# PetSmart rats?



## madeittothemoon

I know that a lot of people here are against pet store rats, but I was wondering what you thought of the rats at PetSmart. The only reason that I ask is because my Uncle works for corporate PetSmart, and he runs a lot of the grooming/Pet Hotel/Small animal sales in the Chicago area. I was talking to him about pet store rats today, and he told me a lot that surprised me about PetSmart.

I knew that each rat was "Vet Checked", but I didn't know how much that actually meant... appearently, each of the rats visits a vet AT LEAST once before they can ever be taken home. And if a rat gets sick while they're on the floor, they're taken into the back... and then taken to see a vet. That surprised me, because I figured a lot of Pet Stores would just euthanize an animal that was sick and injured.

Also, I know that PetSmart makes people sign a contract, which basically states that the rat will not be used as a feeder. And I've been told that they tend to jack up their prices, just to discourage people from using their rats as feeders.

I have heard, however, that their rats come from rat mills. Basically, I was just wondering how bad PetSmart really is. The only reason I ask is because three of my girls are from there (I had no idea about rescues or breeders before hand). I guess I just want to know what I'm in for as they get older :?


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## Kimmiekins

Petsmart rats do come from mills. So while some PMs are a LOT better than others (or than other pet stores), the rats don't come from the best environment/breeding standards.

It's hard to say what you have to look forward to, but I will tell you about the 4 pet store (all from PM, 2 from Miami, FL, 2 from here in Cincinnati) rats I have had...

3 of the 4 are dead and one is slipping away.

1 died from fluid in the lungs. The vet at the time said it was probably genetic CHF. He was about a year when he died.

1 had what appeared to be multiple strokes. He slipped into a coma-like state. We held out for a few days (desperate), but he passed away despite treatment. He was about a year and 4 months.

1 suffered from Cardiomyopathy from the day we got him. We had a few months where he'd do okay, but most of his life, he was sick and suffering. He grew weaker and weaker, despite treatment, and died at 7 months old.

And that leaves 1 left. He, too, is suffering from Cardiomyopathy. He doesn't eat much anymore, doesn't do much anymore... He has trouble breathing and his heart races constantly. Despite treatment, he's slipping.  He is about a year old.

So, basically? 3 out of the 4 had/have genetic diseases that shortened their lives. This, of course, can be blamed on bad breeding. The strokes, I'm not sure if we can say is genetic... But it's concerning none the less, especially since he wasn't very old.

YMMV. It's luck of the draw with rats that came from mills.

Also, from what I understand (from talking to many people who have or do work at Petsmarts both online and off), that not all stores follow what they're supposed to, as far as corporate rules. :? I know that some have great employees/managers, some don't. The one near us care for the animals well (at least, on-par with Petsmart rules, but that of course includes feeding Kaytee blocks, and those tiny cages, but they DO give fresh veggies, have clean cages and provide at least an igloo), but then pick up the rats by the tails (as they did with the 2 we got).  Yet, someone I know that works at a store elsewhere says they're told never to do that, so I don't know. Some Petsmarts don't actually seek vet care for sick rats, and some DO dispose of them it not nice ways. :x It really does seem to be a case-by-case basis, and I don't know if PM doesn't check all the stores enough, or what. Employees also don't always know what they're talking about, and give pretty awful advice on the average, as many new-owners who followed the advice of the employees often find out and have to purchace all new items (to the benefit of the store, of course!). Sigh!

I'm not *against* pet store rats, btw. Nope, not even as a rescue. Because if I was, I'd never take any pet store rats in (which 99.9% of all rescues ARE).  I know what you mean, though. It's not the rats themselves that are the problem, it's buying them (and shopping at the stores) puts money back in the pockets of the mills, and opens spots for more rats to be in the same situation. Don't want to start a debate about it here, but that's the problem people have - the mills and the conditions of animals in pet stores. They don't want to support that.


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## Sami

Petco does the same thing about taking sick animals to the back then getting them vet checked. It's strictly against all policies for us to euthanize an animal--even when there's no chance of it surviving. That doesn't mean that some stores run by awful people don't do that, but it is a HUGE no-no if they do, and if they're reported they can get in heaps of trouble for it.

The Petsmart here doesn't sell rats, and the breeder we get them from at this Petco sucks majorly...Not only do they send us sick rats, they send us other animals who are sick as well, like Hamsters and Guinea Pigs. I don't know if we're going to find a new breeder to get our rats from, but I know the sickness issue is pissing off a few of my coworkers, including myself of course.

Bare in mind though that all Petcos and Petsmarts are not the same. Animals get shipped to us from local breeders, so a Petco in Virginia doesn't get rats from the same breeder as a Petco in Washington state. Infact, in Washington we rarely--if ever--got sick rats at Petco. I had never seen a rat with Porphyrin before I transferred to the one I work at now, but now we see them all the time. *weeps*

I'd really prefer to not get my rats from a pet store, but at the same time I believe that where an animal is from doesn't matter, because it's not their fault that they don't have a pedigree. I have kind of mixed feelings, because those rats deserve homes just as much as any other.


