# Rat aggression body language? *UPDATED* with videos!!!



## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

OK, so this **** saga just never ends.

Tulip's sister, Peony recently died. Tulip was very depressed and lethargic. So I went to the humane society here looking for 2 friends for her - I decided it was best to keep rats in 3's - and actually ended up taking 3. So now I have 3 rats upstairs and Tulip downstairs. I was originally going to quarantine for 3 weeks, however I decided that Tulip was so depressed and uninterested in anything that it was more important to get her out of it (and all 3 had been to my vet and got a clean bill of health). I just didn't feel I could be company enough to help her thru this - she hadn't been taken out of her cage much before I got her, and I didn't know her that well and she didn't know me. We had almost no bond (well, at least I dont' think it was recoprocated!) So I picked one of the three who seemed very sweet to meet Tulip.

So. I followed the steps listed here in the sticky thread on introductions ... set their cages next to each other ... they were very interested, and I dare say Tulip perked up almost immediately, and was VERY interested in her future sister (now called Jasmine). Then switched their cages ... both seemed pleased with this turn of events. Left them there for a bit. Then put them both in the bathtub ... and here's where it gets odd ...

At first Tulip seemed very enthusiastic about meeting Jasmine, and kept jumping on her licking her (or at least I think she was) and I thought this was a pretty good thing. Jasmine didnt' seem to mind, anyway. Both sniffed each other's butts. Both were very interested in the other, but also in crawling up my pants (LOL). OK, then Tulip "jumped" on Jasmine's back, twice, and bit her! Made her squeak. Obviously I broke it up both times - the first time I wasn't sure that was actually what she had done, then the second time I stopped introductions all together. 

Questions:

Why is Tulip being such a bitch? Is it too soon after Peony died? I really think Tulip started it, I dont think Jasmine did. I wanted this to work out so badly!

Jasmine did this wierd thing a few times where she got really low and twitched the end of her tail - it looked for all the world like a snake twitching and it was clearly very deliberate and the same every time. What the heck is that?? I was looking for things like fluffed fur and approaching sideways, etc!

Oy Vey. Any help or articles you could point me to on rat behavior would be fabulous. I didn't come up with much on a search. :?


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Seriously?

Nobody?


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

I don't think Tulip is being a bitch - I think, as the resident rat, she's just telling Jasmine she's the boss - albeit quite enthusiastically.

All intros will go differently depending on the rats involved and their personalities. The rats need to work out the new pecking order so you will get displays of dominant behaviour. Sometimes this will be done with minimum fuss, other times with lots of posturing but not much action, other times with bites and blood and fur flying. 

I've not dealt with back jumping and biting before but I'd say that's dominance. Although, where did Tulip bite? Was it Jasmine's rump or her face, because the location means different things (one is offensive and one is defensive.) 

As for the tail twitching I believe that indicates tension or excitement as a result of an aggressive encounter or when facing a predator.

This was only the first meeting so don't give up. I'm sure with time and patience all four girls will be happily living together. I've not actually owned females so can't give you any first-hand experience as to the success rate of introducing older unspayed (I assume?) females to females but hopefully others can.

In the meantime I am attaching a link to what I found to be a very informative and useful article. Hope it helps and good luck.

Cheers,
Zoe

http://www.ratbehavior.org/Aggression.htm


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Well, both times Tulip bit her on the back, just kind of around the shoulderblades. So ... that's normal? You think they can be friends? 

Yes, they're unspayed. I asked the humane society here, and they said they dont' do anything smaller than a rabbit. Also because they're so tiny I have to say I'm afraid to do it.

Thanks for the article. I"m going to read it now! I just want them all to be friends, and a family...

Thank you for the help!


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

" Aggressive neck grooming is a low-intensity form of agonistic behavior. Grooming consists of rapid little nibbles in which the groomer seizes folds of neck skin between his teeth (Miczek and Boer 2004). The groomed rat remains immoble and may peep or squeak softly. Any sudden movement by the groomed rat may trigger a bite and kick from the groomer. "

OH my god! This is it! This is what they were doing exactly!!

