# Rat running in circles...sick or just special?



## burbles

This rat has always been a little bit off...I got both my rats from the pet store, and it seems that the special one is a bit stunted in growth. He also had a couple of weird little habits, like holding his paws and nibbling as if there was something in them, or having his mouth a full cm away from the water bottle but making drinking motions with his mouth. He always figured it out eventually, so I wasn't concerned.

Today, out of nowhere, he started doing this thing where he tilts his head sideways and his body sort of follows and he ends up going in circles continuously. I can get him to hold still briefly, but when I tried to nudge him the other direction he nipped at me.

The cage hasn't been cleaned in almost two weeks, which is a really long time for them, and it's because we ran out of bedding. I ordered some more a little while ago, should be coming in the next day or two. I don't know if the dirtier-than-normal environment caused an infection or what, but I certainly won't be caught unprepared again.

I only just found out about his behavior when I got home and all the vets are closed for the night. There are emergency vets, but I simply don't have that kind of cash. I'd be willing to go if you guys think it's absolutely critical, I can probably convince someone to lend me money, but waiting until the regular vets open in the morning is much preferred....


----------



## LightningWolf

Sounds like a pituatory tumor. It affects the Pituatory gland which controls All muscle movement. Typically it affects older rats but in younger rats (who often are born with it) they will have the same symptoms as this.

Sadly PTs are terminal, as it's in the brain. The only thing you could do is keep him comfortable and from hurting himself or put him down. Personally if he seems fine I would just make sure he doesn't hurt him self from this and if he gets to a point it affects his quality of life then put him down. I've heard a story of a rat with a PT who lived 3 years and died of something not related to the tumor at all.

The dirty conditions could cause something but I wouldn't really worry too much about that. It would have to be extremely dirty, like a long time with out cleaning, for it to do anything.


----------



## burbles

On my local vet's website, it said there's a disease common in rats called Chronic Murine Pneumonia that causes a lot of his symptoms. It's contagious, so I've separated them for the time being...

I really hope it's not a tumor! Ugh. Pet store breeders....


----------



## LightningWolf

I can't find anything on that other then the normal Pneumonia which can be contagious (though quite honestly, your guys were already exposed to it) and Zoonotics which are similar but can affect pregnant women (Fetal development). 

Even then what I've read it wouldn't cause these symptoms.

I know, it sucks. my rat Charles, who was my first rat and extremely docile, got it when he was about 20 months old and died 4 days after he started showing signs of it 
On the other hand, some rats can survive for years or months with it. But even rats from breeders and rescues can get it, since it's hard to breed against since most don't show any signs of it till very old age. Though most try to do the best they can to prevent it.


----------



## unlikelyfather

A severe respiratory illness such as pneumonia could indeed cause these symptoms. 


So, too, could the following:

pituitary tumors
stroke
neurological issues that he may have been born with -- which can deteriorate and worsen out of nowhere as he matures

Approximately how old is he, does he show any sign of stressed breathing? Put him up to your ear and listen. If you can hear anything other than a soft woosh of heartbeat and lungs, there could be a respiratory illness going on. If you don't, then I wouldn't separate him. 

The kind of pneumonia or infection that could cause these symptoms (tilting head, impaired motor skills, etc) _IS _contagious, but it's also advanced. The symptoms don't show up in animals fighting off mild cases. Ergo, unless your hearing is damaged - there should be an audible noise to his breath, there should be rusty red discoloration around his eyes and nose.

If these are not present, it's probably not a respiratory issue and separating them can stress them both out which can cause illnesses.

Also, for the record, "Chronic Murine Pneumonia" is just pneumonia. The first two words only mean that - with rodents, rats especially - it becomes chronic. Which means that you can battle away the symptoms, but they'll eventually become stronger than the medicine you're using and will come back. It's a big scary name for the same thing we're all talking about: pneumonia that keeps coming back, fighting antibiotics, until it progresses til where you can't fight it anymore.


