# Final plea for help with my rat bully



## lalalauren

For those of you that don't know, I'm having problems with a bullying rat. He is two months younger than my older boys and came from a pet shop whereas my other two were an accidental litter from breeder rats (I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'm starting to feel that it does).

Tonight, I reintroduced the boys in neutral territory. I used my spare cage and plopped them all in there, hop


Sorry, that was my rat bully posting for me...I'm still finishing the story...


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## lalalauren

(Sorry, it took longer than 10 minutes for me to type this story up -what a messy thread)

For those of you that don't know, I'm having problems with a bullying rat. He is two months younger than my older boys and came from a pet shop whereas my other two were an accidental litter from breeder rats (I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'm starting to feel that it does).

Tonight, I reintroduced the boys in neutral territory. I used my spare cage with no hiding places and plopped them all in there, hoping that they would settle their differences, or that I'd at least be able to sit and watch their behaviour carefully. It started off innocent enough. The older boys were sat huddled in a corner and the bully was nipping at them a little, but not aggressively. There we're squeaks of protest, but nothing that I don't normally hear. The more confident of the older two was boxing him a little, but that was it.

Then suddenly it turned. The bully started puffing up noticeably, despite no real threat from either of the other two. The shoving got more aggressive, and fur started flying. The spare cage has three levels, and they were all falling/pushing each other off the levels (luckily they're not actually that high), and then some awful squawking happened, and it got so bad that I couldn't leave the, in here anymore. As soon as I opened the door, the older boys ran for the cage, and they've been there ever since. One of them even did scared poops :/

I would have left them to it, but when I saw the aggressive puffing, that was it. I couldn't leave my two older boys in there with him with no protection. I'm now seriously considering neutering. I was content in trying to ride out he next couple of months and hope he calmed down, but that was before I saw the puffing. I THOUGHT he had been playing, just getting a bit overexcited, but now I'm not so sure. I'm not happy with the idea that, somewhere down the line, something could go wrong and I won't be there to separate the fight.

I've not had a rat neutered before, and I know it can be dangerous, and people who've been following my threads know that I'm not about to take it lightly. I'm not looking for a miracle - I'm just hoping that, without his testicles, he won't have the urge to be on top anymore. He'll be more content just to go with the flow, and the other boys won't be so scared or threatened by him. Please do let me know if I'm wrong in thinking this. Or if anyone has any other ways in which I can help my boys.


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## nanashi7

My view on neutering differs from some. Sometimes I think it necessary and can help 

I've been following your threads. You've done the behavioral approach.

In front of you now stands proof more is going on. I believe a neuter may be necessary. As you suspected, your breeder breeds for temperament and parental history. Other places don't care if an aggressive male has kits with an unsocial doe. 

There are loads of resources available to you in hormonal aggression and neuters. I did warn about the hyper ness remaining but aggression should not. Talk with your vet about what is happening, if they're good they'll be true about what they think is best. 


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## lalalauren

I'm not fussed if the hyper remains. I just want this need to square up to the other boys when they're not even trying anything on with him to stop. If he were asserting his dominance in a power struggle, yes, fine. But there's no power struggle. It's just him being a bully, without being provoked at all.

I'm just doing a a cage clean now. I've decided to try a reintroduction again in fair territory to see if it makes a difference. There are no toys, but a basket hat is zip tied to the door, and a couple of ledges. Look what's happening...









(Excuse terrible iPad quality)
The two older boys are terrified without any hiding places. They're perched on a tiny ledge because they feel safe because that ledge won't take another rat easily. The bully is freely roaming the cage, but the older two have actually not moved an inch :/ I hate seeing them like this...

Do you think I should separate them? As you'll know, they do sleep together in the hammock, so I know they enjoy one another's company to a degree. This is why another option of mine may be to get the snip and put the bully in with some girls if he still won't behave with the boys. I know that some male rats just plain don't work with other male rats, but I know this guy likes company. He's not cut out to be a lone rat. 


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## Rat Daddy

Lalalauren,

Being your packs alpha, you really have to get hands on with your problem rat. When he puffs up use negative communication to show him just how confused he is. Some people do a pin down, other's head bop and other people have different techniques (applied with love) to show a rat that you and not him are in charge. 

