# Monster rat



## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Hi everyone
So before I start with my problem, haven't been on in a while so I'll start by saying that I have 4male ratties. 2 of which are 9months old and 2 that are almost 6months. I've bonded soooo well with them over the past few months, they clearly are aware of whose in charge.
Now for my problem...I adopted another rat in need. He lost his cage buddy and needed to be rehomed by his previous owner because he was getting depressed and the owner didn't want to have to go through another loss or getting another rat.
This new rats name is Whiskers, he is about 6-7months old and is extremely cage aggressive, I cant even put my hand close to the cage and he tries "going" for me. Im petrified!! And he probably knows it. I know I need to get him out to do the whole immersion with him but I am soooo scared of having my hands mauled by him. Everytime I pluck up the courage I go into this state of mind that he's gonna hurt me and my natural reactions kick in and I give up  I know this is a terrible thing to do and I've probably made matters worse. I know what I need to do but I just dont know how to get over my fear of being hurt. He's also hissed at me on one occasion of just walking past the cage. Any suggestions or similar experiences that anyone has gone through and how did you overcome your fear and how do you just shut off any natural reactions of pulling away if you get bitten? Whiskers bites hard and has even drawn blood on my boyfriends hand when he tried approaching him in his cage. Im too scared to even put in new food for him or clean his cage  
Its so discouraging and I feel horrible because my other rats are so so happy and they get very spoilt and they're loved dearly by both myself and my boyfriend. 
Pleeeeeeaaaase help me.
Im not sure if neutering him will even solve the problem since it seems that he hates us and we just want to help, im just so scared of him

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## ahrat (Aug 12, 2013)

My boy would squeak, run, nip at me if I tried to pull him out of his cage with my bare hands. But when done with a piece of fleece, he was a little more calm. I don't know if this will help, but it's at least something to get him out of the cage to clean and feed him. Also, my boys we're just skittish, and I had to carry them down a flight of stairs to free range, so I started using their carrier to take the little trip. They realized when they got in the carrier, they got to go have fun. I would just hold the carrier up to their cage door, and they would all run in. None of this will fix the cage aggression, but you can at least get him out and see if he's aggressive outside of the cage.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stefni,

(everybody else look away)

Armour up in multiple layers of clothes and coats, bring towels and big oven mitts... and go into immersion with a similar attitude he has towards you... You are the big bear in the room, take charge immediately and get him to back down.... Forget about making friends or earning trust... take charge, you are a thousand times bigger than Whiskers and he has to know you are not a chew toy or a subordinate right from the gate.

This is extreme immersion... it's the special case you NEVER do with a normal rat. This is the kind of immersion people rail against and the variety I don't usually encourage...

But with extremely aggressive and biting rats it's the only method that works... And as biting rats are not pets, this is the procedure for saving his life. 

Many people who have done extreme immersion report being afraid and even crying, it can get ugly fast but you can cut down the combat time by being more aggressive right from the start... No you don't chase him around, but if he attacks you he learns exactly what a stupid idea that is immediately and hopefully stops doing it quicker. Rats really aren't stupid, they may be stubborn and not give up easy, but they will not keep attacking something when they realize they can't win or when it hurts them.

You can swat, bop, push cover and even toss a rat that's attacking you, pinning him down sounds good, but is likely to get you bit, so focus on a strong defense more than a good attack strategy... And keep your cool don't hurt Whiskers. A rat can take a fall from several feet and will not be harmed by being swatted back firmly with an oven glove, but if you stomp on him it's all over. You might be able to restrain him in a towel for a while so he can calm down and get that you are in charge.... 

Prepare for a long session, the first immersion session doesn't end until the biting stops and he stops attacking you. Hopefully you can move on all the way through to the happy ending... but if you break before he realized you won and he's your subordinate, he'll chalk the experience up as a win for him and he'll fight harder the next time.

Once and only after you get through the biting and attacking then you switch gears and start working on building a friendship and a bond.

You aren't being vindictive or punishing your rat... not ever and never. This isn't negative reinforcement, it's communication, that's all. You are telling Whiskers in no uncertain terms that you ARE the 3000 lb bear in the room, you are the only alpha in the house and you aren't going to take his nonsense... once he gets that he might just want to be your friend. Then you make friends like you would any other rat and hopefully end the session with him napping on you while you skritch his belly to reward him.

I'd love to be all touchy feely and encouraging and write about positive reinforcement but that doesn't work, if he's attacking you there's nothing to reinforce. You have a vicious biting animal that's trying to push you around and he will hurt you badly if you mess with him. He's no pet and will eventually get out of his cage and hurt someone or kill one of your other animals. If extreme immersion doesn't fix him, it's neutering and if that doesn't work he gets PTS. That's honestly where you are at. 

Extreme immersion has a very high success rate because most biting behavior is learned and can be unlearned. Rats are smart, but they won't become your friend while they are trying to push you around. Without respect there's no bond building... 

And most of all be careful, remember you are trying not to hurt him, but he is trying to hurt you... You are actually in the most danger during extreme immersion. Don't let him near your face or bare skin until you see signs he's trying to make friends with you.

(for everyone else reading this... don't do this with your rats! Being a human alpha is like being a parent, in this case Stefni, is dealing with a dangerous problem child... and needs to gain control of a bad situation before she can be a good mom. And Whiskers has nothing to lose. There's no screwing up an aggressive biting rat worse than it already is.)

Modern Chinese Proverb... If you have fear, then you need more courage...

Best luck and be careful.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I Think this can probably be resolved without getting aggressive back to him. I've had plenty of problem rats do well with firm rules in place and a pair of gloves. The key thing is the gloves will help you to be confident and not let him get away with biting. I'd start of working with him in his cage. Gloves on ignore him and potter around moving his stuff and similar. If he approaches and sniffs ignore him. If he bites or attacks quickly grab him and say no firmly then put him down again. Repeat for add long as you can sit with your arm in the cage and as many times a day as you can spare. When he stops approaching you then start touching him in passing lightly until he ignores it. Then handling and stroking him briefly and so on. It can take a long time but it's worthwhile. 

