# FORGET FRUSTRATING, we have BABIES!!



## mislis787

Ugh, the breeder I got my girls from gave me another pregnant rat.
Lola was exposed to boys before I brought her home. I know this because now I'm pretty sure she's pregnant and I have carefully watched all of my rats to make sure the boys and girls are never together.
I'm excited about Cleo's babies, but Lola is now only about 3, maybe 4 months old, and I consider that too young. Both my roommate and I have noticed a significant weight gain in the little girl. At first we thought it was simply regular dumbo fat, since dumbos seem to be a little chubbier than standard rats. But her "fat" is more in her midsection, rather than at the hips, like Zeke, my other dumbo. And her fat is firm, not loose and squishy like Zeke. Her sides are now sticking way out and she kinda wobbles. She also has no interest in climbing anymore, which is weird because she's got monkey embedded on her DNA, I swear. She seems restless, but she's still eating and drinking normally. By all acounts it sounds to me like she's about to pop any day now. 

I'm not mad about babies, really, I'm mad that this "breeder" never told me if she had been exposed. She did mention, however, that she thought she had missexed a baby from a previous litter, thinking it was a girl when it was really a boy. She took the rat out as soon as she found out, but it's very likely that Lola may have been impregnated. And if that's the case then Ashe, the little 5 week old, is likely at risk too.

So.......on another note, now that I've ranted.....anyone wanna line up for some possible rex dumbo babies? No clue who the father is, so I'm not really sure what we'll get, but Lola's a rex dumbo. 

Ya know what'd be funny, in an odd, ironic sort of way? If I was completely wrong and she was just fat. Can vets do ultrasounds on rats?


----------



## ladylady

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

I thought you had to be pretty inexperienced to miss sex rats.
Check out rats needed homes which is stickyed in this section


----------



## 2manyrats

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Yeah, that breeder doesn't sound very experienced.

When there have been litters around here, we inexperienced people would play "sort the babies" every day and make piles of the boys and girls. It makes me wonder if this breeder is interacting with the babies very much?


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Well, I can say that all three girls were extremely comfortable with hands reaching in and touching them, and are very social and sweet, so I'm sure they were handled well when young. 
I emailed the breeder last night, but she's at some Rodentfest in Pennsylvania and won't be back for a few more days. I'm expecting an apologetic email and an offer to pay any vet bills. And if she doesn't offer to pay any possible vet bills, I will request that she does >_< I just don't want this precious little girlie to die because someone "missexed" another baby.
In the event that all goes well (I'm praying and hoping like mad - I want HEALTHY babies!!) I plan to keep most of the babies. But I will be asking anyone who wants to adopt one to fill out a short application. I just have to write the dang application out first.
Upon checking Lola and Cleo this morning, Cleo doesn't look the slightest bit pregnant, but Lola looks like she swallowed a clementine whole. Lola's really fidgety and keeps moving around a lot, and she keeps rubbing her nose on things and with her hands. When I picked her up to try and soothe her, I could feel something like her stomach was twitching. Is this rat labor? I think she's having contractions. I don't think the poor baby has slept all night, but she hasn't licked the hair away from her nipples so I'm worried that's a sign that she's not going to care for the babies once they're born.
I am one hundred percent certain that Lola is pregnant. I've only had her a week, and she was much skinnier when I brought her home. >_< Unless she's got a weird fidgety blockage, she's got to be pregnant, right? What other options would there be?
My roommate's boyfriend (who has never bred or even owned rats) is trying to tell me she's not pregnant, she's just fat. Uh huh, yeah.


----------



## ladylady

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Hope for the best, plan for the worst


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Okay, I finally got my camera to work and I've got some very incriminating girlie photos. 
This sucks: I'm getting my wisdom teeth ripped out at 8am tomorrow morning and will be spending a few days recovering at my rat-hating parent's house. I have insisted that Lola come with me for support reasons, and in the event that Lola has the babies I think my sisters would be excited to see them. As much as I love and trust my roommates, I wanna keep her with me until she has them.
Okay, here we go:








Look at Lola's belly. Professional opinion: Pregnant or no?









































This one is Cleo's massive nest in her house, see her nose?:









The girlies reading manga with their "Uncle Mikey":









Peek a boo!









