# immersion NOT working???



## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

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im confused.
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from all the posts i have read, immersion seems to turn even the most HORRID rats into little charmers and loving rats.


maybe i messed up somewhere? because it doesnt seem to be working! (or maybe im not patience enough??)

I have been doing immersion for a week now. everyday, i have been literally spending hours upon hours in a room with my ratties. i take them out, give them free range. i have spent time laying on the ground, and ive spent time sitting. trying to get more on their level of height to a point. 

some days i feel like its working, they come up to me, runs threw my pant, up and down my legs, dont seem afraid of me. then ill come back another time and they seem afraid of me, hiding behind the cage and only coming out if i hold a treat near the exit and then they run back behind =[ im really upset because i was happy and felt i was doing good with them, and now they dont... im confused with immersion. is it a one time deal and then once they trust you thats it? because at this point, i DO NOT FEEL THAT WAY. they are still scared....

i have been trying SO SO SO hard to try to make my ratties love and trust me, and its been a battle. i need help. any advice. ANYTHING


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## Nathan4d (Feb 17, 2013)

Best bet might be messaging rat daddy as he knows what he is talking about


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## 3 ratties (Apr 6, 2013)

A week is nothing! I got my rats when they were 5 weeks old. I didn't have a job at the time and I held them almost Constantly and it took about 2 months for them to be loving and social towards me. Some people talk about "oh my rat just loves me and is all over me" right off the bat and I'm not saying there lying but it makes more sense that it takes more time than just that. Especially depends on where your rat lives before and just the personality it was born with that determines how much time it will take. My girls were 5 weeks old very scared and very skittish. They were handled pretty much none before coming to me so it took 2 months. I thought it was crazy they didn't bond with me in a week or two, but it isn't bad or unusual. I find that rats take more patience then any other pet I've had and it all paid off


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for making me feel betterLol i was panicked...I got them from a petsmart so i know their past isnt best. I do have a job, but i plan on spending hrs a day w them  ill just keep spending time n showin them i wana be their friend


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

It took my friendly rattie 2 weeks to be real cool with me. And my brown rat took 6 weeks! Give it time


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## Jess Of TheFatRatChannel (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi, i just started immersion with one of my rats so i don't know much on the matter only the notes i've taken from Rat daddy's thread. But if your rats are from a pet shop, then perhaps they don't entirely understand your motives yet? I know Rat daddy compared new rats to adopted children so i'll try and do the same; they've lived without human contact for, most likely, their entire lives up to this point. You're new and a human, humans in your rat's past would have definitely handled them as little as possible, and unfortunately, possibly even handled them harshly or hurt them. Think of a neglected or abused child, it can take years for them to fully trust another adult again and so the same goes for rats with humans (although they'll come around a lot faster than a child would). With fostered and adopted children, it can seem you are making progress one day and then you appear to be back at square one the next day. At this point the larger part of their life has been spent with negative human experiences and the positives you've brought them are only the minority overall. I guess you just need to keep it up until your kindness pays off and they begin to trust in humans again. 

Remember that intelligent animals such as dogs and rats can often sense a persons energy, so if you are over zealous they may be a little taken aback and try to keep a distance between you and them. I suggest re-reading Rat daddy's entire thread and taking notes down so you are constantly reminded of the steps. (This has helped me a lot.) Don't rush things, move at your rats pace. This bonding is an important step in your relationship with them. You want to take your time with it and cherish even these memories! 

Hope this helped, please keep us updated!


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I would PM Rat Daddy.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

The process of Immersion is not a one time thing. The actual initial procedure of having your rats out with you is only the first step, but this should have been a minimum of 5 hours out with them really. Did you get them out for a marathon session when you started, or try to break it up into sessions of around 2 hours at a time? It needs to be a LONG session, as long as possible really. Also, you should try doing Immersion as a one-on-one process rather than having all of your rats out at a time. The thing you have to remember is that how long it takes to Immerse rats that are skittish. If you go into the Immersion thread, you'll notice I've made a short list of the "stages" of how much a rat is socialised. I made that scale so people could judge where their rats are at - the lower down the more work they'll take.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Im going to try one at a time--i had been doin both at once cuz i read somewhere they are braver in pairs sooo... Ill try one and at a time. Maybe i can also try a tighter space ie-bathroom


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes, try a space where they can't hide as much and let them come to you. Allow them to play and run around first before picking them up and getting in their face.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

I have a walk in shower area, im guna sit there, put one of my girls in ata time and jus sit n read until she comes to me haha


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah and when a rattie walks past you, just give them a little pet to get them use to being touched


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I did get the pm, and I replied... but this is a different facet of the diamond. First of all this is the first time I'm seeing anything about sitting there reading... When you do immersion you are not a plant you are a participant... you don't read, you engage the rat with play and handling. You initiate constant interaction, if you sit there quietly for long enough, your rat will more than likely bond with your plumbing fixtures before it bonds with you.

