# Confronted Petco Manager about mistreatment of rats



## Changophant (Mar 30, 2008)

Today I went to Staples to get some office supplies. I told my daughter (nine) she could go next door to petco and look at the rats, etc while I shopped.

She came back crying her eyes out. Some lady had bought a rat for her snake in front of my daughter. They had treated the rat like a piece of trash. 

Well, I took a deep breath and went to petco. I saw the manager and said "Hi, do you have kittens for sale" He said "yes". I said "great I need five kittens to feed to my Rotwieller". He ofcourse said that wouldnt be possible and I said well you guys sell animals for food right? Oh well its different because wild snakes naturally eat rats blah blah....I said what do you you think wild dogs eat "dog food? He agreed with me and I followed up requesting a comment/ complaint form.

So anyway I have posted before to get others involved here to help let people know "hey we dont like this".

And all that happens is my thread gets locked because some die hard starts discussing how it is okay to feed live rats to snakes. 

If you think it is ok , fine I dont give a sh!t. For those that want to try to stop it please fill out a customer comment/complaint online or in person to your local pet store that sells these wonderful animals as "live food".

Years ago it was legal to have dog fights for entertainment and gambling.....what's the problem? Dogs are going to fight.... it's natural....but people stood up and said something and something was done and now there are laws to stop barbaric treatment of animals....

People have to say something for there to be change ....join me if you want.. I am not tying to discuss anything, I am asking for help from fellow rat fans. If you support rats as live food please dont post here, go start your own thread somewhere else. Thankyou

Changophant


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## jay12345 (Aug 21, 2010)

ive never heard of petco is it in the uk i would glady fill out a form, cant you report them to thge rspca


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## sarah19 (Jul 18, 2010)

jay12345 said:


> ive never heard of petco is it in the uk i would glady fill out a form, cant you report them to thge rspca


 no we have pets at home lol


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

You're RIGHT! Ignore millions of years of naturally-occurring predation in favor of a high-horse approach that will do anything at all because Petco already makes a ton of money doing what it's doing so no one will care. While we're at it, let's stop feeding rabbits carrots. Carrots are so adorable! They're alive!


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## Spazmonkey1565 (Sep 6, 2010)

Thats was a bit of an over reaction silent robert. What i think he is trying to say. Is they should treat their animals better not stop sellin them as food.


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

Spazmonkey1565 said:


> Thats was a bit of an over reaction silent robert. What i think he is trying to say. Is they should treat their animals better not stop sellin them as food.


But then they are still food, and you specified the following: "I am not tying to discuss anything, I am asking for help from fellow rat fans. If you support rats as live food please dont post here, go start your own thread somewhere else."

inb4House of the Scorpion


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

If i ever go to a petco (never do) and see a feeder tank, im gonna smash it and let the rats run free.


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

EddricksMommy101 said:


> If i ever go to a petco (never do) and see a feeder tank, im gonna smash it and let the rats run free.


I may not agree with that, but it's at least a better method than complaints.


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

It is sad when they show and treat the animal that way right in front of a young person  They should at last treat it with respect. But the sad reality is there is always going to be feeder bins in stores as long as there is reptile owners  And people buying them and thinking they are "saving them" but only to realize that they opened up a spot for two more rats to take that one rat they bought. This cycle goes on and on.

The least they can do is when a person goes for feeder for the reptile is have already humanly put to sleep feeds for the reptile, but with this it would cost too much for the stores to do, that is why they sell them live, cheaper and easier for them. Even then some places and stores have this but the reptile owners still would like to buy "live prey" 

We do not have Petco here but we have the evil Pet smart  And for me i do not shop in any pet stores or go in them. I wish to not support what they do even buying something not rat related, any money spent in a pet store helps them. I buy all my items from a feed store ( richie feed and seed) And for huts and such i go to the dollar store  and for wheels a used site that other people sell items.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

I just want to say that NOT ALL PetSmarts are evil...Actually that's far from true. I have a second interview at a Petsmart and before I even applied I did a lot of research on how they take care of their small animals and since they have a vet hospital on site in the store they all get clean bills of health before being put up for sale and they are handled properly and only sold as pets in same sex pairs.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

Stupid laptop.....

Petco on the other hand still amazes me with how horrible they can treat their small animals no matter where they are located...Petco has always had a problem.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

PetCo: Where the buttholes go.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

SilentRobert23 said:


> You're RIGHT! Ignore millions of years of naturally-occurring predation in favor of a high-horse approach that will do anything at all because Petco already makes a ton of money doing what it's doing so no one will care. While we're at it, let's stop feeding rabbits carrots. Carrots are so adorable! They're alive!


I have asked you like 3 times to keep it civil!
Jeez, do you really enjoy making other members angry? This is your last warning.
people have a right to their opinions. As long as they are not stated in an immature fashion.


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

Petsmart gets all there small pets from rainbow exotics an evil place that they help support. 

I also think that is the same place Pecto buys from.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Petsmart is still a petstore, and still gets from mills like any other petstore.
Although I do have to agree they give much better care then any other petstore I have seen. I have seen hammocks, 12 inch wheels, huts, aspen, and lab blocks (kaytee but at least it is an effort). And all separated genders.
I have never seen them demand same sex pairs, but it's better then some places.
I still don't support animal buying from any petstore.
My Green Anole is from Petsmart, and that's the last pet I am ever getting from a pet store.


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

Kiko said:


> Petsmart is still a petstore, and still gets from mills like any other petstore.
> Although I do have to agree they give much better care then any other petstore I have seen. I have seen hammocks, 12 inch wheels, huts, aspen, and lab blocks (kaytee but at least it is an effort). And all separated genders.
> I have never seen them demand same sex pairs, but it's better then some places.
> I still don't support animal buying from any petstore.
> My Green Anole is from Petsmart, and that's the last pet I am ever getting from a pet store.


That is true when i did go in there way back they had no wheels for the rats only this plastic stair like thing and i told them they should add a wheel and the next time i went they had a wheel. 

