# Rquesting information about Breeding



## keelie

Hi, I realize that breeding is strongly discouraged by private individuals, especially those with little experience such as us (Nick and Tiffany), but we are looking to take a shot at it.

Basically we have two males and 3 females that are currently separated with no intention of mixing them until we find out some information.

I am looking to breed our rats and give them away to be sold through a pet super store that lacks any pet rats despite the display case for them.

They have plenty of feeders however, which is where all of our female rats have been rescued from. 

I am basically inquiring about how safe it is to breed feeders? And other then not being handled as much and raised for food purposes, is there anything unique that makes a feeder just that.. a feeder. (Something genetically?)

Our females are as follows
Powder = 100% Albino
Sugar = Albino with half her body Tan
Magics = Black and White

In addition, I've read the main thread for this forum with the story about Lil'Bit. It's sad but does that story play a direct roll in my breeding possibilities?

And finally, if those of you who have read this and feel that we should give it a go. Before we even think about that step, we could really use any and all resources about breeding rats that you all know of 

Thanks,
Nick and Tiffany


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## ambernd

Wow.... you have touched a VERY VERY touchy subject on this forum and be prepared to be answering a LOT of questions. Almost everyone oon here is against feeder rats and selling them to pet stores. Even if they will be selling them as pets. I don't even see how someone can have the heart to even think about breeding as feeders.... I don't think you are gonna get any suppoort on here. People are just gonna tell you not to.... and agian very very touchy subject with feeder rat and the whole topic of breeding rats with unnone genetics.... Just be prepared for everyones questions..... Hope it all works out for you... Amber


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## Phobie

I don't know if Nick and Tiffany were asking about breeding TO BE feeders, I think that they were asking about breeding their rescued feeders, am I right? Still, I wouldn't breed for a pet store, you never know where those babies might end up 

Then again, I might have the wrong idea altogether, and they may be enquiring about breeding feeders..


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr

In response to your request for information.

Dont do it.

Short, succinct and to the point.

Hope you heed this.


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## lilspaz68

Hmm...lets start here

Sugar - 100% Albino (we call them PEW's now, since a true albino is a genetically different rat)
Sugar - Albino with 1/2 her body tan is actually most likley a beige bareback with ruby eyes.
Magics - black and white? Hooded, berkshire?

OK these are phenotypes or what you can see, they have absolutely nothing to do with what babies your girls will produce (genotypes). The reason petstore rats are discouraged in breeding is that they are genetic timebombs. You have NO clue what genes they will carry and combine to create what disasters in the future. Using feeders is 10 times worse since these are rats that are all supposed to die and who cares how long they live, if they get respiratory infections, or tumours at a young age.

You can take your pretty Sugar girl and breed her to a pretty boy and end up with a huge litter of rats prone to die at 12 months old. I know of a girl in Winnipeg whose petstore rats are ancient at 18 months and most die at 10-15 months of age. ALL of them, not just a few. These are feeder stock. And to get that far they need a lot of medical attention. The ones that don't get vet care are the ones that die at 10 months. 

You need to read up a lot on genetics, rat care, etc, before making this huge decision which is going to affect a lot of lives, not just the rats but the people who may buy your rats from this petstore. If you want to be a breeder you need to find an accredited breeder and get them to mentor you properly.

And if the petstore aren't able to sell your babies and they get too big do they get dumped in with their own feeders? Most likely. 

You cannot guarantee good homes for your rats, you cannot guarantee anything for your babies, since you will have sold them to the petstore that already carries feeder rats.

If you continue on this path you will be considered a backyard breeder and they are the lowest of the low in the rat world.


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## keelie

Well like we said, we are looking on finding information first. If we can't do it then we can't do it, if we can do it, we can do it. I know there is a demand but no rats. The petstore I am interested in is called PetLand and if they have pet rats to sell, they sell for less then the feeders. I know that I can get in touch with the lady that raises the feeder rats so I can at least ask about their genetics. It's not something I plan on doing tomorrow. It's just something I want to look into mainly because I don't like having my rats separated and don't really believe in spaying or nueitoring as I view that as a sad thing to do to any animal. I know some of the individuals that work at the petstore have their own rats that they take care of and were very knowledgable about rats and have helped me with my rat issues up until this point. I am confident in the demand that they will all find homes. I am confident that they workers know enough and care enough about rats to take good care of them. I just don't know about my ability and the genetic problems that my rats may have so this is what I wish to look into.


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr

while its commendable that you decided to gather information first (because it seems that most people just jump into this blindly), youve just got to realize that this is not a positive thing no matter how you slice it.

Listen, Ive not been a member here long. To be honest, Ive not been a rat owner long and to be even MORE honest, Ive not even been a rat lover all that long. The short time that I have been these things, Ive gotten more of an education than I ever wanted or thought was possible to obtain. The things that Ive learned propelled me into saying yes the first time that I got a phone call from a friend of a friend who had heard that I have pet rats, begging me to help them with unwanted pets. It has dominoed from there as most of the rat rescues in my area closed a while back due to broken hearts. I can see how this happens. Ive gone in a month from having a couple of pet rats to now having 15 of surrender rescues and 2 more that are to be dropped off tomorrow. Most of these are babies. Most of the babies come from people that bred them that got some information and thougth that they could do what others have spent years learning. It doesnt work. It never works. 

By going ahead and doing this you arent helping anything or anyone; all you are doing is giving into a wanton hedonistic desire. Please dont do that. Please.

Ive not seen anything like what so many of the members here have seen. But Ive seen enough. I had my first experience of watching the life painfully slip from a wrongfully bred baby while he lay gasping in my hand. I cant tell you the pain that elicited - and I feel guilty even saying that I felt pain when I think of how much pain my sweet Nimbus endured. All because someone with a few weeks of 'knowledge' just HAD to breed some pretty babies. Please dont do it. Please.

No matter how much you read and research, you wont be prepared for this. Days, weeks or even months of research do NOT compare to the years of knowledge that a reputable breeder has. Again....Please, please, please dont do this. All life is precious - no life is disposable. Please do not create life that you really arent prepared to handle.

Im not being a b****. Im not being 'mean' to you. I dont even know you.
But I am asking you to rise above you desire and do the right thing.

Please. Please dont do this. Please.

Please.


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## keelie

The kind of opposition that I see here leaves me a little stunned. I doubt I will attempt this task now despite how perhaps a few words were enough to hit a nerve. But I would like the reasons why to at least be explained to me in great detail, at least, this is what we ask. Why do the rats die from this genetic fault? Are my rats that I have now going to possibly die because of this? How do you become a good breeder with the right rats? Am I ever going to find my favorite work pen? 

These are the questions I ask at the very least be answered so that we can at least further understand the issue...


