# Squamous cell carcinoma of the zymbal gland?



## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

I have a 2 year old tan and white hooded fancy (male, neutered) with no previous heath issues. He is currently on baytril as a preventive measure since he was showing a little discharge and one of his cage mates is currently sick with pneumonia.

This evening I found a small hard lump at the base of his right ear. Is is very firm and does not move with the skin. It appears that he has been scratching it. It is roughly 1/2 inch in diameter.

My research leads me to believe it is squamous cell carcinoma of the zymbal gland. 

Other possibilities are a facial cyst or abscess.

Any ideas? What do you think it might be? is there anything I can do if it is the cancer? If it is the cancer, what will he go through and how long do you think he has?

My little Bean (my rat with the pneumonia) might not be here if it were not for your help and guidance (your the best Kinsey!), Thank you for everything and if you have any ideas about Sputnik please be honest, I would like to know what it is even if it is not what I want to hear.


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Do you know how to put a picture up?

I do know the prognosis is very poor for ZGT.

Can you smell his mouth and ears for the infection smell?


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

It could be an abscess, and possibly an inner ear infection that has caused fluid build up, but honestly, I have nothing to offer but ideas and guesses. It would be good if you could smell the ear and possibly post a few photos..someone else may know more than I do, and I might have something to add about it if I see it.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

I will get photos up by this afternoon. When I tried to post photos on the forum I got a notice saying that the file was too big. I will post the pictures on my photobucket and provide a link.

I found these pictures last night, I though I would go ahead and link them while I worked on getting Sputniks photos up. Sputniks lump is identical, except a little smaller

http://ratguide.com/health/figures/squamous_cell_carcinoma_figure_2.php

What does the infection smell smell like? I just sniffed his ears (I tried the mouth too, but that did not go so well) and I could smell something, but I think it was just his normal scent.

I know smells are hard to describe, but if you could tell me if I am smelling for sweet, bitter, sour, strong etc. it would help a great deal. 

Thank you so much!


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## BVR.rats (Sep 17, 2009)

What did the vet who prescribed the Baytril say? I would definitely take him back and show the lump to the vet - if it's an abscess, it could be surgically removed before the infection travels too far into the brain and bone there.


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## rissa1227 (Feb 23, 2011)

how common are these tumors? scares the crap out of me


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

alrighty.... the rat photo shoot did not go well. You can't see the lump in any of the pictures because 1. he is a blur of rat energy and 2. he is such a light color and with such thick fur that you cannot make out the growth. 

The pictures that I posted previously are the best examples I could find.

I sniff checked him again and he still smells the same. Now I am sneezing like crazy lol.

I am still searching for a vet. The vet I got the baytril from I was not too pleased with (hardly any rat knowledge, crazy expensive, $100 for a 2 min office visit alone!!!!) So far, no luck, but I will keep looking.

What am I looking at if he has ZGT? Will he suffer? is it fast? slow?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

If the lump is right below his ear it could be several things but the first thing we think of is ZG as its probably sadly the most common. The other sad thing is that ZG is not recommended for surgical removal. Its a watch and wait and manage any discomfort until it's his time.

Have you checked the lump to see if there's a scab on or near it? Could it possibly be an abscess from a tussle with a ratfriend?


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

There are several scabs near the lump. At first, I thought it had to be just an abscess, but then I realized it felt nothing like one. I have dealt with abbesses before and they have all been fairly squishy and move with the skin. Also, my abscess rats tend to squirm away in discomfort if I poke at the lump. Sputnik's is as hard as a rock, does not move with the skin, ad despite his antisocial personality, he did not push me away.

:,( Poor buddy! The one thing that gives me comfort is that he old and has had a good long life. I am still very upset though, he just turned 2 and since he was fixed when I got him and has been heathy all his life I was thinking he might last a little longer.

I will keep everyone updated. This is the fist time I have dealt with this type of cancer and I will probably have a bunch of questions about how to maintain quality of life.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I will link you to Twiggy's adventure with what I thought was a parotid salivary tumour but acting a lot like a ZG. It ended up being one of the worst abscesses ever. Abscesses can fool even the most experienced of us and have done so for me many times. The only way to truly tell is to get an FNA at the vet (fine needle aspiration of the lump) to see if its solid, has pus inside or cystic material.