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## twilight

[align=center]If you have a connection with a rat then it can't be helped where it's from and it shouldn't matter. But I avoid buying from pet stores and I'm starting to avoid breeders too after bad experiences. Adopting really seems to be a win win situation. I'm not a PETA fan but after watching the PETA Petsmart video I feel horrible just for shopping there.[/align]


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## pooky

the PetCo that is closw to me the rats look sad. they are all white and i think they are feeders so i tell my dad when we are going to a pet store to NEVER go there.


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## madeittothemoon

Oh man, Kimmie... looks like I'll have some giant vet bills in my future. I wish I had known better to begin with... but honestly, I don't completly regret getting the girls from PetSmart- they're amazing, and I'm so glad that they're in my life. I just wish that their lives could be a little more comfortable sometimes.

What do you think about adopting rats from accidental litters (when the parents came from pet stores)? I would imagine it wouldn't be too bad, considering the fact that the mother would probably only have the one pregnancy. I'd think that there would still be bad genetics, but maybe it wouldn't be that horrible? (maybe I'm completly wrong, haha)



Sami said:


> Bare in mind though that all Petcos and Petsmarts are not the same.


I've definitely noticed that... the PetSmart where I got my girls from seems to always be on top of everything. Everyone is fairly well trained, and the animals always seem to be healthy (and the employees even spened time socializing them... yay  ) On the otherhand, the two PetSmarts by my boyfriend's house never seem to be all that great... the people don't know much about rats, and a lot of them tend to bite. In the end, it seems that it just depends on how the manager chooses to run the store.


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## yashu

I have rats from petsmart that I LOVE, however... they have all been a royal pain in the ass as far as training. They fear poop more and longer, they need heightened QT, and they have a hard time adjusting to their new place, especially if they are older.

They are better than petco, that is for sure, but if you CAN find a breeder, go to one, but if you want a petsmart rat, just look out for signs of neglect, and try to grab a younger one if you can. 

My last adult petsmart rescue was Stone. He was full grown when he got to the store... and he STILL poops outside the cage, as does another petsmart rat that is about 6 months older.

The females seem to be the easiest to overcome their petsmart past, but the males, as lovable as all of mine are, still get scared and whatnot, but they do settle down and become laprats, I just have to keep a paper towel and a fork nearby. Stone will fall asleep on my lap, but he can't hold his business, so not sure what to say... Tiny is the same way.

Our breeder rats have all been great, and one petstmart rat that I got extremely young has been great as well, along with a full grown hairless dumbo that I got from there (he may never fear poop, but he can still get spooked). YMMV.

I would rather get a petsmart rat than a rescue fro the SPCA though... at least with petsmart, you somewhat know what to expect.

Avoid petco like the plague though... Petsmart is basically the only large petstore that you can buy a rat from and at least not have to worry about it being pregnant or something. They will come around, they will love you, even if it takes a bit more time. Petco rats are almost a lost cause... they are raised to feed snakes, where at petsmart, at least they are marketed as pets.

Also, every petsmart is different, and some do work with local breeders. I would ask. In my city, I have been to 4 petsmarts, and two get rats from local breeders, as was the case with my latest little guy, I bought him from petsmart, but he was obviously from a hand raised litter.


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## lilspaz68

The mills are the ones who sex and send the rats to PetSmart, I have heard many a story of the wrong sex being sent to an all-male or all-female store. 

I have heard all the stories back and forth about Petsmart rats/care. They do take a tiny bit more care overall than Petco (we don't have Petco's here in Canada) but when a rat goes out back, its just tucked out of sight, sometimes treated, sometimes not. 

I do not buy or even go into petstores any longer, because of the supporting of ratmills. They are breeding horrors.  I take in rescues, and as Kimmie said the majority were former petstore rats but I am taking them in without lining their pockets after someone else has neglected or gotten bored of them. 

I also refuse to buy any supplies at petstores since this also is pepetuating the continued breeding supply/demand of petstore rats.

We have a PJ's Pet here, that seems to be a good place from appearances until you talk to employees or former employees, then its horrific behind the scenes.

Pet store rats have their genetics/upbringing against them, but not all petstore rats will end up chronically ill. But its like playing russian roulette, you win some, you lose most.


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## sorraia

Honestly, PetsMart isn't much different from PetCo. It's a big corporation with many stores throughout the country. Although there are corporate rules and regulations, that does not mean every store follows those rules and regulations to a tee. In my area there are at least two PetCos and two PetsMarts. One of each of those stores are closest to me and I am most familiar with. Between the two of them, the PetCo is the better of the two. However, I would still not buy pets from them. Their animals do come from mills (no self-respecting, responsible, reputable, ethical breeder would give their animals to a pet store, never to hear of them again), and probably from the same mill. The store might be trying to help by vet checking the animals, but that is no guarantee for life. You get a two week (?) guarantee. After that you are on your own. What if you adopted a one month old baby from the store, it was just fine for the first three weeks, then on the fourth week it dies mysteriously? You have already bonded to that baby, and even if you haven't bonded closely it is still a painful process. This is the kind of thing to expect from a pet store. 

