# Oops Litter in NW Ohio



## nanashi7

Hello,
I've posted my story a bit around but I'll just post it again here. I got two rats from a Craigslist "breeder"; they've ended up being a male and a female. By the time I realized it wasn't just dominance-humping, but full on baby-making, it was too late.

Now, on Monday, my female had her kits -- 14 in total. I don't have genders yet; I am waiting for them to be a little older (I don't trust me to get it right by studying pictures). I want to try to find them as many homes as possible that are more trust-worthy than ads on CL. By my math, they should be gender-segregated by August 26th, and ready to go home right around then too. I would like to keep one or two, but if there is enough interest, I will probably just adopt some older ratties.

I'll only adopt out in pairs, unless you already have a mischief at home that you wish to add a same-sex member to. It'll be $10 for a pair; $5 for one. Unless I'm doing this wrong, I imagine they'll be tame -- they are handled daily already, to check for health (given their number, I check twice daily that Caius is feeding them all). 

I live in Rossford, OH currently but will be moving to Bowling Green, OH very soon. I am willing to drive within 15-20 minutes of both locations -- Sylvania, Perrysburg, Toledo, Maumee, Rossford, Bowling Green, Oregon, and Findlay are the big towns I know around me.

I'll try to update this regularly with their progress -- I've taken it upon myself to photograph them daily.
(A note: this contradicts what I've posted; I had my boyfriend in charge of posting on this when I my internet went down, and there seems to have been miscommunications. That's long-distance relationships for you.)


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## nanashi7

I should probably post pictures of the parent-rats first. Remus; daddy:
View attachment 61330
He is a hyper little thing. He is off to be neutered on the 1st, for those concerned. Caius, mommy:
View attachment 61338
She is more reserved, but I've been working with her on that. She loves to cuddle and groom, and is doing better at being outgoing.


Now, the babies:
View attachment 61290

Here is day-two for the rats: When Caius went to the vet to get checked, I was told they would be born around Saturday the 27th, and should number around 6-8. I didn't even know they were coming. I was wandering about and peered in the bin cage to see if Caius was okay -- and there was a pink eeper! Over the next hour, I kept checking back and the number kept growing; 6, 8, 10, 12. Finally, around 9pm, she finished. I gave her the night to enjoy herself and on the next morning, counted the babies -- FOURTEEN.

View attachment 61298
View attachment 61306
View attachment 61314
View attachment 61322

Here is day-three: Caius naturally separated her litter into two piles, which definitely helped with my panic that some wouldn't get fed. You can also see me attempting to examine the youngins; I was surprised at how mobile they already are! I peered in once and a squirmy little epper had somehow climbed out the nest and wiggled about 8 inches away! They nest is probably 5 inches high around them. 
Caius has since had to put the babies back in one nest; the nest near the basket was getting terribly cold and the heating pad seemed to warm them up too much. However, the babies are doing great. They were pretty quiet the first two nights, which concerned me, but are now vocal little pinkies. And, as I said, they are pretty mobile - their little paws seem to be developing well.


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## zurfaces

I live in dayton and will be going up that way at the end of august beginning of september. I'm not sure if they will be ready then but I can do transport to anywhere along the route from sandusky to dayton. I cannot take them myself I have enough 

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## SheWroteLove1

I wish I could take one! They look adorable already


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## nanashi7

Sad news. Probably because I jinxed it. 
I can home after work to find out headcount is 13.
I checked and I checked again but it is the number I am getting. Maybe you guys can see one little extra one that I am missing. I checked through the bedding to no avail, I can only hope that if I missed something Mommy will spot it. They are really moving now, with more and more escaping her nest. I am trying to replace the paper bedding with a blanket; which is what I should've done in the first place but didn't.

Today is day four; the rats are starting to get little spots/coloring markings.
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0571_zpsb046314a.jpg.html
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0572_zpsaabc5c86.jpg.html


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## Auvreathem

What a great offer. I'd love to have 1 or 2 females to add to my 4 now. I live in centerville so I could definitely meet you half way and pay you back for the rats plus a bit for gas. Hope this works out!


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## nanashi7

That sounds great; I'm going to try and see if the people on here can't help me sex the rats tonight rather than waiting for maturity :]


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## nanashi7

I can never edit my posts >:\

Anyway, here is my feeble attempt to create a website. It's the same information, I've added a few more requirements for anyone else who stumbles on it than I require here for my comfort.
http://caiuskits.webs.com/


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## zurfaces

Auvre I will be coming back from sandusky on sept 6 or 7 possibly the 8 I just realized I booked our vacay for the wrong dates on the confirmation it says the 6th so I'll be calling tomorrow to change that hopefully but needless to say it will be that weekend just not sure which day. I have a small baby acceptable travel cage I can bring them back in I live just off 35 in dayton. I'd need you to get them as soon as I arrive in dayton because I won't bring them near my girls in case they're contagious all my ladies are older so common viruses would likely kill them. We'd obviously exchange numbers prior to then to arrange everything so I'd call when I'm getting near to dayton so you can pick them up. Depending on where you live in centerville I could even deliver them. We're camping up there so I won't be able to pick up any babies except for on the way back.  

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## nanashi7

For some reason, the forum doesn't let me post pictures directly anymore :/

Here are the babies, bear with my inexperience in attempting to differentiate between them:

Head spot/Back stripe (baby 1): http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0588_zpse96dcc1f.jpg.html
Ear spots/dark face (baby 2): http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0590_zpsbdebabcc.jpg.html
Not entirely dark like siblings, but not pale (baby 3):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0592_zpsad0692d1.jpg.html
Head/neck spots (baby 4):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0594_zps7e990702.jpg.html
Dark baby - curly whiskers? (baby 5):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0596_zpse675e791.jpg.html
Head diamond (baby 6):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0598_zps25da93a8.jpg.html
Head diamond - butt stripe? (baby 7):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0600_zps1d50655c.jpg.html
Pale baby (baby 8):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0602_zps024b3084.jpg.html
Dark baby (baby 9):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0604_zps9b42ecc2.jpg.html
Another light colored baby, not dark like siblings. Head/back stripe? (baby 10):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0606_zps55cae84b.jpg.html
Light color helmet-head (head looks like it'll be white?) (baby 11):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0608_zpsaa21b2ee.jpg.html
This baby looks like it has a pure white spot, despite not having any obvious coloring (baby 12):http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0611_zpscf0cf447.jpg.html
Houdini Baby! Smallest of the bunch, quickest of the bunch. Mixture of light/dark (baby 13): http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0614_zps6a83ad22.jpg.html



Anyway; my directions for Ohio are pretty bad. You guys tell me where to drive the babies, and there I'll drive. My big concern is the lack of air conditioning in my vehicle (I've got heat), so that's why I can drive 20 minutes at most.


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## nanashi7

Day 6: They got day 5 to themselves because I was feeling ill. The whiskers are coming in, and a few look like they'll be curly like their father. I did my best to match them, but it was a bit hard. I'm like 80% positive.

Baby 1 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/1-2_zpsa19bcadd.jpg.html
Baby 2 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/2-2_zps290d5671.jpg.html
Baby 3 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/3-2_zps9900733a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
Baby 4 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/4-2_zps21799fe4.jpg.html
Baby 5 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/5-2_zpsf97d3650.jpg.html
Baby 6 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/6-2_zps8644e17e.jpg.html
Baby 7 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/7-2_zpsbcb59145.jpg.html
Baby 8 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/8-2_zps21d45086.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17
Baby 9 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/9-2_zpsa12ed182.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6
Baby 10 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/10-2_zps5226b714.jpg.html?sort=3&o=15
Baby 11 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/11-2_zpsdef21b80.jpg.html?sort=3&o=13
Baby 12 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/7-2_zpsbcb59145.jpg.html
Baby 13 - http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/13-2_zps5714d841.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8


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## rainbowrats

Oooh, I wish I could take them! Sadly, I need more time to find a cage and stuff, plus you're _just _far away enough my mom won't drive me. v.v;


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## nanashi7

Aw :[ They are becoming quite adorable. I have to make sure not to get super attached >.<

Here is the rat-pile today (going to handle them again tonight after work):
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0654_zps21f05012.jpg.html

They are crawling pretty well already. When I held the back-striped black rat (I call it "Batman", because it rather looks like the bat symbol), it clearly showed interest in exploring my hands sniffing and tumbling about. Their ears open in the next two days. They have a fine layer of fur coming in.


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## TexasRatties

Awww they are so adorable!!! I can't stand the cuteness!!!


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## nanashi7

Me neither - part of me wants them to grow up so they can come out and play in free range and the other part wants them to stay young so they stay cute lol


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## nanashi7

Alright. Assuming that studying online pictures can help, I have a ROUGH idea of boys/girls. Keep in mind, on August 5th their nipples should be visible, if they have any, so the sexes should be more definite around then -- and shout be spot in by the 18th XD

Anyway. I won't post pictures saying this one = girl until the fifth but it looks like : 9 girls, 4 boys.


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## Auvreathem

Zurfaces, that sounds great! I'm very excited. Hopefully this will all work out. We can discuss more about this when I figure out how to send a message through this app... Haha


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## nanashi7

Day 9! They change so quickly now! Definately some curly whiskers in the bunch. Again, disclaimer: only like 80% positive. Pink babies now have color and random spots so mea culpa for errors! 

Baby 1 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/1-3_zpscc0979a5.jpg.html
Baby 2 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/2-3_zps9cb9e847.jpg.html
Baby 3 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/3-3_zps54ef43fb.jpg.html
Baby 4 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/4-3_zpsc1bcd655.jpg.html
Baby 5 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/5-3_zps2754cef3.jpg.html
Baby 6 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/6-3_zps0a6a7dd3.jpg.html
Baby 7 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/7-3_zps45f3d82c.jpg.html
Baby 8 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/8-3_zps8e22498f.jpg.html
Baby 9 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/9-3_zps59ad0be7.jpg.html
Baby 10 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/10-3_zps522b352b.jpg.html
Baby 11 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/11-3_zpsb5ae9ecd.jpg.html
Baby 12 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/12-3_zpse2dd8330.jpg.html
Baby 13 http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/Babies 9th/13-3_zpse22339c1.jpg.html


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## Auvreathem

Awwwwwwwwwww they grew up so fast! Thanks for putting the commitment in to take pictures as they grow up! If push comes to shove and you aren't able to sell the ratties, I am willing to take as many females as you need me to. I'm guessing you're going to keep a couple of the cuties though! I would take the males but last time I did that they were very aggressive, smelly, and loud. Plus I can risk having my own oops litter. Lol


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## nanashi7

I look forward to taking their pictures - gives me an excuse to handle them :] They are crawling around and sniffing already. I was told they wouldn't yet have mobility like they do lol. They are also warm and fuzzy ^w^

I'm just happy to find as many of them good homes as possible. Don't feel obligated to take more females than you want; but thanks!
If necessary, my cage splits in two and I have a back up one (not including the bin). Their papa is getting neutered tomorrow, so if I have to keep males, he should definitely be welcoming of the company. I'm ready to keep babies until someone wants them lol.


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## Auvreathem

Great! I'm glad. This means I can put the two most docile females on hold then, right?! Lol. My girls are crazy hyper.


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## nanashi7

The good news then is that the mother is extremely docile, lol. 
When I got rats, I picked males because I heard they were calm and cuddly. However, someone forgot to tell Remus he is supposed to b that way. Caius on the other hand is very reserved. She isn't that much of an explorer, preferring to sit on my shoulder or hide in my lap.
Let's hope personality can be passed down or taught lol


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## zurfaces

I might consider taking just one little girl. I just lost one of mine and her cage mate is alone. How long have you had mom and dad? Do you follow the 2-3 hr rule following being around any other small animal? I'm trying to figure out if I'll need to qt them because I don't know if I can find a qt home and all my girls are old ladies so getting sendai or sda will probably kill them. :/ 

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## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> I might consider taking just one little girl. I just lost one of mine and her cage mate is alone. How long have you had mom and dad? Do you follow the 2-3 hr rule following being around any other small animal? I'm trying to figure out if I'll need to qt them because I don't know if I can find a qt home and all my girls are old ladies so getting sendai or sda will probably kill them. :/
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've had the parents for around two months. I took them to the vet who did a general wellness check, but I know that would not find any hidden illnesses. I do have parakeets and dogs, all of which have been cleared at the vet as well. I don't handle my parakeets ever, really (I've got a flock so they aren't tame).

When I handle the babies or the mother, I wash my hands before handling to be safe. I hadn't heard of a 2-3 hour rule, though. What is it (so I can start using it, if it helps ensure health).

The babies themselves are headed to the vet soon to be checked for health and to be sexed.

If necessary, I have a rather crappy makeshift bin cage, which the babies were born in - it didn't cost very much to make. You would be welcome to it for quarantine - it is 104L. But the decision is yours - I understand not wanting to risk it, and I can't provide much a guarantee.


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## zurfaces

The 2-3 hr rule is when you go to a pet store or a friends house that has small animals rats mice guinea pigs bunnies ferrets and so on you have to wait a minimum of 2 hrs before returning home otherwise you might give your rats sendai or sda which are deadly in older rats or babies. I have plenty of small cages for babies so that isn't a problem I just have to keep rats with potential illness in a seperate airspace and I'm not sure I have that. My dad smokes and my mom has 3 large untrained dogs. So I'm not comfortable leaving them their. Anyways if you start now by the time I get up there they will be good. Quarantine time is 3 weeks

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## nanashi7

Oh, I'm not actually around any other small animals -- today will be the only day, since their papa just went to an exotic vet for a neuter. I'll do that however if I do make a pet store trip ^w^


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## zurfaces

Snip snip  well when im up that way ill be staying in marblehead if I can't find another rat closer to her age I'll get a baby from you. 



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## nanashi7

I don't know where marblehead is, but I do know if it is also towards Toledo, OH our Humane Society recently got an adult female and her weaned babies.


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## nanashi7

Alright, I went through with a friend and tried to sex them twice. We got consistent readings, also consistent with my original ratio (9 girls, 4 boys). Here it goes:
Baby 1 - female
Baby 2 - female
Baby 3 - male
Baby 4 - female
Baby 5 - female
Baby 6 - female
Baby 7 - male
Baby 8 - female
Baby 9 - male
Baby 10 - female
Baby 11 - female
Baby 12 - male
Baby 13 - female


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## nanashi7

Oh, I forgot to add. We had quite the scare today! Mommy managed to houdini out of her cage and while I was at the vet, began taking baby by baby to a new "nest"... She had nine relocated when I found them. She decided out of the many places to go, under my mega huge bookshelf was best. We literally trashed my room trying to find the babies -- the slowest, most careful and organized trashing ever. She's now in a wire cage and is doing fine if not being a bit bitter with me. When she was lost, she came on command - yay? - but seemed to be under the impression I was going to aid her in her relocation. She squeaked the most horrible squeal when she realized I'd trapped her.... That's why there are no pictures today.

The babies are fine and developing great, so don't worry! They are trying to groom already (adorable, as their back legs can't kick) and are entirely crawling. They are growing noisier by the hour, I'd say.

As to their father, he is recovering from surgery just fine. He hates his medicine, certainly, but the doctor ordered new toys and so now he has new toys.


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## nanashi7

They are just getting harder and harder to photograph! They are moving about quick as can be and have fur covering them. Other than white, I believe their colors should be apparent now. Their ears appear to be almost entirely open -- according to my calendar, they should be walking and hearing fine by tomorrow night, and eyes should start opening by sunday! They are grooming much more now, with one of my favorites attempting to sit back and groom her face like grown ups do 

Here is a group-pile: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0683_zpsaa29525d.jpg.html

Here's the females; the one up front is grooming her face!: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0690_zpse18a739b.jpg.html
A better look at them -- two wanderers!: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0692_zpsca6dfcf2.jpg.html
They just won't stand still! A final attempt: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0694_zpsd0317abc.jpg.html

The boys! More mobile, but also easier to contain since there's only four lol:
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0689_zps4267e260.jpg.html


Miscellaneous pictures (I love playing with the babies):
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0684_zpsf145d660.jpg.html
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0685_zps58a69469.jpg.html

http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0691_zpsc78580dd.jpg.html 
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0693_zps462930d1.jpg.html (girls! stop moving!)

(these are while my boyfriend is trying to find the rest of the males in our pinkie-pile
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0686_zps4ea00df6.jpg.html
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0687_zps9420d1f0.jpg.html
http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0688_zpsee20a61a.jpg.html


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## zurfaces

Oh goodness so cute!!! They have wonderful patterns  

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## nanashi7

I was surprised that there is such a variety of patterns. The breeder's rats all looked like the mine do, and so did their litter that I picked my two out of.


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## PaigeRose

Oh goshhhh I would LOVE to take one or even two but I am on the other side of PA ;(

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## Daniel

I'm in Dayton, and it's tempting to take one of the boys (esp either the grey one or the one with a mostly white body), though the markings make me wonder if they are at risk for MC.


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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> I live in dayton and will be going up that way at the end of august beginning of september. I'm not sure if they will be ready then but I can do transport to anywhere along the route from sandusky to dayton. I cannot take them myself I have enough
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe we could work something out, I am also in Dayton. To the OP - I'd be glad to take a boy, as I can do one more with my set up (and I swear this time, no more) or I'd probably adopt all of the boys from you.


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## zurfaces

I can bring back both boys and girls I have enough travel cages. 

They do have high white markings but at least their are no odd eyes as far as we can tell. 



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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> I can bring back both boys and girls I have enough travel cages.
> 
> They do have high white markings but at least their are no odd eyes as far as we can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


By the time they are ready for transport, they should be past the age where MC usually kills them (the ones I had with MC were dead by 4.5 weeks). We'll have to keep in touch then.

Im leaning toward the white body + grey face boy, but we'll see how they come out. It will be either him or the grey one, the other 2 are too close to my boy Tux.


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## nanashi7

UGH. My computer broke. I'm on an ancient monster. Pardon the lack of response, as I have to drive to a family member's house to use it. Also, this bloody post has been lost three times now. I am not a happy camper. [/rant]

Quick sum up, as I don't feel like rewriting a book: none of the parents are high-white, so I am hoping the babies that are don't develop MC. I will try to take them to the vet to determine MC or not at 3 weeks -- what specific babies should I be sure to take in (its $40 a wellness check, as opposed to free for sexing/looking over). Any MC babies will not be available for adoption - I can only hope the MC manifests in a mild, manageable form so I don't have to euthanize. Their eyes haven't opened but should by tomorrow night. A few are peeking out, but not opened entirely. I saw the markings but was praying I was mistaken on HW -- the mom and dad are my first rats, so my research was firstly limited to general care and male rats, then I had to look up females and pregnancy. Now I should research HW/MC.

Tried to photograph the babies, but one baby had to of been photographed twice -- you can see how fast they can walk about. As this isn't my computer I cannot compare and categorize the 13. I also couldn't modify lens glare so the colors were more true to life. On Tuesday, I will borrow a power cord, boot my computer up and clear everything up as well as add more pictures. Took a video of them crawling about: http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/600/gqoakjcftchfqxsnroikyc.mp4/
Pics:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/emdb.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/qw7o.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/cmn9.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/1z1z.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/o1r3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/b0v7.JPG/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/8c3b.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/0qvl.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/xba2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/cyx3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/nrn6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/vwv9.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/drep.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/htj7.jpg/

As I was trying to write this (the first time) I saw a weird white thing woobly atop a hidey tunnel. Upset that Caius was letting a single baby wander about, I rushed over. I saw a 13 pup play party. 3 Minute video (pardon the mess, Caius and I have different ideas of what makes a good cage feng shui, and my cage is now being crowded with toys and such in preparation for ratty play -- cage is suitable for up to three or four adults, so I've decided it'll be a baby cage and then the boys cage when they are separated): http://youtu.be/hpMYvdTx9eM

Stills:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/x08a.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/lnfi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/admx.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/njky.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/ecwq.jpg/

I am hoping my boyfriend can come over again (it's finals week at his school, when mine ended two weeks ago) and help with the mischief. I took a work vacation from the tenth til the twentieth so I can be home more and socialize with them. Ideally, by the end of this week I will be able to tell you which precise baby has curly whiskers. It's hard running a category, watch 12 others, and then making sure the two adults don't try to have an illicit affair. Remus will be sterile by the 14th which will make everything easier. Hard to do much when you are terrified Caius will get pregnant again. (No, I don't let them run around together. However, Remus figured out how to un-separate the cage separator when I stick her in the Feisty Ferret so I can play with the babies without stressing her...)

If anyone has information of HW/MC that they would like to share, please do. I'm no scientist so genetics is difficult for me. I want to be as informed as possible given the precarious state of my litter. I had thought neither parent brought risk, but I realize I must be wrong. Would it be safer if any high white rats were kept until 8 weeks instead of 6 to monitor for MC?



[[[Took OVER TWO HOURS to upload everything...I miss my Mac... >:|]]


----------



## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> If anyone has information of HW/MC that they would like to share, please do. I'm no scientist so genetics is difficult for me. I want to be as informed as possible given the precarious state of my litter. I had thought neither parent brought risk, but I realize I must be wrong. Would it be safer if any high white rats were kept until 8 weeks instead of 6 to monitor for MC?


5 or 6 is weeks is fine about 90% of the time. I had 3 siblings I got from the same store before I read up on the problems HWs can have - I got suspicious when one of the two girls I got never pooped - then I noticed she was also bloated all of the time. The one brother was rarely pooping. I ended up taking all 3 back because I felt like I had been had by the store - 2 of them died within a week of MC. I got them on the day they turned 4 weeks, 2 were dead before the 5th.

You should be OK. Please don't go out of your way ! I didn't mean to scare you, just that you should keep an eye out as they cross that 4 to 5 week old mark. 

They are attractive rats and that is why I will be happy to take one of the two boys I mentioned. HWs are OK just as long as they are pet-only! (never, ever breed them on purpose).


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## nanashi7

I just don't want to send a rat home to a happy new family, only to burden them with vet fees and eventual death JUST after they've got attached. 

They white, gray-masked male is the one who instigated the entire forage around the cage. He somehow made it atop one of their homes. So, if you are used to cuddly lethargic males beware - their father is hyper, and it looks like two of the males have inherited his attitude (gray mask and "scar face", the black male with the white face stripe).


----------



## nanashi7

Some of the babies coats are gonna be like dad's. Thought I'd throw a pic in to demonstrate his fluff best: http://imgur.com/a/JIr41


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## nanashi7

Eyes are opening. Or rather, one eye on each rat. I'll know about eye colors within the week and will make sure to mark that down as well as the whisker type. Many appear to have (at least on one side...) their father's black eyes.


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## nanashi7

Alright, I'm giving them nicknames so I can memorize them better - as baby 1, baby 2, I'm not able to identify one over the other unless they are particular (in which case they get awful nicknames..."batman" and "dickhead" being two...*shame*). If you have a particular baby in mind and want to pick a name, I'll use that. I was told they are so young their names won't matter to them -- if this isn't the case, let me know so I can keep babies nameless. I'm just struggling with 13 lol. Otherwise, I'll let you know their nicknames. As the parents were named Ancient Greek names, I am sticking with that.

In any case, here is day 14. The majority of the babies are have opened and they are becoming explorers now. In fact, it took me a minute to locate a wandering baby who managed to scale a blanket that I had bunched up as a wall. It does look like a few have floppy ol ears that might be dumbos (perpendicular to their head). I'm holding judgement on that. Again, these are my first rats so I'm no expert. There are a few interesting coat types -- won't label them but here is my attempt to describe them. One has a very smooth, light coat that feels a lot like a smooth royal velvet. Many of them have a "rough" looking coat -- it is very soft, but has waves or ridges throughout. Very fluffy.

I'm 80% sure they match. Again, tomorrow I will use my laptop and not this monster and try to confirm or edit any information.

Baby 1; Female, Eos - http://i.imgur.com/GQKLpfi.jpg (previously "BATMAN!")
Baby 2; Female, Peony - http://i.imgur.com/qdNyDnah.jpg
Baby 3; Male, Elias - http://i.imgur.com/4IsjbYgh.jpg (the fur!)
Baby 4; Female, Chara - http://i.imgur.com/4MtOAeQh.jpg (Note the fur)
Baby 5; Female, Circe - http://i.imgur.com/lXcoB0th.jpg (RAWR - check that claw!)
Baby 6; Female, Persephone - http://i.imgur.com/F3zgaAuh.jpg (the fur!?)
Baby 7; Male, Kairos - http://i.imgur.com/8Zjw2LZh.jpg
Baby 8; Female, Demetria - http://i.imgur.com/nrNe9mGh.jpg
Baby 9; Male, Milo - http://i.imgur.com/4zhic6qh.jpg
Baby 10; Female, Artemis - http://i.imgur.com/ECCMJYUh.jpg (If no one claims this one, I'm probably going to keep her - she is very active, curious and wouldn't leave me alone lol)
Baby 11; Female, Echo - http://i.imgur.com/q3I3FbOh.jpg
Baby 12; Male, Apollo - http://i.imgur.com/A4PHrX7h.jpg
Baby 13; Female, Athena - http://i.imgur.com/DOaCy4nh.jpg


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Alright, I'm giving them nicknames so I can memorize them better - as baby 1, baby 2, I'm not able to identify one over the other unless they are particular (in which case they get awful nicknames..."batman" and "dickhead" being two...*shame*). If you have a particular baby in mind and want to pick a name, I'll use that. I was told they are so young their names won't matter to them -- if this isn't the case, let me know so I can keep babies nameless. I'm just struggling with 13 lol. Otherwise, I'll let you know their nicknames. As the parents were named Ancient Greek names, I am sticking with that.
> 
> In any case, here is day 14. The majority of the babies are have opened and they are becoming explorers now. In fact, it took me a minute to locate a wandering baby who managed to scale a blanket that I had bunched up as a wall. It does look like a few have floppy ol ears that might be dumbos (perpendicular to their head). I'm holding judgement on that. Again, these are my first rats so I'm no expert. There are a few interesting coat types -- won't label them but here is my attempt to describe them. One has a very smooth, light coat that feels a lot like a smooth royal velvet. Many of them have a "rough" looking coat -- it is very soft, but has waves or ridges throughout. Very fluffy.
> 
> I'm 80% sure they match. Again, tomorrow I will use my laptop and not this monster and try to confirm or edit any information.
> 
> Baby 1; Female, Eos - http://i.imgur.com/GQKLpfi.jpg (previously "BATMAN!")
> Baby 2; Female, Peony - http://i.imgur.com/qdNyDnah.jpg
> Baby 3; Male, Elias - http://i.imgur.com/4IsjbYgh.jpg (the fur!)
> Baby 4; Female, Chara - http://i.imgur.com/4MtOAeQh.jpg (Note the fur)
> Baby 5; Female, Circe - http://i.imgur.com/lXcoB0th.jpg (RAWR - check that claw!)
> Baby 6; Female, Persephone - http://i.imgur.com/F3zgaAuh.jpg (the fur!?)
> Baby 7; Male, Kairos - http://i.imgur.com/8Zjw2LZh.jpg
> Baby 8; Female, Demetria - http://i.imgur.com/nrNe9mGh.jpg
> Baby 9; Male, Milo - http://i.imgur.com/4zhic6qh.jpg
> Baby 10; Female, Artemis - http://i.imgur.com/ECCMJYUh.jpg (If no one claims this one, I'm probably going to keep her - she is very active, curious and wouldn't leave me alone lol)
> Baby 11; Female, Echo - http://i.imgur.com/q3I3FbOh.jpg
> Baby 12; Male, Apollo - http://i.imgur.com/A4PHrX7h.jpg
> Baby 13; Female, Athena - http://i.imgur.com/DOaCy4nh.jpg


Apollo and Elias are the ones I like...what is Apollo's personality like?


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## nanashi7

Apollo is certainly a little less curious and active than his brethren. However, he's _just_ peeking one black eye right now so I'm hoping that's why. He's usually the first to form a cuddle pile, right on the bottom. In fact, this morning when I was handling him, he seemed frustrated to not be able to get back to the bottom lol. He even cuddles humans - he always books it across my hand to the nook of my arm to chill out (or, more so - warm up).
Tonight I'm going to let them free range a bit under Momma's supervision :]


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## PaigeRose

I am so in love with Chara, Eos, and Peony <3 theyre all such pretty babies. 

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## Nimh

I'm about 4 hours away from you. I'm really considering getting two new girls. Peony and Demetria are just darling.


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## nanashi7

Demetria is pretty shy; Peony is already a little explorer. I always find her wandering from the nest lol.


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## Nimh

Aw! Well shy rats are usually sweethearts. And another adventurous rat would be perfect for my double nation. 

How long before they can be separated from mama?


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## zurfaces

Tell me about chara circe and persephone pleeeaaseee

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## Nimh

Also can I claim Peony and Demetria? 

I think im in love. ;D


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## nanashi7

My rat calendar is on my laptop but August 19th is the 4th week, so right around then they should be weaning (by the 22nd, I planned to segregate I think...?)

Chara is the little fluff ball - I don't know if you could tell by her fur, but she is extra soft and fluffy! Persephone has the same fluffiness. I don't know what the coat is called, but it is fluff to me. She also has those massive ears, making me think she might be a dumbo (neither parent is though). She's bold mostly in a pair -- I never find her wandering alone.

Circe I think will turn out reserved. Her "claw" hand is how she usually is, holding on for cuddles. She's pretty affectionate already, usually crawling back towards me (when I put her back in the nest, she usually makes it for the door). She usually books it for the nearest hideaway to cuddle.

Persephone is pretty adventurous. She's the baby that keeps wandering off and getting lose >.>'' She climbed the inside of a bunched up blanket UPSIDE DOWN. She's also got big floppy ears. While her brothers and sisters are nursing, I usually find her being ridiculous climbing things or going in things. I have to return her to her mama - whom she doesn't listen to. She's usually the one momma most drags to the nest.

They all have black eyes.


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## nanashi7

Sure on Peony and Demetri - how're we gonna get them to you?
It's hard not to fall in love with them, especially while they are all in this cuddle-pile stage.


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## Nimh

I can drive out to you. I'll be coming from DeKalb, IL so it is about a 4 hour drive.


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## nanashi7

If we can pick a nice cool day on a weekend, I can drive some of the way -- I have no air conditioning, so I don't want to do long car rides with little babies in the heat.


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## Nimh

When the day gets closer we can figure it out! I'm very excited though. I've been wanting two new girls for awhile and I was about to go to some pet store and get some feeder rats but that is the last thing I want to do. :/

I'll inbox you my information! Thank you!


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## nanashi7

Oh, Nimh I forgot to mention: I don't know if you can tell, but Demetria is the most delicate color of silver :]


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## Nimh

Really? Oh my goodness! I'm so excited 

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## nanashi7

I'll try and get a picture of her next to her grey and white siblings to compare. This would be a close color to what I think she'll turn out to be: http://www.spoiledratten.com/_uimages/powderblueandplatinum.jpg


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## Auvreathem

Ahh! People are starting to claim the girls. When their personalities start to show more it would be awesome if you could just give a short summary. I'm looking for the 2 cuddliest girls as mine now never sit still and are very adventurous. 


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## nanashi7

Right now, top three in cuddles: Eos, Chara, Persephone.

I was waiting for them to start to free range a little more to get an idea of their personalities. As of right now, the vast majority of the babies get a cuddle pile going the moment they are out. I was told by day 20 they would have distinct personalities - right now, we are on day 15 (16 tomorrow).


Photo Dump:
http://i.imgur.com/v4OGD2Rh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YTmF8IUh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Cbgftsah.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TJz6tiGh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pRXuN1wh.jpg


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## Auvreathem

Well I'm definitely getting 2, so I'm going to call moderate dibs on Eos and Chara if that's alright. I don't want anyone to snatch them up 


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## nanashi7

Moderate dibs? lol. I'll write it down. 

I'm calling in extra help so I should have definitive eye color personality and whisker type and coat descriptions by the weekend.


