# Immersion/intro need some help here



## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Alright. I got two new adult female rats(Quinn and tallulah) in February. I already had two perfectly happy non aggressive wonderful rats(ada and pinky). I wanted one more in case something happened to the other but ended up bringing two home because i felt bad for them. Needless to say i did intros and everything seemed fine. So i put them together. Three days no problem and then they (ada and tallulah) got in a massive fight while i was at work. multiple wounds on both of them the other two rats were not touched. So i came home separated them (i have a feisty ferret and its similar to a dcn in that it can be one cage or two separate cages) and was going to restart intros. 

I got them all out on neutral ground and began intros again. Well i put them back in their cage and the two fighters managed to end up in the same cage. I got bit bad trying to get them out. My towel was at the neutral area and so i shoved my hand in there. I was bit 3 times ended up on two antibiotics and its been two months and i still have issues with my hand. The pictures attached are my hand towards the end. It did get worse believe it or not. I ended up with massive swelling almost to my elbow. Needless to say all intros stopped at that point because i was scared. Ive been working on getting back on the horse with handling them. Kind of like after you've been in a bad car accident its hard to get back in a car. Well i finally think i am better but the rats are all messed up. 

The new girl thinks she my alpha. If i stick my hand in the cage to pet them or pick up turds she puffs up and will nip at me repeatedly. Outside the cage she is fine but inside she is a nightmare. I can't put my hand near tallulah without her nipping me. 

They are tearing up the fleece in the bottom of the middle level trying to get at eachother and one of my girls has been declawed a few times because they've chewed up the plastic tray separating the top and the bottom.

Im at wits end here and Im ready to make this nonsense stop! i want my happy rats back!  i want to be able to clean the cage without worrying about my fingers. I am considering immersion training but i Dont know how to go about it. Would i start with the one who thinks she is my alpha or all 4 at once? How do i keep from getting bit badly? what do i do to show her Im the alpha? 

Those of you that have tried immersion could you help me? Im willing to take a day off work and lock us up and get this sorted out.

Thanks 

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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

I think it's time to take a day off work to get it sorted. You need all of your rats to view you as the alpha and also to be happy and comfortable in their surroundings before they'll get along with each other. You definitely need to work on your biter first and foremost--let me know if you want specifics on what to do with her.


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## moonkissed (Dec 26, 2011)

Not to hyjack your thread but what is immersion training? I don't think I have heard of it before & google gave me nothing lol

I am really sorry that happened. Maybe she is still not feeling very safe in her cage since it is connected to the others? If you had another cage maybe you could put her in a different room for a week or so seeing if she calms down at all?? Im not sure if that would help at all but maybe.

I hope someone else can offer u some good advice and that you can work this out. How sad


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Immersion training is pretty much something that someone came up with one this forum that a lot of people have had luck with. I don't think she is scared because she will just randomly try to get at the rats above her. The puffing just recently started too maybe three weeks ago. 
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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

First of all, you need to do a lengthy, probably 6 hours plus immersion session with your two new girls, so they recognise you as alpha. Then, you need to do introductions carefully and slowly. This sounds like a tough case, worse than my girls and they hate new rats (so I currently have 2 separate groups). With that much aggression I'd say you'd need to be doing at least one intro session a day for a good few weeks, so they are regular and get used to each other. You should do each session just enough so they can stand it. Did you have them with the cages side by side first, and try cage swapping? I'm thinking you'll need to go right to the beginning with this one. Try these links, they may help. But yes, first do the immersion. Be aware there may be a chance that your rats will never get along and will have to live permanently in different cages, sometimes this happens when the residents are so aggressive at first (my older rats Storm and Rosie are very aggressive, even between cages you can see they're after blood and the other 2 rats Ellie and Lily are much younger and very soft, it's a shame). Both my existing girls bit the new rats too, fortunately not me as I used gloves.

http://www.shadowrat.com/rats/intros.html
http://www.joinrats.com/Introductions/BabySteps/11217828_CdjZnT#!i=708713328&k=q9F69Bg


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

What situation did the two new females come from. You said you felt sorry for them, so........ were they in a bad place?

What I would do is.... Isolate Tallulah from the others. Yeah, I'd make her a lonely rat for a while. If you feel sorry and don't want to make her lonely......Just remember that you got "RIPPED APART BY THEM"...... Not to mention what they did to each other. 

Then see if the other 3 can live peacefully together. If they do, let them stay together. If not, you can work on the rest of them later. You didn't mention any problems with Quinn and the other girls, so I'm hoping there's not a problem there. 

