# New Home Sneezes?



## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi everyone, I just adopted 2 patchwork hairless boys yesterday. They are 6 weeks old. I didn't notice any sneezing when I went to pick them up (either from them or their brothers) but when I brought them home the dumbo eared boy started sneezing. He sneezes a lot and I notice small amounts of red stuff in the corner of his eye. His brother, a fancy eared rat, hasn't sneezed at all. I've heard rats sometimes get the new home sneezes, so maybe I'm just paranoid because my last rat died of URI. Is it typical for one rat to get the sneezes and another to not in a new setting? How long will it last and what can I do to make him more comfortable?


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Update: he's still sneezing today, still small amounts of red in the corner of one eye, and I notice sometimes when he sneezes there is a little on his nose as well. He is the shy boy of the two. He comes out to explore occasionally but prefers to hide in a warm blanket. The other boy is very adventurous, and I haven't heard him sneeze once. The sneezy boy is also the more hairless of the two, and a dumbo eared if that helps any. I'm wondering if maybe he just has a more nervous personality and that's why he's sneezing in response to a new place?


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

New home sneezes is very common there are alot of new smells to adjust to. It usually clears up in a few days.

You want to look for any other noises or breathing issues. if it doesn't improve within a week or gets worse I'd suggest heading to the vet.

Stress is quite a common cause for myco flairups in rats. So that could be part of the issue. 

On top of that I would go over any environmental issues that could be causing it.

What type of bedding are you using?
Are they in a cage or a tank?
if you are using fleece you should try to wash it in scent free sensitive formulas, I prefer ones made for babies. 
Are you smoking in the home?
Are you using any type of fragrance, air fresheners, candles, incense, etc....?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

New home sneezes start from when you pick them up to when you get them home,they last about a week...But the key is that they don't get worse after day one or two.... They stay the same or get better until they are gone.... A real RI gets worse until it's treated. In freeze frame they may look a lot alike, like allergies and the flu can look alike. The diagnosis is in how the symptoms progress. 

And yes, some rats get the new home sneezes while other's don't. It depends on what they were exposed to as small pups... Pups that were handled and let explore in a human home don't usually get the sneezes, while those from rat mills and commercial breeders almost always get them. It's sort of an allergy to the real world. Once the rat adjusts to the various forms of pollution in your home and to your skin dander and all of the strange bacteria living in your world he will usually be perfectly fine. I've also found that pups from real world rats tend to be better inoculated to the world such as pups from accidental litters. Rats that come from generations of mill rats or lab rats can have a tough go of the change... but they will typical weather the week like little troopers.

So if things are getting worse day to day, or hour by hour you want to see a vet, if things are the same or better wait about a week or a little longer. 

I know if this is your first time through it's a little scary... I remember our first time with a commercially farmed rat, she started sneezing pretty much on the way home... I called the store and was told it was nothing to worry about it, all of the rats from there did that... Still I worried, but I waited and low and behold it was gone in a week as promised.... 

If things don't get worse, it's watch and wait, if they do, see your vet.

Best luck.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi moonkissed, thanks for your reply! So are new home sneezes just small myco flair ups that clear on their own? What concerns me is the small amounts of the porphyrin on his nose and eye, but I've heard hairless sometimes produce more than regular rats? He is a nervous little guy so I think you're right -- stress is the likely culprit. What can I do to make him feel more relaxed?

To answer your questions...
-I use fleece bedding, and I change it every day and clean it multiple times a day by removing waste, airing out, etc. Airing out doesn't do much for ammonia but I figure changing it often keeps things smelling good.
-They are in a wire cage with plenty of ventilation, though I do regulate room temperature so it's not too hot or cold since they are hairless & sensitive to temp changes
-I use arm & hammer with baking soda detergent, which is probably pretty mild? 
-No smoking in the home
-No scented things in the home


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks Rat Daddy! That makes me feel a bit better. I'll keep a close eye on him just in case, but he's probably fine. I forgot to mention that I live in what my doctor tells me is the worst place on earth for people with allergies -- can rats sometimes be susceptible to the same kinds of grass/flower allergies as people? I adopted the rats in Vancouver, WA and brought them down to where I live in the Willamette Valley.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You know, when Bunny had her pups, we went out of our way to expose the pups to all kinds of things from the moment their eyes opened... so that they would be bomb proof when people adopted them... We even took them outside and let them scrounge around in the grass and dirt a little bit... So far none of the pups, including the two we kept have had any health issues or sensitivities of any kind... 

