# Breeder Beware! Balou Angel Rattery



## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Hello friends, 
it is unfortunate that I must post this, but I simply cannot keep quiet about the events that have transpired this past week between myself and a certain breeder. I was entirely prepared and willing to have my interactions be private for the sake of their business and it's reputation, but for the reasons I explain below, I feel as though I have no choice but to go public with my comments.
I would like to post a warning about a rattery in Olympia, Washington, that goes by the name of Balou Angel Rattery.

I first found this rattery through an ad on Craigslist. Their only outlet on the internet is a Facebook page, and their earliest post is from January. I was mostly attracted to them because since they were fairly new, they had no waitlist for litters. I chatted with the breeder(s), Joseph and Angel about their rats, their care practices, and their adoption policies. They were friendly and willing to share, and even recommended me an upcoming litter with the temperament I was after. I had no plans of adopting new rats so soon, but my boy Gavvie passed away from old age sooner than I expected. The litter the rattery had recommended me was now available, and I decided to adopt three girls from them.

 I noticed the girls had lice nits within the first day of bringing them home. Not wanting to cause an unnecessary stir, I waited another day to make completely sure we were dealing with lice. Upon confirming this on day 2, I immediately notified the breeder. 
Joseph and Angel thanked me for notifying them of the lice, but withheld any offers to help with the several hundred dollar vet bill I was quoted to treat the problem. Their only offer was a $20 refund, but only if I returned the rats - which is honestly very unfair to the rats who believe they have a forever home now. It is absolutely not the rat's fault that they have lice and returning them to the breeder would not address the fact that I've brought lice into my home and my other rats are now at risk.
I have eliminated all other explanations for the origin of the lice, and even after a week of politely insisting that the rat lice originated with the breeder, I could not get them to confirm the presence of lice in their other animals, nor take any responsibility for the situation I was now in. I have been a rat owner for 17 years, not only have I raised litters but I have experience in dealing with all manner of injuries, sicknesses, and parasites in rats. Lice in particular I have helped treat multiple times in the past. The breeder told me that they had never dealt with lice before.
Eventually I pulled photographs from my phone of the day we adopted the rats that show lice nits in their fur, both to show that they definitely had lice when we picked them up and to hopefully help the breeder be able to spot the nits. I included tips about how and where to find evidence of lice in different fur types as well. The photos in question can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/6d3Qs

Balou Angel Rattery thought it would be appropriate to respond by blocking me.

I have nothing personal against Joseph and Angel, I believe they are good people who raise well-socialized animals, but I also believe that they have handled my situation in an extremely unprofessional manner. I obtained rats from them that needed vet attention, and not only did I receive no support from them, but they have actively tried to sweep me under the rug. If they truly valued me, my opinions, or the rats they have adopted out, they would have stayed in contact with me to make sure my rats were being properly treated for their lice. They would have taken my concerns and my advice seriously, and they certainly wouldn't have blocked me only 6 days after adoption when dealing with a problem that was no fault of my own.
Not only did a crate full of females with lice pass their "rigorous inspection", but one of the boys had to be pulled from selection due to a loud rattling noise when he breathed, a clear sign of mycoplasma flare-up and something I noticed immediately upon picking him up. 
Joseph said that they would not have sold me the rats had they known of the problem, but even after a week of insisting, advice, and photo evidence, they still could not confirm with me whether lice were present in their other animals. This makes me highly concerned for how long the problem could have gone unnoticed, how many lice-ridden ratties they could have adopted out, and how many other ailments they may be overlooking. 
Again, I do not think these breeders had any malicious intent and I would have been more than willing to stay in contact and update them on the health of my rats, but after they took no ownership of the problem, failed to notice obvious health problems, had no policy whatsoever for dealing with something like this, purposefully blocked me and then turned around to post how much they care about their rats and their customers, I feel incredibly cheated and ignored. They seem fully willing to help and chat with you unless you actually have a problem. I would absolutely not recommend their services to others.

The notice they posted on their Facebook page the day after blocking me from messaging or commenting on their content can be read here:









As you can see, notifying them of the presence of lice on day 2 and having photographic evidence of lice within the first day falls within the 24-48 hour window they mention as a reply to someone addressing this policy, a policy which they only created/mentioned for the first time _after_ these events. 
So, I'm doing as they say. I'm sharing my story and my experience, which was less than decent. It is an incredible shame because I truly wanted to have a good experience with this breeder, and I certainly wouldn't have felt the need to issue a warning about their services, regardless of the lice, if they'd handled this in a more responsible and respectable manner. 