Do as many activities with all of your rats out of the cage with you in the middle as you can and maintain hands on control of the situation. 

I'm not seeing anything about how he is treating you, but if he's being pushy towards you, drag him into an immersion are and work with him. If he's aggressive armor up first.

It's normal for some rats to get alpha disorder. They get confused and think they should be the alpha of the pack. But as there are no real enemies to fight and no foraging raids to lead and no mates to chase there really isn't anything a rat pack alpha is competent at doing. Moreover no reason for the other rats in the pack to follow him. And in all reality your other rats are already bonded to you as their alpha. Being a fearless leader with no one to follow is incredibly frustrating so eventually a rat will lose it and start fighting for control, and when there's nothing to control he'll start attacking his roomies and his humans. 

To complicate matters, nature gives alpha rats an extra boost of hormones that makes them bigger, stronger and faster than their packmates so they can carry out their job effectively. Again, if he were outside in the wild he would be using his superpowers to fend off predators, settle disputes, mate with the coolest girl rats and lead his pack through survival challenges. In his cage his hormones have him racing his engine at 6000 RPM while he's stuck in neutral.

Thankfully when a rat loses his alpha status, usually by being defeated in combat by a superior rat, his hormones will reduce to normal and he will once again become a good member of society.

Some people shortcut the process by neutering their rats, but this doesn't always work. If he still wants to be the alpha, he may not back down, even without the benefit of hormones to make him stronger and bigger. 

In a domestic environment, there can be only one alpha, and that is you. Only you can lead your pack through the more peaceful life of domestic bliss. You are bigger than he is, and smarter than he is and stronger than he is and most of all you understand what your pack needs better than he does. It's your job.

So get hands on and take charge. So when he does something you respond immediately. He puffs up and you shut him down hard. It won't work the first time, as it will take his hormones a while to return to normal, but you need to be very consistent and omnipresent. It might even take an extreme immersion to get control back. But that's the only way to get control of your pack back.

I might add that you don't need to be a dictator or a monster. When he submits and he's being nice show him lots of love and kindness. You always want to be the nice parent and lead through positive communication... except when your rats challenge you. Then you do whatever it takes to maintain order.

Keep in mind, this is the way rats have built their societies since the dawn of their species. I realize no rat parent wants to be harsh, but it's what rats understand. If your rat actually attacked a wild alpha rat, there would be pieces of him all over the cage before he knew what hit him. And if he survived by submitting before he got killed, his alpha disorder would be cured in under a minute. Short of throwing him into a wall AND stepping on him there's nothing you are likely to do that a real alpha rat wouldn't do 10 times worse. Your rat is programmed to get the message. Rats aren't stupid and it's very rare for a rat to get killed or seriously injured during alpha status struggles... because the losing rat knows when to back down and flip over on his back to submit.

Best luck.


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## lalalauren

He's not aggressive with me in the slightest. When I let them out of the cage, I broke down in tears because I couldn't believe I'd subjected my older rats to that for as long as I did. While he two ran back to the cage, the bully was all over me, and he was probably trying to make me feel better (although he doesn't realise he's the reason behind it). I've tried playing with them all together, I've sat with them on my lap as one big squishy rat family. He won't do anything to them as long as I'm around. When they did used to come out of the cage for free range (the older boys just plain won't come out anymore - I've taken to free ranging them on my bed alone), I'd intervene at any sign of bullying. As soon as he started chasing one of the other boys, I was there, and he'd listen. I'd yell at him, and he'd stop. Or I'd put my hand in front of him to distract him, and he'd take the bait. 

I've just put all of the toys back into the cage, and they're getting along fine enough. Enough for me to know I won't be separating them. It's just, when they're faced with each other, and only each other , things get ugly. In the room where I free range, while her are loads of hidey holes, it's a much bigger open space. If the bully clocks one of the others, he'll chase him and then stand on him in his hidey hole. It's enough to make them not want to come out for play anymore. 

