# Hi I'm new here, but meet my rats :D



## Kate..

I have 6 rats. 
4 Girls and 2 Boys.
None of which are related. 
I'll tell you them in Age Order

This is glyn :








He is my oldest rat and I love him very much. He's quite a big boy but with a warm heart. He is a typical man, all he does is eat and sleep but he loves attention.

This is Chloe:








She is my oldest girl but she definately doesn't show it. She's always up and about and I never see her stop. She spends most of her time looking after my other three girls because i think she feels it was her duty. She's definately boss of the cage and I love her very very much.

This is Cookie:








I got Cookie because I read that rats are much happier when in company, and I thought Chloe would absaloutly adore a friend. Cookie is quite an odd shape, he ears are just too big for her and her forhead in humungous!  But that's just too fit her large brain in  I love that she's not picture perfect beause that's what makes her her. She's such a people rat and always wants a cuddle.
Cookie and Glyn had babies about 3 months ago, 12 of them, and here they are:








She was a great Mum.


This is Sox:








Sox is my model of the group, she's a typical girl, she flonces about, knowing she's the best and knowing she's gorgeous. She's never dirty and flutters her eyelashes across at the boys! I love her so much because she's such a little girl, yet she's not afraid to pick a fight with poor old Minnie if gets in the way.

This is Harry:








Harry is definately the clown of the group. He has bundles of personality and isn't afraid to show it. His legs are very small so his belly just drags along the ground and he just cheers you up. He's a big softie and will let anyone push him around. I named him Harry because the marking on his back looks like a lightning bolt so, Harry Potter  

Sox is pregnant with Harry's babies.

And last but not least, this is Minnie:








I've only had Minnie for a little while and she's my only rat that's a breed. She's a Siamese and very gorgeous for it. Her and Sox and my beauties and they definately know it, they're best friends, never leave each others side, apart from when Sox just has to show who's in charge, it's a love hate relationship.

And those, are my rats


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## MariHxc

your ratties are cute, but are these intentional breedings?


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## Kate..

International Breedings? What do you mean?


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## MariHxc

not international...
intentional


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## Kate..

Oh! Yeah they were  I love breeding them. Don't worry the boys and girls are in separate cages when I don't want any babies. So in a months time, prepare to see some baby pictures 

Oh I was wondering, from the pictures of Sox and Harry can you tell me roughly what colour the babies will be...

will they be mostly black, mostly white, or mostly black and white ?

thanks x


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## MariHxc

alright.... i don't mean to be rude.. but why are you breeding animals who you say are "less than perfect"? i.e. Harry's legs are small so his belly drags on the ground.. why would you want more babies with things wrong with them? i'd think if someone where to breed their animals you'd use the the best you could find with the best lines...


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## Kate..

Yeah they're not perfect but they're still happy and healthy, yeah his legs are too small but is doesn't hurt him, it's just like someone having a big chin or something, you wouldn't tell them not to have babies would you!


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## MariHxc

yeah, but that's with a person. people have a choice. you put two rats together and they're going to breed. that's your call, not theirs. you know how many rats need homes out there? why not get some of them instead of breeding your's?

i'm sorry.. but a 14 year old who breeds her rats just because they're happy and healthy sets off a red flare in my head.


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## Kate..

Because I breed them for my friends, do you know how many of my friends want these babies? You don't know my story so it's not right of you to judge me. Just because an animal isn'tt perfect doesn't mean you can't love and care for it. All my friends dont' care what the rat looks like, harry isn't right yet they all think he's the cutest.


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## MariHxc

yeah, but come on. don't you think your rats will be happier _and_ healthier by just being rats and not having to worry about taking care of babies??

i'm sorry, but if you come on here and say all of this, you have to be okay with someone not agreeing with it. i'm just giving you my reasons..

and also... what kind of bedding is that?


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## Kate..

I change my bedding monthly.

Yeah but you're not seeing it from my point, only your own.

So what you're saying is that no rats should ever be bred because they are happier and healthier not being bred? Your rats got bred on purpose no doubt.


