# cage shyness?



## a___smith (Apr 4, 2013)

When my two boys are out for playtime, they're both bold and happy, running over the table and each other and me and everything. However, in the cage, Sherlock spends most of his time hiding in the bottom corner. The only exception is when the pair of them get an energy burst, and are darting about the cage, but even the slightest noise will panic him back into the corner (and sudden noises don't bother him when he's out with me). Is this a normal thing for the less dominant rat? Or is there something I can do to make him more comfortable when in the cage?


----------



## a___smith (Apr 4, 2013)

I should also mention that after I've had them out, he's perfectly happy, wandering around the cage for a bit and even sleeping in his sputnik attached to the top. After about half an hour or so, he's back in his little corner at the bottom.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

If the cage is large enough put in a cardboard box or similar hiding place where your rats can hide. 

Oddly humans tend to think rats see their cages as safe places, this isn't entirely so. Rats really prefer small dark cramped spaces over large open well ventilated cages. Every rat I've ever owned has built some secret hidey hole in or under my furniture and they enjoy going to their secret place and napping when they are out during free range time. Given the opportunity, all my rats would gladly sacrifice their cage for a heap of old papers or rags behind a file cabinet or a self made nest in the towel closet.

Yes, most rats adapt to their cage environment as rats can adapt to many things, but it really isn't natural for a rat to sleep out in the open where people can see them.

The large cage myth comes when people don't have time to take their rats out often enough and the rats don't get enough free range time out of the cage. It's humans that like to think that their rats prefer big cages to justify our neglect. In fact every rat I've ever owned would prefer a hole in the wall or a shoebox stuffed with a few old rags under the bed to a CN cage. If you have a large cage put in a cramped little container and your rats will actually prefer to nap or hide in it. They will come out to play more often knowing they have the security of their nest to run back to.

Rat brains are very much like human brains, for the most part it's easy to understand rats because they think very much like we do.... but rats are only 1/100th our size. We aren't likely to get stepped on or gobbled up by a predator. So as adults we like large open airy homes. But think back to when you were a child feeling safe in your bedroom or under your bed or in a closet. So even small humans prefer small spaces. It's an adaptation that makes sense given a rats size. So where you are thinking the rat should feel safe in it's roomy cage it's hiding in the most defensible corner feeling vulnerable and exposed. I might add that rats prefer that their nests be secret. One of my girls has her nest under my computer desk a few feet from me, but when I call her, she slinks out from the other side of my desk and makes a complete circle of the room before coming up on hand. The idea is that I shouldn't know where her nest is even if I can hear her chomping on something just about next to me on the floor. 

Rats are intelligent learning animals, but certain things are hard wired into their psyche. Having a small dark nest to sleep in is pretty much one of these things. Give some thought to how you are going to accommodate that need and your rats should be fine.


----------



## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

my rats love their 5ft cages (they get tons of out time I just like people sized floor to head cages&my rats like eye contact) because of all the different hidey-holes & places to be. ive found mine adore the ferret pirate ships w/extra cloth to wall up one side. ive also made houses w/canopy curtains&hung fabric inside to make it homier for them. is there anything around the placement of the cage that may cause discomfort? maybe fabric "curtains" on the inside could help. my rats do sleep out in the open often though. they have little mattresses they drag out of their houses to flop in front of the top door&nap paw out or on the balcony to the cage top dollhouse where I cant miss them. its amusing but I wonder what they think they'll miss out on.


----------



## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> The large cage myth comes when people don't have time to take their rats out often enough and the rats don't get enough free range time out of the cage. It's humans that like to think that their rats prefer big cages to justify our neglect. In fact every rat I've ever owned would prefer a hole in the wall or a shoebox stuffed with a few old rags under the bed to a CN cage. If you have a large cage put in a cramped little container and your rats will actually prefer to nap or hide in it. They will come out to play more often knowing they have the security of their nest to run back to.