So,

After you isolate, Tallulah you can start to work on her attitude. Make sure you isolate her "away" from the others. So she shouldn't be able to see, smell or hear the other rats. A separate room is even better. Let her know if she "can't play nice.... she can't play at all". Once she starts to become more "passive".... allow her a few minutes here and there to visit with Ada. Since Ada is the one she fights with, those are the two that need to make peace with each other. Keep some gloves handy for "just in case". Don't let them visit while sitting on your lap, because that's a good way to get bit. Let them visit in a neutral area. If they don't get along.... obviously you'd separate them right away. If they do get along... let them spend a little more time. As soon as "ANY AGGRESSION" starts, separate them. You can even give them a little punishment.... Like squirt them with a water bottle. If you do squirt them with a water bottle, make sure you squirt them in the face. BTW I'm not talking about the "mist" squirt, I'm talking about the stream squirt. They need to get WET! Rats hate to be squirted in the face. Eventually they'll learn this isn't appropriate behavior.


It sounds like if you can get Tallulah and Ada to "get along", then they all might be able to "eventually" live together. This isn't something you're going to be able to fix in a day, week or even a month. This could take a few months or longer..... or it could never happen. 

As far as taking a day off from work..... If that's what you want, then do it, but..... This problem won't be solved in a day. So, it's up to you if you want time off from work. 

If you're hoping for a "quick fix"..... From what you've said, I don't see it happening.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I'd say she needs the day off to immerse the 2 new rats first, I mean it's not just the rat fighting causing an issue it's the new girl biting her when her hand is in the cage. The two new rats need to accept the owner as the alpha first which can be done in an extensive day long session (6+ hours of handling etc) and then tackle the intros. If the new rats don't respect their owner intros are definitely not going to get anywhere. Solve this problem first then do the extensive intros.


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## Kaliloca (Jan 24, 2013)

Unless I read it wrong, The "fighting rat" and the "biting rat" are the same rat. There's no mention of Quinn being a problem at all. Tallulah and Quinn are the "new rats".

The other rat that was fighting was Ada. Ada and Pinky are the two perfectly happy and non aggressive wonderful rats she had first. I doubt that Ada is the problem. Ada was most likely just "standing her ground" against the new rat, Tallulah. 

I don't think any blame or bad behavior can be put on Ada. 

Since Tallulah is the biter/fighter, she's the one that needs the most work. I think it's better to work on the most difficult one first.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Okay what gloves do you use? Because let me tell you. They bit me down to my bone. I do not see any gloves keeping me safe from those powerful jaws and teeth. 

*The Flee-ers:*
Quinn(New) Probably over 2 yrs old had 4 litters 
Pinky(Old) a yr-ish been with Ada since she was small

*The fighters:*
Ada(Old) a yr-ish
Tallulah(New) Could be older than Quinn but Quinn acts older. She is probably close to 2 yrs old. 

They came from a rescue and since they were older no one wanted to take them. They had been there for over a year. I was told they are very easy to intro because they've had new rats coming in and out of their cage for over a year and they never had any problems with them. I believe I was told Quinn liked to pick fights. Which is not the case at all. 

The first few fights it was Ada and Tallulah only fighting and drawing blood. It was FEROCIOUS. Their was no in between they were not fighting at all and then they were trying to kill eachother. I had them out together before I put the new girls in the cage for roughly 3 hours and they were fine. Some humping and puffing up but no fights. It seemed like everyone understood the new pecking order. I got them on a Saturday and I was off work the following Monday. So I was watching them in the cage for 3 days with no problems. I slept next to the cage in case anything happened during the night but it was fine. My fiance texted me on his lunch and told me they were fighting. He said they were all over the cage he couldn't tell who was who. He doesn't have anything to do with the rats so OFC he didn't care to separate them. I came home separated them and assessed the damage. A&T had 5 ish wounds each but A had more. P&Q were all clear. 

I daily took them out onto the table and let them play together. A&T would puff up Q&P were fine. It's started to be where they attack each other outside the cage. Also T left a pretty big gash on P and A went after Q so it's not just Q&A anymore. So I quit bringing them out together because I seriously thought Pinky was going to die. She had a huge gash on her ribs that was just gushing blood and wouldn't stop and I was sooo scared. She's my heart rat. :'( I did eventually get it to stop bleeding and it healed fine but I know eventually they're going to kill each other or I'm going to get bit again. 

I'm thinking I will take a day off for immersion with the new rats. Now what does this entail? Just holding them and petting them? Or what? What kind of gloves should I get to protect myself if anything does happen? Should I bring toys and play stuff or should it just be me and the rats? Small area or large area? Would my bed be okay? Otherwise the option is the kitchen table. I can't do the bathroom due to renovations.

