# *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE*



## ambernd

oh my gosh I can not believe this. I think my other rat swiss is pregnant. And believe me, this one was a total accident, because I cannot handle another litter right now. I am totaly stressing right now and I really don't want this to happen.

About well 19 days ago ALL of my rats got out. My 2 boys Stewie and brian got out of there cage while I was trying to clean it. And to make things worse my sister was right next to me cleaning the girls cage and guess what? Swiss got out too. So I am looking EVERYWHERE for them and I can't find them. Then when I look under my bed I see all of them. They where actually under my head board and it wieghs a LOT LOT LOT so I couldn't pick it up and move it to get them. My boys are not very well sosilized and they won't even get near me. So I try to get Swiss. She isn't buying the whole treat thing. So I give up for the day after trying to get them out for like the whole day. Well the thing is the next morning me and my WHOLE family where going to florida for a week. So if I didn't find them then they would have to stay there for a whole week. Well guess what, I couldn't get them and they where lose for a whole week.

But she looks like Cheese when she was prego. She isn't as big as she was but her nipples are showing alot and I think I feel babies in her belly. I don't know what to do. 

* If anyone wants to take her then PLEASE tell me. I really can't handle her right now with Cheeses litter and school is starting soon. Plus I don't have another sutible cage for raising babies. *

I can't believe this happened.


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

We would take her (as we're 2 hours away), but we are beyond our max limit, even with many of the rats in foster homes.

I suggest getting an e-spay ASAP. I think you said no way last time, but that will prevent babies again.

My suggestion for the future is not to clean cages with the rats inside. Use the bathtub, or a playpen, or have someone play with them in another room.

Have you talked to your parents and told them that she may be pregnanat? Sounds like they need to decide what needs to be done (and HUMANELY, I hope).


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well ive told my dad and he doesnt really care he just says "ok"... i havnt told my mom because she doesnt really like rats and she will get mad. Wich she will say the same thing my dad did. But i dont want to get an e-spay. I think thats cruel. Killing the babies just because of what i did.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

try to contact some shelters around you, they can help you to rehome the babies, you could act as a foster parent for them until homes are found, thats kinda what im doing with my baby panda hamsters. It is really important to be responsible, and I don't want you to feel as though I'm chewing you out, but had I have been stuck in this situation, I would have done EVERYTHING possible to get them out...especially before leaving them for a week. You kind of got yourself into this mess by not moving that heavy head board. :s


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well you havnt see my head bord... its solid oak and it is like 7ft wide and like 6ft tall.... its huge!


----------



## Hippy

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Renay, Im sure she did try EVERYTHING, possible. I as well have a headboard and so does my mom. They can be extremely heavy and once they are in it takes a lot to remove them.

I would take your girl, but you live VERY far away. Im sorry to hear about this and Im sure, all in good time, you will find someone to take her. :[


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Lol I have a head board to, and I don't care if it would have taken the entire canadian army, our whole 3 submarines and all, I would have moved it before leaving them for a week. Like I said, I'm not trying to chew you out, but what if they had died while you were on vaca? Its irresponsible. My guinea pig got lost underneath my house. My mother and I tried for three days straight before finally catching him... It just takes a little extra effort.. and a house is a bit of a bigger problem than a head board. Anyway I wish you the best of luck, and this is a good lesson for all of us actually...


----------



## Rodere

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Was your other female in the same room in a cage with bars on it? Or any small openings like that? Because if so, she very well could be pregnant again. You need to get another setup to put them in when you are cleaning their cages. Or only clean one cage at a time. It honestly sounds like you shouldn't have both sexes. At the very least you shouldn't have both sexes in the same room..


----------



## ladylady

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Sorry for you and your rats, very stressful time.
Good example of why spaying is a good plan


----------



## lilspaz68

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Clean cages one at a time, ALWAYS! Remove rats to do this, as it stresses them out and/or they might bite you to protect their territory.

I cannot believe you left animals on their own for a week. Did you put out food and water at least so they didn't die while you were away?? You never mentioned that.

And yes an e-spay is the responsible thing right now. I think you should look into neutering your boys, rehoming your boys or putting their cages in another room. 

How old is Swiss? If she's older then you could have real complications with the pregnancy/birth.


----------



## twitch

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

an e-spay is not a cruel thing though it may sound it. with all the rats out there now being killed simply because there is no home for them and they are taking up space in a shelter adding to the problem even if it is "just one litter" is cruel. finding homes for the babies is going to be hard and you already said you don't have time for it. finding a home for mom while she's pregnant will be equally as hard. unless of course you don't care who she goes with but then she can be neglected, hurt or killed along with the babies (before or after they are born). the spay will have tons of health benefits for your girl and the babies aren't going to know hte difference. in fact the girl may not even know the difference. 

the responsible and humane thing to do if you don't have the money or time for this litter is to terminate it. its better they know no life then one in which they are not given enough attention or adequate spacing or neglect. an e-spay is not cruel.


----------



## Rodere

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I agree entirely with Twitch.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



Rodere said:


> Was your other female in the same room in a cage with bars on it? Or any small openings like that? Because if so, she very well could be pregnant again. You need to get another setup to put them in when you are cleaning their cages. Or only clean one cage at a time. It honestly sounds like you shouldn't have both sexes. At the very least you shouldn't have both sexes in the same room..


Well my females with the babies was at a different home while we went on vaction so I'm positive she isn't pregnant. And the person that was watching her for me doesn't have any male rats anyway. 



> I cannot believe you left animals on their own for a week. Did you put out food and water at least so they didn't die while you were away?? You never mentioned that.


Yes I put food out for them in a couple places around the house and the same with water bottles. But you guys really have no idea how long I tried to get them out. But this had to happen the night before i had to get up at like 4 in the morning to get on a plane. 



> an e-spay is not a cruel thing though it may sound it. with all the rats out there now being killed simply because there is no home for them and they are taking up space in a shelter adding to the problem even if it is "just one litter" is cruel. finding homes for the babies is going to be hard and you already said you don't have time for it. finding a home for mom while she's pregnant will be equally as hard. unless of course you don't care who she goes with but then she can be neglected, hurt or killed along with the babies (before or after they are born). the spay will have tons of health benefits for your girl and the babies aren't going to know hte difference. in fact the girl may not even know the difference.
> 
> the responsible and humane thing to do if you don't have the money or time for this litter is to terminate it. its better they know no life then one in which they are not given enough attention or adequate spacing or neglect. an e-spay is not cruel.


I know it's not actually cruel but I just don't think it's right. I don't know what I'm going to do. It's not like they are going to be neglected but I just don't want to deal with another litter right now. I was wanting to put everything into Cheeses litter. I guess if nobody will take her then I will have to buy another 20gallon tank or something. I can handle them but I would rather not with school starting in like 2 weeks. But if she has them then she has them. My nearest rat rescue is like 2 hours away and i believe they are a non kill rescue so they probably wouldn't have room anyway. But i will try to get ahold of them to maby see if they could meet me half way. And if anyone can take her please tell me.


