# I had to take Carmel back :<



## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

She had a neurological issue. She would rock from side to side for hours on end. So, I had to take her back. Good news, I got another rat! Shes a baby, soooo cute and sooo little. Very timid. But the cutest thing is that my adult rat welcomed her like so well, and I was giving her treats, and she would take them and give them to the baby. <3 it was the most precious thing ive ever seen!


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

Are you sure she had a neurological issue? Did you have someone check in to her? Sometimes rats sway back and forth because of their poor sight. My youngest seems to be doing that every time I look at him. There isn't anything wrong with him.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

probably just poor eyesight
poor little thing


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## Eden10 (Aug 11, 2012)

Agreed...was it a ruby eyed or pink eyed rattie? They are very prone to doing this & they only do it to help them focus better...there's nothing wrong with them at all. Unless of course a vet confirmed your little one had something seriously wrong.


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## PeachPeach (Jun 22, 2012)

My boys bob their heads around, as was mentioned above they're pink eyed whites and their vision is terrible. It looks a little strange and could be mistaken for a tic or brain issue, but in actuality they're healthy and it is very normal for rats, especially of their variety.

Did you have it verified that something was wrong with her by a professional? It would be quite sad to have the poor rat sent away just for being normal!


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

My boys both shake they're head to focus, blue does it a lot more then mumble but its nothing that's wrong with them, it's like us wearing glasses in a way, however about your new baby that's pretty cute, 


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

Unless you've had it confirmed by a vet

Then I'm gonna say it was just poor eye sight. It's common in rats. 


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## Ruka (Dec 20, 2012)

Poor rattie.. Are you sure it wasn't poor eyesight?


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## trematode (Sep 8, 2012)

You took her back instead of doing research or getting her checked out by a vet? Uhhhh... well... that rat is probably in a worse situation depending on where you get her. Hopefully not a pet store.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

trematode said:


> You took her back instead of doing research or getting her checked out by a vet? Uhhhh... well... that rat is probably in a worse situation depending on where you get her. Hopefully not a pet store.


I agree, my boys have had sneezes since I got them, I made a choice to get them and look after them, not their fault if they have problems, you just have to give that extra time and effort which with cuties like rats that's more of a pleasure, :/ 


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

You can't just swap rats for different ones like that, they're an animal! It's not like having a toy that's broken! What kind of rat was she? As others have said, rats with red/ruby eyes have reduced eyesight so they sway to adjust their vision and perception of objects and their surroundings. Please don't tell me you just assumed this was a neurological problem and didn't do any research? You should be fully informed of the basics of rats before getting them as pets... I hope she isn't in a worse situation now.

Also I noticed you're young, 14 I believe? Not meaning to sound ageist or anything but perhaps you're too young to take care of rats in particular, they require a lot more research and understanding than a hamster etc (I'm well aware some forum users are around this age and are more than capable such as LightingWolf). Looking at your intro pic it looks like Carmel had dark ruby eyes and this could've meant she had poorer vision, meaning she needed to sway to see. Please do some informed research now about rats for the sake of your two girls.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Where did you get her from? If its somewhere near me I will have to go get her, 


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Ratfinx said:


> Where did you get her from? If its somewhere near me I will have to go get her,
> 
> 
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Her location is in the USA, so I don't think that will work out so well. In any event, I hope she's OK and has gone to a loving home by now.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah I've just seen rumy, poor little gal  same, I hope she's got a home and its being extremely babied! 


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Is*


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Ratfinx said:


> Yeah I've just seen rumy, poor little gal  same, I hope she's got a home and its being extremely babied!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, I checked as soon as I saw your post because I thought that would be very sweet.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

I just feel so bad for her, I wish I could of helped, I'm sorry if people don't agree with me but I'm a new rat owner and researched for months before I got my two, and asked people questions who I knew had rats and joined this forum for more support and back up after I got them, this person really doesn't seem to understand rats or know much about them, I know I'm not an expert in rats but I try to research as much as I can to make sure I'm not doing something wrong and other ideas to help them, I think this girl wants a rat with no problems or one that will constantly cuddle, sorry if I'm wrong but that how it comes across to me, that poor little lady  


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## Imthemomma (Nov 29, 2012)

This is so sad. I just rehomed a pair of babies, one of which was a ruby eyed cream hooded girl and she would weave her head back and forth. I made sure to educate the new owner that this is only her eyesight and that it was normal. Its to bad that this girls previous owner didn't do the same for her. 