Wow, that article was helpful. Thanks! So ... it would appear that this is what Tulip was doing. I am going to keep trying to introduce them, but maybe we'll go more slowly. I really don't want anyone getting hurt!


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## mishasmom (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Intro's can take time. I have always been lucky on my intro's that after some sniffing they were all friends. I only have one cage that I don't do intros on as one of my girls truely does not like new rats. Take it slow and see how things turn out.


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

OK, will do. I just need to take things MUCH more slowly, I think.


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## mishasmom (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Keep us posted on how it is going and let us know if we can help you out.
Good luck


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Thanks!

Well, I let them switch cages and "talk" to each other thru the cages all day yesterday off and on. They just seem so interested in each other! Tulip's always making these little grunting noises thru the bars at Jasmine, who listens attentively. 

Today I let them onto the bed together, and the first time it went great! Yogies for all, explored our hidey-holes, and then we went back to our cages without incident! They are just so fascinated with each other.

Just now I did it again, and ... not so good. Tulip made Jasmine squeak again. AT first they were climbing all over the place, over each other, sniffing each other, no problems, everything seemed great, then Tulip charged Jasmine and bit her again! So I broke it up and kept them at a bit of a distance from then on. Poor Jasmine is so gun shy now that she fluffs up and freezes whenever Tulip is near.

I gave them quite a few yogies (yeah, that's the last thing Tulip needs, little chubbers!) and kept them at a 6 inch distance, some more yogies, let them hang out (tightly controlled!) and then put them back into their cages before another incident could happen.

Know what's funny? Jasmine is just so sweet, and she never tries to defend herself! I kind of wish she'd just turn around and say "KNOCK IT OFF!!" to Tulip, but it seems that she won't. 

Can someone guide me thru this? Any suggestions? What should I do? Anything?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

You need to go back to neutral intro's, I think its too soon for not-so neutral yet. You need to let them work it out, don't separate them when you think its bad...Jasmine is likely a subordinate rat in nature and she will never "tell her off". Tulip is making sure the newbie knows where she stands. Is there any blood? Just squeaking, pinning with a nip to the back, tail twitching (nervousness on Jasmine's part)?

Not too bad really. 

Here's a video of Kamea's intro to the Mini-Horde...just to give you an idea...I also always use food to distract the rats during the intro. The who aim of intro's is for them to be together without serious aggression for as long as possible. It takes them from "stranger...must attack or defend" status to "you again?"

(dunny brush means her fur was all puffed up)
THIS is a dunny brush :lol:


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*



lilspaz68 said:


> You need to go back to neutral intro's, I think its too soon for not-so neutral yet.


I should have clarified; the bed WAS neutral territory; neither of them had been on that bed before.


> You need to let them work it out, don't separate them when you think its bad...Jasmine is likely a subordinate rat in nature and she will never "tell her off". Tulip is making sure the newbie knows where she stands. Is there any blood?


No... No blood. Just looks sad and freaks me out. But it's much quicker and rougher than what they were doing to Kamea in that video.


> Just squeaking, pinning with a nip to the back, tail twitching (nervousness on Jasmine's part)?


Yup. Just that. And yeah, Jasmine looks like a dunny brush! Ha ha ha, good term! :lol:



> Here's a video of Kamea's intro to the Mini-Horde...just to give you an idea...I also always use food to distract the rats during the intro. The who aim of intro's is for them to be together without serious aggression for as long as possible. It takes them from "stranger...must attack or defend" status to "you again?"


 so ... if I'm getting this straight, if I leave Tulip and Jasmine together for long enough, they should start to behave better? I mean, that would be the ultimate solution?

What if it just gets worse? At what point do I break it up?

