# Please help me understand my rats!



## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Okay everybody, I need some advice.

I have two female rats, Snoopy and Zelda (I also posted about them in the "meet my rats" forum), and they really confuse me a lot. They seem a bit cautious towards me, but not wholly fearful and definitely not aggressive. When I open the cage door, they will approach by themselves, and when I check the cage out and greet them they stick their noses right back at me. They don't cower away from me or puff their fur. They take treats from my hands just fine.

However, when I just put my hand in the cage, lying still, they will first sniff it, acknowledge their is no treat (or if there is, take it), sniff it a bit more, gently 'feel' with their teeth and then... NIP. Bite a bit harder. Not in a way that leaves a big gash, hurts like crazy and spills blood, but in a way that DOES hurt a bit and leave a slight mark. I have a photo right here:








This was done by Zelda, my Husky (also seen on my profile pic). I had smeared some baby food on the palm of my hand and put it still and flat in the cage. She approached it, licked off the babyfood (without biting), and then afterwards... suddenly did this. No signs of aggression or fear, just BAM out of the blue, seemingly without a reason.

I have no idea what causes them to do this or what I am doing wrong. They seem to display no signs of fear or aggression to me, but yet it doesn't feel like a "friendly" bite either and that is what confuses me most. Should I let them bite me like this? What are they trying to tell me? Is there any way I can stop it? It confuses me, and since it seems to have no real cause and predictability it also frightens me, as I feel like I don't understand what my rats are trying to tell me, and they might do worse things in the future if I don't watch out.
I don't want to be afraid of them, I want to give them all the love in the world and take them out many times a day to play with them. Right now, however, I feel like I cannot do that due my lack of understanding and fear. I really want some help and advice, so I can give my ratties the love and attention they deserve so much.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

It sounds like they're testing the waters and trying to see what they can get away with. When they get mouthy go "eep" so they know that they're hurting you.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

I should have read the whole post! Don't smear food on your hand until you have firmly established that hands are not edible. Rats have horrible eye sight but a wonderful sense of smell so Zelda most likely confused your hand for a tasty treat.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Just bop them (with love in your heart) and should "NO BITING' immediately when they nip you. They will learn that they shouldn't bite you very quickly.

Biting is the number one reason rats get re-homed or put to sleep. It's not cute nor is it normal and it can get worse. And the bite in the photo was no accidental nibble. Biting is always dealt with as a matter of life and death (for your rats) and addressed seriously. At this stage it's usually easily fixed.

Again, don't actually hurt your rats, but be firm enough so that they get the message in no uncertain terms.

Best luck


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

Sounds like completely normal food exploratory behavior to me. These are animals, anything covered in food, is food. Anything associated with food and presented in the same way as food, is food. They can be very Pavlovian about food and the lick, lick, bite approach is typical for testing what might be a new food type. Even of the "know" it is your hand this pattern can be elicited by the right small or association.

I suggest making sure your food offering gestures and handling offering gestures are completely different. And wash hands of any food residue before handling. When I handled a lot of rats at work I stopped even wearing rings or using nail polish as it can elicit the pattern of behavior that leads to a food strike from time to time.

IMHO a head bop with one finger can help with cheeky or dominance aggression, but a Pavlovian elcited food strike is conditioned by association, not learned from reward or punishment.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

My 3 were doing something like this tonight but I would EEP!!! at them, they seemed to think it was a game, if they keep up with this game tomorrow I get tough with them (small bop), I don't want them learning that even little bites are okay.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LOL, a little bop and shout fixes Pavlovian rats too.... It doesn't have to be outright aggression, but unless you have evidence to believe your rat is otherwise incapable of learning or under some form of extreme pain or stress, you never let it get away with biting.

There's another thread about someone debating whether to put a biting rat to sleep going on right now. Rats can do lots of dumb things that humans can forgive or fix later but biting is the number one reason aside from health that gets rats put down. It's mission critical that rats know biting humans is always a horrible decision. And to make matters even worse, one little unfortunate bite can put a toddler's eye out.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

Yup, nip it in the bud!


