# Is there an effective way to punish or admonish rats?



## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

One of my rats, I swear just to spite me, has been pooping on the solid levels in the cage, something none of them did before. 

I think he is aware it upsets me...when he does it, he quickly tries to move his poop down to the bottom. But in trying to admonish him, I have been using the trick with dogs - hold him down firmly but gently near the poop and say no, no, etc. But I understand that this may not work with rats? 

Would like to hear if anyone else has had success with this without making the rat think you are trying to hurt him.


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## Mitsy (Apr 8, 2013)

Sense it's in hide cage and he his a male I think it's just him being lazy many people have problems with their males being lazy and not going to the litter box or level that has bedding in it. My girls will do it sometimes to. Maybe you could put a litter box on the level he has been pooping on?


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, actually, mine aren't litter trained - yet. I wanted to wait for a new cage (which I now have) to see where they mostly go before I did it. But is probably the next thing I am going to do.


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## kyzer (Apr 28, 2013)

As mitsy said, you'll probably just have to put a litter tray where he's pooping. They usually catch on very fast to litter training. I doubt the method of showing him his poop and saying no will work. You usually have to correct rats straight after they've done something, otherwise they'll just forget what it is you're punishing them for, and even if you did catch him straight away I still don't think he'd fully get what you're trying to communicate with him. 

I know how annoying it is, the levels can get so stinky!


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

kyzer said:


> As mitsy said, you'll probably just have to put a litter tray where he's pooping. They usually catch on very fast to litter training. I doubt the method of showing him his poop and saying no will work. You usually have to correct rats straight after they've done something, otherwise they'll just forget what it is you're punishing them for, and even if you did catch him straight away I still don't think he'd fully get what you're trying to communicate with him.
> 
> I know how annoying it is, the levels can get so stinky!


It isn't a constant thing, and only Parsley does it. I don't want to put a box on a level and encourage them going on the levels at all. Like I said, he used to not do this with the old cage. 

I am probably going to give it a week or so, I haven't had this cage but a few days yet and maybe he's just not used to the longer walk down. Thankfully, neither of them have been peeing on it.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Try to catch him in the act and while he's going pick him up and place him in the litter box. It worked for my trouble boy.


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## watts300 (Aug 3, 2013)

Holding any animal's face to their poop and telling them "no" does NOTHING for poop-training them. Guaranteed. 

Animals live in the moment. In the now. When you take your animal to the poop and tell him NO, what you're really telling him is, "I see that you pooped. I don't like it." The animal CANNOT make the connection between the location of the poop and your dissatisfaction with it. Dogs, as a "higher" form of life will prove this more effectively. They will be more reluctant to poop, and there will be reluctance to poop in front of you. 

Again, this is guaranteed. Dog, cat, or rat.

Animals need immediate AND positive reinforcement. 




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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Starting to think something else is going on here - for the first time since I have owned rats, when I was reaching in to the cage to clean up some spilled food just now, Parsley bit me in the palm of my hand - HARD (I wasn't going to touch him) - I am bleeding badly now. This behavior is totally out of the blue. He's also been aggressive toward Tux lately, I should have seen this coming.

Since he has bitten me like this, I now think neutering may have to be an option or I may have to rehome him. I don't want to keep rats who I risk getting bitten by for nothing.

He's been put on my shitlist and seperated from Tux for now in my GP cage. Since I also getting two of Nanashi7's boys today, I cannot have him acting like this toward them.


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## watts300 (Aug 3, 2013)

Daniel said:


> I don't want to keep rats who I risk getting bitten by for nothing.


Read my last post above yours. It's entirely likely that you weren't bit "for nothing" if you have been trying to train your rat to poop in the "right" place by holding his face to it.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

watts300 said:


> Read my last post above yours. It's entirely likely that you weren't bit "for nothing" if you have been trying to train your rat to poop in the "right" place by holding his face to it.


No. For one, I wasn't training him to use the litter at all. Only not to go on the levels, a problem none of the other rats have. And I only admonished him once, he didn't react badly and tried to climb my hand right after it.

I also love the implication that I deserved to get bit. I was reaching for the top level and he was on the middle level. He made an effort to get me.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

BTW, I don't actually have a litter box yet. Litter training is to come later. Right now I am still trying to figure out where exactly they all like to go. For now it's pretty much all over the bottom.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

It's a miscommunication and can be fixed. Take him out for some immediate and lengthy immersion. He didn't understand why you held him down to his poops, and he also didn't like it. So he's likely letting you know he didn't like it. You can't violate a rat's trust in you while he's in his safe place. If he starts associating the start of your interactions with being punished, he will stop participating. It's hard to know all the variables without witnessing the interaction, but trust training will definitely be a part of fixing the behavior


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## watts300 (Aug 3, 2013)

You asked for help by creating this thread. I saw an error (there is plenty of documentation available for you to read) in your ways and offered an explanation. 

If some one offers help, it's not appropriate to accuse some one of being on a high-horse because you don't like the answer. If there is more information to be had regarding the situation, I'm open to reading it.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Right, but the question wasn't about litter training. It was about admonishment with rats, and whether it works or not. The pooping thing is just one example. I'd like to hear if other people have found a way to discipline and the rat is able to understand it. I can remember hearing about some in the past. I was just getting a little frustrated that people think I am asking about litter training when I don't have a litter box and am not at that stage yet.


