# ratty in pain :: pituitary tumor?



## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

So, my ratties (Pixie and Shiva) had a flair up of Mycoplasmosis, and I noticed that Shiva seemed to be getting a lot sicker than Pixie. She was wobbly on her feet, lethargic, and eventually couldn't really walk or grip food to eat it. The vet said it was a possible inner ear infection rather than anything neurological, and they were put on baytril for a week.

Pixie is fine now. Shiva seemed to be getting a bit better on the baytril, she was wobbly on her feet and still weak, but she was active and eating. After the antibiotics were over though, she only got worse. Right now she can't stand or even sit up, she can't eat or drink, she can't clean herself, and she seems to be in constant pain. She is pretty much unresponsive to all attention. The vet put her back on baytril, and she has another appointment in a few days to see if there's any improvement, but they weren't sure exactly what was wrong with her and really, didn't tell me anything I couldn't have figured out on my own.

I'm thinking inner ear infection, as she is constantly tipped over to one side... maybe stroke or seizures? I've been trying to keep her as comfortable as possible. I moved Pixie to a separate cage as she likes to walk all over her and be a nuisance... I wipe her down with a warm cloth to keep her clean, and I have been using and eyedropper to give her food and water. She wants to eat, but the process seems painful for her, and she can't chew anything, so her food has to be almost liquid.

Too much stimulation sometimes sends her into fits of what appears to be pain. She tenses up and paws at the air or tries to drag herself into different positions. She'll roll over onto her back and twist her body so she's bent with her head down by her butt and under her and just stay like that, even if I pick her up. It seems like she's in pain pretty much all the time, and it's horrible to watch. 

Basically, is there anything I can do for her pain? And what is the most likely cause of it all? It seems cruel to be trying to keep her alive the way she is... but I don't want to give up on her if there's a chance she could pull through.


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

*Re: ratty in pain *

For the pain medication, what kind is best? And how much do I give her? I can go pick some up right now.


The vet said she probably needs to be on Baytril for the next month, whereabouts. She just started it yesterday with an injection at the vet, and today I started the oral doses. I'm hoping to see some improvement by her next visit, but do really want to ease her pain in the meantime.

The only emergency vet I've been able to find that will do rats is several towns over and costs about $90 just to walk in the door. The last time I had a rattie emergency we managed to get our local vet to come in to the closed office after hours and help us out. My sister has been going there for years and they give her a bit of special treatment, so hopefully we can work things out with them if need be.


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

*Re: ratty in pain *

I believe the vet mentioned dexamethoasone. She said we'd see what else we needed to give Shiva during the next visit depending on how she responds to the batril alone.

Her weight is currently 0.11, ounces I'm assuming. She's lost a lot of weight these past few days.


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

*Re: ratty in pain *

Thanks.  I'll go pick up some applesauce and motrin for her then.

Although, I did some quick research and it sounds to me like she has a pituitary tumor rather than an inner ear infection.... if that's the case, is motrin a bad idea?


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

So... I'm pretty sure at this point that what she has is a pituitary tumor... which is fatal. Treatment is antibiotics and stearoids to help her live as comfortably as she can for as long as possible, but her quality of life has already plummeted to the point where it is cruel to try and keep her alive. She is miserable. She is in constant pain, she can hardly move, she can't do anything to take care of herself, and there isn't much left I can do for her either.

I think I'm going to have to have her put down. I'm going to continue antibiotics and of course keep her comfortable and spend as much time with her as I can without causing her stress, but... I'll be calling the vet tomorrow. I'm going to try motrin for the night, see if it helps her at all. Anything to giver her relief, at this point.

:'(


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## Alexc844 (Sep 8, 2008)

ema-leigh said:


> Hmm all the symptoms you described didnt seem neurological to me, I would still treat it as an ear infection and ask your vet for pain meds before you give up. Heres some info I found while researching PT's on the Rat report.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I may ask, why Co2 over injectable?