And it is nice of them to have them in same sex pairs, but i wonder before they get there they are not in same sex pairs.

I know they try but in the end to them its a sale. When i was there (when i did go) someone wanted a rat to buy and asked what cage and so on that person ended up buying a hamster cage for the poor rat and they approved the cage and all.

Edited: i am not sure if you can view this page without login but worth a try http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2113&hilit=rat+mills

That link from another forum shows where most rodents come from before going to a pt store.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

The specific store I'm trying to get a job at says their rats arrive in sex seperated groups and go straight into the vet. Also if someone asks to view a rat if there are any up for FREE ADOPTION they mention those first and try to get the person to view them instead.


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## TamSmith (Mar 1, 2010)

PEG said:


> The specific store I'm trying to get a job at says their rats arrive in sex seperated groups and go straight into the vet. Also if someone asks to view a rat if there are any up for FREE ADOPTION they mention those first and try to get the person to view them instead.


That sounds better than the stores around here. They don't mention the ones in the back at all. They leave them to die. One of my girls came from the back after I fought with the maneger for 2 weeks. I only knew they had her because my friend who works there tipped me off. The poor little girl came to me with the WORST URI I have ever seen and while she is healthy now, her growth has been stunted because the stupid vets there put her on the wrong antibiotics for her age. 

I don't care how nice a store is to the animals, I don't think buying from a pet store is acceptable. The animals come from evil places and "saving" one only leads to it being replaced by 3 more. Supply and demand. 

OP, while I don't think harassing one employee is going to do anything helpful, I probably would have done the same thing if my child had come to me crying like that. I do think it is a wonderful idea to fill out a complaint card and I also think it's a good idea to contact all the pet stores in your area and let them know that you (and everyone you know) will not be shopping at that store until they stop selling live animals.


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## sarah19 (Jul 18, 2010)

SilentRobert23 said:


> You're RIGHT! Ignore millions of years of naturally-occurring predation in favor of a high-horse approach that will do anything at all because Petco already makes a ton of money doing what it's doing so no one will care. While we're at it, let's stop feeding rabbits carrots. Carrots are so adorable! They're alive!


 actually carrots are bad for rabbits i no i was shocked aswell


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## lashes (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm not American, we don't have Petco here in Canada. I bought my rats from Petland and my friend works there and she has assured me many of times how strict they are about where they get their animals from. They're very strict about puppy mills especially. It seems that in the last few years, in my city at least, a lot of pet shops have been closed down and there aren't very many left. I don't know if it's because they're cracking down on animal cruelty and standards of puppy mills, but there has been a serious decrease in pet shops here.


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## blenderpie (Sep 10, 2009)

I agree that it is horrible that rats are being sold as food in front of your daughter. However, snakes need to eat. And whether they are sold alive or dead, rats are still going to die to feed reptiles. If not rats, what do you propose that they eat?

Now, if you were arguing against the treatment of these animals as far as the conditions they are living in or the quality of their food I would be behind you 100%. But on the sole fact that you are upset that they are being sold for food (which also upsets me) I can't complain. If that was the case I should also protest the meat that's going into my dogs' food for they were also loving and intelligent beings. As much as I empathize with your cause, you are going to get no where. At best, they will keep the feeders in a back room separate from the fancy rats they sell and require snake owners to buy rats from somewhere that no one can see how they are kept, which is probably worse.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

I hate how this is a get-nowhere-no-matter-how-hard-you-try thing!


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

EddricksMommy101 said:


> I hate how this is a get-nowhere-no-matter-how-hard-you-try thing!


Of course it is. The Western world has two fundamental problems related to this subject.

1) Capitalism, and
2) A sense of ownership.

Stores will continue to not care about the health of the pets they keep because it is in their favor, for reasons of profit, to give them minimal care. Less resources and labor needed = less costs. Lower costs means a higher net profit. At the same time, people want pets, and breeders have long waiting lists, while rescues frequently have "damaged" pets because of that whole "being rescued" thing. Until humans, as a whole, decide that they really cannot own pets, or that capitalism shafts the little guy, mistreatment of animals will persist.

Write your congressman.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

You should become president, Robert.
Make it illegal


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

EddricksMommy101 said:


> You should become president, Robert.
> Make it illegal


I can't; I'm 16.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I also wanted to mention that our Petsmart here in Kelowna says all that stuff too. They quarantine, get their animals vet checked and say they are very careful where they get them from.

Yet the same store has mixed accidental sexes (I picked out a female from their all male stock not a few days ago) Gee, you think their 'vet' would be able to sex them? I also inquired how old they are, she said 5 months... these babies were under 5 weeks old! It was quite funny and all she said was ''ooo thats good to know'' So they can't be all that too careful where they get them from either. Since I've been approached by pet smart... they were actually interested in making me their full time breeder. They were willing to ''give the animals better care, bigger cages, better food'' so they KNOW their stupid tanks are too small and that they are feeding them the lowest quality cheapest food available. To be fair, none of them looked sick at the first glance... but they were ALL terrified and tiny. 

Also I seen an ad on our castanet for feeders, so I contacted them about the care of their animals and they replied they are the best in town, they even stock all the local pet stores. So honestly I think Petsmart trains their staff to say those things but there is not actually an ounce of truth in it.

As an slightly related matter, someone who was adopting one of my dogs puppies was telling me she worked at Petsmart and she was planning to feed the dog Authority bagged food, which the store told her was THE best dog food available (Surprise surprise... there own brand!). Yet when I researched the brand, it was very poor quality + full of grains. Yuck, I HATE Petsmart..... I cringe every time I see their ads on TV about how much they care for their animals and their customers animals. BLERRRRGGHH!!


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

Me too, but thats the only place i can get Mazuri from...

