# Immersion with Moose: Take 1!



## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well we have begun, and it's safe to say Moose is not pleased with being locked in a bathroom. Thus far, he hasn't tried to fight or bite, just keeps trying to get under the door. I have started a few bouts of boxing and have pinned him, and his little squeak breaks my heart ((


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Looootttt of nervous teeth gnashing and squeaks and frantic attempts to get out any way possible


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## PandaCobain (Apr 27, 2013)

Sorry if this seems stupid, but what exactly is immersion? I've never really had trouble with any of my rats.

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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

PandaCobain said:


> Sorry if this seems stupid, but what exactly is immersion? I've never really had trouble with any of my rats.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?67442-Immersion-Training-The-Guide

Ladyfish, keep us updated. Is there a reason you are boxing and pinning him?


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, my main issue with Moose is his bullying of his big brother Totoro; it has escalated to the point where Totoro is missing a chunk of his nose and is being housed separately while he heals, and I figure out how to help him become less terrified of Moose. Moose started this kickboxing dance thing he does before he gets ready to fight, so I pinned him first to show him who's boss. He has gone from frantically trying to escape to climbing around my shoulders to hiding behind a toilet to now ignoring me and having a bath. I just kind of feel like a big meanie keeping him scared and locked in here with me ahhhhh


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

It's not generally a good idea to try to show dominance/aggression towards a rat in the way a rat would to another--that actually tends to make them frightened of you. Humans show dominance over ratties in other ways, like being in control of when he gets picked up, when he eats, when he's in cage and out, etc. If he shows aggression towards you pick him up and look him in the eye and talk to him calmly to make him feel more relaxed. You want him to be comfortable with you and accept you as the loving and caring alpha, not as a scary alpha because if he's scared of you he's going to keep trying to take over.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Aandd back to trying to escape.. I assume he will eventually get tired of these futile attempts and accept his fate of hanging out with me??


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Perhaps I misunderstood Rat Daddy's sticky on immersion, but I suppose I will keep trying to be nice. I was just going about if differently because I have always used those techniques you mentioned, Rumy, and it clearly hasn't worked out because Moose definitely thinks he is the boss of Totoro, and doesn't get that just being nice to me and not his brothers is not enough! Really, he has always seemed to like me way more than my bf, but I think he is just scared right now being locked in a bathroom with me, and it's making me sad!!!! I am attempting this as an alternative to Moose living alone, because I will not tolerate him hurting poor Totoro every time I go to sleep or turn my back. Frustrating.


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I feel you--that's what immersion is for! And if you feel pinning him, etc is best then I say go ahead and try it. I just know from my experience with an aggressive female I had that trying to dominate her in the ratty way just worsened the problem. All rats are different though, so maybe she was just a nutcase.


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

I have the same problem with my girls (not to your extent though) Doxy tries to bully my sweet lily and it breaks my heart, they both have over grooming spots and Doxy keep pinning lily, but sometimes they get along, When they fight i just try to pull them apart and control the situation The reason the fighting worried me is because the spots where its over groomed had like been bitten a little, not hard but it scabbed up, and i don't want any of that going on, i've never tried immersion but i show my rats whos boss, not in a aggressive way but playful and they love me still, Doxy is iffy though, shes yet to show that much personality so we'll see lol. Good luck with moose, hopefully he will come around! My girls have gotten a bit better but they have their moments still. I kinda rambled, oh well XD


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Nah you're fine, Limouri, nice to know I'm not the only one with this issue! I wish I could tell whether we are making progress, but I really don't know. Moose has really not stopped trying to get through the towel and under the door,For the last two hours....I am a little surprised/happy he hasn't bitten or nipped at me at all. He really doesn't bite me ever, only when he's scared, and he is definitely scared now. So I guess there's one thing haha. Now if he would only stop trying to escape and come sleep in my lap or something haha


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I couldn't feel like a bigger jerk! He is just curled in a corner, blatantly turning his back to me. I swear we are taking steps backwards- when we first got him, he squeaked EVERY time we even touched him, and he is currently back to doing that. He's just hanging out alone and ignoring me now and I'm sad!


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

At this point just do your best to interact with him. The session takes so long because you have to work through different barriers as you go through. He's getting grumpy which is fine--try to figure out what he's telling you and do what you can to talk to him in return.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well he's asleep now haha maybe he will wake up in a better mood


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK... you need to respond to aggression with aggression, but if he's not being aggressive you can work on play first. First work on communicating and being friends then if he gets pushy you push back..... Try to get him to bond with you by getting him to love you first. Yes stay in his face but offer skritches and treats more than pinning or discipline .. More like aggressive love.

Now moose isn't attacking you nor playing with you from what I gather, so he more or less tolerates you rather than loves and respects you. And this pretty much has to end... Keep bringing him in to you keep reaching out to him until he begins to engage you back. If he playfights that's fine, it's communication and you communicate by winning each and every time. When he's ready to submit to you as in he stops fighting and starts snuggling you snuggle the stuffing out of him and show him lots of love... Once you are his alpha then you introduce Totoro and get Moose to understand that he's part of the same pack and under your protection too and work on a 3 way bond. 

It pretty much works like a teacher managing a class of kids... If you ever see what a classroom looks like when the teacher is out or when the teacher is grossly incompetent and can't control her class that's what you have with rats that don't respect and love you as the alpha.

As moose isn't exactly a new rat in your household, he's already getting confused about being an alpha and about your role in the pack order so this might be somewhat of a rude awakening for him.

Keep it up and stay with him... try to interpret what his telling you and try to get the message across that you are his alpha, you love him, but you are in charge. Think of yourself more of a mom or teacher and less like a cop.

Once her realizes that resistance if futile, he'll start trying to communicate with you.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Scoop him up and have him sleep on you if he isn't on you already. Rats sleeping together is a sign of bonding behavior.


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

Thats what i was just about to post Rat Daddy! I find that when i scoop my rats up when they are sleeping, gently, it works better then trying to calm them down and bond with them. Last night i did that with lily and she was boggling i think for the first time and bruxing! Then i took her to the bed and she cleaned herself then curled up and went back to sleep. My girls tend to be hyper so getting them when they are calm is key. I just did it with Doxy, who normally is wiggly and a bit of a bully, was now bruxing in my arms also, i give them a treat when i put them back also to reinforce this behavior.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Once Moose realizes you are communicating with him and begins to try to really interact with you and talk to you, you have to react quickly and respond so he knows you are getting his messages and try to send him replies he can understand.