I would also probably have him neutered to as it will mean he no longer has the added pressure of hormones on top of his rubbish start in life. It can really help problem lads though I know me and rat daddy disagree on this one lol


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

I too think thick gloves and towels are the way to go, as mentioned above.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Firstly I've just rescued three rats, two are brothers and was kept separated due to fighting they wasn't ever handled and obviously became aggressive/scared, it's took me a month and these two are now living together and in with my other rats they no longer bite and are very affectionate although still nervous which is expected. All I did was use an oven glove that I kept in by bed over night and put it on my hand and kept it in the cage, also I kept an old piece of clothing In the cage at all times, after a few hours I then attempted to stroke them with the oven glove and then eventually picked them up. Then after they got used to this I stopped using the oven glove. I would just like to add take your time! Don't rush anything as some do take longer, my recently rescue is worse and I've had him a week, he is on his own and I'm taking things a lot slower due to the severity of his aggression, but I will be using the same technique. It works wonders, I know how scary it can be but you need to brush that off, they can sense when your scared and it scares them, the worse that can happen is you get bit, but if you have a lot of protection you won't even feel it, good luck!!! 


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Thank you everyone! I'm feeling a bit more confident about the situation now. 
I will definitely keep you in the loop of how things turn out after a long session with him today, im going to use my mountain biking gloves for this, they're pretty thick, though I don't doubt he's teeth are able to pierce the fabric. If that doesn't work ill pull the oven mits lol  wish me luck 

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## fox (Feb 5, 2014)

I agree with the suggestions of gloves and lots of patience. One thing I want to say is please don't be tempted to hit or act otherwise aggressive toward him... aggressive behavior typically is a reaction of fear, and aggression breeds more aggression... you don't want him even more afraid of you! 

Might I suggest starting with, using thick gloves to place something REALLY tasty in his cage several times a day? Put on gloves, walk up to cage, calmly place treat in cage and walk away, and repeat. Soon the human coming up to the cage doesn't seem so bad, and you can progress from there.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When two new rats meet they usually box and chase each other and brawl it out, it's as much ritual as anything else... Does it inspire permanent fear? Doubtful.... Perhaps it does promote respect, and yes I suppose we shouldn't put the concept of respect past our rats. The term respect may not translate precisely into rat from English but for my purposes... let's say it's close enough.

I know and I strongly believe in kindness, and tenderness in how rats should be treated. Play is almost always better than confrontation.... But we're talking about communication here. And sometimes we have to tell our kids they can't just burn down the house. No means NO and some behaviors are absolutely unacceptable... EVER. There's fines and prison for humans that act antisocially which we all tend to accept and there is even a death penalty in some states for adult humans that just don't get it. Life for rats and humans is't always ice cream and candy. Antisocial behavior has consequences even without the element of retribution or punishment. You kick your teacher and she doesn't give you a better grade for your good aim. 

We have to be careful not to confuse fear with aggression. Both can involve biting... A fearful rat will run away in the immersion area because it has room to run, if the rat is withdrawing then you shouldn't be attacking it, you are coaxing it and trying to calm it down and trying to get it to see you as a friend capable of communication your gloves or mitts should protect you as you engage it without having to be aggressive, but if it attacks you, you use means to communicate that biting is not an option and you are bigger and badder than it is. Basically you earn it's respect and defend yourself. A rat that's biting out of fear when trapped in a cage may not be aggressive when it has more room in the immersion area and this might not turn out to be an extreme immersion, which would be very desirable. But it's best to prepare for the worst even when you hope for the best.

Simply put some rats aren't afraid of you. They have pushed people around before and gotten away with it. They are biting because they want to overwhelm you and be in charge. They will also hurt their cage mates. As in, what exactly happened to it's room mate? And when you get one on one with this rat he will attack... this is when you become the gentle bear (stressing bear, not gentle) in the room and end his confusion. 

So if a rat runs away, you can try being reassuring and friendly, you still don't let it bite you but you're definitely not trying to beat it into submission. It's already in full withdrawal thereby not challenging you. On the other hand if it's attacking you then you fight back just like any other rat would.

I realize that rats that bite out of aggression are uncommon. And they are a special case, that's why extreme immersion is a special treatment. It's also why trust training makes aggressive rats worse, a rat sees your trust building as you being submissive and it just attacks with more severity when you aren't compliant enough.

The issue of permanent emotional damage is always brought up... yes and when our daughter was a baby we were so careful what we said around her and the language we used... she's 8 years old now and she not only knows most 4 letter words, both the good and the bad ones, but she can use them in context and as an honor student can spell them. Amazingly, her English is proper and appropriate for a child her age, despite having a broad vocabulary and we didn't do any permanent damage after all, even if we slipped with our language around the house on occasion. It's a lot easier to bond with a rat and smooth over some hurt feelings when it isn't attached to your nose...

As to patience, yes with frightened rats, patience is a good idea, with aggressive rats it's a sign of weakness... By being patient while your rat tries to rip your fingers off, exactly what are you communicating? Are you telling it it's OK to bite you? And if so, why should it stop? Should we assume that rats get bored with biting people or somehow decide that you have suffered enough? Or lastly I offer the possibility that your rat is going to become docile and submissive to you because of how well you can take a bite.... OK that's over the top, but I'm making a point.

I'd just like to add that if you know Whiskers teeth are sharp enough to pierce you bike gloves and you're thinking about switching to oven mitts after you get bitten through the gloves... shouldn't you just start with the oven mitts right away, then when he's less likely to bite you switch to the bike gloves? I'm one of those people who hates getting rat bit and won't use my own fingers to test how safe a glove is... but it's your choice.

I do hope this doesn't turn into an extreme immersion, but if it does you are fighting for Whiskers life, remember you are doing it out of love and don't get rattled. If you get into a fight, remember communication not punishment is the rule of the day.

