# A conversation between me and the previous owner



## katy_green (Oct 18, 2007)

My e-mail:
"I need as much information as I can get on these rats. They are very weak and malnourished, and I need to know if it is because they are old, sick, or just neglected. I am currently feeding the skinnier one baby food with a syringe and I have a vet appointment for Monday. I need to be able to tell the vet what is going on. Don't worry, I am taking on full responsibility for these sick animals, and I am not asking anything from you.

How old are they exactly? If you don't know, please give me your BEST
guess. If they are old, I don't care, I'm not going to take them back
to you, but it matters in rehabilitating them.

Did you get them from a pet store, a breeder, or what? I'm trying to
figure out a little bit about their genetics. Are they brothers?
Rats that are this severely underweight could possibly have cancer, or some ongoing illness. If they don't have cancer, then this is purely neglect. How long have you owned them?

Thank you."

Her response:
"I got them off of a lady out in ocoee, they were for pets. She had posted them on crqaigslist like I did. She had 3 males and 1 female. Some had mated already. So she was giving away the 2 that had not mated. When I picked them up they were very healthy and fat to say the least. She had bought both at the same time, so I really could not say if they are related or not. She had them for aleast 4 months. They were adults from what she said. But from what I was told about them from her they are about 8 to 9 months old. I had put food in the box when you came to pick them up. That it what i was feeding them (rat blocks). I am really sorry for they condition they are in. I just did not know how to take care of them. I only have had them for 7 weeks in all. That is why I posted them. I wanted someone who knows how to take care of them to get them. I was scared because of how they were beginning to look. I have tried all that I could to give them a variety of food. Carrots, cherry tomatoes peas, and the treats you would give them like dried bananas and seeds. I just did not want them to die. Let me know how it goes on monday at the vet?"



So, in 7 weeks they went from fat and healthy to emaciated and weak. :| Why do people adopt pets that they know nothing about? Rats are not maintainence-free pets!


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## sonoma (May 26, 2007)

The way I see itâ€¦she just didnâ€™t bother feeding them or they have a serious underlying condition, in which case she should have taken them to a vet before they got into such a terrible state. Either way she neglected them, and there really is no good excuse for it. Arg, some people. :?


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

I never have claimed to be a kind or nice person to other people...

This person is so lucky that it wasnt me that was emailing with her...I have a tendency to verbally and emotionally iviscerate those that treat animals or humans that poorly.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

At the very least they could have bought some _Rat Food_ at the _petstore_.

I mean, it's not the greatest stuff in the world, but at the least they'd have had _something_ to eat.

Almost two months, those poor babies...


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## rat_ratscal (Sep 23, 2007)

DFW_Rat_Luvr said:


> I never have claimed to be a kind or nice person to other people...
> 
> This person is so lucky that it wasnt me that was emailing with her...I have a tendency to verbally and emotionally iviscerate those that treat animals or humans that poorly.


both of them are lucky i wasnt the one sending or recieving the e-mail!! i would have lost it, but you trying having 5 little sisters (most of them pour poison in your fish tank when your at your dads house) then you see how short of a "line" you have (now im talking like my parents!)


you did the right thing though, good job! hope that rattie has a long happy life and good luck at the vets! maybe you could post pics and we could try to determine the little ones age?


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## crapola (Feb 12, 2007)

katy, if i were you, i would be telling the vet where you got them from. someone needs to know what bad pet people they are.


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Where did the e-mail say they were not being fed. It said rat blocks and fruit and veggies. That is what most of you guys do. ****... most of the long time owners advise AGAINST the pet store "rat food" aside from the blocks (masuri)

There was something besides a food problem, or the person that wrote the e-mail lied. Plain and simple. Rat blocks make good food combined with fresh produce.

Oh, and don't go violating the privacy of these people like the previous poster suggests. You saved the rats, that is what matters... violating the civil rights of other people is not something that we should be encouraging here. We are supposed to be people that respect all of nature. That includes man, whether we like it or not. You saved the rats, look forward, not back.


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## katy_green (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm betting the person lied, these guys aren't sick.


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## simbakitten (Oct 10, 2007)

it sounds like they just couldnt be botherd to feed them. some people!


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Yeah, I am in the "they lied" camp.

Or... the food could have been just fine, and they did not know how to treat the rats... as in, they NEVER changed their cage, NEVER took them out, NEVER interacted with them.

Some people think rats are hamsters with tails.

I see in rats the full range of emotions, so it is not hard to believe, that if ignored long enough, regardless of being fed or not, just ignored, depressed, neglected... you begin to lose the will to keep trying to live.

I think that those rats will love you from the bottom of their hearts, as true as as rat is capable of loving. It will be true love, from the rat's point of view, after a while. I can imagine, once they realize that you are not them, they will behave in a way a grateful man would.


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

yashu said:


> I can imagine, once they realize that you are not them, they will behave in a way a grateful man would.


