# does breeding rats shorten their life?



## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

i just wanted to know cuz i don't want rosie, maylee, scout or sadie to die sooner just to have babies


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Intentional breeding isn't discussed on this forum. There are plenty rats out there needing homes, without breeding more. I don't know about if it would shorten their lifespan, I wouldn't have thought so, but there could be complications with the pregnancy.


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## lovinmyworm (Feb 18, 2008)

If you want more rats, go to the Humane society, where they put rats to sleep every single day because they have no room and no one wanting to adopt them!! As for shortening thier lives, who knows and who cares. Breeding rats unless your an actual breeder (as in know your own rats histories, study genetics, ect. in which case you wouldn't be asking on this forum) is NEVER ok.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

Well some shelters don't have rats..and don't keep them. Not disagreeing with anyone...or even agreeing with the above. Don't think you have to jump down his throat because of a question.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> Well some shelters don't have rats..and don't keep them. Not disagreeing with anyone...or even agreeing with the above. Don't think you have to jump down his throat because of a question.


I was referring to pet shops too. Also a lot of the big pet store chains now have adoption sections.


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## Mimzy (Apr 21, 2008)

Petsmart wouldn't be one of them? Because I know some people say don't buy from petsmart and petco and others say go for smaller business'. That's good to hear none-the-less...about the Adoption note. That's pretty cool.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Mimzy said:


> Petsmart wouldn't be one of them? Because I know some people say don't buy from petsmart and petco and others say go for smaller business'. That's good to hear none-the-less...about the Adoption note. That's pretty cool.


I think Petsmart and Petco do? I think I've read people mention they do on here. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, as I'm in the UK. Pets at Home have an adoption section too.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

There is so much involved in breeding. If you are even considering it, stop where you are, and talk to established breeders. 
If you were to breed your rats, so many things could potentially go wrong that a shortened lifespan would be the LEAST of your worries. 

If you want babies, find a rescue that needs a foster home for a pregnant female.


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## geebus (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorraia said:


> If you want babies, find a rescue that needs a foster home for a pregnant female.


Excellent suggestion Sorraia!


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't agree with breeding either but to answer your question It can in a sense that breeding pregnancy and having babies takes a lot out of the mom and if not done properly could could really be harmful to her and the babies. It's really not suggested unless you really know what your doing. And as you can see not really a recommended topic on this forum. Please if you are thinking of doing it, don't. It's best to leave it to the good experienced breeders. And like people mentioned there are a lot of shelters who need rat adoptions. And to answer the other question. You can adopt from petco if people have left their abandoned rats there. And Petsmart I have never seen adoptions (they could still have them)but they sell pet rats there where as petco mainly sells feeders.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It can definitely shorten their lifespan....good breeders will only breed a female 1-2 times in their lifetime or 3 at the very most for other breeders (not common)...no more than that as they know how much it takes out of these poor ladies.  Rat mills and BYB's will breed constantly and the rat gets completely worn out and can be susceptible to illness and complications and early deaths. They need several months between litters to recuperate fully.

Sorraia is a respected breeder, and she knows what she is talking about, I would definitely follow her advice.


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## SamAnthrax (Jan 5, 2008)

Petsmarts will only have animals for adoption if their drop offs. But were not allowed to keep them on the floor so you have to ask, it would be in what we call the ISO room where we keep the sick animals.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

SamAnthrax said:


> Petsmarts will only have animals for adoption if their drop offs. But were not allowed to keep them on the floor so you have to ask, it would be in what we call the ISO room where we keep the sick animals.


Do they advertise to enquire about animals that are available for adoption?


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## Barbiie (Sep 8, 2007)

*Are Yuuh Considering Breeding All Of Yuur Rattie Girls?  I Agree With Every One Here Dont Breed Them Rehome If Yuuh Want More . . And Yes Breeding Any Small Animal Can Weaken Them A Bit So They Dnt Live As Long*


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Off topic much?

The short answer is yes, it can definitely shorten their lives. I'm sure there are articles on breeding, just check around the 'net. 

