# BREEDERS: Would you house a wild rat with a new litter?



## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I've just learned that a woman I had planned to buy my next rat from had put a wild rat in with her new litter, mind you this wild rat was a baby but I'm not sure how old. The wild rat ate the entire litter. To me it kind of sounds like a no brainer that this wasn't a good idea but I want some breeders opinions on it since I honestly know nothing about this stuff.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

It is a no brainer, not only could the wild rat hurt the babies but it could also spread disease and parasites to the litter. Personally, I wouldn't buy from her.


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## Asteria (Jul 6, 2016)

A terrible idea, I would try looking for rats elsewhere.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I definitely don't plan on buying from her anymore. Unfortunately I learned some very bad things about both of the "reputable" breeders in town tonight so I'm not sure where I'll be getting my next babies since the rescues around here only ever have males. It's a little sad to learn people don't care for their animals they're producing like they should.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

One of the breeders tried to sell a woman a 3 week old female when she told it was male and insisted it was "fine". The other breeder has continuously produced litters that are living to around 3-4 months and then dropping dead, but told me they lived to be about 3. Honestly it's disgusting how many people just want to breed for fun and not for the betterment of the species.


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## Asteria (Jul 6, 2016)

Backyard breeders are the worst. They just continuously bring more animals into the world in terrible conditions just so they can make some quick cash.
This thread might be helpful: http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?310362-Breeder-Red-Flags


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Never would I do that. 

It is sad, anyone can be a breeder by just putting together two rats & calling themselves one  

Not always as easy to find, but there are truly good breeders out there  
Where are you located? I may be able to point you to someone.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> Never would I do that.
> 
> It is sad, anyone can be a breeder by just putting together two rats & calling themselves one
> 
> ...


I live in Las Vegas. If you could recommend a good breeder that would be excellent.


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## Perocore (Jan 6, 2014)

If you do find a breeder, I would ask to visit their rattery _before_ committing. I got my boys from a supposedly reputable breeder, and while I loved them to bits and they were wonderful, the situation they were in was horrifying. Ask some questions about the history of the rats, ask about their parents, where they came from, etc. Ask to see the parents and grandparents if possible. If they have any DEW (dark eyed white) rats in their litters or rattery, ask if they ever purposefully breed for them (the answer ought to be no, unfortunately DEW rats tend to have health issues). 

I did a quick search and found both the breeder you had been in contact with (I was rather horrified to find out it was a roof rat, of all things, completely different species from out domestic babies), and also found Ravencharm Rattery in Reno, Nevada. I do not know much about it, but just from checking the breeding rats and care tips, it seems good: http://rattery.ravencharm.com/

Good luck!


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

Raven charm is no longer in business and the breeder I got my first pair from in Reno moved out of town. I would really love another pair from her as they're very healthy and loving but she moved several states away and that's not going to happen


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I do ask a lot of questions, I like to know what I'm getting. The other breeder, not the roof rat one would start to flat out ignore me if I was asking "too many questions". If I were a breeder I would be happy with someone who asked a ton of questions. Nobody who wants snake food is going to ask that many questions. Idk I just wish I could find someone who wasn't so sketchy down here. I know it's the city of sin but that doesn't mean you gotta be terrible. I've found one breeder but she's a newer breeder and although she's been really informative and answered all my questions, her lines are newer so I'm not sure if I trust the health aspect of it. I've already struggled so much with my little peach's health and I want healthy, hearty rats that don't come down with a uri every week. I love my little hairless but she's a LOT of work and it's become very stressful at even the slightest sign of sneezes.


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## Bumble-Bee (Apr 21, 2016)

Oh goodness, I don't know why they think that would be a good idea. I wish you luck finding a good breeder!


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## Asteria (Jul 6, 2016)

> If you do find a breeder, I would ask to visit their rattery _before committing._


A reputable breeder should have a closed rattery IMO. In fact, every reputable breeder I've known doesn't allow people to visit (they should however have pictures of their setup available to view) 
Reasons being, I've heard several cases of ratteries having baby rats going missing after they allowed strangers into their home to look at their rats. It's also not worth the risk to the rats health and wellbeing with contagious dangerous viruses becoming more common such as SDA/Sendai.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> I live in Las Vegas. If you could recommend a good breeder that would be excellent.


hmm I can't think of any there off the top of my head. 