That is SO true. I have a couple of rescues that I SWEAR are flat out GRATEFUL. We feed them, theyre grateful. We clean the cages and give new toys, theyre grateful. We play with them or hold them, they look at us like we hung the moon. And these are the girls that were rescued from the worst situations. Youd think they would never trust a human again, but thats not it at all - its like they are just waiting for someone to give them a chance to love them...nothing more, nothing less.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i hear ya DFW! i won't get into nezumi's story right now as its long and i need to go to sleep at some point, but this rat was NEVER given a reason to expect anything but abuse and horror from humans. never once before i got her at 4 months of age was she handled properly not to mention the other numerous horrors she under went. to give a bit of an example of just a faction of what she endured, when i got her i had to make an immediate appointment with the vet for a tail amputation. she was already missing nearly a third of her tail and the tip of it was green, black and you could see the bone, though it was was fuzzy. at first she would SCREAM if anyone but me so much as touched her but with hardly any work on my part (at least i didn't view it as much work) she became the most affectionate and joyous little rat i have yet to meet. and that's saying something now that we have little ink and violet (both of whom will very willingly lick the skin right off your hand if given enough time). i have never known any other animal with so much power to forgive as a rat. not one other.


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## crapola (Feb 12, 2007)

yashu said:


> Oh, and don't go violating the privacy of these people like the previous poster suggests. You saved the rats, that is what matters... violating the civil rights of other people is not something that we should be encouraging here. We are supposed to be people that respect all of nature. That includes man, whether we like it or not. You saved the rats, look forward, not back.


i'm not violating their privacy, they dont deserve to have any privacy. people who abuse animals often are child abusers.. and what about the civil rights of animals who cant defend themselves against stupidity?? i'm sorry, but if it came down to a choice between upsetting these people by reporting them, or saving any future pets, i know what i would be doing. THOSE PEOPLE DONT DESERVE TO HAVE ANY FUTURE ANIMALS!!!


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Oh man, the "child abuser" line... Proper dicipline in this country is considered "child abuse". You may want to live in a nanny state, but I do not. Parents are afraid to properly dicipline their kids in the USA. Spank a child and go to jail or lose your children, it's crazy. What do you think happens to kids that are never punished and never taught early that there are consequences to their actions?

You are looking at two of the results that this rat lover has had to take in and nourish back to health. 

I am willing to bet that the previous owners of these rats were never spanked a day in their life... that they were given whatever they screamed for, and their worst punishment was being sent to their room with cable TV, a phone, and perhaps internet access (if they are still younger).

Child abusers... those are strong words to arrive at from an internet post about rats eh? 

BTW, everyone deserves civil rights. Everyone. There is not one person on the planet that does not diserve their civil rights. Don't get me started on that one... hehe... just ask DFW


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## simbakitten (Oct 10, 2007)

yashu said:


> Oh man, the "child abuser" line... Proper dicipline in this country is considered "child abuse". You may want to live in a nanny state, but I do not. Parents are afraid to properly dicipline their kids in the USA. Spank a child and go to jail or lose your children, it's crazy. What do you think happens to kids that are never punished and never taught early that there are consequences to their actions?
> 
> You are looking at two of the results that this rat lover has had to take in and nourish back to health.
> 
> ...


on no u di'nt! physical "punshing" (abuse) is NO way to teach your child what is right and wrong, it teaches them that violence is the way to resolve problems. rather than teaching them what they did hurt someone and made them feel bad, and why they feel like that, and why that is bad. do NOT get me started, i see people abusing there childern all the time one the bus to and from school. smacking their 2 yr old kids for dropping thier dummies!its no way to teach a child what is right or wrong!just...dont!


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

yashu said:


> Oh man, the "child abuser" line... Proper dicipline in this country is considered "child abuse". You may want to live in a nanny state, but I do not. Parents are afraid to properly dicipline their kids in the USA. Spank a child and go to jail or lose your children, it's crazy. What do you think happens to kids that are never punished and never taught early that there are consequences to their actions?
> 
> You are looking at two of the results that this rat lover has had to take in and nourish back to health.
> 
> ...



I love ya Yashu, I do. I respect you and would LOVE to sit down to dinner with you and your wife. My husbadn and I have discussed that you sound like the most fascinating individual, and to be honest, I would LOVE to pick your brain on a number of issues, and believe it or not, learn from you. BUT, I have to disagree with you on this one (shock!) :wink: 

Seriously though...

Im nearly 40 years old. I counsel people for a living now and I STILL have nightmares from my horrific upbringing. I could tell you stories to make your hair fall OUT. And that is nothing compared to what i hear now.

Thats the human warfront from all the people that visited these horrors on the heads of their children. The people that did this did NOT deserve civil rights, they deserved a swift kick in the ass. If I wasnt such a **** shrimp, Id like to be the one to deliver it - yes, Im angry.

And then the animals - many times, theyre abused by the same low-lifes that abused their children. Like the little girl rat that came in as a rescue. Her 'people' bought her as a play toy for their cat. Why? Well, I asked them this. THeir answer was because it was funny. THEY deserve to be mauled. And Id like to be the one to watch. Not the one to fight for the civil rights that they themselves gave up when they decided to be less than human.

RAH!

But I still like and respect you. Just not them....or this view.


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## Phobie (Jun 3, 2007)

That's so sad  I hope they're ok


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

FYI - Pearl is our girl who was the 'cat's pet'.
Despite 2 months of being mauled on an almost daily basis, Pearl is fine. She is happy and healthy and grateful seeming. She is the one that trusts everyone and gives lots of kisses. Amazing. People arent that forgiving.


