# Rattery Question- Curiosity ONLY :)



## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Now, you can all put away the flame-throwers. 8O I have no intention of raising rats or breeding anything. :lol: 

I'm asking strictly out of curiosity, because I see we have a "rattery" owner on the board- I think it's Kilas? Rattery.

How do you become a reputable breeder? Is it possible to buy lineage rats from an established breeder? What resources do you use to learn about rat genetics? 

I understand that plopping two pet-shop rats together and waiting to see what happens does not a breeder make. :roll: 

Just wondered, what goes into becoming a reputable breeder, and thought it'd make an interesting topic to discuss.

In the same vein, what do you all look for in a breeder when you go to buy a rat? How do you seperate the "backyardigans" from the "real" breeders?

Again, the disclaimer- I have _*no*_ interest personally in raising/breeding rats. I'm only curious, now that I'm in process of possibly taking in two gorgeous squish boys from a rescue. 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

double post - mods delete?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Just for the fun of name-dropping, I know quite a few US breeders. I know Dan of Tekka Makai Rattery, Dee of Odyssey Design Rattery, Melina of DazzleMe Rattery, Sorrai of Black Wolf Rattery, etc. I have asked a ton of questions and actually this question was a topic for one of our NIRO (Northern Illinois Rat Org I believe) Rat Chats.

Someone who wants to be a reputable breeder has to find a mentor first and foremost. You have to be comfortable with their ethics and they have to like you and yours. Both parties should ask a lot of questions. Once its decided that the established breeder will mentor you, then they start to work with you...you had better have researched a lot on genetics before you even approach a good breeder to be mentored.
I am not exactly sure how the mentorship goes, but if you are local, sometimes you will foster a pregnant momma and go thru the birth and rearing of the pups for the breeder. But there is long-distance mentoring as well. Locals often get their first breeding pair from the breeder, but they would help you find other suitable rats if you weren't nearby. Before you breed your first litter, it could take a year or more before your mentor decides you are ready.
A good breeder knows her/his rattery's reputation is on the line so will not sell breeding stock to just nyone. They want to know that the person is either already established or will continue the line and try to better it as well.

A good breeder/rattery is always trying to improve the line they are working with, health and temperament first, then conformation and finally colour/patterns. They will carefully consider all aspects of a pairing (for eg. the buck's ears are not very good, but the doe has excellent ears and her family all have excellent ears, so this should improve on the pups.
They should know the background/parentage of their breeding rats a minimum of 3 generations back, should know their health, temperament, any illnesses and how they died. Not all but a LOT of good breeders are members of NARR (North American Rat Registry) which is a database for all the registered rats. With NARR as a tool, you can see how a breeder works, if they are really tracking all the information. Breeders should track all pups (pet and breeding contract rats) for their entire lifetime for illnesses, temperament problems, and causes of death. If one very pretty line has a whole pile of siblings who develop tumours at an early age, then they should probably decide to end the line.

I use websites first and foremost to let me know about a rattery. Red Flags are No pedigrees on the site (some breeders you have to ask for, but most of these are already respected and established breeders).
Or Pedigrees with "unknown's" in the first few generations (unknown genetics, usually petstore rats), a breeder who doesn't know the colours or patterns/types of their rats. NO mention of temperament or health, pics of inadequate cages for their rattery. Too many litters produced at once or over a year (how can that many litters be properly socialized by the breeder), I even go so far as to research the ratteries they use in the pedigrees and see what they are like as well. Too many litters with a female, when 2 max is the most they should have.

I do not believe petstore rats should be used as outcrosses when there are so many established lines of rats out there now, why start from scratch and add in a possible genetic timebomb?

All this from a woman who will never ever have a breeder rat, as there are no really good breeders in my area, plus the rescues need me. :lol:


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Lil, that's interesting. I had no idea breeders would do a mentorship! I wonder how you'd find out about something like that?

Wow, I knew a lot went into serious breeding, but that's intense. Guess I'm glad there are people willing to go to that much trouble. It's nice to know there are people who care enough to do things the right way for the animals.

