# Rat tormenting younger rat



## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

Hi all - some of you may have seen this topic before. Awhile back, I posted about my 4.5-month old and 2-month old, Gus and Rusty. Gus is in a cage with cage mate, Bernie, 8.5 months. Gus is a little rough with Bernie, but they haven't ever had any serious fights. They just get into domestic squabbles from time to time, but overall they're pals and seem to enjoy hanging out together. I brought the newest addition, Rusty, home 3 weeks ago. After QT, I introduced Rusty to Bernie and Gus. Bernie is gentle with Rusty, but Gus torments him. Gus immediately started jumping on Rusty and biting him. Not a serious bite - nothing that drew blood - but Rusty squeaks loudly in fear. I decided to wait awhile and then just let them play together once/week while I monitor them closely. It's the same every time. Gus now even chases Rusty around the apartment and Rusty seems scared and runs away. So now I don't let them play together anymore. When Gus is out of the cage, I have to move Rusty's cage to the middle of my living room so Gus can't get to it...but Gus finds a way to jump to the cage anyway and proceeds to torment Rusty through the bars. I'm not sure what to do at this point, since I was hoping all three of them would live together in one cage. Has anyone else experienced this and can offer advice? I'm kind of at a loss. Thanks!


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

For a while I had boy and girl rats separate, there were always hostilities between the girls and one of the boys between the bars of the cage. When they were eventually housed together there were no hostilities at all. My guess is that the separation is prolonging the tussle for dominance. However, here's a video of a hormonally aggressive male being a jerk so you know what to look for. You can see how terrified poor little Euripides is, even if the danger had been only in his head, it seemed prudent at that point to separate them for Euri's sanity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2ZPlbPzG0&context=C3b4d71aADOEgsToPDskKOT9lABQI7dqmw0NWWtGLl (post neuter, got along like peas in a pod....after a few days, once Euri realised Musashi was a savage monster no more).


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## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

My kids behave like the pair in the video a lot of the time, but since they're cuddling together peaceably the rest of the time, I've kind of stopped worrying about it. I was afraid at first that it was the boys terrorizing the girls, but then I noticed that the girls were doing it to each other, and the boys likewise, and the girls would often turn around and go after the boys! Since it all seems to be pretty equal in every direction, I try not to intervene. It also occurred to me that the boys (brothers) and the girls (mother and daughter) met for the first time only a day or two before I picked them up at the beginning of December, so it's normal that they would still be sorting out the dominance among themselves.

Some of it is clearly play and not dominance, moreover, because suddenly a pair will change roles and the defender will become the attacker, or the rat who appeared to be the "loser" in a battle will go after the "winner" and start things going again. I think if it had been a real battle, the loser would have retreated and hidden out for a while, rather than starting things up again, but I could be misinterpreting the situation.

It's a mixed bag, trying to interpret what's going on. The rats and we have enough genetics in common for us to be able to recognize most of their emotions, but it's hard to remember sometimes that things might be different from what they look like. For example, among dogs, exposing the belly and throat is a sign of submission, but when a rat rolls onto its back, it is continuing the fight, not ending it, by protecting its target areas (nape of neck and rump) from the attacker. I hear soft peeping a lot lately, and it's always coming from the rat being groomed. After observing for a while, I am beginning to wonder what that sound means. At first I thought the groomee was complaining, but more and more I'm coming to think it might be the ratty equivalent of "A bit to the right . . . no, higher . . . yes, right there!"


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

Very interesting...that kind of gives me a different perspective on the whole thing. I appreciate the video because now I know that this is just something rats DO sometimes! Based on what you both said, I'm thinking that I might incorporate them all into one cage as a trial run. It's tough to know when to do that though...since Gus is still very much a teenager and Rusty is just starting to enter that stage. Maybe another month or so? I'd really hate to wait any longer than that. I'd like to get a fourth rat at some point as well (oh boy)! I really appreciate your help and all the detail. Do you think it would be safe to put all the rats together now or is waiting a better idea? I *can* wait...I'd just prefer not to if keeping them apart will prolong the struggle for dominance as 1a1a pointed out. Cheers, guys!