----------



## savveth

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I think it is a tad bit irresponsible to not even consider an e-spay.. =\


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



savveth said:


> I think it is a tad bit irresponsible to not even consider an e-spay.. =\


I agree...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



savveth said:


> I think it is a tad bit irresponsible to not even consider an e-spay.. =\


im sorry everyone thinks im irresponsible for not wanting to stop babies from coming into the world.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

lol they're babies that you would rather not have to take care of anyway, so why bring them into the world to begin with, I'm sorry but this is starting to get very childish.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



renay said:


> lol they're babies that you would rather not have to take care of anyway, so why bring them into the world to begin with, I'm sorry but this is starting to get very childish.


ok im sorry but i just dont want to stop rats from coming into the world. I guess Im kinda touchy about it. Sorry


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

*shakes head* this is a lost cause.


----------



## twilight

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Not everyone agree's with taking lifes just because its not a convenient time for them to be born. Just like some people do not agree with abortion in humans.

I do not think its fair to call that person with different views about life childish or irresponsible, just because your views are different.

Before you jump to conclusions about ME I will point out right now, I am not against e-spay *to an extent*. I bought a horse and then got a call from the previous owner that she might be pregnant. Since we had no idea who the sire might be (he could have lord knows what kind of genetic problems) we called the vet out to give her a shot to abort the foal. It was to soon for there to even be life inside of her so I still feel it was right.

If you are to get the rat an e-spay, I highly suggest doing it right away, as to hopefully the end lives before they start developing.


----------



## Taru

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Ok,

I've been reading this for a while now, and I have to say that I semi-agree with everyone here, I know not taking a real position is crappy, but here it is.

First, I think that leaving animals out of a cage for a week, not knowing where they could go or what could happen to them is irresponsible, no matter how long and hard you tried to get them from where they were. There was not one person in your house that could have helped you? You couldn't have called a friend to come help? At least you left them food and water, but still as an animal owner you need to be willing to accept that you were wrong, and take steps to make sure it never happens again.

I know that you are fairly new to this forum, so I'm also guessing that you are fairly new to the whole owning a rat business as well. Let me tell you as someone who is going to be getting her first rats in a week that I did three full months of research before I even started thinking of getting a rat. I learned about their breeding habbits, nutrition, needed cage sizes, approprite bedding, all kinds of health information, first aid, I bought every book I could find on rats and caring for them, talked to tons of people who own rats, and I still am nervous about getting my first boys.

Now I'm not saying that you needed to do as much as I did, I'm more then a little OCD and so that's part of the reason I did so much research, but you SHOULD have at least found out about the best ways to clean cages, how to trust train your rats, and some other basic things BEFORE you got them. he fact that you were unable to get your rats to come to their names means that they should NEVER have been in the position to be out of their cage unsupervised. You should have had the information that you needed to put the rats somewhere safe to clean the cage, not have them in it when you were cleaning, this is basic rat owning information.

I hope for your rats' sake you do a little more research, ask a few more questions about basic care, and take some time before deciding what to do with your pregnant female. I understand your position about not wanting to kill babies, but is it any better to put them into a world where they could end up killed anyways? You don't want them, you can't find homes for them, and you can't keep them. Is that fair to put both you and your rat through that? There are HUGE risks when a female has babies, do you have a vet that you can take her to in case of an emergency? If not then you might as well be ready to have not only all the babies die, but the mother as well. If you do have a vet on call that's good, but have you talked to him about how much it would cost if there were complications? Are you ready to pay for that? 

Also you need to SERIOUSLY consider getting your boys neutered so that something like this can't happen agian. This is not your first accidental litter and you need to think about how much you can afford to have happen both emotionally and financially. 

I've ranted on enough now, and please don't take this as a personal attack, or an attack at all. I'm just trying to put some good information out there so that your rats can have the best lives possible. 

Emy


----------



## twilight

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Great post. Kudos to you.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Ambernd, i'm not fully for e-spays either, but I would never have allowed myself to get into your predicament, and I'm sorry but a "rat abortion" and a human abortion are a bit different. I'm not so much worried about the unborn pinkies as I am about the fact that you just left them for a week, as much as you've been defending yourself, have you stopped to think of what could have happened to them while you were gone?


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I could probably take her in, but I would get her e-spayed and I'd need her to be surrendered with our cost of an e-spay... And that would be $80.

I don't know what to tell you. You don't want to e-spay her, because you feel responsible, but you're fine with a rescue or someone taking her and taking care of the problem for you. I don't really see how it's different from your mindset. Either you terminate the pregnancy, or dump her off on someone else... What's the difference?

My suggestion - as others have said - at this point is if you must have males and females, then you need to have at least one gender fixed. If you're not going to do that, I suggest rehoming all of one gender.

At this point, though... Your choices are limited. You can do an e-spay, you can surrender her and babies to a rescue (who might e-spay, as no rescue WANTS pregnant moms - that's what we get most often), or you can get more cages and take care of the problem you helped create. There's no other options at this point.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Renay I understand why you are angry. But it's not like I could cancel my trip to florida. I am 100% against e-spays unless there is serious promblems with one of the parents or something. And I promise you I did everything I could before I left to try to get them to come out. And yes I have thought about what could happen to them while i was gone. It pretty much ruined my vaction just thinking about Swiss may be pregnant or they might get hurt. I don't like this stuff anymore than you do but what happened happened and there is nothing we can do. But I take a firm stance with my e-spay opinion.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I'm in Florida so I'm no help as to taking her, them, any but I can tell you about a place you could find a suitable cage for free.

I use http://freecycle.org

Just type in your zip code & you will be directed to groups to join that are local to you. Once you join you follow their rules about how to post & simply ask other members if they have a small animal cage they wish to get rid of.

side note: aquariums really aren't a good choice of cage. Sure they use them in pet stores but those rats aren't around long & sadly, their comfort is high on the list of priorities since many aren't sold as pets. Aquariums do not allow proper ventilation & they actually make the "stink" worse that what is actually is. make sure you get a cage that the bars are close enough that the babies won't squeeze through once they start exploring. 

I make our cages but I have found some really great cages through freecycle.

Hope this info helps you & anyone else out there reading this now.

Sincerely,
Julia


pictures of my ratty family
http://community.webshots.com/user/A1APassion


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well I only use aquariums for raising babies not for permanent homes. But I do have a aqarium that has a topper on it but that it the only one that they live in.

Thank you!


----------



## twilight

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

:? 

You do realize that by not getting an e-spay you could lose the mother rat and/or her babies? You realize that there could be birth defects? You realize you are bringing lives into the world when you don't have the time or experience for them? You realize you are adding to the overwhelming number of rats that need homes?


----------



## OnlyOno

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

oh my ****ing god you guys, give it a rest already and help her, don't criticize her. personally i feel that amber has done a decent job with raising cheese's litter, considering the fact that it was irresponsible to begin with and i agree that she should not have bred rats in the first place or ever again. yes, it is sad that she had to leave her rats in her room for a week, but plane trips are costly to cancel and she gave them plenty of food and water. and honestly, they're *RATS*, they would have eaten her bed if they had to. it's no surprise that another rat of hers is pregnant, but she was already lectured for her first rat and i think that it's rather childish of everyone to jump on her a second time.

if she has a personal reason to not want an e-spay, don't ****ing lecture her on that!! my aunt had her first child at a ridiculously young age and abortion was not even an option, although at that age, it was physically and emotionally unsafe for her to have a child at all. christopher was put up for adoption, becoming "someone else's problem" but no one criticizes her for that. too bad she brought another life on this planet - well so what? she did what was best for the child, taking into account her personal beliefs.

i'm personally tired of how this forum jumps on people for not doing their research, for not seeking help, for not having the financial ability to just drop everything and spend $800 on their animal. not everyone is in the same boat as you are, and some of you guys need to understand that. it's a shame when someone irresponsible or childish owns another living creature and doesn't take care of it, but amber is doing the best for her rats as she can; she's here asking for help, isn't she?

don't take me wrong, i feel it was irresponsible for her to clean two cages of opposite gender at the same time, but the fact that she *had* to leave them for a week, while it saddens me, does not make me want to take her rats away from her. i've had to leave mine unattended for 5-9 hours at a time when i couldn't catch one before work. sure, mozart could have eaten a wire and electrocuted herself, she could have gotten stuck in the springs of my mattress, but when you have no choice you *have no choice*. can't we all just be mature and forget the lectures and just *help* the girl get the best for her rats? holy **** you guys.

