# aaaaaahhhh oh no. i walked into my kitchen to this at 11am



## Elizabethm

i have no idea how she got prego. i have had her for a few months now and i keep all my females seperated from my males at all times. she never showed any signs, agression, fatness, anything. she was always eger to be held. i cant recall her ever escaping from the cage. i do get the occasional wild rat in my apartment.... could that be possible. shes been moved from the comunity cage to my little extra cage but i think shes still having more. what do i do im so unprepared :-\ :-[


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## Kiko

You'll know if it is a wild rat when you see the babies grow fur.

As for being prepared don't worry to much rats do what they do well. Look for the little milk belly lines, and make sure mom is nursing.

You knew the basics from your last few litters so don't worry.


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## Elizabethm

ok i will check for milk bands. it looks like 8 or 9 babies but i cant really tell cuz shes hovered over them. yeah i saw one baby with a slight milk band... shes asleep right now with all the babies almost under her completely


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## Kiko

within a few hours mom should be nursing, so just keep an eye out for the milk bands.


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## Elizabethm

ok thank you. :-\. not expecting this shock though lol. halloween babies


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## Elizabethm

*11 babies*

*day 1:* 11 babies


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## rattiesalem24

I'm back! lol, who is the mother? don't forget to update pics! (I think ive said that before )


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## Elizabethm

good to see you back. i missed you lol. the mother is ashes here in the picture. you can see a baby too but most of them are under her


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## wagz77

Very cute rat.  i took pictures of my rats, but need to upload them. i will do it tomorrow. xD


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## Elizabethm

thank you. shes a little sneak. goes a whole pregnancy and doesnt even let me know till they pop out all over the place.  sorry the pic is bad but as you can see there is a little milk band which i have circled


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## wagz77

Cute lil' one.  Do you have any idea who the daddy is??


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## Elizabethm

i do not. i have 3 males and 3 females but they are seperated into a male cage and a female cage. i do not recall any of them ever escaping their cages so i have no idea


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## wagz77

Maybe once they get color, hair type, ear type, and eye color, you could use those genetics to make an educated guess, maybe? Idk. :/ congratz on the babies though!


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## Elizabethm

thank you. i will keep and eye on that and i will keep updated on pics


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## Nagi

Surprise! haha, Cute!!<3


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## Elizabethm

yeah i know lol. thank you


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## ema-leigh

With 11 babies you would of certainly of noticed her pregnant belly no? :-\ I find anything over 5/6 to be VERY obvious.


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## Elizabethm

all my rats are chubby... a little. i did not notice any differance and i never saw any movements. when jojo ate her babies... the day before they were born her tummy looked like there was an ocean wave crashing inside her... Ashes showed nothing not even aggression, tired, appitite increase or anything


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## Elizabethm

*Baby pics: DAY 2*

im gonna update them daily lol


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## wagz77

Yay. Updates daily.  haha


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## Elizabethm

lol yup. i love baby pictures ;D


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## rattiesalem24

Elizabethm said:


> lol yup. i love baby pictures ;D


Me too I love the pics!


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## wagz77

Me too!


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## Elizabethm

i can see that 3 might be like a solid black or something. what do you guys think


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## rattiesalem24

I can't really tell yet, lol. I think the one in the upper right of the pic on day 2 u posted might be a hooded .


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## Elizabethm

maybe i was thinking that the ones on the far left were solids. i cant wait till their skin darkens so i can tell what they will be


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## wagz77

Yeah, the top left looks like a solid to me.  but ive never had a litter.. yet. but im just going off pictures ive seen. just a small question, when can you take the mom out and let her play with her friends (not permanetly.. just for like 20 minutes)? so she has a break from nursing.


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## Elizabethm

wagz77 said:


> Yeah, the top left looks like a solid to me.  but ive never had a litter.. yet. but im just going off pictures ive seen. just a small question, when can you take the mom out and let her play with her friends (not permanetly.. just for like 20 minutes)? so she has a break from nursing.


i am not sure as this is my first litter too but id wait say 5 days and then let her out anytime during the day. the mom shouldnt be away from the babies more than 30 minutes though. im not reall sure i hope this is right advice


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## Jaguar

you should handle the babies right from the day they're born.... it's especially crucial to get the socialization in early with pet store/feeder rats where you don't know their temperament history - that's the best way to adjust them to it. just take mom out to let her have a break and get some exercise a few short times a day and hold the babies while she's away  just make sure to keep them warm while they don't have any fuzz


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## Elizabethm

*baby pics Day 3*

took her out and put her with the girls while i held and took a pic of the babies... here they are. i think i see a couple hoods starting to show


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## hansloas

Yeah, I see their hoods. They're so cute!


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## Elizabethm

thank you!!!!! im hoping there is one with a blaze or head spot that i can add to my family. ;D. im proud of my girl ashes.... shes an amazing mommy


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## hansloas

I will wish with you. Head spots are so pretty


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## Elizabethm

yup and blazes too. i cant wait. i get more excited when their skin changes daily


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## rattiesalem24

You'll know what they all look like in a couple days! Good luck on the blaze/headspot!

Question: If the father was a wild rat (standard), would the pups be standard haired too? Cuz I've never seen a double rex with a blaze


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## Elizabethm

found this random rex rat with a blaze on google. im hopeing for something like this


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## rattiesalem24

Oh, that looks cool ! Fingers are crossed for a blaze


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## wagz77

My girl has a blaze, and is pregnant, so at least one of her babies will have it.  im excited for the babies!


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## Elizabethm

ahhh i hope i get a blaze. i want one sooooooo badly


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## ema-leigh

even though you know that would put the baby at higher risk for mc?


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## Elizabethm

blaze has a higher risk for mega colon... omg really  i didnt know that was possible. i thought it was only high white


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## wagz77

I'm thinking next time i get rats, im going to get them from a lab. even though they are all albino, that i know of, i heard they are the healthiest of all rats.


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## Elizabethm

im pretty sure they are still prone to megacolon. i would never get a lab rat unles it was given to me by a relative or teacher


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## ema-leigh

Blazes, unless recessive are the result of the high white gene. :-\


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## ema-leigh

Lab rats are not the healthiest... far from it! lol. The ones that are 'myco free' tend to fall sick as soon as they come outside of the sterile lab environments. Not to mention all the other issues, most can't climb or are very anti social. Good breeders will always be the healthiest.


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## Elizabethm

*comparison on color of babies*

these are hooded with what look like dark eyes









these look to be white with pink eyes but im not positive. all i know is that their eyes are the color of their skin under those eyelids









comparison beween the two colors and their eyes. white colored (top) hooded (bottom)


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## Kiko

wagz77 said:


> My girl has a blaze, and is pregnant, so at least one of her babies will have it.  im excited for the babies!


Don't be so sure, I am no expert on these things, but only 1 parent having a marking does not mean the babies will have it.
My girl Peaches had a litter, she is a Silverfawn Dumbo (or some similar color) And ALL her babies were either Brown hooded, blue hooded or Berkshire. I am not complaining, but I got no Dumbos, and no more rare colors lol.



ema-leigh said:


> Lab rats are not the healthiest... far from it! lol. The ones that are 'myco free' tend to fall sick as soon as they come outside of the sterile lab environments. Not to mention all the other issues, most can't climb or are very anti social. Good breeders will always be the healthiest.


Agreed!


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## Elizabethm

*just posted comparison pictures of the bubs*

tell me if im correct or its a possiblity or im totally wrong. it has me puzzled since their eyelids are see through


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## ema-leigh

The hoodeds look blue, but may just be a bright camera flash. They likely have dark ruby eyes. 

Heres my 3 day old black hooded bub... she looks much darker than your babies. 









This baby has black eyes. 3 days old again and was a black berk.


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## Elizabethm

well the mom is a blue hooded so i was expecting at least 1. im no expert but some gene from her had to show up lol... right


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## blenderpie

I hope you get the colors you're hoping for, but there is a chance that none of the babies will have her markings. (Remember allll the way back to high school biology with punnet squares? At least that's what I think they're called...) For instance, Two brown haired, brown eyed humans could give birth to a blond, blue eyed baby as long as both carried the recessive gene. If blue hooded is recessive (I have no idea) BOTH parents would have to be recessive carriers for it to have a chance of showing up. If not, then no blue hooded babies...


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## Elizabethm

yeah punnet squares... i hope i get a couple blue hoods but i dont know who the father is so i cant say for sure what they will be... i can only hope :-\


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## Bacca

the babies are sooooo cute !


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## Elizabethm

thank you. i love them all lol


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## Elizabethm

*little video of ashe's 4 day old bubies*

bubies only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmCJohXw9A0

mom and bubies


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_HQKmy-gY8


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## ema-leigh

The blue gene is required from both parents to show. Are one of your boys the father? Are any of your boys blue? 

The babies and mom look really great, the only thing I would mention is they get cold quick... whenever you have them out just took the corner of the blanket over them - it makes a HUGE difference.


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## Elizabethm

taz- double rexs white with pink eyes, and chip-double rex berkshire were litter mates to a blue genetic hairless mom and a double rex berkshire father so i think they can carry a "hidden" gene right. niggles is a double rex berkshire and i dont know his background.

ashes is a blue hooded double rex for sure. im prety sure now that it wasnt a wild male who got her prego but i have no idea which of my males is the father as i did not see her with any of them. i am not the only one in my family who cleans the rat cages though so i can not be possitive how she got prego


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## ema-leigh

No I've seen some babies this light turn out to be dusty colored blacks before in a rescue litter I raised. As this is a double rex line (and from feeder breeders) I doubt their 'breeder' bred them for good strong colors. They are defiantly not wild though, so must be one of your boys if you've had her for a while. 

What are all their whiskers like?


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## Elizabethm

their wiskers are all curly. there are 2 other people in my family who take on the responsibility of cleaning the cages as i use newspaper so it has to be changed more often. if she was was introduced with my males it was not on my cleaning shift. i have not seen my males near my females at any time since ive had them


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## ema-leigh

Yeah then it has to be one of your boys... you don't see many wild rex or double rex rats 

I'd be really mad at whoever's cleaning duty it was when it happened. It put your girl at a lot of risk considering what happened with the past two related litters. I'm glad they are doing well though, I look forward to watching them grow up.


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## wagz77

Kiko said:


> wagz77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My girl has a blaze, and is pregnant, so at least one of her babies will have it.  im excited for the babies!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so sure, I am no expert on these things, but only 1 parent having a marking does not mean the babies will have it.
> My girl Peaches had a litter, she is a Silverfawn Dumbo (or some similar color) And ALL her babies were either Brown hooded, blue hooded or Berkshire. I am not complaining, but I got no Dumbos, and no more rare colors lol.
> 
> 
> The blaze gene is dominant.
Click to expand...


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## ema-leigh

The mega colon blaze gene is dominant. The only type of blaze that should be bred is the recessive blaze. :-\


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## rattiesalem24

o you have any pics from yesterday or today?


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## Elizabethm

*DAY 5 baby pictures*

i have asked but no one is giving a straight answer.... its all been "i cant remember". oh well at least mom and babies are fine now heres a couple more pictures


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## rattiesalem24

Aww, their getting so big!


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## Elizabethm

yeah i know. i cant belive how fast they are growing. im shocked mom can even hover over them while feeding. poor moms so tiny with 11 giant babies wiggling under her


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## rattiesalem24

Are the eyelids of the bubs with no color still see through? Do they still look red to you?


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## Elizabethm

yes they do. its harder to see through them but it still looks a ruby color compared to the bubs with hoods


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## wagz77

They look great!


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## Elizabethm

one of the pink bubs looks like it has a little patchy coloring on its back but im not sure. if it is light hood or patch i might keep that one. see if you can spot it


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## rattiesalem24

Is it one of the three bottom ones (of the first pic)? Not really the middle one, but the outer two?


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## JennBell

I though the same thing about some of the pink ones looking like they have patchy spots but couldn't tell if it was a shadow or not.


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## rattiesalem24

JennBell said:


> I though the same thing about some of the pink ones looking like they have patchy spots but couldn't tell if it was a shadow or not.


Ya, it could possibly be blue or beige or something, but now I'm almost positive something is there.


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## Elizabethm

its the first pinky on the bottom left in PICTURE #1. i think thats a spot because it doesnt change when i pic the baby up. im thinking of keeping that one and naming it pumpkin.


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## ema-leigh

The hoods look black to me now for sure. The patches may be beige or another light color... not blue. You'll know better once their fur starts coming in. 

How old is mom? 

Are you buying more suitable cages since your going to be expanding?


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## lilspaz68

Just me but I am seeing black hooded, agouti hooded or bad black, and beige hooded, etc

When you say berkshire, what colour? Since berkshire is only a marking it doesn't tell us what colour the possible Daddy was.


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## Elizabethm

well taz is white/pink eyes, chip is pale black/brown eyes, niggles is black/brown eyes, mom is between 5-6 months..... so i was told. i just got a job so when i get paid im thinking ferret nation type cage but im gonna look into all the big cages and make sure its safe for small bubs. im just accited that i might have a patchy colored pinky. i was hoping for 1 different than a blacl/blue hood, berkshire or solid color like the ones i have.


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## lilspaz68

If none of the adult rats have blazes you won't have one with the babies.

You also won't likely have any blues either.


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## rattiesalem24

If you decide to get the double ferret nation, here is a list of who is selling it:
http://www.google.com/products/cata...oe=UTF-8&cid=1635955300964147346&os=sellers#p
The best to me looks like Amazon Warehouse Deals, but I just noticed it says used, so I dont know. The ferret nation alone i've heard is not safe for small pups, because of it's 1 inch bar spacing, but if you do decide to get it, what a lot of people do is put hardware (cloth? Wire?I don't remember...) around the cage until the bubs can't get through the bars.


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## rattiesalem24

O, I just saw that it is currently out of stock at that place Amazon Warehouse Deals. Maybe it will be in stock later.


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## rattiesalem24

Here is another type of cage:
http://www.google.com/products/cata...ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEkQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers
According to the rat cage calculator, can fit 9 rats. It has 8/10 inch bar spacing I think.


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## rattiesalem24

And yet another:
http://www.google.com/products/cata...=result&resnum=7&ved=0CF8Q8wIwBjgy#ps-sellers

http://www.bird.com/item/prevue-whi...-7EF1-DE11-A84F-0019B9C2BEFD&mr:referralID=NA
More expensive, but looks good  and 3/8 inch bar spacing, bubs can't get out of that.


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## rattiesalem24

I think i've posted too much on the cage topic, so this will be my last :
http://www.google.com/products/cata...=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEkQ8wIwADhG#ps-sellers

And of course:
http://www.hamstercagesource.com/rat-cages/critter-nation-double-unit.html
Critter nation double!

Sorry for posting so much....I got carried away :-\


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## JennBell

LOL, I've been on the cage calculators all morning trying to see if I would have enough room to keep all 8 of my new babies  Depending on their sexes it shouldn't be an issue


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## Elizabethm

*DAY 8- yay colors showing*

well the 7 white bubs look beige hooded and of course 4 black hooded


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## hansloas

Elizabethm said:


> well the 7 white bubs look beige hooded and of course 4 black hooded


O.O OMG.
They are so cute!!!! The beige hooded are precious.


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## catsandscales

OH MY GOSH SO CUTE!!! I can't wait to see them with fur... I love seeing the markings appear! It's like those magical water Barbies that change color in warm water. XD

I love these daily photo updates. They grow so fast!


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## Elizabethm

catsandscales said:


> OH MY GOSH SO CUTE!!! I can't wait to see them with fur... I love seeing the markings appear! It's like those magical water Barbies that change color in warm water. XD
> 
> I love these daily photo updates. They grow so fast!


well if they do grow fur they should lose it at 5 weeks (double rex babies) and thank you. it is amazing how those white babies turned beige


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## Elizabethm

heres an updated video of my baby ratties. also im pointing out a differance in 2 of the hooded babies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UllKYzED9bQ


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## JennBell

They are growing so fast, and I watched the video of the mom with her babies and wow it looks like she has alot of hair for a double rex. Both of my double rex boys are almost completely bald except for a little fuz on there faces


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## Elizabethm

JennBell said:


> They are growing so fast, and I watched the video of the mom with her babies and wow it looks like she has alot of hair for a double rex. Both of my double rex boys are almost completely bald except for a little fuz on there faces


this is the picture i took of ashes when i first got her. during the summer and spring she looks like this but during the winter she grows this long rex fur everywhere. its so odd because i have 5 other double rex rats. im thinking she might be a patchwork rex but im not sure. im allergic to rat hair but hers doesnt affect me in anyway
*momma ashes when i first got her*









*my other double rex rats (3 bucks, 2 does)*
bucks
























*doe's*


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## Elizabethm

with the babies it looks like 6 girls, 5 boys but im not 100% sure of my rat pup sexing skills especially since they wiggle so much and are so small


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## ema-leigh

So basically they are all black hoodeds, beige is black with the RED gene diluting color, the beige babies should have ruby eyes. I watched the video and the two different babies you pointed out. The lighter colored one is beige for sure. The other one looks like it may be fawn? or argente. 

