# A rat's life at a pet store?



## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Are there any ex Petco/Petsmart employees that can paint a picture of the life of a rat that has lived at a pet store? Where do these rats come from? Are they ONLY living in those little glass cages? How long do they generally stay there? What kind of mental damage do these environments do to these pet store rats?


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Gee! Where to start?

You're going to get lots of opinions on this topic, trust me! 

I never worked at either store, but I can tell you what I do know.

From my personal experience, Pet*co *sells rats as feeders. They don't do much to disguise that fact. There are usually something like 20 rats in a tiny, non-ventilated glass aquarium. They don't get handled. When they are handled, they are rudely grabbed. That is where my first three rats come from. They are all great rats. They kiss me, jump on my shoulders or lap for treats, play with me, cuddle with me...

Pet*Smart* is different though, at least the one here. I like to think that they are smarter and PetCo don't know.

My other 2 rats come from Petsmart. They were somewhat socialized when I got them. PetSmart screens potential rat owners because they do not sell feeder rats. I know this for certain because I called corporate PetSmart. They were very emphatic in telling me that they DO NOT sell feeders. They are kept in small numbers, on clean bedding in a ventilated cage and fed Oxbow. 

Which ever store they come from, they won't get handled much. The Petsmart here has policy that doesn't allow employees to take pets out of cages to play with them. The girl I talked to at the store used to work at a different pet store. Where ever that was, she took the rats out at work and played with them, walked around the store with them and showed them to customers.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

Just another note,

The last time I was in Petco, they had their rats in a cage nearly the size of a Single Critter Nation. I've never seen more than 4 rats in a cage at a PetSmart. Their rats also cost more. They obviously care more about rats as pets, rather than rats as food.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I've never been in a Petsmart before so I didn't know there was even that big of a difference!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SwampWitch666 said:


> I've never been in a Petsmart before so I didn't know there was even that big of a difference!


Some people will tell you that there* is *no difference. Some people believe that unless you get your rat from 'reputable' breeder, a rat's a rat no matter where it comes from. 

My rats are all feeders and pet store rats. They love me, all are very social and cuddle with me. That's all that's important to me. 2 of them will come when I call them. As long as there isn't a lot of distraction! But my rats also live out side of the cage. They don't have pent up energy now that they aren't caged for the greater part of the day. As long as there's not a lot of excitement, they have longer attention spans now.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Pet stores are not a good place to get any pets. Rats in pet stores come from places called "rat mills". The rats are bred over and over and over again in small plastic bins the size of a shoe box. They spend their whole miserable and cruel life popping out litters after litters. There are no selective breeding like a reputable breeder would do. A reputable breeder breed rats for good temperament, health, loving personality...none of that is done in rat mills. Google "rat mills" and see the videos and pictures for yourself. I have no doubt that after seeing the pics you will understand why it is a bad idea to buy rats in pet stores like Petco or Petsmarts- it is sponsoring animal cruelty.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

I will be watching this thread 

It's not as simple as saying one box store is better than the other. Care can still vary wildly between two of the same chain stores. A lot of it is down to individual management, the competency/care level of the staff, etc.


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## Edie16 (Apr 24, 2016)

Hi, this is my daughters account but I have worked at a petsmart.

First, they get the rats from rodent mills. Once I had to pick them up from there and it smelled HORRIBLE! There was even cats there and they attacked the rats and Guinness pigs. One had his face ripped off by a cat and the workers didn't do anything about it. That was when I quit but I can still tell you how they lived.

They were weaned at 3 weeks, which is WAY to early, and they lived in small tanks. 10 gallons at most. And they were given kaytee food and NOTHING else. And they had there water changed once a week. I just thought it was normal so that's what I told my daughter to do. Thanks to the help from this forum they are happier now. After only 3 months they were live fed to the snakes. They had to give them to the snakes because they said that "they arne't cute anymore". When I said that is wrong they said "they don't have feelings. Think about them as cardboard". If they had to they would just put them in a bag and throw them away. NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM PETSMART!!


