# Researching before getting Rats



## EllenFitz86 (Jul 14, 2012)

Hello!

I thought it might be easy to ask just a few broad questions to start off because I'm just starting my research to prepare to adopt a few rats next year  I've been interested in rats for a number of years, and I finally decided that I really would like to own some, and wanted to start researching in advance. I had mice as a child, then guinea pigs. When I turned 20 I adopted my first male chinchilla, which was 5 years ago.  I now have 4 boys, who all live in their own separate Ferret Nation 142's. (Male chins do not always pair well, and even bonded males can turn on each other with little to no warning and seriously injure/kill each other. I didn't feel it was worth risking their lives just to share a cage, along with the fact that none of them want to get along with each other, even just for playtime.) 

So that being said, I'm not new to rodents or small pets, but I'm used to chinchillas and their needs. They can't have plastic in their cages, they have a strict herbivore diet, the cannot have fresh fruits/veggies, no sugar, etc. In other words, at a cursory glance, I know that rats will have different dietary needs, and will probably have different options for cage decor, along with just being completely different critters that I need to educate myself on! I learned with my chinchillas that the little pamphlets at the pet stores are usually not the best source of info on animal husbandry, and just like I researched for months before getting chins, I want to do the same for rats!

I actually already have a cage on the way to gradually work on setting up, it's this one here: http://www.amazon.com/Super-Pet-Del...F8&qid=1342299976&sr=8-1&keywords=ferret+cage (my friend had one for her chinchilla initially, and then gave it to her friend who had rats, and while it wasn't an ideal home for a chin, she said it worked out great for the rats!) I was hoping to get 2 or 3 females  (I actually e-mailed Sweet Genes last night and asked if I could be put on the waitlist, just thinking ahead!)

Now, for some questions!

1. Are the plastic shelves acceptable, or is it recommended to make wood shelves? Are there woods I should not use? (pine is what we use for chins, but I read the pine oils are bad for rats.)

2. Bedding: I'm getting the idea that wood shavings are a bad idea. Do you use liners and a litter pan with something like carefresh? What's best?

3. Cage decor/ toys: What sorts of things can rats have in their cages? What sort of things do they tend to enjoy most? I can sew hammocks, make hanging tubes, pillows, and blankets. Are there preferred fabrics? I'd love to hear ideas, or see pictures of a similar cage decked out!

4. Diet: What diet do you recommend? I've seen some "soy free" diets mentioned, then read another write up saying "soy is good for unspayed females". 

5. Vet visits? I know in the chin community, the only time we vet our chins is when there is a problem or suspected issue (or getting a surrender from a bad home.) They don't get injections or wellness checks. Are rats the same? I actually work for an animal hospital (the 2 doctors are brother and sister, both small animal vets. Dr. Liz is crazy about rats and has owned them for years  )


6. General good to know info/ topics I should research: Any basic info you feel is important for a first-time rat parent to know, or stuff I should research (even if you want to post links to threads). 


I hope this is ok to post, I just kinda wanted to cover a few of my bigger questions in one fell swoop. Thank you so much in advance!


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## Keelyrawr (Mar 7, 2012)

I think It's awesome that you're going to get some Ratties! I'll do my best to answer your questions.

1. Definitely use plastic shelves. The wood ones will absorb pee and smell terrible in a short amount of time. 

2. Pine and Cedar shavings are terrible for rats, because they have such terrible respiratory issues. A lot of people use Aspen, Carefresh, Yesterday's News, or Line their cages with Fleece. I personally use Carefresh for the bottom of my Rats cage, and I line their Shelves with fleece.

3. Yes, Definitely fabrics! A lot of Rats really enjoy Hammocks, Hanging Tubes, Cubes, and all that good stuff. I just cut up fleece blankets or old t-shirts and use those.
Rats also like Hanging toys. Ropes, baskets, ladders, ect. The more the merrier. Check out this http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?39503-Toys-and-Fun-Ideas-for-Rats section for more information on Toys. Check out this http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?46885-Cage-Pic-Thread-(No-chat) or this http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?33279-How-to-Make-Cage-Accessories for pics/info on making accessories.

4. Not sure about the whole "Soy" thing, but I feed my Rats Lab Blocks (There's a big debate about the best kind, just look at some other threads people have posted), and Fresh daily fruits, veggies, and treats. That includes Kale, Romaine Lettuce, Corn, Carrots, Blueberries, Bananas, Cheerios, ect. (Not all in one day of course, I spread them out through ought the week)

5. Rats are prone to getting Upper respiratory infections, so vet visits could occur somewhat frequently. You'll get to know your rats really well and be able to tell when It's time for a check-up.

6. Be sure to get AT LEAST 2 Rats. Preferably 3 or even 4 ;-) Rats need friends and company, just as we do. They also need a few hours a day (usually 1-3 hours) of "Free Range" time. Whether it be on your bed, floor, or just on your shoulder walking around the house. Unlike Chins, Rats usually only live to be 2-3 yrs old. Enjoy every second of your time with them. Be sure NEVER to house Males/Females together.. They will breed and produce very large litters. Male and Female rats are both pretty wild when they're young, but Males calm down a lot as they get older (Most of the time)

Hope I helped!


