# Litter training woes... could REALLY use some expert insight/help... very frustrated!



## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

First of all, I've done a lot of reading and research. I'd consider myself well-read on this subject, so believe me when I say that I've tried all the usual steps, and I'm also aware that some rats (especially boys) are just incredibly hard to litter train. BUT, I know my rats are more intelligent than I usually give them credit for, and I have a hard time believing that they are really "just that lazy." So... I could really use some help from some rat pros here!

Here's the current situation and setup. I have 2 males, 10 weeks old, who I've had for exactly 1 month now. They live in a Rat Manor cage. I currently have four 4"x4"x1" square tupperware pans filled with Super Pet litter from Petco placed in the four rear corners of the cage that don't have anything in them (i.e. where they usually poop & pee). The ratboys sleep in a hammock suspended from the top of the cage, and the floor of the cage is covered in an old t-shirt. I change the flooring shirt and clean the cage roughly 2-3 times per week.

OK so... my rats do not routinely use the litter box. If they do actually manage to hit the target area, it's pretty much a random thing - only because the litter pan just happened to be under them when they felt like going in one of the corners. They've literally managed to get it in a litter pan maybe 2-3 times since I've gotten them. Needless to say, I am constantly picking up poop and putting it into their pans, and about 2/3 of what I pick up is literally within an inch of the litter pans. In fact, I've definitely been suspicious that they may be actually avoiding the litter pans. They have no problem pooping and peeing in their hammock and sleeping in it, and the only thing that they actually DO put in their litter pans is food blocks. Yes, they love to store their food in the litter pans... sigh. One interesting thing to note is that when they are out of their cage for playtime, they VERY rarely poop. I can let them play on the sofa with me or ride around my neck in a towel for 2+ hours without a single raisin!

This is really blowing my mind, and it's so frustrating as the girls I've had in the past litter trained virtually instantly. Please... someone... ANYONE... help me understand this behavior and how to get them trained!!??


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## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I would prepare for the fact that they may not get litter trained 100%- ever, maybe not even 80%. I have litter boxes in my male cage because my boys use them if they are in the general area, but I am constantly changing hammocks that are stiff with urine and droppings. Sometimes yes, male rats _are _that lazy, granted so are some females. My advice would be to start big. I would use the whole bottom of the cage for a litter box. That way they can (hopefully) associate the actual bedding in the bottom with the bathroom area rather than the tubs themselves. You have that deep pan for a reason! Using the same idea of moving the poo to the bottom, hopefully they will get it. Eventually put the bedding in smaller and smaller containers in the bottom, until you are back to the corner boxes. I think that using this technique they may learn that the bedding itself is where they go, not the liners. My oldest males are over a year old, and use the litter box maybe 1/2 the time. It is frustrating, but not all rats care to keep their poop contained. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. If all else fails, invest in a handheld vacuum and do daily spot cleaning. Good luck!


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## KelseyShea (Jan 20, 2013)

Two of my girls were instantly litter trained the day we brought them home, and the other two waited a year to litter train themselves- and then it was done overnight. I have no idea what it was that made them decide to start using the box. I've never had boys so I can't help you much there... but there is hope! I honestly think some rats are stubborn/lazy and will just do things in their own time. But, maybe this will help: I would try using these litter pans- http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-3765715t300x300.jpg (They make all different sizes) Don't know if the shape makes a difference but my rats seemed more inclined to use these than tupperware. I also use "Yesterday's News" unscented litter. Again, don't know if it will change anything, but I hope it helps!


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

KelseyShea said:


> I would try using these litter pans- http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-3765715t300x300.jpg



Yep. That's what I started with. I have a big one of those, but decided to try the 4 smaller pans in each open corner after that big one did no good at all.

I guess I'll try a different litter - something like Yesterdays News. Maybe its the substrate itself that is throwing them off... who knows.

Also, I think I'm going to have to try the "use the whole floor of the cage as the litter pan" technique for a while... what sucks is that they most often poop and pee just outside of their hammock on the very top level


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## zmashd (Dec 25, 2013)

My boys fully got it when I deep cleaned everything in the cage and left only the litter box as it was. Before that they were pooping there maybe half of the time, but after they had a "ah-ha!" moment, and since then I have yet to see a poop outside the box - it's been weeks!

Maybe you've tried that already... idk.

