# How to tell if painicing or excited.



## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi i was just wondering how you tell the difference between a panicing rat, an excited rat, or an energetic rat? I like to make the ratty playground on my bed, but its hard to interact with my girls there. I thought it was just excitement but Im afraid It might be panic instead... They run very fast but they dont stay in the hiding boxes that i put out.. They just try to get away from me by climbing off the bed... this happens if i play with them together or seperately... my rats also dont like to wrestle? They just keep running...


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RattyShay said:


> Hi i was just wondering how you tell the difference between a panicing rat, an excited rat, or an energetic rat? I like to make the ratty playground on my bed, but its hard to interact with my girls there. I thought it was just excitement but Im afraid It might be panic instead... They run very fast but they dont stay in the hiding boxes that i put out.. They just try to get away from me by climbing off the bed... this happens if i play with them together or seperately... my rats also dont like to wrestle? They just keep running...


What do you do with them on the bed? How old are they and how long have you had them?


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

I let them wander around, I set up a playground and hide some of their favorite treats in/around it. (I use a modified hamster cage with paper bedding and a couple of rat sized openings for foraging and then some interesting smelling boxes or objects. I put out a pizza box with a few crusts in them or a bottle of my perfume (no spraying) An old Tshirt for them to crawl around in... these are just afew ideas I've used.) They dont act like they hate being pet or groomed or even picked up. They both tolerate it very well. 
I got them from a pet shop and I think they are about 14 weeks old. And I have had them for about a month.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RattyShay said:


> I let them wander around, I set up a playground and hide some of their favorite treats in/around it. (I use a modified hamster cage with paper bedding and a couple of rat sized openings for foraging and then some interesting smelling boxes or objects. I put out a pizza box with a few crusts in them or a bottle of my perfume (no spraying) An old Tshirt for them to crawl around in... these are just afew ideas I've used.) They dont act like they hate being pet or groomed or even picked up. They both tolerate it very well.
> I got them from a pet shop and I think they are about 14 weeks old. And I have had them for about a month.


I have an idea. Why not lie on the bed with them and let them get to know you there...I do this ALL the time with babies, unsocialzed rats etc...it works great...People make the best ratty toys


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

no toys/ hiding places and If they wander away from me, i just pick them up and bring them back?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RattyShay said:


> no toys/ hiding places and If they wander away from me, i just pick them up and bring them back?



Nope, you just lie there and read a book...or watch TV or just watch them. Keep whatever out on the bed you want, as long as you can fit comfortably too  let them get to know you, and they will be more likely to run to you then away. If they don't skitter away, try patting them when they run by...don't try to stop or restrain them, just let them go, they are crazy active young girls...its normal


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

I tried that tonight at work on the couch, (I have a very interesting job) With Gerbil and she ended up sitting on my chest and bruxing while i pet her.. It did take her awhile to settle down and it didnt last long... but It made me feel sooo great! like maybe I am doing something right.. =)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You are doing something right... except thinking your bed makes for a rattie playground. Young domestic rats can cruse along at a human jogging pace for over half a mile without getting too winded. That's a lot of laps around your bed. Obviously every rat owner has to limit his or her rat's play range and if a bed or small room is all you have that's what your rat will have to live with, but keep in mind, given the opportunity, rats can have pretty substancial forraging grounds so staying on the bed is about as natural to a rat as you living in your bathroom. When she dives off the bed she's just exploring, not trying to get away from you. And yes after your rats reach the end of their allotted universe they will come back to you to play.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RattyShay said:


> I tried that tonight at work on the couch, (I have a very interesting job) With Gerbil and she ended up sitting on my chest and bruxing while i pet her.. It did take her awhile to settle down and it didnt last long... but It made me feel sooo great! like maybe I am doing something right.. =)


That's great! Now take both of them out, and then you can learn to play with them. I will dig up a horrible video I have of babies at play...I was trying to teach a newer owner how to get her babies to wrestle and play with her hand with the over the head gentle shake, but my babies were NOT cooperating as much with the video on 

Just do not walk away and forget them...bored babies will start thinking of ways to get off whatever you have put them on


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

Rat Daddy said:


> When she dives off the bed she's just exploring, not trying to get away from you. And yes after your rats reach the end of their allotted universe they will come back to you to play.