Owch. "Neglect"? Really? I have a ton of respect for you Rat Daddy but it seems pretty harsh to basically say everyone who doesn't constantly free range their rats is neglecting them.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

To a_smith 

Is the other rat bullying him? I would try adding more floor hides maybe a cereal box that he can curl up in. Give him treats if he comes out of his little corner. Scatter yummy treats throughout the cage

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

He kind of just contradicted himself. One moment hes saying rats need free range (which would be a wide open area) next he is saying rats don't like wide open areas. Mine personally don't like free range. One is nearly blind if not completely and fear poops the whole time she is out if I force her. The other will promptly run back to her cage. The other two want to be on me the entire time. They don't relax when they free range they seem to be contantly afraid. If I'm there they're better but they won't explore. So out time for my girls is in the recliner with me with a blanket and a box. 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose I'm a little harsh on people that neglect their rats... when in fact we all neglect our ratties to one point or another. I can't always have my rats out either. And some days my girls who are getting older would just prefer to sleep in.

But what happens is we tend to euphemize (hey write that down it's a new word!) terms to become less poignant. And we do that so we don't have to address the issues. If we call leaving our rats unattended in their cage when they would rather be out playing with us neglect, we are more likely to do something about it. We begin to think a big cage is "normal" and because they have some play room in their cage we stop doing the right things. As in why patch the roof if you have a few extra buckets laying around to catch the water the drips in. 

I really don't judge people, but our rat Amelia really was neglected by her prior owner and she doesn't even understand hugs and skritches. She's damaged for life. Her prior owner even told me they didn't have time to take her out of her cage... No, she never used the term neglect, but never the less poor Amelia sat on my desk for three weeks like a flowerpot uncertain about even walking around much less exploring the house. Seven months in a small cage makes even a single room look pretty big and scary.

Rats have a very short lifetime and two weeks left alone in a cage is the same as keeping a human in jail for a year. With our lives so busy we often don't notice time slipping by. Perhaps we don't have time to play with our rats two hours a day, or maybe we don't have time some days... maybe a week slips by then maybe a few weeks and somehow the rationale slips in that they have rattie friends and big cage... Where does it become neglect? Certainly before seven months go by and maybe not if we only play an hour one day with our rats but if we use the term neglect more we will likely do it less. 

Guys that work with explosives and firearms use very harsh terms to describe very small breaches in safety. Range masters never use euphemisms. By exaggerating rather than downplaying the little mistakes you prevent the major ones. So if you call not free ranging your rat one day neglect, you will be less likely to do it for two and you're never going to screw up for seven months. 

With all pets, neglect is the number one form of abuse. I am sorry if I sound harsh, but if people get it into their minds that their rats need their almost constant attention, their rats will be happier and healthier for it and they will have a more rewarding rat ownership experience. 

There are lots of newbies that read their way through here and they can get easily confused. They need to understand that keeping rats with buddies and buying a monster cage is not a substitute for human interaction. It's a nice bonus, but it never replaces the hands on human alpha in the equation.


----------



## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

In your original post it sounded like you were conflating the ideas of not free ranging and never taking the rats out to play. There was a short window of time where I had three separate groups of rats and I was only able to get two groups out each day, so I had to alternate who didn't get to come out that day, but that was, like, a week. I take my rats out every single day no matter what, but I never free range them because it's not possible in my living situation. They have my queen sized bed, a side table, and a long bookshelf to play on (though they generally just prefer curling up and falling asleep on me). It just seemed... strange, I guess? It seemed strange to imply that people who try to give their rats big cages are essentially bad owners who don't play with their rats. Not free ranging does not equal stuck in the cage all day.


----------



## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

My blue was a lot like this, so is milo ATM, they both have lots of boxes etc to hide in but blue preferred to sleep in the hammock and milo just on the floor, my boys come out at lease four hours a day if not more blue has now only just started to interact with me, milo likes to hide in the pillows then come out when he's comfortable, the only times my boys ever go without interaction is if I'm visiting family for a weekend, but it never bothers them, yes they're excited to see me but they aren't in any distress what so ever, I agree with you rat daddy to some extent but by calling it neglect I disagree, if you leave your rats for a week without free range I don't agree it's neglect because I don't see my parents for weeks so am I neglecting them? As long as they're clean and have food and water and things that keep them busy I don't class it as neglect, however like you said if weeks turn into months without free ranging them I would call it neglect, but a week or two is not going to harm them, 

I know you have huge experience with rats and I'm not trying to cause an argument or disrespect you as I respect your view and advice you have given me in the past but it's extremely harsh the why you have worded that, 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Oh and just to add my boys only free range on my bed (double bed) because of wires and our other animals, they seem very happy just on my bed though 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## a___smith (Apr 4, 2013)

They have a couple of hidey hole things in the cage, but none on the floor so I'll add one. He doesn't seem to be bullied; the two certainly squabble, and Sherlock is definitely the less dominant of the pair, but they usually seem perfectly happy together. I'm just a little worried that with more places to hide, he'll be less willing to come over to me when I try to get them out for free range time.

