# tell me about kiln dried pine....



## kaylarie

ok.... so i read that pine was bad for rats. well i then read that kiln dried pine isn't. every study i've found contradicted either itself or others and this is quite frustrating. is kiln dried pine ok to use for rats? and if it's not what's a cheap alternative that you would highly recomend? thanks.


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## eddricksmommy101

Any pine or cedar is generally considered bad.

And id try Sunseed Fresh world bedding, it comes in big eco friendly bags and its better.


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## ema-leigh

Stay away from ALL pine. Its the natural phenos in the wood that are toxic and irritating to the rats respitory tract. So all pine is bad.

A cheap alternative is Aspen, but make sure you freeze it for at least 72 hours before you use it to kill off any parasites living in it. You could also consider using shredding newspaper which will need to be changed every 3 days at least... but its a fantastic low costing bedding and super fun for the ratties.


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## stephaniechung

Newspaper is my ultimate choice. Easy to clean. Can be delivered to your door. And since I don't shred mine, my ratties have a blast tearing it up themselves. My rats are also litter trained so cleaning their cage out takes me like 5 minutes. Roll up newpaper, dump. Litter box, dump. Put in new newspaper. New litter in the box. Done.  It's fantastic.


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## kaylarie

well, i cleaned my rat's cage today. (well i should say my son's rat... lol.... he did help me though) i clean it at least twice a week (all new bedding) and spot clean areas he goes the most in since he's in a tank for the time being. (a really short time) i got this bedding at walmart, its some type of recycled paper. so far he seems to like it and so do it. the small package actually seems like itll last longer than i thought it would. im hoping theres no issue with odor. i'm probably gonna try different kinds of bedding and see which i like, and which the rat likes.


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## Kiko

We have a sticky here on what beddings are safe to use 
You may want to take a look.


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## Kiko

http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,21097.0.html

Here is the link


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## kaylarie

i've already checked out that, which is why i was wondering about the kiln dried pine vs any other type. i read many contradicting things that say its good and others say its not. ive even found a site all about how kiln dried is ok. but who knows.


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## ema-leigh

Ask any qualified exotic vet. All pine is BAD for rats. There is inaccurate info all over the internet, mainly made by the companies selling them or associates. Pine is not suitable for any small animal.


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## TamSmith

kaylarie said:


> i've already checked out that, which is why i was wondering about the kiln dried pine vs any other type. i read many contradicting things that say its good and others say its not. ive even found a site all about how kiln dried is ok. but who knows.


Well, there is a company that continues to claim that pine and cedar are in fact safe despite all the evidence that says it's not. I wouldn't trust anything I read on the internet other than what I get from the rat forums.


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## boadaddy

Ok so kiln dried pine is fine just as long as you don't use natural pine shavings, alot of the oils evaporate in the kiln. I've used it for years with no problems at all and I know many people that do the same. Just because you saw it on the internet doesn't make it true, "oh pine is bad stay away from it". Come on now snakes are way more sensitive to the oils in pine but there are many people that use kiln dried pine on their snakes, as long as its the kiln dried it's fine!! It works better then aspen, usually less dust, and it's cheaper, kind of a no brainer!!


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## Kinsey

Boa, is it really worth the risk? Pine is highly toxic and it is best to avoid it altogether. Kiln dried may be slightly safer but it's far easier to just use something else, there' so many other things that you can use, why sacrifice your rats health? You've said that in 2 threads now, stop saying it.


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## Kiko

Kiln dried is NOT safe. All pine releases phenols once it gets wet, so the minute some urine or water from the bottle hits it it will release phenols and be just as toxic as pine shavings. Whats the point of taking a risk when SO many other beddings are available.


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## toyxxhearts

I can tell you from experience it is bad. The first time I ever had rats (when I was younger and knew nothing about them) I used a kiln dried pine bedding in the litter boxes for 3 days and ONLY 3 days. By the third day the rats had already started having some porphyrin around their noses and the coats were no longer smooth. I immediately started reading up on what could be causing it and that was when I discovered pine was bad so I put the recycled paper bedding back in. Within a couple of days they were doing great again! So luckily no real damage was done, but obviously, kiln is still a no go for rats!


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## boadaddy

Sorry never had a problem with it and I've used it for over 4 years, so am I gonna stop definitely NOT. The kiln removes almost all of the oils through evaporation and isn't as dusty as aspen as long as you keep the cage clean and have good air flow there is no reason to use something else. Plus I've said it in 2 threads because I believe in it and I'm not going to stop saying it, if you have a larger number of rats nothing even comes close for smell and value bar none. Also I've never had any RI's or early deaths in 4 years so obviously it doesn't kill rats! So natural pine=BAD and kiln dried pine=GOOD!!! Have a nice day ;D


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## toyxxhearts

Well, you speak from your experience so understand me speaking from mine. The time that I used kiln dried pine (and yes, I kept it changed every day or every other day so it wasn't just left sitting in there weeks on end soaked in urine) it DID in fact cause problems with my rats. So, I am personally not willing to risk it with any others. Especially not just to save a few dollars.


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## lovinmyratties969

I use Carefresh recycled paper which is kind of like what you got at walmart. I have used that too and have never had any issues. They like it because they can borrow down in it and as long as you change it out consistantly it does a pretty good job on the odor. I get a 60liter bag at the local feed store for $17.


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## Snippet

It's not safe. Kiln drying removes *SOME* of the phenols, but not all of them. Any phenols that are left can still cause damage to the respiratory tract. Thankfully, I can get a huge bale of chopped card that will last me up to 6 months (cleaning out one cage) for £13 online, and £5 if I got to a shop so I've got no reason to risk it. If I wasn't able to get hold of a safe substrate I would just use shredded newspaper and clean the cage out more often.


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## smesyna

Snippet said:


> It's not safe. Kiln drying removes *SOME* of the phenols, but not all of them. Any phenols that are left can still cause damage to the respiratory tract. Thankfully, I can get a huge bale of chopped card that will last me up to 6 months (cleaning out one cage) for £13 online, and £5 if I got to a shop so I've got no reason to risk it. If I wasn't able to get hold of a safe substrate I would just use shredded newspaper and clean the cage out more often.


This exactly!!


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