# Immersion training useful for rats that aren't new?



## CindrDoLLy (Oct 3, 2012)

Hi all. I've been researching immersion training over the past few weeks, mostly out of curiosity. However I've noticed it seems to be recommended for brand new rats, to be used as soon as you get them home.

I was curious if there would be any benefit of using immersion training with a rat that you've had for awhile that is decently friendly, but maybe still a bit shy?

I have four girl rats and two boys. The boys have always been big loves and are extremely friendly. They love being handled and picked up and enjoy time outside of the cage. I've had them 8 months. The girls are fairly new, I've had them for about 3 months now. The girls are friendly enough, they greet me when I get home from work and like to play wrestle inside the cage and will stock pile into my hand and lick me. However when I try to take them out of the cage for free range time, they tend to get very timid, even though I've been doing the same thing every day for 3 months straight! It's like they never really get used to it, and they suddenly act like they don't trust me, even though they trust me when they're inside their cage.

Would spending more individual time with each rat in an isolated location for lengthy periods help them get over their fear of free range time? They actually DO enjoy it after awhile but will usually spend the first 10 minutes or so hiding. Then eventually they will come out of hiding and start exploring, and three of my four girls love to use a wodent wheel I leave out for them. However if I approach them and try to interact with them during free range time, they tend to run and hide. This isn't ALWAYS the case, sometimes they'll actually run up to my hand and lick me but most of the time it seems like they get scared. Anyone else experience this?

I'm just unsure if it would even really be considered "immersion training" anymore since obviously introductions are out the window...they've known who I am for quite awhile now!


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## xbexidabestx (Jun 17, 2013)

I cant help u im afraid, but I will say this is a good question!! I got some new babies to add to the pack about a month ago, they are super friendly but my older rats are aa u say yours arr, they know who I am they know I mean no harm but are slightly skittish. I look forward to the replies


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Actually an immersion might help with the girls both to show that you are in charge and to open more of a dialogue. Yes, they know you but who do you think - they think you are? If they think your the friendly next door neighbor rather than their alpha. Your relationship can be improved.

But most likely you don't need an immersion session. Pick a rat each day to work with during regular play time and reach out, stay with her play with her be as interactive as possible and try training first, call her by name make sure she comes when called give her treats and push your relationship to the next level. Try to keep working with the same rat until you make progress then start with the next one. Sometimes rats will respond as a pack and all want to interact with you once the first one does. This gets a little challenging but also a lot of fun. It's better to feel stretched thin than ignored.

Fuzzy Rat, co-founder of immersion is now more tumor than rat and can barely move under her own power. Yesterday I took her out of her cage she pointed her face towards the other room and started "walking" with her front feet trying to pull herself in that direction. As soon as I took a step in that direction, she started licking my hand which translates as "good" or "yes" and she kept pointing and licking until I reached my daughter who was playing on her computer. Then Fuzzy Rat pushed herself forwards and pointed her head down to where my daughter was sitting, as I lowered her she was licking me profusely. I placed her with my daughter who is her absolute best friend and alpha and she happily snuggled into her lap.

That's communication. Fuzzy Rat knows I'm a sentient being, she knows she can "talk" to me. She rewards me when I do the right things. Now she doesn't always want to play with me or be with me and prefers to sleep a lot and sometimes explore on her own. But she generally listens to me and I understand her. Neither of us obey too well sometimes, but that's not the point. The point is that we really know each other, I'm not just something that moves around the room under my own power and dispenses food.

So you might not need immersion at this point, but you do want to reach a point where you know your rats really do know you and you are communicating both ways. If you can't make reasonable progress with communication or training in the play setting then the immersion session will help you break through.


