# Biters



## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Almost a month ago I rescued two Himalayan rats. They were used as breeders before. They have been separated, but the female was pregnant when I got her. She currently has a litter that will be delegated once they wean. Eight live kits, I suspect two males and the rest female.

But the adults are the nastiest rats I've ever encountered. I had to get a tetnus shot when my doc saw all the bites. Bar biting, leaping up to bite while I clean cages. I started wearing gloves, and they got my forearms. 

I don't run away when bit, and he first few times I just nudged them away and eeked at them. I had planned on keeping them, but this is too much. I can't rehome them in good faith, though. I needed a stitch in the worst one. 

Do you think it's the hormones and they will settle down? Immersion is NOT an option, now that medical bills have happened. And I'm concerned they will teach the babies to bite?

Help!


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

One is a male? Or both female?

The female with babies is very likely just protecting her babies. Many mothers will go into protective mode when they have their babies and bites are common. The best way is to avoid handling her around the babies or inside the cage. Luring her out with food.

It is likely that they did not have a good life or good genetics. And then the babies may also be predisposed to aggression. 

For the adults all u can do is have tons of patience and work on trust training daily. Find something yummy that can be placed on a spoon- yogurt, baby food. And just sit and talk to them and let them eat off the spoon. 
Try to create positive controlled situations so they do not have a chance to bite you. So it does not get reinforced.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

One male one female separated. I figured that about the female. But it's so bad that I get bit by the male even when I'm just grabbing the water bottle ( unhooking it from cage). This is nuts. Will attack anything near him.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As to the girl, pretty much there isn't anything you can do until the babies are weened. Then her hormones should quiet down and you can try to socialize her. The boy may be a candidate for extreme immersion.... BUT you will need to work in a place with lots of maneuvering room, mostly for you and you are looking at at least welding gloves and body armor like a winter coat and a couple layers of sweat pants. Extreme immersion is ugly and dangerous, but having room to maneuver and back down a nasty rat gives you some advantage. I also gives the rat the ability to back away and calm down between rounds. Also take some towels and blankets with you to stop the action and help gather up the rat if he isn't otherwise ready to be handled otherwise.

Best luck.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Ok, ty rat daddy. Will try that. I've got an old puffy jacket that comes down to my knees, and snakebite proof hiking boots. That should help. Is there a post describing this intense immersion? Or just a b's to the wall version of the regular kind? Thanks for the help!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I wrote the immersion thread as kind of a flow chart... from shy to normal to aggressive rat... Extreme immersion is pretty much the parts that deal with aggressive biting rats. Unlike the normal kind your first focus is on establishing the correct social order. You are the parent or alpha if you prefer that term. 

When you get your rat in the larger immersion area, first do a diagnosis. If he's running away he's likely terrified and biting out of fear... this needs a gentle and coaxing approach, while of course being careful. But if he attacks you, then you back him down... flip him toss him back swat him or do what it takes to take charge... You have to be aggressive, but of course you aren't trying to hurt him... you can raise your voice and shout if he attacks, but don't eep or play submissive... You are the alpha rat and he's in your house now. Try and use shock and awe, more than actual physical restraint and violence.

It's important at this point to note that you only ever do this with a screwed up aggressively biting rat, and you are doing it to save his life. You never do this with a shy, frightened or normal rat.

So you are communicating all the way through and your message is that you are the leader, the parent and the alpha... Once your rat get's this, he's going to back down, some roll over and let you skritch their bellies, other's will nap on you, but you will notice the change in his attitude.... When this happens you don't stop... rather you change up your tactics and skritch his belly or let him nap on you... you reward him with as much love as you can muster for however long he's nice... 

Naturally you keep your guard up until you are absolutely certain he's understands... 

Plan for a very long session, sometimes these things go fast, but sometimes hostile rats can put up a serious battle. Follow this up with daily sessions to reinforce the rules of your household.

Immersion is always about communication... it's always engage, let the rat respond and then reply appropriately. But remember in extreme immersion it's about establishing social order too. Once your rats understand their place in your world, they will be happier. It might take a few weeks for your guy to calm down completely as his hormones might be jacked up from being aggressive for so long... as he adapts to his place in your pack his hormones will calm down too.


