# Pet Shop Rats



## Crisper (Oct 24, 2011)

Iv'e had 7 rats so far my first 2 from a breeder and 5 from a pet store. I feal bad for pet store rats they get a bad rap.
I know you have a better chance of getting a friendly well behaved rat from a breeder but pet store rats can turn out to be really good companions. The first one I had falls into the sterotype, there was no way of becoming close to this rat, she just didn't want humans to be near her, unfortunatly that rat mills ruiend her.
This actually kept me from buying new rats for a bit because I couldn't find a rat breeder again and I didn't trust buying one from the store.
I gave in and decided to buy two more at the store again, I couldn't of got 2 better little ones from a breeder. I suggest if anyones does go to a pet store ask if any of the rats where born in the store, my girls where. I guess the fact that they wern't in a mill, and even around less rats then at a breeder made them turn out good. They where even use to being around people when we got them from being at the pet store. They got so much personality and just love being around people so.
I got 2 new little ones from a pet store too last week, and even those these ones came from a mill i'm still very satisfied. Thier friendly and thier personalitys are comming along fine

What are some of your experiences with pet shot rats, I am interested in hearing your feedback.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

no one is saying pet store rats or feeders can't be good pets. some of them will be the best rats you've ever had. that's not the point...

it's because mill rats are bred for profit. in buying feeders, mill rats, or rats from poor breeders, you are creating a demand for these thoughtlessly bred rats... so they will churn out more and more to meet this demand. even buying them as pets opens a whole new market to them, where they can do all sorts of nasty things such as sell the "cuter" rats with more "rare" markings as "fancy rats", and throw the black hoodeds and pews that no one wants in the feeder bin for half the price.

you are supporting a cruel and unfair business, and condemning more rats to this terrible fate in your wake. you may be rescuing one or two, but you are enabling 5 more to be bred in a filthy, overcrowded plastic tub on a rack in a cold warehouse somewhere, and more likely than not, to end up in the belly of a snake.

proper breeders will breed rats to better the species, meaning healthier, friendlier pets overall. they are knowledgeable about husbandry and genetics, and make educated pairings to improve on desirable traits such as temperament, color, body conformation, and so on. they are not in it for profit. no breeder makes profit in breeding, and most rely on personal funds. not even donations can cover the cost of breeding rats. 

it's really as simple as that... this topic has been discussed so many times it's like beating a dead horse with a stick.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

Ok I would just like to say... Buying feeder rats as pets does not do anything to the business of feeder rats. 90% of the sales of feeder rats are for just that feeders...people buy these rats, mice, crickets, cockroaches, meal worms, ect. to feed their animals that eat them. If no one bought a feeder rat as a pet it wouldn't cost them too much business. The pet trade however is supported by people who buy their animals as pets. So even though refusing to buy feeders will not diminish the supply of feeders, refusing to buy rats, puppies, turtles, mice. cats, and anything else that could be produced in a mill type situation would diminish the demand and therefor over time diminish the supply of these animals. Don't kid yourself into thinking that reptile shops will miss you 'rescuing' their feeders. Though like I said in another post if you feel the need to save that one feeder rat go ahead you wil be making a difference to that one feeder rat. Even if you do not choose to rescue it it WILL be sold and others WILL take it's place. Sorry if this offends people it is the truth. Don't believe me? take a trip down to a reptile store they will either refuse to sell you a feeder rat as a pet due to the liability of it not being hand friendly or they will flat out say (like the sales person that sold me Kyran and Ayden) " It is not my business what happens to the rat whether it be fed to a snake or kept as a pet a sale is a sale."

On a side note if you really want to make a difference do your research if you know a certain pet shop is supplied by mills of any kind choose to shop somewhere else. This is what happened to Pet City in Colorado people got smart to the ways they treat their animals and most of the shops eventually closed down. I know of only one Pet City still open down here and they treat their animals horrible. This is just an example. If you refuse to buy animals produced in mill situations eventually the demand will cut off and the supply will no longer heed enough profit to keep the mills alive. Also I meant no disrespect just shining a light on the truth.


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## Abracasqueak (Oct 20, 2011)

I feel the same way as chesire to be honest. I've worked in various pet stores; I can guarantee 100% that my shop owners or fellow sales reps weren't keeping tabs on which rat went to a feeder's home and which went to an enthusiast's. I most certainly am not saying that rats wouldn't be worth the effort of not supporting pet shops, however, it is a bit different with say puppies for example. You buy a puppy, you support the supply and demand. A ball python owner isn't going to walk into the pet store and purchase the 1,000$ puppy you didn't buy. Unfortunately, with rodents (namely rats and mice), if you do not buy the one or two - someone else will, and more than likely, with a hungry belly waiting at home. If you buy a rat from a pet store (especially) from the the feeder bin, and even the scarce "sold for pet only" area, you're only obtaining a rat just as you would anywhere else. The only thing you are enabling is a chance for that one rat (or more) to have a shot at a phenomenal life rather than an abrupt one.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Actually no. Everytime you buy a rat (for whatever purpose) you are dooming some poor mom to have another litter since you have told the petstore there IS a demand and they must supply. Its a terrible thing to look at the Big Picture, and the reason I do not go into petstores that sell animals anymore, beyond the fact that some nasty rat viruses could come home with me and make my entire colony sick and possibly die.

I am very surprised that you found a breeder in your area. Newfoundland? Its full of BYB's and there's no ethical responsible breeders on the East Coast at all. My rescue babies are feeder stock, and the nicest little things because I socialized them from a young age. They are what I call Second Hand Petstore Rats...I didn't line anyone's pockets and create more demand, I take in the leftovers that people abandon. This IS truly saving a life. The only problem with these babies is there is no guarantee on health, but I try to give them the best start I can in life to give them good lives in their future homes. 

In Canada there is very much the mind-set that Breeder = Good, when its the farthest thing from the truth. I am working on educating the Canadian folk on what to expect from a real breeder, not a breeder who could be creating genetic timebombs with their careless ways.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

ok... like I said 'REPTILE STORES' that breed rats for feeders do not care about people who buy their feeders for pets. let me put it this way scales 'n tails in colorado they are a reptile store were you can find almost anything outside poisonous snakes. I got my corn snake from this store and have had her for going on 2 years this valentines day. I have fed her live mice that whole time so I kind of have experience in this. ( no I do not need to know how horrible it is to feed her life I have done my research and I know how to care for my snake. Anyway what I am trying to show is the fact that every 2 weeks my snake gets two mice (because the mice are scrawny) ok these mice are about 2 bucks a pop. Every two weeks for aroun 1 year and 8 months I have went down to the store and paid 4 bucks plus tax for snake food. ON THE OTHER HAND one rat pup is 2.99 adult rats I believe are 3.99. If someone is feeding their snake every two weeks and it is big enough for large rats that reptile store is recieving 8 dollars from one person every two weeks. NOW one person decides that the feeder rat placed into their hand should not be on the menu well that person just paid the store 3-4 dollars ONCE. No one is going back every other week, they arn't buying supply's, they are most likely if everything goes ok not going to come back and buy anything else for two years. Take that one person away (meaning no one buys feeders any more) there are stil 90% people buying these feeders for their snakes (or other critters). Also I was not saying ALL pet shops are horrible I was saying do your research if you find that store has a shadey background you might not want to buy a new rat from them. ALSO telling people that if they buy a rat from a feeding situation is causing another mother to go through **** is an unneeded guilt trip. For all the rats you see in those feeder bins there are THAT many more at the breeders house getting ready to be shipped. Like I said IF one of those feeder rats catches your eyes by all means pay that 3-4 dollars you made a difference to that one rat. It is a personal choice if you believe by you not buying feeders as pets you are eventually going to stop the selling of feeders... good luck. Though you should not be telling people DO NOT BUY FEEDERS or whatever. Also yes if you have someone who has a feeder and there is that connection rescue it but all I am saying is if you see your next furry love and ihe/she just happens to be in a feeder bin not buying it would just be an injustice to the connection either way the feeders are going to make money.