Next time I do this I will video it and post it here and maybe more experienced eyes can reassure me!

Thanks for the help, soo much!


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Darn these little guys sure can worm their way into your heart!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

Watch for serious aggression, sidling, poufing, hunting of the the other rat...food is a great distraction, they often will sit and eat side by side. Any biting is a no-no...I do intro's with open ended things so no one ever feels trapped and defensive. You should probably try all 3 with Tulip. Just be ready to split something up, a dust pan or a book often works.

The only other intro video's I have are even less eventful, my first intro of 2 existing colonies, 1 of 5, 1 of 6 :roll: In my commentary you can hear me talking about rats approachign each other and watchign for certain behaviours that they ended up not exhibiting LOLOL


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: Rat "aggression" body language?*

OK, well, we tried again tonight, and I tried my best to let them be and stop breaking it up ... poor Jasmine still hasn't recovered ... I feel totally powerless with not being able to read ratty body language like I can dogs, cats and birds and I just don't know what to do! *shudder* Please tell me if I should stop and I'm just tormenting them because it will never work ... 

Anyway, here we go, in chronological order ... any help or commentary as to where I should go from here would be great ...
(Oh and ignore my annoying voice, I have a cold)



OK so in between these I checked for injuries, and no one's bleeding. We all had some yogies and collected ourselves, and then tried again.









Oh, and what were you suggesting with the dust pan or book? To make a loud noise? I had this sudden morbid image of you squashing them with it ... what can I say I'm really tired. LOL

And a totally unrelated question ... see how dark Jasmine's tail is? What is that?


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

No one can just tell me if this is normal or not, or "over the line"?

Has anyone seen this before? What did you do?


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

ok... assessment

you are projecting a negative energy of anxiety & excitement. Animals pick up on this & react. Every single time the two rats come into close contact with one another you tense up, you force that uncontrolled emotion of fear & anticipation... the animals will see that image you project. You imagine the attack, you project that energy & basically that is what stimulates a response. 


next... the videos... the white one (Jasmine?) is being the one naughty. She has claimed that tissue box as her own & she has been defending it. Get rid of the tissue box!

Tulip has attempted to be friendly & engaging. She peed on her at least twice.. that means "hey, you're in my club!" 

In video 2 Jasmine clearly shows an aggressive stance/posture... notice the hunch-up & tail moving toward Tulip.... the slight shift in the hips toward Tulip.... that is the posture before a malicious attack occurs. Every time you see that move that will be the last warning before attack. I saw it in a couple videos but in each one you have viewed the black & white rat as the instigator... called her crazy & such... then went onto to baby talk poor Jasmine. Oops, Jasmine is tense & Jasmine is attacking.

The black & white rat has shown nothing other than curiosity & some scent marking which is acceptance of your presence.... not, turn you back so I can go for your neck.

Notice how the attacking rat then rolls over & the black & white rat then tops her? The white rat is insecure & unsure of herself so she assumes a submissive posture even though she attacked... the other is like... hey, WTF is your deal... I'm just walking here!


video 4, you moved the tissue box so that it was closer to you but it was also closer to the white rat & essentially it was placed so that is was slightly behind her.... she then saw the black & white one moving toward her & her precious box & she defended it. She is insecure so the box offers a measure of security. Remove the box.

TIP: remove all objects from a "neutral territory" when doing intros

I also notice the rats on your bed. I'm sure this is somewhere they have been allowed to roam prior to a first meeting... that nullifies this as being a neutral location. Find a NEUTRAL location to introduce them.


Jasmine shows sign of extremely poor vision & thusly she feels extremely vulnerable. She will defend herself in ways that rats with confidence don't.