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## nanashi7

I just thought I'd put this here before I fell asleep. Milo is a back sleeper XD
It wasn't funny at first, seeing him atop the rat pile just looking dead on his back, legs sprawled out. I poked his belly. Nothing. Made his leg kick. Nothing. Perplexed, I picked him up - fearing he was deceased. He flipped over and looked at me like, "What? I'm sleeping!". Put him back and...rolled right over. 
I sense a lazy lazy boy.


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## Nimh

So adorable! <3


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I just thought I'd put this here before I fell asleep. Milo is a back sleeper XD
> It wasn't funny at first, seeing him atop the rat pile just looking dead on his back, legs sprawled out. I poked his belly. Nothing. Made his leg kick. Nothing. Perplexed, I picked him up - fearing he was deceased. He flipped over and looked at me like, "What? I'm sleeping!". Put him back and...rolled right over.
> I sense a lazy lazy boy.


Yeah, I have occasionally caught adult rats sleeping like that too, and I freak out and nudge them, they flip around fast and seem to ask 'why did you do that?'


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## nanashi7

Just double checking: 4 (maybe 5) girls adopted; 1 boy?
(Leaving 4 or 5 girls, 3 boys)

Just trying to keep track (I really should be better at that...). I do have Demetria, Peony, Eos and Chara marked down (and Apollo maybe)


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## Nimh

Here is the list I have gathered so far. I didn't catch who wanted little Apollo yet though.

Baby 1; Female, Eos  (Auvreathem)
Baby 2; Female, Peony (Nimh)
Baby 3; Male, Elias 
Baby 4; Female, Chara (Auvreathem)
Baby 5; Female, Circe
Baby 6; Female, Persephone 
Baby 7; Male, Kairos 
Baby 8; Female, Demetria  (Nimh)
Baby 9; Male, Milo
Baby 10; Female, Artemis
Baby 11; Female, Echo
Baby 12; Male, Apollo  (possibly taken)
Baby 13; Female, Athena 

I would also gladly take Artemis if you decided not to keep her yourself  She is too precious for words.
But I also don't want to be a kitten hog!


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## nanashi7

Aw you didn't have to go make a list - thanks though!

If you don't mind, can we wait on Artemis? lol. I just love her -- she's such a bundle of energy, which is different from her mother (and even more than her father). However, if I have too many rats I'll certainly let her go


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## Nimh

haha of course. That is why I said if you don't end up keeping her, but you are going to have to keep a kit or two ;D


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## nanashi7

I have a feeling you'll probably end up with her cause of the number of kits.

Unfortunately for some of the ratties, they look really similar to each other and other rats. That's why I'm not always positive who is who: some have back spots, but then it turns out so does another. I usually have to stare at pictures for a while going "is that an 'L'? A triangle? a spot?". lol. I imagine those babies will be sticking around.

I'm really excited to have four girls down already.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Just double checking: 4 (maybe 5) girls adopted; 1 boy?
> (Leaving 4 or 5 girls, 3 boys)
> 
> Just trying to keep track (I really should be better at that...). I do have Demetria, Peony, Eos and Chara marked down (and Apollo maybe)


It just all depends on how Elias and Apollo end up. I'll take one boy for sure, though (though i am going to need to get a new cage soon I think - the one I am using was intended for 2 girls).

I am surpised I am the only one who has shown interest in the males? And here I thought males were always more popular.


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## nanashi7

I was surprised too. Around me, the pet stores only sell males. I had even originally intended to only have two males.

Apollo so far is doing good. He pooped on me yesterday so I'm hoping no MC (only poop I've ever been excited to have on me). Apollo seems to be a tree-dweller at heart: he has to be on the top of everything, even his baby piles. I'm thinking his eyes might be ruby though because his eyesight is really poor: caught him "suckling" at his mother's neck. I have no clue how she tolerated that. I moved him back to her underside. 
Elias is being just ridiculous. Every time free range is over he is missing. Yesterday he was the only one to explore the new toy / tunnel thing I got for them. I guess I shouldn't brag about missing babies, but I'd like to take it as a sign he'll be like his dad (hyper) since everyone else is busy napping or cuddling in the pile and he is busy getting lost.


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## Daniel

I think I am set on Apollo actually. You can put me down for him.


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## nanashi7

Alrighty :]


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## zurfaces

I'm currently contemplating males. I have one spayed female currently and she is the one that is alone. My other two are not spayed but they live seperate from my spayed female. So I was thinking I'd maybe get two boys to put in with my lone spayed female because all of mine are reaching 2-3 yrs so they'll be dropping like flies here soon. Even though this is bad I'm hoping the ratty aggressive female will go first so I can put my lone female in with her cage mate since they get along fine and then the two boys can stay together. 


Do you have any fluffy calm boys?

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## nanashi7

Milo is already extremely lazy and sweet (basing the sweetness off he is the one who seems less bothered by my bothers and hasn't nipped!). Other than that, there is Elias and Kairos. Elias as I mentioned is constantly off wandering. Kairos is an explorer as well but not as much as his brother Elias. He usually wanders then gets nervous and runs back to the cuddle pile.

Elias has the weird super smooth/soft fur.


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## zurfaces

Tentative I'd like to reserve elias and milo

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## nanashi7

Okiedokie :]


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## nanashi7

Alright, I'm trying to do some research on the coat types. It looks like double rex? is what I am calling fluffy. Chara's pic shows this. However, it could be just rex. Not really sure how to tell....

I _think_ Elias is a Satin rat. I don't know how to tell that either. I just know he is softer and more smooth than the others. If I had to describe it (prior to research) I would've said it felt a bit like satin. so *shrug*.

I don't know how genetics work (science has been my bad side). But it looks like I have some dumbo ratties. Their ears are bigger and lower set (and stick out more) than their siblings. They are: Eos, Chara, Persephone, Kairos, Artemis. I'm pretty sure Demetria and Milo as well -- however, it got very hard very quick with 13 babies wanting to explore!


The babies have started to show interest in my hands -- they come up to them to climb, sniff and sometimes nibble (Circe the most...)


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## nanashi7

Alright, I assume no one was using it anyway but I have deleted the website related to adopting out the babies. The reasoning being I really only wanted to adopt out on here but never expected to successfully find as many homes as I have. Thanks everyone :]
Luckily, eight rats is within my capability to own so I'm not so stressed at having 6 (5 if Artemis is counted as mine) left. Hopefully they'll still find their forever home.

Non-reserved babies:
Circe: grey female, white 'L' on head. Standard ear.
Persephone: black female, white on head. Dumbo. Rex coat.
Kairos: black male, white "scar" across face and various "dustings" of white throughout coat. Dumbo. 
Echo: grey female, white on head and white dote on back. Standard-ear.
Athena: black female, white on head. Standard.


Tomorrow their sexes will be confirmed (I **** well better have been right thrice running) and they will be looked at to ensure general health. I am hoping this weekend will give whisker type (my sister is bothered by Remus's excessively curly whiskers/eyebrows so I thought I would warn others).


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## Daniel

It's tempting to switch my vote to Kairos. Maybe give me a day to think about it? I'd like another dumbo (Parsley is one, Tux and the others are not).

Perhaps even a pair of brothers? Though that is stretching the room I have.


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## Daniel

Tentatively switching to Kairos. Sorry to be so indecisive, but I don't want to hog all of the boys.


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## nanashi7

Lol alright its fine.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Lol alright its fine.


Yeah maybe hold em both for now, I'll make up my mind. I might be able to take both (which would require cage shuffling). 

Fortunately, my boy Tux is turning into a greyish rat, he was blacker when I first got him, that was my main objection to the black boys.

Does Kairos have a fully white belly, or is it partial?


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## nanashi7

His belly is white, with one black spot near the side. His fur does have white/silver "spots" popping up -- not true spots, but little parts that are popping up similar to Artemis or Eos.

I'll try and get pictures of it to be precise, but momma rat either HATES the camera or desires to own it (she will pile babies on it during free range -- but, she also has started attempting to "drag" me to her nest, I forget what it is called but she makes my hand go to her nest and be groomed. Bites _hard _when denied)


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## nanashi7

Okay, I'll hold both. That means no more males available.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Okay, I'll hold both. That means no more males available.


Yeah I decided I want them both. I want to isolate the blonde runt away from his cage mate Tux anyway.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> His belly is white, with one black spot near the side. His fur does have white/silver "spots" popping up -- not true spots, but little parts that are popping up similar to Artemis or Eos.


OK, thats good, Tux has a solid 'classic' white belly with no spots. He really does look to be wearing a tuxedo.


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## nanashi7

Ah, ****. I'm getting all distracted! I meant to add: given the babies mobility and momma's obsession with me/camera, I'll probably post more group pics unless you want to request individual pics of anything.

(Kairos just made it to the top of the cage - first baby up to the roof! Immediately regretted his decision. Fell (onto another level, no worries). Off to nurse wounds with mommma.


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## nanashi7

Argh. I can't get Kairos to stand still and show his belly without blocking it with my silly fingers.
Here is what his fur doing: http://imgur.com/2naGLx4,btgO5or,v5qQRRY#2 (momma I am trying to take pictures here...)
http://imgur.com/2naGLx4,btgO5or,v5qQRRY#0 (Dag nab it Caius I need that)

My attempts at his belly: First thumb is in the way, then my bloody index. Sigh. I can't get the spot.
http://i.imgur.com/btgO5or.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lfqIzi9.jpg


Edit: I just looked back and noticed his most defining feature hasn't really been shown. Here's Kairos, a couple days ago: http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/media/101_0713_zps3b055b1e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=22


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## Daniel

I hop*e *zurfaces and I can tell ours apart! Apollo is pretty different, but Milo and Kairos are close (and are both dumbos it looks like) How is the transport part supposed to work out, BTW? 

Please send me payment details when you're ready (in a PM or whatever)..could you do Paypal? That would be the easiest way to slide you the 10 dollars.


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## nanashi7

I actually can spot Kairos due to his unique face marking. Milo is hard to tell apart from Athena, though. 

I believe Zurfaces is vacationing somewhere north of me right when they are weaning, and the route takes them past my location. I think they'll arrange some sort of meeting in Dayton at that time. I don't really know all the details yet. I've got wheels so will drive where I'm directed to, but have a pretty narrow field due to the lack of air conditioning: I am concerned about the heat and poor babies.
I think at this point we're still putting it off a bit. They won't be at the gender segregation point until the 23rd; they'll be 4 weeks on the 19th.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I actually can spot Kairos due to his unique face marking. Milo is hard to tell apart from Athena, though.
> 
> I believe Zurfaces is vacationing somewhere north of me right when they are weaning, and the route takes them past my location. I think they'll arrange some sort of meeting in Dayton at that time. I don't really know all the details yet. I've got wheels so will drive where I'm directed to, but have a pretty narrow field due to the lack of air conditioning: I am concerned about the heat and poor babies.
> I think at this point we're still putting it off a bit. They won't be at the gender segregation point until the 23rd; they'll be 4 weeks on the 19th.


Thats fine, no rush. I've heard of people who got babies that were 2-3 weeks old and although they survived without their mother at that young age they (not surprisingly) they ended up being runts.


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## nanashi7

The babies are behind ratguide's birth to weaning chart so if Zurface's vacation is later than the 19th, they'll just benefit from it. I also wouldn't mind the chance to monitor for MC.


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## zurfaces

I will be near sandusky 8/31 thru 9/7 for vacation. I will bring two baby acceptable travel cages. I will pick them up on my way home on 9/8 I'm thinking tentatively at bowling green but I haven't really put much thought into it. I'll do a health check mainly weight and breathing I'll also try to get them to have a bowel movement since everyone is concerned about mc. Then I'll pack them up in the back seat with a little food and water seperated by gender. Once I get close to dayton I will call the two people that are also getting rats and have them meet me at an agreed upon location. If the person in question lives with their parents I'm considering meeting with the parents prior to leaving for my vacation. I want to be sure the rats will not end up without a home because the parents don't agree. That way when I get back to Dayton I don't have to worry about getting turned away with babies I'm not prepared to care for. I'm sorry if this seems a bit extreme I just am looking out for the well being of the rats. I can meet parents near to their home for convenience. I'm still not sure if I'm going to do this or not but I'll know for sure in the next week or so. It would be the same thing if you were to get them from a rescue. 

To Nanashi I would like to not have to handle the money so if it's okay with you can daniel and auverathem pay you via paypal that week when I head up? Also from what I understand the weather will be more mild at that time generally in the mid 70s so they should be fine temperature wise. 


If anyone has any problems with this please let me know I'm open for discussion. 


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## nanashi7

Ah, Zurfaces you are doing all my work for me! I feel bad. For the travel cages, I'll provide food, bedding and I have some simple wood chews they'd like. I'll also start keeping spare boxes as hides. Hopefully, these things can help with their comfort level. If the weather is warmer than expected I'll freeze some water bottles if you'd like. As for where to meet, if the quickest path home doesn't lead you through BG, we can pick a location to meet at.
I'm not too concerned with money -- honestly, it might be best if you take the money to be used as a gas fee (and some sort of middle man fee), which you could collect prior to leaving if you wanted. Just put a fee so they would get a good home, but I do have a PayPal available.

As for babies being denied/returned, I would personally come down to Dayton and retrieve them. Like I said, I would rather a baby live with me than be lost in a shelter or even overcrowd others. I have the capability to keep 11 rats which translates to 9 kits, but I should hope posters on here are more reliable than CLers. As it is a haul, I would prefer anyone who thinks they might not be ready to really consider. Rats do require daily time commitment and can require vet care (so find your exotic vets).

As for MC -- we will know by the 8th, hopefully, as they will have been on solid food mainly for 3 weeks. They will be 7 weeks (minus a day) on the 8th, which should provide a guarantee. For weight, would you like me to get their weights a week prior to compare on a scale?

Anyway. If anyone wants my contact information, you can PM me. I would share it easy, but while my phone is being repaired all texts or calls are routed through my boyfriend.


----------



## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> Once I get close to dayton I will call the two people that are also getting rats and have them meet me at an agreed upon location. If the person in question lives with their parents I'm considering meeting with the parents prior to leaving for my vacation.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I actually live in Beavercreek. So a location in Dayton would work fine. (I dont want to go super far north though).

Also, I am 32 years old. No parents involved . No chance of them being rejected, I couldn't imagine doing that to anyone after an agreement.

Space isn't so much an issue for me (right now), though I think I will end up getting another Martins later this year. The 'girl cage' is an old GP cage that is a weird shape. After this, I won't be expanding the rat family unless I get two or more large cages.

Fees are no problem, just as long as its what is in the OP. Obviously update that if there are changes. I dont mind giving cash to the 'middle man' if we have to.


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## nanashi7

Oh my gosh! They all started playing! I was lying in bed for a nap and heard incessant squeaks! I couldn't figure out what Caius was doing to get them so upset, and they are like Mexican Jumping Beans! If anyone has owned a kitten, they are bouncing around like that! I was trying to find everyone's babies so I could report what they were doing but dang they are climbing and jumping and running and burrowing. I stuck my hand in so they could explore human contact. I handle them, but I thought them exploring humans would be beneficial as well for socialization.

Kairos started carrying around bedding to chew. Climbed up my arm, spotted my face and went to hide in my cupped hand.
Demetria was trying to find her mama. 
Chara my god is she precious she just wanted to find a quiet place to rest. Settled in for a nap as soon as I took her out.
Milo: http://24.media.tumblr.com/f44d9d811fa051f96b4d5afc6db2eeb9/tumblr_mlod3qXqaX1rtpfpio1_r1_400.gif that was him essentially.
Apollo came up for some cuddles but then went to wrestle (or scratch...really hard to tell whats going on!)
Eos was trying to climb and jump like mama. She came up and licked my hand a bit then wandered back off...I think to climb more.
Peony was busying eating a strawberry >.>'' When I relocated her, she followed it.
Elias seems to have his mother's love for licking fingers. Wandered back to the nest after a minute.

The others: Circe really is active and bitey. Not sure how to correct that until she's a bit older.
Persephone seemed busy trying to figure out the lab blocks and water bottle.
Artemis was adorable. She would hide in her house then come bounding out and pounce a passing kit. Then, retreat and repeat.
Echo was a sweetheart. I feel guilty naming a look-alike Echo but she is sweet. She kept trying to cuddle her siblings, but none other than Chara wanted it.
Athena was busy exploring, not playing. She managed to get into the hammock which terrified me, took her straight out. Just like the goddess, she saw me explored me noted me and moved on.


----------



## nanashi7

Oh, everyone is being all mature and here I am being ADHD. Again, the litter was never for me. Given Zurfaces trouble, it seems more worth it for them to get a transportation fee than for me to get money for effin up and ending up with babies. However, if they are uncomfortable with that, I would rather work out some sort of PayPal transfer or something (original fee. nothing more) just to serve as a guarantee that Zurface won't be wasting their time meeting up somewhere in Dayton.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Oh, everyone is being all mature and here I am being ADHD. Again, the litter was never for me. Given Zurfaces trouble, it seems more worth it for them to get a transportation fee than for me to get money for effin up and ending up with babies. However, if they are uncomfortable with that, I would rather work out some sort of PayPal transfer or something (original fee. nothing more) just to serve as a guarantee that Zurface won't be wasting their time meeting up somewhere in Dayton.


Short of me being killed in the meantime, I will be there.


----------



## Nimh

I seem to be religiously checking this thread on new updates and im never let down. These babies are pulling in my heartstrings.

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## Nimh

Also I don't know if I'll be crossing anyone's path but as long as I'm driving there from DeKalb I can take babies back if anyone of west wants one!

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## Daniel

Nimh said:


> Also I don't know if I'll be crossing anyone's path but as long as I'm driving there from DeKalb I can take babies back if anyone of west wants one!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes, it is really pleasing that the Buckeye posters here are able to take so many of them. I don't remember reading too many threads where nearly every baby from a litter was taken.

Now, we just need to get homes for the remaining girls, that is unless nanashi wants to keep more than a couple ladies.


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## nanashi7

I really was surprised. No other ad I posted got responses and I really was starting to get nervous, wondering what would happen to them if I couldn't manage it. I'm adverse to shelters and pet stores, but I thought I'd have no other option.

I still want to find a home for the few of the girls, but now I'm not too worried about what will happen if they don't find homes - I've reached a manageable amount. Ideally, I would only keep two babies but I don't mind five.

The babies are still active this morning but I think Momma is getting sick of it. She's spending more time sitting away from the nest and was not interested in sharing her chicken nugget this morning. They're getting better at grooming and falling over less, but sitting up to sniff is still a bit more than they can manage.


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## zurfaces

Oh god I'm so jealous of you lol!

As far as money goes for me just a thanks we appreciate donation would be nice.  

I may or may not be getting those two boys I'm trying to convince my fiance but he isn't too convinced. All mine are in their last year or less so it'd be nice to have two I don't have to worry about. Maximum I think I have another 6 months before I lose one maybe earlier. Maximum until they're all gone is a year unless I have one of those freaky healthy rats that live past 3 but I doubt it all of mine are feeder babies. 

Tallulah is lonely and fixed so I want baby boys.  I might just tell him to shove up his rear I'm getting me some babies. I'll let you know when I get the verdict. 

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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> Oh god I'm so jealous of you lol!
> 
> As far as money goes for me just a thanks we appreciate donation would be nice.
> 
> I may or may not be getting those two boys I'm trying to convince my fiance but he isn't too convinced. All mine are in their last year or less so it'd be nice to have two I don't have to worry about. Maximum I think I have another 6 months before I lose one maybe earlier. Maximum until they're all gone is a year unless I have one of those freaky healthy rats that live past 3 but I doubt it all of mine are feeder babies.
> 
> Tallulah is lonely and fixed so I want baby boys.  I might just tell him to shove up his rear I'm getting me some babies. I'll let you know when I get the verdict.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes, please convince him. I won't be able to take in any more for awhile so unless you have a back up I wouldn't be able to help beyond my two .


----------



## zurfaces

He seems to think I should just wait until our current ones have passed and then we can get 3 baby brothers

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## nanashi7

Aw, you should tell him you can't just get a baby and pop it into the cage to alleviate Tallulah's loneliness; she'd have to wait for quarantine and introductions.

But don't feel pressured to take my boys -- if nobody takes them, I can always get them fixed.

(Pardon any typos it looks like I've broken my right-click so I can't correct the words)


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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> He seems to think I should just wait until our current ones have passed and then we can get 3 baby brothers
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Hm, would the transporting then be too out of the way for you?


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## nanashi7

Well, Zurfaces will still be going on vacation so it shouldn't be a problem. I hope.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Well, Zurfaces will still be going on vacation so it shouldn't be a problem. I hope.


Yes, if not, we will have to figure something out. I have an idea of what, if you're willing to drive close to Dayton (and I could hold the girls for the poster coming from IL) but hopefully it won't come to that.


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## nanashi7

I probably wouldn't want to go past Lima -- I'm really worried about the heat and the rats. The last two years September has been really hot (at least in BG). I'm sure Zurfaces can still do it -- before they were taking males, they were just running a train I think.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I probably wouldn't want to go past Lima -- I'm really worried about the heat and the rats. The last two years September has been really hot (at least in BG). I'm sure Zurfaces can still do it -- before they were taking males, they were just running a train I think.


Understood. My first rat I bought when I got back into them this year died of heat during the way back home (abt 30 min drive) - I opened the box, and he was dead. 

I don't think there will be issues with the transport on her part though.


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## Nimh

I don't think the babies should go for a ride in a uncooled car unless it's extremely nice out. You aren't supposed to leave your rats in an uncooled car for more than 5 minutes. The inside of a car in the sun can get hot enough to cause heat stroke in 5 minutes, death in less than 10, even with the windows cracked on a cool day.


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## nanashi7

Yeah, that's my concern. Can't even roll the windows down because it would stress them.

I've done 30 minute trips to the vet but as soon as I get there I always take them out wet their fur and let them lay on cool tile or the table. I can't exactly cool them down after a long trip.
I usually freeze a bottle of water and two plates to cool them down.


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## zurfaces

The windows down should stress them too much as long as they're in the cage with snugglies. Trust me I travel with my rats often and my jerk fiance always blares heavy metal when he is driving and they just snooze like ain't no big thang. 

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## zurfaces

I'm definitely still going on vacation lol I've had this planned since spring and nothing is stopping me lol

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## nanashi7

I'm always super paranoid when transporting animals. I don't do music or windows (unless it's my dog). I even drive like I'm trying to pass the driver's test. lol.
And I figured you'd still be running the train with or without your two -- though we can certainly "accidentally" pack them in for you XD


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## zurfaces

I think if he still hasn't agreed and I'll unreserve them and you can bring those with you if you still have them who can say no to a cute little fluff ball!? Didn't you say one of my boys was licky? That'll win him over I'm sure

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## nanashi7

Very licky. Lol. We'll talk plans closer to the date, here's hoping he let's you get them lol.


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## Daniel

nanashi, could you get a pick of momma feeding them all? One of the cutest rat moments I have seen is when the babies with their opened eyes are feeding. In their pup stage, rats are probably the cutest IMO.


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## nanashi7

I took one two days ago, actually. She looks rather...angry? when feeding. I think it might be the teeth. http://imgur.com/bCBBDx5

I'll try and get another picture (one where you can see the pups), but she's a rather bad mom: while feeding, she'll walk off if I bother her and come to the cage door, leaving a trail of whining writhing little pups.


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## nanashi7

Free ranged a couple minutes ago. Have to get new batteries! Camera kept dying. The babies started trying to nurse, so I decided to call it quits, put them in the cage and hope mom settles down and nurses. So far, no dice. I did manage to take some photos though, of the free ranging.
I just purchased this ferret tunnel thing (http://www.ferret.com/item/marshall-connect-n-play-set/650297/ ) so it was quite difficult to get a picture of all of them. I apologize for that. I also want to be handling them so they are socialized which is nigh impossible when I am wielding a camera. They were fairly curious on a whole, though Milo and Kairos disappeared to take a nap under the blanket :|
Apollo kept hiding in my skirts (sorry for the thigh shots!). 
It's hard to keep track of who is who especially in the greys and blacks, so I'll do my best to identify who is who but the kits and I are off to the vet soon so accuracy may be down. Edit: yeah, it's like impossible to tell who is who with some of these shots and while being in a hurry. I'll try and get profile shots as soon as I can, my boyfriend should be coming over to help Monday.

Photo Dump!
http://i.imgur.com/O56rINVh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JMnFX0Th.jpg Chara and Demetria
http://i.imgur.com/v7dDWAvh.jpg Apollo on the right
http://i.imgur.com/V4ylALV.jpg Chara
http://i.imgur.com/JnenszKh.jpg Peony
http://i.imgur.com/1GN6Cb8h.jpg Demetria and Eos? cuddle.
http://i.imgur.com/WsYi8Bih.jpg Echo
http://i.imgur.com/7atCJYHh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jIrvRG7h.jpg Kairos on right
http://i.imgur.com/Dh5F3gLh.jpg Artemis 
http://i.imgur.com/qGU6h97h.jpg Agh I don't know who this is
http://i.imgur.com/tCNltgQh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SYxHNFQh.jpg Peony
http://i.imgur.com/7dAf2Y8h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VkrnnpKh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b8At9n8h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bOVNGfJh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oKNUBW4h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aVLD9Ubh.jpg Eos looking for her cuddle pile.
http://i.imgur.com/2KNzRIah.jpg Apollo
http://i.imgur.com/0DxMK00h.jpg Apollo
http://i.imgur.com/ZipcAODh.jpg Artemis


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## zurfaces

They're so cute right now! I love them every single one. 

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## Daniel

I take it at this point they are experimenting with alot of solids and the water bottle?

I've never bred rats, but with Syrian hamsters, I would sometimes see the babies already trying the water bottle while they were still blind (maybe a day or two before their eyes opened)


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Free ranged a couple minutes ago. Have to get new batteries! Camera kept dying. The babies started trying to nurse, so I decided to call it quits, put them in the cage and hope mom settles down and nurses. So far, no dice. I did manage to take some photos though, of the free ranging.
> I just purchased this ferret tunnel thing (http://www.ferret.com/item/marshall-connect-n-play-set/650297/ ) so it was quite difficult to get a picture of all of them. I apologize for that. I also want to be handling them so they are socialized which is nigh impossible when I am wielding a camera. They were fairly curious on a whole, though Milo and Kairos disappeared to take a nap under the blanket :|
> Apollo kept hiding in my skirts (sorry for the thigh shots!).
> It's hard to keep track of who is who especially in the greys and blacks, so I'll do my best to identify who is who but the kits and I are off to the vet soon so accuracy may be down. Edit: yeah, it's like impossible to tell who is who with some of these shots and while being in a hurry. I'll try and get profile shots as soon as I can, my boyfriend should be coming over to help Monday.
> 
> Photo Dump!
> http://i.imgur.com/O56rINVh.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/JMnFX0Th.jpg Chara and Demetria
> http://i.imgur.com/v7dDWAvh.jpg Apollo on the right
> http://i.imgur.com/V4ylALV.jpg Chara
> http://i.imgur.com/JnenszKh.jpg Peony
> http://i.imgur.com/1GN6Cb8h.jpg Demetria and Eos? cuddle.
> http://i.imgur.com/WsYi8Bih.jpg Echo
> http://i.imgur.com/7atCJYHh.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/jIrvRG7h.jpg Kairos on right
> http://i.imgur.com/Dh5F3gLh.jpg Artemis
> http://i.imgur.com/qGU6h97h.jpg Agh I don't know who this is
> http://i.imgur.com/tCNltgQh.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/SYxHNFQh.jpg Peony
> http://i.imgur.com/7dAf2Y8h.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/VkrnnpKh.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/b8At9n8h.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/bOVNGfJh.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/oKNUBW4h.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/aVLD9Ubh.jpg Eos looking for her cuddle pile.
> http://i.imgur.com/2KNzRIah.jpg Apollo
> http://i.imgur.com/0DxMK00h.jpg Apollo
> http://i.imgur.com/ZipcAODh.jpg Artemis


Dumbos are especially pretty, but they all look good.


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## Nimh

Oh my, these babies are just darling. And that tunnel is awesome! I may have to get one like it!

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## nanashi7

I like it, if you have multiple rats it's fun to watch them chase. I would wait to get it though since right now its almost $40; I got it for $30.

Peony and Eos keep stealing nibbles of mama's veggies but for the most part none have tried the food (they smell it a lot though). I am going to create some baby mush (eggs, baby cereal, puppy's milk, and a few lab blocks) for the next free range to try and encourage the hard food. I lowered the water bottle so they could reach it, but most have investigated it but not used it. I am going to use a spare water bowl I have for my birds to try and offer water as well (it's running through the dish washer right now, has to go through twice more before I'll call it clean).

I just got back from the vet, everyone. Babies were health-checked and the genders were confirmed. The only baby who she couldn't confirm was Artemis (thought she felt testicles, but the spacing look in between a girl and a boy) -- otherwise, each was spot on :] I forgot to get a guarantee, but I do have a copy of the bill I can provide. The vet agreed that the babies appear to be behind developmentally, which she attributes to Caius's age, their number, and that it is her first litter.


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## nanashi7

Caius and Remus were successfully reunited. He is sterile now. You wouldn't have even thought they've been separated, given the amount of cares they showed. In fact, I was worried that they didn't see each other at first. Nope, just didn't care. They are, however, bruxing and boggling like crazy. I'd like to think that despite not really hanging out, they still are hhappy to have same-age friends.

Later next week I'll try to get Daddy to meet some of the boys. From personal experience, my rats didn't know a bunch when I got them and I honestly think it is due to them being in an uninteresting environment and having no one show them how to use things. I thought since Remus is neutered and I may or may not have baby boys, I would keep Remus and sons in one cage and Momma and babies in the other. It was recommended waiting until the babies hit 6-8 weeks, but I really can't go fetch _another_ cage, nor keep anyone in a bin cage for that long. I think I know Remus well enough as well to gauge his probable response, and he just isn't aggressive: pre-neuter or post. Never has been, even with my nieces. I've also been watching another member's post, Finnebon, who has introduced her males to her litter. However - If anyone objects, let me know. (They will be 3 weeks on Monday.)

(If any typos, sorry. Two rats runny all over)


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## nanashi7

This is probably the lamest confession but I am off to watch the TMNT movie on Nick. lol.
I got some snapshots of Momma and of Kairos' belly. The babies are starting to get flecks of white throughout. Dunno what that means, but I just thought I'd share. I WILL get individual pics of one side, face, and belly ASAP. I'm not handy, so it will be three separate pics. Not really sure how I would compile them in one image on this ancient monster.

****, I hit send w/o pics
http://i.imgur.com/AS4tudi.jpg Momma feeding babies. She immediately climbed up in her hammock (some babies attached http://i.imgur.com/MowVrTN.jpg) in an effort to come out (I make them come as close to eye-level as possible before retrieving them). As you might be able to tell, they close their eyes when nursing. It's hard to get good pics when all 12 nipples are occupied, and one baby is fighting to get one.

Kairos' belly: http://i.imgur.com/yTrBDAT.jpg
The flash is awful and I can't correct it on this laptop. You should be able to see a spot on the right side (his left) and some coloring extending down on the left (his right).


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## Auvreathem

I just want to hold them all... Oh my god so cuuuuuuute
Peony's markings are beautiful 


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## nanashi7

The babies have figured out running ._.
Peony seems to be the most outgoing rat so far. She keeps stealing mama's fruit -- had to wipe the blueberry off her fur. Not sure if she is eating, but if she is she seems to be clear for MC.

Tonight, ratties got a treat bowl of blueberries, corn, apple, strawberry, and carrot. Not much a proper rat salad but big hit with mine. Babies showed some interest. 

(I will admit to enjoying sticking my hand in the nest for squirmy furry cuddles...they do bite hard/)


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## Nimh

Doesn't she though? 
I'm already spamming my Instagram with their photos. 
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## Daniel

Kairos is actually looking like he will turn out ALOT lighter than Tux, so that shoulldn't be an issue of ID problems. Funny that I now noticed that he is getting two spots on each side of his belly - something that wasn't there when I got him (he is about 6 week now, I got him at 4 1/2).