I'm excited to see Tom and Huck possibly coming home with us. And we may do some fostering as well. (because I don't have enough to do) :lol: 

Ah well, as long as we're careful to not get in over our heads. 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Marysmuse said:


> Now, you can all put away the flame-throwers. 8O I have no intention of raising rats or breeding anything. :lol:
> 
> I'm asking strictly out of curiosity, because I see we have a "rattery" owner on the board- I think it's Kilas? Rattery.
> 
> ...


If there is any more questions I can answer for you, feel free to ask and I will answer them to the best of my knowledge and ability.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Just for the fun of name-dropping, I know quite a few US breeders. I know Dan of Tekka Makai Rattery, Dee of Odyssey Design Rattery, Melina of DazzleMe Rattery, Sorrai of Black Wolf Rattery, etc. I have asked a ton of questions and actually this question was a topic for one of our NIRO (Northern Illinois Rat Org I believe) Rat Chats.
> 
> Someone who wants to be a reputable breeder has to find a mentor first and foremost. You have to be comfortable with their ethics and they have to like you and yours. Both parties should ask a lot of questions. Once its decided that the established breeder will mentor you, then they start to work with you...you had better have researched a lot on genetics before you even approach a good breeder to be mentored.
> I am not exactly sure how the mentorship goes, but if you are local, sometimes you will foster a pregnant momma and go thru the birth and rearing of the pups for the breeder. But there is long-distance mentoring as well. Locals often get their first breeding pair from the breeder, but they would help you find other suitable rats if you weren't nearby. Before you breed your first litter, it could take a year or more before your mentor decides you are ready.
> ...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Kilas, some breeders will only breed a female once. TEK did it that way unless the cross was exceptional and the mom was extremely healthy, then he might do 2. There should be a gap of 3-4 months between litters...so say you breed a ratgirl at 6 months, you shouldn't breed her until a minimum of 10 months of age , then the next litter would be at 14 months old? That's too old for a 3rd litter if you ask me.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

What do you mean by "cull"? Kill off the ones which don't meet standards? 8O Yeeps. I should think it would be better to adopt the "pet quality" ones out, and keep the better quality rats to breed... at least that's how it's done with cavies, from what I'm told.

I'm just curious, no intention of breeding or starting a rattery. I have my hands full enough with the cavies, and we're not breeding them, either.

Are there organizations which oversee ratteries? Aside from the usual SPCA and Humane Society, I mean.

How about this NARR? I had no idea there were established guidelines for things like conformation. Very cool. 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

a rattery registers with NARR and gets a prefix for their rattery...

Here is Melina's website...you will see her prefix DAZL
But also you will see SGR on some of the rats names...its a rattery she works with called..
Sweet Genes Rattery.
and FSTR is FarStar Rattery
and TEK is Tekka Makai
and AZUR is Azure Ridge Rattery

I actually joined NARR and can follow lines and health and relatives and the breeders...

I'll see if I can get you an example of what its like later on...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

culling can be adopting out the babies or it can be killing pups. Its sometimes done with bigger litters, but when rats are culled and not tracked you won't know the proper health and temperament of the lines. Say Pups 1-5 were culled and all would have died of a horrible invasive cancer. Only one of the remaining 7 had it and was considered an anomaly rather than one of many that should end a line fast. See what I mean?


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> Kilas, some breeders will only breed a female once. TEK did it that way unless the cross was exceptional and the mom was extremely healthy, then he might do 2. There should be a gap of 3-4 months between litters...so say you breed a ratgirl at 6 months, you shouldn't breed her until a minimum of 10 months of age , then the next litter would be at 14 months old? That's too old for a 3rd litter if you ask me.


What I have been taught by some breeders is that you can wait no less than 1 month after the litter is weaned to breed the female again, But I wait about 2-3 months after a litter is a weaned and I only plan to breed up to 6 litters a year. 