Im just afraid that they will set up camp somewhere in my room and will never come back to me and Ill be screwed. I dont feel like they trust me very much... 

P.S. ... I pretty much live in my room =P hehe


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the trust thing goes both ways... And you can almost always recover your ratties with the right treats. Healthy girl rats like to run, and climb and jump. I can't imagine trying to play with my rats on a bed, much less a single room.


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

Maybe this weekend I will clean my room and give them some place to explore. Im sure I have lots of fun things to smell... =) I think I am to careful with them... I would love for them to be able to be out while i watch tv, etc. I just never considered that I would be able to do a free ranging time... Is there a thread that talks about all the things you have to do to ratproof?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Depends on the rats Rat Daddy...most of mine get to run free but I am still working on a skittish little girl...she followed a braver more catchable little girl onto the floor and decided she wanted to play Wild Rat...took me ages and a lot of sweat and worry to catch her again. I prefer socializing first before any free-range attempts. I wouldn't advise a room explore yet RattyShay. You have to make sure your rats will run to you in a limited space before letting them go loose.

I also have several other rescues who are not allowed on the floor as they will disappear...biter Livvy, etc.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi lilspaz68,

I've had an amazing part wild rat with a full compliment of wild instincts and abilities. I can more than appreciate what you are going through with your "shy" rattie.

Still, I'm concerned that a healthy young adult domestic rat might need more room to run and explore than an average bed will provide. And if the interaction has come down to a battle to keep the rattie on the bed I think much of the quality of trust training is being compromised. My rattie will sometimes nap with us on the bed, but once she gets it into her head to go explore, nappie or play time is over and wrestling - chasing time begins. If allowed to wander she'll eventually drift back on her own and will be more willing to play or keep napping. 

RattyShay, 

I'm not disagreeing with anything lilspaz68 said about socializing first before free ranging, it's just that we have a slightly different definition of the amount of space we would allocate for socializing and free ranging. I like large uncluttered spaces, with strategically located and easily accessable hiding spaces to work in. It gives the rat and me room to maneuver and not feel cornered. Personally, I think rats respond better to you if they don't feel penned in and aren't trying to escape all of the time. On the other hand, I have a six year old daughter and have spent more than my fair share of time recovering lost rats and I've gotten very skilled at it. We just got a new rattie yesterday and my daughter's already "lost" it twice. Thankfully this new rattie loves pizza and we had some on hand. That by the way is my first trick in recovering my ratties fast, I choose a super bad for them, otherwise forbidden treat that they absolutely can't resist and keep some on hand. I just walk around the house blowing on the treat to spread the smell and within a few minutes out pops the rattie. I always give them some of the treat when they come out to reinforce the behavior. My favorite go to treats are fortune cookies, other cookies, hot apple pie and pizza.

That said, as to ratproofing... First lock the doors. Doors kill rats. Someone can swing a door open or closed and you will have a tragedy on your hands. Wild type rats can squish themselves very flat and get under some doors, but domestics usually can't, still check the door gap just in case. Unlocking the doors will remind you that your rats are wandering about and will stop someone else from just swinging the doors open or closed. Second remove, protect or keep checking your electric wires. Some rats don't chew wires, for others it's a passion. Chewed electrical wires can start fires, not to mention leave you in the dark and without phone service. Always look where you are walking so as not to step on your rattie and try to close off closets and junk rooms where your rattie might like to nest. I've never lost a rattie down an open heating duct or into a wall, but basically, holes and open ducts should be addressed at least until your rattie learns her way around. Also keep any medicine bottles closed and police up any pills you dropped and didn't bother to pick up. Domestic ratties sometimes actually like the taste of medicines, unless you are treating them when they are sick. Beyond that, you play it by ear. I've never had a rat that significantly chewed furniture, paper or cardboard but some rats apparently do. The object of the exercise is for you to be free ranging with your rats in your home , not so much converting your home into a giant rat cage and then leaving them alone. 