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## lilspaz68

The feeder breeder won't be able to tell you about genetics because unlike responsible/ethical breeders doesn't follow her lines sionce they are meant to be food at a young age.
A good pet rat breeder keeps 1-2 of the offspring of a litter so they can see how the line is working out first hand. If there are any health or temperament issues, etc. A responsible breeder has a contract where adopters have to let them know about any health/temperament issues, deaths, etc. NARR (North American Rat Registry) is a huge database on breeders. Once you pay your fee, you can enter all your lines information, transfers of breeding stock, even pet-only rats. Other owners/breeders who are members of NARR can see the background and pedigrees of their rats and other breeder's rats, etc. Most breeders have at least 3 generations of their rats pedigree known, most have more, and only breed healthy stock. 

I have had one oops litter that taught me a lot. Only one baby died from unknown causes at about 5 months of age. It was devastating to hear of it. The girl I adopted to, hadn't told me her circumstances had changed and her she couldn't afford vet care any longer. Dwynn died along with an unrelated male to what seemed like a toxin. 

One litter takes a lot of effort, money, and tears. You need to have a good vet on hand just in case there is a problem during labour. The mother may not have enough milk or may reject the babies, meaning handfeeding where most of them will die. Megacolon can easily affect your rats because the high-white markings sometimes "hide" their appearance. 

I hope you luck out and your sweet rats live healthy until 3 but its very unlikely. The average rat goes to the vet at least 2-3 times in their life. We'll say one URI, something else and a euthanasia. 

How old are your rats now? I take it no health problems yet?


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## keelie

Other then the ones that I have already listed on this forum, no. But I do have four that have died for a random reason or another. Only one was for unknown complications. These rats are listed in a post on the memory lane forum.

Powder the female albino is currently recovering in isolation due to some sort of internal injury, busted blood vessel or of the sort and although slowly, she is making a recovery.

The female are still young but there is no telling for the males. The males were bought AS pets while the females were all rescued and were supposed to be feeders.


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## Forensic

Breeding feeders is kinda like shooting guns off in the dark. You'll hit something, but likely as not it won't be good.

You have no idea what these rats have in their genetics. Even if they're healthy and live to be five years old with now problems, the rittens could die at a year of PT or be spastic.

Especially when you take into effect the personalities of your males. I would NEVER breed an aggressive rat or one that's spastic....

And you have no idea what's in their genetics either. "Bred to be pets" doesn't really mean much. Often times it means they were the prettier or healthier rittens in a litter and got shuffled over to the 'pet' pile.

And then to just GIVE the babes to the store... What will the store do with them if they cannot sell one? What if they all turn out like Sugar, PEW? Many people don't want/don't like PEW or think they're lab rats and not pets. What if they all turn out agouti, brown ticked fur? Or black? What will the store do if the rats are getting big and out of their 'cute' stage? Will they dump them over in the feeder bin?

Add to this... how could you ever keep the store in supply? You couldn't, not without effectively killing your females.


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## keelie

Well I'm not looking to keep the store in supply, just help out those who are already looking for rats. The stores in my areas that actually carry rats are gone out of business, this is the only one i can find and they are feeders only b/c there is noone that breeds over pets over here.

But still, I am still wanting to know what is in this genetics that causes this. I'm sure someone knows the answer...


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## Forensic

What genetics causes what? A short lifespan?

This can come from a tendency towards cancer, towards weakness against myco, genetic heart defects, or any other organ for that matter... all of which would lead to a rat that, minus this genetic timebomb would live a long happy live, and instead is doomed to die early.

You cannot know if your rat has this sort of thing without watching many generations grow to adulthood and die of natural causes.


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## keelie

But why are these rats so easily taken by these genetic defects. Why is it such a large scale problem. If I went into the sewers of new york city and grabbed two rats and breed them would their babies die? I have so many questions, I just don't understand. It seems mind boggling. Does it just affect possible feeder rats? ect. ect.


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## Forensic

If the sewer rats had these defects, then yes.

Actually it's fairly likely they'd die young, wild rats don't live as long.

But you have to consider that feeders are breed for QUANTITY. This means that the breeder may not care if brother inseminates mother, or sister, or daughter. Uncontrolled and unmonitored, this leads to amplification of bad traits. The breeder doesn't care. Most of the rats will be fed too young to know if they have anything bad. It's only when they become pets or are bred for pets that it's apparent that their genetics have suffered horribly due to this mass-output of rats.


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## keelie

So outside of feeders, there is no less of a chance then any other rat or do rats in general have a strong chance of having a life treatening defect unlike say.. humans.


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## Forensic

Pet rats are, by necessity, inbred, therefore prone to strange things. That's how you domesticate a creature. Reputable breeders breed to minimize the poor effects. But what you're talking about is not reputable breeding.


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## keelie

I guess I'll dump the breeding idea then. I think I'm going to build a split cage now instead, females on one side, males on the other. Stick a roasted peanut inbetween the bars and see which side wins


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## Forensic

Wouldn't suggest it... rats can and will breed through cage bars.


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## keelie

I'll double up the wall then with a tiny space inbetween. Remember, I'm making the cage so unless one of the males is a good shot, I'm pretty sure I'll have it covered.


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr

wow


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## Forensic

The bigger the space the better.

In fact it'd be best to neuter the boys and/or spay the girls.

And no more putting them together while cleaning the cage!


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## keelie

I couldn't neuter or spay an animal. I feel it's cruel


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## Forensic

Then I'd suggest keeping them in completely separate cages, maybe even in separate rooms.


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## keelie

they are smart, but not that smart, the last time Van tried to scape, I found him stuck to the ceiling.... at least I guess he was trying to escape.. He somehow lodged his toenails inbetween the connection point of the bars


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## Forensic

I think you'd be surprised... people have had rats get out of their cage, across the room, into the other cage and get pregnant... it happens.


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## twitch

i find the ethics side of neuter and spaying quite fascinating. personally i'm on the side of the alteration because of the health benefits to the animal. with rats it can often greatly expand the life expectancy. 

i even endorse the choice for humans. in my case it would be benefical if i could get a sub-total histerectomy (when they only take the uterus) do to genetic health issues. mind you that is something i can decide for myself so i do understand the other side on the issue that you cannot ask the animal if this is an operation that is wanted. 

but i am curious as to your reasoning why you believe it is cruel to have yours rats altered. is it because you cannot ask them if it is something they want or something else? 

i also recommend that you try to separate the males and females more. or at least when making the cage make sure that the partition between the two genders is made of something solid and the wire for the other walls to be made of a fine and strong mesh. i had 2 surprise litters back to back and they were more trouble then there worth. you do not want that headache and heartache.


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## ambernd

Forensic said:


> I think you'd be surprised... people have had rats get out of their cage, across the room, into the other cage and get pregnant... it happens.