I have to assume that good breeders make a point of introducing their pups to the real world too... at least the indoor world... But it's not something you should expect from commercial breeders or pet shops. So I'd assume that rats from different backgrounds will be more likely to get the new home sneezes than others...


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Okay, that's good to know. I'm not sure what my breeder allows her pups to be exposed to before adopting them out, but you bring up a good point. She may have shielded them from pollens, allergens, and other outdoorsy smells. I hope it's not too late for my little one to get used to it though.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

No, it's not too late, like I've said, healthy rats adapt to almost everything... and most rats are actually pretty healthy.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Some rats are more sensitive and will have the new home sneezies. These sneezes are usually dry sounding, sharp and rapid. The red discharge called porphyrin is natural BUT if its there in the morning and cleaned up after his first good grooming that is fine. If the red stuff is sticking around all day then you might have an issue. IF the sneezes start sounding congested, he gets lethargic, isn't eating, drinking or playing much, if he has half-closed eyes, or any issues with his breathing (faster, laboured) or you heart a sound like an outboard motor, crackling etc...then you have a respiratory infection and your baby will need antibiotics/vet.


And yes all those allergens in the air can affect some rats.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi Lil Spaz. Thanks for the sneezing descriptions -- my boy's sneezes at this point are sharp and rapid. Sometimes the porphyrin is there, sometimes not. I'm noticing this morning he's sneezing a bit less than yesterday (so far) and no porphyrin at all. This rat is new to me, but it seems his personality is more reserved, and he's a nervous little thing! He likes to hide under things, cuddle up with his brother, etc. but he is eating and drinking fine. His body is nice and warm. Both boys are still adjusting to me & the house I think. They sometimes get spooked by normal noises (even the brave boy!).


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In some ways I was lucky (?) to adopt our first rats from a pet store that sold hundreds a week for many many years... Some of the staff had been there for years and had seen just about everything. And as 99.99% of the rats were sold as food they didn't panic over much.

When I called I'd speak to a certain person who was most experienced and usually she would start with..... "Don't worry, that's normal.." It was actually quite re-assuring. Or... "It's no big deal... you have (whatever) and you need (some cheap but effective remedy, that actually worked)" 

As much as I mostly dislike pet shops, in the old days they used to sometimes have long term and knowledgeable employees or owners that were a priceless resource before the internet. They had seen everything before, carried an extensive supply of medications and treatments and most of all were confident, calm and reassuring.

Naturally, when our baby developed the new home sneezes on the way home... I was very concerned... but after a 5 minute telephone call, I felt reassured by how calm and confident the lady was and when she said she had seen it hundreds of times and it almost always happened, I had the courage to wait a week... And like she said, it got better every day until it was gone... 

I could easily see where a vet would charge for a visit and prescribe unnecessary antibiotics.. (just in case). Our second rat actually started sneezing as we were at the cash register paying for her... and the same lady was there and she calmly said "See, I told you... it's perfectly normal." And again within a week it was gone. 

To be honest, I don't know how many vet visits those people saved me, with reassurances and quick fixes, mostly for non life threatening issues, that worked a treat.

As much as the idea of selling hundreds of rats a week as food is still more than a little disturbing, when the old time pet shops folded we lost a valuable resource too. The kids that work at the big box chain stores are generally clueless. I mean most don't work at the same place for more than a few months, know very little and don't stay around to learn much... The relatively few vets that see rats are a valuable resource, at least the better ones are, but $80.00 is a big price tag for a little reassurance. And frankly, although there's lots of good advise here, it's not like having an actual human being standing in front of you being confident and reassuring, looking at your rat and saying "I've seen that hundreds of times."

In some ways pet shops were bad places for animals, in other ways it's a resource lost.

Lilspaz68 did a great job of describing the new home sneezes, better than I could do. And it sounds like your rat is already getting better, but it's entirely normal to be a concerned rat parent. And sometimes, a new rat might actually have a URI. For now, watch and wait... if it gets worse see a vet, if not spend the money you would otherwise spend on a vet on something fun for your rats.

As an aside, I'm a bit concerned about your breeder... both the new home sneezes and the fact that your rat is uncommonly shy tells me that your rats weren't handled or at least handled much and most likely weren't pre-socialized. I expect both new home sneezes and shyness from pet shop or feeder bin rats, but might expect more from an ethical breeder. Our breeder doesn't handle his pups much, (nor does he pretend to) but even with what little handling they get, they don't come with new home sneezes and they aren't too afraid of people or unusually shy. I mean new rats are always out of their element and they are not like rats you have worked with and might be a little shy or tweaky... but in combination with the sneezes, it just doesn't seem right...