I washed all their textiles at 95oC on a long program, with vinegar and then sodium bicarbonate to rid it all of smells. I scrubbed down the bottom of the cage like a maniac also.
By the time it was done and they got in there, they ran straight to the litter box, sniffed around it and did their business, before any exploring took place.


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

zmashd said:


> My boys fully got it when I deep cleaned everything in the cage and left only the litter box as it was. Before that they were pooping there maybe half of the time, but after they had a "ah-ha!" moment, and since then I have yet to see a poop outside the box - it's been weeks!
> 
> Maybe you've tried that already... idk.
> 
> ...


Do you use straight vinegar to wipe the cage down with? Or do you dilute it?

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## smopey (Feb 3, 2012)

4" x 4" x 1" sounds a bit small to me. Maybe try getting a bigger pan that takes up about half of the floor so they can see the difference. I feel like if you made the entire floor the litter pan then it would just be like bedding to them.


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## Shannon6987 (Jan 2, 2014)

I am also having litter training issues. I have 4 boys, and they all seem to use the litter pans, but they also use every other surface in their three story cage!! I like the idea of deep cleaning, (I've been cleaning about every other day, changing out bedding and wiping down the shelves with unscented baby wipes). I am wondering if a solution of baking soda/white vinegar would neutralize any lingering scents, and what proportions to mix this? What did you use to deep clean with? Any info would be greatly appreciated!!


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## zmashd (Dec 25, 2013)

RattyDaddy said:


> Do you use straight vinegar to wipe the cage down with? Or do you dilute it?


1/2 vinegar solution for wiping down the metal bits, with a wash right after or it'll corrode. Pure to scrub the tray (if plastic), and then fill it up with water and let sit for a little while you finish cleaning other things.




Shannon6987 said:


> I am also having litter training issues. I have 4 boys, and they all seem to use the litter pans, but they also use every other surface in their three story cage!! I like the idea of deep cleaning, (I've been cleaning about every other day, changing out bedding and wiping down the shelves with unscented baby wipes). I am wondering if a solution of baking soda/white vinegar would neutralize any lingering scents, and what proportions to mix this? What did you use to deep clean with? Any info would be greatly appreciated!!


You can't mix baking soda and vinegar. baking soda will neutralize the acid in the vinegar, making it noneffective. 
I make a little spray bottle of water + baking soda to spray down the tray and the towel in the bottom before I put the fleece on top, and it does a good job of keeping the scent down for a bit.


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## Shannon6987 (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks for the tip, zmashd!! I'm gonna get my boys out and do some cleaning!!!


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Ok, I have taken their wheel, food, etc and moved it up one tier, and covered the entire floor of their cage with paper litter now...

Any ideas on how to get them to stop pooping on the upper levels and go downstairs only instead?


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## Shannon6987 (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm pleased to report after deep cleaning my boys' cage, I see no sign of them using anything but the litter boxes for "littering". Thanks for the tip, it seems they've "got it" now!!!


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## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

RattyDaddy said:


> Ok, I have taken their wheel, food, etc and moved it up one tier, and covered the entire floor of their cage with paper litter now...
> 
> Any ideas on how to get them to stop pooping on the upper levels and go downstairs only instead?


I would recommend just doing the same thing as before; moving all poops to the litter as soon as you see it. It helps if anytime you pass by the cage stop for a second and check, so you catch it as soon as it happens. I would also watch for when they do go to the bathroom on the bottom and praise them for it. It has only been a few days, but any improvement so far?


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

I already do exactly that - pick up poop anytime I walk by their cage LOL. And no... Nothing different at all yet. In fact, I can't even say I've seen them on the floor level even once since I put nothing but litter down there!  They just poop and pee in the corners of all of the upper levels as usual (including in their hammock and in their food bowl now that its on the upper tier).

Do you realize how gross (and frustrating) it is to pick my boys up out of their hammock and discover that they were sleeping on top of a heaping pile of poop?!?!  Sigh   

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## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, I would not keep it totally bare, or they really have no reason to go down there at first. I am not sure how the rat manor is set-up, but maybe hook their water bottle up at the bottom? That way they see that the poop is down there when they go for a drink. Also, if you are really determined to litter train, you could always take the hammock and hook it up so it hangs over the litter or just take it out entirely for a while. Some rats would not be too pleased about sleeping so low to the ground depending on how comfortable they are in your home, so I would also make sure to have some sort of sleeping spot set up on one of the upper levels. It is definitely a waiting game, could be weeks or even months until they get it. If you do not have the patience for that I would not stress yourself out and just think of another way to keep the mess to a minimum.


