# Rat Dominance?



## RexRat (Nov 29, 2013)

Do rats really show dominance? (I learn something every day!)
I know that the myth that dogs do is debunked, so I figured I would ask Rat Forum!

How might a rat show dominance?


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## DustyRat (Jul 9, 2012)

Dogs do in fact show dominance. Part of the pack mentality.
Rats will wrestle and pin each other to show dominance. The rat doing the pinning will often vigorously groom the rat getting pinned.


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

DustyRat said:


> Dogs do in fact show dominance. Part of the pack mentality.


http://www.4pawsu.com/DebunkingDomMyth.pdf

This is precisely what is being challenged. It's a given that rats wrestle and pin each other, and framing it in a model of dominance/submission may even fit many scenarios and seemingly explain what is happening. Nonetheless, many people doubt this is the case.

How is it clear, to use your example, that vigorous grooming is being done to express dominance and not--say--as an instinctive way of reinforcing social ties?


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

I think it is looking at the idea of submission and dominance in a very human way. Rats to tend to show a mixture of submissive and dominant behaviours, more of one than the other depending on there place in tbe pack. Its all part of having a heirachy that works and is stable. They do have an alpha, and often a beta to, if you spend yime observing them in a natural group its easy enough to see. Tying down tne behaviours is a little harder as theres a lot in the way they do it if you know what I mean. For instance another rat lieing on its back being groomed is classically submissive, yet ive seen a dominant rat fling himself under a lower ranking cage mate, grab his face and demand to be groomed. That is actualy a form of reaffirming its place in the pack and demanding what he wants, its a dominant behaviour, it doesnt mean hes bothered about the principle so much, he just wants to get groomed and feels its his right.

I do find this new anti dominance thing a bit silly, when I read stuff about it it is very much written against the kind of over the top verging on cruel behaviour so e people do in mimicing behaviour they see in there animals, such as a human flipping and pinning a rat. I see myself as a naturally dominant lwner, that doesnt mean I beat my rats up, or that they are scared of me, just that I tend to be a firm confident handler which the rats love. Because of that I have only once ever had a rat of mine show aggression towards me, and that rat was over 15 years ago.me and my rats have a very respectful and loving relationship, yet some of my behaviour towards them could be classed as dominant. I suppose that's what a lot of people forget in the whole dominance argumant, its actually about respect, once you or a rat in the pack earns it then actually you dont need to reinforce it, its just there, a kind of mutual trust that we all know our place in the world. It takes something significant to change it.


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

Isamurat said:


> They do have an alpha, and often a beta to, if you spend yime observing them in a natural group its easy enough to see.


With due respect, I disagree, and asserting simply that it's there does not do much in the way of persuading me. As with my previous response regarding grooming, what did you observe that was so obviously this case?



> yet ive seen a dominant rat fling himself under a lower ranking cage mate, grab his face and demand to be groomed. That is actualy a form of reaffirming its place in the pack and demanding what he wants, its a dominant behaviour, it doesnt mean hes bothered about the principle so much, he just wants to get groomed and feels its his right.


Again, without the assumption that the rats are trying to maintain dominance (i.e. access to resources), how does it necessarily follow that your explanation is in fact what is happening? 



> I see myself as a naturally dominant lwner, that doesnt mean I beat my rats up, or that they are scared of me, just that I tend to be a firm confident handler which the rats love.


It does not sound like your relationship with them is one of dominance at all, but rather one of leadership. Dominance implies that you have priority access to resources... yet you never compete for their food, their preferred spots in the cage, etc. Where is the dominance here???



> I suppose that's what a lot of people forget in the whole dominance argumant, its actually about respect, once you or a rat in the pack earns it then actually you dont need to reinforce it, its just there, a kind of mutual trust that we all know our place in the world.


...So the supposedly dominance-asserting behavior (forced grooming, pinning cagemates down, etc.) _stops_ once the hierarchy is established?

EDIT: I would just like to add that a model of animal behavior need not be correct to get desirable results. Every religion in the world, for example, has a model of the world that appears to explain it and serves its believers well through their lives, even though they all have very different models.


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## bazmonkey (Nov 8, 2013)

Pardon the double-post, but before this thread gets potentially heated, I want to make clear that while I passionately argue this topic, I have nothing but appreciation for everyone I reply to. I mean no offense at any time, it's just my desire for a good debate. No ad hominem arguments from me


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## Isamurat (Jul 27, 2012)

Appologies, I wrote my previous post at 5:30 am ish and just before I headed off for work, I didn’t have time to flesh it out properly. In terms of pack heirachy I wrote an article on it a while ago for my club magazine, I will quote it here as it probably explains best my observations of rat pack behaviour, though there is a lot that words cant do justice to and its about knowing your rats well.



> Rat social structure
> 
> Rats naturally live in complex social groups, this contains a set hierarchy where a rat knows their place. A rat with a stable hierarchy is generally a happy one, problems usually occur when the social structure changes for some reason, whether this be the addition of new rats, illness, a surge in hormones triggering one of the rats to want to change its status or some other environmental disruption. Understanding your rats position in there group can help you understand more about their behaviour and better understand some of the interactions witnessed. Hierarchy’s are much easier to observe in larger groups group sizes over 4 generally giving a much richer picture of social interaction. The terms, Alpha, Beta and Zeta rats are generally used in scientific research, as far as I am aware gamma rats are my own invention to split the normally broader beta group into those with an interest in cage politics and those without.
> 
> ...


