# Your opinion on feeder rats vs. breeder rats as pets.



## Eyerish91 (Dec 14, 2013)

All 3 of my boys were feeder rescues. I've had them for a month now and they are like my kids. I was curious if anyone has had experience with both feeder bin rescues and breeder rats as pets. Were there any major differences in personality and health between the two?


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

It's very noticeable when a rat has been handled since birth. From the very beginning our girls go almost limp when we pick them up.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I was wondering this myself today. I'll probably still adopt from mane society or shelters, but make sure I get younger (or very friendly older girls... )


I've had two rats since they were young, and two since they were older. (Two older are both rescue/rehome, the two younger one was found escaped/let go from her previous owner, another I bought because she was very sick at the store she was at and I just fell in love with the baby)


The two I've had since they were older are not as "comfortable" and "clingy" as my younger girls....

Maybe when they're socialized when they're younger, they form a closer bond... When they're older (like a year old) when you adopt them, they probably don't get as attached.. 
Of course, this is a general rule, and you get rats with bad personalities and such due to backyard breeding or en masse breeding/rat mills ...

Ironically, it's the baby from the pet store that is my heart rat, and clingy girl...



Just a thought  





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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

I have four girls all from the pet store. One of them what was brought in when she was 5 weeks and the people had handled her everyday. Even thought I still technically got her from the pet store I notice a difference between her and my other three girls. She's more relaxed and likes human company and not as jumpy but my other three are very jumpy and not as relaxed when they are out with me.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Mitsy said:


> I have four girls all from the pet store. One of them what was brought in when she was 5 weeks and the people had handled her everyday. Even thought I still technically got her from the pet store I notice a difference between her and my other three girls. She's more relaxed and likes human company and not as jumpy but my other three are very jumpy and not as relaxed when they are out with me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The other three were older when you got them from the store?  maybe my theory is correct haha.... 

Don't get me wrong, if you get older rats, they still bond but are more... Jumpy, almost, like you said...  


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

"Feeders" have the potential to make amazing pets. However, if you have owned well-bred rats as well as feeder rats, you will notice distinct differences and the fact that excellent feeder pets are more the exception than the rule.

Feeders come from very poor lines with health issues by the dozens. Most have not been handled save for a few times by the tail to move from bin to bin. Often come with behavioral hurdles to overcome. NOT recommended by me and many others for beginner parents.

Well-bred rats with documented pedigrees by experienced and ethical breeders tend to have less health issues. Note that the issues are not absent, but rather reduced in general. They've been handled since birth and come from parents that have excellent temperaments.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I am interested in seeing the differences too. We have no local breeders here, that I know of, but I will be getting some adoption pups in a couple weeks (from a pregnant female left at petco) that have been handled regularly since birth. I've decided to take 3 boys (supposedly there is no other interest in the litter of 10, so we should have a good selection). It'll be interesting to see how they compare with my two feeders from petco... One of whom is much more curious and outgoing, but still not completely trusting. 

I'm thinking getting rats from the pet store (bred as feeders or mill-bred pets) is more of a "crap-shoot". Some good some bad, kinda like playing Russian Roulette.. With well-bred rats, I'd assume you'd greatly increase the odds of good temperament. I've heard that if you breed for temperament and are strict about your breeding program, you can produce all friendly rats within 2-3 generations.


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## Andyurgay (Jun 10, 2013)

I don't really have an answer to the question since my two girls were adopted for an accidental litter and the two boys are from the petsmart where I work. 
But I can say there is a marked difference in rats bought/adopted/rescued from previous owners to those bought at pet stores. 

Pet stores do not count as breeders. All animals are shipped in from pet suppliers. Depending one which supplier the store buys from, the animals can either come in sick, wounded, dead, starved or terrified, or beautiful, healthy, friendly and perfect. Often times pet stores get their pets from one supplier, even if they have a poor reputation. That's how chain stores are, it's all set by corporate. Different stores of the same chain may handle the animals differently. My petsmart takes animal care as the 1st priority, even if it means it's non adoptable for months while it gets healthy or we have to adopt it out to a special care taker free of charge. But the Petsmart 5 miles from mine tends to make a habit of leaving sick and dying pets on the sales floor. You have to find the right store.

