# My little girl's still a biter....am I doing something wrong?



## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

Hello all,

I came across this forum (which I'm very happy to discover), and am hoping someone could help me figure out what's going on.

My boyfriend and I became proud (albeit first time) parents of four girls (Gumball, Toffee, Skittles, & Truffle). We've been spending time and helping them socialize since day one. Everyone's behaving beautifully except Toffee. When we got her, she was very sweet and sociable to us. But every since we took her home, she;s always angry (she makes 'hmph' noises) and she ALWAYS bites us. It's not an accidental nibble or grooming -- she chomps down on our fingers or knuckles. 

In terms of her sisters, she gets along fine -- she's never aggressive towards them. My boyfriend and I tried everything from making sure our hands and arms are thoroughly washed, to trying to soothe her before approaching her. No luck -- it seems like a weekly occurrence that one of us is wearing a bandage on our finger. :'(

Are we doing something wrong? The other girls are doing well -- they interact with each other and with us without any problems. They haven't been spayed yet (still looking for a vet) -- would that help Toffee calm down? Was Toffee simply not socialized properly from birth (all four we got from a pet store)? Guess the bottom line is, is there any hope? :-\

We're worried sick -- we'd hate to give up on our girl, but we shouldn't be afraid to interact with her as well.

 Thanks so much!


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## Wimbo (Nov 21, 2008)

Have you just left the cage open and rested your hand on the door without approaching her? Just letting her get used to your smell and on her terms. Of course let the other girls out and then just sit by her cage and let her decide if she wants attention, but that way she will smell you and know you are not a threat.


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

Wimbo said:


> Have you just left the cage open and rested your hand on the door without approaching her? Just letting her get used to your smell and on her terms. Of course let the other girls out and then just sit by her cage and let her decide if she wants attention, but that way she will smell you and know you are not a threat.


First off, thank you for posting a response -- greatly appreciate it! And second, sorry for the delay -- just put the girls in the cage after bf & I gave them their evening play time in their designated area (a.k.a. the scrubbed down bathtub). 

The suggestion you gave is actually what we've been doing for awhile now. We've tried it with her sisters still in the cage with her (who in turn go nuts climbing from our hand up to our shoulders then back again). And tried it also with the other girls already taken out for their daily play. Toffee's definitely curious, but the minute she comes close to the hand, she chomps down (so far, she's getting to the point that she's drawing blood from us). We've tried making squeaking noises whenever she does that to hopefully make her realize that it's not good. It seems to help -- now there's a 50% chance she'll back away.

Even tonight at playtime, bf offered his hand and arm as an additional playground for the girls. He didn't approach her or anything, but still Toffee goes over, chomps on a finger, goes away, then comes back and chomps on another finger. It's so weird...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Toffee sounds cage territorial. does she ever bite while Out? If not then that's the problem.
She also sounds like a smart girl who has figured out that biting that scary hand makes it "go away".

You could offer her the back of your hand...instead of yummy fingers...see how she reacts to that. Have you done the feeding yummy liquidy treats on a spoon? Then if that goes well, be brave and try it on your finger...eeping if she bites down a little? they can learn to associate the scary hand with Good Things 

Have you tried eeping when she bites? This can be very effective depending on the rat.


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

You could try to remove the scary hand before she has bitten. That will reward "not biting". Then throw in a very yummy treat as an extra reward.
Every bite is a set back in the training and a signal that she couldn't handle that level of socializing.
If you need to pick her up for free time, have her go into a oatmeal tube or so and carry her out of her cage like that. During free time avoid giving her access to your hands. Let her come to you.
She just might have been hurt or frightened in the pet store before you got her and needs to learn to trust again.
One of my pet store rats will still bite when I accidentally startle her so I have to announce myself when the lady is asleep. I have her for over a year and other than that she is fine now. Not a love bug like the others but sweet in her own independent way.
Good luck.


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Toffee sounds cage territorial. does she ever bite while Out? If not then that's the problem.
> She also sounds like a smart girl who has figured out that biting that scary hand makes it "go away".
> 
> You could offer her the back of your hand...instead of yummy fingers...see how she reacts to that. Have you done the feeding yummy liquidy treats on a spoon? Then if that goes well, be brave and try it on your finger...eeping if she bites down a little? they can learn to associate the scary hand with Good Things
> ...