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## Phobie (Jun 3, 2007)

That is so lovely, imagine a person doing that, you know they just couldn't!


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

oh yeah - I know for a fact.

Im almost forty years old and Ive yet to forgive my own parents.

Its amazing isnt it, the way that an animal can forgive the human race for the atrocities that so many visit upon them. Heck, Ive not done anything like that ever, to human or animal and even *I* feel guilty.

BLAH


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## Phobie (Jun 3, 2007)

My own rat is ill, by no fault of my own, but I still feel terrible for him. I don't understand how people can do such things.


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

whats wrong wiht your rattie? Did I miss a post about it?


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

DFW, I respect your feelings and opinions, I respect your point of view. Know that. You have my respect, whether we agree or disagree.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

(first-side note: yashu? where did you come up with your name? i thought for the longest time you were female until reading this post because of it. in my understanding of japanese language it means FEmale demon. i just thought it was funny...)

i honestly think there is no animal more forgiving then the rat. i have a bit more time now so i'll try to keep nezumi's story as concise as possible. if this doesn't prove to you their supernatural powers to forgive i doubt much would. 

nezumi was about 4 months old when i got her but i was able to find just about everything on her history. 

in my old high school there was a teacher that had quite a variety of different and exotic animals. he had everything from spiders, reptiles, piranhas, ferrets and of course rats. he had great respect for all the animals and brought many of them to school (the piranha was actually set up there). he did feed his carnivorous animals other animals but to insure that they were getting healthy food and the animal that had to be food lived the best life possible he bred his own. he was careful about breeding to not over stress the mothers and he never took a baby away before they were 5 weeks for the rat (not as sure about the fish). during their time with him they were treated just as well as we treat our babies. he believed highly that all animals that have to sacrifice their lives so that another can should live in the absolute lap of luxury while alive. and he at least stunned the animal before giving them to his snake (i'm still on the fence about how humane that really is but this isn't really the point of it anyway). my point here is that he did the best he could by every animal in his care, whether it be animal destined to be food for another or not. well, just before nezumi and her siblings were born the owner died in a car accident and there was no one to take the animals.

at first the school tried to keep them all but few knew much about the animals and really, a school just is not the right sort of place for so many animals. during the ime they had the animals they tried to cut corners by getting cheap food and bedding, the rats were placed on pine, i'm not sure what they were eating. it took them a bit (nez was almost 4-5 weeks old by then) but they realized that they just didn't have the funds or means to care for them. so they gave the animals away to anyone (mostly students) who wanted them. 

nezumi, a sister and two brothers went with one student who thought it would be a great idea to breed them. they went home and most of them lived out their lives in a hamster cage (males with males, females with females). it only took him about a week to decide he didn't want to breed them afterall. so, he found the person that took the snake. 

they placed the hamster cages, with pine bedding and hamster mix right next to the snake tank. nezumi was then privileged to watch and hear as her sister and brothers were killed by the snake. when it was her turn she fought hard and took the eye of the snake in her struggles. 

luckily her next owner was there and took her from the snake and home. where she was now in a 10 gallon tank, still on pine and still on a hamster mix and never handled. 

about a week later the new owner moved into a friend's basement and across the street from me (though i didn't know at the time). she was there for about a month. during her time there the "friend" placed the rat in the gerbil cage TWICE to watch them fight while the owner was away. first time she was pummeled but the owner came back in time to stop her from getting any serious physical harm (when handled she was ALWAYS grabbed from the tail because they were afraid she would bite them). the next time she was put in with the gerbils she killed and ate them. she was hotboxed (when a room is sealed off and everyone smokes weed, the entire room can become foggy with smoke) innumerable times. her tank's side was broken (i only hope she wasn't inside at the time) and the other tank she was placed she was easily able to escape. for the most part she was living inside the couch. and at one point her broke her tail. the owner's "friend" decided the best way to treat that was to pull pieces off of it when she was inside the rusty hamster cage they finally got for her. 

by the time i got to her she was about 4months old, FAR too thin and in a panic. she was frantic when she was in contact with me BUT she didn't make any sign to bite and though it would have been easy for her to reach the cage or the chair she stayed on my by her own choice. the father of the "friend" was surprised that she wasn't trying to bite or had ran from me. she was in the rusty hamster cage with a bowl of hamster mix (mostly tiny seeds, corn and sunflower seeds) and the water in her bottle was VERY cloudy. the cage was lined with pine and it was RANK with the smell of urine and feces. she never even had a name. the people would call her snake food, rat, critter, vermin and it. 

i took her across the street and made an immediate appointment for a tail amputation, it was beyond obvious that it was gangrenous. 

she would SCREAM when anyone other then me so much as touched her at first. but we gave her some time and with the help of the resident rats Myght, Dust and especially Pocket she became one of the most loving and openly affectionate rat i have ever known. she was adventurous and full of character. she absolutely LOVED playing auntie to all the babies when spider and snicketts gave me their little surprises. she never once got huffy with a new arrival to the cage. she loved tormenting the cat and chasing him around the room. she would do ninja kicks half way across the room and dive from the top of my bookshelf with glee and open abandonment. she never held herself back. 

