# Wanting Info (No Complainers,or PETA)



## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

A few months back I was researching the care of Ball Pythons and I found a popular breeder that had some videos up of their snackes and their rat shed, he showed off his one manx breeder, a healthy doe. I thought nothing of it, I continued my research assuming it was some crazy inbred deformity or that it was artificialy removed (no point complaining the rat was 2 years in '07).

My lack of interest in rats continued, I assumed they were somewhat like fish (goldfish to be precise). I thought they were unpersonable and dirty, a very common assumption that has recently been cleared up. After a classmate came in with her two rats in a tiny cage claiming that they will be bred because other kids wanted some and she didn't have money to neuter her male, it seemed as irresposible as a dog owner breeding for the money or to see 'the miracle of life' and then she startad saying that all rats get tumors no matter what bloodline they come from and that they only live to one year old, I doubted every word. She encouraged everyone to buy feeders from a popular local pet store called Walter's World (a good store, burmt there feeders are treated as just that, feeders).

I did some research and then asked her some questions to test her knknowledge: Can you keep un- altered rats over 5 months together with no breeding, her answer was yes, I then asked her what bedding she used, she answered cedar. I no longer consult with her ignorance.

And so I began looking for ratteries to find out some true information on how rats are supposed to be kept. I wanted to know there diet, how they're cared for, what owners do to entertain them. I had no idea they could be litter trained or that they came in such a wide variety of colors and markings.

I was surprised to find such a high standard of care, such large cages a munimum amount of out of cage time per day, and the dedication a breeder must have to care for so many animals. And the standards are very similar to reputable canine breeders.

And so I've become more interested in rat genetics, mostly color genetics and I'm seeking information from a highly experienced owner or a respectable breeder. I'm curious as to how the manx gene is inherited carried and how it appears, I doubt I'll get an answer to that on , but it's worth a shot.

I'm also interested in capped, masked and bareback rats I always thought that it would be insanely difficult to et the markings just right to be show quality, and have yet to be succesful in finding a breeder that works with any of the above listed markings.

I appreciate any and all reliable and open-minded people willing to give information, wether it be tips on keeping rats or some information genetics.

Thanks for your time, Howler.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

What are your goals? First I would advice you to get well educated on rats as pets and then when you have everything ready (cage, toys, food etc) adopt a pair of social, tame, same sex rats as pets and find out how awesome pets they are.
From your post it sounds like you are skipping some steps.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't have any information on how the manx gene is carried down but there is some online if you look.
I will caution you though that rats need their tail for balance and as a major source of temperature control and are prone to skeletal issues from the deformity. Much of the rat owning community finds breeding manxes to be unethical.

For the markings you liked please also familiarize youself with a condition called mega-colon, this is a good article on it--> http://www.spoiledratten.com/highwhitecont.html

A good place to start is to google 'rat genetics' and the first 4-5 hits all have pretty good basic information.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Manx is a polygenic trait and not easily or predictably passed on. You can breed a manx rat to a "carrier" and be lucky to even get one baby that is manx. The mutation is also responsible for a number of deformities, including hind leg, hip, and spinal deformities. Some clubs have actually banned manx because they believe it to be unethical to breed such animals prone to such deformities and disabilities.

Where markings are concerned, in order to breed show quality markings a breeder must select the best marked individuals to breed to other best marked individuals. Markings are extremely hard to breed to show standard, and as a result you may find many many many non-show quality marked rats. These animals still make wonderful pets. Bareback is essentially a modified version of hooded, and controlled by recessive h-locus markings. Capped and masked can be achieved either by h-locus markings and modifiers, or by dominant spotting (often mislabeled "high white"). The former is safe to breed, as long as megacolon has not been documented in the line and the rats are not crossed with dominant spotting. The latter is more dangerous, with megacolon being a possibility, especially in lines that have not been well tracked or recorded.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

ratjec, well, I guess my only current goal is to learn all I can about rats. What steps am I missing? I'm currently unable to own rats as I have no time to care for them, the majority of my time is spent rehabing my filly, Sophie Anne (ever watch True Blood?), she was diagnosed with Radial Paralysis on February 7th the day after a bad fall. She has made some great progress and if anyone is intersted to know more feel free to contact me.

Sorraia, thank you for the info. Now to research Polygenetic Traits, I know that there is a possibility of deformities when it comes to manx rats, but I believe that there is a way to breed them responsibly and with appropriate health. I've read up a little bit on mega colon, it's an interesting defect.

wheeljack, I do realise that breeding manx rats is generally frowned upon, but I believe that it is possible to breed healthy rats with fewer deformities if any at all. I read that article and another on the same subject earlier today from two links in a seperate post on this site.

I notice now that my post is very sloppy and would like to apologize for that, I am not ignorant of the basic care and treatment of rats, though, my post it seems would say otherwise. I have very little physical experience with rats, but I have and/or currently own the following species: dogs (all sizes), cats, ferrets (little slinkies), parrots, hamsters, and horses. I currently own 1 blind cat (born with deformed eyes that were very small and naturally reobsorbed within a few months), 2 kittens one with slender hips (I warned her about climbing that tree, she fractured her pelvis falling out of it one night and was cage bound for 2 months, everyone is now house bound), 2 dogs, and 2 horses.

Thanks for all of the info so far.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> Sorraia, thank you for the info. Now to research Polygenetic Traits, I know that there is a possibility of deformities when it comes to manx rats, but I believe that there is a way to breed them responsibly and with appropriate health. I've read up a little bit on mega colon, it's an interesting defect.
> 
> wheeljack, I do realise that breeding manx rats is generally frowned upon, but I believe that it is possible to breed healthy rats with fewer deformities if any at all. I read that article and another on the same subject earlier today from two links in a seperate post on this site.


