# lining up future homes



## jcapicy

Is anyone on here in the pinellas, pasco or surrounding areas in florida? I have a sheduled pairing that will not happen unless i have a first come first serve list of pre-arranged homes.

If i don't have at least 7 more homes lined up i am pushing this breeding off until i do.

Please understand there will be a $5 rehoming fee and a waiver stating they will not be used as pets.

I will be keeping pick of the litter (assuming they don't all come out as black selfs)

The potential pairing is an american blue/silver and a black, both are selfs.

I know black is dominant over silver in most cases as i believe american blue is bb and black is BB(correct me if i'm wrong)

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## Vixie

1. Move this to 'rats needing homes'

2. Why are you breeding?


----------



## Stephanie

jcapicy said:


> a waiver stating they will not be used as pets.


You are breeding them as FOOD!!!????


----------



## ambernd

what stephanie said !!!! ^^^^^


----------



## Stephanie

I seriously hope that this is a typo for god sakes man this is a pet rat forum not a snake food breeders forum!!!


----------



## Vixie

I'm pretty sure it's a typo, he's said before the rats he breeds are not feeders.


----------



## Kimmiekins

I'd love to know some details, too. There is a wonderful breeder in Pinellas who breeds rats in an ethical way, and has been mentored by another breeder.

Have you? What is the linage? Who are the parents? Shouldn't you know what colors to expect for sure? Why are you charging $5? That's cheap for a good breeder rat. Why are you calling it rehoming? That is usually the wording when a rat is a rescue rat, or an older rat that has been homed once already. Hence the "re"... a breed rat baby would not have already been "homed". Have you done this before?

I'm happy that you'll only breed if you can line up homes, but I am curious about your breeding program.


----------



## renay

I second that, although I'd say I'm more than curious, it is very important to line up homes when it comes to breeding rats... but its also important to know your stuff to. You shouldn't breed your rats just because you can... Also .. assuming that your post was a typo.. $5 is too little to ensure a quality life for your rats... for that price you'll catch the attention of snake owners, and pet store owners before reputable owners... its not fair for the rats.. just don't breed your rats..


----------



## Stephanie

renay said:


> I second that, although I'd say I'm more than curious, it is very important to line up homes when it comes to breeding rats... but its also important to know your stuff to. You shouldn't breed your rats just because you can... Also .. assuming that your post was a typo.. $5 is too little to ensure a quality life for your rats... for that price you'll catch the attention of snake owners, and pet store owners before reputable owners... its not fair for the rats.. just don't breed your rats..


Perfectly said!!


----------



## Hippy

I think it was a typo and I believe you all are being kinda rough here. He seems responsible enough, knows his genetics and is being responsible enough to get a line up of people and if not then he wont breed.

I don't breed but it seems no matter what a persons stats is about breeding, you all don't want them to breed. Someone has a littler, you pest them about needing to have pre-homes and money when you dont know them and don't give babies away to pet stores, then someone does and wants a line up of people to adopt them, and you still harass them about it.

I'm starting to think this is an anti breeding your rats forum, but if no one bred rats, then where would your rats have come from? A beginner breeder has to start somewhere or else there wouldn't be any.

Its his choice also to choose a price, or call it re homing instead of adopting. And you can never expect what color to get. You cant put your finger straight on the genetics and know for sure what they will be. And he asked for someone to correct him if she was wrong.

Im just putting my points out there like you all have.


----------



## Kimmiekins

Well, but does s/he REALLY know genetics? Who are the male and female? We haven't been told that, have we? S/he knows colors, to a point. Yes. But a lot of non-breeders do, too. I'm no good with genetics, but many people study them and don't plan on breeding.

Most of the rat fanciers ARE weary of anyone breeding, as with most groups of pets out there. Mainly because there are SO many unwanted rats as it is. There is SO much inbreeding, accidental breeding, feeder breeding and backyard breeding that we DON'T really think there's a need for more rats coming from bad lineage. So many are unwanted, and I can tell you that for a fact. We have 25 rats (and a mouse) here at Rattie Love Rescue (we try not to go over 20). So many other rescues have SO many more (one in MI has 70-some, there's another in CA that has over 300, etc). Each rat born and adopted out means one less rescue rat has a home. It's a huge issue, and many of us ARE upset about yet more rats being brought into the world, so we tend to question people who are breeding. If they are going to put more rats into the world, then they SHOULD be high standard, from a long line of established lines. Most "breeders" don't bother and don't care.

