# Breeding odd eye rats



## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I've been looking at "breeders" near to me and I see a lot of them breeding to get odd eye color rats. Also, one seems to really be trying to get a line of BEW. I thought odd eyes and BEWs were considered "high white," sorta unhealthy to try and breed to get that quality. Am I wrong? I haven't done much research about this topic. I kind of assumed they were byb, but I guess Debbie the rat lady adopted a rat from them. She also recommended them to someone else. So I thought maybe I am wrong. Or maybe Debbie just doesn't care. Haha. She did get a super cute rat from them...


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## december333 (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm curious too. theres a rattery a few hours away that has BEW DUMBO REX babies. they are totes adorbs!!! <3


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Aren't they?? The odd eye are cute too. But I was always concerned with their health :/


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## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

Agh, BEW are the cutest things. Unfortunately in the breeding world, the cutest animals seem to have the most health problems. It's a shame we can't always breed based on temperament, health, AND markings. It's always "pick two" haha.


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## Lita (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't know about BEW but I also remember seeing somethings about Oddeye being related to high white and an increased chance of megacolon. I donno, they sound a little suspicious to me. Quick search basically said you can't plan for odd eye as it's a random thing that isn't understood genetically. I personally would be wary.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Odd eyes does occur when a blaze or facial marking crosses or comes close to one eye, affecting the pigment. These would be considered high whites (though here in the UK we dont have the same issues with high whites and megacolon). Black eyed whites are useually from a marked white rat selected for less and less colour, so more and more white, so could be high whites. They also have a genetically linked tendency for audi generated epilepsy, which has led to them being removed from the showable varieties here in the UK. Both are pretty but have health concerns, this matters more to some than others. To be honest though there are a lot of breeds which can also have health issues which are commonly bred and people dont realise, like american blue, beige and fawn. Most of these varieties can be improved by good selective breeding for health, however BEW hasnt shown any improvement with good breeding over here, hence why its no longer showable.


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

I stay clear. I think high white markings are adorable (as are BEWs) but I would hate to think I supported some potentially unethical breeding practices in getting those pretty colours or markings. At the end of the day, if you feel comfortable with what the breeding is doing and feel okay about financing their practices, then go ahead. So if you genuinely believe their lines are megacolon free, their rats live long lives and have minimal health issues (and they can back that up with extensive background of their lines) then I think it is okay. However I have yet to find someone who can prove all of this and still chooses to breed for those HW markings.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Okay, I'll stay away from it. You all supported my thoughts. Debbie got her rat from there and then recommended them. So I thought maybe they are a good breeder, and I just don't know enough about breeding to judge. I don't really want to support dangerous breeding, despite how cute the litter critters are.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I mean...there are high white breeders that are trying to weed out the megacolon problem (it appears they've succeeded in the UK). I'd contact them and see what kind of answers you can get, ask to see their records, etc. Maybe they actually know what they're doing....maybe lol. I know we like to be highly skeptical here, but there are a few people out there doing it right.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I fear I don't know enough to ask about it! Haha but you do have a good point. I have a link to the Facebook, I haven't seen a website for them. Which was kind of a flag for me as well. I could probably pm the link, i am not sure how I'd feel about publicly posting it. I don't want them (if they are a member on here) to feel like I am publicly shaming them. Haha I'm not. Just getting advice and learning.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

Facebook is probably a smarter way to advertise these days unfortunately. I'm one of the very rare people who don't have an account lol. Facebook lets people actively be a part of your business through that social network, so I wouldn't exactly let that be a deterrent for you. You may even find people there willing to talk about their experiences with the breeder. I mean, if the page has like 2 followers...then you should be skeptical  Besides that, most of the breeder websites I've visited are frustrating to say the least. They're not well made and hardly ever kept up to date because it's a lot harder to do than just posting a picture of a rat and updating your status that you've got new rats available. I've contemplated using it here to help me re-home some of my rescues and babies, I just never have taken the time to set it up since I don't usually have any trouble finding homes for them.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There is an "ethical" high eye white breeder that guarantees her rats about an hour and a half from the feeder bin where I got Amelia. She was huge and literally show quality. And her brother who was also in the feeder bin was a lightning blaze high white... I'm guessing they were the survivors of a batch gone bad... There were also wet nurse high whites that turned up at that pet shop....

