# Rat Mourning and emotions, is it what we think?



## Kiko

Before I step on toes, I want it to be clear this post is PURELY based on curiosity, and the true scientific behavior of rats. Not the way we tend humanize them (That is not meant to be offensive in any way, but we really do humanize our pets)

I understand many of us here like to think of our rats of having certain feelings that I have always been doubtful of. 
one in particular is mourning, do rats REALLY mourn? I heave heard all kinds of things from "They miss their friend and sister, they can't cope!, they are so depressed"

but can rats actually even form connections like that? rats bond to their pack/hoard/misheif thing, but the forming of connections such as friendships is a very advanced feeling that has been shown to only really occur in animals like Chimps, and elephants (and more I can not remember).

So when a rat dies, and it's only cage mate appears forlorn what is really causing it?
Is it the suddenness of being alone is confusing?
Is it that rats so used to being with another rat are shocked when they are separated suddenly?
Is it just us THINKING they are so very different because we want to believe our rats think like us? Like a bit of a placebo effect, because we think they should be depressed, we think they are, when they really just might be acting different because WE are not used to seeing them alone?

I am very curious as to a rats real ability to form the advanced connections we think they form.

Part of the reason this is such a curiosity, is because when I take 1 rat from the group for a few days to be hospitalized or in the sick cage, the other rats act no different. And when rats have died, I saw no real change in behavior.

When mother rats are separated from the babies, no connection is formed a mother rat does not become depressed when her grown baby is taken away, sisters and brothers do no become sad when they are separated.
When a mother rat is separated from her NURSING young I can see it being stressful due to hormones.

Because sometimes I wonder if I am a non compassionate owner, because I don't think they are depressed when rats pass, I don't give them extra love and treats, I don't let them say 'goodbye'.
The only things I do such as a burial ceremony and memorials are solely for my benefit.
While I do like to think my rats are plotting deviously, love their cage-mates as freinds, mourn losses, and think of me as mommy, I know that it is just me humanizing them.

Because I admit I find a little silly when people are sad because their pet did something "When they KNOW it would upset me" or make up silly preferences like favorite colors and music, and assume their rats won't be rats because "MY rat would NEVER do such a thing as bite my dog or guinea pig!" 
It amazes me the things people will do because they assume animals think exactly as we do. To me rats are rats and not people, they are to be cherished and loved and cared for, but it is vital to not forget what they are, because in the end that can only hurt them.
Like I said this is all a scientific standpoint, and at the end of the day as long as we are not OVER humanizing them to the point that they can't be rats, then we can think whatever we want.


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## Kinsey

I agree with the last paragraph but the rest I have some disagreement with. 

Mostly, that from what I see, rats form intense bonds. Between each other, but especially to humans, and certain ones. My rats see me as a friend and they appear to love me very much- they groom me, cuddle with me, and (to my dismay) occasionally mark on me.

I also think that were one of my rats to die, the others would be miserable. The complex social structure would be out of whack and they would really, truly miss the lost companion. They each carry different roles in the group- Snitch is the dominant, he is big man and he is also quite lazy. Romeo is the lover of the group (ironic I know) and he is always loving something in some way...whether that's mating with it or just being a big squish. Rosebud is the playful mischevious one and she's always moving. To loose one of those would throw everything off!

