# Nervous owner trying to trust train nervous rats, and it is not going well



## Topple (Jan 11, 2018)

Hey everyone.

Just so you know, I have already read the sticky on trust training, as well as other resources online. I am just concerned about the specifics of my situation. 

I've had my three (5 week old) boys for four days now, and for the first few days I mostly let them adjust, but yesterday and today I've been trying to coax them out and touch them and get them to crawl on my hand. It seems like (when they know I have treats) they will come right up to the cage door, and even climb on it and poke their noses out, but they scatter as soon as I open it up. Then maybe one or two of the brave ones will creep up slowly to my hand if I push it far back in the cage, but it might take 10-15 minutes of standing there to get them to actually grab the treat and run off. The shyest rat will rarely even come out of his hiding spot. And all of them will only come about halfway to the open door of the cage, maximally, when the door is open. I have even been trying to shave off long slices of vegetables that I can try to hold to make them stand near me while they eat, but they usually just give up after it doesn't immediately come loose and they don't come back out again. 

Today I was feeling impatient and sort of talked to them through the bars while they are in their nest, then reached in and tried to pet one. They all freaked and scattered, then afterwards were so obviously terrified that I could not bring myself to try again. One of them was even giving tiny squeaks when I stood on the other side of the cage up until I left, which I assume means he was scared. It breaks my heart. I figure my biggest mistake was reaching into their "safe area" and not waiting until they showed at least a little curiosity by stepping closer themselves. 

Someone suggested to me that I stop trying to be patient and just grab them and teach them that being held just has to happen sometimes. I can see the logic in it, but part of me is hoping I can do it with out totally making them **** themselves. That seems a little counter productive? At the same time, I am going to have to clean their cage within the week, and so I will definitely have to pick them up and move them before they are totally comfortable. I have read that you should try to grab them quickly, because the fear comes mostly from the approach, but they can always see me coming because the cage is really large, so they're already afraid by the time my hand reaches them. 

They have this hideout in the back corner of the cage, and spend almost 100% of their time there. It is their safe area, but I'm thinking I might have to actually remove it from the cage since it makes it so hard to see and reach them while they're buried in all the fabric, and since they are still afraid of me, I'd like to force a little bit more closeness. They have an igloo in the cage and another wooden hideout, so they still wouldn't have to be exposed if they still wanted to hide. But will taking away their "safe house" terrify them even more? I feel like I am making so many mistakes already, and I just want to help this process go more smoothly.

Any help would be appreciated!


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## Topple (Jan 11, 2018)

Yet another question -- I am considering taking their food dish away for the night, so they might be more eager to come over to me when I approach them with food tomorrow. Would taking the food and the hiding area away at once be too much for them?


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## Shadow <3 (Jan 25, 2017)

How you go about taming your rats is really up to you. Personally, I guess you can call me the "impatient" type because I just pick them up, no if's or but's about it. I've never gotten tame rats, in fact with the exception of one particularly confident and sweet girl all of them started out very shy. The majority of them turned into amazing pets after they learned to trust me though, so initial behavior doesn't always correlate with a rats true personality. Also wanted to mention before I get started, the best taming treat is a liquid one. Solid treats are easy for the rat to grab and run away, which defeats the purpose of giving them (you want the rat to associate the positive aspects of food with your hand, and this won't happen unless they're eating next to you). They also require the rat to do more work (i.e. chew), which a scared animal is not going to feel comfortable doing. So to combat this, use a liquid treat like meat baby food (super yummy and smelly, so a rat favorite) to get them accustomed to eating next to you. It will motivate them to actually eat while your around, and once they learn to eat it off a spoon, you can transition to having them lick it off your hands.




Anyway, the way I do taming is I take out my new rats (on their first day home - actually, I usually start handling them only 15-30 minutes after getting them home) and place them in a small pen, one that's just a tad bigger than me sitting cross legged. They can walk around and explore, although on the first day they tend to stick to my lap and hoody (I usually wear a hoody or blanket they can burrow inside - rats love warm dark places). I'll bring meat baby food with me as well, and feed it off my fingers to the ones in my lap. I'll also practice picking up each rat and putting them down immediately. They quickly learn that being picked up does not equal being restrained, and since I start offering meat baby food off my free hand while I'm lifting them (I hold them firm yet gentle, so that they can't fall yet can wiggle away if they want to), begin to see it as a positive experience. (If your rats won''t accept something like meat baby food right away, leave a small bit in the cage for 30 minutes while you do stuff in another room. Once they eat some, they'll most likely realize they love it and be much more willing to eat it when you offer).




