# Planning on trying Immersion tomorrow for the first time



## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

So as the title says I have never tried Immersion before, and for that matter until two days ago I had never had rats before. So I am planning on doing it in my bath tub so it is a smaller location. I am planning on  basically just keeping them in a close intimate space with me for a long time so they cant get away correct? And i interact with them the entire time unless they start grooming in which case i leave them alone because they are thinking? 

Also I have two young female rats. Would it be better for me to do it with them at the same time or separately since I have never done it before?

Lastly any tips or things I should know would be a huge help! Thanks!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Also both rats are shy and skittish, they have not tried to nip or anything, but they do freeze up when I approach them or their cage. Sometimes they will sniff my hand but that is rather rare.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Well i got my boys, my first ever rats, in march. I didn't hear about immersion until like July and BOY do i wish i did it sooner! Marley was never an issue but clark was always a bit of a challenge to "get through to". generally hyperactive and hard to understand. I did immersion with clark in my bathroom, i laid down towels all over the floor and prepped myself with a glass of water in case i got thirsty, my laptop on the counter in case i needed to check ratforum for anything, a baggie of pretzels for treats and a baggie of yogies for special treats. 

I felt really weird :/ like "what am i supposed to be doing here?" "when am i done?" "when will i know i've made a connection?" "what's this flubb about being able to communicate with my rat?"

I was really confused going in but coming out, there was a lot more clarity to the situation. While he was exploring, i reached out and...i guess you could call it tickling. like as gentle as i would to a toddler or baby. just very light, at the shoulders or his sides a little. I read that a rat approaching you from its side is aggressive so i tried to avoid pushing him around. Generally my hand hovered over him wherever he ran, except for that one little corner i couldn't quite reach. I tickled him, poked him, scooped him up (a useful video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VyhD7Dxq7w ) hid him inside my hands {oh gosh he's too big for that now...how time flies} anyway just constantly touching him and trying to interact with him. When he came to me, i offered him a peice of a pretzel stick (small treats, otherwise she'll get too full and not want the treats anymore!) yeah that happened to clark i think, eventually he tired of the pretzels. He snatched them, ran off, and dropped them somewhere random lol if he ever kissed/ licked me i gave him a yogie to show a larger reward for it. I, myself, i didn't really know when the right time to stop was, but after about 2 hours we seemed to be in a really good place, he seemed happy with me, he'd run and do his thing and run back to "check in with momma" sort of lol 

but the next time i took him for free range, i could *really* tell that there was a difference. They actually cared that i was there with them, rather than viewing me as "a fun obstacle i have to jump over to get to the other side of the bed!". When i got off the bed, they both ran to the closest corner and stretched out their necks, whiskers shivering as they sniffed for me. and when i sat down they climbed around my legs a little while before trotting merrily off. It was just darn cute  Oh, and i did clark only, by himself. I'm no proffessional so i don't know if it's going to be better or worse for you to immerse them together or not. I think it says in the immersion thread to go one by one unless you know what youre doing? or somesuch? not sure :/

Word of advice, after this is said and done, i made the mistake of thinking that immersion was a one-time deal. Not so. My schedule has busied (when i was gifted my ratties for my birthday, i wasn't in college. i worked full time but still had time to let them out. now that i decided to give college a second chance, i've found my schedule to be much more congested) and so i haven't been able to let them out as often as they deserved. It was easier to let marley out because he's so chill, and so i let him out and said "tomorrow clark, i promise". well i broke that promise a couple days in a row, and all of a sudden...

CLARK: the menace

The menace was born, i didn't give him the attention and authority he needed, craved, and deserved, and so he got severely confused and angry. He would bite me, pee *everywhere*, and run around like a crazy person, in circles and jumping up and in place and...it was crazy to watch. He bit enough to break skin, and all of a sudden i was scared of him. My fiance (who bonds with clark more naturally) insisted we take clark out for a long-overdue hour of running about. That hour and a half, combined with todays hour and a half, have nearly transformed the menace into the goofball again  

The message to learn: don't neglect your rats. Cuddle them in your arms for fifteen minutes when you wake up, fifteen minutes again before you go to bed. Even just on your shoulders and arms. Just don't neglect them. they need you, your guidance and companionship, in order to stay sane. As Rat Daddy says--and so far as i can tell, this man knows what he's talking about--rats become not only pets, not only friends, but also family members if you allow them that opportunity.

