# Debbie Ducommon



## amandad (Apr 20, 2015)

Hi. I'm unsure where to put this. I'm a member of multiple rat groups/forums and I heard some unsavory things about renowned "rat lady" Debbie Ducommon and I'm just wondering if any of you know much about her. If this isn't the correct place to put this, I'm sorry and please feel free to move it.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Umm I don't know. I have all her books and they are very useful. What exactly have heard about her that is bothering you?


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

she has herself admitted to doing surgeries with no anesthetic and no pain killers on rats and advised a new rat owner not to get pain meds or vet care for a rat with a broken leg on her facebook group


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Thanks for sharing. I didn't know as I'm not following her or checking her Facebook group. That's crazy and sick. She should be charged with animal cruelty then.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

word is getting around and that is the first step


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I personally haven't heard of Debbie Ducommon, but I'm not a big believer in talking *about* other rat owners on the internet. Perhaps, you might want to discuss her methods with her on her site rather than post "about" her here.

Or, perhaps, you might want to invite her to come here, to Rat Forum, to present her methods herself and you can present your counterpoint. This way we can fairly judge her methods as she presents them for ourselves. 

I might be the first person to agree with you, but not until both sides have had a fair chance to present their opinions on an equal footing. We all say things that can be taken out of context and occasionally we even say things that are wrong or even downright stupid when our fingers get ahead of our brains. This doesn't mean we're bad people or that we can't rethink what we have said given a reasonable counter argument. Everyone deserves a chance to explain or defend themselves...


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

She is a renowned rat expert who has written several books. None of these had stated any of that, but as Rat Daddy said you should go to the source. Rumors only beg confusion and hurt feelings.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I like all her books. Read them all many times. Anyone knows her personally?


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

I have been a part of her face book group and what KayRatz said is true to my knowledge. I read this as well but it is from 2013. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27652


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

it is not a rumor she outright admitted these things herself. there is no rumor about it. she silences anyone who tries to talk to her about it by deleting their posts. she is not just any owner, she has been hailed as THE rat lady. the expert, for as long as i can remember. it is very important that new rat owners know the truth and do NOT follow her blindly. the fact that you do not know of her tells me you have not spent much time in the online rat community. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27652


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

In all honesty, I'd have to agree with not treating a broken leg unless it's either breaking the skin or at such an angle that it wouldn't heal properly. I can't imagine a vet attempting to cast or splint a rat's leg and it'd probably do more harm than good. Do I agree with not giving pain medication? That's more debatable. If an animal's pain is intense enough to cause outward behavior changes that you can notice (especially lack of appetite) then it's probably a good idea to give pain meds. Overdoing pain meds can have a negative effect in that it might make an animal that needs to stay relatively still more likely to want to be mobile. We really have a skewed perception of animal pain and treatment since, as humans, we have the ability to understand having our body parts immobilized for extended periods of time in order to heal whereas the natural thing for most animals to do is go on acting normal so that they won't seem weak to predators.

Before I get ripped a knew one for my opinion (which I'm not trying to push on anyone else), I have to say that I would probably take a rat to a vet if it had a broken leg...would I expect the vet to do anything even slightly helpful? Not really. But just for peace of mind. 

(I'll also state that I have 3 years of official laboratory veterinary training in the care specifically of rats and mice, so I'm not basing my opinions off of the opinion of any self-proclaimed rat experts on the internet)


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

would you recommend home surgery on a compound fracture with no pain meds or anesthetic? just one of the things debbie has stated she has done.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

Unless someone has a sterile operating room and a proper anesthesia pump, I would not condone making any sort of incision in an animal. Like I said, I don't know Debbie or have any idea of the things she claims to do. If she is actually doing surgery that requires incisions then she better hope she doesn't end up with a disgruntled patron if something goes wrong. However, I can't see how she could be doing anything that major without the use of sedatives....and there's no telling how much of what she says is actually true this being the internet and all.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

KayRatz,

I suppose that no one should ever follow anyone blindly... ever. Even the best experts get it wrong sometimes. I think your point is well made and appropriate. 
I just think you could have been as eloquent at making your point without specifically naming one individual as an example...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

People are either one way or the other about her. She has some valuable info in her books but she also has some questionable material, like her wonderful guide on how to euthanize your rats at home with baking soda and vinegar. Not a fan, personally.

Anyway, if this thread turns into a slam fest, I will close it. Keep it appropriate please.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Rat Daddy said:


> Or, perhaps, you might want to invite her to come here, to Rat Forum, to present her methods herself and you can present your counterpoint. This way we can fairly judge her methods as she presents them for ourselves.


I suspect she's not interested in being a part of a community where she has no power. As you've seen, if you disagree with her, they'll just delete your posts and/or ask you to leave. 

The Rat Fan Club Facebook page is notorious for this. They are also known to gang up on members whom post opposing information and run them off the page. It's really not pretty from what I've seen. There are quite a few complaint threads on here about it.



JAnimal said:


> I have been a part of her face book group and what KayRatz said is true to my knowledge. I read this as well but it is from 2013. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27652


Holy crap, that's terrifying. I can't believe I haven't seen that yet.


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

I don't want to comment on her, but advice from online / strangers in general. Don't follow just one person's advice especially when they call themselves an expert, look at all the possible answers and advice and weigh it for yourself. Nowadays anyone can (self)publish a book, make promotional material and have internet fame it doesn't validate everything they are saying.

In case of emergency an actual vet that has experience treating and operating on rats should be the first person you talk to. There are times when the vet isn't open and I think it's okay to ask online for ways to make your rat comfortable, but to actually do surgery yourself endangers the rat and causes pain for everyone involved. 

The facebook group can be helpful in regards to how quickly everyone responds in an emergency. There's over 18,000 members and you'll have a few bad apples, and plenty of spam, but I see the majority of people respond with kindness.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Kelsbels said:


> I don't want to comment on her, but advice from online / strangers in general. Don't follow just one person's advice especially when they call themselves an expert, look at all the possible answers and advice and weigh it for yourself. Nowadays anyone can (self)publish a book, make promotional material and have internet fame it doesn't validate everything they are saying.
> 
> In case of emergency an actual vet that has experience treating and operating on rats should be the first person you talk to. There are times when the vet isn't open and I think it's okay to ask online for ways to make your rat comfortable, but to actually do surgery yourself endangers the rat and causes pain for everyone involved.
> 
> The facebook group can be helpful in regards to how quickly everyone responds in an emergency. There's over 18,000 members and you'll have a few bad apples, and plenty of spam, but I see the majority of people respond with kindness.


Yeah, but as someone mentioned, the issue is that Debbie's advice is put out like it substitutes for vet care. I know she's been a part of the rat community for a very long time and undoubtedly has a lot of hands on experience and so on... But a vet has the precise knowledge, training, and equipment that she simply doesn't. We have our own warning on the health section for that reason, even though we have members like Isamu and lilspaz who have been around rats for years, too. Someone whom calls themselves the "Rat Lady" will undoubtedly be held to high esteem, and it's the rat who suffers when second opinions, especially those of an animal health professional, are not sought. It's just dangerous.

But yes, I echo that: do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Never rely on the advice of any sole person, self acclaimed expert or not.


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## Kelsbels (Aug 12, 2015)

Jaguar said:


> Yeah, but as someone mentioned, the issue is that Debbie's advice is put out like it substitutes for vet care.


That's the part that makes me nauseated, she isn't trained or licensed but people will blindly follow the advice. Out of both desperation and inexperience.

When I started reading up about keeping rats she's the one that immediately pops up in searches. Doing some more digging and you find "this" information and, yeah, I stay out of it. So as someone who not so long ago was new again to rat care I can say her presence is large especially to newbies. With this home surgery advice floating around someone is bound to follow it.

We can't change one person's practices. The best thing we can all do as a community is to be helpful and humble, and maybe this will change things.


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## Kuildeous (Dec 26, 2014)

Kelsbels said:


> That's the part that makes me nauseated, she isn't trained or licensed but people will blindly follow the advice. Out of both desperation and inexperience.


I'm just impressed to see a correct usage of "nauseated." 

