# Snakes vs. Rats



## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

So this discussion started in a different thread and I'd thought I'd continue it here because I find it interesting. Remember this is a hot button issue so let's keep the discussion respectful!

The question is this: how do you feel about snake owners feeding rats and mice to their snakes? Does it make a difference to you how it is done?

For me personally, I have a moral issue with owning a pet snake. I feel, for most pets, that if they are unable to love or have a bond with their owners, that it is detrimental to the animal to be caged. On top of that, snakes are far more purely "aesthetic" pets - they can't love you, or learn tricks. They don't have any form of metacognition. Regardless of what they do in the wild, I think it's wrong to kill an innocent, thinking, loving being to feed what doesn't amount to much more than a machine in my mind - whether the rat is frozen or live, a "pet" rat or a "feeder" rat, makes no difference to me. They still could have had a pleasant fulfilling life and had a connection with their human.

I'm not sure how I feel about rescued snakes. Personally I feel that if they had to be fed rats or mice to survive I would not rescue it. To me they're close to the same level as bugs...I just don't see them as thinking feeling animals. Of course I would never purposefully hurt one or go out of my way to kill one, I just don't know that I would go out of my way to save one either.

I understand that some people feel affection for their snakes and I'm not trying to minimize that. I just don't think that it's a mutually beneficial relationship and I feel that rats would appreciate your love much more.

Btw just to get this out of the way - I am vegetarian and I do have a moral problem with feeding myself or any animal meat, especially if it comes from a mammal or bird. I don't have a problem with my rats or dogs eating insects or animal byproducts.


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## VioletRooster (Apr 11, 2008)

My son has two snakes (okay one of them is partly mine...) and it is interesting for me being a rat-aholic AND a vegetarian! Whether or not the snakes can bond with the owner, the owner can bond with the snakes, and that's the important part! Now my son only feeds frozen mice to the snakes, and he buys them and feeds them... I tried to buy them once and almost cried and puked at the same time!!! So the buying/feeding is his department!

My son LOVES his snakes dearly... I know many owners who do, and the snakes he has are really rather nice. SO I guess while personally it is hard for me, I don't have an issue with frozen feeders.

NOw one of my rescue rats was given to an 8ft boa who wouldn't eat him, just messed with him! I can never see that as okay, even the feeding part! The trauma the live rats must feel... so sad! My rescue boy is still rather timid, especially if he feels cornered. 

But when it all comes down to it... to each his own, as long as there's no suffering or torture involved... (Which I do have to say I can't believe that there is no suffering for feeders before they're frozen... I can't imagine they live in good conditions... so sad...)


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

With the feeders, I am sure they suffer before they die, as well as the fact they never get the chance to live their one and only life in any sort of happy or fulfilling way. Also, freezing is a terrible way to die. Would you want to die slowly of hypothermia as your limbs eventually became extremely painful and then numb? That's why I still have a problem with it. I ALMOST prefer live feeders because at least that is "natural" and they have some sort of a chance.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

I was in that conversation. My responses were totally to get the person who originally posted off the hook. I couldn't feed a snake a mouse or rat because it's a being that feels pain and they have such personality but snakes DO eat rats in nature and if that's how God (sorry if you don't believe in God) meant it to be then it's going to be. But I wont be the one that goes and throws a living, breathing animal with such character in with a snake so it can be a scared snack. I'm sure there are other things to feed them. At the other end of the spectrum, if we save every rat out there we would be swimming in unwanted rats in our homes and other places that they just aren't welcome to be chewing and that's not good either. Think of all the back yard breeders, reputable breeders, pet stores, etc that are creating more rats daily...and most aren't about to get homes even as feeders and that itself is sad. The die of having babies too early or just plain alone in those tanks at the sorry ass pet stores that don't give a CRAP about them and then they go and breed more to replace the dead. Either side of the fence you sit on there are good reasons behind the feelings.


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## Brizzle (Mar 26, 2008)

I love snakes. I have 3 and they're all very friendly. They may not bond with their owners as other animals may, but they still get comfortable around you. My favorite snake will actually go to sleep next to my boyfriend and loves to rub his head on his facial hair. It is the cutest thing ever.
As to feeding, I buy frozen mice. And they don't have this long freezing process. They actually flash freeze them, so it is over quickly. Also, feeding live mice could harm the snake. You don't know if they are carrying any diseases or if they will bite your snake. I just treat the frozen mice like food, and that's it. I don't make myself get upset over it. It may seem cold to some people here, but that's how I look at it.


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## Crims (Apr 30, 2008)

deleted- sorry, new here, didn't mean to offend anyone.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

Girl, the other pic was better....that snake was a ball of blood with it's guts hanging out. That rat is a snake killing MACHINE, lol. Get em rattie so I don't gotta see em, haha. I don't really like snakes for some reason. I wont avoid them in general but I wont touch them either, lmao


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## Crims (Apr 30, 2008)

Kellye said:


> Girl, the other pic was better....that snake was a ball of blood with it's guts hanging out. That rat is a snake killing MACHINE, lol. Get em rattie so I don't gotta see em, haha. I don't really like snakes for some reason. I wont avoid them in general but I wont touch them either, lmao


I know its a better pic, but i thought i'd post the PG rated pic in the general section and let them find the other pic later :lol:


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

First off, I was heavily involved in that conversation and my issue was never with whether or not people feed their snakes rats. My issue was entirely with the people discussing it on a forum dedicated to _pet rats_. It's insensitive and in bad taste, and completely unacceptable.

Now, onto the rest of your question. I volunteer and foster for an exotic animal rescue that takes in quite a few reptiles, as well as volunteering at my local zoo which maintains a large reptile population. I've fed frozen, pre-killed mice and rats to snakes before. ****, last summer I even sorted through over 300 frozen rats, mice and pinkies, all of which were either albino, beige hooded, or black hooded. Guess what my three girls are? Did it bother me? A little. Would I deny a snake a meal because of it? Absolutely not.

I have no problem with feeding humanely killed (and by that, I mean CO2 asphyxiation or in the case of pinkies, swift dislocation of the vertebrae from the base of the neck) mice and rats to snakes.

My issue comes in with wild-caught snakes. In my opinion, any animal that cannot adapt to a domesticated diet is not a pet, and should not be kept as one. If it can't eat pre-killed food, it's feral. Release it back into the wild. If it's got some sort of deblilitating injury that'll mean it suffers and eventually dies if left to fend for itself, then euthanize it. For all you "it's NATURAL" live feeders out there, guess what else is natural? Natural selection. See? It's right there in the name.

The trauma and suffering of the dozens of mice and/or rats that it takes to keep a wild-caught, feral snake alive in captivity are not worth it. It's wild, it shouldn't be in a cage, and that's final. If snakes in a zoo, where every effort has been taken to maintain them in their feral state, can adapt to a pre-killed diet, then your snake should be able to as well. And if it can't, then it's not a pet. Period. A golden retriever that refused to eat anything but live kittens wouldn't be tolerated, and I don't see why live-feeding snakes is either.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

I consider all animals to be thinking and feeling, and to have the same level of consciousness as humans. Yes, EVEN BUGS. I often rescue spiders and beetles from ultimate smash-age by my parents. I have had a snake before, and it learned trust and friendliness towards myself. It bonded like any other animal I have owned. I couldn't own one now, though, because of my attachment to my rat. It would just creep me out to be feeding my snake dead rat bodies.


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## Brizzle (Mar 26, 2008)

Crims said:


> How do you guys feel if the tables were reversed? :twisted:


Did you really have to post a picture like that? You couldn't have been more mature about this topic?


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

KayRatz said:


> I consider all animals to be thinking and feeling, and to have the same level of consciousness as humans. Yes, EVEN BUGS.


But that's not true. Studies have shown that fish don't experience physical pain. A wide variety of animals don't show any signs of sentience; meaning they're incapable of perception or thinking in terms of "I" or "me". There's a reason that the fight or flight-controlling sections of the human brain are called the "reptilian" brain. That is literally all that the less highly evolved species are capable of: "Can I eat it?" or "Can it eat me?"

So no, not all animals possess the same level of consciousness as humans. Some animals come closer to our level of self awareness than others. Dolphins, apes and parrots for a few. But reptiles and insects are evolutionarily stunted in the prehistoric age, and to suggest that their level of development is on par with us is pretty insulting to evolutionary biology, genetics and science as a whole.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

CeilingofStars said:


> Btw just to get this out of the way - I am vegetarian and I do have a moral problem with feeding myself or any animal meat, especially if it comes from a mammal or bird. I don't have a problem with my rats or dogs eating insects or animal byproducts.


