# Slightly Urgent: New To Rats; Re-affirming Info For Orphans



## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello! I recently started lurking here thinking about adopting two rescues. Low and behold, tonight a neighbor of mine knocked on my door and asked me if I had any rat experience. I said no, but could probably give general advice based on what I know of other small mammals. She said that she had two baby rats that she didn't want, but her son brought home. They are "feeder" rats, but none of my snakes will eat live and I don't have the heart to kill these little guys when I have plenty of frozens in my fridge. At any rate, I decided to take them anyway. They're fairly young, and based on very quick research I'll say they might be 11 days or around there.

Quick stats: One is a brown color, I guess this would be considered "classic" (can you tell I'm a snake owner. Haha). The other is a white, unknown if red-eye. The brown one is 23g and the white 24g. Both have closed eyes, but are able to scratch and groom, however ungracefully. They seem very content to curl up under my laptop, which is on my lap currently and there is a nice little space. I suppose they're a bit cold. I assume they are very hungry by now, which brings me to my questions.

I read on a website recommended in another thread that kitten milk replacer will work as food. Is this only if you're in a bind or will it be an ideal diet until they can be weaned? The reason I ask is because I happen to have milk replacer left over from when I found my Spookie cat at about 2 weeks (someone threw the little brat away). I have little syringes that were given to me when the same little Spookie accidentally got outside and ripped out her front claws (became infected and needed both pain meds and stuff to clear up the yuck). I'm pretty sure these little ratties are big enough to comfortable suck from the tip. So, to re-iterate, will kitten milk replacer work as a food source? I don't have sugar, so that's out.

Next, I know from accidentally killing a few pinkie mice (bad bad on me) that you have to help along the digestive process and pee the mice after eating. If these rats are 11/12 days old, do I still have to mimic mama and stimulate them to go to the bathroom? If so, how long until they can do it on their own? I'm fairly sure I've seen a little pellet of poo once or twice so far.

Again, if they are at the age I think, do they still need to be fed every two hours? They sure seem hungry and keep licking my fingers, so I'm guessing I need to feed them soon. I've been worried about causing more harm than good if I give them a bit of water.

Last for now, do you think they still need a heat source? If so, how old before I can stop adding heat?

I've attached a few pictures. I don't know if they are little boys or little girls, so names are not given. I know they will be a lot of work, but from what I understand, it shouldn't be as much work if they are the age I think. They can't be any harder than the baby birds I've raised, can they?

Pictures in order: The two together, white rat genitals, brown rat genitals, brown rat eyes, white rat eyes. Sorry about the upside-down picture. I forgot to rotate it.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Kitten Milk Replacer or KMR ideal for them, although most of us prefer puppy, or you can even use human soy powder formula. At this age I would continue to feed every 2-3 hours, keep them warm (their coat will help a little, but just tuck some fleece over them to keep their body heat in). They are both girls, from the genital to anal spacing, and from the nippes that can be seen in both pics.  One looks like a PEW (pink-eyed white), and the other is an agouti (brown wild rat colour).

You can handle them without worry and think of all the things you might need to do later as adults and desensitize them to touching certain ibts. I put my rescue babies on their back, pull gently on toes, tails, ears, pretend to look at teeth, run my hands all over them. These rats usually end up happier, more confident and friendly adults.

Once those eyes open around 14 days (soon), they start to zoom...you can cut back the feeding a little and offer solid foods like a quality lab block, baby cereal, Ensure, soft veggies (you can use frozen veggie mix that has been thawed. 

You will need to encourage them to eliminate at this age. Mom licks their genitals/butts to get them to pee/poop (all the same on a liquid diet, and it's orangish if I remember correctly) You can use a damp cottonball or piece of cloth to simulate mom's actions. Just keep wiping over and over to make sure they go. By 2.5 weeks as long as they are pooping and peeing on their own, you can stop.

But word of warning, its very very hard to hand-raise babies from a young age, and you could lose them even when you do all of this. I wish you luck and expect lots of updates


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

I'll have to pick up some puppy or soy today. I just had the Kitten on hand. They must be half starved by now because I didn't want to feed them something that could kill them. I did get them to suckle a little bit of water from a q-tip very early this morning at around 3am. I have them on a little baby towel at the moment and kept them near the portable heater in my room (I have a hairless guinea pig who likes it warm). 

Out of curiosity, how can you tell the white one is a pink-eye?

