# sick/ tired rat bruxing??



## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

hi, i havent posted in here for a looong time... it seems like i only want something when i do  im typing one handed bc sasha (the sick/ tired rat), so this is going to take an annoyingly long time...and this might be a long post, too...
ok, my rat is sasha, shes about 1 1/2 years old, she has a cagemate, samantha, who's a few months older than her (i think- i got sasha in february of last year, and sam the december before). they'll fight sometimes, but i go with the "no blood, no foul" rule i've seen on here.
sasha started acting really lethargic on saturday, and wandering around with her eyes half closed. i took her to the emergency vet (who happened to have someone coming on duty who treats rats- yay! so i didnt have to drive an hour to the only other place that was open that treats rats nearby.. i didnt want to stress sasha out more than necessary). so the vet said sasha's lungs sound fine, it doesnt seem like she has a neurological disorder (based on observations... the vet didnt do any tests bc they're not really equipped for all that. the vet gave me baytril to start her on in case of a possible infection, and gave sasha some fluids, in case she's dehydrated. and also a number of a daytime vet down the street that specializes in exotic animals. 
my question is, sasha's been bruxing a lot since she started acting different, and she's been boggling some, too. she's never bruxed this much that i've heard, before, and i've only seen her boggle once in the whole time i've had her (before now). is it normal for a rat to brux when sick? my girls have (fortunately) been healthy the whole time i've had them, so i dont have any previous experience to go on. she's almost constantly making some noise.. bruxing, or (what don and i call) chittering. (chittering being almost a clicking noise.. like what you make with your tongue behind your teeth). so is it normal for a ratty not feeling normal to be talking a lot and bruxing?

sorry for the long in depth description that had nothing to do with my question... i just wanted to let you guys know i took sasha to the vet already. oh, and samantha is still acting normal. the vet said i should seperate them, so sam seems kinda sad about that, but other than that, she's acting normal.

thanks in advance for any responses!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

E#xcessive bruxxing is a symptom of PT (pitutary tumor).

Offer your girl a cheerio, see if she is able to grasp it properly.

Besides being lethargic is she acting confused and clumsy? Is she clubbing her feet or doing a funny push back?

Calla (RIP) did a lovely pictorial of what PT rats look like before treatment and after...see if this looks familiar?

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4048195.0


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

There isn't any need to separate them, unless you notice Sasha is being bothered too much by Sam. It's usually best to leave an unwell rat with cagemates whenever possible, as it can bother them even more being taken away from their friends.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> E#xcessive bruxxing is a symptom of PT (pitutary tumor).
> 
> Offer your girl a cheerio, see if she is able to grasp it properly.
> 
> Besides being lethargic is she acting confused and clumsy? Is she clubbing her feet or doing a funny push back?


the link you posted isnt opening right now, i'm gonna keep trying, though. sasha started, what we thought, jumping off the couch earlier this week, but after she started being lethargic, i started worrying that she was falling off. she'll head toward the edge of the couch and then slip off the edge. she's always liked peering off the edge of things, so i think she's getting too close to the edge and just falling off. 

ok, i just got the link to open.. some of that is familiar. she's not clubbing her feet or doing push back. some of her behaviors are reminding me of my hamster i had a couple years ago who got wet tail- the pulling herself forward, resting after short walks. yesterday morning, sasha was zipping around her cage, then she'd stop and sleep. she used to zip then sit for a while. sasha will sit in my arms and when i pet her head, she closes her eyes and just stays there until i stop petting, then she'll walk away. last night she started pulling herself off my side after i would pet her, and then lay by my hip- but sasha was laying on her side when she'd do that. for the most part, her walking is ok, she's not falling over. i don't have any cheerios, but i'm gonna offer her part of a carrot right now-(she's sleeping, so i dont know how well that'll go over). last night i gave her a baby carrot, and she went crazy for it- she devoured it, but was eating it off the couch; i gave her another one, and she ended up chasing that one all over trying to eat it (it fell between the cushions). 
do you think i should take her to the other vet that was recommended to me, or wait until tomorrow to see if the antibiotics work?


