# Another owner with three pregnant does!



## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

So, I have a similar issue to Strawberry in that my three 11 week old does are likely to be pregnant. I bought them after I were told they were boys, to keep my recently bereaved adult rat company and he loved them! Now I know why... 

So, they're only young, and we're now on day 23 since the first day they were introduced (they were together for a week), and no sign of babies yet. They don't have big bellies either. But their nipples are visible, on one of them especially. So I'm not entirely sure if they are pregnant or not, but they are separated from each other just in case. Oh, they are also not nesting yet either, quite the opposite - as soon as I put bedding in their houses, they throw it out again. Pregnant, or not, or impossible to tell?

I'm worried because I spoke to a breeder in my area and she says that there is no way I'll cope with three litters at the same time - I'm not sure why she said that. I am under no illusion that it will be a doddle and that I've got my work cut out for me, but she was adamant that I wouldn't cope and that I should send my girls to a rescue, which is out of the question as I adore these little tykes. I'll do everything I can to give them the best lives possible, both mums and babies. 

I plan to keep some of the babies. I was going to put some boys with my adult male (he's nearly 20 months) but the breeder I spoke to said he won't like them and they will drive him crazy in his old age - is this correct? I don't really want him to stay on his own because he'll be lonely, but she said that's better for him. He does get a lot of attention from me but still... that's not the same as having someone to snuggle up to.

I was also going to put a couple of girls in with my girls - is this a good or bad idea? I'm worried that even though they will be about 8 weeks old by then that the other mums will not like them because they aren't their babies.

Sorry for rambling but as you can see I'm in need of some help


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I think you had better pop this breeder on the nose and walk away. Lots of opinions but most of it is wrong. 

So technically you are on Day 16 of possible pregnancy right? (since theywere removed fromy your boy's fertile presence).

Do you have a digital scale? That IS the best way to determine pregnancy, how far along and if there are any issues with the pregnancy.

Here are examples of 2 of my girls (Lilith was 8 weeks when the poor thing gave birth and Bronny came to me at 3 months old)

Bronwen’s Weight Gain (3-4 months old) 
Aug. 11 – 267 g 
Aug. 14 – 279 g	(8 g gain) 
Aug. 15 – 289 g (10 g gain)
Aug. 16 – 302 g	(13 g gain)	
Aug. 17 – 319 g	(17 g gain)	
Aug. 18 – 329 g	(10 g gain)
Aug. 19 – 346 g	(17 g gain)
Aug. 20 – 354 g	(8 g gain)	
Aug. 21 – 364 g (birth or 13 pups) (10 g gain)
Sept. 14 – 278 g

Lilith's weight gain so you can see what we are looking for...she was so tiny (I can give you pics of her during her pregnancy)

Aug 4 - 145 g
Aug 5 - 154 g (+9)
Aug 6 - n/a
Aug 7 - n/a
Aug 8 - 174 g (+ 20 over 3 days)
Aug 9 - 171 g (-3, there is often a stall or even dip)
Aug 10 - 189 g (+18)
Aug 11 - 212 g (+23, I thought she had hit maximum density)
Aug 12 - 217 g (+5)
Aug 13 - 231 g (+14, no she managed to keep packing it on)
Aug 14 - 241 g (+10)
Birth of 8 baby boys

total gain in 10 days was 96 grams

Then there's signs of problems...weights going up and down, weight plateauing at end of pregnancy and then dropping daily indicating the mom is reabsorbing her pups (natural thing).

Sage gained a TON of weight, and then gave birth to 2 babies (only lost 20 g), one dead and the other died that night.

So as you can tell a digital scale really is vital.

Its a bit early to be separating the girls, if they aren't showing bellies. I don't use houses anymore with my pregnant rescue does, you have a better chance at seeing if there are any problems, and there's no housesto get bumped onto little eepers pinning them down. I use fleece, or carefresh, or even just white paper towels as bedding for my Mat cages. 

The baby boys won't be able to go in with your adult boy right away, they will need to stay with mom til 5 weeks of age, then separated from the females. They will need to be a bit bigger and stronger before you start intro's with your older boy. But if he's a nice boy it should be just fine, and he probably will liven up from having little friends 

Girls can stay with mom forever.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks for that, I will attempt to find a decent scale. Although getting these little terrors to stay still might be challenging, they're very lively!

