# Neutering



## magic_carrot (Jul 26, 2014)

My two male rats have recently started fighting.They were good friends before but as the little one gets older, he picks on the older one and the older one kinda kicks his ass.They don't seem to get hurt, no bites till now but I was wondering if neutering would make this behavior better.Also would there be a change in their behavior?


----------



## Zabora (Jun 8, 2014)

It could be just dominance displays and yes getting them fixed may help however its no garentee that it will work. Rule of thumb is no blood no worries.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Try to get them out of the cage and referee the aggressive play... A certain amount of fighting is normal and rats do get scratched and heal pretty quickly... Human participation helps.

Neutering is hit or miss... Honestly I think it's the trauma of the surgery that knocks the wind out of the boys as much as the hormone reduction... Hands on human owners can often help rats understand fighting is wrong. Most of us just shout stop fighting and things get quiet.

Best luck


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

I disagree that neutering is hit or miss. I've neutered literally hundreds of rats, many with aggression issues, and it has never NOT helped. Neutering is a rather simple surgery and does not traumatize rats. I'd be queen of rattie PTSD ward if it did.

However, if they are not drawing blood, you may not have to neuter - but if their bickering is excessive certainly consider it if you have a good, experienced vet.


----------



## Malarz (Sep 7, 2014)

Blackthorn, do you spay females at your center? If so, is it many? And have there been any issues with any of them post-op?


----------



## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

All 5 of my rats are from blackthorn's rescue, 2 of them are female. Navi had a funny raised scar for about two weeks after I adopted her, but that solved itself. I've had nothing but good experiences with spaying and neutering.


----------



## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

*a raised scar from the spay. Her sister, Midna, healed very fast, but Navi took slightly longer.


----------



## new_rattie_mommy (Aug 24, 2014)

I had my two boys neutered cuz I had the same problem with the smaller of the two having a more dominant personality so he constantly picked dominance fights but got beat by the bigger one. They have never drawn blood either but it can be very annoying to deal with them constantly tackling each other. he also was a little nippy with me and I was hoping that would be a bonus of the surgery that he may not nip me anymore. He also had a marking problem which I definitely didn't want to deal with on my floor during playtime. It doesn't need to be an absolute last resort procedure. It was not by any means dire that I get it done but I could afford it so I did it. It's not by any means traumatizing, the incision is tiny and heals quick. The only thing is to watch for chewing and mine luckily had no problem with that. I didn't even have to clean it or anything. The first 2 or 3 days they are sore and my bigger boy had a harder time with it where I knew he was in quite some pain so I got them some pain meds and they did wonderful after that. the meds were really only necessary for the first 2-3 days and they walk funny so that's how you can tell they're sore and they sleep a lot but they were healed by around a week. It was no big deal at all. I just cut back their playtime to about 20 mins the first day, then 30 the next couple day, then 45 and so on. You feel bad for them for the first day or 2 cuz obviously you don't want them to hurt but it's by no means traumatizing. And it absolutely will chill your rats out with the fighting. It worked immediately for mine and he no longer marks or nipped me anymore. It actually turned my bigger rat completely submissive towards the other and he never starts play fights and always gives in immediately to my little guy. The little one still play fights but he is very hyper and its just playing and not nearly as often. Trust me it will make your life easier but still expect them to play fight occasionally. I think all rats do that.


----------



## Malarz (Sep 7, 2014)

Teshump, thanks for reassuring words! I am still on the fence about spaying. These are my first rats. I'm probably more scared than experienced rat owners.


----------



## Tesumph (Aug 12, 2014)

No problem! (Lol teshump-- never heard that one before xD) Out of my 9 rats, 7 have been from blackthorn's rescue and were all fixed. I know some think fixing rats is the easy way out of problems, but I love it. My three boys and two girls love each other, none of them scent mark, and I rarely if ever have squabbles.


----------



## thenightgoddess (Apr 2, 2014)

I am getting my aggressive boy neutered soon He has attacked me and his cage mate. I found a place that can do everything for $160 I am saving $40 a month right now(I have $50 right now) and my husband said that once I get $100 we can just go ahead to do it.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Malarz said:


> Blackthorn, do you spay females at your center? If so, is it many? And have there been any issues with any of them post-op?


Yep, I spay and neuter every rat that is healthy enough to do so. Let's see, since Nov 2012 I have taken in 163 rats, and I have had just over 50 females spayed with a few with very minor suture reactions, one more serious complication that was resolved, and one death resulting from complications (and this was not my regular vet who did the last two). I would have to dig up my records as my prior incarnation (HVRR) but I would say roughly 600 spays - with a handful of complications and 3 or 4 deaths. Considering these are/were rats of all ages and backgrounds, I am pretty sold on the benefits vs. risk ratio.  I have been very fortunate to have skilled, experienced vets.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Blackthorn,

I'm thinking you're neutering and spaying your rats to keep them from reproducing not because you've had so many rats that couldn't be handled or managed behaviorally. Although I'm not entirely on board with that idea, I do understand and respect the practice. 

But, I've found that there seem to be certain rat owners that seem to have lots of behavioral issues that "require" neutering and other's that never have issues with their rats that require surgery. I don't think this is a matter of misfortune in choosing rats, but rather in how much time and consistent training the owner invests in their rats. 

There are certain cases where certain rats have hormonal imbalances that can only be surgically addressed, but these aren't common from my experience. Most issues can be resolved with time effort and consistent work. 

Here we have different opinions, I do see neutering to correct behavioral issues more extreme than proper socialization and training and therefore not my first option... 

Some time back we did an extreme immersion with a rat that had been neutered, his problems stemmed from improper handling... not abuse or neglect... lets just call it miscommunication between his human and himself... The neuter didn't help at all, perhaps even made things worse... it was a difficult immersion, but after he got on the right track with his owner he became a real heart rat.

Now, I've had a few surgeries in my time, some went pretty well other's went sideways in a big way. But I don't think I can recall any that weren't traumatic to one extent or another and I knew why I was being sliced and diced and gave partially informed consent beforehand.

Neutering may be the correct course of action in some cases and wrong in others... the most interesting debates are those that have different but valid opinions represented. It's easy to look for the right answer, but often it comes down to the best resolution for the situation at hand. And in defense of neutering, given a good vet with lots of experience a healthy rat and a bit of luck, most rats survive the surgery and I've only heard of a very few cases where the surgery made things worse. But to be clear, those were cases that didn't involve hormonal aggression in my opinion to start with and things may have gotten worse without the surgery anyway... On the other hand if you don't have a good vet and your issues are something you can solve with proper socialization and training and you don't have the resources to invest.... well then the formula for what is best changes again.


