# looking for sumthin....



## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

I was just curiouse as to weather anyone on this site has an odd-eyed rat?? or any special colors or designs of rats??


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Well, "special colors or designs" is kinda general - pretty much all "fancy rats" other than an agouti or albino are special colors or designs. Also, your Templeton is a special design because he has an unusual marking on his face. 

And I remember you talking about wanting to breed him - I don't know if you're still interested, but Templeton's marking is high white, and that makes his offspring at high risk for developing megacolon (the inability to digest food & elimate it).


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

MC is a very painful and often fatal condition that breeders are desperately trying to get out of the lines. Only properly accredited and very responsible breeders should attempt even possible High White breedings.
Most babies with MC are pts or die by 4-5 weeks old.  Then there's late onset which can show up at 5-7 months old and kill your rat. Megacolon is an awful thing.  Its the worst thing a rat can get IMO.

http://www.midwestrats.org/articlehighwhitecont.html

http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/megacolon.php


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

I have a hairless rat, that's kind of different. And Odin has odd eyes, he's missing one >_> But I don't think that counts D: He does fine without it though.


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## lizzydeztic (Mar 15, 2007)

this brings me to a question. after bathing my rats several times the upper part of dre's tail has stayed the same color. i thought it was dirty, but it hasn't cleaned up like the other ones' tails. she has a black spot around the base of her tail about the size of a nickel and the color extends down half of her tail, has anyone seen anything like this? she's a hooded rat by the way, with spots of color all over her back.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Hoodeds tend to have spotted tails in my experiance. Joshu had several black spots on his. If it's not orange and it's not comming off it's probably just pigment. I wouldn't worry too much.


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Yep, all of the hooded rats w/ spots on their backs have spots on their tails, too. And they're always in the most random places!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

Sniffs is a hooded and he has a white ring around his tail.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Umm if rats with umm lots of white can pass on mc or whatever than how do people breed hoods or albinos?? no affence but im starting to think your making these things up... now yea mc might be real but with the whole color variations im not shure i can believe that.

Umm now with the hooded rats with spots on there back.. thats not considered a hooded its considered a Variegated ((or a rat with a hood and SPOTS going down the back, not a line)) TempleTon and Alyssa are both Variegated.

((((( Variegated-H/h and modifiers
Rat is colored over head and shoulders but has spotting on its back and sides with a white belly
Related to dalmatian
Pictured rat also has a large headspot










RSA"The head and shoulders to be of any distinct color with white marking on forehead. Marking on forehead required, can vary from spot to blaze. Blaze to conform to blaze standards and will be shown in blazed classes. The variegation to cover the body from the shoulders to the tail including the sides. The tail shall have spots of color as well. The color to conform to any recognized color. Belly color to be white, devoid of creamy tinge or staining. The color shall conform to a recognized color." 

AFRMA"The head and shoulders to be of any recognized color with a white blaze on the forehead. The variegation to cover the body from the shoulders to the tail including the sides and tail. Belly fur to be white, devoid of creamy tinge or staining."

RatsPacNW"Will have a colored head and shoulders, numerous small color spots on shoulders, sides and tail. Has a white belly and head spot." 

NFRS"The head and shoulders to be of a distinct colour with a white spot or blaze on the forehead. Where a spot is present this should be centrally placed on the forehead, round or oval in shape and no bigger than the rat's eye. Blazes are a wedge shaped symmetrical blaze of white starting at the nose and extending up the face to the forehead. The blaze to cover the whisker bed and taper to a fine point midway between the eyes and the ears. Markings not to extend onto the cheeks or the eyes. The rest of the upper portion (back, sides and tail) of the rat's body to be white, evenly marked with patches and flecks of distinct colour, the colour to conform to a recognised colour variety. Underside (including belly, chest and throat) to be white, devoid of creamy tinge or staining." )))))))

I study rat colors and patterns so i know what it is when i se one.


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Alyssa_Rat said:


> Umm if rats with umm lots of white can pass on mc or whatever than how do people breed hoods or albinos?? no affence but im starting to think your making these things up... now yea mc might be real but with the whole color variations im not shure i can believe that.


If you don't believe me or lilspaz, read those webpages she cited: Megacolon is definitely genetic, except in rare cases where there is a later onset.

"Genetic megacolon occurs as a result of faulty neural crest cell development in the embryo stage. The defects in the neural crest-derived melanocytes, which cause white spotting, and the defects in the peripheral neurons, which result in the lack of ganglia in the digestive tract, occur on the same migration path.
Thus, you will often see genetic megacolon in BEW (black-eyed white), husky, blazed, split-capped, tei-colored, odd-eyed, and other â€œhigh whiteâ€ lines of rats. The same relationship occurs in a certain type of Waardenburg syndrome in humans where there is either odd-eyes or a white patch of hair or pigment accompanying the digestive involvement. Lethal white foal syndrome in horses occurs in the overo types (white or mostly white) and causes death from megacolon within a few hours or days of birth." http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/megacolon.php

Also, check out the photos here - there are rats with markings on their faces very similar to Templeton's. 