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

good for you doing your research first!

That is a nice cage, I thought about getting it myself. But the bar spacing is a bit wide for younger rats/smaller females. It might be something to think about. I love the critternation cages myself- perfect bar spacing & great cages. The martin cages are popular as well.

1. The plastic shelves are fine. They will get peed on alot and it can be a pain to clean lol. But with your pets I am sure you know your way around cage cleaning already lol. I would not use wood because eww it will get pee soaked right through lol. You can use wire shelves, alot of people take like shelves you get for closet organizing and hook them up. But the plastic is fine if you don't mind it. I had a cage similar to that before and my sister had one similar for her ferrets they were not easy to clean and annoyed me lol

2. I use aspen shavings in my girls litterbox and then newspaper underneath fleece for cage/shelve lining. I love fleece, its cute, comfy and easy to clean.

3. They love hammocks and fleece beds- though some rats can be chewers. Anything for ferrets is fine for rats probably. Tunnels. Baskets hung up, cat balls, ropes. I love to throw in old boxes that they love playing/sleeping in.

4. There are different opinions and I just suggest doing alot of research before you decide on what to feed them. I like the idea of feeding a base (a lab block), a homemade mix for variety and then fresh veggies and fruit daily. I like oxbow for my base.


6. As Keelyrawr said you need atleast two rats or more. They are super social and need friends. Obviously two of the same sex unless you get one or both fixed. But you can house males together though sometimes you will want to get them neutered to prevent any fighting as they get older- I don't have males but that is from what I have read.

Rats are the best and you will be addicted once you get them I warn you lol


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## Siringo (May 7, 2012)

1. Plastic should be fine. Your rats will likely chew on it, but it's better than mesh or wood levels IMO. Although it looks like that cage has 1" bar spacing? If so, you may need to wrap chicken wire around it, as young girlies may be able to get through it.

2. I use Aspen bedding, but soon I'll be switching to fleece/flannel lining, and a litter pan with soft-granule Litter, because it looks nicer, and is less messy, but will need to be changed frequently.

3. It looks like you already have the hammock idea down. Most people prefer fleece, because it doesn't fray so toes don't get caught. Check out the Cage pic threads for some ideas~ If you google toys for rats, you'll find tons of ideas for DIY toys. Here is my favorite page to find cage ideas - http://www.squidoo.com/homemade-rat-cages-and-toys (Lead by JessyGene on this forum  Her page includes stuff about a bonding pouch, which could be valuable in trust training new rats.

4. I personally recommend high quality lab blocks. Don't buy commercial brands kept in pet stores. You'll probably have to order them. Top brands include Oxbow Regal Rat (my favorite), Mazuri, and Harlan Teklad. + Fresh veggies at least a few times a week. Treats are a great way to your ratty's heart. Baby food or cereal make great treats. You can also teach your rats tricks via treats! Liquid treats on a spoon are handy for trust training, as your rat cannot take the treat and run from you.

5. You will need to familiarize yourself with a vet that can treat rats. Since rats are so susceptible to illness, you must be prepared to spend $100 per rat in vet bills/meds. There's a great thread in Rat Health section on signs and symptoms on when to take your rat to the vet!

6. Rats are thought of as easy pets, but I disagree! Cage cleaning every few days (depending on how many rats), lots of time set aside to dedicate to playing with/trust training your girlies, and quite a bit of money towards vet and toys. A large portion of the process will be trial and error as you learn what your individual rats needs are. It's all worth it though. Rats are amazing. Good luck with your future ratties! It's great that you're taking the time to learn beforehand.


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## kriminologie (Mar 16, 2012)

I have that cage for a pair of my boys! Babies for sure and even small adult females would be able to squeeze out. My boys are fine though, even my tiny guy. I use it without the ramp or slide, and I like that the shelves are very secure. My boys aren't chewers so there's been very little gnawing of the holes in the shelves and that's it. It's easy to decorate and clean for the most part.


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## EllenFitz86 (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you guys so much for all the advice thus far! I'm so excited, even though it may be a year until I get them... I've already started 'nesting' ! I bought a bunch of fleece so I could go ahead and get a bunch of stuff sewn for the cage, and I picked up a few other odds and ends like bowls, and a few toys. Since I know it takes a while to deck a cage out to my liking, I like to start early!

As far as the shevles, I'm glad I can leave the plastic in, I have no issues making shelves (all 4 of my chinchilla's cages are fitted with custom pine shelves) but my chinchillas are mostly good and don't pee on them. My one went through a phases where he did, and gosh they got nasty! He's got new ones now, that I covered with granite that's cut to fit, so i can wipe it off is he pees on it  I admit, it's nice knowing I can just leave the plastic shelving in!

I know I definitely want girls, and I think I've settled on getting 3  I'm hoping I can buy them from Sweet Genes Rodentry, and it would be lovely to get 3 girls from the same litter if possible 

Rats seem like so much fun! I love little critters and it seems like a lot of fun to offer fresh foods/ share food with the rats. I adore my chinchillas, but they are much happier in their cage verses being held. only one out of my 4 actually seems to like being held, but after a little while he's antsy to go back home. They like coming out for playtime, but those who like being pet and all would rather be scritched in their cage instead of being taken out to be held. I knew this before I got them, and I love them to bits  But I think it'll also be fun to have some social little critters who will enjoy hanging out with me and all  My boyfriend is excited to have rats too  He's the one who surprised me and purchased the cage!

