# Immersion advice please!



## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi all. I've had my two first rats for 5 or so days now and I'm not having much luck with the whole immersion process. They're about 5-6 weeks old I think. They don't always hide when I'm in the room now which is good, but still not ideal as I can tell they don't trust me. I've tried putting my hand in the cage and if they're feeling brave they will sniff me and then hide somewhere. They won't take treats off me either.

So I was reading through the immersion guide but my problem is that I can't get either one of them out of the cage to get started with it. I've tried taking their bed out and one of them was thinking about climbing my jumper but freaked out and ran back. When I cleaned their cage yesterday and I tried to take them out of their cage, Alfie ended up under my wardrobe. 

I really am keen to try immersion but how do I go about it when I can't even get a hold of them to get them out of their cage? 

If I'm doing anything wrong then please correct me as I want to make sure I'm doing this right, so all advice and criticism is appreciated!


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## Sabatea (Aug 23, 2014)

Sometimes if they really are adamant about staying in the cage you just have to deal with it and lung and grab them. You're not exactly trying to scare them but you need to get them out of there or trust training and immersion will never happen. I know a lot of users here have had luck with putting their rats in the hood of hoodies/jackets and calming their rats down that way. Maybe you could try that for a while with them and then try sitting with them? Do they ignore you during immersion or are they just skittish of you?


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm going to try getting them out the cage again today. Also, should I do the training individually or with them both together?


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## MOA (Sep 7, 2014)

It's usually recommended to do it together


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I think I'm doing something wrong. I've tried all sorts and Alfie is just like nope. I'm letting them explore the bathroom but they're so skittish it's unreal. What do you suggest I do now?


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Just go hands on and get them out the cage. Have a really baggy hoodie on and immediately put them down your hoodie, do that for 10-20 minutes, letting them sniff around them go to your Immersion area and get them out. I would advice to do Immersion one on one if they are that terrified. It's easier to have one on one as well as you can put all your love and attention into that one baby  Good luck and let us know how it goes!


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Go and sit in the corner with him. Stroke him, skritch him, talk to him. You have to make a point that "yes, I am here to stay and I love you so goddamn love me too". My Arthur started terrified like that in a corner. It's been a month now and he's still skittish but loves spending hours in my hoodie or on my shoulder. It takes time but just don't let them be. As I've seen rat daddy say, be that child in a pet store. Don't leave them alone but have the gentleness of an adult


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't know if it's a good sign but Alfie is cleaning himself?


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

They're both in the corner now. I'm stroking them and tickling their bellies and they just sit and let me do it. Not sure what to do next! They're still really skittish  Thanks for the help so far guys, I'm so grateful


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Thats preening. Thats their "thinking time". Don't disturb them when they're doing this, they're thinking and maybe even changing their mind about you  Have a read through Rat Daddy's Immersion thread, it's long but worth it. It really helped me


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Coconut said:


> They're both in the corner now. I'm stroking them and tickling their bellies and they just sit and let me do it. Not sure what to do next! They're still really skittish  Thanks for the help so far guys, I'm so grateful


Scoop what you would say is the bravest one up and fuss them on your lap. Scratch their head and being their ears (skritching), talk to them. This helped with mine as when the bravest one was on me, it kind of spurred the scardy pants one to see what all the fuss was about. Don't worry if you don't get the results you want in one go, I get my lads out for 2-4 hours a day and they're still not that into me. It takes time but one day they'll change and it'll be like "why the **** wasn't it like this the whole time!" haha. Rats are all or nothing so just persevere  They're beautiful by the way!


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

So far Eddie is being the brave one!


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

God, his face looks like my Rupert! What a sweetheart. Just give him love, try and offer him food  Let him know that you're not going anywhere ever, he's stuck with you!  Even when the lads aren't out on free range, I go to them every hour and have a couple minutes chat and fuss with them! Just to let them know I'm around  It also purely depends on your rats. My first 2 Rupe & Arth were from [email protected], they're going to take time! The two I adopted Friday from a girl who didn't have the time anymore have taken to me so well, licking me and just wanting to be around me. So it does depends on the rat, how much time you can spend with them daily and how you go about it  I have faith though!!


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

They're both sat cleaning themselves now, it's adorable  yeah my boys are from pets at home too. I figured it was going to take a while. When they make a little chattery chirping noise what does that mean?


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

You know, mine do that and I don't even know what it is!! Mine tend to do it when they're happily running around popcorning so I take it as a good thing! I know it's not bruxxing because thats like the grinding of their teeth  [email protected] is bloody awful for raising sociable animals, as is any pet store really! But hey, they all need a good home


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

Little Alfie is falling asleep on me! Progress!!!!! He loves it when I tickle him under the chin :3


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## CatsRatsVeggies (Aug 18, 2014)

Thats really good!!!!  Arghhhh I'm so happy for you!!! What a cutiepatootie!


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

Mine chatter when they are excited or nervous. When it's treat time they all chatter like crazy!