I am living proof of that fact!!!..... I don't really see what would be wrong with her cage just as long as she checks to make sure they are there as often as she can..... But then again it could be a toal desaster and you could have some prego females.... hard to say what rats will do....


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## Rodere

> But why are these rats so easily taken by these genetic defects. Why is it such a large scale problem.


To answer that question.. because so many people take rats with unknown genetics and breed them because they want to raise babies. And because there are many many accidental litters every year. You cannot weed out the genetic problems when the unmonitored breeding happens on such a scale as it does with rats. 

Feeders are bred for quantity, not quality. They'll stick a bunch of rats in a cage/aquarium and wait for babies. And even litters get mixed, so you never know who the parents are. Then the parents get sold as 'large feeders' while the babies are sold young as 'small feeders', and the cycle begins for whatever rats are left with the breeder. And eventually the older rats (if not sold as feeders) die of old age, sickness, lack of medical care, genetic disorders, or over breeding. So whatever rats are of breeding age as those die are put in their place. They are, more often than not, raised in squalor and filth (because face it, it's hard to clean up after as many rats as feeder breeders keep), and the person rarely bothers to watch and see how long certain rats live, or how healthy any of them may be if they were pets. As feeders, it isn't expected for them to need to live for very long, so health is of no consequence when breeding.

If you truly want to breed rats as pets, then you should mentor under a reputable breeder (Most or all of which are registered with NARR). Talk to the petstore. If they are really interested in providing their customers with quality pet rats, they should work with you. Perhaps you could leave your information there at the store and they could give it to anyone wanting a rat as a pet. That way the rats are never at the store and you can ask the potential owners some questions before they adopt.

However... anything like that should be far off. First you need to learn how to take care of your rats. How long have you owned them as pets? You need to learn about their problems, how to take good care of them, what foods to feed or not to feed, bedding, their personalities, how to handle difficult rats, maybe do some rescue work with them (rewarding, but stressful). Mentor under a reputable breeder for a while and then aquire good breeding stock. You're at least a year or two from that point.

Experience is key. I've owned rats since I was 11 and I am now 20, nearly 21. I've been studying the genetics for nearly 4 years now and have been mentored for nearly a year. And believe I am ready, but only after doing all of that. Take your time. If you are in it for the right reasons, then you should wait it out. As they say, the best things are always worth waiting for.


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## Poppyseed

Hrm, I don't understand why spaying your rats is cruel and putting them into close quarters with the opposite sex to be overran with litters that are to be taken away and thrown into pet store isn't. Just don't get it. Why take all those females and throw them into the same cages with the males because 'you want them all to live together but spaying and neutering is so cruel' only to have the females taxed from litter after litter so you could supply the pet store and keep all your rats together?

If you think spaying and neutering is cruel, why didn't you just stick to one sex? To me, forcing a pet to be in such close quarters with the opposite sex is cruel. You are forcing them to have many litters that aren't good for their body taxing their system and producing babies that are more than likely going to be kept in less than adequate conditions ):

Just me not understanding you logic behind why spaying and neutering is cruel. If no pets were spayed or neutered, our streets would be overran with unwanted pets being thrown into the gas chambers (because we wouldn't be able to afford humane euthanasia for that crazy amount of pets. Some do this now as it is) day after day. If my ferrets weren't spayed they would die of anemia by their first heat. If my cat wasn't spayed she would of had a billion litters since she loves to escape outside. 

Rats that are spayed and neutered show less stress. They are more mellow and calm. Females are dramatically less prone to mammary tumors. Males are less stressed leading to less myco flair ups and less fights. This means less instances of abscessed wounds, degloving, toes being bitten off exc.

But spaying and neutering are cruel... I just don't get it. Perhaps you aren't looking at the big picture?

As you decide on whether or not to breed rats, a rat is being kept in an aquarium out there. Others are setting rats out in fields because they are unwanted anymore. A rat is dying at less than a year of internal tumors. Another has chronic breathing problems but a pet store sold it to someone who couldn't afford the bills, so it is left to suffer in its pine bedded aquarium. The pet store didn't tell this person anything about rats and this person doesn't care. Another rat is being accidentally sold with the opposite sex and the person who adopted them can't sex the babies, so more and more litters happen. In just a couple of months hundreds of rats are there still breeding in over ran cages. All of this can happen from one litter sold to a pet store. Do you really want to be responsible for that?


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## CaptainFlow

Whew, you guys sure know how to put the weight on a topic. 

But they're right, do not breed unless you have the years of experience, and the quality lines to enhance. 

And just my two cents, I think it is WAY cruel to put intact males and females where they can see, smell, and ALMOST interact with each other, but find no fulfilment. They're animals, they're driven by instinct and horomones, and sometimes quite powerful horomones that do terrible things to their minds. Especially if you force them to be so close to the object of their desires. I see no cruelty in spaying/neutering, since there are so many health benefits, and the rats can be free of forever unfulfilled horomone desires. Especially if you intend to keep them so close, where they would be frustrated for the rest of their lives, and possibly hurt themselves trying to get to one another.


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## keelie

Here is a quote from Rodere



> To answer that question.. because so many people take rats with unknown genetics and breed them because they want to raise babies. And because there are many many accidental litters every year. You cannot weed out the genetic problems when the unmonitored breeding happens on such a scale as it does with rats.
> 
> Feeders are bred for quantity, not quality. They'll stick a bunch of rats in a cage/aquarium and wait for babies. And even litters get mixed, so you never know who the parents are. Then the parents get sold as 'large feeders' while the babies are sold young as 'small feeders', and the cycle begins for whatever rats are left with the breeder. And eventually the older rats (if not sold as feeders) die of old age, sickness, lack of medical care, genetic disorders, or over breeding. So whatever rats are of breeding age as those die are put in their place. They are, more often than not, raised in squalor and filth (because face it, it's hard to clean up after as many rats as feeder breeders keep), and the person rarely bothers to watch and see how long certain rats live, or how healthy any of them may be if they were pets. As feeders, it isn't expected for them to need to live for very long, so health is of no consequence when breeding.
> 
> If you truly want to breed rats as pets, then you should mentor under a reputable breeder (Most or all of which are registered with NARR). Talk to the petstore. If they are really interested in providing their customers with quality pet rats, they should work with you. Perhaps you could leave your information there at the store and they could give it to anyone wanting a rat as a pet. That way the rats are never at the store and you can ask the potential owners some questions before they adopt.
> 
> However... anything like that should be far off. First you need to learn how to take care of your rats. How long have you owned them as pets? You need to learn about their problems, how to take good care of them, what foods to feed or not to feed, bedding, their personalities, how to handle difficult rats, maybe do some rescue work with them (rewarding, but stressful). Mentor under a reputable breeder for a while and then aquire good breeding stock. You're at least a year or two from that point.
> 
> Experience is key. I've owned rats since I was 11 and I am now 20, nearly 21. I've been studying the genetics for nearly 4 years now and have been mentored for nearly a year. And believe I am ready, but only after doing all of that. Take your time. If you are in it for the right reasons, then you should wait it out. As they say, the best things are always worth waiting for.