For the bar spacing, I do believe it's 1" , and wondered if I would need to wrap it in chicken wire or something. Do you guys believe I'll only need to have it wrapped until they're full grown? Or does it depend on how big they get?

Thanks for helping me with all my questions!


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## Siringo (May 7, 2012)

It's pretty likely that even a large adult female could get through 1" bar spacing. I don't have experience with that, but my girls are full grown and they wouldn't have any trouble squeezing their heads through. I would start looking for another cage, or exchanging that one if possible. Good luck!


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I don't see that cage working out very well with girls. You'd have to purchase hardware cloth and wrap it permanently.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

1. yes, though personally I prefer wire shelfs (with 1/4 or smaller spacing, anything bigger can hurt a rat's foot) simply because rats tend to pee Everywhere, and on plastic shelves it can pool up, of coarse you can always cover levels with fleece with helps with this issues, and if you can put fleece on the levels thats your best option, just make sure to wash it frequently. wire shelfs don't lead to bumble foot, dirty shelves do, so just make sure that you keep their cage very Very clean.

2. No cedar or pine, Aspen and Hemp are the best with smell from what I know, carefresh has too much dust for rats (or most animals for that matter) Yesterday's news can be used. I just got it for my rats and they love it. you can find it in the cat section.

3. Rats like to climb, and run, and to have a place to sleep. hammocks will work, even just hanging up something like a large hamster ball in their cage will make them happy. if your good with crocheting you can crochet them hammocks as well. my rats prefer boxes over everything else, they are not a big fan of those plastic igloos, or wooden stuff, but they love edible logs.

4. Diet is always debated. my rats live on a 100% fresh foods Vegetarian diet (they get cooked eggs every other week or so). my rats have always been healthy, happy, and even in their old age they are extremely hyper and energetic, so I see nothing wrong with my diet, and I'm Not changing it. Rats do not have gal bladders, and unlike humans who have theirs removed, rats never learn to digest meat fats, reason my guys are on their vegetarian diet (better safe then sorry). digesting meat fats can cause cancer and tumors. Unsure about soy. try to avoid dried corn. fresh or frozen corn is good, but its even better if you boil it first due to a fungi that grows on most corns that is harmless to humans but can cause cancer in rats (but it takes a large amount). I prefer 100% fresh foods diet, but since your new, I would try to find a good lab block, do your research, and slowly switch them over. mainly because 99% of lab blocks have stuff rats cant digest, "meals" which just mean the left over stuff humans cant eat, and sometimes even wrong vitamins and minerals, protein levels, fat levels. Overall look for something without corn or meat mills (not because of the meat fat thing, just because its old rotten animal meat "leftovers" they tend to put in it) with a protein level between 14% and 16%. if you can find one with fat at 5% that would be better. theres already a few fresh foods diet topics started around I think. If you get males don't feed them citrus, can cause cancer. Also I highly recommend a blueberry a day, blueberries have the highest concentration of cancer fighting antibiotics of any foods (blackberries following in second), and for rat pups (under 3 months) you can give them some cooked eggs, mealworms or crickets (farm raised, not wild), or even a small amount of cooked fish or white chicken/white meat.

5. with a good diet and good genetics rats are typically healthy. they are very prone to respitory illnesses though. Cancer and tumors are also common (but as I've mentioned, typically meat fat free diets and blueberries everyday prevents these) more so in females then males. A lot of rats, more then some people think, are actually prone to heart disease and strokes, so watch for that too. they can also get cataracts in their eyes, but since rats have around 600/20 to up to 1600/20 vision, it doesn't affect them. rats don't have to go to the vet for check ups like dogs or cats.

6. I prefer rats to be in Trios, just on the off set that one dies your not stuck with the "I have one rat, what do I do know?" situation, which can be very stressful on the rat and you. Do your research on cages, diet, really, everything about rats. If you can try to find a good breeder or rescue in your area. if not available, go to your local pet stores, look at All their animals daily on different days at different times. look for a pet store where their animals are in clean enviornments, always have food, always have water, their social animals are in groups, non social solitary. when you pick out your rat, don't do it with how cute they are, put your hand in. if they jump up your arm or are calm when held their a keeper. if they are interested in you, good start, not interested in anything, might want to shy away, and if they are terrified of you, not a good pick. try to make sure they are healthy as well, but temperament is more important then health. I did this, I found a good pet store, and all my rats have been from there, and have been extremely nice and friendly, and with a good diet, healthy. the rat lady there even called them Ratties, a true sign of a rat lover, and did seem some what concerned with where the rats went, at lease I assume she it did seem like she handled the rats quite often.


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## never-sleep (Mar 3, 2012)

I use wooden shelves in a modified bird cage. But, you would have to be prepared to replace them now and then. I would prefer to have plastic, but since my cage is so large and didn't come with shelves, I had to improvise.


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## Serena-t (Jul 17, 2012)

Hello, 

here in Germany we prefere wooden shelves, 'cause you can get the prefered, for the cage fiting size more flexible than plastic (which mostly have a pre-defined size). 