Best luck.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

I figured the bike gloves wouldn't work when I had a look at them so I bought I pair of really really thick leather hardware gloves and I even wore my bike gloves underneath. 
I managed to get him out the cage with a bit of a struggle and sat with him in the bath for 4hours+. 
In those 4hours he kept approaching me, I spoke quietly for what it was worth and tried stroking him every now then which he wasn't too impressed by. In the last 30minutes he attacked with serious force and I persisted with touching him gently but he bit down so hard that his teeth penetrated right through both sets of gloves, and I just want to stress that these leather gloves are seriously thick. My finger is swollen and bleeding really badly, its now turning blue. I did manage to pin him with force after he had bit me but I was in such a state afterwards that I just couldn't carry on for any longer. 
I'm lost for words with this rat, seriously!! He's very aggressive! I'm not sure if I can save him  crying as I type because I feel so hopeless. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

That went pretty well from Whiskers point of view... Let me translate what happened...

You took him to a new place where he was unsure of himself, you acted friendly and docile and he built up his confidence. Then he kicked or ripped the stuffing out of you, proved his dominance and was rewarded for his masterful handling of the situation by being returned to his cage.

From Whiskers point of view this was a complete victory, and the next time out he isn't waiting for 3 hours, he's going after you sooner and he's going to be more aggressive.


Score at the end of Round 1... Whiskers 1 / Stefni 0

Stefni, and folks reading along.... I know you all have big hearts and I do too and none of us want to hurt a poor rat or terrorize an already frightened animal. Every fiber of our beings is crying out to be nice and kind to this poor misguided animal... But that's the worst thing anyone can do. 

This poor rat is screwed up, most likely his prior owners had withdrawn from him after he pushed them away, and he may have murdered his roommate. He may be a sweet misguided rat down deep, but for now you are dealing with the mean, vicious and dominating rat at the surface. 

I only got rat bit once.. and somewhere between being flung across the room... hitting the far wall and sliding down to the floor that rat decided NEVER to repeat that mistake. I did it reflexively but the effect was the same. She came right back to me all apologetic.

Extreme immersion is supposed to be confrontational and unpleasant. But the rat, not the human is supposed to be taking the brunt of the conflict. 

The rat attacks and whack it gets smacked by an oven mitt, it attacks again and gets flipped back, it attacks again and winds up wrapped in a towel and restrained helplessly. And it's going to attack over and over and each time it gets beaten back with ever increasing force until it stops.

Light bulbs go off in the rats head and it suddenly thinks, "If I attack this human I'm getting stomped. What a stupid idea.... I'm never going to go through that again! Maybe I should try being nice..."

Extreme immersion is a special case, it isn't normal immersion and it has different rules. And by the way, the more Stefni mucks around with Whiskers the more aggressive he will get and the more she's getting bit. I once fixed a rat that had been biting it's humans every day for 3 months. Getting bitten yesterday, doesn't avoid getting bitten today or tomorrow.

Whiskers wants a rat fight not a bonding experience and he's fighting to win... Are you?

Stefni, I'm sorry you are reading this, I don't like extreme immersion and I wrote it. But you are right, you can't keep a biting rat and you shouldn't pass it on to some unsuspecting victim. And although neutering might help, there's no evidence at this point that the problem is hormonal, so it might not. Which has you considering putting this rat to sleep. That might not be a terrible loss, there are plenty of nice friendly rats that need good homes...

But if you really want to fix this rat, you cover those thick leather gloves with oven mitts and go in swinging... No more getting bit, no more getting pushed around, no more being the chew toy... You BE the big bad Alpha, the 3000 lb bear and the only boss in the room. Monster rat meets Monster human, let the best sentient being win. If he's running away from you he isn't attacking and he isn't biting and you can bond with a fearful rat if that's where you wind up, but you can't bond with an aggressive one. Extreme immersions are practices of last resort, it's take charge or put the rat through expensive surgery or put him to sleep. You have nothing to lose.

To anyone reading along... I realize the foregoing sounds horrible, and it is... but I know Stefni isn't going to intentionally hurt Whiskers, rather she's going to let herself get bit to avoid hurting his feelings... She's a wonderful person and she is kind and wants to be sweet with Whiskers, and I need to get her off that page, I just need her to stand up for herself and take charge... No matter what I tell Stefni to do, she's going to try and do it will kindness and after getting bit with apprehension.. when she really needs to be confident and assertive.

So for round 2, if you have it left in you... More armor and more attitude! Switch out of normal rat mode and into biting rat mode, you are still being the parent but your kid just attacked you and hurt you, and killed the neighbor's dog and burned down the house and you are going to do what parents do when they say "This is going to hurt me worse than it is going to hurt you..." 

This is the ONLY purpose for extreme immersion... it works because it's an extreme solution to an extreme problem. No one should ever do this with a normal rat. If it works it will save Whiskers life.

Remember, after Whiskers surrenders, you switch to normal bonding mode... but not until the combat phase is behind you.
Be strong and best luck.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I've been reading along. I was in the same boat with Iris and she is very nice now and lives with ten other rats with nary a problem. It is really hard and I feel for you, but what RD is saying is true. You can wait and get attacked, respond and he will get even meaner until finally the storm passes. I would recommend making your bf take care of it if he is willing; the idea is just to be confident and constant. Iris was to the point she'd walk around the room and bite me when she passed. Take bandaids and prep for the long run. I admit I did shorter sessions (4hr) but ALWAYS end on your positive note. So, she attacked I responded and she went meekly in the corner. I skritch her, lift her, treat her and cage her and come back when my hand stops bleeding and I stop crying. 

