# Aggressive rescue rat



## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Good day to all.

We recently rescued two rats on Sunday. We were told they hadn't been handled much, if at all, and were very skittish. We've hand tamed nervous rats before so we ok with that.

We left them alone for the first day. Just talking to them softly and letting them get used to their new home.

Yesterday my partner put his hand in the cage slowly, just to let them sniff it and one of them lunged at it and bit is so badly it was bleeding for quite a while. It was a complete shock! 

Since then I've fed them yoghurt from a spoon, and while they were unsure of it last night they were really loving it this morning and seem more used to me moving around their cage and talking to them (they don't run for cover as much now when I walk in the room or bend down to talk to them). However, I'm not sure if this is a concern, but the same rat who bit now runs up to the side of cage where I am and is either sniffing intently or huffing. I'm not sure of which! Sniffing intently obviously wouldn't be a problem but I'm worried that he might be huffing at me because he feels aggressive towards me being by his cage. I was speaking to him earlier though and he started bruxing and boggling.

I've had a rat that bit before in the past but he was fine with me handling him so it wasn't quite as difficult as it is now. My partner is very wary of us trying to touch them at all now but I know they won't get used to us if we don't at least try. The other rat seems a lot calmer at least and hasn't shown any aggressive signs, just nervousness. In fact his friends tends to dominate him a lot and jump on him so I don't know if his friend is just really hormonal? We were told they were six months so it would seem about right for them. We are already considering neutering them anyway.

Does anyone have any advice?


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

If they are 6 months old and haven't been handled, the bite could be either fear fueled or aggressive. I recently went from biting rat to lovey rat in this thread:http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?267114-I-m-not-sure-I-can-do-this. I'm pretty sure Petey's biting was from fear rather than aggression. If your rat is being aggressive the thread on immersion and especially the part about "extreme immersion" can be really helpful. If it's aggression, neutering can help if that is already in your plans, but with extreme immersion it may not be necessary.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Thank you. I'll have a read of it now.

I just had their cage up on my bed while I sat next to it with the door open. The bitey rat came out a couple of times and sniffed around and sniffed my foot but didn't lunge at me at all. I didn't try and interact at all, just sat there and talked softly to him. So I wonder if it is just that he doesn't like people invading his cage.

Since that went well enough I am planning to do it once a day now and build up his confidence with me. I've already put some old socks of mine in there with them.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I really don't like working with new rats in a cage, no matter how big the cage is, they can feel trapped and can lash out in fear as well as aggression. In the immersion area, a fearful rat has room to run away while an aggressive rat will attack you. This gives you a better chance of properly diagnosing the problem. With a fearful rat, it's all about gentle and reassuring communication engaging your rat without cornering or threatening it... and this can take time, sometimes a lot of time... but you are treating the right problem with the right treatment.

With an aggressive rat there's extreme immersion, it's ugly and combative but it teaches an aggressive animal where your place and his place in your family is, it's not about beating a rat into submission, it's just a matter of establishing proper social order in your group. 

There's nothing wrong with wearing protective gear including oven mitts or gloves in immersion until you know your rat isn't likely to bite you... There are no purple hearts awarded in immersion so don't be braver than you have to be. You aren't likely to hurt your rat, but an aggressive rat can send you to the emergency room or even take out an eye. So be careful.

Extreme immersion is only for aggressive rats... rats that attack you without being cornered or threatened. Mostly they behave like schoolyard bullies. It should be avoided with normal rats as it's both unnecessary and isn't going to do any good. It might even make a fearful rat more fearful. So making the correct diagnosis is all important in administering the correct treatment.

Best luck.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for the reply.

I sat with them again today with the cage on the bed. The bitey one peered out of the door so I showed him my fist and he did try and bite me (he only grazed me as I was quick enough to get away), I "eeped" to tell him I didn't like it but I think the immersion area is what I'm going to have to do.

We are going to get some thick gloves today. Still not sure how his friend is as he's a lot more wary about approaching but we might as well wear gloves to get him out too just in case. We have a little pen we could sit in with them though it's made of thick cardboard and not super high so I'm a bit worried they might jump over it and chasing them might make them more fearful. I could try the bathroom with it I suppose. It's super big in there and pretty neutral ground.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

I meant to say it's not super big in there!

I read some of your immersion thread. So I'm going to get the bitey one out first with gloves and sit with him until he stops biting me. How would you show your dominance though? I'll have treats and scritches ready for when he changes his tune and starts being more mellow.
To be honest while he is a bit nervy he is quite inquisitive and eager to come to the cage door so I don't think it's completely fear that is motivating him. I do fear I have an aggressive rat!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The first part of the session is diagnostics... let him tell you what his problem is... If he's fearful, he'll run away from you, gently try and coax him out of his shell without really cornering him too much... then he'll hopefully respond by becoming more familiar with you and responding with less and less fear... This can take a while...