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4083229.0

I have had abscesses rock-hard, and sometimes with a bit of give and the same with tumours, you just cannot tell.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

It wouldn't hurt to hold a damp cloth on it, even if you think it's a tumor, it may surprise you by being an abscess. I don't think it could make anything any worse. Getting an FNA done is a good idea, too, but I know you've had vet bills like crazy lately, so it may be worth a try to do this, at least for a few days.

I've had abscessing that is rock hard, a cyst that was rock hard and purple in colour, and abscesses that were softer. At least with my rats, they tend to be harder feeling and can seem scary until they burst and there's nothing in there. I had one develop a core, as well, and it ended up being an absolute pain to remove. (small amount of pain meds, then snipped the edges away and pulled it out, it wasn't attached, just big and yucky) That particular abscess was really weird, it was normal at first and very small, and cleaned out really well, healed up, and then came back after a couple of weeks with a core. I ended up having to cut the outer scabby-thing/skin thing off (like lilspaz did in her thread, it's not as bad as it sounds) and going from there.


lilspaz, That was a huge abscess, holy crud. I'm glad he wasn't PTS.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Dang! Those pictures of Twiggy are amazing! I am so glad you saved your little boy, what a story!

I will try to warm cloth on Sputnik and see where it gets us. I happened to read up on abcess treanemt just a few days ago (the sticky) Who knew I would need to practice it so soon :-\

I will check into the FNA, I still need to find a good vet, which seems just about impossible right now. We have started looking into vets that are located 3-5 hours away, still, not much luck >_< None of them seem to take care of rats, and they always refer me to vets in my area that supposedly care for small exotics. the vet I took Bean to a week ago is the 'premier' small animal vet in the area, and I am NOT going back to her. Her prognosis ended up being correct, but I she was somewhat rude when I voiced my fears about the choke, and she just brushed me off (hence my panicky thread!). Her prices were also astronomical. I don't even want to know what an FNA would cost if a choke treatment was $500. Also, $50 for two weeks of Doxy seemed a little steep. When I looked online I found that it cost about %10 of that from pet drug suppliers!

I had no Idea abscesses had such variety! I am going to be watching it very closely and see what I can do. Sputnik is not going to like the warm cloth, I hope I can get him to co-operate. His scabs are around the lump, not on it. I don't know if that makes a difference, but it looks as though he is trying to scratch with his back leg and can only get so far before the lump stops him.

Poor buddy. Get better Sputnik! Mommy loves you too much to say goodbye!


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## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Where is it you live if you don't mind me asking? Someone here may have a vet reccomendation.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I'd be annoyed at even getting charged for an FNA, let alone charged a lot...my vet either did it free or for 5 dollars, something like that. I was in there already, getting antibiotics for a URI. He was finished with it in around 10 minutes and they were good to Romeo, even though he hated having a needle stuck in his tummy. The tech adored him, and was petting him and reassuring him when he came back out, she loved him, everyone there adores my rats. The little guy ended up back there for surgery in 3 days, as the cyst had doubled in size overnight. It was fine, one post-op abscess but he healed fast. Turns out there was a large cyst, which was made of hard grey tissue, and had some yellow pus inside it, and a smaller "seed" that was growing into another one. He actually showed them to me after the operation, very informative to see what exactly was cut out, if you're not squeamish!

Anyway, the little guy will put up with it if you're patient..try putting baby food on your finger and letting him lick at it while you hold the cloth on. He might get distracted- it isn't like it will hurt, so he'll eventually get used to the idea, especially if you have food.

The lump might hurt him, and if he cannot bite, he may scratch, trying to relieve the discomfort.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

I live in the Hampton roads area of Virginia, near the shore, about 45 minutes from the NC boarder.

Out of sheer curiosity, I called my 'current' vet (the one I am never going back to) to get a price on an FNA. I have no intention of taking any of my rats there again, but I was too curious about the price to resist. The grand total? 