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## MariHxc

you change your PINE bedding monthly. that sure sounds like that'll make some healthy rats..

but yes, i know that some rats need to be bred. but not everyone should breed their rats. my rats came from a petstore, so they most likely have bad breeding. and for the very fact of me not knowing their linage, i would never put them in with a female. sure, i would love to have baby rats, but i wouldn't want badly bred pups. 

yes, i'm being harsh, but believe me, this is tame compared to what a lot of people would think if they read that.


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## Kate..

You just think you know best. 

Know i mean i change my TYPE OF BEDDING every month so the rats get a change. 

I do know the heritage. I bred sox last year so i know both of her parents and Harry was bred by a breeder who is a family friend. They are both incredibly healthy and I'm sure the babies will be too. You wouldn't have said anything if I had said "oh they're all perfect little rats"


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## MariHxc

yes, actually i would have. because like i said 'a 14 year old breeding her rats just because they're happy and healthy sets a red flare off in my head'


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## MariHxc

Kate.. said:


> You just think you know best.


and i certainly hope this wasn't a personal attack because i never once said something about YOU. just what you're doing.


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## Kate..

It's not just because they're happy and healthy.

My friends want the babies and they all said they would rather have my rats babies than a pet shops, so they would then know the babies are coming from healthy parents. Also what does me being 14 have anything to do with anything, like I said i know a breeder, so if there are any problems I can just ask her.


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## MariHxc

i just don't see the point. if your friends want rats from breeders, why don't they get them from the one you know?


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## Kate..

What's the difference!?!

My friend is retiring anyway. She's just going to live with her adults and help me with my litters.


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## MariHxc

i think that if you honestly know where they came from and you ONLY breed ones who are at least of AFRMA standards with an expierenced breeders help... that i guess it's better. but i still don't like the idea of breeding animals who are just "happy and healthy". because seriously.. if every living thing produced just because they're happy and healthy, could you imagine how crowed everything would be??


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## Kate..

What are you talking about? Why else should you breed rats? There are breeders out there who will breed rats on their dying day, they don't care, as long as they get money out of it. 

Everything in this world should only breed if they're happy and healthy.

I don't even understand what you're saying anymore you know.


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## MariHxc

i'm saying that shouldn't be the only reason.


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## Kate..

What other reason should you have then?


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## MariHxc

forget it. 
you're right


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## MariHxc

actually..
here


http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3502.html


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## Rat_Crazed

aww! so cute!
welcome


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## Rattiegma

I'm sorry Kate, but the replies you got from MariHxc are the same kind of replies you'll get from most people on this board. We, as a whole, in no way support breeding. Especially from back yard breeders. 

Your rats are adorable, but you have no idea what kind of illnesses you could be breeding into these poor babies. Please please please read the stickies at the top of the accidental litters section.


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## Buggzter

Ok, I didn't bother reading all of this, because it's rediculous. If you only change your bedding once a month your house would smell so bad you'd attract all the bugs in a mile radius. If you are breeding cuz you have "so many friends who want them" you are way luckier than anyone else around here cuz other than my huge luck that I found homes quickly for 6 babies, you rarely find someone going that quickly.

We judge because we care about the rats - not you. Girls can die in childbirth, rats will get Upper Respiratory Infections (URIs) when on smelly bedding, and obviously you don't REALLY care hugely about them or you would find out their real needs and the realities of breeding and what genetical stuff may come out of your rats. It's called backyard breeding. Noone here will like you one bit, I promise you, because you treat your rats HORRIBLY.

Also, I have a feeling that some of this stuff is plainly not true, and you may be trying to make us mad. I'm angry that rats are treated this way by so many people accross the US, but I try to just educate people about the proper care as much as possible and do what I can to have these animals have a better life. 

If you REALLY want your rats to have a great long life of health and happiness, you will read the stickies on all the areas of this forum. This will help you see how rats are cared for in the best conditions - something everyone should do everything they can to accomplish. If you cannot afford to do these things for your rats, you should not have rats. It's like a child, if you don't sacrifice to make sure they are fed, clothed, and clean and in a safe environment, you should NOT have children in your home. 

