# Biting rat and new rat owner!



## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm totally new to rats and am learning from friends with rats and the internet. I've had hamsters most of my life, but never had smart little ratties. 

A couple months ago, I got my first rat, Gavroche (Gav.) (I was at the store with the intention of getting a couple female rats.) He looked so sad and lonely at the pet store and was the biggest rat there. I fell hard for him. He was cuddly the second he came out of the cage! I brought him home and things were going great! He peed on everything, but I figured that was a boy thing. He had an upper resp infection, so I took him to my vet, who guessed him at around a year old. A few weeks ago, he was playing with my fingers and got way too excited and bit me, just barely drawing blood. Nothing seemed aggressive about it. Everything i'd read online made it sound like he'd be very happy with a friend and I thought he's appreciate someone who could handle his rattie play. I went out and fell in love with a little albino (I think he's 6 months or so,) brought him home and named him Cecil. 

I fully admit to rushing things with Gav and Cecil. I pushed them waaaay too soon and too hard. Gav attacked Cecil, and I (with thick leather gloves on!) Got bit hard by Gav while breaking up the fight. It got infected within hours and I had to go to urgent aid. They've been seperate ever since, and Gav has settled down tons from the encounter, and while I was a little leery of him at first, I knew it was an accident. (Every morning, Gav comes out of his cage, and sits on my shoulder while I make coffee and breakfast, I feel I should mention this as well.) Gav has been rubbing his scent glands on me so much, that he is actually greasy and orange-tinted (he's creme and grey,) most of the time. 

Two days ago, Gav was out on the couch with me, and I was just tickling his back and without any warning I was aware of, he spun and sunk his teeth deep into the same thumb he had bit in the fight. I actually lifted up my hand and he was hanging off of it. There are also scratches where he grabbed my hand as he bit me. It's pretty deep and nasty, but thankfully not infected at the moment. I put him back in his cage and was completely at a loss. I have no idea what to do. I found this forum, and read the sticky on Immersion. I put Gav in the bathroom and swatted and scolded and every time he tried to mark, stopped him. He did eventually seem to "switch" and started crawling on his belly and seemed to calm down considerably. Unfortunatly, i'm absolutly terrified of my little guy now. I have no idea what to expect from him. I'm not sure if this is just a hormonal phase or if immersion can even help. Any help or advice anyone can give is greatly appreciated. Everyone on here seems very knowledgable and experienced. I don't want to give up, but everyone is telling me he's snake food.  Please help!


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## Grawrisher (Sep 10, 2013)

If you're really really lucky rat daddy will see this post, anyway the est of what he'll say is "unfortunately a biting rat is not a pet" so you just got to get him o not bite and so....immersion! There's a sticky, go read it, seriously immersion is magic, aris was bitin me too, but after some immersion were doing much better, if he accepts you as hi alpha (the purpose of immersion) and Cecil also does (do immersion separately) you could PROBABLY take them to a neutral area and try intros again


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

The biting isn't likely hormonal given his age. If you did immersion and he submitted than the biting should be fixed or close to it. Be consistent every day this week and reassertion yourself. 

I'm not going to jump on the It's Aggression boat just yet. The first bite sounds like play gone out of hand. This is why I personally say people shouldn't use their hands to play with any animal but rather a toy of some sort because they will associate our hand with being a toy and try to play and in their natural world that involves teeth and claws. Mistakes happen when they get riled up. 
The aggression displayed at rat number two you already figured out. It was you forcing intros between territorial males and an older male. We can rule this out as a concern. 
Now the last bite. This sounds like an "aggressive" rat I "fixed" via immersion recently. Turned out she was blind and partially deaf, so pets and such could startle her. She also had this idea that she was Queen. Immersion reinforced she was not and should stop. 

I don't know how to address your fear of your rat. I would say immersion has and will further address the problem of biting. Maybe you need to open up to him like he is with you. 


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Basically, my general rule is that if a rat bit you, it was on purpose. If it was a nip, it intended to nip you, if it was a chomp, your rat intended to hurt you. There's no benefit of the doubt to be given.

Don't be confused, a rat can groom the dead skin off your fingertips or even your lips without damaging a single live cell. If your rat strikes blood or bone, that's exactly what it was drilling for.

