# Help Me, Please! I have babies and I NEED accurate information.



## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Long story short: I sent my rat to a "friend"s house because there was a chance that she could be sick(I thought that maybe she had ringworm, and the "friend" is a vet student with over 40 rats who LOOK well taken care of.) and the girl "accidently" let her get pregnant. Nevermind that the person in question has THREE rat cages and could've kept the males and females separate, seeing as OBVIOUSLY, they are pet store rats, and should NEVER breed. 

Anyway, I immediately asked for my rat back, babies and all, and the girl accuses me of not taking care of my rats properly (because I didn't take her to the vet for ringworm in the first place, which by the way, she didn't HAVE ringworm it turns out.) and says that if I don't turn my rat over to her, she's going to get a relative of her's that's "like" the SPCA where she lives (one state over) to come take my rat away from me. 

So I told her that if anyone has any legal authority to take my pets away, and they plan to act on that authority, they need to contact me personally. She immediately changed her story and the relative dissapeared from it. 

This whole thing started when I told her that I was getting my rat fixed (because she likes boys better then girls as playmates, and it's supposed to be beneficial to females in terms of mammary tumours). I have a feeling that she let her get pregnant because she thought that I'd tell her to keep her if I knew she was pregnant, since I don't know alot about taking care of babies. I think that she wants to "breed" my rat more in the future, which is why she turned on me when I told her that I was getting my rat spayed, and I didn't want her to have any babies. Oh, and the reason she wants to breed her so bad is that she's a "rare" color. She's a creamy fawn with ruby eyes. I don't know how rare that is though becasue I don't know anything about breeding them other then you DON'T OMG intentionally create a litter of pups with no bloodline history and no place to live. Not to mention, it's sick to recklessly bring lives into the world solely because you want to experiment with COLORS. And the audacity to take someone elses pet and get them into a situation that could cause so much harm is soooooo;....INFURIATING. 

But to the reason I've written this topic:

I need to know the little things about caring for babies. The stuff that I can't find on the internet, that you usually only learn through experience. I want all the babies to live, and I need all the information I can get. I know not to disturb the babies untill they are at least a week old (but I'll probably wait two weeks, just to be super safe) and I know to keep the mam and babies by themselves. I know to keep mama on a diet high in protein, I was thinking hard boiled eggs and canned tuna, since I'm on a super tight budget. (of course, only as a supplement to her normal diet) 

I need to know, when can any males get my mama pregnant? when is it ok to separate mama and babies? when is it safe to get mama fixed? I'm goin got get them all to a vet as soon as I find one in my area, I'm checking out the latest suggestion tomorrow, but it would be realyl helpful if anyone on here could answer my questions. 

Well, I have to go. It's 2:05am and I've been researching online since 8pm. I have to go somewhere reallyl important in the morning...welll, today, but I'm getting my rat and her kittens back tomorrow (today) at around 6pm. 

Thanks so much, any suggestions, things that you think I haven't thought of, ANYTHING is help. 

-A.


----------



## Gabrielle B (Jan 16, 2009)

Wow that is the most terrible thing I have heard in a long time  poor rattie  Anyways, as for mum and bubs, you can hold the babies at this age (providing mumma rat is comfortable with you doing so) the earlier you handle them the better  You can seperate the boys from mum at 4-5 weeks old (do it at 4 just to be safe) and rehoming should be at 6 weeks  You could aslo cook up some veggies for mum and mash them up  and a little bit of meat couldnt hurt  (something like chicken would be good  ). What kind of enclosure will mumma rat be in? as at this stage, its is best for mum and bubs to be in a converted tub (like this http://www.dapper.com.au/articles.htm#cage ) as there is no chance of bubs falling through the wire and getting lost  If youre worried about ventilation, you can also do some holes in the sides (at least 3 inches from the bottom so that bubs cant fall out). As for spaying after the bubs....thats something you will have to consult your vet about


----------



## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

That tub cage is brilliant. And affordable, thank you. 

