# Can't Take This Any More!



## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

We’re about ready to throw in the towel. 

We did our research before buying our rats. We’ve spent tons of money buying supplies, including habitat, bedding, best food, chew toys, play toys, platforms, wheels, hideaways, litter, etc. We tried to potty train them (only one of them uses the potty), try to play with them, train them, etc. 

But all our three girlies do is poop all over everything (including us), pee everywhere, and destroy anything we put into their cage. We do spot cleans twice a day and a thorough cage clean every week. But their home is always a disgusting, smelly disaster. 

It’s a lot of work, but with three of us (me and my two daughters) doing it, it wouldn’t be terrible. Except we get almost nothing back from the rats, so my daughters are losing all motivation for even having them. 

Our rats love climbing into our sleeves and running all over our backs, chests, and necks. But they are never still, so we never get any kind of snuggle action from them, or any kind of what we can interpret as affection or warmth. They won’t sit on our laps or on our shoulders without running madly everywhere and peeing and pooping on us and in our clothes. 

We are doing our weekly cage clean, and I’m going to have to replace their cage floor mats again. I had to throw away their lava ledge because it had their poo smeared all over it. Argh. 

I am at the end of my rope and I can tell that the girls (who are hard-working and conscientious) are feeling very frustrated. We have a dog (who is one of the most awesome dogs ever), so we know what it is to take care of a pet. 

I don’t necessarily want to teach the girls that they can just dispose of a pet when it displeases them, but the idea of having to endure years more of this is insane. Does anyone have any tips? Help!


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

How big is their cage and what bedding do you use? Girl rats are very playful and you need to learn to play with them and not make them sit still. When they poop or pee on something but the cage do you put them back in the cage? Try having a litter box in the cage to throw the poop in. That way it still smells like them but they won't be stepping in it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

How long have you had them? My rats only pooped outside their cage for a few days and that was fear poops, unless of course I let them out of their cage for more than 50 mins at a time without a bathroom break...Is your dog around when you get your rats out of their cage? The presence of the dog or even smelling him might get them scared hence the pooping. Girls, especially young rat girls are very hyper.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

We have them in a two-level cage that's about 28" x 27.5" x 16" (71cm x 70cm x 41cm). 
We began by using fleece as bedding, but they shredded it so quickly that we switched to the Ikea mats that I saw discussed on this board. Those hold up better, but they still destroy those in a matter of weeks. Plus, they pull the mats up and pee and poop under them. 
We've had a litter box in their cage since day one and one of the three actually uses it. We spent weeks picking up errant poops and placing them into the litter box until it seemed that any rat who was going to figure out got it. 
It's maddening.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

We've had them since mid-December of 2015, so about four months. They seem healthy - they've grown a lot and seem robust without being fat. 
The dog isn't always around them, but I'm sure her smell is all over the house.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would switch to litter only if your cage can hold it. Intact female rats pee mark, they do it more when in heat every 3-4 days. How much time out of their cage do they get? And where?


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## MousE190 (Oct 7, 2014)

Don't give up,,they are young and full of energy, my three boys (20 mon. 10 mon. 9 mon.) the older one has mellowed, the 2 others, they still tear around, but they are learning to chill. Yes, it could be nervous pee and poohs,, it could be marking their territory.. My boys use the litter box,,, they still may pee on the floor, but generally they are well behaved. 
Just takes time,,,it is not a lost cause. I cover the cage floor with cardboard,,,score the top, soaks up pee. and is cheap.. and gives them a huge chew toy. Hope things improve.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

Gribouilli said:


> I would switch to litter only if your cage can hold it. Intact female rats pee mark, they do it more when in heat every 3-4 days. How much time out of their cage do they get? And where?


So fill the tray at the bottom of the cage with about an inch of litter? My concern with that is that it will be so difficult to spot-clean the poops out if they're amongst all that litter, and the smell will become worse... 
When they're out of their cage, it's mainly just to climb on us, since we can't let them run around peeing and pooping all over the floor...


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Cloudsedge said:


> Gribouilli said:
> 
> 
> > I would switch to litter only if your cage can hold it. Intact female rats pee mark, they do it more when in heat every 3-4 days. How much time out of their cage do they get? And where?
> ...


The litter will help neutralize the smell. And they're young. They don't seem to mellow until at least a year, but a boy rat has a tendency to be more cuddly.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Rats like to chew. I agree switching to litter will help odor wise.