Many people have asked me about Cleo's coloring, so here it is:









That's all for now!
Tell me what ya'll think!

Cleo's belly is starting to show =D


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

aww, they are adorable! One thing I'm worrying about with Lola, and I'm not too read up on this so forgive me if I'm totally off, is megacolon D: So yeah I would take her to the vet if possible to rule that out personally. She looks to me like a high white marking but then again, I don't really know too much about that. Has she been useing the bathroom regularly?

I hope she's just pregnate. Poor little girl pregnate so young. That breeder isn't very responsible.


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Now that you mention it...
Yeah, she is high white, but the lady said she's never had a history of any of her rats having megacolon. She said the breeder that mentored her had bred megacolon out of her rats (if that's possible) and that's where she got her start, from those high white rats. Lola's mother was on site when I picked up the girls, she had just had a litter, and she looked perfectly healthy, as did two of Lola's littermates. I'm not going to rule it out, though. She is pooping normally, and I can't really tell if she's peeing or not because I have her on a kind of felt cloth blanket. She's also eating and drinking normally.

She's started cleaning the hair away from her nipples, so I'm pretty sure it is pregnancy. 

Incidentlly, what are the warning signs of megacolon? I'll probably look them up later tonight.


----------



## Rodere

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

I'd definately not be dealing with that breeder again. For it to happen once, ok.. but twice to the same person? I wonder if she is giving anyone else pregnant rats like she has you. Chances are it is likely. If there is any chance that they are pregnant, she should be warning people!

And if she can't even sex them right, or keep them seperated apparently, then I wouldn't trust her evaluation that there will be no megacolon. Sometimes you can take two rats who have had it 'bred' out of them, do a line breeding (like sibling to sibling) and it pop up. Or two rats who have never displayed it will have it in their offspring. Not enough is known about megacolon and what causes it to be absolutely certain it isn't in a family of high whites.


----------



## twitch

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

she's too old to have megacolon i think. it might be possible but i doubt it. it normally starts to show when the babies start to eat hard food (anything that isn't just momma's milk). and they can't poop. if she's pooping she's fine. i think it will kill them in under a week as well. but its been a while since i read about it so i could be wrong. it would be something to look into. the other signs of megacolon, other then not pooping that i'm sure of is the bloated belly. 

as for breeding megacolon out i'm not sure if that's completely possbile. its a recessive gene that carries it so it can hit some babies but not all. also, both parents would have to be a carrier and that gene can be carried on and so may not show up for many generations down the road. the gene responsbile for the high white is normally connected to the megacolon gene as well but not always. genes are tricky things to really manipulate and there is always room for error. to say that any one thing is for sure breed out of an animal 100% is risky. it could just be a dormant recessive carrier thingy. 

so based on all that i'm fairly sure she's pregnant too. i hope all goes well and i'm sorry about your breeder. she certainly doesn't sound like she really knows what she's doing. have you ever asked for contact info for the person that mentored to double check her story? mis-sexing a rat by the time they're old enough to be pregnant sounds very fishy to me. that's not something even a novice is likely to mix up by then.


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Yeah, I just read of some RARE incidents of megacolor happening in a much lesser degree to older rats (one lived on to be two, but needed VERY INTENSE special care). I think this is very rare and she is pooping normally so I bet it's pregnacy. But that being said, you should be aware that it can happen in her babies. I hope not, I really really hope NOT but you should be aware it can happen.

I wouldn't get any more rats from that breeder. If she keeps giveing out pregnate babies and can't even sex her rats correctly, she doesn't deserve to be breeding D:


----------



## 2manyrats

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Woah, with that belly you're gonna have babies soon!