Best of luck tomorrow!


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

I took so long to type that (distracted by charming rattie kisses) that you've already added another tid-bit. I'd say that since they're still so skittish, bring LOTS of treats. i've heard of grapes being a good kicker, my boys like pimentos (the red things in olives), pretzels, fresh fruit like a little blueberry, shredded cheese, or marleys favorite--shredded coconut ^^ my petco sells (and i do NOT recommend petCO, go to petSMART) coconut flakes which are easier for them to eat i think. 

But yes, lots of yummy snacks especially their favorites, if you have an inkling of them yet. No raw peanuts, no peanut butter, not too much dairy product. That, and just be generally "gentle" with the interactions. Still follow them around, but go slowly and talk soft and gentle. Pet slowly, don't scratch (though scratching will possibly become one of their favorites). It's like you're speaking to a shy three year old. Get down on their level (okay don't put your face in their face, but laying down if you can may help them not see you as a giant) and speak slowly, offer your hand and very slowly and confidently insist. Let them sniff you, then reach with another finger to stroke their fur. That video i sent, she also has a really good trust training video i'd recommend


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Wow thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that it was incredibly helpful! I am really excited to do this tomorrow with denna and auri. Right now they have been eating cheerios that leave in their cage as a treat so will for sure be taking them. I will also look to see if we have any yogurt or something like that as well. Again thank you so much!!!


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Not a problem--i love talking about my rats  and if i can help a newbie make the same mistakes i did when i was at that point, then i'd want to!

diary is actually not great for rats, they're lactose intollerant i believe--dont quote me. But like don't give them a dish of milk. cheese is okay of course but don't go nuts. yogurt is also okay but in small amounts. like i give mine a splotch the size of a quarter or so. applesauce is also a good snack. I've found that for my boys if i get my hands wet they lick all the water off--it was a good way early on to get them to lick me without knowing they were doing it kind of. 

maybe if you can, buy a box of the flavored cherios? like the frosted kind or like strawberry flavor?


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

HAHAHAHA i meant if i can help *prevent* a newbie from making mistakes! oops~


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Hahahahaha thats ok I knew what you meant! Ok I will try some of those treats then. I was going to get honey nut cheerios but I read somewhere that was to much sweetness for them, thats why I ended up with the normal bland cheerios.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion is a special occasion, any treats your rats really like are fair game. Second unless you have a huge tub, you might do better on the floor, your rats do need a little roaming room, first so they can withdraw a little and second so you know when they are coming to you and how they are acting.

And yes, basically engage them show them you are their friend, reach out and try to understand them. Try to react and respond to what they do. 

Doing one rat at a time is sometimes easier, but different people and different rats seem to do groups better. I suppose it has to do with how well you multitask. If your rat bites, or one of your rat's bite, it's ALWAYS one rat at a time. You will get distracted by one rat and bit by another, this makes for a very poor immersion experience. Safety first, that's another reason I like more maneuvering room in the immersion area. If your rat turns out to be more antisocial than you thought, which is very very rare, but still I'd rather he wasn't on your belly with no way off. That isn't much of a sentence, but I hope you get the message.

And as to neglect and immersed rats... Immersed rats can become true shoulder rat, they can become house pets very similar to dogs and cats, the can become family members sharing almost every waking minute with you but they deal very poorly with neglect. In immersion you become their alpha, their parent their friend and their leader. They learn to rely on your affection and guidance. We've had our shoulder rats get pretty seriously injured, but they always run to us for help and comfort, even when the injury was caused by human stupidity or oversight. When you neglect your immersed rat, you are punishing it. Like locking your child in a room for a time out. Imagine your parents locking you in a room for a few hours or worse yet a few days. You are going to get sad, or angry or confused and most likely you will act out more due to the neglect.

Sure given a large enough environment and rat pack, rats can develop their own societies without humans. But immersion changes this dynamic and puts the human into the equation as the alpha (read as parent), when you aren't there you create a power and love vacuum. Hopefully, you chose rats because you wanted little furry friends, well, after immersion that's the way the expect to be treated.

