# Please help.... Tumor (??) and scab!



## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Hello guys,

My girl Scarlett has some type of lump... It's really soft and feels pretty much like skin and fat... If not for the fact that it hangs down, I would never have felt it, since it's not hard at all. It's right by her uppermost nipple, and you can't really see it unless she's walking around, In which case it hangs down.... She's my oldest and my fattest girl. Since she's pretty fat, I didn't notice it until today.... I'm really distraught ...

Could this be a fatty tumor? 

Also she had a scab on her back right below her shoulders on her back... None of my other three have any, so I'm not sure if it could still be mites? 
It's crusty looking because its healing / scabbed, but no infection.
View attachment 123122


Scarlett is my first rat.... Approx. two years old. I love her dearly..... If anyone as input, please help....


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The scab looks like a simple bite and should be fine.

In terms of the tumour a photo woild help but that location is common for a mammary lump, is it rounded and soft baloon like or more flat and very squishy? Both are useually not cancerous and straight forward to remove via op. Putting her on a diet will slow growth rate and help prevent more coming, fat rats are more prone to lumps.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Isamurat said:


> The scab looks like a simple bite and should be fine.
> 
> In terms of the tumour a photo woild help but that location is common for a mammary lump, is it rounded and soft baloon like or more flat and very squishy? Both are useually not cancerous and straight forward to remove via op. Putting her on a diet will slow growth rate and help prevent more coming, fat rats are more prone to lumps.


Its flat and very squishy. I have four girls... What should I do to feed them...? I've got two growing rats, one adult, one senior... The growing ratties get extra protein.
I usually just fill up their bowl, and that's it... I need a way to feed her so that she only rats what she needs..

Thank you!!!


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Sounds like a fatty lump, probably the least scary tumour. I would put her on a diet and monitor its growth rate until shes slimmer the get it removed when shes a better weight if its growing slowly. If it grows fast id risk surgery now.

In terms of feeding I woild cut downon what the group get. Work out how much of the bowl theh are eatin a day and then take about 20% off that amount and rather than putting it in the bowl scatter it arojnd the floor. This will mean theres less food overall and with having to hunt for it she wont hog tne food bowl and eat more than her share. Also what type of food do you feed, including treats and human food, sometimes it can be the wrong kind of foods or too much of one thing. The next step is to look at yoir cage set up, an easy set up with lots of ramps leads to lazy unfit rats, make a layout challenging and not only are they generally slimmer from burning off the calories, they are also fitter and more muscular, its a win win. If your not sure what to do post a pic of yoir cage and I can give you some tips. You do need to make it harder gradually so they adapt to it well but it is a great way to do it.

What are your otjer girls like weight wise?


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

The other girls range from slim to normal. I never feed them sugary treats, I do feed them some of what I eat... I'm a healthy eating vegetarian, so it's fruits and veggies for them .... Or brown rice... Lentils are sparing.. Barley, pasta (whole wheat)...they love sugar free Cheerios  


I'm worried the others will become under weight.. Especially Snow... She was found as a stray (she's albino  ) and so she was out there fending for herself for a while, and is a picky girl....


The thing is this... Scarlet is very clumsy. I got her from the humane society, and she was around one year old. That was a year and 4 months ago. She's not agile at all compared to my other girls, and she has a very large, wide, awkward frame. She's huge for a female (length And width, even without the extra fat ). That's why I kept the ramps in... BUT... I can remove them.

Ill take a picture of their cage set up, or a video  


Thank you for your help! 


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Youd be surprised, often cutting food amounts doesnt impact the slimmer ones, but if your worried I would still only have in the cage what they eat less as much as you can bring yourself to take away, so not adlib feeding, but when you put the food in takw her oit for an hour of extra attention. Use this time as a ratty fit camp, try to train her to climb up the stairs, using a smal, food bribe, maybe a rice puff if she makes it to the top. Try and get her to follow your hand and chase it. Another method is if youve got a rat safe room with the cage in it take her out and provide an obsticle course for her to get back to the cagd, and let her hear you feed tne others. Then let her try and get back, as she gets used to it you can increase the number of times she has to do to get back. The obstcile course coild be as simple as climbing up the cage bars, or as fun as running up a cat scratching post and jumping across a gap then climbing the cage and so on. I used to do this with my boy Thom, by the end he was nkt only a lot slimmer but very fit too. Shall have a look for the video

I think its this one, its not running on my tablet though so it may be a random other rat video lol.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I've been giving her extra exercise time so far ... This is a pic from The cage when I first got it...