But the thing is, all of the pets come from the same supplier. All are bred, born, raised and shipped all the same. It's just the luck of the draw where they end up. 80% of our rats come in with URIs. I isolate 98% of them, even as young as 7 weeks. I just isolated 2 tiny babies tonight to see the vet tomorrow for blowing boogers on my hand constantly. They are sweet as can be but sick as a dog. But I had 5 boys come in just the week before, healthy as anything but skittish as all ****. 

Pet store rats are not "bred", they are mass produced and shipped all over. Some are sweet, healthy, perfect pets. Others are aggressive, sick, scared or almost dead. It sucks but that's how the pet industry is right now.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Gannyaan said:


> The other three were older when you got them from the store?  maybe my theory is correct haha....
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if you get older rats, they still bond but are more... Jumpy, almost, like you said...
> 
> ...


They were all about the same age, the girl that got brought in is Abby and she was five weeks, Misty and Stella were maybe a month older and Starlight was five weeks as well actually I got her the same day she turned old enough to get her. 

My thought is that the three that were raised there are more scared because all of the noises from people, birds, cats, and other small animals. Also from them probably having people tap on the glass tank type things they were living in.


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## jellybeanqueen (Sep 6, 2007)

I got my first two rats as babies from the feeder bin at a pet store. They were terrified of me and hid in their house whenever I walked into the room. But I was persistent in socializing them (read out loud to them from a book, stuck hands in the cage to give treats, stuffed them down my shirt) so they were bonded to me after a month or so. One of them, Vegas, is what I consider to be my heart rat. She was so lovely and groomed my scalp and nails and everything. Baby remained skittish on the other hand but was still manageable. My next two rats were from a breeder but I got them at 5 months old. They were super interested in me and immediately gave kisses when I took them out of the carrier when we got home.  I have four rats now: two adult boys and two baby boys. The adults I adopted from someone who was moving overseas, and I was informed they were pet store rats. Bolt is very independent and is not interested in me much except as a snack machine but he never squeaks when I pick him up, touch him, etc. Flurry (my PEW/Himalayan?) is the sweetest thing though. He licks my fingers and has fallen asleep in my hands a few times. Love that cute boy. My babies I got from a breeder @ 6 weeks old, and they were nervous the first day I brought them home, but warmed up to me within a week of daily handling. Now I get lots of kisses and they climb up my pant legs. I feel so blessed with all of the rats I've had! Some just take more work than others Oh! And as for health issues, the rats I've had from the breeder both experienced URIs, but the flareups were further apart than with the pet store rats. Flurry has chronic myco issues and it's so sad cos he's only a year old but has wheezing in his lungs.  However, Bolt is fine! It all depends. I try to rescue and support breeders now... I won't let myself go into pet stores that sell rats after I saw a live "pinkie" being dropped into a paper bag for snake food one day. Broke my heart.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I am a breeder, however for I am also very much a pet owner to and have been for hears, wheras the breeding didnt start until a few years ago. My early rats were all pet shop rats and potential feeders. In fact I remember as a 7 year old asking a pet shop for some rats and b e ing asked if I wanted them frozen. They thankfully dont have feeder bins over here but the little plastic tanks are not much better. For years I had these rats, then I discovered rescues and had them for a while, then about 2006 I got my first breeder rats. To say it was a relevation is selling it short. I was used to having to put time and effort into socialising my babies, expecting a few weeks until they really trusted me. These new lads didnt take a day, they wanted to meet me within seconds of getting home, they loved me from day one and we had an amazing bond. Dont get me wrong I had had this kind of bond with pet shop and rescue rats before, but not as easily and not with every single rat in a group.