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## tori_m (Mar 5, 2013)

aw  it makes me really sad that you sent the rattie away...
i'm sure she was still a very loving, social girl, and if it's true it was only her eyesight...  i just hope she is in a loving forever home now!


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

Are you anywhere near MN? Because I'd go get her (if she's still around) I'm so sad by this, and concerned. 

I cannot imagine she took the baby to the vet because a vet isn't going to say "yep, this one has a neurological disorder, take it back" UNLESS she got it from a reputable breeder, I know some of them will take babies who are ill back, treat them, rehab them and set them for adootion.

I cannot imagine the stupidity of the people at the petstore at which she probably acquired her that didn't question this 'neurological disorder" How they would have exchanged a rat without educating. I even think the cruddy petland down the road knows that light eyed rats will sway. 

The stress and trauma of relocating that poor thing has been through over the last week or so. It's just so saddening.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Poor baby. Even a breeder would of told you that it was her eye sight. That is simply a rat that has bad eye sights, my rat Soda does it all the time.

If I were you, I would go and get her back ASAP. I can't imagine how much stress that rat is going through right now, especially if your other rat was her cage mate. Rats form very close bonds to each other.If you can't get her back, can you at least give us where your located, and possibly even the pet store you returned her too? I wouldn't be able to get her having males, but I know other people would.

As everyone is saying, rats are living animals. Just because they seem off, or may even be ill, doesn't mean you get rid of them for another. That's like if someone was born with an issue (take me with Scoliosis) and decided to trade them off for a child who wasn't disabled or had an illness, ect. 

Me and my parents are actually hoping to prepare a better rat kit cause we've been lucky so far, but we know one day we're going to get a rat that just gets sick a lot or has some type of an issue. I had a rat with Hypothyroidism, which caused him to be aggressive (though he was a complete momma's boy), I took care of him for his entire life (he sadly left us Feb. 3, at 18 months old).


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes, I'm totally sure it was neurological. That wasn't the only problem. She was just strange. She didn't act right. She was still afraid of every day sounds that every rodent I've EVER had (And I've had a lot) got used to in the first couple of days. Anyways, its not like she would do it every so often. She would sit on top of the igloo and rock for hours at a time. Plus, my mom also thought it was neurological, as she knows a lot about those types of things. She works with people with disabilities and stuff.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

She wasn't Albino. (If that's what we call it. ) or pink eyed or anything. She was mostly brown and white.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Please, please go back and get her. You made a promise to her when you adopted her and there is likely nothing wrong with her.

Also, some rats must be worked with for some time to adjust their behavior. This is something that you signed up for when you adopted rats.

Your mother does not likely have any exotic veterinary education and would not be able to diagnosis a neurological issue.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes I know it could have been poor eye sight. But Im telling you guys, and you're gonna have to believe me, something else was wrong besides that. Even the people at the pet store, and the vet who worked there, said that something was very wrong. It was not typical rodent behavior. I've had elder rodents whose vision went as they got older, and I know what you're talking about. But yeah. It made me really sad, but there was nothing I could do. :/


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

ViolaQueen said:


> Yes I know it could have been poor eye sight. But Im telling you guys, and you're gonna have to believe me, something else was wrong besides that. Even the people at the pet store, and the vet who worked there, said that something was very wrong. It was not typical rodent behavior. I've had elder rodents whose vision went as they got older, and I know what you're talking about. But yeah. It made me really sad, but there was nothing I could do. :/


When you adopt an animal, you agree to care for their issues. This includes rats.

If a dog got sick, most people would not just take it back from whence it came. They take it to the vet.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Guys, I can't go back and get her now. I know it seems mean but I can't. Plus, I only had her for a few days. :-/ So It's not like we were best friends. She never acknowledged me or anything. Something was _very seriously wrong _​with her, and she will now be adopted out to someone who will have the extra time and patience to care for a special needs rat. Thank you.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Hello ratclaws. I would just like to let you know I am _not_ your typical 14-year-old. I completely understand that rats are more work than hamsters. When I was 12, I dealt with an accidental litter all by myself, as noone in my family likes rodents. All of the babies survived, and so did the mother. I've had many rodents, and yes, I have taken care of ill animals also. I've had a guinea pig with a URI, bumble foot, and a UTI all at the same time. Guess what? Got meds, took care of it by myself. I am homeschooled, and I have the time to take care of my pets. I am also very mature for my age, and take things I love very seriously. Thanks.


