# Vicious Rat and Immersion



## Nieta (Dec 1, 2013)

*Warning: There are images of very severe rat bites in this post.

Summary: Terrifying and disheartening first rat ownership experience, many injuries, possible success with immersion.*

This is going to be a long and emotional post, so please bear with me.















Last week, I posted joyfully about my husband and myself adopting two active, relatively young, well-socialized male rats from a local shelter. For the last 6 days, we have showered them with love, treats and care, and really enjoy watching their antics. They haven't bonded with us, but one of them (Castielle, dumbo siamese) happily clambers up onto our shoulders and will fall asleep there. Mimo, a black berkshire, doesn't particularly care about us either way, but will eat treats and snuggle with his brother. We figured that it is just a matter of time before they both come to see that we love them and find them so appealing and adorable.

They'd originally been given to the shelter because their previous owners claimed that Castielle had been the aggressor when fighting with Mimo, but apart from posturing and chasing and tussling, they'd end up in the same hammock over and over again.









These are our very first rats (both of us have had cats all of our lives, and I've had gerbils, mice and rabbits), and they live in the lap of ratty luxury (Critter Nation, homemade hammocks, a great view of Montreal, etc.). We did a lot of research before purchasing the supplies and adopting the rats, and I'm not sure I've ever looked forward to something as much as I looked forward to taking these little guys home with me. I counted every single hour.

And take them home I did, last Monday. The foster family hadn't cared for them well, and they were stinky, had diarrhea and were incredibly dirty, but they were bright-eyed, active and playful. I was slightly shocked at their state and desperate to give them a better home. After a couple of days eating Oxbow and plenty of fruits and veggies, they were SO much cleaner and smelled almost pleasant. Every night after work, we come home and let them play for hours on the bed.

Life was grand.

Until last night.

I reached into the boys' cage and gave Castielle a little skritch, which he appreciated as he settled in his hammock. We'd already spent a couple of happy hours with them during playtime, and I was just looking in to say goodnight. I was going to do the same for Mimo before heading to bed, and I held my hand out to him. He came out of his hidey hole, sniffed, and CHOMP. A pinhole bite, leaking blood. Hurt, I closed the cage and went to wash my hand, figuring he'd just been surprised or I'd woken him up or invaded his space. He'd be fine in the morning, since he'd been calm, sweet and gentle all this time - it was more boisterous Castielle that I'd expect mischief from. I checked on them in the middle of the night, and they were snuggled together in the hammock, fast asleep.

This morning, we woke up to give the boys their weekend morning playtime (we decided to give them extra playtime on weekends, since we're usually around). I skritched Castielle, which he enjoyed, and reached down to do the same to Mimo. He sauntered over to my hand, appearing quite casual and calm. He sniffed once, and then without warning, delivered a vicious, lightning bite, tearing a chunk out of my finger. Blood flew everywhere as I yanked my hand back. I couldn't even say "no", I just sat, staring at the crater with tears leaking out of my eyes. I sat for a minute or two with the door open, and Mimo methodically gathered all of the toys on the bottom level and threw them at me! Between throws, he rucked up the cage liner and foofed.

I told my husband about Mimo's strange behavior, thinking that maybe he decided not to like ME and wouldn't react the same with my husband. Wrong. Mimo would curiously come out of his hut, grab a drink of water on the way to his hand, and then viciously bite. Steven and I were both bleeding by this point. Something had to be done.

In the course of our research, we'd read RatDaddy's sticky post about immersion. It seemed that Mimo was asserting himself as the dominant rat, acting toward us like an alpha rat would toward a disobedient subordinate. We decided to try immersion.

We donned our winter gloves and long-sleeved sweatshirts, and took Mimo from the cage (Castielle, sleepy and uninterested, snoozed in the hammock). He puffed up and foofed at us furiously, chattering to beat the band. We set him gently in the play area on the bed and sat down ourselves. Immediately, we were in his face, challenging his aggression. At no point did he show any fear. At no point was he on the defensive. Whenever he encountered one of our hands, he would deliver a furious bite, foofing and posturing, and each time, we would gently swat him or tap his nose, saying "no, Mimo."

At two points, he bit me so unbelievably ferociously that his teeth pierced my leather glove and actually bit THROUGH my fingernail, cracking it from the tip to the quick. One of my knuckles is a 2cm black-purple bruise bordered by deep puncture wounds that refused to stop bleeding even after 30 minutes, and Steven isn't in any better shape. Everything I've ever read about rats indicated that such behavior is not normal, is pretty rare, and should not be tolerated. All I could do was sob to myself as I tried to teach him that he just could NOT behave that way and be our pet. I remembered RatDaddy's words, that we had to be deadly serious about this, as we are literally saving a rat's life. I asked myself why I ever thought I could be a rat mommy, when it seemed that everybody had such loving boys and smart, active, affectionate girls. All of the information had convinced me that rats make some of the best, most intelligent, most affectionate pets ever. How had I so eagerly bought into this? What did I do wrong? What did I not do right?

I cried and cried.

For two hours we sat with him without letting up. He always came back for more, and more he got - gentle swatting, gentle tapping, and firm "no"s. He foofed and puffed and complained and grunted. The weird thing about this entire altercation is the fact that he would continue to curiously explore us, even climbing onto our arms, laps and shoulders, sniffing our faces! But when he found a finger, CHOMP. I thought it would never end. I was terrified that we were ruining him, until I realized that there was no more to ruin. A vicious, biting rat is as low as you go. And, like RatDaddy said would happen, slowly, he stopped biting, and then he stopped nipping. We timed him.