I have considered immersion with them all in the bathroom. It's a much smaller space with less hidey holes, but there are hidey holes - behind the sink, and usually in my clothes. I want them to face one another and get over it. At any signs of aggression, I do pin and/or bop, but that was back when they used to free range together. I couldn't get involved in the the cage because I would have lost a finger. I chose to put them there first as opposed to doing the bathroom thing because I felt that less space would mean they'd have to settle their differences rather than run away. 

Like I said, he is not aggressive with me. He's super wriggly, and doesn't much like the pinning, but every time I pin, he apologises. He's a sweet boy, but he's just not playing well with his cage mates. 


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## Finnebon

I'm glad you're getting a lot of suggestions! I posted 3 times with a similar problem and didn't get anything really..  We had 3 adult boys, and one adult kept picking on the younger one. He only was aggressive towards the younger one despite having all grown up together, and since I didn't know what else to do, I had to rehome the younger boy so he could be happy. We miss him, but I think he's happy with his new home and has even more brothers to cuddle with. From what it sounds like since he's aggressive to both of them and not just bullying one, and since he's still sweet with you, maybe neutering actually would be a good option. If not, maybe he just doesn't get a long anymore with your older boys? I don't know if it's a good option for you or if you have another cage, but maybe you can try separating him from the others. He might need to live as a single rat, or maybe you can try finding him a new brother that he might get a long with better? If you really want to try to keep them all together though, a neuter could really help if he's being hormonal.


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## lalalauren

Thanks, I need as much help as I can get, I really feel a bit helpless. I almost wouldn't mind if he were aggressive with me because at least then I think I'd know what to do :/ 

I've considered rehoming the bully, but only because I'm weighing up every single option. I really don't want to lose him, especially since I've spent so much on vet bills for him already! 

He's not a cuddler or anything, but I have a feeling he's going to be the nicest boy ever when he's older. He's so so friendly, and just wants to explore everything. 

I really don't think he could be a lone rat. I had him in a separate cage tonight when I was cleaning the main cage, and let the older boys have some undisturbed free range (it's incredible how much more comfortable they are with me and in general without the threat of the bully), and he didn't seem happy being on his own (the older boys didn't even try to go over to him in the cage though). 

I've thought about getting him some more male friends to play with, but I don't think I can chance the same thing happening with them :/ that's why I'm thinking I might get him some girlfriends if the neutering doesn't help him get along with his current cage mates. 

I will try an intense immersion session with them all tomorrow though, but I feel like I can predict how it'll go - the big boys will hide in/on me for protection, and I'm going to have to try and let the bully do his thing as long as he doesn't get aggressive. I'm going to feel awful for not protecting them though :/ but I feel I can't punish the bully if he's not actually doing anything wrong (like if he's just trying to play). The second he gets puffy, I'll sort him out though. But i don't think he'll do that with me right there...but we'll see


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## Finnebon

I have one idea that's completely random but might help a little bit. A lot of people do this for their rats instead of using those dog type cones like an Elizabethan collar if their rat won't leave a wound/incision area alone. Try getting something like an Ace bandage (I forget the general term). One of those stretchy fabric bandages that stick to itself. The kind used for wrapping around an ankle or something. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about even if I can't think of the actual word lol. But what some people do if they can't keep their rat from fussing at a healing wound and won't tolerate a cone, is to wrap their waist (not too tight) with the bandage. It keeps them from being able to twist and turn fully. He won't be able to properly groom himself, but he can still eat and potty and sleep comfortably, but he won't be as mobile or agile, so he won't be able to be such a bully. Maybe during times when you can't keep an eye on him, you can give him his little "grump wrap" if you're sleeping or out of the house, that way the older boys will have more of a chance against him to get away and so he can't be as capable at being a bully. Just a thought, it might work for a temporary solution to ease the bulliness until you come up with a more permanent one.


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## lalalauren

Grump wrap...that is cute  sounds like an interesting idea but I don't think I'd ever get it on him! He's super squirmy and won't be held. He doesn't mind being picked up, but used it as n opportunity to go arm surfing rather than sit still and take a load off his own paws. I don't reckon it'd stay on him long either...my boyfriend had a plaster on the other day, and he would not rest until the plaster was gone! And that wasn't even directly his problem! 