A rat can be variegated and high-white, because the high-white gene is a modifier. That's why there can be albinos and hooded rats that don't carry a risk of megacolon, if they don't carry the high-white modifier.


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## reachthestars (Feb 27, 2007)

I wish they were making megacolon up . It's a nasty disease that kills 100% of affected rats in a very painful way.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Well then how do breeders breed there hooded rats?? and that would mean about 80% of the rat population being born is dying of mc... and i dont se how thats possible. You know if mc is as bad as your say it is than breeders wouldnt be breeding there rats and you wouldnt be seing all the dominate white colored rats we se today. Now personaly im not ganna panick about this because no effence i think you guys freak out to much when it comes to the little, rare, and not so important things with the rats. Im sorry but you guys put more pressure on me than school does, calm down and live a little.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

YEEah!
this genetics stuff proves I could never be a breeder-its more confusing than maths!


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

How are we putting preassure on you? You're not still thinking of breeding are you?

I don't think you read the links. You don't breed the dominant high whites. From what I gather you breed it recessively by knowing the line of genetics. Two carriers of the high white genes will create a high white.

It's the dominant high whites I gather that create the megacolin condition. So yeah, no breeder would breed your Templeton.

Besides, not all hoods are high whites: 'High-white means white markings in places you do not normally see them' So a normal hood, with a colored head and a stripe or spots along it's spine is fine. But if that hood carried a spot somewhere unusual it would be a high white.

http://www.midwestrats.org/articlehighwhitecont.html

Read this link before you comment again please. And Unfortunately if you had read the links you would KNOW it wasn't rare. We do WISH it was ^^;;


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Yep, I don't think you read either the links or our posts.

"A rat can be variegated and high-white, because the high-white gene is a modifier. That's why there can be albinos and hooded rats that don't carry a risk of megacolon, if they don't carry the high-white modifier."


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

She might just not understand, it is complicated


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

True, it is. I have trouble understanding it even. But yeah, I'm not going to breed or be a breeder and won't really even consider it until I get my own house and have read up. I don't know if I could handle loosing any litters/females D:


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Yeah that post about Jade really got to me.
I think I would need to put my work head on and think of breeding clinically but then I wouldent love them as much or have as much fun with them.I think maybe I'd like to assist at a breeding centre though. There are a few round me and I bet they would love a hand! Wonder if they would pay?
OMG how many would I end up bringing home?! Id spend my whole months wages on insurance


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Yeah no joke lol. Wish I had a exotic vet that charged less so I could adopt a couple more loveable guys <3 I pay out the ears on vet bills as it is D:


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Thats is such a clever thought! Be a vet=slash your fees! Why didnt I do vetinary nursing?! I could part time I suppose...
Sorry Alyssa Im side tracking!


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Well, it's complicated, but if you have a decent attention span, it's not so hard. I've started idly reading about genetics because my friend breeds her rats for her snake's food (she doesn't live feed, and the does are treated really well, only have a few litters each in a lifetime -> much better than how feeder-breeders work). I figure that since she's breeding, I might as well learn about the genetics so that I can understand what's going on, and I'll have a head-start if I would like to become a breeder someday. Oh yeah, and it's cool.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Yeah, its dead interesting.
So is this how it goes?
You decide to breed, you have money, time and a strong heart and stomach.
You choose what you want to breed for-temprement, health, appearence, type (what ever that is  )
You find which strains have the qualities you like
You find which families of these strains have the best of the lot
You get two rats of good stock and put them in a romantic setting
Look after them and the babies
Choose the babies that have carried the best bits
Then can you breed brothers and sisters or do you need to find another quality litter?
Do you have to do laboratory genetic testing or can you tell enough from the carechteristics?
There are ?? cromazones in a rat each with ???? ?! different subsections-how many favorable carecteristics can you choose in one rat? 
If a rat is a carrier of a resesive unfavorable quality can you breed it or with the resesive gene cause a hitch somewere down the line?


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Yeah, that's a process that doesn't faze me. However, I won't have the space, stability, or regular income to do that for years. So I've started reading about the genetics instead.


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

I have pondered about breeding but I don't think I could deal with the loss of a babies or mamas I am an overemotional person when it comes to my ratties LoL (mind you nothing else in life gets me crying my hubby hates it he says I am a cold hearted person)


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

Yes you guys pressure me more than school does cause when i mention breeding the one time everyone flips.. even though i never seid i was ganna breed my rattys, and because somehow everytime i ask a question you seem to pull breeding into it or some other thing that causes me to worry to much about my rattys... and what really got me was how someone ((i cant remember who)) a while back seid that if i dont have money for a vet that would mean i dont have money to take care of my pet so i shouldnt be allowed to have pets at all.