And I also know of someone who only breeds a female once just so her pedigrees are long. Lame excuse if you ask me but I won't say who it is.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Marysmuse said:


> What do you mean by "cull"? Kill off the ones which don't meet standards? 8O Yeeps. I should think it would be better to adopt the "pet quality" ones out, and keep the better quality rats to breed... at least that's how it's done with cavies, from what I'm told.
> 
> I'm just curious, no intention of breeding or starting a rattery. I have my hands full enough with the cavies, and we're not breeding them, either.
> 
> ...


Culling usually means to kill or get rid of. But I looked up the definition and this is what I found:
1. To pick out from others; select.
2. To gather; collect.
3. To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).
Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

kilas_rattery said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > Kilas, some breeders will only breed a female once. TEK did it that way unless the cross was exceptional and the mom was extremely healthy, then he might do 2. There should be a gap of 3-4 months between litters...so say you breed a ratgirl at 6 months, you shouldn't breed her until a minimum of 10 months of age , then the next litter would be at 14 months old? That's too old for a 3rd litter if you ask me.
> ...


My ooops momma didn't recover from her litter for a few months after, those poor mommas are being worn out.

What do you mean so her pedigree is long? Usually the best of the daughters should continue the line.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

lilspaz68 said:


> kilas_rattery said:
> 
> 
> > lilspaz68 said:
> ...


 She will only breed a female once, keep a female offspring and breed her only once too so the pedigrees are longer, it's a lame excuse IMO


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

> I'm asking strictly out of curiosity, because I see we have a "rattery" owner on the board- I think it's Kilas? Rattery.


There are a few breeders on this board. I am a breeder, Black Wolf Rattery.



> How do you become a reputable breeder?


"Reputable" refers to your reputation. This of course has some to do with who and what you are as a breeder, but "reputable" comes from the word "repute" which has to do with "reputation". In otherwise, "reputable" has to do with how others view.

Now how will others view you? That depends on what you do as a breeder. You can have a bad reputation as a breeder, such breeders are said to be "disreputable". You may have a very good reputation as a breeder, these breeders are said to be "reputable". Your ethics and responsibility have a great deal to do with your "reputability". 

Currently I am actually working on an article about this exact topic. Included in the article is a list of "red flags" to look for when selecting a breeder. These are characters and actions you need to watch out for. I will post the list in a second reply (the list is QUITE long, a post in and of itself!). A few of the big ones include how many litters and how often a breeder breeds, how they keep their records, how established their lines are, their general care and upkeep of their animals, if they breed other species, how they deal with all the offspring, and how they select the homes for their babies.



> Is it possible to buy lineage rats from an established breeder?


In an ideal world ALL rats from a breeder have a lineage on paper that is well recorded. In reality this is not the case. A GOOD breeder will have a LONG pedigree that doesn't merely list names and colors, but can give you detailed records of the rat, including birth dates, death dates, and health concerns during the rats life. Other notes or comments might be particulars of the rat's temperament (maybe its temperament was that of a lap rat!), and even of relatives not on the pedigree itself (such as siblings, aunts, uncles, etc). ALL of these details are important to having GOOD lines, and these records are important for GOOD breeders to track. A so-so or bad breeder won't have these details. Their rats may have a lineage, but this lineage will be worth as much as the paper it is printed on if all it has is names and colors. 

Another thing to keep in mind - not all breeders will place rats and give out the pedigree. This does not necessarily mean the breeder is bad, they are just selective of who gets that vital record. However, even those breeders should be willing to go over the pedigree with ALL adopters. I personally choose not to hand out pedigrees with my rats. Unfortunately there are too many people in my area who are sleazy, and although I am very careful about where my rats find homes, scam artists can be surprisingly sneaky. However, I am MORE than happy to show the pedigrees to any one who asks, and go over what is in the pedigree. I am more than happy to share all the information I have about related rats not on the pedigree. And all of my rats are registered with NARR, which can be accessed by other members. 



> What resources do you use to learn about rat genetics?