I didn't see this initially, but you do realize that dogs are carnivores, right? We took wolves and domesticated them, and now they are completely incapable of fending for themselves in the wild. They're our responsibility, and part of that responsibility is a good diet. Dogs _need_ meat.



Brizzle said:


> Did you really have to post a picture like that? You couldn't have been more mature about this topic?


I agree. That was uncalled for.


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## lovinmyworm (Feb 18, 2008)

Animals need to eat right? The circle of life....... Would I feed one of my rats to a snake, no way but I have fed my friends snake a rat or two while he was out of town on business. He orders his online and they arrive pre-frozen and are killed in a humane way (since he can't purchase any pre-frozen ones around here that are killed in a nice manner the pet stores kill them and freeze them themselves). I don't believe in life feedings for several reasons. First it's dangerous for the rat and for the snake. I've seen several snakes strike and then not eat an animal. It's not pretty at all! What are you suppose to do with an injured mouse that your snake won't eat? I've also seen snakes get hurt by live feedings. Plus pet store rats or mice could carry mites that can actually really hurt your snake.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

Why don't we just let a moderator delete this topic. I can't believe it's that big of a deal but I also agree with Jules to a POINT. Snakes are wild and they aren't animals that think or get an attachment to their owners so they ARE wild and shouldn't be kept as such. I feel bad for people with Boa's and rattlers that have the venom taken out and things. It's there for a purpose...to keep it safe IN THE WILD...where it belongs. If people left them be in the first place we wouldn't even be having this kindergarden conversation.


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## Crims (Apr 30, 2008)

I apologize for posting that pic, New here from over at RMCA. And i guess i was use to a much more 'relaxed' crowd. I didn't realize this was so completely serious of an issue. 

Again my apologizes.


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

Crims, I don't see why it is. I understand there are strong feelings on feeding rats to snakes on a rat forum but I don't see why you got the rude comment. Most people won't talk to you that way here though. HUGS!


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Kellye, I think this is an interesting topic that raises moral issues that a lot of us pet-lovers have to deal with. I don't see any reason the thread should be discontinued.

Obviously I feel very strongly about the issue, and I guess my viewpoint is mostly utilitarian: why sacrifice a "better" (more caring, more intelligent, etc.) animal, or rather several, for a "lesser" one? Even in herp rescues, I don't understand this. There are many snakes and carnivores that would gladly eat kittens and puppies, yet I can't think of one person that would throw a puppy into a cage with a boa constrictor - EVEN a "humanely-killed" frozen puppy. Considering the fact that rats are nearly as intelligent as dogs, and certain rats are definitely more intelligent than certain dogs, and that they both have the mammalian capacity to feel emotion, how is it any different?


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

Is anyone else turned off of food right now to. ::makes a weird face::


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## Kellye (Apr 25, 2008)

I agree with you in that thinking...which is why I said snakes are wild and should stay that way. I just don't think fighting on the forum makes this forum look good and other people can see this forum before joining. I watched you all talk before I joined for a week because I didn't want to join a "holier than though" type forum. Thankfully this one is not like that at all...but the fighting is a bit put-offish at times.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

RoRo - actually I'm happily munching away at Chex Mix. Years of being a vegetarian has hardened my stomach. ^_^

Kellye - I think it's cool that we agree. I feel bad, because if snakes ate, like, plants, or even insects, I'd have no problem with them or keeping them as pets. I just don't think they benefit from it and I think humans could benefit just as much if not more from other kinds of pets.

I know what you mean about the "holier-than-thou" type forums. This one does seem to be much more loving. I've noticed occasional squabbles (especially when it comes to breeding issues) but it's near impossible to find a forum without them. And if you delete stuff you run the risk of it being overmoderated. Ah well, such is life.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

JulesMichy said:


> KayRatz said:
> 
> 
> > I consider all animals to be thinking and feeling, and to have the same level of consciousness as humans. Yes, EVEN BUGS.
> ...


The point I was trying to make is that I treat all living things with the same exact amount of respect. If a man came in my room and threatened to shoot my rat, I would guard her with my life. ****, I'd guard my FISH with my life. Just for the record, my bettas have shown a certain degree of personality and bonding with me. Juuust throwing that out there.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

KayRatz I agree with you...I have actually seen more personality from my stepsister's betta than from my friend's snake or my nephew's bearded dragon. The betta plays games with me.  The reptiles don't even acknowledge my presence. Why you would sacrifice a rattie for that I'll never understand.

Then again I do have limited experience with reptiles!


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

JulesMichy - 

Dogs aren't carnivores, they're omnivores. There are many dogs that can live perfectly healthy lives on all vegetarian diets. They don't even need any kind of supplements like cats do. That said, there are some that don't take it as well. I'm fine with animal byproducts because, as the name suggests, they are byproducts of the meat industry and those alone couldn't sustain it.

I did have one dog who got very sick (we don't know why) and I put her on a whole foods diet for a couple of weeks to help get her better. This involved some chicken but it was raised free range organic by my vet, and again, I think dogs are "higher up" than chickens so I will sacrifice a chicken to save a dog's life.


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## Rattiegma (Jan 23, 2008)

CeilingofStars said:


> I think dogs are "higher up" than chickens so I will sacrifice a chicken to save a dog's life.


Ok, I don't really have anything to say about this topic, but I just wanted to say something about this statement. And I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'm definitely going to have to disagree with you on this. Of course you're more than welcome to your own opinion, and I'll respect that opinion...but chickens are actually very intelligent and kind animals. I don't really see where you get that they're any less deserving of their lives than a dog is.

And btw, I'm a vegetarian as well.


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

Yet you would never sacrifice a humanly put down rat for a snake. It's a balance to life here, yeah it makes me sick to think about one animal eating another. But most of us here are guilty of eating another animal. I do not agree however, about feeding live animals to animals. Some deaths can be slow and painful. Domesticated animals do not have the same instances as wild animals, and thus bred in captivity snakes I believe lack the skills to kill off a rat with out pain. Or mouse to that matter.

And this IS a forum about rat pets, not rats for food. (or mice for that matter)

I grew up with snakes, pine, grass, boa's, and god knows what else. My dad was the guilty of feeding live mice, well up until a mouse killed mother snake. ::rolls her eyes around:: 

So I understand the snakes need to feed, we can't just FEED a snake someone stupidly decided to keep as a pet, and then probably give up once they realize, HEY this is going to be a huge fing snake.

What's worse is those idiots who put it on you tube.

... but simple over twice done....

WHY ARE YOU DISCUSSING THIS ON A PET FORUM?!


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Rattiegma - I absolutely agree that chickens are intelligent, thoughtful, beautiful creatures and it pained my heart to have to feed my baby dog any other animal. That said, that dog had been my best friend for over 11 years and had gotten me through some very low times, and she was obviously suffering with a severe illness that other vets said had only a 10-20% survival rate. My vet strongly recommended that I feed her animal protein and so with a heavy heart I made the decision to do it. It paid off because she made a full recovery within a couple of weeks. In the same vein, I would sacrifice a dog if it would save my child, which obviously does not mean that I don't view dogs' lives as worthy.

That is a VERY different situation from regularly, routinely, and guiltlessly feeding rats to a snake. Snakes can't love you, they can't comfort you any more than an inanimate object, and they derive no real pleasure from your company.

RoRo - I think I've clarified a bunch but just to repeat, from a utilitarian point of view, a rat has much more to gain from living than a snake does. If there's no reason for it to be put down other than to feed a reptile, than I think it's wrong.

And also, if you don't like the discussion, please don't read it. Maybe this would go better in The Lounge but I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to talk about it.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Honestly, if I didn't think it was wholly unhealthy for the human species, I would go all-out vegetarian. I find killing of any kind of any animal to be unacceptable.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

This is a totally different topic, KayRatz, but going vegetarian is one of the MOST beneficial lifestyle changes you could undertake. There is not a single person in this world who could not wholly subsist on a vegetarian diet (there are people who need animal protein, like eggs, so not EVERYBODY could be vegan, though). Vegetarianism reduces the risk of colorectal cancers, heart disease, and obesity. Obviously a healthy vegetarian diet can't consist solely of French fries just like a healthy omnivorous diet can't consist solely of Big Macs, but ultimately it's one of the best decisions you could make for your health.

If anybody wants to discuss that issue more feel free to open a thread in The Lounge and I'll hop over and contribute.


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

So, as I gather it, your into animal cruelty.

Why do I say that, you'd rather watch a snake slowly starve to death. Witch in case of some snakes can be several months.

And why? Because you hold rats lives more valuable. Yes, I love my rat over any snake. But I do not believe in eradicating the snake species just because there rodent eaters. No I would not.

Do I believe there should be a law preventing live feeding of rats, yes I believe there should be a law. After all we have laws protecting the pigs, cattle, chickens and everything else us humans eat.