ok, i just went back and checked on sasha again, and she was up and wandering around her cage. she ran over to see me when i knelt by her, and looked pretty much normal. i went and sliced off another piece of the baby carrot, and offered it to her. she took it and ate it normally. she was even doing her 'radar' looking (she's PEW) where she was moving her head side to side when i first went over there. she wasnt radaring as much as she normally does, but she was moving her head a little bit. but she could hold the carrot just fine this time. maybe because she got a little rest? i really really hope it's nothing too bad  i feel soo bad for her! and guilty, even though i have no idea what's actually wrong with her, i feel like it's my fault. poor sasha!


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

now sasha's pacing around.. she stopped pacing when i put samantha with her, so i'm gonna put them back together. she was running around and acting normal for a little bit, but then she started pacing. i was reading about PT's, and now im scared that's what it is. i want to call the other vet, but i also want to wait and see if the meds will do anything, bc the emergency vet said to wait until tues to see if it helped. sahsa's more active today, but not much more. and she's opening her eyes a little more. i don't think she's been drinking any water, though, and when i offer it to her from a bowl,she starts sneezing- like she got water up her nose- and gives up after a couple tries. i'm worried about her! and i'm probably posting too much on here, but talking about it helps me, anyway! so thanks for reading! 

update after about an hour (ish?): sasha isnt holding any of her food when she eats, she just eats it off the ground or off my hand if i hold it for her (which i usually end up doing bc its so sad to watch her chase the food around as it moves when she's eating it.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Not holding food in front paws can be a sign of PT. I hope it isn't that and that she improves. Could you syringe feed her water? Perhaps with a bit of sugar in to make it more tempting - I did this with Max the 2 days ish before he passed away and he did seem to like the taste.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

Stace87 said:


> Not holding food in front paws can be a sign of PT. I hope it isn't that and that she improves. Could you syringe feed her water? Perhaps with a bit of sugar in to make it more tempting - I did this with Max the 2 days ish before he passed away and he did seem to like the taste.


i'll try that- thanks  right now sasha's sleeping, and she's been really jumpy whenever i touch her when she isnt expecting it, so i'll try it when she wakes up. 
the emergency vet called to check on her, and i mentioned that sasha's pacing a lot like she's looking for something (i was taking a nap when she called, otherwise i would have remembered to mention the not holding food), and the vet said i should take her to the daytime vet tomorrow, if she doesnt improve. i hope she does improve tonight, but if not, off to another vet tomorrow!

ok, i tried the sugar water, and she likes it- she drank a little bit of it, but then seemed tired, so i left her for now.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

Sasha has been a little more active last night and this morning, but she still isnt using her paws when she eats, and she's still wandering around with her eyes half closed. i took her to the vet that the emergency vet recommended (they had an appt 30 mins from when i called- their only open appt all day- yay!) and he couldnt feel anything wrong with her either. he of course recommended blood work and x-rays, which would cost at least $300, but i need to talk to my sugar daddy (aka bf who makes more than me) to see if its ok to do that for her. or the vet said we could start her on an anti-inflammatory to see if that helps with her pain, if she's in pain. he also said that baytril is a good general antibiotic, which gets into the central nervous system (i had no idea anything about baytril, so this was all news to me), so if by chance there's something wrong in there with her, the baytril should help some. the anti-inflammatory he gave me for her is metacam, and he said that if she stops eating, to stop giving it to her, bc IF there's something wrong with her liver or kidneys, the metacam could make it worse. so i just gave her the first dose. the vet also gave her more fluids bc i havent seen her drinking anything. 
so, that's my update on my poor sasha. hopefully the baytril helps, and hopefully the metacam helps, too! samantha is still wandering around looking like she's wondering whats wrong with sasha, why isnt she playing. (or, that could be me projecting thoughts and feelings onto a rat...like some people think)


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

You may have already looked at this article about PT, but if you haven't then the diagnostics and treatment sections may be especially useful: http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php


