# Response to aeroseek



## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

I read the 'I am a monster' thread and felt compelled to respond, even though the thread is closed.

I find it greatly distressing to see people attacking a 15 year old girl who has opened her heart up here, confessing to what has happened.

Everyone here likes rats, everyone here likes animals. We wouldn't be here if we didn't.

aeroseek is still very young. Like me, like you, like all of us, she is only human. No human is perfect and we all make mistakes. If she wasn't a compassionate person, she wouldn't be upset. She is one of the few people in this world who cares enough to be concerned about the lives of 'vermin'. She is not someone who needs to be told she is a monster, she already feels far more guilty than is necessary for any good to come of it.

When young, mistakes like this teach us the importance of prioritising. It's a great shame that three rats needed to die to teach someone this message, but sometimes that's just the way the world works. The only thing she is guilty of is being human. Making her feel like a monster will just make her believe she is a bad person who deserves to feel perpetually guilty. Everyone needs to get off their soap boxes and remember that human feelings are important too. Most people would kill rats and think nothing of it. This girl should be congratulated for being so compassionate and well-intentioned. She already said she felt guilty, she already said she didn't want to keep animals again, at least in a hurry. That's very mature for someone of her age. She doesn't need to have the messages she already knows slammed down her throat in a nasty way; that's simply counter productive. If you must affirm something difficult someone already knows, do it compassionately so that they understand, not in a way which will leave them traumatised.

Before anyone flames me for belittling what happened, I do understand that the deaths were tragic and pointless, I grieve for them as much as anyone else. I am not trying to belittle what happened, but point out that bashing someone of a young age who is already bashing herself is not helping her and is not helping any rats. It's really quite pathetic to be targetting a young girl who cares dearly for animals when she is far, far more loving and compassionate than the average person out there! How cowardly to be harsh to her while turning a blind eye to the adults who have no care at all for animal welfare. You're only doing it because you will feel better if you make someone else feel worse, and she is a soft target, loving and naive enough to take your cruel words to heart. Don't beat up on a young, impressionable member of your own community who is only doing her best and is good enough to be fully honest and open about it. I admire her courage.

To aeroseek: I do agree that you should make sure you are going to be diligent enough to ensure your animals' needs are fully met before you get any more, but you already know that. Don't beat yourself up over what happened, just learn from it and go on being a loving, compassionate person  If you want to volunteer at an animal shelter or something similar, go for it, but only if you want to, not because you feel you have some moral obligation.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm a bit confused here Sdaji - did you actually read the replies to areoseeks post?

Who exactly attacked him/her? Who told him/her they were a monster? Who "bashed" him/her?

I’m going to quickly summarise for your benefit because I’m not sure we’re actually on the same page here.

I offered my sympathies for the poor neglected rats.

Ration pointed out that it takes a while for an animal to starve to death and in response to the question in the lounge told areoseek not to get any more rats until they are more responsible.

Sweetpea expressed how she felt about it (understandably appalled) while trying how to understand how it happened, and also said not to get more animals.

And Schmea made the suggestion to help other animals in their honour so their deaths wouldn't be meaningless.

No one made any personal comments, attacked or bashed areoseek, or called them a monster. No one.

You then go on to say:

"she already said she didn't want to keep animals again, at least in a hurry. That's very mature for someone of her age. She doesn't need to have the messages she already knows slammed down her throat in a nasty way".

Can I point out 6 minutes after making the "I'm a monster" post areoseek was making a second post in the lounge asking whether they should get more rats or not.

If we read that second post and give him/her a reply saying NO do not get more rats, how exactly is that "slamming" a message he/she already knows down their throat in a "nasty" way? Furthermore, if he/she already knew getting more rats was a horrible idea, why ask us?

I also find your comment saying areoseek should be "congratulated" for being so well intentioned somewhat bizarre. You can have the best intentions in the world, but they don’t count for much if you never see them through.

And lastly this bit:

"It's really quite pathetic to be targetting a young girl who cares dearly for animals when she is far, far more loving and compassionate than the average person out there! How cowardly to be harsh to her while turning a blind eye to the adults who have no care at all for animal welfare. You're only doing it because you will feel better if you make someone else feel worse, and she is a soft target, loving and naive enough to take your cruel words to heart."