And if you look at it rats and snakes are equal on the grounds of predatory. Rats will eat snakes, snakes will eat rats.

And no, I have a freedom to my opinion to and I choose not to back down.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

The laws protecting every single animal you listed are never enforced. Those animals are still treated with extreme cruelty in the meat manufacturing business, but it's done behind closed doors.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

RoRo...I am clearly not into animal cruelty, and your strawman argument is fallacious and frankly insulting. From our conversations you know me better than that and honestly I thought you respected me more, as I respect you.

Anyway, I do not believe that snakes should be forced to starve to death, but I don't believe that snakes should be held in captivity at all. And yes, I would rather see an extremely sick/disabled snake be euthanized than kept alive by being fed frozen rats.

Nature has no morality and we can't impose human morals onto other animals. However, just as I would try to save a human from an attacking lion, I would try to save a rodent from an attacking snake. That doesn't mean that I want to eradicate snakes - they're useful to the ecosystem and they have the right to live their lives. That doesn't mean that I find them pleasant or that I would try to rehabilitate them in captivity.

For me, predatory has nothing to do with it. Again, it's the utilitarian thing. For me, a rat eating a snake contributes to much less sadness and loss than a snake eating a rat.

As a side note, the laws that regulate livestock in the United States (and to a lesser extent, Canada and Europe) are an absolute joke. The don't protect crap, and the few rules that do exist are systematically overlooked.

RoRo I never suggested that you back down from your opinion. You said that you didn't understand why we were discussing this on a pet forum, which I took to mean that you were offended/confused/upset about the topic, and so I simply suggested that if you didn't like it, you shouldn't read it. That's all. Of course I welcome your input on the subject.


ETA: Kayratz, you beat me to it about the livestock!


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

:oints to her local news:: yes laws here are a joke, but when sh-t hits the fan. No meat company wants recalls cause they treated there cows wrong.

And why do I get so defensive, because you "utilitarian" view is frigid. Yes, snakes are best to live in the wild.

But you got to hate everything that eats rats, that INCLUDES lizards. So if you say your fine with lizards, your view is flawed. I know many of pinkies (humanly) that were fed to dragons and other lizards.

So will you include lizards, or would you force the lizard to be strictly vegetarian even thought lizards health is fickle.

We got snake owners on here, what do you say to them?


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't mind captive lizards that eat insects/mealworms/etc. If it ate mammals I would have a problem with that.

I opened this discussion to find out how snake owners reconcile loving rats with turning around and feeding them to snakes. So far it seems to me that people differentiate between THEIR pet rats and "feeders". To me there is not any difference at all but with animals in general I'm pretty empathetic. I just want to make clear that I'm not putting anyone down and I think all of this is a moral gray area with no hard fast answers; I'm just expressing the views that feel most right to me.


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## RoRo (Mar 10, 2008)

Exactly it's moral grey area, but the attitude you put out is crude and frigid. Might as well get you a sign that says death to all snakes, ::sarcastic:: the way you've been shoutin' on here.

I appreciate you expressing your views, but don't be so hard about it. I mean, do you WANT people to see you as a b-tch, or cold hearted, I do not think you want to be. 

Breathe, take a breath. Put down your anti snake and quit shoving it out so harshly...


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

CeilingofStars said:


> JulesMichy -
> 
> Dogs aren't carnivores, they're omnivores. There are many dogs that can live perfectly healthy lives on all vegetarian diets. They don't even need any kind of supplements like cats do.


No, they're not. And no, they don't. They can adapt to a vegetarian diet, but not well and not without supplements. I honestly believe anyone that tries to force their dog or cat to eat a vegetarian diet should have their animals taken away. Don't force your beliefs on an innocent animal and deny them a natural, healthy diet because YOU have hang ups about what they eat.

Dogs are carnivores. They can adapt (somewhat) to an omnivorous diet, but they are not made to digest vegetable matter and grains. Why do you think so many dogs are obese, diabetic, have kidney disease, and skin and coat issues due to food allergies? Carbs, carbs and more carbs.

Here's a good article to get you started: http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

Even Wikipedia acknowledges that dogs are carnivores.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RoRo said:


> Exactly it's moral grey area, but the attitude you put out is crude and frigid. Might as well get you a sign that says death to all snakes, ::sarcastic:: the way you've been shoutin' on here.
> 
> I appreciate you expressing your views, but don't be so hard about it. I mean, do you WANT people to see you as a b-tch, or cold hearted, I do not think you want to be.
> 
> Breathe, take a breath. Put down your anti snake and quit shoving it out so harshly...


I don't see Ceilingofstar's attitude at all RoRo, you might be reacting a bit sensitively on the matter. I myself believe snakes are tamed not domesticated and should be in the wild as much as possible.

My main issue is live-feeding and the lovely debate by snake owners that MY snake won't eat frozen. :roll: Well as a rebuttal to that, my sister volunteers at a Wildlife Centre and they often get in wild snakes who adapt beautifully to frozen food...they don't even need to "train" them. And then they get released when they are well, or if not they are sent to training facilities to educate the public.

I would prefer snakes not be kept as pets but until they aren't I will just try to educate about live-feeding. One battle at a time right? 

And a debate about this is interesting, and should be kept. Too many times it becomes a flaming party and this time we are discussing things rationally..nice change.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Jules-Michy, I quote from Wikipedia:

"There is some debate as to whether domestic dogs should be classified as omnivores or carnivores, by diet. The classification in the Order Carnivora does not necessarily mean that a dog's diet must be restricted to meat; unlike an obligate carnivore, such as the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods including vegetables and grains, and in fact dogs can consume a large proportion of these in their diet. Wild canines not only eat available plants to obtain essential amino acids, but also obtain nutrients from vegetable matter from the stomach and intestinal contents of their herbivorous prey, which they usually consume. *Domestic dogs can survive healthily on a reasonable and carefully designed vegetarian diet, particularly if eggs and milk products are included.* Some sources suggest that a dog fed on a strict vegetarian diet without L-carnitine may develop dilated cardiomyopathy,[45] however, L-carnitine is found in many nuts, seeds, beans, vegetables, fruits and whole grains. In the wild, dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet when animal prey is not available."

That article you wrote is interesting, but I have some qualms with it. Firstly, molars are specifically intended to grind food, and dogs would not need them if they just "tore and gulped" the way the article claimed. Cats are natural carnivores. Notice the difference between cat teeth:










and dog teeth:










Also, dogs have much longer intestines than true carnivores, which means that they have adapted to include plant food in their diets, much as humans have.

Finally, I find it a little insulting that you think my dogs should have been taken away from me. I have extensively researched the issue and I provided my dogs with an organic vegetarian kibble supplemented by fresh foods, and they all lived happy, healthy lives that lasted well into old age.


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## Crims (Apr 30, 2008)

Kind of playing devil's advocate here.

My argument assumes that everyone here agrees that prolonged and/or painful deaths are wrong.

Nature seems to have accepted the fact that certain animals are food for other animals. Thats why certain animals produce offspring at a much higher rate then other animals to cope with that.

Feeder rats: Most rats that get a chance at life these days would have never been born unless snake owners needed them for food. All these rats sitting in pet stores right now waiting on a snake owner to buy them would have never been given a chance at life if it wasn't for the demand. 

A short life is better then no life. 

Does this mean i'll go hug a snake? **** no. Nor will i sit there and watch it or encourage someone to buy a snake and feed rats to it. I just accepted the fact that it has happened and will happen again and I know my rats will all die of natural causes and live as long as they can.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks, lilspaz. I really don't see how I'm coming off as a bitch at all unless maybe my posts can be read in more than one way. Like I said before, I have no problem with snake owners and I understand that they love their pets. I just personally am opposed to keeping them as pets. I even "play" with my friend's boa (as much as they play!) so it's not like I'm some evil anti-snake crusader.

For me, it's similar to SUVs and other gas-guzzlers. Yeah, I have a moral problem with driving one of them. I think it's wrong. Does that mean I think we should run around destroying everyone's SUVs? Of course not! Do I dislike people that drive them? Not at all! I would just prefer that their next car be something different, which is why I speak out against it.

Similarly, I would prefer that people choose a pet that doesn't eat mammals. But I have no antipathy toward snake owners or even snakes themselves (they're just being themselves; they can't help it!). I just don't think there's any benefit at all to keeping snakes in captivity.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Crims -

That argument is often used for livestock - isn't it better that the baby cows got to live for a short while in order to become veal than to not have been born at all?

I have two counterarguments for it.

