# a rat owner and snake owner?



## AllAnimalsLover (Feb 14, 2016)

Ok so I don't own any snakes.... yet. But I have always loved them. You would think that a rat owner and a snake owner wouldn't mix in one person for obvious reasons but I love them both. If I were to ever get a snake that would need mice/rats for food I would obviously only feed frozen. Nothing in the world could make me feed a live animal to a snake. And from everything I have heard it is much safer for the snake to feed frozen than it is to feed live. I would also make sure to keep any rats I owned at the time in a different room from the snake and always wash my hands after handling either so smells don't provoke bites or attacks. Anyway, I was just wondering if there were any other weirdo's like me that enjoy these 2 amazing creatures.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I understand why you would want to feed frozen rats/mice as opposed to living rats/mice to a snake. However, know that pet stores usually freeze the rats and mice alive which in my opinion is worse than being attacked by a snake. In any case, if you ever buy frozen rats, put them in the freezer right away as they are not always completely dead Seriouly.


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## Zanie (Dec 30, 2015)

I had a snake before I had rats.  They're cool animals... even if I was like 7 at the time.
But if I were to have a mice eating snake I'd breed my own. That was I'd know they'd be well taken care of with good, big and enriched cages, and humanely killed of course. 

As it is, I enjoy rats more than snakes, there's nothing I feel a snake can give me that a rat can't give me better.. so it's unlikely that I'll ever get another snake. But they're nice too.


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## notbritney (Feb 3, 2016)

We have two snakes, though my partner is more of their owner than I am. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, if I'm honest. I love our snakes, all our pets are family, but I still feel incredibly guilty when it's feeding time. I cannot look at the frozen mice and pretend they're just food, I guess. 

It's incredibly dangerous to feed snakes live mice/rats, and outright foolish. I know a few people that started off as snake owners, and found themselves rat owners after live feeding went horribly wrong. Thankfully my partner is a responsible snake owner, and always has been, even before I came along with my rats and showed him what amazing animals they are.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes it is dangerous to feed live rats/mices to a snake. The mice/rats can inflict nasty bites to a snake. However, being frozen alive (and that is how most pet stores do it) is way worse for the rat in my opinion. So frozen rats is better for the snake but usually not for the rats/mice. Think about it that way: would you rather freeze to death for a hour (more?) in the dark with other rats attacking you because they are panicking or be stangled for 40 seconds? Furthermore many snakes won't eat dead preys. I have nothing against people who want a snake as a pet by the way, it is a free country. If I were you I would feed the snakes mice, not rats. I personally wouldn't be able to say those are my loving pets, but those are just snake food. (Not saying that mice feel pain any less or are less worthy of being pets). Just my opinion.


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## kksrats (Jul 25, 2014)

I've never seen a supply store sell rats or mice that they just throw into the freezer. That'd take up too much room and it's just not efficient. If you're ever concerned about it, a good way to tell that they weren't just thrown into the freezer is by how they're packed; if they're nice and straight/flat, then they were killed some other way and then placed into bags to be frozen. You can always try asking the store how they euthanize the rats as well. Some might be reluctant to say, but it's worth a try. As for just feeding mice, I don't see how that's any different, mice are living animals too and a lot of snakes quickly become too big to just eat mice unless you want to feed them every day (mice are also much more likely to bite a snake). I have fed my snake both ways (live and frozen). Live feeding is really just an awful experience if you like rats plus it's not very safe for your snake if they're not quick to strike and strangle. Unfortunately, for snakes that refuse frozen food, it becomes necessary sometimes but only in extreme cases I think. Snakes are really amazing creatures and can go for extended periods without eating. If your snake is on a regular feeding schedule with frozen food and stops eating, it's not necessary to jump immediately to trying live food. Lack of appetite could be due to something serious like sickness or something innocuous like a change in the weather/temperature of your home. My snake eats far less during the winter months even though his tank stays roughly the same temperature all year. It's just a matter of knowing your animal. If you are serious about getting a snake, make sure you get a captive bred snake and not one that was wild caught. Wild caught snakes are usually the ones that will refuse frozen food and do not typically have great temperaments.