When lacking confidence & security the way to overcome fear is to be the aggressor.... over compensation for inadequacies. (kind of like ugly men driving big trucks or sports cars)



(just call me the Rat Whisperer)


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## mayatweak (Sep 4, 2008)

Oh my God, thank you!! This was exactly what I needed! I wish I had seen this before the forum went down ... it would have been sooo helpful!! And it would have saved me soo much stress!! lol



A1APassion said:


> ok... assessment
> 
> you are projecting a negative energy of anxiety & excitement. Animals pick up on this & react. Every single time the two rats come into close contact with one another you tense up, you force that uncontrolled emotion of fear & anticipation... the animals will see that image you project. You imagine the attack, you project that energy & basically that is what stimulates a response.


Yeah, totally. I know that now. I guess it was far more traumatic for me than it was for them ... :




> next... the videos... the white one (Jasmine?) is being the one naughty. She has claimed that tissue box as her own & she has been defending it. Get rid of the tissue box!


 Will do, next time! I thought they might feel more secure with somewhere to hide. Oops!



> Tulip has attempted to be friendly & engaging. She peed on her at least twice.. that means "hey, you're in my club!"


 How on earth do you know she was peeing on her?? Ok, this one has me stumped.



> In video 2 Jasmine clearly shows an aggressive stance/posture... notice the hunch-up & tail moving toward Tulip.... the slight shift in the hips toward Tulip.... that is the posture before a malicious attack occurs. Every time you see that move that will be the last warning before attack. I saw it in a couple videos but in each one you have viewed the black & white rat as the instigator... called her crazy & such... then went onto to baby talk poor Jasmine. Oops, Jasmine is tense & Jasmine is attacking.


 OK, I can see it so clearly now ... how embarassing ... it's so clear in hindsight, I just watched the vids again and I can totally see that. But, Tulip for a while (before these vids were taken) would follow Jasmine around a lot, too. Just out of curiosity, what does that mean?



> The black & white rat has shown nothing other than curiosity & some scent marking which is acceptance of your presence.... not, turn you back so I can go for your neck.
> 
> Notice how the attacking rat then rolls over & the black & white rat then tops her? The white rat is insecure & unsure of herself so she assumes a submissive posture even though she attacked... the other is like... hey, WTF is your deal... I'm just walking here!


Yeah, and you know what's funny? I have all 4 together now, and Jasmine seems to still have the most altercations with the others. It always seems to be Jasmine and someone (although it rarely happens anymore). Jasmine was also the only one I got as a single rat - the others all had/have a sibling. Is it possible that she just has extremely poor social skills because she's been kept away from other rats all her life?



> video 4, you moved the tissue box so that it was closer to you but it was also closer to the white rat & essentially it was placed so that is was slightly behind her.... she then saw the black & white one moving toward her & her precious box & she defended it. She is insecure so the box offers a measure of security. Remove the box.


 Oh my god that is so obvious now. It's plain as day when I watch those videos. See, this is why I need this forum! I do not speak rat very well yet! ;D



> TIP: remove all objects from a "neutral territory" when doing intros


 Yup, will do from now on. I did not know this part.



> I also notice the rats on your bed. I'm sure this is somewhere they have been allowed to roam prior to a first meeting... that nullifies this as being a neutral location. Find a NEUTRAL location to introduce them.


 No, that location was neutral. I haven't had them all that long, and the only place any of them had been prior to that was the couch. The bed you saw them on was in a completely different room.




> Jasmine shows sign of extremely poor vision & thusly she feels extremely vulnerable. She will defend herself in ways that rats with confidence don't.


 Really? You could see that in the video?? Because my mom and I have been speculating that Jasmine might be blind - she seems to navigate by touch and sound only ... we were wondering. What did you see?



> When lacking confidence & security the way to overcome fear is to be the aggressor.... over compensation for inadequacies. (kind of like ugly men driving big trucks or sports cars)


 Hmm. Or "courage on a leash" as I like to call it. 





> (just call me the Rat Whisperer)


 I bow down to you, Oh Speaker of The Rat Tongue!! Let me bask in thy splendid Glory as I learn thy trade as Master of Ratese !! ;D


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