I am NOT anti-breeder. I mentioned above that there's already an established breeder in Pinellas. She's a very good friend of mine, actually. Another of my good rat-friends is a breeder. Again, established, mentors under a very well known breeder, etc. Really, as I feel all breeders should be. The standard SHOULD be high for adding more problems to an overpopulation.

Of course it's his choice. But we have a right to stand up for what we believe in. This is a public forum, we are all entitled to our opinions and as long as we are polite about it, speaking them.

With a price like $5, though (if it's not a typo), there WILL be people who will want to adopt and use them as feeders. Well known fact, here. Also, people scouring for animals for labs that will take whatever they can get... $5 isn't a bad price since the people get paid for dumping the animals. A good breeder KNOWS these things and not only that, would not want to let rats of good breeding go for so little. It's a warning sign if a breeder would adopt out rats for so little money. Says a lot about what they must feel about the quality of their rats.

Also, very well-educated breeders SHOULD be able to know what they're getting, because they should either own the lines or have gotten them from other breeders who know the lines. There may be the occasional rarity or whatnot, but breeders should be able to say that this litter should have mostly this, that and the other thing. If they can't, we question if they really know the genetics, or if the mating pair are pet store rats, etc.

Why shouldn't we question it? As I said, people are bringing rats into a world that is already full of unwanted rats. Every breeder rat that's adopted takes the place of a rescue already looking for a home. Rescue rats die because someone decided to go with a "breeder" rat, even though sometimes, they're parents are pet store rats with someone who thought it'd be nice to have cute babies or whatever.

I'm not saying this IS the case here. I hope not. But as far as we know, this person is saying $5 for adoptions, hasn't listed the parents, hasn't mentored under an established breeder we assume, etc. These are things that separate the established ethical breeders from the feeder breeders or the backyard breeders.


----------



## Stephanie

*nods in total agreement with KimmieKins*


----------



## Matt

Kimmiekins said:


> With a price like $5, though (if it's not a typo), there WILL be people who will want to adopt and use them as feeders. Well known fact, here. Also, people scouring for animals for labs that will take whatever they can get... $5 isn't a bad price.


You aparently Dont have Snakes or Monitors or anything like that.
$5 may be Very Little to a Rat Fancier but to a Sanke enthusiust that is a LOT. Before We Bred (When we had only a handful of snakes.)
We Paid - - - .25 Pinkies, .75 Weanlings/pups, $1.00 Smalls, $1.25 Mediums, $2.00 Large, $2.50 Jumbo....Then theres colossal but we dont feed that big.


----------



## jcapicy

Yes there was a typo that the adopted/rehomed rats will only be pets, and never used as food or food breeders. 

I do have a firm grasp on genetics and the group of us here in my area are only breeding good bloodlines of pet rats from reputale breeders and we have also done male/female sharing and trades. 

My black pearl female and american blue/silver are both from a reputable breeder of pet rats. the female's parents where both black selves, and the males parents were a russian blue and an american blue silver also both selves. 

Also, the ASPCA also charges a $5 adoption fee. 

The genetics of the rats i may breed if i can find homes for the part of the litter that may be excess over the group of people looking for black rats as pets. i will be checking with the group of us to see if anyone has young black rats available but if not i will be breeding. we already have 5 people looking for black rats and 1 looking for a silver. I know the genetics say black (BB) is dominant over Silver(bb) but i wanted more to know if anyone had any thing other than black from such a pairing, although i know i can't plan on it. Also being as black is dominant to most colors if the males has say agouti in its genes(but i highly doubt it!) i would end up with some agoutis even though it hadn't shown in the the past 2 generations. 

I have done a lot of genetics research as we are slowly working toward BEW, dalmations that aren't hooded and the very rare agouti mutation that appears brindled(although likely it is not a passable gene) as we cannot find any locally available. we do not breed what we cannot find good homes for as pets or care for ourselves.

I was looking to start a convo to draw interest to make sure i could rehome all of the offspring that may be left after the people on the list get theirs. 

I have room for a whole litter the point is i am not sure i personally want more adult rats.

This is an if then situation not a I am breeding what should i do situation. 

BTW I also contacted the SPCA in Largo and Orlando Florida to see if they had any black rats for adoption and niether of them do. the only have REW's and one hooded. ( i might be getting the hooded as a non-breedable pet) 

And as said in a prior reply, how does one become a reputable breeder. you have to start somewhere. This forum seems to have a lot of naive ideas and is very hard on its new users. I joined this forum to connect with other rat owners and breeders and learn more, but you really are pushing me away.