Against the pee problem we paint them with unpoisonous acrylic paint (the one that is qualified for children's toys). 
3-5 layers of paint and you can easily wipe away any pee from the wooden shelves.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I so wish more people asked these questions...


Buy only just wiened rats... as young as possible, as soon as they have teeth! They will pretty much bond to you at the store or breeder's. This should not be negotiable for a first time owner. Experienced rat owners with time can usually socialize almost any rat, but you absolutely don't need the challenge. 

Although wild type or part wild rats can become great friends, they don't exactly make for easy pets. It's best to know your baby rat came from a reputable breeder or at least a commercial rat farm. Rat genetics being what they are, just because a rat looks domestic doesn't mean that it is.

Choose black or brown eyed rats, they usually have better vision and are less likely to panic and bite.

Pick rats that have light colors that make them easier to find and less likely to frighten people.

Be choosey! There are millions of rats that need a good home, you can't save them all. Of two rat pups in the store (among many others) there was a lovely capped blue and a mismarked silver grey caped rex, the capped blue jumped off my hand about 7 times and took a nip at me... the silver grey rex snuggled right into my palm... guess which one came home with me. There was also a gorgeous tan caped rex... but it had ruby eyes. Although there was not a single rat in the store that couldn't have worked for me... I could only pick one, and I think I did pretty well. 

Also if the rat is sick, too small, lumpy or otherwise deformed, leave it go. Healthy baby rats sell for about $3.00 herabouts, vet visits start at about $80.00. 

For a first rat avoid the hairless, manx or any deformities/mutations that will require special care. "Normal" rats will be plenty challenging enough.

Plan a few hours of play with your rats each day. And always remember they are pack animals just like dogs, in fact if you think of them as puppies you will do better with them... so be their alpha, play with them but don't ever let them push you around.

As to cages, bedding, food etc... (and likely everyone is going to disagree) rats are pretty easy. If you start out with the right rats and invest the time it takes to really pack bond with them, the rest will usually work out pretty naturally.

My last comment is that rats are "short lives". You will very much fall in love with them and it will break your heart when they die, and it's always too soon. But if you make every day with your ratties count, they will share a lifetime of joy with you in whatever time you have together.

Good luck


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## EllenFitz86 (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you all so much for your help and suggestions!
I definitely want to do right by animal animal I adopt into my family  

I think I've devised a good system for fleece coverings for the shelves so the can be easily tacked down, and easily removed for cleaning.  I bought a bunch of fleece and I'm trying to get my sewing started now so I will be completely set by the time they can come home!

For fleece shelf coverings, how often do you take them out to wash them? This will help me figure out how many to make so I can have enough to change out and do critter laundry once a week  (in other words, I would make enough sets to get me through a week or two )

As far as litter, for a cage with 3 girls, would you completely dump the litter pan each day, or every other day? I know that some of these things will be a little more obvious once i have them and see how quickly things get soiled, but I'm just curious  The newspaper pellets sound like a great option, so that will probably be what's in the litterbox. (There will be a fleece liner on the floor of their cage with a corner litter pan). 

I have definitely decided on 3 girls, in fact, I secured a spot on the waiting list with the breeder for spring/summer of next year! My future girls will be from here: http://www.sweetgenes.com/ I am SO excited! I will get to pick them out soon after they're born and watch them grow via pictures until they come home!

I have already started 'nesting'! I know it's a ways off but I get so excited, I'm having fun plotting out everything to put in their cage, toys to get them, and name ideas! (my poor boyfriend, if I'm this crazy about new fur-babies, I'm going to be insane when it comes time to nest for a human baby ! haha! ) My boyfriend Darren is really excited too! We both are huge animal lovers, and we adore our chins, but we're looking forward to having ratties that will truly enjoy being out of the cage with us. Our chins like attention to an extent, and some more than others, but in general, being held is stressful for 3 out of 4 of them, so we play with them in their play area/ in their cage because that's more enjoyable for them. 

Another question for you guys, as far as vets, do you prefer seeing exotics vets for your rats, or do you see regular small animal vets? I work part-time for a small animal vet (they mainly treat dogs and cats, but we have had rats in before. One of our vets has 2-3 rats at minimum at any one time, she loves them!) I've worked for them for 10 years and trust them. Though because neither Dr. Walter or Dr. Liz do not specialize in exotics, my chins go to a vet that does (Ness Exotics) So I have a good exotics vet as well. I'm just curious how you guys feel about where to take them. 