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## zmashd (Dec 25, 2013)

Shannon6987 said:


> I'm pleased to report after deep cleaning my boys' cage, I see no sign of them using anything but the litter boxes for "littering". Thanks for the tip, it seems they've "got it" now!!!


Awesome!
Glad to be of help!


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

toke said:


> Well, I would not keep it totally bare, or they really have no reason to go down there at first. I am not sure how the rat manor is set-up, but maybe hook their water bottle up at the bottom? That way they see that the poop is down there when they go for a drink. Also, if you are really determined to litter train, you could always take the hammock and hook it up so it hangs over the litter or just take it out entirely for a while. Some rats would not be too pleased about sleeping so low to the ground depending on how comfortable they are in your home, so I would also make sure to have some sort of sleeping spot set up on one of the upper levels. It is definitely a waiting game, could be weeks or even months until they get it. If you do not have the patience for that I would not stress yourself out and just think of another way to keep the mess to a minimum.


Very good ideas! So now I've moved their hammock so it's suspended right above the litter floor, and I've also moved their food and water back down to the floor level. So now, there's literally no way for them to avoid the litter/poop area. (Of course, the kicker here is that they pick all the food out of their food bowl and take it all the way up to the top tier of the cage & "stash" it there)

Anyways, thanks - we'll see if this helps any... Wish me luck.

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## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

You do want them using the rest of the cage, so it is good that they are stashing the food- that way they are pooping upstairs and can see you moving it, rather than just hanging out at the bottom. In a bit when they (hopefully) are using the litter more consistently, I would start moving their things back up to the other levels so they are up their more often. This would also be the time to start reducing the size of the litter tub if you do not want to be filling the whole base forever. Just because males are typically more lazy, I would always keep something they need on the bottom so they have a reason to go down. If not, you could run into the situation where even though they know the litter is the place to go, it is so much easier to just go on the top. If their food or water is down there, then they are going up and down constantly. I believe in your little guys


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Just an update to say that none of this has helped  I think I'm going to have to resign myself to the fact that my boys just aren't ever gonna be litter trained... sigh


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## Sylver (Sep 5, 2013)

Were they feeders before you got them? 

If they were, it might be harder to litter train them if they weren't well kept. Much like poorly raised puppy-mill puppies, if they are raised in so much filth that it can't ever be avoided, eventually they just stop trying to avoid it. They then have to be re-educated about how to stay out of the goop, and how nice it is to not be covered in it. 

Myself, I'd take out the shelves and other elevated surfaces for a few days until they get the hang of going in the box (so food/water/hide on one end of the cage, litter box on the other, spot cleaning as usual). Then if you can get them to go in the box with no shelves, then add the shelves. If they don't go on the shelves for a couple of days, then put in the hammocks.


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Sylver said:


> Were they feeders before you got them?
> 
> If they were, it might be harder to litter train them if they weren't well kept. Much like poorly raised puppy-mill puppies, if they are raised in so much filth that it can't ever be avoided, eventually they just stop trying to avoid it. They then have to be re-educated about how to stay out of the goop, and how nice it is to not be covered in it.
> 
> Myself, I'd take out the shelves and other elevated surfaces for a few days until they get the hang of going in the box (so food/water/hide on one end of the cage, litter box on the other, spot cleaning as usual). Then if you can get them to go in the box with no shelves, then add the shelves. If they don't go on the shelves for a couple of days, then put in the hammocks.


Well... they weren't feeders, but it was also obvious upon seeing the babies' cage that the breeder I got them from made no effort to encourage litter training when they were pups. So... yeah... they, along with their brothers and sisters, have been setup for failure from the get-go 

And I've taken you're suggestion. (In fact, I had been struck with the same idea, and you actually posted this as I was literally walking upstairs to begin doing so.) I removed all of the extra ramps and floors in their cage, so they are living in a 1-tier cage now. While there's much less real estate for them to enjoy, I am hoping this will actually teach them what the litter is actually for. Other than pooping in their hammock (which is still ever-popular), they are literally forced to go in the litter now.