We adopted one rat that was neglected most of her life, mostly she comes out of her cage and slinks away to a hiding place to sleep and spends most of her time by herself. That's what she's come to expect from humans. If she wants something she turns up and she tolerates petting and skritches, but attention makes her feel uncomfortable. It really is a shame we can't have the same relationship with her as we have with rats we raised from pups ourselves.

Best luck.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks for the advice, I ended up just using the bathroom floor. I took only Denna as she is the more skittish of the two. We were in there for a hour and 20 minutes. To be honest I had trouble understanding what she was trying to tell me. She found one corner that she stayed in. As far as personality I got the impression she was very shy but curious. After letting her run around the room for twenty minutes or so without me interacting with her I started trying to follow her around and pet her. She kept running back to the same corner every time I got to close though. After a while I scooped her up and held her close to me in my hands. I talked to her and kept petting and stroking. She would sit like that maybe for a minute or so before trying to run away again. 

One time I tapped my fingers on the floor and she started following them around like she wanted to play. However she stopped doing that pretty fast and didnt show any more interest in it if I tried the tapping again. About 40 minutes in I scooped her up and she ran out of my hands up my arm and onto my shoulder. She put her front paws in my hair and sniffed my ear and hair. She then ran back down me and back into her corner. 

The best thing about this immersion session though was Denna took 3 or 4 cheerios from me and ate them. This was the first time I was able to hand feed her anything! She was going back to her corner every few minutes to groom herself and these grooming sessions would last anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. Most of her time was spent in the corner, Im not really sure what I could have done differently to make this more of a success.. any ideas?

I forgot to mention earlier in the post, but at one point I picked my phone up to check this thread and see if anyone else had posted from the last one that I read. During the time that this took Denna ran from her corner and over to my foot or knee and sniffed me two different times. However when she did this if I made any motion towards her or to pet her she would rush back to her corner.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Try laying down and looking busy so she can explore you freely and you don't tower over her. Alternately, pop her down a hoodie and keep her close for a while. 


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok thanks I will try that next time. Tomorrow I plan on doing immersion with Auri for at least an hour and after that I will be doing it with them together. I just want to get the first time with each of them done seperatley


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

If the second rat is more social, it'll boost the first rats confidence in you. 


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thats what I am hoping. Auri the second rat is the alpha rat in their cage also so I was thinking if she warms up to me then so will the other one.


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

Yeah it sounds like she's curious but just really cautious. I would do another immersion in a day or two (if your schedule permits it) she'll hopefully get the idea that "the bathroom means bonding time" to some extent. Unless like what Rat Daddy said she's just really a solitary rat she'll grow to accept you more and more. And since they've only been with you, what three days now? They haven't learned your smell and learned to associate it with treats, food, scratches, and leadership

 it takes a little time, but it's totally worth it!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

relken0608 said:


> Yeah it sounds like she's curious but just really cautious. I would do another immersion in a day or two (if your schedule permits it) she'll hopefully get the idea that "the bathroom means bonding time" to some extent. Unless like what Rat Daddy said she's just really a solitary rat she'll grow to accept you more and more. And since they've only been with you, what three days now? They haven't learned your smell and learned to associate it with treats, food, scratches, and leadership
> 
> it takes a little time, but it's totally worth it!


Thanks for the advice, and yea it has only been a short amount of time, I got them on Wednesday. What you said though actually gives me a question, would it impede the immersion if the next time we did it in a different area? Tonight the family was here so I use the bathroom as a solitary place, however during the week I have the house to myself and I was thinking about blocking off the short hall way outside of my room and doing it there. Would it matter that it is not in the bathroom as it was the first time?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There's no magic about a bathroom, I use a hallway myself. Basically it's enough room for everyone to maneuver, but not too much room where you can't get close.

Also keep in mind that immersion relies on long sessions. Short sessions tend to cause rats to revert between them. When rats meet they fight and/or box or play or chase each other but they don't stop until the meeting and greeting is over with, they basically don't time out. Some might say it wears everyone down a little, but perhaps that's the point to some degree. Keep in mind normal rat free range/play sessions can last over two hours. Don't rush, relax, play, explore each other, even try to have fun. Immersion replaces methods that took weeks or even months to get rats to bond, what's a few more hours? Take pillows along, take snacks for yourself and just engage your rats, get to know each other. Keep in mind, no one has ever taken any real time with them, so you have to show them you are there to stay. Wild rats would end an immersion by all rolling into a single ball and sleeping together. That kind of says we're all family now. Some folks end immersion by carrying their rats around the house the rest of the day, or taking a nap on the floor with them... whatever you do, keep in mind that no matter how long it feels like it is taking... you are shaving weeks or months off traditional socialization.