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## little ratscals (Nov 3, 2008)

i am beginning to wonder if allegra had a pitutary tumour, a lot of this sounds like what she did have because she was on doxy and baytril for a month and it didnt help her. she did brux a lot after eating and i just thought that it was because it hurt her to eat. but she didnt eat or drink much for at least a month. i took her to vet and put her on lasix, presnidone and zithromax, i was hoping that that would help her but sadly i lost allegra to a freak accident and will never know if the meds would have helped her.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

i'm sorry for your loss of allegra.
this is so horrible to watch sasha and not know for sure what it is- just suspect. the vet i went to today said the only way to know for sure if sasha has a pt is to have an mri, but he doesnt have a mini rat mri machine (that just sounds expensive, with not a lot of return!) sasha has periods of running around almost normally, but then she seems all out of it, and just lays there. after i gave her the metacam, i went to check on her, and she wasnt responsive AT ALL for a while, then just when i figured i'd have to tear open the tissue box to get her out and tore one little bit, she whipped her head up like "just what do you think you're doing to my box?!" and she's still eating, which is a good sign. 
i saw "my sister's keeper" today, and i had to keep thinking about other stuff during the movie so i wouldnt cry, because if i started crying about that, then i'd keep crying about sasha! you all know, but it's so horrible to feel so helpless!  
at least samantha's still ok, though, and being nice to sasha  she's not beating her up like usual (knock on wood)


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## little ratscals (Nov 3, 2008)

im sorry your rattie is not doing well. i truly hope that she gets better. allegra had bouts of just laying there on top of her cage with her head hung down and at time losing her balance and falling. she did that a lot and i read that when they have a p.t. they usually hang their heads lower. and as i said upon reading this thread it sounds like she did maybe have a pitutary tumour and not respiratory as we suspected.


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## Little-Fizz (Mar 5, 2009)

sammyratty said:


> i saw "my sister's keeper" today, and i had to keep thinking about other stuff during the movie so i wouldnt cry, because if i started crying about that, then i'd keep crying about sasha! you all know, but it's so horrible to feel so helpless!
> at least samantha's still ok, though, and being nice to sasha  she's not beating her up like usual (knock on wood)


I really want to see that movie... Was it really that sad because maybe I really don't want to see it then... I'm sorry to hear about your girl, I can't really offer much help only that I hope she pulls through!


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

Little-Fizz said:


> I really want to see that movie... Was it really that sad because maybe I really don't want to see it then... I'm sorry to hear about your girl, I can't really offer much help only that I hope she pulls through!


it was pretty sad...it's a little different than the book, but then movies usually are. i would recommend it, but only if you take tissues! i went with a friend and my mom, and my mom didnt cry, but my friend was crying through most of it, because her family and her husband's family both lost someone from cancer. but it was good  i only actually cried at one part, but _almost_ cried for a lot more than that!

little ratscals, thanks for the well wishes (and you too, Little-Fizz!)  sasha's always liked laying high up the entire time i've had her. when we first got her, she would lay on top of their food tissue box and sleep with her nose off the edge. don and i used to make fun of her when she was so deeply asleep and would slip off the side of the box. once she slept through the (short) fall, and woke up a couple minutes later looking like "what happend? why am i lower than when i went to sleep?" then we got her a hammock and she LOVES sleeping in it. since the summer started i've noticed her watching things with her head off the side- i thought it's normal for her, so it's only in retrospect that i think it's indicating anything. maybe she was laying with her head off the side more often since summer started, or maybe i'm only noticing it bc i'm at home pretty much all the time since then. i just got back from one of my few outings of the day, so i havent checked on sasha yet (i dont want to wake up don too often!  ) but hopefully she's doing better. 

thank you all for your responses and even just reading! it makes me feel less alone and lost when i see that someone else is at least reading this! and sorry for talking so much on here, but thanks for putting up with it!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

PT is rarely diagnosed when the rat is alive. You have to go by the symptoms then you put the rat on a steroid and an antibiotic...if they improve you have PT. Some PT's won't respond but so many do.

This is my Ariel, she responded so well to her steroid therapy I had her for another 8 weeks!

http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pituitary_tumor_figure_2.php

Can you insist your vet give you prednisone just to try?


