# Immersion Diary: Quinn & Stella



## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Tuesday I picked up two new babies at PetSmart. I haven't gotten pet store rats in years and I was nervous about how they would be. 

Quinn was an adoptiom because she had an ear infection that they fixed up. She is uber sweet because she had extra attention. She is still a bit timid but much more adventurous than Stella. 

When I brought them home I played on the bed with them for an hour. It was late so I couldn't play long. Wednesday I was busy with my last day of swim team but I was able to let them out for an hour.

Now this morning, I began the real immersion. I took Stella into my walk in closet and we have been here since 8:30, it is now almost 12. I had planned to stop at 12:30 but now it seems like we need more time.

Here is a bit about Stella;

In the store she climbed onto the workers shoulder and was quite content cleaning herself there. When she was back in the tank, she was curious of me more than the others. Since then she has started nipping and has no interest in being with me.

Immersion so far:

The first thirty minutes I just stroked her as she sat scared in a corner. She pushed my hand away a little but was too scared to do much else.

As time went on she explored but ended up back in her corner when I tried to engage play. When she cleaned herself I left her be. She got to a point where she would accept treats from my hand.

After two hours I could pick her up without much writhing, and she was exploring and not being as reserved. At this point when I engaged play she would mock bite and run, or lay down and allow me to stroke her. No tummy rubs so far.

After 20 minutes of playing I was worn out so I layed down on the ground. She came over and snuffled on me and even gave my teeth a look at, not much though. 

I then got up to go to the bathroom and get a drink. When I came back she was huddled in my jacket sleeping. I let her sleep a bit before engaging play again. 

She was completely skittish again and I couldn't even pet her now. Not sure what this means. Now she is sleeping under a rug right next to me.

I will continue to give updates. I don't plan on leaving until we have established a great relationship. 

Any tips would be great! Thanks for reading


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## Grotesque (Mar 19, 2014)

Sounds like its going pretty good. Some rats just need a little more time or like to do things on their terms. You're doing great!


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Just now finally taking a break. I'm so worn out. She seems to get better and then worse as a cycle. She likes to explore but as soon as I go to pet her she darts back to her corner. I spent quite a while just having my hand stroking her gently while she was in her corner. I pick her up now and then and sometimes she squeals. 

Hopefully the fact that I won't be home tomorrow to work with her is ok.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Looks like you are doing great. I think it is ok if there is a 24h break in training here


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Rats slowly build stress over time.... They will come out and explore and play and then they will suddenly reach their stress limit and boomerang back to their corner. Last night I had our three girls at the park with us. At first Misty and Bunny hit the ground running and explored about, then Lucky joined them. After about an hour all three rats were under my shirt, well actually Misty was under some other person's shirt, but he had rats before and didn't mind... When I tried to pull the girls out from under my shirt they clawed to my shoulder and came out with my skin attached to their claws. Basically they had hit their stress limit. When we got back to the car, they jumped in and were all excited at the car door to go back into the house. They played with me and hung out with me the rest of the night.... Now there was no stress and they were exploding all over the place to burn off all of that pet up energy. 

The boomerang reaction is normal, if a bit disconcerting when you see it the first time.... As you go along your rat will get used to you and your home and boomerang back to the corner less and less frequently, until it stops happening and/or your rat will run to you when stressed.

I understand that we typically regard fear and stress as a bad thing and at some point it is.... but it's also necessary and part of learning. Think about how many people watch horror movies when their life is too boring, so to some degree we actually need and like a certain amount of stress. You are doing perfectly fine... Stella is exploring, stressing, sheltering, destressing and exploring again... which is perfectly normal. It will be nicer, when she understands that you are the safe place she should run to when stressed, try and communicate that to her if you can... But that would be the next milestone you are going for. When she stresses out and boomerangs to you, you'll pretty much have the hardest part behind you.

You are doing great... based on the fact that she's already exploring and playing with you occasionally, so she's getting the right idea but it's going to take a little bit more work and patience to overcome her fear of you.... Remember, she was in a pet shop and she may have had some bad experiences with people she's going to have to get over.

Best luck.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

We had ended after several hours and she hadn't seemed to improve much. 

This morning when I waa cleaning their food and water dish she came up and bit. It was harder than the past, didn't draw blood, but clearly not just a nip or nibble. 

I'm leaving in a few hours and I won't be home until tomorrow around noon. I plan to jump right into immersion as soon as possible.

She seems to be more afraid than anything but I'm not sure yet. Tomorrow we will see and hopefully crack her shell. I know she is a sweetie in there somewhere!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Be very patient, it is very common behavior for pet store rats unfortunately. I'm sure she will get better with time. Did you eeped when she bit/nipped you too hard?


