# Major bullying, getting desperate!



## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

I apologise for what might be a lengthy post, but I'm desperate for some advice.

I have 3 boys: Magnus, an ageing neutered dumbo; Bundy, an intact younger male; and Bundy's intact younger half-brother Hannibal (same dad, 2 weeks apart.) Hannibal was originally dominant over Bundy when they were younger, but Bundy grew into a larger, stronger rat, and Bundy became the dominant one of the pair. They all live together now, and have done for many months; Magnus was slowly but successfully introduced to them after the females he had been living with all passed away. Magnus has accepted being bottom-rung and doesn't challenge them, and for a long time they all got on very well.

In the last 6 months however, Hannibal and Bundy have gradually begun to bully Magnus more and more. The don't kick, bite him or draw blood, so he's never been badly hurt, but they SHOVE him incessantly. They seem to be utterly obsessed with his crotch, sniffing it, washing it, and generally poking at it, and they usually lift him up by the back end by shoving underneath him; they also literally team up to ram him into the side of the cage, humping him and crotch-bothering. This upsets him greatly, and since he is much older he can't defend himself, especially in the last 3 months as he has steadily worsening hind leg weakness due to his age. He squeaks when I pick him up sometimes, I think they make his sides a bit tender. It started with the brothers almost taking turns randomly to shove him around, then they started attacking him together, and now it's almost always both of them at the same time, pushing, lifting, poking, and lately, humping. They were barbering him for a while, he had several bald patches from their forcible grooming, but that has died down quite a lot. I've had to dive in and remove Magnus a few times though for a while just so he can get a break from their attacks. They've very recently begun being possessive over his food too when he tries to eat; they never fail to try and take whatever he's holding. They sometimes even go into his favourite sleeping spot just to disturb him or kick him out. It's very upsetting to see, as Magnus clearly gets very distressed, but he doesn't do well on his own (he lived alone for a while before the girls, as his male cagemate had died suddenly and he was absolutely miserable, he only came alive again when he had new friends) so even though living alone would grant him peace, I believe he would get very depressed. 

I had wondered if Magnus being neutered was confusing the others somehow, like they're possibly not entirely sure if he's a boy and it frustrates or confuses them, which sounds silly but I'm just grasping for answers; he's been neutered the entire time they've known him. It sometimes almost looks like Hannibal and Bundy are competing with each other for dominance or something, but instead of squabbling together, they try to prove something to the other by seeing who can mount poor Magnus the most. Hannibal and Bundy are very friendly, playful boys generally, and Magnus is very laid back, but tensions are running high in the cage. They have lots of room, several separate sleeping spots and 2 water bottles, they are all healthy despite Magnus' issues with his legs, which I'm keeping close tabs on, and my partner and I don't play favourites with them. They still sleep together and groom sometimes, but for the most part, if Magnus so much as moves an inch or picks up a nugget and they notice, the brothers start on him again. It's every single day. I've had lots of rodents, over many years, but I've never had rats behave this way, with such hostility without actual violence.

I'm nearly pulling my hair out over this. Magnus is getting too frail for this nonsense. Does anyone have any advice? Thanks in advance. This is them, in happier times:


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## scarletbegonias (Oct 24, 2012)

they are so adorable, such handsome boys!

poor Magnus . have you considered neutering the other boys? or maybe getting another little girly for Magnus? how old is he?


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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

Thank you, they are gorgeous boys. ;D

Magnus is getting old now, he's past the 2 year mark, and honestly with how weak his legs are becoming, I don't know how long we will have with him as age is hitting him hard, so changing things so drastically might be too much of a shock for him; introducing him to the boys was difficult and slow because Magnus had trust issues, and I think trying to bring another rat into his life would just confuse him too much and take time he may not have. I'm not a fan of neutering unless it's absolutely necessary due to the high risks (Magnus took weeks to shift the infection that set in when he was snipped, despite taking his medicine daily) and I feel it's too brutal an op for the boys to go through when we don't even know if this will be an issue for long. It's just so frustrating, they don't seem to want to actually hurt him, but they're upsetting him a lot. I don't know if spending more time with Magnus out of the cage would help, as it's peaceful for him and he just loves snuggling in our laps for as long as we'll let him, but it might make the others jealous. I feel like we can't win right now. Bundy is trying to steal Magnus' nugget for no reason as I type.


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## scarletbegonias (Oct 24, 2012)

I see your point(s). how frustrating  

are the boys territorial near Magnus? maybe switching stuff around in the cage will shake up any territories, though this really doesn't seem like the problem. what if you took all three of them out together for play/free range time and see how hey act differently out of the cage? it may even tire the boys out. I hope someone can pop in here and offer some good suggestions for your predicament cus im stumped. :/

ive always had intact boys and they can be quite a handful when they're in their prime. *sigh*


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As rats age their group dynamics tend to change... eventually even your old alpha pack leader loses it and begins to lose challenges. It's usually a sad time for me to see a change in leadership because it marks the end of an era and the impending loss of a dear furry friend...