And double rex can have a varying amount of hair, depending on how the breeder breeds them. The more you add in the double rex gene the less hair they will have.


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## Elizabethm

*fawn? or argente* are these very common. im not sure but if its one of these i may keep him. i have 2 hooded (1 black, 1 blue), 1 solid black, 1 black/white berkshire, 1 white. it would be an interesting colored rat to keep. i have to keep at least 1 baby


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## ema-leigh

They are not rare, esp if a feeder breeder is producing them lol. But they are bright beautiful colors, I'd suspect they are fawn over Argente (which is slightly more rarer).... we'll see once their coats come in and they open their eyes. Do you see any noticeable difference between the beige babies and 'fawn' babies eyes? 

Oh you'll defiantly want to keep at least one, its hard not to get attached when your raising babies.... but think about what you can actually afford to keep... and cage space etc. Each extra rat will consume another extra pound of food per months on average... and thats not including veggies + supplements.


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## Elizabethm

i didnt expect them to be rare i was just asking about commonality. i have space for 1 baby boy. no i havent really looked at the eyes since they got more noticable color. im gonna wait till their eyes open


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## lilspaz68

I still see 2 black hooded, 2 agouti hooded, beige and fawns. No blues.

Molly's babies, 2 agoutis, 1 black hooded, 1 beige, 2 fawn










black hooded beside her her agouti brother









2 fawns with beige in middle


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## Elizabethm

how old are they. mine are 9 days old and my odd colored one is not nearly as dark as that agouti hooded one in your pic. if anything its just a small shade darker than the beige hooded


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## Jaguar

um... i think she's trying to say that two of the dark/black babies look like they're agouti, and i agree that they're either that, or bad browny black :-\ two are definitely lighter.


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## lilspaz68

Elizabethm said:


> how old are they. mine are 9 days old and my odd colored one is not nearly as dark as that agouti hooded one in your pic. if anything its just a small shade darker than the beige hooded


beige and fawn come in very different shades but are still beige and fawn.

they are 8-9 days old in those pics. they were born on March 25, and those pics were taken April 2 (all in hand) and April 3.


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## Elizabethm

ok so im pretty sure it will not get any darker... ??? lol i hope not. i love that shade on that baby. oh well if it does it does.


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## Elizabethm

*DAY 9- much better color showing*

well i definantly see 2 agouti hooded, 2 black hooded, 1 fawn hooded?, and definantly 6 beige hooded


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## wagz77

Theyre cute! And growing up sooooo fast!!!


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## lilspaz68

switch it around, 6 fawn, 1 beige.


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## ema-leigh

Yeah I thought two of the black hoodeds were lighter.. but I just thought they would be dusty blacks... I've never worked with Agouti so thats interesting to see. 

Defiantly 6 fawn, 1 beige


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## Elizabethm

lol 6 fawns, 2 agouti, 1 beige, 2 black hooded. yay... ema-leigh: why is it interesting for you to see the 2 agouti hooded


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## ema-leigh

I find it interesting because I love agouti, but I've never owned one/worked with them. I've never seen an agouti baby, they just look like poor blacks really as babies. The pet stores around me have tons... but I won't buy one from there. (I go look at them once in a while though)


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## Elizabethm

oh well i hope you find one near you. im sure youd greatly enjoy owning a hooded agouti


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## Kiko

I always wanted an agouti hooded 
If you were on my side of the country I would want one xD


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## Elizabethm

lol i wish you could ship rats like other animals (lizards, birds etc) id do that for sure.


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## Kiko

I am out here in the farrest eastern point of NY xD
So I am wayyyy far away haha.


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## Elizabethm

yup lol


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## ema-leigh

You can ship rats via some pet airlines, but its expensive.... I'm flying over some double rex myself from Vancouver (30 min flight)


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## Elizabethm

oh wow. i bet cost is high. ive been wanting a hedgehog but and i can afford it at some times ($100) but its the shipping i cant afford. $175 was the last shipping estimate i got.


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## Elizabethm

*DAY 10- close up*


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## catsandscales

=D SO CUUUTE! They get so big and colorful in just ten days!


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## ema-leigh

$175 is a really great shipping price  Although I don't think you need any more pets at the moment lol. 

The babies are looking a bit thin... what is moms current diet?


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## Elizabethm

yeah i got that estimate 2 years ago before i had my 6 rats, dove, and cat when i was still living with my parents. 

*well she gets this for her daily mommy diet*

7am- honey yogurt
8am- all day- lab blocks
9am- boiled chicken- occasionally a small chunck of steak
10am- scrambled egg
12am- 2 carrots, 1 lettus leaf
6pm- 1 lettus leaf
7pm- honey yogurt
9pm- small piece of chicken
9pm- if she needs any more lab blocks i give her a small handful in her bowl

also monday, wednesday and friday she gets a fruit and nut mix once a day


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## JennBell

I'm jealous of you agouti babies, I've always loved them  I would love some standard coat agouti rats


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## Elizabethm

that would be cool. hope u find one


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## Kiko

lol you don't have to time all those foods, she can be free to pick at them.
Is she eating all of it?


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## Elizabethm

i time it like that because otherwise she hides in and it starts molding. she has gotten used to that schedule and now eats all of the item i give her before the next portion instead of hiding it. i give her a steady portion of lab blocks all day long and the others she seems to look at like they are treats she needs to eat. its funny. she grabs them from my hands, clims on the baby nest and eats her treat. come the next hour she beggs for her other treat and eats it right away too


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## ema-leigh

I wouldn't give her yogurt that much, rats don't do well of dairy. Mine get a small amount once per month. I think thats a little bit too much protien as well. Don't forget the yogurt, chicken, steak and egg is treats.. if shes filling herself up on these she won't eat as much lab blocks and therefore be malnutritioned despite the good intentions. 

A good lab block can last a week in the cage, as long as it doesn't get soiled. What lab block are you feeding? And are they free fed? 

I would also increase the amount and variety of vegetables offered, if you put it in in the evening when shes most active... they should be gone by the morning - otherwise just reduce the amount you give her next time.


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## Elizabethm

she gets oxbow lab blocks (well they are really shaped like hearts). she only get 2 soda pop lids full of greek yogurt. it has no bad additives and its all natural greek honey yogurt. yeah thats why i dont fill her bowl with that stuff all at once and i span it out by the hour or so. it would be way too much in one period of time and she tends to hide people food which it ends up rotting before she eats it. yeah ithe lab blocks are refilled everyday even if it barely has any missing from the bowl. i dont give her alot of it only a couple pieces but since ive had she has been a horder of food. she will clear out a whole bowl of lab blocks by just hiding them from the other girls and she never eats it all.


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## ema-leigh

A soda pop lid of yogurt is a lot! Thats like us eating a whole bowl, its the dairy content not the fact it isn't healthy. Rats are generally lactose intolerant. 

If she stashes food thats okay, just give her less at one time and check on her stash before giving her more food.


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## Elizabethm

ok thanks


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## Bacca

i bet that was a surprise when you found her and the bubs. i got a huuuge surprise when i found me babies, i didnt even kow she was preggo. i went to sleaan her out and found them in her sleeping area. she was a pet shop rat so must have gotten pregnant with one of her brothers. i didnt intend to breed but i guess its just one of those things that happens. x good luck!


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## Elizabethm

yeah i guess so. it sucks about getting the surprise but i and im sure you quickly realized how cute and enjoyable they are. its depressing when those things happen but you have to hope for the best and enjoy them as little bubs since they grow up so fast. holy cow. 11 days ago they were pink and naked and now they have color and are moving like little crippled popcorn. (they cant support their bodies yet but they bounce none the less lol)


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## catsandscales

Little crippled popcorn. XD haha, that's a funny visual!


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## Elizabethm

yeah it is pretty funny. i mean i couldnt think of anything else because they pop and roll because they are trying to walk. its sooooooooooo adorable

lol new dance instead of pop lock and drop it. their doing the pop and roll


----------



## catsandscales

haha XD I bet it's super fun to watch. =]

Photo update? =D


----------



## Elizabethm

*Day 12- new photos*

*notice the ripples in the fur. looks like they have the mommy's rex type fur. all dark babies have tail spots*

baby 1 and 2
agouti and fawn









baby 3 and 4
black and fawn









baby 5 and 6
black and beige









baby 7 and 8
fawn and fawn










baby 9, 10, and 11
fawn, agouti, and fawn


----------



## rattiesalem24

Aww! They are so cute! They aren't so pink and naked anymore! They will all grow up to be double rex, right? Do you know the sexes yet?

I wish I posted more. I check all the time, but don't usually have time to post.

Congrats, they look great!


----------



## catsandscales

So cute! Thanks for the update.  They look like itsy bitsy puppies. XD


----------



## Elizabethm

thank you and im pretty sure they will be double rex seeing as all my males are double rex and so is mom. not sure which male but its a pretty good bet that its one of my 3 double rex males


----------



## Jaguar

you've got the colors backwards. there's one beige and six fawn.

they're cute, though, definitely some rexies


----------



## Elizabethm

thank you. im so confused though. i got told 6 beige, 1 fawn and then the next day someone told me they were really 6 fawn, 1 beige.


----------



## Jaguar

yeah, they looked the other way around when they were younger. fawn is more golden colored, and beige is kind of grayish tan  they should all have ruby/red eyes though


----------



## Elizabethm

yeah im pretty sure they will have ruby eyes... all but the agouti and blacks


----------



## Jaguar

yeah the beige and fawns i meant xD


----------



## Elizabethm

yeah thats what i was saying. the beige and fawns will be the only ones with ruby eyes 

all *but* the agouti's and the blacks will have ruby eyes


----------



## lilspaz68

Baby 5 is the beige and I see rexy coats. You should look for curly whiskers and you'll know for sure.


----------



## Elizabethm

*omg baby rats new exciting update DAY 13*

they all have curly wiskers. notice baby 1's right eye open. SHE is the only one so far to open an eye.

*isnt that the cutest face ever : ;D*


----------



## catsandscales

I love their little whiskers... =D Can't wait to see more open eyes!


----------



## Elizabethm

catsandscales said:


> I love their little whiskers... =D Can't wait to see more open eyes!


i hope you enjoyed coming over and meeting all my ratties and the babies. it was fun to have someone to hang out with who had some of the same interests as me


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

They are too cute! I totally wish I lived closer to you lol


----------



## Elizabethm

thank you. i gotta choose who i wanna keep. getting a 2 story rat cage soon so i will have 3 cages. im gonna keep the beige boy i think. and maybe a fawn female. but im not completley sure.


----------



## catsandscales

No prob! XD I loved meeting all your ratties... I was a little bit skeptical of the double rex aspect, but nekkid rats are SUPER charming after all! And I'm definitely taking home one of those bebies when I have a proper cage for pre-introductions to the two I'm getting.


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

The beige are my favorites. I would take one in a heartbeat if I could lol


----------



## Elizabethm

thats the sad thing about distances and law against shipping live rats. flying is way too expensive just to ship 1 rat.


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

Yes it is. Not many people could afford to ship them. All well might as well not cry over spilt milk, maybe I'll find a sweet little beige hooded to take home ;D


----------



## Elizabethm

im sure you will come across one if not now maybe later


----------



## lilspaz68

You really should keep 2 babies of the same sex. Its not fair that you are splitting them up just because "I want". Keep 2 boys, keep 2 girls, but babies need other babies and you have them there. Unlike rescue situations where there's a single baby. They do alright, but they are so much happier and well adjusted with a same-sex sibling.


----------



## Elizabethm

i am thinking of keeping 2 boys also as i will then have 4 boys total. i am holding 1 girl for a friend so i will have 5 female rats. thats plenty


----------



## lilspaz68

I see a lot more Ooops litters in your future. :'(


----------



## Spoonrat

Considering this was an accidental litter wouldn't you be better off just keeping one gender? Why don't you just keep boys then you wouldn't keep having these problems... :-\


----------



## Elizabethm

because a couple are being held for local chico friends until they get bigger. one local friend (who is on this site) says she wants a girl only for her other 2 female rats but that the bars on her cage cant keep a baby rat inside. her and i are doing visits until its big enough.

this was only my first issue and it was caused my a neglagent or forget family member. i have better informed them and they saw what they caused so they will be more careful when cleaning (clean seperate cages at seperate times)


----------



## catsandscales

This kind of stuff happens... it was an accident. A lot of people successfully keep male and female rats, but accidents happen, like I said. I don't see why she can't keep two genders... it's only happened once.


----------



## lilspaz68

catsandscales said:


> This kind of stuff happens... it was an accident. A lot of people successfully keep male and female rats, but accidents happen, like I said. I don't see why she can't keep two genders... it's only happened once.


Have you read a lot of her posts? she's just learning about rats, and has been taking in multiple pregnant ones beforehand...a few rats have died that should've seen a vet, etc.

Her family has less common sense than she does as well, so how is she going to prevent more pregnancies?

Was this litter truly accidental?


----------



## catsandscales

I don't remember anything about her taking in multiple pregnant ones. One of the rats she got turned out to be pregnant, which also happens to lots of people. And she had no way to knowing that the mother wouldn't be able to handle to pregnancy.

It seems like a few of you have singled her out to crucify... things have been hostile for a while. It's kind of bothering me. These forums are to be fun and informational, correct? Maybe she is stubborn at times, but so are quite a few of you.

I'd like to continue to be on this forum, but the lack of respect AND antagonism displayed on both sides is becoming almost juvenile. This is a rat forum, for pete's sake! I understand that rats are living creatures and deserve respect and proper care, and are largely misunderstood by most people, but there are more important things going on in life than whether or not Elizabeth is a competent rat owner. The drama thus far has been silly and unnecessary.

Can't we all just get along? =P


----------



## Spoonrat

Hasn't she had 2 pregnant females? One of whom she bought knowing she was pregnant? 

From what I've seen members have tried to be helpful and patient but when someone ignores good advice and insists on doing things their way because they know better it's bound to get under peoples' skin...

And yes of course people can keep males and females. I do. Loads of people do. But the vast majority don't end up with an oops litter.

I'd like to get along  People just care so much about rats that it can be difficult to see past that I think. It's like when someone posts about their first single rat in a tiny hamster cage, people just want to scream 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOO - CAGE TOO SMALL GET FRIEND!!' in a scary fashion. 

Lets be fair we all want the best for our rats, right? I come on here as a reasonably experienced owner because I want to learn all I can. I'm happy to take advice from people who know more than me even if it goes against what I previously believed. Since joining this forum I've changed my attitude regarding pet shops (I.E. there's no way I'm buying a rat from one...) and my rats' diet has improved dramatically. When I was new I felt a bit intimidated but soon realised people just want to help - sometimes it gets a little overenthusiastic.

Regarding the mothers and pregnancys didn't she leave one in the house while she went away somewhere and then she gave birth? Not saying that caused any of the bad things that happened but I would NEVER leave a sick or heavily pregnant rat with someone who wouldn't be willing to be hands on if necessary...

Yes there are more important things in life than whether elizabeth is a competent rat owner. But personally I love rats more than I can express and I will do everything in my power to make sure as many rats as possible have long, healthy and happy lives with the care they deserve!


...


that was a rant and a half... forgive me..


----------



## catsandscales

Forgiven! XD I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate the calm and civil response. 

