# Help figuring this little dude out?



## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

As of a few days ago, I am a first time rat owner. A friend of a friend was planning on setting his pet rat "free" outside, after weeks of trying to find him a home. Word got to me and I took him in. Apparently he has been kept in a garage for weeks because the wife of the owner didn't want him in the house. Not only that, but she made the owner return the "expensive" cage so the rat lived in a storage container... in that garage. That broke my heart so I HAD to take him. I named him Lestat. I know nothing of his previous treatment, his diet, or his age, but he appears to be young and pleasantly plump. So probably socially/emotionally neglected, but not starved. Anyway, he's been at my home for a few days and he doesn't seem terribly skittish. Shy, maybe, but only when I try to touch him. He's in good spirits, seemingly, except for one thing... he's started to bite. He's only smelled/nibbled me until today, when I tried to pet him. He doesn't seem to be doing it out of fear or aggression, like... he just kind of sits there and looks at me like I'm an idiot. Doesn't run away when I say "ouch!", he just kinda tilts his head like "...so?" I just recently found out about immersion training, so would my best option be to close off a play area and play with him? What does biting normally mean? Up until today his nibbles were harmless, but today he drew blood. I'm not scared of him (believe me I've been through worse) and I don't feel nervous, just kinda confused. Does he not know how hard he's biting?


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Also, please excuse the cage, this one was donated to me since this was a last minute rescue mission. I'll be ordering a bigger one the second I get paid. And also I was suggested to wait for the bigger cage before I get him a companion.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

First thank you for helping Lestat Instead of saying ouch, eep- that is say EEE in a high pitch voice. That is the sound rats do when they are annoyed or in pain. He should understand pretty quickly. Maybe use gloves first (although some rats bite gloves when otherwise they wouldn't), the anti-cut kitchen gloves work great here.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Thank you! I didn't think of an "eep" vs. an "ouch"!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Keep us updated. It can take a few days though or more. Do not pull back your hand if you get bitten (obviously if draw blood, we will have to think of another method) as it will teach Lestat that biting take the scary hand away good luck.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

That's a really good point. Thank you so much, and I will! I've been lurking this forum constantly and am watching as many YouTube videos I can get my hands on. No doubt I'm going to be asking a lot of questions for the next few days.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm not down playing you getting bit at all.........but is that all the blood? When I got bit, on my finger, blood was all over the floor! Seriously! There was a trail of blood from the spot I picked up my rat to the door of the cage.

I got bit one time by a current rat. After one intense immersion session, and then ongoing immersion/trust training she is a great rat now. She only ever bit me the one time. If immersion feels right to you, then I'd definitely go that way. After a couple of hours, she fell asleep in my hands and ended up hanging out in my shirt for the rest of the night. 

That same rat will give me kisses, play with me and cuddle now. 

Can you think of anything that was different when you got bit? Even something minor or seemingly insignificant to you or me could be a big deal for a rat.

Also, rats do seem to take offense to gloves for some reason. I used to put on gloves to pick up raisisns when I was litter box training. All t he rats seemed to be offended and the blind one even went to bite. I don't know if it's the smell or what, but she only got freaked when I was wearing gloves that she can't even see.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

There are typically two types of biting. Sometimes biting is caused by fear. In this case the rat usually runs to the furthest distance from you that it can reach and turns to defend itself. During immersion, you pretty much want to coax this rat towards you using patience, soft tones and treats.


The other option is aggressive behavior. Perhaps, control behavior may be more appropriate. This occurs when a rat tries to take charge of the situation by nipping or biting you. This does not mean that the rat is nominally aggressive or vicious just that it has decided to try to take control of the situation in a very maladaptive manner. If left alone, or worse yet encouraged, nipping can turn to biting and pushy can turn into outright aggression.


I'm a 6'2" guy and I don't eep. I firmly say "No!" Or "No Biting!" And if necessary tenderly bop the little deviant with love in my heart. Rats are small animals and I don't suggest that they should be hit. A little bop should be mildly unpleasant and perhaps a little bit surprising but certainly not painful to your rat.


