# Rattie Mental Health Issues (Possible?)



## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

It's been a long, long time everyone. I've come a long way from having one just-adult rat and a baby to having a 2 year old Noodle, and a now-adult Gus. I don't know how many of you remember the issues I was having between the two of them, but I ended up having to separate them. Gus is STILL super aggressive, despite neutering, despite trying literally everything. The vet's investigated him several times, and the answer is that we simply don't know what's wrong with him. At this point, I am starting to wonder if Gus has either some sort of PTSD (he was a pet shop rat - I know, I know) or some sort of mental health problem. He's terrified of *everything*, even after extensive trust training. Most of the time he won't even take treats. He is constantly poised and frozen when out, and is frozen half the time in his cage, too. It's to the point where we have to take him out IN one of his pouches - but if we do, he's content to hang out in laps, as long as he is inside the pouch itself!

I even tried sardines after reading about the hormone thing (prior to his neuter), no difference. Treats, toys, nothing. No amount of love will change his anxiety, but he DOES show me affection and love, and he has moments of what I call "clarity" when he's in my shirt - but they are very, very brief. He actually twitches sometimes - maybe a neurological issue? He's a wonderful boy and I think if he could get over his fear, he'd be much happier.

Any suggestions? Should I get Noodle another rat, at this point? I'm so terrified of getting Noodle a new buddy after how badly he was hurt by Gus (10+ bites, several abscessed..it was really really bad and he got very sick for a while). Noodle is showing obvious signs of old age as well, though he's still plenty bright. I haven't neutered Noodle as I'm concerned for his age. He's out with me a good amount of time each day though, as is Gus (albeit in his pouch lol).


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

It is possible Gus has some kind of traumatic disorder, though I can't say for sure. It sounds like you've been very diligent in exploring the avenues and I think sometimes there are rats that are just very damaged. The one additional thing I might suggest would be to consider immersion training--there is a sticky in this section on it. It's not a magical cure, but for rats with serious mental issues it tends to be the most effective therapy. 

If you have the resources to get buddies for Noodle, I'd suggest it. Cases like Gus are rare, so you shouldn't expect a repeat. You'll want to get him two baby companions, though, partly so that they have each other if something goes wrong and mostly due to Noodle's age. I'd suggest finding a reputable breeder in your area, as getting a pair of babies from a reputable breeder almost entirely erases the risk of serious behavioral issues. Pet store and commercially bred rats can be exceptional rats, but because of the background, the nature of their breeding, and the way they're handled, etc for the first months of their lives, they tend to be where you find serious emotional and behavioral issues. Ethically and reputably bred rats will be bred for both health and temperament and handled from birth so that when they come home with you they're already socialized and easy to introduce to your human and rat pack.


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Mental issues in rats are absolutely possible. We can actually study a lot of our own behaviors through rats.

For example, did you know that rats can be emotional eaters, just like us? They even "laugh" when stimulated, although it is inaudible to human ears.

That said, I am not as much of a rat behaviorist as others. You'll definitely want to talk to Rat Daddy, as I'd consider him the expert on behavior here.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well I'm not a big fan of neutering... it can actually cause more trauma in a PTSD rat than it had before the surgery.

Also there is an interesting if not obscure study that showed that hormone levels in rats actually increase when they become the alpha and decrease back to normal when they are dethroned. Basically putting a rat in his place in a healthy pack order with a human alpha can have the very same effect as a neuter without all of the painful surgery.

I was a psychology major and I worked at the infamous Overbrook Mental Hospital before they tore it down and when it still had 3000 patients, so I can tell you a few things about mental illness.

First of all there really is only one concern which is predictability. A human or a rat with a brain malfunction is unpredictable. That's not treatable short of Thorazine. Basically the human or rat responds to unbalanced levels of neurotransmitters or to malfunctioning brain structures rather than to it's environment. In my day we called it paranoid schizophrenia. Basically the rat or human is stuck on a bad acid trip permanently. You show your rat a finger and it sees a snake... find some old hippy to explain a bad acid trip to you if you are still confused.