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> This is probably the lamest confession but I am off to watch the TMNT movie on Nick. lol.


O/T but I saw the first TMNT movie in the theatres in 1990 as a 9 year old kid, lol.


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## nanashi7

Chara has become quite the darling. She is like a cotton ball. Unfortunately, she is rather tiny and seems to be missing out on some feedings. Instead, she likes to come cuddle me  Very friendly. Figured out if she steps up, I give her elevator rides.

http://imgur.com/6pkh5ec,rlwqmCe,KDiRUlw,7RXmw4H
http://imgur.com/6pkh5ec,rlwqmCe,KDiRUlw,7RXmw4H#1
http://imgur.com/6pkh5ec,rlwqmCe,KDiRUlw,7RXmw4H#2
http://imgur.com/6pkh5ec,rlwqmCe,KDiRUlw,7RXmw4H#3 Eos used the water bottle!


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## nanashi7

Some of the babies appear to have porphyrin around their nasal openings. None show signs of any respiratory problems (sneezing or breathing hard). I am going to scrub down their cage tonight and see if is that. It may also be stress as I've been asking others to handle them more, so as to get them used to many hands. 

They are still about the size of my thumb. They are 18 days old and should be the length of my palm.

:[


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Some of the babies appear to have porphyrin around their nasal openings. None show signs of any respiratory problems (sneezing or breathing hard). I am going to scrub down their cage tonight and see if is that. It may also be stress as I've been asking others to handle them more, so as to get them used to many hands.
> 
> They are still about the size of my thumb. They are 18 days old and should be the length of my palm.
> 
> :[


Didn't you say you just moved them to a regular cage? (pics seem to show that) I have noticed that when I change a rat to a new bedding (ie when I get a new rat and the store or wherever used something else), their noses are irritated for a few days and they sneeze or have redness a bunch. Tux was sneezy for nearly a week, but he was never actually sick and is 100% fine and healthy now.


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## nanashi7

I moved them to the guinea cage on July 31st after mama's great heist. The bedding is the same type as what was in their mama cage (care fresh ultra).


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I moved them to the guinea cage on July 31st after mama's great heist. The bedding is the same type as what was in their mama cage (care fresh ultra).


Maybe it is stress then. When rodent babies start to get bigger, the crowding starts to bother them a bit (not that you're cramming them, you're not, but they have to share the cage with over 10 other rats). Be glad that rats don't have problems with wet tail like hamsters do! I lost several over the years to that, even when I thought they had more than enough space.


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## nanashi7

I'll try and see who exactly has porphyrin. It just made me nervous because neither Remus nor Caius ever had it and they don't have particularly sensitive noses to dust.
I thought it might be stress, especially with the vet visit yesterday. If the intro goes well with papa, I wanted to transition them into the Feisty Ferret - can house 7/8 adults.


----------



## zurfaces

What arebyou feeding mom? 

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## nanashi7

Mom is on Oxbow Regal Rat, she gets kibble/eggs/veggie chicken nugget for protein (usually eggs or kibble) and then every other day treats of veggies -- apple (no core), watermelon (no seed), blueberries, strawberries, carrots. Not in a huge quantity since I don't want the nutrition to go off balance with the oxbow.


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## Auvreathem

nanashi7 said:


> I'll try and see who exactly has porphyrin. It just made me nervous because neither Remus nor Caius ever had it and they don't have particularly sensitive noses to dust.
> I thought it might be stress, especially with the vet visit yesterday. If the intro goes well with papa, I wanted to transition them into the Feisty Ferret - can house 7/8 adults.


Tell us how that goes. I have a cage very similar to that but I have one younger rat that slips through the bars with ease.


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## nanashi7

I actually modified it with hardware mesh, covering the outside and adding two levels. I'm headed home soon and will examine all closely. :]


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## nanashi7

Okay, so it is like impossible to check the babies right now. Artemis is bounding around. Apollo is trying to nurse. Milo has figured out how to get into the hammock. One of the fluffy silver girls keeps climbing on my hand.
However, I did manage to get the two babies whom I had originally spotted porphyrin on (Echo and Circe I believe) and the porphyrin neither increased nor was it fresh. It is the slightest of dabs to the left of their nose. I will worry more post-cage clean. Right now some crazy things are going on so the cage will have to be cleaned tomorrow morning. However, the babies remain active, nursing, and none seem sneezy or wheezy.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Apollo is trying to nurse.


Does he normally have trouble pushing his way in for a free nipple? Tux would be used to having a somewhat undersized cage mate (he is alone at the moment - Apollo and Kairos will be housed with him) - little blondie is still living, but so sickly I have to keep him in a third cage for now as Tux is aggressive with food sometimes.


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## nanashi7

It's usually Chara or Demetria who are left out, as they are the tiniest.
Apollo usually is the first to latch onto a nipple and the last to let go, but he still isn't the biggest of the bunch.


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## Nimh

They sound like a lively bunch. They must be a hoot to watch!


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## nanashi7

Yes. Unfortunately, they seem to wear out under 20 minutes and have to be put back in the cage. I leave a towel out and when 80% of rats have burrowed in for naps then I call it quits.

They are already very interested in the big ol' giant (me) and will come out to sniff me (or lick - Kairos - or bite -Circe-). I'm looking forward to tomorrow which is the start of my vacation so I can play with them multiple times a day.


----------



## nanashi7

Today I went to an animal shelter so am refraining from handling or approaching the babies for a while. However, they are active and definitely want to know what mama is eating. Not sure if they've figured out the water bottle but they like to chew on it. They also are tearing apart their house. If intros with dad go well I will be putting them in a FF with more play toys to promote movement.


----------



## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> They are already very interested in the big ol' giant (me) and will come out to sniff me (*or lick - Kairos *- or bite -Circe-). I'm looking forward to tomorrow which is the start of my vacation so I can play with them multiple times a day.


Kissy boys are my favorite! Parsley is like that, it would be nice to have another one. 

Really looking forward to meeting them.


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## nanashi7

I wish you guys were closer so you guys could play with them while they are essentially writhing fluff balls. 

The babies have crammed themselves into a tunnel not much bigger than a toilet paper roll. Ten of them.

Apollo and Chara have to be the sweetest so far, for no other reason than they come up to be pet. Kairos would be in their numbers if he would wake up -- when I find him outside the cuddle pile, he is willing to see if I have anything cool.
Demetria seems to be the smallest by far.
Eos seems to be the most outgoing female.
Peony seems to be a bit of a chunker -- she is the one who eats the most. She's also an explorer, usually far from the pack.
Elias is usually sleeping with Milo, but will wake up and come investigate me if I bother everyone a bunch.

I'm hoping that today they'll wake up for free range and s_tay _​awake for a bit to wander around.


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## nanashi7

We've got upside down baby rats climbing on the cage ceiling lmao


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## Daniel

My favorite pic - Apollo is a cute little bugger. And those dumbo ears on a baby rat.


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## nanashi7

I love dumbo ears. And on the babies they literally are earning their name "dumbo".

Everyone is free ranging right now: mom, dad, 13 babies. Daddy doesn't care about them. I've got a massive cuddly pile of rats crawling in my pants and up my pjs and I must say it is one of the best feelings ever (except for the up my pjs...could do without that.)


----------



## nanashi7

Oh my god I could never be a breeder. This is ridiculous. I can hardly breathe without running into a rat or five. I'm not really sure how to socialize little bundles of energy so if anyone has tips I'd love to hear them. Right now, I let them run around and handle them occasionally. I also let them climb over me.
Ah momma is trying to use my fluffy pjs as nesting material **** this is crazy not my best well thought out ideas before. Remus is overwhelmed keeps sitting on my shoulder as if he too is rethinking his life's mistakes.

Kairos now has three white splotches on his back.
Apollo is very cuddle driven and my pants are now rolled up into shorts because he wont stop.

Demetria is obsessed with Remus.
Milo somehow managed to get on my shoulder without me noticing.
Peony is huge.
Elias makes me think of a gerbil running to and fro. He does like to nibble fingers.
Chara seems very reserved, and is startled easily by movement. She is not adverse to being touched, but she is very shy.
Eos won't stop climbing on me and her mom and the playpen and just about everything. She still is sweet with handling but she definitely is energetic she is now on the keyboard not really sure how she got up here but she seems to have taught eight siblings. She has no fear and just stood on my typing hand. 
Circe is trying to figure out how to get back in the transport bin that I use to get 13 rats out of the cage and into the play area
Persephone is hooked to Athena's hip. 
Echo is a lot like her name she isn't exploring at all. Very sweet and sleepy.

I tried to focus most on everyone's babies -- they also are the easiest to distinguish apart.


Ah remus just broke my enter key ****. The babies are more or less pooping on their own i am taking that as an optimistic sign

Sorry if this is rambly I'm trying to get everything I observe down


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## nanashi7

Free ranged again this morning. They are getting bolder every day. Personally, they are always shocking me getting onto new levels and in hammocks. I really have to look into putting them in the big cage, they always seem to be stepping on each other's toes.

Anyway. For the free range less were insistent on cuddling and more were willing to explore. Eos managed to scale a vertical oil painting that was acting as the barrier. Others were already clambering up to get to my shoulder. A few were catching on the I was trying to pet them, and Elias seemed especially receptive to it. Apollo figured out that if he stood on my hand I would elevator him up into my lap or down into the floor.

They are very mouthy already, gracing my with little booboos as proof of their adventures on my hand.


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## nanashi7

Some babies took treats from my hand. And, not every baby is crowding poor mama for milk. I wonder if this is the beginning of weaning? We are only in week three (tomorrow is day 21, last day of week 3)

Did you know they were able to brux at a young age? I didn't. I kept looking for the parents to see what was amusing them so greatly but it was little Echo. Haha I loved it.


----------



## zurfaces

That truly sounds like a handful lol I like how you can tell all of their little personalities

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## Nimh

"Peony is huge."

This had me cracking up.

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## nanashi7

She is the biggest of the bunch and she seems to know it. I will try and take another video when they play again but she uses her size to get what she wants and to act like a big rat. She keeps teaming up with Remus. They managed to pop open the bathroom door and run a great escape. No other baby was interested in it.


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## nanashi7

Alright, here is my solo attempt at face/side shots. Their coats are growing in very interestingly, but for the most part the markings remain the same. Almost all babies have stolen food from mama and are interested in the water bottle, if not sure how to work it. Remus is free-ranging solo right now and seems at a loss where all the mischief went. I swear he is the happiest little thing out there. He will brux when I open the cage door even if I'm not there for free range. He is so adorable. He likes to grab my fingers when I am petting him in the cage when I try to pull away to let me know he isn't done. I swear, if he's like this when classes start back up I'll never be able to leave home.

Anyway. Misc. picture: 
http://i.imgur.com/LRpL9B3h.jpg the rattie pile. No clue why it is so red, but this is how the babies insist on sleeping...

In no particular order, the babies:

Chara:
http://i.imgur.com/hB8syMch.jpg http://i.imgur.com/voa4Elnh.jpg
She is being called the fluffy one by everyone else because of her ridiculous fluffiness. When people come to see my babies, they ask to see the fluffy one.

Elias:
http://i.imgur.com/FidnMAuh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/9YQNqvGh.jpg

Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/KNeDr0Yh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/lYS7TJeh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/9JVaJ8Yh.jpg
White shirt + pics of Apollo = not the brightest of ideas.

Peony: http://i.imgur.com/ViZpMe0h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aFGRxKEh.jpg

Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/Umaw83Th.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YUfj5VCh.jpg 

Echo: http://i.imgur.com/CgmJmIth.jpg http://i.imgur.com/lmIhCjRh.jpg
The come-from-behind fluff ball!

Eos: http://i.imgur.com/aZS6aO9h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/fIzg4rCh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jnp9xT4h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UQ9nltAh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/KKkSXbvh.jpg
Eos can you please stand still no don't go that way **** it stop wait come here fine I'll take your picture in the cage <- The conversation during photo shoot.

Kairos won't let me get a proper pic of his face. I swear he still has the "scar" across it. http://i.imgur.com/WlEwhbnh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qBSru04h.jpg

Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/6ZElgCFh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MSKR4eLh.jpg

Circe: http://i.imgur.com/zYKJyeXh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/IymDMSMh.jpg

Milo: http://i.imgur.com/RyyWkWLh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UhWJDFLh.jpg

Persephone: http://i.imgur.com/e1wLsYmh.jpg Somehow I didn't manage a face picture. She is twinsies with Milo, though.

Athena: http://i.imgur.com/AEPL5tTh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GiHl2HQh.jpg


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## nanashi7

Got Kairos's face. Any other pic requests let me know.
http://imgur.com/bCP5ELT


----------



## Auvreathem

Eos and Chara are so adorable. I can't wait until I can add them to my rat family! 


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## nanashi7

The rats have figured out hanging toys and quite love the sound of bells. I have this little bird toy with sea shells that they grab the strings on and tug.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> The rats have figured out hanging toys and quite love the sound of bells. I have this little bird toy with sea shells that they grab the strings on and tug.


Yes, I meant to ask that too. If you happen to notice a certain one of the rattie boys likes a particular toy, that would be good to know. Right now the cage they will be put in is boring and I'd like to spruce it up with toys they already like. I have struck out with the toys I've tried for Tux, so I don't want to waste money with something Apollo/Kairos won't go for.


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## nanashi7

Well, Kairos is in love with the toy. It's a bird toy, I think Calypso creations but it might be by Pervue. They also have this loofa/pinecone toy that they seem to like, but not terribly. The snakshak house I got seems to be a favorite, and of course hammocks. I'll be moving them into the big cage with a lot more stuff coming up soon. It has more space and should be more fun for them. Plus, Remus looked a bit lost in his lone free range today as if wondering where all the babies went. If rats have favorite kids, I'm going to vote Chara is his. Here's some pics to cheer you up (bad news below):
http://i.imgur.com/qNNBKtbh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VN7H2CCh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLTa9wSh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/9VubJxLh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MbvP1jmh.jpg (Daddy rat showing Chara the ropes)
http://i.imgur.com/LYhvT6Nh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TA0pGeIh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/yQFe6jEh.jpg


Since you guys are adopting the babies I wanted to let you know about a few things going on.

Firstly, bad news. I think I mentioned it on here but momma rat broke into Remus's cage two weeks back (maybe more, maybe less). I hoped beyond hope that I caught her soon enough, as I heard squeaking and turned to see her on her back and immediately removed her. Rats don't do it missionary, so I prayed we were clear and waited for Remus to be neutered before even allowing her to free range around my room where she could get into his cage again. Unfortunately, she is beginning to look fat. I am going to call the vet Monday to schedule an emergency spay. I can only hope that it is before it is too late and that everything works out fine with momma. If the unthinkable occurs, clearly they will be forcibly weaned slightly before the fourth week. I apologize for this, sincerely to everyone involved most especially my rats. I never wished any of this to occur and lament that this is my first step in rat ownership. They are my babies and I want to do everything I can to keep them, and unfortunately that means mama has to be spayed if she is pregnant to avoid another litter. I love little fuzzies but I cannot have more babies on top of these babies. If I could explain the sorrow I am feeling over this in better terms, I would. Here is how momma looks, if anyone thinks she is just chubby I could really use the encouragement but I'm unfortunately a realist (I *swear* I'm not hurting her, she twisted and squirmed out just as the camera took the photo): http://imgur.com/aej8Pmp


Finally, a tiny ray of sunshine. I am coordinating efforts to rescue 9 rats in need. They will be in my care for about a week before being passed along to a better place. You may have seen the rant I posted. They will be kept separate from the babies and I will do my best to follow all quarantine processes. However, I can clear them for URIs as they've been at the shelter for about a month now and all show no symptoms -- I also asked them about their rats and sicknesses, and they confirmed none were sick they were born in the. I'm still wary about SDA? I think it was, as they are housed above the rabbits. If anyone has any advice on how to proceed I would appreciate it. These poor babies are clearly in need and I have a moral obligation to aid them I feel. I apologize for this as well, but really if you know what a parakeet starter cage looks like the boys are kept in that (NO modifications for levels) and the 4 girls are in a 10-gal aquarium -- all being fed rabbit pellets. I will do my best to ensure health by taking them to a vet before going home. I know the change clothes/shower and to keep as many doors shut between them as possible and will follow those guidelines. They are going to be kept downstairs, where three doors will separate them from the babies. Any more tips I will promise, as it is just as important that I do not expose your rat babies to danger just as it is that I do not let these animals die alone in a shelter unloved. I did not realize the first bit of news until I had already arranged this.

Sorry for all the inconvenience and I hope none of you are upset by this news. I hope this does not affect the babies as well. I again send my condolences your way and apologize that I was not able to prevent the mess with Caius getting in the cage. I checked her and thought she didn't appear in heat or have a mucus plug...
I also apologize for the rescue I am coordinating. I hope you guys understand and are not bothered by it. I am looking into keeping them at a friend's house for that week, but I do not know if that is possible at this point in time. Please please feel free to voice any and all concerns and I will take them all to heart. If need be, I can arrange for the babies to stay with my grandmother but that is extreme-case scenario.


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## Nimh

I'm sorry about mama ratty! Two back to back births wouldn't be the best idea. You are doing the right thing.

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## nanashi7

I don't intend to wean them early, only if she passes in surgery. They need mama as long as possible.

I will ask about the foster rats being moved to my friend's house, he will understand. The last resort was the babies being moved -- I prefer them here with me, because they are played with all the time.

This is why I am asking you guys, to gauge what is best for everyone.

However, if you are still uncomfortable I can understand if you want to retrieve them early. However, the surgery would be scheduled later this week and I feel it is best for them to be nursed as long as possible. They are just beginning to sample food but you are welcome to decisions on your rats.


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## nanashi7

Friend understood. Will home rats for me until they are retrieved and rehomed.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I don't intend to wean them early, only if she passes in surgery. They need mama as long as possible.
> 
> I will ask about the foster rats being moved to my friend's house, he will understand. The last resort was the babies being moved -- I prefer them here with me, because they are played with all the time.
> 
> This is why I am asking you guys, to gauge what is best for everyone.


Well, if the 'rat abortion' works out, it may not come to that. I say cross that bridge once we get there. Is big momma being protective of her stomach? 

I saw your rescue thread. I really wish I could help with adults (I actually am a little interested in a PEW, since I NEVER see them being sold live here - even in the feeder bin), but I will be bursting at the seams with the 2 new boys.

Spaying is a good idea for ALL female rats anyway. I have become an advocate for them all to have it done, since they have so many health problems if you don't.


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## nanashi7

She isn't, but I'm not sure there is much I could do to Caius that she would get mad about. She is very docile and reserved and loves me with all of her heart. I want to hold out that she is still just fat, but a rat abortion is what I'm preparing for. The vet successfully managed Remus and is rat-experienced, so I pray that she comes through if she must be spayed.

I just thought it was only fair that everyone be aware of all ratty situations.


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## Daniel

Hm, is it just me or is Apollo all of sudden not looking Dumbo-ish in those newest pics? Just wondering if I am seeing things.

It's fine if he isn't of course, but that earlier pic I posted a favorite he looked like he was.


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## nanashi7

I'm glad someone else spotted that. I thought I was going crazy. Many of the babies ears seem to be migrating upward, but the ratguide said that by like day 14 you knew what their ears were. They were certainly perpendicular to their head...and now they are going north. They aren't on the top of their head like the other babies, but they are starting to look less dumbo...


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I'm glad someone else spotted that. I thought I was going crazy. Many of the babies ears seem to be migrating upward, but the ratguide said that by like day 14 you knew what their ears were. They were certainly perpendicular to their head...and now they are going north. They aren't on the top of their head like the other babies, but they are starting to look less dumbo...


Does Kairos still look Dumbo? I admit I would be disappointed if both of their ears migrated upwards.

And BTW, there is no need to apologize to us. The only thing I would be upset with is if you were purposely breeding high whites, which I know you didn't.


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## nanashi7

Kairos still has big ol side ears, just checked.

The whole HW thing makes me wonder if the "breeder" I got my two from is doing just that.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Kairos still has big ol side ears, just checked.
> 
> The whole HW thing makes me wonder if the "breeder" I got my two from is doing just that.


I am very curious now what breeder you went to. I wonder if it was the same one I talked to. There was a breeder I spoke to north of Columbus, and while well-intentioned, was breeding the 'pretty' H-Ws thinking she could 'breed out' the genetic pre-disposition to MC in them (but so far the evidence seems to be against the possibility).


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## nanashi7

The breeder I spoke to was located in Lambertville. I chose her because the PetSmart always only had one rat available at a time. She just put up a website...http://957345177713892058.weebly.com/index.html


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## nanashi7

I honestly don't know who could breed HW on purpose. When someone said they were at risk my heart dropped. It is so hard to pet, cuddle, and play with these little cotton balls and know in the back of my mind once they start eating they may be at the end of their life.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> The breeder I spoke to was located in Lambertville. I chose her because the PetSmart always only had one rat available at a time. She just put up a website...http://957345177713892058.weebly.com/index.html


Yikes. OK, no, not the same lady. There is a breeder who has ads on craigs list (selling as both feeders and pets) that has some knowledge about the problem of MC. 

This breeder, on the other hand, seems to have almost nothing but H-Ws! I see about 4 rats in the pictures that are not H-Ws, and it wouldn't surprised me if they had at least one H-W parent. 'Cool patterns', haha.

Isn't this also a 'breeder' who miss-sexed her rats to begin with? Rats are ridiculously easy to sex after about 2 weeks, if not sooner.


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## nanashi7

This woman also sells feeders. Saw her snake on the way out (she covered the cage).
I don't mind people owning snakes and feeding them F/T rodents, but don't sell that to me as a pet and pretend you don't do feeders. I honestly considered owning a snake, but couldn't do it. A legit breeder should've been upfront about everything concerning the rats. That's how I am modelling my rehoming efforts.

Yes. This woman was the result of the mess I'm in now. Because of the conditions, I couldn't bring myself to contact her for returns or with the babies. I sexed the babies accurately and shelled out $40 to double-check with a vet. I imagine at 4.5 weeks when it becomes critical it will be super apparent.


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## nanashi7

Just thought I'd share this. Heard an outrageous amount of squeaking, but could see mama and knew it wasn't her nursing. I walked over to find little Milo chewing on poor Apollo's tail. Admittedly, he shouldn't have been sitting in the food bowl and sending mixed messages. He didn't even fight it. I just came over looked at it, and separated Milo. Apollo cheered up and is playing with that seashell toy. I can't wait to put them in the big cage where it will be more fun.


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## Daniel

Yeah there are some other red flags there - she ships live rats? I have a feeling it is actually rats she CO2s herself. 

The breeder I spoke to did not seem to be a snake owner, but she was up front that she sold for both. She preferred to sell for pets, though, since she had been trying to breed in certain patterns. 

I decided I cannot do any animal that requires being fed rodents. Even though mice are dumb, I couldn't bring myself to feed even them to a snake or lizard. Rats would be absolutely impossible for me. I would want to keep every one. I have a couple of fire belly toads, but I don't get too worked up about feeding crickets to them.


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## nanashi7

Yeah, I can't do any kind of live feeding even crickets. I sat around trying to philosophically divide the line in life forms and couldn't. So I can't feed lizards crickets. I feel bad because mealworms would make wonderful treats for my rats and my birds I hear but I can't even by a packet of dried mealworms. lol.
I could never sell my rats for pets. Or just about anything I could interact with. The minute my sweethearts opened up for me, I became attached and these little furballs look so much like mice I'm pretty certain someone could drop a fancy mouse in the litter and the only way I'd notice would be in headcounts.

My rats turned out wonderful so I try to stay positive and call it a happy mistake (one that has been about as costly as my elderly runt dog).


----------



## nanashi7

The babies now get the water bottle and are sampling lab blocks. They are quite adept at balancing with only minimal tumbles. They have this wood perch in their cage that they like to climb up on and balance on. I will add that they seem to love papaya gummies (originally meant for parakeets). They aren't getting enough to worry about d-limonene, and I read that it will help with upset tummies. I'm extremely fearful of MC but so far it looks like they are all healthy and growing. None seem to be failing to thrive and none are swelling up. It's hard to believe that these little things no more than the length of my palm are going to be as big as their parents in just a few weeks.

Today we celebrate day 21, and enter into week 4. Next week they will be weaned and sexually mature I can hardly believe it. Since we are growing so close to their new lives with you guys, I just wanted to double check that each person has the baby they desire?
I will also start trying more toys and treats and let you know what are some big hits.


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## Nimh

I'm set on Peony and Demetria. 

I'll be getting my paychecks on the 15th and 19th and I can't wait to go shopping to set up their half of the DCN. Please keep a look out on what the girlies seem to enjoy!


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## CJMoore

nanashi7 said:


> I honestly don't know who could breed HW on purpose. When someone said they were at risk my heart dropped. It is so hard to pet, cuddle, and play with these little cotton balls and know in the back of my mind once they start eating they may be at the end of their life.


HW's are just so cute which is why I decided to get rats from Petco, I though Kitty was just so cute. I told Carly that some of her rat babies are going to have a short lifespan much like other animal that only live a few days or a week or so. This short lifespan should not cause us not to love and adore them. This didn't help her cope, but it makes it feel a little better about the HW's we will most likely get. The litter we got out rats from appeared to be mostly HW's. Still hoping your babies are ok!


----------



## Daniel

Yes, I still want Apollo and Kairos. Tux is by himself and he needs company - I let him play with the other boys in free range but I can't put Tux in with them for room reasons.


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## Auvreathem

I am definitely set on Chara and Eos. Those tiny rats have stolen my heart. I hope the spay goes well with your girl... Best wishes. 


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## nanashi7

Just wanted to double check everyone is set.

I've realized with mama rat that I believe the incident occurred on the 24th. I will be rushing her to the vet but if that is the case, mama rat would be due in two days and certainly isn't acting it.

In other good news, the rats at the shelter have found homes for the most part


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Just wanted to double check everyone is set.
> 
> I've realized with mama rat that I believe the incident occurred on the 24th. I will be rushing her to the vet but if that is the case, mama rat would be due in two days and certainly isn't acting it.
> 
> In other good news, the rats at the shelter have found homes for the most part


Even the PEW? What sex is he/she/it? 

I ask because I am starting to think sickly boy isn't going to live. I hope he does, but I am doubtful. Failure to thrive and a low appetite does not have me confident.


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## nanashi7

Oh I'm sorry  I hope his passing is painless, then.

There are at least two pews, a female and male. I believe there to be more male PEWs, but it was hard to navigate into a bird cage cautiously and get inside their hideout -- after their mama bit me, I was a little hesitant admittedly.
I was contacted by a person who was able to take any and all that didn't otherwise find homes, but also was notified of two other interested parties. I haven't heard back from them but I hear PEWs are unpopular. Honestly I found them adorable and almost took the female home.


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## Nimh

I'm not trying to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong but...

If she is due in two days (roughly) maybe an e-spay isn't the best thing. The farther along in her pregnancy the more dangerous and difficult it is. 

If she is almost due only a very experienced vet should be allowed to attempt an e-spay, and even then there's still a chance at losing her. But then again two back to back pregnancies is never a good thing on mama. 

Hopefully no pregnancy has occurred and she is just a chubby mama at the moment.


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## nanashi7

That's what I was thinking. My dates were off and I thought she would've been due in a week, but I double checked and it appears two days. I definitely couldn't morally abort at that stage of development, and mama would have like a zero percent chance of coming through.


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## Nimh

Heres to hoping she just gained some pregnancy weight! 

Peony had to get her chubbiness from someone ;D


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Oh I'm sorry  I hope his passing is painless, then.
> 
> There are at least two pews, a female and male. I believe there to be more male PEWs, but it was hard to navigate into a bird cage cautiously and get inside their hideout -- after their mama bit me, I was a little hesitant admittedly.
> I was contacted by a person who was able to take any and all that didn't otherwise find homes, but also was notified of two other interested parties. I haven't heard back from them but I hear PEWs are unpopular. Honestly I found them adorable and almost took the female home.


Well I won't reserve anything, it just depends on what happens. If you can find them homes before then, don't hesitate to do so. 

But like I said, around here PEWs are by far the least popular. PetSmart, who seems to use a breeder who knows what they are doing, never has either PEWs or H-W's. The feeder places are either all H-W's or hoods. I haven't see a PEW for sale in years.


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## CJMoore

nanashi7 said:


> Just wanted to double check everyone is set.
> 
> I've realized with mama rat that I believe the incident occurred on the 24th. I will be rushing her to the vet but if that is the case, mama rat would be due in two days and certainly isn't acting it.
> 
> In other good news, the rats at the shelter have found homes for the most part


I just looked at the photo of your mama rat. You already know that I am clueless, but she looked fatter than Kitty (my pregnant rat). 

Maybe she is just big from all the milk. I know when I weaned my daughter my breasts got huge because she was drinking less, maybe it is the same with rats, I really hope so.


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## zurfaces

Daniel I got a pew at the pet store. I got it from jacks which I hate jacks but didn't know it then. Specifically I got her on Wilmington pike. I love pews so cute 

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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> Daniel I got a pew at the pet store. I got it from jacks which I hate jacks but didn't know it then. Specifically I got her on Wilmington pike. I love pews so cute
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I go to that Jacks or the one in Beavercreek. The one in Wilmington actually has a few rat fans that work for them, the one in BC no one cares about the rats. But I've never seen PEWs at either, not at least in the last year when I have gone. 

Jacks is sometimes cheaper for certain pet products than PetSmart so I sometimes use them...they also sell females, so unfortunately I have had to get from them.


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## zurfaces

Yea it's the only place I've been able to find glas water bottles. I also know robyn's nest in miamisburg has an adorable group of pew girls they were lab rats

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## Auvreathem

zurfaces said:


> Yea it's the only place I've been able to find glas water bottles. I also know robyn's nest in miamisburg has an adorable group of pew girls they were lab rats
> 
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How odd! I got my girls from the same jacks, and I also have looked at Robyn's rats. I'm pretty sure she said one or two of the three sisters had passed away 


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## zurfaces

Awe I just looked at them a couple months ago. They were so cute! I have a bunch of stuff I've been meaning to take over there but can't find the time. 

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## nanashi7

I don't really have any updates. We played again today, almost for an hour before they tuckered out! All of them are making improvements in being handled and in socialization. I quite adore fluffs crawling all over me. My family calls out "Willard! Willard!" when they see it. They are definitely learning behavior cues from their parents, such as getting on my shoulder (no, I don't let them. Much too dangerous but nonetheless they try) and coming to my hand with their parents. There was a bit of butt sniffing going on, but I think that is definitely expected. One rat (Elias) is growing especially ballsy and tried to nurse from Remus as best as I can tell. 

They are still really tiny and I really don't remember mine being this little. I would think they were mice if I hadn't watched them from birth til now. However, they clearly are on the right path to development as their _huevos_ are beginning to drop. If it is consolation to anyone, Remus's weren't as big as others I'd seen before he was neutered.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> There was a bit of butt sniffing going on, but I think that is definitely expected. One rat (Elias) is growing especially ballsy and tried to nurse from Remus as best as I can tell.


You see this occasionally. One of the most painful things I ever had a hamster do to another (though it was funny looking back on it because no real harm was done) was a fuzzie/pup escaped from the hamster pile during early free reign and latched on to daddy's imaginary 'nipple' - only the baby actually managed to dig out a little bit of daddy's skin in the process! I only noticed when I heard him screaming and literally had to pry the baby's teeth off of him.


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## nanashi7

Lol Remus jumped like three foot in the air and came to sit on my shoulder. If rats mutter darkly, I'm sure he was doing that.


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## nanashi7

I'm not sure how you guys feel about begging rats, but the babies have picked up on how to ask to come out of the cage. They gather on the hammock by the door (or hang on to the sides) and just look at me. It's my bad for being late on letting them out to free range.