I like the idea of oven mitts or welding gloves because it allows you to work more confidently with your rat. If you are afraid of getting bitten or reluctant to engage, you're going to have more difficulty in opening up communications with him. For the most part, it usually doesn't take very long to be able to remove the gloves and get hands-on. But seriously, there's no benefit to not wearing gloves. A decent pair of gloves or oven mitts only cost a few dollars as compared to a few stitches. And who knows, you might even take a baking or welding if you have the gloves laying around.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

I disagree with punitive based training methods in general. I train dogs, cats, and rats, and specialize in pets with behavior issues (I turned an aggressive pit bull into a service dog for a disabled vet - still one of my proudest accomplishments). Animal behavior is my field of study. While I am young and still have a lot to learn, I do have several years of experience working with a variety of aggression types in a variety of species and I have never had to use punitive methods to get great results. 

Not trying to attack you, Rat Daddy, I know you would never do anything to hurt your babies and that you practice your philosophy with love - and it has obviously worked for you since you still use it. I just want to express a difference in philosophy. ^_^

The eeping method has worked for me as well, though not all eeps are created equal. Some voices just aren't designed for eeping! And that's totally okay. 

Most of my rats are super offended by gloves. I avoid them when I can, but if your rat is drawing blood and you want to eliminate that risk, then gloves are definitely a useful tool! There's no reason you can't do trust training/immersion with gloves on!

I usually use a combination of trust training and immersion, tailored to the individual rat. Trick training can also be a fantastic bonding experience! But I usually don't start that until they're comfortable enough to climb on my hand. If he's comfortable enough to take food from your hand, you can start teaching him to "come" to your hand. Then your hand will be something to touch, not something to bite. Touch training has been super effective for me in working with poorly socialized rats.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> ...Do not pull back your hand if you get bitten (obviously if draw blood, we will have to think of another method)...


Haha - unless you're like me and you get a little pissy. Mine learned very quickly that biting me doesn't even get me out of their immediate area.



catty-ratty said:


> ...but is that all the blood? When I got bit, on my finger, blood was all over the floor! Seriously! There was a trail of blood from the spot I picked up my rat to the door of the cage...


That's precisely what I was thinking - fingers are extremely vascular. One tiny but deep cut spews blood like Old Faithful. I took photos of most of the bites the girls gave me, and at least two or three look like a murder scene. Had to pack a few with flour. (Hint: If you're working with biters, invest in a packet or two of styptic powder and a good first aid kit.)



SaberKatt said:


> I disagree with punitive based training methods in general. I train dogs, cats, and rats, and specialize in pets with behavior issues (I turned an aggressive pit bull into a service dog for a disabled vet - still one of my proudest accomplishments). Animal behavior is my field of study. While I am young and still have a lot to learn, I do have several years of experience working with a variety of aggression types in a variety of species and I have never had to use punitive methods to get great results...
> 
> The eeping method has worked for me as well, though not all eeps are created equal. Some voices just aren't designed for eeping! And that's totally okay.


RD and I have discussed the different sides of the training methods at length, so I hope he knows this isn't a personal attack. I have to agree with you, Saber, I'm not a fan of the negative training. It (punishment/"discipline") hasn't worked for any of my six biters, and in fact, has sometimes worsened their behaviors.

At the same time, I, a person who didn't cry over a broken ankle, can't "eep" without laughing my arse off. And that's also never done me any favors, so I pouch train mine instead. Gets them accustomed to me and handling without forcing them out of the cage.

He might tone down once he gets a friend to be with, but please be careful with your fingers. I hate gloves passionately, and I've been bitten through (leather) gloves, but it's still better than a snapped tendon. (Which I've gotten painfully close to.)


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

catty-ratty said:


> I'm not down playing you getting bit at all.........but is that all the blood? When I got bit, on my finger, blood was all over the floor! Seriously! There was a trail of blood from the spot I picked up my rat to the door of the cage.I got bit one time by a current rat. After one intense immersion session, and then ongoing immersion/trust training she is a great rat now. She only ever bit me the one time. If immersion feels right to you, then I'd definitely go that way. After a couple of hours, she fell asleep in my hands and ended up hanging out in my shirt for the rest of the night. That same rat will give me kisses, play with me and cuddle now. Can you think of anything that was different when you got bit? Even something minor or seemingly insignificant to you or me could be a big deal for a rat.


