# URGENT - Homocidal Rat



## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

Feeding time was a mere 40 minutes ago. I always feed my younger boy - Behr - first because he's a few days younger than his adoptive brothers. Well as I dug around in the fleece, I noticed the paper towel beneath it was covered in blood spots. I found Behr with several gashes on his face, back and neck. He screamed when I picked him up. I sat him in the children's shoe box I put them in to get a better hold on them for feeding and he wobbled before doing several rolls and attempting to climb up a corner. He screamed again when I lifted him so it was extremely obvious the damage was done. I took him outside, kissed his little head and did what I had to do. This little creature that I have tried so hard to keep in this world these past few days - eyes and ears still closed.... I had to take him out of it. 

My three rat pups are.... Were.... In a small "betta" kritter keeper with paper towel on the bottom, followed by a sheet of fleece, followed by fleece scraps. There is also a probe thermometer that records the temperature where they sleep. There is nothing in the bin to do this damage besides one another and the two older pups do have some pretty large teeth now. This leads me to believe one of them killed Behr. Everyone has their share of blood on them so I can't be sure who it was. The older boys don't have their eyes open but their ears did open today. I expect Kaiser to be a little older while Tobias isn't far behind, just a days difference. 

Do they need to be separated? I am concerned now for their safety. 

Did I not clean the formula off well enough and they were just hungry and smelled food on him? 

What do I do? I am heartbroken. I can't stop looking at his mangled, lifeless body. Help me. This has already been a rough day for me with my anxiety and now this. Anyone, please.... Help me know what to do.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

And after all that, I spelled homicidal wrong..... Sigh....


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss. I have NEVER heard anything like this happening to those still this young. Are there any other factors in this? Do you have a cat or other animal that could have gotten to him?


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

No the only other animals in the house are rabbits and the rats are situated on the counter - far out of reach. Not to mention they're in a locking container. Should they be separated or should I evaluate at their feeding in an hour?


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## cagedbirdsinging (May 28, 2012)

Can you get some photos? Size of the cage and what the other rats look like, etc.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)




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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

It won't let me post photos of Kaiser and Tobias but there are photos in my other thread - My Trio Rux, Roux & Splinter. (They underwent a name change)


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

We need a photo of the little guy to get a better grasp on what may have happened. You can use a photo uploader site then paste the url in the chat box


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I've already disposed of him in a way I can't go get him to take photos. It sounds cruel but I'm in the stix and that's just how we do it around here. No waste. We'll leave it at it involved our dog (he's an outdoor dog, wasn't him.). The injuries were gashes, though. I saw a post earlier about a rat biting someone's hand (they got one stitch) and the wounds were similar.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

And you say their eyes are still closed? Are they eating solid food or are they still on formula? This is very unusual indeed. Do you have other rodents in your house? Was the lid on or off of the enclosure? Maybe a mouse got in or something? I'm so sorry for your loss


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Roux said:


> We'll leave it at it involved our dog (he's an outdoor dog, wasn't him.)


I'm confused. Are you saying that you'll blame it on the dog even though it wasn't him? If I were in your position I wouldn't stop till I found out why and how this happened.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

Eyes are still closed, they are still on formula via paintbrush and they are pottied but they no longer deficate for me. I do find little turds in the bin, though. The lid was closed and secure. The lids to critter keepers lock. We have no other rodents that I am aware of.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

No, I'm not blaming the dog. I was explaining how I disposed of Behr's body and that our dog is an outdoor dog so he couldn't have done the damage.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

You fed him to the dog? I'm not trying to criticize or start a feud, but why?


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I laid him down where I knew the dog could reach and walked away. I am moving on Sunday so I was not comfortable burying him here and seeing as garbage day is Monday he would rot in our can. Not to mention I couldn't throw him away. We do not waste here. Waste brings ***** and other undesirable animals. That is how we live out here. It is the same reason I was able to walk outside and end Behr's pain. They are our animals and we love them but we do not let them suffer or waste.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Without the photos we can't tell what may have happened. No one has ever heard of babies attacking babies and I personally think that it wasn't his brothers that done it. It's sad news that he passed while still a baby and we give you our condolences. May the other two thrive and grow. 