They're okay in the cage together at the moment, but I am worried about how long that'll last. I hear squeaks sometimes, and I run in to check, but 9 times out of 10, it's just the bully trying to snuggle innocently in the hammock and the older boys going "oh please don't hurt us!". Free range time with him currently consists if trying to wear him out so he just falls asleep in the cage


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## Rat Daddy

Lalalauren,

Everything you said sounds great... except the part about not being able to put your hands in the cage. No rat should bite you no matter where it or you are. 

Maybe I'm missing the point, reading into what isn't there or nit picking, but it might be a point of concern for you to consider. 

Lastly, Max who is a very young strong teenage girl rat sometimes tries to play with Amelia who is an old rat with a huge tumor. There is no aggression involved but Amelia usually winds up squeaking for assistance or, if out of the cage runs to me for security. From what you related this doesn't seem to fit your scenario, but I thought I'd mention it in case it relates to your issues in some way I've missed.


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## Phantom

Maybe I can help a little. I used to have a very dominant alpha named Mimi. Besides her own mother, Molly, she bullied Pastoolio until she drew blood once when they first met. Pastoolio is the type of rat that is super submissive. He's also not afraid of anyone's rats and has gotten along with a few females that I was told were very dominant and aggressive. 

Anyway, back when Mimi was around and super dominant and aggressive towards him I took every possible measure I could to introduce them back to one another. Mimi was a very scared rat. The only people and rats she was not afraid of was myself, my boyfriend, my Mom, and her mother, Molly. Anyone else she met she would hide from or puff up around and hiss at. Since she was frightened of Pastoolio, and Pastoolio was frightened of her because she drew blood from him, I spent a lot of time every day making sure they were introduced back to one another. Under my watchful eye they ate next to one another, cuddled on my lap at the same time but on different ends, and eventually they slept together as time went on. This took a matter of weeks and a lot of time.

Eventually they ended up like this in the end.


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## lalalauren

Ratdaddy - about not being able to put my hand in the cage, it was more when they were fighting in the smaller cage that I had put them in to settle their differences. I don't know if I would have been bitten had I put my hand in there, but for all the ledges and ramps, there's not much manoeuvrability in there (plus tiny hatched doors) for me to put my hands in and sort them out. None of my rats has ever bitten me before, but that's not to say I might have gotten hurt trying to separate the fight. Instead of getting involved, I let them out of the cage. Maybe that was my mistake, but that was what I did to get them to stop.

Phantom - the problem with my scenario is that I can probably snap a hundred pictures of my boys all looking like that because they will fall asleep together quite happily. This is the main thing that confused me :/ they have to like each other at least a little bit! When they're all tired, they don't run from one another, so they can't see each other as that big of a threat. 

This feels like it's getting harder to explain without people actually seeing what's going on  it was never a constant bully as such, but whenever we were out and the bully clocked one of the other boys, he'd make a beeline for them, and they run, and he'd sit on them, or dig himself under them, or sidle up to them, or kick out at them with his back legs. When I noticed him doing this, I started to block him whenever he chased the others. Or I'd pull him off them and flip him. But it hasn't worked as well as I'd hoped, because now my older boys just plain won't come out of the cage when he's out. They feel safer in bed because they know he's going to be running around the room


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## lalalauren

For example, this is them right now. This is how I find them most mornings (makes it difficult to give the bully his meds, but hey)

I feel like if he were biting me, or drawing blood, or keeping the others from getting any rest, I'd know exactly what to do. But it's this mix of behaviour that's throwing me


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## lalalauren

Okay, I'm currently in the bathroom with all of my boys. So far so good. Lots of exploring because none of them have been here for a while. I can hear one of my older boys' squeaky breathing - his myco has flared up with the stress of all this. He's been on meds for a couple of days :/


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## lalalauren

Both older boys were in my clothes for a bit. They've now emerged. Sissy rat is still on me, but is looking around. Confident older rat keeps trying to hump bully, but he does it in such a pathetic way. Sorta like hump and run. Bully has only just started to notice...squeaking and chasing has begun


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## lalalauren

It's been over an hour of the older boys roaming happily, napping in my clothes, and the bully doing what he wants and getting flipped and tickled randomly(just playfully, he hasn't done anything wrong while we've been out).

