# Forced socialization failing..>.



## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

So i've tried a few times to do the forced socialization but it doesn't seem to kick off with my lil ratties. I've had them for 4 weeks now and they're 9 months old, they spent 7 months in a rescue centre before i got them.

I've tried throwing a blanket over my lap and putting one in there, but they just run off and they run/leap if i try to pick them up to put them back on my lap. I've tried putting them on my shoulder while standing, they stay for a few minutes then just try to climb vertically down me, which means they must be pretty desperate to get off of me if they'll take such measures to get on the floor. =/ Placing them in a hood/pouch or even down my sweatshirt (with a t-shirt under it) doesn't work as they just climb out or try to chew their way out, and i don't wanna force them to stay in their against their will.

They climb over me but won't let me touch them briefly, let alone stroke them 

Has anyone got any ideas on how to do the forced way with really nervous rats that you simply can't keep a hold of when picking them up?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

these are females? if so, remember that they are not likely to become lap rats. if they are about 9 months then they are pretty much teenagers too. which means full of energy. 

next, how long is each session? how many times a day do you do it? what are you doing when they are on you? how do you feel when you are handling them? 

also remember what forced socialization means. you are going to be forcing them to get over their fear and that means making them do things that they do not really want to do sometimes. 

the problem that i can see from what you said before you even answer the questions though is that you are giving them too much freedom to get away. shoulder riding should wait until they are more comfortable with you. putting them on a blanket on you lap doesn't force them to stay with you. if you want to try the blanket method you need to lay down on a couch or bed and tuck all the edges underneath you so they can't get away (you may also want to wear sneakers as all rats like to chew on socks and toes). put some treats in the blanket too so they associate your smell to yummy food. then add the rats under the blanket. you need to stay relatively still and calm. when they come near your hands slowly reach for them and touch them. each session needs to last AT LEAST 20 minutes. 

once the other questions are answered we will be able to help you better as well. there are a few more different methods to try and combining trust training and forced socialization techniques have also produced results.


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

Yup females, i realize they won't become lap rats but was just hoping i could stroke them once every so often without them dashing away from my hand/ pushing their nose against my hand to keep me from strokin'.

I don't try the sessions regularly, i get disheartened and only try every so often. And i try till they run off, which isn't long >.<

And i'm a lot more confident picking them up now than i was at the start, it still takes a good few attempts sometimes as they can buck/jump/squirm at times when my hand closes over them. I can only do the one hand under the shoulders (with a supporting hand for the hind legs) pickup method.

They trust me a bit, enough to all crowd around my hand and eat out of it if i put some peas or sweetcorn in my palm. I'll give the "down the sweatshirt" method another go while i wait for a reply


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

forced socailization only really works when you keep up on it. a hit and miss technique with is nearly guaranteed to fail. 

but here's the good thing. they seem to trust you. the fact that they come to you says so. here's the bad thing, they have been training YOU! everytime you let them get away when they squirm reinforces that that is the way to make you let go so they can go play. you need to show them that they do not have the control here but you do. YOU ARE MOM and mom must be trusted ut MUST be obeyed as well. this can be very important should someone get lost, get into trouble or are about to get into danger. knowing that you are mom and you have the control will also make for better interaction between you and the rats, you'll both be happier for it. 

start with picking them up and holding them even when they squirm. when they settle down, then let them go. you need to show them that you are boss here and just because they complain does not mean they get what they want. when they calm down and do as you want them to then they can have they want, whether that be out to play or a treat. 

from there go the blanket tuck-it gives them more room to play and some space to get away from you when they want it. the sweatshirt is hard to contain a rat in i've always found. 

after that they should see you as boss. remember all through this that the quickest way to a rat's heart is through their stomach. give treats everytime they do something you want them to do. make sure that they are treats that they don't normally get otherwise too, so its extra special. if you can figure out what is each rat's favorite food that would help a lot. as you can give that as a treat. 

after all that you should be able to teach them a bunch of different things. i had my first rat trained to even roll over. i've seen rats spin, run agility courses, do mazes and figure out puzzles along with the common coming to their names and potty training. rats are very smart animals and i have found that adventerous and active rats enjoy learning tricks the most. they think of it as a game that both of you get to play. teaching them tricks will keep you both entertained and increase the interactivity that you can have with your rats. so instead of watching them bounce around (though very fun) you can bounce around with them. 