Like I said, the antagonism is coming from both sides. I guess my main complaint is that it doesn't have to escalate like it does. It happens on every forum, too. I wish it was as simple as "if you don't agree and can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" but I realize people are passionate about this. Not saying I'm for any kind of bad pet ownership... I just really care about having mature discussions instead of these crazy, inflated flame fests. XD I think it's more effective to be calm about it, because people are more wiling to listen when you aren't being mean to them and they get defensive. =\

So that's sort of where I'm coming from... Maybe there are instances where it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back, but that's what's so great about the internet... you (meaning anyone) can leave as long as you like and de-stress with your ratties and then come back when you think you can answer without getting heated. XD And again, if you come back to a situation and find that you're still upset, maybe the best thing to do is ignore it... obviously good advice is lost on some people, and no amount of kicking and screaming with help... it only makes it worse because it drives them away.

My two cents!


----------



## lilspaz68

If you would like a listing of posts she has made, where we were very supportive and helpful, I can give them to you (from before you joined) but after a while of the same ol' you get tired and irritated, and it comes out. I CARE about the rats on here, all rats, not just my own, I get so many emails and PM's from people all the time who ask for my help, advice, finding them a vet, reassurance or just a thank you for being there for people...when you run into someone who keeps doing things over and over, and keeps following bad advice and defending obviously bad situations, you get tired.


----------



## catsandscales

Yeah, I understand that frustration. =\


----------



## Elizabethm

Spoonrat said:


> Hasn't she had 2 pregnant females? One of whom she bought knowing she was pregnant?
> 
> From what I've seen members have tried to be helpful and patient but when someone ignores good advice and insists on doing things their way because they know better it's bound to get under peoples' skin...
> 
> And yes of course people can keep males and females. I do. Loads of people do. But the vast majority don't end up with an oops litter.
> 
> I'd like to get along  People just care so much about rats that it can be difficult to see past that I think. It's like when someone posts about their first single rat in a tiny hamster cage, people just want to scream 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOO - CAGE TOO SMALL GET FRIEND!!' in a scary fashion.
> 
> Lets be fair we all want the best for our rats, right? I come on here as a reasonably experienced owner because I want to learn all I can. I'm happy to take advice from people who know more than me even if it goes against what I previously believed. Since joining this forum I've changed my attitude regarding pet shops (I.E. there's no way I'm buying a rat from one...) and my rats' diet has improved dramatically. When I was new I felt a bit intimidated but soon realised people just want to help - sometimes it gets a little overenthusiastic.
> 
> Regarding the mothers and pregnancys didn't she leave one in the house while she went away somewhere and then she gave birth? Not saying that caused any of the bad things that happened but I would NEVER leave a sick or heavily pregnant rat with someone who wouldn't be willing to be hands on if necessary...
> 
> Yes there are more important things in life than whether elizabeth is a competent rat owner. But personally I love rats more than I can express and I will do everything in my power to make sure as many rats as possible have long, healthy and happy lives with the care they deserve!
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> that was a rant and a half... forgive me..


when i left jojo she had succesfully delivered 4 live bubs and was doing well. she probably just ate them because of stress or other common things. i still have the mom and she is perfectly healthy. i didnt know she was pregnant when i bought her because it was a blind buy... she was just brought to me with another female name coco. hershey on the other hand i bought knowing she was pregnant i saw her the day i bought her for $3. i did not know she wasnt capable to delivering successful. she did not seem like it was deadly as there was no visible blood, just a dead litter. i assumed it was a stillborn litter which is common... turned out it was internal bleeding and misshapen hips wich i couldnt have known because i saw no signs except normal looking birthing blood as some pople on here also said


----------



## Spoonrat

I did say that you leaving her didn't cause the problems... just that it seemed irresponsible. Personally I wouldn't want to leave a rat that had just given birth.. 



Spoonrat said:


> Not saying that caused any of the bad things that happened but I would NEVER leave a sick or heavily pregnant rat with someone who wouldn't be willing to be hands on if necessary...


See... I no lie lol


----------



## Elizabethm

*REMEMBER- this is about ashes litter not any other topic*

jojo was not heavily pregnant or sick. she was perfectly healthy and was delivering just fine. the litter was no bigger than 6 because her belly was so tiny

i was with hershey the whole time... i never leftt her side even when she died i held her and told her i wish it hadnt ended that way. i never had time to take her to the vet because i asked if the blood in her birth fluid looked to be too much, i was worried(i even posted pictures) the answer i got was "no it looks normal" ever since then ive been more against taking peoples advise. people have steared me with the wrong advice on here.

*i havent talked to the crooked vet who charges too much. this is another vet in training* i dont really ask him alot of questions as i dont talk to him much but the actual vet visit was real and taz is doing ok in quarintine so far

now stop posting what is irrelevent to ashes litter on this thread please. i have many other threads you can continue this on. stop trashing ashes thread up with stuff off topic


----------



## catsandscales

Speaking of Ashes, any more open eyes on those babies?


----------



## Elizabethm

*DAy 15*

i will get a picture posted in a few minutes for ya



















all 11 babies have their eyes open. the 4 dark hooded babies have black eyes. the 6 fawn and 1 beige baby have pink eyes


----------



## catsandscales

SO CUTE!! =D What's the breakdown of boys vs girls, or what's your best guess?


----------



## lilangel

Elizabethm said:


> * i never had time to take her to the vet because i asked if the blood in her birth fluid looked to be too much, i was worried(i even posted pictures) the answer i got was "no it looks normal" ever since then ive been more against taking peoples advise. people have steared me with the wrong advice on here.
> *



I have not posted much in your threads but this got me a bit. If in your mind you ever think something is wrong with your pets do *NOT* wait for advice from a forum go to the vet your self. Next time you might be able to save your pet instead of waiting for someone to post.

There the way you say this its like it is the people here on the forum fault because your rat died.


----------



## Elizabethm

i was not overly worried because when i posted for advise it didnt look like anything to worry about and the whole time there wasnt any change in amount of blood.

*this post is about ashes babies.*


----------



## Jaguar

blood spotting is normal... there was no way for us to tell without being there that she was bleeding internally or that there were complications. we have to base our theories on what information is given to us - as in the case of taz's eye... a photograph can only tell us so much. it helps to narrow down theories so you know what to expect, but you should know that our advice is not a replacement for a veterenarian's advice, just a compliment to it, because unfortunately, sometimes we know more than a lot of "qualified" vets do.


----------



## ema-leigh

> * i never had time to take her to the vet because i asked if the blood in her birth fluid looked to be too much, i was worried(i even posted pictures) the answer i got was "no it looks normal" ever since then ive been more against taking peoples advise. people have steared me with the wrong advice on here.
> *


That bugs me to, because its likely a lie. Do I really think you had a necropsy done or that the vets you say you took them to are knowledgeable enough to tell you something like that???? No. Your female had likely had a litter before due to her age with her feeder breeder - so I find the narrow hips to be HIGHLY UNLIKELY!!!!!!!!! The amount of blood posted was completely normal, if someone else posted the picture today I'd still stand by what I said. Babies likely got stuck and mom died of shock or something else... poor genes what ever. If she had internal bleeding - trust me you would of known about it and there would be a lot more blood than what was in the picture. All of your vets seem retarded and imaginary. I asked for a phone number, vets like this should not be in practice because rats ARE going to suffer and die. I'd love to call them and speak to them, whether it was a stand in vet or not.

I wasn't planning to reply to any of your posts anymore, but that comment really rubbed me the wrong way because I myself took time to respond to almost ALL of your threads now with what I consider good info. The reason why I feel I have to respond most of the time is because these threads DO come up in peoples research. Its to help other people as well, I feel its irresponsible for us to sugar coat things just because of ignorance. If something is wrong, it is wrong.

Take Taz's eye for example, what if someone reading the forum had a rat with a similar problem and chose to do the same treatment that Elizabeth is trying. No pain meds, sticking gel in their eye. The rat needs antibiotics and sufficient pain meds to prevent further damage to the eye.


----------



## Elizabethm

stop posting about things not involving ashes or her babies. you are trashing my post with unnesacery posts. keep it on track it is not important anymore. we all need to grow up and stop bickering. no wonder some people dont post more often... its cause of contstant bikkering that they have read or witnessed first hand. the topic is concidered closed to me so drop the subject


----------



## lilspaz68

Public forum dear, you opened the door. :


----------



## Elizabethm

lilspaz68 said:


> Public forum dear, you opened the door. :


*this is a thread for people to comment and give advise about Ashe's litter if they have any comments about ASHES not stuff that does not pertain to this subject. if you have comments then start a thread of your own or private message me*


----------



## kissmyhorse

You have been a part of this discussion the entire time. You didnt seem to have any problems discussing other topics when you felt you were on the "right" side of the convo. ::sigh:: reminds me of middle school :


----------



## catsandscales

Either way, this is her thread and she would like it to be back on topic. =P


----------



## Elizabethm

catsandscales said:


> Either way, this is her thread and she would like it to be back on topic. =P


yes please put this thread back on topic.

*posting/ thread rules are listed here for this website*
http://www.ratforum.com/index.php?topic=129.msg186484#new


----------



## Elizabethm

*sexes and availability: day 15*

if you want one reserve one now for december 1st.

*available boys (pink eyes) rex fur*









*available girls fawns have pink eyes the black and agoit have brown eyes rex fur*









*claimed by me*
Bambi(fawn), mochee (beige), shadow (black), gingersnap (agouti)


----------



## catsandscales

haha, good choice, one of each color XD


----------



## Elizabethm

*1 female claimed*

*agouti female claimed by catsandscales*


----------



## ema-leigh

The fawn babies eyes should be dark ruby  They are very cute, but they look very tiny and thin. How old are they now Elizabeth?


----------



## Elizabethm

they are 15 days old and have been practicing bouncing lately. yeah the fawns eyes are ruby colored... its gorgeous


----------



## ema-leigh

Do they all have short curly whiskers? Are any more curly than the others? In theory if both parents are double rex.. some of these bubs should have even less hair than their parents. I look forward to seeing their coats again in a few weeks.


----------



## Elizabethm

all seem to have really curly wiskers. im excited too i cant wait to see how their coats turn out. my agouti hooded bub gingersnap has a thining coat already. her head looks like its slightly balding... its adorable


----------



## ema-leigh

She may be one of the more hairless ones  I think it will be cute to see all their hooded markings on their skin as well when the hair does fall out.


----------



## Elizabethm

yeah jojo (another rat) is a hooded one who is completely hairless. i hope i get at least 1. the color is sooo cool


----------



## lilangel

ema-leigh said:


> She may be one of the more hairless ones  I think it will be cute to see all their hooded markings on their skin as well when the hair does fall out.


It would be cute to see too. I only had dark colored(i am guessing black) double rex/hairless girls once and thought it looked neat but having one hooded is cute


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

Awwww they're too cute. I'm so in love with Mochee, I adore her colors <3


----------



## toby

they are soooooo cute. :-*


----------



## Elizabethm

JaqandChewsmom said:


> Awwww they're too cute. I'm so in love with Mochee, I adore her colors <3


HIS. mochee is a boy and im glad you adore him.... me too. Toby: thank you


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

Elizabethm said:


> HIS. mochee is a boy and im glad you adore him.... me too. Toby: thank you


Ah oops, sorry. I mixed it up, and thought the boys were girls and vice versa :


----------



## catsandscales

Yay for holidays! Had some free time this morning and doodled this. Still haven't picked out a name, so until then, I give you my baby double rex agouti girl. XD


----------



## Spoonrat

Wow love the picture!


----------



## catsandscales

Thanks! =3


----------



## Lousark

Hi
It is highly unlikey that your babies are the result of a mating with a wild rat. I came aross this article whilst looking for other advice on this website :

'It is possible for domestic rats (Rattus norvegicus) to mate with roof rats (Rattus rattus) although the babies will not survive. '

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1804&aid=889

Lou


----------



## Elizabethm

Lousark said:


> Hi
> It is highly unlikey that your babies are the result of a mating with a wild rat. I came aross this article whilst looking for other advice on this website :
> 
> 'It is possible for domestic rats (Rattus norvegicus) to mate with roof rats (Rattus rattus) although the babies will not survive. '
> 
> http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1804&aid=889
> 
> Lou



yeah your a little late. we already know they arent crossed with wild rats. we have a feeling it was my male double rex TAZ because most of the babies have pink eyes and he was my only rat with pink eyes


----------



## wagz77

Man, if you only lived closer! They sure are cute.


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

catsandscales said:


> Yay for holidays! Had some free time this morning and doodled this. Still haven't picked out a name, so until then, I give you my baby double rex agouti girl. XD


Wow. If I had money I would ask you to make one of my ratty men! It looks amazing!


----------



## Elizabethm

lol  ;D


----------



## catsandscales

JaqandChewsmom said:


> Wow. If I had money I would ask you to make one of my ratty men! It looks amazing!


If you've got $15 it's done!


----------



## lilspaz68

None of your babies have pink eyes, you only have ruby and black. 

Cats - why can't you take 2 girls? Its always best to adopt babies in pairs for all sorts of reasons.

Your bubs look very scrawny for 15 days old, you need to really start feeding them up.

Lilith was only 7 weeks old at this time, she had 8 babies and even the double rexes or mock hairless boys, albeit smaller, were bigger than your babies.

Here they are at 14 days old...all nice chunky monkeys


----------



## Elizabethm

the color is not a big deal i have already been told ruby and if i say pink its a minor slip up not life or death.

if catsandscales wants only 1 female its her choice since it will be living with me and my 2 female bub until it is older anyways

their skinnyness is not my fault. i gave mom alot of high protien fatty food. the babies are healthy, bouncy and alert... now exploring water and solid foods


----------



## lilspaz68

Elizabethm said:


> the color is not a big deal i have already been told ruby and if i say pink its a minor slip up not life or death.
> 
> if catsandscales wants only 1 female its her choice since it will be living with me and my 2 female bub until it is older anyways
> 
> their skinnyness is not my fault. i gave mom alot of high protien fatty food. the babies are healthy, bouncy and alert... now exploring water and solid foods


Just a health concern for the bubs, easily corrected. I often made up oatmeal and using a food processor, mushed up a pile of healthy veggies (carrots, peas, spinach/kale or broccoli, red peppers, etc) mixed it with soy milk and the ratters thrived on it.

Well you were basing the fact that the baby eyes had pink eyes on Taz being the dad, when they don't. 

You asked me to keep on topic and I am, but you are being very deflective.


----------



## Elizabethm

sorry i again i get the terms wrong. the eye color on taz only shows up when i use a camara. then these must be ruby because they are too dark to be pink










i have a blender so i will do that and make then healthy chubby bubs. i think i have one little piglet girl because she looks like a sausage compared to the others... i just noticed that


----------



## catsandscales

lilspaz68 said:


> Cats - why can't you take 2 girls? Its always best to adopt babies in pairs for all sorts of reasons.


I only have space for one more, and I wanted to get a third anyway. =) I'm in the same area as Elizabeth, and it's true that trustworthy sources for rats as pets are hard to come by around here, and I wanted to help out with rehoming this litter. The two females I'm adopting from Rattie Ratz Rescue (that's a 3 1/2 hour drive for me...) are already a year apart, and the older one is getting up there... I wanted a third to make that transition easier. And if I can get my third rat from someone I know & whose set-up & other rats I've seen as opposed to a pet store, I'd rather do that. =)

Also, like Elizabeth said, she's going to keep her for a few extra weeks for me. She'll be around 2 or 3 months when I actually start introductions (unless she's still too small and can slip through my cage's bars... then we'll wait a little longer). =P

I wish I could take more but I lack space for a bigger cage in my house, and all the cage calculators say I can fit up to three rats comfortably. =( I live in a studio and we're pretty crammed with fish and hermit crabs as it is. Took a lot of re-arranging just to get my current cage to fit in here! XD


----------



## Elizabethm

lol and id be glad to hold her as long as you need ;D. she will be with 2 female litter mates, mom and 2 other young females. they will be perfectly fine. i put my black hooded female with my 2 older girls and they licked her, she followed them, and jojo tried to nurse her. i think an older rat is a good experiance if you have friendly females or a rat who lost a litter. female rats have motherly insticts so it helps alot


----------



## catsandscales

Yeah, I'm sure they'll be fine. =)


----------



## Elizabethm

im sure they will too. my rats are loving mommy like and im thinking that since you have a mother and daughter maybe they will be the same


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

catsandscales said:


> If you've got $15 it's done!