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

ViolaQueen said:


> Plus, I only had her for a few days. :-/ So It's not like we were best friends. She never acknowledged me or anything. .


This is just a really horrible, selfish statement to make. Like other's have said when you picked her out, she bacame yours, issues and all. Obviously there wasn't anything seriously wrong with her since she is still available for someone else to have her. You wanted a perfect animal that didn't require any more time than what YOU wanted to spend with her.

Honestly, you shouldn't have rats, you seem to be lacking the compassion these wonderful animals deserve.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

*Please, please, PLEASE, hear me out. (About Carmel.)*

Guys, I know you all are upset about Carmel. It made me* so* sad to take her back. You guys have literally no idea what I felt leaving her there. It felt like I was leaving my child for dead. I know it doesn't seem right, but something was _very seriously_ not right. Her behavior was not normal, she was also very violent towards my other rat, Fudge. No normal animal will sit in one spot in a corner and rock back and forth for 4, 5, 6 hours straight. It wasn't just like she was trying to see. I had her checked out by the vet at the pet store I bought her from, and even she said that it would probably be best to leave her with them because something was very wrong. I would rather have her be taken care of someone who knows what they are doing with a disabled rat, than me. I've had many rodents, elders who have lost sight as they've gotten older. I've taken care of a 3-year-old rat whose eye sight was barely there. I know the difference between rocking when they have poor vision and between a neurological disorder. Please do not be angry with me any longer. I did it both for the well being of Carmel, and for Fudge. (The violence.) 

Thank you for your understanding.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

JLSaufl said:


> This is just a really horrible, selfish statement to make. Like other's have said when you picked her out, she bacame yours, issues and all. Obviously there wasn't anything seriously wrong with her since she is still available for someone else to have her. You wanted a perfect animal that didn't require any more time than what YOU wanted to spend with her.
> 
> Honestly, you shouldn't have rats, you seem to be lacking the compassion these wonderful animals deserve.


I'm serious. She basically hated me and everyone around her. She didnt want anything to do with me or her cage mate. She would only hurt her and bite her.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Guys I tried to post a thread about Carmel, but It got deleted. It basically said this: She really had a very serious problem, I DID have her checked by the vet at the pet store, and she said it was best to leave her with them because of her problem. She was also very violent towards my other rat, Fudge. Carmel is (or maybe already has) going to be adopted out to a home with someone specialized in taking care of rats with disabilities. Please do not be angry, as some of these comments have offended me and make me quite sad. I feel that someone with more experience with rats like Carmel can give her the time, patience, and love she deserves. I would never just hand her off without knowing she would be alright. But I know it wasn't her eyesight. I've taken care of elderly rats, who rocked because of poor eyesight. This is not what she was doing. She would sit in the corner for 4, 5, 6 hours at a time and rock back and forth. I felt so bad about leaving her, and I didn't just trade her. I took Carmel to be with someone who knows about her situation. The only reason I adopted the little baby girl I have now is because 1.) Fudge is very social and deserves to have a quality bond with another gal of her species. 2.) When I saw this girl, she was all alone and scared. Just a little baby. All alone. What would you do? Just leave her? I don't think so. I made this decision for both the well being of Fudge, AND Carmel.

Hopefully you all will understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

It was not deleted. It was merged with this thread because there was no reason to create a new thread. Check the previous page and you will find the post.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

ViolaQueen said:


> Guys I tried to post a thread about Carmel, but It got deleted. It basically said this: She really had a very serious problem, I DID have her checked by the vet at the pet store, and she said it was best to leave her with them because of her problem. She was also very violent towards my other rat, Fudge. Carmel is (or maybe already has) going to be adopted out to a home with someone specialized in taking care of rats with disabilities. Please do not be angry, as some of these comments have offended me and make me quite sad. I feel that someone with more experience with rats like Carmel can give her the time, patience, and love she deserves. I would never just hand her off without knowing she would be alright. But I know it wasn't her eyesight. I've taken care of elderly rats, who rocked because of poor eyesight. This is not what she was doing. She would sit in the corner for 4, 5, 6 hours at a time and rock back and forth. I felt so bad about leaving her, and I didn't just trade her. I took Carmel to be with someone who knows about her situation. The only reason I adopted the little baby girl I have now is because 1.) Fudge is very social and deserves to have a quality bond with another gal of her species. 2.) When I saw this girl, she was all alone and scared. Just a little baby. All alone. What would you do? Just leave her? I don't think so. I made this decision for both the well being of Fudge, AND Carmel.
> 
> Hopefully you all will understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> Thanks.


