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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## Kchilson02 (Jan 20, 2016)

All my girlast have been 3/4 months when I have gotten them but I am curious myself if babies become more lovey and attached or if that's just her personality most my girls are lovey with me love but they all have their different peraonalities


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## catty-ratty (Feb 21, 2016)

I have 5 rats. Out of the 5, two of them are super affectionate, Anga and Pebbles. Anga was about 3 months old when I got her. She is very affectionate, but she is also not your usual rat either. Pebbles was about 4 or 5 weeks old and super cute and affectionate, follows me around the house and comes when I call her. Anga will too, if she feels like it! 

The other 3 were all about 3 months old when I got them. They are affectionate, but not like Anga and Pebbles. 

Given my limited experience, it seems to me that a rat that you get at an early age will be socialized earlier and therefor more affectionate. Rats from breeders are supposed to be more affectionate, but they are also socialized much earlier than a rat you might get somewhere else. 

IMO, it's the early socialization that makes the biggest difference in personality. But there are those who will disagree with me.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Good breeding + decent socialization = great rat. 

Great breeding + minimal socialization = great rat.

Bad breeding + substantial amazing socialization = it's a crap shot, but at least a decent rat.

As always, there are exceptions, but it's easier when they're well bred since rats still have a lot of traits that are immediately tied to genetics.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

Yup, but age doesn't hurt. It's easier to bond a baby to you than it is a six month old.

It's like building a fire. You need three things to get it up and growing: heat/ignition, oxygen, and fuel. Well, to get a bonded rat, you need: a rat (I know - duh), socialization, and good breeding. In this metaphorical rat bon fire (where I promise no rats will be harmed), the age factor is just an accelerant, like dumping rubbing alcohol into the fire. Yeah, sure, you probably would have had a great fire tossing a lighter into the giant pile of dry kindling/logs, but now that you've dumped rubbing alcohol on it, you get to watch the fire go "whoosh," into the air. (And if I remember correctly, alcohol burns blue, so it's an extra "Wow" effect.)


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

The quality of the wood (breeding) - how wet or dry it is and what type of wood it is - will determine the burn time of your bon fire, including how hot you can get it at it's full potential.

The amount of oxygen available (socialization) will determine how brightly it shines and if it gets to roar or just damply crackle. You can have great wood, but if you stick it in a vacuum, you're not getting a fire.

The accelerant (age) determines how quickly you'll get to the full potential.

As always, there are exceptions.

And it's not to say that rats of unknown pedigree will be bad rats, they'll just need a little more oxygen. But, you might not get as much "burn time" (lifespan) out of them due to hidden illnesses encountered in pet stores, etc.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

nintendoremi said:


> In general, then, you would say that her high affection has less to do with her age and the primary factor is good breeding and socialization?


I would say it has absolutely nothing to do with her age 

I've had lots and lots of babies. The, being sweet, affectionate, friendly, etc... has to do with their personality not their age. 
She was likely bred for temperament and now has a beautiful personality!

I kindof hate the myth that people think they need a baby to be able to bond deep (you were not saying that no worries lol)
But it often leads to people dismissing older rats. I had someone not want an 8(!!) week old rat because they were afraid it would not bond with them?

If you have a rat that was bred for temperament and didn't have any negative, abuse situations it will be amazing, loving and bond very deeply with you no matter the age. 

Rats being amazing social animals means they are very open to bond with you no matter their age.


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## raindear (Mar 3, 2015)

I got two 5 week old rats from a rescue, Gabrielle and Calliope. As soon as we got into the car for the 5 hour ride home I offered both of them the opportunity to ride in my lap. Gabrielle immediately climbed up and curled up at the nape of my neck in a rat tube, Calliope jumped back into the carrier and curled up to sleep. Gabrielle was my heart rat, shadow, little love. Calliope was a dear but not as attached as Gabrielle. I think it is just personality.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Its the personality of each rat. Even within a litter there will be different personalities. You just lucked out with your wee one. I have taken in older rescues who were not very nice (neglected or even treated badly) and in a short time, they were wonderful with me. All depends on the rat.

I have to add, i am surprised a breeder adopted out a 4 week old baby when they shouldn't leave their mom for at least another week.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

nintendoremi said:


> Thank you, this was closer to the question I was asking. I've had three other rats in the past, but all were older.
> 
> They were quick to bond, but the affection was not as instantaneous or at the same magnitude as it has been with Violet. I had no idea what to expect when adopting so young!
> 
> ...