Keep in mind that Rodere here is the ONLY one that answered my question correctly, the first time, and without looking down upon me. The rest of you react without even thinking. 

In other words, as I explained in another post about rat aggression, some of you and nearly all of you that responded to this post did so in the wrong way. You care so much about the topic that you are willing to defend it by looking down upon that person, by putting that person on their heals. In other words you make that person feel that he or she has to defend themselves.

Keep in mind that this world is not a very logical one and many people are either irrational or don't care. This could mean that, lets say someone else were in my place, there is a chance that they will do exactly the opposite of what you say in spite. I know for a fact that yesterday the words "Boy, I'd do this, if it wasn't for this..." Now just put probably half the idiots in this world in my place and guess what you got. 

If you can't respond to a post without keeping your personal feelings inside you rather then inside your words, then you shouldn't post at all. You should wait for someone else ... such as Rodere to respond who can reply in a respectable and professional way. You should treat aspects of your life as jobs. Because irrationality is a good way to get fired in the work place and there is a good reason for that! The rest of you who just react because of what you feel inside you makes you no different from any other animal because all your doing is using your instincts and if you haven't noticed, part of what makes humans seperated from animals is the fact that we are able to override our emotions, it is what makes us a better individual in society. It allows us to not be abusive, solve relationship problems, retain a job, be successful and the list goes on.



> Hrm, I don't understand why spaying your rats is cruel


I feel it is cruel because it is my belief that an individual should not have themself spayed or neutered. This just simply has to do with what I believe in. It is why I have no intention of going under the knife. Now if the person wants to go do that and then that's fine. But no, i can't exactly ask the rats and if they were smart enough to understand and talk, either chances are they would say no because as of now all they go off is emotion or they would be smart enough to invent rat condoms. So of course there is no win win situation for this scenario. It is just one that I'll have to think long and hard about and come up with the best answer that best serves my wants, the rat needs, and what is best for everyone. 

_There I am done with what I have to say. If you respond to what I have to say above in a defense manner then all your telling me is that I put you on your heals and what ever it is that you want to throw at me is an irrational statement. So please stick to the topics at hand and keep it nice, otherwise you don't deserve to be responding._


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## lilspaz68

So can the rats talk to you and tell you they want to be bred repeatedly over and over again? By your logic you are still making that decision for them.

Keep the sexes separate, not side by side (that is a mental cruelty because of the instinctual drive to procreate), do not breed your unknown genetic and obviously not healthy in body or mind rats and we'll all get along fine. IF you had read the title of this section of the forum you would realize what you were asking was going to get passionate responses from most. We are very passionate about the care and future of our rats. 

As a forum you do not have the right to tell us how to respond to your posts. You can ask that the mod's lock it, thats your right but you cannot ask us to act like we are in a workplace? What does that mean anyways? This is a FORUM where people have exchanges of ideas and opinions. :roll:


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## keelie

Ok well I believe that yes rats do want to bred repeatively... if they didn't then they wouldn't. If you use my logic or if you don't

You can keep bringing up putting the sexes side by side, I already decided that was a bad idea, but you don't need to repeat it as many times as you have.

If you had read this post then you would have realized that I did read the title of this section and the original questions derived from that post.

And yes I have a RIGHT to tell you anything I want. Now instead of telling you or more correctly, asking you.. I will now inform you that you are really just a complete jerk, don't care about how others feel from your words and most importantly a complete idiot.. yes I used the word idiot because I dislike you, because *you feel the need to base an opinion on what I have said without first understanding it.*


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## lilspaz68

Ahh you do not know me at all, I love to help people, give them support, information if they need it, or just a hug when a beloved rat has died. 

You on the other hand give us a little information, we pull the rest from you like pulling teeth, figure out that you don't know too much (which is fine, we all start somewhere) and you are planning on breeding rats that are not healthy, but also have temperament issues to sell to a petstore that carries feeders. You have raised every red flag in the book minus the actually keeping them outside.

I was seriously thinking you were not for real and were a troll sent in here from a snake forum to rile up the Crazy Rat Lovers.


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## lilspaz68

keelie said:


> Ok well I believe that yes rats do want to bred repeatively... if they didn't then they wouldn't.


And this one has to be clarified. Rats are instinctual beings, meaning they must procreate. Out in the wild (where those instincts are based) the female runs from the male and only the fastest/strongest/healthiest ones get to mate her and be the father of her offspring. The reason that rodents have this insane imperative to breed (every 4-5 days the female goes into heat) is that they are PREY and get eaten and killed regularly. The mass breeding is only to keep the population up. If we let our pet rodent, in a controlled environment, breed like that you would swiftly be overrun.

There is no want, there is only instinctual need.


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## keelie

I've been sent here by A HIGHER POWER to RILE up you! 

You obviously don't love people if you feel the need to talk down to them!

You didn't have to figure out that I didn't know a whole lot because that was stated in my posts that you have apprently read.. again you are basing something off something that was already stated.

Just because my plans were bad and raised red flags do not call for such aggrivated responses, just information which is what the ORIGINAL INTENT of this conversation was supposed to be. But you decided to turn it into something else...

again if you never existed in the first place, none of this would be happening, I would have gotten my answer eventually the NICE way from someone else instead of having it spewed at me in multiple posts with spit attached AKA: SPAZ ATTACK


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## lilspaz68

oh no, I normally do not take part in flaming. Read a few posts in this section for how others normally take care of those asking these type of questions. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer. Go ahead, do a search for my posts.


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## keelie

I could care less about your posts, I could care less about you still breathing, I could care less about you in general. What I really care about is why are you still replying to my posts. Have you not taken a hint that you are a very bothersome individual and instead of offering help like you so claim to, all you have done is offer a reason to dislike you.


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## lilspaz68

and this should bother me...why?

I will stop now.


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## keelie

And I FEEL the need to repeat myself HERE

*THE ORIGINAL POST WAS AN ATTEMPT TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ABOUT BREEDING!*

you have failed to realize this!

Do you like forget what you read the second you read it


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## lilspaz68

Do you realize your continued posting is just asking for more responses? You could have let it drop.

Lil - because I am not (5'11")
Spaz - my beloved PEW girl who never had vet care, etc (long time ago) 
68 - birth year


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## keelie

I am still posting because I am not sugar coating anything anymore, I hate you, think your an idiot, and hope a train falls on you or at least that's my polite way of saying it.