some may be thinking that maybe she just didn't remember the past before me because rats aren't supposed to have that great of memories. i wish that was true and i hope she was too young to remember some of it. but she did remember. i was friend's with the father adn would go over to have coffee or just hand out in the garage for a while. i didn't notice at first because she was still rather nervous all round. but as she came around at home and outside i realized she was terrified of being over at the garage and especially when she was in the house. she wouldn't leave the pouch or hoodie when anywhere else she would be the first to be off exploring and expecting me to reach out my arms so she could get a better look at things. she wasn't doing that though. sometimes i would be a couple hours in the house chatting and having coffee. after a bit she would be brave enough to stretch her body out but would never leave physical contact with me. she remembered what happened there. once i realized that she was afraid i stopped taking her over there.

i've seen dogs rasied in puppy mills, dogs that had been beaten and neglected. it took them years not to pee on the floor because of a loud noise, years to even come out of hiding under the furniture when people were moving about and even at their best they are nervy dogs. not nezumi, she knew she was safe and she forgave. when she had NEVER even so much had had a cuddle or a gentle pat she trusted a human nonetheless. 

finally, on last note. i can't claim with certainty that the cause for nezumi lung issues were from her exposure to pine for all that time but i highly suspect it was a contributing factor. she died at 18 months old due to a drug resistant respiratory infection. after all she went through she was far too young to die then. it was so sad too, she fought that illness with all that she had in her and more that i don't know where the enregy came from but the illness mutated and her immune system was just too weak to keep fighting even though we caught it early. i didn't have her autopsied so its just my suspicions but please let nezumi's death not be in vain and make sure no one leaves their rats on pine bedding. 

anyway, that's her story. i told you it was long. and i kept it as short as i could too. there was a whole 'nother issue with Pocket that only would have given her more reason to be wary of humans but i won't to get into that, its rather long as well. i've never known another animal or human to be as forgiving as the rat and especially as forgiving as nezumi. but the saddest thing is nezumi's story is not unique and is not the very worst that happens everyday to these wonderful little beings and they KEEP forgiving. they don't forget the pain, they choose to be more then the pain and forgive. it really is quite something. 

to those of you that have read this story before and have read it again thank you very much. to those of you who even read to here after i said i was going to keep it short thanks goes to you as well. i hope her story does not go unheard.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

Keeping along the same lines as twitch here:

All right, so as well all know There is a lot of Objective neglect with pets now-a-days. And it cannot be over-looked any further. It's becoming increasingly difficult more so now than ever that people (parents especially so) are getting their children pets as gifts.

Now, all though this is a valiant idea, I must digress. For you see, it's the concept of "Maturity". You see, if you're a parent (And a know a good majority of you are) you'd be more than obliged to agree that children aren't ready to handle pets unless you yourself would be willing to take the pet in as a "_family_" pet.

Now, to my definition a _Family_ Pet is a creature, most likely of the mammal type or amphibious species which in fact is shared in cooperation with the house hold in attempt to bring the family closer. Or even to have around for companionship.

Or maybe you just like pets and you want to alienate your family forcefully as well? I'm not entirely sure, but the world turns to different strokes.

In any case, I've taken some liberty to assemble what can very well be known as the "a****** Parent" or the "Ignorant Parent."

To my definition an "Ignorant Parent" is one of which presents the following characteristics:

* An Aggressive need to show affection to a child without ever really knowing why. Yet at the same time rejects anything the child may be saying or doing at the time. 
*I.E.* "Bobby, are you smoking?" *Bobby lights a cigarette in front of his mother directly puffing a cloud of smoke into her face* "No." "All right, so long as you say so."
*I.E.* "Bobby! I bought you a dog!" "Neat." "Well, aren't you going to name it?" "Why should I?" "You two play nice."

* An over bearingness to avoid absolutely anything which may twist they way which reality is perceived. 
*I.E.* "Bobby Bobby! Your video game taught you how to have sex and kill people!" "No, mom, really I did it because this kid always bullied me at school and teachers always *ignored* me. " "But that Video Game is made by a company! And although you're far too young to play it, I bought it for you anyway assuming that you could handle the violence and sex!" "Mom, I'm 12. I don't even know about sex." "But they put it in the game!" "No! They didn't! I had to downoad, hack my Xbox, Do a bunch of illegal things to see pixellated nipples!" "AND NOW YOUR SAYING NIPPLES!? THEY'RE GETTING SUED!"

* Another parent/doctor/office of law/judge/supreme court/hitler may be willing to tell you that you're being a complete idiot, yet you perceive to push foward!
*I.E.* "YOU CAN'T FIT A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE!" "Say's you. But The war in Iraq will get the hole in the peg! Our supreme leader said it's possible, So we can!"
(Just as a side note here. The iraq war (Ahem: "*Invasion*". Yep, oil.)

* Authority figures have taken your children away yet you still believe that they sit in front of you reading pornographic books and watching pornographic material on tv. Yet you knit.

... I'm not even gonna make an example for that one.

If I haven't illustrated my point enough yet, let me clarify it further here:

The Ignorant Parent is one whom which has bought a pet for their child, and expected the child to give a d*** knowing very well that at any age. An attention span can change from over a 7 year period to. Oh, how's *3.56* seconds sound?