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> Can you insist your vet give you prednisone just to try?


i was going to call the vet and ask about something else anyway, so i'll ask about that, too. 
sasha's big on grapes right now (her favorite food at the moment, and she only eats other stuff if there's no grapes readily available... but now i'm worried about making her sick from eating too many grapes, so i try not to give her too many), and this morning when i gave her the 'breakfast grapes', she sat up and was holding the first piece she ate. after that, it was like she got tired out from sitting up, so she ate the rest of it off the cage floor. right now, it seems like she's exhausted, like its too much effort to sit up to eat, too much effort to climb in the hammock, too much effort to do much besides sleep. 
thanks for the advice, lilspaz68, i'll ask the vet about the prednisone.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

I just wanted to give you guys an update about sasha, in case you were wondering-
i just picked up some prednisolone from the vet to try with sasha. she's still acting about the same- lethargic, wandering aorund with her eyes half closed. she has periods where she zips around, but they're not too long or often. she seems a little stronger and more active, but not enough for me to be happy with. i've been feeding her baby cereal, because she seems too interested in the food in their cage. i'm gonna start her on the new meds tonight bc its a twice daily med, and i want to give it to her as close to 12 hours apart as i can. shes really cuddly and likes lots of pets since she got sick.
the vet said he doesnt think the prednisolone will do anything to help her, but is willing to try it. 
i dont care what helps her, as long as she gets better or at least isnt in pain or this lethargic anymore.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

Some info on prednisolone if you didn't know anything about it: http://ratguide.com/meds/endocrine_hormones/prednisone_prednisolone.php

I hope it helps her


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

thanks Stace  i googled prednisolone, but what came up isnt too relevant to rats, and i haven't looked very far for info yet, so thank you!!


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for the update, sammyratty, I _was_ wondering. Hoping for the best for Sasha,


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

i know i just gave sasha her first dose of prednisolone, but how long should it take to see if it's working? a day? 2 days? i'm just curious, and i forgot to ask the vet when i picked up the meds this morning. thanks in advance for any info you have!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You should see a difference in about 12-24 hours. With the steroid I use, dexamethasone, I usually see it within 6 hours.

I wish you much luck and hope she improves on the steroid


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

sasha"s only had 2 doses of prednisolone, and she"s been on baytril since monday. i gave her the most recent doses this morning at ~ 830, and its now 630 pm (just some background info)
she seems worse now than she was before- more limp, barely eating.. i gave her some water from a syringe, and she seemed thirsty, but barely drank any. she had a few bites of the baby cereal, then fell asleep for a couple mins, then had some more, then fell asleep again. shes barely moving around, doesnt seem to be grooming herself anymore (she has up until this morning), is barely lifting her head up, and every time she moves around, it seems to tire her out bc she moves a little then rests for a while before moving again. now whenever i pick her up, shes completely limp. i cant afford to take her to the vet again, and im really worried about her! please, ANY advice would be appreciated! i have no idea what to do about her.


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## Lea (May 15, 2009)

Sorry I don't know enough to offer any advice, and sorry she's doing so badly.


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## sammyratty (Dec 28, 2007)

i just wanted to thank you all for your advice, and let you know that last night we took sasha to the emergency vet (a different one) and the vet there thought there might be some tenderness in sasha's abdomen. we left her there overnight, they but her on a heating pad bc she had a very low body temp, and they gave her fluids and some pain meds. she wasnt doing better this morning, she was still very limp and pretty much unresponsive, and the vet still thought that sasha was sore in her abdomen, with a possible uterine infection, or possibly tumors, but since she was so unresponsive and had been sick for so long, it was questionable if anything we could do for her would do her any good, but of course it depends what was wrong with her. after MUCH difficult thought, we decided that the best thing for sasha was to put her out of her suffering. :'(
once again, i want to thank you all for your help and advice this past week.


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## FeffOx (Feb 8, 2009)

Aw, I'm sorry about Sasha . At least she knew that you was trying to help her and she knew that you loved her.
RIP Sasha


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