The best ways to learn about genetics is to talk to those who are "in the know". There are websites and books available, but those can be tricky. Some of these contain outdated information. This information may still be "good", but terms may have changed, which can be confusing (especially for those who are just learning genetics). Many websites are produced by private people and may contain errors. Also, different countries will use different terms for different colors. For example, in the US a ruby-eye diluted agouti rat is called "fawn" while in the UK the same color is called "topaz". Even genetic codes can vary between countries. An example of that is in the US "blue" is designated with "g" while Russian blue is designated with "d". In the UK, "blue" is designated with "d" while Russian blue is designated with "rb". This can be VERY confusing if you aren't aware of these differences!



> I understand that plopping two pet-shop rats together and waiting to see what happens does not a breeder make.


Technically ANYONE who puts two animals together to produces babies is a breeder. This includes the person who has been in the hobby for fifty years and has pedigrees that are hundreds of generations long and knows every inch of history of each and every single one of those rats. This also includes the neighborhood 8 year old kid who brought home a male and female feeder rat and let them "play" together. The difference between these two is that one is a GOOD, responsible, reputable, and ethical breeder. The other is not.



> In the same vein, what do you all look for in a breeder when you go to buy a rat? How do you seperate the "backyardigans" from the "real" breeders?


I use the "red flags" a lot. When I look for a breeder I am going to deal with, I want someone who first of all knows what they are doing. They know about the proper care of rats, and they know about what extra care breeding rats requires. I want someone who is ethical, either who shares my own ethics or whose ethics I can agree with. I want someone who knows their animals, and the history behind their animals. I want someone who also works with other breeders whom I can respect and whose ethics I agree with. I want someone who will share with me what they know. I want someone who is specializing with their variety, not someone who breeds everything under the sun, or only what is popular. 



> What do you mean by "cull"?


Culling in its simplest of forms is simply "separating the 'undesired' from the 'desired'". This SHOULD be practiced by ALL breeders. Every animal produced is not going to be breeding quality. Those animals that are not breeding quality should be separated from those that are. In dogs and cats this is done by neutering and spaying and pet-placing the non-breeding or "undesired" (as in "undesired" for the breeding program, this has NOTHING to do with the actual worth or want of the animal) animals. In rats this is usually done by pet-placing the non-breeding animals. A breeder who keeps non-breeding animals will "cull" those by simply not breeding them.

However, there are some breeders who "cull" their animals by killing them. These breeders do so for a variety of reasons: they don't want to deal with pet-placing those animals, they think it's healthier for the mom to have a smaller litter, they think the remaining babies will grow bigger faster and be more suitable for showing at a younger age, and who knows what else. This is NOT an acceptable practice. It removes very valuable information from the breeding program. You don't know what would have happened to those killed offspring. They may have lived long healthy lives until five years of age and then simply passed because their bodies stopped working due to that age. They may have died at five months of age from horrible cancers. You simply do not know. A breeder who kills babies is NOT a responsible or ethical breeder. Such a breeder CANNOT say they know their lines, because simply they do not, they have lost much data in killing.



> Are there organizations which oversee ratteries?


Unfortunately there are no organizations that oversee all ratteries. There are some who try, but their efforts work only so far as those ratteries that are members of the organization. There is no governing body that says "these are responsible, reputable, an ethical breeders and these are not." The adopter is left to figure that out. They can use different organizations as a guide, but should still take the time and effort to figure it out on their own.



> How about this NARR? I had no idea there were established guidelines for things like conformation.