I always have a hammock at the top (didn't for this shot because I was setting it up ) and I moved their igloo to the bottom without the ladder to the bottom (they use the igloo as a step) 

View attachment 123626

View attachment 123634


There's scarlet... 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I was hoping it was my imagination , bit it's definitely gotten bigger and firmer in the past two days. It was flat before and squishy, and now it feels firm like a balloon ..... It's underneath her arm to e exact. What's going on ?!? I really do not deal with loss well.......... I want to be strong for her but i can't help but cry ...

I knew she was getting older.... Her origins are unknown, seeing as she was given to a shelter ... So I knew a tumor was a possibility. But do they grow this fast?!?!


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

This is obvious but have you tried acting like it's an abscess?


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

nanashi7 said:


> This is obvious but have you tried acting like it's an abscess?


I don't think it's an abscess ... It's "deeper" than her skin, under her armpit, and it s not that hard.. BUT I'm gunna look into it more since you suggested.  Ill be happy if its not a tumor!! 

The reason i didn't think its one is that it has no "head" or kind of round defined area, and its not superficial... What should I look for? I'm going to read more about cysts and see... I pray it's not a tumor, but I have a feeling it is.... 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm on my phone, but if you can look up male lump on face or stalk my old threads my boy had an abscess. It didn't have a head at first and appeared under the skin. Flat and flabby then swelled into a round firm mass. I treated and it grew. Panicking, took him to the vet got it lanced and drained and was told it was an abscess.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I looked at some of the pictures you have in your post about Milo's face... Is that the one? Her lump is much deeper and is not red or inflamed... 

Its hard to explain, but her lump is deep. i can move and pinch the loose skin and move it quite a bit... Is it possible that it could be a cyst......?  


If it is a tumor, I have been thinking about it a lot, and I think i will not put her though the pain of surgery and possible infection... She's over two years old... She may not make it through the surgery, and I don't know how her digestive system would handle the post-op antibiotics since she's sensitive to certain things... 

I don't really know what to do... But I think that's what I've decided. If anyone has any inputs about how I should proceed, please let me know....


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't know much of cysts. 

However, I believe your decision not to operate is correct. I've been mulling it over as my Ratties come close to age and especially in Iris' case who will be three soon. She is overweight despite exercise and portion control, though considerably less so than when I got her from the humane society (vet said she is still healthy but not ideal weight). She is an extremely nervous rat (hates people touching her, strangers, etc) and gets URIs easily (probably cause she's so high strung)). She is not a good candidate for surgery. 
I think she'd rather spend her life cuddling her friends and stealing treats from them than to leave early due to a failed op. It's also worth considering that limited mobility may not be the end of the world for her. She loves nest making, cuddling the girls, and food. All of that can be enjoyed even if she can't run or climb anymore. With dogs, you are told to pick their three favorite things and pts when they can't enjoy two of three. 

I ramble because perhaps Scarlett is the same. Sorry. It's a hard decision an one you'll always mull over but I agree with what I know so far.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

nanashi7 said:


> I don't know much of cysts.
> 
> However, I believe your decision not to operate is correct. I've been mulling it over as my Ratties come close to age and especially in Iris' case who will be three soon. She is overweight despite exercise and portion control, though considerably less so than when I got her from the humane society (vet said she is still healthy but not ideal weight). She is an extremely nervous rat (hates people touching her, strangers, etc) and gets URIs easily (probably cause she's so high strung)). She is not a good candidate for surgery.
> I think she'd rather spend her life cuddling her friends and stealing treats from them than to leave early due to a failed op. It's also worth considering that limited mobility may not be the end of the world for her. She loves nest making, cuddling the girls, and food. All of that can be enjoyed even if she can't run or climb anymore. With dogs, you are told to pick their three favorite things and pts when they can't enjoy two of three.
> ...


You've made me feel better  yes, Scarlett favorite things are food, stealing treats, shredding papers and card board and making nests, and chewing on wood/iPhones/ anything she's not supposed to, and snuggling in hammocks... 

My baby is from the humane society as well!!


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

It doesn’t sound like a cyst, they are very hard, often slightly lumpy and grow very slowly.

