# Retraining, splitting the group, Changing group dynamic



## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

The girl Im rat sitting for just mailed to say she has taken a job where she is (overseas) and she needs to rehome them. Aside from the finantial commitment of 4 extra rats...
They are messy-poo everywere, bowl tipped over

They are fat-ok they're big rats but they are flabby

One bit me so hard I bled-I think it might have been a mistake cus I was handing out baby corn at the time

They dont know thier names

Only one is friendly-I wanted a cuddly rats next

Is there any hope of re training middle aged rats?


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Advice please-REtraining*

Here they are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09DckaeOW8M

Ok Im just going to keep blabing :lol:

Sushi has a variety of lumps which are not causing any problems just now.

Mouse has been playing with my girls very well so I decided to introduce someone else. Even putting my fingers on the clips Polaris is biting me, first time my hands did smell of food but I washed them and she she is still biting me! I put a hair boble through to try to catch the hhok to open the cage she wipped it out my hands-Im glad that wasnt my finger! Ive taught my girls to be so gentle, can I teach the "new girls"?

I wanted to get a boy, would one snipped male and six females be fair?


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

*Re: Advice please-REtraining*

They look very happy and playful! I wish my boys were that energetic lol they are big lumps most of the time but occasionally run around and wrestle eachother as well as myself. They are sooo lazy XD

Sounds like she dumped them on you D: Doesn't seem fair to me. It's really up to you if you can keep them, or if you want to keep them. You can always try rehomeing them or finding a rat shelter to take them in. But they look so happy with you and don't seem that bad from the video. With work I'm sure that biter will calm down. They don't really look all that fat to me. Their cage is probably messy cause they are not used to comming out and might calm down if given play time everyday.

A snipped male with six females would be fine. I suppose the big thing is considering if your ready for challenging rats, if you have enough room for them, and if you have the finances for them. Ultimately it's your decision.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Advice please-REtraining*

Thanks for answering poppy 

Thats quite an old vid with thier owner. The are fatter now.
The nippy girl I think is scared, she wont come out the cage and nips when I put my hand near.
The others are now running round in Lola and Poppys cage quite the thing!

So you didnt really answer-
can I retrain middle aged rats?


Even if I dont keep them I have agreed to foster them untill they are rehomed


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group*

Im just gona keep useing this thread for my rescue stuf 

Im also wondering..
I would rather have 3 rats or 4 at a push so if the lady offers me one or two would it be fair on the rats to split the group when they have been living together for while? Would they be sad?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

you should be able to train middle aged rats just fine. i've done it on more then one occasion and all turned out great. 

with spilting them up: they will miss their old friends for a while but they should be able to get over it pretty easy too. just watch to see who is buddy buddy with who and try to keep those ones together if you can. if you can't though, its not likely to be a big deal so long as they have some other rat(s) to be snuggly with


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

ok that sounds ok *snatches vega for her own* :lol:
Who could resist that fat bottom?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

:lol: yes, that certainly would be hard to do! i know i couldn't resist it! :lol:


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

Fat bottom rats they make the rockin' world go round *sings* XD


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

:lol: hehe funny :lol:


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

OMG I love all those rats!! I am one who does not like to split up happy groups and if you are able to take them all I would. Remember that they are older and won't be around for a lot longer. I always try to remember that they only live a short while and that if I wait on something that it totally effects them compared to a human's timeline.

They are probably older and fatter, but I wouldn't worry about it. Polaris is the bluish/minkish one? Thats your alpha, I can tell from the video.
And yes you can retrain middleaged rats within limits. Never advisable to stick fingers thru bars of unknown rats. You just don't know what they were "taught" before.

They are about 18 months you say?


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

I was having to put my fingers through the bars to reach the door opening mechanism, they have calmed down.

I thought Polaris was the dominent one too, she is most agressive with Lola and Poppy (my rats). Lola nearly lost part of her toe last night 
Watching them all together she remains dominent and I feel sorry for Lola and Poppy. Mouse is really energetic and has allready worked out how to escape the rat area allthough my two never have :roll: 
Vega and Sushi (who has inoperable lumps) are pretty sedate, I think Poppy would remain dominent if they all lived together. 

Polaris and mouse are so active and bold I think they would do well whatever group they are in. 

I have said I will foster them and that I would take Sushi whatever happens (I think she is considering haveing her put down instead for trying to rehome a "terminal" rat). 

If she finds someone to take them all that is great.

Im not sure of their ages exactly.

Im sure a few months on normal diet and healthy treats would slim them down-there funny when they jump and climb and their bottoms keep going after they stop :lol:


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## renay (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Retraining rescue rats/splitting the group (+Vega pic)*

you know the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks? its a bunch of bull... the only problem with training the full grown version of any animal is that they're not as curious as they were when they were little, therefore not as easily manipulated. BUT with patience and hard work you'll see your efforts eventually pay off... the trick to training any animal is rewarding them with something that appeals to them, for some its food, for others its toys, even an extra bit of attention can sometimes do the trick, it really all depends on the animal and how much time you're willing to spend just trying.  good luck, its probably going to be difficult, but it can definately be accomplished!