All babies are using the water bottle successfully and I've been putting some high-protein seed diet in with the lab blocks on occasion and today I had a circle of baby rats hopping to eat some. They are still nursing, but are taking hard food. Baby carrots in particular seem to be enjoyed. I have found the babies litter box and am quite sure the babies are pooing fine. Today I finish covering the big cage in hardware cloth so they have more room and toys to play with. They are only together for about a week more, but I will be separating my cage into a top and bottom for genders. This means I also have to redecorate the cage today so each half is fun (I've been "themeing" the cage, with the bottom having the dig box, one hide, grass mats, and the wheel. The top is the comfy play zone with more hammocks, fleece, and hanging toys.)

I think I'll be keeping the five girls that haven't been adopted out yet permanently, so I'm a bit excited about that.

Today, I will also be rescuing the rats from my local shelter. They'll be kept at a friend's house and they are all going home on Friday. The males have found a home with one person, the females with another. I am going to see if mom rat (the aggressive one) will house with her baby girls without problems and she will be transferred to be fostered (the plan so far) and hopefully find a home soon after. I won't be giving away all the babies time to the new rats, but I will admit that I probably will be busy and not online as often what with socializing, travelling and what not. My friend will be helping so it shouldn't be bad.


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## Nimh

Do you know roughly when they will be able to leave the nest ;D

I'm going to have to request off of work and such around two weeks in advance.


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## nanashi7

Oh, shoot we are in the last two weeks now.
They are 4 weeks old this coming Monday, so I intended to separate them around the 23rd by gender. That should also be when they are done nursing (well, the boys won't have a choice in being done or not.)


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## nanashi7

Pretty sure I forgot to upload these pictures. I apologize. This was our carrot adventure:
http://i.imgur.com/oCRp33Ah.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vObgjqrh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2SAIClWh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uKY0oAah.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3HgCOeWh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kYOvrPGh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hCS4I7Qh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rm9Geawh.jpg


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## Nimh

Haha thats fine. 

I completely spaced about it until today! I also didn't remember if you had said something about keeping them late to watch for M/C.

I have two jobs at the moment so sometimes it is a struggle to get a day lined up where i'm completely free. BUT I would probably be able to come down the 24th or 25th!


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## nanashi7

Someone said that keeping them later might not provide a guarantee against MC, since they can develop it up into the 8th week. The 24th and the 25th are fine with me, just let me know when and where.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Someone said that keeping them later might not provide a guarantee against MC, since they can develop it up into the 8th week. The 24th and the 25th are fine with me, just let me know when and where.


Wish I could early too, but you're way far north for me and we have a member who is going to be up that way anyway. So my boys will be held late anyway with the side benefit of MC observance, though from the sound of it I doubt they have it.

Baby carrots are probably the main treat that I give my boys on a regular basis, so they will still get those. In the next month or two I will be transitioning everyone over to a custom mix from a combination of seed mixes (for my picky eater Parsely) and lab blocks. I feel bad though, because compared to what you have, my cages are boring. I hope I can add some toys by then.


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## zurfaces

They are so stinkin cute!!

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## nanashi7

Alright, I moved cages today. So as not to overwhelm them I have it restricted to one half right now. The rats seem super happy with it however. I tried to take a video of everything but after like five attempts of SOMETHING always coming up I decided y'all will have to make do -- it's dark, remus rolls in the tunnel down the ramp, and it probably is really loud thanks to tv and parakeets. I will try and write a description. By the way, I'm told I sound really young of video. I just wanted to assure you I'm 20 (21 in November). 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FRN7UzJzGY&feature=youtu.be
Anyway. I have a Feisty Ferret. It's like a DCN, but a bit smaller and has a single door that opens on the front rather than both sides. It's levels and ramps are plastic. I've covered the outside with hardware cloth and zip ties to hold in babies. It has primarily vertical bars, but the hardware cloth makes it easy to climb.

In the top half, my focus was being comfy since the rats prefer the top half for sleeping (I'm guess it's a bit like birds and makes them feel safer, with dogs on the ground and no burrows available). I have a triangle bird's nest that hangs, a hanging bed, and a hammock. They also have a cotton rope bandit bridge, and a wood level for sugar gliders. They've got that woven-grass tunnel, a snakshak house, a log for reptiles, and I threw the frog attachment from their play tunnels in their. I also have an overturned basket -- just a whicker basket flipped upside down, and I cut an entry way in it. They have this corner hideaway for hamsters that I modified to make bigger that allows them to reach the water bottle -- they can hide underneath as well, and have a square of sample carpet to mix things up. As for toys, they have a cement latter, a wood latter, the loofa/pinecone toy, a wood toy with bell, another little toy, and the seashell toy. They've also a hanging grass ball thing and a snakshak log. Finally, two chew sticks, a ball, and a corrot seed stick for treats. The level they are currently on has fleece covering the flooring, but the lower level is mostly a grass mat.
The rats are all living together happily -- I think they appreciate the extra space. Tomorrow, they will get the bottom half as well. I just didn't want to overwhelm and stress the babies. Next week when we gender-separate, boys will get the bottom to themselves and girls will have the top.


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## nanashi7

By the by, if you guys could give less a care about the cage just send me an FYI. Otherwise, I'll try and show the bottom tomorrow. Probably just take pictures and write a description because it will be like three times as dark...


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> By the by, if you guys could give less a care about the cage just send me an FYI. Otherwise, I'll try and show the bottom tomorrow. Probably just take pictures and write a description because it will be like three times as dark...


It makes me rather jealous, actually. I don't have the room for such a big set up yet. Makes me feel bad that the boys will have a bit of a downgrade cage wise. They also have a ton of toys there, where I only have a few (I blame this on not having gotten back into rats again until June).


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## nanashi7

I don't think they'll notice, what with new things to see and new people (rats and human) to get to know. They are also really tiny so toys are still pretty overwhelming. I had to get so many because some ignore others and others love them, and it helps to have picky birds that I can pass along to less picky rats. Honestly, toilet paper tubes and stones/sticks from outdoors seem to be what entertains them more than the $30 purchases I get all worked up about.
It took almost three months to accumulate everything, with one paycheck entirely going to the cage (bought used, fixed at home) and toys due to neuter guilt. I wanted him to have space and toys to distract him from being alone and having no balls. I also have no clue what rats like so I meander around the internet and pet stores looking for fun things for rodents, reptiles, birds and ferrets.

I also didn't want the rats to be like my two. They had no toys or wheel or anything so were overwhelmed when I got them and didn't or wouldn't play with anything. So, I spent more than I probably should have to make sure the babies would not be. Doesn't mean this is what they need. lol.

And, honestly, I always feel my cage is tiny and empty compared to the pictures you see online.


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## zurfaces

You'll **** a brick if you ever come to my house daniel. Whenever someone comes through the door for the first time they're like holy crap its a rat skyskaper /rat mansion / 5star rat hotel. Lol 

I also wanted to tell you if you need to borrow a cage to keep the babies in I have a small baby approved cage I use for hospital and travel you can use if you'd like. Auvreathem is borrowing one as well I have 3. 


I'm getting closer to my ultimate decision about my two reserved boys. Still not sure yet. 

Ot: I got told by my ins agent I sound like a 12 yr old today. I'm 23 :/ 

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## nanashi7

My insurance agent called my cellphone and asked to talk to my mother. The only worse thing is when I was told by the pizza man taking my order to "have a nice day, sir".

Back to rats: you'll have to let me know -- no pressure though. I still have the other cage and can keep this one split for a mix gender home until they are older and can be neutered.


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## nanashi7

Dang. Clearly the babies are eating. I have two food bowls in there for the rats and gave them a handful of baby carrots as treats and yummies. No carrots remain -- babies even wrestled for them! Now, lab blocks are down. ._.


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## nanashi7

I just wanted to throw in here I think having them with the parents has been a great decision. 
Momma is now not running as far away as possible from her babies but actually laid down and cuddled little Kairos. Papa has been playing with the babies and letting them run all over him. He keeps grooming the babies which I personally find adorable. The babies have picked up new behavior that I think is interesting -- caught a rat wrestling ring going on today. They've figured out the latters and how to use most of the toys. I'm hoping they'll be able to try the wheel too if they want. There definitely is more playing going on, I hear like three times as many bells ringing throughout the night. Remus finally has friends at his energy level lol.

They've also been using the big water bottle which I was worried was too big but have been successful so if you have a bigger one now worries.


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## nanashi7

Persephone has developed this awful practice, her favorite toy seems to be pulling others tails.


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## Nimh

Very nice set up nanashi. If I was a rat baby I think I would have a hoot in there. I loved the video! Watching them run all around was too cute.


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## nanashi7

They've become extremely active with the new cage and hardly nurse anymore. They sleep less now and are all running around.

Eos loves the cement latter, she does the silliest thing clmibing up three rungs to turn upside down and go back down. Chara is still a cuddle bug and has become attached to Remus. Remus is very patient and has been withstanding hand nibbles from the kids. Peony is still the most outgoing and usually the first to the door when I open it. She likes running through tunnels (er, toilet paper rolls) and sitting up on the high level. Demetria is starting to become less shy and has been wrestling with friends.She also figured out I have carrots for rats that come to me.

Elias still has silky smooth fur and I'm not sure if he doesn't like anything in particular or if he loves everything. He is a bouncing, bounding ball of energy. He was the first to figure out the yellow hammock and loves it. Apollo likes to nap under the water bottle and is also making strides in his shyness. The macrame latter has become his chew toy. Kairos is become quite the escape artist and has tested my defenses for weakspots. So far I have him under control. He likes to dig under the bedding to hide and play and mostly nap. Milo likes to chew everything is my best guess. In the span of a night he's gotten to the hammock lining and rope bridge. Of course, nothing that he is SUPPOSED to chew has his attention.

Athena has figured out balancing to an art and likes to sit there on the stick perch. Circe has gotten fluffy but still is a finger-nibbler. Persephone, as I mentioned, has a tail nibbling obsession. Everyone is her victim. Artemis's spots are less evident now, but she enjoys following mama around or climbing. Echo has the cutest fluff now, rivaling Chara's. It's not so light as Demetria but it's white/silver mixed throughout. She loves the grass ball and was hanging on it a while ago.


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## nanashi7

The bottom part of the cage: They have a big litter box filled with bedding and scrap fleece to dig and burrow in. They've this sugar glider hideout, it's essentially a hollowed out coconut. They've got their big wheel, and a big snakshak log to tunnel through with an opening up top. Part of the floor is a grass mat they love to chew. I relocated the latter and log down for more fun. Other than that, this level has two hanging toys a rope one they like to chew and a plastic one they sometimes ring. It also has a sleepy tunnel. By far this level is less exciting than the top but the rats seem happy trying to figure out how to get down, up, and how to work the wheel. Chara's passion has come out: she loves burrowing!


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## nanashi7

You know what's not smart? Not uploading pictures but sending things along.
http://i.imgur.com/9kwnYXo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Lv8AQOT.jpg


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## nanashi7

Alright. So I had this: http://shop.wagadeal.com/products/41611?ref=lexity&_vs=google&_vm=productsearch&adtype=pla&gclid=CP7T95b8_bgCFfA7MgodeU4A4Q
in the cage. They have entirely obliterated the stick in less than 24 hours. I'm going to vote they like it.

They also shared corn on the cob with mom this morning and enjoyed it. We have blueberries out for dinner but they don't seem to be a great hit.


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## Auvreathem

You have such a great cage! I'm jealous. I have a big cage but I can't seem to think of any toys the rats would like, I can only think of hammocks and hangouts. If you have any advice on what your rats love to play with it'd be greatly appreciated


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## nanashi7

Well, the adults love the wheel. Took a while but Remus adores it. They love tunnels or houses they can peek out of, like the side opening and top -- they like to "stalk" each other or myself and leap out. Jingly or ringy toys are also a big hit. I usually just use parakeet or other bird toys because personally I feel they are more suited to rats than rodent toys. Foraging toys or ones meant to be destroyed are fantastic -- parrot foraging toys could be used to hide treats in. They also like to balance on things so a rope perch or wood perch is a great investment. I gave my birds the rope perch but am going to get them a new one. My girl personally loves this little ball with a bell in it -- she loves to carry it around. It was one of the few toys I allowed in her mommy cage and she just had to have it in her nest. As for decorations, I recently became addicted to the reptile aisle with their wood and stone hide outs. They also love typical boxes; sometimes I fill these overmuch with hay or paper bedding so they have to dig out a home. I recently got a big square litter box that is probably meant for rabbits. The sides are big enough that I filled it with bedding and scrap fleece and they love to rustle through it. I've not yet hidden food in there, but I think I will stash a few nutriberries when I get the chance. Ladders also seem to be fun, and if you get cement ones I'd like to think it'll help with the nails.
If you online shop, I usually go to ferret.com, bird.com or drfostersmith.com to pick out things.


I just wanted to share this: I was worried with the caution I was getting with letting daddy rats be with their young babies. This is Remus, Elias, Persephone, and Milo (at least, I think just the three of them) napping with daddy. http://i.imgur.com/cExcM7r.jpg
He is their big squishy friend to climb over. He also will help with skritches. Right now Athena bit his tail so he got a bit upset and is using the babies as a pillow. The babies are also picking up on what I thought was a unique way of sleeping -- he likes to tuck his head under his body and drape his tail over his snout. I'm hoping they'll learn to tail groom from him too so we can have an army of tail groomers to brag about.


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## nanashi7

Papa is letting little Demetria groom his ears. She is such a gentle clumsy girl. Even nibbling on me she has the softest nibble. 
Elias meanwhile is having a stare off with my mother's dog. Honestly, I feel like he is ready to take her on. (Don't worry, they are both caged but they are just intent on each other).


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## nanashi7

Been working on having them flipped over and investigated. They hold still for about thirty seconds. They don't mind ear inspections, but teeth inspections usually end in finger nibbles. Probably going to have to start discouraging that (I found it cute!).

I've been handling them one on one outside the cage more as well as allowing their free range. I'm hoping the one on one handling will help get them to sit for pets, but I'm trying to curb my expectations with the fact they are hyper bundles of energy. They didn't free range too much today on account of getting the whole new cage to explore and I'm super anxious about stressing them out. They also benefited from it as we had quite a few tumbles down ramps today -- no injuries! The sudden hole in toe floor probably could've been introduced better but I honestly didn't expect them to wander straight out and down...


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## Daniel

It's been a few days since you said if mama was pregnant, should would have given birth by now. 

False alarm?


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## nanashi7

Yup she is just fat. Can't blame her with 13 kits taking her nutrients, but she chunked up. In the big cage she now has the wheel again so I'm hoping she'll run it off.


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## nanashi7

The babies are _trying_ to use the wheel. It's so huge I'm not sure they can. Others are either getting creative or don't understand its point: Demetria walks along the top of the outside.
Last night they managed to destroy the cage so I figured out what kept waking me up. The wheel is knocked loose, food bowls are overturned, Eos has been eating the rope bridge, and somehow a tunnel from the top is down in the digging box. They also somehow knocked the ramp going down the second level loose so we had trapped people up top and down below. Luckily, I put food and water down there.

Less babies are nursing, usually just a couple latch on until mama decides they are done. Honestly I think putting Remus in with them helped weaning processes as a lot of the babies like to follow him around and snuggle him.

Well, everyone just piled into the frog with Remus and mommy to settle down for a nap so I think I'll leave them be.


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## Nimh

Hooray for a false alarm and a fat mama!

You did a wonderful job on your cage. And it seems that Remus is a good papa!


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## nanashi7

Alright, I'm going to put out a super caution warning. I just spent twenty minutes assuring myself I was smarter than rats due to their now superb ability to escape. In fact, I have to lay some card board down because little Demetria managed to wiggle through spacing that is about 1/3in spacing into th e pan beneath the cage. Luckily she was only down there about fifteen minutes.
These rats are ridiculously tiny when you think that they are supposed to go home the end of next week. I don't remember my rats being this tiny. They are about the size of a mouse, with the wits and physical ability of grown rats. Maybe my "breeder" lied to me about the age of my rats but I just wanted to put it out their that they are as big as the pictures make them seem -- about half the size of an iphone length wise. If rats were puzzle pieces, I could fit four at least comfortable on mine.


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## Nimh

Oh my. 
Well good thing I just tore down my cage and attached hardware cloth to their level.


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## nanashi7

The hardware cloth holds them. I just never thought they could wiggle through the bars on the base of their cage since they are so much smaller and were covered in fleece/grass mat/toys.


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## Nimh

So have to decided to keep the rest of the babies? Or are you still looking for homes for some?


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## nanashi7

I've just decided to keep them. Actually, a friend wants to "sponsor" two of the girls -- he lives in the dorms near me, but wants to name tame and pay for everything for the girls. I'll just be supplying the cage space. I don't really mind since I started to get a little excited over having babies I've raised since day one.


Sorry, my computer died while we were free ranging. Then mama started nursing so I had to collect everyone up and fix the cage. I am going to have to buy some more water bottles, I thought one per level should be plenty but there seems to be three mouths per water bottle every time someone goes to get a drink.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I've just decided to keep them. Actually, a friend wants to "sponsor" two of the girls -- he lives in the dorms near me, but wants to name tame and pay for everything for the girls. I'll just be supplying the cage space. I don't really mind since I started to get a little excited over having babies I've raised since day one.
> 
> 
> Sorry, my computer died while we were free ranging. Then mama started nursing so I had to collect everyone up and fix the cage. I am going to have to buy some more water bottles, I thought one per level should be plenty but there seems to be three mouths per water bottle every time someone goes to get a drink.


Who are you keeping? Seems like it will be at least 3-4 girls. This was a girl heavy litter, so that's not too surprising.

I may keep girls in the future, but I will spay all of them which will be pricey. At least I won't have to keep a seperate cage then.


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## nanashi7

Artemis and Echo were the two I wanted to keep, and Persephone has joined in. He is coming to play with Circe and Athena and name them, and we are discussing how money is going to work.

My vet really didn't like the idea of spaying females, which sort of upset me because we disagreed on the risks and benefits weight. Essentially I was told girls would have to go elsewhere to be spayed. I didn't originally want to keep girls due to their higher tendency for tumors that is best lessened with costly spays. 

It's a bit funny how my attempt for two male rats has ended in all girls and one boy :\


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## Nimh

My vet wont spay rats either. Which really bothers me since out of my original 4 rats, 3 of them got mammory tumors. I love having female rats, but the tumors are definitely their biggest downfall.


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## nanashi7

It frustrate me. I feel as if they should discuss the risks with us and allow us to elect to do it or not based on that. I would think they would rather us spay them with experienced vets than someone whose spayed rabbits or guineas more. But my vet just disagreed that spaying would be worth the tumor prevention -- said there wasn't data to support that.


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## zurfaces

One good thing is having a litter reduces their chance of having tumors so your girl might be fine. 

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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> My vet really didn't like the idea of spaying females, which sort of upset me because we disagreed on the risks and benefits weight. Essentially I was told girls would have to go elsewhere to be spayed. I didn't originally want to keep girls due to their higher tendency for tumors that is best lessened with costly spays.


Yeah, if you aren't going to breed a female rat, you gotta get them spayed, IMO. This is why I am not going to keep any for awhile (cost wise). Any vet who does rats and is against spaying is crazy. Intact females have a ridiculous 3/4 chance of getting tumors if they do not.

That is why I am somewhat miffed (even on this board), of people who want to do mixed cages, but instead neuter their males and leave the intact females unspayed. It ought to be the other way around, despite the cost.


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## Daniel

I know it isn't always possible (like with your vet), though.


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## nanashi7

I know the risk is higher for females, but the health benefit is worth it to me. If Caius hadn't been pregnant I would have spayed her instead of neutered him, even if it would've been $100 more. I just didn't want to go to another vet that isn't good with small animals.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I know the risk is higher for females, but the health benefit is worth it to me. If Caius hadn't been pregnant I would have spayed her instead of neutered him, even if it would've been $100 more.* I just didn't want to go to another vet that isn't good with small animals*.


I know what you mean. My vet is clueless on rats and I think his misdiagnosis (and brushing off of certain symptoms) is what caused my Pepper to have to be put down (he got a bad abscess - doc didn't want to amputate most of his tail like I wanted).


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## nanashi7

Yikes. 
One of the vets is a Banfield, and after having me make an appointment for sexing admitted when I showed up she hadn't done it since vet school. I had to show her what I did and we still ended up with one unsure baby - Artemis. ._.
The other vet only sees birds and I really didn't like how she handled one of my parakeets, who was in for her leg that was broken while she was a baby and I wanted to know if it could be corrected. She dropped my baby bird onto the floor, and despite knowing it wasn't tamed yet (the day after I bought Ghost) told me I could pick her up because the exam was done.

I haven't yet had to deal with any health problems but I'm hoping the vet that did the neuter will be knowledgeable about medical problems.


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## nanashi7

I've been holding the babies individually a lot more. They aren't wild about being pet but my finder is as big as them so I imagine it can be fearful. However they settle in a lot more if you are holding them when petting them. 

They are playing with Remus almost constantly, and have started beating up on poor Caius. They keep doing rodenstry on her which I hope is normal. They love carrots but mom keeps running around stealing them and hoarding them. They also like nutriberries, so if you pop by the bird aisle you could get them.
They've begun sleeping in different piles, at least four or five of them.

On Monday, I'll try and do face/body shots again to mark their 28th day and will keep updating this with my silly rambles and weekly pictures until everyone has gone home.
I am going to try and start getting the ratties wet so their fear levels with water aren't high. No swimming, but maybe we'll try fishing.


I realized I should talk some about their general living conditions outside of the cage environment, that way you knew what they already deal with. If you have questions, let me know.
I keep the house around 72-74F typically, though it can get colder (68) or warmer (78) depending on the weather outdoors and such. I try to keep the temperature steady, and any increases come slowly.
I vacuum daily so they are accustomed to that. They also live in a room with four noisy parakeets so I doubt people with loud homes will find bothered rats. The parakeets sometimes flit about their cage trying to see whats inside so suddenly flying birds don't seem to terrify them.
Also residing in the house are two terriers, one who is potty trained and one who is fearful and barks. They've had stare-offs with the dogs (dogs cannot and will not touch my rats) but mama taught them not to approach them -- the dogs fear the rats anyway, thanks to Remus nipping them early in my rat adventures.
Typically I cover part of their cage to lessen the light that filters in, but if they are particularly evil with my blanket I will remove it.
They are kept on fleece, but their old cage used paper bedding. They get little areas of hay to play in occasionally. The parents are not sensitive to dust a trait I hope passed down to the kits.
Their free range zone is limited to a hallway right now, which I vacuum daily as well.
I don't have company much due to high social anxiety, but my nieces, boyfriend, and sister all visit on occasion. Since their cage is next to the door of my room this means they are used to trafficked areas. The parents personally are always at the side of the cage as if they were dogs checking out whoever is entering.


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## Daniel

Thats not too different from what I have temp wise, though I don't own any birds so the only noise near them in my home is the sound of the fish tank filter and the hum of my computer's fans. 
Right now I have two cages - one is a (large) bird cage with 3 levels, very old so I dont know the brand. It has barred levels, so I have them covered. I have 3 rats in there now. The other cage is a GP cage, more long than tall, and right now only Tux is in it so it is roomy. It has a second plastic level. 

I will probably integrate everyone in to one larger cage next month, which will be the only cage I will keep from then on (barring an unforeseen pregnancy on a future female).

Looking forward to seeing the 4 weeks pics of the babies.


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## nanashi7

Their fur is starting to get the guard hairs, I think. Almost all the rats have a frazzeled look to them, except for the fuzzies who are still fluffy/curly, and for Elias who has that unique slick coat. 

Some of the males' equipment has dropped, so they definitely will be separated next week. I'm hoping I'll wake up and they will have grown though, I'm really worried about their size in relation to what I remember my rats being. I'll try and get the biggest and smallest rat next to a quarter for comparison.

No real fun updates today other than socializing went well. They are wrestling like crazy now with some nice pins and grooms. They got some toilet paper tubes today and went straight for it. They are starting to sleep alone or in very very small groups, making locating them sometimes problematic. They figured out the latter and love climbing it.They started using this coconut hideaway thing meant for sugargliders or parrots and had a babypile going on. Otherwise they like to balance atop it and chew it.

Well, off to free range. I'll try to get some fun pictures, but they are crazy fast now. I've so many pictures of literally nothing on my roll.


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## nanashi7

Gosh I hope it's the adults but I wanted to put it out there that when free ranging I get scratched up so babies _might _need nails clipped. Going to call vet and see if I can get a good group rate first.

Some pictures (I'm gonna go back to playing with them, easier with two hands!) Usually try to weed out the awkward photos but bear with me...
http://imgur.com/a/GcoVj

I took some video, the first showing some of them playing and mobbing my hand the other an accident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWmC5_BRRJA&feature=youtu.be
http://youtu.be/EaPiKwH1V6I
All of them have figured out that lovely knack of running on the keyboard so FYI. They love to mob hands put near them as you can see. Can't tell if that's socialized or not. 
Babies are picking up on Mama's licking habit. Really cute. 

Babies trying to shoulder rat. G2g...


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## Daniel

This is not something I have seen, but I wonder if it will be OK to skip quarantine on rats I trust where they are coming from (ie your rats). I thought about doing intros on the drive back even (an unfamiliar, traumatic place for all of my rats) with maybe a couple of them. 

One of my travel cages is occupied by blondie, and the only other one I have is an even smaller travel cage.


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## nanashi7

Hm, I wouldn't know personally. Maybe give them a good once over and maybe a few days?
I would think if they were ill it would spread amongst them/the parents and maybe even affect my parakeets (always worried about them as sensitive as they can be to illness) by September. Or at least it would be something that showed. I also don't think anything would be introduced into the mischief, as I am a bit of a hermit preferring to stay home if not at work or school. Since college doesn't exactly have classroom pets (especially in the philosophy department) and working at ITS means minimal people contact, I'd like to think the babies would be clear.

But I'm really biased :]


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## nanashi7

If needed, I have the modified guinea cage. It's covered in 1/4in hardware cloth and has two "levels" I made.


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## Daniel

From the video, I can see they also seem to enjoy hair ties. Good thing I have long hair and have a few ties laying around, I wouldnt have considered that as a toy.


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## nanashi7

Lol I didn't notice until Eos latched on to the one on my wrist one while I was trying to gather them up. I'm just so used to rats fussing in my hair I hadn't realized Caius had once again pulled my hair down. They also were obsessing over a necklace, which I hadn't meant to be a toy -- I actually noticed while taking the video that it was being dragged away. Lol. I swear rats are one of the few creatures out their that love random things otherwise drab for toys.


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## Daniel

I am surpised how small they are for nearly 4 week old rats. In a couple of those pics, they almost look like large mice. Seems like they may end up growing up rather smallish? I guess that is the consequence of momma having given birth so young.


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## nanashi7

Yeah, that's what I've been worried about. Honestly if I didn't have almost daily pictures I would think I was a shady breeder getting rid of baby rats. I've spoken to vets and a few people online who say it may be due to Caius's age and the number of babies she has to feed. I hope that is the case because they don't appear to have grown much this week and I don't want any lasting repercussions health or behavioral wise for being midget rats.


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## nanashi7

Just thought I would share this because I find it cute. Either they are mimicking their parents or are really doing better socializing. They like to climb up onto me and brux. It is so cute. Some of the babies are starting to nip more and harder and I'm trying to figure out how to correct it. Remus has been letting the babies win with wrestling, it is so funny to see Peony try to jump up on his back and pin him -- the babies are about the size of the adults's head.
They are starting to learn some basics of litter training, such as pooping in corners rather than all over the place. I'm grateful as cleaning the cage has been a hassle lately!


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## nanashi7

Here is a standard-sized baby (Athena to be precise) and a quarter. They were nursing so I couldn't get other babies.
http://i.imgur.com/7VbZXyP.jpg


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## nanashi7

Rattie babies can now jump at least a foot straight up.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Here is a standard-sized baby (Athena to be precise) and a quarter. They were nursing so I couldn't get other babies.
> http://i.imgur.com/7VbZXyP.jpg


Very small. Sickly blondie died this morning, but he was ALOT worse off than yours. Yours are smallish but otherwise healthy. Blondie I suspect got separated from his mother at about 2 weeks. He never thrived and didn't have much of an appetite. (in retrospect, I should have been giving him formula when I got him even though he was 4 weeks old) It sounds like yours eat everything - a good sign.


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## Timberlee Fields

How old is Athena nanashi? 


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## nanashi7

I'm sorry for your loss  Poor blondie.

Since they are so small, I will be putting a bottle of formula on the boys' half next week when they separate from Caius. I hope she'll still allow the girls to grow. I also saw recommended a nutri-cal paste. I just worry because they appear a healthy weight and as you said eat everything very healthily and I don't want small but fat rats :\


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## nanashi7

Timberlee Fields said:


> How old is Athena nanashi?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Athena will be 4 weeks (28 days) on Monday.


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## Timberlee Fields

Bambi is still really tiny and should be 4 weeks Monday, too. /: Her body is like the length of 3.5 quarters when she's stretched out. I picked up some baby food and extra cans of tuna today at the market so hopefully that helps. /:


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## Daniel

Sometimes rodent mommas will let the babies feed just before week 5. (though I don't know if it is this way with rats, it was with Syrian hamsters)

I take it nursing is now rare, and that momma gets annoyed by it (ie walks off or even kicks them off)?


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## nanashi7

It is pretty rare, and mama ends it early for the babies. She also prefers to be away from her babies more often. In fact, the only reason she appears to nurse as often as she does is because the babies only come in about groups of 3 to nurse, rather than all 13 squirming in there. The most complacent nursing she has done lately is today she was asleep and rolled over on her side for a baby (single one).

@ Timberlee: make sure she doesn't get too much protein a day though, as I've heard it can lead to early tumor development and girls are prone to them enough.


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## Timberlee Fields

I was gonna give her a teaspoon of baby food and a half a table spoon of tuna. Do you think that's too much?


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## nanashi7

That should be good, I just meant to not give her like a can a week.


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## Timberlee Fields

I just wanna fatten her up, not kill her. 


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## nanashi7

Oh, that reminds me. Today we tried bits of pup-peroni, lettuce, and a new type of dog kibble.
Pup-peroni was a moderate hit. Lettuce was a miss. And as for kibble, if that is what anybody else uses as added protein then you are in luck because they've ate three different kinds and all were good -- blue salmon, a hypoallergenic brand, and another grain-free brand.


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## nanashi7

Timberlee Fields said:


> I just wanna fatten her up, not kill her.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Did you get any infant formula for her? Someone else with sick babies is using puppy nutri-cal paste too.


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## Timberlee Fields

No, but I have $30 left over after ordering my cage and the clicker I'm going to use to train her (got some blueberry gerbers graduates snacks as treats, too!) and can order some nutri-cal and a small thing of baby formula as well if need be. 


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## Daniel

You should try spaghetti. My rats go insane for it, especially if you wiggle it in front of them like its a worm or a small snake.


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## nanashi7

The parents hated cooked pasta, but loved uncooked macaroni. I used to buy those cheap little microwave cups just for them.


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## Timberlee Fields

I ordered some puppy nutri cal I'm gonna wait on the formula until I'm sure I need it. 


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> The parents hated cooked pasta, but loved uncooked macaroni. I used to buy those cheap little microwave cups just for them.


Hm. Maybe because it has no sauce (or does it?)? Mine has always been cooked. But I guess all rats are different. My alpha rat Parsley is the pickiest eater I have ever had. 

But at least you said they like carrots. My boys get at least 1 a day.


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## nanashi7

Carrots, Kibble, and Nutriberries are their favorites. I'm ordering some formula just to put in a secondary water bottle to offer it around lunch.

I didn't offer it with sauce since I usually only eat it with alfredo and have heard mixed things about rats and cheese.

In other news, Papa rat has taken over Caius's duties as mom essentially. He cuddles them, plays with them, grooms them, and shares his food. Mom ignores them and steals their treats lol.