Now you've explained yourself better this seems a lot more redeeming. You have to be careful how you explain things on forums, especially one where fans of rats are going to be defensive of them.


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

IMHO you sound like a 14 year old that was in the wrong. Reading this thread in its entireity, and witnessing new excuses pop up at every reply, and no admittance whatsoever that you were in the wrong furthers my conviction you have no business owning a rat -- or anything live. 

You can't trade rats like cards - you can't trade a "broken" animal for an okay one - it is your responsibility when you take that animal home to ensure it is taken care of regardleSs of its flaws. PLEASE, spare me the excuses - "it didn't like me, it swayed its head" - this is the condemning mark of a juvenile mind. The mature mind will make the situation work. I'm more disgusted with your mother for encouraging your behavior than anything. The poor rat has already endured remarkable trauma and you just throw it back in a cage to swap with another thing that meets your convenience? I doubt very seriously there was anything wrong with the rat - there is something wrong with you for JUSTIFYING your wrong behavior. For the record, the behavior your rat was exhibiting is text mark "stress weaving" behavior - comes from a rat being extremely nervous. You could have fixed that. 

I sincerely hope you learn from being lambasted here - an at the very least DO something to fix your wildly terrible behavior/mistake.


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

Also.. You obviously don't know much about rat care taking if you're already tossing your new rat in with your old.. No wonder your "neurological" rat wouldn't get along - you didn't give it any time or quarantine or introductory period.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't think she had a "neurological issue" I just think she had a very tricky temperament. I can understand your reasons for giving her back IF it was genuinely because you thought you couldn't deal with a rat with such a nervous temperament but seeing as you have experience with rodents I thought you'd be well versed. I told you rats are different, they're more like keeping tiny dogs. If you picked her with that temperament you should have at least tried to see if you could change her behaviour. I tried for 6 months before making alternative arrangements for my skittish girl and I had her go with an already established pack whom she was familiar with.


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## Ruka (Dec 20, 2012)

LightningWolf said:


> Poor baby. Even a breeder would of told you that it was her eye sight. That is simply a rat that has bad eye sights, my rat Soda does it all the time.
> 
> If I were you, I would go and get her back ASAP. I can't imagine how much stress that rat is going through right now, especially if your other rat was her cage mate. Rats form very close bonds to each other.If you can't get her back, can you at least give us where your located, and possibly even the pet store you returned her too? I wouldn't be able to get her having males, but I know other people would.
> 
> ...


As a person that runs a rescue, this really worries me.. Poor girl.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

I really hope Carmel gets adopted...... but.......


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## catland (Sep 3, 2012)

are you guys seriously attacking at KID for deciding that she can't handle a special needs pet. We didn't see the rat so we can't say if it had problems or not, but ViolaQueen does not deserve this. Maybe it was best for her to be returned so am more experienced and equipped to handle Carmel. I know I wouldn't keep at rat who wasn't suitable for more experience level or did not get along with my rats.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Ruka said:


> As a person that runs a rescue, this really worries me.. Poor girl.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What did I say that made you worried? (since you did quote me comment)

Anyways, I'm still not sure how I stand on this issue, I am a bit upset at you But I'm not going to make anymore comments on your behavior, it's just not worth it in the end. Granite, I have different view points even though we're basically the same age. Honestly, if that rat had issues with other rats and had neurological issues (it might actually be that, But it could of also been other things like an ear infection) I would of either asked a local rescue to find her a home that can help her, find someone who knows how to help her, or honestly, put her down. I wouldn't of brought her back to the pet store. I also question most vets at pet stores, most don't seem to know what they're talking about.

What state do you live in? (and what city?). Someone on here might be able to adopt her that can take care of her properly.


