# !Strange Deaths!



## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

The day before yesterday I noticed one of my girls was acting a bit lethargic and I could hear her breathing but it was only a faint squeak and I couldn't hear anything in her lungs so I didn't think it was something I needed to rush her to the vet for. The next morning she had passed away. One of her two sisters (she lives with 5 girls 2 of whom she's littermates with in a DCN) was showing signs of pretty severe respiratory distress which wasn't present the night before. I took her to the vet and she got ivermectin cause of a couple of scabs on her neck (which none of the others have, I've confirmed) and doxycycline, baytril and prednisolone. I was only able to give her one dosage that night and this morning she was dead. Now the third of that litter has some sounds in her lungs, like a crinkle I guess though her respiratory rate isn't particularly abnormal and she doesn't seem to have any serious increase in effort to breath. I'm starting her on the medicine meant for her sister but I don't know what's going on. The vet said it was probably just regular respiratory issues or possibly cancer but it seems weird that they would both pass so quickly. And none of the others have any symptoms. My youngest I've only had for a couple of weeks. I kept her physically quarantined for a week, I don't have a separate air space but in that time and even now she has no symptoms of any illness. Still could it be something she has?? I got her from a local petstore, the owner of which breeds the rats herself so she's not from a mill or chain store. These three sisters are only a year and 4 months. Any information would be appreciated.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would add amoxicillin to the antibiotics you are already giving them. Usually quarantine is at least 2 weeks, but in the same air space, any bacteria would just spread anyway. It certainly could be from the new rat even if the new rat is symptom free, he can still carry it and infect new rats.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Not all your rats might get it, those with a stronger immune system might be fine. So sorry about your losses


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Carry what though? Just some random bacteria that's extremely deadly and only works after two weeks and only causes symptoms right before death? I'm not doubting that it's possible but I just want to know what it could be and how to stop it. I'm really scared. The first one who passed, Akela, she was my darling, my heart rat, I can't handle losing everyone else. I feel like I'm failing them.
I have amoxicillin, I got it from fish mox a while ago. Do you know how to mix it up and what the dosage is? I don't remember but I can look it up I think.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It could be Sendai or SDA, those would fit what you are describing


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Mix the amox with syrup (like Torani) or half syrup and half water. There are many ways to prepare it, the important thing is to know how much liquid you added to the amox so as to give a correct dose. I would ask your vet first if amox could be an issue with the other meds though.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I just emailed lilspaz as your case is very serious and urgent and she very likely encountered something like that with all the rats she rescued...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

it sounds like you have a virus running through your colony probably from the newbie.  Viruses take 6-7 days to show symptoms after exposure so the timeline is correct, then it will run through your group. The virus sheds after a week, and its not contagious anymore but then the secondary infections kick in and this is what you are fighting with your antibiotics. You are now in full on quarantine. No rats in or out. No going near other rats without either being away from your own for 3 hours, or having a very thorough shower and clothing change...these viruses can live off-host (off the rat) for 3 hours, and you can carry it and infect others with toys, fabric, and even on you, or especially in your nose (we suggest blowing your nose after your shower). ALL rats are going to get sick, but some will die quickly in the early stages and others will barely show symptoms. There are 2 prevalent viruses in the US and Canada right now, SDA being first in line as its been running through the country for the last couple of years like wildfire. Some rats may develop lumps in the middle of their throat or bulgy eyes etc (this indicates SDA). The other virus is Sendai which can also affect mice, hamsters and guineapigs (?). These viruses are highly contagious and the main reason people quarantine.

How many rats do you have? Can you medicate all rats showing any symptoms? (use the rat phone method to listen to lungs as SDA may not be as overt as you think, sometimes there will be a thunk or whine in the lungs as they constrict and the rat has trouble moving air in and out, unlike the loud respy noises you are used to with a simple respiratory infection. If you want to really prevent issues, put everyone not showing symptoms on amoxi just in case. 

Basically you are now locked down for at least 4 weeks to make sure the virus runs its course and no one else gets infected.

Can I double check your doses you are giving of the amoxi, doxy and baytril? I would need weights of rats, concentration of antibiotics and what you are supposed to be giving and for how long.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I don't know anyone with rats so quarantine is no problem. I have six now and two are showing symptoms. Yes I can medicate both with the baytril and doxycycline I have but maybe not for the full length of time. One is 490g and the other is 390g. The smaller is getting .18ml baytril and .04ml doxy. The other is .24ml and .05ml. I used the ml/mg based on the dosage and weight of the one who passed away. I hadn't plenty of amoxicillin so yes I can medicate anyone not showing symptoms. I will look up information on prep and dosage, I've done it before and have extra small syringes from previous vet visits.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

So in four weeks they'll be safe and non contagious? Whoever is left at least?
Sorry I don't have the concentrations right now. I think baytril was 22mg/ml but I can get them soon hopefully, I texted my gf asking, I'm at school right now unfortunately.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