Don't bother posting the pics of your little babies. They may be cute, but people here really don't want anything to do with rat breeders like you. If you bred in a way and cared for them in a way that they were healthy, the babies were improvements on the parents, and you KNEW WHAT YOU WERE DOING WITH GENETICS (that's a BIG red flag that you really don't care about what might happen with the babies - genetic diseases are aweful, and you should be careful to breed ones that are healthy and stop breeding parents when they show problems), and only bred each female 2-3 time MAXIMUM and between the ages of 6-12 months (very minimum is 4-4.5 months first breeding, very max is 15 months for last litter's weaning, so 13 months for breeding) depending on what breeder you talk to.

Ask questions to improve your husbandry of the animals. (If you don't know the meaning of that word, you shouldn't be breeding. It's a big word and it's meaning is very essential in such animal care.) But PLEASE do not speak again of breeding your animals. EVER. We only want to know when you have STOPPED.

I will now go finnish reading the posts...

PS - I really don't care what you say to all this. I'm not gonna respond to you unless you are asking questions on how to care for your animals.


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## sourat

You have such the cutest ratties, and with adorable names!


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## Buggzter

Kate.. said:


> What are you talking about? Why else should you breed rats? There are breeders out there who will breed rats on their dying day, they don't care, as long as they get money out of it.
> 
> Everything in this world should only breed if they're happy and healthy.
> 
> I don't even understand what you're saying anymore you know.


I agree to a point. 

You only breed rats responsibly if you know their temperments, if they are healthy enough for it (do you know how to check for that? How long do you wait between litters? How many litters does each doe have in her lifetime? how old are they when bred?), and if you ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH HOMES>

Most people who breed rats for money are ones who don't give a rip about rats. They breed for snake food cuz otherwise it's not a lucrative business. Cages, bedding, food, and time with the animals take way too much $ from them if the animals are treated well. Also, VET BILLS: if you want to be respected as a breeder, your animals MUST MUST MUST see the vet whenever there is a possibility of problems. And most respected breeders keep one of nearly every litter to further their lines and to monitor the lines as the individuals age. What breeder are you speaking of that is retiring? If it's one that is registered and known, we'll likely get off your back. But it just doesn't sound at ALL like you are being responsible with these guys. I don't know, cuz I'm not there, but it SOUNDS that way so far.

Also, why do you change the litter types? What types of litters do you use? How often do you change the litter itself? What foods are you giving them? How often do they get vet check ups (since they are breeding and need to make sure all is going well with them)? How long have you had them? How long do you spend with each individual rat per day? How much time do you spend with the babies each day? What sort of housing are they in (including sizes)? What treats do they get and how much? Do you know of the grandparents for your rats, too, or just their parents? Have you had any ill pups from genetics? Where did your breeder friend get their rats and how many litters does this person have in a year ( so we might know how "reputable" the breeder is - some are great, some are horrible... We just want to know).

All these things might help us feel much better about you. I'm not fully sure where else you may have posted - I'm quite busy today, but Mari asked me to take a look at this to make sure she's not just overlooking something that makes this all make sense.

Help us understand so this DOES make sense to us, please. I really really dislike people who just willy nilly breed their rats, cuz I have adopted two girls who were not of good breedings, both pregnant before I got them. One was just under 8 weeks old when she gave birth, and my vet thinks Cinnamon is maybe over a year in age already. They had 19 babies only between them, 3 weeks apart almost, and all is going OK. I've had 2 babies die so far (runts), and with all my ratties I'm booked with play times with them all! It's tough to care for them properly when you have more than a couple rats, and I have a few DOZEN (including fosters) either in my home or in quarentine and that doesn't include the babies! 

I'm sorry if I offend you with this, but I'm very very set in the need for animals to be cared for and treated well. Just because a 16 year old girl can "breed" and have babies, doesn't mean she should. Just because a 10 year old can, she serriously shouldn't! and Just because a 45 year old can have a baby, doesn't mean she SHOULD - there are ALWAYS risks, and you need to be prepared for it all.