EDIT: spelling


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH OnlyOno!!!! I couldnt have put it better. Everything there was cmopletely true. Don't get me wrond I really do appreciate everyone for trying to teach me whats right and wrong but this WAS NOT MY FAULT! I do know that I'm never gonna clean the cages in the same room anymore but everyone has made that very clear that I was wrong. I really do appreciate it believe me but please I have heard everything you guys have to say. And again thank you onlyono.


----------



## twitch

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

i agree with ono. you've gotten lectured plenty and other views of an e-spay have been fully gone over. however, other then someone saying that they can take swiss for you i don't know what we can do to help that you haven't heard before. you know about the risks, you know about the need for a vet, you know about the need for cages over aquarims adn if i remember correctly a preggers diet was discussed in the last post about cheese's litter. 

but if there is something about rat pregnancy and ritten rearing that you're wondering about but have not brought up yet please do not hesitate to ask. i know we can come off as harsh sometimes but everyone has their own opinion and are just trying to do the best they can for all the rats. the people on the other side of the screen can only do that through typed words though and often times our emotions and worry on the subject come through before our help. 

hopefully someone here or through word of mouth from someone here you'll be able to rehome Swiss but if you are not able to find that someone i wish you and Swiss the best of luck.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Thank you twich..... But if anyone has anymore comments or knows someone that would take ehr then please tell me...... But keep checking back her because when (if) she has her babies there will be pics and info!!!


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I can understand where you've coming from, OnlyOno, but the fact remains that she's already said she doesn't want to e-spay, and would rather give up her rat then do so. In other words, she's more or less wanting to dump the problem off on someone else. She's said she may get cages if she has to keep them, but her parents have no interest in helping her in any way (at least, that's what I've gotten from it).

So okay, she doesn't want to e-spay. So it's okay to dump your pregnant rat on someone else, then? That's just not responsible, and it's making some of us angry. I have a rat in the rescue with 1 litter and pregnant with another. This is a repeat thing for those of us in rescue - people's rats get pregnant (mostly due to carelessness of previous owner) and then dump the rats on rescues and shelters to make it all better. There are so many unwanted rats in the world, why contribute to that?

Nobody is saying she SHOULD get rid of her rats, but that she needs to prevent the problem from happening again.

No one knows how to help her, here. I've offered to take her into our rescue, but I would get her e-spayed and I'd like to be recouped for the cost of doing so. Many rescues are SO full of rats (especially pregnant ones like this - that people dump because they don't want the responsibility). Many people here probably can not afford to house a pregnant mom or a big litter. Which is what she's saying she can't do, either.

So what's the solution? How is anyone not helping? Either she terminates the pregnancy (she's said she won't), or she gives up the rat (which IS dumping the problem on someone else/a full shelter or rescue), or she take responsibility on herself and finds a way to get the cages. Yet she's already stated she won't have the time or resources.

So what SHOULD we be saying here? Patting her head and saying it's okay? That doesn't solve anything, either. What help can we offer when every option is one she doesn't want or can't take? She is going to have to make a decision, and none of us can tell her what to do. But we sure can offer advice, which I think is what many of us have already done, only to have it shot down.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I agree with kimmiekins 100% 
So shes been lectured. Who cares some people need to be lectured for making mistakes, apparently she didn't learn from the first accidental litter. Its owners like this that create the need for shelters. And if you think you're getting angry because shes being lectured... Imagine how angry those of us are who help out at rescues and see how hard it is rehoming rats that could have been prevented from comming into this world. Honestly, what is the difference between a back yard breeder and an owner who keeps having "accidental litters", none except for numbers.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

ok guys listen, say you find a little rat on the sidewalk and she just had a litter of 12. And you say "oh no can't have any more rats in this world" so you step on them and kill them. Fair? I don't think so. To me that is the same as an e-spay. And I am **** sure im not gonna just dump her on sombody so you guys need to get that strait right now. I'm not gonna give her to the first person thats wants her. If I can't find anyone that want her then I have no problem with buying a cage for $20 to raise babies. All I was saying is that I don't really want another litter right now because school is starting. Wich wouldn't really have any effect on them because I would still be with them everyday after 3:30 or 4:00. All I wanted from you guys was a little support is that so hard to ask? no. But instead you guys have to attack me with telling me how bad I am and how I should kill the babies I don't think so.


----------



## Mana

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

What if it's a big litter? And you can't find homes for the babies? I was talking to a girl today who bought a rat who turned out to be pregnant, and now she has 15 babies. Are you prepared for a situation like that?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well if she has 15 then I will just have to deal with it. But I just told my sister she may be prego and she said that she would take two or three possibly four of them... I know if she has 15 then I will still need a lot more homes but I will handle it somehow.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Ambernd I'm sorry you feel as though you've been attacked, I know I've personally been a little rough but hear me out on this one okay? #1. In most places leaving rats unattended for a week is considered neglect. #2. we were not trying to FORCE you to get an e-spay, merely to consider it (also an e-spay is much more humane than squashing babies on the sidewalk) and #3. We are all people with the best interest of rats in mind, sometimes you have to step on a few toes in order to get your point across. 

You want our help, but there isn't much more we can offer you than opinions right now because you aren't 100% sure shes pregnant, plus I'm sure you've gathered enough knowledge just with raising the litter you have now. Contact some local rescues, they can help you out a lot better than we can.


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

You're taking responsibility for the situation now... That's awesome.

It doesn't matter HOW it happened at this point. Just that it gets taken care of. Good luck.

I would let your parents know that if it is a big litter, that you will need to spend a good chunk of money on food, possible vet care, etc. Litters really aren't cheap, and occasionally, rats can have up to 20.

By the way... If you get a tank, it should be at LEAST 20 gals. 10 gal. tanks, even as a nursery, is MUCH too cramped.

If you have trouble placing babies, I would be more then happy to put a courtsy post up on our site/Petfinder (we're in the process of getting approved). Let me know (I have lots of adopters in IN and beyond).


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

yea I was planning on a 20gallon anyway. I have a ten gallon but I know it is too cramped.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

if you had a topper the 10 gallon would work.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well im not gonna use the topper because then she would be carring them up and down and possibly hurt them


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

True, do you have an SPCA in your area?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I don't think so.... If I do then it doesnt show up on the internet


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

For those of you who where with me when cheese had her babies then here are some pictures of them and cheese!! Their eyes opened about 1 or 2 days ago and they are getting to be so active. They will be 15 days old tomorrow!!


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

more


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

more


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

more....


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

more...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

more................


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

wow only two.. you got really lucky.


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Cuties. What kind of bedding is that?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I forget what it's called but I need to change it tomorrow it's starting to get nastey. I only got a small bag, but I only got that becuase they where out of carefresh. I went and got some carefresh today so I'm changeing it tommorow


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



renay said:


> wow only two.. you got really lucky.