I actually have a much more detailed article looking at social behaviours to.

I think relating to the dominant rat demanding to be groomed it is a case of watching it and knowing rats, I’ve kept rats now for over 25 years, I’ve grown up with them as I was 5 when I got my first rats. Whilst this doesn’t make me a rat psychologist it does mean that I’ve grown up learning to read there communications and interpreting them, and this means I thankfully don’t tend to get it wrong often. Unfortunatly words can only communicate so much and I’m the first to say I am not the best with words, anyway I will try and explain it again now I have more time.

A lot of people see a rat belly up being groomed by another rat as the bottom rat being “submissive”. This typically happens with the groomer initiating the contact, and the groomee rolling over and allowing it, in some cases it is clearly done reluctantly out of a desire to please the rat (theres a hurried look to it, the bottom rat is tense as is the aggressor) and in some cases it is done for mutual bonding (both rats are relaxed, it isn’t rushed). In the case I describe (it happened several times) one of my boys Mu was a fairly dominant lad, not top of the pack but heirachy and being high up it mattered to him, I would call him a beta rat. In his group there was a lower ranking rat (Odin) who was very much not interested in cage politics, pretty much you’re a typical gamma lad, he wasn’t bullied or harassed but clearly was at the bottom of the pile. One day I watched as Mu walked in his typically confident manner up to Odin, he then flipped himself over rolling under Odins face, who was sat in a corner, Odin didn’t do anything at first, seemingly frozen in what I recognise as an uncertain moment. Mu then reached up with his paws and grabbed odins face skin pulling him in to groom him. Odin got the idea but was reasonably tense as he groomed Mu, when Mu let go he stopped and attempted to move away, Mu followed him and repeated and Odin groomed him for longer. That seemed to satisfy them both and it ended. It was clear that the confrontation was Mu telling Odin he wanted his belly grooming, this was not a behaviour he tried with any of the other cagemates who included Loki (Odins brother and cage alpha) and Yoshi (Mu’s brother who was lower ranking than him but a fellow beta type rat). I have since seen it in a couple of other rats, always with a fairly dominant rat to a very low ranking rat. 

The thing with me being a dominant owner means that my lads would give up food if I took it (and have in the past when they’ve got hold of something they shouldn’t), if I move them they allow me to do it without question, they are happy to be picked up and handled by me even if they clearly want to be somewhere else, we haven’t quite got there with me stopping them from trying to jump into the coal scuttle yet though. But to me dominance is a form of leadership and also a form of respect, I don’t feel that we are arguing over the principle, but very much the interpretation of a word. I use dominance to mean that the rats acknowledge and respect me and are prepared to do as I ask if I ask it (well if they know I mean it, there still typical cheeky naughty rats lol, but when it matters we have a great bond). It’s the same in a rat relationship, a dominant rat to me is one that cares more about the results of conflicts and its place in the world, its not necessarily one who is the top ranking, or a rat who is aggressive, its kind of shades of grey lol. In fact some of the hardest in cage situations come where you have a rat who is dominant but doesn’t have the necessary confidence or resources to achieve its goal, they generally cause a lot of issues in a group until the situation is. I suppose when I think about it it’s the equivalent to the human assertiveness or even ambition in my interpretation of the word.

And yes your right, in most cases properly dominant behaviour does stop, or subtly change once the hierarchy is settled, its when the hierarchy is unsettled you see a lot of it. I think the thing is when you watch a behaviour people count as dominant and can read rat body language its easy to see the meaning behind it. Say a rat pouncing on another, done with a playful bounce, relaxed but very energetic postures on rats and it becomes play, done with a more serious approach, lowered head, maybe fur slightly raised, or a deliberate calculated approach and the recipient in a tense state and it verges on aggressive and is a way of demonstrating dominance or whose boss. Its like anything, its not as simple as my rat bruxes therefore its happy

And I enjoy a good debate too, especially on behavioural topics, it really fascinates me and I do spend a lot of time just watching and being around my rats. By the way there’s a really interesting book that touches a lot on the subject, called “Rats, there impact on us and our impact on them” or something like that, it looks at some of the differences and similarities between wild and fancy rats as well as rats of differing species. I really enjoyed reading it, though if your uncomfortable with the idea of animal testing then I’d avoid it as its fairly frank with where a lot of the data comes from.