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## Lioness (Nov 11, 2011)

catland said:


> are you guys seriously attacking at KID for deciding that she can't handle a special needs pet. We didn't see the rat so we can't say if it had problems or not, but ViolaQueen does not deserve this. Maybe it was best for her to be returned so am more experienced and equipped to handle Carmel. I know I wouldn't keep at rat who wasn't suitable for more experience level or did not get along with my rats.


A rat that is jumpy, shy, and does not react well to a strange rat _after only a couple of days in a new home_ should in no way be labeled a "special needs pet" that cannot be handled and so has to be "returned".
How can anyone - even really experienced rodent people - decide that a rat is simply too weird or too much to handle after only a couple of days? The poor thing hasn't even had time to calm down from the trip home yet.

So, yes, this behavior should not be accepted in the rat community. There's no need to be mean about it, but this was extremely irresponsible and impulsive.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Ok. I'm really sorry. I have learned from this experience, and the best I can do now is not repeat it. Can someone please lock this thread so it doesn't keep getting bumped? Thanks


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

catland said:


> are you guys seriously attacking at KID for deciding that she can't handle a special needs pet. We didn't see the rat so we can't say if it had problems or not, but ViolaQueen does not deserve this. Maybe it was best for her to be returned so am more experienced and equipped to handle Carmel. I know I wouldn't keep at rat who wasn't suitable for more experience level or did not get along with my rats.


I'd say attacking is very melodramatic. Nobody has been attacking her in the slightest, just speaking critically about her actions. It's not as if people have ganged up on her, people have been posting their personal opinions on the matter and the almost unanimous viewpoint just validates the forum's reaction. She didn't even try to look after her... Trust me I've been there with my girl Hazel. She's now living with my girlfriend's rats as she's in a much better environment but I did try to change her nervous temperament over the course of 6 months, before doing what was best for her and myself in the long run. 2/3 days is certainly not long enough.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Viola, why don't you just give us the state that your in. if someone that is in your state (or close) can take care of her, they can send you a PM to get more details on where she is at in hopes of adopting her since your worried about her being adopted.

No one is trying to gang up on her, at least I hope not, I'm honestly trying to be as respectful as possible even though this does bug me a bit, granite since you can't really show your tone of voice on the Internet, that's kind of hard judge (Sorry Viola if I ever sounded dis-respectful in any of my posts, I did not mean to make you upset). 

Also, Viola, not sure if any mods are on here tonight, you can send them a PM to lock the thread if you really want to. Though I would at least give us a state so that someone you know is on here at least as a chance of adopting her before you lock this thread. that's just my suggestion though.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm very sorry.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

Can you please tell me who the mods are? Thanks


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

LightningWolf said:


> Viola, why don't you just give us the state that your in. if someone that is in your state (or close) can take care of her, they can send you a PM to get more details on where she is at in hopes of adopting her since your worried about her being adopted.No one is trying to gang up on her, at least I hope not, I'm honestly trying to be as respectful as possible even though this does bug me a bit, granite since you can't really show your tone of voice on the Internet, that's kind of hard judge (Sorry Viola if I ever sounded dis-respectful in any of my posts, I did not mean to make you upset). Also, Viola, not sure if any mods are on here tonight, you can send them a PM to lock the thread if you really want to. Though I would at least give us a state so that someone you know is on here at least as a chance of adopting her before you lock this thread. that's just my suggestion though.


I agrees just state and city, I know there are people here willing to take care of her, myself included, despite any issues she may have.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

y'all need to seriously take a chill pill. The girl is 14 years old and you can't just say she is giving excuses (yea a previous poster said just that) and not listen to what she is saying. You have no idea exactly what was going on with the rat and you can't say she was lying either because you don't know that for certain. You guys are being really mean and rude to a kid, and i'm disappointed and quite sickened that the mods are allowing this type of behavior knowing that voila is just a child. IF you guys are adults then act like it and stop with the crap! She made a mistake and she said sorry for it. Leave it at that. She said she had the rat checked over by a vet and the vet confirmed that something was wrong. She didn't just decided that she didn't like the rat and take it back. To say she shouldn't own pets or that she is selfish is just wrong on so many levels. To Viola, i am sorry that it didn't work out with her and hopefully now she'll have a home with someone who really can take care of her properly and who understands her issues. Don't listen to the the crap being thrown at you. I hope that you don't allow this to turn you away from the forum because not everyone is so judgmental and rude to those who make mistakes