It's easy for new owners (and I was one a year ago) to get the wrong idea. I did a lot of checking around, and I found the information overwhelming. Even if someone on one of these forums doesn't give bad advice, it's easy for an overwhelmed newbie to misinterpret the advice or conflate it with something irrelevant or contradictory. 

Bruxing is an example of that. I'm sure it's been covered before I arrived here, but at the time I was researching rats, I got it in my head that bruxing was always a sign of happiness. It wasn't until later that I found assertions to the contrary. Once I read that it can also be tied to stress, I see why it makes sense that my girls were bruxing oh so heavily in their new home.

I'd never heard of this woman. Most of my rat knowledge came from here with some Google links going to other places. I may have read some things from her and didn't pay attention to who was saying it.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Rat Daddy said:


> KayRatz,I suppose that no one should ever follow anyone blindly... ever. Even the best experts get it wrong sometimes. I think your point is well made and appropriate. I just think you could have been as eloquent at making your point without specifically naming one individual as an example...


i only name the one person because she is held in such high regard.in the rat community


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

I think when someone puts themselves out there as an expert of the rat community and gives advice then they are putting themselves up for critique and opinions.

She has some great information but alot of the health stuff is not IMO. 

She was supposed to be going to an expo and advertised that she would do tumor removal on rats while she was in town. The expo removed her from their lineup after this....

I can not support someone doing surgery on any animal when they are not a licensed vet. Which she is not. If she wants to do all this medical stuff she should go to school and become a vet.

I believe there is alot of things we can do for our pets at home ourselves and even more so when you have experience & knowledge behind them. But surgery is not one of those things.

So much could go very wrong. I would question how she is getting the correct anesthesia (if she even uses it now). How sterile the environment is- was she planning on doing this out of a hotel room?? 
I also question the legality of it all. People are saying in her state she is allowed to perform surgery on her own animals and others if she did not charge. But...it just doesn't seem right. I know when I have volunteered working with animals there were definite legal things we could and could not do. 

I also question her sanity at advertising this. We are such a sue happy country and that just does not seem wise in the least bit...


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

The thing about advice is just that. It's an advisement of someone's opinion, informed or otherwise. What behooves us is what advice to take and what advice to discard. What I have learned in my journey with my babies is this: A) Not everyone is right B) Don't follow every bit of information blindly C) Don't be so sensitive when thing don't go your way D) Not everyone is wrong E) Just do the BEST for your babies. I have Ms. Ducommon's "Rats: Practical Advice from the Expert" and it is very informative. It backed up some advice that was given to me in the beginning. Her knowledge stems from her past positions as a vet assistant and she helped run a lab and various other stuff. Like I said, it's a take it or leave it type situation.


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## Rhonwen (Dec 29, 2014)

I've been watching a few different topics concern Debbie around the internet. I can tell you for certain, what she's doing is absolutely illegal in MD and PA. There is always wiggle room depending on how you look at the law, some things are allowed - like giving your rats Bayril and Doxy. Performing surgery to remove a tumor - that's a little different. You are directly impacting the welfare of said animal. 

I'm a part of a few FB groups, and know several folks have called the SPCA as well as a department of the government (I forget the name, I'll look it up shortly), to report her. Someone was ready to have the SPCA as well as Local law officials on hand to confront her at the MD expo, until she made the announcement that she would not be attending. 

I'm sure she has some very good bits of advise in her books, but I'm personally not going to follow the advise of someone who does euthanasia and surgery without the 8 years of school a veterinarian license requires.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

That was my post on Rat Shack about Chance...and yes she does come under a lot of scrutiny since she's decided she is the Rat Lady Expert. Debbie started off really well, she had the most up to date information years ago when the rat fancy was newer, but now she stopped learning, she falls back on her old archaic methods which a lot have been disproven. There's more like 2 camps now, there's Ratguide.com followers and Debbie D followers or RFC. I prefer the constantly being updated ratguide.com, and no one gets deleted from groups for using it LOL

A newbie or someone researching something should never take the first answer as gospel. If you keep hearing the same thing over and over, then its a good chance its one of those common knowledge things, but remember that owning/treating rats is on-the-job training and a lot of good info is stuck inside peoples heads needing to be shared. Forums like these are the best way to get multiple views and suggestions. One person only has one outlook, and may miss some small description of something that leads to a rat being successfully diagnosed and treated at the vets.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

lilspaz68 said:


> That was my post on Rat Shack about Chance.


I can't belive that I didn't notice it was you. You have the same name!


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

i would be an awful rat owner if not for forums. my first three rats lived in a twenty gallon tank with no toys and pine shavings.


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## abratforarat (Jan 12, 2014)

*lilspaz68, that was YOU? I'm so sorry. Debbie is awful!*


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Folks....

Can't we somehow perhaps agree or disagree with someone or their methods without otherwise letting this become a personal attack?

We're a pretty small community and in the end we have to help each other out. It's OK to disagree with someone, and it's perfectly fine to say so, but whether I believe that someone is actually good at doing rat surgery at home or not doesn't make them a good or a bad person.

I don't know Debbie and I absolutely hate being the person who's defending her, but whatever else she is or thinks she is, she's still a fellow rat owner and I'm not convinced she is intentionally trying to hurt her or anyone else's rats... She may in fact be wrong but that doesn't make her evil.

If this were a debate over do it yourself rat surgery, I might have an opinion to express on the topic, but this isn't that. As to whether Debbie can do rat surgery or not... I can't say... I don't know her, but unless I knew her pretty well I wouldn't let her operate on my rats. If she really can do it... big if.. and does it for free; good on her. If she operates on people's rats and can't, we'll hear about it soon enough. It's a small community and B S doesn't fly for too long. As to any other advise she gives people, I suppose that should stand or fall on it's own merits. But there's nothing that undermines someone's credibility faster than people taking their advise and it not working. Regardless of what she says she does, if she is really killing people's rats we'll hear about it.

I do agree that forums like this are far better than personal web sites or face book pages.. I'm not saying that group think is always right, but it gives people options to hear different opinions and make up their own minds. And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone and expressing your opinion or giving someone the benefit of your experience, but when the discussion gets personal people are going to get offended and the free flow of differing opinions is going to be impeded. And I've seen several rat sites where there's only one consensus opinion because dissenting opinions were driven off and in my own opinion they are the lesser for it.

Just remember.... some late night, when you've had one too many to drink or are just too tired, you are going to type something really stupid or really badly worded and then push send instead of delete. Perhaps something you don't even really believe, but thought to yourself was funny... It won't make you evil... The next morning, you'll be appreciative of anyone who catches your mistake and corrects your post, but not so much if they launch a personal attack on you.

Agree or disagree with someone, you have the right and perhaps even the responsibility... but always keep everyone's feelings in mind. Personal attacks just lead to flame wars and flame wars divide communities. 

More than anything else we need to stick together, to promote a better life for our rats and other people's rats, to promote public awareness of rats as pets and as companion animals and to advance public concern for animal welfare in general. And perhaps to even support businesses and organizations that support us... there are enough people out there that are against us and we can't go around shooting each other in the foot if we can possibly avoid it.


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

Debbie Ducommun, known to many as 'The Rat Lady', is internationally recognized as an expert on domestic rats. She founded The Rat Fan Club in 1992 and since then has published the club's monthly newsletter, 'the Rat Report.' She has also worked in the animal care industry as a veterinary assistant, dog obedience instructor, manager of an animal shelter, and manager of the rat laboratory at California State University at Chico. She graduated from CSU, Chico in 1980 with honors and a bachelor of arts degree in Animal Behavior, and has also completed graduate classes in nutrition. Ducommun has had numerous articles published in national animal magazines and since 1997 has written a column on small animals for 'Pet Business' magazine. Ducommun is author of the book _Rats! A Fun and Care Book_ published by Bowtie Press in 1998. In 1995 she wrote the 'Rat Health Care' booklet, which is in its 6th edition and has sold over 4,000 copies.
Ducommun continues to expand her knowledge of rats on a daily basis. She lives in Chico, CA with her husband and 23 rats. She manages The Rat Fan Club website below and can be reached by email at [email protected]


Just a blurb off of a site. Make your own decisions.