She has them in my 2 story My Super Pet cage right now, the tub in the bottom is over three inches deep though, so I don't know if that's ok or not? I have aquariums, but I'll probably go and make a tub cage if putting them in the bottom of the wire cage (it's probably 5 inches deep) isn't adequate. 

I'll surely whip her up some veggies, but I didn't think about chicken, thanks! 

She actually just had the babies today. (I don't know if I was clear about that....is it safe to hold one day old bubs? Or did you say that becasue you thought they were older? I want to be absolutely certain, so I don't hurt them. 

Thnaks for the info about the boys though, I couldn't find that anywhere. I'll have to mark my calendar so I don't forget to separate them...

thanks so much. I really appreciate your response.


----------



## Gabrielle B (Jan 16, 2009)

Hmmm whats the bar spacing on the cage? little bubs can squeeze through the wire pretty easily, though this cage would be ok for the first 10-14 days (once they open their eyes and start squirming about, put them in a converted tub with vermin wire (5mm squares)) 

Handling at day old is perfectly ok  But if you dont feel comfortable handling them at this stage, it would be ok to leave them for a few days  Just try to handle them as much as possible so that they are friendly, that way they will have a greater chance of being adopted  

If you can afford it, you could buy some baby food, one that has a mix of meat and veggies  Something palatable and high in protein  

Hmm....i hope i answered all your questions lol its 1am and im a bit out of it


----------



## FeffOx (Feb 8, 2009)

All I know is mum needs extra support to help feed the bubs so you can feed her egg also. 
Good luck with them


----------



## 3pidemic (Feb 22, 2009)

That is horrible what happened. I'd sever any contact with that girl. And if anyone has any grounds to have any animal welfare agency called on them in this situation is her. Over forty rats could be considered hoarding and if she's breeding them I doubt she's taking proper care of them. 

On topic though. 

You can hold the babies as soon as day one, mama won't kill them because they smell like you. You need to atleast get a head count, make sure there aren't any stillborn babies in the enclosure, and check for milk bands. Mama might be nippy/aggressive, it'll pass eventually she's just being protective. If she does try to bite, lure her away from the babies so that you can check on them. Treats work wonders for this. 

Egg and chicken are great little bits of extra protien for mama. 

The main thing to worry about with wire cages is mama taking the babies up to the higher levels and them falling off. Personally I think the only time it's okay for a rat to be in a tank is when they're nursing since it reduces the risk to the babies. The tub thing seems like a good idea too.

Make sure that while the pups are growing and developing that you handle them as much as possible. Give each baby special attention, touch their faces, ears, bellies, feet, and mouths. The more comfortable they get with being handled at a young age the better. Before their eyes open they can move faster than you think they can, but as soon as those peepers are open they're gone! Also don't forget to give mama the occassional break from the babies and lots of lovin's. 

Rats reach sexual maturity at five weeks, so they need to be seperated before then. Four to four and half weeks is a good window. Mama will also be heat as soon as she gives birth and get get pregnant again right off the bat. 

Sexing babies can be a pain in the butt. I recomend waiting till the girls get nipples and going off of that. 

Be prepared to die from cuteness every single day. The way the babies will amaze you and everyday you'll notice something different with them. They will also eat you out of house and home as soon as they start eating solid food. You'll need to watch the food bowl and water carefully as they might need filled more than once a day. 

Good luck!


----------



## Gabrielle B (Jan 16, 2009)

3pidemic said:


> The main thing to worry about with wire cages is mama taking the babies up to the higher levels and them falling off.


I didnt even think of that! Thankyou for mentioning it


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sweetie had her litter in a 2 level small SP cage (green base)...I tied up the ramp tothe 2nd level I had created. Can you remove the ramps and shelves? It was a small cage but perfect for the first week or so, since the wire sits on top of the pan which is safe her the bubs.

I handled the Sugah's from the first day on. Sweetie was a very sweet and kind momma.

I also sexed them at 3 days. I have pics to show you how.