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

*YAY!* After fussing over the possibilities of megacolon, I am pleased and VERY relieved to announce that Lola has constructed a BEAUTIFUL nest in the corner of her cage. Seriously, it's huge. I had a smile on my face the size of Lake Superior when I saw it.
With the megacolon case studies I've researched recently (recently meaning in the past hour) megacolon was found in only babies and all babies died by day 30 after birth. I only saw one case of a rat over that age having it, but it didn't really go into detail, it was just specifics on the diet it had to eat.
Yeah, Lola's pregnant. I'm 99.95% sure. I can clearly see her nipples and she's got a massive blanket nest in the corner. I think (hope) it'll be soon and hope even harder that everything goes the way that nature intended it. I'll still need some emotional support (thanks for all the advice, by the way. I really really really appreciate it, you guys). God, I'm gonna be a grammy soon! I'm only 19! What the heck?!
Yeah, needless to say, I'm not getting any more rats from her, and she will have no access to any of my babies. I at least know how to sex them correctly.
Which reminds me, ther' something I need to clear up: Lola wasn't the one missexed. There was a baby from Ashe's litter that this woman thought was a girl, but it was actually a boy whose googlies had dropped late, I guess. She removed the boy as soon as she noticed it, but it could have been days after he was able to impregnate somebody. I did warn her, though; she will likely have babies of her own soon.
I felt like a dumbass. When I first brought the girls home I was so impressed by how social they were than I refered a friend to her. Luckily I had time to revoke that reference before the friend contacted her. 
So megacolon is still a possibility (not very likely, from the looks of it) and I will have her babies checked. 
I think it'll be in the next couple days. =D That's not great because I'll be on pain pills for a few days >_<. I'll still take pictures though.


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

Sorry to worry you ^^;; I didn't mean to. Hope the birth goes smoothly and you have wonderful happy babies!


----------



## fallinstar

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

aww cute pics


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!!*

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=188532515

Okay, this is the site where I have more info on the girls and their pregnancies. Lola will likely have her babies by the beginning of next week, give or take a few days. I will post pictures on this myspace as soon as they are born. 
The breeder said that the missexed male was a russian ble standard, so babies will probably be russian blue, patchwork rexes are possible, likely dumbos.
There's an adoption application on the site, under a blog title "Adoption Application!!" I won't be accepting applications before a baby is born, but you're more than welcome to add me on your friend list or send me a message.
Thanks!


----------



## mislis787

*Re: Frustrating, it's so frustrating!! (WE HAVE BABIES!*

MEGACOLON BE DAMNED!!!

=D Lola had eleven beautiful babies around 4:30 this morning, and all 11 of them survived the night!








This is Lola's "Mom, just get them _out!_" pose =)























































Lola's such a good mommy. She went right to work doing everything she's supposed to do. I gave her some chicken (her favorite food) and scrambled eggs this morning, and I swear I've never seen her eat so fast! She's already chugged nearly half her waterbottle! =) She's sooooo tired, but not once has she stopped caring for her babies. I'm so proud. *sniff!*
What makes today even better is that today is my grandmother's 72nd birthday! She's staying with us for the week and I just had to wake her up this morning when I saw Lola had her babies. She doens't like rats much, but she did say that it was a pretty cool birthday present!

I can't wait until they start pigmenting!


----------



## 2manyrats

Congrats! That's awesome!

I'm pm-ing you my application, because I don't have a myspace account.


----------



## mislis787

Upon further inspection of the babies, it seems they are all dumbos. I'm only assuming, since I'm kinda jumping the gun and I lokoed at the little ear nubbins on their heads....they all look like their ears are pretty far down, so I'm assuming they're all dumbos. Anyway.....
I jumped the gun again and attempted to sex them....which proved to no avail. I did notice a difference between some of the rats, but as of yet I have no idea which is which. Hello, they aren't even 24 hours old yet!
I'm just getting too excited. I can tell Lola really wanted to get out of the cage for some time alone, but I heard not to take the mother out of the cage for at least 24 hours so she can bond with her babies. All the babies have full bellies (I love the little milk line!!) so in such an occasion would a few minutes of free range be okay? 
These little guys are gonna be so hard to give to other homes. I can already feel the hreatbreak. They've already survived this long, all eleven of them, so odds are they'll stay alive, right? 
And of course, still keeping an eye out for megacolon. The buck wasn't a high white, and didn't carry megacolon, so the babies are safe, right? I heard babies can only get it if both parents are carriers...


