# Normally loving rat attacked my arm, drawing blood...



## killybutt (Nov 22, 2010)

Well, I've had Enzo since he was about 1 month old. He's always been a sweetie. He fell asleep in my hoodie, always relaxed and loves to be cuddled and kissed, always does a lot of licking. Anyway he is currently 3 months old and has taken to 'play-fighting' with my hand... where he would lightly bite and kind of straddle my hand. Normally this is fine and he scrapes his teeth on me but never hurts me. He was doing it to me today on the couch and he got a little too rough so I kept pushing him away; but the more I pushed away the more he went after me. So I shoved him off of the couch, which I usually do when the boys are getting too aggro, because it isn't a far drop and they always land fine. Usually after this they leave me alone. But this time he actually came back up, sought me out and started fighting again... when I went to pick him up the scruff of the neck to move him away he started genuinely attacking my arm, like biting me REALLY HARD in several places and drawing blood. I'm now covered in bloody bitemarks. 
I really don't know what to do. I feel like I have lost his trust with the play-fighting and that now he no longer sees any reason to be gentle with me. He has also taken to bullying his older cagemate and chasing him around. Is it just hormones? Or did I really cross a line here?


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## Flashygrrl (Feb 8, 2012)

Sounds like hormones. Since he's bullying the others as well I'd venture a guess there will probably be a point relatively soon where you either have to neuter him or separate him. You could always go back to the first steps of trust training and see what happens in regards to your relationship with him.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

the straddle of the arm is a male dominance thing...when they do that you have to stop them, even from crawling over your hand and hugging it...the licking can turn to nipping, to a full frenzy of biting.

He needs a neuter ASAP especially since he's so young. Your loving boy is underneath all those nasty hormones, and he doens't want to do these things but the hormones make him very angry. A neuter should see effects quite quickly...especially in a youngster. He's already past trust training, and needs the surgery to control these things.

This little baby 










Grew up and at 5 months out of the blue did this (no digging, rubbing, huffing before hand...just an outright attack)










But now he lives with 5 girls who beat him down regularly and he is back to his sweet loving self again 

Keiran mid-bounce...loooves to play


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

Wow, Lilspaz. WOW. That's some helluva battle injury there. I didn't know rats were capable of bites like that.


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## Arashi (Feb 4, 2012)

Whoa, okay, that seals it, not getting males!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Arashi said:


> Whoa, okay, that seals it, not getting males!


Hahaha, you take a chance with the hormone factor BUT males don't have the same issues with mammary tumours by far as females.


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## Dumbo_Lover1695 (Mar 20, 2012)

This post almost makes me regret reserving two males instead of females! But I guess there's always the option to neuter if they do become aggressive. This is a more rare situation than it is a typical one though, right?


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## Arashi (Feb 4, 2012)

I guess that's a point to consider. I've heard some intact males are quite manageable, though.


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## Arashi (Feb 4, 2012)

And sorry about the arm, lilspaz68. I've had my fair share of animal attacks.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Usually you get warnings they are going into a hormonal phase, like huffing, digging, hunched back as they run around, fur puffed up and excessive marking. Of course Keiran just had to be different LOL...most times it never comes to this, but I just wanted to make a point of why you should not let a male mount your arm, and also how effective a heuter is...took him 1.5 weeks before he was back to his cuddly happy playful self


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## LunaWolf (Mar 1, 2011)

I had a female do that to me once, actually. Still not sure what her problem was. o.o No warning, just went from playing to full on murder-mode. (Perhaps some sort of neurological problem? Idk.)

But yeah. Our Louis went through a stage of trying to take bites out of cage-intruders, but as soon as we got him neutered he went right back to being a gentle old rat-loaf.


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

It shouldn't be a deterring factor in gender choosing... females can be just as nasty as hormonal boys can, especially if they're in heat/pregnant. I have had 10 males and none of them had hormonal aggression to the point of needing a neuter... the two that did grew out of it eventually. 

