# Lets Change the deffination of a Service "Animal"



## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

*Lets Change the Definition of a "Service Animal"*

Back in 2010 the law was passed which changed the definition of service animal it states:


> Effective March 15, 2011, “Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not service animals for the purposes of this definition. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the individual´s disability. Examples of work or tasks include, but are not limited to, assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to the presence of people or sounds, providing non-violent protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, assisting an individual during a seizure, alerting individuals to the presence of allergens, retrieving items such as medicine or the telephone, providing physical support and assistance with balance and stability to individuals with mobility disabilities, and helping persons with psychiatric and neurological disabilities by preventing or interrupting impulsive or destructive behaviors. The crime deterrent effects of an animal´s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”


http://servicedogcentral.org/content/changes


What many people dont know is that after this ruling, many animals lost their rights to be called a service animal. This included Miniature horses in many cases, birds, rodents, and pigs. There are countless stories of "Non-traditional" service animals who have since this lost their rights. As many of you know, I had gotten Chase certified as an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) with no intention to stop there. I knew my rights, and I know the law. But I did not plan of stopping his training there. 


"Why would you want a rat as a pet? They are dirty, gross, and stupid!"
"It's a rat! They can't be service animals. How could they possible help people? They are gross"
"Well, is he trained? Does your rat potty on command?"
"They aren't going to change the law for a rat" 


Well, he is trained. 
He is trained to only go to the bathroom in his litter or outside. 
He is trained to redirect my attention when I pick at my skin due to nerves when i'm in public. 
He is trained to get my attention when I become unstable due to my emotions and snap me back to reality. 
I did this on my own. For myself. Yes. He is trained. By me. For me.








This is Chase doing HIS JOB as my certified ESA. After moving into my school's apartment I had a lot of unpacking and settling in and a lot of things to do. I got so overwhelmed and upset and scared due to circumstances that came up last year. I was afraid to return to school. I had so many emotions and triggers and emotions resurfacing and he and he stayed with me doing this, his job for 2 hours until I calmed down. He normally wants nothing to do with me unless I need him. He'd rather run around and explore. But when he has his harness on, or when he is out with me, or when I tell him I need him (even though he is deaf) he knows its time to work and he does his job so well.


This is why I want to push that limit if even at a state level. Chase helps me, and shows me he has the capacity and ability to do more. Which is why I want to fight and see if I can get him into the training programs as a psychiatric service animal. Even though it states just dogs, what is really the difference between a dog and a rat besides shape and size? If a rat can be trained to do all the things that a dog can do to qualify I think it should count. Call this a social experiment or even trying to expand the "limitations" but I think that that ruling is entirely unfair. As I have stated before: I would have gotten a qualified service (yes SERVICE) dog, but my mother does not allow me to get a dog even if it was for my well being. 


So, I'm going to fight for this. Its worth a shot. Not just for me. But for everyone in my situation because I don't think people want to even understand how debilitating and life altering a mental illness can be, and how unfair our justice system and even society as a whole is for those who are suffering from one. There are disabilities you can't see. But, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't as serious or life threatening. Take into the recent death or Robin Williams. He died if a suicide yes? But thats not entirely true. He died from depression. Think of it like cancer. Cancer doesn't kill, its usually a secondary thing cause by the cancer that kills. But no one says "Oh they died from a pulmonary embolism or the flu. No, they say "Oh they died from cancer"


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## CleverRat (Mar 9, 2014)

I totally agree. That sounds amazing what you taught your rat to do and hopefully other rats can be trained to do the same thing and, eventually, be service animals.


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## deedeeiam (Apr 8, 2014)

ClassicFAIL said:


> What many people dont know is that after this ruling, many animals lost their rights to be called a service animal. This included Miniature horses in many cases, birds, rodents, and pigs. There are countless stories of "Non-traditional" service animals who have since this lost their rights. As many of you know, I had gotten Chase certified as an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) with no intention to stop there. I knew my rights, and I know the law. But I did not plan of stopping his training there.


I'm pretty sure they never HAD the right to be called Service Animals. People started abusing it too much, so they had to define the laws better. 

Pets are not, nor should be classified as service animals. Service Animals are _highly trained_ and certified by reputable organizations. Most service animals spend more time training than your pet rat will spend being alive. Yes, your pet rat works for you, and that's great. But it doesn't meet the requirements for a service animal. 