Thank you for reading, and please be careful out there friends.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I don't know this rattery so I won't comment on it. I just wanted to tell you that treating rats for live it mites doesn't cost hundreds. You can buy Revolution on the web without a prescription from Canada. I got mine from Canada vet for about $35 including shipping. If I ever have a live or mites problem I got enough to treat 30+ rats. I only have 5 btw, lol.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Gribouilli said:


> I don't know this rattery so I won't comment on it. I just wanted to tell you that treating rats for live it mites doesn't cost hundreds. You can buy Revolution on the web without a prescription from Canada. I got mine from Canada vet for about $35 including shipping. If I ever have a live or mites problem I got enough to treat 30+ rats. I only have 5 btw, lol.


Most of the treatment cost came from the inspection, unfortunately our vet does not offer deals for bringing in multiple animals at once. I have Ivermectin on hand to treat lice, and I've never had a problem using it, but I have only used it on full grown rats. My new girls are tiny little things, and because I do not have the proper equipment for an accurate dosage, I opted to take them to the vet instead. On top of the fact that Selamectin is only available as a vet prescription in the US, I opted for it instead of an alternative treatment just in case lice were not the only parasite they had come with.

edit: thank you for the recommendation though. If I am ever in need of Revolution again I will keep your Canada vet idea in mind.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I do not know this breeder, well not by their rattery name atleast.

I think blocking someone is never a good way to handle a situation, though just as an outside party I don't know their reasoning or what led up to that.



> I was mostly attracted to them because since they were fairly new, they had no waitlist for litters.


Well with that mindset you can't really expect the best I think  Not all breeders are responsible or good. I think buyers have to be responsible as well and put some effort into looking into a breeder. Being a new breeder is definitely not always a bad thing at all, everyone has to start somewhere but IMO it would mean being a little bit more careful with checking them out. Experience definitely is a huge plus when it comes to breeding. Breeders have a million different things to consider, things you may never even think about at first until it comes up! A more experienced breeder will hopefully have gone through all of that and learned from it lol In this case the breeder may not have had an issue come up before where they needed a health guarantee or policy on it. Ofcourse you would hope they would have before but hopefully atleast they learn from it. 



> I noticed the girls had lice nits within the first day of bringing them home


It is too late for you obviously lol but for others this is a good lesson... ALWAYS give the rats you are buying a quick once over before taking them home. Make sure they are the correct rats and that there is no obvious health issues or injuries. It is also so much better to handle an issue right away before taking them home. 



> Their only offer was a $20 refund, but only if I returned the rats - which is honestly very unfair to the rats who believe they have a forever home now. It is absolutely not the rat's fault that they have lice and returning them to the breeder would not address the fact that I've brought lice into my home and my other rats are now at risk.


There is really no excuse for a breeder selling rats with lice IMO. Accidents happen even in the best most careful precautions sure, I could understand that. But one would hope a breeder would notice and not sell them until treated. I've never had lice thank god, but I was slightly worried I might have gotten mites once before and treated everyone as a precaution.

But their policy is really pretty common by almost all breeders. It has come up in breeder groups pretty often and almost everyone will simply have them returned and either refund or replace on any issue. I have a 48 hour health guarantee and they have to be returned to me. I would not pay their vet bills. Even more so in a case like this where the rats could have easily been treated with revolution. 

I definitely think a breeder should have their policies and guarantees all written out either on a website or given at the time of the sale. But if they do not have anything, as a buyer that should tell you that you are out of luck if anything happens. That the sale is as is, buyer beware.


I am a breeder, I am a major supporter of good breeders but a breeder could just be someone throwing random rats together to get babies sadly. Not all are the same or good. I have a post on red flags to look for- http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?310362-Breeder-Red-Flags

I can't say if this breeder is good or bad, they likely didn't handle this situation that well it seems. And I hope they do treat their other rats. I also don't like the fact that in reply to the post they wrote someone was asking about keeping rats in tanks and they seemed fine with that ugh


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

moonkissed said:


> Well with that mindset you can't really expect the best I think  Not all breeders are responsible or good. I think buyers have to be responsible as well and put some effort into looking into a breeder. Being a new breeder is definitely not always a bad thing at all, everyone has to start somewhere but IMO it would mean being a little bit more careful with checking them out.