Since then ive been blessed with my rats, I seem to have a true heart rat every generation or two and they love so easily. Since breeding them myself I find it even nicer, by the tiime my rats reach homing age we are already fast friends, but I dont think that bond stops others forming. I recently took 3 of my last litter to a new rat home for a family with a lad who was 7 years old. I brought them round myself as I wanted to be there to answer any questions and make sure rats and family were happy with each other. It was really special, I was grinning like a looney when I left. The young lads and their human owner hit it off immediatly, they were confidently interacting with each other straight away, youd think theyd know each other for months. I left them there knowing theyd come home. From everything ive heard and seen photo wise that hasnt changed.

I must say though im a big believer in not all breeders being the same, I know a lot of breeders and they have really good standards, but I know of some who I wouldnt get rats from as there ethics dont match mine, then there are those that are no better than feeder breeders, who mate to get pretty colours, not healthy sound rats.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Feeder rats from commercial rat farms aren't exactly bred willy nilly... They do appear to be bred to be calmer than some breeder rats are. Staff getting rat bites doesn't help with OSHA inspections and time lost from work. And rats that don't bite customers or herps goes a long way towards repeat business. That said, the longer a rat stays in a feeder environment the worse it will get. I adopt only feeder rat pups...

Feeder rats are also bred to get bigger and fatter faster than other rats... Feeder rats are sold by size and weight.

We did a survey on rat health, especially tumors and feeders did remarkably well; much better than expected, but to be honest there were very few rats of any kind over 2.5 years old. While I do believe that commercial rat farms breed for short term health issues like URI resistance, I don't thing they have any real interest in longevity past a year and a half. As they wouldn't keep any rats longer than that. I've never seen a URI or any issues other than tumors in females at over a year old. I met a fellow with feeder boys and one is getting tumors at nearly 3 years old... 

One thing I have learned, it's that rats develop their personalities as pups, I've trained two true shoulder rats from feeder pups. My latest I adopted at 2 weeks old and bottle fed literally taking her to bed and sleeping with her. The other was about 3 weeks old when we brought her home. If you can't find feeder rats very young, you would be much better off with breeder raised rats, the extra money and better socialization is worth the price difference.

I have run across certain special adult rats in pet shops and feeder bins that just have great personalities, despite a life time of abuse... And these are also worth taking home, but you really have to spend some time with them before you leave the shop to make sure you aren't taking home a rat that's more screwed up than you can fix. And by the way, once a rat is screwed up, it's almost never 100% right, sure they can turn out very well and become great pets and friends, but once you see the difference between a rat you fixed and a rat you hand raised you will understand what I mean. A hand raised rat is completely trusting and almost thinks it's human... a screwed up rat that's been fixed rarely gets quite there.

It really isn't a matter of where you get your rats, it's more about how they were raised as pups.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

When it comes to choosing a rat, always choose a reputable breeder over a pet store. If that is not possible, try to adopt or rescue over purchasing from a pet store. Pet stores often get their animals from mills, which only care about profits and do not care about the health, lines, behaviour, enrichment and socialization of their animals. Their animals are there to produce animals to sell, that's it.

Just because one store seems to take care of their animals, doesn't mean their animals were cared that way by their supplier and it doesn't happen in all stores... or even in all stores of a particular chain (just because your local Petsmart in Florida "takes care of their animals" doesn't mean that the one in downtown Oklahoma City does... but all Petsmart stores will profit from your purchase)

Reputable breeders will have knowledge of their rat's temperments, breeding lines and potential issues. If someone is breeding rats for the love of the breed, the rats in their care will be well taken care of and they will be paticular about who they sell them too.

Adopting or rescusing is a crapshoot, like a pet store. You'll likely have no knowledge of their temperment and health issues going in and you have to be prepared to deal with that. But you are taking animals from a bad situation and giving them a better life. Two of my rescues were bought from a crappy pet store and were kept in a small hamster cage with nothing in it (they shouldn't have been sold to the women in the first place but that's another story). They are very appreciative of their double ferret nation filled with places to explore, fresh food, access to veterinary care and new roommate, Sprocket.