On the other hand, after he gets used to the immersion area he might turn and attack you... this is where it gets ugly... fast. Watch for his fur standing up and his stature getting more rigid... and his focus on you getting more keen, like he's assessing an adversary... always be ready to defend yourself, because rats can attack fast and with little warning... Toss a towel or blanket on him if things really get out of control... The nice thing about having a little room in the immersion area is to give you space to defend yourself in.

Some folks have fairly aggressive personalities, some folks don't. So there's an element of interpretation that goes into what I'm about to say....

You don't really need to attack your rat... just try and engage him in a friendly reassuring manner.... He will attack you... that's him communicating with you. Mostly he's saying back off, I'm in charge... I'm big and bad. You basically respond by aggressively defending yourself.... just swat him back, flip him over with a quick hand scoop, or bop him, you don't have to hold him down. Now naturally, it should go without saying that you realize he's a small animal and you don't really want to hurt him... But he's also a tough and resilient animal that doesn't need kit glove handling either. Be assertive and aggressive in defending yourself, don't eep... shout. 

When he tells you he's the bully and he's in charge, you respond by saying "NO! I'm the bear in this room! I'm the alpha and you will not ever bite me or bad things will happen to you." He's likely to redouble his efforts to back you down, but then he's going to get it. Lots of rats will preen when they thing... let him be when he's preening or thinking. There's a lot for him to reconsider... like how should he react when he realizes he can't push you around...

Rats are smart, really smart. And they adapt. Once he gets that you are in charge he's likely to want to curry your favor and to be your friend. By not trying to beat him into submission more than you have to... he'll realize that he's initiating the conflict and is likely to try something else... this turn of events can be rather sudden... Kind of like the Japanese Empire surrendering after being nuked... One day it's all bonsai and kamikaze, the next it's making cheap cars and toys for american consumers. Suddenly rats just get that it's better to be friends with the big strong humans than to fight them.

Now we move on to the Martial plan of reconstruction for your relationship... Sorry for the mixed World War II metaphors, but now that the aggressive biting is over, it's time to rub his belly if he flips over to surrender or let him nap on you to show you accept him and that you are welcoming him into your family. This is an important step in immersion. Then you start working with him like you would a normal rat... Try and assess what he's telling you and respond appropriately with love and compassion... just be his friend and show him there are no hard feelings... Don't rush this phase of the bonding process. Really make a huge deal of him accepting his place in your social order... give him treats skritches etc. Really make him feel loved and secure, don't just plunk him into the cage.

At some point, you can take the gloves off and remove your armor and really interact with him... don't rush disarming until you are certain he's behaving properly, but don't be defensive when he offers you his friendship.

So yes, extreme immersion can get nasty, there's a fine line between assertively and aggressively defending yourself and attacking him, which you don't want to cross. Gloves and armor gives you a little protection so you can take slightly more risks but don't let him hurt you and don't hurt him. After it's over spend a lot of time with him, one person stayed up all night and played with his formerly aggressive rat until he had to go to work the next day... another carried their former monster around on shoulder all day and the next day until the rat got so used to being on shoulder he just about never got off... he became a hear rat and spent every day doing chores around the house with his human mom. 

Rats need social order and they need to be loved, like any good parent you have to provide both... Normally you just have to love your rats and social order takes care of itself... but you can't show a rat your love while he's attacking you. Extreme immersion requires you to fix the social order issue, so you can move on to bonding and building a healthy relationship. Like a business, when there's a good secure boss in the department everything works well, when the boss is insecure or not existent, everyone tries to play boss and undermines everyone else's work and the department fails. And oddly as much as we all like to be the boss, sometimes it's way better to have a good boss and work in a successful department, with other folks that enjoy what they do too. For the most part rats prefer to have a strong and fair human in charge than to live in chaos always fighting for status.

So if your rat doesn't attack you... don't attack him, just work to build trust and show him he has nothing to fear from you. If he attacks you... unfortunately you have an extreme immersion situation and you defend yourself until he realizes that resistance if futile. (Yes... WW II to quoting the Borg, I must be having an off day.) I know this is a guide and not a cook book, you are going to have to make tough calls on the fly and you might get some wrong, but it's going to work anyway, it just might take a little longer. Think of yourself as a parent and your rat as a child that's behaving badly and challenging your authority or as an alpha rat that's being challenged for status, you don't want to hurt your family member, but you have to maintain order. You have to be firm before you can be fair. It's nice to be the good parent who always says yes and encourages their children, but sometimes you just have to say no and set limits.