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## Zeri (Feb 4, 2016)

i currently own a snake and rats. i love them both  i am an all around animal lover. i adore all of earth's creatures. it is good practice to wash or sanitize you hands in between handling any animal anyway, but be extra careful not to let a prey smell stay on your hands if you are going to be handling a predator, and vice versa.

i handled my snake the other day and then shortly afterward handled my rats and they seemed very skittish even tho i washed my hands. the snake smell was probably on my shirt. i cant think why else they would be nervous as they are pretty tame rats. so just be careful about cleanliness if you own both kinds of pets


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## JAnimal (Jul 23, 2014)

Zeri said:


> i currently own a snake and rats. i love them both  i am an all around animal lover. i adore all of earth's creatures. it is good practice to wash or sanitize you hands in between handling any animal anyway, but be extra careful not to let a prey smell stay on your hands if you are going to be handling a predator, and vice versa.
> 
> i handled my snake the other day and then shortly afterward handled my rats and they seemed very skittish even tho i washed my hands. the snake smell was probably on my shirt. i cant think why else they would be nervous as they are pretty tame rats. so just be careful about cleanliness if you own both kinds of pets


Very true with the smell. I was riding horses yesterday and when I came home my dog and cat freaked out because I smelled like horse. My rats didn't mind surprisingly though.


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## Fu-Inle (Jan 22, 2015)

Ha, I used to volunteer at an equestrian park. I would come home stinking of horse and my rats wanted nothing to do with me. I also found a big dead rat in one of the horses water buckets on the same day I decided I wanted pet rats. The conversation I had with my mother when I got home was pretty funny. "Today I saw a giant dead rat in one of the horses water buckets and I was told to clean it very thoroughly so the the horses don't pick up a disease, oh by the way, can I have pet rats?"


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

I own both. I currently have 11 snakes (plus some geckos and a BTS) and I have pet rats. I actually keep them all in a single room, but on opposite sides of the room. I have never had an issue with the snakes going into food mode just from the presence of the rats in the room, but you can be sure that I always wash my hands after handling the rats before I handle the snakes. Most of the time, I try to do all my reptile maintenance first, then work with the rats. I feed f/t mice and rats (and even some day old chicks) but I buy my feeders in bulk from companies that specialize in that online and then ship them frozen (using dry ice). The feeders I get are always clean, well packaged, and never thawed.. I do not advise buying frozen feeders at chain pet stores for multiple reasons.

On the subject of how feeders are euthanized, It is illegal to "just freeze them". The only two humane recognized (and legal) ways to kill feeders are by cervical dislocation or by CO2 gassing. When done correctly, both of these methods are as painless as possible for the rodents.. If CD is performed correctly, death is instantaneous. With CO2, if it is done correctly, the rats get drowsy, slowly fall to sleep, then the gas is increased until they die. The good feeder companies pride themselves on selling clean, well-cared for feeders, so it behooves them to kill the feeders correctly so they don't freak out and injure themselves during the process.. they would also be subject to fines and loosing their license with the FDA if they killed them inhumanely. 

It is unpleasant to think about, but cats and dogs eat meat too.. the difference is that it is far easier for owners to feed meat out of a can or in kibble form and not think about the cows, chickens, etc. that are slaughtered to provide it. I eat meat myself, so I recognize that as something I have to deal with. IMO it is ok to raise animals for meat, whether it is to feed another animal or a human, as long as that animal is treated with respect, well cared for, and killed as humanely as possible. 