Sadly I don't have that atm... Perhaps soon though lol 

I wish my boys were as accepting as your ladies Elizabeth! It'd be cute to see some pics of your other ladies with the babies *hint*


----------



## catsandscales

JaqandChewsmom said:


> Sadly I don't have that atm... Perhaps soon though lol
> 
> I wish my boys were as accepting as your ladies Elizabeth! It'd be cute to see some pics of your other ladies with the babies *hint*


I hear ya... I'm trying to earn extra cash... been spending all my extra on pets. XD And my husband wouldn't mind but I know they're not a priority... so I try to stay in moderation but those impulse buys get the better of me (got three candy-cane chews for my soon-to-be girls from the petstore when all I went to get was a new heater for the hermit crabs!)

And I would love to see pics, too...


----------



## Elizabethm

*here are other females with the babies*

*here is coco and jojo- coco is a virgin. jojo lost a litter*


















*here is ashes and jojo*









everything went fine. jojo and ashes played with the bubs while coco mainly ate some pears lol. coco did not show much interest this time at one point coco was cleaning a babies bum but my camara wasnt fast enough


----------



## catsandscales

Aww! That's so cute how they all get along. =) Hope it's as easy with my girls. XD


----------



## Elizabethm

yeah i hope so too. i think females are more accepting than males sometimes. unless you get cranky possesive females lol. lets hope your girls arent cranky


----------



## catsandscales

All I have to go on is a petfinder post, but they sound like sweet little ladies to me, so I think there's a good chance that they'll get along right off the bat, but you never know...

I think it'll help that I'll be getting them all around the same time, so territories/what they're used to will still be pretty new...


----------



## Elizabethm

yup sounds like a good plan. and you should fully have your little fuzz butt by christmas lol. yay a christmas baby. that is why i named my agouti gingersnap


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

So cute! They must be patient with that many babies running around ;D



catsandscales said:


> I hear ya... I'm trying to earn extra cash... been spending all my extra on pets. XD And my husband wouldn't mind but I know they're not a priority... so I try to stay in moderation but those impulse buys get the better of me (got three candy-cane chews for my soon-to-be girls from the petstore when all I went to get was a new heater for the hermit crabs!)
> 
> And I would love to see pics, too...


I'm just looking to earn any amount of cash. Job searching is a pain. lol I do that when I've got money, I basically spend everything I have on the animals. We spent over $300 on the rats, when we had tax money :


----------



## Elizabethm

yeah i do the same. i learned to eat less so i can supply gyro, dove (who is going home with my dad this weekend), Elvira, and my 16 rats with the right amount of food each feeding. occasionally i ask my mom to supply cat food and kitty litter so i can feed the other animals she doesnt know about (dove, rats, tarantula) using the very little cash i get (about $40 a month from lawn mowing at my dads)


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

Yep, I'm lucky I still have my mom, who buys everything for my pets atm. Otherwise I dunno what I'd be doing :-\


----------



## lilspaz68

catsandscales said:


> Yay for holidays! Had some free time this morning and doodled this. Still haven't picked out a name, so until then, I give you my baby double rex agouti girl. XD


do you have any other ratty pics you have done? I might get one done through you.


----------



## catsandscales

I do have more but I'm having trouble with my photobucket... =P I just did another one this morning and was going to do another for examples and then post an ad on here and goosemoose. XD

Meanwhile, here's a link to my other random artworks: http://www.catsandscales.deviantart.com (YAY shameless plug!)

I'll post the other one ASAP in a new thread.


----------



## lilspaz68

let me know when they are up...btw I absolutely love Autumn Sentinel, I keep expecting it to move and its very noble.


----------



## catsandscales

Thanks so much! =D

Here's my new thread! I put it under general...
http://www.ratforum.com/index.php/topic,24388.msg187202.html#msg187202


----------



## ema-leigh

Baby cereal is really great for fattening up bubs!! High protien and fatty foods can actually have the opposite effect and make them loose weight, if its poor quality fat/protien.


----------



## Elizabethm

ah thank you


----------



## Elizabethm

*DAY 19*










catsandscales- your girl is looking up at the camara


----------



## Jaguar

they're so cute but soooo skinny... they need some serious supplimenting  (holy alliteration lol)


----------



## Elizabethm

Jaguar said:


> they're so cute but soooo skinny... they need some serious supplimenting  (holy alliteration lol)


yeah im working on that. i bought meat and veggie flavored baby food and also im giving them corn flakes so they can chew on something harder


----------



## Jaguar

baby food will probably just give them diarrhea right now, and it's mostly water so it's not really nutritionally dense. if you can get some sort of meal replacement formula like boost or ensure from a department or drug store or even nutrical from a pet store or vet, that would be much better. even human grade baby formula would work. if you want to give them something hard, give them some crushed up chunks of a good lab block or mush it in some oatmeal or soak them in soy milk  corn flakes aren't the greatest because of the sugar so make sure they're just a very occasional treat.


----------



## Rhasputin

Ohhh yeah they're skinny. Your mom rat is probably not getting all the nutrition she needs to feed those guys. :-[

What is she eating now?


----------



## catsandscales

Awww! So cute! =D


----------



## Elizabethm

oxbow lab blocks for rats. ok i will get some ensure for them


----------



## Rhasputin

I am a firm believer that rodent blocks are garbage. 
I always recommend home made food for rodents.

Get your rats a bag of oats, barley, holistic dog food, brown rice, and some seed and they'll be good to go. Chicken and egg is great for your nursing mother. Get her some of that asap!


----------



## Elizabethm

ok i will


----------



## ema-leigh

Can you get a size comparison of the bubs? say to your hand or a coin? They do look incredibly tiny, have you been monitoring their weight gain at all? 

Heres one of my one week old babies and she was the smallest in her litter:









If your going to feed a meal replacement drink, like ensure mix in some oats or crushed lab blocks to give them as much 'good fat' as you can. Being a good weight is crucial for a baby to give them the best possible start in life health and immunity wise. 

I would stop with the corn flakes completely. Not only is there sugar (which can really upset a babies system)... but corn and its been flaked! So even less nutrients left in it than fresh corn lol. Stick with good quality grains like oats, wheat, rye, quinoa, barley, bran etc.

They are very cute though, what age are they now? If their hairs already thinning they are gonna be pretty darn hairless


----------



## Elizabethm

19 days old now and catsandscales baby girl is definantly thining faster than the others. but they are all thing too just slower


----------



## lilspaz68

The double rex babies will always look smaller but your babies are too thin. They should have bellies and be wider and more mature looking. I would've guessed them at 15 days of age not 19 days old.

These babies are 18 days old










and 20 days old









Baby cereal/Ensure for the wee ones, veggies, lab blocks, bits of egg and chicken for mom. She also will dive into the cereal/ensure.


----------



## Elizabethm

ok i will do all of that today ;D. yay ive been worried about why they havent been putting on weight


----------



## ema-leigh

How are the babies doing?

May I ask why you posted an ad for them on a reptile forum? 

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208824

Would you really sell your babies to a reptile breeder full well knowing they'll only want to turn a quick profit on them? I know you say pet only, but for $10 snake owners WOULD pay that much if they thought they could mass breed them and sell their offspring to pet stores to turn a profit. :-\

And say they are ''high quality''.. bred for ''color, temperament and health'' ??? ??? Whoever purchases these babies are in for heartbreak and medical bills realistically. 

And you opened an in home rescue and have others? Gah... you don't have the cage space/vet funds for more rattums.


----------



## Rhasputin

The plot thickens.


----------



## Spoonrat

Oh my God... I hate to say this but I kinda feel sorry for all of Elizabeth's rats...


----------



## lilangel

ema-leigh said:


> How are the babies doing?
> 
> May I ask why you posted an ad for them on a reptile forum?
> 
> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208824
> 
> Would you really sell your babies to a reptile breeder full well knowing they'll only want to turn a quick profit on them? I know you say pet only, but for $10 snake owners WOULD pay that much if they thought they could mass breed them and sell their offspring to pet stores to turn a profit. :-\
> 
> And say they are ''high quality''.. bred for ''color, temperament and health'' ??? ??? Whoever purchases these babies are in for heartbreak and medical bills realistically.
> 
> And you opened an in home rescue and have others? Gah... you don't have the cage space/vet funds for more rattums.


  :'(


----------



## blenderpie

Of all of the sites to advertise your babies, you choose a REPTILE FORUM? What makes you think that anyone on those forums would even be interested in rats as pets?

Most rat rescues would allow you to pay a small fee (like 20 dollars) or even freely allow you to post your oops litter under their rescue on petfinder. That would be the place to search for the right people. You claim to love your rats so much, and no one questions your big heart, but your actions don't match with your words.

If you truly loved your rats, you wouldn't dream of even typing that website into your browser in efforts to talk them, let alone sell them. And on the basis that ten dollars is less than what ratteries charge is an awful thing to do. It appeals to the uneducated buyer who will think "what a deal!" rather than "I'm going to be a genetic mess." The irresponsibility that you display here makes me so angry at times.

You've said that you have had money problems and yet you advertised that you had opened an in home rescue? If you can at times not afford the proper vet care for your CURRENT rats, why in the world would you open your home to more? It's not about you not having good intentions, it's about you being unable to follow through with them.


----------



## Rhasputin

The lying about being bred for temperment, color and health part, really gets me. :


----------



## Jaguar

oh, this is quite wonderful. and you guys also didn't see that she gave away her guinea pig because she "had no space" for it. that's where the blue cage in her other post is from. no space for a single guinea pig, but tons of space to open a rat rescue when her cages for her existing rats are tiny... oh man...


----------



## digitalangel

http://savearat.webs.com/apps/webstore/
http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1529672.html


----------



## Jaguar

argh, every time i see pictures of those babies i see how skinny and starved they look and can't possibly imagine how she could lie and tell people that they're "bred for health, temperament and color" after we SPECIFICALLY told her to advise people of the awful genetic background of these rats. :-\


----------



## Nekopan

Especially considering the father of the litter just died at what, 7 months old?


----------



## Jaguar

well, the suspected father, anyway. but given the circumstances, it's plausible that the entire thing wasn't an accident, in which case she would know for sure.

anyways, she's not going to be back here for a while. i advise anyone who has accounts on these various places she's advertising to post links directing to her threads here just so they have a heads up of what they're getting into.


----------



## Rhasputin

"All rats here get high quality food"

Like Corn flakes!? ???


----------



## Spoonrat

I'm in a state of disbelief. I mean seriously - how hard has everyone tried to help and advise this person?? ??? And she just doesn't listen to what anybody says.  It brings tears to my eyes seeing how skinny those babies are. :-[ :'( I don't care who you are - anyone could see that they are not even close to being healthy babies. And now she wants to run a rescue?? :-\

I just don't get it at all. What goes on in some people's heads? It's just so sad  

It's difficult to describe just how angry, sick and upset this situation makes me.. those poor, poor rats. Just goes to show really doesn't it how important it is NOT to breed feeder or pet shop rats and why we shouldn't buy such animals in the first place..

She claims to love her rats and yet she's selling them on a reptile forum... ummm yes... says it all really doesn't it..


----------



## Rhasputin

It gets even worse, lol.

she had a TINY hamster sized cage on her website, for sale that had the description 'This can fit 3 females' and I think she said it had 2 females in it currently. 

I commented on it, and said it can't even properly house ONE female, and she commented back. But before I could even read the whole comment, she deleted the photo, and all the comments!

I wouldn't care half as much about this, if I wasn't getting some enjoyment out of seeing someone who bitched at me about health (when it wasn't necessary), going down because she can't take care of her rats. There's some kind of poetic irony there, and I'm not afraid to admit that.


----------



## lilspaz68

Well at least I don't have to keep my mouth shut so as not to hurt her feelings anymore.


----------



## ema-leigh

Can anyone honestly say they are surprised though? Her posts were always so flaky and strange. I would reply on the snake forum, but I don't have an account and I don't think it would make much difference to them.. I was just researching for double rex and by like the 10th page of google the ad she had posted randomly showed up and I recognized the picture of her babies because she always had them in that cake pan lol. I can't begin to list the amount of errors, lies and contradicting information shes put on her web site.... but what kind of rescue says this :-\



> * i can not take in rats with these ailments. you would need to see a vet-
> 
> massive puncture wounds, respiratory issues, broken legs, head tilt (usually means an ear infection). smelly discharge from genitals, excessive unnatural sneezing


.... basically admitting she unwilling to be responsible for any medical care for her animals. Elizabethm doom on you!


----------



## JennBell

This is making me want to keep all 8 of my babies


----------



## lilspaz68

JennBell said:


> This is making me want to keep all 8 of my babies


be very careful when adopting out your rats...google names, read previous posts (all of them) to get an idea of a person's care/abilities, get them to fill out an adoption application, screen, screen, screen!!


----------



## blenderpie

I can't help but feeling like those rats need rescuing from her rescue. 

She's also mentioned a few times before that she had allergies, which is why she has hairless. Why would she then take in normal rats? She said on her site that she had recently acquired a blue hooded male and that he was a "keeper" so it seems to me that she's hoarding more than rescuing. 

And the fact that she got rid of a guinea pig that a friend trusted her to take care of for a small cage for a "rat rescue" seems incredibly irresponsible. Especially when she said that she advertised him at $8 so that he wouldn't go as reptile food. First off, that's not very much to ensure that. Secondly, it basically implies that as long as they aren't eaten, she could care less as to where her animals are placed. That disgusts me. 

Another thing that really bothers me was her use of the word "buy" on all of her advertisements. I feel like, as a rescue, she should be using the word adopt. But I just have a vendetta about the idea of "buying" animals anyway. I like to think that you aren't buying the animal, which has a soul (it just makes me think of slavery or something) Rather, I'm paying for the care that that animal had received and the cost of care for its parents. 

But I refuse to believe that a mentally healthy person could both adopt and lose so many animals in such a short amount of time if she is truly keeping her animals as she claims. Poor genetics can't explain ALL of her rats being thin or her lack of response when her rats needed vet care. One of my rats has poor genetics (well chances are, all of them since the two babies are from a rat rescue that took an oops litter) and yet, when kept in clean and spacious cages, on proper food, and with daily exercise, they're healthy and loving.


----------



## lilangel

> http://savearat.webs.com/allaboutpawsandclaws.htm
> 
> This is All About Paws and Claws
> 
> Rats i Cant Accept
> 
> i cant accept rats here who have these ailments due to the fact that i dont have the funds for surgeries.
> 
> 1. prolonged respritory issues
> 2. deep puncture wounds
> 3. discharge from genitalia
> 4. freshly broken limbs
> 
> 
> Rats i Can Accept- healthy or i can make a low cost vet visit for these ailments
> 
> 1. mites
> 2. head tilt
> 3. skin irritations


*bangs head* Running a rescue but can not help other then getting ok rats? I for one know you can not pick & choose who you want in the rescue (well i guess you can but gives your rescue a very bad name from the start) I pity the poor animals that will go into her care


----------



## Spoonrat

There's just no hope is there? :-\


----------



## Kiko

Nope......what about that person who was adopting a baby, they were on this site. I REALLY hope they reconsider.


----------



## Rhasputin

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210027

Sent by an anonymous person who saw the info on her post selling the rats. 
More info on her flakiness and personality and responsibility issues.


----------



## Rhasputin

Annnnd here's some more
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180634

put a fork in her. She's done.


----------



## Jaguar

she's really earned herself a nice reputation there too, huh? i hope someone from there finds all the posts she made here.


----------



## blenderpie

I sort of wonder if she has some sort of problem. As much as I want to help animals, I know that I am in no place to open my own rescue. So should she. Why doesn't she just volunteer at her local shelter?

Her impulsive behavior and pathological lying are more similar to a person of nine or ten rather than 18 or 20. She's repeatedly said that she neither has the funds nor the space for more animals, but now she has a rat as well as a ball python rescue? Things just aren't adding up. The animals she has aren't even properly cared for, how does she expect herself to do more? I have three rats that share the same play time and, as a full time college student myself, it takes a lot of time figuration to make sure that everyone is out and has attention. (I usually have long playtimes. Making an hour on busy days isn't hard) I can't imagine her having to do multiple shifts as she's as busy with her studies and work as she claimed in her forum about the bearded dragons. (although she is only registered for 12 credits, the minimum to receive financial aid). 

I almost wonder if some sort of organization should be contacted. If her animals are improperly cared for, perhaps a rescue could help her take her numbers down to a mischief that's more manageable for her so that she CAN take proper care of them. And preferably a mischief of all one gender. 