You know what though, let's see how an ignorant parent thinks:
It starts merely with a series of complex brain wave patterns such as so:










Yes, it starts gradually, then advertising pushes further the belief that being ignorant to your children for 'proper development' helps.

You have no idea how many times I wish to see a ****** on the street walking around to imagine that somewhere, somehow, when they were a child that they should have been beat senseless for doing something stupid and getting away with it.

Yeah, stealing a police car and joy riding in it to only to get your internet taken away for a week doesn't sound very justified to me.

So let's push the envelop further here:

This is a diagram of how the mind shall look for an "ignorant" parent.










Labeled in the picture is how the "ignorant" Parents mind perceives things.

Let's seek further here;

We have a space for Unknown, reserved for my theory that "If in the most unlikliest of events. You'd be a f***ing Moron, seriously, did your mother smother crack cigarettes made of whoppers and liquor and half a cellphone at birth while trying to drive!?"

And we have the space reserved for Un-consistent thinking. I wonder.. I just wonder what that means. Oh, let's take a short hand look.
*
"If in the most unlikliest of events. You'd be a f***ing Moron, seriously, did your mother smother crack cigarettes made of whoppers and liquor and half a cellphone at birth while trying to drive!?"*

Seriously, think logically before you give your children a pet! There is a good statistic written somewhere unknown, as if law. And it quotes "Children and pets, DON'T MIX"

It's kind of like making a sandwich with razor blades, broken glass, and a banana.

It's a good intention. I mean, you're hungry right? You DID say you'd eat anything for $5.

Where along the lines of "Common Sense" and "WHAT THE f*** ARE YOU SMOKING!?" didn't you see a line?

Let's be blunt here shall we?










Honestly, you're children aren't ready for pets. At any age, only, and this is honestly a big thing. ONLY get a pet if it's a family pet, something everyone can take care of and come together on, I can't tell you enough how many times I've heard of a pet dieing, being harmed, or mistreated or even physically/mentally abused because the person it was with, was unfit to take care of it.

Question: So, what does an unfit person look like?
Answer: You and I.

Question: But what is an unfit person?
Answer: Anyone that can't take care of their pet properly; This includes:
*Not knowing first off what pet you have.
*Not knowing the sex of the pet for several years.
*Not taking the pet to the vet for crazed reasons;
"Because my dog ran away" is the only excuse that makes sense, because they probably ran away to get to somewhere safe.

*Not taking care of your pets
*Not knowing what to feed your pets
*Feeding the wrong thing to your pets multiple times because it's cheaper.



Seriously, I can't get over this.

Mistreating an animal is one thing, Mistreating it to the point of abusing it is another.

It's disgusting to see how arrogant and ignorant some people can be to their children, their childrens pets, or myths.

Take care, learn well. And remember what I said; "If in the most unlikliest of events. You'd be a f***ing Moron, seriously, did your mother smother crack cigarettes made of whoppers and liquor and half a cellphone at birth while trying to drive!?"

This will be the second time I've edited this,s o please note this:

I'm sorry I have edited it twice, but I'm an idiot x.x

You see, I must digress, this does connect to twitchs last article.

You see, twitch mentioned about her gaining of nezumi, some people can be really aggressive and terrible pet owners. But there are people like twitch, (And I'm certain there are many others) that can take a pet in, nurse it back to health and do it all with a smile.

But it's still the people that screw this all up and really hurt the animal that must be stopped. It's the ignorance and irresponsible behavior that can immediately kill or even neglect pet's terribly.

We need to stand, and make a movement to help these pet's in dire need. It's not OUR responsibility as humans, it's OUR Responsibility as pet owners, soon to be owners, or friends of pet owners.

Something has to be done, and even knowing about what's going on, it's our problem and needs to be taken care of.

Ladies and gentlemen I inquire why we aren't, can't, haven't done much more than stand idly by while people whom are incapable of handling pet's continue to obtain them.

It is in my best interest, that we help our pet friends. And do the best we can to help them.

I.. I can't stress it enough, that, we need to help those in need. Pet's are still in need, whether or not they're considered as family members, they still are.


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## Sparker (Jun 17, 2007)

Wow.


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## simbakitten (Oct 10, 2007)

ok ladada i have to say i appalaud you for all this but u said that *childern and pets DONT MIX" well i have to dissagree with this yes MOST childern and pets dont mix but i am 13 and perfectly capable of taking care of pets, i have 3 cats (wich are supossed to be family pets, but to be truthful only i feed them/cuddle them!) and 2 rats wich i am getting TOMOROW!!! (so exited) and i think that i will take much better care of them than quite a few adults would (hence me bein on a rat forum....). ive done PAGES AND PAGES of research, made the best toys get the best food and found vets in my area wich is alot more than many adults! 

but dont get me wrong...i think that alot of parents are like that and buy pets for there childern to win their approval. anyway thats what i have to say


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

Sounds impressive, Simba....good for you! Unfortunately, my 18 year old isnt nearly as responsible. She kept buying rats and NOT taking care of them and I kept taking them from her until she finally stopped - also I gave petco a 'donation' and her pic and asked them to quit selling to her.

bleh


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

Simbakitten, Your case in which someone whom is young, and capable is incredibly rare and is close to nilll for being plausible.

