# Help Help Help



## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Welli finally plucked up the courage and introduce my 2 boys to my older boy George, they have cages side by side etc for quite a while now, met between the bars etc.

So all the boys were out, George and Ace got on so well, some sniffing, grooming and bit of shoving but nothing to worry about... great! Then nicky came along pufed himself up to look huge and pounced on George while his back was turned, cue fur flying and scrapping until Nicky ran off. Looking at George he has a few scratched on his back and neck and looks like a claw might be hurt but overall not a massive amount of injuries. George did feel very sorry for himself for a while afterwards (i'd put the other 2 boys back in at this point). I felt terrible! Does fighting come naturally to George? will he know its just about pecking order? He seemed to give as good as he got (hard to tell with 2 balls of fur rolling around!), Nicky seemed injury free though.

So whats the next step from here? Just keep going with it in the hope that they work out their differences and sort out a pecking order? Leave them to relax tonight and start again tomorrow? thoughts?


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

27 views and no advice?


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Could you describe a bit more about their ages and when/how you got them, for those of us who don't already know? I'm sorry that no one's got advice for you, they may be as stumped as I am with certain information lacking. As far as I know, non-serious tussles to establish dominance are not uncommon with rat populations, but they *are* undesirable for we pet owners.

I would personally separate them a bit but keep them in the same room (different cages, perhaps) and let them be exposed to each other for a bit longer before trying to reintroduce them.

It's very likely that both George and Nicky see themselves as dominant and George wasn't about to submit to Nicky without a good tussle or two. However, I'm not 100% sure on this and not an expert so if someone comes along saying differently then I'd consider what they have to say, too. Are either or both of them neutered? Are they intact males?

Non-neutered males are prone to aggression much more than neutered ones and it may be the issue of them wanting to establish their heirarchy. If no one is seriously hurt I would _consider _reintroducing them again, but I would be very careful about it and I would choose an even playing field - a room in the house/apartment that no rat has a claim to.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

George is coming up to a year old now, i rescued him from someone who couldnt look after im anymore so i gladly took him in, after a while he started to pull out fur despite him getting a lot of free roam time so it became very apparent he needed some friends to play with, so i got Nicky and Ace at about 2 months old (now 4/5 months old) from a breeder.
Tjhey have had the cages next to each other for quite a while now so they can get used to smells, also when each of them have their separate free roaming time they go up to the bars and have a look... usually ends up with some kind of boxing! But they were all on neutral ground when they were introduced on sunday. i wanted George to chill last night so didnt do introductions, but toying with trying to have another go tonight.... there isnt much else i can think of to do, have considered getting Nicky neatured as he seems quite feisty (living up to his name, named after the character in casino)! All are intact so far


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

The fact that they are intact males means that the aggression and testosterone is going to be pretty high. For males especially, introducing them when they haven't had previous bonding experience is difficult when they're old enough to have decided how they feel about the world. George sounds a little high strung, which doesn't help because it means he's going to react very strongly to what the other boys do. That could mean that more tussles are in the future. 

I would maybe introduce them while there's an activity to distract them. Someone on the board mentioned that they introduced their rats while bathing them so neither rat was concentrating on the other rat at the time. I would recommend treats but they may become more aggressive if there's food there to claim.

With any health procedure, there are pros and cons. With neutering, there's quite a bunch of them - first and foremost, anesthetic is always a concern whether the animal is old or not. Anesthesia can be a tricky process and it isn't favorable to put them through it if it doesn't need doing. They probably will level out with being neutered, but the surgery stitches can open them up to risk of infection if you aren't diligent with aftercare, and there are much less health benefits from neutering a male than there are from spaying females. So while you get a calmer rat with lower testosterone, they don't really get much out of the process.

Weigh your options before you make a decision. Personally, I believe they may be able to make peace. As I said before, small tussles are common. If you had seen them really going for blood it would be a huge concern, but they may be able to sort everything out. 

On a somewhat unrelated note, George may actually benefit from neutering if you find that his behavior is excessively high strung or anxious. A lot of testosterone raring to go has the tendency to amp us males up. Nicky and Ace sound playful, especially Nicky, and excitable. Still, I would try reintroducing them one or two more times with heavy supervision and a distraction or two (toys that will keep their attention, something like that) before I made up my mind to put them through surgery.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Great thanks for that, i'll give it another try with distractions and see if that helps, surprisingly none of my boys mind water so not sure if bathing them would do too much. I hadn't thought of getting George done to be honest, he seems completely happy then wil stop to have a quick wash and pull fur out (the vet thinks it could be some kind of OCD) but i'll keep trying until i feel its too dangerous to keep trying, it will be a shame if it doesnt work out because it looked like Ace and George were more than open to be play mates


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Continue with patience, they have to have these tussles to know who's boss but going slowly, and in neutral spaces definitely helps minimise the aggro.


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## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Continue with patience, they have to have these tussles to know who's boss but going slowly, and in neutral spaces definitely helps minimise the aggro.

I guess watch the body language of the rat that loses, if anyone seems Really freaked out and is just running away now then that's cue for a break.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

1a1a said:


> Continue with patience, they have to have these tussles to know who's boss but going slowly, and in neutral spaces definitely helps minimise the aggro.
> 
> I guess watch the body language of the rat that loses, if anyone seems Really freaked out and is just running away now then that's cue for a break.



Exactly. Small little fits to establish dominance - as long as no one is really freaked out, and no one is going for blood or to seriously injure - are a pretty common thing when introducing two rats. They're common in packs of wild rats, little skirmishes to sort out the balance of power. Ultimately, though, unless they're skirmishing A LOT (every other minute and you can't get them away from each other and no one's backing down) or actively trying to hurt each other, it's probably something that'll sort itself out.

Just be a vigilant rat parent and keep them under close supervision and be careful when and where you introduce them. Don't do it if any single one of them seems like they're in a bad or overly-hyper mental state (if George is being fussy, for example, or Nicky is way too excited). You want to minimize the amount of chaos to the best degree. Quiet area, distractions (preferably that won't make them crazy or territorial) like a bath time or a toy that they're interested in but doesn't get them riled up, everyone in a good and calm mood.

That's your best bet. And keep us posted.


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## SezSorkin (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks guys and gals, i'll just keep plugging away and hope it all calms down and they find out who is alpha rat


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