----------



## Strike2

How did you happen to wake up and tell the time of birth or were you already awake?


----------



## 2manyrats

You could wait to adopt out the babies until they're at least 5-6 weeks, so that you can make sure none of them have megacolon.

Also, http://www.afrma.org/sexing101.htm has some good photos of baby rats for sexing. It's definitely hard when they're that young!

Also, you can count the eye color, because you can tell which ones are going to have dark, ruby, or light eyes.


----------



## mislis787

Strike2 said:


> How did you happen to wake up and tell the time of birth or were you already awake?


I was awake around 4:15 and she hadn't had them yet. I got up to get a pain pill for my jaw, watched TV for about half an hour and found babies around 4:45, so I assumed she had them all some time in the middle. There were 11 babies at 4:45, and she hasn't had any more since.


But I'm concerned now.
I'm worried that Lola might not be caring for her babies after all. They all have full bellies, I can see the white milk line, butI just went downstairs to check on her and she covered them up completely with the bedding from her cage! And she didn't seem to care when I was counting them, I even turned some of them on their sides and she didn't do anything. She's stepped on them a couple of times and they've squeeked at her, but nothing else. I'm gonna keep an eye on her in the next few hours to make sure she's feeding them, and thinking of maybe putting Cleo in with her tonight if Lola doesn't feed them.....or am I just paranoid? Lola was doing just fine a few hours ago....should I be worried??


----------



## mislis787

2manyrats said:


> You could wait to adopt out the babies until they're at least 5-6 weeks, so that you can make sure none of them have megacolon.
> 
> Also, http://www.afrma.org/sexing101.htm has some good photos of baby rats for sexing. It's definitely hard when they're that young!
> 
> Also, you can count the eye color, because you can tell which ones are going to have dark, ruby, or light eyes.


And of course, babies won't be adopted out until they're 5 weeks. That's a given. 
They all seem to have dark eyes. Like a blue color.


----------



## 2manyrats

Yeah, I just read some of the breeding policies of the various rat organizations (realizing that I don't know what actual policy is), and they said a minimum of 6 weeks. Around here the pet stores separate them at 3 weeks, plus many of the people I know who have had litters have separated them at 3 weeks. Those rats have been fine, but I can't imagine having several extra weeks with mom would hurt, since they'd have the chance to get more antibodies, etc.

Anyways, I've witnessed four births and have played with the babies every day from each litter, so I'm relatively familiar with the process. All of the moms covered their babies up completely (for warmth & protection, so the mom can leave for a bit), like you described, and stepped on the babies repeatedly. Stepping on them doesn't appear to hurt them.

Also, moms won't get upset at familiar people poking around at their babies. It's good that she's not nipping at you! It means she trusts you.  She'd probably nip anyone else that doesn't have a history of handling her.

As long as the babies have milk bellies and are snuggled up with the rest of the babies, everything's good. No worries.


----------



## mislis787

*WHEW* Thanks sooo much!


----------



## fallinstar

awww so cute!


----------



## mislis787

NOT AGAIN?!
I just got a PM from someone who may have a sister rat from this breeder! And we have reason to believe that this sister rat is ALSO pregnant!
This has to be stopped.
If you (the person reading this) or anyone you know has adopted a rat from a girl named Nikki from Tiny Toes Rattery, particularly an oddeye or masked rex dumbo, email her at once and take your rats to a vet to get checked. I may be assuming too much, but it is likely that any rats in question are pregnant. When I went to pick up the girls I bought from her that day, all the girls were kept in the same cage. It's safe to say that if one of them is pregnant, the others likely will be too.
If anyone needs help finding homes, we should all work together.


