# Serious mood change in Rupert and persistent biting??



## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Yesterday I asked advice about Rupert as in Mondays free roam, he nibbled on me a couple times. I went into yesterdays free roam knowing that if he does nibble/bite me, I need to firmly tell him no. But it seems to have gotten MUCH worse. He was running around the room like a LUNATIC and then decided to start fully attacking our feet.. Not playfully either.. He ran up, lunged himself at our feet and bit. Now it wasn't the hardest bite but it's got me scared/worried. My OH carried on playing with him to have him biting her clothes, feet, hands and EAR. It was literally like someone had given a 5 year old a bottle of Coke with fizzy sweets. I just don't know what to do? I'm now scared for my hands and my feet and I don't know how to address him about his sudden aggressive behavior? Is it him trying to show his dominance over me? Or is it just a naughty rat phase?

All I know is that I need help because I have NO idea how to deal with this situation.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Oh jeez sounds like he is indeed testing the situation, and challenging your leadership. You have to show him you are the alpha of the pack - a firm No! When he nips, maybe even a light tap on the nose or flip and pin. I always give mine cuddles and love after a pin or a telling off. If you need to wear shoes and thick gloves or oven mits for protection then go ahead. The last thing you want to do is appear wary or scares as he will feel he has the upper hand. Hopefully you can nip this in the bud.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

It's literally like he's changed over night and it's really thrown me. What do you mean by flip and pin? I mentioned it last night to my OH and we sat like "how in Gods name do we do that?!". I'm scared of hurting him! I think I'm going to have to wear shoes/gloves because I find myself flinching! We had both the boys in there too last night and poor Arthur just hid in my hoodie the whole time :/ He hates noises so poor sod was terrified. Definitely only doing one to one free roam from now until Rupert is sorted!


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

You will see rats doing flip and pin to each other - one ends up on top while the other is lying with his legs in the air. They may stay like that for a while until the pinned rat stops struggling. Then the other rat may 'power groom' the pinned rats belly. It's a display of dominance, but rats will sometimes take turns to do this during play.

I've had to flip my rats in an attempt to stop them fighting (had some bad injuries and vet advised neutering but I'm trying to sort it at home first with immersion and by becoming alpha.)
You literally flip them over on their backs, gently, and hold them there. Then maybe scratch their belly with a finger. It doesn't hurt them and they may squeak in protest.

Sometimes my rats run about wild and zoom up to me and nip, it's more an attention thing and it doesn't hurt even though I can feel it. More like a pinch. Could be an attention thing too. Maybe he's saying play with me?


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

How do I actually flip them though? I'm far too scared of hurting him by doing it wrong. And wont he bite me if I scratch his belly? Oh we were playing with him as much as we could. Scuttling our hands, we took in string and toys and were tickling his sides, picking him up, rollarcoastering him up our arms. I don't really know what else to do. I'm scared to hurt him but I'm scared to be bitten. I actually feel hopeless right now.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

I know that feeling, rats can be so much hard work. Sometimes it takes time and trial and error. 
I flip my rats all the time during play and tickle their belly. I make a silly noise with my tongue so they know this is play time flipping, and generally it's a really light tickle which makes them popcorn about and zoom back for more. The naughty flip I generally use only in extreme situations when someone has been really naughty. Maybe save it for if he really bites you hard.

Usually what folk do when they get bitten is to put the rat back in the cage while they tend to their wound, but this is the worst response as it sends a message that biting = human leaving me alone! 

What I would start of with now while he is still 'test' nipping is a loud clap of your hands and a no, in a low authoritative voice. (Like a teacher would use with a misbehaving child.) 
My rats recognise my tone change when they are doing naughty things like climbing on stuff they shouldn't be and it actually stops them in their tracks now. If he continues to nip then move on to a No and a tap on the nose. Just a light tap, it's not meant to hurt, just to reinforce and get their attention.

Rats learn quite fast so hopefully by repeating these steps he will eventually get the picture you mean business.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Also remember to reinforce good behaviour! If he approaches you without nipping lots of praise in your 'good boy' voice and maybe a small treat. Otherwise it's all bad cop and no fun!


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Thanks Kitter. I will start to enforce that tonight. It's just such a slap in the face when you think you're doing so well with them and then they turn around and basically say "nope". I'll get Rupert out solo tonight and wear some armor, hopefully with just me in there he wont be so hyper which means I can actually interact with him proper rather than fear for my poor tootsies!!