I've been holding them all in my lap. I've been holding them next to one another. I've been holding one next to the other (I held one of my older boys next to the bully earlier...he licked his eye). There's been some squeaking and chasing, but nothing like last night. I think I'm going to try putting them in that cage again, but this time I'll stick my hand in if I need to. I'll leave the sissy boy out of it for now though. He's too fragile. 

Bully has now curled up on his own in the corner. Every time I stroke him, he seems miffed that I'm disturbing him. I might take him to bed tonight, I feel like I've been hard on him lately.









Here's bully being groomed by confident older boy. I don't think it's quite as positive as I'd like it to be though...


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## Isamurat

I think it's important in this to understand that in any rat group there is always a rat alpha, in the right world they should know that they rank below their human but there still needs to be a rat in charge in the group for when the human is not there. This is especially important in buck groups who rely a lot more on internal heirachy than girls and in some respects it is a lot stronger but that means whe something shakes it the consequences are worse.

In terms of whapt is happening in your group it sounds like your young man has hit his hormonal phase, this is where Bucks get a rush of hormones from coming into adolecesnce. This effectively boosts there self belief and also there desire to be top rat. If the rat alpha is strong enough he will naturally supress the size of this hormone surge, and often stop any challenges quietly and effectively with his humans support. If tne rat alpha is uncertain, unwell or more an alpha by default (so rather than being true alpha material was actually just the most dominant or strong rat in the group, common in small groups and pairs) the often this surge results I tbe younger rat properly challenging for alpha, there hormones running unchecked. This will generally result in the young buck trying his best to be boss, often without enough confidence and strength to fully take over. Thisleaves your group in a kind of deadlock, withthe current alphaa d young challenger very tense around each other a new d often lower ranking rats recieving Injuries, generally to the bum and hind quarters which shows a rat who is Avoiding A Head on confrontation. 

There are ways to help tilt the balance and resolve the dead lock. If you take a stronger roll this can help and is well worth trying initially but it isn't always enough. It's worth making a good try for a few weeks though. You can also push them into a controlled confrontation to resolve there differences. Putting the 2 challengers into a small bare neutral space like a small carrier and watching them with a towel or water spray to hand works well. Allow them to scuffle, pin etc however if they puff up or start fighting to wound then bang sharply on the carrier and be prepared to spray if they don't stop. Leave them in there as long as it takes Making sure they have water. Sometimes over night is needed. Once they are sleeping or comfortable touching each other then then add your other boy. Again leave as long as it takes intervening only when necessary. Once they settle and sleep together then you can move them into the smallest cage you have, or split a bigger one, make it entirely bare apart from water bottles and scattered food. Try putting whatever was in the carrier on the cage with them, helps make it less a new Terratory to be argued over. O only when tension is low to nil add new things and then only a bit at a time. This works well in many cases and is particularly effective when introducing or settling buck groups. 

If this doesn't work then the 3rd option is to neuter the aggressor, its something that can be very effective if the aggression is hormonally driven. Is something I will be doing with one of my lads shortly, he improved on reintroduction using the above method and his cage mates are no longer scared of him however he is still overly rough to his mates and regularly draws blood. He also allows hormonal tendencies when out and about shuffling and fluffing up though he's an absolutly lovely rat with me, turns to mushand is very licky. I can pick him up mid fluff without fear. I know there are risks but I know its right for him and his friends. To minimize them though he is going to a very about an hour travel from me, it's worth it as she has an excellent reputation and success rate with rat neuters letting me know I'm giving him the best chance I can. Where are you based in the UK, it might be I know a vets nearby with a good reputation. I'm a bit rubbish down south though.


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## lalalauren

Ha, I'm down South unfortunately. In Kent. I think I know a good exotic vet though, about an hour away. I don't go there, because my local vet is good and treat rats, but I don't think they'd do a neuter. My bully is currently in his last week of a four week course of meds for a chronic URI, and my vet was getting consultation from this exotics vet. 