----------



## bread_head

Awww, beautiful bubs. Mum is gorgeous too 
This 'breeder' sounds a bit dodgy though.


----------



## yonksgirl

That was me that PMed you.... I have a Dumbo from her....I got Ellie from her at the PA expo I really hope that she is no preggers not because I would mind babies I just think she is too young. She really is a sweet rat. I got two does off her that day My other one Tink is way too young to be preggers she is the smallest rat I have ever had. As soon as I get my friend up here I will post pics (my camera is acting up)


----------



## fallinstar

this breeder does sound very dodgy indeed!


----------



## mislis787

yonksgirl said:


> That was me that PMed you.... I have a Dumbo from her....I got Ellie from her at the PA expo I really hope that she is no preggers not because I would mind babies I just think she is too young. She really is a sweet rat. I got two does off her that day My other one Tink is way too young to be preggers she is the smallest rat I have ever had. As soon as I get my friend up here I will post pics (my camera is acting up)


It sounds like you got your girlies form the same 2 litters I got mine. I have a little tiny one just like yours, and we already assume that Lola and Ellie are sisters.....
Gr...people can be so irrisponsible someitmes >_< It's up to us to make the world a better place for little ratties <3


----------



## Night

Megacolon can pop up later in life. It's called late-onset megacolon. I had a boy, Atticus, who had it. He lived to just over a year old. Megacolon is NOT rare, and since the breeder you got these rats from (I have never liked TTR) is extremely shady, I doubt she cares at all about her lines or about "breeding out" megacolon. Keep an eye on those babies. They are very much at risk.

Also - can you possibly use a different bedding for the babies and momma? Newspaper really shouldn't be used at all - for any small animal. CareFresh Ultra would be a much better option.

What's mom being fed, by the way?


----------



## mislis787

Night said:


> Megacolon can pop up later in life. It's called late-onset megacolon. I had a boy, Atticus, who had it. He lived to just over a year old. Megacolon is NOT rare, and since the breeder you got these rats from (I have never liked TTR) is extremely shady, I doubt she cares at all about her lines or about "breeding out" megacolon. Keep an eye on those babies. They are very much at risk.
> 
> Also - can you possibly use a different bedding for the babies and momma? Newspaper really shouldn't be used at all - for any small animal. CareFresh Ultra would be a much better option.
> 
> What's mom being fed, by the way?


Hmmm....I'd have thought newspaper safer than most beddings. Can I ask why it's not safe? I'll give CareFresh a try, though.
Mom's eating a mixture of lab blocks (Nature's Farm or something like that, I don't have the brand name handy), dog chow and a rat/mouse mix I bought at Market Place pets. Occaisionally I give her some baked chicken and scrambled eggs (I hear they're good for protien). 

We know that the missexed male that impregnated Lola was a russian blue, and neither of his parents were high white because he was bred by that same shady breeder. Of course, she could be wrong, but I'm going to trust her one last time. Now, from what I've read, megacolon is only considered a high risk if both parents carry that specific gene, or something like that. Say Lola has megacolon (Please, God, no) but her baby-daddy doesn't. Would the babies still be at risk? Or what if Lola does not have it, but someone in her hertiage did....yeah, I'm just making hypothetical excuses. I understand the babies are likely at risk, but I want to know everything I can before I go making plans to hand them off to other owners. Is there any way a vet can check before suspisions arise?

Geez, I still know so little. I'm starting to feel like a bad mommy =(


On another (happier) note......








I love baby pictures =)

We have 4 girls and 7 boys (to my knowledge) and I will be double checking the sexes as they grow to make sure I'm right.
















Three of the boys and one girl are standard coat dumbos (dumbo ears and not-curly whiskers) and the rest are rex dumbos (majorly curly whiskers. I can only identify them by the whiskers at this point, if there is a different way, please let me know!)









This picture is a few days old, and the babies have already gotten bigger. Their colors are starting to come in and I can't see their milk lines as well (yes, I know they're being fed properly.) 









This one (a girl, unless I am sorely mistaken) is my favorite =3 She's the only all-darkish one. I'm thinking of keeping her myself. 









