# Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated [Update]



## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi, my little furry baby is in trouble. She's only about 12 months, and about a week and a half ago she started to grow unco-ordinated and had trouble using her front hands to grasp food or ladders. This seemed to get worse, and she became listless and disoriented. 

And after about a week, seemed to recover extremely well. After two days of normality, she went back to her sick, confused self. After another two days of that, she seems to be getting better. And now she's sick again.

She lost a lot of weight [being really skinny and now weighing around 300g]. She can't seem to find her food, so I try to hand feed her baby food, but though she seems hungry, she only eats a little before acting like she's full and bruxing...

She got injections of Ivermectin for suspected mites- One around 4 days before the onset of the symptoms and one a couple of days after they started. I don't think the vet weighed her before injecting her, so I just hope it isn't an overdose. [Her sister had the injections too and is fine.]

From what I gather, it might be a pituitary tumour, but I hope not... She doesn't have all of the symptoms. I know that overdoses of Ivermectin may cause brain damage, but would there be this many ups and downs with brain damage? 

The emotional rollercoaster is driving me insane- she's one of my first two rats. So I was just wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to help her put on weight, what the problem might be, or any advice. :wink:

I would take her to the local vet, but they weren't very safe when it came to weighing the rats to accurately measure their injections...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Oh god. Did you see the vet give her the injection? Did you see how much was in the syringe?


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I saw her give the rat the injection, and there was about ...1.5mL, at least? 8O The second dose I had to give them was about 1.5mL. Seeing as the rats are still alive, I assume it was diluted.

Edit: Thanks to Sorraia, I realised that it was only a 1mL syringe, so the dose would have been 0.15mL. My bad!

I should have made sure the vet weighed them, I feel so stupid.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*



Cargo said:


> I saw her give the rat the injection, and there was about ...1.5mL, at least? 8O The second dose I had to give them was about 1.5mL. Seeing as the rats are still alive, I assume it was diluted.
> 
> I should have made sure the vet weighed them, I feel so stupid.


I just saw a similar post on another forum whose mouse got injected...the mouse died.


Then a vet tech came on and said they diluted the teeny dose in with 1 ml of saline. But that leaves. . 5 ml for the ivermectin. Your 300 gram girl should only have rec'd .02 cc's of Ivermectin. My Mattie was given injectable topically....25 cc's when she also was 300 grams and should've got .02 cc's 

Within a week she had her first mini-stroke. I got her on steroids and abs and she slowly improved, then she had another one big one, I got her partway back and then she had a final one and died in my hands on Christmas day.

Here is a pictoral timeline for your info.
Just home - Nov. 27








Her first mini-stroke, head tilt, awkwardness on one side, wobbly - Dec 8








The big one  =- Dec 16








My brave little girl comes back for awhile









Death at 5 pm on Dec 25


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

She's around 300g now- she was acturally heavier than my other rat at the time of the injection. My other rat freaked out when I put her on the scales, but she was probably 400g or heavier. 

Your poor ratty! She looks like she was a cutie... I symptahise. I wonder if my girl had a Ivermectin-induced stroke as well. If she's having recurring ones, it might explain the constant ups and downs. 

Though I don't know why the lighter rat, her sister, would be left fine if the vet gave them around the same dose. Poor thing, I wish she'd just tell me what was wrong. 

Edit: The last photo of your rat looks very much like my rat at the moment- her fur is staring, her eyes aren't usually fully open and she tends to sit on her butt and cross her front paws.

Thank you so much for the reply, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss. It's distressing to think that it was the vet's fault.  Any other ideas, anyone?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Maybe your little girl hasn't such a strong constitution as your other one? Why does one rat have myco flareups all their life and their cagemate or sister be healthy as a horse.

I am sorry you are going through this too..she doesn't sound well. 

((hugs))

I'd forgotten how much I missed Mattie, until I posted that timeline and realized what a short time she lived with me. *sniff*


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Aww... *Sympathy hug* I'm sure she appreciated how well you cared for her in the too short time you had her. 

I admit, my sick ratty was always the weaker one. I took her out this morning and I don't think she has long left. I had to clean her with a damp towel because she can't clean herself anymore, and she wouldn't eat anything- not even jam, cheese or yoghurt. She's just a baby, only a year old, and it's so hard to watch her starving herself to death.

I have to think of my other rat though, too- I had hoped that they'd grow old together, but it looks like my second rat will be alone for the second half of her life. Ordinarily I'd get a new baby, but next year I'm going to be away for a few days every week or two- I can leave the rats with my family and they'll feed them, but they might not give them the love and contact they need. So I'm reluctant to get a baby when I might not be around enough to give it the playtime it needs. 

There's the possibility of getting another adult rat, and I think there's a rat rescue in my city, but I'll have to email them. Or else I could just give my second rat lots of out time and take her with me when I go away- she loves trips. But then again, I don't want her to get lonely when I can't be there.

Agh, it's so depressing.


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## phaidraft (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I'm so sorry you're going through this.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Thanks for the support- it breaks my heart to see her like this...