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## nanashi7

Today it was like somebody snuck pixie sticks into the rats food. They woke me up at 5:30am being ridiculously hyper. I fed them played a bit and tried to see what was going on. Food was empty by 8:00am thanks to the kits.
We free ranged around 10:45am until 11:30am -- not a full hour, but my birds sounded distressed so I had to call it quits. The babies could've kept going. Everyone was bounding about, jumping around, and wrestling -- even momma rat! Never saw her like this before lol. Today's favorite toy was a box, everyone was trying to figure out how to get on it and I saw some real problem-solving and team-work at work.
Their personalities are more and more evident so I'll try and write up again a description -- the easiest way to spot Milo v Persephone, for example, is Milo's cuddliness while Persephone is painfully shy.

It's almost impossible to manage the babies and parents at their current activity level, at least alone. Will continue to work with socialization but for the most part the only fear they show is of my hands -- which is reasonable, given their size.


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## nanashi7

I forgot to add -- I never tried to shine a light in the rats eyyes because I didn't want to frighten or damage them, but it does look like some babies might have dark ruby eyes like momma. Does anyone want me to confirm eye color for their babies?


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I forgot to add -- I never tried to shine a light in the rats eyyes because I didn't want to frighten or damage them, but it does look like some babies might have dark ruby eyes like momma. Does anyone want me to confirm eye color for their babies?


That might be good, actually. Pink eyed rats have much worse vision than black eyed rats, and rubys are somewhere in between, so maybe it would be good to know.


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## nanashi7

Alright, I'll be sure to get everything tomorrow. Gotta find a low-quality flash light -- Caius's I know only show in specific light angles. Definitely no pink or red eyes, but ruby ones maybe.

Upgraded to bigger baby carrots (the more typical size ones rather than these little shredded ones) and they were a bit too much for the little little babies. Everyone has calmed down so I'm waiting for high activity before we free range again. Everyone also has set up a home in the digging box I guess. That or this is a big hit: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=25558

They loved the cage being cleaned yesterday and I think some of the babies are learning to scent mark? I dunno but it feels like I get dribbled on despite not being able to see any.


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## nanashi7

Babies have been using the wheel a bit. It's also impossible to move about without the babies mobbing me. Before I noticed, I had three on my shoulders, two in my lap, one on my foot and five mobbing my hands as I typed. A bit ridiculous, really. The babies are pretty good about coming to get into the carrier to go to the free range zone, and luckily the painfully shy ones will be sticking with me. I've also been working on the no command, but really they only seem to get they aren't supposed to be doing that when I snap my fingers. I didn't mean to work on the command but these cottonballs are robotic escape artists...


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## Daniel

When I get a the new cage, I will start to keep a wheel. I do remember Parsley was running on one when I bought him. The bird cage they take up too much room in the bottom, and the GP cage I have to move the 2nd level up too much for it. The one I have is also an older wired one, so I will replace that. 

Hopefully by the 9th or whenever it is I can get the brothers I will have a new combined cage so everyone can live together. I've moved Parsley into the GP cage with Tux since blondie died, so right now I have a 2 and 2 situation.

(and speaking of new cages, if either of my fellow Dayton ratforumers have an old cage they would sell me, please tell me!)


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## nanashi7

I will warn you if they learn from Remus you'll need one that attaches to the cage. I have to get a new wheel because he gets excited and bounds on the wheel, causing it to knock loose. One of the rats tried this but as tiny as they are simply got whipped off the wheel.

I think Zurfaces is coming back on the 7th?


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## nanashi7

I do not think this information pertains to any of the rats being adopted. 
At 2:30am while mom was nursing a baby managed to somehow lodge its hind foot or perhaps tail in the bars of the cage. I woke to the squealing sounds of pain. It was a grey baby, but it was not Elias or Demetria as far as I could tell. Admittedly I was not exactly the most awake and sitting to observe with a hurt baby crying for help. I moved mama out of the way and pulled the baby lose. It's cries of pain immediately ceased, so I believe it was more panic and distress than injury.
I am currently sitting up and watching the rats to see if I can't determine who it was and if there is any damage. For the most part, I cannot. All babies seem to be mobile, active, and not suffering any sort of problems. I had hoped mama would find the baby in need, but she was relieved I helped the baby and has not approach any particular kit. The babies approached my hand so I have seen Demetria, Elias, and Circe to confirm they were in good sorts -- only Echo and Artemis remain, I believe. I don't want to stress out this baby that probably is already having an awful day by removing it instantly while they all seem to be playing about.
Since this isn't exactly when I enjoy waking up, I will do a closer examination during pictures tomorrow. It is my belief however that there is nothing wrong as the cries stopped instantly and they all seem to be happier.

I am attempting to figure out how this exactly occurred. As stated, I was tired and acting fast so I quickly removed the baby and it immediately ran off to hide. Since then I have been sitting and watching. I do not, again, believe it to be a baby that is adopted out.
I was just passing along all incidents. I am sorry this has occurred.


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## nanashi7

So I hid some treats and the babies Love Love Love digging and foraging. For those of you adding to older mischiefs, definitely go slow with introductions because they clearly have a wrestling problem and their parents encourage it. Just worried about older rats not enjoying being mobbed.
Here are week four pictures: Forgot to look at the dang eye color so when we finish free ranging I'll update with a list. As you can see in the pictures, the babies are super mobile and really hard to photograph. They also seem to have gotten a growth spurt!

Kairos: http://i.imgur.com/Zff57Inh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ZgGfAkTh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/s47ossxh.jpg

Elias: http://i.imgur.com/XyQy5fxh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/2pzBTy1h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5THzaoRh.jpg

Eos: http://i.imgur.com/SXsNGIUh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dEUYmhXh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/JujP80Zh.jpg

Chara: http://i.imgur.com/ELz5KK6h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/wO4XC66h.jpg

Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/M3e9CW4h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/99EYHn7h.jpg

Echo: http://i.imgur.com/08mw392h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/V2gWdfOh.jpg

Peony: http://i.imgur.com/gHGQlmeh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/W8gp6ajh.jpg 

Milo: http://imgur.com/0Xrn4yt,PULeouC,ZvNyDy1,ZWwn1eZ

Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/v6EWvAWh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5Qnfw8dh.jpg

Persephone: http://i.imgur.com/NJH8F9Nh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/b7oa18Oh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UWRYmQUh.jpg

Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/X6hrkYvh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/k1IpCnqh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/PNf2k0yh.jpg

Athena: http://i.imgur.com/eI9nczgh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/vn5hkgEh.jpg

Circe: http://i.imgur.com/K3v0DPYh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/k6vqns1h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rknt4m8h.jpg

Edit: I apologize, some where in the baby categorizing I made a mistake. Milo is Athena. The vet compounded on my mistake so I didn't notice until Athena had testicles. I double checked again and there are three black babies with white marks, two girls one boy. Double checked males for being males.


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## Daniel

Cute pictures!

Looks like both of my boys are black eyed. Good contrast in the photos, so I would be able to see if they were rubys. They don't seem so small now? At least, Apollo doesn't - he's looking about the same size Tux was when I got him.


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## nanashi7

Yep they had a nice growth spurt in the night. Telling eye colors is a bit hard with them moving so I'm trying to wait and catch a glimpse unless you guys can determine from the pictures. We are trying to find the angle that shows Caius's rubies so we can use it on the babies. :\
Anyway. Here is a picture of Kairos v. a Battery (AA): http://i.imgur.com/tNIjNcg.jpg


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## Daniel

I just looked at all of them. Boy, Persephone looks like a little fatty! Didn't you say shes a daddys girl anyway who gets babied by him?


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## Micha

*Any babies available?*

Hi Nanashi7, are there any babies still available? I didn't read all 30 posts, and if they are spoken for, I apologize. Please let me know which babies are still available, if any. I am in Northeast Ohio. I have a Critter Nation with two spayed girls. Thanks!


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## nanashi7

Yep, she's always attached to somebodies hip. Remus babies them which means he gives his treats away to whomever is closest.

The babies have picked up their mother's habit of licking. I heard it was pretty rare and I haven't figured out why they do it.


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## nanashi7

Micha said:


> Hi Nanashi7, are there any babies still available? I didn't read all 30 posts, and if they are spoken for, I apologize. Please let me know which babies are still available, if any. I am in Northeast Ohio. I have a Critter Nation with two spayed girls. Thanks!


Athena and Circe are not spoken for -- my friend wanted to sponsor them in my cage, but if you like them I'd rather they go. They are both girls -- Athena is black with a head spot, a dumbo; Circe is grey with a head spot.


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## zurfaces

Micha you can also have my boys if you want them I'm not sure I'll be taking them. So if you want the two boys I reserved that's fine. Going through a rough spot right now I'm thinking about giving up my tallulah a friend said she could live with her girls until the end. If anything I'll get one baby and it'll be a girl probably

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## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> Micha you can also have my boys if you want them I'm not sure I'll be taking them. So if you want the two boys I reserved that's fine. Going through a rough spot right now I'm thinking about giving up my tallulah a friend said she could live with her girls until the end. If anything I'll get one baby and it'll be a girl probably
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm sorry 
Don't feel obligated to take babies, I can keep boys and girls. I have room for 12 rats comfortably with my main cage splitting in two and my spare cage, and right now only have my original 2 and the 5 girls (7 total). I can certainly keep two more boys and neuter them down the road. And of course girls are no problem what with Remus being neutered.


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## Micha

Which Boys Zurfaces? Both girls are adorable too! I will spay or neuter either. Thanks for offering, sorry you are having trouble..


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## nanashi7

I _believe_ it was Milo and Elias (I don't have my papers on me right now): I'm like 99% sure (there are only 4 boys.)

Elias: http://i.imgur.com/XyQy5fxh.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/2pzBTy1h.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/5THzaoRh.jpg

Milo: http://imgur.com/0Xrn4yt,PULeouC,ZvNyDy1,ZWwn1eZ

Athena: http://i.imgur.com/eI9nczgh.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/vn5hkgEh.jpg

Circe: http://i.imgur.com/K3v0DPYh.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/k6vqns1h.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/rknt4m8h.jpg


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## Daniel

Yes, that's correct. My boys are Apollo and Kairos. Hopefully homes can be found for all of them.


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## nanashi7

Oh. I forgot to update from last night. All babies are doing fine, but Circe is very squeaky when handled. I examined her for injuries, prodded about and it really just seems an aversion to touch. We've been working with her more to help this.


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## nanashi7

I think Apollo is going to be a little dominant one. He is excellent at pinning and practices on everyone he can.

Also, tonight during play they got a hold of a sponge and shredded it. It was a lot of fun for them to ruin something.


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## clynn1996

Do you still have any available?


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## Daniel

clynn1996 said:


> Do you still have any available?


See post #304. She has 2 girls and 2 boys available still.


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## Micha

Natasha, I like Elias as well as Athena. What are the personalities like? Thanks!


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## Micha

I didn't mean Natasha! I typed Nanashi and my Ipad auto corrected it to Natasha...sorry


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## nanashi7

Elias is very outgoing -- he is the most social, running up to the doors and going straight to grooming or playing with my hand.

Athena is quite the opposite, very shy. She is sweet if you pretend not to notice her and will climb up to your shoulder and brux but is still skittish when it comes to returning the attention.


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## nanashi7

The babies look even bigger today! Now I'm not so worried about separating them from momma this week.

They also hardly nurse. In fact, in five hours they managed to kill both food bowls. They are both about 2-3 oz, and I usually only fill them twice daily. Now they need about four refillings a day. They also kill a 8oz water bottle daily -- the other is luckily 32oz and takes longer.

They are sleeping less and less which is fun for me. They are now so mobile the spare cage has to be kept in the free range area and I have to retrieve babies in pairs, lock them in the cage, and repeat until all 15 are out and then let them out of the cage. They are wrestling like crazy -- you'll see me posting a question about it soon lol. Many of them love water and have figured out how to use the water bottles to get their hands wet and wipe themselves. We're trying pea fishing tomorrow  Some of the babies have shown tail grooming which is what I wanted to pass on; some others also show dad's affinity for perching up high and shitting, so beware your walls.

I'm a little sad and super excited that it's approaching time to go home. I can't wait to bond with my rats and the babies I'm keeping, and I can't wait to see what these babies will be like with you guys! See, I'm used to my babies who were immersed and super awesome imo and it's hard to bond with these rats just due to the number, the fact they are leaving and because I don't know how to approach them.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I'm a little sad and super excited that it's approaching time to go home.


You still have about 2 1/2 weeks yet. They will start to be in the destructive phase by then (which Tux is still in), you'll be happy to lower your numbers by then!


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## nanashi7

The weeks fly by for me. I couldn't believe that it's almost time for them to be able to baby-make (5 weeks). I can still hardly believe that these are the pink eepers that used to be kinda gross and cute at the same time. Plus two weeks sounds long until I realize that it's 18 days.

But yes, I am ready to have less rats. The poop is ridiculous and they have figured out team work for being super crazy. I push one rat away from doing something bad and three more take its place ._.


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## zurfaces

nanashi7 said:


> some others also show dad's affinity for perching up high and shitting, so beware your walls.


OMG LOL this is too funny


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## nanashi7

I hate it. I didn't notice it until I went to reorganize my room. It just sticks there >.>


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## nanashi7

Sponges and loofas are a hit. Really recommend stopping by the dollar store and getting some.
Remus just relocated it - it was in the way so I put it in the digging box, must've upset the feng shui because he just carried it to the top level and looked at me like I nipped his nuts again lol


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## nanashi7

Had some cantaloupe and melon tonight. Big hit!


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## Nimh

If anyone else is interested in Peony and Demi I may have to give up my rights to them. I'm devastated because I have been so excited, but its looking like I will have a litter coming in from my Kink and I am going to want to make sure I have enough room for any kits I can't find a home for.


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## nanashi7

I figured as much, that's okay! Have you been able to take her to the vet? She should pop no later than the 29th.

So for babies available, that brings us to:
Boys - Milo, Elias
Girls - Athena, Circe, Demetria, and Peony

I'll be keeping Artemis, Echo, and Persephone for myself. They are gender-segregated this week. This weekend is the time some of them could find homes, for the two of you who've popped up and don't want to read 30 pages lol. I can't wait to segregate because it means I can redesign the cage!

Their socializing is getting better by the day. Today I had to end free range because I had 13 babies crawling over me, nipping on me -- they could've lasted longer but I could not!
They all have reached my goal of letting me hold and pet them for at least 30 seconds. I have to go get a second wheel because Remus doesn't like to share :/. Remus has also started wrestling more with the boys, I think to establish his alpha status now. He still babies the girls. The babies had some ribbon to play with, which was fun. Just make sure only to use it out of the cage because wiggling writhing babies tangle up easily.

I thought I had something else but I can't remember what :/


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## Daniel

Argh, I hope everyone doesn't end up backing out. Wasn't there one more Daytonite who was getting a couple?


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## zurfaces

Avareathem is taking two regardless of not getting them I'll still bring whatever back I need to. I'm still not sure if I'll be getting any or not. 

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## nanashi7

Well, there are the babies still waiting if you can and they'll stay here if you can't. No worries


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## nanashi7

My mother ate the peas meant to fish with. Instead, I decided to put a bowl of water out in the cage. They love it! Haha. They sit in it and splash and groom.

Kairos is a really deep sleeper that keeps spooking me in his level of laziness. He loves to sleep up high which is cute. Tomorrow is our last group-free range and the day they get segregated. I put it off longer than I meant due to concern of size, but we are still days before the 5th week. I am waiting for money so neither level is more decorated in the other.

We didn't get to free range today, which is my fault. It was my niece's first day of school and her 6th birthday. I also rescued a rat so was over at my sister's house where she is quarantining. Don't worry, it's not a problem that will continue to occur. Tomorrow my boyfriend is coming over to supervise free range while I am out running, about 3 hours straight. When I get home we are cleaning the cage out and redecorating, while we segregate them. I'll try and make sure each group has their favorite toys. I feel really bad about confining 15 rats into a cage meant for 7-8 adults all day with no time out  Sorry


----------



## nanashi7

We had some steamed tomatoes tonight, another hit.


----------



## nanashi7

Babies were out for about 3 hours today  I purchased a pine cone treat for them, I think they put honey on it. They like it well enough.

They are now gender segregated after one less nursing. Three days before they would be sexually active. The girls are up top, the cage is kept mostly the same. Boys are down bottom, no wheel and the litter box has been flipped into a big house. I feel bad about separating Remus and Caius but they'll be allowed a free range just themselves until they can live together. The girls seem hyper but the boys not so much. Here's this: http://imgur.com/a/1B1N8
Somehow girls got pink themed lol.

Depending on if the 2 boyos find homes and when, I might end up introducing Tenzo to the rats after the Dayton-babies go home, and put the two males together in the old guinea cage -- so Remus, Caius, Echo, Athena, Artemis, Circe, Persephone, Demetria, Peony and Tenzo would live together in the big cage. I'm hoping at least the two boys will find homes, and at least two more girls. Haha if not I'm gonna have to stack another cage ontop and buy a ladder just to reach in it (the top of the Feisty Ferret right now is at my chin lol).


----------



## nanashi7

Boyo rats have picked up their father's preference for sleeping on non-plush surfaces, plastic shelves, wood, etc. Remus does it to keep cool who knows about them. I can't tell which girl but one of them has also picked up Remus's bizarre preference for tucking his head under his body and draping his tail above his face.


----------



## nanashi7

Zurfaces, when would you know about adopting any babies? I was thinking of setting that as a sort of "deadline for exclusivity", for the two others that popped up expressing interest.
Once I've exhausted ratforum as a resource, I was thinking of reaching out with the rest of the babies to find a home. I would prefer to keep my rats around 7 (8 tops) so I don't have rats who don't get individual love. Ratforum would be the preferred place to rehome them as opposed to craigslist, so I want to offer the chance for "first dibs" here.

Again, babies remaining are males: Elias Milo; females: Athena, Peony, Demetria, Circe.


----------



## zurfaces

I do not know but unreserve my boys and if someone takes them that's okay but if not bring the ones left behind with you on the swap and I'll have a peek and hopefully someone will steal my heart.  



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## Daniel

Careful with Craigslist. If you look at alot of the snake forums, they will often recommend getting feeders off of there if none are available locally.


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## nanashi7

I would increase the price and be more stringent. Hopefully, there are enough live and frozen feeders posted weekly they'd ignore me. Ideally, I don't want to use craigslist at all so I'm hoping the babies will go soon. Though, I'm worried that if they turn older than 8 weeks, no one will want them since they aren't babies.
I probably won't even use Craigslist -- I know it's silly, but I feel super protective concerning the babies and want them to have a good home. I just read horror stories concerning not going to the vet, or neglecting them. Before researching, I did not know rats needed to free range, needed vet care, had restrictions on environment and food. In fact, my boyfriend had a friend that wanted a SINGLE baby and I got really upset. They said that it didn't need a friend because it could come over and play once a week :/ The more I talked to the person the more I realized I really would prefer members take them than others.
Besides, I look forward to hearing stories of them once others own them -- I want to see how they grow and what they act like  

In other news, the babies are huge. I've been trying to put mommy in the boys cage for a couple hours so she can nurse them and hang out with Remus (obviously won't do this after Sunday), but she isn't into too much. The babies aren't really nursing anyway -- when they were nursing this morning, their food bowl was empty. When I put some blocks in the babies! ended the nursing session and jumped on the food bowl! Haha.
I also start school on Monday so I will be considerably busier. I apologize for that -- it will mean my absence on the forum more than with the rats. I do work for ITS so I can get on during work but less little rambling updates.


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## nanashi7

The BOYS love that coconut hideaway I've been talking about. 3/4 love to pile in. Remus even tried to climb in.


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## nanashi7

The Girls love to pile up together. I think there are about six of them on that platform. The rest like the hanging bed if they get tucked in


----------



## Timberlee Fields

How are the girls right now? May be getting my two new ones this weekend. Are they a handful?


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## nanashi7

Girls certainly tend to be more of a handful than the boys, just because they are so active and seem to have a special sense of how to escape.


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## Timberlee Fields

I was able to put Bambi in the cage. She cannot in any way fit through the bars. (Yay!) hopefully having the extra girls will make her more playful and outgoing. Your sure my cage will be adequate as long as for the most part all they do is sleep in it? (I do have the monthly doctors appointment and such because of the pregnancy, have to walk the dog, ect.) 


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## nanashi7

More than just sleeping -- it's plenty of space for three rats to live comfortably. I used a cage calculator, and they have 2 cubic foot each. Just make sure to have two water bottles, two food bowls, plenty of places to hide, play, sleep, etc.


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## nanashi7

Zurfaces, should I buy two water bottles for the transport (one for boy cage, one for girl cage)? I forgot to ask. If you have a list of things you'd like, I can work on that. I just don't know 
Normally I provide my rats with food, water, ice, a hide, and a chew for transport.


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## zurfaces

The cage I'm using has built in water bowls they sit in the shelf which I put low to the floor. So no they don't need water bottles. I might even bring mine just in case. I'm having a fellow rat lover take my girls for the week because one has a minor respiratory infection (she has lung scaring from the pet store) and needs meds twice a day. I'll be taking them to her and she said she will be using her own cages she does rescue work so she has a ton of spare cages. So I might be able to bring my own bottles. If you want to give them some cardboard boxes and let them get it smelling like them that'd be good. My cage is roughly the size of a bin cage so nothing too large. I also like giving them blankets to burrow in so if you want to bring some smelly fleece too that'd be good. We have ac so no worries about over heating. 

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## nanashi7

I have an old blanket that Caius destroyed when nesting that can be cut up, and will make sure to put them on spare fleece to send with them -- then, there would be enough to send into individual homes too.


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## Daniel

I am wondering zurfaces, how long after getting them do you want me to pick up my two? That day (probably not), the next day, etc. I am in Beavercreek, so I wouldn't mind driving to either your place or some place near. But of course I will have to have a few days warning.


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## nanashi7

Daniel said:


> I am wondering zurfaces, how long after getting them do you want me to pick up my two? That day (probably not), the next day, etc. I am in Beavercreek, so I wouldn't mind driving to either your place or some place near. But of course I will have to have a few days warning.


I think she wanted you guys to meet on the 7th.


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## nanashi7

Haha Circe has decided where she wants to sleep; she got under the folds of the towel and is quite happy with her new cool hang out -- as if I didn't provide enough hidey places and tunnels :/


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## nanashi7

Another useless observation. Some of the colored rats have white around their mouth/chin area making it look like they're smiling. I still don't have my bloody SD card back but Eos was one of them and it made me insanely happy to see it.


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## nanashi7

Peony is by far the top-rat in our pet-rat class, followed by her brothers Apollo and Elias. They are the best at coming to greet me and accepting pets. Apollo and Peony love to sit on my shoulder and brux.
View attachment 70402
Here's little Peony giving me kisses. Sorry for the mess of hair, I'm on vacation! You can also see how they've grown, even just by her little head.
Elias prefers to sit on top my head
Apollo usually is chilling out in my bosom and having fun. Won't be posting pictures of that, your welcome.
Demetria and Kairos are the explorers and escape artists, which is probably because they look inherently innocent to me.
Circe has unfortunately gone back in her shell again -- she got super attached to my boyfriend, so it rats are like birds she's a man's girl. Otherwise I think she just requires constant positive reinforcement. She will cross open spaces like a little meerkat.
Chara is still a fluff ball so I really have no clue what her fur could be. She prefers digging to playing, so usually hangs out in the dig box and cuddles.
Eos is also adorable, but don't stare her down. She likes to hide in my pocket.
Milo (previously Athena) still has the curious, throw-caution-to-the-wind personality. She stared down a German Shephard today until determining it wasn't worth her interest.

Agh if you don't like the root of your hair groomed these are not the rats for you. It gives me cchills. I'm trying to type here, rittens.
Elias in particular tries to be sweet but usually end in nippy grooming.

Athena and Persephone are almost impossible to tell apart without them standing still. I believe this one to be Athena. She is reserved, and bullied a bit by the others. She enjoys being rescued from them and cuddles.

I think that's everyone other than Echo, Persephone, and Artemis. I can brag about them on my own time


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## nanashi7

To clarify, we are still group free-ranging until Sunday evening. They are living separately though. 

Nobody has nursed once I refilled food bowls -- It's harder to keep the girl's full than the boys, obviously. 

Apollo is grooming my hands so I take that as it being time to stop.


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## nanashi7

What I learned today: don't try to wrestle one rat (Kairos) unless you want mobbed by eight more. Elias was smart enough to go to the source - my face!


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## zurfaces

I would want you to pick them up when I come back home if you don't mind inbox me your phone number and I'll text you so you have mine. Also I'll pm Auvreathem my number so I can touch base with her(?). 

We will meet at a pre arranged location(the greene?) I'll call you both when I'm about an hr away and then again when im 30 minutes out. We will meet at the preplanned location and that's that. I still don't know the payment plan I'd rather not handle the monies I'd like to have everything paid for in advance so I know you're both serious. Auvreathem is borrowing one of my cages. I'll send you both home with the stuff given to me by nanashi try to divide it up as best as possible. 


Nanashi my boys that I reserved then unreserved has someone else taken them? Also can you pm me your number so we can figure out where to meet and all that. I'm thinking bowling green? I don't know the area though but if their js a gas station right off the highway that would be best for me. 

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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> I would want you to pick them up when I come back home if you don't mind inbox me your phone number and I'll text you so you have mine. Also I'll pm Auvreathem my number so I can touch base with her(?).
> 
> We will meet at a pre arranged location(the greene?) I'll call you both when I'm about an hr away and then again when im 30 minutes out. We will meet at the preplanned location and that's that. I still don't know the payment plan I'd rather not handle the monies I'd like to have everything paid for in advance so I know you're both serious. Auvreathem is borrowing one of my cages. I'll send you both home with the stuff given to me by nanashi try to divide it up as best as possible.
> 
> 
> Nanashi my boys that I reserved then unreserved has someone else taken them? Also can you pm me your number so we can figure out where to meet and all that. I'm thinking bowling green? I don't know the area though but if their js a gas station right off the highway that would be best for me.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The Greene is fine. That is about 10 min away. I will PM you my number when we get closer to the date.


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## Auvreathem

Has anyone reserved peony? Maybe I'm just going rat crazy but I want her badly. So cute ;_;


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## nanashi7

The boys are still available. There is a Speedway and I think a BP right off i-75, but if there is another exit that you'd like to meet att just let me know.


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## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> Has anyone reserved peony? Maybe I'm just going rat crazy but I want her badly. So cute ;_;
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Peony was unreserved recently. She looks JUST like Chara, except for their fur types and Peony has a back spot.


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## nanashi7

These rats are getting so spoiled! 
The girls were all in a cuddle-pile when I came home. Peony being the darling that she is quickly came to the door. I was just trying to refill the food bowl that they tipped _again_, but Peony was being such a sweetheart I took her out for some loving. That sparked the girls to come clambering out to see me -- we now have 9 girls wrestling up top. Not to leave the boys unloved, I went to the bottom level and gave them a tiny bit of millet. The boys were all piled in that coconut napping again, but a few were looking at me so I gave everyone a few pats to which, contented, they went back to sleep.
Noticing that I was leaving the room everyone stood at the bars of their cage expecting free range time! They are so cute, but a whole lot of work. 

The girls have taken to their hammock and an overturned basket for naptime, while the boys have now taken to irnoring their hammocks and sleeping in a pile in the coconut. Apollo is the odd one out in that he sleeps ATOP (not in) the triangle bird's nest. I take it he likes to balance.


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## Auvreathem

nanashi7 said:


> Peony was unreserved recently. She looks JUST like Chara, except for their fur types and Peony has a back spot.


I know you said you were only adopting out pairs but would it be okay if I snagged peony also? Her coat is so beautiful


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## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> I know you said you were only adopting out pairs but would it be okay if I snagged peony also? Her coat is so beautiful
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Of course -- what I meant with pairs is I didn't want rats to be going to single-rat homes, since I believe they need friends


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## nanashi7

Haha the rats seem to LOVE meeting new people, going absolutely obsessive when my boyfriend comes to visit. There are still the shy rats, but they don't seem adverse to attention so I can only hope it's a personality trait as opposed to failure to socialize. We had to make the girl's feed bowl into one of those covered food bowls. They seem to want to sleep in it :|
I tried to get playtime pictures, but didn't really get any good ones. As always, tomorrow I will try to get individual shots of everyone and one demonstrating their size. Since school is starting back up, no one can help me Monday thus it'll probably be one pic per baby as best I can. I'll be moving next week unfortunately but I'm thinking this may actually help the babies what with the car ride and new environments. Remus has always loved change personally so here's hoping. When I move, I'll get better pictures up of them.
I'm really hoping since they're about 5 weeks their coats are gonna stay this way because it is so interesting!


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## Daniel

Tux had a molt spot on the back of his head that came in at about 6 weeks but was gone by about 8 weeks. (it was a medium brown on his greyish-black fur) Their coats don't seem to be done until at least 2 months.


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## nanashi7

Darn their fur is so cool and their coloration is so unique.


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## nanashi7

Playtime pictures: 
http://i.imgur.com/QF3uTnoh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rVsu6zKh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xZmsho5h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45LMpoNh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wtE4xXBh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gQuYZChh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2sQyH6th.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NHfIKrIh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ew6XPF5h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jb2kvoPh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kroUea7h.jpg


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## nanashi7

Girls have been picking on momma poor baby  They are really energetic and she is more reserved so for the most part almost everyone is mobbing mommy. Some don't participate, but poor Caius usually has Peony on her back at the least (and yes, literally).
Today we free range in two separate groups so I hope this helps them socialize well. I've got a sunburn so this is about to become very interesting.


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## zurfaces

Who is the cutie next to the feet? Soooo adorable!

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## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> Who is the cutie next to the feet? Soooo adorable!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I believe that is Elias


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## nanashi7

Today's pics: the girls! I've got some more, but they're on the SD card so I'm waiting for the boys to get the pictures uploaded. Part of the reason I enjoy the gender split is because I can only ever have 10 rats on me now!
http://i.imgur.com/7olz42K.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SShXyBQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r2m7Sit.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kVKYDcb.jpg Persephone


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## nanashi7

Boy! Males picked up their activity level once we got into the free range area! They were a _little_ easier to photograph since they at least were interested in the granola (Special K low-fat). I must say Remus is a very tolerant daddy as he is being swarmed by the babies. I called out a warning to him to make sure he didn't get upset and he just stood on his two legs, two babies on his back two on his neck and just looked at me pitifully. He's pinning them and showing them they can't be mean.
If anyone paints their nails, the girls went crazy trying to eat it off (didn't let them).
Here are their pics and then the girls beneath:
Milo + Remus: http://i.imgur.com/lnlqvHDh.jpg
Kairos on my shoulder: http://i.imgur.com/8NztMwnh.jpg
Kairos: http://i.imgur.com/LrrQGhFh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qaL8DSLh.jpg
Elias + Remus: http://i.imgur.com/msFLP07h.jpg
Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/rLw6VR7h.jpg
Kairos + Milo: http://i.imgur.com/zqQ8d4Xh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UH7wVumh.jpg
Elias on my shoulder: http://i.imgur.com/1Q8sDJ1h.jpg
Milo: http://i.imgur.com/XHn6dIMh.jpg
Elias + Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/GgxsDwmh.jpg
Apollo climbing down: http://i.imgur.com/cVHMA4Ah.jpg

Circe the cuddle bug: http://i.imgur.com/DybcZKKh.jpg
Next to a penny: http://i.imgur.com/dMHD53Hh.jpg
Lots of rats: http://i.imgur.com/bO7Iq9gh.jpg
Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/HHoy4yKh.jpg
Athena: http://i.imgur.com/eknE3Yrh.jpg


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## nanashi7

Oh I forgot; Kale is a big hit!


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## zurfaces

Oh man he is too cute to handle!!! OH GOD I WANT HIM!!