And DFQ_Rat_Luvr, Nice step! You're part of the solution!


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## DFW_Rat_Luvr (Aug 29, 2007)

I try.

I didnt win any points with my kid, but then again, Ive never been into the parent gig to win a popularity contest (its a good thing, too)


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

I think I can agree on the children and pets do not mix thought. I loved the pictures and graphs, by the way, like right out of a PowerPoint presentation, but less boring.

This idea goes back to, what I am going to use the word as, Harm Reduction. Normally it would apply to substance abuse, but I am going to use it here to apply to pets. The root cause of some of this neglect is the lack of harm reduction information available to new pet owners. In the same way that millions die from drug overdose that would not have had there been some basic information available to them, millions of pet buyers do not have the basic information presented to them at the time of their buying the pet. Parents, adults, children, anyone with money and a desire for a "pocket pet", are not being told by the pet shops around the world that rats are not maintenance free pets. They require WORK, lots of it, time, plenty of that, and CARE. The dog and cat culture of america has forgotten that there are many other animals that show a range of emotions that can be equal, or greater than, those classic family pets.

Harm reduction is a concept that I think can positively carry over to many things, and it would certainly save lives, both human and animal alike. That is my approach to ignorance: education. Education should be what is demanded, not litigation, or criminalization.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

I say we start a way of supporting our furry/feathered friends, we need to get the point across that they're not just pet's they're actually part of life too!

So I suggest we make, deliver and somehow manage to bring pamphlet's into stores where they sell pets.

And in an attempt try and strike a deal with the pet store owners and such to have these pamphlets handed out on the purchase of a pet, or consideration of being a pet owner.

It seems kind of drastic to do, but we definitely need to rise attention to the arrogant ignorance that people often use when making a decision.
(not saying all, just a good majority of people some times)


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i think that was something the SPCA was supposed to do. at least it seems like something they should be doing. 

in anycase that's a great idea. yet, here's the problem. we are not an organization and most organizations for the welfare of animals and pets often gets ignored and runs into more walls then is reasonable when trying to promote proper pet care. how are we, just a bunch of random people throughout the world going to get the pet store to listen to us and hand out fliers that could damage their sales? after all, a person that doesn't realize how difficult or expensive an animal really is to keep is more likely to buy that animal then one that has done the reasearch. what's more, what do we have to offer them if they do consent to hand out these fliers? or even allow us to hand out these fliers? 

and that's not even mentioning the costs associated in making fliers. in order for people to take anything in the flier even remotely seriously, it can't just be a quick little print-out on cheap paper. it will need color and pictures to catch their eye. and they will need to be loaded with information but not too full that it is overwhelming, yet not too little as to not have any impact or be quickly forgotten. it also needs to be presented in a way that seems offical. random people without an organization name or at least a collective name are just going to have their fliers thrown out. at the very least we need to have a semblance of authority otherwise we will be ignored. 

i think if we can answer these questions then going ahead the the fliers is feasible and excellent idea but i don't know how to answer the questions myself. the only options i can think of is trying to get SPCA and other rescue organizations to do this as they have the established authority but the more i come in contact with the SPCA the more disappointed i am. for the most part the people are too hardened and burnt out that they just have no hope that anything they can do will change anything. i doubt they would fight very much to get the fliers handed out or put much effort into making them. the other option is to somehow create a new world-wide organization or collective name, but that has a whole slew of new quesitons associated with it. the main one being, how do we do it?


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

what about MENSA?

Plus I'm not promoting hurting their business, I'm promotion that maybe they give away a flier or have a pamphlet in the store that say's "Here's what we know about the pet you're interested in, go HERE: (their site) For more information." And even if they don't have the knowledge, this pamphlet should be given away for free after they buy the pet.

kind of like: "I'd like to buy this puppy" "Okay, that'll be (inital cost), oh, and here, take one of thse pamphlet's. It'll teach you how to take care of your pet properly"

Also, we could do it if we did create our own organization, but that requires volunteers, a help line, a sanction from the government that say's "If they're mistreating the animal, then we have the right to put the animal in a shelter" or "if we get a call, we'd like the authority to investigate it."

In the long run, if we do it, it'll be a lot of work. However, we could help a lot.

we'd need a location too possibly as well.

I could go as far into detail as I wanted about how to set up an organization and bring it to a power of authority through the government and the animal rescue league. I'm not sure if we'd have enough volunteer's though, thats the commitment we'd have to make with, or without volunteers by our sides.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

go get the information. if nothing else we will have if we ever need it. we'll also know a bit better the restictions teh SPCA has and all that. 

i still think the pet stores would be more receptive to someone that has the authority of at least a collective name if not an organization to be accepting fliers to hand out, even if they only do it after the purchase of the animal. 

and again, the issue of the costs to even just make enough fliers to be handed out to everyone that buys an animal at a petstore in all the surrounding pet stores... that can get pretty high. even if you assume a low number like only a 50-100 a day are actually taken. we'll also have to find information on the proper, basic care of each animal that is sold there. that can be a lot of different animals. and of course too, if the store is handing them out they'll want them to be professional looking and glossy. 

i think more information is needed here.


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Well I can tell you this... it is the job of the pet store to educate, not us. The problem is, what is going to get them to do it properly?