I'll make sure to desensitize them. They won't like the teeth thing, but I sure do know the benefits of it. It makes my life much easier with my dog, turtles, and some of my snakes. I'm also going to have to pick up solid food for them, so I'll start researching that after I post. They do eliminate very well using a q-tip, so I'm glad I don't have to worry any about that part. They sure don't like showing their undersides though. Wiggle worms. ;D

I haven't noticed them going on their own, but I haven't looked too hard just yet. I'll have to clean out the two little poos from helping them this morning. Which brings me to another question. If you manage to get an adult to hold still long enough and stimulate their genitals, will they eliminate just like babies? Or do they eventually grow out of the connection?

And last question, do you think they will open their eyes in the next day or two? I'd like to be able to guess the birthday so that if they live, I can celebrate with them next year. Thank you for your help and I will certainly update with pictures. Here's one now for you. Little brown pup seems to like sleeping on her head. For some reason, the picture is sideways despite showing properly in attachments. The blue boarder is on top.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

calisphere said:


> I'll have to pick up some puppy or soy today. I just had the Kitten on hand. They must be half starved by now because I didn't want to feed them something that could kill them. I did get them to suckle a little bit of water from a q-tip very early this morning at around 3am. I have them on a little baby towel at the moment and kept them near the portable heater in my room (I have a hairless guinea pig who likes it warm).
> 
> Out of curiosity, how can you tell the white one is a pink-eye?
> 
> ...


As for PEW baby girl, if she was beige she would have ruby eyes but her colour isn't right, and by now you can usually tell the PEW white coat. PEW's genetically only have pink eyes, beige genetically only have ruby or red eyes, agouti only have black eyes.

they grow out of the stimulation effect.

With the teeth thing, don't really try, just pretend like you're going to, touch their muzzle, later on, you can do a bit more, or just lift the lips a little.

Feed those babies, they need it NOW!


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Just got done feeding... or trying to anyway. They seem more inclined to lick the milk off of the fattier parts of my fingers than to use the syringe. It's a very messy business. Haha. I know I should take it a bit slow the first feeding or two until they get used to the new milk, so hopefully in another hour or so they will go at the milk like it's going out of fashion. They are now a lot more active. Little Miss Brown (that's what we'll call her for now) has learned to climb out of the 6qt tub I am keeping them in. She made her way onto my computer and has nested under my hand while I try to type. Thank goodness I can still type anyway and hopefully she won't pee on my keyboard.

They seem to do okay with the handling, I guess they really are feeder rats and I assume they've been poked and thrown around more than we'd like to admit. They don't like their back feet pulled on, but I guess I understand that. Those are the most stable body parts on them besides their heads. Everything else is still clumsy.


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

I wanted to add a little update:

As of 6:40pm mountain time (US), they ate roughly 1.45 cc of KMR between the two of them. I'm letting them make up for lost time and I realized they were a little dehydrated from yesterday. They are getting fed roughly every 90 minutes instead of two-three hours, though I will move it up to that spacing tomorrow.

And, they both have names. Hopefully it won't be in vain. The white one is now to be called Push and the brown one is Plop. The short story of that one is that I notice the white one is always pushing on the brown one. When they are both in my hand, that makes the brown one have an inch flight to the pillow below. So, Push and Plop. Haha.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

calisphere said:


> I wanted to add a little update:
> 
> As of 6:40pm mountain time (US), they ate roughly 1.45 cc of KMR between the two of them. I'm letting them make up for lost time and I realized they were a little dehydrated from yesterday. They are getting fed roughly every 90 minutes instead of two-three hours, though I will move it up to that spacing tomorrow.
> 
> And, they both have names. Hopefully it won't be in vain. The white one is now to be called Push and the brown one is Plop. The short story of that one is that I notice the white one is always pushing on the brown one. When they are both in my hand, that makes the brown one have an inch flight to the pillow below. So, Push and Plop. Haha.


Very good!! I can't wait to hear more stories and see more pics of these 2 little gals


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## ariananugnet (Oct 18, 2011)

I hope they make it  keep us updated with Push and Plop!


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Plop gave me a scare. I opened up their tub to feed them and picked her up. She was asleep, but I guess in such a deep sleep that she didn't realized she'd been moved. She looked dead, but I gave her a few nudges and she popped back to live. I guess it was a good dream. 

Plop now has both eyes open and Push has one fully open while the other is sort of squinty. They both seem to be eating fine. Hopefully it continues until they are past the "danger zone" of not making it. When do you think that will be? After they are weaned?


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

calisphere said:


> Plop gave me a scare. I opened up their tub to feed them and picked her up. She was asleep, but I guess in such a deep sleep that she didn't realized she'd been moved. She looked dead, but I gave her a few nudges and she popped back to live. I guess it was a good dream.
> 
> Plop now has both eyes open and Push has one fully open while the other is sort of squinty. They both seem to be eating fine. Hopefully it continues until they are past the "danger zone" of not making it. When do you think that will be? After they are weaned?