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## CourteesRatties (Feb 23, 2016)

Now im not here to judge or be rude but to me it seems your cage is at its max number of rat to space ratio and they will want to explore so the reason they wont sit still when out is probably cause their bored and want to explore. My rats were this way when i had them in a single level but when i gave them a whole critter nation for just the 2 they calmed down a lot more when they were out.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

First off in terms of the toilet training, this is actually more about cage set up than training. I have never trained my current rats yet they use there litter trays religiously, because I've got the set up right. The first thing to do is remove any shelves, fixed surfaces or similar. Then look at the soze of your cage, at minimum you want 1 litter tray near the fave sleeping place (and by near ideally its literally a role out of there hammock and into the tray) and one on the floor (or even better use a decent substrate rather than the mats). In a tall cage you may need an additional 1 or 2 part the way up. I find cat litter trays are particularly good for replacing shelve, you add holes in each corner and hang using wire or keyring clips, then add a good litter (e.g. yesterdays news). Feel free to post a photo of your cage for additional help.

Next in terms of cleaning, your using one of the more difficult things to keep clean and actually an option I'm not a big fan of. Rats love to dig and generally are better on a good quality substrate over mats or fleece as it absorbs a lot better and is just generally better for enrichment. If you have a good substrate (I'd use aspen if I lived in the US) and a decent sized cage for the number of rats, plus get rid of the shelves and replace with trays, you are likely to not need to clean out more than once a fortnight. At the moment your cage floor space may be a bit small so will need cleaning out more often (unless the floor space is 70 x 71 rather than 71x41).

In terms of lava ledge + poo, it happens, try soaking it in warm water for a few minutes then giving it a quick scrub with a brush and leaving outside to dry out for a few hours. It cleans them right up. It may improve with the litter training situation, however even the best trained rats do occasionally get a poo stuck on there foot and manage to walk it everywhere.

In terms of toilet training whilst on you, this does take time, your girls are only 3 months old so still babies, babies have very little control over where the poo and pee. They are likely to improve over the next few months, however they will have the odd accident and some girls always mark. I would recommend getting a fleece throw to put over whatever sofa or surface they play on, and a rat jumper to stick over clothes for now. With my girls when we have sofa time rather than full free range I wait for them to choose a corner to poo in and then gather it up in a tissue and lay it down, they quickly use that tissue for most toileting (though they occasionally also eat it or try and move it around lol!) and I just pick up any stray bits and bobs and throw the lot in the bin.

I think its very important to realise though that your girls are not misbehaving, they aren't being rubbish rats, they sound like well adjusted and friendly young girls. Rats (much like dogs) have very specific needs behaviours, they aren't the right pet for everyone. I'm not saying this to be mean, but everyone needs to think about if they are suitable for rats. If you want a pet who will spend a lot of time cuddling, be very easy for kids to handle and look cute all the time then guinea pigs are much better than rats. If you want a pet who will probably run rampage over your house, be regularly up to no good and generally make your life that much more interesting (and frustrating) then rats (especially girls) are very much for you. 

For me half of rats appeal is there ability to be cheeky, mischievous, active creatures. I looked after my brothers guinea pigs for a month once and realised they were very much not my kind of pets, every time I tried to make them something new they couldn't figure it out, they didn't have half a rats intelligence and tended to just sit there and squeak cutely when I had them out, they even had a cage without a roof and never once got out! 

Theres nothing wrong with being the wrong person for a specific animal, however I don't think its fair to expect the rats to go against there nature to adjust to what you want from a pet. That's not to say they wont calm a little as they age, but they may not ever be traditionally cuddly, or they might decide tomorrow that they want a cuddle more than anything. Why not encourage your daughters to train the rats to do agility, build them obstacle courses, have little mini recall competitions or races, chase feather wands or train them to retrieve objects. Make the most of your girls intelligence, energy and enthusiasm, wear them out with activities then see if they want a cuddle or rest on you. You might find that you completely fall for ratty charms


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

If someone told you female rats would be happy to sit and snuggle with you, you were given some serious misinformation.

Young rats, females especially, are very active and inquisitive. The world is far too interesting for them to just sit down and be cuddled. They are either on or off - they play hard and sleep hard. It is go go go until aging starts to catch up with them, but as they only live a few years, the slowdown is brief. Like Isamu wrote, you're pretty much expecting a square peg to fit into a round hole.