Again it sounds like you are on the right track, just stay with it.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok sounds good thank you! I am going to get Auri in just a minute to start immersion with her!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey guys i have auri out right now for immersion right now. Im a little worried the hallway is to small its 6ft long maybe a little shorter and 3ft wide does that sound ok? Heres a pic http://imgur.com/43Ykukv


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It looks fine-sized to me.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok thanks, she isnt grooming anywhere near as much as denna and i was worried we were to close for her to be able to stop and think.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

So today's immersion with Auri was interesting. Im not really sure what happened, when we first sat down in the hallway she was running all over me and very outgoing. The longer we went though the more and more she started staying away from me. By the end of the hour and 20-30 minutes she had nothing to do with me at all. I also was never able to hand feed her.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

As Rat Daddy mentioned, you should stop when you've finished and short sessions can send the wrong message. What are you doing while she ran over you then stayed away? I would try to set aside time when you could sit with the rats until they are fully immersed which can take a LOT of time.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

I stopped today, because she was running from me if I even approached her and i was worried I was stressing her to much. I was just sitting still when she ran all over me, if I tried to pet her or anything she was gone. Can immersion work if I am just sitting in the same area as them but not constantly trying to pet them and what not?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So the session with Auri sounds like you started out as an interesting novelty and then just plain got boring. Nothing wrong with that, it happens all the time with rats, they get bored and want to explore more... But an hour and a half makes for a play session not an immersion. Some folks here have settled in for 8 to 12 hours with difficult rats. Bring along balls balloons toys or other props if you like and try to be as interesting and engaged as you can. Try more sinful treats... whatever. 

Your not doing anything wrong. Every immersion is different. But the object of the exercise is to stay engaged until a connection takes place.

To try and explain how wild rats did it with my daughter... My daughter wanted another pet rat and she saw one lurking in the bushes in front of Turtle Back Zoo in West Orange. They said that we shouldn't bring our shoulder rat along the evening we went. It was nearing twilight. So my daughter playfully chased the little rattie in the bushes when a second rat ran across her path, she diverted and chased that one until she almost caught up with it, then a third ran right across her path and she diverted again after the third... then a fourth then another and another and they were practically jumping on her feet as she ran around in circles trying to scoop one up.

Now wild rats are remarkably fast and agile and we were outdoors where normally I wouldn't give a 5 year old even a slim chance of snatching a rat... but there were eventually so many little wild rats swarming her that the odds started tilting in her favor. Grabbing a wild rat isn't likely to end well, in fact I can't count the ways it ends badly so that's when I broke up the game. I suspect if she sat down rather than run after them she would have gotten more intimate interaction. But I knew my daughter's intention was to actually catch one to take home and not join the pack and I'm pretty sure that that was out of the question for the rats. I'm also assuming that it helped that my daughter already smelled like out pet rat who had more than likely scent marked her before we left the house.

But basically, the rat pack just engaged her playfully in a chase game. And as the game went on, the rats kept pushing the limits until they were practically jumping on her feet, kind of saying I'm here I see you, look at me. I suspect they were looking for a sign that she was ready to accept them... sitting or laying down would have mot likely triggered a more intimate contact and perhaps some rat scuffling after which she would submit and get groomed. I'm not sure I would take a chance as an adult understanding what should happen, because things could have gone wrong, but as a parent I had to draw a limit so I couldn't observe the process to a conclusion... But you should get the idea. You engage until your rat responds appropriately. As a pack with so many rats there was no way they were going to tire out first, they could have gone all night. Why would a rat pack want to immerse a small human? Who knows, but it's just what they do. They weren't aggressive or hostile and it looked like they were having quite a bit of fun, they neither ran away nor attacked her and it looked like they were calling their friends to play. 