Thank you for the reply (I'm sorry for the late response)! In regards to your question, she bites whether she's outside or inside her cage. It's leaving me stumped.

I'll try using the back of my hand tonight during the girls' evening playtime (my bf's out of town for the holidays so it's just the girls and me). I'm trying very hard not to be scared to approach her, but when I had to move the girls into a carrier cage in order to clean their cage, she flipped out and bit me hard on the knuckle. I think I scared her sisters when I made the "eep" noises in response -- after I cleaned up the wound the other girls immediately started grooming my hands when I gave them their treats. Suffice to say, Toffee did not get any....


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

begoodtoanimals said:


> You could try to remove the scary hand before she has bitten. That will reward "not biting". Then throw in a very yummy treat as an extra reward.
> Every bite is a set back in the training and a signal that she couldn't handle that level of socializing.
> If you need to pick her up for free time, have her go into a oatmeal tube or so and carry her out of her cage like that. During free time avoid giving her access to your hands. Let her come to you.
> She just might have been hurt or frightened in the pet store before you got her and needs to learn to trust again.
> ...


The training is a good idea. Let me try that over the holidays. Right now, the only comfort my bf and I have is that Toffee doesn't bite or harm her sisters. If anything, she's such a mother hen towards the two younger siblings (while being cautious around our eldest, Gumball). But again, doesn't help that she's known as 'Jaws' in our household!

The oatmeal tube is a good idea too -- so far I'm using one of the carrier cages and luring her in with a treat (I tried using a spoon to give her treats, but she's not interested. She seems to like having the treats given to her by hand). But the tube will definitely be easier to coax her in and out.

We're hoping she'll adjust in time -- especially before we bring the girls to the vet for their check up and spaying. A coworker of mine who owns rats suggested that maybe the spaying might calm Toffee down. Is there a degree of truth behind that?


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

Why are you spaying them. Do you have males? if she has to go through the stress at the clinic being handled, poked etc. She can become more afraid. 
Personally I would not do that to my shyer rat, but that's MHO or wait a few months until she at least trusts you. That way she knows that you are safe and the vet is the bad guy.


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

begoodtoanimals said:


> Why are you spaying them. Do you have males? if she has to go through the stress at the clinic being handled, poked etc. She can become more afraid.
> Personally I would not do that to my shyer rat, but that's MHO or wait a few months until she at least trusts you. That way she knows that you are safe and the vet is the bad guy.


The spaying was recommended by the vets I spoke with -- something about how it reduces the chances of developing tumors (hence increasing their lifespan a bit). Toffee's sisters are well socialized and friendly so I'm not too worried how they will behave when they see the doctor (so far they've handled guests very well). But I won't take the girls to the vet until I get Toffee comfortable around my bf and me. Not big into seperating them in any way...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

There is rumours that spaying can remove hormonal aggression, but I am honestly not really seeing _that_ with your Toffee. My Moth was a good candidate but I wasn't spaying at the time. She was rat aggressive and rubbed on everything and poufed up and even bit me if she was around another rat and I was trying to save someone's toes. She got the nickname Mothra. :

Spaying is awesome with a good vet, reduces the chance of mammary tumours, uterine infections, esp. the very frightening pyometra. I have a few spayed girls at home, but at $200 a pop I had to stop and now only spay in emergency situations (e-spay or vaginal bleeding that doesn't clear up with antibiotics).

Toffee has designated herself the Protector of the cage, is she the alpha rat in your group of girls?
I had an old lady I intro'd to the Baby Cage...she loved her annoying little charges and if I tried to handle any of them she would rush out and bite me. I learned to be very very aware of where she was in the cage. LOL.

Eventually she and I came to a conclusion and the biting became nipping then licking...she was a real sweetie when my Talli passed.

How old is your girl?