Seriously? How is anyone targeting him/her if we're responding to posts he/she started? 

Do you not find it interesting that not one of us made any derogatory personal comments toward areoseek (even though it would have been so easy) but somehow it's okay for you to call us pathetic and imply we're cowards who choose only to get upset and speak up when the perpetrator of an act of animal cruelty is an "easy target"? Does that not strike you as somewhat hypocritical? (not to mention ridiculous.)

As for the "you're only doing it because you will feel better if you make someone else feel worse" part, that doesn't even deserve a response.

I think the only person who is on a soap box here is you Sdaji.

Also, for the record, I was probably the harshest in response to areoseeks post (in the lounge) where I said I'd report them to animal welfare if I knew who they were. 

Well guess what, I still would.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I agree with Zoe.

The "You're only human, so terrible mistakes can be made, justified and then you can be pampered afterwards for doing your best" approach doesn't sit with me.

Too many .. FAR too many .. animals suffer because of that attitude, and the neglect of their owners to even think about the smallest of their needs.

I don't believe that can be justified at all. Regardless of age. (Which by the way, in todays society, 15 year olds are able to work by law in certain establishments .. if they can work, they such as heck have enough responsibility and maturity to care properly for an animal)


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## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

I read the thread the first time, your summary (sugar-coated as it is) is unnecessary. It's amusing to see you glance over the nastiness in it or ignore it entirely.

Saying "If I knew who you were I'd report you to the authorities" is a pretty clear case of using words which will make a sad person who is already remorseful feel worse. It was entirely unnecessary and counterproductive. What do you think the RSPCA would do? A child made an accident, can the RSPCA do anything about that? The animals are dead, they can't be saved now. The poor kid has been crying her heart out and you throw that sort of thing at her! How lacking in empathy can one be? I doubt you'd be so brave about using such harsh words to a grown man if you were face to face with him, the kind who is very common in this world, who kills rats as vermin with no regard for their welfare, yet you're brave enough to sit behind your keyboard and bash this poor grieving child, then have the gall to say no one attacked her! You don't need to say "I think you're dumb" or "I hate you, I hope you die" to use hurtful words. Telling her that if her identity was known to you, you'd take action to make her life very very difficult is extremely hurtful, and is a clear attack on her feelings. You can dig your heels in and deny it if you like, but no one is stupid enough to be fooled.

I am not justifying what she has done, I am not saying she should be congratulated for her rat-keeping efforts, I am saying she should be congratulated for being open about what happened, and being compassionate and remorseful.

There is a nasty way and a kind way that you can do things. The kind way in a situation like this is clearly going to be more effective and make everyone involved feel better. The poor girl already has her heart bleeding! She actually told you that she cried until she couldn't cry any more. She is as upset as her physiology will allow, how long do you want to keep her there? She seems to be a lot more compassionate than you are, even if she has the human trait of being absent minded (which she freely, openly admits and apologises for). You seem to take glee in making someone else feel worse, while she is happy to be the whipping girl and just take it, because of her guilt.

So she made a thread asking for advice about whether or not she should keep rats again. You could tactfully, delicately tell her that it might be a good idea to wait until she has taken the time to think about how to responsibly care for animals, and be sure that she is capable. She is clearly wanting to do what is best. So she jumped straight into asking you a few minutes after making the first thread, so what? The poor thing is in a state of shock and grief, so maybe she made an inappropriate thread. Maybe her parents saw her crying and suggested she get some new rats to cheer her up (right or wrong, this is probably the most common parental response in this situation - by the way, no, it's not the one I'd use), so she thought she'd run her parents idea past you. I'm sure if you saw your own child sobbing in front of you, you'd cut them some slack and show some compassion. If you treated my 15 year old daughter in this way I'd have some serious words for you. If you don't have to see the affect you're having on a crying child, you're brave enough to kick her again while she is still down. She gets one post making her feel stupid and guilty and the second thread is locked, once again shutting her out from being able to get advice or feedback. How big of you!