Also not all feeders are health issues waiting to happen. Eddie was a rescue feeder he lived to be 3. Kyran and Ayden are feeders and they are growing like weeds with a clean bill of health. Again it just comes down to using common sense.


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## HoneyRose (Sep 7, 2011)

I was unfamiliar to all of this until reading this thread, it is very interesting to read. I did know that feeder rats aren't treated well although I did come across an exception at my local reptile store which is where 2 of my rats came from...they actually encouraged people to consider them as pets...but hey.
I also know that Petco allows their rats to be sold as feeders, I remember a long time ago I adopted my first rat from there and the staff member actually handed me the rat saying 'your one of the lucky ones' 
Anyway as far as temperaments, my first 3 rats were males from pet stores and all 3 of them were not friendly no matter how much I tried to socialize. They didn't really bite much, but were just scared to death! Everytime I handled them they squealed.
The rats I have now are all female, 2 were feeders and 2 were from a breeder and they are all friendly, but each have their own quirks and personality. They like to be out and loved unlike my boys.
Thats my experience...I think it certainly depends on where you adopt your new rat and also on the age of the rat...but with any case there will be exceptions.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

The petsmart and petco down here will refuse to sell you animals if you inform them that you have a no no animal t home ie Cichlids they will refuse to sell you other fish if you have any type of cichlids 9 including those that are not agressive) Snakes if you enter the stores down here and mention you have a snake it does not matter what kind or how big you will not be able to buy a mouse or rat or really any kind of rodent. Ayden and Kyran are very socialized everytime I pass the cage they are begging for attention.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

The statement about breeders pumping out as many rats as a pet store is not true. ETHICAL breeders, the ones that are worth adopting from have less then 2-3 litters a year and the mother almost never has more then 2 litters in her life span.

I know there are images floating around of what Small animal mills look like. NOT a fun place to be for a mama rat, feeder breeder moms are bred back to back for their entire lives and then they die.


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the question of this post what was your experience with having pet-store rats as pets, not whether or not you like buying from shops. When Crisp said they get a bad rap, I'm sure she/he meant that people see pet-store rats as not being worth the trouble, that they will all be sickly and/or temperamental and yes people HAVE said that about them. It's generally the personality or health issues is the first argument, then when someone says something different the subject is changed to why buying from pet-stores condemns twice as many more rats to die. 
To get back on the subject of what this post was *REALLY* about, my experience with having pet-store rats has been good. Both of my boys have been health and friendly.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

All my rats are rescues, therefor they are basically pet store rats. I just did not give money to the pet store.

Most health issues did not crop up until 18 months and sadly almost all my rats have died before the age of 2 from something horrible. Is it worth it? Yes I think it is, because despite the imminent vet care I still got the time with each rat.
I had my first 2 rats from a pet store, long time ago. They both died tragically before there time, Peaches my old girl died at 18 months from a rapidly growing tumor on her throat, Muffin died suddenly from unknown causes before he was 18 months as well.
So I guess that means to me my experiences have been NOT good, I would not do it again when I could help a rat with money going to a good cause.

And idk where you guys are hearing people say Pet store rats are not worth the time and love lol, I have NEVER heard that. I have only heard people say they would prefer not to give money to pet stores to condemn more rats.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

This might be slightly off-topic, but do you think pet shops in the UK are as bad as in America? (I mean I don't know that they're bad since I've never been; I'm not slating you!)
Our biggest one is pets at home and as far as I can tell they seem to source their animals responsibly.
_"When you buy a pet from us, you can be sure it was bred in comfortable and caring surroundings. We only source pets from suppliers who fulfil the 5 basic freedoms laid down in the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we regularly inspect our suppliers to make sure they meet our high standards and that they have the right attitude towards animals."
_They also do check-ups for about the first month or so. I'd get a call every week to see how they were doing and if I had any questions.
As for the health and temperament of the rats themselves I've got 2 girls who are well over 3 years old and the only illness they've had is a URI. Plus, we don't sell live feeders so I just wonder whether there's more rules and stuff concerning the animal's welfare?
What do you reckon?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

see, and i've heard horror stories about [email protected] rats. it all depends on the individual store, really.


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## HollyWells (Oct 21, 2011)

I have three rats, two from a pet store and one from a breeder, and there is definitely a noticeable difference in their behaviour. Our breeder rat is a powder blue (**** expensive, haha!) and obviously very well cared for before I took him home, and it showed in how sweet and willing he was to come out for cuddles the instant I took him out of the carrier. Of course, I love him no more than my two pet shop rats (infact, over time, one of my pet shop boys, haha, has become the most cuddly) but I know from here on if I actively go out to seek a new rat, I would go to the same breeder.

On the flip side, the way I see it, you shouldn't set yourself such restrictions. If I go into the pet store tomorrow and come across a rat in the feeder bin, I would take him home with me that very second. At the end of the day, my main concern is the well fare of the animals themselves, and if I come across a rat in need (be it breeder, feeder, pet shop, or rescue) I will help him all I can regardless of whether or not it supporting commercial breeding.


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## HollyWells (Oct 21, 2011)

Oh, to answer the question a few posts up, I would definitely say that UK pet stores are better than US. Mostly because we're so much smaller, and it's difficult to get past the regulations we have here for basic animal rights in your every day pet store.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

I have also heard horror stories about [email protected] mostly customer service related though. I visited 4 stores in search of my babies and all the staff seemed very friendly and helpful. One woman didn't seem to know the difference between boys and girls, but all the other staff were also very knowledgeable. As far as the rats are concerned like I say I've never had a problem, and my girls seems to be very loving. I'm hopefully getting some girls from a breeder around Christmas time though so I'll see how they compare.
I suppose you can get good and bad stores same as you can get good and bad breeders.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

The reason we "set restrictions on ourselves" is because we care about the animals. Each time you buy a pet from a pet store, you increase the demand, give them money to continue their horrible business, and ensure that more rats are bred into these horrible conditions. Giving them money hurts rats, as it condemns even more rats to a life of suffering.

Not giving them money helps rats, as with lower demand less rats are bred.

There is no good store that actually sells rats. Some stores have adoptions, and that is great, but no matter what when you buy from a pet store you are supporting either mills or backyard breeders, as no ethical breeder would ever give their rats to a store to be sold.

Rescues and ethical breeders are the only options I will ever consider, because I care about rats.