It's okay if these aren't the pets for you. I would suggest a cat or a dog for a more human-focused eager to please pet. They are bred for that. Rats aren't. Just make sure you do more research next time, for your future pets' sake. The best thing to do is go to forums like this where we can actually give you the nitty gritty of what life with a certain pet is like.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First, begin by socializing your rats more, my immersion thread might help. It really isn't just for screwed up rats. Once you establish better communication it will be easier to explain correct bathroom manners to them. Rats have to learn that you are communicating and how to understand you, before you can start to teach them.

Next consider that you have girls, who mostly communicate with their feet.... This link is my daughter and another girl we met at the park playing with Misty...

https://vid.me/SgmU

You will note all of the energy Misty is burning just running around. She was about six months old when we filmed this video....

Now Misty is about a year old and for the first time since she was a pup she laid down next to me on my chair and just chilled for about 20 minutes while I was listening to classical Kieth Emerson music (RIP Kieth... the world has lost a great talent and a gentleman) Maybe she noticed I was feeling sad or maybe I tired her out playing tug of war for almost an hour, in which she beat me out of half a roll of toilet paper... or maybe prog rock makes her want to chill.... But it was almost funny when I told my daughter that Misty had snuggled with me... She immediately panicked and deduced that Cloud must be dead... Cloud has been breathing hard for a few months now and she's been in horrible shape... (she's two and she looks exactly like something the cat dragged in...) but I still let her slink off to hide in her secret nest, which she recently moved to someplace unreachable.... and I hadn't seen her for about a day.... But thankfully Cloud came out when called... still more or less alive... and creaking along under her own power... 

In any event... Misty is a year old, she's a true shoulder rat, she's bright and loving, she loves to play fight and run all over us, but when she actually snuggled with me, we went on a recovery mission for Cloud's body. That's how out of character it is for Misty to snuggle.... 

So, I'll even add that I pulled Cloud out of her cage later last night.... sadly and reluctantly, I'm starting to keep her in her cage more, where she has water and food.... I don't think she should go days at a time without water in her condition... (Misty has food stashed all around the house, so that's not a problem) and Cloud breaths hard and her head bobs up and down when she breaths and sometimes she leaks read stuff from her eyes and nose and sometimes she pees and poops on herself now and her eyes have a dull reddish hue, mostly she's a pretty limp sack of bones wrapped in loose fur... but after about twenty minutes she mustered up enough energy to try and drag herself off me and jump down to the floor... Cloud is just barely alive.... but she still doesn't like to snuggle much... And by the way... Cloud was.... errm... is... a magnificent true shoulder rat, one of the finest I've ever trained... 

Here's a picture of her asking to be picked up last summer after she had spent an hour exploring the marsh on her own...









Yup, she looks snugly and has always been affectionate, but in reality she is a girl and her feet still work and she's still got better things to do than just lounge around on us.... 

Most girl rats love to run and play and explore, that doesn't mean they don't love you! It's just that... Girls just want to have fun!

Please note... naturally our rats are immersed rats with a very strong family/pack bond with us and they are safe site trained and tested... And we have been training shoulder rats for a long time. For the most part most people shouldn't take their rats outdoors, it's a great way to get rats killed or lost. You might want to work on more energetic indoor games with your girls.

I think if you do immersion the best part of rat companionship is still ahead of you.

Best luck.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

Wow - you folks are awesome!
Thanks so much for such *thorough* information - that's exactly what my family needed. 
I will work on implementing all of the suggestions I've received here.
I'll work on getting some of the supplies we'll need and I'll try to post a picture of our cage this weekend. 
Thanks again.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

*Our Cage - Before*

Thanks again to all of you who took the time to share with me your thoughts on what might be wrong as well as your ideas for how to fix things. As I mentioned, I took it to heart. 
I began this week by focusing on our cage. I'm posting a picture of the cage BEFORE making any changes. The only thing not in the photo are the pieces of fleece which we give them to make them cozier and the lava ledge.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

*Our Cage - After*

Regarding the cage, I spent most of the morning making some changes to make their (and our) environment better.
I bought a cheap cat litter tray and sawed off a chunk of the front then put some mounts on it to allow me to fasten it to the cage in a manner which would allow for weekly cleanings. 
I took out the Ikea mats and put in some CareFresh bedding instead. I also put in another level so that they have four levels on which to climb and run. 
I put some treats for them amongst the bedding on the floor and they found them quickly and easily. 