I wouldn't separate the remaining two.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

Would it help if I marked on a photo of a baby where the gashes were? I don't know that I would have even been able to post a photo. It makes me sick just thinking about it. The poor baby was torn up pretty bad.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

It may help, you're welcome to post them.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

I did some googling but couldn't find anything about rats committing siblicide. Couldn't find anything about neonatal rats attacking one another at all. Other animals will commit siblicide to remove competition for resources and I think you did mention the Behr was smaller than the other two. He also could have been sick. I know mother animals will commit infanticide if their offspring are sickly. This is just really puzzling.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

I completely agree with Mrs. Brisby. This is unheard of and I honestly don't think the other two could have done this. This is like month old human twins killing it's sibling. Is there anything in the tank they're in that could have done this? A faulty wire perhaps that was frayed or didn't have it's covering? Is the tank itself completely smooth on the inside, no sharp spots or rouge pieces of plastic inside that was a fault from the manufacturer?


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

I was just thinking. Do you have any large invertabrates like centipedes or scorpions that could have found their way into the tank?


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I just walked in to feed them again and Kaiser is gone. Not dead. Straight up missing. I'm scared for Tobias' life now. I know that lid was locked and it was open when I came in the room. I'm surrounding the bin in traps. I can't lose Tobias.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

**** that's scary! Something just straight up carried him off? Are you sure the lid was closed the first time?


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

The only other animals we have are fish.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

I would keep the bin with you instead of just surrounding it with traps. Better safe than sorry.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm positive. I have been diligent since their ears began lifting because I was scared their eyes would open and they would escape. Just found kaiser under the lip of the cabinet on the floor. I have Tobias in my hand but I'm going to put kaisers body in the bin to try to lure the thing back, turn out the lights and go in the other room.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Roux said:


> The only other animals we have are fish.


 I wasn't talking about pets. Centipedes/millipedes, scorpions and other creepy crawlies often feed on baby rodents in the wild.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

We have golden orb weavers and banana spiders. Both get huge. Not to mention wood roaches that I've seen in excess of 3".


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

They're harvesting both sugar came fields and soy bean fields right now. What are the chances this was a wild rat/mouse?


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Orb weavers are completely harmless. The females practically never leave their webs and the males are super tiny. I don't know where you live, but in my part of Colorado i've seen scorpions carry off young deer mice. Did you find Kaiser alive or..?


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Roux said:


> They're harvesting both sugar came fields and soy bean fields right now. What are the chances this was a wild rat/mouse?


 that was my first impression. But you said the lid on the tank was closed the first time around?


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I don't know if we have scorpions. Tobias is being too cute right now. I wish the photo thing didn't just get messed up - I want to share a little light in all this dark. And Kaiser was deceased. I think. I tried to smooth down some hair in the middle of his forehead and he went into a fit; his head was shivering and then he fell over. I was scared to touch him again after that it was really hard to watch. He looked like a robot that was stuck in the way he moved. ):


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Is he deceased or not? You have to be sure before you use him as bait!


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I just put our culprit down. It was a baby ****. Explains why it could get the lid open. And it probably couldn't reach Behr the first time which explains the gashes. If Kaiser was in the middle or he figured out another way to got him but dropped him making the escape, it explains Kaisers death. I'm putting a weight on top when I get up the nerve to put Toby back. He's sleeping in my shirt pocket right now and managing to keep my anxiety at a minimum so he'll stay for now while I calm down.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Can you see his sides moving? Check for a pulse, check for reflexes by pinching his toes to see if he responds. Are his eyes moving? Listen for a heart beat also. I wouldn't want to leave him with that thing if you don't know if he's dead or not.


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## Reedrat (Oct 17, 2014)

Oh my gosh! How did it get into your house! When I was a child raccoons would routinely kill whole litters of kittens on our farm!


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Roux said:


> I just put our culprit down. It was a baby ****. Explains why it could get the lid open. And it probably couldn't reach Behr the first time which explains the gashes. If Kaiser was in the middle or he figured out another way to got him but dropped him making the escape, it explains Kaisers death. I'm putting a weight on top when I get up the nerve to put Toby back. He's sleeping in my shirt pocket right now and managing to keep my anxiety at a minimum so he'll stay for now while I calm down.


wow, that's odd. How did a raccoon get into your house? I would move the tank to a different, more secure room.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I can only assume the extra space under the sink where the pipes run into the wall. I pinched Kai's foot and he didn't move but I touched that spot on his head again and he did. His chest isn't moving but his eyes are still closed so I don't know if they're moving. How do I know if he's dead or not?


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

He needs a vet ASAP!! There's still a shot of him making it through this mess but he MUST see a vet!


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

We don't have any emergency vets here. Should I put him down? 10 hours until I can get him to a vet and he won't eat.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

Can you open his eye? If you shine a flashlight into it you can check for pupil reactions. If they don't contract then it's likely that the **** crushed/damaged Kaisers spinal cord/brain stem and that the movements you're seeing are just post mortem movements.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

No, it's sealed shut. He ONLY moves when I touch that spot on his head, I think he's gone but I'll go through the motions of putting him down just to be sure. I don't want him to suffer.