I will tell you one more thing, and that is PETA has only done harm to the cause of animal mistreatment. They have done the exact same thing has the RIAA and the MPAA with regards to controlling music and movie piracy. They have only made the situation worse, the desire to rebel greater, and they have tarnished the image of those that they claim to represent.


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## glindella (Sep 9, 2007)

1. Most large chain pet stores do have pamphlets, Petsmart does, Pet Supplies Plus does and I believe Petco does. Its not the stores fault the people refuse to read them.

2. Parents are often more concerned with what their kids want opposed to what is best for the animal. I can not count the number of times I am asked "what pet you can ignore" or "what doesn't require care". Unfortunately we can not refuse a sale unless we have concrete proof they will be mistreating the animal, I do my damnedest to talk people out of things though. No matter how many times I tell the mother that two adult hamsters will fight to the death she will still buy two because they will "look cute playing together" and she has two kids, god forbid she buy two cages. In general people do not listen, I can tell them 500 times the iguana they're buying will out grow a 10 gallon in a few weeks, doesn't change their mind. 

I do think most people do not believe they are mistreating their animals. One girl came in to buy a fish to replace hers that had died. I asked about her set up, she told me she had a 2.5 gal tank with a beta, a corydora, a neon and a guppy. The guppy had died and the tetra was being aggressive. I told her she had to many fish in a small tank. That was when she assured me she knew what she was doing (btw, general rule, 1in. of fish per gallon). Instead of listening to me she bought two more fish and said she was taking the aggressive tetra back to the store. The next day she came back with two dead fish. 

Soooo.... the point of this tangent.... its not always the fault of the pet store


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

Glindella, I have never claimed it to be the pet stores fault. Nor will I ever.

I'm saying, people need the information to understand how to take care of their pets. 

To be blatantly honest, The pet store isn't at any fault. The point in the matter is, is that the pet store would be the keen location for the pamphlets.

to Answer Yashu as well: 

I can see what you're saying, but I still think we need at least an order in which will be printed on the pamphlets there at the pet stores which say something along the lines of: "If you know of a pet in abuse, please contact" then our number. That way we could send an investigator in the area. *Assuming we take it that route*

And finally, to answer twitch.

yes, there is a need for money on this, and pamphlets can be really easy to design, if you know what you're doing and can be a graphical artist.

But yes, the money is needed for all of this; My proposal, assuming it could be feasible, would be to get in contact with the government at least. Then branch from there and see how far we could do this.

Of course we'd have to go over legal matters and rules of legislation which also include search warrants for homes.

We'd be the K9 Rescue unit (A play on words instead of the Canine Rescue Unit) under a portion of the police department and the animal rescue league. 

We'd be in charge of taking pets from unfit homes to the rescue league.

Or even we could branch with them.

And I am seeing the whole portion behind this, that it is a lot of work, and it's not just something that can be done out of the blue without money or authority in that sense. Which is why (as you said) we need much much more information on what we're able to do and how we're able to do it.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

if the pet store didn't sell animals there wouldn't be as big a problem like this. and if the pet store refused to sell animals to misinformed people that would help as well. also, have the employees actually know what they are talking about would be good. there are some that know quite a bit that just HAPPEN to work in a pet store but for most its just a job for now. too often people will ignore a person that actually knows what they are talking about because the pet store said something else (i've actually banged my head on the wall during one such conversation due to massive amounts of frustration). 

i'm not saying its always the fault of the store the pets go with the wrong people but there is certainly a lot more that they could be doing to help prevent that from happening a bit more. 

but still, even if all the pet stores in the world were absolute gold and did everything right we'd still have people neglecting and abusing their animals. not all animals that end up in bad situations come from shelters or pet stores. i've never gone to a shelter for a cat. i've actually picked one up directly from the street (minion is her son, we had to find another home for her as she was a very real danger to the rats and could not stand sesshoumaru-my resident cat). my mother pulled my first cat out of a tied up kitchen catcher bag in a dumpster when she was about 5-6 weeks old. heck, hamsters are dumped on curbs and in salvation army bins (i've heard of rats being left in the donated cages as well). you can get animals without being screened VERY easily. we can only hope that they find good homes too but realistically that's rare. 

heck people breed animals purposely for fighting and training fighters (bred to die by being hobbled then torn apart). and then there are the people that STEAL animals for fur and for bait and for just plain maliciousness. there's the real problem. its these people that drag the general sentiment of animal welfare down. 

and do you know who it all really started with. where it got really bad for them and has not been able to overcome. its bloody antiquated lazy decartes! just about everything he ever said about everything has been disproved yet his self-interested sentiment that animals are only automona, fleshy robots without feelings even as base as the sense of pain has persisted. he made this declaration merely so that they could experiment on animals. previous to this animals were god's creatures and so had souls, and so could not be experimented on. sure they were still worked to death and underfed but so were their human counterparts of the time. when decartes made this statement people wanted to believe and they did. they started doing all sorts of nasty experiments on the animals, like skinning them alive just to see how the skin was connected, in fact very little concern was given to the animals. they would do anything they wanted and the screaming and thrashing of the animal who seemed to be in pain was just a result of their programming so to speak, they didn't ACTUALLY feel the pain as we do though; THEY suddenly didn't have souls. some of us may not be as harsh in our belief there now but that is because they did experiments on the animals just to see if the actually feel pain or not. its ridiculous but it still is affecting our legislature, heck, our general thinking!