D:


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Do you have a Buckerfields near you? They tend to be cheaper as well for the Mazuri.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Why dont you just order Harlan Teklad? it's so much cheaper then Mazuri.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

And a much better quality. I used to feed Mazuri and Mazuri F6... my rats did not thrive on it, did not have thick full coats and didn't grow to their full size. I had to feed a good quality grain mix along side it for it to be ''complete''
I have had great results with Harlan 12% and Living World Extrusion.


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

> I'm not American, we don't have Petco here in Canada. I bought my rats from Petland and my friend works there and she has assured me many of times how strict they are about where they get their animals from. They're very strict about puppy mills especially. It seems that in the last few years, in my city at least, a lot of pet shops have been closed down and there aren't very many left. I don't know if it's because they're cracking down on animal cruelty and standards of puppy mills, but there has been a serious decrease in pet shops here.


I Don't know if this applies to all Petlands, but I know that Petland is notorious for puppy mills. When I was 15 I used to volunteer at the one in Red Deer, AB (I wanted to work there once I turned 16), and their puppies were not in the best shape. I remember inquiring about where they got their puppies from, (we just got new puppies in, and she was doing the paper work for it, maybe a shipping/receiving receipt?) and the manager said they couldn't release that information to me, and would shove her papers into her cabinet and locked it away from any prying eyes. Also I can recall many times when other staff were handling the hamsters and mice in the back and they would jump from their hands onto the floor. The hamster?mouse would be what looked like having a seizure, and I'd ask if it was ok, and they would always just reply "Oh ya it's fine, don't worry about it", pick it off the floor and stuff it back in it's cage. 
The one here in Vernon is just as careless with their animals. A staff member was showing some kids a puppy, and as it wriggled in her arms, and she said fine, and just dropped it to the floor.




> I also wanted to mention that our Petsmart here in Kelowna says all that stuff too. They quarantine, get their animals vet checked and say they are very careful where they get them from.
> 
> Yet the same store has mixed accidental sexes (I picked out a female from their all male stock not a few days ago) Gee, you think their 'vet' would be able to sex them? I also inquired how old they are, she said 5 months... these babies were under 5 weeks old! It was quite funny and all she said was ''ooo thats good to know'' So they can't be all that too careful where they get them from either. Since I've been approached by pet smart... they were actually interested in making me their full time breeder. They were willing to ''give the animals better care, bigger cages, better food'' so they KNOW their stupid tanks are too small and that they are feeding them the lowest quality cheapest food available. To be fair, none of them looked sick at the first glance... but they were ALL terrified and tiny.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Our Petsmart is full of fools. I'll go in there time to time to buy kitty litter (I know, still supporting pet stores) and of course I pass the tanks of rats, mice, hamsters, etc. I'm always able to spot a girl amongst the males, and every time I point it out, they tell me that 'his' testicles haven't descended, yet all of her brothers are well packaged. And they look so unbelievably sick! Laying there panting, barely moving. And it's not just the rats. Only allowing their chinchilla the room of two of those tiny tanks? It's so bad there.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

My grandma says i cant order Harland because :Internet scams:

and my mom agrees.
Blach.

But, if i could, i so would. And the boys actually are looking ten times better than when i first got them,
Eds fur is so shiny.



but its probably from all the kisses.

LOL


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

See I had great results with Mazuri and my boys loved it, but it was far too high protein once they got older so I switched to 2018 Harlan.

Unfortunately, the problem in this thread spreads far out past just Petco. There are tons of other chain stores and tons of other even small, local stores that likely do far worse with their animals than most Petcos would. You can't humanly send a complaint letter to every single one of these stores, and even if you do, what do they care? For every person that they lose business to, there will be two more uneducated kids and parents wanting a cute pet or something to feed to their snake. It will continue as long as it's allowed. I think your resources would be better spent writing formal complaints about NA's policy on live feeding... Because that would stop the problem altogether.

This is a video I took in one of the local pet stores here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiWMI6t8nZM


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## oatsnyogurt (Apr 5, 2010)

Jaguar said:


> See I had great results with Mazuri and my boys loved it, but it was far too high protein once they got older so I switched to 2018 Harlan.
> 
> Unfortunately, the problem in this thread spreads far out past just Petco. There are tons of other chain stores and tons of other even small, local stores that likely do far worse with their animals than most Petcos would. You can't humanly send a complaint letter to every single one of these stores, and even if you do, what do they care? For every person that they lose business to, there will be two more uneducated kids and parents wanting a cute pet or something to feed to their snake. It will continue as long as it's allowed. I think your resources would be better spent writing formal complaints about NA's policy on live feeding... Because that would stop the problem altogether.
> 
> ...


Is your video, the rats look so much better taken care of than at my pet-store. At least its clean, seed food is better than no food, and they have toys, the rats look active, but the pine bedding is awful. Let me tell you about the rats at my pet store, there are 5+ stuffed into one ten gallon tank. There is nothing in the tank but pine bedding (which is soaked in urine), and an empty water bottle. The rats themselves are in horrible shape they all have mange and they are all in a pile in the corner on the tank panting. It is truely horrible what conditions they put their animals in!


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## lilangel (Mar 26, 2009)

Jaguar said:


> See I had great results with Mazuri and my boys loved it, but it was far too high protein once they got older so I switched to 2018 Harlan.
> 
> Unfortunately, the problem in this thread spreads far out past just Petco. There are tons of other chain stores and tons of other even small, local stores that likely do far worse with their animals than most Petcos would. You can't humanly send a complaint letter to every single one of these stores, and even if you do, what do they care? For every person that they lose business to, there will be two more uneducated kids and parents wanting a cute pet or something to feed to their snake. It will continue as long as it's allowed. I think your resources would be better spent writing formal complaints about NA's policy on live feeding... Because that would stop the problem altogether.
> 
> ...


Wow i should do one from the petsmart here there is like nothing in the cages!

And my rats do well also on mazuri its 16% protein also.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Jaguar said:


> OatsnYogurt said:
> 
> 
> > See I had great results with Mazuri and my boys loved it, but it was far too high protein once they got older so I switched to 2018 Harlan.
> ...