Its really not possible to separate tailessness from the deformities. The genetics that cause tailessness also cause the deformities. The deformities are related directly to the tailessness. In some instances yes, the rat is born without a tail, but otherwise in good health with no deformities. However... there is no way to know if the next time will be the same, or the time after that, or after that... one of these times a rat with horrible deformity may be born. One has to question, is it ethical to take that kind of risk for something aesthetic? In addition... to produce just one manx rat, a breeder may have to breed a dozen litters. One also has to question if it is ethical to produce that many animals for that one single aesthetically pleasing individual? I suppose it can be compared to race horses... how many race horses are produced, and ultimately destroyed, out of desire to produce the next Triple Crown champion? Perhaps those "throw away" animals could be pet-placed, but how many homes can take them? Meanwhile you have hundreds, even thousands, of animals sitting in rescues, or being turned over to shelters, or even being dropped off at pet stores to ultimately become reptile food (unless lucky to be bought into a loving forever home), animal who could potentially find homes if those "throw away" animals were not being produced in the elusive search for manx. Its one thing for a manx to show up in a litter unexpectedly, but its another thing to breed litter after litter after litter in the attempt to purposefully produce manx.

Now all of that said... the desire for manx also has cause for alarm for another reason. Because manx is so elusive, and yet in such high demand, some people are pushed to do unsavory things to these animals. There are, and have been in the past, and will be in the future, people who will actually cut the tails off baby rat in order to make a manx. These individuals of course won't say that's what they do, they will pass the animals off as true manx, at top dollar prices trying to make money off the whims of other people. Knowing this, is it ethical to purposefully try to produce manx, thus encourage such desire, and create a home for such unethical, even cruel, practices?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Sorraia said:


> There are, and have been in the past, and will be in the future, people who will actually cut the tails off baby rat in order to make a manx.


ughhh... seen it. it really is awful. :-[ maybe a link to that one thread on goosemoose would be appropriate to post here.

you're removing an absolutely necessary body part for multiple functions... temperature regulation, balance, spinal development, posture, and so much more... most manx rats actually hop around instead of walk because of their deformities. it's almost equivalent (if not worse) than docking the tail off a dog... for absolutely nothing but aesthetic reason.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

Jaguar said:


> Sorraia said:
> 
> 
> > There are, and have been in the past, and will be in the future, people who will actually cut the tails off baby rat in order to make a manx.
> ...


Yup, I have two rats from a litter of babies that had their tails cut off at birth to pass as manxes. One of them has had continual infections in his tail stub, one reconstructive surgery and is looking at a second. He also had an undescended testicle because of the scar tissue from the miserable docking job and getting him fixed up has been a long and expensive ordeal. I live in Texas where it gets hot. If my AC ever breaks during the summer, these rats are in extreme danger of dying from the heat. 

Rats need a tail, there is zero ethical reason to intentionally breed rats without one (or cut them off).

I have some some grisly pictures of this guy's tail if anyone has a burning desire to see them.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

How pathetic that someone would maim an animal just for the money, and you can work with the manx rats, it is possible to breed healthier animals. It would take a very experienced breeder to walk such a thin line when it comes to aiming for the perfect body type, but I belive that it is possible. And rats are able to regulate temperature through their paws as well, so technically they don't absolutely need their tails, the cobbier body type makes up for the balance problem, plus, I've come across several breeders that keep there rat rooms at a specific temperature to prevent chills or over-heating.

I do realise that there will always be the risk of deformities in manx lines, there will always be risk of deformities in feline manx lines as well, but with consistant, responsible breeding they have been lessoned to the extant that they are nearly non existant in good lines.

And an ethical breeder would never cull animals, that rant made no sense. If it were a responsible breeder working with the manx gene they may not even produce enough for others to buy and all rats would be sold for the ssme price, plus health of the rats would come first not the quantity of one specific type of rat. And it's not all about aesthetics, even if say a breeder puts together two hooded rats and they get 1 hooded from the whole litter they won't cull all of the other rats.

I'm not trying to start up any rediculous arguement and by no means am I condoning the artificial removal of a rats tail, I'm simply stating what I believe to be possible in the future of manx rats. No more silly rants, I was only looking for open minded responses to begin with.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> How pathetic that someone would maim an animal just for the money, and you can work with the manx rats, it is possible to breed healthier animals. It would take a very experienced breeder to walk such a thin line when it comes to aiming for the perfect body type, but I belive that it is possible.


Without personal, hands-on rats experience, what are you relying on to make your assessment? Why do you believe it is possible to "correctly" breed a deformity? 



> And rats are able to regulate temperature through their paws as well, so technically they don't absolutely need their tails, the cobbier body type makes up for the balance problem, plus, I've come across several breeders that keep there rat rooms at a specific temperature to prevent chills or over-heating.


Body heat is lost through surface area. A smaller body is at higher risk of heat exhaustion due to smaller surface area (this is why elephants can walk around in the sun during triple digit heat and a rat or mouse cannot). While rats may lose heat through their paws, those same paws make up a relatively small surface area compared to the tail. The tail is a major heat radiator, allowing the animal to cool off quicker. And keeping rooms at specific temperatures means NOTHING when those units break down for some reason, especially if no one is home to take actions to help slow or prevent the onset of heat stroke. My AC stopped working on a hot summer day last year, and even with fans, extra water, etc I lost a rat (thankfully only one) to heat stroke, and she had her tail.