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

I agree with you, Rat Daddy. I am glad to have the internet and places like the rat forum available as resources to answer questions, but not being physically there can make advice givers sort of alarmist -- I'd personally rather avoid vet visits, if only because they can be so stressful to the animal (and the cost for an exotic to be seen ain't cheap, either). But even if there can't be someone physically around who knows all about rats to say "everything's going to be okay," I have to say hearing advice from some of the forum veterans has to be the next best thing!

As for your thoughts about the breeder, I'm awfully conflicted about her too. While I love these boys, I don't think I'll be going to her again. She's AFRMA certified, which I know doesn't *mean* too much, but one of her rats got on their calendar this year. She is very knowledgable about genetics, and her rats are beautiful. I can tell she loves them very much and I believe she is committed to breeding healthy pets. However, she is quite young, not so good about communication (she always took a long time to answer my messages, but was always kind and answered all my questions when she did). I thought it was strange that she didn't really ask me any questions about myself, or how I planned to be housing, feeding the rats. I think (but I'm not totally sure) that she sometimes adopts out single rats even if the adopter doesn't have another rat in their home. When I went to pick up the boys she met me outside her apartment with the 6 brothers in a cardboard box. We sat out there for a while and I handled them all. No sneezing, no propheryn or anything like that. But I was surprised at how some of the rats nipped a little (thinking my hand was food). My boys did that a little at the beginning but have stopped now, and they're growing more relaxed with me touching & handling them by the day. She did say she was letting them go a couple days earlier than she normally does (I live far away and happened to be in the area). The boys didn't have visible testes when I brought them home 4 days ago and now they do. I agree with you it's kind of weird, but luckily the sneezes and shyness is only present in one of the boys, so maybe it's just his personality or that he was the runt of the litter or something. He likes cuddling and pocket riding. This was my first experience adopting pups from a breeder (previous rats were adopted from previous homes or were destined to be feeders), so it's been a learning curve for sure.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

If their testicles hadn't started to descend they were between 3-3.5 weeks old when you got them. That is almost 2 weeks before they should be removed from Mom and sisters.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Could it be that they'd started, but I just didn't notice? It seemed like they were really suddenly & drastically apparent on day 2. I've only had them 4 days total. When are the testes supposed to descend?


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Lil spaz, after doing some research I think you're totally right! These guys can't be 6 weeks old... they're much too small! I've contacted the breeder, asking for their birthday. I'm very confused. When I contacted her initially, she said her litter would be ready to go (sized, aged, weaned, etc.) a day or two after labor day. I was passing through town the day before labor day and she said she could make an exception. I assumed the babies would be 5.5 weeks old at least! I'll take some pictures of the boys and post them here.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Only have 10 minutes to edit posts so sorry to spam like this. Here are the pictures.

Here is boy 1 (Dill) he's the one with the new home sneezes. I'm sorry the pic is sideways. It is right side up on my computer and I don't know how to fix it on here! Should still give you a good idea of their sizes.








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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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Here is rat 2 (Louie) my brave boy


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

maybe 4 weeks now? Poor laddies.  Force weaning babies at a young age is not good for them health-wise and psychologically. My rescue boys get removed or left in family cage and mom and sisters moved at 5-5.5 weeks of age. Then the boys usually don't get adopted out until a week later. Force weaning at such a young age is something feeder breeders do. Often these breeders breed more saleable rats like nakies for the pet people and the plainer rats from the litter get tossed in the feeder bins. . I wouldn't advise going to her again.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Anyone who's ever read more than two of my posts knows I'm the oddball around here... I do things differently... so I do adopt rats younger than is recommended, BUT I know that they are young and that they need special care and attention. I've even gone as far as to move onto an inflatable mattress and let a young pup sleep next to me, so it wouldn't be alone at night. Younger pups might not need mom, but for sure they need around the clock care and companionship in order to grow up healthy and competent. I handle six week old pups very differently than I would handle three week old pups... After about 5 to 6 weeks rat pups require a substantially lower amount of emotional support. It's one thing to sell a rat at 3 weeks old, and quite another to tell someone it's 5 or 6 weeks old... That's just tempting fate. I might add that 3 week olds need a more enhanced diet than 6 week olds if mom isn't going to be around to supplement... 