but honestly, i don't think trust is so much of an issue with your rats right now so much as they don't know who is boss and they seem to be on high alert for something to do. training and toys will help you here. try not to be discouraged if things aren't progressing as fast as you would like. just keep at it and it will come along. consistancy is the key! good luck! keep us updated and we are here for any questions you have


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

Being a relatively new rat owner (these are my first ever ratties) i'm nowhere near as comfortable handling rats as most of the people from here are. I grip them as firmly as i believe i need to, doesn't stop them squirming though. I don't know how firm is too firm, i don't want to squeeze too hard or anything. 

Is it normal for some rats to be so desperate to get away during forced sessions? I got a nice rat sized hole in my jumper from tonights first attempt, and the second attempt (under a blanket), apart from the odd run up and down me to find a different way out she was just constantly trying to pull the blanket to find a way out...which she did (thought i had it pretty much rat tight myself).

I'll have a go at picking them up and trying to not let them get away, you are right though, they have done a good job at training me to let them run rampant


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

that behavior can be common in rats that have not had much proper handling. to know if you are holding them to tight, they will squeak at you. to know you are not holding them tight enough they will fall from your hands or get away. yes, rats are tiny and delicate looking but they are actually quite hardy little beings. 

remember these rats are smart too and they are mainly prey animals. they will look to other rats and other creatures in their surrounding for cues to danger. if you are nervous they will think that their is a predator near-by and e nervous in return. if you are confident they will be more calm as well. i know it easier said then done but you need to project a feeling of confidence and the best way to do that is to feel confident yourself. if you are nervous about being bit and think wearing gloves will make you feel less nervous, wear them. if there is a particular song you listen to when you're stressed to make you feel better play it. any trick to get you to relax. breathing out when you go to pick them up and focusing on your breathing to remain steady and even and deep can also help when handling them. 

don't be too worried if she can get out of the blanket from time to time in the begining, just start over. you are both getting used to this technique after all. do you have more then one rat? if so work with them all together. they won't feel as frightened if they have someone with them. 

here's come trust training methods you can work with in conjunction with the forced socialization. sit beside the cage and read aloud or talk on the phone. this get them used to your voice and being so close to the cage gets them used to your smell some more. as you are not directly interacting with them they have a chance to watch you and see that you are harmless. if you like you can even open the door and leave you hand resting inside. they can come see you when they want and they can walk away when they want to. this gives them some time to get used to you on their terms as well.


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

Well the picking up and waiting till they stopped squirming didn't work either, i suck >.< I just didn't want to grip them any firmer. I used one hand over their body and wrapped my fingers around under their shoulders and picked them up, my other hand came in to support their lil pawsies, but they just squirmed their lil socks off to get away. I tried a few times on each rat, but the good thing is it didn't spook them (or not too much) as they will come up to me still on their route round the free range area.

I find it all a bit disheartening (the fact they try to get away from me) but i'll keep picking them up anyhow seeing as it doesn't seem to scare them away, they might get used to it one day Smile I'll 100% rat proof a blanket too and try that tomorrow.*** (I added that bit as an edit to last post instead of posting again, shoulda just made a seperate reply )

I talk to them quite often, i'll sit there and stare into the cage talking at them. They don't come out all that much, and even then it's only for a short amount of time (maybe 10 minutes for all 4 of them) then they'll mostly go back in with just 1 or 2 wandering about. They spend most of their time in their homemade house though, they'll come out maybe 3 times a day. They'll always sniff at my hand or finger if i put it in the cage or between the bars. 

I'll go back to trying to pick them up


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

try bringing them close to your body and move away from the cage. mine are all socialized but even my most cuddly will squirm to go back to the cage (then they realize what they did and want me to pick them up again, then they want in the cage again... :lol: silly rats). 

when you interact with them in the cage, what time of day is it? rats are nocturnal by nature, they will adjust to our routine but they will still be more active at night. you could try holding them during the day time (i find mine most sleepy around 1-2 in the afternoon but you may notice a different time for yours) when they are sleepy and playing with them in the cage during the night when they are more active. that may show faster results. letting them out to play for an hour or so then trying to cuddle with them after they've had they're fun and are tired out may also help you out some.