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I've called it a day for that session as I've been in the bathroom with them for a good few hours and I'm getting hungry now hehe. They let me pick them up a little better than before as getting them back in the cage wasn't as difficult as it was to get them out  

I'll try that again tomorrow! They're very fond of their sputnik. Especially Alfie  

I do appreciate all the help as I've never done this before and I couldn't have done it without your motivation and help  it's nice to share with people who also love rats as not many people I know actually like them  what's not to love about them??

Until next time, immersion episode 1 complete! Haha


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

That seemed like a nice first session, it's always hard to start with a rat that doesn't even know what, much less who you are... And when you know nothing about who your new rat or rats are... Then you start making the most basic of contact and start to communicate and build trust at the most basic level and start working your way up... It looks like you made some very nice progress, keep up the good work.

I also liked the coaching. That was very nicely done guys! It's hard to face your first rat in immersion on level ground and one on one and face to face. There's a certain element of uncertainty that everyone goes through in their first immersion, kind of a "what am I doing?" or "what am I supposed to be doing?" or "this can't possibly be right!" moment. And this is where it's so great to have someone that's done immersion before there to provide comfort and guidance. And those who were coaching did a terrific job! 

Immersion is the process of making a friend or perhaps somewhat akin to falling in love, it's organic more than scientific. It's not an easy thing to explain. But once you have done it, it just makes perfect sense and it's somehow easier to share your intuition and insights than it is to detail a procedure soup to nuts. And best of all, it's really fun to do an immersion along with someone else. I've coached lot's of immersions and they all bring back my own fond experiences getting to know our own rats and the genuine joy I felt making a new furry best friend. And for me, each immersion recalls the memory and the affection of the truly amazing Fuzzy Rat that taught me how it's done. The peculiar little rat that kept engaging me until I got it. She just kept engaging and trying different approaches until I suddenly realized she was communicating with me and she wanted to be my friend... And for me that changed everything, just like when a human immerses their rat it changes everything for them and their rats... 

I suppose it started for me by being immersed, then doing immersions, then coaching them, each step is rewarding in itself and I'm glad to see other folks stepping up and sharing in the full circle of the experience. I think it's a little harder to coach an extreme immersion, but those are relatively uncommon and the reward is saving a rat from what can be a terrible fate so the rewards are multiplied even when it can become an emotional roller-coaster to get through it. 

It's always gratifying to congratulate folks on their successes doing immersion, and I just thought I should add that I should mention that I'm also very proud of the folks that have done it and are taking their time and investing their effort to help other's by coaching. 

On a personal note, when I first started coaching immersions, after every successful session, I'd go and give Fuzzy Rat a big hug and snuggle.. she was pretty old by then and also pretty debilitated, but she loved the affection. I suppose it was a way of sharing the experience with my co-founder and best furry friend. But it made me feel good too, so when you coach an immersion, don't forget to share the experience with your own rats. They did the immersion with you and deserve some of the credit for your experience too. When you share the love, don't forget to treat yourself and your rats too. Building a new relationship based on communication, trust and love is such a special experience, don't forget to share it around your own home too.

Great job all around!


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

They're still rather skittish but I've definitely noticed their personalities starting to shine through. I would have thought they would start to get less nervous but I guess time will tell! 

Also, I assume they're just play fighting but they're chasing each other around and I keep hearing the occasional squeak when the start wrestling. I hope it is just play fighting!

Once again, I'm very grateful for all the help and one day I hope I will be able to help someone else with my experiences!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Before immersion it often took weeks to make any progress at all with new rats. Check out the ancient threads or web sites that still do things the old way... So a bit skittish after a few hours is OK... your next session will build on the progress you've made so far. And immersion leads to training and play and lots of fun together with your amazing little furry family members... 

High energy is normal with young rats, they play fight and chase with each other and soon you will be included in the fun too. It can be just a bit unnerving to rat owners that haven't had young rats before, but as your rats age and calm down it's something you will actually miss and perhaps encourage. 

I'm glad you got the help you needed and I'm sure you will get your turn to pass on the favor.

Best luck.


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I feel like I'm back to square one... :/ got Alfie out of the cage and it took a lot of effort to get him from behind my wardrobe again the little tinker. I do actually feel like I'm back to square one with them both  I'm trying not to get disheartened but it's difficult.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

For the first month or so my boys were quite moody - one day it would feel like we were becoming friends, the next they would be freaking out and trying to get away from me for no apparent reason. They're absolutely fine now so try not to be to disheartened. Perseverance will pay off in the end


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

Kitterpuss said:


> For the first month or so my boys were quite moody - one day it would feel like we were becoming friends, the next they would be freaking out and trying to get away from me for no apparent reason. They're absolutely fine now so try not to be to disheartened. Perseverance will pay off in the end


I'm hoping this is the case, but I'm not having many good days at all with them. The slightest movement I make or say makes them jump a mile and hide. They don't come near my hand when I put it in the cage either. It's like yesterday never happened :/