Certain rules, needn't be set in stone, but if people intend to break them, they need to know what they are getting into and how much effort and time it takes to do things well if they intend to do things "differently". This is likely one of those cases where other people shouldn't do some of the things we do...

I might add that all of the rats we had that developed new home sneezes were three weeks old at the time.... so Lilspaz's timeline is about spot on.

But if your pups are as young as we think they are, at least you know what you have to do... enrich their diet and pretty much attach them to yourself for the next few weeks. Young pups should pretty much never be left alone. Because you adopted two I think you can cut yourself a little slack because they have each other, but they still need to feel protected by a mother (or father) figure as much as possible.

Raising young pups takes more effort and commitment, but it can be very rewarding and it can help you to develop a very special bond with the pups. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, now that you know what you have gotten into.

Best luck.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks for the support and info, guys! To be fair, she didn't tell me they were 6 weeks old, only that they were 2-3 days from being "ready" for new homes. I'd spoken to enough breeders to know that 6 weeks is this threshold, so I assumed this is what she meant. I'm glad I know what I'm dealing with now and that I'm mostly at home these days. I don't start school for another 2 weeks, which gives me plenty of time to hang out with these guys (and I should say they seem to be adjusting quite well -- no more nipping, less nervous by the day). Rat Daddy, what kinds of dietary supplements do the boys need as 3-4 week olds in comparison to 6-week?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would have said 4 weeks too. Baby rats need to say with for mom or male siblings until 6 weeks of age or more. It is very important that they M stay with mom and their siblings until at the very least 5 weeks of age- no amount of human companionship can replace that.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Give your babies some egg, something like 1/8 egg 3-4 times a week, or less every day. You can use chicken breast instead of egg. For baby rats a little oyster or beef liver once a week is thought to be really good- not more as very high in vitamin A.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm sorry you had to deal with a bad breeder  Some breeders are good and others are just BYBs  It sucks.

I always suggest when someone is seeking a breeder to try and get to know them just as much as they should be getting to know you. Don't be afraid to ask questions, if they can't be open/honest then you know they are not great.



> She's AFRMA certified, which I know doesn't *mean* too much,


It could mean absolutely nothing really. There are either those with memberships which means you have to show your rats, unless they live around Cali or Texas it is unlikely as there are only shows there right now. And then there is just having your rattery listed, which means you just pay yearly dues. They even say on their site: "*AFRMA takes no responsibility for the members listed on this page."


*


> what kinds of dietary supplements do the boys need as 3-4 week olds in comparison to 6-week?


Nothing really. By 3 weeks old baby rats have begun eating solid foods on their own for the most part and by 4 weeks old they are usually weaned. So you can just give them normal foods that you would feed a 6 week old. If you notice them not eating block food you can crumble it up into smaller pieces or even mix it with other stuff to get them more interested but they should be fine.

Just give them higher protein foods the same you would a 6 week old. I prefer babies to get around 18% but up to 20% is ok. So it depends on what you are feeding them. Offer them lots of variety of veggies and such so they don't become picky.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks moonkissed, that's good advice. I'll take this experience with me next time I'm looking to adopt rats, and maybe get some recommendations from people first. 

My boys love the Oxbow, but have been branching out to peas and blueberries. I tried some scrambled egg with them this morning, but they weren't too interested in that! It could be they were full from romping around and eating block food all night. They're usually pretty sleepy in the AM. Pretty typical rat stuff. My last boy, Archie, used to hate mornings.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Young pups grow scary fast... from 3 to 6 weeks... so I up the calories, protein and even fats... or rather they do... I offer a variety and they tend to target those foods themselves... at six weeks, the pups tend to start backing off on the sweeter and fattier foods by themselves... but yes, they do tend to still target the proteins more until they get almost full grown. By feed, I typically mean "make available" So I don't withhold normal adult rat foods like blocks grains or veggies, I just mean I make foods like eggs, avacado, sweeter grain products and more fatty foods available. I start backing off on the not so good for you stuff at around 6 weeks and by two months to six months try for a leaner and more healthy diet... But then to be clear, we don't ever do an organic health food type diet. We also start training our rats and giving them a lot of activity to burn off those extra calories when they are young. Given choices rats tend to adjust their diet to their activity level and needs. I just make sure they have options available. For example at around six weeks old, I started throwing out left over egg, something that didn't happen when the pups were only 4 weeks old, but by six weeks old more of the veggies were disappearing every day... Rats tend to always like sweets, so those always need to be managed.