I know that the smallest one, Bailey, was teeny, only 113g when I took her to the vet (that was the last day they were with Lemmy). Hanna was 132g and Jayme was 144g.

The only thing I'm really scared about is one of my girls not making it through.

With regards to the dates... I was advised to separate them (except for play time) on the 18th day after they were first introduced - that was 2nd July so day 18 would be 20th July (that's the date I separated them). I don't know if I've got that right though, any advice?


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Actually with your adult male rat, that's why its recommended for older males to always make sure that the younger rat has a buddy, so those two will play together and the older guy will be left alone a little bit more. Though I do have to admit, it is funny to see a tiny rat pin down a much bigger rat. My little Storm when he was around 3 to 4 weeks old (we got him and Soda from a pet store so he was very young) would chase around Charles who was a year old at the time and they would have a blast playing together. Then again it took less then 3 days for them to be introduced and living together with no issues, so it does depend on the rat.
If Any of your females have problems such as a baby stuck in the birth canal or staying in labor for too long, take her to a vet, they can help you either get the baby out or give you antibiotics for when she reabsorbs the babies that are left, or if things are really bad due an E-spay.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Use a small gift box or plastic tupperware container on top of your scale. Tare the weight to 0 grams, then add the girl..try to prevent her hoppign out and say "staaaay" while doing it...if they stay still, change your tone to soft and encouraging "good girl" Eventually the good/smart rats figure it out and often freeze for you while you weigh them.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

LightningWolf said:


> Actually with your adult male rat, that's why its recommended for older males to always make sure that the younger rat has a buddy, so those two will play together and the older guy will be left alone a little bit more. Though I do have to admit, it is funny to see a tiny rat pin down a much bigger rat. My little Storm when he was around 3 to 4 weeks old (we got him and Soda from a pet store so he was very young) would chase around Charles who was a year old at the time and they would have a blast playing together. Then again it took less then 3 days for them to be introduced and living together with no issues, so it does depend on the rat.
> If Any of your females have problems such as a baby stuck in the birth canal or staying in labor for too long, take her to a vet, they can help you either get the baby out or give you antibiotics for when she reabsorbs the babies that are left, or if things are really bad due an E-spay.


Lemmy is a lovely friendly boy so I don't anticipate there being any issues with introductions. I would wait until the babies were about 8-10 weeks old before even attempting that anyway 

How would I know if the girls have been in labour too long or have a baby stuck? Is that something that happens often? Bit scary. They each have a house at the moment so I can't really see them, I think tonight I'll do as lilspaz68 says above and make a pile of bedding for them to sleep on/in. It's so hot that I doubt they will mind.





lilspaz68 said:


> Use a small gift box or plastic tupperware container on top of your scale. Tare the weight to 0 grams, then add the girl..try to prevent her hoppign out and say "staaaay" while doing it...if they stay still, change your tone to soft and encouraging "good girl" Eventually the good/smart rats figure it out and often freeze for you while you weigh them.


That's a good idea, thanks 

I meant to ask you - you said above that girls can stay with Mom forever, but what about having two girls from whichever mum has them living with all three mums? Would there be any issue with one of the mums being all like " you're not my baby" and fighting?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

They should be fine if you introduce them carefully to the other moms


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

lilspaz68 said:


> OK let's clarifiy. *Are you separating all 3 moms before birth so they can have their litters alone?if so, do you mean keeping 2 babies with the 3 adult moms after they have been weaned and then intro'd back WITH their mom to the other 2?


This  sorry I wasn't clear


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Imaginary Evil said:


> This  sorry I wasn't clear


I edited after I read back, and realized I was being redundant. They should be fine with introductions.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

It has now been 25 days since the last day they were with my male rat. No babies! Am I in the clear?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

No bigger bellies. no blood, no owwie stretches or rats looking unwell? If so, you are clear


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Woohoo!  Congratulations to IE's girls!


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Sounds like you are clear, Though I would still wait another day or two, some females out there like to be late. (average gestation is 23 to 24 days). if after 27 to 30 days they still haven't had babies, its safe to say they never got pregnant, this is assuming that they have gained weight in the time they were with the male.


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## Maiden (Mar 9, 2012)

Lilspaz I like your first post because I was gonna say the same thing. 

Don't trust every breeder. Breeding rats is a lot like growing grass, all you need is the dirt. All you need to do is put them together. This doesn't mean the person knows what they are doing, it just means they keep churning out growing babies.

Real responsible breeding is much more difficult.


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