a little while ago there was a discussion on this forum, one populated by advent pet lovers and wonderful owners, about the california animal welfare act (it was in the lounge if you want to look it up before i find the link for it). the bill was to make it so that by LAW you would have to have your animal spayed or neutered. they add stipulations in place for breeders and working dogs and even for people that wanted "just one litter". in practice this would be problematic simply because it would nearly impossible to police. HOWEVER, that was not the main cause for discourse. the problem most people were having was that no one should tell THEM how to own THEIR pets. well, when we tell people that they need to take their rat off pine because it hurts them we're telling someone what to do. when we get angry at people that let things that nezumi had to endure happen, what's their first defense going to be, assuming they knew better (and on some aspects like pulling off pieces of her tail and making her fight with other animals they had to have known better)? - "its my pet, no one can tell me what i can and can not do with my property!" see how decartes thinking even pollutes OUR minds. 

ugh, i could rant on forever and give so many more examples but i think my point here is already made. the issue with animal abuse goes much further then the pet stores, goes further then screening adopters. its core is right down into EVERYONE'S thinking, even us, the devoted pet lovers are infected with it.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

That it does twitch, and since there isn't a way to police each and all of us (especially since it's near impossible now) We're only left with the assumption that they have to go to a good home just to feel better inside.

If it were a true decision, we wouldn't have animals as pets, but somehow we're allowed to. I mean, we were never meant to control animals, merely work with/along-side them. If in fact that were the true proposal for animals.

I mean, I think back to a man hunting with a dog. And he cooks the meat and shares some with his Hunting dog.

Where as instead, now he's tying his dog up, then taking his dog inside to eat whenever the dog needs it.

Little affection is shared in the newer more modern look at it in most cases. And unfortunately, thats how often enough it's played.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

but what i was saying was that we need to change the thinking of not just one section of people that pay for their pets, not even the people that get them for free but those that treat their pets as family too. we have to change the thinking of EVERYONE! and pamphlets handed out in the pet stores will not be enough. sure it will be a start, but in some places its already started. we'll need to go further, we'll need to get to everyone and the hardest to get to will be the animal lovers because they won't think anywhere in their thinking is wrong and if they think they are right why would they listen to anything? the next hardest to get will be the ones that are doing everything wrong but think they are well within their rights. the ones that simply don't know better will be a breeze if we can get them to listen. but once we get to everyone, then there will be real change. 

mind you, look how long it took to abolish slavery as much as it has been and how long it took women to get the back-handed rights that they have under the glass ceiling, we'll not even get into basic rights of everyone when it comes to health care or go into minorities and aborginals. people love to hate. 

its rather a daunting task. i'm really not sure how you change the thinking of an entire culture....


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

If Al Gore can do it, so can we. We're going to need funding, but we can.

Come to think of it, if we brought a good detailed explanation, a good slide show, a few short videos and a stellar presentation. We could very well bring the idea to any pet organization that we find and try and get some help from them to raise awareness


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

It's the curse of the small animal, or just the curse of not being a dog or a cat in the USA.

If you even THINK something bad about a dog or a cat, you can be arrested on animal cruelty charges... 

We eat animals that are sacred to other people, not many see a problem with eating beef, but just look at a dog the wrong way and look out.

Rats are sacred to some: http://www.wolfstad.com/2006/04/the-rat-temple-of-rajasthan/

That is not the point though... Small animals are seen as maintenance free pets for children. "Training pets" if you will... Practice for the "big day" of getting a dog or a cat. My rats are smarter than most dogs and cats, but damned if I would ever be able to convince 99% of the people around here. Pigs are smarter than dogs and cats, yet we have no problem eating those by the millions.

It is a culture thing. How do you stem the tide of a culture of millions of boneheads?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

exactly! how do you change the minds of an entire culture?


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## glindella (Sep 9, 2007)

Kill them and start over? ::looks for keys to steam roller::


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## Sparker (Jun 17, 2007)

heh-heh...


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

We change minds, on certain subjects. I mean, we don't have to be so drastic as to say, stop eating meat period because it comes from an animal. 

I mean, on the same argument, I don't plan on eating a rat any time soon. 
Unless however it is for pure survival in the most unlikeliest of scenarios.


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## yashu (Sep 14, 2007)

Rats will have their day when humans eventually either destroy themselves through war, or a mass global extinction event, like a meteor crash. Other than the rare temple in India, and aside from their place on the Chinese calendar, rats are probably going to be just rats, for a long while to come.

As an outcast myself, I can say that there is a certain amount of respect that I have for them, that I would not, if they were treated like dogs and cats. Counterintuitive, I know, but that is the way that I am.

How often are things taken for granted here in this country? You may owe your respect for them, in part to the fact that they are not, usually, taken for granted here. It is another mixed blessing, and a reminder of the counterintuitive nature of the world itself, and how we, as humans, perceive it from our point at the top of the food chain.


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## ladada2001 (Sep 23, 2007)

The only thing I see greater as myself on the food chain as. Is the animal that will eat another, and be eaten by a stronger animal some day.


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