# Two Pregnant By Wild Male



## CaptainTripp

Hello, this is my first time having female rats and their names are Queen and Alice. I got them from a friend that had babies about two months ago when they were five weeks old. Both of my girls are clearly pregnant as I saw a wild (I'm guessing male) rat in my rat room while the girls were out. It has been about 20 days since then and I can't get my girls to separate. Both are HUGE and even though I gave two nesting boxes they both nested in only one. They are both laying together and wont let me pick up one without the other. I tried separating them but they both stressed out and Alice chewed through the plastic of her cage to try to get to her sister. When together they do perfectly fine and I noticed they are not leaving the box but to eat, drink, and potty. I haven't had babies before and I'm terrified. I've been up all night since their bellies seem to have gotten larger, more rounded, and are sitting lower then they were yesterday.

What should I look for as far as labor signs and how could I separate them without them stressing out? 

Thank you!


----------



## InuLing

First of all try not to hover. It can stress them out and they can sense your worry. Most of us had the babies born overnight or while we were away from the house. In the majority of cases rats are great and you don't need to worry. (I know, easier said than done.) My mocha went into labor as I was on the way out the door to work and I had no choice but to leave her. I rushed home at lunchtime to see she had 16 beautiful babies. She didn't need my help and was probably happier without me hovering over her.

Signs of labor are often subtle in rats. Rippling abdomen and arching back are two of them. My girl also had bristled out fur while she was in labor. For most people, they know they have babies when they hear them squeaking.

As for separating the two girls, it would be ideal but not at the detriment of the rats. The biggest issue with housing nursing mothers together is that they love babies so much they have a tendency to try and steal babies from other mothers' nests. This can lead to a tug-of-war that can do damage to the little ones' tender skin. I imagine if they're nesting together than the chance of this is much lower, and them working together would allow them to give each other breaks. Since your first attempt to separate them didn't work, I'd leave them be and if they try to steal babies from each other then separate them but keep a close watch on them. If they're ignoring the babies to try and get to each other then you might just have to let them be together.


----------



## CaptainTripp

The girls have been extremely clingy today when they usually aren't. Both are waning to cuddle in my lap on their backs. It seems like their girl bits are more open. I gave them some shop towels (paper towels that are more like cloth that don't stick) and they are now shredding them like crazy in their nesting box. I think we will have the babies sometime tomorrow (I hope). I also covered the Cage with thick blankets and I'm keeping the room at 78 degrees so it stays warm. Is there anything else I need to do? I'm only checking on them every few hours and when i give them food, water, more nesting materials.


----------



## InuLing

Just keep an eye on them and make sure you know an emergency vet on the 1% chance something does go wrong while your vet is closed. If you'd like you can give them some egg. A little extra protein is good for their milk. As long as they're staying hydrated they should be fine.


----------



## RatAtat2693

Wow...

I want pics when they get here (please).

Are you anywhere near VT?


----------



## Gribouilli

I wouldn't cover the cage with thick blankets as it impair air flow and you could have an ammonia build in the air they breath. Have you moved her to a nursing cage where no baby could get out of it or being throw out of it by their mom or the other rat?


----------



## CaptainTripp

I came home to both girls licking their bitsand generally uncomfortable. They are in their regular cage with a 6in base and 1/3in bar spacing. Only the sides and top are covered, the back and front are open with plenty of air flow. Both girls refuse to separate and all I did was stress them out two days ago when I tried to. After talking to a local breeder he said to leave them in the same nest. They are both still living cuddles and back rubs though I haven't let them out today since they are due tomorrow. I haven't really seen the babies move in Queen's tummy since I got home but she isn't stressed and Alice is fixing the nest with Queen so I'll check back on them in a hour or so. They have their own room so I'm keeping things dim and quiet.


----------



## Gribouilli

If they are on a table, put the cage in a way that if a mom throw a baby out of the cage it doesn't fall to the ground. If you find the baby on time, put it back into the cage. Sometimes the mom will change her mind and nurse it again. It can happen when the litter is too big, mom is undernourished, or baby has some genetic defect (in that case the baby will most likely die). It could be that the mom is not producing enough milk too, or is too stressed out.