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think in a domestic setting with a small amount of rats, hierarchies are hard to see established. I have two cages of rats, one with two boys who are awaiting a neuter to join the main cage, and the other with 9 rats. 
In my smaller cage, it's not obvious who is in charge. They're both brothers and it seems to depend on the day and what is being squabbled over. I view this as being an unstable relationship, despite everything being perfectly ordinary as per the fancy. I think again with smaller structures social hierarchies cannot be established -- I would say any number under 4. In such a domestic setting, there is rarely a need to fight for resources but I think perhaps if one were to again watch a colony it is more obvious.
In my larger cage, social relations are more obvious. There is the old rat Iris (female, aprox. 2 years), then the second eldest are Caius and Remus - brother and sister, and then their 6 children (5mo). Remus runs the show in this cage. Just last night one of the children chased and pinned Caius; Remus, from the other side of the room charged over and bowled Artemis off Caius and began to groom her when she acceded to the pin. I also see it in social events; Remus will watch one of the kids do something (say, jump in the window) and will mimic the activity. Once he has succeeded, he gets first rights and everyone has to stand out of his way.

As to the human role in the matter, I strive to be a stable, strong point in the relationship. If Remus is overzealous in establishing his dominance then I will step in and remind him that I love all the rats equally and expect them to all be treated fairly -- Demetria in particular seems to be "bullied" a lot, and flourishes when I intervene. I'm like a parent to them, and that does grant me an alpha role. I don't need to compete for resources, but my rats do understand that if I am doling out treats it will be in the order I please or not at all which I would guess is similar. Last night we had mashed potatoes off my finger, and if anyone would've made a rush in they likely would've bitten me badly.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I read the article on dog training... I oddly found myself in agreement with much of it especially the part where it suggests that people train dogs on a model based on communication... sounds a bit like immersion doesn't it? I further concur that the best rat alphas don't rule by force. I've seen this for myself. Rather rats seem to be capable of giving and receiving respect similar to what the dog article suggests dogs do... The article also correctly suggests that by applying too much dominant force you can do more damage than good which is also correct....

But simply put, this is only half the truth when it comes to rats and dogs....

There are in fact cases where a dog or a rat is being status driven and is exerting it's wrongly perceived alpha status dominance and the appropriate amount of force resolves the problem quickly and appropriately. Basically it lets you move on to the reward driven socialization.

I've seen cases where humans screwed up their dogs by being overly dominant and I've seen a case where a dog actually ran it's household by allowing some people in and keeping other's out and literally pushing around it's submissive owner... The owner complained that his Doberman wouldn't wear a leash and walked itself... Perhaps a little convenient, but when it kept his girlfriend hostage on a counter for a couple hours and bit him for coming home late, another friend who was with us, a retired US Army dog trainer, correctly diagnosed the problem as dog alpha dominance behavior. Sure not every rat or dog problem is alpha aggression, perhaps it's even uncommon, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

The truth is that rats do prefer to live in a rich and somewhat complex social structure (packs - for short), that rats have not been domesticated for thousands of years and do retain more natural instincts than dogs. Certain rats do bully other's and will try to bully humans as well. And that in keeping with the immersion, communication model of rat training sometimes a certain amount of corrective assertiveness on the part of the human is required. 

OK for the guys here... I've been working on cars since I was a kid, my dad was a certified master mechanic, tool maker, welder, supervisor and Plant manager... I learned from a professional with lots of skills and although I've never worked in a shop professionally I enjoy restoring antique cars... There are very few jobs I haven't done, even though I'm too old to do some again.... Now automechanics 101 teaches you to work with care and finesse, to never over-torque a bolt or use too much force... You give any novice a small tool box with shiny little tools and a can of liquid wrench. Then you look at the tools a master mechanic owns... they always include a torch, a sledge hammer, a set of punches and chisels, a breaker bar and a 4 foot pipe extension, an air gun, perhaps an air hammer and air drive cutting tool... When you are working on cars where the bolts you are turning have been rusted in place for 50 years, or everything has been bent in a crash, you are way out of auto shop 101 and you use the big boy's tool set and in the case of antiques the parts you are removing can't be replaced half of the time... so you are working surgically with a sledge hammer and a chisel or a torch... 

Dealing with an aggressive alpha confused rat requires using tools and methods you would never use with any normal rat. It occurs more often in rats than dogs because rats have only been domesticated for a relatively few human generations, but it never the less requires surgical precision... both finesse and force as appropriate. Your alpha aggressive rat will not stop attacking and biting you when you eep and offer him a Yogi-treat.

So, I consider the article a good dog training 101 guide... it's actually more right than wrong, especially when it refers to communication as a guiding principle... but some folks are going to run across rats with advanced dominance problems and this kind of advise is going to get them into deeper trouble, not to mention bit over and over again.

The best advise I can give anyone is to see their human alpha role as a parental role. You lead with love and encouragement, but you don't let your rats or kids push you around or control your agenda. 

Dominance training is in fact correct and appropriate in _*some*_ cases and absolutely wrong in others... Like a good parent or master mechanic you pick the right tool for the job. 

I know it's easy to find yourself in one camp or the other... But you will never find a master mechanic without both fine and heavy duty tools. Similarly any theory of rat behavior that is stuck on one method of dealing with different problems is too limited. Sure some dominance trainers were over the top, other's who moderated their methods were actually quite successful, and sure some of the reward-based trainers have good results too, but their methods don't always work either. So yes... I strongly believe in communication as the guiding principle overall.... but I use the right tool for the right job. 

Never let any philosophy prevent you from doing what's right...


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