The NARR is the "North American Rat Registry". It is an organization for registering rats. ANY rattery is allowed to join, and ANY rat can be registered. This is not a governing body, nor should it be used as a standard for who is or is not a reputable, responsible, and ethical breeder. It CAN be a very good resource though.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Red Flags:
1)	Breeder has â€œtoo manyâ€ animals.
2)	Breeder always has litters available or breeds multiple litters at a time.
3)	Breeder fosters out half their litters in order to breed more.
4)	Breeder produces litters he/she has no intention of keeping babies from or â€œjust to have a litterâ€.
5)	Breeder breeds for adopters, to meet a demand, or make a profit.
6)	Breeder breeds immature animals often.
7)	Breeder weans babies at less than four weeks of age.
8 )	Breeder kills (culls) babies for reasons other than as a last resort for an untreatable or incurable disease or injury.
9)	Breeder does not keep track of the health and temperament of their lines. Breeder expects adopters to make special effort to keep in touch. 
10)	Breeder claims their lines are free of all health problems or defects. 
11)	Breederâ€™s only goals are focused on only one of the following: health, temperament, type, or color.
12)	Breeder does not use proper standardized names for the varieties in their rattery. 
13)	Breeder charges more for popular varieties.
14)	Breeder breeds wild rats or â€œhybridsâ€. 
15)	Breederâ€™s pedigree only offers names and colors of the ratâ€™s ancestors. Breeder cannot share more in-depth knowledge of those rats.
16)	Breeder provides minimal care or skips on important factors of care.
17)	Breeder does not have a working relationship with a vet or avoids taking seriously ill or injured animals to the vet. 
18 )	Breeder knowingly sells sick or injured animals.
19)	Breeder does not observe proper quarantine. 
20)	Breeder is willing to ship by illegal means.
21)	Breeder sells to pet stores or pet expos, or provides rats as reptile food.
22)	Breeder will not take back animals they have produced.
23)	Breeder asks for donations to keep their rattery running.
24)	Breeder does not have an involved adoption procedure or detailed adoption agreement.
25)	Breeder also breeds another species. 

The following are "flags" that some may view as a red flag, but are not necessarily "red flags". 
1) Breeder does not allow visitors into the rattery.
2) Breeder charges an adoption fee.
3) Breeder uses inbreeding or linebreeding as tools. 
4) Breeder admits there are health problems in the line.
5) Breeder specializes in one or two varieties only.
6) Breeder also breeds another species.
7) Breeder has â€œquarantine homesâ€ set up. 
8 ) Breeder shows their animals.
9) Breeder is a member of one or several clubs.
10) Breeder makes a special effort to keep in touch with adopters.
11) Breeder specializes in unstandardized varieties, but is not making up names for standardized varieties. 
12) Breeder has a combined goal for bettering health, temperament, type, and color. 
13) Breeder weans babies at five weeks of age.
14) Breeder has an involved adoption procedure that requires the adopter to answer detailed questions, and requires the adopter to provide home address and phone number.
15) Breederâ€™s pedigrees offer names and colors, but breeder is also able to provide detailed information about the rats on the pedigree.

I will be happy to explain my view on any of the above for anyone who has questions.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

kilas_rattery said:


> What I have been taught by some breeders is that you can wait no less than 1 month after the litter is weaned to breed the female again, But I wait about 2-3 months after a litter is a weaned and I only plan to breed up to 6 litters a year.


It is not advisable to breed a female less than a month after she has weaned her previous litter. As a matter of fact, all the ethical, responsible, and reputable breeders I trust advise that one wait three months after the previous litter was weaned before breeding that female again.

Biologically a female can have back to back to back to back litters. Is this the right thing to do? Absolutely not. Just because it can be done, does not make it right, nor good to do.

Also, many breeders don't even breed females for a second time. Not because they can't, but because there is no reason to. If a breeder is doing his/her job, then the offspring will be better than the parents. If the offspring are better, why bother breeding the parents again? You will make more progress by breeding the offspring. A breeder might choose to breed a particular female again if her first litter was spectacular, or she has a particular trait that is hard to come by and worth breeding her again to reproduce it or pass it on. 



> And I also know of someone who only breeds a female once just so her pedigrees are long. Lame excuse if you ask me but I won't say who it is.


Are you sure that's the only reason this person breeds their females once, and there isn't more behind the story? As I outlined above, if the offspring are better than the parent, there is really no need to breed the parent again. 