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## abratforarat (Jan 12, 2014)

We aren't trying to start a civil war. But I think Debbie is not the rat lady, nor is she responsible. She has caused many a rat pain, suffering, and even death (Chance). And no, Rat Daddy, I don't think she was drunk or tired when she operated on her rats, left them to suffer, told poor lizpan86 to not bring Chance to the vet, or told everyone to let their rats suffer!!!!!! Debbie D. can't be trusted, and that's my theory.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've written for one of BowTie's magazines.... They really were nice people and they do pay you.... eventually... Funniest thing, I wrote for the magazine and when the check finally came from BowTie.... my wife threw it out and I found it in the trash because I didn't know they had bought the magazine between me writing the article and them publishing it and paying me... On the up side I got paid almost twice the original contracted amount, and I didn't have to do the artwork, so I was happy.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

abratforarat,

I don't think anyone should be blindly trusted... everyone screws up eventually. And I have no disagreement with your opinion regarding whether people should bring rats to a vet or give them pain meds. And I think very few people are qualified to do operations on rats and that includes vets. I feel a lot more comfortable with the way you worded that post, I think you make your point clear and hopefully without offending anyone. Honest and direct, but polite.


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## amandad (Apr 20, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> I personally haven't heard of Debbie Ducommon, but I'm not a big believer in talking *about* other rat owners on the internet. Perhaps, you might want to discuss her methods with her on her site rather than post "about" her here.
> 
> Or, perhaps, you might want to invite her to come here, to Rat Forum, to present her methods herself and you can present your counterpoint. This way we can fairly judge her methods as she presents them for ourselves.
> 
> I might be the first person to agree with you, but not until both sides have had a fair chance to present their opinions on an equal footing. We all say things that can be taken out of context and occasionally we even say things that are wrong or even downright stupid when our fingers get ahead of our brains. This doesn't mean we're bad people or that we can't rethink what we have said given a reasonable counter argument. Everyone deserves a chance to explain or defend themselves...


I was _only_ trying to gather information about her and about whether these claims are true. I'm not trying to talk *about* her or start rumors (and it's disrespectful of you to suggest that I did this to start rumors), I'm trying to get information _on_ her so I know more about what is going on. I did not repeat what is being said about her. I'm curious about what is going on and do not want to believe anything until I see some sources. I'm sorry to sound defensive but you're making it sound like this is some elementary school playground "talk behind their backs" session when it isn't and I'm only trying to get sources for myself so I know whether or not to believe things that are being said. That is the kind of person I am: I try to gather enough facts to form my own opinion. 



Verucasdad said:


> She is a renowned rat expert who has written several books. None of these had stated any of that, but as Rat Daddy said you should go to the source. Rumors only beg confusion and hurt feelings.


After reading the entire 4 pages of posts, they aren't rumors. And please do not disrespect me by thinking I was starting rumors when I was trying to obtain the sources you scolded me, and the poster below me, for not obtaining before coming here and asking for information.



KayRatz said:


> it is not a rumor she outright admitted these things herself. there is no rumor about it. she silences anyone who tries to talk to her about it by deleting their posts. she is not just any owner, she has been hailed as THE rat lady. the expert, for as long as i can remember. it is very important that new rat owners know the truth and do NOT follow her blindly. the fact that you do not know of her tells me you have not spent much time in the online rat community. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27652


 Is ratshack the forum that she created? Also, what is her Facebook group that everyone is referring to, is it "The Rat Fan Club"?



Jaguar said:


> But yes, I echo that: do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Never rely on the advice of any sole person, self acclaimed expert or not.


 And this is what I'm trying to do. Get information on her so I can make an informed opinion of her for myself. As well as trying to figure out whether or not these claims from people about her are true. I'm sorry this thread created some drama on here...


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

I think there might be two Debbies...


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## RattieFosters (Aug 8, 2015)

Okay, you know what? No. Debbie Ducommon is putting information out there about rats, calling herself an expert, and going as far as to argue about proper medical care for rats with someone who is a professional in the field of animal medical care on at least one occasion (the vet tech in the Facebook chat). At this point, she is no longer just a person expressing her views. She is intentionally giving medical advice to people she does not know, and recommending (if not instructing) that they do not seek the opinion of an actual professional. In my opinion, it is completely appropriate to discuss this on a public forum.

And let's be honest. If this woman was operating on dogs with no sedatives, and recommending that you don't give pain medication to a dog with a broken leg, there would be no discussion. She would be labelled as a crazy animal abuser and no one would listen to her. The only reason she's gotten where she is is because the medical science of rats is not as refined as other companion animals.

But come on people. Really? You cannot convince me for a second that any animal on this planet doesn't feel pain if you cut them open. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's biologically impossible, because any species that had that ability, would be extinct. We feel pain to let ourselves know we've been wounded and need to escape the situation. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL HAS THIS. I can't believe anyone ever actually believed that crap when she wrote it in the first place!

The point of this forum is to discuss the topic of rat ownership and their care in the hopes that we can all become better rat owners. Saying we shouldn't criticize someone who is spreading information that has the potential to be incredibly bad for rats is ridiculous. That would be like if someone made a post hailing the wonders of pine bedding, or plastic hamster cages, or feeding an all corn diet, and we all turned the other way and said 'Well, that's their opinion.'. I don't think that's the point of this forum. That's not bettering the rat community. That's polluting it with mis-information that will ultimately lead not to our misfortune, but to the misfortune of our rats, who don't deserve to be given improper just because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings by saying they've got their facts wrong.


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## Rhonwen (Dec 29, 2014)

Debbie’s actions is not a question of Moral ethics – it’s a question of LAW. Simply put – it is AGAINST THE LAW for anyone to perform surgery on an animal who DOES NOT have a Veterinarian license. It is not a question of making this a personal attack, this is not a question of whether she CAN do the surgeries, whether she’s good at them, her success rate. It is a matter of her NOT having gone to school for 8 years. She does these surgeries in HOTEL rooms (at least when she’s not in CA she does. She was planning on meeting at least one person in Pittsburg PA to perform a surgery). That is NOT a sterile environment. She’s getting her drugs illegially from China for cripes sake! 

Believe me when I say I am absolutely sticking together with my fellow rattie lovers/owners. I am looking to the welfare of the animals – and Debbie Ducommon is a detriment to their welfare if she’s doing home surgery.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I intended no disrespect towards anyone... in fact my posts were about trying to respect everyone.. If I offended you, then I apologize.

But I can also say that I believe that rats feel pain and I can say that I believe that an all corn diet is unhealthy for rats and I can provide support for my opinion without suggesting anything else about the original posters character or personality... 

I've been around on-line a bit longer than I'd like to admit, in the rat community and on other forums and I've seen too many flame wars and witch hunts... Respectfully submitted, I don't think anyone in particular was trying to start one here... but I've seen them almost organically develop once emotions flare... And I've actually seen some web sites become completely intolerant of some ideas and even some individuals. And yes, I've seen some very nice people flamed off of web sites for having an unpopular opinion. Sometimes they were wrong, and sometimes they were just out of step with the consensus of opinion at the time.

The question might become "Should we tolerate people with archaic methods, dissenting opinions, or inferior practices in our community?" Or perhaps, "Should we allow certain people to post advise we disapprove of?" And if we start asking ourselves those questions, we are already out there on the slippery slope.

We may not agree with someone when it comes to rat surgery, but they may have perfectly valid opinions on their choice of water bottles or rat diets and they may even have a good idea when it comes to litter box training that we can all benefit from. One bad idea doesn't an evil person make. 

One very good point has been made in this thread however... no one should blindly follow anyone else. Everyone can be wrong sometimes. Or sometimes they might just be less right than someone else. 

I think it's a good idea to feel free to post our opinions and forums are great places for debate. There should be no sacred cows, not when it comes to methods or even individuals. I think it's important to feel free to disagree with someone and post a cogent argument supporting your position. But I think we have to limit ourselves so that everyone can feel safe when they post their opinions... 