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

It's at totally different times of day whenever i interact with mine, my work isn't a strict 9-5, so i can do nights, early or late shifts. Most sleepy....well mine sleep virtually all the time so i can't tell when their most sleepy time is  If they're in their cage they're pretty much just all huddled up in their corner hammock or house so i can't play with them, they'll sniff me if i put my hand near but that's about as playful as they get. Or i'll get a stroke in as they'll be pinned under another rat and unable to evade my stroke attempt


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

If anyone else has any ideas, please feel free to share!

I'm still picking them up several times a day to get them used to the feeling, they're still not liking it though  They never seem to just calm down and stop struggling unless it's to catch their breath after struggling so hard.


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

i posted some links to help with the same issue on this thread. http://ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=9192.html the first one is your thread. the other two has some more information you may want to read though. 

i'm sorry i'm not more help right now. my head just isn't in the right frame right now. once i've got it back on striaght i'll come back and offer some other methods. in the interm i hope someone else will be able to help you out some as well.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Are you making these 'pick up' sessions or any playtime sessions last at least 20 minutes? The reason that 20 minutes is key is simply because a rat cannot hold a fear for longer than that amount of time. Even if you do this with your rats in pairs in a rat-proofed space, if you keep them out for approx half an hour a few times a day, results should be seen quite quickly. I think you said they get 10 minutes each? All you are acheiving with such a small playtime is allowing them to work themselves up, get over-excited. When they beg to go home, you're enforcing their behaviour by allowing them to.

I suggest you take their playtime to another room that is away from the cage. I use my bathroom right now, as there's no escaping from it, but a couch or a bed will do fine. Just let them run free around you, if you can take their homemade house from their cage and place it opposite to you. This will give them a reason to feel secure, but upon entering and exiting they will see you and note your presence. Take some yummy hand-fed food like yogurt or babyfood and just work on touching them. Girls at that age are bound to be exitable and probably don't want to sit still longer than 2 minutes to be petted, but developing that physical relationship (even if it's picking them up and giving them a quick kiss or tummy rasberry) is important.

If you continue in this way for extended periods they should get used to you as a piece of their ratty furniture and start using you as a play thing. Attempt to interract with them as much as possible, offer them yogurt, tickle them etc. Sometimes you may touch them, they zoom off them stop and backtrack slightly - why not turn this into a play exercise my gently ruffling the hair on the top of their head (to initiate play) then just tickling their sides, chasing them around with your hand etc. I have two baby girls at the moment who love to play hand-wrestling, and they will never sit still either! Free spirits! Lol

How far from you do you hold your rats when picking them up? Why not try holding them against you, cupping them against your body? Rats held in front of you on a hand can often get nervous, but they seem to calm down when in close proximity/shelter of you. Pick them up like you would a coke can (fingers under the shoulder) and then just hold them against you. I would even suggest removing your 'coke hold' once you are cuddling them, as mine never seem to react well to me continuing this longer than I have to - it's a place A to place B hold, and they make that clear lol.

The key at the moment for you, I think, is contact. You getting used to touching them, and them getting used to being touched by you. You don't need to do any strict methods or training on them to acheive a good relationship at this point - you just need to persevere and maintain some regularity and I have high hopes that this situation can be turned around quite easily 

Hope this helps


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

Excellent advice from all, thanks very much 

There's pretty much only my bedroom that i can freerange them in and i've started to place their cage outside of their special "rat only" area. I put their lil house in the area with me but they still get bored and head in there after 10-15-20 minutes (depends on their attention span), even if i put loads of stuff for them to climb/hide/burrow in they'll go back to their home or find a corner to snuggle up in. Seems like they just get bored easily.

If i can't lure them out again with some veg or treats i'll just lay outside and read my book till they decide to come out again, which is quite a while sometimes.

I hold them close after picking them up but they still struggle to get away if i hold them firmly or just let them loose on my cupped hands. I just pick them up in turn now every so often when they pass or crawl on me to get them used to me. Either they don't evade as much now, or i'm better at catching them as i don't have to chase them around for ages with my hand now when trying to pick them up 

Hopefully they give in soon and realize that no matter what they do i'll wanna pick them up, they might even enjoy a scritch after they get used to me....if they stay still that long ^^


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

that's a wonderful update. i'm glad things are turning out well for you and your ratties now. keep it up and be little love bugs in no time!