----------



## Malarz (Sep 7, 2014)

Thank you! That gives me an idea of how safe it actually is (if done by an experienced vet). I am not thinking about spay because of behavior issues, or risk of accidental pregnancy, but rather as a health insurance. I have read a lot, and spaying is supposed to greatly reduce tumor risks in the future. If that procedure was to prolong their lives even by a few months, and - what is more - make their lives healthy and comfortable ones, that's worth the risk.
Money is a whole different story. A good small animal vet quoted me for about $250-300 per each... 

Tesumph, sorry for mangling your name lol


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Certainly that's not the primary reason I neuter, but there have been plenty of instances where neutering was absolutely necessary out of the many rats I've had neutered. The potential problem with waiting and working on issues is that if you wait too long, those behaviors can become learned/habit and a neuter may not be as effective and it will take longer to help.

"But, I've found that there seem to be certain rat owners that seem to have lots of behavioral issues that "require" neutering and other's that never have issues with their rats that require surgery."

I would not say that is necessarily due to time and training. Temperament (as well as health issues) can vary drastically by area. Some people have more pet stores and backyard breeders pumping out aggressive males than others. A rescue I know in Indiana has to neuter tons of her males (she doesn't neuter unless she has to, but a huge number of the males in her area are hormonally aggressive). I almost never saw PT when I lived in Michigan but dealt with a ton of CHF - in other areas, they are rife with PT and rarely see CHF. In your area rats with hormonal imbalances are not common; in mine, I assure you, they are (and I would not say it was due to a lack of time/training on my part).

Certainly if a rat's aggression stems from fear and/or due to abuse/mishandling, neutering is not going to be the magic bullet. There are many types of aggression and they often need to be dealt with in different ways. However, hormonal aggression is quite common, and even with other issues it can help. For example, there are some rats that are not at all aggressive, but are so ragingly high strung due to their hormones they are absolutely on edge all the time, often freak out at any stimuli, and other rats have a tough time tolerating their reactivity. Those rats need to be neutered just as much as the hormonally aggressive ones.

I have personally never encountered a situation where neutering made things worse. For that matter, I have never seen neutering not at least help with behavior issues, either.

I don't think you can compare the human experience with rat experience. That knowledge can go a long way towards generating trauma, after all. Rats aren't capable of understanding what will happen when they get anesthetized, nor the procedure details or possible issues. While rats are like humans in many ways, anthropomorphism to an excessive extent is sometimes even more damaging than people who refuse to consider the similarities between "us and them."

I fully admit I am heavily biased in favor of neutering - that is due to my (extremely positive) direct experiences and of those I've seen with other rat owners over many years. I admit it gets frustrating to me to see people absolutely refuse to neuter in situations that clearly warrant it, and their animals do often suffer as a result. Some people may be able to get some rats to come around without neutering in some cases - but again, it really depends on the type of issues. The most common by far is hormonal aggression, followed by fear aggression. The kicker is that sometimes neutering will help a great deal with fear aggression, too - and sometimes it won't.

"But to be clear, those were cases that didn't involve hormonal aggression in my opinion to start with" - I agree with you, expecting a neuter to solve ALL types of situations is faulty, but in most cases the behavioral cues are extremely important to determine whether neutering is the primary solution or not.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Malarz said:


> Thank you! That gives me an idea of how safe it actually is (if done by an experienced vet). I am not thinking about spay because of behavior issues, or risk of accidental pregnancy, but rather as a health insurance. I have read a lot, and spaying is supposed to greatly reduce tumor risks in the future. If that procedure was to prolong their lives even by a few months, and - what is more - make their lives healthy and comfortable ones, that's worth the risk.
> Money is a whole different story. A good small animal vet quoted me for about $250-300 per each...
> 
> Tesumph, sorry for mangling your name lol


It really does make a huge difference in girls' health and longevity. In theory, with a good breeder with very well developed and tracked lines, many of the common issues such as mammary tumors can be reduced through selective breeding, but in unknown lines or, let's face it, with MOST breeders out there, spaying is an extremely good idea. I'd rather one surgery when a rat is young and healthy, than potentially many later on when she may not be as good a surgical candidate. Since the likelihood of females developing mammary tumors, uterine issues, etc. is extremely high, and because spaying also helps decrease the risk of PT which is fatal even with treatment, I will always encourage people to have their girls spayed as long as they have a good vet to do it. I also have assisted with many a rat spay and seeing the frequency of uterine pathology (mainly tumors on ovaries and uterine mycoplasma) has further cemented my opinion.

Fortunately, it is becoming more common a procedure... when I was a kid, no one spayed/neutered pet rabbits, and now it's pretty much the norm. I hope spaying/neutering rats will follow along in that vein. I know I can be rather strong on my spay/neuter opinions, but it's not without cause.


----------



## Malarz (Sep 7, 2014)

A few years ago my gf's hamster developed a tumor. He was miserable for the last few months, and apparently suffered a lot. If I had not had that experience, maybe I would not be thinking about it now in relation to rats. I am just scared that this is a complete surgery, with anesthesia and all that. Is 6-8 month old female (in good health as far as I can tell) still young enough for spaying in your opinion?


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I think running a rescue is likely to artificially inflate the number of problem rats one sees as folks that get rid of rats often have neglected or abused them or perhaps have made unfortunate adoptions of rats with preexisting issues they can't deal with. I suspect that most folks don't give up their best furry friends for adoption unless there's no other option.

That said oddly I think we agree that different methods are more useful for different issues. I think there are also cases where either method behavioral or surgical will or won't solve the problem almost interchangeably. 

I can pretty much recall a time when neutering was the only recommended method for dealing with certain issues, but I think that we have made some pretty major strides in better socialization and rehabilitation that have proven successful in many cases where neutering was once considered the only option. I think I found myself intuitively opposed to the one size fits and neuter them all approach... but not necessarily as troubled by neutering based on situational need. 

There was for a time a school of thought that had it that all wild male rats needed to be neutered preemptively. Which has proven completely untrue when the rats were socialized young enough and properly bonded to caring humans who were committed to properly socializing them. And I might add that few of the wild rats that were neutered and not properly socialized ever became decent pets when you follow the historic threads or reports on the subject. In this case I think progress has been away from neutering. And I feel that's a good overall trend.

I have pondered the point that waiting might make things worse... and phrased that way, I suppose I have to agree. But I do believe that intervention through socialization or rehabilitation isn't the same as waiting and isn't likely to make things worse... in fact it's far more likely to improve things. Through immersion we've fixed lots of rats that formerly would have had to be neutered... it isn't always easy but the results are actually very good. Fearful rats are an issue and aren't easy to fix, but we've made significant progress with fearful biting and fearful rats in general. And extreme immersion with aggressively biting rats is ugly at best, but the results have been remarkably good.