Perhaps, I'm overly sensitive, and again if I sounded like a school teacher scolding anyone I do apologize sincerely. As I stated from the beginning, I'm not defending a single thing that Debbie said, nor am I approving of the way she runs her web site or face book page, nor am I discouraging fair and open debate on any particular subject... I'm just expressing my own opinion, for what little it might be worth to anyone else, that we all try and be respectful and avoid hurt feelings, even if the people we are trying to respect aren't always respectful of others...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I think people need to be aware that everyone is human, I'm really not a fan of some of the things DD says, but on others she actually presents some fairly good, if sometimes outdated arguments and information. I think the surgery without being a vetinary surgeon is completely wrong and it scares me that people online genuinely are happy to go along and let her operate on her rats, much like the idea of operating on a human without being qualified. Its as much about knowing what to do if things go wrong as knowing what to do in the first place. Its like me, who did work experience in a vets for a while when I was younger (and hadn't realised I might punch a neglectful owner should I actually qualify lol) and watching many many spays and castrates of dogs and cats. The castration in particular was so simple that I could clearly picture every step in my head. That doesn't make me qualified.

The lack of pain medication for some minor breaks or sprains I can understand, but having seen the thread in question there was no attempt made to establish the condition of the rat, and ultimately if a rat is bad enough to seemingly go into shock over it (which I suspect is what happened) he clearly needed anti inflammatorys. The lack of pain killers for ops I haven't seen any evidence of her specifically saying (though I could believe it) I have seen her agree with someone that rats don't need pain killers much as they are "stoic" though.

What frustrates me most about the situation is due to the numbers of people on the RFC group lots of naive people join, often relying on it for info. They don't necessarily realised there are other good options which aren't heavily censored to a particular view point. I actually genuinely dislike too much censoring, and do like that this forum and a couple others I'm a member of allows disagreements.

I think it's important for people to question and always be ready to look into things a little themselves. I do have a lot of folk come to me for advice online too but genuinely hope they do a bit of research themselves before blindly following my advise lol, or at least make sure to consider different options and view points. What dangerous is following anyone blindly. And I say this after having one person I initially respected a lot in the UK Rat fancy turn out to not be trustworthy at all and hurt a lot of people in the process.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose it would matter to me first and paramount, whether someone can actually do a particular surgery successfully, what their success rate was and what my other options were at the time. 

I'm not saying legal issues aren't important, but if someone can't do the surgery they're irrelevant. If someone really can do the surgery successfully... then it may very much become a legal issue.. that said if we cross a border and do the surgery where it is legal... does that make it better or worse?

... and that just might take us into a moral and ethical quagmire.... Yikes!

Please don't get offended.... I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just playing devil's advocate.. perhaps literally the devil's advocate... to prove my point that anything can be calmly and rationally argued. And that intelligent people with cool minds are likely to make the right decisions when confronted with all sides of a debate. 

And even in the worst (best) case scenario if someone does offer rat surgery from their home, it doesn't mean I'll be in the front of the line if there's any better or safer option to be had... And I think most people might agree with me there? But if they don't, they should feel free to disagree with me.

Perhaps, I might make my own position clear when I comes to surgery... I recently spent six months living on a fistful of pain pills every day, disabled at home, while waiting to be operated on by a top rated surgeon. There were plenty of other doctors that could have done the operation the same week, but I held out for the very best.... and it was worth it... And when my daughter was born there were two board certified obstetricians and a licensed midwife and a surgical team present as well as an infant pediatrician for the baby and yes the delivery was in a hospital. And as it turned out, I was very glad everyone was there when things went pear shaped. Given a choice, I'd try and have the best qualified person operate on my rats, not just anyone that could or would or I might even forgo the surgery if I felt it couldn't be done successfully or humanly. But everyone has to make their own call. And this too can be debated.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm sorry... I do respect your opinion, but if you feel there might be a better way of me expressing my opinion on personal attacks on the internet without making you sick, please feel free to offer your suggestions.


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## RattieFosters (Aug 8, 2015)

My issue with the whole 'everyone makes mistakes and you shouldn't judge' thing, is that her 'mistake' is causing the pain an suffering and in some cases the death of pet rats. And worse, she's not even willing to admit she's done wrong. She inadvertently killed another person's pet and refuses to even acknowledge that she was wrong. That's not just 'a mistake' anymore. She is intentionally spreading information that has the potential to KILL a rat.

I think it's ridiculous to say 'oh, we shouldn't judge her on one little mistake' when that mistake is a deadly one. Like I honestly can't even believe it's a debate. SHE'S OPERATING ON RATS WITHOUT ANY FORMAL TRAINING. AT ALL. That should never ever be acceptable. Ever. Regardless of the animal or how 'good' the surgeries are. Unless you've been properly trained, you don't know how to do a surgery. Vet school doesn't take 8 years because it's easy. Would you let someone with a Bachelor of Arts perform oral surgery on you because they've been interested in teeth for 20 years? No, you would not.

Saying this is anything but a horror story is holding rats to a lower standard of care than what humans or other animals should receive, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing! You wouldn't allow yourself to be operated on without painkillers. You wouldn't allow your horse to be operated on without painkillers. You wouldn't allow your dog to be operated on without painkillers. But suddenly when it's a rat, it's worth debating. Because hey, it's just a rat, right?


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## abratforarat (Jan 12, 2014)

I think we should stop arguing. It will turn into an unneeded fight.


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## abratforarat (Jan 12, 2014)

Not that I'm not horrified by Debbie D.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> I suppose it would matter to me first and paramount, whether someone can actually do a particular surgery successfully, what their success rate was and what my other options were at the time.


Im not sure I agree with that. And I am not sure if anyone can really know for sure.... she doesn't have to report to anyone or keep records. She could tell us that she has 99% success rate but who knows if there is any truth to that or not? And what % of success is ok? 

Doing surgery in your home, owners homes or hotels... is always going to be far more risky then going to a vet. 




> Please don't get offended.... I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just playing devil's advocate.. perhaps literally the devil's advocate... to prove my point that anything can be calmly and rationally argued. And that intelligent people with cool minds are likely to make the right decisions when confronted with all sides of a debate.


But to what point? I just don't get the point of playing devils advocate or wanting to even on this topic??

Because it sounds like you are saying that everyone else is being just not smart, not cool headed, irrational, etc... 

I think almost all of the posts in this thread were well thought out discussions, weighing the facts that they knew or what they had heard and forming an opinion. 

Animal welfare is a sensitive topic and it does get emotions high. But that does not mean we can't be rational as well. 

We are not discussing that we dislike her for using a different brand of food then we prefer...we feel she is making bad ethical choices, putting animals lives in danger, perhaps cruelty, etc... I do feel she is a bad irresponsible person for making those choices.
So I am fine saying I don't think she is a good person. That is my opinion. 

We are allowed to have different opinions and I think we are all smart enough people to be able to form those opinions without someone talking down to us or try to calm the crowd....


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So, lets not argue, we're all hopefully among friends and we don't actually disagree on much.. 

What's the real message that's worth sharing here? As we have all apparently agreed that no one should blindly take anyone's advise, is it 

(a) that certain practices are arcane and wrong or 

(b) that someone is a terrible person? 

I've got no problem with option (a) but you lose me at option (b), it's unnecessary and perhaps a bit redundant. 

When you debunk the message, the messenger become irrelevant. A lot of former rat experts have gone irrelevant and forgotten because they didn't keep up with the times or wound up on the losing side of history... one more or less isn't worth getting anyone's hands dirty over. The more bazaar her claims, the faster she will take herself out of the ecosystem, without help from anyone here. I'm not suggesting anyone should join her face book group and I think it might even be worthwhile to intellectually debunk her message when you see it repeated, but you don't need to bop her with a shovel, just let her dig her own grave. 

It's all about kindness, compassion and decorum and setting limits on the right side of character assassination.

And honestly I do believe everyone is entitled to express their opinion, I just get uncomfortable when I see what starts to look like a lynch mob forming... That's just me...


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

As much as would love to be disgusted by her on my computer (which I actually would really like to do) simply stating that she is horrible, crazy, or disgusting isn't going to change anything or do much. One side note though I believe that she said it is legal as long as she isn't charging people.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

abratforarat said:


> *lilspaz68, that was YOU? I'm so sorry. Debbie is awful!*


Ohh no not my rat!! I just posted the story for others on RatShack. I wouldn't need to ask Debbie what to do LOLOLOL

People just need to realize just because someone is called something (eg. The Rat Lady) or an actual vet, does not make them know everything, and if you aren't sure of something, ask questions, and research. There are a LOT of owners out there who will absolutely believe anything said to them by someone who "should" know (like their vet), even when the rest of the world knows that the animal is in danger from the treatment.