It could still be an abscess as rats can get glandular abscesses which have no external injury/scab to start them off, there are some glands in the armpit area, but usually rats get glandular abscesses on there throats or groin area (groin is a male thing though). It is most likely to be a mammary lump I’d guess. If she is relatively fit and healthy at 2 she does have a high chance of pulling through an operation, I know a lot of over 2 year old rats that make it. However its still a fairly hard decision on any older rat and I think not operating is also fine too, you know her best on this, I’ve left girls until they were ready in the past who weren’t up to surgery. If you put her on a diet and look into the antilump mix (google it for info) then it could help a lot. There’s also tamoxifen (anticancer drug) or galastop (surpresses hormones which often drive mammary lumps) which could help slow or even reverse some of the growth.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Isamurat said:


> It doesn’t sound like a cyst, they are very hard, often slightly lumpy and grow very slowly.
> 
> It could still be an abscess as rats can get glandular abscesses which have no external injury/scab to start them off, there are some glands in the armpit area, but usually rats get glandular abscesses on there throats or groin area (groin is a male thing though). It is most likely to be a mammary lump I’d guess. If she is relatively fit and healthy at 2 she does have a high chance of pulling through an operation, I know a lot of over 2 year old rats that make it. However its still a fairly hard decision on any older rat and I think not operating is also fine too, you know her best on this, I’ve left girls until they were ready in the past who weren’t up to surgery. If you put her on a diet and look into the antilump mix (google it for info) then it could help a lot. There’s also tamoxifen (anticancer drug) or galastop (surpresses hormones which often drive mammary lumps) which could help slow or even reverse some of the growth.


Thanks so much! I'll have to research some good vets in my area and see who I trust with my baby girl.... I really just want a diagnosis... I don't want it to be an abscess, and her get sick because it wasn't treated.. i also don't want any cruddy vets to pick her up by the tail or neck scruff, and other awful stories I've heard. 




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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

So, scarlet's lump hasn't gotten any bigger... She always had kind of a rounder rump, but I figured that's just because she was fatter.... Upon feeling her body daily just to make sure the lump isn't growing, etc, I've realized that this is likely another lump that I didn't know was a lump... It feels like a balloon, like the other one, and is in an area common for mammary tumors... I want to be strong for my girls... (Snow -chan always looks very concerned if I cry, and kind of freaks out a bit) but its hard not to be sad these situations... I don't know what to do. I'm at a loss... I love her so much and I don't want to lose her...  she's my first rattie baby.....


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Well... The lumps under her arm pit and by her anus has only gotten slightly larger, but two others have appeared... Right in front of her back legs, on her stomach area.... She still has tons and tons of energy... And is playing and climbing just fine still... I am shocked at this situation. If it's not cancer, could it be some insane gland infection ? Dear god... I'm going to have to take her to a vet . I think I have the funds together so.... Now I just have to find a way to get there.... 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Gannyaan said:


> Well... The lumps under her arm pit and by her anus has only gotten slightly larger, but two others have appeared... Right in front of her back legs, on her stomach area.... She still has tons and tons of energy... And is playing and climbing just fine still... I am shocked at this situation. If it's not cancer, could it be some insane gland infection ? Dear god... I'm going to have to take her to a vet . I think I have the funds together so.... Now I just have to find a way to get there....
> If anyone in the Detroit can offer suggestions ... The busses are not safe at all here, and I cannot ride my bike off campus too far, again due to safety... I'm coming from midtown Detroit and have no car. Any suggestion would be appreciated ..... Please
> 
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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

It could be glandular, i have heard rare cases of rats getting something like this, however it is rare. The only way to tell this is to get the vet to do a fine needle aspiration. I wouldnt recommend trying this at home as you need a very sharp needle and need to be really careful about not going too deep, plus you can introduce an infection if not properly sterilised. If its gunk (you can tell infected stuff easily, its often greeny or white thin fluid) then the best bet is to have it sent off and cultured if you can afford it, its not too pricey over here, about 2 consults cost. This will let you target an antibioitic that will attack what would e a systemic infection so needs some heavy antibiotics. 

If its not, and to be honest with here appearing well and fine i dont think it is, then it will be lumps. This doesnt neccesarily mean she has cancer, rats who are very prone to mammary lumps can and do get them popping up at an astonishing rate, espeically if they are overweight or fed on a high protien, fat or junk food diet (or one full of protien that has been reared on growth hormones). I had one girl with about 6 mamary type lumps at one time, only 2 grew to any size, i chose to have her pts when the largest ulcerated but she had several months of happines left. Here's a few photos of the lumpy lady so you can see some of her very typical mammary lumps



1 month later


and her big tumour once it ulcerated, annoyingly i seem to have lost the growth photos of that one. I tried to get it to close with a tubagrip bandage, but in hindsight i would now have had her put to sleep at this stage, i tried to get it to close for a few days and whilst it wasnt hurting her it wasnt going to get any better at that point. She remained fit and able up to the end though i ahd to adapt the cage a little when it was that big as she could trip over it.