> I do realise that there will always be the risk of deformities in manx lines, there will always be risk of deformities in feline manx lines as well, but with consistant, responsible breeding they have been lessoned to the extant that they are nearly non existant in good lines.


What are your sources?



> And an ethical breeder would never cull animals, that rant made no sense. If it were a responsible breeder working with the manx gene they may not even produce enough for others to buy and all rats would be sold for the ssme price, plus health of the rats would come first not the quantity of one specific type of rat. And it's not all about aesthetics, even if say a breeder puts together two hooded rats and they get 1 hooded from the whole litter they won't cull all of the other rats.


Actually an ethical breeder SHOULD cull animals. Culling simply means to remove from the breeding program. Not every animal is breeding quality, thus those animals should be culled. Culling can be done in several forms: spaying/neutering, pet placement, or killing. An ethical breeder will NOT kill "unwanted" or pet quality animals, but same breeder CAN cull by pet-placing or spaying/neutering those animals. 

Regardless what price the animals are sold for or their health, if a breeder is breeding specifically for manx, there WILL be excess animals produced in the endeavor. Manx is not something that is easily bred, breeders are considered "lucky" to have manx show up even once, let alone more than once. If manx is the reason a breeder is breeding, they WILL be producing excessive animals.

Breeding for manx IS about aesthetics. There are NO health benefits to manx. Other than appearance, what is the point of breeding manx?

Also a friendly suggestion: You might want to research a little more before jumping into these discussions. Two hooded rats bred together will produce a litter of 100% hooded. The genotype for hooded is h/h, thus h/h x h/h = h/h and nothing else (unless a random mutation were to occur, but those are not something to expect or predict, thus is not even considered a possibility until it actually happens). 



> I'm not trying to start up any rediculous arguement and by no means am I condoning the artificial removal of a rats tail, I'm simply stating what I believe to be possible in the future of manx rats. No more silly rants, I was only looking for open minded responses to begin with.


I'm not sure what "silly rants" you are referring to. I am discussing with you. You are new to rats, doing research, but I have no idea what research you are or have done. I am discussing with you on an issue near and dear to my heart (I am a rat breeder, and my goal is healthier, friendlier animals, intentionally breeding for potentially harmful deformities is a very hot topic to people like me). I also have quite a few years experience under my belt. Not saying I'm always right (I'm human, I make mistakes, mix up my facts, etc), but I also don't appreciate being disregarded (this is how you are making me feel). This is a serious topic. I'd like to know what your sources are that have led you to believe manx can be purposefully bred for in an ethical manner.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Oh yeah one last thing - 

Even if manx can be safely produced 9 out of 10 times, is that 1 rat born severely deformed worth it? 

I personally don't think so. The health and well being of these animals should come before looks. If manx pops up unexpectedly, that's one thing. But to purposefully breed for a deformity, disability, or health issue is on the same level as breeding for production. These are living breathing animals, not toys. While many people are attracted to pretty colors or appearance, most colors are not associated with health concerns or deformities. If these animals are viewed as "toys" to be tinkered with and "molded" just so, stick with inanimate objects.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

There have been ethical breeders trying to get manx, but they ended up stopping because it was impossible to get more than 1 rat per litter if any at all.

Female manx rats need to be x-rayed to see if they can safely give birth through their pelvis, etc, etc. 

This reminds me a lot of the AUS breeder who decided that she could breed out megacolon, but this sadly would be at the cost of an incredible amount of rats potentially dying...is it worth it? I am a rescuer and see how many rats need homes, perfectly wonderful rats...and they don't get a chance, because someone HAD to buy that "pretty rat" in the petstore window, that ends up dying of early or late onset MC. Most of these rats die at home painfully without a humane euthanasia.

I rank trying to breed Manx (all for people's aesthetic appreciation not for anything it will do for the rat) up there with people randomly throwing high white, MC carrying individuals together because "some of the pups may live".


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## ratfan06 (Dec 31, 2010)

Also, the tail is linked to more than just temperature regulation and balance. The taillessness of a manx is in itself a deformity. It's a deformation of the spine. It leads to birthing issues, defecation problems, nerve damage, and other issues directly related to the spine. I don't see how you could breed for the deformity and expect to breed out the deformities that are a direct result of it. I just cannot justify breeding manx rats.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

I was speaking of manx cats, when I spoke of the lessoned deformities (infact I've owned one of them, balance was no problem for her). If it can be done in cats why not rats? I've met manx rats before, but have since lost contact with their owner, they moved around well and had little problem with temperature regulation. 

And anything nowadays is considered a deformity, anything that is different from the norm wether it hinders an animal or not is considerd a deformity. I've been told to put down my blind cat several times because she is said to be deformed, it's very simply ignorance. Because she lives life a little differently from others she is considered something like a demon to many.

I'm saying that breeding a healthier manx is possible. I'm not by any means saying it should be done for profit. 

I've always been told that culling means to kill a worthless animal, often the runt because it is weakest. I hadn't known it wss being used in a ifferent context.

There are always risks when breeding something new. Why would it be so awful to work to breed healthier manx, it's not like they're the 'twisty cats' of the rat world, they can be healthy, loving animals capable of living happy lives. Why is it so bad that I believe this body type can be bred responsibly, not all manx rats are deformed or incapable of moving properly.

What does mc have to do with this? It's a birth defect and has nothing to do with this. And come to think of it neither do race horses, which quite love their jobs and many don't come close to the Triple Crown or the Derby or the Breeders Cup but their careers are still considered succesful and many are still cherished win or lose, many will only see the dark side of racing, but there is a bright side to it.