Step one, Moose learns you are a sentient being capable of 2 way communication.
Step two, Moose learns you are his alpha rat you protect him and guide him and listen to him and help him with stuff he can't do.. Also he's not the alpha rat and he doesn't make rules.
Step three, You set the rules. Rule one is no beating up your other pack members. Disrespecting his roommates is the same as disrespecting alpha mom and disrespecting alpha mom always ends badly.

Remember Moose is a sentient and emotional being like yourself you are not training a dumb animal. You are explaining to a little kid that you are it's new mom. Immersion works when you both get it. Then everything just seems to change.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Limouri,

Rats have a very tenuous grasp on English.. They communicate in rat and as we generally don't speak rat so we need to use body language as much as possible at first... And even in human body language... if you went on a date with someone that doesn't speak the same language as you and you wind up snuggling together, I'd say the date went pretty well. Thankfully rats and humans share a very similar body language.


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Limouri,
> 
> Rats have a very tenuous grasp on English.. They communicate in rat and as we generally don't speak rat so we need to use body language as much as possible at first... And even in human body language... if you went on a date with someone that doesn't speak the same language as you and you wind up snuggling together, I'd say the date went pretty well. Thankfully rats and humans share a very similar body language.


Yeah i guess my bonding sessions are going well then 

Another tip for Moose and you, speak to him ALOT. I have my rats right by my computer so im always by them. I talk to them constently, even when they are sleeping, in my cute animal voice...we all know we have one lol!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, it's been 3 hours and I kind of feel like we are making no progress haha. He slept for all of half a minute then went right back to the door to try to get under and tear through the towel. He took someFood from my hand, which isn't a new thing, had some Water, and went right back to the door. I keep picking him up and trying to get him to move away from the door, buuttt this far, it is an exercise in futility haha. I am talking to him and using his name so annoyingly much and trying to figure out what he wants me to do, buuttt I think he just wants meTo open the door haha sorry, Moose, no can do


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

Poor little man! But hey, if he never was bullying this wouldn't be happening! Just keep trying


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

If he doesn't want to play, doesn't want to fight, just wants to alternately push under the door, or lay in a corner ignoring me like he is now, should I let him sit there alone or keep trying to hold him and pet him? I have been grabbing him and annoying the crap out of him with cuddles and kisses, and he is losing his patience and just leaps down my arm and away from me now haha gahh. Is he eventually going to break and voluntarily come see me?? He does when we play in the house, but since we've been locked in the bathroom, not so much


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

4 hours. Little to no progress. Still trying to escape and seems more scared of me than he used to be....I have literally been fielding off escape attempts by the incredibly squeaky Mr. Moose,For the past four hours. Not really sure how long I can keep this up, with no signs of progress!!


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

If it were me i'd take a break, I don't know much bout immersion though! maybe he will be more cooperative another day ):


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Everything I read says it needs to be on long marathon session...but this is clearly going nowhere but backwards....if this little rat would be happy living alone and just playing with the other guys while I watch, then I'm about to give in, cuz he has communicated nothing today other than a desperate need to escape this freaking bathroom haha aahhhh


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Like I kind of think he's having a psychotic break. He won't stop eating frantically through this towel under the door! I cannot stop him, no matter how many times I pick him up, he goes right back, and squeaks like CRAZY when I grab him!


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

That sucks! I would still take a break if it were me. As far as fighting, when my girls fight i either shake the cage or hit it a bit, not hard lol but something that will get their attention and lay off eachother. I don't know if this is ok or not but its just something i do since they stay right by me. ><


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

ok, my boy Basil loves to try and wiggle under doors. I cant see Moose so I dont know for sure how hes behaving but I learnt pretty quick that putting a towel under the door to block him was actually just a huge invitation to move the towel and carry on squeezing under the door. I understand you probably dont want to lose him under that door but maybe you could sit in a tub with him, or a shower? Immersion can take aaaages but it seems that it usually ends happily. Dont give up on Moose! Once he understands you are trying to understand him he will come around. It can get tough but its better to carry on than stop while he is acting scared. I had a successful re-immersion this week but when I did it with my newest baby, Imp, I was stuck for hours with little improvement, he was scared and jumpy, then suddenly he wanted to play, so we played, then he curled up and went to sleep but it took nearly six hours to get to that point and even then another two hours for him to get bored of playing after his nap. I was dog tired and rather irritable the next day but Imp is an amazing little guy and it was so worth he time spent working on it. Dont give up, you can do it!
have you tried giving him a treat? or letting him lick water off your finger? I wouldnt carry on if your getting too frustrated because it will make it difficult to communicate but if you do you might just have to try again another time but set back further. I hope you do start to see an improvement, it must be horrible to see him scared


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Might there be a smell or something in the bathroom that's making him uncomfortable?


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Lol yeah idk either. My problem is just that Moose does the actual damage at night...he had never broken skin before last Wednesday, when we woke up and found poor totoro missing a little chunk. He wasn't too concerned, but since then, moose has been extra mean to him, even when I'm watching, and I have to pull him off of T, who is scared to death of him. I was hoping this immersion stuff would help me teach Moose who's boss, but seeing as how he hasn't tried to play or fight, and just wants to escape this room, I'm not too sure how well this is going for either of us haha


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

His behavior is changing which is a good thing, but if you stop before you make progress he wins and you lose. If you lose next try will be much harder. He either gets with the program or you are going to have to get rid of him sooner or later as he will likely get more and more aggressive over time.

I realize this is hard, and he's stuck in his ways a lot worse than some other rats that have done this process, but he's trying to escape from getting fixed. And you simply can't permit him that option. Try sliding in front of the door so he has to push through you. As you should already be on the floor with him this shouldn't be much of an issue. Maybe he'll get the message that the way out is through you.

And by the way most bonded rats will come to you to ask you to open the door for them, not just keep digging unless they know you won't do it.

If you can pick him up and let him run on your shoulders if you need to stand up. Keep reaching out to him. Rejecting you and rejecting your authority is not an option. It's ok if he wants out, but it's not ok that he's refusing to interact with you. If he starts preening that means he is thinking, don't interrupt that, but otherwise stay with him.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I am trying so hard to be patient cuz I love the crazy little dude! I have been sitting in front of the door for a while now, and he has just been laying in a corner not too far from me, on a piece of kale he seems to think is a bed haha. He just looks kind of sad and defeated and scared now, I've petted him a few times, slowly, and while he doesn't snap, he slowly shrinks back. He is definitely sleepy and is aboutTo pass out I think. I don't want to try to pick him up while he's sleeping, because at this point, I am pretty positive he will not sleep on me, and once he wakes up, he doesn't usually go back to sleep for a while. I'm going to let him nap and stop bothering him for a while. It's been 5 hours, and I would hate to have wasted all this time for nothing


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I tried the bathtub after I got sick of blocking the door, but he is quite the jumper and that proved to be no obstacle for him to escape from haha. I don't think it's an issue of smell, it's just him wanting to run the show, as per usual. I have given him a few treats, most recently the piece of kale he turned into a bed haha. For now, he's asleep. Maybe he will wake up and have had a life changing slumber! I can dream, right?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Just as a footnote, Moose is most likely on a downward spiral that's getting worse and is going to get worse... As you pointed out so well, he's not biting you "yet". And as a rat owner you can most likely feel it coming... He's got to break down and submit now or he will start biting you soon.