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

She's definitely trying to tell you something with the "nip". Stay away? Don't touch? Take me out of the cage? Let's play? It's hard to tell and could be almost anything. I wouldn't go with aggression yet though. Rats have razor sharp teeth and can bite down to the bone with hardly any effort at all. If she was really trying to hurt you, she would have.

I know some folks are big on eeping, and yes rats do eep to tell another rat they are being hurt, it always struck me on the submissive side though... which isn't the message I like to send... I prefer a strong "NO BITING!" to deter a rat from trying it again. Although I'm all for communication, certain types of communication are off limits. Even in a marriage between humans where communication is important, hitting isn't allowed. People and rats have to find more appropriate ways to communicate their feelings and thoughts than biting or hitting.

This may be one of those things where two methods will both do the same thing. Whether you are in the eeping or shouting camp on this one, respond immediately and honestly and rats are most likely to understand you.

And yes, nipping is more common with rats that aren't properly socialized like many pet shop rats, but we are seeing this from lesser breeders and lower quality rescues fairly commonly too. BYB's are getting pretty good at posing as true hobby breeders and saying all of the right things more often than not lately. They come to web sites like this one and read about all of the red flags they should avoid... It turns out they can read too and it's apparently easier to say the right things than to do the right things.... This is not a criticism of real hobby breeders or good rescues who actually do work with their pups and rats to properly socialize them. Just that lately some people are starting to have trouble telling who is who because BYB are getting better at sounding legitimate. 

And lastly, sometimes well socialized rats can get nippy sometimes, with boys it can be when they reach puberty and with girls when they start to become status conscious. I always greet our rats in the morning before opening their cage, they come to the door and I reach in... My daughter has a bad habit of just reaching in and grabbing a rat. A couple of weeks ago, Bunny decided she didn't much like being grabbed out of a sound sleep and my daughter got nipped twice. Misty is getting old and Bunny is starting to step up. Bunny is starting to want to stay out of the cage at night and to hang out with me more. She's also rushing to be first for food. She's young, strong and has the best vision among the girls. And she apparently doesn't feel getting grabbed out of her deep sleep is appropriate any more. In any case after one more painful and slightly bloody nip. My daughter now announces herself before grabbing her and gives her a chance to stretch and the problem is resolved. I didn't even have to intervene. Bunny is actually a very sweet rat, and because she sees me as the pack leader is actually being more attentive to me in her bid for family (top) rat status. Misty is still strong enough not to be pushed around, so Bunny is making her play by trying to associate herself with me more. If I call Misty, I get Bunny too and sometimes first and if Misty is looking for attention, Bunny will turn up the moment she hears me playing with Misty. So far it isn't something I discourage, but Misty is our family rat and I'll have to keep an eye on things if they become problematic. 

So, yes... the most likely cause of nipping is poor socialization, but sometimes it's a status thing too... It's almost always a form of communication, but it has to be discouraged in the strongest possible terms when necessary. Rat bites are painful and biting rats are dangerous to humans, other pets and other rats. Domestic pet rats should never bite under any circumstances. 

See how things go in your next session. Remember you want to foster open communication, but you need to set limits on bad behavior right from the start. You can't really do anything with a biting rat until you fix that problem first.


Best luck.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

PROGRESS!!

Today when I got home I set up a new, more open immersion area. I took Stella out of the cage. She squeaked and wiggled like I was killing her. I put her in the area and she did her normal skittish things.

But then I put her blanket on my lap and snuggled right in! Since then she has been right with me. When I am standing she is curled next to my feet. When I'm sitting she is behind me or in between my legs.

She still hates being picked up and stroked and squeaks occasionally, but hasn't bit or nipped me. My trust in her as gone up as hers has for me! The only nip was to my cousin and it wasn't hard.

I'm so happy about this!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I always love this point when following immersions, the breakthrough... when suddenly your rat sees you differently. Of course this is only the start of a beautiful friendship.... Some rats, especially girls never really like to be held, when they have other things to do, but they all get used to it and will ask for help getting places and most will enjoy climbing all over you...

Remember your rats will still have their own personalities and their likes and dislikes, part of understanding them is to understand their quirks. But you can teach and do a whole lot with a rat that trusts you and understands you.

During every immersion there are some bleak moments, when nothing is happening. You start wondering what you are doing wrong, you start doubting everything, and you start switching up your approach more or less to accommodate your personality and your situation... Something about those minor tweaks helps to make a difference, but a lot just boils down to being persistent. But then it's like someone flicks a switch and your rat has a light bulb moment and your real relationship starts. I think humans learn the same way. We either get fractions or we don't. One morning we go to school with no clue what a half or a quarter is and somewhere during the day we get it... and we're slicing pies and putting them back together. Once learned, it's a no brainer. Similarly one day we meet a stranger and wind up with a new best friend. So yes there's a procedure, and it can take work and patience, but in the end the actual learning event happens in a split second.