Sorry if my thoughts seem jumbled at times! I just have lots of questions and I'm eager to learn


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Ok, going off of what someone said, let me clear a few things. You should never pick a rat based on its coloration or pattern or even eye color. yes pink eyed rats have worse vision, so what? I'm near sighted, doesn't make me more "aggressive" or 'easily frighten" then someone with perfect 20/20 vision. Pick the rat that is the most friendly and healthy, rather its an Albino or black self, or even an agouti self. Yes I do agree that for a first time rat owner a hairless or manx might not be best, and its very risky to get a manx from anywhere but a very established breeder who knows what they are doing, if that's your only option in the friendly rat department, take it. you can always ask questions on here or ask a responsible breeder to help you out.
Also don't buy just weaned rats. here is why, at pet stores they wean rats at 3 weeks old, when they should still be with their mother. they are basically children just learning to walk and talk. When you get them this young, especially by themselves, they may not know how to interact with rats cause at this point they are just learning how to. once again if that's your only option, take it, but just be aware of this. my little dumbo rat Storm (who is my 3rd/4th rat) I got at around 3 weeks old. he had just arrived in the store that day, and was all alone in his enclosure. he's a nice rat, somewhat skittish I could say, and somewhat of a hot head, but I love him and he's a good rat, but not something a first time rat owner would want. its best to get a rat between 4 and 8 weeks old. at this point they are old enough to be away from mom, and young enough to not have developed hormones. Any younger then this and they can have temperamental problems, even health issues. the only reason you should take a rat away from its mother if its under 2 weeks old and your hand raising it for some reason. and Yes there were test done (well on pigs weaned at 3 weeks when they should of been weaned at 12) and the ones weaned early had a lower IQ and were less confident then their weaned normally counter parts. in fact all responsible breeders will not let you adopt a rat under 5 weeks old because of stuff like this, the normal being not under 6 weeks. a good rat will bond to you at any age, if you have to get a rat at a young age to make it friendly to you, that rat is not good for a first time rat owner, or really any rat owner.
Also i've had black eyed rats, you know the ones who can see the best, bite me more then their ruby and pink eyed companions. Einstein, a black eyed guy, I swore was blind, i'm not talking near sighted, I mean literally blind.
Get the rat that makes you feel happy, which normally is a friendly rat. my first two rats (Charles, a fawn hooded, and Einstein, a black hooded) were amazing. Charles, who is going on his second birthday, is very friendly, loves people, loves animals, loves to explore, loves crackers, and even though he's old, he doesn't like to sit still all that long. Einstein was a weird guy, he died last year (yesterday was his one year death anniversery I guess you can say) but he was amazing in his own way. he was a bit of a shy guy, but he loved to hang on to people's shirts like a possum, giving him his nickname, and he always bit our cat's tail and went carpet skiing. yes he was the type of rat most people wouldn't want, he was always sick, and not the most people friendly rat out there, but I loved him. I then got Storm, a black variberk dumbo, and Soda, a beige hooded, who as soon as I put my hand in that tank he pounced up my arm put his nose in my ear, and started boggling away like crazy (ever since then I don't think i've ever seen a day he hasn't been boggling non stop, he's just a happy rat by nature) I could of gotten other rats that might have been friendlier or healthier, or more to the male "standard" of being Lazy, but I love my hyper boys.
Get the rats that make you happy, if your only option for a rat that makes you happy is a one year old albino guy, doesn't mean you can't take a chance with him and have to get the pretty blue hooded who keeps biting people and drawing blood who's 5 weeks old. Also it doesn't matter if your rat is a blue hooded or an agouti, there a lot of people out there who no matter the pattern or color will always think rats are disgusting, so just get the rats you like. I mean, some people on here may hate Albinos, but personally, they are my favorite kind of rat, so everyone has a different opinion on what rats are "acceptable"
Sorry for this being long, I just hate it when people do "only get light colored" rats because they are "less scary". Yes hooded rats don't scare people as much as solid color rats, but a solid color rat is no different from a hooded rat in terms of what is really important to a first time rat owner, or any rat owner. Color and pattern come last among all things in the rat world.
Oh also by the way, don't get from a commercial rat farm Unless you have good standings with them, that sounded weird, but most good "rat farms" will let you come in and take a look, cause they have nothing to hide, and if they don't let you come in and see, they are doing something that not even snake people agree with.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Oops, I guess we posted at the same time. Sorry about that rant then. Sweet genes is an amazing breeder, she helped me out with a few questions when I was wondering about breeding my self (I'm still wanting to do it, when I have more time, room, and money) so its good that you picked a good friendly breeder who is also very knowledgable.

With fleece most people change them about once a week, though depending on your rats, it might be twice a week.
For the bedding, I clean my cage out fully (so all litter) 2 to 3 times a week, with my guy's litter box we try to do spot cleaning every day. so since your going to use litter boxes only, about every day to every other day.

For vets its best to go to an exotic vet, though if your vet has good knowledge in rats, that could be a plus and you might want to use both of them. reason I'll go with the exotic vet is simply because they have more knowledge of surgeries, and medicines for rats.


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## EllenFitz86 (Jul 14, 2012)

Lightning Wolf-
Don't worry, I completely understand your thoughts on choosing rats based on personality vs. looks. It's like people with dog breeds, pick an animal based on what suits you best, not because "I like how this one looks". This is why we end up with people with totally out of control dogs, because they picked a high-energy dog who needed an experienced owner, when they had no idea what they were doing. ...it's a rough analogy, but similar concept. I think huskies are pretty dogs, but I wouldn't adopt one because their traits don't suit my lifestyle. This is why I believe researching before you adopt any animal is essential, know that the animal is a good fit for your home before you adopt them. It's far harder on the animal to be returned, or worse, dumped in a shelter because you discovered afterwards that it wasn't what you thought. 
Thank you though, I appreciate you expressing that, and it's very good advice  I'm with you 100%!

