# Please Help Me....Please hurry and Read! please!



## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

I am trying to save my littles boys dad.  . He has red stuff all around his nose and eyes and he isnt walking at all. hes just laying there but he is still breathing. i have been giving him water and petting him and he seems to be getting a little better but it still isnt a good situation.

Please Please Please help me here. What can I do?!?!?


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: Please Help Me....*

oh, and he looks like he hasnt eaten for a while. (hes skinny)
but his belly has gotten bigger from all the water.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Your rat needs a vet desperately even if only to determine that he is too ill and to end his suffering.

Their bellies don't swell from water, they do swell from internal masses, etc.  The porphryin meant that he was very sick and his not moving is a terrible sign. We can hope for a stroke but I sadly will bet that your rat is gone by the time you read this.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Hes survived over night and is still breathing now. I just checked on him and he cant stand up or walk. last night i moved him in his own cage and he has just been laying there since. also, i have been giving him water but i have to just put the bottle near his face. he is also blind in one eye now...(it is faded out like it would be if he was blind) and there is red stuff all over that eye.

I am thinking that it will be better just to let him go and put him to sleep.  
What do you think?


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

take the rat to the vet and see what he says it is most likely capable of being saved


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> Your rat needs a vet desperately even if only to determine that he is too ill and to end his suffering.


They wont take him in today because they are closed. 

and I am not gonna take him there just for them to put him to sleep when i have the same exact stuff they have to euthanize if needed.

i know i should take him there to c wats wrong but no meds are gonna fix this.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

If you don't know what's wrong, how do you know no meds will fix it?

Talk to your parents about taking him to an e-vet.

Last thing they want is something catching going about.


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## propithecus (Jun 29, 2007)

You need to get your rat to a vet immediately. Here's a directory of emergency vets by state:

http://www.magicyellow.com/category/Emergency_Service_Veterinarians/Cities.html

Good luck


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

fingers crossed for him


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You are not a vet. I have had some horribly sick rats that got better with meds when I was positive they were dying. A stroke can be treated with abs and steroids and the rat can bounce back within 24-48 hours...

And Matt you just said something you shouldn't have. You home euth. 
You're _done_ in my books.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

i know i should take him to a vet but he is... hes almost gone 
and there isnt a vet that will take him. i called even e-vets around here and none will take.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

......:sad:......He's...He's.....He's Gone...


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## ladylady (Apr 5, 2007)

Sorry 
hugs


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## mopydream44 (Jun 10, 2007)

i'm sorry......


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> And Matt you just said something you shouldn't have. You home euth.
> You're _done_ in my books.



<.< Ummm, sometimes home euthanization is the best way, for both the person and the rat. And I am talking about HUMANE euthanization. Theres a type of gas that is attainable and it just makes them fall asleep, plus its painless. I do know many vets that euthanize a rat by injecting the stuff into its heart, and that is in no way humane. So if he means home euthanization by the gas, I dont see why there is any reason to put a strike against him. Just my opinion though.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

savveth said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > And Matt you just said something you shouldn't have. You home euth.
> ...


Thanks Savveth, and it is Co2. The vet Near me (i just found this out today) uses the stuff that gets injected into the heart and blocks there system up and kills them. I wasnt going to pay for them to painfully put him down.

but he just passed on his own when i was giving him some water.

before he died i held him and we were just staring at each other for a little while.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Ignore this post. Mod please delete.


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

Your welcome. Im sorry about him, though. It was just his time to go. *hugs*


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

You gas them with CO2?



Ever stuck your head in a barrel with dry ice in it?

You won't do it twice.


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

He home euthanises because his family breeds and sells snakes and breeds rats as snakefood :/ This dad was a feeder breeder not a pet. Not that I feel it justifies the means there at all but it is better than live feeding.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Forensic said:


> You gas them with CO2?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You ever Had Stuff injected into your Heart to make you die?!

Which would you choose? Painful or Painless? 
Yeah, I think you might Choose Co2.

oh, and actually I have accidently stuck my head into a bucket of dry ice and water. (only for like 5 seconds though) (I know how to make awesome bombs with it, and i had to reset a dryice piece.)