As to this being "off topic", it really isn't, someone mentioned something that was wrong (that we say don't get rats from pet stores because it isn't worth it) and so it was corrected. That is how it goes on a public forum. And to be honest, the only time I ever hear talking about how people say pet store rats aren't worth it, make bad pets, etc is when this argument comes up, and I only ever hear people say it is said (and I've been a member of the online rat communities for quite a while).

About being able to walk away from pet store rats, I always found it interesting that people don't consider that they are constantly walking away from rescue rats ???


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

Those of you saying you will never make a dent in the feeder business--you do know that feeder rats and fancy/pet/OMGItsabluedumboanditssocute rats often all come from the same litter? The plain ones go to a feeder tank or from the mill to a store like PetCo that sells feeders. The pretty ones go to be sold as pets. In many instances the sources of both rats are the same. Rainbow Mills for instance supplies many petstores in my area. Boring rats go to Petco and Petland or other feeder based stores. The more popular varieties go to Petsmart. If people were to stop buying them from Petsmart as pets for instance, that would be several fewer litters that need to be bred to supply the pet part of the demand. Eventually as more herp owners educate themselves on the benefits of feeding pre-killed (and I own quite a few snakes myself so don't think I'm anti-herp owner. I am against live feeding if it's not necessary for the sake of the snake and the prey animal), the demand for live feeders should go down. Rats will still be milled so they can be euthanized and frozen as feeders, but that is a necessary evil. If you buy one less pet rat is DOES make an impact. You saved that one rat but you've created a void that another female will be bred to fill and that multiple babies will be shipped to fill (remember a percentage of them die in transport). Cut out the pet market and there will be less mill rats bred period. Unless you live in an usually remote location, there is almost always the option to rescue or adopt from a good breeder.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

cheshire said:


> I have fed her live mice that whole time so I kind of have experience in this. ( no I do not need to know how horrible it is to feed her life I have done my research and I know how to care for my snake. Anyway what I am trying to show is the fact that every 2 weeks my snake gets two mice (because the mice are scrawny)


Take this however you want, you just admitted you are intentionally feeding underweight and likely paratisitized feeders (look up T&S's on the BOI) and you say you know how to care for your snake? Cornsnakes take to prekilled very, very easily. There is zero reason not to order a healthy prekilled feeder of good body condition. If you insist on feeding live for whatever reason, why are you not finding a better source of feeders? Your snake depends on YOU to provide her a good diet and 'scrawny' mice do not constitute a good diet.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

HollyWells said:


> Oh, to answer the question a few posts up, I would definitely say that UK pet stores are better than US. Mostly because we're so much smaller, and it's difficult to get past the regulations we have here for basic animal rights in your every day pet store.


And I'm thinking this, because none of theirs go to live feeders either right? So maybe they don't breed as many? 
I dunno, it'd be interesting to find out.

I'm not saying 'we're alright cos we're in England'. Obviously it's always better to get a rescue rat, I'd just like to know really.
Also, I'm from Kent!!


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Actually there are rodent mills in the UK too, and Pets at Home is notorious for using them. They may not (in theory) go as feeders, but they are milled in poor conditions just the same. 

I think everyone should look at this:

http://www.brecklagh.com/petshops.html


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## Crisper (Oct 24, 2011)

I wrote this post to find out what kind of experince people have had with mill rats but I still found the responses very interesting. I can understand why people don't want to support rat mills but I really don't think boycotting mill rats will make a differnce, there will always be a demand for them and they will always keep shipping them out. Because of the oppinion of mills it's the rats who suffer and miss out on loving homes with experienced rat owners. This may be an extreme example but if you were able to buy a child off the black market and save him/her from a horrible fate would you say no because you don't want to support the industry? I feal the mill rats need my help more, breeder rats have a good life, it's the mill rats delt the shitty hand. I care about the individual rat, even if it does support a industry I dont like. It's not the little guys fault, they deserve a chance too. Mills might be bad but im sure the rats would rather be alive then not be born, I'd rather live a horrible life then none at all. Also does RESCUE rat meen from the SPCA or an owner gave it away? If so I would guess the majority of these are mill rats, so people who only buy breeder and rescue are still supporting the rat mills. Unless the fact that you paid no money for it makes it justifiable, seems kind of hypocritical to me. Just my oppinion I don't exspect many people to agree with me, and no offence intended.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

Crisper said:


> I wrote this post to find out what kind of experince people have had with mill rats but I still found the responses very interesting. I can understand why people don't want to support rat mills but I really don't think boycotting mill rats will make a differnce, there will always be a demand for them and they will always keep shipping them out. Because of the oppinion of mills it's the rats who suffer and miss out on loving homes with experienced rat owners. This may be an extreme example but if you were able to buy a child off the black market and save him/her from a horrible fate would you say no because you don't want to support the industry? I feal the mill rats need my help more, breeder rats have a good life, it's the mill rats delt the shitty hand. I care about the individual rat, even if it does support a industry I dont like. It's not the little guys fault, they deserve a chance too. Mills might be bad but im sure the rats would rather be alive then not be born, I'd rather live a horrible life then none at all. Also does RESCUE rat meen from the SPCA or an owner gave it away? If so I would guess the majority of these are mill rats, so people who only buy breeder and rescue are still supporting the rat mills. Unless the fact that you paid no money for it makes it justifiable, seems kind of hypocritical to me. Just my oppinion I don't exspect many people to agree with me, and no offence intended.


I run a rat rescue, and yes the majority of our rats came from mill / petstores but adopting those rats are totally different than buying them from a petstore.

Let's say I want to buy a pair of rats, I have a few options with a few outcomes.

-I choose to go to an ETHICAL breeder and buy two rats.
impact on those two rats: they get a good home
impact on the pet population: a breeder breeding to improve the species is being supported
impact on rescue/shelters/unwanted pets: zero. Ethical breeders will always take their rats back if you no longer want them.
financial impact: negligable. most ethical breeders charge a fee to make sure the rats are going to respsonsible home and not as feeders

-If I buy a rat from a petstore
impact on those two rats: they get a good home
impact on the pet population: rats continue to be bred with zero regard to health or temperament. No reduction in hereditary issues is seen. The store must then fill those two pieces of inventory I just brought. Another female is bred too early or too often in deplorable conditions. If we say 10-20% loss during shipping is standard they have to ship 3 babies to fill those two spots. 4 rats have now suffered because of your decision
impact to rescues/shelters/unwanted pets: because these rats are not bred for health or temperament owners often choose to dump them when they get sick or become aggressive. So a rescue now has to take those two rats which means another two can't be saved.
financial impact: the store and mill have received direct financial compensation which tells them there is a market for this product so they need to continue selling it


-If I adopt two rats from a rescue:
impact to the two rats: they get a good home
impact to the pet population: no improvement in overall health of the species obviously but two rats with no home are now in a home
impact to rescues/shelters/unwanted pets: Two rats placed, that means two more can be saved
financial impact: negligable. Most rescues only charge a fee to make sure they aren't going as feeders. NO ONE is being financially rewarded for mill breeding.