I'm hoping that once the new rats know I'm alpha that they will intro easier with my old girls. 

I should also mention that Tallulah has two mammary tumors and Ada has one. Soooo I'm not sure that is related to their problem or not but letting it be known.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

I know, I meant that Tallulah was not only fighting Ada but also just biting at zurfaces' hand, unrelated. I just thought it would make more sense to do the immersion time with both the new rats together to kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. Even if Quinn is okay with handling it'd help her and also put Tallulah less on edge during the process. But yes, by all means she needs one on one time also but I'd do this after both the new rats are aware that zurfaces is the pack leader and alpha. I'm assuming her older rats already know this, so both the newbies must learn, even Quinn even if she's acting fine. I'd do a day with both and then one with just Tallulah, or a half/half day with the first half Quinn and Tallulah and the second half just Tallulah, so she's not having any extended breaks in that particular session (which should hopefully be 6+ hours).

I use gardening gloves, you want them nice and thick.


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

Here's a quick guide I recently wrote; it'd be good for you to try it out:

Immersion Training – What is it?
Welcome to ratclaws’ quick guide on Immersion Training, as created by forum user RAT DADDY. He is the one behind this socialisation method and many have used it with great success. I made this easy to follow guide for forum users asking about it. Make sure you follow all of these instructions; these are just the basics but should suffice for beginners. If you have young rats or babies this should only take a day, two at most. 

Note: THIS PROCESS WORKS BEST ON CALM, FRIENDLY RATS. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT ONLY FOR BABIES AND FEARLESS RATS. IT WORKS WITH ALREADY OWNED RATS TOO, IT JUST TAKES MORE TIME. BE PREPARED FOR A NERVOUS, SKITTISH RAT TO BE FEARFUL AT FIRST AND POSSIBLY BITE OUT OF FEAR. 

Why Immersion Training?
This process is designed to socialise your rats and get them comfortable with human handing. It uses rat psychology in that you, the human and owner are meant to be the “alpha rat” of the pack (the top dog, the boss, the one calling the shots). When you get a new rat, they are seeking a new ‘pack’ so to speak, and you are the new rat boss. The idea is that you welcome the rat into your pack as a rat would, by getting hands on with them and teaching them you’re in charge (albeit less violent than some dominance behaviour!). The lengthy sessions are designed to make sure your rat/s learns, and fast.

Try to do this immediately from getting new rats home, and don't let them in their cage for a few hours, only for food/drink and the toilet; get them back out after they’ve done this after about 20 minutes. Also, remove any hidey places from the cage at first. (WARNING - WEAR GLOVES IF THERE'S A FEAR OF BITING AND WEAR OLD CLOTHES YOU DON'T MIND GETTING PEED/POOPED ON. ALSO BE PREPARED FOR A LONG SESSION, THIS SHOULD TAKE AT LEAST 6 HOURS IF NOT MORE).

Things you’ll need
Your rat/s
A full day off with no other plans, or at least half a day. Possibly the weekend.
An enclosed, medium sized space such as a bathroom floor or hallway with no hidey places. A bed with no duvet or pillows on it would be the easiest, as long as your rats can’t get on the floor or onto nearby furniture.
Blankets
Treats
Food
Possibly gloves (only for very nervous rats; those that are on edge and squeak when you pick them up) and a hooded top – wear lazy clothes with sleeves if possible
Patience and an iron will


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## ratclaws (Nov 11, 2012)

THE GUIDE

1) Take the rats one by one as calmly but as firmly as possible, asserting the handler's (YOUR) dominance. This may require gloves if they bite.

2) Hold each rat close to the body and keep them cupped in with your hands so they feel secure. If they're being a bit calm lightly stroke their head and speak to them softly.

3) Take them to the enclosed space with no escape routes for them to get used to you. It would be best to pre-prepare this area with a blanket or two and some food/treats scattered about the place; not too many treats though as you'll need these later.

4) Let the rats explore the area first and foremost if it's somewhere they're not accustomed to. When they've had a sniff and a good run around, let the handling begin. Try to begin this gently when they start coming up to you and show interest.

5) Interact with them as much as possible. Firstly, place your hands flat near each rat so they can sniff and nibble at your fingers. (If wearing gloves you should do this later when the rats are calm enough to handle without) 

6) Show the rat your open hand first in front of it, so it can clearly see your hand before you touch them. At first rats see our hands as like the claws of a predator; if you show them its presence first they will act more calmly as you handle them. 

