# New Fat Rat: Questions?



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Multiple questions. Figured I shouldn't add this on to her health as it more concerns her behavior.

Tenzo was adopted today, a rescue rat. She is 1 year old and severely overweight. I know nothing of where she came from or what she's been through. At the shelter, she had a 10-gallon tank, one hide, a bowl overfull of that awful tropical feista treat food that they sell. Now she has a wire cage, it is a converted guinea cage with levels. She has a tunnel, a box, a hammock, three hangy toys, two chews, and a ball. She's being fed minimal greens, limited protein, and Oxbow.

Well, she _seems_ to be active. However, her girth seems to be affecting her activity level. We played with her rope toy a bit together and she loves digging and burrowing so I gave her a blankie in her box. My main question has to do with how to interact with her going forth -- I don't want to stress her, promote inactivity or tire her out too much.

My next question is that it came instantly obvious that she doesn't know how to work her water bottle :\
How can I help her? I squirted her with it, poked it and showed her the water but haven't seen her drink. She approached it and lapped up drops from what I made but that was that.

Next, how to reduce stress in a new life? She was surrendered a week ago. She seems stressed by other animals, noise, and overmuch movement. No porphyrin! I've covered a tiny bit of her cage for her.

Names: she doesn't respond to Tenzo. Can I be sure it is her name? Do I keep it? Should I alter it? The shelter again had no information other than her health.

Final question is socializing. Since she is being quarantined, my time with her is limited. I know it isn't advisable, but I gave her about 3 hours alone to adjust to everything. In the shelter, she consented to pets with ease and loved them. Now that she's had time alone, I can't tell if she is nippy or grooming me. Her nips are harder than nips but not bites. She stops if I exclaim OW! or say no. However, her nips also find their way from my fingers to my nails where she appears to be doing grooming behavior my rats do. The nips occur when I try to skritch her, but she will except ear scratches. 
I have been approaching her with trust training techniques and intend to immerse tomorrow -- my boyfriend wants involved in her trust so he can have a heart rat . She really seems to struggle to reach her sides, which is where I usually approach to skritch if that matters.

Anything else you think I should know I would love to hear! First old rat, first active female, first fat rat, and first rescue from unknown situations.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I got tempted into playing with her and admittedly got spooked and ended it earlier. She spent a lot of it wandering around and grooming, she let me skritch her favorite places -- her weight is such she can't groom effectively. She nipped me a bit but I realized it was warning nips when she wanted me to stop. I tried to ignore them and accomodate the requests in equal parts. She climbed on me a little. Definitely not bonded, but it was a big step that could've gone better.


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## Crezzard (Jul 20, 2013)

Sounds like your doing well with her. I'd like to see some photos to see how fat she actually is. She will lose weight pretty fast on the new diet. You are supposed to change diet gradually though because the sudden change can make them poorly. X


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh, I didn't know that. What she was being fed is extremely unhealthy though, it's one of those foods that double as treats. She probably wouldn't pick lab blocks over that.


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## Finnebon (Jul 15, 2013)

I think the food switch would be ok and not make her too sick. Just check for constipation or diarrhea. My girl was on similar crappy food at the petshop and I tried to mix her old food with oxbow and she ended up just picking out the oxbow and no longer eating the crap food lol. She ended up being constipated for a while but it eventually went back to normal. I tried giving her baby food and soy milk often while she was blocked up to try to help.

For the water bottle, I've seen people suggesting to put some sort of tasty soft food like yogurt or baby food on the mouth piece and while she's licking it off, she'll discover water comes out too. Or you can always try to buy one of these, I use these instead of water bottles for my boys. You can find them at most petstores, or at least a different brand, but this brand in particular is easy to clean and change the water out of. http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2750996

You should change your name to whatever you'd like it to be, or keep it if you like her name. If she hasn't learned her name, there's no reason you have to keep it. 

