# Inexperienced Rattie owner - confusing behaviour.



## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

Hello! So, I am new to the word of Rats as pets, but what I don't know through extensive research can't be worth knowing. Putting it all in to practice is another matter, though! I did what all animal lovers know not to do, no matter how hard it is; I 'rescued' a pair of male Dumbos from an awful pet shop where they were very obviously being mishandled, were underweight and were housed in an aquariam with a heat lamp that was about 40cm cubed. The pet shop woman picked them up by their tales, dumped them in a cardboard box which she sealed with no air holes, and handed them over. I know, I know, I shouldn't have given her my custom - but it's easier said then done. Have since reported the pet shop and they are under investigation - anyway, the rat's back story is important because it obviouslt affects their temperament initially, and their responsiveness to trust training. Toby is the most outgoing when it comes to human contact, but he is the most timid when it comes to being a rat and exploring. Conversely, Markus is terrified of humans but a daredevil gymnast that loves jumping, climbing, and splashing around in water. Again, I think their personalities may be important in figuring my issue out, which is - after three weeks of doing all the right things my rats have still not bonded with me. Trust training with liquid food is fine, they will come up to the spoon when it is right in front of my face (I lay on my front to be at eye level a lot of the time), they will lick custard and ygurt from my finger, they accept little bits of chicken and popcorn from my hands, and they will sniff me, climb in my hair and investigate my hand when I put it in the cage. Try and pet them, though, and they get seriously p'eed off. Toby will allow me to stroke him for maybe 30 seconds before backing his body up, doing a U turn and running off. During the petting he clamps his body down, pushes his face down and looks mighty irritated. Markus won't let me touch him full stop, he snakes his tail at me if my hand approaches him. But like I say, he is more than happy to come to my hand. Part of me thinks they're just being contrary - they're chuffed with treats, but don't want to interact. I haven't tried picking them up yet, purely because I didn't think it was fair to after their horrible time at the pet shop - I have tried to be respectful of the fact that they're little beings in their own right, and not a toy; so if they don't want to be picked up, that's ok. But I'd at least like to get to the point where they don't detest me petting them and are not terrified of my every movement. Toby boggled four days in a row, about a week ago, each time directly after trust training. He would have some custard, let me scratch behind his ear then get snuggled up to markus and boggle. However, in the last few days he has been subdued, moody, resentful of any attention and aggressive with Markus. Another problem is that 'play fighting' has gotten more regular - as in all the time, and the squeeks have progressed from small, high pitched, short, squeeks to a more throaty, mid volume, yelp/squeek. It seems to be Toby bullying markus, and I'm wondering if that might be delaying Markus' trust developing with me also. No blood though or injuries that I can see. So now that I've rambled on, what I need are some tips on pushing trust training and bonding past the plateau we seem to have reached. Also, I am worried about Toby, his fur seems mussed a lot, he sleeps most of the time and is markedly more withdrawn. No sneezing, none of the dreaded red stuff around his eyes/nose, he's eating and drinking - should I take him to the vet and put him through the necessary stress, or does it sound like I am over-reacting? Respectfully, before anyone points out the obvious, I already know that rescuing two guys from a pet shop was not a smart move for an inexperienced first timer!  Please help, feeling pretty frustrated.


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## Eden10 (Aug 11, 2012)

Will be interested to see what others respond to this...I'm in the process of trust training my 2 boys aswell, having some sucess with my boy Gomez but his little brother, Fester is still very scared of me and altho is interested in the treats I bring, he doesn't want anything to do with me.I know the number one thing to remember is PATIENCE...it does get frustrating, but the results will be worth it in the end! We must be pretty scary looking to our ratties lol.


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Im pro gentle forced handling....be it hanging with them in a bathtub or letting them hang out in a hoodie between your shirt and the zipped sweatshirt. Its never failed me, even with a 9 month old lab rat.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

It sounds like they're fighting over who the alpha is, but more importantly: Are they fighting when Markus comes near you/you come near Markus? When do they fight? If Toby has claimed you as being his territory (weird sounding, I know) then he may be annoyed when Markus is near you. I'm assuming they're both intact, since pet stores don't usually neuter their animals.


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## Eden10 (Aug 11, 2012)

gal5150 your method is great! I had already been using the hood method with Gomez but Fester refused to come near me even when I sat in the bathtub with both boys. Gomez was exploring and climbing on me, Fester just cowered in the corner looking for an escape. So I just went ahead and picked him up [he squeaked...not happy] and put him in my sweater and after a couple mins he was warming up to me  I guess some ratties just need a push! Maybe this will work with your boys Isobella?


