# How to tell excitement from potential aggression?



## OutOfHowMany (Dec 24, 2012)

Just started face-to-face intros between my almost-year-old girls Nerf and Gizka and my newer 4 month old Peko.

Nerf seemed to totally accept her almost immediately and other than some intense grooming and a bit more excitement didn't seem aggressive at all. Gizka, on the other hand, puffed herself up like a balloon and huffed. She didn't seem to be feeling aggressive other than that, and with the cages near all she does is hop up and down on the bars and stare longingly at Peko's cage. She sniffed at Nerf a little when they were back together and brushed it off as nothing out of the ordinary.

I know that Gizka is the more dominant personality, and in personality she's very excitable. I'm not sure if, since this is the first new rat the two of them have met since they were babies, she's finally showing more dominance than she could before and the hierarchy just started to really show, or if she's overly excited and isn't sure how to express it, or really is aggressive towards the baby.

Do some rats tend to show some of those aggressive signs when they're excited and not angry? (She wasn't siding up to her, but she did hop backwards a little and huff and sniff like it was going out of style.)

I'm worried about Peko, but I know they need to work it out on their own eventually anyway.


----------



## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

No they don't show signs of aggression for anything other than aggression. It's likely that introducing Peko to Gizka will be a bit difficult, as Gizka seems to think she's the alpha and can behave like that around a new rat. When you do the introductions, you need to put Gizka in line and stop any aggressive behaviour. It's fine if Gizka wants to be dominant over Peko and Peko accepts it, but puffing up is not acceptable behaviour as it's your pack, and you as the owner are the alpha. 

I am confused by your post however. Have they been together outside of the cage, and for how long? What exactly happened during this encounter?


----------



## OutOfHowMany (Dec 24, 2012)

Since then they've met twice, both on completely neutral territory. When I made this post I set up intros once, but her puffy behavior made me nervous so I ended it. Last night we had a round two introduction session, and it went better for about a half an hour (one pin, some ratty booty sniffing periodically), before suddenly Gizka started up her behavior again. She didn't really puff up initially, but she pinned her once (some squeaking but no wounds) and then maybe five minutes later started sidled up to her several times with little hops (I don't remember her puffing up much in this instance, just the sidling). I separated them each time until I decided maybe it was enough for the night and intros ended (no one got hurt, but I didn't want to risk Giz escalating anything). Peko's time with Nerf went a lot better and ended with some happy grooming.

The cages are near one another's (not close enough for nipped toes and noses of course), but while in her cage Gizka doesn't puff up or anything. She'll periodically go to the bars and watch Peko and huff a little when the baby is moving around a lot, then get bored and move off to do something else. She hasn't shown any other extra signs of aggression.


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

The rule generally is "no harm, no foul" -- so long as no rat aggression signs. My well-acquainted rats still make a point of pinning, booty sniffing and even crawling over to mark. One rat is going to have to be Alpha of the cage, so you'll have to let them work it out.
Check this out:
http://ratguide.com/care/behavior/introducing_rats.php


----------



## OutOfHowMany (Dec 24, 2012)

Tonight seemed to go a little better; more sniffing, but still a lot of puffing and sidling. Meanwhile Nerf is totally digging the baby and crawling on and grooming and marking all over her, haha. I was using the 'glove' into technique today and it helped I think. I'm not sure. I'm prepared to get Peko a new cagemate and a brand new seperate cage if I need to, but I sure would like it if these babies would get along... 

I have a feeling Gizka would act like this at any new rat, so trying to intro another into their cage will probably not work if it doesn't with Peko.

Though I wonder, if I did get her a new cagemate and such, and she grew up a little, would it be potentially easier to intro them, or harder?


----------



## Nathan4d (Feb 17, 2013)

Are you doing intros. With 1-2-1 or all 3 together?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Nathan4d (Feb 17, 2013)

Oh also I've found it easier to introduce pairs as they stick together more (might just be me though!) but if you haven't try all three together out and see how they get on. It won't be any more difficult than one to one as you only need to keep an eye on one rat 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Sounds like Gizka is a bit of a bully. One of my recently passed rats, Storm used to be like this. She hated my girl Ellie, and likely because Ellie is the new cage alpha, but instead of being a bully like Storm, she's a nice alpha and gets respected. I think Gizka sees her as a bit of a threat. You need to keep working on the intros bit by bit. If it doesn't go to plan, just intro Nerf and Piko fully and make Gizka stay on her own for a bit, then re-introduce both. That way, Gizka is in the minority.


----------



## OutOfHowMany (Dec 24, 2012)

I do the intros one on one for a bit and then give all three of them time to be together. Nerf will follow her around for awhile sniffing and grooming and crawling on her, then get distracted and do something else. Gizka ignores her for awhile then suddenly goes 'Oh! A baby!', waddles over, sniffs her, then puffs herself up and I scold her and 'time out' her.

Yes, Giz is a big old bully.. Haha... Her and Nerf were intro'd when they came to live with me, and she was somewhat a bully then but not in this way. Probably because they were both babies and Giz was smaller than her.

I think maybe putting Nerf and Peko together for a bit might be good. I'm worried it would just drive Gizka insane to be alone, though. For such a bully she really loves love and attention, from both people and Nerf. I thought of maybe re-working with Gizka solo with immersion training from the ground up, too. I wouldn't mind trying to intro with a fourth little one also, since Peko may need a new cage buddy and I'm curious how she'd react to TWO babies come to steal all of her love away!

I'll keep working with them! Thank you all so much! Sorry for all of the rambling.. Ah ha...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Here's what someone suggested for me on intros: "Get your smallest cage, clean it out and put in only a water bottle, scatter any food on the floor not in a bowl, this stops one rat hogging or defending it. Then let mum and dad meet each other on a sofa or single bed, expect them to sniff each other a little, dad may try and flip mum, don’t intervene unless they start true aggressive behaviour (there fur will poof up and sidle at each other) pinning, rough grooming, the odd squeak is normal and shouldn’t be stopped. If they actively bite and draw blood (rather than fur tugging) then intervene. If you’re worried then have a water spray or towel handy to drop on top of them. Once they seem less interested in each other move mum first, then dad into the small cage. Expect a repeat performance, possibly slightly more scuffles, but again no true aggression (just dominance scraps at most). If they get fluffy and aggressive at all try banging firmly on the side of the cage, this should distract them and break the train of thought, and lower the levels of tension a bit letting them continue as normal. They should settle after a short while, leave them in there until they are happily sleeping together, then you can start adding an open hammock, some ropes or similar. Keep them in the cage together until they are happy around each other consistently then upgrade to a bigger cage"

(pardon the mom and dad stuff, that was for my situation. just sub in your rats.)

I've also heard about doing intros into a bath tub with a bit of water so they will focus more on getting out than fighting.


----------



## OutOfHowMany (Dec 24, 2012)

That's a good idea too! If I can get her to stop poofing and sidling then I will try that. Giz hates the little cage so it might distract her from wanting to beat up on the baby.

I initially tried the bathtub but quickly learned that Nerf and Gizka are little rabbits and can hop right out like its nothing. (And my tub is pretty deep!) so in the end intros proceeded on the bathroom floor, where none of the ratties had ever been. Would maybe switching the place where the intro is done every day help? So that there's not really a constant, or would that set her back a step?

Thank you again everyone for all of the ideas and stuff! I really appreciate all of this help!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It might help in that they'll be super curious to see the new surroundings. Otherwise, usually people just say a nice neutral territory that no one can "own".

Maybe if you did the little cage you could make a ratty pinata to get their attention.


----------