Regarding behavior, my daughters and I are going to focus on giving the girlies more floor time to run and play. We're also going to read the immersion thread to see what else we can do to make them (and us) happier. 

Thanks again for your patient and thorough correction. I've been on some boards where people can be extremely rude, and I appreciate the manner in which I was treated here.


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## RattusMaximus (Apr 6, 2015)

Well, that's good! It's very good that you're not giving up on them. Rats are awesome-once they learn to behave. They kind of are like little dogs-as they are very smart.

Just to clarify, what type is the CareFresh? Not pine or dusty shavings, correct?


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

RattusMaximus said:


> Well, that's good! It's very good that you're not giving up on them. Rats are awesome-once they learn to behave. They kind of are like little dogs-as they are very smart.
> 
> Just to clarify, what type is the CareFresh? Not pine or dusty shavings, correct?


It's the paper kind - trying to avoid pine and dust because of rats' tendency toward respiratory issues.


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## RattusMaximus (Apr 6, 2015)

Okay, that's good.

Another piece of advice: If the smell is very bad, you can buy a mini-air filter for next to the cage. It also helps with some respiratory issues (not infections, but general sneezing etc caused by things like dust).


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would add a 12 inches wheel to their cage- this way they will be more docile if they can burn some of that crazy female rat energy Great job on not giving up on them, and keep asking as many questions as you need. We are all happy to help you


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Neither rats, dogs or humans make for good companions unless they are properly socialized. And this takes time... for humans around 21 years... and it takes patience and some degree of determination.

Cloud passed away this week, so I'm currently working on socializing our new Easter rat, Bunny... Naturally everything is still going sideways and this rat is going to take a whole lot of work... But we've spent the past few days snuggling together... mostly she's just afraid of everything around her and hanging on to me under the blankets for protection, but it's a start.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

We tried a 12-inch wheel in the cage for the past couple of weeks. One of the girls would use it at night. I ended up taking it out, seeing it as a trade-off: either keep the wheel in there, with it getting so little use, or take it out and make use of the space to add some more levels that they can all benefit from by being able to climb around in a more stimulating living space.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear about Cloud, RD! Good luck with Bunny, and my condolences to both you and your daughter.

Good luck to you, as well, Cloudsedge!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks Nintendoremi


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Rat Daddy said:


> Neither rats, dogs or humans make for good companions unless they are properly socialized. And this takes time... for humans around 21 years... and it takes patience and some degree of determination.
> 
> Cloud passed away this week, so I'm currently working on socializing our new Easter rat, Bunny... Naturally everything is still going sideways and this rat is going to take a whole lot of work... But we've spent the past few days snuggling together... mostly she's just afraid of everything around her and hanging on to me under the blankets for protection, but it's a start.


Oh darlin. That's awful.

But if anyone can get Bunny hopping, it'll be you.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Neither rats, dogs or humans make for good companions unless they are properly socialized. And this takes time... for humans around 21 years... and it takes patience and some degree of determination.Cloud passed away this week, so I'm currently working on socializing our new Easter rat, Bunny... Naturally everything is still going sideways and this rat is going to take a whole lot of work... But we've spent the past few days snuggling together... mostly she's just afraid of everything around her and hanging on to me under the blankets for protection, but it's a start.


I'm so sorry about Cloud Wishing you good luck with Bunny.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Losing Cloud hasn't been easy on any of us... she was just one of the best rats ever... Gentle, friendly and easy going... well, rats are stubborn animals so all things in perspective. 

I managed to lose Bunny last night, she fell off my desk and didn't come back... She doesn't know her name yet as we only decided on it. She's just so terrified of everything that although she did come to me, she took off when I moved... 

.... so naturally I sent Misty after her today... And low and behold Misty chased Bunny back to me... well, a little worse for wear... Misty's friend Cloud is gone, and I cleaned out their secret nest today and Misty is in a really bad mood and a new rat invading her space didn't make things any better... Right after Cloud passed Misty really became affectionate, but she's kind of mad at me now that I brought Bunny into the house.

I was kind of hoping for a nice friendly intro like when Misty met Cloud... but it looks like this one is going to be more difficult... In any event Bunny is so terrified and squeaky, Misty actually got bored of cornering Bunny and walked away after driving her back to me... Now that's a first... ever. I've never had a rat walk away from an intro before... 