Another thing to consider: By supporting the pet store, you are also supporting the mills. While an individual pet store might take good care of its animals, do you know anything of the mill where those animals come from? For all you know there are thirty rats crammed into ten gallon aquariums, having babies on top of eachother, fed Ol' Roy dog kibble, and flushed down the toilet when they die. But every time you buy a live animal from a pet store, you are supporting that. The money you give the pet store for that rat (or cat, dog, bird, whatever) is put back into buying more animals from the mill. That money goes into the pockets of the mill as they skimp on good care and housing to make money while producing animals without going broke. 

Rather than supporting a pet store, an organization that is trying to make money off the animals they sell, support a good cause. Go to responsible, ethical, reputable breeders and rescues, rather than pet stores. Yes, it might be a little bit harder to adopt a rat than it would be to walk into a store, slap the money down, and take your new pet home, but it will be worth it in the end. The money given to these good breeders and rescues goes back into the care of the animals, it doesn't go into their pockets.


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## Sami

I agree with Sorraia on the fact you can't tell what kind of life the rat was born into, so you have no idea what you're getting into from buying from a pet store.

I don't know what kind of farm the rats from my old Petco lived on before they came to us, but even though they were all quite skittish (especially females. The males were always a little bit more tame), they were healthy... But the rats we get at this Petco are not only skittish, but they all have horrible health problems. I don't know anything for sure, but I assume they keep their rats loaded into 10 gallon aquariums with unclean cedar bedding (Not that clean cedar is any better), considering how many die of upper respiratory infections. According to one of the Team Leads, she's even had a couple rats die during the car ride to the vet.

I would get a rat from my old Petco in WA, because even though I don't know what kind of life they lead in the farm, considering we never, ever received a traveler full of sick rats, and I had never seen a rat with porphyrin before, I trust that any rat I get from that place will have a fair-quality life. Maybe not good quality, but fair. ...But I would never, ever get a rat from the place I work now, in VA.. Or any pet besides a fish, for that matter. :/

All in all I would really prefer a breeder though. Still looking for one, myself.


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## Hippy

I think it could depend on the store really, depending on who the people are taking care of the animals, caring if they are sick or not. My first first was from Petsmart and she lived to be 2.5 with no problems, but at the same time, at the local Petco, I would NEVER buy a rat from.

Hmmm..


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## Charlet_2007

my first 3 rats after i was married to my husband was from pet werehouse.. names were bazzels, razzles and dazzles lol... bazzles lived for 3 years and was about 3 lbs.. he was buff and white bershire rex.. i miss him so much.. hes was a great little boy.. not all pet store rats are bad tho is all i'm saying...


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## lilspaz68

RAt Mills usually use lab bins and cram the rats in. I am so surprised that link from fancyrat.uk never made it onto here...

cross-posted from another forum, this not only has the link but also the communcation with the original viewer. Just remember this is a GOOD rat mill...can you imagine the ones that are hidden?

http://jorats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2113


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## lilspaz68

btw my last petstore rat is 33 months old, and wasn't sick during most of her life. She is now developing abscesses and she has mostly had to live alone since she hated other rats and would _kill_ them if she could.

She has done some serious damage to some of my rats and incurred some serious vet bills.

Lovely girl to me NOW but her aggression just proves she was not bred well.


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## twilight

> I would rather get a petsmart rat than a rescue fro the SPCA though... at least with petsmart, you somewhat know what to expect.


 Well everyone has their own opinion but...you know you are getting a rat from a mill. You know you are encouraging them to buy more rats from the mill by handing them money, they think you are supporting them.


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## Emster

I have 2 Pets At Home (which were formly PetSmart) and the one is complete and utter rubbish (unfortunely, the one where I got my girls from). Yet the other one is much better, the people seem much friendlier and know what they are talking about when it comes to the animals.

To get to the point, I brought Dotty and Doris from the rubbish store. Dotty was pregnant when I brought her, lost her eye pretty much a few days after giving birth and now has a lump on her side.
Doris is very timid, doesn't like being handled and constantly jumps away from me. Altho Dotty is very tame and loves to come out.


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## tialloydragon

Nyah, my very first rat, was from Petsmart. It took a little bit of time for her to become socialized to me, but it all worked out. She's really healthy, active, and energetic. 

She's never been terribly affectionate, and she used to bite. She had a cagemate who was not socialized and was also a biter, so I got rid of her. Then I introduced Nyah to my two adopted girls, Torri and Garnet, and now she doesn't bite, and she boggles all the time.

Pick your poison.


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## yashu

Not every petsmart gets from "mills". Here, there are two stores that I know of that sometimes get litters from local breeders. I have had some good rats from Petsmart, and without having to worry about what the previous owner did. 