The way I see, with skittish rats, you have two options. The trust training route is easier on you, as the rats make every forward move and you never have to push them or see them being super afraid. However, skittish rats may never make the first move (I had a skittish girl who I couldn't handle for 2 months as I was trying trust training alone, and she was too afraid to do more than just lick baby food from her hide. After handling her calmly for a week, she started actually coming out to see me and eating food confidently off my hand. My guess is she never had the confidence to interact with me, but after being "forced" to do so, started associating it with more positive things like food and free-range), and you can be stuck in taming limbo. 


With a more "forceful" route, where the rat can decide to get away yet you do force them to experience being handled on a daily basis, you essentially make the first move for them. Once they realize that handling isn't so bad (and being domestic animals, they acclimatize to handling quite quickly), they'll be more curious about you and more confident when interacting. Being picked up is usually a skittish rat's worst fear, so once they learn to tolerate (and later, even enjoy) it, everything else follows pretty smoothly.




I also do most of my taming outside the cage. The cage has all the things a rat needs, food, water, toys, companions, so if they aren't naturally curious about you, what motivation do they have to initiate interactions ? Nothing really, as while food is super motivating to rats, a scared rat isn't going to feel safe enough to eat. By removing the rats from their habitat and leaving only me as a hiding space, I essentially become the "safe spot", and the rats learn to associate everything about me with feeling safe (and with their favorite treat, meat baby food ).




My most skittish girls came to me super shy, as in "will barely stick their head out of their hide for the tastiest treat" shy. They would poop and pee themselves when held, and squeak scream in the most pitiful manner when touched or held. Both also froze solid the first time I picked them up, and ignored any and all treats unless their cagemates were there with them.


To combat this, I took the each rat (along with any cagemates) out into this small taming pen, and as I said above, focused on accustoming them to handling. It took a few days for each to stop freaking out whenever I lifted them, but in comparison to the 2 months of stagnation with Sonic (the first shy girl), this progress felt amazingly fast. A week later, both would accept food from me in the cage, and even started learning to jump to my hand for a treat (one of my favorite "trust" tricks as the rat decides to jump to your hand on their own, further building their confidence and trust in you). It took about 2 weeks of daily handling for both girls to begin to relax and volunteer to be held, but after the first few days, holding them no longer scared them shitless (literally!). 






To be honest, I doubt I'll ever go back to solely using trust training to tame my rats. In most cases, you'll get a tame rat no matter what methods you use. But I'd rather my rats be a bit more scared for a few days, then scared over a long duration of time.




(I forgot to mention this above, but I also start my new rats out in a bare bones cage. That means food, water, a hammock, and one hide. Nothing too stimulating, as this way they want to get out and interact with me. After a few days, I add in more flat toys like ladders and space pods. And once they become fully hand tame, all the enclosed toys like boxes and huts go back in the cage, as I know they'll no longer be hard to catch (chasing a scared rat around the cage to take them out scares them much more than being cornered and lifted on the first attempt)





Good luck taming your rats, and no matter what method you decide to use, keep it up! I really recommend you get a liquid treat like meat baby food as well, it will go far in helping the rats decide to eat treats around you, and I've never yet encountered a rat that doesn't adore the stuff.


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## Shadow <3 (Jan 25, 2017)

For your food question, if you want, you can certainly try a hour or two without food (but I wouldn't do a whole night). Besides, rats are pretty much eternally hungry, so an hour or so will already motivate them just as much as a longer amount.




But I still think the best thing to do is use liquid treats. Liquid treats force the rat to stay with you, and motivate them FAR beyond any solid treat. And if you use something like meat baby food, your rats are almost guaranteed to go crazy for it (all of mine will do anything for some meat baby food, and its saved me many times when medicating the rats, as they'll eat it when sick and the taste covers even the bitter taste of Baytril).


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## Topple (Jan 11, 2018)

Thank you so much for the detailed reply! Sometimes I think I am more scared than my ratties are, because I want so much for them to feel safe and calm and to learn to like me. I will definitely be going out to buy some meat baby food tomorrow, since this is the second time it's been suggested to me. I tried applesauce on a spoon, but they don't seem to really love it enough to take it unless I literally put the spoon to their mouths.