I fed her baby cereal, ensure, lab blocks, veggies, oatmeal, some proteins like egg/fish/chicken, gave her live culture yogurt to prevent the tummy upset nursing mom's often get within a week or so of birth (both Bronny, Sweetie and lately Molly had it).

The babies opened their eyes from 13-16 days of age. Then the fun begins...they wobble around exploring, then once they get that down, they start to Zoom! They will start eating mom's foods, and you'll need to give a lot more. I wean/remove the boys at 5 weeks of age, so they get as long as possible with their mum, and learn how to be a rat...that one week between 4-5 weeks is a very critical time. The girls can stay with mom until you adopt them out or forever 

IF mom seems nippy, its just instinct telling her that she MUST protect her babies. Then you just carefully remove her before handling the wee ones. Handle them for a few minutes this early. They will get used to your scent, taste, and feel, which is important for well-socialized future rats. Mom will also need out for 15-30 minutes a few times a day. Later on once the babies have fur she can come out a little longer.

You will see white/yellow bands on their bellies/sides, these are called milk bands or bellies and it means they are feeding properly.









The skin will thicken up at 3-5 days and you won't be able to see it anymore, so don't worry about that.

Sexing.
Here is a pic with diagram of a 5 week old girl









and a boy









and now a 5 day old baby

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










and a baby boy


----------



## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

thanks so much for your help guys. 

Whoo had only one baby, and it was stillborn. 


i'm calling around now to find a vet for more information on spaying her. 

and she's back with me as of last night. 

thanks again, though, I know that if I did end up with loads of babies, you guys would've helped me through it. 

-Angel


----------



## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am so sorry, but it really is for the best.

Cuddles to your girl, and beats to your "friend"


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

UGH! *beats that girl with a stick* that is AWFUL!!! have you called animal control!? :O *is very mad* I am just shocked!

I'm glad that Whoo is ok, although sorry that the baby died. :{ 

*growls at that girl and hides her ratty*


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

so sorry that your girls little one was stillborn 
how dair your "friend" did this to your baby girl just because she was a pretty colour despite not knowing her medical history and any health problems that she could have passed on to her babies.
40 rats is just rediculous...i think u should get some animal person to go and have a look at the rats to see if they are all being taken cair of properly
if u can get her spayed soon...that would be a good thing.
*huge hugs to u*


----------



## Stace87 (Jun 24, 2008)

maddy said:


> 40 rats is just rediculous...i think u should get some animal person to go and have a look at the rats to see if they are all being taken cair of properly


40 rats isn't a ridiculous amount if the person has the time and funds to care for them properly. Some people on this forum (and other forums) have at least 40.


----------



## teresaisaacs (Jul 31, 2009)

omg i feel so sorry for your girly... getting pregnant and giving birth to the stillborn baby, maybe it was for the best... i cant believe someone would put someone else's pet through that... (((hugs))) to you hun xxx


----------



## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

Stace87 said:


> maddy said:
> 
> 
> > 40 rats is just rediculous...i think u should get some animal person to go and have a look at the rats to see if they are all being taken cair of properly
> ...



Raises hand
<<< one of those "ridiculous" people


Angelcrossmarie, google reveals that you have suspected Whoo as being pregnant before & that you have another rat that was also pregnant. This info supports the fishiness/BS factor of your story above. The photos of the rats, both male & female together & the fact you are posting about other babies being born... without being alarmed is very different from what you write here. The big reveal is the fact that you have announced on July 30th that Whoo had 11 babies... with pictures of the 3 you are keeping. 
http://www.buzznet.com/tags/angelcrossmarie/journals/4385881/ive-up/


Please, for what ever reason you & your friend Beth are allowing these breedings to occur... please stop allowing it to happen. I beg you as someone who rescues. My primary focus lately has been to rescues pregnant females or the litters they produce from being dumped. I have to turn away far more than I can save & when I can't find homes for them my rescue reverts from being a rescue to being a sanctuary that can no longer save additional lives. When people purposefully breed animals & re-home them they are closing off homes that would or could welcome in pets that are in need of homes. I see you post about the horrors you have read about the gassing of dogs & cats.... yet you are breeding dogs, multiple generations of dogs. I really wonder what goes through the mind of someone who speaks out about the horrors, yet is part of why these horrors exist.