$98+ lab costs! 

?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Are they kidding?! I was going to ask how much a cyst removal would be as well, but I was too busy trying to digest the price that they had just quoted to ask. My guess is that it would be around $700-1000 based on past experience. NUTS!!!!!!

I had no Idea cysts grew so rapidly! Maybe this is a good sign... I noticed that sputniks lump seems to be growing at an very fast rate, it has already seemed to grow by about 25% since I first posted on this thread. It is also taking on a slightly purplish color, but is still mostly pink. THink a very soft baby lavender. 

Tumors don't normally grow that fast do they?

I am about to try the warm cloth. I picked up some more baby food this morning so here is to hoping! I will update later today with how it went.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, Here is how everything went down.

No Change in the lump. I was able to hold the cloth on his lump for about 5 minutes (intermitanly through all the struggling and re-dipping to stay hot) and nothing Oozed. I was trying to continue, but we reached a breaking piont with Sputnik squeaking as if I were trying to kill him and and atempting to bodily throw himself from the table. Since he is notmaly a very mellow rat, I took this as a sign that it was tiime to quit for now. 

I will try again with my husband. maybe with the two of us (one holding, one feeding) it will go better. 

The lump is still hard and pinkish with a tinly bit of perple. He is acting himslef otherwise; good energy level, hungry, thirsty and as fat dumb and happy as ever.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

It could be a cyst, it could be a tumor, they can grow very fast, or it could be an abscess. It's pretty much down to getting it tested to really know.

More than a hundred dollars for an FNA? Whoa. I think that's a bit much. I could see them charging an office fee or a few dollars, simply because of the time and materials they use, but 98? O.O

All my vet did to figure out what the lump was is needle the lump and look at the cells under a microscope. (I think. I didnt watch him but I think that's what I remember him saying) He told me it was a cyst and would be harmless unless it kept growing. It kept growing, so we got it removed.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Alright, I am back to needing a vet then... >_< 

Geeze, I have microscopes at my disposal, if I could get a vet to draw a sample and learn what I was looking for I could do it myself without spending a hundred-somthing dollars! Grrrr..... I wonder if my horse vet friend can help me?

Still no luck with the abscess treatment. It is really hard to do though, so it still might be an abscess, and I just have to wait a little longer to drain it.

Come on Sputnik, work with me here.....

I will keep you all posted. Thank you so much for sticking with us through this!


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

GAAAHHHH!!!!! What is happening to my rats?!

I went to give the rats their daily freash food (bannanas today! Yum!) and what did I find? Blood all over the floor.

It turned out it was from Sputniks brother Reepicheep. Looks like he got his arn bit or scratched in a tussle. He is all cleaned up and looking good, except for one detail.

While I was scrubbing him up, I found a lump on him as well. It is not in the exact same place as Sputniks, but is feels the same and is locaded very close to the base of his ear. It is closer to his jaw though, like right where the mandible would meet the scull.

Salivary gland tumor? abcess? ZGT? The poor things are both two years old and rescues from my local SPCA. My guess is that they were proabably an accidental litter from a pet store doe and were dropped off at the shelter by the owner. We are not talking good breeding here.

I am going to treat it as an abcess and see where that gets us.

Sputniks lump is growing like crazy. It has already doubled in size.

They have one more brother living with them, so far, no lumps found on Megatron.

Heard of any good vets in this area? I am getting uber desprate!
:'(


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It also could be teeth, the molars are close to there, and there maybe be an internal abscess or rotting teeth, etc


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

He does have really horrible teeth, I forget the term, but his incisors grow crooked and require regular trimming to keep from growing out of his mouth or into his pallet. My husband and I have been doing rodent dentistry on him for about a year, and have been able to keep them in check. The last time we trimmed them was a few weeks ago, I was thinking he was getting long again.

The lump is in the back molar region though, do you think it would be safe to trim them? Can I do anything about a molar abscess or rotting teeth?

will my rats ever be HEATHY again?!