And two hours is not an immersion, it's a normal play session. Two hour play sessions will work over time as long as you engage in play with your rats throughout the session.

Immersion is a process of bonding through interaction and communication and pushing through until you succeed. Sure you let your rat explore a little and yes you let it run around if it wants and looks happy doing it, but remember it's all about your bonding, the actual time you spend in each other's faces. My friend had 32 wild rats living in her home 24 x 7 and despite sharing the same house not one of them ever became a pet. Proximity does not equal interaction. You have to be the alpha and you have to initiate and enforce continuous play and interaction throughout the session. People who do it right often report their rats actually getting so tired they fall asleep and holding them and cuddling with them while they nap then when the rats wake up they seem to change because they realize they have been napping on their mortal enemy and maybe the human isn't such an enemy after all.

If you spend 2 hours locked in a room with a rat and you interact for only 5 minutes... consider that a 5 minute play session not an immersion session. You are in that room to be actively engaged... not catch up on your reading. You are supposed to be initiating interaction not waiting for your rat to do it. You are the alpha setting the goals and the pace not the plumbing.

Yes you do respond to how your rat behaves, if it shows affection you love on it, if it's hostile you fight back hard, but if it wants to ignore you, you keep pushing for interaction. It has to know you are an intelligent and emotional being and not a porcelain fixture. 

Giving your rat space isn't part of the program. Immersion is stressful on a rat and sometimes on you. But the way both you and your rat relieve stress is by bonding and playing together, not by retiring to different corners. The most stressful thing to a rat is not belonging to a pack and not having a loving alpha. That's what's causing your rat the stress it's experiencing in the first place, the way to reduce and eliminate your rat's stress is to show it your are it's alpha (read as mom or dad or friend) and make sure it knows you are protecting and loving it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion is a process that works well if you do it right. It's the way rats join packs.. and believe me when a strange rat wanders into and established pack... the very last thing the preexisting pack members are going to do is leave it alone to wander about the nest site, steal their food and kill their babies. They are going to stay engaged to that new rat until they are completely certain that it's bonded 100% to the new pack. And any rat that's trying to join a new pack knows what to expect. 

Imagine taking a new job and your boss just leaves you alone and no one talks to you for a month... I actually saw this done once... We hired a new secretary in the middle of a major add campaign and everybody had too much work to do and no one had a minute to train her or even talk to her. Finally we wheeled her away from her desk so we could use her typewriter and her desk space. She sat out on the middle of the floor sad and alone with nothing to do while we walked around her. After a month I took about 5 minutes to show her how the file system worked and oddly enough within a few hours the huge pile of backlogged filing on my desk disappeared. Then I had a 4 page document to type that I was going to spend the next few hours doing; I gave it to her and within 10 minutes she gave me back a typed draft ready for correction... She typed nearly 100 words per minute, and she took dictation and we didn't even know it. I'm going to say, it took me less than half an hour to start putting her to work and she was happy and excited for the first time to be part of the team. She came in every morning and asked if anyone had anything we needed done and we were thrilled to have her. Within just a few days there were flowers and pictures on her desk and she was sitting with her feet underneath it and within a few weeks she was at the center of the office's workflow. Leaving her alone to acclimate or find something to do on her own didn't make her happy or get any work done. It wasn't until I realized it was my job to engage her that she became useful and satisfied and I truly became the assistant manager in that office in more than just title. I've managed several offices and businesses since then and I've never repeated that mistake. When the new person walks in the door, I introduce everyone, clearly establishing who reports to who and start training and provide work to do right on day one. That's what a new hire expects, that's what they need and that's what they get.

Sure, over time, perhaps a new employee might figure out what to do on their own and a rat is eventually going to figure out you aren't a toilet, but there's no reason to wait 6 weeks while your rat flounders around lost and confused to get your rat socialized.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for the info, i guess ive misunderstood what i need to do  i guess i was afraid of scaring the rattys w so much attention but i guess i need to


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Update--been in the shower w myOne girl for 30 mins SO FAR and shes been sitting on my chest cuddled up and bruxing like mad ^^ im guna keep this up for a few more hrs!!!