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

I used to work at PetSmart.

Their rats are bred in mills, which means they are not selected for health and temperament. They are weaned too early and not raised in stimulating environments. 

That said, the rats at the PetSmart I worked at were always very social and friendly! Our pet care associates played with them every day and were knowledgeable regarding their care. We refused to sell rats if we suspected they were going to be used as feeders. I was very proud of the way we handled our rats in the store, even if I detest the idea of rat mills. Our rats also received adequate vet care. We deviated from the PetSmart rat care policy because we knew that x bedding was too dusty or y food wasn't that great. Cages were cleaned twice a day.

Our PetSmart was also ranked #1 in the company at the time. We were on top of of our game. PetSmart's pet care training is very, very inadequate. I went through the pet care training and felt utterly overwhelmed when faced with care questions for animals I didn't already know how to care for. Birds? Nothing. Turtles? No clue. Snakes? IDK. And don't even get me started on fish. I learned nothing from PetSmart's training. We just happened to have a staff of genuine animal lovers who knew what they were talking about. 

Everyone at that PetSmart has left now, and it is no longer the #1 store in the company. The company (along with Petco) no longer sells live rats. 

TLDR Rat mills suck, but the quality of care inside of the pet store depends on the care givers themselves and has nothing to do with the store's policy or training (which is not very good). I would judge them on an individual basis, after asking lots of questions!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SaberKatt said:


> . The company (along with Petco) no longer sells live rats.


Here in Texas, they both still sell rats. I got my first three out of the feeder bin at Petco in February and then 2 more from PetSmart. PetSmart screened me before letting me look at the rats.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> Here in Texas, they both still sell rats. I got my first three out of the feeder bin at Petco in February and then 2 more from PetSmart. PetSmart screened me before letting me look at the rats.


It's a new thing here! They were still selling in February. I discovered the change last month. I'm not sure if it's a company-wide decision or not, or whether it is going into effect all at the same time, or if they're going to test things out and roll it out slowly. I was told from an employee that PetSmart made the decision because they were tired of their rats being used as feeders, but I don't think that's correct since Petco also made the decision and they DO sell feeders. -shrug-


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I heard something about an expose or some sort of coverage of rat mills that went semi-viral. That might have to do with why some stores are selling and others are not. 

I DO know this though, I called PetSmart Corporate about their rats and I was told that the company itself will not knowingly sell a rat for feeding purposes. They asked me about habitat and time I would be spending with them when I got mine. As soon as a I said Double Critter Nation and Wodent Wheel, they opened up the cage and let me play with them!


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I DO know this though, I called PetSmart Corporate about their rats and I was told that the company itself will not knowingly sell a rat for feeding purposes. They asked me about habitat and time I would be spending with them when I got mine. As soon as a I said Double Critter Nation and Wodent Wheel, they opened up the cage and let me play with them!


Yep! Selling feeders is against PetSmart's company policy. It's interesting to me how much PetSmart policy reflects a genuine care for animal well being, and yet they still purchase their small animals from mills, and their pet care training is so woefully inadequate. I loved working there for a while, but the pet mills got to me. That and the hypocrisy of having to sell shock/prong/choke collars even though PetSmart policy forbids their use in their training program. Like, you KNOW these things are bad, but you still sell them? But I guess that's big business for ya. =/ 

I'm hoping that the decision to stop selling rats will spread, personally, if only to stop the rat mills. I'm actually penning a letter to corporate in an effort to convince them to partner with local ethical breeders instead, the way they partner with local rescues and shelters for their dogs, cats, and (where I live) rabbits. I'm not optimistic, but the worse they can do is tell me no, right? ^_^


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

You never know! 

I know some of the people who work at one of the PetSmarts around here. All the people I've personally met there love their animals. Some of those people work with rescues. 

