# Changing Our Approach



## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

So I've noticed recently a problem, and I wanted to talk about it a little bit. It seems that when there are people new to the forum, there are certain things that we might jump on them too quickly and too harshly for doing wrong. 

For example:
-Single rat with no cagemate
-Cage too small
-Doing something unhealthy with rat
-Pregnancy 
-Unwillingness to go to the vet

I think we've all been there, we've all made mistakes, and we've all learned from them. My first rat when I was 19 was alone for a few months before I figured out she needed a cagemate, and then they lived in a tank with a topper for probably a year... And I think I had 4 in this 10 gallon tank until I figured out how much room they actually needed and got them a huge flight cage. I'm not proud of it, but I figured it out, and now I try harder to give my new rats a better life. 

The problem is, when someone is new to rats, they are usually genuinely excited for their new pet, but have likely made the same mistakes that we all have made at some point (or might make in the future, who knows). I feel like if we immediately jump on all of the bad and don't include anything good, people are unlikely to stick around and benefit from this awesome forum. 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't tell people the correct way to do things, and sometimes I do get mad when someone is doing something irresponsible and refusing to change, but I just don't think that scaring them off is a good idea when they clearly need advice and help. I think that all of us are on this forum because we love rats and want to share our knowledge as well as learn from each other. I'm also not saying that we should encourage those who are breaking forum rules, like intentional breeding. I just think that our approach to how we offer advice might need some tweaking. 

I've been involved with other forums for other types of pets in the past, and the easiest way to make me quit, or anyone to quit, is jumping too harshly on an issue. I remember when I first got sugar gliders, I adopted a leucistic girl, and was immediately criticized for how she was probably inbred and had horrible genetics, and I went from being excited for saving this girl and getting a new pet to feeling like an idiot for loving my pet because she was inferior due to her genetic background. Someone local knew the breeder better than I did (I was 20 and stupid and found her on craigslist) and was able to find her family tree to prove that her grandfather was her father, and my beautiful baby glider was suddenly despised by the whole forum for something that was out of my control and knowledge. I stayed on the forum to lurk and gain some info, but I never really felt comfortable posting ever again because I didn't want to be yelled at if I made a mistake. 

Basically, I guess what I'm trying to get off of my chest is that we are all might be a little guilty of pushing people away who just want to love their pets, but might need some guidance. I'm all for tough love, but I think that we could really help more people if we altered our methodology a little.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

There is really no nice way to tell someone they are wrong. So I don't really think we can take a different approach. Maybe just being more aware of the words that we use. 

But all in the end we are trying to help someone, teach them, and help them give their rats the beat life they can. 

Some people do not like accepting they are wrong, and then others take it as a personal attack. 

We can't take the time to get to know them or ask them other questions on the threads if what they are talking about are not the same topic either because we are suppose to stay on topic.

I understand what you are saying there was another forum that I was on and felt attacked and I was getting offensive but after I thought about it and had time to think about it i realized that they were just trying to help and they made good points i was just letting it get to me on a more personal level then it should have been.

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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think it is often hard to phrase things the best way for people, and it is hard to get to know the face behind the computer. I'm not really an emoticon or slang girl, but I've found it helps me come across better to insert them in. I think, once people begin to talk to me they see I'm not rude but my advice is no nonsense. Especially when I'm on my phone, I try to help everyone I can throughout the day and this may mean I have twenty seconds to remember your post and address it before whatever in real life calls me back. 

Also, I've ranted about it before...A lot of people take constructive criticism as some sort of attack. That has to do with the receiving end of the OP more than the responder.

I speak from perspective because;
I've never been at a forum for pets before. I have crippling social anxiety that extends to electronic life. I've not been able to talk to many people for years, until RatForum. I came to this forum to talk about how to socialize my pets and met an insane man, Rat Daddy. lol. Then, I discovered my two males was actually male and female. I got him neutered, I had 13 babies (14 but one died), and I fouund homes for 5 with an excellent Zurfaces who helped train them down.
It evolved from there into a wonderful experience of me trying to help others and getting feedback that I need to change my approach or watch my wording. Here I am a year later and I think I've got it right but still set some people off.