If it helps, remember it's be mean for a wee bit or have the rat die. It is rewarding in the end, I promise. If you can see past the medical expense, you can do it.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Oh wow. I feel like a total dumb dumb. For sure, whiskers won that battle but im sooooo not done with him yet and I would never have considered euthanizing him! 
He may have won that battle rat daddy but I WILL win the war!! Thanks for all the time you have taken to responding to my problem! I really do appreciate every word! You've actually given me some courage to be honest with you lol 
I have to remember that my wounds will heal and I have to keep trying no matter how long this will take! Let the war commence 

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stefni,

You are not a dumb dumb... You are a gentle, loving and kind person, like most of the rat owners I've worked with in extreme immersion... You would rather get bit than intentionally harm Whiskers.

But you have got to let go of the idea of taking one for the team and healing, rather you have to change your mindset to: "Whiskers, you will not bite me! I am not a chew toy!" And you have to do whatever it takes NOT to get bitten. No matter how harsh you are likely to get, a real rat alpha would be 1000 times harsher if Whiskers attacked him.

I know, no matter what I say you are always going to try to be as kind and gentle as possible. But that's not what Whiskers needs right now. Right now you are fixing what someone else broke by letting him get so out of control. 

When I was very small child, I actually remember a friend telling me that I can get whatever I wanted by throwing a temper tantrum... So I tried it... I screamed and tossed my self on the floor and cried. My mom picked me up smacked me so hard I can still remember the incident nearly 50 years later and said... "Now you have something to cry about." I never tried it again. When my daughter was two years old she tried the same trick on me in a store... I swooped her up and tossed her roughly over my shoulder and carried her out of the store kicking and screaming... I didn't need to slap her, she got the message and never tried that with me again. She continued to torture my wife for quite a bit longer, but not when I was around. Even kids can learn and for sure rats can. Rats that survive and escape rat traps never go in again. Same with mice... I accidentally let a mouse escape from a humane trap and I never caught it again. 

Whiskers will learn that he can't threaten you, he can't push you around, he can't bite you and when he tries bad things happen to HIM. AND YOU ARE NOT BACKING DOWN OR GOING AWAY! And that is the FIRST STEP towards making progress. This is COMMUNICATION, not punishment. You are not being cruel, you are saving his life. And hopefully you are not letting yourself get bit again. Upgrade your armor and stay on task... Whiskers has declared war and you are going to win...

Now what works with rats works with humans, the US is best friends with Germany and Japan... Yes, we had to bomb Germany into the stone age and nuke Japan first, but they couldn't appreciate our good intentions and friendship until after they stopped shooting at us.

Like I have said, extreme immersion is a very special purpose therapy for a certain type of rat. It's not like anything else you do with your other rats. But you are trying to save Whisker's life... Think about it, he can't play with other rats or free range with you, he isn't safe around other animals or kids and he might escape his cage and for sure he will bite you when you clean his cage of feed him or water him... With all of the potentially friendly and loving rats being fed to snakes does it really make sense to keep Whiskers locked away raging around in a cage for the rest of his life while good rats die?

Well that's your call to make, but I see fixing whiskers as saving his life, either quality of life of just life. This is serious business for both you and Whiskers. Lets not worry about the options if things don't work out and focus on success for now...

Be brave, don't get bit, armor up and best luck.


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

This is one of the scariest cases I've read about. You are so brave and I hope that things turn out well in the end.  You have such a big heart!


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## Maddie (Jan 13, 2014)

I have no advice to give (new rat owner here), but I do want to wish you the best of luck Stef! My first rat was super aggressive and at the time way back then I didn't have the resources or the insight to help her properly and lots of wounds and hard times were had. It was so bad when my mother visited she still remembered my old rat and was terrified of the boys till she saw them just running all over me and not attacking me, even my wife remembers being attacked by her when we first started dating. I think you're a wonderful source of information Rat Daddy. Wish I had all this information with my first ratty.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

From my own experience, oven mitts work the best, rats can bite through almost anything. The oven mitt works because it is so thick the teeth can't get past it *and* into your finger. They are also loose so the rat is likely to miss a finger if it does bite all the way through. 

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Truly aggressive and biting rats are really pretty uncommon. Around here, for some reason we tend to see them in waves... 

With all of the negative attention extreme immersion tends to bring to regular immersion, sometimes I wonder why I still get involved with it. It's so much easier to recommend playful interaction with friendly rats... 

But I hate to see any rat given up on without a fair fight for his life. There's actually a very good chance Whiskers can learn not to attack and bite and if he can learn that, Stafni has a good shot at socializing him into her home and family.

So, we've got to believe that Whiskers can learn to be civil and that Stefni can hang in there and teach him. I've never helped with an extreme immersion where the human hasn't cried at one point, sometimes when they succeed there are tears of joy too... 

These things are hard to watch and harder to coach because I know what's going to happen next, but they are hardest to do face to face with a monster rat. Stefni is being very brave.

I'll never forget the first time I posted the technique, I actually deleted the post before I rewrote it and hit "Post Quick Reply". I wondered if anyone would be crazy enough to lock themselves into a small space with a biting rat. But as it turned out someone was and the rat was fixed the same night and extreme immersion was suddenly the method of last resort for really screwed up rats... And since that first extreme immersion, it's been done lots of times with remarkable success. 

I think I'm more amazed than anyone else when folks work up the courage and armor up to engage their rats in an experience that's likely to get very unpleasant before it gets better. I can't imagine anyone undertaking an extreme immersion without an incredible love for their rats... 

Critics of extreme immersion say it can be rough on rats, but most don't even consider what the human goes through... I'm really proud to be a member of a group of people that will put their own well being at risk for their rats. It's easy to talk the talk but very different to walk the walk... 

I've posted about our part wild rat (recent back cross and dumped at a pet shop) and how she was a vicious rat that lived on her own outdoors for 5 months and chased away the feral cats, how she lived with pitbull terriers and how she could throw herself into the air into a ball of fury and fangs. I've written about how she shredded my next door neighbor's hand, and he was special forces just back from Iraq. And how she almost ripped Fuzzy Rat's trachea out. She was a very special rat and never backed down... and when she bit me I tossed her across a room and into a wall. We raised her from a pup, but she was always very aggressive even during play... and she always required a firm hand to manage her nature.

