# Hence the word NOT......



## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Now.. I have a question that ive been trying to put off for a while but after what happened today i just gatta ask....... umm when a female rat is prego will she become really egressive toward the end of the pregnancie to the male??

Now im *NOT* saying she is prego.. idk if she is cuz i dont se any signs of pregnacie, but it could just be me.. but the last time her and TempleTon hung out in a friendly manner was exactly 21 days ago today.... and when i put them together to play the other day she attacked him amedietly ((i figured since they were near the cages it might have been cage aggresion)) but then yesterday i put them on my bed ((across the room from the cages)) and after about 3 min of scampering around the bed Alyssa went at it with TempleTon only this time it was much worse.. i couldnt get her to let go of him. 
TempleTons fine.. she didnt break any skin but ive never seen her this mean toward him.. shes not showing any aggresion toward me at all though... idk whats going on with her all of a sudden.

(((((((if i do find out shes prego ITS AN ACCIDENTAL LITTER!!!))))))


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## DarkDesires814 (Apr 8, 2007)

If you put an intact male and female together to play it wouldn't be an accidental litter. Was he neutered 2 or 3 weeks ago? If not then you need to not let them play together anymore. This has been said many times. Please listen this time and do not put them together again.
That being said, if it was 21 days ago that you think they possibly could have mated and she is not showing at all then I do not think she is pregnant. From every picture of a pregnant rat I've seen they get very, very large in the last week of pregnancy. It's not something you could miss. But this doesn't take the last two times they've played together into account. There were rats in my house when I was much younger (between 8 and 10, before I was able to get online to learn about proper rat care) and from what I remember there was always extra aggression between them when the male was trying to mate with the female and she didn't want any part in it. Yes, she did end up pregnant anyway.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

I dont know but it can be anaccidental litter cus you let them spend time together-thats like man and woman saying they didnt use contraception the last ten times they had sex but the havent planned to have a baby


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

IF she's not showing, she's likely not preggo from 21 days ago.

HOWEVER. She could be pregnant from either of the 'aggressive' situations. Maybe TempleTon finally got his mind wrapped around mating. Maybe Alyssa's been in heat or something similar.

So I'd still be on a pregnancy watch for these possible PLANNED litters.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Is there any reason why you refuse to listen to nearly everyone in this forum? Do not let intake males and females play. As you can see, it can be dangerous as well as lead to pregnacies. Saying it will be an accidental litter is just making yourself feel better for taking unessesary and dangerous actions with your rats. If she becomes pregnate and you let them interact together you are planning a littler.


I'm seriously kind of disapointed. I thought in your comming back post you said you were not letting them play together anymore. Well please stop it unless you want babies and aparently a hurt Templeton to boot. There really is no good comming from it so why let them play?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i really hope she isn't pregnant. hairless rats make horrible mothers. if she has them without complications (which you will be lucky if she does) the likelyhood of her not killing all the babies or not lactating to be able to feed them. the out come will most likely be that all the babies end up dead. even if you feed them by hand rat babies seldom make it through. 

can you post pictures of alyssa's belly for us to see? sometimes a rat doesn't show very much at all until a few hours before birth when the babies drop if its a small litter. if she is pregnant the best you can hope for is a small litter. 

being aggressive to other rats is a possible sign of pregnancy, she doesn't neccessarily have to be aggressive with you as well. if she pregnant i'd be concerned with the amount of food she's eating. the few lab blocks a day isn't enough for a normal rat but is seriously lacking in a pregnant one. you'll really want to switch her over to a kitten food or something high in protein. a pregnancy can last 21-23 days on average but sometimes it can go as long as 25 days. and then there;s always the possibilty that you mis counted the last possible days she could have gotten pregnant. or she could be at the beginning of her pregnancy and that is why she's aggressive with templeton. maybe that second last time she was out she got pregnant then. with such a short gestation i wouldn't be surprised if they knew they were pregnant only after a few hours. 