After 15 minutes of no biting or nipping, I took my glove off and offered him my hand. He sniffed it, and I skritched him on his neck, offering him treats, praising him for his gentleness and admonishing him if he did attack. He wasn't into the skritches, but he tolerated them. He was so tuckered out and no longer willing to fight. He climbed into our laps, he laid down next to our thighs, he allowed himself to be stroked, the little adorable guy. It breaks my heart, he has the cheekiest little smile and the most beautiful wide face and glossy black eyes. He received pets and treats for another 45 minutes until we deemed him calm enough to go back into his cage, and BOY was he happy to go back. Not a single bite was given. He went to sleep and is still sleeping two hours later.

The blanket and my pyjamas were gory messes. Bloody washcloths and bandaid wrappers littered the scene. It was a battlefield.

I'm terrified of him and I love him. It is a heartbreaking combo.

Please help. This is not even close to the rainbows and hearts and snuggles I imagined about my first rat experience. I'm just so downhearted and sad.

The images below are of the bite that cracked my fingernail (this was through a glove!), and the matching puncture on the fingertip.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

And I thought my girl was bad!!!! She has drawn blood 3 times... Gory pics btw. Hopefully RatDaddy chimes in! Do you do anything else besides say no? You should flip and pin him on his back. I think that's what you are supposed to do anyway.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just keep doing these sessions. I had a rat that would bite all the time, was rescued from a shelter where everything seemed nice until she started biting. I bled and cried and cursed ratownership. 

Unfortunately, there is not a one-size-fit-all immersion guide/answerbook. How my rat learned to stop biting me will be different than your rat. However, one thing remains the same. Both of us have to sit there (first-aid in hand, neat thing to remember!) in ridiculous padded get-up (I wore a martial arts gi), and try to get the rat to stop biting.

With time, blood and tears, it can be overcome. Try to calm yourself and focus on how cute he is and how happy you are you have rats. Think of Castielle, not of mean Mimo tearing away your skin. Don't look at scars, but think about bettering your rat. Your mental attitude is a key point, you've really got to LOVE your rat even as it is trying to bleed you out. Just think of what must've happened for him to get this way...all the people who saw him like this and never gave him a chance... I know it's scary. When people talk about puffed up rats, hissing rats, chattering in rage...they have no clue how scary that can be when you are telling yourself "Okay, now I stick my hand in..."

You can't go into it afraid or angry. For 7 days, 2 hours twice a day, I locked me and my Iris in a room to let her bite me. When she bit, I booped. When she didn't, I administered treats and love and cool things. I let her explore me without bothering her, I tried to show her I was her owner. I actually do NOT recommend getting a rat that has a brat-attitude to accept a pin. In my experience with Iris, it set everything back. Try to be firm and persistent, consistent. When you get to that point where he seems calm and you can handle him, that's not a time to quit but actually start man-handling him. Pet him, pick him up, treat him like a doll, pin him if he complains. If he goes back to biting, go back to being in his face until you can manhandle again.

It's a long process. It'll never stop. This rat is one that will need constant reminding that he is to be a good ratty-son, and if you lapse in that he'll bite again unfortunately. Really, all I can say is good luck and stick with it. Don't let up. When he calms down, don't think "okay, he's now a normal rat" and put him up but instead begin the hour/s playing with your normal rat.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

We shall guess that your new boys are young adults not teeny weeny babies? It sounds like you have hormonal aggression on your hands, indicated first by him harrassing his brother, then turning his attention to you. Some males will mature and their hormones will rage out of control. The boy won't know WHY he is acting like this, he isn't able to control himself or help himself. it will come and go at first, and sometimes it wanes, and other times it gets worse and worse, until you have a rat that tries to hurt all other rats and is unhandleable. 
Classic symptoms of a hormonal male, is obviously biting, digging with front paws, huffing, rubbing his sides against everything, fur puffed up, back hunched, head down, sidling when he walks, rushing to find and bite you, climbing onto your arm or hand, possibly starting by humping or licking that can easily turn into a frenzy of scratching/biting.

There is a fantastic cure though, you have to get your boy neutered. Once the hormones diminish the sweet original boy will be back.

You need a competent rat vet for the operation but it can really work. I get a hormonal male into rescue and within 2-6 weeks they are lovely sweet boys again.

And just a tip about bites (I regularly take in rats with uneven temperaments, hormonal males, frightened rats so I get my fair share ) get something to try to stop the bleeding with pressure, toilet paper, paper towel, then once its stopped bleeding or you have covered it enough/put a bandage on it, RUN for the ibuprofen tablets. The swelling is what causes the pain and can make it and other issues last a long time. Taking the ibu will prevent the horrible swelling (you will still have some of course) but it won't hurt as long, or affect you as long. 

Sully came to me from another city. He has been dumped outside by his former owner and once I got him home I realized why...raging hormones.

He was bruxxing just before her bit my arm LOL










Scratching way up his flanks (they some times has wet flanks from the scent glands there)


Fur up, head down



Glaring at me


Huffing at the bars trying to bite me



So Sully was neutered and it took some time, but he became very sweet and now has 2 friends


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

Goodness!! My African Grey parrot used to get pissy at me when my Autistic son was bugging her too much, (I hold my bird while my son talks to her and pets her) sometimes she used to lose patience with him and nail me (never him!) though she hasn't done it in almost a year as my son is actually very gentle with her now. I can read her body language much better now so I know when she's had enough. Your ratty bloodied you more than my bird ever did to me. I hope things get sorted, I would shy away from a rat that could inflict that magnitude of damage.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Nieta,

Stories like yours really make me proud to be part of a community of animal lovers that will do so much and go through so much to rescue their animals. And yes this is life or death for Mimo. And I'm thinking you are getting a first hand view of the behavior that got him and his brother tossed out of their former home. 

Was he abused or neglected? It's hard to tell. But we can safely assume that when he attacked, his former owners backed off and left him alone to stew in his domination. Then they dumped him and his friend.

I always recommend rat pups or pre-socialized young rats from responsible breeders to new owners... Really no one should start their rat experience like you have... with mortal combat...