There are some threads that have extreme immersions done in real time if you dig back. Things seem to get worse and worse until the rat pretty much puts up his last most aggressive offense. Several people actually wound up crying because a rat can become pretty violent during his last bid at domination... but then he gives up and things suddenly turn around. It's like he gets it... and he's not really going to fight you to the death. The fights over and he submits and then you move on to normal immersion... I might add that many people have written that things turned around right at the point it seemed hopeless...

Some formerly aggressive rats have actually become total sweethearts. Just keep in mind that once a rat shows a tendency to take charge, you always have to watch for him getting too pushy again and push back before he gets out of hand again.

Rats like these make good companions for take charge humans, humans with a submissive or passive personality usually have trouble with this kind of rat. 

Sadly, we don't know why he's gone antisocial, it might be a personality or hormonal thing or it might have been mistreatment or neglect or a combination effect. How easy he will be to fix depends on how badly he's been screwed up.

Keep me posted.

Best luck.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Thank you for the clarification. I've set aside tomorrow for him. Gloves jacket boots hubbys jeans over mine. Last time I tried immersion he went for the face so I dug out my motorcycle helmet since it had a shield but I hope it doesn't come to it. He absolutely goes offensive not afraid so much. 

Not going to be a good day but let's hope he eventually gives up and becomes a snuggler. My little man is so much different than these two. 

My end game is to put one of the male kits in with my little man once they wean, then put any other males with the adult. He was seemingly gentle with the female, just hostile with people. Keep the ladies together. I'm so hesitant to put my Frankie in with the adult male, I don't want anything bad to happen!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It's so uncommon that opposite sex pairs are kept together, especially to raise offspring that one wonders what happens when you break them up... if that's what was going on with the pair you adopted. Alternatively, they could be housed together after a neuter or a spay. 

But yes, armor up and be careful... aggressive rats are dangerous.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

You know, that's a good point. They were together through at least two litters. And I had been able to touch them before I separated them. It's possible he is irate that I broke up his little family I guess. They came to me in a cardboard box together and before I had the two cages set up I was making some progress with tush scratches. The morning after was d day for us. 

Going to investigate a neuter and consider putting them back together after the snip snip. Might settle everything down, but still going ahead with tomorrow. Need to do some research I think!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I've always suspected that rats might build opposite sex bonds as almost everything in their psyche tends to have a human counterpart. And he might be upset you took him from his family... 

I prefer to give advise based on my actual experiences rather than my best guess hypothesis... But I honestly don't know any breeder who ever maintained opposite sex pairs through multiple litters, although I've heard of it being done successfully by someone somewhere... In nature rats seem to do more of an extended family thing, but that doesn't mean that they might not pair up to some extent as those extended families do have complicated relationships within them.... 

There's some part of me that would love to experiment and see how things would change if your rats were together with their pups... but no doubt it would lead to there being even more pups... at least until someone is neutered or spayed. 

In any event it's something interesting to consider.... and gives you another option.

And best luck tomorrow.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Well that was awful. I've nicknamed him hover rat. He actually launched in the air at me. Helmet ended up being necessary. I feel so bad I had to slap him down. It wasn't hard, just enough to back him up or get him off. 

We ended the night with him perched on my knee and letting me scratch his back/butt. 
And we started from scratch this morning. He only needed one swat before he stopped, but I can tell he is just waiting for me to relax. Oh boy. 

He has been making a whole lot of noises, young rat noises. Contact calls? When I managed to get him under control this morning and calm, he kept sqeaking while I petted him. Strange. I've got him in a small cage until he clears my quarantine, but I've included a pic of him. 

Yes the newspaper isn't the greatest but until he clears qt and learns to behave he can't go into a better cage yet. I'm not going to risk him in a dcn yet. Well, one half of a dcn. The females will get the other half. 