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## nanashi7

He's still available if when the time comes you still want to take a rat. 
This is also Elias: http://i.imgur.com/2sQyH6th.jpg
Can you see what his passion is in life?


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## zurfaces

Is he the licky one or was that milo? 

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## nanashi7

Almost all the babies will lick you thanks to learning from Momma, but Elias and Peony are the top two.


----------



## zurfaces

Oh god you're making this sooo hard lol. 

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## nanashi7

haha no pressure just go for whats best for you and your ratties


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## nanashi7

Free-ranging the girls (and dad - he was pouty). Here're their pictures. Of course, around 6:45pm the boyos should be added below. Now the pictures are awful. I thought about just taking a video, but didn't know if everyone could access that. Obviously the markings haven't really changed.
First, waking up the girls: http://i.imgur.com/o0NR7gSh.jpg Peony needs no waking up, as she is always at the door and ready to go.
Peony: http://i.imgur.com/5TyTJ46h.jpg
Athena: http://i.imgur.com/di033EDh.jpg
Echo: http://i.imgur.com/TA4NDgzh.jpg
Chara: http://i.imgur.com/UveXCYhh.jpg
Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/7SRE3Y3h.jpg
Circe: http://i.imgur.com/hXQJiAoh.jpg
Pause to re-count rats: http://i.imgur.com/aD1iCP8h.jpg
Eros: http://i.imgur.com/g6vO0Kuh.jpg
Demetria (not white!) http://i.imgur.com/LGGUTNhh.jpg
Persephone: http://i.imgur.com/H9yEcbUh.jpg


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## nanashi7

Peony is a little brat for attention! I never noticed it before, but as she was climbing up my chest she shoved poor Echo down! As if I didn't already have five rats on my shoulders and could fit more.
Chara is gaining her confidence, she's wrestling mom and dad! She's currently sitting on my arm while I1 type.
Eos (NOT Eros....) just managed to hold onto the door frame and shimmy up about three feet! Watch out for her! haha

Meanwhile Athena is .wrecking my box. Dang. She made the holes bigger that were for ventilation and now fit rats. 
Circe is scaling the laptop screen.

I've been wrestling with the babies some it's fun but they are so fast!
Ow Chara has started grooming but her teeth are so dang sharp it hurts
Demetria is now on the screen, Athena is on my head.
Peony is trying to dig under the carpet and find a way out
Circe I believe is demonstrating rat giggles -- it isn't bruxing, a bit more like chirping but still similar to bruxing!
Note to potential adopters: remove jewelry before playing.
haha has anyone seen rats bound? I think it has to be the cutest thing out there.
My god the babies are about momma's size they're abusing her poor thing. I actually keep mistaking them for the adults (well, the ones that look like them) Boy on the 7th I'm going to have to find out how to immerse babies you've raised.

Sorry for any typos, amybe you can tell this is a live feed!


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## nanashi7

Woah. The boys aren't the brightest bunch, or perhaps they're already lazy. I somehow managed to not latch the cage door during free range, leaving the males locked in my room not their cage! Now, my room is rat proofed just annoying to free range in so no concerns there. HOWEVER. None of the boys bothered to leave the cage. Hm. In my haste to count th boys, I retrieved them without pictures so any info on them will come before pictures.


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## nanashi7

Boys sure have found that drive to explore and energy! They are considerably more interested in TRUE wrestling than the girls (you can see they are trying to WIN something). There are half as many rats out right now so it is easier to keep track! Ick I think they've begun learning how to mark :/ Boys will be boys.


Alright. Camera batteries dying, tried to get pics of everyone!
Kairos decides last-minute he doesn't want to get a picture taken: http://i.imgur.com/YWDrx2P.jpg But he lets me try again: http://i.imgur.com/mKQgmTg.jpg

Elias: http://i.imgur.com/T33X3eZ.jpg He has a back spot but his amazing fur makes it disappear in certain angles or lighting: http://i.imgur.com/KzVuoIM.jpg

Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/wyK7hXK.jpg

Milo: http://i.imgur.com/KGtye8U.jpg


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## nanashi7

Apollo or Milo was bruxing on my shoulder until the other decided to bite them :/ Milo definitely is bruxing on my cranium.


----------



## nanashi7

I kid you not, I just saw a rat train. Remus took off with bully Kairos in pursuit, who grabbed his tail and hung on. Then Elias attached himself. Finally on goes Milo in a dash around the room. Kairos isn't a bully so much as energetic with rat boys.
Me and apollo sat here cuddling and watching them (lately the house has been a bit cooler, which I've kept to since I figure being a rat in a cage on warm fabric bedding is different to being a human sitting around in pjs.

Elias loves tangling up in long hair. I though he was getting stuck so I took half of my hair up and off him and he went and hid on the other half.

Also they shredded SOMETHING up last night/today and I can't for the life of me find what. It looks like foam padding, I can only hope it isn't from their $15 Frog!


----------



## nanashi7

Ick. Only the boys seem to have this interest, but much like human children they freeze and poop. Not bad -- until they turn around to insepct their handiwork...


----------



## Daniel

He's saying: "Mommy! Don't impale me on your spikes!"

Didn't notice he has so much white on his head, he's even cuter than I realized.

He's ended up looking alot like Tux as I feared, but he's got more white on his chin and plus he has the high white spot on his face..not to mention he is dumbo and Tux isn;t.


----------



## Daniel

Looks like my boy Kairos is the only boy who ended up being a dumbo. Strange that most of them looked dumbo for the first few weeks.


----------



## nanashi7

Well, it certainly didn't help that myself and the vet mistook one of the dumbo girls for being a male, leaving Milo as a chick. But I really think it is odd that so many definitely looked dumbo one week but weren't. And Kairos still has the white banding on his back, if yours does not (http://i.imgur.com/mKQgmTg.jpg on each side)


----------



## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Well, it certainly didn't help that myself and the vet mistook one of the dumbo girls for being a male, leaving Milo as a chick. But I really think it is odd that so many definitely looked dumbo one week but weren't. And Kairos still has the white banding on his back, if yours does not (http://i.imgur.com/mKQgmTg.jpg on each side)


Oh dont worry, Im getting them both either way. From the side he doesnt really look like him. I'll have to post pics of my boys in the meet my rats section just so you can see what I mean. Parsley is a black hood so there are no problems there.


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## nanashi7

One of the requirements I made when I got my rats were two that looked nothing alike -- I think that's why no breeder would respond to me. Even the awful one I went to was like, "dumbo? male? female? colored? eyes?" and I said I wanted two same-sex recently weaned rats that looked distinct. Haha I'm told that's awful. 
Honestly, just about any animal out there pulls at my heart strings so I have low standards. Almost got some fish just because they were cute. It was worse when I lived in the south and you could catch wild reptiles and amphibians with ease -- or mammals, as I once kept a momma possom hidden in our barn.

Anywhere. Where I was going with is I do worry about similar looking rats. I swear the most frustrating part of my day is telling Persephone and Athena apart.


----------



## nanashi7

Kairos is so tolerant. This is weird to say but I was trying to blow in Elias face because he was licking my face and it was getting excessive. I went to stick my tongue out at him and accidently licked Kairos in the ear. He looked at me and then just kept walking with Remus.
As for Apollo, I advise you to never come home sweaty as he keeps trying climb up my armpit hole.


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## nanashi7

Ugh I'm not sure if this is normally a complaint but Elias has spent that last ten minutes just licking me...

Daniel, Kairos likes nose cleanings too. Ugh.


----------



## zurfaces

Nanashi I love your rat stories lmao!

Oh little Elias I want you sooo bad little cutie! 

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## nanashi7

Haha with as many rats as I spent time with, weird things are bound to happen.
It's funny to compare my reaction to things now as to two almost three months ago wen i got my rats. I don't even think twice when a rat is up my skirts, and I realized today I subconsciously already am a trained rat mama -- holding still when Milo decided to scale my full 5'6'' height up my clothes, checking all along the door before opening or closing it lol. I'm even on their rattie schedule for food!


----------



## nanashi7

The girls tore through their plastic shelf last night, ao their cage is a bit lacking at present.

I've been putting off saying this, but I think something is wrong with Circe. I will likely be keeping her. Of the girls, she is the least active and least responding rat. She often sits still and just stares, meaning she is easy to move around and pet and cuddle but I worry that something is seriously wrong. She does not respond. She is often sitting alone.


----------



## zurfaces

Aww poor girl. Is she red eyed or does her head look funny?

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## nanashi7

I believe she may have ruby eyes -- I think most of the grey babies do, just because I've caught them head-swaying. It's really hard to tell for me though, since I try to avoid shining lights in their eyes and it doesn't seem to show on some angles. But it's more than just her eyes; I can hold her to my face and speak to her, blow on her, pet her, whatever, and she does not respond in the least. It's so sad. She spends almost the entire hour of free range standing stock still on my shoulder. I thought she was injured at first but she doesn't show any signs of pain when I prod her about.


----------



## Daniel

Could it just be stress? Maybe she feels overwhelmed by the all the other rats. Is she submissive toward the others? 

See how she feels once the Dayton rats move out.


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## nanashi7

She doesn't interact with the others, so I couldn't say if she is submissive or not. She is often alone. She is healthy weight and does drink but is the only one in he bunch that won't share the food bowl or water bowl, but instead will wander off. Every other ra in the cage is fine with sharing.

I'm thinking if she is a bit stressed and what not, I will house her and daddy alone together. He's enough of a sweetheart.


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## nanashi7

Today was a stressful day, starting with being late with work and ending with needing a jump thanks to leaving my lights on. What better way to chip up than buy rat toys ? So, the girls have a new rope perch and LOVE~ it. They boys got a lava perch, and are eyeing the bright pink invader with caution lol.


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## nanashi7

I couldn't free range today, I apologize. Due to allergies flaring up, the girls managing to break their shelf, and payday coming early, today became cage cleaning day.Which meant I already invested 2 hours into them, needing another 3 hours minimum for free range. On top of that I already mentioned my bad day. 

Now, the babies still get their twice daily cuddles and handling. Mostly because I love coming home and petting them  I have bad anxiety and made the decision to attempt to manage it without meds; I can't express the utter relaxation I feel when I nuzzle up to the rats or just pet them softly. When they slowly wake up, ratty yawn, and come to see if I have treats... wonderful wonderful 

They are munching out to some kale right now; Chara was so adorable because she stood up on two legs to monitor the greens' competition. With one ratty paw she sneakily grabbed a piece and brought it to her mouth to eat. Like a little human she was! I'm going to put the water bowl back in their cage because they keep draining the water bottle for moisture to wash their faces. Little raccoons they are. 
They got a cage redesign today and they seem to love it. It requires lots of balancing and jumping (don't worry, every jump has a "safety net". I'm trying to figure out how people use old bras as hammocks so I can spruce up their cage some.
Circe has been doing better. I think she sort of sensed I was getting pessimistic with her, as today for the first time she came up to lick and groom me while I was fussing in the cage. She took some kale and curled up in their food bowl (it's one of those covered bird feeders).

I'll be moving soon. I will be making it as less-stressful as possible; I don't have a bunch of stuff to move, most of my possessions are books. They will be going last to the apartment. Unfortunately, the apartment allows smoking so I am going to have to figure out what that means for my rats. I hope this also serves as an opportunity to ensure them going home to you guys will also be low-stress. I also won't be introducing Iris (the rescue rat in quarantine) until after they've gone home. She will, however, be moved into the apartment once the third week has passed and may be playing with the parent rats if she is doing well and it seems agreeable.


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## nanashi7

Oh! And the boys! Never forgotten! My sister just got the same cage as I, and may very well be donating her old cage for me (she is using it for her rabbits at night). That would mean the girls would get the full (albeit a bit empty/boring) FF and the boys get the modified guinea cage remus previously resided in. It's a bit better space-wise when you consider the vertical space wasted when the cages are split and the toys divided. Iris would be moved to the old rabbit cage.


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## nanashi7

I just realized we are just 9 days away from them going home! That's pretty weird to imagine. I hope you guys will keep me updated on their names, how they look, and how they are in general  It'll be a bit odd having less fuzzies, but I certainly won't be complaining.
I misplaced my phone, so any of you with my cell number should text my boyfriend's. Pretty sure I packed it away somewhere which is pretty crappy :/

If Zurfaces decides to get the two boys (Elias + Milo), the only babies left should be:
Demetria (female): http://i.imgur.com/LGGUTNhh.jpg and Athena (female): http://i.imgur.com/di033EDh.jpg
Just trying to keep on my records 

I'll be keeping Persephone, Artemis, and Echo for myself.
My boyfriend got really upset when I was talking about poor Circe -- she has had the worst luck of the rats as for getting injured (he once almost sat on her, I caught her toes in the cage before) and said "I'll keep her!". Well, he lives in the dorms so what this mean is actually _I'll_ be keeping her. Which is fine, because I wouldn't send a rat I suspect having problems to an unwitting new home. I have to make a mass vet trip, and have been struggling to arrange that with time and distance. When I do, Circe, the new rat Iris, and my parakeet Whisper (see the problem?) will all be going.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I just realized we are just 9 days away from them going home! That's pretty weird to imagine. I hope you guys will keep me updated on their names, how they look, and how they are in general  It'll be a bit odd having less fuzzies, but I certainly won't be complaining.
> I misplaced my phone, so any of you with my cell number should text my boyfriend's. Pretty sure I packed it away somewhere which is pretty crappy :/
> 
> If Zurfaces decides to get the two boys (Elias + Milo), the only babies left should be:
> Demetria (female): http://i.imgur.com/LGGUTNhh.jpg and Athena (female): http://i.imgur.com/di033EDh.jpg
> Just trying to keep on my records
> 
> I'll be keeping Persephone, Artemis, and Echo for myself.
> My boyfriend got really upset when I was talking about poor Circe -- she has had the worst luck of the rats as for getting injured (he once almost sat on her, I caught her toes in the cage before) and said "I'll keep her!". Well, he lives in the dorms so what this mean is actually _I'll_ be keeping her. Which is fine, because I wouldn't send a rat I suspect having problems to an unwitting new home. I have to make a mass vet trip, and have been struggling to arrange that with time and distance. When I do, Circe, the new rat Iris, and my parakeet Whisper (see the problem?) will all be going.


Urgh that shot of Demetria has me tempted to get a girl for the first time in awhile...but I can't - she'd be alone at first, and then I'd have to spay her which is too much money for me at the moment.

Looking forward to the day! They're going to be split between cages at first (but the brothers will be together) but at some point in Sep I will have a new cage for them to all be together in.


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## nanashi7

I had little rat momma separation anxiety dreams last night, so I know it must be getting close; I have no clue how breeders do this.
I've been sort of randomly showing people in school the pictures of baby rats available to see if anyone is interested in the last two. I actually was going to post a flyer at this mom-and-pop pet shop I found, but I chickened out at the last minute. I just feel weird explaining the needs requirements and having people think I'm crazy -- "rats don't even GO to vets, do they?" is one question I've been finding it hard to deal with.

My boyfriend took over free ranging last night to give me a break. The boys were great, but have a tendency to go for your feet when walking and love to perch atop your head; they weren't at all stressed with having a new person their with us. He thinks the girls were just too tuckered out when he got to them, but it was only 11 o'clock and they are usually up and going. Maybe the girls are just cuddly to boys; I wasn't actually present for this one as my bed time is about 11 haha. He said he ended it about 45 minutes in because he had two rats in his pocket, 5 laying in his lap and the last two babies were sleeping on his shoulder.


----------



## Timberlee Fields

I wish I could take Demetria and Athena. /:


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## nanashi7

Too bad you are so far


----------



## zurfaces

What are the two remaining girls personalities? 

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## nanashi7

Both are a bit shy at first, a bit reserved.
Demetria can get very hyper and riled up. She is the one I consistently can play with hand-wrestling. Athena is much more suited for laying around in your lap, she is warming up to getting return attention. She does come to the cage door to greet me.


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## nanashi7

Because my philosophy is to be transparent, when I came home today mom and dad rat seemed to be a bit snuffly. I really don't believe it to be a URI, and none of the babies snuffed either, but I thought I would report it along. 
I have not had rats before so I am no expert, but today when I opened my door the smell of "small animals" hit me pretty hard so I think it is my lapse in cleaning as opposed to anything else. I immediately cleaned the cage and will check Remus and Caius later for further signs of snuffles. This is what you get for being lazy, bad Miranda! :/


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## nanashi7

Oh, and if the parents are still stuffly tonight I will be putting them in a temporary bin cage in the basement as a form of quarantine.


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## nanashi7

Rat phoned random babies and parents. No discernible odd sounds or labored breathing.


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## Daniel

Your huntch is probably right - it's probably just the dirtiness. My rats get sniffly over bedding condition/changes all the time.


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## nanashi7

All rats are in great condition, now three hours later. I made a makeshift hammock out of spare fleece -- literally didn't even cut it, just tied it on the bars. They are busy running along it and destroying it.

UGH. I can never write my thoughts right on the first try. Girls have the fleece hammock, it runs along the width of their cage at a slight elevation.
The boys got a cage redesign today, and a new hammock.

It seems a more effective use of the space to add these things in.

I mentioned to Zurfaces, but in case you guys didn't catch it I will be sending pieces of fleece home with them on the 7th. They may be useless, or smelly, or silly, but I just thought it would provide a bit of comfort with the big change. These are scraps I either use for stuffing in a bed, or like the current piece drape as a hammock. I also use big pieces to cover their cages against light. I'm working on boxes, but they either get soiled or chewed up within two days :/ Probably just throw some in the night before. Don't think these will be divisible.

The girls have also created a makeshift litter pan, pooping only in one corner.


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## Auvreathem

Hate to be a pain but could you post some new pictures of Eos, Chara, and Peony? I'm dying to see them


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## Daniel

N7, you did say that you use Regal Rat with your rats right? I ask this because that same Saturday is going to be the first day of me using it, and I'd like to have at least 2 of them moved over to it already. I was going to move my boys over to it today, but I was a little short on cash because the only one PetSmart had on hand was the big bag.


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## Daniel

Auvreathem said:


> Hate to be a pain but could you post some new pictures of Eos, Chara, and Peony? I'm dying to see them
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes. Updated rattie pics !


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## nanashi7

Yes, I use Regal Rat and add protein in via dog kibble. They then get plenty of treats.
I guess I have been a bit lax on the photographing! Mainly, they are almost impossible to stand still. They were a bit more comfortable to get them with a little bribery of seed (if you guys are comfortable using parakeet seed as treats, I can send some tiny baggies of it with thems you guys can decide. I love Nutri Berries. Peony only escaped eight times...
I'm sure you guys can identify your rats by now, but I'll do my best to label them. I tried to get everyone, at least of your guys's. The full album is available here: http://imgur.com/a/Cqwtw As always, if thses cutenesses don't suffice, let me know and I will pull them aside for a picture session.

http://i.imgur.com/fqCC6cth.jpg Eos misunderstood the "come here darling" command. She darts off...http://i.imgur.com/gbNuEZuh.jpg
Peony's turn: http://i.imgur.com/KRz56Mqh.jpg She is getting a second tiny spot in, barely discernible: http://i.imgur.com/NB1WnS5h.jpg
I think this is Chara and Echo(?): http://i.imgur.com/B7L11TCh.jpg Chara darts of, Eos joins in: http://i.imgur.com/pe6VNijh.jpg (See my makeshift hammock?)
Chara. http://i.imgur.com/1N1hlWZh.jpg Chara. http://i.imgur.com/T0HcDA4h.jpg Chara stand still! http://i.imgur.com/0Z9n2Pkh.jpg
Athena and Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/KzSYzCah.jpg
Eos, Athena, Chara and Mommy getting a drink: http://i.imgur.com/SHmTNrAh.jpg


Elias: http://i.imgur.com/wZiDjfph.jpg
Couldn't find a baby. A tail?! http://i.imgur.com/BUWEARsh.jpg
Oh that's not a face: http://i.imgur.com/373txAJh.jpg Oh! Kairos!
Apollo: (maybe the best picture ever showing his mask?) http://i.imgur.com/lPP4vf0h.jpg
Milo. http://i.imgur.com/XPChlXdh.jpg Milo...http://i.imgur.com/locDzLah.jpg Milo! http://i.imgur.com/hp7yNJYh.jpg
Elias and Milo? http://i.imgur.com/LupMJ25h.jpg
Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/WdvUMiHh.jpg


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Yes, I use Regal Rat and add protein in via dog kibble. They then get plenty of treats.
> I guess I have been a bit lax on the photographing! Mainly, they are almost impossible to stand still. They were a bit more comfortable to get them with a little bribery of seed (if you guys are comfortable using parakeet seed as treats, I can send some tiny baggies of it with thems you guys can decide. I love Nutri Berries. Peony only escaped eight times...
> I'm sure you guys can identify your rats by now, but I'll do my best to label them. I tried to get everyone, at least of your guys's. The full album is available here: http://imgur.com/a/Cqwtw As always, if thses cutenesses don't suffice, let me know and I will pull them aside for a picture session.
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/fqCC6cth.jpg Eos misunderstood the "come here darling" command. She darts off...http://i.imgur.com/gbNuEZuh.jpg
> Peony's turn: http://i.imgur.com/KRz56Mqh.jpg She is getting a second tiny spot in, barely discernible: http://i.imgur.com/NB1WnS5h.jpg
> I think this is Chara and Echo(?): http://i.imgur.com/B7L11TCh.jpg Chara darts of, Eos joins in: http://i.imgur.com/pe6VNijh.jpg (See my makeshift hammock?)
> Chara. http://i.imgur.com/1N1hlWZh.jpg Chara. http://i.imgur.com/T0HcDA4h.jpg Chara stand still! http://i.imgur.com/0Z9n2Pkh.jpg
> Athena and Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/KzSYzCah.jpg
> Eos, Athena, Chara and Mommy getting a drink: http://i.imgur.com/SHmTNrAh.jpg
> 
> 
> Elias: http://i.imgur.com/wZiDjfph.jpg
> Couldn't find a baby. A tail?! http://i.imgur.com/BUWEARsh.jpg
> Oh that's not a face: http://i.imgur.com/373txAJh.jpg Oh! Kairos!
> Apollo: (maybe the best picture ever showing his mask?) http://i.imgur.com/lPP4vf0h.jpg
> Milo. http://i.imgur.com/XPChlXdh.jpg Milo...http://i.imgur.com/locDzLah.jpg Milo! http://i.imgur.com/hp7yNJYh.jpg
> Elias and Milo? http://i.imgur.com/LupMJ25h.jpg
> Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/WdvUMiHh.jpg


Interesting. I see what looks like a couple of odd eyed (photo trick?) babies. Almost looks like Apollo is odd eyed?


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## nanashi7

I haven't noticed any odd-eyes. In fact, I haven't really seen any ruby eyes. I am kind of thinking if they are they must be really dark -- I don't remember Caius' standing out particularly, but now they are striking. I think mostly what you are seeing is just the flash of the camera -- it's a fairly cheap digital one that has either too much light or no light as the settings.


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## nanashi7

Here he is again, with the lights off and only flash. http://imgur.com/hy39DvR


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## Auvreathem

Thanks! They are just too cute. It looks like Chara is a dumbo for sure. Never had one! 


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## zurfaces

Nanashi I don't feel like burrowing through all the posts how much were you wanting for the babies ? I need to know so I can make sure my dayton folks knoe hoe much they owe me and so that I'll bring the proper amount of cash for you

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## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> Nanashi I don't feel like burrowing through all the posts how much were you wanting for the babies ? I need to know so I can make sure my dayton folks knoe hoe much they owe me and so that I'll bring the proper amount of cash for you
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It was $10, but I just put that there so it wouldn't be "free to good home" and then snake food. If you would like, I would think it quite fine for you to take the money from them as a transportation fee. I'm really not in it for money, I just want them to have a nice home.


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## nanashi7

Some of the more shy ones (Chara, for example) will need a bit more handling. She squeaked today when I pursued her to pet her. She did stop and let me cuddle her once I let her sniff my hand.
The others are not so shy, with Demetria coming up as I was chewing my food and taking it from within my mouth (without permission, mind you.) Thet now are under the impression my face is a magical food dispensary. Eos in particular enjoys my ear...
Imgur isnt working now and my camera died, so here are pics from the first ten minutes. charging it now for the boys turn. Photobucket irritates me, so feel free to ask me who is in a particular picture. Mind you, not everyone is pictured. I was just trying to get pictures of babies at play. http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/Nanashi_Mu/library/girls play


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## nanashi7

dang it the bloody link wont share it is % 20 play, no spaces, at the end...


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## nanashi7

Hah some of the girls are just sitting here watching Netflix with me. 
Ah! They climb so well! The grip the door frames, and Athena made it 4 foot up. I had my foot below her to catch her. Meanwhile, Persephone scaled my laptop cord up :/


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## nanashi7

We've had some poop problems today... 
I'm hoping it is dieet-related, but three babies have had poops partially dangling out of their bums and were clearly distressed at getting them out. Demetria, Athena, and I did not catch the third.

EDIT, I just caught Athena who still had it dangling from her bum. It appeared to be a piece of string. I managed to remove it entirely, but it caused her distress. Was it string? Was the distress from being pinned?


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## nanashi7

Got really into Mythbusters. Everything was quiet, no one was pestering me...Where had the babies gone?
View attachment 72378
See, that's what I get for thinking I could block something off and stop them from napping in the carrier tub. :|


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## nanashi7

Got really into Mythbusters. Everything was quiet, no one was pestering me...Where had the babies gone?
View attachment 72386
ee, that's what I get for thinking I could block something off and stop them from napping in the carrier tub. :| If you can't tell, that is everyone but Momma smashed between the tub and the wall. 9 babies...


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## nanashi7

Daniel, you were right. I looked super close (eye-to-eye) and Kairos DOES appear to have his right eye ruby, left eye black.
Edit: Wait. You said Apollo. His look black/black still. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/with/9641770510/


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## nanashi7

My camera died again. Either I am a dead-battery hoarder (unfortunately really quite plausible...) or their is an internal problem. I posted some photos (another image hosting site, since photobucket sucks and imgur won't work), as you can see. It was maybe the first two minutes.

All the rats genetical high whiteness is starting to show, creeping up their sides in dots or an uneven marking.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Daniel, you were right. I looked super close (eye-to-eye) and Kairos DOES appear to have his right eye ruby, left eye black.
> Edit: Wait. You said Apollo. His look black/black still.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/with/9641770510/


If they are, then that is a very very dark ruby. It's OK either way, I was just asking because of the pink/ruby vision problems (which is why they sway to see things, whereas I have never had my black eyed rats do that swaying),


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## nanashi7

Apollo is very hyper tonight, and has begun marking.

If you don't keep up with my other posts on the forum, Caius appears to be having some stress issues in regards to the cage and rittens with her. I may be transferring the males into a modded bird cage for a bit until Sunday, when at least two of them will be going home, to ease the stress on her. Here is it in the early incarnation : http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/N...3-07-13at1142_zpsa1b7938d.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4
That is Remus on the bottom. I believe it should be sufficient space for them, despite being unsuitable for adult rats -- it is *16.5" L X 11.8" W X 22" H* which amounts to 2.5 cubic feet. I am still awaiting feedback on the matter before deciding, but would probably do what I did before which is split every other day from bird cage to bin cage to bird cage...etc. Doing so would free the FF up for the 9 kits, herself, and I would leave Remus in with them. She is suffering weight loss and her fur appears to be being overgroomed and overmarked on by the babies.


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## nanashi7

Daniel said:


> If they are, then that is a very very dark ruby. It's OK either way, I was just asking because of the pink/ruby vision problems (which is why they sway to see things, whereas I have never had my black eyed rats do that swaying),


I've only observed swaying in the female gray rats thus far, if that helps. Caius who has ruby eyes does not sway.


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## nanashi7

Elias had to be pinned and powergroomed today, he was picking on Remus and bit too hard. I didn't know how else to convey this isn't allowed.


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## nanashi7

This is the cage brought straight out of storage and set down, with Milo in:http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9638722449/
Then Remus joined in: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9638721573/

Everyone is now investigating it. I just want to know if the four mini boys can live in it happily for a week, still getting free range out and I can put them in a 104L bin which ishttps://www.google.com/search?q=110+...F%3B1024%3B775 every other day


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## Daniel

That is similar to my big cage that Chocolate and Butterscotch are in. Mine is almost the same thing but with a flat roof and one more level, though it is a sky blue color. But the thing with mine is that the bars are thinner, and if I had chewing rats this could be a problem.


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## nanashi7

See, I am reluctant to use the bin cage. You may remember, but back when the kits were still essentially hairless Caius managed to escape it. Even if I patched up her escaped place, I believe the rats could escape. 
This is the cage with the males in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDe79hstYPc
Bit cramped, with toys and stuff. If I can convince my boyfriend, I think I am going to take a cockatiel cage I have, rebuild it, convert it to have levels, and use that. It will offer more space and horizontal bars. Unfortunately, he is getting a bit tired of building and unbuilding cages and putting in make shift levels :/


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## Daniel

I know you swear by bird toys, but do the boys like the hangy type? I stocked the smaller cage with some hanging bird toys and Parsley and Tux ignore them (I always tend to get boring rats...). I havent tried the perch type ones like in your vid though.


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## nanashi7

The petch one has been chewed on; I also got what is called a comfy perch which is a rope perch the rats love, and they love sticks put in corners. Some of the hanging toys are better than others, especially ones with bells or several different textures (sea shells, rope, string). What sort of toys do you get for yours? i prefer noisy colorful ones again with different textures, it sort of meets their drive to destroy things.


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## Daniel

The one I have in there now is a sort of half ball with three ropes dangling off of it and a bell in the middle..it hangs by a chain. I thought the bell would set them off but they don't care. I don't mind experimenting, but I also don't want for them all to flop out. If your boys like these kind of toys, I will leave it in.


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## nanashi7

I know it's a stereotyoicall phrase, but right now their favorite things include each other and anything that allows them to tunnel -- a dig boxm or anything with multiple entrances. They do play with the toys, but this is usually just pulling on it or ringing it. Those EcoTrition snak line of products, lava perches, and the natural stick perches are what they enjoy for chewing.
I usually focus more on setting up the cage itself to be fun, so promoting balancing, climbing, and jumping.


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## Timberlee Fields

I think the bird cage looks fine as a temporary home, nanashi. 


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## nanashi7

Timberlee Fields said:


> I think the bird cage looks fine as a temporary home, nanashi.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm modding an old cockatiel cage today, and think I might connect it with a makeshift tube to the bin cage. I'll post pictures later


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## nanashi7

View attachment 72530
View attachment 72538
View attachment 72546
View attachment 72554
View attachment 72562


Here we go, the new cage. *30" L X 15" W X 36.5" H are the dimensions. Appropriate for 4 rats  Picture order: left side, top half, most of cage, bottom half, right side. Sorry if you can't see much it was taken off a cellphone.
It has a main level dividing the middle. The boys seem quite happy in the new cage and I'm quite pleased with it.

Sorry it took so long, it took quite a while to clean it, build it, and decorate it.*


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## Timberlee Fields

Looks great!


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## nanashi7

Timberlee Fields said:


> Looks great!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks! There is no true test to the strength of one's relationship until you build something with power tools, so I think the rats and my boyfriend are all feeling a bit more amiable which is a wonderful side effect. The cage also trees up a lot of room so now I'm happier with the room arrangement as well.


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## Daniel

I have another question about the boys N7. I know you said they destroy things like the bird chews, but would you go so far as to call them 'chewers'? (ie destructive of cages, etc) This could be a problem since I have plastic cages, and if they are I am probably going to buy some wood chews or something similar.