However if your rat responds consistently the same way to the same stimulus, there's hope. Then immersion theory will work. I'm not going to commit to a single session because your rat was most likely traumatized when you got him and more traumatized by the surgery and somehow I have to think that he can't possibly be getting handled enough otherwise he would be getting over his issues by this point. Otherwise there's someone or something in his environment that's screwing him up that I'm not aware of or a health problem your vet hasn't found. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of anything, just raising all issues that come to mind. 

Yes, rat psychology is very complex, rats are intelligent and emotional beings but even with some long term mental patients I was able to make real progress if they were consistent they could be reached. Maybe it was to get them do go to bed without a fight, or get them to help with chores around the ward, or maybe it was to get them to stop trying to kill me whenever I turned my back, as long as their behavior was predictable it could be improved. On the other hand with a violent Alzheimer patient there was nothing to do. He couldn't learn anything as he had no short term memory to long term memory storage and his rational brain was mostly shut down. So it was pretty much subdue him and then get attacked again a few minutes later when he forgot the outcome of our prior encounter. The hard part isn't getting used to a 6 foot tall man lunging at your throat every half hour or so when his sedatives wore off, it's not hurting him when you pry his hands off your throat and when he rips up you brand new white shirt again. Mental hospitals really were freak shows back then, and after a few years the people that worked there were pretty freaky themselves... After two months there I watched the movie Alien, I actually laughed though the horror scenes, afterwards my concerned friends had to remind me it wasn't a comedy. No doubt working with Gus has been stressful on you too. So if he's predictable and rational you can work with him, if he isn't there's no further progress to be made and you might as well make peace with it before it drives you crazy too, unless there are rattie doses of Thorazine. Thorazine is truly amazing stuff, I'm pretty sure 500 mg will stop an erupting volcano.

Best luck.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks so much for all the info you guys!

Rat Daddy,

Yeah, the neutering was my sort of "I've exhausted all options" kind of deal, but at this point I'm re-seeking options. I just feel so bad for him, you know? As for handling, I work from home so both of the rats are in and out of the cage all day with me. I'll check out the room to make sure there's nothing missing that might be spooking him. Cages are kept clean, I wipe everything down every 2-3 days. As far as predictable? Well, he's predictably terrified of things. He has chomped on me out of the blue, many times, hard enough to make me say "ouch" though I try not to react because it frightens him really badly and then he doesn't come out for 4 or 5 hours. He's never broken the skin on me, but he's almost killed Noodle twice before they were separated (which also started happening out of the blue when he was around eight or nine months old (Gus)...they used to literally sleep on each other, eat together, groom each other, etc. Noodle's a lover, not a fighter, so it was pretty harsh on him when it happened and ended up costing me like 600.00 in vet treatments between antibiotics, vet visits etc. (they abscessed). 

Don't worry about accusing - I'm well open to the fact that I've done something wrong here. And if I have, then I'd rather hear it and help him find his way.

If I had to give you a time he's being handled each day, it's at least 2 hours, if not more. I do switch them out but I try to wash my hands inbetween/change my shirt if Noodle happened to pee on me or poop on me or if I think I smell like him. 

Could he be part wild? I personally think he's just a rex. but I've reeeeally wondered if that's not some of the issue. I know for a fact someone local here WAS Selling half wild/half pet rats (because her rat "kept escaping and getting pregnant" but I wouldn't *think* the shop I got him from would buy from someone like that - who am I kidding, of course they would. This is probably somewhat my fault for even buying a pet shop rat but my heart won that one.

I can tell you this: He turned out to be too young when we got him. However he was my first true baby so I misjudged the size. Vet thought he was about 3 weeks; I actually kept him in my shirt for two solid weeks and nursed him on formula for one of those weeks when we first got him. I'm not certain whether he needed the formula, but I don't think it hurt and he *really* enjoyed the process. 