So, all of our female rats that got older have gotten mammary tumors. I have looked into spaying, but for the most part the tumors appeared at or beyond the end of the girl's reproductive life and therefore weren't necessarily related to their reproductive hormones. I do agree there are cases where younger rats get mammary tumors and these can be prevented surgically, but I think that the silver bullet folks are looking for to prevent mammary tumors simply isn't there yet. In the case of the particular source I have obtained my rats from... the tumors pretty much coincide with the end of the rats reproductive cycle... one might almost predict that spaying might actually accelerate the onset of the tumors. As you mentioned certain issues are strain specific, if I had rats from a population where the tumors were early onset, I suppose I might agree with spaying more strongly... assuming I could overcome the local lack of good, reasonably priced vets. 

In my area, rat surgeries start at about $300.00 and average about $600.00 soup to nuts. If the animal has to be transported for overnight care to the overnight vet you can pretty much double the price. And the consult for the world class small animal surgeon in our state is $150.00 with a sticker price of $1100.00 to $1500.00 for a surgery. I'm not sure if a traditional cost benefit equation should be used when we are talking about our best furry friends, but it is never the less relevant as it comes down to paying the rent or the mortgage for some folks. A $150.00 spaying for a female rat that comes from a population of rats that gets mammary tumors young seems a very reasonable option, a $1500.00 spaying for a rat that comes from a population that gets post reproductive mammary tumors seems counter-intuitive (especially when you live in an area where cancer is the number one killer of nonsmokers among humans). 

I hope we can agree that there are different options and better choices for different rats in different situations. I don't expect to agree on every or indeed many cases... but as long as both opinions are represented fairly I'm good with the discussion.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Malarz said:


> A few years ago my gf's hamster developed a tumor. He was miserable for the last few months, and apparently suffered a lot. If I had not had that experience, maybe I would not be thinking about it now in relation to rats. I am just scared that this is a complete surgery, with anesthesia and all that. Is 6-8 month old female (in good health as far as I can tell) still young enough for spaying in your opinion?


Absolutely. She's at a great age for spaying. I spay girls even up to 2 years old if they're healthy enough.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

"I think running a rescue is likely to artificially inflate the number of problem rats one sees as folks that get rid of rats often have neglected or abused them or perhaps have made unfortunate adoptions of rats with preexisting issues they can't deal with. I suspect that most folks don't give up their best furry friends for adoption unless there's no other option."

Perhaps, but you'd be surprised how many people DO give up their best furry friends, just fyi. The majority of rats surrendered to me are not problem rats behaviorally. But, yes, sometimes people surrender because of aggression/behavioral problems that they can't or won't handle, for sure.

"That said oddly I think we agree that different methods are more useful for different issues."

Certainly.


"There was for a time a school of thought that had it that all wild male rats needed to be neutered preemptively."

I have no experience with wild rats, though I have noticed that it seems folks in the UK have a better success rate with taming down wildies than we do in the US.

When the problem really isn't lack of socialization or fear, but simply raging hormones, all the socialization in the world won't do any good. These rats are generally not afraid. I see so many people giving up their rats when a neuter would completely solve their problem, and it upsets me. Some of my best rats were raging terrors that just needed a neuter to become sane again.

"I have looked into spaying, but for the most part the tumors appeared at or beyond the end of the girl's reproductive life and therefore weren't necessarily related to their reproductive hormones. "

I disagree with this - the reason they develop mammary tumors IS due to hormones, even if they show later in life. I mean, that's basically the whole point in spaying, to prevent them from popping up, at ANY age. Spaying prevents mammary tumors to a huge degree, whether they are going to pop up early or late. Whether people decide to spay or not is their choice, sometimes the risk is not worth it (say if you do not have a good vet) but it is a fact that spaying decreases the risk of mammary tumors developing later on. Hardly any of the (many) rats I have had spayed have developed them, and those that did were often spayed later in life - but tumor growth and recurrence fortunately are generally slowed/decreased so it was still beneficial (not to mention removing the risk of uterine/ovarian issues). (http://www.northstarrescue.org/pet-care-information/pet-rat-care/107-spaying-neutering-rats has references at the bottom) Spaying does not increase the rate of tumor development. There is no evidence of this anywhere. Mammary tumors are driven by estrogen and spaying removes that source of constant estrogen. There is some evidence that a bred unspayed female has less risk than an unbred unspayed female, but obviously suggesting everyone breed their rats to try to prevent tumors is a bad idea.


Certainly if you are unfortunate to be in an area of obscene veterinary costs, that will impact decisions. However, spaying can often be a money SAVER in those situations. I know one vet in my area that charges $300-400 for a tumor removal and substantially less for a spay, for example. If one does not find later life mammary tumors to be a concerning issue for them, that will influence their decisions as well. Personally I want to eliminate the risk of tumors, uterine issues, and PT as much as possible, because the cost/benefit ratio falls extremely to the benefit side. Other people may not have that be the case, but for many more folks it is simply a lack of education and understanding.

"I hope we can agree that there are different options and better choices for different rats in different situations. I don't expect to agree on every or indeed many cases... but as long as both opinions are represented fairly I'm good with the discussion."

Of course!


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There appears to be a correlation between having offspring and having fewer late in life mammary tumors. To that effect I actually once tried to adopt a very charming high white rat that was living in a pet shop as a wet nurse... It was a horrible life for her but the store didn't sell their wet nurses... ( I have a fondness for high whites, but don't like to buy them from breeders as to not promote their breeding. And their my only exception to raising pups from a very young age.) I might add though that I recall two or three wet nurse rats of the more common strains that had mammary tumors still nursing at the pet shop. Having a litter of pups is definitely not a guarantee of not getting mammary tumors, pardon the double negative.

I'll give a certain credence to there being a benefit of spaying very young before the mammary tissue develops, less developed mammary tissue should mean less mammary tumors. I like theories that make logical sense. And I agree with the relationship between female hormones and young onset mammary tumors... but once a rat is through it's reproductive cycle, it's my understanding it's hormones crash, similar to humans... Once the female hormones are out of the picture you would think that the crone rat and the spayed rat should be at about the same risk... unless the elimination/reduction of the hormones actually triggers the tumors... which should put the spayed rat at risk younger. (again the rat that was spayed very young would be still be at an advantage because she never developed the mammary tissue in the first place).

Many years ago... back in the days when I was a psychology major and the clockwork orange debate was still raging and judges were still trying to promote human neutering for violent offenders there was a curious rat study that aggressive behavior and alpha dominance actually increased the subject's hormone level. Strikingly by subordinating the aggressive rat to a higher authority, like a superior alpha rat, the hormones would return to normal. Aggression levels and hormone level are a causation loop. A high school football player on a winning team has higher hormone levels, but if the team is a losing team, you don't see the elevated hormones in the players. Although not widely publicized, mostly for political reasons, this study and it's human counterpart studies put an end to castration in humans to reduce aggressive behavior among repeat offenders. If it were a one way relationship we would be castrating sex offenders today... But as modifying the behavior of the offender actually reduced his hormone levels, prison was deemed the more humane way to achieve the goal... (for better or worse).