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## catland (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolaQueen said:


> Can you please tell me who the mods are? Thanks


try cagedbirdsinging


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

ratclaws said:


> I'd say attacking is very melodramatic. Nobody has been attacking her in the slightest, just speaking critically about her actions. It's not as if people have ganged up on her, people have been posting their personal opinions on the matter and the almost unanimous viewpoint just validates the forum's reaction. She didn't even try to look after her... Trust me I've been there with my girl Hazel. She's now living with my girlfriend's rats as she's in a much better environment but I did try to change her nervous temperament over the course of 6 months, before doing what was best for her and myself in the long run. 2/3 days is certainly not long enough.


 I say calling her names, saying she is giving bull **** excuses, and telling her she is selfish and shouldn't own pets is attacking her. Not melodramatic in the least.


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## mistymornings18 (Aug 13, 2012)

ratchet said:


> IMHO you sound like a 14 year old that was in the wrong. Reading this thread in its entireity, and witnessing new excuses pop up at every reply, and no admittance whatsoever that you were in the wrong furthers my conviction you have no business owning a rat -- or anything live.
> 
> You can't trade rats like cards - you can't trade a "broken" animal for an okay one - it is your responsibility when you take that animal home to ensure it is taken care of regardleSs of its flaws. PLEASE, spare me the bullshit excuses - "it didn't like me, it swayed its head" - this is the condemning mark of a juvenile mind. The mature mind will make the situation work. I'm more disgusted with your mother for encouraging your behavior than anything. The poor rat has already endured remarkable trauma and you just throw it back in a cage to swap with another thing that meets your convenience? I doubt very seriously there was anything wrong with the rat - there is something wrong with you for JUSTIFYING your wrong behavior. For the record, the behavior your rat was exhibiting is text mark "stress weaving" behavior - comes from a rat being extremely nervous. You could have fixed that.
> 
> I sincerely hope you learn from being lambasted here - an at the very least DO something to fix your wildly terrible behavior/mistake.


Since the mods obviously don't care to say anything to you i will. Voila is a child. you are being rude and behaving very childishly. You need to step back and stop attacking a child over a mistake. You say she has a juvenile mind, well your emotional response is that of a juvenile so you're no better then she is!! Just because you FEEL that the behavior was stress related does not mean you are correct. She is going by what she was told by a VET, are you a vet? Do you have any schooling under your belt for animal medicine? If not you have no leg to stand on but your opinion and you know what they say about those! There is something wrong with YOU for attacking a child based on a bunch of ASSumptions you formed from her replies. Leave the kid alone and behave like an adult. If someone was attacking my kid like you are attacking her, I'd be pissed!!! I'd go as far as to call you an internet bully and involve the site owner over it.


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## KelseyShea (Jan 20, 2013)

I've been watching this thread for a bit, and to piggyback on what mistymornings said,
I can see why people are so upset at the situation. That being said, if there was nothing wrong at all with Caramel, yes it was a poor decision to let her go. But harsh words over the internet probably aren't the best way to handle things. All that will do is turn someone off and make them not so receptive to constructive criticism. If Caramel did have said issues, it's unfortunate, and each person has their own opinion on how to handle that situation. (Be it finding someone else for care or keeping the rat)
Viola, the best you can do now is learn from this, and become a better rat owner from the experience. Don't ignore everything people have said in this thread, there is some good advice in there, and plenty of people willing to give Caramel a shot if it's still possible.
Hope that made sense.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

mistymornings18 said:


> I say calling her names, saying she is giving bull **** excuses, and telling her she is selfish and shouldn't own pets is attacking her. Not melodramatic in the least.


You are referring to only a couple of members here. If you read my post again it says "almost unanimous". Don't take all of our opinions as harshly as the one you're referring to please. I'd also agree that pet store vets don't particularly have a great reputation - I know this also from firsthand experience. My most recent rat was so-called "looked at" and said to be fine but when I got her home her missing bit of lip was infected and she had mites. I can understand people wanting her to have seen a vet who is well used to rats.
And KelseyShea you pretty much hit the nail on the head there, kudos.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

I came to this forum looking for a nice place to discuss rats. I guess I was wrong...I've messaged all mods asking them to deactivate this account.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm guessing neither yourself nor the forum have made a great first impression... I hope you change your mind however, this is a brilliant place for advice. Please don't take these criticisms badly, I know some comments may have gotten out of control but you must remember they come from like-minded individuals with a burning desire to care for rats to the best of their ability.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Ok?