I recently found a few photos of her. 

One of these rats is Fuzzy Rat the true shoulder rat and the rat-co-founder of immersion. The other is a rat that would send any stranger who touched her without a proper introduction to the ER for stitches.

Can you tell who is who?















And I might note she didn't hold a grudge...

With proper socialization and bonding and an orderly human lead pack structure this is how a true monster rat behaves with her mixed family/pack.

Fluffy was way more vicious than Whiskers, she was also faster, more agile and more capable of inflicting injury. She could best be described as a very affectionate wolf. If this stone cold killer could fit so well into a human family I'm guessing most rat can be saved.



OK... for those still guessing... Fuzzy Rat was a Feeder rat and got much larger and pudgier than Fluffy, who always stayed smaller and relatively thin and lean. Fluffy was actually 3 months older than Fuzzy Rat and about 2/3 of her size. Her marking were perfect for a fancy rat and she never let a single hair get out of place, but her body shape stayed more wild type.

Fuzzy Rat is on the left, Fluffy is on the right... my daughter is in the middle... I always handled Fluffy with a lot of respect, but she let my daughter get away with murder. She was a very good monster.

So Stefni, hang in there, even truly vicious rats can become great friends and family members. You should be very proud of the work you are doing.


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Make sure you disinfect that wound thoroughly with soapy water and the antiseptic!


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

So inspiring!!!!! I believe every word you're saying rat daddy and it just all makes perfect sense!! I WILL save whiskers, it was a promise I made to him as well as myself when I adopted him even if it was without knowing his inner monster. I still love him and yes, I sometimes doubt myself because I am afraid of hurting him but I have to put my emotions aside and show him that he cant bully me anymore! I've discussed this thread with my boyfriend and he has agreed to help me since he's not as emotionally attached, I will just guide him through the extreme immersion. I'm taking things a bit slower now since I was bit, but after work everyday my boyfriend will be dedicating about 2hours to him in the evenings. I get home pretty late and I just dont want to neglect my 4 other boys.
As for my wound, im keeping a close eye on it and have disinfected it and as painful as it was I squeezed the wound open again and made sure the disinfectant got inside. It seems to be healing nicely though. 
Whiskers is gonna regret biting anyone again!! I will keep you all posted. And thanks again for all the kind words from everyone!! And a special thanks to rat daddy, you are a true legend!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

We didn't realize we were adopting a part wild rat until she was all over us mock biting us like a maniac... We stayed strong, never backed down and never tossed her back into the cage even when we were afraid... We were very lucky to have gotten her so young that she was only mock attacking us... she grew up to be a very dangerous rat.

But you can see from the photos above that even a real monster rat can love her family and be a best friend... once the proper family order is established. Even wild rats need to belong to families and love and be loved by either rats or humans they respect and trust.

As far as hurting Whiskers... I've seen rats bounce from falls over 10 feet and survive deep puncture wounds inflicted by other rats and massive traumas from accidents. They are small animals, and just because rats are durable doesn't mean anyone should abuse them, but they take a licking and keep on ticking. If you love Whiskers, it's going to be hard for you to really hurt him... You are far more likely to be too gentle than too hostile. Yes, I know this sounds like rat abuse and it's hard to put just the right amount of force required into words... but it's basically enough to be very unpleasant for Whiskers and not enough to cause real or permanent harm. If you swat him with an oven mitt and he bounces right back at you, you were too subtle... start with subtle and work your way up fast until he reacts by backing down.

And no, you don't have to put your emotions aside... seriously you just need to be honest with your emotions, getting bit should make you both sad and angry, basically you let Whiskers know how you feel. I'm thinking that if my daughter burned the house down she would be smart enough to be running for her life before my wife got home. And I'm thinking Whiskers shouldn't want to see you angry either. It's OK to feel your emotions and let your rat know how you feel as long as you can keep control and not hurt him. Rats are good at reading human behavior, being friendly to a rat that's attacking you doesn't make much sense to humans and very likely not much sense to a rat either.

And yes blessed be the boyfriends of the world, I've always thought that when they encourage their girlfriends who become committed they should be committed too. (I suppose that came out the wrong way... but I'll leave it for the sake of bad humor...) 

Actually... you really must have a very brave and understanding boyfriend, you may have adopted a problem rat, but your boyfriend sounds like a keeper... Not a lot of guys will face down biting rats for the girl he loves...

Send him my highest regards.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Hahaha thanks! And yes, he's crazy for agreeing to help but he doesn't want me getting hurt again either  reverse psychology works like a charm sometimes lol 
He did have a session with him last night, I dont think whiskers is scared of anything, even my boyfriends swinging hand or smacking him in the face with a leather hardware glove. I think its just irritating whiskers more n more. Im setting side time on Saturday again and I'm setting things straight! I've gotten to know his behaviour pretty well the past week. I can do this. Ive actually gotta do this on my own! And I am 100% confident this time! 
Do you think a 2hour session would b ok even if it doesn't seem to make him realize that I'm not one to be messed but still hopefully ending on a happy note or should I rather be safe and avoid potentially making things worse by rather having half a full day on Saturday incase things take super long? 
I just dont wanna go in it with him if after 2hours he is still biting and ends up ending the session on a "2-0 win to Whiskers".
I'm pretty sure its gonna take more than a couple hours.

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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

I get home so late after work so I dont get much time with my fuzzies along with cleaning n what-not. 
So I could spend 2hours max with whiskers every evening after work if that will work but if you think it could possibly make things worse I'll rather just do the long session on saturday. 