Males should be removed from all females (Mom and siblings) around 5 weeks of age, but usually aren't adopted out until they have adjusted so at least 6-7 weeks for decent breeders. Females can stay with mom until they are adopted. 4 weeks is often still nursing on mom, and even if they aren't nursing any longer its a week of learning how to be a rat from mom. You often will find that a 4 week old has not developed all the social skills an older baby did that was left with mom and siblings. If you think of it, their eyes open at 2-2.5 weeks of age, and this is when they start seeing their world and associating with it, so its not a long time. The stress of being taken away from mom and siblings at 4 weeks can also cause stress to the immune system leaving them open to respiratory infections.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

nintendoremi said:


> Ahh, that's an important detail I forgot to mention! She did come to me from a breeder, I brought her home at about four weeks old, she's now about seven weeks.


Rats from good breeders are naturally more affectionate on average than a rat from a pet store. It totally makes sense. Good breeders not only breed out aggressiveness from their lines, but also actively breed their sweetest (best temperament) rats. On top of having genetically affectionate rats, they might spend more time socializing them too. I would keep getting my rats from that breeder if I were you


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Gribouilli said:


> Rats from good breeders are naturally more affectionate on average than a rat from a pet store. It totally makes sense. Good breeders not only breed out aggressiveness from their lines, but also actively breed their sweetest (best temperament) rats. On top of having genetically affectionate rats, they might spend more time socializing them too. I would keep getting my rats from that breeder if I were you


Even when they adopt out at 4 weeks of age?

I have feeder rats, petstore, BYB and so-called breeder rats, and the breeder rats were the "worst". All the males from one legit breeder had to be neutered to be handled, and one was neutered over a year ago and still is unable to have friends without trying to kill them and still cannot have his back touched otherwise he huffs, and charges and grinds his teeth like a hormonal male which leads me to believe his lines are genetically aggressive. 

In Canada we have learned the hard way that Breeder doesn't always equal Better.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

lilspaz68 said:


> Even when they adopt out at 4 weeks of age?


I don't understand your question. Did I miss some details? Usually breeders let their rats go at 5 weeks- that's what my breeder does. I saw breeders waiting for their rats to be 6 weeks too. IMO temperament is probably 70% genetics and 30% environment aka socialization and nurturing interactions.


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

Also that is why I ALWAYS use words such as "good" or "reputable" when talking about where one has a better chance to get a healthy and sweet tempered rat. We all know that not all breeders are good, that is a given. For that reason, I always specify "good" or "reputable". I always use the words "on average" or "everything else equal" to convey that it is only about increasing one's odds to get a great pet.


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

moonkissed said:


> ... *I had someone not want an 8(!!) week old rat* because they were afraid it would not bond with them?...


Now that's just ridiculous. They're still babies then. Generally speaking, for me, my age cut off is six months, unless I see some real potential. But that's less about bonding and more about them only living 2 years.



Gribouilli said:


> I don't understand your question. Did I miss some details? Usually breeders let their rats go at 5 weeks- that's what my breeder does. I saw breeders waiting for their rats to be 6 weeks too. IMO temperament is probably 70% genetics and 30% environment aka socialization and nurturing interactions.


This breeder in particular let a rat go at 4 weeks. That's why Spaz was against getting more rats from this one in particular. (Right?)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

RatAtat2693 said:


> This breeder in particular let a rat go at 4 weeks. That's why Spaz was against getting more rats from this one in particular. (Right?)


Got it in one


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## RatAtat2693 (Jan 13, 2016)

lilspaz68 said:


> Got it in one


Just didn't want to accidentally put words in someone's... post?


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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

As I always say, it is about increasing your odds at getting a well tempered rat. There are no guarantees in life, ever. There are just ways to increase your chances at a better outcome.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I am sure your sweetie will be fine, she sounds like she's in excellent hands with a doting owner. It's more generalities on force-weaning too early rather than specifically about your girl.


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

lilspaz68 said:


> Its the personality of each rat. Even within a litter there will be different personalities. You just lucked out with your wee one. I have taken in older rescues who were not very nice (neglected or even treated badly) and in a short time, they were wonderful with me. All depends on the rat.
> 
> I have to add, i am surprised a breeder adopted out a 4 week old baby when they shouldn't leave their mom for at least another week.


ugh I didnt even catch that. Such a huge pet peeve of mine. 

There is just zero reason to sell that early. It is definitely not in the rats best interest. My first thought is that they just want to get rid of it fast because of space/expense. Because you often need two good size cages for the babies to grow out in at that age (males vs females at 5 weeks) and omg a good size growing litter at that age eat so much food! It jumps your food bill up there. But it is so bad for the babies IMO. It makes me sad everytime I see it.

Though I also tend to think it is more common towards feeder breeders. They could still be breeding for lovely temperaments but meh it still makes me sad.

Keep your babies till 6 weeks atleast! /rant over lol


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## nintendoremi (Jun 8, 2015)

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## Gribouilli (Dec 25, 2015)

I took a quick look at her Facebook page. I saw no obvious red flags. It is much better than any pet stores * 100. I saw 2-3 weeks old baby rats in pet stores and those were from "rat mills"; so IMO you definitely chose well by going with her instead of Petco, Petsmarts....


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