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## KieruNatsuki (Mar 12, 2010)

From what I've read on this forum, it seems that gas is quicker and less painless. Apparently injections can cause the rat to freak out, thrash, etc. Sounds horrible to me.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Injection is really painful for a rat unless they're sedated with gas first... Not quite sure if they use CO2 though, but yeah. Ask how they euthanize small animals before you make an appointment. Don't go if they do heart stick (injected into the heart) at all. If they do gas sedation and then an IV injection then I believe that is acceptable... Gas all the way is preferable.


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

Thanks for all your comments.  It helps.

I do plan to discuss options with my vet. I want to give the antibiotics a chance to work, but euthanasia is something I have to consider if she's not going to get any better. I have had a rat put down with an injection before and it was pretty traumatizing even for me. It was at a 24 hr emergency vet and my sister agrees we will discuss methods with our personal vet this time. If it comes to it, I want her to be asleep when it happens.

I'm going to go in and have her looked at today. All of the symptoms I've read about sound a lot more like a PT than an ear infection. It was a very gradual onset of symptoms up to the point where she lost everything, almost. She lost use of her front legs first, became lethargic and wobbly, developed a head tilt, and then lost the use of her back legs. She now has trouble eating and using her tongue, she is always tipped to one side, one of her eyes (the one on the side she's always tipped on) bulges, and she has what I suspect is a mammary tumor on the same side, that I noticed about when I noticed her first symptoms. The vet never mentioned it. She has no coordination anymore, and she can't do anything but kind of roll around. She can't grip or walk, she has no strength, and when she does try to move she just kind of flops... 

She has had a TON of porphyrin around her eyes and dripping down her nose. Every morning she is caked in it.

I'm going to ask about dexamethasone, if the vet agrees it is PT. From what I've read that and antibiotics are the best treatment, as it can help shrink the tumor for awhile, which should help with her movement. I guess I wont know for sure until I talk to the vet.

Anyway, thanks for all your help. I'll let you all know how things go. :/


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## Alexc844 (Sep 8, 2008)

Oh wow, I didn't know that about the gas.


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## miosgoldenchance (Oct 30, 2009)

Gas is the way to go.

My last rat actually had to be injected twice because the first dose just wasn't as effective as they expected. Luckily, they used the gas to put her asleep - kind of like a coma, they can't feel anything, they're not aware. And then injected her.


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

If I have to put any pets down in the future I'd definitely like it to be with gas, so they're asleep. Watching your rattie take its last breaths while completely conscious and scared is rather heartbreaking.


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

CO2 gas is actually VERY inhumane and I sure hope a vet would not use it. Despite people saying it is a humane way of gasing a rat there have been studies that show it causes distress in rats and can be VERY unpleasant. isoflurane seems to be the gas of choice for most vets I've talked to. There can be a tiny bit of distress in some rats but very minor compared to CO2. The heart stick is a very humane method if used correctly and the rat is sedated first. You then pinch their back foot and touch their eyelid, if you get no response then the rat is out. If you do not feel comfortable doing that then you have have the vet sedate the rat first with a quick injection in the neck, which the rat should barely feel if you have a good vet. The rat is then given time to fully pass out, can be gased extra if you wish and the injection can be done in the liver if the vet is not comfortable doing the heart (since it can be hard to find).


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## Yukki (Dec 13, 2008)

Just thought I'd post an update, so you all know how things are going.

Shiva is still with me. She is still very sick... I'm not sure if I've noticed much of an improvement in her, but she can sit up a little and has a good appetite. She tries to clean herself and move around, but she still has no balance or coordination.

I have another appointment for her this saturday. I'm not really expecting her to make a full recovery at this point, but I do think she might be doing a little bit better.

Also, she ground her teeth down very bad when she was in pain, but only on one side. Her teeth are lopsided now and don't look so good. I plan to have the vet look at them. Is she going to need them trimmed?