Best of luck, and kudos for caring enough to ask before just jumping in to "oh I want cute little babies" without regard for your pets' health.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

ok look guys thanks... but we we're not wanting more rats... i'm sorry, but my mom has snakes that she intends to breed, and she said that rats are healthier for them than mice, so she wants to breed the rats so she can feed the babies to the snakes... i'm sorry, i wish she wouldn't do it, make my babies breed, only to have their babies eaten, but she said we had to. that was another reason my dad got a male, so they could breed.  i HAVE to, it's not a question of should or should'nt, i just... is there anyone who can tell me how to do it so nothing goes wrong?


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## AceYourFace (Jan 4, 2008)

Zoe.H said:


> ok look guys thanks... but we we're not wanting more rats... i'm sorry, but my mom has snakes that she intends to breed, and she said that rats are healthier for them than mice, so she wants to breed the rats so she can feed the babies to the snakes... i'm sorry, i wish she wouldn't do it, make my babies breed, only to have their babies eaten, but she said we had to. that was another reason my dad got a male, so they could breed.  i HAVE to, it's not a question of should or should'nt, i just... is there anyone who can tell me how to do it so nothing goes wrong?


Tell them one you can buy feeder rats and if they cant afford to buy feeders for their snake they shouldn't have a snake! They do not have the right to make yours breed for food. That is ridiculous! Snakes will need to feed often which means your rat will be breeding constantly which means she will die much sooner than you want her to. I can't beleive your parents would put you in this situation. There is no way to teach you so something doesn't go wrong because this whole thing is wrong. I feel bad for you. If your dad bought a male for breeding why didn't he just buy a female as well and leave your rats be. not that it would make it any better.


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

my dad gave his female to me because he's bad with GIRL rats apparentlly... my mom isn't going to feed the snakes ONLY rats, i have a mouse for breeeding, and we buy mice for the snakes anyways, the rats are just healthier for the snakes when their pregnant. and she's only going to feed the rats to the females. i'm going to do everything i can to keep the breeding conditions for the rats completely safe... i'll start looking it up... i'm sorry, but my mom isn't planning on giving up her snakes, she's intending to breed them when they're older, and they'll need rats. sorry 
          :wink:


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

ok can anyone give me ANY advice on how to set up good breeding conditions? PLEASE?!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Has your mother never heard of frozen thawed rats or mice? Live rodents can do some serious damage to a snake and its inhumane to feed that way and possibly endanger her snakes.

I would give away ALL my rats to a good home if my parents told me I had to do this.  

If they insist on it, then they can buy their own **** rats and do what they will, but I would be NO part of it.


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

they'll only eat live, the guy who bred them for her fed thee live, and apparentlly it's supposed to keep their instincts intact, they WON'T eat dead ones. i don't care what my mom say, but i AM giving some of them away, (a bunch of my friends want them, and i'll give to the pet store) it's better than being fed to a snake.


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## cinderella (Sep 10, 2007)

As a reptile owner and pet rat owner, I completely understand the plight and rats are much healthier for the snakes (and feeder rats from rat mills arent.)
Still, no matter what, Ill say this, even at risk of being attacked, DONOT allow your mom to get your females pregnant more than 2 times!!! Do NOT allow back to back litters.

Encourage her that by third litter the babies will have lost their healthiness for her snacks and they will be smaller and many stillborn. (Therefore mice would actually be healthier)

BTW, many feeder breeders, still encourage feeding dead by humane euthanisia and feeder breeders rarely get more than 4 decent litters to feed.

The same is going to be with any mouse you breed BTW


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## Hallie-Mae (Jul 31, 2008)

Give them away 8O Seriously.
I saw a video of a baby rat getting eaten live on youtube, and I was in tears. It's the most disgusting, inappropriate, cruel and horrific thing... They can't even see or hear what's going on.... 
I know it's not your fault, but that's so cruel of your parents, not only to do that to the rats but to put YOU through this when you quite clearly love rats  !

Gosh, I'd offer you advice on how to breed them properly but seriously, what's the use if they're going to be eaten alive  Imagine the mother's distress... They care for their young so affectionately....


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

NO. rosie would like, die of depression with out me, and i don't even have anyone to give them to, so NO. i'm going to talk to my mom and see if we could do THIS. breed one of the rats we have now with my dad's rat, then wait until their some of their babies grow old enough to have babies of their own with the other male rat we're getting. after breeding them twice, give that rat away. (to a friend or the pet store who we trust)


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

my mo wouldn't let me give them away anyways. you guys are making me feel bad about this, but there NOTHING i can do!!!