When you buy a rat from a pet store, you are just giving money to the supplier, which will continue to breed animals in a shoddy environment. If nobody bought rats from a supplier, the supplier would be forced to close or be forced to keep their breeding animals in better environments.

Really, this thread should not be about feeder vs breeder. One's first choice should be to not give money to a pet store that is mass breeding for profits.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

A lot of you are animal lovers and have probably spread the message "Adopt don't shop!" when it comes to cats and dogs. Some of you may have seen photos or information about puppy mills and encourage people to adopt or purchasing a dog or cat from a reputable breeder over buying a dog or cat in a pet store that came from a mill operation. (If you don't know what a puppy mill is, I highly suggest that you do a little poking around the internet, but I do warn you that some of the information is graphic. Red Rover, an animal rescue organization that I am a member of, participates in puppy mill seizures and has a video on the topic: http://www.redrover.org/puppy-mills-and-cruelty)

Why are rats any different than cats or dogs?
Why is it okay to buy a rat from a pet store but not a cat or dog?
Why is it okay to purchase a rat from a mass-breeding operation and not a dog or a cat from a mass-breeding operation?

There is no difference between purchasing a dog from a puppy mill and a rat from a pet store supplier so there should be no reason for you to say that it's okay to not support one but support the other.

Just some food for thought. I get the impression that not a lot of people think about this when are considering buying rats from a pet store.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In fact, I'd like to respectfully answer your question trematode... My local pets shop sells around a hundred feeders a week, perhaps one goes to a forever home. If that one rat didn't go to a forever home it would be fed to a snake just like all of the others. Dog breeders don't have the option of selling their dogs for the same price as feeders. Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to most dog breeders, but I'm sure some would be fine with it and immediately start breeding ten times as many dogs if they could be fed to something... Lions or tigers perhaps?

The difference is that dogs are bred to be pets and if the pet market dries up they will breed less dogs and/or go out of business. When you pass by the feeder bin and you leave that cute friendly little rat pup there for whatever reason, you are condemning it to being snake food. You walk out and the next person who walks in buys it for the same price and feeds it to his python. And if my pet shop ever noticed that they were selling one less rat a week, they would just run another sale on pythons. It's amazing how many ball pythons they can blow out in a single day when they buy in bulk and run a sale.

But don't be fooled, my local pet shop has realized there is a market in pet rats, however small and they have allocated their largest cages to rats and they use paper based bedding and feed better foods and have moved their rats to the front of their small animal display because they realize that every pet rat they sell needs a cage and bedding and food and is more profitable in the long run than a feeder rat. The staff will bend over backwards to help a pet owner find the right rat among the many. The few pet rats they sell have improved the short lives of all of the feeders.

There really is a difference when it comes to feeder rats and dogs. Dog breeders can't run a sale on snow leopards or tigers to boost feeder dog sales. 

I do however agree that you can hurt a store that mistreats it's animals by buying your expensive cages and supplies elsewhere. And I do agree that reputable breeders that actually lose money on the rats they breed need to be supported whenever possible, and that socialized breeder rats are a real bargain. 

Most importatnly... Fuzzy Rat, Max and Amelia were all rescued from feeder bins... in what world would it have been better for anybody if they were fed to snakes?


Fuzzy Rat grew up to be a true shoulder rat that walked at heel,








made lots of human friends and introduced countless people to rats as wonderful pets 









and she was my daughters very best friend....

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










And Max brought us both joy and love...








and also grew up to be a true shoulder rat that has represents her species well








and changes young hearts and minds








And Amelia, well she's not like our other girls, but she is still gentle and friendly and she took excellent care of Fuzzy Rat when she was old and sick...








