# Poor Katie - very sad update



## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, my poor little Katie is getting worse by the day. She's no longer able to clean herself at all - if she tries she falls over. She's not able to find her food bowl easily, but when she does she scoffs it (so no problems with her appetite). She's lost a lot of weight too.  My poor old girl

But, not all news is bad. Today is the best day she's had in the last few (I managed to get some experimental meds from the vet - an anti-inflammatory called Medrone? Today's her first day and it seems to be easing her a little.

These vids were taken this morning - approx 2 hours after her tablet. Usually she wouldn't be able to do a lot of this, and wouldn't be responsive to encouragement. You see me stopping her trying to get underneath the table? A few days ago she would have just backed up and tried again in stead of realising she couldn't go that way and try another. It's not much, but it's something 



Apologies now for those of you with sound. The 'boobie' comment from my mum is something I didn't even realise until I'd uploaded the video. I have no idea what she was doing - but trust her to open her mouth when the cameras turned on lol


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

aww poor girl. She does look bad but at least she's moving around now. ):

Hopefully this new medicine combo will keep her going uphill. Good luck and *hugs* to you and Katie


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Thanks Poppyseed 

In fact, she's better tonight than I've seen her in a while now.



Normally she's not been able to sit up and clean at all - ok she does fall over a lot, but she's sitting there cleaning away! She's also sitting there munching away on a corn on the cob (stolen from my dads b-day lunch at the pub today lol) - looks like she approves huh?



AND! Using her water bottle! She's not been able to sit up and drink from this in almost a week, and I've had to resort to adding extra water to her babyfood mix. 

I know it's not a cure, but it's so great to see even the smallest glimmer of her old self back again.

And please excuse the state of her cage - I cleaned her out last night with fresh towels - but this is the state she leaves it in overnight. She gets very confused with her food and bathes in her babyfood more than eating it =/ I'll clean her out again tonight, never fear!


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## madeittothemoon (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

I'm glad she's feeling better... hopefully this continues!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Me too  Although I'm fairly certain this is the build up to 'the end', I'm glad I can at least ease her suffering a little bit


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## Katie_Renee (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

i love that your adorable naked rat is named katie...cause I am an adorable naked person named katie and I've never met a katie I don't like!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*



Katie_Renee said:


> i love that your adorable naked rat is named katie...cause I am an adorable naked person named katie and I've never met a katie I don't like!


LOL. My Katie is definately a Katie you would like, she is a right sweetie


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Well, I just thought I'd post an update - see if any of you have any ideas on things I can do to help make life a little easier for her.

The vids below were taken today - the pics last night. She's been eating quite a lot this week, so she's put on a lot of the weight she'd lost in the last couple of weeks.

Her mobility is terrible - she's decided that sleeping in her cube hammock is a little too much effort now, so sleeps in front of it instead. Her day is usually spent taking meds and crawling between her babyfood bowl and bed. I've also found another three tumours in her abdomen  to add to the 4 regular mammarys just under her skin. She's still bright and eager. Everytime I pick her up she's bruxing and boggling on my lap - and she enjoys the half-hour every morning when I crawl back into bed and she lays on my chest (I think she's playing sick to get spoilt lol)

She's drinking what she can, the babyfood has a lot of water in it so I'm lucky she's eating that. I'm also supplementing her with water with a little orange squash mixed in fed to her in a syring - again she'll take it, but sometimes under protest. I've had 3 bottles of ensure shipped over to me from the US, so I'm saving them until she really needs it.

She's going downhill slowly, but I'm not going to give up until she tells me too, or she tells me she's ready. We're aiming for christmas, so she can have her 3rd xmas.

So, here are the pics - she's laying down pigging on some mince pie (she'll eat almost the whole thing overnight



















And here are the vids - she's been having a bad day today  You can hear her bruxing in a couple of them, she normally does that when I hang around the cage


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## Macabri (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Poor baby.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Well, today the poor old girls decided that she's not going to eat any more. I can't interest her in anything but chocolate ensure and a chocolate drop.

She's also started getting very stroppy - completely unlike her - and her nibbles are turning into small bites (I'm sure she's not meaning to, she just can't control herself any more)



I think it's just going to be a wind-down to the end now.

My poor little girl.


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## pooky (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

have you taken her to the vet?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

Many times, she has what we believe is a pituitary tumour - and now tumours (although still reasonably small) throughout her body


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - vids*

I woke up at 3am and found that she'd managed to crawl out of her fleece blanket and was sprawled out in the corner of her cage, freezing cold. She was still breathing, so I brought her (and her blanket) into bed with me and tucked her up in the crook of my arm and tried to go back to sleep.

At 4am I woke up again, to find she had moved slightly, so decided it would be easier for us both if she slept on my chest. 

Another sleep broken hour later - she started making these rattly sounds in her chest with every breath. And I knew then that this was going to be it - I just kept her comfy, stroking her while she struggled to breathe. This lasted until perhaps half past 5 in the morning, and suddenly she started gasping for breath. Well, this is when I KNEW it was it, so I held her in my hands, have her kisses while she was gasping and whispered to her to not fight...to just let go.