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## Daniel (Jun 24, 2013)

Tasey said:


> It's a miscommunication and can be fixed. Take him out for some immediate and lengthy immersion. He didn't understand why you held him down to his poops, and he also didn't like it. So he's likely letting you know he didn't like it. You can't violate a rat's trust in you while he's in his safe place. If he starts associating the start of your interactions with being punished, he will stop participating. It's hard to know all the variables without witnessing the interaction, but trust training will definitely be a part of fixing the behavior


Yes, but I still think there are other problems he has been having with aggression. This isn't completely out of the blue. I posted awhile back about his 'tugging' problem with Tux, and it has gotten worse since then.

I haven't had a male rat with testosterone issues before. Mine have all been pretty calm.


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## watts300 (Aug 3, 2013)

Daniel said:


> Right, but the question wasn't about litter training. It was about admonishment with rats, and whether it works or not.


Understood. I apologize if I made it sound like I was trying to give litter training advice. My intent was to answer your specific question that I quoted above. Does it work or not? No. That form of admonishment doesn't work with rats. It doesn't work with any animal.


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

At least in my experience, rats don't tolerate punishment in the sense that submissive breeds of dog do. Treat a rat like a small bulldog. Behaviors need to be modified in a positive way. Rats don't like being humiliated, and any attention is good attention. They *will* misbehave to get your attention. So turn it back on them. If they're chewing your shoe and you make a sharp sound, and they stop: reward them. If they chew your shoe after knowing it's taboo, set them in time-out. Just remember to communicate on their level. If they don't understand why they are being punished, then they will be utterly frustrated because rats *want* to please. They want you to be happy with them, they want you to give them treats and scritches. They want your attention and love. It's just a matter of getting on the same page and taking baby steps toward the behavior you want with positive reinforcement, not punishment when they don't get it right away


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## Tasey (Aug 31, 2013)

Though if after you try everything you can to get the behavior corrected through training and attention, and it just doesn't work, then hormones could easily be the root cause. My boy Skipper would puff up and hiss and siddle and rub up against everything and everyone in his path. He absolutely hates my other male not because he's mean or nasty, simply because he can't control himself. He snaps easily. But as soon as those hormones fade down again, he's sweet as a button. Your boy may have similar issues, but it could also just be frustration. I tried for months to eliminate the other variables with Skipper, and eventually had to concede that his best option was probably neutering. But I'm just speaking from my experiences here. Your situation is different from mine, and you have different variables to contend with. Though it seems like you are at least trying everything you can. Does he see you as the unquestioned alpha?


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## relken0608 (Jul 11, 2013)

It's not that you "deserved" to get bit, only that rats don't bite for no reason. In his silly eyes, you were doing something threatening and he protected himself, or his status of heirarchy in the cage, or his territory. He had SOME reason to bite you, however foolish. A lot of times it's hard to figure out what you did that made him upset, but really they aren't inherently aggressive and only bite if they feel there's a need to.


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## Hephaestion (Jan 27, 2013)

I don't agree with punishment/admonishment after the fact. Rats learn effectively when they can associate an immediate behaviour with an outcome (although with some exceptions, they are one of the few animals proven to learn after the fact in relation to choosing foodstuffs). I think punishment in the wrong hands can be detrimental. Negative reinforcement is altogether different but in your case, I don't see it as being applicable. When you are pushing your rats nose in his poop, to him, you are just becoming the guy who wipes his face in waste.

In your situation, you have one idea where he should poop and he has another. The best approach to litter training is to allow them pick their corners and then pop a litter tray in that corner. I think your rat has spoken and has told where his toilet is. Now, it is up to you to put a litter box, extra substrate, etc. there. After all, it is his cage!


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## JBird (May 23, 2013)

Like Relken said, rats do not ever bite without reason. Honestly very few animals do. Who knows why he was scared or threatened, but your first thought shouldn't be rehoming him or neutering after one startled bite. 

As far as punishing a rat, you've gotten some great advice. Rats respond best to positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement (punishing, "rubbing their nose in it", fussing "No!", etc) do not garner much response other than to maybe startle the rat out of doing whatever it was doing. If you are trying to train your rats to not use the levels as a toilet, then you need to give them a place to toilet specifically. This is WHY people litter train. It is much easier to learn what you SHOULD do, rather than what you SHOULD NOT do. Also, you just got this cage... give them some time to adjust and feel at home. Make sure to remember that consistency is key in any form of training. Often, with potty training any animal, you do not need to command or punish. You just need to show the animal (with rats, this is most easily accomplished by moving the poo to where you want it to be) rather than command the animal. Pottying is a bodily function, it is not a behavior. You do not ever, ever punish an animal for defecating or urinating. 

The new cage is also probably related to his biting you- if he doesn't feel safe in his home yet maybe he was just startled and didn't know where to go to feel safe. It's only been a few days! His hormonal behavior with Tux is relatively normal, and I wouldn't get too worried yet.


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