But on the up side Bunny hasn't left our side since.... She's decided that humans are really good... everything else is bad... so that's a start... 

Now on to teaching her her name, and figuring out what it's going to take to get this rat out of her shell... I've got to get her over her fears and to stop panicking... It took six weeks with Misty, but she never really panicked, like Bunny did... New rat, new problems.

And by the way... sending one rat to hunt down another isn't normally a good idea... I tend to get away with a lot of things I likely shouldn't do. Some experience, some luck... and very good rats to work with.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

Update: the switch from Ikea Borris mats to CareFresh bedding has been one of the best things to happen to us since we got our girlies. The smell is much reduced and the feces is not being tracked all over the cage. Also, our weekly cage cleaning time has been pretty much cut in half in addition to just plain being much more pleasant. We just dump out the bedding and wipe down the metal tray. So much easier.

We also think that the girlies are enjoying the new cage configuration much more, as it provides more varied terrain and more opportunities for climbing.
We’re also working on providing more free roaming time for the ratties.

Thanks again to everyone for their patient and thorough input.


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## Cloudsedge (Dec 16, 2015)

Another note: we've been making a point of putting the family dog into her crate whenever we have the rats out, and that seems to have cut down on their out-of-cage pooping. This is a vast improvement. 

And, as I mentioned in another thread, one of our girlies (Bubbles) has a health issue going on, so I've been having to give her oral meds via syringe twice a day. What's interesting is that, since I try to comfort her after this traumatic procedure, she and I seem to be forming kind of a better relationship. At least I feel closer to her. 
And lately she has been spending some time just sitting quietly on my shoulder or on my lap. 

As I sat with her on my lap last night, I told her that I couldn't tell if she was sitting still on me because she was happy or because she was frightened and that I hoped she wasn't frightened. I gently put my hand around her body and didn't feel her heart racing, so it seems that she wasn't terrified.
I'm guessing that she is either enjoying sitting with me or that her balance issues are making her less adventurous. But she does still climb around inside the cage.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm happy to hear that you are making progress. I remembered your post but didn't remember about the IKEA Norris mats. Yuck, thanks for telling us how bad they are😁


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

Sounds like you've made some great improvements! I use bedding myself (shredded aspen and stall pellets underneath) and it works very much better than fleece / ikea mats... It helps the odor greatly and is easy to dump and replace. 

You might want to try adding some climbing ropes to their cage too.. I use the large bird perches that are rope and screw onto the cage. My rats love to climb them. Fleece hammocks are great too. For chewing, save your old cardboard boxes (cereal, food, tissue, etc.) and toilet paper tubes. Give them those to chew on.. Mine make houses out of the boxes chewing extra holes, etc. When they are too soiled, I toss them and replace. I also give mine paper (paper towel, newsprint, etc.) to shred and make nests out of. Adding chew toys made of wood or pumice (like the lava ledge) is good for chewing too. Another good "activity" is to use a suet feeder with small grid holes (or a small animal veggie holder toy) and put vegg in it for them to work out how to get to it. 

When I do free roam time, my rats are usually let loose in a rat-proofed bathroom.. I have ever used a large walk-in shower for this too. 

Just realize that no rats are 100% potty trained... they will still mark / poo, and that the more things you give them to destroy, the better... They will still eat holes in their hammocks, etc. but if they have more appropriate things to chew, they will spend more time chewing on those and less chewing the things you don't want them to chew. 

I also agree with the others that females are the most active of the two genders.. My females don't slow down until well after 1.5 years of age.. My males a pretty slow at about 6 months... That doesn't necessarily mean they are more cuddly than the females though. 

Good luck with your rats!


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## anatomae (Mar 9, 2016)

Cloudsedge, I've been following this thread since you first posted it, and I just wanted to say I'm so happy for you, your daughters and your ratties that you're figuring out new systems. I'm sure everyone will be much happier in the long run! 

Our boys are young, and slow down eventually if we have them out for a while, but I find it's a lot of fun for them and us to take advantage of their energy by giving them games to play! It can be as simple as tossing a blanket over them and letting them find their way out, or even chasing my hand (Theo especially loves it).

Rats are such amazing wee creatures and I've loved every second of having them, even though it hasn't been long. I hope your family and new ratties have a wonderful time, and please keep us updated on any progress! It's lovely to hear.


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