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## CindrDoLLy (Oct 3, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, Rat Daddy. I read your guide on immersion training before writing this post, very intriguing and useful info and it made me think. And I think you're right about the "friendly next next door neighbor" thing. Although, I get varying degrees of respect and attention from my female rats, and I think it's because I'm more in tune with certain behaviors than others. For example, two of my girls are Himilayan sisters that make it very obvious when they want to play, so it's easy for me to know when they want to hand-wrestle. They also love to climb on me (as long as its by the cage) so I'm happy to let them do that, and I can tell when they want to so I know to put my hand in front of them and keep my arm still. I feel like we communicate pretty well and that makes them interested in me.The other two girls are sisters from another litter, one is agouti capped an the other is hairless. They're a little harder for me to read. The agouti capped likes to play, but she's SO spastic that sometimes I can't tell if she's trying to play, or she's simply freaking out. She climbs on me sometimes, but needs to see the two Himilayan sisters doing it first before she's brave enough to do it herself.The hairless is probably the one I have the hardest time with. I try to hand wrestle with her, but I can't tell if she enjoys it. A lot of the time she will run away from my hand and won't come back. But sometimes, I'll wrestle with her and she'll start popcorning in place like she's excited. But she doesn't try to wrestle back with my hand most of the time, or run away then come back like my other rats, she just kinda sits there popping in place....so I can never tell if she likes it. This has made me apprehensive about playing with her, so admittedly I tend to leave her be. Twitch (hairless' name) also doesn't like being handled most of the time. The two Himilayan sisters are very good about being picked up and will let their bodies go limp in my hands. Twitch usually starts squirming and tries desperately to get out of my hands when I pick her up. She has almost injured herself a few times trying to get away so again, I'm apprehensive about picking her up too much. Twitch isn't completely unfriendly though, she's just...super particular? I have been able to pick her up without a fuss a few times, and she has groomed my hands and climbed around on me, but it seems like I have to catch her in a certain "mood". She's honestly just a very odd-seeming rat, like she tries to be a normal rat but is "off" somehow. I will also add, she is missing her eyesight in one eye after a corneal abrasion when she was a baby caused the eye to rupture. I also wonder if Twitch and Poppy (the agouti capped sister) are just not as prone to being friendly in general due to some genetic disposition. The girl I got them from let me meet the momma rat, and the momma herself was a huge spaz. I also know that particular litter resulted in two runts (Twitch was one of them) and a third boy who was born blind. I'm thinking maybe they're just genetically "off" somehow? But I don't want that to be an excuse to not have the best relationship with them possible.Anyway, most of this is just me thinking out loud. A question for you Rat Daddy, when I play with a singular rat during free range time, should I limit how many toys and hiding places are available? I have a feeling Twitch in particular would just hide and not come out if she had the option.


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## CindrDoLLy (Oct 3, 2012)

Also I'm sorry that came out as one long blurb, I had written it in paragraph form to make it easier to read but whenever I post to the forum from my phone, it ignores the formatting for some reason.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

You have hit on something that really is normal for people when they deal with animals, but something we would do exactly the opposite with children.

If you have a child that was reclusive or tweaky, you would redouble your efforts and do whatever it takes to get him or her socialized, with an animal you give them space and tend to leave them alone more, which in turn has them getting more reclusive and tweaky.

My best advise is keep working on your less social rats. Just like children you put your best efforts into the problem child. All rats need to feel that they belong.

That said, rats have personalities. I can fairly guarantee you some aren't ever going to be as affectionate as others, or as smart and some are even going to have personalities that get on your nerves. Yup, some people even have kids they don't get along with. As your rat's mom your try your hardest and make the best out of what and who you have to work with. 

I've met several moms with autistic kids that swear they have a bond of love, I'm pretty sure the kid couldn't assemble two lego's, but as to the bond, somewhere down deep I'm thinking that in most cases it's real. And as long as mom keeps trying, I suppose there's hope for improvement.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

As to toys and hiding places.. if your doing immersion or working on building your bond you want to be as hands on as possible. You can use the toys to interact with your rats as in roll them the ball etc. As to hiding places, if they are bouncing back and forth to them between playing with you that's fine. If their idea of play is to hide under the fridge for 4 hours that's not going to help in bonding. You are there and you make the call. Just think of your rats as small children you are working with and you won't go wrong.


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## CindrDoLLy (Oct 3, 2012)

Thanks a bunch Rat Daddy. I've been spending more time with Twitch specifically despite not being able to tell what sort of mood she's in. I think the main problem is with kids, you can at least tell them with words that you're trying to be apart of their lives...it's harder to do that with rats, of course. I worry if I smother her too much when she doesn't want to be bothered that it will make her withdraw from me more...but I'm anoticing a bit of an improvement with her already. I've just been picking her up as much as possible and setting her down without holding her for too long. I've been wrestling with her too and she hasn't been hiding. So far, so good


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## RagingShadow (Jun 20, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> I'm pretty sure the kid couldn't assemble two lego's,


um, not to get off topic, but most autistic kids have average to above average intelligence and, as an autistic person, this is kind of offensive. but anyways...

sorry to hear that Fuzzy isn't doing too hot and good luck to OP with the training!