Sorraia said:


> Now all of that said... the desire for manx also has cause for alarm for another reason. Because manx is so elusive, and yet in such high demand, some people are pushed to do unsavory things to these animals. There are, and have been in the past, and will be in the future, people who will actually cut the tails off baby rat in order to make a manx. These individuals of course won't say that's what they do, they will pass the animals off as true manx, at top dollar prices trying to make money off the whims of other people. Knowing this, is it ethical to purposefully try to produce manx, thus encourage such desire, and create a home for such unethical, even cruel, practices?


With that arguement you could make breeding any animal seem unethical because of the market for them, this is why I stress that an Ethical, Responsible, and Experienced breeder must be the one to work with these genes.

These genes it seemes have only been documented in a bad light and I'd like to see someone with the above listed qualities work with them to see what lies on the otherside.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

The tailless mutation in rats and cats isn't the same.

Those comparisons are legit, because even in best case scenario, some rats will be born deformed in order to get to the "healthy" Manxes, assuming it is possible. People breed high whites because some will be okay and they are pretty, you are talking about doing the same thing.

No one is saying that they make bad pets, just that they are unethical to purposefully breed for. I would rescue one, and frankly consider it a special needs case, but would not buy a purposefully bred one.

As for deformations, it is one because it is a detrimental characteristic. To my knowledge, dumbo ears are not, so they are not a deformity. Manx rats, however have problems even when they are "perfectly" bred, as they can't regulate temperature or balance as well. As for Manx cats balancing fine, Im not sure how I feel about Manx cats, but they don't rely on their tails as much seeing as they don't climb!!

As for corkscrew kitties, there have been such rats, and it is caused by the tal gene. I remember a breeder purposefully breeding them, but obviously they can happen accidentally too.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> ratjec, well, I guess my only current goal is to learn all I can about rats. What steps am I missing?


The steps you are missing is to actually first own a couple of rats to get to know them as pets, work and play with them etc. It is incredible what you will discover. They are very unique pets.
Then search for an ethical breeder who can help educate you further on genetics and ethics.
I think it is admirable of you that you are not jumping into breeding.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> I was speaking of manx cats, when I spoke of the lessoned deformities (infact I've owned one of them, balance was no problem for her). If it can be done in cats why not rats? I've met manx rats before, but have since lost contact with their owner, they moved around well and had little problem with temperature regulation.


I am not as familiar with cat genetics as rat genetics, however there is a possibility the genes controlling manx in cats is different from that in rats. Also, the two species are inherently different. Rats are built differently than cats, and thus even if the genetics are similar, there is the possibility of different outcomes. In addition, rats are a lot smaller, there is a lot less room for even a "minor" deformity before it will cause major problems. Finally, how many manx cats and rats have you actually met? How many breeders of manx cats and rats do you know and have had lengthy, in depth conversations with? Is it possible those animals you have known were the exception, rather than the rule? Is it possible the seriously deformed animals have simply been euthanized rather than keeping them alive to suffer, and thus the only animals you see are those who are "healthy", giving the misleading impression that it is possible to "safely" breed such a deformity? 



> And anything nowadays is considered a deformity, anything that is different from the norm wether it hinders an animal or not is considerd a deformity. I've been told to put down my blind cat several times because she is said to be deformed, it's very simply ignorance. Because she lives life a little differently from others she is considered something like a demon to many.


No, not everything is considered a "deformity". In the sense I am speaking, a deformity is something that disables and disfigures the animal, leading to a lower quality of life. An animal who cannot walk normally, is in danger over over heating, cannot defacate on its own, or is missing hind legs or has a twisted spine due to the effects of taillessness is deformed. An animal that is blind, for whatever reason, is not deformed, though may be disabled. Blindness can be due to physical issues (maybe the eyes are missing or not developed properly), in which case it is a deformity, or it can be due to illness or injury. In either case there is a major difference between your cat and what you are advocating: Your cat was not purposefully bred to be blind. You are advocating purposefully breeding a potentially life-threatened and quality of life reducing deformity. 

Something acquired without intent (such as blindness) is fundamentally different from purposefully breeding for a deformity. On top of that, an animal that is blind can still live a normal, healthy, high quality life, with some modifications by the owner. An animal who is born unable to defacate, unable to walk, missing hind legs, with a twisted spine, etc is not going to live the same quality of life of a normal animal. Yes, there may be some tailless animals born perfectly normal without these more extreme expressions of the variety, BUT are those extreme expressions worth it for something such as looks? 



> I'm saying that breeding a healthier manx is possible. I'm not by any means saying it should be done for profit.


How do you know it can be accomplished? What is your source for this idea, besides your experience with a handful of healthy animals.



> There are always risks when breeding something new. Why would it be so awful to work to breed healthier manx, it's not like they're the 'twisty cats' of the rat world, they can be healthy, loving animals capable of living happy lives. Why is it so bad that I believe this body type can be bred responsibly, not all manx rats are deformed or incapable of moving properly.


Because you are not basing your assumption off facts, but ideals based on your experience with a very limited number of animals. You cannot look at a handful of healthy animals, and ignore the dozens of unhealthy animals produced and killed in pursuit of this variety. 

And manx is NOT new. It has been around for a long time. It has long been known as a deformity. It is not a matter of breeding out health issues that just happen to be in the line, it is that the trait itself IS unhealthy. 