If I buy two rats from a byb or an unethical feeder breeder:
impact to the two rats: they get a good home or they are fed depending on why I got them
impact to the pet population: no improvement in overall health of the species in the case of a pet. Rats continue to be bred too early/too often without adequate space and a crappy diet because there is no reason for them to change.
impact to rescues/shelters/unwanted pets: Pet rats may be dumped for the same reason as adopting from a petstore.
financial impact: either a byb or feeder breeder is being finacially rewarded and like the petstore they need to breed more to replace what you brought.
Impact to the predator animal: the prey animal may have parasites, be underweight or fed on a dog food that contains ethoxyquin. none of that is good for your herp.

If I buy rats from an ETHICAL feeder breeder.
impact to two rats: They are either kept as pets or fed depending on my purpose
impact to pet population: Some care is taken to breed healthier and friendlier animals in the case of a pet. If it's a feeder, then no impact
impact on resces/shelters/unwanted pets: none if it is a feeder. Ethical feeder-breeders make an attempt to breed healthier rats within the confines of their programs. rats are less likely to be dumped for health issues
financial impact: breeder knows there are people willing to pay for his/her more ethical practices and is encouraged to continue. Other herp owners now have a source of food raised humanely
impact to predator: prey is much, much healthier and this will carry over to the predator.

For your comment about boycotting doing nothing; that's a horrible attitude. Nothing would ever get done in this world if people thought that way. Women would not be allowed to vote, basic civil liberties would not exist and there would still be slave-owning states. 20 yrs ago you could walk into any petstore and see dogs and cats for sale. It took a while, but now seeing live dogs and cats in stores in the US is no longer the norm all because people made an effort to change things instead of being defeatist.


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## AlexP (Oct 26, 2011)

+1

I wish there was a like button Wheeljack, because I would totally 'like' your post. It says everything perfectly. I especially liked the last paragraph, because I was sitting here trying to come up with the words for my refutation of that argument and couldn't, but you said it just perfectly.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

It always makes me sad when people say things like "Well it won't make any difference anyway" If that was the attitude to so many things nothing would ever get done.

When a group of people do something to make a difference that group of people is made up of many individuals who are trying to make a change, and it may be a small group but if they actually make the effort things WILL get done, maybe not tomorrow or a year from now but eventually. That's how change is made. Not by saying "Well i don't think things will ever change so I won't even try"

I won;t make anyone stop buying from stores, I wont yell and call them names I won't make it personal because people have a right to make their OWN decisions but I will continue to shed light on what I know, and help others learn more about the situation.I will NOT do it myself, and I think eventually with education on the topic and people making the effort some kind of change will happen.

I guess it sounds a little cheesy, but it's true.


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## Crisper (Oct 24, 2011)

Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and wern't bought, the quicker you take them meens theres more room in the rescue. They will take the next set of older ones there trying to sell and put them in the rescue, wich leaves more room so they can buy more babys wich they can sell. Thus you have supported the mill. As for the issue of my ideas being bias, isn't that what you are doing with these pet shop rats by not wanting to own them simply because of where there from. I know they say the need of the many out wieghs the need of the few, but if those few need my help I will. Also just because people boycott pet stores for cats and dogs it hasent really made a differnce, theres more strays then there was 20 years ago and it keeps growing. You been to a SPCA latly or even walk down a street, theres lots of miserable animals. The cats and dogs that are bought for money people tend to hold onto, theres way to many free cats and dogs ads from careless owners and breeders. People take these animals and guess what they don't care about getting rid of them because there was no price tag on them. Actually if pets stores gained total controll of selling cats and dogs they could make it manditory that they be sold spaid and nuetard , there could be laws imposed so that mills were run corectly, and the stray population would drop.
Plus like I said before it may be a shitty life but at least they got the chance to live for a little bit, thats better then not being born at all.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Crisper said:


> Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and wern't bought, the quicker you take them meens theres more room in the rescue. They will take the next set of older ones there trying to sell and put them in the rescue, wich leaves more room so they can buy more babys wich they can sell. Thus you have supported the mill. As for the issue of my ideas being bias, isn't that what you are doing with these pet shop rats by not wanting to own them simply because of where there from. I know they say the need of the many out wieghs the need of the few, but if those few need my help I will. Also just because people boycott pet stores for cats and dogs it hasent really made a differnce, theres more strays then there was 20 years ago and it keeps growing. You been to a SPCA latly or even walk down a street, theres lots of miserable animals. The cats and dogs that are bought for money people tend to hold onto, theres way to many free cats and dogs ads from careless owners and breeders. People take these animals and guess what they don't care about getting rid of them because there was no price tag on them. Actually if pets stores gained total controll of selling cats and dogs they could make it manditory that they be sold spaid and nuetard , there could be laws imposed so that mills were run corectly, and the stray population would drop.
> Plus like I said before it may be a shitty life but at least they got the chance to live for a little bit, thats better then not being born at all.


What? Do you think rescues buy rats from a pet store?! They take in surrenders from owners! They pay no money to the mills, so they do not support mill breeding.

Actually, it has made a difference. Far less cats and dogs are milled, and if there truly are more homeless cats and dogs now (do you have a source for that?), I would suspect it is due to the pressure of people to not euthanize, more no-kill shelters equals more pets..

Actually, not really. A lot of purebred animals from crappy sources get dumped. Why do you think you find horses up for adoption for free when they cost thousands of dollars. And even if what you were saying was the case, you must have never adopted from a rescue because there is an adoption fee...

Also, people are working on this, by donating or working for low cost spay/neuter clinics, educating, etc.

If mills had to run correctly due to actual enforceable legislation (there's legislation to protect the dogs and cats, though not the rodents, but it is totally unenforcable for the most part, so a quick bill is unlikely to make large changes) they would go broke, and go out of business anyway. If you talk to a real ethical breeder, you will see there is no money to be made in breeding animals if you do it right. The vet bills, health testing, and time make doing it right more of a hobby than a business.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

Crisper said:


> Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and wern't bought, the quicker you take them meens theres more room in the rescue. They will take the next set of older ones there trying to sell lful put them in the rescue, wich leaves more room so they can buy more babys wich they can sell. Thus you have supported the mill.


Wow, I have never seen such willful misunderstanding of a situation before. Most rescues take owner surrenders. They do not take unsellable stock for the very reason you have mentioned. Perhaps educating yourself on how reputable rescues work would be helpful; I believe there is a 'red-flag' list for rescues stickied on this forum somewhere.


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## strangeduck (Jun 1, 2008)

> Crisper
> Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and wern't bought, the quicker you take them meens theres more room in the rescue. They will take the next set of older ones there trying to sell and put them in the rescue, wich leaves more room so they can buy more babys wich they can sell. Thus you have supported the mill. As for the issue of my ideas being bias, isn't that what you are doing with these pet shop rats by not wanting to own them simply because of where there from. I know they say the need of the many out wieghs the need of the few, but if those few need my help I will. Also just because people boycott pet stores for cats and dogs it hasent really made a differnce, theres more strays then there was 20 years ago and it keeps growing. You been to a SPCA latly or even walk down a street, theres lots of miserable animals. The cats and dogs that are bought for money people tend to hold onto, theres way to many free cats and dogs ads from careless owners and breeders. People take these animals and guess what they don't care about getting rid of them because there was no price tag on them. Actually if pets stores gained total controll of selling cats and dogs they could make it manditory that they be sold spaid and nuetard , there could be laws imposed so that mills were run corectly, and the stray population would drop.
> Plus like I said before it may be a shitty life but at least they got the chance to live for a little bit, thats better then not being born at all.​




No, actually a shitty life is not better than never having been born at all. How is a life of suffering better than no life at all? These animals don't *want* to be born, and they sure as **** don't want to suffer needlessly, just because someone like you can't see the bigger picture. 