So consider how the wild rats do it. It's engage, engage, engage. Elicit a positive response and react appropriately... It is a physical form of communication. Fuzzy Rat was already pretty old when we immersed Amelia. She just hung back until my daughter and myself had Amelia playing with us. Then after observing it was the right time, she joined in, chased Amelia for a minute or two play fought her for a couple of minutes and let Amelia push her over like a tipped cow. As soon as Fuzzy Rat was on her back Amelia started grooming her. That lasted for a few minutes and Fuzzy Rat started running around with Amelia right after her. The immersion introduction was over in under half an hour and Amelia spent her first evening in our home sleeping with Fuzzy Rat. Fuzzy Rat wasn't going to win a fight for dominance, but she knew we were that alpha's anyway, so she didn't even try. In all reality Fuzzy Rat chose Amelia when we met her so Fuzzy Rat already knew who we were bringing home, then she planned out her formal introduction that consisted of a brief chase, a brief mock combat and a quick surrender, then a grooming and play with a new friend. Our immersion had gone pretty much likewise except Amelia submitted to my daughter skritching her belly to reward her for joining our pack. Having a little girl human to engage the rats during the immersion helps out a lot. Now to be perfectly clear, before it all was over the immersion took 6 to 8 hours including the introduction and an extended play session. We started at about 10:00 PM when we adopted Amelia and ended up with my daughter sleeping on the hallway floor and both rats were in the same cage by 6:00 AM. And all in all it was great fun and more than a little bit exhausting for everyone involved. I plunked both rats into the cage and they immediately rolled up into a ball and fell asleep, then moved my daughter to her bed, stayed up for about an hour to make sure the rats were fine and passed out myself. I know that 6 hours might sound like a long time... but seriously, the reason you got your rats was to play with them... right?


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

So along with the toys and what not, when I got boring to Auri, should I have continued trying to pet her and what not? If I made a movement towards her she was run to the other side of the hall very fast and it seemed like she was very scared. I guess what I am trying to ask is, is there a wrong way to interact with them during immersion? I felt like if I continued trying to make contact with her I would be doing more harm than good. Should I have continued trying to pet her anyways until she gave in and let it happen? I get what you are saying about the wild rats and your daughter how they interacted, but what if they wild rats had been shy and skittish rather than outgoing, how do you think the immersion would have looked in that case?

I need to find a day that I can go for those really lengthy times. To be honest I didnt realize it could take that long. The problem is I am in college and working almost full time hours as well. 1-3 hours a day is no problem, but more than that I begin to run out of time to do things like homework or house hold chores that I am responsible for before going to work. 

Would it be ok to get a hoodie or something and let the rats go around in there with me in the house? That way they could be close by while I was doing different things. Or would that be more forced socialization than immersion, and not really help? 

I think all in all I am still just confused how to interact with my rats during immersion when they obviously try to stay away from me and I get worried I am going to do the wrong thing and cause more harm than good. Thanks again guys for all the great information, I do really appreciate it, you guys taking the time to write all of this out helps a lot and also means a lot.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's OK to give your rat a little room to relax, breathe and regain it's composure if it really looks like it's stressed to the point of panic, but otherwise stay engaged. Imagine I locked you in a room with a friendly Grizzly Bear and I forgot to mention it was friendly... Yup you just might find yourself in the opposite corner of the room and as long as the bear stayed in it's corner, nothing would change. You could spend days watching each other from a distance, but if the bear kept offering you treats, and gently petting you and NOT crushing you or tearing you apart, you might catch on a little quicker that he wants to be your friend. Be the bear... think of how to say lets be friends to a tiny little human who doesn't understand bear language. 

If a human were locked in a giant bathroom with a bear, some crazy ones would take the offensive and try to drive the bear back, other's might be brave and try to be friends right off, while others would hide behind the giant toilet. So as the bear you have to react appropriately to each one.

As to riding around on your shoulder or hoodie, that's fine, as long as you aren't 'forcing' them. If it's a fun experience for both you and your rats it will help you bond. The reason for the immersion area is to give everybody a little maneuvering room. Your going for a certain amount of engagement while not pushing your rats to defend themselves. If your rats aren't trying to run away and are enjoying the ride, by all means do immersion on the hoof. 