I used to not have a doubt in my mind that her heart was in the right place, and that she loved her animals, but after all of the evidence that's been presented here I'm wondering if that's even true.


----------



## JennBell

She breeds Balls also???? Male+female rats in tiny cages plus a snake owner???


----------



## Mom2Chewbacca_and_Jaqotay

I joined her site, after she asked me to. I thought it was just forums not a rescue, I should have actually looked before I joined. She seemed nice enough, so seeing all this is kind of a shock.


----------



## catsandscales

She doesn't have any snakes at all, actually. =P


----------



## Jaguar

yes she does.

"i realized this during this week when i bought a male orange ghost with a kink."

"i have my healthy ball pythons seperated from where the defective ones will be. these are the snakes i currently have or will arrive this week if you want to know

ALREADY HAVE
male/female pastel- healthy-will be bred
normal male/female-healthy-will be bred
het pied male- coming this week-healthy-will be bred
male and female het albino- coming in two weeks- healthy-will be bred
nonvisible KINKED male orange ghost- coming this week-will not be bred"


----------



## JennBell

I joined to before I realized it was her site, I though she was just advertising there or something. I can honestly say that I don't have a problem with people breeding for feeding purposes and I don't mind people breeding for pet quality either as long as they know what they are doing and are honest. What she is producing though is not even food quality babies  People choose healthy active feeders with clear eyes and shiny coats.


----------



## lilspaz68

JennBell said:


> She breeds Balls also???? Male+female rats in tiny cages plus a snake owner???


did anyone notice this??

all people should be aware that I DO NOT OWN OR BREED SNAKES OF ANY KIND. you are welcome to come and have a tour yourself to see the residents here which only include, 1 cat, numerous rats, and 1 tarantula. the rats here at paws and claws are guarenteed 100% safe from being feeders and i hope my detailed adoption form with deter that too


----------



## Kiko

Hooo boy lol. This is pretty bad.

And I hope Catsandcandles is not biased because she is getting a rat from her. Look at the signs....don't be blinded by biased.


----------



## catsandscales

Well, none of the snakes she supposedly has are at her house... =P I've been there a couple of times, but I just met her, so don't hold me to that, either. XD

Just trying to help separate truth from lies. =/


----------



## Kiko

She said she lives in a small apartment with her BF, and some stuff about her dads house.

I suggest you try getting a rat elsewhere. Those rats are not healthy :/


----------



## hansloas

Oh wow, this has blown up a lot since I lost internet a day ago. Did she get blocked from the forums or something?


----------



## leesha

Poor babies.  I hope for the best for them.


----------



## Jaguar

i don't like to divulge in ban info in public but yes, she was suspended for a while, as i'm sure everyone can tell.

originally, it was on the basis of her spamming her "rescue" site in private messages, which was reported to me by someone, and obviously by the replies on this thread they're not the only one that got the spam. when i confronted her about it and asked her not to do that, she went off at me for "screening private messages" and whatever else. that was a short post-only suspension, but while that was in effect, all this stuff came out, and for sake of explosion prevention, i increased that ban time to long enough for her to hopefully smarten up before she returns.


----------



## Spoonrat

Oh God... it just gets worse!! What the **** is going on? Everything she says is lies! Those POOR rats... I just wish I could magically transport myself and rescue all of her animals. She's either a bad person or completely insane. I mean really - her behaviour is NOT normal!!!!!

It just makes me so sad! :'(


----------



## lilspaz68

I have advised catsandscales on her baby. I think she should still pick up her wee one, but much sooner than later. She can mesh a cage instead of waiting for her to be big enough. She's aware of the potential health of her sweetie and doesn't want to waste time not having her with her, knowing it could possibly be a short life.


----------



## Kiko

Thats very nice 
Do it for the rats not the people! haha


----------



## catsandscales

Kiko said:


> Thats very nice
> Do it for the rats not the people! haha


Thanks, Kiko! And thanks Lilspaz. 

In my defense, this whole conversation difficult for me because I know her personally... it's a lot easier to be outspoken on the internet when you haven't ever really met them (and frankly if I only knew her online things would be different). I've told her that I basically agree with you guys on most of the points you've all made. But at the same time she's a human being and I'm not gonna stop being a friend to her, or turn around and berate her because she has different views on rat care (you all have that covered, anyway). =P I'm also going to try to defend her when I can (like about the snake situation... not about having a rescue or breeding rats that were from the feeder bin. She already knows I don't agree with those decisions). I'm not planning on helping her out more than I already have, simply because I don't think she should be rescuing new rats.

Anyway, I want to remain a peaceful member of this forum and keep my friend too. I like it here, you guys have good ideas and info and I want to be able to be a part of that when I (FINALLY) get my own rats (rescues from Rattie Ratz and then this baby that I'm still going to get from Elizabeth) in December. I hope ya'll understand. =]


----------



## Kiko

Thank you for being civil!
It's when people get angry and bitter when fights break loose and we have to intervene.
I really appreciate the maturity.


----------



## catsandscales

Thank you, Kiko. =) (One of the rats I'm adopting is named Civil, haha) XD

It's easy to see how things get heated so fast... especially when the things you care a lot about are being threatened in some way. =\


----------



## MoreliaRach

I saw the OP posting on a snake forum, and wanted to pop in here to say a couple of things.

a) Not all snake people assume that someone's pet rat is great snake food
b) smart snake owners constantly have to deal with many stereotypes that rodent owners have to deal with as well. Please don't label all of us as sickos who enjoy watching rats die.

Yes, snakes need to eat, and I buy from a great rat breeder who feeds his rats great diet and euthanizes them humanely. 
c) The OP is a complete idiot. her posts on snake forums and this forum as well has proven it. People like her need to crash and burn and sell off all their animals because the few functioning brain cells they have fizzle out.

That said. I like rats. I kept a rat for a while, until I gave him to a young girl who would enjoy him more than myself. I could have easily euthanized him and fed him to my snakes. But he was a pet.


----------



## Jaguar

sarah19, we don't talk about that here. 

and moreliarach, we understand that. it's just sad that such an overwhelming majority of snake owners don't go about it the right way.


----------



## MoreliaRach

Unfortunately there is an unfair bias to people who deviate from owning cats and dogs. I think small furries make great pets. I mean, how can anyone not be charmed by the spunky personality of a Chinnie? Or how smart rats are?

Anyway. It's not BRILLIANT to advertise on a reptile forum that there are rats for sale. I can understand being upset. :-\


----------



## sarah19

Jaguar said:


> sarah19, we don't talk about that here.
> 
> and moreliarach, we understand that. it's just sad that such an overwhelming majority of snake owners don't go about it the right way.


oh sorry just though i was ask as i hoped it was done quickly and was worried about typing it in on the internt incase i got horrible stuff up because i get upset easily


----------



## Kiko

Lol quite a few people here have snakes.
Including myself. I have, love and adore my Ball Python. And obviously love rats to xD


----------



## Deborahbroadus

Kiko said:


> Lol quite a few people here have snakes.
> Including myself. I have, love and adore my Ball Python. And obviously love rats to xD


I was hestitant to post till I saw this! Thanks! 

I had done quite a bit of research before getting into breeding my own rats for the BPs I produce and own. I don't keep them as pets, but I would be able anyday to compare my fatties (babies) and ease of handling to any rat that is kept as a pet.

I mainly visit forums like this to see if there's anything new about diet or upkeep and diseases that I should be aware of in rats.

I, too, came across Elizabeth on the reptile forum and had already had her pegged as a possible liar that wanted free animals to breed without putting in the investiment of money and time needed to do the job right. 

Some of her other posts where she contradicted herself convinced me that she was not all she presented herself to be and is very sneaky in a lot of ways. To those that visited her house: BPs are very easy to hide, they only need a tub that can be easily consealed under a bed or in a shed or even smaller tubs stacked in a trashcan on top of each other with heat packs. The fact that the visitor didn't see the snakes when she visited just shows (imo) the depth to which Elizabeth is willing go to keep up her fake front.


----------



## catsandscales

Yeah, that's possible. She's adept at hiding stuff in her house. =P But I don't think she's breeding for food, because her rats or bubs haven't been disappearing. She also explained to me that she has snakes being held for her by friends in some cases. I still don't think she has any at her house. =\


----------



## lilspaz68

catsandscales said:


> Yeah, that's possible. She's adept at hiding stuff in her house. =P But I don't think she's breeding for food, because her rats or bubs haven't been disappearing. She also explained to me that she has snakes being held for her by friends in some cases. I still don't think she has any at her house. =\


I thought the BP was at her dad's place? 

Deborah, I loved how you lambasted her on the fauna forum. Must ask, what the heck is a BOI? LOLOLOL


----------



## Deborahbroadus

lilspaz68 said:


> catsandscales said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's possible. She's adept at hiding stuff in her house. =P But I don't think she's breeding for food, because her rats or bubs haven't been disappearing. She also explained to me that she has snakes being held for her by friends in some cases. I still don't think she has any at her house. =\
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the BP was at her dad's place?
> 
> Deborah, I loved how you lambasted her on the fauna forum. Must ask, what the heck is a BOI? LOLOLOL
Click to expand...

I was bad, I am not normally so harsh, but she had gotten on my last nerve trying to slam a business when her own ethics were none too clean.

The BOI stands for Board of Inquiry. It was orignally established to help the reptile community police it's business practices and root out scammers. Someone with more history on the BOI may chime in later.


----------



## kissmyhorse

I'm so friggin irritated! I got banned for 2 days from Fauna for posting on Elizabeths babies and why no one should buy them.. my own stupidity because I didnt read the second page and the mods asked ppl to take this subjct to the BOI. STILL I was just trying to warn people and see that no one ended up with one of these babies. UGHHHHHHHH no good deed ever goes unpunished. ::frustration::


----------



## Deborahbroadus

kissmyhorse said:


> I'm so friggin irritated! I got banned for 2 days from Fauna for posting on Elizabeths babies and why no one should buy them.. my own stupidity because I didnt read the second page and the mods asked ppl to take this subjct to the BOI. STILL I was just trying to warn people and see that no one ended up with one of these babies. UGHHHHHHHH no good deed ever goes unpunished. ::frustration::


That is true. No good deed ever goes unpunished. LOL But I take comfort in the fact that neither do the bad deeds. lol At least, it's only two days.

Being banned from Fauna isn't all that, really ;D. The bans have lost their power because the Mods/owner seem to be really banning because they don't feel like being bothered weeding out who's actually making mistakes and encouraging them to read the rules and who's simply there to be trolling or attacking.

They are also seriously undermanned.


----------



## Kiko

Ugh! If anyone here has an account on goosemoose could we please tell them whats going on here?
It's making me sick to know that she is doing this over there to.

here is a link to her Thread. http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4077579.0

If your gonna post, PLEASE be calm and civil. As a mod I know how hectic it can be to keep members calm.


----------



## lilangel

oh my she says they have "fatten up" but some to me look bloated or maybe its just my eyes. I certainly hope for those babies they are doing ok and some to me look like megacolon but could also be by just being fed i guess?

They are certainly very cute babies and i do hope they go to safe loving homes.


----------



## Kiko

I see that some of them are being adopted. I just hate to see people adopt rats without knowing more. Yes they need homes, but the owners should know that are getting ill rats.


----------



## Kiko

I told the people over at GM the truth, hopefully they read this and see for themselves.


----------



## lilspaz68

Kiko said:


> I told the people over at GM the truth, hopefully they read this and see for themselves.


Kiko, when the mods see this its going to be removed. Dirty Laundry and links to other threads are NOT allowed on Goosemoose, otherwise I would've done it myself. Lets hope enough people see it before its removed and you get a reprimand.

You didn't post in her adoption thread did you? No conversation in Adoptions, some of the rules are tough, but they are unanimous.

Those babies look like they have severe failure to thrive. Big heads skinny torsos, bulgy bellies...


----------



## JennBell

Am I the only one who saw the black baby that looked like it was missing an inch or so of it's tail???


----------



## Deborahbroadus

JennBell said:


> Am I the only one who saw the black baby that looked like it was missing an inch or so of it's tail???


I noted but didn't comment on the fact that she stated one tail was "accidentally" degloved. One picks up a rat by the tail and the rat twists until the tail is degloved. For one claiming to be a rat lover, picking it up by the tail (something that even I know rats dislike) should be a no-no should it not?

I don't know of another way for a rat tail to be degloved?


----------



## lilangel

Other ways to have a tail degloved is it got stuck somewhere between bars,caught in the door of the cage(say she closed the door on it) um another rat bite the tail( seeing as in her other posts she has babies and mom in a small cage then the small cage is in a tiny bit bigger cage with rats on the outside of the small cage)









Edited for typos


----------



## Deborahbroadus

lilangel said:


> Other ways to have a tail degloved is it got stuck somewhere between bars,caught in the door of the cage(say she closed the door on it) um another rat bite the tail( seeing as in her other posts she has babies and mom in a small cage then the small cage is in a tiny bit bigger cage with rats on the outside of the small cage)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edited for typos


Thanks for that information.


----------



## Deborahbroadus

lilangel said:


> oh my she says they have "fatten up" but some to me look bloated or maybe its just my eyes. I certainly hope for those babies they are doing ok and some to me look like megacolon but could also be by just being fed i guess?
> 
> They are certainly very cute babies and i do hope they go to safe loving homes.


There's a bowl of mash behind her in one of the pictures, I am assuming that they just fed and are not normally that bloated. Just fed to make them look fatter for the pictures is the assumption I am going under and the way she backpeddles so much, I could be wrong about that, too! :


----------



## Kiko

I did not post in the adoption thread, I wad temped but I know the rules. 

I just did not want the people getting rats from her without at least knowing she is a liar breeding ill rats.
If i get in trouble I get in trouble :/ At least I feel better knowing that she is not dooping people lol.


----------



## Kiko

I won't get banned though right?
:/ I don't want to be banned on Goosemoose that site is the only way I can look at excessive amounts of pretty hammocks and cage pictures and get tons of advice in under 5 minutes lmao xD


----------



## lilspaz68

Kiko said:


> I won't get banned though right?
> :/ I don't want to be banned on Goosemoose that site is the only way I can look at excessive amounts of pretty hammocks and cage pictures and get tons of advice in under 5 minutes lmao xD


Nope they just have a warning system. You'll be fine. 

And now that thread is taking off!!!


----------



## Kiko

Seriously. I am glad people saw.
Why does she think she is right and all of us are mean rat-crazed anti-breeding lunatics. 
If hundreds of people have a firm belief usually it's for a reason xD
If she had been honest she would have still been in trouble with us for the sheer ignorance of the act, but significantly less trouble.


----------



## eluin

I don't know, but I'm glad it came into the light over there. I was one of the ones gushing over how cute her babies were until I got a heads up. Spent most of last night reading over her back posts here and I'm just... shocked I guess. And disgusted. And confused. All rolled into one. And her story on GM contradicts pretty much everything she's said here. I'm still trying to figure out if the father of the litter is alive or dead. Or if she pulled some kind of ratty resurrection. Thanks for letting us GMers know. 

And thanks for reminding me I had an account here. I'd completely forgotten that there were more rattie pictures and stories I needed to be squeeing over.


----------



## Spoonrat

Ok so Taz isn't dead??? After we gave her our condolences for her loss?!?! This girl is seriously messed up...


----------



## Kiko

I think taz IS dead and she is lying about him still being alive :/


----------



## xxdotmyeyes

This is my first time posting in this thread as I don't get involved in internet debates, and when I saw this posted I knew that's exactly where this was going because of who posted it and reading about her past. But I did want to let you guys know to check out the goosemoose thread, she finally told ONE truth, these babies were bred on purpose.  I want to go ratnap them all! But I'm not in any position to do take in any more ratties right now! It's just such a sad situation :-(


----------



## lilspaz68

Kiko said:


> I think taz IS dead and she is lying about him still being alive :/


I totally agree!

Now its FOUR babies who were degloved???


----------



## Kiko

DOn't worry, most of us have a close eye on the Goosemoose thread 
at least myself and lilspaz do.


----------



## lilspaz68

Kiko said:


> DOn't worry, most of us have a close eye on the Goosemoose thread
> at least myself and lilspaz do.


It's like watching an accident on the road, you don't want to look but can't help it... :


----------



## Kiko

This really bothers me. I can handle people being ignorant and refusing to believe pine is bad, people thinking 1 rat is fine even after we tell them it's not.

