# Food for thought



## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

This video explains why positive reinforcement should be the only way to train an animal. This video is aimed for dogs but it can certainly be for rats as well! 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuC4hEaZQeY&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Could you please stop? Just b/c you believe fully in trust training doesn't mean other people do not have other ideas/opinions that work as well... You just keep going at it trying to prove RD and people who have similar or other methods. It's wrong... Sorry for sounding crude but it bothers me.


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## MightylilttleMinies (Jul 17, 2013)

Everyone has the right to voice there opinions. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Yes they do but jorats was rather harsh about it in the immersion sticky... Everyone has their way and they can say it but don't criticize people b/c they don't use the same methods...


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just ignore it; the video is directed to those who already buy into it. 

By it's definition I'm a "cruel" "abuser" to my animals. Pass.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Nanashi, by no means are you cruel! I will ignore it...


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## Pandandelion (Oct 20, 2013)

As someone who has taken an Animal Training course in college and talked to professional trainers for animals all across the spectrum, I'd like to say that while positive reinforcement is usually the best method and most encouraged method, it's not the only method. Punishment is actually a very useful tool in training and, in training, it does NOT have the same meaning as it does in casual conversation. If used effectively, punishment is just as effective as regular reinforcement. 
The problem lies in the people, because the idea of punishment conflicts with out intuition, especially since many associate punishment with the textbook definition. There are many, many forms of punishment that can be done and are used for training and they are effective and useful, if done right. While we should aim for other training techniques before we go to punishment or avoidance learning (which honestly is 'worse' than punishment) sometimes these techniques are necessary and they are a legitimate form of training.


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

Pandandelion said:


> While we should aim for other training techniques before we go to punishment or avoidance learning (which honestly is 'worse' than punishment) sometimes these techniques are necessary and they are a legitimate form of training.


I agree. However, these techniques are often portrayed here as the quick and more convenient way, not a somewhat last-ditch effort for rats that can't just get to know their owners and environment in due time. 

Negative conditioning certainly has its place, but a new rat owner with an average petshop rat shouldn't necessarily be presented with it as a legitimate first step! What does a new person to this forum see when they hit the behavior section? Sticky #1: immersion. Sticky #2: trust training. It comes off as if it's an A/B choice like chocolate or vanilla. Why is it seemingly the FIRST THING this sub-forum presents to every single visitor if "we should aim for other training techniques before we go to punishment or avoidance learning"? Immersion amounts to exactly that for a new rat.

What seems like the prevailing opinion on immersion (that it has its place in unique cases) is not the impression this forum provides as a whole regarding it.


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## Pandandelion (Oct 20, 2013)

bazmonkey said:


> I agree. However, these techniques are often portrayed here as the quick and more convenient way, not a somewhat last-ditch effort for rats that can't just get to know their owners and environment in due time.
> 
> Negative conditioning certainly has its place, but a new rat owner with an average petshop rat shouldn't necessarily be presented with it as a legitimate first step! What does a new person to this forum see when they hit the behavior section? Sticky #1: immersion. Sticky #2: trust training. It comes off as if it's an A/B choice like chocolate or vanilla. Why is it seemingly the FIRST THING this sub-forum presents to every single visitor if "we should aim for other training techniques before we go to punishment or avoidance learning"? Immersion amounts to exactly that for a new rat.
> 
> What seems like the prevailing opinion on immersion (that it has its place in unique cases) is not the impression this forum provides as a whole regarding it.


That's because they ARE the quick an convenient way, which is why people gravitate towards it even though it is not in the best interest of the rat sometimes. Immersion training, when done right and at a slow pace, is fine for a rat and builds up gradual trust which is what you want. There is nothing wring with slow and steady immersion training; the problem arises when people jump the gun and get impatient. 
I have an extremely skittish rat who I've been training to be calmer through a combination of DRO training and immersion and while it works, it's also time-consuming and extremely extensive. A lot of people don't have the patience for this sort of training or the experience and training themselves to do this successfully, which is why they tend to gravitate towards quicker, easier ways.
Punishment does work. It will get your animal to behave as you want it. It is effective. Proper immersion is NOT punishment, it's conditioning.

I think it should be noted that we use immersion training with people, as well, except it's called exposure therapy or flooding, in a more intense case


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

I believe we are all getting confused with terminology here. I am making reference to the alpha-asserting dominant behavior referenced in the immersion pages. Flipping them over, holding them till they submit, etc. In my eyes this is distinct from (though associated with on this forum) flooding, i.e. putting them in a controlled space with you (that which they are fearful of) until they hopefully realize there is nothing to fear. The perceived opposite to this (trust training) would be putting the rat in a controlled space without you (like their cage) and gradually introducing yourself so that the rat comes to familiarize itself with you.

My concern is not whether or not there is ever a time anyone would want to use any of these techniques on their rat, but what relatively new rat owners make of the information and do with their rats. My concern is how easily "immersion" can be misused and misunderstood, in light of how enthusiastically it is recommended as a first-line technique suitable for use by the general rat-owning public. I would not have helped raise all this fuss if it was mostly recommended for unique problem cases, but a complete child who got their parents to buy them some Petco rat could easily come to this board, get the entirely wrong impression based on how it's presented here, and proceed to spend the night terrifying the rat in an empty bathtub because it was the first thing this board appears to suggest.


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## Charlottesmom (Nov 27, 2013)

bazmonkey said:


> I agree. However, these techniques are often portrayed here as the quick and more convenient way, not a somewhat last-ditch effort for rats that can't just get to know their owners and environment in due time. Negative conditioning certainly has its place, but a new rat owner with an average petshop rat shouldn't necessarily be presented with it as a legitimate first step! What does a new person to this forum see when they hit the behavior section? Sticky #1: immersion. Sticky #2: trust training. It comes off as if it's an A/B choice like chocolate or vanilla. Why is it seemingly the FIRST THING this sub-forum presents to every single visitor if "we should aim for other training techniques before we go to punishment or avoidance learning"? Immersion amounts to exactly that for a new rat.What seems like the prevailing opinion on immersion (that it has its place in unique cases) is not the impression this forum provides as a whole regarding it.


My issue with the stickies is the immersion one is open and has tons of comments, the trust training is closed and no comments, I think the TT stickie should be open for comment, positive or negative. Then when newbie rat parents come to the board they can read each one with comments and see other owners sucess or failure with that method. I think the comments help tremendously as long as they don't get nasty (yes, guilty! RD and I have smoothed things over). I think each method deserves feedback.


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