# Shock, Stroke or Submission?



## RatMama67 (Mar 11, 2012)

My husband and I have had Jane for about two and a half months. We have gotten into the habit of bathing both her and her cagemate Arwen right after we clean their cage every week. The first time I bathed Jane, shortly before we brought Arwen home, Jane seemed to either enjoy the bath or at least to be resigned to it. Since we've been bathing both girls, Jane has gotten much less cooperative at bathtime. A few weeks ago, she jetted out of the sink onto my head, my husband's, banging into the tub and running around frantically - it's amazing she didn't hurt herself! We've been more careful about keeping a good hold on her - without squeezing - but today she freaked out in a way we've never seen.

As before, she launched herself out of the water and started ricocheting between us, then ran out the partially open bathroom door. My husband can be a little scary when he's angry or stressed, so he tore after her shouting, which may have been a little unnerving for her. When he cornered her (only 3 seconds later) near the pantry, she did the deer-in-headlights thing. When he picked her up, she was showing symptoms that scared the **** out of us:

Jane's whole body was rigid, with her front paws curled up, her eyes bulging, stomach deflated, teeth completely bared, jaw slackened. She wasn't moving. I took her from him, trying to murmur soothingly. I took her back to the sink and lowered her into the water slowly, and she didn't even seem to register it. It only took her a few minutes to relax her muscles and bring her eyes back into her head. It took a little longer for her nose to start twitching around and her whiskers to move at all. Within minutes, she was okay-ish - though still very docile, less responsive than usual. We put her back in the cage and she pressed herself against a corner (that's not unusual for her, really). She's moving around now, back to normal, though it took maybe 15 minutes.

Here's the question: the sites I have found say that playing dead is the sign of submission that we see, for example, when two rats wrestle and one wins - we've seen our girls doing that, this isn't it. The sites say that physiological shock is a critical emergency, that we'd need to rush her to the vet for some shots - but she seems fine now. Does anyone have any clue about what this was about, whether we should be worried about her being hurt in a way we haven't noticed yet?

Thanks for any insights you can offer.


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## TheServalRat (Feb 21, 2012)

Have you introduced your rats to water like so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7end071b3zA


...Also you should probably explain in detail what you do when giving these guys a bath, and details on what happened from the beginning of the chase to the end of it. It might shed some light into understanding the problem.


Though in my opinion she became terrified of the baths, and with the loud noises from your husband and being chase down to a corner might have been too much for the poor girl.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

I read a similar scenario except the trigger was the sound of a shower and the rat ran head first into a few walls before he was apprehended. I think stroke or some kind of fit is a possibility.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Rats do not need baths unless they get into something, or they are sick and unable to clean themselves...obviously your girl is terrified of the baths and then your husband scaring her even more. No fit, just fear. Slow things down, stop the unnecessary baths (rats are incredibly clean and bathing dries out their skin), work on bonding with them and work also at gentle touches, respecting their fears, and really getting to know them.


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

The book Watership Down uses the made up word 'tharn' to describe when an animal is frozen in terror - I thought of it immediately when I read this post. 

I agree with lilspaz 100%. No need to bathe her like that, she is obviously terrified. Small, patient, gentle steps will win her heart.


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

my rat Roxy fell into my bathtub i had running for my self, while running she was free range in the back of my house. when i found her she ws dead and i did cpr and brought her back. she still has a limp and the vet said she must have had a stroke in the tub, on the forum when i first posted we kinda wondered if she had panicked or got bubbles in her nose too. but if it was a stroke you should take her to vet just incase, i was very lucky with Roxy! i gve both my rats baths just by putting about an inch of water and gentle soap in the tub and let them run around and play while i keep a very close watch on them, then wash them off with fresh water and snuggle them in a towel to keep them warm, also lots of treats


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

I have to agree that the poor girl must've been absolutely terrified. Like lilspaz said, rat's do not need baths like dogs do and a bath every week is a bit much. 
Some rats can grow to like water, others can grow to hate it. Obviously, she's grown to hate it. An outright fear of baths plus being chased around had probably soured her on the idea for good. 
The best you can do for her is to stop with the unncessary baths, and be calm around her.


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## RatMama67 (Mar 11, 2012)

We bathe Jane because she always smells bad at the end of the week, with her tail dirty and dark. She doesn't seem to clean herself as well as her cagemate does. 