Sherlock's definitely getting a little bolder in the cage, so he's either adjusting, or my presence in the room is helping him (I've just started work experience and so am out for 11 hours of the day; my mum checks on them during the day and says he's often hiding, but this evening and yesterday evening I've seen him wandering around a bit more when I've been sat in the room). I just want to make sure he's happy (and John, too, of course  ).



(didn't realise my question could be led so off-track :l )


----------



## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

you have a great point but ive done rescue, ive seen abuse far far worse than neglect. personally I like great big cages because life is short&they deserve the best. I oftentimes take in elderly rats or rats w/health issues so im very big on quality of life. a day away from home is a day my rats wont let me forget, ive oftentomes forgone sleep for them to have time w/me awake&playing, but I take my cues from them. sometimes they just want to remain in cage&have me sit next to them petting them, or they want to nap w/me in a chair. sometimes they just want me to open the door sit on the floor&read aloud to them or just be present. such is life w/elderly rats. they always get the option&some time out but if they head back home its not on me to force the issue. they just get more momma time in cage or chair&another chance out as soon as they desire. I very much believe in giant cages because they give them ample space&make you constantly add toys repair hammocks couches etc. when it comes time for a single level the bottom can easily be converted at first to assess any special needs while you decide if they need something smaller or can navigate the bottom w/adaptions. the added bonus is the space atop the cage for a always accessible play area other then the playtable so they can loom. mine love to loom over me&at 5ft they adore looking down at me&i am very accustomed to it.big cages don't make it easier to ignore time out that's entirely on the person who's too busy.


----------



## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

a___smith said:


> They have a couple of hidey hole things in the cage, but none on the floor so I'll add one. He doesn't seem to be bullied; the two certainly squabble, and Sherlock is definitely the less dominant of the pair, but they usually seem perfectly happy together. I'm just a little worried that with more places to hide, he'll be less willing to come over to me when I try to get them out for free range time.
> 
> Sherlock's definitely getting a little bolder in the cage, so he's either adjusting, or my presence in the room is helping him (I've just started work experience and so am out for 11 hours of the day; my mum checks on them during the day and says he's often hiding, but this evening and yesterday evening I've seen him wandering around a bit more when I've been sat in the room). I just want to make sure he's happy (and John, too, of course  ).
> 
> ...


Sorry or going off track, honestly with blue I always took him out for free range time but let him do what he wanted if he wanted to hide until he goes back in his cage then that's fine, it took a while but blue now will come to me when I walk in the room and will play etc, it took me at least two or three months to make him trust me but personally I don't like to force animals to trust, I rescue all sorts of animals and I let them come to me, it seems a lot less stressful on all the animals I have/do own, all animals other then my rats are rescues, and I rehabilitated all the animals I have and some have even been rehomed, so in my opinion what I would do is, give him treats like you would normally if he won't take it out your hand leave it next to him, or let him eat soft food off a spoon and gradually move it closer to the door of the cage, move slowing to stroke him but make sure he has seen your hand because blue used to panic when I touched him if he didn't see my hand, free range him give him treats while he's out, and let him do his own thing, you don't have to take my advice but it worked for me, so hopefully it can you  good luck and again sorry for going off track on your thread! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## alexn (Sep 30, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> But what happens is we tend to euphemize (hey write that down it's a new word!)