In sharp contrast, the manager at one of the PetCos will only allow non-profit organizations to have fund raisers if they agree to donate a portion of funds to _his charity of choice._


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

The Petsmart here takes pretty good care of their animals. They even give the budgies fresh fruit and veggies. I haven't seen rats in a while though, interesting to hear they may be phasing them out.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-pet-stores-can-be-whole-lot-darker-than-you-think_p1/


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-pet-stores-can-be-whole-lot-darker-than-you-think_p1/


While much of that is true, I typically caution against using PETA as a reliable source. They have a history of being misleading and manipulative. 

Our Betas were delivered to us already in those little tubs - whatever happened to them before then I can't say. That's something you'd have to ask the supplier. That said, those little tubs suck and most of the betas in pet stores deal with fin rot and other nasty side effects from being kept in filthy water without a filter. And my training didn't cover that at all. I didn't know betas needed a filter until one of our resident fish experts told me so - and he didn't learn it from his training. Like I said before, our pet care training was terrible. We were lucky enough to have genuine animal care experts on our team. 

With the feeders, you'd again have to talk to the suppliers. They don't tell us what goes on, and they're not actually affiliated with the pet store. I was under the impression that CO2 chambers were the most commonly used method to kill feeder mice/rats, but I suppose there's technically no regulation? I'd have to look further into that.

Our frogs were shipped in Styrofoam containers (to keep them insulated), not bottles. Again, I can't speak for what happens before they're shipped to us, and different pet stores (even within the same company) have different suppliers. Again, this is an issue that needs to be addressed with the supplier. It's not like pet stores have many options to shop around when looking for a pet supply, and animal shipping regulations can be weird and inconsistent. I never saw any of our animals arrive unhealthy, except for one guinea pig that had a neurological disorder (who I ended up fostering until a home could be found for him - we didn't sell him, though he requires no special care and should have a normal lifespan). That said, I am against large scale pet supply in general, and pet stores DO give them business. So they're not completely innocent. I just feel as though the anger and complaints aren't being directed where they're needed most. 

As for vet care, PetSmart has its own in-store vet and their policy requires them to offer vet care to all of their animals. We didn't hide sick and injured animals in the back. Our store didn't even have a Banfield in it - we would send a team member to one of our sister stores with any animals in need of care. The animals in the back are in quarantine. Not because they're sick, but because it's good practice to quarantine new arrivals. We did not return animals to the warehouse. Ever. I don't know what Petco or other large pet stores do. 0_o The only time we had a sick animal in back was if they were currently being treated, after already visiting the vet (IE, they were on medication). We can't put a sick animal out on the sales floor, obviously. That didn't happen very often though. Maybe twice during the two years I worked there?

I did end up leaving PetSmart for moral reasons, but it's not quite what is being portrayed in that article.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

SaberKatt said:


> While much of that is true, I typically caution against using PETA as a reliable source. They have a history of being misleading and manipulative.
> 
> Our Betas were delivered to us already in those little tubs - whatever happened to them before then I can't say. That's something you'd have to ask the supplier. That said, those little tubs suck and most of the betas in pet stores deal with fin rot and other nasty side effects from being kept in filthy water without a filter. And my training didn't cover that at all. I didn't know betas needed a filter until one of our resident fish experts told me so - and he didn't learn it from his training. Like I said before, our pet care training was terrible. We were lucky enough to have genuine animal care experts on our team.
> 
> ...


For sure - those are extreme cases.

And I have a whole tirade on why I deeply despise PETA, but I'm lazy. If anyone wants to know why, they can call me and we can spend the next 24 hours discussing in depth why I dislike them so very, very much. But I believe in the balance of Yin Yang, and every crappy something will have a little good in it.

Betas just live awful lives in general. From those little tubs that they arrive in to the tiny tanks that are marketed for them - it's awful. My mother used to give me crazy looks for keeping mine in a twenty gallon tank with some tetras.