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

well, hey, he might wake up a changed rat  just stick with it, hes bound to improve eventually! (just wanted to add, Basil thinks the door thing is a game. there is one cupboard door that I dont want them to go under so i put a towel there, basil took this as an invitation and now will wriggle back and forth beneath the door bruxing and occasionally jumping over to me to get me to chase him, then dive for the door again with a cheeky rat laugh. Im working on stopping this but after that one little mistake at the beggining its proving difficult but is slwoly improving, rats are so smartthey will remember mistakes as well as what you want them to learn!. otherwise he will come and "collect me" so i can open a door) 
I have found the water thing very helpful, just a drop of water on the end of my finger that encourages the rat to lick and get closer if he is thirsty and wants some more or is just curious about it. But hey, sleeping is an improvment to trying to escape right? Thats good


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I know I know haha something has definitely got To give before he starts terrorizing my bf and me haha, can't have one little rat running our lives! We didn't have to take this evil looking rat home haha he needs to realize he is lucky I care about him enough to sit in a bathroom for 5+ hours on my day off!! Haha but yeah, he has been napping for a good while, and you're right, definite improvement over the insane escape thing lol. Yeah, I haven't tried the water thing with him today, but I do it all the time with his brothers, who are looking more and more saint-like as this day progresses. I am going to let Moose sleep as long as he wants, cuz maybe he was just getting grumpy from 5 hours of insanity haha


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Also remember pushing him out of his comfort zone is what this is all about, napping on you is good, napping in a corner is not... If he wants to nap in the corner you can join him there and keep petting him while he is sleeping if you feel he's not ready to sleep on you...

To be honest, from what you wrote about Moose I really didn't know he was this screwed up. I was thinking that the human and rat immersion would go quickly and the rat on rat immersion would be the challenge, but Moose is really fighting hard to beat you. It's about time you stepped up your game and if he starts fighting back, you put him in his place. I'm pretty sure if Totoro were hiding in a corner Moose wouldn't just leave him alone. I wish I were there to read what he's doing whether it's fear or rejection of you're authority... If it's fear, you're pushing for snuggles, if it's disrespect you're pushing for more control, you have to call that on the fly... and by the way kale isn't a treat for immersion, snickers bars are treats for immersion. I've never seen a rat make a bed out of a snickers bar.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When we do immersion, the new rat spends the entire time in physical contact with either me or my daughter, play or fight the only time we let them alone is when they need to preen-think, otherwise it's hands on.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Yeah I didn't think so, either! I had no idea it would be this difficult arghh. Well, the little monster is awake and back to his door antics, so I'm parked in front of it again. So you're saying, ifmoose is hiding from me in a corner, I should always grab him/pet him/generally annoy him? I had hoped that patience would pay off and he would stop hiding out, but he is clearly a stubborn little terror. I guess I'm just not too sure if I should be instigating little 'fights', if he hasn't done that all day? Not sure how I can get him to play with me at this point. Well, I have some poptarts he love, but I don't want to give him the good stuff untilHe earns it. He has done nothing to deserve a treat all day, but I have been giving him some regardless. If he actually acts like a well-behaved young man, we can discuss the pop tarts haha but he has been pretty much ignoring the majorityOf what I've offered him today. He's a bit distracted by his thoughts, I guess,Idk.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, then Moose is about to be carried around for a longgggg while, cuz I have tried everything else I can think of to get him to play haha. He is awfully squirmy, but he's had his fun


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

So I have been bothering him non stop, he started to nip and fight me,So I pinned him, and he is still laying against the corner, looking scared. I feel terrible. Is this normal???? He has not gotten up...I know I didn't hurt him, it just might be one of the first times he's been the clear loser. Should I comfort him or does that erase him thinking I'm his boss? Oh I just feel awful!!!!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Okay, he finally moved and cleaned his balls and is now having a little bath. Good/bad/anything??


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Okay, this seems to be progress, of sorts. Since I pinned him pretty good, he has been almost submissive. When I reach to pet him, he kind of lays on his side, and I have been petting him wherever I want, nonstop, for about 10 minutes. He doesn't seem stoked, but he's also not biting, trying to escape, or squeaking. He might just be too super scared of me now to so anything, but I have NEVER been able to pet him like this


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yay a breakthrough!


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Exactly how did you "pin him"??


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

He started kicking, and bit me hard enough to draw blood, so all I did was fight back like a rat would, barely had an opportunity to gently push him to imitate a little rat hit, and he lay down kind of against the wall, and looked EXACTLY like totoro does when moose pins him. Totoro does the freezing thing that Moose did, not moving for a minute, but I like to think that Moose cleaning himself immediately afterwards was a good sign that he was considering the situation that just unfolded. He has been a lot better about running from me since then, and has come to realize that when he nips at me, I will fight back. So I think we are over one hurdle of him more or less accepting that he has to answer to me, and not vice versa, but we still have a long ways to go, as he has yet to come to me or try to pay. He is currently hiding in my shirt, which is at least him being in contact with me.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I am upping the treat value, procured a snickers for the little guy, so if he lets me pet him like a normal rat, he will get a big time treat, because my rats have an insanely healthy diet. They love their everyday special treats, but this snickers is a Big Deal for Mr. Moose!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry, I've been otherwise occupied but YES his submission was a breakthrough!!!!! 

Rats perform a strange ceremony to tell their alpha that they submit... It looks like a cow tipping over. All you have to do is tap them and they fall onto their sides and roll feet up. The appropriate reply is to preen their belly, if you were a rat.

He needed to challenge you directly and get stomped properly. Once he rolls over and lets you pet and skritch and pet him; he's finally surrendering! Go for it, love the stuffing out of him and make him feel welcome into your pack. Rub his belly and pet him and give him treats... don't back down but now it's all about telling him you love him.

The first message he understood is "I'm the boss and I mean business", next message is "I'm your mom and I love you..." 