----------



## InuLing

I never saw babies moving in Mocha despite her having 18 inside so I wouldn't count on that as a sign. Good luck. Definitely want to see pictures after they're born. Don't forget to lure the moms away and put them somewhere else before touching the babies or they may bite to try and protect them.


----------



## Rat Daddy

I might add one footnote... If the babies are half or part wild, you will need to socialize them very young... I mean hands on by the time they get their eyes open.... Wild rats will bond with humans as pups and they can be very very sweet, but they have a serious vicious streak and they will hurt you in a very bad way if they aren't socialized as pups. You can't safely socialize an older rat, they are just too dangerous to handle. 

Wild rats and part wild rats also tend to bond to a single human or single human family... They don't often like all humans, nor do they like all rats... They are big on their family and their pack and will defend their families and packs from strangers, both rat and human.... 

It's critical that you start working with your pups ASAP and get them to their forever homes as soon as possible.... 

Wild and part wild rats are more like pet wolves than pet dogs. They can be super friendly and absolutely amazing animals or they can become dangerous nightmares. No matter how you turn it, they aren't likely to be domestic or docile... and most will bite hard and repetitively if sufficiently provoked or frightened, but with proper care and handling they can become outstanding little furry friends, even if they are always insurance liabilities to some degree. 

If you grabbed our part wild rat, you were headed to the emergency room, on the other hand she was the first one who came when called and would jump up on hand on command every time. Good socialization made her a very special pet. She only bit me once, when I blocked her from killing a mouse... bit it was deep and she tore flesh... And she shredded my neighbor's hand when he tried to grab her.... And she grabbed our other rat by the trachea when our other rat tried to push her around... She was never ever aggressive, but when she lost her composure she got vicious and dangerous in half an eye blink. 

Socialize your pups right from the start, get them to their forever homes young, train them well and never pi** them off. That's the recipe for success.

And by the way, wild and part wild rats can jump and climb like squirrels... and do things domestic rats never dreamed of like squish under doors... They can also be a bit scary when they play fight with you, because they tend to jump at your face and mock chew bite rather than just mock bite once. They are just playing, and most likely won't hurt you, but don't let it get too out of hand once they get older.

Best luck.


----------



## Gribouilli

If you don't have two water bottles in their cage, add one. Water bottles stop functioning more often than one thinks and if this happens the mom won't be able to produce milk, and the babies could die within a few hours. Good luck looking forward to baby pics and updates


----------



## CaptainTripp

They have a large cage so it's on the floor. I removed all levels and hammocks and such. I've been feeding them more protien and steamed veggies, I change the water daily. I'll get pictures posted but the lights off so it's a little dark. Queen is in the nest resting and Alice is gathering more materials.


----------



## Gribouilli

Veggies are great and will also keep them well hydrated to produce enough milk. Do they have two water bottles?


----------



## CaptainTripp

Yes I have two large water bottles that are checked daily to make sure they are working. Both girls are resting so I'm going to leave them be for a hour or two and will check back with them soon.


----------



## Gribouilli

Were you able to catch the wild rat in your house?


----------



## CaptainTripp

Sadly my cat got a hold of him a few days ago.


----------



## Gribouilli

Do you think you have more wild rats in your house? It is quite likely as rats live in groups and leave scent marks to find their way back


----------



## CaptainTripp

Possibly but I won't be letting the girls out without me watching them and I have out live traps. Luckily I have tile so I've been bleaching the floors so hopefully that'll help. I plan on keeping most of these babies but I definatly don't want them pregnant again.


----------



## JAnimal

I belive rats can mate through the bars of the cage. You will have to be very careful.


----------



## CaptainTripp

I wouldn't think that would be possible with such a small spacing in the bars, but I'm deffinatly trying to get them out of my house.


----------



## Gribouilli

JAnimal said:


> I belive rats can mate through the bars of the cage. You will have to be very careful.