> What does mc have to do with this? It's a birth defect and has nothing to do with this. And come to think of it neither do race horses, which quite love their jobs and many don't come close to the Triple Crown or the Derby or the Breeders Cup but their careers are still considered succesful and many are still cherished win or lose, many will only see the dark side of racing, but there is a bright side to it.


Megacolon and the production of race horses both have very much to do with this conversation.

You are advocating breeding a deformity that can have very serious health consequences. Likewise many people breed rats who will produce megacolon babies in the pursuit of fun white markings. Two varieties with serious health consequences connected to them.

Racehorses are produced in high quantities for the pursuit of that one Triple Crown winner. Likewise rats would have to be produced in high quantities for the pursuit of that one manx. I'm not talking about abuse or mistreatment, I am simply talking about the pursuit of that one unique individual, and the necessity of producing hundreds to achieve that one.



> Sorraia said:
> 
> 
> > Now all of that said... the desire for manx also has cause for alarm for another reason. Because manx is so elusive, and yet in such high demand, some people are pushed to do unsavory things to these animals. There are, and have been in the past, and will be in the future, people who will actually cut the tails off baby rat in order to make a manx. These individuals of course won't say that's what they do, they will pass the animals off as true manx, at top dollar prices trying to make money off the whims of other people. Knowing this, is it ethical to purposefully try to produce manx, thus encourage such desire, and create a home for such unethical, even cruel, practices?
> ...


HOWEVER - no other variety can be sold for the price people are willing to pay for manx, and no other variety can be created in as cruel a manner as manx.

Sure, you can dye a white rat blue, but no one is willing to pay $50 for one blue rat when they can go to a pet store and buy it for $10 or $20. However, manx is so rare and so hard to come by, people ARE willing to pay $50 for it. You cannot find manx in the pet shop, like you can nearly any color, coat variety, or ear set. Money hungry villains know people are willing to pay these kinds of prices, and know they can relatively inexpensively produce a litter of rats, cut off their tails, and sell them for that price. If it costs $50 to raise a litter, but you make $50 per baby, you make money. The ignorant public doesn't know how difficult it is to obtain manx, and unless they HAVE put in the time and effort to do the research (many do not), they will buy these animals not knowing any better.

No other variety is in as high demand as manx, no other variety can be sold for as high a price as manx, and no other variety can be faked in the same way manx can. Yes, you can breed another variety in inhumane conditions, but you cannot make them something they are not the way you can manx. The cruelty behind manx is multiplied by the fact that not only can you raise these animals in inhumane conditions, but you can cut their tails off as well and pass them off as something they are not.



> These genes it seemes have only been documented in a bad light and I'd like to see someone with the above listed qualities work with them to see what lies on the otherside.


Good breeders HAVE worked with manx, and time and time again given up because it cannot be produced regularly, predictably, or easily. Those good breeders who have worked with manx have kept the babies themselves, because they simply don't produce enough to give to other people. All of those good breeders have stopped working with manx because they simply cannot produce enough good quality, healthy manx to even keep the line going. 

I think what you fail to understand is that manx IS inherently unhealthy. Yes, there are healthy individuals, but those are the lucky ones. There are many others who are put to sleep because they are so deformed they cannot live even a comfortable life. It is not a matter of "breeding out" the issues, the issues ARE the manx.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

http://www.afrma.org/taillesstrbl.htm

http://www.afrma.org/breedtaillessrat.htm

http://www.afrma.org/taillessrats.htm

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/tailless.htm

http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatTails.htm#Tailless

http://www.theratsplace.com/manx-rats-rats-without-tails/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11539022

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7296383

http://www.nfrs.org/banned.html

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/2/65.extract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aja.1000480109/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.1090091005/abstract

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/4/123.extract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10628779


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Actually manx cats do climb, just as often as any other cat (some times better than other tailled cats). Some rats will be deformed in any beginning bloodline as well, because you don't know what genes are in them yet, but that isn't discouraged.

And about those excesive animals produced from a breeder aiming for a specific trait, no matter what you breed for, no matter what species your breeding there will be an exces and those animals are either kept as pets or breeders or sold/adopted out as pets or breeders.

ratjec, I wish I could, but it wouldn't be right for me to acquire animals I don't have the time or funds to care for. My main priority is my filly, Sophie Anne, who had a bad all in February, she was diagnosed with Radial Paralysis and at that point could feel nothing and had no idea her leg even existed, and she refused to use it. 

Sorraia, why don't we just quit this alright. You aren't going to change my mind by telling me all fo this I'd need to personally see what this gene can do and because I've only seen the healthy unique creatures it can bring that's what I'm sticking to. That is why I believe that this gene can produce happy, healthy animals, because those are the only rats I've seen and handled. What I'd need to believe what you're telling me is cold hard evidence, an irresponsible breeder or even a responsible breeder that has bred these rats and gained only what you say they will gain, deformed, sickly animals.

The closest I may have come to seeing adeformity in a rat was an irresponsible breeders ratlet whicch they claimed was "over groomed" he was a three legged mel with an akward body shap. I can't find her page again though I have looked.

Now that she has more muscle and more feeling I have to help her shift her center of balance back to both front legs instead of just one of them, not to mention she hasn't had a trim in so long that it worries me (her good front leg has adapted to being the main leg and has muscled up alot, not to mention her Wide hoof which is supposed to be well rounded). 

With a few sessions of electroacupuncture on the first, second, and fifth of April the muscle has returned a little bit more and is holding steady, but is still not where it needs to be and she may have a hairline fracuture which could take many more months to heal.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Ugh, I didn't say that Manx can't climb, I said that cats dont climb as much as rats...

