# Babies!



## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

My rats Lylith and Luke have a planned litter coming in about two weeks.

My first litter, too.

However, my friend breeds her rats constantly, and doesn't EVER seperate the males and females. She also doesn't ask questions of the people who adopt these sweet little babies. So when one of her "friends" came over with one of her rats...sister to my Luke, and said.."Valerie had 11 babies and won't feed them, what do I do?" ..With all my researching i've been doing, I just had to help.she ended up coming around on her own. Then this girl decided...after intentionally breeding her... that she didn't want Val or the babies anymore. 

Now, my friend already has 18 rats at her place. I have four...and a ton of extra cages i've gotten since deciding to go ahead with a planned litter between my hooded and my Siamese. So, I brought Val and her little sweeties home.
They were born on the 22nd, accordng to the girl. I figured I'd share few pictures of the cuties...








At one week old.








One week and four days.


I also have a question about my pregnant rat.
She refuses to stay in her own cage.. the second she can, she makes a run for it and climbs all over Lukes cage...eventually I cave and let her in.. she's already pregnant.. and they snuggle like mad. Can I let her do this until shes closer to having them?? she's so unhappy without him.

Pic was taken the first day they met.


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## JudeWriley (Aug 1, 2007)

Your best bet would be to keep a girl for Lylith and a boy for Luke so they aren't kept alone. Or after the rittens are weaned, have them both neutered so they can stay together. No offense but "caving in" and letting them breed is in general not a very wise thing to do without extensive breeding knowledge and experience (in the form of a mentor).

As for letting them stay together now... I wouldn't do so myself. Rats can get pregnant again right after giving birth and it wouldn't be fair to Lylith or her babies to even risk put her through the stress of pregnancy again and so soon. 

What kind of bedding is that? You ought not use pine or cedar shavings at all, it's very bad for ratty lungs.

And then there's the issue with breaking quarantine too... You have to be extra careful with pregnant females and babies.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

Why did you breed your rats? Are these rats store bought rats or from a breeder? I would suggest getting your male(s)/female(s) or all of them fixed. If you canâ€™t afford to at least get the males fixed, I donâ€™t think you should be planning litters at all. 

Youâ€™re being very irresponsible when letting your female in with your male. If she takes off for your maleâ€™s cage, then pick her up and put her back in her own cage or put your males cage up so she canâ€™t get to it! Itâ€™s that simple. Why would she be lonely? Does she have a cage mate? 

I was also going to ask about the bedding they are being kept on...It looks like pine/cedar. Thats a BIG no no. 

Did you quarantine at all before introducing those rescued rats to your own? Thereâ€™s nothing you can really do if you didnâ€™t QT...If one of those happen to be sick, one of your own my get sick. Keep a good eye on all those babies.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

as a general rule this forum does not support breeding. if you have chosen to breed intentionally please be prepared for questions on your ethics, genetics, lines, mentor(s) and much much more. because most times it is discovered that the "breeder" is just someone who thought their rats looked pretty the tone of a lot of members when discussing this is a bit aburpt. please keep this in mind and try to not take offense. we are all just concerned for the welfare of the rats, be they ours, someone else's or not yet born. 

that being said i would like to take this early opprotunity to remind members to watch their wording so that the information we want to share is received in the best manner possible. 

also, as it i already see it happening, please make sure to read throughly. if your are going to post a reply make sure you have read all the post carefully so as not to get confused and ask questions that do not apply. 

from what i can gather, the "caving in" was done after lylith was already pregnant from a planned mating. seeing as she's already pregnant the op was asking if it was ok to let luke and her interact until she gets closer to her due date where it is implied that the op would not let the interactions continue once lylith is closer to having her babies. personally i'm unsure how safe this is as she could have her babies early or a miscalculation of when she took could end up with her having the babies in the father's cage then getting pregnant right after. 

also i do not see anywhere where the op said that the rescue mom and her current rats were introduced. the picture of the two rats seem to be of luke and lylith. 

finally we can not really tell from photos is the bedding is pine or aspen. we can warn against pine and ceder but we cannot assume that is what is being used. 

having said all that of course it would still be prudent if the op were to address these concerns and to give us a bit more information on their breeding ethics and plans though.