As an aside.... Hormonal aggression is both part myth and part very real. You see, when rats become aggressive their hormone levels increase, which in turn makes them stronger and more aggressive, on the other hand rats that have been dethroned as alphas usually begin to produce less hormones when they return to normal rat status. So by letting a rat get away with bratty behavior you can be fostering hormonal aggression and by putting a rat back into it's place you can cure the same affliction. In the wild an alpha rat has a dangerous job, it protects it's pack and maintains order and harmony in the society... it needs to be strong and crafty to lead it's pack through dangers and challenges from other rats and other animals and even humans. In a cage environment, the poor hormonal rat is all revved up with no place to go. Generally, hormonal aggression is characterized by onset at puberty and a bad attitude if not outright attacking of other rats and humans alike. There are also cases or rats with incurable mental issues that get misdiagnosed as hormonal aggression, nothing is likely to help them. Immersion deals with aggression in order to reduce the hormones, while neutering addresses the hormones to reduce the aggression. Both have track records of success.

We don't have any real history on Mimo, so it's unfair at this stage to determine if his aggression was originally hormonally caused during puberty or is the result of mistreatment. Still for folks that consider all aggressive rats hormonal, I suspect that they are at least part right.

Back to the point... it sounds like your immersion session was a real success! Mimo tried to push you around and tell you he was the boss, and you made it very clear to him that he was not. It took a while to get through but he may have lots of experience where his former owners backed down and he expected you to do the same. You didn't and I'm proud of you. And hopefully Mimo is going to respect you from here on out. He let you handle him and napped on you, this is a sure sign of acceptance, trust and respect... a good foundation for building love. 

Now what about the hormones???? Some owners of formerly aggressive rats have reported that for a few days following extreme immersion their rats can get mildly aggressive again... sort of testing your resolve... but that within a very short time they become among the closest and best rats you can imagine. Everyone who has had long term success tends to agree that previously aggressive rats need more attention and lots of loving, even moreso than rats that never were aggressive. Rats that have had antisocial episodes have more of a tendency to become anti-social again given circumstances of neglect or abuse recurring. 

So now you stay on Mimo! You keep him engaged and involved, played with and loved. You pretty much have told him you are the alphas (read as parents) so now you've got the job, run with it.

Oddly, rats that give up their alpha status hard seem to actually bond very strongly with their human alphas... Like children love parents that are around and involved. You don't have to be pushy, but you do set limits and both children and rats respect that and love to live in the orderly world you create for them. There's nothing to feel badly about, you are saving Mimo's life and he will have a great life and he will reward you for your efforts.

As to advise other than that... oven mitts are usually safer than winter gloves; but I think you have done an outstanding job... stay on Mimo do what you are doing and keep us posted!

Best luck!


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## Batman (Sep 11, 2013)

My rat gimchi before I gave her to my friend Jeff hated me she bit me all the time and even had to get stitches when she bit. Try to.calm yourself and not get angry with confidence you put out he will soon understand you mean business try figure out why he's like that with gimchi she didn't like female anything and does better with males. Just keep doing immersion or nutering is an option 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RattieLover1331 (May 21, 2013)

Wow!

I seriously thought my boy was bad when he was aggressive..

I'm so glad you have been handleing this and not giving up on Mimo.


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## Nieta (Dec 1, 2013)

*Update!*

Hi everybody. I REALLY appreciate your support, I would be feeling pretty bad right now without it, and wondering if I had made a mistake in adopting these little guys. It's never a mistake to rescue an animal, give it a secure place and a chance to understand and be understood.

Some info: The adoption counselor pegged Mimo & Castielle's ages at around 1.5, but I think that they might be younger than that. They are bouncy, playful, climby and rambunctious, lean without an ounce of squish. They also do a lot of posturing with each other and seem to only really like each other when they are in their nightly rat pile.

Mimo spent a quiet afternoon in his house, grooming himself and being pretty forlorn, lost and confused. He is just the prettiest little rat.

We had playtime as usual this evening, and gently carried Mimo from a little tube that he was stretched out in. Castielle ALWAYS squeaks when being picked up, but he seems to enjoy himself after that awful, terrible, 1-second ordeal is over with. ::sigh::

Mimo was as calm and reserved as usual. He played in the huts, houses and tubes in the play area, and whenever he approached us gently, we gave him his favorite treats. There was some mouthing, but no aggression at all. He climbed on us, sniffed our faces and enjoyed his treats and playtime.

Now we are afraid to pick him up, when it was really no big thing just yesterday night. We lure him into a tube with a treat, and while he eats it, transport him back to the cage. We don't offer him our fingers while he is in the cage (with Castielle it seems to be no biggie), but he does climb on our forearms if we lean into the cage. He has never, ever bitten, nipped or even mouthed anything except fingers. Even at his most aggressive, he still just curiously sniffed our faces.

RatDaddy, thanks again for your advice and firm support. I am getting a lot of conflicting advice from many good sources: One says not to challenge Mimo (because she thinks that this fight is not one that we can win) and to neuter immediately. Another says that trust training is the way to his heart. Others agree with you, that our alphahood has to be taught to him, and the quicker the better. It's not clear right now which way is best for Mimo, but he is much calmer tonight. He is not loving, but he is inquisitive about us and doesn't fear us. Maybe the love will come with time and attention? Is it still a good idea to "force" playtime (i.e. carry a rat to the play area) when they are reserved and possibly aggressive? I would feel like such a bad mom if I didn't give them their playtime.

After playtime, Mimo is not hidden away in his house, but asleep in a little pile of tissues that he made for himself. I feel like he's feeling a little less confused. I hope hope HOPE that we can help him and that he will be a lovable lap rat, because he is just so freaking cute. I'm no rat whisperer, but I still think that he has a gentle, calm soul under whatever he's got going on right now. I have watched him brux and boggle on many occasions.