i seriously hope to god she is NOT pregnant but with all the playdates she's had with templeton its much more likely she's is. you'll need to get a tank that you will clean daily for her to give birth in so the babies don't fall out if it turns out you have a rare hairless and she is a good mother. and another cage for when the males are 4-5 weeks old. with the cage sizes you have now you won't be able to just set them in with templeton. the cage is too small. you'll also want to get a bigger cage for the girls as the one you have now won't fit them. 

dear god i hope this isn't what's happening. good luck and keep us posted. and please listen when we say not to put alyssa and templeton together anymore. if it hasn't happened yet it will. and just because you're not wanting the babies or doing to get babies if babies result it is because of you directly and not an accident. you can't even claim ignorance in rat care on that matter as you've been told numerous times to NOT do it. in any case good luck


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I think that after all the times she's been told not to put them together... I really assume she does want a litter and is just telling us she doesn't to make herself feel better. Why else would you INSIST on putting them together? Why would you get a male in the first place?


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Izzie, I really recommend you take Alyssa to a vets, asap.

You say she is drinking excessively, she doesn't seem to be eating enough and now you say she is being aggressive, yet not showing any signs of being pregnant as such... all these signs, to me, point to her being sick or depressed.

A general health check up shouldn't cost that much, if you shop around. Please get a professional to look at her.

And, as far as not wanting to ask questions - it is true that people here are hard on people when they are concerned for the well being of their rats *BUT* at the end of the day, the most important thing is the well being of your rats. If you are scared to ask a question for fear of being "flamed", please pm one of the moderators for advice. *Please do not let your rats suffer just because you are scared to ask a question in the forums.*


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

You really should get Alyssa spayed or TempleTon nuetered. That way you don't have to worry about babies! And spaying has a lot of health benefits.

That.. or you need to get each of them a SAME sex friend!

There's honestly no other options involved. A large percentage of 'play times' between intact males and females result in litters. Most people say "I watch them and make sure they don't." Well.. that isn't a 'for-sure' way to do it. Mating usually will take less than 2 seconds! I've known people to see one mounting the other, be reaching for them as soon as you realize, and for a litter to result because they just weren't quick enough. And you can never say 'that won't happen to me'. Distractions are likely as well as a belated reaction.

The only sure way to guard against pregnancy, other than a spay and/or nueter, is to not let them play together. EVER!


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

*Sorry if someone has already said this but I checked all the posts and didn't read anything so  Another thing you can look for is if she has a pear shape. A lot of prego. mothers get that shape. I don't have super great pics but i'll post the one I have of the new girl when she ended up looking prego. Also cliping your boy (or nut. ur girl) is a good idea if you would like them to live together. I haven't cliped my boys only because they like in same sex groups so I haven't had the need yet. Hope your girl is ok, and like Donnak said if your worried about ebing flamed just pm a mod or someone on here you trust. *
Edit: More pics


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Ok so i do want babies but im NOT trying to have a litter.. its just that i cant get either of them a friend right now cause of the move soon and i feel bad for TempleTon being in his cage alone.. he looks so lonely dispite the attention i give him.

Ive heard of people whos rat had babies unexspectadly cause they didnt se any signs or the rats only had 2-3 babies so you cant tell shes prego. 

No i know most of you might think this is stupid or fake but i dont.. my moms a psychic/pet psychic and so i had her read Alyssa and she seid she didnt se any young around her and that Alyssa was fustrated and confused and that she liked excitement ((my moms a proffetional btw)) so i still dont know if shes prego.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

It just seems, you keep saying they fight. That doesn't seem like positive attention. So just wait alright? That or get Templeton neutered or Alyssa spayed. Those or getting another female and another male rat are really your only options.

If you're not trying to have a litter, stop letting them play together because that will pretty much guarantee you one sooner or later /: I know they seem sad, but keep in mind it was your decision to get two of opposite sexes and this is your doing. They unfortunately have to deal with your consequences. Don't let them suffer more from bad decisions alright?

