# Introductions, round 2!



## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

After aborting the mission last time of introducing our two rats (Dad had a heart attack so we had to fly to England), we're now starting the process again.

Yesterday, we cleaned out both cages and then put them next to each other. Last night, they seemed fine. There was an obvious curiosity, but the new one was just going about her business. The older one was too, to a certain extent, but she was also spending some time just staring at the other cage.

This morning, they have been taking more of an interest in each other. The new one is quite calm, but the older one is definitely a bit unsettled. She's not acting aggressive or anything, other than she's lying in her hammock all puffed up.

My question is, is this just her defending her territory (highest point in the cage, making herself look bigger) or is there something more we need to worry about?

One other question - how long should we leave the cages side by side before we attempt to introduce them in the bath tub? I know it varies between rats, but are we looking at days or weeks? Will it be stressing them out more by not getting it over with?

Thanks in advance


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

the foofiness is just her being protective of her space and saying to other rat that she is bigger so back off. the highest point in the cage is typically where rats like to hang out anyway. 

as for the speed its really up to your judgement. i tend to go a bit faster then most other people when introducing rats. sometimes it works out great other times i have to slow it down. if you feel that waiting is only stressing out your rats then introduce them and see how it goes. you can always slow down again if you have to. just make sure you're right there to be able to break apart any real fights (though if these are going to happen it doesn't seem to matter at what speed you go at-at least in my experience). i find giving them a bath together also helps them get over the whole territorial phase a bit faster. after a bath they will smell the same and if they take one together they often will comfort each other through the evil that is the ratty bath. i'm not exactly sure all the details on to why this works but those are my theroies. keep us posted on how it goes.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks, Twitch, I always like to hear your opinion on these things.

She only seems to have puffed up that one time. She's been quite calm and normal for the last couple of days, so I think she might be getting used to the idea, now.

I'm planning on introducing them tomorrow or Friday. They don't seem to be at all stressed in side by side cages, so I'll just bide my time and pick the ideal moment and go for it - water spray, garden gloves and towels to hand, of course! :lol:

I'll keep you posted.


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

what Twitch said is perfect, thats the same to what i do. I clean "their" cage and them so nothing has too much of a "MY HOME" smell to it and they go along with each other just fine. , When my little one is older i'll be moving him in with his dad .


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

After two weeks of our ratties being side by side, today, we decided to put them in the tub together.

I was terrified, and I think the young one ("lil buddy") felt it. I dabbed vanilla extract spots all over her, and my husband did the same with the older one ("Ratty").

I threw 4 or 5 towels in the bath, some paper towels and a cardboard tube for them to retreat to if they needed a bit of security. I also had a water spray and a spare towel to hand, to break up any fights that got out of hand.

The first time they met, Lil Buddy lowered her head and closed her eye while Ratty sniffed and pawed at her a little. They then sniffed at each other a bit before continuing to explore the bath tub. It was such a relief after the last time we tried this and Ratty lunged at Lil Buddy. Lil Buddy is the same size as Ratty now though, so I think Ratty is a little more cautious.

After a few minutes, and a few more encounters, we had a little scrap. I left it a while (maybe 5 seconds :lol before I sprayed them to break it up. I realise I need to let them play it out, but I was way too nervous to let that happen on the first meeting.

The water spray did the trick, and they were a bit more courteous when they sniffed each other after that. Unfortunately, it happened so fast that we didn't see which one started it, but we're guessing it was Ratty.

There were a few more squeaks as they climbed over each other to try and gain control of the tube, but nothing too frantic or serious.

Just before we fetched them out, there was another minor squabble that again was probably normal but I wasn't prepared to let them carry it to the full extent, so I sprayed them a little and broke it up. I let them dry themselves off (they weren't that wet, but still) before we took them out.

They both got a couple of treats and a lot of praise. The towels are in the washing machine and I will dry them and air them ready to have another "session" tomorrow. I will do this every day for a month if I have to, until I'm happy we're going to have no injuries. (overprotective? me? never! :lol I'm going to try and let them work out their squabbles on their own a bit more tomorrow.

I'm so relieved we still have two unharmed, albeit stinky*, rats!