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## JudeWriley (Aug 1, 2007)

Granted, I did jump to some conclusions regarding the caving in. But from the sound of the original post, and looking it over, she was the owner of 4 rats. So unless it's a 1 to 3 split, each rat would most likely _already _have a cage mate. Which would mean that even though this was a planned breeding at least for now, there'd be no reason for loneliness to be a big issue.

The OP said that she can't say in her own cage and books it to Luke's cage, that doesn't sound like a behavior that would suddenly manifest during a pregnancy. So I just assumed (again perhaps wrongly) that this was the impetus to have them breed in the first place. 

Also she took in the new mom and babies, so I figured they were in the same living space now. Isn't that - not just introductions - enough to warrant a quarantine?


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

QT is complete separation from your rats and the new ones, in a different air space (meaning at least a different room) for 2-3 weeks...I doubt she did QT. 

Even though she has 4 rats, we dont know how many males to females she has...she can have 3 males and 1 female. Thats why I had asked if she was lonely.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

She has three girls and boy, I believe, Luke and Lilith, Spot, and Minnie.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

Oh, thank you Forensic!  So there no reason for her to be loney and let in with the male; the male might be though, but still thats no reason to let them together, thats how oops litters happen.


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## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

Here I thought it would be nice to share pictures of sweet little babies.

Guess I was wrong.

The first pic of the babies..they are in pine/cedar. That was before they were mine. Second picture shows aspen..now that they are home with me.

I'm not going to talk about the planned litter, because thats really NOT what my post was about. Healthy rats, with healthy parents and grandparents = more little babies going to great homes, or staying with me, and rushed to a vet in the case of any complications. End of Discussion with THAT.

I wonder why no one would take the time to read everything..before jumping to conclusions that no one but themselves and the regulars of these forums have read anything/know anything about rats. You see "my rat is pregnant" and automatically assume that I'm clueless..never seperated them, whatever, when if you had have read the post, you would have seen me disapprove of my friend doing that.

Assuming I didn't QT is also pretty offensive, so thanks for that. I had mentioned in another post that I didn't realize before that you should, and now I know. So why wouldn't I?

It's obvious you're all against breeding. However I find it difficult to imagine not one of you has a rat from an "oops" litter.
I also have read alot of other posts...recommending e-spays...then helping out with the babies of that rat. This confuses me.
Why even have a breeding forum if you're going to harass/flame/belittle anyone that comes to share photos or ask questions?

I'm not calling myself a breeder. I'm simply having *a* litter of babies that are already taken.
After I finish moving, Luke is getting a cagemate or neutered. 
I don't appreciate being called irresponsible, and I don't appreciate being attacked when all I did was post cute photos.


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## Mana (Apr 22, 2007)

I usually stay away from this breeding stuff, because it is such a touchy subject, and it's so easy for everyone to get offended/defensive/upset/etc... but I just wanted to point out that the cute baby pictures were not all you posted. You began this thread by saying you deliberately bred two of your rats. And now are getting offended that you're being called on it. If you didn't want to get into that subject, you should not have mentioned it. There really was no need to if all you wanted to do was share pictures of the babies. Also, bringing up possible oops litters of forum members is sort of irrelevant, seeing as how your litter was planned. I know there are a few people around here who have bred intentionally (I think some real breeders as well?), but the majority of people here are against people breeding rats with unknown genetics.

In all honesty, I myself am not sure why there is a breeding forum on here. Given the general attitude toward breeding on here, this forum shouldn't have been renamed to Think Before You Breed, but to Do Not Breed or something. In my opinion, a lot of people who do breed do think about it... they think "My rats are so wonderful and sweet and cute, they should have babies so more people can have rats as great as mine!" or something like that. But I digress.

If you're going to be breeding your rats and talking about it here, be prepared to answer many questions, because you are going to get them.


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## JudeWriley (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm sorry, if it seemed like I was attacking you. That was not my intent, and like I stated before, I jumped to some unfounded conclusions.