Fortunately they can't. I once thought that they could too, but they can't put themselves in the correct position to mate through the bars. Females need to put themselves in the lordosis position and males need to hold on to them- both can't happen through the bars of a cage.


----------



## Gribouilli

Wild rats could open the cage though (unless the cage is something like a critter nation) and mate that way, or even kill the babies. Female rats can get pregnant while still nursing their previous litter.


----------



## CaptainTripp

All doors in the cage are clipped closed because mine can open it haha but the one we've seen is gone and traps have been empty. We typically don't get wild rats/move with the two cats around. I was supprised to see the one that was here.


----------



## JAnimal

Gribouilli said:


> Fortunately they can't. I once thought that they could too, but they can't put themselves in the correct position to mate through the bars. Females need to put themselves in the lordosis position and males need to hold on to them- both can't happen through the bars of a cage.


Good to know!


----------



## Rat Daddy

Keeping two litters of half wild rats? Wow, that's going to be a whole lot of fun! Even perfectly socialized these little critters are going to move at about warp 9 until they get older and slow down... On the up side... part wild rats can be pretty reclusive so you might not see them too much once they get into the furniture.


----------



## CaptainTripp

I want to check in the girls and both have a clear discharge. Is that normal?


----------



## Gribouilli

How are they doing? Any babies yet?


----------



## CaptainTripp

Alice just finished giving birth and Queen is having contractions!


----------



## Gribouilli

Whoa how exciting fingers crossed everything goes well.


----------



## InuLing

Wow good luck to you and I'm looking forward to pictures


----------



## Simons_mom

How are the new Mamas?


----------



## catty-ratty

Peppermint essential oil is supposed to be good at deterring rats and mice. Peppermint extract, as in baking peppermint won't work. Put some on a cotton and at various places in, around and under the house. 

I had some mice in my closet last year. I found out where they were getting and put peppermint there. So far, I haven't seen evidence again in any area of the house since then. It might be worth noting that when we moved in last year, a person would have to be blind not to see all the mouse dropping around the house. I know that there were mice at one time. They are apparently gone now. Hoping I'm not jinxing the situation by saying that!


----------



## RatAtat2693

JAnimal said:


> I belive rats can mate through the bars of the cage. You will have to be very careful.


...that's dogs...


----------



## CaptainTripp

I'm trying to get pictures of the moms nursing together but they seem to think that anytime I enter the room it's time to play and beg for love. I got to see babies individually while moms got some free time for a good 15 min. One babie has a wound on its tail that I noticed after birth, mom is keeping it clean and it looks better. Well here's the final count:

25 total
13 boys
12 girls
Everyone is very well feed with little milk bellies. Nice and pink and warm though a few look darker than the others. Both moms are looking really good and are eating/drinking well. Two babies look like they will have ruby eyes.


----------



## Gribouilli

Whoa that's a lot of babies how many are you going to keep? What do you feed the moms?


----------



## CaptainTripp

Rat mix, treat mix, blocks, and I cook them fresh meals three times a day. I plan to keep all of the girls and maybe even half of the boys. I have homes lined up for at lest the boys with family and friends that already bought their cages and set ups.


----------



## Gribouilli

CaptainTripp said:


> Rat mix, treat mix, blocks, and I cook them fresh meals three times a day. I plan to keep all of the girls and maybe even half of the boys. I have homes lined up for at lest the boys with family and friends that already bought their cages and set ups.


Sounds great, how many total rats will you have including the babies you plan on keeping?


----------



## CaptainTripp

17 or so. Maybe more maybe less. I'm joinh out Friday to get materials to build a large cage for the girls, the boys will get the one the girls are in now unless I keep a lot of them than I'll but a second one.


----------



## Rat Daddy

That is a lot of half wild rats to socialize! If any go feral, your life will be a living nightmare. Expect to put in a lot of time with them. Wild, half wild and part wild rats actually do make great furry friend if they are well bonded to you... kind of like "pet wolves". 