Also, you asked for info, many experienced people, even breeders!! Responded...yet you are rejecting everything, and ignoring the important points raised.

It isn't new, did you miss that too??

You don't need to personally breed Manx to find out if it is safe or ethical.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you. My current source of internet happens to be a palm pre which is relatively diffiult to do much of any research on.

I hadn't realised that they were that well documented or that the information was so readily available, I guess it would be very unethical if there were to be healthy rats as just an exception as to what normally occurs. I'm sorry for being so stubborn.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

smesyna said:


> Ugh, I didn't say that Manx can't climb, I said that cats dont climb as much as rats...
> 
> Also, you asked for info, many experienced people, even breeders!! Responded...yet you are rejecting everything, and ignoring the important points raised.
> 
> ...


You've apparently never owned the lunetics that are cats, which love to climb as often as allowed more frequently at night and early morning. And you truly would be easy to fool if you were to be easily won over with words instead of cold hard proof.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> smesyna said:
> 
> 
> > Ugh, I didn't say that Manx can't climb, I said that cats dont climb as much as rats...
> ...


Err, wrong. I've always had cats. They do not climb the same way that rats do, or with the same frequency. You have obviously never owned rats 

Proof was offered. If our proof wasn't good enough, what was the point of asking people? You would have just researched it your **** self if you thought our experiences were meaningless.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Sorraia, that fourth link explains why a breeder I contacted can't get her female to take. I bet she'd be pissed if I forwarded it. Should I?

Although, it also mentions that she had been breeding Tailless rats for 10 years without many problems, that kinda suggests that Tailles rats have and can be bred with relative safety and responsibly.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

smesyna said:


> HowlsOfAngels said:
> 
> 
> > smesyna said:
> ...


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> Some rats will be deformed in any beginning bloodline as well, because you don't know what genes are in them yet, but that isn't discouraged.


You REALLY need to do more research.

In the beginning of a bloodline, rats will NOT be deformed. You may see some health issues, but those are not deformities. I have worked with numerous bloodlines over the years, and started my own bloodlines several times (NOTE: Starting a bloodline does NOT necessarily mean using "unknowns" such as pet store rats), and not one single time have I had a deformed rat in a litter. Not once. After breeding rats for 10 years, that's not luck.



> And about those excesive animals produced from a breeder aiming for a specific trait, no matter what you breed for, no matter what species your breeding there will be an exces and those animals are either kept as pets or breeders or sold/adopted out as pets or breeders.


Not true. Each and every single animal I produce is desired. They may only be pets, but they ARE the goal of each litter. Doesn't matter what color they are, how they look, their markings (or lack of), etc. They are desired. As long as my litters are consistently getting healthier, consistently remain as friendly and affectionate as possible, and preferably become longer lived, I am meeting my goal.

With intentionally breeding of manx, there ARE going to be excessive litters. If you breed two manx together, you may not even get a single manx in that litter. Those animals were not the intent of that breeding, thus are excessive. 

I have said it before and will say it again. It is one thing to have manx unintentionally pop up in a litter. It is another matter entire to purposefully breed for a trait that cannot and never will be consistently produced.



> Sorraia, why don't we just quit this alright. You aren't going to change my mind by telling me all fo this I'd need to personally see what this gene can do and because I've only seen the healthy unique creatures it can bring that's what I'm sticking to. That is why I believe that this gene can produce happy, healthy animals, because those are the only rats I've seen and handled. What I'd need to believe what you're telling me is cold hard evidence, an irresponsible breeder or even a responsible breeder that has bred these rats and gained only what you say they will gain, deformed, sickly animals.


As long as someone is advocating something that can result in the intentional suffering of the animals I love, and be detrimental to the species as a whole, I will not stop.

You have a fundamental flaw in your logic: You have only met a handful of these animals and are using them as your rule. This is the same logic someone uses when saying "I've only met a handful of white men (or fill in whatever descriptor), and they were all hateful, vindictive white supremecist freaks (or fill in whatever traits), thus all white men are that way."



> The closest I may have come to seeing adeformity in a rat was an irresponsible breeders ratlet whicch they claimed was "over groomed" he was a three legged mel with an akward body shap. I can't find her page again though I have looked.


That is exactly the kind of thing that can come out of intentional tailless breeding.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

The AFRMA articles are a poor source IMO. They advocate a lot of unethical things. And, the people that are actively breeding Manx are likely to say that lol. I also doubt she necropsied them to see if there were problems from it not visible on the outside-labs have found a lot of problems upon necropsy. It is all irrelevant anyway, there is proof that even perfectly formed Manx rats cannot properly regulate temperature and cannot balance as well. The inherent problems are bad enough, and the unpredictable spinal, and pelvic abnormalities that can occur are tragic.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels said:


> Although, it also mentions that she had been breeding Tailless rats for 10 years without many problems, that kinda suggests that Tailles rats have and can be bred with relative safety and responsibly.


Did you not read exactly what was written? Her line is NOT without problems, she HAS had 3 animals with urinary problems. That is a small number true, HOWEVER you are not thinking critically about the information provided. Details that are missing in those few sentences: Is she intentionally breeding for manx, or does she just so happen to have manx show up? How many tailless rats has she actually had in those 10 years of breeding? (Perhaps those 3 rats were out of 5 tailless rats produced.) What other breeders has she worked with, what have they experienced? Where did her lines originally come from? Does she inbreed, linebreed, or outcross constantly? What other health issues is she seeing in her rats (directly or indirectly related to taillessness)? Is she still breeding, and if not who is working with her lines now, if anyone? 