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Just to clarify, the behaviour demonstrated by the white rat in that vid is not normal, or acceptable, and most definitely going beyond the realms or mere play. And having lived with the bully for a long time, the victim was so fearful he would occupy one location in the cage and not leave it, not even to do his business. (These rats needed to be split up, and the bully castrated).

Having said that, I doubt your ratties have developed a dynamic anything like this one, a very neutral cage and let them work it out is a definite option. If you see Rusty tensing up every time Bernie comes near him though (like Euripides was doing) then proceed with extreme caution. Rats should tussle during introductions, power groom, hiss, side kick, but if you see Bernie trying to stick his nose under Gus' belly, tell him off, that's not a good sign (I don't think).


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

That makes more sense. I was thinking that no rat would enjoy being tormented as a form of play and I do appreciate your clarification. I will try completely de-odorizing Bernie and Gus's cage, then will move a few things around and introduce Rusty to the cage. Hopefully things don't get too out of hand. If they do, I'll put Rusty back in his own cage. One thing the vet suggested is that I put a small pile of cloth in Rusty's cage until his scent is on the cloth, then move it to Bernie and Gus's cage so they get used to his smell. That may make it easier to transition Rusty to the new cage. I will consider neutering Gus if I need to, though I would like that to be a last option. I can't help but think that he'll grow out of this behavior, so I may even wait another month or two. Thanks again!


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Oops, poor Bernie, here's me suggesting he's the bully (I meant Gus, of course  )

The cloth is a super duper excellent idea.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> Oops, poor Bernie, here's me suggesting he's the bully (I meant Gus, of course  )
> 
> The cloth is a super duper excellent idea.


  It's funny...Bernie never really had a bully phase, even when he was an adolescent. I guess it's just expressed more strongly in some rats than in others. No worries, though. I'll give the cloth idea a shot!


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

Well...against my better judgment I decided to try an experiment. I completely cleaned out the big cage where Bernie and Gus live. I removed all housing and toys. I cleaned all plastic items thoroughly with dishsoap and hot water and did the same for the entire cage, including the bars. I cut a box into two halfs and put it into the cage as new cardboard housing. I cleaned the water bottle and food dish and positioned the water bottle in a new spot in the cage. I put Rusty in the cage first, let him sniff around for 10 minutes, then put Bernie in for another 5 minutes. Then I put Gus in. Gus immediately went after Rusty, biting at him and pinning him. Rusty was basically screaming. They stopped intermittently but eventually started to fight again and Rusty continued to scream. This went on for about 5 minutes. During that time, the fighting didn't become any less intense. I did spray Gus several times with a squirt bottle, hoping it might discourage him but it did very little and I'm thinking that was a bad move anyway. Rusty's back in his own cage now and I'm wondering if he and Gus will ever get along. Introductions out of the cage didn't go well and neither did introductions in the cage. I could try again in a few days but am worried the same thing would happen again. Rusty doesn't appear to be injured but I think he's so terrified of Gus at this point that they may never get along. I'm running out of options...does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

Tibbs87 said:


> I'm running out of options...does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!


Neuter.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

A.ngelF.eathers said:


> Neuter.


 I was hoping I wouldn't have to, but I suppose there's nothing more I can do. Any idea how much that usually costs? Any side effects, other than Gus becoming much calmer? I'd imagine probably not, but it never hurts to check.


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

My rat does the same thing! I had too seperate the both of them. I have no idea what to do,my older one drew blood from the other so I am not too sure if i will ever be able too get them in the same cage or not :/


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

RatzRUs said:


> My rat does the same thing! I had too seperate the both of them. I have no idea what to do,my older one drew blood from the other so I am not too sure if i will ever be able too get them in the same cage or not :/


 Are they both males?


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeah :/ which is prolly the problem


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

RatzRUs said:


> Yeah :/ which is prolly the problem


 Yeah, could be a territory/dominance battle. How old are they?