Well actually 3 but one was born dead :-(


----------



## Hippy

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

OnlyOno, you practically said everything I was about to say but decided not to because I'm not one to argue about this and knowing most people here are just gonna try to tell me other wise. Your first litter is fine, maybe it will be another small one and maybe a large one, some people on here act like its so hard to place rats, when really its not. And no I don't mean dumping them off at a pet store!

Another thing, she isn't trying to DUMB her rat off and make it someone else's problem. She asked if anyone was capable of it, asking, and if not, she would care for her herself. If someone offered to then they are accepting what they are going to have to do. 

Good luck with your rats, hopefully people will back off and try to help, seeing thats what this forum is for. Your other babies look LOVELY. :]


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

thanks hippy...


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Hm, I don't want to reopen a closed wound by saying this, but around here it is very VERY difficult to rehome any kind of rodent. Trust me, hamsters are generally more popular around here than rats, and I can't seem to find homes for mine, and the petstore is NOT an option.


----------



## Hippy

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I understand that, California, people love the rats and kinda not the hamsters, its more of a younger first pet thing. Anyway. I see that, I guess it depends where and when. [understands]


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

yea renay is actually right lol....... I've never had to actually rehome any rats but I even have trouble rehomeing my other pets that are way more popular than rats... Like it took me 7 months to sell a horse one time. And onother 4 months for a dog.... So i can't imagin the time for rehoming rats... And I am with renay and saying pet stores are not an option right now.... Anyone want babies???lol


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

California has hundreds and hundreds of unwanted rats. In fact, there tends to be a hording case or two involving hundreds of rats every so often. The rescues in California (and there are a good handfull) are so beyond full (most have hundreds of rats in the rescue), and they keep having SDA floating around.

It's NOT easy to find homes in CA.

Of course, Indiana is the place we're referring to here, and being that we adopt to people in IN and other surrounding states, I'll say this...

There are adopters in IN, if you look. There are many more surrenders in IN. Ask Kaia at Huron Valley Rat Rescue. She's so full from rats coming from IN, that we took a bunch in to help because she's up to at least 70, if not more.

Not easy to rehome rats. I wish it were, we'd be able to help a lot more rats if they went out as fast as they come in. If you're lucky, you get them adopted out as soon as they can go to new homes... Everyone wants babies. If you're not so lucky, you end up with teenage rats that no one wants. And then adults that no one wants.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

awww i dont see how people think that adult rats arn't cute!!! I think They are cuter than babies!! (ok maby not but they are still cute) lol... I love rats they are soooo... uh I dont even know how to describe them. Everytime I see a rat I just want to pick it up and give it a huge rassberry on its tummy!!!


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I would absolutely adore some babies. Unfortunately you're pretty far away, and there are many in need of homes in my area, so it wouldn't be fair to them  . But once they are born you could try posting them on other websites and such.

Have you thought up a screening process to put potential adopters through yet? Its important that way there you know for a fact that they will be treated well and not fed to snakes as snake food


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Yea i have thought of some questions to ask and such but im not done yet..


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



ambernd said:


> awww i dont see how people think that adult rats arn't cute!!! I think They are cuter than babies!! (ok maby not but they are still cute) lol... I love rats they are soooo... uh I dont even know how to describe them. Everytime I see a rat I just want to pick it up and give it a huge rassberry on its tummy!!!


Hahaha :lol: Thats the reason why I decided to adopt the mother of the litter, shes older, and therefor less desireable because she doesn't have the whole baby effect on people, which is fine by me because shes gorgeous, shes probably going to present me with some problems though, when it comes to intros... shes older than my resident girls and I think this may cause conflict :s


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

oh no... hope everything goes well with her :-(


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well, I'm sure I'll think of something we still have the 2 week quarantine period to deal with so I've got time. 

As for your screening process, I think you should definately ask them a few questions, and if its a beginner rat owner maybe you could print them up a ratty care guide or send them here, that way your babies will have bright futures


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

ideas on what questions to ask? I was thinking like "Do have other rats?" "Do you have both genders?" "What kind of cage will they be staying in?" "Any previous exprence with rats?" "Have you ever bred rats?" ect....


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Thats good. You should also ask if they have a vet in their area that treats small animals, if they don't live in your area that is, hmm.. i'm trying to remember some of the screening questions i was asked... it was a lot of stuff about what would you do if someone became allergic? or what would you do if you moved to an appartment where you weren't allowed animals? what would you do if your rat proved to be destructive... so on and so forth. Its definately a smart idea to screen them though, because you really don't want your babies going to snake food, thats like the worst  but good luck, so far so good. What are you going to do if they have mix matched sexes and are looking to adopt from you?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Then they won't be geting one from me.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Good answer. Lol, I think if it comes down to it and they already have mix matched pairs (2 or more males housed in one cage and 2 or more females housed in another) it might not be so bad to adopt them, but then theres always the chance of an oops litter.. Have you found homes for your other litter or are you keeping them?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I was planning on keeping them. I possibly might sell one but I'm not sure.


----------



## twitch

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

adopt, not sell. A-D-O-P-T. selling is for food not for animals.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



twitch said:


> adopt, not sell. A-D-O-P-T. selling is for food not for animals.



lol... sorry I always forget. 

I might adopt one out.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I am going to get pictures of Swisses belly tonite. I won't be able to post them till around 10:00pm though. So check back and you can tell me if you think she is prego. I really think she is though. 

Amber


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I probably wont be able to help you much, I'm usually pretty good with my animals.. when I think they're pregnant they usually are, trust your instinct I guess, ... then again i thought piggle was prego when i first got her, turns out she was just fat :?


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

The best indicator is daily weighing.

How long has it been since she may have mated? If it's not been at least 2 weeks or longer, you can't often tell by sight. Most rats "blow up" 3 days to a week before birthing. It's often too small of a difference to notice, unless you weigh them daily. Except, of course, near the end.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I wish I could have weighed my hamster daily, but i didn't have access to a proper scale


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Well we where gone from the 7th through the 14th of this month so she could be anywhere from 17 days to 24 days along.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



renay said:


> I wish I could have weighed my hamster daily, but i didn't have access to a proper scale


I dont have a scale either.... :-(


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

You should know in a few days whether or not she is then, because I believe they have their babies between those times right? 17 to 24 days?!


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well the usual is anywhere from 20 days to 23 days on average... So anytime now if she is prego


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Okay, so she may be showing, may not be. LOL.

It's hard to find a good scale. I don't have one, either.  It's on our to-buy list. I've been looking for a used one to keep costs down and I'm not finding many used gram scales.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

ACTUALLY! OMG, i just thought of this, I do have access to a proper scale, my mom has a post office .. wish i had have thought of this a week ago lol.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

lol.... can I use it!?!?! lol


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

if can find your way to Quebec sure


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

There are gram scales in Meijer for $15-$20. I almost brought one but I've been saddled with vet bills too hard recently.

I would adopt a rat since I'm close, but one of my ferrets has started showing signs of adrenal and is going to have to go to the vet and need expensive shots every month until I can afford EXPENSIVE surgery, that is even if a 6.5 year old ferret is a surgical candidate which I'm kind of doubting since she is so old. My rats drained my fund ): I've spent $1,000+ on vet bills this year alone. I knew that they were getting old and it probably was coming but I was hoping it wouldn't happen.

