# Australian rat breeders



## ratluva (Nov 2, 2008)

Hi, i am not wanting to step on anyones toes here but i just really need to vent my frustration at the total lack of help out there for australian breeders. i have been a rat breeder for a few years now and observed many australian forums and breeders and am just really disappointed by alot of the breeders in my country. Many are breeding for color alone especially when a new one is discovered and while doing that not monitering health and only sharing amongst themselves, seems u have to be in the click to get anywhere here : It just really disappoints me to see breeders potentionally ruining new types and not allowing other breeders to work with these new lines. A good example is the recently discovered BEW's rather than working on the type themselves finding sick feeders from a pet shop and working with those instead. I have BEW's of my own that i put in all the hard yards and work into to finally get them just right and i find this so much more satisfying. The new potential siamese found in a pet shop and the finder charging breeders to stud this pet shop male. And dont try and express your views on any forum because you will get shot down and written off seems like over here u have to know people in the groups and share the same exact opinions or risk being a pariah. I would love the Australian rat community to be open to new people and ideas and just stop all the exclusiveness. But in saying that there are some absolutely fantastic and responsible breeders here to so i guess ill just stick with them. I am finished my rant now lol. Just wanting to know if any other people out there encountered the same thing here or in their own country? And if so how they delt with it?


----------



## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

I'm from Australia too. You get crazy people in most areas of life, and rat/mouse circles have a generous share!

The Australian rat scene is extremel cliquey, with people wanting to monopolise certain colours and patterns in order to be scene as 'elite' and make people jealous. That's just the way it is *shrug*.

I'm not sure what the rats and mice in the pet side of things in the USA is like, but in Europe they have some rodents which are nothing short of exquisite, and very healthy. Sadly, in Australia, the pet rats are of incredibly low quality in terms of health and temperament, and ironically if you want a healthy and friendly pet rat you need to go to 'feeder breeder' lines. The situation with mice is little better, in fact, the pet mice are probably even worse than the rats and even the feed lines aren't always great! I think the pet situation in Europe (in terms of the available blood) is good due to the hard work and sound knowledge of a few very keen pet breeders. Sadly, in Australia, even the most well-intentioned pet breeders are using breeding strategies which produce genetically very poor rodents. It's ironic that the breeding methods used by feeder breeders (who often really don't care or even try) produce rats which are genetically predisposed to be very healthy, friendly (they'll kill anything the very moment it even thinks about doing anything other than behaving perfectly or the moment it looks like it might have a small chance of sneezing) and highly consistent. As a formally trained geneticist it makes perfect sense to me, but I can see why most people would think that the 'pet methods' would be better. The single biggest mistake the pet breeders make is assuming that inbreeding in rats and mice is a problem... although I suppose due to the destruction of the genetic integrity of the pet lines, inbreeding now is a problem for them.

I am very proud of the genetics of the rats I produce, and I'll continue to work towards improving my lines. If you know what you're doing and you already have a consolidated line of healthy, friendly rats, it's easy (although time consuming) to get a sickly individual rat with a special trait and create a genetically sound line with the new trait. Using pet breeding strategies this takes several decades, and that's not primarily because they are reluctant to produce many litters in a small amount of time, it's the breeding structures they use. With dominant and codominant traits it's as quick and easy as pie. With recessive traits it takes a little more work, but can be done in two or three years. Expecting faster results than that with pet techniques is fanciful - depending on your standards. If you just want a few healthy, happy, friendly black-eyed whites, yeah, a generation, maybe two, you're done. If you want a line which will reliably and consistently produce problem-free animals which aren't going to pop out problem animals down the track, it takes a little longer and a proper breeding structure.

There is a great lack of rational people in the pet rat world. For some reason they seem unable to see things in perspective, and aren't shy about slamming anyone who won't blindly follow their extremist philosophies. It's also a shame that pet rodent keepers are unwilling to learn from people outside their own cliques. Such is life!  If you're open to taking blood and information from all sources, it's easy to get rats which have the best of all worlds (health, behaviour, consistency and looks) in Australia, even with the situation as bad as it is... the only exception currently is Siamese rats.