In 4 weeks you should be in the clear. I'll check later if you have concentration. You can buy baytril and doxy online without a orescription, let me know if you want the links. I use those in the past and are working as well as the antibiotics you get from your vet. The amoxicillin powder needs to be crushed with the back of a spoon to make it easier to dilute into the syrup. I would go for at least the middle recommended dose for amox if not on the higher end. Give the amox to everyone, even if not showing symptoms yet. Keep the baytril and doxycycline for the ones showing symptoms and get more now.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would call the pet store and ask them not to sell rats for the next few weeks. Sendai and SDA can also be carried by other small pets in case the store sell other small pets too. Obviously avoid pet store in the future and get your supplies online. What happened to you is very unfortunate, and I'm so sorry it happened to you.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Baytril 22mg/ml
Doxy 50mg/ml


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I would like the links please. It's probably cheaper than getting from the vet which has a flat rate of $50 for exotics exams. Thank you for your help. I do plan to give them a call obviously I'm very distressed and I feel terribly guilty. I shouldn't have gotten anther rat, but I had the space in my dcn and I am a weak willed person.


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## Harvey&Calvin (Jul 17, 2016)

Don't feel bad, you had no way of knowing and that little rat, still needs a loving home. You are a good rat parent, you have gotten them meds, tried all you can. The rest is up to the universe. We can only do so much, we are human, not Gods. 
I am sorry for your losses. 

Could it be pneumonia? What type of bedding do you use and what type of cage do you have? I hope you can find out something soon. Best wishes to you and your rat pack.

p.s. please update if you find out anything, or the med dosage, for anyone in the future who may run across a similar problem.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Sorry I was out driving...I just check the doxy and for both rats it is right at the lowest recommended dose. The highest recommended dose would be twice what you are giving them right now. I would increase the dosage just because it is very serious, but I'm not a vet and I don't know how much doxy you have. Running out before you get more would be bad. If you can, increase to 0.06ml and 0.08ml. You could go as high as 0.08 and 0.1 TWICE a day. The vet said TWICE A DAY, right?


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I use fleece in the dcn for the girls plus blue Buffalo all natural non clumping walnut based litter. The boys are in a smaller cage because they're almost two and don't need all the space a CN has to offer. They have the litter plus just a basic paper litter. Wasn't dusty and didn't have anything extra added. I don't remember the brand. 

Thank you for your kind words, reassurance really mean a lot right now. 

Unfortunately another one passed away. One of the boys this time (the 490g with respiratory distress). He was 1 and 8 mo. On an aside his brother is now alone. There used to be three of them but one was euthanized several months ago due to a cancer. What should I do for him? I do not want boys anymore send he's too old to be neutered but I don't want him alone?


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Yes twice a day, I'm sorry if I said otherwise. I should be able to do .06 for the doxy since it's just Nym now. Oh and if you have the links to get more antibiotics on hand that'd be really great. Also, if I didn't say this thing dr said too continue treatment for 21 days except the steroid which is 3 days at twice a day 1 once a day for 5 days


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok for Baytril now...your vet did the dosage at 10mg/kg which is right in the middle on what's recommended on RatGuide. RatGuide says 5mg/kg to 20mg/kg ONCE a day. If you dose him twice a day, it is on the highest end of what's recommended. Is the baytril and doxy once or twice a day?


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Twice a day for both for 21 days


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ok so baytril is fine I'll put the instructions for the amox right now. The amox you have is the 250mg/pill, right?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Let me double check with lilspaz as she said to put the rats not showing symptoms on amox but I believe the one(s) showing symptoms need amox too. Won't take long to double check that.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

For the amox, RatGuide recommend between 10mg/lb and 50mg/lb (I converted the weights, don't worry). I wouldn't go lower than 30mg/lb. Crush the coarse powder with back of a spoon to a fine powder. Mix the powder with 4ml of syrup. Now you have a med concentration at 62.5mg/ml. For the heaviest rat it comes to 0.52 ml and 0.41 ml for the other. If you wanted to go higher that is 50mg/lb, you can give respectively 0.68ml and 0.86ml. This is the math if you have 250mg amox capsules.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Where I bought my baytril online:http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Where I bought my doxycycline:


http://www.allivet.com/mobile/p-3532-bird-biotic-doxycycline-100mg-powder-packets.aspx

Looks like where I bought my baytril also carries doxy now, but I like that one better because it comes in small packets instead of loose bulk powder that would be difficult to dose properly unless you have a scale that measure milligrams.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Thank you! I'm pretty sure I have the 250mg capsule.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

As I PM you, I once had a rat on all three antibiotics and she was fine. She got baytril and doxy together and amox 6 hours later. Don't give any yogurt or dairies within three hours (before and after) the antibiotics.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Based on what you did I did the math to get the dose in ml/g so I can find the dosages for all of them. If it turns out I have a different capsule I know what you did so I can figure out how to find the dosages for a different size if need be. Thanks again.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Good luck with your remaining rats. So you have two girls out of 5 and one boy out of two who gave already passed? It isn't your fault, what happened is rare and you brought them to the vet. You did your best.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

2 out of 6 girls. 3 sisters, 2 sisters, and the little baby. 2/3 sisters passed (the oldest girls). 
Thank you, it's just so much at once and so seemingly out of the blue it's scary and rather distressing. Plus life doesn't get put on hold for things like this so I have to leave them all day for work and classes which is really stressful.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

A quick rectification on the amoxicillin dosing. It appears that the recommendations by the Rat Fan Club on RatGuide (noted #3) are unnecessary high and that the following dosage will work just fine: 20 mg/kg for babies, and 30 mg/kg for adults. Thanks lilspaz


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Is that kg for sure or is it supposed to be lb?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

It is kg above. I directly copy/pasted it.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Girboulli, the baytril you linked me to what concentration is that? I'm not sure what 10% means. 