Please excuse my paraphrasing, I could probably write a novel if I included all the details of this ordeal. By "fairly new" I meant specifically fairly new in the public eye as a rat breeder. According to their facebook page, they began adopting out their litters in January, but as breeders in general they advocated years of experience. They are mainly in the reptile business, and have been breeding lines of mice and rats, and then picked up fancier varieties to breed as pets. The feeder lines and pet lines are of course separate, and certainly more care is necessary for breeding pets versus feeders, but the point being that they were not new to breeding, just fairly new to publicly adopting out litters as pets.



moonkissed said:


> It is too late for you obviously lol but for others this is a good lesson... ALWAYS give the rats you are buying a quick once over before taking them home.


I actually noticed the lice nits right away, but did not immediately connect them to lice. I'll admit I was a little distracted by the fact that the breeder housed them in wood bedding- I dislike wood bedding because of it's dustyness and it's tendency to harbor parasites. When I saw specks on the rats, I attributed it to the dustyness of the wooden bedding, and made sure to listen to their breathing. When I brought them home and wiped them off, I realized they were nits and not dust when the specks did not come off. (Though obviously you're right in that this all would have been avoided if I'd been more thorough in my inspection.)



moonkissed said:


> But their policy is really pretty common by almost all breeders. It has come up in breeder groups pretty often and almost everyone will simply have them returned and either refund or replace on any issue. I have a 48 hour health guarantee and they have to be returned to me. I would not pay their vet bills.


I would not have expected them to pay my full vet bill, and I did not ask them to, but I did ask if they could offer any coverage, being that I would consider it a "pre-existing condition". I had already scheduled a vet appointment for the three of them before the breeder even got back to me about it, so I was full and ready to take on the expenses myself (which regardless of health issues or not, is just something you should do when getting a new animal anyway). The expenses go beyond just the vet though, considering the  extra care and cleaning (and worry) I must to do contain the problem, and the toys I had to throw away for safety. I have respect and understanding for that policy, of course I can't reasonably assume they're able to cash out for anyone who has a problem with their rats, and I'm really not nearly as upset about anything having to do with money as I am just with their demeanor and their lack of any admittance that they were the origin of this problem. To be honest, I really WISH the lice had originated here, because then I could at least take responsibility for it and this situation wouldn't have turned out like it did, but I've ruled that out as a possibility. 



moonkissed said:


> Even more so in a case like this where the rats could have easily been treated with revolution.


Yes, I _did_ treat them with revolution.

In hindsight, it's clear there are things I could have personally done to avoid this situation or avoid the breeder. Despite conversing with the breeder a month before adopting any rats and asking all of the necessary questions, I can fully admit that because of my want for some new ratlets to help me cope with the death of my ratty boy (because being ratless is truly depressing) I did not spend as much time familiarizing as I should have. Joseph and Angela were knowledgeable on the care of rats and were not shady people, but their response to this predicament has been completely juvenile. If they have a habit of blocking people with negative experiences from conversing with them or posting on their rattery page, there would be no way to know if this has happened before.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Aspen is great as bedding. Some brands are more dusty than other though. It is actually the best bedding I ever used and I tried a lot of them. Cedar and Pine is very BAD for rats. Not sure which one your breeder was using but my guess would be Aspen or they really wouldn't know much about rats at all.


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## SerendipityRats (Jul 1, 2016)

I have to agree with what has been said and while I don't feel this was handled completely appropriately, I really do not think this is all the breeder's fault.

I can understand not realizing the rats had lice when you picked them up - if you are not familiar with a particular type of bedding, I can understand thinking the nits were just dust from the bedding. Besides, new babies are always exciting! It can be really easy to overlook things when it comes to cute babies. But, all new rats should immediately go into quarantine if you have rats at home. I'm sure that since you have owned rats for 17 years, you are aware of how important proper quarantine is. Proper quarantine would have basically eliminated the risk to your home and your current rats. 

I can understand the breeder offering a refund for the rats with their return. That's pretty standard practice. Typically, if there is an issue with a rat from a breeder, they will offer just that - either a refund with the return of the rat(s), or perhaps an exchange of another rat. While this sounds just like someone returning a "defective" item to a store for a refund or exchange, it's more to "make things right" and keep both sides happy. If you choose to keep the rat(s) and forgo their return, that is your choice. I understand the breeder not offering any additional funds towards any of the treatment for any of the rats. If you did not wait for the breeder's reply once you notified them of the problem, you can't know how they may have approached the situation. Instead, you stated you already set up a vet appointment for multiple rats, which ended up costing hundreds of dollars. I hate to say it, but that was your choice and they should not be held responsible for that. 