1. No. As Peter Singer said, and I agree with him, there are no animal souls sitting around waiting to be born. Why do we euthanize our pets when they're in severe distress? Wouldn't a longer life be better, even if they're in constant pain? I would argue no. If an animal is severely suffering, as I would suggest MANY rats raised as "feeders" are (due to inhumane treatment), I would think that it would be better for them not to have been born. Similarly, does that mean we should let our pet rats run wild and mate whenever they want, because then their future babies will get the chance to be born? I don't think so.

2. The debate is moot anyway. Whether or not it's better to be born into a life of suffering, the point is that that suffering shouldn't exist in the first place. Rats should be treated with the highest standard of care and allowed to live their natural lives.

Would I interfere with nature on a large scale, killing snakes willy-nilly? No, of course not. It would cause unimaginable harm to the ecosystem. Does that mean I should kill rats to feed snakes, or allow a rat to wander into harm's way? I don't think so.

This is the kind of philosophical thing I really enjoy. Thanks for the devil's advocate argument, Crims.


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## Crims (Apr 30, 2008)

Well thats why i added that little clause in there about assuming everyone agrees about painful deaths or prolonged deaths.

But i'll take this a step forward since you brought up 'living conditions'.

If you grow up in a certain environment, and never had the luxuries of electricity or running water, do you go around your whole life thinking you are an abused, neglected person?

Now we have the luxury to look at feeder rats and say thats horrible because we have provided better living conditions for our little love ones. But to those rats, they don't see it that way, to them thats life. In a twisted sense, they might actually enjoy the life they have in those conditions because they don't know any better.

Look at people in North Korea, we know they live in horrible conditions compared to us, but because of state propaganda and the fact they always lived that way (the ones that grew up within after things turned that way), they actually have the mindset that they are living the high life and we are worse off then they are. Saw that on the History Channel.

In the end, the best we can hope for is doing our little part making sure the lives around us live the best they can (humans and non humans). Discouraging those practices that are deemed horrible by not contributing to the demand for those horrible things. 

Problem is, it goes much more deeper then that.

Use lipstick? Good chances are those chemicals were at one time tested on some poor defenseless creature. Same with hair dye, cosmetics, artificial sweeteners, Cell phone radiation, animals were electrocuted to analyze the effects of electricity on humans. Everything we take for granted has the souls of some poor animal to thank for it.

At least i know my animals will never go thru that. And thats the best i can hope for.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok, I respect and honor any animal's right to live as best as I can. 

Many snakes in captivity NOW are endangered in the wild - breeders of certain species are actually releasing captive-bred back into the wild in places around the world.

Without snakes, the rodent population of the world would explode, as most of us know... And THEN, it would fall drastically and eventually level out at a reasonalble sustainable number.... And if the demand for feeders goes down, so will the population of feeders. Simple...

I own snakes. I USED to feed live rodents until I got to know a couple rats better. I really dislike mice (I have a white one that has been loose for 6 months in my house. She avoids EVERY trap and I have DOZENS. I ALMOST want to use poison, but I'd rather use something that will give her a quick painless death...) and have for a long time, but I really like rats.

With mice and rats, if I DID buy live feeders, I would use a co2 chamber to put them to sleep quietly and painlessly so they would not suffer. As it is, I buy either prekilled from someone I know who does this, or frozen online from a company who does it and keeps the animals decently cared for (tho little room, better than the other companies I've seen). 

Snakes, whether captive-bred or not, all have the same exact instincts since they cannot be domesticated (more in a moment...) - thus, the same amount of pain a rodent would be in in the wild if caught by a snake is the same in someone's home or a lab. I prefer the animal not die scared stiff or fighting for it's life, but rather just drift off to sleep.

Mammals are GROUP animals. The babies need their mothers to feed and care for them. The same with birds. But reptiles, amphibians for the most part, fish for the most part, and invertibrates don't need their mothers to care for them from either when the egg is laid OR when the egg hatches. This factor makes the animal not "bond" with us the way we would expect a "loving" animal to.

Just because an animal is NOT a mammal, and has a totally different way of thinking and living, does NOT IN ANY WAY make it a "lessor form." To me, all life is equal - if God made everything in your eyes (like I believe), then everything is for His glory and pleasure orriginally. If it's all random, then its random that you are human and they are a bug/snake/rat/bird/fish/etc....

And there are studies that show ANYTHING YOU WANT THEM TO. I've seen the studies that say fish can't feel, and yet I've seen studies that say a fetus cannot feel even at 30 weeks. Babies born at 23 weeks can feel, so why can't a "fetus" at 30 weeks? Just because a study was published doesn't mean it's correct in any way - just that the evidence leaned towards that conclusion or could be MADE to lean that way. I've seen 3 studies and worked on one myself that showed fish can feel. (High school ecology class with a big time prof at a nearby University. We never published cuz it was a training test, tho I think the guy did his own study shortly after I graduated, and he used some of the information we collected...) 

I love my animals quite a bit. Some are more just "There" for me (scorpions, the tarantulas are really decoration for me that I enjoy yet still care for as they deserve...), but my hubby really likes everything. I will NOT give up a couple snakes for moral reasons (they are "big" ones that we can care for and don't want to just throw out cuz we don't want to feed them... Nor shove them onto a rescue who can't handle more big snakes, nor is it really legal to sell them without HUGE permits anyways!). It's something that I have chosen - but it's not for everyone.

Oh, and people all over the world DO feed cats and dogs to snakes - but since they are seen as "pets" here, that's taboo. But why do people eat cats and dogs in certain places? easy food. Same with Iguanas, horses, cows, rabbits, birds, etc. Some places they are pets, other places they are food. Heck, in India and Africa, it's common to eat the meat from the giant snakes when they can be caught and killed! Meat is meat, and meat eaters need to eat meat. Some snakes can eat frogs all their lives with no problems, other just eat birds or fish. But some eat almost exclusively rodents in the wild. There are no other options.

To each their own - I see no reason to be "flaming" anyone for any reason. If you don't like it, ignore it. Like those who post just to tick people off?


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## AZratkeeper (Jan 27, 2008)

i have 10 snakes and i also own rats i LOVE the snakes just as much as i love the rats and i know alot of people who LOVE thier scaly little buddies 
i have met lizards which are as freindly as a puppy but i admit snakes do not have that sort of connection but i do think when held enough and cared for properly they will reconize you as a bringer of food and water and somtimes warmth 

and please don't post pics of snakes getting eaten or injured i love snakes.

and as for feeding i feed frozen thawed rats and mice

and just as a note alot of lizards can eat small mice or most monitors can eat small to large rats at some point in thier life


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

There are two types of molars - flat molars, and "mountainous" molars. Dogs and cats both have mountainous, or peaked molars, designed to come together for a scissor-like effect to sheer through meat.

Dogs have no lateral jaw movement, meaning they cannot chew side to side, only up and down. They cannot grind their food, which is a key feature in animals meant to eat plant matter.

Dogs have no amylase in their saliva, but they do have lysozyme - and enzyme that only animals meant to eat meat possess.

Dogs have a gastric pH of 1, which is lower than true omnivorous pH of around 1.5-2.5. 

Dogs have _short_ GI tracts, and their intestines do not have any extensive folding, villi or microvilli associated with omnivorous and herbivorous animals. Their GI tracts are designed for the sole purpose of digesting and pushing food through quickly, which is not a feature of animals meant to consume plant matter.

Wild dogs do not eat plant matter, and they DO NOT consume the stomach contents of their prey.

I'm at work right now, but I'll provide links later. You're wrong, dogs are carnivores, their bodies DO NOT utilize vegetables efficiently, ESPECIALLY grains.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

As for the large meat-eating lizards, monitor lizards and tegus SHOULD eat rodents and eggs because of the way their bodies work. THey need way more protein and calcium than just insects can provide them if they are to grow and live properly. THey don't need many, but there is the need. They also can grow to 10 feet long - you can't feed that thing on just insects. Although, you can feed them chicks and chickens, and even baby pigs... not just rats.

That's why I don't think I'll ever own one - too big, potentially dangerous, and harder to contain. A snake just has the mouth and strangling body. A 10 foot Nile Moniter has RIPPING jaws, claws, and tail. Nope. Not happening... At least for me. It's like owning an aligator.... Also, I don't think any of the LARGE meat eating lizards should really be kept as pets unless you are breeding them to propogate a species that is failing in the wild because of human activity. They just are not suited for it. Same really as the giant snakes, but I got into it before I had decided this... 

DId you know that many baby aligators are fed rats? It's easy and EXTREMELY healthy. And rats are twice as healthy as a food source than rabbits, and 2-3 times more than mice. THus, they are a big zoo staple in many places... It's a neccesity - we'd lose many to most animal species that live in zoos without their breeding programs and wild reintroductions of captive-bred individuals. Without feeders of all species (rats, pigs, cows, sheep, lizards, frogs, goats... bugs... what-have-you), we would have already lost too many species for me to even think about!