Just a final explanation of good social dynamics... last night, after being told repetitively to stop digging in my flower pots, Misty knocked over a really beautiful orchid.... there was plant, wood chips and broken pot all over the floor and I laid into Misty... she knew better and I was livid. And she's giving me the I didn't do anything wrong attitude. Suddenly Cloud scurries out from under her metal cabinet and starts inspecting the mess, then she came to me to be picked up... like she was taking responsibility and apologizing for her younger friend. This was actually rather sweet and she calmed me down... Cloud is a very sweet and intelligent rat, she never does any damage in the house and never needs to told twice if she does something wrong... She see's her role as mom to Misty and like any good mom she came out to calm down dad and make peace. I can't say all human moms would come out and face down an angry dad, but Cloud did. That takes courage and smarts and it really demonstrates how social order works in my household... Misty is a precocious and obstinate child, she likes to get her way and push her limits... and sweet and reliable old Cloud steps right up to protect and defend her even when Cloud's back is covered in scratches and tiny bites from Misty playing too rough. It really is hard to imagine how animals as small as rats can understand their rolls in social and family order, but they do. I'm hoping Misty got that she shouldn't dig in the flower pots and that it won't happen again. Rats are smart and she's going to get it, hopefully before I'm out of flowers. Today I plan to spend a little more time with her and show her she is still loved. Misty is a really great rat, she just has to understand the rules of the house and things will just keep getting better for her.

Best luck.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey it's me again. I think the problem with him is fear rather than aggression. I had him out on the bed for two hours and he never ran and bit me. He actually settled down in my lap and let me stroke him a bit. He just really doesn't like being picked up and is afraid of people's hands approaching him. Whenever I pick him up he squeaks frantically and one time he was wriggling in my gloved hands and bit me to try and get away. He doesn't always like it when I stroke him either. He sort of sits up slowly and turns towards me defensively.

I did put him on my shoulder and he was ok there and when he wanted to jump down he wasn't too bothered by jumping into my hand to get down. But he just hates it when I'm approaching him I find. He rolled over with his belly exposed twice as well so I stroked his tummy but I'm not sure where to proceed from here. It's like he's ok running around me but being picked up terrifies him and he doesn't like being stroked much either. Is this something you think that will just take time? Should I be continuing to pick him up to get him used to it?

His friend is fine btw, just timid but a lot better and not defensive. He just needs to get to know me better I think like any young rat. I'm just concerned about his defensive friend now.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not sure why, but working with a rat in his cage just seems to aggravate matters. It's not something I ever tried or considered so I can't say why... The fact that a rat has a bit of running room and isn't cornered seems to make him much more relaxed and open to communicating with a new human... It's strange, but being able to run away from you (to a certain extent) makes a rat much more likely to approach you...

My background is in psychology, so I really intended to work out all of the theory before I published immersion, but while I was working on the why's aggressive rats were being PTS and what I knew worked wasn't helping anyone... So, despite some early criticism for lack of empirical data, I released immersion and it's somewhat incomplete theory. As I had full confidence that it worked, it's helped a lot of rats and humans, but some of the why's aren't likely to be answered any time soon. Or maybe they will. 

I don't believe that a bed is the optimal immersion area, chasing a rat around can be counterproductive if it keeps trying to jump down onto the floor, but lots of people have used it and I use it with small rat pups. If it works with your rat, by all means continue... Likely hundreds if not thousands of successful immersions have been done on beds. As long as it gives you and your rat enough maneuvering room and you aren't constantly playing catch the rat it's as good an immersion space as any. We all have to work with what we have at hand and optimal doesn't matter much if you just don't have it.

It really sounds like you are making real progress, it's great to hear your rat is snuggling with you or napping on you and is rolling over in submission to be belly skritched... these are wonderful signs of good things to come. And your diagnosis that he's fearful of hands makes some degree of sense too. It's fair to say many rats have been mishandled or mistreated before you get them and they bring all of their unpleasant experiences with them when you adopt them. Sometimes undoing the damage someone else caused is the hardest part of immersion. 