Like you said, things vary from store to store, but I've seen a lot of nasty sick pets in my local Petsmart. I've also seen a lot of extremely caring and concerned employees.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> And I have a whole tirade on why I deeply despise PETA, but I'm lazy. If anyone wants to know why, they can call me and we can spend the next 24 hours discussing in depth why I dislike them so very, very much. But I believe in the balance of Yin Yang, and every crappy something will have a little good in it.


I agree with that 100%. And also everything else you said - betas live awful lives and things vary from store to store. -nodnod-


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Just for the record, I wasn't asking because I was trying to justify buying from there, I just suspect that my new rescue was probably originally bought from there and I wanted to know what his past could have possibly been. :'(


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

It is almost certain that any chain pet store you get rats from will source them from a mill... With smaller non-chain stores, it depends on whether they breed their own or buy from local breeders... You would have to ask the store to know. 

Life in the store depends on the care the actual workers give and the standards set by management. I have seen some horrible care / husbandry / advice given at petsmart and petco before (mainly fish-related... and petsmart DOES sell feeder fish...), but I have also seen quality care and advice at both stores, again, it goes back to the individual employees. In all the cases where I've seen excellent care, it was due to an employee that went above and beyond, the only case that I know of where excellent care was due to management was when my third cousin was a manager at petco (he sold reptiles on the side), so he made sure their reptile section was top notch and gave out good advice. When he left, things went down-hill. The other scenerios I can give you are of a petsmart employee that kept reptiles as pets herself, so gave out good reptile advice, a petco employee that kept tropical reef tanks, so was excellent with fish, and an animal care manager (or dept. head? can't remember the term she used), who went above and beyond with the rats... she handled them, was the only one that noticed when they accidentally shipped females with the males, etc. 

With independent stores, it is hit or miss. I have been in only 2 truly excellent stores (both were mainly aquatics) and one of those is now closed... I have been in some truly horrid stores too.. One that bred it's own feeders... The animals on display looked horrible and the smell was awful, so I don't even want to imagine what their rat racks in the back must have been like. 

IMO, unless you are buying from an independent good store that breeds their own or buys from local breeders, it is usually better to source your rats from a breeder, rescue, or even a feeder breeder (if they keep their animals well, etc.). I have nothing against those that buy from pet stores, that is how I got my start, and sometimes you have no other options. But I do think you run better odds of a healthy rat when you get one from an independent breeder (assuming they are breeding for health and temperament).


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Every rat you adopt comes with luggage. We're currently spending hours every day with our accidental litter and they are super friendly and love people. Likely pet shop rats are at least neglected if not out right mistreated... From a rescue they may be both, neglected at the pet shop and mistreated by their former humans. Either way rats can't speak so you don't ever really know what your rat went through to get to your home. 

When I do immersion with a new rat I engage it playfully and see how it responds... Is it fearful or friendly, does it know humans are friends or is it afraid of humans or is it indifferent, as in it's never really met a human before...?

Then depending on my diagnosis, I adjust my tactics accordingly. We adopted one rat that did fine during immersion... she wasn't afraid of people, but she had never been let out of her cage and was terrified by everything else. She would come when called but otherwise sat on my desk like a flowerpot to afraid too move for 3 weeks.... She had also been raised in a house with a lot of animals, that perhaps frightened her... She certainly wasn't abused, but she was very likely neglected and something terrified her when she was out of the cage... No, I'll never know what her former life was like, but for the most part we were able to make her indoor competent. Outdoors she always freaked out and washed out of our shoulder rat program no matter how hard we tried to reassure her. After a year, she finally got comfortable on short walks in our arms, but as soon as she was placed on the ground, she would tear away like there were bats chomping on her tail. Sadly, I couldn't undo that much emotional damage... and she pretty much had to stay indoors most of her life. I might add that although she washed out of our shoulder rat program spectacularly and couldn't handle being our family rat... she was and always remained a very sweet animal and was a best furry friend. She had a tendency to be reclusive when she got older, but she would come out every day at least once to say hello and eat... and she would come when called. I think we joked that she was our low maintenance rat, for the most part you didn't even knew she was there. There are a lot of things you can fix when you adopt a rat that's had a difficult life, and some things you really can't.