Wish me luck!


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## toke (Aug 28, 2012)

How is the litter training going?


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Well... it's going well, but only because I've given them no options at this point lol. They pretty much HAVE to poop in the litter. I'm just gonna keep the current setup for about 3 months total before I even think about re-expanding their cage back out. One tiny positive thing I've noticed is that they don't seem to be pooping in their hammock near as much... So, yay!

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## MimiSkye (Feb 3, 2014)

I have heard males are harder to litter train than females, BUT I have 2 females who also live in the Rat Manor...I am throwing that cage out the second my Critter Nation cage comes in. My girls usually poop in the litter box, but they do pee in the corners sometimes and I have to scrub it off the bars like twice a week. I think the thing about the rat manor is that it has four levels and they can pee along any wall they want on the third level and it gets all over. I'm excited about switching to the CN cage cuz the second level only hits two corners so I'll only have to scrub the bars of those two corners instead of the whole cage!

One word of advice I got when it comes to lieet boxes is to try and connect the ladder leading to the bottom floor into the litter box...so like, when the go down the ladder to get to the bottom level it goes straight into the litter box. I don't know why this was suggested or why the placement would matter, but it worked for me! So right now in my rat manor, the ladder connected to the second level goes straight into their litter pan in the far right corner of the first level.

Maybe it'll help?


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Quick update - They've stopped pooping in their hammock!! It's a miracle! About 10 days ago, they just up and stopped - like 100% stopped. And they seem to be going in the same corner of the bottom floor every time now! So.... baby steps, but progress!


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## LeStan82 (Dec 31, 2013)

I have a large corner pan, my now deceased boys litter trained instantly , how ever the 3 boys I have now(around 3 months) wont take the hint either. At first they tried to use it as a bed so I had to put the grate on top. I do the same as you, throw the poop in the box, they just dont get it. However I have noticed that they throw the poop out of the cage. Poop is piled in the corner right outside the cage, not every time. There is also raisins spread out in the cage. I keep hoping they will catch on (sigh)...lol


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

My girls have been litter trained for almost a year now. They only go in their pans while in cage and out for play time. Lilly did have her first accident tonight but I'm pretty sure it was due to drinking soapy water :/ they don't even pee on anything while out playing. I do have to wash their hammocks and tunnels and fleece bedding because while they don't pee anywhere but the pans in free range, they do get lazy in the cage when it comes to peeing.


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## Hey-Fay (Jul 8, 2013)

One other thing that i forgot to mention, when i started litter training them i used carefresh paper bedding which was a bad idea because they thought it was a place to sleep. I switched to ferret litter, it's so much cheaper than carefresh and they automatically realized "oh ok, I poop here" the ferret litter isnt dusty, it's compressed paper, smells pretty good and absorbs urine and oder great.


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## ratty_milkshake (Feb 24, 2014)

Rat Daddy Just move the litterbox to that corner. When igot mine i didnt have a litterbox but noticed they only used one corner. When i got a litterbox i just put it there and the used it. My girls were easy, some rats ive heard just take a bit longer to snap.


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## RattyDaddy (Dec 8, 2013)

Believe me I've tried this. It didn't work obviously, so that's why I took the rather drastic measures that I've taken. They don't just go in one corner - so if I put a litter tray there, they just avoid it and go elsewhere 

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## jellybeanqueen (Sep 6, 2007)

I have 4 rat boys and they use the litter pans 90% of the time (two are just out of the baby stage and it took them a while to catch on). I have one larger litter pan, like for a kitten, on the upper level and a corner one on the bottom. What substrate are you using? With recycled paper pellets, I've noticed that the rats don't seem to like the feel of it on their feet so they didn't use the pans as much. I switched to Vitakraft fresh world bedding and it's awesome. Soft, crumbly & with baking soda/zeolite to cut down on odours. The boys like it but not so much they sleep in it, haha. I use fleece on the rest of the levels so there is a definite contrast between "toilet" and "floor".

Also, it's common info on this board, but have you tried using "pee rocks"? You literally take a big rock and place it in the litter pan. The theory is that the rats are supposed to want to mark it and end up using the litter pan as a result. This was honestly what started my boys to use their litter pans consistenly! Unfortunately, they don't pee in their litter pans reliably, but it's nice not picking up a bunch of poops scattered around.

I wish you luck!!


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