# Possibly a ZGT



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Poor Rosebud really got the short end of the stick when it comes to health. Her breathing never recovered from her URI, after months of trying.

Now, she has developed a large lump on the right side of her face right below the ear. It seems solid, and I will hope it is only an abscess, but I know that it is very possible it is a ZGT. There is no scabbing on the lump, and the eye nearest to it had poryphin earlier.

I would like to know what to expect if it is, and how long it will take to overwhelm her. If it is an abscess I will be able to treat it.

She will be two in January or February, assuming the old owners had her age right. Eats HT, lives with a trio of SUPER sweet boys who love her to shreds, one of whom is two and a half and the other two are young, but very calm and affectionate bucks who don't rough house very much.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Looked at her teeth. They are badly maloccluded, and they were not that way before now- I think the lump has messed up her jaw. I don't know that she's able to eat at all. She appears to have lost weight, and is sagging a fair bit. Her coat looks ruffled, and like it is too big for her. 

I mixed up some cat food/cottage cheese mix for her and her and the other ratties ate every crumb. I am now soaking some lab blocks for her, and will most likely be offering a mix of soft foods, such as yoghurt, cottage cheese, banana, wet cat food, and soaked lab blocks/dog food to her.

I am calling my vet tomorrow. Hopefully I can get her in for a tooth trim, maybe they can do a test on the lump as well.

IF it is a tumor, should I try to keep her going a while longer, or euthanise right away?

I'm feeling rather unfortunatly certain that it is a ZGT, but will wait on my vet's approval before I euth her. I do love the little bugger, even if she's a pain and gets sick all of the time. I hope she can recover.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Bump. I'd prefer to ear your guys' opinions before I get to the vet, which will be sometime this week.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Can you take a pic of her and it? a full head shot would help. If its a ZGT you just have to make her comfortable until its her time. If its a molar abscess or mass that is a different story altogether. Location and how it looks gives me a much better idea of how to advise you.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I can't now. The soonest I will see her is when we leave for the vet's office. I have an appointment in an hour.

Hoping for the best. I am going to ask his opinion on how her quality of life is and what I should do. I'm hoping that with a tooth trim, she can still have some time. If not, I will say goodbye to her today. It's the right thing to do if she's in pain. (Trying to convince myself here. I have never PTS one of my own pets before. Was present when a family dog was PTS when I was 3. That's all.)


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## wheeljack (Mar 17, 2011)

I just had a rat with a ZGT and the tumor did end up causing a malocclusion. I also thought it was an abscess at first, but per my vet this type of tumor can easily get an abscess overtop of it which complicates things. I've got my fingers crossed yours is just an abscess that can be easily treated.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I just came back from the vet. It is a malignant tumor- they aspirated it. I will be caring for her as best I can on an all mush diet until she no longer has the desire to go on, or the tumor breaks through. Then I will put her to sleep. I talked to my vet about it and he said just call when she looses quality of life and he will put her down. He looked really sad when he came back and told me it was a tumor.

Her teeth were trimmed so that there's no risk of her scraping the roof of her mouth or anything with them, and she eagerly ate (slurped, more like) a rather unpleasant looking mix of wet cat food, peanutbutter, and cottage cheese. I have lab blocks soaking for her also.

I'm thankful as ever for my vet, and I know he will give her a peaceful passing when the time comes.

Here's a picture of the poor girl-

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...488335237_1339352162_32050446_310434135_n.jpg

You can see the lump off the right by her ear.

As of now she is happy, and that's the most I can ask for. It's going to be really hard when I have to say goodbye to her, but I want what's best for her and I'll do it for her even if it hurts.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. I am glad she is doing well now though and hope she has a lot more time with you.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Thank you for the sympathy. 

It is always hard to loose one, but I think it's hardest when you know what is coming, but don't know when it will happen. I keep telling her I'm sorry, although she doesn't know why, I'm sure. 

She has a lot of poryphin around the right eye, where the tumor is, and she stays fluffed up a lot, but she looks bright, so I hope that is a good sign.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Poor Rosebud, she just can't catch a break can she. She will be tough for now I am sure, and take comfort in knowing there are no URIs or tumors in animal heaven.

