# Uh oh...



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

When I got Taffy, the guy at the pet store said he was a male.
When I got home, my son looked at him and said he was a male.
I compared Taffy against Tuffy, and felt confident he was a male.

I've had Taffy almost 3 weeks, and I'm beginning to be pretty sure he is NOT male.
I've been telling myself that he didn't have any "baggage" because he was so young, but at his size and age now, I should be seeing something, and I'm not.

I've not actually seen any breeding attempts, but I'm not seeing any body parts growing either. I am making the assumption I've missed the breeding.

So....since "he's" been living with Tuffy, who I am absolutely sure is male, when should I expect the happy surprise?
How long is gestation? Do I need to remove Tuffy when the babies are born? Is there anything special I need to do for Taffy to prepare her for birth - special food - special bedding - etc.

How many babies should I expect...i.e. what is a normal sized first litter? Anything I need to watch for, get in readiness, meds or helpful supplies I should have on hand?

So, since I don't want this happening again, and I don't think I can bear to part with either of them, how much should I expect to pay for a neuter? Do neutered males get along better than unneutered ones?

Oh boy, just what I didn't want. I got a very young rat to be a friend for Tuffy for the specific facts that I hoped it wouldn't already be bred, since I get them from the feeder bin, and to make the introductions easier. Guess I also made sexing a little harder too.

Oh well, maybe they will all be adorable females and I can leave them with Mom indefinitely! I'll be moving them into a Ferret Nation soon....as soon as they won't fit thru the bars anyway.


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Get the ladies spayed, instead, in my opinion. It's way more benificial to them.

Hopefully you don't have a litter on the way but separate them NOW.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

Having ANY sort of vet work done on a rat is NOT going to go over well with the significant other. I was making the assumption that neutering would be more cost effective than spaying. If left up to him, both would go and problem would be solved.

Now...back to my original questions....anyone? Could use some input here.


----------



## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

Rats are going to need vet care throughout their lives. Neutering is cheaper in the short term, as it is cheaper than spays, but spays are cheaper long term, as they prevent mammary tumors, uterine tumors, uterine infections, etc, which all cost money to treat and mammary tumors especially are extremely common. No one can really give you an estimate of what it will cost but your vet, as it varies a lot from vet to vet and area to area. Just start calling around.

Gestation is three weeks give or take a few days, but who knows how far along she is.

You need to separate the female and the male NOW and hope she isn't pregnant, but even if she is already pregnant, you still need to remove him.

If you browse through the caring for accidental litters section you will find a lot of advice for determining pregnancy and how to prepare for a litter. In fact, I am moving this there since it is where it belongs.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

Yes, this section of the forum is quite informative.
Guess I just never thought to look here. Thought it was more for AFTER they were born.
Thanks!


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

luvabunny said:


> Yes, this section of the forum is quite informative.
> Guess I just never thought to look here. Thought it was more for AFTER they were born.
> Thanks!


Post a pic of both babies? Its possible that they are both very young, Taffy and Tuffy and haven't started being interested in reproducing yet.  But as said, separate them now just in case they aren't...why chance it?


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm just not sure that Taffy is female. A few days have passed since I first posted, and it seems there may be a bit of growth beginning. I certainly can't see any nipples at all, as I have read that you can in females. I've also been told that non dominate males may keep their privates more, well, private, and withdraw them inside.

I compared them, once again, side by side, while they were both hanging on the sides of the cage and they still appear VERY similar to me, with the exception of the actual bumps.

I hesitate to separate them, in the fear that reintroduction may be impossible if I am wrong. They are getting along quite well at the moment, and I hate to risk that. It has become very apparent to me that rats mature very quickly, and I don't want to let the few days it may take for his maleness to show itself to jeopardize what seems to be a good thing.

At worst, I am wrong and a litter of babies is produced. If that happens, I will love and care for each of them, and find great homes for any I cannot keep. At best, I'm just being a worrywort and the 2 males will continue to live as good friends.

I will check around with some of the local vets, to see what a neuter will cost. I would love to have a few more, especially now that I've got the Ferret Nation cage, and hope that neutering will negate any aggression.


----------



## smesyna (Nov 22, 2010)

You need to separate them ASAP. A litter is a huge deal, if one is female and is not already pregnant you do not want to get her pregnant by not separating her.

Also, please post pictures, they will help a lot.


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

They will look very similar, because males have a sheath and females have a urethra.. The testicles are it, and usually have descended by the time they are weaned.

SEPARATE NOW. If you want more rats, rescue some who are in need of homes instead of creating more. You say you can't do medical care, then you shouldn't have rats, especially not a bunch of them or a pregnant doe, for whom pregnancy is dangerous especially at a young age.


----------



## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

So, as has been said, you should separate them immediately. 
I'm not trying to sound immature but in-tact males pack some SERIOUS heat. Thou shalt know, Lol. It's so obvious you may want to shield sensitive children's eyes from it.