*crys*


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Frodowisebrandytook said:


> He does have really horrible teeth, I forget the term, but his incisors grow crooked and require regular trimming to keep from growing out of his mouth or into his pallet. My husband and I have been doing rodent dentistry on him for about a year, and have been able to keep them in check. The last time we trimmed them was a few weeks ago, I was thinking he was getting long again.
> 
> The lump is in the back molar region though, do you think it would be safe to trim them? Can I do anything about a molar abscess or rotting teeth?
> 
> ...


You need a good vet. I have pics of inside a couple of my rat's mouths if you are curious? One girl had such a mess inside her mouth that her back molars fell out of the infected flesh...the tissue was too inflamed to hold the teeth in place.

Have you started compressing? YOu said there was a dark spot on it now? ZG can often present as an abscess so you treat as an abscess, but once its burst and "empty" its not really, that's when you find the tumour underneath. If its a real abscess it will empty out with your help.

I have lots of gross pics to help you if you need them...mostly neuter abscesses etc, but they are all really the same.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

the pictures would be GREAT! Anything to help me out in treating these awful things.

My husband and I have been holding a hot/warm cloth to both sputniks and Reepicheeps lumps (that is compressing right?) but so far, nothing has changed. Sputnik's is huge though, I can't believe how fast it has grown. It is definitely turning more purple now, but he is still his normal self. It's like he does not even know it is there. Same for Reepicheep, but his is not anywhere near as large.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Could it be?! Sputniks lump has deflated!

I pretty much figured that we were facing a ZGT based on my futile abcess treatments. The skin under the fur on the lump was turning from lavender to a sickly purple/black color and it grew to a pretty enormous size. I was just trying to keep him comfy and as he was acting normal I thought that he would live out the rest of his days in peace and pass away either naturally or when I decided that his quality of life was so poor I needed to have him PTS.

This afternoon while we were eating lunch, my husband noticed that his lump seemed to have shrunk. I took a look (it had been large as ever this AM) and sure enough, it had gone down to just a slightly raised area. It is still a sickly color though.

I got him out immediately and began cleaning him up. Let me emphasize to you my difficulty. 

Sputnik is a rescue, and was not socialized at all as a youngster. I have done what I could, but he has never liked being handled or cared for. He is happiest in his hammock or at the food dish and wants nothing to do with humans or rats beyond using them as a pillow. This makes treating a problem on his FACE of all places very challenging.

As I tried to get him clean I noticed that he seemed wet around the ruptured lump, like something was oozing out, though I did not find anything in the cage. I think perhaps he groomed it off 

It smelt of bad corn and STRONGLY. I found some yellowish cottage cheese like stuff coming from the hole, and he also had a little blood mixed in.

After dabbing as best as I could I slathered it up with a triple antibiotic ointment and finally released him. he is now sulking angrily in his cage but not looking too bad over all. I really want to flush it, but I am afraid with all the squirming I will get most of it in his ear and cause an even bigger problem. Will dabbing it as clean as possible and slathering it up do the trick? Or do I need to just risk it with the syringe?

I am assuming now that it was a NASY abscess. Could it be anything else?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Nasty abscess but you big-time oopsed. NO ointment. It encourages healing and now you have the very hardest part to do ahead of you. You are going to have to make up a saline solution with warm water and flush out the abscess at least twice a day. Sounds like it burst and that's great but if you leave it alone, or encourage the skin to heal over with infection underneath (the ointment) then it will come back and possibly be worse.

VERY glad to hear you have joined the Abscess Club


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

is there any way to keep him still? Right now I have my husband holding him and me doing the work but Sputnik thrashes around so bad and the hole is RIGHT under his ear. I have had him wrapped, unwrapped, scruffed, coddled and fed, but nothing keeps him from squirming/thrashing/squeaking/clawing/nipping. I know that if I flush at least some of it will get in his ear.


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

All you can do is wrap him up tightly and try your best. Covering eyes can help, too, I have found. It's genius with birds of all sorts, the darkness calms them. If you can, wrap him really tightly in a towel, and then use part of it to cover his eyes so all you can see is the hole in his face. If you cover the ear as well, you'll be less likely to get saline inside. 