You could try seeing if these groups are active and asking around
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1487811154852605/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1475692609406181/



> If you do find a breeder, I would ask to visit their rattery _before_ committing. I got my boys from a supposedly reputable breeder, and while I loved them to bits and they were wonderful, the situation they were in was horrifying. Ask some questions about the history of the rats, ask about their parents, where they came from, etc. Ask to see the parents and grandparents if possible.



I have to disagree. it may seem difficult to understand but IMO NO reputable breeder would ever let someone into their rattery. By far most breeders (and again IMO all good ones) keep closed ratteries. 

There is a very important reason why. The whole point of why we quarantine actually! There are alot of very dangerous and contagious health risks that can be carried on you and your clothing. Even if you do not own rats there is just no way to be sure that someone didnt stop at a pet store and pick something up. 

One small health risk enters my rattery and it means stopping all sales, costly vet care/meds for my entire rattery, stopping all breeding, worse it can mean death and/or completely ending lines. I won't breed rats that have been exposed or gotten sick. It would ruin my rattery and break my heart. 

And this HAS happened to ratteries in the past. 

it is not worth the risk at all. 

DO check out their online presence, ask for pics if you want. I take like 8 million pics of my rats lol It is very easy to see the difference in a mess and a disgusting living environment. I was just discussing this actually, if you see pics that look disgusting it is a bad sign. Because if they feel ok about posting and sharing that disgusting pic it means they don't see anything wrong with it, that it is normal to them. Big red flag. 

And yes people can lie and only show the good but they can if you visit them too. They can clean the day before or only show you the healthy clean animals. I heard where one bad breeder showed people a single room and everything looked great but she had the rest of her rats in a whole other room that showed the truth but no one saw that. 

The same goes for being able to see their other rats or parents. its a no go. I'd have to put those rats all in quarantine after. 

The truth is you want people who are open, honest, forthcoming and can answer questions.



> If they have any DEW (dark eyed white) rats in their litters or rattery, ask if they ever purposefully breed for them (the answer ought to be no, unfortunately DEW rats tend to have health issues).



This is also not true exactly. Being Black eyed white or "high" white doesn't automatically mean health issues. It is much more complicated than that. There are breeders who breed very healthy lines. 
With many varieties there can be some health issues, you want to make sure your breeder knows what they are doing, understands the lines and has experience with them. Don't be afraid to ask about health issues if you are concerned.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I don't have a facebook unfortunately. It's becoming a huge obstacle in this search effort honestly. Everyone either only advertises on facebook or doesn't believe I'm a real person because I don't have one. Like yes it is 2016, but I also enjoy my privacy and not seeing 30 year olds constantly post about their middle school drama. A little off topic but I'm not going to make a facebook just to prove to people I'm a real person. Clearly I'm real if I'm talking to them and am even willing to show pictures of my current rats and set up. Like come on now people. But anyways, my lack of facebook prevents me from seeing a lot of these red flags. I do understand the closed rattery thing but I do not understand completely ignoring someone because they want to know that they're getting the best, healthiest rats possible.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

I would also like to add that both of those pages you have found are owned and operated by one of the breeders this post was originally about. Not sure if those would be too helpful knowing they're run by a not great breeder in the first place.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> I don't have a facebook unfortunately. It's becoming a huge obstacle in this search effort honestly. Everyone either only advertises on facebook or doesn't believe I'm a real person because I don't have one. Like yes it is 2016, but I also enjoy my privacy and not seeing 30 year olds constantly post about their middle school drama. A little off topic but I'm not going to make a facebook just to prove to people I'm a real person. Clearly I'm real if I'm talking to them and am even willing to show pictures of my current rats and set up. Like come on now people. But anyways, my lack of facebook prevents me from seeing a lot of these red flags. I do understand the closed rattery thing but I do not understand completely ignoring someone because they want to know that they're getting the best, healthiest rats possible.