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## lilspaz68

Its soo nice to be hated by anonymous people. Why a train? Why not a truck or a bridge or an elevator plunging down the shaft out of control?


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## ambernd

Ok I agree with both sides here. lilspaz you're not really helping here out here and you are not giving here the information she needs and you're not getting what she is trying to say. She is saying SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BREED THE WRONG WAY AND WANTS TO DO IT RIGHT AND NEEDS GOOD INFO SO SHE CAN DO IT RIGHT. Keelie correct me if Im wrong.

And Keelie you are feaking out over this and calling lilspaz an idiot and calling her stupid is totaly uncalled for. She has givin me loads of good info on some of my posts and yea, a LOT of people are against breeding for obvious reasons and she is just trying to help you understand what a big effect it causes. You DO NOT need to be critizing her when she is trying to help. Yea it seems she is putting you down. So what, she shouldn't bring you down with her. She is giving her advice and I would suggest you take it, as she is very smart and NOT STUPID. And yea, she could be nicer about it. AND SO COUlD YOU.

This is just my opion on things but I just hope you guys can get over this...


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr

keelie said:


> I am still posting because I am not sugar coating anything anymore, I hate you, think your an idiot, and hope a train falls on you or at least that's my polite way of saying it.


wow.
hate is a strong word. any mature individual realizes that to hate a person that you do not even know is impossible. Psychologically speaking, you hate the fact that what is being said is bringing out characteristics within yourself that even you are not comfortable with.

You hope a train falls on her - my 6 year old said something similar to one of her little playmates just last week.

cute.

You brought all of this upon yourself. Even the first reply to this post warned you.

The people here have dedicated years and in some cases, their entire adult lifetimes to the care and protection of these animals. They have superior knowledge and should be respected for it as well as shown at least a modicum of gratitude for it. However, all you have done is get yourself into a teenage snit over the fact that you didnt get the answer you wanted.

Simply stated, get over it. This is NOT about you.
It is about defenseless animals that cannot speak for themselves and the people who try to make their lives better, rather than using them for some sort of personal satisfaction of hedonistic fulfillment.


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## keelie

But that is just it, I didn't get the advice I was looking for until I had to as she put it "Pull Teeth" The correct answer, in a nice way, and all in one post was provided later by another individual which gave me all that I needed and that should have been it. However I felt insulted by not only the replies, especially from her in this post but also because this was brought over into other posts that I have been active in. I was followed or stalked rather all over the forum so why should I have not the right to spill my feelings down to try and stop her in her tracks. I don't like spit, spaz or blood all over my posts and that is all that has been happening.



> Ok I agree with both sides here. lilspaz you're not really helping here out here and you are not giving here the information she needs and you're not getting what she is trying to say. She is saying SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BREED THE WRONG WAY AND WANTS TO DO IT RIGHT AND NEEDS GOOD INFO SO SHE CAN DO IT RIGHT. Keelie correct me if Im wrong.


Ok so apprently ambernd is one of the few people that can actually see and understand this. But yet even with the right words clearly before everyone, there still seems need to confront this situation with opposition and anger!

And DFW_Rat_Luvr, I'm not even going to quote you, I don't feel anything you posted was at all related or even knowledgeable considering the previous replies to this trend. Obviously you have not been reading any of this and just decided to jump in. The only thing I could tell you is that I love who I am and that you have no idea who I am or how I think. So I don't think it is your place to be bringing up a physicological battle here


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## Kimmiekins

Ambernd: If Keelie is looking to be advised on proper breeding, she already has a few times (at least) in this thread. But here it is again:

If you want to breed ethnically, you will need to mentor under an *established* (and generally well-respected, a member of rat organizations, who is registered with the NARR, etc) breeder who has been breeding for a good number of years. You will need to study genetics during this time. After learning all you can learn (generally after a few years), you will purchase a pair of breeder rats from the breeder and begin your rattery. At this point, you will adopt out your own rats. There should never be a reason for an ethical breeder to sell or give rats to a pet shop.

Anything involving breeding feeder rats, rats with unknown backgrounds, etc is NOT acceptable as responsible breeding in the rat community. There are too many unwanted rats in rescues and shelters across the country, many of whom are the result of poor breeding/breeding by those who didn't know what they were doing. Most rat lovers support rat rescue and to encourage people to breed rats with unknown genetics is a severe conflict of interest.

An FYI before I finish this post: There were no "incorrect" answers anywhere before you posted that long post. Your questions had been answered. As far as I could tell (and no mods stepped in, either), none one had disrespected you in any way. I'm confused as to why you're so angry. Rat fanciers/lovers do NOT, generally, encourage breeding by non-established breeders, especially when those rats have questionable or unknown backgrounds. The whys have been answered at least a few times in this thread already. A lot of good information was given on the first page. The more in-depth questions about genetics will be answered out when (if) you decide to become an ethical breeder by your mentor.


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## keelie

I'm not about to go back and track through all the replies spaz has left me in ALL MY POSTS ever made on this forum, since again I was followed EVERYWHERE and that fact alone added to my obvious resentment. Yes my questions were answered but nothing like what you kimmiekins or what some of the others have posted. Those were the real posts I was looking for. People who really know what they are talking about, not ones that are to lazy to give me the whole story or don't know. I was looking to become a breeder and at the time didn't understand the whole issue. I didn't need people shouting NO DON"T DO THAT without reasoning behind it. Why should I listen to people who just random say NO if they can't explain.. This is why the topic spill over several posts in the first place until I had to "PULL TEETH" to finally get what I wanted. Then real informative people who actually sound professional decided to chip in and respond with posts that I was looking for in the first place. The rest of this has been a result from my fed up anger and now I'm going to set the records straight instead of being made to look like an idiot by being put down. I'd rather look like an idiot trying to defend myself!


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## Rodere

Well, here some emotion and opinion for you... since my first post lacked it.

I didn't reply that way because I was trying to be nice. Frankly, I just don't agree with you at all, particularly about spaying and neutering. Do you know how many dogs I've seen at work with cancer, tumors, pyometria? We have had 3 dogs die of pyometria in the last year because their owners felt it was 'cruel' to fix them. Surgery would have saved them. A male, at 9 years old, has horrible hernias on either side of his anus but his owners won't have him fixed and the hernias repaired. Eventually his organs may come through the hole where the hernia is and kill him. How is spaying and neutering cruel in the face of that?

I just don't get that..



> Ok well I believe that yes rats do want to bred repeatively... if they didn't then they wouldn't.