Not that this is precisely your problem...

I support my old alphas long after they aren't the most agile and powerful rat, feeding them first and lifting them first and yes, if need be, defending them if things get a bit out of control. 

Although Amelia was always a good-natured giant, Fuzzy Rat always stole her food. When Amelia would fight back, Fuzzy Rat just rolled over and got groomed, then proceeded to run off with her booty. Towards the very end, Fuzzy Rat couldn't barely even roll over anymore, much less make good her get away... so when Amelia got mad Fuzzy Rat actually squeaked for help... And you can bet I backed her up. Amelia looked confused when I cut in, but she got the message fast. I was in charge and I wasn't going to let her beat up on Fuzzy Rat, even when it wasn't her fault. After Fuzzy Rat passed away, I backed up Amelia until she passed away and now as Max is down-sliding I'm propping her up... 
I know it's a bit unfair... Cloud is a very nice rat, she's friendlier than Max and has stepped up to top shoulder rat status... Max pretty much only lays around in her cabinet now and Cloud is the first to come and play with and even nap on us, she's also going out with us, and she doesn't quite understand why Max still gets top rat respect and treatment. I'm pretty sure she feels she's earned it and deserves it and in all reality she has and does. But then Max had to wait for Amelia to pass away to move up and now Cloud has to wait for her turn too... To be sure, there were some fights a few weeks ago and Cloud now steals some of Max's food and the other day after a squabble, I found Cloud grooming Max's belly... one on one Cloud isn't backing down from Max any more, the dynamic has definitely changed, but as long as I'm around Cloud isn't going to get away with bullying Max, no way no how and Cloud knows I'm in charge so she knows better. They are still the best of friends overall and hopefully I'm going to keep it that way.

I realize your situation is different, but I suppose my point is that the humans are the real alphas in our pack or family structure and we make and enforce the rules hands on. And beating up the seniors is against the rules. I can't say for sure how a wild alpha rat would handle keeping order or whether he would protect the seniors in his pack, but rats are intelligent and social animals and they are smart. If you are the hands on parent or alpha and you make the rules, most will follow them... perhaps grudgingly, but all in all, if you make the rules your rats will follow them.

Best luck.


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## PurpleGirl (Oct 12, 2012)

Scarlet, yeah I have moved the cage around a few times, even changed the position of the cage in the room, it didn't change anything unfortunately. Outside of the cage, Hannibal and Bundy are very adventurous and love to explore, so they bug Magnus less because they're busy messing around, but they do go back to him now and then to shove him around and force-groom him. They have absolutely boundless energy!

Rat Daddy, I do try and defend Magnus as much as I can, it's horrible to see him being picked up and shoved around so much, and I wanted the boys to see I wasn't happy with them. I've clapped loudly to give them a wee fright, I've raised my voice, I've nose-bopped (not too hard), I've even tried 'pinning' Bundy and Hannibal on their backs for a minute to show them I don't approve of their behaviour, but they seem to enjoy it and consider it play, they get right back up and try to play with my hand or wash me! I don't want to interfere too much in their natural behaviour, and to be honest I'm not convinced my intervention helps in the slightest, but I can't always let Magnus be poked and prodded at until he cries for help either. It's very difficult. The weird thing is, Magnus was never an alpha, not even when he was with the girls, and he's always been fairly happy to submit, so the challenging behaviour seems to reflect more on the other boys. They're long past reaching sexual maturity too. I'm glad your rats are still friends, and my boys do still have times where they happily sit/sleep/explore together, it's just been less and less of late. Magnus almost snapped at Hannibal today for trying to take his food yet again. Hannibal just shoved him over. I suppose I can only hope that I can make them understand that Magnus is not their whipping boy, and hope they eventually take notice. At least the barbering stopped, if nothing else. Poor Magnus looked like a patchwork quilt for weeks!


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## ratsrdog35 (Dec 28, 2014)

Maybe if the problem is that they DISLIKE magnus, smearing pudding (or something else thats delicious) on him on him once a day will give them a newfound love for him.

At least the constant teasing and rough-playing doesnt allow magnus to get depressed in his old age.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

It might take a while to get through to your other boys not to bully Magnus, but it's about all you can do short of separating them. I wouldn't worry too much about their "natural behavior" living in a human household in a cage isn't natural for rats, it's actually a rather synthetic environment and one you both set up and have charge of... It's great your rats love and trust you, but every good mom and dad has to enforce a little discipline every now and then. I've sat down and had long talks with my rats, my rats hate long talks and will do anything to avoid them. Once they associate a bad behavior with getting the long talking too they change their ways pretty quickly.


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## Jo'nBen (Jan 2, 2015)

Love reading your insights on rats, Rat Daddy. Fun reads and I always learn something.. Thanks!


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