He will twitch and start when you are just speaking to him - even in a low voice. If I cough or sneeze, forget it. When I watch him, it's almost like he's in panic mode constantly. I can see the whites of his eyes pretty much all the time because he's so "alert and wide-eyed". Hmmmm, just thought of something, do rats ever have thyroid issues?

Another thing I've always questioned is whether he was maybe a snake feed attempt that failed or something. I have heard of that happening before.

He's not the slightest bit food motivated at all, so that hasn't helped. Not even slightly. 

I'm going to attempt the immersion therapy. I mean, at this point, I don't think it can do anything bad and even if it helps a small iota, that's a boon.

I have more to say but I desperately need to sleep as I've been awake far too long working. I will touch base with you again in the morning when I have some time.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My part wild rat was wired hot, and she was vicious towards people she didn't know and enjoyed killing small animals, and likely eating them. She only ate things she tested at least several hours before. But she was firmly bonded to us and kiddie safe for my 6 year old. 

As to other rats she let herself be powergroomed and even bit by her roomie... She only struck back once. One morning we woke to find two deep puncture wounds, one on either side of our other rat's trachea. Seeing the bite on her backside, I really have to give our wild child amazing respect for not just ripping out our other rat's throat and finishing the job with one bite. Yes she tore up my neighbor's hand, and could leap from my desk to my face, and run straight up painted walls and she went renegade and lived outside for 5 months on her own, but she was a very good girl and more predictable than any domestic rat we ever had. If I raised my voice of if something dropped she could be relied upon to disappear into thin air for several hours. Otherwise if I called her softly she would turn up out of nowhere in under a minute. If I introduced you properly she would let her pet and skritch her, if not you were going to bleed a lot if you tried to grab her. She acted like a little wolf plain and simple, nothing about her said confusion or mental illness. She was easily the sharpest looking and acting rat I've ever seen.

Gus sounds like he most likely had problems, but it sounds like they were compounded by trust training theory. Trust training is based on the worst possible foundation of myth and misinterpretation of rat behavior. When a rat begins to challenge it's pack order rather than put it into it's place fast it has people squeaking and backing down... This only serves to embolden the confused rat and cause it's hormones to rise. An alpha rat with a full load of hormones is ready to lead and defend his pack against constant enemy threats and environmental hazards and fend off internal challenges that arise and immerse new rats the come to join the pack. It's ready for action. Sadly in a cage there are no enemies, no challenges, no hazards to overcome and it's like racing an engine at full throttle, gear engaged with the brakes on. Immersion theory would have you reassert your alpha status in no uncertain terms and force his hormone level to return to normal before everything goes too far and damage is done. Imagine how confusing it is not to understand your place in the pack hierarchy. 

You have a lot of damage to work through. But first spend some time reading immersion for the theory more than the mechanics. The theory is the crazy sounding stuff, if you have any doubts. The stuff about you being the alpha to your pack and what a rat expects from it's alpha, the stuff about communication and understanding what your rat is telling you and responding like a kind but firm alpha would is critical to evaluating and responding to Gus's issues, as is the part about addressing his needs... 

I included the theory because immersion isn't a mechanical approach, it respects a rat as an intelligent and emotional being that can communicate and understand.

Working in a mental hospital was all about structure and predictability. Patients knew what to expect every day so those with limited capacities could function within the guide lines of their environment. I once changed the channel from Sha Na Na to something worth watching in the day room and almost got killed by a mob of patients I thought were catatonic. Sha Na Na was on every Wednesday at 8PM and any minor deviation in the schedule created chaos and anarchy on the ward. You are going to have to try and structure Gus's world as much as possible while he is so confused. He needs to know that the same action on his part solicits the same response on your end. So when he tests the world it also becomes predictable. That's not to say you do trust training again! Things can end predictably unpleasant if he does something wrong, but when he's good he should be able to predict happy consequences too. 