* I didn't realise that females scent marked until we put these two side by side. I'm hoping they will stop doing it so much once they are friends and living together.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

glad to hear its going well! congradulations! 

but yeah, let them have their squables otherwise they're never going to sort out who's boss. but certainly its a good beginning!


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks! 

That's what I thought - as I get braver and they get more used to each other, it'll be easier for me to let them sort it out on their own. I think I'll be much better with that when it comes to tomorrow.

I think they've pretty much established Ratty is the dominant one, with the little one lowering and letting Ratty paw at her, but I think they still have a bit more debating to do. :lol:

If all of our sessions go as well as (or better than...) today, I will be quite happy. I can't tell you how much of a relief it is - I had horrible visions of Ratty killing the other one and us not being able to stop her (yes, I'm a terrible worry wort! :lol.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

as any mom is! but its ok, everything seems to be going along just fine.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks ever so much for the reassurance.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

So, day two of the introductions...

This time we didn't use the vanilla extract, and all we put in the bath were the towels and a couple of treats.

They checked each other out for a couple of minutes, then there was a tumbling squabble. I let it run it's course! **beams with pride** :lol: Unfortunately, there didn't seem to be a victor.

After about 5 minutes or a bit more, I put a few pieces of fruit in there, as I have read that if you can get them to eat together, it is a good socialising thing. They both took it in turns to eat the watermelon, ignoring the grapes and pineapple. Each rat approached the other while it was eating the watermelon and neither of them attacked, so we were pleased with that.

There were no more scuffles after the first tumble. Ratty (the older rat) did puff up on occasion and twice started siding up to the little one, but soon stopped with a stern "Ratty!" from me.

We think Lil Buddy is in heat, today. We are never quite sure with her, as she's not as obvious as Ratty when she's in heat. LB spent a lot of time running away from Ratty - though she did her share of checking Ratty out, too. She was also squeaking and kicking with her back leg, if Ratty got too near her rear end - she didn't do that yesterday.

I do have one question, though (if you've read this far :lol - Ratty kept trying to slowly push her way under LB. She didn't do this yesterday, and of all the media I've read on introducing rats (believe me, I've been obsessing in my reading :lol, I haven't read about that behaviour. I will do a bit more searching to see what I can find, but has anyone seen this before? Any idea what it means?

Anyway, we were up there about 20-30 minutes with just that one scuffle, so we're very happy with today's progress.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

sounds like today went great! a couple more sessions like that and it'll be time to swap cages and then get them in together! congradulations!
about your question though. i have seen it in my own rats during and well after introductions. with the younger ones it almost seems as if they're trying to intice the other to play. its the same with some of the older ones to but i've also seen them do that when they want to snuggle. they do it to ME all the time. though not being a rat myself i cna't really be sure what it means. but either cuddling or trying to get other to play would be my best guess. neither of which is a bad thing at this stage!

though maybe i have a different mental picture then what actually happened... now that i think about it. did she nose under her and try to get a sniff at the others bottom? i've seen that done too and that perfectly normal. so either way, good signs!


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm guessing it was the latter, then. Not that that's a bad thing, like you say. I just don't think she was trying to cuddle or play just yet.

I've read mixed reviews about swapping cages. Some say it's a good thing and then others say it can make the rats more unsettled. Is this something you always do? What has been your experience with it?

I'm really hopeful for tomorrow, when the lil one isn't in heat  Mind, you watch, Ratty'll be in heat and skittish tomorrow! :lol: I'm in no rush.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i don't often switch everyone. mind you i have more rats then you too. but what i do is take the most accepting and put it in the baby cage so the baby has a older buddy when they go in teh big cage with everyone else. 

with violet though i ended up rotating all the rats through her cage with her there. it really helped too. i have some less territorial ones and they went in first. two residents at a time. there was some puffing up and sulking but nothing serious. finally i rotated iedani in there with violet and kakushi (they seem to be inseparable now too) and left them for the weekend. when i came back i tok the cage to the car wash, rearranged it and put them all in together. haven't had a problem. 

but like i said, normally i don't swap cages i would think with them being side by side for so long they should be used to eash other's scent. just make sure you scrub the heck out of the main cage before you put them together. i've found that that was he most significant factor if they were going to accept the new one. but i also go fairly fast too so really its up to you. you can always slow down if you're going to fast.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm not sure how we're going to do it, yet, but we did plan on putting our two *Superpet cages* together.