The gasping fit stopped - and she was deathly still, but still breathing. So I held her in my hands, just waiting to see what would happen. Then a second fit hit - she couldn't breathe at all. I was absolutely beside myself by this point - only because I hate seeing her try to breathe (even if it was dark - I knew she was awake and knew what was happening) and again, it stopped.

So, I just sat there waiting. She started to breathe again, and lay there in my hands pretty much unresponsive. I just sat there for perhaps an hour, whispering to her - telling her it's ok to let go, that she's been such a brave girl and that if she closes her eyes she'll find a pretty light to follow to see all her friends and family again. (I know she doesn't understand, but i hoped my voice might comfort her) Then, as if by a complete miracle, she just started bruxing as I stroked her. Quietly at first, and then louder and louder - I could almost hear her boggle in the darkness! It wasn't a pain brux - she was just glad I was there I think.

And she bruxed for almost another hour straight, as I lay down with her and stroked her. Her breathing started getting a little bad at one point - but I think she actually fell asleep (the bruxing stopped) and so did I.

This morning (LATE morning) we both woke up (I managed to get maybe 2 hours sleep, so did she) and he's no worse than she was yesterday - in fact she's been moving around quite a bit and she's perfectly happy drinking the ensure that I offer her, also a couple of mouthfuls of babyfood!

I don't know what the heck last night was - but it's proved to me what a darn little fighter my old girl is. I'm not giving up on her while she's still battling on! In fact, I even feel quite ashamed that I was telling her to give up last night - she obviously wanted to prove otherwise.


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## Macabri (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

Wow...just wow.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

You are at the stage where there are going to be ups and downs. One day she may not bounce back but it sounds like you are prepared for that. She's a brave little nakie is your Katie. 

The little mammary tumours just ignore them, they are most likely cysts that nakies get and both Bella and Lisbet developed them. They have only grown so much and do not bother them in the least.

We both had broken sleep taking care of our wee compromised ratfriends ((hugs))


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

I'm hoping the little ones aren't serious - there are more and more sprouting up every day, and it's sad to see them - you can especially see them when she's on her side, they're all underneath her. I'm not worrying about them too much - after all, I think it's safe to say they'll never get a chance to grow enough to compromise her quality of life.

There are some inside her abdomen - which are bigger, but again - I think I've come to the same conclusion.

Last night just scared the sh** out of me - it's finally set in that my little girl isn't going to come though this - and that *hurts*. You know, you think you are prepared but when it comes down to it, you never can be truly prepared, can you?

Now I'm trying to pick out a nice crematorium for her - one that treats rats respectfully - not as 'disposable waste' - and I'm being silly enough to avoid the 'c' word in front of her - just in case  

I go back to work on wednesay - THAT is going to be horrible, leaving her.


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## Macabri (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

After losing my baby so fast, I can't really say if it's better that way or to have more time before the inevitable. Either way it sucks.

I know what you mean about crematoriums. I was really worried, but I think I got lucky with the one I chose. (Haven't gotten my baby back yet, but it will be soon.) If you lived out this way I would have recommended them.

Let us know if there's anything we can do for you.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

I have a wonderful little ritual I do then I put them in the freezer in gift boxes to be buried at my mom's property when the ground thaws again.

Yes it is very hard when you finally come to the conclusion that there won't be a cure like with a stubborn URI...

Do the little tumours on her belly are flat and under the size of a penny? Are they directly under her nipples?

And yes, sudden is good for them (no pain, no suffering) but sad for us (not time to say goodbye), but I despise lingering most of all, so overall I prefer sudden.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

Sudden is always easier for them, thank goodness. But it always hits us the hardest. One of my boys, Eddie, woke me up absolutely screaming at 2am one morning (typically, it was the one weekend that my parents weren't home - no shoulder to cry on (although I'm typically not one to show tears to anyone)) and he was struggling to breathe, he was absolutey gasping for breath. The day before he was healthy as anything. Two minutes after grabbing him from his cage - he passed away in my hands. I've never been so devestated in my life - as the passing of each of these blessed little creatures is like a shard of glass to the heart but when you're not expecting it...it's heartbreaking (you all know what I mean) That is the one time in my life where I can honestly say that I cried myself to sleep.

As selfish as I am, when it's a drawn out illness, like my poor Katie, it gives me a sense of acheivement to say that I've done everything possible for them. I can't look back and say that I've failed them - because I know that I've been the one there fighting for them when no one else can. I just want to repay her for even a fraction of the unconditional love that she's shown me throughout her lifetime.