Some people are better than I am at predicting a rats needs, that's why I provide variety and see what gets eaten. Misty is a year and a half old and was starting to get pudgy despite eating a pretty lean diet, now that she has two young friends to chase around and play with she's more active, she eats more and more rich foods and she's actually looking more fit. She's actually choosing a diet very similar to her younger roommates, mostly because she's keeping up with them. When she was living with Cloud who was a senior citizen she more or less ate like Cloud and was pretty inactive like Cloud... Admittedly, this is the first time I've seen an older rat turn back the clock, but I'm not disappointed. 

I think that if you don't supplement your younger pups food you will not do any lasting harm, but in my humble opinion, they won't have as much energy and may not grow as quickly. Neither approach is likely to be wrong so this might be more of an issue of perception and preference... What we do works for us, what other people do works for them...

As to hand raising vs spending more time with mom... keep in mind we are shoulder rat trainers, so our experience may or may not apply to you... We kept two pups from our accidental litter... Spot is our only boy and he hasn't been allowed to really frolic with the girls since he was 5 weeks old... VERY supervised visits are done every day so he has other rats to "talk to" and he often hangs out on the girls cage and can contact them through the bars... but overall he's been human raised, while his sister Lucky is still with mom and her great great aunt Misty... When working outdoors with Spot and Lucky... it's like day and night... Lucky is very clingy and tweaky, she had her mom, so we paid a lot more attention to Spot, pretty much Lucky's mom and Misty do much of the parenting... Spot on the other hand wants go get down onto the ground outdoors and explore, he likes to chase us around, he enthusiastically walks at heel and last night I took him to the soccer field and let him explore under the bleachers pretty much on his own. He was a dream to work with.... " I just laid down on the astro turf (where I could see him) and called out commands to him occasionally... "Spot, don't go into the road..." done, he turned around on a dime... "Here Spot" and he scurried right back to me... He seriously didn't like to be up on the bleachers in the dark... but on the ground it was like working with a radio controlled rat... That's the kind of bond, rat trainers dream of... And you just don't get it as often with rats you don't intensively work with young or rather it takes a lot longer to achieve this kind of level of competence... I took Bunny (adopted at 8 weeks) for a walk the other day and we were out for a couple of hours... she didn't ask to go to the ground, climbed up on me when I put her down and even peed on me, rather than asking to go down to the ground. It was night time, and she's a lot better in daylight... but you get the idea... Maybe Spot had the best of both worlds.. he had his mom for almost 6 weeks and he had extensive human handling and training at the same time... This might be optimal, but it's also something that's usually impossible to do unless you breed your own rats, and I'd prefer not to do that again. All in all, the rats we hand raised young, have socialized well with other rats, they have become well bonded and friendly with humans, they haven't had any unusual health problems and for the most part, they became very competent and confident adults... The older rats we adopted took longer to train, and the only adult rat we adopted as an adult washed out of the program in spectacular fashion... She was still a great rat, but she all but had a complete nervous breakdown when we tried to ease her into the lifestyle.


Photos taken seconds apart...














Amelia rooted in the tree was adopted at 7 to 9 months old... Fuzzy Rat adopted at 3 weeks old exploring the grass and posing for pics... note she already had large and multiple tumors at the time and was over two years old... still confident, competent and intrepid... 

Here's another photo of roommates, Fuzzy Rat and Amelia... Fuzzy Rat dragging herself around the ground exploring and Amelia holed up in the tree...









And Fuzzy Rat in her prime... hanging out tree top and walking at heel...














It's hard to imagine that she was damaged by being adopted at three weeks old and then hand raised... 

As to whether rats that are adopted young learn to properly socialize with rat friends... and given that Fuzzy Rat was always "special"...

Here's Misty who was adopted at 3-4 weeks with her current roomies, Bunny and lucky and her second roomie Cloud... She's on the left in both photos...














Before anyone freaks out... I'm not advocating that most people adopt rats at 3 weeks old. 6 week old rats are way more emotionally stable, and require a whole lot less work and commitment. Bunny and Lucky in the photo above left are mother and daughter and have a fine relationship too... with each other and with Misty... For most people and pups it is better to spend longer with their mom...

