# Vicious Humping... Help?



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Gus Gus has been humping Bartok nearly constantly when they are both awake. Sometimes Bartok tolerates it and sometimes he doesn't. Lately, he has been tolerating it less and less, causing scuffles between the brothers. Bartok keeps getting nicks that aren't really deep, but just within the past thirty minutes, he got a scratch on his back that reminds me of when I had a hormonally aggressive male. This is a picture of the scratch he got from a rat that later ripped part of his face off (not the wound recently inflicted by Gus Gus). The current injury is _much _smaller, but very similar. He also keeps getting nicks on his face, right next to where he stitches used to be (from getting part of his face ripped off).

Another problem with this is that they have their little half-brother Tantor living with them. Tantor is barely two months old and not even half their size. I hate to call him stupid, but... he runs directly into the fray. If there's a fight/humping, he has to get in between the huge adult males and then squeak blood murder. He's gotten a few injuries, but I am not certain where they came from and they are very small scratches on his back, nothing serious. I haven't really seen the big boys behave aggressively to Tantor until...

Just a few minutes ago, Tantor decided to take after big borther Gus GUs... he began humping Bartok and Bartok didn't like it. Bartok began sidling Tantor and tried to box a bit. Tantor just kept trying to hump Bartok. Right now I'm wrangling Tantor while I type this because I wanted to separate them. I hadn't seen Bartok behave like that to Tantor and I don't want Tantor taking after Gus Gus. I haven't decided whether to put Tantor in my spare cage for the night or not... I probably will leave him in with the boys though. This problem is bigger than separating Tantor from them...

Oh, boy.. Just now, Bartok was snoozing away happily and then Gus Gus just decided to hump him. =/ Normally he waits until he's awake... ugh. (and he's done is several more times now while Bartok is still trying to sleep).

I used to joke, saying Gus Gus was my gay rat because he humped Bartok (none of the other boys, though) and licked Bartok's privates when he could, but now I'm really worried. Injuries are taking place here... Gus Gus practically rapes Bartok constantly and now Tantor is beginning to! Poor Bartok has been through more than enough, having had part of his face ripped off. His stitches are JUST NOW disappearing and now he's getting beat up by his brothers. 

Okay, now for the technical details. Gus Gus and Bartok are brothers, born around September 20th 2012. I've had them since October 18th 2012. They've NEVER been hormonally aggressive. Tantor is their half-brother, born mid April and I got him May 9th. He's still pretty small, which is why I worry for him. This humping thing started early April, I think... maybe a month or so before. I can't really remember. Gus Gus and Bartok were separated for several weeks while Bartok healed from being attacked by Cricket, my hormonally aggressive rat (who has been rehomed now) on April 26th, and then I had trouble introducing Bartok back into the "pack" that consisted of Gus Gus and Meeko at the time. Meeko then injured Gus Gus so I decided to introduce Gus Gus and Bartok and keep Meeko alone for a while. Since then, the humping has been nearly none-stop. If they're both awake, in the same vicinity and not eating, Gus Gus humps Bartok. He even did it while they were both in my lap! He doesn't do it to Tantor and I only ever saw him do it to Meeko and/or Cricket once. Bartok is his preferred "boyfriend."

-takes deep breath-

Okay, so what's going on? I mean, I know rats can hump for dominance reasons, but THIS much? 

I can't even believe how often Gus Gus does it... and now that Bartok is getting more irritated by it and beginning to lash out slightly, I worry they'll fight and... I'll find a dead rat. I already made the mistake of not separating soon enough once. I don't want a repeat of the whole "face ripped off, spend hours at the vet, worrying for my rat's life" thing. But I also don't want to separate two brothers if I don't have to... It made me sad for Gus Gus and Bartok to be separating before and I cried when I feared it would be permanent. That was why I got Tantor, admittedly; so Bartok would have a friend. I was so happy when I put Gus Gus and Bartok together again (about April 11th) and they cuddled for hours... Now I rarely see them sleeping together. Bartok tends to prefer sleeping far away from Tantor and Gus Gus. 

Let me know if I left out any info... I mean, surely this post isn't NEARLY long enough to cover it all. XD Seriously, though... help. If you have any questions, let me know!
Thanks,
~Fall


----------



## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I really have never heard of that, and I think you need to assume it's hormonal. They're right at that age where hormones become a real issue. You seem to be having very bad luck with this.  Some humping is normal--heck, my gals even get the occasional hump in now and then, and it really is a dominance thing, however weird that seems. If it's that compulsive for Gus Gus, he probably has an imbalance that needs to be taken care of. Not all hormonal imbalances result in aggression, but for Bartok's sake this isn't much better and can still lead to injury, depression, etc. Do Gus Gus and Meeko get along at all? Have they been aggressive with each other?


----------



## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh goodness, just re-read. So Meeko and Gus Gus are a no-go. Does Meeko get on with Bartok?