And a related question, how common are these ZGT tumors? I have not heard much about them until recently, do spays reduce the chances like mammary tumors?


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## DivineSheep (Sep 24, 2011)

Aww, poor baby!! I'm so sorry, I know what you're going through. We're all here for you.
You don't need to apologize to her, it's not your fault. Death is natural, even when we don't want to be.
You gave her a good, long and eventful life, and it meant more to her than you'll ever know.

I just want to say, though- don't be too quick to put her down. My first rat, Louie, was diagnosed with a cancerous tumor that couldn't be removed, and was given a week tops to live by my vet. He lived for 5 more months after that, and was a very happy and vital rat right to the end. He was eating, and craved attention. I was with him his last day, because I could tell he looked very tired, and I knew he was going to go.

Give your rat the gift of choosing when she's tired of life. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. She will give you so much love before she goes off to rattie heaven. They often do, when they know it's their time.

Consider this if your rat looks like she can take it. If she seems to be in pain, ignore everything I said. She shouldn't have to suffer.

Whatever you do, you have my best wishes. Try to stay positive, you really gave her all you could.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I am going to wait until she's either in pain or no longer wants to live before I PTS.

Thank you guys- I only wish I had her for longer. I have had her since last february, when I rescued her.

Kiko, I think they are pretty common. Rosebud has been spayed, so I doubt it would help any.

I stayed home with her today.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Here she is today- This is the good side of her face.










This morning when I woke up she didn't look too great- huddled in a corner asleep and very fluffed up. I think the lump might have grown very slightly. I've had her out with me for a while now and she's rattling around my bed happy as can be. She just settled in next to me for a nap and is making a very noble attempt to brux. It really isn't working too well though. 

Her right eye is constantly covered in poryphin, I wipe it off every once in a while. It doesn't appear to close very well either- I put my finger practically on her eye and she only partially closed it. It doesn't seem to be drying out, in any case. If her eye does start to get dry, whhat can I do? I was thinking some very mild, non-medicated artificial tears sold for humans would help. 

She's laying on my cell phone, and it's really cute. But I can't get a picture because I need the phone for that. LOL.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww she's so cute.

Yeah those non-medicated drops would work fine.

Perhaps she is in pain? Could you call your vet and ask about that, some pain medications might help.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

We were there yesterday and he didn't seem to think she was hurting. She doesn't act like it to me, at least from what I've seen of her normal behavior. She went back to her cage for a few minutes while I was downstairs and spread out into a big pancake and fluffed up and slept. 

If I see signs of pain I will definitly do something about it. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember a post here about using infant motrin in an emergency for pain?


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## TobyRat (May 24, 2011)

She's adorable and lucky to have such a great caregiver. 

I would personally assume she is in pain and ask the vet for some pain medication. It is often very difficult to judge the level of pain that animals, especially rats, are experiencing. The fluffed appearance that you mention could be one sign. 

If she has very little blink response when you touch her eye it is possible the tumor is causing some facial nerve damage. Non-medicated artificial tears would be ok to use.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I went to see how her blink response was earlier and she moved her head and touched her actual eyeball into my finger. I was glad I had washed my hands.

She can close it for sleeping, but she oozes poryphin. I think her body is trying to lubricate the eye. I'm going to try and get to wal-mart tomorrow for more wet cat food and cottage cheese, maybe some ensure, infant motrin, and eye drops for her. Poops look good, and I put a new box in the cage when I cleaned it that she promptly claimed. She loves boxes. 

She's wrapped in my comforter right now, watching me type. She looks very peaceful, and I could be wrong but it looks like she knows now. The look on her face is different- it's that wise acceptance many elderly people get. Not pain or discomfort by any means, she looks very happy, but she looks like she knows what is going on. 

She bounced around part of the day but has been sleeping next to me in spurts, and she seems to love to sleep on my legs behind my laptop computer.

I wish she could go with me to school tomorrow, I wish I knew how long I had. I want to stay here with her for her last few days on earth but I have to go to school. 

When I can feel her start to deteriorate I will be staying home with her, though. Parents and school be damned, I am not going to leave her when she is this ill, not when she doesn't have long. I owe her as much.