It was an abscess, and I'm happy it was! He'll heal, but because of the ointment it may be more difficult.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

I took the ointment off about 15 min after I put it on, as soon as I read lilspazs post. I hope I did not do too much damage -_-

The hole got quite a bit bigger while I was wiping the ointment off, I felt horrible, I am sure it hurt, but the good news is that it is now larger than a pin prick. I successfully was able to flush it this afternoon, and again just now! I was holding my thumb over his ear trying to block it. It mostly worked. Some of the watered down puss got just in his ear opening during a big thrash, but I was able to get it all out before it went in farther. I will try the trick with his eyes, ANYTHING to get him to hold still! 

So, I am to flush it twice a day with saline? Is that it? No other treatments? As soon as I finish I want to do it again, I keep seeing more junk come out and I just want to get it all OUT! 

Also, he has been on baytril since two weeks ago. Tomorrow (saturday) was going to be his last day. Should I keep him on it to guard against further infection while we get his face cleared up? Would it also help prevent an ear infection?


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

It's good you got it off, and you didn't do awful damage with it, it'll just make healing a bit more of a pain. 

Just keep flushing it, keep it clean, and make sure no more puss gets in there. Sometimes that means squeezing it gently every time you clean it until nothing comes out. The idea is for it to heal inside-out and not leave a pocket for infection to re-form. The outer hole should be last to heal. They heal really fast, you'd be surprised.

I wouldn't keep him on baytril, it won't do much in the way of fixing an abscess. They are truly a minor thing, they are icky, and not a lot of fun, but usually no major harm is done and healing is smooth. If you do keep him on it, any infection that does develop will be resistant, so that's not a good thing. Someone else may have more input on that, but in my opinion, no more baytril.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Sounds good! I will take him off the baytril as planned tomorrow if that is the general consensus. I just thought I might have to keep him on because of human treatments (If you get an abscess, cut, or bad abrasion of any kind they will put you on antibiotics to keep it from going septic)

I tried flushing him again this morning, but with not as much luck  I think I still got it pretty clean, but the hole got scabbed over with puss and blood overnight and when I tried to squeeze out the junk and get to the inside, he started bleeding a lot. I got the bleeding under control and did my best. I think it is safe to say that he now hates me though :'( He took one look at me coming at the cage and ran into his pocket hammock and refused to even look at me. I wish I could make him understand that I do it because I love him! Poor little guy.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Actually with a facial abscess like this? I would keep him on the baytril just in case. The saline flushes will break down any pus that is stuck deep inside over time, along with the abs, and the flushing alone should do the trick. Did the lump completely deflate or do you still feel a lump under it all?


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

The lump has completely deflated, now there is just a chunk of skin, about the size of a dime on his cheek of scab, blood, dead skin and fur. Under that is the pocket. I have been trying to clear the inside of the pocket as well as cleaning up the outside, but I don't think the outside is ready to come off like an old scab yet. If I pull on it, it starts to bleed around a rim.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Frodowisebrandytook said:


> The lump has completely deflated, now there is just a chunk of skin, about the size of a dime on his cheek of scab, blood, dead skin and fur. Under that is the pocket. I have been trying to clear the inside of the pocket as well as cleaning up the outside, but I don't think the outside is ready to come off like an old scab yet. If I pull on it, it starts to bleed around a rim.


For that scab to come off you need to soften if by damp compressing it...you can also attempt a quick trimming of the dead scab like I did with Twiggy  

The fact that there's no lump underneath means it truly was just an abscess NOT an abscessed ZG which can happen *whew*


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Hurahhh!!!! Thank you Jesus! Just an abscess. I can handle that 

I just flushed it again, I know it is only needed twice a day but I was feeling like I did not to a great job this AM with it. I just tried again and things were still hard but went much better. He did not bleed as much, and I was able to get 3 really good flushes before he wiggled away. I also got about 5 half flushes.

I think I will keep him on the AB. I looked at his ear and nearly had a heart attack. It looked as though blood was coming out O_O 

Once I got him relatively still and was able to clear the area a bit I realized it was blood from around his scab that he had groomed into his ear. It was all dry and had been groomed up and not down. I have no doubt though that some blood/puss/water has gotten into his ear though, in which case the AB would be a good precaution (right?).