Baths are in the bathroom sink, half full of warm water - Jane poops whenever she wants us to put her back in the cage, so I let out the water and replace it before we start. I brace her torso with my left hand so her head is well above water, and wet her using a cup. I use a soft-bristled toothbrush and appropriate soap, always brushing the tail from base to tip, as a few sites have advised. Then I rinse out the water and refill the sink halfway to rinse her off, using a cup and/or my hand to rinse all the soap off. Then I towel dry her and return her to her cage, where she spends some time sorting herself out. She's only freaked out and made a run for it twice, and we sure as **** don't hurt her. 

We'll just keep doing what we're doing, taking care to be sweet and gentle. These last few days, she's been a bit more willing to be picked up out of her cage, and in an attempt at trust training, I've taken to carrying her in a hoodie pocket and petting her often. The first time, she seemed to prefer the safe hiding space of the pocket, but now she's gone back to moving around, inevitably chilling out on my shoulder without much movement. 

Incidentally, can you folks tell me whether these other quirks are normal for rats: she always poops all over me after about 10-15 minutes out of the cage, as if she's been saving them up to make us put her back (though she was poop free for a full half-hour today!); she rarely explores when we let her out, preferring to hide under the trunk the cage sits on; and when she's with me, she really does just sit on my shoulder, only moving from one to the other shoulder, often without wanting to explore or get away. Should we be concerned about any of these? - or is she just naturally more reserved as her rambunctious, adventurous, affectionate cagemate?

Thanks again for all your helpful tips.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Couple of possibilities with the poo, could be fear pooping (fix with more trust training), or she might just be busting. If you give her access to a litter tray when she's out, she'll probably use it.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The letting go of her poop all at once is another sign of nerves.

As for the bath. If she's not grooming her coat as well as she said, take a damp cloth and wipe her fur with it...she will then groom to get that "nasty wet" off. A lot less traumatic than a bath. 

The tail can be done every few weeks, use dawn dish soap if you have it. Some rats just stop grooming before they get to the tail, it happens, so don't expect a nice pink clean tail with these rats, there will always be staining, but just get the worst of it off and she'll be fine. I work the soap into the tail gently, and then "brush" it out with the tooth brush. Then a quick rinse under the tap and we're done.


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## CarrieD (Nov 20, 2011)

My rats climb around and explore more and more as their anxiety level decreases and they realize that this whole coming out business is kind of fun. It's instinctual for them to sit very quietly if they're fearful - and even freeze up and sort of glaze over like you saw before when they're extremely scared. 

Your girl may be anxious because she equates the trip out of the cage with the bath, which she's clearly terrified of. I'd try whatever I could think of to make time out positive and fun for her, (special treats and toys, gentle scritches), and would nix the bath thing in favor of wipes or a damp cloth if you really think she needs it. 

At this point, I really think her level of fear is going to make it tough to bond with her fully and it might be better to let he be a little untidy for your taste until she has a better trust bond with you.


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

my boy rat Sparty is really stinky and always gets into stuff, he has been having runny poo from his meds and he gets it in his fur :-( bleh! poor lil guy he needs baths every week! i try not to because he was abused and it will dry his skin out, but he doesnt bathe himself and he has a injury i have to keep clean. he doesnt know how to jump out of the tub yet thank goodness cuz i know hed run and get out of there asap, thats why i just let him run around in the very shallow water and ect also i use a little olive oil on him to moisterize him. your girl must lay and sleep in her potty area silly ratties :-/ do you have a tub to put her in maybe? with out water at first to let her get used to it then slowly add a bit of water and just do everything quietly and calmly and let her walk around? i dunno if thats possible or if it will work, but thats kinda what i did with my boy because hes so scared of everything :-( hopefully something helps! oh and i do use these costco natural baby wipes made with aloe to clean them in between baths, i like them because they dont have scents or alchol so its super gentle and it helps with stinky rats a little  good luck!


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## PitterPatter (Feb 28, 2012)

I read over a lot of this.. but has anyone thought of sponge bathing?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

PitterPatter said:


> I read over a lot of this.. but has anyone thought of sponge bathing?


That's what wiping her fur with a damp cloth is


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## Bright.Side (Dec 19, 2011)

PitterPatter said:


> I read over a lot of this.. but has anyone thought of sponge bathing?


Lol, I was actually about to suggest that. If she's as terrified of the water as she seems to be, that would definitely be the most safe and stress free method.


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