I'm glad to hear more positive feedback on Sweet Genes! She seems very nice, and seems to be everything a good breeder should be! I was so pleased to find a good, responsible breeder in my area that breeds for happy, healthy animals, verses a large volume. I cannot wait to get a trio of girls from her!

As far as the fleece, that's good to know! I can make 3-4 sets and know I'll always have clean stuff between washes! 

I only have one litter box currently purchased, should I have more than one? Changing the litter every day is certainly no big deal  

As far as the vets, that's also good to know. I was very adamant about finding a good exotics vet because of my chinchillas (and I'm thankful I found one, I had 2 scares with their teeth (chinchillas can have teeth issues like malocclusion and root elongation) and had to have skull radiographs done on 2 of my boys.) I knew that Dr. Ness knew exactly what to look for, as well as how to properly medicate my chins. It was a major piece of mind since I had seen a couple people who obviously didn't have a clue. The one asked me "has your chinchilla had any nausea or vomiting?" .... red flag #1 , like rats, chins cannot physically vomit! If I'm the owner and know more than the vet, we have a problem.  But I do have a good vet now to rely on! Plus in a pinch, there is a local animal hospital that usually has an exotics vet on staff, and they are a walk-in clinic. They're 10 minutes away and good if you need to see someone ASAP and can't get in to the other vet right away.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

To dispell any confusion.... I'm not advocating choosing rats by looks over personality... I did take the nice silver grey caped rex home rather than the screwed up blue. I would choose personality over looks anyday.... But given that I looked at hundreds of rats before I picked my new rattie, I actually choose for both. Yes, it was still a compromise but a good one.

My point was to choose among the rats with good health and personalities and for the other traits that will make your and your rats life easier. Be picky.

As to buying rats from a breeder, most will require the rat to be at least 6 weeks old... that is actually the most proper definition of just weaned and a perfect age for a rattie that has had happy human contact from birth. In a pet shop however by six weeks old the rat pups are already going to have been fed to reptiles or screwed up by mishandling. Yes 3 week old rats socialized by people actually prefer the company of people over other rats... but my 19 oz big girl that I got at 3 weeks old is doing pretty well with my new 3 week old, even if she doesn't actually prefer her company to ours. So it's not that much of a problem.

As to the benefits of pink or red eyed rats, older unsocialized rats, and rats that are likely to scare people; I personally don't see any for the first time rat owner. Really... not to be arguementative... I don't. I agree with the assessment that people should buy rats that make them happy. But for the most part healthy, friendly, personable, well socialized rats that can see well and are easier to see and not step on in the dark and don't scare people are going to make most people new to rats happier.

And yes, I know, wild type, sickly rats, scarey rats, peculiar rats, older rats, blind and even ill tempered rats can make perfect pets for the right person. I've had a part wild rat I loved, a friend has had a hairless rat with a huge tumor she loved, another friend has an ill-tempered one eyed rat she loves and plenty of people have bought older rats that bite that they love... But given the choice I wouldn't recommend someone new to rats going that route. Although there are plenty of rewards taking on a challenging rat for an experienced rat owner, I'd prefer to stack the deck in favor of the newbie as much as possible.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I really should add one footnote.... How you raise your rat and how you treat and care for your rat has much more impact on the rat's eventual personality than anything you are likely to observe it doing at the pet shop at 3 to 6 weeks old. And even the best breeder can't promise you a rat you can't screw up.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Actually in till you mentioned her, I had completely forgotten about sweet genes, probably because unlike other people she's not into "rat politics" as much, which I think makes her a really good breeder, if you pay close attention with some breeders its more about the politics then the actual rats. kind of sad, reason i'm very picky with breeders.
As for the litter box, depends on your cage and your rats. my boys are really well litter boxed trained, you can put in their litter box, which is just a small plastic tub, with no litter in it or the same litter as the rest of their cage and they will only poop in it 95% of the time. Which is mainly why I had to clean it out everyday. even though they are techniquelly not litter boxed trained, since I rarely have the litter box in there, they still only poop in it only when its in. kind of interesting how rats can remember a learned behavior for long periods of times with out doing it. They live in a rat manor so its kind of small, but if you have like a bigger cage like, a double critter nation, or large homemade cage, having another one might not be that bad. at the very lease you could always get a large cat litter box or large plastic tub so that they can dig in the bedding, since rats do like to dig. Or if you have a spare small tank laying around you can put that in their cage as a digging box (I've seen some people do it before).
To be honest I never knew Chins couldn't throw up, but considering that they are part of the rodent family it makes since, since I think all rodents can't puke. Luckily rats only get teeth issues if they don't have any thing to chew on for a long time, oh and do be careful, cause some rats like to chew so much that they Will eat your clothes. I've lost many pairs of clothes to it, and for some reason it always seems like they Only chew on your Favorite pieces of clothing. They might even try to eat the clothes on you, or at lease try to take them off and carry it back to their cage. Which when you have a tiny dumbo rat carrying something much bigger then him, and they start hopping around carrying, its really a sight to see. Don't know if Chins do that, I don't know much about them, guess I have something to research now when I have time.