I feel calm right now, but I don't know how well I'll be able to keep it together when the time comes to say goodbye. I'm no good at goodbyes. I'll probably be howling like a baby at the vet's office.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Oh, and just to gross everyone out- rats seem to like a mix of cinnamon applesauce and fancy feast cat food..

ICK!

The whole cage is going nuts over it.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I am going to just continue to update this thread as her illness progresses.

I got her eye-drops and infant motrin last night and her eye is looking quite a bit better. She's been secreting less poryphrin when I use the drops, because they lubricate her eye. I believe her excessive poryphrin on that side is due to the tumor constricting her eye muscles making it hard for her to blink correctly. Her body is trying to compensate by keeping the eye extra wet. The artificial tears are helping.

She throws record-breaking tantrums when it comes to taking the motrin, it's berry flavored but she still isn't going down without a fight. Personally, I think it smells delicious, and human babies are supposed to like the taste, so why not rats? I suppose anything which comes in a syringe is the devil to her, though. She was on antibiotics for a very long time.

Her ear canal is blocked by the tumor and has developed a mildly yeasty smell. I am cleaning it out very gently twice a day.

She's alive and well today though, thankfully! Glad to see her every morning and know she's still ok.

I am now doubting my ability to know when exactly to PTS. She seems content now, and I, being human, want to keep her around as long as possible. I read elsewhere that someone suggested the rat be PTS after malloclusion occured and eating hard food was no longer possible..we are past that point now. She does not need to be syringe fed and will eat mush out of a dish.

I want your honest opinions about when the time is right. I do not want to cause her any unnessecary suffering. I keep thinking about how hard it will be to loose her. This rat is my rival from the mischeif, she and I butt heads a lot of the time- me and lady rats are just not the best match it seems. However, we love eachother very much and now especially since she is so sick she is spending a ton of time cuddled up next to me- she's in my comforter next to me, curled up in a ball right now. She seems so small now, not like a rat at all- her larger than life build (a pound, big girl!) and in your face personality are somewhat different now. She no longer seems concerned with driving mom crazy, and is content to do what she has never eagerly done- cuddled. She has not cuddled since I moved her in with friends after rescuing her. I feel so horrible and so powerless to help her, it's like watching her wither away. I give her everything I can and yet, it I know I cannot help her and I cannot get her out of it and the outcome cannot be changed. My rat is dying and there isn't a **** thing I can do about it, not even a little thing. The vet said he thought there might be bone involvement and the tumor went very deep and seemed highly agressive. Feeling it now, it wraps around the back of the jaw, goes right up against the corner of her eye, behind the ear, making her ear butt feel very large, (not at all like the other ear) and appears to block the ear canal entirely or almost entirely. The external opening is compressed by the tumor as well.

I'm looking at how she is right now, and I think it's getting close. 

How do you guys euthanise without offing yourself as well? Thinking about it is pretty much ripping my heart out of my chest and stomping on it. I'm so afraid I will make the wrong decision, do it too soon or too late, and I know no matter what I won't be able to come to terms with it.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Now I am watching her, and she is bright eyed and looks happy. For goodness sakes, how do you tell...?


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## TobyRat (May 24, 2011)

Good to hear the eye drops are helping her be more comfortable. All the care you are giving her right now IS helping her. I’m really sorry to hear how invasive the cancer seems to be, it sounds like she has gotten worse since you posted this thread just a few days ago. I know how much you are anticipating making the decision to euthanize her, and it’s very normal to have doubts about whether it is “the right time”. I can’t make the decision for you, but I will say that I try to let my rats go before they are in too much pain. I don’t believe your girl is fearing her death the way you are… She’s had a great life with you and not even the cancer can take that away. The right decision is often the hardest to make.


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## Sassafras (Nov 30, 2011)

In all my cases with rats and death, it's always been the night before that they have just stopped trying to live. I personally have experienced surprise. There's that week when it looks all better and then the day at the end where they just won't eat. And then the next day...yes. That day is the day when they die. There has been no need to put down any of my past rats, as they enjoyed life to the end with exception of their last minutes.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Sassafras said:


> In all my cases with rats and death, it's always been the night before that they have just stopped trying to live. I personally have experienced surprise. There's that week when it looks all better and then the day at the end where they just won't eat. And then the next day...yes. That day is the day when they die. There has been no need to put down any of my past rats, as they enjoyed life to the end with exception of their last minutes.