Thus... you can reduce hormonal aggression in rats with behavioral methods. Extreme immersion does it all of the time and very successfully... I will add however this can be a very ugly and hazardous process. In wild rat packs alpha rats maintain their status by fending off hormonally aggressive subordinates and once the subordinate is properly cured of his aspirations, his hormones return to normal and he rejoins the pack structure... Similarly alphas that have been dethroned loose their elevated hormone levels and become normal pack members after their reign.

Most hormonally aggressive rats are actually normal, they are just on the high end of the causality loop. Their hormones promote aggressive behavior and their aggressive behavior triggers more hormone release. That's not to say some rats aren't screwed up... A certain other study found that some human offenders continued to be aggressive and violent even after castration... Some aggression and violence isn't linked to hormone levels at all or at least not directly.

Assuming you have a "normal" rats that's on the high end of the hormone/aggression feedback loop neutering will break the cycle, it's clinical and if done properly not very hazardous to the rat or humans, the cost is subject to where you live and what you can afford and a neuter can also destabilize the pack dynamic sometimes leading to other neuters... Extreme immersion is an unpleasant procedure, it carries risks to the humans doing it and it might involve having to work with each and every member of the group to establish correct social order centered around the human alpha... so it can be time consuming, but there's no cost, the success rates are high, the risks to the rat are low and the results are generally very good to exceptional...

Rats that are aggressive, for non hormonal learned behavioral reasons have a better chance with immersion... rats that have certain mental health issues are most likely not fixable by either method.

I really should add one footnote, to be fair to both sides... neither extreme immersion or neutering are set it and forget it measures. Both should be followed up with daily socialization, training and play sessions to maintain a healthy social structure for the rats and a strong emotional bond with the humans. 

I devised extreme immersion as a spin off of immersion theory which I was working on at the time. I like normal immersion, it's usually fast, fun and rewarding for both rat and human, it's a way of building a forever emotional bond and a relationship based on communication. I think it's just a great way to socialize a rat and to develop it's confidence and competence. I actually released the extreme variant first in response to extreme situations involving biting rats that couldn't wait. I'm not sure I ever intended to promote it... it's likely the only rat socialization method that comes with a recommendation that starts with the phrase "armor up", still I prefer it to neutering in most cases both in terms of costs and results... On the other hand, it clearly isn't for everyone.

Lastly... as to people that give up their best furry friends that rely on them for emotional support out of convenience or lost interest... there really should be a surgical procedure to address that issue... preferably a painful one. I train true shoulder rats... my rats are capable of making a lifetime commitment to their human family and staying with us even when they have every opportunity to leave us every time we take them outdoors... one would think humans should be capable of the same level of commitment to their furry family members... I normally don't share opinions that might offend anyone, but animals especially intelligent and emotional ones like rats and dogs deserve to be treated with love, kindness and respect... I agree sometimes unforeseen things come up, and some rats can be difficult to work with for some people, but no bonded animal that loves you should ever be dumped like trash. I suppose I have to accept your experiences as the reality of the situation, but it's unthinkable and unconscionable to me and more than a little disappointing to read... 

I can deal with an aggressive biting rat, but there are some humans that exceed even my patience. It's a shame there's no surgical alternative...


----------



## ooky (Aug 3, 2014)

Blackthorn said:


> It really does make a huge difference in girls' health and longevity. In theory, with a good breeder with very well developed and tracked lines, many of the common issues such as mammary tumors can be reduced through selective breeding, but in unknown lines or, let's face it, with MOST breeders out there, spaying is an extremely good idea. I'd rather one surgery when a rat is young and healthy, than potentially many later on when she may not be as good a surgical candidate. Since the likelihood of females developing mammary tumors, uterine issues, etc. is extremely high, and because spaying also helps decrease the risk of PT which is fatal even with treatment, I will always encourage people to have their girls spayed as long as they have a good vet to do it. I also have assisted with many a rat spay and seeing the frequency of uterine pathology (mainly tumors on ovaries and uterine mycoplasma) has further cemented my opinion.
> 
> Fortunately, it is becoming more common a procedure... when I was a kid, no one spayed/neutered pet rabbits, and now it's pretty much the norm. I hope spaying/neutering rats will follow along in that vein. I know I can be rather strong on my spay/neuter opinions, but it's not without cause.


This is great info, thank you so much for sharing your experience. I had 3 girls several years ago and they were all killed by conditions that the medical literature (for rats) say become MUCH less likely or even totally absent with spaying. One girl got massive mammary tumors. When I took her in to have the removed, the tumors were not removable as they had too much blood supply going to them. She didn't act too upset by them but it was awful to watch her deteriorate, the skin cracking etc. She dies at 2 years 9 months even with that problem. Another girl died of what was likely a pituitary tumor (often also related to hormones) and the third died at 3+ years of pyometra. Right now I have two boys that were neutered 3 weeks ago. Though my husband had sticker shock, I find they already smell great and there is no more scent marking. I introduced the girls 2 days ago and the boys are so nice to them, not that they were aggressive before but they are just the most gentle "uncles" you've ever seen. Since the boys are neutered I don't technically have to spay, but since my last 3 girls I told myself I would do whatever it took to get any future girls I had spayed. They are 5-6 weeks old now. When, in your experience, is the *optimal* time for spaying?


----------



## ooky (Aug 3, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'll give a certain credence to there being a benefit of spaying very young before the mammary tissue develops, less developed mammary tissue should mean less mammary tumors. I like theories that make logical sense. And I agree with the relationship between female hormones and young onset mammary tumors... but once a rat is through it's reproductive cycle, it's my understanding it's hormones crash, similar to humans... Once the female hormones are out of the picture you would think that the crone rat and the spayed rat should be at about the same risk... unless the elimination/reduction of the hormones actually triggers the tumors... which should put the spayed rat at risk younger. (again the rat that was spayed very young would be still be at an advantage because she never developed the mammary tissue in the first place).
> .


No offense, but you can make a lot of guess as to what you find plausible, or you can just look at the very well established existing data based on spayed vs. unsprayed rats. Spaying reduces incidence of mammary tumors and pituitary tumors, which are proven to be estrogen dependent. This does not mean they only occur before menopause, they occur most often after estrogen levels fall but this also does not mean that spayed rats are more susceptible. The key is that the tissue was being acted on by estrogen for 1-2 years before menopause. This is on top of issues such as uterine cancer (can't occur in spayed rats that don't have uteruses) and pyometra. Not only this, but if you do spay and they still develop tumors, on average the rats will get them later in life than the unsprayed rats. I have had a lot of types of pets, and I've never seen such stark and convincing data on the health benefits of spaying than you see in rats. http://www.ratbehavior.org/TumorSpaying.htm


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Optimal is as young as your vet feels comfortable doing the procedure.  With my vets, it has more to do with weight than age. My vets prefer females to be 200 grams, but will do smaller if needed. That tends to be anywhere from 2-5 months depending on the rats. I say it's probably ideal to spay around 3-4 months unless you have super petite girls.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

+1 to ooky's post... while it may seem plausible, it's just not how it works. There is a plethora of definitive scientific literature out there to back it up - I can provide some links (though many are in the link I posted above) if requested.

