# Read with open minds?



## KosmicKritters (Dec 25, 2010)

I know this is not a place to discuss intentional breeding, so i will not discuss much about that here.
I have been breeding rats for eleven years, and have the only known rattery in Jackson Mississippi.

I have recently come across something that i am not sure quite what to do about. Or where to find the info i need. SO i decided to bring it to the rat community.

I'm a bit hesitant to say it, but i believe i have managed to naturally breed tri-********. 

I have four babies, from two different litters. They are white on their undersides, and their faces start out as a beige and fade into a mink color, then to a dark brown, like a savanna burmese near the tails. It is a very DISTINCT color difference, and no white or gray hairs mixed in. Looks much different from an Agouti. 

Two of the females have a white body, beige cap, and SEPERATED savanna burmese stripe down their backs. 

They are all dumbo rats. The mother of one i believe is a Mosaic (named mosaic, strangely...never seen rat like her!!! But she fits the description!). The other is a Variegated black and white, and the third is a siamese. These does were all bred to the same buck- again, possibly a mosaic. He does not fit into any other category. 

I have been breeding for eleven years, and have bloodlines i can trace back for up to five years. These are all my own rats, and i have no idea how to go about finding out what they really are.


I will have pics at the end of the week. Two of the babies are nine weeks old, have shed twice, and no color change. The color difference is only enhancing as they shed. The other two are still young, waiting on their sheds to know for sure....

The mosaic rats are said to be very elusive and rare, and the tri-********, natural tri-******** that is, are almost like an urban legend in the rat world. I do not want to jump the gun and say i have somthing when i do not know exactly what it is im holding. Lol.

If anyone has any iupdated info on tri-colored and mosaic rats, i would very much appreciate it! I will post pics of the babies as soon as i can, hopefully they will help. Will also post pics of the two possible mosaics to see if anyone can help me possibly place them into proper categories.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

You aren't going to get a lot of information from this particular forum. You might want to post on Goosemoose/RatsRule where ethical breeding is not frowned upon. There are a lot of breeders on there and they might be able to advise and would probably be pretty interested. Just make sure in your first post that you mention knowing the pedigrees for 5 generations, etc, etc...as there is always a little grilling especially from newbies who got grilled themselves on rat care. They all want to give it back *giggle*


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## Zhaneel (Sep 1, 2010)

Even if we can't help you much, I would definitely like to see pictures! If you could still post them here or link us to your new thread...? And I'd love to see the mosaic rats as well, I can't find anything on Google Images and it's quite intriguing.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

When did we ever say we frowned upon ethical breeding?

We frown upon BYBS and crappy breeders with good intentions/bad plannig


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## littlematchstick (Apr 12, 2009)

Kiko said:


> When did we ever say we frowned upon ethical breeding?
> 
> We frown upon BYBS and crappy breeders with good intentions/bad plannig


I don't think she was being snarky, just that we frown upon ANY discussion of breeding so that issues don't come up with people arguing ethics. which is why we decided not to allow any discussion of it.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh I misunderstood I guess. Sorry


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## KosmicKritters (Dec 25, 2010)

I did not intend to start a discussion about breeding, honestly the reason i still do it instead of simply rescue ratties is because many people in the area that i live in do not want a rat period, much less a rescued one. It breaks my heart to hear the stories of some of the little ratties i have taken in. 

By breeding exceptional rats as pets, each baby that finds a great home makes an impression. One person tells another, and little by little the word spreads. Hopefully in the long run, rats will be widely accepted as pets in this part of the US. 

I also have taken in many prego rescues before, so sometimes i DO have unexpected litters. These are NEVER bred to my personal rats. And i try to get all the babies to the vet at least once before they are adopted out. In many cases i also get them spayed/neutered as well. 


The main reason i posted was to maybe see if there was someone on here that knows a good deal about patterns and colors. Maybe someone who would know a bit more about the "mystical" rats that we hear of but never seem to see. I am getting my new Nikon camera at the end of the week, all i have at the moment is a phone camera. I will post pics of momma, daddy, and the funny babies. Even if they are not tri-******** or mosaics, i still think that they would be fun to try and figure out what they are. 

Thanks for making my welcome here friendly, instead of jumping down my throat. Especially considering the debate about breeding my post could have sparked. Lol.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes I would love to see these interesting rats lol. I have only ever seen 1 tri colored rat and it was really beautiful


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## KosmicKritters (Dec 25, 2010)

Here are pics!

Baby #1:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0007.jpg
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0011.jpg
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0014.jpg

Baby #2:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0025.jpg
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0024.jpg


Older Baby # 1:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/100_6037.jpg

Older Baby # 2:
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/100_6065.jpg


I have to say, im disgusted with the Goosemoose site. All they care about is breeding for looks and certian colors. Not what i am breeding for. They ripped me to pieces, even with my knowledge. Calling babies with a LONG history (5+ years) of no siamese or himi at all in their genetics siamese mismarked and such. Even the babies whose parents have NO siamese in them, or their ancestors. I will post pics of them as soon as photobucket loads them.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

You cant't judge an entire website by one thread. There are a few extremely good and respected breeders over at GM and many very knowledgeable members.