It's hard to say no, especially since I'm going to make the appointment to put Odin down soon sadly. But I know my heart will be too broken after that to adopt for a while. Maybe if you still need someone after their weaned you can contact me then, but even if I'm able I would only be able to take one.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

ok thank you... Sorry to hear about your rats and your ferret... :-(


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Ok well my camera is screwed up so no pictures of Swisses belly :-( Sorry... But I am 150% possitive that she is prego... She is big and i can feel babies kicking in her tummy. She should be due anytime now. Her nipples are really showing too.....


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Does she look bigger than your other rat who had babies was? Because you really got lucky that there were 2 (not counting the still born) and not anymore, this time i'm doubting you'll be so lucky  but we'll see.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

They are about the same size but my other rat was HUGE but she only had 2 sooo i dont know.....


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

no babies yet.... :-(


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

They usually have them at night, but when I had my oops litter years ago, she had them while i was at school.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Yea cheese had hers at night too.... So hopefully tonite because she is big!


----------



## mopydream44

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Somehow this topic escaped my notice until just now. 

Honestly I've read all of it. Everyone has made excellent points. I don't think people should jump down anyones throat but I COMPLETELY understand where a few members were coming from, so ambrend maybe you can help me. 

You've said on one post that you were thinking about rehoming your boys because they weren't very friendly. At one point you were willing to let a person take the pregnant momma if they could. You also mentioned rehoming different types of animals. So please help me to understand your point of view on this because I don't want to jump down your throat but I just don't think this casual attitude is right!!! 

When you adopt an animal it's forever......... why do you want to give up so many of your animals? Do you have good reasons? Maybe i've misunderstood a lot of what you've written but your intentions haven't come across in a positive light, and if i'm assuming too much then i'd feel better if you explained you intentions. If I have misunderstood, I'm sorry but for now I remain frustrated and quite frankly a bit sad. 

sigh  I just don't understand.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



MopyDream44 said:


> Somehow this topic escaped my notice until just now.
> 
> You've said on one post that you were thinking about rehoming your boys because they weren't very friendly. At one point you were willing to let a person take the pregnant momma if they could. You also mentioned rehoming different types of animals. So please help me to understand your point of view on this because I don't want to jump down your throat but I just don't think this casual attitude is right!!!
> 
> When you adopt an animal it's forever......... why do you want to give up so many of your animals? Do you have good reasons? Maybe i've misunderstood a lot of what you've written but your intentions haven't come across in a positive light, and if i'm assuming too much then i'd feel better if you explained you intentions. If I have misunderstood, I'm sorry but for now I remain frustrated and quite frankly a bit sad.
> 
> sigh  I just don't understand.


Well if i where you I would be confused my self lol. I have kinda had a rough time with animals. The post about that i listed all my animals that I had rehomed: I recently had a horse that I had to sell because it was staying at my aunts and uncles and my uncle doesn't really like animals and my aunt got into drugs and went into downtown indianapolis and got beat really bad by her sister and 3 other guys and she was in accoma for over a months and even after that she couldn't walk because she got "drop foot" and she could take care of any animals. And that is what happened to my dog that was staying over there too. But it sounds like you don't think I didn't care that I had to sell then. I was heartbroken for months on end. That was the best horse I ever had and the best dog.

And about my boy rats, I was thinking about rehoming then so I posted it and then people made a lot of great points so I got thinking about how stupid I was to even think about selling my rats because they where skiddish. But I love my animals very dearly. I only wanted to rehome swiss periodicly just so she could raise her babies because I already have one litter and school is starting and i didn't think I would have time for them. I just wanted what was best for her. 

I'm sorry you thought i didn't care about any of my animals but i guess you would just have to hear my stories. I hope that cleared you up.


----------



## mopydream44

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Thank you for explaining, and I feel a lot better. I'm glad to hear that you do care for your animals. I must admit that I was getting the opposite impression. I'm sorry that your ratties got out, and I hope everything goes well. 

On another note: There were 15 ratties in my accidental litter! It is indeed a stressful but managable situation, so you already know what to do but don't get too stressed out over it! 

err p.s.
i'm also sorry to hear about your aunt


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

thanks mopydream


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

I think everyone kind of misunderstood you for a while (including myself), but just to clear things up for everyone, I can say after posting in the topic since the beginning that you are definately making a great effort to PROPERLY care for your rats. It makes a big difference when someone generally does care about their animals and is trying to do the right thing for them even though it proves difficult. Anywhooo keep me posted, I'm anxious to know how many are in this litter, like I said, if you get 2 again... I want you to pick me 6 numbers... 1 - 49 because I want your luck to win me some millions lol.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



renay said:


> I think everyone kind of misunderstood you for a while (including myself), but just to clear things up for everyone, I can say after posting in the topic since the beginning that you are definately making a great effort to PROPERLY care for your rats. It makes a big difference when someone generally does care about their animals and is trying to do the right thing for them even though it proves difficult. Anywhooo keep me posted, I'm anxious to know how many are in this litter, like I said, if you get 2 again... I want you to pick me 6 numbers... 1 - 49 because I want your luck to win me some millions lol.


Thanks you very much renay i had no idea that people where taking this the wrong way. If i would have known then I would have cleared it up a long time ago. But I will keep everyone posted and I will have pictures and stuff. I hope I will get 2 again. Then again it would be fun to have a big litter(play time wise)... But i know that it would be better for a small one though....


----------



## Rodere

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Why did you have to keep the horse and dog at your aunt and uncles? The horse probably because you don't have the land, but the dog? Where you're parents unwilling to have at least the dog at your home, or are you unable to keep dogs there?

It really sounds like you should be getting a job or something so that you can pay for vet care for your rats if you need to. A lot of parents aren't too apt at paying big bucks for vet bills.

Also, things would have gone over better if you'd tried to find a home for your boys to avoid other accidental litters. Not just because they are skittish. Have you looked up trust training?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Well I have a miniature pincher named kitty...lol... and she is really small and she is just so sweet. And my aunt fell in love with her and she kept asking if she could have her and I kept saying no. So I decided for her b-day I would get her a dog just like Kitty and let it stay over there with penny(aunt).... But then she went into the hospital and nobody thought she would make it and my dad wouldnt let me keep another dog at my house and my uncle didnt really like animals. He just had them because of Penny. So there was this guy that would always come over and just LOVED the dog gatico (spanish for kitty lol)... So we ended up giving him to that guy still thinking that penny was going to die... But thats my story.....


I have been trying to get into babysitting and grass cuting but it's taking off really slow... 

P.S. I have been trying force training with my boys


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

the babies have arrived!!! she had them last night. In total she had 9. But sadly 4 of them where dead... :-( So we have 5 babies. She had them last nite and she was stressing out and she didn't know what do to or anything. So I left her in there all night and thus far into the morning. They didn't have any milk bands or anything. So I was thinking about what to do.... So I thought about giving them to cheese... so I took out her babies and introduced swisses babies with Thaddeus and nacho. They did fine together.... So i put 3 of them in with cheese. She sniffed around at them and then grebbed them and took them to her nest and starting licking them and stuff. She is sitting on them like she would her own but the babies arn't really nursing.... Then again they have only been in there for 10 minutes.... But I guess we will see


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Oh goodness, please keep us updated.