Rats are prey animals. They hide pain and illness until they are no longer able to, and usually by then they are dying or dead. That is why one day they appear fine, and the next on the brink of death. They could be suffering with immense pain the entire time, and only hiding it to avoid seeming vulnerable to predators.

Death from a ZGT WILL be painful, not only for the rat, but for the owner and caretaker of this rat to have to sit and watch. The tumor could rupture, press against the brain and cause seizures/strokes, cause her eye to burst, and so on. The whole point of euthanasia is to end life while they are still content, BEFORE they start suffering. Watching your rat suffer a painful death because you wanted a few more days with them will be far more mentally scarring than euthanizing them while they are still themselves would be.

Kinsey, I am really sorry. But you have been caring for her for however long, and you will know in your heart when it's the right time to let her go.


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## Sassafras (Nov 30, 2011)

Jaguar said:


> Rats are prey animals. They hide pain and illness until they are no longer able to, and usually by then they are dying or dead. That is why one day they appear fine, and the next on the brink of death. They could be suffering with immense pain the entire time, and only hiding it to avoid seeming vulnerable to predators.
> 
> Death from a ZGT WILL be painful, not only for the rat, but for the owner and caretaker of this rat to have to sit and watch. The tumor could rupture, press against the brain and cause seizures/strokes, cause her eye to burst, and so on. The whole point of euthanasia is to end life while they are still content, BEFORE they start suffering. Watching your rat suffer a painful death because you wanted a few more days with them will be far more mentally scarring than euthanizing them while they are still themselves would be.


I'm sorry but I do know and have been told by a vet multiple times that a rat will continue to be happy until they no logner eat. This lack of appetite is the pain. When they stop eating, it's time.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm giving her motrin and she's been bouncing around, happy especially considering all of what is going on for her.

She sure loves her snuggles, and I rented a movie for us to watch tonight, since she got ignored a bit today because my boyfriend was here. She got to come out and get petted by him though- this rat has had so many visitors lately I think she must be in heaven. Everyone who comes over here and hears about her wants to give her love- something about a sweet, dying girly rat softens everyone. She soaks it up.

Today her ear canal is entirely blocked by the tumor. The soft moosh has been loved by everyone in the cage and they haven't touched hard food since I've been offering soft stuff, although I do keep the bowl filled.

She is doing well, growing cancer or not. I took some cute pictures of everyone last night, here's a couple of her-













































The tumor has grown since then. Excuse the poryphrin, she's just trying to lubricate her eyeball. Ha. It's been much less than before, although it's pretty bad in those pictures.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Just want to let everyone know that Rosebud is doing well. The tumor continues to grow but she is still happy.

She's thin and her ear is getting yeasty from the blockage. We are going to the vet with everyone tomorrow, Rose is getting her teeth trimmed again, and everyone's getting ABs. I had a rabid URI sweep through. Icky! Mice and rats both got sick, both colonies. The only unaffected one is my little mouse boy, Augustus, who lives alone.

I think some Baytril will do the trick, though. 

Here is Rosebud last night, trying to finish all of the cat food/applesauce mix by herself.









And a picture I took monday morning-


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Poor lass, at least she still eating.

I know with some sick rats, they inhaled the mixture of purees lab block+oatmeal+ensure and it really helped keep the weight on.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I will definitly try the oatmeal, although I doubt she will be able to eat it. :/

As of now, even the smallest chunks of food fall out of her mouth. She has a dreadful time with eating, poor baby- anything she eats has to be able to be licked up and swallowed that way. She eats very slowly. 

She's stretched out beside me right now. It's rather alarming how thin she is, and she just felt cool to the touch so I wrapped her in my comfortor. Now, I felt her and she's nice and warm again.

We were at the vet today, her teeth are trimmed back again and I have the mice and rats on doxy for URIs. Hopefully it will also help her with her ear.

As usual, everyone who met the rats loved them.

Oh, and I found a louse on Romeo. Damnit. Going to have to break out the ivermectin.

Is it safe to give ivermectin with doxy and is it safe to give it to Rosebud? I don't want to make my little girl feel any worse.