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## phaidraft (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Give her a couple scritches from my girls and me. *hugs*


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Most syringes used on rats are one full cc, or in other words, one full milliliter. The little lines and numbers are actually tenths and hundredths of a cc. So just to clarify, when you say the vet gave her 1.5mL, do you mean he used one full and one half of a syringe, did he use a HUGE syringe, or was it 1.5 on the lines of that little syringe (which would actually be 0.15mL)? I'll see if I can get a picture of a "normal" 1 mL syringe in my hand so you can see what I mean about the size and better determine how big the syringe was..


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Edit again: Whoops. I checked the syringe again, and you're right, it was only a 1mL syringe. I missed decimal point, there. 8O So it must have been a dose of around. 0.15mL, in that case. Sorry!


Edit: Thank you, phaidraft. I just scritched her for you. :wink:


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*



Cargo said:


> Edit again: Whoops. I checked the syringe again, and you're right, it was only a 1mL syringe. I missed decimal point, there. 8O So it must have been a dose of around. 0.15mL, in that case. Sorry!
> 
> 
> Edit: Thank you, phaidraft. I just scritched her for you. :wink:


That's an easy mistake to make, so don't worry about it!  
It's especially easy because on the syringe itself the manufacturer never seems to put .1, .2, .3, etc, but just puts 1, 2, 3, etc on the little lines, making it that much more confusing!


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Silly manufacturers. 

In that case, it probably isn't an overdose. Thanks for ruling that out, it makes me feel better. My original thought was a pituitary tumour, and now that she's deteriorating further, she's showing more of the symptoms like head tilt. Poor ratty, I just tried force-feeding her baby food with a needleless syringe because she wouldn't eat anything otherwise, and she freaked out. I need to keep forcing her to drink though, because she's so dehydrated.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

See if you can get some Nutrical in her. It is available at vet offices, but apparently also some pet stores (I got mine from my vet). It is higher in calories and also has some vitamins and minerals in it. It is in no way a nutritional replacement, but it is a supplement that can at least get something into her. The vitamins in it are also supposed to help boost appetite too (it's either the B vitamins or the K vitamin, I forget which). So if you can get some Nutrical in her, it might help maintain her a little bit, but may also help increase her appetite.

Poor girl.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

She's a sick little thing. Thanks for the advice, I'll see if I can find some Nutrical on Monday, seeing as the shops are all closed on a Sunday. Well, I hope she lasts that long, she's really not looking too good. I really, really appreciate the replies, though.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Quick update- today her breathing is laboured, and she makes odd breathing noises ranging from rattling to a guinea pig like squeaking. Poryphin is regularly seeping from her nose, and she's getting dark crusts around her eyes- hopefully it's poryphin and not blood. She's eating when I offer her food, at least.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I am sorry Cargo. Keep her hydrated as well. Does she have a head tilt?


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

She has a whole body tilt, heh. She splays her legs off to the right, tilted to the left so that she's leaning on her shoulders. As far as I've observed, no head tilt and no circling. 

An odd thing, though- she bruxes faaar more than usual. If she eats a tiny bite of food, she ignores the rest, tilts to the side and bruxes with her eyes half-closed. I wonder if she's delirious? I'm assuming the bruxing is out of some confused contentment, which is my only indication that she isn't suffering horribly. She doesn't seem to be in pain, there's no sqeaking, and the heavy breathing only comes in bursts. I'm rambling now, I would just rather PTS than let her suffer, and I can't be sure if she is.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

There is also pain and stress bruxing...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

PT rats have a tendency to brux a lot more than normal...so I would assume its a neurological thing, eases the pressure in their head maybe?

12 months is soo young for PT but it can happen.

This is my girl Ariel's case history of PT...

http://ratguide.com/health/figures/pituitary_tumor_figure_2.php

Do you have or can you get infant liquid ibuprofen? She's probably in some discomfort and the ibu can help with some swelling.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I read that case earlier- I had no idea that Ariel was your rat. [I swear, I think I've read every scrap of information on the internet on PT in rats.] I'm sorry to hear what she went through, but thanks for posting the information out there- it helped me when I was trying to work out what was wrong, and I bet it's helped others too. 

I can try to get a hang of some Ibuprofen, but what kind of dosage would you suggest? I'd hate to give her an overdose.

Stace: Ah, I'd forgotten about stress bruxing. I never considered pain bruxing because she looks so relaxed even now, like she always did while bruxing. You're probably right, though. 

Thank you both. 

Edit: After watching the videos of Ariel, I should mention that my girl is behaving extremely similarly to Ariel in the third video. She's more lopsided, but has the same look to her. Poor things, they just don't live as long as they deserve to, do they?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I can work out the dose for you if you have an idea of her weight and the concentration of the Ibuprofen. Make sure its just plain stuff.

The other case history, Maya, she was also mine, but Ariel is better for symptoms.

I find the bruxxing from PT is pretty relaxed, not so stressed, I honestly think there are 3 types of bruxxing, regular and happy, pain and stress, and PT.

the ibu might help with the pressure on her brain a bit. I prefer steroids but you cannot do much until Monday and we have to see if we can get her there. Is your vet a decent one?