----------



## renay

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

You don't know how lucky you are that you can use your other rat as a "foster" mom. Wow, and you got lucky again 5 babies is a pretty small litter...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

from what i could tell there is3 boys and 2 girls... But I think there is 3 PEW 1 hooded and one black.... I dont think the black one is going to make it... its not squirming like the others it just lying there... but i will keep veryone updated


----------



## Forensic

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



ambernd said:


> from what i could tell there is3 boys and 2 girls... But I think there is 3 PEW 1 hooded and one black.... I dont think the black one is going to make it... its not squirming like the others it just lying there... but i will keep veryone updated


Does it have a milk band? Can you give it soy baby formula?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

They didn't have milk bands thats why i put them in with cheese in the first place.. but no she doesn't have a milk band.... what would i feed her with??? My sister has her babies formula over here.... Would that work i dont know what kind it is....


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

ok i found some soy formula it's called "Similac Isomil advance soy formula"...... would that be ok??? and how much would i feed it?

Protein.....2.45g
fat......5.46
carbohydrate.....10.3g


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

This is one of the things that can go wrong.  You'll need to hand feed the one, it sounds like, and maybe the others at some point. Here are some links to help you do this.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/orphans.html
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo8.htm
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/orphans.htm

Hopefully, one of the mothers will start nursing them... but until then, you'll need to feed every 2 hours (day and night). Sadly, there's no guarantee they'll survive. 

Hopefully, Cheese will take care of keeping them warm and stimulate them to go to the bathroom. If not, you'll need to do that, too.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

well the black passed... :-( ..... So should I keep cheese and swiss and the babies in the same cage???


----------



## Forensic

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Providing the babies are being fed. If the mother who's weaning her babes tries taking the little ones they may not get enough to eat.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Well swiss isn't feeding them at all.... I tried giving some of them soy formula but they wouldnt take it...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****

Ok im starting to get worried now.... The babies arn't nursing from cheese or swiss and they arn't drinking from me.... What should I do??... There is like no milk bands on them or anything. I need help please!


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

How are you offering the food? Is it in a syringe?


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Initial Care for Offspring
It is difficult to feed neonate rats and they must be kept warm at all times. Hand-raised babies will need to be stimulated to excrete wastes (a damp warm Q-tip or cotton ball).

A lactating foster mother will give the babies a much higher chance of survival. The survival rate for hand-raising is very low.

Neonate rats need immediate nutrition and fluids. The healthiest initial feedings should be colostrum, which is the mammary secretion produced shortly after birth. It is high in antibodies that help keep babies healthy. Colostrum is also high in carbohydrates and protein while being low in fat. Itâ€™s easily digested and places little strain on the gastrointestinal tract

It is crucial that any surviving babies be fed colostrum for the first couple of days. If you can find a foster mother who has given birth within 24 hours this will not be as great a concern.

If you have a nursing foster mother that has not given birth within 24 hours, you will have to supplement with hand-fed colostrum or generously rub it on the foster motherâ€™s nipples to assure the babies get enough.

If there is no nursing dam available, there is a brand of colostrums called â€œNursemateâ€ available through Omaha Vaccine online. It is a good idea to keep colostrum in your home if you breed rats. The colostrum can be mixed with human infant soy formula for the first 48 hours of hand feeding. The babies must be fed warm fluids every 2 hours in their first few days of life.

To feed rat neonates do not use a syringe as it can cause the babies to aspirate the formula. You can buy micro nipples from wildlife rehabber stores online and keep them in your emergency first aid kit. If you do not have micro nipples let them suck or lick from a small paintbrush or the twisted corner of a paper towel dipped in formula.
http://ratguide.com/breeding/birth/labor_emergencies.php


My bad, don't use a syringe! Also they may need their waste elimanated for them unless the foster mom is doing that.

I'm sorry, it doesn't look to good... I hope they make it but I think from loosing half of them already and all of them not feeding there is something wrong with the babies causing them to not feed ): A birth defect of some sort. It's sad but that's what it looks like. Try elimanating the waste for them gently and see if they will feed after that.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

well cheese is licking them and they are using the bathroom fine... cheese is being an excelent mom for them even though her babies are much older. She is doing everything she should but the babies are just not making an effort to feed.... 

I did use a syringe thts the only thing i have.... and i cant get them to open there mouths though..... should i try to use a rag?


----------



## Rodere

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Try putting a baby in your hand and putting a little drop of milk in the crease of your hand. I heard someone did that once and it worked out for a while.

I've used a curved tip syringe before, but it was on 2 week olds, so that probably wouldn't work. I know some vets tube feed puppies and kittens, but I don't think you can do that with pinky rats. You'd have to ask.

When you tube feed, you insert a small tube into their throat to their stomach and use a syringe to put milk into their stomach. Again, you'd have to speak with a vet first.


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

If none of the suggestions people have given work, I'd say your best bet at saving them is rushing them to the vet and seeing what they can do.


----------



## OnlyOno

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

i'd try the rag dipped in formula. if swiss isn't feeding her babies, don't leave her in the cage with cheese, who is at least making an attempt. swiss may try to take her babies back from cheese, even though she isn't feeding them, and the babies will starve. how old are cheese's babies, i forgot? if they are not quite being weaned yet, then cheese's milk should still be enough to milk swiss' babies, and her flow may even increase for them.

tube feeding is very invasive for newborn rats, in my opinion, and i don't know if i've ever seen a tube small enough to get into a baby rat in our clinic. and you'd have to go thru the nostrils and keep the tube taped to the side of the baby's head unless you wanted to force the tube down their throat every 2 hours, and then mom might chew it off.

keep us updated. call rescues or shelters around you to see if anyone has a nursing mother, especially a mother that recently birthed babies, or if they have extra nipples, formula, instructions, anything for you.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

ok i have read everything about hand feeding and how to do it... i have tried everything to get them to nurse... I just tried a towel and they wont do anything when it's in there mouth..... I don't even think there is any rat shelters arounf me.... i dont know what to do....


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I believe you can also use a teaspoon or soak bread in the formula (if it's anything like guinea pigs)

They might not understand what to do when it's in their mouth, so make it so there's formula at the crease of their mouth so that they can taste it, and that should help them suckle it. Maybe that'll help?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

i already have tried that... seems like nothing is working.... I just contaced a rat rescue called "happy endings" and they dont have any lactating females and they advised me to call some pet stores to see if they have any lactating females... so i guess i will do that tomorrow.....


----------



## OnlyOno

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

good luck, by tomorrow they may all be gone though. see if you can crack their mouth open and put a drop of formula in there at least, if they won't suckle on their own. what is cheese doing with the babies?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

She is sitting on them with her other ones but the babies just arn't suckling.... :-(


----------



## twilight

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Force Feed. Get those mouths open! Once they get the taste they should start suckling.


----------



## lilspaz68

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I'm sorry but it sounds like nature is going to take its course with these wee ones. Sometimes a young mom will ignore a new litter, either from inexperience or there is something wrong with the eepers. If these babies didn't get a first feeding off their mom with the colostrum (milk with mom's antibodies since they don't produce their own antibodies til later, they "borrow" moms) ) they do not have a chance. If they got some colostrum they may make it if they suckle every 2 hours. 

Sorry ambernd.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I so sad to hear this & I agree, sounds like nature is going to take its course.

I'm nursing my babies with esbilac but I was fortunate that the lactation issues didn't show up until they were 2 1/2 weeks old. 