This isn't about not wanting to help the rats, we all want to help the rats, but I'd rather not to have anything to do with a system that causes the suffering of literally millions of innocent animals. There is nothing that can be said to change your mind, because you are unable or unwilling to see beyond those three or four cute rats in a pet store enclosure, to the warehouses filled with suffering animals who will never see the light of day because they die long before they have a chance to be the cute animal in the pet store that you can't just help but purchase. There are breeding moms who are bred over and over until their insides literally fall out. There are rittens who get trampled in the overcrowded plastic boxes that pass for breeding bins in rat mills. There are rats that get tossed around like the pieces of inexpensive inventory the mill owners consider them to be with no regard for their safety and well-being.

Even those of us who have snakes who eat rodents don't want to have anything to do with mill and back yard breeders, but instead spend a lot of time researching prey sources that ethically and humanely breed and then euthanize the prey our pets need to survive.

You, and people like you, are the reason that mills can still operate, and no one can make you see that it's wrong, that's clear. But it's a bad idea to come into a rat community that is heavily populated with people who have a history of working with or adopting rescues and try to justify your bad choices.​


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow do we really have to attack the OP with accusations? I do believe if PEOPLE LIKE YOU would take time to actually read the the actual post instead of clinging to one phrase it would read like this -->Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and weren't bought, the quicker you take them means there's more room in the rescue. Rescue at a pet store Yes there are pet stores that move their older rats to 'rescue cages' making the public believe that they are actually rescuing a rat when really they are just those who have not sold. It does not come across as the OP saying that you should never RESCUE rats from any rescues just those that are marked as rescues in certain pet stores. Yes we all agree pet mills are bad and unethical but you are certainly not helping the cause by outwardly ATTACKING a person for their opinions. If you would read the whole thread you would see at no point id I attack the poster for his/her post I merely put in ideas facts and said it is their choice. If you want to change a persons line of thought you do not attack them with "you are a horrible person and people like you is what is wrong with the world" You offer them facts, ideas, opinions and let them choose. You can not change a person if they don't want to change. If they take what you give them and decide to ignore it that does not make them a horrible person. If what you are saying is truth then hope that eventually they will discover that with or without help. It does not help to attack AT ALL. "The world is changed,more often than not, with peace not war." - Author unknown

Also laws and ways of life are different around the world. Even though all shelters here demand that the animal be spayed and nuetered BEFORE being adopted it could be different around the world. Not every situesions is the same. Maybe where Crisper is arom there may be a corrupt rescue which there are all over the place. We like to think that being a rescue means they are doing it to save the animals and sometimes this just is not true. There was a case of a pet store being closed down due to unethical treatment of the animals and a couple months atewards the owner opened a 'rescue' out of her house. this 'rescue' mimicked the set up of her pet store and she was running it JUST LIKE a mill. So you just have to be certain you know the background before pointing fingers. That is all Thank you.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Lets remember not to make this personal. It's a passionate subject I know, but I do not want to have to lock the thread as it has some very interesting standpoints. Both ones I agree with and ones i don't.

And also, Watch the language guys!!!! You all know better.

And also as a snake owner myself (gasp!) I have done the research in do the best food for my snake and go out of my way to obtain frozen food that has been humanely euthed and bred in clean healthy conditions. It's not that hard, and when a bad rodent is what KILLED my last snake, I make SURE I feed him the best I can get.
But this is not about snake food, this is about pet stores. So another quick reminder not to let this get heated!


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

Kiko said:


> Lets remember not to make this personal. It's a passionate subject I know, but I do not want to have to lock the thread as it has some very interesting standpoints. Both ones I agree with and ones i don't.
> 
> And also, Watch the language guys!!!! You all know better.
> 
> ...


I know this is not about snake food but the live or prekilled thing looks to be 50/50 (some people le dome people don't and both sides feel strongly about their choice) my snake is 5 years so changing her to frozen would be tough AND I am not keen on playing with a dead mouse in a cup of warm water. ANYWAY that's just me I would also like to say my other post has a lot of typos due to a glitchy keyboard and the time to edit ran out so ignore them please and thank you


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

cheshire said:


> ok... like I said 'REPTILE STORES' that breed rats for feeders do not care about people who buy their feeders for pets. let me put it this way scales 'n tails in colorado they are a reptile store were you can find almost anything outside poisonous snakes. I got my corn snake from this store and have had her for going on 2 years this valentines day. I have fed her live mice that whole time so I kind of have experience in this. ( no I do not need to know how horrible it is to feed her life I have done my research and I know how to care for my snake. Anyway what I am trying to show is the fact that every 2 weeks my snake gets two mice (because the mice are scrawny) ok these mice are about 2 bucks a pop. Every two weeks for aroun 1 year and 8 months I have went down to the store and paid 4 bucks plus tax for snake food. ON THE OTHER HAND one rat pup is 2.99 adult rats I believe are 3.99. If someone is feeding their snake every two weeks and it is big enough for large rats that reptile store is recieving 8 dollars from one person every two weeks. NOW one person decides that the feeder rat placed into their hand should not be on the menu well that person just paid the store 3-4 dollars ONCE. No one is going back every other week, they arn't buying supply's, they are most likely if everything goes ok not going to come back and buy anything else for two years. Take that one person away (meaning no one buys feeders any more) there are stil 90% people buying these feeders for their snakes (or other critters). Also I was not saying ALL pet shops are horrible I was saying do your research if you find that store has a shadey background you might not want to buy a new rat from them. ALSO telling people that if they buy a rat from a feeding situation is causing another mother to go through **** is an unneeded guilt trip. For all the rats you see in those feeder bins there are THAT many more at the breeders house getting ready to be shipped. Like I said IF one of those feeder rats catches your eyes by all means pay that 3-4 dollars you made a difference to that one rat. It is a personal choice if you believe by you not buying feeders as pets you are eventually going to stop the selling of feeders... good luck. Though you should not be telling people DO NOT BUY FEEDERS or whatever. Also yes if you have someone who has a feeder and there is that connection rescue it but all I am saying is if you see your next furry love and ihe/she just happens to be in a feeder bin not buying it would just be an injustice to the connection either way the feeders are going to make money.
> 
> Also not all feeders are health issues waiting to happen. Eddie was a rescue feeder he lived to be 3. Kyran and Ayden are feeders and they are growing like weeds with a clean bill of health. Again it just comes down to using common sense.



Guys, I second Kiko's reminder- please, try to not be agressive or accusatory. It is one thing to state and opinion and another to attack others. We will lock the thread if it gets out of hand.