So, by your logic, if a woman didn't want to have children, she wouldn't ovulate? Or if a girl is raped by her father, her egg won't be fertilized because she doesn't want to be pregnant? Or a beagle won't go into heat when stuck in her tiny cage by her breeder-owner, so that she won't have to be bred again? They have no control over it. People do it for pleasure, some wales do it for pleasure, dolphins do. As much as cats scream during mating and as hard as the female rats try to get away from the males, I don't see how they can 'not' breed repeatedly just because they don't want to.

It's like sticking you in a room with a sex driven man. Sex won't happen, ever, at all, if you don't want it to. And thus you'll never have kids, if you don't want to. And he won't force you either, even if you prance around in sexy lingerie. 

It just doesn't make sense to me.


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## Poppyseed

In lilspazz's defense, she posts pretty much everywhere on everyone's post.

I think no one should post in this again until a mod comes and locks it.


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## keelie

How could you have read that far into that topic. The information was very basic there but you go into talking about rape and everything else. There is no need to even mention that and I won't even let my fiance see that if I can help it or she will let you know a thing or two, trust me.

Look mating in a cage is no different from wild animals. It happens because they want it to happen, not because they are thinking about litters. The same thing can be said about humans. We have accidents to and have kids too. Why am I even talking about this? This topic to me seems to stupid for words.

AND In my own defense Poppyseeds. I don't post in everyones posts. IN FACT the only TRENDS I have EVER replied to in this forum are MY OWN!!!!!!

You guys seem to come up with so much bull that was either already said, didn't need to be said, said without reading, or just simply come up with complete and utter false statements when in reality, all I see is a bunch of people defending a very highly active member on this site and it can be so easy since the INFORMATION THAT WAS ASKED FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE if carried out was so against your beliefs that you just can't help but spit while you talk.


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr

keelie said:


> physicological


What is physicological? Im sorry - but I do not know that word.

and for someone who isnt going to quote or respond, you certainly said a mouthful.

I HAVE been reading this THREAD (not trend) as well as the others you have posted. It seems blatantly obvious that you and your other half are only on here to stir things up. Oh, I admit that at first it SEEMED that you had some valid questions....but then after reading other posts in different threads and how your responses were worded and the sharpness and jabbiness of them, it was pretty easy to discern that your presence here is not honorable - your presence here seems to thrive upon stirring up the members. This, I do not understand. Personally, I have way too many things to do than to contribute such an inordinate amt. of time for the purpose of annoying and jabbing at other people that I dont even know. Obviously, this is not the case with you.

Ive only been a member here a short while. However, in that short while I have witnessed many questions being asked and much wonderful advice being given in return. THAT is what the forum is for, IMO. Since it is obvious that you are not interested in that, I am going to employ some free will and be done. I will not read your posts, nor will I respond to them.
My time is too valuable to be wasted, and I am simply going to get back to what was my agenda to begin with....which is learning as much as I can from the wonderful resource that this forum truly is.

Good bye and good luck.


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## Poppyseed

I was saying Lilspazz posts in everyones posts. So she is not stalking you, she just is everywhere. Way to read things the wrong way, which is exactly what you have been doing this whole time  Maybe anger management classes are in order?


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## keelie

No anger management is not needed. Not that I wouldn't mind punching a few people right now but that is besides the point. The point is that all my posts would have been very valid and had been answered correctly without problems if it was not for a few people.

If you have noticed, this has been dragged way to far from it's original topic, and you all have managed to take your spiteful remarks and comments about other topics to other *threads* .. But like I said, you all fail to realize this and continue to bite your thumb at me with either saying your spiteful words such as what you did DFW with your word usage to correct my spelling.. Or perhaps even the anger mangement classes. Sure these are little compared to what could be said, but you must understand, you are still looking down upon me, and have been since the you all first posted. The fact is that you feel you can throw your weight around because your a verteran member and have friends here that will back you up like what has obviously happened.

The fact is that I feel you are all this way for a reason, that you are spiteful in everything you reply with, not because your immature but because you all use it as a way to feel better about yourself. While you use rats to fill the empty void left by either the isolation from society or worse rejection, mine are simply my roommates.

I no longer need to share my interests, my intentions or my questions with people such as yourselves who obviously have no respect for the uneducated and thus you all obviously don't have good people skills.

It no longer matters if I am wanted or not on these forums, the fact is that I have found a select few individuals that have lowered my expectations of this site and I really wish I could speak to more highly educated individuals that can actually communicate with us rather then be so spiteful.

I will take my rat love somewhere else to a new and hopefully better community where my ideas and thoughts can be appreciated or at least talked about maturely. 

With that said, how I really feel about you all may or may not have already been stated, but just to reassure, I would love to throw a snake into your house if I could... not to eat your rats because it would be big enough to eat you and I would not feel any sympathy for the loss of an individual that degrades society. 

Mean and nasty is something I can be, these words that I have shared with you here are hardly that. I may want to punch half of you in the face but that does not mean I'll go out of my way to do it even if you were across the street. My anger to you only is conceived if this is how you would talk to me face to face. So don't feel that you all have upset me that much.

Perhaps you all should re-read some of the posts after realizing what degrading actually is to see if you could possibly put you self in my shoes and feel the way you all have made me feel, to understand why I have become so defensive. But I doubt you all will do this.

In a work place, it is advised to not waste your time writing a letter of your resignation because you wouldn't be leaving if they actually listened to you in the first place.... That is basically the same thing behind this story but let's face it, we are all irrational sometimes.

To put it simply, if you could have just looked past this original post and have taken us for who we are in real life, you would have seen that we are loving and caring individuals to those who need it or deserve it. We love our rats and treat them well, we give them what they can and they are quite spoiled, maybe the door got closed on their tail one to many times but they love us too, they can't wait to interact with us. However, our rat love is not deserving of this community and maybe it's not the community itself but just the few that have decided to post their spiteful words and I'm sorry that this affects an entire community.

Some may view it as no loss to lose one person out of how ever many but I really wish you knew the love and commitment we could have offered your community. 

But there is no longer a reason to go into this. I've finished my farewell speech.

So good luck, 
God Bless your Rats
I'm sure at least they are treated well!
If not... commit suicide


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## Lesath

Poppyseed said:


> I think no one should post in this again until a mod comes and locks it.


I think that's the best idea I've heard all day. :? This thread has a lot of hateful and hurtful words in it... death threats?? Seriously?? What a world. 8O


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## AlexzRose

LMFAO @ keelie

I'm glad you're done now. This thread just kept getting more and more ridiculous. You threw a fit because you were told the truth and not what you WANTED to hear. Get over it.


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## keelie

I've decided to give this community one last shot. I will enter in upon a new name so perhaps this post won't tarnish everything. I still don't understand the things you all have to say. I mean I have obviously accepted that they can't be bread and that the reasons were valid, I even gave my appreciation on some of the information that was provided. But yet there is yet another arguement that this was all because it was about what I didn't want to hear...