Everyone who has formed a better bond with their rats or fixed their biting rat through immersion, or has in some small way benefited from my advise has been touched by these and my other "feeder bin rescue rats". I'm not discouraging anyone from buying from a reputable breeder or adopting from a rescue... but in my mind there isn't a single commercial argument that will ever convince me that it would have been right to leave these girls to be fed to snakes.

I can respect everyone's opinion and I want to end abuse in pet shops and rat farms as much and probably more than most people do, but when somebody tells me my girls should be fed to snakes, I'm afraid you've lost me right from the get go. The number of feeder rats that are sold and bred is directly proportional to number of big snakes imported and bred and kept in captivity, not pet rat sales. So this becomes an argument for or against principles that are actually going to get more innocent rats killed and none rescued. When good moral values get the animals you love killed in the worst possible way, I think they are suspect. Nothing is more important than saving the life of a single rat when you can and giving it a wonderful forever home.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I forgot to add, that while I agree that a breeder is always way better than a store.... certain rescue rats come from homes where they have been neglected or mistreated and have issues a new rat owner just isn't prepared for.


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## monster_paws (Jan 17, 2013)

I think the guilt I felt when buying my two feeder girls was that I increased the chances of the others becoming snake food. I got my girls in a bin labeled "small rats: $2" and I think there were seven of them in the bin. I picked my girls because they were the only two huddled together closest to the opening and looked like two forlorn best friends. The others were in the far corner and I was too short to reach my hand over to the other side. I was already on my tippy toes. So before I showed up, the rats in the "small rat" bin had a 1/7 chance that day to become eaten. After I left with my girls, the remaining rats now had a 1/5 chance to be eaten that day. I couldn't have taken them all and that's some weird logic, but I still feel pretty guilty and it's been over a year. There could have been a baby rat in that bin that could have blossomed into something amazing.


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks for the imput Rat Daddy.

My intent wasn't to post fingers. I'm someone who is involved in animal welfare and has done a lot of work in shelter situations. I have seen far to many people on this forum justify or argue for choosing a pet store over all options. Whenenver I see any debate talking about a pet store, I cannot help but state that you're not just choosing a pet. When you spend $$$ in any pet store that treat their animals with any kind of cruelty or neglect, you're telling that store that it's okay for them to do that. When it comes down to choosing an animal, it shouldn't just be "feeder" or "breeder". Your decision should also include where you're getting the animal. If 1 out of 100 feeders were being bought as pets for $2 each... and let's say 500 members of this community buy 2 feeder rats each from the crappiest pet stores imaginable... that's $2000 going into a shoddy business. Personally, I'd feel too guilty buying any pocket pets from that situation and prefer to educate instead.

You have no idea how badly I wanted gerbils again last year. There were none in the classifieds. I had witnessed too much suck and neglect in 3 Pets Unlimited stores between 2005 and now to justify giving them any of my cash. They're just awful. It just wasn't meant to be. I eventually found my rescue rats not too long afterwards... both were lice-infested PU feeder rats that a woman bought out of guilt and stuck in a small hamster cage. I still got my "feeders" and not a cent went to the store.


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## zombiesrkewl (Nov 28, 2013)

I know I've made another post similar to this on another forum about Petco, but it kind of got ignored so I'll say it again. The real reason that so many rats are fed to snakes is because there are an outrageous amount of irresponsible snake owners out there. In my opinion, you should never EVER feed live mice or rats to snakes, regardless of their size, breed, or any other qualifier. It is incredibly dangerous for the snake. A friend of mine had a female corn snake that she regularly fed live rodents to. One day she put a hamster in its tank for dinner. When the snake lunged for it, she missed and bit its side instead of its head. The hamster turned and bit right through the snake's skull. By the time my friend noticed what had happened, both animals were dead. I've met numerous snakes who have been fed live rodents and they have the scars to prove it. I've worked as a vet tech in a clinic that does a lot of exotics, and every now and then someone will bring in a snake that's been bit or clawed. We always try to tell people that feeding live rodents to snakes is VERY unsafe. Some people will make the argument that their snake refuses to eat dead animals, but the truth is that the majority of these snakes can be taught to accept defrosted mice or rats.