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## [x]RaeLovesRats[x] (Feb 7, 2008)

ema-leigh said:


> Co2 is not inhumane if it is done right. They start off in an oxygen tank and then let in a bit at a time. You can watch your rat whilst it happens and they just get sleepy and then curl up and fall asleep. When they are definatly asleep the co2 is turned up and it cuts off the oxygen in the blood and the rat dies.


Co2 IS inhumane. My friend is a vet and would never EVER use the stuff. It should be isofluorane gas to knock them out and then injection to the heart. What makes you think it's okay may I ask? :-X


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## digitalangel (Apr 16, 2009)

Here are some links for you to read over http://clacc.uchc.edu/ACC/CO2.pdf

http://www.animalsheltering.org/res...s_and_guidelines/statement_on_euthanasia.html

I have to question why you would even need access to a CO2 tank


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## LisaLQ (Oct 14, 2007)

A lot of people who question co2 generally have no actual experience with it. I've seen co2 used (not by me) by someone who knew what they were doing, and there was no suffering at all. Far less than with sedation and injection technique. IMO the quickest and most humane methods are co2 or direct injection (which isn't painless but is quicker than sedative injection first).

I wouldnt give up too soon on this rat though - if the antibiotics seemed to be working - try a longer course. 1 week isn't enough to clear up anything (I'd say I was surprised the vet only gave enough for a week but ours tried to give me 3 days worth once!) - she needs at least 2-3 weeks.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Carbon dioxide poisoning is NOT a humane way to die, it is suffocation. Would you put your rat in an airtight plastic box and leave it there to die? If not, why? That's essentially how your rat is dying if you kill it by carbon dioxide.

There is a delicate balance of CO2 and O2 in the blood stream to maintain the proper pH balance. If there is too little or too much CO2, the blood will be too acidic or too alkaline. The body knows this, and will react. Poisoning by CO2 is not peaceful or quiet. The body knows it is suffocating and reacts violently. Biological beings are made to survive, they don't die easily. When suffocation occurs the body reacts violently to re-balance the CO2/O2 ratio in the blood, and as a reaction to symptoms of CO2 poisoning. The organism may experience confusion, head ache, increase blood pressure and pulse rate, and ultimately panic.

Is this really a nice way to die?

Gassing the animal prior to injection may not be 100% fail-proof, but it is better than the potentially very bad side-effects of CO2 poisoning. In addition, it is done in a vet's office. If something goes wrong, there are professionals there to help. If you try to kill your animal at home, and something goes wrong, then what? Are you going to make the animal suffer slowly until it finally dies? Are you going to break its neck to speed up to process? Are you going to close your eyes and walk away and pretend everything went right? When animals die, things DO go wrong, even at vet offices, BUT at a vet office there is a medical professional there to help make things go right and to fix the problem if things go wrong. 

Honestly, what is better: Risking something going wrong at your own hands and live knowing you made your animal suffer? Or take the animal in to a medical professional and know that everything possible was done to make the animal die as peacefully as possible?

When you do take your animal in to the vet to be euthanized, make sure you can be present. As long as you are calm and at peace, this will give your animal comfort. If you don't feel you can stay calm, then don't force yourself to stay with your animal, it can cause additional stress. In either case, make sure you know the exact procedure your vet uses and that you are comfortable with it. An animal that has been properly anesthetized will fall asleep quickly and without much struggle (if any). The actual fatal injection is what will put the animal to its final rest, but while in that sleep state the animal will not feel anything. Even larger animals are anesthetized first, given an initial injection to make it fall asleep, then the final injection that does it in. Because rats are so small, they cannot be injected in the say way, so much first be gassed to save them the pain.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> Im confused though, I did do my research on this and found that on an aeroplane the piolet can control the amount of oxygen and co2 in the passengers section. By raising the co2 gradually he can make the passengers fall asleep - this is a method using during code red emergency situations. When the co2 was increased they fell asleep and then by raising the oxygen levels they slowly come around again. They said they felt no pain just felt sleepy.
> 
> Therefore I assumed this would be the same thing with rats? If controlled properly (by a vet, NOT in my own home!) and let out a bit at a time to put the rat asleep first. Regardless now Im doubting this method now too.
> 
> Is there an option where the rat can be put under anesthetic first? Can the shot be done anywhere except the heart or kidneys?


