# found a bunch of manx rat breeders on hoobly >:(



## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1489800.html
http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1483460.html
http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1045322.html
http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/780535.html

hope this works. this stuff bothers me sooooo badly. do people not know the issues that come with manx rats or do they assume they can cheat people into thinking its a rare and amazing new breed ..... ggggrrrrrrrr lies lies lies


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

A lot of different breeds have a lot of different problems. It's just a matter of where you draw your line at. 

Hairless, rex, double rex, velvetine, Pink eyed/red eyed anything, they all have health problems associated with their genetics. There's no reason to bash someone for breeding one, over the other. Because like I said, everyone draws their line somewhere, and for you, it's clearly at Manx. 
I know in mice, Brindles, dominant red, and recessive yellows, are prone to obesity and diabetes, and some people won't breed them because of this.

I personally draw my line at waltzing and dancing rats and mice. But that's just me. Some people enjoy them, but I just can't see how.
I also don't like earless mice, but again, it's a personal decision, and that's all there is to it.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Actually I have to agree with the poster. Manx is an extreme mutation, in a healthy manx... the tail is gone (which they need to regulate temperature and for balance) That doesn't sound too bad, but the majority are not that lucky - the gene can also seriously mess up other things like organs, fertility etc. 

I can see the argument in hairless, yes they have lots of issues. But I don't think its just as simple as 'where you draw the line at'. I love all my rats, I couldn't imagine introducing manx and trying to breed for it knowing several of the babies could die or be seriously deformed. Whats the point? Sure you can just keep the healthy ones and try 'better' the type, but what about the ones that have to suffer? I know all lines have issues, but if the issues are minor the breeder can ethically work on them if the issues are big the breeder should drop the line completely. If you bring a type to your program it should be to enhance the species.. isn't that what ethical breeding is all about? 

I don't see any difference between a breeder breeding Manx and a breeder breeding 'high white' mega colon lines... and that being okay as long as they are keeping the healthy ones and trying to improve their lines? Of course not.. what about their babies that suffer? 

What health problems are you talking about with all those types? I fail to see how a rex rat is any different on the inside to a regular rat. Considering its a dominant gene, these health issues should be quite apparent. 

Also earless mice is not a standardized type... if anyone had these mice its likely just a mutation from poor breeding. I say poor more because its a disservice to the animal for the breeder to purposely try to do something like that.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

i dont approve of the breeding of manx rats but i highly above all else disaprove of selling them. we cant stop them from breeding manx rats but we can notify unknowing people of the genetic and physical issues of manx rats. as you can see those people on hoobly are selling the manx rats for $60+. what if a new rat person bought a manx (looked healthy) rat, but 3 weeks later it has a stroke, or randomly dies.... turns out it was a genetic issue with their intestines etc. personally id be pissed... id lose alot of money and i highly doubt those people would compinsate for it. if your gonna breed manx rats keep them to yourself dont sell them. they havent been perfected and i highly doubt the manx line will ever be concidered good enough for pet quality or anything else. too many manx rats suffer. more so than hairless etc. its one thing to take away fur but another to remove a rats body temp regulator purposly


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Earless mice are not standardized in any clubs that I know of, no. But they are breedable and are simply hideous. They look like someone melted their ears off. :-[

Any rat, with curly or long hair, is prone to eye irritation and skin problems. There are some countries, like Germany and Poland which recognize some breeds as 'Suffering breeds' (I can't remember the word in German) and I think in some areas it's illegal to breed them, and in others it's simply strongly frowned upon to the point of them being virtually non-existant.

"I know all lines have issues, but if the issues are minor the breeder can ethically work on them if the issues are big the breeder should drop the line completely."

This is what I'm talking about. For everyone, the lines between minor, and major are different. 
I think that the glowy mice and rats are really neat-o! But some people consider them terrible monstrosities. 
I think Manx is fine, in the hands of a responsible breeder. 
Facing facts, everything that humans breed have mutations that are harmful, it's just a matter of, again, where you draw your lines. 