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## ratluver372 (Jul 9, 2013)

I have seen the screenshots (and I have met her).

Yes, things can be taken out of context. I believe some of that has happened. I do think that she's not the best at expressing herself sometimes. However, there are some screenshots that are very clear in what she is saying. She clearly was looking for people with tumors in the Maryland/Pittsburg area. She trusted people enough to pm with them about her background and what she planned to do and where she planned to do it. The legality of what she intended to do is determined by what state she was going to be in. (For example, in one state that I know of, surgery would be OK IF she did not receive ANY compensation, even plane tickets.) Unfortunately, rats are not protected as well as other animals because of the labs.

I believe that people are assuming that she does not do surgeries without anesthesia because it is illegal for her to have it. I can't say that I have seen screenshots where she said that she does surgery without it. (I did see the pain killer one and the broken leg, not anything about anesthesia.) However, the flip side of that is maybe that she does use anesthesia, just obtained illegally. So, I believe that part about not using anesthesia is an assumption. (If someone does have a screenshot of her saying that she does surgery without anesthesia, I would be interested to see that.)

My understanding is that she is now under investigation. If that is the case, we'll see what happens. I would assume that she has been advised not to discuss any matters relating to this, so asking her would likely be moot at this point.

For now, everyone should read the information posted and make their own judgments. Just don't base what you have to say on what other people are saying- make your judgments based on what you actually see. There are people that are defending her that say some things are being taken out of context. Maybe. Some are saying that the screenshots are fake. Well, if FB has to cough up the records to prove that they are not, we'll see what is said then. 

If you Google it, you can see a very long convo regarding the broken leg. That gives a little bit more context than some of the snippets I have seen recently.


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## ratluver372 (Jul 9, 2013)

So, I didn't realize there were so many pages already, and I thought I was responding after only the first page! Sorry. I think it still makes sense, though! Make sure to not assume.


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## ratluver372 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ha! Look at me! "Don't assume", but I said I'd assume that Debbie was advised not to talk about it. This was in response to something on the first page of this, when someone said to ask her directly. You could try, I just would think she wouldn't talk about much with someone she doesn't know.


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## amandad (Apr 20, 2015)

RattieFosters said:


> But come on people. Really? You cannot convince me for a second that any animal on this planet doesn't feel pain if you cut them open. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's biologically impossible, because any species that had that ability, would be extinct. We feel pain to let ourselves know we've been wounded and need to escape the situation. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL HAS THIS. I can't believe anyone ever actually believed that crap when she wrote it in the first place!


 I did not believe that for a second. I closed one of my girls' paws in the cage door completely by accident and she squeaked and held onto her paw for a minute and licked it. So, rats pain receptors are still very much there. I can't believe she even said that. 


Rat Daddy said:


> I intended no disrespect towards anyone... in fact my posts were about trying to respect everyone.. If I offended you, then I apologize.
> 
> But I can also say that I believe that rats feel pain and I can say that I believe that an all corn diet is unhealthy for rats and I can provide support for my opinion without suggesting anything else about the original posters character or personality...
> 
> ...


Thank you for your apology. I must apologize myself for misunderstanding your intentions. 
Rats certainly do feel pain; read above. 
Yes. I read about Debbie having books and being an acclaimed and prominent person in the rat community. Then I read some unsavory things about her, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it and see if what was being said was indeed true. That’s all my intentions were for creating this topic. I’m new to being a rat parent and I want to learn as much as I can about them so I’m more confident with future rats, and if reading one of Debbie’s books would help with that, then so be it. However, I also do not want to support someone who is doing things that are considered to be animal cruelty, which is why I sought out the truth – to make my own decision and form my own opinion as to not be following her blindly. 


JAnimal said:


> As much as would love to be disgusted by her on my computer (which I actually would really like to do) simply stating that she is horrible, crazy, or disgusting isn't going to change anything or do much. One side note though I believe that she said it is legal as long as she isn't charging people.


 I really do not think what she is doing is anywhere near legal. She doesn't have a license. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to practice any form of medicine without a license.


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## ratluver372 (Jul 9, 2013)

Regarding the legality- the rules vary from state to state. It was said that it would be illegal for her to do in MD or PA. However, it is legal in CA and AZ. However, I do know for a fact that it would be illegal for her to do it in AZ IF she accepted anything at all, like plane tickets. 

Rats are exempt from many of the protections that other animals receive because of the labs.

My understanding is these loopholes in the laws that allow you to do surgery on your own animal were meant for farmers and ranchers and such to be able to do simple procedure on their herds (maybe why the legality varies from MD/PA to AZ/CA?).


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## amandad (Apr 20, 2015)

ratluver372 said:


> Regarding the legality- the rules vary from state to state. It was said that it would be illegal for her to do in MD or PA. However, it is legal in CA and AZ. However, I do know for a fact that it would be illegal for her to do it in AZ IF she accepted anything at all, like plane tickets.
> 
> Rats are exempt from many of the protections that other animals receive because of the labs.
> 
> My understanding is these loopholes in the laws that allow you to do surgery on your own animal were meant for farmers and ranchers and such to be able to do simple procedure on their herds (maybe why the legality varies from MD/PA to AZ/CA?).


On the first page, there's a link in the last post. Reading through that, the vet tech provided a link stating that what Debbie is doing is illegal. But yes, I would have to agree with the farm/ranch loopholes on the law. Though, I would assume you would have to own a farm or ranch and animals to be able to be "exempt" from the law that states it would be illegal (if it were illegal according to law - which, it should be in any state unless you have said ranch/farm and animals)? There were a lot of farms here in PA though, not very many anymore - at least not producing/working farms.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

The other big issue that's hidden in plain sight is her home euthanasia guide. You can read it on her site here: http://www.ratfanclub.org/euth.html

She tries to make it look good by saying "Euthanasia with CO2 is approved by the AVMA". If you actually read the AVMA's guidelines to humane euthanasia, they discuss in depth on how CO2 is know to cause adverse reactions in a fair amount of cases, and also state that it must come from a pure source (bottle, etc.), must be able to be measured, and must not come from a chemical process like sublimation (dry ice) or... baking soda and vinegar. Which is what Debbie uses, and suggests in her guide. 



> Carbon dioxide and CO2 gas mixtures must be supplied in a precisely regulated and purified form without contaminants or adulterants, typically from a commercially supplied cylinder or tank. The direct application of products of combustion or sublimation is not acceptable due to unreliable or undesirable composition and/or displacement rate. As gas displacement rate is critical to the humane application of CO2, an appropriate pressure-reducing regulator and flow meter or equivalent equipment with demonstrated capability for generating the recommended displacement rates for the size container being utilized is absolutely necessary.


I honestly don't get it. You only have to read a bit further before it starts feeling like she's demonstrating a grade school science fair experiment and not mercifully killing a living creature. 



> There have been a few cases where people have followed these instructions, and the rat goes unconscious, but does not die. In most of these cases, it seems that the baking soda was not as fresh as it needs to be. When the people bought a new box of baking soda and tried again, it worked.If this method fails for you, you can contact me so we can try to figure out what went wrong, if you want to try again.


Can you imagine! The vet turns to you and says "Huh. That didn't work. The pentobarbital must have not been fresh enough. Want me to try again with a new vial?"

???

Years ago I was linking this to people trying to tell them to read it and then think a little before following her advice like a blind sheep. It's sad to see we're still discussing it today.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

For those not in her group she has replied- 
http://i.imgur.com/ZvUaCR3.jpg


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

moonkissed said:


> For those not in her group she has replied-
> http://i.imgur.com/ZvUaCR3.jpg


Yep. Read it for yourself and decide how you feel about it. 