Just separate them and wait. Prepare a nursery, and wait. Leaving them together and hoping it turns out to be a less than endowed male who should have already developed, is going to land you with about 12-18 babies who will have to be kept with mom for, I'm not sure. What is it guys, 4, 5 weeks? Then they HAVE to be separated by gender, or inbreeding will begin, usually as early as about, hm, 5-6 weeks? 
Rodents are ready to procreate far far sooner than most other animals. 

Better to separate them now and watch hir develop into possibly an obvious male than to wait and end up with a surprise of your doe fighting your buck over her huge litter.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

Somehow here, it seems that I am turning into the bad guy. I am NOT a breeder and I did NOT want more rats. I was quite perfectly happy with my single Tuffy, but everything on here said rats did better with a friend. Fearing fighting and aggression my inexperience couldn't handle, I obtained a rat I was assured was another male. If you go back to my "meet my rat" post, that was number one on the list, above color, personality, ears, anything.

To my knowledge, there are no rescues near me. I have googled everything I could think of to come up with rat rescues, rat breeders, petfinders, to no avail. I did the next best thing in my mind. I went to a feeder bin and adopted rats who were destined to be reptile food. There is no doubt about it. Both of my rats would already be snake poop if I hadn't taken them home. I did not buy from a pet retailer. This store specializes in reptiles and carries rats as feeders only.

Taffy has been removed from Tuffy, and placed in a nursery aquarium that babies can't possibly get out of. Just today, I spoke with a lady who raises hairless dumbo rats. She very kindly offered to trade me Taffy for a guaranteed male. She apparently doesn't raise regular eared rats, but has an old female that could use a friend. She also is more experienced in sexing rats, and raising babies if Taffy does happen to be bred. I am considering it. While the dumbo's are cute, the nekkid ones sort of weird me out, and the babies are only 5 weeks old, which concerns me since Tuffy is so obviously mature. Plus, Taffy just has the best personality.

So, since the biggest remark everyone had was to separate them, and that has been done, is there anything else I should be doing special?


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

Start giving lots of protien, like scrambled egg, and watch and wait. I'm glad to hear they were separated.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

I went to see the lady with the dumbo babies today. I was impressed with her knowledge, and the friendliness of her rats. She very obviously cares a great deal about them. 

She has agreed to trade me Taffy and the 10g nursery aquarium I have her in, for two of her baby dumbo males. And yes, even I could tell they were male. One is a black, haired dumbo who stole my heart the moment I held him. He was such a snuggle bug and very relaxed. The other is the wickedest marked hairless dumbo I've ever seen. He is black and white, and has jagged lightening marks all over.

I am confident that Taffy and her babies will have the best of care, and will never be sold as snake food. That was really my deciding factor, as I never wanted babies in the first place, and simply don't want a cage for males and a cage for females. Letting her go will be hard, but I know that she will be going to a great home who can probably care for her babies if not better, at least more knowledgeably than I can.


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

It's good that she will have a home who will be able to handle her babies. They really do have very obvious goolies, not at all like mice, who can sort of hide them.

We would love pictures of the new babies, and make absolutely sure you quarantine!


----------



## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

Or e-spay "her" and not have a litter. Why don't you post pictures and listen to the experienced people here? It sounds like someone wanting advice and only replies with the "buts" in order to need to be right.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

I have no idea what you mean by e-spay her, and if she's already pregnant I certainly would not do so until after the babies were born anyway!

She has been removed from Tuffy and given her own cage. There is no need to post pictures, as I am now certain, after seeing some very young tho very well developed babies at the breeders home, that she is a female. I am also fairly certain she is already pregnant, thru no fault of my own except ignorance.

I have, indeed, been listening to what little advice I have been given on here. My original questions had to do with gestation time, normal sized litter numbers, the need for certain foods, medications to have on hand, and what a newbie to rat keeping should expect. With only a few exceptions, nearly everyone has been less than helpful, and only jumped on the bandwagon to insist that she is removed immediately from the males cage, which has been done.

If my questions and ignorance come across as the "need to be right" then I apologize for my stupidity. I felt I had very real reasons for not wanting to remove her immediately from Tuffy's cage. Thanks to a half hour with an actual breeder, who I only found a few days ago, I now have a new understanding of some of the why's and hows.

Also, apparently, you did not read my last post which stated that I had agreed to trade her to that breeder who knew much more about baby rat care than I, and who would take care of her and her babies. I never wanted a female rat. I never wanted baby rats. I counted on someone who should have been able to tell that Taffy was female and obviously both of us made mistakes.

To those of you who provided helpful answers and experience without criticism, I thank you. For the rest, and especially ratjes, I am done with this thread.


----------



## A.ngelF.eathers (Jul 6, 2011)

In the defense of ratjes, and at the risk of fanning a pointless flame, you were asked for pictures at the beginning of this thread. Instead of saying you would separate them or posting pictures so we could give you a definitive answer on gender, you kept giving counterpoints, repeating the same thing. 
And now there's a high possibility that over twelve new rats are going to be born, or the rat's going to a place where she'll just be a brood mare, so to speak.

But what's done is done.