----------



## chiklet1503 (Jun 12, 2009)

> 40 rats isn't a ridiculous amount if the person has the time and funds to care for them properly. Some people on this forum (and other forums) have at least 40.


I understand it is possible to care for 40 rats as far as feeding, cleaning and costs are concerned, but how on God's green earth can anyone actually fulfill the time needed to bond with 40 rats? It seems like the more rats you have, the more you have to divide your time and the less you would have to spend with each rat.

To really develop a bond and have individual playtime with that many rats, someone would have to be home all day everyday and probably never sleep! 

How is keeping 40 rats healthy for either party? I'm intrigued...


----------



## Kinsey (Jun 14, 2009)

*growls* if this is true...


----------



## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

A1APassion: you've misinterpreted the situation. It's understandable becasue I haven't posted here in a long time, and I haven't posted about Beth anywhere else. I believe she put Whoo straight back into the cage of males after she had the stillborn, and that she got pregnant that way. I took her from Beth not knowing she was pregnant, and we had babies 3 days after I figured it out. I was alarmed, whether I posted about it or not. I haven't posted here in a while because we've had a lot of problems with our ISP over the past few months and I haven't had a steady internet connection. That and the fact that I'm starting college has left me with little time for the internet. I'm sorry. 

the photos of the males and females together were taken (even if they were't posted) before I read or thought about ethical breeding, and before i knew of beth's plan to "breed" Whoo. Before I even thought of Beth's behavior as unethical, I didn't want Whoo to get pregnant because of what happened to Pricilla's litter. 

I gave Pricilla to Beth before I knew anything about her relative's breeding. I hear that Beth has given all her pets away, but I don't know who she gave them to. Pricilla was pregnant when I bought her from a feeder tank, but her babies all died. When I go WHoo, I suspected that she'd be pregnant too, but she never was. 

I've never bred dogs....? 

I've never dumped rats...? (Or any other animal, for that matter.)

Beth is in no way my friend. She's lied to me and cheated me many times in the few months I've known her. I don't know exactly what's going on with her Uncle's rats, but I hardly think that breeding more rats when he supposedly already has 40 is responsible. Breeding rats who's genetic history you know nothing about also seems like a dangerous thing to do, as 2 of Whoo's babies have died from megacolon. Combine that with the fact that I have no idea where Pricilla is now, and no way to get her back, and you could understand why I'm not happy with Beth at all. 

I think it's great that you run a rescue, and I understand your position on breeding. I agree with you that what Beth and her Uncle are doing is just infuriating. She purposely bred all the rats that she just recently gave away. It's not taking responsibility for her actions, and that is really upsetting. It's exactly what could prevent you from doing what you set out to do in opening a rescue. I understand that, and that's part of the reason that I'm so upset with her. 

Just so we're clear, we're not friends. I kind of hate her. I don't post every problem I have on the internet, but I posted about this particular problem here becasue this is a forum about rats.


----------



## angelcrossmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Anyway:

Whoo and her babies are ok other than the threat of megacolon. We're on the lookout for signs that any of them are developing it late...

I haven't found homes for anyone yet, but I have the males and females separated, and I'm not on as tight of a budget anymore, so I'll be able to handle it financially if I have to kepe them all. The only thing is that I definately won't have enough time to bond with all of them, so I hope I can place them in homes with people who would give them the attention they need. 

I really can't say anything more. I just found out that some vital info regarding my homework that's due tomorrow has gone from my computer, so I have to do everything over. 

If anyone has more questions, I'll be glad to answer them. I can't make you believe my story, I know. It's so bizarre that I wouldn't believe it if it hadn't hapened to me.


----------



## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

We spend plenty of time with the rats. It really isn't a mystical undertaking. 