 Haha, yeah, that's all the blood. There's only two small indentions where the skin had dried at the bite area, no scabbing at all. But yeah, it's hard for me to remember now, but I will definitely keep better notice later on today when I try again. This experience kind of inspired me and I ended up building a playpen area out of those school project boards last night.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> At the same time, I, a person who didn't cry over a broken ankle, can't "eep" without laughing my arse off. And that's also never done me any favors, so I pouch train mine instead. Gets them accustomed to me and handling without forcing them out of the cage.He might tone down once he gets a friend to be with, but please be careful with your fingers. I hate gloves passionately, and I've been bitten through (leather) gloves, but it's still better than a snapped tendon. (Which I've gotten painfully close to.)


 I haven't heard of pouch training yet, I'll look into it right now!


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Alright, so... checklist. - "Eep!" > "Ouch!" - Try not to pull my hand back, it only enforces unwanted behavior. - Coax forward using treats, soft voice, and patience. - If rat becomes too aggressive, a "boop" might help.- If rat is too sensitive, perhaps try pouch training instead. - Push comes to shove, gloves are better than shredded fingers and snapped tendons. - Probably a good idea to invest in styptic powder and a good first aid kit.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Also, how are y'all doing a line break in your text? The [br] isn't working for me and I feel so sloppy.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats will play fight and mock bite you, sometimes it may leave little marks... no big deal and I usually don't even discourage it unless it hurts.

Our part wild rat would bite, roll thereby tearing out a chunk of flesh then strike again. She could turn someone's hand into a hamburger meat blood fountain in a split second. She also loved to play fight and mock bite... Actually she was usually a very friendly and well behaved rat. Just to be perfectly clear, with her, like most rats, they have incredible control of their teeth... One look down at the carpet and you knew instantly if she was playing or upset... if you were standing in a pool of blood spouting red... you just might have upset her... otherwise she was just having a little fun and wanted to be flipped over and tossed around. Either way her play attacks looked a lot like her serious ones, she would even fluff up her hair during play fighting... still she never got it wrong... play was painless and bloodless, angry meant bandages or stitches.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Needless to say Im considering socks on my hands now because I'm still too **** stubborn for the oven mitts. I tried to pay attention to what triggers the biting but I can't pin it. Ive been in the playpen for an hour now, and honestly I'm refusing to get out until there's some progress. Lets start at the beginning though. Lestat is not afraid to sniff my hands or for me to touch his nose inside the cage, I've done it several times with no biting. But the problems start when I try to take him out of the cage. It's awkwardly shaped and I have a hard time fitting two hands between the poorly planned levels. The reason why I think he's from a pet store is because maybe he's used to being transported roughly? But anyway, I can't understand how one is properly supposed to take him out of such a contraption, I tried putting one hand under him but he always ran away. I didn't realize how slippery they are! He almost managed to escape by running up my arm which gave me the idea to put the cage in the playpen just until I got him out. Just like I predicted, he used my arm trying to pick him up as a bridge and leapt out into the playpen. I quickly removed the cage and sat down with him. Sat for thirty minutes with yogurt, hard boiled egg yolk, and broccoli in my hand (not at the same time, I traded them out every ten minutes) but Lestat is ABSOLUTELY UNMOTIVATED by food. He couldn't give a rats... haha. But after that didn't work, that's when I tried to engage him. He smelled my fingers, cool, then CHOMP. Bite one. Said "eep!" (I was kinda expecting this) but again, he didn't run from me, he just watched me. I tried petting him to show him I wasn't scared of his bites but he just scurried until I let up, I gave him a minute, tried to pet him again. He smelled and CHOMP bit again. Alright, no more stop 'n sniffs then. I tried petting him for several minutes as he scurried and sometimes just begrudgingly accepted the pets. I made the mistake of getting too comfortable, tried to pet him one last time, then CHOMP, third time. I sat back, annoyed, but then he came up to me and laid down next to my leg? Then he tried to fall asleep. My frustratingly cute jerk fat rat friend. His eyes are closed and he seems to be making grinding noises with his teeth? And now I'm posting this. Haaaaalp from the other side?