I'm in an overly sensitive mood tonight (lack of sleep) so I apologise for my ramblings

Edit - Sorry, Lilspaz. I forgot to say, the lumps aren't restricted to just beneath her nipples, although 4 of them are (as that is the spots of her original tumours + 1 extra) the others are throughout her torso, along her sides, middle of her tummy, crook of her front arm etc. I've also noticed two more in her neck today. Is it cruel for me to allow her to continue? I don't know - I do know that she's not in pain. She's enjoying the attention she's getting being held all the time (we've got to keep her warm and she prefers being on my chest to in her cage - she panics) and bruxes whenever I stroke her face. Although her quality of life isn't so good right now, she's still eating (what I give her - ensure only but she's comfortable) and she's not showing any signs of discomfort. I look into those little eyes and I know she's not ready yet - I don't want to be the one to take that decision away from her 

Plus, I found out tonight that my regular vet doesn't use gas to pts. So, unless I find another vet, I refuse to put her through that stress at the end of everything. I just *will* *not* *do* *it*. She deserves better


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## rat_ratscal (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

well, maybe you should sort of well, i don't know really how to say it right but ask her? if she's fighting for it, and really wants to be alive maybe you should give her her last wish just to be alive with you for as long as she can, because she wants to be with you and please you. if she just gives up, and she doesn't want to go through with it anymore, and she just wants to stop trying, tell her it's okay, she can choose and you'll be alright with it and supportive of her either way. if she stops trying then maybe you should let her go, if she wants to fight then let her fight.


im sorry if that sounds completely dorky, but that's the least i can do for you


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## Macabri (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*



Ration1802 said:


> Plus, I found out tonight that my regular vet doesn't use gas to pts. So, unless I find another vet, I refuse to put her through that stress at the end of everything. I just *will* *not* *do* *it*. She deserves better


I agree with that 100%. 

I really hope you don't have to make the call, and I'm sure you know this already, but remember to put Katie's needs first.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

Katie will, and will always, come first.

Last night showed me she's not ready. When she is ready, I hope she will let me know


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

I have had the "talk" with ill or older compromised rats. Some even seem to listen. :roll: They will tell you when its time for help from you, some are more definitive than others, even others you may have to take the decision away from them at the end, when there's discomfort/illness involved. 

If the tumours are small I wouldn't worry. Lisbet has quite a few on her, armpit, chest, etc...but they don't grow. I am told by more experienced nakie owners to just leave them alone and not worry about them. It sounds like your Katie is not ready to go yet, she's enjoying her life right now


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - bad night last night - update*

Last night we had one small set back - her breathing started going wheezy again for about 15 minutes - I think I'll attribute it to her layin on her side for so long.

I went out yesterday and bought an electric blanket for her, and can't figure out how to use it properly. **** thing says 9 heat settings - I can only find 2 - on a little bit and off! lol. So I attempted rigging her a cage up on my sofabed where half of the cage has the blanket - half hasn't incase it gets too warm - and so I now sleep next to this monster










Although last night, after her funny breathing, I let her sleep on my chest again so I could turn her over every now and again. (Tell you what guys, I'm getting to the stage now where a good nights sleep sounds like heaven). At 6am I woke her up to have 3ml of water + orange squash and at 10am I made her have 5ml of ensure.

I'm going out for about four hours soon - so I'm going to be a very nervous out shopping. I hope she'll be alright left alone 

Lilspaz, the tumours that you mentioned sound very much like ones that Jake has - I always assumed they were little cysts like Ben and Gus get, but perhaps they are tiny little tumours instead. They haven't grown in months, I keep a close eye on them anyway. Even Ritchie (regular furred) seems to have had one pop up in his armpit (hasn't grown) and Lou (also furred) has had one pop up - harden then stop growing. (I'll be looking to get it removed after xmas is over - but it's not causing her any trouble at all). Oh, don't you just love lumpity bumpity bits on our babies


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

Well, I think she's forced me to make the decision.

She's still acting well, but she's becoming mildly neurotic and chewing her arms. Her eyes just, well, aren't Katie any more. Her teeth - as she's not been able to eat solids for a while now - have thickened and sharpened and I noticed that she's made her mouth bleed because of them.

Stupidly, I did try asking her. Explaining what I felt like I had to do ... but she gave me nothing in return. No yes or no. But she hasnt bruxed once all day - yesterday it was constant - now ... nothing.

I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or not. This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make :'(

All I can do is sleep on it, right?


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## rat_ratscal (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

sleep on it, see what happens tomorrow, im sorry


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## Macabri (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

It sounds like Katie is definitely at the point where you have to make the decision. You've done everything you could for her, and still her quality of life is slowly but surely declining.

She needs you to be strong for her.

Do sleep on it, and if you still feel the same way, it's probably time. 

I'm sorry.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

Give her one down day and if she is still the same tomorrow the decision will be easier to make.

I am sorry.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

She surprised me again!

Last night she had another bad 'spell' where she was gasping for breath and suffering from incredibly raspy breathing. It got to the point where she stopped making the noise and as I held her, I felt her little heartbeat slow down and I could barely feel her breathing if I put my lips to her nose.

I fell asleep holding her, hoping that she would pass quietly in her sleep.

And I've just woken up (perhaps 2 hours later) to her demanding her breakfast! So far, she's polished of 6ml of ensure in 30 minutes! AND she's wanting more!