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

On it being a 'food strike', I am not sure, as she also does it when I put my hand in the cage without food. First sniff, then nibble/feel with her teeth, and then NIP, a harder bite which breaks the outer layers of skin but does no serious damage. I am so shocked each time I just quickly withdraw my hand and get away from them, completely forgetting the "EEP" or bop or anything.
Zelda licks baby food from my fingers without a single bite (but then again, I don't leave my hand in the cage much longer than a few extra seconds, so she can acknowledge really nothing is left, and don't leave it there longer), so I don't think the food caused the biting. As when they sniff even a little bit of baby food, they will lick, not bite. 

Also, doesn't "bopping" scare them? I mean, fear lies at the basis of aggression, and if they become terribly scared of me that won't help either. But neither will it help that I am scared of THEM. I really don't wanna give up on them, and I try to do the best possible, but I am not sure whether I am doing something wrong, or these are just quirky rats. I am just so puzzled by them :/


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Oh btw, I am wondering whether I can and maybe should, use gloves, just in case it gets worse (as she bit me a bit harder out of the blue too. Who knows when she will take the 'next step'? :s), I wonder... doesn't it freak them out even more though? As the gloves don't smell like "you", so for them it's a stranger coming into their cage. It are garden gloves, so they smell a bit "earthy". Will sleeping with them make them smell enough like "me"? Or should I at this point of mild biting not even think about gloves? (this kind of bites are no more painful than a pinch, I am just worried because I can't predict them and see whether they might bite harder in the future, because I don't know WHY they bite me)


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Erik Ezrin said:


> Also, doesn't "bopping" scare them?


Nope. My five do things they know they shouldn't; like earlier yesterday Thistle was trying her best to eat my book and I bopped her and said NO and she gave me a pouty huffed look and slinked away, probably planing her next attack on Brom's The Plucker :/
A bop doesn't scare, it should never ever be painful or malicious. It's meant to simply stop what they're doing and get their attention. Mine understand that when they get bopped it's time to quit whatever they're doing because "oh shoot, mummy caught us". They understand that they did something wrong and a bop teaches them not to do it again.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Okay, thanks. Just to make sure I got it straight: a "bop" basically is a soft tap on their noses, right? I shall give it a try and see if it helps. I really want the best for my ratties, and they are far from "a lost case" (I got a friend who told he knew "a lot" about rats (= NOT), I told more about him in the "meet my two girls" thread in the "meet my rat" forum. His rat (he has a lone rat) does the same and he refuses to get her a buddy and a bigger cage and is even thinking to sell her as snake food because he isn't willing to pay for getting her in a shelter. That just makes me sick! She isn't even truly aggressive, just scared, lonely and shy :c )


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

A bop can be anywhere but i usually bop em on their noggin. As for your friends girl, is there anyway you could take her in? You could even rehome her later on, it'd be worlds better than the death he's thinking of giving her!!


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

I don't think my cage is big enough for three rats (this is an image of it)








But I am looking for someone else who is willing to take her in (preferably someone with a bit of experience to start with, as she isn't as messed up as the rat who is being talked about in the "putting down" thread, but she is definitely introverted and easily scared. Probably bored and lonely too, as she just has a tiny cage on her own :c)
If really no one can take her and he goes on with his plan to make her into snake food, I am going to pay to get her into a shelter, because everything is better than being eaten alive by a snake. I think he should pay it himself, as it is HIS rat, not mine, but I just can't let her be eaten.
He says he doesn't want to pay for "the pet shop's mistakes" because they sold him a "messed up rat" (I think it also is partially his own fault, because he keeps her alone in a tiny space n all, but even if it were sole the pet shops/breeder's "fault", that doesn't mean you can make the rat pay with her life for it, IMO)

And the worst of all... he bragged to me about knowing "everything" about rats, being a "pro" in caring for them and having "lots of experience". I am really quite angry with him for it.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Oh by the way, I am going to film their behaviour soon, so other people can see better whether it is friendly or not. I am using gloves now, just in case, and because it makes me more daring and less nervous when I interact with them. Otherwise they might sense my nerves and get on edge too. I hope this doesn't hinder bonding (as that they bond with the gloves rather than my hands :/ lol), or that it will confuse them.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats are very intelligent, and they can and will understand you and try and tell you things, to some degree like dogs, to some degree like children. If you get a chance read the immersion thread or at least the first few pages.

You don't bop or swat them to punish them, but to communicate that their behavior is wrong. Like a mom might very rarely bop or swat a child on the hands... not to be confused with beating them senseless. It reinforces the NO. And the rat learns not to do something. 