I respect your opinion. I am not saying that it's wrong, just that, without petsmart, number one, many people would not be able to get rats or rat supplies. You think everyone is going to know a breeder, or know how to find one? No way! If many SPCA rats come from former petsmart rat owners then not only are you getting what resulted from being raised on this mill or ect, but you are also getting one more unknown link in the chain, the previous owner(s). I don't know about you... but this country isn't exactly full of the most responsible people in the world... the less people between the rat and I, the better for me and the better for the rat.

I know breeders now, but petsmart is the only local and affordable place around for general supplies. My first rats were from there as well... two locally bread dumbo selfs, both from the same litter.

You aren't going to stop the mills... all you are going to do is leave a few extra rats for some irresponsible kid, or some snake lover, to buy in the future. 

Now... I am getting OT, but, it *IS* commendable that you are trying to educate new buyers here. I am not putting any of you down for your stance. Education is never a bad thing, I think we can all agree on that.


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## sorraia

yashu said:


> I respect your opinion. I am not saying that it's wrong, just that, without petsmart, number one, many people would not be able to get rats or rat supplies.


There's nothing wrong with PetsMart (or any other pet store) selling supplies, it's the live animals sold that people have issue with.



> You think everyone is going to know a breeder, or know how to find one? No way! If many SPCA rats come from former petsmart rat owners then not only are you getting what resulted from being raised on this mill or ect, but you are also getting one more unknown link in the chain, the previous owner(s).


That's the beauty of word of mouth. If no pet stores sold animals, people would have no choice but to go to a breed or a rescue. Person A knows Person B who has a rat, falls in love with rat, and wants to get one. Asks Person B where they got their rat. Person B just happened to get the rat from a wonderful breeder, passes on contact information. Person A goes to breeder, gets rat.

As far as getting rats from rescues - yes, many of them are ultimately from pet stores, but when they come out of a rescue, they are no longer pet store property. The money used to adopt said rat goes to the rescue, and is put right back into the care of those animals, and rescuing other animals. Buying an animal from a pet store is NOT rescuing, it is purchasing. The money does not go to the betterment of the animals, it goes toward making a profit (no matter how seemingly insignificant the price may be, it is still a profit or else the store won't be selling the "product"). True, by adopting a rat from a rescue you have an unknown. You know nothing about their health, nothing about the temperaments in their background. If it's a good rescue, they won't adopt out aggressive animals (at the time of adoption). But you won't know what the future holds. However, those animals still need loving homes. That's not to say pet store rats don't deserve loving homes either, by all means they do! Unfortunately by purchasing from pet stores, you are doing nothing more than supporting the pet store and encouraging them to put more animals into that situation. Rescues at least are trying to stop that situation.

Now unfortunately there's little any one can do about irresponsible people (and you are right, there are LOTS of them out there!), except to try to educate them. But that's why adopters need to do their research. If you don't want to take a "risk" with rescue rats, go with a breed, BUT first do your research and find one who is responsible, reputable, and ethical. Don't go to the first breeder you find because they have cute babies, find someone you WANT to support because you agree with what they are doing.


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## yashu

Earlier posts were placing buying supplies from there in the same camp as buying a rat from there.

And word of mouth only goes so far. Let me put it to you this way... when the average person thinks to himself: "I want a pet rat, where shall I get my pet?" The pet store is going to likely be the first thought. It certainly is when you think of any other pet, why not rats?

If you really want to make a difference, convince petsmart to adopt out rats like they (I don't agree with this, but it is an option for people that think the way that you do) with dogs and cats. 

You see, the problem here is not that rats are sold in pet stores... or any animal... it is that rats serve as a dual role in the pet world, both as a pet and as food for a pet. If dogs and cats where food staples for some larger domesticated animal, I am sure you could buy them in the same way. There is nothing crucial about a dog or a cat that makes them any more special than a rat, just different, but dogs and cats are not a food staple for other pets. Rats are a food staple as well as a pet, and I don't know a lot about snakes and reptiles, but you can't train them all to eat dead rats... and even the sale of dead ones benefits the mills. 

I, personally, would rather be able to buy whatever the **** pet I want at any pet store, within reason... (domesticated and semi-domesticated) I would rather more effort going into improving the conditions at the breeding farms, because they aren't ever going to go away anytime soon. A few rat lovers are not going to take away much business, nor are a few local ratteries. What I am saying is, that I commend you for providing humane options for obtaining rats for people "in the know", but don't kid yourself that it is going to do anything to change the situation inside petsmart and the larger breeding farms. It is going to take strict regulation and oversight to do that, but like any commodity (that is what they are), good luck. All the PETA campaigns in the world can't get KFC to stop torturing chickens, people want their spicy chicken, they want it with little effort on their part, and they don't care as long as it tastes good, know what I'm sayin'?


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## lilspaz68

It is that defeatest attitude that will keep the mills going. 

In certain parts of the world it is illegal to sell animals as food in petstores...maybe one day we will get to this ourselves?

Petstores get their rats from these horrible farms/mills. Buying a rat from a petstore ends up putting money back in the pocket of that breeding hellhole.

If people refuse to buy the rats from these places, maybe they will realize its not as profitable and STOP breeding so many. THEN we can get all the deserving rats dying in shelters, or set "free" in the woods, or being bred back to back to back for "pritty babies" into real homes.