I love this one; it's the perfect Mother's Day picture! =)








See? Look how big they're getting!









This is my beautiful Zeke. I dunno if I've posted a recent pic of him at all, I don't think I have since it's SO hard to get a good shot of him. I just happened to one night, so here he is.







My cute little Zekerbeeker in all his shiny prettiness!!! =D *Melissa is overjoyed*

*ahem* Right. So that's all I've got now.


----------



## mislis787

PS: Thanks for that sexing site, 2manyrats. I found it very imformative. It turns out I did sex them right. We have 7 boys and 4 girls. =D


----------



## Rodere

I don't see any pictures 

And megacolon can occasionally be found in rats that don't have high white markings. It's more rare, but it could still happen. It's all in the genes.


----------



## mislis787

Rodere said:


> I don't see any pictures
> 
> And megacolon can occasionally be found in rats that don't have high white markings. It's more rare, but it could still happen. It's all in the genes.


Yeah, that picture thing sometimes happens. I'm looking at the pics right now, but if i were to refresh the page, or go to another page and then hit the back button, there'd be no pics. Computers frustrate me.

To fill your desire for baby pics =) You should go to www.myspace.com/girlrats and look at the profile pics. I've got them all loaded up there.


----------



## mislis787

And I just thought I'd add that myspace sucks. My profile for my rats just got a message froma spammer with the subject line "Hey Sexay!" That's......just pathetic.
I'm probably going to get slammed for that remark. =)


----------



## Night

If only one of the parents had MC, the babies can still get it. There really is no way to have a vet check for MC before symptoms appear. You'll definitely know if you have babies with early-onset MC, though. It looks as though they've swallowed a bowling ball. There is no cure for MC, and it's a 100% fatal disease. Rats affected with it, especially early-onset, should be euthanized. It's an extremely painful, uncomfortable, and debilitating disease.

Newspaper doesn't control odors, and when wet it can stain skin/fur easily. Plus, it can/will stick to the babies. CareFresh Ultra and shredded paper towels (not toilet paper!) is a much healthier, safer option.

As for food, all of those seed mixtures from pet stores are terrible. You really need to pay attention to what you feed your pets (not just your rats!). Simply because the bag says it's great for an animal, doesn't mean it is. Your best bet is to order some Harlan Teklad lab blocks, and to look into Suebee's Diet. Since she is lactating, she needs a lot of protein. You should feed her a little wet kitten/cat food every day. Wellness, Canidae, Innova, Solid Gold, and Wysong are among the best.

What brand of dog food are you giving momma?


----------



## 2manyrats

Ugh, to see the photos it's necessary to login to MySpace.

Gotta photobucket?


----------



## twitch

yep, those pics aren't working for me either. do you have photobucket? pics from there always seem to work well


----------



## mislis787

Hmmm........interesting. I emailed our "breeder" friend and asked for any megacolon history in Lola's line and the buck's line, and here's what I got:


Hi Melissa
I couldn't see the pics 
There has been absolutely no MC in this line, since I've had it. She is
not really "at risk" unless she is bred to a bicolor rat. These are
variegated/dalmatian lines, and completely risk free if bred to 
anything
other than bicolor/aurora rats. There will be no megacolon. The buck 
was a
younger half brother/cousin. I only had two little bucks from that 
litter,
one was a rex russian blue, the other a black standard coat. they were
simaliarly marked. Mock masked dumbos. Don't be afriad because they are
related, line breeding is actually really important for strengthing 
lines,
and improving. The only time you get real problems with inbreeding is 
if
there are real defects in the line. And these are defects that can/will
come from outcrosses too, you just have more likely chance of it 
cropping
up more quickly in line bred lines. These rats have no defects of 
anykind
so far, so don't worry. I almost wonder if that black buck didn't get 
her
pregnant. I wasn't here when it all went down, but I asked my friend 
about
it, and she said she may have gotten little babies mixed up, but not 
the
adult males with females. So it has to be one of those two little teeny
boys. Well, they aren't teeny anymore, but they were at one time 
Let me know if you have those pics posted in a photobucket account or
something, I can never see them in the e-mails, I dunno why.
Nikki



Uh huh. Tell me if that doesn't turn a few heads. Is it hogwash or is any of what she said true?