Ahh yeah I will be honest most breeders are very active on facebook. It is usually the best place to find them. 

but it is weird that they will only talk to u through it I think lol idk. And yeah no one should ignore you.

I do always try to say that someone can be amazing with animals and an amazing breeder but that doesn't always mean they have the best business sense or people skills lol! And breeding is usually a hobby so they may have families and jobs to focus on and may get super busy and just not be timely. But that doesn't mean it doesn't suck to feel ignored.



> I would also like to add that both of those pages you have found are owned and operated by one of the breeders this post was originally about. Not sure if those would be too helpful knowing they're run by a not great breeder in the first place.


lol you should PM me who  I am curious.


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## Fanciful_Foxling (Sep 17, 2016)

Have you tried any of the breeders on the AFRMA breeder list? There are a few in Nevada.

http://www.afrma.org/breederlist.htm


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

Fanciful_Foxling said:


> Have you tried any of the breeders on the AFRMA breeder list? There are a few in Nevada.
> 
> http://www.afrma.org/breederlist.htm


You know what's funny about this is both of these terrible breeders are actually on this list and other "good breeder" lists. You don't have to prove yourself in anyways to be put on these lists. Only pay a yearly fee.


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## Fanciful_Foxling (Sep 17, 2016)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> You know what's funny about this is both of these terrible breeders are actually on this list and other "good breeder" lists. You don't have to prove yourself in anyways to be put on these lists. Only pay a yearly fee.


Ah that's unfortunate that it is that way. I thought they had to meet some standards to be a member of the association.


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

There is a breeder over here in Norcal that raises baby wild rats with nursing domesticated moms. It's their way of trying to social the wild rats I guess. She ends up taking them to SoCal. There is a person who breeds wild rats trying to get them domesticated. Wonder if it's the same person...


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

No, this women is in Henderson and it was a roof rat. I don't think it was a foster situation either. I think she just thought since the roof rat was a baby and she had a litter only a week younger it would be okay. I honestly don't know. It just seems like such a horrible idea. She said the litter had picked up the roof rats wild behavior and in the end the roof rat killed the entire litter and I believe the mother as well.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

gotchea said:


> There is a breeder over here in Norcal that raises baby wild rats with nursing domesticated moms. It's their way of trying to social the wild rats I guess. She ends up taking them to SoCal. There is a person who breeds wild rats trying to get them domesticated. Wonder if it's the same person...


Hmm i wonder who you are talking about?

I know a breeder in Cali who does breed Black Rats (_Rattus rattus) _She is an amazing breeder. I adore her <3


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

Are black rats different as pets other than the size? I'm assuming they can't be housed with brown rats because they're not the same species?

Edit: I wasn't aware roof rats are the same as black rats and I guess I answered my own question above


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> Hmm i wonder who you are talking about?
> 
> I know a breeder in Cali who does breed Black Rats (_Rattus rattus) _She is an amazing breeder. I adore her <3


I didn't even know black rats were kept as pets...are they similar to fancy rats in personality?


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Fancy rats have been bred to be more docile and clam. From what I know, black rats are alot more in touch with their wild instincts. They are affectionate but they are not cuddly. A bit like female rats, they are always on the go and they are extremely nimble like mice, unlike our fancy rats which waddle along slowly. Best way I can sum them up: intelligent and affectionate as a rat, quick and agile as a mouse.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> Are black rats different as pets other than the size? I'm assuming they can't be housed with brown rats because they're not the same species?
> 
> Edit: I wasn't aware roof rats are the same as black rats and I guess I answered my own question above


lol sorry. It is so weird that both of them go by so many different names! I usually think of them just as RR vs RN

I wouldn't think they could be housed together.



> I didn't even know black rats were kept as pets...are they similar to fancy rats in personality?


Not many people keep them as pets. They are not domesticated like fancy rats and as such are not for your average pet owner at all! Some people are trying to domesticate them. 

More high energy, way way way more destructive and can be a bit bitey still. 