So, progress-yay!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Wild rats don't win fights by killing their larger opponents they win by hurting them a lot... striking fast and at sensitive places. A rat isn't likely to kill you, but if it takes out your eye, it's pretty much won that round of the fight. Some people don't get how dangerous a rat can be or how important it is to properly socialize their rats. I think people think I'm joking when I write "armor up"... or "be careful"... when anything is further from the truth... extreme immersion can be dangerous... and it's likely the only rat socialization method that comes with a warning label and a liability disclaimer. That said, I think the helmet is a new twist. You may have come up with a patent-able idea... the extreme immersion helmet. I can't help but admit, I'm laughing a little, picturing you in my mind all armored up wearing your helmet... 

Extreme immersion is often as hard on the human as it is on the rat. Down deep what you want to do is give your little guy a big hug and cuddle, not engage him in mortal combat. But it does sound like you have made quite a bit of progress and hopefully he's on his way to joining your family where I'm sure he's got a lot of love to look forward to in his future. Once he understands he can't hurt you and that you are going to be his best ever friend, he'll be grateful for the wonderful life you have planned for him. Some of the most screwed up rats have gone on to become absolute heart rats. And by the way, the fact that you have put yourself at risk to save your rat's life says a lot of good about you. Not everybody would go through this experience for a rat. It takes a lot of love for an animal, and no small amount of courage to do what has to be done and keep your cool and compassion while the rat you are trying to help, with it's razor sharp teeth and claws, is trying to hurt you.

I suppose, I feel a bit sad for the little guy, separated from his family, when he can hear and smell them, but now that the worst of it is hopefully behind you, you can start to comfort him and be there for him and hopefully make him feel a little less alone. It's likely to take a little while until his hormones return to normal and you work the kinks out of your relationship as you learn to communicate with each other more productively, but it sounds like you are well on your way to building that special bond.

Great job!


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Thank you, I feel so much better. This is just so stressful but I simply refuse to see another option. 

Yes, the helmet really was sorta funny. But it really helped when he got on my back and I had to let him get pretty close to my head to snatch him off. 

I'm glad to have gotten the warning and disclaimer! I don't think I would've really been prepared without it. This rat was possessed!


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Whoa that must be something. I'm happy you made good progress. Are you planning on neutering him later? It most likely would help tremendously.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You know, I'm actually like the worlds most permissive rat owner... and in a single post.. to help one desperate rat owner with a single screwed up biting rat... I got myself inextricably involved with the most extreme rat socialization method in the world.... and yes, the only one that comes with a warning label and liability disclaimer.... what a strange trip it's been! But to be honest, I've been amazed how many really terrific rat owners have gone the extra mile and endured the unthinkable to save so many rats from being put down... Still, even with the warning, I'm not sure anybody is really ever prepared. Although I think I'd rather be remembered for all of the normal, happy and fun immersions, I can't help but be very proud to be a member of a community that cares so much for their rats that they would put their own safety and well being at risk... The reason extreme immersion works is because it's done out of love and that's because rat owners really are the best!

As to needing neutering in the future...

Studies have shown that once a rat gets dethroned from being an alpha, his hormones usually return to normal. The hormone boost is what helps an alpha to get bigger and stronger and maintain his status. Once the status is gone, nature tends to take it's course and let the alpha emeritus retire in peace.

Some male rats can develop unhealthy levels of hormones which won't return to normal, but this is most likely less common than most people think. And yes, for those rats neutering is the best option. But I tend to believe that most aggressively biting rats are suffering from a social disorder rather than a health issue. And neutering won't solve a psychological problem caused by improper socialization. 

It isn't always easy to tell if the problem is a hormonal disorder or improper socialization. I tend to try and get some idea of the rats history and the age and speed of the onset of the aggression. When a rat is raised in a loving household and is properly cared for and managed and starts to lose self control at or about puberty, it's likely to be a hormonal health issue, but when a rat has been mistreated, neglected or abused, my go to is improper socialization first. I've seen some rats go hostile at well over a year old... and often this coincides with the human changing jobs or relationships and spending less time managing their rat pack so one otherwise normal rat goes alpha in the "power vacuum". Once the social order is corrected, the problem is usually solved.

Part of choosing the correct treatment for an aggressively biting rat; whether it be neutering or extreme immersion is to diagnose the problem as best as you can. You want to try and weigh in all of the factors... age, rate of onset, the human relationship and changes therein, as well as changes in the group dynamics between the rats. In this case, I think there were lots of signs of improper socialization evident.