I think everyone has at least a little bit of noise in their lungs so I'm definitely gonna be buying more antibiotics, but I don't have enough right now to start everyone on twice a day so I'm just doing the girl who started showing first.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Clarification: the girl who started showing symptoms first is the only one getting doxy and baytril. Everyone gets amox


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

The baytril 10% is a liquid that needs to be dilated in syrup first. 10% just means 100mg/ml. There are 25 ml in the bottle, so enough to treat an army of rats, lol. Yes keep the baytril and doxy you have now for who needs it the most. I live in the Midwest and I received the antibiotics within 3-4 business days, you can rush it but it costs more.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

And yes correct everyone should be on amoxycillin


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

I ordered the doxy and baytril. Honestly it'll be such a relief just to have it on hand even if I don't end up needing it for everyone. So should I mix the 100mg packet of doxy with 2ml of fluid (flavored gatorade I was thinking because they like it and a small amount like that isn't bad for them) to make the concentration 50mg/ml and dilute the baytril with 4ml to make the concentration 20mg/ml (which is about the concentrations of what my vet gave me)?? Does that sound right? Hopefully I'll get the antibiotics sometime early next week.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes 1ml of baytril + 4 ml of syrup. I would use syrup or 1/2 syrup 1/2 water to cover the taste of the baytril. I don't think the Gatorade would be enough to cover the taste for your rats to take it right out of the syringe, unless of course you will mix the baytril/Gatorade solution with baby food instead. I used Torani syrup in the past and the rat would go insane for it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Correct for the doxy too. If the taste is too bad with that concentration and the rats refuse it, just double the syrup and give twice more. Each rat is different, I like to give the least amount of syrup possible that would get the rat to just eat it right out of the syringe...


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## Rat Feng Shui (Aug 8, 2016)

*Nebulizer*

I'm sorry to hear about this. It has happened to me several times, to the point that I started calling it the 10 hour flu. Lethargic in the morning, labored breathing by the time I got home from work, desperate breathing by late night when it's too late for the vet, then the end. 

I worked with the vet a lot on this. I ended up with a system on standby. It is a nebulizer which leads to a small plastic carry cage. The nebulizer feeds the rat albuterol fog in the plastic box which makes it easier for him / her to breathe till we can get to the vet. Also ideally an antibiotic which can be in the nebulizer fog. That means it gets to where it's needed a lot faster than the oral meds. Hint: there is a normal saline solution ( 0.9%) in a spray can for washing out eyes sold in many places in the first aid section. It can serve as the carrier for the medicine. Otherwise you have to hassle with a human prescription for the saline as well as for the nebulizer and albuterol. 

This is a pretty expensive thing ( $150 altogether? ) but after losing 5 or 6 this way I was willing. The vet says it's better than an oxygen bottle and this is a hospital that serves zoos. 

My sympathies. I know exactly how frustrating and sad it is.


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## ray (Nov 4, 2015)

Thanks, that's a good thing to know. I just spent $150 on vet bills and medicine though so I don't think that's in the budget right now, but it may be something to look into in the future.

General update on the situation: no one died yesterday so that is very very good. The girl who had been presenting symptoms still is, but it doesn't seem to have gotten worse. Hopefully the combination of antibiotics and steroid will eventually fight it off.
My other girls all sound alright. Two sound completely clear and one I think has a slight click in her lungs. I'll probably start her on baytril and doxy when more comes in. Until then I hope the amox is enough to hold it off.
My last boy actually sounds very clear. He's easy to listen to because he's big and hairless so I can put my ear right next to his lungs and hear everything pretty well. I do sometimes wish I had stethoscope though...
I'm taking Tuesday the 18th to be "Day 1" of the outbreak and that would make November 15th the four week mark where I can assume everyone's in the clear. At that point if Lupin's still ok I'm thinking about trying to find him a home. He's never been alone and now both of his brothers are gone and I just don't want anymore boys and I'm not in a position where that would be a good idea, to start a whole new group that I can't add in to my current group. But I don't want him to be all alone. He's 1yr 8mo now. I think it'd be really sad to force him through his old age with no cage-mates. So I thought if I could find someone with boys willing to take him he'd probably be happier. I'd do this with the caveat that if intros don't go well or he's not settling in or whatever that I would take him back. I don't know. I just want to do what's best for him.


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