We loved our part wild girl, she was absolutely outrageous, she was an intriguing balance of cuddly-sweet and stone cold vicious, like having two rats in one... so there's a part of me that really envies you. On the other hand, there's a part of me that would kill the part that envies you if it ever brought home a dozen or more half wild rat pups.

Best luck


----------



## CaptainTripp

After talking to some breeders we believe the male was from a domestic stock that either got out of was dumped. He had white feet and looked like some white on his belly. The babies are a mix of colors from bagie to agouti to pitch black. Most are black or agouti hooded, with two being ruby/pink eyed bagie/white and a hand full being solid black/agouti.


----------



## RatAtat2693

I'd still assume wild until proven otherwise. Either way, 17 is a big number even for completely tame rats!


----------



## Rat Daddy

Most half wild rats are supposed to be agouti, but our part wild wasn't... She lived outdoors on her own for 5 months and wasn't anything like any domestic rat I've ever known....

And she wasn't agouti...

One of the rats below was the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat and one was our part wild... Can you tell who is who?















Our neighbor couldn't tell the difference and grabbed the wrong one... and got his hand shredded for his trouble. And yes, if you can't tell by the photos, our part wild rat was a wonderful family member... She loved my daughter who could do anything with herm she got along with Fuzzy Rat and I mostly kept my fingers away from her sharp end if she started looking upset, but otherwise she napped in my lap.

If the rat that got into your house was a half wild and mated with your domestic odds are many if not most would look like a domestic rat, in which case you don't have half wilds you have part wilds like our girl. What's the difference? Like wolves in sheep's clothing part wilds don't look as terrifying as wild rats...

When you start play fighting with your pups you will be able to tell what they are. Wilds and part wilds can really jump like squirrels and they can go flat and squish under almost anything and when they play fight, they don't mock bite you... them mock tear you apart... and they like to jump at your face. They won't hurt you, but if you aren't at least a little freaked out, daddy was a domestic rat.

Just remember if you get bit once by a wild rat, you're lucky... you didn't get bitten a dozen more times. They bite hard and they don't stop until they know they really hurt you.


----------



## catty-ratty

In your lap, the one on the left appears to have a longer, more narrow face and bigger ears. If the dad was a roof rat, I would guess that the one on the left is Fuzzy Rat.

With your daughter, I would say the one on the right.


----------



## Rat Daddy

Towards the rear in the first photo and On your right in the second as you look at the pics. Fuzzy Rat had the smudge on her back and was a meat rat so she got a lot thicker. She wasn't a roofie, but she stayed slim all of her life. The heaviest she ever got was in the second photo right after thanksgiving and then she all but stopped eating until she was slim again. It's likely the only recorded case of a rat going on a diet voluntarily. IN any event, you would have never suspected Fluffy was a wild type rat.

We found her in a snake food bin... a customer had brought her in and she had been handled, supposedly by a little girl like mine. She looked friendly and she had a really sharp look about her... No one said anything about being part wild.... until at about 5 weeks old she jumped from my desk to my face and started mock chewing up my nose... Even my daughter became terrified of her new pet until we realized she didn't really bite. When she moved outdoors, we assumed she was dead and adopted Fuzzy Rat, until something started chasing the feral cats away. We started Joking that Fluffy was still out there... but, wild rats and part wild rats don't die outdoors, they are born with certain skills and they adapt. Having an intimate knowledge of humans is actually a survival bonus in a suburban environment. When we got her back, her tail was filthy, and she stank like pit bull terrier. but otherwise she didn't have a single hair out of place. Talk about a sleek and slick looking rat.


----------



## catty-ratty

Did she decide to come home on her own? Was she still living around your house that whole time?