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Ok I have another question 
If I introduce new rats to my group and a new rat becomes alpha how will it affect my previous alpha?


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## twitch (Jan 4, 2007)

she'll probably end up as second in command. they will have their tiffs on who is really the alpha from time to time and may even switch positions for a few hours or a day but that's nothing out of the ordinary.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

I think I read somewhere that in the wild the overthrown alpha's become the Omegas and that the omegas are actually in that position because they have the better chance to become alphas *digs link*

http://www.ratbehavior.org/Aggression.htm


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

"Omega avoiders are more severely pummeled by the dominant rat when encountered (Blanchard & Blanchard 1990), and if free to do so omegas are more likely to emigrate from the colony (Barnett 1975 p. 125). Omegas who cannot escape may be so severely attacked and harassed that they die (Adams and Boice 1983). However, in some cases, if the dominant rat is removed, an omega subordinate may be more likely than a beta to rise to become the new dominant rat."

"Two of the intruders were dead after 28 hours, a third died after 32 hours, a fourth after 36 hours. The remaining two rats were alive after 7 days but were badly wounded. Each of the six intruders had received an average of 48 bites (range: 37-63 bites), most of which were to the back"

Oh dear, I really dont feel comfy turning their world upside down 
They have been really skitish today. I imagined that I would get a lone rat and that the lone rat would slot in the Lola and Poppys group farily quietly.....


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

It really depends on the rat. Keep in mind what you quoted was studying wild rats and mostly males. So that is a worse case/ most feral scenerio seen in the most agressive circumstances. Females pretty much all tend to be bettas from what I have read. They do have alphas within themselves but they have the betta style personalities, laid back and not really caring where they fit in the pack as long as they are in.

I'm currently trying to figure out who to neuter. I think that is a whole other thread in itself (and my threads tend to not ever have anyone help me out through D but it's causeing me to evaluate pack dynamics. I know who the alphas are but I'm debating whether to neuter the strong and good alpha and/or Bert who has fear agression and is the alpha in another cage and would potentially be the omega if everyone was together.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

hmmm.......its confusing


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I believe once an Alpha is overthrown they do not become Omega's. They are finished within the colony in the wild, like wolves? 

Now this is a fascinating video(s) of 2 groups of domestic rats let loose in a controlled but feral environment. You can see the changes of these young PEW and black hooded rats as they revert to more wild behaviour. This film really helped me understand my pet rats more than most.

You can watch the film chapters on the left, or if you are dialup they have pics and a written description of each chapter.

http://www.ratlife.org/Home/0Main-frameset/Mainframeset.htm

Females are less aggressive overall because its a wild rats instinct to procreate and more females means more procreating. The males on the other hand are trying to have only their genes continue to the next generations plus they are the protectors of the colony.

Rats social hierarchy is fascinating even with large groups in cages.


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## Vixie (Jul 21, 2006)

lilspaz68 said:


> I believe once an Alpha is overthrown they do not become Omega's. They are finished within the colony in the wild, like wolves?



Ha, no.

Wolves rarely kill each other, the most likely scenario is the loser(be it the challenger or the current alpha) is thrown from the pack unless he/she submits.

I've only ever really heard of an alpha kiling an omega when it was stealing food from and harassing the pups(therefore he deserved it).


Domestic rats are similar in that they don't kill each other, they just have fights and that's it. It's decided. It's rare that death is needed in deciding a heirarchy(at least in animals...).


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks so much for posting that vid


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Vixie said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe once an Alpha is overthrown they do not become Omega's. They are finished within the colony in the wild, like wolves?
> ...


Oh I didn't mean killed, but they are shunned and ostracized never to return to alphahood. I think in those videos on Ratlife.org there is an overthrow of an injured or sick Alpha.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

ok I have my last silly question I hope. I think it gets to the bottom of my hesitation to adopt the whole group.

Will introducing new rats change my relationship with Lola and Poppy? Will they know it is my fault they have been invaded?


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

It might change their behaviour with other rats but shouldn't change their relationship with you Mom.


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

ok thanks *goes off to concider taking them all* :mrgreen:


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Ok so here is the final word I think...
I have adopten Sushi (lumpy girl) ad Mouse (very energetic blue) oh and a fish!

The other girls are going back to the breeder to live with their mums,
TBH it works out well for me because i wanted a blue and I wanter a cudly rat and Sushi is sooooo cuddly and well as you see, mouse is a blue. 6 rats would have been a big finatial undertaking
Vega and Polaris look sad in thier big cage all alone. I hope thay enjoy being with their mums. Mouse and Sushi are now In my cage with Lola and Poppy and the scuffles have gone from screaming horror to a few bumps around do I guess they are aquainted.
Im sad the group is split when they could have eaither gone to the breeder in queston or to me but Im happy with my four rats 
Will post some pics soon
Thanks everyone for your advice through this stressfull situation it is much apperiecated. Sushi and Mouse would say "boggle Boggle" but they are buisy jumping around with their new friends


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