I have been thinking lately that I might try and persuade my husband to let me but yet another cage, then scrub these two up and sell them on ebay or something. We saw lots of lovely cages when we were at Petsmart looking for one for Lil Buddy, but she was too small for some of them - they had really wide bars. Thinking about it now, we could've gotten the bigger one and put Ratty in it, then used Ratty's old cage for LB... d'oh!! Oh well, we'll think of something.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

So, today's question is... :lol:

Is it normal for a rat to roll over and submit one minute, then refuse to roll over the next? Lil Buddy rolled over about 5 times in the course of the half hour they were together today, then in between times she was putting up a fight!

Today went really well. Much less foofiness from Ratty, and not a single squabble... just a bit of wrestling and pinning down. I didn't need to use the water spray at all. We went bobbing for peas, too. Well, Ratty and I did - Ratty for her own, me for LB's to pass to her, 'cause she didn't like the water. There was only just enough water in there to cover the peas! :lol:

Oh, I do have one more question. When they say rats eating together is a good thing, do they mean eating together side by side, or eating at the same time within a reasonable vicinity of each other?


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I think I'll keep updating this thread as a reference for anyone else that is going through first time introductions... it might be helpful 

*Day 4 of introductions*

The last two nights, Ratty has been the one to say "ahem! Isn't it playtime, yet?" LB has been happily sleeping and had to be woken up.

Tonight's playtime went well, again. Ratty barely puffed up at all, and she was quite nice. LB is still submitting one minute and then being stubborn the next. They managed about half an hour again, before they were both trying to jump out of the bath. Towards the end of the playtime, LB was trying to hump Ratty and was generally being what we think was playful, although we're not certain.

I think it might just take time for them to learn each other's personalities. I just wish that the little one would learn to submit _every_ time, not just every other time. I think if she would do that, we would have this stage of the introductions beat.

I plan to have playtime twice a day, from tomorrow - morning and night. They were both lively this morning and when I put Ratty in her ball, I think she thought we were going for playtime. Twice a day might speed up the process, too.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

fist question: yes, that's normal. sometimes she's like "ok ok! you win!" other's she's "look! i JUST told you you won! back off! not this time bugger! owie! ok you win again..." its just normal ratty behaviour. 

second question: both is good. the point is is that they are sharing and not fighting. play fighting is different. they take the food so the other will chase them. which is another good sign so long as a fight doesn't break out over it. 

all in all it sounds like all is going great. 

give me some pictures of the cages and i bet i cna find you a way to conect them. i seem to have a knack for that.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

twitch said:


> "look! i JUST told you you won! back off! not this time bugger! owie! ok you win again...


haha! Love it! :lol: 

I'll take some pictures in the morning. They're both the same as the link I posted before, though, if you want to look in the meantime. We're in no rush, though; I think we'll be another week, yet.

Thank you again for the encouragement. It really does mean a lot.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

*Day 6*

Grr! I put them in the tub today and, because they have been trying to jump out sooner and sooner, I put a few more things in there and made it a bit more of an obstacle course. This kept them occupied for all of 5 minutes. :? 

They are not fighting any more. Ratty is still wrestling the young one onto her back, and the young one is occasionally winning and wrestling Ratty onto her back. Ratty is barely puffy any more. She only puffs up if the young one is winning a wrestling match.

If they are not going to stay in the tub when I put them together for a playtime, I'm out of options. I have nowhere else for them to play together. I'm wondering if they are now ready to go into a cage together? If so, I'll do that tomorrow morning, so I have a whole day to monitor them before they are alone at night.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

you could probably put them in a cage together so long as you make sure the scrub the heck out of it beforehand so there's one rat smell. did i mention how much i love carwashes recently? takes all of five mintues to get it clean back to store bought perfection. takes me hours to that by hand and it never gets as clean as i would like it. car washes are wonderful things... even if the people look at you a little odd.... *grins*

but another placee to put them to play would be the couch, bed or chair with you there with them. my girls love to play or chill out with me there, i bet your would like it too. if you let them play on the bed though just make sure the bedding that's on there is something that you wouldn't mind a bit of chew marks on.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Well, I figure we'll use LB's cage - which is also the newest cage. Once they have been settled in there for a few days, we'll look at attaching Ratty's cage.

