# A vegetarian dilemma: a question of how to feed animal protein to pet rats.



## Wow (Mar 26, 2014)

I've become a strict vegetarian after living with pet rats for half a year. I guess it's hard to be caring so much for one kind of animal while still eating the others, your mind quickly makes the link between the rats (which a lot of people kill but you so very much care about) and other living things (which can be many people's food but could have been someone's loved ones). I've lived a better, more compassionate life as the result. One problem still remains, I am now very uncomfortable feeding my rats boiled shrimp (their favorite in the whole world). I know that rats need animal protein, and I am willing to make compromise and feed them meat. Just not in the form of the whole animal (like a shrimp), or anything like pieces of chicken or beef. I can buy them dog food or cat food, baby food, or imitation crab (any food that's not offensive to vegetarian sensibility). I'm already feeding them yogurt and eggs. The problem is, I'm not sure if the rats would get enough protein from just yogurt and eggs. Also my rats don't like the taste of dry dog food (these rats are spoiled little things, and they are hard to please when it comes to food - I live in Thailand, a rice producing country, and these young rats can already discern the best quality rice in the land from the mediocre ones, they are only willing to eat white or brown jasmine rice and no other). So, considering how pampered these rats are, and considering my vegetarian sensibility, would any of you please give me suggestion on how to feed animal protein to my rats? Thank you very much. - Wow.


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## Nikadi (Jan 11, 2014)

You're being a bit OTT imo. I say this as somebody who has been a veggie for 19 years. You know that they need the protein, you also realise that they'll get it in sub-standard dog foods, so surely you are better giving them the real deal as fresh as you can and from as ethical source as possible on a demand basis than to get dog food in which the meat probably comes from the most unsavoury parts of animals and also from animals who've probably been treated badly?


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## Wow (Mar 26, 2014)

You made a good point. I'll contemplate this. It's nice to hear from another vegetarian. Thank you.


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## Nikadi (Jan 11, 2014)

I do understand why you'd feel uncomfortable with handling something that looks as it would before processing, but for me it comes down to compromising on a compromise. I couldn't own snakes because I wouldn't want to feed live creatures to one and having owned rats I would be uncomfortable feeding large snakes rats, as much as I love snakes.

We give our ratties organic dog and cat food which has only 'real' ingredients, but that's relatively easy to get in my part of the UK (Hippy dippy city full of veggies, vegans, generally ethical people!). Things like tins of tuna and chicken with some vegetables, and no chemicals or additives. We wouldn't be able to do that easily elsewhere and would probably stick to whole meats if we did live elsewhere.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Honestly I think rats could cope very well on just egg and soya as protien source, maybe with some added fish now and then, though I think bones would be more than worthwhile too. Whilst a variety can be good eggs, fish, soya and then chicken are best for them in that order with red meat being less good. I think rats can live fine as vegetarians, however I dont belive they can truelly thrive as vegans.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Isamurat is an expert, so if anything I'mm about to say contradicts what her input would be, disregard it  I've been doing research into rat diets for only a few months, but heres what I think...  . 
Rats can be lactose intolerant, and in addition, studies have shown that a rat diet any higher than 5% in casein causes cancer in rats... egg might be better, although it has a ton of cholesterol.... it is a complete protein, so you needn't worry that you're being irresponsible. An excellent source of protein for rats is actually meal worms and crickets  (from the pet store, not wild!)... Seeing as you are already feeding them rice, mix the rice with lentils to supplement the amino acids that rice does not have. Edamamme is also a good source of protein for them (there are some controversial studies with soy, but I don't think the evidence is that strong at all). Tofu as well (packaged only, not bulk type)

Rats in the wild would have very little access to any other protein than insects/annelids, the occasional mouse or smaller rodent, and do not need much protein in their diets, so as long as you are feeding them a balance of all amino acids, I wouldnt worry too much 

i really wish my babies could be vegan, but I am not too sure about it, for the fact that they cannot let me know how theyre feeling on a vegan diet in order for me to adjust it to their needs. Anyways...

Good luck.