How long will it take for the scab to come off with the compression? It is still very attached right now, just a small hole right next to his ear. I would say that about 20 degrees of the circumfance of the 'dime' has become detached. The rest is holding on tight. I would love to try to clip it, but I am going to do that only as a last resort. This rat is capable of very violently fast outbreaks. Putting a sharp cutting instrument that close to his eye, ear and wound would have to be a last ditch effort.

Thank you so much for all the help!! I would have messed up big-time if yall had not been guiding me. I will update again tonight with the final flush of the day!


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

I did not update again last night, because the flushing went well, and there were no new developments.

Morning update: THe wound has shrunk considerably! Also, his scab came off completely this AM! I think he was picking at it last night because it was nearly half detached when I got him out. After some compression and a few flushes, it was hanging off so I went ahead and took it the rest of the way off. he protested a little, but I did not see any new blood except for the dried bit that was in the pocket. Now that the scab is off, the pocket is exposed and is about the size of a large kernel of corn.

Now that there is no longer a pocket, should my treatment change? Should I keep using saline and just run it over the wound or use something else?


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## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Keep flushing it, run the saline over the wound if you need to, and keep it very clean. It should heal without issue.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Uh-oh.... There is still a lump.

I am thinking it is just a little pocket that has not fully drained yet, because I DID NOT feel it yesterday, and I don't think I would have missed it. It is on his jaw, and the original lump coved the entire area from his jaw to his ear. I will do some compression on it and see where it gets us.

Is it normal to have part of the pocket drain but not another?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Frodowisebrandytook said:


> Uh-oh.... There is still a lump.
> 
> I am thinking it is just a little pocket that has not fully drained yet, because I DID NOT feel it yesterday, and I don't think I would have missed it. It is on his jaw, and the original lump coved the entire area from his jaw to his ear. I will do some compression on it and see where it gets us.
> 
> Is it normal to have part of the pocket drain but not another?


the abscess capsule often has hard bits/walls that don't go down right away. If the lump continues to grow fast, then you still might be dealing with ZG.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

OK then... I am cautiously optimistic.

I will update again tonight, or tomorrow morning if there is no change by tonight.

Come on Sputnik, you can do it!


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Still the same last night and this morning... Looks like now it is just a waiting/flushing game.


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, I think it might be ZGT after all :'(

THe lump has grown a bit and gone bald. I am still flushing, but the abscess opening is healing VERY slowly.

I just about had a heart attack a few minutes ago. I walked over to the cage to find sputnik scratching at the wound and to my horror I saw him rip a large portion of skin with his claws. He started gushing blood. I mean GUSHING. It soaked right through his double layer hammock and down into the food bowl. His two brothers were quick to jump in it and then spread bloody paw prints throughout the cage. I grabbed Sputnik and immediately tried to stem the bleeding. I soaked through 2 paper towels and he was still dripping. I then used some flour and that finally did the trick, though, I am watching very carefully to make sure he does not rip it again. Right now he his lying in his bed not moving much. He lost a lot of blood and I think his body is feeling it. I had the same thing happen to his brother when he was younger. He chewed out his neuter stitches and nearly died form loss of blood. He is still with us two years later though. What a trooper!

Sputnik is acting identical so I am thinking that it is blood loss that is getting him down. I have offered him a variety of fruit and plenty of water but he is not interested right now. 

Do ZGT tend to bleed a lot? Or maybe he was just bleeding from his abscess wound. I can't see the cut at all as it is buried under a bunch of flour right now and if I take it off I am afraid he will start gushing again. I trimmed his claws (it was pretty easy while he was woozy) and hopefully that will prevent another big problem. 

Any advice? Does it sound like ZGT?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Yes sadly it does sound like Zymbals...I really was praying for you and your baby


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## raquel (May 13, 2010)

Hi,

I just saw this discussion and haven't read everything, but here is a reference on Zymbal's Gland Tumor:
http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/zymbals_gland_tumor.php
Squamous Cell Carcinoma:
http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/squamous_cell_carcinoma.php

To find a good rat vet, please go: http://aemv.org/vetlist.cfm > find vet in your area > ask vet if he sees rats. This is an international listing of the Association of Exotic Mammal Veterinarians.