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

I should add that it's taken me two months to get to the stage where I feel my rats are really listening and responding to me with understanding. And most of the big developments have taken place in the last two weeks while I've been working with my boys in a more hands on way. One of my rats got a nasty fight wound and it was RatDaddys immersion techniques and advice that have really seen me through. I recommend reading not just the immersion thread from start to end, but any other posts that RatDaddy has responded to regarding behavioural issues as he has some gems of insight.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

I'll have another read through of the Immersion thread and keep an eye out for RatDaddys post replies!  I go on holiday on the 22nd so I was hoping that me and the lads could at least have SOME understanding by that point so I didn't come home after a week and have very hostile rats!


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

It really is amazing how fast they can learn. I spent 10 minutes trying to treat train one of my boys how to spin on the spot in return for a small portion of yogurt drops, and after that he had it down! When mine where new though, they went through mood and behaviour changes quite a bit while they settled in. Maybe it's part of the process for some rats.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Maybe! If only we could all speak rat aye? Imagine how much simpler it would be to explain you want to love them not terrify them! Awww what a cute trick!!! Lets hope one day I can do that aye haha


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

How's your wee nibbley boy doing?


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## Adeliek (Jul 28, 2014)

This little man really is pushing it now hes found his feet with you! He might be starting to go through rattie puberty as well...we all know what teenagers are like! Another method I have used on my rats is picking them up and sharply blowing in their face and saying no, however some rats really don't like it but with others it stops them in their tracks. It really depends on your little Rupert's personality just persevere and you'll find something that works


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Kitterpuss said:


> How's your wee nibbley boy doing?


He's still nibbling like a troop but I am sticking with the NO. I also make a tiny squeak when he does it, tap his nose and then say no. The squeak tends to stop him in his tracks so he stays still to be told off! I don't know if he's just hyper but yesterday I went into their room and opened the cage (I tend to pet them in their cage/talk to them for 10 minutes before I get them out) and he runs around hyper like a mad one. He comes to the front of the cage and looks out over the edge at me and just seems really bouncy! Is that happy to see me or just happy to come out? Haha! He's a springy little guy 



Adeliek said:


> This little man really is pushing it now hes found his feet with you! He might be starting to go through rattie puberty as well...we all know what teenagers are like! Another method I have used on my rats is picking them up and sharply blowing in their face and saying no, however some rats really don't like it but with others it stops them in their tracks. It really depends on your little Rupert's personality just persevere and you'll find something that works


Euk lets not even talk about teenagers haha! If he is anything like I was, I'm in for a VERY long ride haha. I've got into the habit of a tiny squeak, nose bop and a sharp NO. He's a lovely inquisitive little boy so lets hope it works as I can just tell by the way he is, he's going to be a LOT of fun to explore with  I think he's bringing out the brave man in Arthur too, he still doesn't willingly come to me but he's starting to look interested in what I'm doing when I go in there. I know he'll take time which is fine, I'm willing to make and wait the time


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

This all sounds really positive! All that bouncing is popcorning, which is what ratties do when they are excited and playful. The nipping sounds like it could well be an over excited, testing things with his mouth thing rather than aggression so keep up with the reinforcement and hopefully things will keep progressing well. My wee boys all nipped and nibbled for the first few weeks but the grew out of it as they got to know me. Rats definitely learn from one another so it's good that your other rat can see Rupert having fun and gaining confidence, hopefully it will give him the push to explore more too. Well done!


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Kitterpuss said:


> This all sounds really positive! All that bouncing is popcorning, which is what ratties do when they are excited and playful. The nipping sounds like it could well be an over excited, testing things with his mouth thing rather than aggression so keep up with the reinforcement and hopefully things will keep progressing well. My wee boys all nipped and nibbled for the first few weeks but the grew out of it as they got to know me. Rats definitely learn from one another so it's good that your other rat can see Rupert having fun and gaining confidence, hopefully it will give him the push to explore more too. Well done!


Oh good!! I thought it was popcorning but didn't wanna say so JUST in case he wasn't and I didn't wanna upset myself that really is wasn't excited! But that has made my day, what a cutie! I got told by someone else it could be testing out (the nipping). Do I tell him now when he bites things like my shoe laces/hoodie? I wasn't because he wasn't biting ME but if I should be, I can start enforcing that  I hope so! Arthur is a sucker for a piece of tomato so I'm gonna start drawing him out with promises of sweet cherry tomatoes haha!