Now here's another strange fact about rats... somehow they tend to understand normal human emotional reactions better than contrived communications... When a rat nips you, you feel pain and get angry... that's normal and rats understand that. When you process your reaction into some politically correct response like eeping, rats don't have a clue what you are doing. When he nips shout NO! Flick him off or back. And surprisingly he'll get what you are doing and feeling... Just let yourself react naturally... of course you don't need to toss him into a wall or overreact theatrically... but react naturally and spontaneously and he'll understand more quickly. Yes it might frighten him a little, but that will make him think and he'll stop doing it... When my daughter does something that displeases my wife she'll carry on theatrically for some time, while my daughter tunes her out and dissolves into her tablet game. When my daughter upsets me, I respond honestly and in the moment and my daughter can instantly gauge just how angry I am... She's a good and a smart girl and by the time I finish my first breath she's got the message. While mom puts on a big boring show, dad really gets upset. So don't piss off daddy is always a good idea. It doesn't happen often, in fact its very rare... for two reasons, one she's a smart girl and second because she knows I'm being real and if I look angry, it's because I really am and because I have a really good reason to be so she doesn't do the same stupid or dangerous thing again. Rats like kids understand real emotions and real communication, mostly they haven't a clue why you are eeping or lecturing them. This works with both an aggressive and a fearful rat. Either way you are telling him he can't bite you. Its just not acceptable or tolerated. Remember your rat is a small animal, be natural and sincere, but exercise self control before you go over the top.... you are wearing gloves so you shouldn't be getting hurt so you should be able to maintain sufficient self control.

Some rats, especially girls don't always like getting stroked, in time you will learn more about your boys, for now it's likely part of his fear of hands and handling... Our youngest girl doesn't like being restrained or being put back in her cage and she's not big on being stroked of skritched unless she's laying around napping, then she seems to enjoy it. But she loves play fighting and when she wants to be picked up she'll come right to hand. Our older girl wants to be carried everywhere... she's really quite lazy and if she sees me heading across the house, she'll hitch a ride rather than walk on her own. In time you'll discover what your rats likes and doesn't like, but either way he's got to get over freaking out when he gets picked up and nipping you. Unfortunately he's a rat and you are his human parent... and you have to be able to safely handle him whenever you need to... there's no compromise there. He may not always like being picked up or being skritched, but he still can't bite you. So you have to keep working on fixing that problem.

All in all you are making very good progress. Keep working on being friendly and playful and protective... If he naps on you take a nap together, if he wants belly rubs go way out of your way to show him how much you love and accept him, build the bond and show him you understand... Measure your responses if he misbehaves, but keep it sincere and real, be yourself and don't act like you think he might understand you. Rats get real human responses better than synthetic ones... Once the biting stops naturally it's all fun and games...

Once you get through immersion, you can walk your rat around the house with you to explore together and you can take him down to the floor for some fun and exploration... Rats love to explore with their humans... you need to teach your rats their names and the come command and up on hand command so you can get them back when they go into and under things. You can even teach them tricks... there's no limit to what your rats can learn. But mostly they want to be part of your family, like a family dog or even a kid. That's your eventual goal, to facilitate your rats joining your family...

Best luck.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey. Just an update. It's both good and bad.

I get them both out for an hour a day now. I give them grapes when they are out to make them see it as a good thing and I'm able to get Loki (the bitey one) out by having him run into a tube that I can then lift out. He mostly sits away from me when he's out and is very defensive still if I try and touch him. His friend, Zen, runs all over the place and while still wary is getting gradually better with being picked up and stroked.

I fed Loki a grape from my hand earlier which was good! But then when I picked him up to put him back in his cage he really got frightened and bit down hard on my gloved hand. If I hadn't been wearing the glove I think he would have done some real damage. As it is he did pierce the skin.

I don't really know what to do with him? I try and give him his space and he doesn't really come over to me or trust me. I try and pick him up and he bites me. He's not aggressive because he only does it when he's obviously fearful but I don't know how to get him use to being picked up and stroked if he's going to try and bite me every time? Like I yelled really loudly ow when he did it but I don't think it really registers to him because he's so frightened himself.

Just patience maybe? Let him approach me?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In the cage, who's in charge?

Also if you can, post a vid of how your rats act in your session... just typical behaviors, it doesn't have to be the whole session... But do try and get some interaction with you, without getting bitten...

And yes gloves are the only way to handle problem rats... they really can hurt you and that's why eventually they are just too dangerous to keep in the home if they can't be fixed.


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

It sounds like me you are dealing with both fear and aggression. I'm going to guess your biter is the alpha of the other male, so he feels that he needs to be in charge in some way. We humans don't really respect ratty conversation. So it will take time for you to really read him.

It's going to make it more difficult because you are dealing with fear as well as a very strong alpha personality. (maybe some hormonal stuff happening even)

If it was me I would continue as you are with trying to make him not fearful by bribing with favorite treats. I would try to keep diet really basic, such as just pellets while you are at this stage, so it makes your treats all the better.

The second side of this, imo, is dealing with the hormonal male aggression. Huffing is a definite warning, if he sidles at you that is another warning as well. Some things that seem to upset them is a lot of changes to their cages. 