That said, with male rats hormones and behavior go hand-in-hand. Basically, most male rats are born with the proclivity to become an alpha rat. They challenge the other members of their pack and if they are successful, their brains cause their glands to produce more male hormones. The extra hormones make the rat more aggressive, larger and stronger. In nature the extra aggression would naturally be burned up leading in defending its pack. In a domestic environment your rat gets all revved up with no place to go. So instead of becoming a wise and gentle leader it becomes a vicious maniac. The fact that you chose the largest male rat in the store makes me believe that you might've actually picked a former alpha rat, or a rat with a natural tendency to go alpha. Moving into your home and living with you probably presented enough of a challenge to keep him emotionally stable, at least for a while. Then by adding another rat to the equation and because he's become more comfortable in your house, who started rising up through the pack order again. Basically, he's taking charge.


It's debatable, but not necessarily relevant, whether he has decided that he's defending his new roommate from you or if he is challenging you for leadership. The results of the same.


It's important to note at this point that once an alpha rat gets dethroned, it's hormone levels usually return to normal. So the debate whether it's an emotional problem or hormonal problem really never needs to be resolved. One goes hand-in-hand with the other. Fix the alpha aggression disorder and the hormones will subside, and in the surgical option, you reduce the hormones and hopefully the aggression subsides.


You cannot punish a rat. Rats do not understand punishment. But you very much can communicate to your rat that you are in charge. You are the only alpha in your pack and if he challenges your authority the consequences are swift and adversative. I was bitten once by a part wild girl rat and somewhere between being hurled into the air, hitting the far wall and sliding down to the floor she had a real epiphany. Biting daddy is a very bad idea. It never happened again. Rats are not stupid, and for the most part, aren't likely to get themselves launched into a wall if there's any way to avoid it. Of course, I did this by reflex action, so I'm not recommending it is a training technique, nevertheless if I didn't mention it, the point of the exercise would be lost.


The first time your rat nipped you you should have shut him down right there. But once he got away with that he started on his path to home domination. Now it's going to be a little bit harder to put the genie back in the bottle. Again, remember you can't punish a rat. Through immersion you're going to set up a situation where he has to challenge you and either win or submit to the reality that you are bigger, faster, stronger and smarter. You are his alpha and there should be no confusion or debate in his mind that he reports to you.


If you were a real rat alpha and he had nipped you, you can believe that he would've slunk away in far worse condition than the big bad alpha he bit. Rats rarely fight to the death, but as you have found out they will defend their social position with extreme aggression.


For liability reasons alone I never recommend that anybody undertake an extreme immersion. Locking yourself into a small space with a vicious and aggressive rat can wind up getting you hurt. That said, if you suit up with protective gear and settle in for what might take a long while, (depending on how far gone and stubborn your rat is) you might be able to put your guy back on the right track. Lots of other people have done it, and for the most part, most former alpha rats become very happy to be pack members rather than pack leaders. 

It's a twofold process, first to establish communication and to communicate that you're in charge and gracefully accept his surrender and submission as appropriate; than to follow it up every day until his hormones reduce to normal with playful interaction while maintaining your dominant position at all times. You don't have to be mean, but you might have to be a little pushy. You can be friendly and in charge at the same time. It's a lot like wrangling a toddler. When they hit the terrible twos, they start trying to push you around and you have to take charge of the situation without your friends and neighbors calling social services; loving but firm.


As to being afraid of your rat, that's a result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. The human brain has evolved to try to keep its body from getting bit by rats. Hopefully, if you decide to take on an extreme immersion, it will help you to not get bit. But don't forget you're looking for signs of submission, you're not trying to punish your rat for past bad behavior. Once he submits to your authority, you want to be quick at accepting his surrender and show him your appreciation and love. This is a visceral decision you make on-the-fly. Many people believe that when an alpha rat grooms a subordinate rat it's demonstrating its dominance. This is not true. And alpha rat demonstrates its dominance by kicking the daylights out of any rat the challenges its authority. It only grooms a rat that submits and shows respect. Once your rat backs down he will expect you to gracefully accept his surrender. It will expect to be welcomed back into your pack. So, don't be foolish and get yourself bit, but be prepared to change your tactics when he changes his. And again, remember you will have to do a daily follow-up until his hormones return to normal. You need to be consistent.


I think, because you chose the biggest rat in the store you set yourself up for a challenge. He may always have the propensity to go alpha on you. He's likely to always need a firmer hand than other rats might and more attention than some. He might even take on the role as your lieutenant and keep your pack in order for you. Which may not necessarily be a good thing, but doesn't have to be bad. You might have to show him respect by feeding him first, or taking them out of the cage first, but you'll figure that out as you go. But in any case, you can never let him push you around again.


Lastly, I just want to remind you one more time that no one is actually telling you to lock yourself into a small space with a vicious rat. If you do decide to do this, you know you're doing this at your own risk and under adult supervision and if it ends up with an emergency room visit that's between you and your insurance carrier. So this is me on behalf of myself, rat forum and all of the other members here telling you not to do it. If you decide not to take that advice, that's up to you and you are on your own.


Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Thank you guys! 

RatDaddy, I'm realizing a lot of mistakes i've made, one after another. Having never owned rats and only ever hearing wonderful experiences with them, I wasn't expecting or planning for the worst. 

My full-time job is working with horses and various farm animals. When you work with 1,000lbs of free will, you definitly understand what it means to be alpha. But i'm also comfortable in knowing what submission looks like in horses as well as exactally how to assert dominance without getting my head launched across the paddock. I have no idea whatsoever what i'm looking for in a rat.  I know belly-up would be a sign of submission, but aside from that, i'm lost as to what's a sign of aggression, fear, dominance and submission. Which is a huge cause of my fear. What I took for playfulness may very well have been a neon "LEAVE-ME-ALONE!!!" sign. Any help you can give me on that front would make this process so much easier! The internet does not, unfortunately, have lots of resources on this. (That I've been able to find anyway.) 

I did lock myself in the bathroom with him, and just kept swatting and pushing, especially when he bit or tried to bite, but like I said, not knowing what I was looking for, I have no clue if I did any of it right. I'm not sure when to swat, when to praise, anything. I feel like that is my biggest hurdle right now, just understanding my boy. I feel very much like I'm speaking English and he's speaking German and it's getting us both very angry and frustrated. 

I truly did not realize or appreciate just how different rats though processes are from other rodents. I'm used to rabbits and hamsters that, if they're aggressive, you handle the crap out of them and stuff their little faces with food. I've won over a few crazy aggressive hamsters that way. I'd like to right my mistakes and learn properly how to communicate with my rats, and again, I so appreciate any help anyone here can give me, since everyone seems very understanding and knowledgeable. I am very willing to learn, so please teach me so my rats and I can have a happy family!


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

And I did read through the immersion sticky, but again, not knowing signs of submission, it wasn't much help to someone as completely new to rat behavior as I am.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Other than the obvious latching on to your fingers or laying down in your lap for a nap, it's hard to explain rat communication. They are metacognative and they are trying to communicate with you once they realize you are sentient. So a rat is actually going to try different things to convey the same message until you understand. Likely he tried more than one way to get you to submit before he bit you. 

So the good thing is your rat is trying to adapt to reach out to you and the bad thing is your rat is changing it's behavior to get the same message across. It's like in your example, you speak english and he speaks german and you try russian and he tries spanish. Things can get pretty confused... But keep in mind he is testing your behavior as you are testing his. Mostly you are looking for changes, changes in his demeanor and behavior. If he's doing something else he's most likely trying to say something else. Also pay attention to any changes in his behavior after preening. Rats preen when they think. Rats need to think to change their minds and their tactics.

Otherwise keep in mind rats are very much like us. They are social animals, they are hunting, gathering omnivores, and they live in a structured society. Expect your rat to act more like a child or a human date checking you out, than a horse or a hamster. 

In my case Fuzzy Rat kept trying to reach out to me, I just didn't get it, then one day I realized that she was making the same motions to get me to do something and she was licking me when I did it to reward me for my good behavior. So I started listening and discovered she had a lot to say. Thankfully she didn't give up because I was particularly dense. It's weird, like understanding a first word in a different language, or even realizing the other person is talking to you in the first place. These kinds of experiences seem common among rats and humans doing immersion. Most people suddenly just get it as do most rats. It's more of an Oprah Moment than a gradual process.

I assume horses are the same way, at some point they stop kicking you and let you get on top. If you try to get on top while it still wants to kick you, I suspect things will end badly too. But I've never trained a horse... Follow your gut, be careful and test your rat as you go, he will be testing you. 

There's also a video you can watch on the immersion thread that might give you some ideas, but that was with a female rat so it might be a little different, still you will get some ideas from it.

Best luck.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Thank you! You are very patient and understanding and I see why rats love you so much!  I will try to find that video and dig even deeper into the immersion thread.

A little while ago, I brought Gav onto my couch (Where the two bites not involving Cecil took place and where Gav marks me the most. Definitely "his" territory.) I put a different blanket off my bed, on the couch (it's leather, which I'm sure is holding in his scent as well where there's no blanket on it.) I put on a heavy glove and 2 oven mitts. When he tried to rub his scent glands on me or the couch, I swatted him and said "no!" We reached a point where he started hissing and had hairs on end and wanted to rip my face off but didn't, and I wanted to push him into a challenge. I swatted and he bit (not hard) at the protected hand and I swatted and pushed and shouted "NO!" a few times and I could see the cogs in his brain turning furiously. As I stopped swatting, he flattened his belly on the couch and seemed to mellow out a lot. He then started looking for an escape, so I took this as submission (I have been following my gut, and his whole demeanor changed,) so I started gently petting him all over with the mitt and praising him. 