She's not giving up lightly, is she? I was SO sure she'd made her decision last night.

Is there anything I can do about her sharp teeth? Perhaps find a way to file them down - to make life a little more comfortable? I think it's only the top ones that are causing her problems


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

Filing is a definite no-no, rats teeth will break. Honestly Ration, your vet could clip them in necessary, but with her day to day existence I am sure a bit of discomfort is preferable at this point.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

That's what I thought - and with her wanting to 'eat' everything that comes near her mouth, I don't think I'd be able to do it anyway.

I've also found that she's been chewing her toes - and some of those nails are looking quite nasty. So, maybe it's not her teeth after all but she's scratched her mouth with her nail. So those will be getting trimmed tonight - it shouldn't be hard. She's got almost no movement in her back legs any more. 

Yesterday I thought that would be that, I was getting up the guts to accept the fact that it would be better to let her go - but she's so darn stubborn and just SO together right now - she's fighting with every inch of her little body. I don't think I have the heart to tell her to stop, not until SHE'S ready. She's come so close, what, three times this week? And she keeps fighting the light and coming home to me.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - decision made (i think) *

Its an exhausting, but wonderful time, fighting alongside your little trooper. 

You will be sad when she finally does go, but you will know that it was her decision.

Definitely trim those nails. I found they nibbled/nipped because they lost motor control...part of the whole process...normal


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

Sorry if you guys are getting sick of me now - I just thought I'd let you know the latest. See if any of you have experienced the same/similar

Katie's still here. In fact, I came home Thursday night to her trying to shuffle walk around her cage! (She hasn't walked in a week now) I was so happy I cried. She was so SO wobbly and could only take two steps then fall over, but after everything, it was so good to see her wanting to. She did it again yesterday (a couple of times) and seems to be stronger in her top half today, so rather than me taking her feeding syringe to her lips, she will bring her head to meet it.

That's good news right? Not good news in the sense that she will survive this - but that she's feeling better and stronger.

I've switched her from her complete ensure diet (poor kid must be a chocolate addict by now) and am giving her a warmed up babyfood/water mix (with ensure as dessert) so hopefully with something a little more substantial in her tummy she might want to do a little more.

Her breathing still has bad phases - although it's not laboured at all normally, she will just go through a few minutes at a time (at irregular intervals) where she clicks/wheezes when she breathes. 

She's still restless at night though - as she gets most of her clicky phases then, so I'm still keeping her on my chest to sleep (and it keeps her warmest - but I've got to be careful I don't overheat her!) so it's still restless nights for me. But other than that, I think she may have decided to try stick around a little longer. What do you think?

Edit - Lilspaz, I trimmed her nails and since then haven't noticed any more bleeding from her mouth (I give her little bits of bread to 'suck' to check). So I think it may have been her nails making her mouth bleed. She's been chewing herself a lot too - but I just apply some neosporin to the wee nips and leave it at that. They're not too bad.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

I wonder if Katie had a stroke instead? And is improving like Mattie? Keep it up! You're a wonderful ratmom and enjoying each day of small improvements or stolen moments. Btw I am taking Mattie and Dolci (my newest crisis..) into the vets today. I will amend my thread to add Dolci to my updates.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

I daren't hope for that - because she's been getting worse (and not better) for so long, I've assumed that she's going to pass eventually and that will be the end to her suffering. If it's a stroke she's had, it means her tumours (internal) will pose much more of a problem for her long-term. Regardless though, I'm going to do everything I can for her - she deserves that much 

And I'll keep my eye out for your input about Dolci, if you want to PM me before you update, I'd be interested (well you know what I mean) in hearing about it. Hope all goes well! My fingers are crossed for all of you


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

its good to hear she is feeling a bit better today. it sounds so much like how my spider finished her days. you are being an excellent ratty mom, a fact i'm sure katie is proud of. please continue to keep us posted on her progress, i don't think anyone is getting tired of hearing about katie and her small triumphs. she's such a trooper.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

Well, I've had a good christmas with my old girl 

Christmas Eve (believe it or not) she was trying to walk around. At one point, she crawled out of her towel and onto (well, next to and began to paw) my lap! Unassisted, which was GREAT!!!

Last night she decided he had had enough of sleeping on my chest and woke up at 5am to a missing rat - it turns out she had crawled off of me and down to my feet under the covers lol. So tonight she will be sleeping in her cage for the first time in almost 2 weeks.

Her feeding is going well. She's still horribly thin, but her food intake has gone from 6-8ml in a sitting to 12-14ml. I've also weaned her off of the Ensure and she's on babyfood with water now. In total, she has about 4 tsp of babyfood a day, which is slowly increasing. Today, she even tried some solid food (turkey!) when offered, but although she seemed very interested, she can't chew the food properly to swallow. I gave her a little to keep her happy and 15 minutes later it was all down her front lol. ANOTHER improvement, she started licking today. Something that she hasn't been able to do in a while. 