I'm not going to say that a single immersion session is going to fix Gus, but it could signal that things are changing for the better for him. So basically before you do immersion, first plan out his new lifestyle after immersion as in his new schedule and how your approach to handling him will be supportive and CONSISTENT. Work out your basic translation table. If he does something, what does he mean by it and what should you do?, kinds of things.

Then start the changeover to the new interactive approach in a long session. Engage him, get him to act, and show him consistent responses that he can understand. Try to make progress in the immersion space and then reinforce it daily in his environment. A special needs child can be managed given the right circumstances, I have a client who is autistic, he's also a very good accountant. His wife manages his home environment and he keeps a very organized office and he's very good at what he does. That's what I mean by "if Gus is predictable he can be improved".


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

You know, he *is* mostly predictable. I can predict that certain things will scare him, I can predict that him being in a safe pouch while out is what he prefers - those things are always the same. So I guess that, yes, he is predictable. Maybe the things I'm identifying as "unpredictable" are simply me not understanding what's going on. He's definitely the first rat that I've had that's been like this, all of my other rats were adults or nearly adults when I got them and all were already plenty content and socialized save for a few small issues. Perhaps part of the issue is that I'm expecting him to be "like a rat", but "like a rat" to me is interpreted as something that's not entirely accurate. If that makes sense, since it's based on my previous experience with rats.

I'm going to have a talk with my partner when she gets home from work, as she is also a part of their lives, too, albeit she works outside of the home so it's not as often she sees them. I know she'd be willing to get on board, though, and I think for this to be effective we should both be on board with all ideas (so one of us isn't contrasting what the other is doing). 

It might be a good idea to make his cage more interesting too - they have a constantly rotating group of toys and hammocks (mostly so I can wash what I can, because Gus, ironically, is also one of the *messiest* rats I've ever seen. He poops with abandon everywhere, and pees the same. Food goes everywhere too, so I just usually wipe the cage out every couple of days and replace with fresh stuff. Is that an issue? Maybe I'm doing it too often. There seems to be no particular "area" with him. He does get playtime out but like I've said, at this point, it's so upsetting to him to be put down in a room that he either just freezes or even squeaks or he just runs back to the cage.

I think I'll spend at least today reading up on this stuff and getting a plan in order. I'll get back in touch with you once I've done some reading


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## Debra (Apr 28, 2013)

This might be a bad idea but I know rats are more terrified alone. I know you've had him neutered. Do you think he would be aggressive with females? I would certainly only do adult females.

Like I said, this might be a bad idea but it is the only thing I could think of that hasn't been done or suggested before and I know you are feeling out of options.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Nope, my rats have never been interested in toys, they steal stuff they like or to build nests with. As to cleaning, rats don't like the smell of clean, they prefer the smell of themselves and places they know. I keep cleaning to the essential minimum. There's a reason your rat has scent marked it's cage, and it wasn't so you could test your skills with Lysol. 

Gus would be better off with fewer toys that he knows will be there every day and in a cage that smells like home.

As to putting him with other rats.... Not yet! Gus is having lots of issues and needs to bond with his human alpha(s). He needs to rebuild trust and to get a sense of security and routine. And he needs lots and lots of one on one time with his human parents. Dumping him into another group of strangers is way going to put gasoline on his fire.

As to what you think of as a rat. Our second rat turned out to be a true shoulder rat. She's probably nothing like your rats. I can leave her alone to munch weeds and scavenge food leftovers in the grass while I go off and train my other rat, come back a half hour later and she's still busy exploring... and that's at over two years old and being more tumors than rat. I've never had or even met another rat like our Fuzzy Rat. If I had treated her like Gus she might have gotten twisted too. Most of the time I was training her I lived on the edge of sheer terror as she just had to try and do the craziest things, and run away and come back... she even once swam away to explore a shrub planting. But she came right back after she finished... and she was wet and it was barely 60 degrees outside and she leaked pee for a week. 