I did this for a while and then wrapped him in a towel and put him in his cage. He certainly has (before tonight) seemed to have mellowed out quite a bit, so I'm very much hoping I'm on the right track! He is such a sweet boy when he doesn't think he's in charge and I want to give him every single chance I can and stop him before he truly becomes "aggressive." I am so incredibly hopeful that I can do that having found this site. Please keep up the advice! I'll take anything I can get, I am so eager to learn Rat!!!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

An alpha rat in nature has an important job and a big responsibility. He makes decisions that will get his pack killed or keep them alive. He settles fights, decides who gets to join the pack and makes sure there's harmony in his society. It's rather amazing how loving and loved an alpha may be. And researchers have noticed that really excellent alphas often remain unchallenged long after they aren't the strongest rat anymore. 

But in a cage setting... all of the extra energy and size and leadership ability goes to waste. No decisions to make, no enemies to fight, no respect from his pack members and a hormonal supercharge keeping him in high gear. Think about a commanding officer coming back from the front in Afghanistan after leading his troops in life and death combat and his wife start yelling at him about the crumbs he left on the table. Sure he most likely should submit to his wife's domestic authority, but with all of the alpha hormones and acquired alpha mindset he instinctively fights back and when the challenge doesn't back down he loads his dad's old hunting rifle and things quickly go from bad to worse. Of course the soldier in my example would be happier in his own home than on the battlefield, even if he had to wipe a few crumbs up every now and then, but while he's in the grip of alpha disorder he isn't going to see it that way. Given time and patience most war fighters adjust to civilian life, for a rat it takes relieving him of his command first, but he would most likely be happier lounging around his cage than fending off predators.

Yup, it sounds like you are making progress and you can definitely see rats thinking. Eventually he should be able to come up to you and either nap on your or snuggle if that's what he did before. Every battle he loses establishes you more as his alpha and serves to reduce his hormone level.... But short skirmishes don't do much, they can make a rat more determined. The purpose behind immersion's long sessions is to work through the aggression and firmly establish your authority once and for all... to really make him think, not that he lost a battle, but that the war is over. Rat alphas don't fight with their subordinates every day for months... they fight until the challenger submits and never challenges them again. In boxing close decisions often lead to re-matches. But when George Foreman knocked someone out 15 seconds into the first round, that particular ticket never came up again. Rats are smart and don't repeat their big mistakes.

So remember, long sessions, no quickies. Make progress every session and be in charge, watch for signs of submission and reward nice behavior once it's apparent. Then end the session with a long bonding activity like snuggling or napping together, gently play or even doing stuff around the house together so he knows you have forgiven him and accepted him into your pack. 

As the hormones leave his system he should start to appear less tense and more squishy. Some people report that this seems to take a few days after your rat accepts your authority.

As to scent marking... there are many reasons for this. Often it's not territorial, it's just as likely to be navigational. Amelia pees when I put her down outdoors. When she's tired of play and wants to be picked up and go home she runs back to that exact spot to get picked up. She marks a spot so she doesn't get lost... and leaves other marks like a bread crumb trail back.

With males it's also sexual. When we took Fuzzy Rat out and encountered an area where there was wild rat activity. She would be walking along and suddenly freeze, then she would start sniffing furiously, then she would start preening herself. Once she felt she looked pretty she would start hopping along an invisible trail towards a romantic rendezvous like a teenager in love. Male rats mark trails to attract girls more that to ward off competitors. Leaving a scent trail right to the burrow might attract a bigger boy so it's actually a risk they take when looking for a date.

Remember, you are dealing with a very complex metacognative mind. Yes rats are small, but they have evolved for millions of years longer than most mammal species and they have lived by their wits not because of their size or strength. And with generations that can be counted in month's and evolution taking place with each generation their brains are more like an I-Pad than an old mainframe computer, slick, streamlined and efficient. No their brains don't crunch lots of numbers or store 80 years worth of experiences, but what they do they do amazingly well. And the one thing I learned from being a psychology major way back in the 1970's was that when you discovered some behavior in rats, it translated into human behavior almost exactly. Without some of the frills, like advanced language skills, math abilities, and broad generalization, their core processing ability is staggering. 