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## schnebbles (Nov 11, 2015)

I work at a Jack's that has been taken over by PetValu. Jack's was a smaller company in IN, KY and OH I believe. People who are related to "jack" still work in the stores/company. From what I gather, the care of the animals was much better before PetValu took over and drastically cut hours. Which results in the animals being put last. I don't like this ethic one bit. PV doesn't sell animals and they agreed to let us keep some (I think maybe it would be better if we had none at this point, for the animals benefit). 

The glass cages are not ventillated well at all. The top screen that you can't see gets so dusty if you touch it, dust falls down into the cages. When I would clean the cages (I only work 1 night a week now) I would use a razor to scrape all the stuff from the glass and try to spray down the walls with vinegar water. Most people just scoop the bedding and refill - not so clean. They put as many rats as they get in a cage. Just depends how many we have. Had 5 fairly large hairless in a small cage once. I finally moved them down to a cage that's maybe 15 x 20? maybe a little bigger. Bedding changes get done when certain people have time - seems some care, some don't. It's been a week in some cases which IMO is way to long, sitting in poop and looking disgusting. 

Thank God, we quit selling rats too, just a couple months ago. I was sooo glad! They get their rats from a distribution center and I'm guessing they breed them there but not sure. Our store also gets small animals from a school/career center type deal. They are taken care of well. 

It's sad, I hate petValu b/c of this. They only want the $$ - work faster, etc, to make them money and to heck with the animals and an entire wall of fish tanks. They don't get it I guess. Once I wrote to them and never even got a reply. Good customer service for a company who pushes customer service and shopping with the customer.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Ugh, that's awful! =/


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SwampWitch666 said:


> Just for the record, I wasn't asking because I was trying to justify buying from there


Pet store rats are a huge, hot button issue. Opinions vary wildly. You were innocently asking a question completely unaware that it might spark a heated debate. 

I understand your reason for asking your question. I think it's sad that a person can't ask a question of good intent, for the sake of their rat, without people jumping at the chance to champion their personal opinions. 

I think it's sad that someone should have to justify their reasons for asking a question.

It is even sadder that someone might feel that they should hide the fact that they got their rat from a pet store or are considering getting another one from a store.

The real tragedy is the innocent rat in a feeder bin or pet store that has just as much right to a happy life as any other rat but probably won't get one. That same rat is condemned again because its genes are from an undesirable background.

When I see my own rats that came from pet stores, my sweet Pebbles who sits on my foot begging to be picked up, when she falls asleep on my shoulder because she trusts me so much, it breaks my heart to know that there some out there who would just as soon let her die a miserable death than be happy in my home. And further, they would condemn me for giving her a home and love.

It's also sad that I probably can't even make this statement in defense of my rats, whom I love very much, without the comments I will probably get by saying these things.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

It's no secret that pet mills are awful things, but I didn't think this thread felt heated? Nobody has to justify where they found their best friend. My first two rats were pet store rats. They didn't have great immune systems, so they didn't make it to their second year, but I don't regret taking them into my home. My agouti, Jhoira, went everywhere with me and always made friends with everyone she met. She kissed EVERYONE. I had to stop taking her out so much when her immune system started failing, but I had some of my best ratty memories with her. ^_^ Her temperament was impressive considering she was a mill rat and the employees didn't seem to know ANYTHING about rats. 

I just wanted to answer OP's question with my own experience - the good, the bad, and the ugly! I thought we were having a good discussion, personally, so I sincerely hope OP didn't feel attacked!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SaberKatt said:


> It's no secret that pet mills are awful things, but I didn't think this thread felt heated?