She is doing the best she can, that's all you can expect of anyone. She wants to do what's right. Heck, she is one of the very few people who is actually willing to pay for vet treatment for a 'worthless' animal! The vast majority of rat keepers do not come to forums, they do not go to vets, they just see a rat at a shop, buy it and take it home. Countless deaths occur due to mistreatment, neglect and indifference, and in the vast majority of cases, no one hears about it. The difference here is that she is trying, she is coming forward. She may not be perfect, but she is so much better than the vast majority, so why paint her as a criminal? Try being nice to her, try to be supportive in her efforts to do the right thing. If seeking assistance and doing her best gets you to try to make her feel bad, she is either going to stop caring for your advice and carry on without your 'wisdom', become depressed and filled with guilt (which might make you feel good, but on the whole it doesn't help anyone or any animals and just makes the world a more negative place) or become hardened and think "Those crazy rat ladies are completely over the top! I'll just be like the rest of the world and squash the vermin, they're just rats, they don't matter".

She must be a very strong, very brave 15 year old girl to be feeling so horrible yet still care so much about rats that she is willing to come back here to your nastiness. In her shoes most people would be looking elsewhere.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i just read both threads. the reporting to the authorites i will agree was harsh, but not unwarrented. just because she is coming to the forum for advice and admitting her failures does not make her someone to be commended. comparing her to people that would out of hand kill rats because they're rats or to people that simply do not care about their animals is not warrented. just because she is better then them in that she is thinking and assumingly grieving the loss of her animals does not make her a better person then them. it does not mean much of anything. just because there is a majority of people without hearts to the suffering of animals does not excuse the rest of us or make us better for caring for our animals. we made different choices in the animal welfare of our animals then them but because there are fewer of us makes no difference to the moral ethicity of our decisions. 

i feel that the topics should have been warned to be kept civil rather then locked, but then again i'm more for letting people work out their issues then to avoid dispute. i could see both threads (especially the one in the lounge) getting heated but as of yet (at least the one in the bridge) they had not gotten bad. suggestions were offered to honor the memory and show to herself that she had learned something from their tragic passing. suggestions were offered for her to reflect and truely understand all the repercussions of her decisions and lack of care for her animals, not just on the animals who died as a result but on the type of person that she currently is. we are not fixed in stone, we can change and learn from experiences. but to do that we must reflect on our actions beyond the immediate consequnces of the action. 

the concern mentioned for how the animals were able to starve to death is also very valid. it takes weeks for an animal to starve, even a rat. it would be faster if they had dehydrated, but she doesn't say that they died of thirst, but starving. which means that someone had to be paying enough attention to at least be watering her animals, someone should have noticed how thin they were getting. to have starved and found dead not just emciated means that she couldn't have even looked in the cage for weeks, no patting, no talking, no interaction at all. she's been here talking about her rats and a member of the forum enough to have over a hundred posts, and her animals starved...

true, we don't hear about every case of starvation or neglect, but we hear about it more then we would like. we make efforts to rescue the animals from these neglectful owners. i myself have taken in starved animals that the owner forgot about or didn't pay enough attention to to realize that you shouldn't be able to see ribs. i was not easy with that person for the condition she allowed her pets to get into, just because areiseek is a forum member doesn't excuse her from some tongue wagging either. she even posted expecting it. frankly she didn't get much either. there wasn't one flame, just suggestions on how to make the sacrifice of her animals meaningful, to make sure that their leason taught was a leasoned learned. just saying your sorry does not mean that you have heard what they taught. you have to reflect, you have to take action to better yourself and teach yourself to be more responsible. that's all that was said in the bridge post. she feels guilty, and she should. she did something that she shouldn't have done-the definition of a reason to be feeling guilty. but just feeling guilty is not going to change her. she needs to take that feeling and learn from it. take steps to better herself so things like this won't happen again. 

its good to take another perspective and its good to place yourself in her shoes when considering your response. but i think people have. if i had done something like starving my animals when i was 15 i would take a step back and try to figure out how i let that happen and how to make myself into a person that that would never happen again. if i didn't know how to do that i would go to people that could make suggestions like they have here. not getting anymore animals until i can show to myself that i can properly care for them is a good start. going to rescues or donating money or time to needy animals that are not in my personal care is a good place to learn how to be more responsible. so no, i don't think anyone beat up on her and i don't think anyone was unjustified to let her know how much starving an animal will and does anger them.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

No more rats for Aero at this time, I stand behind everything twitch has just said.