Lastly, try to plan for your rats exploration time. A rat very well might go under a stove or fridge, but I've never seen one that didn't come out within an hour (usually withing 10 minutes) on it's own even without being lured by a treat. My rattie actually likes to clean under things, after a few minutes she starts rolling out dust bunnies, pens, or toys that rolled under the heavy furniture, sometimes I don't exactly discourage this behavior. My point being; don't schedule free range time when you have a doctor's appointment in 15 minutes. Do it when your going to be home for the evening. So if your rattie wants to take a nap behind the dresser, your in no rush to get her back and do keep a few cookies on hand just in case something urgent comes up.

Rats will be rats so remember a well trained rat isn't one that never runs away or hides, it's one that always comes back.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

How did you get your halfie Rat Daddy? I have 7 here, 2 old "tame" boys, and 7 mostly unhandleable girls. The girls are not allowed out of their cage, and they bite viciously.

Is your rat a roofie or a rattus N. Did you have her from birth?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

And sorry ut young skittish domestics can squeeze into terribly small places (not under doors) but behind stoves etc so when you rat proof get down on your hands and knees and really look for any openings.

Free-ranging a room is the ultimate goal, but you want to make sure the rat will come back to you first...which is why I suggest socialization first...let them know you are the Giver of Good Things and take them to places where they can run and play and interact with you. After that they will start to trust you (the eyes will tell you when).


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I got my part wild from a pet shop where the accidental litter was turned in. It was a Rattus n. very very young. Too young to be agressive. And I suspect that the girl at the store knew what she was selling me... She was really pushing this particular batch and the rattie came with the unusual caution... "Whatever you do don't open the box until you get it home." She got unusually assertive and agressive during the pack order thing but we managed it by never backing down, never letting it get out of control and lots of love.

Not knowing how old your girls are, I'm not sure what the appropriate advise is, by my rattie had no particular reservations about tearing up people to whom she was not properly introduced. Once she was properly introduced however, I could even let absolute strangers pet her as long as she felt secure in my arms. She absolutely had to sniff everyone first and very rarely would take an immediate shine to someone and walk on them, she never scent marked strangers.

I personally wouldn't adopt an adult wild type rat. Not that I don't think she would make a great "member of our pack" (notice I didn't say pet) eventually, I'm just thinking about the likely blood loss and pain in the process.

If I had to give you any advise, I suppose it would be: Never corner a wild type rat, so hand in cage is likely a bad idea until they trust you. Never back down, if your not her alpha she won't let you handle her and you will be subject to further attack. Never raise your voice, never crinkle plastic, never drop anything loud and give her (and yourself) lots of places to hide and room to maneuver during training. Do let her come to you and reward her, don't chase her. Your safest in the middle of the room, wild type rats like to stay close to walls and in shadows. Maintain eye contact. My girl for some reason always watched people's eyes. Always let your rat sniff you before touching her. Match agressive behavior with an agressive response move quickly to exert authority and slowly to build trust. Expect the unexpected; my girl could become flat to go under doors, leap over high dividers, climb extension chords and once I saw her put her back against a file cabinet and walk strait up a wall. Expect your rattie to evaporate into open space. And never reach into a hiding place to drag her out. Expect your rattie to climb, mine liked high places and was just as likely to be on top of the fridge watching me while I tried to call her out from under the stove. That said, try to reward good behavior with treats and affection as much as possible. (Note, wild type ratties will taste a new kind of food but not eat it for about a day. She has to know and be used to the treat before it will work.) Wild type ratties have an exceptionally fast learning curve, so start working on commands right from the start. By the time my girl was a year old, I never had to chase her, in fact that was a very bad idea, but if I called my girls, even just once she was on my foot, desk or table within seconds and she was so stealthy I never knew where she came from. I suppose I might make the analogy that it was a lot more like having a pet wolf, than having a dog. We had rules and she had rules as long as we understood each other we got along fine... At the time my daughter was 5 and as she was the ratties first forever mommy, she never got bit and could get away with a few things I couldn't. I hope that helps a little. Lastly, we very much loved our wild girl and she very much loved us, and we miss her... All "training" aside that's what really made it work. If your girls are really wild types and already grown up and completely unsocialized they may almost be better off outdoors. (said with appropriate hesitation and reluctance, but if they have the instincts and the skills they will probably make it there - that's an observation not advise)