It should be used very rarely and in circumstances when it's very important for your rat to understand you very clearly. Mostly some rats learn you really aren't going to hurt them so they learn to ignore the bop so it becomes less and less effective.... But biting must always be stopped fast. It's about the worst thing your rats can do.

Remember a friendly bite in the eye and an aggressive bite in the eye can both cause blindness. This is one of those rare cases where we don't need worry too much about motivation... Now once you've fixed the biting then communication should be all about love and joy and friendship to build a strong pack bond and relationship. And you should be trying to figure out what your rats are telling you. 

If you come to my home, certainly you will be welcome and you can ask me anything and we can discuss it, but if you show up with a gun and ask me for money, you won't get a warm welcome. There are some behaviors that are wrong in themselves and just can't be negotiated. If you want to talk to me, leave the gun home and knock on my door politely. If your rat wants something from you, it still can't bite you. 

If it is being aggressive and pushing you around, read the immersion thread on how to fix that social dynamic. You are the alpha and you are in charge and your rat can't push you around.

Hard hearted and cruel people shouldn't own pets, but you can't allow your rats to frighten you in your own home either. You can't allow 400 g animals to push you around. You need to be the parent or leader of your family and set the rules. No biting is always rule #1. And gloves won't confuse your rats, they will know it's still you.... Wear gloves or whatever to avoid bites until your problem is fixed.

Best luck.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Aye, thanks a lot Rat Daddy, I checked out the immersion thread and it is very helpful. Yet also a lot to take in, as it gives such a different perspective on things. Thanks for writing it.

I am bopping her all the time when she bites me now. Snoopy is the main problem, as she is very eager to bite, whereas Zelda is more relaxed and doesn't QUICKLY bite (but that doesnt mean NOT, as you can see by the photo), today I decided to just wear gloves, because then I feel a lot calmer myself, also daring to take more risks and be more stern towards them, and Zelda even let me stroke her. Okay, I don't think she ENJOYED it, but she did not bite me or skitter away. Snoopy however, tried to bite me the entire time, so she needs some more work.

I will keep you guys posted on how it's going.


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

The reason punishment works poorly if it is a Pavlovian food bite, which is not aggressive ir is foraging, is that they never intended to hurt you. It's barely even deliberate so they don't know what they did wrong. And IMHO we are the one in control so if we can fix it with our behavior, that is easier for everyone.


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

Not the nose, the top of the head. And yes it is unpleasant, that's why it deters behavior. I try to avoid situations that require it even though it is only a very mild punisher. Because positive is better IMHO.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't believe in punishing rats, rather in communicating to them.... And sometimes we just have to say NO.

With wild and part wild rats, I believe in giving them more leeway... They are hot wired and need lots of understanding... Blind rats might need special care too.... But if you adopt a wild rat you know better than to take it to your kids daycare center and let the toddlers have at it. And if you have a blind rat you can't expect it to recognize your hand when you reach into the cage and grab it...

But for normal rats, biting can never be tolerated, they can learn and part of respecting them is treating them like responsible animals and teaching them how to live in a mixed rat and human household... Rats that bite have crummy caged lives at best. Rats that can safely socialize with humans live better and more interesting lives. 

It might take some work, but once your rats are fixed things will be much better for you and them.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Aye I agree, as I feel like I can only fully start to socialise and train them when they stop biting (except the pavlovian bite, but I assure you it wasn't. Especially snoopy tries to bite my fingers the first moment I stick them in the cage)
Though I don't believe they are truly aggressive, as when they were, they would bite much harder, puff up fur, maybe even leap at me, etc. and they didn't. (if they did I'd have them rehomed with an experienced rat owner, as that would simply be TOO MUCH for my first rats) Also can I still replace water, food, everything, without them instantly lunging at my fingers.

Also, what works better? A high ratlike "EEP" or a stern "NO"? 
And is there anything else I can do? I am reading about immersion, but it's a lot to take in.

Oh by the way, good news on my friend's rat. I talked to him and he has come to reason about selling her as snakefood, he came back from his decision and a good friend who has 6 other rats and a lot of experience is going to take her in this friday.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Also, should I maybe get into a mock fight with Snoopy and flip her over and such, to show I'm the alpha and all, and you do NOT BITE ME!
I don't feel like Zelda needs such measures, as she's more gentle most of the time and doesn't rush over to me to bite, which Snoopy will.


