its very unlikely Yoshi will take over until he's at least 6 months ish.

Has he only bitten you after you've been cleaning him out? Or has it happened at other times too? Also are you using rubber gloves, because the smell of those is fascinating to rats and if he has bitten you soon after you've taken them off its likely the gloves not the vinegar or cleaning products.

If he's bitten you other times then its not to blame, instead somethings going on to change his behaviour. It may be that he's got early stages of some health issue, or that the tensions of a larger pack has made him feel he has to act more bossy. For now I would really keep an eye on him health wise, but treat as a behavioural issue. So if he goes to bite you pick him up immediately and tell him a firm no, then put him down again. If he does it again its a firm pick up and no, then put into a time out place (bare carrier works well), or a gentle tap can work as a reinforcement too. You also need to establish yourself as above him in the heirachy generally, this will help him relax when your around as he doesn't have to be in charge. To do this you need to handle him in a firm and assertive way. So things like picking him up and stroking his whole body firmly. Firm scritches around his shoulders and picking him up when you want to not when he wanders over for a fuss (though you can do it then as well). The idea is you make the interactions on your terms for a while, and see how he gets on.


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. 
Actually he has biten my boyfriends ear once and it blead so much and like 3 months later he bit mine and he almost went straight through!!. But that was it in 2 years until last week when I started to use vinegar, so I would use glooves while cleaning with the rats out of the cage and as I was cleaning the plastic bits in the bath I made sure they were really rinsed well. When I finished I removed the glooves and washed my hands, then went to the cage to set it up. At this point the rats love to climb in and explore and that is when he bit me, 2 weeks in a row! 
Right now he is own his own while the other 3 sleep together and I have noticed a lot lately but then other times he is with the littles ones perfectly fine.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Sometimes older rats develop pituitary tumors, and that can alter their behavior including some aggression. Just something to keep in mind in case his behavior continue to change. But it is most likely the vinegar, so don't worry now. Let us know how the next cage cleaning goes.


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi again.

So it is def not the vinegar nor the glooves! I can't see any lump either. Very worried, today I set up the whole cage with my boys in the carrier and then let them all in with out putting my hand in just in case. Ivory still huffing and hairs all on end. Why is this happening all of a sudden??


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Just to rule out pituitary tumor. Can he eat a cheerio with both hands while balancing himself on his back legs? Here are great pics that explain the process:http://lilspazrats.wikispaces.com/Health+Care-+Pituitary+Tumour+-+Failing+the+Cheerio+Test


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## Thor (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks again. 
I have been checking on him and he uses both hands to eat and he only bites just after cleaning. If he had a problem wouldn't he bit all the time?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes I would expect him to bite all the time if there was a problem. It is very good it is not a pituitary tumor. I would try cleaning the cage with something else and see if he still bites you. Vinegar smell is very strong and I had to stop using it because it didn't matter how well I rinsed their cage/toys, it would make them sneeze. I would use some "free and clear" dish soap like the 7th generation brand, and see if the biting stop altogether.


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