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## JoshDeMott2010 (Aug 25, 2007)

Rat Daddy really knows his stuff especially with troubled ratties... His advice is spot on but let me simplify some things for you Stefni. No matter how you do it your goal should be to show this rat that you are invincible once he is broke of feeling strong against you show him that he can relax and follow you. He owns you right now and he feels either extremely insecure or extremely tough. Make him feel weak but secure by becomming the leader that he is trying to be. A good leader can lead and be strong without attacking anything. I have had people complain to me about a biter and i have often taken them off the persons hand and trained them. The first thing that always happens is when i get them home i throw on a hardware glove go straight in for the biter put him in a locked room with me and I would share the space with em. The last time i did this it resulted in me taking a nap while the rat was chillin in a corner I woke up with the rat snuggled in my hoody pocket on my stomach. Rats are not indifferent to people and sometimes they need to understand who you are to them... Realize this rat could have had bad experience or little to no experience with a handler/owner. Think of how an insecure child or person behaves in the real world always lashing out and attacking others in the name of defense, This is precisely the rats mode of thinking. I think whatever would work for a human in that situation will often work for a rat just make sure to always give the rat a way out and force the rat to put up with you in close proximity whenver you can do so without cornering him.


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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

I won over Gigi by not letting her win. I killed her with kindness, especially after she bit me on the nose. When she did that I scooped her up and into the bathroom we went. A few hours later she decided I was in charge. Now I can put my hand in and push her away from something and I get no resistance period. I show no hesitation at all when I enter their domain, I'm confident and I'm the boss. They know this. I always explain this to guests who want to pet them. I tell them to not show any nervousness or fear, to reach in, let them sniff their hand, talk to them and then pat them. Never an issue. Good luck hon, aggressive ratties need all the love you can give and it takes a special kind of person to give it to them. I like you 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There are certainly rats that can viciously fear bite... But usually they back down fast when pushed against. This kind of rat usually runs away and makes a stand in the corner with it's back to the wall. It's afraid, but it isn't going down without a fight. And it can very much put up one heck of a fight because it believes it's fighting for it's life.

There's no real need to overwhelm this rat because it isn't attacking you. I've seen this kind of biting turn into a rather long standoff. And it can end well with the human coaxing the rat out from the corner... 

It's hard to say why the aggressive rat is so different. Mostly I believe it's a learned behavior. Somewhere along it's life it attacked and humans and other rats backed down. With male rats, this triggers a hormone release, very much like the cocky behavior of a winning human sports team athlete. The mentality is somewhat like "I don't lose because I won't let myself lose. I do whatever it takes to win." In certain sports you see more injuries in winning teams than in losing teams. That's because athletes in the 'I can't lose' mindset will drive themselves past common sense, good judgment and their own body's limits. I can't say fear doesn't play into the equation somewhere down deep, but it's not a fear of being harmed, it's the fear of losing status or losing the game and this is a very difficult mindset to change. And yes, we get irritated and angry and even outraged when the things we do stop producing the results we expect. Whiskers is attacking you and you aren't backing down and he's angry about it. You worked all week and on Friday your boss tells you he isn't going to pay you like he has always done and you are going to get upset about it. You worked hard all week and you expect more than a friendly handshake for it.

On human sports Elite of athletes command top dollar, they push harder, run faster, jump higher and score more goals. When the score goes against them they don't give up and drive harder. And yes, they normally have much higher hormone levels than athletes from a losing team. In a wild rat, such an aggressive attitude is a good thing. He'll become an alpha, date more girls and an attack strategy is likely to serve him well when he faces down other animals. In a pet rat, this is maladaptive behavior. 

Although I don't believe that operand conditioning should be the basis for bonding or pack building, I can't deny it has an impact on a rat's thinking. The aggressive rat learns fast that if it attacks, humans back off and other rats back down. In fact the more aggressive it is, the faster humans and other rats run for the hills. To be very clear, when an aggressive rat attack you and other rats, it's not self defense. Aggressive biting behavior continues because it works. And when aggression doesn't work, the rat will redouble it's efforts until it does. The longer this works the longer rats will hang on to this tactic.

I observed a peculiar dynamic that occurred when folks tried to trust train aggressive rats that looked something like.... Remove rat from cage, get bit, return rat to cage, rinse and repeat daily. Eventually the smarter humans avoided getting bitten by leaving the rat in the cage altogether. Rats in this state of mind often injured or killed their cage mates, especially if their roomie was bonded to the humans and not them. It's no fun being the alpha if the other rats consider the human their alpha... It's not so much jealousy as instinct. 

Very often aggressive rats just stop attacking when they finally realize it's futile, they have a light bulb moment. They realize they can't win, they aren't in charge and there's no use in continuing the battle. It can be quite surprising for the humans because the rat attacks most fiercely right before it's about to give up.... It's the one last drive for the goal phenomenon. Sure the team has been losing the whole game but suddenly as the clock is running out they seem to wake up and play like they haven't all day. And rats are very much the same, some will be fiercest when they feel all is nearly lost... They will put everything they have left into one final push to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat... Then suddenly they stop attacking and might even snuggle up to you. In some sports the losing team customarily shakes the hands of the winning team and shirts might be exchanged... With rats a good sport loser will roll over and let the winner groom his belly. And the winner reciprocates by showing affection and respect to the loser.

The long session has the advantage of tiring the rat out and wearing him down, it's hard to keep attacking for hours, rats aren't built for sustained combat. They fight in bursts using a great deal of energy to overwhelm their opponents quickly, normal rats retreat rapidly from a fight they aren't going to win, but keep in mind, Whiskers might have won lots of fights before you got him and he has experience that if he stays on the offensive he will overcome. 

As to two hour sessions... these are usually too short to overcome a really screwed up rat in a single session, but cumulatively they can have an impact. I suppose you have to gauge the level of aggression over the course of the session, if Whiskers becomes less aggressive over the course of the two hours, it's working, if not then he thinks he is winning and the longer session is going to be more effective... Please keep one thing in mind, if you find you really are making progress, toss the clock away and keep going. If he stops attacking and starts behaving nicely, you don't just stop, you play through and reward his better behavior with skritches and belly rubs. If he naps on you, you don't toss him into the cage because the clock says game over. This is where you switch gears and go into normal immersion mode and start bonding. In other words if he surrenders, he expects you to accept his surrender and be there for him, he certainly doesn't expect to be tossed in the cage and rejected after making such a great sacrifice. And if this means losing a little sleep... it's better than getting attacked tomorrow all over again.