I've made some new hammocks, today. Different style to the ones they're used to and I'll hang them in different places. I've bought a new water bottle, chew toys, nail and teeth wearer-downers :lol:, I have a spare wheel that hasn't been used, some different bedding that neither of them have had before and I'll rearrange the shelves and ramps. I think that's covered it all :lol:

All I need to do is scrub the heck out of the shelves, tray, ramps and bars. I'll ask the hubby about the car wash idea.

As for the sofa and the bed, we often have LB out on the couch with us at night, but since Ratty bit me so badly, we have been very careful in what we do with her so as to minimize any further bite opportunities. We are building up the trust again with her, and she is responding quite well, but I don't know if I'd risk having her on the couch with me. It has crossed my mind, though, and I would like to be able to. Maybe, if the cage move tomorrow doesn't work, I'll brave the couch thing.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Despite this morning's crappy playtime, I decided to go ahead and try again this evening. It couldn't have gone any better!  They didn't stay in there too long again, but I think that's just because they are bored of the same place. The main thing is, they were running side by side, following each other through the tube, under the box lid and all around the bath. Hurray!  I really do think they are ready. I've got some serious scrubbing to do in the morning. Sod's law that our aircon broke today and tomorrow is forecast for 87°F! :lol:


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*chuckles* makes the car wash idea sound all the better doesn't then. the nice cool back spray from the high pressure hose.... let us know how it goes putting them together today.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I can't stop, but I just thought I'd let you know I'm looking at two ratties in a hammock, right now.  I'll update properly later. I just wanted to let you know it's going well so far and thank you so much for all your help!


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

OK, I have a little more time, now.

I didn't actually get everything done and ready until this evening. I scrubbed the little ones cage out and rearranged the platforms. I put two new hammocks in there, as bunk beds so they could sleep together or apart if they needed space, and I put in the new water bottle and chew things etc. I put some vanilla extract on a tissue and wiped it all over the parts of the cage that aren't new, just to be sure, and I stuck lots of food and treats in there to keep them occupied and to avoid squabbling.

For the first hour, I sat about a foot away from the cage. I was doing my own thing, but they could see I was close. They checked out the cage a lot, climbing over each other to check out what the other one was looking at. There was no puffing up, no biting, no squabbling... just a bit of wrestling and a few squeaks from the little one. Within 3 hours they were curled up in the same hammock together! 

Right now, Lil Buddy is still in the hammock, all stretched out. Ratty has got up and is chewing on a pecan. We couldn't have asked for a better union!

They have been together for almost 4 hours, now. We will be up at least another 2 or 3. As it stands atm, I have no concerns about leaving them overnight. 

We have them just in the one cage, for now. I'm going to give them a couple of days - that cage is big enough for the two of them - and then I will attach Ratty's old cage and give them loads more room. I just want them to get settled after all the changes before I go making more changes.

Twitch, I cannot thank you enough!! You have been so reassuring and quite honestly, I would've been a nervous wreck without you! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

nice job with your little ones!!! I let daddy meet one of his sons today, Xavier and it was truly sweet!! they cleaned each other and just moseyd around! i love how gental Naz is !! Good to hear about your babies too!!! i have to say Twich does know what she's talking about  :wink:


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Congratulations! Isn't it nice when it works out? This was my first time, so I was soooo nervous, but to see them curl up in the hammock together after just 3 hours was beautiful.