You have to think of the _Big Picture_ here, not the individual rats, those places and the petstores sure aren't seeing them as anything other than stock. 

It will take time and it will take effort on every rat person's part, but there's no saying it cannot be done over time.


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## Charlet_2007

but if you actually think of it rats as a animal wasn't suppose to to be a pet at all.. they are are scavengers... just like vultures.. but you don't see people wanting them as pet WHY? they don't have a cute face... would you be that mad if you saw a person breeding vultures like that? 

then your all saying well its not good breeding is the reason they have a bad temperament.. breeding has nothing to do with there temperament.. i mean of coarse if im not wrong you want to get a female and a male with good temperament and hope to god you get the same temperament out of the litter as you did he mom and dad.. but that's not how they were in the wild.. you cant blame them for lashing out if they not tamed as a rat pup.. which if you bought her from a pet store then you wasn't there when she was born.. i think it's all on how they were raised from birth..

I've had some that i've raise the mom and dad were both as calm as can be and so was there mom and dad and so on and so on but the babies on the other hand if i didn't spend to much time with them became aggressive over time.. not because of the breeding because it was my own stupid fault of not holding them on a daily basics.. so my point is i'm about 100% sure breeding has nothing to do with the rat itself...

and when you breed 9 times out of 10 you breed for color or markings first am i right then worry about the temperament later... because you know a person going to go for what they see first, what looks kool to them and what others think is cool they'll buy or adopt.. because if not if they were in it for good temperament and not colors and markings then everyones ratties that are needing a home would find a home... So i'm pretty sure we wouldn't be stuck with a bunch that had good temperaments but not the colors and markings everyone wants... thats just my 2 cents


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## Kimmiekins

> And word of mouth only goes so far. Let me put it to you this way... when the average person thinks to himself: "I want a pet rat, where shall I get my pet?" The pet store is going to likely be the first thought. It certainly is when you think of any other pet, why not rats?


As a rescue, I can tell you this is certainly not always the case. The more that word gets around, the busier we get. We've been at this for a little less than a year, and have a waiting list. Yes, people are willing to wait to rescue, they are not saying, "Oh, I'll just go buy a rat at the store, then." MANY people who haven't even owned rats are contacting us, because they don't want to support pet stores with live animals, no matter what animal they're considering. I can't tell you how many emails I get saying, "I'm interested in pet rats, but I do not want to support pet stores." or even "I'm interested in pet rats, but I am a big believer in rescuing over buying."

The "trend" in pets now is moving away from buying in stores and to rescuing or (ethical) breeders. This is very largely due in part to word of mouth. It's also due to people taking a stand against pet stores. 1 by 1, people don't want to support businesses that engage in (possible) shady practices, such as getting their animals from mills and backyard breeders.

Natalie: I don't know of any well-respected, ethical breeder that doesn't breed for temperament. I'll let any breeders field it, but I know for sure of a least 5 (personally) that DO breed for temperament. Part of what makes for *good* breeders IS breeding rats that do have good temperament. Also, for health. THEN for colors and markings. That's what makes a good breeder over a not so good one... Health, temperament, THEN color/markings.

Beyond that, there is a big difference between wild rats and domesticated rats. It's really not fair to compare the two... It's like comparing feral cats to domestic cats or wild dogs to domestic dogs.


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## A1APassion

yashu said:


> <snip>
> And word of mouth only goes so far. Let me put it to you this way... when the average person thinks to himself: "I want a pet rat, where shall I get my pet?" The pet store is going to likely be the first thought. It certainly is when you think of any other pet, why not rats?<snip>


Extremely good point. I've had pet rats for well over 25 years. I have gotten them from pet stores, from friends who had litters, from friends who were unsuccessful with feeding it to their snake/reptile/whatever. I have taken in rescues from people who no longer wanted or could keep their pet. 

BUT....

I had never ever heard of anyone who was a designated "Breeder" of any caliber until I started looking for a hairless rat nearly 2 years ago. 

When I googled hairless rats I had links pop up for all types of things. Organizations for rats, Clubs for rats, discussion groups for rats... the list goes on. I had no idea that their were entire communities dedicated to the love of this quirky little creature we all love dearly. So this is an extremely good point... here I, a long time lover of rats for nearly 3 decades didn't know about breeders or rescues". How is the novice or first timer going to know anything about where to find a rat other than out of a feeder bin at a local pet store? Word of mouth only caries so far. If you want to reach people you will need much better marketing tools than word of mouth. But the getcha on this whole word of mouth is that people smack down so many people out there that are breeding quality pets & those who are elevated to the ranks of the "shiznit of grand rat breeders"... well the waiting lists are infinite & they refuse to let their rats go to those they don't deem as worthy. So again, it is far easier to plop down $5, $10, $15 or more at a retailer to get the pet you want. Why go through the headache of travel & waiting lists? 



> If you really want to make a difference, convince petsmart to adopt out rats like they (I don't agree with this, but it is an option for people that think the way that you do) with dogs and cats.