I certainly can't prove that the 'ethical breeder' was dumping her reject batches and old breeders at this pet shop, but it seems either plausible or even likely. I'd say an hour and a half is about as far as I would travel to dump rats I didn't want associated with my rattery, and I likely couldn't just put them down either... And yes the babies were pretty certain to get adopted, I mean high whites stand out in a feeder bin like diamonds, so it wasn't necessarily murder... as to the poor girls that became wet nurses... those were a shame, the store wouldn't sell them.

But if Amelia was any indication, folks just instantly fell in love with her where ever we went. I could easily build a rattery around high white rats that looked like her and count on practically unlimited demand.... I could move a dozen a day at a flea market, everyone instantly loved them... they don't look like rats.

As to the health issues, mostly when high whites get over 8 weeks old their risk of megacolon is pretty negligible. But to be honest, as much as we loved Amelia... you sort of have to stretch the definition of ethical to be a high white rat breeder. If you are going to breed american high whites, you are going to have to deal with the losses and most likely have to have a place to dump your culls before they go south....










Full grown Amelia was nearly a foot long and nearly a pound and a half. She was a knock out any rat owner would be proud of. She died of a large but slow growing single mammary tumor at over two years old. Her eyes were black ruby and her fur was similar to rex, but harder... We missed getting her as a pup but adopted her at 7 months old when the person who beat us out didn't want her anymore... She failed out of shoulder rat training but was a wonderful loving indoor pet and friend, she took great care of Fuzzy Rat when she became old and sick and we were lucky to have her. Aside from the mammary tumor she was never sicker than the rest of us... Both Amelia and Fuzzy Rat caught the cross over flu with the rest of the family and we all got better together.

American high whites make for great pets and friends, I'd wait until they are at least 6-8 weeks old and the dangers of megacolon are behind them before I adopted one... As to whether you would define those that breed high whites as ethical or not... that's up to you. We all have to make our own moral judgments, I adopted Amelia second hand when she was being neglected, and Fuzzy Rat hand picked her... no moral decision required on my part. For me and Amelia and Fuzzy Rat, it was the right thing to do.

Should anyone buy high whites... it's a personal call.... They are beautiful rats, but some have to pay a high price for those that grow up to be super stars.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I don't have a Facebook either. The person I got the girls from sent me the link to them. I guess I'm just old school about the Facebook thing. Haha


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## PawsandClaws (Jul 22, 2014)

Also gotchea, you are not alone. I feel weirdly about businesses without a site. Sometimes I feel it is a silly thing to discredit somebody for but... It's how I feel.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

After reading about the member on here who had all those deformed babies from the odd eye rat, I kind of fear the odd eyes and BEW. I judge the people who breed them instantly. Hahha it's bad! How can I judge something I know nothing about. It's why I came here. I don't plan to adopt a rat from them right now, I was just looking more for the incase one day I want to.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

You want to import Essex over there, its stunning, has a lot of the looks of a high white but none of the problems. Heres a girl from one of our litters, my lad Kazoo was dad to

















We also have roans which are similar as babies but fade as they age and standard blazed berkshires (called badgers) which also seem to be problem free, though i havent met many of them or there breeders.

We still do get some megacolon over here but the main problem area, chinchillas, were taken on by one of the most experienced breeders over here and she spent a lot of time on them. They've also stayed clear of petshops, i think in part because the original breeder has been so careful with who gets rats from her lines. Plus roans are far easier to breed and get hold of and look very pretty as kittens, just tend to end up mostly white


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

I want it! Haha golly, maybe I will import my next rats from you. Is that possible or safe? I know it would cost a ton.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

gotchea said:


> I want it! Haha golly, maybe I will import my next rats from you. Is that possible or safe? I know it would cost a ton.