One of my males is very hormonal, though luckily I don't have to deal with any kind of fear issues as well. I've learned that respecting a certain amount of his needs is really important. Don't make a lot of changes in his cage where he can see it happening. He doesn't mind his water and food bowls being cleaned and washed, but almost all other things being removed upsets him greatly. Moojoo, my boy, is not fear ful so he tries very hard to be clear to me when something is upsetting me before he bites. He picks up a small piece of fleece and puts it between my hand and him and sidles it. I take it as I'm very mad, but I don't want to bite you. If I ignore this I will get bit.

So in order to clean his cage proper I remove him from it and place him somewhere he can't see whats happening. In a different cage, with a family member (this seems to keep him the calmest), in the bathroom..you get the picture. I also do NOT place him with his brothers when I do this, for some reason he is more likely to take anger out on them than he is with us humans. I will clean the whole cage itself, but items in the cage I check and only clean the ones in most dire need. I try to limit as much as possible any new items as I can. When I place him back in the cage with his brothers (the brothers all go back in first and I wait for the excitement of newness wears off on them) I give everyone a special treat then so there is something really good to think about instead of the changes that happened. Moojoo also loves apple and pear wood blocks. I keep a big box of small blocks of these for him. If he seems still "stiff" I will hand him a block to keep his mind on something else. What I mean by stiff is even though he's not outright being hostile, no huffing or sidling he still has very tense muscles which happens prior to starting to feel more into the other more serious signs of hostility.

I realize this is a lot of information to give you and not all of it will be relevant in your situation. I am hoping by giving you my info on Moojoo it might help you figure out what your boy may be trying to tell you. He probably has his own likes/dislikes and it will take you some time to learn what they are. Your situation will probably feel a bit more overwhelming since you are also having to decipher what is being caused by just fear. 

Somethings to watch on basic communication- boxing (when the stand up) that is usually a defensive mechanism. Rolling, running, shivering are also defensive and more likely to occur from fear. Of course they can do some of those things in play as well, but most adult rats don't play like that often and its pretty obvious when it's in play.

Huffing, sidling, bristling hair are mostly all offensive behaviors, this rat is more angry/dominant than fearful.

You may consider neutering, I've considering it myself for Moojoo. In my case he is not that difficult to deal with as long as we respect some of his limitations. He loves attention and scritches so we are not dealing with a scared and angry rat that will bite from many things. But I am considering it because I wonder if these very strong emotional rollercoasters he has are hurting him emotionally. I don't think he likes feeling that he must be dominant, but because of his hormones, he is forced into this role.

Good luck with your fur kids.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Mimsy,

I'm the first to respect a rats requests, as long as they are reasonable... But alpha confusion has a tendency to get worse with time and turns into outright alpha aggression...

Studies show that a rats hormones will return to normal and his behavior will become less aggressive when another alpha rat dethrones him... 

As he hasn't gone over the top yet, I'd engage him in some really rough play, wear gloves if you must, but push him a bit... start sending the message that you are the alpha and don't let him push you around... Perhaps you don't need extreme immersion yet, actually I hope you don't... so try the middle path first. Be friendly and offer treats but make sure to send the message that you are in charge and you are the only alpha in the house... 

Once he stops trying to push you around and accepts his place in your family structure, there's no problem with catering to his special wishes... as long as he asks nicely...

I realize that you want to be nice and you want Moojoo to become competent and self confident, but a rat really can't run your household nor can he exercise control by attacking you or your other rats. Right now, he's confused by you backing down.... he's testing your limits, but this confusion can turn into outright aggression very fast when he decides it's time for a coup and to take charge...


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

I completely respect your thoughts and I think each rat is different. However Moojoo looks at us as definitely the alphas, rolls over on his back, loves scritches, ect. He has never liked rough play, even by his brothers. With us if we are rough he will just cry and roll over. His brothers he just doesn't tolerate it from and goes alpha rat on them.

His issues are specific. He can't handle changes to the cage. We don't back down, we remove him from the scenario. If we are going to do something that upsets him, he gets removed from the area. There is no need to wear gloves, he will only bite if you continue to change hammocks and clean litter boxes while ignoring his displeasure. If as soon as he shows it I pick him up and put him on my shoulder all is good. My husband can finish the cage, or he takes Moojoo and I finish up what needed to be done. 

I think being a strong, reassuring force that shows no intimidation or anger is the best bet with him. 

