# Difference between Rattus rattus and Rattus norvergicus



## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

Hi everyone!

I've been so many time interested in how big are the differences between keeping _Rattus rattus_ and keeping_ Rattus norvergicus._

I've had _Rattus rattus_ years ago, I didn't know that people usually have the other species as pet so I kept that one and I was really happy with them. 

I can say, now that I have _Rattus norvergicus_, that there are several differences between them, but I can say that sometimes it comes with the individual personality of each rat.

The fact is that this difference not only comes for the species of the rat but also that the breed way for Rattus rattus usually is terrible, as they are just used for live food and never like pets.The parents show really wild behaviour so they learn from that even if they are really small and the generations that Rattus norvergicus has been in human contact is much more bigger than the other one.

Please, let me know what do you think about this.

_Rattus norvergicus_

Pros:
-Seems to have much more interest in learning
-Seems to be much more social 
-Get much more trust with humans

Cons:

-Males get too big 


Rattus rattus

cons:
They HATE light, the photophobia is really pronunced on this species, even with artificial light they seem to be terrified of it.
They hide anywhere, even if you spend hours and hours with them they usually try to hide from you

Pros:
It's like paying hard level, once you have kept Rattus rattus, Rattus norvergicus seems to be really adorable and easy to care.
You can see really wild behaviour


And I have a question too, would you know the species of this one? i would say that is Rattus rattus too but i'm not sure


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not aware of anyone breeding Rattus rattus for food. Generally the smaller rats that are bred for food are the African Soft fur rat. 

Although there was supposedly a green rattus, maintained by a single breeder about 100 years ago, of which there are black and white photos, I don't know of any color morphs other than the standard wild coat type existing anywhere currently. And to the best of my knowledge they are not being bred commercially for any purpose anywhere.

Your rat is a brown rat, a norvegicus...


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## Ruka (Dec 20, 2012)

That's a Norway Rat. Where did you find a roof rat for sale?


I know they are out there, but I can't see a more wild animal being bred as feeders, theres too much of a risk that the reptile would get injured..


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## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

That one is my friend's one. A supposedly norvergicus rat from a shop. 

I get the _Rattus rattus_ from a local illegal breeder, i denounced long time ago.


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## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

I misdo saying that, I think that that one is norvergicus just for there is not panda coloration in wild but i don't know, the guy was saying that he has a Rattus rattus too and did a photo, I wanted to show him he's wrong. 

I think it's impossible to get Rattus rattus legally. I had mine years ago, he was 3 weeks old when I bought it.


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## Ruka (Dec 20, 2012)

WhiteWidoW said:


> I misdo saying that, I think that that one is norvergicus just for there is not panda coloration in wild but i don't know, the guy was saying that he has a Rattus rattus too and did a photo, I wanted to show him he's wrong.
> 
> I think it's impossible to get Rattus rattus legally. I had mine years ago, he was 3 weeks old when I bought it.


The rat in the photo is a black hooded rat, the most common in the pet norway rat trade here.

Panda colouring, lol. No, they can be legally bought, or captured, and bred. Although it is not recommended. They don't tame down like the Norway and are really skittish.


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## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

I think that you are like feeling a bit offended for me, I'm not here to teach anything, I know I'm really new into this, I usually bred tarantulas and snakes but I have no idea of rats, I'm here to learn!!!! I don't think to laught at me improves anything, I thought that here the people respect each other...

I called it "Panda" because i saw that some people name it like that in webs and you understunded me right?  Well, it's like calling "husky" to the white and grey ones i think. You could call them AabbCCUuYy or whatever!!!! xD

Thanks for telling me the species of that one, I was just asking...


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## Ruka (Dec 20, 2012)

WhiteWidoW said:


> I think that you are like feeling a bit offended for me, I'm not here to teach anything, I know I'm really new into this, I usually bred tarantulas and snakes but I have no idea of rats, I'm here to learn!!!! I don't think to laught at me improves anything, I thought that here the people respect each other...
> 
> I called it "Panda" because i saw that some people name it like that in webs and you understunded me right?  Well, it's like calling "husky" to the white and grey ones i think. You could call them AabbCCUuYy or whatever!!!! xD
> 
> Thanks for telling me the species of that one, I was just asking...


I'm sorry, I meant no offense! I actualy meant lol as in, hey, that's kinda funny. It's a cute way of describing them though!

I honestly meant no offense.

I didn't mean to come across as rude.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I've never heard of rattus rattus being kept as pets on the whole at all before! Least not over here. I mean sure, people on this forum have had half wild half domesticated rats and someone even kept a wild pup and socialised him but... I don't understand what you mean about males getting too "big" as a con - I don't see how that's necessarily a negative?


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## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh, you're right, that could be relative but I can't think any other con about them & I saw that panda big male rat next to a chihuahua and I thought like Wow...

I'm going to try to search my Rattus rattus photos and scan it. It was adorable too 


Sorry Ruka, I misunderstand your words,


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Ratclaws, Actually rattus was first domesticated in Great Britain around the turn of the last century. There was even a green morph. Early rat shows had categories for both rattus and norvegicus. And if history were different, the rattus might have actually had a small heard start in popularity. It was in fact a smaller and less aggressive species.