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

I think the gentle forced socialisation is definitely the next step, they are comfortable with everything else so it's just being close to me that's a problem for them, I thought they just didn't like me. I think that's why it's so confusing, they no longer resemble timid or scared rats so I'm subconsciously expecting them to be totally fine with me. It obviously doesn't work like that. Perhaps because they were in such a rough state when I got them - poop stained, smelled so bad, fear pooped almost on the second, concealed their faces and hid their tails whenever there was a noise - that now they're shiny coated, twitchy nosed, adventurers, I assumed we were all done trust training?? Ok, so I put them inside a jumper or hoodie and just let them find their way out? This might work because their favourite thing to do is make tunnels in an old duvet. They have never once bit me or lunged, that I can determine - but I'm not sure what an aggressive use of the teeth looks like in comparison to a 'what are you?' nibble. Sometimes they approach my hand with their mouth open very slightly and I withdraw before they've got to me, just in case. But I am pretty scared of them biting me. gal5150, I read on another post which you replied to about you dealing with your fear of getting bit by your Guinea Pig - that's where I'm at, really scared to forcibly put them near my skin incase they bite, is it likely they'll freak out under my sweater and just clamp down?? Unlikelyfather - Neither have been fixed nope, don't know if this means anything but their testicles have been pretty pronounced over the past few days too. The pet shop couldn't tell me how old they are, and I was too inexperienced to estimate it but from what I've read I would guess that they've just come in to that teenage phase. I will never get rats from a store again, that's for sure - I don't even know if they're related or were just shoved together. I read that if they sleep together then they're fine, is that true? They snuggle up all the time. Will try forced socialisation now...scurred!


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

P.S. Yeah, now I think about it, 'fighting' (or acts of dominance) does happen when I've petted Toby - Markus begins power grooming him to the nth degree and it sounds like bloody murder...


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Isobella said:


> P.S. Yeah, now I think about it, 'fighting' (or acts of dominance) does happen when I've petted Toby - Markus begins power grooming him to the nth degree and it sounds like bloody murder...


Sounds like they're fighting over you. 

And if their testes have just become pronounced, their hormones could be kicking in to stoke those flames even more. 

Watch their behavior for the next few days and if they show no signs of letting up, or if it escalates, then consider neutering one of them to fix the balance (whichever rat is causing the most issue, is more unstable, etc --- it may not always be the rat you think it is, so watch closely for possessive behavior and make sure that the more aggressive seeming rat isn't just trying to correct the other rat's behavior/be alpha).


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

It's funny... You came here worried that your new boys didn't like you, only to find out they seem to be fighting over which one you belong to.


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

So it's not because Markus doesn't like a human smell being on his cagemate? Sometimes Markus looks at me and I am sure that he is putting some sort of a hex on me ahaha. Is it likely that my rats will just never be people-rats if they've remained unsocialised well in to their first year?

Neutering Q - if I get Toby neutered (he's the one that kicks Markus in the face to get to treats and most regularly power grooms) will he become relaxed? Will Markus then attempt to become Alpha, and Toby just let him? Or should I get both neutered? I am willing to do whatever is best for the both of them but have read that neutering is 'unfair'.

Is it normal to get Rats and worry about everything to do with them constantly??!! I feel like a new mum - it's bloody exhausting!  Thanks so much for your help.


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

I got bitten by Markus. I really adore Toby because he cranes around to look at you but really tries to suss the situation out before eventually legging it off. Markus though, saw my hand coming towards him and swung his head round. :'(

Also, booked them in at the vets, Toby has visible porphyrin this afternoon and with the excessive sleepiness, hardly eating and sneezing it doesn't look good. Wonder if this is why he now won't endure petting after such a good start. Really quite sad about it.


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

How do you pick them up, particularly the more anxious one? Do you just put them under your sweater and let them hang out there or do you interact with them?


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## jd882 (Sep 16, 2012)

Isobella said:


> Is it normal to get Rats and worry about everything to do with them constantly??!! I feel like a new mum - it's bloody exhausting!  Thanks so much for your help.


 This is exactly how I feel almost a week in! LOL This forum is super helpful to get the info you need when you need it from fellow rat lovers!


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## gal5150 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hey Isobella, I know we're PM'ing but I just saw your post where you reference my guinea pig fear! No, it's not likely at all that they'll bite. I will remind you that their nails are quite sharp, and I wouldn't want you to mistake their nails for teeth. So just be aware that if you feel a pinch it's most likely nails!Eden, stoked your having success with the "I'm just going to love you" method. The more experiences that Fester has with you being confident, and him NOT being eaten, the more you both will trust each other!


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

It's entirely normal to worry yourself ridiculous.