I watched my wild type rattie actually deflate herself before sliding under the door, she went flat like a pancake then slid under the closet door like a postcard. She taught the trick to my domestic, but my domestic needs at least an inch and a half clearance to slide under (at almost 18 oz), the wild (at about 8-9 oz) not much more than half an inch. 

I suppose I'm smiling a little at your comment that the ultimate goal is to free range a room. I train shoulder rats and without confusing anyone, its safe to say I do everything you do, pretty much the same way, just on a much, much vaster scale. I start small rat pups on my desk rather than on my bed, but let them free range the house with supervision. We've had our new rat pup for 3 days now and she's seen the underside of most of the furniture and kitchen appliances already. She may not come to command but responds instantly to pizza and she instinctively comes to us when frightened. Otherwise we socialize and build trust in ever increasing scope, I just start bigger and end bigger,

Now that I've got my 18 oz big girl babysitting her new 1 oz little sister, both snuggled up sleeping on my desk, I feel like taking a nap too.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

BTW How in gawds name did you wind up with 7 girl wild types big enough to bite? I can't imagine you had them from birth or they would be better behaved and taking them in as adults is well... just a little bit crazy.


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

I dont feel comfortable putting anyone on the floor yet. I dont think they will come back to me even with treats... Ive had them less then a month and they are my first rats... But I now have a goal to work towards. =)


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Most everybody giving advise on this board has successfully trained at least one rat and likely more. There are several similar but different approaches that work. Most likely yours will be a combination of a few with some flavor of your own thrown into the mix. As long as you work with your ratties *at least a few hours every day* you will have no problem achieving your goals quickly.


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## RattyShay (Jun 11, 2012)

You are very helpful. I really appreciate the advice.


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## pocketmouse (Jun 13, 2012)

Your ratties sound very similar in nature to mine  I just got my first pair of girls in March, when they were 5 weeks old (my mom's friend ended up having an accidental litter, he did a really good job holding them and giving them attention from a young age) and our trust training started out as hanging out on my mom's queen sized bed (covered with layers of sheets for them to run through, which they really seemed to enjoy) eventually though I had to move them into my pretty small room (primarily because we have 4 cats and a dog) and to my twin sized bed (I do still bring them into the living room and other rooms of the house to explore, but only when all my young kittys are out adventuring). I continued doing the same old sheet-layering-bed-hanging-out that I'd done before, but once they got comfortable with my room (which took about a month or so? probably less time than that, but they were already about a month and a half old when we moved them into my room) the first place they started exploring was under my bed. Accepting that this probably wasn't going to stop (unless I got rid of my bed and just put the mattress on the floor) I just decided to clean up really thoroughly under there, and I found a new spot for my boxes of old stuff they had been exploring and replaced them with new boxes of various sizes, some empty, some filled with stacks of papers and crumpled up newspaper. So now I just let them explore under there and I make sure to clean out the boxes every once in a while cause they do end up getting some droppings in there, and I make sure to sweep up regularly. My ratties definitely come up and visit me, so don't worry about that, although sometimes they are stubborn and don't come out right when I want them to, so I'll have to climb under there searching for them (another reason to keep everything clean) but they usually come out with some coaxing (my girls really don't seem to like to be grabbed at, no matter how gentle I am, I think they just get upset that I'm ruining their good time, they're a lil spoiled) but they've always been pretty good about knowing their names so they respond well to me calling them, and in the beginning they really didn't seem to want to stay under there too long at all anyways, they would just go chase each other and explore boxes for a while and then climb back up to find me. I always found that laying on the floor next to my bed really excited them too, they would love to come climb and hop/run around on me, and seemed really happy that I was down there interacting with them (although sometimes they'll just want to play with each other). I found out that the more rambunctious of my two would love to run up and "attack" my hand when I was wiggling it around like I was playing with a kitten (it was really just her jumping on the back of my hand and doing this weird little scurry shuffle thing with her feet just scratching me up barely, it's really cute) so I started doing this to help get her out from underneath the bed as well while calling her name (again, she already pretty much knew her name at this point, and I had found out she liked attacking my hand by playing with her under the covers while bonding on my bed). With time, you and your rats should learn to interact with each other in your own ways, and you'll learn their little mannerisms and personalities  As long as you "rat proof" your room I wouldn't really worry about them exploring (I didn't really change my room all too much -- I just try to keep wires off the floor, or easily within my sight in areas where I know my ratties don't typically play, and I make sure to keep my floor extra clean, and all my windows shut when they're on their "free range" time). Now that my girls are getting older and more comfortable they've been exploring more of my room, Yolandi (my rambunctious one) recently discovered my closet -- so trying to keep her out of there is fun  whenever I shut the door, she climbs up the purses hanging on my handle and up to the CD/movie rack on my closet door. When I tried moving the purses she started climbing up my bookshelf and knocking things over! And they both like to try to grab at the posters on my walls, and climb up and chew and tug on the fabric serong I have hanging up. So you probably will have to rat proof more with time, but you'll get used to things. I wish you and your ratties the best of luck!