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

Apologies RangingShadows,

I have a client that's autistic and he owns and manages a very successful accounting practice. My friends son is "high functioning" autistic as well. I regret I'm a little too old to have a very well tuned PC filter and considered neither person before I poorly chose the global term "autistic". I live in a town with a very large chemical industry and we see many autistic children around here that are way less fortunate than yourself. We generally use the term 'autistic' to refer to them. For the past two years Fuzzy Rat has been entertaining at the handicapped children's picnic. She's pretty popular with many handicapped children, but the children I was thinking of are "very low functioning" autistic and really can't assemble two legos. Locally there seems to be a myth that low functioning autistic children can be benefited by handling small animals so we are often sought out by the parents of such children and for the most part these kids can't come close to an active rat, despite their parent's encouragement and the few that can are a serious danger to a friendly rat. Higher functioning autistic children and other handicapped children really do well with rats. And even when certain children can't speak, their moms feel a strong bond. And yes I do believe that as long as the moms keep the faith the kids can be helped.

So I'm sorry for a remark that could easily be taking to be both general and sweeping. Autism is a very wide spectrum diagnosis I was only referring to a very small and narrow band therein. I certainly had no intention of including the many shades of personalities that we used to consider quirky and others that are high functioning or socially functional. 

So my bad, no offense intended. Like I said sometimes I'll just choose a word that's convenient off the top of my head rather than try to find a more correct term. I'm not even sure 'low functioning' is still the correct term for the severe cases. 

If you would be so kind, I would appreciate an update on the terminology if you are current on the subject. It would be nice to know so I don't accidentally offend someone else.

Thanks for understanding.


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## RagingShadow (Jun 20, 2013)

Rat Daddy said:


> Apologies RangingShadows,
> 
> I have a client that's autistic and he owns and manages a very successful accounting practice. My friends son is "high functioning" autistic as well. I regret I'm a little too old to have a very well tuned PC filter and considered neither person before I poorly chose the global term "autistic". I live in a town with a very large chemical industry and we see many autistic children around here that are way less fortunate than yourself. We generally use the term 'autistic' to refer to them. For the past two years Fuzzy Rat has been entertaining at the handicapped children's picnic. She's pretty popular with many handicapped children, but the children I was thinking of are "very low functioning" autistic and really can't assemble two legos. Locally there seems to be a myth that low functioning autistic children can be benefited by handling small animals so we are often sought out by the parents of such children and for the most part these kids can't come close to an active rat, despite their parent's encouragement and the few that can are a serious danger to a friendly rat. Higher functioning autistic children and other handicapped children really do well with rats. And even when certain children can't speak, their moms feel a strong bond. And yes I do believe that as long as the moms keep the faith the kids can be helped.
> 
> ...


thank you for the apology

I suppose that "low functioning" is still the used term, I prefer severe myself as functioning (which is generally defined by speech and self care skills) can radically fluctuate on a day to day basis. just adding some sort of modifier to "autistic" would probably be a good idea (ie non verbal, mild, autism spectrum etc) sense it is such a wide spectrum, ranging from people like me who are high functioning to people like my cousin who is totally non verbal (but not non communicative).
I get that it was convenient and I was just more annoyed with the generalization. The people I interact with seem to view view everyone with autism as Rainman.


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## Rat Daddy (Sep 25, 2011)

I understand. Fuzzy Rat and myself have spent many hours working with handicapped children and their parents. A particular image comes to mind of Fuzzy Rat stealing a severely autistic child's cup cake and hanging on to it while he was holding her by the tail. Luckily fast hands and quick thinking saved the rat and the child's mom didn't want the cup cake back so Fuzzy Rat wound up doing pretty well for herself.

But most severely autistic children can't interact with a rat. Rats move too fast and unpredictably. I've had parents of severely autistic children follow me around for hours with their kids in tow. Usually the children (mostly boys) cling on to their moms and watch Fuzzy Rat from a distance of about 15 feet, sometimes more. Oddly some of these severely autistic children will stalk us (parents in tow) but not approach us and they absolutely never touch. When their moms try to get them to touch Fuzzy Rat most freak out. The boy who snagged Fuzzy Rat by the tail was somewhat verbal and rather quick with his hands. We've only met a couple higher functioning autistic kids, possibly more because they are often hard to identify and they actually did well with Fuzzy Rat cuddling her and rocking for long periods of time. Down syndrome kids on the other hand are very interested and really enjoy meeting Fuzzy Rat. 

As a true shoulder rat, Fuzzy Rat was the only rat I would introduce to handicapped kids. She was calm and confident and loved the attention and she tolerated rough handling well. Naturally in her condition she doesn't get out much anymore. I can honestly see where a rat like Fuzzy Rat might make for a great pet for a higher functioning autistic child, in fact I've seen how well a couple of them interacted with her. But sadly, for severely autistic kids I don't think rats or any other small animals are likely to cause any meaningful breakthroughs. But again I'd like to be wrong.

Again sorry for my poor choice of words, I really did know better, but shorthanded my remark anyway and unfairly. And thank you for the terminology update. I hope I've got it right now.


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