I also want to point out that, from a perspective of a few with experience, trying to guide newbies who shrug off our advice or negate what we say...it's aggravating. It's hard to help someone who doesn't trust the fact that we may in fact know something better than you. And when about half our members are one-questioners, it's hard to develop a repertoire with them.


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

I'm just talking about the introduction threads, where people not only say hello, but ask questions, and then might feel attacked by the answers. I believe in the whole "you catch more flies with honey" philosophy. You can nicely suggest that someone upgrade to a bigger cage, rather than harshly tell them that the rats can't live in the cage because it's too small. 

It's all about wording and semantics. I think for every situation there is probably a good way and a bad way to give advice. If you've seen some of the recent intro threads, you might notice that the people are posting there and then immediately leaving and never posting again. I think that we could turn this around and get more people to stay and give their rats a good life if we concentrate on healthy advice in a positive manner.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

I was actually thinking about this earlier. I saw that in "Say Hello" people would immediately jump on whatever problem they saw with the care of the rat(s). I completely understand not agreeing with rats living in an aquarium or living alone, but some people can be pretty harsh. In the end you can only suggest things nicely because no one wants to hear commands from a stranger on the internet: it can come off as self-righteous and then they do not want to take in new advice at all. I am guilty of feeding my rats junk occasionally and not letting them out everyday for 6 hours, but most people _are_ joining this forum to learn, we just have to be nicer about voicing opinions.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

From experience, "cutie  does he have a friend?" and "he's so big; I would look into a bigger cage" come off just as well as "You shouldn't keep rats alone and here's why..." / "Your cage is too small and doesn't meet the requirements and here's why + suggestions on cheap good cages...."


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

nanashi7, I agree, a lot of it does have to do with the person receiving the advice. Some people will never listen. And it is hard to convey tone when you are typing, and something that you might mean to be lighthearted and come across as cruel. I love smiley faces and whatnot because it helps set the tone of what I'm saying. 

I'm definitely guilty of giving harsh advice. There is a point where the person isn't listening and I get frustrated and just tell them how it is. I'm more so worried about the posts that occur before that, before the OP isn't listening and just trying to show us their new pet, who needs a cagemate. There is a way to suggest that they get him a friend because the rat will be healthier without bashing the person for not having two rats. 

And not all posts are bad. I'm definitely not saying that every post we do is harsh. There is probably 10% of posts that could just be a tad bit more gentle


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

delilahrene said:


> I was actually thinking about this earlier. I saw that in "Say Hello" people would immediately jump on whatever problem they saw with the care of the rat(s). I completely understand not agreeing with rats living in an aquarium or living alone, but some people can be pretty harsh. In the end you can only suggest things nicely because no one wants to hear commands from a stranger on the internet: it can come off as self-righteous and then they do not want to take in new advice at all. I am guilty of feeding my rats junk occasionally and not letting them out everyday for 6 hours, but most people _are_ joining this forum to learn, we just have to be nicer about voicing opinions.


Yes, this is exactly what I mean.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

I agree that especially in the Say Hello section when a new member posts their introduction, a lot of members will immediately start pointing out what they're doing wrong and just leave it at that. It can come across as really judgmental and elitist. Like you've said, we've all probably made horrible mistakes when we were newbies. When I first got rats, I had no idea what I was doing. One just sort of happened into my life. I kept it in a really small plastic bin with a lid and only holes punch in it. I actually kept two in there. I had an 8inch wheel, and I fed them Kaytee lab blocks. If I had told everyone that in my intro, I would have been torn to bits. I have learned So much on this forum, it's really been an invaluable resource to help me be a better rat parent. So I think that in the Say Hello section we need to remember to actually WELCOME new members, not just start picking at them. Usually, the new people will go on to post more information about their setup and practices and whatnot, and from there we can offer advice and correction. I also think there's been a lot of assuming going on. It seems like as soon as we see a new person doing something wrong, we assume that they're not open to changing and are horrible rat owners who don't need to be keeping rats if they can't get everything right immediately. It took me a month or so to save up the money for a decent cage for my girls after I found out the bin was awful. None of us were perfect owners when we started, so we should remember that when we offer advice to people. Sometimes people are working on it as best they can. There is a difference between REFUSING to do anything to better your rat's lives, and working as hard as you can to get there because you're in a situation where you can't immediately change everything. I did my transformation bit by bit, and this forum helped me along the way. But yes, there are also just those stubborn people who don't want to listen to correction and basically just want us to tell them everything they're doing is fine. You can't help those 
people  