I can't speak for everyone, as everyone on here knows, I'm the same age as her. Granite I don't know anything about her other then this story (and that she plays minecraft). A lot of people on here are older then me, so I can't speak for them. I wasn't trying to be mean to her, once again Viola if anything I said offended you I am very sorry, I do not ever wish to come on here and either start trouble (that's happened quite a bit actually) or to hurt other people's feelings unless it's needed, and trust me, it's been needed, but this wasn't quite one of them. Sadly, it's the age of the internet. People aren't afraid to say things online, they don't have to see people face to face, speak in their own words (I'll admit, I might not have said some things I said if were face to face. but I don't like talking to strangers so that might be why). Also on the internet you can't tell how a person's mood or tone of voice is. For all I know everyone is yelling at her or even just trying to be calm. Personally, I'm trying to write this so I sound as calm as possible (ok, fine, I'm tired and this fight has gone No where, I do agree with Viola that this might need to be locked, or at least ended in some way).

Anyways, Viola (Don't know why you are saying Sorry, you shouldn't be sorry to me, or most people on here) The mods that are on here the most are Jaguar (Admin) and Cagebirdsinging (Mod). There is another person on here who's name begins with an M but I forgot her name and I've searched it all over the forum and can't find it (I"m sorry). If you would though, as we've already been saying, if your not comfortable giving your state you can ask one of the mods to do it, Or you can just tell us that if your interested in helping her to PM you to find out the state, and city. JL is already to help out, I would help but with boys and having issues of my own right now, I can't. Trust me, there are people on here who are more then capable of taking care of her if they can get to her in time.

Once again Viola, sorry that this has been a long fight. I don't know when you join the forum, but don't worry. I had a rocky start too (I got into a lot of fights over simple stuff) but I didn't even state my age then, I didn't start revealing my age till a month or two ago. I hope this fight doesn't deter you from being on the forum. we just get out of hand sometimes.


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## tori_m (Mar 5, 2013)

ViolaQueen said:


> But yeah. It made me really sad, but there was nothing I could do. :/


not to gang up on you, but you could have kept her and loved her anyway.


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## tori_m (Mar 5, 2013)

oops. i posted that before reading the thread all the way through. although i still feel the same way (because at first, the way you worded it, didnt really show any remorse...it was kinda just "ah well had to get a new one!" attitude)
anyway, it seems as though the topic is over with so that's that. 

i hope you took her back to a breeder and not back to a pet store..... if she went back to a pet store, and was told she wasn't right.... well, i'm sure the end result wasn't good.
if i knew where you were, if i was close, i'd take her in!


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## ratchet (Sep 27, 2012)

mistymornings18 said:


> Since the mods obviously don't care to say anything to you i will. Voila is a child. you are being rude and behaving very childishly. You need to step back and stop attacking a child over a mistake. You say she has a juvenile mind, well your emotional response is that of a juvenile so you're no better then she is!! Just because you FEEL that the behavior was stress related does not mean you are correct. She is going by what she was told by a VET, are you a vet? Do you have any schooling under your belt for animal medicine? If not you have no leg to stand on but your opinion and you know what they say about those! There is something wrong with YOU for attacking a child based on a bunch of ASSumptions you formed from her replies. Leave the kid alone and behave like an adult. If someone was attacking my kid like you are attacking her, I'd be pissed!!! I'd go as far as to call you an internet bully and involve the site owner over it.


Actually, when I said the mark of a juvenile mind I was referring to her age. As a matter of fact, since you asked - I actually have extensive experience in animal medicine. I work with horses as a living, and attended university for said profession. I am sorry you think my response to what she did is "immature". However, I certainly care for an animal regardless of its affliction - do not mistake my being blunt and identifying where she did wrong as "attacking". If I was going to attack her I would have gone a different route. The fact is she is making excuses for her negligible behavior - every post she has has a new excuse and a new lie on it. I'm not going to sit by and not comment - it's simply not my nature. Every child at some point needs to be taught that making excuses for their irresponsible behavior is not okay.

