# Using Secondary muscles to breath



## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

My over two year old boy is using secondary muscles to breath. Atleast I'm pretty sure he is.
He's not sneezing or anything just with each breath he moves and his stomach is moving when he breaths.
He's already on antihistamines and I've given him some chocolate.
There anything else I can do to help him out?
He's still eating and drinking but his eyes are so dull and squinted.

Also how can I tell when he isn't getting enough oxygen? I dont want him to suffocate to death...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Is he breathing with his abdomem? If so its a sign hes really not well. He needs antibiotics, something like baytril and doxy together should help him.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Yes he is and I forgot to mention he is on antibiotics aswell but has only been for a day.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Sounds like he might just have a small minor Resp. infection. It can take a few days for antibiotics to work so hopefully in a few days he'll get better. That's really all I can add, never had a rat breath from their stomach, at least I don't think so.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

He's always had chronic breathing issues, a infection is likely what it is I'm just more looking for advice on how to keep him comfortable. He looks uncomfortable. I wonder if I could let him use my inhaler or not. 
Thanks for all the help Lightning with my topics in general.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I would only use an inhaler if he is clearly having breathing issues and if he Doesn't have a heart issue.

if you don't know how to do it for rats get a toilet paper roll, cover one side of it and put the inhaler in the other side. put one puff in and then quickly put his nose into the tube (you don't have to cover the other end if he'll put his head into it without struggling. in which case just put his head into one side and the inhaler on the other). it's recommended to do 1 puff every 6 hours.

Maybe some baby Ibuprofen or Medicam can help him on out if he appears to be in pain. if not make him up some yummy food for him if he's eating. Won't actually fix the pain but should keep his mind off of it, and make him happier.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

With the way he's acting and looking at me I feel like I might have to say goodbye soon.
He doesn't even walk around when I take him out like he did a few days ago, if he gets any worse I dont think it would be fair to keep him around.
He's just sitting curled up in a ball have a hard time breathing all puffed up with dull eyes and a overly tired look on his face.
I feel so awful for him, he's my big cuddly ole man and I hate seeing him like this..


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## Sugapot (Mar 3, 2013)

Heart breaking seeing our babies suffer! I really hope he gets better soon. 


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm sorry, I hope he does get better, but if not it sounds like your making the right call.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Abdominal breathing is a sign a good part of his breathing capacity is out of action, this coukd be due to pneumonia or something else nasty,. You can use a inhaler on rats, in fact my vet recently perscribed one of mine an inhaler. It should help widen the airways and ease his breathing. I had to pur my lad in a tub with a lid, I put 1 to 2 puffs in and let him breath it for a few seconds, then took him out. It didnt he my guy as he had a tumour but it has helped friends rats in the past. Taking him into a steamy room and a bit of dark chocolate may also help. If after a ciuole days more the antibiotics dont help and hes getting worse steroids can help, they should be a last resort though as whilst they can save a really sick rat they also lower the immune system so can also make them worse


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the well wishes.
I'll try the inhaler and hope for the best.

Isamurat, he's actually supposed to be put on a steroid based pain killer for back and hip pain Monday I cant remember the name of it though.
He was on metacham but we took him off it because of his age and how hard it can be on the liver and kidneys.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Well I used the inhaler, he seems to be getting more air but his breathing is rapid now.
Could he just be trying to compensate for lost oxygen now that he can breath? He's still using his abdomen to breath though and here is a video of his breathing right after the inhaler.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5QhyXWQdy74M2w4YVNrT1dXVEE/edit

I'd like opinions on how his breathing looks I've never had this issue before does it look really bad?


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Well he just went south fast he's mouth breathing and my vet isnt open and I cant take him anywhere else. He's getting cold. I doubt he'll make it through the night...


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm so Sorry


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm sure this is definitely much more than a minor respiratory infection, I thought you would know this LightningWolf! If I recall there was a forum user who posted a video of their dumbo rat who was breathing in a similar manner. He was old too and unfortunately it was pneumonia and he passed a few days later... I hope this isn't the case with your boy Jokerfest, I wish you the best. I'll try to find the video so you can compare.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Well I was wrong, at first it sounded like one. I'm starting to think this is Peunomia. it can hit really quickly. Had a rat die of it at 10 months and he had symptoms (from what looked like a minor myco flare up to full Peunomia) for around 14 hours before he passed away.