----------



## Rat Daddy

Actually my wife spotted a "headless" white animal in the yard one evening... we ran out and called her, but she didn't come back... it was still summer and she was very happy outdoors. When it got colder, she was apparently living with the neighbors house part of the time and possibly even in ours... This rat could literally evaporate into any shadow. She would watch your eyes from the shadows and when you looked away she would slink across the room, you sort of saw something move in the corner of your eye, but didn't know what it was... and she would make an opening into the bottom of every piece of furniture to vanish into if you looked. My neighbors spotted her eating alongside their pitbull terriers and she had tunnels through the walls in their house. He had met Fuzzy Rat and didn't know about Fluffy, so one day he spotted her in his living room and decided to catch her for us.. Which turned out to be a terrible mistake. He really got hurt bad. His wife came over and asked us if we had lost our rat, and I said no... then she showed us a pic on her phone... and there was Fluffy. When I got to my neighbors house with a live catch trap.. the fellow had his kids and dogs penned up in the bedroom and was starting to tear out the sheet rock. His arm was wrapped in a bath towel soaked in blood... He was x-special forces just back from Iraq and he was on a mission. There wasn't any time for live trapping, another special forces type showed up with implements of destruction and they were about to tear their landlords house down from the inside out. So I sat down on the floor in front of the hole in the wall and called her out, it took a while for her to calm down, but she finally came out to me... I was pretty terrified in light of what she had done to the neighbor.. so I plunked her into the travel cage and got her home... My neighbors wife had apparently recorded the attack and the recovery on her phone... I offered to take the fellow to the hospital but he declined. So as it looked like I wasn't going to get hit for a huge hospital bill and all was calm... I got the heck out of there before anyone changed their minds... I never saw the video. When I got home, I opened the travel cage and Fluffy came out and napped on my lap for a very long time... I think it seemed longer because I was still pretty terrified of her having seen what she was now capable of. My daughter came in... now about 6 years old and she took Fluffy from me and started playing rag doll with her... I think I died about a thousand deaths in the first few minutes, but Fluffy seemed happy to be home and everything went well... 

A few days later she evaporated again... She could find ways into the walls. We found her nesting in the towels and when I pulled her out she turned into a ball of fangs and fur like the Tasmanian devil cartoon... she didn't bite me and I dropped her in surprise... and she evaporated again... but she came back when recalled... Lesson learned... when I call, she comes, when try to grab her she becomes unhinged and dangerous... I never tried to grab her again. On the other hand, my daughter would stuff her into doll clothes and toss her around like a rag doll. It would really have been a lot cuter, if I could breathe when she was doing it. One day I left Fluffy on a windowsill and she evaporated, when I recalled her I watched her put her back against a cabinet and walk straight up the wall, reach over and take the blind cord, and climb the cord back to the sill... She could do so many things domestic rats couldn't even dream of... like hop over 4 foot barricades I put between rooms.

Actually to hijack this thread a bit farther... One day I had Fluffy and Fuzzy Rat in my office. Fluffy was completely house safe, she never did any damage... her thing was being invisible... But Fuzzy Rat had cut some wires and I didn't want her free ranging at the time. Fluffy hopped over the barricade of computer boxes in the doorway and Fuzzy Rat couldn't follow. Then Fluffy hopped back into the room. There was a thick extension cord going from room to room draped over the boxes and Fluffy started running up and down the cord until Fuzzy Rat followed her up and over the barricade. I likely should have been thinking that teaching Fuzzy Rat to overcome a barricade was a bad thing. But I had never seen a rat actually teach another rat something before. This wasn't simply copy cat behavior... it was one rat assessing another rats situation and intentionally teaching it something to solve it's problem... Fluffy didn't need to climb the cord, she could easily jump over the barricade. But when she realized Fuzzy Rat couldn't, she taught her to solve her problem too. I was worth risking a few electrical wires to watch that.

Wild and part wild rats are smart and they are born with survival skills... and they are faster and more agile than domestic rats times ten... They have a deep and wide vicious streak, if pushed too far, they hunt and kill small animals (another story) but they are just like our pet rats in that they are pack animals and love their families, even if they don't generally learn to trust humans in general. When people say that wild rats are like wolves and domestic rats are like dogs, they are right. Pet wild rats are like pet wolves. I suppose I would adopt another one, if I got it as a very young pup and really had the time to work with it. They are friendly and furry little hand grenades they aren't likely to go off as long as you treat them properly.. on the other hand I'm thinking I might not want to be in a house with lots of super agile furry little hand grenades romping around me that might not be completely socialized. In any event keep them away from people they don't know or bad things can happen fast.