If you feel you are making progress in two hour sessions keep them up and still plan for Saturday, if you feel there's no affect or that he's getting more confident every session then it's too short. 

Keep one thing in mind every time a sports time loses, it gets more demoralized and becomes less likely to win the next game. Sometimes even good teams get on a losing streak and start losing to inferior teams. Basically studies done on rat show that when an alpha gets dethroned his hormone levels drop. Victory increases his hormone load and defeat reduces it, elite athletes that lose games experience a very real depression because their hormones recede. It's more than just losing a game, it's a real physiological change in their brain chemistry.

So that's the theory... Intellectually Whiskers has to know he can't win and he can't dominate you, then his hormones will return to normal, the longer he's been pushing people around the longer he's going to cling on to his dreams of domination. The more defeats and the more demoralizing the defeats, the less likely he will be to continue the attack and the more his hormones will drop and the closer you are to the final all out attack and then submission.

Unless Whiskers has some form of brain damage or mental illness, he won't go on fighting forever. So stay strong, don't get bitten and stay on the offensive. I know it's not easy... but the sooner that Whiskers can appreciate your kindness and love the sooner you can start to show him what he's missing now.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I made progress with two hour sessions but I also spent other time messin with the rat. Put the cage near your bed or where you spend a lot o time. That way, when you aren't battling you can still mess with the rat. It also helps because a lot of people find they won outside the cage but not inside. Treat him copiously, or just read to him, fiddle with bedding and his houses. Yes, invade his territory. I'd also make her sit with (usually by carrying her in tuperware!) while I did some chores, or something inane. I'd let her ride on my shoulder, but you can imagine convincing a mean rat to come up to shoulder and then not literally bite your face off is hard.

But you need to spend all two hours interacting. With the longer sessions, usually there is an eye in the storm where you're bleeding and the rat is considering its tactics. During its deliberations, you don't bug them. They could come out the corner with teeth and claws or to explore you in a tentatively nice way. With your two hour sessions, no breaks. Come with bandaids for quick fixes. You want to be touching, exploring, treating, fighting etc him at every minute. Don't set aside two hours, just go in there with a plan of what your goal is (go without a bite in thirty minutes? respond to a bite and make him think?). I'd recommend ending the session after somethin momentous occurs. And with bitin rats, somethin momentous occurs almost any time you aren't backin down. The rat came over to look at you closely without biting, or perhaps you approached him and weren't bit; he took a treat without a bloodprice. I just don't want an alarm goin off sayin its bed time and you packin him up when nothin happened.


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## sherlockandwatson (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm really sorry about your situation. If it's any help you can use a small spray bottle if he won't stop biting you or is about to bite. If he dosn't stop after the spray bottle give him a firm hit (not to hard of course) and say no like you would to a dog.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Thanks again for everyones help and kindness!! I have been persevering since I posted this thread and have made quite a bit of progress although whiskers has not quite surrendered lol 
I can however stroke him now, clean the cage without being bitten and so forth but I've been doing it slowly because he associates mittens and gloves of all sorts to be very intimidating and he immediately attacks. I use my bare hands and he does try nipping here n there and took a chunk out of my boyfriends hand too but I find the gloves just make him totally insane. He can be very sweet sometimes but he gets wacky after a while and then starts tearing things apart as if to scare me but I have just been persistent and calm as much as possible. 
I really hope that things just keep progressing. I was wondering whether it might be good idea for me to introduce to him a much younger cage mate at this time? I hate the fact that he's been alone for so long. I wouldnt put him with my other boys because 2 of them are also going through hormonal changes themselves. Would it make a difference if his cage mate was younger or not?

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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Not yet. You can't have another rat in there until you've got the psycho out of him. At the very least because if intros were to not work you need to be able to safely intervene and instruct. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stefni,

Progress is good. I agree, until he's under control he'll most likely only hurt other cage mates.

By this point, he should be backing off when he sees mittens or gloves, not attacking them.

Can you describe what you have been doing with him? And how he responds?

If he's still trying to push you around he still hasn't gotten the message. At a certain point, you need to decide whether he can get the message. There are very few rats that can't learn, but I'm starting to get concerned about Whiskers.

Speaking about whiskers... our girl Max singed her whiskers on the gas burners on the stove, she didn't get hurt and her whiskers grew back, but she never went near an open flame of any kind since. One split second experience and she knows better now. It's been a while and your Whiskers should be getting the message that gloves mean to run, not attack.

Still, progress is good...


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## Daize (Jun 8, 2013)

Stefni said:


> Thanks again for everyones help and kindness!! I have been persevering since I posted this thread and have made quite a bit of progress although whiskers has not quite surrendered lol
> I can however stroke him now, clean the cage without being bitten and so forth but I've been doing it slowly because he associates mittens and gloves of all sorts to be very intimidating and he immediately attacks. I use my bare hands and he does try nipping here n there and took a chunk out of my boyfriends hand too but I find the gloves just make him totally insane. He can be very sweet sometimes but he gets wacky after a while and then starts tearing things apart as if to scare me but I have just been persistent and calm as much as possible.
> I really hope that things just keep progressing. I was wondering whether it might be good idea for me to introduce to him a much younger cage mate at this time? I hate the fact that he's been alone for so long. I wouldnt put him with my other boys because 2 of them are also going through hormonal changes themselves. Would it make a difference if his cage mate was younger or not?
> 
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My friend sort of had a similar problem with her rat, Charlie. He would always bite her no matter how much she tried. She's always have bandages on her fingers, arms, and hands. She'd be holding him for hours at a time. She made a bonding pouch or let him ride in her pockets or hoodie. She'd sit with him on the couch or just let him free range. He'd take treats from her hand and allow her to stroke him. Still, almost daily, he'd bite her.