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

*im petting her and shes bruxing


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stress is the inability to manage, escape or overcome a threat. It kills humans. You know your spouse is cheating on you but you don't have anywhere to move to or your company has filed chapter 13 and you don't have another job to go to or your entire industry has moved to China. Now rats don't do stress like this. They are designed to deal with their fears in the most appropriate and expeditious manner. They have fear, which they deal with by running or hiding or fighting or in the case of immersion... understanding and making friends with.

In nature rats encounter fear all of the time, most likely every day. There are humans and preditors and subway trains and cars and droughts and food shortages and the list goes on and on. Just about every minute when a rat is out of it's nest it faces it's fears and sometimes when it's trapped or cornered it gets stressed, (rats usually preen when thinking or stressed). But then it deals with it or dies. That's the deal.

You can't protect your rat from fear and it will deal with it's own stress. You most likely shouldn't go out and adopt a fox as a roommate for your rat, but on the other hand you don't want to be worrying about your rat being scared or stressed... that's its natural condition and what it's built for. Even many humans need some element of stress to learn and succeed otherwise they wouldn't give you test at school or reviews at work. If there were no midterm or final test would you really read the textbook? And if there were no reviews and no chance of getting fired would you really take your work home to get something extra done? Most humans benefit from some fear and some stress too.

And petting and bruxing sounds like you are on the right track!


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

I feel i may of hit ground work! Shes been neslted on my chest for 1.5 hr, while ive been petting nd she keeps bruxing =]


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm pretty much going with... it's about time to buy the matching T-shirts in rat and human sizes.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Haha my backs fallen asleep from bein acwardly shoved in a walkin shower and havnt moved because shes so precious asleep!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You'll know better for your next immersion and bring a pillow. I actually enjoy immersions. I'm pretty good and not bringing home hostile biting rats and make a marathon play session out of it. I'm more playful if I'm comfy.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

Haha that i did learn... Hit the 2 hr mark of her sleeping/bruxing and cuddling!!!!!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Now your're just showboating... but anyway remember to keep using her name in the precisely same way over and over and over again so she starts to know who she is if she doesn't already know her name. Name and command training come after immersion so you might as well get started.


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

After a anazing 5 hr session, cupcake has positive results! It was beautiful! She cuddled with me for hours and i pet her and she bruxed and just stared deep into my eyes so trustworthy an then i took her for a strol around my upstairs on my chest/shoulder and she didnt move a inch! FamilyCalled and i hada go but that 5 hr session was perfect!! Tom=other ratty!!'


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## Hlgphotos (May 26, 2013)

I kept saying her name over and over and she would perk up w her name sooo i think shes catching on!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There's a strange phase in immersion where many people doing it generally become convinced that it's not working and that either I am crazy for having devised it or they are crazy for trying it... Then they just seem to get it and tend to dig in and get serious about reaching out to their rat in earnest and suddenly the rat starts responding with affection. 

I've always suspected that something actually changes in the human mind as well as in the rat's mind during immersion. Maybe there's a vibe or a scent the human gives off that the rat responds to (desperation perhaps?). Maybe it's more like two boxers just collapsing on each other in exhaustion and shaking hands and agreeing to be friends.. I don't know, but once you go through it everything changes, then you have to keep reinforcing and building your new friendship with daily play sessions.

But I have to admit, there have now been several successful immersions done on line in real time; at least one done with a hostile rat... Before immersion the common wisdom was six weeks of trust training or forced socialization for a normal rat and a neuter for a nasty one first. Once Fuzzy Rat taught me it was all about communication with rats and I got to watch first hand how wild rats tried to immerse my daughter it all became so simple and apparent to me. 

It was weird but I just suddenly got it, which is the same feeling some people describe when the immersion happens with their own rats. Moreover, long term, people with immersed rats seem to report having better relationships with their rats. Although I have to admit that our Fuzzy Rat deserves most of the credit for not giving up on me, I'm never the less gratified when I read another success story. 

Fuzzy Rat is curled up napping somewhere under the furniture, I'm pretty sure she's not at all impressed, I think she believed humans had it in them all along to be friends with and alphas to their rats. In fact I don't think she even realizes we are different species, we just look funny and have a speech defect.


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