Lastly, businesses need to know what is acceptable and what's not. If you open it up to all the ESAs, then no one will know who is legally allowed and who isn't.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

http://kingsriverlife.com/06/18/service-animal-rats/

Pigs like horses were trained as stability animals but the latest additions to the ruling state that all barn yard and "wild" wether it be domesticated, are not allowed

rats and birds were commonly shouldered as detection animals since they were small and light weight enough to be carries and could feel sensations before their owners could. Many people chose pigs because they were hypoallergenic. I am not speaking about my animal just explaining that my and many other animals possess the ability, but since the law changed it kinda messed some people up who already has these animals go through training and had them OFFICIALLY certified in most cases. (I guess now you'd shoulder a toy poodle or something)

I am no longer speaking about Chase as a pet. He was never intended to be just a pet. He was intended to be part of my recovery. A service animal. He is the beginnings of a PSD http://psychiatricservicedogs.pbworks.com/w/page/19684824/ESA vs PSD which I had been working with him from the get go since like I said. I had no intention of him stopping at an ESA... or if he was he would really help me, more then just a pet would. I was not looking for a pet.

I am not speaking about ESA's I am speaking about CERTIFIED assistance animals, Guide animals, Stability animals, not Emotional support and therapy. Those can be any species. I'm talking about working class animals.


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## inod3 (Jun 13, 2014)

There's always going to be a balancing act between providing for those who are helped by a service animal and those for who it causes issues. Someone would probably benefit greatly by taking their cat with them when they get their hair cut. Someone else would probably break out in hives if someone else brought a cat into the hair salon while they were getting their hair cut.

At the moment, the balance is basically they limit the type of pet and only permit animals trained for non-emotional support disability. Most people think of guide dogs for the blind when they think of a service dog, for example. But obviously it could be other disabilities as well. You could argue, and you would have a point, that someone with a severe enough emotional disability could be stuck in their home the same as a blind person without the use of an emotional support animal. But, that's where they balance it at the moment, and I understand the need for the balance.

Emotional support animals basically have two large obstacles to get around. The first is the abuse. Let's face it, it is easy to get a doctor's note. About as easy for me to get a medical marijuana referral. You could question whether those are legitimate doctors, but they do hold the legal title and have the education requirement. So there are a lot of people who get their pet certified as an emotional support animal that really have no disability, emotional or otherwise. For travel, to get a pet into pet-free housing, or under the mistaken idea that it gives them legal right to take the animal wherever they want. The public perception is largely based on that group of people when they think of emotional support animals. They don't see the owners as emotionally disabled, but rather as selfish perhaps slightly sociopathic people who perceive themselves as above others. The second is the training requirement - much higher for a service animal vs. an emotional support animal. That isn't to say there aren't emotional support animals trained better than your average service animal, just that overall the service animals are highly trained and emotional support animals have little training. You'll see people complain about emotional support animals barking in public places for example, while a service dog is trained not to. Again, public perception of service animal vs. emotional support animal.

Probably, what would need to happen to open up service animals is to somehow reduce the abuse while toughening up the required training of the emotional support animals.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

You guys are missing the point... I'm not talking about pets and ESA's all i stated was that I had not intend chase for be an ESA. I wanted to try to take it further and see how the ruling for a service animal were in my state. But again only dogs. The debate isn't for ESA's in public... it is for *ALL animals to be giving an equal opportunity to help their handlers as service animals*.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

First of all I had a seeing eye dog that failed out at the very end of the program. He had a tattoo in his ear and that meant he could go anywhere I went. Whether I was blind or not. He was a legal seeing eye dog and had free access to everywhere. His license was also free. He was a very highly trained dog and very unlike any other pet dogs I've owned. 

As to rats, I pretty much like rats non status... No one is legally required to let us in, but on the other hand no one is legally required to keep us out. Rats aren't defined as pets, so no pet signs don't actually apply to rats.... It can be frustrating however, out bank branch changed managers and after 3 years our rats aren't welcome anymore... so we are going to change branches or even banks if we have to, we don't leave our rats in the hot car to humor some bun head with her underwear on backwards... There are plenty of banks more than happy to take our money that like well behaved rats.

Passing too many laws may actually make it harder for those of us with shoulder rats to get into some places... because then businesses would have the excuse that my rats aren't certified... Right now my rats don't legally exist, which has worked to my benefit more than it has been a handicap.


I suppose I can support broadening the definition of service animals as long as it doesn't screw shoulder rats in general. I also might add that Fuzzy Rat was brilliant and every bit as smart as most of the dogs I've owned, but when it came to training and self-discipline nothing came close to Teddy our seeing eye dog. You couldn't even walk him on the wrong side with the wrong hand.


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## deedeeiam (Apr 8, 2014)

ClassicFAIL said:


> You guys are missing the point... I'm not talking about pets and ESA's all i stated was that I had not intend chase for be an ESA. I wanted to try to take it further and see how the ruling for a service animal were in my state. But again only dogs. The debate isn't for ESA's in public... it is for *ALL animals to be giving an equal opportunity to help their handlers as service animals*.


