# Middle-aged Rat Brothers Suddenly Cage Fighting BAD - Help!



## EminenceFront (Feb 20, 2009)

I've had my darling rat brothers for a year now and they've lived together from day one. For the longest time, Tony (the smaller of the two) was very submissive to Ray. They scrapped a lot and Tony always submitted to him and they groomed each other and slept beside one another and everything was great.

Recently, Tony's beefed up (not sure why or how) and is almost the same size as Ray. They seem to scrap a lot more now and Tony doesn't just submit anymore.

*Three nights ago they got in the worst fight of their lives. * Fur-flying, cage-smashing, screaming all-out brawl. When my roommate and I pulled the two apart, Ray had blood on his fur and Tony had blood running out of his mouth, he seemed to have broken a tooth as well. Tony spent the night traumatized, and Ray seemed fairly normal. 

*Now, when I put them together in the cage, Tony attacks Ray mercilessly.* Screaming, horrible fights. We've had to separate them entirely (very sad because we recently got a young rat we've been trying to introduce them to. Now none of them have any playmates except for free time). 

Out of the cage, they seem normal. PLEASE help, we are both very distraught. The two boys have never, ever been like this. They were really loving brothers.


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## steffiez (Nov 24, 2009)

Maybe they have become territorial? 
Two of my rats have to live in their cages alone (don't worry rat lovers, they're extremely happy because are they rarely in their cages) because they get territorial, (my albino actually trys to kill the others) yet when we put them all in the play pin they are fine.
If you play with your rats for hours each day and let them play with eachother outside of the cages, then i'm sure they'll be fine.. my rats are only in their cages when i'm at school and when i'm sleeping and they're always happy. Eyes bulging out of their little heads and everything.
Hope this helped a little.


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## holidayincambodia (Nov 10, 2009)

That is strange, I have never had a problem like that.
It sounds to me like Tony finally realised that he is big enough to finally show Ray who is boss.

How big is the cage you keep the two in, do you have any pictures of it?

There is a good chance that they have obtained a "This cage ain't big enough for the both of us." mentality.
I would definately say a bigger cage is worth trying. 
This is actually a very common problem, my vet says it is due to the Rat Cage Calculator not beingquite accurate enough on an indvidual scale.

Then again, some rats are just cage agressive and don't want anyone near their home.
However, that doensn't explain why Ray and Tony would be fighting if they have been together the whole time.


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## EminenceFront (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't have any pictures of the cage, but it's the largest one I could find, four levels. I'm so bemused as to why it happened so suddenly. They're out of the cage a lot too. How can I tell if its a cage problem (a new cage would be expensive I assume) or a general territorial-aggression problem?


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

How old are they?


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## EminenceFront (Feb 20, 2009)

A little less than a year and a half.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

EminenceFront said:


> We've had to separate them entirely (very sad because we recently got a young rat we've been trying to introduce them to. Now none of them have any playmates except for free time).


I wonder if the introductions of the new young rat have triggered this? Where did you do the introductions and how did they go?


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## EminenceFront (Feb 20, 2009)

The little rat is still in his own cage, now, because of the new aggression. But I introduced them a couple weeks ago and the little rat became very afraid of both rats. He actually hyperventilated once because he was so afraid of them, so whenever they approached him, he would attack them and run away. Since then, we've introduced them all on neutral ground quite often and they're interacting normally. The little guy gets flipped, but no more fighting or fear.


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## EminenceFront (Feb 20, 2009)

Also interesting to note is that outside of the cage, Ray is still showing signs of dominance. He "bites" Tony, who submits and gets groomed. INSIDE the cage, it's a whole different story.


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## radical (Jan 15, 2007)

I had a similar problem a couple of months ago. I have four rats who have been living together for over a year.. and one night Murphy and Siefer got in a horrible fight and I had to separate the two from each other, and from the other two boys. Siefer was injured, but I'm happy to say he healed up perfectly and is now back in the cage with the other two boys. I've tried intros again with Murphy and the other three boys, but it's not going well. I've been trying for about three months now. Whenever any other rat is near him period, Murphy backs against the wall and gets all poofy and angry looking. He hasn't lashed out again, but I don't feel comfortable putting him back together with the other three. My cage is a Fiesty Ferret cage that is pretty large and has plenty of toys, hammocks, and houses for them.. 

Anyways, Murphy is in his own cage now which is pretty large (rat calculator says 5 rats) with plenty of toys. He gets a lot of free range time as well. I just don't know what to tell you. I'm considering getting my males neutered from now on, but I can't find a vet in my area who will do it for anywhere less than $100.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

When they started to fight, had you the new little boy in your home already? A new rat in their territory can set off dominance issues. It worked out before because you had a clear dominant boy and a clear subordinate, and now you have 2 rats wanting to be dominant. the addition of the 3rd boy might actually settle it all down _eventually_. then you can have an Alpha, a Beta and a Subordinate (baby).


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