With any forum with a large member base people are going to have angry, say mean things or criticize.

In fact most of us here are members and frequent posters at Goosemoose.


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## Kiko (Sep 18, 2009)

And I actually just read the thread, there was nothing disgusting about it. It was civil and polite and the people answered your questions. 

If you're a breeder the one thing you HAVE to be able to handle is criticism, it is a fact that you will be questioned and you'll have to deal with it professionally. 

As for calling the rats siamese. Thats what they basically are, they look EXACTLY like that so why is it wrong to call it something else? And there is nothing wrong with breeding for colors AND health in fact most breeders find it easier to maintain health in a single color line.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

KosmicKritters said:


> Here are pics!
> 
> Baby #1:
> http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/karimeb89/000_0007.jpg
> ...


I would HARDLY say the replies on Goosemoose tore you apart - actually quite the opposite. You were not grilled at all, and actually had an EXTREMELY easy entrance into the forum compared to what I have seen in the past. 

I also suggest you be honest - The people on Goosemoose do NOT care only about breeding for looks and certain colors. If you are suggesting *I* am among those you are accusing, you have really got another thing coming. Such an extreme reaction really does not bode well for you. NO ONE attacked you, and yet you are automatically on the defense and ready to gossip on a different forum you think you are "safe" on. Some of us frequent multiple forums, and your posts will be found sooner or later. If you really have nothing to to be attacked for, why be so defensive though, really? If your rats are health, long-lived, you are doing everything right, etc, why does it really matter what other people think? Your rats really should be able to speak for themselves.

Your babies DO look like marked Siamese. It really does not matter how far back the Siamese occurred, it is a recessive and can be carried for MANY MANY MANY generations, unknown to you. I have seen and heard of recessives showing up randomly after far greater than 5 generations. Even in inbred, carefully selected lines.


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## sorraia (Nov 10, 2007)

Kiko said:


> And I actually just read the thread, there was nothing disgusting about it. It was civil and polite and the people answered your questions.
> 
> If you're a breeder the one thing you HAVE to be able to handle is criticism, it is a fact that you will be questioned and you'll have to deal with it professionally.


This x1000000000000000. 

It really is something that just comes with the territory. Especially when you are just getting started or just making your public debut. 



> As for calling the rats siamese. Thats what they basically are, they look EXACTLY like that so why is it wrong to call it something else? And there is nothing wrong with breeding for colors AND health in fact most breeders find it easier to maintain health in a single color line.


Exactly what I tried to get at in the thread on Goosemoose. In my own personal opinion, I'll take a breeder who CAN focus on a select color or two, while breeding for health and temperament, over someone who has no focus at all. That doesn't mean color is the priority.


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## eluin (Jan 25, 2010)

Sorraia said:


> KosmicKritters said:
> 
> 
> > Here are pics!
> ...



And just to add, I don't know a lot about genetics, but I do know that a very respectable breeder over on GM had a litter show up recently with one odd eyed baby. She and another very respectable breeder traced the lineage back and found what they suspect is the culprate, *9 YEARS* back in this rat's lineage. Surprises happen, even to the best breeders. I was following your thread over on GM too. There are a LOT of us that frequent both forums, more now than ever after an experience with a bad BYB that hit both forums. What you say here WILL come back to haunt you there too. 
No one was picking on your rats. In fact, your rats were pretty well received. No one told you you were a bad breeder or that there were problems with your babies, only that they were not show quality or desirable traits if you were breeding for show quality. They did want to get across the answer to your origional question, which was whether you had bred something new and what you would call the colors you've bred. Considering how hard that forum has come down on some of the members, I'd say we were pretty good to you.


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## chapstickaddict (Nov 22, 2010)

Eluin said:


> Sorraia said:
> 
> 
> > KosmicKritters said:
> ...


+100. 
Sadly, it seems like this kind of drama comes in waves. :. You better believe it when we say that thread was an EASY one compared to some on GM. Everyone on these rat boards is VERY passionate about their bubs and it can come across a little *too* strongly sometimes. Go take a look at some of the locked threads and you'll see how easy you got it . I hope you learned a lesson about the internet today, that NOTHING is safe, and I really hope that this defensive, jump-to-conclusions attitude that has sparked up will be no more after this. I feel like you owe everyone else on the other thread an apology for "talking behind their backs" like this. 

Here's a link to a website about rat colors and markings. It explains that there are "color/marking standards" and anything outside of them will be "irregular or mismarked."http://www.dreameyce.com/eagleseye/rattery/ratinfo/rat_markings.htm
Again, saying these things isn't a knock against anyone's rats; it's just a way of classifying them. Now can we all play nice, please?


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## Jaguar (Nov 15, 2009)

this should serve as a pretty good example why we've chosen to disallow this stuff here entirely... it almost always sparks some kind of controversy and debate. :-\ no more.


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