One problem with your proposition is regardless whether or not it can be safely bred, NO ethical, responsible breeder is intentionally working with manx. Thus, all we have are lineages which may or may not have problems, and have few, incomplete, or no records to back up any claims to health behind them. I do not know one single breeder I would consider ethical and responsible who would want to touch those lines with a 10 foot pole.

And finally, that's ONE page out of how many? You still choose to ignore the majority, and instead concentrate on the minority that supports your view. Again, that's like someone saying "I have met a few people of such and such description and they were all this and that traits, so all of them must be that way."


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

Sorraia, I think you are wasting all your time and energy. It is starting to look like the OP is looking for confrontation rather than for sincere help. Some people ask for help but never agree with sound advice of the experienced; very familiar in my work as dog trainer.
How can you discuss rats if you never owned them in the first place?
I hope this thread will be locked by the moderators.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

HowlsOfAngels - 

I have a few pointed questions for you. Since you are a horse person, I hope you will understand what these questions mean.

Do you believe any of the following to be ethical?

- Breeding HYPP

- Breeding RER

- Breeding PSSM

- Breeding SCID carriers together

- Breeding OWLS carriers together

- Breeding HERDA carriers together


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ratjes said:


> Sorraia, I think you are wasting all your time and energy. It is starting to look like the OP is looking for confrontation rather than for sincere help. Some people ask for help but never agree with sound advice of the experienced; very familiar in my work as dog trainer.
> How can you discuss rats if you never owned them in the first place?
> I hope this thread will be locked by the moderators.


That's very well possible. My last post with pointed questions directed at the OP will be very telling. Depending on the answers, I may or may not continue past that point.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't think it is worth the chance to not try and convince this person. It is why i replied in the first place. Too much could be at stake. Troll? Quite possibly, but, as outlandish as it sounds to us, this person is far from atypical, and could be sincerely looking to breed Manx rats and make a quick buck or whatever their intentions are.


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

OP,

IMO Manxes ARE the twisty cats of the rat world. Since you mentioned them I know you would never advocate anyone try to work with them and create a line of them just because the original breeder had a few she claimed were healthy.

I'm also not sure if you know who Sorraia is, but she is one of the most reputable rat breeders in the US. She's not a byb or an inexperienced person who is offering you advice. 

May I also ask where you live? You had mentioned a manx your friend had had no problem regulating her temperature. That may be true if that rat lived in a climate controlled environment in a state with a temperate climate but consider that a tailed rat starts to struggle to cool itself in 80-85 degree weather.

Now remove the major area they use to cool themselves and move that rat to Texas, Florida, Georgia, South California or any of the southern states. During the summer we frequently get to at least 100 degrees. If my AC breaks during that time, my house gets into the high 80's (if I'm lucky) but usually it gets over 90--my tailed rats are in extreme danger of dying at this point. The tailess ones probably won't survive.

Say I have to take one of my rats to the vet for an emergency during the summer and I either don't have a car with AC or the AC is broken. OR (and this is a big fear of mine), what happens if my car breaks down during one of those 110 degree days in August and I have to walk a few miles to get help with the rats? Again this is pretty much a death sentence for the tailess rats.

I realize that's a lot of 'what if's' but what I'm trying to get you to consider is that breeding manxes intentionally removes something that is necessary for that rat to cool itself. Why would you ever intentionally breed an animal that is at a risk of dying from something as frequent as an AC malfunction?


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

wheeljack said:


> Why would you ever intentionally breed an animal that is at a risk of dying from something as frequent as an AC malfunction?


100% agreed. I hope there will never be an equivalent of the AKC (for dogs) for rats.
AKC has crippled many dog breeds and I hope rat breeders will not fall into that trap.
But unfortunately money talks and human egos need to fed.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

I take my time to read your posts I'd appreciate if 
you'd read mine as well. And I definitely do not 
appreciate smesyna's obvious ignorance, and I'd very much appreciate them leaving this conversation as they only seem to want a fight rather than to help anything.

I was still questioning wether or not it's right or wrong because a link you have provided me with mentions a breeder that seems to have been a popular breeder in the 90's though I do realise that the breeding of those rats had to of changed since that time.

And I'm not focusing on the minority, I have a life off the internet and was posting after I'd read 
only two of the links provided, I could only read a portion of most of them because as mentioned before I'm using a cell phone for all of my internet needs.

I appreciate how much information you've given me to look over and how devoted you are to rats. I hadn't known the specifics of how important the tail really is to helping a rat release body heat (nor did I know that a tailless rat took an hour longer to cool itself) it seemed like a superficial part of the rats anatomy, and I'm definitely learning more about anatomy the more I read. Lol

And I'd assumed that Tal was the only gene responsible for taillessness (or partial tailessness), I didn'y know that Stub was also a gene responsible for short tailled or tailless rats.

I've enjoyed learning so much about something it turns out I knew almost nothing about, thank you.

It is unethical for a Manx rat to purposely be bred for, especially if the chances of spine fusion, incontinance, etcetera are as high as they say. It's be like making a rat live throug old age itls entire life, and I had no idea that was how the cobby appearance was created. I thought they just had bigger hips, or something.

Have you spoken to any of the current breeders that work with manx rats?

And just because I'm a horse person doesn't mean I have any idea what any of those abreiviations mean, my closest guess is that one of them has to do with Lethal White syndrome, and yes, I am completely 
against any horse bred to another with out proper testing to make sure the breeding will produce a healthy foal and proper health checks throughout that mares pregnancy to make sure that everyhing is going well (no twins or other health risks).