I think we understand what you're saying, but I just disagree with you. I don't think all animals should be allowed to be service animals. It puts an unreasonable burden on businesses that have to comply with laws. It's unrealistic for all animals to be service animals. Most do not have the mental capacity needed to fulfill the requirements. And lastly, managing a certification system for that many different animals is impossible.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

deedeeiam said:


> I think we understand what you're saying, but I just disagree with you. I don't think all animals should be allowed to be service animals. It puts an unreasonable burden on businesses that have to comply with laws. It's unrealistic for all animals to be service animals. Most do not have the mental capacity needed to fulfill the requirements. And lastly, managing a certification system for that many different animals is impossible.


This is why you have the same seletion processes and training programs thwt dogs go through. They all go through the same training and behavorial assessments. As rat daddy stated. Not all dogs make it in training and we can assume that not all animalswill either. It just opens up more options for people who can not accomidate a dog


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## nanashi7 (Jun 5, 2013)

Some options I do think are ridiculous to hold business to accept - mini horses always threw me. You really are going to have it in the store? restaurant? Pooping in the city?

But birds, rats, dogs, cats, ferrets, and even some lizards should qualify. I knew someone with an iguana ESA. 

I'm in the same boat as you. I have many rats and birds and a dog so another big pet is not feasible at this time. But I can't grocery shop. I can't go to the doctor. I can barely order drive through - can't order much else. Can't even call places. Since my boyfriend can't be available all the time to hold my hand I need something to keep me calm and to sense when I'm getting close to an emotional break or panic attack. Panic attacks simulate heart attacks and can be very serious if you pass out.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

I created a facebook group. Since Chase is allowed on campus I will be using him as a "spokesperson" for this cause. Reason being everyone who meets Chase falls in love with him. My mother who is terrified of rodents of any kind said to me that she sees how he can really change the way people view rats. She "doesn't like his paws or his tail, but he sure is cute."

So please Like this page and pass it along if you support us great! If not please dont hate, All we can do is try and raise support and awareness. Many people do not realize that this had happened and it affected many peoples lives.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/We-Love-Chase/515307175270203


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My seeing eye dog was trained to poop in my kitchen, on the floor and we kept him outdoors and stayed with him 24 x 7 and he didn't break training... Seeing eye dogs are trained with electro shock, and untraining him for this one think was just as brutal. When you see a seeing eye dog, you really have no idea what went into that animal, in terms of training, love and brutality to make that dog what it is... My dog washed out because he stopped liking humans, otherwise he learned all his skills... And by the way, indoors seeing eye dogs are only allowed to stay under the kitchen table until needed, they aren't allowed to roam the house without a lead. I can go into more detail, but for the sake of folks that have and need these animals, I don't want to say any more on the topic. Keep in mind if a seeing eye dog screws up, his owner can be killed, this is serious business.

I've trained 3 true shoulder rats and none should be considered to be anything like seeing eye dogs... they needed their handler to keep them safe, not the other way around. 

While I agree that some rats, the true shoulder rats should be permitted to go places with their owners, I remain doubtful that there will ever be enough true shoulder rats out there to make much of an impact on the service animal "industry". And in the cases where owners depend on their rats for emotional support I can see things going very wrong very fast....

Not only is there a rat scurrying around under the shelves of the supermarket, while some rat phobic is having a heart attack, but the handler is having an emotional reaction to losing their support animal. Talk about a clean up in isle 7. 

When I was working with Fuzzy Rat, I was working with one of the most competent true shoulder rats you could imagine, but she had a weakness for wild boy rats and she would disappear and go exploring on her own, even though she came back, consider where this would leave someone that was depending on her for emotional support... Heck, watching my rat disappear into the shrubs or through a fence made me nervous, even though I knew she would come back and I deal with stress pretty well. 

Let me be entirely honest, even if I didn't hold rats to nearly the same standard as seeing eye dogs and I took into account that the owner's disabilities didn't hamper them from being good rat handlers, and I trained them personally and tested and qualified the rats, I'm guessing that there would be less than a hundred rat/human teams that I might certify in the US today including my own two shoulder rats. 

When you have a special rat like Chase and you have developed your handling skills it really gets pretty easy. And you start thinking that everyone can do it, then you get a rat like Amelia or Curly and reality sets in and you are climbing trees, or digging holes or dashing across streets to recover a panicking rat... and your outings become edge of your seat paranoid adventures.... and that, only if you are really good at rat handling; if you aren't or you screw up just once, you come home a rat short.