Bad news, she's still chewing herself profusely. She's chewed sores into her chest (she happens to have a tumour in an armpit - so it's a particularily good target for her teeth) and arm - which I am treating with Neosporin twice daily and vaseline overnight. She's also scratched up her legs (where her back feet kick around her shoulders) but they are now healing.

All in all, I feel like this is a good update so I thought I would share 

I have a couple of videos which I will post tomorrow (right now it's late - 1.15am). I have no doubt that this is probably only a temporary improvement - I'm not getting any hopes up - but by god she's fighting with every little inch of her. She was so lively this morning that she was more interested in trying to crawl /slither/push herself around she didn't want to sit still and eat!!!

It's getting very hard though, staying up late for her 12am feedings (which last 45 minutes) and being up again at 6am (for her breakfast which can take up to an hour!) Plus the restless nights sleep almost every night, when she decides that she wants to wake me up by wriggling around (trying to sit up) or chewing on MY fingers to tell me at 3 or 4am that she's getting hungry. But, I'm glad that I'm doing SOMETHING right, by keeping her around and more importantly, keeping her WANTING to stay around. 

I tried explaining to some of my family members why I can't stay at their house as long as I usually do, or that I can't drink this christmas because I have a poor little girl who requires my full (sobered) attention at home - and they think I'm wasting my time when she's going to die anyway. Yes, it's been a struggle (for me and her) and I don't see it ending anytime soon (or at least I hope not!) and yes, I can appreciate that many view her as just as rat - expendable. But, when you come through what Katie's been through, you can't but help look at her and realise that she wants to be saved. She WANTS to be here, just a part of the family.

My immediate family (especially my younger sister) has really showed themselves as true rat-lovers these last couple of weeks. My little sister will feed Katie when I'm working, despite anything she may have to do, including exam revision. My dad wakes up during the day when he should be sleeping (he works nights) to come and check on her, making sure she's not too cold or hot. And my poor mum puts up with me sharing every little achievement Katie's made. Not to mention all of them giving up time with other members of our family this christmas, so that we can come home and feed her or make sure she's ok. I'm very lucky to have them around - when my energy is depleted, I know they'll step up and take over while I recharge


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## Ratty1100 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

13.35

Good to hear that she makes improments. These little animals really want to LIVE. I really hope that she will stay with you for many days.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

These rats can be quite the inspiration to people who normally wouldn't care. Last year I boycotted Christmas with the family on principals. My sister told me if I could miss Christmas over a rat or 2 (very old, very ill and had to be injected daily) then they should be just put to sleep...NOT!

Its lovely to hear of Katie's improvements, the going from Ensure to baby food is a great one! Keep trucking little Katie Girl!

Its exhausting I know, nursing these sweeties, but you just couldn't stop could you? You just keep trucking alongside your girl. ((hugs))


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - she's still going*

Here are the promised videos (and a couple of pics)

Christmas Eve

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/befferoo/Rats/?action=view&current=DSCF1973.flv

Boxing Day (26th December)

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/befferoo/Rats/?action=view&current=DSCF2013.flv

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/befferoo/Rats/?action=view&current=DSCF2014.flv

Today

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/befferoo/Rats/?action=view&current=DSCF2017.flv

She's a regular Speedy Gonzalez today, huh? And, she finally ate babyfood straight off a spoon. All I'm having to do is give her liquid by syringe. In total today she's eaten 2/3 of a small jar of babyfood. 

And a couple of pics










Katie on Christmas Day curled up in a double snuggle pouch sent to us from our Secret Santa  She loves it (she's asleep in it now!)










And her today, exhausted from running around so much lol


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## GracieBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

omg i can't believe her story I now wish I had been as good at that as you when my little gerbil was passing. She was tumbling around the exact same way and would not eat but I tried I layed in bed and completely poured buckets of tears all over my T-shirt I layed there with her for about 2 hours and then I had to put her in her cage i set her into a smaller cage and put it beside my bed (she would not have stayed with me if she was able to move better later in the night and I roll when I sleep) She survived the night to my surprise but passed away later on that day  I never really held her she did not overly enjoy being held she liked to run around her cage. But I never thought I would miss her soo much I loved her so much I could not even imagine what 
I would do if this happened to my little gracie girl u and katie are soooo strong


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

If she has a bunch of tumors... and is in such bad shape... don't you think it is a little selfish to keep trying to push her to live longer?

I mean... I know you love her, but I can't imagine her life being very fun at all. She is probably in constant pain, she can barely walk, she can't eat normal food, and you have to assist her most of the time.

I think you have pushed her as far as she can go, and maybe it is time to let her go. I look at those pictures and videos and see such a sad rat


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

Yashu, I've been through this in my head many MANY times, and you're right. If I believed for one instance that she was in pain or suffering, I would take her to that vet and help her on her way.

But she's not getting worse - this week she's improved leaps and bounds.