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## nanashi7

Right now the cage they are in has a plastic bottom and they haven't cared about it. It could be that I have a surplus of chews in the cage but the boys don't seem to chew on more things than they are supposed to. For example, I draped an old blanket over their cage to reduce the sunlight coming in and it is still there and intact. The girls on the other hand are on the whole chewers and have chewed anything and everything they could reach on their cage -- including food bags, my key lanyard, fleece being pulled out to clean.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Right now the cage they are in has a plastic bottom and they haven't cared about it. It could be that I have a surplus of chews in the cage but the boys don't seem to chew on more things than they are supposed to. For example, I draped an old blanket over their cage to reduce the sunlight coming in and it is still there and intact. The girls on the other hand are on the whole chewers and have chewed anything and everything they could reach on their cage -- including food bags, my key lanyard, fleece being pulled out to clean.


Yup, that's about what I remember. My ex-gf's girl rats would destroy any jacket sleeve/blanket that got close enough for them to pull in the cage.


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## nanashi7

The boys do redecorate with fleece, though. They've taken all but the center level's piece down to the bottom level for a bit of a nest I guess.


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## nanashi7

I am going to ammend my chewing statement: during free range when we don't really have chews out, they have taken to gnawing my textbooks ._.'


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I am going to ammend my chewing statement: during free range when we don't really have chews out, they have taken to gnawing my textbooks ._.'


That's not a problem. Free range for my boys is just an old heavy blanket on my bed - sometimes they chew on it and it's not a bother. (hopefully I can get something like that ferret tunnel eventually).


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## nanashi7

I somehow misplaced my camera SD card. So I took pictures but I don't have any way to upload them. It might take a few hours to get the pictures up.

They still seem REALLY tiny for being 6 weeks. :/


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## nanashi7

Anyone mind if I give the rats a quick rinse? They seem to need it.

The more submissive are scent marking and during free range some has a nice tumble in the litter box. I've poo all over me from their paws so I'll either rinse them quick or give them a bowl to play with for the evening.


----------



## nanashi7

Apollo: http://i.imgur.com/38XlmwEh.jpg He's backspots coming in if you can see.
Elias: http://i.imgur.com/azixNaph.jpg He looks like his coll fur is losing the coolness.
Kairos: http://i.imgur.com/dU8Cb1Jh.jpg
Milo: http://i.imgur.com/zZp8tDZh.jpg

I apologize on the girls' quality...
Eos: http://i.imgur.com/Z13KFG5h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/bjjbcuMh.jpg Was trying to figure out who was bruxing on my shoulder and nibbling my ear
Chara, Athena? Circe: http://i.imgur.com/7IFgm1Vh.jpg
Peony and Persephone: http://i.imgur.com/xHhRIxwh.jpg
A lot of rats: http://i.imgur.com/W6uyjEnh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/gyB0sKTh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/XqrIX3sh.jpg
Peony: http://i.imgur.com/7ubE1oGh.jpg
Artemis: http://i.imgur.com/LqeTC1Ph.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kbn7klhh.jpg
Persephone and Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/lQeDZXch.jpg
Athena: http://i.imgur.com/mj0crJQh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kUWkEBih.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LX68yoHh.jpg
Chara: http://i.imgur.com/rJdD56Vh.jpg
Echo: http://i.imgur.com/vPNlFech.jpg http://i.imgur.com/4KiVy41h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xYeeSO0h.jpg
Can't tell, believe this is Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/gDSJsuth.jpg
Demetria: http://i.imgur.com/e42TTQSh.jpg
My toe, Persephone and Echo: http://i.imgur.com/wDxHl3Wh.jpg


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## nanashi7

I realise I am missing individual shots. If it is of a rat you want to see, let me know.


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## nanashi7

Dear god. I have been talking about how the rats have been scaling the door frame. Today Eos was 5 foot up. Buyer beware....


----------



## Daniel

I see the babies are still poopies. I was worried I might have to retrain them to not go outside the cage but it doesnt look like theyve learned not to yet! 

IMO it's hard to get them not to go outside until there at least 6-8 weeks, anyway.


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## nanashi7

They don't have access to their cage during free range, unfortunately. I have to tote them out into a rat proof space and that's where they are stuck until times up. Today everyone was out for 2 hours so there was no way that I wasn't going to get poops. Most of the babies had figured out how to poop only in one corner like mom and dad but the males in particular don't seem to care.

I used to let my adult rats free range in my room and just deal with them hiding under furniture but then there was no interaction going on, and I found they were trying hard to get to the birds which is much too risky.


----------



## nanashi7

Apollo seems to be the only rat struggling with balancing; often, I see him sit on his haunches like a well and proper rat and he usually topples over. Just throwing that out there.


----------



## nanashi7

The girls LOVE playing with water -- just put out a bowl and let them be. We did have a bit of a problem when one of the babies decided to hop in, toppling the bowl and spilling it onto the hammock the level below.


Found the male redecorating culprti: Apollo! He loves digging and pulling the bedding and fabric around to make nests. I'd think he wasn't a male if it wasn't for the equipment.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> The girls LOVE playing with water -- just put out a bowl and let them be. We did have a bit of a problem when one of the babies decided to hop in, toppling the bowl and spilling it onto the hammock the level below.
> 
> 
> Found the male redecorating culprti: Apollo! He loves digging and pulling the bedding and fabric around to make nests. I'd think he wasn't a male if it wasn't for the equipment.


How do the boys like water? When I saw your water idea, I went ahead and tried it with Tux and Parsley - they avoided the bowl and end up kicking alot of bedding into it.


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## nanashi7

Really about the same -- I think the first time I tried it the cage was still mixed genders. I was surprised because I hadn't ever introduced the parents to water, but before I even set down the bowl babies were swarming to see what I had and immediately went to play. Then the parents joined in to see the fuss.

If no one minded, I was going to spruce up the mischief this weekend with a bit of a bath which I honestly expect to go wonderful.

In other news, Remus alone has had a bit of porphyrin coming from one eye. I suspect it's sleepiness. I've decided to forego fleece as the main bedding and wam buying the laminate that peels and sticks. Fleece is just really impractical as the main bedding with this many rats and no one really being litter trained.
The quarantine rat seems to have a bit of a URI, but I am told that they don't pass among rats? Not that she's been around, and I've been following the quarantine procedures. She and Circe will be going to the vet this weekend, which has been the soonest my vet could see me.


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## nanashi7

Just a few pictures tonight. We had a death in the family so I was absent for most of the free-range time consoling my family members. I did not know the person all that well.
View attachment 73481
Here is the wonderful, loving side of grooming from the girls. Echo can be a sweetheart.
View attachment 73489
Here is the omg-get-off-my-face-no-not-my-eyes-ow-that-hurts side, courtesy of Peony and Chara.

Here's some pictures of the boys. http://imgur.com/a/ET4ff I tried to get them playing with water but they associate the ding of the camera with the flash which they aren't partial towards. The last picture is of their favorite toy apparently: the carrier bin, set on it's side. Here Kairos attempts a daring leap onto the roof only to discover the ceiling is in place. Not to be one-upped, Elias also tried.
Here is how they like to sit when they get bored. Part of the reason I try not to wear my hair up during free range. (Apollo/Kairos)
View attachment 73497


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## nanashi7

I don't know if it is due to temperament, numbers, or sheer timing but I find it a lot easier to handle the males -- getting out of the cage, putting back in, handling them randomly, etc.
I don't pay either group special attention -- in fact, the girl group is let out to roam for longer periods of time on average.

I will continue to handle the girls as often as can be. The more skittish females are luckily and perhaps noncoincidentally staying with me anyway.

In other news, Elias just turned around and ran straight into a door. He looked at me as if I did it. Kairos also mastered the art of jumping onto solid objects like walls to turn while running.


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## nanashi7

4 more days guys! 
Have you guys all spoken to Zurfaces/exchange contact information? I thought it would be fair if she wanted for the adoption fee go as a transportation fee; but if she isn't comfortable with this we should work something out as an adoption fee just to guarantee everyone shows up on the 7th to get their rats. I really don't want any money from this, so if she doesn't want to use money as a fee for transportation maybe we could donate to a local rescue or something and have proof of that as the adoption fee -- I know for example Yale Road Adoptables up in MI has a program that you can purchase hammocks for them. I don't know. It just feels weird to make money off a mistake when the money could be better used elsewhere. (Can anyone tell I overthink things?)

So far, I think we are meeting around 2pm (I'll double check my phone) which means you guys should be meeting at 4pm. I'll post here when the rats are passed on, or if you would rather my phone number.


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## Daniel

I would prefer to give the cash in hand to her, since otherwise I wouldn't be able to donate/paypal until the following Monday - I get my payday money after 12 on Saturdays, usually after the banks are closed. I'd really like to get my boys on Saturday  Good news there is that I bit the bullet and splurged on a new cage so everyone can be kept together! (and the GP cage can be used as a nice large hospital cage, and I can throw out the bird cage).

I have her contact info and will touch base with her later in the week. Meeting place is agreed to.


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## nanashi7

I just want to ensure Zurfaces is comfortable, as she will have a car full of rats.


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## Daniel

If you aren't interested in the money, then it seems most fair that zurfaces gets it, since she will have had to be taking care of the rats in a car for a couple hours. I've lost a rat from a car trip, so I know it is more easier said than done.


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## nanashi7

That's what I was thinking. Two hours is a long time, plus it is post-vacation and I am always tired after them.


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## Daniel

I have another behavior question about the boys - do any of them go for hammocks? I have a new one in the new cage, but like before, mine don't go for them and don't like to sit in it.


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## nanashi7

Occassionally I'll find Milo or Kairos in their hammock. They seem to prefer to sleep on lower levels, where there is bedding, or in their coconut hut thing. When they were in the other cage, they all loved to pile on in the tunnel hammock. Circle hanging bed type hammocks were used mostly as a litter box by the boys.
Your boys seem so lazy lol!

During the night, one of them decided to snip the hammock strings :/


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Your boys seem so lazy lol!


Yes, lazy, picky (Parsley - takes 1 nibble and drops about 85% of food) AND boring (no toys I have found that they like)! Let's hope some new blood will put a little kick in their steps.


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## nanashi7

Haha these boys run at such a high level I think they'll have no choice. 
Man, my rats will take EVERY piece of food from me whether they want it or not just so _they_ have it. The girls recently broke into my parakeet seed and had themselves a nice midnight snack -- leaving most of it to be cleaned up and trashed.

Have you tried leaving little bits of food in their hammock? Heck, my Remus was afraid of the tunnel at first so I picked him up and plopped him in. Took a day, but it is one of his favorite things now.


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## nanashi7

Apollo is the one chewing the hammocks, Elias is destroying the blanket. Spollo is very unhappy after being scolded, but is now chewing on the lava perch.


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## Daniel

I haven't tried food in there yet. They seem to dislike it because it isn't stable. 

If Apollo is chewing like that, I think I will get the GP like wood chews.


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## nanashi7

They still haven't chewed the plastic base, even after I accidentally showed them that it opens on the side. But they have taken up chewing with much gusto; Milo has been sitting inside his little wood house and gnawing away.


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## Daniel

Yeah, do tell if they show any signs of doing that. Pretty soon I will have a litter of mice on my hands as well to monitor and it would be bad timing if one of the boys starts to destroy the cage!


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## nanashi7

Daniel, are you meeting Zurfaces on Saturday? I thought it was the 7th this was happening, but double-checked my phone to find we are meeting on Sunday @ 2-3ish.


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## nanashi7

I don't know how free ranging will work. I picked up peel-and-stick vinyl flooring and am going to be attempting that alone. I'm not that handy so this will be quite interesting. I am hoping this will help with cleanliness as I can literally vacuum up poop and wipe up uring. I will be using fleece or old towels on the top half still.
Since cardboard doesn't survive in the cage, I picked up some plastic "mini stack bin"s as hideaways to send with them. I hope it is small enough for the travelling cage.

Remus was saddling up beside one of the babies when I got home (I think...he looked like he was hip-checking them, if you are a hockey fan) so I am going to see about putting him with with the males. I honestly hadn't seen him do this or anything aggressive before but he seems hyper or frantic today. It may be a result of the babies whoo are growing and becoming quite adapt at fighting (playing!).


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## nanashi7

Well, it only took me an hour. I am sweating something awful. They got a cage redecorate and now I think I'm going to try and buy more stuff for it -- depending on what happens this weekend, of course. If I end up keeping some males, I definitely will -- unless I have less females than I do now, then I might just divide the cage again and put their decorations in it.

I put the wheel in the female cage and hope they'll run off some of their energy. It seems to be working so far.
The males got extra bedding and some treats buried in it and they are LOVING it. I swear Kairos has the spirit of a gerbil in him (and Apollo of Martha Stewart, going crazy behind Kairos to put things in proper places.
EDIT: Oh, figured out their end design. They built themselves a tunnel under the new house haha.


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## nanashi7

Kairos is a lot like Remus. He just groomed his tail, then curled up and wrapped his tail around his face. Elias is up napping in the corner den with Milo. Apollo is such a butthole and just went around to sit on everyone and groom them a bit. Milo abandoned ship and is napping on the bedding.


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## Daniel

Hm I thought she said Saturday the 7th also? I explained why I had to wait till later on Saturday because of my money and she said not until 6 PM. Would like to hear from here if there is a date mix up.


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## nanashi7

Well, BG is about 2 hours from Dayton so the times still match. I'll text her when my phone charges back on, unless she posts here first. I'm thinking she said the 7th more so maybe the dates/days got mixed up.


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## nanashi7

Wheel trick is working; everyone is really tuckered out. When one gets bored rather than create problems they hop on the wheel. I just wish I could offer the boys the same :/
Digging is something they really enjoy, though. i have a nice dig box for play time that is fun. Hahaha Kairos just fell asleep in his coconut and I have been just watching his head droop out the opening...lower...and lower...and lower... He just snapped awake and tucked it in. (Still no chewing on the plastic base)

I keep thinking about all the fun things I want to buy the rats to play with but payday is Friday 
ANYWAY. It seems like it's just you and I, Daniel. I'm hoping people will still chime in here. I really really overthink things, which is okay since these are living baby rats.
I think we are meeting on the 7th, which is Sunday. I am flexible to either da and I hope everyone else is. My meet time is around 2-3ish.

If the cage is big enough and she doesn't mind smelly fleece, I will be sending with the rats hideyholes they use and scraps of fabric. Depending on if Zurfaces takes a rat, the size of the scraps may be big enough to fashion something out of or may just be something to toss or tuck in a hammock. Up to you. I also was going to send little baggies of the treats the enjoy for you guys and will buy some nice new chews just for the trip. Is this something you guys would want or is it bothersome?


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## nanashi7

View attachment 74209
Here are three rats; Can you spot them all?

Kairos is on the lava ledge (pink), Milo is in the hammock and Elias is on the coconut (Apollo is in it, so maybe it is technically 4 rats!)


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## nanashi7

View attachment 74225
There are four boys in this picture as well. Can you see them all? It's a bit ridiculous honestly. Apollo wised up that he couldn't sleep holding onto the cage and is pouting alone in the corner.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I keep thinking about all the fun things I want to buy the rats to play with but payday is Friday
> ANYWAY. It seems like it's just you and I, Daniel. I'm hoping people will still chime in here. I really really overthink things, which is okay since these are living baby rats.
> I think we are meeting on the 7th, which is Sunday. I am flexible to either da and I hope everyone else is. My meet time is around 2-3ish.


The 7th is Saturday - or did you mix up the day?

Argh totally unclear now.


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## nanashi7

Ah! Missed up the days. I think we are meeting on SUNDAY. The 8th. Not the 7th.


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## Auvreathem

I texted zurfaces a couple days ago and she said we were meeting Sunday around 6 at the Greene 


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## nanashi7

That's what I thought. Daniel, can you still meet on Sunday?


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> That's what I thought. Daniel, can you still meet on Sunday?


I can, but my plans will have to change a little. This whole time I thought it was Saturday.


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## nanashi7

I thought it was Sunday, because that's when I would come home from a vacation. Things just got a bit confusing. Again, she has my number so I will post here (or I can give you my number) when the rats are with her.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I thought it was Sunday, because that's when I would come home from a vacation. Things just got a bit confusing. Again, she has my number so I will post here (or I can give you my number) when the rats are with her.


Well, it was that I hoped to be able to make one trip out to the business area of Beavercreek so I could also take care of rat/fish/fire belly toad supplies AND get the rattie boys all at once. Not a big deal. Where I live (technically, it is Beavercreek Township, not in the city) the nearest pet store is about a 20 min drive. 

But knowing me, I probably just drilled the wrong date in my head this whole time. Good point about the vacation day, who'd want to return on a Saturday.


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## nanashi7

Is the pet store open Sunday evenings?


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Is the pet store open Sunday evenings?


Yeah lol, just out of actual rat food and I'd like to stop having to cook them 5 course meals every day. I'll live another day doing it.


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## nanashi7

Haha man that must suck. I am so spoiled with having petstores close. I also have dogs and birds so in a jip I can offer kibble, seed, and whatever I have in the fridge without effort.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Haha man that must suck. I am so spoiled with having petstores close. I also have dogs and birds so in a jip I can offer kibble, seed, and whatever I have in the fridge without effort.


They are loving it - I am sure they will feel like they are roughing it when we go back to regular rat food - though I still might feed them their breakfast mash every day (an idea I got off the forum) . 

Every day they are still going to get at least carrots - once a week they get spaghetti, and I share my meals with them alot, so it won't be too boring for Kairos and Apollo.


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## nanashi7

Spoiled rats! 
As a college kid, almost all my food is unhealthy so I usually can't offer them much in terms of nutritious yummy foods (though I'm sure it is yummy!). They do love any non-block food they get thoug, I've yet to be turned down.


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## zurfaces

Is everyone okay with me doing it on saturday? Larry wants to leave early

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## nanashi7

Saturday it is haha. I'm okay with Saturday.


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## nanashi7

I put out a little stuffed animal to play with, and it seems to be a nice hit. I imagine that they just want to destroy it.

Some of the grey babies (female) are showing continued signs or poor vision and were skittish to be touched. Demetria, Artemis, Echo and Circe are the grey ones.. It was odd because they hadn't been so I am a bit concerned that there may be a health problem? Which is horrible but I can hardly believe that there vision can decay that quickly :/
Elias does not seem to have this same problem.


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## nanashi7

Eos succeeced in making it to the TOP of the door fram. That's what, 7 foot?


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## Auvreathem

Looks like I'm going to be getting a little hellion lol


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## nanashi7

Eos will be needing a very tall cage if this behavior is any indication. I can't tell if it would be better to sit under the door frame to break her fall or if that will only encourage her. I do catch her/bring her down each time but she's getting higher up than I am tall and it's becoming a problem. Sigh. Rats.


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## nanashi7

She is one! One of her past times in the cage is to "prank" the others and spark fights, and she just darts off. ._.

Well, she'll be your problem in just two days haha. Don't be fooled by Chara's looks either because she LOVES hand wrestling and is quite the active bugger. Peony is the least problematic as her goal is just to escape or groom you


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## nanashi7

Male nails do not appear to be benefitting from the lava perch. The remain complacent in handling 
They also seem to be the culprits responsible for the stray poops, while the girls were more orgnaized.vrd8

Edit: That was a message from Milo. "...were more organized."


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## zurfaces

We probably will pick up the rats saturday we can keep them overnight if the dayton people aren't ready to pick them up. I believe one if not both said sunday. 

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## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> We probably will pick up the rats saturday we can keep them overnight if the dayton people aren't ready to pick them up. I believe one if not both said sunday.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Daniel thought Saturday, so I'm sure he'd be okay with that.


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## nanashi7

Kairos made soft bruxing? chuffing? It sounded like a whine to me... while licking me today. They all been licky today I think because i keep intervening with dominance struggles. I tried listening to the vocalizations online but they distressed the poor boy.


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## Daniel

zurfaces said:


> We probably will pick up the rats saturday we can keep them overnight if the dayton people aren't ready to pick them up. I believe one if not both said sunday.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm ready for 6 PM Saturday, in fact it is better for me. In texts, you will have to hammer out the 'where' in the Greene - I have an idea of what the best place in the Greene is.


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## nanashi7

Now we just have to get Avureathem back on board


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## Daniel

N7, will you want future health updates/new pics and the like? I will get some pictures of Apollo and Kairos with the rest of the gang, but I wonder if you'll be interested in how they are doing in a few months/years.


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## Auvreathem

I'm on board! Saturday is actually better for me too. Around 6? And where are we meeting? I'm not very familiar with the Greene. 

I also want to keep in contact with you nanashi, I'm pretty sure you want to see how all the babies are doing later


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## nanashi7

Of course I'm gonna keep track of how they're doing  even if I have to stalk you on the boards! I really do love all the rats, so their health and how they're doing really matters.


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## Auvreathem

PHaha! Man I'm so excited I'm going to die. One thing though, I have no idea how to pronounce their names. I have them in my head but I'm sure they are completely wrong


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## nanashi7

None of them really learned their names, it was more of a way for me to keep track of them as I'm awful with numbers. They usually just respond because I'm raising my voice or waving my hands like a maniac (when they are being mischievous). So, they can be whatever you want.

But...Here we go. Pardon my crude attempts to phonetically spell them.
Peony : Pee-on-ee.
Chara : Car (the vehicle)-ah / "Kar-ah"
Eos : Ee-Ous / "ee-ohz"

The others:
Kairos : Ka-i-Rose (silentish e) /Kai-RowS
Apollo : A-paul-low
Elias : Eel-ee-uhs
Milo : My-low

Athena : A-theen-ah
Persephone : Purr-sef-phony
Echo : Echo
Demetria: Dah-me-tree-ah
Artemis : Art-ah-miss


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## Auvreathem

I was right! I'm surprised. I made the mistake by not teaching my rats their names but they all come when I do a click thing with my tongue, so I guess that counts


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## nanashi7

My adults know their names, but they only come if I am more interesting than what they are already doing.

Boyfriend is coming over tonight for farewell free ranging and to help transport tomorrow. I'll be taking pictures tonight too


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## Daniel

One more day! 

I tend to do my introductions pretty quickly and sudden so I don't have to do separate set ups for too long, short of a problem. My boys are still young (all under 6 months), so I don't think there will be issues. I have the GP cage stored so I hope I won't have to bring it back out.


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## nanashi7

I occasionally bring Remus back to play with them, even if it has been a while. They are pretty good about not mobbing him after they have been pinned, but occasionally they will. A less tolerant male should have that worked out in a minute, Remus is far too complacent with them. Usually, I just swipe the baby/babies off and they leave him alone (for 20 minutes....)

I've read that rats aren't fooled by our silly little tricks devised to make intros go easy, and that it is best for nonaggressive residents and newbies to all be thrown together as soon as you are sure of health. Honestly, I'm not sure the boys will notice the new guys too much with all the OTHER new things going on  Plus, since your cage is still relatively new your boys are probably shaken up abit too.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I occasionally bring Remus back to play with them, even if it has been a while. They are pretty good about not mobbing him after they have been pinned, but occasionally they will. A less tolerant male should have that worked out in a minute, Remus is far too complacent with them. Usually, I just swipe the baby/babies off and they leave him alone (for 20 minutes....)
> 
> I've read that rats aren't fooled by our silly little tricks devised to make intros go easy, and that it is best for nonaggressive residents and newbies to all be thrown together as soon as you are sure of health. Honestly, I'm not sure the boys will notice the new guys too much with all the OTHER new things going on  Plus, since your cage is still relatively new your boys are probably shaken up abit too.


The only time I ever had problems was with a pair I got at PetSmart. Those 2 were in their own little world and were aggressive toward the other rats. So I ended up returning them since I didn't have the space for 2 big boys in addition to the others. 

I like to do the fast intros so the established rats have no time to react. But honestly, my boys now are friendly - when I got Parsley, Tux and the late blondie boy took to him right away.


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## nanashi7

Hi guys! Sorry, we had a bit of a problem last night with rats escaping (everything is fine now, boyfriend was at fault) so by the time everything was sorted out I crashed. Right now I am packing little baggies with food and treats to prep them to go home, and trying to make sure everything else is ready. Zurfaces and I are meeting around 12ish. Maybe you can tell but I am updating via cellular phone. I do have pictures to post but that'll have to wait 


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> . Zurfaces and I are meeting around 12ish.


Let us know how that goes.


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## zurfaces

I'm here waiting for nanashi she forgot the goody bags lol

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## nanashi7

Babies passed along thirty minutes ago 


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## Timberlee Fields

It's gonna be weird not having all of those babies at home. 


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## zurfaces

Just wanted to let everyone know the babies have arrived safe and sound to my coffee table. I'll be meeting with their new parents at 6. They slept the whole way down. 
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## nanashi7

Ah, I'm so excited. Even though I know it isn't six I still want to hear about them in their new homes.


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## nanashi7

Timberlee Fields said:


> It's gonna be weird not having all of those babies at home.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I still have a lot of babies left, so I've no empty nest syndrome yet.


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## nanashi7

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Here are some pictures, from last night. Very late!


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## nanashi7

View attachment 75017
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And some more, since apparently the previous ones were all that would attach.


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## zurfaces

Babies have been handed off. Super sweet little guys you did a great job socializing them. I'm glad daniel had normal colored hair otherwise I would feel left out. Nanashi has pink and Auvreathem has green lol 

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----------



## nanashi7

Haha this is actually pretty tame for me, I've always had a full head of color (purple, blue).

I'm so excited. Thank you for transporting them and putting up with me being late. I've been stalking this thread waiting to hear about them


----------



## zurfaces

I just want to let everyone know if for some reason you have any issues and need to get rid of the babies I am going to be fostering for earps so please contact them and me and we will find them a new home. 

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----------



## nanashi7

zurfaces said:


> I just want to let everyone know if for some reason you have any issues and need to get rid of the babies I am going to be fostering for earps so please contact them and me and we will find them a new home.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And, to add in, my offer to take them back at any time still stands.


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## Auvreathem

Right now there are a bit on edge, but I'm guessing that's because they left everything the know behind. I'll update you on how things go


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----------



## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> Right now there are a bit on edge, but I'm guessing that's because they left everything the know behind. I'll update you on how things go
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Aw, even Peony? She usually rolls with the punches. I hope everything goes great! I'll be stalking for updates :3


----------



## Daniel

Same here, Apollo and Kairos are doing introductions with Tux right now on my bed (see my thread on admonishment why Parsley isn't there).









Apollo trying to show some love to Tux (I tried but failed to get the 3 of them together).

Thanks BTW for zurfaces meeting us and making the delivery, and N7 for taking so well of the babies, as well as thanks for the little parting gifts - I am going to integrate that little basket thing with the rest of the big cage.


----------



## nanashi7

Hows Tux taking to them? Are the boys being nice? They always mobbed Remus.
I always had trouble getting them in pictures. lol

I saw that on Parsley; I hope everything works out. My rats don't listen to me ever so I can only pin them over and over until they realize I am not enjoying their behavior.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Hows Tux taking to them? Are the boys being nice? They always mobbed Remus.
> I always had trouble getting them in pictures. lol
> 
> I saw that on Parsley; I hope everything works out. My rats don't listen to me ever so I can only pin them over and over until they realize I am not enjoying their behavior.


Tux is actually a little spooked I think by the biting incident earlier - Parsley squeaked like **** when he did it, and when I reacted by suddenly lifting my hand I banged the cage real loud - Tux was at the base of the cage sleeping at the time. 

But as far as the boys go, Tux is actually acting a little scared of them. He's not being mean though, and has been sniffing Apollo's butt a bit so we're making progress.

Your boys haven't been pooping on my bed so they must have been getting along a bit on not doing it out of the cage.


----------



## nanashi7

Haha they never did for me, really ever only avoided marking. I wish you the best of luck on that.

How's Kairos doing?


----------



## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Haha they never did for me, really ever only avoided marking. I wish you the best of luck on that.
> 
> How's Kairos doing?


Tagging along with Apollo but wow is he an escape artist - he is the first rat Ive ever had brave enough to jump off my bed. May have to change future play locations if he keeps doing that. 

Kairos climbed my shoulder. We're doing good. I will post more pics in the next couple days once they get settled. They were cowering in the corner of the cage when I had them in there so they probably need a few hours to explore it.


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## nanashi7

Haha they _are _active little buggers. 

I hope everything goes great for you guys. Everything changed really fast with them, but I am confident they'll do fine. Even meeting Zurfaces out in the open, they seemed ready to explore within minutes.

Thanks for helping them find nice homes, guys


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## Daniel

I jinked myself by saying they didnt poop on my bed. When I took off the blanket, they left me some nice runny ones. 

Situation now is the brothers are at the top of the cage hiding behind the food dish while Tux lords over the bottom floor. They are timid about accepting treats but they have - right now they are eating a little piece of a Doritoe and an hour ago they shared a carrot with Tux.

One observation about them both though - they are both clearly on the small side for about 6 week old rats.


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## nanashi7

Yeah :/ I pumped them full of protein since they are too young for Oxbow adult but they still stayed small. I even looked up dwarf rats to see if I somehow bred that.

I'm sorry about them being timid. I hope it is a short-term personality thing. They usually liked to nap or rest on the top of their cage unless bedding was on the bottom to dig in.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Yeah :/ I pumped them full of protein since they are too young for Oxbow adult but they still stayed small. I even looked up dwarf rats to see if I somehow bred that.
> 
> I'm sorry about them being timid. I hope it is a short-term personality thing. They usually liked to nap or rest on the top of their cage unless bedding was on the bottom to dig in.


Don't sweat it - it's normal. And actually, it is a good sign that they will accept treats from me, even if they are scared to. Most pet store rats it might take days to get to that point. 

I'd like to hear how the girls wound up. She got her rats before mine in a different park of the parking lot so I didn't see them.

Are you (n7) going to try and rehome the others, or keep them?


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## nanashi7

I am attempting to rehome the males, as it would be $400 to neuter them and neutering them would be the only way I would be comfortable keeping them. Plus, I really would like to only have one active cage to clean and such -- unless someone takes some females, neutering them would still put me over-capacity in the cage-department. I made a flyer and an adoption contract and jumped the fee to $20 for the pair, since I can't be as trusting with my uni and CL as I am with you guys.
I probably will just keep the females unless someone ambles along and asks for a pair. There are really only Demetria and Athena available in the girl department with me wanting to keep three of them. If they'll accept the rescue rat into their midst, I'll be able to keep the girls and Remus in one cage and have only one free range to do, leaving more time for them to play.

Avureathem said her girls were a bit nervous, so she's probably out enjoying the fluff balls. I'm glad the rats are at least excelling over the pet stores. I didn't know how to get them to be used to tons of people while simultaneously controlling the germ flow.


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## Auvreathem

I think they are frightened because my cats spooked them. I walked away for two seconds and they popped up near the cage. I'm sure they will be fine after they get a bit more comfortable 


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## nanashi7

Haha probably; Remus taught my dogs not to bother the cage so while they had dogs in the room, none near the cage.


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## Auvreathem

If you really want to stalk the babies I recommend following me on Instagram. It's a lot easier to add photos there and I'm on it quite a bit more @adthea


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## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> If you really want to stalk the babies I recommend following me on Instagram. It's a lot easier to add photos there and I'm on it quite a bit more @adthea
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Will do! Yay for interweb creepin.


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## nanashi7

I love that picture, Avureathem. Hve you decided to rename them?


----------



## Daniel

Little unexpected - on day 2 they are fighting with each other, mostly Kairos pinning Apollo. I keep hearing squeeks. I expected them to have fights with Tux at some point but even thought they are now sleeping on the bottom, they have been avoiding him (and he the same).


----------



## nanashi7

Fighting? I mean, the boyos have always been the most rambunctious about pinning and such for dominance/play. I never had it become something I had to break up.

I wish they were more friendly; maybe Tux is also feeling a bit off with changes, due to Parsley?


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## Auvreathem

The girls are doing a loooooot better today. Yesterday they were really freaked out and wouldn't even take food. Today though they are acting normal. Peony seems to be really interested in my face. And yes, I'm keeping their names


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## Auvreathem

Peony and Chara are the most outgoing so far. Eos is still a bit timid but I bet a bit more coaxing will get her out of her shell. 