----------



## burbles

I can't get close to him atm. When I picked him up last he was biting me (more in panic than anything). And now he's finally run himself to exhaustion and is sleeping so I'd like not to disturb him. He did look like he was taking larger breaths than usual though.

The rats are about 6 months old.

I'll guess we'll see in the morning when I take him to the vet. I'll post back here for anyone who's interested.


----------



## lilspaz68

How old is your rat? My guess is he's got inner ear infection (head tilt and circling are classic symptoms). They are dizzy and nauseous and in pain from it so he's really not feeling well. It is usually very curable. Its possible your boy has had a low grade infection for some time but its flared up into a nasty infection right now.

He needs a vet, the very least he'll need is baytril, not just ear drops, and also hopefully either a steroid (to reduce the inflammation) or a pain medication called metacam (meloxican) which is an anti-inflammatory as well as pain relief).

As for cage cleaning, there's so many things you can use as temp bedding...for eg., fleece, newspaper, paper towel, etc...no excuse not to clean it for that long. Next time just ask. Also are you freezing your paper or wood-based beddings for 48 hours? This kills off any stowaway ticks and lice that might be in it.


----------



## burbles

So I took him to the vet. This vet was more than a little condescending towards me (perhaps because I was dressed in my most hobo-esque outfit), and he clearly did not think a rat was worth time or money. "If he dies, it's cheap to replace him with a new rat." Um, holy ****, doesn't being a vet involve respecting all life?

Anyway, he said that it's neurological. Could be a tumor, could be something he's born with. Either way, he can't do anything, just gave him a shot to reduce inflammation. He also showed me that Penber's jaw is misaligned, and so his teeth miss each other and were way overgrown, which I never even noticed. He clipped Penber's teeth, but it makes me wonder if the reason he's a bony runt is because he couldn't eat properly. I saw him eating the treats I gave him frequently, so I never thought he had an eating problem.

This dumb vet was getting ready to walk away, and I had to prompt him to give me something so Penber could drink and eat, because he obviously can't drink from a water bottle and I doubt he's eating. He gave me a syringe and some hyper-nutritious gel. I got Penber to eat and drink some and gave him a bath, since he was gross with sickness and a little bloody from where he'd been biting himself. He's now running circles in the cage again and is about as content as a brain damaged rat can be. His brother Percy keeps sniffing around him and trying to make him stop spinning. I think it antagonizes him.

Lilspaz68, they're 5-6 months old. And I didn't think it was safe for them to chew on things like paper towels or newspaper, because of the ink and such. It's not like their cage is a pigsty, you know, it's just a little more poopy than usual. Bedding arrives tomorrow, and I'm going to scrub out their cage extra-well. Please don't talk to me like I'm neglecting them.


----------



## RatBreeder

I'm so sorry to hear about your lil boy  

As for that vet, I would file a complaint. He didn't even try and prove that it was neurological, so he didn't do his job properly IMO.
For example, if my son was doing what your rat is, his doc would run tests to see what is going on. This vet just wrote it off a neurological, instead of checking for other underlying problems.


----------



## lilspaz68

burbles said:


> So I took him to the vet. This vet was more than a little condescending towards me (perhaps because I was dressed in my most hobo-esque outfit), and he clearly did not think a rat was worth time or money. "If he dies, it's cheap to replace him with a new rat." Um, holy ****, doesn't being a vet involve respecting all life?
> 
> Anyway, he said that it's neurological. Could be a tumor, could be something he's born with. Either way, he can't do anything, just gave him a shot to reduce inflammation. He also showed me that Penber's jaw is misaligned, and so his teeth miss each other and were way overgrown, which I never even noticed. He clipped Penber's teeth, but it makes me wonder if the reason he's a bony runt is because he couldn't eat properly. I saw him eating the treats I gave him frequently, so I never thought he had an eating problem.
> 
> This dumb vet was getting ready to walk away, and I had to prompt him to give me something so Penber could drink and eat, because he obviously can't drink from a water bottle and I doubt he's eating. He gave me a syringe and some hyper-nutritious gel. I got Penber to eat and drink some and gave him a bath, since he was gross with sickness and a little bloody from where he'd been biting himself. He's now running circles in the cage again and is about as content as a brain damaged rat can be. His brother Percy keeps sniffing around him and trying to make him stop spinning. I think it antagonizes him.
> 
> Lilspaz68, they're 5-6 months old. And I didn't think it was safe for them to chew on things like paper towels or newspaper, because of the ink and such. It's not like their cage is a pigsty, you know, it's just a little more poopy than usual. Bedding arrives tomorrow, and I'm going to scrub out their cage extra-well. Please don't talk to me like I'm neglecting them.