For stress you can try to adjust her by keeping her near a busy part of the house, but in a different room. Maybe try a bathroom near the living room or wherever. Keep the door closed for a day or two so she feels closed in and safe, but she can still hear and smell everything that's happening. She might get startled if someone opens the door though for a while. After a few days, try leaving her in the same room, or maybe in a closet or something if it's closer, and then leave the door open. She still is sorta enclosed, but she can hear and now see everything more clearly. After a few days you can try putting her in a room with minimal activity, maybe a bedroom or a family room that people just walk by or hangout in there to read or something calm. She'll see people and still hear/smell lots of things. Then try her in the room that you want her to be in.
I don't know if that will work, but I just thought of it and thought it might be an easy way for her to adjust slowly.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the nips. She might gradually learn that it's not ok if you keep doing the OW! thing or if you can get high pitched, mimic squeaking at her. It took a little while, but this worked for one of our boys who was a nipper and he never bites now (unless he's lunging for a treat and accidentally misses!). Immersion should help a lot too.


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## Crezzard (Jul 20, 2013)

Squeaking when she nips you is not the right thing to do. By doing this your showing the rat that is won and your backing down like saying 'owww get off me you win, you win'. If you pin the rat on its back as gently as you can once its bitten you then your showing it your alpha and it will respect you more.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

She squeaks when I skritch her sides or try to pick her up, so I've been trying to be gentle. Again, I don't know what she came from to end up in the shelter but she is alone and fearful. When she nips at me, if it was because I ignored her asking me to back down I back down if it is some other reason I ignore her nip and keep skritching.

She's calmed down over the night, but I forgot she wasn't on my sleep schedule and accidentally roused her.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Immersion is not working. The more I interact, the more she bites. I just had a fat rat dangling from my hand. She is a perfectly happy rat and works with me unless I try to touch her; she understands when I am trying to show her something or to get in the carrier so we can go to or from the cage. I cannot pin her without her getting at my hand or wrist. If I try to act aggressively she meets me with the same aggression. I have a ton of bleeding marks from her and am getting frustrated and upset. If I try to approach her kindly she will nip hard to warn me nothing more.
She takes treats from my hand, she doesn't fear me. However I cannot get her to let me touch her.

Do I keep going? I have no doubt she will get worse as she has taken to biting me without interaction after intense moments. I can't predict her behavior, she acts perfectly fine walks across my lap then latches onto my stomach. I know it's awful but I've flung her across the room like three times already. I've tried making myself lower to her size, higher using my size. I've tried treats and love, I've tried tougher love.
Could she just be a bitch? She seems happy enough with me if it is on her terms...

I'm trying hard but I feel like she can sense my fear. If she climbs on me I cannot help but tense up. I immediately untense and try to pet her but I get a bite for my efforts. It's hard not to cry, which I know is pathetic, but she was so sweet and is only getting worse. I want to offer her a great life but if she doesn't work with me she will have to live in a separate cage alone and get minimal free range...


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I guess I should whine less and explain more. I have been taking the approach assuming she hasn't met a human trying to talk rat. I try to stick close to her, follow her, keep eye contact and talk slowly.
Mock combat does not work. She has taken to biting me sense I tried that. My feet have marks from her biting while walking around me. I'm too terrified to try cuddling her in my shirt like I did with my girl.

Right now, we are having stare offs, I let her sit in a tent toy thing to feel comfortable and I am at one of the entrances. She has given me a nice bite on my face from letting her explore it :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Everytime we make a step forward, we take three back it seems. Today she bit me for trying to retrieve old carrots out of her cage. Real hard. I didn't touch her or approach her. I'm not going to give up on her I just don't know what to do. She's taken to targeting the softer skin as opposed to my knuckles or nails... She grabs the webbing between fingers and it really hurts. I try not to communicate with her that if she bites me I'll stop but it is hard not to get frustrated, upset, or angry when your hand is now bleeding and all you want to do is remove soiled food. I have to clean the cage soon too.
Last night I was so happy...
I'm also worried what I will do when my boyfriend realizes that cute little rattie girl is actually mauling me. Right now it looks like she will be a lone rat who is kept in a cage except for occassional free range.

When I talk about biting, everything is a "nip" before the skin is broke in my book. Repeated blood-bringing is mauling.


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## CJMoore (Jul 30, 2013)

Oh no, this doesn't sound good. I know your take on the gloves but I am thinking maybe she could try them. When Carly wore the gloves your fear was gone and that helped so much. I know with my kids when I crack down on them they sometimes get worse before they get better.

Good luck!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I just don't want to motivate her to be any more interested in my hands. Because of her abhorrent eye sight, she tends to bite everything she encounters at least once. With my hands, the bites were a clear result of interaction and could be sort of predicted. :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Do vets deal with vicious rats? She's older and I don't want her not to have a source for medical care just because I can't socialize her. I'm still trying I just need to know.