Well, if we are going to be concerned with degree of potential trauma and unpleasantness, I would have to say neutering would be my pick over what I think you are referring to when you say extreme immersion (admittedly, I have not had time to read through all your pages on the subject in depth), it kind of reminds me of the old notions of "breaking" an animal to get it to obey/submit. Intimidation, physical punishment, etc. and a lot of "dominance based" theory is generally frowned upon by animal behaviorists these days. While it may work for you, I'm not sure you can claim there is no cost to using these methods.

I also think it's a bit of a stretch to compare neutering rats to castrating sex offenders, but YMMV. I am pretty sure the ethics of castrating humans and regarding body autonomy had more to do with the cessation of the practice than a study on rat behavior. 

Rat behavior involves a lot of communication, posturing, and many other means with the intent to avoid a fight if possible. Fighting unnecessarily is not good for the population, it causes injury and attention by predators, and rats are wired to cooperate with their own kind in general - outright aggression/attacking is not pro-social behavior. When wires get crossed and other factors overturn this tendency, it's a different matter, but that is not, so to speak, normal. Humans are largely responsible for this in our pet rats. Less than scrupulous breeders have continued to breed from temperamentally unsound animals and perpetuated unnatural and detrimental genes along the path to their goals of more money, producing pretty colors/varieties, or what have you. Temperament has a sound genetic component and there are many breeders out there where rat aggression in particular runs rampant in their lines.

How much direct experience have you had with aggressive rats (whatever the reason behind the aggression)? And is this primarily rat-rat aggression or rat-human aggression (not the same thing)?


----------



## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in here and tell my own story.

I have three boys, and at a few months old two of them started to fight. It seemed that one of them was obsessed with continuously humping the other most dominant rat, which was causing fights. 
Dominant boy didn't like this behaviour at all, and responded by throwing his weight about. The little humper wouldn't listen or submit as dominant rat wished, and some big flying fur fights were erupting, which led to my humping boy getting injured - needed vets treatment. 

The vet recommended all three to be neutered - or split up the fighting boys.

I was willing to neuter if it was necessary but I wanted to try some of RatDaddys theories before hand. He supported me throughout my attempts to stop my boys fighting and gave me advice.

Immersion wasn't about breaking a rats spirit, dominating them, hurting or punishing them. It is about strengthening your bond. Its a fast track method because you lock yourself and your rats in a small space, with little distractions so that the rats must interact with you rather than hiding under furniture etc. I'm sure RatDaddy will explain better than I.

Anyway, for the past month and a half I have built on that first immersion session with lots of play, love and confident handling. Yes I was assertive and would tell them off if they got into vicious fights, but I never frightened them or hurt them to achieve this. The idea was to take a more confident leadership role - like a parent. I believe rats respond positively to confident handling. 

My rats behaviour started to change. They came to me more willingly, started listening to me, trusting me, bruxing for me and playing with me. They actively sought my company. If they fought and I told them 'No Fighting' they would respond my stopping and coming to me with licks and cuddles. 
There was a few hiccups along the way but slowly the fights have decreased to the point that I rarely need to intervene.

Perhaps when some people have behavoural issues with their rats, they are caused by insecure rats who are not properly socialised with their owners. 
I believe my lack of experience and confidence in handling my rats was causing issues, and by addressing that I have achieved harmony between my boys. I now feel like there is a better understanding between my boys and myself, and a far stronger bond. I'm no longer the treat dispenser/climbing frame but one of the pack.

Immersion was the first step in a process of me changing my own behaviour in order to change how my rats behaved. I can only speak from my own experience, but for me it appears to have worked. Perhaps they grew out of the behaviour, perhaps that was inevitable anyway, and the decrease in fighting after immersion was simply a coincidence. I don't know. 

Either way I don't regret following the immersion guide. 

Had I simply neutered the rats, I wouldn't have the relationship I have with them today.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I wish I could say I've never had issues with rat on rat or rat on human aggression or biting... but that wouldn't be true. No plan of battle survives the original engagement and I've been bit, dealt with serious rat injuries and had my part wild rat shred my neighbor's hand... On the up side, so far I've been able to deal with issues that have come up fairly quickly and raise overall competent, confident, well bonded but independent rats that were well behaved, social and and of overall pleasant disposition. I'd also be lying if I said it was always easy or if some of my rats didn't grow up to be spoiled little brats.... In the end I'm a soft touch and a dad not a mom and I get taken advantage of.


Immersion is a technique that involves communication between two intelligent and emotional beings. For the most part the goal of immersion is to build understanding and trust and confidence. With any normal immersion the communication should be entirely positive and supportive and rewarding for both the human and the rat. The space is limited to maintain contact and interaction and the time is extended so that progress can be made during the session. Rather than lots of short sessions where you are always starting at the same place, you work your way through the bonding process by patient progress and reinforcing communication and positive bonding experiences as you build your relationship... It's rather like a singles cruise where you get to meet someone and spend some time getting to know each other vs speed dating sessions repeated every day.


Extreme immersion is a very specific variant of the approach, it's purpose is exclusively to deal with aggressive and/or aggressively biting rats. And in this case the initial goal is to establish correct social order. The human assumes the role of the alpha... read this as parent not dictator. And just like any good alpha rat or parent he or she has to communicate their social status by defending themselves against the rat which may be confused into thinking it's the alpha and that it can push the human around. This has nothing to do with positive or negative reinforcement or reward or punishment... it's straight forward communication. And yes it is confrontational... "I'm in charge and you are not", it's a simple on target message a bully rat can understand. With rats that aren't too screwed up this step is over in a matter of minutes, for really screwed up rats this can take a few hours (sometimes longer if the rat is already hormonal or has had lots of prior success pushing humans around)... they attack and you defend assertively until they stop attacking. Then you proceed with engaging them in a benign and friendly manner and for the most parts the formerly aggressive rats roll over on their backs at which time you skritch their bellies to reward them and they crawl up on you and go to sleep. Social order is established and everyone is happy... Basically it's communication the way a rat can understand it... If your rat isn't attacking you, you shouldn't be doing extreme immersion... Rats that fear bite usually withdraw and defend themselves when they are cornered... these rats require lots of patience even in immersion and should be engaged more by coaxing than challenging them unless they attack you first... You never beat a rat into submission... ever. Rats need to understand whats going on and respond appropriately on their own, in other words they choose to be your friend... No rat should ever leave immersion fearful of their human. Respectful... yes / fearful... never. And yes, rats do understand respect. Mutual respect is important in any relationship. My rats respect me and I respect them. 