I feel like I've made a bit of progress tonight. The older boys squeak a bit when the bully comes around, but it's not that bad, and they don't run as much now. The bully doesn't even touch them. I think it's just leftover fear feelings on their part. I put them in the small cage together - first the bully and the ex-alpha, nothing much happened. So I put my sissy in. Nothing much happened. I left them in there for a while. There was a bit of grooming, NOTHING compared to last night. When the bully comes around, the other boys tense up and just let him do his thing. They're not comfortable around him, but he doesn't try and hurt them. 

I let them all out of the cage because they started to look sleepy and I didn't think we were going to get nah further. I was going to put them back into the cage and call it a night, but my older boys have FINALLY been playing outside of the cage for the first time in days. My sissy is more confident than I've seen him in weeks. He doesn't hide in his corner anymore (he's actually not been there all night).

I think I might continue to make progress doing this every night. And when the little guy is off his meds, I can start with extreme cage swapping (my spare cage is currently a hospital tub because he's on so many meds, I can't chance him a) not eating them and b) the other boys eating them instead...I gave my third spare cage away to a rescue last week...typical). 

Okay, bully just jumped back into the cage where sissy was eating. Sissy squeaked and leapt into a hammock. Bully literally did nothing. Sissy looks terrified. Once I've kicked any possible aggressive behaviour out of the bully, I need to work on the other boy realising he's actually not a threat 


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## lalalauren

I'm thinking of buying a second hand single levelled hamster cage - do you think this would be a good idea? I feel that my spare cage is still too big to really force the boys to engage. It'd probably make a better hospital tub in the long run as well, and I can leave my spare cage as my "keep separate for long periods of time or quarantine/intro cage", because it's a good size for that...


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## Isamurat

I use a single level hamster cage for this, mine is a ferplast cerceti 15, a brilliant back up cage as its 50x80 base so a good amount of space for mums on a litter, but also nice and low so a good intro cage or hospital cage. I must say though I also have 2 other soare cages that are bigger lol, but I need them when I occasionally have a litter here. Well worth checking out the alaska cage, it may actually be cheap enough new and its a really good small cage, flat packs nicely and is very solid. Used one with my last litter as my cerceti was at a friends and its a brill cage.

I would try then in the hospital cagr all togehter tonight after cleaning it all out and removing any hammocks and if it goes well move it into your bedroom and leave them there. Too much seperating and reintroductions adds extra stress into the process which can make thigns worse. It can work well for girls but rarely does for boys. The same is true of cage swaps. Ive seen this have the oposite effect on some boys. They can smell the other rats but not resolve who is boss, so they just get tense and upset, making the eventual meeting harder. I generally use the same approach with girls as in most cases it works well for them too, however the reverse is often not true.

Hopefully a neuter wont be needed, but if it is it sounds like youve got a good option. I can find out a decent vet in cambridgeshire if it helps, I have friends round there, but I will be honest in my head it seems nearby but most likley isnt. Worth checking out zephry rats for the future though, she breeds awsome rats and isnt to far away.


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## lalalauren

Yeah, I do think we can make some progress without a neuter, which is great  

I'll move them in with me tonight and see what happens. I really don't want to stress anyone out, seeing as I know my big boys are already stressed as it is. 

So let me just clarify so I do this right...for reference, my spare cage is 50 x 30 x 70. I am to clean that out thoroughly tonight (after the bully has had his evening meds and presumably after some free range) and let them all stay in there with nothing but one another to play with over night. I'll put the cage next to my bed so I can sort out any fights immediately. How's this?


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## Isamurat

clean out thoughrly, i'd put some substrate in the bottom, i dont know what you use but something loose they cant hid under. Add a couple of water bottles at either end of the cage and add the rats. There food should be scattered around not in a bowl, basically your not giving them anything to get possesive and fight over or get cornered in. Its a shame the cage is so tall, if you can block off some of the height that might help too, though if there are no shelves or anything theres not anywhere to play king of the castle on


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## lalalauren

I have shredded cardboard that I can use as substrate. There are three levels to it, but I guess I can take those out? They'll still be able to climb the walls of the cage, but they won't be able to stay up there forever...


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## Isamurat

It's not a critter style cage is it? So some of the levels are full with a small gap and is all Square wire mesh. If so the just stick something over the hole to the second floor like a baking tray and wedge it in place and you have an ideal small cage. If not removing the levels is worth while


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## lalalauren

It's a "Rene rat" cage...I've just started cleaning and I've taken the shelves out , but I think they're integral to the overall structure of the thing...I'll see what I can do. 