I have a video posted that shows an example of how we interact with a group as a whole. I also have 3 children at home (14, 18 & 20) who help with the care of the rats. Anyone who has kid's know that you have your "adopted" kids who spend more waking hours at your house than at there own home so that expands our ratty care taking task force to include several others who love our rats since their own parents won't permit they have their own trouble makers. I guess you could say I'm the cool Mom since I have a small zoo at home due to my heavy involvement with rescues & fostering of various pets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGICqS1sg-8

Rats are social creatures & as such they don't require specific one on one interaction in order to be social with their human caretakers. That is the human mind set that dictates that.. "oh how can I express love or feel love if I don't smother or be smothered by attention". I have a few who like to snuggle & those will be the ones that crawl into a pocket or ride my shoulder but typically rats love to explore & being held prevents them from doing what it is that they wish to do. 

In the video I mentioned I have nearly 30 females running around within a secure area outside in the yard. They are free to climb on us or on any of the items I have set about for them to explore. They are taking turns swimming in the pan & fishing for treats. They take turns playing chase running up & down from our laps to our head. I have many who have shown an interest in doing tricks... sit up & beg, spin in circles... I even had one that played a mean game of rat sized hoops with a tiny basket & a small golf ball sized whiffle ball . Wish I had a video of that boy to share but that was a few years back.

Inside the house they behave quite the same way, especially the girls. They run about, explore the immediate area & per their training... they return to us when called. No need to rip the house up looking for a loose rat. I see mentions of this all the time on the various forums. OMG MY RAT IS LOST IN THE HOUSE!!! Doesn't happen here. I only have a couple that I may have to spend a couple extra minutes retrieving but that is only because their training started when they were taken in when already an adult. They are coming along though. For the most part, they come when called. They learn this from us & they learn from each other... again, part of their extremely social nature. I can walk from room to room when a few are out. Some are more motivated to follow than others but their silent to us way of communicating, it doesn't take long before the stragglers catch up to check out what is going on. Obviously we are doing something right with our mischief of 40 plus because like I said, I read on here & elsewhere all the time just how freaked out many have been when they lost a rat & couldn't find it. 

Here is a video of several boys exploring a play area set up inside. In fact, we were doing introductions of 3 separate groups & you can see just how easy it went. This video isn't as cute, no music added but as you can see we interact with the group as a whole. They are just as bonded to us as someone with just a couple because they live in a happy, stable, well socialized colony. After I did the short video I opened up a the area a bit more & stretched out onto the floor for about an hour. Several decided to turn me into a ratty bean bag & they curled up to take a nap on my back. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXZkJgj4Mw

We give specific individual attention to the babies we rescue. We want them to be comfortable with the touch of the huge human monster. We want them to know that we represent care & nurturing... that we offer food & love... that we are not going to harm them. We find time for this interaction because it is important that we stabilize them before we send them to a new forever home. The last thing a rescuer wants is to have the pet they placed be returned because they didn't fit in with their new family. 

Some people may find the notion of caring for so many as being intriguing or maybe flat out ridiculous but that is simply a reflection of their own self imposed limitations or inexperience in working with a large group. At any rate, no one should ever condemn people as being negligent, unhealthy or incapable of providing proper care just because they themselves can't envision being able to do so. The world isn't so black & white. People are capable of so many things & accomplish epic things each & every day with great ease because they don't allow the limits others live by hold them back. 



chiklet1503 said:


> > 40 rats isn't a ridiculous amount if the person has the time and funds to care for them properly. Some people on this forum (and other forums) have at least 40.
> 
> 
> I understand it is possible to care for 40 rats as far as feeding, cleaning and costs are concerned, but how on God's green earth can anyone actually fulfill the time needed to bond with 40 rats? It seems like the more rats you have, the more you have to divide your time and the less you would have to spend with each rat.
> ...


----------



## maddy (Jul 27, 2009)

if u can house 40 rats with out issues then good for u
i just cant see my self having that many though


----------