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I'm really apprehensive about "bopping" him since the bites aren't deep, but dang!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Ouch on the fingers, lol, sorry not funny. But it looks like there is progress. The teeth sound is bruxing which is a good sign, rats brux to wear down their teeth but also when happy and/or relaxed.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

One thing I've done with success in your situation is just...leaving the cage door open. I'll have some treats prepared and sit down by the cage with a book and completely ignore the rat. Let them explore things on their own, at their own comfort level. It usually doesn't take long before they start feeling curious. Obviously I do this in a rat proof area. I reward when they start investigating the cage door. Then I reward when they leave the cage. Then I reward every time they offer me attention or if they touch me. I offer food rewards in a small cup or spoon, or will offer it to them flat on my palm (sometimes holding food between your fingers can lead to bites by mistake, or rats who can get mouthy because they associate your fingertips with noms). I also talk to them in my calm happy voice, and if things are going well I will start teaching them their name and to come when called. Training can do a LOT to boost a rat's confidence and trust in you. Sometimes you just need to work at their level - especially if they're socially awkward.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Next time don't feed him within 4 hours of letting him out, he will want the food more than he is scared of you- although as I said above there is good progress Continue to eep, it really works for most people. You didn't say how long he has been living alone before you got him, so there is a possibility that he forgot to "speak rat" Aka the meaning of eeping. That being said, he wasn't supposed to run away when you eeped, but to look at you and nip more softly next time so might still be wirking here.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I will try both of these techniques tommorrow and will post results. I think I'm going to take a break here for a minute though. I took the socks off my feet and used them on my hands... A few minutes later I thought he was just curiously smelling my feet but nope. I never claimed to be smart, just enthusiastic.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

The bites are never really deep though, just messy. I'm no stranger to pain, but admittedly this is tiring.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Yikes! Good luck! I'm looking forward to your updates.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Thank you! This has really only inspired me to do better, like... I love the little meanie. Not gonna give up on him, I've heard of way worse cases with success. And the fact that he comes to be next to me is just as confusing as it is hopeful. Thank you guys so much! Really!


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm not trying to convince you to use negative reinforcement (a meaningful bob on the head), just giving my own example and experiences with it. 

I think first of all, it depends on the situation. I would never ever use negative reinforcement with an abused animal. But if it's a pet that hasn't been abused, using unacceptable behavior to get their way, I will do something unpleasant, but NOT harmful to get my point across. That could be my tone of voice, a sudden loud sound or a light bop, not meant to hurt and not on the head. 

My point is to communicate that unpleasant behavior get them unpleasant results. Pleasant behavior get pleasant results. 

With my abused, neglected and terrified rat that bit me, I would never use negative reinforcement with her. I would have lost her forever if I did. She bit me out of fear. I'm sure she would interpret the kindest behavioral correction as more abuse.

On the other hand, I have a cat that no one could even get close to without getting bitten and scratched. I know her history. She was never abused, but she wasn't socialized properly. The first time she tried to bite me, I shoved my finger down her throat. She's never tried to bite me again. She is a sweet, loving cat now. Sometimes she will start to get a little aggressive. All I have to do to stop it immediately is point my finger. 

Please realize that I'm not suggesting you do this with your rat. I'm only implying that giving him an unpleasant result to associate with biting might not be hurtful. And giving pleasant results to other behavior might help him understand you better. There would be a clear difference between behavior that gets pleasant results as opposed to behavior that gets unpleasant results.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

The only thing about positive punishment (the act of introducing a negative stimulus to prevent unwanted behavior) that worries me in this situation is that he's so new - I wouldn't want him to feel as though You are a Bringer of Unpleasant Things - especially when trying to build trust. Plus, what kind of example does that set for a socially awkward rat? You're allowed to do unpleasant things to communicate, but he's not? PP does work for some rats, but there is always that risk of the rat deciding that it's your fault as opposed to the fault of his own behavior. Just something to keep in mind if you do go that route. ^_^


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

It's really interesting that rats are waaaaaay more complex than what people without experiences with rats give them credit for. I /kind/ of feel like I'm getting used to his personality? Like, he's definitely not aggressive, but he doesn't act the way the rats I read up on do. I think him being in that garage so long might have messed him up too. If not the isolation but maybe the fumes too. But I feel a connection, I have the cage next to my bed and his favorite hide is closest to me. I just need to get that bigger cage asap and a socialized companion, from what I've read that might make the difference I need. Going to try to make a bonding pouch tomorrow, until then...


