# What a NIGHT! Help Needed!



## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, it's been another sleepless night in the land of rat ownership!

Katie, my 2 year old hairless (double rex) underwent surgery on Thursday to remove 3 mammary tumours from her armpits and groin. (I chose to have the surgery done as she's getting older now - needless to say, I'm feeling quite responsible for what's happened, incase these two are connected!). The surgery went well, she was given a Baytril injection that day and a long acting non-steroidal anti-inflammatory.

Coned her Thursday and Friday nights - to stop her niggling at her stitches, and left her to her own devices during the day, giving her only OTC childrens pain meds (as my vet wouldn't give me any prescription drugs - although he did OK the OTC medicine)

And, well, last night (her first night without her cone) everything was going great. No licking, chewing...she was running around, eating, drinking - acting like normal rat. Suddenly, as I was about to go to sleep at about 12:20am, I hear this heavy breathy squeaky wheeze coming from her cage. I pick her up and she can barely breathe!!! Well, I grabbed my mum, called the emergency vetinary hospital, and rushed her there ASAP.

By the time we'd gotten there (about 1am) the hard laboured breathing had gone, but the squeaky wheeze (although quieter) was still present. The intern looked at her, listened to her chest and it seemed reasonably clear. He says it's probably a chest infection and that I should go home and administer some oral Doxy.

Got her home, in the car as we pulled up in front of our house, she starts her breathy wheeze and her breathing begins to labour again. I put her in her cage and she went for a nibble of food, and a little chew at her treat bag and even had a drink! We decided to leave her a little while - as it cleared up before - but suddenly at 3:30 (we got home at 2:45) she starts struggling for breathe (I know this, because she started breathing through her mouth), squeaking, wheezing and twice she looked as though she was trying to gag!!

Back in the car, rushing her to the vets, she turns very lethargic. I get her there and they rush her away to put her on 100% oxygen and say they're going to keep her overnight. I ask them to check to see if she had anything in her throat - he said he'd check but it would be very hard.

I went home, called again this morning (twice) and they said the first time that her breathing rate had slowed (bare in mind she's a hairless - so breathes slightly faster than a regular rat anyway) but it looks quite fast to him still. She was apparently bright eyed and alert. The second time I called back they said she's been wheaned off the oxygen and is ready to be picked up.

Now she's home again - she still doesn't appear to be ok. She's had the tiniest nibble of food, a little drink and - priority - a whole chocolate drop she found in her food bowl. She's very tired (although I'm attributing it to stress) and very wheezy when she's breathing.

Has anyone else has similar experiences? It's all just happened so suddenly! When I have her her medicine before bed at about 11:30/midnight, she was absolutely fine! She's only been displaying the symptoms for just over 12 hours - but man - what a LONG 12 hours they have been!

What should I look out for? Is there anything I can do to make her feel better?


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## jorats (Sep 9, 2007)

I wonder if she may have choked on something? This can make the rat very stressed out, lethargic and wheezy. Which can start a myco flare up. Is she on Baytril? Doxy alone is not strong enough for an respiratory infection. 
Keep her warm, fed, give her some baby cereal or Ensure. Try not to give her too much sugar.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

She's on Bayril 0.1ml twice daily and now she's on Doxy (as of last night) 0.04ml twice daily (slightly higher than her usual dose, but Paul the vet last night said it would be better for a couple of days)

I thought she may have choked on something - because it just suddenly happened. Although, she appeared to be in bed at the time and not doing anything except sleeping. The vets also said they couldn't notice anything in her throat - but it was very hard to look! Now though, her wheeze sounds very much like one of my other hairless who's had it on and off for a while now. 

She's just laying in bed and wheezing on every exhale.

It's so sad, considering that yesterday she was absolutely fine


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

NOTE: I was going to try and give her some Lucozade (it's an energy drink) later, to try and perk her up. I usually do the ole honey and warm water trick - but Katie can't stand honey. Will the energy drink be ok? (I was just going to add an additional drinking bottle into her cage with this in, hoping she will have a couple of sips when she pleases)

It's not fizzy by the way. I get the still variety


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I have seen this once before.  I took in an older boy to be neutered (hormonal aggression) and he made it through the surgery fine. But he was my first neuter and I didn't know what signs to look for. He stopped moving and started having trouble breathing. I thought it was pain, since the younger boy who was neutered was doing very well. I ran him to the vet on Monday morning to find out that the surgery had started up an underlying respiratory problem we didn't know about. The vet gave him fluids and put him on oxygen, etc but he passed about 12 hours later. 

Keep a close eye on her. Baytril/Doxy might help. See if you can get an alternative to Ensure/Boost into her...food, calories and fluid all in one. Really good for sick ratties, strawberry seems to be a fav.

Is she dehydrated? Do you know the skin pinch?

Here is a great rehydrating formula (no honey)
Homemade rehydrating formula: 10 oz warm water, 1 tsp sugar, 1/3 tsp salt. Mix well, refrigerate extra, warm up to feed.