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## EllenFitz86 (Jul 14, 2012)

Rat Daddy-
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to attack your opinion, as I can see where you were coming from as well. I was just saying in general that I agree with choosing a more compatible personality over what some might consider a more visually attractive animal that has an incompatible personality. As far as choosing animals that don't have red/pink eyes because they have poor vision, or an older animal with trust issues, or a sickly animal, I get that too. Taking on a more challenging animal makes it harder for a first time owner to succeed in bonding with that animal and forming good relationships when there are additional hurdles. It's not to say you can't love and bond with an animal with those issues, but I can see why you would steer a newbie away. Again, chins may be a different species, but I wouldn't suggest a first time owner adopting a chin with vision issues. My one chin Rigel has a bad eye, and he's in general, just more neurotic in nature. He prefers to be left alone aside from being handed treats and sticks through the bars. Being pet/handled is mostly just stressful for him. I can see a first time owner expecting a chinchilla to be cuddly, getting one like him and either A.) forcing him to endure being held/ chasing him around the cage to pet him, or B.) ignoring him/ dumping him/giving him away. When I got into chinchillas I knew they differ greatly in personality, and they any chin I would get, it was a complete gamble as to if they would be aloof, cuddly, demanding, or skittish. I love all 4 of them equally, even though they are all different in personality  But anyone who ever expresses interest in chins, I always make sure to warn them that just because they are cuddly animals does not mean the chin you get will like being held, or be super affectionate, and that they take a while to learn to trust their owners. It's better to know things like that before getting one so the animal doesn't end up being given away because they didn't fit a person's expectations. In a perfect world, people wouldn't ever view animals as being disposable,and would love and care for the animal even if they were ornery or needed extra care. But sadly not everyone is willing to do that, so it's always best to inform people as much as you can before they actually get the animal. 
So really, I do see your points too! I'm researching a while beforehand so I can learn how to best care for and socialize my rats and bond with them  i'm buying from a breeder vs a pet store in the hopes of getting healthier rats and ones that have been treated kindly since birth and that I will be able to take home when they are actually ready to leave their mom  None of this guarantees success, i know, but it should at least give me a good foundation! I intend to provide them with everything they need and want, and do my best to create trusting bonds between us  


LightningWolf-

She does seem to be all about the rats which is what I really like about her  I know what you mean about politics, as I've seen it in the chin world. I always preferred breeders who were more into best breeding practices than all the political crud.

I suppose I will just start with the one litter box and go from there  It seems like rats can be litter trained fairly well (better than chins can, even using fleece liners. litter pans my boys still hose down their liners ) So i figured I would give it a shot!

That's good to know that rats don't suffer from teeth issues (genetic based) the way that chinchillas can. Chinchillas can get 'environmental malo' which is from not having anything to chew for a long time, or not properly wearing down their molars. But they can also have a genetic form, which is usually present as root elongation. It's heartbreaking, as it usually pops up before the chin is 2 years of age, and ultimately ends in putting the chin to sleep. Some people selfishly pump their chin full of painkillers and hand-feed them multiple times a day to keep them going for a couple years, but I couldn't do that... I couldn't make my babies suffer just to have them around longer. So far, all my boys *knocks on wood* are doing well, and show no signs of issues. I hoard all sorts of toys and chews so I make sure they are able to keep their teeth healthy  Since I already keep all that stuff stocked up, no doubt the future rattie girls will be spoiled with all sorts of toys and chews as well!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Speaking of genetic issues, I should let you know, but since your getting from a breeder, this shouldn't be an issue, that a lot of rats have genetic heart issues. its one of the hardest things to detect and breed out because it can go undetected for so long, because a death from a heart issue looks like a rat died from old age. And when the death looks like old age and not disease, they don't get an necropsy done. I don't think she has that issue with her lines, but worth asking if your curious.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

EllenFitz86-
The color issue goes more to predjudice than to preference. Unlike chinchillas some people are stand-on-the-chair-screaming or pass-out-on-the-floor phobic of rats (less than 1% of the population by my best guess) and some people are either just scared of or otherwise predjudice against rats (the percentage depends on whether you are in an urban, suburban or rural area). I've had phobics that couldn't be in the same building with an agouti or black rat come within 3 feet of my capped rat and one even made it within 6 inches before her fear froze her in place, sweating and shaking (a remarkable effort given this type of phobia). Actually given a capped rat that's predominently white, most true phobics will not have an overtly adverse reaction until they come within 15 feet of a rat you're securely holding. So, as we both know color or morph has no effect on a rat's personality, but it might determine how your landlord, insurance agent, neighbors, relatives, friends and strangers view your pet and you as it's owner, choosing wisely can make your life a little easier. Of course, if you have a fetish for black or agouti rats, or you know you aren't going to encounter phobic or predjudice people, by all means don't let me disuade you from choosing the rat you truly want. 

As to rats throwing up... if they eat something poisonous they can and will indeed vomit. You can take it from one who has actually cleaned up rat puke. Domestic rats, unlike their wild cousins will eat things that are toxic to them, but this is not an experiment to try at home. I'm glad to say my case had a happy ending, but it was touch and go for a while and no rat or rat owner should ever go through this experience. Always watch what your rat eats and don't assume that it knows what's safe.