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

You asked if it would shorten their life. The answer is yes, it most likely will, especially if they are being bred indiscriminately back to back.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Breeding any mammal will shorten the life if not done in a respectful way to the animal's health.

Think about people: if a girl can have a baby at 13 years old, does that mean she should? Say she waits until she is 20, it is much better for her body, but what if she gets pregnant right after having the baby? Humans are the same in this: if you don't take care of your body you will die younger than if you took care of yourself. Rats are no different. There are MANY complications that can come up with breeding which could kill your rats. And if you don't allow them sufficient time between litters, it will absolutely shorten her life span. As has been said, never never have them breed more than 3 times in their life no matter what.

As for "proper" breeding, there are places online that can help with that, but I'll see if I can give you some initial advice that I've found myself...

Wait until the girls are at very least 4 months old to breed, and it is much much better if they are at least 6 months old. You want the babies to be with the mom for 5 weeks after birth before they leave their mom to live independantly. You then want to give her about 2 months before breeding her again. This means, if you breed at 6 months, the mother will be 8 months old when the babies are weaned, and then 10 months old before you breed her again. That would be one litter every 4 months, and only two litters per mother. And do NOT breed the female if she is over 12 months old.

Just to think about how many rats you would need to breed "properly" this way, for the health of the mother rats, if you have 4 mothers you are only getting an average of 10 rats per month. Rats might have only one pup born, or over 20. Average is around 10-12. Will the gravid snakes need more than 10 rats per month? In that case, you either need more rat mothers OR breed them in a way that will absolutely shorten their lives.

If you go ahead and calculate the costs of raising those rats to a size needed to feed the mothers while caring for the mothers properly, it is NOT cheeper to breed them than to get them from the store... Although, home-bred rats might be healthier if you are using a good food for them.

But remember, the girls could die durring labor, the babies might be stillborn or die before they are weaned, the mother could bleed to death from internal wounds and you'll have a set of pups you need to hand-raise or kill quickly to prevent their suffering, or find a fostor mother rat which might not be easy to do. The mother also might reject her babies, or even eat them!!! There are so many possible things that can go wrong. I am very fortunate that the surprize litters from the girls I adopted who were already pregnant, none had problems but one and she decided to eat 8 of the 13 babies she had durring the next weeks (I think she wanted protein, although she was on a good food and extra good supliments of protein and calcium and fats...). I then pulled the other babies away from her and fostored them with a momma rat I bought from a store's breeding stock of feeders... she was a good mommy, and I kept a couple of her kids too... 

If your parents don't give you the choice in this matter, maybe a proper breeder might take you under their wing to assist you in the best care you can give them reguardless of the other issues involved...

It's horrible how some people treat their animals, but I'm glad to hear that you want to do whatever you can to take the best care of your girls you can even when your parents are putting you in a very unfair position.


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## lovinmyworm (Feb 18, 2008)

You guys have wandered down the road of intentinal breeding!! 

Well how about this. How about your tell your mom that African soft fur rats are technically healthier than regular rats. Why don't you breed those little crap heads instead of your rats! ASF rats are better for snakes anyways, they are just super bad for socilization so they really don't make good pets. They will jump when you reach in the cage, they will bite, and are generally bad news!! I know alot of people who have snakes and every single one of them feeds ASF and no fancy rats!!! You will need a large rubbermaid container with holes punched in it with good food and good bedding for them, a nursery cage for the mom and babies, and 18in hemostats because trust me, you don't want to touch the little crap heads!!


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Buggzter said:


> Breeding any mammal will shorten the life if not done in a respectful way to the animal's health.
> 
> Think about people: if a girl can have a baby at 13 years old, does that mean she should? Say she waits until she is 20, it is much better for her body, but what if she gets pregnant right after having the baby? Humans are the same in this: if you don't take care of your body you will die younger than if you took care of yourself. Rats are no different. There are MANY complications that can come up with breeding which could kill your rats. And if you don't allow them sufficient time between litters, it will absolutely shorten her life span. As has been said, never never have them breed more than 3 times in their life no matter what.
> 
> ...