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## Hazeltherattie (Jun 30, 2013)

Hey, first of all thank you for rescuing her!

You're going to want to as soon as you can, buy Tenzo a mate. Rats are very social animals and need a cage mate even if you're going to hold her a lot. Here's an article on rats and partners.
http://www.nfrs.org/company.html

To remove the stress of the change in her environment, one thing you can do is place her cage in a spot in the room against two walls. This will help her feel secure.

Don't worry about Tenzo not knowing her name. At this point you can change it if you like, but it's not a necessity. Probably no one ever taught her her name.

To help Tenzo loose weight, make sure to let her out to play at least ans hour a day in a rat-proofed room.

I recommend buying a book on rats if this if your first owning one. I recomend the book Rats! By Debbie Doccumon.

I hope you have fun with her!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Would she do better if, post-quarantine, I free range her with my neutered male rat? She trumps his size but he is the dominant one in the current pack. He obviously is socialized.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hazeltherattie said:


> Hey, first of all thank you for rescuing her!
> 
> You're going to want to as soon as you can, buy Tenzo a mate. Rats are very social animals and need a cage mate even if you're going to hold her a lot. Here's an article on rats and partners.
> http://www.nfrs.org/company.html
> ...


I have 13 babies and two teen-rats. I was hoping she was sweet so she could join them. I let her out to play an hour a day, usually more since I'm trying hard to socialize her but it is essentially an hour where I pick be ignored or be bit :/


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I can't tell if me and Iris (Tenzo's new name...) are getting better and communicating or not. She comes into the carrier on command. She seems excited to be out free ranging. Right now I've decided not to touch her at all. My goal tonight is to show her if she will speak to me I will listen. For example, she nudged at my arm while I was typing this so I lifted it up and let her on my lap. So far no bites. She's back to wandering on me more. I'm trying to not get too excited because like I said every time I feel we take a step forward we take three steps back.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Like I said, one step forward three steps back. 
Left alone, she eventually came to my shoulder and groomed mr then slowly and cautiously began to brux. I almost cried I was so happy. I didn't know why but this rat was happy to have a human even if I wasn't showing love.
...
Then my dog barked and she darted to the carrier. She came back out but wouldn't approach me once again. I was checking for my pocket to see something (slowly, since she was near) and when I set my hand back in my lap she lunged and bit me.

I just don't know what to do with her.


In other news, she is getting better with exercise. I put a perch in her cage and she is very good at balancing and walking on the narrow wood -- the perch was from a finch cage! I'm hoping that next month I can take her to the vet and get a skinny rat!


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## puphorse (Apr 20, 2013)

For the water issue, you could try going to the pet store and get a water bowl(in small animal section). You just screw it on the side of cage. It would be easier because she just has to jump up and lap up the water until she's not thirsty anymore


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So, first of all it sounds like Iris might be blind or nearly blind which would explain some of it's peculiar behavior... I'd likely start with testing to see if she can see.

Second your rat might have some health issues that are causing her the hostility.

Third and most likely, she's been damaged in some meaningful ways, so fixing her isn't going to be easy. It can be done through extreme immersion. I detail it in the guide and in various other threads.

And lastly... go out and buy a helmet, gloves, oven mitts, thick pants, army boots oven mitts and whatever protective gear you require to safely interact with your rat. My rats recognize me just fine if I'm in a t-shirt or coat, wear gloves or not, wear a hat or not and when I'm wearing boots or going barefoot. Everything will go much easier when you are not getting bit.

And yes, when you are communicating with Iris, she will be happy, but if she's screwed up she will be nearly impossible to control and you have to establish order to stop the biting before anything else. You have no way of knowing how screwed up she is, and if she doesn't even know her name, I'm guessing it's pretty bad and it includes lots of neglect. 

Her behavior will be very hard to change because believe it or not she thinks it's working for her. Immersing this kind of rat is literally risky business so start by testing her vision, and checking for medical problems and then suit up for serious combat and get ready for a very long immersion session.