Ugh Kyran does that all the time to me, when I first got him I would pull him out of his sock and for a few seconds he would just be limp. Yesterday I came out to check on them. It had been a chilly night so I had placed a blanket over 2/3 of their cage. I moved the blanket and he was on the second platform on his side deffinately in the "I'm dead" position. I gasped and said Kyran and he jumped up gave a little yawn and looked at me like I was crazy. Then ran to the door begging for breakfast -.-


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

calisphere said:


> Plop gave me a scare. I opened up their tub to feed them and picked her up. She was asleep, but I guess in such a deep sleep that she didn't realized she'd been moved. She looked dead, but I gave her a few nudges and she popped back to live. I guess it was a good dream.
> 
> Plop now has both eyes open and Push has one fully open while the other is sort of squinty. They both seem to be eating fine. Hopefully it continues until they are past the "danger zone" of not making it. When do you think that will be? After they are weaned?


"dead asleep" babies have stopped many a heart, just watch the floppy head and neck when you pick them up. 

Ohhh very good, more pics please? They would be in the 13-15 days range now, and I would say younge. They are right on target...so that's awesome! Soon they will be able to drink formula from a shallow dish, and will start nibbling real foods. IF you are having problems getting them to try new foods, put it in your mouth and either take it out, and offer it to them, or hold it in your lips and let them "steal" it. You are their Mom, and that is how they learn what's good and safe to eat. They smell their mom's breath, steal food from her mouth. You should also take a lightly damp cloth and clean the babies twice a day as mom's are constantly grooming their babies, and they will be peeing all over each other and their coat could get icky. LOL


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Lol, well I'm glad that it's a normal behavior. I could have killed the little thing for trying to give me a heart attack. She's officially in the same boat as my corn hybrid Hey Now. That snake keeps trying to stick her little nose threw the air holes of her tub and almost got through one. She would have broken her neck if she had. So, I guess the pets in the "Bad! You gave me a heart attack" boat now includes Hey Now, Hippo (my hairless guinea pig), and Plop.

I do have one more concern. I'm not sure if the rats are/will be bonded to me. I know I'll probably be scolded for this, but might as well be honest. I think the rats may be bonded to my dog. Scrappi is her name and she suffers from phantom pregnancies, which means she will lactate every so often and up to several months at a time. Well, she's going through one now and is very clingy. She's been trying to nurse the rats, and they seem to like digging under her. She's been grooming them and following them around and they don't really seem to mind. They will go to me half the time and go to her the other half. I guess it won't be too bad if they are bonded to her. It will give them someone to play with. Anyway, the short of that long thing is, what do I do if the rats have become bonded to the dog? She'll outlive them by far (unless she gets into chocolate again). I always supervise any interaction between my animals if different species are involved, with the exception of the cats being around the dog. Scrappi was raised around small mammals since she was out sized by guinea pigs. Scrappi, knowing she can get into many of my animal cages does unless I tell her so. If the rats are bonded to her, I suppose I would have to let her near them a lot more often as they get older to keep them happy, correct? She'd probably lick them to death or do what she does with the guinea pigs and steal their fruits.

Anyway, here are a few more pictures from "play time" on the extra bed. Please excuse the icky pillow. That's Scrappi's drool catcher. And for the blurry pictures. Little rats don't hold still.

After a tongue bath:









Trying to burrow into Scrappi's leg:









Looking at Plop digging under Scrappi's belly:









Scrappi making sure Push is okay:









Plop cuddling up to Scrappi:









Plop grooming me after getting a tongue bath from Scrap:

















Scrap and Plop touching noses:









Plop takes a quick nap. It's so tiring getting and giving baths:









The girls becoming Rulers of the Pillow:









The girls fighting to win Ruler of the Thumb:









Vegging out on Scrap... and under Scrap:









There are lots of other semi-blurry pictures here: http://s1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff391/LookOfWinter/Rats/


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Lie on a couch or bed, put the babies in your lap and pat them, stroke them and get them used to you. Don't worry its not like they will imprint on your dog. They do love Food Bringers and you'll be fun to play with. Its typical for babies to burrow under things, that's how they keep warm and safe. 

My current rescue litter with its own dead sleepers


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and the babies right after their eyes started opening


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Awww!!! You have your hands full!

Is the first a boy? I'm still trying to learn to tell right off the bat. As for burrowing, Scrappi sure is a warm place. I throw her on my feet whenever they need warming. Well, not throw....