So in one last defensive stance and hopefully it will be enough to get you all off my back or at least see things from how I see it.

So here is my point of view...

Quote from lilspaz68


> If you continue on this path you will be considered a backyard breeder and they are the lowest of the low in the rat world.


I felt this statement was a little unfair. It felt it was demeaning towards me as if I had already started breeding. I stated in my post that I was only looking for information, making sure I knew of the possible outcomes before I decided to venture into breeding. Sure I understand that I shouldn't breed my rats but there was no need to insult my intelligence simply because I want to learn about rat breeding.

Quote from Me


> I guess I'll dump the breeding idea then. I think I'm going to build a split cage now instead, females on one side, males on the other. Stick a roasted peanut inbetween the bars and see which side wins


Quote from Forensic


> Wouldn't suggest it... rats can and will breed through cage bars.


Ok it was a bad idea, but I just posted what came to me at first. And it was not the reply that made it was a bad idea, it was that someone else was right about it being cruel to the animals because they could see what they could never have.. which MIGHT be up for debate but I'll consent to that one.

Quote from Me


> I'll double up the wall then with a tiny space inbetween. Remember, I'm making the cage so unless one of the males is a good shot, I'm pretty sure I'll have it covered.


Quote from Forensic


> The bigger the space the better.
> 
> In fact it'd be best to neuter the boys and/or spay the girls.
> 
> And no more putting them together while cleaning the cage!


Ok still on the bad idea there, but why was there a reason to throw in there the space as if I'm not smart enough to know, being helpful at least and informative, ok what ever.

Quote from Me


> I couldn't neuter or spay an animal. I feel it's cruel


Quote from Forensic


> Then I'd suggest keeping them in completely separate cages, maybe even in separate rooms.


Ok then what would have been the point of seperating them in the cage in the first place if I was going to spay or neuter?

Quote from Me


> they are smart, but not that smart, the last time Van tried to scape, I found him stuck to the ceiling.... at least I guess he was trying to escape.. He somehow lodged his toenails inbetween the connection point of the bars


Quote from Forensic


> I think you'd be surprised... people have had rats get out of their cage, across the room, into the other cage and get pregnant... it happens.


Ok why am I still being nit-picked at? Ok sure it's possible but so is anything in this world, you are talking about unlikely events or mistrusting my ability to keep them in a cage and out of another. Why are we still talking about this?

Quote from *TWITCH*


> but i am curious as to your reasoning why you believe it is cruel to have yours rats altered. is it because you cannot ask them if it is something they want or something else?
> 
> i also recommend that you try to separate the males and females more. or at least when making the cage make sure that the partition between the two genders is made of something solid and the wire for the other walls to be made of a fine and strong mesh. i had 2 surprise litters back to back and they were more trouble then there worth. you do not want that headache and heartache.


Ok honest questions but I still feel that it is going off topic. I really don't like explaining why I think it is cruel. They are my beliefs. I wouldn't ever want that to happen to me. Cutting that off is cutting off the possible future of my line. I couldn't do that to any being unless that being wanted to cut off his line. I believe in being reborn, but you are reborn in your children. This is why the protection and upbringing of our children mean so much, because they are made up of two combined souls to make up a new one. I will live on through my children and their children. If my rats die then they will cease to exist. I can only do that with their consent. 

Yes my real reasons of having them sold of a pet store are invalid. It's only a possibility if to many rats were born, I had no idea how many rats were in a litter. This was one of the things I wanted to ask on the forum. What I stated about the store is true, the demand for them and the knowledgable people there. But the real reason is because of what I believe in and how much I care about my rats. I hate explaining this to people since it is not a widely accepted belief.

Quote from Poppyseed


> Hrm, I don't understand why spaying your rats is cruel


Again your nit-picking me about the same thing...

Quote from LilSpaz68


> So can the rats talk to you and tell you they want to be bred repeatedly over and over again? By your logic you are still making that decision for them.


Your still nit-picking this... WHY? Is it that important to get what you forced out of me?



> I was seriously thinking you were not for real and were a troll sent in here from a snake forum to rile up the Crazy Rat Lovers.


Yes, that is exactly what I showed from the very beginning....

Quote from LilSpaz68


> oh no, I normally do not take part in flaming. Read a few posts in this section for how others normally take care of those asking these type of questions. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer.


So you picked me out of all people to go after.... why.... 

Quote from DFW_Rat_Luvr


> hate is a strong word. any mature individual realizes that to hate a person that you do not even know is impossible. Psychologically speaking, you hate the fact that what is being said is bringing out characteristics within yourself that even you are not comfortable with.


Yes thank you, however, I think I am entitled to say what I hate and what I don't hate. I don't think you can read my mind or talk for me since you were not even involved in the argument...

Quote from DFW_Rat_Luvr


> You hope a train falls on her - my 6 year old said something similar to one of her little playmates just last week.
> 
> cute.


Your really not satisifed until you look as far down at me as possible... And again, still an arguement that didn't involve you...

Quote from Rodere


> So, by your logic, if a woman didn't want to have children, she wouldn't ovulate? Or if a girl is raped by her father, her egg won't be fertilized because she doesn't want to be pregnant? Or a beagle won't go into heat when stuck in her tiny cage by her breeder-owner, so that she won't have to be bred again? They have no control over it. People do it for pleasure, some wales do it for pleasure, dolphins do. As much as cats scream during mating and as hard as the female rats try to get away from the males, I don't see how they can 'not' breed repeatedly just because they don't want to.
> 
> It's like sticking you in a room with a sex driven man. Sex won't happen, ever, at all, if you don't want it to. And thus you'll never have kids, if you don't want to. And he won't force you either, even if you prance around in sexy lingerie.


Why are we still talking about this again?? I really did state that I didn't want to go into it..... 

Quote from DFW_Rat_Luver


> What is physicological? Im sorry - but I do not know that word.


What did I ever do to you??

Quote from Alexrose


> You threw a fit because you were told the truth and not what you WANTED to hear.


Ok again, I think I already conceeded to the idea to NOT breed rats and that the answers were acceptable.. So why are the rest of my posts blamed on what I don't want to hear?.. Does nobody read the whole Tread.

Quote from Ferensic


> Stealing food from her mouth wouldn't break her back leg, though.


Seriously were you there? And thanks for following me into another Trend just to harass me there.

Quote from Ferensic


> Right. So, in other words, you're just here to be annoying. Hrm.


I'm glad you can take a joke so well. I thought it was funny that you thought I was serious... It was my sort of revenge for you sitting there refreshing the stupid website and waiting for me to post a comment in ANY of my trends.... But yeah thanks for taking it so well.

Quote from Forensic


> Well, it would mean that all the posts you've made about a 25 lb rat would be worthless. Wink
> Heck, I was starting to wonder if you'd painted a Gambian. Laughing


Thanks for nit-picking...