I hear you being confused, but I also realize you haven't met Moojoo, so I think you are going by your own experiences. Out of our 15 rats, 13 are half wilds. This means little over all, wild rats behave mostly the same as domestic rats and visa versa. But some of these little differences do exist. Most well adjusted rats will not injure each other seriously, nor do fights last all that long. There has been quite a few studies that show this. (not counting rats who have had any isolation studies done, those rats don't know how to behave properly) There is no reason for us to brawl with him. We are the bosses and we do not need to do anything other than be confident and understand his confusion to our obvious silly behavior of removing the urine soaked things from the cage. That urine is what says who things belong to, where the good food is and in the winter would build up and break down plant matter to keep them warm. My behavior, as far as he is concerned is completely irrational, and he's trying stop it so they don't all freeze in the winter. Keeping this process as low profile as possible keeps little Moojoo sane and it's not such an inconvenience to any of us that we cant do it.

Otherwise, anyone, even a stranger could poke fingers in the cage and they will only get grabbed and sniffed..maybe some licks. This is a very sweet boy who is just trying to keep his burrow safe. If you open the door everyone, even Moojoo is going to race up your arm and try for some snuggle time. He is not being cage aggressive, or unreasonable at all if you look at it from a rats way of life.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not quite sure if you are saying Moojoo is half wild. We've had a part wild rat too, and yes, if he is half wild that changes things... Our part wild had rules we had to follow too and like Moojoo she was sweet as pie, but could freak out if mishandled or if her universe was unreasonably upset. 

Half wild or part wild rats are very much like our domestic friends, but in certain ways they are also different and do need special handling. There are some things one has to forgive and accommodate for when keeping a special animal that shouldn't be tolerated with a normal domestic rat.

To be honest, I still didn't put up with biting from our wild child, but we were always careful never to provoke her needlessly.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

I actually have him out on my lap now. He squeaks when I go to touch him and will sometimes look at my hands and put his teeth round them. I don't even have to be moving them. I bop him and tell him no when he does. I think he's slowly learning. He does take treats from my hands warily which is good. I only give them to him if he's being good.

I actually got him and his friend castrated last Friday. He's stopped huffing at the bars now but he does like to put his teeth on hands still!

In the cage he pushes his friend around but his friend pushes him back. I'm not sure who the alpha is. He is obviously the more stressed one. His friend is quite chill.


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm not quite sure if you are saying Moojoo is half wild.


Yes Moojoo and his 7 brothers are all 1/2 wild kids.

Sounds like you are making progress Mercury. Give the neuter a little time and I bet he will mellow out a good bit.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm actually still trying to wrap my head around 13 half wild rats in the same house... 

When I started out there were so many misconceptions and such a negative stigma associated with wild and part wild rats, that very few people would even adopt one. We adopted ours without knowing what she was and weren't really prepared for the special little wolf we came to love.

I can't even imagine the amount of love and patience it takes to incorporate 13 half wild rats into your family.


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

Rat Daddy, it's really not much different that having that many domestics.  I've read everything I could find on wilds and half wilds behavior. Yes there is a lot of less than positive opinions on them. But really out of 12 (if I said 13, that was my bad counting lol 8 boys and 4 girls) we only have 2 that are a bit more difficult than their domestic cousins. Moojoo, for the reasons I outlined before and his sister Shelly Bean who is quite timid. The 4 girls live with 3 domestic girls and are very sweet. Shelly Bean protests about time out of the cage, where her 3 sisters all want out for play time. Once she is out she is good, but loud noises or anything surprising will spook her.

The boys are actually almost more needy than any domestics I've had. They are very clingy with us. They except strangers, which I didn't expect them to be so accepting of. The only bite we've ever had was from Moojoo and only under those very specific conditions and if we didn't do something to stop it from escalating fast enough. We've learned that as soon as he starts to get tense we pick him up fast and keep him a little unsettled. Such as carry around on shoulders, bring him to places he's unfamiliar with ect...that sort of thing makes him go back to being clinging and relying on us. Fizzly is just the mischiefs clown. He just wants to play and snuggle and find things to get into. He's very outgoing and loves everyone. Though Fizzly has an enlarged heart, we worry he won't get to be with us as long as his brothers which makes us sad.

My husband says all the time that he is thankful for them, he was so worried about having so many and with our reading possible issues. But it turned out to be some of the most loving animals we've ever known. He calls them his babies and spoils them rotten.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Our part wild had a vicious streak... not mean or aggressive in any way, just vicious. When my neighbor grabbed her to pick her up she shredded his hand. An hour later she was napping snuggled in my lap... When I pulled her out of some towels she was napping in she sprang into the air and turned into a ball of fur, fangs and claws.. she was spinning around so fast you couldn't tell the teeth from the tail... and yes, she got dropped on the floor, but she actually didn't bite me... She only bit me once, I was holding a mouse in my hand and she was on my shoulder, she charged down my arm fur up and in the last split second I turned my hand and I got a nasty ripping bite... and after she hit the far wall and slid down to the floor (my reflex reaction, not intentional) she scurried right back to me to be my friend... no hard feelings I was working feverishly to stop the bleeding and she was nibbling my ear... To be honest, she was one of the most loving rats we ever owned... as long as you didn't flip her switch into vicious mode.