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SaberKatt said:


> The only thing about positive punishment (the act of introducing a negative stimulus to prevent unwanted behavior) that worries me in this situation is that he's so new - I wouldn't want him to feel as though You are a Bringer of Unpleasant Things - especially when trying to build trust. Plus, what kind of example does that set for a socially awkward rat? You're allowed to do unpleasant things to communicate, but he's not? PP does work for some rats, but there is always that risk of the rat deciding that it's your fault as opposed to the fault of his own behavior. Just something to keep in mind if you do go that route. ^_^


Hmm......I think you are right.

Tess, my abused rat, was with me for a few weeks before immersion and trust training. So I knew her a little better. And with the cat, I knew her background. But with her, the biting had to stop immediately! Cat bites can actually be poisonous. I found out the hard way!

Something I just thought of.........

If Lestat was kept all alone in a garage without social stimulation, interaction with people might have become scary. On the rare occasion someone did try to interact with him, he may have figured out that biting them would make them go away. 

Maybe just not going away might be more helpful than anything?


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

SwampWitch666 said:


> I have the cage next to my bed and his favorite hide is closest to me.


That's exactly what I did! Getting up in the morning meant moving the cage to the other end of the house to my studio. Going to bed, meant moving it back to the bedroom. Tess was literally with me 24/7. 

I personally think that helped get her. I also put one of my unwashed shirts in her favorite hammock.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

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OMG! Just saw this.

The things we do for our animals! The innocent look on his face is priceless!


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Yeah, I'm still just sitting here in the playpen not bothering him. We're just kind of looking at each other like "you done?" "yeah bro im done". About to attempt to put him back in his cage, which I know will be a struggle. I think we're both exhausted and ready to just watch Netflix for the night. Even though he's not as comfortable with me as I hoped, I think we made progress.


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

With Tess, the initial breakthrough was the first immersion session. It was the 'ice breaker' so to speak. I followed it with a lot of trust/immersion training. 

One thing I've noticed with all of my rats is the way they play. At first, it looks they are running away because they are scared. But the come right back. When we play, sometimes I snatch them up to kiss their bellies and tickle them. They squirm out of my hands, run off, then come back for more. I've caught them peeking around the corner at me, waiting for my attention. When they see me see them, they run out. 

They are funny little guys!

Engaging Tess in playing that way helped a lot. I didn't and still won't snatch her up to kiss her belly or tickle her. I get the feeling it would be scary for her.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

A socialized companion worked wonders for my rescues! Narset was the most aggressive rat I'd ever had, personally. I did teach her to stop biting through a combination of immersion and trust training, but she still wasn't super stoked about my existence. Then I introduced Saber and both rescues did a complete 180. Now they greet me at the cage door and have no problems touching and interacting with me. It doesn't work for all rats, but sometimes a confident role model is just the right thing! ^_^


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm going through intros right now with a new rat and her pup and first there was lots of blood and biting, but the girls worked through it and now there's only lots of squealing and brawling... but the biting and bleeding is over....

My point? Rats aren't delicate flowers... during intros they knock or even rip the stuffing out of each other and then they become best friends once they have ironed all of the kinks out of their relationship...

You don't need to overthink this... your rat wants to be your friend, but he's pushing you around. Likely he pushed his last owner around too. He's not fear biting you he's communicating with you and he's telling you what he wants in no uncertain terms.. he wants to be in charge.. and if you are really nice you will get a snuggle... if not, watch out.

You really need to fix this now. First fix the biting and then work on your relationship. Chomp= NO biting!!! or NO Biting!!!+Bop. 

Yes, you want open and honest communication between you and your rat, but biting is always off limits.

Your body is full of arteries and you have parts like eyes that can be put out... and there may be other people or pets in your home that can be hurt... A biting rat is not a pet, it's a liability. You can't have a good relationship with a rat that bites. You have to fix the biting first and then you can start to build your relationship.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Alright... I'll let y'all know what happens today.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

*deep breath, grabs several pairs of socks* 

LETS DO THIS.