Once again, I'm so sorry Joker. Sending virtual hugs.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

He's not going to make it ratclaws thank you for the offer though.
His breathing is getting slow and stopping occasionally now so I dont think there is anything else I can do.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Oh dear, I am so sorry Jokerfest!


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Anyone know if it would be better to let him sleep in my bed tonight or put him back with his colony while he passes? I judt want to make this as easy for him as possible. 

Thank you for all the hugs.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

That's up to you honestly. Every rat is different. Einstein wanted to die alone, Charles wanted to die laying on me, Storm wanted to die laying in his favorite box.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I do wanna say that all my other rats are no longer sneezing so I dont think my colony had a virus like I previously thought.
I think everyone just had a allergy issue and Jaspers problem is just his age catching up to him or something. He's had chronic issues since I got him. I'm just glad I was lucky enough to own such a wonderful little boy. I'm going to let him sleep with me tonight because I have some very hyper young boys who enjoy walking on him and wrestling on him and I doubt he would enjoy that. Thank you everyone for your help I'm going to sign off for the night and cuddle with him.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

sorry friend


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Im so sorry, pneumonia can hit hard and fast, ive had it take down a young fit rat in perfect health in 3 days. Its horrible to watch. I hope he enjoyed his cuddles with you last night and hd a peaceful end. Your others might have had a minor virus that didnt hurt them, but because hes got chronic issues it hit him badly or the stress of seeing him ill could have upset them. I hope your ok and the others are still doi g well.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I dont know how but.. he made it through the night and while he isn't 'better' he's stable.
I stayed up with him all night hydrating him and just spending time with him and he never passed, he stopped mouth breathing and seems to have improved a lot. 
I'm hoping maybe just maybe I can get him better. He stopped breathing multiple times before he got to a stable point and I thought he was gone a few times. I held my breath thinking he would decline again in a few hours. But eight hours later here we are and he's still stable. I guess he's not quite ready to give up. I'm exhausted but if staying with him all day and night is what will make him get better then I guess I'll have to do it!


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## NatashaK290 (Feb 11, 2013)

I hope he gets better soon. Have you taken him to the vet yet?


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Yes I have and he's on antibiotics. I want to take him back but no one here is open on the weekends. 
He will be going in again tomorrow if he makes it.
I want to get him a steroid shot and maybe a secondary antibiotic aswell so we can knock this thing out.
Thank you for the well wishes.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Id try and use the inhaler every 6 hours whilst your waiting, thats what my vet had me trying anyway, if it seems to be helping. Im so gkad he made kt through the night, try a bit of baby food as a treat for him, its very wet so helps hydration too.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow.

Make sure to keep us updated on him though. not to jinx stuff, but Charles when he had PT for 4 days he went from "I'm dying" to "I'm going to make it" before he finally passed away. (Charles was a little Drama queen so I guess it made sense for him to do that). Btw. this doesn't sound like PT, there would be other symptoms.

Rule that has been true for all of my rats, day they stop eating and drinking they die. So as long as he's eating and drinking there is hope for him.

Tomorrow at the vets ask about Chronic Heart Failure, not sure if he's ever had symptoms like hanging his head off of levels a lot or getting tired quickly, but advanced CHF Can cause Peunomia like symptoms, but unlike Peunomia normally won't be fatal unless it's not treated for a few days. in which case some Fish might help him he feels like he's in the mood for eating sardines.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Oh this is good to hear! he looks like such a sweet boy. Keep us posted! 

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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

He's had some baby food and chocolate today. 
One thing that is really weird that I noticed while laying with him last night is his breath when he breaths out through his nose smells like something foul. I cant really describe it.. just like decay or feces or a mixture of them.
Anyone have any idea what that is about? He didn't smell like this before.

I've actually thought he had heart failure at one point Lightning and I asked my vet about it he listened to his heart for like 30 mins and said it sounds normal.
He does hang his head over ledges a lot but I think that might be from his breathing issues. He's never had a healthy respiratory system.

I'm afraid to try the inhaler again, I doubt the inhaler caused it but because after I used it he went downhill I really dont want to do it unless I feel like he is in distress and he isn't right now.
His breathing is heavy but he's breathing good for what's wrong with him and he's not gasping from his mouth.