Sorry for the rant, but I used to own a couple snakes and it always infuriated me when I would here someone talking about live feeding. It's just incredibly irresponsible and stupid.


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## Batman (Sep 11, 2013)

There has been times where I got a rat frona breeder and he was unsociable to the point I dreaded putting my hand in the cage but my very first rats.ever boxer and sting were from a feeder bin and turned out amazing shoulder rats etc. I mean yes it made room for a couple more rats but unless you convinced everyone on earth to stop buying live feeders it doesn't matter if you don't buy because other people will buy so of really not putting a dent into anything I don't look at feeders as feeders I look at them as rats who are lovable and if I feel.a.connection to one ill buy one from a tank BC I'm not going to drove 6 HR to the nearest breeder when I can save a rattie from being dinner

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## NuclearMuse (Nov 26, 2013)

I know we've been over the bit about how buying a rat from a mill (/store) increases the demand and more rats just get put in their place, and the money then goes to support that mill, but what nobody has yet said is this:

Whenever somebody who is willing to work with unsocialized rats buys a rat from a pet store instead of going through a rescue, then not only is the money going to the mills, but it is taking a home away from a rescue rat AND causing the rescues to stay full; which in turn condemns more rats in bad situations to an unknown fate, since the rescue won't have room to take them in.

Also, if everybody who thought "it doesn't matter if I buy a feeder because everyone else does" stopped thinking that... we would probably make a SERIOUS dent in rat mills' profits.

And I HATE the feeling of picking a rat out of a feeder bin and then looking at all the ones left behind, since that's where I had to get my first few rats before I had a car (and while I don't regret bringing them home, I regret supporting a business I disagree with  ). It makes me feel like I'm playing god, and deciding who lives and who dies. D:


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I have saved three out of the five rats I've owned in my lifetime. Jasper had been in the store for at least 8 months, that was almost his whole life. Lilly came from a place that sold feeders and even though her tank was labled "pet" rat she was still very fair game. Both Lilly and Jasper were almost grown when I'd gotten them and both turned out to be marvelous. Don't get me wrong, Jasper was screwed up and Lilly is snarky and tells you exactly what she wants, but they both were given a new shot at life. Matilda was 3-4 weeks when I'd got her. She was the smallest in a tank of a dozen, alone and shivering by herself while the others were in a big pile at the back of the tank. I had just lost Jasper and when I'd seen her like that my heart hurt. I took her out and was pleased she was calm. I had her inn my palm and she yawned, blinked up at me and turned and licked my palm. That was all it took too. I made a bee line to the register, purchased her and the crickets I'd gone in to get then walked to the car and told my husband what I'd done. She is the most affectionate one out of my mischief.


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## Devyn (Oct 30, 2013)

My first rat was a bonafide feeder, she was a very large PEW who had never been handled with care. Although she learned to sit calmly on my shoulder and take food from my hands, I never fully earned her trust. She rarely slept on me, visibly enjoyed my scritches, or wholeheartedly bruxed. She always relieved herself wherever and whenever she wanted. She never bit me though, much to my amazement. 

Over the years I've acquired my rats from a small pet shop that does their own breeding. Many of the people who work there are fond of rats and even handle the babies from time to time. It wasn't much, but it was something. Most of my girls are kind and fearless, but they still live such short lives burdened with bad health.

I* will not* buy my rats from that pet store any more. They've always kept breeding males to father their litters, but one day they picked an unfortunate female and bred her continuously. She never got a break, her babies were housed with her until they were old enough to impregnate her again. Her litters were so close together that they sometimes overlapped. I've seen her nurse newborn kittens with a few from her previous litter mixed in. They finally let her off the hook after a year, she was the last rat I will ever purchase from them.