Cloud and Max passed all of their tests, but I may never see another rat like Fuzzy Rat in my lifetime and Chase and Naydeen and Wilder may be the only rats like themselves their owners are ever going to meet... True shoulder rats are rare animals, those exceptional ones that could be ESA's are even rarer, and the standards have to be set even higher if their handlers have special needs. I have never trained a rat I'd send out with a blind person or a person who is likely to have a panic attack if something goes wrong.

Rats are amazing animals, and there are a few that are truly exceptional, and have very few limits... but this has to be thought through carefully... Certain rat/human pairs deserve special treatment. But handing out certifications is another story entirely. 

With the possible exception of the Manhattan Rat Cowboy and a very few others, I've trained more true shoulder rats than almost anyone on earth.... I support shoulder rat training and ESAs and rats as support animals depending on the circumstances. I also recognize that there are certain very special rats that should not be limited by convention and handlers and trainers with superior skills, but I have no clue how to certify the special teams that should be certified and keep people and rats that should not be certified from turning the program into a 3 ring circus. One clean up in isle 7 going viral and rats might be banned as pets entirely... and for sure, I would not want to be the person who certified that team.

I'm not saying rats as support animals or ESAs can't be done, because it can... I'm just not clear on how to proceed without making things worse for everyone when things go wrong.

For now, I think Chase and Naydeen should be out there making friends and advocating for rats like Fuzzy Rat did. But before we take the quantum leap to try and change the law, we need a better plan than a few super rats that can do amazing things leading normal rats with emotionally challenged owners into big trouble.

Before I get behind the concept, I would need to hear a plan that I could honestly support, mostly one that doesn't get rats killed and their owners more stressed out than they already are...

So I'll get on board when I see a course and a destination... until then, I think that's the first priority... Let's get a plan everyone can support.


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## RadiantRatties (Jul 28, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> My seeing eye dog was trained to poop in my kitchen, on the floor and we kept him outdoors and stayed with him 24 x 7 and he didn't break training... Seeing eye dogs are trained with electro shock, and untraining him for this one think was just as brutal. When you see a seeing eye dog, you really have no idea what went into that animal, in terms of training, love and brutality to make that dog what it is... My dog washed out because he stopped liking humans, otherwise he learned all his skills... And by the way, indoors seeing eye dogs are only allowed to stay under the kitchen table until needed, they aren't allowed to roam the house without a lead. I can go into more detail, but for the sake of folks that have and need these animals, I don't want to say any more on the topic. Keep in mind if a seeing eye dog screws up, his owner can be killed, this is serious business.
> 
> I've trained 3 true shoulder rats and none should be considered to be anything like seeing eye dogs... they needed their handler to keep them safe, not the other way around.
> 
> ...


How did you untrained your dog to poop in your kitchen? Jw


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Let's just say it was the most extreme thing I've ever done to an animal I cared about after 3 nights of sitting outside all night with the dog and no sleep and there being a mess in the kitchen that only a nearly 100 lb dog could make... after 3 days of not pooping or peeing...

Of course I didn't permanently injure the dog. But I really don't believe in such extreme methods... ever. I had a long chat with the trainers at the center and they told me how they train the dogs in the first place... and for the sake of folks that need seeing eye dogs, I won't go into it... Apparently he had been a pet shop donation that never had a real bond with humans and the extreme training sent him over the edge and he couldn't bond with his intended blind human. A seeing eye dog can wash out literally on his last day in the program.


This isn't a happy story... and I don't know how it ended. My point was that rats can't or at least shouldn't be trained like these dogs are and that they should never be classed in the same category with seeing eye dogs.... When you see a seeing eye dog, know and be very certain that that dog has gone through absolute h**l to be where he is. That dog deserves respect and kindness and most certainly legal protection. He's earned it!!!

No disrespect to that amazing rats I've known and that are represented here is intended or implied.


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## bloomington bob (Mar 25, 2014)

Maybe there could be a narrow ESA certification program that focused on overcoming restrictions on rats re living situations only.


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## deedeeiam (Apr 8, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> My seeing eye dog was trained to poop in my kitchen, on the floor and we kept him outdoors and stayed with him 24 x 7 and he didn't break training... Seeing eye dogs are trained with electro shock, and untraining him for this one think was just as brutal. When you see a seeing eye dog, you really have no idea what went into that animal, in terms of training, love and brutality to make that dog what it is... My dog washed out because he stopped liking humans, otherwise he learned all his skills... And by the way, indoors seeing eye dogs are only allowed to stay under the kitchen table until needed, they aren't allowed to roam the house without a lead. I can go into more detail, but for the sake of folks that have and need these animals, I don't want to say any more on the topic. Keep in mind if a seeing eye dog screws up, his owner can be killed, this is serious business.