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## Mrs.Brisby (Jan 4, 2014)

What does he move when you touch his head? Put your palm super close to his mouth/nose, can you feel any air?


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

Get a handheld mirror and put his face up to it. It should fog up if he's breathing


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

His head twitches when I touch the spot in the middle of his forehead where his skin is raised. Mirror was a no-go.


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## new_rattie_mommy (Aug 24, 2014)

Did Kai have wounds on him as well? Do you know why he is in such bad shape or he could possibly be just very badly shaken from the experience. if you came in to the room and scared away the **** before he could do any real damage he may not have hurt him badly. I wouldn't put him down unless there's serious visible injury like there was with behr and you know there's just no way he can make it. Otherwise personally even if he isn't eating I would try to keep him comforted with you until morning, even if you need to stay up with him and let him know everything's ok and take him to the vet as soon as it opens in the morning. I'm not sure if you already put him down though. That is just horrible. I'm so sorry that happened. I did think it was really odd that the babies would've hurt each other unless maybe the whole smelling like formula idea thing but I couldn't think of what else since you don't have much other for pets and your cage locks. A **** could definitely get in there though...it's a real crazy thing it got into your house and did that. I'm so sorry. Keep Tobias nice and safe and maybe move the cage into your bedroom or something until you know for sure the room you keep it in is completely safe. you did say you got the **** though that did it right? Cuz that would be good at least. And if it's too late for kaiser you should definitely look into finding tobias a friend in a few weeks. i think it would be perfect if you could find one that is 5 weeks old and maybe get him when tobias is that old too. The intros probably wouldn't be too bad at that point since they would both be pretty young. I'm really sorry you had to experience this. I can't even imagine it. I have had a few close calls with my babies over the months I've had them and it is just unthinkable.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

Kaiser was dead. He fell/was dropped from the 4ft counter onto tile. I fell asleep with him in my hands and he was cold when I woke up. I don't know what I'm going to do about Toby yet. They do not sell males in my area unless you go pull from a feeder bin and I know Tobias is my heart rat. That will make it extremely difficult to hand-raise another rat I know I won't have this connection with. I may wait until he's neutered and get him a female. Like I said, I just don't know. He may not even react normally at an introduction because he was hand-raised and now he has no rattie influence. He won't know how to behave like a rat. I have time to think so I'm going to try not to worry about it.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I knew that raccoon were smart, but didn't know they were intelligent enough to figure out how to open a critter keeper. I am sorry for your loss and hope you find your remaining baby a suitable companion. You might want to post on facebook... and I know I'll get flack for this... but if there are any snake keepers in your area, they might have males of a suitable age for your boy, since your local store won't sell males. I know some people that breed feeder rats and take good care of them (clean bedding, water, interaction, vet care, etc.) and also breed for good temperament. This might have to be an option if you have no others.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

Toby came from a feeder breeder. They don't sell sexable males. (They don't care to try until nipples are visible on girls) I'm kinda in a predicament because of that. How old does Toby have to be in order to be neutered? Will it change him?


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Babies need companionship. They will never learn rat behaviors without it and it'll only kick you in the butt later when he kills potential roommates or severely injures them. 

Before he is 3 wks I'd get a companion or two. That way you'll be getting furred babies that don't necessarily need as much bottle feeding.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

How old does he have to be to be neutered?


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## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Eight weeks minimum, depending on who you ask. Most will recommend you wait 3 to 6 months. My vet refused to do it until he was 3 months old. He will need a friend before that. Trust me. I kept my male alone until he was neutered and now he has a few issues... But at least he was raised with other rats until he was six weeks old. Toby needs someone to learn to be a rat from.

I'm sorry for your losses.


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## Akarah (Sep 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry for your losses. You took good care of those little ones. May they RIP.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

Maybe if you explain the situation to the breeder they will sell you a male? The only other thing I could think of is to look for a state-based group on FB (i.e. there's a local "GA rat breeders" in my area and "GA feeder breeders / needers" groups. There is also a national group (feeder breeders I think) you could post there with your location and see if someone could help you out. There are no "show" rat breeders in my area, so trying to acquire socialized babies is hard, so purchasing from people off groups like these are my only option. You could also see if your local shelter has any rats (also if there is a petco nearby, that's how I got mine, they will take rescues). 

Good luck!