Don't know why I keep trying to get you to stop putting them together, it just gets ignored *shrugs* mostly concerned about your rats especially since you have said in the past you can't afford vet care, don't see the point in taking a rat to the vet and think you never will have to... It will definately be inevitable with pregnacy/breeding/babies and many spays/neuters/etc. for the unwanted babies you can't find homes for.

But yeah, this will just go ignored I'm sure XD

Oh an Alyssa is probably depressed because she is sick, especially if she drinks too much water and only eats one lab block today. I'm surprised she's not a skeleton rat.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

You're not trying to have a litter. Fine. But you want babies. Let's say that your subconscience is making you put them together so that you'll get babies. Great. Now let's get over that and not do it again.


Is Alyssa lethargic at all? Listless? More aggressive than usual?


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Ok i never seid she was depressed.. shes probily confused cause i had to move her cage away from TempleTons. Shes not a skelatin either.. I WOULD NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN TO THEM!!!!!!!!! so idk why you would say something like that! and shes not sick.. shes fine, she goes places with me, shes held daily and gets plenty of interaction and treats. And no shes not aggressive at all and never has been towards humans.

I dont have money for a vet right now.. you try paying for a vet when you pay $1000+ a month for rent, $700+ in utilities. I always have food and proper stuff to care for my pets just not enough for a vet right now. Once i move ill have alot of extra money to put asside for vets and to get TempleTon neutered.. i just dont have the money right now.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Rodere said:


> You really should get Alyssa spayed or TempleTon nuetered. That way you don't have to worry about babies! And spaying has a lot of health benefits.
> 
> That.. or you need to get each of them a SAME sex friend!
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. I also wonder if seperating them during sex would hurt them-I know its not something most human males would like 

If Alyssa's behaiviour is strange lately maybe the vet will say a spay would help or maybe sugest snips for Templton cus its less invasive


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

Unfortunatly we've all warned you multimple times - rats can get pregnant in a split second. You've made the decision not to listen to the advice of many people who have either had that experiance or know of someone who did, and if babies are the only outcome concider yourself VERY lucky. You're risking Alyssa's health needlessly.

Perhaps you should rehome TempleTon and get Alyssa a same sex friend. I kno parting with a much loved animal is very hard, but think of how much happier he would be if he could be housed with some male friends.

I really hope you'll finally start listening to our advice. There is no one here trying to pick on you, we'rre all just very concerned about your rats.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Alyssa hasnt gotten pregnant in the months and a half that ive let them play together. And how come everyone else that mentions there rats "accidently" got prego by one of there males you guys dont say anything.. cause if that persons rat got prego that usually means there letting there none fixed rattys play together.

Im sorry.. if alyssa did have babies right now than shes old enough cause i read almost everywere that the best ages to breed a rat is between 6-9 months old.. and what about breeders.. ok yea there rats have proving bloodlines but what about those lines they dont know from before the ones they do know??? 
I understand your trying to help but come on guys i know everyone on this site whos rats havent had babies want babies.. in the back of all your heads you want babies.. it isnt wrong thats i would like a litter of baby rats but that doesnt mean im trying to make babies.. and if i was id wait till after the move cause the move would cause issues.

what about those people here that get a prego rat and all those babies come out fine.. the whole issues with the pregnancy and birth doesnt come up enough to worry me.. its the same with hamsters or mice, there can always be problems with the pregnancy and birth but that doesnt mean its ganna happen.

And one more thing.. TempleTons not going anywere.. if any of you were actually paying attention you would have seen that i seid i was ganna get TempleTon and Alyssa a friend once we get to the new house!! its almost like you guys dont listen to what im saying.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

No, Alyssa_Rat, we listen.

We do. But what we hear is 'I've let them play together for a month and nothing's happened'.