I fully intend to adopt breeder rats from now on. You spend so much time trying to earn the trust of your pet store rat, and once you're bonded it isn't long until its health starts to deteriorate. Their lives are so short, I will gladly drive hours out of my way and pay the extra expenses just to own a rat with the potential to live and love longer.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

This is one of those odd arguments where opinion, morality, point of view and circumstances all wind up conflicting.

We run the risk of telling one rat owner that they are not as good as another or that their rats aren't as good as other rats. Is that the message we really want to send? The internet is already full of Rat Nazis that will chastise people for buying the wrong rats from the wrong place and make them feel bad for giving a loving animal a good home. 

Now, I'm a pretty passable rat trainer, and I have raised some amazing rats, I've even helped a few folks out here and I can very likely get rats from where ever I want to, but I choose to treat every rat owner equally without prejudice. And from the posts on this forum, I know that all of the real rat experts agree with me. C'mon admit it, we have all spent more time and effort helping folks with pet shop rats than with any other rats. We help everyone and we each care about every rat that needs help. This is no time to screw up and make people that give certain rats a good home feel bad about their choices.

Lets agree that there may be preferable places to get rats, but it's never bad or wrong to give any rat a good forever home. 

Trematode, although the actual net profit on a feeder rat pup is likely closer to 25 to 50 cents and in some cases the store might actually be selling them at a net loss; but even with your example using gross numbers, for $2000.00 we are saving 1000 innocent rats from being fed to snakes. Now in many areas there are no reputable breeders and no rat rescues with readily available pups or well socialized older rats suitable for new rat owners which leaves 500 potential rat owners without loving little buddies. I know we are both being moral and we both love rats and we seem to have conflicting math but we should be able to agree that every rat that finds a loving forever home is a win for our cause.... we can debate what the biggest win is, but anyone with a best furry friend is a winner and every rat with a happy home is a lucky rat.

I hate seeing innocent rat pups being sold as snake food, and I'd gladly pay a 50 cent toll to the devil to save one when I can. That's just my moral outlook. Shoulder rats live a high risk lifestyle, so I don't buy breeder rats that are already safely headed for good loving homes. Although both Fuzzy Rat and Max turned out to be spectacular shoulder rats and lead amazing lives, they started out with an imminent death sentence hanging over their heads. No matter what could have gone wrong I was sure I was improving their lives with absolute certainty. I take great care to train my rats and be as safe as possible, but if something ever went wrong, I can know in my heart that my rat had no reasonable option for a life with a better outcome. 

I do not buy dry goods from stores that mistreat their animals by policy or practice. If I don't see at least a reasonable effort made by the store to take care of their livestock, I spend my big dollars elsewhere. They can have my 50 cents to save a rat, but they won't get my $100.00 for a cage or my food and other profitable business.

I do however remain a bit skeptical about adult rescue rats. Many rats wind up in rescues after being neglected and mistreated by their former owners or because they were screwed up from their source. If the rescue does a good job of fixing and socializing them, they may be great rats, but that isn't always the case... This goes double for craig's list rats. Like used cars, used rats can come with big problems that are just too hard for newbies to fix. If the rescue has pups, those would most likely also be at the top of my list for new to rat owners, but I tend to believe that new rat owners should be very cautious about any older unsocialized rat they look at. Your not rescuing a rat if you have to put it to sleep two weeks after you bring it home; after it puts your child's eye out. Oddly, rescues and Craig's rats list can be more mortally correct than feeder bins rats but can wind up turning out to be way worse for a newbie in the end. Again I support rescues and I've spent lots of time helping folks who have adopted previously owned and broken problem rats. All rats should be given a chance to be amazing and everyone who adopts a rat from anywhere is a superstar in my opinion. Don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with adopting the right rat from a rescue or even Crag's List, and I actually encourage the practice, if it isn't done blindly for moral reasons alone. In the end it's always the right fit between the right rat and the right owner that matters most.