We are here to help. Serriously, all we want is what is best for your animals. Especially read the stickies about breeding in the "accidental litters" page - and please don't post photos there since it is for ACCIDENTAL litters only. We can also point you to a breeder in your area that is excellent, if your friend is not one that the people here feel is one that has a good rattery.

I'm sorry that this was soooooo long, but these are important things. *sigh* I'm also having a bad week because of a couple deaths and the surprize litter with Cinnamon, so I'm REALLY down on any breeders unless they are registered...


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## CaptainFlow

I agree with Rattinigma, you should go take a look at the stickies in the "Help with Accidental Litters" section. 

This forum as a whole does not support intentional breeding for any reason without years (at least 5) of genetic study, a long mentor ship under an ethical breeder, and starting with a breeding pair with a known background of at least 5 disease and genetic condition free generations. 

Even then, each female should be bred no more than twice. And the breedings should be strictly to better the rat species as a whole with a long term multigenerartional breeding plan, and not just to churn out cute babies. 

Yes, your friends may love rats, and who are we to blame them?! We all love them, too! But there are thousands of unwanted rats in the world just desperate for wonderful homes like your friends could provide, and it is much more responsible to be finding and sheltering some of those rats! You could even find a pregnant mother who needs a new home, and viola, you still get to see babies!

I too once thought it would be "fun" to breed one of my girls. She was an odd-eye, I wanted to see if I could get some in her litter. Well, needless to say, I was about 14, and had no formal training. My girl was from the pet shop, with unknown genetics. She was about to deliver, when one night she died. I never got to see her babies. I never knew what went wrong. It was one of the saddest days of my life, because suddenly I knew that it was all MY fault. It was my selfish desire that killed my Sandy. 

Obviously you have been lucky enough that none of your girls have died. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue. You should stop, immediately. 

Your rats are darling, but that's not a reason to breed them. The vast majority of rats should not be bred, and the vast majority of rat owners should not be breeding.


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## InFamous

i totally understand where everyone is coming from, im against irresponsible breeding of any animal under any circumstance, but some of the comments made to this girl, who is only 14 i feel was a little out of line...i mean she obviously loves her rats if she took the time to write out little bios out for each of them, but its obvious she doesnt know exactly how to care for them (hence the pine bedding and once a month cleanings) 
think about it, she already has the babies, shes gonna give them to her friends..instead of making her feel bad and attacking her probably making her feel like she never wants to come back on the forum...we should be educating her in a non attacking way so she takes that knowledge with her and passes it on to her friends
it was a very irresponsible thing to do, and maybe im wrong and just justifying it with age and lack of experience
most of us make mistakes before we learn

"a man's errors are his portals to discovery"


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## MariHxc

if you noticed.. i was just talking to her and pointing out what she did. i would have been perfectly fine just talking to her about it and letting her know what she did wrong. the more we talked, the more frustrated i got because she wasn't understanding what i was saying.


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## InFamous

no no i wasn't talking about you...thats why i said "some of the comments" i didn't want to personally attack anyones comments
actually i liked your comments to her..
and you're right it is frustrating trying to explain something to someone and its like they aren't even hearing or trying to understand
maybe i just have more patience than normal from working with old demented people all day


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## MariHxc

okay good  i was confused for a minute, i didn't think what i said was too bad. but yeah, that's why i finally had to stop, i didn't want to be too rude and if i kept at it, i would have exploded.


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## InFamous

i completely understand...and its funny how even though we're typing on a forum you can actually feel the emotion involved just by the way things are typed out ::side note::


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## collisiontheory89

Welcome! I know it's kind of scary with everyone getting mad at you, so I've tried to explain it from their point of view...you're young and everyone makes mistakes, don't take it personally (I'm sure I piss heaps of people off too)but you really should consider your actions...

There is nothing wrong with breeding rats- as long as it's done responsibly! Not just finding homes for the babies (although I am pleased to see you have lined up homes, that's good), but making sure the parents will produce healthy offspring. Healthy doesn't just mean they have 4 legs and a tail. You can't always see healthy. To responsibly breed ANY animal you need to have an understanding of their pedigree and genetics. Many animals (including humans) can be genetic carriers of a disease that isn't expressed in their phenotype (appearance). This can be because it is a recessive illness, and you need both parents to posses the recessive gene.
Or an animal that may appear to have no health complications can become suddenly ill in their senior years, because the illness is not expressed until they're older.