Oh they're mixed genders too, so I can guarantee all of those females are pregnant :/ That same day a couple was looking into buying a hamster. They picked out a girl and the store worker was quite honest in saying "Yeah since we keep the boys and girls together she's probably pregnant but we'll take the babies back" it was just awful. They refuse to separate them because they consider themselves breeders. 

I've seen their "breeding room" in the back, basically it's a bunch of dirty hamster cages stuffed in the back along with all the old rats they get left with that are too old/sickly/etc. to sell. I basically rescued one of my old males from there, Sebastian. He had lice, smelled absolutely TERRIBLE, was sneezing, broken nails, etc. he was scared quite litterally sh*tless when I picked him up, and was timid and cage aggressive with me from then on, to the point where I had to rehome him because he was beating the crap out of my other rats and I couldn't keep him separate. They refused to put him out front to sell because he was "too old" (just over a year in my guesses) they didn't want him to breed to their females because he was a black berkshire and "no one wants solid black rats" lol. They haven't caught on to the fact that breeding their siamese to anything other than siamese will probably result in black babies yet. 

They quite often have a nursing mom with her couple day old babies just thrown in the tank with all the other rats, males too, so I wouldn't be surprised if the nursing mom was pregnant at the same time. You can't tell in the video but they were all sneezing/rasping terribly, and the water in that little thing in the bottom right was disgusting, like sewage water. They pick them up by the tails and just overall treat them like crap. :-\ The people are huge jerks. It's a family business and they are the type of people that refuse to take suggestions from anyone else. 

That's where I got Miles, and although he is the sweetest tempered rat I've ever had, he's small, frail, sickly, and just overall in poor condition. Just goes to show what that kind of treatment does in the long run :-\ Oh yeah, they also sold me an african fuzzy rat and told me that it could be put in with normal rats too. So I took him back and they gave me a little hooded boy that was too young to even be sold that started having seizures and passed at about 4 months old.

Here's some more pictures of the store.

http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,21639.msg


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## akismarton (Sep 10, 2010)

as a current petsmart employee (I only stock the store, and help work the sales floor so no pet-care stories yet from me) this quote: 

"As an slightly related matter, someone who was adopting one of my dogs puppies was telling me she worked at Petsmart and she was planning to feed the dog Authority bagged food, which the store told her was THE best dog food available (Surprise surprise... there own brand!). "

All depends on the store. Our current store has tons of old bags and current bags of authority in the back because we do not suggest it to owners of pets. These huge chain stores largely depend on the managers i'm sure, as we definitely have given up sales to make sure people don't kill or mis-care for their animals. Heck, just a couple years ago i was wanting to get two tiger oscars (type of fish) for a 20 g tank and the lady working just flat out told me it wouldn't work and would not sell me them. 

In summary: chain stores largely depend on the managers! some suck, others actually care about the animals we are selling(such as the one im at )


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

Hmmph.

I think our petsmart actually cares about their animals too, because Ed was fine... Until the boys came, but i think they got sick because the boys came by rat train with 34 other rats.

So..
Yeah,

and all the rats at my petsmart are on Carefresh Ultra,
eating Mazuri rat blocks and a seed mix combined. *Saw them feed the rats one day.
And have plastic igloos, fresh water, and toys.

So... idk what to think anymore


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't think people are understanding.
it's not about the huts, bedding, and hammocks and junk. It's the support of a problem. it's not just rats, it's Reptiles, all other small mammals, birds, puppies. 

You would not walk into some smelly sleazy corner store and buy a plasma TV right? You want to go to a reputable place.

Im sure Ed is healthy, many pet store rats are healthy, unfortunately for every healthy rat, there are 3 sick ones.


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## EdieBird (Apr 9, 2010)

Not sure how on-topic this is, but yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a man who does wild bird rehabilitation. He works with large birds of prey that have been injured, trying to get them to a point where they can fly free and hunt on their own again. These birds need live prey to keep their instincts sharp, so they can catch their food when they are well again. He's actually having trouble finding a source for non-tame feeder rats for his birds locally. (wild birds should hunt "wild" rats, he says) He sees healthy rats as vital to these birds' well-being, physically and mentally. I do see where it's different from feeding live rats to a snake in a tank. These birds have HUGE pens so they can fly a bit, trees, shrubs, rocks, the works, and the rats have places to escape to. (at one point there was a colony of rats living in one of the owl enclosures) He provides food in the bird pens for the rats, along with "easy" meals of raw meat for the birds. I don't know how to feel about the ethics here...yes, the rats are going to die, but he does his best to provide for them while tending to his larger goal of saving those large birds.

He also told me about one time that a tiny little rabbit kicked the living daylights out of a horned owl...can't help but laugh at that image.


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## hshelton (Feb 23, 2010)

At our wildlife rescue we don't feed live prey to anything. We have HUGE pythons and many other snakes that all eat frozen mice. We don't rehab birds of prey though. But I do agree that to be able to release those kinds of birds they absolutely MUST be able to kill their own prey. If not they will die when released from starvation because there won't be someone there to make sure they eat on their own. Like right now I'm in the process of release two wrens that I've raised for the past 3 weeks. I buy them live meal worms and they kill them along with other bugs they find out in the yard during the day. Its just something that has to be done for wild animals whether anyone believes in it or not. However, people shouldn't be release larges snakes and other reptile so I think its more acceptable for them to be fed frozen rats but I do see where the owners come from with buying live prey...its more natural. I love snakes but I wouldn't be able to feed them so I admire them from afar.


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## Memoryguy (Aug 10, 2010)

Jaguar, they let you take pictures at that store? I'd wager the owner would boot your butt out the store upon noticing. lol


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## TamSmith (Mar 1, 2010)

Kiko said:


> I don't think people are understanding.
> it's not about the huts, bedding, and hammocks and junk. It's the support of a problem. it's not just rats, it's Reptiles, all other small mammals, birds, puppies.
> 
> You would not walk into some smelly sleazy corner store and buy a plasma TV right? You want to go to a reputable place.
> ...