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

lovinmyworm said:


> You guys have wandered down the road of intentinal breeding!!
> 
> Well how about this. How about your tell your mom that African soft fur rats are technically healthier than regular rats. Why don't you breed those little crap heads instead of your rats! ASF rats are better for snakes anyways, they are just super bad for socilization so they really don't make good pets. They will jump when you reach in the cage, they will bite, and are generally bad news!! I know alot of people who have snakes and every single one of them feeds ASF and no fancy rats!!! You will need a large rubbermaid container with holes punched in it with good food and good bedding for them, a nursery cage for the mom and babies, and 18in hemostats because trust me, you don't want to touch the little crap heads!!


ASFR are even better because there is no smell to them like you get with rats and mice. ASFR are somewhat temperamental but there are some that are not like that. The only reason why they are like that though is because they are only bred for food and not for health and temperament. I hope to be getting some soon myself and working on the temperament issues they have.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

lovinmyworm said:


> Well how about this. How about your tell your mom that African soft fur rats are technically healthier than regular rats.


Ah yes, those African soft fur rats. There was a thread on them, let me find it. They didn't sound awfully friendly 8O 

http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=10856.html


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Actually, when I mention that you should not breed them past 12 months (some do it at 15, but I'd say better to be safe...) is not the hips issue. 

Rather, if you look at any animal, if you breed a female later in their life there are many more possible issues. From the bit I've read, it's around 12-14 months that those issues start appearing, sometimes late as 18 months or so. It's much like women going into menapause between age 40 and 60... In your late 30's you have more problems with birth and with the babies - same in rats. I'm not saying the doe couldn't give birth at that age, but the older she is the more likely she'll have problems and/or the babies will have problems. 

Thank you though for trying to help me understand it better.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

I never breed a female at that age myself, I will breed a female for the first time at the age of 6 months, sometimes 5 if I am breeding her to a genetic dwarf male. I will never breed a female after she has hit 18 months old what so ever. 

But I see where you're coming from. Females, if bred for the first time at or after the age of 12 months, she will most likely abandon the babies because she won't know what to do, assuming all goes well with the birthing.


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

ok soft fur rats sound great and all... but out here they're 50 bucks. no, snakes would only eat like, one rat every 2 weeks... i'm still asking for someone to give me proper breeding conditions please. i will talk to my mom about not breeding them continuoslly, and i'll show her all this, plus i'll ask her if we could stop breeding them after 12 months. look i'll do eveything i can, but i NEED to know proper breeding techniques and conditions ok? please?!


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by breeding conditions? Much info is online if you look, but...

If you mean HOW to breed them? The girls are able to get pregnant every 4-5 days usually for about 12 hours I think. You can just put a male and female together for about a week and she'll most LIKELY be pregnant. That's what alot of feeder-breeders do, and what some pet-rat breeders do as well I think. Then, the female gives birth 19-23 days after getting pregnant. Labor is usually an hour maybe a bit more for big litters I think, and often at night. You want the male to be separated from the female before she gives birth since she can get pregnant again within the first day of giving birth, and THAT will shorten her life more than anything else (litters while pregnant...). Just provide her with good bedding and a safe maternity cage with no shelves and a solid bottom and lower sides so as the babies can't fall out or get hurt. A 20-gallon tank will work for the first couple weeks after birth if needed - then you can move mom and babies into a cage with 1/2" spacing or less where the babies can't get out through the cage bars. Give the mom and babies plenty of water and high-quality food. Especially since they will meet that certain fate, you want them to be as healthy as you can for the sake of the predators.... Plus it's the right thing to do no matter what happened to the babies once they were weaned. 

If you search on the other sites online, you'll likely find more information about caring for a pregnant mom and litter, as well as how to breed properly if you insist on breeding as your mom apparently is... Good luck.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Zoe.H said:


> ok soft fur rats sound great and all... but out here they're 50 bucks. no, snakes would only eat like, one rat every 2 weeks... i'm still asking for someone to give me proper breeding conditions please. i will talk to my mom about not breeding them continuoslly, and i'll show her all this, plus i'll ask her if we could stop breeding them after 12 months. look i'll do eveything i can, but i NEED to know proper breeding techniques and conditions ok? please?!