Not saying you are neglecting them, if I did you would know LOL. You're doing fine, but next time ask, there's so many things that are in other ratowners heads that can benefit us all, and asking often brings them out 

Yeah your vet is not a wonderful person. 

Are you able to take a video of him and post it so we can see the behaviour? Biting himself and acting sick is not a good thing  If hes got an infection and didn't get antibiotics he's only going to get worse  Hopefully its something different but its hard to tell from someone's description.


----------



## unlikelyfather

For all intents and purposes, it could be neurological... but unless your vet has ruled out every other health issue, then it's worrisome. For him to sort of flippantly say that it "could be a tumor" and not do anything about it (such as scan to see if it is one) is dodgy. I know you probably spent quite a bit more money at the vet than you really wanted to, so I can imagine you're not keen to spend more money in looking up a second vet immediately.

My suggestion is look around for a second vet, save up money knowing that you may need to make the trip, and keep a very close eye on him. If it appears to get worse, you're going to need to bring him to a second vet that knows what they're doing with rats. Check the list of vets in the sticky at the top of the Health sub-forum or ask around, someone here in your general area may have an idea of a vet that's a little more knowledgeable.


----------



## RatBreeder

I don't know what part of VA you're in, but I'm in the Virginia Beach - Norfolk area and I don't know of any vets around here that'll see a rat :/


----------



## BlackCat99

He sounds a lot like our boy Monroe, Poor boy has a permanent head tilt but all he had was a pretty bad ear infection, he had his head on sideways and moved around like he was really drunk (going in circles falling over a lot) We ended up just putting drops in his ears of GrapeFruit seed extract and now aside from the head tilt he is back to his old self. Might give that a try if you can't get him to another vet for another opinion (which I recommend, that vet sounds rather awful)


----------



## burbles

Well, the vet said that the reason he wasn't doing scans or anything was because it would cost thousands of dollars, and even if he did one and found a tumor, no one's ever removed a brain tumor from a rat.

I think I'm going to call some other vets around town and ask for advice. ie. Tell them about my vet visit and ask if they think they could do more to help Penber.

So I just went into my room to film a video of him, and he's doing way better today.
Good news:
-He peed on me, a lot. He's getting enough water!
-His circles are way slower and more hesitant, he can go in a straight line or hold still and even went the other direction once.
-He's cleaning himself again

Bad news:
-One of his eyes is now infected, as you can see in the video
-He seems really confused and unsteady

Here's the video. I couldn't get him to hold still for very long, but there's a clip in there where you can see his infected eye. It appeared out of nowhere today, it looks pretty bad. I'm not sure if there's anything a vet could do about that, but we'll see when I call other vets from around town.


----------



## RatBreeder

For some reason the video wont play for me.


----------



## burbles

I think it's still processing maybe? My guess is it'll be up within the hour.


----------



## lilspaz68

I will have to watch it at home, all videos and image sites are blocked here at work. Home in umm 4 hours


----------



## unlikelyfather

Having watched it, the way he's shaking his head makes me think it's an inner ear infection, like he has something in his brain that's off-kilter and is trying to sort it out.


----------



## LightningWolf

Yeah looks like a minor PT (He was probably born with it then) and maybe an ear infection but a PT can cause the same symptoms as well on it's own.


----------



## lilspaz68

I see a very very sick little rat. You need to find a better vet, I think your vet didn't know what do do in this poor love's case. But sending the wee one home with NO care is inexcusable.