But breeding unhealthy rats when you KNOW it's bad, letting them get wounded, letting young mothers die and her babies die.....it irks me. UGH


----------



## lilspaz68

We will have to be careful not to tagteam too much though...keep it on point, never insult personally, etc.


----------



## lilspaz68

Kiko said:


> This really bothers me. I can handle people being ignorant and refusing to believe pine is bad, people thinking 1 rat is fine even after we tell them it's not.
> 
> But breeding unhealthy rats when you KNOW it's bad, letting them get wounded, letting young mothers die and her babies die.....it irks me. UGH


Elizabeth can come to every fork in a road and always picks the wrong way...not a lick of sense...


----------



## Spoonrat

lilspaz68 said:


> It's like watching an accident on the road, you don't want to look but can't help it... :


So true


----------



## Kiko

Yep I have avoided any cursing, name calling, and personal attacks.

I said I think she enjoys breeding these rats, and i think it came of as personal. I meant it more as a personal note that she gets so excited to see these young mothers get pregnant and give birth.

Being a MOD has shown me that being harsh, mean or personal gets no where...and makes it a pain for the MODS lol.


----------



## Spoonrat

I was about to say I can't believe it was intentional breeding. But actually it was obvious from the start really wasn't it - with the vague story about family cleaning them out and her supposedly not noticing the pregnancy....

*sigh*


----------



## lilspaz68

And now stop for awhile...let others take over for a bit 

Try not to draw attention to yourself with the Mods.


----------



## Kiko

Noted.
I'll chill out for a while. Let the other members speak their peace.


----------



## kissmyhorse

::sigh:: I have so much to say about this, but really all I want to do is cry for those ratties and scream :'(


----------



## lilspaz68

kissmyhorse said:


> ::sigh:: I have so much to say about this, but really all I want to do is cry for those ratties and scream :'(


I've already done a lot of that already


----------



## Deborahbroadus

Kiko said:


> I think taz IS dead and she is lying about him still being alive :/


You may be right. To me, it's a dead giveaway when someone says, something about posting a current pic and then does not. It seems to indicate that time is needed to set something up. :

I haven't commented anywhere else because I don't want to come across as "stalking" her (a friend led me to this forum when she saw Elizabeth trying the same thing here that she was doing on Fauna). She's wrong and seems to be the type that won't ever admit it, as such, I fear for any animal under her care and the genetics that she will allow out in BPs and Rats.


----------



## TamSmith

lilspaz68 said:


> And now stop for awhile...let others take over for a bit
> 
> Try not to draw attention to yourself with the Mods.


haha lilspaz68, I love you. I'm glad you guys are taking good care of this situation the best you can. I just get too emotionally charged to be of any help.


----------



## xxdotmyeyes

This whole situation just saddens me so much! I could understand some of the situations she's gotten herself into, if she didn't KNOW any better, but it's obvious she does. She has read what everyone has to say on the situation and she just doesn't care. These are rat forums, and there are plenty of experienced people on here who know what they're talking about (myself excluded since I'm new to rats) and she's just ignoring it all. I worry about all her other animals as well :-(. And like I said when I threw my two cents in with my own "BYB" story:

"My thoughts on the subject is I didn't lie because I didn't know what I was doing was wrong, if you have to lie, you know you're doing something wrong. I didn't lie because I was willing to listen to what people had to say, you were obviously unwilling. Just my thoughts on the subject from someone who's "been there" to a certain extent minus the lies."

And with her "rescue" i'm sure there are going to be so many more "accidental" litters.


----------



## lilspaz68

The only good thing about these threads is that no matter if she says "you're all meanie-poo-poo heads, I'm leaving, not gonna post no more!"...she always comes back to stick both feet back in her mouth.


----------



## kissmyhorse

Wwwwwwwhattttt the heck is going on????? I'm banned from MG and I've never even posted there!!!!!!


----------



## lml8787

I have been closely following this whole thread, and also a little of the goosmoose and fauna links posted on here. I haven't wanted to state my opinion as I think all of you who are way more experienced and knowledgable than me have definitely handled that lol! Also the fact that I am probably the most non-confrontational person in the world ......but I just wanted to point out one thing that could come out good of this sad and horrible situation....hopefully she has learned her lesson after being scolded for all of her wrongdoings on all these forums and without that, she would continue to do it over and over again. Hopefully now it won't and she has truly learned her lesson. even if it is wishful thinking.


----------



## Kiko

kissmyhorse said:


> Wwwwwwwhattttt the heck is going on????? I'm banned from MG and I've never even posted there!!!!!!


What is MG? Do you mean GM as in Goosemoose?


----------



## kissmyhorse

lol yea. I was typing really fast :


----------



## lilspaz68

kissmyhorse said:


> lol yea. I was typing really fast :


Did you get a things saying you were banned? Or you couldn't log on after registering?


----------



## kissmyhorse

it keep sayng my login has been blocked and to cntact an administrator, which idk how to do. i dont get it, its never done this before ???


----------



## smesyna

kissmyhorse said:


> it keep sayng my login has been blocked and to cntact an administrator, which idk how to do. i dont get it, its never done this before ???


PM me your GM name and I will PM a moderator for you.

I am just sick to my stomach over this. You should see the disgusting dirty *hasmter* cages, all the rats her "rescue" has gathered, they are all sickly and way too skinny like the babies.


----------



## kissmyhorse

Thanks so much! My GM name is the same as my name here lol

I know.. I saw the cages.. They are all so cramped and bare and dingy... like they only get cleaned every few weeks. That last one looked like it had a layer of rust and grime on the bottom harboring who knows what kinds of bacteria! This whole situation disgusts me :-X


----------



## eluin

I would really like to know more about those two new boys she keeps talking about that are supposed to have mange and if they have been seen by the vet and treated yet. She also talks about adopting out a couple of boys recently and about taking in new rats on top of the boys with mange. I don't know much, having spent the last few minutes researching and coming up empty, but this sounds like it could be really bad for the babies, especially with the fact that 4 have degloved tails and all are skinny. How quickly/far can mange spread?


----------



## kissmyhorse

Dependng on the kind of mange it is, it may be not contageus to other rats at all, or it can be extremly contageous and can spread from clothes, humans, practcally anything short of the air. I honestly doubt any of these rats have seen a vet at all. Ever. If she can not afford to care for her own six, then I dont see how she is making all these alleged medical payments. What I really hope for is that she did not "treat" the babies with the deglovings herself! :-X


----------



## smesyna

I don't think they've ever seen a vet either... Her financial situation just doesn't allow for it.

I did pm for you kissmyhorse. It wasn't a problem 

The mange scares me too, since it could be contagious and we all see she doesn't quarantine (times in between getting new rats were too short.) Parasite qt is basic but im not holding my breath...


----------



## kissmyhorse

Thanks much!

No she's never mentioned anything about quarentne with any of these "rescues." I have to wonder as well where she is getting all these seiously sick aimals? It seems like every week shes got more people bangng on her door trowing sick rats in her apartment... Unless, of course, these rescues are purchased feeders.. That I would be more inclined to believe... :-\


----------



## Kiko

Yes I agree.
Glad to see all the Goosemoose locals coming to see us here at Ratforum! Haha.
smeysna I know you from GM and Ratfest.


----------



## eluin

Kiko said:


> Yes I agree.
> Glad to see all the Goosemoose locals coming to see us here at Ratforum! Haha.
> smeysna I know you from GM and Ratfest.


Yeah. But now there are two rat sites that I can waste time on. I was doing that well enough with one! Now if I could just figure out how to tell if topics here are new or if I've already looked at them, I'll be all set. Thanks for putting up with all of us! In a way I have to thank the OP. She brought two full sites worth of people together, joined by our communal need to save the ratties!


----------



## TamSmith

Eluin said:


> Kiko said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I agree.
> Glad to see all the Goosemoose locals coming to see us here at Ratforum! Haha.
> smeysna I know you from GM and Ratfest.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. But now there are two rat sites that I can waste time on. I was doing that well enough with one! Now if I could just figure out how to tell if topics here are new or if I've already looked at them, I'll be all set. Thanks for putting up with all of us! In a way I have to thank the OP. She brought two full sites worth of people together, joined by our communal need to save the ratties!
Click to expand...

Haha I've always gone between the two and I love that everyone has come together in this. Now everything would be perfect if Elizabeth learned anything out of this. I won't hold my breath though.


----------



## Kiko

Yay! Freindsssss
xD
I love Goosemoose, it is always fast to help me with what I need and is an awesome place to find cage pics.
I love it here because It feels like the smaller amount of members here know each other sometimes lol


----------



## smesyna

Kiko said:


> Yes I agree.
> Glad to see all the Goosemoose locals coming to see us here at Ratforum! Haha.
> smeysna I know you from GM and Ratfest.


*Waves* Yup I remeber you!!

lol Eluin my thoughts exactly about another site to waste time on haha. It will be nice trying a more "intimate" forum hehe.


----------



## chapstickaddict

Oh hai everybody! I see I'm not the only one who's curiosity was spiked from the GM thread. Sad sad times


----------



## Rakels87

I know I joined here 2 years ago and only have 4 posts, but I will say I own LARGE snakes (not talking little ball pythons here) and have had PET rats at the same time (but never in the same room). My 3 boys were neutered, even ! I enjoyed having them. Obviously, I can't have any more, but it's better this way. 

Since I am in the snake crowd, I naturally saw Elizabeth's threads on Fauna and she is probably one of the strangest people I've encountered on the internet in a long time... and that's saying a lot!!! 

I'm interested in finding out what happens to these guys or if we ever will. Disgusting.


----------



## kissmyhorse

I am also part of the reptile clique. Although I don't own or breed any snakes, I would like to venture into balls one day. Currently I breedvarious morphs of Leopard Geckos as well as Cave Geckos, G. Hain. As much as it sucks, I do feed pinky rats and mice to some of my breeding females at various points during the season. I try not to think about it. Anywhoo, my point being that I understand where a lot of herp owners are coming from. Trust me, we can indeed love our fuzzies and our scalies together! haha


----------



## feathersandlove

Deborahbroadus said:


> I was bad, I am not normally so harsh, but she had gotten on my last nerve trying to slam a business when her own ethics were none too clean.
> 
> The BOI stands for Board of Inquiry. It was orignally established to help the reptile community police it's business practices and root out scammers. Someone with more history on the BOI may chime in later.


Hi Deborah.  Hopefully you didn't receive a nasty email like I did for signing up here. Someone figured out who I was and didn't like it. lol


I'm Magickal Morphs from the reptile forum, just prefer this username for non scaly animal forums. I had the displeasure of dealing with Liz when she first came on the reptile scene. She made a deal with me on an animal, then promptly backed out on it. No biggie, buyers do that all the time. But my problem with her is that she lied about why. Anyone who knows me, knows there's three things in the world that'll get me to ride you to **** and back. Liars, cheaters, and thieves. Liz is confirmed at two of those. (Yeah, I have a link to the arrest record..) If you're visiting her, I'd suggest you keep your wallet locked safely in your car.

All anyone has to do is read through her posts anywhere to see that she's not the innocent victim she claims she is. She continually lies, embellishes, and dances around direct questions. Every word out of her mouth is a blatant lie. I think by now we all know she's not in any school for veterinary medicine, and that her animals are not receiving the medical care she claims they are, among other things. Is she one of those people who crave attention even if it's negative?

She needs some counseling of the professional sort, but sadly she seems like someone who will never seek it. She's exactly the kind of person real rescues steer clear of, because she's not above clearing out an entire group of pets just to bring in a different species. Birds, reptiles, rats.. What's next? Kudos to Rat Forum for letting this thread stay and allowing discussion.


----------



## eluin

Goosemoose didn't ban her either, though they seem to be putting up with a lot lately. Elizabeth is the second blatant liar we've had in the last week or so, and her posts were MUCH more civil than the first one. She may be crazy, but she didn't cuss anyone out like the first poster did. I think Liz is gone off of Goosemoose and not coming back. We started asking too many questions and she couldn't answer without crossing over her own lies. That thing with Taz still bugs me though. I'd like to know for certain if he is dead or not. A photo with no time stamp or date anywhere in it is NOT proof. If she'd been trying to give us real proof, she'd have put a newspaper or something in the photo to give it context.


----------



## smesyna

Eluin said:


> Goosemoose didn't ban her either, though they seem to be putting up with a lot lately. Elizabeth is the second blatant liar we've had in the last week or so, and her posts were MUCH more civil than the first one. She may be crazy, but she didn't cuss anyone out like the first poster did. I think Liz is gone off of Goosemoose and not coming back. We started asking too many questions and she couldn't answer without crossing over her own lies. That thing with Taz still bugs me though. I'd like to know for certain if he is dead or not. A photo with no time stamp or date anywhere in it is NOT proof. If she'd been trying to give us real proof, she'd have put a newspaper or something in the photo to give it context.


Yeah I don't know what is up with that. They used to ban people over much less. The other liar, even started lying again after admitting lying and claiming to come clean and is still there-and created a new fake username!! All sorts of against the rules... But yeah, its funny how the ones like that are the ones with the most s*** to talk about others. I noticed on here, Elizabeth tried to give someone crap about having adopted a male and female (they didn't choose to anyway, they were dumped)...while she refuses to cut down on the number of the sexes and has accidental litters all the time...

I just love that she got called out on sooo many different forums-its funny, the internet pet community is not as large as you'd think. I feel bad for whoever ends up with those sad, starved, sickly rats :-[ At least people like this aren't smart enough to be good liars so we figure them out, thank god.


----------



## eluin

Honestly, they'd do a lot better if they'd just keep their stories straight. And keep them simpler. I haven't seen one yet who doesn't wind up contradicting themselves time and time again. And honestly, I'd probably take some of those rats from her if I lived on the West Coast. Of course, I'd probably wind up getting in her face and demanding she give me ALL the rats so I can rehome them BETTER. Probably a good thing I don't live closer. Getting in a fight with an unstable baby (she can't be older than most of my players at work, and they are all referred to as "babies") would probably land me in jail of some kind. I like my record clean. 
At least she isn't cutting the tails off. I got a PM from another Goosemooser saying that the "breeder" who made the Texas bob-tails with the home chop job is promising more out of their next litter. The GMer is working on getting the case reported and policing the various pet sites, but there is only so much can be done. Did someone put stupid in the water supply lately and I missed it?


----------



## blenderpie

Reading so many of these posts makes me wish it was like facebook and I could just "like" them. 

Despite the fact that the new rattie parents wouldn't know what they were in for, I sort of hope a lot of those rats are adopted. They're better in virtually anyone else's care BUT hers.


----------



## lilspaz68

blenderpie said:


> Reading so many of these posts makes me wish it was like facebook and I could just "like" them.
> 
> Despite the fact that the new rattie parents wouldn't know what they were in for, I sort of hope a lot of those rats are adopted. They're better in virtually anyone else's care BUT hers.


they need to go to knowledgeable homes, ones that are prepared for possible heart break and are willing to treat anything that comes along. Her lack of medical attention may have killed these rats and they were "saveable" under normal circumstances. The whole thing makes me very sad. Anyone wanna do a Rat TRain to Toronto?


----------



## JennBell

I'm the one who she got onto about having a male and a female  Thats where my 8 adorable little black dumbos came from. She had them 15 days after I got her and is now housed with my females and doing great. Oh and I'm pretty sure the 3 story cage my females are in is bigger than all her cages combined and its got 3 females and 8 babies in it..


----------



## blenderpie

lilspaz68 said:


> blenderpie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading so many of these posts makes me wish it was like facebook and I could just "like" them.
> 
> Despite the fact that the new rattie parents wouldn't know what they were in for, I sort of hope a lot of those rats are adopted. They're better in virtually anyone else's care BUT hers.
> 
> 
> 
> they need to go to knowledgeable homes, ones that are prepared for possible heart break and are willing to treat anything that comes along. Her lack of medical attention may have killed these rats and they were "saveable" under normal circumstances. The whole thing makes me very sad. Anyone wanna do a Rat TRain to Toronto?
Click to expand...

I hope you didn't think that I was serious. I of course want knowledgeable home to adopt the poor rats. I wrote that more out of frustration than anything.