Normally once your rat submits to you he will not bite or attack you again, but if he gets bold, stomp him hard. No real alpha rat is going to let itself get bit, ever! But a submissive rat likes a kind and gentle alpha.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And hiding in your shirt versus cowering in the corner? Think about this message... He's saying I want to be with you rather than get away from me. 

Immersion is actually happening for Moose. He's joining your pack!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Ahhhhh I am SO glad to hear this is actually working!!!!! That is literally what he looked like! He did nip maybe twice after that incident, nothing major, but I pinned him good each time, and then rubbed his belly and stuff. He is still not coming up to me or anything, but if he is in a corner, I can pet him, fingers out, no worries about losing a digit! So at least there's that! I assume the proper thing would be to continue? Is there hope of him just suddenly coming around soon and actually liking staying with me? He is still squeaky and doesn't want treats ah this rat is a piece of work!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

He is trying to sleep, but I am continuing to annoy and pet him. He's got to cave sometime!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Up the game and start picking him up out of his corner and try to keep him in your lap and try to initiate the kind of play you do with your other rats. Mr. Moose may not be a cuddle bug. Some rats don't ever get cuddly, but Mr. Moose is going to respect your authority before you leave this room... If he's play fighting now, that's fine, it's just play and a way of communicating with you, but you still win every playfight... if he wants snuggles he gets them and if you want snuggles, you better believe that you get them too. Lots of preening means lots of thinking.. Also good.

Remember you are asking an animal with a brain the actual size of a pea to change it's mind about who and what you are and recognize you as another intelligent being and at the same time you are requiring that he gives up his heard earned alpha status. You are asking a great deal from a very small mind that has gotten very confused over a longish period of time. 

So far it sounds like you have made a lot of progress. And he's getting the message, his confusion might have already become hormonal and that makes it doubly difficult to get through. But if you were a real alpha rat, you would know how this has to end. With you firmly in charge and him loving you for it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And sleep is fine as long as it's on you.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If he's not biting you should be able to manhandle him, if you mean handling him by annoying him that's good if your just poking at him, I'm not sure that's the right message. Start handling him with confidence.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If you are still acting appreciatively or timidly or fearfully you are sending the wrong message.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Yeah, I don't foresee him bring a cuddlebug, but I'd like him to at least give it a try haha. He seems a little annoyed that I have (hopefully) won, but I am continuing to put him in his place and keep him engaged. I honestly could care less whether or not he wants to snuggle with me, yeah id like that, but the simple fact that he is taking me seriously gives me hope that he won't continue to terrorize my sweet little totoro. He is definitely not to the sleeping on me stage, he woke up after I started letting him. He gravitates towards a particular corner, and I have been alternately picking him up and loving on him, which he hates, and petting him as much as I like as he lays in his corner. He is still very much out of his comfort zone, but I am light years beyond what I could have even attempted 8 hours ago!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I have been grabbing with noticeably more confidence, and he squeaks rather angrily, but doesn't bite or fight it. By annoying, I mean constant contact and petting and rubs. I was definitely approaching him timidly before, and am notConfident enough to scoop him up in one go, squeaks or no squeaks. He is still squirmy and wants down, though


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Am NOW confident ***


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well I hope you are patting yourself on the back... light years ahead in a few difficult hours means you are doing something really right. A few hours ago Mr. Moose was on his way to being snipped or isolated and now he's letting you handle him pretty much as you please... I'd consider that an improvement for sure. From here on it usually gets easier. Use a soft reassuring voice to talk to him and let him see you have changed too. Let him think he's gotten through to you too. Try to be reassuring and get him to come to you if possible.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

He is FINALLY tAking his favorite Cheerios out of my hands, whileOn my shoulder! He just climbed down, but at least he is FINALLY eating treats today! Idk how these Cheerios have a stronger hold over him than a snickers, but whatever! Baby steps.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

At this point things get rather fluid and move fast, so I'm not sure if I'm ahead of or behind you. You are making the calls on the ground, not me. So don't let me break your pace.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

In your opinion, is it best that we stay in here and I continue to pick him up out of his safety corner and hold him and pet him? Do you think this will eventually pay off and he will get less scared and learn to love the attention? We've been at it almost 9 hours now, so don't really have much to lose!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Maybe he recognizes cheerios and thinks "at least she's not trying to poison me". Its whatever works from here on out. You are communicating with him. Just a thought, make sure he has water. And if he is well trained a 10 minute poop break is ok if he doesn't have a place to go in the bathroom.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

His progress is at a big of a stand still, he is continuing to gravitate towards the one corner, accept my pets and rubs, but looks about the same as he did two hours ago-defeated, sleepy, and grumpy haha


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

He has had water and food access all day, has drank a few times of his own accord, but only taken food I've offered him, never actually retrieved it himself. I'm letting him off the hook on using his litterbox for the day., cuz he doesn't much care for it at the best of times, and he has scaredy pooped, not lately though, so he's fine in that aspect haha


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And you can try and walk him around your home for a while and see if he stays with you. There's no rule in immersion that you ever have to lock yourself in a bathroom... just that you need to be able to maintain control. If you can manage him on your shoulder or on the kitchen table or sofa now, that works too. The only place it's never done is in his cage.

And even if you quit now... you have made real progress. He has submitted to your authority and he's not biting you and you can handle him with confidence. That's pretty impressive for one day.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> If you went on a date with someone that doesn't speak the same language as you and you wind up snuggling together, I'd say the date went pretty well. Thankfully rats and humans share a very similar body language.


LOVE that metaphor, Rat Daddy!

(I have Boo and Blinkin curled up sleeping on my chest as we speak, so it's particularly apt.)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

On the other hand if you are still making progress take it as far as you can. I usually found that most rats break down in under 8 hours, and that's about the time you started to make real progress. Some rats become mush balls in two or three. But immersion works best on new rats on the day you get them, Mr. Moose has been walking all over you for a while and he's been beating up on his cagemates and he thought until today that he was the alpha.... you walked into every rat owners worst nightmare and you have done pretty well so far.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Lol I love that quote too. I was tossing around the idea of Moose being a Transylvanian rat around hour 4 of our boot camp. Not sure if I'm confident enough with him yet to leave the barroom, because he is still not happy on my shoulder or in the robe I put on, so he has layers. He will crawl around and snuggleUp in it, if I refuse to let him down, but he'd still prefer to be on the floor, preening and thinking. If I do call it a day, do I attempt reintroductions here and now? He has never had a problem with huge frisbee, the gentle giant, but I still worry about totoro, especially with his newly acquired Mooseaphobia


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi Karip,

Hopefully we get LadyFish and Mr. Moose on that page too. It would be nice to get it all done in one session.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well then I am going to keep at it. Your example of him backing tots into a corner and my relenting is pretty much the only reason I kept going this long, and I am so glad I did! I really do think I can make more progress with him, he is getting sleepy and incredibly sick of this process, so hey, maybe he will give in all the way and be my poster rat haha


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

And not relenting**


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You are in charge. If you feel you can handle some group play bring in the other boys and manage a play session. If Mr. Moose gets out of line act decisively!