I feed f/t because it is safer, it is cheaper, and it is more convenient. That said, I have two snakes that are making me consider feeding live... one of them is a male hognose that has been virtually fasting for going on 2 years.. I'll get him to eat a f/t feeder maybe once every 2 months.. I offer food bi-weekly. The worst part is, I have no idea why he started refusing food I've tried everything and it is basically down to either trying live, or watching him starve to death. My other problem snake is a female BP who used to be a great eater but in the last 6 months has gone off food.. She used to eat medium f/t rats weekly. Now she won't touch rats and might take a large mouse or two if I'm lucky.. The problem is that this means she has lost a lot of weight and visibly looks unhealthy. Both of these animals have correct housing, temps, and humidity, so it is just a mystery. It was never my intention to even consider live feeding, but in this case, circumstances may force my hand. 

AllAnimalsLover- If you think you'd ever seriously have an issue with feeding live, then I'd suggest getting a species that is known to have a rock-solid feeding response and is already eating f/t with gusto. My boas are great feeders and will take anything anytime, even a f/t feeder that isn't normal rat / mouse body temp. That said, most boas may be too large for a beginner snake, so something like a kenyan sand boa (eats large mice or rat pups for female boas is largest feeder size) a corn snake, or king snake would be better to start with. 

If you decide that you're seriously considering getting a snake, let me know and I can point you in the direction of some good forums, equipment, and online f/t feeder sources. Just like with rats, pet stores don't know much about snakes and proper care / housing, so it pays to have a good forum to browse for info and ask questions.


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## AllAnimalsLover (Feb 14, 2016)

kksrats said:


> I've never seen a supply store sell rats or mice that they just throw into the freezer. That'd take up too much room and it's just not efficient. If you're ever concerned about it, a good way to tell that they weren't just thrown into the freezer is by how they're packed; if they're nice and straight/flat, then they were killed some other way and then placed into bags to be frozen. You can always try asking the store how they euthanize the rats as well. Some might be reluctant to say, but it's worth a try. As for just feeding mice, I don't see how that's any different, mice are living animals too and a lot of snakes quickly become too big to just eat mice unless you want to feed them every day (mice are also much more likely to bite a snake). I have fed my snake both ways (live and frozen). Live feeding is really just an awful experience if you like rats plus it's not very safe for your snake if they're not quick to strike and strangle. Unfortunately, for snakes that refuse frozen food, it becomes necessary sometimes but only in extreme cases I think. Snakes are really amazing creatures and can go for extended periods without eating. If your snake is on a regular feeding schedule with frozen food and stops eating, it's not necessary to jump immediately to trying live food. Lack of appetite could be due to something serious like sickness or something innocuous like a change in the weather/temperature of your home. My snake eats far less during the winter months even though his tank stays roughly the same temperature all year. It's just a matter of knowing your animal. If you are serious about getting a snake, make sure you get a captive bred snake and not one that was wild caught. Wild caught snakes are usually the ones that will refuse frozen food and do not typically have great temperaments.


Thanks for the information!! I was unaware that some suppliers froze their feeders alive, but it is really good to know that some don't and that simple questions can inform me of this. If I were to get a snake I would feed it whatever it needed, (mice, rats, or whatever else), would make sure it was captive bred, would make sure the 'food' was killed an fed humanely and safely, and would switch to feeding live mice/rats as an absolute last resort (I am not sure I could deal with experience as you mentioned). This is really good information, thank you (and everyone else who posted) for the thoughts.


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## AllAnimalsLover (Feb 14, 2016)