This is not the first, and will not be the last time that she is brought up or discussed in a rat group. I could probably dig up another 10 threads about her from RF alone that I've seen and/or participated in. It's the first time I've actually seen her reply, though! Unfortunate that it had to be done this way but I feel like if this were discussed anywhere else it would be, well, probably removed.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Also, I cleaned up a few posts that were unnecessary personal attacks. This forum is public - if someone wanted to link her to this thread, she could read it for herself in its entirety. 

Each of us as individuals, and the things we choose to say, represent RatForum as a whole. We're here to promote progressive thinking and the spread of knowledge, not slam someone hoping they don't see it.


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## ratluver372 (Jul 9, 2013)

I am about to read her reply. I skimmed and saw that she gets anesthetic from China, so that apparently is legal.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

ratluver372 said:


> I am about to read her reply. I skimmed and saw that she gets anesthetic from China, so that apparently is legal.


I don't even think it's a matter of legality any more. It's no secret that animal rights laws are nowhere near where they should be, especially for something as "lowly" as a rat. I wouldn't really expect them to hold up to what's happening here at all. I think it's a matter of ethics at this point - and ethics is partly down to individual opinion. 

Is what she doing right or wrong? We've seen it, and we get to decide - but we're going to argue one way or another, our arguments should be clear, concise, and accurate. No personal attacks, no smear campaigns, just facts. Yes, that means digging through her site, Facebook, checking state laws, or in my case, reading the entire freaking AVMA guidelines for humane euthanasia section on inhalants, but it needs to be done before any kind of meaningful argument can be made. Less word of mouth, more facts.  But that could go for a lot of what gets posted on the internet.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33713

if anyone agrees with her they are condoning horrible animal abuse...


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

The spays worry me even more than straight forward lumpectomies and castrations. When your entering a rats abdominal cavity its a lot more invasive, infection a lot more dangerous and expertise a lot more important. I wouldn't use a vet I was unfamiliar with (without a decent recommendation from someone I know well) to spay one of mine, whereas I will chance vets that I know are experienced with rats but don't know their level of skill as well personally for a castrate or straight forward lumpectomy (as opposed to something well attached and deeply rooted). To be fair I have that option, living where I do, I've got a very good vet nearby and whilst shes expensive she's also a bit amazing at it.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

KayRatz said:


> http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33713
> 
> if anyone agrees with her they are condoning horrible animal abuse...


Animal abuse as defined by what? Not the law - what she's doing is more than likely legal. It goes back to what I said before - it can be legal, but still morally wrong - but that's up for us to decide as individuals.

She debunked a few things that were posted there in her reply on Facebook, but I'm not entirely convinced that most of it isn't just backpedaling on things she has said in the past. I'm not invested enough to dig through Facebook for the full context at this point, especially given that important counter-arguments have been deleted. I have seen enough to make my decision (years ago lol).


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Isamurat said:


> The spays worry me even more than straight forward lumpectomies and castrations. When your entering a rats abdominal cavity its a lot more invasive, infection a lot more dangerous and expertise a lot more important. I wouldn't use a vet I was unfamiliar with (without a decent recommendation from someone I know well) to spay one of mine, whereas I will chance vets that I know are experienced with rats but don't know their level of skill as well personally for a castrate or straight forward lumpectomy (as opposed to something well attached and deeply rooted). To be fair I have that option, living where I do, I've got a very good vet nearby and whilst shes expensive she's also a bit amazing at it.


I agree. I have gotten to assist with spays on cats. The cats were ferals so sometimes they were quite small/young. And the vet was really good had tons of experience and even taught at the local college. She had been working with the feral program a while too and like every week we would be doing cats and sometimes had up to 10 females to spay! One time I think we had 13! That is alot of experience!

But it was not an easy simple procedure. Even on the cats it was risky & much more complicated she said working on the small ones. And I got to see first hand that it was indeed more difficult. I imagine on a small rat it would be even more difficult. Just watching her hands work and how delicate it was I knew I could never be a vet lol The neuters were quick and easy. 

I remember though how sterile and clean everything had to be. And I just don't see that in someone's home.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

This thread really does miss the huge elephant in the room. The need for free and/or low cost veterinary care for rats with owners that are financially unable to afford it.

Right, wrong; good, bad or ugly DD's filling a niche that should be filled by licensed veterinarians.

In the twisted perversion we call reality... there really may be a rat that's going to suffer and die, because Debbie isn't there to save it.... And there's something really wrong with that picture!

As to marginal or bad advise that she may have given... again I suspect that some people have benefited from it because better advise wasn't available... but I think we are all trying to do something about that on Rat Forum and on other rat sites... so good on all of us! But seriously, why aren't there more or perhaps any veterinarians on this or other forums giving medical advise to rat owners that need it? Every time one of our kind and generous and for the most part experienced members offers veterinary advise they are technically doing what a vet should be doing... right? 

Debbie has been around a long time, and I don't think she invented herself... she evolved in a world that for the most part doesn't care about the welfare of fancy rats... Maybe the world is changing, maybe we care more and that's why we're noticing her and she is starting to look out of step with the times. And maybe that's a good thing. But until someone addresses the real problems low income rat owners face, there are always going to be people out there filling the void either by giving on line advise or doing something a licensed professional should be doing.

Does anyone remember abortionists when abortion was illegal? The day the law changed, whether they did it to help women or to make a buck... they were effectively irrelevant and a historical footnote. It turned out that abortionists weren't the problem... they were just a bad solution.


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## RattieFosters (Aug 8, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> This thread really does miss the huge elephant in the room. The need for free and/or low cost veterinary care for rats with owners that are financially unable to afford it.
> 
> Right, wrong; good, bad or ugly DD's filling a niche that should be filled by licensed veterinarians.
> 
> In the twisted perversion we call reality... there really may be a rat that's going to suffer and die, because Debbie isn't there to save it.... And there's something really wrong with that picture!


Okay, I feel like there's something that needs to be said about this that kind of annoys me.

First of all, veterinarians have a lot less control over what they charge than you think. First off (at least in Canada), the amount you can charge is regulated by the CVMA (or the AVMA in US). A vet can't just decide to only charge $5 for a surgery or do them for free.

And second, running a veterinary practice is very VERY expensive. Paying for all of the medical supplies, machines, paying employees, and just keeping the building running eats up a lot of money.

Yes, veterinarians charge a lot of money. But guess what? That's part of having a pet. They charge that much because what they do is difficult and complicated and not everyone can do it. Like I said before, vet school takes as long as it does for a reason. You can't learn how to do surgery from peeking over someone's shoulder.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

RattieFosters said:


> Okay, I feel like there's something that needs to be said about this that kind of annoys me.
> 
> First of all, veterinarians have a lot less control over what they charge than you think. First off (at least in Canada), the amount you can charge is regulated by the CVMA (or the AVMA in US). A vet can't just decide to only charge $5 for a surgery or do them for free.
> 
> ...


Indeed, the CVMA's suggested cat/dog checkup rate for 2014 was $79.70. Which is, well, expensive.

I think responsibility falls more on the owners than the vets. While I don't think anyone low income should be barred from experiencing the joys of owning a pet, it is incredibly wrong to let an animal suffer because vet care is "too expensive", but that's the mentality for lots of people, especially when it comes to animals whom cost $10 and live for only 2 years. Debbie's advice caters to these people, unfortunately.


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

What may be the fact in Canada is not so in a lot of the US. Many states, counties, or cities can and do offer free spay and neutering of cats and dogs for people who aren't able to pay. There are even some busses that travel around offering this. It is the same with any business. The cost is tied into so many aspects and tangibles, it drives up the price. The best idea is to research the vets in your area. As I said, my vet offers a payment plan to ease the shock. As for the "too expensive" thing. Sometimes you are caught off guard as to the expense of an unforeseen treatment or operation. It's overwhelming sometimes. I don't think "low income" people are irresponsible pet owners. A lot of the stories I see of pet pain and suffering, the family is well equipped to deal with it, they just choose not to. There is a homeless man here in Topeka who begs at the corner with his dog. Is he to be punished because he took in a stray and gave it love? I bet you he'd give his life for that mutt.
As for Debbie, she has been in this field for 30 years. We don't know that she has a lab in her house. She stated that what she does is legal in California. For myself, I will use her wisdom from her books to help me with my rats as she has a degree in Animal Behavior. I'm not able to stand behind the whole "be your own vet" thing and I am no one from no where that can do nothing about it (except offer my humble 2 cents).
How about we get off each other's backs and go back to telling neat stories about cute furry butts?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Honestly, I'm not throwing stones at vets. They are more a part of the solution than the problem.... 