I'm not sure where you got that dog from, but there was no way in heck it was trained by Seeing Eye unless it was in the 80s or something before I was born. Whichever organization passed that dog off should be shut down. Seeing Eye does NOT use shock collars or do location-specific training potty training. They do train to the "Park it" command to use the bathroom whenever the command is given. I've been at their facilities and witnessed and participated in the training first-hand. They also use a release command. If the harness is on, they work. If the harness is off, they can be dogs. My best friend all the way through school and beyond was blind, as was his sister...and most of the people I hung out with. The dogs are free in their own homes unless on the harness.


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## ClassicFAIL (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm not just speaking about rats. or even seeing eye animals more for the psychiatric and seizure animals. If you can get the handler to respond to a certain que, and in a sense this animal will guide the handler to a safe location just as shoulder rats are "trained" to point in the direction. It may work for some people and in terms of assistance animals. You can have rats in the side/saddle pouch of a wheel chair to assist with retrieval aspects. I am not speaking just for rats i'm taking about birds, cats, rats, etc that were used prior and had lost their rights. Not every animal would be suited to every job but they should have the chance if they showed the ability... that is what i'm trying to say.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

deedeeiam, You are correct, we got Teddy at the seeing eye in Morristown NJ back in 1981 or 1982. Seeing eye dogs were trained to go to the bathroom in a large litter box in the kitchen that their blind person could empty into the trash. No litter box meant the kitchen floor was the next best thing. I talked to the trainers about litter box re-training and no one mentioned the "park-it" command. The only thing they told me was "dogs aim to please..." Which was likely the most useless information I got from them at the time.

I suppose it would be nice to believe that training methods have become more humane. So, I'm going to do just that.

ClassicFAIL, I do love your enthusiasm. And I don't mean to discourage you. Formulate an actionable plan that I can get behind and you've got my support.... Rats should only be limited by their abilities and we should all do what we can to make our rats more competent. But we've got to do it without getting them killed or lost... that's the hard part.


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## deedeeiam (Apr 8, 2014)

Rat Daddy said:


> deedeeiam, You are correct, we got Teddy at the seeing eye in Morristown NJ back in 1981 or 1982. Seeing eye dogs were trained to go to the bathroom in a large litter box in the kitchen that their blind person could empty into the trash. No litter box meant the kitchen floor was the next best thing. I talked to the trainers about litter box re-training and no one mentioned the "park-it" command. The only thing they told me was "dogs aim to please..." Which was likely the most useless information I got from them at the time.


Well, rest assured that the training methods are nothing like what you have described anymore. It's all positive reinforcement. I've witnessed the training and participated in some training. I would be willing to let the trainers work with my dog without a second thought. The blind are provided very extensive training as well before they are allowed to touch the dogs.


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## Kitterpuss (May 9, 2014)

I was browsing through some rat stuff like a good obsessive owner and I came across an interesting article that reminded me of this thread. 

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/womans-service-rat-alert-spasms/story?id=13721547


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

deedeeiam,

It was a very nice place and the handlers seemed pleasant, but back then positive reinforcement most certainly wasn't at the core of the training... it was more like choke collars under the heel of of the shoe... At least in part... I'm certain positive reinforcement played it's part too. And successful dogs most likely had a better time of it. But remember I adopted a wash out that came without me getting any real training... 

The Seeing Eye does important work, and their dogs are very highly trained, regardless of the methods and they are life and death for some people. Like I said, I'd like to believe things have changed, but whatever the methods, I don't want to disparage their name or reputation.

I was just trying to say.... that trained rats are one thing, seeing eye dogs are another thing entirely.... Both may be important to their owners, but there's a good reason seeing eye dogs have absolute legal status. It was incredibly difficult and heartbreaking to un-train my dog even to a partial extent... I'm good with animals, and 30 years older and more patient. But I don't know if I could go through that emotionally again. I did believe at the time and still do that even the dogs that wash out of the program deserve a good forever home.

It was really a case of good intentions taking me down a strange path...


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## gotchea (May 4, 2013)

nanashi7 said:


> Some options I do think are ridiculous to hold business to accept - mini horses always threw me. You really are going to have it in the store? restaurant? Pooping in the city?


Ponies can be potty trained like a dog and are often the same size or smaller. This one person that boards near us has special trained ponies. They like them better than dogs because they live longer. She wanted to steal one of my ponies for her program! I could see my pony being part of the program though. She is amazing little creature. Like a dog. Just wanted to throw that out there for the minis!


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