If the aggression continues, we will consider neutering, but only after a few months of interaction. Maybe this is also a little tiff that's made worse by all the transition and change in his life recently - abandonment, poor fostering, and now new, weird owners who feed him treats, pick him up and make cryptic noises at him! 

My biggest question is, how do we shower him with the love and attention and handling that he needs, when we are still unsure of how he will respond? I am hesitant to hold him in my hands (unless he walks there himself). How do we stay on him?

Many, many thanks to all of you.


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## Nieta (Dec 1, 2013)

Look at that little darling. I would just love to hold my little guys like that. Thank you SO much for the bite advice, it really helped. They seem to be sealing up well with minimal swelling.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, lets recap... one immersion session and you are not getting bit and Mimo seems more relaxed and happy to be around you.... As you haven't tested your new reality, your biggest problem might actually be fixed... you could continue with immersion or try something else... they are your rats and it is your choice... We've fixed lots of rats worse than Mimo through immersion but if you aren't feeling that it's right for you and your rats no one is going to get offended if you try something else. It's your choice... we're happy to hold your hand, but you should feel free to let go if you don't like the direction we're headed.

Now under immersion theory, it's a great idea to take your rats to the play area, every day and as much as possible. And you should play with them, literally hands on as much as you can. Pretend you are a parent and you just adopted a child that doesn't speak your language and has no clue where he is or who you are. Should you play with him or let him sit alone in his room day after day wondering and dreading about what will become of him? If you adopted a child or even a puppy you would know exactly what to do... be engaging, persistent and friendly. Don't get all hung up about the alpha thing... you are 1000 times bigger than your rats and that will come naturally as you fill the parental role. You are not breaking a horse, your not trying to crush Mimo's gentle spirit, you are becoming his parents and protectors. And no mom or dad is going to let their child burn down the house or kick them around. As a parent you have to set some ground rules but you can also be soft and encouraging. And by the way, rats don't reward each other with treats, they reward each other with attention, and affection. Treats don't build love, interaction does. Think about it, if treats made you get all romantic you would have married a vending machine. You build love through interaction in a loving way. Sure you have get past the biting first and you have to take charge of your household but then you move on to training.

And yes once you get past the immersion you do start training immediately. Your rats have to learn their names and their basic commands.. it helps them to understand you better and what is expected of them. And of course they will start communicating with you, and you will learn to understand them better over time. 

If you have to, go out and buy some oven mitts to use when lifting Mimo out of his cage and to see if he bites them before you use your fingers, but you do need to be assertive and confident. No alpha rat would ever back down or act afraid of a subordinate rat... just like no parent would let a child chase them around the house with a knife. With children the terrible two's end when the child realizes his or her parents are in charge, the longer you drag it out the worse it gets. My daughter threw one hissey fit in the store on me, I snatched her up and tossed her over my shoulder, apologized to the other patrons and carried her outside, she didn't much like being hoisted and toted out of the store so she never tried it again. Terrible two's over with me, my wife tried to play along and things only got worse for her until she took charge too.

I think you are doing just fine... and I think if you can manage your fears you will get through this difficult time and into the fun stuff soon. And by the way don't forget to immerse Castielle too... hopefully that won't be an extreme immersion, but rather one of the fun ones.


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

Flooding your pet can actually be detrimental to the animal. I don't recommend it.
BTW, Rat Daddy, what are your credentials if you don't mind me asking?


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

Actually, during flooding, a pet will shut down as a coping mechanism so they become numb to the environment but will remain hormonal because it's part of who he is. You are not dealing with his issues, you are making him shut down which is creating a time bomb. I recommend neutering your little guy and watch him become the sweet loving pet he was meant to be. 
Flooding the animal is old school training and proven by behaviourist to be harmful. Positive reinforcement and respect and medical intervention is all you need when dealing with your pets. Any pets.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

jorats said:


> Flooding your pet can actually be detrimental to the animal. I don't recommend it.


"immersion" isn't the definition of being immersed in water. It's closer to "deep mental engagement". None of us are dunking our rats in water, but rather sitting and spending time with/engaging our rats.


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

nanashi7 said:


> "immersion" isn't the definition of being immersed in water. It's closer to "deep mental engagement". None of us are dunking our rats in water, but rather sitting and spending time with/engaging our rats.


LOL Neither is flooding. No water involved. It's a old school training technique.


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

By the way, rats are not pack animals. They live in colonies with one patriarchal male and matriarchal female. The rats never leave their colonies in the wild, it keeps growing. They don't hunt together, they don't even forage together. They live in close proximity sharing females but doing whatever they please. They are very different from dogs or wolves and should not be treated as such. BTW, dogs are not pack animals either. Humans can never be their alpha. We are a different species. But we can love them and "parent" them positively with respect.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

jorats said:


> Actually, during flooding, a pet will shut down as a coping mechanism so they become numb to the environment but will remain hormonal because it's part of who he is. You are not dealing with his issues, you are making him shut down which is creating a time bomb. I recommend neutering your little guy and watch him become the sweet loving pet he was meant to be. Flooding the animal is old school training and proven by behaviourist to be harmful. Positive reinforcement and respect and medical intervention is all you need when dealing with your pets. Any pets.


I agree, positive loving reinforcement and respect is the way to go. We may have been blessed with two "easy" ratty boys last time we had rats but all we ever did from the moment we got them home was treat them with respect and love. We left them alone if they looked sleepy or grumpy and played with them when they wanted to play. Our boys were from Petsmart and though the girl who sold them to us said they were both "a bit nippy" we got them anyways and never had issues. I hope we are as blessed with our next two and I do feel for those who have difficult, hormonal ratties, you gotta do what you think is right for your pet be it neutering or "immersion" (have to do more reading on this and "flooding" but it doesn't seem like something I would personally do).