This is my friends page if you want to see some pics. http://daveyjonesshiprats.weebly.com/gallery.html
They have a neat look.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

On another note, after about 12 more needless rat deaths, the roof rat lady has decided to stop breeding. All I have to say about this is thank god.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Fu-Inle said:


> Fancy rats have been bred to be more docile and clam. From what I know, black rats are alot more in touch with their wild instincts. They are affectionate but they are not cuddly. A bit like female rats, they are always on the go and they are extremely nimble like mice, unlike our fancy rats which waddle along slowly. Best way I can sum them up: intelligent and affectionate as a rat, quick and agile as a mouse.


Black rats won't be affectionate in most cases. Definitely not like the most active, on the go crazy female rats, not even close. My breeder took back one of her rat (very tame and loving) that got pregnant with a wild rat. Long story short, the babies that are now about two weeks old are scared of humans and hide despite lots of daily handling and socializing, and they are only half black rats. Sure if a great breeder breed them for many many generations you'll get decent pets...but hey you already have that with a rat from a reputable breeder anyway. They are simply wild animals and not pets. It would be cruel and irresponsible to breed them on purpose for pets.


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## Ladylazerstar702 (Sep 15, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Fu-Inle said:
> 
> 
> > Fancy rats have been bred to be more docile and clam. From what I know, black rats are alot more in touch with their wild instincts. They are affectionate but they are not cuddly. A bit like female rats, they are always on the go and they are extremely nimble like mice, unlike our fancy rats which waddle along slowly. Best way I can sum them up: intelligent and affectionate as a rat, quick and agile as a mouse.
> ...


Black rats and brown rats can't reproduce. If there was a successful mating the offspring would not last more than a few weeks if they even made it to term.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> Black rats and brown rats can't reproduce. If there was a successful mating the offspring would not last more than a few weeks if they even made it to term.


I think they meant Brown Wild rats. But yeah wild brown rats are still far different from our domesticated pets in temperament and behavior really.

I do think people get confused thinking that wild animals born in captivity are just going to be magically tame lol so Doesn't work that way. They are very much not the same and really not good pets for most people. They take for more work as well.



> It would be cruel and irresponsible to breed them on purpose for pets.


I disagree. All of our pets were at one time wild. I do think it is not something MOST people should undertake and the ones that do have to be very responsible and do things right & ethically. They also need to be treated with the respect and care of a wild animal, you can not treat them the same as a pet. 

But yeah my friend breeds them and she is a wonderful breeder and does so properly and doesn't sell them as pets.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ladylazerstar702 said:


> Black rats and brown rats can't reproduce. If there was a successful mating the offspring would not last more than a few weeks if they even made it to term.


I know I meant brown rats, sorry


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

moonkissed said:


> I think they meant Brown Wild rats. But yeah wild brown rats are still far different from our domesticated pets in temperament and behavior really.I do think people get confused thinking that wild animals born in captivity are just going to be magically tame lol so Doesn't work that way. They are very much not the same and really not good pets for most people. They take for more work as well.I disagree. All of our pets were at one time wild. I do think it is not something MOST people should undertake and the ones that do have to be very responsible and do things right & ethically. They also need to be treated with the respect and care of a wild animal, you can not treat them the same as a pet. But yeah my friend breeds them and she is a wonderful breeder and does so properly and doesn't sell them as pets.


By cruel and irresponsible I mean if a person with a pet rat would ON PURPOSE breed that pet to a wild rat. But again any backyard breeder is irresponsible, being with rats or any other pets for that matter IMO, so no difference here.


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## Andromeda (Apr 28, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> I do think people get confused thinking that wild animals born in captivity are just going to be magically tame lol so Doesn't work that way. They are very much not the same and really not good pets for most people. They take for more work as well.


Oh God, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Anytime you see one of those stories/videos online of someone being like 'I raised this grizzly bear from the time it was a cub and look how friendly he is! ', you just know it's going to inspire a bunch of idiots to basically kidnap baby wild animals.

A friend of mine works at a rehab center for birds of prey, and you would not believe how many birds they get in from stupid people who took an owl/hawk/falcon/vulture out of the nest as a chick and raised it, thinking they'd end up with a tame, friendly pet. :/


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