Yes some extreme immersions can appear violent, mostly on the part of the attacking rat, but there's a big difference between a mom that doesn't let her children run amok and an abusive parent that takes his own aggression out on his children. You engage your rat, to which it responds and you reply to that response appropriately always with the objective of communicating your message and building a bond of love and understanding. Because the human goes into the session with the right mind set, they tend to be under-assertive rather than overly aggressive. Rats may submit to human leadership and guidance, but it's out of understanding not fear.


I'm very familiar with some of the current Positive Reinforcement Only methods. I was a psychology major back in the late 1970's and early 1980's and my psych department was ruled by rat runners... All behavior mod and operand conditioning approaches are based on rats being stimulus - response animals, not intelligent and emotional metacognative beings. And some of the best (fastest and longest lasting) results were achieved with negative stimulus not positive rewards. PRO is based on a basic misconception of how intelligent and communicative a rat really is, it discounts the entire emotional aspect of rats and it discounts the most effective part of behavior modification... negative reinforcement (the dark side of the coin). Behavior mod also doesn't address correct social order in a mixed human and rat family. Even if full boat behavior mod were effective, at best PRO is only a one sided coin.


To be honest, I think we both know that negative reinforcement is counter productive in the long run, it instills fear and distrust and breeds resentment (at least in humans). It may be effective short term, but when the lab experiment is over you wind up with cages full of screwed up rats that jump when a light goes on push levers for food and attack anything that reaches into their cage. But positive reinforcement doesn't work with screwed up alpha confused aggressive rats... This rat is challenging you and trying to impose it's status on you. Seriously... how do you reward that behavior? PRO might work with normal friendly rats, to the degree they see you as a benign vending machine, but if you try it with alpha aggressive rats, you are going to be neutering sooner rather than later... I've seen people try PRO with alpha aggressive rats and so far it's usually ended in a neuter... 


Immersion is based on communication between two intelligent beings and building real understanding and an emotionally co-dependent bond. PRO is based on eliciting desirable behaviors in a stimulus response organism... The two approaches are light years apart in theory, implementation and results. PRO tends to rely on neutering to deal with aggressive rats whereas immersion has it's extreme variant. 

People who have done either flavor of immersion are going to talk about how well bonded their rats are to them and their place in their rats family structure. They are going to talk about their rat family in terms of a complex social structure and a bi-directional mutual emotional relationship. They are going to tell you how their relationship with their rats influences the relationship between their rats. And most of all they are going to tell you about their rats personalities and how well they can understand their rats... not just be understood by their rats. Immersion graduates (human and rat) usually have high expectations for their rats and humans respectively. And many if not most true shoulder rats and their handlers are immersion graduates. Immersion graduates take great pride in their rats and in their own accomplishments.

Without understanding the theory, I understand where extreme immersion can seem just a little bit cruel. But we are really addressing the way a rat sees the world and it's place in it. We are changing it's fundamental paradigms. Perhaps it's confrontational tough love or an intervention of sorts, but we are doing it with the best interests of our rat in mind and as soon as the rat gets it, he or she starts reaping the rewards both emotionally and through new found freedoms. Rats actually want to be part of a well ordered social structure and to be loved by their families. Aggressively biting rats aren't pets, it's a very difficult situation that requires unconventional treatment.


As to PT and uterine cancer in female rats, so far I've never had one, color me lucky. So I haven't done much research on the topic. However, the best rats I've found for advanced training have a very high rate of mammary tumors. And I have done some homework there... I've read the page you cited and even a few of the studies listed and a few others... (admittedly it was a while back). Most studies were done on rats spayed relatively young and there appear to be supportable statistical benefits among the strains tested. And again, that makes sense. There are also benefits with regard to spaying pre-menopausal rats that already have estrogen dependent tumors, which also makes sense. But the benefits of spaying older or even post menopausal rats when weighed against the cost, risk of complications and mortality risk are far less clear, at least to me... but we can evaluate the risks differently based on personal experience, cost, available skilled vets and the local strains we deal with. 

I think I'm a little more skeptical about statistics and math in general than most folks. As a banker, I learned that numbers don't lie, they are cold and objective ways to quantify the world... Then I learned about derivatives and underwrote for an S&L that put a mathematical genius in charge where a banker should have been and I got to see numbers dance and reality redefined on the fly... And yes the bank was taken over by the government insurer and the derivative market crashed causing the worst financial crisis of our lifetimes, but other than that the math was really elegant. Common sense said the formulas were wrong but the math could be made to work if you just mixed in a few optimistic statistical assumptions. Basically, the lesson I've learned is that statistics are nice, but they aren't reality, until you interpret them they have no meaning. When statistics don't meet my common sense test or my personal experiences, I'll keep an open mind and perhaps hedge my bets, but will act on what I can see and believe. Spaying rats late in life should cause menopause. Menopause in rats that haven't been spayed young is associated with bringing on tumors, therefore spaying a pre-menopausal rat late in life should or at least might accelerate the onset of tumors and none of the studies done definitively prove otherwise.... I don't know if I'm right, but I'll play it my way until I'm proven definitively wrong. 

For the sake of getting my wife off my back, I recently did a statistical analysis that proved that smoking reduced a person's chance of getting cancer by over 40% and projected a smoker living on average 20 years longer than a non-smoker. Given the sample came from the shadow of a chemical tank farm and between two toxic chemical factories and a refinery, where the ground was too polluted to safely dig a trench.. it was actually based on real numbers and required very little tweaking... But seriously if anyone takes up smoking based on my study... they have lost their minds, even if they live in the shadow of a chemical tank farm in a polluted environment. Might one argue that lungs damaged by smoking reduce absorption of toxic chemicals or that smokers are somehow better equip to metabolize certain toxic waste. Who knows? But my little study definitely didn't prove anything.


It may seem long ago now, but there really was a debate on castrating rapists and repeat sexual offenders and other aggressive criminals. And statistical and scientific arguments and especially rat studies were used to get around racial issues that were raised. And higher levels of testosterone were found present in violent criminals and repeat sex offenders... This issue very well could have gone the other way had the science not proven that testosterone levels could be influenced by behavior and environment. Had it been proven to be a one way causality, even I'd have trouble arguing against castration of dangerous criminals and sex offenders. 
But it turns out that castration isn't the only answer for human offenders and it isn't the only solution for rats either. Who knows, maybe there's a variant of extreme immersion that might work on humans too?

Kind of makes me wonder...


----------



## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

RatDaddy - I wish you would write a book on this stuff - I'd buy it!


----------



## MeinTora (Mar 19, 2014)

As would I, love reading your stories, and Fuzzy reminds me a lot of my fathers rat, Rattimus, who is pretty much the whole reason why I got into rats.


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

Haha, brevity is not your strong suit. 