Now, in reply to the post I quoted. I, too, am a snake owner. I also have 4 pet rats and 5 pet mice. I feed Curses frozen/thawed food- it is far safer for her, and not only that, it is not cruel to the animal being eaten. Watching her eat, I can only imagine how much pain prey goes through before dying- she is downright foul sometimes and whether she's fast about it or not it makes me sad to see the way she eats. Imagine your rat dying the way your snake eats- it's cruel. Inhumane. I've seen my snake demolish her dead prey, crush it, make it explode from the pressure she puts on it. She is only 10.5 inches long. A larger snake is easily capable of doing these things to a LIVING being- my little one could do it to something alive, too, if I offered it to her. My mice and rats are both great pets. Almost all are feeders, although 3 rats are indirect. (rescued, and adopted from humane society) All of my mice were plucked from various feeder bins. My most recent addition, a lovely male named Augustus, was taken from a feeder bin last week. Imagine my wonderful, loving little companion dying the way your snake eats.

Now, hold onto that image. Imagine your rats dying that way. Now, do you see why there's so much opposition to it? These animals are friends and family, they have feelings, they have lives, they can suffer. I know snakes have to eat- I have one! But those of us who care for the snakes are responsible for feeding our snakes in a way that minimizes suffering for BOTH parties. The snake is not in any danger from a dead mouse, the mouse died quickly and without fear.

I also want to point out that it is totally possible and probably quite easy to switch your snake to F/T food. I have done it with wild caught snakes before and it only took 2 feedings before she was at it like she'd never seen food before. That snake is long dead, unfortunatly (spinal ulcers), but my current snake eats it like a pig (tonight's feeding night, she'll be sitting there waiting. She knows what is happening). Yours can, too. A single bite, even from a mouse, which are lightening fast, could kill your snake. And, generally speaking live food is more expensive than frozen. It is also less convenient, because you have to go out and buy it every time. I get to have my snake's food in my freezer. 

The only way that any difference will be made in the feeder industry is if we stop buying live food. Live feeding is outlawed in the UK for a good reason. Yeah, I saved 5 mice from a snake. Yeah, Rosebud was "saved" by her old owner. Louis and Mendel could have been eaten, too. (humane society but only 2.50 a peice.) But at what cost did I "save" these animals? There were already at least 30 mice in the tank from which Augustus came. Many, many does, also, some of whom are probably carrying my little Gus's babies. They will all die. Others will take thier place. One or two of Augustus's litters may survive, if someone kind adopts the mother as a pet. The cycle will continue. My single purchase of one mouse seems negligable, until you consider that if everyone who went in the store saved a feeder, they would run out rapidly and ship in more, breed more, etc. 

I don't regret helping him. It was one of those "way too in love for my own good" situations. I taught the pet room staff some stuff about Mice, they watched a teenage girl reach into the tank which they never opened without fear, and pull out a mouse, put him by her face. They watched him bite me 7 times on the hand, watched me give no response- and they saw how he responded when I opened my hand, how he looked at me and let me touch him. I may have made the short time the rest of the mice there have a little brighter. Hopefully the pet room staff will give them some love for me. 

That doesn't change that I continued the cycle. You are, too, and the attitude you have about F/T is the same sort of attitude that keeps the business going for feeder breeders. If they can sell something, they will. They don't care if it gets disemboweled, only that it makes them money. It is all of our responsibility as snake owners to step up and do what is right for both predator AND prey, and hopefully end the industry alltogether.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

Kinsey said:


> Guys, I second Kiko's reminder- please, try to not be agressive or accusatory. It is one thing to state and opinion and another to attack others. We will lock the thread if it gets out of hand.
> 
> Now, in reply to the post I quoted. I, too, am a snake owner. I also have 4 pet rats and 5 pet mice. I feed Curses frozen/thawed food- it is far safer for her, and not only that, it is not cruel to the animal being eaten. Watching her eat, I can only imagine how much pain prey goes through before dying- she is downright foul sometimes and whether she's fast about it or not it makes me sad to see the way she eats. Imagine your rat dying the way your snake eats- it's cruel. Inhumane. I've seen my snake demolish her dead prey, crush it, make it explode from the pressure she puts on it. She is only 10.5 inches long. A larger snake is easily capable of doing these things to a LIVING being- my little one could do it to something alive, too, if I offered it to her. My mice and rats are both great pets. Almost all are feeders, although 3 rats are indirect. (rescued, and adopted from humane society) All of my mice were plucked from various feeder bins. My most recent addition, a lovely male named Augustus, was taken from a feeder bin last week. Imagine my wonderful, loving little companion dying the way your snake eats.
> 
> ...


I really do not have an attitude either way about f/t it is just a personal choice to feed live. Also two f/t mice are 10 bucks at the local pet stores and you just go on the assumtion that they were humanely euthinized or on what is written on the package. Though like the post before this states this is not a thread about snake food so I will drop it at that. If further discussion is needed you can create a thread about it and I will comment. I do not see the need to create a thread as i have said the argument is 50/50 and both sides feel strongly. I have my reasons you have yours :-D


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

cheshire said:


> I really do not have an attitude either way about f/t it is just a personal choice to feed live. Also two f/t mice are 10 bucks at the local pet stores and you just go on the assumtion that they were humanely euthinized or on what is written on the package. Though like the post before this states this is not a thread about snake food so I will drop it at that. If further discussion is needed you can create a thread about it and I will comment. I do not see the need to create a thread as i have said the argument is 50/50 and both sides feel strongly. I have my reasons you have yours :-D


Your attitude actually is relevant to this thread and you are absolutely correct that pre-killed food may not have been killed humanely. That is why it is so important to find humanely raised and euthanized feeders. Even if you want to continue feeding live, I still don't understand at all why you are buying substandard feeders. You yourself described them as scrawny and said it required two per feeding. Why are you not looking for someone who raises healthy feeders given a species appropriate diet and enough room to move so they develop some muscle tone? Why are ok with feeding your snake crap?

If herp owners and pet owners insisted on ethically raised animals and backed up that view with their wallets, we could most certainly make a difference.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

A box of 3 pinkies is 8 bucks at the pet store but if you order online they are 16 CENTS a peice. I bet you could find some pretty dang cheap mice for your snake that would NOT require two per feeding. And, even if they don't die from what is typically used as euthanasia, it's better than what would have happened. Like I said- Curses has literally crushed a pinkie so hard it exploded. I also have good reason to believe the ones I use do get euthanised- there is NO visible damage to the skull, or other innards, or anywhere, after the animal has been skinned. I feed pinkies, and I skinned an adult (taxidermy), but that doesn't change much. I've done a pinkie also, just to prove it was possible, and there was no damage there either.

I can tell you right now, even the boxed up feeders at the pet store I get mine from are NOT scrawny. The buck I skinned was healthy and very, very large, Shiny coat, clean, etc. Much larger than my pet mice, even. 