I'll probably be banned for being this outspoken. Oh well


----------



## RampagingRodents (Dec 17, 2007)

I'd just like to say,

a) Im an Australian breeder, and I dont consisder myself to be breeding sickly pet shop rats. I don't breed for colour, obviously, I strive to better the fancy, and I specialize in berkshire and blazed rats (or will be), and I under no circumstances breed unhealthy/not sound rats. And most of the breeders I know dont either, so I dont know exactly who you are referring to, but it can't be the general population of rat breeders. Obviously, there are people out there who just breed for colour, and don't care about anything else. But from what I've seen, it's a minority, and most "ethical" breeders dont support them. They dont go out there and are like "OMG BLUE RAT, LETS OVERBREED IT AND SEE IF ANY BABIES LIVE". And I swear by anything, that I do NOT breed sickly rats. One sneeze, and Im not breeding them.

Im with Sdaji (*waves*..remember me? ), I completely support the culling of sick animals from breeding groups and colonies. (And by culling I dont nessessarily mean killing as such, just removing from breeding plans etc), although I dont kill my animals, I just dont use them. And I too, am sourcing rats from feeder breeder lines, as I want to make my lines stronger. 

and b) Regarding the siamese rats, I know the guy who has them, and he IS NOT studding out the male siamese rat, it's not siamese is himilayan, it isnt a PET SHOP rat, he bought a pregnant female from a feeder breeder, therefore not pet shop to begin with, who produced a himilayan male, who he may be studding out to selected breeders, and he is to be told everything that happens to the progeny. He isn't charging people to use it either, he is having a fee, to make sure it is RETURNED, you know, like the trolleys at some shops, you put the coin in to take it, when you return the trolley, you get your coin back.

I'll probably get banned, but I'm angry that you are giving us all a bad name, and saying that the majority are crappy breeders. Maybe you should join some other Australian Forums, and see what some other breeders out there are like. So, that's my rant.

And hi Sdaji


----------



## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

G'day, Rampager! 

Purely out of curiosity, and completely off topic, how does one specialise in a codominant trait (Berkshire)? Do you mean you'll have lots of hooded and self breeders and produce lots of berks? Will you have lots of berk breeders and produce 2:1:1 berk:self:hooded? Why do you want to focus on berks? Just curious! Please don't misinterpret my curiosity as negativity 

I'm an Australian breeder too, and I sure as heck am not producing sickly rats. I am very happy and proud of the genetic health of my rats. Of course there are good and bad ones, and of course I'm generalising. The majority of rats in the majority of rat collections, including those in the hands of most of the most highly respected breeders are genetically quite poor. Yes, there are exceptions, I realise that.

I'm glad you'd never breed a sickly rat, although I think it's unrealistic to say "One sneeze and it'll never be bred". That sort of unrealistic fanaticism doesn't help anyone. I know what you're saying though, and it's good.

Not all breeders are online, in fact, most aren't. If I'm giving pet rat breeders a bad name, so be it, I think they/we deserve it. There may be exceptions and you may be one of them, but on the whole the rats in the pet community are not great. Big claims are easy to make, I see many ratteries making them, but anyone can jump online and say whatever they like, regardless of how untrue it is.


----------



## ratluva (Nov 2, 2008)

Well im glad that im not the only one that shares this opinion. And im not in any way saying that all aussie rat breeders are like this, but from my own experience many people in the fancy rat community and yes i have joined many forums and been to a show or two. Sdaji im glad to see that there are actually some good breeders out there too. ;D


----------



## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

No, you're not alone at all 

I'm not in the slightest bit interested in excluding anyone due to their inexperience. I'm not interested in joining idiotic cliques with fanatical or elitist ideologies. I breed rats because I love them and it suits my purposes. I want my rats to be healthy and well-behaved for a range of reasons. I am not going to hold information away from amateur breeders and I am not going to hold their backgrounds against them. I'm happy to learn from someone whether they're the most fanatical pet breeder or the most careless feeder breeder (like it or not, some feeder breeders have incredible experience and knowledge, some of them keen tens of thousands of rats and produce more litters in a week than thousands of pet breeders combined! Whether or not you agree with what they do, they are an amazing source of information).

If some new kid wants a pretty blazed or black-eyed white, I'm happy for them to have one, and I'd rather be able to be sure that it was going to be perfectly healthy, affectionate and never bite. Why should the best rats be held out of the reach of the kids? We're just breeding rats for Pete's sake, not developing secret technology our planet's security depends upon! A kid should be able to get a rat from a breeder, and it should come with a smile and invitation to keep in touch if any help or advice is required, not a bunch of conditions and fear-causing warnings.