One last footnote... I also don't want to encourage new rat owners to buy adult screwed up feeder or pet shop rats, again you aren't doing anyone a favor here. Screwed up and biting rats mean big trouble for a new rat owner regardless where you buy them from. There are some folks here that are very good with screwed up rats and immersion can fix lots of them... but you don't want to be wearing any new rat you buy as a nose ring... trust me, rat bites hurt.... a lot. This isn't a moral argument, just a practical one.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> I do however remain a bit skeptical about adult rescue rats. Many rats wind up in rescues after being neglected and mistreated by their former owners or because they were screwed up from their source. If the rescue does a good job of fixing and socializing them, they may be great rats, but that isn't always the case... This goes double for craig's list rats. Like used cars, used rats can come with big problems that are just too hard for newbies to fix. If the rescue has pups, those would most likely also be at the top of my list for new to rat owners, but I tend to believe that new rat owners should be very cautious about any older unsocialized rat they look at. Your not rescuing a rat if you have to put it to sleep two weeks after you bring it home; after it puts your child's eye out. Oddly, rescues and Craig's rats list can be more mortally correct than feeder bins rats but can wind up turning out to be way worse for a newbie in the end. Again I support rescues and I've spent lots of time helping folks who have adopted previously owned and broken problem rats. All rats should be given a chance to be amazing and everyone who adopts a rat from anywhere is a superstar in my opinion. Don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with adopting the right rat from a rescue or even Crag's List, and I actually encourage the practice, if it isn't done blindly for moral reasons alone. In the end it's always the right fit between the right rat and the right owner that matters most.
> .


Most rats, despite being neglected or abused will never bite  it's not like adopting rat pups but they're still sweet and cute  yes it is a moral issue... I think people should always consider adopting rats from shelters and rehoming ... If you want a sweeter, baby rat, shelters often get pregnant mums. 

I have nothing against adopting feeder rats , other than more purchases is interpreted as more demand for feeders, and more purchases are made... For that principal, I personally wouldn't . 


I hope I'm not the exception to the rule here, but I adopted two adult females; one from humane society and one from re home (the other that was found in an oven is somewhere around 4 months so I don't think she counts...)

Anyways, I have no idea what kind of past these babies had. It probably was not all that good . I was (am? Lol) a rat newbie ... Honestly a rat that Is neglected/abused May be scared of you and not want to be pet all that much , and you will have to work to gain their trust and love ... But in my experience 
They can be great !! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

Being a vegan, I've heard a lot of people say that if they change, "it won't make a difference" or that I "won't make a difference". That doesn't stop me from trying to live a cruelty-free life. It gives me an overwhelming sense of happiness to know that I don't "need" to support the awful chain store in my area and that I have given 4 rats great homes.

I can't help but butt into a "feeder" vs "breeder" debate. It's not black or white. It's a gray area... and people need to recognize that and think it over.

Yes, there are risks to adopting over buying a feeder, but not everyone who adopts is wind up with rats that bite their faces off. People love to use excuses to buy the rat right in front of them at the pet store and I don't blame them. The store "seems nice", the rat "seems friendly", if I don't buy it, "it will wind up dead", and "it won't make a difference to the store if I buy them or not"... or the ever popular "but there are no rats at the shelter or in the classifieds! I looked (once)!"

When it comes to rescue rats and breeders, you aren't going to wind up with a killer rat if you act responsibly. Ask the rescue, owner or breeder questions. Meet the rat. If they don't seem like a good match to you, keep an eye out for a rat that is. Waiting isn't going to kill you.

If you care at all about bettering domesticated rats through responsible breeding or helping an animal in need, you will give your $$$ and your support to responsible breeders and rescues over pet stores that just want $$$ from snake keepers, John Does' who have done no research and buy a single rat 'cause they think they are cool and the rare rat owner who actually knows what they are doing.

I've said my piece. Best of luck.


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