It's terrible for your snake to be eating substandard feeders, also. ALL of the baby mice I feed Curses are strong looking and have milk bands. They are packed with nutrition. Your mice are likely malnourished, and that just plain isn't good for your snake.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

come off the feeder discussion please, guys. it's not what the thread is about, and the whole discussion is really frowned upon... and technically really against the rules.

but really, this thread is getting way out of hand (as they aaaaalways do), and everyone will just agree to disagree. but remember that a negative, "one person can't change anything" attitude will get you nowhere.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

Really.. I am amazed at people who know so little about another person assuming they know so much. I apologize to the OP that this thread went so off course. Here I thought I was stepping into a mature discussion. I was even excited to debate the pros and cons and listen to others opinions. Only to find the responces full of negativity, assumptions, and insults. I may be new to this forum but I in no means do not do my research before hand. Now I am not I am not saying that I am never wrong there are many cases where I do have the wrong info and I am the first to step up and say I was in the wrong. Telling me that because I choose to raise my snake the way I choose to after researching through numerous scientific documents, testimonials, and having my own albeit bias personal opinion to choose what I choose, disgusts me. You do not know me, you have not seen my snake so you have no right to make assumptions on my behavior. That being said I am done posting on this thread, again I am sorry to the OP and to the other posters who actually had some interesting posts. I do not look lightly upon people accusing me of treating my animals and my animals food with less respect than they deserve. I leave this thread with one simple hope that the OP eventually gets the answers they are seeking.

BTW I am in no means mad or taking anything to heart I am just done arguing a point that has been argued since people started keeping rodents and snakes as pets. (which dates waaaay back before freezers..)


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Sorry, Jaguar.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Crisper said:


> I can understand why people don't want to support rat mills but I really don't think boycotting mill rats will make a differnce, there will always be a demand for them and they will always keep shipping them out. Because of the oppinion of mills it's the rats who suffer and miss out on loving homes with experienced rat owners. This may be an extreme example but if you were able to buy a child off the black market and save him/her from a horrible fate would you say no because you don't want to support the industry?


Mill rats and children on the black market aren't the same - there are laws regarding human rights that can be used to save and protect that child. There are no similar laws in effect for rats. A better comparison would be buying an animal off the black market. Would you buy an animal off the black market to "save" it, knowing full well that 3 more will take its place? Even if those animals are being taken from the wild and are endangered? If you say yes, because you want to "save" that one, then you are fully responsible for further endangering that species by putting money into that black market pet trade and telling them there is a market, thus they should keep stealing endangered animals from the wild to feed that market.



> I feal the mill rats need my help more, breeder rats have a good life, it's the mill rats delt the shitty hand.


Do you realize that ethical breeders NEED support in order to keep doing a good job? Without that support, not necessarily financially, there is no way a breeder can keep going. That is why it is sooo much easier to be a crappy breeder that pumps out dozens of litters a month. Those extra rats can be sold to a pet store to make money to support the venture. Being a responsible breeder requires a lot of time and dedication, it is HARD work. Every time someone says "I'm going to support a pet store because breeder rats have good homes" it is a slap in the face to that breeder. That is telling the ethical breeder "Your hard work doesn't matter to me." Thanks.



> Mills might be bad but im sure the rats would rather be alive then not be born, I'd rather live a horrible life then none at all.


Did the rats tell you this?



> Also does RESCUE rat meen from the SPCA or an owner gave it away? If so I would guess the majority of these are mill rats, so people who only buy breeder and rescue are still supporting the rat mills.


Wrong. Going to a rescue means you are supporting the RESCUE. A responsible, ethical rescue is NOT buying rats from pet stores, they are taking in owner surrenders or removing animals from abusive and neglectful homes. The money you put into a rescue does NOT go to a mill. Going to a rescue in NO way supports mills.

Going to a responsible, ethical breeder also does NOT support mills. That breeder is NOT buying their rats from mills, thus none of their money goes to mills. Thus you are NOT supporting mills by going to a responsible, ethical breeder.

If you got to your average Joe Blow backyard breeder who buys pet store rats and breeds them, yes, you are supporting a mill. However Joe Blow is not even in the same league as the responsible, ethical breeder.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Crisper said:


> Those rats you adopt from the pet store are still being replaced by more mill rats. The rats you take from rescue at a store got to old and wern't bought, the quicker you take them meens theres more room in the rescue. They will take the next set of older ones there trying to sell and put them in the rescue, wich leaves more room so they can buy more babys wich they can sell. Thus you have supported the mill.


Wrong. Ethical rescues are NOT taking rats from pet stores.



> As for the issue of my ideas being bias, isn't that what you are doing with these pet shop rats by not wanting to own them simply because of where there from.


No one said they don't want to own a pet store rat. What people are saying is they will NOT *buy* from a pet store. Huge difference.

If you don't get the difference: 
I refuse to BUY a brand new 2012 car. But if I won a brand new 2012 car or someone was kind enough to gift me a brand new 2012 car, I would take it. 



> Also just because people boycott pet stores for cats and dogs it hasent really made a differnce, theres more strays then there was 20 years ago and it keeps growing.


Because people continue going to backyard breeders without doing their research. Because people continue acquiring pets without doing their research. It isn't the pet stores creating those strays, it is irresponsible people who buy a cute puppy without putting in the research first, without putting in the time to train that puppy, expecting it to be a perfect robot that does everything it should. Then when puppy grows up into a terror or is no longer cute, irresponsible owner dumps it and goes buy another cute puppy. Pet stores aren't the only problem, they are one piece of the bigger puzzle. In the case of dogs and cats, part of that puzzle was solved by stopping pet stores from selling mill-bred dogs and cats. The next piece to solve is stopping backyard breeders and irresponsible owners. 



> The cats and dogs that are bought for money people tend to hold onto, theres way to many free cats and dogs ads from careless owners and breeders. People take these animals and guess what they don't care about getting rid of them because there was no price tag on them.


Wrong. People buy things and break them all the time. People buy expensive dogs and cats and dump them all the time. A price tag does not mean people value it any more. Lack of a price tag does not mean people value it any less.


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## HollyWells (Oct 21, 2011)

I think it's actually rather great how passionate people can be about this subject matter, and ever since my first rat what must have been about 10 years ago, I swore to myself I would never purchase from a pet store again. He was sold to me and my parents (I was about 11, at the time) singular and poorly socialised, and sent us packing with their 'recommended' cage and bedding (both of which I now know were completely wrong for rats), and no one seemed to have a single doubt in their minds that taking care of a rat would be the same as taking care of a hamster. Needless to say, once I started doing my research, I learnt I had done everything all wrong, that he was miserable on his own, and **** well hated myself and the terrible pet store for being so clueless. When he passed away, we did things properly, went to a breeder and picked up three little baby boys, and I was amazed at how happy they were.