Funny thing is i do also have herps and i get far better responces on the forums for that about rats as pets than i do here.

not knocking you just expressing my feelings on the general feeling. 

for those of you who understood it was a typo thanks for sticking up for me.

And i do have a question for you all. I wouldn't in the heat of the summer either way, but does anyone know the specific on the laws of shipping rodents or have any experience? I know feeder companies that will ship live, but the animals well-being isnt as much of a priority for them. 

Also, if i don't find homes for them, assuming i do breed and have a litter. i can sell them as pets at a friends pet shop but even at $8 there they are at risk of......(censored for the sensitive) even though he has feeders for sale for .89-2.99. I will admit to being guilty of buying a pet mouse as a feeder as my snake has a color preference.(again i apologize to those who are sensitive to this and am leaving it at a one liner)


----------



## jcapicy

also, one quick addition. 

I do not nor have i ever fed a rat to any animal!

I feed mice(usually frozen), crickets, meal worms, Super worms, lab blocks, rat ok bird seed (as reg bird seeds are high in oils and other things not so good for a rats diet), collard greens, and a few other select greens to my animals.

i do save a freeze all still birth or young natural death animals and trade them for crickets and mealworms(assuming the animals death could not be prevented or that the animal as no hazardous chemicals in it from the vet). the shop owner whom does not breed rodents but purchases them likes this as many of his owners like knowing the animals are from healthy adults and not it some over heated back room full of mass bred/inbred rodents. My thoughts are i'd rather use one of my lost animals to stop another animal from losing its life or being bought from a mass breeder of feeders.

(again my apologies for bringing up this side of rat breeding)


----------



## jcapicy

"I second that, although I'd say I'm more than curious, it is very important to line up homes when it comes to breeding rats... but its also important to know your stuff to. You shouldn't breed your rats just because you can... Also .. assuming that your post was a typo.. $5 is too little to ensure a quality life for your rats... for that price you'll catch the attention of snake owners, and pet store owners before reputable owners... its not fair for the rats.. just don't breed your rats.." - Renay

Ok, i'm not just giving them to anybody and i know almost every pet shop owner in the area. The only thing i can think of is that if i offer them for an adoption cost of $5 that an as you say "reputable breeder" will have competition. if this is the idea i have already said i am only breeding this particular pairing if there is enough desire for the offspring as pets otherwise it is just not happening. and please feel free to ask your "reputable breeders" where they got their start. i talk to a few good breeders on a regular basis and a few people who partake in pet rat shows and the know we are not competition and that when we produce a litter it is from healthy parents and that it grants them access to rats that they might not find elsewhere. lets put it this way. we have been owning breeding for some time and other than my one friends feeders we have only have 6 litters in the last 18 months and rehomed every single rat. in turn we all have a few rats from each others litters.


----------



## Poppyseed

I'm not anywhere near Florida, and don't need a rat but I wanted to tell you good luck!

I too am kind of getting tired of this forum and the ways people do tend to troll and jump to conclusions. But I also think that a rat breeder not heard of before by a person should be questioned fully to ensure they are doing it correctly especially if they are potential adopters of these rats. Good luck, it's great you are finding homes first and seem to know your stuff!

Also keep in mind the number of back yard breeders that jumped on here posting. It's alarming and we have had only a couple of real breeders come on here and post. I hope you choose to stay as you would be a benefit to the community. Good luck in your endeavors.


----------



## Hippy

I don't know a lot about the whole shipping them alive, rats are very sensitive and can be scared so easily. Also they are VERY small unlike some larger animal breeders like dogs and such. I on one hand would never buy a creature that I cant drive too, because I don't believe shipping is humane.

A lot of rat breeders I have looked into don't like to ship, same with dog breeders but then again some do. Its really up to you and if you do indeed find a rare color, would you want to take the chance in shipping it where it could be killed? 

But indeed, good luck with the breeding, I wouldn't mind a dalmatian rat or brindled! :]]


----------



## Kimmiekins

If you would like to maybe hook up with the breeder I know in Pinellas, let me know. It never hurts to network.

I am happy to hear that you seem to be on the right track. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, but 95% of people breeding rats do not take it seriously, and we've become a bit jaded. Little info given tells us that maybe this is yet another person breeding pet store rats. In my first post, I asked questions in what I thought was a polite, but curious manor. If I came off as anything but polite, then I need to be more careful in my wording in the future.