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion isn't flooding and rats don't shut down! Rats are encouraged to interact and communicate. Most immersion sessions are extended play periods where humans and rats get to know each other. Extreme Immersions are different in that a particular problem behavior needs to be addressed... once the dialogue gets past the biting it's all about play and understanding! Everything a human does is to elicit a response from their rat which they can in turn respond to. And the behavior gets modified through interaction not bullying. And yes during extreme immersions the human takes on a parent role, not a dominant or overwhelming dictator persona. I've raised children, and when they act out you don't spay or neuter them, you teach them limits and more adaptable social behaviors. And my child wasn't flooded or freaked out when I expressed negative communications to address dangerous behaviors. She's a very strong willed opinionated child and she is an honor student. And our rats aren't zombies they are very independent and well adjusted, living mostly out of their cage.

And as to pack behavior, it is more like large extended families... but we're trying to help a person with a problem rat here... and this is more of something to discuss on a different thread.

And for those who are recommending neutering... what evidence do you have that the rats here that are supposedly one and a half year old are going through puberty and have surging hormones? How do you know they were not mistreated or neglected and responding to the way they were handled before they came to their new home? What have I missed concerning the onset of a hormonal disorder that you are basing your opinions on? Seriously, does anyone still recommend neutering for all rats that misbehave? What happened to rats being smart and learning animals? Why can't a rat learn to control it's behavior? Or perhaps learn to trust it's humans and not bite them? 

Seriously, and I don't mean to sound curt, but read through the many threads here on successful immersions with biting rats and non biting rats... there are even ones done with neutered rats and normal rats to understand how communication works and how immersion is based on it and building bonds of family with your rats... 

Immersion for a relatively new method, and it has a great track record of success... 

These are photos of Max our current true shoulder rat, she was raised through the principles of immersion from a pup...

Several days before she ever saw her cage napping in my daughter's hand.









Riding on the shoulders of kids she just met.








Meeting and greeting a crowd of young ladies and being very personable









And doing her final shoulder rat test and yes we were front row under a fireworks show.









Note there was no cage, and we were at a public event surrounded by hundreds of people and Max rode around on the bartender while he served drinks and walked around on the ground and pottied in the grass and had a spectacular time... If you doubt how well she is bonded to us of if you think she feels flooded wouldn't you think she would have just run off into the darkness?

And Max is our second shoulder rat the product of immersion theory and practice... Max is intelligent, courageous, independent, playful, and when she feels like it, almost as charismatic as Fuzzy Rat was. Immersed rats become wonderful friends and family members and more than just pets. Immersion theory and recognizes rats as intelligent and emotional beings and fosters their unlimited development. Immersed rats commonly become amazing.

Yes, I know on this thread I'm only addressing one specific problem, and I'm advocating methods I never apply to any other situation... And extreme immersions are not the rule and in fact they aren't like normal immersions until the biting gets fixed... but it's like using World War II as an example of typical human history and Adolph Hitler as a typical human... Once the extreme part of immersion is over, the communication, bonding and loving can begin and that's what the relationship gets based on...

Still it's everyone's choice how they want to raise their rats...

As long as you don't misrepresent immersion as something it isn't, what you do is up to you.


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## Mouse (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't know that much about rat behavior, but is there anything that says that you can't neuter and use immersion together? It seems like both hormones and dominance issues can cause biting, I would think that using immersion to get your rat to accept you and love you as alpha, and if you're still worried, then getting him neutered to prevent hormones from causing him to keep challenging you would be the best way to go. Again, I'm just making this up from what I've learned on this forum. Whatever you decide to do, good luck, and I very much admire you for not giving up on Mimo.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm sorry but folks who have never heard of immersion and have never used your practices have rats that are just as accepting of strangers petting, walking in crowds, and generally being happy easy going pets. I do not believe immersion is a magical fix it or even necessary for already happy well adjusted pets. Biters have a reason for biting and it probably isn't them just being mean, animals have REASONS for biting, be it being grabbed out of their cage, hormones, internal problems, smelling other prey animals on their owner, smelling food on their owner, issues adjusting to a new environment, or adjusting to a new cage mate, or even a new person in the house, or they just plain wanting to be left alone. Find our the issue, do not bandaid it or you will never fully "cure" your pet.


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

Can you please add links about immersion and how it works. I'd like to read up more on it. I did a quick google search and can't find anything.


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

This is off-topic from where this discussion has gone, but OP: are the curtains on that window usually drawn throughout the day, and is your rats' cage usually in front of it? I doubt this is the root of all your woes, but I could see that being a stressful factor for them. Wild rats would have a completely dark burrow accessible throughout the entire day, and would probably not expose themselves to that much daylight given the choice. It may help to move the cage to a place that gets less direct light, and provide them with some sort of hide to truly "escape the world" when they feel the need.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

bazmonkey said:


> This is off-topic from where this discussion has gone, but OP: are the curtains on that window usually drawn throughout the day, and is your rats' cage usually in front of it? I doubt this is the root of all your woes, but I could see that being a stressful factor for them. Wild rats would have a completely dark burrow accessible throughout the entire day, and would probably not expose themselves to that much daylight given the choice. It may help to move the cage to a place that gets less direct light, and provide them with some sort of hide to truly "escape the world" when they feel the need.


Good call! One of my books mentioned a north wall is the best place for a rat (or hamster cage) for just that reason. Never thought of it too much but too much sun would stress them one would imagine.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Mouse, 

While there's no inherent conflict between immersion or in this case extreme immersion and neutering as a belt wouldn't conflict with suspenders, if you try immersion first you save a few hundred dollars, you avoid traumatizing your rat and if you read the across the rainbow bridge section there is at least one case of a surgery killing the rat.