There are no moral rights and wrongs in this world, just opinions on difficult matters. 

I think breeding Pugs, pekingese, and other brachycephalic dogs are cruel, and shouldn't be bred, but it's my opinion. :-\
In fact, most dogs have some sort of disease or problem, that is bred into them. Dalmations are prone to being deaf, Labradors are prone to hip dysplasia, but we still breed them.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

I do agree though, that passing them out to people who know next to nothing, is bad. :-\

And the prices on them, are ridiculous. I won't think I'd pay more than $20-$30 for -any- rat, and if I do, it better be made out of solid gold. 
Just kidding really. But $70 a rat is obscene.

And people see these prices and think to themselves 'Oh man! If I start breeding a ton of these guys, I'll be rich!" But it doesn't work that way, and you shouldn't get into it for the money.

My friend owns a manx rat, and it lives quite happily, but she'd never breed her. 
Which I greatly respect.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

exactly. alot of people on this site though dont agree with even the breeding of manx rats. to be honest. Example: you breed manx to manx, get a litter of 8 pups, only two live and the rest are deformed internally or physically. its too much of a loss. i have had just normal hairless babies die before and its so sad. i dont know how people can love rats and still breed manx knowing the amount of losses associated with that mutation


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

i would be interested in hearing how one of these breeders thinks breeding manx rats is bettering the species... 

removing their vital body parts for what? aesthetic reason, because people can't get over the oh-so-nasty rat tails?

like ema said, it's like breeding high whites prone to megacolon just because their blazes and markings are "pretty".

i think the pain and suffering most of them will have to go through is not worth the benefit (if there even is one) of breeding them.

and obviously these people are just trying to make a profit off it :-\


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## riotfox (Apr 16, 2010)

aw poor things. i do not confess to know much about rat genetics, but i strongly agree that no breeder should be breeding for something that is known to cause health issues . to be honest, i do think that its a bit more than a personal decision, because it is the rat, not the breeder that has to really deal with the consequences. and rats do not care how they look .

i dont mean to offend anyone at all, so please dont be angry, breeders


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Anyone who breeds manx X manx doesn't really know what they're doing in the first place. Homozygous Manx should only be bred to heterozygous partners. The best partner ship is het X het because of the lack of homozygous genes they don't have the lethal combination. Just like in extreme whites, there is a specific, lethal combination of genes, that a good knowledgeable breeder can avoid.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

i did not know that part. i was just throwing in an example but here is the reply i got from that breeder along with my message

from: courtney ducharme
to:elizabeth Minton

lol- wow you are an idiot aren't you. You should research things a bit before you spout off your stupidity.
Lack of tail has no effect on a rat's body temp- a HAIRLESS rat has issues with that & more health issues- hence why I don't breed them anymore.
Manx rats are very healthy and have no more health issues than a tailed rat. The only issues manx have is if you cross 2 manx together then you can have spinal issues from crooked spines to spinal bifidia. That is why you cross a manx with a manx carrier, or a tailed Manx for manx babies- and you only get 1-2 normally in a litter- most often you get none. 



--- On Sun, 10/24/10, Hoobly <[email protected]> wrote:


From: Hoobly <[email protected]>
Subject: New Inquiry From elizabethminton
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, October 24, 2010, 7:10 PM


The Hoobly member elizabethminton has sent you an inquiry!
To reply to this member simply reply to this email...

Re: Your Ad "Manx Rats For Sale" (ad number 1489800)
------------------------------------------------------------

selling or breeding manx rats is inhumane. rats can not regulate their body tempatures and can have bad balance if they do not have a tail. this is wrong of you to be selling this type of rat as there ar so many unknown health issues with this kind of rat.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Wow, perhaps some more people can message them the truth.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Kiko, there is no truth here, only opinions on what is or is not humane.