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## Wow (Mar 26, 2014)

Oh thank you so much Isamurat and Gannyaan. I didn't know about the casein before, it's really good to know. I'll follow your advices. Also I forgot to tell you the rats are already on Oxbow rat food, so it's supposed to be a complete and balanced diet. Just that the rats eat very little of Oxbow, and mostly eat the rice, nuts, soy milk, and other treats instead, so I was worried about them not having not enough animal protein. The informations you kindly provided are very helpful. Thanks for sharing.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I woukd be careful about feeding a home mixture unless its balanced. A good home made mix is superior in my mind to any block but you need to get the balance right. Have a look here http://isamu.weebly.com/options-for-dry-mixes.html , it has some ideas of how to do it well. I use a lot of dried rice in my mixes as well as fish based dog food. It does take a bit of work to find ingredients at first in a different country but well worth it. You can also leave the protien element out of a dried mix and suppliment with fresh protien like cooked egg etc.


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## Nikadi (Jan 11, 2014)

Isa: Rats are a bit like dogs in that respect then? That a well balanced vegetarian diet would be okay for them? Interesting to know! Not so worried about my girls who are fussy buggers now. They do eat egg/chicken occasionally, and will turn their noses up at it just as often -_-


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

(PLEASE do not feed your dog a vegetarian diet, ever! They are not designed to be vegetarians, or even omnivores!)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Long ago my first rifle coach was a native north american... Although I did a few years as a vegan for health reasons, I've always followed his philosophy when it comes to animals.

If you kill it, you eat it... (And yes, I really upset a date once by stopping and on the road butchering a rabbit that ran into the front of my car.. got killed but not crushed) There is a food chain and one animal is intended to eat another sometimes. I try never to waste food, either animal or vegetable. It's a matter of respect I have for other life that was given for mine or our rats. I suspect in nature very few shrimp die of old age, everything in the oceans eats them. To some extent that's why they are there. As long as you value their sacrifice their death had a purpose. Withholding the protein something already gave it's life to provide them with nutrition, and thereby to make your rats sick, seems like a good plan gone sideways.


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## Wow (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks Rat Daddy for kindly considering the issue and for replying. How was vegan diet for your health? I've heard good things about vegan diet. I'm a vegetarian myself. I'm going to give meat to my rats though, I think you are right about not depriving them of their nutritional needs. Thanks.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I studied the macrobiotic diet and lived it a few years... a properly balanced vegan diet greatly improved my health... I tried a similar diet with Fuzzy Rat when she was sick, I doubt it made much of a difference with the mammary tumors... the tumors kept growing and by reducing her calories her non-tumor body may have actually shrank faster... 

I concur with most folks that rats actually need very little animal protein, but the term "very little" is culturally defined... In the U.S. some folks eat diets composed primarily of meat and animal products, whereas in other parts of the world people eat far less animal proteins. I might define very little meat very differently than you might. 

I found it disappointing, that the tumors absorbed all of Fuzzy Rat's nutrition while the rat portion of her body was essentially consumed too.... I've read somewhere that rats don't have the metabolic ability to reverse cancers or tumors that humans have and with their short life spans that might make sense, as balanced vegan diets have been associated with cancer and tumor reversals in humans. I certainly can't say this is true for rats.

All in all vegan diets are possible for humans and might even be for rats, but the more vegan the diet, the more complicated it gets to nutritionally balance it. A piece of fish or slice of meat contains many essential elements for good nutrition that might require several different vegetable sources to be consumed in the correct proportions to replace the missing animal products, not to mention the calorie short fall. 

In nature, rats do hunt smaller animals and eat insects and in one place in Italy they reputedly dive for mollusks. I can't imagine any place rats live that they can't find some insect, fish or animal materials to consume. While you might be able to carefully craft a vegan diet for rats, I think it's a risky endeavor. But most of all I don't see it based on philosophical grounds... rats are part of the food chain. They eat smaller animals and are eaten in return, where a human may benefit their karma by abstaining from consuming other animals, I can't see a similar benefit to rats. So I only see that a human should try to avoid wasting food provided by either animals or plants when preparing their rat's diet.