It's my *personal* opinion in this case we don't really know what's causing the biting... all we know for sure is that the rats have a history and that history involved them getting dumped by their previous owners... The previous owners might have neglected the rats or even abused them. The pet shop they came from might have screwed them up, the fact is that no one knows how the rats got to be the way they are, and we are never going to find out for sure. Maybe it is a hormonal issue stemming from mishandling and improper socialization or an inadequate human role in the rats former life... but correcting environmental and social status issues can reduce overabundant hormones if they aren't caused by physical defects.

Immersion has fixed lots of biting rats, when the cure fixes the illness, sometimes you can skip the diagnosis. That's not a good approach admittedly, but as there's no way to properly diagnose the cause so we have to try the cure and see what happens. Basically if immersion doesn't work you always have neutering... and that might not work either. Rats can have brain tumors or other physical maladies that neither immersion nor neutering can fix. But this is not the best place to start. If we assumed that every rat that bit someone had a brain tumor and started with euthanasia we's have a zero success rate.

Immersion is fast, usually it takes a few hours and a few days to a couple of weeks of close follow up... there's plenty of time to try a neuter if necessary. And if that doesn't work... what's the benefit of rushing?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Charlottesmom said:


> I'm sorry but folks who have never heard of immersion and have never used your practices have rats that are just as accepting of strangers petting, walking in crowds, and generally being happy easy going pets. I do not believe immersion is a magical fix it or even necessary for already happy well adjusted pets. Biters have a reason for biting and it probably isn't them just being mean, animals have REASONS for biting, be it being grabbed out of their cage, hormones, internal problems, smelling other prey animals on their owner, smelling food on their owner, issues adjusting to a new environment, or adjusting to a new cage mate, or even a new person in the house, or they just plain wanting to be left alone. Find our the issue, do not bandaid it or you will never fully "cure" your pet.


Rats are very rarely inherently mean, I've never actually met a rat that I could say was mean without cause... they are much more often screwed up by the way humans treat them. I love the idea of diagnosing the cause of the problem, but we so rarely have that option. The owner from who we adopted an adult rat didn't give us the whole story... Everything she told us was a half truth right down to the term "healthy" meaning "only has mites", and "peaceful" meaning "sitting frozen in one place all day". A vet visit is always a good idea to eliminate health issues. But I'm not sure the behavior described on this thread sounds like the rat confusing its owners for food or other prey animals, nothing is impossible but that's a stretch. Adjustment issues can factor into the equation, but immersion will help address that. It will be easier for the OP to help their rat adjust once it stops biting them.

Immersion is a relatively new theory and practice, most people have never heard of it. I only started out to help a few folks with problem rats and it's evolving to an unpaid job... I'm actually happy to help the folks here, but I'd hate to reply to thousands of inquiries... Immersion staying exclusive to Rat Forum is fine by me. 

As to there being other methods that work, there have been people bonding with rats since old ladies were burned as witches for having rat familiars. And before that there is even a temple in India that goes back who knows how far where humans and rats have commonly interacted on a regular basis. Even when two different people do immersion their personal techniques are going to differ. Immersion works faster than many other approaches, it produces excellent results even when done by different people and it's one of multiple options... People who have used it tend to think it was the right choice for them and they were happy with the results. No one is getting paid to promote immersion an no one is getting charged for it... and certainly no one is getting forced to try it.

Extreme Immersion works on seriously screwed up and biting rats... that's it's only purpose and that's what it does, not best but exclusively. Basically it's the option to neutering. I wrote the guide, I developed extreme immersion and I'm the first to admit that it's ugly and dangerous and often painful, but it also works when everything else including neutering fails. I help people with extreme immersions not because I encourage the practice, but because these people are committed to saving their problem rats and they deserve a chance if they want to try it and so do their rats. 

Why are we arguing? The OP did an extreme immersion session in which the rat seemed to mellow and start bonding with his owner... She has the broken fingernails and bloodied hands to prove it... I think these are very brave and dedicated folks that really want to love their new rats. Lets let the OP and her husband finish what they have started, and see if I can help these very nice people along and then we can all take it from there together. I don't believe the OP's nor their rats need a major philosophical argument, rather they could use some guidance and a little hand holding by those of us who really want them to be successful with their first rats.

I don't mean to discourage anyone's constructive advise, just lets take the debate elsewhere before we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

Perhaps the OP should have used TRUST TRAINING first, then if she had major issues after a month or so, then move on to something else. Bloodied fingers should have no place in bonding with your rat.


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## Mouse (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree that this thread is turning more into an immersion vs. other methods thread, rather than a "Let's help this rat owner with her problem rat" thread. I think that many of the ways to bond with your rat work, and we should let the rat owner decide which one(s) to use- even if one is more convenient, one is less violent, etc, it should really be the rat owner's choice, and if one doesn't work out, you can *mentally* say "I told you so" and help the owner re-evaluate the situation and find another way to bond with their rat.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Trust training was the worst method for many biting rats. Half of the initial extreme immersions were to rescue victims of trust training. And as to getting bit... some of he folks doing trust training were getting bitten every day for the duration. And why would anybody want a biting rat in their home for a month or so when they can put the biting behind them in a single day or a few days and move on to the loving?

Seriously... ANYTHING ELSE has a better shot here. If anyone with a biting rat doesn't want to try extreme immersion I can understand... but run, don't walk away from trust training, it will only make an aggressive rat more aggressive... It has worked well on timid, baby or withdrawn frightened rats... but not on ones that will charge you head on when you are 1000 times their size. Random neutering has a better shot of working.

Again, if anyone wants to debate methods... lets take this elsewhere.


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

The OP should also contact her vet and work with professionals with her rat which I believe she is doing. She is a a loving caring mom and will do what needs to be done within her capabilities. Community support like this is also a great tool for any rat owner having issues. But all training methods should be explored. Medical intervention should be explored with her and her vet.


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## Nieta (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks, everybody. 