She's not in pain - despite the tumours (which seem to be relatively slow growing) the majority of which are mammarys within her skin. She's showing no signs of pain at all - and the medication she is taking would help with it anyway (if she was)

Those video's aren't a 'look how sick she is' video - but a celebration to a gorgeous old rat who refuses with all of her might to give up right now, and who is willing to fight through everything to stay here with us.

She is happy, I can look in her eyes and see the old Katie back. She's not sad at all. This is a girl who in the past 6 weeks has had at least 4 chances to go, but she's jumped back every time even better than before.

Her quality of life may not be that of a normal rat - but she's got a different life now. Her body doesn't want to do what she wants it to - but that's why I'm here to help her. I'm not going to take the easy option, especially if she doesn't want to.

I honestly, honestly, am 100% prepared to do what's necessary for her, when the need arises. But right now - she's hanging on (better than ever) and I'm going to be beside her the whole way.


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

I hope so. The little girl reminds me of my hairless, and I know I am going to face these same issues someday. I don't know how far I could take it and if I could take it as far as you have. You have a lot of patience and love for this girl, not that I don't, I just don't know if I could take the ups and downs over and over, and with tumors, it would make it even worse... like a clock ticking down. 

They are smart, loving, and caring... they only live a short time. It is somewhat a curse.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

PT rats can be very heartwrenching but often they are more confused than suffering overall. Its hard to watch the videos and see the pics, but only the owner can see the glint in the eyes that means they want to keep fighting.

Mattie told me quite clearly that she was not going to fight anymore and quietly within 24 hours she passed in my hands.

You would be surprised what you will do and how far you will go if it actually happens.  I have a nakie girl with an eye issue...burst eyeball from a scratch (I hate eyes ) and we are fighting side by side with so many ups and downs, but now it seems to be turning out alright 
I had another girl who had a skin condition called Pyoderma...very rare in rats. We fought for 5 months, it was horrible, but she wasn't going to stop. Most people would've put her to sleep, but we managed her pain and she was the most upbeat rat I know. Selene is one of my inspirations in life.
http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pyoderma_figure_4.php

Yashu, don't stress over it now, you may never have to worry about it or at least not for a long time. Wait and see where you are mentally when it happens. I used to think your way...I couldn't go that far, but you can also surprise yourself...I got over my fear of needles to learn how to inject a beloved rat sub-cutaneously...she would've died if I hadn't. :roll:


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

Well... my little tiny naked guy (LTNG) is already having what I suspect very strongly are epileptic seizures. True hairless have so many problems it seems.

I can take care of the rat physically... but I have so much empathy, that it is hard not to project myself into the shoes of others, even animals. I know that if I was in such shape that I would not wish to live. I really wouldn't. If this rat here really DOES want to fight and keep going, then I suppose it can be inspirational. I have empathy, but I am also a man of logic... and it comes down to a quality of life issue in my head... the thing that makes me not completely disagree with what is happening here is because she (the OP) is putting so much effort into caring for her. Right now, I think the condition is balanced between two fronts. There is the reality of what is happening, that the best you can do is buy a little more time, and then there is the fact that this is an animal that you love and that has (obviously, or the owner would not care so much) shown love in return.

Entropy will always win in the end. It is sad... even our lifetimes are so short within the perspective of the universe, a rat's is just a blip, but you have tried to make it a very memorable one.

Our oldest rat Tubes... she had an inner ear infection that we treated on our own with antibiotics. It did permanent damage to where she has walked with a tilt her entire life. I thought to myself then: "if it gets any worse... " but then the treatment was over and she has been a normal rat ever since, albeit the tilt walking. I can tell she is not in any pain... so I think I know how that goes.


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## rat_ratscal (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*



lilspaz68 said:


> (I hate eyes )


that made me laugh for some reason

im glad to hear how katie's doing, she sounds a lot better than she did before, im glad it's going better for the 2 of you. and i agree, it's very annoying when family members say your wasting your time ver something they know is very important to you :roll: i hope things all turn out well eventually


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: Poor Katie - good update - WALKING!!!*

Well, I woke up this morning (albeit a little late, Katie let me know) and she had her breakfast. She was intent on cleaning her spoon of baby food - licked almost every little bit off of it. I managed to get 8ml of babyfood/water mix (she will not drink plain water under ANY circumstance when she can have something so much yummier)

I had to take Daphne and Lily to the vets, so I left Katie with my sister, Susan, while she was laying in.

I went to the vets - got her soy milk for her slim-fast, more babyfood (I ran out).

I called my dad to ask how Katie was - he said she was with my sister but he would check.

Then I got a call back saying she had passed away.

My sister had looked at her when the phone rang (me calling) and she was breathing - my dad walked in and she stopped.

What a battle from my little girl, she put up such a fight right till the end. I don't know if she was waiting for me to leave her alone (I'm projecting, I know) or if she'd just decided that it was time. Regardless though - my little girl died with dignity - something she's maintained her whole life.

I will try post a proper memorial post later. Right nowit's still only sinking in. I can't believe it - but I'm glad. I think it's hit so hard because I wasn' there with her.