For most people I recommend against taking on a rat this challenging, but if you really want to save Iris you will have to do what it takes. At least try and do it safely.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I will take her to the vet once the work week starts.
I was trying to avoid wearing gloves because she does seem to recognize me after a slight nip, and will be content with me. This doesn't happen when I'm wearing overclothes; wearing a hoodie got me a nice bite.
I am more and more starting to think she is nearly blind. She has trouble navigating her cage if anything is changed, and is only comfortable free ranging once she's walked the outside walls and found a high perch to see everything by. Anything that moves (made the mistake of wiggling my toys :/) also is tested by her teeth and I found she stops if I say Ow, otherwise she'll keep testing it.
I hope the vet can tell me if this is why she acts so bizarre as well. She really does seem to be happy when she's in control of the interaction, but the slightest deviance from her path ruins it for us. She'll brux occasionally until something in the environment moves or makes a sound.

I tried to get my boyfriend to help and I saw better that she and I have made progress as she wouldn't approach or respond to him. She chipped up a bit and responded when I stuck my head close so she could see me.
Today she allowed me to slowly and gently stroke her side while she was in her cage. She stood stock still after I allowed her to smell my finger and I gently pet her. I rewarded her with a treat before closing the door. She also has begun coming to the door when I approach, as opposed to sitting in a corner and trying to see who it is.
I can't imagine what some awful people have done for her to get this bad and can't help but think how easy it would have been to prevent all of it with just the basic rat care...I cried the other day when I realized she was less likely to bite my fingers fully extended in trust than when I approached her with them in a fist in caution (I really prefer being bit on the knuckle than anywhere else).

Thank you Rat Daddy, I will start slowly introducing nice protective gear for me while we wait for the vet and we'll jump in once she's seen. She acted a lot different when she was at the shelter and I was testing her personality and health, but now that I've got her I want to show her that life can be nice and maybe the big humans aren't so bad.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Today we had a bit more improvement. While I try to keep her on a healthy diet and not do treats, today I was feeding her tiny pieces of yummy seed and nuts out of my parakeet seed. It started with me reaching all the way into the cage and showing her the food. She wasn't too interested but I had her eyes on me. I handed her the treat, then I'd give her a quick pet while she was eating. On the third try, when I had looked into the bag to fish out a yummy she was at the door! I handed her the treat and she darted off. I followed and gave her a quick pet. This continued three more times before I placed the treats into the cup of my hand and set it in the cage. She came up to my hand and sniffed around a bit. I fully expected she'd bite me, either on accident or for having my hand in her cage. Instead she started taking tiny bits out of my hand and eating them. Realizing I wasn't moving towards her or anything, she perched on my fingers and began eating straight from there! I decided no more seed and gave her a quick pet and left. NO BITES! 
Oh, but it gets better. I came back in and as soon as she heard me she was at the cage door. I opened it and showed her I had no treats and she was fine with that. No bites and she wandered off.

Now, I may be just a food dispenser right now but she didn't bite me and she approached me on her own.

Here's where we started: http://i.imgur.com/AHtnmnsh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8hxT3Msh.jpg
And here's where she came: http://i.imgur.com/eONjpLqh.jpg


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Progress is good.... with rats with vision problems, I usually recommend that you talk first so it knows you are in the room, then let it sniff you so it knows the hand is part of you and then call it up on hand rather than grab it...

If the aggression is dominance related you will need to show it you are boss and this can get unpleasant and gloves and other protective gear is to be encouraged. Some rats get confused and think they are in charge, it's either their way or you get bit... this situation is not possible in a human household. They will also often attack or even kill their cagemates who misbehave. 

Fixing a screwed up rat means understanding what it needs and making judgment calls on the fly. If a rat is blind, showing it you are the boss doesn't help if it doesn't know it's you reaching into the cage. And if a rat is being alpha aggressive, being cautious and building trust only emboldens it to bite you more.