Rats for example don't usually get the word chair... because they don't necessarily generalize the concept of chair. Fuzzy Rat learned to go to the bathroom in parking lots before we went into stores... parking lots were black, my telephone was black, my wife's chair was black, therefore if you put her down on my wife's chair she went to the bathroom right away and if she was on my desk and needed to go... there was my telephone also black. She didn't grasp the concept of telephone, chair or parking lot, but black she got. So as you work with your rats, expect a few surprises and keep your mind open to an alternate view of the world. Some things will be simpler like generalization is very basic, almost childlike, (you pee on black) while other concepts will be very advanced like social status. Understanding your rat will depend on you grasping concepts the way they see them. Once you begin to understand, you will be amazed. And if you haven't noticed, while you have been working with Gav, he's been trying to understand and even to control you. Think about it... he's challenging and trying to control a being 100 times his size. That's like you charging an elephant.

So stay with it, keep your mind open, follow your instincts and push through the resistance, we've saved a lot of screwed up rats here. And as odd as it may sound, it gets darkest before the dawn... Gav very well might make a fierce last stand before he gives up, so until he lets you handle him easily, be careful.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Sorry, I haven't been able to keep up with this thread very well. 

Don't just sit there swatting him. For my rat that I talked about, I tried to do everything but you can skip over many of my steps. A submissive rat can take many forms. Maybe you get a kiss or a cuddle, maybe they roll over, or maybe they just stop biting you and are happy to walk all over you. I'll share my story; it is not the "Rat Daddy" immersion you'll read in the thread but I believe immersion is not something that we can universally define. Just like kids, rats are all different and some approaches will work and some won't.

For my biting rat, I tried being aggressive. She would respond with even more aggression. The worse I got, the worse she got. There was no way I was going to win against a rat that could bleed me out when my greatest offense was shoving her around. I really did try taking the "Grr I am more strong than you are" and it literally got me bit in the ass. We went from occasional bites that were usually the result of me fussing with her to her targeting me and seeking out skin to latch onto. I have the scars to prove it took me a week to socialize her. So. I back tracked. I tried to find where our boundary lines are. Keep in mind, my rat was a solo neglected rat who was blind and deaf. Not the easiest to get through to. I don't speak rat like a pro, but my male has (and had) been teaching me and I was earning my kisses from him. However, with this rat I would think "She said go left" and she would go right, if you catch my meaning. I was floundering to understand what was going on. I would get the signal for love me and then have a rat latched onto my hand. 
For the first three days of our immersion, I stayed out of her space. I let her take the reigns. She explored the area, she explored me. I didn't try to stay in her face or touch her that much. Throughout the exploring, though, I was getting her used to humans bugging her. She would bite me to tell me to go away and I would just sit there with my book. This rat had to understand I wasn't going away. I would read aloud, I would talk to her and praise her. I would ignore her or softly run my hand down her back. This also was one of the only points in time I was excessive in my response to bites. Rat Daddy mentions flinging his rat around...this is what I did. Every time she latched on I would get her as far away from me as possible. It was both a natural response and a calculated way to teach her that if I was bit she would fly. Flying, of course, is not fun. The goal wasn't to hurt her and she only ever was shook off about two foot away and six inches off the ground.
She got better with touch. The bites were down. I increased the amount of interaction; I showed her if she would sit on me or have me carry her I would take her new places and give her treats. If she began to get nervous or upset, I showed her that I would protect her and take her somewhere safer. I was just about able to lift my rat with one hand without concern.
Finally, she was handle-able. Once I had established our boundaries were such that I could fuss with her politely, and I was an accepted part of her life. We were a bit like roommates at this point. This is when I upped the expectations. She began getting disciplined for being bad. She was getting pinned and she didn't enjoy it. I'm in no way the "dominant rat" such as my male is who keeps the cage in order, who makes sure everyone behaves. However, I am the person to listen to. I am the person who will protect her, I will give her love, and she does understand that yes I should be listened to and that there were unfortunate consequences to this.

If possible, I would get your rat to the "roommate" place I got my rat to. You may be misunderstanding an alpha's role, as out-aggressing can sometimes be the wrong tactic. While getting him to be like a roommate, you should establish alpha-status over your second rat. Don't forget that rat is a player in your mischief and an important part of it. I mention this because I mentioned my male who rules the cage. He does so according to my rules. He listens to me and is my squishy baby-boy. He knows what I don't like and what I expect. This is when I intro'd my previously-aggressive rat to my dominant male. I did it in a wide neutral place. I kept my dominant rat on me and kept communicating what I wanted and expected, and he listened. This roommate was moving in and was to be a friend. The reason I did this is I found the hierarchy naturally asserted itself with minimal effort by me. She found her "fit in" place. I'm not sure if this would work with you or if anyone else would recommend it, but with a male who will listen to me and working with a rat who needed to learn I found including him in our sessions sped up the process to where we are today. Of course, we first had to make sure she wasn't aggressive anymore, that she was handleable on whim and I of course had minimal introduction procedures going on -- cages bar-to-bar, and once they met up with both restrained.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Your dominant male is your lieutenant rat. It's a relationship that some rat owners have with a certain rat... you usually feed him first and give him special privileges.... It gets complicated as he gets older and you may wind up protecting him as he slides down the social ladder. But yes, it's doable.