Sorry, for the trouble. And thanks again for all of the information.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

MY ignorance? LOL Funny, since you didn't even cite what I was ignorant about. You really can't expect people to be respectful you of you when you give an attitude for people telling you things you don't want to hear. Just so you know 

PS: I did try to give you some helpful info, this thread would have went very differently were it not for your attitude.


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## HowlsOfAngels (Apr 9, 2011)

Go here: csbeck.com/ourrats

I think Vida disturbs me the most, it's the first picture I've seen of a Manx standing on it's hind end, it puts more of an emphasis on how the cobby body affects the rat, I thought it helped with balance, but I guess not as she looks unstable (could just be me). Not to mention the rest of her rats are pretty dang gross aswell. Another breeder she has a link to has a Manx female they claim moves around well, yet her picture is taken while she is laying down. Her favorite activity: sitting in her food dish, which for a young female rat seems a little lazy. I thought females were more active?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm glad you are reading what we have to say and taking it seriously. Earlier replies did not give that impression. 



HowlsOfAngels said:


> And just because I'm a horse person doesn't mean I have any idea what any of those abreiviations mean, my closest guess is that one of them has to do with Lethal White syndrome, and yes, I am completely
> against any horse bred to another with out proper testing to make sure the breeding will produce a healthy foal and proper health checks throughout that mares pregnancy to make sure that everyhing is going well (no twins or other health risks).


I was hoping you would. While I know some horse people aren't familiar with all of them, most horse people I know are familar with at least some of those.

All of those abbreviatiosn I listed stand for various inherited disorders. Some of those genes responsible are actually found in bloodlines bred for a specific look, or are directly responsible for that look. OWLS is one of those - responsible for frame overo markings, and in the homozygous state results in a lethal white foal. HYPP is found in Quarter Horse bloodlines going back to Impressive. HYPP horses are known for that muscular, bulky appearance popular in halter classes. HYPP is responsible for debilitating muscle weakness and tremors. It only takes one copy of the gene to cause these issues, and not all animals with that gene will show problems (it has varying degress of expression). SCID is found in Arabian bloodlines and is responsible for a low or absent immune system, usually resulting in the death of the foal within a few months of life. The other disorders have other effects (some also affect the muscles, similar to HYPP), and can be found in certain bloodlines or breeds. All of those disorders can be tested for (unlike mutations or disorders that occur in rats - we do not have those tests available to us). 

Breeding horses who have the genes for those disorders is pretty much equivalent to breeding manx rats. It really comes down to looks, there is no biological benefit to the animal. Fortunately horse breeders can test for those disorders and either not breed them, or make sure (in the case of recessive disorders or homozygous lethal disorders) they are bred ot the right animals such that the disorder will not occur. 

You do seem to be understanding better now what the rest of us were trying to get at when it comes to manx rats. In case you did know about any of those disorders in horses, I wanted to bring those up in the event that helped you to understand what we were getting at. You are new to rats and still researching, so I understand there is a lot you have left to learn.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Keep ti Civil. Everyone.

I don't know much about Manx rats so I can't really contribute. I think it's unethical, and since all my rats are rescues I have never seen one.


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## HuncaMunca (Dec 29, 2010)

I have an honest question here, what is the attraction to manx rats? I just want to know why people find this this to be such a desirable trait. Is it because people are put off buy rat's tails? I know some people that don't like rats simply for that quality, like they want them to look more like hamsters.
If that's the case then they should get hamsters, not rats, rats have a long tail for a reason. I guess I just don't understand this facination of manx rats, I had never even heard of them untill a few years ago. Not trying to take away from the disscusion, I just think rats aren't rats without their tails.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

I think. And this is my honest opinion. People love things that are different, unique and outlandish.

People want the big fancy one of a kind car, the rarest dog breed, the most exotic bird. Ect
People see PEW rats and go "oh how plain" And then they see :Oh pretty masked rat, I have never seen one of those I want it!" And that happens a lot.


I personally find it horrifying. They NEED their tails! It's like wanting a child who has no legs. They are MEANT to have it, and it disgusts me that people want to create more.


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## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

It'll even be odd to pet a Manx over its body and there is no tail to gentle slip through your hands. I love my ratties' tails, dirty or not 
I love my dogs with their ears, tails, dew claws and voices intact.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with Kiko. It's novelty. I suspect, for many (obviously not all!! lol) people, if they thought black or pew top eared rats were rare, they would be the big thing.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

In some areas PEW's are rare...and they have always wanted one. LOLOL


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Kiko said:


> I think. And this is my honest opinion. People love things that are different, unique and outlandish.
> 
> People want the big fancy one of a kind car, the rarest dog breed, the most exotic bird. Ect
> People see PEW rats and go "oh how plain" And then they see :Oh pretty masked rat, I have never seen one of those I want it!" And that happens a lot.


Although some people genuinely don't like the rat's tail (in which case they shouldn't even get a rat...), I do agree this is part of the reason. This is the exact trend that happens for every "new" variety out there. Burmese and Black-eyed Siamese went through the same exact thing - they were discovered, breeders started breeding them, word spread and pet people started demanding them, and now EVERY SINGLE breeder out there has or will get them. That's almost all you can find now... It is actually very sad and disheartening.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sorraia, they both originated out of the UK did they not? And they were supposed to be carefully bred by approved breeders but some individuals found a way to get past those restrictions?


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> Sorraia, they both originated out of the UK did they not?


yes.



> And they were supposed to be carefully bred by approved breeders but some individuals found a way to get past those restrictions?


That's what I've heard, but its all second hand information. The only people who really know the truth are those with whom those varieties originated.


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