It has vertical bars down the horizontal bars so I'm not sure I can stick anything in there...hold up, here's a pic...









I need to put a level or two back in it though, otherwise the roof will just pop off...

Ex alpha and bully had another bad fight tonight when I was eating my dinner next to the cage. Getting increasingly wary about tonight. What should I do if I hear those nasty shrieks?? I'm almost prepared to let the ex alpha go at it with the bully, but I'm not sure I can do that to my sissy. It's taken a lot of work and patience with him as it is to get him where he is now...should I reach in and separate? They've never drawn blood on one another...no matter how bad the fight sounds, I may be able to emerge unscathed 


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## lalalauren

Okay, I've put one level in and it's increased the structural integrity of the cage so much so I think that'll do.


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## lalalauren

I've upset the bully. I was playing with him a bit, and during the play, I like to pin and tickle a little...not aggressively, just to show that I can (used to do this with my old alpha and he loved it, it would always lead to him chasing my hand, and on some occasions, humping my hand, which I quickly bopped out of him just in case)...anyway, he bit me. Not badly, didn't draw any blood or leave a mark at all, but it was harder than the normal grooming nips. What with all that's been going on recently , and the fact that I have to leave my two sweet boys with him in a tiny cage over night, I bopped him on the head and pinned him slightly more aggressively...he was hiding from me at time of posting this, coming out and then running away when I put my hand near to him...he's come out now and is climbing over me. I'm still so so scared about tonight :/

Edit: okay no, he's climbing over me, but whenever I try to touch him, he runs.
Sigh, I'm really losing it here


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## lalalauren

Okay, so I bit the bullet and they're there. They absolutely love the scatter feeding, but mostly, they just seem to be upset and confused as to why they're in there with me sitting outside watching. There was a lot of climbing up the bars to get to me from everyone. They seemed to forget that they were scared of the bully, and the bully forgot he was a bully, as they all climbed over and under one another to get to me and didn't care who was in the way. Was sweet. 

I hope they can forgive me for this! 


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## Isamurat

Apologies I headed to bed early last night, tough day at work.

First off be careful when playing that way, especially with dominant hormone filled bucks, if he got truelly aggressive with it he needs to be kept an eye on, but it is quite hard on them and they can get into the mode and forget your human, still it sounds far to rough for even how he should treat another rat. If this happens again, especially without rough play, then its possibly a sign more drastic action is needed. For now rather than being playful with himtry lots of firm stroking, if youve ever seen people stroking a ferret along the full body that works, also firm scratches round his shoulder, most bucks get a lot out of this and it helps them see you as boss.

I hope the intros work, I scatter feed all the time to be honest, even 3 week old babies lol, but it is perfect for intros. If it doesnt work the neutering might be worth while, but its worth a shot.


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## lalalauren

That's okay, I like to post lots about this because it's therapeutic...it also helps you're giving me great advice 

I'll try hard strokes in future. He doesn't often stay still enough, but I have done that before and he'll sit fairly still for those until I'm done.

The night was a success! I barely heard a peep from them all night! Before I'd even fallen asleep, even the sissy was climbing over the bully (in a sort of apprehensive way). Ex alpha was humping bully a teeny bit, but bully wasn't really responding negatively. I think that was a fantastic exercise  where should I go from here? I'm going to put them back in the big cage because I don't know how much sleep they've had. 

Thanks so much for talking me through this. I fell asleep so happy last night watching things I never thought I'd see!


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## Isamurat

How are they in themselves, arethey relaxed around each other, or are they still a bit tense. If they are relaxed the move them to the bigger cage, it should be empty again and add I the substratefrom your small cage. You want to leave them like that u til they are relaxed around each other regularly. If they still tense occasionally or flinch etc then be strong and leave the in the small cage. It may seem cruel but if you can get them happy with each other faster it is a lot kinderin the long run. If you try them in the big cage then don't be afraid to move back if it doesn't work and this time give them a few days in the small cage. They actually cope very well with a few days in a small space. I've heard of big buck groups 12 or 13 strong in small hamster cages for a couple of weeks before they became a happy functioning pack. Typically though I find that most rats are ready to be back in a normal cage with normal decoration and stuff in a week or two. 