Forced socialization often failed because it looked like this... The human dragged the rat out of the cage and overwhelmed him, the rat bit the human, the human dumped the rat back into it's cage and the rat got to relax and enjoy the afterglow of it's victory... Eventually the rat learned to attack the human right at the cage door and avoid the whole being overwhelmed part. This is why forced socialization with short sessions went so terribly wrong. Open door, insert hand, get bit, close door, apply bandages, session over, repeat daily until you post your rat on Craig's List along with a free cage, toys and food.

One of the first immersions I did, was with someone who had repeated the forced socialization... getting bit cycle every day for three months... this was one seriously determined individual! Believe it or not, he fixed his biting rat in just one night and they were best friends ever after that. When the rat attacked him, the human finally fought back and through the confrontation and the rat finally recognized the human as another sentient being it was better to be friends with and respect. Given a little maneuvering room and a handy bath towel the human didn't even get bit and was able to defend himself when attacked. After a relatively brief and hostile combat the rat pretty much flipped over on it's back and gave up. Then the human skritched it's belly and started showing some love, which he could never do before and we had our first on line happy ending. Three month's of repeating the same nightmare and one night of immersion and it was over.

Basically immersion is based on immersion theory, it's ok to adapt the format to meet your needs. It doesn't become forced socialization until you start forcing things past their limit to break your rat's spirit. An immersed rat isn't brain washed, it's socialized. It's your friend, not your victim. As long as you are engaging and not dominating it's immersion. And you should be able to tell if your rat looks engaged or terrified or angry when you carry it around, if you can't, it's going to run off or try to bite you, which may actually save you a few bucks on a piercing. Not being there, I can't make calls for you, you have to work by feel... try to think of the rat as a child you adopted and are trying to reach out to that doesn't speak your language... what would you do, what would you try? What would you expect? And how would you handle the various things the child might do once you got him home and he's thinking he might be kidnapped? Would you talk in a soothing voice? Would you try repeating his name? Would you try and comfort him? Would you leave him alone and give him space? And how long would you leave him alone so he doesn't feel neglected and abandoned? Would you try and give the child some treats? Would you expect him to take them? What signs of trust would you be looking for? Would it be good to take your new child around the house or is it better to keep him away from the sharp objects in the kitchen? If he runs away do you hold him down or just follow? With every behavior your rat is communicating with you and you communicate back with your behavior. I realize it's trial and error, but some things make more sense than others. Let your imagination wander, try different things and don't get discouraged. 

Basally you try and engage as much as possible. Because it's only when you are engaging that you are making progress. If you aren't touching, you can be talking or tempting... Nothing happens when you are in opposite corners of the room having a staring contest. That just makes you look like a predator.

Suddenly it's like your rat will get you. It's sometimes like an Oprah moment. Your rat realizes you are his new friend and not furniture or a big dumb bear and everything changes, sometimes it's more subtle but you will feel the love when it happens. Your rat is pre-programmed to join your pack (read as family) as long as you are trying, it's actually hard to screw up. Success is almost inevitable.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Wow ok thanks I feel like I have a much better grasp on what immersion is after reading that, thank you!!

I hate to keep asking more questions but I do have one more. Monday to Friday I go into work at 4. So I can get up in the morning earlier and begin immersion, but if it were to turn into a very lengthy session I would have to leave for work. Would it be better to wait for next week when I have entire days off because of thanksgiving, and do a lot of free roam with me interacting with them until then, or should I go for it tomorrow and hope that its over before I have to begin to get ready to leave for work?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Anything is usually better than nothing. But try to make as much progress in the time you have. Your rats don't sound too terrible, so if you have some time still interact with them as much as you can.... Not quite immersion, but still within the general guidelines of the theory. If you start seeing the types of negative cycles I've described before forming, where your rats are reacting less favorably or taking advantage of your time limits to wait you out... then wait for Thanksgiving. The goal is to build on work you have done, as long as you are making progress or at least things aren't going backwards appreciably keep going. Also remember that often rats resist hardest just before they get it. In humans as well as rats preconceptions die hard. Sometimes there's practically no visible progress until there's a breakthrough. One common thing I've heard from people doing immersions goes something like this... "I was just about to give up when suddenly my rat changed..." Like the little kid that finally realizes that you are going to be his new mom. I've done immersions, I can pretty much see how it's going and feel my way through, once you do one or even a few it will become second nature. The first time through you are going to be second guessing your self and feeling kind of unsure, that's normal. Just keep in mind that there have been thousands of immersions and we haven't lost a human or a rat yet.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok awesome thanks! I will make it a daily thing from now on then, and if we still arent completely there then next tuesday we will make it a marathon day! Thank you again for all the advice you have given me as well as so many other people on here, it really does help so much!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey guys so just an update. I have had Denna in the collar of a fleece pullover that I am wearing for around an hour now. She is grooming herself and just chilling. If I rub her she sniffs my hand but doesnt object or try to move away. I have until 3 to have her out in which case I will need to get ready for work at 4. Anyways I sat her on my shoulder only long enough to close up the cage door and put the paper tie I am using to keep it closed back on it. She ran into my collar and is not trying to leave. I have walked to the kitchen and back a few times and she just chills. The only negative so far is she is not taking treats I offer her which she was doing a few days ago. I am happy though as she is seeming to be ok being in such close proximity to me for a longer period of time than in the bathroom when she would repeatedly run away. 

