# The lads keep fighting....



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

Lately, Basil and Scrabble just will not stop fighting each other. It's sudden and violent. This morning Basil had an awful laceration on his foot and testes, he had to be rushed to the vet because I was worried it was internal there was so much blood. It turned out it was another one of his recent scraps with Scrabble. I don't know where their sudden aggression toward each other has come from, but I don't know what to do!

Here's some background. Basil is eight months old now, and he's the largest of my boys. He's sweet and lovely, very rarely fights with anybody and is quiet by nature. He has this little sewer pipe in their cage that he has claimed as his, and while he'll often still share the hammock with my other boy, Toby, he's recently begun retreating more and more into the sewer pipe and only emerging for food and out time when I physically reach in and lift him out. 

Toby and Scrabble came to me together. They were a rescue pair, both somewhere around a year (Toby seems older, I can't be sure) and when I got them their old owner told me that Toby was top dog in their group. Toby was alpha, yet he and Basil only had a few scuffles when I first introduced them all, and none of them were serious. 

Scrabble is a bit odd. He never sleeps with the other two. Ever. If they're in the hammock together, he'll curl up in the newspaper on the base of the cage. Sometimes he'll just stand on the top level with both hands on the bars staring out, like he's asking to come out, and when I open the cage door he runs right up my arm and onto my shoulder. I think he thinks he's human and wonders what on earth I've put him in with rats for! 

When he and Basil are anywhere near each other, Scrabble puffs his fur out and hunches his back like a cat, and keeps pushing his hind end at Basil and screeching. It's like a peace offering or something, but obviously isn't because then Basil will run and Scrabble will chase him. They just keep fighting constantly lately, and after Basil's injury today I'm getting worried. I technically can separate them, but they don't like to be on their own so I'd rather not. They're not constantly killing each other - right now Toby and Basil are asleep in the hammock and Scrabble is lying on the plastic level in the corner on his own. But the fighting is at least a few times a day and it just seems excessive. It's always isolating one or the other of them and I'd really appreciate any advice on what to do.


----------



## ratjes (Mar 26, 2011)

Try to give them plenty of free range time so they spend their energy more effectively. Re arrange their cage and clean it extensively (vinegar or chlorine water). Remove the cherished toys to avoid resource issues.
Pu them in shallow water in the bath tub together to arrange a common problem for them.
If nothing works, considering neutering the aggressor or separate him in a cage next to the others for a while and do a re-intro after a few weeks. Maybe he'll appreciate company more by then.


----------



## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

NEUTER! Scrabble is displaying classic signs of hormonal aggression. (Scrabble is the puffy, aggressive one yes?). He's broken the 'no blood, no foul rule. For some reason this doesn't seem to be common knowledge but one thing a hormonally aggressive rat can do it attempt to neuter other rats (with usually terminal results), it's never happened to me yay but I've known others house their aggro rats with the nicer one with sad consequences.

Here is a video for reference, the bigger, white rat needed a neuter, the little black and white hoodie lived in perpetual fear of him, he'd stake out a hammock and never leave it, not even to poo, Musashi the alpha would force his way into the hammock to sleep but Euri never liked having him there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2ZPlbPzG0&


----------



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh dear, that doesn't sound good! I felt so sorry for Basil, I'd assumed the teste thing was a very unfortunate accident, but wow if that was deliberate then Scrabble is an evil mastermind. I'm going to start ringing around later on today to see about prices for neutering. Scrabble also scent marks like CRAZY. More than any male rat I've ever encountered before. He literally leaves a trail of pee everywhere he goes, like a slug trail. Thank you for that, I'll definitely look into it. I don't want to separate them, and I don't mind paying for the neutering if it lets them live in peace together!


----------



## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

It's generally considered serious/severe aggression when they start biting at the abdomen and genital area. I'd separate them for now, at least at night or when you're not home to supervise, and try some of the things ratjes suggested. It is really important that they get ample "out" time from the cage, maybe even individually. It lets them have their own fun time to burn energy and tone down the territorial issues. I don't know what kind of cage you have, but getting a larger one could really help, too. Try plugging your cage dimensions into a cage calculator at 1.5 cubic feet and try to stay at least one rat under the number it gives you.


----------



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

They do get quite a lot of out time, I usually take all three out together though, as I've also got three girls and then my oops litter, so I try to divide up my time when I get home and just let them each out for about three hours while I'm watching TV or eating or whatever. I'll try keeping them out individually and see if that helps, thanks for the tip  I can keep Scrabble out, I have done before when he had to be quarantined because he had pneumonia. He has a play cage in my bedroom that he was supposed to stay in at night, but he used to spend most of his time sleeping on my windowsill in a cat bed. I did kind of miss him when he was well enough to go back to his friends again.
According to the rat cage calculator, I could keep 9 rats in my cage, and this is actually my smaller one that the boys are in. I've made some calls - the first place wanted to charge 350 euro for a rat neutering. Needless to say, I'm still shopping around!


----------



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I got it on video, guys. Would you mind just giving it a check and letting me know what you think, and if the hormonal aggression theory still stands? Thanks! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3qBsjOGnNk&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Ratboy0121 (Feb 11, 2012)

May i ask how old he is?....if his a young rat around 8 months he could be trying to reinforce a pecking order, so it normal....but if his older or younger id try keeping them apart for awhile or if he dosnt fight with the other rats sepertate the clan into two?.......last option is nutering because you need a specialist with rats, and can cause them stress and if the op goes wrong even death due them aving a vein in the testicals that needs to be avoided


----------



## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Ah great, love videos.