----------



## mislis787

And I will try tinypic for the pictures, I've had success with them in the past.


----------



## Night

twitch said:


> yep, those pics aren't working for me either. do you have photobucket? pics from there always seem to work well


If you copy/paste the picture link into your browser, you can see the pictures.


----------



## Night

Is Nikki offering to help you at all with the babies? Offering to take them back or anything? She seems so... completely uncaring and like there's no problem with the situation.


----------



## yonksgirl

After I had bought my Rat I heard her say some stuff that made me and my friend leary about her.....She said she had 100 rats and then a lady said something about snake food, Nikki Paused real long and said "yeah I would cull them before I sold them as snake food" Just the way she said it My friend said she thought that she did. Personally I do not believe in either practice. Granted I love my two girls I got from her, but I would never get a rat from her again!


----------



## mislis787

Ya know, even if she had offered to help with the babies, the only help I'd accept from her is her offering to pay vet bills. I'm not letting her have any of the babies, nor will I be getting any more rats from her. 
When I first told her about Lola being pregnant, she sounded rather surprised, but not really shocked or upset. She offered me a free rat too, she said specifically "If you want another rat to breed, the next one's on the house, as an apology." She treats the rats like little toys instead of the valued pets I find them to be. 
Add her to the "Do not call" list.


----------



## Night

Nikki *does* cull babies that aren't "pretty" enough, unfortunately. Though, I'm not sure what she does with them afterward


----------



## mislis787

Okay, let's try this again.























































Did it work?


----------



## mislis787

Yay! It worked!


----------



## Forensic

Aww, cutie babies.


----------



## Night

Adorable! I might be interested in adopting some


----------



## mislis787

Night said:


> Adorable! I might be interested in adopting some


That'd be awesome! Have to wait until June 20-something, though. I want to be absolutely sure that early-onset MC is not present before I start adopting them out.


----------



## deercreekrattery

For those of you that have never bred variegated or bi-color lines (or bred in general), you have no business commenting on lines or subjects you do not know about. MC is NOT a recessive gene. It is a DOMINANT gene that ONLY shows up when the bi-color gene is present. It is called the SOX-10 gene and acts just like the pearl gene does with mink. This gene only causes MC when a rat is genetically a bi-color. It never causes problems in a true variegated line. This gene can be present but does NOT cause problems when the bi-color gene is not present. Variegated rats are not bi-color, therefore NO MC. 
Nikki's lines are NOT bi-color lines, they are 100% variegated lines. She has never had any instances of MC with these lines. Nikki takes wonderful care of her rats (I have seen her rattery many times). She handles them a ton, uses high quality food and bedding, and loves each and every one of them. She keeps track of their health, temperment and lines. She has some incredible lines with very, very few issues. Did she make a mistake and missex a young buck who's testicles hadn't dropped? Yep. For anyone who has bred, this does happen, even to the best of us. It's called a mistake. Nikki is definitely 'old school' but is NOT shady in the least. She is right up front with her views and practices. She has absolutely nothing to hide. She breeds wonderful rats. 
For those who have never actually gotten rats from Nikki, you have no right to say anything about her rats. If you have not dealt with Nikki personally, you also have no right to pass judgement on her when she is not here to defend herself. You are getting half of the story. I will NOT sit here and let her name be drug through the mud because of a mistake. That is NOT cool.

On a lighter note, congrats on the kids. I'm sure you'll be thrilled with them. Those lines are great.

Robin
Deer Creek Rattery
www.deer-creek.us


----------



## fallinstar

aww so cute!