Harassing someone, is not a good way to get a point across, so it would not be wise to send out a lynching party of people, to attack the breeders.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

my point exactly. how can you breed somthing not knowing genetic issues caused by the mutation you breed and how much the animal may or may not suffer due to that mutation. i think this person is a BYB. there are a couple posts from "ratsrus" a rattery but this person seems to not be affiliated with a rattery of any type. i did not attack this person in any way and i copied my whole email message as you can see, but aparently this person felt harrased. oh well i assume its a BYB as it says nothing about a rattery and the person came onto me very unprofessional


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Manx rats really do have health issues more then tailes rats.

this breeder is CLEARLY a profit breeder that does not know what they are doing. They did not even respond in a civil manner, breeders need to learn that some people WILL criticize and they need to respond in a professional manner.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Emailing someone and telling them they are inhumane, is an attack. 
They only came back to you, with the same attitude you gave them, so honestly I take no sides there.

I mentioned attacking, because Kiko suggested that more people message the breeders about it, but that would be simply inappropriate. 

Again, the issue of inhumane, is a personal opinion, and shouldn't be forced on others.
If you have a problem with someone's practices, then don't buy from them.
If they are causing illegal harm to an animal, then report it to the authorities.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I never suggested the person be messaged rudely. 

The person is no breeder by any standard. I think the person should honestly show proof that what they say is true, and they are breeding healthy manx rats.

I think any true breeder would gladly show that kind of proof.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

I didn't say you mentioned to message them rudely. 

I agree. Any breeder worth anything, should have some credentials of some sort. 
Pedigrees are nice, especially with hairless, and manx animals. This would be a good way of showing that you raise a healthy line, if you in fact do.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

So I think it is fair to ask that of that this breeder.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

it was very unprofessional and that is what led me to belive this person is a BYB. a rattery would not have reacted in that manner


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Agreed. And a very reputable rattery focuses on IMPROVING the rat health lines not furthering the breeding of a sickly mutated line.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

also $75 a manx rat shows shes only in it for profit... 1. not a ratery. 2. very unprofessional when confronted. 3. huge rediculous price. as someone else said "it better be made of solid gold"


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

75!?!?!?!
To heck with gold that rat had better live 20 years and tap dance on command lol


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

I'd pay $75 to see a tap dancing rat. LOL.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I just might as well xD
But since i doubt these rats are tap dancing, unless the convulsions from there seizures caused by god awful breeding counst then I see that this person is a useless excuse for a breeder and should get a real kick in the toosh.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

yup id pay to see a tap dancing rat but other than that absolutly not. poor manx rats


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

There is such a thing as Waltzing, and Dancing rats and mice, but I would never pay a single penny for one. :-[


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

it was just a joke lol. id never even heard of those kinds of rats till now


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

* ratteries off hoobly selling manx*

http://blueskyrattery.weebly.com (1 posting)
AD:1483460

rattiesrus (2 postings)
AD:1045322 and 780535

*looks like a BYB selling manx*
AD: 1489800


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I agree, that breeder is an idiot. $75 a rat? Unless she is spay/neutering them.. thats stupid. And placing intact manx rats is just plain idiotic.... people see how much a profit they can make.. a feeder breeder would pay that much if they thought they could recreate it then sell them to pet stores. Not just idiotic, but very irresponsible of the breeder.

LOL Hairless rats don't have issues with temperature, they have a higher metabolism that creates energy and keeps them warm. They regulate their temp thru tails. Doesn't that in itself prove this breeder isn't knowledgeable.. her reply also suggests he/she is not very mature. All breeders come under criticism and have to learn how to handle themselves. They should be able to explain their ethics if they really believe in them.