That said, you asked a question. And I was trying to get as much information about the situation clarified as I could, otherwise, one could only give an answer that may not have worked.

It wouldn't have been so hard to say "Oh hey guys, despite the photos, they're on aspen now" or mention QT. 

Again I'm sorry for any conclusions _you_ may have jumped to because of my lack of clarification.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

I actually believe more than half of the forum can say for sure they've never caused an oops litter.

I know I can. I have NEVER caused an oops litter.

However, my rescue has been full of them. So yeah, I do get a bit on the annoyed side. I didn't respond to the post before, but honestly... Most "oops" litters aren't. It doesn't take a great genius to realize boys and girls shouldn't be together if they are intact. However, yours ISN'T an oops litter, so I'm a bit confused as to why you said that.

You first said that how dare everyone assume you knew nothing about rats, and then go on to say you didn't know about quarantine. I have to say, I'm a bit confused. A little bit of research into rats would tell you about quarantines, how did you manage to miss that?

Either way... Most people are against breeding, yes. And rightfully so. The same way most are against ANY animals breeding. There are so many animals out in the world that need homes already. Why add more? We believe that people can be very wonderful breeders, but to do so, one needs to be working (mentoring) with an established breeder. You aren't (at least, I'd had hoped you'd say so if you had). We don't support "back yard" breeders, and I'm sorry you think we should.

I'm sure everyone would be more than happy to back off if you list the pedigrees of the rats you are breeding, along with mentioning the established rattery you are mentoring with.  We can certainly make mistakes, when people come and mention purposely breeding, if the person is really an established breeder. But, I'm sorry, I think it's pretty obvious you're not... Well, you said so. If you're "not calling myself a breeder", why on earth are you BREEDING?


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## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

I mentioned the litter between Luke and Lyl because of the question I asked at the end.

You have a problem with ONE litter... with babies I have the ability to care for if homes aren't found.

I mentioned oops litters because of so many people thinking mine WERE an oops.

So, if a person lets their dog have one litter of puppies, does that make it that they own a kennel?

I researched care and breeding.. It did not mention QT between introducing.

Kill the breeding forum on here. I understand your concern..but if you can't present your information to the person in question in a polite way.. Well, I think it hurts more feeling, and makes people more angry then it does help.

Most people won't listen when they're being called names and bombarded with question.

On that note, joining wasn't a good idea. I shall return to lurking now.


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

I would just keep the mom rat with the other girls to be on the safe side. Adorable babies btw =]

(I'm not going to touch the Breeding part since its already been addressed)


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

yah know guys, I know some may be mad at me for saying this, but for those of ya'll who are bashing people, dont. Stay out of it and dont say rude things. people come on here to post questions and get answers, not to get bashed for doing something or asking something. If you think your teaching people a lesson, your not. So I say just dont worry about posting if you're going to be rude about it.

p.s. this is only directed towards the bashers...


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

I don't see anyone bashing you. Nobody is saying anything except for that a person who is not educated in breeding rats has no business breeding rats. Nobody has gone off on you, called you bad names, or trashed you in any way. Rat fanciers want the BEST for rats - breeding unpedigreed rats is not what's best, in any way, shape or form.

A good thing to do before joining at a form is to read previous posts. There have been MANY posts in the past that make obvious reference to the fact that many of us do NOT agree with anyone adding to the overpopulation of rats by breeding, unless you are an established breeder and the lines of your rats can be traced. This subject comes up every few days or so.

The fact is, that many of us run, volunteer or support rat rescue - getting homes for the rats ALREADY born who need them. It's hard to find a good rat fancier forum where people believe breeding "willy nilly" is fine. Many do not agree with it.

But honestly, so far, this thread is a lot more tame than many others here, and certainly a lot more tame than you'd get at other forums. If you don't know the basics of quarantining, of housing pregnant does with males, etc... People are going to wonder why you decided to breed.

But bashing? Maybe it's just me, but I see nothing but people holding back what they may really want to say.