If we can't get them to do it with critters such as fish, birds, rabbits, hamsters & gerbils (etc), they surely aren't going to do it with rats. The point is they are a supplier, they have to maintain the stock to satisfy their consumers. Pets in pet stores are just stock sitting on the shelves & stock is to be moved as quickly as possible & shelves are to remain stocked with the most desirable products.



> You see, the problem here is not that rats are sold in pet stores... or any animal... it is that rats serve as a dual role in the pet world, both as a pet and as food for a pet.


Another exceptionally valid point. Rats are not just pets their are also part of the diet of another extremely popular pet. Look at other cultures. In the western world we are repulsed by the idea of our doggies & kitties being mistreated. Do you realize in asian cultures they are found on the menu?



> If dogs and cats where food staples for some larger domesticated animal, I am sure you could buy them in the same way. There is nothing crucial about a dog or a cat that makes them any more special than a rat, just different, but dogs and cats are not a food staple for other pets. Rats are a food staple as well as a pet, and I don't know a lot about snakes and reptiles, but you can't train them all to eat dead rats... and even the sale of dead ones benefits the mills.
> 
> I, personally, would rather be able to buy whatever the **** pet I want at any pet store, within reason... (domesticated and semi-domesticated) I would rather more effort going into improving the conditions at the breeding farms, because they aren't ever going to go away anytime soon. A few rat lovers are not going to take away much business, nor are a few local ratteries. What I am saying is, that I commend you for providing humane options for obtaining rats for people "in the know", but don't kid yourself that it is going to do anything to change the situation inside petsmart and the larger breeding farms. It is going to take strict regulation and oversight to do that, but like any commodity (that is what they are), good luck. All the PETA campaigns in the world can't get KFC to stop torturing chickens, people want their spicy chicken, they want it with little effort on their part, and they don't care as long as it tastes good, know what I'm sayin'?


This is where I find one minor disagreement with your train of thought. Though I agree that we should be able to get the types of pets we would like to have there is a fine line between animals that should be domesticated & those who should not be domesticated. There are MANY types of pets out there right now that in my opinion, should have never been removed out of nature & had a price tag placed upon them. 

As for regulation of breeding or owning rats, I believe their are things happing with the Animal Welfare Act. Time doesn't permit me to pull up the most to date rulings but I believe there are things going on to place protections for a few species that are not currently protected. (please, if someone has the link to current legislation on this, post the link)

Many species are not covered with protections & once they are the government will place limits on the numbers you will be allowed to keep & what you do with them while they are in the care. I believe I read one article that stated that if a person has more than 2 pairs capable of breeding that they would need to obtain a license to have them. (again I wish I had the time to pull up the link where I read this... I'm on my way out the door).

So there are things moving forward to add protections & to place regulations & guidelines on many species, including rats but along with the good their will be some rules that many will think to be bad.

If people would just be accountable & responsible about the proper care & education of the animals that they take home... the world would be a better place. Sadly it is we humans that are fracking the world up & when it comes to pets... most often it is uneducated impulsiveness that rules our choices with pets. We are overwhelmed with the "awwww factor" & the mentality of a disposable society.. if it don't work out. I'll just get rid of it & get something else.

The real area that needs to be regulated & the real way to change the horrors of discarded & unwanted pets is to place the restrictions upon the consumers. 

Yashu, thank you for a thought provoking post.


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## yashu

You know... that is how I found the local breeder I go to, weird eh? We were looking for hairless females, young ones. Petsmart only gets hairless in occasionally, and they are usually full grown or not true hairless. 

I like the idea of breeding for temperament first, but I hope that doesn't mean we are seeing some sortof genetic defect as a docile trait. (I feel sorry for some dog breeds, from over domestication)


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## madeittothemoon

I would imagine that the PetSmart that I got my girls from uses a fairly decent breeder... all three of my PetSmart girls are EXTREMLY social, and I only had to put effort into socializing one of them. I've never had any problems with biting, and only one of my girls would fear-poop (that lasted about two months).

It is nice to see pet stores taking in rescues. There's a PetCo close to me that had rescues one time when I went in. Of course, they told me that the boys that were up for adoption HAD to be placed alone, since they didn't do well with other rats. I had a really hard time believing that... considering the fact that there were several of them that fit into that category.

The problem that I've encountered with breeders is that it takes SO long to adopt- most of the breeders in my area wait list people for a year. And some of them are VERY particular... my roommate was actually turned away from a breeder because she doesn't give her rats bottled water.

Basically, I think that my next rats will either be rescues or from a breeder. It's a pain to find rescues- there are two HS within 45 minutes of me that take in rats. Other than that, all I've been able to find is breeders that occasionally will take in rats.


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## Kimmiekins

Don't forget that many (most) rescues WILL attempt to get rats to you. Make sure to check surrounding states.

Like, for example, we are down in SW Ohio. Beyond Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana, I've adopted to Tennessee, Missouri, Michigan and West Virgina.


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## madeittothemoon

Is there any way that you would adopt to central Illinois? My school is about 45 minutes from Terre Haute.