But I also can't fault the little girl who falls in love with a rat pup in a feeder bin and who's parents can't afford a dog and give her the chance at a furry friend even when they can't afford a $600.00 to $1000.00 lumpectomy when the rat grows older. Seriously, if asked, would any one of us tell that little girl that the rat pup she fell in love with needs to be fed to a snake because her parents don't have $1000.00 and may never have $1000.00 to spend on a pet? Is it even fair for the rat? 

As to Canada... which I thought was relatively civilized: What kind of sane rational legal system prevents qualified people from giving compassionate care to a helpless animal? And I thought reality was warped before I read that.

How many threads are here that ask: What medication should I give my sick rat? or Where can I find it on line? or What's the right dose of...? and how many very kind members of our group have helped these people? And yes.... they gave veterinary advise without a diploma or a degree and yes, they even helped people get around their local laws... And why? Because the system is screwed up. And people are trying to fill the gap and make things better. And deep down we all know this isn't right, but we are doing the best we can for now.

I don't have the answer... I wish I did. But at least I recognize the problem. DD exists because someone needs her and so does the health section of Rat Forum. And we might grade that from awful to better, but good would have a qualified vet on line answering medical questions and someplace for low income people to take their rats to when they get sick.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Verucasdad... aren't furbutts bunnies and taildraggers rats?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

And by the way... why can't a web site perhaps raise money through selling advertising and perhaps pay a vet to come on and answer rat health questions? I'm sure that there are qualified English speaking vets in third world countries that wouldn't be too expensive for a couple of hours a week if one in the US, UK or CA can't be found. A veterinary degree from a foreign country is likely still better than none at all. Just a thought...


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Verucasdad said:


> Many states, counties, or cities can and do offer free spay and neutering of cats and dogs for people who aren't able to pay.


Because there is incentive and funding available to do so. Uncontrolled breeding/feral populations of these animals causes catastrophic damage to local ecosystems. Apples to oranges in this case.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Rat Daddy said:


> And by the way... why can't a web site perhaps raise money through selling advertising and perhaps pay a vet to come on and answer rat health questions? I'm sure that there are qualified English speaking vets in third world countries that wouldn't be too expensive for a couple of hours a week if one in the US, UK or CA can't be found. A veterinary degree from a foreign country is likely still better than none at all. Just a thought...


There's only so much they'd be able to do without knowing case history, seeing the patient physically, etc. giving advice out that way could be dangerous, potentially. There is a reason we do not see vets regularly participating in any public forum and it is not always because of money. Vets that do Skype/web consultations still usually request a physical exam/labwork/etc. be done by another veterinarian. Debbie's not a vet so there's not nearly as many repercussions for her giving advice. Same for the rest of us, but I've yet to see anyone on here give advice with as much authority as she does.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed, an on line vet isn't the solution, but he or she might be better than what or who we have now.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Rat Daddy said:


> And by the way... why can't a web site perhaps raise money through selling advertising and perhaps pay a vet to come on and answer rat health questions? I'm sure that there are qualified English speaking vets in third world countries that wouldn't be too expensive for a couple of hours a week if one in the US, UK or CA can't be found. A veterinary degree from a foreign country is likely still better than none at all. Just a thought...


There are alot of online sources for advice from vets. reddit's askvet is actually like good advice. For rats there is http://ratguide.com which is a wealth of knowledge and legit. There is also a facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RealRatLoversWantToKnow/ they verify people and have experts & vets in the group giving out free advice. They have very strict rules on who can post answers, how u must ask and how people must answer to make sure u know who u r getting advice from even. It is an amazing group.

There is a limit though... let's be honest we live in a sue happy world. And alot of people do not want to open themselves up to a law suit by giving advice out without actually being able to see the animal themselves. Honestly just suggesting someone gives their pet meds is alittle bit iffy. 

We surely do need lower cost vet care. Some vets charge insane prices and while there may be laws on what they must charge, vet fees vary so wildly different sometimes. One vet can charge $60 while a vet down the road will charge $160. I value a vet's work and they should be getting paid and it does cost money. But sometimes it does get a bit absurd sometimes. When I lived in Texas the vets were quite expensive & one vet wanted $80 just to see my rat before she would PTS. I do not think that is really fair.

And we do have alot of low cost options for cats and dogs. But most of those are run by the community. And I think it would be harder for us to gather up a community effort for that with small animals. But I would love to see people try.

At the same time I have to admit I feel very strong that you shouldnt get a pet if you can not afford everything that comes with owning a pet...including vet care. I understand that sometimes things happen in our lives that can be unexpected but everyone should have a plan for vet care. And ideally find a good local vet before u need one and know their basic prices.

Vet care can be even more so important with rats who are quite prone to health related issues such as URI, Tumors or even aggression in boys who may need to be neutered. 

But instead of blaming vets really I want to blame mills, pet stores, ignorant people and BYBs. If we want healthier pets we need to stop having so many bad unhealthy rats out there. But the unhealthy rats flood the community because most pet owners don't give a care & buy from pet shops, buy from BYBs or worse have "accidental litters" or breed on purpose just because. It annoys me.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I met a little girl once when we were doing a meet and greet with Fuzzy Rat. She was shabbily dressed, and spoke poorly and we were in a low income neighborhood... mostly government housing. And she was pushy almost aggressive and she managed to drive back the other kids over time. I sort of let her manage Fuzzy Rat while I had to deal with my own daughter... She was very protective of Fuzzy Rat and was letting other kids pet her and even scolding them if they got too touchy... I was sort of surprised, but Fuzzy Rat pretty much took care of herself and I thought I could look away for a moment... maybe a few minutes... When I looked back I found the little girl curled up around Fuzzy Rat crying. It was heart breaking, she'd never held a small animal, much less had a dog or met a rat. I left the two of them alone for a few minutes as they snuggled together, and when I had to take my daughter and Fuzzy Rat home, the little girl said, through a veil of tears.... "I wish I was a rat."

Which one of you folks has the heart to tell this little girl that she can never have a rat of her own because her mom can't afford the potential vet costs? Or that rat in the feeder bin is better off being fed to a snake?

Fuzzy Rat did a lot of meet and greets with disadvantaged and handicapped kids, and she was always a huge hit... Mostly she made kids laugh and smile and feel good... the only other time I saw a child cry was during her farewell appearance when she was dying and it was the last time she would go outside at a public event. I almost cried too. Overall Fuzzy Rat did her part to bring joy into many children's lives, but she was no substitute for a pet of their own.

Intellectually, I get that people shouldn't own pets that they can't afford, maybe they shouldn't have kids they can't afford either... But seriously... telling your kids that you can't afford a rat seems emotionally harsh and doesn't strike me as making the world a better place for anyone. It may be the right thing to do, but I don't think it is a good thing to do either.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

> But seriously... telling your kids that you can't afford a rat seems emotionally harsh and doesn't strike me as making the world a better place for anyone. It may be the right thing to do, but I don't think it is a good thing to do either.





> Which one of you folks has the heart to tell this little girl that she can never have a rat of her own because her mom can't afford the potential vet costs? Or that rat in the feeder bin is better off being fed to a snake?


umm any responsible parent I would hope lol

When i was a little girl I wanted a horse more than anything in the world. I think it was very smart of my parents to tell me no because there was no way we could afford to keep a horse and it would be unfair to keep it in my backyard. lol

Vet care is part of the cost of having the pet. Would u be ok having a parent tell the kid no if they couldn't afford to feed the pet? An animal starving to death is very sad, an animal suffering in pain and dying from something treatable at the vet is equally sad to me. A pet should not just be a thing someone has to have. It is not a necessity. 

If my child loved pets and really wanted one and I couldn't afford one, I would take them to volunteer at a local shelter or other animal place. let them learn and play with pets and actually doing a good thing in the world. 