Plus a rat that came from petsmart and is healthy currently will almost certainly be unhealthy later. One of my girls just had a tumor removed and the vet was shocked at how young she is. She doesn't have good genes just like any animals from any store. 

Plus it's not just about the health of the animals. It's about where they come from. Those mills are horrible. Just thinking about them makes me want to throw up. It's nothing but constant torture for the animals until they get to the store. I won't buy from a petstore because I don't want to give them money to keep doing what they are doing. I think the mills are a bigger problem than the stores themselves.


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## hshelton (Feb 23, 2010)

The mills are a bigger problem than petstores. A lot of petstores are keeping their animals better than they used to because people are complaining about the conditions animals are kept in. They also are trying to convince people that the animals did not come from mills. For example, my friend bought a havanese puppy from a petland here. They showed her the dogs "pedigree" and that she had a champion in her bloodline. The next day the dogs eyes were swollen shut and she had a huge "allergic reaction" to a vaccine that she wasn't even given. Yet this friend was dumb enought to believe what the pet stores vet had to say.


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## amethyst (Sep 11, 2010)

In the UK it's illegal to feed live animals to snakes if I remember rightly. I was shocked when I moved to the US that large, "family" pet stores openly sell "feeder rats" for live feeding to snakes. I also had an awful conversation with a friend of my husband about how he fed live rabbits to his pet snake by throwing them together in the bathtub... we were standing in my front room with my 6 bunnies right next to us!! How he could have thought I _wouldn't _tell him how sick he was and throw him out of the house I will NEVER know...


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

amethyst said:


> In the UK it's illegal to feed live animals to snakes if I remember rightly. I was shocked when I moved to the US that large, "family" pet stores openly sell "feeder rats" for live feeding to snakes. I also had an awful conversation with a friend of my husband about how he fed live rabbits to his pet snake by throwing them together in the bathtub... we were standing in my front room with my 6 bunnies right next to us!! How he could have thought I _wouldn't _tell him how sick he was and throw him out of the house I will NEVER know...


I'm not familiar with snake care. Is the alternative dead feeding?


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

You can get the rats pre-killed. Although I'm not exactly sure what the 'humane' way to do it is... every way I have been presented with so far has been just as cruel as feeding live. (for exmaple, gasing the rats makes them feel sick, disorientated and makes their mouth and nose burn before they die. In the freezer they get hypothermia and their symstem slowly shut down.) Its not a solution to the cruelty.. because I'd guess the mills would just raise the rats themselves and then stick them in the freezer... how snake owners are supost to feel like thats the less cruel option I don't know. 

Is there even a humane way to pre-kill the rats? Because I do understand snakes have to eat. But also the rats need to have a quality of life and a respectful death.


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> You can get the rats pre-killed. Although I'm not exactly sure what the 'humane' way to do it is... every way I have been presented with so far has been just as cruel as feeding live. (for exmaple, gasing the rats makes them feel sick, disorientated and makes their mouth and nose burn before they die. In the freezer they get hypothermia and their symstem slowly shut down.) Its not a solution to the cruelty.. because I'd guess the mills would just raise the rats themselves and then stick them in the freezer... how snake owners are supost to feel like thats the less cruel option I don't know.
> 
> Is there even a humane way to pre-kill the rats? Because I do understand snakes have to eat. But also the rats need to have a quality of life and a respectful death.


They would still be dying, though. Death is not "respectful". How do you get snakes to eat dead things? I know it's possible with bullfrogs by dangling meat in front of them; are snakes the same?

I vote in favor of synthetic food.


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## laughingrats (Apr 21, 2010)

> They would still be dying, though. Death is not "respectful"


Death can be respectful if it's not in the hands of someone trying to play God.


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## Memoryguy (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't know. I'm starting to think that feeding the snakes directly is more humane than sticking them in the freezer. How snakes feed on rats is a design of God. I'd imagine its a quicker death than subjecting them to the freezing cold. 

As long the whole spectacle is not taken as a sport, I think we have to respect what snake ownersvhave to say too.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Freeze them to death?
Thats not how it is done, they are humanly killed, and then frozen.


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## Memoryguy (Aug 10, 2010)

Kiko said:


> Freeze them to death?
> Thats not how it is done, they are humanly killed, and then frozen.


So how are they killed? Gassed?


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I honestly don't know exactly how, I know some distributors of the frozen mice to it differently.

I own my own Ball python myself, she she happily eats frozen thawed mice and is very healthy.
I am getting soon a Red Tailed Boa who will need to eat frozen rats, I won't feed live ever UNLESS my snake is absolutely refusing frozen and would die other wise, in that case I would feed live. But i would have the vet do it. I know I could not bring myself to do that.


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## eddricksmommy101 (Jul 16, 2010)

I could never in my life own a snake whilst having rats.
Never.

But that's just me.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Some people do just stick them right in the freezer and they say they just ''fall asleep.'' I've dealt with several feeder breeders claiming they were humane and doing it right that way. Some people also break their necks or bash them over the head on the side. Can't think of any other techniques off the top of my head. I know they can not be put to sleep because it affects the meat and therefore the snake.

Of course death can be respectful. And I mean more about the way its done. You know not just sticking them in a plastic bag and whacking it on the side of the table. (Which I've seen done before in a video) First someone would have to come up with a humane way to do it.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I wonder if I go to snake forum, I can find a quality provider of humanely killed rodents for my snakes.


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## Memoryguy (Aug 10, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Some people do just stick them right in the freezer and they say they just ''fall asleep.'' I've dealt with several feeder breeders claiming they were humane and doing it right that way. Some people also break their necks or bash them over the head on the side. Can't think of any other techniques off the top of my head. I know they can not be put to sleep because it affects the meat and therefore the snake.
> 
> Of course death can be respectful. And I mean more about the way its done. You know not just sticking them in a plastic bag and whacking it on the side of the table. (Which I've seen done before in a video) First someone would have to come up with a humane way to do it.




