# Rats Bullying Dying Cage Mates



## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Here's some pertinent background info: I have 11 rats, all but two are related and been together their entire lives. There's papa Remus, at almost 2, his kids at 1.5, Iris at 3 (been here for all of kids life), and Ophelia who is nearly 1 (added in June). They all get along pretty well, except for Ophelia who is pretty cheeky. They live in a triple critter nation (feasibly could hold 15 rats, plenty of room).

Now, Remus has been ill since pneumonia in december. He never quite got over it. He is the alpha though, so I assumed the bullying was trying to take his place. Iris has always been mellow and submissive so she's always been a testing ground for the other's dominance, but even more so now that her mammary lump makes movement difficult. But, now there is Athena. She's pretty easy going...She has a pituitary tumor, however, so in the last two weeks has lost her ability to walk, hold her food, and see. 

The reason this is relevant is because all three are headed out the door, and all three have been being bullied. Athena even has a bite. They steal her food from under her. She is pushed around or avoided. I have known rats to be benevolent to dying cagemates, but this is typical bullying to the infirm, which rats are not known for. It's making it harder to cope with the impeding loss with bullies. 

Caius was also really sick before she passed and was ignored or barbered. 

There are times where they cuddle the sickly ones, groom them nicely, or seem to try and play but these are dotted with bullying and again, Athena has the first bite ever.

Is this normal? If not, is there a reason my rats just seem to not give a **** about death?


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## Velo (Dec 30, 2014)

That sounds very difficult. ):
I am not sure if the behaviors are "normal" myself.
I do however know quite a few people who keep large numbers of rats. They will often separate their "oldies" into a smaller colony. You might consider that? They could still have play-time together, but it may be easier if they have their own senior condo. Plus, you could make the oldie section of the TCN more oldie-accessible/safe while the younger ones could still have the set up of more active rats. Just a thought.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Unfortunately, whenever I separate my rats they act like it is the end of the world and get depressed. To the most part, the older ones or sick ones stick to one CN, but being confined to one and choosing to stay in only one seem to be a huge difference for my silly rats. Plus, it would get pretty lonely as Athena is going over the rainbow bridge tomorrow, leaving only Remus and Iris.


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## mimsy (Jun 8, 2014)

I'd probably split them, but i wouldn't necessarily split only the old ones from the younger ones. I'd split the group with the ones that seem the most bonded to each other. It may take a bit of time getting it right. I'd keep moving ones back and forth till everyone seemed happy and safe. Since it's a cn you could easily switch it up to 3 or open it all up when you are there and can watch behaviors. Even if you only closed off one of the sections for the ones that could be hurt if you are not there, and then open it during the times you are. That way most of the time everyone is together, but they are safe if you are not there still.

Rats in the wild typically live in adult groups up to 6. There can be larger groups and there can be smaller groups as well. This can be due to food availability, so obviously that doesn't have a lot to do with our domestic guys. However, even with high food availability rats will form different social structures and numbers in groups. In extremely large groups (much larger than your group) they will even do many of the bad behaviors that humans do, such as younger ones forming small cliques that will pick on the weaker. (think human gangs in larger cities) There has been a few studies done with rats on this behavior because they hypothesize that like humans when given a crowded situation they will have some mental breakdowns. 

My point is-since rats all have different personalities and different comfort levels-it may be that some of yours are not taking well to a larger group and when they see a weaker one they take the opportunity to drive it off. Making smaller groups may curb the stress on the ones that feel the need to have a smaller mischief. Again, your group is not a super huge over crowded one, however if you have someone in there who if they had a choice may only have one or two in their mischief, 11 may feel like too much of an invasion of space for it.

In your situation, since you have a very large cage which can be divided up to 3 times you can really play with the groups to see how the behavior changes and who really needs to be with who, as well as be able to open it all up at times.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I did end up taking the sick three and putting them in the hospital cage in my room, probably for a week or so. They seem content for now, more or less.

As to dividing the cage, I may try it. I would just hate for cliques to actually establish (like, having three alphas) and then the main group clashing when reunited or suffering when switched up (like if I needed to combine a pair in the hospital cage). Generally, there are only one or two that prefer private moments -- they usually explore more or less as one and most definitely pile together into hammocks (pictured here is at least 7 rats in one square hammock) http://i.imgur.com/c1hhOOd.jpg


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## PaigeRose (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm noticing the same thing. We just lost one girl and she was barbered incessantly to the point of cuts and bald spots. The other rats would walk all over her and push her out of the way in her last few days. It was so sad to see so she spent a lot of time outside the cage with us. Now our oldest is dying. Sophie, whos always been a licky lover, wants nothing to do with us or the other rats. Theyre pushing her around and stealing her food. We tried taking her out of the cage but she actually bit my girlfriend yesterday which is the most out of character thing she's ever done. I'm at a loss other than just leaving her alone. 

I thought about separating her to a small one-level cage but... I don't want her to die in an unfamiliar environment alone. As of right now my other 4 are doing fine. 

Nanashi, if I were in your situation, I would separate the 3 and maybe do play times with some of your more gentle babies.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

In my experience there are two different drives that come into play with sick and dying rats... Healthy rats will tend to care for and groom their elderly and sick comrades up to a point. At some point they seem to decide that the old rats are too sick or too infirm and they move away from them given room to do so. As Fuzzy Rat became more and more disabled Amelia took excellent care of her, keeping her warm, grooming her and being generally attentive... Then suddenly as Fuzzy Rat approached death Amelia vanished into the closet until after Fuzzy Rat had passed on... When Amelia went into congestive heart failure, Max disappeared into her metal cabinet until Amelia was gone and as Max was dying last week Cloud distanced herself. Keep in mind my rats have a house to free range, I don't know what would happen if they were locked in a cage together. 

I suspect there is some instinct that rats have to drive off the terminally ill or at least distance themselves from them. Or perhaps it's part of their grieving process, some humans have a way of disappearing when their parents or relatives get terminally ill too. Like you, I would have thought that rats would care for each other to the bitter end, but I've seen this strange behavior several times now. So I suspect it is normal.

I'm sorry about your impending losses... it's hard to lose best furry friends.


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