People need to realise that if we're not having fun, we're wasting our time. If keeping rats doesn't bring happiness to their owners, we shouldn't be keeping them. It's really quite sad when people keep rats for reasons other than enjoying them, such as trying to make other keepers jealous, or trying to feel good about having better or more unusual rats than someone else. For crying out loud, it's just a pet to have fun with! Love it, live and let live.


----------



## RampagingRodents (Dec 17, 2007)

By specializing, I meant, I'd like to specialize is perfectly (or as close to) marked bershires, so the full white belly and even marked ankles. I want to focus on them, because I love the full colour of a self, but I love their little kissable bellies. I dont really know..

I'd actually love to purchase some ratties off you, but you're too far away and Im way up here!  But I am getting some off another wonderful fb (who's witty and intelligent. -cough-) in February, yay!  I'm also sourcing some rats from other top breeders. If I was in the city, I would focus -alot- on using feeders in my lines, but unfortunately I don't have that open to me, because I dont know any feeders around here.

Also, I apologize if my post seemed snappy last night, I have been stressed, so it was good to get my anger out there


----------



## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2007)

What I meant by being puzzled about your focus on berks is that it's a codominant trait, so you can't produce litters with more than 50% berks in them (not that this matters at all). I'm just wondering what breeding strategy you plan to use.

I understand that a berk is 'supposed to' have a full white belly, but I prefer the ones with the little patches on the belly  I also sort of like mismarked hoodeds rather than 'perfect' hoodeds. I think the 'imperfections' give them unique character and appeal. Some of the show breeders are probably cringing about that just as much as I cringe at their breeding patterns which produce unhealthy animals *shrug* 

Where exactly is 'up here'? I freight animals all over the country all the time and travel around a bit myself.


----------



## RampagingRodents (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah, I dont know that much about marking genetics.. 

Im in Inverell NSW, unfortunately.


----------



## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Believe it or not, what you describe happens EVERYWHERE.

In the US, there are LOTS of breeders, more than there should be. Some are really good breeders. Some are really bad breeders. Some are in between. Some wear masks to please the public and gain repute, but then act poorly in private when no one is looking. Some are truthful to the max, and get burned for it. It varies all across the board. 

MY personal frustration with breeders (and this is speaking as a breeder) are those who DO NOT breed for health. They claim to, but don't. Soon as the rat leaves and goes to its new home, it is none of the breeder's business any more. Soon as a rat is too old to breed any more, it gets adopted out as a pet, and is no longer any of the breeder's business. Something happens to a rat, the breeder knows nothing about it. That is NOT breeding for health. Breeding for health requires GOOD records of EVERY rat from birth to death. Without those records, the breeder has NO business making ANY claim about breeding for health.

Many breeders I have met breed "pet only". What that means is "Breed cute rat A to cute rat B and get cute babies, weeeee!" No. That's not the right way to breed any animal. Some may call me an "elitist", some make call me "stuck up", and quite frankly I don't care. If someone is going to breed an animal, ANY animal, they need priorities and they need to select their breeding animals to match those priorities. Perfection will NOT be obtained in a single step, but that is NO excuse to not work towards it, and unfortunately I have seen far too many breeders take several steps backwards before moving forward in the name of "cute". Now what I mean by all this: A breeder needs to breed for health, temperament, AND type. EVEN "pet only" breeders. 

Think of it this way: What do pet owners want most? A healthy animal that's going to live a long time, or a sickly animal that's going to die young? Healthy and long-lived. A friendly and affectionate animal, or a skittish or aggressive animal? A friendly and affectionate animal. A rat with show winning type? Most pet owners won't care about. HOWEVER what very few seem to realize, good type often translates into good health. That does NOT mean the standards are flawless, that is why it is important to research. However consider this: Poorly built hips in rats can lead to hind leg degeneration later in life, much the way poorly built hips in dogs can lead to hip displaysia. A long, narrow head can lead to more delicate and sensitive sinuses and propensity for infections. Standards are in place for a reason. A breeder doesn't necessarily have to show to put priority on breeding well-built rats, especially when good type is related to good/better health. So that said, when a pet owner wants a healthy rat, they unknowingly also want a well built rat. Consciously they may not care, but in reality they don't realize what their concern over health fully entails.

And I have seen LOTS of breeders breed for color only. And a number of breeders breeding for show quality only. Everything else placed second to show quality. THAT is not right either. Good type means better show quality, BUT winning cheap ribbons should NEVER come before good health and temperament. 