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## amadeo395 (Feb 12, 2016)

I agree with Rat Daddy. I have 6 rat boys and every now and then they will nip, not a blood bite but I won't allow them to get that far since my son also handles them. A nip is immediately followed by a very loud NO BITE! and possibly a bop or push away. Then I will not engage that rat but they look for our attention so pushing them away is a punishment for them. That may not work for you. But definitely a loud sound, eep or No Bite is in order. I was luck enough to find a breeder who handles her rats from birth so they are already socialized before I get them, but even with that socialization nips still happen and have to be stopped.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

I've never had a rat bite me more than once after I started training with them, with the exception of Narset (but she didn't get the chance to make me bleed once I was aware of her aggressive tendencies).
Even Narset stopped biting after a week. 
I've never been bit by the aggressive animals that went through my training programs either. Once you understand an animal's behavior, it is only a matter of respect and reshaping. 

I agree that biting is something you definitely want to deal with right away, but I disagree that positive punishment is the correct method here. It can do more damage to an already socially awkward rat. I agree that you need to be a strong leader, but I also believe you should lead by example. Other rats may use physical force and intimidation to tame other rats, but you are not a rat and he knows you are not a rat. 

Not engaging a rat that is interested in social activity is, on the other hand, negative punishment and can work brilliantly combined with positive reinforcement. It eliminates the fear/intimidation aspect by turning things into a puzzle, as the rat has to figure out how to make this new life work. How do I get the attention back? How do I get the yogurt on the spoon? Oh! I have to be nice! Negative punishment (withholding something good to eradicated unwanted behavior) utilizes critical thinking skills and does not cloud his mind with negative emotions, which can alter and undermine the learning process. 

Intimidation and force are the last things I would use on a socially awkward aggressive rat. And in all my years working with (and specializing in) pets that have behavior issues, I have never once had to resort to intimidating an animal into healing and learning. 

Whatever method you decide to use. I wish you luck! I'll be awaiting your update!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would NEVER use force or punishment on ANY pet, especially not a rat. A rat is a prey animal and any bop or punishment would make your rat even more fearful of you. A fearful rat is more likely to bite, reinforcing the negative behavior. Positive reinforcement is the best method in my opinion.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Trying the "let him come out of the cage on his own for food" method. Alright, I took his food away at 8am. At noon I put his cage in the playpen, door open, treats awaiting him when he tried to venture out. Five hours later, he really hasn't had any interest. I figured maybe since the cage open from the top he's confused as to what I'm wanting him to do. So I carefully took out his flooring and toys, then... well, slowly and carefully put the cage on its side, so that he can just walk out. It's been 15 minutes and he's just now peering out.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Oh, there you go! Some of my shyer rescues took a few sessions before they came out. They took their times getting used to a human presence. Taking away food and bedding and things can be super motivating though, haha.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Try to lure him out with yummy treat on a spoon. Let him have some NOW as peering out is good. After a while only if he makes one extra step out of the cage and so on. Good call on putting the cage on its side if that was the only way to get a wide enough opening.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Peering out is good, reward him!!!


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> Try to lure him out with yummy treat on a spoon. Let him have some NOW as peering out is good. After a while only if he makes one extra step out of the cage and so on. Good call on putting the cage on its side if that was the only way to get a wide enough opening.


Yes, that! ^


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I offered him the spoon and just stared at me for, like, two minutes and just started cleaning himself. Still not hungry I guess.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Should... I let him? Should I try to engage or just leave him to find me when he wakes up?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Let him sleep for now. He will be hungry when he wakes up in a few hours. Maybe try another treat like turkey brown rice or chicken sweet potato baby food- never heard of a rat not LOVING those. Even better if heated a few secs in the microwave- it smelks even better to rats.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

I would let him at this stage. That's why I usually read a book when I first start this type of training - to let them figure things out in their own time. He'll get hungry and/or curious eventually. As long as he's still getting the nutrients/calories he needs, there's no reason you can't be the Almighty Supplier of Everything Good Ever. Trying different foods/treats can help too. 

My first day with this kind of training usually involves me observing them, more than anything, to try to figure out their personality, habits, and any sort of information that could help me cater a training program specific to their needs.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Thank you guys so much. I soooo appreciate it. :'D


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I COULD CRY. This is the first time he's ever taken food from me.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Aww here you go. His appetite took over, suddently you're not that scary, lol. Now that he did it once, he will do it again. Small steps are always good for that reason.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Congrats!