Which brings me back to what I was saying before. So instead of freezing or whacking it... how about letting the snake do the job?

I think a snake is way more precise in its kill than having us whacking or bashing it. One lethal bite and squeeze is usually all it takes.

Freezing, bashing, whacking, whatever... that's inhumane.


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## PEG (Aug 19, 2010)

As much as I love my girls *covers their ears* I must agree. I think the most humane way for a rat to die would be completely naturally. A natural death ranges from old age to predatorial attack. It's the way nature intended it. I've heard plenty of cases of mice and rats killing the snake in which they were intended to feed just like in the wild. They still have a chance but just like in the wild most times they don't win. It's the circle of life.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I would personally consider snapping their necks more humane than letting the snake just have them - because its quick and if done right (by a vet or trained professional) the rat won't suffer or be afraid. Theres still room for human error however, and if not done right the rat could suffer immensely. As soon as a rat smells a snake it will tense up and be flighty. In the tank scenario the snake just slowly makes its way towards it and the rat has very little escape. They can also inflict damage on the snake and when the snake does eat them its not quick or nice in the slightest. They are usually either eaten alive or crushed to death. In the wild he would be able to dart in any direction it wants - so saying the odds are the same are not true. Snakes would not eat rats full time in the wild, they would hunt other small animals as well. I know its the 'circle of life' but these are not wild rats, nor are they in the same environment and it COULD be done so they don't have to suffer like that. 

And I'm not a snake owner, but I know if I were I would want to feed healthy (and friendly so easy to handle) rats to the snakes. Rats who are in good condition and have eaten lab blocks, veggies, treats etc and not been kept on pine in filthy cramped conditions. I'd also want them pre-killed so theres no chance of them injuring the snakes or stressing the rats out.


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## Changophant (Mar 30, 2008)

Speaking of "nature" and what is natural. We humans are part of nature and what we do can also be considered natural....from being friends with animals and defending them to building bridges and exploring our surrounding...everything we do is natural is my point.

It is rare but natural for one type of animal to protect another
Dogs defend people for example....so it is also part of nature and natural for us to interfere in what is called "natural"....that is natural too.

Lol I dont want to get all deep or anything but we are part of nature and what we do must be part of nature whether it is wiping out an endangered species or saving a species....

thats just my opinion....

On another note "topic" Maybe calling a store about their treatment of rats may do nothing today...but what about 20 years from now....someone has to get the ball rolling on things that need to be changed...it wont happen right away but someday it may make a difference...but it will definitely not change if we do nothing

I am going to try to stop rats from being abused and hopefully it will make a difference.


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## blenderpie (Sep 10, 2009)

I just have to say that most of the snakes that are sold as pets are constrictors, meaning that they will wrap around their prey and suffocate it rather than some sort of "fatal bite", which would result mostly from a venomous snake (and who would want that as a pet?)

So whether they are shoved in freezers (which, to my knowledge, is how it's done) or the snake taking care of itself, neither are "ideal". However, snakes need to eat and they're going to as long as people own them as well as in the wild. I just feel like this is a lose lose situation and no matter how much we talk about it, we're never going to come to an agreement.

Humans can't even treat their own food humanely. How could we ever expect that we (humans in general, obviously not the readers of this forum) would take care into how the food of a SNAKE is treated? Let alone if that food source is a RAT. All of us have faced the shudder when we tell people what sorts of creatures makes our hearts smile. People are much easily persuaded to get behind the kinder treatment of pigs and cows and chickens. I'm not saying that it will never happen, I just don't see anyone jumping all over the more humane deaths of feeder rats anytime soon, no matter how much we whine about it. We have more of a chance if we educate people how the rats are treated so they can make the choice for themselves rather than arguing with pet store managers. 

P.S. Personally, I'm in favor of the snake doing the killing. It is a healthier and more enriching experience for the snake unless the owner puts the frozen rat on a stick and makes it "dance" to look as if it is alive. A majority of snakes won't eat from a bowl.


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## Elizabethm (Sep 10, 2010)

i used to own 5 ball pythons and i have always loved rats and mice but i could never picture myself feeding a RAT to a snake, but me a mouse was a diferent story. i had a rat also while i had my snakes since i had boughten her for a feeder but when i brought her home i cried because i couldnt do that to her. it was something in her eyes that pleaded with me and she became my best friend. while i had my snakes i didnt feel that connection with mice so to compensate i would buy say 3 *PET* female mice and 1 feeder male mouse which i would let breed. those i kept as pets and once the young got fully grown they were snake food. after my pet mice died i sold my snakes and decided my main goal was to rescue feeder and other rats who needed love. i didnt need snakes because my rats are the loves of my life


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## SilentRobert23 (Aug 16, 2010)

LauraNat said:


> > They would still be dying, though. Death is not "respectful"
> 
> 
> Death can be respectful if it's not in the hands of someone trying to play God.


inb4 pet ownership


I'd like to point out that a common way to euthanize fish is freezing. Technically, they're different from rats, but it's a relatively painless death. The body begins to shut down; you feel sleepy. Then, as you're about to die, you feel warm. Then you die. Certainly more humane for the rat to be taken out that way than gas or constriction. Even so, synthetic food. Just imagine a piece of chemical meat that twitches!


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## leesha (Feb 15, 2010)

I didn't read through all this thread, but as a snake owner I had to step in. I find the argument about it being more "natural" for a snake to kill its own food laughable. There's nothing natural about keeping a snake in a tank, with perfect temperatures, humidity, and feeding schedule, so why would I bother making things more "natural" by feeding my snakes live? My guys don't know the difference, they don't give a flying flip if their food is already dead or not. It's also very dangerous to feed your snake live food. Live rats and mice left alone with a snake can cause a lot of damage. For these reasons I only feed frozen/thawed. 

