# Pain squeaks when groomed or picked up



## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

Recently we've noticed our boy Jesse making pain squeaks whenever his companion Nibbles is grooming him. He doesn't struggle and seems to understand Nibbles isn't trying to hurt him, but the squeaks worry me. He also squeaks if picked up or sometimes even just when a hand gets too near him. They playfight from time to time and when Jesse wins he usually just stands on top of Nibbles, but sometimes Nibbles will pin him and nibble aggressively at the nape of Jesse's neck, which elicits louder and more frantic squeaks (I break it up whenever I catch this happening). I assume Jesse's skin is sore. Would this likely just be from the fighting or is it possible that Nibbles isn't gentle enough when grooming and is aggravating the condition?

Thanks a bunch for any tips, I'm sure Jesse would be happy to stop feeling sore!


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

These are unlikley to be pain squeaks and far more likley to be him expressing feeling in some way. Rats dont only squeak when in pain or fear, some rats are actually very talkative and will make little squeaks whenever they are interacting with other people or rats. They also often squeak in pleasure, grroming is a classic example, think of it as kind of a "left a bit, right a bit, thats the spot". When they squeak during play fighting its typically either over excited or annoyance about getting "got" by the other. These should be ignored as it isnt a problem, just them being babies. 

Fear squeaks are normally accompanied by flinching, a defensive posture (quite tense often on hind legs paws out and teeth slightly bared) or cowering. These arent a big deal and honestly if you are trying to pick them up and they do this you need to carry on normally and help them get used to it, backing away or treating them like they might break will make them more likley to be scared in the future, or it can turn into aggression. By acting normally they realise actually theres nothing to fear. When a rat is truelly terrified they will let out a much more long and drawn out high pitched squeak and often be frozen, this is different and a sign the rat is deeply distressed and you need to find out why.

Pain speaks (other than those from minor none damaging nips) are typically lower in tone, at the extreme ened they are genereally an almost growly whine and very pitiful and sad (they can also do something similar when very depressed or scared). You would normally see them side sucking (a sign of intense pain, they suck in there flanks for a while, different from flank breathing where they just breath from ther flanks and dont hold it in, thats a resp issue).


----------



## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

I am quite certain he is squeaking in pain. His fur is starting to have a pinkish stain to it, I assume from blood. When groomed his squeaks are constant but softer, I get the impression he's saying "owowowowowowow". When touched he sometimes emits a very loud yelp of a squeak and jumps in the air. When Nibbles pins him and chews him in a fight his squeaks sound frantic, terrified. He is definitely in pain. Well have to get him to a specialist I guess


----------



## ahrat (Aug 12, 2013)

My boy does this, it's not pain. He's just being a baby. It's like they know if they squeak people think they'll leave them alone. You have to prove them wrong. Pinkish/orange stain on males is called buck grease, and it's totally normal as they age. As a teen, my boy used to literally SCREAM when his cagemates groomed him, after a month, he would stop the terrifying noise. He would FLAIL and SCREAM, and lose his mind when I tried to pick him up. I have scars from his nails, but I worked with him and now he just sits in my arms and still makes a face when I pet him but it's like a "you're going to do it either way, so i'll let it because squealing doesn't change anything".


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

the pink is probably porphryn, thats a redish pigment from there saliva which does show up on most pale rats as they grow up.

Its important not to put too much human emotion onto rats, they dont act and react in the way a human would in situations. If your fairly new to rats its easy to asusme that they are in pain or need to be protected but in reality this is normal for them. Unless you are finding proper wounds on him or his skin looks red raw (not his fur being pink) then damage isnt being done


----------



## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

Well it's just just a human behavior to make pain sounds, most animals will squeal when hurt. But if squeaking and pink fur are normal we'll wait and see. He didn't used to squeak but maybe he's getting more temperamental. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience


----------



## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

One of my girls is very vocal and at first I thought the others were hurting her, but it's just her talking. Rats squeaks are high pitched so what your hearing is probably what isamurat is saying. she squeaks when she is being cleaned, or when they are playing or if the others take her food, etc.

If your rat is white the pink is porphryn, If you notice around their nose, and eyes they have the red stuff, that is what your seeing in his fur, because when they clean their fur they pull their paws to the back of them and also from the saliva as said. 

My girl wasn't vocal when I first got her either, but now she feels happy, and she isn't scared anymore, she is used to where she is.


----------



## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

I thought mine were fighting this evening so I went over to investigate and found Mooshie, sitting on his own grooming himself and squeaking away like a little rubber duck!


----------



## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

Hmm, thanks all for the feedback. Just to be sure, I recorded a video of Nibbles grooming Jesse so you can hear the squeaks. Partway through you will notice Jesse make a particularly loud squeak and sort of jump in place. I'd really appreciate anyone taking a look to confirm this is normal. Thanks!

http://youtu.be/hHyr8Zi8UM0


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Ok it looks fairly normal, though the boys are older than i thought (about 5-6 months?), Jesse clearly isnt entirely happy with being groomed but is putting up with it (not being very submissive but letting it happen) and just making normal noises. When he jumps and squeaks loudly that is when nibbles was a bit too rough. You notice how his back leg comes round from being fairly submissive to being a bit defensive (the side kick is a classic defensive measure), that probably hurt him a little bit. If you notice Nibbles immediatly stopped, this was him responding, he clearly didnt want to hurt Jesse, however its also improtant to him to continue as its a way of showing hes boss. Jesse is then tense and upset by the issue and overly defensive towards it.

What you have here isnt a big worry but a typical issue that comes up in the teenage period. Both boys have got a good lot of hormones recently and so are feeling full of themselves. They have to sort out whos boss to be happy. Nibbles is the guy who is clearly the most dominant and is currently the alpha, however Jesse isnt a particularly submissve rat so is treading on the line of pushing back. What needs to happen for them to settle down is for Jesse to submit more properly (he's doing the bare minimum right now) and for Nibbles to feel comfy in his position and not need to enforce disaplin. Its going to take a bit of time and unless they are properly causing damage to each other (keep an eye out for scabs on the skin) then really your best waiting it out and letting them sort things out. It is a normal part of rat adolescance (and quite frustrating as an owner lol). What you could do to try and speed things up is stick them both in a small carrier or cage for a few days (with food and water) in close quarters rats often resolve there differences a lot faster.


----------



## Cyrix (May 2, 2014)

Thanks Isamurat. The strange thing is, whenever they are out of the cage, Jesse spends a significant amount of time chasing Nibbles around, crawling over him, and picking fights. I had been worried this behavior was bullying and made a thread about it previously. He still does it and Nibbles sometimes ignores him but they get into little scuffles more often now. When they used to playfight one rat would be the victor and stand on top of the loser; now the fights usually look like draws but sometimes Nibbles grabs Jesse's neck and chews away at it (unlike grooming, Jesse struggles to break free). I had thought Jesse was probably the alpha because of how often he picks fights, do you think he's more accurately trying to challenge the throne? I'm guessing with the buck grease and constant bullying he is more hormonal than Nibbles.


----------



## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

You do find that lower ranking boys with ambition are far more likley to act out if they are in a wide open space. In the cage there is a clear boss, the cage is his terratory and your challenging boy will obey the rules much better. OUtside of the cage he can pick a fight then run, so gets more confident. The boys i've had that have done this tend to approach from behind, pounce, bite or skin tug then leg it. Or if thye are feeling brave they might get a bit more full frontal.

Its one to keep an eye on, if it escalates into injuries i would probably neuter Jesse, this will help him relax and submit and nibbles doesnt seem like a bad alpha. Ideally it will sort itself out though.


----------