----------



## DonnaK

deercreekrattery said:


> For those of you that have never bred variegated or bi-color lines (or bred in general), you have no business commenting on lines or subjects you do not know about. MC is NOT a recessive gene. It is a DOMINANT gene that ONLY shows up when the bi-color gene is present. It is called the SOX-10 gene and acts just like the pearl gene does with mink. This gene only causes MC when a rat is genetically a bi-color. It never causes problems in a true variegated line. This gene can be present but does NOT cause problems when the bi-color gene is not present. Variegated rats are not bi-color, therefore NO MC.
> Nikki's lines are NOT bi-color lines, they are 100% variegated lines. She has never had any instances of MC with these lines. Nikki takes wonderful care of her rats (I have seen her rattery many times). She handles them a ton, uses high quality food and bedding, and loves each and every one of them. She keeps track of their health, temperment and lines. She has some incredible lines with very, very few issues. Did she make a mistake and missex a young buck who's testicles hadn't dropped? Yep. For anyone who has bred, this does happen, even to the best of us. It's called a mistake. Nikki is definitely 'old school' but is NOT shady in the least. She is right up front with her views and practices. She has absolutely nothing to hide. She breeds wonderful rats.
> For those who have never actually gotten rats from Nikki, you have no right to say anything about her rats. If you have not dealt with Nikki personally, you also have no right to pass judgement on her when she is not here to defend herself. You are getting half of the story. I will NOT sit here and let her name be drug through the mud because of a mistake. That is NOT cool.
> 
> On a lighter note, congrats on the kids. I'm sure you'll be thrilled with them. Those lines are great.
> 
> Robin
> Deer Creek Rattery
> www.deer-creek.us


Whilst it is always good to hear two sides to an argument, I would appreciate if you could keep your comments a little less aggressive. We are a friendly bunch at the Rat Forum and I'm sure the other members didn't mean to offend anybody with their comments. This post will be locked if it turns into a debate about an individual's care for their rats.

That said, welcome to the forums, Robin.


----------



## Night

deercreekrattery said:


> For those who have never actually gotten rats from Nikki, you have no right to say anything about her rats. If you have not dealt with Nikki personally, you also have no right to pass judgement on her when she is not here to defend herself. You are getting half of the story. I will NOT sit here and let her name be drug through the mud because of a mistake. That is NOT cool.


If she cared at all about the "mistake" she made, she would have taken the rat(s) back. Apparently she has adopted out pregnant rats before to Melissa, without telling her. 

Also, why are you congratulating and throwing out happy sayings like this is a fun situation? Because of Nikki, Melissa has to deal with a litter (possibly two), with absolutely no help (not that she'd take it, considering TTR). Is Nikki going to pay any vet bills? Offer to buy bedding? Offer food? No. Breeders need to realize when they start treating animals like stock, and that's when they stop. 

Per Melissa, Nikki wanted to give her another rat as an "apology." Not only does that make NO sense, it's unethical. 'Here, have another rat because I've caused you a couple unwanted litters.' Thanks! That fixes lots!

Yes, everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake is made that shows whether you're responsible or not. Treating the situation like a joke, as Nikki shows in her email, is not responsible at all, nor does it show any caring of the animals she places.


----------



## DonnaK

Night said:


> If she cared at all about the "mistake" she made, she would have taken the rat(s) back. Apparently she has adopted out pregnant rats before to Melissa, without telling her.
> 
> Also, why are you congratulating and throwing out happy sayings like this is a fun situation? Because of Nikki, Melissa has to deal with a litter (possibly two), with absolutely no help (not that she'd take it, considering TTR). Is Nikki going to pay any vet bills? Offer to buy bedding? Offer food? No. Breeders need to realize when they start treating animals like stock, and that's when they stop.
> 
> Per Melissa, Nikki wanted to give her another rat as an "apology." Not only does that make NO sense, it's unethical. 'Here, have another rat because I've caused you a couple unwanted litters.' Thanks! That fixes lots!
> 
> Yes, everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake is made that shows whether you're responsible or not. Treating the situation like a joke, as Nikki shows in her email, is not responsible at all, nor does it show any caring of the animals she places.


OK, I gave fair warning. Topic locked!


----------