I am sorry Ration. ((hugs))


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## sweet_dreams91 (Oct 19, 2007)

I don't know much about rat health, or rat medication, but I wish you and your sweet hairless the best of luck.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Thank you very much, I'll certainly try that formula. I'm going to do some googling on Ensure (I've never heard of it, but will find something similar)

I've just taken her in the bath with me (I love the bath HOT so it gets very humid in the bathroom) and she laid down and slept throughout - minus 5 minutes of running around. She seems a lot less wheezy now, so I may steam her a couple of times before bed. I also have a decongestant (like vaporub, but it's a drop to put on her bedding and is made for children) to help any possible inflammation in her airways

She was dehydrated - it's one of the first things that I checked after getting her home - they had no water with her in her oxygen tank and only a couple of grains of doggy kibble (I think they held her as a lost cause last night, if I'm honest). She's drank a little more since being home - she drank quite a bit of cold water out of the tap from my palm during the bath.

I'm going to give her a capful of the energy drink - it's flavoured so it's a way of getting some liquid into her right now.

Thank you so much! Anything else I can do please PLEASE let me know, I'm certainly going to try my all for her


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

- Deleted as double entry - =/ sorry


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

sweet_dreams91 said:


> I don't know much about rat health, or rat medication, but I wish you and your sweet hairless the best of luck.


Thank you, and Katie thanks you too


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, I've made up a mixture of 2 parts babyfood, 1 part water and 1 part Lucozade (it's a sports drink) she's nibbled perhaps 5ml (that's the amount I put into a dish for her) but doesn't seem to want any more.

I will persist!

All she's wanting to do is sleep now. She's very wobbly on her feet. I've got her wrapped up in lots of face-cloths and I'll be giving her her monkey (a monkey shaped wheatie she sleeps with) every now and again. The only problem is it's lavender scented when warmed up - so I don't want to cause any further problems with her breathing.

Her breathing now is no longer wheezey, but is shallow and reasonably quick. I'm just going to let her sleep for a couple of hours - I hope a lot of this is down to the stress of being at the vets overnight - although I'd also hoped that she would have acclimatised to being home again by now (it has been 5 hours!)


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Sleep is a good thing, she's trying to heal her body. Let her sleep but wake her up in a few hours and see if she's thirsty/hungry. 5 ml's isn't bad...it'll keep her going. Just watch the dehydration.

Glad to hear of the improvement.

Many fingers and rattie toes are crossed here for her!!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm going to let her sleep until 8pm (it's now 6) and then give her her Baytril and see if she wants any more of the babyfood cocktail.

I'm glad she isn't wheezing as badly now - but she's very wobbly. I don't think she ate much at the vets (she's not a big dog food fan - she's spoilt, you see? Slumming it at the vets would have upset her) and I'm hoping it's just all the stress from the last few hours that's stopping her eating etc now. *cross fingers*

Thanks Lilspaz, as always, you are my rock XD lol


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

Is she on a pain med?


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

She was on childrens nurofen (ibuprofen based) because of the stitches. She's not had any today because the stitches are no longer bothering her and she's not been in the mood to clean much.

The ibuprofen was OKd by the vet - as he wouldn't give any other pain meds. Apparently 'none were suitable for rats'


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

She's just woken up and decided to get a little adventurous. She's gone climbing up Ritchie's cage, then Max's (albeit slightly wobbly). She's even decided to TRY to get onto the fllo. She's got plent of babyfood cocktail on board and I've just caught her trying to chew her treat bag!

I'm taking this as a good sign - I just hope it's not a faker.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Good news!!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

I hope so!!

She's fast asleep again now, but it's hopefully a good start.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

She's peeing a lot - is that to be expected? It started last night during the first breathing episode.

Could it be the ibuprofen? I know it's excreted through urine


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

I was just wondering about the pain meds because if she was in severe pain, that could trigger respiratory distress. Any level of stress experienced by a rat seems to be a trigger for a flair up. Pain meds would prevent that from happening. I don't think the ibuprofen would hurt. I think it's more helpful than anything.

Seems like you got her through though. Is the e-collar still on? That could be stressful for her too as she can't clean herself. But then again you don't want her to pull her stitches lol.

I think heavy urinating after surgery is too be expected. Hopefully she will pull through. It's so hard when they take surgery so badly.

Did they do pre-anesthetic blood work before putting her under anesthesia to make sure she was healthy enough? I know it's pricey but we require that for cat and dogs and I would hate to put a old rat under anesthesia without it knowing how drastically that can improve the safety of surgery. I wonder if this is practiced as often prior to rat surgery as it is cat and dog surgery?


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## ratrover (Nov 17, 2007)

what a night are u kidding me!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I have never heard of bloodwork pre-surgery for a rat.  They never offer it.


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## ratrover (Nov 17, 2007)

lilspaz68 said:


> I have never heard of bloodwork pre-surgery for a rat. ( They never offer it.


me neither


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## Poppyseed (Feb 1, 2007)

We require it for cats and dogs to ensure they don't have an underlying infection that could risk their lives when put under anesthesia. It might be placed into a lump price of the surgery, rather than itemized.

Maybe it's something I can ask my rat vet about? Or others can ask about. Not sure if it's something that would help with rat surgery or not.