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

JulesMichy said:


> Wild dogs do not eat plant matter, and they DO NOT consume the stomach contents of their prey.


Wild wolves will on occasion eat berries, grass, things like that. Dogs are, scientifically and genetically, grey wolves. Same species. So they can definitely be compared.

Once I saw all kinds of dead and bloody rats in a vulture's cage at a zoo. Apparently the zookeepers just throw them in there with no regard as to who might get offended. It was very disgusting, but I moved on with the words "Vultures have to eat too!"


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

oops double post


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

*Crims* - regardless of whether they know anything else, shouldn't they still have a better life if it can be provided? There are children in Africa who have been orphans all their lives, starving, with AIDS, etc. etc. Just because they've never known any different, does that mean that we should be indifferent to their suffering or the fact that they could lead much more joyful and fulfilling lives? I don't think so. That's why I donate time, energy, and money to helping people and animals around the world.

For me, I am agnostic, so I am generally under the impression that the life we get on this earth is the only one we'll ever have, from a bug to a human, and that everyone should work to make sure that each individual life is as pleasant as possible. That said, I don't think that animals should be bred willy-nilly, and I do believe that ultimately we have to work for the greater good and for the *most* experience of life. Since a cat experiences a life more than fish do, and cats need animal protein to survive, it is the best option (in my view) to allow the cats to eat the fish. However, fish should be treated as humanely as possible and allowed to live to the maximum extent they can.

However, since mice and rats experience life more than snakes do, I do NOT believe that we should provide mice and rats to captive snakes. HOWEVER, because the function reptiles provide to the ecosystem ensures ALL life on the planet, wild snakes should be allowed to live and thrive.

*Buggzter* - I totally respect your position, especially because it is internally consistent. The majority of my morals are based on the "greater good" argument; however, if you believe that all life is equal in God's eyes, then I can see how you can view a snake and a rat as equal. Still, though, the fact remains that you have to sacrifice many rats to keep one snake alive, and that seems to defeat the purpose to me. Although if you believe in some kind of afterlife for animals I suppose it wouldn't be so cruel.

The issue for me is not that humans and mammals somehow "deserve" their lives more than reptiles, but rather that we *benefit* from our lives more. Think about it this way...if you put together two children, one well-fed American and one starving Indian, neither *deserves* a sandwich more. Neither of them have done anything to EARN it, per se. But the starving child *benefits* more from it, and thus he should be given the sandwich. Likewise, I believe that rats benefit more from their lives than snakes do, and so their lives should be first priority.

I don't know much about frogs or their experience of life. In my eyes they're pretty much equal as the level of snakes. Really, morally, I don't care much about that. I would like to know more though. I think frogs are cuter, though. 

*AZratkeeper* - I completely get that you love your snakes. I don't know though, for me, it would be hard to truly love a snake because it can't reciprocate. It's a bit like loving a bobblehead doll or a videogame or something...yes, it can react to you, but it doesn't care about you one way or another, so what has it done to earn your affection? That said, I don't doubt for a minute that you feel love for your snake, it's just something that I have a hard time relating to, that's all!


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

*JulesMichy*, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. As I don't own dogs now, the issue is not pressing and so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it, but the issue is certainly not settled by the scientific community so I would not be so quick to state some people's theories as facts. Regardless, my experience shows that dogs can live many long, happy years as vegetarians with no adverse health effects so regardless of your opinion I do have evidence to the contrary. Interesting discussion, though!


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Aww I just noticed I'm now a Little Fuzzy! Yay! ^_^


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Devil's advocate here, about dogs and their diets

Yes, dogs can live a vegitarian diet, but they are NATURALLY meat eaters. Wouldn't a more natural diet for any living thing be better for it? 

Example, Iguanas will eat meat if they don't really have a choice. They will grow big fast. But they will die of kidney failure at 7-8 yrs old - less than half the life span they could live. They will eat dog or cat food as well, and grow very little and likely never physically mature.

HUMANS could live on steak and potatoes and junk food (no fruits or veggies) and live, but they won't be healthy and will die younger as well and have many health issues normally before death.

ON THE OTHER HAND, many dogs out there DO live on a vegitarian diet. As long as they have the protein they need and a balance of nutrients, why not?

As well, if the animal is happy, and the life is good, why not? Humans choose what makes them happy, even if it's not good for them - it's not THAT big of a deal, right? So why is it so different with our animals? 

All you can do is decide what is best for you and your pet. Get all the info you can, and make YOUR OWN DECISION.

(I don't have and likely never will have dogs - allergies in the whole family. Thus I really don't know what's what with this subject...)


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## Magpie (Mar 30, 2008)

> For me personally, I have a moral issue with owning a pet snake. I feel, for most pets, that if they are unable to love or have a bond with their owners, that it is detrimental to the animal to be caged.


Whilst I _do_ believe that all animals, including reptiles, have the power of at least some basic thought and emotion (which is what, in my mind, defines a 'living creature', the ability to think for one's self and display and/or experience some level of emotion), I don't think that they truly share a 'bond' with their owners.

It's down to history, really. Canines, Felines, Equines and Rodents have been 'domesticated' for hundreds of years. The only excuse to keep an animal in captivity is if it considers you it's own, 'surrogate family'. You provide them with shelter, food and protection, and in return they offer their companionship and loyalty. Whilst snakes and many other reptiles on the other hand, were captured as 'show pieces'. They're far happier in the wild because they just don't experience this bond that other animals do- they simply don't need it to survive, even amongst their own kind, they have an 'every man for himself' mentality. So, with snakes, that 'two-way' partnership doesn't really work out.

Of course, this is simply my own opinion- something we're all entitled to. Please don't quote or flame me for it  Thank you.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

> Wild wolves will on occasion eat berries, grass, things like that. Dogs are, scientifically and genetically, grey wolves. Same species. So they can definitely be compared.


Wolves and wild dogs will only ever consume plant matter to use as fiber. It passes through their digestive system intact and bulks up their stools. As dogs have no lateral jaw movement, and cannot grind food, they are incapable of breaking open the cellulose cell walls of grass and other plants to obtain the nutrients inside.



CeilingofStars said:


> *JulesMichy*, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. As I don't own dogs now, the issue is not pressing and so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it, but the issue is certainly not settled by the scientific community so I would not be so quick to state some people's theories as facts. Regardless, my experience shows that dogs can live many long, happy years as vegetarians with no adverse health effects so regardless of your opinion I do have evidence to the contrary. Interesting discussion, though!


Yay for anecdotal evidence! I also love how you quote Wikipedia at me and then tuck your tail between your legs and run when I provide some hard evidence for my case instead of actually trying to refute it. And no, the scientific community is not divided over this. The physiology speaks for itself. The only dissent that exists comes from people like yourself, because you want to believe that you're not neglecting your dogs by feeding a vegetarian diet.

Now then, onto the evidence.

*This website* has a good image of what mountainous molars look like. Compare to a *human's*, which is a true omnivorous species. Humans also have lateral jaw movement, movement form side to side, to grind tough, fibrous plant matter to break through the cellulose walls. Dogs have no lateral jaw movement, and are incapable of grinding food. 

*(Dogs and cats... skulls are shaped to prevent lateral movement of the lower jaw when captured prey struggles (the mandibular fossa is deep and C-shaped); this shape permits only an up-and-down crushing motion, whereas herbivores and omnivores have flatter mandibular fossa that allows for the lateral motion necessary to grind plant matter (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 258-259.)* 

They also have no amylase in their saliva, a key feature of omnivorous and herbivorous animals. 

*"Salivary amylase is not found in carnivores," says Holly Frisby, DVM, of Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc. in Wisconsin.* 

These structural features of the mouth and jaw support the claim that dogs have evolved to eat meat and not plants.

The following quotes are taken from the world's foremost expert on wolves, L. David Mech:

*"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).*

Even if wolves did eat the stomach contents of their prey, the vegetable and plant matter found there would already be pre-digested. The canine would also be ingesting enzymes and bacteria that they themselves do not possess along with the contents that would assist in starch digestion. Without these things, dogs cannot effectively utilize foods high in starch.

*Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested.*

From Dr. Ian Billinghurst, an authority on dog diets:

*"Grains are not a natural food for dogs. Dogs do not, in fact, need carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are easily converted into sugars which feed cancer. Remove the carbs and the cancer has less/nothing to feed on."

"Grains are one of the major causes of allergies in dogs, and can also cause flatulence."*

So, the consensus is that dogs cannot obtain nutrients from vegetables for themselves without extensive processing (cooking, pureeing, or otherwise manually breaking down the cell walls) beforehand. And while they can obtain nutrition from processed plant material, it is harder on their system, taxes their kidneys, and leads to obesity and food allergies. 