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

I had a lot of days like that. I had one rat in particular who would freak out and leap out of my hands in desperation, and land dangerously from height. When he did this I would pick him up again and kind of force him to be held, so that he would learn that such dangerous behaviour would not get him anywhere. It really seemed to help and he calmed down after a few weeks. Now he's my sweetest cuddliest boy!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yesterday definitely happened. Not to worry, as Kitterpuss writes, sometimes your rats will revert a bit, you have laid the foundation and today it should be easier. Yesterday my big girl Max was climbing all over me and giving kisses, today she just weebled by, sniffed my hand and weebled onward like I was inedible. So why the change of mood? Because she's a moody rat or maybe she's mad at me for last night when I wouldn't let her sleep together with cloud? Maybe something frightened your rats while you slept or were out last night? Who knows? Maybe you smell differently today... Once you settle in with them today things should start to straighten out more quickly than yesterday...


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

Alfie is still being a little bugger but things are definitely moving forward with Eddie. He is the first one I've successfully been able to pick up without him wriggling away. I put him in my big hoodie pocket and went to the bathroom for an immersion session and he won't leave my hoodie! He's been cleaning himself and all sorts in there. I just need to be more patient with them I think


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Progress is different with each and every rat. And each will wind up with a unique personality. In part that's why the guide is somewhat vague in defining terms like progress. One rat is progressing towards becoming a cuddle buddy while the other is on his way to becoming an intrepid explorer. Basically you see and feel the changes your rats go through as fear is replaced with curiosity and then with genuine affection. Oddly you can wind up with perfectly bonded rats that love you but still don't cuddle.. 

Every immersion is a little bit different. Have fun with it, enjoy getting to know your new furry friends, it's not a times event... As long as you feel things improving during the session, you are making progress and your next experience will build on what you have accomplished before. Some immersion experiences actually go very quickly with the right rat and the right human, they just push each other's buttons, lock onto the same page and take off from there. Sometimes it takes different personalities time to jell and other times the rat has had bad experiences with humans before you get them and you have to do lots of remedial work before you can even get to any level of understanding. But it's an organic process that just works because for reason that rats are who they are and humans are who we are it almost has to work... Add water sun and soil and a seed turns into a plant. It happened for millions of years before anyone ever gave it any thought. Likewise rats have bonded with each other long before their association with humans. In essence you are replacing one of the rats in the equation. And I think that was one of the first things I learned from Fuzzy Rat... she never really saw herself as different from the other members in her family. Perhaps there were big people and little people in her mind, but overall she expected to relate to and communicate with everyone.

Some folks debate whether rats see humans as other rats... perhaps, perhaps not... but when humans act and respond in ways they can understand it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to them.

Relax, enjoy have fun and keep moving forward.. you are doing just fine.


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

Is having them chill in my pocket a good thing to do? Once I finally manage to get them out of their cage I put them in my hoodie pocket. Even when I'm sat down in my immersion area they just don't want to budge out of there and when they do, they run straight back when they get scared. I've heard them cleaning themselves in there and such so I assume they're comfortable. Would it count towards immersion doing this every day and just talking to and stroking them in my pocket?

If it is going to improve our relationship then I'll gladly do it. And it's a win win situation for me as I can get my university work done on my computer whilst they chill in my pocket!


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## 2ratshack (Sep 13, 2014)

If they won't eat directly from your hand, try feeding them off of a spoon. I would suggest plain yogurt or baby food. It should make them a little more comfortable having some distance between your hand and their food.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Chilling in your pocket is fine, pet them talk to them whatever it takes to make them comfy around you... you are still engaging them. Their behavior tends to indicate that they have been mishandled or neglected before you got them... they are afraid, not necessarily of you, but of the world in general... They will hide in your pocket or a corner or anywhere else, but they will hide... 

But they are eventually going to have to come out of your pocket and move around you and explore and come back to you. They may still have panic attacks, so the immersion area is a good place to be when you get to that point, it saves on moving furniture to recover your rats. They won't stay in your pocket forever...

Best luck.


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## Coconut (Mar 16, 2014)

I hope it's okay for me to keep bumping this as my immersion continues! Someone let me know if not. 

So the past few days I've been taking my boys into the bathroom since there isn't much they can hide behind. And it's easier to clean up after them.  I think they're improving, but they're still skittish and nervous. It's really strange, they seem scared of me but when they get scared they hide in between my legs and behind me, or even up my trousers or down my top! They're now freely exploring me, and occasionally flinch when I move. Is sitting still the best thing to do to begin with? I've been sitting still for at least ten minutes and they tend to be more up for having a sniff of me if I stay still. They have been climbing on to my shoulders too and having a good dig in my hair. They've sniffed my face now too.  They still like to hide in each other in the corners of the room, I hope they aren't scared of me.  But they are now taking treats from me. This rarely happens but it's a good place to start!

So basically they're getting better around me but they're still nervous and seem scared of me. What should my next move be? Thanks in advance for the advice!


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