It's your pack,. and you are in charge.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Ladyfish_xx said:


> Yeah I didn't think so, either! I had no idea it would be this difficult arghh. Well, the little monster is awake and back to his door antics, so I'm parked in front of it again. So you're saying, ifmoose is hiding from me in a corner, I should always grab him/pet him/generally annoy him? I had hoped that patience would pay off and he would stop hiding out, but he is clearly a stubborn little terror. I guess I'm just not too sure if I should be instigating little 'fights', if he hasn't done that all day? Not sure how I can get him to play with me at this point. Well, I have some poptarts he love, but I don't want to give him the good stuff untilHe earns it. He has done nothing to deserve a treat all day, but I have been giving him some regardless. If he actually acts like a well-behaved young man, we can discuss the pop tarts haha but he has been pretty much ignoring the majorityOf what I've offered him today. He's a bit distracted by his thoughts, I guess,Idk.


Ladyfish, I'm by no means an immersion expert, but usually when I put pressure on my rats by picking them up when they are trying hard to get somewhere else, I notice that just makes them try to get away all the more and escalates into frustration. Instead, I try to pet and talk to them where they are at, offer treats when they do come over to me, and eventually they get tired of escape attempts and come to hang out with me. I know Moose is extra frustrated so I don't know if that would do any good, but just for what it's worth. 




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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Oh my lord, this can't be happening! So moose was sleeping, and I very rudely grabbed him and deposited him in my robe, which has worked miracles with his brother rats. He poked his head out a few times, but seems to be pretty complacently curled up in there, SLEEPING?! What!!?!??! I don't even wanna peek in there, I know he's there, but howIn the world can this be moose?!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Karip,

That's how it works in immersion too... But LadyFish tried that long ago and Mr. Moose didn't respond. You see he has formed a self-image of himself as an alpha rat, and he's beating his roommates into submission and he's challenged and attacked his humans. So we are talking to him in rat. LadyFish is his alpha and she's acting like an alpha rat would. She's not putting up with his nonsense and setting the rules. Sure Mr. Moose absolutely hates this idea for now, but either he comes around or he's going to get snipped or isolated for life...

It might seem hard but LadyFish loves Mr. Moose and she is trying to save his life.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LadyFish...


How do I put this clinically? But most rat owners going through immersion report an "Oh my freaking G*d experience" As in where did my old nasty rat go and who is the new cuddly buddy... Sound familiar?


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## Limouri (Apr 19, 2013)

This immersion technique is amazing


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

This is insane!!! He is not cuddling and is still quite squeaky when touched, but the simple fact that he voluntarily napped on my person is staggering. He woke up and crawled out, had a good stretch, and is currently being petted in a corner. He seems more inquisitive than usual, not nearly as scared and submissive, more like totoro, a sweet, once shy rat who gradually warmed up to me to the point of literally being a lap rat. Moose is reminding me very much of a brand new normal rat right now. Doesn't seem like much progress to some, but remember that he started as a freaky little thing who wanted no human contact and would run across the room faster than you can blink, if approached. This is SLOW, but worth every minute!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Linmouri,

Immersion was a technique I learned from our own true shoulder rat Fuzzy Rat. She is brilliant and worked very hard to learn to communicate with me until I got it. With the insights I got from her I actually watched a pack of wild rats try and immerse my 6 year old daughter... Which got pretty scary and we stopped after about half an hour. Immersion is the actual technique rats use to join new packs. Rather than trying to get rats to do things our way immersion is a matter of humans doing things the way their rats can understand..

With all due respect to trust training and forced socialization, rats in the wild get jumped into a new pack, its hard and often violent, but it's over in a few hours... rats don't socialize each other over the course of weeks or months. LadyFish is repeating a rat 'ritual' pretty much precisely the way rats have been doing it with each other since the dawn of their species.

I watched Fuzzy Rat do immersion introductions with me refereeing and she did the last on in under half an hour and she has been sleeping with her new roomie ever since.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Hi Karip,
> 
> Hopefully we get LadyFish and Mr. Moose on that page too. It would be nice to get it all done in one session.


I hope so too... Wishing both of you luck, Ladyfish and Moose!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LadyFish, there are rat owners who never make the progress you have made so far today. And lots of rats get snipped or dumped because of it. This is huge progress.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As Moose realizes you are a friendly sentient being he is going to be less frightened of you. And as he learns to predict your behavior he will become more confident in his new reality.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Moose is currently sleeping in a corner, I have been steadily petting him for at least 10 min, thought out his entire nap, something I have tried and fAiled at numerous times today. Score one for me!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

It's funny, because when I initially go in to pet him when has his eyes closed, (something I wouldn't have dreamed of doing before), he kind of turns like he wants to bite and reprimand me, but smells and gets who I am, the head honcho, and completely backs off and lets me pet him and even drowses off, whereas around hour 2, he would be incredibly sleepy but still lay on his side with his eyes wide open, staring at me. I am really in awe that this is going so well. I had my doubts, especially after 6 hours elapsed with NOTHING, but this truly is slowly but steadily helping. At this point, I will stay in here all night, if it keeps on helping my moose feel more accepted and safe!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Now the most important thing to do is to grin from ear to ear, smirk slyly or outright laugh. Let go of the tension and start enjoying the immersion. As you relax and get comfy with your new BFF he'll feel you and join in the wonderment of your new bond.

Mr. Moose isn't the same rat that went into the bathroom with you earlier today and you are not the strange giant that brought him in. Everything has changed and every day you work with Mr. Moose the bond will only deepen. As his alpha you have certain privileges with include deciding how and when you play with him and who belongs in YOUR pack.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I am just so happy haha, he might not love me yet, but he **** sure respects me more! I couldn't touch this rat before, without loudly announcing my presence and working in his terms. He might still live his corner, but I can snuggle whenever and wherever I want to! This is by no means a complete success story yet, but I am in it to win it now! I don't want to go too far, but thus far, moose is still nonchalantly snoozing while I stroke him from nose to belly to cheek to tail. I only hope this really does stick outside this training ground!! I am so much happier with this outcome so far than I reasonably imagined!! I am staying in here and will keep you posted, but thank thank you all, especially Rat Daddio, for enduring my annoying posts and helping me stick with this!!! Really could not have done this alone!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Part of what took so much time was you not wanting to get bit. And very likely you gave him at least two hours of have it your way time before you really worked up the courage and took charge. But that's absolutely fine. You have to change to become the alpha as well as him changing, and if it took you a couple of hours to change it was time well spent.