----------



## lilspaz68

Nope just putting it out there...we have no idea if these rats even saw a vet...and we have seen lots of rats die for things that we take the to the vet and treat without a thought all the time. Poor little ones, all of those rats. :'(


----------



## eluin

lilspaz68 said:


> blenderpie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading so many of these posts makes me wish it was like facebook and I could just "like" them.
> 
> Despite the fact that the new rattie parents wouldn't know what they were in for, I sort of hope a lot of those rats are adopted. They're better in virtually anyone else's care BUT hers.
> 
> 
> 
> they need to go to knowledgeable homes, ones that are prepared for possible heart break and are willing to treat anything that comes along. Her lack of medical attention may have killed these rats and they were "saveable" under normal circumstances. The whole thing makes me very sad. Anyone wanna do a Rat TRain to Toronto?
Click to expand...

I got the Michigan leg. If you can help me find a way to sneak them all into my carry-on, I'm going to California for Christmas. I'm SURE my 80 grandmother would LOVE having rats in her home after I go rescue them.


----------



## TamSmith

Eluin said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blenderpie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading so many of these posts makes me wish it was like facebook and I could just "like" them.
> 
> Despite the fact that the new rattie parents wouldn't know what they were in for, I sort of hope a lot of those rats are adopted. They're better in virtually anyone else's care BUT hers.
> 
> 
> 
> they need to go to knowledgeable homes, ones that are prepared for possible heart break and are willing to treat anything that comes along. Her lack of medical attention may have killed these rats and they were "saveable" under normal circumstances. The whole thing makes me very sad. Anyone wanna do a Rat TRain to Toronto?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I got the Michigan leg. If you can help me find a way to sneak them all into my carry-on, I'm going to California for Christmas. I'm SURE my 80 grandmother would LOVE having rats in her home after I go rescue them.
Click to expand...

I would offer to house them until you went back home but I guess there would be no way to get them back to your home haha

I'm pretty close to her but I just don't have the funds to take care of any more unhealthy rats. I have too many of those already


----------



## eluin

Yeah. The carry-on part is really the flaw in the plan. Its too bad. Plus, those babies look like they need medical attention BEFORE Christmas. If they are going to be saved at all, I'm not sure it can wait that long.


----------



## TamSmith

Well, I could offer help to anyone that needs it but I can't take them in for too long and I can only travel so far. If anyone comes up with a plan I could probably work something out.


----------



## Kiko

*waves from NY*

This sucks, I am stuck over here at the opposite end of the country.


----------



## TamSmith

Aaaand she's back on GM. I feel like the mods are letting this go on to teach us all something. I'm not quite sure what yet haha

I'm hoping at least some of the stuff we are saying to her sticks with her. Or at least new people will see this as an example of what not to do. 

This whole thing has really made me appreciate the rescue I go to a lot more. I think they will be getting some nice christmas presents from me this year.


----------



## Kiko

Also Remember Goosemoose is a HUGE forum, more then just the rat section to.


----------



## TamSmith

Kiko said:


> Also Remember Goosemoose is a HUGE forum, more then just the rat section to.


Don't I know it. Between these 2 forums, I've gotten nothing productive done today.


----------



## lilspaz68

HAHAHA...she TRIED to use a newspaper but it didn't show up??? That is catsnscales agouti girl? Gosh she's tiiiiiny!


----------



## Zhaneel

Where exactly is she situated? I'm on the West Coast...don't know if I would actually be able to make it to wherever she is, but just in case...?


----------



## TamSmith

California. I want to say... Chino? Correct me if I'm wrong but that's whats in my head.


----------



## lilspaz68

TamSmith said:


> California. I want to say... Chino? Correct me if I'm wrong but that's whats in my head.


chico, ca


----------



## Zhaneel

EDIT: Gah, nevermind. That one letter made a heck of a difference - it's too far away for me. Argh! I was so excited to be able to help!

Holy- okay, that's about two hours from my dorm and an hour from my house (without traffic). I'm visiting home this weekend but I don't know if I will be able to get permission from my parents to do this...agh! Let's say I were actually able to make it there - what the heck would I do?


----------



## xxdotmyeyes

Anyone know how far Chico is from Sacramento? My brother and sister in law are there... they are NOT rat people, but my sister in law has a hear and I know would be more than willing to help transport depending on her work schedule.... if needed and if Liz would allow it.


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## catsandscales

Chico is about an hour and a half from Sac if you have smooth sailing... and that's just by city limits...

I wish I could take two of the babies... but then my cage situation would be the same as the one they came from. =P


----------



## lilspaz68

catsandscales said:


> Chico is about an hour and a half from Sac if you have smooth sailing... and that's just by city limits...
> 
> I wish I could take two of the babies... but then my cage situation would be the same as the one they came from. =P


I would send you some money to help you get a bigger cage when they grew up a little. A small cage, but better care overall is still a huge improvement!!


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## catsandscales

It's not a matter of cost, just of space! =P I would love to get an R695 but I don't think it would fit nicely in my studio apartment anywhere... My frankencage, which can barely fit three as it is, looks monstrously large in my living room/dining room/kitchen. =P I do have a little cage that can only fit one (planning on use for hospital or travel cuz it's better than the hamster cage I got from a friend)... Plus getting more than 3 is out of the question with my hubby, who only likes the idea as long as it makes me happy. XD


----------



## lilspaz68

catsandscales said:


> It's not a matter of cost, just of space! =P I would love to get an R695 but I don't think it would fit nicely in my studio apartment anywhere... My frankencage, which can barely fit three as it is, looks monstrously large in my living room/dining room/kitchen. =P I do have a little cage that can only fit one (planning on use for hospital or travel cuz it's better than the hamster cage I got from a friend)... Plus getting more than 3 is out of the question with my hubby, who only likes the idea as long as it makes me happy. XD


R-690 baby...smaller footprint... good for 2 rats


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## eluin

After the first of the year, I might be able to donate too. I need to see where my bills situation is first, but there might be something I can do. The problem is that all of this hinges on getting Elizabeth to surrender her rats, and there is no way we'd be able to get her to give up all of them. We'd save a few, but since she is a BYB, she'll probably just make another litter. 
I'm kind of surprised she hasn't come back here. She is still defending herself on GM. I'm washing my hands of the thread though. It is a complete waste of time, trying to convince a liar that she needs to stop lying. If anyone can get the rats away from her and will send me an address, I can't send actual hammocks since my sewing machine is a piece of junk not even fit to hawk on CL, but I have a pile of fleece I can stuff in a box and send your way. I can probably even donate a couple smaller bags of HT out of the box I've got coming. My crew doesn't need all the HT right away.
Edit: Catsandscales, I comletely sympathize. Boyfriend only puts up with the rats for me. I don't think he'd have any pets if I weren't around. The things we do for those we love...


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## kissmyhorse

I can't believe shes back defending herself on GM! GAH I wish my account was working!!!! 

Jut as a side note: I saw on a neighnors porch today theird cage Elzabeth intends to keep the mother rat, coco, and all the female baby rats in.... it had two parakeets in it.... I havent the slightest idea how you could even fit that many rats in that space without them literally killing eachother :-\


----------



## smesyna

kissmyhorse said:


> I can't believe shes back defending herself on GM! GAH I wish my account was working!!!!
> 
> Jut as a side note: I saw on a neighnors porch today theird cage Elzabeth intends to keep the mother rat, coco, and all the female baby rats in.... it had two parakeets in it.... I havent the slightest idea how you could even fit that many rats in that space without them literally killing eachother :-\


You got my pm right? You just have to email suebee. I posted though


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## kissmyhorse

You got my pm right? You just have to email suebee. I posted though 
[/quote]

ahh thanks so much yes i just checked it


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## TamSmith

Ugh. That little furry one keeps tugging at my heart  I wish I could bring one home so bad but I just don't have the money for another sick rat. I have room for one more but I'm in debt right now paying off the vet for my 2 girls who just had tumors.


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## lilspaz68

They don't look sick to me right now, but I just think they will have short lives and people may need to prepare themselves for that. They may live lovely long lives, you just don't know, but...


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## lilspaz68

She's resurrecting her thread on Goose, and trying to say she's improved things...I am sorry, but I don't see it at all!


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## Kiko

She is not gonna improve anything, people are going on about how it's great everyone is being so nice and helping out when they are all talking to a wall.
This girl is a pathological liar, a terrible pet owner and a borderline abusive person to animals.
Idk how people are not seeing it.


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## eluin

We don't want to be the one that gets banned calling her out and stirring up trouble. GM has been really lax on what they are letting people get away with on the boards, but I don't want to tempt the Board Gods into anger. Looking at her new cages though, they are still freaking tiny! That one is hardly bigger than the igloo she has in it. I'd also like to know how we got to 6 males that need rehomed (not including the new one she said just died, funny how she never mentioned that she had a sick rat), if she says she is not taking in any new rescues.


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## Kiko

It's ridiculous. This girl needs a wake up call. You would think all the rats dying horrible deaths would do that but no. She needs to bring it upon herself to kill*cough* I mean rescue more rats.


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## lilspaz68

As long as it doesn't look like a witch hunt, and there's no personal slurs involved, the Mods won't touch it. They haven't even put up a warning in-thread to keep it on track.


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## eluin

Well, I haven't gotten out the big stick with the word "Clue" written on it and tried to beat the clue into her yet, but I'm not far off. People my age who do *bleep* like this frustrate the heck out of me. It makes us all look bad.


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## feathersandlove

She's permanently banned from Fauna now. Have a peek at her sales thread there to see how that played out for her. This isn't someone who has turned over a new leaf, it's someone who just thinks she's smarter than all of us. 

Those cages are pitiful. I see two toys, no wonder they are chewing hammocks down. There's nothing else to chew! 

Has anyone seen a scan of any of these supposed vet bills yet? All this money going out in (supposed) vet bills on sick animals, but she can't afford decent cages and some proper bedding? Oh but that's right, she did what she was supposed to do _after_ she took the pictures. Riiiight.


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## lilspaz68

feathersandlove said:


> She's permanently banned from Fauna now. Have a peek at her sales thread there to see how that played out for her. This isn't someone who has turned over a new leaf, it's someone who just thinks she's smarter than all of us.
> 
> Those cages are pitiful. I see two toys, no wonder they are chewing hammocks down. There's nothing else to chew!
> 
> Has anyone seen a scan of any of these supposed vet bills yet? All this money going out in (supposed) vet bills on sick animals, but she can't afford decent cages and some proper bedding? Oh but that's right, she did what she was supposed to do _after_ she took the pictures. Riiiight.


can you link the thread feathers? I am at work, and digging it out will be difficult from all the vitriolic LOL


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## feathersandlove

Sure thing. Here you go. (Not sure on this site's stance on direct links to other forums, so I removed the bits that will make it a link - you'll need to copy and paste.) 

faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208824


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## eluin

I saw this last night. Pretending to be two people at once? That is special.


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## lilspaz68

Eluin said:


> I saw this last night. Pretending to be two people at once? That is special.


Oh wow!!


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## Kinlar

I'm new to this site and I'm from the UK so I'm not sure what your laws are, so forgive me if I sound ignorant -but is there no way someone could report this girl to some kind of Animal Welfare Agency?
I mean, surely she deserves to be fined or punished, and those poor bubs deserve a decent chance away from her?
Sorry if I sound out of order, but these kind of things make me sick.


----------



## lilspaz68

Kinlar said:


> I'm new to this site and I'm from the UK so I'm not sure what your laws are, so forgive me if I sound ignorant -but is there no way someone could report this girl to some kind of Animal Welfare Agency?
> I mean, surely she deserves to be fined or punished, and those poor bubs deserve a decent chance away from her?
> Sorry if I sound out of order, but these kind of things make me sick.



Not a bit, but its best coming from someone who has been there, and its also very difficult to get people to believe "just rats" are being neglected or abused. They are considered just a food source for many agencies and most times as long as there is no dead and dying animals in a cage, they have minimal water, food, caging, its enough to not do anything at all.


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## lilangel

Her thread on GM has been locked now. God i just wish she would stop and think what she is getting her self into.


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## eluin

I think we all just got sent to our rooms without supper over on GM.


----------



## Kiko

Crushed! I am glad she has been banned.
She is known all over the rat community now. NO forum will let her post.
And alot of the reptile world too.
She is a sick sick sick individual and I hope she learns a hard lesson.


----------



## smesyna

Nope, she actually hasn't been banned from GM. They just locked the thread.

Edited.


----------



## Jaguar

feathersandlove said:


> Sure thing. Here you go. (Not sure on this site's stance on direct links to other forums, so I removed the bits that will make it a link - you'll need to copy and paste.)
> 
> faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208824


all i can think of in reply to this is LOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## eluin

Well, I've been trying to fight the good fight. I'm in Michigan, but I'd like to report her to someone if I can. The problem is that I only have second hand knowledge gained from pictures, nothing concrete. I've been googling, trying to get personal information on her, her landlord, or even her parents to see if they would be willing to step in.
I actually called her to see if I could get her to drop the name of her apartment complex while she was giving me directions to drop of my rats to her. Her number is a cell phone, but either she doesn't have caller ID or the Michigan area code didn't phase her. Either way, she didn't give me the name and I didn't want to be too obvious, since there was nothing in my story that came close to true. She is definitely still taking surrenders though, which means more rats are going to suffer. I'm not really sure what else to do, but I'm going to keep trying. If anyone has any other ideas, let me know. I just want to make sure I'm helping the cause, not hurting it.


----------



## catsandscales

Ok, time for me to speak up! I've watched all of this nonsense go down and tried my best to hold my tongue... I even stuck up for her for a long time until I went over to her apartment to meet her rats (pre-'rescue') & babies and started to see all of the lies she had herself caught up in. =P I didn't want to betray her confidence in me because I didn't think it was worth losing a friendship over, but it's become clear that she only wanted to be 'friends' with me for rat-support, and she dropped basically all contact with me once I told her that I wasn't going to take one of the babies after all, and stopped texting me when I told her I wasn't going to put up with her lying (so she stopped telling me the truth as well).

I still feel kind of bad for betraying her, but when the person in question continues to tell blatant lies and try to pass herself off as an acceptable 'rescue,' trust in general kind of goes out the window. =P So here goes!

Just to clarify some things that she told me (again, these are her words, not mine):

She tried to put Taz (who is alive) to sleep herself by suffocating him, basically. She squeezed his ribcage until he 'died' and then put him in the freezer. She checked on him an hour later and he was definitely alive and scratching at the freezer door... this is a hairless rat we're talking about. =P No vet. I doubt if she ever got meds from anyone. =P

I know that at least two of the babies' missing tails were due to her cat catching their tails from through the bars.

Another tidbit: she hides ALL of her rats in her attic once a week when her mom comes to visit (her dad doesn't mind and apparently encourages the situation...). The cages she can't fit in the attic she breaks down and hides under her bed. I don't know how the heck she does it every week, but apparently she makes it work. =\ I don't understand how you can be that rebellious...

I'm not sharing these things to slander her, but because I want it to be very clear that while she does love animals, she does not know HOW to love animals properly. =P

It sucks to see all her CL ads in my area, asking for cages, trying to re-home rats... she posted a new one the other day asking for an odd-eyed rat, any gender. She's a collector! It's crazy! I mean, I tend to be on the side of the fence that says 'they're animals, give them good care out of respect for life but you don't have to spoil them,' but what she's doing is ridiculous. It is ABSURDLY easy to modify your cage with hardware cloth, took me one afternoon to add on enough extra space to my rabbit cage for 3 rats (where I will house two females), and it cost me $15 at Joann's for enough fleece for liners and four or five hammocks, not to mention the paltry sum of money I spent at the Dollar Tree for a kick-a** cage full of hideouts and toys, if I do say so myself... UGH. She's unbelievable.

Would it hurt to call Animal Control about her?


----------



## smesyna

Edited. Catsandscales, PM me if you hadn't already read this.

Her trying to kill Taz like that makes me feel sick to my stomach.

And, do NOT feel bad about not taking her rat. It is not your fault she is doing this, nor your responsibility.


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## TamSmith

Poor Taz. I'm so upset right now. I wish there was a way to take them away from her. I would take Taz in a heart beat. I don't have the cage space currently but I would get a second job just to make it work. 

Stacy, is there any way to get her banned from GM? Do they even understand the whole situation? 

I keep thinking about Taz and crying.