I'll try to come back to this thread later and address your last post in more detail, but a couple quick things:

For future reference you are mixing up negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Negative and positive are not used in the sense of "bad" and "good," but taking away or adding a stimulus that increases or decreases a behavior. http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/negative-reinforcement.htm

I will always advocating neutering in instances of hormonally aggressive rats. Many times, it is "neutering and then be done" as the rat is literally being driven into a non-rational being by his hormones. It is very difficult to "reason" with a rat that is not acting in his right mind. The tactics I use with unsocialized rats and fear aggressive rats tend to be similiar to these approaches.

http://www.shadowrat.com/rats/handling.html

http://e4n.kuddlykorner4u.com/behavior.html

As such, I am not advocating a purely positive reinforcement approach. I do not believe it is ever appropriate to hit, smack, or "alpha roll" rats, but punishment has its place. 

I find this article an excellent reference for folks who are trying to figure out if a neuter is the right step or if other things can be tried first. The author is not nearly so passionate about neutering as I, so you may consider it a more valid source. 

http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails103.html


----------



## Blackthorn (May 14, 2007)

It is also unclear and highly individual when rats go into menopause (lack of obvious heat cycles is not always definitive), so I'm not sure one could definitely say that the onset of menopause is when tumors sprout. Rats can be fertile well into old age, and many rats are certainly still fertile when they first start popping mammary tumors. Also, spaying is not the same thing as menopause. There may be some similar characteristics, but they are still quite different things.

Then we could get into a whole debate about correlation does not equal causation, statistical significance, p levels, and external and internal validity of experiments, controlling for variables, sample size, etc., but, I already did my time expounding upon all that getting my degree and it's boring.  LOL We tend to trust our own experiences more regardless (human nature being what it is), but bias plays a role for certain and doing so is by no means infallible. It's always best to educate oneself with peer reviewed scientific evidence of good repute, as clearly there are many bogus studies and faulty methodologies. As a rescuer with well over a decade of experience with thousands of rats, I'm confident in my methods, but anecdotal evidence is still what it is. 

I must say it is alarming how many folks on this board have rats living by themselves permanently due to behavioral issues. Try other methods if you'd like first if you must, but choosing to keep rats alone (with or without lots of human interaction) without trying neutering is doing a very large disservice to that rat.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I love your first remark as I currently have a girl that's never obviously been in heat developing tumors at a year old... (she also survived a very serious injury as a pup) so yes, it's nearly impossible to tell if she ever had a cycle or if she's still reproductive... And I do agree that there is more than just a loss of estrogen due to spaying... but that actually muddies up the waters a bit rather than clarifies matters... Thanks for the reminder on statistics... I barely passed it myself, but I did meet the first love of my life in that class... I might have been distracted... She failed and took the class again and oddly when I was helping her I actually finally got it.. Strangely, I still can't bring myself to gamble in a casino. 

Personally, having another good option for neutering, I do see it as more of a last resort. I do understand the statistical benefits of spaying young, even if I don't buy into the numbers as gospel.... On the other hand without known good vets to do the surgery and a local sticker price that runs $300.00 to $600.00 it's a tough call to make for a new rat you don't hardly know. I don't think the cost is my primary concern, but it factors into the equation. I suppose I wouldn't have done the research if I didn't see some benefits to the procedure... Might I have a different opinion if there was a good local vet that does spays for a reasonable price....? Perhaps, perhaps not... but it would be a different ball game. I actually did have a vet offer to spay Fuzzy Rat at a good price because he found her so remarkable, I opted against it because she was so very special and I wasn't willing to do anything that might upset her most unique personality. I tried to find him again when she developed tumors, but he went out of business... If he were still around perhaps my current rats might be spayed... but like most people, I tend to do one thing hypothetically and something else in reality when all of the variables have to be considered real time. So, I hate to say what I would do if....

Having lots of experience is a double edged sword, it makes it harder to change your methods, but you are likely to have methods that work for you already. A friend of mine is one of the top tropical fish experts in the world, he described two species and named them after himself. He's spends a lot of time learning and trying new things... He's over 80 years old but he's still considered cutting edge. He's unique in that most of his contemporaries haven't done anything new for decades. I have a tendency to get stuck on things that work for me too. I think I try and keep an open mind and keep learning, but once I learn something, I admit it's very hard to change.... especially when what I do has good results for me. After a lifetime of understanding rats one way, it took a very remarkable and determined rat to make me go back to the drawing board and start all over again. It wasn't easy for me to imagine that a small animal might be able to communicate with me or to understand me or have an emotionally biased perspective of her own. Believe me, I did a lot of "experiments" before I gave up my long held fundamental beliefs. For the most part, the longer you do something the less likely you are to change. But the better things work for you the less likely it is that you should change... It is a double edge sword...

Don't get too alarmed about how many folks keep only rats around here, it really isn't too much higher than elsewhere. Members of this board have the same strong belief that rats should live in pairs or groups. We all recommend that folks keep multiple rats together. The difference is that Rat Forum is more open to different situations than some other boards. When someone wants to discuss their only rat or their segregated rat, sure they are going to get advised against it, but (hopefully) they will also receive the help and advise they need and want. 

We get folks here with wild rats, only rats, shoulder rats, free range rats, store bought rats, feeder rats, breeder rats, rescue rats, black rats, wood rats, pouched rats, segregated rats and all kinds of common and unusual situations because they feel comfortable here. Sure we have some really good and caring rat people that will give appropriate advise against certain situations, but overall we are very accepting of different lifestyles. Some folks come to us because they were made to feel very uncomfortable elsewhere. Hopefully everyone here feels free to discuss their situation. Just because segregated rats are discussed more often here doesn't mean there are more here, and if there are more here some are here because their owners don't feel as comfortable talking about them elsewhere. 

On a personal note... I think I've seen lots of sub-optimal situations that domestic rats find themselves in. And believe me, I have a high standard for optimal, I don't even like to see rats in cages. But getting folks to take better care of their rats is an education process... If someone doesn't have money or room for a bigger cage, let's shoot for more free range time... If someone can't keep two rats, lets work on more together activities with their humans. If someone has a segregated rat maybe supervised play time is a good start... it might after all just be a matter of intros gone wrong. It's a matter of improving things not driving folks away. I do free range at a 40 acre safe site, a water front park or a soccer field, and the cage door is almost always open in my home, the idea of an hour of free range on the sofa or a bed doesn't strike me as very free or much range... but hey when I hear someone's finally got their rats out of the cage and onto the bed, I think it's a great start and I encourage them to rat proof a whole room. And over time, many folks do. Insisting on my brand of free range isn't going to help most people. 

I'd rather someone with a segregated rat remain part of our community and have access to the help they need and a place to discuss their rat(s) than to have them lurking and afraid to ask for help or express themselves.