No matter how many times I've watched it happen, reading along and seeing everything change is still a great pleasure for me. Thanks for sharing your experience with us...

You're doing a great job and something wonderful for your rats.... Keep up the great work and best luck. You are at the beginning of something wonderful.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Today I had a small play session with Stella and Quinn together. Stella was so so outgoing and bruxed and ran around, but she bit quite a lot. 

They were both being very inquisitive and came to investigate much more than before.

Her biting is no longer stemming from fear. When she did bite we would bop her and kind of chase her around assertively.

My cousin thinks she may be pregnant? I don't think so. Once, my cousin got a pet store rat who bit and when babies popped out she stopped. She thinks Stella nips to protect her babies possibly.

The only hint at pregnancy is that when she stands up against a wall her tummy hangs out more than Quinn's or Feather's. Still not enough to be pregnant and I don't think she is, but an idea?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

If she is pregnant you will know for sure by the end of the week. Rats start to really show around 14 days, breeders will know before. Pet store rats are often badly socialize and nippy or even bite, so I wouldn't automatically assume that she is pregnant. That being said it isn't uncommon to get a pregnant rat from a pet store either just keep doing whatever you are doing as it is helping


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

When I rear bit or bite, I picture fountains of blood. We had a part wild rat and when she lost her cool she it bone or tore out flesh. When rats bite they tear out flesh.

On the other hand when she was a pup she would love to play fight and hand wrestle. She often attacked me fiercely only to mock bite me sometimes she even lunged at my face and mock bit me in the nose or around my eyes rapidly like a machine gun.... but there was never any blood and it never hurt. It was her way of playing combat.... Just about all rats hand wrestle, play fight and mock bite, but of course, being part wild she took play to another level. Wild rats and wolves learn to play fight well so they can survive in the wild when it's time for the real thing. Domestic rats just see it as a game.

So if your bleeding a lot, you have a real problem, if you aren't and you aren't in pain, your rat is just playing with you... Now our big boy Spot has got some real mass and some very sharp teeth and when he chomps down on my fingers I feel it, but again, not to the point it hurts or that he draws blood. He loves to play....

If your rats are play fighting with you that's actually a great sign, they have accepted you as a pack member and at least a sibling. Just play fight back.... the object of the game is to flip your opponent over and groom his or her belly. Typically when your rat wins a round it will stand on your hand and groom it, when you won, you flip your rat over and skritch her belly with your fingers, rather rapidly, like tickling. This will usually only last a few seconds and your rat will wriggle free and very likely start over.

If your bleeding and feeling pain, it's biting... if you aren't hurt or bleeding it's play. Remember your rat's teeth are razor sharp and rats have strong jaws, it's actually a lot easier for them to bite you for real than mock bite you.... If you aren't in a pool of blood, it's because your rat is being very careful with your delicate skin.

As to pregnancy.... We've had female rats for years, and our breeder breeds over a thousand rats a year, and neither of us spotted that bunny was two weeks pregnant... A few days later she looked like she ate a golf ball, the next day she started nesting and then she had her pups that night... Now Bunny is one of those freakishly thin rats and she only had 7 pups, but there was no way to tell.... well except she drank a lot of water and she seemed tweaky... And when we tried to introduce her to Misty, Misty tried to tear he to pieces and she didn't fight back. After Bunny had the babies, Misty stopped trying to kill her... and intros went without further blood letting.

So forgive me, if I got it wrong, if Stella is really biting you and your all covered in bandages, I'm sorry... get some gloves and swat or bop her until she understands biting is wrong.... If she's only play fighting, as in you're not in pain or bleeding go ahead and have some fun with her... Rats kind of like it when you add sound effects. like squeaking and growling, they dart away and charge back and look all fierce and funny.... Remember play ends when your skin is broken... play has to have it's limits.

Best luck.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

She isn't play fighting. I've play fought many rats, including her sister Quinn, and it's not that. It's not a bite but more of a nip. Like a "get out of my way I dislike you" nip.

Now that she has become braver, it feels a bit more like a dominance thing than a scared thing.

I'll pay more attention in our next time together!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

ratsaremylife said:


> She isn't play fighting. I've play fought many rats, including her sister Quinn, and it's not that. It's not a bite but more of a nip. Like a "get out of my way I dislike you" nip.Now that she has become braver, it feels a bit more like a dominance thing than a scared thing.I'll pay more attention in our next time together!


If you think it is dominance related, you could establish yourself as the alpha rat . Wrestle with her and pin her down on her back like rats do, hold her that way for 10 seconds, try again. See if it helps after a few days of doing that.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm pretty sure she doesn't dislike you, it is just misplaced dominance stuff. You gonna have to establish yourself as the alpha rat of the mischief.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Gribouilli said:


> If you think it is dominance related, you could establish yourself as the alpha rat . Wrestle with her and pin her down on her back like rats do, hold her that way for 10 seconds, try again. See if it helps after a few days of doing that.