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Mine like to play tug of war with my shoelaces when I'm trying to tie them in the morning  I generally just use a distraction technique for things like this, rather than a reprimand, but it depends on the severity of the chewing. If he was actually eating a hole in my shoes then that would be different! Mine still nip my feet occasionally but I think its an invitation to play - they are usually hyper and popcorning when this happens. As you get to know your boys they get a little easier to read. I felt so over whelmed at first, but we seem to understand each other now. Its so lovely to watch their little personalities develop


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Right thats good to know!  Yeah I'm starting to see a little bit of who the are the more time I spend with them. I find myself sat at work missing them and when people come over, willing them to go home that bit earlier so I can get them out! (I'm sure I suffer serious cage guilt haha). It is very over whelming at first, you can see why people get them and then give up because they don't have the knowledge or supper (forums etc) to know that earning their friendship and trust takes time!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not sure how old your rats are, but this might just be playfighting...

My part wild rat would jump from my desk right into my face and then lay a half dozen bites on my nose and face before I could swat her off... it was quite terrifying, until I noticed I wasn't bleeding and my skin wasn't pierced.... The attack was actually quite savage and it felt for all purposes absolutely real... but there was no blood and no pain afterwards...

It turned out to be a game... a very scary game, but a game none the less... I played along and she would mock bite my hands and feet, but mostly she went after my face, then I would swat and flip and pin her when it became too insane.

This kind of behavior usually begins when rats are about 6 weeks old and ends at about 10 weeks.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Thank you for the input RatDaddy! When I got the lads they said they were "15 weeks" but looking at their sizes etc, I would put them more at 8-10 weeks old! Rupert doesn't hurt when he bites, it just scares me because he turns his head SO QUICK that I'm not sure if it's going to be a play bite or a hard bite! Yesterday during free roam I put socks on my hands (I can't find gloves haha!) and I felt much more confident handling/playing with him. My hand chased him around the room and every now and then he'd grab my hand and softly bite it then run on. I had him chasing string and climbing on my head  He was popcorning and running all over the place haha. I think he needs longer free range time though as he's VERY active so I need to tire him out before I put him back in the cage. I'm thinking thats going to be in my new plan of action


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My daughter came in crying and terrified that our part wild rat had attacked her. It was actually hard to explain that it was only a game as that rat was fierce when she played. But she never hurt and she never drew blood, well at least until she grew up, then she was actually quite vicious when she got mad... But she rarely got upset and if handled properly she was a sweetheart. But let's face it she was a part wild rat and that was to be expected.

Every rat domestic or part wild we've owned went through the mock combat phase, it's normal and you will actually miss it when it's over... one day they just stop playing and it actually feels somewhat sad. Generally have fun playing along, usually end the game if it really gets out of hand by rolling them over and skritching their bellies or snuggling them so they know it's over and they get their reward... Playfighting is how rats build their pack bonds and establish social order, it's a right of passage for rats since the dawn of their species.

Sorry I didn't catch it right off, but I didn't realize how old your rats were at first.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

I've had quite a few people on about "rolling them over" but how?! I tried to give him belly tickles after we played and he's just so feisty. He jumped up and ran off and I get that means he doesn't want it but I suppose he doesn't know he'd enjoy them till I do it! I just have no idea how to get them on their back to give them belly tickles!!  

No no thank you for the advice!!  I know he's just a youngster so must have balls of energy that he has to waste so it was kind of expected! I'm sure Arthur will do it when he comes around to feeling comfortable


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## new_rattie_mommy (Aug 24, 2014)