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## RatzRUs (Feb 5, 2012)

Midnight is a year old and Peanut is 6 months old


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

RatzRUs and Tibbs, Neuter. You can go full blown castration (with the typical risks involved, I think these are generally dimished if the rat is young/in good shape). Or, male ratty implanon (Ketaloren) is an optin if surgery seems like a bad idea. This implant only lasts for 6 months but for both of you, that may be just what you need to determine if an excess of hormones is causing the problem. (Not 100 of having that name right but the vet should know, I think they use this thing more often in ferrets).


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> RatzRUs and Tibbs, Neuter. You can go full blown castration (with the typical risks involved, I think these are generally dimished if the rat is young/in good shape). Or, male ratty implanon (Ketaloren) is an optin if surgery seems like a bad idea. This implant only lasts for 6 months but for both of you, that may be just what you need to determine if an excess of hormones is causing the problem. (Not 100 of having that name right but the vet should know, I think they use this thing more often in ferrets).


 I've heard that neutering strips a rat of his personality and causes him to be lazy and get fat quickly. Any truth to this?


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Guess if depends if you consider being an aggro jerk to be an integral part of his personality or not. I didn't really get to know Musashi until after he'd been snipped but wasn't lacking in personality one iota (just much more submissive). Even as a lazy, eunuch, he still frolicked around the lounge in his free time.

Eh heh, I wonder if this is a slightly harder decision for you because you and Gus are part of the brotherhood. I didn't want to get get Musashi fixed because of a sense of tampering with who he was (and worrying about things going wrong) but it was so, so, So worth it to be able to put him and Euripides together again and not have them living in isolation.

The question is, is Rusty as tense as Euri is in that video?

If yes, something has to give.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> Guess if depends if you consider being an aggro jerk to be an integral part of his personality or not. I didn't really get to know Musashi until after he'd been snipped but wasn't lacking in personality one iota (just much more submissive). Even as a lazy, eunuch, he still frolicked around the lounge in his free time.
> 
> Eh heh, I wonder if this is a slightly harder decision for you because you and Gus are part of the brotherhood. I didn't want to get get Musashi fixed because of a sense of tampering with who he was (and worrying about things going wrong) but it was so, so, So worth it to be able to put him and Euripides together again and not have them living in isolation.
> 
> ...


 No doubt it will relieve him of his desire to be completely dominant 24/7...in addition it may also relieve him of his desire in general. Removing an animal's source of testosterone tends to do that. Am also not sure what brotherhood you're referring to. The Arian brotherhood? Black panthers?  It's something to consider, but consider it heavily I will. If he doesn't chill out after a month or two, I'll snip him. Rusty was much more tense than Euripides and was screaming when in the cage together with Gus. I'll think on this a great deal. Thanks!


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Hehe, no no, the brotherhood of masculinity 

In the mean time, maybe Gus and Rusty can take turns living with the lovable Bernie so neither gets too lonely.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> Hehe, no no, the brotherhood of masculinity
> 
> In the mean time, maybe Gus and Rusty can take turns living with the lovable Bernie so neither gets too lonely.


 Haha, oh that! You know I may just switch them up. Gus could spend a week or two with Bernie and then Rusty could and vice versa until hopefully either Gus calms down or accepts Rusty so they can all live together. Hmmm...


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

That's probably not going to happen. You think it's bad now, if you take him out, then just reintroduce him again later, that's basically like bringing a new male into his cage so it'll start all over again. Then you have a rat that's going to be alone for that period of time.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

Understood. However, Rusty and Gus are already in separate cages. So maybe if Rusty and Gus switch cages cor awhile, Gus can get used to Rusty's scent and vice versa. I wonder if that would help? Argh, I hate to neuter him...


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Rusty and Gus never cross paths, but sometimes Bernie lives with one, and sometimes Bernie lives with the other seeing as Bernie is the affable gentleman that gets along with everyone. (I'd swap them over nightly so no rat spends too much time alone). So, it'll be Bernie and Gus one night, Bernie and Rusty the next etc etc. 

Don't hate on the neuter, it is the easiest, best, most reliable solution. Here is why I advocate for neutering (the actual tale is on the second page). http://australianratforum.com/forum/showthread.php?10184-R.I.P-Bliss-Bean-my-first-true-rattie-loss A rat who's system is flooded with testosterone (assuming this is what is happening to poor Gus) is not a rat in his right mind.