There are a lot of people breeding animals they have no business breeding. That's reality. What can we do about it? Education.


----------



## RampagingRodents (Dec 17, 2007)

I have made up a small contract which says the adopter must let me know of any health issues that arise.


----------



## 28thrat (Nov 16, 2008)

You can never know whether somebody is genuine or not in their breedings; people can say one thing and do another. When you have the most perfect line, or perfect pair, in the world it can be devastating when one of them falls sick. We are only human. It takes a lot to do the right thing- discontinue a line/breeding that you have worked so hard with. It's very difficult to find a rat with all the right qualities- good health, good personality and good type. The main problem in our country is health for the above reason, people have the perfect rats and when one of them falls sick they are not prepared to do the correct thing and leave the rat out of their breedings.

I'm only a newbie in the world of rat breeding. In this short time I've already had to cancel 3 planned litters. I had my first litter in March 08 between two of my most beautiful rats. The second was fairly recent but I've decided not to breed from this line any longer..two of these rats fell ill and one of them is very flighty. They are also very small rats compared to what I am used to. The mother came from an unknown origin and I suspect she is where the problem lies. Originally I had planned on specializing in blazed but I soon changed my mind as I was unable to get my hands on any blazed rats that weren't sick and I found other priorities.

A breeder I purchased from years ago had a beautiful line of downunder rats going. They have spotty markings and almost perfect conformation head-wise. Years later I purchased two boys from her again (same line) one of which one took part in my first litter. My first litter produced beautiful babies and the best thing about them is that they are the biggest and healthiest rats I have ever owned. Their fur is black as black, soft and shiny. I think the fur is my most favourite thing about Bianca's rats, they were always so soft and slippery. This line is the reason I decided not to breed blazed rats, I am too in love with these rats. However the one thing lacking in her line is respiratory resistance. Of the 5 rats I've owned from her 2 had fallen sick with respiratory issues, a friend of mine has two boys that had issues.

With my current litter I have been lucky enough to have three completely healthy boys. One girl lives with Sharz and is healthy, the other three went to someone in Sydney. I've been trying to contact them about the rats without any reply which is disappointing. I have my fingers crossed that no boys end up falling sick and I have planned some inbreeding and linebreeding largely involving feeder rats to see if I can improve their health. I'll be keeping most of the babies from these pairings, the others going to people who I keep in close contact with.

My other line is a rex line. I decided to specialize in rexes because, again, I was still in love with my past rexes. I think it's a beautiful type and I hope that it doesn't suffer the same fate as other lines (as far as health goes). The past rexes I owned had the most wonderful personalities. I owned three before I started breeding. Two of those three used to sleep in my bed with me- Snookims used to lye on my chest and brux to sleep. I would wake up the next morning with his head on my pillow. There was never any accidents- I had a cage on the corner of my bed. The other boy was like a little dog and he would follow me around the house.  I know this probably has nothing to do with the rex type in general but I can't shake the memory of those boys, and I feel like I'm dedicating it to them.

Apart from my emotional attachments to the types I felt they would be a good choice to work with because they are both dominant. You only need one DU to produce more DUs, just as you only need one rex to produce more rex. Blazed is difficult because it is almost unpredictable as to what you will get.

Working with varieties is fun but for some people it is far too easy to get carried away. People put variety over health & temperament and it has gone way too far. When I purchase from breeders I can never be certain whether this rat will have problems or not: it's disappointing. Even though I find the varieties I specialize in very interesting it is not my sole purpose in breeding. I never want to produce sickly rats. With my DU line I am going to try my best to improve the health of the rats, but if it doesn't help then I will be the first to acknowledge and end the line. There are plenty others out there.

I think a lot people start out with the best of intentions but they get lost among the community. After becoming a breeder my whole way of thinking has changed, but I won't be drawn into it.


----------



## Nassik (Apr 4, 2008)

It is good to see a number of Australian breeders on the forums. What I wonder, though, is if there are any Western Australian rat breeders around. I've found breeders in Queensland,Victoria, etc. but I haven't found one in Western Australia. With a little looking one can find links to the now-defunct Amberdawn rattery in Perth but it's long gone. I would really prefer to purchase rats from a breeder rather than combing the petshops in Perth. If there aren't any breeders here then I've got to find out if a breeder from another state will ship rats to me here.


----------