Once you start immersion you never know how it will go, and you have been making decisions all day on the fly, some better than others but over all you have been more right than wrong and it's paying off.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In case we miss each other later on... Immersion always ends with lots of snuggles and hugs and skritches before he goes back in the cage. Like the grand finale of a fireworks show you end with a love fest. 

Then the next day you get Mr. Moose out for some more quality time and keep working with him every day. No you don't usually need to do any more all day sessions but you keep building on the progress you have made. Then when you feel comfy about being safely in charge you do the immersion introductions where you bond your whole pack together. And you don't stop until everybody plays nicely with you and each other.

Then you are pretty much the alpha of your pack and if you hear or see and aggression, you just yell "stop it!" and they will. And while every rat will fight for alpha status, few if any will fight to be second fiddle to you.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

These pictures might not look that impressive, but he off his guard for once, finally eating the treats he loves, and falling asleep while I pet him. Truly amazing. His face looks completely different. He looks comfortable and not scared out of his wits, almost like he knows someone is now watching over him. I always was, but he is finally starting to get it!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I unleashed immersion into the world and tend to feel for the people going through it and on the up side I get to share your joy. I realize it's a brand new procedure and it relies on fuzzy emotional factors and rat communication that don't translate into type very well.. I'm gratified you invited me to join your immersion and I am so very happy for your success.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Should he be alone for now? Totoro has been in the CN all day with Frisbee, And my bf says they've gotten along great, as usual. I would leave them together and separate moose, no questions asked, my only concern is totoros healing nose. I don't plan on doing reintros tonight, don't wanna overwhelm the little guy.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I just saw the pics.. very nice. Now these are photos of a rat that you can start to train and introduce to your other rats. People just don't get it; there's nothing you can do with a rat until you are the alpha and it respects and loves you. I suspect that about half the neuters can be avoided with a proper immersion.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If you are too tired it's ok to quit, you have come a long way. But overwhelming the little guy is what immersion is all about. He has to let go of his preconceived notions in order to progress. A baseball bat might not be a conventional teaching tool, but it sure will get your student's attention.

But it's your call, you are the hands on alpha in charge and your say goes, I'm just coaching from the sidelines, but you are making the plays as you see the openings.

The hard and fast immersion rule is that immersion doesn't end until you make real and substantial progress, I think you've bettered that goal so it's all gravy from here on.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Is it normal for him to suddenly be testing me and needing to be pinned more often? He is putting up more of a fight, still not much, and nothing aggressive, but seemed to calm down when I scratched his belly. Perhaps he is just exhausted? It has been a LONG day.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I am just waiting for the moment he suddenly runs up and licks me on the cheek haha, probably not gonna happen, I know


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not up on Totoro and Frisbee's relationship... that's entirely your call, but Mr. Moose doesn't go back with the other's until you immersion introduce him back into the rest of your pack... As the alpha you guide the re-intro's hands on.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

He is starting to actually play with you!!! This is how rats play! Play with him, let him romp with you a little and don't pin him down right away as long as he isn't being aggressive. Chase him around and let him chase you a little... He's got it! and now it's play time!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Your immersion has worked so much better than anything I have tried, and I have tried a LOT with this little monster! Even if our progress stops here, I am so happy I gave it a shot and stuck with it. Hey, after hour 6, it's a breeze!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Ah okay, well I will let totoro stay with his brother, because I think he is happier and will heal the sand in either cage, probably faster with his BFF frisb by his side. Moose already loves totoros bachelor pad, so he will be sleeping there for now. I am happy to hear this all sounds normal! It's been a process, but I think it will be worth it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It does start getting better as you go, mainly because just before the immersion actually happens your rat is resisting for all it's worth and you feel about as low as you can possibly feel. And then suddenly everything changes. And every activity starts to create new bonds.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion was originally something Fuzzy Rat and I worked out for "normal" relatively social rats and was intended to work fast and when rats first came into someone's house... But I've worked with several people with way screwed up rats and it's worked amazingly well for them. It's become the method of last resort not because that was ever what I intended, but because people crazier than myself tried it and had smashing successes. We've fixed rats way more screwed up than Mr. Moose so I'm going to assume if you keep up the good work you are going to have a great success too.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

He fell asleep again in my robe, again, amazing in an of itself. Still not loving me, but at least he is not comfortable around me and knows he won't perish in my presence. Elleeevveennnnn hours and counting.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm pretty sure snuggling under your robe translates into "I love you mommy". Remember depending on how screwed up Mr. Moose was he may not understand kisses or licks yet. You have to do the best you can to read his missives in a context of very few established words.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I am doing my best, believe me! It's just disconcerting how he can go from sleeping in my clothing to back to his favorite corner. He is pretty much voluntarily on the ground, under my robe, right now, cleaning himself. I know this is a great sign. I guess I just need to remember that his progress is going to be very slow, as he was apparently very set in his rats and determined to fend for himself. Times have changed, little buddy, hope it doesn't last another 12 hours!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Set in his ways** man, iPhones make this difficult


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

We are not all the way there yet, but the biggest difference is,I am no longer scared of moose, a tiny little red eyed dumbo. If I wanna touch him, I'm gonna touch him, whether he likes it or not. He wasn't particularly mean to me in the past, but he definitely showed signs of aggression, and I was scared because of that. I used his 'bad eyesight' as an excuse for his temperament, but I'm not putting up with it anymore.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

disconcerting? He's under your robe of his own free will and volition preening next to his alpha mom... You can freely handle and pet him, and he actually comes to you on his own. I'm not sure disconcerting is the appropriate term for Mr. Moose. He's a changed rat from what you have written, be joyful and enjoy the moment.

Be a worry bug tomorrow if you must, but for now enjoy the trip... You have earned it!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

It just goes to show how incredibly slow this process is going for us, that i can offer a piece of a pop tart or snickers bar to moose, or even his beloved kale flavored baby cheerios, and he won't respond, or take the treat. We've got work to do.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Poor eyesight might mean that you use the talk sniff touch approach, but after the sniff you should be able to freely handle him. I had a part wild that needed the talk sniff touch approach but after that my daughter could handle her like a rag doll. 