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Good job Lestat. :')


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Yay! First achievement unlocked! It only get easier from there. ^_^


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

After SaberKatt mentioned bringing a book, I remembered that with Tess, I brought along Sudoku puzzles and just pretty much ignored her until she came to check me out first.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Patience is a virtue... one I tend to exercise more with shy or withdrawn rats... for the most part I tend to be engaging... Generally after a certain amount of time if you aren't interacting you aren't doing anything either... 

It is a judgment call... and a matter of your personality and that of your rat... and your patience... With normal friendly rats I like to keep things moving along... with pushy rats I tend to be pushy back but with shy rats I move along slower... but I still try to keep things moving along in the right direction... But every one will do this a little bit differently.... just don't let things drag out forever for no reason.


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## SaberKatt (Mar 14, 2016)

Rat Daddy makes a good point. If you feel you are not making progress, it's time to reassess! 

You did make some progress today, though, so I think the patience plan is going to be good for him. ^_^


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

I don't even know what to say. I spent hours in the playpen with Lestat today, him not really wanting much to do with me as usual. I got out to get a drink, so my boyfriend just waltzes in there, sits down for a minute... Lestat comes over and let's my bf straight up PET him. As if they've been buddies for ages. I wonder now if the previous owner's wife (the one that didn't allow Lestst in their house and forced him to be in a storage bin in the garage) was cruel to him?! Would I represent that as a female?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

SwampWitch666 said:


> I don't even know what to say. I spent hours in the playpen with Lestat today, him not really wanting much to do with me as usual. I got out to get a drink, so my boyfriend just waltzes in there, sits down for a minute... Lestat comes over and let's my bf straight up PET him. As if they've been buddies for ages. I wonder now if the previous owner's wife (the one that didn't allow Lestst in their house and forced him to be in a storage bin in the garage) was cruel to him?! Would I represent that as a female?


Oh dear, yes Lestat might have been abused by that woman hence him being scared of you. Rats are super smart, and it is said that they are as smart as the average dog...and fear in dogs has been shown to relate to the gender of a person when a dog has been abused only by a man or a wonan...so it could totally be it


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I would let your BF do it for a while and then go both in the pen and see how that works, that is if there's enough room for the both of you.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Gribouilli said:


> I would let your BF do it for a while and then go both in the pen and see how that works, that is if there's enough room for the both of you.


Lol. I've been away for too long. So happy to see you're moving along.

I'd go sit on bf's lap and hang out. He probably was abused by ex-wife and prefers men. Perhaps if Lestat sees you hanging out with a male, he'll warm up to you.

I'd say it's almost time to get Lestat a friend.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

RatAtat2693 said:


> Lol. I've been away for too long. So happy to see you're moving along.I'd go sit on bf's lap and hang out. He probably was abused by ex-wife and prefers men. Perhaps if Lestat sees you hanging out with a male, he'll warm up to you.I'd say it's almost time to get Lestat a friend.


 I absolutely agree. I'm actually meeting with a breeder tomorrow (I get paid at noon) about an hour and a half away. And instead of buying a larger cage online, I'm going to see if I can buy one off him if he seems legit. Hopefully kill two birds with one stone. It's so hard to find anything rat related in Texas. :'(


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

SwampWitch666 said:


> I absolutely agree. I'm actually meeting with a breeder tomorrow (I get paid at noon) about an hour and a half away. And instead of buying a larger cage online, I'm going to see if I can buy one off him if he seems legit. Hopefully kill two birds with one stone. It's so hard to find anything rat related in Texas. :'(


Good luck, a well socialized trusting rat will help Lestat trust you too. Expecting extra pics!!!!


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Alright, so... long story. 