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## CleverRat (Mar 9, 2014)

I also think if a couple people have already addressed the problem you might not have to make another post about the problem. If 10 people are telling the person they're wrong they might feel like they are being ganged up on.


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## Marie5656 (Jun 1, 2014)

I think we need to remember that WE were all new to this as well, and I am sure we made mistakes. I mean, I knew I was going to get rats, and due to past experience where I felt I was uninformed about other critters when I got them, I came here first and observed and asked questions for a couple weeks. But some folks are so excited about getting rats, they may rush right out and get them without doing homework first.
I feel we need give everyone a chance to maybe even make mistakes and learn from them. And help them along the way. Isn't that why forums like this one are here? As a way to learn from the experiences of others?


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## Phantom (Apr 4, 2012)

I agree with a lot of things said in this thread. When someone is reading something someone else posted many times they do not get the emotion or can falsely place emotion on some of the things that are typed down. My words typed here are simply words, and to someone that's upset or frustrated they can sound completely different in their minds while they are reading them. 

I, for one, was not too great at meeting all the requirments with my first rat either. My first rat, Molly, was a spur of the moment buy who lived in a small plastic tank for the first few weeks of her life before I researched everything there is to know about rats. Some of the information was even false information, so she moved to a glass tank later on. It took a few months to get down her basic needs and requirements and find out she needed a cage mate. 

I've talked, and dealt with a few people with issues, non-rat related, pretty often. From experience, putting the idea out there for a new person that I myself was once in their situation or in a very similar situation would be a decent way to start off talking to them. Welcoming them is something we all do and it helps people feel a bit more at ease. I think it's a good idea for new people to know that we weren't exactly rat experts to begin with either. Lol. =P

As mentioned above in this thread, asking small questions is also a good idea. It gives the new person something to answer to and explain their reasonings. As users on here, we don't always know the face and the situation behind the username. Everyone on here lives different lives and expresses emotions differently then someone else does.


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## delilahrene (Nov 1, 2013)

CleverRat said:


> I also think if a couple people have already addressed the problem you might not have to make another post about the problem. If 10 people are telling the person they're wrong they might feel like they are being ganged up on.


This is definitely something that can be addressed. We do not all need to say the same thing in six different ways


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## EmilyGPK (Jul 7, 2014)

The best chance of get a care upgrade for the rat is to keep the person engaged with the community. I think it is possible to be firm without seeming too judgemenalt. Like "I would really encourage you to..." or "There is strong evidence that you shouldn't...." There are also some areas where people just disagree, so you are making a case, but other people could must evidence to the contrary. So newbies will take some time to observe their rats and work out what they really want.


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## rileys-mom (May 26, 2014)

I joined not long ago and enjoyed reading everyone's posts and I added to quite a few of them, even personal ones. However, I noticed that the few times that I posted something (even pictures) I got no response at all. It made me feel a little unaccepted. I just stopped posting.


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## Aeyna (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I wait for hours after I post pics for people to write something, lol. It is discouraging when you don't get a response. That's something else we all need to work on: posting in each other's pic threads.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

It happens to a lot of us. I have more than a few threads with zero replies. It is discouraging but it's not personal. 


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## Jackie (Jan 31, 2013)

On the flip side of this I want to say that we have so much access to information in this day in age. It would take anyone 5 mins or less of rat research to find out you need at least two. THAT is why get mad when people buy one rat. It's one of the first things you learn about rats so I just expect that when you want to have an animal and make that commitment that you do research. Then again, when people correct that and learn I am happy they want what is best for their rat. I really do try my best to gently nudge people when something isn't right but I definitely have a tough love standpoint on some rat advice because I want to get the urgency across when it's needed.


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