Most people with accidental litters haven't let the boy and girl play together after being told not to.

That's all...

It's good that you're planning to get them friends. And that you're trying to get them snipped. But it just seems a bit callous that you think the issues don't come up often enough to worry you, when it's Alyssa you're talking about... your admittedly 'little' rat who's type makes her suspect as a good mother in the first place...

*bowing out now*


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Alright, well what I would say is this: If she has been playing with a male rat pregnacy should always be suspect until 23-25 days after the last time they were together. And you should then be prepared, with an emergancy vet phone number handy and a vet fund ready in case she does give birth. If you continue to let them play, just remember that she might give birth 23-35 days after that and be ready for that cosequence. 

Here is the rat guide's take on determining pregnacy:
http://ratguide.com/breeding/pregnancy/determining_pregnancy.php

And the accidental litters, are usually from pet stores of females escaping and getting into males cages of vise versa. The owners don't let them play together after repitidly being advised against it. Yeah most owners listen to this advise. But you won't so just be prepared in case she does get pregnate. You seem to always worry about it and ask about it so might as well prepare a vet fund for it just in case and ask around to see if there are people who would be interested in babies. Also try to find out if there is a rescue that has a surrogate mother just in case Alyssa doesn't take care of the babies like most hairles are known to do.

Please don't get overly defensive, you asked a question. No one here is flaming you although I'm sure there are many who are frustrated with you and very concerned and worried about your rats. We are all trying to help, no need to be on the defense and to yell at us with caps when we are just trying to help you answer questions and help when you ask for advise. Also a good thing to do when you are asking for advise, listen to the answers. It only makes sense to me. Sometimes I don't like the answers given to questions I ask as well, but I still listen and take things into account.

But to me it just doesn't make sense to ask a question, get answers and then immediately go to covering my ears yelling out that I'm in the right and all of you are wrong... If I were going to do that, I wouldn't ask any questions to begin with because obviously if I were like you, I would have every answer already made up before the question was even asked...


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

A good breeder will NOT breed unknown lines. Period.

Dare I say, most responsible rat owners do NOT want babies. Yes, many ooh and aah over pictures of adorable babies, but most also know full well the expense, heartbreak and responsibility that goes into it and makes sure it doesn't happen.

Take it from me! My rescue just started recently, and we've had a 2 week old litter brought in, which is now 4 weeks old, and we've got a brand spanking new litter. We're lucky they were just 8 in the first and now 6 in the second (now that one passed away). It's not easy. It's not fun. Yeah, there are moments that are enjoyable when a baby is being cute. But there's a lot or work involved. That's fine, that's what a rescue is all about. But I would never MAKE it so babies would be born. There's no reason. None.

Just because you've been lucky for a month and a half isn't reason to CONTINUE it. Count your blessings, don't let them play, and then you won't be responsible for yet more rats born into the world when more then enough adult rats are sitting around, waiting for homes.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Sorry, but that's like handling a snake for a month and a half and thinking you won't get bit simply because for a month and a half you've been able to avoid it. It's simple- as the amount of time increases, so does the opportunity for something to go wrong.

Ride in an airplane once and you aren't likely to be involved in a crash. Ride in an airplane all of the time, and you chances increase. 

If you can't afford vet care, then you shouldn't be putting your rat at risk for pregnancy. How would you feel if we put you in a room with some guy after isolating you from people and he kept trying to get into your pants? It's be pretty darn stressful.

You asked for our advice.. we've given it to you. And repeated a good bit of what we have already told you. Either you want it or you don't. From what you've said, you don't really care what anyone says.

You might care if Alyssa gives birth and however many babies starve to death, are killed, trampled, or smothered. Or Alyssa could die as well. Because that can and does happen. Can you look into those little faces while they die and say 'Sorry, I bought your mom and dad and let them play despite the fact that knowledgeable people warned me. That is why you are here right now, suffering.' Dramatized, but very possible!