And the dad may have been a breeder male but He still meant a lot to me.
He took a big part in bringing my new boys into the world.
Even before that, he was one of my favorites, even before I wanted them as pets. He was always wanting me to hold him and give him treats and scratch behind the ears. I loved the little guy and it hurt letting him go.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

Matt said:


> Which would you choose? Painful or Painless?
> Yeah, I think you might Choose Co2.
> 
> oh, and actually I have accidently stuck my head into a bucket of dry ice and water. (only for like 5 seconds though) (I know how to make awesome bombs with it, and i had to reset a dryice piece.)


Then you should know that CO2 BURNS.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Well then do you want me to start feeding live?


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

What? Where did you pull that out of?

Get over yourself.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

savveth said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > And Matt you just said something you shouldn't have. You home euth.
> ...


CO2 right? Debbie D originally recommended it?
She has since then renounced her decision onCO2 and has decided there is no humane way to euthanize at home.

As an owner it is up to you to make sure your rat is treated humanely. You have a vet who only injects without gassing or sedative first, you DO NOT let them euthanize your rat. All vets are not created equal, you are allowed to question their methods.

You CAN do things like pain meds to keep them comfortable until they pass but to actually home euthanize? Did you know that putting a sick rat in the freezer used to be considered humane until someone proved it was a terrible way to die for our rats. 8O


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

Wait....CO2 wasnt the gas I was talking about. Halothane is what I was talking about and it puts them right into a peaceful sleep. 



rat and mouse gazette said:


> Making euthanasia pain free is as simple as insisting that your pet be anesthetized using an inhalant anesthesia prior to being given any fatal injections. A fatal injection may not even be necessary if the rat or mouse is given an overdose of the anesthesia. Anesthesia overdose is also a method that can be used at home if you have a source of obtaining Halothane in your state.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

December 2006
Halothane Phase-Out 
Halothane production has been discontinued in the United States. Certain vendors still have a limited stockpile of halothane available for purchase. However, once these resources have been exhausted, ACS will no longer be able to provide investigators with halothane. Animal protocols using halothane should be amended through the IACUC so that another anesthetic, such as isoflurane or an injectable, can be used instead. 

the vaporizers not the actual drug are listed on E-Bay as"The sale if this item may be subject to strict regulation by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and state and local regulatory agencies. If so, do not bid on this item unless you are an authorized purchaser.â€

And here is the Material Safety Data Sheet on itâ€¦no way this stuff would be given to the average citizen.

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BR/2-bromo-2-chloro-1,1,1-trifluoroethane.html

So I guess we are back to there being no humane Home Euthanization method?


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## Sparker (Jun 17, 2007)

Just a couple things - 

Speaking as someone in the vet industry and VERY familiar with HUMANE euthanasia, NO RESPONSIBLE DOCTOR INJECTS THE SOLUTION INTO THE HEART. That is a method that is generally isolated to shelters, which use it to save time. If the doctor does it that way, don't give him your business.

Also, Matt, the chemical is Sodium Phenobarbital. It does not "back up the system." They die within 5 seconds of the injection, assuming it is done properly. 

I agree with lilspaz - there is NO HUMANE WAY to do it at home. 

Matt, I understand your situation and that you are a minor in your parent's home. It might be best to avoid the "feeder" topic on a forum like this. I'm sure you know that.

I am so sorry about "Daddy Rat". I'm glad that he got some love and attention in his final hours, at least.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

Sparker said:


> It might be best to avoid the "feeder" topic on a forum like this. I'm sure you know that.
> 
> I am so sorry about "Daddy Rat". I'm glad that he got some love and attention in his final hours, at least.


First off, I didnt bring up the Feeder Topic. I just said he was sick.

And Second, He always had attention, not just in the last few hours of life.
Just like all the rats in the household.


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> December 2006
> Halothane Phase-Out
> Halothane production has been discontinued in the United States. Certain vendors still have a limited stockpile of halothane available for purchase. However, once these resources have been exhausted, ACS will no longer be able to provide investigators with halothane. Animal protocols using halothane should be amended through the IACUC so that another anesthetic, such as isoflurane or an injectable, can be used instead.
> 
> ...


Thanks for informing me! :wink:


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## Sparker (Jun 17, 2007)

Sparker said:


> It might be best to avoid the "feeder" topic on a forum like this. I'm sure you know that.
> 
> I am so sorry about "Daddy Rat". I'm glad that he got some love and attention in his final hours, at least.