Im sorry but when i got my first rat a couple years back i dont remember it being this hectick.. and the only reason why i havent left this forum is i do get alot of good advice from you guys.. so now that someone managed to turn a fun question into an argument id like it if one of the modorators locked this convo, thanx


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

Alyssa_Rat said:


> Yes you guys pressure me more than school does cause when i mention breeding the one time everyone flips.. even though i never seid i was ganna breed my rattys, and because somehow everytime i ask a question you seem to pull breeding into it or some other thing that causes me to worry to much about my rattys.



In a previous thread, you specifically said you planned on breeding Alyssa and Templeton later on. 2manyrats tried to help you by warning you of a genetic disease that could just make your whole siutation worse.



> and what really got me was how someone ((i cant remember who)) a while back seid that if i dont have money for a vet that would mean i dont have money to take care of my pet so i shouldnt be allowed to have pets at all.



This is absolutely true. If you cannot afford the necessary, basic care of an animal, you should not have it. Wellness checkups are part of basic care for any animal.

I will not fight you, but I really wanted to tell you those few things.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

I seid i was debating on breeding them... i never seid i was ganna plus if i were to plan on breeding them it would be to late cause by the time i think alyssas ready t be bred I would have already fixed TempleTon.

And no you dont have to have a vet to have a pet.. My dog Bonnie is 10yrs old, ive had her 5 yrs and in my care shes never seen a vet and she perfectly healthy.... our cat.. hes 3 and weve had him since he was 6weeks old and hes only been to the vet once to be fixed and that was when he was about 8 months old and hes perfectly healthy.. so in my point of view unless the animals dying or really sick i dont se the point in rushing to the vet for something thats most likly nothing... ok yes i understand with rats you gatta be a little more caustious but ive known people who'v had a rat 3 yrs and that rats never seen a vet but is still healthy and happy.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

It can happen but it's rare. I've spent $800 within the past year on vet bills between my ferrets and my rats. Odin is breathing heavily right now and if I didn't take him to the vet for care he could of been dead by now or soon without antibiotics. Their illnesses take off quick so it's good to have an emergancy contact and vet checks when they are seniors. My cats don't require nearly as much vet care as my exotics do. They are more hardy animals.

The point is you need to save up to be ready. Maybe you have a different view on rats and that's fine but if you want to stick around and learn you need to listen. I'm sorry but I think everyone read from your post that you were wanting to breed your rats, and it seemed like it from you letting them play together you didn't care if they bred or not.

I used to be a little like you when I was younger but looking back I wish I wasn't cause I'm paying for it now in some ways with my ferrets. True, rats don't live as long of lives as ferrets and don't have as costly of problems as they do but still it is very important you have a vet ready and take as much care of your babies as possible now so they live longer and have less problems in the future.

I doubt anyone means to pressure you or make you angry. We just care for your rats so add our opinion and many times you come off as if you don't listen or fail to listen/read anything of what we say. I think a lot of it is internet communication gets jumbled up.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

now letting my rats play together.. yes i do let them play together but you can ask anyone.. i dont take my eyes off of them, i can let them breed now cause anyway cause im moving soon and i cant drive 3-4 states with a litter of rats. and yes i make shure they dont do anything.. i dont let them leave my sight at any moment, plus TempleTon isnt interested in her for some reason.

Now yes emergencies can come up, and yes i can most likely come up with "emergency" money. when im finaly on my own i plan to take my pets to the vets on a regular basis and use my working money for emergencies right now.. its just everyone else in my family isnt into animals as much as i am so they dont rush to the vet when something small comes up, sorry its just them.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I still don't think it's a good idea to let them play together, even if you watch them.

You couldn't stop it if it were to happen. And then what would you do?


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## 2manyrats (Apr 10, 2007)

Rat breeding looks like "playing" until the final act - they jump around, chase each other, and then the male mounts the female. It happens in a SECOND. There's no way you can move fast enough to pull them apart.

Also, I've seen breeding that skipped the initial courting (the part that looks like playing). The guy sauntered up to the girl, and woah! humping. 

*By letting them play together, you are making the decision to breed them.*

Additionally, Templeton may not be interested in Alyssa now, but once he's more mature & Alyssa is in estrus, mating *will* happen.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

How is it so hard to let them play seperatly until Templeton is fixed? No, sounds like you want them to get together 'accidently' and have babies. Oh well, it's your decision ultimately and at least your not going into it without much warning. I geuss maybe it should be left at that and once Alyssa becomes pregnate you can deal with things then.


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## Alyssa_Rat (Mar 19, 2007)

No i dont want them to "accidently" mate on perpose!!! i dont want baby rats and guess what ive seen pics on this site of male and female rats playing together unsafe so back off!!! 

Im sorry but im not taking this any longer... Thanx DonnaK for making the pic.. but i cant take all the pressure from you guys wether your trying to help me or not so im leaving this forum... ill go find another forum were people wont nag me as much.. and i used to like this forum.

Bye


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