He's stable enough I have him back in his cage and my boy Lenny is following him around playing nurse. Grooming him and being his hot water bottle/pillow. 

I will be sure to keep this updated. I'm going to be spending a lot of time stuck in my room so I've got plenty of time to be on here.. xD


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Can rats get sinus infections? That's what it sounds like to be honest.

you can try steaming him when you go to take a shower. Better then an inhaler for rats in my opinion since the warm air also helps their breathing.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm pretty sure anything with sinuses can get a sinus infection unless they have like super sinuses and rat's aren't know for having super healthy anything. xD
He could have a infection and pneumonia, I heard that hot steam is bad for a rat with pneumonia because they already have fluid in their lungs? 
I'll keep it in mind though if he starts to gasp again.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Forgot about Pneumonia, but now I'm not sure if this is Pneumonia anymore.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I think there's a good chance it is, I've had a lot of sinus infections myself and while it might have caused him to mouth breath I don't think he'd be having to use all his extra muscles to use his lungs if it was just his sinuses.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

His feet turned blue during a gasping fit.. 
I got him back under control but geeze..


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Poor little guy  


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

You wouldnt get abdominal breathing from a sinus infection, its a sign hes got a lot of fluid around his chest, or his chest is taken up by something else like abcesses or a tumour. Both unfortunatly do occur fairly commonly. Is he very noisy breathing or silent, and is there a lot of porph around his nose or is it clear fluid.

If your vet listens to his chest and thinks its pneumonia then a diuretic may help, this may flush some of the fluid out of his chest area and take the pressure off.

If its abcesses or a tumour then you should see some response from steroids, lung abcesses he may recover from, a tumour is bad news though.


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Well he's still alive and kickin so it's off to the vet today. I'll let everyone know what happens.

He has Porph, he's noisy when he breaths and seems to neeze gunk out occasionally.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

*refresh refresh refresh* early on i thought the little guy wasn't going to make it. Yesterday morning i was so excited he made it through the night after getting worse. Then i remembered he had a whole day left before getting to the vet! What a fighter! 

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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Well he's a tough ole guy. I guess he just loves his life and food to much to give it up yet.
I do know now that he's been sleeping in my bed he does not like to be put back in the cage lol.

I cant wait till our appointment the stress of what this could be is killing me.
He seems to be better than he was the day this started.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm glad he is slightly better, hopefully it's something that can be treated 


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Uh oh  looks like you have a new snuggle buddy. What time is the appointment? 

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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

The only one they had today is 4 pm so in two hours.

Lol to bad he likes to pee on my bed so it's currently covered in towels just in case. xD
I'm going to have to deep clean my bed when all this is over lol.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I don't know he's a cutie i might deal with him peeing the bed lol. Just get one of those mattress covers. 

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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Any news? 


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

Alrighty, sorry for the late news had to go get him some baby food and such.
My vet felt him up really deep and listened to his lungs.
He says his lungs sound clear but that he has a tumor in his abdomen and he thinks he might also have one in his lungs. But he also said he cant prove it without a xray and even if he does they cant remove a tumor from inside his lung.
He says he doesn't have pneumonia. He says there is a chance he's wrong and he has some kinda infection.
But ether way I'm keeping him on the steroids both for his back pain and breathing problems. He's still got a lot of antibiotics to go aswell.
What my vet advised I do is just keep him on the steroids for as long as he is stable and eating he says this could be for months which is a lot better than I expected.

Jasper himself has improved so much today to the point he is going up and down levels and such on his own without issue.
So, it's really just going to be a treat till he's given up or if it's a infection till the infection is gone. I guess I'll know for sure what one it is once he finishes this round of antibiotics. 

Jasper is stable and seems to be feeling a lot better with steroids. He should be with me for a while longer in short.
We both wanna thank everyone for keeping him in your thoughts! 
I'm upset he has a tumor but that is a lot better than what I figured was going to happen. I had this thought in the back of my head he had advance heart failure and that I'd have to put him to sleep.


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## LightningWolf (Jun 8, 2012)

Yeah. 

Who knows, he could of just decided to take a sick day (which is Odd for rats cause normally a sick day means dying, but I guess your guy wanted to scare you, didn't he?).