Do you work with him in a small play area? Like the size of a bathroom? For the first two months of working with my boys I was in a foyer that was proabably about 3x4 feet. My one is calm and the other is very hyper, sounding just like your rupert actually when you described him running about like a crazy person. I call mine crazy daisy (yes my boys have girl names lol) all the time cuz hes so hyper. For a long time he used to take out his energy by coming and biting my toes. It wasn't a hard bite but if i didn't correct him right away he would bite it harder after a little test bite. When I would correct him he would just come back right away to do it again, even when I tapped him on the nose and told him no or picked him up and put him somewhere else. When he gets his mind set he doesn't ever give up. He did this for at least a month until eventually he caught on that it isn't ok to nibble me. Since we were in a small enclosed area i always had access to him, and it kinda brought out his bad behavior (or boredom behavior in my opinion) and I was able to correct them right away. It would be good to have that one on one attention with him in a small area where you know you can have access to correct him right away and you need to know that you are in charge. You can't fear him. It sounds like more of a sassy playful behavior gotten out of hand more than a truly aggressive behavior. I even went thru a phase when I first got my boys where daisy bit me hard and drew blood a few times. Once for no reason at all, once because I dripped water on his head by accident and he hated it, and he would do it from in the cage when u stick your hand or arm by the cage. i was worried that he would do it again for no reason during playtime but I always kept my dominant energy, not allowing him to get the upper hand. Anyways, point of the story, allow him to run around and get that crazy energy out, mine always calms down after a few minutes of that. Correct any nippy behavior immediately when it happens and learn to anticipate his move towards your feet, etc. What they are thinking can be pretty obvious lol I would say use the nose tap method and if that doesn't work and he is getting carried away use the pinning method. i have never tried it besides flipping mine lightly during play but it sounds like a great idea and i wish i had known that technique when I was going thru this with my boy. give him some time and see if it resolves. it could take a couple weeks but he will learn it's not ok. Don't be afraid of him or give him less attention because of it. I know it's scary but i don't think he will aggressively attack you or anything.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Some rats don't hang around long for belly skritches, that doesn't mean they don't get some on the hit and run.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Mine don't hang around long for belly tickles either- they shoot off like a wind up toy and popcorn about the place. I use a special playtime 'voice' when I play like this and when I put on that voice they always come running over for fun, so I figure they must enjoy this type of play.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Well we got the out again yesterday for their fun times and although Rupert is a little devil, he does help Arthur come out of his shell a LOT! I just feel the pressure now because my OH wont pick up or even play with Rupert after he properly dug his teeth in her. He doesn't seem to be listening to the NO *bop* when I do it. It just seems like he has endless energy. 2 hours and he's still running around like a crazy boy irregardless of how much we play. He seems to be going to Arthur a lot more recently too. If he's not running around, he's fighting with Arthur. The first couple times were play as there was no squeaking but after that he got more violent and Arthur was squeaking endlessly. I had to break it up every time after that. I just feel very lost at to where to go with him  I'm scared for my fingers (bad BAD experience with one of my hammys when I was younger gave me this fear) but I'm just as scared that he's going to end up worse and unsocial-able. What makes it worse is I'm away on holiday for 5 days from the 22nd Sept and my F-I-Law is taking care of them but he wont get them out the cage. So I'm scared I'm going to come back to rats at square one


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## new_rattie_mommy (Aug 24, 2014)

I left mine for 3 days after only having them for a few weeks and i was worried too but they were just the same when i got back. They will probably be very hyper though! Your Rupert sounds just like my Daisy. Very hyper, always getting into shenanigans and picking fights with his brother. I was worried at first cuz he was so crazy and also nippy with me but he became a mama's boy in the end. My other rat is very independent and lazy and doesn't want attention or to be picked up at all. he's terrified of it even though he does seem to appreciate the cuddles every once and a while once he's in my arms. But crazy daisy sits on my shoulder and comes for cuddles all the time and he never gets nippy with me anymore. I didn't do any specific training either to resolve the problem. Just telling him no and bopping the nose even though he ignored that too. It just resolved itself. I think you should give Rupert some time to really bond more with you and he might resolve those issues and become your most precious baby since he certainly is outgoing. And make sure you give him lots of time to get his energy out. I can't imagine having given my daisy away and missing out on the love he has to offer now.


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Oh good! Hyper I can deal with haha  I keep saying no and bopping (which as you said, he ignores haha), I'm just hoping that he does come around eventually. He hates being petting (he immediately whips his head around to bite me) and hates being picked up (jumps and runs like crazy). I play with him but then he starts nipping/biting me so I feel like I can't play with him, I can't cuddle him and I can't even carry him around the house to get used to me because he nips all my skins (face, arms, everything). I'm not going to give him away but I just feel like I'm at a stand still with him. I'm getting two young boys end of October and after quarantine, I'd like to start doing introductions but I just have this feeling he's not going to take to it. I feel hopeless.


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## Pacmunchkin (Oct 14, 2013)

This sounds like what I'm going through with one of mine at the moment; a mixture of hyper play time mixed with dominance issues. 
I'm hopefully coming through the other side of this now, because whille he still puts his teeth on me, he's no longer drawing blood.
The way I have been dealing with this is to wear long jumpers (he loved to bite my wrists) and just prove to him that I am stronger than him and that I'll pick him up when I want to and now when he wants me to.
Lots of flipping and scritching and just making sure my hands were always on top of him during play, but pulling away when he went to nip me.
Over the last couple of weeks the biting has turned to licking and he's been puffing up less. 
I've been bitten a few times and the nipping has drawn blood, but I know he could do a LOT more damage than that, so I can tell he doesn't mean it.
So yeah, the way I've been dealing with it is to be more hands on, knowing I'll get a nip, but to keep pushing him until he learns that nipping me isn't going to do him any favours.

Good luck.


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