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## Kimmiekins

Heck yeah.  I have transporters in the area, so that wouldn't be a problem.


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## madeittothemoon

Kimmie, I'm looking into getting another cage (the one I have right now is barely big enough for four rats. It's not currently a problem, but I'm worried about how it'll be for them once they're all full grown). Once I find another one on Craig's List that I can afford, I'll certainly get in touch with you about bringing home a couple more rats!


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## melisscious

Hey everyone... I'm new... just joined today. I've worked at Petsmart, and my boyfriend still does. I can honestly say that it's not really the store so much as the employees and their regulations of Petsmart Policy and Procedures. Nearly anywhere you go, you'll encounter a ratmill rat, either by connection or by generation. It's just how it is... Corporate pet stores on the other hand are both very similar and very different. I've worked for three different corporate pet chains... and every one of them was different from the last. I'd have to say PetCo was the absolute worst, right next to Petland... those places should be shut down in all honesty. PetSmart does not have every animal vet-checked at least one time... that's a load of poop. If the animal is sick enough or is having an issue, it most likely will hit up a vet. But when they say "vet-checked", that just means someone with a certificate gives them a once over (literally) and ships them out. I do have to say though, PetSmart is addiment about not selling feeders to anyone. I can recall quite a few times when customers stormed out of the store because I alone wouldn't sell them feeder mice or guppies or rats. 

I think it all boils down to how much you take on your role as the pet parent. If you buy a feeder rat and give it a home, you'll probably have health issues... but think of the life you're saving. That's kinda how I feel when I do buy my rats from PetSmart.... I'm the one giving them the home and the love. It's a very rare thing to find hardcore rat breeders who know every little thing about their animals, and have gotten them from non-ratmill rat generations. If you've bonded with an animal, who cares where it's from. Give it the love and care it deserves. That's all you can do.


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## BekahBear

i just wanted to post about my not so fun experience with petsmart. i have a couple cages of rats so me and my boyfriend went there to buy another bag of aspen bedding for them. we stopped and looked at the rats and hamsters out of curiosity. and in their tank marked "blue Rats" was one of the sweetest looking little guys we had seen. he was being picked on by the others and my boyfriend fell in love with him so we ended up getting him even though i'm usually against pet store pets, and my boyfriend named him Ratchet. he had a bite wound looking sore on his shoulder but we really thought nothing of it since he was being picked on at the petstore. we kept him in a seperate room from our others to quarantine him just to be safe. anytime he or the tank were touched we made sure to wash up really well. well about a week after getting him my boyfriend developed a rash on his neck. we went to the doctor and it was ringworm so we went out and bought the cream to treat it. only then did we realise what that round iritated bald patch on ratchet's shoulder really was. my boyfriend must have touched his neck or something before washing his hands. we immediately called the petsmart we got Ratchet from and they said bring him in and they would have him checked over by the vet. Banfield(the veterinary office inside the petsmart we go to) looked him over and did a skin scrape on him. they said we would know the results in 2 weeks. so we took ratchet home and he went back into his quaranteen tank. the only problem is that now all the rats have been exposed to it since my boyfriend has it. when the results for the ringworm test for Ratchet came back it was positive. at least Banfield and Petsmart worked together and the multiple vet visits and treatment for Ratchet and the rest our rats was free of charge, but then we had to treat ALL our rats and disinfect the enclosures 3 times a week for over a month. let me tell you, bathing 9 rats with medicated shampoo3 times a week, disinfecting the enclosures 3 times a week, and spot treating any suspicious marks daily is A LOT of work. overall, 4 of our other rats ended up with suspicious marks and hairloss during the time when they were exposed and being treated. now everyone is happy and healthy and Ratchet is the sweetest rat you could imagine. hes like a lap dog, but we will NEVER AGAIN purchase an animal from petsmart.


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## rat_ratscal

they probably do come from mills like said, but i got my girls from petsmart, they came vet-checked and they are perfectly healthy now (I think) and they were on carefesh and rat food instead of pine and seeds like where i got my first rats, and the woman who got them out for us had rats at home so she knew what she was talking about, i wanted to rescue but im sure my parents weren't gonna want to take the time to find them. i also buy all my supplies from petsmart


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## crackerjackmyrat

yea petsmart takes them back and takes them to the vet. I have a little rattie at the vet now, had him on quarantine and he turned out having pnuemonia so i returned him and hes getting awesome care actually, hes been to the vet a few times now and can almost come home. Petco does the same. I've seen everyone buy them as feeders tho..all a contract takes is a little lie no one really cares.