On the other hand half and hour outdoors and Amelia's in the midst of an existential crisis and digging a burrow under a rock. And we had another rat that was part wild and absolutely nothing like either Amelia or Fuzzy Rat. She was wired super hot and lurk in shadows and watch people from high places and loved being invisible and popping up out of the ether... very much like a real rat. 

Gus is an individual, he has his own needs. He's not like Fuzzy Rat or Amelia or our wild child or any other rat. He is a unique little personality. Immersion deals with communicating with your rat, and understanding him and satisfying his needs. That's the CORE difference between immersion and all other approaches that try to socialize a rat to what you want him or her to be. Rat socialization isn't about you, it's about your rat. 

So who is Gus? Ask yourself that question. How can Gus be the best Gus he can be? How are you going to reach out to him and show him it's safe to rejoin your pack? And how are you going to support him and guide him as his Alpha parents? And remember, it's step by step and consistency from here on out.

Yes some rats like shoulder rats thrive on novelty and change and constant challenges, but they all are anchored to their human bedrock. Fuzzy Rat goes back to the car or the house when she's ready on her own. At the core of her exploration, she always looked backwards when she was carried on shoulder so she always knew her way home. Every rat needs that love and consistency in it's life, even the most outgoing shoulder rat. Gus isn't coming out of his shell until he feels it's safe, safe means orderly, loving, friendly and familiar.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

Okay, so we have been digesting this stuff (the guide is large, so I'm not rushing it - I want to be sure I grasp everything). But I've sort of been trying to take a different approach to Gus the last couple of days...and I *might* see some improvement! This morning he popcorned right across the cage floor to greet me - he's NEVER done that before. This morning, he came out of my shirt and walked to the window by my bed. He froze up a bit, but the important thing is he did it HIMSELF, which is also really unusual. Although he was constantly looking back for me, and after a couple of moments, ran right back into my shirt.

The funny thing is, all I've really done is change how I think of him, but it must be coming across in how I present myself to him. 

Will update with some questions and thoughts later on today!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, you have done the one single thing that changes rats most. You have changed your mindset. 

I was a psychology major who had read all of he studies, I knew everything there was to know about rats, and I picked a rat for my daughter especially because it should have been an easy "pocket pet" and much easier than a dog....

Then came along a silly stubborn little mismarked feeder rat... ( and I know this sounds crazy)... but she kept trying to reach out to me. She even gave me kisses and licked me when I was doing what she wanted. Now, I repeated my behaviors and she repeated hers and eventually the light bulb went on. All of the stimulus - response stuff I learned way back in the 1970's was incomplete and I started doing more research on metacognition in rats. And that model of rats actually thinking like humans actually began to support the behavior I was seeing in Fuzzy Rat. Which took me way back to my college days when my interests in motivation research really were frowned upon by those who believed that nothing should be inferred about animal motivation by it's behavior. 

Yes, it took me a while to accept that a silly little rat might be reaching out to me, and that it might actually be thinking and have feelings and be looking for ways to make me understand it, but once the light bulb went on everything changed. I began to understand how rats actually see the world and how important their relationships are to them and what they expect from other rats and their humans.

Everything from immersion to shoulder rats became not only possible but doable once I opened my mind to it. If you have changed your mindset, you are unconsciously and intuitively responding to Gus in a way he can understand now and you should be able to start understanding him more every day. Just keep trying to reach out to him, and listen to him. He may not always be saying what you want to hear, but he's telling you what he needs and wants from you.

Immersion is a philosophy and a mindset... once people "get it" it almost spontaneously works. Being metacognative like us rats make for a very complex and interesting dynamic when we get together with them, and as you may have already noticed subtleties count. 