I admire Amber so much right now. She is a young girl handling some very grown up issues right now. I wish you all the luck with this & a big hug. ><


----------



## ladylady

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

My heart is breaking reading this.
I was thinking force feeding with a syringe-jam they're mouths open with it and press the plunger


----------



## mopydream44

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Let's not lose hope yet......maybe they started suckling! I hope it turns out allright!


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*



ladylady said:


> My heart is breaking reading this.
> I was thinking force feeding with a syringe-jam they're mouths open with it and press the plunger


this would most likely drown them... so not a good idea


----------



## ladylady

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Unless they dont have a cough reflex they will close thier airway, I would say there is a risk of aspiration but a chest infection V death...


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I would think aspirating would cause death as well... Their lungs are so tiny and fragile right now.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

well they have made it over night. They are still wiggling and squeking. They still don't have any milk bands though and I have been watching cheese nurse and i havn't seen any of them get milk. To tell you the truth I thought they where gonna be dead when I woke up this morning. I thank god that they where still alive. I didn't feed them all night. (not that I could get them to eat it anyway) But i don't know maby there is hope..... 

It's so cute because cheeses babies thaddeus and nacho are acting just like little moms (and one of them is a boy!). When cheese leaves the nest to go get something to drink or eat thaddeus and nacho will run over to the babies and lay on them to keep them warm! Then they will actually lick them just like cheese does!! It's the cutest thing I have ever seen. But the babies all seen healthy but they just don't have any milk bands and I havn't seen them nurse.

P.S. Thanks A1APassion


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Please don't give up trying to feed them. If they don't have milk bands, they may be slowly starving to death, which is a bad way to die. Continue trying to feed them. They may not live, but a drop or so every so often if possible will at least ease some suffering.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

ok i will


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Kimmie, aren't you close to ambernd? Maybe you could help out? It just seems so sad for the poor things to die from starvation.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I sure wish I were closer.

How old are the older two babies?

I'm wondering if maybe you start offering them formula maybe that would free up more Mother's milk for the wee little ones?

As for formula... what are you using?

I went with esbilac because I have used it in the past with animals when I did wild life rescue. It worked then & it is working now.

I did some reading today & I saw that others had more success with esbilac than the human soy formula... its worth a shot but you need to get this going right away. These guys don't have another night in them if they are not taking in at least something.

Is there any way you can get a pic of their bellies? Maybe there is a sign & you just aren't seeing it... do you recall looking for this with the previous litter & what to look for?


----------



## ladylady

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I cant bear to watch and you have some good support here. Im gonna shut ratforum and really hope when I come back tomorow there is some good news. Lighting a candle for your pinkies :hugs:


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Actually, we DO have a few-day-old litter I would very much be willing to put the babies with, but I am so busy the next few days (got adopters coming in droves to pick up/select their "kids") that I would need them to be driven as least part way. but yes, thanks Kimmie, I hadn't been thinking... If they can be driven at least part way (about an hour), we could put them in with the litter we have. I wish I weren't so busy, we could make the trip ourselves.

If anyone is between Greenwood, Indiana and Cincinnati, Ohio and could help out (and ambernd wants to try to do this), that'd be awesome.

I couldn't guarantee anything, but I hate to think of the poor babies starving.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Well it seems that they have got a little bit of milk in them because They have milk bands but they are small. I tried to feed all of them some soy milk formula and they wouldn't open their mouth then i forced them open (wich was VERY hard to do) and they got a drop of formula. Well make that half a drop of formula bescause the other half missed their mouths. lol.... But I got some pictures but right when I was about to take some of their bellies my camera went dead....

A1APassion- Cheeses original babies are 18 days old today.

KimmiesGuineas- Kimmiekins is in ohio and im in indiana. She is 2 hours away but i guess she is the closest I have. lol


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

........


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

......


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

.........


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*



Kimmiekins said:


> Actually, we DO have a few-day-old litter I would very much be willing to put the babies with, but I am so busy the next few days (got adopters coming in droves to pick up/select their "kids") that I would need them to be driven as least part way. but yes, thanks Kimmie, I hadn't been thinking... If they can be driven at least part way (about an hour), we could put them in with the litter we have. I wish I weren't so busy, we could make the trip ourselves.
> 
> If anyone is between Greenwood, Indiana and Cincinnati, Ohio and could help out (and ambernd wants to try to do this), that'd be awesome.
> 
> I couldn't guarantee anything, but I hate to think of the poor babies starving.


I am going to see if they continue getting a little bit of milk. And if they don't then I'm not sure if I could meet you halfway or not because my parents would just say "I'm not driving an hour just for a stupid rat.".... But I will get back to you on it. Hopefully they will start nursing better. But if no then I will try to talk my parents into. Thank you


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Sounds good. If they hang on until Sunday, we could probably make the whole drive if need be.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I believe see milk bands in some of those shots Pic 103 & 106 but they aren't belly shots so its hard to tell.


You didn't say what type of formula you were giving them. 

I really encourage you to get some *esbilac *because I am proof that they will drink it... even my adults like it.

The shelf life says 72 hours once opened but you can freeze it into very small ice cubes. I stress small cubes because you need so little. Mix the formula 50/50 with water leaning more toward water, if you know what I mean. Offer a very small amount at first & then watch them for about 30-45 minutes & see how they respond. Rats can't burb so offer small amounts at feedings even when they gobble it up. I have a very very small eye dropper, you can see it in some of my pictures. Give one a little, then go to the next & so on... by that time you can go back to the first one.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*



Kimmiekins said:


> Sounds good. If they hang on until Sunday, we could probably make the whole drive if need be.


Ok well if they make it till sunday hopefully they wont need to go anywhere... But I guess we will see...


----------



## ambernd

*Re: ****THIS CAN NOT BE HAPPENING*****



ambernd said:


> ok i found some soy formula it's called "Similac Isomil advance soy formula"...... would that be ok??? and how much would i feed it?
> 
> Protein.....2.45g
> fat......5.46
> carbohydrate.....10.3g



This is what im feeding them... I dont have a very small eye droping thats why i twist the corners of paper towels and soak some in it and when they open their mouth i ring some in there....


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Personally... I've never used the human formula

I've read from multiple sorces that some rats will eat it & some won't... since yours aren't, I'm guessing you are falling into the my rats don't catagory.

I've read that some prefer KMR (kitten formula) over Esbilac (puppy formula) & some swear by the human kind since a rats diet more closely resembals our diet over that of a cat or dog. At the end of the day... it is what the baby rats decide they like best that will get the job done.

The esbilac formula is about 4 to 5 dollars a can depending where you buy it. The eye dropper can be cheaper in some places outside of a pet store but seeing that you are dependent upon parents or your own two feet to get these items you can pick one up at a pet store for about 2 dollars. Mine is made of glass so it is easy to sterilize between feedings.

I have to leave for a meeting tonight so I won't be back online until quite late... good luck.

the breakdown on esbilac is as follows:

Crude Protein 33.0% Min

Crude Fiber 0.0% Max

Crude Fat 40.0% Min

Ash 7.75% Max

Moisture 5.0% Max

What you listed seems very very low comparred to that.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Well i took cheeses 18 day old out for a little while and put them in with swiss so the babies can have so milk without having the older babies hogging all the room. When I went in there earlier I knew for a fact that 2 babies where nurseing because when cheese heard me comeing she ran to the other side of the cage and 2 was still attached.... So I know that at least 2 of them are getting some milk so I hope it will be ok..... I will keep everyone updated. I will take pictures of there bellies after I eat dinner.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

ever since i took cheeses babies out and put them with swiss for a little while the babies have been eating. I took pictures of them and the milk bands look bigger on the pictures than in person.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

......