In addition to those 2 she had another groin lump that was small and another 2 small armpit lumps and one further down her side near a nipple



In my experience you know when a rat has cancer as it affects them and their health, often only in minor niggly ways, they are a bit out of condition, jsut a bit slower than before, they might not eat as much or are gradually loosing weight, after a while they start struggling a bit more, then appear in pain. It only goes down hill from there and i would put to sleep as soon as your sure its not something else or the rat appears in pain.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Isamurat said:


> It could be glandular, i have heard rare cases of rats getting something like this, however it is rare. The only way to tell this is to get the vet to do a fine needle aspiration. I wouldnt recommend trying this at home as you need a very sharp needle and need to be really careful about not going too deep, plus you can introduce an infection if not properly sterilised. If its gunk (you can tell infected stuff easily, its often greeny or white thin fluid) then the best bet is to have it sent off and cultured if you can afford it, its not too pricey over here, about 2 consults cost. This will let you target an antibioitic that will attack what would e a systemic infection so needs some heavy antibiotics.
> 
> If its not, and to be honest with here appearing well and fine i dont think it is, then it will be lumps. This doesnt neccesarily mean she has cancer, rats who are very prone to mammary lumps can and do get them popping up at an astonishing rate, espeically if they are overweight or fed on a high protien, fat or junk food diet (or one full of protien that has been reared on growth hormones). I had one girl with about 6 mamary type lumps at one time, only 2 grew to any size, i chose to have her pts when the largest ulcerated but she had several months of happines left. Here's a few photos of the lumpy lady so you can see some of her very typical mammary lumps
> 
> ...


The only reason I thought it could be something else, is that they seem to grow really quickly !! Like within a span of a few days , they get bigger. I never feed her junk food- veggies, grains, occasional fruit or sugar free cheerios, and oxbow !  I have been giving her small amounts of walnuts lately because they are supposed to be good for mammary tumors .... I'm going to pick her up blueberries too.

She is going to go to the vet this week, hopefully Wednesday... I got a friend to give me a ride, which is amazing and I am so so happy.... 

My scarlet...  she's my darling senior rat. I'm thinkin about making her a vest for the occasion... It's about time she had a little jacket. 


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

If it helps, my old female is also a little lumpy. She's also extremely fat. In her case I believe the reason she is so big is because she has fatty tumors in her belly area. 

She doesn't climb much any more. But she is very happy, likes to snuggle, likes to eat (of course!), and takes good care of her "babies" (her two companions). She shreds paper and such too. So even with limited mobility they can still be content and have good lives.

In my case with Marlena I have chosen to opt against trying to do any kind of surgery. There are no defined lumps that would be removable. She's just a big blob. So for her it is a matter of comfort and right now she is very comfortable, and that's what matters.

Good luck at the vet.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

So... I've come back from the vet. He quoted me a fine needle aspiration of $160, and biopsy $200. 

I am shocked, and am going to call around. She currently has three lumps that are large and flat.... This is all coming from last month where there was only one lump. I am shocked. How can tumors grow SO quickly?! He didn't believe me how fast they have popped up, which I was annoyed with... I play with my rats daily, which is how I noticed it in the first place. Anyways.... He said it did not feel like an infection. Considering she still has appetite and energy, I didn't think so either... should I proceed with antibiotics anyways and see?

This is hitting me pretty hard.... I'm one of those people that is really , really, really attached to my rats... But $200 for a biopsy, when I just paid a lot for the visit... it seemed like a lot. I am considering spending the money... I don't know what to do.. I don't want to start a flame war where people start criticizing me for my financial situation, but $200 is A LOT of money to me... I really wish I could sell something.. or work more... I'm afraid if I spend the $200 then I will have trouble paying my bills and go into collections... And since he said it does not feel like infection.... is there a point to the biopsy? I'm really sad/stressed about this... Am I a bad rat mom for not spending that 200?