I was about to ask that same thing. I loooooooove blazed rats, but I learned the hard way that I shouldn't get them from anyone around here


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

kksrats said:


> I was about to ask that same thing. I loooooooove blazed rats, but I learned the hard way that I shouldn't get them from anyone around here


 what happened? I hope you don't mind me asking.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I found the guy's ad on cl and the babies were adorable. When I got to his house, I was horrified, dogs everywhere, filth, and the rats were kept under his bed in shoebox sized bins with a mix of males and females of all ages. I should have left, but I couldn't leave them all. I picked two girls (my dumb mistake) after interrogating him about genetic health which he told me was perfect (again, my mistake for believing him). The girls ended up being pregnant and both had litters that 1/4 of died from megacolon. I might have saved myself the trauma if I'd picked males, but I was just so overwhelmed by the whole situation that I didn't think about possible pregnancy.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Ah that is awful... Poor babies! It is hard to leave a situation like that. I probably would have picked out some ratties too. It's not their fault they are born into awful conditions. At least they were able to live out their life with you


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Isamurat, do you have experience breeding the odd eyes?


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I actually sent both of them home with female pairs of their pups to people who I made certain had no interest in breeding (they went to families with kids who were stoked about adopting mom and babies ). As much as I grew to love them, I just couldn't keep them around since I keep intact males. An accidental pregnancy in one of them would have killed me and it's unfair to those little rat pups. It literally kept me awake at night until I made the decision to rehome them.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

That makes sense. I think that is responsible. Must have been hard to do!


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

It was extremely difficult; they were possibly the friendliest girls I've ever had which was pretty amazing considering where they came from. I enjoyed my 3 months with them and still keep in contact with the families who adopted them to make sure they're doing well. The kids absolutely adore them, so that makes me feel better about my decision


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## LuvDaRats (May 26, 2013)

Im assuming that the OP is in the US since Debbie the Rat Lady was mentioned but if not, then this may not be completely relevant to the OP's general question/concerns since they have different things going on over seas versus what we see here in the US. To answer the risk portion of the question, one really needs to understand some of the more complex understandings of markings genetics and a little history. There is still believed to be two main types of white marking genes (though even this is still hotly under debate to some degree as well as the term 'high white'), a recessive based one that gives us the 'safer' high whites more like lightening blazes, variegated, dalmatian and BEWs and then there is the dominant high whites that give us the cap-stripes, wedge blazes, odd eyes, basically what used to be called "American Huskies". These are two different modes of inheritances and levels of risks associated- High whites that are recessive based tend to be somewhat safer and not produce megacolon, the life threatening genetic disease of the colon (and GI systems basically) while the dominant ones are the riskiest. Obviously with any amount of white marking there is an inherit risk of MC due to the very nature that white markings form during fetal development. These 'huskies' first really started appearing in the 90s, were all the rage and very soon the associated MC problems quickly arose. Supposedly some breeders felt the variety was too pretty or important enough to not try to work through the problems and have insistently tried to breed safer dominant high white lines. It is still under debate on an ethical basis and any solid proof but supposedly some breeders have managed to get past MC prone individuals within such a line and safely breed them on. However, there is still the reported problem that anytime these individuals/lines are ever crossed with other white marked lines like recessive high whites that MC immediately pops up. and mixing the two types of high whites and this has never been able to be countered though some still try. Mostly these days though you can spot these riskier dominant high white individuals in pet stores, BYBs and feeder bins (where maybe lifespan is not considered or able to be part of the data since they are 'fed off' early). Overseas though supposedly they have not had MC problems with their high whites until they started shipping in US high whites. Supposedly for decades even the diligent studs/ratteries over seas had 'bred out' the MC from their original high whites. Now whether this is true or not is a questions for someone who has been around before me and over seas. On the hand of recessive high whites, these have successfully been bred in-line by many breeders for quite awhile now and it is possible to get some nice healthy MC free individuals/lines these days. However, oddeye is a sure sign of dominant high white genetics, this is not debated, and anyone claiming to have both potentially either dangerously mixing their dominant/recessive marked lines, have no clue what the heck they are doing or breeding or just don't care. I would be weary of any breeder with this claim or with anything having odd eyes in the pedigree/litter/lines/breeding individuals in a rattery/breeding colony. Hope this helps, without getting too much into a ton of genetics and digging up a lot of past history.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

Thank you! That was so helpful, without being confusing. Haha. I wonder why Debbie would recommend a breeder that breeds odd eye rats. But I suppose I would have to ask her myself.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