----------



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Meeko was the reason Gus Gus and Bartok didn't get along (I believe) when I originally tried to reintroduce the pack. Meeko is having hormonal issues, though not NEARLY has badly as Cricket had. He's not aggressive towards me at all (unlike Cricket), but he TERRIFIES Gus Gus and Bartok. Whenever I try to put them in the cage Meeko lives in (without meeko there, of course), Gus Gus jumps out of the cage and Bartok isn't really any better... Even though they used to live in that cage. Something about Meeko has them scared. I'm going to look into neutering Meeko when I have the money, but for now, he's alone and I'm not willing to risk putting Bartok with him (in fact, I plan to put him with the girls and not the boys once he's neutered). Bartok is actually worse with him than Gus Gus. Gus Gus is more afraid of him, but Bartok is more likely to fight with him.

Tantor and Gus Gus get along fine. I always say Gus Gus is Tantor's favorite brother because Gus Gus plays with him and Bartok just lays around while Tantor jumps on him.

I've always heard humping is normal, but I've rarely seen it with any of the rats I have or have had (since I got my first rats in September 2012). My girls do _occasionally_, but not often at all. I doubt they even do it every time they're in heat because I've never noticed them actually be in heat.

You mentioned depression... I think Bartok's feeling it. He seems more lethargic than I've come to expect from him. Also, he seems to want to be with me more than usual. The other day, something freaked him out (the vacuum I think) and he refused to go into his cage for three hours, so we hung out and watched TV together. Today, he insisted on staying out for a while again. Normally my rats HATE leaving their cages for long periods of time. Seriously; Gus Gus has been known to leap from my shoulder to his cage, as has Cream. Tantor nearly leaped from the coach to the cage while I was typing the above post. All that to say... Bartok isn't acting like himself. He's not in bad shape, but he's not in great shape either... -sigh- At least no faces have been ripped off yet.


----------



## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

Sounds like you just need to assert your dominance and show them that you are alpha, not any of them. It will decrease their hormones and they should get along better after that. You can also try immersion which will help.


----------



## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

Yupp, I agree with Voltage, I had to do this to my girls, and had to very aggressively to Scout(pinning for 30 mins until she stopped fighting) as she was ripping my Binx up and thinking she was going to be alpha after I showed Hanna and Binx I was boss, it worked really quickly, might be a bit longer for the boys, but I also had to for my 2 brothers as Walter started trying to be bossy over Oswald. Now everyone is getting along well. I think you need to just assert yourself as alpha and it might help with the dominance fights, they are viewing Bartok as the weakest and gus gus and tantor are taking advantage of that.


----------



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

My boys are very well aware of who the Alpha is, but thank you for the suggestion. This does not seem to be a dominance thing with Gus Gus; it's a serious issue that I don't think he has _any _control of right now. If it was dominance, why would it be _constant_? And why JUST humping? Gus Gus doesn't do ANYTHING else to Bartok relating to dominance (no pinning, no boxing, no force grooming, no sidling, no nothing). Bartok is the one that starts fights because he tries to get Gus Gus to stop humping him, and he doesn't even object most of the time.


----------



## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

Well it could be his way of dominance, It was for my Hanna, she constantly humped, and didn't bite or try to fight(the girls would get angry and fight back), but Hanna wasn't particular with who. Not to sure otherwise, it could be a different type of hormonal problems.


----------



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

She humped her sisters every second of every waking hour? Every time Gus Gus sees Bartok, he goes "Hump time!" and goes at it for quite a while, until he gets tired or Bartok is able to get away. Was she like that or less often? I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can, so thank you for your help.


----------



## Patientzero (Jan 12, 2012)

She used to very often, she would chase the girls down and jump on them and do this for hours until she was tired, and have a break and then she would go at them again, there was constant screaming and fighting going on and then after Scout was separated to have her babies I showed whose alpha and she stopped since then, other then one time a week later and now they have been so peaceful since, my land lady says it used to sound like they were trying to kill each other and now you hear nothing.


----------



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I'll keep it in mind.


----------



## Voltage (May 15, 2013)

Generally humping is the biggest dominance thing an animal can do. My family has two dogs, one female and one male they are brother and sister from the same litter and are both fixed/spayed. Ginger, our girl, would always hump Bones because she was dominant over him. They never fought or anything and didn't play rough. But with rats dominance can be a huge issue.On a side note, I had to pin down cappuccino today. She was getting really aggressive toward everyone else since they are getting to that age. She hurt Toast so I scooped her up flipped her on her back and held her til she stopped struggling. As soon as she did I let her go and she just crawled in to my jacket and snuggled up. She has been so much calmer outside of the cage and friendlier to everyone else inside the cage. It really just betters them altogether.


----------



## 1a1a (May 6, 2011)

Nueter?


----------



## FallDeere (Sep 29, 2011)

A neuter isn't really an option since he's not really hormonally aggressive. I've had a hormonally aggressive rat; he ain't one. lol. XD I'm actually saving up money to get Meeko neutered, but I can't afford two neuters and still feed all eight rats and I don't see a reason to neuter him since I don't really think it'd help... I know neutered males still mount females, so I doubt it would completely solve the problem. Especially if the issue _is _dominance.

It's being dealt with, so this thread can be locked.

Thanks,
~Fall


----------