I'm honestly not sure whether you're being serious, sarcastic, or just calling everyone a dumbass there.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## a___smith (Apr 4, 2013)

Ratfinx said:


> Sorry or going off track, honestly with blue I always took him out for free range time but let him do what he wanted if he wanted to hide until he goes back in his cage then that's fine, it took a while but blue now will come to me when I walk in the room and will play etc, it took me at least two or three months to make him trust me but personally I don't like to force animals to trust, I rescue all sorts of animals and I let them come to me, it seems a lot less stressful on all the animals I have/do own, all animals other then my rats are rescues, and I rehabilitated all the animals I have and some have even been rehomed, so in my opinion what I would do is, give him treats like you would normally if he won't take it out your hand leave it next to him, or let him eat soft food off a spoon and gradually move it closer to the door of the cage, move slowing to stroke him but make sure he has seen your hand because blue used to panic when I touched him if he didn't see my hand, free range him give him treats while he's out, and let him do his own thing, you don't have to take my advice but it worked for me, so hopefully it can you  good luck and again sorry for going off track on your thread!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha, that's okay, not your fault 

I agree with not forcing trust; I've worked with horses for a long time and that's an animal you really need to take time with, or it can go very badly wrong down the line.

I'll try doing all those things while he's in the cage - giving treats and leaving my hand next to him. I often sit next to the cage with the door open, and he's even started to come over to the open door, but as soon as i move to stroke him he jumps away. So I'll keep working on that 

I'm more than willing to allow him to take his time trusting me, I just want to make sure he's comfortable and happy


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Alexin, I'm just being silly... many years ago I coined the phrase "revisionist history" It caught on and spread until about a decade later I heard it used in a presidential speech. I had to laugh, but never got credit for it. I like "euphemize" I'm likely to use it again and you all heard it here first... (Still just being silly). I figured by now you all know me well enough that if I really wanted to call someone a dumbass, I'd do it outright. But in all truth I very much enjoy the company of the other rat owners on this forum and few if any have ever inspired me to use that term.

Now it's always the case that when you start sharpening pointy sticks, it's the folks you don't intend to poke that get most concerned. When I say a big cage is no substitute for human attention and love, it's the folks with the big cages that spend every waking hour with their rats and sleepless nights nursing them and cook special meals for their rats that figure I'm jabbing at them... Not so! Most of the people here in this forum have great relationships with their rats and spend much of their waking lives with them and they buy their rats big cages out of love, not guilt. I certainly have no issue with that, I admire that kind of commitment. 

The people I don't mind prodding a little are the people that lock their rats behind bars and don't commit the time and love that their rats need. A big cage is no substitute for human affection and attention. I don't mean people shouldn't buy big cages... they just shouldn't substitute indoor real estate for love and human interaction. And I do believe that small, dark hiding places really make a rat feel more comfortable than wide open spaces. So a hiding box in a big cage is an optimal solution.

As to the neglect being abuse, it's worse because many rat owners don't even know they are doing it. When I'm working on a deadline and only have an hour to spend with my girls or I just let them roam the house while I'm working I feel guilty and neglectful. The person who hasn't had his rats out of the cage for two months and hasn't cleaned their cage in two weeks and hasn't fed his rats in two days probably doesn't feel like he's abusing his rats at all, in fact he isn't even thinking about his rats most of the time. When I used the term neglect the folks that reacted were precisely the folks I honestly wouldn't consider neglectful. For example good parents I've met stress out over their bad parenting habits, while bad parents I've met don't even realize that they don't know where their children are. Of someone here is taking issue with my use of the word neglect, I'll bet they aren't the people I'm poking pointy sticks at, the truly neglectful folks figure I'm talking about someone else.

If someone really believes that they can give their rats less care and attention because they have a big cage, I still think they are missing my point... and generally by out of cage time I do mean time spent interacting with their humans. Sure, I suppose you could interact with your rats in a cage, but that's a scenario I really didn't give much thought to; I always take my rats out to play. And seriously, why keep rats if you don't want them to be your companions and friends and why wouldn't anybody want to spend as much time as possible with their rats? I just don't get it. If you want pets to look at, tropical fish are much more colorful and active and they don't mind not being handled. If my rats weren't exhausted and stuffed right now I'd have them roaming around my feet.

When it comes to free ranging we are likely to have a vastly different interpretation of that word. In spring, summer and fall as long as the weather is nice we measure free range play area in terms of acres and rat sprints in therms of yards and total distance covered in sizable fractions of miles, climbing involves trees rather than furniture and swimming involves a lake rather than a bathtub. In winter I do free range my rats indoors and I feel they suffer for it, the 1000 square foot second floor of my house isn't enough room for my rats to get the kind of exercise I think they really need and they pork up indoors.