As for neutering, kicking in the face is a bit extreme and is behavior that you want to watch for. There's a really good (in my opinion) guide about neutering and it may help you figure out which male is the one to neuter:

http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails103.html


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks for the link, it has helped a lot and has actually pushed me in to making a decision. On the following points I am going to get Markus neutered: 1) Both rats mount each other for 4+ hours continuously - it is relentless and neither tires of trying to assert dominance in this way. Toby gets to a point where he begins kicking and flipping but Markus won't back down. This 'bonk relay' (as it's so nicely put by my partner), becomes more and more aggressive with neither backing down. 2) Markus likes to power groom, but Toby's grooming seems more social. Toby does power groom but it doesn't receive nearly as much protest from Markus as when the roles are reversed. But I don't think Toby's noise is from not liking to be submissive but from the fact that Markus is a nipper - he bites at everything and really chomps down on Toby. He uses his teeth seemingly before he uses his nose to figure out what something is. This morning he zoomed under the duvet, and nipped the back of my thigh - I was sat still as a statue so it wasn't out of fear. He is just bitey. 3) If neither will back down so it's up to me to choose an alpha before they kill one another then Toby is the smart choice. Toby is 1000% more affectionate, patient, thinks things out before reacting, hasn't bitten once, is pretty laid back and not highly strung in any way. Whereas Markus reminds me of my mother - unfathomable and as highly strung as they come. Toby wouldn't push his luck as the boss man but I feel like Markus would take liberties. So, as an experienced rat owner does this sound like the right decision? Also, the link mentions something really interesting about reactionary rats and smells, Markus is completely intolerant of noise and smells. If he doesn't have a frame of reference for a scent, movement or noise then he turns in to Arnie-Rat with paranoid tendencies. What a bafoon he is.


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## unlikelyfather (Sep 11, 2012)

Isobella said:


> Thanks for the link, it has helped a lot and has actually pushed me in to making a decision. On the following points I am going to get Markus neutered: 1) Both rats mount each other for 4+ hours continuously - it is relentless and neither tires of trying to assert dominance in this way. Toby gets to a point where he begins kicking and flipping but Markus won't back down. This 'bonk relay' (as it's so nicely put by my partner), becomes more and more aggressive with neither backing down. 2) Markus likes to power groom, but Toby's grooming seems more social. Toby does power groom but it doesn't receive nearly as much protest from Markus as when the roles are reversed. But I don't think Toby's noise is from not liking to be submissive but from the fact that Markus is a nipper - he bites at everything and really chomps down on Toby. He uses his teeth seemingly before he uses his nose to figure out what something is. This morning he zoomed under the duvet, and nipped the back of my thigh - I was sat still as a statue so it wasn't out of fear. He is just bitey. 3) If neither will back down so it's up to me to choose an alpha before they kill one another then Toby is the smart choice. Toby is 1000% more affectionate, patient, thinks things out before reacting, hasn't bitten once, is pretty laid back and not highly strung in any way. Whereas Markus reminds me of my mother - unfathomable and as highly strung as they come. Toby wouldn't push his luck as the boss man but I feel like Markus would take liberties. So, as an experienced rat owner does this sound like the right decision? Also, the link mentions something really interesting about reactionary rats and smells, Markus is completely intolerant of noise and smells. If he doesn't have a frame of reference for a scent, movement or noise then he turns in to Arnie-Rat with paranoid tendencies. What a bafoon he is.


It sounds to me like Markus is highly reactive and would benefit greatly from being neutered. Markus is a good choice, from the way that it sounds. 

That link has been very useful whenever neutering comes up, as it parses through various reasons to neuter and behaviors affected/unaffected by neutering.


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## Isobella (Sep 20, 2012)

I think I've mistaken their nails for teeth a couple of times! After FS last nightwhen I PM'd you, Toby boggled again which he hasn't done for a week or so. Looking to get Markus neutered and will continue with FS, and hopefully this is the route to a squishy rat who's confident and happy.  Thanks ever so much for your help.


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## Lynnthered (Aug 19, 2012)

God I could read your descriptions of rats and their behaviour all day Isobella! Hope the neutering truly helps your boys


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## never-sleep (Mar 3, 2012)

Personally, although many may not like my answer, I am all for getting animals from pet stores. Yes, a rescue would most likely be a better option but, pet store animals need love too. Many people will argue that by buying 1 rat from a pet store it opens another place for another rat. They are correct. Others will say by giving your business to the pet shops you are condoning the way their animals are treated. I don't believe that. Most people but from pet stores because they don't agree with the animals' treatment. I can understand not adding pet store rats to your currnet colony because of health concerns. 

That is responsible. 

But not buying them so you can "stick it to the man" is wrong. It won't make a difference to the pet shop you but the rat from. They could care less who you are or what you plan to do with those rats. It doesn't mean anything to them.

Just remember it means the world to those innocent creatures you took out of that situation.

Good luck with your boys. I hope all goes well : )


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