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

calisphere said:


> Awww!!! You have your hands full!
> 
> Is the first a boy? I'm still trying to learn to tell right off the bat. As for burrowing, Scrappi sure is a warm place. I throw her on my feet whenever they need warming. Well, not throw....


yes the top pic is a boy


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, I just did some serious squeeing. 
Maybe it will be good for Scrappi to have these babies around, and if you plan on keeping them, then at least she'll have them for the next few years.


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## cheshire (Oct 24, 2011)

I wish my dog was like scrappy. My Chihuahua is more curius about the ratties than anything and when I had a rabbit all he wanted to do was play with her. My dacshund on the other had gets that blood lust in his eyes when he smells the rats. He is going blind though (ran into a wall today) so I am hoping when the boys get bigger I can gt them a ball and he won't be able to see them? You are so lucky you have a dog that is paitent around the babies she must have a really good mommy :-D

Also I am so glad you brought up the dead sleepers topic I seriously thought there was something wrong with Kyran. I am so glad to find out its a baby rat thing and not an illness thing.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

cheshire said:


> Also I am so glad you brought up the dead sleepers topic I seriously thought there was something wrong with Kyran. I am so glad to find out its a baby rat thing and not an illness thing.


Babies usually run on 2 speeds, Dead Stop or Full Speed Ahead  If a baby sleeps like the dead but is active, alert, climbing around, eating/drinking/pooping well, then its fine, but IF baby is quiet the rest of the time too there's a possibility of illness.


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Cheshire, I hope your blind puppy figures out how to avoid walls soon! Poor puppy. After Scrappi goes, I think I might start looking for a disabled dog, over 50 pounds. I recently got a PM asking me if I'd considered letting Scrap nurse rescue pups (which never occurred to me so I'll look into it). I've been wanting to have a dog that can donate blood, but there is usually a 50+ pound requirement and I figure if I can get a needy/disabled dog that can still donate blood, then that's two birds, one stone.

As for me being a good mom to Scrap, I'm not sure. I've threatened her life at least three times a day for almost five years. It's mostly joking, like saying "Scrappi, if you don't get off my lap so I can pee, I'm gonna kill you" or "It's a blizzard out here, please hurry up before I kill you". It's just an empty threat, but makes me feel better. I also play "Kick the dog" with her, which basically is me nudging her with my foot and she grabs a hold of my jeans (hopefully only that and not skin too). Then she pulls and I pull and if she lets go I nudge her again. We do get a little rough, but she always bounces back. If one of us gets too rough we stop and share some peanut butter. I also "beat" her with a pillow. We've lost a few good pillows so far. I'm a terrible mommy I think. 

Back to the rats though... I've moved them from the 6qt tub to a 10 gallon tank. Now that they both have open eyes, I thought they could use more room. Also, I've discovered something that is completely awesome. I've shipped reptiles before and ordered some heat packs. They're 40 hour packs and get to about 100 degrees F. They've made things so much easier with the snow storm we had here in Colorado. I've opened up two so far and have placed them under the blankets for a nice warm spot. I also keep them in the bedroom with the guinea pigs and a heater. It stays about 84-86 degrees (for Hippo the skinny pig). Also, I've put in a few extra toilet paper rolls, but so far the rats seem afraid of them. I also put a piece of wheat cracker from Carr's Entertainment Cracker Collection (which is yum) in last night. I'm not sure exactly what they did with it, but there are crumbs everywhere. The may have chewed on it a bit, so progress there.

Last but not least, Plop seems to be a climber/explorer and Push seems to be a bit lazy. While Plop likes to explore my hair and t-shirt sleeves, Push likes to find a comfy spot and sleep or groom. They do seem to get a kick out of playing on one of the cat trees though.


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## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

calisphere said:


> I recently got a PM asking me if I'd considered letting Scrap nurse rescue pups (which never occurred to me so I'll look into it). I've been wanting to have a dog that can donate blood, but there is usually a 50+ pound requirement and I figure if I can get a needy/disabled dog that can still donate blood, then that's two birds, one stone.


I actually almost brought that up yesterday xD


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## calisphere (Oct 25, 2011)

Lol. Yeah. Will be making some calls on Monday about Scrap.

As for the rats, I swear someone came in and stole my rat pups. Overnight they went from wanting to drink nothing but KMR to hating it. They seem very much to like wheat crackers and have tested water from a bottle cap. They still sort of drink the KMR, but prefer it out of a bottle cap than the syringe now. I was hoping for another week to decide what kind of food to get them, but I guess I have another day or so to decide. It's hard to believe that less than a week ago they had closed eyes and became really slow if they didn't eat enough. I guess I should start looking into adult foods for them while I watch Scrappi eat catnip. I think she has an identity crisis going on.


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