But all of that aside, rats need love and attention more than room. Whether you give them a large cage and a bed or a 40 acre park to play in, it's the time and quality of your interaction with your rats matters most. Rats can even survive in very small spaces but they can't be psychologically healthy without the care and love of their humans.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

One last thing, As to rats not liking to free range, in fact they don't like to free range because they aren't used to it. When we got Amelia she was neglected and never allowed out of her cage. I put her on my desk and she didn't move from the place I put her for three weeks. Then during the three weeks we were in the dark due to the hurricane she eventually found the confidence to explore. Eventually she became very accustomed to exploring and free ranging indoors. Now we are working with her outdoors. Every trip outdoors is slowly building her confidence. No, I doubt she'll ever be a true shoulder rat like Fuzzy Rat, but she's no longer glued to me, she'll already cross some longer stretches of wide open territory to get from one hiding spot to another. If a rat doesn't free range it's usually because it lacks the confidence to explore. The way a rat gets the confidence to explore is by free ranging. Honestly, I've never had a rat that didn't free range once it got used to doing it. It still might be affectionate and run to you for safety, but it for sure is going to travel around to see what goodies have fallen from the stove or are hiding under the sofa etc.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm tired so I forgot to address whether rats prefer closed spaces or wide open ones. 

First no rat naturally likes wide open spaces for any reason. They however learn that rooms can be safe places to play and free range and in the case of true shoulder rats they can even learn to walk across a wide open field with you without stressing out.

But when rats get anxious or want to sleep they prefer their hidey holes. And people are like that too. We might like to play soccer or football out in the open but few of us actually like to sleep on park benches even in fine weather. When we go to sleep we check to make sure all of the doors are locked then we turn out the lights. Fuzzy Rat is perfectly comfortable walking among a crowd of people down a trail in the park, but when she goes to sleep she finds the darkest smallest spot in her cage to snuggle into. Sorry for the confusion.

Oddly enough rats that have places to hide tend to be more outgoing from my experience. I'm sure there's a logic to it and there are lots of exceptions but it's just my personal observation.


----------



## ratwebb (May 8, 2013)

I think I see the logic to it. If a rat knows it has a place to hide in it can risk being bolder because it knows it can hide there if it needs to. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

one of my elders loves the pirate ship so much now that she has health issues&adaptions have been made on some occasions she must come out in the ship to even be willing to leave the cage(the others love out time but some rescue elders get particular)then once she gets the "tour" she remembers how fun the bed two playtables&climbing on my head in the chair truly is. the carrier to cage as a signal to get in as its time to come out&play(or chew log)work great for shy rescue rats in their first weeks here&was a boon in emergency training(they all welcome hands but a come out signal was desired in case of fire or other evacuation emergency) perhaps some of these covered hammocks tubes etc will alleviate skittishness/hiding. added bonus they soon learn to love the carrier&dont equate it as much w/coming out as the signal to rush out excited to see where we're going today.


----------



## Jenzie (Dec 26, 2012)

Rat Daddy - I appreciate your clarification a lot. It's a great parallel to draw between pet owners and parents - it's quite true that the ones who actually need improvement are often blissfully unaware. And yes, of course ratties love hideaways. My guys always get several to choose from of different sizes in their cage. A big empty cage is not only scary but boring.

OP, so sorry for derailing things a bit.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Rat daddy I just tried to pm you but couldn't, was just going to thank you for explaining what you meant and I apologies for overreacting, 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Imagine a rat that doesn't understand skritches or hugs or being petted... I never could... Her family told us they didn't have much time for her and she was a very good rat because she wouldn't never come out even if you left the cage door open. And seven months later she's still not alright. 

I know Amelia's former family loved animals. I know they thought they were taking good care of her and she was thin but healthy. But she didn't even know her own name after seven months in their home! And when we met Amelia's former human mommy the last time Amelia jumped nearly 4 feet through the air from her to me like her tail was on fire. No way did Amelia ever want to go to that home again.

Neglect is a push button issue with me. It's so easy to do and it's done by "good people" all of the time. Sometimes I go over the top on this subject. When I read posts that start with "I've had my rat for over a year and it tries to bite me when I reach in (and it always did)..." I know no one has been reaching in since that rat was a pup and I can bet it never had free range time. And I literally cringe. As a matter of fact I've read countless posts that all describe symptoms of neglect and it breaks my heart. Still I try to be as helpful as possible because I understand some people don't realize what they are doing is wrong.