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

Blue Sky rattery is a very good rattery. I can vouch for them being very professional, and they have the health and well being of their rats in mind as a top priority, not money.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

TEK used to breed manx rats and he was soo careful with that. His rats got their pelvis x-rayed etc...But even he got out of them. I don't think manx rats should be bred at all. It allows them to get out into the less ethical breeders where it does become very inhumane. The petstores used to breed high-whites (with megacolon) in my area, then stopped and went mink/pearl merle. Recently megacolon and those pretty rats have made a resurgence. This means unehtical people are just mass breeding and they don't care how many die because they are profitable. I know of many BYB's who think of it this way. They die young too, so they don't cost too much to the "breeder" 

There's a lot of rats that I think should only be bred (and extremely carefully) by very ethical and responsible breeders...hairless, even double rex, manx should be totally stopped, and high whites. But the not so ethical breeders allow these rats out to anyone, and then the animals and the fancy suffers.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

i have talked to a guy from blue sky rattery yesterday. he did sound very prefessional when i questioned him. much appreciated. and i am not throwing the ratteries on hoobly out to the dogs. i am mainly trying to show that disguised BYB out to the public and make them people aware that if its not listed as a rattery not to risk your rats health etc. this is the post on hoobly that set me off along with that horrible email the lady sent me when i confronted her. this lady on hoobly claiming healthy manx rats was very unproffesional and immature.

*
looks like a BYB selling manx
AD # on hoobly pet classifieds: 1489800*


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

*new update on that BYB off hoobly*

Re: New Inquiry From elizabethminton
From: Courtney DuCharme <[email protected]> Add to Contacts 
To: Elizabeth Minton <[email protected]> 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol- I advertise publicly. I however do screen people who email about them. If someone seems ok to me- my final thing is to send their email/ info to Tony and he let's me know if they are ok to sell to.
I really don't care what the people on the forums think to be honest- about 10- 20% on there are sane normal people. The other 80-90% seem to be people just looking to attack people or whine about life. I used to read them alot- but do not read my rabbit, rat or dog forum anymore unless bored. I have 4 rat breeders that if I want answers on something I know I can trust.
I take it you've never been around manx rats yourself if you think they are all unhealthy & have spine issues. I've never had one born with spine issues, I do not however cross manx to manx- that is where most of the spine issues come in from what other breeders who have manx have told me. 
I know there are healthy lines of hairless- Tony & Corey raise them and theirs are fine. I think Al also has them. I don't like the having to make sure they don't get cold, the lactating issues some lines have- and about 80% of the ones I've been around, because of the lack of lashes- have a little eye goop- I work at a vet's office- so those look unhealthy. I don't care who breeds them- I don't want to breed them. I won't even cross 2 rexes together cause I don't want them!!! 
As far as price goes- that is the normal price on them- only people who really want and are serious about breeding them will get into them. I personally have paid as much as $50 on a tailed rat that I really wanted, $1500 on a dog, and $175 for a rabbit- those who are serious about what they want are the only people I worry about. I don't care to deal with flakey people who bitch or whine about everything.

* Courtney DuCharme
Eeyore's Ears Rabbitry
English Lops & Rhinelanders
http://eeyores-ears.tripod.com
Eeyore's Tails Rattery
Fancy Rats 
http://eeyores-tails.tripod.com * 


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Elizabeth Minton <[email protected]> wrote:


From: Elizabeth Minton <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New Inquiry From elizabethminton
To: "Courtney DuCharme" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 1:34 PM


they can still have spinal issues and intestinal issues no matter. go onto rat foums and tell people on there about how your breeding and selling manx rats publically. that s so irrisponsible. if you love rats you wouldnt sell them publically to people who are most likely gonna try to breed them irresponsibly and cause more rats to suffer unnescisaririly. also i have notified people on there and they have made comments about the rediculous prices for those rats. they say "they better be made out of solid gold if im gonna even pay $20 for a rat". because of all the issues associated with manx rats so soon in the genetic discovery alot of people will not pay that sort of money. im not bashing you for breeding them, im bashing you for selling them publically. you never know what neglagent people are out there. oh and for the record i own 6 hairless rats... one rex is prego and i have had no issues about genetics or anything