7) Pick them up and comfort them, stroke their head lightly and their bodies. It may be best to wear gloves at first if there is a fear/possibility of biting. Wearing a hooded jumper will also help so they can sit inside and be close to you; this allows them to still hide if they are getting too stressed to give them a breather.

8 ) When holding the rats, if they're kicking up a fuss it's best to try and hold them close to the body and for as long as possible. Try to comfort them and hold them until they're completely calm; most sources say it takes 20 minutes for a rat to dissipate fear. If you're wearing gloves, bites shouldn't be a problem. Only let the rat go when it is acting submissively and in a calm manner. When it's acting calm, give the rat a treat while you're still holding it so he/she associates the calm behaviour with fun and food and speak to them softly.

9) Carry this exercise out for several hours until you see some progress. It may take several sessions (depends on the severity of the behavioural issues; but for babies a day should suffice), but I stress these must be LONG and not short bursts or they will not learn. 



Persistence is the key to teach the rats the correct behaviours. If all your rats are skittish together it may be best to do an Immersion session with all of them at first so they have one another for comfort and then to have a go separately. As previously stated, this may take a few hefty sessions for really messed up rats. Think of it as rehabilitation for them. If you would like further, detailed information then please use the search box and look for ‘Immersion’ and ‘Immersion Training’. 

Introing is a completely separate procedure and your best bet is to follow the guides and watch the videos on joinrats.com. Also these may be of use:

http://ratguide.com/care/figures/problematic_introduction_figure_1.php
http://ratguide.com/care/figures/problematic_introduction_figure_2.php
[URL]http://ratguide.com/care/figures/problematic_introduction_figure_3.php[/URL]


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

I haven't started the immersion training yet but I have been trying to be more hands on with her outside the cage. So today I got off work and went straight to the cage to start my bi weekly clean out. She was awake and moving so I just started petting her and letting her sniff me before I started cleaning. She isn't puffing up and chomping on me anymore but she is doing something I think might be wresting but I'm not 100% None of my other girls have ever been interested in it so I'm not sure. She still grabs onto my fingers but it's very very gentle. I uploaded a short video but ran out of memory space. If you want to see more let me know and I'll upload. She chews on my nails a lot but all my rats do that for some reason and I think? it's pretty normal?


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## Rumy91989 (Dec 31, 2012)

Nice thread! It's definitely a good, quick companion to the Immersion thread. I feel like you have become Rat Daddy's fun sidekick!  In the best way possible.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

So I figured I'd toss a few cents in here... Ratclaws is the more method oriented of the two of us and I am more theory based. As I first introduced the procedure, getting people to understand why as well as how it works is important to me as it covers so many situations and types of rats. The practice and precise methodology is only going to expand over time so Ratclaws guide is a great practical supplement for most people doing immersions. We are also starting to get threads written during real-time immersions that will be helpful to people new to the concept. If you get lost in the theory or just lose interest in reading the whole guide, Ratclaws shorthands it for you into more of a how to manual and the online immersions can give you some idea of what the expect. For this more complex issue you definitely should not only read both of the guides, but you really should look up the old threads were I addressed screwed up biting rats specifically.

So first of all.... You do your problem rat or rats one on one! No ifs ands or buts about it! Any distraction is going to get you bit again and you can get bit bad while you are distracted by another rat, or anything else. Like taming a wild tiger, a second wild tiger in the cage isn't going to make your situation and better! The second issue is you are going to have to challenge the biter and overwhelm him... yes that means getting into his face and getting him to respect you. Now I'm not going to be too specific here but gloves, blankets and towels help and it isn't very pretty. Think if you were a real live alpha rat and some upstart bit you, what would you do? There's a fine line between aggressively establishing your alpha dominance and flat out rat abuse, I suppose it's drawn beyond what it takes to get through to your rat and causing permanent injury. But the two parameters can get pretty fuzzy on the fly.

Socializing a vicious rat is saving it's life. And not getting bit may require some rather harsh measures, but a hostile rat in your home is an insurance liability, not a pet. Extreme circumstances require extreme measures.

Once you win the brawl, your rat will submit to your alpha status and authority, then you can safely handle it and reward it's good behavior with skritches and hugs and treats to welcome it into your pack. All of your rats have to be socialized to you and part of your pack and bonded to you before you can do introductions, which you will manage hands on and referee, otherwise when you are going to get bit when you intervene in their fights. As all of your rats will acknowledge your alpha status they are less likely to fight because there's nothing to fight for.