I always thought he just liked how she tasted. After all, she was the "only" one who was ever bitten by Charlie. Everyone else could handle him with no problems. 

Anyway, she started bringing Charlie over to play with my rat, Belle. They got along great and she was hoping that spending time with Belle would make Charlie calmer and more accepting of her. For a while it seemed to work, but she was still getting bit by Charlie fairly often. After about 2 months of coming over to visit, Charlie made the mistake of "sniffing Belle's butt"....... Belle must have been sizing him up for a long time in case this happened. It only took her a split second to turn on him and rip out one of his........ testicles. He was immediately taken to the vet. He ended up getting neutered. It's not exactly what my friend ever wanted. She really didn't believe in spaying/neutering. 

As it turns out. The neutering helped a "LOT". Charlie, over time (5 to 6 weeks), became very calm with his owner. He only bit her one more time after the neuter. That was at the vet when the staples were being removed. I'm guessing he reacted badly, because he was in a little pain at the time. Now my friend still doesn't believe in spaying/neutering and she wouldn't ever intentionally have it done. However, she now refers to his "neutering" as a "happy accident". I'm still feeling bad/guilty for what Belle did, but my friend is able to make cute jokes about the incident. 

Now Charlie is just as sweet and loving with his owner as he's always been to everyone else. Somehow.... I still think Charlie just liked the way she tasted. LOL.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually if Charlie was only biting your friend Daize, it's because he knew he could get away with pushing her around. Most likely he wasn't stupid or brave enough to try it with you and Belle wasn't going to put up with it either. Belle knew where he was headed and cut him off before at the pass.

I'm a very soft touch, one of my rats is napping on my desk munching a peach the other is sleeping somewhere inside my furniture... They get away with just about everything and take advantage of me at every turn... but biting me is a mistake no rat has ever made twice. It's also a mistake no dog every tried to make twice... Responding very adversely to being bitten comes naturally to me, it's not something I really can control, and rats are so smart they seem to get it somewhere between being launched into the air and hitting the wall... And the only rat that ever bit me followed me around to apologize while I was still dressing my wound. She was part wild and vicious at the core, but she was my very best buddy and first rat to come when called for the rest of her life. Some rats need to respect you to love you.

I may have learned the lesson accidentally, as did our rat, but it's one that stuck for both of us. I don't put up with being bitten, and rats don't bite me, and it works great for everyone.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Just an update. Thought I'd share some pics  sorry for the bad quality, he moves around alot lol I still don't think that whiskers is ready to be friends with other rats though and I'm not taking any chances, so for now he will have to be my little loner rattie until I am confident to introduce him to his brothers

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## Ergala (Jan 23, 2014)

Look! No blood or oven mitts!!!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I can't make out any bite marks or oven mitts either! And that's great! 

I don't think you need to rush the intros... Whiskers has you as a friend now and that will help him keep his emotional balance for a while, it's just going to absorb more of your time...

But intros will go better as long as you closely supervise them... In the wild the alpha rat decides who belongs to the pack and who doesn't and the pack follows the alpha's lead. As you are the alpha, you get to lead now. 

Like a general, looking at a map, making battle plans is easier from a distance. It's always harder actually being in the trenches and executing the plan. I understand that. So just because I'm making it sound simple, I know it will be nerve wracking. Still by being in the middle and managing the intros hands on you can show Whiskers that you accept the other rats and that he should too... 

I realize it's hard to imagine with how small rats are that their brains are so sophisticated... It sounds strange that much of the fighting we see between rats is due to lack of human leadership. When a rat goes alpha he often sees his human as his competition for leadership and beats up the rats that are loyal to the humans. There can only be one alpha and if all of the other rats are following someone else, it's a problem he will resolve with violence... he will either punish or try to drive off disloyal rats... This is why you see aggressive rats attacking both their humans and their pack-mates. They see the human as a challenger and their cage-mates as traitors.

And this is the theoretical basis for fixing the human bond first. So with the theory to keep in your mind is "I'm leading the meeting, I'm the drill sergeant and all of my soldiers follow me." 

I know it's easier to say something than to do it... but I find that everything works better when you have a strategic goal in mind. This way you can tweak the theory, flavor it to your taste and execute it with flair.


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## Stefni (Aug 10, 2013)

Yup no mitts but most of all and most importantly, no more fear, I decided that I can't be afraid anymore if I want to help him so I ignored my fear I had before and gradually began putting my hand in the cage to do usual cleaning etc and basically acted as though he wasn't even there lol I did this for quite a few days and then I started brushing past him as I went about my usual business, he woulf in turn ignore me or sometimes he would try sniffing which I allowed him to do so long as he didn't bite, on the occasions he bit I smacked him over his head (yes I know alot of people will probably think this is cruel but im sorry it was the only way with him) and he would retreat and sit somewhere else until he was ready to approach me only to sniff again. He eventually got the picture. I do realize that this couldve been achieved alot quicker if I hadn't developed this intense fear for him before which is why I would like to just say to anyone out there struggling with being afraid of an aggressive rat, they surely sense this amd it really just makes it worse. As difficult as it may be, you've got to take a gulp and trust what I'm saying! 
Whiskers is extremely intelligent!! I say this becausr he knows the limits now, I know it took some time but I dont think he was taken proper care of before and his previous owner emotionally damaged him by ignoring him to the point of him possibly killing his own cage mate.
Once I feel that he trusts me and fully accepts me as his leader I will start with intros keeping a seriously close eye! I cannot express the amount of relief I've felt about this lately!! Rat daddy you have Truely helped me a tremendous amount and everyone elses support has been great also!!!! Thanks so much for all the help so far. Will keep you posted on the progress in a couple dayd again 

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Stefni,

You've been very brave. I know how hard it is to face down a biting rat. You should be very proud of yourself!

I'm gratified that you found some of my advise helpful and am looking forward to hearing about all of the great things ahead for you both.


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