I've been searching for a breeder ever since I first got Lestat. (I did considered adopting from a rescue but the closest one was four hours away in Austin and they couldn't approve me for adoption without the home inspection.) So my first hit for a breeder was from the Houston Craigslist. I talked to this cool chick, we seemed to hit it off very well, I was making plans to drive the hour to get to her in Houston. But all of a sudden half her rats came down with some sickness, one ended up dying and she had to put several down. This was my first brush with the reality of his frail rats can be. So I asked her if she knew any other breeders, as it was hard enough to even locate HER. (Really, it's so hard to find a reputable ANYTHING in Texas.) She gave me two names, one never replied to me, the other... seemed kinda sketchy. I try to ask questions but I don't think he spoke much English so a lot of questions were left unanswered. So at this point, Friday is upon me. Poor Lestat is becoming more and more withdrawn and I'm pretty desperate to try to help him at this point. So I take a chance and head out to the sketchy dude's place, about an 1hr45mins away. Right as I'm about to get there, he texts me and tells me the rat he had available was just bought. I'm furious and I end up breaking down sobbing. My boyfriend tries to cheer me up by taking me to Petco to pick up some toys for Lestat. That's when I saw him: A single chocolate brown male in the tank that is exactly Lestat's size. The sales associate told me he was JUST returned by some kid who was allowed a single rat, but not two, so his parents made him return it after finding out they need to be kept in pairs. The chocolate rat was EXTREMELY sociable, very sweet and curious. So here I am with this chocolate boy, who's been alone for a week, and I can't help but think of my own lonely boy at home. Of course I bought him. 

So now we're home. We name the chocolate boy Louis. I put him on his own side of the room. (I know you're supposed to quarantine them in separate rooms but we don't have that much living space, being with roommates.) And Louis seems super stoked about EVERYTHING. I don't think there's been a second where he's been uncomfortable or particularly scared. After a couple excruciating days of them not officially meeting each other, I finally break down and let them meet. It was a hit. There was no fighting, no boxing, no nothing. They just smelled, cuddled, then slept.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Also, honorable mention: Lestat hasn't bit me since the last time I told you guys and he lets me pet him now. :')


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Oh I'm so happy you were able to find Lestat a good friend. You were so lucky someone brought back a rat that was already socialized as dealing with 2 unsocialized, bad tempered rats would have been a nightmare. What a #%%^ that guy for letting you drive that long and selling the rat to someone else at the last minute!!! So sad for the other rat that will stay alone though, sometimes parents are such idiots, argh. Anyway, I'm happy you find him as it would have been soooo sad for him to stay in a pet store after having a good home for a while.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

SwampWitch666 said:


> Also, honorable mention: Lestat hasn't bit me since the last time I told you guys and he lets me pet him now. :')


Yea for Lestat. So glad he is turning around


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Yeah, I definitely have been turned into a FIRM believer about them needing to be in pairs. After watching me interact with Louis, Lestat is a completely different rat now. If Louis is close by, Lestat will take food from my hands, will lay next to me, and likes scritches on his back. He still doesn't like to be picked up or touched on the head and I move slowly around him, but it's just an unbelievable improvement.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

SwampWitch666 said:


> Yeah, I definitely have been turned into a FIRM believer about them needing to be in pairs. After watching me interact with Louis, Lestat is a completely different rat now. If Louis is close by, Lestat will take food from my hands, will lay next to me, and likes scritches on his back. He still doesn't like to be picked up or touched on the head and I move slowly around him, but it's just an unbelievable improvement.


That's why it was so important to get a trusting/socialized rat. Another fearful rat would have made it much worse for Lestat and he would have become more fearful instead of more trustful. It is all great progress, you were very lucky here. Looking forward to hear more progress really soon


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## DragonGate (May 3, 2016)

That is so awesome to hear, but definitely, just watching a couple of rats all piled up together for a nap and you can see why they need their own kind's company. I'm sure things will keep getting better from here.

Just try not to be overwhelmed by the cute when they pile together in the hammock using each other's rumps for pillows.


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## SwampWitch666 (May 9, 2016)

Last update for this thread: Lesat has not bitten me since the last time I posted a picture of it. He has completely turned over a new leaf and honestly I can't believe he's the same rat. My other rat, Louis, is the dominant male and has bonded with my bf while Lestat chooses to come to me now and even seeks me out. All my nervousness about him biting me is gone and now he grooms my mouth? Not only that but he takes food from me easily and doesn't run away when I give it to him. It's been an EVERY DAY process for almost a whole month but it's totally been worth the time and pain. I can't thank you guys enough for helping me out, this could have been a disaster but y'all helped me save him. :')


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Aww so happy to hear that Lestat is doing so good now. You did a wonderful job with him, he is very lucky to have you


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