Around the time of WWI GB seemed to get preoccupied by more pressing matters and the rat fancy took a back seat but by then some norvegicus had already been bred for medical science based on an albino found in a cemetery and had become established outside the fancy in captivity and were being commercially maintained. Hobbies come and go, but commerce goes on forever.

While the humans were off killing each other, the rats were having a war of their own and the norvegicus pretty much exterminated the rattus in GB. So when the fancy recovered, there were very few rattus still around in captivity or in the wild anywhere in GB. I believe that the category for rattus was dropped from rat shows in the 1920's and there are supposedly only two very minor colonies of rattus on outlying islands anywhere in the UK now.

HOWEVER, there is a museum and I believe a Zoo in the UK that has preserved a colony each, most likely from the early domestic stock that they will either sell or accept donations for rattus pups by interested fanciers.

Several years ago, a UK rat fancier obtained some rattus from the museum colonies and tried to engineer a come back for them in the hobby. His breeding efforts were unsuccessful, likely because the rats that have been bred from a few captive specimens for over 100 years are already pretty genetically threadbare.

As to other captive populations, there is a temple in India that has thousands of human tolerant and friendly rattus all living together mooching snacks off of tourists.

To my knowledge there are no captive rattus populations in the US. The species still has a strong foothold in tropical areas where norvegicus can't get at them due to the warm climate.

There are some vids on YouTube of people that own pet rattus they found and raised from pups including one where a lady has a rattus and norvegicus playing on the floor with her at the same time.

To be very fair to the rattus, because it drinks very little water and can tolerate hot temps it actually spread much faster aboard wooden sailing ships than it's big fat high needs cousin. Because it was smaller and less aggressive it got the first toe hold in the fancy. But because the norvegicus was so able to morph into a rainbow of colors adapt a very civilized disposition, became the tasty meal for herps, and became the scientific standard model, not to mention it exterminated it's wild competition in GB, the rattus is now only a footnote in the fancy.

I suspect ship rats will make a come back as more tropical areas urbanize and become more affluent. A pet that needs air conditioning 24 x 7 x 365 isn't going to be as popular as a rat that can handle native temps like the good old roof rat. There are even parts of the US where rattus would fare better as a pet than norvegicus. But with all of the history we have shared with our brown rats, I doubt we will see the black rat make a come back within our lifetimes.

On the other hand as you are in the UK at least you have a place to get them from if you want one without setting traps in your attic.


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## Mball77 (Jul 3, 2013)

One big difference that stood out in my mind between the two is that wild Norway rats take care of their sick and elderly, Roof rats/ back rats or rattus have been observed to kick them out if not straight up kill the infirm. This has been observed in the temple in India as well. The older and sickly are chased away and skirt around the outside hoping the temple goers will feed them as well. The little I was able to find on "black rats" as pets is they are rarer, harder to socialize and more likely to fight each other. Norways seemed a bit more socialized right out of the wild as a pack animal. This is authors Anthony Barnett's opinion, I can't really say from personal experience. He may also be biased due to he worked lab rats for psychological studies. 

That albino was Jack Blacks rat wasn't it? The Queens rat catcher? I loved reading about him. 

I think having big males is great. They can't squeeze under my doors.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've taken my rats to the cemetery to play, there are darn few places for a rat to hide in a cemetery... but yes the first albino rat was supposedly caught in a cemetery and I believe it was by Jack Black.

Having a lab rat that was easy to distinguish from the wild population made good sense in case one of your rats escaped or a wild one snuck in. Perhaps is was this freak albino that tilted the future towards the norvegicus, who knows. For the first few decades of the hobby it was a real rat race. But I suppose, knowing just how intelligent and determined the brown rat is, for better or worse it wasn't going to get beat out by the old Musa majoris. 

Of the several wild canine species, most of our common dog breeds still come from the wolf, that's not to say dingoes, foxes and some of the other's can't be socialized, in fact some folks do keep them as pets. But with so many wonderful dog species already available starting from scratch with a pair of hyena just seems like a lot of work... I suppose the same can be said of re-domesticating the black rat.


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## WhiteWidoW (Aug 29, 2013)

I've learned a lot from this post, and I think that other people did it too. Thank you all, I have a lot to learn yet.

Mball77 you are right, having big males can be a plus. My Rattus rattus squeezed everywhere, one time I spent more than 3 hours searching it....


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

WhiteWidoW, 

If you are in a Central or northern South America, black rats, rattus are actually the more common species because they can take the hot temperatures.

In the US or UK they are almost non-existent in captivity. I truly believe that as the tropics urbanize more and small pets become more common for the general population that there is a good chance that rattus might actually become domesticated in Latin America and spread in the fancy from there. 

Norvegicus has a temperature limit of 84 degrees F or about 28 C. There are many places in the world where it can't be practically maintained without air conditioning. Rattus likes heat and would be a much better choice for people who live in hot places and can't afford AC. I know there are lots of humans living in places where norvegicus can't survive, but rattus could still give them a great rat owning experience even if it isn't as domesticated yet.


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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)




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## dr.zapp (Dec 24, 2012)

See if you can tell the difference? http://www.ratbehavior.org/QuizNorwayRatRoofRat.htm


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