BTW: Kiko, make sure you do your research before getting a RTB, these guys get fairly big.


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## yunafonfabre (May 31, 2010)

I still doubt it's possible to keep anything much bigger than a corn snake in the house in an enclosure where it could be active and happy ... don't constrictors love to climb?

Guess I'm prejudiced, but I've gotten more affection from *wild* mice than I've ever seen anyone get from a snake. I could never keep a pet (a snake or certain fish) that had to eat other pets to survive.


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## skwidrama3000 (Oct 1, 2010)

My petco in southern california has signs on the rat tanks that says that those rats our pets and they have frozen mice and rats in the back and they try to inform reptile owners the good of frozen rats/mice


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

yunafonfabre said:


> Guess I'm prejudiced, but I've gotten more affection from *wild* mice than I've ever seen anyone get from a snake. I could never keep a pet (a snake or certain fish) that had to eat other pets to survive.


Rats, as omnivores, need to eat other animals too have a healthy balanced diet - so do dogs, cats, fish and most other pets. Most of the commercial rat food contains animal products and by products. We eat other animals everyday, its natural for animals to eat animals. I'm sure the main debate here is about the treatment of these feeder animals, and how they are prepared for the snake - not about making snakes vegetarian.


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## Kherrigan (Oct 9, 2010)

I own both snakes and rats, but living within the UK we feed only frozen rats to our snakes. 

Snakes do need to eat, and they do need to eat rats and mice, but I disagree with feeding anything live. 

It's still a huge issue within America that I really don't understand - especially because a fully-grown rat can do a ridiculous amount of damage to a snake if it decides to fight back! Plus live rats are more expensive, they can potentially carry more disease than a frozen... the cons outweigh the pros tenfold.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

At this point in time, I think the only real reasons for feeding live are. 
Your snake absolutely refuses frozen, or is not captive bred as wild caught snakes don't eat fozen. 
That seems to be it.

It's not just rats people, it's mice, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, bunnies, chickens, actual pigs.

These are all animals fed to snakes of various sizes, it has to happen it's nature. Frozen or not animals die as food for snakes.

I don't consider myself Bias because I own snakes, because I own rats as well.


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## daisylynn1990 (Jul 4, 2010)

I can not take an non-biased point of view on this. I can not say 'Rats are always pets and you can't kill them!' Because we do the same thing to cows and chickens...And some call them pets. POV has a lot to do with this argument.
I can not say it is ok to keep snakes as pets...But then, rats were once wild animals too...So again I am coming off as a hypocrite.
So for now, I think all I'm going to say, if you're going to kill an animal, be humane about it. If you're going to keep an animal as a pet, put your heart into it and treat them right.
Is this fair?


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## rtivy (Jul 16, 2010)

Kherrigan actually most places sell feeder rats for $2 a rat which is cheaper than petsmarts $10 box of two rats. Also they shouldn't have parasites if the breeder isn't mixing them with wild rats. 

yunafonfabre it is possible to give bigger snakes an enclosure it can move around in but you either need it costum made or make it your self.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Petsmart is INSANELY overpriced. I get my frozen rodents from Petland 3$ for a 6. or I get 20-30 of them when I go the Reptile Expo a few times a year.


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## rtivy (Jul 16, 2010)

Kiko said:


> Petsmart is INSANELY overpriced. I get my frozen rodents from Petland 3$ for a 6. or I get 20-30 of them when I go the Reptile Expo a few times a year.


I hate buying anything from petsmart but the only other petstore that I can think of closest to me is an hour away


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## Nagi (Sep 19, 2010)

As I read though the debate here, of feeders, other animals and what is natural I wonder how many people eat meat? I find it ironic how some people will get angry at live food but will eat a burger later. Just a thought.

I had a beautiful snake that I fed frozen mice to, long while ago; as well as a rose hair tarantula that ate those and bugs. There are just choices we make as owners. 

I don't eat meat or by products as it is my choice. My animals eat healthy balanced diets, and I no longer have animals that I have to feed live/frozen foods to, I personally can't do it; but it doesn't mean its wrong.

That being said, I agree that any animal; be it for feeding, pets etc; they have to be treated right regardless of fate. 

Some pet stores are 'evil' but if its all you're accessable to, its all you can do sometimes.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

I also wanted to clarify that feeders can have parasites without coming into contact with wild rats. The majority of pet store beddings are teeming with parasites. Also rats always carry mites... when their immune system is down they can have a sudden outbreak as they don't groom themselves as much.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Perhaps a rat/snake lover someday will start up a Humane supplier of Frozen rodents for snakes to consume.

As a snake owner my choices are limited. I can either feed frozen, or live. Both are apparently inhumane to everyone who asks.
Does anyone have an idea of what the heck we rat loving snake owners should do?
That is real genuine frustration at the situation :'(


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

There are always going to be people who tell you that your evil for feeding rats to snakes, no matter how you do it. Thats just something that comes with the territory of feeding one animal to another - no matter how humane you try to be. But the truth is, you don't really have any humane options right now. Feeding frozen is the best way to go, cause the animal won't have to suffer being eaten by the snake but at the same time the rat suffered everyday whilst it was growing to the size your snake prefers. So someone out there will always find fault with your actions. The people who are raising the animals for food, obviously don't care about their welfare enough to put it over profit, so the whole process is kind of just going round in a loop - the rats being the one drawing the short stick.

I myself have tried to think of a good alternative.. but not really understanding the dietary or even behavioral needs of a snake I can not contribute too much. The snake needs to eat live because.... it needs warm food? or need to see the food moving? 
Do snakes need to eat rats full time? Can they not eat some chicken or other meat product occasionally?


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I am not fully sure.
I think it is more the fact that is LOOKS like an animal. My snake has never stricken at my hands but they are made of flesh obviously.
But it never fails to strike at it's food, because that's it's natural prey I suppose.
The food has to be moving, If i leave if there it will rot, I need to hold it with long tweezers and make it dance around before she notices it and then she strikes. It has to be thawed but not warm, but warm REALLY helps. I sometimes warm it up under a heat lamp first.