As to a litter box, a one gallon critter keeper with an inch and a half of bedding will work a treat. (it's all plastic and looks like a tiny bow front aquarium) I tried litter pans and that didn't work as the rats distributed the litter all over the place and didn't really recognize it as somehow different from the surrounding furniture. But because they have to climb in and out they seem to understand that the critter keeper is different from elsewhere and will more easily go there. It also makes for a good in-a-pinch travel cage and only costs a few bucks. I keep one pinned between the wall and my desk at all times and there's a rat sleeping in it right now.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Rats Don't Puke! period, they lack the muscles in their stomachs necessary to do so. rats can cough up mucus, which is due to a different set of muscles, and is not the same thing as throwing up. My rat Einstein coughed up mucus when I gave him a steam bath when he had a respiratory infection (sadly he died later that day). Once again, due to a different set of muscles in their lungs, not in their stomach. Rats who trust their owner will eat anything willingly, which can be a bad trait if they are released into the wild by careless owners. rats who are afraid of humans, are more cautious, or just wild rats, will only take a small nibble of a piece of food, wait an hour to see if they get sick but not enough to kill them, if nothing happens then they eat it again. this is why Mazuri has been recalled because of too much Vitamin D3 (Or was it B3? not good with vitamin names) doesn't show any ill affected when eaten, and a rat who over doses on it never knows it and dies a slow death. really sad.
You know, I've had friends who were terrifed of rats, I showed them my rats (they were freaked out at first) within five minutes, they were there on the floor with them playing with them on their laps, in till Charles decided to go scent mark happy on them  poor little buddy freaked them out, but they weren't too bothered by it luckily, and started playing with him again. My grandma is more terrifed of rats (she was raised to fear rats) but she's starting to like them, she's even been setting pictures of them as her desktop on her computer, she even started recently to hold my rats, which is a big feat for her. unfortuantly she can't hold them that long because if so they start to want to be on her shoulder and it freaks her out. Some just take longer to get used to. I know people who will never be comfortable with a rat (had a friend who was bitten by a rat as a little girl, so she under stands why people have rats, but she doesn't want to handle one) but as long as they understand why we have them, thats all that counts.
Ok, so not as many people are scared of chinchillas, I'm sure there are some people out there who are. Personally, not a big fan of gerbils (their tails are confusing, its like they couldn't decide if they wanted a chinchilla tail or a rat tail, though I do have to admit they are good pets for those who don't want to clean an animal cage very often) I'm not terrified of them, but that's the best I got as an example.
Trying not to start a conversation again, I don't spend enough time on here to do that. Anyways, hope your future rats are what you want in a rat


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As to rats puking, I can't debate the point beyond the absolute fact that my domestic rattie ate a poison grass mushroom (I watched her do it) and an hour later there was a rat laying on the carpet in front of the back seat of my car, limp as a noodle, next to a pile of yellowish/orange puke the consistancy of mashed potatoes. It smelled very much like human vomit. I've read that rats can't puke and I believed exactly as you did prior to that experience, and I've read rats have some form of flap in their stomaches that's supposed to prevent puking. I also have no clue what muscles they have. I also don't know all of what they can puke out and what they can't or how the reflex is triggered. And lastly I don't know if all rats can puke. But without a doubt, based one most vivid personal experience of what I cleaned up off the back seat floor of my car, at least one adult female capped rat puked. In fact, odds are it saved her life so I'm glad of it. So long story; a rat puked and I've seen it, I smelled it and cleaned it. If mine can, I suspect under similar conditions other's can too. (And by the way, when my daughter pointed out to me that our rat was eating the mushroom, I repeated the story my mom told me to her, that animals know what they can eat... Fact is, mom was wrong and so was I. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.) I treated my rattie with milk thistle, and kept her hydrated at the advise of a vet. She was up and moving within about 16 hours and fully recovered within a few days.

As to wild rats, I had my part-wild rat along with me that particular day and she most definately did not eat the mushrooms. In fact I'm happy to confirm that she would never eat more than a nibble of anything on the first try. I mean even cake of a different flavor than she had before. First try, only a tiny nibble. Sometimes she would eat more a couple of hours later, but most often she wouldn't eat more until the next day.

As to the Mazuri recall, I believe you are correct it was too much vitamin D that caused the recall of a large number of their food products. But as of a few days ago, just about the only food that wasn't recalled is their standard rodent diet #5662 or #5663? But this may have changed, I'll have to check again.

Finally as to appearance traits that are desireable or undesireable, for differing reasons we have different standards and likely based on our different experiences. I live with a true rat phobic and have met lots of people adverse to, or phobic of rats, and the biggest advantage my rat has in social situations is that she doesn't look like a wild rat. This may not matter to other rat owners, especially those that aren't going to expose their rats to other people. (My hang up is spiders, especially big hairy ones so I very much can appreciate phobias.) We both agree color or morph are irrelevent when it comes to personality. I brought it up because I think it might matter to certain newbies that otherwise hadn't given it a thought, but everyone can decide for themselves what rat suits their fancy and life style best. 

So, two different points of view are likely better than one. And I also wish EllenFitz86 the same kind of wonderful rattie relationships we have.


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