With high whites it's a bit of luck of the draw. She may have adopted a perfectly healthy rat and just assumed (or been told) that the rest were perfect too. Though someone such as Debbie should have the sense to know better, perhaps the claims are valid. You never know unfortunately :/


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

gotchea said:


> Isamurat, do you have experience breeding the odd eyes?


i dont, but i have met a number from different breeders. In theory we could see it in our lines if we got a blazed essex with the blaze overlapping the eye but we habe a lot more head spotted essex than blazed essex (theres not a clear way to breed for one or the other yet, made harder by essex being leathal dominant, so you dont breed 2 essexes together, its always one essex to a standard rat or you loose some of the babies).

LusDaRats - I can confirm as far as reasonbly possible that essex doesnt suffer from megacolon (at least here in the uk), we've had quite a number of generations and litters now and not had a megacolon baby. Saying that essex is definitly different to a high white, the marking does more than just give them blazes, it also fades the top coat and gives graduation down the side to a pale/white belly. I dont breed for roan and dont plan to so dont know the variety as well but there are an awful lot arond here and 've not heard of roans with megacolon (we actually get very few cases in the uk releatively). I've met a number of blazed berkshires (you get a few with broad blazes but most are lightning style or head spots) over here that are closer to a more traditional "high white" type gene, theres not tonnes of them around though and i dont know enough breeders well to know if they see much megacolon. Chinchilla types were the ones with the major issue in the early days of the variety, but Ann Storey and a few others have worked hard and now they are pretty much sound. Again the marking gene involved here is more complicated than the US High white as it does a lot more.

We actually did our first export from the last litter my friend at Lovecraft had, but to be fair that was to sweden (a lot closer than the UK) and to a good friend of Lisa's, not to mention very expensive and a minor nightmare to organise, i dont think we could bring ourselves to export to anyone we didnt know well. There have been a few exports and imports from the UK to US and vice versa, normally they are several breeders clubbing together to be able to afford it, and ideally use pet couriers as the stuff you have to do to fly animals, even to europe, is a nightmare. Also UK to US quarentine is long and often prohibitive. I still think importing some UK essex and Roan (husky) might be worthwhile for the US fancy, essex in particualr is quite striking and i prefer it to just normal high whites anyway (i am biased lol).


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## LuvDaRats (May 26, 2013)

Isamu- Fortunately the Essex, as far as I know and has been pretty commonly thought for awhile, is not the same genes involved in the HW "American Huskies" so you wouldn't expect to see MC there anyways generally. What we now don't know though is what genes are really linked to being the direct causal of MC and this is still hotly debated here in the US. There are a few schools of thought on this but the main two is that MC is caused by another gene in tandem with the spotting genes (non H locus) or that the marking/spotting genes actually IS the MC gene, often referred to as SOX10. Moral of this story is that a breeder should be very familiar with markings genetics and know your lines well before breeding them. If not, stay out of the pool. Its an interesting thought though that if one was to take the chances and really work through a line's MC prone issues that technically you could probably create a MC free line. I personally am not in favor of breeding potentially genetically unsound animals just for the sake of trying to create a pretty pet for someone but that's my choice, I can't say anything for other breeders. Ive also had personal MC horror stories that I don' want to go through again or make someone else go through it either but that's me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When you live with a high white long enough and have other rats, you notice the whole rat is just 'wrong'... it's proportions are off, it's hair texture is off and it's colors just aren't right... Amelia's white was actually light blue, and her dark coat was brown in daylight but always showed as black in photos.

Whatever the gene or gene combo is that creates high whites is, it's way more fundamental than just a color morph. Some folks claim it's hard to spot a high white... (and I've actually seen one without any blazes...it almost looked silver grey and tiger striped) but the best way to recognize one is when the whole rat just looks wrong... It's hard to explain.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Just a reminder to everyone that the discussion of intentional breeding is not allowed on this forum, as per the forum rules.

A few posts have gone past the "hypothetical genetics" type stuff that we usually let slip past, so just keep this in mind.

http://www.ratforum.com/showthread....-Rules-READ-BEFORE-POSTING-Updated-12-04-2012


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