Furthermore I left RMEN (aeroseek's rat forum) because the lack of care/knowlege was apalling and they were all just patting each other on the back for this. Owning rats or any pet is a privilege not a right. 

Honestly, 15 years old is not an excuse for her neglect. She ran a rat forum for petes sake! If she was 6 years old or even 8 years old, this might be "excusable" but to post this and expect people to say "oooh poor you!"? Not going to happen.


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## Schmea (Sep 21, 2007)

Aeroseek came to the forum asking for responses, and was fully aware and even stated in the original posts that she was aware that some responses may be negative, but she wanted to hear what people had to say. The responses given were peoples' reaction, which was exactly what she was looking for.

15 years old is one year away from driving a car. It's being in grade ten: for some, that's a mere two years from graduation from High School, and having to take responsibility for EVERYTHING in their life, as they start a new career and move out from their parents home. Some 15 year olds have children of their own. You and I differ greatly on your view of 15 as "very young".

Lastly... the best people I know are those who have learned to take personal responsibility for their actions, and grow from it. You are arguing, through the merits of being 15, Aeroseek should only have to admit what she has done, say sorry, and we should all swaddle her and tell her it will all be alright... but... you're saying people should have lied about THEIR feelings (which I'm sure many did... the posts you're attacking were at most criticisms, and not attacks.) to spare the feelings of the one who has erred. To a child, perhaps, but to a 15 year old who asks for opinions, we took what she'd said and most of us tried to be constructive. 

As for choosing the easy target... I read what she'd said, saw that she felt bad, and so made a constructive post. I made a note of her age, because 15 IS old enough to decide what sort of person she wants to be, and she has the power right now to make positive changes in her life to be a better person after this. Easy target... huh. Give me a 25 year old musclehead who just let his rats starve to death, and I guarantee you I'm gonna be ten times harsher... here, or face to face.

The simple fact is, she let her rats starve to death, something that takes weeks. She's 15... old enough to learn from this... and really, that's all anyone said. Coming in here and telling us "but she said she's sorry! That means you CAN'T do anything but say how brave and pretty and nice she is!" is ridiculous.


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## zoe9 (Oct 3, 2007)

Sdaji the only thing missing from your posts is the overwrought hand wringing and violins playing.


Definition of sugar coated:

1 : to coat with sugar 2 : to make superficially attractive or palatable


I sugar coated nothing.

Please tell me where this nastiness is because I’m not seeing it. The only nastiness I am getting is from you with your repeated personal attacks. 

I said I would report areoseek to the authorities not to make her feel worse or “bash her” or, as you’ve laughably suggested, to make myself feel better. I said it because it’s true. Would you have preferred I outright lied to spare her feelings, or sugar-coated my own feelings? Sorry, but I don’t work that way. I’m not a hypocrite. 

Furthermore I resent your implication that I only said it because she’s a “15 year old girl”. Actually, where did that even come from? A quick look at early introductory posts from areoseek made in February state she’s 16. If she was 16 in February, odds are she’s 17 now. You still going to play the “she’s just a child so young” card for a 17 year old? At what age exactly do you expect people to take accountability for their own actions?

Point being, I did not know any personal particulars of areoseek when I made my comments. I didn’t know if she was 15, 17 or 27 so do not try and make out I’m only saying things because I can get away with it due to her age and the assumption you have made that I am older.

And for the record, I would make the same comments to a grown man face to face. I have zero-tolerance when it comes to any form of animal cruelty and I have never been afraid to speak up. Ever.

I also resent your comment that my response to her post in the lounge caused that thread to be locked thus “shutting her out from being able to get advice and feedback” and “how big” of me. Again I have to ask, are you serious? That comment is ridiculous. Yes, that’s exactly what I wanted to happen. My entire plan was to have the thread locked and deny her any further responses. Good for me !

Sdaji I’ve wasted enough of my time here. I find your personal attacks on others for supposedly attacking areoseek completely unjustified and although you are certainly entitled to your opinion its reeks of hypocrisy and double-standards which I find extremely offensive and distasteful.


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## RFAdmin (Feb 25, 2006)

thread is locked. people have had their say. i don't foresee anything good coming from this thread. pm me if you have a question about why it was locked.


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