This particular thread is not heated, but it was headed that way before the moderator stepped in to inform us that she is watching.

My only intent was to give SwampWitch an explanation for some comments. She said she wasn't trying to justify buying a rat from a pet store. No one should feel like they have to justify a decision to get a rat.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

:') Thank you guys, this has been a scary new adventure for me and I'm trying to do my best. I really do appreciate all the input, and Catty that comment about Pebbles gave me a lot of hope.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

You're doing great! And your enthusiasm is so heartwarming! I'm sure Lestat will be able to appreciate what a great rat mom you are in time. ^_^


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

:'D !!!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SwampWitch666 said:


> :') Thank you guys, this has been a scary new adventure for me and I'm trying to do my best. I really do appreciate all the input, and Catty that comment about Pebbles gave me a lot of hope.


You're heart is in the right place. I'm sure you will do just fine.


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## Dbinder1987 (May 7, 2016)

I'm a former PetCo employee, worked there for about 2 years. I loved my job there, until I took a management position in the dog and cat department. The level of care really is dependent on the people working at the stores. We had a great group of people when I worked there. We had a great selection of saltwater fish, and reptiles because we had knowledgable people with passions in those areas. The store looks like crap now. As for the care of the rodents, and rats specifically. We sold rats as feeders, but if we ever got any colored rats in, our store would try to only sell them as pets. Tanks were cleaned daily. They were fed lab blocks only. The cages we had were plexiglass, with metal vented tops, and a couple small vents on the sides. Housing numbers was based off rat size. I believe it was something like max 6 large, 10 small per tank, which was a little longer than a 20 gallon long fish tank, and a little higher. Water was changed every morning. For the most part, the rats were not socialized in the store. Sick animals, including rats and mice, were given proper vet care. Sick animals are kept in a back room but it is more so we could keep an eye on them better, and in the case of an animal succumbing to sickness we would find them first, rather than a child/customer. I'm sure our rats were from a mill, but they were usually in good health when we got them. We would try to pick them up correctly, but for some of the older rats, they had to be taken out of the cage by their tails.  sad but they would bite due to not being socialized. We did get a couple rats in that were pets that people surrendered to us to adopt out. They were not allowed to go as feeders, and while we had them, they were usually in my shoulder while I was working. That sure opened some people's eyes that never viewed them as pets. As for some other animals, our beta fish were shipped in a blue water, in a bag that was probably half the size of a snack ziplock. I was told the blue water was a sedative/stress reducer for shipping, the worst way something got shipped that I saw was turtles. It was literally in a box like the ones big macks come in!Sorry if this is a jumbled mess lol, it's almost 4 am and I have t go to sleep yet. If you have any questions for a former Petco guy, just let me know, I'll be happy to answer them


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Thank you for the insight!


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I'd also like to note that buying a rat (as a pet) from a chain store will more-than-likely not make much difference in that store continuing to buy / sell rats... There are many reptile owners that have to feed their reptiles and many of those choose to buy from petstores.. So demand is already there and there will be businesses (mills and then the petstores that buy from them) to meet that demand. So you buying a single rat as a pet really is not much when you consider the scale of things (basically a drop of water in the ocean). 

To that end, don't feel "guilty" for buying one, if that is what you decide to do. Some people feel so strongly about rescue (rats, dogs, cats, and otherwise) that they discourage purchasing at all, even from good breeders, in favor of rescue. At time, their encouragement to buy from rescue groups can come off very harsh and judgemental but don't let that bother you. 

At the end of the day, it is about selecting the right rat for you and keeping it well and giving it a happy life in your home. A petstore rat may come with more "baggage" in the form of mental or physical issues, but that doesn't mean that they can't make good pets. As I said in my other post, I bought my first 4 rats from petco... One ended up having mega-colon and had to be euthanized. The other 3 all died before 2 years of age (RI and stroke), but that doesn't mean that they didn't make good pets while they were alive.


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