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## BekahBear

yeah they do take really good care of them if you notice they are sick and bring them back in. i was actually really impressed with the way they handeled it. but the thing is they shouldn't be selling sick animals in the first place. some things such as slight resperitory infections are fairly easy to treat and get rid of, but other things can be a lot more difficult to get rid of once it is brought into your house. ringworm for example is very contagious. even with being careful and quarantening Ratchet, 4 of our other rats ended up with obvious signs of it as well as my boyfriend. ringworm can spread to people and other pets in the household. if left untreated it can become very serious in small children, kittens, and puppies. i'm sure that if ratchet had it so did other pets that they sold to people. i feel sorry for the other people that ended up with it too because if they didn't immediately recognise that the source was their new pet and take it back to petsmart for treatment they would have to pay for the vet bills and treatment themselves. were just happy that its over and done with and that Julie (my boyfriends almost 2 year old daughter) never ended up with it.


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## Kimmiekins

> But the thing is they shouldn't be selling sick animals in the first place.


Bingo!!


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## yashu

One thing I do not trust is their vets. They are cat and dog vets.

If you take in a rodent they will not treat it with the right meds. They won't give them batryl, they will only put the guy in a holding tank and that is that. It is a waste of time, and if you try banfield, a waste of money, if they don't turn you away outright.

Their vets are cat and dog vets... that is just the reality.

I may have gotten good rats from there, but I would NEVER trust their vets.


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## Emster

I've got to say that I would never trust the vets at PetSmart/Pets At Home. I'd much rather go to my regular vet.

I'd also NEVER buy a rat from a place where the employees pick them up by the tail. I wanted to buy a sweet little dumbo girl from a garden centre/pet store near by me, as soon as the woman opened the cage and picked the rat up by the tail to show me, I went off the idea.
Altho saying that, I probably would've brought her but at the time, they weren't ready for sale.

I wish I'd had the guts to have asked them what the **** they were doing putting young rats on the shop floor and even more so picking them up by their tails!


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## dragonegg

this is such an interesting thread. I didn't know about rat mills, and the pictures made me sad. Both my girls are from our local petstore. So far they've been healthy, but we haven't had them that long yet.

Now--for my future with rats (because I can't see a future without them, apparently)--what would be the ideal place to get your rats from? I live in a small, isolated northern community where rats are considered exotic pets (and they are only sold as feeders at the petstore). I have considered ordering from a reputable breeder over the internet, but I worry about the rats having to travel so far to get to me. I think that might be traumatic for them. 

Any ideas?


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## yashu

They are considered exotics here, and so it is hard to find vet service, but I know of two good places in town. 

I will say that petsmart rats, they have not been the healthiest, but I have never seen any outright abuse at the stores. I have not seen tale picking-up, and I know that a few of the people that work in several of the stores also own rats themselves and often try to "sell" rats onto prospective small animal buyers. I think rats make a better pet than any hamster or gerbil, but that is just me. They are my favorite rodent, anyway, with mice a 2nd tier.


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## SamAnthrax

So... I work at Petsmart, as much as I hate to say it. All the pets are vet checked- but I gotta say the vets are probably really stupid.

I work at a Chicago area petsmart.

The breeder that we get our small animals from is a breeder called Rainbow. I got to say one improvement in petsmart I noticed is we stopped selling syrian hamsters (short hair, long hair, teddy bear, panda etc.) We only sell dwarfs because they get wet-tail a lot less. 

The rats we get in however almost always have scabs, or something along those lines. We won't put the rats on the floor if they're sick but even the healthiest rat seems to have something wrong with him. 

And as far as the quarantine room, the sick room we have in back. We bring them back there, make a chart etc. but we don't ALWAYS bring them to the vet. As my store manager tells us, the animal is only worth $5, $10, vets bills are hundreds. 

I don't buy anything but fish from my store, because I don't want to support the mills. 

I hate petsmart but they pay well, and give me hours. I try to make sure the pets are getting as best care as possible. 

BUT if you do buy a pet from petsmart and sign the contract, that means if you notice your pet is sick within 14 days you can bring it to the store and they have to bring it to the vet and pay the bills for you. I sold a rat and I told the girl about this, she came in the next day because she noticed his breathing was off, we spent hundreds in bringing it to the vet, had it in the sick room for two weeks and medicated him day and night until he was healthy. We called her and she came and picked it up.

Thats one good thing about petsmart.


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## keykaye

my rats i bought from petsmart, they are my first. I had bought 3, two have passed away but none of the reasons are related to the store itself. My first died from a tail injury and we put her to sleep because she was in a lot of pain and was chewing at her tail. my other girl passed from old age and illness but lived to be 3 and 1/2 years old. My other girl is also 3 and 1/2 and is super spunky and full of energy, she is curently a lone and i am debating getting more rats from the store or buying babies from a breeder. I do believe their rats come from mils, and sometimes when you buy rodents they are very scared of people. I had gotten a fancy rat but i had to take her back because we have a small child in the house and the rat had bitten me really badly, through the fleshy part of my finger. Lucky my three girls i got afterwards were super friendly. However when i bought them they were all slightly sick, but i got free vet visits for them because they were from their stores. So all i have to say is try your luck, and see how social they are when you buy them. I think getting them from stores is also a good thing because you are giving a animal in a small cage thats hardly ever played with a good loving home.


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## cagedbirdsinging

Please keep an eye on post dates when responding to threads and avoid posting in topics that have been inactive for more than several weeks. Thank you!


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