With that said, they certainly should have taken this seriously and taken steps to notify other recent adopters and, of course, treat their own rats. They should not have blocked you. I am sorry you are dealing with this issue and hope your new little ones are better soon.


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

Well, the story continues. I hope this will be the last thing I have to say on the matter because I would really just like to move on with my life and put this awful experience behind me. I never would have asked to be "the negative customer", it is inexplicably frustrating and stressful doing all you can to do the right thing and come out looking like the villain. I may be the only one who has had a negative experience with this rattery, but once again, if their protocol is to block and silence anyone who has problems, there's no way to know that. 
This post comes in response to a new update the rattery posted on their page, which you can read if you like, I don't care to share it all here. I want to just walk away form this issue, but the update the they posted is so full of inaccuracies I can't leave it unaddressed. Now obviously, since I am me, I can only write this experience from my point of view. This is true for the rattery as well. Things are naturally not going to add up perfectly because we are no longer in contact and there is no way to iron out the details of what transpired between us individually after we went our separate ways. The only plea I can make for my case is that I am a very honest person, I have written and will continue to write my experience exactly as I have experienced it, and I do not aim to change any details or say that anyone was right or wrong during this ordeal. I have conducted myself as professionally as I can through all of this, but I cannot say the same for the rattery. 
Please allow me to address some points posted in their newest update, since I am unable to respond to them directly and also no longer wish to have any further contact with them:


> "since we are being harassed & expoited by someone"


First of all, I would just like to say that the entire update they posted is completely uncalled for. The communication I had with them after adopting the rats went as follows: I ask about the rat's birthdays and they respond. A few days of nothing. I alert them that my rats have lice. They thank me for the warning and assure they will handle it on their end. I ask if they plan to cover me any money or what they can offer me. They offer a refund for the rats and some treatment advice (diotomaceous earth). I say no thank you. I ask for an update. They say they have checked their litters and have found no lice. I politely insist that I cannot come up with any other explanation as to where the lice could have come from and I'm positive they had nits at the time of adoption. They say they have checked with other adoptees and they had not reported any lice. I remember I have pictures on my phone of the rats, and put them into an album with tips on how to find lice. I link them to the breeder and state that I have ruled out other possibilities for the origin of the lice. The breeder blocks me. The breeder posts the update located in my original post, asking for stories and feedback about their services, and how they care about the opinions of their customers. My original post above is the review I wrote of their services and my experience with them. My friend offers to post the review on their page since I am blocked and cannot post it. I agree. The breeder blocks my friend and writes the new update I am currently responding to.
Please judge for yourself whether this constitutes as "harassment and exploitation". I believe I had written a fair and accurate review of my experience with them, and have never been hostile in any way.


> During this point we noticed one of our males we brought had a slight giggling sound. We was immediately certain if it was him just bruxing or if it was a slight sinus infection, but we immediately pulled him aside infront of the couples just to be sure and later inspect farther. The male has proved perfectly fine and healthy by the way. Anyone wishing to see him can verify themselves.


I would hope that after so many years of rat ownership I would know what bruxing sounded like. The noise he made, from my observation, appeared to be when he breathed and was very distinct from bruxing. I am glad to know the little guy is doing okay, I was certainly worried for him.


> 3 days went by with no word and we was contacted by the girl that the rats she got had lice and though u knowing to us, and not a big deal, had decided to choose a very expensive vet and was going to do a treat-all product called Resolution and wanted us to help pay the $200-$300 vet bill.


It was two days. Two days had passed, there are time stamps on all of our messages. Two days falls within their 24-48 hour health notice policy. I chose the treat-all product in case lice was not the only thing the rats had. My vet is expensive because they provide good care. I don't know why they are choosing to word my attempt at the best care and treatment possible as a negative thing.


> Still to this day we have yet to experience any lice, mites, or fleas on or from our animals. We have heard very regularly from the friend, whom very happy with her animals and business with us, has delt with her own harassing ordeals from this girl. To the point the friendship has ended and contact severed by the friend.


The issue(s) going on between me and the friend in question includes, but is not limited to, the ordeal I have had with the breeder. To use and publicly state my own personal relationship problems to people who have no business in it is completely outside of this issue and absolutely uncalled for.