As to strangers, she had to hear their voice first, then she had to sniff them, then she would lower her head and it was perfectly fine for someone to pet her as long as we were holding her... I never took the chance of having strangers hold her... mostly for liability reasons. But she loved my 5 year old daughter and although it made me cringe a bit, my daughter would squish her into doll clothes and play rough with her and I never really felt afraid to leave them alone together. At night I'd find my daughter passed out in the easy chair with her rat napping in her lap... she was one of the sweetest rats we ever had.

I might also add that she was lost outdoors and lived 5 months outside on her own before coming home for winter.

I've read so many horror stories about wild and part wild rats that I just can't reconcile with the one we had.. If they are raised from birth by a loving human family, in certain ways they almost bond better than some domestic rats... but they do have a few kinks... If the neighbor dropped a dish she evaporated into thin air... She was absolutely remarkable at being invisible, and man she could jump, I once saw her put her back against a file cabinet and run straight up a wall... and she could deflate her body and go flat as a pancake and slide under a door like an envelope... And most amazingly when Fuzzy Rat couldn't jump to keep up with her, she came back and taught Fuzzy Rat to climb up an extension cord.... She actually had empathy for a friend and taught her a new trick... Proving to me that rats can not only learn from one another, but that they can intentionally teach one another something. We really did love her and find her fascinating... yes she was a liability risk, but she was worth it in so may other ways.

Wild, half wild and part wild rats may not make the best and safest "pets" but they do become amazing friends and there's no doubt they are worth making special exceptions for their little quirks. 

I realize that every domestic rat owner tells people that domestic rats aren't like wild rats... but in many ways they are more alike than many people are willing to admit.


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## Mojojuju (Nov 15, 2014)

I kind of...force bonded my rescue rats? I kept gloves on at first, but kept handling them for like two hours straight with treats and water handy until they were exhausted. Then I repeated every day for a while. This worked for two scared juvenile rescues (one of whom is also a Loki, btw!) but took a lot of time and did result in some scratches. I kept them on a towel on my lap, or in my hoodie, but always interacted with them constantly. They didn't love it at first, but after a while, they didn't mind...and then eventually they started to like it.

Loki still hates being grabbed out of his cage, but he's happy once he's out, and comes to snuggle and play with me. 

And lick the inside of my ears. Mmmm, earwax.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Darn I think I just replied to just you then Mojo.

Long story short, slow introductions doesn't seem to be working. He keeps biting me despite me giving him nice things, being nice to him when he doesn't bite, and saying no and bopping him when he does.

I think I need to take some real time with him. I'm a little worried that he just won't come round no matter what I do. *sigh*


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It really does not have to boil down to just reward and punishment... Try to understand what he's trying to say and respond accordingly. No mixed messages... if he's trying to bully you, back him down until he understands you are actually not going to permit his biting any more. Then when he plays nice you play nice too. If he's frightened and biting in self defense then only when you corner him... you want to coax him towards you and reward his timid approach...

But behavior modification methods often send mixed messages to rats... Rats aren't stimulus response animals, they actually think and try and understand you. He's testing you and trying to control his situation, try and keep this in mind when you interact with him... He's a very intelligent animal, treat him that way... 

No worries, in the end you are most likely smarter than he is and he'll get the message once it's loud and clear... In the end he wants to be your friend, even if he doesn't know it yet.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Copy Pasting from tumblr:

My rat confussssesss me.
Had him out for an hour. For fifty minutes he was a perfect angel. It was like a personality change or something. He sat in my lap and let me stroke him with no protests. He boggled as I scritched him and spoke to him. I fed him grape and it was the first time I felt he was truly comfortable with me.
Then ten minutes before the end he got up ran around a bit then came towards my hand and bit me really fucking hard out of nowhere. Wth. Worst bite I’ve had so far. It’s non stop bleeding and I swear I heard it hit bone when he did it. It was my finger so it’s not too improbable.
I just have no idea. But hopefully tomorrow if I get him out and he acts the same way I can make him realise I don’t need to be bitten. I’m nice and give him strokes. Maybe it’s a sign his hormones are ebbing now but they’re still present enough to make him aggressive at times.
Here’s hoping.
Weirdly it started when he went towards my bag on the bed. I threw my bag on the floor as I had forgot it was there and he got scared and ran into my lap. Where he stayed.
I don’t want to like scare him on purpose but it seemed to work in that he looked to me for comfort? I’ll see what happens tomorrow with no bag throwing.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd take it that your rat is being nice to you when he thinks you are being submissive to him and when he feels you are doing something he doesn't approve of he bites. Maybe, he wanted to check out your bag and you took it away, he didn't like that and he punished you, if I'm reading your post correctly...