If you post a question and don't like the answer you get, does that really make those who reply wrong? Unless the mods think anyone has stepped out of line, you're not the one to say that nobody should reply if it's an answer you don't want. Questioning what you've said and why you choose to breed isn't bashing. Something like:

"You BLANK, what the BLANK do you think you're BLANK doing, you BLANK" would be bashing. "Why did you breed?" is not bashing, and giving advice NOT to breed also isn't bashing. You said there was name calling, could you point out where? I've gone over the replies and see nobody having called you a name.

That said, your question HAS been answered. It would be best not to let them get together. If your female is not in a cage that keeps her contained, you might want to do something about that. She can get pregnant immediately after giving birth. Unless you plan to keep breeding, I'd prevent that if I were you.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

I also have to agree that noone here has been Flamming or Bashing you on this thread! We want to know more about your rats...Im not going to apologize for being concerned and wanting to help and know about yoru situation. Wow...so this is what happends when I try to help someone...I give up....


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

savveth~ I know you mean well but this a public forum. Everyone has a right to their opinion and are allowed to express it. They might not sugar coat things but there is no rule that states you have to anyway.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

savveth - 

Your being rude for accusing people of bashing when they are only trying to help. No one has "bashed" sinfulvampress. She asked a question, we want to help, but the only way to do so is to ask questions and tell her what she IS doing wrong. We cant help someone who doesnt want to take the advice given...and if they dont like the answer they shouldnt trun around and say we are being mean.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

savveth said:


> yah know guys, I know some may be mad at me for saying this, but for those of ya'll who are bashing people, dont. Stay out of it and dont say rude things. people come on here to post questions and get answers, not to get bashed for doing something or asking something. If you think your teaching people a lesson, your not. So I say just dont worry about posting if you're going to be rude about it.
> 
> p.s. this is only directed towards the bashers...


Savveth, she wasn't really asking questions. If she wanted to introduce her baby pics she coulda put it in Meet My Rat. She could've asked in Rat Health about the girl staying with the boy. She is a self-admitted lurker so she knows how this forum works. :roll: 

and if she was that educated about rat care she would know that NO you should not leave the rat couple together.

Everything else was covered.

To the OP, those babies you are going to adopt out or keep. They are now possibly replacing rats in terrible situations who will die or be pts at shelters because they were left behind for your cute little babies. Do you see what we mean now?

I take in rescues (unlike Kimmiekins I am not a Rescue) in my city. I take in the deitrus of the rat world. Sooo many of mine were going to be let "free" in the woods, or pts because of overcrowding or the shelter just doesn't like rats, etc. They are wonderful wonderful rats almost all of them and deserved a chance at life. I just took in a single ratgirl whose cagemate was pts because she was "self-inflicting" When I got my lonely scared girl home I found out she had lice and mites, which were easily treated. Her friend died because they thought she was hurting herself, not just going mad with scratching her parasites.


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

Sorry guys. I guess I shouldn't post when Im stressed. My dad's in the hospital and stuff, so i was already unnerved, then I started reading the posts in the wrong tone of voice. Goodness, I wish there was a way to know the tone of voice people are using. I apologize for being a hippocryte.


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## chrisstrikeagain (Apr 10, 2007)

sinfulvampress, please stay with the forum! it'd be a shame for someone to leave because they feel offended.

To answer your question, I'd get your little boy nuetered then they can always play together since they so seem to like eachother. 

Cute little babies!

Anythin else i need to say has been said.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

I'll not comment on what most everyone has commented on. It's mostly already been covered. 

However, how old are the two parents? From the looks of them in the photo, they are very young. Too young to be bred. Do you have any knowledge of their backgrounds, what types of problems they could be carrying? Did you look for homes before you bred them, or did you breed them and then start looking?

What area are you in? Is there a demand for rats, or are there several needing homes already? Some things to consider before you breed..


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

I believe those were pictures of when the two rats first met...Thats what she said though.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

JennieLove said:


> I believe those were pictures of when the two rats first met...Thats what she said though.


I think she said Lyl's... four months? (The chirpy,sneezy thread)...


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## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

Yes, Lyl is four months, Luke is 6 months.