One last remark... it took me quite a while to grasp how a small creature can have such a sophisticated brain. Well they lack in some of the frills our brains have, like the ability to do advanced mathematics, but other than that their brains have been evolving far longer than ours. Rodents pretty much date back to the age of the dinosaurs. And if you think about it, your iPod has more raw computing power than an old mainframe that took up a whole building. And as rats don't live nearly as long as us, you don't need to store 80 years of memories. Through efficient design, eliminating the bells and whistles and reducing the need for decades of memory storage there's no reason a small metacognative brain can't be able to communicate, feel emotion and learn as well as have a complex firmware foundation. 

Let's face it, rats are the second most successful species on this planet and a superior brain is about the only thing they have going for them. 

I know it's a huge leap of faith and it challenges much of what has been written about rats for decades. But so far the evidence seems to be supporting the theory. Perhaps it only took one stubborn little rat to keep reaching out and one human to write about it to give the snowball a push down the hill... but here from the epicenter of the change, it's been gratifying to see how many rat's lives and that of their humans, have already been improved by a little painless change in mindset.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

Okay. So we haven't gone into full immersion yet. But Gus is...a little different, as I said. An odd thing happened today, as well. He was out with me, and we walked by the cage. He saw Noodle in the bottom (it's a stacked double ferret nation). Instead of becoming instantly vicious, him and Noodle sort of sniffed noses. Noodle did some prancing around in the cage, and I admit that I didn't move closer (Gus was sitting on my shoulder) than what would keep a couple of inches between them, and that may have been wrong. But it seemed...playful, almost. Friendly, even. Now, they are laying in the same part of each cage, pretty much as close as they can get to one another without physically seeing/being with one another. What the heck?? Neither seems particularly stressed out, which is WEIRD.

I did realize something, though, obviously as sweet as Noodle is, he's still got some Alpha in him, too. 

So, of course, immersion for both of them.

However, I have more hope than I did two days ago! And that's something.

I still need to work out my nervousness about the issues they had before. When I say Noodle was almost killed, he really was almost killed  There were a few bites awfully close to puncturing something important, although I'm not convinced that he truly meant to "kill" Noodle. With the infection and abscessing...well, I'm sure you can imagine how awful it was (including two sudden emergency vet trips due to me waking up and finding HUGE, golf-ball sized abscesses).

It would be nice for Noodle to have company in his old age, too. I was noticing how he's getting a tad bit "old" in the face the other day. But when I got him, he was living in a single level hamster cage and basically ignored - I'm very surprised he's as friendly as he is, but I think the mother of the child who had him paid at least some attention to him. Him I can read very easily. He's surprisingly hyperactive for an older male, though he's been slowing down - it's just his personality. He's playful, likes to steal things and wrestle with your hand etc. We used to spend hours playing what I would affectionately call "bop the head" - which sounds worse than it is, lol. Basically I had a cardboard box, banana box I t hink, with those little round holes all around it. He'd get under it through the biggest hole, and pop his head out until I gently "bopped" him on the head, then he'd pop out of another hole. He loved it. Unfortunately, now he gets tired pretty quickly so our games are more subdued.

ANYWAY this leads me to my point - I think when Gus attacked Noodle those times, it might have changed how I felt about Gus, whether I like to admit it or not. Maybe it was subconscious, maybe I was in denial. But I think it definitely made me nervous with him with probably didn't help ANYTHING. I've got to actively change that, and maybe that's part of what's going on right now. I'm not rushing things just yet.

So here I am with a two year old and a one year old, starting from scratch again. But this time I have a much wiser outlook on things, and a whole forum of people to help out :3


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I understand exactly what you have, two rats at different stages of life. Fuzzy Rat is, simply put, on the intellegence level of at worst a dog and at best a very young child, but she is badly debilitated by tumors, general weakness and old age and Amelia who is quite honestly a very bright and loving rat after 7 months of neglect. They are almost different species. But Amelia is way stronger and faster and more agile than Fuzzy Rat. In a fight, even the briefest one, Fuzzy Rat would get hurt badly and she knows it. When Fuzzy Rat annoys Amelia, she rolls over onto her side as quickly as possible and Amelia grooms her belly. 