Can some dogs do well on a vegetarian diet? Maybe. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. Human ideas of morality and ethics shouldn't be imposed on an animal that has no concept of them or need for them. You want a dog, you **** well better feed it meat. Otherwise, it's selfish in the extreme to get an animal whose needs you have no intention of meeting.


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## AZratkeeper (Jan 27, 2008)

> 10 foot Nile Moniter has RIPPING jaws, claws, and tail. Nope. Not happening... At least for me. It's like owning an aligator.... Also, I don't think any of the LARGE meat eating lizards should really be kept as pets unless you are breeding them to propogate a species that is failing in the wild


even thoe i have met niles that are nicer then alot of dogs cats and humans that i have met and that for a fact nile monitors are as smart as a three to four year old human child 
and i have met gators that will tallerate humans 

and tegus only get 3-4 feet unless your dealing with a choacan gaint tegu
and tegus are often considerd smarter then niles 

monitor lizards are some of the smartest herps alive i have met them and dealt with them thier wonderful creatures and somtimes even loving and cuddly 

i am very defensive of herps and rats and most living creatures


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

Buggzter said:


> Devil's advocate here, about dogs and their diets
> 
> Yes, dogs can live a vegitarian diet, but they are NATURALLY meat eaters. Wouldn't a more natural diet for any living thing be better for it?
> 
> Example, Iguanas will eat meat if they don't really have a choice. They will grow big fast. But they will die of kidney failure at 7-8 yrs old - less than half the life span they could live. They will eat dog or cat food as well, and grow very little and likely never physically mature.


Yes! THIS.

Just because you _can_ doesn't mean you _should_.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

AZratkeeper said:


> even thoe i have met niles that are nicer then alot of dogs cats and humans that i have met and that for a fact nile monitors are as smart as a three to four year old human child
> and i have met gators that will tallerate humans
> 
> ...i am very defensive of herps and rats and most living creatures


I very much agree. It just takes alot of work to get such naturally agressive animals to be tame and tollerant, and I don't want to do that when i can better spend my time with my 2 year old playing with OTHER animals, like RATS! I'll deal with my burm, but that's because I previously had made that commitment before I knew ratties... And I'm very defensive myself of my animals as well as others' - the biggest issue is they are just not understood. 

And with most mammals, the only reason they are vicious is because they are taught to be. With most reptiles, you have to teach them the opposite - that humans are OK or even desirable!  It is just their nature.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

*JulesMichy* I declined to further the discussion with you because this is not the appropriate thread. I've opened a new thread in The Lounge and responded to your most recent post there.


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

Not seeing it.


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Sorry just posted it! Took forever to format, haha.


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## Emster (Dec 9, 2007)

Okay so I haven't completely read this post yet - I intend to in a minute.

I recently watched on YouTube of a snake killing and eating a live rat..and to say the least it scared the heck out of me as well as made me feel so bad for that poor rat. I know every animal has to live and eat, but I really don't like snakes and find them as pointless a pet as a rock.
A few years back when I did work experience at school, I went to a pet shop, I thought this place was great, until one day I went in and found out that one of the rats for sale had given birth! No-one really knew what to do, so we wanted for the shop owners son to come in...he came...stuck his hand in the nest, took all the babies out and shoved them in the freezer  I feel so terrible about it now. I wish I had stepped forward and said that I'd have taken the mum and eepers.

I don't really know where this post is going, but I ust wanted to add my story and two cents.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Since I kind of started this with my comments about my "feeders", I wrote a rather long post earlier today. Before I could put it up, tho, the computer fritzed and it disappeared into the world wide hole. 

However, I see that most of what I was saying has been said, so I'm not going to clutter the thread by repeating it.

One comment did catch me, tho, about snakes always being able to be "trained" to eat frozen. It's simply not true. SOME snakes can be converted. Young, captive-bred snakes started early can almost always be converted.

However, most of our snakes were other peoples' cast-offs, and many of them were wild-caught adults who had eaten live prey their whole lives. Converting them to frozen would have meant holding their heads, prying open their mouths, and forcing the prey down their throats with forceps, hoping they wouldn't regurgitate it immediately or later, necessitating another round of forced feeding. And we're talking about 9 and 12 foot specimens.

Now, replace "python" or "boa" with "rat", and see how you feel about stuffing an unnatural food item down their throat by force, risking rupture of their digestive tract and possibly fatal stress.

I have never pretended my "feeder" rats were any different than my "pet" rats. They were as intelligent, personable and clever as any pet rat, and the majority of them ended up in loving homes where they were cherished pets, including some who "made friends" with their intended predator. Which, of course, was one point of my original post. (Btw, I have never seen a rat act "afraid" of a snake. Usually they didn't notice the snake until it was all over. Believe me, they never saw it coming and felt no fear, and any suffering was over very quickly, within seconds.) 

As for the You Tube video, the reason it's "interesting" (yuck.) enough to put on YouTube is that a bad strike is a relatively rare occurance in the care of an experienced and responsible herp-owner. If a snake is making bad strikes (which result in the snake not being able to quickly and efficiently kill the prey animal) regularly, it means the environment is not suitable for the snake to set up a proper ambush, and he's feeling rushed or threatened. Snakes know how to do their jobs, and a prolonged struggle is not their aim. They want it quick and simple. It's the owner's responsibility to provide the snake with enough space and cover to accomplish feeding the way they would in the wild- quick and efficient.

I'm sorry to hear about the petshop freezing those pinks. That incident should've been reported to the local humane society. 

I hope this thread will educate some folks about herps. It might not turn everyone into snake-lovers, any more than a discussion on scorpions and tarantulas as pets would turn me into a bug-lover. (ugh) But, mutual understanding is always an admirable goal.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

For myself and the topic of "breeding feeders," I don't think I ever could now. We went to the pet store and found out the prices of all the rodents we'd need to breed enough only for our snakes but doing so more humanely than "usual" with the females (not milling them, although likely getting 4-5 litters per female from 3.5 months to around 15 months maybe was our plan)...

But within a few weeks of me researching, I decided I wanted a few as pets, and would get everything for the breeding LATER, in maybe a month or so...

By then, I knew I couldn't breed the rats, play with the eepers as they grew up, and feed the little smarties off that I got attached to (like you can't give away your best friend, basically)... But my snakes have to eat, and so we get frozen now, usually, or freshly humanely euthanized. I respect the animals too much to desire anything else, and it gives me a little qualm whenever I DO feed a snake a rat I once saw alive. Not enough to say I can't do it anymore and give up my personal obligation to my reptilian animals, but enough that I can take no pleasure in even knowing they are staying healthy because of it. But I've always disliked the eating part, even when I wasn't attached to the rodents like I am now...


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Buggzter do you think you're gonna get more reptiles when the ones you have pass on?


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Probably not more snakes. More lizards, yeah - I really like certain ones, and those can be very personable and actually LIKE hanging around with their owners. Collared lizards especially. Most lizards don't live too long, as well.

But here's the thing: all my snakes are under 4 years old. With the life span of these species I have, I'll still have some around in 20 years! Who knows how long they'll live with the proper feeding?

THe thing MANY MANY MANY snake owners do is feed their snakes way too much. THere was this snake that died about 3 or 4 years ago named Baby. She was the largest ever in captivity: 27'11", and 400lbs!!!!! Many snakes will get much bigger than the norm for the wild on food given once every 2-4 weeks, and once every 10-14 days as a hatchling. But many people feed once every 4 days for hatchlings and once a week even for the sub-adults because they want to get them to breeding size so they can profit, or so they can just have a big snake. This shortens their life span in half!!! 20-30 years of life isn't unusual for a boa constrictor who was fed well but not too well throughout her life.

So I'll have snakes until I'm at least 40 most likely, and that's 17 years away still... WHo knows how I'll feel then? Maybe I'll have to have given them up for adoption by then for health reasons in my family, or that they passed away from one of the miriad of diseases they can get? I'll get to that point when I get there...

But, on one hand, I may get one of the tree vipers (non-venemous) who eat mostly lizards and frogs... Most people switch them to rodents for the sake of finding food easily for the animal, but I'd keep them on the lizard/frog/small fish diet for my own sake. Maybe - I know tho that Tony would love to have one sometime. But we'll see what happens then. For now, we actually are reducing the number of lizards/snakes since we have a few friends locally interested in what we do have... It's just those we don't have as high an interest in, but... And the Tarantulas are also going to be severly thinned out - 33 is a LOT of tarantulas... (I told Tony that before he bought so many babies last year. Did he listen? NO) Feeding and watering of so many animals is just tedious, and it all falls on ME. So I get to choose alot of what's being thinned...