If you are anywhere near New York City (even hours away), I recommend Dr. Anthony A. Pilny at Veterinary Internal Medicine and Allergy Specialists, 207 East 84 Street, New York NY 10028, 2129884650 (telephone). Dr. Pilny may also be a consultant on rat medicine for your vet, if his time permits, or your vet can consult a specialist in Mammals Small and Exotic on: 
http://www.vin.com/VIN.plx?P=AllCons Veterinary Information Network
For a consult with Dr. Pilny, it is best to ask me for his email.

Rat owners have listed their rat vets on ratfanclub.org > information pages > Health Care > Vet Referral List.

If you still need a good rat vet, you might find a vet in a reference above and ask if the vet can recommend a rat vet closer to you or contact the nearest university with a vet school and ask the same.

Thank you,
[email protected]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rat_lovers_united


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## Frodowisebrandytook (Mar 26, 2011)

Oh dear..... :'(

Well, at least now I know. What can I expect with ZGT? Is bleeding a lot a normal thing? Is there anything I can do to make him more comfortable?

Thank you for the links. I looked at the vet finder link and just as I suspected, the only rat vet in my area was the one that I have already visited and that I was not very impressed with. I am very hesitant to take my babies back to that particular clinic. The others range from 4-9 hours away. I will look into them for emergencies.

I live about 12-15 hours away from NYC  I am glad you have a good vet up there!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

bleeding can be a big part of it...keep him comfy as long as possible then take him that terrible vet to be humanely pts  ((hugs))


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## raquel (May 13, 2010)

Dear Frodowisebrandytook ,

I am not a vet and I was not making a diagnosis. I was just offering references that seemed pertinent to the discussion for you or vet to consider or rule out. You and a good rat vet will decide what's really going on. 

I suggest reading this on signs of pain in rats:
http://ratguide.com/health/basics/signs_of_pain_in_rats.php

If you and the vet decide there is great pain, he may prescribe Tramadol:
http://ratguide.com/meds/analgesics/tramadol.php

and even give an injection of buprenorphine if necessary:
http://ratguide.com/meds/analgesics/buprenorphine_hydrochloride.php
If rattie starts to eat things that are not edible, it can be a side effect of buprenorphine; if so, please remove everything from the cage that is not edible (for 24 hours?) and let vet know; the name of this side effect is _pica._

These drugs are opiate agonist analgesics for big pain. The vet will help you make rattie comfortable and tell you what to expect from whatever diagnosis is correct. Perhaps the right treatment will alleviate symptoms, including bleeding, for longer than you expect.

I am not personally familiar with ZGT. Maybe this person in my rat meetup has had experience with ZGT:
http://www.meetup.com/New-York-Rat-Group/members/9485371/
If so, I can try to connect you. I emailed her to confirm if she's the one that told me about it once.

Please feel free to email me privately with your city, state, in case I can come up with a vet who would know other vets closer to you. I am also emailing you Dr. Pilny's email for your vet to consult if necessary.

There may be vets not on any list who have experience with rats. I could ask on the rattie health yahoo group and ratlist yahoo group for a vet in your city, state. My rat groups cover a 12-15 hour radius, so there is hope.

Try to find a rodentry or rescue here:
http://ratster.com/breederlinks.html
and ask the owner for a vet recommendation for a rat or ask the recommended vet if he sees rats.

A caring vet might be willing to read and consult and help rattie. 

A post just came up on humane euthanasia. Since you've mentioned a vet you don't like, I hope the vet is humane for euthanasia. Full surgical plane anesthesia, preferably with gas, such as isoflurane, is required for humane rat euthanasia. Please learn ahead of time if your vet will make your rat totally unconscious (surgical plane). Sedation is not enough and rat can suffer. Please read:
http://www.joinrats.com/RatHealth/CompassionateEuthanasia/Euthanasia/15231033_FbQKn#1204711468_DLUWM

Thank you,
[email protected]


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