Try and nurse orphaned litters and cry over the fact that no matter how hard you try, no matter how much time you spend doing it, how much sleep you loose or money you spend, they still keep dieing. Maybe then you'll understand..


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Alyssa_Rat, have you thought about finding a same-sex friend for either Templeton or Alyssa, and then finding the other rat a new home?

I know you plan to get them friends, etc, but perhaps you should just keep one sex or the other. Then you *never* have to worry about all of this again.


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## IceLore (May 13, 2007)

First off, if you are old enough to care for animals, then I'm assuming that you know what a penis and a vagina are and how sex works. That said, you should know that two animals of the opposite sex will mate given the opportunity. How is what you are doing any different then what a breeder would do? You are putting a male and a female together. They will breed. It's not hard. It IS irresponsible though.

Besides that fact, you are NOT providing your rats proper care by deciding to get one rat of each sex. You obviously know that they shouldn't be kept singly, but you made that concious choice. Bad call. Yeah, you say you are going to get them friends in the future, but you could solve a lot of issues by getting your girl spayed. If she is pregnant, it would take care of that, it's healthier for her, and then they could be together without you having to get more rats.

How about you attempt to do what is best of your rats in an intelligent manner? Sounds like a plan to me.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

On another note as someone who had an oops litter late last August. I adopted a single girl from a shelter who was found outside. I thought I was safe from pregnancy. She had 13 babies and it was a lot of work and expense. I had to buy big cages for the girls and the boys, find GOOD homes for most of them (2 of them had adopters back out, one of them lost their adopters twice)...I ended up keeping those boys and neutering them as well as kept the mom and 2 of her daughters. I never want another oops litter again!! It was expensive, time consuming (babies HAD to be handled everyday to make them socialized for their new adopters), cages had to be kept clean all the time, and babies are loud poop machines, they eat a ton (you'd better have a lot of money), you might need to medicate someone, I had to treat everyone with Revolution before they went home...'spensive.

I also took in a small young girlrat who had escaped and been mated with a male. She unexpectedly gave birth to 2 tiny eepers, fed them once and then ignored them. I took the babies and mom in 10 hours later, but one of the babies died before their owner left to bring them here, and the other little girl died 7 hours after arriving. She never had a chance. She had had one feed and no one stimulated her to eliminate and her belly was purplish black from toxic food inside of her. I fought for the wee thing but she died anyways. It was heartbreaking. I named her and buried her with one of my other rats. I felt soo sad that she never had a chance at life. :'( I kept the young mom and her sister so that they wouldn't have a chance at getting pregnant again.  Poor Cleo was depressed for weeks afterwards.

Babies seem like a great idea but are you prepared for them to die in your care?

You are playing Russian Roulette with a lot of lives here and you need to really think this over.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

DonnaK said:


> Izzie, I really recommend you take Alyssa to a vets, asap.
> 
> You say she is drinking excessively, she doesn't seem to be eating enough and now you say she is being aggressive, yet not showing any signs of being pregnant as such... all these signs, to me, point to her being sick or depressed.


these are the exact signs that Fizzgig had his bladder infection. He was only eating two blocks of food a day, not touching his veggies and drank *ALOT of water. I agree that Alyssa needs to be taken in to the vet if a bladder infection goes untreated it can cause kidney failure which is basically death.*


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## KimmiesGuineas (Jun 14, 2007)

It's been a while since this thread, what ended up happening?


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

oh yea your right.. Alyssa ended up not pregnant and still isnt ((although i dont let her and TempleTon play anymore anyway)).. and Alyssas perfectly fine.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Stephanie said:


> DonnaK said:
> 
> 
> > Izzie, I really recommend you take Alyssa to a vets, asap.
> ...


*

I hadent picked up on this before but a urine infection in elderly humans would cause these signs and symptoms, the other thing I think of is diabetis but I dont know if rats get that. Eather way sounds like its time for a health MOT*


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