As for the question of where did other breeders start? Well, the well-known breeders mentor under other breeders, often for a year or more. When it comes time, they then purchase a pair from the breeder, who's lines are established. Maybe years and years ago, the lines were shaky. But most established breeders have generations going back pretty far at this point. They are improving the species, breeding out problems, etc. In my humble opinion, if you are going to breed and add to the population, then please do it with well established lines. Yet, so many people want to breed for reasons other then to improve the lines, and wouldn't bother to purchase breeder rats from a good breeder... And the breeders wouldn't sell them to them anyway, because they are unknown and haven't mentored.

As for shipping... You can ship rats via a few airlines. They will travel as cargo. It will cost a good chunk of money. Last quote I heard for 2 6 week-old rats was $250 to get them from here to Tennessee. The adopter chose to make the drive instead. I leave the option open if that's what the adopter chooses to do, but I have yet to have anyone want to after hearing the cost and the risk.

Lastly, I will not jump on you for it, but the mindset is that selling rats - especially if you are a breeder - to a pet shop is very taboo. The thought is that if you are willing to bring lives into the world, and you do not adopt them out, that you are responsible for taking care of them for their lives.


----------



## mopydream44

jcapicy I hope you stay as well. You seem rather informed and well intentioned, and I think it's wonderful that you checked a shelter first. 

It is really sad to know so many animals need homes but people would rather buy from a breeder (professional, backyard, or whatever) and the fact that you checked a shelter first says a LOT about your character  

As far as people pushing you away, please don't let it affect you. No forum is perfect or free from arguing, accusation, pettiness, or judgement. There are plenty of people who are open minded and willing to help, and I think most of the time people just come across the wrong way (as I've said before) I really don't believe any member goes out of their way to be rude and snide, and if some one is offended, I find that everyone is quick to apologize  

anyhoo I hope everything turns out well, and why not post a few pics when you get the chance


----------



## renay

Lol. I think you probably feel as if I was attacking you... Well you're wrong. If I wanted to attack you, I would have atleast come off as rude, actually probably worst. What I told you was the truth. Sure you know about genetics, big round of applauds, you've proved that. That doesn't give you a liscense to breed. And I'm not attacking you this time around either because I think out of most of the people who have posted in this part of the forum, you're one of the most knowledgeable and responsible to date. But i'm just wondering... if you already have a breeder in your area, why do you need to breed? It just doesn't make sense to me, why bring more rats into the world when they're already over populated?


----------



## Vixie

Hippy said:


> A beginner breeder has to start somewhere or else there wouldn't be any.


This view is very...uneducated, to say the least.

'Beginner breeders' don't start just anywhere. They should have been in a mentor program under a previously established and well-acclaimed breeder for a long time, and then will(most likely) receive a pair from the mentoring breeder's lines. Starting out this way ensures the new breeder is very well-educated and experienced, *and* the new breeder's lines are pedigreed and the genetics are well-known.

There is NO excuse to breed petstore rats or _any_ rat with unknown genetics. None whatsoever.


----------



## twilight

> There is NO excuse to breed petstore rats or any rat with unknown genetics. None whatsoever.


I'm gonna have to disagree.  

Do you think we got the awesome colors we have today from breeding rats with ONLY known genetics? Breeders of the past would of had to take a risk with rats of unpedigreed lineage to get the awesome varieties we have today.


----------



## renay

i think this is an agree to disagree kind of topic, but I think what Vixie was trying to say is that by saying beginner breeders have to start somewhere... you're opening a window for all sorts of yahoos to start breeding unknown lineages... Take me for example. My two girls are pet store girls.. They're both beautiful, and have wonderful temperaments, they're at the perfect age to be bred. But will I? No, because there is a difference between breeding because you should, and breeding because you can.


----------



## Kimmiekins

No matter how you look at it, there is no reason *now* to breed pet store rats.


----------



## Forensic

twilight said:


> There is NO excuse to breed petstore rats or any rat with unknown genetics. None whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna have to disagree.
> 
> Do you think we got the awesome colors we have today from breeding rats with ONLY known genetics? Breeders of the past would of had to take a risk with rats of unpedigreed lineage to get the awesome varieties we have today.
Click to expand...

Yes. However. This would be back when we were domesticating them and figuring out what was what.


----------



## reachthestars

Guys, keep this on topic about finding homes for jcapicy's planned litter. If this turns into an argument about breeding ethics it WILL be locked.


----------