So immersion has changed the human too?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, you have work to do and today two years after we got Fuzzy Fat she weebled up to me and I put my hand in front of her and she didn't come, then I asked if she wanted to go down to the floor and she walked right on. She apparently learned either the word down or floor. A new breakthrough... even now in the very last days of her life she's still learning and showing me new stuff she's learned. Once you have bonded with Mr. Moose he's going to be amazing you for his entire lifetime and you will be teaching him every day. A great rat doesn't end with immersion, it starts there.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And like I said one day for how far you have come is nothing... think how long you have had him with no progress at all... now that was slow.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Your story about fuzzy rat is pretty much the only thing that has inspired me to keep going haha, I know Moose is not wild, but he was a tiny, scared baby, who was obviously kept alone and neglected at petsmart, before we adopted him. All of your weird theories comparing new rats to adopted kids are suddenly making sense to me, and I really do get where the dude is coming from. Our progress has been hella slow, not very steady, but hey. At least there IS. Progress. If fuzzy rat could adapt from his defensive wild state to loving and respecting you and your daughter, then SURELY my moose can break through one more barrier tonight and start to expect more out of me than just protection!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I just gently picked up the sleeping moose and deposited him slowly in my robe. He is hanging out like he did before, from what I can sense/hear/feel, he is cleaning himself. And now he has calmed down to take a nap. This is about the fourth time he has accepted a nap in my robe, literally next to me and forced to deal with my presence and scent. I'd say immersion is working. 12 hours, yeah, but I sure do love this smart little rat.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Trying to fight through my robe. If movies have any factual base, than I would like to think he is giving it one last hoo rah, before officially giving in and accepting me as his alpha. Good lord, I think I've earned it! I'm probably just delusional after all this time alone, but I hope he really is coming to realize I'm in charge. Bleh. This particular rat might require 24+ hours in isolation.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

After almost 13 hours, currently holding Moose and petting him while he randomly squeaks frantically, I am starting to wonder if we have hit yet another wall, or if I should continue to push him. His current position of taking refuge in the back of my robe makes me lean towards the latter, but he is still so constantly squirmy!! Like now. Is this worth sticking toIt for another hour or two? It has been a long day for both of us, but I am willing and eager to stick with it, as long as I am not overworking my moose and undoing all that we have accomplished today.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

I catch him every time, squeaks or no squeaks, and return him to my shoulder. Making this up as I go haha, kind of intense...:::


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I realize that anyone reading immersion for the first time is going to think I'm nuts. For the life of me, I have no idea why the first person with a vicious biting rat trusted me and locked himself into a room at risk to life and limb on a theory that seems so absurd, but when he got it and came out with a new BFF several hours later immersion took on a life of it's own. Now lots of people are getting it. It took one freakishly brilliant and persistent little rat to wake me up and after that, for everyone else doing is believing.

I can't wait until your other rats meet their new enlightened mom. They already like you, wait until they realize they can communicate with you and you are listening and talking back.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Ladyfish, this thread has been such an incredibly cool read. I'm glad to see you and Moose are happier. 

Everything is great when you have a fuzzy robe, eh?


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Giving him one last good sleep session in my robe, then putting him away. I hate to do it, but it's been almost 13 hours and the dudes got to be tired, and I'm definitely hungry and need some alone time. My bf busting in on occasion and acting like I'm a nutcase isn't helping, either. Using my better judgment and calling it a night, sadly.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Rat Daddy (and Ladyfish, hope I'm not hijacking your thread) - I know you mentioned here and on your own immersion thread that this process mimics a new rat joining a colony and becoming the dominant alpha. Would you mind sharing your sources for that information? (I don't mean that as a challenge; I really love reading about animal behavior and have been trying to find good books that discuss animal behavior of rats, such as studying wood rat behavior and looking at how their tendencies relate to domesticated rats, but I haven't found many resources.)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If he squeaks try and put him down, if he comes back to you... he's talking and you are listening and he's going to come back to you to reward your understanding.... There's a fine line between being the alpha and enforcing your will and actually listening to your rat and showing him you understand him too. I would rather Fuzzy Rat wanted to go into my lap, but she wanted to explore the floor so I asked her if she wanted to go to the floor and she clearly told me she did by climbing on my hand. Ten minutes later she was stomping on my foot because she had to go to the cage to go potty, so I took her there. I'd rather have her on my lap, but that wasn't her plan for tonight and we had meaningful communications. Maybe later she will want to nap on my lap, and that would be nice.


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## karip (Apr 14, 2013)

Gaah, that should read "wild rat", not "wood rat." Darn phone!


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, I am glad to hear someone has been reading this and keeping up with my little battle with my moose! I am going to go with my gut and assume it is definitely time /okay to let moose back into a cage, albeit the quarantine cage tots has been utilizing, which might I add is pretty much amazing in and of itself. The CN is truly staggering, but this quarantine cage gives it a run for it's money, because I love my rats with a creepy passion. Moose is still asleep in my robe, but when he wakes up, I plan on snuggling the crap out of him, as per Rat Daddy's instructions, and then he will finally get to go back to his (hopefully) temporary home! I almost don't want him to ever leave my robe, but I know he needs to get used to his normal life and cage and brothers and pretty much Everything Outside The Dreaded Bathroom.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Karip,

As a former psych major there are in fact some studies done on wild rats and there's even a youtube video on the subject where a group of experimenters set up a rat colony using domestic rats...

But immersion is based on working with a very freakishly brilliant shoulder rat. As well as testing the procedure with other rats, and of course watching and trying to make sense of wild rats try to immerse my daughter into their pack. There are supporting studies on rat metacognition that will back up some of the theory about rats thinking like humans.

But to be entirely honest, I recognized a rat was trying to communicate with me then observed immersion work the way she did it and tried it and then did research to back up or better understand what I saw to construct the theory. Immersion didn't come from researching theory, its the way rats have been doing it all along and a breakthrough in understanding and applying it, the science tends to support that it works but we knew that before we did the research.

I mean think about the theory of gravity, people weren't just floating away before Isaac Newton came up with the theory of gravity. Rats have done immersion between rats always existed, I tweaked it so humans can now do it too. My peculiar understanding of the dynamic seems to help other people replicate the process. Beyond that, have at it, people have been doing research on rats for a very long time and there are studies that pretty much support any theory you can propose.