Sometimes extreme immersion can help teach a rat with an unusually high hormone level (hormonal disorder) learn to control himself better or at least well enough to live peacefully in a mixed human and rat household, but neutering might be a better option. And sometimes neutering will help a rat with a social disorder to become more docile, but I've seen this go badly too. 

I've seen people who don't properly manage their groups wind up neutering one male after another as each becomes aggressive in turn as I've seem some rats remain aggressive after a neuter. Without a proper social structure perfectly normal rats can go alpha aggressive. 

Extreme immersion can help with rats that have a genuine hormonal disorder, but it's really intended for those with socialization and social status issues. There's a tendency to see aggressive biting as a single problem with a single solution, but rather it's a single symptom that can have multiple causes.. including brain tumors etc... So the right diagnosis is important in choosing the right treatment.

With lots of attention and love and a little bit of firm handling neutering most likely won't be required unless for the purpose of reintroducing him to girls... In any case, knowing that your rat has had social issues in the past, stay close by and hands on when you do any intros your presence as the parent will give your little monster reassurance and confidence and a sense of stability when he meets his new friends and will hopefully keep him from going on the offense, but as he's been with other rats before this may not go as badly you might otherwise predict... still be prepared.

Best luck.


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## Kokorobosoi (Jan 14, 2016)

Im leaning towards neutering, so that I can put him back with his "girlfriend" since they both seem miserable right now. But only when I am as sure as I can be that he is successfully sniped, and that I can remain in control. Once I stop having WWE in the cage every morning for feeding, then if he has passed the waiting for the swimmies to be out of his system, then he can go back with his female friend. The litter is getting closer to weaning, so I may be posting pics of them in the near future to be sure lol. But it seems pretty straight forward. Right now i can separate them like with like, so even if what i think are boys turn out to be girls, at least they are separate! lol

on a side note, do we think ill ever be able to stop the initial attempt he makes every morning? once his first attempt is shot down he gives up, so its not too awful right now, but i dont even slightly trust him like i do my frankie. who is on my head right now lol. But i handfed frankie, so thats much different.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, most likely his hormones will return to normal in a couple of weeks and he'll get used to you being in charge.. try a couple more longer sessions with him to get the bonding and communication going on a higher level.. Teach him his name and work on the come command, etc... Remember stopping the biting is only the first step in socializing him, the next is to bring him into the family. 

Past experience tends to indicate that former problem rats need a lot of attention and as he's an only rat right now he needs even more... You aren't much of a friend if you just back him down and then leave him alone... now you have to give him options and opportunities like you do with your normal rats. 

We had an interesting case of a rat that went antisocial when his owner neglected him, the more he got neglected the more anti-social he got and the more she avoided him. Neutering made things worse. After a nightmare immersion his owner started carrying him around pretty much all day, like she did when he was a pup. He never bit again and pretty much never left her side until he passed away a few months later... It seemed absolutely counter-intuitive that a rat would become hostile for lack of love and attention.... Becoming angry and bitter is likely the worst way to ask for love, but when you think about it... some humans do the very same thing. Your guy might be attacking you in the morning because he's angry for being left alone all night... maybe?

Just a thought...


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

I like the neutering idea, mostly because it allows him to be back with his little girlfriend. Neutering didn't do squat for me behavior wise. And I had five boys done. (It was a rough start in my beginner phase, and my vet told me I needed to neuter everyone. I don't like talking about it, and I really wish I could get my money back. It was a really steep learning curve.) What did help was having my Rowdy Russians in with the Roman boys who were calm and affable.

Is it plausible that, if they weren't handled well by the past owner, they went feral? I feel like if these two were housed together, they were probably allowed to breed freely and, more than likely, just had their babies taken whenever they were weaned. None of the breeders I know or have met or gotten rats from housed the pairs together, mostly so they could control the pairings and not end up with a million babies. It sounds like a mini colony going on.


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## ElectricPaladin (Jan 18, 2016)

Wow. He looks almost exactly like Melisande, one of our girls. Except that his nose is a bit sharper. Mel's got the same white coat, but with a grey nose and butt, and pink eyes.


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