(Speaking from my limited experience). Looks textbook to me, it's the puffed up fur and sidling that prompt me to think that way. Here's my old rat boy being a horrible menace for reference (by the end of a course of injectable antibiotics even the vet was crying for his castration). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2ZPlbPzG0


----------



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for the replies  

Unfortunately, as I took Scrabble and the other hoodie in the video, Toby, in as rescues a while before Christmas. I can't be certain of their exact age, but I know Toby is certainly not young and since the woman I took them from said they all came from the same pet shop, I'd hazard a guess that Scrabble is the same age. That's what has me amazed, because there's no way Scrabs or Toby are anything less than a year, possibly two (Toby is awful for falling, I've had to move them to the shorter cage so he won't hurt himself as much) while Basil is only eight months. I'd have thought him being the youngest would sort of make him alpha. I don't want to risk Scrabble dying with the op, but I don't want him living alone for the rest of his days either because I was too scared to get it done :/ PROBLEM! 

And thanks, 1a1a, your video is practically a match for the puffy fur and sidling. I've had them all out near constantly in an attempt to tire them out, but no luck. I can't put Basil back in second or Scrabble will chase him, so he has to go in first so he has time to hide in his pipe before Scrabble goes in. I just worry that Bas hasn't got much quality of life in there, he spends all day and night hiding in the pipe and only sneaks out if I put food right at the entrance, then scurries back in when he's had enough or if Scrabble moves, even if they're floors away from one another. It's pretty bad, and I'm thinking neutering is the only option here.


----------



## Ratboy0121 (Feb 11, 2012)

Babs said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> Unfortunately, as I took Scrabble and the other hoodie in the video, Toby, in as rescues a while before Christmas. I can't be certain of their exact age, but I know Toby is certainly not young and since the woman I took them from said they all came from the same pet shop, I'd hazard a guess that Scrabble is the same age. That's what has me amazed, because there's no way Scrabs or Toby are anything less than a year, possibly two (Toby is awful for falling, I've had to move them to the shorter cage so he won't hurt himself as much) while Basil is only eight months. I'd have thought him being the youngest would sort of make him alpha. I don't want to risk Scrabble dying with the op, but I don't want him living alone for the rest of his days either because I was too scared to get it done :/ PROBLEM!
> 
> And thanks, 1a1a, your video is practically a match for the puffy fur and sidling. I've had them all out near constantly in an attempt to tire them out, but no luck. I can't put Basil back in second or Scrabble will chase him, so he has to go in first so he has time to hide in his pipe before Scrabble goes in. I just worry that Bas hasn't got much quality of life in there, he spends all day and night hiding in the pipe and only sneaks out if I put food right at the entrance, then scurries back in when he's had enough or if Scrabble moves, even if they're floors away from one another. It's pretty bad, and I'm thinking neutering is the only option here.


Hmmmm a rat livingin alone isnt a problem if you spend plenty of time with him, he could be one of them rare cases were his just dosnt get along with rats anymore, my boy winstn dosnt like male rats, but his fine with younger males and females.....the older rat will be the alpha untill he is unable to keep the possision, then a young more fitter buck will fight for the place, they wont normaly kill each other, but if he the older male dosnt make down it can resort in bad injury, what i would do is look for a person who dosnt nutering in rats, and let them do it. only if they exp in it  hope it helped


----------



## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

That's exactly how it was for Euripides living with Musashi, too scared to leave his nest, even to go to the toilet. Musashi was also a rescue of unknown age (and less than perfect health). The vet seemed comfortable with the idea of operating though so off came his balls. Maybe seek the consul of your vet on this one too. There is an alternative to surgery, a male rat (and ferret) implant (like the implanon) that makes the rat infertile, I think it's called ketaloren. Mostly used on ferrets, not often recommended because it costs about the same but wears off after 6 months. Just another idea you can float 

In the meant time, I would separate Scrabble from the boys when it isn't play time. That is no kind of life for Basil (the stress of it probably won't do anything for his health either). If your cage has several levels, you might be able to put in a divider of some sort so rats can't move freely from top to bottom (just make sure angry boy lives up top).


----------



## Mrs. Brisby (Dec 13, 2011)

Whoah this sounds like how my two rats were a few weeks back-and then it happened- it went from mild scuffling to a huge fight with the bigger one biting half of the smaller one's manhood off... blood was every and he came close to not making it but amazingly enough he turned out alright after the vets sewed him up. I wish I had known  Please don't risk your littler boy! My two are now separate for life or until the big guy is fixed. He also runs around puffing and scooting against things, and bit me DEEP for the first time a few days after the attack. He has turned evil. I can not WAIT to get him fixed... I am only hoping he will be back to his sweet self he was when he was younger afterwards. Would love to know more about pros and cons of neutering from anyone who has!!! I can't hardly let him out now as it is with him in constant aggression mode. So weird as smaller rat is an angel and has ZERO hormone/aggression towards anything.


----------



## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I separated Scrabs and just as well, too - he's come down with an awful case of pneumonia. It's just one problem after another!  He on his antibiotics and I probably won't re-introduce them, he lives in my room and has a cage for night time but just free roams all day. He's got a cat bed on my window sill and he sleeps there during the day. He seems happier when he's just living with me in my bedroom.


----------



## BigBen (Nov 22, 2011)

If the hormones don't subside, and they likly won't, he's not going to be really happy till he's neutered. You could then reintroduce him to the others, and he should be fine.


----------