If you go to a reptile show you can find ASF's for cheap, like as little as $1 a piece.


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## cinderella (Sep 10, 2007)

african soft furred rats, even at reptile shows seem to vary per area and state.

Ill be at a show next weekend though if she wants to give me a location, I can see if I can pick up breeder info of asf near her. Those, IMO, atleast the ones Ive come in contact with are nasty creatures


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

I think you meant to say that females come into heat every 4-5 days and not get pregnant every 4-5 days. And the normal gestation period for a doe is usually 22 days (3 weeks and a day). 

I keep pregnant does in 10 gal tanks for nurseries about 3 days before her due date until the babies are 2 weeks old and have opened their eyes, then I move them into a cage that can house them without them slipping through the bars. You'll want to separate males from the girls as soon as they hit 5 weeks old and not a day later. The little boys can get their sisters and mother pregnant at this time which is why it necessary to separate. You can also give the doe a supplement while she pregnant and nursing and also give some to the babies as they are weaning.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Zoe, it's a horrible position to find yourself in. Unfortunately, this forum doesn't condone the discussion of intentional breeding, nor the breeding of feeder rats.

However, considering the situation .. rather than continuing the discussion in public, perhaps a few experts in the area would be willing to step up and offer their names for Zoe to PM regarding the issue?

Further discussion of the feeder breeding though will be removed


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

i live in timberlea nova scotia... it's near halifax... if you could find a cheap asf breeder that would be great thanks


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

Oh wow, you're in the Maritimes as well? I'm from Saint John, New Brunswick myself. 

You're not going to find ASF's anywhere in the area unfortunately. We always seem to be about 5 steps behind Ontario and the US. Is there anyway you can try your parents snakes on pre-killed? You shouldn't have to breed your personal pets to feed your parents snakes .


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## Zoe.H (Aug 4, 2008)

like i said. they'll only eat live. once you get them on live you can't get them off it


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Buggzter said:


> Actually, when I mention that you should not breed them past 12 months (some do it at 15, but I'd say better to be safe...) is not the hips issue.
> 
> Rather, if you look at any animal, if you breed a female later in their life there are many more possible issues. From the bit I've read, it's around 12-14 months that those issues start appearing, sometimes late as 18 months or so. It's much like women going into menapause between age 40 and 60... In your late 30's you have more problems with birth and with the babies - same in rats. I'm not saying the doe couldn't give birth at that age, but the older she is the more likely she'll have problems and/or the babies will have problems.
> 
> Thank you though for trying to help me understand it better.


It's true that later in life there is a greater likelihood for problems in pregnancy and birthing. Part of this will depend on the line though. I personally breed my rats for later maturity and health in the long run. I breed my females for the first time around six to eight months of age. Though I rarely do so, any female bred for a second time is close to twelve months of age. So far my mothers have birthed easily, and are very good mothers. Their litters sizes have been normal (the smallest in the last year has been eight, the largest has been fifteen). Except for the one or two rarity, all babies are born healthy and survive to adulthood.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

kilas_rattery said:


> I never breed a female at that age myself, I will breed a female for the first time at the age of 6 months, sometimes 5 if I am breeding her to a genetic dwarf male. I will never breed a female after she has hit 18 months old what so ever.
> 
> But I see where you're coming from. Females, if bred for the first time at or after the age of 12 months, she will most likely abandon the babies because she won't know what to do, assuming all goes well with the birthing.


That's not really true. I have known rats bred for the first time around 12 months of age. Barring any birthing issues, they know exactly what to do and can make excellent mothers.

The biggest issue with breeding older females is that their bodies don't bounce back as quickly. There is also a possibility that the right hormones will not be in the right concentrations for a healthy birth. This can result in babies only being partially birthed, or not birthed at all. This requires veterinary intervention in the form of c-section. If this happens, any surviving babies will need to be hand-raised, as the mother is unable to nurse after a c-section. It has nothing to do with mothers abandoning their babies. Even young rats can and will abandon their babies at times. Most mammals have the instinct to mother their babies, and this does not diminish with age.


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