Since I first posted, we've spent several more hours observing the boys and their interactions with us and between themselves. We have consistently observed that Mimo is not aggressive or "bitey" towards our hands unless he has just had an altercation with his cage mate, Castielle. And they have been arguing, chasing, squealing and nipping almost constantly, with Mimo being the chaser. He guards his cage and his special hideaway with ferocity, and if Castielle DARES to enter it, he puffs up, starts foofing and rubs his paws and sides against the cage liner and all of the hideaways. If we offer our hands to him before he has calmed down, he will nip or bite. He doesn't charge us, doesn't run away from us, and will always curiously climb around our laps and up and down our arms, but if he is feeling aggressive towards his cage mate and finds a human finger... Be ready to snatch your hand away. If they have been fighting and a human sits in front of the cage with the door open, Mimo gets all of the toys and throws them out of the cage at that human. He seems frustrated.

After more of these observations, I really don't think he is a bad or aggressive rat so-to-speak. He is a biter, however, and whether that's because he had a bad experience with hands or because of misplaced aggression towards his cage mage, we can't accept this behavior, even if he's just in a tiff and will cool off and be friendly again. That's just too unpredictable. I can't offer him my hand and wonder if I'm going to get a lick (which does happen!!!) or a chomp. And he and Castielle just do not get along; they tolerate each other at best, and antagonize each other at worst.

I have spoken with the exotic vet about the issue, and she has recommended an exam to rule out any other health issues that could be causing his unpredictable grumpiness before proceeding with a neuter. It's also possible that his age was overestimated, and we will try to more accurately gauge his age to get a better idea of where he is in his developmental process.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

Nieta said:


> Thanks, everybody. Since I first posted, we've spent several more hours observing the boys and their interactions with us and between themselves. We have consistently observed that Mimo is not aggressive or "bitey" towards our hands unless he has just had an altercation with his cage mate, Castielle. And they have been arguing, chasing, squealing and nipping almost constantly, with Mimo being the chaser. He guards his cage and his special hideaway with ferocity, and if Castielle DARES to enter it, he puffs up, starts foofing and rubs his paws and sides against the cage liner and all of the hideaways. If we offer our hands to him before he has calmed down, he will nip or bite. He doesn't charge us, doesn't run away from us, and will always curiously climb around our laps and up and down our arms, but if he is feeling aggressive towards his cage mate and finds a human finger... Be ready to snatch your hand away. If they have been fighting and a human sits in front of the cage with the door open, Mimo gets all of the toys and throws them out of the cage at that human. He seems frustrated.After more of these observations, I really don't think he is a bad or aggressive rat so-to-speak. He is a biter, however, and whether that's because he had a bad experience with hands or because of misplaced aggression towards his cage mage, we can't accept this behavior, even if he's just in a tiff and will cool off and be friendly again. That's just too unpredictable. I can't offer him my hand and wonder if I'm going to get a lick (which does happen!!!) or a chomp. And he and Castielle just do not get along; they tolerate each other at best, and antagonize each other at worst.I have spoken with the exotic vet about the issue, and she has recommended an exam to rule out any other health issues that could be causing his unpredictable grumpiness before proceeding with a neuter. It's also possible that his age was overestimated, and we will try to more accurately gauge his age to get a better idea of where he is in his developmental process.


I think at this point you should just get him neutered. If one of my males was that bad off and the source of biting was not clear and could not be found with observation a trip to the vet to see if anything physical was the issue then a snipity snip, he should be back to a sweety pie in a couple weeks. Whatever you decide I do wish you and your boys the best of luck.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The vet check up is always a good idea... but sometimes a pack (family) building exercise helps too.. If you feel safe enough to try it... Get everyone out of the cage onto neutral turf and supervise the activity... As with any immersion activity try to keep everyone engaged with you as much as possible. When Mimo acts up assert your authority. Otherwise be the loving parents you are. Outside the cage your rats may be at more ease and distracted by you so they may be able to interact more congenially. And if mom and dad say no fighting they might begin to listen.

Otherwise if you have the cage space separate the rats while you get them to bond with you properly and safely, and I mean both rats an then reintroduce them once every one is calm and domesticated and part of your team. Once both rats recognize your parental authority (alpha status) and interact properly with you, it will be easier to re-integrate your family. If Mimo's hormones are elevated, they will still take some time to go back to normal... it sounds like he's getting the point that he shouldn't be letting his aggression out on you so he's going after his roommate.

Not all rats will get along always... but once all of the rats recognize the same leader and harmony comes from the top down rats will play nice... Whatever else is wrong with your guys, they come from a broken family and that can be fixed.

Will fixing the broken family structure get everyone together? Its worked before... and it could be worth a try. BTW I'm not talking about a long term separation, just until you get both rats to play nice with you all of the time.

New home new rules... 

There's still no guarantee that a neuter is going to fix this, but as much as I don't like neuters without diagnosing probable cause first, I wouldn't give immersion more than a week or two max to make substantial progress before considering the surgical option.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

Something I found worked well with one of my aggressive rats was to be aggressive right back during immersion. If he bit, a simple bop/push or loud "NO" had no effect, but as soon as I started scruffing him (grab him tight by the scruff of the neck and give him a shake and say "NO!") he calmed down right away, but still had flare-ups every few days, so I neutered him. He is now the sweetest rat I've had. (The brown one in my picture 
<------)


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## Nieta (Dec 1, 2013)

Here is a video of tonight's playtime, if anybody has a minute (or 14!) and the generosity to share their thoughts. 

http://youtu.be/e5JmNJoxcRo

Note: Mimo did draw blood after this video and was placed in time out (the carrier). He did not bite when I reached in to pick him up, but he was grumpy. He foofed and puffed up when I put him back in the cage.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all I enjoyed watching your guys exploring their play area. They do strike me as normal healthy boy rats and really not too screwed up at all now. 

