# Please help - fighting rats



## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

My bucks fight a lot and I feel like I'm getting nowhere. 

Long story short - three rescues, two from breeder. Intros went well at 12-14 weeks of age. Usual hormone squabbles at 4-5 months. Put in smaller cage to force bonding at 6 months, went well. Now 9 months, started having 2/3 big fights daily - screaming, tufts of fur, large (accidental) nail slashes (examples attached). Not sure who the starter is but the alpha is the puffball by the end. 

Why is this happening? How can I stop it? I'm worried to death about these injuries - I don't want to neuter unless I absolutely have to, as I believe it doesn't really solve problems, just shifts them around.

Please help - I'm grateful - feeling pretty stressed about this


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## SneakyLord (Mar 22, 2014)

Those are quite bad cuts, and adult fights usually end in death so I'd separate them quickly. You said you moved them into a smaller cage to force bond? This will have made it worse. The smaller the space the worse they become because each rat needs 2 cubic metres of space at least. As I said before adult fighting is very serious and leads to more serious injuries. Seems as though ones just challenging the alpha and hopefully it dies out but one could die instead.


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## ahrat (Aug 12, 2013)

If they're going after testicles, as the one picture shows, that is not a good sign at all. Rats don't really do accidental gashes. Small scrapes maybe, little nicks, but those gashes on the testicles are a serious sign. Never force rats into a smaller space. It will only cause more tension. I suggest separating ASAP. Bond with both of them separately as much as possible. Then try to do intros. This is going to be a long process. But I do notice that my boys take the other boys much easier when they're bonded and respect me as the alpha. I just introed a 4 month old, who was a little tiny boy compared to my three fat-bottomed buck greased year+ old boys (all unneutered).
How did you intro? Did you ever correct the scuffles at the beginning? Were they always this serious?


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

They were only in the smaller cage for a couple of weeks, and the fights died down a lot for some time after they moved back into the main cage. I'm certain those gashes are not deliberate. The one being pinned is kicking out with back feet and the nails are causing that. I've had their nails trimmed recently to help that. The fights always seem to occur when there's a sudden noise - the alpha goes crazy if he's made to jump. Separate how? Each into their own cage? I don't have space for that.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Separate all three. Clean the wounds with saline solution, you can make it at home, and keep them clean. You need to read the immersion thread, it's stickied under the behavior section. Those woulds, or at least the one on his testes may need stitches. 
It's sounding like there's no clear alpha so they're all fighting for the dominate position. You need to make it clear that YOU are the alpha and NOT them and that this behavior will NOT be tolerated. Once everyone understands that you're alpha their hormone levels should start to die back down. Having them fixed is a good idea too simply because they've drawn blood. Usually fights and end in "no blood no fowl" but yours have crossed that border. 
Someone with more experience than myself should step in and give better advice than mine. So for now just keep them away from each other and keep those wounds clean.

EDIT: also those don't look like scratches from toenails. Those look like bites. I've had my fingers and hands sliced open just like that from sharp little rat teeth.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

I think I need to give more info - I didn't at first as I wanted to avoid rambling (I'm good at that). 

There are five boys, and there's a clear alpha, and a clear "bottom of the pack" guy. The other three (they are the ones that get injured) are floating around in the middle somewhere.The only fights I've ever seen involve the alpha getting all het up. But I don't know if he starts it. I've noticed a pattern:

They all have myco issues, and are frequently on antibiotics. When they're on them and are feeling good, no fights. When they're off them, and get sneezy and cough a lot, that's when the fights occur. Am in discussions with my vet about keeping them on abs permanently to help both the myco and the fights.

They are well bonded otherwise and always sleep in a pile, groom each other, and are very playful.

I've noticed a pattern to the fights also - my house is very very quiet (I like it that way) and when there's a sudden noise, that's when the fights happen - I think alpha thinks another lad is doing something without permission or something, makes him jump and he goes crazy. For example - washing machine starts spinning or motorbike goes past outside.

I don't have space for five cages and I don't think there's a need for separation, I just need to figure out how to solve the fighting issue. Someone suggested putting rescue remedy in their water and that should calm them. Any thoughts on that?