I originally introduced immersion as a fast way to socialize relatively normal rats, but it has worked on some really screwed up ones. To be entirely honest, if you really want to save a vicious rat, you have to be prepared for things to get hairy, have a reasonably large space to work in so you have some maneuvering room in case you need it and have a great deal of courage and determination. Locking yourself in a room with a hostile rat for several hours is no small undertaking and it's certainly not without risks.

Just so we're clear... I'm not recommending you do anything, if you decide to socialize a vicious and hostile rat you are taking your own risks, neither ratclaws nor myself nor anyone else here that will help you with the process nor this website is taking on any liability for the outcome, once you are locked in that room with your rat, you are going to be very much on your own. By the way, if any minors are reading this, immersion should be done only by an adult or under adult supervision. Yes, really this can get so hairy that it comes with a liability disclaimer. So if you are brave enough to take on the challenge, remember there's no stopping until someone (hopefully you) wins. If you want to save this rat, start gathering protective clothing, gloves, safety eyewear etc and clear a full day for the experience. Also make sure you read and understand all the material available here, including the older threads on the topic and ask questions before you start. When things start to go sideways, you are not going to have time to stop and re-read anyone's posts.

Think before you commit, but if you decide to go ahead, I'm sincerely wishing you the best of luck.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I just saw the video, the rat in that video is being submissive, it doesn't look like the rat that you described at all, but better be safe than sorry.


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## phatdaddy (Feb 3, 2013)

i have had a few very agressive rats in my time, you need to be very headstrong to win them over. courage and time are the key here.


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## zurfaces (Jan 16, 2013)

Well essentially Ive just toughened up and Im not acting skittish around her anymore. Seriously before i was scared to death. She would puff up like she stuck her tail in a power socket and just chase my hand all around the cage. Id do the clip and zip is what i called it. Id get the binder clip ready clip it to the fleece and zip to the other corner across the cage. I even started putting her.on the kitchen table while i cleaned the cage but i decided to grow a pair of balls and stop being afraid. I essentially took everything id read about immersion and just bothered her in her cage everytime i walked by and if she would bite me id hold her down so she knows Im boss. I wouldnt hurt her but i think its helped. Id still like to do immersion because she isnt 100% but i feel safer putting my hands in the cage. I plan on doing immersion with all my rats at some point but ill do the two fighters first and separate. Just waiting until i can get time off. My fiance would give me a hard time if i try it on a weekend. He thinks Im insane. He got bit as well and he won't have anything to do with them now. :/ thanks Claws and daddy for the information the result i see from those individual threads is really exciting. Id love to be able to have all four of my girls out on the sofa with me all evening. They're all hurting since i got the two new girls. Breaks my heart. 



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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the first time I proposed immersion for a vicious biting rat (way before the practice even had a name) it was after someone posted a picture of a rat bite similar to the one you posted and added that he had several similar ones. And I distinctly recall thinking to myself that any sane person was more than likely never going to give it a go. The very next day, the thread changed when the same person reported that his angry hostile rat was "fixed" and was now behaving like his best friend... Well, I suppose a few reasonably justified "rat abuse" comments aside, from some folks who had good cause to doubt any new technique, immersion pretty quickly became the method of last resort and finally morphed to what it was originally intended as... a socialization method for 'normal' rats. That's why I mention the really old threads where we were working on freakshow rats.

The principles of immersion can be applied differently. As you wrote you read the guides and have had some success by asserting your status in your rats cage, and basically as you are speaking in rat to a rat, and rats are smart, it's been working too. The general guidelines however don't recommend that first because depending on the cage your hand can get trapped and you can get bit and a hostile or hormonal rat can get territorial about defending it's cage, so you are safer working where you have more running room and on neutral territory or rather your turf. As to working with a second person, my daughter has joined me and as she really has a gift for animals, the rats usually bond to her first and strongest. But I wouldn't bring her in if I had a biting rat to work with.

It's funny, some people pick up on the marathon session, other's pick up on the communication aspect, other's on the alpha rat and pack building concept. And in most cases as long as the problem is socialization related, immersion works. It's really kind of gratifying to me that so far so many rats and owners have benefited from immersion. I suppose I set immersion loose on the world less than a year ago and it's gone head to head with some very old and established methods of socializing and doing introductions, and honestly I only intended to help a few folks out with a few problem rats, so it's really fun to watch it spread and evolve. And as of about a week ago, it's the first rat socialization method, that was ever successfully done real time, live and on line.

Just be careful with any rat that bites, you have to be very aggressive with screwed up animals, but never let your guard down until your actually see and feel the animal submitting to your authority. Best luck.


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