Personally, I usually breed my females only once. It isn't because I want to make my pedigrees longer, it's because I am trying to actually move forward. When I breed a rat, it's to improve on that rat in the next generation. If I have failed to the point where I need to breed that rat again, there's no point, I may as well just be making more rats. However, if I have succeeded, why would I breed that rat again? Doing so may not get me the same results, they may not be the same improvement as the first litter. Plus, breeding that female a second time will give me even more babies to choose from, and even more rats to care for (especially because I am one of those breeders who makes it a point to keep something from every litter, if for no other reason than to simply monitor the rats I have produced). Since it is not my goal to produce more animals, but rather better animals, I choose to work with what I have produced, rather than taking steps backwards and breed the parents again.


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## Marysmuse (Apr 28, 2008)

Wow, Sorroria, I had no idea it was so involved. The genetics alone would be enough to discourage me, as a mildly-interested rat lover. You have to be dedicated to study that deeply. I can see how doing the temperment, coloration so on pedigrees makes sense, but obviously without the genetics knowlege, results would be hit and miss.

How do you rate conformation in rats? In horses, we looked for strong shoulders and hips, proper curve of the neck, head carriage, hock angles, things like that. Is there a "breed standard" to look for when judging conformation? 

Rejoicing in the day,
-Mary


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Mary, there is definitely ideal conformation with rats, but I will let her take that ...and you should bug Sorraia to talk about her Arab gelding...he's gorgeous!


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## Hallie-Mae (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm really insanely inexperienced when it comes to this side of the rat fancy, so it's probably in your best interest to ignore this post :lol:

I don't think there's actually a specific conformation when it comes to rats - so long as the rat isn't visibly faulty in the physical sense then I think it's okay 8O ?
I'm pretty sure it's all down to their coats and markings :? But don't take my word for that. But obviously if we're talking about varieties that are physically different, such as tailess rats and dumbos, then there most likely is a standard.

Here's a page for the marking/colouring standards if any inexperienced lurkers (from what I can tell everyone on this board is crazily educated) are interested: 
http://www.nfrs.org/NFRS_Standards_of_Excellence.pdf


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I know a few things considered faults to do with conformation that affects health.

Narrow heads mean possible sinus problems, badly shaped hips/pelvis could lead to spinal nerve degeneration, etc

You will often see breeders preferring a big wide head...this is probably one of the reasons.


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## Hallie-Mae (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow, thanks for that  
Like I say I'm really uneducated on this side of rats so most of the time I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm trying to learn the ways of genetics and stuff, just for education purposes - I have no intentions to breed when there's so many rats in rescue centers etc.

That's interesting though, about narrow heads and badly shaped pelvises.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Sorraia said:


> kilas_rattery said:
> 
> 
> > What I have been taught by some breeders is that you can wait no less than 1 month after the litter is weaned to breed the female again, But I wait about 2-3 months after a litter is a weaned and I only plan to breed up to 6 litters a year.
> ...


That is the only reason she gave me... 

But thank you for clarifying this for me.. I guess I picked some unsavory people to be mentored by years ago. Well, now I know better and will chance my practice up a little bit.

One question though, what about breeding a female for her first time at age 12 months... What are your opinions on that? May I ask...


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Hallie-Mae said:


> Wow, thanks for that
> Like I say I'm really uneducated on this side of rats so most of the time I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm trying to learn the ways of genetics and stuff, just for education purposes - I have no intentions to breed when there's so many rats in rescue centers etc.
> 
> That's interesting though, about narrow heads and badly shaped pelvises.


Here's a website that has helped me out from time to time on rat genetics:
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/7989/rats/genetics.html


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## Hallie-Mae (Jul 31, 2008)

Thank you  !


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Marysmuse said:


> How do you rate conformation in rats? In horses, we looked for strong shoulders and hips, proper curve of the neck, head carriage, hock angles, things like that. Is there a "breed standard" to look for when judging conformation?





Hallie-Mae said:


> I don't think there's actually a specific conformation when it comes to rats - so long as the rat isn't visibly faulty in the physical sense then I think it's okay


There absolutely are standards for the conformation (commonly called "type") of the rat. It goes beyond color and markings, and has to do with how the animal is put together, as well as its proportions.

Just in the most basic sense of standards, you want a rat that is well proportioned. You don't want a proportionately long head, nor a proportionately short tail. What exactly this means IS more specific, of course, but that's in the simplest of terms. 