Matt said:


> First off, I didnt bring up the Feeder Topic. I just said he was sick.


Sorry that I misunderstood, then.



Matt said:


> And Second, He always had attention, not just in the last few hours of life. Just like all the rats in the household.


I just meant that I am glad you were with him. Please don't think that I was attacking you, or feel like you have to defend yourself. I probably phrased it awkwardly.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

savveth said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > December 2006
> ...


No problem Savveth. 

My vet uses Isoflurane, and others use Sevoflurane, etc. Its soo quick and peaceful. There's a lot of people out there who don't know that Debbie D. Renounced the CO2 method, so when I see home euth I am usually sure it will come up.  Honestly, there's times where I wish I could do something at home, but I know there isn't anything so if its not a peaceful death approaching (like some pituitary cases) then off to the vet I go. I pay $30 for it and I end their suffering gently. There are bad vets out there, you just have to find one that will listen to you, or follows your morals.


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## savveth (Jul 9, 2007)

Now if we could buy isoflurane or sevoflurane, we would then have a humane home euth method, but I dont thing they sell it to the common citizen....


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

savveth said:


> Now if we could buy isoflurane or sevoflurane, we would then have a humane home euth method, but I dont thing they sell it to the common citizen....


Also because they have to use a special vaporizer or distributor, which is under regulations.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> savveth said:
> 
> 
> > Now if we could buy isoflurane or sevoflurane, we would then have a humane home euth method, but I dont thing they sell it to the common citizen....
> ...


I am able to purchase it. But we are also Breeders.


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## chrisstrikeagain (Apr 10, 2007)

if you can purchase it, Matt, then why don't you?

I mean they are sayin its more humane tne why not. then however the poisons may pass so maybe not.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

chrisstrikeagain said:


> if you can purchase it, Matt, then why don't you?
> 
> I mean they are sayin its more humane tne why not. then however the poisons may pass so maybe not.


Because Matt and Breeders cannot purchase it. 

Isoflurane is an FDA regulated anesthetic. Here is the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)
http://tinyurl.com/yw8kn6

FDA - Food and Drug Administration. The FDA is a federal agency responsible for protecting public health by assuring the safety, efficacy and security of human and veterinary drugs, foods and cosmetics.


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> chrisstrikeagain said:
> 
> 
> > if you can purchase it, Matt, then why don't you?
> ...


Thats explains why one of our buddies just got a shipment of it in last week.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm sure you can buy anything on the internet and bypass all the restrictions.

If a rat breeder can get it, I could too and so could joe-schmo-serial killer down the block.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Matt said:


> lilspaz68 said:
> 
> 
> > chrisstrikeagain said:
> ...


Your buddy is not you. Your friend must have some legal way to get it.

Isoflurane is only the first step in euthanization. These people lost their vet
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070202/news_1mc2humane.html

_*Without a drug license from the federal Drug Enforcement Administration*, the shelter takes animals for euthanizing to the county shelter in Carlsbad, where they are given sodium pentobarbital, a fast-acting, injected barbiturate._


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## OnlyOno (Apr 4, 2007)

pretty sure the only way i'd believe that someone you know in the breeder industry got a shipment of isoflourane would be if i saw a picture of you holding the box. and spaz is right. the iso is what you use to just make the animal sleepy and pass out. you'd have to give them so much their heart slows down until it stops, so it's cheaper to just buy the euthasol itself. the best way to euthanize an animal is to inject the euthasol (it's the brand we use, but it has other names) directly into the veins. i've seen animal shelters inject it intra-muscularly by injecting it into their stomach or elsewhere, but that is painful as everything shuts down before the brain does and the animal dies slowly and no self-respecting vet would do that. our clinic doesn't even crop ears and we rarely dock tails or remove dewclaws. but hey, there are lemon doctors even in the human world.

anyway, what i was getting at is just that i don't think you can get iso and i don't think that even if you could, you should.  i think this thread is pretty much worn thru...


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## Matt (Jun 14, 2007)

We have gotten it before, and our buddy works for us.


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## Forensic (Apr 12, 2007)

I don't think it matters, Matt, the rats should still see a vet to be sure it's done properly. If you vet injects into the heart, find a new vet.


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