I know it helps to talk through these, I've got an intro coming up in a couple weeks and I'm already nervous lol, its always a tough time as an owner, even if you've done lots before. And that's withthe 2 of them being sons for one of my adult boys.


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## lalalauren

I moved them back into how big cage this morning so they could get some sleep. I don't think they slept much last night because they didn't have much to sleep on. It seemed they were moving constantly in the night.

I didn't add any of the substrate so I feel like I missed a trick there. But they do seem so much more relaxed around one another. Definitely were in the small cage anyway. I've been at work all day but my boyfriend was off and he spent most of the day in the rat room and said the only squeaks he heard was the bully trying to get into the hammock, which does often get a few squeaks as the other boys are sleepy and don't know what's going on.

I've been out tonight so not had time to free range, but they still seem tired. I'll be able to check to see if they're still tense either tonight (if they wake up) or tomorrow. I just really want the older boys to be comfortable coming out during free range again. That'd be nice to see. If I find that nothing had changed, am I okay to start his whole thing again without causing them too much stress?

Thanks so much for your help by the way. I really really appreciate it!


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## lalalauren

I just had them out for a bit (so so tired tonight, so not as long as I'd like). The bully is full of beans, as usual. He came out and climbed all over me, then climbed all over my boyfriend. The other boys came out of their hammock! Ex alpha was super tired, I think. He just wanted to sit and watch next to the open cage door. He was bruxing and boggling at me though, which he hasn't done for a while! Sissy rat full on came out of the cage, which was awesome. Cept he fluffed up his exit from the cage and scared himself >.> bully clocked him, as he does, and came running after him, but it wasn't as fast a run as normal. I don't know if I'm just reading more into that then it is, but I swear it was a more casual "hey look, a friend" sort of run, rather than a "lets go attack" sort of thing. Anyway, sissy rat hid under the cage because he doesn't like being run at, but there were no squeaks and bully didn't try and force him to play as far as I could see. There's definitely some work to be done, but we've made a decent start! And I get three days off at the weekend, so I'm willing to put much more time into it over the next few days. 

Do you have any tips for how to improve their interaction during free range? I want them to play like they used to :/ I feel like my free range room is too big given the behaviour problems at the moment. Should I move into a smaller room with less hidey holes? Or should I let them sort it out in the rat room? 

3 more days of meds left for the bully!! When this is over, I can finally stop taking him out of the cage without the others morning and night...I feel like this is having a detrimental effect on their relationship, but again, I might be reading more into this than there is 


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## nanashi7

I noticed play dynamics changed in my perfectly peaceful mischief when the play area expanded and included more things to do. I definitely prefer smaller spaces for bonding, bigger ones for playing. If that makes sense. 


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## lalalauren

That makes sense, yeah. Maybe a few bathroom sessions this weekend then!

Boyfriend was off work again today. He said he heard some squawks. I'll have to judge how they are I'm free range and see if they need a longer session in he small cage. I put the bully back in the main cage this evening after giving him medicine, and sissy rat was sat on the ledge right by the door. I normally just put bully back in as far away from sissy as possible so as not to cause a fight, but this time, I stuck bully right in sissy's face to see if he would do anything, and he didn't even flinch! So so happy 


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## lalalauren

He's nipping at me again >.> we had his problem a few weeks ago, but I haven't had it for a while since I started addressing the problem with some well-timed head bops. I feel like it's one step forward and two steps back.

I home now for three days. I think I want to try keeping them in the small cage for that time and see how it goes. The older boys still aren't as comfortable as id like them to be around him, and I don't think he's as happy as I'd like him to be as a result. 

I'm also concerned about how much larger he is compared to my other two and am wondering if this is hormones going out of control (although it could also be due to the fact that he's had treats morning and night for the past nearly for weeks due to his course of meds, but I don't think he looks fat or out of proportion). Like I said, I'll try some intense things over the weekend and see how it goes, but my hopes are low again >.>


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