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

........


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

.....


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Those look like good milk bands. Maybe the 18 day olds would be more receptive to the formula and you can feed them that so the babies can have Cheese?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

kinda off topic but I just noticed that cheese is eating my leftovers in the background of some of the pictures!!! That sneeky little rat! God thing I was done eating..lol....

Yea I guess it would be better if the little ones had cheese to themselves... I would just hate to do that though... But I will probably have to. How often would I feed them and how much? (the 18 day olds)


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

If I remember correctly then it's every 4-5 hours, not including nights (but please, somebody with more experience let me know!)


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

so does everyone think it would be better to hand feed thaddeus and nacho?


----------



## ladylady

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Yay better news  thank goodness!


----------



## lilspaz68

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

You need to offer regular food to the 18 day olds, so they use less of mom's milk. This is the time they will really start to want to eat "adult" food. Put baby ceral, formula, Boost if you have any etc...veggies, some proteins, just like you are supplementing mom. They will still feed off of mom but it will start to taper off soon. Don't take Cheese away from her own babies, this will do no one any good. She'll manage.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

The 18 day olds definitely should be eating regular food now but they still need to nurse until at least the end of their 5th week. Many orphaned babies can be supplemented & they survive but survival & development is always better if they get a good start from Mom.

I won't suggest you remove the older two but I think it would be fine to sart feeding them the formula a few times a day away from Mom so the little ones can eat. (that is if they will eat the fomula) If the older ones reject the formula then you know that the formula you are using is simply not something any of the rats will eat & you will need to get something else. At 18 days they will most likely lick it right from your finger tips.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Well what I have been donig is taking the 19 day olds out for about 3 hours at a time and then putting them in with cheese for 2-3 hourse then just keep on switching. It that a good plan or no?


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I've lost track with who is who so I will just ask...

The new Mommy... did she reject the babies completely? Is she not nursing at all? How 

When the older two are with the newer Mommy, do they attempt to nurse her?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*



A1APassion said:


> I've lost track with who is who so I will just ask...
> 
> The new Mommy... did she reject the babies completely? Is she not nursing at all? How
> 
> When the older two are with the newer Mommy, do they attempt to nurse her?


Swiss (the new mommy) rejected them completly. She wont go near them. She will not nurse them.

The 19day olds dont try to nurse on swiss at all.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*



ambernd said:


> Well what I have been donig is taking the 19 day olds out for about 3 hours at a time and then putting them in with cheese for 2-3 hourse then just keep on switching. It that a good plan or no?



????????


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I guess you missed my earlier reply, here is part of it

"I think it would be fine to sart feeding them (the two older ones) the formula a few times a day away from Mom so the little ones can eat. (that is if they will eat the fomula) If the older ones reject the formula then you know that the formula you are using is simply not something any of the rats will eat & you will need to get something else. At 18 days they will most likely lick it right from your finger tips.

so... have you tried the formula you have on the bigger babies yet?


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Yea they love the formula but i would hate to take them away from cheese..... They love her. I don't know.


----------



## KimmiesGuineas

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Don't take them away completely, just every once in a while so the others can have a chance to feed off of her. The formula is just to double check the older ones are getting fed properly, and that way if they're eating it they won't *take up* as much of cheese's.


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

exactly... don't keep them from her completely just let the little guys feed first & without the bigger ones in there & as soon as they are satisfied... let the bigger ones back in to feed... Mom should be able to keep up with production so long as her diet is good.

What is Mom eating? She will need additional protein while nursing.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

she eats her fiesta rat food... dog food, fruits, veggies, boiled eggs and some peices of chicken...


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Amber - You may want to talk to your parents about the Kaytee Fiesta Food and getting something else instead. Especially with a nursing mom and pups.

It's pretty awful for rats and half of it, they can't/won't/shouldn't eat. The dried corn can mold and that's toxic to rats. Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal isn't digestible by rats (actually, Alfalfa isn't, period). It has shelled, whole and ground peanuts, which are really best as occasional treats. Some of it isn't so bad, but most of those things are like junk food to rats. It's definitely not a good staple food at all.

A lab block (not Kaytee - they have been linked to a cancer-causing ingredient in rats) would be best.  A high quality dog food would work in lieu of blocks.

(If this has been mentioned before, sorry to repeat.)


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

I'm about ready to order more lab blocks. I can see how much shipping would be for a whole 33 lb bag and if you are willing to give me half of the price (including half of the shipping price) I can order for you and you pick up near here or we could meet half way.

A 33 lb bag is $25 so you would only need to pay half that and half the shipping to get 16-18 lbs of rat food. I only need 15. I'm going to contact them and ask the price of shipping that size of bag.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

well let me know how much it would be total and then i could talk to my dad about it. Thank you poppyseed! To tell you the truth i've actually never used lab blocks before... i have actually never even seen them before...lol.... Again thank you very much!!!


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

The food itself would be $12.50 and it would last 1lb/month/adult rat. If you like it with the number of rats you have now I would suggest getting a 33lb bag when your amount drops down to 4 lbs lol. I always order when I have a month of food left to make sure I get it in time, but Kim's Ark is usually pretty good at giveing it to me in a decent amount of time.

The shelf life is six months, longer if frozen. I always freeze my bags not in use just to make sure they are extra fresh. Mine had come in nice 5 lb zip lock bags!

Great nutrition for your rats and you help a rat shelter on top of all that.

Kim's Ark:
http://www.kimsarkrescue.org/content/view/35
The prices are there as well just so you know I'm not marking up the price lol. As you can see from the link 33lb bags are $25 and smaller amounts are $1/lb + shipping. For a flat rat box you can get up to 15lbs for $15 plus $8 shipping. Pretty good for food that last 3 months with 5 rats!


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

i wish you wouldn't have gave me that website!!! I want everything on there!!! lol.... But say I want the 33lb bag. That would be $25 right? Then how much is shipping? Then how much would i owe you?


----------



## A1APassion

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

keep in mind that the harlan lab block has a shelf life of 6 months from the production date... only buy the amount you can use in that period of time

Often several people have to get together to split a big bag

I'm still looking for people in my area to do this with but either no one is interested or they use something else besides harlan


----------



## silverynitrate

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

www.theratshop.com sells harlan blocks in 4lb increments.


----------



## ambernd

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

thanks....!!!


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

Kim's ark sells them in 1lb increments. And procedes go to a shelter 

I know from the website there is a production area in Indy. Would it be possible to order a full bag from that spot?

And it last longer if frozen. Not sure how much longer though.

And as I have said, I e-mailed them and have to wait for them to e-mail me back for shipping info.


----------



## Kimmiekins

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

For picking up in Indy - I had a foster look into it for us, as she's willing to make the drive. I believe they told her that there's a $100 minimum order when picking up.

Eventually, I hope to do that. But I though the info would be nice to know.


----------



## Poppyseed

*Re: *READ THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLE*

If you decide to do that, I would be willing to buy a bag from you to help distribute the cost. I can buy it for $25-$30 like at Kim's ark and you can use the extra to help your rescue <3 Would be nice just not to pay shipping lol.

That is if you are going to Indy to pick it up. Not sure if there are distribution centers closer to you or not.


----------