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

Aww poor thing. Yeah to me it seems like one tarantula is too many.  Good luck though...with less creepy crawlies you can have more fuzzies! ^_^

As a sidenote, I didn't know snakes could live that long! I was thinking more like 5 years!


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Nope. Most boids (pythons and boas) are around 20-30 years.... *gulp* that's a LONG time... 

Although, we MIGHT be selling the burm to someone who legally breeds them properly, and Camoflage has a great coloring... That's the biggest one out of the house (9', and could reach over 15'!), and the one who will eat at least double what any other snake will at any point in his life span! We'll see if he'll actually pay more than a "rescue" price for him tho.... If not, we're able to pay for his food no problem, it's just NOT cheap. And it's for 20+ years possibly! I would NOT sell him though to anyone who has not had experience with either full grown boas or other GIANT snakes. That would be irresponcible of us, and that's what we've put on ourselves... *shrugs* I like him, would love to keep him, but he's just so darn big and eats SO DARN MUCH!!!!!!!!!! 8O


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## Learna (Mar 4, 2008)

I've only read the first page but here's my little two cents worth.

As an Apprentice Zookeeper part of my skills to learn is the breeding and killing of live food. Mice, cockroaches, mealworms, crickets are what I must learn to breed and kill and in my first year I had to learn to do the same to rats. I did not own rats at the time but it was still hard to do, though not as hard as it may seem. You just have to not think of them as pets, which is sad but it's part of my job. If I do not this this job then the animals in our care would die which include birds of prey and reptiles.

And onto another topic you brought up, snakes and their feelings. Snakes may not be able to return the love you give them however they do get to know you and feel comfortable around which is about as much love as they can show however I believe it's the same amount of love as a rat can give, only in the form of a difference intelligence. There is a Woma Python where I work who is absolutely miserable because she does not get any attention (because we're not allowed to "play" with our animals here which is just fing bs). However, when I look at her I can see what humans would interpret as sadness in her eyes. When I can I handle her and talk to her and she seems a whole lot happier however it is not enough. If a snake has to be rescued then I believe it should be rehab then put back into the wild asap, however if a snake is saved and has already been inprinted then there's no way it can survive in the wild because of human intervention. Here is a quote that describes what resposiblity the people who domesticate animals now have to face: (or in saved cases, other humans now have to take on) 










The best quote I will ever read is that one and that pretty much explained why animals, such as snakes, are kept as pets and unfortuantly why rodents need to be bred for the purpose of being (hopefully frozen) prey. It's a cold hard truth but such is the circle of life. Some animals, such as the turtle don't even live past a few days or live their life in constant fear because of natural selection. Would you not fear for your life every day if you live as the natives do? In caves, huts, tee pees where at anytime you could be killed in an instant by the animals that can hunt you? That would eat you alive? It's natural, and unavoidable but life goes on...

EDIT: Also, if you know of anybody how is feeding live rodents to their snakes report them! That is against the law under the animal cruelty act!


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Whoa, whoa, girl.

Where on earth have you heard it's "against the law" to feed live prey?!!

Any responsible herp owner will always prefer feeding frozen, both for humane reasons and for the safety of their animals, but as I stated before, some wild-caught specimens can not be safely converted to frozen food. (I know this from my own experience under consultation with a herp-trained vet with Jordan, our wild-caught Ball Python, as well as networking with other herp owners on forums like this one for people who love their scaley pets as much as you love your furred ones.)

Thank goodness: because of increased awareness and dedicated breeders, wild-caught snakes are becoming more rare in the pet trade. In fact, even the irresponsible idiots at one local petshop I detest refuse to deal in or buy wild-caught snakes. Wild-caught is becoming increasingly frowned upon, and rightly so, across the pet trade.

If you want to make inflammatory statements and tick people off, congratulations, you've suceeded. If you want to convince people to buy only snakes that will eat frozen and have been bred in captivity by responsible people who are willing to take the time to give them the care they need, I suggest a more reasonable approach, such as strongly recommending feeding frozen and emphasizing the need to only buy captive-bred animals. Education, not ranting, is the key, especially when dealing with the "public" as you surely do in the zoo.

Good luck with your gal at the zoo. I sometimes think zoos have their heads on backwards- too much science and not enough compassion. If a snake has been a pet, it's used to being handled. Whether or not you think it should have beeen a pet, if you take away what it's used to, you may cause distress to the animal- what you see as "sadness", though it's always a stretch to give animals human emotions. They have their own animal emotions, not human ones.

Best of luck with your studies. We need more people educating the culture about animals and their needs. I love that quote, btw, and agree. When we take in an animal, we are responsible to put aside what we want and give the animal what it needs.

I'm sorry if you respond and I don't reply, I'm leaving town this morning for a few days. I'll be back Monday.

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## CeilingofStars (Apr 21, 2008)

That quote is beautiful, btw. I really love it. And I love him...Le Petit Prince? One of the best books ever.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

*Mary *- it's illegal to feed live prey in MOST of Europe and I'm not sure about Australia but quite possibly there too. That's why ppl would need to be reported. 

It's legal in the US, obviously... And also, those countries have such strict laws about bringing animals into the country that you almost never find wild caught animals these days. (In Australia for sure, tho I'm not sure of the Brittish or European laws too well...)


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## AZratkeeper (Jan 27, 2008)

Buggzter said:


> Nope. Most boids (pythons and boas) are around 20-30 years.... *gulp* that's a LONG time...
> 
> 
> > don't froget condas [ aka andacondas ] which are closely related to boas and pythons but closer to boas


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## xampx (Dec 31, 2006)

Just to add my 2 cents, I dont like that snakes are fed mice or rats, live or frozen.

Im not a reptile fan and wouldn't keep a snake as a pet, however if I did, i would only feed it those frozen snake sausages. No idea what they are made off but as long as they don't LOOK like baby rats/mice I could live with it. I mean it can't be that different to the crap they put in sausages for humans.

If my reptile refused to eat the frozen stuff then the reptile would starve to death, (or i'd more likely give it to a shelter) but I would not hold myself responsible as I had provided food and if it was hungry, it should have eaten instead of being so picky.

Just like those cats that old rich ladies keep that "won't eat anything other than fresh chicken or salmon" until the old lady dies and it is forced to eat cheap cat food or starve. Funny what starvation does to animals.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

xampx said:


> Just to add my 2 cents, I dont like that snakes are fed mice or rats, live or frozen.
> 
> Im not a reptile fan and wouldn't keep a snake as a pet, however if I did, i would only feed it those frozen snake sausages. No idea what they are made off but as long as they don't LOOK like baby rats/mice I could live with it. I mean it can't be that different to the crap they put in sausages for humans.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're equating a mammalian instict with reptilian ones. They just don't equate! A snake WILL STARVE ITSELF IF NOT GIVEN FOOD IT RECOGNIZES AS FOOD. If it's wild caught, you sometimes cannot get them to switch to p/k or f/t rodents (prekilled recently, or frozen/thawed). Thus you have to shove the food down their throat or they will die. If you let them die cuz you won't feed them properly, that's animal cruelty.

As for giving them away, some will - that's their choice because they cannot stand the responcibility or "yuckiness" of what they have taken upon themselves. If you can no longer provide for a child because of illness of yours or whatever, a family member or friend might adopt the child to be responcible, but can you really give that child up "just because you can't stand feeding/cleaning/caring for the kid" anymore? I really hate the boils my child is prone to at this time of year (2 baths per day in anti-bacterial still doesn't stop it!), and I hate the gooy pus I have to clean up after, but I can't just give her away cuz I think this part of the responcibility is ICKY. I chose to have her, like I chose to have these animals. Good and bad.

As for sausages, I have never heard of "snake sausages" to feed to them. And human sausages are often so full of junk I wouldn't eat them - worse than most real junk food! I think it would be neat if you could get snakes to eat a heathy version of one, though. But I doubt that would be possible unless you imprinted them on it as a neonate hatchling getting their first meal, and then you'd likely have to shove the first 3-4 down their throats (you have to do that with some baby ball pythons occasionally, but after 1-4 times they'll do it themselves...). As for wild-caught adults, you sometimes have to get the African Soft Furred rats to feed them since that IS what they eat in the wild, nearly 100% of the time. They often don't even recognize Norway rats as food unless they are scented with old bedding from the ASF rats first, and sometimes have to be force-fed a coupel times even before they get it...