Here's my guess from just a video. This rat has terrible inner ear infection and likely fell or hurt that eye will wobbling around. The eye ruptured causing the horrible swelling which is also now a big problem.

IF the wee one was mine, I would put on metacam (pain medication and anti-inflammatory) to see if we could make things feel a little better in the ear, and also reduce the eye, and a combo of antibiotics for the inner ear infection (doxy/baytril, clavamov/baytril, or zithro/baytril). The eye is concerning because of the swelling, its likely "dead" and best-case scenario would be for it to shrink up and "die" with no infection (happens all the time). Worst case scenario the eye needs to be removed but you need a good vet for that (been through umm 4 enucleations here?) and if that cannot be done, the rat should be humanely put to sleep 

The inner ear infection, causes some neuro symptoms but I am not seeing PT personally, I am seeing a weak, sick, wobbly girl who is bravely trying to groom while feeling absolutely wretched. Sooo can I come by and give that vet who just sent you home a wack in the head please?

IF you cannot find a good vet, PM me please and I'll see what we can figure out for your lady. For now, eating hard items are going to seriously hurt, so you can pick up baby cereal and Ensure for now and ofter it in a bowl...she'll probably go nuts licking it up.


----------



## burbles

Thank you for your advice, Lilspaz! <3 You've been super helpful through all of this.

I knew that I couldn't just wait around after I saw that eye yesterday, so I made an appointment with a different vet that I just got back from. Boy, BIG difference! This vet was more expensive, but he also cared, paid very careful attention and explained everything to me. Penber has an inner ear infection as I suspected and the eye is irritated but not ruptured. He may lose his eye, but considering that yesterday I thought he was going to die, I'm very happy! The new vet gave me antibiotics, drops for his eyes, and tons of advice on how to make sure he's eating correctly with his teeth and everything. He has to fix the teeth clipping the other vet did because he did such a bad job.

*Thank you so much to everyone who gave advice or cared.* Me and Penber appreciate it. And he's going to be okay! GAH! 

Now to go write scathing review for that crappy first vet....


----------



## Jaguar

Ack... yeah... looks like a very bad tilt to me too. It's not uncommon for the "down" eye on a tilty rat to get kind of gunky but that does look like trauma. So glad to see you've gotten a better vet and I have my fingers crossed for him. Was he given an antibiotic injection or just oral? Any pain meds or anti inflammatories? If not you can use infants Advil, post his weight here and we should be able to work out a dose for you. He will need it.


----------



## lilspaz68

burbles said:


> Thank you for your advice, Lilspaz! <3 You've been super helpful through all of this.
> 
> I knew that I couldn't just wait around after I saw that eye yesterday, so I made an appointment with a different vet that I just got back from. Boy, BIG difference! This vet was more expensive, but he also cared, paid very careful attention and explained everything to me. Penber has an inner ear infection as I suspected and the eye is irritated but not ruptured. He may lose his eye, but considering that yesterday I thought he was going to die, I'm very happy! The new vet gave me antibiotics, drops for his eyes, and tons of advice on how to make sure he's eating correctly with his teeth and everything. He has to fix the teeth clipping the other vet did because he did such a bad job.
> 
> *Thank you so much to everyone who gave advice or cared.* Me and Penber appreciate it. And he's going to be okay! GAH!
> 
> Now to go write scathing review for that crappy first vet....


Ohh what wonderful wonderful news!!! Please let us know how your sweet little Penber does????


----------



## burbles

Bad news. The worst news.

Penber died yesterday. They think it was congenital. His body temp and heart rate just dropped and dropped and they couldn't get it back up.

I really can't talk about it anymore or I'll become a mess.


----------



## unlikelyfather

I'm so sorry. Sometimes it happens. Bad breeding.


----------



## LightningWolf

I'm so sorry


----------



## lilspaz68

I am so very very sorry. I think you should be angry at vet #1, its possible the delay in not medicating him caused this. ((hugs))


----------



## JBlas

So very sorry!!!


----------