In the case of wild or part wild rats, you always have to respect their space more and you never really get them to submit more than being a friend... they don't really become pets per se... But they can become your very best friend given a few boundaries.

Naturally the dynamic involving both your rats will need to be taken into account, but you have to get Gav under control first. 

And finally yes... immersion takes many twists and turns. Everyone does it differently. And honestly every rat brings his own problems to the table as does every human bring their personality. 

The old methods that predated immersion were rigid exercises that often didn't work or took a very long time. Immersion is based on the immersion theory of communication, social order and an intelligent, emotional and learning animal. It's sometimes more like a compass heading than a street map. You know you are heading north, so if you go around the mountain to the east or the west it doesn't matter as much as that you get around or over the mountain and proceed north. You choose the easiest route depending on the terrain you encounter. And if you hit a cliff, you take a different route. It's about following your gut and adapting and never losing sight of your goals. And yes, a good old fashioned rat toss seems to impact on some rats that just can't appreciate a kinder gentler approach. While never recommended it's been done "with love in the heart" effectively before. Keep in mind and alpha rat defending his status wouldn't think twice about ripping his challengers ear off to prove a point or turning his challenger into a bloody mess if he doesn't submit. There's nothing you are likely to do that even comes close during immersion.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

First, I have to tell you guys that I am making progress, little by little! I had Gav come out and sit on my shoulder (I didn't pick him up, I bent to his cage and he climbed on my shoulder,) and he stayed up there while I made my morning tea and got breakfast ready. The whole time he was up there (maybe 10 minutes,) he didn't pee on me once! Before, he would practically soak my neck in urine, through small dribbles. This time though, not one spot! I feel like this is a big step for us. 

Rat Daddy, I knew I should be doing longer sessions, but I didn't quite get what they were supposed to be. Was I supposed to just sit on my bathroom floor until Gav bit me? Or swat at him until something happened? I'm realizing as well, that rat training is unlike any kind of other animal training I've done! I'm realizing more and more that I have been speaking horse, hamster, rabbit, dog, cat, etc to Gav, because a lot of animals are fairly interchangeable. Gav has flipped that thinking on it's head! Just from your post right after my last one, Rat Daddy, I can see they are sooooo different from what my knowledge of animal thinking is. But I love it! I love a challenge and I love learning about animal behavior.

nanashi7, You gave me an "aha!" moment. I didn't really get what I supposed to "do" in immersion, but I think I will try your way of sitting and letting Gav steer things. Like I said, i've been (without realizing it,) reverting to working with Gav like other animals. If a horse gets aggressive, many times it pays to be more aggressive. Show your dominance. I think I was trying to get Gav to do something so I could respond. I'm going to alot some time over the next few days to just sit with Gav and see where he takes the immersion. Unfortunately, tonight I won't have much time to set aside and work with him, but I will update as soon as I do! I will also be checking back on here, even before I get to really work with him, so please keep the advice coming! I'm definitely absorbing all of this and have re-read much of this thread many times. I can't say thank you enough to everyone here helping with this, especially Rat Daddy.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Oh and I feel I should mention that my other guy, Cecil, is doing well. He's a bit timid but is very mellow and doesn't seem bothered by much. I'm going to do immersion with him very soon as well. It's just that Cecil is very easy to handle and I'd like to fix Gav right away.  Though, being an albino, and by his behaviors, I'm thinking Cecil has hearing and sight issues but isn't completely deaf or blind, so any tips on doing immersion with him are also appreciated!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There are only a few animals with metacognative brains as far as we know. That means they have a second level of introspection. Humans are metacognative. So rats brains function along the same parameters as humans. Basically it's the difference between 2D thinking and 3D thinking (metaphorically). 

As to what to do in immersion... basically you engage your rat. When the pack of wild rats tried to immerse my daughter they just kept running at her and jumping over her feet and paused a moment until she chased them. She was 6 years old and that's really all it took to get her full attention and involve her in their game. She very enthusiastically chased a few dozen wild rats around the shrubs. But they didn't run away. They just kept taking turns to challenge her. I suppose eventually they expected her to calm down, and perhaps sit down and interact with them too. Now I knew she wanted to take one home as a friend for Fuzzy Rat and I knew that wouldn't end well, so as soon as I saw that there was a very real possibility of her actually catching one of the wild rats I ended the game. 