Anyway, my point is, you CANNOT tell how healthy an animal is unless you know it's genotype. Although an animal may seem healthy, it's simply not possible to predict how healthy the offspring will be without understanding the genetics behind breeding. Any professional will tell you they do not just stick two animals of the opposite sex together. Any cow or sheep that you see on farms are the result of serious selectional breeding to produce the best possible offspring. The farmer knows the pedigree and history of both parents, and can determine the ratio of phenotypes for offspring. 

And what I just said is just the foundation of how to breed animals safely and responsibly. I don't think you should take it personally, I think everyone on here is quite ticked off that you've decided to breed animals without really considering how to do it. You're annoying people because you claim to know what you're doing, when you obviously don't.

As I said, DON'T be put off rats by it! I'm sure you're a very loving owner and CAN responsibly own rats. It's not that you shouldn't have rats, just learn from your mistakes and maybe research things a bit better before doing them. I'm sure you had good intentions and I know it seems fun to breed rats, but, really, THINK about what you're doing.

There's probably spelling errors in there, it's late at night.


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## Kate..

Omg all of you are so silly! I don't change my bedding once a month!! I change it weekly! I change my type of bedding every month! one month i have sawdust, the other i have newspaper, i change it!

my pregnancies and litters have all gone completely perfect and nothing has ever gone wrong, it scares me that you are all really supportive when it's an accidental litter, which can be more dangerous because the rats can be at the wrong age and time of their life.

And it's not that i'm acting like I know what I'm doing but I know that i'm being as responsible as responsible can be! I have a professional rat breeder at my beckoned call, she helped me with the breeding so obviously she didn't think it was a bad idea, so excuse me for taking her opinion on this.

Do you know how many rat breeders in the world don't care, they will just put any two rats together no matter their age or healthyness, all they want is money because rats are cheap so you don't get a lot of money out of it unless you sell a lot.


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## Kate..

And can you pleaaaaaaaase all stop being so patronising, I'm 14 not 8!!

Why does my age justify anything!

And i never see anyone having a go at people for accidental pregnancies.


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## melon

Kate.. said:


> And i never see anyone having a go at people for accidental pregnancies.


i`m not having a go at you, so please don`t take it that way. but the reason people don`t have a go with accidental litters is for the simple fact that they were accidents, many rats come from pet stores pregnant or a rat will escape and mate, these things can`t be helped and the people with the pregnant rat had no choice in the matter therefore there`s no point in blaming them. as i said i`m not having a go i just wanted to point that out.

you do have very beautiful rats and i`m glad to hear you already have homes lined up for the babies, i know how hard finding good homes can be!


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## Kate..

People are having a go! A big one! And it's not fair because all I am doing is breeding my rats. Like a lot of other people in this world.

I see their point about yes the rats might get ill but isn't that a risk every breeder takes? and don't you all own the beautiful babies? all of my births have been smooth and completely stress free.


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## A1APassion

Can you at least concede to the fact that this forum has decided that it is not one that will discuss intentional breeding? The discussion of such really doesn't serve purpose here since it has been ruled that it is a topic to not be discussed because it could only encourage some to do just that... toss a couple rats together & see what happens. There are forums out there that do discuss breeding, this one does not.

I will support you in one regard. No one has the authority to tell you what to do with your rats but you have to accept that this particular forum has made the choice to not allow the conversation of intentional breeding to be discussed here. If you cannot respect that decision by those how founded this board then it will always cause controversy & hard feelings when you continue this subject & you will always feel the need to defend your actions.

It only makes sense to not rock the boat rather than attempt to conform this highly debated decision. A lot of thought went into this before it was decided to be a rule.