I have only ever been bitten hard enough to draw blood twice, and both times it was my fault for sticking my bare hands where they didn't belong


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## Babs (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree with Jaguar. No way should people be put off getting males because of that. I absolutely LOVE my boys, and have never been bitten by one of them. I have been bitten by the girls on a few occasions, most of the time not hard enough to draw blood, but still more than I've been bitten by my boys. It depends on the rat, I think. But seriously, I wouldn't say a word against males. Most of the cuddliest, roundest, biggest kissy babes I own are males and I would never be without them! <3


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## ClaireGlynn (Dec 26, 2011)

Arashi said:


> Whoa, okay, that seals it, not getting males!


Hi,

Sorry for butting in on the thread but just had to say i have had 34 males in my life and have only ever been bitten by 1 of them once and that was down to what turned out to be a tumour in the brain, and my thumb turned out to be the only way of showing his pain to me. 
No other of all the males have ever bitten me, and i didnt have any of them neutered. With the right amount of handling, and also "correct" handing (not waking them up from a deep sleep etc) they are very loving pets, i now have 4 females and i am finding 2 of them much much harder work than any male i have ever owned.

Please please dont be put of boys they are fantastic pets.


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## killybutt (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks everyone, for replying so fast! And wow, lilspaz68, that's quite a bite  Glad to hear he's okay now!

I am going to call my vet first thing tomorrow and ask him how much he charges for a rat neuter.
Also, does anybody have advice on how I can STOP Enzo from mounting my arm? He'll come up to me during free-range time and just start doing it. It's really my fault because I would always let him. It seems when I try to pick him up or push him away it only makes him more aggressive. Thanks again.


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

ive never been bitten by a male just females! lol ive been nibbled on by my newest adopted hairless boy, but hes pretty sick and prob in pain :-/ i hope you lil guy doesnt bite again killybutt!! id think the neuter along with training might help stop that behavior in the lil turd. my female tries to dominate my hands all the time and i gently flip her onto her back and tickle her tummy and she gets the point that im the boss and shes happy again haha  she likes to trim my nails and cuticles for me all the time and sometimes get a bit rough! sometimes the squeaks work with her, other times not! i really hope alot of the ppl who read this arent gonna b against getting boy rattoes now :-( makes me sad! they are both good and boys deserve a chance too <3


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## killybutt (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh yes, I should emphasize: I have had male rats since 2005 and this is the ONLY time I have ever been bitten. Seriously! They are total couch potatoes and real sweeties. Enzo just seems to be more hormonal than most rats.


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## Iheartroxyrat (Feb 22, 2012)

hes just a lot of man/rat hehe ;-) agreed i love my boys! i love them all of course lol they all are different in many ways. i mostly meant the few ppl who commented that they were glad they didnt get males :-/


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## SillydogTheGreat (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh gosh I feel horrible. I didn't know Enzo turned out that way. Was this aggression before or after you picked up Ubo? I remember when you brought him over he had that showdown with his father Cas. Is Ubo nice or is he a meanie too? 8(


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

The short step before neuter is alpha training, before play gets out of hand grab your rattie flip him over and powergroom his belly, this establishes your alpha status and rats don't attack their alpha. Hormones are a cycle... the more dominent a rat feels the more hormones he releases, the more hormones he releases the more agressive he gets... It also works in reverse, the lower a rats status in the pack the fewer hormones he releases the less agressive he gets.

Play fighting is important to every rattie, and it's good to play along... it's also important to stop it before it gets out of hand and make it clear in no uncertain terms that you always win. Winning is defined by you powergrooming his belly.

This is a judgment call, rat bites are nasty, if he can't be played with anymore, you most likely don't have the first option I mentioned. If you can still assert yourself without serious injury you might regain control of the situation without surgery.

Best luck


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## killybutt (Nov 22, 2010)

I know I'm replying to this thread SUPER late... Enzo is now at the Rainbow Bridge, he passed due to URI complications or possible pituitary tumor around his 2nd birthday.
But, I want to say this so people know. Enzo never, ever bit me again after this. He turned into a super gentle, licky, kissy, cuddly boy. I think he went through a hormonal phase, which I aggravated through rough play, and I have since learned my lesson.
I hope this doesn't deter people from adopting males. Like I said previously, this never happened before, or since, and Enzo really calmed down a lot after a few months of his hormones settling. I miss him a lot. He really was a babydoll deep down.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm very sorry to hear about Enzo's passing, but I'm glad you guys worked it out together.