EDIT: I meant to say, those wounds are a week or so ago and have now healed. Both occurred at different times, wasn't a blood bath. Neither of them bled at all, superficial wounds only.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Imaginary Evil said:


> Separate how? Each into their own cage? I don't have space for that.


If you have to, make a bin cage. Take a large tote and cut the sides out then replace the sides with hardware cloth so they have plenty of ventilation. This doesn't cost very much and will prevent them from getting at each other. It's a temporary fix but it works.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Ah, makes more sense now! If you can I would separate the ones who have wounds just to make sure they don't get infected and that they heal right.


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## ahrat (Aug 12, 2013)

You absolutely NEED to separate. If you don't, one of your rats could get killed. Those are not superficial. Anything longer and deeper than a small nick is a pretty serious injury. Not saying it's extremely serious and needed a vet visit, but it absolutely warrants separation. 
There isn't a distinct alpha in your pack if he isn't controlling the pack. That's what the alpha is for. He keeps everyone in line. There will be squabbles between the others, but those are not scratches, those are wounds. 
I've introed two boys over the course of a year to my pack, and nothing like this has happened, so it safe to assume it's not the norm or something didn't happen quite right. 
Once again, separate, do immersion with all of them, then slowly introduce them again. 
Then if that doesn't work, you need to think about neuters for the most aggressive boys. 


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Those are definite bites, nasty ones that mean business too, and probaby from your alpha. He sounds very hormonal and you should consider neutering him ASAP. Try to keep them together and once the hormones start fading out you should see a difference in the frequency of the fights...the puffy guy is always the problem. You're never going to be able to convince him you are boss while he's hormonal...they are not exactly rational at this point and you could be the one getting bitten badly 

I have dealt with a lot of hormonal males and when they get this bad, the snip is the only thing to help them. 

From this 










to this 










Nate is a much much happier boy now


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

It definitely sounds like it's worth snipping the alpha then. I'll make an appointment. In the meantime, is the Rescue Remedy worth a try? They've been together since they were 16 weeks and this behaviour is no different to how it's been the whole time, so I'm very reluctant to separate. Re-intros would be very difficult at this age I imagine, plus 99% of the time they're very happy together. They eat, sleep and play together quite happily, no one is seeming to be unhappy or hiding in a corner.

It's such a massive shame - the alpha is such a lovely boy, very cuddly and friendly with me, grooms me like another rat, just a bit highly strung.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

Also, another thing about the alpha - may be relevant, maybe not. I don't think he poos in his cage, he seems to save them all up for free roaming time and deposits 12-15 little bundles of joy all over my bed every night. A sign of something?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Imaginary Evil said:


> It definitely sounds like it's worth snipping the alpha then. I'll make an appointment. In the meantime, is the Rescue Remedy worth a try? They've been together since they were 16 weeks and this behaviour is no different to how it's been the whole time, so I'm very reluctant to separate. Re-intros would be very difficult at this age I imagine, plus 99% of the time they're very happy together. They eat, sleep and play together quite happily, no one is seeming to be unhappy or hiding in a corner.
> 
> It's such a massive shame - the alpha is such a lovely boy, very cuddly and friendly with me, grooms me like another rat, just a bit highly strung.


I have only had luck with RR with mild issues and definitely not hormonal rages unfortunately. I HAVE tried it with an older male who was too unwell to handle a standard neuter and my vet won't do chemical ones, so I tried a lot of different things including rescue remedy...no difference.


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

Free roaming tonight and I've noticed something odd. Alpha is going around minding his own business, and the bottom of the pile guy is chasing everyone around and puffing up. What the heck? Any clue as to what that's all about?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Your lower guy may be trying to usurp. This is the source of many late-puberty problems, as the guy at the bottom decides he wants to be on top and it messes everyone up. 


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## Imaginary Evil (Jul 7, 2012)

nanashi7 said:


> Your lower guy may be trying to usurp. This is the source of many late-puberty problems, as the guy at the bottom decides he wants to be on top and it messes everyone up. Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He's so silly. He's never been happy with his position in the pack.


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