But to suggest that rats that are adopted young and hand raised by humans can't grow up to be well adjusted, outgoing and competent rats that socialize well with other rats is nonsense... 

Need more proof?

Max when we adopted her (just one meal away from becoming snake food)... her eyes were just barely opening...









And Max again at only 6 weeks old...














It might have been nice if your breeder told you how young your pups were... and it might have been better to wait a couple more weeks... but your boys are not at a permanent disadvantage because you adopted them young, if you put in the time and love, they can very well grow up to be exceptional rats, like the ones in the photos....

If anyone thinks these photos are misleading... Misty is still alive and making regular outdoor appearances, so anyone with doubts can meet her for themselves... she enjoys making new friends and she will be happy make your acquaintance. She's a top shelf, highly skilled true shoulder rat, our family rat and a very good friend of mine.

You sound like a person who cares a lot about your rats so, I think you will do perfectly fine with your little boys.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi Rat Daddy, thanks for sharing the pictures of your babies! I always love seeing pictures of other people's rats and I am AMAZED at how yours can be on their own in nature, climbing trees, exploring grass -- I think I remember a video you posted of Fuzzy Rat where she was swimming in a lake! Are you ever worried about hawks or predators? I used to take Archie with me on picnics and I always had to keep a vigilant eye... I suppose it's all in where you live. Where I am in OR we have lots of birds of prey. 

Thanks also for the advice on their diet. Everyone seems to say pump the babies with protein so I made some scrambled eggs which they weren't too sure about at first but eventually gobbled right up. I can see what you mean with the vegetables. I left out some peas and carrots which have not been a big hit today, but I'll make sure always to offer the veggies because it's a good habit. Archie I brought home when he was 1yr 3/4mo old and he was picky about food -- wouldn't touch most vegetables.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When you work with rats outdoors, if you aren't afraid, you won't stay sharp and bad things will happen. It's kind of like when you take your little kids outside, your head is on a swivel for danger all the time, for the most part you keep things well in hand, watch traffic, keep a distance from disturbed strangers, keep the kid from eating bad things, watch for stray dogs, etc... but you are always a little anxious until you get home, and then you can relax just a little.

As to hawks they circle you high and fast when they see your rat, they are easy to spot, owls hoover low and slow and are silent and invisible in the dark... they are your biggest flying danger. Fuzzy Rat could sense them, but I can't, so I always assume they are there. Fuzzy Rat took stupid looking risks, but most people don't realize she could hear a candy unwrapped on another level of the house, smell a crumb dropped on the floor two rooms away and identify humans she knew by sight from up to 100 feet away. She also had a trick where she could freeze a dog on the spot, with some kind of ultrasonic whistle... It was eerie to watch her do it. And she could use distant landmarks to navigate... Part of what gave her exceptional confidence were her exceptional abilities. She could simply do more stuff, because she was more capable than a lot of other rats.

We always like to make it look easy, but good shoulder rat handlers and trainers should always be at least a little afraid and very alert, when I meet a completely confident rat trainer, the first thing I know is that she hasn't been doing it for long and the second is that she won't be doing it for long... Great rats make it easy, but it's never safe.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

That makes sense. I suppose a hawk or an owl (if it were out during the day) would be pretty easy to spot. There must be a big level of trust training involved too, so the rat doesn't sense the bird and just take off somewhere as opposed to running to you for safety. I've heard some people use little rat harnesses and leashes.

Fuzzy Rat sounds like she was an amazing little creature! I always thought rats didn't have good eyesight? Or maybe only rats with red/ruby eyes.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

rlstine said:


> I always thought rats didn't have good eyesight? Or maybe only rats with red/ruby eyes.


Black eyed rats have bad vision, red eyed rats have a even worst vision. Scroll all the way down and look at the pics comparing human vision to a typical rat vision and to a red eyed rat vision. http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatVision.htm


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Also rat harnesses and leashes are pretty much useless as a rat can get out of them very easily. Plus it gives people a false sense of confidence that most likely will get their rat killed or lost. Taking rats outdoor is extremely risky, so many things can go wrong.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Although for some strange reason, black-ruby eyed rats tend to be more -confident in the dark than normal eyed rats... (maybe there's something beneficial to the red lenses in the dark? I mean I have yellow and orange lenses for low light, so maybe red helps in low light situations? Don't know) But for normal eyed rats they see best in bright daylight.