In general, larger rats are favored over smaller rats. This doesn't just mean overall size, but the bone density of the animal as well. Very few clubs actually give measurements in their standards, but rats whose body length is between 8 and 12 inches are generally favored (larger is considered better, but rarely do you see a rat whose body is greater than 12 inches!). That rat should have a good solid build - not fat, but muscular. Their bone density should be good. To compare rats to horses, a rat who has the bone of a cob-type would be preferred over one with the bone type of a halter-bred Arabian. You want something solid, not small, "stringy" or "tooth-pick". 

The head should not be "too long" nor "too narrow". These are very relative terms of course! It is said that the "ideal" head is the shape of an equilateral triangle when viewed from above. In other words, the space between the rat's ears should be the same length as the space from the nose to the ears, creating a triangle with three equal-length sides. This rat should not have a face that looks like a hamster though, that would be too short. There's this "just right" look in between "collie" and "bulldog" (think of what the head of a collie looks like compared to the head of a bulldog). Most rats tend to have a longer head, though there have been a few that had shorter-than-ideal heads.

Ears should be large, round and open. They should not be creased, wrinkled, or folded. This applies to both dumbos and standards. The difference between the two is that dumbos should be rounder and appear larger and more open. This gives the appearance of ears being down on the side of the head, as opposed to up on top of the head. Eyes should also be large, round, and bright. Tails should be wide at the base and taper to a point. They should be round their entire length. Tail length should be equal to that of the body length.

Overall, the body type of the rat should appear smooth and racey. When viewed from the side, a rat should flow smoothly and evenly from the head, across the back, over the loins, and down the tail. This line should not fall steeply down the high point of the back (just before the pelvis), nor should the rat have a "square" or "cobby" appearance when viewed this way. 

Here are a couple outlines of conformation standards for different clubs. They are mostly the same, the main differences are the extent of detail.
AFRMA - (scroll to bottom) http://www.afrma.org/fancyrm.htm
NIRO -http://www.niro-usa.org/standards.htm
RSA - http://www.ratsocietyofamerica.org/standards.html
NFRS - http://www.nfrs.org/varieties.html


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

kilas_rattery said:


> One question though, what about breeding a female for her first time at age 12 months... What are your opinions on that? May I ask...


In general it is advised to breed a female before the age of 12 months. Those reputable, responsible, and ethical breeders I work with and respect general breed their females for the first time around 6 to 8 months of age.

In my own person opinion - I prefer to avoid waiting that long, unless I knew the line WELL ENOUGH to know that it can be done safely. The concern isn't pelvic fusing (a myth), but actually hormones. The older an animal is, the less efficiently its body works. A mammal requires certain hormones and concentrations in order to get pregnant. It requires other hormones and concentrations to stay pregnant to term. It requires another set and concentration to give birth, and yet another set to nurse its young. An older animal may still be able to produce the necessary hormones to give birth, but the concentrations may not be quite right. This can result in premature or late labor. It may result in a long and difficult labor. Or labor may end too soon before the babies are even born. All of the above can pose serious health concerns and threats to both the mother and the babies. An older body also does not bounce back as quickly. A female rat might safely be able to give birth for the first time at one year of age, but her body may not recover as quickly, which is a health concern in and of itself (she may not be able to take care of the babies to the best of her ability, she may be able to care for the babies but may be more susceptible to disease, etc). 

Personally, I prefer to wait until my females are at least 6 months of age before breeding them for the first time. I prefer to breed them by the time they are 8 months of age. In time, as generations provide me more information about my lines and become more "proven", I might push that age back a little at a time. I personally prefer to wait longer for a variety of reasons: space litters, lower the number of rats I am keeping at any one time (providing more resources for those rats, as well as more time for me to give to each of those rats), more time for me to evaluate the rats in question, more time for me to evaluate the lines (if I wait until each female is at least six months before breeding her, her mother will be a year of age at that time, her grandmother a year and a half, her great-grandmother two years, and so on, all of this provides me more information about the background health, longevity, and soundness of the line), and so on. Thus far my females have been excellent mothers and have been able to birth well (all of this of course coupled with proper care of the rats involved) and have had normal sized litters. I have seen no evidence of the fears of some breeders that females 6-8 months of age may not get pregnant, will have smaller litters, won't be very good mothers, etc etc.