They are too adorable. Peony and Chara keep fighting over that pink fluff thing in the cage. They are hopping and stealing it, so cute ermahgerrrrddd 


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## nanashi7

Haha I'm glad. Chara always looked so sweet and innocent and always was sooo hyper and a little demon. If Peony is given the chance, she will try to stick her face in all of your orifices just to do a friendly check that you are grooming fine. lol.


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## Auvreathem

Did you ever notice Chara seems to have an overbite? Her teeth kind of push her bottom lip down. I think I'm going to put some hard chews in the cage to see if it will wear her teeth down a bit. It might just be how her mouth is structured. It looks cute though. Lol 


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## nanashi7

I did notice that she seemed to "gape" her mouth some, but she was one of the rats who constantly was chewing on things so I never thought to check her teeth. They are still really tiny so maybe her teeth are proper-sized for a 7wk rat but not her head lol


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## Daniel

Free range today with Tux was better. Kairos was trying to dominate him this time, but Tux was just shrugging him off. Nothing out of line though. Kairos is a little more food shy than Apollo - but Apollo is more shy over all. They both like carrots. They seem to be pretty good about always going on the bottom level as well. 

And I think you're right, Tux is a bit wierded out both by the lack of Parsley and the new boys. I considered trying intro with Parsley but since he has been unfriendly with me even today I am not sure. I may try a few other things but if he keeps going how he is now I have to keep him as a solo rat or rehome. 

zurfaces gave me this blue stick thing, I think it is some kind of bird chew? Im curious what it is because even Tux likes it.


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## nanashi7

Oh, before I sent them off I packed little treats to go home with. I sent three types of chew toys, I'm guessing it is the first if it came from me;
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4193653&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2750448&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12289095&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No

Did you try immersion with Parsley? Before my male was neutered he started to get hormonal and misbehaving. I had to pin him several times a day to reassert myself.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Oh, before I sent them off I packed little treats to go home with. I sent three types of chew toys, I'm guessing it is the first if it came from me;
> http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4193653&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
> http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2750448&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
> http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12289095&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
> 
> Did you try immersion with Parsley? Before my male was neutered he started to get hormonal and misbehaving. I had to pin him several times a day to reassert myself.


Out of the cage, he has been OK. In the cage is where the problems are - 'his territory' - being snipy with me (now he tries and blocks my hand if I get too close) and bullying of other rats. I wasn't sure if immersion would help with that? I now think the actual reason I was bitten was because I was cleaning up the food around the dish - 'his food'. If I can get him to be more calm, neutering is going to be in order, something I usually don't like to do to males without a very good reason.

As far as how it relates to this (huge) thread, I don't want to ruin the brothers by having them get beat up by a bully. While Tux is clearly the alpha in the main cage, he has never been very bullying, though he will steal food if a beta rat is slow with protecting it (Tux stole a piece of Apollo's spaghetti yesterday).


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## nanashi7

Their mother always stole their treats so they are probably used to it. Is Kairos doing okay with Tux being the alpha and him trying to dominate?

Immersion helped with Remus; I had it under control but had him neutered anyway due to not wanting anymore babies -- though, you may have to pin him in the cage to communicate you are the boss at all times anywhere.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Their mother always stole their treats so they are probably used to it. Is Kairos doing okay with Tux being the alpha and him trying to dominate?


Kairos actually THINKS he is the alpha . He attempts to steal Tux's food (a little banana piece just now). In Kairos's world, he's alpha. The brothers also act a little interested in the hammock, which I have left up even though it's mostly unused in the hope that eventually they make take to it. 

As an aside, their fur texture is interesting. I've never had rats with this kind of fur before - much softer and less course than usual rats.


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## Daniel

Per whatAuvhttp://www.ratforum.com/member.php?251474-Auvreathemreathem said, I think Kairos also has a bit of an overbite...but I agree that it actually makes him look all the more cuter for it.


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## nanashi7

I wonder if it is just a growth thing or a health concern? I never thought to be worried about it.

Well, by next Monday their fur should be permanent. I do love their fluff balls and hope they keep it. I tried to explain it, since it wasn't quite "rex" feeling compared to my male.

I love the idea that Kairos is in hid own little world. They haven't helped the others be active or interested though?


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## Auvreathem

I doubt it will be a problem at all. They just have buck teeth. 
It's so awesome how different each baby is. I don't even know how that happened. I had a rat that had babies and they all looked the same.


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## Daniel

A mini rat pile suddenly appears!

In other news, Apollo (not so much Kairos) is actually playing with that bird toy I bought that my other boys ignored.


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## nanashi7

Well, Caius and Remus look so different because I wanted to be able to easily distinguish my rats. Some of the babies though have their "twins", like Athena/Persephone (and Milo), and Chara/Peony. 

How are your rats, Auvreathem?
Daniel? 
I'm glad to see that Kairos is on board for cuddles, is Tux enjoying them? Have you tried anything with Parsley? I'm glad Apollo is enjoying himself, maybe the other boys will catch on


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Well, Caius and Remus look so different because I wanted to be able to easily distinguish my rats. Some of the babies though have their "twins", like Athena/Persephone (and Milo), and Chara/Peony.
> 
> How are your rats, Auvreathem?
> Daniel?
> I'm glad to see that Kairos is on board for cuddles, is Tux enjoying them? Have you tried anything with Parsley? I'm glad Apollo is enjoying himself, maybe the other boys will catch on


Tux seems to have adjusted to them. He hasn't really established a hierarchy with them yet though. 

Parsley attacked Tux yesterday night when I put him inside his cage briefly - this hasn't inspired confidence in me about doing intro with the babies. Tonight when I get back I am going to try taking the brothers out and putting him back in the big cage to see if he still does it.

If it doesn't improve, than I am going to try immersion, and if that doesn't work I am probably going to rehome him with someone who wants only a lone rat.

Kairos is an attention hog and very needy - if I put my hand out to him, he WILL climb up me, but he doesn't want to sit still on me yet so he isn't a shoulder rat yet. Maybe when he matures some.


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## nanashi7

Haha his father hasn't yet chilled out energy-wise, so I have had to train him shoulder time means stand still. I wouldn't be surprised if his young were at least as equally hyper.

Is the neediness something you enjoy? I should've asked, because I love it but you may not.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Haha his father hasn't yet chilled out energy-wise, so I have had to train him shoulder time means stand still. I wouldn't be surprised if his young were at least as equally hyper.
> 
> Is the neediness something you enjoy? I should've asked, because I love it but you may not.


I like it, but in the past I think it caused bad feelings among my rats - Parsley started to act out whenever I had Tux on me and was baby talking him. I will just have to balance it.

The brothers were bullying Tux a bit just now over breakfast - I was afraid of this. If Parsley cannot be re-integrated, I will put another neutral boy in there to balance them out.


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## nanashi7

I'm sorry to hear that :/ Do you offer two food/water locations?

My opinion on things is not probably the best, but usually I like to let things work out -- especially with dogs, I've found that I can drive myself mad with trying to intervene but I just need to let the alpha tell the others that they are out of line. I've seen maybe one other person who held this opinion, and said you should stick them in a smaller travel cage under supervision. Obviously this doesn't work if any rat is at risk of being aggressive.

Maybe Apollo would do okay with Parsley since he seems to be less interested in being the boss like Kairos is?


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## Auvreathem

The rats are doing really well. I am a bit behind Daniel on getting to know them. I've been swamped with school work and other responsibilities but I'm trying to not feel too bad. Stuff comes up and I'm giving them the best I can. Don't think they are being neglected, lol


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## Daniel

N7, or Auvreathem, I wondered if you've noticed this about some of the babies - 

Remember how some of them (like Apollo) started out as dumbos but had their ears turn up? Looking at Apollo just now, I actually think he is a half dumbo - his ear canal are clearly set lower on his head (and this was obvious when he was sitting next to Tux), but the ears are turned up.


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## nanashi7

I thought that but couldn't find anything about half dumbos.

I'm happy the rats have good homes; I couldn't always do every day for hours on end and think no ill of others who are also hard at work.


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## nanashi7

I have a question for you guys. I've found a person who is interested in the two males left. She's owned rats before and is willing to learn about them more. Here's my concern: there is a 6 year old in the house. Do you think the rats are too small?


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I have a question for you guys. I've found a person who is interested in the two males left. She's owned rats before and is willing to learn about them more. Here's my concern: there is a 6 year old in the house. Do you think the rats are too small?


At this point, I'd say yes. Kairos is like a mini rat for his age, Apollo is a little bigger (though maybe because he is a little fat boy).

Maybe you can get this person to wait till after they are 2 months, so they can get some more growth in?


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## nanashi7

Two months is next week :/


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## nanashi7

Okay, I told her the rats were very small and gave a list of warnings about the size and the child. I am waiting to hear back to see if she still thinks it is a good idea for the child to be involved. 

I also have had someone else respond for two little girls out of the blue. Athena and Demetria have MAYBE found a home 

It's both a bit sad, bittersweet and really makes me happy. I was getting to the point where the boys were going to have to be neutered and they are so young and small that it couldn't be safe. I've also been having cage problems, so this should relieve some of that. Caius, Remus, Iris, Artemis, Echo, Persephone, and Circe seem to be the ones in my mischief. I unfortunately don't know if the person adopting out the boys will keep me updated which is sad because Elias and I are very close.


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## nanashi7

How're the rats doing for you guys? I saw your picture, Avureathem. I loved it  I guess she's gonna be like her momma obsessed with touching the camera.


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## nanashi7

The person wanting rats is in Cincinnati. It's like DARN why couldn't you have messaged me a week earlier!!!


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## Daniel

Rats are doing fine. Apollo and Tux have formed a little bond - they like to sleep together. Apollo is more reserved but more hungry and is a big eater.

Kairos is trying to make himself the alpha rat and will fight with the other 2 pretty often. Tux doesn't usually get the better of him, so he may actually become the alpha eventually. Kairos is more adverterous and an escapee - brave enough to jump from my bed. 

So far they seem pretty average in health which is good. I noticed that they are not *often* poopers but when they go they take huge ones (sorry to be gross but that's what I have noticed).


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## nanashi7

How is Parsley doing? They aren't being exclusive in their bond are they? Is fighting the bad type? 

I noticed that too, but my male is the same way. I just thought it was a guy thing :/


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> How is Parsley doing? They aren't being exclusive in their bond are they? Is fighting the bad type?
> 
> I noticed that too, but my male is the same way. I just thought it was a guy thing :/


Still pretty bad. No biting, but my roommate tried to fill his water bottle and his hand was rushed at when grabbing it. 

Against my better judgement, I was asked to take an older hairless rat that was getting old for a Pet Store a friend of mine works at (I never even knew they had hairlesses). I fished my bird cage out of my parent's trash and he is being kept there whle in Q. Depending on who he gets along with, he will either be Kairos and friends roomie or possibly Parsley's. Maybe an older boy would work better with him (he is about 8 months old). 

They wanted me to take 2 of them, but I don't have that kind of room. Would love to have a rat rescue some day! (and maybe eventually when I only have 2-3 rats of my own, I will have a couple of 'beds' for rescues if anyone needs space).


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## nanashi7

If you were able to drive to Wapakoneta when I was transporting the girls down, I could bring either the bird cage I built up or the modded guinea cage for you if you needed another cage. I would be keeping the furnishings, but both are suitable.

I want to run a sanctuary where animals who are unadoptable can come be loved and happy; part of the reason I took in Iris


----------



## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> If you were able to drive to Wapakoneta when I was transporting the girls down, I could bring either the bird cage I built up or the modded guinea cage for you if you needed another cage. I would be keeping the furnishings, but both are suitable.
> 
> I want to run a sanctuary where animals who are unadoptable can come be loved and happy; part of the reason I took in Iris


Hopefully I won't need more space. We'll see how this goes. 

That's why I took this male. He was born in this store, returned once, and now is full grown and not too sellable because he isn't 'cute' anymore. He didn't get along with his brother after awhile, so they were separated, and he has been alone for months. If the brother is still there in a few months, I may come back for him - rats over 1 year old are real tough sells. He's a hooded hairless dumbo, looks like he has more fur than he actually does because of the pattern of his skin. 

I hope to get in contact with one of the local rescues once I have so more room - even a slot for 2 is better than none, though I will probably only be able to take males.


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## nanashi7

It's so sad. I don't live near rescues so there are none to foster around me and the information on setting up a legitimate rescue on ones own is near nonexistent. :/
If you decide you need it, I'll let you know when I'll be in the area.


----------



## Daniel

Soo...when I got back from an errand while the rats were out on freerange, Kairos had not only jumped off the bed, but had got into the hairless's cage ! 

There is no way he was missexed - his testicles are prominent...but since he was already in there an hour, I am considering leaving him there now. The good news is that the hairless is being friendly to Kairos - sleeping on him and zero fighting/squeeking. I haven't seen any signs yet of health problems, but I don't want to put Kairos back in with the others until I know.


----------



## nanashi7

Haha I did say they were quite the handful. Honestly, if he is hairless and has already been chilling with Kairos anything he had might've passed on. Most quarantines are aimed at finding out if they have the deadly airborne viruses or any parasite problems.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Haha I did say they were quite the handful. Honestly, if he is hairless and has already been chilling with Kairos anything he had might've passed on. Most quarantines are aimed at finding out if they have the deadly airborne viruses or any parasite problems.


He is probably the most healthy non PetSmart pet store rat I've ever had. Maybe it is his age? They said he was as young as 8 months but possibly more like 10 months. 

I might have to put out a request that someone else local to me grab his brother, when you have hairlesses that are just under a year old unadopted it is a bad sign they may never be.


----------



## nanashi7

Would the local rescue take him in?


----------



## zurfaces

nanashi7 said:


> The person wanting rats is in Cincinnati. It's like DARN why couldn't you have messaged me a week earlier!!!


Just skimming through this and checking on the babies! Nanashi if you have facebook I would suggest joining rattie chattie it's a group on there. Most of them are ohioans and involved in rat rescues. I can post there on your behalf if you'd like but it'd be easier if you did. I'm sure someone else would be able to get them down this way to Cincinnati. Also someone closer might be willing to adopt them! 

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## nanashi7

She agreed to meet in Wapakoneta, and my mother agreed to let me use her nice air conditioned car. I have a dummy facebook for liking pages to get discounts haha. I used that to try to join.


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## Daniel

Sleepy brothers piled behind the food dish


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## nanashi7

They're so fluffy! How's everyone doing?


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## Auvreathem

I don't know if that picture works but I'm on my phone and its the only way I can share pictures on here. 
Anyway, this is what I've started doing with the girls. I'm not comfortable free ranging with them yet so I open their cage and when they are comfortable they can slip through the bars on my big girl cage. They really like being able to run around (Eos is soooooo hyper) and they are getting acquainted with my other girls. Things are going well here! Still nervous around me though  


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----------



## Grawrisher

Dd all da babies get adopted?


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## nanashi7

I watched the video  I'm glad they are getting along with your girls. I warned you Eos was a hellion haha. I would suggest immersion for socializing but even the shy ones I still have are sooo tiny it's hard to keep them still for more than just treats.


The adoption for two girls and two boys is still pending. I haven't heard back from the one lady who wanted two girls in a couple days :/ The woman who wants to meet the boys hasn't responded to arranging that.


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## Auvreathem

Eos and peony went by themselves but I put Chara in later. She seems very timid and reserved, while Eos is the most out going and waiting to be on the run 24/7. She constantly tries to start petty fights with my girls. It's adorable


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## nanashi7

That's so cute. Chara was very shy for a couple of weeks with me, but she quickly became the mischievous version of Peony.


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## Daniel

Hm strange I posted a reply to how the boys were doing but it's gone..I swore it went through.

Against my better judgment, my roomie made me reduce my cages down to 2 so I had to introduce the hairless + Kairos back with the other 2 way early. The good news was that the hairless is so gentle despite being a big boy that he stays out of all dominance fights the others have. I am also a little less worried because the hairless is an older guy less likely to have serious illness. 

Other than that, mostly the same - Kairos is the explorer, Apollo is the sleepy hungry boy, and they fight (playfully) with Tux all the time. They just back from a 4 rat outing and they are starting to not be poopies out of the cage.

Kairos also has a funky shaped head. It's flatter than normal on the bridge of his nose - strange but cute!


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## Auvreathem

One of my favorite things that Eos does is when rats are climbing the ramps to other levels, she will pull on their tails to make them slip. A hellion I say! 

I'm glad things are going well with your babies Daniel! You should take some pictures of his face, I'm interested 


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## nanashi7

I was wondering if that meant they were dwarf rats haha. It'd make it easier to know their size :/

How're they socializing to you? I'm glad to hear everyone is getting along; what of Parsley? I assume he is in the second cage.


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## nanashi7

Auvreathem said:


> One of my favorite things that Eos does is when rats are climbing the ramps to other levels, she will pull on their tails to make them slip. A hellion I say!
> 
> I'm glad things are going well with your babies Daniel! You should take some pictures of his face, I'm interested


She's going to be something awful when she's full grown haha.


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> I was wondering if that meant they were dwarf rats haha. It'd make it easier to know their size :/
> 
> How're they socializing to you? I'm glad to hear everyone is getting along; what of Parsley? I assume he is in the second cage.


We did one round of immersion that ended with him coming to me as if to snuggle but instead I got a bite on my nose. Not a mean bite, but a bite that nevertheless drew blood. 

It's hard to explain with Kairos. When you see them from the side, he and his brother, it's obvious that Kairos has a more smooshed face than his brother, most visible on the bridge of his nose. His skull appears to be 'taller' than his brother's. I don't know if it is a health problem (probably not).

You might see it in some of your pictures of him. I will try and get some but Kairos is also the most hyper of the bunch so it might be a challenge.


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## nanashi7

http://www.camarattery.com/Site Pictures/Dwarf size comparason.jpg

I hope it isn't a health problem. Maybe it's like with twins, since there were so many babies and Caius was so young her got smushed?

Parsley sounds like he is doing what Remus did during his puberty :/ Pinning and admonishing didn't work well


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## Auvreathem

The rats are doing great! They are getting to like me so much faster than pet store rats, I think I just had to open them up a bit. 
I've found that I always bond faster with my rats when they are free ranging so I took a leap of faith and locked everything up and let them go wild for a couple hours while I was out. They did perfectly fine, nothing destroyed and they were actually in the cage when I get back. They come up to me all the time to just see what's going on. I can tell they aren't completely comfortable yet but I'm hoping we will be there soon.
It's crazy how much faster this process is than with my pet store rats. It took months for them to get to the level they are at now and it seems like it's going to be a couple of weeks for your girls. Thanks for the effort you put into them! You've made a rat lady very happy 


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## nanashi7

Must admit I'm shocked Eos didn't go psycho haha. Thanks I tried really hard to make sure they were friendly. Hows Chara coming along?


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## Auvreathem

Me too! It seems that there is a switch that turns it into crazy rat party time and Eos goes the most insane. She's so fast it's almost scary, she'll be on the top floor on my cage and in 1 second the bottom. 

Chara is doing a lot better though. She's still shy but I think her personality is just slow paced. Except for when it's party time, then she can get a bit crazy. How are the others doing? You haven't talked much about them


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## nanashi7

All the rats are doing fine; Iris (rescue rat) moved in with the others after a while. It's a bit hard still to socialize the rats, as many of the ones I kept are shier rats. I converted my room into a ratty play place and they enjoy all piling in one spot and ignoring the other 110 sq ft. The girls' cage has been being pretty rowdy lately; my boyfriend kept waking us both up saying "the rats are making sound!". The rats are almost always making sound!
The boys are a lot better, mellower and friendlier. I really love Elias, and I think he is going to be just as hard or harder to say bye to him as it was for Peony. I just can't afford to neuter him :/ 

The adopters haven't been in awesome contact with me so I've been pretty upset, since I turned others away in order to adopt them out.


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## Daniel

N7, remember you said one of your girls just stared into space and did nothing? Starting to get worried about Kairos the last day or so, I have noticed the same behavior with him which is a big change from how he was. During free range he just hid under the blanket while every once else ran around. Maybe it's temporary but I am wondering how that girl turned out.


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## nanashi7

She goes to the vet Friday, so I will definitely update. I've been reading a bit more on the genetics of HW, so I was ambling over to share what I learned: weird teeth and silly faces are normal. That's a big relief.

I do know that others on the forum have said that rats about to hit puberty have "moments". For Circe, it's not so much a moment as consistent :/ She is nonresponsive to most stimulants and does not like to be with rats too much.


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## Daniel

No worries about HW with these two. Apollo is a bad boy when it comes to this - neither of them poop outside of the cage anymore EXCEPT Apollo will sneak over to the corner of my bed, stick his butt out and poop off the edge so it goes between my mattress and the wall (in other words, so I cannot see it). Bad boy! He knows he's being bad and will run if I call him while he's doing it.


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## nanashi7

I swear it is the most bizarre thing; Remus loves pooping off the edges of things.


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## Daniel

One other thing I have begun to notice besides Kairos occasionally dropping off into space mentally is that he is looking like he is a bit smaller than Apollo. When they are at 4 months (and basically 'adult' by then) we'll know for sure, but I will bet that Kairos will end up mini-sized. Apollo isn't much smaller than Tux now even though Tux is about 3 weeks older.


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## nanashi7

They are just shy of two months now. They have just barely begun getting normal-sized for 6 week old rats so I think they are going to continue to be small. Like I said, I'm taking Circe to the vet Friday so if anyone has general questions that is litter-wide, I'll ask (such as buck teeth, smushed face).


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## Auvreathem

Hopefully kairos is just going through a phase or something. 
Luckily my girls have been doing really well. Still a bit skittish but during free range they loooove to run around. They seem to be very happy and are getting along with my other 3 girls


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## Daniel

Did you ever get the other 4 adopted? Would liek an update on that.


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## nanashi7

Avureathem, have you tried immersion?
I'm glad to hear they are getting along with your mischief. 

Dniel, how is Parsley? 


The four are still here. I am going to try more ads but my hopes are low :/


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## Grawrisher

Which four are still there?


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## Auvreathem

I've actually never heard about it but I just read quite a few posts about it from
Rat daddy... Holy crap. My eyes have been opened. I'm going to try to improve my relationship with my rats this way. Things are great with my original girls but I haven't learned to communicate with them well, and hopefully your girls will catch on quickly. I want to really bond with them.
I feel bad that I've been doing it wrong this whole time... But I'm going to dedicate a few hours tomorrow to doing this. Do you think I should do them separately or together?


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## Grawrisher

Have you read the guide? I can't remember if it covers multiple rats, I thought it did thought, yeah immersion is magic, aris was biting me a few times, about a week later






she just crawled up there


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## Auvreathem

Yeah, I did a bit more research and they aren't aggressive at all, they actually are very licky, so I should be able to do them together 


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## nanashi7

I did my original pair together. Shier Caius I stuck in my shirt for cuddles and hyper Remus played and explored. 

I still have two boys, Elias and Milo, and two girls, Athena and Demetria. 


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## nanashi7

Oh and it's not you did anything wrong. Loads of people bond with their era closely using other methods. I used this one so was suggesting it. 


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## Grawrisher

Gosh they're cute! So fr away though 


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## nanashi7

I'm going to try posting on the group Zurfaces recommended.


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## Grawrisher

Gosh Demetria is so frickin cute what color is she?


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## nanashi7

Her coat is bizarre. http://i.imgur.com/LGGUTNhh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/e42TTQSh.jpg I think she is platinum?


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## Grawrisher

Dammit...she's so stinking cute!!!!!!


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## nanashi7

Haha she knows it too, she'll come up with her big ol ears and beg for second treats...then third...then fifth... all knowing how to use her cuteness.


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## Grawrisher

why do you live so far away?!


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## nanashi7

Luck is never on my side. Here's the new about the babies; genetically, their skulls didn't fuse together right. The buck teeth and smushed head are a result. 


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## Grawrisher

But they're cute


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## nanashi7

Haha yeah. Unfortunately it is thanks to bad genetics. She said there should be no health problems long term, but that they may remain small and silly looking for the rest of their lives. 


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Luck is never on my side. Here's the new about the babies; genetically, their skulls didn't fuse together right. The buck teeth and smushed head are a result.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I take it this is official from the vet?

I'd be curious if she thought that about some of the remaining babies and not just what I said about Kairos. I think I noticed the same skull shape on at least one of your girls. Apollo has a normal head shape so it wasn't all of them.

But as long as they are able to live a normal life for a rat, I am not bothered by their genetic problems - just as long as those of us who have them don't breed them (yikes!).


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## nanashi7

Haha yeah I can't imagine there'd be great results from HW growth-issue babies being bred. But yes this is from the vet. I tried to describe everything you guys have mentioned about them, she said it is similar to cleft palate in humans. I only had Circe in with me who wasn't buck toothed or smushe head. Unfortunately the vet didn't really address the problem of Circe really but I suppose describing the symptoms is one thing nd sounds normal, experiencing the dazed rat is another thing and a quite scary one at that. Even my boyfriend don't believe me until I handed him Circe and told him to watch. 


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Haha yeah I can't imagine there'd be great results from HW growth-issue babies being bred. But yes this is from the vet. I tried to describe everything you guys have mentioned about them, she said it is similar to cleft palate in humans. I only had Circe in with me who wasn't buck toothed or smushe head. Unfortunately the vet didn't really address the problem of Circe really but I suppose describing the symptoms is one thing nd sounds normal, experiencing the dazed rat is another thing and a quite scary one at that. Even my boyfriend don't believe me until I handed him Circe and told him to watch.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's sad. Maybe Circe will just end up being a strange rat.

I remember there was a vid on YT with a guy who had a rat with some kind mental retardation and motor skill problems, so he moved by sliding on his back. So it could be worse.

I am pretty sure Demetria has the same head as Kairos.


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## nanashi7

I think she has like ratty Aspergers. The symptoms fit from a human perspective. She actually warmed up to Iris today at the vet so I'm considering caging her solo with - her ears are starting to look tattered so I fear she's being bullied. 


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## Grawrisher

I wish I lived closer and could take Demetria she's probably the cutest thing ever  with those genetics I hope there's no more babies


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## nanashi7

Remus lacks his equipment so haha no chance there. I did notice Demetria had a silly face today during treats when everyone was at the door. And she is quite adorable I was really hoping someone would've seen her and taken her by now. 

Good news is I get my camera back tomorrow so more pictures can be taken 


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## nanashi7

So...the facebook group somehow got that I was a breeder out of my ad. Don't know if I'm getting banned. Tried explaining AGAIN that it was an oops litter. It feels a bit excessive in truth.


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## Timberlee Fields

Is having a male cage this far out of question?


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## nanashi7

I really don't like it, I just don't want an accident to happen, it's my greatest fear. I would only keep the males if I got them neutered which would be like $400 total. :/


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## Timberlee Fields

At what point will you start to consider having to neuter?


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## nanashi7

They'll be 8 weeks Monday. If they are still here on the 12th week (or, 3 months) I'll have them neutered and move them in with the others.


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## Timberlee Fields

And you have postings up on CL?


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## nanashi7

I had one post. I'm putting up flyers in my uni and giving that a week before going back to CL.


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## Timberlee Fields

I'd put the ad up on CL and tell a little lie saying they have a vet appointment and can't go home for a week. That way you have extra time for CLers to see but gives your uni the first shot. 


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## nanashi7

Well, two weeks ago I posted an ad on CL. The adopters backed out (silently).


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## Timberlee Fields

Just a suggestion. 


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## Daniel

Getting big!


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## Grawrisher

I really wish I could take them 


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## Daniel

I will cease posting to this thread (longest in ratforum history?) after this, but I want to say that the two boys I have gotten from this litter have been two of the best rats I have ever had. Together in the same cage with my rat Tuxy (whom they treat like a surrogate brother) it is the best group of rats I've owned, they are a tight bunch, well behaved, friendly, curious, and loving with me.

The other 4 really deserve good homes.


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## nanashi7

Daniel said:


> I will cease posting to this thread (longest in ratforum history?) after this, but I want to say that the two boys I have gotten from this litter have been two of the best rats I have ever had. Together in the same cage with my rat Tuxy (whom they treat like a surrogate brother) it is the best group of rats I've owned, they are a tight bunch, well behaved, friendly, curious, and loving with me.
> 
> The other 4 really deserve good homes.


That's so sweet to hear. I'm glad everyone's doing great. I've been stalking you across the forum (snuggle pile thread), so it's alright to stop updating too much.

I have moved and internet is a luxury I can't afford, so my activity is sadly diminished. The other four have found no homes, I am going to give it just another week of last-ditch effort before neutering the two boys. After that is my school's fall break, so I will be using that time to immerse the bunch.


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## nanashi7

I just thought I'd update this a bit. The two boys "MIGHT" have found a home. One of the two girls up for adoption seems to have an injured/infected eye just like Circe so I'm just going to keep the girls. Thought everyone would enjoy knowing 
http://i.imgur.com/GEmAOvW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gYAywyv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zUNP7vK.jpg


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## nanashi7

Boys have not found a home. Another I'm-just-going-to-stop-emailing-you deal. Through a rat facebook group no less.

If anyone is out there reading this, I have two boys available. Willing to drive considerable distance.


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## morgang23

I wish I could take them, but being in a different country kinda makes that very hard!!


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## Daniel

nanashi7 said:


> Boys have not found a home. Another I'm-just-going-to-stop-emailing-you deal. Through a rat facebook group no less.
> 
> If anyone is out there reading this, I have two boys available. Willing to drive considerable distance.


Wonder if maybe someone here can foster them? When I met with zurfaces, she said she had several she was doing that for. Unfortunately, I am filled to capacity since I finally threw out the bird cage that Butterscotch chewed a hole in :/

I also suggest starting a new thread on here (where we don't post anything else) for just the two boys - maybe the size of this thread will scare new readers off. 

There is also still CLs and petfinder.


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## zurfaces

I second daniel in saying make a new thread. If that doesn't work try craigslist but charge 30 dollars for both of them. 

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## mistymornings18

What darlings. I'd take them if I were closer lol


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## zurfaces

Also try earps or any other small animal rescues. I am going to foster for earps as soon as my current girlies pass. I already have one earps foster rat. 

I feel bad that I didn't take them but my personal life is all whack right now and I'm not sure what my future living situation will be. 


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## nanashi7

I'm fine with keeping them; I'd rather that than bouncing around homes or using a shelter. They could live forever here, while other rats are not so lucky in homes.


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## Auvreathem

The girls are doing fine, and their personalities are getting really prominent. 
Eos is the craziest rat I own easily. I have never seen a rat that is as obsessed with height as she is. She has literally climbed to the top of everything I own. No idea how. She has scaled a whole lamp, jumped up on a high shelf, and climbed my coat all the way to the top of outside my closet. She also likes jumping off of those things which scares me...
Chara is an absolute shy sweetheart. She likes to just watch everyone do stuff they aren't supposed to. She loves riding on my shoulder and is just so adorably sweet.
Peony seems to be the bridge between these two. She definitely knows how to get into trouble but she also is very sweet and loving. She also likes to ride on my shoulder.

All of my babies are getting along, and it's awesome seeing how they live together. The 3 girls do seem to be staying small so tomorrow I'm going to line my big cage with chicken wire because I feel horrible leaving them in the tiny cage. So sorry for keeping your cage for so long, zurfaces. I'll text you to plan out when I can get it back to you.


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## Auvreathem

Of course as soon as I brag about chara, she gets into trouble.
One thing I wanted to bounce off of you guys though is a training technique that I've been using. I really like to free range my rats but they often get into stuff and I've started squirting them with a bit if water, like a cat. They actually seem to be responding and staying away from the things I want them to. Is this cruel? I figured if it is liked by the cat community, it should be alright with rats


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## nanashi7

I've used vinegar water on rats; mine didn't respond after the novelty of it wore off but I do not think it is cruel. I'm glad to see the rats are doing well; poor Eos is gonna be a demon if she ever gets a growth spurt. Chara had that cute tendency (I like to think it is because she is a fluffy dumbo) then would be a bit mischievous when my back was turned.


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