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## Erik Ezrin (Jul 17, 2014)

Also, they don't really want to be petted. How can I make them like it? I don't want to force it too much either, because that might stress them a lot.

Rat Daddy, is there somewhere in the thread a step-by-step guide on how to do immersion? It is very helpful, but all the (albeit very interesting) extra info is making it hard to keep track of everything.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Much of immersion is done on the fly you engage your rats and they respond to you, you evaluate this response as either friendly, curious, indifferent, fear or aggressive and then you reply appropriately. If it's friendly, you offer to play, if it's curious you help them explore you, it it's indifferent you try and reach out more to get their attention and if it's aggressive, you fight back and establish your role as the parent. It's all about communication. Rats are very clever and they do things to communicate with you... in other words when your rats bite they are saying something and they expect the right answer.

By understanding as much about immersion theory as you can and reading along, you will start to understand your rats when they communicate with you and how to communicate with them.

It is really very simple. It's like driving a car. Once you drive a few hundred miles everything just makes sense... you see a stop sign and stop, and you see a child stepping out into the road and you swerve... It's very easy... But imagine if I were teaching you to drive a car without an actual car present... How could I explain all of the simple decisions you would need to make to get from your home to your work? How do I explain where to start your turns, what to do if a tree is in the road in front of you... or if the car in front of you stops suddenly? 

I could show you how to drive in perhaps an hour or two, but it would take thousands of pages of text to fully explain if you had never seen a car before.

There's a post by ratclaws a few pages in that sort of sets up a guideline, but mostly read the thread to get the idea on how everything works and the kinds of things that will happen. For the most part, everything will make sense when you actually sit down in the immersion area with your rats. When your rats do something you will recognize it and reply appropriately. Like if I tell you to watch for a big red sign on the corner of an intersection and if you see one you should stop... If you have never seen a stop sign this would seem confusing, but when you are driving for the first time and see your first big red sign and everybody else stopping there... you will say to yourself... "That must be the big red stop sign the fellow was talking about." If I never told you about stop signs you would crash, but having never seen one it doesn't make sense until you are actually driving the car.

I prefer NO to EEEP, neither is actually native rat language so if a rat has to learn one word or another it might as well learn NO from the start. In any event you are not squeaking in submission, you are demonstrating your superior status and ordering your rat not to bite you... NO seems more appropriate and useful going forward to me.

And certainly if your rat playfights with you play fight back... But remember rats don't actually draw blood or hurt you when they play fight. My part wild rat lunged into my face and bit my nose and face several times very quickly... it was terrifying, but she didn't leave a single mark... It was only play. And yes, I ended each play session by grabbing her and skritching her to thank her for playing and being submissive. But she did not use any real force so either did I. 

When that rat grew up and went native outdoors she chased away the wild cats... It was clear that in playfighting she went for the face to do real damage to a larger opponent... I suspect in the real world she ripped up a few cats faces before they learned to stay far away from her... In play she was harmless, when she grew up she tore open my neighbor's hand so fast he couldn't drop her before he was a bloody mess, and he was special forces, just back from Iraq... And thankfully too macho to go to the hospital. 

Get gloves or oven mitts armor up, protect your eyes and sit down with your rats, engage them... basically just say HI... and see what happens... it may become playful or it may turn violent... (if you are dealing with an aggressive rat, you only immerse one rat at a time) two rats can distract you and you can get hurt.

Once you've read enough of the immersion thread to feel you have a basic understanding just go for it and give it a try... Plan to commit a few hours to the project and see how it goes. Once you have established basic communication and your rats understand you are in charge things between you will change, you will see it and feel it and everything you read will become clear... 

And by the way, I've never been to the Netherlands, but I'm assuming you have some form of red sign on street corners that implies that a driver should stop... I'm guessing knowing that such a sign exists, the first or second time I see one, I will figure out what it is and not go careening through the intersection. This is about how your first immersion will go... "Oh look he's charging me and biting my glove... that must be aggression... and I respond to aggression with appropriate force to defend myself and show the rat that aggression doesn't work." Or "He's rolled over on his back... this is submission... I should reward this with belly skritches..." Or "He's hiding in the corner... he must be afraid... and I should try and coax him out with soft talk and treats..." It's engage, get his response and reply appropriately... it's as easy as driving a car or a bicycle one you've done it.

I know it all seems somewhat confusing, but it will make perfect sense when you actually do immersion.


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