When you really don't know what to say in rat, and your rat doesn't understand you, your first goal is to get his attention and more or less say Hi! I'm an intelligent being too! I want to get to meet you! Hey look at me! Hi! Lets be friends! Then... hey lets play or hey lets talk or hey lets cuddle... I don't bite... I realize its a simple message, but your rat may not even know you are talking to him, he may not realize you are even capable of communicating with him and it might take a while to get him to understand even that much. But once you get through the rest goes really quickly.

You take for granted that you are intelligent, emotional and capable of communication and you may have some doubt about your rat... well he's thinking the same about you. He may not even realize that you are capable of talking to him or understanding him or that you are even sentient... For all he knows you may be no smarter than the toilet and your behavior is just random motion by a dangerous unintelligent animal. Yes, it seems silly to hang out and just keep engaging a rat, but he has to notice you and understand that you are trying to get through to him for anything else to happen. Being dominant and acting the alpha gives him another way to see you and helps you not get bit while you are working on more complex communication.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

badger04 said:


> Oh and I feel I should mention that my other guy, Cecil, is doing well. He's a bit timid but is very mellow and doesn't seem bothered by much. I'm going to do immersion with him very soon as well. It's just that Cecil is very easy to handle and I'd like to fix Gav right away.  Though, being an albino, and by his behaviors, I'm thinking Cecil has hearing and sight issues but isn't completely deaf or blind, so any tips on doing immersion with him are also appreciated!


The aggressive rat I spoke of was a rescue rat who is completely blind and partially deaf. Focus more on touch and smell than movement and sound. This means smelly treats; it also means don't change any scented products you use because it can cause confusion. Throw an old dirty tee in his favorite hidey spot for him. When you approach him, offer your hands in front of him before touching him. Why? Well, if he can't see you coming...and you can't _tell_ him you are coming, you better make sure he knows somehow or expect a startled bite.

When letting him meet you, go nose-to-nose with him (watch your mouth, it probably smells like food). Let him explore you. Lay down for him. If his vision is partial, he'll likely have a headsway. Stand still when he does this because he is trying to see you.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I might add that keeping Cecil away from sunlight and bright light might preserve his eyesight longer. Oddly enough, I've never had an issue with PEW mice who don't seem to be impaired by the condition. But we avoid PEW rats as problems with them seem to be very common.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Success!  I sat in my bathroom with Gav for around 2 hours. We started off with him wandering around and me sitting and watching and reading a book. I started to pet him after a long while, with my double oven mitted hand. He started hissing right off the bat! I kept at it, gently petting him, and when he walked away, I let him, then after a while longer, I went back over and started petting him again. He finally got fed up and tried to bite, so I flung him (not very far or had, but enough to make a point,) off the oven mitts. He bit a couple more times and I repeated it. He stopped and preened many times after that, and I made sure not to interrupt him. I then started petting him again, very gently and would occasionally take off the mitts, but if he started to bristle or hiss, I quickly put them back on. I think it would have been better to leave them off, but after the two very nasty bites I've had, and having to do barn work with a hand swollen twice it's size and trying to keep deep puncture wounds clean while working outside, I really didn't want to chance another bad bite. 

We got to a point where Gav was starting to act a little afraid of me. I could see I wasn't getting through to him that I just wanted to be alpha, he didn't get why I kept bugging him and what I was doing. I finally decided to gently block his head with my mitted hand and try flipping him on his back, hoping that this might get the point across of "I just want to fight for alpha status, not kill you or torment you." It seems to have worked!!! He was terrified the first time, but I rubbed his belly and talked to him and slowly let him up when he calmed down. I did this a total of 5 times. By the last 2 times, I had taken the mitts off and he had completely mellowed out. He didn't like it, but he seemed to get what I was trying to say. He walked over to my bathmat that was blocking a gap in my cabinet and tried to hide in it. I just started petting him and praising him. I confidently picked him up and put him on my lap and loved on him. He slowly hopped off and went back to the mat, but let me love on him. I even got some bruxing at the end! I was very confident that he got the idea at least that I wanted alpha status. I think we're at least at that "roommate" status, maybe I've even reached alpha.

A few minutes ago, he let me reach in his cage and pet him. He even started to roll over a bit and started bruxing!  We're on our way to being a happy rat pack! Thank you guys! 

In the next couple of days, I will be doing immersion with Cecil and let you know how that goes, and will continue to work with Gav. Someone said males tend to get "squishy" after immersion, well, Gav definitely feels like a furry blob now instead of a fuzzy ball of energy.  I'm so happy! Thank you guys! I will be keeping you updated for sure!