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## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

My rats have to make do with my bed, because the rest of the apartment is just not safe. My girls love to be petted and cuddled—but only for a short time, then they have to be off zooming around. But they do come back and demand attention. My boys are still a bit shy and don't enjoy being held; what they really like is to cuddle with me under the comforter. They are much less comfortable than the girls with being exposed, so they are happiest when under something, or burrowing in my shirt, or being held next to my body. Although they do put up with belly smooches (tickling not so much). The foster boys are much less demonstrative, but are more willing to be handled than my own boys. These guys especially like to ride on my shoulder, whereas my own boys are not so enthusiastic about that.

One of the advantages of having four (six, if you count the fosters) is that they spend a lot of time playing with one another, both in and out of the cage. I also find that sibling rivalry actually leads them to pay more attention to me, since they get envious if I pay attention to someone else—they then have to have their own time with me, too! This is especially true since the foster boys arrived.

If you read up on trust training and implement some of those suggestions, you will most likely see a big change in their attitude toward you. My boy Michael has gone from hiding whenever I came near the cage, to asking to be picked up a lot of the time. He has also become an enthusiastic rodentist and likes to kiss my tongue—that's a big change from how he was when he came to live with me. So as you see, a lot depends on the rat's personality, and a lot depends on how they've been treated earlier in life. And you can do a lot to make them happier and more comfortable, too.


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## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

My rats have to make do with my bed, because the rest of the apartment is just not safe. My girls love to be petted and cuddled—but only for a short time, then they have to be off zooming around. But they do come back and demand attention. My boys are still a bit shy and don't enjoy being held; what they really like is to cuddle with me under the comforter. They are much less comfortable than the girls with being exposed, so they are happiest when under something, or burrowing in my shirt, or being held next to my body. Although they do put up with belly smooches (tickling not so much). The foster boys are much less demonstrative, but are more willing to be handled than my own boys. These guys especially like to ride on my shoulder, whereas my own boys are not so enthusiastic about that.

One of the advantages of having four (six, if you count the fosters) is that they spend a lot of time playing with one another, both in and out of the cage. I also find that sibling rivalry actually leads them to pay more attention to me, since they get envious if I pay attention to someone else—they then have to have their own time with me, too! This is especially true since the foster boys arrived.

If you read up on trust training and implement some of those suggestions, you will most likely see a big change in their attitude toward you. My boy Michael has gone from hiding whenever I came near the cage, to asking to be picked up a lot of the time. He has also become an enthusiastic rodentist and likes to kiss my tongue—that's a big change from how he was when he came to live with me. So as you see, a lot depends on the rat's personality, and a lot depends on how they've been treated earlier in life. And you can do a lot to make them happier and more comfortable, too.


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