Can you point me in the direction of the source for this information? I have never heard of such a thing, it actually sounds like an urban myth. Airplane pilot decreasing the oxygen levels in the passenger cabin can actually have very serious health consequences for passengers, especially those who already have underlying health concerns. Such action can actually cause hypoxia and heart attacks, and passengers can die as a result. If this were to happen, the airline is looking at serious lawsuits and the pilot would be looking at losing his job and license. 

When a rat is gassed before injection, it is being put under anesthesia, it is falling asleep and unable to feel the injection. The heart is the best place for the injection because that is where it will be most effective and quickly acting. Since the fatal injection is given intra-veineous, it would have to be injected into a vein, and many veins in the rat's body just aren't big enough.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> What is the gas called that they would use to sedate the rat before the injection. Maybe I dont mean co2 but a different gas I am not sure. I will try find the sites I read this on and post links if I can.


Carbon dioxide is not used to anesthetize animals. Isoflurane is the gas most often used for anesthesia. 

I was doing some research trying to find the source you used that said pilots changed the CO2 and O2 levels in the cabin to put passengers to sleep. The only thing I could find was that a decrease in O2 levels can cause health issues. I also read that pilots are breathing the same air as the passengers. That being the case, if a pilot purposefully put passengers to sleep, he too would be sleeping and the whole plane would go down. 

ETA: 
Here is one interesting site I found describing airplane oxygen myths: http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2009/09/25/askthepilot335


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## xxchelle (Aug 1, 2009)

That airplane thing is definitely an urban myth. Legally they'd never be able to do something like that to unsuspecting passengers. Not to mention, the pilot and crew would also "fall asleep".

The gas my vet uses is isoflurane (same as what they'd use to anesthetize an animal for surgery). We put a mask over the rat's face, and let them slowly go to sleep, just as they would for surgery. We test by pinching their toes, and if there's no reflex then they're deep enough asleep. Then they are given the fatal injection to the heart. I'm allowed to be present for the entire process, which is comforting, and I know my rat feels no pain.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

ema-leigh said:


> I dont think I searched anything about aeroplanes, I was reading pages about humanley euthanising rats when I read that info. It was also what the vet techs recommended at Rutland Pet Hospital, which was the closest vets to us.
> 
> I think I will be asking for the isoflurane then, thanks Im glad I never used this method yet or I would be feeling bad right now!


Airplanes came up because you said: 



> Im confused though, I did do my research on this and found that on an aeroplane the piolet can control the amount of oxygen and co2 in the passengers section. By raising the co2 gradually he can make the passengers fall asleep - this is a method using during code red emergency situations. When the co2 was increased they fell asleep and then by raising the oxygen levels they slowly come around again. They said they felt no pain just felt sleepy.


Just trying to clear up the confusion here.


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## RunkyAnimalRescue (Mar 24, 2010)

LisaLQ, i can't agree at all with suggesting the injection is better then sedating them and then injecting. although it is faster generally to inject them, some vets might miss and the rat will linger - in severe pain. and whether they miss or not, they are still in severe pain. i'd rather they are a bit confused and a little stressed for a few minutes but asleep when the injection given than the last thing they feel is pain.


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## amhunt12 (Mar 1, 2017)

Did you ever figure out how it went? I know this was a long time ago, but my rat is having similar symptoms and the site won't let me post in health yet....


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

This thread is 7 years old, the original poster is long gone. Please PM a moderator if you're having issues with registration.


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