To Katie: Play safe, little baby...You can be a normal rat again, running around and picking on the boys (don't be too mean to Abel, please). I love you xx


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Awws... I don't even know her but I am sure she will be missed. Right now I am a little scared, my male hairless is not doing well. In the past 24hrs he has lost 1/4 of his weight, won't eat or drink. I have been feeding him ensure and gatoraid to get him through the night so I can take him to the vet... the vet's office opens in 4 hours now. I am starting to understand more of what you have been going through.

18 hours of this has been hard enough, I can only imagine how hard it was for how long you helped Katie hang on. I have these thoughts in my head about what it could be or might be... and what I am going to do about it when the vet gives me the diagnosis.  I know it is not going to be good.

Katie... I am sure, did not want to leave you. I may have to tell Katie's story to my Camel, so that he can say hi to her.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

yashu said:


> Awws... I don't even know her but I am sure she will be missed. Right now I am a little scared, my male hairless is not doing well. In the past 24hrs he has lost 1/4 of his weight, won't eat or drink. I have been feeding him ensure and gatoraid to get him through the night so I can take him to the vet... the vet's office opens in 4 hours now. I am starting to understand more of what you have been going through.
> 
> 18 hours of this has been hard enough, I can only imagine how hard it was for how long you helped Katie hang on. I have these thoughts in my head about what it could be or might be... and what I am going to do about it when the vet gives me the diagnosis.  I know it is not going to be good.
> 
> Katie... I am sure, did not want to leave you. I may have to tell Katie's story to my Camel, so that he can say hi to her.


Good luck with your little one at the vets. 

Don't think about it too much right now, that's all the advice I can give. Wait until you hear what they say, THEN make any decisions that need to be made. Remember, only YOU can tell how your pet is feeling - vets know the facts, not the animal. My poor Katie would have been put down weeks ago, had my vet had his choice. But she gave me the gift of these last miracle days, for which I will always be thankful.

My thoughts are with you and your little fluff-less today. I hope everyting goes well and the news is better than you expect.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am terribly sorry to hear about your brave girl.  Some rats will wait until you are gone before they pass...no idea why. The instinct to be alone? Wanting to save us from seeing it? Who knows.

I am very glad she went so peacefully at home. I am praying that Dolci will do the same as she regressed last night and we spent the night together.

Yashu, whats wrong with your little boy?








for all of us!!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> I am terribly sorry to hear about your brave girl.  Some rats will wait until you are gone before they pass...no idea why. The instinct to be alone? Wanting to save us from seeing it? Who knows.


I think she knew it was time - I was only gone for an hour, and the minutes before I left she was laying upside down in my hand playing the 'finger bite' game we used to play with her. I like to think that she waited until I was gone to spare my feelings - or maybe it was a little like 'finally, the human's gone and I can get me some peace..' but whatever reasoning she had, I can't fault her. She really did do it with as much grace and dignity as one can expect from our darling princess Katie.

Regardless though, she gave me good last memories. Even if I took it for granted that she would be here when I came home - and forgot to say 'Goodbye, I love you' to her. But, I think she knew I loved her. It didn't need to be said (and I've said it enough the last few weeks).

I'm really sorry to hear about your Dolci! (It's not been a good xmas/new year has it?) I hope, if it's her time, she passes quickly, quietly and without pain. Bless her. Give her a cuddle from me, ok? *Hug*


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

i'm glad to hear that katie finally passed on in peace. she was such a fighter, and i'm sure that she will be forever thankful for the hard work you put in to keep her comfortable. she hung on long enough for you to get ready, and she left when she felt the time was right. you are a wonderful rat owner, and you are an inspiration to us all.


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Yes... I hope Camel has the same strength. I took him to the vet and he has pneumonia, he lost 1/4 of his weight, but I didn't know it was mostly fluids. We kept him alive long enough to get him to the vet. They gave him a subdermal injection of fluids and he has most of his weight back, but his lungs are still so damaged and he is still having so much trouble breathing. I think we can fight it if we can give him enough fluids and batryl. 

I have never seen anything like it, a rat waste away to nothing in such a short time, no matter what we did he just got worse. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Your Katie story really is an inspiration in a way, of how far that we go for our little guys. 

Katie has not died in vain. What you went through and what you have posted will help future generations of rats and owners learn and cope, and just maybe more will be able to pull through.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

yashu said:


> Yes... I hope Camel has the same strength. I took him to the vet and he has pneumonia, he lost 1/4 of his weight, but I didn't know it was mostly fluids. We kept him alive long enough to get him to the vet. They gave him a subdermal injection of fluids and he has most of his weight back, but his lungs are still so damaged and he is still having so much trouble breathing. I think we can fight it if we can give him enough fluids and batryl.
> 
> I have never seen anything like it, a rat waste away to nothing in such a short time, no matter what we did he just got worse. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Your Katie story really is an inspiration in a way, of how far that we go for our little guys.
> 
> Katie has not died in vain. What you went through and what you have posted will help future generations of rats and owners learn and cope, and just maybe more will be able to pull through.