Socializing a screwed up rat is all about making the right calls at the right time. And keep in mind, some damage is permanent the goal is to get your rat to a level where its safe to keep around humans and other rats after that everything else is gravy.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well I'm sitting here in my Aikido clothes, a bag of granola and an old towel, but I am happy to report it's been unnecessary! She has certainly chipped up today. She is climbing all over me and taking food from me and keeping an eye on me. I've pet her some and she climbed up to see my face, but she still doesn't like prolonged interaction and nearly earned me the first nip of the day (that's right: no bites, no nips!). She has taken to hiding under my legs which I'm going to take as a good sign -- I certainly wouldn't hide between the giant's legs. She's been nudging me so I try to move over to show I'm listening. I'm still trying to interact with her, but at this point that means cuddling and treats and I'm okay with that.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Cuddling and treats are great. It very much sounds like you are getting through. Remember, take your time with her, and always do long sessions so she knows you are not a hit and run owner. She has to know you are the leader of her pack and you will always be there for her.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Today she got back on my shoulder and allowed my to help her up without punishing me. I can pet her longer and longer before she looks like she's about to bite. I know I should never be allowing her to be the one dealing out punishment, but something about her behavior just makes me not want to become alpha by out-aggressing her. She clearly listens to a few commands of mine (she gets in the carrier to go to the free range area and she comes on my lap when I tap and call). Today I had her on her side while she gave me a rat manicure (she was walking around and laid on her side, grabbed my thumb and began grooming). I can't believe what an amazing rat she seems to be with just the little amount of work I've been able to do; it makes me sad to imagine what she could've been in the right hands from the start.

It's not exactly how things went the first time I did immersion with my other rats butfgw (mistype thanks to Iris) it's going great. See where I mistyped? I was shifting my sitting position to relieve my dead leg and instead of running to hide she came running up and jumped on my lap while I was moving to know whats what.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Rat Daddy, you need to go publish a book on rats.
I'm going to go cry right now. I just picked Iris up. I wasn't really thinking about it, I was just cold and wanting a rat cuddle and just picked her up and held her against my chest beneath my throat. No bites. No mad rat. That was amazing, fantastic, every wonderful adjective you want. Thank you so much.


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## CJMoore (Jul 30, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Rat Daddy, you need to go publish a book on rats.
> I'm going to go cry right now. I just picked Iris up. I wasn't really thinking about it, I was just cold and wanting a rat cuddle and just picked her up and held her against my chest beneath my throat. No bites. No mad rat. That was amazing, fantastic, every wonderful adjective you want. Thank you so much.


I need that book to. His advice has been so valuable to us as well. I am so happy that your new rat is doing so good


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You are most welcome... we were personally blessed to share in the truly amazing life of Fuzzy Rat. By understanding humans and insisting we understand her, she taught us that the basis for love was communication. Between rats, between people and between rats and people. If a $2.49 feeder rat pup can grow up to have a legacy... it's been a very gratifying experience to share it with other people, who are now sharing their lives with amazing and wonderful rats of their own. Fuzzy Rat has been gone for over a month now, we still miss her very much, but with every successful immersion it feels like her spirit lives on in the relationships other rats have with their humans. Honestly, we were very proud of our little girl and I'm more than a little proud of you guys and gals who put in the hard work, sometimes at no small risk to yourselves, to reach out to your rats and build the life long bonds of love both you and your rats deserve.

I'm pretty sure very soon you will find yourselves sharing the the joy your rats bring you with other people too. When you have a great relationship with a wonderful rat, it's hard to keep it a secret.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Another day, no more bites. Today I cupped my hands around her and gave her skritches. I couldn't so much as move my hand around her and today she was my furry hand rest. She's so much more confident in her environment, she's eating and drinking more and is overall a fantastic rat. I can hardly believe what she was like a week ago.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just another update. She melted for pets today, and I can pick her up with ease. She still obviously needs to be warned I'm coming and to smell/feel me before I can handle her, and she gets stressed when things change and starts making those tense chirps rats make. Another great sign she trusts me is she is fetching seed I put down across the room and bringing to eat it on my lap.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You know, when ever I read another success story I recall the late Fuzzy Rat as a pup, trying to get through to me, scratching, licking, kissing, pushing, prodding, poking, pulling and pointing to make me understand that she wanted to communicate. Once we realize how amazingly smart and communicative our rats are, we can reach out to them and build such amazing friendships.

Yes, now we do the skritching, kissing, pushing, prodding, poking and pulling to get through to our screwed up rats... but it's how they understand us.

I think back to how things were before Fuzzy Rat, both in my home and back in the bad old days before the immersion theory she taught us and I still feel so proud of my pudgy tail-dragger. She never gave up and if we don't give up on our rats we can all have the kind of relationship with our rats that she wanted with us.

I really am so happy for you and your girl.... 

Happiness is a warm rat!


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## ilovescience (May 14, 2014)

My heart yearns for such a bond with my girls T.T

But it was very heartwarming to read about your experience!


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