Now this might sound strange, but Amelia isn't the Alpha Rat. I and my daughter have always maintained that role. Literally before Amelia ever saw her cage she immersed with us and then Fuzzy Rat. At no moment was Amelia ever confused as to her place in our pack. And because she never got confused about her role there was never any aggression.

I always worry when people write that one of their rats is the alpha or has alpha tendencies. Seriously there is a whole mindset that goes with this status for rats. In humans we see this with mall cops... You hire some poor kid for minimum wage and pin a toy badge to their chest and suddenly they start pushing people around. To some degree this is true with real cops too. Many police officers wind up divorced because healthy relationships don't survive the authority complex that a little tin badge creates in people's minds.

Now the badge and uniform come off, but the little mind tweak doesn't. Mostly it's the realization that they aren't in charge and all powerful that tends to bring more seasoned police officers back to earth and return them to the human race. Such is true for rat's too. So when a rat get's the Alpha bug he's in charge and demands loyalty, and if he's in a cage with other rats that are already bonded to you he's going to do what it takes go get his fair respect, even if that means killing all of the rats that otherwise belong to your pack who won't accept his status. In an alpha rat's brain, you either belong to his pack or you are an intruder and his mortal enemy. As Noodle loves you and is bonded to you he wasn't going to change his allegiance and nearly died for it.

This goes to the issue of mindset. When you take the mall cop's little tin badge away, he's just another high school dropout again. It doesn't take long for the wardrobe change to change his world view. Usually about six seconds after being fired he's back to accepting his place at the bottom of the food chain and his hostility and aggression are gone. On his way out the door he can calmly watch as a kid spits his gum on the mall floor and not even react. Once an alpha rat loses his status the weight of the world is off his shoulders and he's back to being an average happy well adjusted rat again. 

I suppose if you brought home a pack of rats and didn't interact with them so that they could all devise their own pack order it might work, but as soon as some of the rats bond to you the alpha is going to get freaked out and the fireworks will start. So it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. Either you are everyone's alpha and you maintain order or you keep your hands off and out of the cage.

I don't support the theory of exhibit rats. I believe in rats as pets and human companions. So that's why I write that the only alpha can be the human. Once you take Gus's tin badge away and he bonds to you and joins your pack the rat on rat hostility should be pretty much over.

Once you are reasonably sure both your rats are on the same page and are bonded to you as their only alpha, you can supervise re-introductions during play time. You stay super close and keep your hands where you can slap the aggression out of either rat who gets confused. Once you know your rats behavior, you can usually tell when a rat is about to get aggressive and stop the action there, but that's not to say you have to end the play session. You just manage it and woe be to the rat that pushes back at you.

Once you realize that your rats are actually thinking and that they have a mindset too it's all a matter of communication to get everyone playing nicely together.

Basically, although I'm not there, what you seem to be describing is that Gus is now bonding with you and giving up his alpha responsibilities and looking to re-join the pack he belongs in. Naturally you don't want Noodle to get confused too. So stay on top of the situation, supervise closely so no one gets hurt, and you might be surprised how well this can all end.

Best luck.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

So, I have some good news...and some kind of sad news 

The good news is that Gus is currently asleep, on my chest. I've discovered that for some strange reason, old country ballads help him to calm down - lol. *shrug* he likes Bonnie Raitt in particular - to each their own, at least he picked a classic. The mere fact that he's asleep on me will tell you how far we've come. 

Unfortunately, I discovered a mammary lump on Noodle just this morning. We'll be going to the vet; I'm hoping it's just an abscess from a mosquito bite or something, although I don't think so.

We did have a brief, successfull playtime the other day with both! One (very) minor scuffle which I intervened on almost immediately, and Gus then looked at me like I had six heads...lol. But they both immediately stopped what they were doing and paid attention to me.