Edit- I forgot to post a picture! I took this last night-










She was sticking her paws in her mush and getting it everywhere.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Aww haha, I saw it on facebook. 

Do you only use Ivermetin?


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I can't get revolution. Well, maybe, but I'd have to go to the vet for it. I might try Advantage, but it will probably have to be ordered online.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Rose is alive still, and she seems to be doing okay, considering. She is skin and bones now, and reluctant to eat anything that doesn't have applesauce in it. She has been having trouble staying warm, and spends a lot of time wrapped in my comforter. The rest of her time is spent playing and driving mom crazy trying to steal a bagel she cannot even eat. Her right eye is bulging and her ear is crusty.

But she's still with us! 



















And something bad just happened. I fell in love with some four week old baby rats today, one who is definitly high white, at the pet store. He is my favorite. He's going for snake food, and I don't think I'll be able to leave him there. He looked so confused, like, "Mom, why am I here? It's so empty.." He was snuggling a pair of PEWs who are also very young.

The high white was as black as midnight with a berkshire belly that created big triangles up his sides, he was STUNNING. And cute. And afraid, and alone, and tiny.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I ended up getting that baby rat, and it was not a boy.

That aside..I have bad news. Rosebud is doing what I can only call going downhill. Unless she dies before then, or somehow stabilizes, I am having her put down on Monday. I will stay with her until she goes to sleep. 

Her eye is bulging and appears discolored, she has no meat on her at all, and although she does seem happy, I cannot ask her to live any longer with this.


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## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

Kinsey said:


> Rosebud is doing what I can only call going downhill. Unless she dies before then, or somehow stabilizes, I am having her put down on Monday. I will stay with her until she goes to sleep.
> 
> Her eye is bulging and appears discolored, she has no meat on her at all, and although she does seem happy, I cannot ask her to live any longer with this.


So sorry to hear about Rosebud's decline. I kept hoping that somehow it would turn out all right. At least she knows you're doing your best by her, and she will die knowing that she is well-loved.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

She's actually doing much better tonight. This morning I had my doubts, but she snuggled with me while we watched Edward Scissorhands and then drove me nuts escaping the syringe and played on my bed. Oh, and she enjoys clam chowder.

I guess I don't know how long we have. Her eye is dreadful, it makes me squirm. It looks like she scratched it with her toenail- it's all grey and weird, reminds me of an ulcer or infection caused by and injury. She's already on antibiotics so there's nothing more to do for it, not when she's this sick. 

But we're hanging in there.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

She's still bounding happily around today. I can't even fathom how, I would be shrieking at the top of my lungs if I looked like her. The eye on her right side is, I believe, dead. It is grey and protruding and seems to be a very odd texture. She acts like she can see me out of it, but who knows. She's skin and bone and tumor, and sweet as ever. She drools now, it's quite sweet really.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I am going to put Rosebud to sleep tomorrow. I will make an appointment in the morning.

She is still as happy as ever and she loves her mush, and her cream cheese, and clam chowder, and ice cream and applesauce and cat food. She isn't giving up and her vigor, even deformed by her tumor, makes me cry. She's so strong. The reason I have made this decision is that her eye is completely dead. It's yellowish in the center now and I fear it will fall out of her head or burst. It doesn't pain her- she allows me to mess with it, put drops in it, and wash around it. However she cannot close it, even if I try to help her blink, and dirt/little fuzzies are sticking to it. From her behavior, she is not suffering- and she loves me so much it makes my heart hurt. I rarely put her in her cage now- she free roams on my bed most of the time and sleeps in my comforter. But whenever I come into the room she's right there with her grabby little paws, fumbling around for my hands so I will hold her and stroke her.

I did not make her take any antibiotics today, she has no need for URI medication anymore, and she hates it so much that I just couldn't force her to do it. I think she understood why, and sat there wisely while I pinned my squealing boys down and made them take it.

A grand little heart full to the brim with love is going to stop tomorrow and it's so, so hard for me to type this. I just thought you should all know.










I took that just now.


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## AlexP (Oct 26, 2011)

I am so sorry Kinsey. You've done everything you could for her, and Rosebud knows that. *hugs*


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