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

<img style="margin: 1px;" src="http://www.ratforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80842&stc=1" attachmentid="80842" alt="" id="vbattach_80842" class="previewthumb"><br><br>Success!  I sat in my bathroom with Gav for around 2 hours. We started off with him wandering around and me sitting and watching and reading a book. I started to pet him after a long while, with my double oven mitted hand. He started hissing right off the bat! I kept at it, gently petting him, and when he walked away, I let him, then after a while longer, I went back over and started petting him again. He finally got fed up and tried to bite, so I flung him (not very far or had, but enough to make a point,) off the oven mitts. He bit a couple more times and I repeated it. He stopped and preened many times after that, and I made sure not to interrupt him. I then started petting him again, very gently and would occasionally take off the mitts, but if he started to bristle or hiss, I quickly put them back on. I think it would have been better to leave them off, but after the two very nasty bites I've had, and having to do barn work with a hand swollen twice it's size and trying to keep deep puncture wounds clean while working outside, I really didn't want to chance another bad bite. <br><br>We got to a point where Gav was starting to act a little afraid of me. I could see I wasn't getting through to him that I just wanted to be alpha, he didn't get why I kept bugging him and what I was doing. I finally decided to gently block his head with my mitted hand and try flipping him on his back, hoping that this might get the point across of "I just want to fight for alpha status, not kill you or torment you." It seems to have worked!!! He was terrified the first time, but I rubbed his belly and talked to him and slowly let him up when he calmed down. I did this a total of 5 times. By the last 2 times, I had taken the mitts off and he had completely mellowed out. He didn't like it, but he seemed to get what I was trying to say. He walked over to my bathmat that was blocking a gap in my cabinet and tried to hide in it. I just started petting him and praising him. I confidently picked him up and put him on my lap and loved on him. He slowly hopped off and went back to the mat, but let me love on him. I even got some bruxing at the end! I was very confident that he got the idea at least that I wanted alpha status. I think we're at least at that "roommate" status, maybe I've even reached alpha.<br><br>A few minutes ago, he let me reach in his cage and pet him. He even started to roll over a bit and started bruxing!  We're on our way to being a happy rat pack! Thank you guys! <br><br>In the next couple of days, I will be doing immersion with Cecil and let you know how that goes, and will continue to work with Gav. Someone said males tend to get "squishy" after immersion, well, Gav definitely feels like a furry blob now instead of a fuzzy ball of energy.  I'm so happy! Thank you guys! I will be keeping you updated for sure!


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Oh and thank you for the advice on Cecil. Rat Daddy, they are both pretty much out of the sun (I don't have many windows in my tiny apartment,) but I will make sure to keep Cecil out of bright sunlight.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I know Cecil is next, but stay on top of Gav as much and as often as you can. Unlike girls boy's hormones need time to subside so he has to feel immersed in your pack as much as possible so he doesn't back slide. Once his troubles pass you can leave him alone more... if that's what you really want to do.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

I will for sure! I'd love for Gav to be a rat that can roam my apartment and sit on my shoulder all the time (and Cecil as well, but Gav seems to have more of an outgoing personality.) He has been letting me pet him in his cage and has been closing his eyes and melting when I pet behind his ears, so I'm so excited he's settling back down. I will be sure to not let this happen again! I can't thank you guys enough (especially Rat Daddy) for your help. *hugs* I was at wits end and (though the thought of "snake food" was tearing me up inside,) you guys have helped save a beautiful, sweet rattie's life!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And by the way congrats on your success!


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Life has been crazy lately, but Gav and I are doing beautifully! He is turning into quite a lover boy and I'm so happy! I'm actually typing this as I work on immersion with Cecil (couldn't get any good pics.) Cecil is quite squirmy and a little ball of energy so this will be interesting. At least he doesn't bite.


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## Grawrisher (Sep 10, 2013)

I like how we with biting rats post pictures of them on our shoulders after we work with them









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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

LOL, once you fix your rat, you have every right to be proud of him and show him off.


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## badger04 (Sep 23, 2013)

Lol I love the pic Grawrisher! And I am so proud of me and Gav! We're both learning to communicate.  He's graduated to being able to wander my apartment (It's quite rat-proofed, though he did decide to hang out on my friend's N64, and I did not want him to pee on it! lol.) But we are doing so so so so well!!!


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## Grawrisher (Sep 10, 2013)

I know! I love the improvements aris as made as well, she's leaps and bounds ahead of here she was (I have wounds to prove it), she's no penny







But she's still my girl 


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