She still has energy.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That's overpriced. You read of my recent espay at ten at night? $320 total. 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes, it did seem over priced... I am going to look around.. Ive even seen some people get quoted for 20 dollars plus examination fee


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

That was emergency fee office visit surgery meds Etc. 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I would pretty much drive to any location if they would charge me a decent fee for some kind of knowledgable treatment. This vet did not know much about rats and was not an exotic vet. Ugh... so dissatisfied.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yeah. I always say, if you save a hundred in vet bills by pay fifty in gas you still come out ahead. 

This vet was not an exotic vet but was similar to a family practitioner for humans; he worked Ina. Small town so saw guinea pigs to horses. He was knowledgable ( I grilled him on post op care, proper anaesthetic lol). 


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Do you have a local vet tech or vet program? Turns out my exotic vet runs vet tech program; he'll see animals for much cheaper since they're used in classroom and I still trust him. I haven't taken him up on (haven't needed to). 


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

That is practically robbery. Biopsy vsits for us, usually including meds, rarely top over 80- and that is if it's a bad day with a lot of procedures.

It takes my vet five minutes to do a needle aspirate and then put it under a microscope. 200 for that is obscene. I could do that in my own kitchen if I knew what to look for. (my microscope is hiding in the garage but maybe I should find it..)

I am going to be in at my vet in the next week, and I don't think I could afford to take my animals at all if it were that expensive- that is truly obnoxious. I hope you can find a better vet soon.

DO give the meds if you have them. One of my ferrets once displayed badly swollen lymphnodes all over his body. They were HUGE. That is often a symptom of lymphoma- and that is what he was diagnosed with. After a week on steroids, no change. So we decided to try antibiotics on the off chance it was a system-wide infection. The next morning the swelling was almost gone. Moral of the story- it's worth a shot.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

I am so so so worried , and no one around me cares about Scarlett at all, so they're all being really unsympathetic ... 

The lump in front of her leg has gotten BIGGER since the visit!!!! How is this cancer?! This is ridiculous . I have ampicillin and doxycycline in my cupboard, so since doxy is broad spectrum , I'm just going to start her on it I think. I know antibiotics are not to be given unless necessary, but there are no emergency vets that I can get to, and they'll likely all rob me out of my rent money . I am going to find another vet to do this biopsy.

I really do not think that cancer can grow that fast! I'm really freaking out... If anyone has some expertise or advice or input on what this possibly could be, please give me a shout. I live alone with no family, and my friends and partner are really unsympathetic. I am so attached to her, so this is really hard on me... 


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Gannyaan said:


> I am so so so worried , and no one around me cares about Scarlett at all, so they're all being really unsympathetic ...
> 
> The lump in front of her leg has gotten BIGGER since the visit!!!! How is this cancer?! This is ridiculous . I have ampicillin and doxycycline in my cupboard, so since doxy is broad spectrum , I'm just going to start her on it I think. I dont think rats can tolerate ampicillin well... But I know amoxicillin (very similar!) is used for abscess treatment (but so is enroflox, which is similar to doxy...) I know antibiotics are not to be given unless necessary, but there are no emergency vets that I can get to, and they'll likely all rob me out of my rent money even if I could take like a 100 dollar taxi . I am going to find another vet to do this biopsy.
> 
> ...





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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

That is expensive, you could try soaking it daily in as hot as you can stand water on a cotton bud, this woukd encourage any abcess to come to a head. Honestly though in some rats mammary lumps grow scarily fast. Willows arm lump wnet from a pea to pretty much that giant lump in about 2 months, then slowed downa lot and others grew more.

Hugs it is seriously horrible going through this without a good vet to help, its hard enough with a good vet


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

She is going to see another vet tomorrow. I do think she has cancer, but it was recently suggested to be that malignant cancers can also have like "fluid pockets". I think she may also have some kind of fluid build up.

My hope is to aspirate the ones that can be aspirated, start her on tamoxifen and switch her to a non processed food diet, which I am going shopping for this weekend. A little too late.. I've had them on oxbow with fruits and veggies supplemented, so... 

I will update tomorrow.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Good news!!!! This new vet told me that the only way she cold have these three tumors popping up within the last month and growing so fast in the past month is that they are BENIGN!  I mean, I wish it was something different, but at least I know that she probably has some time left . The vet informed me that benign tumors are prolactin regulated and not estrogen regulated, so medication is not really appropriate.... 
I am just happy that I'm doing all I can right now, and that at least I got a second opinion to see whether she could be put on tamoxifen


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