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> There is rumours that spaying can remove hormonal aggression, but I am honestly not really seeing _that_ with your Toffee. My Moth was a good candidate but I wasn't spaying at the time. She was rat aggressive and rubbed on everything and poufed up and even bit me if she was around another rat and I was trying to save someone's toes. She got the nickname Mothra. :
> 
> Spaying is awesome with a good vet, reduces the chance of mammary tumours, uterine infections, esp. the very frightening pyometra. I have a few spayed girls at home, but at $200 a pop I had to stop and now only spay in emergency situations (e-spay or vaginal bleeding that doesn't clear up with antibiotics).
> 
> ...


<claps hands> Loving the Mothra nickname!!

Toffee's about 3 months old (she's actually the second oldest. The eldest of the four girls is Gumball, and she's 4 months). 

My biggest suspicion is that prior to my getting her at the store, Toffee was the alpha amongst the store rats. 

But when my bf and I introduced her to Gumball, part of me wonders if Toffee never adjusted from getting "demoted" so to speak. I didn't witness it myself, but after we did the customary quarantine and introduction, Toffee apparently tried to assert dominance. Suffice to say, our mellow girl Gumball wasn't going to have any of it and apparently put Toffee in her place. BF said he saw the two girls scuffle, and had to break it up when he heard Toffee give a shriek. 
When he checked on both girls, Gumball was fine -- but he had to wipe Toffee down because it looked like Toffee got what looks like pee on her back (he was afraid of bathing Toffee so he resorted to using unscented baby wipes).

Ended up putting them in separate cages and doing another introduction at a neutral spot (aka my bathtub). Ever since then, Toffee seems to defer to Gumball -- even allowing her older sister to take treats from my hand, even if Toffee was closest. ???

Attempted the suggestion of presenting the back of my hand during their evening playtime. Gumball, Skittles and Truffle went nuts and played around my hand (Truffle surprised me by climbing up my bare arm and getting on my shoulder. Was even more surprised when I turned to look at her, she gave my nose kisses). Toffee tentatively came over, sniffed my hand, only to chomp again. Let's just say my "eep" noises were pretty shrill cause it hurt. I'll try again after it's safe for me to take off the band aid...refusing to give up on my girl!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Toffee is a cheeky brat (3 months old is the mouthy stage IMO, and you sometimes need to work hard at teaching them what's acceptable or not) who has learned the Hand goes away when she bites it. Make sure when you offer the back of the hand she has NO access to tasty fingers, and your fingers are curled towards your body so the skin on the back of the hand is taut, making it that much harder to bite and grip. 
Has she drawn real blood? Does she dash out and bite you, or sneakily walk up and chomp?
Is it only when you are handling HER girls?

Looks like Toffee needs a lot more socializing. If you feel you cannot handle the biting, get a pair of gloves just to pick her up. Is she okay when she's in your hands?


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Toffee is a cheeky brat (3 months old is the mouthy stage IMO, and you sometimes need to work hard at teaching them what's acceptable or not) who has learned the Hand goes away when she bites it. Make sure when you offer the back of the hand she has NO access to tasty fingers, and your fingers are curled towards your body so the skin on the back of the hand is taut, making it that much harder to bite and grip.
> Has she drawn real blood? Does she dash out and bite you, or sneakily walk up and chomp?
> Is it only when you are handling HER girls?
> 
> Looks like Toffee needs a lot more socializing. If you feel you cannot handle the biting, get a pair of gloves just to pick her up. Is she okay when she's in your hands?


"Cheeky" is a nice term. As of this morning, after chomping my hand once more, she has been elevated to b^tch status. :'(

Your description is exactly what I do now with my hand. She still chomps on them. Think the fact the skin is taut and harder to sink into, it must annoy her cause now she does her chomps in quick succession. My "eeps" don't seem to faze her as much...

Yes, she has drawn blood. And her approach is both; either she'll do what the bf calls "chomp n' run" (she'll dash towards the hand and clamp down) or stealthily approach your hand while her sisters are playing around it and chomp. Literally it's getting to the point that bf and I know if she comes close, she's ready to bite. It doesn't matter what is being done -- whether we're playing with the girls, or just having to do the usual cage maintenance (like refilling their food and water or doing a quick clean up). It's as if Toffee will go out of her way to bite us even when we're not in range.

Even this morning, when I had to get their food dish to refill, Toffee actually raced from the top floor the cage to the bottom where my hand was and actually chomped on my wrist. Suffice to say, I jerked and yelped.