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## kilas_rattery (Jul 25, 2008)

Sorraia said:


> kilas_rattery said:
> 
> 
> > One question though, what about breeding a female for her first time at age 12 months... What are your opinions on that? May I ask...
> ...


Awesome! I only ask because I have seen on several websites that some people wait, and actually recommend, until at least 12 months of age before the doe's first breeding. They say that by waiting that long it gives the doe enough time for the breeder evaluate her condition, health, temperament and type better. But I would never follow it and don't practice it myself, just saw here and there on a few websites. 

But I'm glad to know a little better about how far litters Should Be spaced apart. 

Another question - How long will you wait to breed a doe again if she had lost her entire litter from some unknown cause? 
I had a litter of dwarf a few years and the whole litter (3 babies total in the litter) were stillborn, I was told I could wait at least a month until I could try and breed her again for a litter of dwarfs. This was back a few years ago, right before I took my few years break from breeding and I never did breed her again, but I would like to know what you think about that sort of situation.. Would even consider breeding the doe again if that were to happen? and if you would, how long would you wait? 

I'm not trying to put you on trial or anything, I would just like another breeder's opinion and you seem to have very good practices so I would rather follow your words than the people I have been listening to.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

kilas_rattery said:


> Awesome! I only ask because I have seen on several websites that some people wait, and actually recommend, until at least 12 months of age before the doe's first breeding. They say that by waiting that long it gives the doe enough time for the breeder evaluate her condition, health, temperament and type better. But I would never follow it and don't practice it myself, just saw here and there on a few websites.


Well it can be done, but the risks are potentially greater. If the breeder in question has been breeding their does for the first time at about a year of age consistently and has not had any issue, then it could be a very good thing. It does give the breeder more time to evaluate the female in question, as well as her family members, therefore the line. I have not found a lot of evidence for it, but I suspect that those animals that can be safely bred later (not TOO late, but later than may be "usual"), might be slow maturing. I suspect (and again, have not yet found a lot of evidence for this) it is possible that slower maturing animals may also live longer. If this is so, a breeder can encourage greater longevity by encouraging later maturation through waiting longer to breed. 



> Another question - How long will you wait to breed a doe again if she had lost her entire litter from some unknown cause? Would even consider breeding the doe again if that were to happen? and if you would, how long would you wait?


I would be hard-pressed to breed that doe again. Since health is a top priority, I don't want to risk the health of any of my animals, or their offspring. If a doe lost her litter, I want to know why. If there is no reason to explain it, I would rather play it safe and not breed her again, especially if I did not know the line well or this problem was known to have occurred with relatives. There are a number of reasons for litter loss - hormones, nutrition, illness, injury, luck (or lack of). It's hard to say. It could be entirely environmental, or it may be genetic. If it's genetic, it's possible to pass on the problem to the offspring, and thus perpetuate it through breedings. I would rather just play it safe. 

I did have something similar to what you described happen last year. A doe was bred for the first time (along with her sister) at about six months of age. Her sister gave birth to 13 health pups. This particular doe gave birth to 8 (if my memory serves me correctly) on the same day, six of which were stillborn or died shortly after birth. Of the two pups born alive, one died overnight. The last pup lived, but a couple days after the birth his mother dried up and could no longer nurse him. Fortunately her sister also had a litter so I was able to foster the pup. He grew up and was pet-placed. I don't know why his mother had a mostly stillborn litter, but it may have been something to do with her, or something to do with the litter itself. Since I did not know why there was an issue, I chose to retire her, and pet-place the one surviving baby.



> I'm not trying to put you on trial or anything, I would just like another breeder's opinion and you seem to have very good practices so I would rather follow your words than the people I have been listening to.


Thank you for the complement.


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