> This girl has created fake facebook accounts trying to post slandering and negative views on our page as well as online.


I have created no fake facebook accounts. A friend of mine offered to post my review in my stead. Once again, please judge for yourself whether my review was "slandering". It was certainly negative, though. And yes, I am posting it here online because the experience I have had is just as valid as theirs, and they have chosen to make it impossible for me to continue this discourse privately.


> She is pissed because we refuse to be exploited for money for what lice she claims we have.


I am pissed because instead of working through this issue in an efficient manner, I was treated with the decency of a teenager and am now having to deal with public and personal repercussions. I asked them _once_ if they could cover me any money. They said no and offered the refund. I did not bring it up to them again.


> She claims she noticed what looked like lice on the rats even on the way home from meeting us, again, the friend & her boyfriend never even heard a single word of this the whole car ride home together. Yet she never pointed the suspected lice out to us the whole hour she spent with them. And yet still took 3 home.


I have already explained multiple times when and where I realized they were lice/nits.


> She claims with the male she heard it making noises and pointed it out..she never even touched him. It was infact Angel who held him heard it for a split second and made a mere comment "we should pull this one just incase its a RI or something" infront of the couples.


I held him. I heard him. I put him up to the ears of two other friends present there at the time and they confirmed the noises. I held each and every one of the rats they brought to show us.


> This girl twisted this as with the whole truth in a relentless effort to tarnish our rattery and business dealings.


At this point they are making claims far more derogatory and degrading than I have made about them.


> Again, not yet once have we encountered any lice, mites, or even fleas on any of our animals.


The vet we took our girls to said that most people would not have noticed the lice and both the rattery and my friend said they have never dealt with lice before. So I really can't say I'm convinced, but for the sake of the ratties and other animals, I of course hope they do not have lice, or any problems whasoever.

This event feels as though it has moved from a bad business experience to a personal ordeal. All of my critique has been about them as business people, this sour transaction, and their improper handling of an unhappy customer- not about them as people. They have had no such decency for me in return. I have said over and over again that I have nothing against the breeders personally and that they are knowledgeable people, but if using all my available information to come to reasonable conclusion about where parasites originated, having insistent but civil conversation, and writing an honest review of my experience on a post asking specifically for opinions of their services is grounds for a long public rant about my personal affairs, then I have to say I've certainly lost respect for them.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Well if it makes you feel better their own message they posted sounds god awful. If I were a potential buyer and read that I would run away. They likely did more harm to themselves then good.

There are a couple rattery review facebook pages, if you have evidence like screen shots.

if you are ever looking for new rats in the future I would very highly suggest http://www.koboldrattery.com/


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## Kirara (Jan 28, 2012)

SerendipityRats said:


> I'm sure that since you have owned rats for 17 years, you are aware of how important proper quarantine is. Proper quarantine would have basically eliminated the risk to your home and your current rats.


Until now I have never had a problem when bringing in new rats, but I'm _so_ glad I chose not to be lenient about the quarantine. Things could certainly be a lot worse. I mention being at risk only because my house is very small, and while the rats are as far from each other as can be managed, it is not a 100% perfect quarantine (air ventilation and all). With several other roommates and animals, accidents can still happen despite my best efforts to contain it. Thankfully aside from the bugs though, there appears to be no other health concerns. Not to mention, this ordeal has made me understandably paranoid :/ so I'm cleaning incessantly anyway.



SerendipityRats said:


> I am sorry you are dealing with this issue and hope your new little ones are better soon.


Thank you, to say it has been a stressful experience would be putting it lightly. I could not have predicted the social and emotional troubles that have come out of this, and in an effort to keep this on-topic I won't go into any details, but I am certainly not going to let it get in the way of the care for my new little girls. They got their treatment and their check-up, and our vet offered us a second visit for a weight check and another dose of Revolution in a few weeks for free (if it is necessary). We can already tell they're bigger than just a week ago, they grow so fast!



moonkissed said:


> There are a couple rattery review facebook pages, if you have evidence like screen shots.


I was not aware of this, thank you for letting me know. I think I would really just like to leave the issue be, though. I don't really want to go out of my way to aggravate this any further, I have said my piece. I will certainly look for review pages of any ratteries I consider in the future.



moonkissed said:


> if you are ever looking for new rats in the future I would very highly suggest http://www.koboldrattery.com/


Thank you again, I believe rats will be forever in my future


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