So some days I'm in a rush to finish a post and I forget myself a little and I may sound harsh but I really want to see everybody get their rats out of their cages and play with them and interact and find the love we share with our rats with their own rats. I know it's not nice to jab pointy sticks at people, but sometimes I get carried away, it was my fault for being unclear.


----------



## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

oh poor amelia. I get rescues like that too, or aggressive rats that bite...funny thing is if you don't react&let yourself get bit it stops fast for me anyway. ive had so many "bad biters" who were sweet just cage territorial. carrier training worked well, see the carrier then come out & play. I hate when they don't know their name&have changed names from abused rats before because hearing something that reminded them of that past created behavioral issues. I can assure you my elders who choose to stay in cage some days simply have those stay in days but get ample time out too. it just takes reminding them they're missing all the fun. on migraine days the stay in pair tend to like to nap w/me in the dark room or nap in the bathroom sink when I take a bath. 1 is a swimmer who gets in no matter my weak objections. I just don't like to force the issue on bad days if they object. just pull the chair up to the cage&be present&loving in case they change their minds, sometimes they do. been a long spate of migraines w/no end so I understand haste. after a full day of cleanin playtime harvesting lettuce washing laundry etc I relish the time w/my "grouchy gals" who are surprisingly lively destroying big bird(a feather duster)&attempting to re-mess everything I cleaned, even the empty wastecans. I didn't have the heart to tell them that scattering poos in a trashcan was good.


----------



## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Lturkey,

I know what you mean with older rats, our own Fuzzy Rat is more tumor than rat and she still goes to the park with us and introduces my daughter to other children. She tries hard to be the family rat and live up to all of her responsibilities. Struggling to play and be loving and be the amazing rat she has been all of her life takes a lot out of her and sometimes she just can't go anymore she just stops and needs help. 

I'm half torn between letting her retire and thinking that pushing herself keeps her going. Some days are harder than others on her and on me. Yesterday was a good day, she met a whole bunch of adoring kids that played with her for quite some time and carried her around and she napped on the bench on the pier watching the waves in the kill in the cool sunshine and she lead us back to the car and almost made it the whole way until she couldn't go any farther and needed help with the last 30 yards. Today she helped Amelia tunnel a burrow under a giant rock, well more pushed a little dirt because Amelia burried her rice and then just supervised the excavation, but she seemed happy to be part of the action and when we finally wrestled Amelia out of the burrow (who knew that rats can dig a burrow they can disappear into in ten minutes?) She couldn't help but make a dash for the hole herself just to be part of the excitement. A couple of grains of rice and she weebled right back out but she seemed happy to have dirt under her nails and up her nose again.

Being old and sick is hard on Fuzzy Rat and us, and most likely it's only going to get harder, but it's one day at a time, and I suppose there's got to be a first rat to recover from giant tumors, so we keep up the hope for now, but old rats that have given their lives in service to their family are very precious and deserve all of the love they can get. And every day is a blessing.

I know where you are coming from with your older rats and understand the special relationship you share. We're both very lucky, at least for now.


----------



## Ltukey (May 28, 2013)

sorry my response took so long coming I had a time away from technology. your anecdote sums up all my efforts&struggles. I just went to a pet thing at tractor supply as the store asked me sevral times&the rats loved meeting people&showing how smart clean&loving rats are as pets.(I saw many people taking notes&asking about shelter rats&can only hope the note takers ask any other questions the next time they are in as a great#of the staff are rat people too) I had to leave one girl from the catual event as she is heavily tumored but it broke my heart as she loves people, so she got to do the rest, go to my parents for a grill day, ride to the coffee shop&get love from friends who work there, have a playdate w/my parents rats. the other cagemate didn't want to come&the care package of goodies&time out when I got home was all I could do to get her to interact, but she was glad to be home&see what goodies I brought&put out in the livingroom&playtable for her to bring home. we are indeed very lucky. its a hard thing to loose our elder rats but the time spent w/them makes it worth it. someday I hope to figure out pictures to this thing, I have some great ones as im sure we all do. your sweet ratkin seem to be well spoiled&loved&that makes me smile. the imagery is lovely. im glad a day out is so great for them.


----------