Before deciding to breed them, I spoke with Luke's mother, Yayo's owner.. who owned Yayo's mother as well. Granted, Luke's grandmother was a pet store rat, but she lived to 2 1/2 with no health problems. Yayo is just over a year now and appears healthy. I have a baby, Spot, from her most recent litter. Luke's father, Bobby, was a PEW who came from the owner of Yayo's friend, who claimed there was no health problems.

Lylith came from a pet store. Before you get too uppity on that, let me say that the conditions of this particular pet store surpasses anything I've ever seen, and I was let in the back to meet her parents. She wasn't QT in the traditional sense..but I had her by herself and away from Luke for about 2 weeks, because well, duh, male and female.

I then checked the following websites of SPCA's and petfinder for rats near me..not just to see the number of potential orphans but to adopt some myself  

http://hbspcapets.shelterbuddy.com/search/?s=adoption&newsearch=yes 
^^my local spca

http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/adopt/petharbor_others.asp
Toronto SPCA

http://search.petfinder.com/search/...Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=hamilton,+on
Petfinder found two adoptable rats within close distance..and none in my city.

I then posted an ad on kijiji.ca about them, and got about 6 responses.

three people are committed to taking at least two.. one person wants to take one.. I asked her to think about two and she agreed...tentatively.the rest are either thinking about it or waiting to see the babies
first.
However, Like I said..I have no problem keeping them if i need to.

As you can see, I've done my homework. I'm prepared for them all to get homes..I'm prepared to keep them all.

As a side note: If all you ever breed is "pedigreed" rats...won't they all technically be inbred?

I know it may seem that I'm doing this carelessly, because I avoid talking about it.. but if I slip up on a word..say the wrong thing..i'm going to have to try and explain myself more. And theres only so many words you can tumble out before people stop listening....


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

Its not the conditions of the store, its the background of the animal.


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## JennieLove (Jan 2, 2007)

sinfulvampress said:


> As a side note: If all you ever breed is "pedigreed" rats...won't they all technically be inbred?


what are you getting at? Are you trying to say that pedigreed rats are worst/just as bad as store baught rats? Pedigreed rats are bred by proffestionals who have kept records of blood lines and tracked their health for any problems, thats the point.


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## TEKRats (Jun 18, 2007)

4 months is WAY too early for a female rat to be bred. Yes, rats CAN reproduce that early but it is the equal to an adolescent - NOT an adult and not the age that anyone that has a knowledge of breeding practices would think of pairing up their rats.


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## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

No, I was just saying that..it's exactly like dogs or cats... that if you want every rat to have pedigreed "blood" persay, at the end of the day you're really just inbreeding?

Would it not, *theoretically*, be feasible to get a pet store/feeder rat.. breed it for a few generations, and, barring health problems, THEN be able to sell the babies? after you've....established your own blood line, I guess you could say. As long as the initial rats lived out long, healthy lives with regular vet checks..what would be the problem with this?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I think you need at least five back crosses to figure out what your line would carry and you'd need to see each of those generations to their end and document exactly what they died from (or why they were pts, etc) to even think of establishing a pet store line. And then you have to consider that you may have to breed out the bad things in the line, that's more time and more money, and until then you can't really be considered a reputable breeder... Or you could mentor with a real breeder, learn the ins and outs, get a good pair of pedigreed rats, start out well, and know the ropes to start off with.


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## Kimmiekins (Apr 14, 2007)

Established breeders often cross-breed their own stock, I believe, but they also introduce lines from other established breeders. I do believe there is some inbreeding - which is NOT as bad as people think, when done right, but I don't think there's as much as you would expect.

However, I'll bow to TEK, as he is probably one of the most recognized and established breeders of rats, along with having a huge presence in the rat show field.

But I did have to say... Breeding at 4 months? *wince* Most of the mothers through our rescue are 3-4 months old.  That's like [human] children having babies.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

As has already been said, your female rat is much too young to be having babies. Her body is doubly taxed because she is still growing and now must contend with the energy needed to develope them.

You say you did your home work, but you obviously missed that essential information. What else have you probably missed? And your local HS and petfinder ads aren't the only places to look to see if you are breeding rats where there are already many to needing homes.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

4 months! Please dont breed them at 4 months....
Better yet, Dont breed them.