Also Auri has been way more active in her cage today while I am in the room. I changed my mind on the together immersion simply because of trying the leaving them in my hoodie. Tonight after work I plan to get Auri out and do the same with her until I am ready to crash out. I am not trying to pet them a ton while in my collar as they have both been so skittish, but every 5-10 minutes when I do so far Denna seems ok with it. Hopefully this is progress!


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

That sounds really good! Grooming when they are near you is a good sign, and its also good that the "shelter" she is seeking is within your clothes, not in the corner lol sounds like you're making good progress!

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I hope you and your new rats find the kind of relationship we share with ours.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks guys so far so good, We are about to hit hour two and she has one time ran around and onto my chest and let me rub her for a while. She is getting a lot more curious it seems. She still has not taken a treat from me but Im not going to worry about that right now. I actually posted this in general care, but in case it is a time sensitive thing I want to ask here as well. She used the bathroom in my collar and before I saw it and could remove it she stepped in it. Now it is on her back foot. Should I try to wash that off or will she lean it herself? Im worried about bumblefoot if it just stays there dried on the bottom of her foot and heel.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

cjam93 said:


> Thanks guys so far so good, We are about to hit hour two and she has one time ran around and onto my chest and let me rub her for a while. She is getting a lot more curious it seems. She still has not taken a treat from me but Im not going to worry about that right now. I actually posted this in general care, but in case it is a time sensitive thing I want to ask here as well. She used the bathroom in my collar and before I saw it and could remove it she stepped in it. Now it is on her back foot. Should I try to wash that off or will she lean it herself? Im worried about bumblefoot if it just stays there dried on the bottom of her foot and heel.


it was actually health my bad


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just wipe it off, she'll take care of it otherwise. Bhmblefoot needs an open wound to infect. 


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

ok cool thanks, thats what I was thinking but I wanted to make sure


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey guys so I just put Denna back in the cage. For the 3 and a half hours or so she mainly chilled in my collar grooming or smelling or just laying there. In the last half hour or so I reached back and picked her up and moved her to my stomach. She ran around for a bit with my following her rubbing her and then ended up snuggling up in between my arm and my stomach. I then just stoked her back for a while and she sat there for a while letting me. 

However something interesting happened when I was getting ready to put her up. As I approached her cage she started making a noise. I would actually call it more of a chirp than a squeak. Anyways she ran up my arm and back into the collar and kept making that noise. It was like she didnt want to get put back yet. I really wish I had more time today, but I for sure think today was a big success as opposed to the other days. Only odd thing was she still by the end would not take a cheerio although two days ago in the bathroom she did so without a problem.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

She may just not like cheeros. Mine don't. Sounds like good progress!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Well she has been eating them if I leave them in her cage, and that is what I hand fed her two nights ago. I will try something different next time though


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, let's recap... She hung out with you and let you handle her and pet her and she didn't want to leave you to be put back in her cage.... On which planet isn't this a great success?