I think it really has to be a rodent. :/
if I could feed her chicken or another already killed animal instead believe me I would.


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## leesha (Feb 15, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> I myself have tried to think of a good alternative.. but not really understanding the dietary or even behavioral needs of a snake I can not contribute too much. The snake needs to eat live because.... it needs warm food? or need to see the food moving?
> Do snakes need to eat rats full time? Can they not eat some chicken or other meat product occasionally?


Most snakes need rodents. Snakes _don't_ need to eat live, most switch to f/t without problems. There are a few picky eaters who won't switch, but there are also a lot of stupid owners who refuse to even try.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I know :/
I think a lot of meathead snake owners get enjoyment out of watching the animals get killed honestly.
It's why I NEVER watch Youtube vids that people send me about that stuff.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Wow you tube actually allows videos of snakes eating rats? Thats horrible... I'm going to write them and complain. They should at least be flagged for over 18's.... children can log on and watch these things? 

Leesha, lets say the good snake owners like Kiko... who has a fussy eater... how would one go about getting the snake to eat pre killed?


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

My snake is not a fussy eater, but she used to be.
I got her to fully switch to Frozen by taking her to the vet and had her force fed a mouse and given meds to increase appetite.

it was a last resort because she had not eaten in 3 months and I was getting worried


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## Nagi (Sep 19, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Wow you tube actually allows videos of snakes eating rats?


Yes and yes. You can see snakes eating chicks alive and clucking as they're inside the snake too. Guinea pigs and all sorts of animal maltreatment, for entertainment purposes; as well as living feedings. It doesn't stop there, it goes from snakes, to ferrets, to fish, to all sorts of messed up things. Not saying feeding live or not is, but for me is all just a gross world. People look for it, and regardless if its 18 + that doesn't stop someone from making a fake account or w.e. It's sad, real sad. Complaining, will just be joined by the hundreds of others in frustration; falling on deaf ears. I found a video of people throwing a donkey off a bridge, as well as a video of people shooting a dog for kicks. I do my up most to avoid these videos, but it is also important to know that they are out there.


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## windyhill (Apr 19, 2008)

Everything has to eat, but everything also should be treated with kindness.


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## ema-leigh (Jan 24, 2010)

Not everyone has an account tho, I don't and I still view videos.. I think the least they could do is flag it for over 18's.... thats a more realistic outcome. Sex and violence by law should not be available for minors to watch. Theres always going to be gross stuff on the internet... I have watched a video of someone being hanged and someone having limbs cut off before - but on a popular site like you tube they can and should regulate these things a bit better.


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## PandaBee (May 14, 2010)

i didn't waste my time going through all the pages here, but i did read the first page.

While i don't necessarily like the idea of feeding live animals, i do understand that some people own picky snakes that will not touch prekilled or frozen/thawed. Snakes in the wild don't eat because they just so happened to come across a prekilled/frozen/thawed rat. No....they kill it on their own. law of nature.

I also know that in EVERY petco I have been in over the last two years, which is many by the way, they have posted signs on their rat and mice tanks saying that they DO NOT encourage feeding live, for the safety of the snake and the welfare of the rat/mouse. I think that's an important point that has been overlooked. It's important to understand that while they can discourage feeding live, they can't just ban the sale of their animals for food. it's unrealistic.

people who feed live will find ways around such a ban. they will just go in and not say that they are getting the animals as food. they may just buy their own males and females and overbreed the animals to death, so that they don't have to deal with it at all.

honestly, it's like banning marijuana...you can ban it, but that doesn't mean that people don't find their ways around it. sad truth of life.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh and idk what Petcos all you guys are going to.

but in ALL the petcos I have been to, which is more then 5.

They use the Terms Small, Medium and Large.
You know what those terms are you? You guessed it! SNAKE FOOD. 
Even though they don't sell them FOR snakes, I have often been asked by employees what i'm "feeding" when I am looking at the mice and rats. 
Nothing is stopping anyone from walking into petco or petsmart and buying them for food.
Except maybes Petsmarts outrageous prices for everything in the store.


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## leesha (Feb 15, 2010)

ema-leigh said:


> Wow you tube actually allows videos of snakes eating rats? Thats horrible... I'm going to write them and complain. They should at least be flagged for over 18's.... children can log on and watch these things?
> 
> Leesha, lets say the good snake owners like Kiko... who has a fussy eater... how would one go about getting the snake to eat pre killed?


There are tons of ways. Braining, leaving the snake in the feeding container overnight, dipping the feeder in chicken broth ... There are so many ways to get a problem eater to eat f/t. I'm not trying to demonize snake owners, I'm a snake owner as well. I love my reptiles to death, and understand that some snakes simply won't switch. My problem isn't with the people who can't get their snakes to switch, but with the idiots who won't even try to switch to f/t. I have a problem with the sick people who enjoy watching an animal die ... They're not only being cruel to the rodent, but putting their snake in danger.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Those are some of the methods I tried to get my snake to eat at first 
After braining I got my snake to strike but she was still not getting the animal. Luckly the vet helped.


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## Nagi (Sep 19, 2010)

The internet indeed is a scary place. If I were to say of the human vs human horrors online, we'd be talking forever. 

The dipping into chicken broth and dance the food around used to work best when I had my snake.

I agree, all animals regardless of fate; deserve kindness.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Any and all snakes will eat frozen eventually. I captured a wild gopher snake (she was ill and in a lot of pain) and after a couple of weeks even she would eat thawed food. She began waiting for it when she saw me heating it up in the hot water. The reason people think snakes are picky is because they spoil them- live food's more interesting, and snakes do prefer it. However, they will eat anything if they get hungry. You have to make picky snakes wait a couple of extra days to eat and they WILL eat it if it moves and is warm.


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