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

There are only two vets in my area- the one I went to last admitted that she knew very little about rats, the other I'm not sure about. These are my first two rats, so I hadn't made rat-related vet trips until a couple of weeks ago for mites.

Once I get a hold of some Ibu, I'll let you know. Thanks for the help!

Here are a couple of photos of how she is at the moment- I hope they show up. [I don't think I ever mentioned- her name is Mocha.]


















I have to admit, the more convinced I become about it being a PT, the more hopeless I get. I feel like I'm just prolonging her discomfort when I should just let her pass, seeing as it's incurable.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Its up to you of course. I have steroids and meds here all the time so I treat them as soon as I see any symptoms. But as you said its incurable and been left untreated for a few days now (not your fault!) so you might want to consider humane euthanasia. I know lots of people who let them go right away.

Do you know what to ask for and what to expect?


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I wouldn't have a clue. I've heard that if the lethal injection misses the heart is can be a slow, painful death. Though I would have thought that it'd be the same procedure as dogs- a general anaesthetic and then the injection.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*



Cargo said:


> I wouldn't have a clue. I've heard that if the lethal injection misses the heart is can be a slow, painful death. Though I would have thought that it'd be the same procedure as dogs- a general anaesthetic and then the injection.


If the forum keeps going down email me

[email protected]

Some vets don't gas down first and its very important. They just go to sleep, then the vet will give them an IC (cardiac) or IP (peritoneal) injection. The IC can be difficult to manage since they are so small, so IP is used, but the rat is deeply unconscious and won't feel a thing.

Insist on the gas first, thats all I say. Have you an idea of what you will do with her body? I take mine home, I have a little ritual, wrap them up in fleece and put them in the freezer in a gift box until I can get to my sisters or my mom's where I bury them.
You can leave the body behind, but it can cost more.

I am so sorry you are going through this, she's soo young and so beautiful


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Thanks for tip on the gas, I'd hate to see it happen without it.

I would rather have her cremated and scatter the ashes, as I hate the thought being buried myself. That and I know she'd be scared alone in the bottom of my garden alive, so somehow it seems wrong to bury her body alone and in the open.

Here she is, enjoying better days:









It's heartbreaking, to say the least. She was always so cuddly and affectionate. She's so young, just a baby... Without lasping into melodramatics, it just doesn't seem fair.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Okay, I finally got a hold of some Ibuprofen. Any idea on the dosage?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Need the concentration of the Ibu and her weight now.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

She's just over 300g. (Two weighings said 300g, one said 325g.)

The best idea of concentration I can get from the Ibuprofen is "Each 5mL contains Ibuprofen in suspension 100mg." I guess that's 20mg per mL?

Gah, it took so long to get this stuff. At least I have it now, though.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I used 312 grams as her weight
low-end dose is .16 cc...high-end is .47 cc (every 4-6 hrs I think)

I would give her something like .4 cc


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Great, thanks a lot for your help. I'll give her some now- good thing I kept those syringes.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I gave her 0.35 cc, and she loved the taste of it, so no problems getting her to take it. She's actually doing quite well and has been for the last few days, so it didn't make a lot of difference, but I'm hoping it will later if she regresses. Anyway, it's nice to know that it won't be a struggle to get her to take it!

Also- tonight was the second time in the last three weeks that she's choked. I'm assuming that it's to do with the unco-ordination? It isn't to do with sticky food- the first time it was lettuce and the second it was a cashew nut. She's gotten out of the choking within minutes, but it's still pretty unsettling.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

My perfectly healthy rats choke for a few minutes so I wouldn't worry too much. Can you gently feel her throat? See if there's any lumps there just in case?

Glad she liked the ibu. Its always good to have on hand. Pain relief can make such a difference


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Alrighty then, I've heard that it's very unusual for rats to choke at all. Thanks for the reassurance, as well as everything else. You have no idea how much I appreciate all of your help, it's made the whole ordeal a whole lot easier. ^___^


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

not a problem  glad i could help/reassure. I wish I had people doing that for my intial learning curve, so I try to help people through theirs


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

Well you've definitely been a great help with my learning curve! It's great to be able to turn up at this forum as a newbie and still get help.


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## Cargo (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Listless, losing weight, unco-ordinated*

I'm sad to say that Mocha's gone. The last few days she was doing pretty well, but yesterday she went downhill. It got worse until last night she was lying on her side, struggling to breathe and making horrible throaty noises mixed with what was either wheezing or sqeaks of pain. 

I took her to the vet as soon as I could (this morning), and the vet didn't know what was wrong. It started looking less like a PT and more like a heart disease, only there was no blue skin, so it may have been myco, only the laboured breathing came on suddenly. We didn't know what was wrong, but she was obviously suffering, so I thought it was best to put her to sleep.

It broke my heart to put her in the gas box, I never imagined it'd pain me this much to have her go. Thank you for the help, you helped me to make her last couple of weeks more comfortable.


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## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm sorry  RIP Mocha.


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