Honestly the only reference I have to them before was the rather ugly immersion you went through with them and the pictures of your fingers... I hope you hand is at least feeling a little better. I know rat bites can be painful and take a while to heal.

But it actually looks like you made quite a bit of progress with Mimo from the nightmare you described during the immersion session. He seems to respect you... but he's thinking about it...

Generally you won the battle, but you haven't won the war. I didn't get any sound when I saw the vid so there may be a lot I missed... Mimo has you on the defensive the way you are moving your hands around him tells me you are almost expecting to get bit. He's pushing and your hedging. Well it is better to be safe than to be bit so I don't blame you, but you are his alpha (again read as parent here and going forward) and you shouldn't be all apprehensive around your kids or rats. You sort of want to tussle with him, mess up his fur a little be playful and engaging. Then if he snaps back, immediately respond as you did in the immersion session with assertiveness. Oven mitts would be a very good investment, and you can use them for hot stuff later if there aren't too many holes in them. 

If I may comment further... I see you handing out lots of treats, which is nice, but you don't have to be a vending machine. No one falls in love with a vending machine. You really need to do more handling. You are doing that more with Castielle which is good but you should push it with Mimo more too. With oven mitts if necessary, and you should try to pick the rats up more and skritch their butts more.... My rats love to hate it when I skritch their butts or lightly hold their tails as they pull away when they walk by. They get all flat and slink off as quickly as they can until they come back a few minutes later to be annoyed again. You might skritch yours behind their ears, but with Mimo a butt skritch might be safer. I saw some minor aggression between the rats and I didn't have the audio but I hope you were discouraging that behavior, when you have oven mitts, reach in and break it up.

Now as to a time out... I've never used time outs with rats or kids... I'm way too old for time outs, when I was a kid my dad had a belt about the width of the imprint on the back of my jeans. But that goes to my point. I don't know if rats associate time outs with punishment or if they know what behavior you are discouraging. Any negative communication on your part has to be swift and immediate so Mimo can easily associate bad consequences with bad behavior, rather than with bad mommy.

Now I'm thinking that if you can get things under control outside the cage and you can extend your influence into the cage (with oven mitts if necessary) your problem would be fixed. My daughter is a natural with animals, she has no fear. She would just seize your rats and snuggle them, and most likely not get bit, the spontaneous assertiveness and authority she handles animals with just seems to overcome their apprehension. And they love her for it. To some degree you have to work more towards that goal too.

Try to engage more like an alpha rat with a little more confidence and swagger and behave more like a parent... 

Now on to training. Sometimes training helps you assert more control... Do your rats know their names? Call them and reward them for responding to their names so they can be proud of an accomplishment, then you should teach them up on hand and eventually when you feel safe up on shoulder. Come, up on hand and up on shoulder are the basic commands along with knowing their names... if you like you can also teach them other tricks. By teaching them you are leading them.

As to bonding/love... try to show them as much affection as you can always try to communicate with them in a positive way and try to read their body language for anything they are telling you and respond as best you can... you will be surprised how fast the love can grow.

The fact that Mimo wasn't happy to be put back in his cage is promising, it means he enjoyed being out with you.

All in all this vid seems to be better than you last post, it could be that Mimo's hormone levels are already going down.

From where you started, as I understood your first post, it looks like you did a really good job with the immersion and you might be headed in the right direction if you stick with it and follow through strong.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Though it seems more popular in the UK, I've read that firmly petting (with confidence, love, but dominance) male rats can help get across the message who is boss. When you see Memo puffing up or misbehaving, intervene.

In any case, you look like you just have a bossy rat. He may never come around to being cuddled on anyone's terms but his own. My own bossy rat only ever doesn't disobey if I out-brat her. I think Memo should calm down with consistent dominance behavior from you and as he acclimates to the environment.
The "wiping paws" and siding is all territorial aggression. When you see it, I would advise doing something. The wiping paws is 'digging'. I would either bowl him off the object he is obsessed with, or boop him (don't just shout NO or eep, he needs to learn "NO" is bad. My rats were pinned or booped with no, so they learned NO was discouraging that behavior. Now I can use NO without necessarily needing to pin or boop them, but you first must create a link between NO and bad.)
As you maybe saw, he works himself up into a poof. So, redirect his attention and energy when Memo works himself up. When he even begins to mouth at you, treat it as if a bite and crack down hard. This is the hard part of rat-parenting, when you have to be all rules and strict but once you have your child in line, you can get to love and attention.


As for Castielle, he is doing well. I would maybe give him some mommy-and-me time, because he seems to want your attention but you have to focus on Memo.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

After watching that video it looks like Mimo is in charge, not you. He's saying so with all his sideling and biting, and all you do is make loud noises and time out... you need to start speaking Rat lol. 
When he bites, flip him over on his back and hold him down, or scruff him and pick him up like his mom used to do. When he rubs on things, get your hand between him and what he is rubbing, especially if it is your other rat. You need a zero tolerance policy on his aggressiveness. But mostly you need to speak rat to him.

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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Nieta, 

Stay calm and be brave... we fix a lot of screwed up rats here on rat forum. And moreso than most wishey-washey pseudo new age rat sites, the locals her are going to tell you to be strong and take charge even when you would rather slink off and roll up onto a ball rather than hurt your new babies.

Taking charge wont hurt Mimo, no one is suggesting you be cruel or not act with love in your heart, but you are saving his life. And you are giving him a great new life. Once he respects you he can love you, and he will.

For more confidence... Check out this recent thread...

http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?140209-Break-Through!


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## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

I didn't know rats rub on things. Why do they do that?

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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Voltage said:


> I didn't know rats rub on things. Why do they do that?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


To mark things (it's where the glands are located). That's why sidling is aggressive behavior. 


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

You may want to read this- http://www.ratbehavior.org/Aggression.htm


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