Quote from AlexzRose


> Neuter. Neuter. Neuter.
> 
> I'm sure your rat's ego will be fine. *eye roll*


This reply really goes to like 10 others as well from like only 3 people... I'm so glad you all understand our rats aggression better then we do. I'm so happy that the answer is Neuter despite the fact that I've stated this is not what I want to do and don't believe in it.. but apprently that is not good enough... Apprently what I believe in has to be explained first.. or maybe doesn't matter all together.. I guess you just know our rats from over the internet better then we do... *thumbs up*

Quote from LilSpaz68


> I also have some rats that died without proper care and knowlege in my past. I will always feel badly for them, but there were no exotic vets available when I was younger and I didn't have the internet.
> 
> Just some comments to think about pertaining to your past rats.
> 
> Rat 1
> In the future remember that if you can see the buggies its most likely lice. Mites are almost always microscopic, and mites are also inside all our rats and a stressed/unwell rat may have a flare up. There are really only 2 recommeded treatments for external parasites. Ivermectin and Revolution. I prefer Revolution for its ease of use and how fast it gives relief.
> OTC products are highly discouraged as you know now. Some supposedly safe things at a petstore can kill. Sad
> 
> Rat 2
> Pine bedding will not kill your rat...right away. The excessive porphyrin (red fluid from eyes and nose) were probably a sign of a URI. Did these rats have any other symptom of illness? Rough fur, hunched posture, lethargy, excessive sneezing, trouble breathing (wheezing, rattling, gurgling, chirping?). Pine phenols will cause long-term damage and for rats with sensitive respiratory systems will often cause a problem.
> 
> Rat 3
> This rexy girl probably had a heart attack or a stroke and died. She was older, and she would've shown signs of poisoning if the lubricant contained something toxic. Often rats will take a small nibble of something over months since this is an instinct for survival in a wild rat. A small bite and wait to see if they get sick.
> 
> Rat 4
> Sounds like this little boy was sick already...loss of weight and not cleaning himself. It could've been an inner ear infection or something similar esepcially with the falling over and seizures.
> 
> Rats are "On the Job Training" but we have to take each situation (sad or not) and learn for the benefit of our future rats. :heart:


THIS IS MY FAVORITE.. I haven't responded how I would like to on this one yet but here is my oppertunity.. and again thank you for following me yet to another trend of mine...

You have no right to nit-pick why my rats died, and what I SHOULD have done based on your beliefs of what happened because ****, you would know... you were there.... RIGHT???? I kind of figured you wouldn't do anything there, considering the post was a TRIBUTE to these rats but thanks for dirting it up with your version of each story, and what I should have gotten from it in the first place to prevent their deaths and what I should think about... Are you kidding?? Honestly were you there? I could go back and FIGHT every single version of the story that you came up with because there are even FALSE statements such as Rat 4 not cleaning herself.... but there is no point since this is just a bunch of BULL!!!

Quote from Ferensic


> I don't believe there's any such thing as a mite that doesn't like at the least in the hair's follicle. They sound like bird lice to me. Confused


THANK YOU FOR NIT-PICKING

Quote from *TWITCH*


> all that being said it wasn't really the purpose of this thread to debate causes of illnesses, if that were the case it would have been under the health section.


OMG HE"S RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! But thanks for brining your frustration with you as you FOLLOWED ME AROUND THE FORUMS FERENSIC!!!!!!

I don't need to go on... good day!


----------



## AlexzRose

OMFG.. Maybe it's just me but I think that it says something about YOU when all your threads end up with you fighting with EVERYONE.

You dont believe in spaying and neutering? That makes no sense. So you dont even believe in fixing dogs or cats? Wow.


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## twitch

ok, people need to take a breath before this thread continues. i will lock this thread for one week. i will then open the topic for discussion once again, if by that time people have calmed their emotions i will leave the topic unlocked. however if it starts with yelling and telling people you hate them again i will lock it back up permanently. please take a moment to breathe.


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## twitch

when i made the above comment i was not yet able to read past page 3. after reading page 4 there are some things that need to be said and i would also like everyone to know that this thread is PERMANENTLY locked. it has gone too far out of hand to be salvaged as is. if you want to discuss the topics of ethically breeding, ethics of spaying/neutering and genetics a new topic can be made for them. 

to the general populace: 

for the most part and certainly within the first 2 pages i would like to commend you for your patience and careful wording. though the OP may not have seen it you did conduct yourself well and did answer the question presented. the thread did evolve to the point that other issues were discussed but the original question was answered in a fair manner before the evolution got underway in earnest.

however, beginning in page 3 things started to go sour and though many of you conducted yourself well in your response had you not responded to aggression with aggression things would not have degraded so far. i know that it is hard not to reply to a attack on your character, i know it is hard not to reply to a general attack on the whole forum with aggression back. but when people were mentioning that thread be locked someone should have notified the mods for their attention. 

keelie: 

no one was attacking you personally until you made the first attack, and even then no one called you names, or claimed you to be incapable of taking care of your rats. your outburst was uncalled for and was in volition of rule 1b: Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users.

your original question was answered in a number of different ways. some were neutral, like rodere's while others had a bit more flavor of opinion none were attacking you directly. 

you seem to have issue with people not reading all your thread or not understanding it all while you are guilty of the very same thing you claim everyone else to be. a good rule of thumb when posting in easily aggravated threads is when you have a burst of emotion after reading something is to get up, get a snack/use the washroom/whatever then come back and READ THE POST AGAIN. when replying to it make reference to it before submitting the post. this way you have given yourself to calm down and have made sure that you have not missed anything or misinterpreted anything. 

you are also in violation of rules 1p: Posting a suicide note (any post stating that you intend to leave the site because you are unhappy with our policies/administration; ie, "You guys are mean, I'm taking my ball and going home") will result in your immediate banning. We assume that since you are leaving, you will no longer need access to your account anyway.
and 1q: "I'm back" posts are considered the opposite of "Suicide" / "I'm leaving" posts. as you can see i can ban you immediately now. i do not need to be giving any warnings. however, i believe in second chances and this is yours. i suggest you read the forum rules and from now on, when posting remember that its not all about you and that discussions evolve. try to keep your tongue as well as the other members here have today. trust me they can and have been a lot worse in the past. they have had the opportunity of a warning and so i extend the same consideration to you. 

finally, please understand, that by bringing in quotes from other threads you have made me get involved in them as well. i may need to talk to you again if i find issue within them. hopefully that won't be the case but i think it only fair to notify you that your actions for the next little while are going to be more closely watched.

if anyone has any issue with my decisions or anything that i have said you are welcome to PM me or if you feel i have been unfair you may also contact ratman (the site's admin) via PM


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