Maybe over time Isamurat might be able to help someone with a segregated rat do a proper introduction, maybe my immersion approach will help socialize the segregated rat into the rat/human family structure and maybe you can advise about do's and don'ts of neutering, maybe someone is going to come up with an even better solution and maybe the OP won't take any of our advise but just do their best to spend more time with the segregated rat, but folks with segregated rats are rat owners too and belong in our community. We certainly aren't going to help any rats if we drive off their owners.

I think it's sad that some really experienced rat owners congregate on stagnant forums that enforce conformity and there's only one right thing to do. I think their expertise is wasted repeating the same old mantras in chorus and I think they risk getting stale without challenges or the opportunity to evolve. The best rat people should all be where the action is, where new ideas get tried and where there's lots of freedom of expression and tolerance for dissension. Sure some things work better than others, and I've seen some train wrecks coming, but we've all learned things in the process. 

I believe that rats are on the verge of becoming mainstream house pets... This is going to present a pretty conservative rat community with some serious challenges. We are going to see all kinds of wonky new situations and will need to come up with new solutions to cope with the influx of new people with less means and less space and fewer resources. We're going to need our best and brightest in top form... not on stale sites singing to the choir... Even if we don't agree on certain things, folks with 10 years of experience with thousands of rats are going to be needed here to gently and tenderly influence the future of the fancy without driving off newbies to screw up on their own... You'll be tearing your hair out for a while, but it get's better.

Just roll with it, it's more fun than it looks.


----------



## ooky (Aug 3, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> On the other hand without known good vets to do the surgery and a local sticker price that runs $300.00 to $600.00 it's a tough call to make for a new rat you don't hardly know.


Not for me  I had to neuter my boys because they came home first and I wanted a mixed-sex mischief. But after what I've seen I've known for over 10 years any future girls I was ever going to have would be getting spayed. We are all rat folks, I find I pretty much love them all the more I know them so I am not worried it will be money wasted. 

The difference between your spurious correlation with the smoking and rat spay effects on long term health is that the studies on rats and spaying have been repeated over and over and over in a variety of contexts. 

I do think it is interesting that you believe the rats most suited to being good candidates for training for shoulder rats develop lots of tumors. My girl with all the mammary tumors was far and away the most friendly, curious, drivey, and courageous. There are well-established lab lines that have greater and lesser incidence of tumor development, so maybe there is some linkage there. 

But I am not worried about neutering and spaying affecting my ability to train these guys, personally. I am into dog training (for stock work) and have never seen neutering or spaying affect a dog's abilities or trainability and that is a very demanding and difficult activity. My border collie was admittedly neutered too young, based on bad advice I got from a vet. Yet he is not lazy or dull, in fact he is very drivey, focused, biddable, and intelligent.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all, if my little study were to be replicated, and in fact is is possible, because it wasn't completely unscientific, anyone that takes up smoking for the sake of any study might be making a less than optimal choice... And speaking about smoking studies... certain studies on second hand smoke among airline employees indicating an elevated rate of cancer have become pretty suspect now that there is no more smoking on airlines and there is still an elevated rate of cancer among the crew. Now it's being attributed to either cosmic radiation or lack of sleep. The funny thing was when the news broke that second hand smoke caused cancer among flight crews, I was in the hospital in the same room with the repair and maintenance chief for a major airline at one of it's hubs, he was a top level certified jet mechanic and he pointed out that when the smoking lights came on on an airplane the cabin was pressurized and the entire volume of air was being circulated and replaced about every two minutes on a Boeing 737 by its jet engines and there wasn't a possibility of there being any significant level of second hand smoke in the cabin... ever. He insisted at the time, the conclusion that second hand smoke was causing elevated cancer rates was impossible.... Flash forward a couple of decades and now it's cosmic radiation or lack of sleep...

Well not to worry, OSHA did another study with disagrees... Using only mortality rates there is no higher risk to airline employees of getting cancer... Well, this study was done using only mortality statistics (death certificate information).. If the cancer doesn't kill you you don't count for the study. The bad news is that if you are a male airline steward, your risks of dying of HIV is 16 times higher than the general population! Looks like cosmic radiation is a killer after all, or maybe it's lack of sleep? It's not always that the study is wrong or can't be replicated, it's a whole lot of interpretation that goes into making an informed decision. And different folks are going to disagree. What if all the rat studies used the same lab chow and that particular rat chow triggered tumors in unspayed rats? Sure it's a stretch, and likely not the case... but concluding that second hand smoke was causing cancer on a jet that circulates it's entire air volume in two minutes seems a bit of a stretch in hindsight too.

I think commercial feeder rat breeders care about temperament, and likely don't breed aggressive or tweaky rats. They have to handle the animals too, and looks aren't too important for feeders. I also don't think commercial breeders care much about their rats longevity. They likely don't breed sickly rats so commercial feeder rats are more likely to be healthy when they are young. Feeder breeders are also going to breed the rats that grow faster, get bigger and get fatter. In order to be a true shoulder rat, a rat can't panic and needs a calm disposition, selecting for this trait makes sense as does not selecting for tumor resistance, so whether there is genetic linkage or just a breeder induced bias isn't clear, but I agree it's more than a coincidence. Perhaps rats the grow the fastest or get fattest also get the most mammary tumors perhaps growth hormones play a role too?

I've had spayed dogs and a neutered dog... the neutered dog was screwed up but the spayed dogs were pretty much OK. I can't say that the neutering screwed up the male dog, I got him that way, and my spayed female dogs were spayed too young for there to be much of a noticeable personality change before and after the surgery... But Fuzzy Rat was a very unique animal, I researched the benefits of neutering when I had the offer to have it done, but right or wrong (no way to tell now) I wasn't willing to mess with perfection. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, or the vet may have screwed up and there would have been no Fuzzy Rat, no amazing life and no immersion... The way she died was tragic, but the way she lived was amazing... I'm not doing regrets... it's too easy to get caught up in what might have been. The road we took might have been bumpy, but the road not taken might have taken us off a cliff... That vet was out of business within six months of offering to do the spay... 

These are the kinds of debates that make for good fun, because there are no absolute right or wrong answers. If you have a rat spayed or neutered and it dies during or after surgery, it might have had some kind of defect that would have killed it anyway or it might have lead a long healthy life... Maybe cosmic radiation does increase someone's "mortality rate" due to HIV sixteen times... Maybe beer drinking and smoking had nothing to do with my 100 year old neighbor's longevity.. And maybe his death had something to do with his best friend dying a little while before he died... There are so many variables and so much to consider when making an informed decision that even the best statistical solution can go terribly wrong. Statistics prove that the casino always wins in the end and yet any casino with the word Trump on it winds up going bankrupt, sometimes more than once... Hows that for a silly statistical correlation?

And why can't I have a last cigarette on an jet airliner? Don't I deserve it if I'm getting nuked? Well I best not lose any sleep over it.

exit laughing...


----------