----------



## catty-ratty

Okay, I had to reread all three posts to realize you were talking about another rat that wasn't Fuzzy Rat. I thought you've said that Fuzzy was part wild. 

I've never seen you mention Fluffy. Haven't you also said that Fuzzy Rat was part wild also??

Anga was scaling the sheer metal leg of a table in my studio earlier today. Can domestic rats do that? 

I seriously don't think there is a single place in this house she hasn't managed to get to yet. I'm grateful that she clearly understands it's not okay to chew cords or I'd be in a lot of trouble. She's actually pretty good about not chewing on things in general. At least not that I've seen anyway! 

I think she is a weirdo rat! She would rather play with the cats and dogs. She taunts the German Shepherd. She'll run up behind him too get his attention. When he turns to go after her, she darts under something, sitting just out of his reach! She does this to him over and over all day long!

Last night, I was giving a slice of cheese to my cat Mia. Like a flash of light, Anga pulled it out of my cats mouth and pounced off with it! My cat had the strangest look of surprise on her face! I wish I could have caught that on film!


----------



## Rat Daddy

Fuzzy Rat was a bred-for-meat rat from a rat mill most likely in upstate NY. She reached a size of 21 oz before she got tumors and was buried in a shoe box that she barely fit into... She could never jump to save her life, but she could run long distances and climb very well.

All rats have some abilities to climb and jump and squish themselves flat. But over time domestic rats have lost some of them or some of them to some point. Natural selection keeps wild rats lean and mean. The smartest, the fastest and those with the most energy, and highest sensitivity levels survive. 

What's desirable in a wild rat is not so good in a pet rat... At the slightest unexplained sound Fluffy would evaporate into thin air, she wouldn't eat foods she didn't know, she was fast and high strung and if she lost her cool she was dangerous... these are not good pet rat traits.

A good pet rat is docile, calm and squishy. A little inactive is desirable for most people. Rats that bite are bad, but those that tear flesh with a vengeance are really unpopular in our fancy. Wild rats are great hunters, but pet rats that stalk and kill your gerbils or other small animals... well they're not what most people are looking for.

We've had several rats... they range form our part wild to super docile, most were somewhere in between. Just because breeders have worked for generations to breed out the wild traits doesn't mean they are all gone. Some domestic rats are still picky eaters, some are good jumpers or good climbers, some are still high strung and skittish. Think of this like in dogs... there are attack dogs and there are lap dogs... there are hounds and work dogs, but all of the traits that a line of dog is bred for came from the original wild wolf. Nothing was actually added to wolves to make dogs.. mostly certain traits were just bred out, but if they were all gone, there wouldn't be much left that could be called a dog. 

Wild rats have all of the great traits we cherish in our pet rats.. they are loyal and bond with their packs. They are social animals that want to be part of a family and they can really love us, but they also have the traits we don't want in our pets... like a killer instinct or a strong aversion to animals and people they don't know. 

Many domestic rats still have some wild traits left, but overall wild rats are like wolves while domestic ones are like dogs... And I suppose even among wild rats, some are going to be more docile than others so the sword cuts both ways.

I don't often talk about Fluffy, because most of the things we learned from her just don't apply to domestic rats. People shouldn't get the wrong idea about their furry friends... But on a thread about half wild rats, I think it's important that people know what they are getting into. Wild rats and part wild rats are great! But they come with a lot of responsibility and more than a few hazards. 

I'm dying to know how this thread progresses.


----------



## Ratlettes

Updates???????? Wow


----------



## Ratlettes

Oh my bad ahh I didn't realize there was like 2 more pages


----------



## keenkitty

I need to see more. I have baby fever


----------