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

When animals change after being neutered/spayed, it's because there's a shift in hormones, nothing more than that.
Animals don't fawn over their glory like men do, Lol


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> Rusty and Gus never cross paths, but sometimes Bernie lives with one, and sometimes Bernie lives with the other seeing as Bernie is the affable gentleman that gets along with everyone. (I'd swap them over nightly so no rat spends too much time alone). So, it'll be Bernie and Gus one night, Bernie and Rusty the next etc etc.
> 
> Don't hate on the neuter, it is the easiest, best, most reliable solution. Here is why I advocate for neutering (the actual tale is on the second page). http://australianratforum.com/forum/showthread.php?10184-R.I.P-Bliss-Bean-my-first-true-rattie-loss A rat who's system is flooded with testosterone (assuming this is what is happening to poor Gus) is not a rat in his right mind.


 I hear that. I bought a cage mate for Rusty today. After QT, they'll be living together. Rusty is easy to get along with and Bear (new guy) seems to be as well. It's a risk, but a calculated risk. As for neutering...let me be clear as to why I'm hesitant. My vet told me that they tend to not put sutures in after a neutering because there's a higher chance that the rat will just tear the sutures out. So, they leave the incision open so it heals on its own. That sounds messy and rather dangerous. I'm unemployed and neutering could be a potentially large expense, especially if Gus doesn't let his incision heal naturally. I'd like to wait until I have a steady income. Also, he and Bernie seem to get along for the most part. They don't have any major spats. Occasionally I'll hear one of them squeaking, but it sounds like your everyday protest squeaks. Also, I have two cages. One for Rusty + Bear and one for Gus + Bernie. So that situation is taken care of for the time being. Ultimately I'm going to do what my vet advises me to do. He says he's willing to do the procedure if all else fails (which it has, so far). In any case, I'll make an informed and practical decision and I do appreciate your help.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

A.ngelF.eathers said:


> When animals change after being neutered/spayed, it's because there's a shift in hormones, nothing more than that.
> Animals don't fawn over their glory like men do, Lol


 Please don't think I'm doing this because I'm male. I know how animals behave when their hormones take over. In fact, humans are animals too. Any distinction that can be made between humans and other animals boils down to a 1% difference (genetically) between a human being and an ape, much of which is the human's rare gift of self-awareness. Rats and humans are very different, though I can tell you that a young, testosterone-fueled human male and a rat of a similar likeness share many of the same qualities. This is a discussion for another time, though I felt that I needed to make the clarification between myself (a man) and whatever you perceive as the difference between a man and "an animal". I'm not sure where fawning comes into play in this discussion.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

I for one am just teasing about the manhood thing . 

The two and two is a perfectly workable solution (and an excellent excuse to get more rats). 

My vet uses some kind of stitch which dissolves (??) The incision is held together with something, and that something disappears after a bit.


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## Tibbs87 (Dec 25, 2011)

1a1a said:


> I for one am just teasing about the manhood thing .
> 
> The two and two is a perfectly workable solution (and an excellent excuse to get more rats).
> 
> My vet uses some kind of stitch which dissolves (??) The incision is held together with something, and that something disappears after a bit.


 I know and I'm totally cool with that. I'll leave it alone now so as to not stir the pot!  I told myself I'd only be "looking" when I went to the exotics shop but they had just received about 8 - 10 rats from a few breeders around town. Also, a crazy story about that. A few of the rats were from an abandoned/vacant house. Apparently the guy living there was arrested for something and left his rats behind. Someone from pest control came by the house and rather than exterminating the rats, took them to the exotics shop, which I think is commendable! I wanted to take one of the older guys home with me because he kept sniffing and was all over me but I also wanted a young rat who would bond with me quicker and be more open to cage mates. So voila...Bear. The sutures that are in Bernie's foot may dissolve, though the vet gave me a note which said to come back in 10 days so they can remove the sutures. I'm just glad Gus wasn't responsible, as his biting Bernie and drawing blood would be difficult to handle right now. Phew.


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