I feel bad for her sisters...it seems like now, every time Toffee bites, Gumball, Skittles and Truffle do damage control by grooming and giving the bitten hand kisses. They also seem to not interact with her as much. I'm hoping they're not isolating her. Despite the biting, Toffee has never harmed her sisters.

Will pick up some leather gloves to use when handling her. And yes, she also bites if you have to hold her.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I would looove to get my hands on this girl? do you live anywhere near Toronto in Canada??? LOL. The tricky buggers, the sick and the old are my favs.

Gloves might do the trick...not much fun if she cannot bite the hand.


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> I would looove to get my hands on this girl? do you live anywhere near Toronto in Canada??? LOL. The tricky buggers, the sick and the old are my favs.
> 
> Gloves might do the trick...not much fun if she cannot bite the hand.


No sorry...I live here in the US near Washington DC. 

Picked up the leather gloves and had to hand carry the girls into their carrier (had to the do the weekly cage cleaning). Toffee was squeaking bloody murder when I tried to hold her with both hands. In true fashion, she was doing her rapid succession of bites. Ended up using a towel to wrap her before putting her in the carrier cage with her sisters.

Sheesh...


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## dkirschling (Mar 20, 2007)

I myself rescued a pair of girls last year and Beezus-friendly to her sister and cagemates- bit me every chance she had. She liked the quick, painful chomp and also the long, painful holding on to my finger and hanging there. It can be disheartening to love someone and all they seem to want to do is hurt you! I would get so mad! I kept trying-I wore gloves when handling her for many months, but now she mostly almost never bites. It was at least six months of daily interaction before we got to this point, but worth it! Good luck!

D


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## begoodtoanimals (Dec 6, 2007)

Try clicker training for good behavior. There are good books on the market that will explain how to do it. It is a positive method.
Don't hold a grudge against her by withholding treats. Actually you should reward her the moment she doesn't bite. She is only a rat with a ratty brain. Another idea could be to immediately but calmly put a plastic plate between you and her hand when she makes an attempt to bite. Then reward her for not biting.


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## Alexc844 (Sep 8, 2008)

ugh... she sounds like my girl Kajri... Kajri hasn't bitten me hard, but she'll come up and put my finger in her mouth... it's the oddest thing... She'll do it every chance she gets.


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

Alexc844 said:


> ugh... she sounds like my girl Kajri... Kajri hasn't bitten me hard, but she'll come up and put my finger in her mouth... it's the oddest thing... She'll do it every chance she gets.


Sounds like Kajri is grooming you. The other girls (especially Skittles and Truffle) do that every time my bf and I put our hands in the cage. Read somewhere that if the ratties are grooming you, it's a sign that they're comfy around you.

Today, bf opened the cage to play with his "daughters" -- Skittles managed to climb up his arm up to the shoulder, and groom his ears and hair. ;D


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## Chibipulse (Dec 13, 2008)

dkirschling said:


> I myself rescued a pair of girls last year and Beezus-friendly to her sister and cagemates- bit me every chance she had. She liked the quick, painful chomp and also the long, painful holding on to my finger and hanging there. It can be disheartening to love someone and all they seem to want to do is hurt you! I would get so mad! I kept trying-I wore gloves when handling her for many months, but now she mostly almost never bites. It was at least six months of daily interaction before we got to this point, but worth it! Good luck!
> 
> D


This is comforting to hear -- well, will keep using the gloves and see where that goes! I'm so worried that Toffee senses bf and my discomfort whenever she comes near our hands (be it feeding time, play time, or treats time).


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## Alexc844 (Sep 8, 2008)

Chibipulse said:


> Alexc844 said:
> 
> 
> > ugh... she sounds like my girl Kajri... Kajri hasn't bitten me hard, but she'll come up and put my finger in her mouth... it's the oddest thing... She'll do it every chance she gets.
> ...


Oh well, that makes me feel better. This whole time I thought she was doing it because when i first got her I fed her treats through the bars of her cage... yeah.. I don't do that anymore XD


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Actually she's trying to hold you still or keep you in the cage around, still likes you though. Don't pull away even if she tries to walk away with your finger in her mouth


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