The philosophical basis for humans leading a vegan life style is to be blameless in another animal's suffering. The fact that a human can be cognitive of another animal's suffering is required for the karmic effect... ie If a Buddhist monk steps on an ant he does not see, he bears no karmic ill effect from the killing. There must be intent and comprehension for there to be a consequence... As rats have no ill intent and can't comprehend that they are causing suffering to the animal they are eating, they aren't injuring their karma by eating one.

As to the human's karmic responsibility for feeding animal products to rats... I would risk to assume that it would be more wrong to prevent an animal from eating the food it requires to be healthy and would consume in nature anyway, than to protect another animal that would have been eaten if the human wasn't involved... 

As the Dhammapada doesn't mention rats specifically... so I'm betting that point can be argued. Christian ethics don't apply as all animals are without souls and are put on earth to serve the needs of man anyway... 

Overall the native american standard of honoring the sacrifice of one animal in nourishing another seems to be the safest general rule to apply where rats are concerned. Rats by being mostly scavengers would seem to be a safeguard against food waste by design.


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

Forgetting the article for a second: should I be feeding my girls more animal proteins (I don't' have an ethical problem with it)? They hardly get it. I had meal worms like a few weeks ago until they went bad (found canned ones on clearance), but usually they only get animal protein once a month usually.


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## Persian_boy (Mar 16, 2014)

Honestly, like a couple others on here say, your rats will be fine with eggs and yogurt for their protein source. In the first place, rats aren't even supposed to have massive amounts of protein. I feed mine crickets once a week/two and dry dog food. That being said, animal protein is almost always better than plant protein.


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## Nikadi (Jan 11, 2014)

Caged: Healthy dogs _can_ be vegetarian, personally I wouldn't have any dogs I would ever have as vegetarian but with the right guidance from a vet, they can be vegetarian. Much like how a human child can be vegan if it's very carefully monitored by professionals. Cats OTOH, cannot be vegetarian. We even have vets around my area who specialise in advice regarding vegetarianism and dogs/other pets.

Rat Daddy: I go by the mantra of "If you couldn't kill and prepare it, you shouldn't eat it." Meat is too readily available these days, we're not designed to eat as much as we do. It also really bugs me to have people trying to wind me up about being vegetarian yet they wouldn't even gut a fish because it's "gross" -_-


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## binkyhoo (Sep 28, 2008)

A rat vegetarian? I wont say no but I will say What?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Jackie said:


> Forgetting the article for a second: should I be feeding my girls more animal proteins (I don't' have an ethical problem with it)? They hardly get it. I had meal worms like a few weeks ago until they went bad (found canned ones on clearance), but usually they only get animal protein once a month usually.


Whats your rats normal diet, they may be getting whT they need with minimal extras. Meat contains lots of useful protiens and vitamins howevr so do some other sources of protein, soya being one, though I wouldnt want it as a sole protien source. Fish and egg are also good and help balance things a lot better than using a single source. So do insects and such. I am not a big fan of feeding ratz lots of red meat, it doesnt add mucn other than iron and liver can dl that, generally white meats are better.


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## annoellyn (Sep 19, 2013)

i've been a vegetarian for about 8 years now. i feed mine yogurt and eggs and dog food for protein. however, when i go over to my mom's house she always some chicken bones for them to gnaw on and they love that. same with if i eat at a friends house and they eat white meat, i always take home scraps for them. i also feel them canned fish on occasion and the odd meal worm here and there.


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## Urbanwolf (Nov 25, 2013)

I have a related question so I am hoping you don't mind me posting in your topic... I was thinking of using a vegetarian dog food as part of my rats' diet. Is that ok or would it be better to use one with animal protein? The vegetarian food has lower protein levels than most other dogs foods I've found.


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## Gannyaan (Dec 7, 2012)

Hey urban, which dog food is it?? I wanna take a look at the ingredients and see if it could be an interesting treat....


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## Urbanwolf (Nov 25, 2013)

The one I was thinking of is Petguard organic vegetarian formula. I also found some dog food mixes that you're supposed to add meat to make a meal for dogs, I think one is called a Veg to Bowl?


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