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## Pacmunchkin (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm having this issue at the moment.
I have always asserted myself as the alpha. flipping my boys and grooming them.
Lately, one of my boys (11 months) has become quite aggressive, biting a friend and hanging from her arm, biting me and doing the straddling thing mentioned above.
My partner and I will have some one to one time with him tomorrow, but is there any specific advice about gaining control?

{edit} I gave him about 30 minutes to calm down and tried flipping him again and he went for me, biting the had I was grooming him with and then biting my foot.

I never know how hard a powergroom is, any help?

Also he tends to attack me more when I've just cleaned the cage. Could this be a contributing factor?

Thanks


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

My first bit of advise is to wear gloves or oven mitts that are bite proof or at least resistant... like welding gloves... So you don't hurt... Next use force as required (with love in your heart) to defend yourself and get control, but never to punish afterwards... He attacks you and it hurts him more than you instantly... Soon he will learn that he's only hurting himself by attacking you and he'll stop doing it, even hormonal rats aren't stupid...

If he can't help himself and keeps attacking, he may be sick or have a brain tumor... that can't be fixed behaviorally. I know of one case locally, but it's very very rare. The rat killed it's roommate, then attacked it's owner then died within two weeks.


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## Pacmunchkin (Oct 14, 2013)

I hope and assume it's not the tumour. I'll spend some extra time with him today and beat him up a bit. I just need to take control as it seems to be mainly me that he's attacking; his cage mate is getting no more agro than normal.


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## Pacmunchkin (Oct 14, 2013)

today, he's been going mental at me, coming for me and attacking me all over, drawing blood.
I really thought I'd made a breakthrough because recently he's been playfighting and grooming without drawing blood.
I've got socks on my hands now and trying to calm him down.

Couple of questions:

When he's sat on my lap, he's rubbing his side up and down me and digging franticly. Is letting him do this a submission and should I knock him off?

I didn't give him a time out but when he's gone back to his cage, I've shut him in, he wasn't puffed up at the time. Should I have pushed through until I could pet him without him attacking me.

I thought that puberty would have finished by now. they're coming up to a year old.

Also, he never ever attacks his cagemate like this.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

OK, I've never considered giving a rat a time out... I've never even given my daughter a time out... If my rats get seriously out of line... I shout and it's a bop or even a smack (with kindness and love in my heat) that comes instantly when they are doing something seriously anti-social or destructive. And I don't back down from there... no back to cage and no best buddy until the rat comes back to me and apologizes. 

Sometimes rats get confused as to who is in charge, they are social animals and all of a sudden they think they are going to push you around and tell you what to do... Now my rats are always asking for things and usually they get exactly what they want, but they know better than to bite me... biting hurts both of us. To be entirely honest, I've never had to smack or bop most of my rats, but there have been very rare occasions when this procedure has fixed certain problems all but immediately. Rats aren't stupid and aren't going to pick fights they are going to lose.

You are NOT punishing your rats, you are communicating, there's a big difference... When a subordinate rat saunters up to a real wild alpha rat in his prime and bites him... for the most part the alpha isn't going to suggest the confused subordinate take a time out... he's going to tear the stuffing out of the confused subordinate until the aggressor rolls over and submits to authority... then rather than punish him, he's going to groom his subordinate rat to thank him for his submission and to say there are no hard feelings. Then life in the pack returns to normal. There is nothing you are likely to do that's going to be half as nasty as what a real wild alpha rat would do to a confused subordinate who attacked him.

Again, this isn't punishment, and it should never range into revenge or cruelty... it's just very basic communication... and you are saying "I'm in charge here! And you will not bite me or push me around!" in no uncertain terms a rat can understand. It's exactly the message a rat that's challenging you expects to receive.. unless you back down then you are fair game for further attacks.

Always remember rats are small animals and act with love in your heart... don't hurt anyone, but make sure your message is clear and consistent. Then reward submission with lots of love and treats. That's the best guidance I can give you.

Best luck.


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