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

In spite of the annoyance this thread caused me, I have decided to come back and update it, for the education of anyone else who may have some of the same questions I had regarding an accidental litter.

I was unable to part with Taffy, even tho I believed, and still believe, the lady who offered to take her was sincere and honest that she would be well taken care of and not used as a "brood mare." She gave birth to 7 babies during the day. I don't know if this is normal, but I was somewhat surprised to come home from work and find them. They were all of a uniform size and appeared to be eating well. I did not handle them for the first 24 hours. Taffy did a wonderful job of cleaning both the babies and the cage of any mess that might have been made. She made a "nest" of sorts, piling up the bedding around her chosen circle, with all of the sides higher than the middle, so the babies couldn't possibly crawl away. (As a side note, the birth of the babies was shortly after removing Taffy from Tuffy's cage....i.e. she was already pregnant when I began this thread, so even had I removed her the very first day I posted, it would have already been too late.)

After 24 hours I removed Taffy from the babies and checked them over. All had a milk band and were moving around and making squeeking noises. Separating them for only a few minutes, Taffy seemed to have no problem with me handling the babies. For the first week, she was on top of them almost constantly, feeding and keeping them warm, and did a very good job of mothering.

I feed a mix of all types of food, including rat blocks, but also various seeds, cereals, nuts, and dried fruits like raisings and bananas, with treats of fresh apples, peas, or carrots. With the exception of an increased need to drink (to be expected), her food intake seemed to be about the same. Her absolute favorite food is sunflower seeds, then the rat blocks, and the dried fruit. Her coat never dulled, and she never appeared sunken, tired or hungry. The baby rats grew at a daily rate, meaning I could see a change in them every single day.

Always removing Taffy for a short time, I handled each of the babies daily. Within 2 weeks, their "nest" area doubled in size, and they were scooting around cautiously in it. At about 2 1/2 weeks, theirs eyes and ears opened, and Taffy stopped being so concerned with rebuilding the "nest" every time I cleaned the cage. 

At 3 weeks, it was very obvious that I had 2 male and 5 female babies. I have no idea how someone who should have known (i.e. been around rats his entire life, couldn't have been absolutely positive that Taffy was a female to start with). By now, the babies were beginning to pick out their favorite solid food supplement, and drink out of the water bottle. At this point, they were moved to a wire cage with toys. Their world expanded and they never looked back. They climb the bars, run on the ropes, dig in the bedding, and absolutely love to come out and be handled. It is so funny to see 7 tummies, as they are hanging on the side of the cage waiting their turn to come out.

Taffy has never been agressive toward me, or toward the babies after I have handled them. As proof of her beautiful personality, she has always been sweet and wonderful.

At 4 weeks, 3 of the female babies went to a good friends home, where they can grow old together, be loved, played with daily, not bred, and not fed to reptiles. 
I have decided to keep the remaining four - 2 males and 2 females. The 2 females continue to live with Taffy and all appear to be the best of friends. The two males have been removed to a separate cage for fear of further unexpected litters, and are growing up together to approx 8 weeks, when I shall begin introductions between them and their daddy. I intend to have all 3 males neutered, and am currently in the proces of finding a knowledgeable vet.

I shall state it again, I was quite happy with a single rat as a pet. Did I purposely buy a female rat? No. Did I ever have any intentions of raising rat babies? No. But since it happened, I have learned a great deal about something I would never have otherwise been exposed to. Taffy is still somewhat mothering the remaining babies living with her, but I feel they will become and stay great friends, and she will never have to be alone again. With Tuffy, time will tell if he will allow his sons to become great friends. I am hopeful, and looking forward to this new experience also.


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm glad everything work out for them.


----------



## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Yay, happy ending. I couldn't have brought myself to part with Taffy either (except I probably would have gotten those two boys as well, like a fool  )


----------



## GhostMouse (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm glad everything worked out! I do have an important question for you, though...

Do you have baby pictures?!


----------



## luvabunny (Sep 10, 2011)

The first picture is of daddy (Tuffy) when he was much younger. The second is of mama (Taffy) when I first got her. The next pics are of the 5 female babies. I don't guess I have any of the 2 males loaded onto my computer yet.

To the best of my knowledge - Tuffy is a variegated blue hooded, and Taffy is a coppery brown with white socks.
Their babies were 3 coppery brown that looked just like Taffy, a solid blue berk, 2 yellow hooded and the oddest blue roan I've ever seen. (again, I know nothing about rat colorings, just trying to describe what they are like) The blue roan is blue on top, but white at his skin. He's very striking, but doesn't show up well in pictures, since you can't really see the white underneath.

These baby pictures were taken at about 3 weeks old. All of the pics were taken with my camera phone and really aren't very good at all.


----------



## Maltey (Jun 26, 2011)

Looking at these baby pics makes me want an accidental litter! They're so cute!


----------



## Susinko (Apr 29, 2008)

I am so happy that this story has a happy ending and everything worked out so well Please let us know if Daddy accepts his babies as cagemates! He must be lonely by now.


----------