I try and do that and she runs and hides in a corner for up to 30 minutes. I'll keep trying!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

She doesn't like it because she wants to be alpha. You could take out everything in her cage for a few days, wash the cage very well. With less stuff in her cage and a clean cage she won't be motivated to be as much alpha as there is less stuff to fight over. Just litter (no fleece so she can't hide or try to defend it), scattered food and water bottle (same as carrier method of intro). Might work better and she won't be able to hide and will have to face you. Nothing will work 100% of the time with all rats, but worth a try IMO.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I sort of hate to discipline any rat, some get it right away and understand why and what you want them to do, while others get all emotional and sulky... I'm going though that now with Lucky, I had to discipline her for eating wires... and now she's pretending to be all terrorized of me, bolting when I come into the room and squealing when I pick her up... And no, it's not real... last night she attacked me and dragged off my Eskimo pie... Literally pounced on me grabbed the ice cream treat by the wrapper and dove to the floor with it... She's made a tunnel through the Styrofoam air conditioner surround so she and her comrades can go outdoors onto the window ledge.... On the up side they chased away the birds that were nesting there... and I don't have to open the window now... But she's got it into her tiny rat mind to enlarge her little hole and turn it into a super highway tunnel... So, I'm yelling, jumping up and down and poking her with a pencil (eraser end) and she's ignoring me.... So when I finally come around my desk to the window... she slinks off like I'm the villain again... and she's back to avoiding me and sulking... She's such a manipulative little faker... We already had one real Emo rat... the last thing I need is a rat to be pretending to guilt me into letting her have her way....

So yes, some rats really sulk when you discipline them... other's pretend to sulk for effect... Either way you mostly feel rotten about it... But you can't put up with nipping and you have to take immediate steps to correct her. A bop or swat along with a shout (with love in your heart) is likely all that's required... and if your rat is confused now, she'll soon get that you aren't mad at her, you just disapprove of what she's doing...

I'm a really understanding rat parent... but I don't permit biting, wire slashing and apparently letting all of my air conditioning out... I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people here that wouldn't even let their rats outside onto a third floor window ledge to catch the breeze, harass birds and enjoy the fresh air. My girls are so spoiled it isn't even funny... but even I have my limits. And I do what I have to do when I have to do it, even if our rats don't much like it.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So since my last post Lucky subverted Bunny into widening the opening for her... I ordered Bunny to stop, she had a preen think and stopped... Then I called her over and we played for a few minutes... No hard feelings... That's the way things should be... Bunny knew I was upset with her behavior and not her. And she's not the spoiled brat her daughter is turning into.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Rat Daddy, thank you for always boosting my confidence with my rats. And accompanying your explanations with examples. It's immensely helpful! I will definitely keep at it!

My rats are so spoiled also, although with the new parrot they don't get as much out time as they used to.


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## ratsaremylife (Nov 5, 2013)

Quick update: 

I have had to learn how to balance time out with all my animals. Tonight the babies finally got an hour out to play on my bed.

To my surprise, it was Stella who was engaging me and playing and investigating. Whereas Quinn found a pillow and burries into it. I was amazed. By no means are either properly socialized, however this is amazing on Stella's part!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Immersion strangely evolves from sessions to a lifestyle. That's sort of the plan... to get the rats out of the cage and playing with you... Some days one rat may be more playful, sometimes the other... but the idea is to create a mixed human and rat family with everybody more or less getting along and understanding each other... The purpose of the long sessions is to break the ice, build trust and to establish communication. Then you pretty much just take it from there.

Rats really are amazing, sometimes I wonder if I use the term too often... But amazing is the goal I personally shoot for, and I'm really gratified when I read other people using it about their own rats. Today our town held the Hispanic day festival... our Mayor is big on fireworks... which is where we test our true shoulder rats... we took two rats in training along... For the first time ever, two rats made the grade at once and we have three living true shoulder rats at once.... It all started with immersion and as of today we've successfully trained 6 true shoulder rats... we took some pics and there might even be a short video. But I don't mean to derail your thread...

You are definitely on the right track... start thinking of ways to get your rats out of the cage more and of challenging them to be more a part of your family. It's never easy to make time for your rats, but there are ways of doing things with them, thus killing two birds with one rat. For example my daughter and I like fireworks... and two rats got to spend a few hours training and meeting people and eating ice cream. One rat even had a first taste of hard cider. I know not too many people are likely to combine festivals, fireworks and rats... but when you include them in things you do around the house, they will get more time out and to be with you and you will still be able to do other things at the same time.... just an idea for going forward... And more than likely other people can give you safer alternatives. 

Just keep up the great work, every post is sounding better than the last so I'm absolutely convinced you are on the right track.

Best luck.


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