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

It truly is, i had Naz and little ones on my bed this morning and there wasn't really any wresling just Naz tiping the little ones onto their backs. I'm stoped him a few times when the little ones didn't sound too happy. Most of the time i let them get it out their system. I put some fruit down and Naz took some of it to the little babies!!!  however a few moments later he decided to steal it back. Heck i think it could be worse so i'm happy . 
(i didn't have all 12 babies with him at once, i had 2 today)


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

cangradulations DonnaK! i knew you could do it. they sound quite happy with each other. i appreciate the thank you but remember it was you who got them to like each other and a fine job you did. next time you'll have this to fall back on and you won't be so nervous. 

Naz: safety first of course but in my experience when introducing young babies (like the age yours are now) if the adult male was going to harm them or reject them he would have done so by now. you can probably introduce Naz to all of the babies at once now. and (i can't remember is you said the babies were separated yet or not) when the boys are ready to leave mom you can start proper intros so they can all share the same cage (assuming the cage is big enough for all of them). also, with the larger number of babies to adult rat the adult is less likely to pick on any one baby too much. keep us updated


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i just found your link about your cages. i can't tell by the picture but is there a door on top? if there is then pull that off and zip tie the other cage on top. depending on how industrious you are you can make a couple different floors to protect their feet from the bars. 

there's always the cloth liners you can make. they can removed and machine washed when they get gungy but they'll to get chewed and they will hold odour. but they will also absorb mositure. 

you could also buy the squares of tile from the dollar store with the sticky back. i have that for one of my floors. you stick them on either side of the cage roof/bottom so the rats don't get stuck to the underside but you'll need to either have someone hold the floor peices together or have clamps while you drill holes for zip ties. if you don't zip tie the 2 peices together the roof part will fall off. this floor gives a clear very of what`s going on in there and easy enough to wipe down but you lose a bit of space without the tray and there are no solid walls to hold things in.

then there is another way (a method i'll be using next week) drill a hole large enough for a rat to get through in the tray of the cage you'll be attaching on top. make sure teh hole lines up with where the hole of the door is of course. then you dril holes for zip ties, zip tie it up and finally attach the new part of the cage just like you would normally. this method lets you take the cage apart easier if you have to transport or when you clean and it gives them that little bit of extra space the tray provides. also you can now fit a dig box in there and the dirt won't go flying everywhere. i don't know what its like for wiping down yet though but i'll be sure to let you know about it. i`ll probably have mine set up before you. 

having said all that if you don't have a door on the top that you can remove you can make one or your own. get a pair of wire cutters (and perhaps some leather or gardening gloves to help keep you hands from getting too too sore). cut the wires you want out in the middle then hold the end where it conects to the vertical wire tight and wiggle the broken bit back and forth. this will give a clean and safe cut right at the joint. but make sure to hold the joint tight or the wire could break off further down then you want. 

and remember, we want pictures of the new cage once it`s done and set up.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

I thought I'd share some of the fruits of our labour with you.  I got a good photo opportunity tonight and thought I'd share.

"We were just playing, Mum, honest!"










"Gis a kiss! MwahMwahMwahMwahMwahMwah!"


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

AAWW so cute, I love how you've made them hammock bunk beds lol. I let Nazy play with the two babies he did before and they were all over him and he even played with them!! then if they got into a heated game with sqeaks he would split them up! oh he's been such a good little boy!


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

YAY YAY YAY sorry i HAD to post this!!! i had cleaned out Naz's cage and was giving the babies sometime to settel in (not just yet but just to get a better idea of how Naz would be). I gave them a few bones to nibble on and i say a few because i wanted to prevent fighting . Then Naz draged a big bone over to the babies and then they all say there nibbling together!!! i couldn't believe how well they are doing so soon!!! i'll try to take a pic if i can.


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## Nazarath (Feb 20, 2007)

YAY YAY YAY sorry i HAD to post this!!! i had cleaned out Naz's cage and was giving the babies sometime to settel in (not just yet but just to get a better idea of how Naz would be). I gave them a few bones to nibble on and i say a few because i wanted to prevent fighting . Then Naz draged a big bone over to the babies and then they all say there nibbling together!!! i couldn't believe how well they are doing so soon!!! i'll try to take a pic if i can.


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## DonnaK (Feb 8, 2007)

Oh yes, we definitely need pictures of that! My camera sits beside me at all times, atm :lol:

What a good dad Naz is being!


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