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## smesyna

Um I don't know if we could get her banned-she should be-I knew she wasn't because it still showed her online on GM after the mods locked the thread. I don't think they do get the entirety of this from their reaction to the thread :-\

I'd gladly take Taz as well, but I'm 3,000 miles away. Rat train anyone? I know, I can't get that thought out of my head.


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## Kiko

The thing is. Even if any sort of rat train or mass adoption thing could work out, I doubt she would just give her rats to us.
She needs real intervention. Unfortunately I dont think Animal control would do anything, because in reality as long as they have food and water and are not dying they won't do anything :/


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## eluin

I talked to animal control today. I'm working on putting together an email citing her cages, sick rats, and deaths for the woman I spoke with. She did confirm that they will be doing a home check on her soon. I'm guessing it was more than just my call on her list. Catsandscales, if you could PM me with contact details, you've actually seen this first hand. You can be a witness to her neglect. I'd really like to include your name with my report.


----------



## sonoma

Oh god, that is so horrific- no sane, rational person could do that to an animal they allegedly love. Sick, sick, sick. 

Please do call AC on her! I agree with smesyna, they’ll hopefully take what you say seriously because you’ve been to her house. Any chance you could get in touch with her mom, too? 

Edit- deleted the phrase I quoted. Kiko has a good point.


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## TamSmith

If anything happens I would take definitely take Taz. 

I know it's kind of a long shot but I'm just putting it out there that I am willing and ready to take him.


----------



## Kiko

EDIT


----------



## rattiesalem24

Poor Taz... And she is studying to be a VET?????


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## Kinlar

wait wait what happened to Taz?? Whats elizabeth done?? You could even make some sort of petition against her and send it to them! List all her posts that have involved a rat being injured/dying and claim she's neglecting their care!


----------



## TamSmith

You're right. Everyone should take anything about it down and stop mentioning it for now


----------



## digitalangel

I just read about Taz... omg how could anyone in their right mind do that?


----------



## Kiko

I will be editing posts in this thread.
So don't be alarmed if your post is changed (I will not be re wording don't worry)


----------



## xxdotmyeyes

I'm just so sick t my stomach over this... :'(


----------



## lilangel

Oh my lord how could anyone do that to their beloved pet? I am stunned what i just read. :'(


----------



## Kiko

Everyone is.
Truly horrible


----------



## zoe9

I don't post much here anymore but I still lurk occasionally and have been following this sad thread and the one on GM.

I don't live in the US so there's not much I can do, however on page 10 of the GM thread Marybelle makes this comment:

"Chico. Isn't that where Debbie, the rat lady, lives? I'm guessing she'd be pretty helpful in finding suitable cages for you."

And Elizabeth replies:

"she has helped me with a few of the cages i have here. and im sure if i asked her she would have more and would be willing to help me more".

So perhaps contacting Debbie D and advising her of the situation would be an option.


----------



## Kiko

Perhaps. Does anyone have her Email?


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## smesyna

ratlady(at)ratfanclub(dot)org

I strongly suspect she was lying about her helping her. If she had helped her with the cages, she wouldn't have such awful cages...


----------



## catsandscales

Well, the Rat Lady's website recommends a minimum cage space of 12"X24"X12" which most people on this site would agree is too small. So it's possible that she got some extra cages from her.

I don't know what to believe on that one... It'd be interesting to find out if Debbie knows her anyway. =P


----------



## ema-leigh

Reading what she did to Taz makes me feel ill :'( I knew she wasn't quite right in the head... but that is pure evil and beyond my own comprehension. Catsandscales do you still have the text messages or emails she sent you with this information? 

Elizabeth also mentioned in a previous thread that it was Debby D the rat lady who pointed her to the feeder breeder supplying the double rex rats in the first place. So shes made several references to her now, I'd be interested in hearing if Debby D has actually had any contact with her at all ???


----------



## eluin

I was supposed to get the email off to someone who can do something about it tonight, but I think I got food poisoning from a bad jar of cheesey dip. Gas station went and sold me a jar on Sunday that expired in November of 09. I didn't think to check the date until I'd eaten some of it. That thing about hiding the rats in the attic makes me wonder though. Elizabeth is supposed to have a studio apartment. Where did she get an attic to store things in?


----------



## Kiko

Don't know if it's the same thing. But i live in a Co-Op, we have an apartment but since we are the 2ed floor and the top floor we have an attic. It's not accessible without a ladder, and not finished. I would never dream of putting animals up there.

most attics have Insulation which can be toxic


----------



## ema-leigh

I know someone that lives in a studio apartment as well, and they have a very small unfinished attic space. Its usually dusty and cold... obviously not fit for a ratty but I'm sure thats the least of her rats worries . Surely in those cages and circumstances her house would smell? esp due to its size? 

Catsandscales... what were the conditions of the cages and her house when you went? Its hard to tell in the pictures what is dirty damp bedding and what is rust :-\


----------



## phoebe

I have never posted here before, but I am Eliz630 on Goosemoose, just so you guys know I am not trolling.

Anyways, the post about Taz and the freezer made me sick. I actually jumped up and went and puked. My boyfriend thought I was nuts till I read it to him. Then he suggested we buy plane tickets to California. Not gonna happen, but, I seriously hope that something changes soon. I fear for all of those poor ratties and it just breaks my heart. I wish I didn't live 3000 miles from all this mess.

I also wanted to mention that in the thread on GM, she says the cages look gross because its cage cleaning day (or something along those lines) well, on her "rescue" site she posted the same day saying she just got those cages, that day. So, obviously they were "clean" if she had just gotten them and put her rats in them.


----------



## Spoonrat

I'm in a state of shock... poor Taz  I just... how can anyone do that to an animal?! I'm actually crying it's so awful. I don't think she loves those animals at all, I'm sorry but she isn't just misguided or incapable... it's much more than that :'(


----------



## RatFanSA

Also swung over from GM... just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who's concerned about these rats and trying to find a way to help them. What happened to Taz is utterly awful... I almost can't believe that it's true, because I can't think of any justification for it. I wish there was something I could do to help.


----------



## ema-leigh

Sad thing is... I don't think Animal control will seize her rats. :-\ Are there any rat rescues in the area that could 'befriend' her in an attempt to get as many as they can out of there? (mind you I have a feeling she would just fill the space back up again) :'( I wish I was closer and could help out some way. I would be able to send a donation if anyone does get any of these ratties to help towards any medical expenses. 

I also really hope if she manages to find an odd eyed rat that she isn't planning on breeding it due to the high MC risks. That would be a disaster :-\

Elizabeth's behavior is consistent with a type of autism I've encountered before... although it may be something totally different. I really think she needs therapy. I found a weird profile of hers where she talks about her being a vampire and has a different name she goes by and everything  ....for anyone whose interested: 
http://punkrock.org/Daygona/

Anyway its nice to see our two communities coming together more, I'll have to start posting on GM more now I know the people are nice there too. (I do read threads though)


----------



## smesyna

ema-leigh said:


> Sad thing is... I don't think Animal control will seize her rats. :-\ Are there any rat rescues in the area that could 'befriend' her in an attempt to get as many as they can out of there? (mind you I have a feeling she would just fill the space back up again) :'( I wish I was closer and could help out some way. I would be able to send a donation if anyone does get any of these ratties to help towards any medical expenses.
> 
> I also really hope if she manages to find an odd eyed rat that she isn't planning on breeding it due to the high MC risks. That would be a disaster :-\
> 
> Elizabeth's behavior is consistent with a type of autism I've encountered before... although it may be something totally different. I really think she needs therapy. I found a weird profile of hers where she talks about her being a vampire and has a different name she goes by and everything  ....for anyone whose interested:
> http://punkrock.org/Daygona/
> 
> Anyway its nice to see our two communities coming together more, I'll have to start posting on GM more now I know the people are nice there too. (I do read threads though)


I found that too. I don't know what she thinks is punk about pretending to be a vampire. I just laughed when I found it earlier, because she said under her profile pic on here that it was a halloween costume : Lies lies lies...


----------



## Jaguar

just keep in mind she can still read all of this x_x


----------



## lilspaz68

Jaguar said:


> just keep in mind she can still read all of this x_x


Not if she's banned. You lose all guest rights after banning.


----------



## lilspaz68

Poor poor Taz...I should've expected that 

her addy
[email protected]


----------



## lilangel

this is the email she uses on GM too [email protected]


----------



## catsandscales

I think I might still have those texts... my phone automatically deletes stuff after a while. =P But it wasn't that long ago and it should still have them.

I do still want to stress that we should do our best to treat her with as much respect as we can, or we will be behaving in the same way that she has towards us in a sense. =\ I don't want to bully her to a breaking point, but I do think something needs to be done sooner rather than later about her situation. I think it is much deeper than stubbornly not caring properly for rats. =/

She doesn't have hardly any support from friends (which I think are mostly non-existent) or family, and she told me her bf broke up with her recently (although I doubt whether or not he existed as I never met him or saw any evidence of him besides what she told me). So, again, while I believe something must be done, please don't make her out to be Hitler. She doesn't need that and it won't help her in the long run.


----------



## lilspaz68

Sadly she is abusing defenceless animals, and the SPCA would take care of that issue. She needs help, but unfortunately you can only lead a horse to water, not make him drink.


----------



## smesyna

catsandscales said:


> I think I might still have those texts... my phone automatically deletes stuff after a while. =P But it wasn't that long ago and it should still have them.
> 
> I do still want to stress that we should do our best to treat her with as much respect as we can, or we will be behaving in the same way that she has towards us in a sense. =\ I don't want to bully her to a breaking point, but I do think something needs to be done sooner rather than later about her situation. I think it is much deeper than stubbornly not caring properly for rats. =/
> 
> She doesn't have hardly any support from friends (which I think are mostly non-existent) or family, and she told me her bf broke up with her recently (although I doubt whether or not he existed as I never met him or saw any evidence of him besides what she told me). So, again, while I believe something must be done, please don't make her out to be Hitler. She doesn't need that and it won't help her in the long run.


Well, you can change your phones settings in the meantime so it doesn't auto delete them. Please, that would be a huge help. I'd love to see her get help so she stops doing this, but there isn't much that can be done about that, she has to want it. Who knows, maybe if her animals get taken away it would be a wake up call for her (possibly her family as well.)


----------



## ema-leigh

Yes those text messages would be a vital piece of evidence in proving actual abuse. I think she deserves to be charged for what shes done.... shes an adult after all. Often in those cases they will remove all the animals, force her into therapy/some kind of mental evaluation and possibly even a ban on owning animals for a few years - which may give her time to rethink and reprogram her head. 

I hate to think how her boy with the 'enlarged spleen' (I'm guessing a diagnosis she made by herself) suffered in his final hours :'(


----------



## catsandscales

I still have them. And since she hasn't tried to contact me for a while they aren't going anywhere (my phone saves each text by the person, so if a conversation gets too long it will only delete those texts). So no worries! They're all still there.


----------



## Meep

I have been following all these posts and I applaud the whole ratforum and GM communities who are coming together for the love and sake of the rats in this situation.

I agree to the fact that she has something mentally wrong with her, and needs help. This very much reminds me of the stories heard of animal hoarding and probably is a typical case. The whole situation is sickening really, and needs to be taken care of before this situation gets worse.

I really do applaud you all for your dedication for these poor animals and hopefully this girl can be stopped from treating these animals like this, and that Animal control can really do something with the facts and info given. 

And I pray that these ratties will end up in the hands of some of you guys, where we all know they will be properly cared for.


----------



## lml8787

Catandscales, could you possibly get a phone record from your phone service provider and drop it by or mail it to your Animal Control/ASPCA for proof of her abusing and neglecting her rats? I'm sure with the proof of neglect, they will take them from her. Also, the more calls her local Animal Control gets reporting her, I'm sure the more they will take it serious. Maybe we could also print out and send them this thread along with the GM one, and with catandscales texts. Or maybe even an online petition or something. Just some ideas that popped into my head after reading about poor Taz. 

Also, someone mentioned about finding a way to contact her mom about all of this....if anyone is friends with her on facebook, could you possibly search thru her friends list and see if her mom may be in her friends list and send her mom a message or something? Maybe look for a lady with her same last name or something? or look thru her wall posts? just another thought....


----------



## catsandscales

I don't think she has a facebook, I've looked for her. =\

I'll see what I can do about getting a printout of our textversations. =P


----------



## Kiko

Googled her and found her Guinea Pig still for sale on an ad site for pets. Updated 2 days ago


----------



## lml8787

Kiko said:


> Googled her and found her Guinea Pig still for sale on an ad site for pets. Updated 2 days ago


that poor thing! i could only imagine the neglect he is suffering too. i just hope she doesnt try to kill it too if she cant find a home for it. this is so so sad. :'(


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## lml8787

catsandscales said:


> I don't think she has a facebook, I've looked for her. =\
> 
> I'll see what I can do about getting a printout of our textversations. =P



That would be awesome if you could do that! Just think of all those poor ratties who are suffering and being abused and neglected in her care that will be saved! And hopefully it will teach her a lesson also. Mainly though, those rats will be saved! 

Please keep us updated.


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## blenderpie

I'm almost ashamed that I attempted to stop people from attacking her on GM. I, too, sensed that she has had something wrong with her for a while. Her behavior is more like that of a young child in the 9-11 range than an adult. (impulsive, evasive, lying). I just figured that talking calmly and rationally would get a better reaction (rather than attacking leading to more lying and defense). It did work for a while. However, the recent things that have come to my attention (I just read pg 26-present) DISGUST ME. 

This is the first thing that came up when I typed "California + improper euthanasia" 
http://orrp.osu.edu/iacuc/osupolicies/guidelines/EuthanasiaOfRodentsGuineaPigs.cfm

I'm not sure if she would qualify under this since she's not in a laboratory situation, but I'm almost sure that improper euthanasia IS grounds for legal action. Even though Taz was just attempted, people get in trouble for attempted murder, now don't they?

If there is any way that I could help please let me know. I'm far away in PA, but if there is a rescue of sorts I'll scrounge up some money (oh the woes of a college student) and send whatever supplies that I can.


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## TamSmith

If anyone happens to find out anything please keep me updated about what is going on with the rats. I am willing to drive out and make a weekend trip to take in Taz and however many more find cage space for. I also have a friend that does a lot of local adoptions and she might be able to take in a few at least until she can find good homes for them.


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## Spoonrat

I would just like to say - you guys are amazing. Your refusal to give up on these rats is really heartwarming and I only wish I could help in some way. I think about those rats a lot and i just pray that something can be done to get them out of there...

Elizabeth obviously needs a lot of help too - psychologically I mean. Lets hope she gets what she needs too, I'm sure I'm not the only one who hates having such negative feelings towards a person but it's hard when the innocent lives of animals are involved.

Surely determination and a huge amount of stubbornness will pay off? Let's hope so


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## lilspaz68

Make sure the right agency is informed of this situation. The SPCA might be better as they are more concerned about the welfare of the animals than the by-laws like Animal Control (or this is how it is in Canada).


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## rattiesalem24

While looking at the link on the other page, I found this:

Confirmation of death is required prior to disposal. Unintended recovery of animals (e.g. in refrigerators and freezers) after apparent death from inhalant anesthetics is a reportable incidence to OLAW. 

I'm not sure if this would be part of what she did, because she didn't use anesthetics, but there might still be the same guidelines on what she did.


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## Jennandjuicetm

blenderpie said:


> I'm almost ashamed that I attempted to stop people from attacking her on GM. I, too, sensed that she has had something wrong with her for a while. Her behavior is more like that of a young child in the 9-11 range than an adult. (impulsive, evasive, lying). I just figured that talking calmly and rationally would get a better reaction (rather than attacking leading to more lying and defense). It did work for a while. However, the recent things that have come to my attention (I just read pg 26-present) DISGUST ME.


Me, too. (I'm from GM, also.) I even messaged her and said she could email me if she needed any advice that I could help her with. I haven't responded, but I'm going to keep communicating with her because I think that will help. At least we will know what might be going on over there in the mean time. 

Hoolllyyy poop I can't believe what she did to Taz. :'( I'm on the east coast but if there's anything I can do or anything I find out I will let you guys know. 

This is crazy.


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## Kinlar

Catsandscales? Uv visited her so u know her address? Try contacting the local rental agencies with it to get in contact with her landlord? She's not old enough to rent herself so he may have her parents contact details! Two birds with one stone, the animals will be removed and shell get the help she do obviously needs! X


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