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

Aww, bless him, I'm crossing All my fingers and toes hoping its an infection, I'm glad he's more active today and perking up a bit  


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I hope he lives a lot longer. If he is as much of a fighter as he seems I think he will. I'm glad to hear he didn't have to be pts.


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Hugs, tumours are horrible, just lost one to something similar, I hoped it wasnt that. It sounds like its responding well to the teeatment though so hopefully youll get a good long happy spell with him. Hopefully its not that, slmetimes abcesses can mimic tumours, theres one type we see a bit here in the uk called ck, its forms cottage cheesy abcesses in the lungs (so dont feel fluidey, instead more silid) and makes them very ill, not really respond to antibiotics but some do recover. Steroids do seem to help that too. The tumour in his abdomum worries me more though, as if he does have 2 theres a fair chance its malignant which is nasty. Still as long as hes happy and not in pain you could have a lovely time together.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

poor little duude, im rootin for ya.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Fuzzy Rat went to the vet's Friday too. She has what appear to be massive mammary tumors. The vet checked her out and said it could be some kind of bacterial infection and also prescribed antibiotics. He claims if Fuzzy Rat has an infection she's on track to get 4 years old as she's otherwise in great shape. He also advised us that if they are tumors, they are inoperable and malignant and it's pretty much all over. How's that for a coin toss?

Seems like both diagnosis come down to whether the issues resolve themselves with antibiotics. So it's treat and hope for the best.

The coins are up in the air...

Best luck!


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

its gonna be a wild week. best of luck guys.


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## Ratfinx (Feb 19, 2013)

How's he doing? 


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## socal_sarah (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm a bit late to the party, but if he got worse with the inhaler, there's a chance that it still may be CHF. The albuterol opens airways, but also has a caffeine-like effect on the heart. In people, it can make you really jittery with heart palpitations. If he is already having heart problems, his heart going faster would in turn make him worse. I'm glad to hear that he's improved quite a bit after the steroids. Pearl did well for about 12 hrs after hers, then went right back down to the gasping/open mouth breathing with accessory muscle use. She wasn't improving on Baytril & only had 2 doses of Doxy before I decided that she was too far gone to save. :'(

Here's to hoping he stays improved for a LONG time. *fingers crossed*


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

its starting to sound like pulmonary abscesses and the steroids should make him more comfortabnle for sure, and may also shrink the tumour in his abdomen a bit. For PA I have had moderate luck with zithromax (with baytrl or doxy) for them, as most antibiotics do very little to these horrible abscesses in their lungs. It often makes their chest quite hard as they fill up the lungs...once they start losing drastic amounts of weight and aren't as comfortable anymore thant's when you consider having them put to sleep


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## Jokerfest (Sep 25, 2012)

I hope fuzzy rat does okay Rat Daddy! She's a amazing girl and good luck with her.

The inhaler didn't make him worse, I know this because he had a second episode and I had not used to inhaler on him since the first time.
I'm sorry about your girl though Sarah. 

I asked my vet about abscesses while I was there and he said it's not likely because his temp wasn't up like it would be with them. 
But honestly who knows if he has them or not.
There are so many things this could be including a virus because my colony was potentially exposed to one.
I'll just have to wait and see I guess.
I would go and have a ton of blood tests done and xrays but I really don't have the money to do that.
Just one xray would be 130 bucks and each blood test 100+ each. 
I'm not very well off in the money department seeing as how I'm disabled and cant work.



He is doing really well. Eating his baby food and cereal like a pig, drinking good, no gasping episodes.
He ate four big spoon fulls of rice baby cereal mixed with strawberry banana baby food for super.
He's always been a lazy guy but he's atleast back to his previous activity level instead of just sitting still and gasping all day.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you Jokerfest, we appreciate your sentiments.

You're giving your rats a great standard of care. The meds will work or they won't and a bunch of additional tests won't likely make a difference.

It sounds like you are through the worst of it for now... Old people and old animals just tend to rattle along like an old Oldsmobile. Every now and then something important falls off and they need a little patchwork, then they rattle onward again (just add gas and oil) until the next catastrophic pot hole. If things go well you guys might have many happy miles ahead of you yet.


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## socal_sarah (Mar 5, 2013)

Rat Daddy, that is the BEST metaphor for ratties that I've heard! ;D


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