However, I do not for an instant regret picking up Bowie and Zen from the pet store just over a month ago. At the time, I wasn't intending on going against my rule of not buying animals from pet stores, but when I saw them in their tiny tank I realised that I could make a difference to their lives. I still hold that any future rats I get will be from the same breeder I got Bug from, but my concern is for the welfare of the animal, and I'm afraid I can't walk away from a rat that is so clearly destined to be snake food or the mistreated and misunderstood pet of a demanding child.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

I believe a fair few of us start out by looking after our rats 'wrongly'- mostly due to misinformation. I got my first two girls from a pet shop round the corner which I now know is awful. They have one mother rat that pumps out all the babies and by God is she huge. My first two girls were actually mother and daughter- by taking the mother they couldn't breed anymore babies from her (this isn't the same rat I just mentioned- that's their current breeder)
She was so unsocialised it's unbelievable. I could just never tame her- she'd bite you every time you went near her and that taught the baby to be like that aswell, it was just awful. Being my first pair of rats I wasn't really prepared for such intense training with her and she was already fairly old (about 2 I think and they were still breeding her!) so she just stuck like that.
It was almost like a first-hand view of a rat mill, if only a microcosm of one and I didn't enjoy it.
It didn't put me off getting rats, but, as silly as it sounds, I wasn't aware that breeders even existed for rats. So when the mother rat passed I got 2 youngsters from Pets at home- thinking that bad breeding only happened in little pet shops.
The last two I just recently got I have to admit I did know that breeders existed, and I did try to get some rats from a breeder. One of my girls had passed, leaving her cagemates terribly upset. Straightaway they were very quiet and depressed. it was heartbreaking. I phoned around all the breeders in my area (a grand total of 2!) Neither had any current litters. So I made that decision. I did it knowingly, and I'd do it again. The second I introduced the new rats to the girls they livened up. It was amazing to see them like that after weeks of being depressed.
This time around, I'm doing my research- I'm travelling farther, I called the breeder 2 months ago and asked to be contacted about the litter she has planned around Christmas time. I've also put my name in at a couple of rescues in case they get any rats in and I feel morally better for it.
I don't regret getting the rats I've got because I know I've made a difference to their lives, I love them to bits and the circumstances were different, but for the future I've definitely learnt my lesson.
I still think about the big mummy rat at the pet shop every day and what a horrible life she must lead.


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

I think it's like rats are prostitues and pet shops are their pimps.


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## sewbama (Oct 1, 2011)

I work in a pet store, and got my three girls from there. We do not sell feeder rats. ALL our rats are to be sold as pets, and are treated as pets while they are in the store. I know it isn't the same everywhere, but we love our rats. Three people out of a 10 person crew are rat owners. We do not breed rats. We also do not buy from a mill. We have a lot of rats right now from accidental breedings by uninformed owners in the area, and this is where most of our rats come from. We do not pay for them, so there is not supply/demand interaction there. The supply of rats in our store is solely based on the people bringing us rats. So people buying pet store rats from us is doing nothing to perpetuate the terrible treatment of rats. Though I know this isn't the way it works in most places, knowing how close our staff is to our rats, I know we aren't the only ones. People who work in pet stores are animal lovers. There is no other way to be happy in that job. We treat all our animals well, and socialize them from the time they come in the store until the day they find a home. They are handled, snuggled, given treats, and as much space to roam as we can possibly give them. 

I say all this to say that buying rats at a pet store is not evil. Use your judgement. If you ask about rats and someone says "uh, yea. That cage." and the rats won't come see what is going on, you might want to consider getting your rats elsewhere (and telling the manager off about their treatment of the rats). But I know when someone comes in my store and asks about rats, I point out the boys, the girls, tell their ages, point out their coat and dumbo/standard/rex difference, pull a couple out of the cage so they can see how social they are, etc. If they won't let you do this, they are contributing to the problem, and you should avoid them. 

Buy healthy, happy, social rats. Breeder or pet store.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

sewbama said:


> I work in a pet store, and got my three girls from there. We do not sell feeder rats. ALL our rats are to be sold as pets, and are treated as pets while they are in the store. I know it isn't the same everywhere, but we love our rats. Three people out of a 10 person crew are rat owners. We do not breed rats. We also do not buy from a mill. We have a lot of rats right now from accidental breedings by uninformed owners in the area, and this is where most of our rats come from. We do not pay for them, so there is not supply/demand interaction there. The supply of rats in our store is solely based on the people bringing us rats. So people buying pet store rats from us is doing nothing to perpetuate the terrible treatment of rats. Though I know this isn't the way it works in most places, knowing how close our staff is to our rats, I know we aren't the only ones. People who work in pet stores are animal lovers. There is no other way to be happy in that job. We treat all our animals well, and socialize them from the time they come in the store until the day they find a home. They are handled, snuggled, given treats, and as much space to roam as we can possibly give them.
> 
> I say all this to say that buying rats at a pet store is not evil. Use your judgement. If you ask about rats and someone says "uh, yea. That cage." and the rats won't come see what is going on, you might want to consider getting your rats elsewhere (and telling the manager off about their treatment of the rats). But I know when someone comes in my store and asks about rats, I point out the boys, the girls, tell their ages, point out their coat and dumbo/standard/rex difference, pull a couple out of the cage so they can see how social they are, etc. If they won't let you do this, they are contributing to the problem, and you should avoid them.
> 
> Buy healthy, happy, social rats. Breeder or pet store.


You say most of your rats are owner surrendered? Where are the other rats from?

People who work in pet stores are most certainly not all animal lovers. You may be, and that is awesome, and many other people who work in pet stores are too, but not all are. No one was saying pet store employees were bad people anyway though.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

smesyna said:


> You say most of your rats are owner surrendered? Where are the other rats from?
> 
> People who work in pet stores are most certainly not all animal lovers. You may be, and that is awesome, and many other people who work in pet stores are too, but not all are. No one was saying pet store employees were bad people anyway though.


And regardless whether or not the employees are animal lovers... a lot of them are very misinformed. Some of the things I've heard about rats from pet store employees:
- Males have to be kept alone because they fight.
- Hamster cages are suitable housing for rats.
- Aquariums are suitable housing for rats.
- Alfalfa pellets is suitable food for rats.
- Can't tell males and females apart.
- Rats don't need to see the vet.


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## sewbama (Oct 1, 2011)

Since I have worked there, ALL have been owner surrendered. I say most because I am not sure how things happened before I was there. However, two or three litters of owner-surrendered rats goes a long way for a small shop like us. Those who are not animal lovers do not last long in the stores. I've seen many come and go. As for bad advice, those stores must not have good training, and I also wouldn't trust them to recommend a good dog food, etc. A few words to management could make a difference, rather than just not shopping there. 

My real advice is to use your judgment in a pet store rather than saying all pet stores are bad. I'd also say that if you see rats in a bad situation, speak to the manager.


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## Blarklark (Oct 31, 2011)

Its funny. It seems like alot of people here do not want petstores to be selling rats. I get that.. but why is there no "pups available" or breeder listings here?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Blarklark said:


> Its funny. It seems like alot of people here do not want petstores to be selling rats. I get that.. but why is there no "pups available" or breeder listings here?


The forum allows rescue listings or rehomes, I believe, just not breeder listings due to the desire to not support unethical, irresponsible, backyard breeders (who are far more plentiful than ethical, responsible breeders).


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## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

sorraia said:


> The forum allows rescue listings or rehomes, I believe, just not breeder listings due to the desire to not support unethical, irresponsible, backyard breeders (who are far more plentiful than ethical, responsible breeders).


Plus, it helps those pups that nobody really wanted and are more in need than those that were bred purposefully.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Blarklark said:


> Its funny. It seems like alot of people here do not want petstores to be selling rats. I get that.. but why is there no "pups available" or breeder listings here?


my apologies, but are you blind? both are here:

http://www.ratforum.com/forumdisplay.php?39-Adoption-Center


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