Tomorrow I am going to try sitting in a playpen with them like you suggested, with some of that baby food, and see if I can get them to warm up.


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## Topple (Jan 11, 2018)

Shadow <3 said:


> But I still think the best thing to do is use liquid treats. Liquid treats force the rat to stay with you, and motivate them FAR beyond any solid treat. And if you use something like meat baby food, your rats are almost guaranteed to go crazy for it (all of mine will do anything for some meat baby food, and its saved me many times when medicating the rats, as they'll eat it when sick and the taste covers even the bitter taste of Baytril).


Oh my goodness, I just want to thank you again for this suggestion. I went out to get some meat baby food today, and had all three boys at the open door of the cage licking it off the spoon, and two of them even gave my hand a few curious sniffs and tried climbing on it while I held the spoon. I still wasn't able to reach out to pet any without having them scatter, but still, this is such a gigantic difference from yesterday and I am so relieved. I think later this evening I might even be able to lure them out of the cage into a playpen with me for the treats - they absolutely love it. Thank you!


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## Shadow <3 (Jan 25, 2017)

Topple said:


> Oh my goodness, I just want to thank you again for this suggestion. I went out to get some meat baby food today, and had all three boys at the open door of the cage licking it off the spoon, and two of them even gave my hand a few curious sniffs and tried climbing on it while I held the spoon. I still wasn't able to reach out to pet any without having them scatter, but still, this is such a gigantic difference from yesterday and I am so relieved. I think later this evening I might even be able to lure them out of the cage into a playpen with me for the treats - they absolutely love it. Thank you!



Glad to hear! Its funny how obsessed rats seem to be with meat baby food, its like some sort of ambrosia to them


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## ratatat tat (Apr 27, 2018)

Can I ask about your taming pen? Is it just a tote or something similar? We have two new little girls and are just a bit skittish and hide in their igloo most of the time. One especially. I would also like to ask about your free range area. How do you set that up? Thanks!


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## desdisques (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm in the middle of trust training my first rats right now also. I'm using a very slow patient approach. It's been a week with slow treat baiting several times a day and now they will all let me pet them and willingly come up to me for treats. They will not let me hold them yet. I think maybe you just need more patience with them. My boys are about 9-10 weeks now. Even among the 3 there is a range from the most brave to most scared.

I'm really new to this but I would say give them more time of just food reinforcement, don't try holding yet. What I did a lot the first couple days was open the doors, sit nearby and lay treats by the cage's edge. That way I wasn't directly holding my hand in the cage, but they would have to run to the edge to claim a treat, and could then go back to their hut to eat it. And come out for more. That way they were coming near me but didn't have to face the "big scary hand." They are very conscious of the cage edge and won't run or jump off even with the doors wide open. (At least that's how mine are in a SCN)

Good luck and I feel your pain! I so badly want them to love and trust me, but I know it's a relationship I have to build bit by bit.


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## Topple (Jan 11, 2018)

ratatat tat said:


> Can I ask about your taming pen? Is it just a tote or something similar? We have two new little girls and are just a bit skittish and hide in their igloo most of the time. One especially. I would also like to ask about your free range area. How do you set that up? Thanks!


My free range area was originally a bunch of cheap cardboard poster boards (like the kind used for science fairs) just duct taped together. One of my boys nearly made it over the 2.5 foot wall after climbing up on my knees for height, so it does still make me nervous to have them out in it, but I still use it occasionally and it's pretty handy (just make sure they don't have anything like a tall box they can climb on top of for more height to jump over)

That said - if a rat does escape, you can probably chase her down and throw a towel over her to scoop him up and carry him back. It's not quite as hard to catch a rat as I expected it to be when I first bought them, even though it can still be really annoying. It helps if you have someone else in the area to help  If your girls are more skittish they probably won't even try to jump, though. That seems to be more of a "curiosity" thing once they get braver

Since I started working with my rats. I switched to a sort of walk-in closet/storage area that is impossible to escape. It's more relaxing for me when we have long free range times since I know they can't go anywhere they shouldn't, but they still have to be close to me the whole time. And that way I don't have to constantly monitor them and can sort of check my phone or whatever while they are exploring, in between efforts to pick them up and play with them!


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