It is around $100 though, so it is pricey. This could be a deterrent to charging but I think it should at LEAST be offered. Not sure what other clinics prices are and what other policies there are. If there is a sign that something is wrong, we usually put the animal on antibiotics (or some other treatment depending on what the bloodwork/exam shows) for a while and postpone the surgery.

My technical understanding of all of this is still vague (as I am just the receptionist and just learning vet tech) but from what I've been told it seems like a vital part that not everybody doing surgery participates in. That and post surgery antibiotics and pain medicine. I've never seen any animal have a hard time recovering from surgery in the six weeks I've been there. Then again we practice mostly preventative medicine so most of our surgeries are dental cleanings and spay/neuters. 

I will go ask the vet tech forum! Maybe they will know? I'll try to ask some co workers about this too.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Thank you guys for all your input.

Poppy, no I don't think they give pre-op blood work for rats. I've never even known my vet practice to offer a blood test for a rat (I've had the sickests rats in the past and they've refused to do a blood test because 'it's risky' and 'not a simple procedure'). This surprises me, because one of the things they offered to do for Katie if she didn't improve was a blood test using her tail vein!

Mind you though, post-op Katie was healthy as larry. No sniffles etc. Other than an eye infection, she was a healthy old girl.

Well, Katie's made it through the night and seems well enough. She ate 3/4 of an eggcup of babyfood cocktail - happily took her medicine in some blackberry and apple yoghurt babyfood. She's been running around quite happily on my bed (and causing trouble running around on mums bed while she was trying to change it XD) and is even using her hammock again!

I'll be taking her to my vets tonight for another check up - although her breathing it still fairly huffy - theres certainly no wheeze there any more.

Bad news though, it looks as though there's another lump starting on her side, and possibly one behind one of her stitch sites (I don't think it's an absess or anything, but will certainly get that checked out tonight)

Will the sh** never end! Geez!


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## Stephanie (Mar 25, 2007)

The extra lump behind the set of stitches may be a seroma (sp?) and nothing can really be done for those. They tend to reabsorb the fluid anyway. I have my fingers crossed for Katie though sounds like she is a tough girl and can handle it though!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

As Stephanie said it sounds like a seroma. Is it squishy? The fluid will pool into the pocket where the tumor used to be. The body usually reabsorbs it. Sometimes but not often it will need to be drained.

She sounds like she is going to be fine, just keep her on those meds and she should make a full recovery. Yay for Katie!!


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Yep, it's a squishy little bubble just behind her stitches. Glad to hear it may not be anything serious.

I was so SO worried about her this weekend - considering how bad she was saturday night. But now, although she's still got wobbly knocky knees, she seems much more like herself.

Thank you to everyone that's helped me through the last day or so - I'd be a messy lump of panicked jelly had you not been here!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

Since a lot of the world is of the "Ewww rats!" opinion, we have to be here for each other. And we want to too!


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## A1APassion (Jul 29, 2007)

I read a piece about hairless rats having a tendency of issues regarding sutures &/or certain types of sutures. This was a case with the neuter of the hairless male I have. He had to go back to the vet for lots of antibiotics & cleaning because of ***** build ups & the surgery site just plain not healing right.

I'll see if I can find the thing I read. It named a particular suture material that the hairless rats tend to reject.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

My wee hairless healed beautifully...who knows :roll:

I would say since she's a much older rat that her immune system isn't as good as it used to be, and that the vet left a small pocket where the fluid built up. If it makes you feel any better I will post a pic of my first rat tumour removal. They didn't tighten up her skin at all, and she was squishy for a few days until the body reabsorbed around the incision.

My poor litle Freya.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Poor Freya 

Katie's just been to the vets and her incisions are fine, the lumpy bits behind two of them are fluid, apparently as the lumps are under her arms which are used a lot, it's quite common.

He seems very pleased with Katie, he read all the notes from the hospital and they said, and I quote, "Katie was a pleasure to treat". XD Her chest sounds fine and she seems happy enough to him.

She may not be eating due to post op discomfort - so he suggested trying more Ibuprofen (I won't do that unless sure she's in pain - after last time =/)

But! He seems very optimistic! YAY!


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

We do have her on a low dose, so you could up it a bit if you want.

Yay for your sweet old gal  My nakie isn't doing nearly as well and may be losing her eye.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Oh no! I know you mentioned in a PM about it, Bella isn't it? What's exactly wrong with her eye? I'm sorry 

I've read that nakie's are prone to eye infections - Katie (ironically) is a sucker for them.


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## lilspaz68 (Feb 24, 2007)

I have been documenting her eye since it was injured. We think it was a scratch from her sister across the eye during a scuffle. Its possible the lens of the eye is detaching. She needs it removed (enucleation) but she is very old, has a URI and I don't have the money for that surgery right now. I have sick rats going in, and 2 neuters the day before. My poor Bella.


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## ration1802 (Sep 25, 2007)

Poor poor Bella. If only she was people, it could be an easy fix (well, I'm not doctor but my gran had something similar fixed by laser surgery).

All the love and hugs to the Beautiful Bella from my clan. We all hope things work out for you and her


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