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## twilight (Apr 20, 2007)

I may be looking at this the wrong way but it seems to me like it would be easy to prevent inbreeding. You just don't keep the babies and you get new rats shipped to you to insure you are getting fresh lines.

Breeding pet store rats shouldn't be done. Period.


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## Rodere (Feb 26, 2007)

Line breeding, or in-breeding as it were, is a very useful tool with breeders. It's been used in dogs and cats and other animals for years. Fortunately with rats, it is not as damaging to the offspring. Rats are not considered genetically inbred until the 20th generation.

Linebreeding is used to determine if there are any 'bad' genes in a bloodline and to eventually get them out of the bloodline. And outcrossing is eventually used to keep the bloodline strong.

Inbreeding is mostly considered bad because people find it distasteful. However, it does have a purpose to serve when selectively breeding animals to produce better offspring.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Inbreeding is distasteful for genetic reason when it amplifies distasteful traits. Obviously a skilled breeder will be breeding these traits out with outcrosses, but an inexperienced breeder may only amplify them.


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## ambernd (Apr 17, 2007)

I have a question... If you have read up so much on breeding rats, shouldn't you have known that 4 months is way to young to breed? From the looks of it, it looks like your just breeding because you want some cute little babies. 

And I really do understand you about people taking everything the wrong way (wich they have the right to) but when I had 2 "oops" litters right in a row, and I felt like people where attacking me. But now after it was all said and done, I understand why they where "attacking" me. I know relized how hard it was to rehome my rats and go through raiseing them. All the people I had lined to adopt my rats dropped out on me at the last second. And believe me I had to deal with 10 rats at one time in a 2 room trailer. It was ****. But I have learned my lesson even though mine where opps litters. If I ever do breed it will be pedigreed rats. Right now you really have no idea how hard it is to raise rats. But after this is said and done, believe me you will understand why people where "Bashing" you..... 

BTW your babies are absolutly adorible!!! And I hope people will back off just a little bit but I know they have the right to be stressed at you and they have the right to bombard you will questions... I just hope things turn out ok for you...

Best of luck,
Amber


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## sinfulvampress (Aug 22, 2007)

Internet problems have kept me away for a while. While I don't want to start up the fighting again I'd just like to point out a couple things.


http://www.ratz.co.uk/breeding.html

"Breeding age - Does should not be bred from under 4 months old, and ideally should be bred from before 8 months old, particularly if you are considering a second litter as well. "

http://www.geocities.com/orrattery/breedingFAQ.html
"What is the best age to breed?
The best age to breed a female is 4-5 months. If you want to breed an older female that has never had a litter before then I'd advise against that. 8 months is the limit to a first breeding before a rat can have her hips start growing together again, in which case you'd need to get her a C-section or she'd die. Some older females reabsorb the babies before their born too but I wouldn't tempt fate."

http://www.worldofrats.com/ROUSBreedingFAQ1.html
Q: What is the best age to breed a female rat?
A: There are multiple schools of thought on this, but in my opinion from my own personal experience, I prefer to wait until the female is at least 4 months of age, provided sheâ€™s of good size and weight, and not to breed for the first time once the female is older than 10 to 12 months. For a second litter, up to 12 â€“ 14 months seems to be safe. Again, this is from my experience and your mileage may vary.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/repro.html
The best time to breed a female for the first time is at 4-5 months of age.

http://www.boardmanweb.com/rattery/ratbreeding.htm
Breeding Age:
Female rats can get pregnant very young. Itâ€™s best never to keep males and females together past the age of 6 weeks. Best breeding age should be based on the size of the female: As long as the female is sufficiently grown, 4 months at the earliest with 6 â€“ 7 being optimal. Females in good health and body structure can be as bred as late as 10 months and later depending on the genetic line. If you are not familiar with the line you are breeding, it might be best to breed the doe earlier.

So while 4 months is the bare minimum, it appears to me to be widely accepted as the norm.