The term bad vision or blurry vision is a marginal choice of words... Rats have a greater depth of field than humans do... so in fact things far away and close can both be in focus at the same time. They can see things 'clearly' up close while not having to adjust their focus to see things in the distance 'clearly'.

The difference is that rats have low resolution vision... kind of like an old TV or VGA monitor as compared to our eyes that can see things in HD quality... This is different than their vision being out of focus like when those of us wear glasses, take our glasses off we can't see clearly. With my glasses I can appreciate HD, without them I everything is blurry. With low resolution vision some detail is doubtlessly lost. Like looking at a picture in a newspaper, but what is there is in focus... One might debate whether some rats have better vision... I know some have better senses of smell and hearing, and in humans the same is true... or you might argue that some rats learn to use their low resolution better than others... Fuzzy Rat spent most of her life going outdoors for hours every day when it was warm enough... She may just have learned to better identify people, places and distant objects through experience... She may have been able to identify her friends by the way they walked rather than the shape of their noses... I can't say. But she had a human friend who was one of those people that always tried to sneak up on her and us... lord knows why, some people do that... and somewhere between 50 and 100 feet away Fuzzy Rat would always start jumping up and down on my shoulder all excited to see him... wind direction didn't matter. Likewise when we would walk with her she would always look backwards so she could find her way home or back to the car... Bad eyesight is a subjective and perhaps misleading term... 

Notice in the following video, it had just rained, so Fuzzy Rat was navigating by sight, not smell...

https://vid.me/BzNQ 

And she has no difficulty identifying our car... Compared to a hawk, she had awful vision and likely her vision was worse than a human's vision... but low resolution isn't the same thing as out of focus which is what most people would consider bad vision... Max who was a distant relative of Fuzzy Rat could navigate in a similar fashion and also liked to hang out in trees... Cloud with black-ruby eyes didn't typically like to explore away from us, but Misty with black-ruby eyes, almost seems to navigate better around twilight... Cloud will walk at heel at night under street lights, but will jump on my leg when we get to the dark places between them...

We can't get into a rats head to see what they see and how they interpret what they see, but with thousands of hours outdoors with several rats, I have a pretty good idea based on what I've seen them do and how they react to different situations and it isn't quite as cut and dry as some people might think.

And I second the opinion that harnesses are a bad idea. Rats are literally designed to slip into and out of tight places... and a harness is likely to inspire a false sense of confidence... and in shoulder ratting, false confidence kills rats.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

Wow, pretty cool! I always wondered about this, actually. Archie had black eyes, and he was always able to identify me no matter where I was in the room in relation to him, and he appeared to watch with interest anything that was happening in the room. I'd put him on a shelf on his "perch" and he'd just hang out and watch The Lion Kind Pride Rock style -- he just loved to oversee everything that was going on in the house. I always wondered how much he could actually see and perceive. I took him outdoors sometimes, but he was never a big fan considering his lack of hair and OR's rainy days.


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

I have another question about the sneezes: my boy seems to be getting a bit better by the day as he gets more comfortable with me/the house. However I do notice some minor sniffles/congestion (which I am also suffering from last 2 days because my allergies are going crazy). I read on another thread to feed dark chocolate, 85% or better. I got 90% but it's too bitter -- the boys won't eat it. I also tried giving garlic, both cooked & raw but no luck. What foods with antibiotic or decongestant properties could I give them that they would be more likely to eat?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

The chocolate can only be used to temporarily open the airways in a respiratory attack, and won't do anything more.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually, with new home sneezes there isn't much/anything you really can do other then try and comfort your poor rat that isn't feeling well... You pretty much just ride it out... kind of like a kid with a cold.

I'm not saying that a little Tylenol or decongestant might not help, but with rats being small it comes down to nailing the dosages right on or you do more harm than good... and you don't really want to mask the symptoms because "getting better" is how you tell it's new home sneezes and not a URI. 

As a parent, rat or human, you want to do everything you can to make your rats or kids feel better, but some things just have to run their course...


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## rlstine (Mar 2, 2016)

I understand. The boys are really doing well now. Neither sneeze much at all. I notice some congestion in the mornings, but I think this is due to the dust and allergens in my apartment and I'm looking into an air purifier (for me as much as them... I'm an allergy sufferer!). A little prophyrin sometimes upon waking up on the eye, but I've read that's pretty normal, especially for hairless. Thanks for answering all my questions, Rat Daddy. It was a nerve-wracking week but I think we're on the other side of it now. The boys are healthy and I couldn't be more pleased


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