Plus I would expect the parent to make it a teachable moment on how pets are a huge responsibility and you can't always have something just because you want it. Super awesome life lesson right there.


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

Rat Daddy said:


> Verucasdad... aren't furbutts bunnies and taildraggers rats?


Remember. I'm still a newbie. I like fur butts and I cannot lie...


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## Verucasdad (Aug 31, 2015)

Jaguar said:


> Because there is incentive and funding available to do so. Uncontrolled breeding/feral populations of these animals causes catastrophic damage to local ecosystems. Apples to oranges in this case.


 I understand that. I was using tis as an example ta pricing ad freebies aren't as regulated as in Canada.


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

moonkissed said:


> If my child loved pets and really wanted one and I couldn't afford one, I would take them to volunteer at a local shelter or other animal place. let them learn and play with pets and actually doing a good thing in the world.


I did that for a while before I got rats and it was like here you go you can clean the pets cages and play with them but you can't take them home and you won't see them again when they are adopted. For me, not being a small kid it was happy when animals got adopted but for a child of lets say 10 it is heart breaking. Not everyone should have pets I agree. When you can't afford it, wait until you are financially stable. But if it were me, I wouldn't want to tell a child you can't have something that will be your best friend.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

JAnimal said:


> I did that for a while before I got rats and it was like here you go you can clean the pets cages and play with them but you can't take them home and you won't see them again when they are adopted. For me, not being a small kid it was happy when animals got adopted but for a child of lets say 10 it is heart breaking. Not everyone should have pets I agree. When you can't afford it, wait until you are financially stable. But if it were me, I wouldn't want to tell a child you can't have something that will be your best friend.


When I volunteered at a shelter alot of parents would volunteer with their kids. I do not think u r giving kids enough credit. A child should be far smart enough to understand that & be ok with it. 

For example my nephew super loves animals. I swear he has to grow up to be involved with pets someday because he is just so naturally obsessed with them. He has a pet turtle that is it. His parents are smart and are currently living in an apartment while they remodel their house & do not have alot of space nor time for pets. So they told him no pets until they get their house finished (which may take the rest of their life lol)

he gets to come to my house and play with all of my pets. He talks about how someday he will have tons of pets & swears he is going to steal all of my baby rats lol. he talks about cages he is going to build and cool play areas he will create for them. he super wants pet rats. But as young as he is, he completely understands how he can't right now but that someday he can. he even understands the why. 

When my one niece was just 4 she understood the concept even. She adored my rats but no way her parents would ever allow her to have them or any pet besides their one dog. She wants to be a vet when she grows up and would tell me how she would have rats and cats and lots of dogs when she grew up. But that right now she couldn't.

Perhaps I am just around alot of very mature, smart, non spoiled children idk lol


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

i got to have whatever pets i wanted except a dog or ferret lol. i had rats, a guinea pig, gerbils, egyptian spiny mice, cats, fish, hermit crabs, a leopard gecko, a rabbit, all at different times.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Misty and Cloud have never seen a vet... knock on wood and they have never been sick. They rarely eat any of their rat food, and live on leftovers and trash... literally they dumpster dive the kitchen trash for moldy stuff they seem to really like... They've built secret nests around the house out of plastic bags, paper towels and toilet paper and wouldn't miss their cage in the least and I don't think they've cost me anything since I adopted them other than a few wires I've had to solder and a few things they broke around the house. 

We got Misty and Cloud from a breeder who claims his rats don't get sick... and after having Cloud for almost two years I'm really starting to believe him.

So far, at least these two girls have been perfect low budget, or rather no budget pets. Perfect for a low income family. 

Fuzzy Rat had two vet visits, pretty much for the vets to tell us there wasn't really anything that could be done about her mammary tumors. Max had the same kind of multiple tumors and we didn't need a vet to tell us she wasn't operable... Amelia might have been helped by surgery... but she suddenly went into congestive heart failure before we got to that point. So no, we've never had to spend big bucks on a rat.

I did get some experimental tumor meds for Max before she died, but they were donated by a friend with a research lab and she went down the very day the meds arrived, they just took too long to get.

I really do believe that rats make perfect pets for people that can't afford other other big animals. 

And that takes us to the vet care that some rats need... and deserve. 30 years ago, I think pretty much anyone would have laughed at someone that would take a rat to a vet. Now, there are a lot of us that might think that a rat deserves a $1000.00 surgery. And I think that is progress. But we can't progress ourselves right out of our biggest niche. Most people buy rats because they are cheap and great entry level pets and then they get hooked for life.

Some years ago, I was a construction banker financing the rehabilitation of Jersey City. As I was going to inspect a property under rehabilitation a fellow came up to me and said how happy he was to see his neighborhood improving... I didn't have the heart to tell the poor old sot that this wasn't his neighborhood anymore... He may not have realized it, but he was already on his way out. We were building a nice neighborhood for someone other than him... No one was going to renovate his dumpy apartment, we were going to rehabilitate it into a condominium for someone else that could afford it.

Setting the financial bar too high for new rat owners is going to take out our biggest source of new members. And we're not doing any favors for all of those rats that need a good home.

The problem is low cost veterinary care, not people that can't afford to own small animals wanting them. I don't blame the vets, and I don't blame the people that need companion animals. I think if more underprivileged kids had companion animals they would grow up to be better, more responsible adults. They would learn compassion and caring for someone other than themselves. There's a real social benefit to owning pets. It's made us who we are.

DD's been out there for a long time.. by today's standards maybe even way out there... giving people who can't afford proper health care for their rats marginal options... I suppose eliminating low income rat owners would also eliminate her niche in the fancy... but that would also most likely take out more than half our membership and prevent more people from joining the fancy. 

I get that vets can't work for free, they deserve to get paid. But we have got to come up with better options than do it yourself rat surgery... without trashing the largest segment of our fancy.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

i dont think low income rat owners should be "wliminated" and i dont think anyone said that... i do what i can for my rats but if it comes to thousands of dollars i can't do that and i think that is okay. sometimes the best thing is to make them comfortable.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose, we are all doing the best we can do in an imperfect world. There's a lot that needs fixing, especially when it comes to vet care options for rats.. but we have to be careful we don't screw things up worse for ourselves....


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, we're getting a bit off topic ... not that I really mind... but I don't want to leave this thread open any longer than it needs to be (which is as long as people wish to discuss it)

If/when we're done I'll close it


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## RattieFosters (Aug 8, 2015)

Look. Owning pets takes money. Deal with it. Seriously. How selfish does a person have to be to buy an animal, force it to live with you, and then deny it basic medical care? And then excuse it as 'well just because I can't properly care for it, doesn't mean I shouldn't have it!' These animals are living breathing creatures that feel pain and sickness. Saying that people like Debbie are 'necessary' because some people can't afford vet care is ridiculous. If you can't afford vet care, don't get a pet. Wait until you have the money to afford one. I am so sick of this excuse.

Debbie has a Bachelor of Arts degree in Animal Behavior and is doing surgery on rats, which are very small animals. That would be like if someone had a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and started doing surgery on babies. Sounds crazy right? Because it is. I took two acting classes in university, but I am under no impression that I am now Angelina Jolie, or that I am qualified to teach others acting. Saying that Debbie took some nutrition courses so she's an expert now is just as silly.

I'm not saying that we should discount every piece of information on rat care she has ever published, but people need to stop hailing her as some all-knowing rat genius.


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## KayRatz (Apr 5, 2007)

i agree with rattiefosters 100%


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

RattieFosters... you are right on target. I recall when I was a kid in a rural area and if the family dog got sick the neighbor would put it down for you... No one even thought of taking a dog to a vet... Things have changed for the better, many if not most people would and do take their rats to vets now, which is a great thing and to be strongly encouraged. But with all of the people that need companion animals and all of the helpless rats in desperate need of loving forever homes... I'm not ready to back a means test for rat ownership... at least not yet.

I think more people need more affordable veterinary options, more than we need fewer low income rat owners. And I'm sticking with my point that this may be a very twisted world that I say this about. In a perfect world, vets might be paid a lot more for caring for small animals and we would all have the money to afford it.

And by the way... I have no problem dropping a couple hundred dollars on a rat treatment.


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