For the record, YOU (Misty) are the only one attacking/name-calling/quote: "being immature". I feel everything I worded was worded civilly without unnecessary ad hominems.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

This is getting pretty ridiculous, I'm just not going to comment on anything anymore. Lol, because my POV is obviously not accepted nor respected so yeah. I'll just stay out. haha.


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## KelseyShea (Jan 20, 2013)

ViolaQueen said:


> This is getting pretty ridiculous, I'm just not going to comment on anything anymore. Lol, because my POV is obviously not accepted nor respected so yeah. I'll just stay out. haha.


Not so true, I think most people are arguing with each other now, not you. It's the internet. Hopefully you read what I put in a few minutes ago. Best of luck.
*But yes, the whole thing has gotten a little out of hand.


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## ViolaQueen (Feb 26, 2013)

I did read, thank you for your input. I do read all of these comments, and yes, I respect all of your opinions and I'm trying to use them to better myself as a pet owner.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

ViolaQueen said:


> This is getting pretty ridiculous, I'm just not going to comment on anything anymore. Lol, because my POV is obviously not accepted nor respected so yeah. I'll just stay out. haha.


I'm 99% sure everyone is now arguing with themselves and not with you. We can get a bit...rambunctious at times, I think it has to do with that it's almost Midnight in most areas right now (including my area, But I just want to see if this actually ends before 1 AM)

Oh, and sorry if I sound like a broken record, but it might be helpful if you put what state your in. I am a bit worried that if she really does a brain issue that if someone gets her without knowing it, it can be a bad thing. Once again if your not comfortable with it, you can either tell people to just PM you who want to help, or you can tell me to be quite, and stop sounding like a broken record.

Oh, and I don't know anything about how you take care of your animals so don't base all of this on how you take care of them. Once again I am so sorry if we've offended you to the point of making you want to leave, but I'm 99% sure that in the last 3 pages of this everyone is just arguing with themselves. I'm frankly just ignoring it.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

At the end of the day, there was always going to be 3 sides to the argument: with ViolaQueen, against her and for Carmel's sake and on the fence. It's natural for people to present their opinions, that's what forums are used for, opinion AND fact. I'm sorry if people got overly aggressive with you Viola. It seems you've learned from the situation. I think the main reason people got mad is because by sending her back you may have condemned her to death based only on her temperament alone. I had a pair of girls and one of them was the same as this (Hazel, strangely enough the same colourings as Carmel was). I took a different approach and tried raising her. After 6 months of hard work, I realised she wasn't good in my environment and it wasn't suited to her so I found her alternative arrangements with a pack of rats she already was accustomed to. It's a shame Carmel didn't get a chance like this but it can't be changed now! Everybody may as well move on. I wish you and your new girl luck together.


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## Hephaestion (Jan 27, 2013)

@mistymornings18 - well said.

In general I think the tone of this thread to be entirely inappropriate considering the age of the OP. Frankly, it should be locked or deleted immediately.

Some comments have been made which I would rather see removed. I think the tone of forums such is this should be one of consideration and education. Anything else defeats entirely the point of such communities!


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## JLSaufl (Jan 20, 2013)

Viola, if you could please pm me the phone number and name of the pet store, even if its not near me, I'd do my best to make sure someone here (who was willing) or another one of my rat friends to go get her.


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## preciouscreature (Feb 13, 2013)

:/ still....if something is wrong, she can still be one of your babies. Usually (not saying this is what happened) pet shops will dispatch unwanted rodents especially rats and mice for reptile food. I recommend going back and getting her or researching online and taking her to a local no kill rat rescue or shelter. 
No hard feelings - I know you are an animal lover or you wouldn't be on the forum  


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

I would like to apologize for this thread getting out of hand, but I was away from my computer on other business. Unfortunately, the moderators cannot be here at every minute to help keep things in check.

Many opinions and strong feelings have been expressed and this thread has run its course. For that reason, the thread will be closed.

For any further concerns regarding this thread, please contact one of the moderators.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I am posting here to remind everyone that when things get out of hand, REPORT IT. REPORT IT. REPORT IT. Mods/admins cannot be expected to read every single thread on the forum, and when things are going in a bad direction and no one tells us, this happens. Even if you are reporting on suspicion that someone is going to start an argument or is veering away from the topic of the thread, REPORT IT TO US and we will be able to monitor the thread and stay on top of it.

Jaguar


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