However, until I know what's going on with Noodle, I think total reintroduction is going to be out of the question. If he's sick, my main focus is on getting him better first. We'll know more in the next couple of days. For now, brief playtimes and happy times for both is fine, I think


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's good to be the alpha! You're in charge and your rats are happiest when there's order in their lives. Gus is learning his limits and Noodle gets to feel safe with a cop on the beat.

As long as Noodle is feeling well, you can continue to extend the play times and continue working towards your rats living together with you as the alpha. Rats will often comfort their sick packmates so if you can get there, it's to be encouraged. If Noodle is in pain, he might get nippy and withdrawn... you have to play it by ear.

So the theory has it to continue to form your pack around you, but in practice you have to address your rats medical needs and do whatever it takes to keep them healthy as best you can first. Both my rats have mammary tumors and still comfort each other.

Best luck.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

Unusual thing happened last night: While Gus was out, I noticed he was drooly (this has been an ongoing issue with him; we've/vet's never found the cause - he salivates much like a dog does when he gets happy/sad/excited/worried/emotional), and thought I would double-check his teeth. When I gently scruffed him to look, he squeaked big-time, and protested. A thought came in my head about the whole alpha thing. So instead of not scruffing him, I held him, gently scruffed but supported, until he stopped and went still. Laid him on his back and scratched his tum...but he just laid there! Tried the scruff again, same protest, did the same thing. We actually ended up going through about an hour and a half of that....and now I have a DIFFERENT RAT! No kidding, he will literally flop over in my lap now and go to sleep. He's still got some anxiety issues related to external stimuli, sudden noises, etc - but as far as me and listening to me, and responding to me, our relationship is totally changed. I barely even have to direct him now, he just listens. He's actually asleep in my lap right now - ON HIS SIDE. 

I have a feeling what happened was, in fact, a sort of mini-immersion by accident.

As for Noodle, he's on a course of antibiotics. The vet noted that the spots where he has two lumps at the moment were literally exactly where his old abscesses were after his fight with Gus - she suggested that perhaps something, a mosquito bite, who knows, re-triggered the infection somehow. IF that doesn't work, we will reassess - he's quite cranky because he HATES meds, and they tend to upset his digestive system the first couple of days, but he's also doing better 

I have a changed couple of little buddies, and it's so, so nice to see Gus's confidence soar  We will be continuing with bonding and all of that good, more fun stuff 


Seriously wish I could share Gus's little sleeping self right now, but unfortunately no camera at the moment. Picture a little rex rat, lying sideways, silvery belly partially exposed, little bit of random drool coming from his mouth lol.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats often drool as a sign of overheating. If it's over 82 degrees turn on the AC immediately.

As to making more breakthroughs after immersion, yes, sure and absolutely. You kicked the door open in your immersion session and every day you are likely to make more progress. The key is that you got Gus to the point where you could make progress and your mindset is allowing you to make the right choices now. Gus is anxious and you aren't pushing him away, rather you are holding him close and reassuring him... Good call! and moreover Right call! 

If he were anxious and you rejected him the opposite would have happened, he would assume you don't love him and get more anxious and more angry. You see, through immersion and immersion theory you guys are now able to talk to each other and respond to each other in the way you both need to treated. Gus is anxious or in distress, you show him love, and he shows you love in return. It's very basic communication on an emotional level, but isn't it exactly what you would do with a small child?

I'm glad to hear about your progress; keep us posted.


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## Artemissa (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Ratdaddy,

I dunno if you happened to see this, but we have had a minor setback. Gus had a seizure today. I've posted about it here:
http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?84962-Help!-I-think-Gus-had-a-stroke.


 I actually thought he'd had a stroke at first but he is coming around. Thought I lost him completely for a good minute. He's suddenly immensely clingy and cuddly, so he's been sleeping on me ever since.


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