It's not just a simple don't feed live and they'll take to it eventually.... Snakes can go for around 6-12 months with no food if they were at a good weight before the starvation period, and only then do they start to significantly lose weight (depends on the age and species of snake for the true period of time...). I have one captive bred ball python who didn't eat for the first 4 months I had her, then she went very well with her food ever since. I had a male dumerils (who I just sold to a good friend) that refused to eat for 3 months before eating his first meal with me, and he was SMALL!!! That's just how they are designed... And they'll starve if you don't do what you as an owner need to do for them and their health.


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## Jingles (Feb 2, 2008)

Brizzle said:


> I love snakes. I have 3 and they're all very friendly. They may not bond with their owners as other animals may, but they still get comfortable around you. My favorite snake will actually go to sleep next to my boyfriend and loves to rub his head on his facial hair. It is the cutest thing ever.
> As to feeding, I buy frozen mice. And they don't have this long freezing process. They actually flash freeze them, so it is over quickly. Also, feeding live mice could harm the snake. You don't know if they are carrying any diseases or if they will bite your snake. I just treat the frozen mice like food, and that's it. I don't make myself get upset over it. It may seem cold to some people here, but that's how I look at it.



"I'll Second that"




Plus I would love to see all of Buggzter's reptile's,

you can't look at this subject one-sided......I couldn't bring myself to starve an animal ....ANY....animal to death. And if i had snakes i would feed them rats...that i personally take care of....I mean...hey i'm a rat person and i would make sure these rats had atleast one nice month....one thats filled with yummy pieces of steak and goodies.....good living conditions....chicken bones to chew. 

I know this rat didn't suffer...isn't hungry....and not abused. And its life isn't taken for granted.

I wouldn't bond/socialise with the rat as i would my own....but thats more for me than the rat.


do you know what i mean or am i just "drunk"


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## JulesMichy (Apr 8, 2007)

xampx said:


> Just to add my 2 cents, I dont like that snakes are fed mice or rats, live or frozen.
> 
> Im not a reptile fan and wouldn't keep a snake as a pet, however if I did, i would only feed it those frozen snake sausages. No idea what they are made off but as long as they don't LOOK like baby rats/mice I could live with it. I mean it can't be that different to the crap they put in sausages for humans.
> 
> ...


I'm really scared to ask what you feed your rats, since snake sausages and "cheap cat food" are acceptable forms of nutrition in your mind.

Buggzter, snake sausages are awful. I've heard of snakes refusing to eat, snakes that do eat them losing weight, having metabolic bone disease, among other things. They're just not an acceptable substitute for whole prey.

And xampx, you can get mice and rats from good companies that euthanize them very humanely with CO2 gas before freezing them. We'll never know the conditions that they're kept in beforehand, but then again, the conditions at the place that makes the sausages won't be any better. The mice/rats/rabbits/chickens might even be killed in a less humane manner, who knows?

Sausages =/= better for the snake or the prey animals.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Jingles, I would do the same as you if I didn't have so many mouths to feed. In which case, it's tons cheeper to buy frozen since that's a cheep alternative if you buy in large quantities usually...

If I had feeders that I bought alive, I would treat them with toys and same food and treats as my pet rats - it's only fair to them to have a good life while alive, as you said. Although, I would have a hard time DOING that and not getting attached. It's one reason I'm glad I have a good excuse to buy frozen...

As it was, when we did have to euthanize rodents, Tony and I both hated doing it and had to take turns... It's one reason we switched to F/T - although, we have to go still to one friend and get a p/k mouse once a week since one snake still won't do frozen (he didn't eat for 3 months, and he's too little to do do any more than that... Finally took 2 p/k, and has ever since... working on the frozen ones tho...)....


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## Jingles (Feb 2, 2008)

I was talking in "if i only had the money too lala land".....i don't have lizards that eat mice....but that is what i would do if i had the money of course.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

don't worry - that was clear. And that's what I would do now, if it weren't more practical to buy already frozen food for my babes.

Oh, Jules, as for sausages: I didn't think they would be good for the snakes - it's unnatural and their bodies are not made to digest them. Plus, how do you know that they actualy have all the parts of the feeder that it's supposed to? You wouldn't be able to monitor their health properly that way! Same with humans and anything else: the less processed the food is, the better for the one eating it! 

Best diet for humans (long life, great health, yadda yadda....): RAW veggies, RAW fruits, and RAW grains and nuts. All natural foods. That's why alot of vegans are so healthy. Others are NOT healthy cuz they don't ballance it to have enough protein sometimes, and tofu and soy is not necessary! Just lots and lots of beans and grains like wheat and such... Well, whole grain bread can be eaten too, not just uncooked grains.... But meat helps us ballance that protein need much more easily, and it tastes good! You just NEED very little compared to what most people eat. *sigh* I really don't want to discuss all of that - I'm too tired of talking about first snakes' dietary needs, and then playing devil's advocate for doggie diets... *YAWN* I need to go sleep... hubby is in the hospital and ER just way too much - I need the chance to sleep sometimes! lol!


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## Learna (Mar 4, 2008)

Marysmuse, I agree I was a little raw raw raw with my last post and apologise to all who were offended, I was only trying to do the second thing you mentioned^_^
Thanks for the support with my studies, I'm doing fairly well and am almost half way through a three year apprenticeship^_^ Where I work is not a zoo, they tell us to call it a 'bio park". They are not really in it for the animals unfortuantly...
Glad you liked the quote, I came across it while doing my studies. I love it soooo much too^_^


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## Jessen (Apr 9, 2008)

I never get involved in these conversations, but i have to say something.

"I have no problem with feeding humanely killed (and by that, I mean CO2 asphyxiation..."

CO2 is -never- humane. Hold your breath for as long as you can.. is that comfortable?

I'm sorry, but these kinds of statements bring back all kinds of horrible things for me, like the sounds of dogs screaming and shrieking as they were suffocated by CO2.


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## collisiontheory89 (Apr 16, 2008)

I guess CO2 is 'humane' when compared to other ways to kill an animal....starvation, neglection, etc. Obviously the best thing is to not have the animal killed in the first place...but I wouldn't consider CO2 to be so bad compared to other methods. It's simply too expensive for companies to kill rats and what not by means of drugs (pentobarb, etc. Not sure what would be used). I'm not saying that it's RIGHT or FAIR but simply the reality of the situation.

As for the snake argument, I don't particularly have a stance either way. I think both sides of the argument have valid points. I obviously don't like the idea of rats beeing killed and fed to other animals, but I don't think it's right for an animal to be denied food simply because you think it's not capable of being a worthy pet. Meh, I don't know really.


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

CO2 asphyxiation isn't exactly as it sounds, and if done CORRECTLY doesn't 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to get graphic to explain to you that this IS IN FACT humane when done correctly.

Any animal needs O2 to survive. Normally in the atmosphere there's around 21% O2. On airplanes, it's usually 19% since you get kinda sleepy from less O2, but it's harmless - just keep the passengers less active, which is good if there's a problem. Much less than 19% can make people just fall asleep (natural thing for us to conserve oxygen).

Rats and other animals will do the same exact thing. You build a chamber large enough for the animal(s), but comfortable for them, have two hoses attached - one on top, one on bottom. Hook the bottom one to your CO2 cannister or whatever you have to administer the CO2. Top one allows the O2 to escape since Co2 is heavier and will push it out. THe person opporating the device SHOULD *SLOWLY *turn the CO2 on, just enough for a little leak. You would slowly up the amount going in until you see the animals starting to get sleepy and fall asleep. As soon as they are just physically sleeping (NOT dead), you crank the O2 up and they will die *PEACEFULLY*.

Some people unfortunately don't care too much or realize what they are supposed to do with it and crank the CO2 up before the animal(s) is/are asleep and the animal DOES choke to death with lack of air. That's why you need to know exactly what you are doing, and usually have someone who knows what THEY are doing teach you and help you so it's done humanely all the time.

Although, I know very few of you would ever do this, no matter what! But it is completely humane and used in many other cases with other animals when various drugs are not available for euthanasia in various parts of the world. _*But it HAS TO BE DONE PROPERLY FOR IT TO BE HUMANE*_.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey guys...

Bugz, thanks for the very clear explanation. Interesting. Sad, but interesting. 

I understand, Learna. I wonder what they feed in the UK if they have "wild caught" snakes. I'm sure it's done, probably just not openly. I do wish the US would crack down on wild-caught animal dealers, but that's another topic.

As for me, I'm bowing out now. I think everything's pretty much been said.

And, I have some work to do. The lady who gave me a critique on my novel asked to see revisions- a very Good Thing in the writing world. 

So I'll be around, just probably a bit quieter for a while. 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## Buggzter (Feb 13, 2008)

Mary, I agree with you. I don't think I have anything else I can add to this conversation. IF anyone has additional questions, I'll answer, but... Otherwise, sianora! (or however you spell it... :wink: )


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