Artgecko - Thank you so much for the information. That is a lot of snakes! I was under the impression as well that "just freezing rats/mice" would be illegal and had never thought before reading responses that that may be the case. I would definitely get the information from my supplier before hand. For now I do not have money to get another pet, especially an animal that requires a teranium, heat lamp, and a lot of research. But it is always a consideration for me and if I get seriously into it I will let you know (if we are both still active of course). Thanks for the info!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I had a python years ago...I was told she fed on dead mice, and that I could just buy frozen mice. Well, TWICE, at two different pet stores I was sold half frozen mice. I don't know how to describe it better. The bodies were still moving a little, it looked like spams, the bodies were hard. My husband (boyfriend at the time) told me there was nothing I could do for the mice at this point, so we put them back into a freezer. If I thought for an instant there was anything that could have been done to save the mice, I would have done it. I hate to talk about it as you can imagine- it was the worst thing I saw/experienced in my entire life. After that I fed my snake live mice as I wasn't going to experience that again. It broke my heart, but she was my responsibility. I hated it, it was horrible. After a few live feedings, I decided to rehome my snake to someone I knew would take good care of her. Her name was Halloween. I loved her and it broke my heart to let her go. So yes, be very careful where you buy your frozen mice or rats from. There was an undercover investigation very recently that showed that petstores (I think one of them was Persmart) were still freezing feeders alive. This is really happening. I wouldn't have known if I had picked up the mice an hour later... I felt horrible because I called beforehand to ask if they had frozen mice and they said yes. Well they just went ahead picked 3 mice from a tank and froze them alive for me. This wasn't what I had in mind at all- I was under the impression that mice were killed quickly and painfully, well I KNOW it is not always the case.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

* I meant spasms


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Argh, I meant quickly and painlessly.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

I've been looking at corn snakes lately. Love reptiles and have always wanted one. Definitely going for F/T. And from what I understand (having volunteered in a raptor/falcon center) CO2 is the best method. Constriction isn't just being strangled. It's being squeezed so tight that your ribcage can no longer expand/gets crushed and your heart bursts from the blood pressure. As an asthmatic and human aware of her own mortality, that's terrifying. With CO2, you get a dizzy high and go permanently to sleep.

I've had asthma attacks where I couldn't find my inhaler and my SpO2 hit 87%. I had a slight headache and felt tired, but I also started giggling uncontrollably. My doctor told me this could kill me, and I was laughing at the fact that I had waited an hour for treatment. Really, in retrospect, I could have very well died there, but it didn't really matter at the time because I was so out of my mind from O2 deprivation that everything was hilarious. From reading accounts of CO2 poisoning, I understand that it's pretty much the same deal. If you do it right, anyway. Don't crank it to the max right off the bat; then you end up truly suffocating them.

As much as I hate mice, I'll definitely be raising them for the quality control reasons.


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## artgecko (Nov 26, 2013)

Chain pet stores (petsmart, petco, etc.) do not freeze their own mice, they buy pre packaged mice from a supplier. The reason they are almost always so "icky" is that the little freezers they keep them in do not work well and get opened / closed a lot. This results in rodents that have been thawed / refrozen multiple times and are often rotting and toxic if you feed them to your snake. 

I would highly suggest anyone looking to do f/t either find a local feeder breeder that euthanizes humanely and freezes correctly or buy online. I use two different companies regularly online and have had great results..and never any nasty, half-thawed, or otherwise questionable feeders. If you are buying at a chain store, you are taking some risks and likely paying way too much. If you buy in bulk online it is less costly and the animals are almost always higher quality feeeders and better packaged. 

If CO2 is done correctly, it is as humane as you can get. I have had to euthanize some of my rats via CO2 (large invasive tumors, MC, and stroke) and although it was hard to do, the rats showed no signs of distress.. they got sleepy, passed out, then I cranked up the CO2 and left them for at least 10 minutes (after turning it off) to make sure they had passed. In a town with no vets that have any rat experience, I consider self-euthanizing better than whatever inappropriate method they might use. I have taken my rats in for medical stuff before (to get mite treatment) but they had to go on the RMCA dosage chart I brought to even know what to use. 

All that said, don't be discouraged if you decide you want to get a snake and have pet rats. It can be done and be done in a humane way that should not make you feel badly about it. My pet rats are my "pets" and they are not raised for food or used as such. As long as I keep them separate in my mind (from the f/t feeders I use) I am OK with it. Kinda like how someone could have a "pet" chicken and still eat chicken.


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