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## InFamous

my mistake on the once a month bedding, i read that statement wrong...
even though you rotate the type of bedding you use, i, and im sure most others on the forum would suggest not to rotate with cedar or pine, its horrible for a rat's health, and well being...its very toxic to them as well as humans in some studies...it lowers their immune systems and makes them susceptible to disease, especially for the ones...

and even though i dont support the breeding whatsoever i wish you luck with your babies


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## collisiontheory89

I don't think the whole 'everyone else does it, so why can't I?' or 'there are people who are way worse than me' argument really justifies doing it. I mean, you're right, heaps of people do it, and yes, heaps of people are really greedy and just do it for money. It's fairly obvious you're not one of those people and, without being patronising, you appear to have the best intentions. But that still doesn't make it okay. If your argument is correct, then we should all go out and steal cars because heaps of people do it, and it's not like we would be rapists or murderers. It's still WRONG.

"I know that i'm being as responsible as responsible can be". No, you obviously don't. What I described before is being as responsible as one can be. People study genetics for years and actually do it for a living. They work with zoos to establish breeding programmes and humans to try and eliminate genetic illnesses. That's being completely and utterly responsible.

I don't want to hassle you, and I'll be quiet now because I've said all I'll say. Like I said, I'm not trying to offend you, simply point out the error of your ways as we see it. I do hope you stay on the forum, no one can tell you what to do with your rats. I'm just trying to explain how to responsibly breed animals.


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## dragonegg

I really like your litter! your oldest is cute and scruffy )


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## clarry

I think people should give up on this one, it is clear she is not going to listen to you. Your age is an important factor as it shows you cannot possibly be half as experienced as most of the people trying to give you advice. I am not personally attacking you as I am only 18 myself and even I still wouldn't deem myself responsible enough to even THINK about breeding rats, even though I too know the genetics of my two boys as they were from a responsible rat breeder, I am also not an immature 18 year old, I am very grown up for my age and I believe these things shouldn't be messed around with.
However I am glad you have a breeder as a family friend, I am not going to sit here and ask you not to breed anymore as it is apparent you are not going to listen, just say that I hope you take good care of them, your rats are lovely and I hope your kittens are all as happy and healthy as they are and I truely hope that you never come across any of the possible problems but if you do, know that you have been warned.


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## Caity

Kate.. said:


> sawdust












Assuming your friends are also around 14, do they have part time jobs or are their parents readily willing to foot the inevitable vet bills? Not even the ones that will likely result from your bedding choices and unproven lines...the ones that are merely associated with having a type of pet that is prone to respiratory infections, skin problems, abscesses, parasites, tumors, and aging complications?


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## Gobo

i think she might have left?


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## Caity

Oh.

Like I read date stamps or something.


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## begoodtoanimals

Kate should look up the pet finder rat section in her area and see if we need more randomly bred rats. Monthly bedding changes? Mine smell after two days!
Hope you educate yourself regarding breeding and if you want to breed, get into contact with a breeder with a good reputation in this field to mentor you with genetics. 
And where do you get so many friends who will take all your rat babies. Not for snake food I hope.


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## ration1802

I think this was over a while ago guys, let's not drag up old bad feelings please


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## Neverstrayed

Sorry but i've only just read this and i was disgusted! Not at Kate but at how this was handled. Yea it's not advisable what she's doing but there's no need to go in guns blazing! Just a bit of friendly advice Maybe a few links to some informative sites.and the term 'I feel...' not 'YOU SHOULD NOT...' 

When has that ever worked with anyone, especially a teenager!

I thought this forum was for friendly advice! Maybe if she wasn't made to feel like she was a silly little girl or that she was a bad rat owner she might have stayed long enough to correct her ways. 

Jeez i better be careful not to say something wrong eh? I hope none of you teach!


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## MariHxc

Neverstrayed said:


> Jeez i better be careful not to say something wrong eh? I hope none of you teach!


yeah, i think that was a little unnecessary. if you think this was bad, go read through some of the other fights. this was _nothing_. and just because we got a little heated in this thread was just because it was something we all feel strongly about. 

i agree with Ration.. this thread should have just been left alone.


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## ration1802

I think it's clear that this matter is now over and done with. To avoid any future issues, I think it's safest to lock it now.


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