...and I can't type more because I am leaving for a trip. :3


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## jorats

Have you read the book Inside Of A Dog by Alexandra Horowitz? It's a very interesting read, one that makes perfect sense and something I can totally relate to the rats.
I'm very much one of those that believe that rats are animals and completely different from us. I don't believe rats can feel as we do. But they do send signals, some with good energy, some with nervous energy and some with stressed energy. 
I've observed rats for a long time. Having only 2 or 3 rats in a colony is not nearly enough to give you an idea how rats behave. I've always had big colonies, some as big as 20 rats. I've seen some rats mourn, while others don't really care. I don't think it's a sudden loss but it's the loss of the energy of their close buddy. It's like they miss that factor in their life. For example, observing Pony and his girl Chu, I realized quickly that she is the one to have turned him into a more stable and docile rat. Before adding her to his cage, he was a highly stressed out rat. She changed that for him. When Chu passed, he went downhill. He was depressed and finally taken by PT. Now I'm not saying PT was caused by sorrow but it can have affected his immune system to the point that it was allowed to progress. 
I've seen many behaviours over the years, in all the colonies. Iv'e seen rats throw themselves in front of the alpha in order to help the weaker rat. I've seen a small female bully two big males away from an elderly incapacitated female. And just recently, only a day ago, I seen George, climb up the ladder to give a very sick Meeko a piece of romaine before going diving into the bowl of lettuces himself. 
Not all rats are like this... same as with humans. They each have their unique personalities, some we recognize and some we possibly couldn't because we are human. 
Keep watching the rats... every day you will learn something new.


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## Kiko

Sound advice 

I have a large colony as well, not as large as yours, but at my house I have 9 personal rats together and 2 fosters at any given time.
And a separate group of 6 girls. The hierarchy always fascinated me, the fact that my sweetest rat to people the queen of kisses and boggeling was a TERROR to other rats, power grooming to baldness and turning otherwise sweet rats into fearful balls of skittishness.

I will take a look at the book you mentioned, I am always very interested in the behavior and mind of animals.

One emotion I feel like I DO really notice is gratitude. I don't know if my mind makes it up, but when Cleo (the lowest rat on my female hierarchy) is being tormented by the Alpha Peaches for extended amounts of time, i'll take her out to be with me in peace, and I swear she boggles 10x more then she normally would. 
The intelligence of animals is truly fascinating.
Tomorrow Peaches, and the 2nd Alpha Bono are being put to sleep due to age/cancer and I wonder how this will effect my colony. I guess this would be the prime time to observe.


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## ratjes

When only one rat survives I thin that they do t depressed because of loneliness, kinda like having a lonely rat.
I didn't see any grieving as long as there was still a cage mate. When the one but last died I saw a decrease in social contact with me, lethargy and way more sleeping.
I gave her to her breeder who gave her a few youngsters for company and she perked up right away.
So I think it has more to do with being an only rat than grieving for a particular mate.
My two remaining dogs saw the other two after they had died and they never showed any sign of grieve.
When one was in the animal clinic for several days, the others always checked my car after I got home. It looked like they missed their pack member.
I do think rats and dogs will benefit from seeing their friends after they die.


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## lilspaz68

Rats are definitely animals, no doubt about it and don't do things to spite us, just by being rats LOL. They do have a lot of similarities as well.

I have seen bonded pairs come in and then when they had a choice made all new friends. I have seen mom's relieved when her babies were gone, and others got very quiet, and sad "depressed", and even anxious when the babies started to leave. I have seen true bonded pairs and you cannot split these rats up...ever.

As for losing a cagemate...depends on the rat on how they react. Younger rats are less likely to seem sad, older rats more likely, and then there is each rat's specific personality. I also don't think it has anything to do with the last rat being alone but I have seen 2 out of 7 in a colony grieve for a close friend, while the others just went on with life.

I have experimented with showing rats the body after they were pts, some tried to climb over the body to get to me, others were very serious and would sniff intently at the face and body of the lost companion. I found these particular rats would be very repressed for several days. I don't show the body anymore, I find that they get over it faster when I don't. As for sickly rats, I am sure the cagemates know LONG before us that something is wrong/fatal.

I also have seen some incredible things, recently a very wee sick girl jumping on her bully sister to stop her from harrassing my old blind Tepeu (who was shrieking). Jill is very thin, very sickly, but she put her much bigger sister down, and let her know, that she should NOT do that to her new friend. She did it over and over and sometimes nasty Kelly took it and left Tepeu alone. I have seen sick rats being cuddled up to with a companion in their hammock, and the companion refused to leave them even for Out time (normally this rat was first at the cage door and leaping into my arms as soon as it was opened.


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