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

i always read too a person who breeds more then one animal is not all that good too (ie like them rabbit breeding and rat breeding) but i am no expert on breeders at all so i may be wrong.

here is where i read the "red flags of breeders" http://blackwolfrattery.com/redflags.html


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

yeah it shows they arnt determined and focused on one species


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## Nagi (Sep 19, 2010)

Rhasputin said:


> Blue Sky rattery is a very good rattery. I can vouch for them being very professional, and they have the health and well being of their rats in mind as a top priority, not money.


How do you know this?


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

Elizabethm said:


> Re: New Inquiry From elizabethminton
> From: Courtney DuCharme <[email protected]> Add to Contacts
> To: Elizabeth Minton <[email protected]>
> 
> ...


13)	Breeder charges more for popular varieties.
Good breeders should charge the same amount for all rats, regardless of variety. This is for the simple reason that all rats are equal. In fact, different colors and different varieties may even have come from the same litter! Breeders who try to charge different amounts are trying to apply a different value system to different varieties. This creates an artificial demand for certain varieties. The change in charge between different varieties may also be an attempt on the breeder’s part to make money off the more popular or “rare” varieties. from http://blackwolfrattery.com/redflags.html#13

Reading the "Red flags" there is many with this person.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

holy cow. that raises many flags on that breeder i foun on hoobly who is a rabbit, dog, rattery


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

people will see this woman selling these rats for $75 and think hey, it can't be too hard to breed them, and look at all the money i can make!

she should be able to screen out the good and bad owners through adoption forms and consulting. charging more is NOT the way to go about that. there are tons of idiots out there who think money is disposable.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Have you asked them why they charge more? My double rexes have a higher adoption fee because I have them on a different diet with supplements and they also come with some accessories and a specific care schedule. But no where near $75 a rat lol.


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

ema-leigh said:


> Have you asked them why they charge more? My double rexes have a higher adoption fee because I have them on a different diet with supplements and they also come with some accessories and a specific care schedule. But no where near $75 a rat lol.


this was her answer in the email up top there:

*As far as price goes- that is the normal price on them- only people who really want and are serious about breeding them will get into them. I personally have paid as much as $50 on a tailed rat that I really wanted, $1500 on a dog, and $175 for a rabbit- those who are serious about what they want are the only people I worry about. I don't care to deal with flakey people who bitch or whine about everything.*


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

I charge more for my show mice. 

I think it's a bit childish that we're sitting here smack talking someone that we don't even know. :-\


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

im not smacking her anymore. i figured she was a BYB but it turns out that shes just not dedicated to just one species. shes a rattery, dog breeder and rabbitry


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

we're not smack talking her, really. it's criticism that every breeder will eventually come under and should be prepared to deal with in a respectable manner. unfortunately this breeder really didn't... and so it's not really helping her case lol.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

IF she's breeding rats that only a other breeder will want she should not be advertising on hoobly or craigslist etc. 
Most breeders don't even sell potential breeding stock to other breeders, they waive the adoption fee.

A good breeder should have a high level of transparency to potential adopters. A good breeder should stick to one species otherwise they are not doing justice to any of them. A good breeder shouldn't even do rescue and breed, for the same reason. IF you really are trying to improve the rat overall you should just be concentrating on that, not the adopters, just your animals, and your line.