Seriously, when a rats bites you have to make it absolutely clear to him that he's made the worst mistake he can make... Naturally it would be a good idea to wear gloves, but without encouraging animal abuse... or suggesting you cause your rat any permanent harm you show him the wrongness of his ways in every clear way you can.

Best luck.


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## Mercury (Aug 11, 2015)

Ok. So I had him out for a while today and everything went wrong. I had him out alone. I wrapped him in a towel and held him but he just kept squeaking and trying to get out and eventually he did get out and after that he was extremely on edge and wouldn't let me touch him at all. He bit me hard, again. And me picking him up over and over just seemed to make him more and more stressed. Now he's afraid to even be by me. Oh and the gloves I have make him worse also. He's terrified when I have them on so I can't even pick him up and stuff in them.

I think next time he's out for a while I'm going to try just ignoring him and treating him well when he comes towards me willingly and sits in my lap. Forcing him to interact with him just makes him worse and I'm tired of being bitten. > <

I'm sorry this is taking so long and I feel like a pathetic rat mum right now. I'm just trying everything and nothing seems to be working with him. I've tried gloves. I've fed him treats when he goes back when he's been good. I've wrapped him in a towel. I've pushed him over when he bites.

I just...I'm getting at the end of my tether. I want him to be my friend but he doesn't seem to give me a chance, he just automatically whips round defensively when I try and touch him.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I do not advocate "force training". It can really louse up your attempts at a good relationship. I do advocate immersion in which force is not used. I recommend you read a few pages of the immersion thread stickied at the top of this forum. I have been where you are more than once - thinking things would never work out and my new pet would never like me. Each time, I tell myself "I'll keep trying for another week. If things don't get better, then I'll give up and let him just live in his cage." Things do improve. Don't try to force him to be with you. The only force I use is to get him from the cage to the immersion spot. When Petey bit me I bopped his nose and said "NO!". It's about the same way you would correct a puppy and just like a puppy a rat gets the message. When I was doing immersion with Petey, I would reach out to him and pet him. If he ran away, I would wait a few minutes and reach out and pet him again. For a few days that was all we did. Then he did start coming to me and let me pet him more than once before running away. Things got better day by day, even though some days the amount of change was very small.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Mercury, it's important to understand that this isn't your fault.. you adopted a rat that most likely had issues that are going to be hard to work through which were caused by someone else.

My problem is right now, I'm not sure what's going on... or what the plan is... or moreover who's in charge. Did I get he doesn't like your gloves so you took them off and he bit you? Which suggests he likes to bite your bare hands more?

OK... I'm being a little prickly, but I'm an older guy and that's just how we get when we want someone to put their thinking cap on. It's time you started working on a strategy and taking charge... He bites so you wear welding gloves or oven mitts. He may not like it, but you don't want to get bitten... it's really as simple as that. You don't need to force him into submission, but you do have to discourage his biting with a bop or a sway... which is easier to do when you aren't bleeding all over the place. You can certainly be encouraging and reward his nice behaviors, but you still need to engage him so he gets to know you... And all of this will take time... perhaps several long sessions, we're talking about several hours each.

Your rat has you on the defensive and he's taking control of your situation to get his way... which is certainly a communication, but you need to respond to him by taking the lead in the conversation and setting the agenda. From what I'm getting your current plan is to be more passive in response to him being more aggressive. First didn't you already try that? And second how exactly is that supposed to work? He chases you around the house and you and your partner move out?

Take a moment... and think about this. Make a plan step by step and then execute it. Armor up whether he likes it or not and stop getting bitten. Then engage him in a friendly way... if he attacks you respond aggressively until he backs down then keep up trying to reach out to him in a nice way, but don't put up with him trying to push you around. Basically take charge.

I know most people prefer to be kind and friendly with their rats and most rats appreciate this in their humans. But every now and then there comes along a really screwed up rat that needs to be straightened out before the loving can begin. You didn't screw him up, but now you are trying to fix him. This is likely to get uglier before it gets better, but seriously it's doable. You have to stop sending mixed signals and mostly you have to stop letting your rat take the lead or push you around. First you fix the biting and then you socialize him regardless of what his personal agenda might be...

In the end, he thinks he's getting his way, but you and I know if he keeps it up his future will be bleak and short. Biting rats are not pets.

Do read the immersion thread and if you post a more comprehensive plan, maybe we can help you to fine tune it.

Best luck.


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