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

I'd like my rats to stay for free range time for, well...longer. It averages so that after 15 minutes they just seem to get bored and go to their cage (which i now take outside their free range area most of the time), their lil house, or they'll just find a corner to all pile into and snuggle up at. This is a bit tedious when i'm trying to socialize with them as i won't hit the 20-30minute minimum time limit that i'd want them to be around me for (if they pile into their house/a corner they usually end up facing away from me, so i can't just lay outside so they can get used to seeing me as all they see is a wall).

If i put stuff for them to climb/burrow/tunnel then still get bored as quickly as if i just have a clear floor with me and their house in it.

Although i did find out lastnight that if they snuggle up in a certain corner and not in their house they're defenceless against scritches. I snuck up on Molly lastnight when she was in this particular corner and she must have been to lazy to move her head away from my finger, so i scritched her and stroked her head and she ended up boggling at me. This surprised me as they all avoid scritch attempts and just put their nose/mouth against my finger when i try, she still does it this morning, i guess she forgot she didn't mind it last night 

They don't move about in their cage much either, they'll just sit in their hammock/house all piled on top of one another looking extremely uncomfortable. I don't like disturbing them when they snuggle up, especially in their house, they give me really dodgy looks  Or might it be necessary to disturb them so i can get the target 20-30 minutes target time with them for each "love your owner" session?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

you could try starting out with a bare floor then after 10 mins or so add new stuff in for them to explore and play with. do you have one of those feather boas? i have not met a rat yet that won't chase and tear at that thing. 

taking them away from the cage s they can't get back to it on their own is a good step. when they go to snuggle in their hut thing get your hand in there and stritch them. same with the corners like you did the other night. sounds to me they're getting sleepy after that play time though. how old did you say they were again? when they're sleepy is an excellent time to get in those cuddles. 

but if they are comfortable to be falling asleep outside of their cage and with you nearby you are making huge progress in their trust of you. congratulations!

as for the cage, how big is it? what toys are in it? how often do you change the toys around? they may be bored, or they may just be tired. what time of day were you looking in on them on? keep in mind rats are nocturnal by nature though they will adapt to our time as well somewhat. they are still going to be most active at night. during the day all my rats do for the most part is sleep in their hammies or piled too many into a hut. it looks crazy uncomfortable but they seem to enjoy the rat pile and they can move if they wanted too so i guess its fine. we'll call it a rat thing shall we...  :lol:


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## Tom-n-Sid (May 23, 2008)

ive had mine a few days and after 5 minuets was like, AHH! they hate me! but soon realised there just scared to death of me, i brought 'Pants' today Sids brother but sids been with me a few days now. He hapily sniffs me and lets me get close to him now. In honestly im probably as scared of him biting me as he is of me sqwishing him, ive got them in there cage rite next to me on my bed with a couple of candles on so i can see what there doing and so they can get used to me, i have dangeled my arm in the cage a fair few times and sid is getting more and more curious of me and im getting more comfatable with them to. i read some where about making freinds with them etc and noticed the word trust and it completley changed the way i aproached them i realised they do want to be my little freinds that keep me awake all night but they had to learn to trust me first! i cant wait to see how much more they progress over the next few weeks/months


PS: be verry calm around them hardly any noise and no sharp moves them. ive noticed it puts the wind up mine!


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## Carlito (Apr 27, 2008)

I can't stroke them while they're in their lil house, for some reason they always just move their head away or push my finger away (can't fit me whole hand in there) with their nose or paw. I was going to say my work hours probably ruined their sleeping schedule, but then all they do is sleep, so i'll scratch that  I work different hours every week though, including nights, so they don't get fed/free range time like clockwork, it's whenever i'm awake and home.

They're 9 months old and their cage is about 105cm tall, 40 deep, 70 long (critter 3, big but an evil and cheaply made cage, bleh). They don't have toys as such yet, but they have hammocks, a couple of houses.

Whenever i look in on them they're sleeping even though their cage is pretty much open all the time i'm home.

They feel most safe when they're all snuggled up in their house, would this mean it'd make them dubious of me if i were to violate their space with my hand to "try" stroke them, or remove them from it to encourage them to come play?


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