So in case anyone is wondering, My Lyl had five little babies on the 10th of September. They're incredible soft, and I'm wondering if they're satin? I'm not sure if you're able to tell by the photos. (taken with a crappy camera phone)

Lyl is doing awesome, and is such a great mom. When I take out the babies every day to play with them and take pictures to send to the people adopting them, if I keep them too long she'll run over and take them back.









1 day old.










3 days old









3 days old


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6 days old









6 days old









6 days old









6 days old (no idea why it blurred in one spot)









6 days old


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## TEKRats (Jun 18, 2007)

I can find outdated misinformation on many subjects on many different places on the internet as well, from many different sources. This does not mean it is correct or "widely accepted as the norm" - nor does it mean it is what anyone reputable or respected does. 
(btw, anything that quotes information about hips fusing is a load of garbage, so there is more false information that one could take as fact)

Satins have curly whiskers when they are born - all babies are soft.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i thought satins simply had softer coats because they had no guard hairs. i didn't know they were related to the rex genes.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Since TEKrats breeds satins I found an answer he made when someone asking what a Satin was;

_Satin is a recessive gene. Both of these rats parents carried the satin gene thus many of the pups express this gene. Here is the Satin standard as it is written on the RSA website: "The ideal coat has a unique and distinct appearance with its lustrous sheen. The coat is thinner and longer-looking. The hair should be fine to the touch. The satin coat has a sparkling look on some colors". When the satin gene appears by itself the pups have an oily look about them and wavy, curled whiskers that eventually straighten out with age.
However, when satin is combined with other genes, such as the rexing genes - you can see what interesting things happen! _

And some baby pics of the satins he was showing in that thread








and you just have to love this little fella :roll:


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

oh wow! those guys are so cute! 

but i guess that means my extra soft little Tween isn't a satin, i can't ever remember her with curly whiskers and i had since she was about 5-6 weeks old. i wonder if her coat type as a name at all or if she is just a bad satin. he coat is SO SOFT though. its like touchy baby bunny fur.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twitch said:


> oh wow! those guys are so cute!
> 
> but i guess that means my extra soft little Tween isn't a satin, i can't ever remember her with curly whiskers and i had since she was about 5-6 weeks old. i wonder if her coat type as a name at all or if she is just a bad satin. he coat is SO SOFT though. its like touchy baby bunny fur.


Some rats end up with the softest fur, some with smooth, sleek fur, but satin's are not common, and I don't think will show up in the general pet rat populace yet. 

Btw Tek ratties are much revered and most of us can just dream of them.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

rereading that post of mine... wow, there were a lot of typing errors, i hope everyone is able to understand it. 

i can see why tek's rats would be so revered with such adorable little pictures like that. where is tek located anyway?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

twitch said:


> rereading that post of mine... wow, there were a lot of typing errors, i hope everyone is able to understand it.
> 
> i can see why tek's rats would be so revered with such adorable little pictures like that. where is tek located anyway?



Philadelphia

http://www.tekkarats.com/

Dan (TEK) knows that I used to despise breeders having only been exposed to unethical ones, until I "_met_" him and some of his colleagues/friends and have now seen how its _supposed _to work. How much care, and love/sweat/tears goes into the whole thing, and how there is no money at all in it.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

twitch said:


> oh wow! those guys are so cute!
> 
> but i guess that means my extra soft little Tween isn't a satin, i can't ever remember her with curly whiskers and i had since she was about 5-6 weeks old. i wonder if her coat type as a name at all or if she is just a bad satin. he coat is SO SOFT though. its like touchy baby bunny fur.


Well, aren't TEK's babies there Satin _Rex_ though? I don't think all Satin's have whiskers that curly. 8O


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Forensic said:


> twitch said:
> 
> 
> > oh wow! those guys are so cute!
> ...


OK I realized that was misleading but here's a pic of his own TEK rats that he has being bred by his mentored breeder at Neo Ratttery.
satin-satin-rex









Satin rex closeup...they have wild whiskers...









Aha...found a good pic!!
Satin rex and satin regular coat males









and from TEK









and one last (fav) image of a standard satin boy


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## Mana (Apr 22, 2007)

Wow, I love those crazy coats and whiskers! I wish I could get some TEK babies ^_^


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Heh! They look like they've been brushed backwards.


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