If a kindly researcher is willing to commit their precious time to providing the footnotes to immersion I would welcome the effort. Actually back in college I used to write the group papers and once I was done, I'd let the more studies types do the ibids... So this isn't actually new to me.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Moose is officially in his bachelor pad, and loving it. It might just be th excitement over FINALLY being out of the bathroom, which believe you me, I am feeling too, or it is hopefully his happiness at returning to a sort of home, right next to th house and brothers he loves and misses so much. I know it is unorthodox and probably awful, but I have stuck my hand in Mooses temporary house a couple of times... He has been incredibly sweet and submissive and pretty much nothing like his old caged self! Yeah, it was probably bad, but I just needed the reassurance that our 13ish hours together were not in vain! I almost miss the confined spaces!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I stick my hand into my rats cage all of the time... the cage is part of your home and it's part of your territory... you are the alpha rat! You should be able to reach into your cage at any time you want. With a pink eyed rat, you might want to let him know its you but after that its your cage not his.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Amelia actually tries to pull me into the cage... which I'm way to big for. Rats defending their cage from you is a bad thing... You don't do immersion in the rats cage because that's before he gets it, after immersion you should be able to enter the cage as you see fit.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Haha well I am pretty pleased with how moose has accepted my intrusion into 'his space'. He has acted exactly like he did in the bathroom, accepting my dominance and allowing me to take him out and love on him. Still doesn't love the lovin, but I assume we will get there. I weirdly miss my bathroom time.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LadyFish it's Stockholm syndrome, Mr. Moose has held you captive so long you actually miss your imprisonment.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Moose is asleep in a box mounted on the wall of his new housing, a box that totoro adored. I got pretty bold and reached blindly in, petting moose just because I wanted to. I didn't even announce my presence, and he was a perfect little ratty. He didn't snap at me, resist or fight my approach, just stayed relaxed and let me stroke him, REMEMBER, hands on, blind sight. I am pretty impressed with my own courage, and pretty impressed with Moose's continuing acquiescence. I think/hope this little guy is going to be worthy of a book deal in his future.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Haha it really is! I think I could live in there forever with the dude! Talk about a wannabe alpha!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So you followed a weird theory proposed by an obvious eccentric, because it was something a rat named Fuzzy Rat taught him and you sat in a bathroom for 13 hours and fixed your rat named Mr. Moose and began a fantastic adventure together...

How is this not the makings of a book deal? Most publishers are going to suggest you file it under fiction. but we know better.

I actually thought once of writing the life and times of Fuzzy Rat but really who would believe in a rat with such a fantastic story? People that have actually met her can't convince their friends and family she's real. And to be honest every once in the while I catch myself doing a reality check too.

It looks like you and Mr. Moose are off to a good start now.

Congratulations to you both on your first immersion. You still have the immersion introductions ahead of you but those should go more smoothly now that Mr. Moose is off the alpha rat kick and you have the hang of the thing.

But for now just bask in the glory, with rat training with a screwed up rat, it rarely gets much better than this for a single days work.


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, I, for one, would buy your book! I have a lot of hope that my moose will do a complete 180 and become my most amazing rat, maybe even similar to your Fuzz. I'm aiming high, because Moose and all my guys deserve it!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes they do... rats really are among the most amazing animals. Intellect and emotions and what I've come to believe is love that they can actually share with us... Humans have trouble loving each other and yet rats seem to do it almost naturally. Yes, I know I'm starting to sound weird again....

Sweet dreams Mr. Moose and LadyFish.


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## Moonferret (Apr 13, 2013)

Ladyfish thats great progress! well done for sticking with it, made for an interesting read too. Heres hoping Moose continues to surprise you. 
All this is seriously making me consider making rats the focus of some of my work at university, they are amazing.


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## YellowSpork (Jul 7, 2012)

This is amazing! Makes me think I should try this with my girl Olivia. :3


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## Ladyfish_xx (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, all is not well yet haha. I am still hosting separate playtimes- one for Moose, and one forFrisbee and totoro together. Yesterday, totoro was hanging out on top of Mooses temporary quarters, and Moose snapped at his tail. So I am definitely still not ready to put them all back together or even try reintroductions, because I just worry for my totoro. Gonna continue to do one on ones with moose though


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Sometimes a rat will "lash out" at something that's crawling on or comes to close to their cage. Not all rats do this, but some do. It doesn't always mean they're being aggressive. Sure it does sometimes, but not always. 

As far as waiting for introductions. That's completely up to you. You have to wait until you feel "comfortable" with allowing them to be near each other. 

My female rat, Holly, has always acted aggressively towards my male rat, Armageddon. I always figured she'd kill him if they ever came into contact. Yesterday, I found out I was wrong. She still act aggressive and like she's going to kill him, when they're separated by cage bars. When they're both together, outside the cage. They simply groom each other. 

Yesterday, my hubby didn't realize I was holding Armageddon. He sort of plopped Holly down in my lap. I expected the worse. They sniffed and then Holly started to groom Armageddon. When she was finished, they both fell asleep on my lap. I let them sleep for about 30 minutes and then put them both away. In separate cages, of course. LOL. 

That's was the first time they've not be separated by bars since Armageddon was younger. 

So, sometimes rats can and will act differently when separated by bars.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's sort of ok to expect the worst when you begin with immersion introductions because you often get it... Or at least that's what it looks like.

Just like Moose challenged you for authority because that was what he was programmed to do by his nature, he's going to go after the other rats during introductions... In fact they might go after him. The difference is that you are there in the middle of the fray. You are everyone's alpha and you control the action. 

There will be fighting, and there will eventually be submission and sometimes you watch, as long as it looks like it's ceremonial... and if it goes over to real aggression you cut in between and take control with as much force as it takes to maintain safety. Forget order, rat introductions always feel way out of control. You have to be thinking and acting fast.

****This is why it was so critical that you became Mr. Moose's alpha before you tried the immersion introductions or he would have bitten you during the excitement**** As the alpha no one is likely to bite you and you can take control. 

The object of the exercise is for everyone to understand that they are part of your family and you are the only alpha in the room.

As to Mr. Moose still snapping at your other rats.... Why not? He is now part of your pack and by his math they are not. So now he has the doubled responsibility of protecting you from those nasty rats in the cage above him. It's sooo hard to be a rat.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Once you feel confident that you have the respect and love of all of your rats you do the immersion introductions... Now if Mr. Moose already has his hormone levels up, it might take a little while for them to go back to normal now that he's not the alpha rat anymore. Otherwise, there's no benefit in waiting. It has to be confusing for your rats to watch you play with another pack that they don't belong to... yes your the alpha and what you say goes, but in nature it's something that would never happen. One alpha with two separate packs is just unnatural. It would be like the same quarterback playing for two opposing football teams in the same game. We're humans and we can understand a lot, but imagine how the fans and teem mates would react if their quarterback changes jerseys every time the other team gets the ball. If you are not a football fan, ask someone who is.


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