I don't believe ANY breeder should be advertising like this, it should be word of mouth, their mentor's recommendation and their website. I think this person IS a BYB.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

ditto. she obviously doesnt care about her rat line if she is breeding 2 oher animal species. im not a rat breeder but i think cats kinda follow the same line so heres is my experiance with cats..

i took in a siamese a co worker brought me who was in active labor and had a gash in her head from being struck by rice milling machinery, they were going to shoot her because she was a stray... obviously though someone threw her out on the streets in the middle of nowhere knowing she was pregnant. i brought her home, lucky i had just finished building my rescue pigeon loft which was empty so i put her in it. she delivered 5 babies... oh crap. i spend every hour that i wasnt in school tending just those kittens and mom. the babies had fleas right after birth from mom, developed nuemonia, had to be hand fed for 1 week, lost 1 kitten because of it. 3 week old kitten developed 7 absesses in her head, 1 week old kitten got his ribcage torn open, the other two kittens battled butt infections for 3 weeks with me because the mom didnt clean them well enough. it was a chore but all 4 kittens lived and found homes including the mom and gyro is one of the boys who battled a butt infection.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

> she obviously doesnt care about her rat line if she is breeding 2 oher animal species.


I'm not defending her here, but that is an opinion not a fact. Until you know all the facts and her circumstances you can't jump to that conclusion. I've had 1 litter of puppies from my dog and may have another in the future... obviously never at the same time I would have a litter of rats though. Also when I buy my first property I will also be raising chickens... will that mean my rats suffer? of course not. I fail to see the logic behind just one species being allowed. Would a person with 50 breeding rats not have to put in as much time as the person with only 20 rats and 2 dogs? I can certainly understand if the person is animal farming and keeping too many animals than humanely possible to care for... but you can't write one rule and apply it to everyone until you know all the facts of their individual situation.

Although I do agree this person may of had good intentions once.. she has totally gone off track as a good rat breeder - I think the defensive response just proves she was already aware of that though. Jaguar is right, every single breeder will come under criticism. If they believe in their ethics.. they will stand by them and be able to explain them.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ema...if you had a kennel and a rattery you just couldn't do both to the level you should...you have one dog, and you are careful not to let it interfere with the rattery happenings, so its totally different.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

If you were breeding 2 dogs with litters, 3 rats with litters and raising 10 chickens all at the same time it would be a bad thing but that's not the case.

I know someone who is dog breeder and a chinchilla breeder, she does only 1 litter at a time and does a great job.
i think it only becomes an issue when they are lowering the level of care each animal gets because of time, and just stretching themselves to far to socialize so many babies.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

*what is the name of the guy who works at blue sky rattery in pensylvania*

maybe. is anyone familier with the name guy who runs blue sky rattery from lancaster pensylvania.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Okay I think I understand you now. When the animals suffer thats when it becomes a red flag. I've never understood the people who have several litters at a time... even if you CAN technically stretch yourself to it - the animals could have so much time and more dedicated to just them. (esp due to the amount of rats per litter)


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## Rhasputin (Oct 20, 2010)

If you own a farm, you often have to birth tons of different animals of different species all at once. 

I have 4 species breeding in my house. And all are recieving exquisite care. 
I also have several litters at once, with no problems. All of the animals are socialized and happy, fat, and grow up to be in excellent condition. They have to be, since I'm breeding for show standards.

I mean, you should SEE some of my baby mice. The mothers have such good diets, that the little fuzzbutts get little mousie man boobs.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

lol how cute... mousy man boobs


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

When you have a farm your not exactly breeding to 'improve the species'. You wouldn't really care too much about the pedigrees of your chickens, or that they receive their one on one time lol. I hope to have a farm when I buy my first place and I would be raising livestock. Although I'm a stay at home mom (to my rats lol), the farm would be my 'job'.
Not that I won't put a lot of hard work into them, but for example they wouldn't be dropped from the program for slight conformation errors... like a rat would. Health and temperament would be important, but I can't stand back and watch the generations mature and take all the precautions you would when pairing rats.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

also if your breeding manx rats it is more important to give them more time and effort since they are still being so called perfected. they should have more time and care which they can not if you are beeding multiple things. if your breeding manx rats they shoulod be your main focus.

NOTICE: JUST POSTED YOUTUBE VIDEO OF MY BABIES


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