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## Reedrat (Oct 17, 2014)

I'm sending a private message


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

I find this story quite unbelievable.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I don't know that I can get another boy anytime soon. I made the mistake of telling the guy I was picking boys and he charged me $20 a pop. I am not made of money and my options are extremely limited. My main focus right now is keeping Toby alive through to weening. I'm sorry if that makes me irresponsible but I have to focus on the life that is in my hands not another life that is going to be difficult to attain. If I have to switch my days and nights to accommodate a rat that may not be social because of that, I will. What is ideal isn't always possible right that second. It's a part of life.


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## new_rattie_mommy (Aug 24, 2014)

Honestly if it's that hard to find another male rat right now I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's not the end of the world if your boy is raised alone. My friend who introduced me to rats in the first place got her baby very young, she was 5 weeks but she had raised her alone since and she is fine. In fact, she is an amazing rat who has a wonderful bond with her owner and is super friendly to all other humans as well and I feel that is because of the fact she was raised alone. It is ideal that they have other ratties to keep them company in their cage and give them that rat interaction but there are a lot of people who only have one. If that is all you can have then I think it is just important that you give Toby plenty of attention and make time for him each day so he can get enough interaction and cuddles. you may end up with a rat that is a true shoulder rat since you are all he has. And you could get him neutered when he's old enough and try getting him a companion and see if intros go ok. Neutered male to female intro is the easiest intro and mine went perfectly when I did that. There was absolutely no fighting at all or even dominance fights whatsoever. Do whatever you think is right. But if you are interested there is always ads on craigslist from accidental litters for free babies that you may come across one in a nearby area. That's where I got my baby girl. Or there may be a breeder if you do some research. Or a petstore may even do a special order of one boy for you instead of just their usual girls if you ask.


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## Roux (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm a stay at home mommy so I have more than enough time to devote to him. <3. Thank you for your words it's nice to hear some encouragement rather than "he needs this or else". His eyes haven't even opened yet so when I say I am hand-raising him I mean it. He is still on formula and eating every 3 hours. It's a little different than a 5 week old but I understand what you were getting at.


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## Smarion0006 (Nov 13, 2014)

Roux said:


> Kaiser was dead. He fell/was dropped from the 4ft counter onto tile. I fell asleep with him in my hands and he was cold when I woke up. I don't know what I'm going to do about Toby yet. They do not sell males in my area unless you go pull from a feeder bin and I know Tobias is my heart rat. That will make it extremely difficult to hand-raise another rat I know I won't have this connection with. I may wait until he's neutered and get him a female. Like I said, I just don't know. He may not even react normally at an introduction because he was hand-raised and now he has no rattie influence. He won't know how to behave like a rat. I have time to think so I'm going to try not to worry about it.


I'm so sorry about your situation. That raccoon must have been extremely hungry or something. On another note, my baby Karma was hand raised and I introduced her to two sisters when she was about 5 weeks old. She reacted very well after doing a few short introductions. She can "rat" just fine. Don't hesitate to introduce Tobias to a few new friends. He will be fine.


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## ksaxton (Apr 20, 2014)

This story was shocking to read! I never would have guessed it was a baby raccoon. I'm sorry about your two little ones, I hope Toby stays safe


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Soooo...how did the baby raccoon open the lid of a very lightweight kritter keeper, without knocking anything over?

And do this multiple times, choosing only one baby to attack each time?

And not make any noise or disturb anything else?

And how did it know to replace the lid each time? That must have taken some talent!

How often do baby raccoons come foraging into an actual house, choosing to specifically to go on a search-and-destroy mission for baby animals? 

Read, folks. Think.


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## Reedrat (Oct 17, 2014)

Have you ever been around raccoons? They are super smart and if they get into your house they can do remarkable and destructive things! They can open latches and doors like you wouldn't believe including childproof cabinet locks! Plus they will kill baby animals like youngs chickens ducks or kittens! Not nice critters for as cute as they are!


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## Reedrat (Oct 17, 2014)

Also they can escape from live traps!


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## Ratpax (Aug 24, 2014)

Reedrat said:


> Have you ever been around raccoons? They are super smart and if they get into your house they can do remarkable and destructive things! They can open latches and doors like you wouldn't believe including childproof cabinet locks! Plus they will kill baby animals like youngs chickens ducks or kittens! Not nice critters for as cute as they are!


Yes, I live in a very rural area, and encounter all sorts of wildlife daily. Trust me, if a raccoon enters your house, they don't come delicately or leave a whole row of stuff undisturbed on a table they've been on.

That's part of the reason I don't buy this whole story, not for one single second, but hey, for those who'd rather be blissfully duped, carry on ;-)


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