Poor Camel, his shocking weightloss is from all the energy he burns just trying to breathe. I use another ab with baytril, my fav is zithromazx, but doxycycline would be good. And if there's just too much inflammtion you can also add in oral prednisone. This can really reduce that inflammation and they start living and breathing, rather than living just to breathe.

((hugs))


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> Poor Camel, his shocking weightloss is from all the energy he burns just trying to breathe. I use another ab with baytril, my fav is zithromazx, but doxycycline would be good. And if there's just too much inflammtion you can also add in oral prednisone. This can really reduce that inflammation and they start living and breathing, rather than living just to breathe.


I agree. I've never had a rat with Pneumonia, but I have read up on the subject as a 'just in case'. Your best bet is to treat it aggressively, I think

http://ratguide.com/health/lower_respiratory/pneumonia.php

I know I have enough problems getting rid of Jake and Lily's 'crackles' sometimes - they're on Baytril, Doxy AND they have to get a Dex shot. It just will not clear up otherwise

Maybe, to keep his fluids up switch him to a babyfood diet (Stage 1 or 2 babyfood)? I don't know if he's eating or not (I can imagine that he doesn't want to much) but with babyfood, you know they are getting fluid with every mouthful. If he's not eating, why not mix babyfood into water 2 parts babyfood / 1 part water, or the other way around depending on whether you want to give him food or fluid mostly and hand feed it to him?

I've recently purchased a book which says the daily fluid intake in rats is 20-30ml. (I didn't know this - but it's a regime I used with Katie -although as she was inactive I usually didn't exceed 20ml) Remember though, Nakies have a higher metabolism then regular rats, so fluid will pass quickly, I found it better to give a little often (every 4 hours or so)

All little titbits of information - but I hope they can help you 

I wish you the very best luck with little Camel


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

We have been aggressively treating him, and also the other males... the batryl seems to be working along with making sure he got his nutritional drink and nutritional fluids.

We caught it early enough and started giving him fluids and food via syringe and our last bit of batryl allowing us to make it to the vet the next day. If we did not do that, chances are Camel would have died that night. What the vet did saved his life, and with the continued treatment and a new bottle of batryl, he is coming around. He has some appetite back, drinks from the water bottle, although he still breathes hard and heavy, he is getting better. The batryl is also helping the others' congestion and they are all showing signs of improvement, though none of them got as bad as Camel since they are not hairless (as in, they don't have a compromised immune system) 

The spirit of Katie is alive and well inside Camel. What is it about these hairless freaks that we will go through so much to make sure they are ok?

Thankyou all for the information, and the good thoughts towards Camel. He will be zooming around the floor and hoarding food under the couch (grrr! *shakes fist*) again in no time.


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## rattusnorvegicus (Dec 31, 2007)

sorry for your loss :sad:


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Wonderful news yashu!!!

You go Camel!!

I know, my nakies are 30 months old now...I only got them about 4 months ago. Someone needs to explain the Nakie Rules to them. Lisbet has chronic URI...poor scarred lungs. Bella the one who almost lost her eye/life...is doing very well with twice daily applications of ointment to keep that eye moist...and a yogie treat after the ucky smear. 

You should see these little old ladies run on my floor, climb my couch, etc. they both have good weights, scrawny Lisbet is almost as heavy as her sister.

The will to live burns very bright in these 2


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

The naked ones are the smartest ones I have. I have one naked male and female and both have discovered the floor and how to climb everything that is possible to climb. Camel, he will jump right onto the floor and then get bored and jump back on the couch later on to nap with the lazy haired ones. LTNG, she will climb everything, anything, and everything else, and then find her cage and stop for a snack and a drink before climbing back down for more running around. When she makes it to a spot that she likes, or rather, a spot that really annoys us, she will do a strut as she walks around trying to find my wife's coffee, or some expensive electronics to put teethmarks on. Camel knows when it is time to go back and will go hide in the one spot we can't reach him easily, he pulls out the towels we stuff into cracks to get behind the book shelf, and if he feels ignored he will come to you and tug on your shirt or pants just to get your attention with those big floppy ears and that humped back. 

I don't know why, but they are always the smart ones.

At the vet they asked "what color is your pet?" I said "uhhh... skin". Heh. After the subdermal injection, he looked more like a camel than even before with a large hump of liquid on his back.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

LOL. They're definately smart little rattigans, that's for sure. Katie was always a very clever rat - she could find paper/dish cloths, socks (and underwear) even if you didn't think they were around. They all went to the magical rat black-hole that is my sofa, never to be seen again.

Ben is the only of all of mine who has mastered the shelves in my living room - he will climb a mixture of cages, a safe and piles of books to get to his Build-a-Bear house. The others cant quite get it. 

How is Camel? Still getting better?


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Much better. Much better. Now we are worried about LTNG... she has a sneeze. That little crazy girl will go on the hunt for coffee every time she is out. It doesn't matter we put the cup, she finds a way to climb to it and next thing I notice is a rat licking from the cup.


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