Some rats are very wary about treats, it's instinctive. Our part wild rat wouldn't eat cake unless she tasted it the day before. And Max, won't eat anything if she isn't actually hungry, no matter how tasty the treat. And if she's busy exploring, she doesn't eat. After play time and exploring time, she will go and eat the same treats she wouldn't take from us by hand. If Max is sleeping or napping I can pile her dish with birthday cake and she won't budge until it's time to get up, then she will poop, drink, preen as he personal grooming regimen requires and pounce all over Amelia to get at the cake. With Fuzzy Rat, food came first, everything else a distant second. Every rat deals with treats differently. Part of immersion is understanding your rat, each rat is different, don't so much worry about what they are doing as make a mental note of it. Start cataloging in your mind what your rats baseline personality is. This way you will know when it changes and be able to determine the cause. If Fuzzy Rat didn't attack food on sight, I would know she was in imminent danger of dying. In fact half an hour before she passed away she ate a piece of fortune cookie and a half a grape. If Max refuses food, she's just otherwise occupied. Fuzzy Rat stole a cupcake from an autistic kid while he was hanging on to her tail. He picked her up by the tail and she didn't let go of the cupcake... Max has never taken a single treat from a stranger. Both rats are/were hand raised and very competent shoulder rats, but they have their own personalities. To be honest, we've never had two rats that were very much alike. So for now, just try to figure out what is normal for each individual rat, this will come in very handy in understanding them better later.

And btw Great Job so far!


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks! haha yea it was for sure the best session I have been in now. 

Ok thanks I guess she probably was just preoccupied with me or my collar or something. So for your rats that do not readily eat every time you offer them something, how do you go about training them? Do you just wait for them to be ready to accept treats them train them?


Thanks I really do appreciate all your help! I am just about to start with Auri and I am going to try it like I did with Denna yesterday


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

So I didnt get to post before hand howAuri did because I was running late for work. She started off being laid back and letting me pet her. She sat in my collar much the same way Denna did. About an hour in though she started to move around a lot. She climbed all down my back (in between the hoodie and tshirt) around my waist, and even up my arm sleeves. Any time she stuck her head out she would just look around. If I tried to pet her she would rush back into the hoodie right away. About 2 1/2 hours in I picked her up off my shoulder and cupped her in my hands against my stomach. She sat there and let me rub her for a minute or so then bolted back into my collar. Im not sure what it was, but I got the impression she is not shy so much as just curious and has a lot of energy. She never seemed to be scared of me when she was running from being petted, it was more like she just didnt want to sit still long enough for that.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our huge clumsy hands take a bit of getting used to for some rats, but with practice on your part and patience on theirs you will both get through it.

Today I was reminded of a study done on dogs where on person would feed the dog and another would play with the dog. Dogs bonded to their play partner not their feeder. It's an old study and it has become rather obscure in the literature. It ruffled a few feathers among the operand conditioners back then that believed in the reward/punishment theory of training. 

You see to an intelligent metacognative animal like a rat or a human it's the actual one on one interaction that is most rewarding. Think of yourself going on a couple of dates with different people... assume the other person is paying for dinner... do you base your decision as to whom you would invite in to your home afterwards based on the quantity or quality of the dinner? Or rather on the interaction you had with your date otherwise? Yes OK a hotdog truck could turn you off and the Manhattan Plaza Hotel helps to set the stage... but assuming we aren't talking about extremes... is it the treat or the person that matters? Think about how you can show your rats that you love them by the things you say and the things you do. And keep in mind the interaction is the reward.

Fuzzy Rat had an amazing understanding of humans words... no words ever made her happier than when I hugged her and I said "You're a good girl". She lived for it and you could actually watch her melt. As to treats, yup she insisted on those too, and she could be very clever and crafty about getting them. But she was more satisfied with herself about conning us out of treats than she was flattered by receiving them. Max, having a completely opposite personality, enjoys play above all else and has no comprehension of treats as a reward. If you want her to hang out and play with you all you need do is play with her. If you aren't in the mood for play she will leave and busy herself otherwise, no treat is going to get her back.

Think about how you can enrich your interactions with activities and games and holding and touching. And I think you will see it will work for all your rats, even those that like treats.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Awesome thanks man! I hope to start training them very soon! Unfortunately I couldnt work with them very much today, I had to go into work earlier than other days and had school work before that. Tomorrow Im hoping to get them both out for most of the day with me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Remember, you follow immersion with as much hands on contact as possible... you need to build on the relationship you built. You've invited your rats into your family, now you have to make them feel like part of the family or they will get confused and things will go south.


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## cjam93 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok thanks ill be sure to do that!


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